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Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Aarp65 disruptively creating categories and pages about names

I became aware of User:Aarp65 just a few minutes ago when they added "Category:Surnames of Vanuatuan origin" to Jimmy. I noticed that this category page was also added to David (surname) and John (surname) which are of biblical origin, and George (surname) which states that it has many origins, none of them Vanuatuan.

I then noticed that Aarp65 had put "Category:Surnames of Marshall Islands origin" on Joseph (surname), Peter (surname), Philip and Samuel (name).

The next thing I noticed is that for the past two months, User talk:Aarp65's talkspace is filled with at least 25 mostly successful speedy deletion nominations for creating categories and other pages. More pages have been moved to draftspace as suitable and several disrupted editing warnings posted by User:Uricdivine, User:Leschnei, User:Joy, User:Pppery and especially User: Liz.

As far as I can tell, Aarp65 does not state reasons or cite sources for the creation of so many of these pages. Probably because they are factually incorrect. In my opinion, this user is WP:NOTHERE to create an encyclopedia. Warnings have already been given, so if the consensus agrees, I propose a discussion about the possibility of a WP:TBAN on creating categories and pages having to do with names and surnames, etc. for this user. The exact topic could be decided later. I hope this makes sense. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks. Kire1975 (talk) 17:39, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Clearly, Aarp65 knows a lot about this topic and most of their contributions are very productive. I take back my WP:NOTHERE accusation but these categories and 25 warnings in 2 months are genuinely concerning. I'm going to try to talk to them more about it in their talkspace. Nothing urgent needs to be immediately addressed by others here, but I don't think it should be closed until a response can be had. Again, suggestions welcome. Thanks. Kire1975 (talk) 18:27, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

(non-admin comment) Jimmy is a DAB page. Regardless of the merits or otherwise of adding such a category to surname pages, it should not be added to a DAB page per WP:DBC. Narky Blert (talk) 02:09, 27 October 2022 (UTC) It's either too late or too early. Origin-type categories are fine (indeed, recommended) on DAB pages also categorised as surname or given name pages. Narky Blert (talk) 02:54, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I have reverted a whole bunch of their recent edits, as they were indeed bizarre and non-constructive. Things like this, this, this, or this are just some samples of the type of edits. If they don't or inadequately reply, a topic ban from categorisation (or name categorisation) may be needed. I mean, on a long disambig where none of the entries are for Samoans, they still proclaiml that the name "Meredith" is of Samoan origin.[1]... Fram (talk) 09:05, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Considering that this is continuing while this section is open, with Raisi (disambiguation) created today and added to e.g. Category:Zimbabwean surnames despite nothing on that page relating to Zimbabwe; can please some action be taken? Letting someone continue to add such fake information to Wikipedia while this iss being discussed at ANI doesn't look good (on us, and even less on them). Fram (talk) 14:03, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I've DABified Raisi (disambiguation) (which was a needed page) and deleted the Zimbabwean category as unsupported. Narky Blert (talk) 15:00, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Any suggestions on how to avoid or minimize further such issues? The editor involved seems unwilling to join any discussion about it, giving little hope of improvemeñt. Fram (talk) 15:16, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

For a specific problem like this, the time-honoured solution is digging through contribs, and if necessary following the usual escalation procedures aimed at persuading or forcing nuisances to stop. I have no solution to the more general one of under-, excessive, or over-precise categorisation of DAB-with-surname and surname pages other gnomishly than fix when found. (A moderately common case of over-precision is labelling a Germanic surname as specifically Jewish/Yiddish when it is not specific to that community. Bernstein and Kahn (an unusual case with two distinct etymologies) are models of how it should be done.) Narky Blert (talk) 05:25, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Another strange DAB creation: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wodarz&oldid=1118543166 (current version) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:48, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

That was a weird one; notably in the mismatch between title (Wodarz) and lede (Holetschek). It has already, and correctly, been WP:BLARed into an {{R from surname}} page. Holetschek exists, and is another recent creation by Aarp65; a good one, which I've minorly tweaked. Narky Blert (talk) 05:36, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

I just added a Level 3 warning before I noticed Fram's proposal below. He's definitely been warned. Kire1975 (talk) 11:49, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

And another bizarre edit: Ranseier was redirected to Karl Ranseier, which itself is a redirect to RTL Samstag Nacht. No reasons given. Kire1975 (talk) 08:54, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

And this: why does "Category:Malagasy given names" exist? Even if it had more than one entry, Aarp65 should at least give a reason for it? Every new page gets added to his impressive list of "Written pages" created on his username. Kire1975 (talk) 08:59, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• It looks like User:Joe Roe granted Aarp65 the autopatrolled status. And a quick review of Joe's talk page, it looks like he has a history of ignoring ANI discussions as the discussion on his talk page from 18 days ago indicated. There is an active ANI discussion right now that has User:Bishonen pinging Joe Roe to find out why he hasn't responded. Perhaps we should be exploring possibility of removing Joe's ability to grant autopatrol status. Kire1975 (talk) 11:48, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Kire1975: A "history"? Please don't be ridiculous. I am one of the most active admins at WP:PERM/A (at times I've been the only person responding to request there), and I've granted autopatrolled to about 100 editors. As far as I know, the three incidents you mentioned are the only problems that have arisen. I participated fully in the first ANI thread. I had no way of knowing about this one, since I wasn't pinged and I don't have ANI on my watchlist. The third thread, below, was started on Saturday evening in my timezone, and autopatrolled was pulled by Sunday morning (also when Bish pinged me). I have no problem with that "error rate", and in any case, I can only grant or refuse to grant autopatrolled based on the criteria agreed by the community, which I have been trying to get tightened for years. – Joe (talk) 12:53, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  Unless evidence can be provided that the three editors were demonstrably problematic at the time the permissions were granted, I don't think its fair to point fingers at the admin who granted a right for any issues that occurred after the right was granted. Lots of editors don't demonstrate problematic actions until well after permissions have been granted, and that says nothing about the person granting the permission. - Aoidh (talk) 22:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Proposal: topic ban (user:Aarp65)

I propose that Aarp65 is topic banned from all name-related pages (articles, categories, templates...) broadly construed. Their recently granted autopatrolled right should also be removed again. They have been warned about their problematic edits in the past. During the above discussion, they created Lipovsky (disambiguation), with 4 completely unsupported categories, created multiple unnecessary name disambiguation pages (with only one bluelink), added name categories unrelated to the contents of the page they were placed on ([2]), and so on. They show no indication of changing their approach or participating in this (or any) discussion. Expecting other editors to check all their edits and revert this many of them is not useful. Fram (talk) 08:14, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Their recently granted autopatrolled right was removed once before? I'm not sure what that is or where to find evidence of that. Can you put that in the discussion please? Thanks. Kire1975 (talk) 11:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

No, originally they (like everyone else) didn't have it, it was granted in June or so, and should now be removed again. Fram (talk) 12:11, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

The "again" is the problem, it suggests that it has been removed before. 66.44.22.126 (talk) 12:59, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

It's a colloquialism in some American regional dialects. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:15, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I know -- Kire1975 misunderstood Fram, and Fram didn't understand the nature of the misunderstanding, but at this point I'm pretty sure everyone understands everyone else or doesn't care. 128.164.177.55 (talk) 19:48, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Support: Aarp65 does seem to have some expertise in the field, or at least a lot of experience working on this topic, but the prominence of the multiple "Veteran Editor" badges in their infobox makes me think they might be just trying to create so many tiny little name pages and DAP's so they can bulk up their numbers to increase their "rank" like this is a video game. Of course, all we can do is speculate on what they're doing because they are ignoring so many warnings and invitations to participate in this ANI discussion. I don't want them to be TBAN'd but what else is there left to do? It's disruptive, not productive and makes a lot of work for other editors to fix. Kire1975 (talk) 14:06, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

• No opinion on the topic ban at this time, but I see enough valid concern from editors in the section above that I've gone ahead and pulled the autopatrol permission. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:43, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support - They have not responded on their talk page or here about the valid concerns raised, and are instead continuing to create these articles with the same issues, for example Nganga (surname) was created just a few minutes ago, and these categories were added to an article that in no way supports those categories. Since this discussion has opened they have not used a single talk page of any kind, but have updated their user page well over a dozen times since then. There's absolutely nothing wrong with displaying pages you've worked on, but it's not okay to ignore the basic concepts of collaboration and verifiability in that pursuit. - Aoidh (talk) 22:24, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

...and it's still going. No discussion or addressing the issues, but they're still adding to their trophy case. - Aoidh (talk) 23:01, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support Aarp65 has also created many navigation templates about names. He clearly just dumped names in there, without checking where the links were going. Request to fix links to disambiguation pages went unanswered and seeing that he is still doing this, something has to be done. I can't see if (s)he ever responded on talkpages. The Banner talk 12:39, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Still ongoing, [3]. Not only the randomness of the cats, but even the bizarre placement of the two cats, all creates extra work for others from an editor who has absolutely zero inclination to adjust their approach or to discuss the concerns. Can this please be enacted? Fram (talk) 12:41, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support ongoing problematic behaviour, with no intention of stopping or listening to other editors. A topic ban would seem very much necessary. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:34, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Utterly horrendously written articles from an auto patrolled user

• MoviesandTelevisionFan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have come across this user's articles and they are horrendously written. The English is awful and completely broken. I am unable to even attempt to make corrections to some of these articles. Sure English isn't everyone's native language, but this user for some reason has auto patrolled rights, meaning the articles he's creating are not even being checked or reviewed properly. How Wikipedia can allow this is astounding, there should be a basic level of English required before such articles are published. Two examples of poorly written articles that I cannot even attempt to try and fix: David Mark Hill and Samuel Hartsel. The Hill article did not even correctly name the execution method which I had to correct: [4]. There are many more. Please can an admin review. Inexpiable (talk) 20:04, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

• FYI, you need to post a notice on a user's talk page when starting a discussion about them at ANI. I've posted the notice on MATF's talk page. Levivich (talk) 20:15, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I usually find that the non-native English users are better than the native editors whose English is just bad. The former are usually happy to be corrected but the latter often take great offence at anything that could be construed as criticism of their writing. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:25, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Those are indeed practically unreadable and would definitely have benefitted from an NPPer tagging them with the copyedit template. JoelleJay (talk) 20:30, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree that their prose is atrocious, and that their autopatrolled status should be revoked. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:45, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree - WP:CIR. Very inappropriate for them to be an auto-patroller. DeCausa (talk) 20:57, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

• Joe Roe gave the user the AP right last year. I'm reluctant to revoke the right without Joe's views.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:52, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
• Folks, before we discuss removing perms or any sanction, perhaps we could give our colleague the opportunity to respond first? AFAIK, this ANI thread is the first time these problems have been raised? It's kind of rude to jump straight to talk of sanctions without even talking to the user first, particularly when it's someone who has donated thousands of hours here. Before any of the rest of us give our opinion, shouldn't we hear what MATF has to say first? Levivich (talk) 21:27, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
• Three comments. First, we should definitely allow MATF to respond before any further steps are discussed. Second, please remember that the AP flag isn't really a right; while some stigma likely attaches to its removal, fundamentally it exists to benefit reviewers and readers, and has no benefit to the holder. Third, I would like to hear from MATF whether they have used machine translation to assist them at any point; some of the phraseology strikes me as similar to the meaninglessness that google sometimes produces. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:37, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

• I agree that hearing from the editor for clarification is a good idea, but I also agree that revoking their autopatrolled status is called for and shouldn't be dependent on it. First stop the problem, then discuss with the editor. Their status can easily be changed back if it appears to be warranted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:58, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

• MATF has created 1,152 articles. I just spent a half-hour 45 minutes fixing a relatively simple one, John Harllee (admiral). If that's typical, we're talking about volunteers spending something like 500 800 hours cleaning up after their mess. That's a problem that's significant enough to warrant acting first, and listening to explanations later. Please, would some admin remove their autopatrolled flag? Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:30, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

  There appear to be some major content issues here. For example, the article Talmadge L. Heflin states

  In 1983, Heflin won the election for the 149th district of the Texas House of Representatives. He was honored by the Alief Independent School District which it was renamed as the Talmadge L. Heflin Elementary School.

  The source [5] however states

  Mr. Heflin served on the Board of Trustees of the Alief Independent School District from 1973 to 1980. In 1982, the district honored his service to the area with the opening of Talmadge L. Heflin Elementary School.

  The article implies that he was honoured for winning the election, rather than because he served on the board of trustees, falsely states that something was "renamed" when it was actually a new school being opened, implies the school naming occurred after the election in 1983 when it actually took place in 1982 and it confusingly suggests that the school district turned into a elementary school somehow. There are other examples of exceptionally poor writing,

  In 1980, Heflin was apart of an election, in which it had involved being unsuccessful against Georgia's United States senator Mack Mattingly.

  Is an extremely convoluted and confused way of saying he lost an election, which somehow avoids actually telling us what the election was. The article is also full of grammatical errors and nonsensical sentences, MOS issues ("politician" and "business" should not be linked), and a plethora of categories that are not verified in the article text - the article contains no information on his involvement in the energy business, his religious beliefs or his non-fiction writing.

  @Beyond My Ken perhaps it would looking into running a bot to unpatrol their article creations after they were granted the right? 192.76.8.88 (talk) 23:33, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

• I'm continuing to look to their articles, and indeed you are correct that grammar and construction errors are the least of the problems; the information itself has in many cases been corrupted. I would suggest that all of their articles be moved to draftspace, where they can be worked on without being generally accessible to the public. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:40, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Beyond My Ken: Are they actively creating bad articles without responding here? If not, removal isn't urgent, though I agree it's likely to be warranted. AP removal isn't retroactive; any articles they've created would still need to be manually reviewed. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:50, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

They don't seem to have edited since last night. I understand the principal of not acting unless there is a need to stop ongoing activity, but I think the need here is obvious enough (as I continue to review their articles) that lifting the flag is warranted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:53, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

• I agree with the editors above that the issues here go beyond spelling and grammar errors. I attempted to copyedit David Mark Hill before giving up in frustration. At the time I found it, the article stated He had his own The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints church. This was sourced to [6], which says The Hills' Mormon church helped pay their mortgage, utilities and groceries - obviously that doesn't mean that he ran a church!
  The next paragraph is extremely convoluted, difficult to understand and leaves out important context: Hill had began to act as a spree killer after receiving a notice from his wife to file a divorce against him. He was involved in some murders which had resulted three people being killed, in which he was suspected that Hill was the murderer since he had visited a department of social office. It was stated that he also assaulted a person which was his daughter. He killed them since it was for taking his children away from him, in which there was a restraining order against Hill. The actual story, from [7], is Hill went on the shooting spree in North Augusta after his wife asked for a divorce and a social worker accused him of molesting a child. He lost custody of his children and blamed state workers. Killed were case worker Jimmy Riddle, 52; Josie Curry, 35; and Michael Gregory, 30.
  I can understand why autopatrolled was granted because many of their articles are brief stubs where these issues with writing coherently aren't as apparent (e.g. Nicolas Becker (sound engineer), Andy Lewis (screenwriter)). However, considering the factual errors and general incomprehensiblity of their longer creations I don't think it is appropriate for them to hold this right. Spicy (talk) 00:21, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• Did the admin who granted them this permission actually review any of their work? Every single article I’ve checked so far has been plagued with the above mentioned content issues. Now I’m seeing that they’ve created over 1000 articles? This has the potential to be a massive problem. 2604:2D80:6A8D:E200:FC3F:FA47:1CA0:2CF8 (talk) 00:02, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

  I thought the same, but then looking at their page creations before they were granted the autopatrolled right, a lot were stubs with short sentences or lists of films/shows obscuring their language deficiencies. So if Joe just looked at a handful of the stubs on Academy Award winners he wouldn't have noticed anything egregious. The typos and sentence construction chaos are only really apparent when MATF attempts to expand beyond a stub. Perhaps in the case of serial (notable, sourced) stub creators AP grantors should look for any larger page creations/expansions by the user to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen. JoelleJay (talk) 00:26, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• Remove the user right. There is sufficient evidence presented here. Additionally require that all future articles from this editor are created as a draft. Per Beyond My Ken: First stop the problem, then discuss with the editor. Donating thousands of hours here has never been a hurdle to stripping of special rights if the content quality is a serious problem and creating unnecessary work for others. Furthermore, autopatrolled is the one right that accords absolutely no benefits to the user whatsoever other than giving them another hat to wear. NPP has been acutely aware of the abuse of the auto patrolled right for a very long time. Their best suggestion to date is to deprecate this user right which having become a contentious issue has already been recently removed from the sysop bundle. To suggest that it would increase the workload of the reviewers (the usual contra argument) would be a straw man - articles of the quality expected by auto patrolled users only take a second or two to review. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:25, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• I agree with removal of AP as the first step. Per WP:AUTOPAT, "Autopatrolled is a user right given to prolific creators of clean articles". It's quite clear that this editor is not producing "clean articles". I just spot-checked six very quickly and could not identify any major problem without comparing them with the sources. But 5/6 need a copyedit cleanup minimally, with things like Born in Bentonville, Arkansas. (The sixth was a two-line stub). MB 01:14, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

According the autopatrolled right based on a random look at a few stubs (if that's what happened) is not the best way to go. Stubs, however clean they might be, are not sufficient to demonstrate a thorough knowledge of the requirements for producing a fully fleshed out article. I do recall that mass creating stubs to obtain the autopatrolled right has been deliberately used in the past by users with a specific agenda. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:34, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

If there's an agenda here, I haven't glommed on to it yet. The articles I've reviewed and fixed so far are about minor politicians and officials, both Democrat and Republican; the encyclopedia would not be affected in any significant way if they were all moved to draft to be worked on.

The problems I've seen are misrepresentation of what sources say (apparently because of misunderstanding), stilted writing, incorrect use of idiomatic constructions (especially in the use of prepositions), convoluted and awkward phrasings, use of infobox parameters that don't exist, nonsensical facts (such as a legislator being suceeded by three people), categorization not supported by text in the article (almost as if MATF has personal knowledge they're using), inclusion of unnecessary information, failure to update information from more recent sources (a person is reported to have 4 brothers, but a correction in the same newspaper changes it to 3 brothers; both sources are cited, but the article still said 4 brothers until I corrected it), etc., all of which are, I think, neither deliberate nor malign, but nevertheless result in sloppy articles that are well below the expected standard. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:43, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

They're also creating these articles pretty quickly - 7 articles yesterday, 10 articles on the 16th, 11 articles on the 15th. No indication of automation or anything like that, but from the results, they don't seem to be spending any significant amount of time crafting them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:20, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

So, is everybody waiting for the user and/or Joe Roe to weigh in here..? I've removed the autopatrolled right. Bishonen | tålk 08:14, 30 October 2022 (UTC).

Thank you. I hope we'll hear from the editor soon. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:24, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

There are two active ANI discussions right now regarding users granted autopatrol rights by User:Joe Roe making bizarre and disruptive edits. It also appears in his talk page from 18 days ago that he intends to ignore ANI discussions? Looks like he had a spot of trouble regarding a third autopatrolled user here. Kire1975 (talk) 11:58, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I am not "ignoring ANI discussions". I haven't been editing for a few days, and by the time I saw the pings in this thread, it had already run its course and I didn't have anything to add. WP:AGF, please. – Joe (talk) 12:33, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• Going to weigh in here briefly on some of the articles; I'm the one that's moved a few articles of MATF from a temp page to mainspace. However, I don't have AP, so all of those pages went through NPP regardless of MATF having AP at the time. The work I've seen from MATF is rewriting bad Billy Hathorn content; crap that's already got a plethora of issues beyond just copyright, and how copyright rewrites are usually done is by simply taking the content and rewriting it, not remaking an article entirely from scratch. We usually only check for copyright issues; we're not NPP 2.0. Regardless, I find the other problems troubling, but I don't think that we should be jumping to sanctions beyond AP revoking just yet. Sennecaster (Chat) 19:49, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Side discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:24, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Five questions: (1) Is some entity trying to use WP as an AI learning tool? (2) Is this an effort to discredit/disrupt WP? (3) What methods/tools can be used/invented to monitor these events (which will probably increase)? (4) Why did I receive and emailed link to this discussion? I am not an Admin and have no special privileges here (as far as I know). (5) Am I eligible for AP status? FINALLY: why did this page disappear a few minutes ago when I tried to post the above? WEIRD! Shir-El too 13:22, 30 October 2022 (UTC) If you received an e-mail with a link to this discussion, why don't you ask the editor who e-mailed you why. Your other questions make no sense.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:56, 30 October 2022 (UTC) @Bbb23Bbb23: the sender was wiki@wikimedia.org! The other three questions make sense if you view this problem as a possible trend, not just an isolated incident, and make good sense in an era of 'fake news', 'fake images' etc. Wikipedia may be this planet's best source of free, relatively unbiased information, which some minds can't stand: it makes them vulnerable. The 5th question is now moot; I looked it up and don't want it. All the Best! Shir-El too 15:00, 30 October 2022 (UTC) @Shir-El too: I can answer that last question: it's because you added your comments to a version of this page from ~6 hours ago, effectively reverting to it. Then Beshogur reverted you. I'm guessing the email you received included a linked DIFF instead of a link to the current discussion, like this: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Utterly horrendously written articles from an auto patrolled user. Woodroar (talk) 14:23, 30 October 2022 (UTC) Thank you! Cheers! Shir-El too 15:01, 30 October 2022 (UTC) Three answers: (1) Is some entity trying to use WP as an AI learning tool? No. It bears very few of the hallmarks of AI article writing; also you'd not teach an AI how to learn by having it do something else. (2) Is this an effort to discredit/disrupt WP? No. There are far better ways of doing both. Writing crappy articles is a function of this being an encyclopedia anyone can edit and goes with the territory. The cock-up theory is always better than the conspiracy theory. (3) What methods/tools can be used/invented to monitor these events (which will probably increase)? Very few, even assuming we could do anything. In this particular case, not granting the Auto-Patrolled right would've made discovering this annoying-but-minor (in the scheme of things) event happen earlier. It wouldn't've prevented it because anything that prevents this type of thing also prevents people from creating good articles too. — Trey Maturin has spoken 16:27, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

I know this is late but this is the evidence that I will provide: For Vanamonde's third comment, I write the articles in my own words and I don't use a machine translation unless I have to which I would use it for the articles that's in other different Wikipedia languages that included Àngel Casas. I would say that with my writing, I would change up my words with searching up another word to "insert word here" in a website, where I would use that word instead. With the Talmadge L. Heflin, I didn't mean that the school was renamed after him when he won the election but I don't know since like sometimes I don't notice. I didn't see anything wrong with my writing. The article Talmadge L. Heflin was a rewrite to get rid of Billy Hathorn's copyright version along with Teel Bivins and Flip Mark. You'll notice when I create them rewrites, I put recreated without copyright and what I do is I copy the categories from the archive version of Hathorn's to make it easier. Then I write it with using the cited sources in my own words. If I'm not editing in like a Saturday or for a few days then I'm like away from the computer since like I'm in somewhere else and while I'm away, I write articles in my Google Docs and then when I finally come home, I would copy-paste then fix it and then make some changes but this is how I write and with Hathorn's writing I use them but I avoid its copyright and make it my own words, but I will mention that I am a Spanish speaker but I do better in English.

With the David Mark Hill edit with the church removal I saw, it had said The Hills Mormon Church which would have meant he had his own church and with the Mormon church link it had redirected to the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article, in which its also known as Mormon church. With the sentence in the Talmadge F. Heflin article, "In 1980, Heflin was apart of an election, in which it had involved being unsuccessful against Georgia's United States senator Mack Mattingly" (which is already removed), well I didn't know what election it was but I included it since it was sourced but I don't entirely have access to newspapers.com articles but just stuff that's already clipped, like I clip another thing since there is something clipped in the article and so on, I only have the free version of it. That newspaper article came up while I searched up Talmadge Heflin and it had mentioned the surname Heflin and I just took it as a ref. I didn't mean to cause disruption with my writing but if the community says there are issues with my articles then I would like to fix it if the community gives me a chance to improve it and see what they think. I just include info that's already sourced and just add them, which I saw with the Sally Wheeler article.

With the Neil Haven Klock article, I’m gonna revert some stuff until consensus is made because according to the Louisiana House Members source it says who preceded, served alongside and succeeded him but Beyond My Ken goes along with the obituary, but the Louisiana House Members verifies that he served as a member of the legislative with other info too. It didn't say he left office during 1942 other than the obituary, since it says his term ended in 1944 and the legislative keeps the correct track of the members and years when I see it and it's verifiable. Klock was succeeded by three people according to the Louisiana House Members pdf, even in the archive version of the article, it says that he was succeeded by three people and it was sourced so I added it and just went along with verifiable Louisiana Members pdf, this is an answer to the nonsensical facts thing that has "such as a legislator being suceeded by three people". With T. J. Hooks, I’m gonna revert more stuff too until consensus is made since Hooks served along with E. A. Wilson for which they had both represented Lake. He and Wilson were succeeded by two people, according to the Florida House Membership. The one that Beyond My Ken decided that could stay is William A. Hocker, a politician who has a blue link and was succeeded by Hooker. Also there is this reason that they said was "They're also creating these articles pretty quickly - 7 articles yesterday, 10 articles on the 16th, 11 articles on the 15th. No indication of automation or anything like that.", well those articles were created normally, since it was because I created them in google docs when I didn't edit for a week so I copy-pasted them and made them into Wikipedia articles when I came back and had lots I made in google docs and I still have some leftovers that includes Donald Jonas, Vernon Peeples, Bob Terhune and many others too.

Well now I see Beyond My Ken states that "I created seven articles yesterday" which was the (27th-28th), well the first two were from Google Docs, the third-fifth were Billy hathorn's rewrites since I was gonna be gone and I took my time into writing them and the Georgia's politicians stubs were created easily since I couldn’t find anything else but I found information in the pdf so I used it since it was SOURCED. Then I left to go somewhere else. The 16th had ten articles they say and most of them were from my Google Docs and some like Barry Oringer and William Wood (screenwriter) were created instantly. The article Taky Marie-Divine Kouamé was created when I woke up, since she won a medal in a notable event and had coverage too. The article Bo Callaway was recreated since it was gonna remove lot of stuff except the beginning so I rewrote it without copyright, that I'm adding more info. The 15th is when I came back, since I started off with Andy Detwiler who I written in my google docs and then the rest I wrote in google docs mostly. This is all I could say if it makes sense. MoviesandTelevisionFan (talk) 19:47, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

I really hate to say it, but WP:Competence is required, and MaTF's long comment above speaks volumes about their lack of competence in writing acceptable English (as well as some basic misunderstandings about American electoral procedures); I won't embarrass them by pointing out the many basic errors it contains.

I believe that it is necessary for the following actions to be taken:

1. Move all the articles listed here to draft space. Editors who have fixed any of MaTF's creations can move them back into article space, and reviewers can whittle away at the rest of the list over time.

2. Topic ban MaTF from creating articles more complex than the most basic stub (their stub articles seem to be OK) or extensively re-writing existing articles. I'm not quite sure how such a TB would be phrased, but I do think it's necessary. They can continue to do other non-textual work around Wikipedia - there's plenty of that to be done that doesn't require extensive ability to write acceptable English. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:58, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

But can I try improving my articles like I've seen many copyedits in my articles, but can I get a chance to fix them and then see what the community thinks. MoviesandTelevisionFan (talk) 20:06, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• MATF, that manner of paraphrasing sources is completely inappropriate. You need to understand what the source has said, and construct your own sentences summarizing that material. If you carry out word-for-word replacements, you're going to alter the meaning of the text and produce incomprehensible content, and you're also not avoiding copyright issues at all. If you're not using machine translation, and English is your native language, I'm sorry to say I don't know what advice to offer you; but you need to be able to understand the sources you're using, and if you lack the ability to do Wikipedia isn't the best hobby for you.
  I don't think a TBAN will achieve anything here: the issue appears to be with any non-trivial content. Either MATF can fix this approach; possibly be reducing the speed at which they work, and by taking the time to understand what they're reading and writing; or they can't, in which case, what are they doing on Wikipedia? I would suggest that MATF be required to work on and fix any five articles of their choosing from among their creations, and if they can address the issues here, we can work out a system of probation. If they're unwilling or unable to do so, we need to consider a site-ban. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:44, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't care about the AP role but I just want to still create articles, but I need to improve the others first. Can someone check how I did with James Sturch. MoviesandTelevisionFan (talk) 20:36, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

@MoviesandTelevisionFan: Your changes to James Sturch were improvements as far as they went, but another user (Larry Hockett) still had to make further changes, correcting some pretty basic errors in English phrasing. It doesn't speak well to your ability to fix the problems with the articles you created. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:22, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@MoviesandTelevisionFan: If you'd like, take a look at the list on my talk page of your articles which I have worked on. While not perfect, they may give you more of an idea where your mistakes lie if you compare their condition now to how they looked when you stepped away from them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:25, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I will do that, thank you. MoviesandTelevisionFan (talk) 01:32, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I moved Nick Mackey to draft as some content was unintelligible, user has made numerous efforts to improve this with zero success “resigned for which he was probed from a reason" “"he was resigned due to being investigated from some issues” ”he was resigned from his duty due to being investigated from his fabricating hours" now “In 2003, he was resigned.” WP:CIR is appropriate. Theroadislong (talk) 21:05, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

That article has been worked on by several editors and is now fine. I've moved it back into mainspace. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:48, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Is this a situation where, rather than a TBAN, having a mandatory AfC draft submission for all their articles would be appropriate instead? Silverseren^C 21:56, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

As a reasonably active AFC reviewer, our workload is heavy enough without having more than the few mandatory AFC users we have already. All this would achieve is moving the problem around the various willing horses. Mentorship, assuming that still exists, would be a more immediate feedback and education loop. AFC has a large backlog and our role is to accept drafts that have a better than 50% chance of surviving an immediate deletion process. We are not meant to strive for perfection, though some reviewers do. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 22:07, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• I've indefinitely blocked the user from article space. Frankly, I don't think that's sufficient because they will just create work editing badly in draft space. I would prefer a topic ban from article creation in any space, and if my prediction is valid, I can also add draft space to the pblock.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:35, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

  Bbb23, I'm not sure there's consensus here for such a drastic action. Also, it does seem both unnecessary (given that the editor has accepted the criticisms here) and counterproductive (given that they've expressed the intention to go back and correct problems with their articles). – Uanfala (talk) 08:47, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

  Admins can take actions on their own discretion, which I assume was the case here. As for MaTF's intention to fix the problems with their articles, given the nature of their comments here, I do not believe that the editor is capable of correcting the type of mistakes their articles are replete with. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:58, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

I want to get the attention of what I'm gonna say. In my opinion, I think that I should create articles in draftspace that way it could be reviewed by AFC reviewers. I will read the guideline correctly and take my time into creating articles in draftspace. I'm just asking for a second chance from the community and this will be all I will say. I will mention that I should get access to edit namespace again but I would mainly just edit a bit and also add refs. I would still like to improve my articles in namespaces so I can fix it, but I didn't mean to cause disruption. I'm gonna stay back and come back for a few days to see what happens. Thank you! Please ping me if necessary. MoviesandTelevisionFan (talk) 23:14, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

@MoviesandTelevisionFan: Is English your first language? If not, how would you rate your proficiency in English? — Trey Maturin has spoken 23:37, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

English is my first language. This is how I write in English. I apologize if I'm not intelligent at it, but this is my English. MoviesandTelevisionFan (talk) 23:46, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Well then that is a very serious problem for us. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:14, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't believe English is MATF's native tongue. Sorry but... Just got through cleaning up some of their articles. I came across Eloise Hardt on my own. The others I sought out. I will clean up/clear up as many as I can. A list of articles MATF created or worked on is here. MurrayGreshler (talk) 19:24, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

@MoviesandTelevisionFan (Non-administrator comment) Hi! I wanted to give a few suggestions to you since I was at one point in your boat with regards to newer articles. Firstly, I will not be making any comment about age or grade level but if you are under 18/21, I suggest you read WP:YOUNG, it has a bit of guidance aimed at those under 18/21. Secondly, if you say that there are problems with your English, I'd suggest you find a wikitask that you can do that does not require making your own prose (like typo fixing or anti-vandalism work). If you are not comprehending a source then you should not be adding the content from that source. Some sources use extremely specialist terms that only a handful of people (like doctors, mathematicians, historians, etc.) understand, and no amount of reading those sources will make you suddenly understand them. Lastly, it is important that you understand your limits. From WP:CIR: Everyone has a limited sphere of competence. For example, someone may be competent in nuclear physics but incompetent in ballet dancing or vice versa. Some otherwise competent people may lack the skills necessary to edit Wikipedia. If one specific task you are doing is causing problems to the project, then you should cease such task and select another task that you would be able to help with. If you are unable to do that, I am afraid admins may come in and place sitewide blocks and bans. Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 18:47, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Consensus for mass move to draftspace?

• Request - We've had numerous editors here examine MaTF's articles, and the consensus seems to be that, other than very basic stubs, their articles are in need of serious attention. Could an admin or page mover who has the ability to do bulk moves please move this list of articles to draft space? I am a page mover but I don't have the automation or semi-automation capability to do such a mass move. After it's done, I will move the 15 or so articles I worked on back to article space, and I hope other editors who fixed MaTF's articles will do the same.
  (If there's another method of accomplishing the same thing, then that's fine too.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:33, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Beyond My Ken there are userscripts to do mass moves. Wikipedia:User_scripts/List#Moving_and_merging. – robertsky (talk) 02:59, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks, I'll take a look tomorrow. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:09, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

  I don't see any consensus for a mass move to Draft. Your list has over 1,000 articles going back over a year. MB 14:35, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

  So it would be your preferred course to leave 1,000+ badly written and sometimes inaccurate articles (less those fixed by other editors already) in the encyclopedia, in the hope that editors will fix them randomly, as opposed to moving them to draft where editors actively vet possibly problematic articles? That hardly seems helpful to the project. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:58, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

  Moving the articles to draft space to allow active editors to triage them seems sensible given the level of incompetence demonstrated in the creation of the articles. There are a number of editors currently working on mitigating the damage done and if moving them to draft space helps those editors willing to put in the hard work then I support the move. Not everything has to be complicated and bogged down in process, especially when the ultimate result will be better (comprehensible) articles for our readers. -- Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:09, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

  BMK, with respect (I mean that), I don't think you need to be so hot and heavy with MB. A mass move of over 1000 articles needs a clear consensus - it's fine for someone to question whether that consensus is there yet. I looked at one of the articles today myself, and did some copy editing, which essentially involved restructuring every sentence. I agree that draftifying is probably a good idea. Let's just try to avoid snarling at each other while we discuss what the best course of action is. Girth Summit _(blether) 22:15, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

  I think perhaps you read more into my comment than I intended, or I did not express myself well. If MB took offense at it, I apologize. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:22, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

  I've now hived off this section of the discussion to serve as a formal discussion of whether there is a consensus for a mass move of MaTF's un-fixed articles to draftspace. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:25, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

• To help coordinate efforts to improve MaTF's articles, I've created User:Beyond My Ken/MaTF-created articles. Editors are encouraged to delete from the list any articles they have worked on which are of sufficient quality that they do not need to be moved to Draftspace. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:56, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

@Larry Hockett, Brunton, Teblick, MurrayGreshler, Spicy, and Girth Summit: Please see my previous comment on this thread. Apologies to other editors whose efforts I missed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:59, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I removed an article that I rewrote. If possible, it may be a good idea to introduce a length-based cutoff - I haven't seen any evidence that there's anything wrong with all of the basic substubs in the format "[X] was an American [occupation]. He won an Academy Award for [Y]." Spicy (talk) 01:06, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the sub-stubs I've seen have been fine. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:08, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Urgh - I just looked at Nate Monaster, and it's not just poorly written, but it seems to be full of factual inaccuracies as well. The second sentence runs as follows: He was nominated for an Academy Award for Lover Come Back and That Touch of Mink and a win for Pillow Talk, and Mink won him the Writers Guild of America Award win for Best Written American Comedy, which he shared with his partner Stanley Shapiro. At first, I thought this would just be a copy-editing job, but then I checked the sources - as far as I can make out, he didn't write on Lover Come Back or on Pillow Talk. I can't read all of the sources, but the ones I can see only mention the nomination for That Touch of Mink. In short - put me down as supporting a mass move to draft space. Girth Summit _(blether) 09:41, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose strongly moving these articles to draft. NPP is the first port of call for every new article. The fact that this has been subverted by a holder of the AP right means that they should first be marked 'unreviewed' and put back in the NewPagesFeed where they will receive the appropriate first attention by vetted New Page Reviewers. Their triage will ensure their future destiny be it Draft, or any one of our deletion processes. Contrary to what is often misunderstood (including by the WMF to whom I had to explain this yesterday in a planning meeting with them), moving to draft does not automatically increase the workload at AfC; that only happens when the creator submits the draft. Beyond My Ken's work on this delicate issue - where the creator should never have been accoderd AP - has been excellent, but mass moving to draft is not the immediate solution. With their backlock at an astounding low of around 500, the NPPers have more than enough time to process a 1,000 stubs and other inappropriate articles. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:53, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• @Kudpung: Thanks for that information. Can articles be mass-marked "un-reviewed" or does it have to be done one by one? Beyond My Ken (talk)

@Beyond My Ken: unless a bot or a script could do it, it would need to be done one-by-one. I know this means seeing the pages twice but it's the proper way to go and would avoid inviting any new precedents that we might regret later. So proper in fact, that I don't mind doing some of it myself. The NPPers could take care of the reviewing or I could even do that on the fly too while marking them ureviewed but the New Pages Feed has to the the first logical stop in the correct workflow. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:15, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: It's worth noting that Moving to draft will not give MTF the benefit of any doubt because he is blocked anyway. There is the possibility of a little known system at NPPNE. If nothing comes of that, the articles can then be PRODed along with any other unsuitable ones. That would give them 7 days exposure to the wider community which they wouldn't get as drafts, and after that they would be deleted. That would also ward off any accusations that NPPers are using draft as a backdoor route to deletion. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:28, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Does the article space block extend to drafts? If not, or if there was a way to make it so that it doesn’t, then moving the articles to draft would enable MTF to carry on working on them. Brunton (talk) 09:38, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Unless Bbb23 has extended the block, it's just for editing mainspace at this time. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:04, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

In that case, I suggest that a move to draft is the ideal solution. It allows them to be checked before being moved back, and it will also give MTF a chance to work on them and demonstrate that the mainspace block is no longer necessary. Brunton (talk) 13:10, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support I mean it's just embarrassing how poorly written these articles are, not just that but the information also seems to be incorrect in most of them as if he didn't even bother to read the sources. Good job I found this user before he did even more damage. The admin who gave him auto patrolled rights really messed up here I'm afraid and should be called out for this serious error. I'll help go over some of his articles but it will take up a lot of time to go over all of them, a lot of unnecessary damage here that could have been avoided if his articles had been thoroughly checked before he was granted this right. Inexpiable (talk) 19:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• As pointed out above, at the time MaTF received the autopatrol flag, he had xreated primiarily sub-stubs, which -- as far as I've seen -- are acceptable. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:45, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  AP is supposed to be granted based on a reliable history of creating "clean" articles. Wikipedia:Autopatrolled says an editor should have written at least 25 "articles" and specifically says redirects and dab pages don't count. It shouldn't be necessary, but that could be changed to also say the articles should at least be Start-class. MB 05:38, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

• Given the attitude of New Page Reviewers expressed in the section below, I do not believe that Kudpung's suggestion to not move MaTF's articles to draftspace, but instead to mark them as needing review would be an adequate solution, as the problems with them won't be fixed, they'll just be rubber-stamped back into mainspace, because the subjects are notable. Therefore, I request that an admin assess this discussion -- which has been ongoing for 10 days now -- to see if there is a consensus to move MaTF's articles (the ones that remain on the list here) to draftspace. My assessment is that there is a consensus (4-1) to do so, but I think an admin should make the call. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:15, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Just to note, despite about a dozen or so editors working on MaTF's articles for almost 2 weeks now, there are still about 800 on the list which haven't been fixed or checked and passed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:45, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Request withdrawn. Admins seem to have more important tasks to do in any event. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:00, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support. Sometimes, no article is better than a bad one and that appears to be the case here, particularly NPP doesn't believe they are able to address the issue through their processes. BilledMammal (talk) 11:06, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
• Support I picked two random articles from the list BMK developed and found similar factual issues as others have. There's just no reason not to go with the more proactive approach here in the face of the scale of the problem. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 16:25, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Another aspect of the problem

Another aspect of the problem with MaTF's articles is that they appear to be being approved at Articles for Creation in a state which is not actually up to Wikipedia standards. User:Ingenuity just passed Paul Bolster, J. E. Jumonville Sr. and Paul Taliaferro despite all three of them required editing to fix basic errors of grammar and style - and this despite Ingenuity being aware of this thread. Is there a problem with AfC's standards? Why are articles that are not up to Wikipedia's basic standards being approved? Or is the problem with this particular reviewer? Who is responsible for seeing that AfC's standards are sufficient to protect the encyclopedia from mistakes such as these? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:31, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

You can take a look at the AFC reviewing instructions, specifically WP:AFCPURPOSE. From the guidelines: Article submissions that are likely to survive an AfD nomination should be accepted and published to mainspace. All of the above articles pass WP:NPOL and would easily pass AfD. The purpose of AfC isn't to decline every article that has grammar mistakes. Wikipedia is a work-in-progress; not every article in mainspace has to be perfect. If you feel that the requirements to pass AfC should be more strict, feel free to open a discussion at the AfC talk page, which is probably a more appropriate venue for a discussion like this. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 02:54, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

What's missing is the content of the box in the workflow diagram before the article even gets to review: "Correct and submit for review", which is to be informed by (green box) "Communication: reviewer comments / in-line message / AFC discussion / User talk page / Tea House / IRC". Did any sort of communication take place between you, the reviewer, and MaTF? If not, why not, when there were basic problems of grammar and style in the article? If there was discussion, why weren't the errors pointed out to MaTF?

Perhaps I'm naive. I thought that AfC reviewers were actually doing something to protect Wikipedia from badly written articles, and not simply checking off boxes on a checklist by rote. You seem to believe that your job as a reviewer to to approve anything that doesn't fail preset criteria. I see your job as being to make sure that badly written articles stay in draftspace until they're fixed. Your way lead to our having to re-check over 1,000 articles written by MaTF, so I don't see it as a very successful methodology. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:18, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

We accept articles that would survive an AfD discussion. Articles with spelling errors don't get deleted. The queue is too big for us to be holding drafts over every issue. —VersaceSpace 🌃 03:34, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

These were not "spelling errors", the articles had bad grammar and basic style mistakes. We are a reference work used by millions of people. We cannot afford our articles to have sentences in them such as

"In 1991, Taliaferro was pleaded guilty of bank fraud by a federal jury. It had resulted him from being suspended of the Oklahoma Senate."

We sound like something written for little children when our articles say things like

"He attended Eastern Baptist College, where he earned his bachelor’s degree in 1966. Bolster also attended the University of Mississippi, where he earned his master’s degree in 1967. He attended the University of Georgia, where he earned his doctorate degree in 1972. He also attended the Georgia State University, where he earned his law degree."

We are better than that, and we should demand that new articles meet our standards of quality.

You say your queue is too long, and I'm sympathetic. But when articles like that are thrown into Articlespace they're no longer in any queue at all. There's no additional process to check over articles for basic problems except blind random chance - AfC is the process. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:43, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

I thought we as a community already held the view that the bar of "mainspace acceptable" was far below "well-written". This is the quality you get when you entrust the general public to write an encyclopedia. —VersaceSpace 🌃 03:51, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Can you point me to a policy which advocates that Wikipedia articles should not be written to a basic standard of quality? What the heck is Draftspace for if not a holding place for articles that aren't ready for prime time? If we're not going to check the articles out properly before they move into the encyclopedia, we may as well get rid of it altogether. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:56, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

One of the most important parts of Wikipedia is that it's a work in progress. This is said pretty much everywhere. I don't know, "bad grammar" is not a decline rationale on the AfC script. There isn't even a consensus for what should be incubated in draft (page movers draftifying is usually an arbitrary decision or based on unspoken precedent), so what are meant to act on? —VersaceSpace 🌃 04:04, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

The policy is WP:IMPERFECT. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:17, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

@VersaceSpace: Don't you think that "This is the quality you get when you entrust the general public to write an encyclopedia" is a rather inappropriate attitude for a New Page Reviewer to have? Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:00, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

No. there's a difference between me having an opinion and it affecting my work, and my attitude at NPP vastly differs from that at AfC. I'm also not accepting any imperfect articles through AfC, since I'm autopatrolled and the articles I accept don't enter the NPP queue. Users without AP can more freely accept drafts because they still get manually reviewed. —VersaceSpace 🌃 04:14, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

You make good points. But, the community has simply been reluctant to empower one editor, NPP or AFC, to gatekeep articles on notable topics from mainspace. Most of the large-scale issues such as this are taken care of at AN/ANI. A reviewer could get into trouble for doing the exact same thing an AFD or ANI consensus might do about these problem articles/editors. Because individual editors don't have that mandate. Some power users good at argumentation maybe could get away with doing what you suggest, but you can't fault an average AFC/NPP editor for not going that route. Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:22, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

So I gather that the attitude is that if the subject is notable, any old piece of garbage article is better than none at all. That's ... sad. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:41, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

It's not an attitude, it's the state of the community consensus today. You know as well as I (maybe better) that we have a spectrum of editors on the project from include everything to delete everything. The balance currently is to not allow an individual reviewer to keep articles from mainspace using other excuses not to do with notability of the article (I assume, for fear that deletionists will overrun AFC/NPP). I don't know why this surprises you since this is the state with AFD as well where if an article passes notability, other issues rarely if ever result in deletion or draftification. Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:20, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

This issue is fundamental as the essential feature of Wikipedia is that it's quick and dirty. This was the big breakthrough after it was found that the perfectionist model of Nupedia was an utter failure. This approach of making a weak start and then refining the content has long been enshrined in the policy WP:IMPERFECT which explicitly says that " Even poor articles, if they can be improved, are welcome. ... the article may become disorganized or contain substandard writing." That's why we have the article grading system in which the Start level says "Providing references to reliable sources should come first; the article also needs substantial improvement in content and organisation. Also improve the grammar, spelling, writing style and improve the jargon use." So, if there are grammar issues of this sort, the article should be graded as Start class and left where the relevant projects and copy-editors will find it. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:40, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• I wasn't going to comment as I figured I was just missing something, but this sub-section kinda reinforces my feelings... Are these articles really that bad? I checked over a random ~15 from xtools, all had some grammatical issues and some had some trivia in them, but overwhelmingly seemed fine. I see an example of actual error above, but not many of them, though that's not to say they don't exist; much of the focus in this section has been on the grammatical quality. It doesn't seem much worse than the avg article I stumble across when I use Wikipedia as a reader. The examples BMK cites above, like In 1991, Taliaferro was pleaded guilty of bank fraud by a federal jury. It had resulted him from being suspended of the Oklahoma Senate I don't this are that bad. a) it conveys the information clearly, even if the grammar is broken; b) it's an easy copyedit job, including for an interested reader who stumbles across it, giving them an easy in into the world of editing. I think WP:IMPERFECT is aptly cited: Collaborative editing means that incomplete or poorly written first drafts can evolve over time into excellent articles. Even poor articles, if they can be improved, are welcome. ... At any point during this process, the article may become disorganized or contain substandard writing. Unless there's a pattern of greater errors (i.e. of matters of fact and sourcing), IMO remove autopatrolled from the user and let them continue; NPP can deal with articles, or tag them as required. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:48, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
• In the face of such determined resistance to a minimum basic standard of quality, I'm dropping the entire matter, at least as far as I'm concerned. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:59, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Welcome to the club, meetings are Thursdays at 6 in the WMF office basement; please bring a snack to share. Levivich (talk) 17:17, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Billyball998 is sealioning

I think that Billyball998 (talk · contribs) is using WP:Sealioning at Talk:Book of Daniel. They are a case of WP:1AM and WP:SPA. They are pushing a Sangerite interpretation of WP:NPOV against the academic consensus (the consensus claim is verified by no less than four citations). tgeorgescu (talk) 19:09, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Billyball998 is raising a legitimate point Tgeorgescu's approach to excluding the description of the views of religious scholars has been problematic across a number of different articles. Interaction with him tends towards bludgeoning and often involve incivility. The only reason one could disagree with the "scholarly consensus" is because one is either "severally misinformed or a religious bigot".

It does look like Billyball998 is a SPA, which is bad. Someone with tools should probably look at it to see whether it is a sock puppet and take appropriate action. However, the 1AM issue is a red herring. Tgeorgescu drives contributors with different views away from these articles and then claims that any new ones who show up are 1AM. Jahaza (talk) 19:27, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Ryken, Leland; Longman, Tremper (2010). The Complete Literary Guide to the Bible. Zondervan. ISBN 9780310877424. The consensus of modern biblical scholarship is that the book was composed in the second century B.C., that it is a pseudonymous work, and that it is indeed an example of prophecy after the fact. N.B.: Ryken and Longman have an axe to grind against this mainstream academic consensus, nevertheless they report it for what it is.

And... I did not revert Billyball998. Two other established editors did that.

As I stated at WP:DRN, I am not against citing the Medieval Rabbi Rashi. I just oppose citing him as being on a par with modern mainstream historical research.

They may cite Rashi using WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, but they should leave the mainstream academic view undisturbed. My verbatim statement was:

I am not principally opposed to citing Rashi, but there should be no implication that his dating is on a par with the modern, mainstream academic dating. WP:NPOV is not an excuse for maiming mainstream historical information from the article.
— User:tgeorgescu

The Bible is the voice of God, not the voice of scientists. If we want the voice of scientists, we ask the scientists. Most of them do advocate the Big Bang, abiogenesis, and evolution as the most visible means of how the world came to be. Whether or not this was God's doing is up to the reader to decide. If the scientists are mistaken, this has to be shown to them on their own grounds, which anti-evolution folks are not really doing, because they are not reading up on the same literature, they are not using the same standards and experiments, and they are not speaking in the same circles nor getting published in the same journals. If it does not walk like a duck, does not talk like a duck, and avoids ducks like the plague, there is little reason to assume its a duck. Or scientist, in this case. I'm not saying the anti-evolution folks are wrong, I'm just saying that they are not mainstream scientists. This is why they're not consulted for the voice of scientists. Now, they can be consulted for what they think if their views are notable.
— User:Ian.thomson

Same applies to those "religious scholars": they are often not modern mainstream historians, so they should not be consulted for the voice of modern mainstream historians. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:02, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm going to try to avoid the content dispute per se here, including the problems with academic consensus as a concept.

You've now replied five times in 30 minutes to this comment, which is part of why I mention bludgeoning. Twice I've tried to reply and had my comment edit conflicted out.

You say that you're not opposed to including other views, but you don't seem to work towards a mutually agreeable version, or edit the page in a compromise way to include them as historical or minority while restoring information about modern academic consensus. This seems to be its own kind of sea lioning, where you claim that you want to include those views, but oppose their inclusion in practice. Jahaza (talk) 20:08, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

@Jahaza: Can you mention examples from the past wherein I have opposed including "religious scholars" using WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV? I certainly did oppose citing them in the voice of Wikipedia, or as being on a par with modern historians, but I don't remember that I would have WP:CENSORED "religious scholars" per se. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:12, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

One hour later: my understanding of WP:TPG is that talk page posts can be edited as long as they have not been replied to. Is my understanding wrong?

And I would gladly be considered "the bulldog of the academic consensus", although more often than not I am the canary in the coalmine. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:16, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Let me spell out your choice: abide by WP:RS/AC or be gone from Wikipedia. There is no need to beat around the bush, the end result is the same: you will be blocked and banned if you don't abide by it. We don't need fundamentalist claptrap masquerading as WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Either you kowtow to WP:CHOPSY, or Wikipedia is not the proper place for you. User:tgeorgescu

• I think that this sort of discourse can stand on its own to show the chilling effect and the WP:SYSTEMIC bias that has been bludgeoned into articles on Sacred Scripture throughout enwiki. This topic area has a third rail and if its WP:CABAL rejects anything that isn't CHOPSY then I consider it to be intellectually bankrupt and not worth my editing time or effort. I really do avoid anything related to Scripture because of this pervasive attitude and WP:OWN of articles across the broad topic area. I can testify that it has a chilling effect against any actual Christian scholarly views being represented.

Elizium23 (talk) 21:48, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

No. It's a historical question. And by "theological points of view", you're not referring to the mainstream theological position but what is essentially a fringe theory held by fundamentalist theologians. The purpose of theological study of the bible is hermeneutical - it's about interpretation, and most respected theologians accept that Genesis was written somewhere between the reign of King David (c. 1000 BCE) and the exile period (560 BCE). Claritas (talk) 14:11, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Ask anyone who edits in this area: scholars following a non-mainstream, fundamentalist view are regularly removed from Wikipedia. --Ermenrich (talk) 00:53, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

You linked to the article on the historical method, but did you read it? Yes, have you? Perhaps I should have linked to a more appropriate article, such as scientific consensus which more accurately portrays what Bdub is claiming to be wrong. You can't assume that because an editors is capable of making points that they are correct: Bdub's assertion is that the consensus of modern historians is wrong and ancient sources are right, which puts his position in many of the same categories as Creationism, Breatharianism, The flat Earth theory, Acupuncture and the belief in ancient aliens. No matter hos sophisticated their argument: Bdub has an extraordinarily high standard for evidence to clear, and absolutely no business doing so here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:20, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Awery, just a bit of housekeeping. When you post new comments to this thread, the newest comments need to be put at the bottom of the thread. That's the only way others can easily keep track of how the conversation has flowed. The Harvard Theological Review probably is a prestigious forum. On the other hand, the paper on Daniel that you want us to use was not published by the Harvard Theological Review. It was published by JISCA, an outlet for advocating conservative religious views. This fits with the general trend we've already observed here -- the folks saying that Daniel was written in the sixth century don't publish in mainstream outlets, generally speaking. It's entirely possible that MacGregor has published all sorts of stuff in reliable outlets. JISCA, however, isn't what most editors here would treat as a WP:RS outlet. When a journal is dedicated to a particular religious view, that matters. Just as, for example, Wikipedia does not make use of articles published in Journal of Creation when dealing with the subject of creationism. The question I'd like to see answered is, have any defenses of a sixth-century date been published in mainstream academic outlets. And if they have been, are they the work of a tiny fringe group of scholars, or do they represent a significant number of scholars. So far, it looks as is the 2d-century date for Daniel assuming its present form is the scholarly consensus, although of course there are hold-outs in the religious world, just as there are hold-outs on creationism. Because of WP:FRINGE, Wikipedia generally doesn't make much use of those who hold out against academic consensus. I don't want to speak for Tgeorgescu here, but I don't think he's saying that Christian scholars are automatically disqualified due to their personal faith. Indeed, almost all biblical scholars that Wikipedia cites are either Christian or Jewish. There's only a handful of non-Christian, non-Jewish biblical scholars out there. We don't sideline the views of Christian scholars on Wikipedia, it's that we sideline the views of WP:FRINGE scholars, those whose views have been overwhelmingly rejected by the academic mainstream. Alephb (talk) 21:14, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Attempting to picture WP:CHOPSY as an Anti-Christian cabal is hilarious. Most Bible professors from CHOPSY are either Christian or Jewish, but not of the fundamentalist sort. Such accusation is not far from the idea that liberal Christians are not Christians at all, or from the idea that Catholics aren't Christians. You could equally well claim that the historical method is the mark of the beast.

Someone has to tell the newbies as it is: what's wrong with kowtowing to the academic consensus? Aren't we all expected to do that? tgeorgescu (talk) 00:52, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I would like to add that conservative/traditional (so called fundamentalist) religious positions are not ipso facto sub-scholarly/anti-chopsy, the big 6 regularly publish conservative/traditional religious positions. Chopsy is about adhering to scholarly standards, not a rejection of religious views. I of course do not advocate for citing as evidence poorly sourced or other sub-scholarship, but published works that, for example do not implictly disqaulify the possibilty of prophecy, are not sub-scholarly, and are often published by the big 6. For example the porter young article you cited from oxford. Even Collins does not inherently reject prophecy, he makes claims as to why he doesn't believe it to be prophecy (J.J. Collins, Commentary on the Book of Daniel, with an essay, “The Influence of Daniel on the New Testament,” by A. Yarbro Collins (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress, 1993)) p. 26. I will post this on the talk page in question (Talk:Book of Daniel) also. Billyball998 (talk) 01:29, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

The historical method (aka methodological naturalism to many) rejects genuine prophecies as attestable historical facts. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:32, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

That is not the historical method.. and it is not the criteria of chopsy as evidenced by the fact that chopsy do publish works that leave prophecy as a potential, such as the porter young work. Do you have a source that wikipedia abides by methodological naturalism? I know for a fact chopsy doesn't. Billyball998 (talk) 01:42, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

That applies to the World War 2? I would love to publish an article how elves and fairies influenced the battles of WW2. Or does it apply only to the Bible? Then I would love to publish an article that leprechauns have dictated the Book of Daniel. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:47, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

wp:Chopsy still applies... i doubt chopsy would consider your article, because of poor scholarship and citations, not inherently because of your beliefs, unless you could apply proper scholarship to your claims. Billyball998 (talk) 02:07, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Answer from Dr. Ehrman: I think the theological modes of knowledge are perfectly acceptable and legitimate as theological modes of knowledge. But I think theological claims have to be evaluated on a theological basis. For example, you know the idea that these four facts that Bill keeps referring to showed that God raised Jesus from the dead. You could come up with a different theological view of it. Suppose, for example, to explain those four facts that the God Zulu sent Jesus into the 12th dimension, and in that 12th dimension he was periodically released for return to Earth for a brief respite from his eternal tormentors. But he can't tell his followers about this because Zulu told him that if he does, he'll increase his eternal agonies. So that's another theological explanation for what happened. It would explain the empty tomb, it would explain Jesus appearances.

Is it as likely as God raised Jesus from the dead and made him sit at his right hand; that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has interceded in history and vindicated his name by raising his Messiah? Well, you might think no, that in fact the first explanation of the God Zulu is crazy. Well, yeah, O.K., it's crazy; but it's theologically crazy. It's not historically crazy. It's no less likely as an explanation for what happened than the explanation that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob raised Jesus from the dead because they're both theological explanations; they're not historical explanations. So within the realm of theology, I certainly think that theology is a legitimate mode of knowledge. But the criteria for evaluating theological knowledge are theological; they are not historical.

“The historian has no access to “supernatural forces” but only to the public record, that is, to events that can be observed and interpreted by any reasonable person, of whatever religious persuasion. If a “miracle” requires a belief in the supernatural realm, and historians by the very nature of their craft can speak only about events of the natural world, events that are accessible to observers of every kind, how can they ever certify that an event outside the natural order-that is, a miracle- occurred? – Bart Ehrman – Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 193)

“Since historians can only establish what probably did happen in the past, and the chances of a miracle happening, by definition, are infinitesimally remote, they can never demonstrate that a miracle probably happened. This is not a problem for only one kind of historians, it is a problem for all historians of every stripe. Even if there are otherwise good sources for a miraculous event, the very nature of the historical discipline prevents the historian from arguing for its probability.” – Bart Ehrman – Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 196)

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 02:23, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Given that I am involved here, I thought I should chime in at least briefly. I see a clear consensus against Billyball998's proposals, and agree that they have been a bit strident on the talk page, but I don't think they have been truly disruptive. I have great respect for tgeorgescu, and agree with him substantively almost all the time, but he tends to be a lot more proactive than I am. I am content to simply keep saying "no" to Billyball998 unless and until they provide us something more compelling than the argument to date. Cheers, all, and Happy Friday. Dumuzid (talk) 15:13, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I have been participating in discussions concerning Biblical articles for several years. I often find myself agreeing with what tgeorgescu is saying, but he is rather quick to start threatening other users. The conversation gets heated for no real reason. In this case, Billyball998's list of sources does not seem to reflect mainstream opinions. I would personally avoid citing Kenneth Kitchen as an authority on the Old Testament's historicity, since nobody seems to agree with his views. Dimadick (talk) 05:58, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

seaLioning, at the Book of Daniel? Seems we've really walked into a certain large feline's den in this one, folks.

All that aside, I agree that @Billyball998's proposals here are WP:FRINGEy and depict a serious lack of competence in this editor space. In reply to @Dumuzid I am content to simply keep saying "no" to Billyball998 unless and until they provide us something more compelling than the argument to date. I think eventually that does get tiring, and becomes a pretty clear drain on editor time and resources. Eventually we have to do something to allow editors to spend more time on, yknow, actually improving the articles. TBANs are meant to be preventative in exactly cases like this. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 14:13, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes indeed. The language you quoted was from a couple of days ago when I was more hopeful of a denouement. There's a reason I described tegeorgescu as "proactive" rather than doubting his judgment; it seems like time has shown him more correct than I was. Billyball998, your insistence that we keep running in circles on this really is becoming an issue. I would implore you to find another area of the encyclopedia on which to work, at least for a time. Cheers all. Dumuzid (talk) 14:49, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I fully understand that continuing the standstill-argument isn't productive, please see my last comment on the page in question from yesterday to attest to this. Thanks. Billyball998 (talk) 19:13, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussions end up being not productive in large part because tgeorgescu et al. have driven off any editors with different views than their own that are not fringey. Jahaza (talk) 22:40, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

User:tgeorgescu - It appears that you are forum shopping. You opened this thread at 1909 GMT, 3 November, after opening the FTN case at 1654 GMT, 2 November, and then also opened the RSN inquiry at 0039 GMT, 5 November. (You didn't file the DRN case that was closed.) Robert McClenon (talk) 00:21, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't know if that really counts as forum shopping.... Each thread appears to be covering different aspects of this situation. Forum shopping would be if he were taking the same issue to different places to attempt to get a single outcome. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 00:24, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Understood. Then you may close any of the discussions opened by me. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:36, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Topic ban

See [8]? They're hopeless. They're not even good for rough ashlar. They lack any WP:CLUE. I propose giving them a topic ban for lacking WP:CIR. Hint: there are now 5 (five) WP:RS which all verify the WP:RS/AC requirements. Some people never learn. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:10, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:03, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
• What is the scope of the proposal, so we don't have to guess after looking through? Is it specific to the Book of Daniel, or will a broader topic ban be needed? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:27, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Scope is anything in the intersection between mainstream history and religion. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:28, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Far too soon for that. As mentioned above, there are also problems with the way tgeorgescu carries on discussions (I still haven't got used to the way he uses quotes) so I would not use any interactions with him as evidence against another editor. As for the content, while there may be an academic consensus on the dating, that is in itself not a reason to put it in WP voice, and we have no policy that requires us to do so. (WP:CHOPSY, cited above, is tgeorgescu's own essay.) StAnselm (talk) 15:44, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  I am fine that instead of writing "The Book of Daniel is a 2nd century writing" we would write "The consensus of mainstream historians and mainstream Bible scholars is that the Book of Daniel is a 2nd century writing". But according to me, that is a distinction without a difference. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:20, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose i think its a reasonable proposal, even if you disagree with it, i am not pov pushing or an SPA. also obviously the spurious SPA ban on my account was lifted fyi

Billyball998 (talk) 15:59, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose While I think Billyball998 should accept a consensus against some/all of their points, the simply unacceptable approach to discussion taken by other editors should also be taken into account when assessing BB998's statements. It also looks like I'm not the only one who thinks that a very mild BOOMERANG might be needed; considering this warrantless and gossipy message on a noticeboard frequented by many editors who are already inclined to support the very standards tgeorgescu is aggressively defending. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:19, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  The majority of "facts" about Ancient history enjoy a lesser amount of WP:RS/AC than the Book of Daniel written in the 2nd century BCE. That would mean a free pass to maim most Ancient history articles. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:47, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  This is true. Does not change the fact you violated a core policy (biting newcomers) and without demonstrating any patience with someone who is clearly trying to understand policies they were only just informed of. You are very right that your objectives aren't the issue, but your approach in this specific circumstance was. You are clearly a trusted editor and I'm glad you pushed back against something that broke policy, but the last few days of bickering could have been avoided. I hope you don't get sanctioned and would disapprove of it, just as I disapprove of something towards our new fellow editor (for now). ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:20, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  That is, assuming that their inability to get a WP:CLUE is sincere (genuine) and not fake naivete. As I said: I did not revert their edits, and there were more editors telling them how we do things around here. Did you see [9]? That was their 8th edit at en.wiki and does not seem at all like how a newbie would edit their talk page. So cut me some slack that I do not believe that they are intellectually unable to get the point, they just pretend to do so. Interesting is that Étale.cohomology (talk · contribs) had a similar POV at [10], [11], and [12]. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:22, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  In fact, it's not "interesting," since @Bbb23 has stated that technical data shows that they're not the same user[13]. Implying that someone is a sock-puppet of another account after an administrator has cleared them seems quite improper. Jahaza (talk) 08:37, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Jahaza: Do you know that there is a substantial difference between technical checkuser data and WP:DUCK? They were cleared of using the same IP and browser, not of having similar edits. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:41, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  In fact, their edit histories are not very similar at all. Please AGF. Jahaza (talk) 08:43, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  As the saying goes, AGF is not a suicide pact. They usually use the visual editor, as any newbie would, but not at their 8th edit ever. WP:DUCK again at [14]. Yet another WP:DUCK: [15]. Blatant WP:DUCK: [16].

  I think that now it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that they do have the same POV. Are they the same person? How would I know? But it is absolutely certain that they share the same POV. The only difference is that they have declared Also I am not Jewish or Christian just fyi. at [17] while the indeffed accounts proclaim Jesus. And if they are neither Jewish nor Christian, I don't understand their motivation, e.g. for Muslim apologists it is very fashionable to bash the reliability of the Bible. For the Baháʼí Faith, the inerrancy of the Bible is not relevant, and Mormons consider themselves to be Christians. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:00, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  Yes I am also not muslim or mormon... as I said my motivation is an academic one because I don't believe this issue is an established fact and I believe it should be presented neutrally using wps voice. The edit 108 was an edit of the content you posted on my talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Billyball998&oldid=1119574987 Billyball998 (talk) 17:01, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: I am considering some sort of WP:BOOMERANG proposal to prevent tgeorgescu from engaging with newcomers. His behaviour even in this thread has been less than ideal, and he has a long history of biting new editors, particularly ones with Christian convictions. I appreciate that his motives are honourable, and that he is certainly here to build an encyclopedia, but the way he is going about it is, IMO, unacceptable. StAnselm (talk) 15:58, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  Christian convictions is not the stuff that irritates me. What irritates me is using Wikipedia as a WP:SOAPBOX for religious fundamentalism. There is a difference between rendering a fundamentalist opinion with WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV (of which I am fairly tolerant) and engaging in religious propaganda, mainly through removing mainstream historical information from religious articles. The only difference between Billyball998's edits at Book of Daniel and outright vandalism is that Billyball998 took time to argue their POV at the talk page. Otherwise, their purpose is the same as the purpose of fundamentalist vandals who maim religious articles, namely deleting mainstream Bible scholarship from Wikipedia. And your argument holds if they are a newbie, but I have my doubts about that. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:37, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I realise there is a a problem with naive editors making edits like that to biblical articles, it's the way we treat them that's the issue. Calling them "fundamentalist vandals" is part of the problem. Yes, their edits should be reverted, but with gentle explanations. Don't you see that the very fact that you posted a thread here is an indication of biting? And even if you have doubts about the editor being a newbie, you're still not assuming good faith? StAnselm (talk) 16:43, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

It looks to me like your very first response to Billyball998 on the article talk page was "Let me spell out your choice: abide by WP:RS/AC or be gone from Wikipedia." If that's not WP:BITE, I don't know what is. StAnselm (talk) 16:51, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Why that strong reply? Because the same POV had been pushed very recently by other editors and IPs. Whether they are or not a newbie does not change the above affirmation that I consider them hopeless as an Wikipedian. And, yes, when I began to edit Wikipedia, I was hopeless as an Wikipedian, but I was simply not obnoxious as to get banned. I have matured intellectually, and only then I could become a reliable editor.

So yeah, there are three possibilities: WP:SOCK, WP:MEAT, and a very improbable coincidence. These are my reasons for considering that they are not a newbie.

8 October Jesus is God of gods 003 (talk · contribs)

18 October Jesusisourfreedom (talk · contribs)

1 November 174.242.209.149 (talk · contribs)

2 November Billyball998 (talk · contribs)

That's the timeline of the same POV-pushing at this article. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:14, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Those accounts made unverifiable unsourced claims, I would urge you to point to any edit that I made that was factually untrue, or unverifiable. I did not push any pov, i am not a Christian, I want to remove the bias that exists towards one of multiple scholarly theories, there is no reason to assume Collins is correct when it is a debated issue even and especially within biblical criticism. Billyball998 (talk) 17:27, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

[18] says that the sources you have provided have failed to make the case for your POV.

Also, not Christian, not Jewish, not Muslim, not Mormon, but purely academic interest... do you understand that even if that's true, it still is hard to believe? People with an academic interest are generally speaking not overzealous POV-pushers. Especially when defending someone's else's scholarly POV (yup, it is a POV belonging to conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists).

And less than 10 hours after the POV-pushing edit warring you offered us WP:THETRUTH of the same POV-pushing. That's also hard to believe. See [19]. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:57, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I am making no claims as to the truth of any of the views, I am advocating neutrality, saying that the c. 165 bc date is debated, is not pov pushing, i would argue that unwavering commitment to SR Drivers theory, and trying to write it as fact, is actually pov pushing. also fiveby did not review the sources, and he is not the be all and end all. Please make actual arguments against the sources (and individually) that people can check if you want them to be disqualified.

As far as my ability to produce evidence for my claims... its almost as if, as I've stated, it is a debated issue amongst scholars, and I didn't make that up. Billyball998 (talk) 18:04, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

In order of not beating around the bush: you have failed to produce any WP:Verifiable evidence that there is a controversy raging in the mainstream academia (about the dating of Daniel). And you had the huevos to call Collins's judgment extreme supposition. Well, for more than a century that's the only mainstream academic view about the dating of Daniel. Other views are simply WP:FRINGE. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:14, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

You have failed to produce any WP:Verifiable evidence that there is a controversy raging in the mainstream academia (about the dating of Daniel).

The verifiable citations I have provided? What exactly is your claim against them, all of my citations are within the last 60 years, except some of the ones borrowed from Collins.

and where did I call Collins' theory extreme supposition? thanks. All the scholars ive cited are scholarly, even if they are minority, they are not fringe. Billyball998 (talk) 18:50, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Edit summaries from Book of Daniel:

Restructuring to keep elements under correct headers, improving flow, removing jargon/unclear (?) ("wisdom circles") defining positions on authorship, added hyperlinks and citations, removed extreme supposition that Daniel was authored in the Maccabean period specifically, added minutia, additional positions, and evidence concerning modern biblical criticism scholars, aswell as rewording of some appeals to authority (ie. "some scholars believe..." in place of "the consensus is that…").

please see the talk page "consensus", please edit if you feel you can better summarize something instead of undoing. moving elements under correct headers, improving flow, removing jargon/unclear (?) ("wisdom circles"), defining additional positions on authorship, added hyperlinks and citations, removed extreme supposition that Daniel was authored in the Maccabean period specifically (OR)(?), adding minutia, additional positions, and evidence concerning modern biblical criticism.)

And you have to produce real evidence that in 2022 AD there is a debate thereupon raging in the mainstream academia. Sources from 60 years ago don't count to that effect.

If you claim that you have an academic interest then I don't have to explain to you which sources count to that effect. If you fail to get the point, then it is a false pretense that you have an academic interest. Does publish or perish tells you anything?

This is very neatly explained at Scientific consensus and arguments from authority on YouTube. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:48, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Collins does not assert that Daniel was authored under the maccabean/hashmonean dynasty, it actually goes against his dating... if it is supposed to mean "at the same time as early Maccabean revolts", it should say that but still that would be synthesis. Especially because Collins estimate of 168-165 bc is not completely with the early Maccabean revolts (which begin in 167 bc)

For you to claim a source is outdated, you have to demonstrate why, you saying they are outdated does not make them outdated. Scholarship in this area has not changed fundamentally in the last 65 years. Scholars in this study routinely cite scholarship even older, see Collins, Flint, etc.

I agree with the point of the video which talks about how a theory can be 'accepted as the consensus when the amount of evidence is overwhelming, and no one can find a serious flaw', this is not true of SR drivers theory. Criticism of the theory represents true scholarship, backed by evidence, not denialism, or anti scholarly fringe theories. Billyball998 (talk) 21:05, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

i think we should move further discussion back to Talk:Book of Daniel. thanks Billyball998 (talk) 21:06, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

This is what Google shows for the search terms Maccabean period: "The main phase of the revolt lasted from 167–160 BCE and ended with the Seleucids in control of Judea, but conflict between the Maccabees, Hellenized Jews, and the Seleucids continued until 134 BCE, with the Maccabees eventually attaining independence." So, may I ask, is c. 165 BCE during the Maccabean period? Or this: "The Maccabean Revolt of 167-160 BCE was a Jewish uprising in Judea against the repression of the Seleucid Empire. The revolt was led by a country priest called Mattathias, and his military followers became known as Maccabees." tgeorgescu (talk) 21:16, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Technically speaking, "macccabean period" is not a term historians (as far as I know) use. There is the hashmonean dynasty, which begins in 140 bc. The first revolts began in 167 bc, whereas collins claim is somewhere from 168-165. In conclusion, I would say c.165 bc is not within the "Maccabean period" (a misnomer) and also Collins claim does not even fall completely within the revolts.

If you are claiming that the first maccabean revolts are called the maccabean period, you should provide a citation, but there is still the other issue.

Now i will try not to continue on this page because this is not the subject of this page, please know in the future I will respond back on Talk:Book of Daniel. thanks. Billyball998 (talk) 21:28, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

You stated removed extreme supposition that Daniel was authored in the Maccabean period specifically (twice).

So, not only your interpretation of WP:RULES such as WP:RS/AC and WP:NPOV is confused, your interpretation that a controversy is raging in the mainstream academia is also confused, and it is you who have used misnomers twice, according to what you said yourself above. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:39, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I am not using the misnomer... I am stating that removed the statement that "Daniel was authored in the Maccabean period." Eitherway, the point is i was not calling Collins position supposition, only the faulty wording of the article. Thanks. Billyball998 (talk) 21:49, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Strange, since you did not use quote marks in order to show that it isn't your own view. And even if it isn't your own view, the claim that it is an extreme supposition is highly off the mark. Anyway, your interpretation of WP:NPOV is confused because when the consensus view of the mainstream academia is that something is fact, then it is also a fact in the voice of Wikipedia. I have edited for a long time and I don't know any exceptions from this rule. Since you demanded a WP:RS, here it is: Wessels, Anton; Jansen, Henry; Hofland, Lucy (2020). The Grand Finale: The Apocalypse in the Tanakh, the Gospel, and the Qur’an. Wipf and Stock Publishers. p. 150. ISBN 978-1-7252-7601-7. Retrieved 5 November 2022. The Hasmonean dynasty ruled Judea from the Maccabean revolt in 167 BC until 37 BC. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:11, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

It has not been demonstrated that there is a consensus, offhanded comments are not proof of a consensus, like in the porter young, or peter flint works. My point in providing the sources I have has been to demonstrate a lack of consensus. The video you provided from 16:27 onward might be helpful in understanding my assertion. And please remember consensus does not mean majority, it means its virtually undebated, save for pseudo-scholars and sub-scholarly holdouts.

Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable

WP:RS

I don't want to continue the debate about the "maccabean period" because it doesn't seem particularly important, but ill just say that the level of control that the hashmonean dynasty had waxxed and wained, and most people probably would not characterize 167 bc onward as a "maccabean period", it was one of multiple powers. Thanks Billyball998 (talk) 22:13, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

You do not make the call about what counts as WP:RS/AC. I have WP:CITED to that effect one full professor and three associate professors, all four published at prestigious academic publishing houses. You have WP:CITED an unpublished Master's thesis as if it would count as WP:RS. As Warshy has explicitly told you:

That is precisely what I said. Anything argued in an unknown Master's thesis is inherently sub-scholarly and unfounded vis-a-vis the high-bar biblical criticism claims that are trying to be advanced here. The simple attempt to try and make someone look up into some unknown thesis dug up from who knows where is really preposterous in my view. Since you have noone here even slightly agreeing with you on any of your claims, it is high time you stopped beating this dead horse here, in my view. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 21:50, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I suggest you take their advice to the heart, before admins indef you for trolling. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:41, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I have listed many more sources, any sources you don't believe to be appropriate please argue why in the appropriate location. Thanks. Billyball998 (talk) 22:44, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

But no WP:RS claiming that such controversy is raging in the mainstream academia in the 2000s, or in the 2010s, or in the 2020s. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:46, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: @tgeorgescu: You need to learn the difference between a content dispute and a conduct dispute. RAN1 (talk) 22:53, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  They violate WP:DEADHORSE.

  Let me spell out for you the basics on the dating of the Book of Daniel, and I won't even bother dropping the names of the reliable sources, since this is all rather elementary for anyone who knows some history of the period. I also don't have time for it, and this whole thing is already becoming tiring and boring to death, as anyone looking from the sidelines knows, and as I have already pointed out to you. As I already said, the Book of Daniel did not make it into the Prophets section of the Hebrew Canon. For Jews, in general, the Book of Daniel is rather unimportant as a so-called "prophet." For Christian messianic theology, on the other hand, it is fundamental, because without it there is no basis whatsoever for the Book of Revelation, which is the basic text of Christian apocalypse. However, Jews of the Second Temple period did not start speaking and writing in the Aramaic language before 200 BCE. The Mishnah, which is the basic Jewish religious law collection of the period, did not begin to be compiled before 200 BCE, and it is written still completely in Hebrew, not in Aramaic. The Book of Daniel, is the only book of the Hebrew Bible that has substantial parts of it written in Aramaic, not in Hebrew. These two basic points make any dating of the Book of Daniel before 200 BCE completely improbable. I again, for the last time, strongly suggest to you that you just drop the stick and back away from this dead horse. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 22:53, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 23:02, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  My respone to this quote on the page in question, copied here so as not to misrepresent that the above claims are true:

  Your suggestion is noted. You should know that portions of the Mishnah are written in Aramaic, portions of Ezra are Aramaic, it has also been documented for a very long time that Jews were speaking Aramaic as early as 530 bc in the elephantine papyri (see G.R. Driver "The Aramaic of the book of Daniel). Billyball998 (talk) 23:39, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  Oh boy, you're trying to pull wool over our eyes. Fortunately, Wikipedia has Hebrew language#Displacement by Aramaic. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:55, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, nothing written there contradicts my statements. Also please remember that Collins and almost all scholars believe that Daniel's Aramaic was written well before the Hellenistic era, asserting otherwise truly is a very minority view. Warshys argument is not a logical (imo) or widely accepted one. Billyball998 (talk) 00:01, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  See also https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1707-aramaic-language-among-the-jews tgeorgescu (talk) 00:04, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  Sawyer, John (2012). Sacred Languages and Sacred Texts. Religion in the First Christian Centuries. Taylor & Francis. p. 27. ISBN 978-1-134-80139-8. Retrieved 6 November 2022. By the second century BCE, Aramaic was being used by Jews for religious purposes too, as can be seen from the Book of Daniel (2:4–7:28), which was composed c. 160 BCE [...] tgeorgescu (talk) 00:32, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) DEADHORSE is not an excuse to ignore policy. I linked two very relevant policies in my oppose, and it's necessary for you to know them. RAN1 (talk) 23:43, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  @RAN1: About WP:CONSENSUS: at the talk page of the article, nobody else agrees with Billyball998. About WP:CIVILITY: I did not called them names, at most I said that their interpretations are confused. Also, I do not beat around the bush, but I presume that isn't incivility. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:52, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  What I meant was that content disputes are resolved through consensus, but ANI handles incivility problems. RAN1 (talk) 00:15, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  You called them "hopeless" and "not even good for rough ashlar" meaning incapable being fashioned into a masonry stone, a metaphor for uselessness and/or stupidity. This doesn't exhaust the pointed personal criticism deployed and doesn't even begin to discuss the repeated accusations of sockpuppetry without substantial evidence. I suggest you drop the stick here and take the content dispute back to the talk page where it belongs. Jahaza (talk) 00:40, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  I just saw your message, and I'll take your advice to the heart. May someone close this topic? tgeorgescu (talk) 00:57, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  Also, you need to be cognizant of the difference between an essay and a policy or guideline. DEAD HORSE is an essay (as have been a number of other pages you have suggested are being "violated". Jahaza (talk) 00:26, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Jahaza: Billyball998 has lost the article talk page dispute, the WP:RSN dispute, and the WP:FTN dispute. It is high time to admit that removing the mainstream academic consensus from the article has definitively failed. They may become a productive Wikipedia editor only after publicly admitting that their attempt has failed. Otherwise they are just wasting our time with peddling claptrap. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:46, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  This is entirely untrue,

  (RSN: Book of Daniel is asking you to reformat your appeal, no one has even looked at the sources because of how you asked.

  the one comment on Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Book of Daniel is disagreeing with you (I believe).

  The talk page discussion is still underway, consensus is not reached Billyball998 (talk) 00:58, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  Billyball998, I was preparing to disagree to some extent with tgeorgescu, but that was after seeing you blocked as a SOCK. There is no way i would now because it would be completely unproductive. There are eleven pages of talk archives for that article, much filled with arguments similar to your own. Editors such as warshy are clearly tired of having to drag out the same sources and explanations over and over. The discussion has sprawled across four noticeboards and there is clear opposition to your edit and arguments. This is certainly WP:FRINGE content that would require careful handling and agreement from multiple editors. It will not be reflected in the article as you have proposed, and after a clear warning from some admin i think a topic ban would be appropriate if this continues. fiveby(zero) 01:33, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you, i disagree with the fringe characterization as the criticisms are supported by clear scholarship, please keep in mind fringe does not mean minority or even extreme minorty, it relates to the attitude towards scholarship. That being said I understand that I was not able to convince other editors. Have a nice day/evening/night. Billyball998 (talk) 01:55, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support This user is clearly a pretty large drain on editor time/effort, and provides very little in the way of benefit in improving this article space. a TBAN would be a good way to incentivize the user to improve other areas of wikipedia where they can be more impartial, and perhaps return back to this topic at some later date. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 14:19, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose a topic ban at this time. What I can see is that User:Billyball998 has views that are not supported by academic consensus and can be considered fringe, and that User:tgeorgescu is using a bludgeon to "win" content disputes. They have not made a case that the support of fringe viewpoints by Billyball998 is tendentious or otherwise disruptive. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:59, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Robert McClenon above. Also, coming to ANI with a content dispute and citing WP:DEADHORSE is rather funny. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:58, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Concern about behaviour during an ongoing RfC at Republics of Russia

The talk page of Republics of Russia has been turned into a mess by Jargo Nautilus and Cambial Yellowing during a delicate RfC. The diffs:

• At 23:44, 28 October 2022, Jargo Nautilus (JN) made a totally unprovoked and incomprehensible personal attack on Seryo93, an editor who had not even posted anything in that RfC: I caught him blatantly lying … he was gaslighting me and other editors on purpose.[20]
• At 00:01, 29 October 2022 JN stood on a soapbox: If it comes to the point that Wikipedia actually ends up endorsing some of Russia's criminal actions, then I will boycott this website,[21] Russia has brought its downfall upon itself by electing the criminal Vladimir Putin,[22] Russia ... a lawless wasteland of bandits[23] while also being unnecessarily rude to me:Gitz's logic regarding sourcing is a bit nonsensical.[24]
• I noticed but didn't particularly mind JN's soapboxing and rudeness. However, three days later I noticed the personal attack on Seryo93 and I thought it was unacceptable. I replied to it [25] and I also collapsed the off-topic and soapboxing remarks.[26] I contacted JN on their talk page to address these issues.[27] JN denied any wrongdoing and deleted the whole thread becauseThis is ultimately a waste of time, so I am wiping it clean.[28] Waste of time notwithstanding, JN stared a long conversation on my talk page (this one).
• Immediately before starting that conversation, JN removed from the article talk page both their personal attack on Seryo93 and my reply to it.[29] JN also removed the collapsible box I had applied to their remarks, and heavily edited their remarks or removed them altogether from the article talk page.[30] Note that these comments had been posted 3 days and half earlier and I had already reacted to them by applying the collapsible box.
• I reverted JN’s removal of both their personal attack on Seryo93 and my reply to it, and I explained You shouldn't delete comments! And collapsing off topic comments is fine. Have you ever read WP:TALK?.[31]
• JN made a partial revert of my revert: they deleted their personal attack on Seryo93 and left my reply to it in a collapsible box with the title "off-topic."[32]
• On my talk page Deepfriedokra commented Jargo Nautilus Please do not edit other people's talk page contents. Please do not change your own talk page comments after they have been responded to.[33] While they were probably meaning "article talk page" rather than user talk pages, the message was clear.
• Encouraged by this, I restored the status quo ante - both JN's personal attack and my reply to it. I also restored JN’s soapboxing comments in their original drafting. However, I didn't restore my collapsible box on them[34]. So this was now the talk page as it used to be before my intervention and before JN edited and removed both their old comments and mine.
• However, Cambial Yellowing (CY) restored JN's edited version of their own comments and explained restoring unreplied comments to version by the editor who wrote them[35]. CY also left a warning on my talk page (vandalism)[36] and commented on the article talk page that It's generally acceptable for an editor to amend their own comments to which there has not yet been a reply. So your editing of another editor's comments is not acceptable[37].
• I believe that JN should not have edited and removed their comments because it had already been three days (not a "short while" per WP:TALK#REPLIED) since they had posted them, and because I had already reacted to their comments by putting them in a collapsible box. CY doesn’t agree and we had a discussion on this here, where CY speaks about my inappropriate refactoring and pointless, reaching wikilawyering to try to excuse failing to observe conduct policy. CY was trying to justify JN's disregard for WP:TALK by muddying the waters and making it look like I was the one who misbehaved.
• CY has been both uncivil and tendentious in that talk page since the beginning of the RfC. They had tried to modify the opening sentence without consensus in a way that strongly affected the ongoing RfC[38][39] and had engaged in edit warring on a related issue[40][41][42][43]. Once I had expressed and argued for a view different from theirs in the RfC, they replied that If you're not keen on that policy [WP:OR] this may not be the website for you[44] provoking the reaction of a fellow editor Furius, it comes across as rude and patronising.
• Apart from restoring JN's edited comments and reproaching me for not respecting talk page guidelines, CY provided JN with "good advice" on their talk page[45]. CY encouraged JN to edit their comments yet again because your edit summary suggests you edited them at the behest of another editor. Worse still, CY suggested to JN that they were justified in calling a fellow editor a liar because of WP:IUC: you may find this section - part of WP:5P4 - of interest (note point 2(d)). Obviously CY was wrong: even if Seryo93 had lied in the past (which none of us have reason to believe) it would be entirely inappropriate to call them a liar in an RfC where they have never posted.
• I think that this is just battleground mentality, disregard for talk guidelines and lack of civility on CY's part. I contacted CY on their talk page[46] and they reverted because Not of interest[47]. So here we are.
• Final note. I'm not a Putin supporter, but I find JN's view that Putin supporters should be permanently prohibited from editing Wikipedia simply appalling. Wikipedia does not discriminate editors on the basis of political views, as I tried to explain to them in this conversation on my talk page here. IMHO these two editors should be prevented from editing in the EE area.Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:51, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Statement Jargo Nautilus

Firstly, I have not replied to the RfC in days. Secondly, I am not in "cahoots" ("you and your pal") with User:Cambial Yellowing. I have had no direct contact with that user (except very recently at my talk page). Thirdly, I am very busy at the moment and probably can't reply to this thread for the next three weeks. Fourthly, I would hardly describe your own behaviour as appropriate, including the fact that this dispute was started by you when you collapsed my comments. And also, for over a day I believe, I didn't actually respond to you. You spent a considerable length of time arguing with Cambial Yellowing in my absence, and that isn't my fault because I didn't ask him to argue with you on my behalf. So, even though you may view Cambial Yellowing's actions as an escalation on my part, they actually had nothing to do with me. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 22:04, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Gitz, your logic yet again does not track. You originally collapsed my comments on the charge of being "off topic" and "soapbox" (charges which haven't been verified by a third party, I will add), so I deleted the parts that I thought might have caused my comments to be flagged, since I was under the impression that you wanted me to remove the offending parts. However, remarkably, after I did this, I was only met with more outrage from you. Apparently, you actually wanted me to keep the information there, perhaps in order to make me "look bad". I'm not sure how it makes sense that you are angry at me for simultaneously "writing inappropriate things" and then subsequently deleting those things after I was told that they might cause offence. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:26, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

The first edit (deleting my comments) was my original attempt at conflict resolution. Gitz has highlighted this as a "crime" or an "escalation" for unknown reasons. Clearly, with that edit, I was attempting to improve the situation, not to worsen it. I deleted the parts that I thought might be considered "soap-boxy". My comments hadn't been replied to yet, so I figured it was okay to delete them. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:23, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Note: I have not commented in the "Republics of Russia" article ever since I deleted some of my comments on November 1 (it's now November 4). Ever since then, I have only been interacting with Gitz at his user talk page. As I've said, my time is limited at the moment. | Update: I have commented on the talk page again after three days of absence, on November 4. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:36, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Statement Jargo Nautilus #2 - In light of the fact that no administrators have commented in this ANI discussion after two days and yet it is already impressively lengthy, I'm going to have to conclude that this ANI discussion has only served as a platform for derailment rather than as an actual attempt at conflict resolution. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 12:02, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Other comments

This extremely verbose comment from Gitz6666, which I have skimmed but not read, is I assume occasioned by reminders to both Jargo Nautilus and to Gitz6666 of the importance of observing WP:TPO, and especially so during a contentious RFC. The template used was Template:Uw-tpv2. Both editors edited each other's comments. Gitz6666 first hid Jargo's rather prolix series of comments, citing OFFTOPIC but neglecting to err on the side of caution.[48] Jargo then removed two of his own comments, to one of which Gitz6666 had responded, and removed Gitz6666's response.[49] Gitz6666 restores; Jargo then removes his own comment and collapses Gitz6666's reply.[50] Gitz6666 then removes the collapse, and changes Jargo's other comments to an earlier version.[51].

The only reason any of my comments about this are on article talk, is that Gitz6666 insisted on responding in a thread on article talk. The content of that discussion, in which Gitz6666 merely seeks to justify ignoring WP:TPO, is relevant context.

I reject Gitz6666's specious accusations above, including a fabricated charge of "edit warring" and the claim that I suggested Jargo was "justified in calling a fellow editor a liar" - a phrase and a notion of his own invention. The charges he makes are refuted by the diffs he purports to adduce in support of his claims. Cambial — foliar❧ 22:49, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Could you please explain what did you mean when you said note point 2(d) (per WP:IUC) in your conversation with JN quoted above? Who was the liar you were referring to? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 06:38, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I made no reference to a liar: that's yet another example of the complete fabrications you've made in your comments on this noticeboard. Cambial — foliar❧ 16:18, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Gitz, I would advise to avoid casting WP:ASPERSIONS. You have accused me and Cambial Yellowing of collaborating, which is not true aside from what can be seen publicly (which is not that much; I've interacted with you -- Gitz -- more than I have with him). This comment of yours was especially direct in this accusation -- "you and your pal". And the phrase "your conversation with JN" in your statement above is seemingly suggestive of this accusation. It certainly wasn't much of a conversation; Cambial Yellowing left two medium-length messages at my talk page, and I left one medium-length reply, and that's it. It's more of a brief "chat" if anything. Indeed, Cambial Yellowing's messages to me are not strongly relevant to the statement that he has made above, which means you are going into WP:TALKOFFTOPIC territory. | EDIT: Also, what is this quote -- "good advice" -- in the segment at the top here a reference to? Is this another accusation? I have been searching through the history of this three-way dispute and I can't find that precise phrase anywhere else but here. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 07:35, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

In terms of Seryo "lying", you can see what I am referring to in the most recent discussion on his talk page. Effectively, he repeatedly kept misquoting another user by changing the wording of a phrase that they had said -- specifically changing "in Europe" to "in the world". This incident occurred in a discussion on Talk:Russia. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 12:59, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I have now had time to go through Gitz6666's bullet points above. The level of obfuscation, distortion, and outright fabrication in Gitz6666's post is so extreme that I am left with the impression Gitz6666 is unable to edit in this topic area without resort to totally inappropriate conduct. I suggest a WP:BOOMERANG for Gitz6666 in the form of an indefinite article ban and a twelve-month topic ban in the Russia and Russia-Ukraine conflict areas.

Re: the above -

Gitz6666 claims that I left a warning on [Gitz] talk page (vandalism)[119] and commented on the article talk page. This gives the false and inaccurate impression that a) my warning was for vandalism and b) that I commented on article talk right away. In reality my warning was the normal template for "Editing, correcting, or deleting others' talk page comments" personalised with "It's always best to strictly observe WP:TPO, and particularly so in a formal RFC. Where comments have not been replied to it is generally acceptable for an editor to make amendments to their own earlier comments." My comment on article talk was made later and only in response to Gitz6666 starting a thread on talk after he had first responded on his talk page.

Gitz6666 claims that I was trying to justify JN's disregard for WP:TALK by muddying the waters and making it look like I was the one who misbehaved. Gitz6666 gives no evidence for this groundless, dishonest claim. Leaving reminders on two editor's pages for the same thing - editing each other's comments - would be no way to "muddy the waters" were that someone's aim, but Gitz6666 does not let mere logic get in the way of his fabrications.

Gitz6666 claims comments on talk were uncivil and tendentious. The only talk diff they refer to in this paragraph is this one, a response to Gitz6666's suggestion that rather than requiring RS that support southeast Ukraine as Republics of Russia, I ought to have RS saying that the Republic of Crimea, DPR and LPR are not federal subjects/constitutive elements of the Russian Federation. Gitz6666 is at this point moving into sealioning territory. My response pointing out the absurdity of approaching sourcing this way (assuming something is true until RS deny it) remains accurate. The part Gitz6666 says he objects to is justified and objectively true, and I'm happy to repeat it here: "Content must be reliably sourced. If you're not keen on that policy this may not be the website for you."

Gitz6666 claims that CY provided JN with "good advice". He puts the phrase "good advice" in quotes, despite that the phrase is entirely his own invention. Gitz6666 claims that CY encouraged JN to edit their comments yet again. In reality I pointed out to Jargo that I had restored his comments to the last version created by him, and to check this was the right version.(see here)

Gitz6666 then claims that CY suggested to JN that they were justified in calling a fellow editor a liar. This is not a distortion, but an outright fabrication, as can be seen from the diff. I began Regarding the comment in this edit summary, linking to where Jargo says Indeed, as far as I can tell, it's not a crime on Wikipedia to tell a fib on a talk page, but it's definitely very annoying.. I pointed out to Jargo that lying is considered uncivil in Wikipedia conduct guidelines. I made no comment about another editor, Seryo, whom I know nothing about, nor about whether anything is "justified" – a word and a phrase of Gitz6666's own invention.

Gitz6666 says he contacted CY on their talk page, which is true, but they neglect to mention that I already indicated in the thread Gitz6666 started on article talk that I was not interested in attempts to justify ignoring WP:TPO in a contentious RFC. Given that Gitz6666 had seen that, it should be unsurprising to him that I had no interest in his doing so at even greater length and with even more specious arguments on my talk page. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:33, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I'm involved at the RfC, I'm not going to add anything here. I feel the situation would best be served with less heat. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 14:59, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - I have not actually edited any of my statements in the RfC at "Talk:Republics of Russia" after Cambial Yellowing messaged me on my talk page, so it's a bit of a moot point how Gitz is suggesting that Cambial Yellowing was inviting me to cause more trouble when I basically haven't caused any further trouble over there. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 17:37, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Proposal: Indefinite article ban and twelve-month topic ban for Gitz6666

Given the extensive degree of distortion, omission, and outright fabrication that Gitz6666 engages in in his OP here, some kind of WP:BOOMERANG is appropriate in this instance.

I note that Gitz6666 is already indefinitely blocked on both the Italian and Spanish Wikipedias for incompatibility with the Project, irredeemable violation of Wiki etiquette, and block evasion (Italian), disruptive edits, and edit wars (Spanish).

On the article talk, Gitz6666 has pushed a POV that is a common talking point for the English-language editions of Russian media: that Russian constitutional law has established southeast Ukraine as part of Russia. Gitz6666 does so

• here, saying the member states of a federation are determined by the federal constitution, not by international law or international consensus
• here, saying In fact it is obvious that the constitutive elements of a federation are determined by the federal constitution rather than international law or international consensus
• here, suggesting sourcing policy ought to be turned on its head in saying Do you have a RS saying that the Republic of Crimea, DPR and LPR are not federal subjects/constitutive elements of the Russian Federation?
• here, saying I have been asked to provide sources to support the claim that, according to Russian constitutional law [the regions of southeast Ukraine] are federal subject of the Russian Federation [emphasis added]. In fact Gitz6666 was asked for sources which directly support the notion of southeast Ukraine as Republics of Russia, which of course do not exist.

Gitz6666 has previously been civil, and his pushing of this "Constitutional law establishes fact" line can best be described as WP:Sealioning. As he has now escalated this POV-pushing to a crass attempt at WP:SANCTIONGAMING in which he fabricates actions and quotes by other editors, I propose an indefinite article ban on Republics of Russia and a twelve-month topic ban on Russia and Russia-Ukraine conflict articles. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:33, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:33, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - At this point in time, I don't support banning Gitz outright. Requesting him to get banned would make me no better than him, who has just recently requested to get me banned. I believe that the best course of action right now is to de-escalate the dispute between the three users involved. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 17:43, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - I am an uninvolved editor who does not wish to become involved in this matter. I would like however to point out the very similar threads here and at Arbcom in late June 2022. I *was* involved in those, and still believe that Gitz misrepresented a source, as I discussed there (and do not have the bandwidth to re-litigate). As above, Gitz was filing a complaint about someone pushing back on his inevitably prolific pro-Russian spin. Perhaps that may shed some light on the matter. I will find and post links. Elinruby (talk) 02:24, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Links:

• AN/I

• Arbcom Elinruby (talk) 02:44, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
• Comment Cambial would like to turn this dispute over behaviour on the talk page into a dispute over the content of the article. I'd be happy to oblige, but this is not the place to do so. Therefore I've just posted this comment on the article talk page. I hope it will help create some interest in an RfC that is languishing for lack of contributions. So far we have had no less than 18 comments from Cambial, 23 from Jargo and 20 from me, thus bludgeoning the discussion and hampering the participation of other users: everybody's contribution is welcome. From now on, I'm abandoning that RfC. I suggest that Cambial and Jargo do the same.

Instead of replying to Cambial about contents, I'd like to ask them the following:

1. Are you sure that it was appropriate for Jargo Nautilus to edit their off-topic comments, remove them and remove the collapsible box? It had been more than three days since they had posted them, and Jargo did not used any <ins> or new timestamp when they edited them. Most importantly, I had already reacted to their comments by putting them in a collapsible box titled off-topic and soapboxing comments. In the edit summary I had explained collapsing off-topic and soapboxing comments per WP:TALKOFFTOPIC.[52] Are you sure that, in doing so, I hadn't already replied to them (per WP:TALK#REPLIED)? I gave you my reasons on this[53] and you replied that No-one is interested in pointless, reaching wikilawyering to try to excuse failing to observe conduct policy.[54] Are you still sure you were right in point of policy?
2. In a conversation with Jargo on their talk page you said the following about editing their own comments in the box: if no-one has replied to them by all means remove/edit them. After you had restored Jargo's edited comments, you wrote to them Please check that this is the version of the comments you wish to remain, as your edit summary suggests you edited them at the behest of another editor.[55] If I understand you correctly, you were encouraging them to further edit their comments. Or do you have a different explanation for your suggestion?
3. You quoted our policy on "lying" as incivility per WP:IUC on Jargo's talk page. You also chose the subject "Fibs" as the name of the section you opened there.[56] Let me understand your reasoning: Jargo deletes from the talk page their personal attack and my reply to it, and in the edit summary Jargo writes that it's not a crime on Wikipedia to tell a fib on a talk page, but it's definitely very annoying.[57] You then feel the need to contact Jargo on their talk page to let them know (my words) "no, look, it's not just annoying: if Seryo93 was telling fibs that would have actually been against policy!" Does that make sense to you?

Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:20, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Brief answers to questions: 1. Yes. Your editing of Jargo's comments does not fit any of the exceptions to WP:TPO. 2. I was neither encouraging them nor discouraging them. Your interpretation of that sentence is sufficiently removed from usual English meaning that one has to assume that either a. your level of English is insufficient to edit this wiki or b. you are WP:GASLIGHTING to try to make another editor's actions appear utterly different to reality. If Jargo had edited their own comments, that would have been acceptable given that no-one had replied to them and your immediately preceding inappropriate editing of the same comments. 3. If an editor lies that is considered uncivil. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:55, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Comment #1 - Gitz, your comment would make sense if I hadn't already abandoned the RfC four days ago. I haven't commented there since November 1 (except for a brief comment on November 4 saying the same thing I'm saying now). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:45, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I would like to highlight the fact that Gitz wrote a 2,427‎-character essay within the RfC merely seven minutes before writing above that he is planning to abandon the RfC. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 11:43, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Comment #2 - Based on what Gitz has written above, it seems that they are unwilling to resolve the dispute. Some of their claims just don't make sense. For example, they unilaterally (i.e. without approval from an admin or another experienced third party) collapsed some of my comments in an "off-topic" template, and they told me on my talk page that the comments were inappropriate (according to Gitz). So, I deleted around 70% of the comments that had been collapsed by Gitz, leaving only the parts that I thought were core to my point. I don't see anything wrong with this particular action. It doesn't make sense that Gitz views the deletion of these parts as some sort of a crime, especially since he was the one who told me that those parts allegedly did not belong on the talk page and needed to be hidden/removed. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:54, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Indeed it would be very much appreciated if some admins and/or experienced users were to help us clarify the point of policy here above addressed (point 1 of my last comment, comment#2 of Jorge's reply). 1) Do involved editors have the right to apply a collapsible box to an off-topic discussion/off-topic comments? 2) Once the collapsible box has been applied, has the author of the off-topic comments the right to modify them, delete them, and remove the collapsible box from the talk page? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:04, 5 November 2022 (UTC) P.S. Note that there is no real dispute between us about the off-topic/soapboxing nature of the comments: the point under discussion is how best to react to these kinds of situations, which I imagine are recurrent, per WP:TALKOFFTOPIC.; edited 12:29, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Gitz, it would be appreciated if you would stop rehashing points that haven't been verified by admins or experienced users. That would be a good start. Indeed, if you are wrong about some of your points, that would not be a good look. So, I would advise waiting until experienced users arrive and letting them tell their opinions, rather than predicting the things that you think they will say. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 11:20, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Quite amazing, but not surprising, that in response to my pointing out the fabrications and distortions in your original post you respond with more of the same. You claim, Cambial would like to turn this dispute over behaviour on the talk page into a dispute over the content of the article. You provide no evidence for this whatsoever: nor could you, given that it's a fabrication on your part. This is about you trying to push a completely inappropriate, Russian-government-centric POV. It's also about your pointless, unhelpful (bordering on uncivil) contrariness towards another editor and your inappropriate editing of their comments. It's also about you making things up here at ANI.

On the pushing of a Russian-government-centric POV, I've already provided diffs above where you directly state that what we include as Republics of Russia should be determined entirely by the Russian Constitution (e.g. [58][59][60] Another editor has pointed out above that you have been pushing this POV on other articles. I also note that you have pushed a similar Russian-government POV at War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, suggesting we don't need a source saying that [alleged Ukrainian killing] was a war crime[61], and that the representatives of the Luhansk People's Republic called it a war crime[62] (you cite TASS); editors Volunteer Marek,[63][64] and Adoring nanny[65] have had to remind you that the opinions of Russian or Russian-puppet politicians do not establish fact.

On the contrariness towards another editor, you really shot yourself in the foot on this one. Having read Jargo's comments, I see quite how absurd your actions actually were. To wit (and for the benefit of admin):

• Jargo writes a series of posts. [66][67][68]
• You respond to one of them (about international vs constitutional law). [69]
• Jargo gives his view on Russian constitutional law, and writes another series of posts. [70][71][72]
• You reply to an earlier, unrelated post. [73]
• You then collapse Jargo's comments about constitutional law (but not your own), claiming they are "soapboxing" and citing "off-topic". [74]
• Jargo, having seen that you hid his comments about constitutional law (but not your own), and your citing of "off-topic", deletes the parts he thinks are not directly relevant and condenses the rest. [75]
• Jargo then deletes the earlier, unrelated post and your reply to it. [76]
• You restore the earlier post to which you had replied (and your reply). [77]
• Jargo deletes his earlier post (and collapses your reply). [78]
• You uncollapse your reply and restore Jargo's earlier post. You also change the series of posts by Jargo, that you collapsed citing off-topic, to their earlier version (the version that you hid saying off-topic soapboxing). [79]
• I remind first Jargo to observe WP:TPO and WP:REDACT,[80] and then you to observe WP:TPO.[81] I also stress to Jargo that with his own comments he should edit only if they have not been replied to.[82]

That you chose to first hide a series of comments as off-topic soap-boxing, and then, when the editor changes them to try to be more on-topic, you edit their comments to the version you claimed was off-topic, shows a level of contrariness that suggests you are WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopaedia. Your series of fabrications in your original post here suggest the same. I have therefore struck my proposal above and propose an indefinite block. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:44, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Behaviour during the ANI discussion

Gitz, what is this? With this edit, you have amended a comment onto the end of Cambial Yellowing's comments, and you have not signed it. At the moment, it looks like something that Cambial Yellowing has written, rather than you. Please explain your edit below, and if there has been a mistake, then please fix it promptly. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 11:27, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, that's a weird mistake - I had intended to add that "post scriptum" to my comment. I'm now moving it to where it belongs. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:23, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Gitz6666 is NOTHERE

Gitz6666 has been pushing common talking points of the Russian government public relations machine at at least two, possibly more articles. A number of editors have also indicated POV-pushing on Gitz6666's part at this noticeboard and at Arbcom. Gitz6666 has also collapsed replies to their comments citing off-topic; when the editor who wrote these replies tried to focus them on the topic, Gitz6666 insisted on changing them back to the version Gitz6666 had claimed was off-topic: this shows an extraordinary degree of contrariness or editing other's comments just for the sake of it – highly disruptive. They have also made a series of fabricated and unsupported claims about other editor's actions here on ANI. Together, these strongly suggest Gitz6666 is not here to build an encyclopaedia. They have already been blocked on the Italian and Spanish Wikis for similar reasons.ITES I propose a similar block on this wiki. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:45, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support as proposer, for the reasons summarised above and outlined in detail in the previous section. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:45, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

This proposal looks like Battleground retaliation and raises questions about Cambial Yellowing's ability or willingness to collaborate respectfully with good faith contributors on complex and controversial subject matter. SPECIFICO talk 14:26, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

While your input is always interesting Specifico, your own inability to collaborate on far-less controversial topics, even though you claim to have expertise in that topic area, indicates you would be a poor judge of the nature of other editor's actions. Cambial — foliar❧ 14:49, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Apparently Cambial has serious problems with civility and is incapable or receiving the slightest criticism without overreacting, attempting to undermine the interlocutor's credibility and making personal attacks. The topic of this discussion is Cambial's, Jargo's and mine "inability to cooperate", not Specifico's. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:13, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@Gitz6666: The topic that you started this under was in fact "concern about behaviour". Much of the behaviour you went on to describe turned out to be fabricated, to be sure, but the ostensible subject was different to "inability to cooperate". Neither Jargo nor I have had a problem collaborating or discussing, despite contentious disagreement, with each other or with other editors on the page. It is only you that has caused extensive problems both at that page and others, which have led to your complete ban on two other wikis. It is only you that has been difficult to collaborate with, continually pushing a notion that "Russian constitutional law establishes fact" without regard to the content policies of this website. It is only you that has moved from a simple reminder to respect the talk page guidelines, in a series of bizarre escalations, to the extensive series of fabrications about other editor's actions that you make on this noticeboard. Cambial — foliar❧ 10:11, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

So far you've used the word fabrication, which implies intentions, no less than 12 times in the course of this discussion, yet you have failed to share even one single diff showing a lie on my part. My account of our interactions was correct and, I believe, it shows your disregard for our policies and guidelines (TALK, CIV, NPA, AGV) and your battlefield mentality (NPOV) meaning your inability to cooperate in the EE area. Moreover, your remarkable behaviour during this discussion (I propose tban! - I support tban - silence follows - I propose nothere! - I support nothere - silence and coughing from the audience – more personal attacks, more accusations) is verging on the bizarre and suggests that it's time for an admin to handle the matter, possibly with some consideration for the high level of distress and discomfort shown by all editors involved.

Finally, since you mentioned my history on it.wiki and es.wiki, I intend to publish a short explanation (with diff) of these events, which I will post on my user page, so as not to burden this discussion with other irrelevant materials. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:19, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I referred to fabrications, not lies. You have made various statements above which are demonstrably false. I make no judgement about intention, but it would be interesting to see you try to explain how some of these statements were not intentional. It is again unsurprising that you exhibit such a degree of unselfconsciousness that you inaccurately accuse others of having failed to share even one single diff, after making an OP in which you make accusations for which you offer not a shred of evidence. Given that the diffs you appeal to above are your comments on this noticeboard in this section, linking them seems redundant, but for completeness they are your OP (I detail the fabrications in a post below it); your response to another post (you ask Who was the liar you were referring to? – given the number of times you've linked to my 2 comments at Jargo's page, you cannot be unaware of the fact that I made no reference to any "liar"); and this post (you claim Cambial would like to turn this dispute over behaviour on the talk page into a dispute over the content of the article - again you offer no evidence). Your bizarre speculations about an imaginary "audience" speaks to the performative nature of your posts here, which suggests they are designed largely to waste editor and admin time. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:04, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

"Audience" refers to the community and to the admins who will read and hopefully see through this better than you and me, including the semantics of "fabrication" (as distinct from lie and not implying ill-intentions) that you've just... fabricated![83] Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:29, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I referred to fabrications, not lies.

Let's not play rhetorical games. If you accuse someone of fabrications, you are accusing them of making up something they know is false, aka lying. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:33, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

It is possible to say things that aren't true, and also believe them. Gitz for example firmly believes that Wikipedia is unfairly portraying the Russian invasion of Ukraine. He also believes that Ukrainian territory is part of Russia, apparently, and that a Russian law proves that this is so. He is now complaining that these assertions weren't received as he thought they should be, shrug. As civilly as I can, I would like to say that a thing does not become true merely because Putin said so and Gitz believes it, and has posted wall after wall of text about it. Elinruby (talk) 04:46, 7 November 2022 (UTC) 04:42, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

this thread is now turning into a workshop on the notion of "fabrication". As the discussion is quite long and few editors will read it carefully, I'm forced to rectify Elinruby's claims: I've never said the things they attribute to me. It's pure (intentional? unintentional?) fabrication. Some of them are too generic (Wikipedia is unfairly portraying the Russian invasion of Ukraine) and others are entirely false (He also believes that Ukrainian territory is part of Russia), not to say insulting. They are not a reasonable interpretation of my claim that the number and name of Russia's internal subdivisions (republics, oblasts, etc.) are determined by Russian public law. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:46, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Why would Russian public law make Ukrainian territory part of Russia? For purposes of the Russian secret police, perhaps, but for purposes of the English-language Wikipedia Putin's flights of fancy are not RS for our encyclopedia. I was mercifully uninvolved in the original dispute here, and don't know who did what to whose hatnote; frankly I don't care and think you should be ashamed of yourself for whining about it here. It's hilarious that you complain, in an utter lack of self-awareness, about the length of a thread largely made up of your own walls of whatever. You routinely post torrents of legalese that exhaust those who disagree with you into just wanting you to go away. And yeah, by the way, by your own definition, you just accused me of making stuff up. But never mind all that. My point is that if you are going to maintain that the massacre at Bucha was exaggerated (see also All Russian war crimes are only "alleged") or that children taken from their parents aren't *really* kidnapped (see "interests of the child" 22:13, 5 June) because Russia passed a law that made it legal to take them, then any reasonable person would expect you to meet with a certain amount of exasperation. However "civil" you may be in your utter certitude that you are correct, you insert stupefying amounts of spin into the encyclopedia. I have dealt with hundreds of editors on dozens of highly contentious topics, and you're the only one in all these years that I have ever had to instruct to stop speaking either to me or about me. Rectify, my left foot. Obviously, it is no longer reasonable now to expect you not to answer me here, which is why I have tried so hard to stay out of this, but kindly refrain this time from the dissertations on my talk page. I have watched you intimidate or discourage one good editor after another and am unlikely to change my opinion that you are a serial bully who for some reason truly believes in irredentism, and a net negative to the project who should at a minimum be topic-banned from anything to do with Russia. Now if you will excuse me, I feel the need for a shower. Elinruby (talk) 09:47, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

When does a crime ever stop being alleged? Even some people who were historically sentenced to death in the United States eventually became rectified of their convictions decades later. Crimes are never 100% proven nor disproven. Even the court of law's verdict is merely an opinion. Hence, placing the descriptor "alleged" before every Russian war crime is semantics. The Russian war crimes will never be proven beyond all reasonable doubt (unless captured in video footage). Most war crimes never get proven or punished. | Clarification: This is an argument against Gitz's suggestion that the Russian war crimes haven't yet been proven, so we must describe them as "alleged". Jargo Nautilus (talk) 06:26, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes, this formulation is much better than Reading through some of the comments left by Gitz here, I think I am losing brain cells by the second, so I'm going to stop now before I need to be placed in an intensive care unit.[84][85] It's a pity you don't understand the notion of personal attack. This, for instance, is another recent one: Hopefully, you can help yourself on how to become a better person and find your way onto the right side of history.[86] You have no right to write things like these on this platform and I hope the closing admin will not let them go unnoticed.
• I also hope the closer will uphold WP:CIV and WP:AGF, and provide some clarity on how WP:TALK#REPLIED should be interpreted in a case like this.
• Shouldn't Cambial's funny headings be removed from this thread per WP:TALKHEADPOV? Or is it better to leave them there because they are another sign of disregard for WP:TALK?
• Regarding the off-topic stuff mentioned by Elinruby and Jargo (Bucha, kidnapping, "alleged", etc.) if asked by a good-faithed editor I can provide diffs showing that my comments have been grossly misrepresented here. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:05, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Don't let him goad you, JN. It's true that you need to find another place to vent; we talked about that. But don't answer him here or he will request clarifications and diffs and claim to be misunderstood until you're suddenly the mean one because you "hate Russians". Or are "fooled by Ukrainians" or whatever. Gitz, it's a pattern with you and the diffs are right there, but as far as this particular thread goes, I ask again, *Why would Russian public law make Ukrainian territory part of Russia?* it's the mind-bending nature of this conviction of yours that is the heart of the issue here, I think. Can I declare myself a country and pass a law that says that your account no longer belongs to you? How about if I appropriate the International Space Station, let's say because a legend in my country says that its inhabitants have always been destined to rule from up in the sky??? I would almost be ok with you believing this stuff. But you keep dragging people to AN/I for supposedly being rude to you when they won't let you convince them how right you are. Elinruby (talk) 09:37, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Of course, this is not the appropriate place to respond to Gitz. He is clearly trying to start trouble. My previous response was merely about the one point he was making. Meta discussions are neither needed nor wanted. Indeed, my original point still stands... at which point do we draw the line between something that is "proven" versus "unproven"? As I said, even people who get executed on death row can eventually be deemed not guilty fifty years or so later. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 14:09, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Gitz, you would benefit from acquiring a sense of humour. That's the great thing about the country where I live; humour abounds. In that sense, I see nothing wrong with "funny" headings per se. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 14:25, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

@Elinruby, the question you asked twice in bold, as if you were shouting something very topical, urgent and conclusive, actually makes no sense, neither here (where we discuss behaviour) nor in the RfC at Republics of Russia. It is obvious that Russian public law cannot make Ukrainian territory part of Russia: no one has ever argued otherwise. But Jargo, Cambial and I were not discussing about Russia–Ukraine border nor about Borders of Russia: we were discussing about Republics of Russia. And it is precisely Russian public law that regulates the constitutive elements of the Russian Federation by determining, among other things, which republics are member of the Federation and how they are called. Analogously, Provinces of China lists Taiwan Province despite the fact that the People's Republic of China does not rule on that territory. So your argument is irrelevant and in any case it does not belong to this discussion. I suggest you continue to discuss in the user talk pages with editors complaining about your sanctimoneous insults[87] and long rant[88] instead of bringing them here. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:33, 8 November 2022 (UT

Well it certainly made no sense to me when at 07:46, 7 November 2022 (UTC), in this very thread, you said I was "insulting" and my remarks were "not a reasonable interpretation of (your) claim that the number and name of Russia's internal subdivisions (republics, oblasts, etc.) are determined by Russian public law.". So....if nobody let alone you ever said that Russian public law was our RS for whether or not Kherson and the Donbas were of Russia, which one of the other words in that sentence did you say or not say? The man on my talk page is not part of this and perhaps he misread or misspoke. Or perhaps you did. I am all AGF over here just waiting to hear how it is that "the number and name of Russia's internal subdivisions (republics, oblasts, etc.) are determined by Russian public law" actually clearly means "Russian public law cannot make Ukrainian territory part of Russia: no one has ever argued otherwise." and yet-- didn't you just now draw a parallel to Provinces of China, where you say that Taiwan is listed? Maybe *you* should go talk to the man on my talk page, and the two of you can put you heards together....shrug. You can withdraw your complaint at any time, you know. You're the one that wanted other people chastised. If there is some sort of language or medical issue here I am happy to help. I told you that before. But from here it really does look like you are denying that you said something that you clearly did say. 13:25, 8 November 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elinruby (talk • contribs)

If there is some sort of language or medical issue here I am happy to help. OK, I'm done with this, I'm out. I will no longer reply to these editors. I'm not withdrawing my complaint: I'm still asking for administrative oversight and action, and I'd like them to include also the behaviours held here during this discussion. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:10, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Well-meaning editor who has problems with verifiability

Maitrey M. Telang (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user mostly edits on pages regarding the Indian armed forces, but most (nearly all) of the time they don't give any sources to back up their changes (see [89], [90], [91], [92], [93], [94], [95], and many others). Despite several warnings, they still don't seem to get the point, sadly. BilletsMauves^€500 18:51, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Commenting so it doesn't get archived BilletsMauves^€500 18:12, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@BilletsMauves: I checked their latest edit, and it was actually pretty solid as our current article on the Sea King says that variant doesn't have ASW systems (source). Seeing as they've slowed down the pace of their edits (possibly? hard to say), and you haven't gotten any comments here, then you might want to re-file the report at WP:AE next time if they pick the behavoir back up. Doug Weller gave them an alert 3 months ago, so they're formally aware of WP:DS related to India. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 03:20, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Bradleyk360 copying and pasting premise from other websites

User:Bradleyk360 has been adding premise section to Tv shows which are blatant copy and paste/English translation from the network that aired the respective Tv shows.[96][97][98][99][100] He has been warned by three editors in the past regarding this issue. TheHotwiki (talk) 14:47, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

User: HotWiki has asked me to attribute the content that I was adding which I have done. it is fully attributed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradleyk360 (talk • contribs) 15:07, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Lets review your edit I reverted.[101] Not only it is a blatant copy and paste from GMA Network's press release, but you are also marketing the show by keeping weasel words/sentences ("Will Celeste choose the bright lights of Manila with Tonito or will she leave her heart and live a possibly quieter life in Sorsogon with Mikoy?") which aren't allowed in Wikipedia.TheHotwiki (talk) 15:14, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

User:HotWiki has been deleting every single premise i added with my own words based on source that i have always given,accusing me falsely of copying and pasting when it was never the case. He did it repeatedly so i changed the words each time thinking he would validate them but he kept acting crazy each time accusing me of copying the press and other sources to my surprise.

User: Hotwiki sent me Multiple Times articles about attributions and as a NEW Comer i had a hard time understanding what he needed from me. When i finally thought i understood,which means i could take the Text from a public Domain if and only if i Attributed the Text thats what i did. Every synopsis that i have taken from the Website was attributed as he recommended but he still wasnt satisfied now telling me about weasel words which he never explained clearly to me before erasing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradleyk360 (talk • contribs) 15:38, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

User: Hotwiki obviously takes pleasure in misleading other contributors, it seems that he doesnt want any form of premise or Plot added to these pages although it means that the page will be less attractive. Every Single Plot or premise to the Show you use, he regards it as copy and Paste eben if he has no evidence at all. He accuses contributors of things they have not done. To me it is clear and simple that he doesnt want a plot added to these TV Shows.

User: Hotwiki asked me to add the attributions to Text from public Domain, if what i contributed is not allowed on wikipedia i apologize to the admins. I would not be surprised if he sent me those links to mislead me on purpose because his attitude as an admin has been very questionable. I would like to know how can i add the plot that i summarized myself without being accused of copying and pasting as i want to make those pages more attractive which isnt possible because of User: Hotwiki. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradleyk360 (talk • contribs) 15:48, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Bradley360, I do not think that you understand what public domain means. That term refers to content that is not covered by copyright, usually because it was published more than 95 years ago and the copyright has expired. The contemporary content on websites of entertainment companies is definitely copyrighted, and you cannot tag it as public domain. That is a violation of the law and must be removed immediately. You can write premises and plot summaries in your own words but you cannot copy and paste big blocks of copyrighted text and call it public domain. It is not allowed. Cullen328 (talk) 19:00, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

In addition, Hotwiki is not an administrator but I am. Bradley360, the evidence shows that you have incorrectly labelled copyrighted text as public domain at least five times. Please stop until you understand the basics of public domain, copyright and close paraphrasing. Cullen328 (talk) 19:19, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Looking at @Bradleyk360‘s comments on @Hotwiki‘s talk page, I think @Bradleyk360 should receive a formal warning to refrain from personal attacks. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 19:32, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

User: Cullen328 thank you very much! This is exactly what i had been doing, writing the premise using my own words while associating the source which is the official Website but he kept erasing everything telling me that i'm copying and pasting press. Now i definitely understand. User: hotwiki did confuse me by erasing every word i had literally put together. The only premises User: hotwiki has not deleted is of course the ones i did wrong by copying as he Made me believe with an article about attributions that there was indeed a public Domain for a Show released in 2021! I will right away correct my mistakes and i hope User: hotwiki will stop reverting user's contributions for no reason. We are all here to learn and grow as much as possible. Thank you admin. I wish everyone was as Patient as you, i would have already become a better contributor by now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradleyk360 (talk • contribs) 19:37, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

User: rsjaffe i am sorry if i could not speak in a better Manner but what you read are the comments of someone whose work has been erased for weeks by User: hotwiki by labeling my work as blatant copy and Paste for no reason At all. I knew his attitude was not right but i did not know where i could complain to. I changed my words my very own words Multiple Times in large and in shorter Texts only to please User: hotwiki so that he will not erase my work but a few Minutes later or hours he was erasing it again accusing me of the same thing. That is why i said he was abusive because his attitude was. I am sorry to have reacted in this Manner and i will definitely do better in the future — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradleyk360 (talk • contribs) 19:51, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Bradley360, your edits were reverted because they contained false and legally incorrect attributions, and also too closely paraphrased the sources. I understand that you are new and trying to learn. But you should not get upset with another editor who reverts your significant errors. Just stop making the errors. Cullen328 (talk) 20:33, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

@Cullen328 Admin i have already erased all the attribution templates i wrongly used thanks to User: hotwiki and here is the premise of a page with my own words based on a youtube Trailer as i used to do before when User: hotwiki kept erasing my contribution. If you would please Review it and tell me if i am indeed wrong in the way i contribute to the synopsis or Plots of TV shows and i will improve it.[102] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradleyk360 (talk • contribs) 20:52, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Bradley360, I do not know whether your premise is accurate but it does not seem to be a copyright violation, as far as I can see. Cullen328 (talk) 22:07, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

@Cullen328 Thank you admin! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradleyk360 (talk • contribs) 16:37, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@ Cullen328 hello Admin again, I'm so sorry that I have to disturb you about this issue over and over again but it seems that user: HotWiki decided Wikipedia should not be a peaceful and pleasant environment for all. He erased another contribution of mine, it is getting exhausting. could you then again please review it? I added the source so you could read and see if that's blatant copy and paste as user: HotWiki insists in accusing me of. If my contribution is indeed wrong I will send my deepest apology to User: HotWiki. please and thank you. [103] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradleyk360 (talk • contribs) 04:53, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

You know you were reported here for a reason. How about just stop "making premise sections". You keep adding the same copyrighted materials into those articles, with onlu small tweaks and they still look like copy and paste materials from other websites. Also you have to stop, taking this personal. You have been warned to not attack editors, and the evidence is clear here that you are still doing it.TheHotwiki (talk) 05:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

You reported me for reasons that aren't true because I do not copy nor do I paste as you claim. you even told me today after deleting another contribution of mine that I should stop editing. I don't know why a common user would say that to another one but even so I did not attack you, did i? I came here to ask to an admin so how is that attacking you? for the last few days every user that saw my premise did not undo it, some even made corrections but nobody told me to literally stop Wikipedia. I hope you don't mind that I'm asking to an admin how we should solve this matter because I want to contribute in this way and you seem determined not to let me do so unless you approve of my contribution. I don't find it fair that my contribution should depend of your approval? especially when of all users you seem to be the only one who has a problem with it.You don't bother trying to correct it, you just erase it completely.Bradleyk360 (talk)07:00, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Craffael.09

Craffael.09 (talk · contribs · logs)

Craffael.09 has been claiming to have been an editor since 2017, and that their original account was hacked and deleted. However, the account that they claim has never existed on either en.wiki or fr.wiki, and obviously accounts can't be deleted. Craffael.09 is using this fake claim of being an editor since 2017 to try and gain clout, including starting an ill-fated RfA (which was courtesy deleted) that wasn't even transcluded properly. This quickly turns from mostly harmless innocence to outright disruption. They've used their lie about having an account for 5 years to request permissions. They've adopted or attempted to adopt users with multiples more experience than them ([104][105], even though they themselves can barely edit competently. Their participation as a DRN volunteer ranges from useless to outright damaging either by their comments or their lack of ability to control the conversation [106][107] (compare that to what an actual DRN mediator does). They've now tried their hand at GA reviewing by doing this "review" [108]. They've completely ignored the advice of several users at their talk page (including Floquenbeam's very well-worded response), and are continuing to trek down this path of lying about how much experience they have to try and gain clout, which is causing real manifested damage. Curbon7 (talk) 19:04, 5 November 2022 (UTC) Ugh my mistake I forgot to notify them. Thank you Swarm for fixing my mistake. Curbon7 (talk) 20:36, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, one of their accounts, User:Ieohrbdnjbfgduigbrhrbjdj, was indefinitely blocked French Wikipedia for vandalism. I don't understand why User:Craffael wasn't blocked, too. User:Crffli is them, too. fr:Special:Diff/196796303 makes it pretty obvious that the account is just playing around on French Wikipedia. None of this was on English Wikipedia, though. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:22, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Well it seems pretty obvious that they’re just playing around here too…Floquenbeam identified these issues several days ago. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 22:46, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate User:Craffaeldabest, User:Craffael2021 and User:Craffael2 are also them. Same claims to be an experienced editor [109], same claims that their account was hacked [110], same interest in the lord of the rings and TV, same messing around with things they obviously don't understand (one of the accounts seems to have tries to make a wikiproject in template space?) and the obvious name similarity. I agree with swarm that their edits here seem to just be messing around. 86.23.109.101 (talk) 22:53, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't appear looking at those that the multiple accounts are being used to try and game anything, and looking through edits they don't seem obviously deliberately disruptive, but there's obvious issues with experience and it's weird to claim accounts that don't exist (they also claim to have been RaphLibUland (talk · contribs) at User talk:Craffaeldabest). Removal from DRN should be enforced with a partial if necessary. CMD (talk) 03:26, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I’m gonna be honest, right now I’m interpreting this as a known vandal/troll who is roleplaying (poorly) as an experienced and trustworthy member of the community, that is pretty much what we know at this point. I’m curious to see what others think about this strange situation, but I’m thinking this is a NOTHERE situation, regardless of what their motivations actually are. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 04:33, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

As a non-admin, I've commented three times at User talk:Craffael.09, if this comment is misleading or inappropriate do let me know. IMO this is a generally good-faith, friendly editor who is unconstructive IMO, but still edits 30% at mainspace, with these edits not being all that bad. Nevertheless, there are a couple of mistakes made IMHO.

1. Reviewing good articles- Despite warnings from multiple users at User talk:Craffael.09#Talk:Morgoth/GA1 they did not withdraw the review or improve it after seeing the message, instead ignoring it.

2. Unconstructive and poor handling of WP:DRN discussions, which require more experience.

3. Inappropriate adoptions. The user lacks sufficient experience to properly mentor others, shown by them not (or lacking sufficient experience to) teaching about the basics, e.g., WP:5P, WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:RS, WP:VANDALISM, WP:COPYRIGHT, WP:GA to name a few I can think of), instead superfluously giving WikiLove, after the adoptee requested help at User talk:Craffael.09#First of all, the user proceeded with poor c/e that was not comprehensive, 1, 2. Further, following numerous other users recommending against adopting others, including Liz warning against at User talk:Suryabeej, diff, and warnings at User talk:Craffael.09#adminship, the user refused to accept valid concerns, and continued to offer adoption.

4. An inappropriate WP:RFA (which has already been deleted) and subsequent advertising at VPM.

In consequence, I purpose that the GA review be closed and vacated for a more experienced user to review, vacating current DRN discussions Craffael.09 is taking part on for more experienced users, and sanction the user from adopting more users (including recommending Ruwaym to select another adopter). If my summary is inadequate, improper, misleading, or confrontational, please do let me know, additionally, feel free to strike parts you believe are unsuitable. Many thanks again for your considerations and time! VickKiang (talk) 05:30, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the previous editors that the involvement of Craffael.09 at DRN has been problematic. They began by jumping into the Star Control dispute as the volunteer who would help out, after I had already opened that case. Their involvement in the Mary, Queen of Scots and West Herzegovina Canton disputes has alternated between overly active and neglectful. They have either tried to offer what they called a consensus solution to disputes (when there obviously wasn't consensus, or the dispute wouldn't have been at DRN), or allowed back-and-forth discussion to continue too long (and back-and-forth discussion is seldom productive at DRN, because it has already failed) before hatting it. We have a shortage of volunteers at DRN, and I want to be welcoming to any new volunteers, but this one seems not to be helping. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:06, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

The multiple started and abandoned accounts with similar names (usually more than 90 days apart) are also troubling. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:06, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I have to agree with Robert McClenon. While this user doesn't necessarily seem to be here to intentionally cause problems- they are causing problems. Lots of them. Never before, to my knowledge, have we had to discuss how to remove a volunteer from the DRN- but their inexperience and lack of mediation skills is.... well it makes their volunteering untenable. They are making things worse. I mean- lord knows Robert is overworked, and I am not enough help- we need more volunteers but WP:CIR. Their GA nomination? I'm sure their adoptee has worked hard- but that doesn't mean the article is ready to be GA status. They should not even HAVE an adoptee. They need to be adopted. And an RFA- no. IMO- they need to have all their rights stripped down to base and warned that if they abandon and create a new account they will be banned. Just my opinion. Take some time- learn the ropes. Work on becoming the fabulous editor you clearly want to be- and then start taking on some admin roles. Like the DRN- maybe start out by clerking there a bit. When new case is opened- check that it fits us- that all editors have been notified, and that there has been discussion- then note that, and let a more experienced volunteer mediate the actual dispute. Watch how we handle it- then start assisting with mediation- maybe mediate one with a mentor. You don't have to just jump in and go full force. I think its admirable to want to be a big help to the project, but without knowledge- your just causing more work for others. . . And please- don't just abandon this account and wait 90 days and make a new one. You haven't responded here, so I'm afraid thats what is about to happen. Please prove me wrong! Nightenbelle (talk) 15:17, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

• I started to list all the things I thought we should "make" them do to avoid a block in the future, and it got really long really fast. Stepping back and reviewing their fr.wiki and en.wiki contribs from their various accounts, is there any objection to an indef block now for disruption? They're just screwing around, and have demonstrated zero concern for the effect that this playing is having on other editors. The behavior of the Craffael.09 account on en.wiki alone might lead to suggestions of mentoring, guidance, not biting newbies, etc. But, really, this is long-term disruption that is not going to stop. Any future accounts can be blocked for block evasion. Any unblock request should be met with either a "no, come back in a few years", or "ok, subject to the following 6 restrictions...". Any objection? --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:32, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Floquenbeam Please do it. They can explain what they have been doing, going back to 2007 off and on, in an unblock request. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:02, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Sad, but I would support this solution. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:00, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

OK, I've blocked them indefinitely. They do not seem to go back and use other accounts once abandoned, but I'll go thru the socks listed here and block those too in a few minutes. I've asked for help cleaning up the mess made at the GA review. @Robert McClenon:, can you deal with the mess at WP:DRN? I'm not sure I'd know what the best way forward was. I will also contact their adoptees to let them know. Any other cleanup anywhere that I've missed? --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:49, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, User:Floquenbeam - I've assumed the role of mediator in the two disputes that they were mishandling. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:25, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Would it be useful to community-ban the user (which of course applies to all of their accounts)? Since they have also been misbehaving on the French Wikipedia, should we ask stewards to globally lock them? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:25, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

They have, of course, already started socking. I just blocked User:MrYellowWatermelon after a note from a CU. Which explains why they went radio-silent as soon as this ANI was started. I'm not a big believer in community ban discussions for obvious problem editors who are indef blocked, but that opinion might be in the minority. I'm thinking more along the lines of RBI. But no objection if you want to start such a discussion. Floquenbeam (talk) 01:28, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam: I've undid User:MrYellowWatermelon's GAN nom and comments at Talk:Misato Katsuragi, IMO another editor should do the c/e instead. Many thanks! VickKiang (talk) 01:58, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

VickKiang - could you also undo the GAN nom and comments at Talk:Morgoth and delete the GA1 page Talk:Morgoth/GA1 so we can have a fresh review? Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:17, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Undid those and requested CSD. VickKiang (talk) 09:29, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Uncivil behavior from User:AndyTheGrump

User:AndyTheGrump has been engaging in various forms of uncivil behavior over an issue which started at Talk:Flying car, but has since spread to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft and FT/N. The behavior has mainly been targeted toward User:Steelpillow, as both have been in a dispute over the contents of Flying car.

The uncivil behavior started when Andy assumed bad faith and reported Steelpillow to FT/N. Throughout the FT/N and elsewhere, Andy has accused Steelpillow of engaging in historical revisionism ([111] [112] [113] [114] [115]). I requested Andy to provide evidence of Steelpillow's alleged history revisionism, but he refused to do so. Furthermore, the discussion at User talk:AndyTheGrump#Personal attacks makes it apparent that Andy is not willing to listen to warnings. - ZLEA _T\^C 00:28, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Firstly, I didn't 'report Steelpillow to FT/N'. FT/N isn't a behavioural issue noticeboard. I started a thread there on a matter I considered of relevance to the noticeboard, asking for input from others. This was after attempting to have a discussion over what I thought was a fairly simple matter, which resulted in me being told to "stop bashing your PoV rhetoric". [116] Perhaps ZLEA could explain how that wasn't uncivil? As for historical revisionism, the immediate locus of the debate appears to be whether a machine built in 1901 (two years before the Wright brothers' first flight) should be included in a list of 'flying cars' in an article of the same name. Given that the clear consensus amongst mainstream aviation historians is that Whiteheads machine (and others he built or claimed to have built, before and after) never flew, and given that the description of this machine as a 'flying car' seems to originate with a 1901 newspaper report widely regarded as more or less invention, it seemed questionable at minimum for Wikipedia to be including it in a list so entitled. And frankly, I was surprised that someone with Steelpillow's experience didn't see what the issue was. In trying to get a clear explanation I have been faced with endless bluster about a supposed Wikiproject aircraft 'consensus' on lists, which seems to actually consist of nothing more than an essay written almost entirely by Steelpillow, with no real evidence of discussion relevant to the specifics of the case, let alone any actual consensus. Meanwhile though, my curiosity was aroused, and it became clear after a little Googling that Steelpillow had an external webpage heavily promoting the fringe Whitehead-flew-before-the-Wrights claims. [117] I was initially reluctant to bring this up, but given Steelpillow's endless stonewalling, and refusal to actually explain why Wikipedia should be presenting fringe claims as fact, it seemed prudent to do so. Not that it made much difference, since little in the way of actual explanation for this has been offered beyond endless attempts to assert Wikiproject ownership on the article, and a claim that "There is no policy that forbids it, no case to answer." accompanied by accusations of engaging in an " error-riddled personal crusade".[118]. How exactly wasn't that uncivil? And how exactly wasn't Steelpillow's accusation that " the WP:FRINGE police are now wanting to turn our aircraft list style guide on its head, on the basis of one paranoid theory about one entry in one aircraft" uncivil? [119] I await ZLEA's explanation for why I have been reported here, but not Steelpillow? And why is ZLEA claiming that I failed to provide evidence of historical revisionism, after I informed them that the matter was being discussed in the FT/N thread? I provided the evidence. I merely refused to engage with Steelpillow in inappropriately spreading the same discussion over multiple pages. ZLEA is being less than impartial here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:09, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I won't pretend to be impartial. You've managed to tick off more than a few editors in the past 24 hours, including myself. This discussion is about your behavior, not Steelpillow's. I won't deny that Steelpillow has also engaged in uncivil behavior, but it's you who has caused the most trouble. If you actually read Steelpillow's website, you will notice that it doesn't claim that Whitehead No. 21 flew before the Wright Flyer. In fact, the last paragraph makes it clear that he doesn't care who flew first, only that the dispute should be settled once and for all. The case of who flew first has been the subject of legitimate controversy for a while, especially after the Wright brothers' contract with the Smithsonian. It's probably worth noting that the claims that Whitehead flew first were supported in the 2013 edition of Jane's All the World's Aircraft. For the record, I personally believe it was the Wright brothers who flew first, but I cannot deny that others have provided evidence of others flying before them. While some of the claims are fringe, the Whitehead claim is by no means one of them.

You may disagree with me, and that's fine, but the diffs I provided show that you have not been engaging in civil discussion about the matter. - ZLEA _T\^C 02:05, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I won't pretend to be impartial. Fine. Don't then. I'm sure people can take that into account. Meanwhile, I suggest you take note of how this noticeboard actually works. Which very frequently involves discussions regarding the behaviour of individuals other than the contributor initially named. And as for me causing 'the most trouble', if suggesting that Wikipedia shouldn't describe non-flying things as flying is really 'trouble' worthy of reporting at WP:ANI, Wikipedia is truly screwed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:17, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Characterizing someone as pushing historical revisionism is not a personal attack. Mackensen (talk) 02:21, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Mackensen, criticism of view does not equal to criticism of person. depicting criticism of view as criticism of person itself may amount to undue personalization. I would advice reducing direct interaction for a while. Dispute seem to need regular WP:DRN and WP:RFC.

This is uninvolved non–admin opinion. Bookku (talk) 02:33, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Also, cars that didn't fly can't have been "flying cars", no matter how much someone wants them to have been. I trust that will be the result at FTNB. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:40, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

The fact that Andy criticizes Steelpillow's views isn't the issue, it's how he does it. Andy was very quick to assume bad faith in the beginning, as well as here and here.

And for the record, a "flying car" is simply the name of a type of aircraft which is designed to drive on the road. The term "flying" is not literal and is used in several aircraft type names and does not mean that the aircraft has to actually be built and fly in order to be described as such (other examples being flying boat, flying saucer, and flying wing). - ZLEA _T\^C 03:45, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

So, if someone mixes a potion, and says that it cures flatulence, calling it a "healing elixir" we should recognize it as a legitimate medicine because they say it heals? What about, you know, reality? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:50, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

The term "flying" is not literal..... Not in Gustave Whitehead's case, no. Not according to WP:RS. Actual RS (eg. the Royal Aeronautical Society, for a nice summary of what has also been said elsewhere [120]), rather than a Janes article that was later disowned by the publisher. [121] However, I find it hard to believe that anyone should seriously argue that readers won't expect to find actual flying cars in a list entitled 'flying cars'. Or has WP:WEDIDNTMEANITLITERALLY become policy somehow, without anyone noticing? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:59, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken We should recognize it as the reliable sources recognize it. I have yet to see a source which refers to unbuilt and unflown aircraft as "claimed aircraft" or similar. AndyTheGrump If you want to insist on taking the term "flying car" so literally, then Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster technically counts. The Flying car article makes it clear that a flying car is a name for a "type of vehicle". - ZLEA _T\^C 04:32, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@ZLEA, @AndyTheGrump, if "flying" in "flying car" is the issue here, maybe you two can settle down on "roadable aircraft"? 'Cause if some aircraft hadn't managed to get airborne, it's still an aircraft, just unsuccessful one. a!rado (C✙T) 07:55, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

It strikes me as odd that the OP is claiming the uncivil behavior started with Andy. The linked diff presented in support of that assertion is Andy's reply to an uncivil remark from Steelpillow. This report is quite one-sided, and the OP should have taken better care to present an accurate picture. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 04:16, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I was referring to Andy's uncivil behavior. I was aware of Steelpillow's uncivil remark, but I did not see a pattern of such behavior from him. Feel free to correct me if I missed something. - ZLEA _T\^C 04:36, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

This strikes me as a spat rather than an actionable civility problem. There was incivility on both sides, and Andy’s explanation of the context speaks for itself. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 04:57, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Irrespective to ATG's behaviour, ZLEA's original post is just ridiculous.

• "The uncivil behavior started when Andy assumed bad faith and reported Steelpillow to FT/N. " What is it supposed to mean? WP:FT/N discusses not users, but fringe theories. In that sense, it is similar to, e.g. WP:RSN. Is it possible to assume someone's bad faith by going to RSN, NORN, and similar noticeboards?
• "Andy has accused Steelpillow of engaging in historical revisionism". I think ZLEA needs to go to a library, and I am sure they will be surprised to learn that "as many professional historians pointed out to the President, rather than falsifying or white-washing the past, revisionism is simply what good historians do." In other words, contrary to what ZLEA claims, the term "historical revisionism" has no obviously negative connotations.
• In the statement " to promote your pet exercise in historical revisionism" the core claim is not "revisionism" (which is a pretty neutral term), but the words "your pet exercise in " (i.e. that is an accusation of engaging in original research). Are such accusations considered PA?

I think this report should be ignored as frivolous, and the user who submitted this report should be warned.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:32, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

All other points notwithstanding, I think we all realize that Andy was using "historical revisionism" with obviously negative connotations. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 14:45, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Steelpillow here, the butt of AndyTheGrump's rudeness. If I have in turn been rude then I am glad to apologise. There is a fine line between robust defence against bullying and falling into the same trap oneself. I have already redacted one example, thanks to the intervention of another editor, see here. I would also reproduce the following lists of links from that brief discussion:

Examples of the repeated abuse, doubting my good faith, accusations of wacky conspiracies and deliberately misleading and lying include:[122][123][124][125][126][127][128].

[AndyTheGrump] has been warned[129][130] but continues to be defiant[131][132].

Since that post, his rudeness has continued. So you can see that this is about far more than spurious claims of historical revisionism - claims which are not even relevant to the article in dispute. Indeed, AndyTheGrump has seized on a minor difference of historical opinion (over a claasic aviation controversy) to build a clear hate campaign against me and claim that I am deliberately attempting to subvert Wikipedia. This refusal to assume good faith lies at the heart of his rudeness and his endless digressions, some of which have already found their place above here. If anybody can isolate my specific rudeness from those walls of text, please do point them out to me and I will happily apologise for them. But, since AndyTheGrump stands proud in his violations of WP:CIVIL, I feel that there is a significant issue with his behaviour. Had I not taken a night's asleep for the last eight hours, I would have raised the issue here sooner, myself. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:22, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Wow. A "hate campaign"! Have you tried reading the comments from uninvolved editors above? Johnuniq (talk) 08:35, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Only those AndyTheGrump has scattered everywhere, but I do not regard him as uninvolved. When someone accuses you straight out of lying through your teeth and, repeatedly over multiple discussions and in highly charged emotive language, of subverting Wikipedia, what better description can you offer? Did you check all the diffs I provided? Note that they give the lie to the claim made somewhere above that I started the rudeness. There have been more since that I can collect for you, if that would help? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:13, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Johnuniq said Have you tried reading the comments from uninvolved editors above? and you (@Steelpillow) replied Only those AndyTheGrump has scattered everywhere, but I do not regard him as uninvolved.

Maybe you (@Steelpillow) should consider reading the comments from uninvolved editors, at which point you will see that describing this as a "hate campaign" is a bit off base. Both you and @AndyTheGrump need to step back from this and cool down. It's an internet encyclopedia.

Sometimes the best way to de-escalate a dispute is for one of you (it literally does not matter which) to disengage. If you're the first person to do so, it does not make you weak and it does not admit fault. it makes you a reasonable human being who understands when things get out of hand. If either of you step away from this dispute, and find that no one is backing up your position, it may be that the position was not worth defending in the first place. If no one else steps up to defend it, among all the many zealous people on this website, it probably was not worth defending. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 13:27, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Maybe a "bullying campaign" or "harassment campaign" would be more appropriate to following me around from discussion to discussion with these accusations? Call it what you will, the diffs are there to be acknowledged. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:17, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

It will be readily apparent to anyone looking into the relevant editing history that 'rudeness' began with this post from Steelpillow: The first-to-fly controversy is utterly irrelevant here. Please stay on topic and stop bashing your PoV rhetoric. An editor as experienced as you should know better. Thank you. Even ignoring the rudeness, it is frankly bizarre. Of course the 'first-to-fly controversy' was relevant. It was the reason I'd started the thread, since Whitehead's 1901 (i.e. prior to the Wright's first flight) inclusion in the list was clearly incompatible with the established perspective of mainstream aviation historians. I was being accused of 'POV rhetoric' for suggesting that Wikipedia content should reflect the mainstream view, rather than that of Whitehead's supporters. As for following Steelpillow around, it would not have been necessary if Steelpillow had not misrepresented a debate about the inclusion of a specific item on a list as some sort of conspiracy to demolish a Wikiproject style guide. I have nothing against style guides, as long as they are used as such. As 'guides' rather than a set of 'rules' to be enforced in order to shoehorn inappropriate content into articles. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:51, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I am the editor who warned both AndyTheGrump [133], [134] and Steelpillow [135] about incivilty. AndyTheGrump rejected the warnings, quoting DTTR [136], and when I commented that being a regular doesn't negate the requirements of NPA, and that he should comment about the subject, not about the editors [137], banned me from his talkpage [138].Should certain editors be given immunity from having to be civil or from casting aspersions against other editors? Should these editors be protected at the cost of sanctioning any other editors who dare to raise questions about personal attacks, as User:Paul Siebert seems to suggest above - if this is the case then en:wiki as a whole has a problem.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:59, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

At no point have I asked for immunity from anything. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:54, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Post of @Nigel Ish helped me revisit, understood where they are coming from and appreciate they took immediate and impartial interest.

Those who are regulars do have more moral responsibility to follow WP:NPA faithfully and give primacy to dispute resolution mechanism.

WP mechanism to avoid harshness and incivility need improvement and also improvement in calming down process to give deescalation a due chance and time gaps to reflect upon. Bookku (talk) 12:11, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

While you undoubtedly were well-intentioned when you issued those warnings, DTTR exists for good reason. Templated warnings to regulars generally serve to raise the temperature without really helping anyone. Moreover, given that you aren't an admin, you were issuing warnings that you couldn't enforce. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 14:42, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I was unaware that DTTR was policy and over-ruled WP:NPA - has anyone told WMF that the UCOC doesn't apply here. Please can someone tell me the policy-based reason why I am not allowed to warn others about civilty issues. It is clear that you think that my opinion is worthless - presumably you think that my contributions are worthless too.Nigel Ish (talk) 14:55, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Nobody has suggested that you aren't allowed to 'warn others about civility issues' when appropriate. You warned me. I responded, so you know I'd seen the warning. I merely asked you not to keep posting further warnings, since I was already well aware of Wikipedia's (rather confusing and contradictory) attitudes to incivility. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:00, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I've got to say that I'm with Nigel Ish here. If regulars who know the rules continue to break them, then repeated warnings are clearly in order. DTTR is nonsense, and the idea that regulars are somehow outside the normal rules is an exceptionally dangerous route. After framgate things definitely improved here but recently we seem to be drifting back to the bad-old-days. Nigej (talk) 15:05, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Wait, what?! When did this turn into a referendum on your contributions? All I did was offer a very mild criticism of your actions which included an explicit acknowledgment that you were acting good faith. To answer your question, no, there is no policy-based prohibition on templating regulars. I never claimed that there was. But the fact that you can do something does not automatically mean that you should. It's possible to make a situation worse without violating any policy, and that's exactly what happened here. I am sorry if my very polite criticism of your well-intentioned actions caused you to conclude that I consider your opinion worthless. Have you stopped to consider how Andy might have felt when you dropped a pair of templated warnings on his page as if he were a newbie? Warnings = criticism, so you need to stop issuing warnings if you can't accept even the simplest criticism of your own behavior. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 15:14, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

It's true that we are responsible for our actions and need to avoid hurting people feelings unnecessarily. However, these a massively important issue here, the drift back to regarding incivility by regulars as somehow acceptable. Nigej (talk) 15:27, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I never said that incivility by regulars was acceptable. My allusion to DTTR should not be misunderstood as an assertion that regulars should be allowed to be uncivil. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 18:28, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@Nigel Ish: Stating that one should not drop template warnings on regulars ≠ stating that regulars have free reign to do everything we have warning templates for. Warning templates are not the project's exclusive means of handling user conduct. They are made generally for new or unknown users as they find their footing in the project. You and I and the sun and the stars all know that templating a regular will A) not inform them of anything they don't already know, and B) most definitely upset them, particularly when a dispute is already happening regarding the matter. If you're having a heated argument with someone, you wouldn't stop the discussion to say "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" unless you were deliberately trying to upset them. I hope I'm adequately expressing that warning templates are great and all but they don't exist in a vacuum, and if you know a template is only going to upset the regular, without informing them of anything, you probably shouldn't paste it to their talk page. GabberFlasted (talk) 12:59, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@GabberFlasted: this was a very well-stated explanation, but it does not appear to have been well-received. @Nigel Ish: is there a reason why you are responding to us at your userpage instead of engaging in the discussion here? I genuinely do not understand why you think that we do not want you to comment here. I never said that your opinions/contributions were worthless, yet you have accused me of holding those beliefs. Neither I nor anyone else in this thread ever claimed that DTTR was policy (in fact, I explicitly agreed that it is not policy), yet on your userpage you are claiming that DTTR has been promoted to policy. That statement is plainly incorrect. I write this comment with some hesitation given that you seem to be interpreting every comment as negatively as possible, but I am frankly perplexed by your reactions. Please discuss your concerns with us and make a sincere effort to understand what we actually mean. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:39, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Please stop pinging me. I have removed any comment from my user page about behavioural issues on Wikipedia as my thoughtappear to be so objectional to everybody here and do not intend to engage further in this discussion unless I have to as my opinions on the use of WP:DTTR to protect established users and the toxic environment here have been thoroughly rejected. Continuing the discussion here will not be helpful, as this discussion is no longer about any incident, and will merely inflame the issue further.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:41, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

WTF is this diversion doing here? Poking NigelIsh is obviously going to further upset a colleague who is already badly upset, which may be taken in the context of all those pious words about not upsetting other regulars. It is also unhelpful to prolong a dead thread about something else, when there are more relevant places to discuss the likes of DTTR and, for my money, WP:TTR. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:26, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

I did not poke anyone. It was never my desire to attack Nigel Ish or even to upset them. I had been hoping to resolve the misunderstanding amicably, but I have respected their desire to let the discussion die. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:30, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Close as a clear content dispute without action and WP:TROUT ZLEA - This is another example of content disputes spilling onto ANI. Nothing here is actionable in the slightest. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 13:24, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

So in your point of view, the requirements of Wp:NPA do not apply to certain superusers. Clearly there is no point in mere mortals in raising any concerns about behaviour. I suppose I should be glad that I have not already been banned from the whole of Wikipedia for not totally agreeing with certain users.Nigel Ish (talk) 14:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

How about we compromise? I take the slap on the face with a wet fish on your ZELA's behalf, and you find something else to be overly-dramatic about instead? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:29, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I would tell you @AndyTheGrump that describing @Nigel Ish as "overly-dramatic" is also not a great look for you. I would refrain from saying things like that. If they are true, you should, in general, allow uninvolved users to say as much. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:29, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I would second this suggestion while also pointing out that Nigel Ish should dial back the over-the-top rhetoric. See their userpage for an example of the problem. Nobody has suggested running them off the site, yet they are acting as if their future on Wikipedia is under threat. I do not appreciate having words put in my mouth, especially not in a such a blatant fashion. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 18:55, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

From their rhetoric, you'd think Nigel Ish wrote Wikipedia:Unblockables, but I would point them towards WP:TINC which is, in essence, a direct response to that kind of rhetoric. No one is trying to deprive anyone else of rights, no one is running anyone else out of here, no one is silencing anyone else. Incivility poisons discussions, that much is clear. And a lot of users here are at fault for participating in that incivility. But escalation of discussions always to drama boards like this or over-exaggerating everything to a personal attack is also poisonous to discussions. Overcoming incivility means not participating in it, not getting rid of everyone who was ever not nice to you so that wikipedia can be full of people who agree with you always. This is not meant as an endorsement to @AndyTheGrump or @Steelpillow or anyone else to do whatever they want. It should be clear enough that the community will be watching both of their behavior pretty closely after this episode... — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 19:28, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@Nigel Ish: clearly NPA should apply to superusers, but I don't think we should be applying it so liberally for things like this. I am sorry but i disagree with you on whether it should apply here. It has nothing to do with the "level" of users involved. I just don't think the comments from anyone here are bad enough to merit sanctions from WP:NPA. Perhaps a warning to be more CIVIL to both users, regarding specific things that both users have said. But I disagree with you on whether anything more is warranted. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:28, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

You, along with User:Paul Siebert were not simply saying that the NPAs didn't rise to a level that admin action was required - which is a matter of debate, but were demanding action against editors for raising the issue in the first place. If there are no channels available to raise concerns (i.e. not allowed to warn other editors on their talk pages according to how DTTR is being enforced as policy, and not allowed to raise issues here or else risk sanction) then ordinary editors are reduced to the level of nobodies with no rights.Nigel Ish (talk) 15:38, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I misunderstand, but was I really "demanding action against editors for raising the issue in the first place" ? I said we should WP:TROUT the proposer for bringing a content dispute here. Have we really gotten to the point on this website where applying a silly joke template to tell people to be a bit more cautious about what counts as ANI-worthy is seen as "demanding an action" a la sanctions? I have never recommended any formal warnings, formal actions, bans, or blocks in this thread.

I also never made any comment whatsoever on whether warning templates should or should not have been used. I think you may be confusing me with someone else.

I think we would all be a lot better off if there were fewer threads at ANI, and if people used WP:3O and WP:DRN more often. There are plenty of other channels to use to resolve disputes like this, and shame on everyone involved for not employing them. No one here is being reduced to the level of nobodies with no rights. There were plenty of other things that could be done instead of bringing this to ANI. No one is "being deprived of their rights" here.

Overall, I would like to point out the problem with some of the behavior here. Drawing uninvolved editors (like myself) into the dispute with heightened rhetoric and high stakes accusations is the beginning stages of WP:BATTLEGROUND. As if everyone who is not with you is against you. Let's just talk about this reasonably, and allow others to disagree with whether sanctions are merited. Please and thank you. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:42, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Shibbolethink Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are happy to sanction multiple breaches of WP:AGF and even accusations of outright lies in breach of WP:NPA Moreover you think that shooting the messenger is called for? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:44, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Uh, what? I'm sorry @Steelpillow, but WP:TROUT is hardly a bullet wound. Please just cool your jets. I am sorry that I disagree with you on whether these things merit sanctions, but it is not a statement on your personal worth or conduct as an editor. I would disagree with the tone and civility of some of AndyTheGrump's statements, but I would also disagree with the tone and civility of some of yours. And I don't think either of these raise to the level of sanctions per NPA or AGF. Please respect my right to disagree, thanks — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:32, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. Of course I respect your right to disagree, I was more concerned to confirm that you were on top of the behaviour issue, and you have done that. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:52, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@Steelpillow, I wanted to follow up on this. Above you say Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are happy to sanction multiple breaches of WP:AGF and even accusations of outright lies in breach of WP:NPA. This is akin to a journalist asking the president So, you like killing yemeni children. How does that feel, to be a child murderer? Do you see what I mean? I would urge you to avoid this in the future, please. It may feel good, or it may make people agree with you already agree with you more, but it does very little to de-escalate a situation or achieve consensus. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 19:37, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

With due respect, I put up the diffs demonstrating those abuses and you responded by saying they were acceptable. That does not feel at all good, especially when you confirmed it, but we have agreed to differ so please let it pass. For what it's worth, my fellow editors on the ground supported me here for a reason, and ANI has been letting all three of us down shamefully. One of them is far more upset than I am. So it goes. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 21:19, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

• Every one of is knowledgeable, wise here and very well understand we all have much more to do, We are not here for WP:Battle of WP:EGO, all us focus is content improvement. and If every one takes a step back and WP:DEESCALATE may help everyone IMHO. Bookku (talk) 15:56, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  Agree there. Much of the discussion has actually been along the lines of "lets shoot the messenger", a classic anti-whistle-blower tactic. Let's focus on the important issue here. Nigej (talk) 16:13, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I won't be mad if I am trouted, I could have worded my original post a little better. However, I will defend my decision to bring this issue to AN/I instead of WP:DRN, as this is not simply a content dispute. - ZLEA _T\^C 17:28, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Steelpillow collapsing discussions

See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft#Lists of aircraft, where Steelpillow has twice collapsed relevant content posted by other contributors as 'Off-topic diversion'. This appears to me to be an attempt to control discussion and to assert ownership of the page, in a manner incompatible with WP:COLLAPSENO. Would I be justified un un-collapsing the content? Or (preferably) could someone else do so, since it would seem preferable not to increase the heat even further? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:13, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

From my perspective, these were just increasingly acrimonious diversions. If others here do feel that I collapsed content relevant to improving the WikiProject's style guide, I'd be grateful if you only un-collapsed the directly relevant content. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:46, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Alsoriano97

Alsoriano97 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User edits in portal namespace: [139]

This case was initially filed at WP:AN/3 as a follow-up to a previous edit-warring sanction, but was referred to WP:AN/I by the handling admin due to complexity and scope.

• Alsoriano97 was blocked less then a week ago for edit warring and violating 3RR as a result of this discussion.

• On 4 Nov, Alsoriano97 reverted a entry relating to the 2022 FIFA World Cup [140]. No reason was provided, with the nonsensical edit summary Uhm….

• The removal is reverted by the original editor [141]. Given that no reason was given for the removal of a legitimate entry, this seemed to be reasonable. Subsequently, the entry is removed again [142], with no edit summary.

• Given the nonsensical and unjustified removals, I re-added the entry, while amending the wording of the entry [143].

• Afterwards, the entry is edited by a number of editors to further correct wording and content. Despite the subsequent edits by many editors, Alsoriano97 removes the entry again [144], claiming A "deputy minister" is certainly unnotable.

• I reverted this removal [145], and told Alsoriano97 to gain consensus on the talk page, creating a new entry for the discussion .

Clearly notable event concerning multiple countries at a major international event. Please gain consensus for removal of the entry, worked-on by multiple editors, before removing the entry again.

I further issued a warning relating to edit warring on Alsoriano97's talk page relating to the removals.

Please stop removing a clearly notable event concerning multiple countries at a major international event. Please gain consensus for removal of the entry, worked-on by multiple editors, before removing the entry again. You may gain consensus at Portal talk:Current events/2022 November 4.

• In response to the edit warring warning, Alsoriano97 removed the warning with the following edit summary.

Ridiculous your tear down mania against me lol. No lessons you can give.

In response to the talk page discussion, Alsoriano97 wrote the below.

do you really think that a boycott by a deputy minister is a "clearly notable event"? Do you know what a "deputy minister" is? Do you know that the World Cup has not even started? Do you know that people don't come to Wikipedia to "play"?

Both replies contain egregious breaches of WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA & WP:AGF against not only myself, but the previous blocking administrator and this noticeboard in general.

• A further reply by Alsoriano97 on the talk page has shown he is not willing to discuss or compromise relating to the subject-matter of the entry.

It's still irrelevant. "Announce"? Come on, I'm sure it can wait until the day of the game, right? That's what can be remarkable. Everyone announces many things and Wikipedia is a serious place. It's just that the boycott is still being done by a deputy minister from a subnational (although sovereigb) entity. Do you know what rank that is.

Alsoriano97's tone again breaches WP:CIVIL.

• While 3RR has not been reached in this case, given that it has been less then a week since Alsoriano97's last block for edit warring, and taking into account Alsoriano97's egregious breaches of WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA & WP:AGF in connection with the edit warring conduct in this case, I feel that it is worth further examining Alsoriano97's conduct and considering further sanctions.

• Alsoriano97 has also directly challenged and dismissed the legitimacy of his last block, claiming it to be a tear down mania against him and that there were No lessons that could be given. Given this dismissal, and his pattern of behavior before and after the block, I believe that the previous block has not had the intended effect and will not be sufficient to stop his disruptive conduct and edit warring activities.

Background:

• Alsoriano97 has a history of edit warring, civility issues and tendentious editing on Portal:Current Events going back many years.
• A search by an administrator returned 66 potential violations of 3RR over a 3 year period.
• An AN/I filing was previously opened against Alsoriano97, where Alsoriano97 was warned to not further engage in the above issues.
• Alsoriano97 has been previously blocked for 3RR violations on Portal:Current Events.
• The majority of Alsoriano97’s removals relate to news on Anglophone countries, with a specific emphasis on the USA. These removals frequently relate to news that, while occurring in the US, are widely reported globally in many RS's.
• Alsoriano97 frequently removes or makes uncivil comments for entries which do not include the country of where the event occurred.

Previous Discussions & Warnings:

Recent

1. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive460#User:Alsoriano97 reported by User:Carter00000 (Result: Blocked for 48 hours)
2. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1105#User:Alsoriano97 (Long Term Violations of Edit Warring, WP:CIVIL & Tedentious_Editing)
3. Portal_talk:Current_events/2022_November_4
4. User_talk:Alsoriano97#"Too_local"_attempted_assassination_on_Nancy
5. Wikipedia:Current_events_noticeboard#Do we really have to place countries all the time?

Significant

1. Portal_talk:Current_events/Archive_12#Multi-Revert_Issue_with_Alsoriano97
2. User_talk:Alsoriano97/Archive_1#Warning
3. User_talk:Alsoriano97/Archive_1#Use the summary box before making an edit!
4. User_talk:Alsoriano97/Archive_1#May 2021
5. User_talk:Alsoriano97/Archive_1#Your use of the word "Domestic"
6. User_talk:Alsoriano97/Archive_2#Revert of Current Events
7. User_talk:Alsoriano97/Archive_1#Your revert about Dwayne Haskins
8. User_talk:Alsoriano97/Archive_1#Matt Gaetz
9. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive441#User:Alsoriano97 reported by User:Araesmojo (Result: No action)

Carter00000 (talk) 08:36, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

• Alsoriano97’s first and only comment Let me explain. First of all, when I say "don't give me lessons". Have you seen your Talk Page? Have you seen the conflicts you have provoked in Wikipedia with other editors in such a vulgar way? Have you forgotten when in the last ANI, many editors criticized your attitudes? Do you really think you can give lessons on how to be a good editor? I can't even do it myself! Why did you come to Wikipedia? What contributions do you want to make? Or just problems with everyone? This is a serious place, away from personal whims.

Secondly. We communicate in writing. What you may misinterpret does’nt mean that it’s exactly what the person meant to say. You have to be more mature and assume that, often, we will read and listen to things we don't like without that implying that we are being disrespected and that the person is rude. Do not mix things up. It’s very serious and reckless to treat a comment as uncivil gratuitously and lightly.

Thirdly. You consider certain questions I have asked you to be uncivil. Simple questions! How should I, from now on, ask you questions?

Fourthly. "against not only myself, but the previous blocking administrator and this noticeboard in general". On what do you base your assertion?

Fifthly. Let the other editors and administrators work. Stop going to the "last instances" without even trying, in a friendly way, to get someone to explain you. Stop "playing court", out of respect for those you are forcing to resolve this.

And lastly, and very seriously. Practically all your last contributions you have made are to open processes against my edits or removing my contributions to try to provoke an edit war only and exclusively against me. This is called harassment, and it is very serious. This nomination is a clear example of it, a nonsense. What exactly is your goal? _-_Alsor (talk) 11:10, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Have you forgotten when in the last ANI, many editors criticized your attitudes? Do you really think you can give lessons on how to be a good editor? It is basically never a good idea on wikipedia to try and use personal criticisms of those critiquing your behavior like this to defend your own actions. Which basically your entire reply is about someone else, and does very little to apologize, acknowledge, defend, or even explain your own behavior. That's not a good look. Your reply here is very much an example of incivility, and I say that as an uninvolved editor, with no bearing on any other user's behavior here. I have no idea how anyone else has behaved in this dispute, but I can clearly see that your reply here is bad news. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 14:08, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Is it uncivil to state a fact? They can criticize my behavior, but I can't criticize their? Just because an editor opens an ANI, he/she is presumed to be right and correct? And those involved have no right to defend themselves or explain themselves? This is a serious question. _-_Alsor (talk) 14:31, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

They can criticize my behavior, but I can't criticize their? Not what I said. There's a way to do so tactfully while primarily addressing the meat of their accusations en face. In general, it is best to allow others to expand upon whether or not the proposer's behavior is questionable, since you should primarily be focused on telling the rest of us why you are not a problem user.

Just because an editor opens an ANI, he/she is presumed to be right and correct Also not what I said. Absolutely the proposer's conduct at ANI is questioned and examined in the dispute, same as the accused. This is to discourage frivolous reports, and to make sure our sanctions are equitable and fair. I described why you as the accused should be focused on telling us - the uninvolved users why your actions actions are A) actually not problematic, B) problematic but not to the point of sanctions, or C) problematic but have mitigating factors, etc. etc.

And those involved have no right to defend themselves or explain themselves? - The exact opposite of what I said. You should be explaining yourself and your own actions.

In general, your style of asking questions like this creates a WP:BATTLEGROUND environment of pitting you against others in an adversarial style, which portrays your emotions as heightened and volatile. I would suggest you find a less confrontational way to discuss these things. Finding a way to talk about topics with other users without upsetting them (and keeping your cool) is a core virtue on Wikipedia, and something with which you appear to be having some difficulties. Figuring out a better discursive style would go a long way towards improving the tone of discussions and how other people respond to you on this website. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:22, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

A few lines above I say this: We communicate in writing. What you may misinterpret does not mean it is exactly what the person meant. You have to be more mature and assume that, many times, we will read and hear things we don't like without that implying that we are disrespected and that the person is rude. And I don't say that in vain. I emphasize it because someone can make the mistake of thinking that a person is being challenging or aggressive when his or her objective is not, in any way, that. You can be sure that my intention is very far from turning this space into a battlefield or a cockfight, and I'm sorry that it can be understood that way.

Nor can you pretend that in the face of certain statements that are being made I cannot take them with disagreement. And being dissenting is not synonymous with being rude. And I'm glad that you say that the conduct of the ANI proponent is also scrutinized. I hope and expect that it will be.

About your statement of portrays your emotions as heightened and volatile. This ad hominem accusation is a very serious one that deserves a lot of tact before being issued. You don't know me, nor have you followed my work on Wikipedia, and four written paragraphs cannot define the personality of any editor. Statements about the menage of emotions, which have an inevitable connection to mental health, cannot and should not be made in such a gratuitous manner, especially in the face of written language. I'm especially calm, and I'm sorry, again, that I could be misunderstood. But, no doubt, subjectivity often plays against us. I take your advice that I should cool down, but, and it is scientifically probable, you can't cool down something that is already cold. On other occasions I've been able to debate with other users and they have never defined me the way you have. Again, I apologize.

In the other occasion that I was opened a process in ANI, I apologized because I recognized that Carter and the rest of editors were right when they evaluated my attitude (I insist, uncivil attitude usually very punctual). On this occasion I'm certain that Carter is wrong, and that his intentions, this time, exceed the requirement of strict compliance with the manners of a good editor. _-_Alsor (talk) 16:11, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@Alsoriano97 no one can know your intent if you do not state it. We are left only with an interpretation based on what you write.

Re: This ad hominem accusation is a very serious one that deserves a lot of tact before being issued Just trying to help you understand why this has happened to you several times. If you are uninterested in that advice, I cannot help you. I never said anything about your personality as an editor, I only described why what you write here is not likely to be received well.

Overall, I am uninterested in having an extended and long conversation about this if you are not interested in improving the reception of what you write here. If you think you have done nothing wrong (which is the impression I get from your reply), then I cannot help you. You may feel free to have the last word, I will not reply. Have a great day. Please do not ping me in this conversation after this (directed to everyone, not you in particular) — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:11, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I will be wrong often and I recognize it whenever it happens, but I'm sure that this time I will not. I think it's important that you read what the IP user writes a little further down and you will understand, maybe and only maybe, why this discussion has me particularly indignant. In any case, I appreciate that you had the will to want to convey to me how what I wrote could be understood. Advice is never in vain. Have a nice day. _-_Alsor (talk) 18:29, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Frankly I think it's about time we blocked Carter00000 as a timesink who is incapable of working in a collaborative environment. I do not think it would be an exaggeration to state that about 50% of Carter00000's edits are attempts to get other editors sanctioned, almost all of which are meritless and lead nowhere. Their behaviour towards Alsoriano97 is, in my opinion, little more than harassment at this point. In the short time they have been here this user has filed two rejected arbitration requests [146] [147] a multitude of meritless ANI threads (some examples [148] [149]) obviously frivolous edit warring reports [150] etc. Their modus operandi when involved in a content dispute is to try to find some reason that the opposing side should be blocked or sanctioned and file an administrative request, rather than trying to discuss and build consensus.

They are guilty of all the misconduct they accuse others of. They file complaints that others are edit warring, while edit warring themselves to reinstate contested edits [151] and insisting that other editors need to reach a consensus to revert them [152] [153]. They accuse others of being uncivil, while themselves making unfounded claims accusing others of editing in bad faith [154] or being negligent [155]. They have just received an AE topic ban for exceedingly poor conduct [156].

The actual content edits made by Carter00000 are a minority of their contributions and are certainly not worth the constant drama and timewasting they cause trying to get others sanctioned. It is trivial to find examples of poor quality, incorrect or problematic edits. Here [157] they reinsert an item which is completely wrong and is unsupported by the provided source. Here they are edit warring to reinsert utter cruft that does not belong in a global current events portal [158] [159]. Here they are removing an item on the basis of WP:OR and unverified sightings [160]. etc. 192.76.8.86 (talk) 16:05, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Quite frankly, anon, I'm wondering what exactly led you to be here? You aren't involved, you weren't notified by Carter00000 (as I was), and you don't appear to frequent ANI. I think you should log in before anyone gets any strange ideas about who you might be --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 06:59, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@Gimmethegepgun I don't have an account and I have never had an account. If you are going to accuse me of wrongdoing provide some actual evidence, rather than just casting aspersions. There is no requirement to have been notified of a discussion to comment, and many of the notifications by carter00000 look to be canvasing anyone who might hold a grudge, rather than appropriate notifications [161]. 192.76.8.86 (talk) 08:24, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not saying that you need to be notified to comment. I'm saying that the lack of notification, combined with a lack of edits in ANI (suggesting that you likely don't routinely follow events here), makes it altogether strange that you even found this, let alone decided to research and comment on it --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 23:20, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

• I can't pretend to have looked into all of the protagonists' edits, but I see that this dispute involves Portal:current events. Why do we have such a page when this is an encyclopedia not a news outlet? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:41, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  Not sure what the purpose of this comment is. If you can't be bothered to comment on the actual dispute, and are just using it as an excuse to complain about P:CE, you should probably just start an RfC about that instead. Ionmars10 (talk) 20:51, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

  This is a comment on the actual dispute. It would not have happened if we followed policy. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:58, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

  Would it have, though? At most, you might be able to argue that a single dispute like this is an example of a broader problem with P:CE. Even in that case I'd still recommend starting an RfC and making your case there, since you're not gonna get a long-standing, highly trafficked part of the wiki deleted without seeking comment from the community as a whole. But really, I don't see how the nature of P:CE itself is relevant in this particular dispute. As far as I can tell, this user just happens to hang around there a lot and is engaging in generic edit-war behavior. If they weren't causing trouble there, they'd probably just go somewhere else on the wiki. Ionmars10 (talk) 21:16, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

  Just pointing out that claiming that I have "generic edit-war behavior" and that "this user just happens to hang around there a lot" is, again, totally unknown the way I work. Fortunately I've many things that occupy my time outside of Wikipedia. The important thing is to know how to make everything compatible. And I guess these unsubstantiated statements don't help this discussion. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

My addition of an item about the recent $2 billion Powerball win was just reverted by him. I'll admit a little bit of fault for not checking the revision history to see it had already been added and removed. However, I would like to point out that my version of the text put the jackpot in a global context by noting that it was the largest lottery winning anywhere in the world, ever, which should alleviate concerns about this only being of interest to Americans. Although that shouldn't even really be necessary, given how many items are just "thing happens in country X". Even ITN specifically tells users not to Oppose an item solely because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is generally unproductive, and this also applies to P:CE per this page: Significance of a subject [on P:CE] follows the same rules as for "In the news" ... (although ... slightly more inclusionist). Ionmars10 (talk) 20:46, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I recommend that you pay attention to my edits and you will see that what you are saying is totally incorrect. If this lottery had taken place in Greece or Thailand I would think exactly the same, but this is not debated here. If there's more traffic from American editors who add news of very low notability to Current Events (taking into account the consideration of the USA as a "super nation" for many Americans and that it's a Portal at the English Wikipedia), it's logical that it will be more visible the people who try to avoid an Americancentrism that many are still unable to recognize. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:42, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I don't want to forget. I also invite you to look at the countless times I have not removed news about the US, participated in US related nominations in "Candidates" to facilitate them being posted in Ongoing, RD or INTR and in favoring certain US personalities or events in this country to be in Year in Topic. As a tip. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:48, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Ah, so this is a push to "counteract" American-centric news, eh? You'll find that that's not a great reason for reverting other editors. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:24, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

This is a content dispute unworthy of administrative attention. An item was added to the current events portal, which was removed by Alsoriano97 citing lack of significance. Per WP:ONUS and WP:BRD at that point the editors seeking inclusion should have started a discussion to gain consensus for inclusion. The item was added again without consensus and without addressing the concerns raised (which is fair enough, you say you didn't notice the prior removal or objections of other editors), so it was removed again. This needs to be resolved through talk page discussion at this point.

The only person who's actions here are out of line are Carter00000's, who used this as an excuse to continue to harass Alsoriano97 with inappropriate edit warring notices [162] (two reverts stating a reason for removal is not edit warring by any reasonable definition) and who still does not appear to have understood how BRD and consensus works and is still insisting that editors need to gain consensus to revert what are obviously contested changes [163]. 163.1.15.238 (talk) 11:50, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

This category

• HollywoodREDIRECTOR (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Category:Police departments of On Patrol: Live has been created by HollywoodREDIRECTOR, and he is currently adding the pages about cities (not actual police departments) to it and has not responded to my question about why he is adding it to cities or what the purpose is for it. As I explained at Categories for Discussion, I find this to be a very useless addition, but maybe others would disagree. If editors here would agree that this is a useless category, I think it needs to be deleted, and this guy needs to stop adding it to pages. Among Us for POTUS (talk) 22:40, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

They've created these two unnecessary categories:

Category:Alphabetical lists

Category:Police departments of On Patrol: Live

They've also created Wikipedia:WikiProject Alphabetizing. I don't think we need an entire WikiProject with only one member --Nythar (💬-🎃) 22:58, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Seems like a natural task force for WP:WikiProject Lists. Levivich (talk) 01:40, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

• @Among Us for POTUS: @Nythar: Can you show us the prior discussions about this issue? --Jayron32 14:13, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Jayron32, I was just passing by here when I saw this report. No prior discussion took place because nothing happened. (I don't usually prefer immediately reporting someone before attempting to communicate with them, but there were several attempts at communication and HollywoodREDIRECTOR didn't reply.) Current discussions are taking place at two CfD discussions for the categories and an MfD for the WikiProject. — Nythar (💬-🎃) 18:34, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
    • If no prior discussion has happened, then why are we having the discussion here? ANI is a last resort for intractable behavioral problems and not a place to get content disputes resolved. Unless there is someone is getting blocked or banned, or an article needs to be protected or deleted, there's no reason to come here. --Jayron32 19:22, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

      User talk:HollywoodREDIRECTOR#Category:Alphabetical lists. GiantSnowman 19:25, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

      Jayron32, I agree it shouldn't have been taken here. The categories could have simply been nominated for deletion. Maybe we should advise the OP? — Nythar (💬-🎃) 21:59, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

      • I presume they can read. --Jayron32 11:34, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Vandalism by adding contents without resource & deleting sourced contents

• Michelledooley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user repeatedly removes sourced contents and adds his own version of truth. Please check his talk page where I have written to him. Moreover, he keeps adding contents without any source to separate Maz Jobrani (a comedian who was promoting NIAC for many years) from NIAC (an Iranian organization in the USA that recently turned to be lobbing for the brutal Islamic dictatorship of Iran in the USA), therefore there could be a case of "conflict of interest" between "Maz Jobrani" and the user "Michelledooley". Iranwatcher (talk) 00:31, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Your comments at User talk:Michelledooley appear under headings of "Please stop vandalism" and "Stop vandalism". That is not suitable for an edit like this which is very definitely not WP:VAND. The article talk page (Talk:Maz Jobrani) should have an explanation of the situation concerning that edit. All I can see are claims that Maz Jobrani is not a board member of NIAC from 2018. Is there any evidence that Jobrani is currently an advisory board member of the National Iranian American Council (NIAC)? The article has four wishy-washy references from 2016. I'm not looking for an explanation here—it should be at article talk. Johnuniq (talk) 02:45, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

("Michelle" is also probably not a "him") Julietdeltalima (talk) 00:16, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Kbrose

Repeated removals of valid content from automatic number announcement circuit without consensus. User has already been warned on the article's talk page but continues excising valid, factual information here, here, here. Looks to be gaming 3RR by keeping just under the radar in revert frequency, while using misleading edit comments like "cleanup" to disguise that he is repeatedly deleting all of the test numbers, including well-known system-wide facilities on major incumbent carriers. Last stable version before this user began his content-removal spree and the associated edit war looks to be this; yes, this has been going on for a month, despite the intervention of multiple users. 66.102.87.40 (talk) 05:41, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

By "multiple users", it seems you mean a shifting IP and an account with a total of 30 edits in five years. Perhaps the provided explanation (WP:NOTDIRECTORY) is valid? Since this report was added, another independent editor has joined in by again reverting the list of ANAC numbers. Johnuniq (talk) 06:53, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: I'm the uninvolved editor (though at that point I may be involved). As far as I saw, Kbrose is simply enforcing WP:NOTDIRECTORY, and the "shifting IP and account with a total of 30 edits in five years" (because I couldn't word that better myself) is trying to disrupt that. Regardless of whoever is at fault, I feel like everyone, including myself, has been assuming bad faith against each other, something we can hopefully fix. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contribs)} 08:09, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

You might want to check my edit history; I've had this same IP address for a year. The user who first noticed Kbrose's repeated removals of content and attempted to fix the problem is not me. This has been going on for a month with multiple users attempting to get him to stop, or at least agree to some sort of compromise where a few of the main system-wide numbers for major incumbent carriers (Verizon, Bell Canada, British Telecom, Telstra and the like) are left intact with the small, local numbers omitted. That small handful of examples does not a directory make, no matter how long this one individual continues with his my-way-or-the-highway removals of valid, factual and useful info. The numbers are needed for installers to determine which line they're plugged into in the analogue landline world. They're not a hack or crack.

I'm asking that the pending changes reviewer and rollbacker permissions be revoked from this user until such time as he is no longer removing valid content and no longer engaged in this edit war. I looked at Wikipedia:Requests_for_permissions#Removal_of_permissions but it just seems to send me here. 66.102.87.40 (talk) 12:38, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

more than 1,000 possibly bad edits

The last 1,000 and more edits by experienced editor User:Dicklyon used an automated editor to impose their view of comma treatment, which in at least some cases is completely wrong grammatically, and which also changes bluelinks to existing articles into redlinks, disconnecting them. I noted one such bad edit at their Talk page, but now I see they have made more than 1,000 edits in their campaign, and there may be a huge number of errors implemented by them. I don't happen to have "rollback" feature so it would not be convenient for me to roll back all of their edits, and it is a bigger cleanup problem than I can tackle right now myself. Could others please speak to this situation and how it can be fixed, please? --Doncram (talk,contribs) 06:19, 8 November 2022 (UTC) P.S. Please see this diff at their Talk page, in which I notified them of this ANI section at their Talk page, and where I see they had quickly replied to my first posting, and I requested they to continue here. There, they stated that they would fix all the problems, but I pointed out that without some further discussion showing understanding of the multiple types of problems caused and/or willingness to roll back ALL of the edits, that offhand I would rather expect they might fix some but not all of the errors introduced. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 06:29, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Some of us have fixed a good number of articles in this series of edits where they showed up in a maintenance tracking category. I'm sure we can get through the rest without a mass rollback. Dawnseeker2000 06:32, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Okay, now I see (but did not just read in detail) a discussion section on their page. I'm not clear if Dicklyon is making fixes, as their edits all show the same type of edit summary as the bad edit I noticed. Are they using the same edit summary??? Why would they not change the edit summary to indicate they are fixing their previous mistaken edits???

But, anyhow, which kind of errors are you "fixing"; would you be catching all the situations where disconnections were made? I understand that two-comma treatment "Bob Smith, Jr., House" or zero-comma treatment "Bob Smith Jr. House" is grammatically okay, though currently many editors prefer the latter. And I understand that "one-comma" treatment "Bob Smith Jr., House" (which is what Dicklyon was implementing instead of two-comma treatment) is completely wrong. But simply changing the bad treatment into zero-comma treatment does not address the disconnection issue. This applies to numerous NRHP list-articles which were set up with "two-comma" treatment, linking to both bluelink articles and to redlink articles. The linked pages would have to be moved to zero-comma names, first, before perhaps changing two-comma links to zero-comma ones. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 06:43, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

There were some articles in this situation that were listed at Category:Articles with missing files and myself and at least one other editor took care of it. I did not roll back any (just fixed manually) but I see that Sumanuil rolled back about 10 to 15 articles. Dawnseeker2000 06:47, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

That category would not identify any of the problems I am talking about. So their editing spree must be causing even more kinds of problems than either of us know about. I scrolled back by 1,000's in their edit history 12 times and did not reach the end yet... they have made more than 12,000 edits with a faulty process! --Doncram (talk,contribs) 07:08, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Don, the faulty process (not reviewing the semi-automated edits closely enough to catch these errors) was limited to 1200 rapid edits on Nov. 8 as far as I know. On the previous rounds of case cleanup and comma cleanup edits, there were some transient issues that were discovered, discussed, and fixed. If you have reason to believe there were any significant number of unaddressed errors before that, please point out one or two so we'll know what you're talking about. Dicklyon (talk) 15:39, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

This is the problem with automated or semi-automated edits. When it works, it's great. When it doesn't, it can introduce hundreds of new errors in minutes. Is speed really worth it?Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 06:56, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't think I introduced "hundreds" or errors, and it took hours, not minutes. But yes that's a risk of not careful enough use of semi-automated edits, and it's a slower process to fix. Sorry. I'm on it. Dicklyon (talk) 15:44, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Another problem is that they change the name of the linked-to article in one place (e.g. a NRHP county-level list-article, but not at other places (at disambiguation pages showing the place as either a bluelink or as a redlink with a supporting bluelink as required by wp:DABRL) and at other list-articles such as a list of rectories or Elks buildings or other building-type-specific lists.

And, now I recall, this editor's doing something very similar to NRHP pages has caused problems before, which were discussed out, and they promised NOT to do it any more without following a procedure to list all the pages changed at a work page set up specifically so that the second-level problems introduced by their zeal could be monitored and fixed. That work page is Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Hyphens vs. dashes issues, created specifically because Dicklyon had been charging ahead changing hyphens to dashes. Now, their charging ahead with changing two-commas to zero-commas creates the same problems. (Because existing bluelink target pages need to be moved, leaving redirects behind. And where target pages are redlinks, a redirect would need to be created, too, but those would be deleted automatically, so the workaround was to create that worklist which would allow for one to go back later and create the necessary redirects.) I doubt this is easy for others to immediately understand. But Dicklyon once did understand, and agreed to cooperate in a workaround process, which they are not doing here.

This is irritating. Could they be enjoined not to do any edits of these types? Or any mass-editing campaigns, or what? --Doncram (talk,contribs) 06:57, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Don, I've continued to list redlinked articles with dashes there in case you or someone creates the articles with hyphens. Did I miss something? Dicklyon (talk) 15:44, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, let's not draw & quarter him. Yes, there were some errors introduced, but these can be taken care of. As an AWB user, I create similar situations, and that is why I monitor the various tracking categories. If you're an editor with a goal (commas) then speed can become paramount, and I see he was saving pages at a rate of around 20 per minute on at least one occasion tonight. If you're an editor with a goal (typo-fixing, for example) and you also are focused on not populating those categories, the edit rate drops dramatically. Based on the article about him, he's 18 or 19 years older than I am, and I know my eyes fail me here and there. Dawnseeker2000 07:09, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

"these can be taken care of"??? by whom, how? Some/many/most of the errors introduced do not show up in a tracking category which could be addressed. You probably don't see all the types of problems caused, and I probably don't see them all either, because the edits are hitting completely different kinds of articles and situations (e.g. inside redlinks vs. inside bluelinks vs. outside links) --Doncram (talk,contribs) 07:35, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

"Speed can become paramount". For heaven's sake, why? Are the Internet Comma Police hovering over our website, threatening to swoop down and send Wikipedia to Comma Prison if the "errors" weren't changed immediately? These kinds of mass changes can most certainly wait for a consensus before they're made, and if errors are introduced they should certainly be corrected before moving on with the grand project. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:58, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• I'm sympathetic to what Dick is trying to achieve - the Jr. comma debate was settled many years ago, and most article titles now match that. But it does look like this mass edit was done without due care and attention, and most likely with the myriad different combinations of offsetting commas and other constructs, it isn't really possible to do a mass edit of this nature without verifying each and every one for breakages. Dick, you need to commit to slowing down and doing this task carefully, or else a topic ban on mass edits may be incoming.  — Amakuru (talk) 07:05, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Amakuru, it's not just that they would need to look for breakages where a bluelink was changed to a redlink. There also needs to be redirects set up from valid two-comma versions to also valid zero-comma versions, and that is different than a breakage. And they were doing neither, they were introducing completely bad one-comma errors!!! (This is not entirely easy to explain, sorry. But basically their approach (if they were actually making two-comma to zero-comma changes) is also setting up future disconnects/breakages which you can't see yet, so further action like the work page workaround is needed.) Their edits are not being part of any solution; they are the problem now, and IMHO they should not be allowed to be involved in addressing the Jr., and Sr. business at all (which would gradually be "fixed" naturally without them). --Doncram (talk,contribs) 07:19, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I see they have made more than 12,000 edits with a faulty process, causing multiple types of problems. Their very latest few edits included one more of the type I identified, too, it is not as if they have changed over to being a fixer. Can 12,000 or however many of their edits 20,000? 50,000? be rolled back, ASAP, before other edits are made to those articles and then rollback cannot be used? This is on the scale of a pretty big bot run, and they have been running an unapproved bot in effect. If one does that, wouldn't one get blocked??? --Doncram (talk,contribs) 07:08, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Kill-It-With-Fire (mass undo) is a thing now, so it doesn't matter so much if edits happen after theirs. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 12:33, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

By the way, is it appropriate to remove commas before Jr. or Sr.? (e.g. this edit) Nythar (💬-🎃) 07:14, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Nythar, it is not completely simple. In that edit, they made one change which is okay (in shifting to a now-somewhat-preferred form, but not really a necessary change), in a case where there was no comma following the "Joe Smith, Jr." But also they made one change that introduced grammatical error, where there was a comma following it. In the second change, in effect, they changed from "two-comma" to "one-comma" type, which is just absolutely wrong. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 07:29, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Not "absolutely wrong", but I agree I should have removed another comma there. I further fixed that article just now; it had quite a few missing and extra commas that nobody had cared about so far. Dicklyon (talk) 15:30, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

See MOS:JRSR: Do not put a comma before Jr. or Sr. (or variations such as Jnr). Ljleppan (talk) 07:30, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I was just interested to know the MOS for these. Nythar (💬-🎃) 07:33, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

But, User:Ljleppan, it does not follow that removing a comma before a Jr. or Sr. always constitutes an improvement. Instead it can be introducing a gross error. Changing "Joe Smith, Jr., House" to "Joe Smith Jr., House" is making an absolute error. (While changing "Joe Smith, Jr., House" to "Joe Smith Jr. House" would be okay grammatically and is, i guess, now somewhat preferred.) And there are the immediate breakage problems which can be caused if the phrase is part of a bluelink, and the implied problem that the bluelinked page needs to be moved and a redirect set up. And there is delayed/hidden/future breakage-type problem caused too, when the phrase is part of a redlink, esp. where that redlink is used in other articles too. So one partial fix to their type of campaign would be to prohibit them from making any change to a redlink, but rather allow us all to wait until the redlink is turned into a bluelink by article creation. --07:41, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Also they shouldn't be changing citations. This edit[164] introduced 2 citation errors (cites need to match sources, not WP usage) and also broke a link in V-12 Navy College Training Program. Given the quantity of edits, even a small error rate is going to throw up a lot of errors. Semi-automated tools should automate the data entry, not the editors judgement. This is very annoying. Jahaza (talk) 08:51, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Yet more damage to citations[165]. This comma is in the title of the cited Senate resolution. There's also damage to sports articles.

• 2016–17 Pac-12 Conference men's basketball season
• 2020 Atlantic Coast Conference men's soccer season
• 2016 Mountain West Conference football season
• 2016 Atlantic Coast Conference men's soccer season
• 2016 North Carolina A&T Aggies football team
• 2017 Mountain West Conference football season
• 2019 Colonial Athletic Association men's soccer season

Here Jr. and Sr. are in reference to college player year and have nothing to do with postnominals. With thousands (tens of thousands?) Of edits, how many of these are there! Jahaza (talk) 09:02, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Given that Dick seems to have paid almost no attention to whether the commas in question were part of an offsetting pair, as well as removing them in renditions of titles of external sources, which I don't think should be edited that way, I'm starting to think a mass rollback may be necessary, unless Dick or anyone else is prepared to examine them one by one. I have to say I'm disappointed by this, as I consider Dick a good editor and while his zeal and determination to see through certain style issues is well-known, his heart is in the right place. What's happened here isn't good though, unless we really are dealing with only a handful of cases.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:49, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• This seems to be something of a repeat of an earlier automated mass edit campaign by Dicklyon a few months ago. (See [166].) Perhaps Dicklyon shouldn't be using automation to make edits? Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:10, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

More than 30,000 uninformed/faulty edits with edit summary including "(via WP:JWB)", and many more thousands with a different mass editing error: I paged back 30 times 1,000 edits per page of their contributions, and am still amongst their automated edits.

And then I am seeing a bunch more different edits which I also disagree with, where they are willy-nilly changing titles of pages about proper noun things into mixed upper and lower case titles. Which seems completely wrong. E.g. this diff about a disambiguation page on the Sun Belt Basketball Tournament with edit summary indicating they are applying their view of what's proper for upper vs. lower case "norm" ("(Dicklyon moved page Sun Belt Basketball Tournament to Sun Belt basketball tournament: case norm)"). In this specific case it seems they did move the constituent pages (incorrectly, IMHO) already. I have seen them blithely making case changes to articles on proper noun places listed on, and formally named by, the National Register of Historic Places (NRHP) program of the U.S. government. (E.g. they would change "Bob Smith House", listed on the NRHP as "Bob Smith House" rather than "4125 E. 4100 Rd." to "Bob Smith house", which is just wrong: the formal name of the place in all usage by national, state, and local historic governing bodies, and in local tourist and information pages, and in pages of the local historic house museum etc., is the proper name "Bob Smith House"). I had noticed a few of those and regret now that I did not raise a general problem about those edits, which now I think number in the thousands, or many many thousands, as well.

Dicklyon has been notified of this discussion and directed here, and has not commented. Offhand I do not believe they understand the facts of the multiple types of errors they have been introducing, and I do not believe they could fix them all, even if they plausibly claimed they would revisit all 30,000 or more (60,000?) edits in the last few days, plus many thousands more of at least the case-change edits over a longer period. Their claim in immediate response to my first talk message to them was "OK, yes, I messed up and will review and fix that and other recent edits." I note they did not make any fixes since then, and it is certainly not just "recent edits", and this is a big mess. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:17, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I also noticed these case edits as well to basketball tournament names (when I was fixing comma errors introduced in some), but wasn't sure if there was a consensus about capitalizing the tournament names. --Jahaza (talk) 17:03, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• I find these mass automated edits to be problematic. It is putting the burden on the rest of us to try to catch and fix the mistakes. See, e.g., here, [167], here. Cbl62 (talk) 16:29, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Have to say that I noticed issues with some of Dick's edits related to the basketball tournament case moves mentioned above, most of which were done in September IIRC. When moving titles in various articles, he made case changes to reference titles that happened to be similar to the event titles. Examples can be found at [168], [169], [170], [171], and [172] among others, and I'm sure there are many similar instances I'm not aware of. As someone who cares about upholding MoS standards when possible, I can't tell you how annoying it is to have clear errors mixed in with legitimate changes and have to spend time looking at each individual piece of an edit for problems. My hope is that Dick takes this and the above feedback to heart and exhibits a little more caution with his editing, as he says he will do going forward. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:14, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
    • Giants2008, it would be polite to let me know if you see mistakes I've made, rather than save them up for ANI. Dicklyon (talk) 05:11, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Re the consensus on baseball and basketball tournaments and such, a good place to check for discussions is WT:MOSCAPS#Concluded. These all had clear consensus, enough to get a bot to do the hundreds of moves. I was pretty careful in the cleanup edits, but of course a few errors may have slipped through. Dicklyon (talk) 05:07, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes I screwed up

By going too fast and not reviewing each edit carefully enough, I did let quite a few errors through (that is, removed some commas that should have been left, and left some that should have been removed), so now I have to either revert all or review and fix all. I appreciate those who have already reverted or fixed errors that that they noticed. I'll get started today (but my editting availability comes in blocks, so I beg your patience). Dicklyon (talk) 16:45, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I believe we're talking about approximately 1200 edits on 08 November, which is when I was hurrying through. If anyone sees errors in any older edits, I'd like to hear about that, too, but that's not what any of the ones mentioned above are about, in spite of one user's comment that this problem goes back many thousands of edits. There were a few accidental edits of file names earlier, and I did several times thank Sumanil for noticing and fixing those; it's great that they are automatically flagged. Dicklyon (talk) 16:52, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I just noticed I also got about 40 thanks for these comma fixes. It's good to know that some of these at least are recognized as worthwhile improvements. Again, I apologize for the ones that were not, and I'll be working on finding and fixing more of those. Dicklyon (talk) 16:57, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Going through the reverts first, to see how I messed up, I find three main categories: First, in names of historic houses I broke some links by taking out one comma instead of the two it would take to avoid the redirects. So I've got a JWB pattern that will help me find and fix all those; and I'll check them carefully. Second, I changed a few file names; glad to see those get fixed almost automatically by Sumanuil. Third, I was surprised to find that in sports articles, ", Jr.," or ", Sr.," after a name actually are non-restrictive, and need those commas since they are college years; probably would be better as ", junior," and ", senior,". I don't know whether those have all been reverted; I'll be checking for more. Again, sorry, I got in an inappropriate rush last night. Dicklyon (talk) 18:45, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

By the way, several of the complaining editors above have complained in the past about my quantities of edits, but are generally unable to point out any errors, since my error rate is generally well below 1% (unlike last night's 1200 edits, where it may be closer to 10%). So let's focus on what I got wrong, and just acknowledge that I did about 100,000 other edits this year, with relatively few errors. I'm not doing this just for fun, but to improve WP, OK? Dicklyon (talk) 18:50, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I advised you in the past, to slow down. A speeding train, always runs the risk of causing destruction. GoodDay (talk) 19:04, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your advice, on commas. Dicklyon (talk) 05:03, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

I guess I'm doing something right. Three different users thanked me for the above comment. Dicklyon (talk) 23:30, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Working through these is slow. What I rushed through at about 4 seconds each is taking about a minute per review and fix. So it will keep me busy for a lot of editing hours. Dicklyon (talk) 05:20, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

User:ImprovetheArabicUnicode

ImprovetheArabicUnicode (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has created two very problematic articles (Goycha-Zangezur and Rizvan Talibov) full of clearly false/non-factual statements based on either original research or biased, partisan and unreliable sources and has added info connected to the concepts on many other articles [173]. The user also seem to out himself on his profile page [174] that he has used accounts previously that have been blocked for sockpuppeting [175] and for other reasons [176]. AntonSamuel (talk) 06:35, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

The accounts listed are a strange collection. The first claims to be Pakistani and made a very small number of edits from 2006 to 2014. The second doesn't exist. The third only ever edited their user page and only for a day in 2019, and includes Urdu (so might be the same person despite the user page stating South Africa). The fifth and sixth both have a handful of edits on various pages of languages in and near Pakistan, although the edits are three years apart. The fourth is the only one with an extensive edit history, and is blocked as a sock of this case, the accounts of which seem to all have Pakistani-related interests. No idea if these are all the same person, but there are some links. The ImprovetheArabicUnicode account has a few Pakistan-related edits before jumping over to the aforementioned Armenia-Azerbaijan topic area. Courtesy ping to Girth Summit and RoySmith, who have recently been involved in the SPI and might know more about this case. CMD (talk) 07:23, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis which SPI are we talking about here? -- RoySmith (talk) 13:45, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Cyber.Eyes.2005 CMD (talk) 13:48, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

RoySmith - Muhafiz-e-Pakistan was split off into Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Muhafiz-e-Pakistan - similar editing interests to CyberEyes, but CU data consistently geolocated to a different part of CyberEyes's country, and recently was editing from a different country/continent. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:33, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I ran a check, since they were claiming to be a sock of a blocked user, and they are  Confirmed to Muhafiz-e-Pakistan and their last sock, محفوظ ہمارے زبان. I don't see any other accounts on their latest IP, which looks like it's stable, and located in the new country. I haven't looked at the old accounts their claim to be theirs, I assume they're long-since stale. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:48, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

The Sri Lanka and unsourced WP:RGW

The Sri Lanka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Whilst this user has made some good contributions, they seem to be out to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS when it comes to the topics of Sri Lanka, Buddhism and Hinduism. They don't seem to think that they need to provide sources (see their talkpage), and just edit war their additions in (see their contribs, clear patten of revert, revert revert going on), with summaries along the lines of "stop spreading prejudice" and "Erroneous" (yet hadn't provided any sources). They have continued past a final warning, and don't seem interested in discussing anything except for telling everyone that they are spreading prejudice and racism. A shorter block may bring them to their senses, and give them some time to read up on Wikipedia:Verifiability, as they seem to be (mostly, I think) WP:HERE. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 07:48, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• Mako's concerns (and several others') are justified - notably that after responding to an initial reminder to use RS, when they then started receiving warnings, they give such comments as Why are you so interested in inciting racism and religious prejudice? Wikipedia is not a platform for spreading prejudice.. A reasonable case could be made for a personal attack, but even AGFing that, the non-sourcing issues are legion. I'm not sure a temporary block is likely to work. Instead, I'd go for an indef block (not a ban), liftable by any admin who is satisfied when Sri Lanka engages suitably. Underlying that, I'd also impose a community 1RR restriction. Nosebagbear (talk) 12:31, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

  Here, they just revert me to re-add their unsourced content, whilst claiming that my edit was somehow "Erroneous".

  Here they remove content, mostly to a single source (Lehr, 2019) claiming it "incites racism". Oddly, they make no challenge of the reliability of the source though, as they don't attempt to remove other content sourced to "Lehr (2019)". This suggests that the issue is more IDONTLIKEIT than believing the source to be unreliable. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 13:12, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

My last edit to Buddhism in Sri Lanka filled in a citation. The "prejudicial" content edit by The Sri Lanka is still in place. (edit - restored the sourced content Adakiko (talk) 00:43, 9 November 2022 (UTC)) Adakiko (talk) 19:45, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Stefanowski IP

There's an IP address Special:Contributions/200.69.80.131 that's posting a giant POV wall of text [177] about Bob Stefanowski across multiple pages. It appears to be the same person as Special:Contributions/179.19.61.228 which was doing this yesterday. Could an admin block the 200 ip? It's getting tiring playing whac-a-mole and I've warned the first IP twice already. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 13:56, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

No idea what that's about, but since it's a mass spamming of external links and copy paste info across irrelevant pages I've reverted everything and blocked the IP for 31 hours for disruption. It may be partially relevant on one or two of those pages, but this seems more like a hit job of pre-prepared text. Canterbury Tail talk 14:10, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm also struggling to figure out why an IP geolocating to Colombia would've sought to publish this kind of spam. It's pretty weird. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 04:10, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Stale revert war and refusal to discuss at List of warez groups

Back on October 27, I removed a Non-free screenshot from List of warez groups and marked the image for deletion as unused non-free. I was reverted in both cases by Beyond My Ken (talk · contribs), who also left an edit summary falsely accusing me of malice [178]. So, I began a discussion on the talk page and notified him on his own talk page of the discussion. He ignored this entirely, and over the following 6 days made many other edits to other articles and was quite active elsewhere. Since he was refusing to discuss, I again removed the image from the article. At this point, he reverted me again saying there was "no consensus to remove" and added a similar comment to the article talkpage discussion [179]. The comment did not respond to my questions/concerns about the image whatsoever, so is still not a good faith attempt to participate in the discussion. Instead he is seemingly weaponizing WP:CONSENSUS passive-aggressively by saying consensus is required but refusing to participate in my attempts to gain consensus. This is bad faith, disruptive editing and not helpful to the project. EnPassant♟♙ (talk) 16:58, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

This is a content dispute. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:38, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it's a content dispute and probably not appropriate for this board. That said, the "D" is missing from the WP:BRD cycle here: ...using reasons based in policy, sources, and common sense; they can also suggest alternative solutions or compromises that may satisfy all concerns. It should be possible to justify the status quo beyond "it's been that way and I like it", especially when reasons have been given as to why the status quo should change. Maintaining a non-free image of a defunct website mentioned in a long list doesn't speak for itself. Mackensen (talk) 23:22, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

How long have you been getting away with this? You insist that someone follow a process (making a personal attack in the process), they attempt to follow that process and then you refuse to take part in it? The content dispute is beside the point. Now you've also templated a regular. Your behavior is reprehensible, frankly. EnPassant♟♙ (talk) 02:30, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

I am following the process. I've taken part in the discussion - you just don't like what I'm saying, which is that you need a consensus to remove the image - so go get one. If you get a consensus, there will be no beef from me. But, of course, you choose instead to WP:FORUMSHOP here. First you attempt to remove an image, and insure it stay removed by deleting the FUR from the image's page, then you bring a content dispute to ANI when you don't get a consensus to remove, now you're going around the back by attempting to have the image deleted. Why haven't you gone to WP:3O instead of sneaking around? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:01, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

It would help an eventual third opinion process if you respond affirmatively on the talk page of the article explaining why you disagree with EnPassant's edit. Stare decesis isn't a helpful reason on its own given the absence of any previous discussion on the question. Mackensen (talk) 03:31, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Your response was obstructive. You didn't respond to my question regarding the value of the image to the article, you engaged in a circular argument demanding I obtain consensus... which is what I was attempting to do by starting the discussion. So clearly that avenue of consensus building was closed to me. I decided to gain consensus at a deletion discussion, and now that discussion isn't going your way so you're accusing me of forum shopping... when you were the one reverting me and demanding I reach consensus. If you can't see the problem with that I don't know what to tell you. EnPassant♟♙ (talk) 15:59, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

And templating a regular is "reprehensible"? Do you actually know what that means? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:02, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

I mean, they list a whole bunch of things (personal attack, etc.), then they say "reprehensible." I would guess that that last sentence was for the entire paragraph, not just the sentence right before. El_C 08:52, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Demanding someone follow a process and then obstructing it is cynical and dishonest. EnPassant♟♙ (talk) 15:55, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• BMK, as Mackensen notes, you can't argue for something to be there because it's been there. The essay Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus" speaks to that directly, while WP:SILENCE does more generally. Likewise, at the FDD discussion, you don't even provide a rational beyond declaratively stating that the fair use "isn't faulty," and that's it. You also speak of a ploy ("another ploy," even), also without explaining any context. And then WP:FORUMSHOP, which, I suppose possibly, if you really squint at it. Anyhow, the OP states in the opening that you've been stonewalling their requests to WP:ENGAGE — which would be conduct, even if at the heart of it is content (as are most conduct matters). As well, couple of days ago, you stated: You made a change to the status quo of the article, and it was contensted. This means that you need a consensus to make that change. You do not have one. Lack of discussion is not consensus (diff). Were you saying you intended on stonewalling them indefinitely?

Now, beyond that, even with substantive argument, that is not how it works. If it were, a contending version would always be at the mercy of a longstanding one. If that was so, everything would be Wikipedia:Consensus required. So, while WP:ONUS and WP:BRD are, indeed, generally recommended, one can't expect to gain major advantage from invoking either (again, even with a substantive argument). So, you need to take a step back and reassess. Reassess how you conduct yourself; how that conduct is being perceived by others. If you can will yourself towards that kind of meaningful reflection, well, then I'd be impressed, and the dispute may resolve okay in the end. But if not, then it'll obviously become more likely for it to end up... not so okay. So, now there's two concurrent discussions: (1) at WP:FDD, please discuss the merits for the fair use rational, etc. (2) Here, the rest. Thank you. El_C 08:52, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yeah, there's really no defending BMK in a situation where the other person specifically started a discussion on the talk page, specifically notified BMK of the discussion, and waited for 6 days with no reply before reinstating their edit. BMK basically reverted just saying "I disagree", and then because he said "I disagree" claimed he could start saying "consensus required". Obviously that is not the case and it is a very serious detriment to the collaborative spirit of the project. BMK has a bad habit of occasional petty edit warring and he overwhelmingly gets let off the hook for it because he's a reasonable person, a highly respected pillar of the community, and someone who usually has an understandable rationale behind his actions on a human level, even when he is in the wrong. Both for all he contributes to the project and for his reasonable temperament, he is generally trusted to self-regulate. I respect and have defended BMK. But this type of stonewalling behavior is really bad. I was literally just castigating someone for this exact behavior, telling them "You are lucky not to be fully blocked for a lengthy period for your ownership behavior." I have issued lengthy blocks over such behavior against established editors which have withstood community scrutiny. I don't wish to see BMK dragged over this, but OP did everything right in this situation and BMK crossed firmly into what I consider to be routine block territory.

BMK, it appears to me that EnPassant was attempting routine copyright compliance, which you mistook as a malicious attempt at backdoor deletion of an image that you have previously saved from deletion. I think all of us can understand that becoming defensive is human nature, but you definitely crossed the line here and you should never think that you're entitled to revert someone if you're refusing to engage in their attempts at discussion. It may not seem like a big deal, but I have seen situations like this deteriorate into editors being gaslighted and having their experience here turned into a living hell, and when they reported it and I intervened as an uninvolved admin, that same living hell was unleashed upon me.

"Reprehensible" is not an exaggeration, and BMK should apologize for his failure to engage in communication and dispute resolution to deescalate the situation, at a minimum. Regarding the content dispute, it is at FFD so it is being handled appropriately. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 09:52, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Why is this even a discussion? The image clearly fails WP:NFCC criteria 8 (because a blurry screenshot of a website doesn't increase the understanding of anything about that fairly obscure group which are mentioned in a single line of prose) and so "consensus" is irrelevant anyway. Black Kite (talk) 11:43, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Even if it wasn't covered by NFCC, The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. Disputed content defaults to being left out. If BMK doesn't have consensus to include the image, it needs to be left out until they do. --Jayron32 15:27, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  The NFCC also echos this and specifies that in dispute situations, the burden is 100% on the person who wants to include the content, and the person who wants to remove it has no obligation to defend their position. The NFCC can be subjective, but whether they actually apply is irrelevant…OP did nothing wrong and BMK was obligated in that situation to actively defend his content. When he failed to do so, there was no dispute, so OP moving forward should have been routine. When BMK continued stonewalling, OP was completely justified in both reporting him and starting an FFD. Apart from this being stonewalling behavior, which as I’ve said is blockable on its own, it’s stonewalling to include non-free content which only makes it that much worse. Administrators and the community take copyright issues very seriously, even too seriously at times. It is an area where there is very little tolerance for ineptitude or misbehavior. I commend @EnPassant for their exemplary conduct in a difficult situation. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 23:13, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Masses of poorly sourced content added to crime articles

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• CoverageDragon (talk · contribs) has been warned by Acroterion and Diannaa for disruptive edits and copyright violation. Hasn't slowed the train; everything needs to be checked for sources and possible copyright issues. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:0:0:0:CC3A (talk) 17:12, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

See Zodiac Killer, as one example, where much unsourced content appears to have been taken from a fansite, after warnings by Diannaa. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:0:0:0:CC3A (talk) 17:18, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Interesting - see contribs of User:0HH0LYN1GHT, who was doing the same thing on some of the same articles before being blocked a few weeks prior to this account showing up. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 17:59, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Bbb23 blocked that account--he's an expert on block evasion. Wouldn't be surprised if other similar accounts are involved. Thanks, 2601:19E:4180:6D50:0:0:0:CC3A (talk) 18:06, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Same at Ted Bundy--lots of crime details copied from or paraphrasing crime fan websites. I can't access some of the articles, but again, suggest mass reversions for copyright issues, poorly sourced content and block evasion/WP:LTA. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:0:0:0:CC3A (talk) 18:10, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

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IP editor states that they are a troll, I believe them

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IP editor Special:Contributions/2603:6080:F740:3580:94A5:D90C:E170:15AF states on my talk page that they are an Internet troll (diff). Previously, they made two non-NPOV and possible OR edits to Wes Moore, which I reverted. I think we should take them at their word and accept that they are WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. I'll go add the required notice to their talk page now. —Ganesha811 (talk) 04:40, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Blocked by User:Orangemike. Stifle (talk) 09:38, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Personal attack against article subject on talk page

Earlier today, I initiated a civil discussion at Talk:Aseem Malhotra, which received some constructive response, save this comment on Mr. Malhotra's character. "Nonsense" is perhaps only mildy rude, yet to question the sanity of a named person is a whole other affair. I moved to refactor the uncouth part of Bon courage's comment, in lieu of removing it entirely (which could also be justified). The user restored the personal attack with an unhelpful edit summary, and left some templated warning on my user talk, which I found kind of unnecessary. I went ahead and used a different template, to collapse the uncouth comment, only to be reverted again by Bon courage. Not content to reinstate the personal attack on the talk page, they also went ahead and attacked me personally, calling me a pain, and started casting aspersions about my engagement with the article, as well as my personal views. I also received another unpleasant message on my talk page, in which Bon courage showed no remorse for their repeated personal attacks, but instead elected to "warn" me about some discretionary sanctions. According to WP:RTP, WP:RPA & WP:RUC, it is perfectly reasonable to refactor personal remarks on article talk page. Please help me out here. Nutez (talk) 21:43, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Malhotra claims his diet can protect against Covid-19 and claims that MRna vaccines are dangerous. His diets were criticised by multiple reliable health sources as actively dangerous and numerous of his writings have been described as simply false ("He was quoted later as claiming his mother's vegetarian diet contributed to her premature and painful death"). Per WP:PSCI I don't think Bon courage's edits are problematic. Black Kite (talk) 21:51, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
• If somebody comes out with quackery calling that quackery "quackery" is not a personal attack. In fact it's kind of necessary for WP:NPOV. The OP needs to get a WP:CLUE. Bon courage (talk) 21:54, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Sure, his claims are fringe and outside of mainstream opinion on dietary guidelines. That should be duly described in the article prose. Does that mean that it is acceptable to attack him on the talk page with snide comments? How is that constructive? Nutez (talk) 21:57, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Calling a view nonsense isn't attacking a person - especially if the view is in fact nonsense. Nor is asking for a sane source - preferably all sources should be sane. MrOllie (talk) 21:59, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Why use the adjective "sane" at all? Wikipedia:Reliable sources does not operate with that kind of terminology… Nutez (talk) 22:08, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  You will find that most Wikipedia editors don't sound like a walking, talking policy page. Some people prefer informality. MrOllie (talk) 22:11, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Yeah ... Bon courage could have perhaps formulated their replies in a less aggressive manner and actually explained to you why you were wrong to mess with their talkpage comments, but they are correct in that there is no problem describing pseudoscientists as pushing pseudoscience (or in the case of the Covid stuff, complete nonsense). Black Kite (talk) 22:00, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  They also attacked me personally, calling me a pain and told me to go away. Do you think it is acceptable to cast aspersions about another editor's editing, like Bon courage decided to do? Nutez (talk) 22:05, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Black Kite: You don't think this is a personal attack? Nutez (talk) 22:06, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, as I said, they could - and should - have been less aggressive, but you shouldn't have been redacting their talkpage posts in the first place. Black Kite (talk) 22:08, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Note this is not a newbie editor and no stranger to ANI. They should have a clue. Bon courage (talk) 22:09, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Wikipedia's inconsistency never fails to astound me: [180]. When I'm in a good mood, I would say that this depends on whether the preponderance of reliable sources describe it as quackery or something akin to it – and I'm with Bon courage in this case. When I'm in a bad mood, I'd say that it's all a matter of which editors one pisses off. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:10, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Interesting discussion; thanks for the link. I have to say I agree with this comment

  I think it is. I would say: don't call a person a quack, or their work quackery, or bad science, etc... unless you're citing/quoting a source who says that. Editors' personal opinions that papers are quackery or bad science etc. are irrelevant. Our opinions about sources are irrelevant. What is relevant is the opinion of other WP:RS. So if other RS say this is quackery or bad science, quote them, and then it's not a BLP issue.
  — User:Levivich 02:14, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  Bon courage's comments were well beyond the pale, and totally unnecessary for a productive discussion. Upon restoring the attack on Mr. Malhotra's character, they also attacked me several times, calling me a pain and questioned my motives. Now they even want me booted off Wikipedia entirely. Nutez (talk) 22:22, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Don't let him get you down, my friend... I have to suspect Bon Courage knows EXACTLY what he is doing and that his goal in being so vitriolic with other editors is to, if not remove them from the project, at least discourage them so much that they remove themselves. Le Marteau (talk) 22:55, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Which, I presume, is why you come up with edit summaries like this? [181] This has suddenly become a quite interesting thread as regards more than one editor. Black Kite (talk) 23:18, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  That edit summary is one of the finest, most truthful things I have ever said on Wikipedia, and I stand by it 100%. The day Bon Courage gets banned from this work will be the day I buy the thickest steak I can find, and a bottle of wine, and celebrate. In my almost 20 years of editing, this individual is, if not THE worst, ONE OF the worst editors I have ever encontered for their pattern of tendentious editing , and something needs to be done about it. Le Marteau (talk) 06:37, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

  So let me get this straight. When he's being vitriolic towards you, he's a menace and a fiend and needs to be banned. When you're being vitriolic towards him, that's alright and couldn't possibly be a personal attack. Is that your narrative? Ravenswing 08:10, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

  No, that is not my narrative. I invite you to read my talk page, the "Your recent conduct on article talk pages (August 2022)" section in particular. Note that Bon went by a different name then, but you'll know immediately who I am referring to. Once you digest that, I think you will understand where I am coming from further. Or, if that does not make my "narrative" clear, feel free to IM me where I will feel freer to open up with what I TRULY think about this individual, and the nature of my dispute with him. Le Marteau (talk) 08:21, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

  I don't know what's up with Le Marteau. They seem to be fine doing low-level work but are apt to go to DEFCON ONE over a detail in content disputes. I invite any editor to review this[182] section of their User Talk page (or that page more generally) to get a feel for this. It should also be noted this editor has a history of socking/harassment (see block log). The weird grudge bearing is concerning. Bon courage (talk) 08:25, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

  My conduct in the section you link may have been my finest hour on Wikipedia, and I am quite proud of it. That you think that linking to it serves to discredit me serves only to demonstrate how out of it you are. (note to the reader: "Bon" changed his name shortly after this episode... can't say as I blame him... truly a disgraceful episode here by Bon. His perennial defense by Shibbolethink is a sight to behold as well. Le Marteau (talk) 08:29, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

• As someone new to this situation, I would characterize Bon Courage's tone here as "succinct". And perhaps a bit too curt, but only to a mild level which is understandable when repeatedly dealing with POV editors. I would not say that this runs anywhere near WP:NPA and in fact is very in keeping with WP:PSCI. OP, on the other hand, is rapidly careening towards WP:NOTHERE if they continue to push POV nonsense as is described above. They don't appear to be here to build an encyclopedia. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 23:36, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  I agree with that assessment. I also think it's pretty unlikely that anything in this thread is going to require the use of administrator tools. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:39, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Shibbolethink: You are very welcome to comb through my contributions to find evidence which substantiates the ASPERSION that I am a POV editor, a pain in the a*rse or somehow partisan. I've contributed for many years to this project, on a variety of issues. @Tryptofish: Considering the fact that Bon courage doubled down on their behavior, called me a pain on three separate occasions, and started vilifying my presence on the project, I do think there is an issue here. From the very relevant thread you linked earlier, there seems to be a widespread belief among the skeptic community on WP, that anything is fair game when discussing fringe, non-mainstream individuals, and that one is at liberty to call them every pejorative under the sun, since they have been placed in the category "alternative". Nutez (talk) 00:01, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

  Nutez, I think it's worth noting where I came down in that discussion. We've actually had an ArbCom case about skepticism-related content. Wikipedia does not give equal weight to mainstream science and non-mainstream science, nor should it. You escalated the dispute considerably when you tried to template Bon courage's comments, and it's time now to deescalate. I've advised that no admin action should be taken against anyone, and I strongly suggest that you should take that result as the best you are going to get. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:14, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

  You are correct in the assertion that Wikipedia does not give equal weight to mainstream science and non-mainstream science, nor should it. I, however, was talking about comments on article talk pages, not article prose. Do you think hyperbolic, derogatory language like "nonsense" or "claptrap" is helpful for a productive conversation? Are biography talk pages a free-for-all if the person described is an alternative medicine guy? And is it acceptable to cast aspersions about an editor objecting to the uncivil comments? This comment of yours in the discussion you linked seems to support my refactoring of Bon courage's commentary, seeing as I only removed the offending bits, as opposed to the entire comment.

  If one doesn't like hatting the comment, it would have been easy to use the redacted template, and a user talk message about please tone down the language, instead of going straight to saying it was a policy violation with all that implies – and that would have avoided this entire flare-up. There was no need to remove an entire talk page section over some phrases that could, instead, have been redacted
  — User:tryptofish 17:07, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  Nutez (talk) 00:28, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

• Being completely uninvolved, I find Nutez behaviour both on the talk page and especially here far more problematic. There was nothing wrong with Bon courage's comment (we call a spade a spade). In contrast, Nutez has removed parts of Bon courage's comment, attacked Bon courage (as Black Kite points out) and displayed a refusal to WP:HEAR the comments from numerous editors here. My recommendation is for everyone to just walk away from this. Jeppiz (talk) 23:39, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
• Nutez asks above "Why use the adjective "sane" at all? Wikipedia:Reliable sources does not operate with that kind of terminology". MrOllie's answer, "Some people prefer informality", seems to miss the point. Talking about people as lacking sanity is not informal, it's uncivil. For better or for worse, when editors are (perceived to be) right on content, WP:5P4 just isn't applied to them. I've had Bon Courage tell me I think your arguments are insane more than a half year ago [183], and it still stings. Depending on personal context, bringing up sanity can be very hurtful. Yes, this kind of thing does have the potential to drive good editors away. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 23:46, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Where does Bon courage use the word "sane" to describe a fellow user? — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 00:04, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

  In the incident brought up by the OP, they used the word in reference to a BLP.[184] In the incident I brought up just above, it was in reference to me.[185] Of course you could go the 'it refers to your arguments, not you' route, but I think that would be unhelpfully apologetic. Let me use the opportunity of formulating this reply to add that I too believe that admin action is not needed. My point is simply that in this text-only medium it's easy to use words that can do far more damage than one either intends or expects. It would be useful if that would receive more recognition, ideally from Bon Courage themselves, but if not from them then at least from their peers on this website. If we can move a bit in that direction, this report may end up not being entirely a waste of time. If we can't, I understand, but then I'd suggest not commenting and letting it get closed soon. Sorry to have added to it in that case. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 00:59, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

  What deceptive, hypocritical rubbish. We want to use sane sources for fringe topics and saying so is not an attack on any person, merely a informal way of stating Wikipedia's actual requirements for such topics. Similarly your old grudge about being caught yourself (by Hob Gadling[186]) using bizarre illogic and personal attacks[187] against me (saying in terms that I had "a serious problem in understanding logic") is not something you should be trying to misrepresent to the peanut gallery. I do not resile from a single word I made in those exchanges with you, which I did not write lightly. Bon courage (talk) 03:00, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Likely COI editor (User:Barton1234) repeatedly editing against consensus at Richard H. Ebright

• Barton1234 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Richard H. Ebright (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Version of the article with way too many citations and overly positive treatment of subject's accomplishments: 11:26, 29 September 2022

Talk page section where consensus about WP:OVERCITE was established: see here

Diffs of the user reverting against consensus:

1. 19:28, 8 November 2022
2. 20:17, 3 November 2022
3. 18:51, 3 November 2022

User WP:OWN reverting others' attempts to reduce WP:OVERCITE or otherwise helpfully improve article (while calling it "vandalism"):

1. 10:20, 26 April 2022
2. 09:44, 13 December 2021
3. 10:51, 6 July 2021
4. 12:03, 8 February 2021
5. 20:39, 25 August 2020
6. 16:41, 21 August 2020
7. 09:26, 4 May 2020

Unilaterally removing "excessive citations" template without discussing on talk, after removing just 2 cites from a page with dozens for each sentence:

1. 18:06, 9 August 2021
2. 18:05, 9 August 2021

Diff of myself and others warning the user about this behavior, warnings which were ignored:

1. 07:43, 4 November 2022 Follow WP:BRD. You are editing against consensus
2. 01:07, 9 November 2022 (EW template on user talk)

Diff of my and others' attempts to resolve dispute on article talk page, attempts which were ignored:

1. 00:35, 4 November 2022 @User:Animalparty attempting to resolve other dispute with user never responding
2. 11:51, 4 November 2022 Me: See above discussion regarding WP:OVERCITE. The consensus here is to remove these many multiple redundant citations. What specifically do you have issues with?

Attempts to ask the user about COI, to which the user has never responded (or on any talk page for that matter):

1. 23:05, 10 February 2021 @User:PaleoNeonate on user talk
2. 11:50, 4 November 2022 (me on article talk)

Diff of ANI notice posted to user's talk page:

1. 22:59, 9 November 2022

Comments:

This is a weird one. Basically, @User:Barton1234, who created this page, has added dozens and dozens of citations to it of this guy's every paper ever, basically turning it into a CV. Any attempt to bring the page in line with WP:OVERCITE (or improve the article sometimes in other ways) is met with a revert in the style of WP:OWN from this user simply saying "vandalism". They have rarely edited any other page, and typically only as it relates to Ebright, to add Ebright's papers to those other pages, or to basically make them say what Ebright's article says: [188] [189] [190]. Given obvious COI implications, myself and another user have tried to broach the COI topic, to which the user has never responded (indeed, has never responded to anything on any talk page), continuing instead to revert despite consensus on the talk page against their actions. I believe the user should be blocked as WP:NOTHERE and a blatant WP:COI connected editor, pushing a particular version/POV about the article which they treat as though they WP:OWN it.— Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 23:03, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Requesting for merge accounts.

Hello sysops.

This is a confirmation of lemonaka (talk · contribs) who made a request to user:Antandrus to create an account for editing on English Wikipedia. Due to current IP-block of my IP-range, I couldn't create an account here. Could any sysop help me create an account of that name and give me IPBE or just merge two accounts? Lemonaka1 (talk) 00:09, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Account mergers are impossible if both have edits, if I recall right. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 00:36, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

43256ds - possible AI-in-training?

• 43256ds (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've been watching the edits of this user for the better part of a week and something tells me this is someone trying to train an AI to edit Wikipedia, given their exclusively editing in their own mainspace (minus an excursion to Wikipedia: space) and their edits mostly being non-sequiturs or otherwise disjointed/disconnected. In any event, it doesn't seem like they're actually here to edit Wikipedia. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 00:33, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Looks more like meatware than software to me. In any event, fails WP:CIR. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 02:50, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

I have no idea what this is, but see also WaheedRathore. ST47 (talk) 03:00, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

If that is the case, then both accounts should be blocked as WP:SOCKs per WP:DUCK. 2601:647:5800:4D2:98E6:C606:B7CF:D59D (talk) 04:10, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Wandsword

• Wandsword (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Indian Institute of Science Education and Research, Pune (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Jayant B. Udgaonkar (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

User Wandsword's sole purpose of editing at Wikipedia is to add derogatory content about the two subject articles, claiming that criminal complaints have been filed against both the professor and the Institute. Wandsword has repeatedly sourced these claims to generic Indian websites (https://pgportal.gov.in and https://dpg.gov.in) without specific links to actual verifying documents. Wandsword has already been blocked once for edit warring over this matter. When pressed for better citations, the user produced a couple of documents uploaded to a Google drive account. Even if we could accept these as a reliable source (we can't), they show only that a complaint has been lodged. No citations have been produced (nor does the user's text even imply) that any investigation of the complaints has occurred nor any arrests made nor any other repercussions of the complaints. For all we know, this could be a case of a disgruntled student filing a nuisance complaint against a professor. User Wandsword has been warned repeatedly about the problem of adding such derogatory information (especially in the case of WP:BLP), but has not ceased to restore the material whenever it has been deleted. I request an administrator to intervene in this matter. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 00:41, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm thinking that an indefinite partial block from both those articles should be the starting point, and then escalate if Wandsword decides to try and evade it. Give him an opportunity to focus on unrelated articles first. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 00:51, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive editing, SYNTH and IDHT issues

• Simulaun (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• User failing to acknowledge/heed discussions and warnings about their editing, particularly WP:SYNTH, and refusal to engage other editors and gain WP:CONSENSUS for their changes.

Inspired by today's improper removal of content on the Melbourne article ([191], [192], [193]), I've decided to put up.

Since April 2022, Simulaun has been engaged in what can only be described as a narrow-focused campaign to either remove or muddy the waters re the Indigenous Australian names of cities in Australia, particularly Melbourne. I don't know their motivations, but it's pretty clear to anyone that they are removing content that they just don't like and replacing it with poorly sourced -- or outright synthesis of published material. Ironically, a section on Talk:Melbourne entitled "wikipedia:Activist attempts to rename Australian towns and cities" might offer a little bit of an explanation behind Simulaun's editing (seeing as they do not seem keen on expanding when challenged), particularly their comment: "The same cultural appropriation is taking place for the city of Perth, which is now being referred to by some groups as "Big Swamp" in Noongar language." (diff).

A current favourite of Simulaun's has been to add SYNTH material to Melbourne re its Indigenous name, ignoring the need for consensus. The user will replace an existing passage with a synthesis of a LonelyPlanet source and others, making the misleading claim that the source is speaking for Melbourne (it's not). The editor has been warned about this, as will be expanded upon later. Examples:

• Sept. 20 (reverted) – SYNTH, WP:COPYVIO, ignores consensus
• Sept. 26 (reverted) – SYNTH, COPYVIO, ignores consensus
• Oct. 15 (reverted) – SYNTH, unreliable source per WP:RSP, ignores consensus
• Oct. 17 (reverted) – SYNTH, ignores consensus
• Oct. 18 (reverted) – SYNTH, ignores consensus
• Nov. 2 (reverted) – SYNTH, ignores consensus
• Nov. 5 (reverted) – SYNTH, ignores consensus
• Nov. 9 (reverted) – SYNTH, ignores consensus
• Nov. 10 (reverted) – removal of sourced content

Simulaun, when challenged about their editing, has repeatedly chosen to outright ignore or defend their edits (and then proceed to do the exact same thing they've been accused of doing). Examples:

• Apr. 24: The Logical Positivist asked Simlaun to stop adding original research to the Rottnest Island article. No response. On the article's talk page, Mitch Ames had even previously asked Simulaun to stop adding factual errors/OR to article [194]. No response.
• Apr. 25: I cautioned Simulaun for removal of content on Melbourne and to gain consensus for their edits. No response.
• Jul. 7: Padgriffin warned Simulaun for adding original research to Sydney. Simulaun defended adding original research and has continued to add OR.
• Sept. 20: I asked Simulaun to provide diffs of where on Talk:Melbourne consensus exists for their content change as they incorrectly claimed. They did not provide those diffs as can be seen.
• Sept. 25: Poketama too, told Simulaun that their content changes to Melbourne contained SYNTH.
• Oct. 15: I cautioned Simulaun to stop adding original research to Melbourne, and gain consensus on talk page for their content changes. No response.
• Oct. 19: I warned Simulaun to stop adding original research to Melbourne, and gain consensus on talk page for their content changes. No response.
• Nov. 2: I gave a final warning to Simulaun to stop adding original research to Melbourne, and gain consensus on talk page for their content changes. No response. Since then, they've continuously added the same SYNTH bypassing the need for consensus here and here, having been reverted by Gracchus250 and Meters, respectively, citing the same issues in their edit summaries.

Judging from the frequency of their edits, I think they will just keep edit warring, not listening, bypassing the need for consensus, and of course, adding SYNTH to articles. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 01:49, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

This user's IDHT behavior has gone on for long enough. I would personally propose, at minimum, a TBAN from Australian-geography related articles for them, considering that they've persistently engaged in this type of behavior and seemingly refuse to follow WP:CON. I would support harsher sanctions but it's a start. Padgriffin ^{Griffin's Nest} 02:21, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

TCG and their one-account restriction

Mellk has noted that TheCurrencyGuy seems to be evading his block with an IP (which Cullen328 has blocked). I would like to note that there is concurrently a one-account restriction regarding TCG, as evidenced here:

Additionally, in light of the evidence presented at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TheCurrencyGuy, TheCurrencyGuy is indefinitely restricted to the use of a single account. Editors encountering suspected socks of TheCurrencyGuy are required to log their suspicions at the aforementioned SPI page for documentation in addition to reporting them at WP:ANI for breach of this editing restriction.

Therefore, I would like to formally note this breach of restriction here. Thank you. NotReallySoroka (talk) 04:54, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I blocked the obvious (self admitted) IP sock, but was not aware of a requirement to log. Cullen328 (talk) 06:27, 10 November 2022 (UTC)