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After I have a complaint about removal of RS sources from Wikipedia article to an admin (see here) including my intention to use wiki process to resolve the conflict he then began a process of removing sources from articles that I have created (see here), (see here), (see here), (See here), (see here)
There are genuinely differences of opinion about this source in Wikipedia. For example uninviolved neutral user was quoted when confronted with the RS sources of Tamilnet.
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Comment: Yes. While recognizing that the Sri Lankan-Tamil civil war is a longstanding and viciously contested dispute, I decline to take notice of pissing matches between the various factions as to which source is supposedly discredited by its alleged adherence to one side or another. Fox TV is commonly presumed to be a biased mouthpiece for right-wing ideologues, but I don't think you'd get very far claiming it doesn't qualify as a reliable source on that count. RGTraynor 17:02, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Then on Sri Lankan reconciliation project the following compromise was reached about the source see here
When such diverse opinion is out there about this source for admin to refuse to follow wiki process that has been suggested is uncalled for and will only lead to edit wars as I am sure more people will revert his edits. Some other uninvolved admin needs to get involved to resolve this issue. Thanks Taprobanus13:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry to say that includes you because although you claim what ever you are to be, your edits parralel edit with other very specific minded Indian editors shows that one does not have to be an Indian or Sri Lankan to be part of a partisan camp. Thanks Taprobanus14:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. So you tell us Taprobanus that there was a consensus reached here at the WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation. Well, has Blnguyen been invited to participate? Has he done it in case he was invited? If you say that you have reached a consensus about TamilNet being a qualified source (QS) than why aren't you using an explicit attribution (TamilNet reports that...)? Maybe Blnguyen was reverting on the grounds that it was used as a reliable source (RS)? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®16:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
He was not part of the decision, but not every wikipedian can be part of such decisions any way. As the reconciliation decision is not a formal wikipedia decision such as a result of mediation or arbitration. It is as binding as suggestion:)
Now if he agrees with the suggestion, (now that he knows about) he can edit using it. But If I am not mistaken he did remove Tamilnet from a statement which explicitly stated as pro-rebel (see here). That means he is not all amenable to any use of Tamilnet in Wikipedia. His point of view is just one point of view.See here for history of involvement in Sri Lanka related articles in the past.
User:RGTraynor another experienced non involved third party (that is not a Sri Lankan or Indian who has an axe to grind in this conflict including me and Blnguyen)said very clearly that he will accept Tamilnet as a RS source.[2] So we have diverse opinion here about this source.
Already Blnguyen edit patterns which went after many articles that I created has resulted in an edit war where there was non for a long time. These were stable articles including an AFD that went through with minimal content deletion including sources. That is a lot of neutral non involved third party editors looked at them and decided that they were written from a neutral point of view with reputable sources. So how do we solve this problem? when we have editors such as myself and Blnguyen who potentially have conflict of interest because of our backrounds who say have such opposite views about this source and yet others who are non involved say it is a RS source. (I will post here other explicit statements supporting this point from number of non involved third paties here) What is the next step ? Mediation and what is the final step ? Arbitration ? I am sick and tired of wikipedians indulging in vicious edit wars based on one source. If we decide it is not RS, then it is not RS. If we decide that it is RS then it canbe used. If we decide is QS then it QS. What ever it is I want more than a mere suggestion. Thanks Taprobanus17:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We can claim to be what ever we are in the internet. I suppose the French colonials were very fond of the game of Cricket in Vietnam:)) Seriously just like I am a Canadian, similarly you are Vietnamese but your edit patterns in parallel with other very specific minded Indian editors shows that you have very strong conflict of interest in Dravidian and Tamil related subject matters as was noted during many entanglements with now banned User:WikiRaja. So lets us not go there about ethnicities here and lets us stick to the discussion about Tamilnet. Thanks Taprobanus14:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WikiRaja was a two-bit troll, intent on promoting clouded ethocentric agenda, and racist myths. WikiRaja was an anti-Brahmin also intent in working to denigrate the contributions of Iyers to Tamil culture. Might I remind you that Sarathambal would not be off limits to his ire?Bakaman03:22, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just because you've used Tamilnet and other such patently partisan and non-RS on scores of articles doesnt mean they become reliable sources. These sites are avowed sympathisers of the militant outfits and in some cases just the 'media arm' of the militant outfits. They dont stand a remote chance of making it past WP:RS. Any dispassionate editor, editing in good faith wouldnt use these sources, especially since there is no dearth of bonafide reliable sources like BBC or the mainstream Indian media(print and internet) etc.,. This is not some conflict raging in some 'unexplored, unknown to the modern world' corner of the globe. It is happening in SriLanka, a member nation of the UN and the entire world is watching. So, there is absolutely no dearth of reliable sources(and non-partisan ones at that). Of course, if you adhered strictly to WP:RS, you may not be able to keep a score of every gunshot and every loss of limb as you're doing now, but it will leave wikipedia in better encyclopedic shape.
And what do you mean by - "...when we have editors such as myself and Blnguyen who potentially have conflict of interest because of our backrounds..."? Are you suggesting that you have a conflict of interest here? If that is the case, I'd request you to stop editing these articles. You really shouldnt be editing these articles in the best interests of the 'pedia. And as for insinuating that Blnguyen or 'Indian editors' have a COI going here, I'd suggest that you think twice before throwing around such accusations.
And please read WP:RS, WP:EL and related policies once before you infest the references and EL sections with links to google videos, random geocities, tripod sites, blogs, or a random site of some Tamil 'sangam' in some corner of the world etc.. apart from the staple tamilnet, tamilnation cruft. Thanks. Sarvagnya21:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just a simple question, will you stop editing Tamil related article because of your Bangalorean Tamil backround. Seriously, you have been noted by many editors many times in the ANI. So let us talk about Tamilnet then. Thanks—The preceding unsigned comment was added by notbakaman (talk • contribs).
Blnguyen is vietnamese. He is interested in India (india is one sixth of the worlds population, a lot of people are), and I fail to see a conflict of interest. As for tamilnet, it isnt neutral but not unreliable. The views on it are divided with some calling it LTTE and some calling it slightly biased. Tamilnet shouldn't be, however, the principal source for which notability is established. As for the fighting between editors, Taprobanus has been willing to discuss instead of reverting to trolling like 213.181.56.12 (talk·contribs) who we are led to believe is a Tamil in Iraq (via traceroute). As if the plight of Tamils is the most important worry in Iraq. Back to the subject, the analogy to FOX is interesting and demands some further discussion.Bakaman22:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have to give my 2¢ here. Partisan websites of any nature or background cannot be automatically classified at not reliable. As per Bakaman, it isn't neutral but not unreliable. I also agree w/ Bakaman in that no article should rely on one disputed source. One thing that i noticed and may not have appeared to you is that after classifying it as a qualified source, it has been inserted as a reliable source. As i said above, if it has to be used, than obviously wording should be like TamilNet reports that.... -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®00:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I get the feeling that Bakaman and Fayssal are confusing 'notability' and 'reliability'. 'Notability' is perhaps all that we can concede to Tamilnet and that is why we have a TamilNet on wikipedia. However, just being 'notable' doesnt make them 'RS'. That they have a rather lopsided militant view of the situation doesnt help either. Sarvagnya01:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The analogy to FOX is ridiculous. FOX is a professionally run media house owned by News corp., which is listed on various exchanges and subject to routine and professional audits by the best in the business. I am sure it is affiliated to any/all "official" press regulatory bodies that count. It has an editor with rather impeccable professional credentials who has the moral courage to attach his name to a story. If anybody feels that FOX has a slant(to right or left or whatever), then it is their POV. Tamilnet otoh hand is, for all we know run by some journalistic quack who takes his blogging rather seriously. Sorry. The FOX analogy just wont cut it. Try something else. Sarvagnya01:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your personal opinion or do you have serious citation for what are you saying. I have listed reserach papers others your comments are just WP:SOAP. Thanks Taprobanus14:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can i ask a simple question Sarvagnya? What if TamilNet announces and acknowledges a terrorist attack via their website? Would we use it as a primary reference? Would it be considered as a reliable source as well? IMHO, if you have reached a consensus in which TamilNet would be considered as a qualified source (everything but a reliable source) than why not all parties try to use the appropriate wording when using TN as a QS?
Whether TamilNet acknowledges something one way or the other is besides the point. Also, I was not part of any consensus where a patently non-RS source has been decorated with a "QS" tag. What is "QS" anyway? Are there similar precedents elsewhere on wikipedia? It is not upto any random Wikiproject to get together and hammer out a 'consensus' on matters like this. And I dont see where there has been any consensus regarding this and other similar sources. A quick look at some of the talk pages will tell you that editors have always been against these sources. I can only say that these sources have been used in bad faith. Sarvagnya02:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe admins can do something. It is a dispute regarding the reliability of a website. You have some few days to discuss it again before the article is unprotected. If not than obviously a RfC is just next door. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®02:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd prefer not using FOX either if it was at all possible, or LankaWeb, or Tamilnation or Tamilcanadian. This conflict is very famous, and each time there is an air strike or a suicide bombing, it is covered on BBC, CNN, AP, etc etc, so we can use those if necessary. If it is only noticed by a few small ethnocentric sources, then I would be skeptical. FOX is a proper news source although it is very biased, but I have not seen people say that they present false data and such. It does contain strong editorial bias and such, but when you use a source you should not import the bias from the newspaper and just say "described by .... as "the best" ". But in any case, if BBC or CNN have the same data, it's better to just use them instead. There are many times where a proper newspaper like Sydney Morning Herald and the tabloid Adelaide Advertiser say the same facts, in which case, I would just source the SMH since it would look better. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can the TamilNet refs be replaced by BBC/CNN ones? If yes than the problem is sorted out. I haven't checked if TamilNet references are unique (i.e. no one else covered it...) -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®04:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that a the WP:SLR community reached a vote to name many sources as "RS", "anti-rebel" , "Pro-rebel" and "UnRs". The problem is that most srilanka related articles do not follow thse branding of articles. If you take a good look at many other articles there are lots of "anti-rebel" sources being used as RS. So if the community is saying that we cannot use tamilnet then why is the same community keeping quite on the other side of the story-using anti rebel sources. Is there something thats missing ? Or has the community not seen these articles ? Anyway if we are going to allow the anti rebel sources then we MUST allow the pro rebel sources so that in the end we will have a neutral article. However, if one is taken out the other should also be taken out to again have a neutral article. Watchdogb12:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am also the same view after the WP:SLR community has reached a vote to name as "RS", "anti-rebel", "Pro-rebel" and "UnRs", still there are articles which have been sourced using anti-rebel sources as WP:RS. Those who are willing to remove Tamil-Centric souces using as WP:RS for the events purported by the State Terrorism in Sri Lanka in the Tamil areas where the International Press is in total isolation, are keeping silent to the usage of anti-rebel sources as WP:RS in various articles. Whether Blnguyen has failed to see those articles or he has biased view towards the persecution of the Tamil community in the Sri Lanka to be exposed to the world is not still clear. But his vesak wishes to his friends [3][4] who are adamantly against the view there is a State Terrorism in Sri Lanka, is giving some view of his biased nature and will only lead to a RFC against him subsequently.Lustead13:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Websites and publications of political parties, religious groups, anti-religious groups, or any other partisan group, may exhibit bias and should be treated with caution. Neither political affiliation nor religious belief stated in these sources are in themselves a reason not to use them, as these websites can be used to present the viewpoints of these groups, if properly attributed. Such sources should be presented alongside references from other sources in order to maintain a neutral point of view.
Tamilnet does not file false data, there are serious non Indian and Sri Lankan researchers such as from the United States and Australia who have studied this news site. For example for archived version of the research paper on this see this. Read it in full before making any comments. I can provide more such research papers. I am not arguing that Tamicanadian is a RS source, so let us not confuse the matter here. The discussion here is only about Tamilnet as I said I will take it all the way because I am sure we will prevail at the end when neutral uninvolved Wikipedians see the arguments on both sides not any one belonging to a cabal or faction with and axe to grind.
Tamilnet passes RS because
1. It has an editorial board
2. It has an editor
3. It reviews its news reports for accuracy
4. It is used as a primary source by notable media
organizations such as BBC and CNN (just to name a few) to report on information that is generally censored information in Sri Lanka.
To arbitrarily remove very important information that is particularly important for Sri Lanka conflicted is tantamount censoring information in Wikipedia. By claiming most information is covered by BBC and CNN.because it is not true at all.
For example in the Sarathambal rape and murder case, some one arbitrarily removed Tamilnet source which says that number of important dignitaries including number of majority Sinhalese attended her funeral. That information is not available in BBC or CNN. But that piece information humanizes the Sinhalese people that although it was a Sinhalese person who is suspected of raping and murdering this minority Tamil women other Sinhalese were equally upset about. That piece of information makes the article neutral other wise the article will be completely one sided. To remove Tamilnet from that article now makes it a non neutral one from a neutral stable article.
Then there was a claim that it was a blog ? There was a claim that it was a partisan website ? That it was a lobby group ? Now all this is personal opinion without any credible citations.
I think people simply jump to conclusions without doing serious research. Let us continue this discussion to its logical conclusion. Thanks Taprobanus13:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They weren't neutral anyway. Some of those articles were 80% TN sourced and the rest mostly HRW or AI. Yes, that tripod site is a random website. and the Socialist News is clearly self-declared as partisan. Just because something is a primary source doesn't mean it is reliable. A political journalist gets info from politicians and bureaucrats speaking anonymously. Does that mean that rumours spread by a politician's secretary become RS and can be taken as real statistics? And you are talking about people with an axe to grind when you know full well my ethnicity and the fact that you are an activist.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any source to back up the allegation that Tamilnet is not a reliable source? Partisan view can never be a parameter in deciding RS. For example, there are hundreds of articles in wikipedia which uses *karnataka* web sites which present kannad-centric views and obviously very partisan. Let's not get into the quality of these websites. Anyways, a simple search in google provided me with these sources.
A PHD thesis of Kasun Ubayasiri, Central Queensland University covers extensively Tamilnet. This is the conclusion that it derives.
"It can also be argued the Tamilnet success as internet based news service has been largely attributed to a unique position it has created as the only ‘independent’ provider of a reliable alternative view in the Sri Lankan theatre, one designed to counter the states rudimentary propaganda machine. Tamilnet has also adopted a reportage style closely resembling a wire service feed identified by western media practitioners as viable and reliable media. The prompt coverage of news both in the government controlled regions and those under the LTTE control has placed the a Tamilnet in the unique position of the being a news service with the widest coverage – a defining attribute in a media theatre dominated by Colombo and south centric media.Therefore it can be argued that Tamilnet’s strategy of providing pro-Eelamist news without any overt LTTE connections has yielded results and coupled with its reporting style and content, paved the way significantly wider coverage in both the internet and through international mainstream media, when compared with any other web based media Sri Lankan media product."[1]here is the link
Same goes for Tamilnation.org. A simple search in google shows that tamilnation website is used as references in conference papers and other research papers. Associate press & BBC uses these websites as reference too. Praveen15:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
May I point out that Kasun Ubayasiri is an Australian of Sri Lankan majority Sinhalese extraction which makes his point of view even more credible. His reaserch papers have appread in may scholarly jourmnals. Thanks 15:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
<deindent>I can't believe that any editor would even suggest that Taminet is a reliable source. Plain and simple, every single news organization that refers to a report from Tamilnet, Reuters[5], AP[6], Xinhua[7], AFP[8] etc etc all call Tamilnet a pro-LTTE website. So does even the BBC [9] ("Tamilnet, the pro-Tamil Tiger website"). The only reason reports from Tamilnet are quoted in international media is that Tamilnet is considered the official news website of the LTTE[10], just like reports by Baghdad Bob were widely quoted by international media.
To give a few examples, Tamilnet sometimes reports incidents before they actually "happened" [11]. Two weeks ago Tamilnet published a bogus news item containing material from an alleged "interview" with the Bishop of Jaffna, one of the highest ranking religious leaders in Sri Lanka. The Bishop later completely denied he even spoke to Tamilnet, saying "Hence I deny totally the report ascribed to me by the Tamil Net"[12].
I simply don't see any reason for this argument to continue. No one - apart from the LTTE and it's supports - consider Tamilnet a credible news agency. Regarding it as a RS for Wikipedia articles would be simply ridiculous, and there should be no two ways about that. --snowolfD4( talk / @ )16:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No one - apart from the LTTE and it's supports - consider Tamilnet a credible news agency Admins please take note ofthe above WP:ATTACK on wikipedia editors who are trying resolve this matter by amicable discussion. Thanks Taprobanus16:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just because these news sites call Tamilnet a pro rebel website does not mean that the website fail RS. Also I can remember many protests against BBC for giving one sided information on the LTTE. So if you want to look at it that way then I guess that BBC also a unreliable source. For example- BBC reported that they had credible evidence that shows that the LTTE was running the credit card fraud in UK. However, they failed to show the "Credible" evidence. Furthermore the UK police them self have said that they have NO evidence linking LTTE to these fraud. Does this mean the BBC is not to be used in the SL related articles ? Does that mean that BBC is not a RS ? This argument brings about 2 debates. 1) Since the BBC has made false news blaming LTTE then how can we take their word on Tamilnet being pro rebel. 2) Since BBC has done this sort of biased coverage they can be considred Biased against the LTTE. So does that mean that BBC should not be used as RS ? Also as I have said above other sources have been crammed into wikipedia which are considred Anti rebel. So if thats sites are allowed to be used then why not Tamilnet (playing the devil's advocate) even if its pro rebel ? - watchdogb
Also the story about Bishop of Jaffna is not exactly as Snowulf puts it. Their title was wrong but the story is right. A close associate of the bishop told Tamilnet these stories. Tamilnet went on to say that they made a mistake and that they will change the title. They even made a article on this.
Section break
I believe i've had heard enough arguments from both sides and at at least i can have my own judgment now. I see that TamilNet respects our policy on RS. These are my reasons:
TamilNet has been cited and used as a reference in both notable media outlets such as BBC, CNN and news agencies such as the notable Reuters. It has also been used in academic papers and still being used in government websites such as the Canadian immigration and refugee board website. (based on the links provided by participants above)
Saying a pro-X is biased and unreliable is just like saying that opponent pro-X is biased and unreliable. Defence.lk reporting on TamilNet having lied is not a totally unbiased reporting. They are both partisan websites. In our case here, we only have one partisan side having a say in wikipedia. It is against our core policy NPOV. The article should be balanced. You are talking about "state terrorism in Srilanka" but the main accuser is silenced. Please read the next point.
Websites and publications of political parties, religious groups, anti-religious groups, or any other partisan group, may exhibit bias and should be treated with caution. Neither political affiliation nor religious belief stated in these sources are in themselves a reason not to use them, as these websites can be used to present the viewpoints of these groups, if properly attributed. Such sources should be presented alongside references from other sources in order to maintain a neutral point of view. (source: RS/Examples).
The argument that says that TamilNet lied once is just not a perfect one. In the list of journalism scandals you'd find almost every universally notable media. Who doesn't remember the Sorry..We were hoaxed story about the fake abuse photos of prisoners in Iraq? Daily Mirror is still considered notable. Newspapers and media in general sometimes lie intentionally and sometimes unintentionally. You can't be sure about that.
I am a Moroccan and i use to edit Western Sahara related articles and i've never attempted to claim that the pro-Polisario (the Saharaoui separatist group)arso.org website is unreliable. We use it as a reference in many related articles. Is it biased? Have they lied? Yes, definetely but who and which is not? Many times and the lies have been mainly reported by foreign and NGO media. Has Moroccan newpapers lied? Yes, of course and in many occasions. THEY ALL LIE sometimes, if not all the time. Let me add this to you. Recently Morocco blocked access to YouTube. I was the one who first added the information to [Human rights in Morocco] article. Why it has been blocked? Well, one of the speculations is that Morocco didn't want some videos about abusing rights of some Saharawi students to be available for Moroccan public. Ummm!!!! Than which side is unreliable here? The state owned media or the partisan media who could publish videos of the abuses on YouTube? I am sorry but in this case i SHOULD consider YouTube as reliable and kick the garbage of the other side out of my scope.
I used also to work on the article about ETA, the Basque separatist group. Everyone knows about the group but only a few would know about Gara. Well, Gara in simple words is the loudly mouth of ETA. Gara newspaper has had the habitof publish/announcing terrorist attacks executed by ETA hours before they occur. It is not only considered biased but it considered to be part of ETA, and therefore a terrorist newspaper according to their opponents (mainly the Spanish gov't) though nothing is sure or otherwise it would have been shut down as they did w/ Egin. Still, we use it as a reliable source in Wikipedia as media outlets around the word do. Do we have any dispute tag on the ETA-related articles? No. Are they protected? No.
NPOV = Work for balance, that is: divide space describing the opposing viewpoints according to reputability of the sources. And, when available, give precedence to those sources that have been the most successful in presenting facts in an equally balanced manner. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®05:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Taprobanus used to contribute under "RaveenS". In his old sandbox, he declares himself to be RaveenS. In his self bio, it shows that he contributes to Tamil Canadian and some other Tamil websites. A google brings up things like this on TamilCanadian and TamilNation. I believe this constitutes a conflict of interest. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Cannot come with a comprehensive argument so go after the contributer, shows the caliber of argument. I have contributed to both sides of the conflict in Sri Lankan conflict. Tamilcanadian, Sangam.org for the pro-Tamil side and Asian Tribune and The Island newspaper for the pro Sri Lankan government side. Infact my biggest contributions have been to the Asian Tribune news website which is very much anti-LTTE news site. The editor himself is good friend of mine and was dissapointed because I stopped contributing after sI began to contribute to Wikipedia. So just because I have a minor history of contribution to both sides of the conflict (which has been ignored by User:Blnguyen in his arguments) I have a COI ? Although effort has been made to confuse what we are discussing, I need to point out that we are not talking about Tamilcanadian here. The argument is about Tamilnet. I am encouraged by the comments
Tamilnet.org got closed just as I was browsing through it. Perhaps some of their verifiable comments can be taken into account
by Nearly Headless Nick{C}. That shows when really neutral non involved editors take a look at this newssite, including editors of BBC, CNN and other major organizations, they decide to use it as it publishes verfiable information. Again we have come to a conclusion about Tamilnet in this ANI. Thanks Taprobanus23:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also considering that he's been pushing for these sources(Tamilcanadian, tamilnation etc) in scores of articles he's edited makes it an even more acute case of COI. Also in his message to me here, he admits to being emotionally invested in these articles. He claims that he hasnt let it seep into his editing and that nobody has ever complained, but a look at this discussion and the talk pages of several articles and editors suggests otherwise. Not to mention, he himself has admitted to 'COI' earlier in this very discussion. Sarvagnya10:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is because he has written a few articles doesn't make him to view, he has some Conflict of Interest over those on-line media until otherwise he is trying to use his own articles as WP:RS or have some Editorial Capacity in those media and bring them as WP:RS.Lustead14:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Raveen's exact words were
"Before his addiction to Wikipedia, he used to contribute to Asian Tribune.com, Sangam.org and Tamilnet.com among other e-magazines and Blogs, but since then he has stopped contributing."
Now we all know why some people are so insisting having racist crap sites like, tamil nation,tamil net,tamil canadian as WP:RS here. First I thought people are just kidding as even a small kid reading those crap sites would know its merely comical to have them here in Wikipedia. But I guess its not, for the contributors to those sites.Iwazaki 会話。討論03:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Iwazaki, i am afraid to disagree w/ your opinion. My reason is that when someone says racist crap, s/he should back h/is allegations w/ fatcs. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®23:01, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fayssal my good Moroccan friend,here in this case there are no evidence, that's the sad truth. Just go through those web-sites , then you would know how childish are those sites. How racists are those web-sites. And that's exactly why all the media which quote from those sites explicitly say tamil net is pro-LTTTE !! I am not sure how that makes tamil net a neutral source. And for user.raveen, we don not know whether he is contributing to those sites even now, but evidence shows that probability is quite high .And thats may be why, he wants to have those as valid sources here.Iwazaki 会話。討論01:43, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just can't be unfair to anyone. "No evidence is needed" is alarming. Please, just get some. If there are none, then there are none. If we are going to focus on bold text then i have this: denense.lk is pro-x gov't!!. Nick has just said that the website was censured while he was browsing. Who blocked the access to the site? I am a Moroccan and when i talked about my youtube story (including the censorship of my own gov't) i was rational. It just happened yesterday to Nick. Does the Srilankan gov't follow this thread? If yes, then i shall give them my satute. In wikipedia, we got BALANCE. Somewhere else? i just don't care. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®05:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fayssal ,I don't think you fathom what I said, or may be I should have been more coherent. There are tons of evidences to show they are pro-tamil pro-LTTE.. Check out every media,CNN BBC or whatever, they call these web-sites PRO-LTTE.. And why they call them like that? Because that's what they are, extremely pro-LTTE sites !! I was saying no-evidence to refer counter arguments against tamil net.Let me be clear this time, there are no evidence to prove tamil net(or other tamil something sites) are neutral. These are inherently bias sites, nothing else!And how do you know the site got censored by the GOSL ? A site can be temporarily closed for various reasons, I have no doubt that you also aware of this. There is actually no need to censor those sites as they have done enough harm by engaging extrme pro-LTTE stance.To keep a good balance in Wikipedia we need valid,good sources, not some pro-LTTE crap sites like tamil net.Iwazaki 会話。討論06:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
IF tamilnet is not considred as a NPOV site it does not matter. Why ? According to wikipedia rules you have to give the same weight to all sources. I have seen editors used Asian Trubune is anti rebel site in many article. They have also used South Asiah Terrorist portal is anti rebel. These sources do not even have an editorial board. I think those sites fail WP:RS badly yet they are here on wikipedia. Since these sources have allready been used in wikipedia then why not use Tamilnet ? Do you want to have POV articles ? Watchdogb13:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A cursory look at these websites acertains that they are advocacy websites of some kind. Tamilnet.org got closed just as I was browsing through it. Perhaps some of their verifiable comments can be taken into account, while giving due respect to WP:UNDUE; otherwise, most of them look like propoganda sheets. — Nearly Headless Nick{C}06:42, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So whats your thought about users using sites like SATP and Asian Tribune ? If Tamilnet fails RS then SATP and Asian Tribune would fail RS 2times as hard. So before talking nonsence go take a close look at the contribs you have made with those sites. Also its not propaganda sheet. Please do some real rescarch on tamilnet and if you would like go ahead and read the article thats allready here on wikipedia. Watchdogb12:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn’t see the following media as propaganda machinery as they are covering wide variety of news coverage,
As the civil conflict in Sri Lankak got worse during the last 1 year I have progressively requested Wikipedia admins to change my user name from RaveenS to Taprobanus for privacy reason. I also asked a Wikipedia admin to delete contents in the User page RaveenS that showd my full name because of privacy concerns. Both were done, to retrive these information must be misuse of admin authority? People in Sri Lanka or those who visit Sri Lanka are killed regularly for having an opinion that may be considred to be different than the government. This has been documented by Amnesty International, RSF and Human Rights Watch. User:Blnguyen beacuse of his conflict with me has now published information that may lead to my death because of my contribution to Wikipedia that may be offensive to the government of Sri lanka. I want wikipedia admins to take a good look at his behaviour based on this simple violation of privacy as well as putting the life of a fellow Wikipedian in danger.
Also as these sources indicate[13],[14] most of the Journalists in Sri Lanka contribute under duress when their views are different from who ever is in power. Many internationally known contributers such as Taraki, Mylvaganam Nimalrajan and Richard De Soyza have been murdered by government proxies. RSFsee here has documented countless other murders of anyone suspected of being a Journalist with a different point of view during the last 20 years of civil conflict. All this evidence put together and the flippant decision by an admin to out me, my personal information when I had done everything to remove such information from wikipedia has to be investigated. Thanks Taprobanus17:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any violation of privacy here. Blnguyen got the info from your subpage. If you want him to stop then you only have to delete that subpage. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®23:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am not a computer expert, this sub page used to be the starting point for my personal page which I requested to be deleted the comment was too much personal information. Then I blanked the sub page thinking the information is gone. So my intentions are very clear, to protect myself from privacy concenrs. Then I changed my name from RaveenS to Tapbrobanus again the comment was wanting to remove too much information associted with real name. All pointing a wikipedian wanting to be able to contribute without being associated with real name. The intentions are very clear. The admin in question because I requested to him to discuss with me via wiki process how we can resolve the difference of opinion he had with me regarding one source Tamilnet began a pattern of going after articles that I have created, it sort of stopped with the ANI finding. Now he is going after some pictures I uploaded and marking them with various violations (they are legitimate) but he is not informing me of all his findings in my talk page as the template requets. He has now shown to be fishing for personal information about me by going through my sandbox very many levels below where they are all indicating WP:STALK very least if not other violations. This is issue is not black and white as to whether the information was out there or not. There is some Grey involved as I am not a computer expert and I have made my intention to remain private known to Wikipedia as an instituition. This is potentially a life and death issue for me because my intentions were very clear as I changed my name and deleted my user page information that has been fished out by a Wikipedia Admin. Thanks Taprobanus23:52, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not mean to put your life in danger. I believed that since you posted a very detailed account of yourself with all your achievements etc, on your userpage, that you wanted people to know about your life accomplishments. I am not stalking you. The fact is that you only edit LTTE-Sinhalese related things, so it happens that the pages where you used TamilNet, also had copyright violations. I am adamant they are copyvios and a liability to WIkipedia to say the least. I did notify you on your talk page. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I posted a very detailed version of myself in my user page then I deleted it using an admin’s help. The sandbaox that I used create that user page, I blanked it number of times thinking it is gone. But you had to fish for that information at number of levels below where that Sanbox was to find information that I erroneously left behind. As an admin and a senior Wikipedia editor that is uncalled for just to make WP:POINT.
I am more than willing to accept for face value that you did not mean to put my life in danger although that's what you did with your actions. At minimum for this issue to go away you should apologize so we understand that you really understood what you have done. Otherwise this will follow the wiki process. When I came to your talk page to talk about Tamilnet, I said I believed 100% in the wiki process and I am more than willing to follow it through to rfa, but not even in my dreams did I think that instead of Tamilnet we will be talking about an rfa about your conduct. But this madness can stop with a simple apology.
Further don’t belittle my contributions as only related LTTE-Sinhalese stuff. Just like you are interested in English game of Cricket for a Vietnamese citizen, I am interested in Human Rights in Sri Lanka and the world at large, my user box says that. If WP:NOTABLE incidents happen in Sri Lanka whether the perpetrator is the government or the LTTE, I will write about it.
About the pictures you tagged, you tagged 5 pictures that I uploaded since this discussion began but only informed me about 1. Why ? Thanks Taprobanus15:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The reason for your user name change is obvious.. You wanted to cover all your contributions which you made to those racists pro-LTTE web sites. Because that would enable you to play an innocent role here in Wikipedia. But luckily Thanks to great Wikipedians we all know who you are and why you are here.We do not need to go far to see your anti-Government hypocrisies. They were clearly shown by you with your creation of dubious templates(which got deleted) and lots of other non-sense stuff esp you added to Sri Lankan related articles.You have before even collaborated with other users, exchanging pass words to push your anti-government pro-tamil agendas, even calling some of your friends not-pro tamil enough !! And here you are shamelessly trying to play the victims role by accusing probably one of the best Wikipedians we have now. I have told you many times not to tell stories, stories are for kids NOT for adult Wikipedians. And here you came up with another stories. I don't think anyone in the world take what you say seriously.. Death threats ?? You must be kidding here. Why dould anyone want to threaten a person like you ? I have never heard a person got threaten in SL just because he is pro-LTTE..Some members of TNA make comments supporting LTTE in the parliament ,and even call LTTE , we, but still live in peace among the Sinhalese with of course protection of GOSL . There are many tamils openly criticizing Sinhalese people,GOSL and live in peace in Colombo. And why should people take some one like you,who may have not probably visited my country for years,and live 1000 miles apart ?? The whole tirade made by yoou is simply disgusting.ESP because it comes from sone who has no idea about whats going on in Sri Lankan, probably find info by reading those racist tamil web-sites !! Anyway, finally we all know who you are and why you are here. And we even know why you have put your self to such a low position some time.Its all to defend your POV, your bias towards a certain section, your hatred of GOSL, and probably your hatred of the country call Sri Lanka. Iam sorry, I don't think people like you deserve to stay in Wikipedia. Iwazaki 会話。討論01:43, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is well documented fact that people journalists ,political workers and people from all of walks have been killed this includes Tamils,Sinhalese and everyone particurly after 1983 both in North and East and also in the south during the War against the JVP.It is sad fact that journalists are killed in Sri Lanka just for there views by all the sides in the conflict.Paramilitary backing the Sri LAnkan Army ,LTTE and no one is above it.If he wants maintain his privacy as most people do so in the internet it is fine.I do not think anyone can question it .Most chat rooms people avoid giving there real identity to strnagers as it is dangerous.Taprobanus may feel his life is at risk this is true .Not a single sinhalese government staff want to work in the North except the Army in the south Tamils do not want to go to certain parts.This is sad reality of Sri Lanka. Harlowraman02:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to note to iwazaki that he is just as unabashedly partisan as taprobanus. He is correct that many tamils live in sri lanka and enjoy comfortable lives in a sinhala majority. Another major point is that not all tamils support the LTTE, infact some for religious reasons are more apt to support the sinhala. A prime example is Subramaniam Swamy. This conflict sticks its branches into South Indian politics as well, its not just relegated to Sri Lanka.Bakaman02:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not 'South' Indian politics... may be just the Dravidian politics of Tamil Nadu. Which is understandable, given the extreme tamil ideological stance that these parties and the ltte share. But it has little to do with any religious ideology, least of all 'Hindutva'. Anyway, thats besides the point. The point here is that Taprobanus has a conflict of interest which not only his subpage, but also his comment on my talk page and his comment early on in this discussion prove. His alarmist pitch now is yet another bad faith mudslinging at one of the most respected and useful wikipedians we have. Anybody, half as concerned about their privacy as Taprobanus claims he is about his, wouldnt even put up their bio anywhere on the internet, let alone on a high traffic site like wikipedia. How very convenient of him now to claim that his life is in danger! All this lawyering for what patently are advocacy sites and propaganda tabloids is now starting to spill over into WP:POINT. Sarvagnya03:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Taprobanus' concern is correct. Many people who stand up against the GoSL have been killed when they step into Sri Lanka. While it is true that many tamil live happily beside sinhalese and other yet how many of these people speak against the GoSL ? Not many at all. The ones who do speak against the GoSl don't enjoy peaceful life. Now with the bashing aside. This is a serious issue. Taprobanus is really scared for his life. I bet the person who brought his real name up here has a hidden agenda. Every one knows he changed his name for a reason... Why breach his privacy? Most editors allready know who he is (sl related anyway). So I kindly ask the admin to take proper measures not only to hide Taprobanus' real identity but to make sure this type of act will not be followed by any users. Watchdogb13:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have already advice raveen not to tell stories and not to attack good/established Wikipedians. And regarding his bogus fear for life, Why would anyone even think of harming him ? When, from what I have seen here, he can be easily out-smarted and out-witted by anyone. The only reason he changed his profile was to cover his contribution to those racists tamil crap sites. Obviously he knew that was going to harm his future in Wikipedia and give him a black mark. After all who on earth take people who write to those crap pro-LTTE sites seriously ? And finally in case you haven't noticed,TNA MP's regularly praised LTTE and live in the comfort of the GOSL.Please at least read news ,if you are serious about contributing to SL'an related stuff here.Iwazaki 会話。討論14:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WOW IWAZAKI... TNA MP's Praise LTTE and live in peace ? Hmm what happend to Nadaraj (mind you in the tight security zone of SLA controlled area) ? Very comical comment by you. Plus your the one who constantly attack other wikipedians so I think its best to take your own advise. Your argument are pretts nonsence. What does his fear of life have to do with him being outsmarted ? Also how can you say he changed his profile to cover his contribution to those racists tamil crap sites. Who are you to say what he was thinking ? You got proof ? Why can't you take it as it is. He didn't want his real identity to be shown on wikipedia and as he has just shown he is scared for his life. Besides many people (such as yourself) don't even put their real name on wikipeida. Does that mean that you want to hide something from the racist Sinhala sites ? Does that mean that you don't want to have a black mark in wikipedia because you (might) contribute to Asian Tribune? I don't get your point.... So its ok for you to remain unknown but its not ok for someone else to be unknown ? Wonder why that is... It's not proper for a admin of wikipedia to violate someone's privacy. Its even worst when the admin does not take his real name off of the discussion even when the said user is scared for his life. Is this how wikipedia admins their admin ? Watchdogb15:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We are NOT interested in your content dispute. We cannot, personally, fix the dispute in Sri Lanka. Could you all take this somewhere else? Secretlondon15:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The revealing of a user's ID after that user pursued anonimity should be taken seriously. There seems to be a small group of editors who regularly show up here on AN/I on both sides of issues and problems here. Blnguyen and bakaman are both well aware of how to act here, and Blnguyen's comment, and actions, are highly inappropriate for a user of his experience. As for Iwazaki, such blatant bigotry for someone whose politics don't match yours do not belong on wikipedia. Your message essentially amounts to 'I hope they catch and kill you, because you're Pro-tamil and LTTE.' As an otherwise uninvolved editor, I'd definitely hope that if Iwazaki has any more such comments here, he receive a cool-off break. Blnguyen knew not to reveal it, too. He's not so dumb as to think that this user really meant to leave his ID behind, and almost certainly exploited the user's error to gain advantage in the content dispute. He ought to be blocked substantially, IMHO. ThuranX22:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please improve your reading comprehension skills. I have not said anything like that at all. All I said this was, this whole I am in danger drama was created to take attention away from the main issue. Credibility of some one who writes to tamilnet tamilnation or tamil something sites is in question here. His true desire to have web-sites for which he contribute, as Wp:RS, is in question here. I am not sure how these crocodile tears going to take the focus away from the real issues here.Iwazaki 会話。討論15:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Boy.. hold it. Its not like Raveen abandoned his former id or something. Even now, User:RaveenS redirects to User:Taprobanus. And there is no content dispute here which involves Blnguyen with Taprobanus. There are only two issues here - one is the usage of advocacy sites and propaganda sheets by Raveen as sources in dozens of articles which goes against WP:RS. The other is COI(to which Raveen himself confesses). And on both counts, Raveen is caught on the wrong foot. And just because he's been caught on the wrong foot, very funnily, he pulls out the ridiculous "my life is in danger" card out of nowhere and tries to mudsling at respected editors. If his alarmist pitch is really true, the commonsense thing to do would have been to WP:VANISH and probably come back after some time with a new account or something or just vanish from Wikipedia for good. But given that he hasnt done any such thing, I am forced to give more credence to Iwaziki's theory that he just wants to whitewash his true colours and act all innocent and naive on wikipedia. If anything, it is Taprobanus who should be 'blocked substantially'(in your words) for circumventing wikipedia and disrupting. Sarvagnya01:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To make my stance clear to everyone at the outset: I'm Indian, but largely apolitical, and have no strong views regarding the LTTE situation. However, I believe it is unfair to accuse Blnguyen of inappropriate behaviour. He has given many proofs throughout his time here that he is completely trustworthy and respectful of others' privacy. I do not believe Taprobanus is overreacting - I will not be so cavalier as to brush off someone's fear for their life, nor call them an alarmist - but I believe he needs to take a giant step back and think about whether contributing here under an identifiable username is a good idea at all. I respectfully recommend that he read WP:VANISH and consider whether editing about a subject which is obviously very close to his heart is going to end up with the result we all want: a neutral, verifiable encyclopedia.
User:ThuranX correctly said - "The revealing of a user's ID after that user pursued anonimity should be taken seriously". It is something like revealing the penname of a reporter who is handling the issues of State Terrorism / Terrorism or an officer’s identity who was dealing with French Connection. Though the comments of User:Riana are neutral, other than her comment about User:Blnguyen at this incident - "However, I believe it is unfair to accuse User:Blnguyen of inappropriate behaviour. He has given many proofs throughout his time here that he is completely trustworthy and respectful of others' privacy". I don’t believe the open testimoney of some Indian or Pakistani wikipedians, declaring themselves as neutral on Kashmir issue and then commenting on. The same will applicable to the issues related to wikipedians as well. The Vesak wishes of User:Blnguyen to User:Iwazaki of This and User:Snowolfd4This and then revealing the ID of User:Taprobanus who is differing the views who those received his Vesak wishes and then the actions of User:Blnguyen going after some pictures which have been uploaded by User:Taprobanus and marking them with various violations (when they are considered as legitimate according to the User) without informing him, are highly inappropriate for a user of his experience and making others to suspect whether he is over-estimated his Admin. powers and misusing it or in a state of mental-imbalance. Lustead07:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have not used my admin powers. I am not mentally ill. I gave Vesak wishes to whoever I had come across on-wiki and who declared themselves to be Buddhist. You and your friends are not declared Buddhists, so I didn't send them to you. I gave out many of the Vesak greetings on May 31. If you are saying that Indians and Pakistanis are not to be trusted on Kashmir, then why are you here if you are a member of the "involved ethnicities"? The fact is that I saw the copyright pictures on the pages with the TamilNet website and they were clearly not acceptable. Nothing more nothing less. If those pictures are acceptable, which they are not, then they will stay. As they are, they don't pass WP:FUC #8. I would not have revealed Taprobanus' were it not for the fact that he still preserved it in his possession at the time. The fact that you guys only edit one very small focused topic with dubious website s and not academic textbooks says more about why you are here.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that you guys only edit one very small focused topic with dubious website s and not academic textbooks says more about why you are here What you mean, you guys ? and what reason do to assign to these guys. Assume good faith per WP:AGF and dont no personal attack of fellow wikipedians. I think you may be loosing your cool ever since I posted a simple statement in your talk page that I am more than willing to discuss per wiki process with you as to how to resolve a vexing problem about a source called Tamilnet. Now that source issue is resolved at the ANI level all what you had to do is move on to cricket or what ever you like rather than linger on and make all of us South Asians centric editors look like petty quarrelsome lot unable to accept the wiki process for what it is. Without following the wiki process, we will have chaos and edit warring like what you precipitated in number of articles that only stopped after the ANI findings by a neutral admin then you started it allover again by removing Tamilnet yet again showing a loack of respect for wiki process. I have a job to do, family to take care of and number of notable raped and murdered women, massacres and involuntary disappearances to write about in Wikipedia when I have time. So let us all move on. Thanks Taprobanus15:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You have the freedom to wish anyone you want in wikipedia or elsewhere by sending Vesak, Christmas, Diwali and Ramadan wishes. But the coincidence of your wishes and your controversial edits alarmed other wikipedians.
I should add one more ethnicty, the Chinese also on Kashmir issue, I don’t trust anyone other than Kashmiri wikipedians whether they are Buddists, Hindus, Muslims or Sikhs and any neutral wikipedians. Kashmir or Tibet can’t be a center for regional powers to show their supremacy at the expense of natives of those regions.
Coming to the point, you are saying - "TamilNet website and they were clearly not acceptable. Nothing more nothing less". But another well reputed wikipedian User:FayssalF, a Moroccan nationality, he qualifies more than you to WP:NPOV is concerned, differing from your view point by accepting TamilNet is meeting the WP:RS. I excerpted here some of his views[15]–"I see that TamilNet respects our policy on RS. These are my reasons: TamilNet has been cited and used as a reference in both notable media outlets such as BBC, CNN and news agencies such as the notable Reuters. It has also been used in academic papers and still being used in government websites such as the Canadian immigration and refugee board website. (based on the links provided by participants above)". So his answer will clear your doubt which you posed – "The fact that you guys only edit one very small focused topic with dubious websites and not academic textbooks says more about why you are here". Lustead13:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Riana, tamilnation.org is run by the guy who served as lawyer for one of the terrorist leaders. On the site, he says that he 'bows his head humbly' to these 'leaders'. In his view, SriLanka is perpetrating a genocide which curiously none of the mainstream press like BBC or the Indian media etc., have reported. In other words, these sites are foisting hoaxes and only a bad faith editor with a COI would be using those sites as sources on wikipedia. Also, tell me what are the credentials of these sites and the people who run it? Are they affiliated to any offical press bodies in any country, for that matter? For many of these sites, we dont even know who's running it. Who the editor is, who the reporters are. In short a benami site. No checks. No balances. Pretty much free to write what they want.
For purposes of Wikipedia, how are these sites different from driveling blogs all over the net? Like I've already argued above, the parallels with FOX etc., is invalid. Even if the likes of FOX or timesofindia or The Hindu or CNN etc., are biased, we have WP:NPOV which takes care of it. But you cant use non-RS sources and argue that you are bringing NPOV to wikipedia. NPOV has to be established only from RS sources. And as far as the affairs of Tamil goes, it is not as if there is a paucity of RS sources. There are more than enough RS sources. There is even a BBC Tamil version. The Indian press covers it widely. Where is the need to even use these propaganda sheets, except to push POV? Sarvagnya07:15, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are absolutely WRONG. Take a good look dude. Our issue here is about tamilnet and not tamilnation.org. So get your facts stright. No, BBC has many times shown bias against the LTTE. So again I ask does this mean that we should not use BBC ? Ofcourse we use BBC. Also last time I check any of the SL articles they are allready filled with POV sources from the GoSL friendly websites. So may I ask Sarvagnya why you would stick with those sources ? Watchdogb13:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here we go. User:Sarvagnya is bringing his crap arguments once again. He has written the same non-sense in the portions above and received a verdict from a neutral editor contrary to his stand (That Tamilnet is a RS). Now his bad faith attempts to accuse Tamilnet as an equivalent to blog (once again) shows his difficulty to understand simple English. I suggest neutral editors/admins to please read the arguments & evidence given in above portion which clearly demonstrates Tamilnet's reliability. Thanks Praveen13:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of calling other peoples comments, craps, could you please go through what he has said here and point out what is crappy about it? And I prefer simple English, too..Thank you
There is no privacy violation here. If anything all the details revealed are highly necessary to carry out this debate. It is now pretty obvious why some elements wanted to have crap bias tamil something sites as WP:RS. How can we take someone as a neutral editor, when it is obviously clear that he contribute to pro-tamil pro-LTTE sites ? Iwazaki 会話。討論15:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is because, he has contributed to pro-tamil, pro-LTTE and also anti-rebel (according to his statement) sites, doesn't make any sense in wikipedia where each other is known by their User names and a few other details. If you don't mind, why you a few pro-Sri Lankan Government/Singhala - Centric Wikipedians can't be from the Sri Lankan Foreign / Defense Ministries or from the Military. Lustead07:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Moving on
On the top of this page, it says: "This page is not part of our Dispute Resolution process." I believe this page gets cluttered too easily, and this section is a case in point - it has grown far beyond proportion.
I think we can boil it down to two issues:
Reliability of Sri-Lanka related sources
Privacy violation
I propose we discuss the Reliability of Sri-Lanka related sources on WT:RS. As for the privacy violation, naturally it is not a good idea to discuss this publicly. Since I have experience as a mediator and since I am very sad to see two good and respected contributors locked in this sort of conflict, I offer to do informal mediation. I will contact both parties and see what comes from that. — Sebastian17:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I am amazed that such politically motivated web sites are being used to provide
data and citations to wikipedia. A casual read (need to dig in a bit) on "Tamilnation.org" clearly shows how anti-Kannada and Kannadiga it is. On top of all this we now have COI !! I have seen a growing need on the part of some people to use this media source (wikipedia) for political gains, ethnocentric attitudes and blind exclusiveism. This needs to be weeded out before wikipedia no longer remains an encyclopedia. This link is just one among many political propaganda material on Taminnation.org.[16]. One look at Tamilnet.com makes it clear what the main intention here is-Eelam. Dineshkannambadi 11:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Support -->blacklisting these two sites "Tamilnation.org" and "Tamilnet.com".Dineshkannambadi12:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, right.... You keep using a Kannad-centric 'history' book by Kamat (Who is a Kannad) and scores of *kannad* websites as 'references' as if there are no neutral history books and now here you are arguing about the quality of Tamilnation etc... Do you have any proof for your allegation that Tamilnation is anti-kannad or is it one more of home-cooked theory by Kamat et al?
Good luck trying to make a case that Kamat and Kamath are not RS. A certain troll did try in the past but ended up like this, this and this. Hoping for some similar entertainment from you too. Thanks. Sarvagnya16:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment First of all, there's no point arguing over whether Taprobanus has a COI or not. Even if he does, that alone is not a reason to tell him not to edit Tamil articles. What matters is whether those articles have a NPOV tone and have reliable citations. I believe the NPOV issue will get taken care of eventually since there's so much interest on these articles. The reliable source part is what needs to be scrutinized and if you scroll up a bit, you will see that it has. Since the neutral admin above has given an unambiguous verdict on the reliability of tamilnet.com, I don't see what the fuss is about. If there are other websites that people are concerned about, they should bring up the issue here, with their reasoning of why the said sites are unreliable. Remember, a source can be partisan and still be reliable. this is an unsigned comment. not nishkid's
Support --> Keep the websites tamilnation.org and tamilcanadian.org as RS. -- this is an unsigned comment. not nishkid's
Comment I have been a reader of Tamilnet for quite a while. I've always had an interest in the actions of Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam in Sri Lanka. Anyway, now that you know my background, I wish to give my whole take on Tamilnet being a reliable source. Personally, I don't think if neutral reputable sources such as Reuters and Associated Press label Tamilnet as "pro-LTTE", then the site should not be used as a reliable source. Given that the website itself is called Tamilnet, and only reports on news regarding Tamil people and LTTE, I think there will sometimes be a COI in the news material the website publishes (which can be seen in some of the material the news website publishes). With a COI and a reputation of being a pro-LTTE news website, I would disapprove of Tamilnet being kept as a reliable source in these articles. Neutral sources that are not biased should be best used in these type of situations. I think the fact that there has been so much discussion about this speaks for itself. Not everyone agrees that the website is a reliable source, and given its controversial nature, we should avoid using it as a source. Nishkid64 (talk)20:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't understand the logic of your initial support and then speaking of the controversial nature and telling to avoid the sources. After all you are an Indian Sub-Conntinnent wikipedian and what you should do in these type of situations is to leave other wikipedians to speak of, who are less interest in the region based on their previous edits in wikipedia. Lustead06:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am not an Indian sub-continent Wikipedian. I live in the United States. I also rarely edit India-related articles (actually, the only one I really edited was Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale). Given that I have no history of participation with Tamil-related articles or India-related articles for the most part, then I don't see why my opinion is not valued. Nishkid64 (talk)17:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are biased because you are openly declaring your Indian nationality, we here need opinion from wikipedians, they are nothing to do with Indian Sub-Continnent in their identification or by their edits. Further, we are here in the process of making a neutral on-line encyclopedia, so when the ant-rebel sources are widely used as WP:RS, there should be Tamil-Centic sources as well.Lustead07:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, the intention of those who want to use these sites when BBC and Reuters and Hindu and Times of India and CNN are covering this conflict is apparent. Sarvagnya21:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First off you need to stop accusing people of things. Now I am not denying that BBC and other news are covering the conflict. However, tamilnet has day to day access to all the places in the North and the Northwest that BBC and all the other sites do not have. Tamilnet reports the death of ever single person killed and dumped somewhere. Tamilnet has all the access to the LTTE controlled areas such that they can give very quick news about everthing. For example on the latest clash between LTTE and SLA Tamilnet was the first to report the insident. Tamilnet also released photos of the equipment recovred by the LTTE (they did the same when SLA took over Vaharai). Also NISHKID I would like to ask you to point out to me which part of WP:RS Tamilnet fails. Aside from the fact that some people do not think its not RS.Watchdogb00:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
At WP:RS, it says "The relevant policies on sources are Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, and Wikipedia:Neutral point-of-view." I do not think Tamilnet provides a neutral view, which in this case, would fail RS. Also, the policy says, "their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." Nishkid64 (talk)00:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tamilnet reports the death of ever single person killed and dumped somewhere. - And that is not of much use to wikipedia. Wikipedia doesnt 'report' every death and every gunshot fired. It deals only with the notable ones. The rest, sadly, will just have to be statistics. And to establish 'notability' we use reliable sources. Not non-RS partisan sources.
Tamilnet has all the access to the LTTE controlled areas such that they can give very quick news about everthing. - and we dont care about 'quick' news. We can wait till BBC or CNN or somebody like that report it. And if it is worth reporting, they'll sure as hell report it. Sarvagnya01:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tamilnet and Tamilnataion are blatantly partisan sites and definitely fail to meet Wikipedia's Reliable source guidelines. There are so many other reliable sources (Hindu, BBC, etc) which offer a neutral view on this conflict. As Dinesh puts it, one look at the this page [17] proves the whole point. This site seems paranoid about all ethnicities, who are not Tamil. Such fringe sites have been repeatedly used by Trolls (who have now been blocked) to prove their point ( [18] ), when there are other noteworthy and reliable sites, which say otherwise ([[19]). -- Naveen(talk)02:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are a wikipedian from Indian Sub Continnent and especially with interests in Karnataka like User:Sarvagnya. So your comment is biased. Your examples are mostly on Tamilnation.org and the issue is based on Rajkumar. Rajkumar is a personality whom everyone in India want to relate with their ethnicity. If Tamilnation.org is trying to relate his mother tongue with Tamil, do you think the Tamilnation.org is paranoid. Every Kannada ethnicity could be proud of their son of the soil - Rajkumar, than other way around.Lustead06:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
These websites are ethnic lobby groups and do not pass RS; furthermore they have a declared mission of criticizing and exposing the Sri Lankan government [20] , [21]. Wikpedia is not the place for that. Wikipedia maintains nuetrality and lobbying needs to done elsewhere. --Dakota08:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You have failed to take into consideration the Tamilnet that is the major part of thisWP:RS issue we are discussing here. I am in the line of wikipedian User:FayssalF, a Moroccan nationality, he accepts TamilNet is meeting the WP:RS. I excerpted here some of his views[22]–"I see that TamilNet respects our policy on RS. These are my reasons: TamilNet has been cited and used as a reference in both notable media outlets such as BBC, CNN and news agencies such as the notable Reuters. It has also been used in academic papers and still being used in government websites such as the Canadian immigration and refugee board website. (based on the links provided by participants above)". To support further the view of User:FayssalF that Tamilnet could be taken as a WP:RS, I added an example how Tamilnet has given importance to the Sri Lankan President's interview at Al Jazeera television here, where he heavily slammed the LTTE.Lustead16:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
User M.V.E.i. has been repeatedly accusing me of vandalism, inserting false information and "talking lies". I have asked him to provide evidence (up to a point where I linked my contributions and article history for him) or stop that. Yet that has had no effect, either he ignores my request completely or insists "it is all there". Accusing someone of vandalism is perhaps strongest and harshest thing to say to another Wikipedian - yet I did not want to "bite a newbie" (his first edits are from April 20th) and just warned him repeatedly. However, now that is grown to a point where I believe that his actions can be called stalking.
Instances when has accused me of vandalism, trolling and/or lies:
He has been repeatedly asked to behave civilly, not only by other users but by administrators as well ([33], [34], [35], [36]). That has had no effect whatsoever.
He has been repeatedly insulting not only me ([37], [38]), but also other users, such as administrator Sandstein (who has been beyond patient with him): [39], [40], [41], [42], [43], [44], [45]).
I am unsure what to do about him. Temporary blocks have no effect, he feels that he is fully just in his edits. Apparently he even doesn't realize that he is insulting other nationalities or editors. DLX06:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You could AT LEAST learn the case, i can find you a few that belive that DLX should be blocked for vandalizing articles and starting Edit-Wars. I gave hin exemples of lies he said and he couldn't denie them. M.V.E.i.
Hi, Neil and other admins. I don’t think 24 minutes is enough to make such a drastic decision. Thus, I’d like to clarify some points here. First, DLX is from a group of Estonian nationalist editors, who try to clean up corresponding articles so that the Estonian History would look “ok” [78]. They presumably collude and take active part in frequent edit wars: (only some) instances of such actions can be found in their recent checkuser cases [79] and [80]. (Wars with dropping relevant materials from articles, for instance, [81], is definitely “vandalism”. So I see no problem with this term used by M.V.E.i.). Selected additional evidence of their misbehavior is presented on a special page [82], where some more facts about DLX are also included. (I think enough evidence to block those editors, and DLX in particular, for long or forever will be collected sooner or later. But this is another story.)
Another side of their strategy is to talk an opponent to death or to provoke him somehow (see example [83]) so that he becomes angered and then impolite. And M.V.E.i. case is typical in this respect. Look at the talk page of this new editor. I found 17 lenthy messages from Baltic users, though M.V.E.i. didn’t want the discussion. What was the question of this discussion? DLX stressed many times here and there that “none of Jews were killed by Estonian SS legioners” (e.g., [84]). That was definitely incorrect claim. Even the Estonian official source [85] admits that “the Estonian Legion and a number of Estonian police battalions were actively involved in the rounding up and shooting of Jews in at least one town in Belarus (Novogrudok); in guard duties in at least four towns in Poland (Lodz, Przemysl, Rzeszow, and Tarnopol); in guard duties at a number of camps in Estonia and elsewhere”. I believe such a claim by DLX is nothing else but a kind of Holocaust denialism (thus, “liar” was, yes, harsh, but actually correct name). What thing could anger Israeli citizen, M.V.E.i., more than Holocast denialism? In this context, his claim that DLX is a pro-Nazi is at least understandable, though not fully justifiable.
Finally, I took a deeper look at the DLX accusations (skipping their personal clash [86], etc.). As to cases where “He has been repeatedly asked to behave civilly, not only by other users but by administrators as well”(DLX), [87] and [88], they were successfully resolved without external intervention. Concerning “Deleting material/references from Wikipedia”(DLX): accusations [89], [90] and [91] are taken out of context and thus baseless. Also, I don’t think there are “Racist and ethnic slurs”(DLX) in [92], [93] (this case was quoted twice by DLX), [94], [95], [96], [97].
To summarize, I believe that M.V.E.i. doesn’t deserve such a strong punishment. I’d like to add also that, in a very short period, he created and did constructive contributions to several good articles. I ask admins to shorten his block.
You might want to review WP:BLOCK. Most importantly, blocking is not a punitive measure; it's a preventive measure. It's not that M.V.E.i. is being punished for being obnoxious; it is that he has shown consistent unability to help with the Project, and thus, he is being prevented from harming it. Digwuren14:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Than why don't you block DLX for harming the project? Me harming the project?? I for a shurt time created a few articles, added unformation to others. THAT's cheap demagogy! M.V.E.i.
As Beatle Fab Four asks people all ower Wikipedia to comment on this, I would like to express my opinion as well. From what I have seen, I fully endorse the block. Colchicum14:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. Here we go again. I asked Neil to check my edit history for vandalism here. And I ask anyone else interested to do that - and if I have vandalized articles, then give me appropriate warnings or blocks. Oh, and by the way, BFF, for [98], read at least a lead from an article about Lord Voldemort and try to understand what I said... DLX15:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)You may want to re-read that and your sources. We were talking about murder of Estonian Jews by Nazis. SS-Legion was created after Estonia was declared judenfrei. But this discussion has been going round and round enough - and this is not the place for it. Discuss it on my user talk page, if you want - user pages are available for anyone, as long as they remain civil. DLX17:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Neil, Colchium and almost everybody else that M.V.E.i.'s behavior deserves a longish block for incivility. On the other hand we usually use escalating blocks then we deal with incivility and personal attacks. Before this block M.V.E.i had received two blocks for 31 and 48 h, both related to his conflict with Estonian users over the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn article. I have looked into the history of M.V.E.i contributions and can not say that Estonia is his main field of interest. He mostly is interested in music from Rachmaninoff to some obscure "progressive rock" groups. Cannot see any civility-related problems there. I suggest changing the block durations to two weeks-one month. For once it is the natural progression of the escalating blocks. Secondly, the conflict over the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn that seems to be settling both in real life and in Wikipedia would be much settled to the end of the block and would not disturb M.V.E.i Alex Bakharev22:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am unsure about this. In his messages after the block, M.V.E.i. has shown no remorse or understood why he was blocked - so, very likely he will continue the same behavior after he is unblocked. He does not realize that his actions are racist (perhaps good example would be edit summary here,1. It's a known fact that Russian Protestans are Baptists, the Lutherans in Russian are Germans and Balts. 2. Dont put two groups in the same sentence.) or that he is insulting other editors.
Perhaps reduction of the block to one month would be appropriate, if he is not allowed to edit any articles (or resp. talk pages) related to Estonia, Russia, Ukraine or other nationalities/ethnic groups - and an administrator reviews his edits on daily basis. And, to make sure he understands that next racist slur or personal attack will result an indefinite block - and that following Wikipedia rules is not optional. DLX05:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure the information of the edit is true but I fail to see what is racist about it. One month block looks appropriate. Proposed article ban may require an Arbcom decision to implement Alex Bakharev07:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That he expresses his disgust at mention of Russians together with Germans and "Balts" in same sentence? DLX07:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
DLX YOU ARE A LIAR. I know i'm blocked, but i couldn't take the lying anymore!!! When i have said in the Russians article don't put them in the saim group, i meet Old Belivers and Protestants. Because those are different groups. Its like writing:70% of Russians are Orthodox and Deists. There should be seperation. About the Baptists, i said that we should mention Baptizm because there are no Russiuan Lutherans, the Lutherans in Russia are Balts. M.V.E.i.
NOW EVERYONE HAVE SEEN IT. DLX is trying to provocate me by saying lies. The case was about the Template Box for Russians, i wanted to mension about the Russian protestants that they are Baptists, so this argument was so we would mention it. The two froups i wanted to seprrate are Baptists and Old Belivers. Instead of There are some Russians who are protestants and Old Belivers, i wrote Some Russians are Old Believers (a relatively small group of Orthodox Christians). Small minority of Russians are Protestants. My grand-grandgather was Baptists Russian peasant (thought he was born Orthodox). SO DLX, stop lying just to do me harm. M.V.E.i.
Looks like his, M.V.E.i., claim is a true fact. Anyway, he opposes Russians to other nations you know why? Look at the name of the article. "Russians"? Surprise, surprise! DLX is again wrong. Beatle Fab Four11:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah... showing your true colors finally here as well. Seems that you missed his edit summary again, though. And, it really doesn't matter. We have more then 25 cases of racism above - and I did not go through all his edits, far from it. And article name Russians does not imply that it is forbidden to mention other nationalities - or that it is OK to be a racist, for that matter. DLX13:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
DLX YOU ARE A LIAR. I know i'm blocked, but i couldn't take the lying anymore!!! When i have said in the Russians article don't put them in the saim group, i meet Old Belivers and Protestants. Because those are different groups. Its like writing:70% of Russians are Orthodox and Deists. There should be seperation. About the Baptists, i said that we should mention Baptizm because there are no Russiuan Lutherans, the Lutherans in Russia are Balts. M.V.E.i.
NOW EVERYONE HAVE SEEN IT. DLX is trying to provocate me by saying lies. The case was about the Template Box for Russians, i wanted to mension about the Russian protestants that they are Baptists, so this argument was so we would mention it. The two froups i wanted to seprrate are Baptists and Old Belivers. Instead of There are some Russians who are protestants and Old Belivers, i wrote Some Russians are Old Believers (a relatively small group of Orthodox Christians). Small minority of Russians are Protestants. My grand-grandgather was Baptists Russian peasant (thought he was born Orthodox). SO DLX, stop lying just to do me harm. M.V.E.i.
Nice coallition against me. NEVERTHELESS, a user wrote that there are two million Russians in the USA, which is not correct, because those are Jews from Russia while the article is about Ethnic Russians, so i returned the previous version. I think that for Wikipedia it is importent to have correct information isn't it? I belive it is so. M.V.E.i.
You don't even no the case so why are you playing the cowboy here?? At least learn the case. M.V.E.i.
Following the discussion I decided to shorten the block to 1 month. I was originally thinking about two-three weeks, but the lates block avoidance make 1 month to be most suitable Alex Bakharev01:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so I guess I'll mark my calendar for July 7, when this discussion will be occurring once again. There is a human being behind this user name; it's not just a "Wikipedian". If this person decides within the next thirty days that he's going to alter his abrasive disposition just so he can be allowed to edit a website, that would be a first. You are free to think that's going to happen, but I'm going to go clear my schedule for July 7. -- tariqabjotu02:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Given that you did not bother to discuss it with me, Alex, do you even know whyUser:M.V.E.i. was indefinitely blocked? It was not for incivility, it was for edits describing certain races as "not really human, anyway" and other races as "all Nazis". Hate speech cannot be permitted. I have restored his block to indefinite. Neil╦09:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Neil, the block has been discussed here and I assumed you have been a party of the discussion. I have looked through all the presented diffs and while I found a lot of incivility and inflammatory rhetoric from M.V.E.i I failed to find description of certain races as "not really human, anyway". The closest I could find was the statement that World War II Nazis were not human. While this is a strong statement it is only a hateful speech against the Nazis of the World War II time (and not e.g. far right members of some government coalitions). I would dare say that this is within the line and certainly not racist. Usually, mentioning Nazis stops any productive discussion but the subject of the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn somehow provoked that sort of talks. Initially I was trying to abort the discussion of WW2 rather than the article but both N.V.I.e/BFF and Diwulgen/DLX were so eager to talk on the offtopic subjects that it was impossible to stop. I might missed some stupidity from M.V.E.i but I have strong doubts that he meant something racist in his speech. Alex Bakharev13:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"I have strong doubts that he meant something racist in his speech". What?! Alex, I can only assume you have not read the long list of diffs above, or the ones I provided on your talk page. Neil╦14:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With reference to this recent edit by the above user (Captain scarlet (talk·contribs)) where they say that "This user's contributions now solely consist on removing as many Microformats as posible to maintain quality on Wikipedia." Could this be considered an attempt to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point? They have made their dislike for Microformats clear yet fail to justify the reasons for removing it on a large number of occasions as can be seen by looking at Special:Contributions/Captain_scarlet. Comments from this editor on this issue tend to be similar to this where they plainly dismiss the addition of microformats with other editors without considering the possible benefits of the change on the appearance of pages for our readers. It is clear that the user and the main editor behind microformats, User:Pigsonthewing have had numerous disagreements in the past and I feel that Captain scarlet's dislike for microformats and revert campaign against them may have more to do with this than actually writing an encyclopaedia.
Please note that previous attempts to discuss my concerns with this editor have led to the demand that I do not communicate with him via his talk page (diff) following his comment that "Whatever you tell me will be delete and ignored whatever its content". For this reason I will not be informing Captain scarlet of this. Adambro11:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Please note that previous attempts to discuss my concerns with this editor have led to the demand that I do not communicate with him via his talk page" - likewise. Andy Mabbett13:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The particular edit on his userpage is just trolling, and you'd probably do well to ignore it, since he hasn't actually created any disruptive microformats. That said, diffs like this one seem like a more significant problem. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!)13:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No-one has suggested that he is creating microformats of any sort. far from it; he is repeatedly removing templates which happen to include microformats, without apparently any reason for doing so, or being willing to enter into reasoned discussion. Indeed, his last 50 edits alone include 13 such reverts, to just three articles: [113], [114], [115], [116], [117], [118], [119], [120], [121], [122], [123], [124] and [125]. Andy Mabbett13:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you haven't ignored anything, then I haven't either and this time consuming nonsense is nothing more than a comment on your own behaviour. Fact is you canot accuse me of doing anything more than what you do. Criticising me is nothing more than criticising yourself, if you're ready to talk, do so. You have done nothing of the sort except using vitriolous comments against me and anyone else who disagree with you, with a support of an administrator... If my edits now consist only on reverting the inclusion of Micrpoformats is because I view Microformats as nothing more than a useless gadget and because I have no desire to spend time adding valuable content thanks to you. Captain Scarletand the Mysterons22:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In which case, Captain Scarlet should probably add a brief and cogent summary of his concerns to that section, and then we can see whether his arguments are able to convince anybody else. The consensus on that page seems to be in favor of microformats, but the discussion isn't exactly extensive, so it wouldn't hurt to hash out the pros and cons in more detail. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!)20:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just have, taking care to put as much detail as Pigsonthewing. All in all, it seems Pigsonthewing is wasting his time and trying to implement something that has not yet been widely accept. That's just what's been said on the contested tlak pages like... So long Pigsonthewing doesn't shout concensus after two comments though. Captain Scarletand the Mysterons17:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with HBWS on this. Until I saw this discussion, I had never heard of Microformats, let alone knew they existed; I doubt that am I the only one on Wikipedia. (Yes, I have followed the links, read the articles, & they seem to be mostly harmless.) Being intolerant about something the rest of us have never heard about does not build consensus; explaining why they are bad might. -- llywrch21:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
your comment isn't really acceptable since you qualify my comments as intolerent. My history with Pigsonthewing is that Pigsonthewing makes intolerant and narrowminded comments, you are keen to forget that and believe Pigsonthewing's query by word alone. I don't particularly have to justify why I'm against, Pigsonthewing does however have to argue why they are such an asset to the plain reader. Captain Scarletand the Mysterons17:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I admit "intolerant" wasn't the best choice of words, but I'm not taking any one's side here (except perhaps HBWS). My point is that if you don't like them, if you explain why, you'll convince the rest of us that they are bad, & you might put an end to them. Staging a campaign against their existence without explaining yourself (beyond saying that they are an "unapproved" innovation) at best makes people think you are some kind of a kook. But if you don't care about how you come across to the rest of us -- well, continue on. Just don't do any of the usual stuff that you know will get you into trouble. -- llywrch19:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"My history with Pigsonthewing is that Pigsonthewing makes intolerant and narrowminded comments" - that's a lie. Your exclamation "Die! Microformats" is quite reasonably described as "intolerant", as is your puerile habit of linking the word "microformats" to the article on feces.
"I don't particularly have to justify why I'm against" - er, you do if you wish your claims to be taken seriously, You've made a claim, it's up to you to substantiate it.
"Pigsonthewing does however have to argue why they are such an asset to the plain reader" My name is Andy Mabbett, and I have already explained, at length, the benefits of microformats, which are invisible to the "plain reader". In contrast, you appear to have advanced no arguements to suport yor - untenable - position.
Pigsonthewing: [QUOTE]"My history with Pigsonthewing is that Pigsonthewing makes intolerant and narrowminded comments" - that's a lie. Your exclamation "Die! Microformats" is quite reasonably described as "intolerant", as is your puerile habit of linking the word "microformats" to the article on feces.[/QUOTE] Should I serve that to the incidents page and ask you to apologise for your comments or will you openly apologise for your outrageous comments?
Anyway, Pigsonthewing; I have in length offered you many arguments why quoting your own arguments but you chose to dismiss them, this morning once again was an example of dismissal [141]. I have yet to see explainations the benefits of Microformats, which are in no way invisible in articles and involve lengthy work for an apparent identical result. In your explaination you may include uses of Microformat and explain how having a different and complicated code may benefit the plain reader by showing an apparent identical result? you have failed to follow the appropriate procedure to implement what you broadcast as a groundbreaking project and started implementation, including multiple reverts to impose this rather than face the music first and wait the weeks or months necessary to implement this. This enquery is not about this however but about the fact that I show my dislike for Microformats, an opinion hardly condemnable since the opossite isn't. Captain Scarletand the Mysterons11:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I stand by the comments you quote. You appear to remain unable or unwilling to substantiate your claims about microformats; but instead parade an real or feigned ignorance of their benefits and a refusal to read or acknowledge the references you have previously been provided with (once again: WP:UF). You say microformats "are in no way invisible in articles". In what way are they visible? Andy Mabbett12:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Further unjustified reverting
In [142], Captain Scarlet has just removed coordinates from an infobox (and in doing so removed a geo microformat from the page), with the one-word edit summary "fix". What was broken? Andy Mabbett12:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you look at the edit summeries, however, you will find that every edit of Hel Hufflepuff has the edit summery of [[WP:IAR]] or [[WP:IAR|rvv]]. I don't see any of this thing with Gryffindor. In addition, since the summery rvv seems to suggest reverts, I checked whether these were actually reverts. The result is that every one of these edits which I checked seems to be a revert of either Anthony Appleyard or of Naconkantari, or tagging a page created by them with {{db-vandal}}. OdMishehu07:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
While looking through the block log, I found 1 account which does look similar, although it was blocked sooner. This is the Row Ravenclaw account, which seems to follow the same pattern as Hel Hufflepuff:
Would it be okay for a good-faith user to create an account which he believes a specific vandal will want, in order to prevent that vandal from creating it? OdMishehu07:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mass deletion of television articles by TTN
User has been notified of this action through a message at User talk:TTN TTN has engaged in a one-person crusade to delete literally thousands of television episode articles, representing tens of thousands of hours of work by Wikipedia editors. These include episodes for TV series like Code Lyoko, Ben 10, and Sailor Moon among others. TTN is replacing the articles with simple redirects to "List of episode" pages. There is no assessment of the articles, not is there any attempt at adding the deleted information to the aforementioned "list" pages. (TTN's "notification" consists of a single message left on each series' "List of episodes" page - which is not necessarily on the watchlist of editors who contribute to the affected articles.) The resultant cleanup, on a massive scale, is being dumped on the editors of the affected pages. All of this is under the guise of the WP:EPISODE guideline.
TTN is also unwilling to engage in any meaningful discussion of these actions. Efforts to reason with TTN are met with dismissive replies, as per the following examples:
"People who disagree with all episodes being removed do not count." (here)
"Who really cares if people don't agree with what I do? Anyone that does disagree is a major inclusionist like yourself or a fan. Frankly, their opinions do not matter." (here)
"It doesn't really matter if people are grumpy as long as I'm removing useless information." (here)
"People disagree with me, big whoop. They can only use false arguments most of the time anyways." (here)
Regardless of where one stands on the issue, the manner in which it is being handled is completely unacceptable. At the very least, there should be some sort of discussion regarding WP:EPISODE. A crusade like this, especially with no attempt at discussion, is divisive and will only damage the Wikipedia community. This is *not* how Wikipedia should operate. Sincerely, Ckatzchatspy08:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
TTN has been pretty much spot on with his deletions though. Empty articles written using a standard template and containing about two lines of useful text being redirected to a main episode list page is policy. Nick08:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It seems excessive, and from a cursory glance, heavy-handed and likely to cause more trouble than it's worth. En mass changes of that magnitude should have undergone centralized discussion. That is, beyond a guideline page I never heard of. El_C09:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
He's following guidelines. Problem is, no one has ever noticed this, so it's just been growing bigger. That's why you're objecting, right? Because of the size. I assume those dismissive comments are merely a result of him referring to the same policy over and over again for a number of months. - Zero1328Talk?09:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The messages are presented in a cynical way, but they're absolutely truthful. All comments about this are placed from a personal level rather than one backed by any sort of policy or guideline. They're either grumpy that the episodes are gone or they feel insulted from a lack of discussion (which they don't end up bothering with). I am perfectly willing to participate in a constructive discussion that will bring about good sources. The problem is most people are fine with the current condition of the articles, so they somehow avoid actually finding any. Only one person/group has really done anything, and I have no idea how it has gone this past month. TTN10:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To El C: This has already undergone a centralized discussion that lead to that guideline, so now it is up to users to find sources for their single series. Further attempts at more discussion leads to nothing more than rambling, paranoia, and yelling. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kept Man for why this needs to be done away from things like that. TTN10:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
TTN, the job you're doing is one that needs to be done, but some of the above quotes show you could perhaps be a little kinder? Neil╦12:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Kinder, perhaps, but experience shows that fans will not accept anything less than an article per episode, so sometimes being blunt just saves time. Guy (Help!) 14:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unless if server memory is an issue, I see no good reason not to have articles that obviously a good segment of the community finds interesting or useful. As long as they are referenced and even a handful think they are encyclopedic, deleting them only turns off many readers. We should not be exclusive or elitist. --24.154.173.24317:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well I took a look myself at this guideline and I would have to say I disagree with the how the episode was dealt with the critics, since a great number of shows would not have this kind of information and I feel that this alone is unneccessary, adding in a plot summary that is not too minor or too detailed with any available data for key members of the production crew, and any avaiable cultrual reference or notable trivia and sources are found. However, the problem with sourcing is that their are hardly any episode books on the market and many of the only worthwhile links come from fansites which would fail Wikipedia's established link policy because it is a fansite with questionable source material. Me thinks that the whole episode policy needs to be re-evaluated and decide which shows should have their own episode page and which one should have a list instead. -24.20.180.7315:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So what you are saying is that there is a concensus on which shows should be allowed to have their own specific episode articles? -Adv19315:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Kurykh, WP:EFFORT is only a guideline which applies to deletion discussion. This doesn't seem to me a deletion debate at all. Here we're discussing whether it was a sensible course of action to redirect hundreds of articles without holding any talks beforehand. This move is inappropriate because one single editor shouldn't take it upon themselves to pour cold water on the work of many other editors (again, without consensus), so yes, EFFORT is a valid argument. Peacent03:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
I'll preface my remarks by saying that AN/I probably isn't the place for a discussion over Wikipedia guidelines. With that in mind, however, the way TTN is proceeding - and the scale of it - should not be permitted until a consensus on the larger issue can be achieved. Whether consciously or not, the Wikipedia community has permitted the creation of these articles, and allowed them to develop and grow - not for days, or weeks, but for *years*. This is not a question of a few random pages that don't meet guidelines - we're talking about literally thousands of pages, and tens of thousands of hours of work by good, solid contributors. We're talking about the Television project, dozens of related sub-projects, and all the rules, guidelines, and procedures developed within those structures with the goal of standardizing content and creating professional product. We're talking about editors who - on a daily basis - struggle to maintain a strong body of pop-culture content. Not only are they having to weed out the constant onslaught of speculation, trivia, and fan-boy debris, but they are also having to work within a community that, to some degree, "looks down" on their efforts as being "less than worthy". (See this note from TheDJ) TTN says "go to TV.com and Wikia" - but that is *not* the same thing. Speaking for myself, if I wanted speculation, fan theories, and "what if" scenarios, sure, I'd go to those sites. That, however, is *not* what I want out of an article, and not what I want to work on. Whether you like pop-culture articles or not shouldn't be the issue here - it should be about showing a certain degree of respect for your fellow Wikipedians. TTN's actions, I'm sorry to say, do not meet that mark. --Ckatzchatspy17:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There already is a larger consensus: WP:EPISODE. Just because single editors don't want the articles that they work on to be gone, it doesn't mean this it isn't valid. They all miserably fail that, WP:N, WP:V, and various other combinations of things like WP:NOR and WP:NOT depending on the single articles. Something needed to be done, so I'm doing it. Otherwise, we'll just be sitting around and twiddling our thumbs, all while having an idle discussion that will get nowhere. Plus, the comments that you quoted were not towards editors trying to keep a single series. They were towards people saying that I should not continue just because people disagree with me or people suggesting that I bother with single discussions for every single one (though few are ever responded to). TTN17:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard for episodes to not fail anything if they are deleted before editors even have a chance to finish expanding them. Clearly there is NOT a consensus on this matter by any means. --24.154.173.24317:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Most of these have existed for well over a year. Time has nothing to do with it. People stop editing after the plot summary is up. Only a little tweaking here and there and the addition of trivia follows. TTN17:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So, how is having articles that obviously a number of editors and readers find helpful somehow detrimental to this website? If you or others do not like these articles, why not just ignore them or work on other projects than destroy what others have worked on and what others do find helpful? Are we running out of memory or something? --24.154.173.24317:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We don't keep articles because they're "helpful." This site is based upon building a source of information with encyclopedic and verifiable information. If it is impossible to do that with a subject, it doesn't belong (no matter how "helpful or interesting" it may be). TTN17:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, by your own post then, the articles should be kept, because a) episode information can be easily verified and b) by the definition of encylopedia provided on Wikipedia, they are encylcopedic as they are examples of "general" knowledge "containing articles on topics in every field." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedic#The_term --24.154.173.24318:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I led myself right into that one. Verifiable by this sites standards (published sources), not just from the primary source. It has to be notable in that way, or it is just unencyclopedic. General means general, not in-depth. The general overview is the episode list, not the specific articles. TTN18:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Then, why not just put some kind of request for sources tag on the articles? It shouldn't be too hard for people to add a source for each episode. --24.154.173.24318:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The tags aren't magic. Sources have to exist and people have to be willing to work on them. The reason they're being redirected is because both of those aren't met. TTN18:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sources exist on such websites as Tv.com and even on the network websites for the shows. With thousands of editors and an ever growing community, you'd have to think that more and more people will eventually be willing and able to meet such standards. --24.154.173.24318:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Those aren't good enough to build articles (tv.com, for example, is not a reliable source). Trust me, sources don't exist for most episodes, and users don't care for their quality. They just want a place to write summaries. If what you are suggesting was possible, I would be doing that rather than redirecting. You're going down the same exact road as the rest of the people that are trying to keep these, and it's a dead end. TTN18:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bzz Wrong, this conflict will never be over as long as there are a massive amount of editors that fight for what they believe in, ignoring the rules, and some such as myself who believe that such rules or styles on Episode pages can still be changed. -168.156.153.17518:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In a very literal sense, this conflict is dividing editors up into two armed camps, one that follows their beliefs vs. those that follow policies and tend to stubbornly stick it out, and both are refusing to give up until they can achieve victory.-168.156.154.15518:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
While the standards TTN is working for aren't rules (they're Wikipedia guidelines, which are more like loose standards), this conflict has brought out far more- there have been not only lots of hurt feelings, [143] administrative misconduct (admin engages in revert warring [144] then blocks the opposing side[145]), insults[146], and even admissions that some editors are even afraid to confront TTN[147]. It's obvious that this quest has had widespread ramifications beyond a simple content dispute, and I fear without some actual discussion beyond what's currently here, that it will only get worse. 76.28.138.8318:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
TTN's actions mirror those of the Admins that were removing all of the non-free images on Wikipedia that did not meet the criteria that was established. All those "list of episodes" pages that had tons of screencaptures had them all removed. The reason it mirrors that, is because all of these articles have been in "stub" hell for months, if not years, and they've only been allowed because people said "they can be expanded". This never happened. Why? Because "plots" do not equate to "expanding" and article, and fluffing it up with other unencyclopedic information doesn't equate to that either. "Featured music", "quotes", "trivia". This still doesn't go on film articles, why would you put it on an episode article? Here's some tips if you want the episode articles to exist. Find relevant, real world information. We have a Wikiquote, so listing quotes is not only unencyclopedic, but irrelevant when we have a place for it. "Featured music" is not encyclopedic, because it isn't an "album" or a "single", it's just sampled music here and there in an article. If you can find out why those songs were chosen then that can be used, but listing a bunch of songs falls into listing trivia. Speaking of, all experienced editors should the rule of thumb when it comes to trivia. Most importantly, and what seems to be the biggest problem, plots are supposed to summarize an episode, not substitute for watching it. Remember, plots are "non-free" information, and we have to establish an encyclopedic right to use them, because they do fall under the republication of copyrighted material. The words may be yours, but the story, and the events are copyrighted by that particular studio. Good examples are Pilot (House), Pilot (Smallville), and Aquaman (TV program). This is what episode articles should strive for, but, as hard as it may be to hear, all cannot attain. 80-90% of these articles will never have that information, why, because it would take too much time for a director to sit down with every episode and commentate, or interview about them. These guys get a few months out of the year for breaks, and then spend the rest working on the next episode. The episodes being redirected, like all those non-free images, do not meet the criteria for an episode article and their existence has been allowed for far too long. TTN's actions may seem drastic (I am actually doing a merge discussion, but that's because I am only concerned about 1 television series, and not about the whole, as TTN is) but he's doing what should have been done long ago. He probably could have handled it differently, and alerted the community, but that's like saying someone should have told you that if you swim with sharks you're going to get bit. Everyone that works on television articles a lot, knows the guidelines for how to handle these episode articles. They even specifically say that not every episode will warrant an article, yet people are creating all 100+ episodes for a given series without even stopping to think if they should. BIGNOLE (Contact me)21:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I know, I mean I personally reverted that insult and that I my preference is to find a fair negotiation rather than be insulting, since I am noticing it is less likely that leaving the pages the way they are will not work otherwise this debate could happen again. -Adv19321:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Update
This is getting completely out of hand - now TTN is gutting series articles without even announcing what is happening. The entire Weeds series of articles has been redirected, without so much as an announcement on either the main page or the "List of Weeds episodes" talk pages. There's only a cryptic "Cut links" edit summary; other than that, TTN appears to have no presence whatsoever on either page. The same things just happened for the series Undeclared. Can't someone do something about this? --Ckatzchatspy20:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's the way that I have been doing it. I've only posted a message on thirty or so articles. Only eight of those garnered any sort of attention. There is no point if nobody is going to respond. Any discussion can happen afterwards. TTN20:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So, how is causing editors to want to disappear a good thing?
TTN requests a 3rd opinion for Ocean Hunter and Bjelleklang replies, "What about creating a List of bosses in The Ocean Hunter article?" Amatulic offers, "If there's a site describing the bosses, go ahead and link to it in an External Links section." How does TTN respond? "We do neither" and "Both of those examples don't help anything." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Ocean_Hunter#3rd_opinion for the full discussion. He asked for a third opinion and when two individuals offer ideas that were not the full answers TTN as hoping for, he disregards them and deletes the material without accepting these compromise elements of the two third opinions offered. This is really distressing. Wikipedians should not alienate other editors or only selectively listen to 3rd opinions when it suits them. --164.107.222.2316:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The real issue at hand
The discussion is all getting rather heated here, and is complicated by the fact people are concerned about two issues. The first is what does or does not constitute a good episode article. This is best discussed at Wikipedia talk:Television episodes, or Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Television (ie. rather than expounding at length here your reasons why episode pages should exist). The second is the pertinent issue, which is best considered on its merits alone (ie. not clouded by whether you agree with his/her motives): Is the behaviour of TTN overstepping the mark? The complaint against him/her is:
TTN is redirecting episode pages for a vast number of television programmes, and:
is doing so with little or no constructive discussion on talk pages or warning of his/her intentions
is doing it as such speed he/she cannot be assessing the articles critically
is choosing to redirect rather than merge (ie. makes no effort to salvage appropriate content for the main series page)
is choosing to redirect rather than flag an article for improvement (eg clean-up or source tags)
is not taking editorial responsibility for his redirects (eg. following broken links)
is carrying on these actions even while aware they are inflammatory and appears to show no interest in reaching a compromise
discussion above shows TTN’s own admission he/she does not bother with talk pages.
Example of uncritical redirect (ie a redirect without considering potential of episode pages): Yes Minister series. See Yes Minister page for example of references and sources possible regarding this series. Example episode: The Moral Dimension see diff. Note also the only explanation given! This episode would not yet rate as a good article, but it could be brought up to such a standard with critical comment and sources (which are available). TTN is fond of quoting WP:EPISODE. I feel this example (ie all Yes Minister and Yes, Prime Minister episodes), comes under the following:
Note:Stubs are allowed on Wikipedia and many articles are stubs. It may be inappropriate to merge or redirect an article about a television episode just because it is a stub. Before executing a merge, ask yourself: Will the merge reduce the quality or coherence of the target article? Also do some basic looking for additional source material that could be used to improve the article. Are more sources available? If the answer to either of these questions is 'yes', it is probably better to forgo merging or redirecting. Instead, leave the article as it is or consider improving it.
In summary: Many of the episode pages TTN has redirected may be unworthy of having their own pages, but the manner in which TTN is editing is unacceptable, and interferes with legitimate discussion and due process. Gwinva21:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe there was any "warning" for all the removals of non-free images. There was one large discussion and it was decided that they shouldn't be included at all if they cannot satify the criteria for them. Well, the debate about television articles has long since past, and the result of that is the basis for the criteria of creating them now. TTN doesn't have to "warn" anyone, or "discuss" this with anyone. If someone challenges a particular episodes redirection then that is one thing, but as a whole, the vast majority are unchallengeable. Articles with plot summaries longer than featured film articles? If someone thinks they can expand the articles, then work on it and then un-redirect them. The whole problem has been that they were all created under the guise that they could/would be expanded, when the sad fact is that most can't/won't be expanded. I've sat and gawked at an episode page that has only grown in words toward the plot for months upon months, until a year goes by. When you can't update something, don't continue to argue for its inclusion when you know it's a lost cause. There are thousands of episode articles on Wikipedia right now (which isn't hard to believe, just think about the average number of episodes for a series and start multiplying). How many are GA status? How many are FA status? How many are even close to fulfilling encyclopedic guidelines? That's thousands of articles that should not have been created in the first place. There is a system to how one should go about creating these articles, and people are ignoring it in favor of the fact that they are fans of a show and the redundant argument of "well others are doing it". BIGNOLE (Contact me)22:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The first cannot be done most of the time. It happens when necessary. The second only requires a quick glance for real sources. I may miss a couple here and there, but it won't be substantial. With the third, there is nothing to merge. Plot summaries are a dime a dozen. They don't need to be salvaged. The fourth is just impossible. Flagging only works if people to work on them and sources exist. What are you talking about with five? Double redirects? Bots take care of those. General links to the episodes? That's what redirects are for. And with six, there is no compromise. They either meet the site's standards with sources, or they are removed.
My editing speed is not too quick to ignore good sources. The example you show details nothing but one small development source. The Yes Minister editors have not provided me with one possible source, only stating that "they're good enough." If someone can provide them, I'm fine. Stubs are allowed if they can improve, once they have shown that ability, they're fine. TTN22:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
TTN very much *does* need to discuss this matter first. It is called "common courtesy" - and it would go a lot farther toward achieving his/her goal than the current method. As for the comparison to the non-free image issue, it is a very different matter and as such not relevant to this discussion. Finally, Bignole said that "the debate about television articles has long since past." Well, by allowing the television projects to exist, to grow, and to foster these articles *for such a long time*, the community as a whole is now responsible for having a fair and reasonable discussion as to how to address the issue *after the fact*. You can't just say "Oh, you should have known better, you naughty TV people. Now you have to learn your lesson." If the house is getting cluttered, you don't just dump it all in a bin and put it out by the curb. That doesn't make sense. --Ckatzchatspy22:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Pretending to discuss for the sake of discussing is useless. If something useful can come out of it, I will push to discuss. Otherwise, it is easier to let a discussion come to me. It isn't worth it to place messages when only one out of ten is replied to, and nobody actually wants to discuss. It's either "Leave them alone. They're fine" or "Leave them alone. They have sources. You go find them." (without showing them). That isn't productive, but I'll still talk with people like I have been. Again, we have WP:EPISODE to address the issue. They need to meet it or say goodbye. It's better to dump the trash rather than make pointless decorations that only eccentric people find useful. TTN22:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It maybe courtest, but it was discussed awhile ago. It's something the regular editors of the pages should have imparted on all the new editors before they created the articles. I agree, if TTN had let people know it would have smoothed the process, but then he would have spent even more time dealing with those that cryout over something that should have been down before...oh wait, they are crying out. I guess TTN was damned if he did, damned if he didn't. The idea of episode articles has been touchy, and always will because people forget what Wikipedia is, that's an encyclopedia. This is not IMDb.com, or TV.com, or some fansite. Sorry, but the idea of non-free image is relevant. Why were the non-free images removed? Because they failed the criteria that was set forth a long time ago, but was never really acted on until some Admins said "this is enough". Episode articles that don't meet the criteria were redirected because of that. It wasn't like they didn't have the chance to be expanded with relevant information. Also, what's this "naughty television people". In case you hadn't noticed, I am one of those television people. Of the three articles I listed as examples above (Smallville, House, and Aquaman), I expanded two of them. I'm currently working on a new format for season pages that will allow for the expansion of information regarding episodes, until one gets to the point that it should be split off to its own article. Sorry to dissapoint, but I am one of those "television people", I simply understand the criteria that was established previously for this type of stuff. The fact that it was left without consequences doesn't mean that it should be re-evaluated. What needs to be evaluated is the fact that people have consistently ignored the proper channels of creation. What has TTN removed? Overly long plots? Copyright violations avoided in my opinion? Removal of "list of quotes"? More copyright violations avoided. A list of guest stars? That can all be compiled on a season page, or on a "List of minor characters" page that follows a format similar to List of Harry Potter films cast members. Trivia? I think we all know what is supposed to happen to trivia. The unverified information that has existed in the article since it was created? I believe the rule on that is the burden of evidence falls on the person adding it, and not on any other editor and can by removed on site when there is not source to accompany the information. People say "the episode is the source". Most information that uses an episode as a source is probably original research. Unless you are referring to a commentary, which has its own template for citation. BIGNOLE (Contact me)22:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A look at TTN's so-called "Contributions" demonstrates that that page itself should be redirected to "Deletions". I can see nothing on it that has constructively improved Wikipedia and a raft of behaviour bordering on sheer arrogance (almost as if he/she "owns" Wikipedia) that has left nothing but division and bad feeling in its wake. TTN, have you ever created an article? Your excuse is you "don't have the time" to improve existing ones, yet you seem to have an overabundance of it when there are pages out there that don't meet your personal view of what Wikipedia should be. I say it's better to keep things that "only eccentric people find useful" instead of discarding what only the narrow-minded find objectionable. Chris 4223:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
These articles have had ample time by the regular editors to be improved. But, when do they do anything regarding them? when someone comes to redirect them. Even then, the only thing done is either a revert or a complain that they were redirected. Have you taken the time to expand any of these articles that were redirected Chris? The door swings both ways. Instead of complaining, people could actually work to find relevant, real world, reliable, verifiable information to expand these articles. Instead, I see lists of trivia copied from IMDb, original research, and overly long plots. BIGNOLE (Contact me)23:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well in any case I do have to point out that my idea is that for shows that do deserve their own episode pages is to work on just expanding simple episode summaries that are not too small or too broad since this definitly not TV.com. Besides people can watch the show or collect the DVD's to know the entire plot to an episode, so no need for so many episode pages. This is my idea of a compromise since it will follow standards and still provide a simple summary for people to read, the only difference is that the fans are going to have to learn that on Wikipedia they can't always get what they want. -Adv19323:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's a flaw in how Wikipedia works, that you get used to having or making episode articles only to have someone come along and tell you no. I know how it feels to just be so pissed, because you worked so hard on all that content, just to have it pulled from under you. The problem, however, gets so big that we can't realistically stop and hold everyone's hand. It's a bad formula. Hopefully we'll be able to improve how we get guidelines to editors before they invest all that time and effort. -- Ned Scott05:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is an interesting thread, so I'll offer my two-bits. There are endless TV show episodes and to have an article on each one of them is absurd. The WP:EPISODE guideline seems to address this and TTN seems to be doing something about it. Of course fans will object, but if their not liking it is their only argument, users trying to address a real problem can not be blamed for being a bit brusque. In the same vein as the above comment, there is a flaw in how Wikipedia works: articles on popular shite abound while more serious articles are thin, biased or missing. Fanaticism has no place in an encyclopaedia. --Jack Merridew08:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd just like to add something quickly. While the guidelines that currently exist are in line with what TTN is doing, I don't believe they'll remain so for long when high-traffic articles such as Lost and Simpsons are redirected, and a broader section of Wikipedia users are allowed to contribute to the discussion. Yes, yes, I know you guys all think that because you're better at wikipedia than the average user, your consensus in these out of the way pages is more important than what 90% of Wikipedia users want, but that's not really the case. Sure, most of those episode articles are useless to me, but some of them I look up from time to time if I'm curious about what that song was, or who that character was again - that's why Wikipedia is here. You could say, "look up TV.com instead", but then, you wouldn't tell someone interested in an article on the Soviet Union to go look up their library or Jstor instead. Unless this issue is tackled head on it's going to drag on and on, and after this discussion is over a week or two will pass, he (or someone else) will delete ten more series, and then another one will start. When you can quote the founder of Wikipedia saying he envisaged articles on individual TV shows, and when most users would probably prefer to have them, you have to wonder at what stage do these thing become against the rules? There seems to be this sneaky behind the scenes ruling of Wikipedia happening, and the worst thing is, I have no idea what it's trying to accomplish? Are you trying to save bandwidth? Uphold prestige? Gain popularity with other page-deleters? The encyclopedia is created for the users, not for the contributors.
Finally, and more to the point, most of the episodes redirected are there after the information from the episode lists was removed because it grew too big. When they are redirected the summaries on the episode lists are either blank or very minor, without any notes on the episode, and so editors who had worked on the articles have to go back and redo every single episode summary. I think, personally, it's wreckless to redirect the episodes without either transferring any important information (if any) from the episode articles, or asking on the talk pages for people to do so before editors have to start trying to access histories for pages that have been redirected.Conor10:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOT for plot summaries: instead of creating separate articles because the plot summaries got too long, they should just have been drastically reduced. Retelling the plot of every episode is excessive in-universe detail. Fram11:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, granted. But the people who created the articles obviously weren't aware of that. My point is that there is a middle ground between an overly long summary and nothing at all, or a one-line one. That is, it seems, what should be on the List of Episodes page, and what probably was before the episode pages were created. There are also details like guest-stars, etc. After the episodes have been redirected however, there are usually no details at all left on the List of Episodes pages. And please stop linking to policies, I've seen them.Conor11:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fram, separate articles for television episodes contain not only the plot summaries but also valuable information about writers, producers, directors, cast, music, etc All of which, unfortunately, cannot possibly be included on the list of episodes. Peacent15:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've started yesterday as a test to rewrite the episodes of one season of a major TV series into a season article. In that case at least, I really don't see a problem (and I include writers and so on, as given in the episode articles). I'll try to finish it tomorrow as I'm very short on time at the moment though... Fram15:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've said before, although a lot of work has been done, we are by no means in short supply of editors to write plot summaries. As for WP:EPISODE, that's actually a guideline that just keeps getting used more, who's support has gotten stronger even in the days of Lost and The Simpsons (The Simpsons actually has a few good episode articles, actually, because they're able to include a good real of notable real-world information). -- Ned Scott19:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Plea for attention by impartial admin
It's happening again: everyone is being distracted by 'episode page rationale' arguments. This leads to conclusions such as "TTN must be a bad editor because he is reverting episode pages which I think are worthwhile" or the ends-justifies-the-means contingent "episode pages are a waste of time, so TTN is doing the right thing". The point of this discussion here (surely) is because Ckatz requested admin arbitration for TTN's bullying and inappropriate editing. Is there any admin with no particular view one way or another regarding the existence of episode pages who might pass some judgement on TTN's behaviour? If it's appropriate, then a precedent is set, and this discussion serves no purpose: take the episode-page issue to the guideline forums, and stop hassling TTN. If TTN's behaviour is inappropriate, then that needs to be resolved. complaint one: TTN is editing recklessly and without due process... see particularly #The real issue at hand. complaint two TTN's manner is bullying... see throughout this discussion, but also Goodies talk, User talk: Matthew, User talk:Angie_Y. I am sure others have encountered many more examples. (Please note, TTN is not the only 'aggressor' in these debates, of course).
So I might make my bias clear, I don't feel strongly about episode pages, and concede that TTN has legitimate concerns about their validity. But I do find his/her methods aggressive, and found myself annoyed by his/her actions on pages I only had a passing interest in (I soon calmed down, however!), so I can believe he/she is stirring up great anger amongst the passionate contributors. I consider his/her manner of editing is creating divisions and inhibiting any consensus on best practice...compromise could be reached (I am sure) if tempers on all sides were allowed to calm down.Gwinva09:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)I see no problem with his edits, and only some mild incivility which is understandable when you have to deal with the same mostly baseless complaints over and over again. Most episodes will never have a decent article, and even the ones that perhaps could, like the Yes, Minister example you give, don't have any good sources now. I have no problem with anyone making it a redlink, just like I have no problem with anyone restoring it in a decently sourced version explaining why that particular episode is notable. Take "The Bishop's Gambit": why do we have this article? I haven't got a clue, but TTN's correct redirect (with a good reason given in the edit summary) was undone in seven hours time (without a reason, discussion or improvements to the article). I don't think that the problem lies with TTN... Fram11:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Gwinva. It is the — dare I say — 'fanatical' way that TTN has gone about this that has rocked the boat. There are more Wiki guidelines that TTN has ignored than followed. In addition, it is the dictatorial, bullying attitude ('source them or else') that makes people think that TTN is not the sort of person who is capable of a mature and considered discussion on the matter, and so don't wish to engage in one. I am perfectly willing to add to articles as and when I can or wish to: after all, it's a hobby, not a job, so why should I be pressured to improve them on one person's say so? If TTN wishes people to respect his/her views then he/she must earn that respect in the first place. Recommended reading for TTN: How to Win Friends and Influence People (sorry it's unsourced). Chris 4211:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fram: the reason I gave The Moral Dimension as an example of unnecessary reverting is not because it is well sourced now, but because the WP:EPISODE guideline TTN is quoting to legitimise his redirects expressly states such an article should not be redirected. Quote: Are more sources available? If the answer to either of these questions is 'yes', it is probably better to forgo merging or redirecting. Instead, leave the article as it is or consider improving it. The main Yes Minister page demonstrates the wealth of possible sources available to the editors of its episode pages. To blank and redirect an article beacuse it is as yet incomplete and unsourced is a nonsense... most articles on Wikipedia are in that state. For the redirect to be reverted immediately is not a wrong action, but trying to correct what was perceived to be a hasty action. Nowhere on Wikipedia is it required for an article to be well-sourced and compliant to every guideline before it is displayed in public space (ie not lost somewhere in an edit history of a redirect page). I have never written or contributed to a Yes Minister article, and will have little cause to read them, but I have no doubt most of them have the potential to be brought up to GA status (and commited editors who are likely to work towards that with encouragement) and I am strongly of the opinion that blanket redirection of such articles is unfair, inappropriate and contrary to due procedure. NO guideline is in place to vindicate such actions.Gwinva13:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I've been following the discussion and thought, as an impartial spectator, I would add to the discussion. The main issues that people seem to have a problem is (A.) The way that TTN is doing things and (B.) What TTN is doing. As someone said above, these issues need to be completely separated in order to reach any sort of resolve. My personal opinion about issue A, is that TTN's attitude is slightly inappropriate and I'm quite sure that if I was having a debate with s/he, the comments used may have stung, and therefore this problem could be addressed if TTN regained civility. I'm not trying to say that all it needs is a magic patch and everything will be alright though. If I was TTN, I'd be frustrated that my attempts at discussion were either being ignored or simply complained about. My opinion of issue B, is that TTN is doing a good job at weeding out problem articles which are copyright violations due to the intense amount of plot and storyline in them. I agree wholeheartedly with Bignole that most of these articles need more than a plot summary to qualify for their own articles; reception and production are areas which make good articles, not fan trivia. I would also like to point out that I love TV! Wikipedia is not a fansite though.
To chris 42: "Recommended reading for TTN: How to Win Friends and Influence People (sorry it's unsourced)." wasn't helpful. If you want to keep respect in this discussion, you should treat all users how you would want to be treated.
I myself can't really comment on the overall edits of everything TTN's done, but what I CAN say is that I think most people who are upset are that way because of the attitudes and actions of the users involved, not so much the edits themselves. I think that seems to really be the catalyst here. By making such widespread changes, TTN should have EXPECTED some users to disagree with him and try to discuss it on his talk page. But instead, he's tried to intimidate people and eliminate discussion about the edits he's made. It's not helpful, for example, to tell people to "go away" when they are trying to talk to you, nor does it benefit the encyclopedia to tell someone that "frankly, their opinions do not matter". The above noted examples of an administrator hopping into the fray and creating a clear conflict of interest are also concerning. The most amazing thing is that this is all happening over a Guideline, something that's not even an official Wikipedia rule! Look, like I said before, I'm sure that TTN's done some good by cleaning out the cruft. I don't have an issue with that. But what needs to be addressed is the ignoring of other editors, the intimidation, the violations en masse of Wikipedia's civility policies, and the administrator stuff. It's getting out of hand. 76.28.138.8314:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still wondering why the people that are complaining aren't working on their episode articles. There are some neutral people that find this iffy, but the rest have some sort of connection to a series. Instead of complaining, people should be finding sources, and working on the articles. People can find my method to be crude, but that doesn't mean that the episodes have gained a right to exist. Most that have been reverted haven't even been touched.
Now on to my methods, are they really that bad? I redirect a series. If there are no complaints, it's fine. It's just as if a discussion was formed but nobody replied. If someone does complain, a discussion can be held, which is the same as forming a discussion in the first place. How are those really any different? Then we have my attitude. People just need to suck it up. I don't recall being more blunt than necessary. When I ask "where are the sources?", people should be able to reply instead of going off on tangents about how bad this is in general. I understand that people would rather have a nice discussion, but that becomes impossible after repeating "Do you have sources?" for the fifth time. Discussion requires people to actually discuss; that doesn't happen.
TTN, as I mentioned above, I don't have any particular issue with the articles you've edited. I can't say whether or not your changes were warranted- that's for the individual authors and you to work out. But what DOES concern me stems from what was raised earlier regarding civility and conflicts of interest. Wiki's "Guidelines" aren't strict rules, but the policies on civility are. Telling people to "go away" or that their "opinions don't matter" really are extremely uncivil things. Wikipedia invites EVERYONE to constructively edit, and all opinions matter equally, no matter who the opinion belongs to. The admin's edit warring wasn't your doing, so you aren't responsible for that. But any and all occurrences of incivility, edit warring, intimidation and such should be looked into very closely, on all sides of the discussion. 76.28.138.8317:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
TTN, for your first query, I think your move is unpleasant because you act based on your own will without holding a discussion beforehand. This isn't appropriate especially when your interpretation of the guideline goes against that of many other editors. Also, for your second query "How are those really any different?". The difference lies in your negative approach to the matter. It is always helpful to consider seeking consensus before taking a contentious action, the fact that nobody replied is not an excuse. You should at least do people the courtesy of notifying them of what you intend to do before actually doing it. I doubt if anyone will complain if you actually start a discussion before mass deleting everything. About the thread User:Matthew below, well, an administrator might take a look at it for you (I'm not sure), but in my humble opinion, if you're being bold, please accept that others may revert you (WP:BRD). As I gather from this whole thread and some debates elsewhere, there's no sign of consensus on the matter, which makes it entirely understandable if your edits are reverted. Peacent17:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(reply to TTN - adjusting indent for clarity)
TTN: yes, your methods *are* that bad. (Sorry, but it is true.) To be quite honest, that was the primary reason we ended up on this page. Look, I can appreciate that you obviously feel quite strongly about what you are doing, and that you think you are right. (We'll have to agree to disagree about that, but let's put that aside for now.) The thing is, it appears to me that you have failed to take into account the hundreds (thousands?) of other editors who created the work you are removing. You might feel it shouldn't be there, but that does not change the fact that real people spent real time and effort to create it. That alone should dictate a certain sensitivity in how you approach the matter. Yes, it might mean a lot of discussion, but it would be the right thing to do.
Beyond that, your edits suggest a "brute force" methodology, in that you just redirect *every* article rather than actually examining each one on its own merits. Yes, it might also take more time, but it is again the right thing to do. Finally, you are not incorporating any of the material into the pages you redirect to. Easier, yes, but it means that the arduous task of retrieving relevant information is left for others to do. That is not always an easy task; not every editor knows how to retrieve information from the history, and for that matter material on the now-redirected pages gets "lost" in the system. (How do you find an article that has been redirected when you don't know what the page name is?)
What I don't understand is why you can't approach this differently. Why not tag the articles with a notice regarding WP:EPISODE, announcing that you intend to redirect them in, say, 60 days? That gets the message across, allows a reasonable amount of time for the page editors to a) become aware of the tag and b) act on it. It also means that the community can have a real discussion about the matter - either to reaffirm the policy or to change it, whichever best suits consensus. The current "out of the blue" mass redirects are only going to create needles anger and frustration. What do you think? --Ckatzchatspy17:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
LOL! That is the funniest thing I've read. 60 days? These articles have been in existence for far longer than that, and not been touched. Try more like 14 days, or 10 days. I say, if you can prove you can expand the articles to actually meet all the guidelines on Wikipedia (verifiability, reliable sources, out-of-universe content, plots kept in check, etc), then we can talk. Granted, unless there are hundreds of editors, you won't get all episodes of a series expanded within a week, but if you can prove that it can be done (e.g. actually get a couple of them expanded) then people can step aside and say "ok, finish it up and I'll leave it alone for the time being". But you are asking everyone to bend while there's no give in the other direction. How about, if it's clear an episode isn't going to contain more than a plot (i.e. like Be Thou for the People) and some random trivia, with no verifiable, reliable sources, then you should take the initiative and merge the article. Wikipedia is not IMDb, or TV.com, it's an encyclopedia. Don't let the "not a paper encyclopedia" fool you, we still have to develop relevant content. This isn't a place for fanboys, it's a place for encyclopedic information. Then you say "maybe the policy can change"? What, try and convince the community that plots are just fine by themselves? BIGNOLE (Contact me)17:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but information on writers, producers, directors, soundtracks, etc is fully appropriate. The fact that a list of episodes cannot possibly contain all this material means a need for separate articles, as you can see, they are not all about plot summaries. Peacent18:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
List of Smallville episodes, that seems to contain the writers and directors just fine. A soundtrack is a soundtrack, but a "featured music" doesn't hold encyclopedic value. If you are just listing a song because it appeared in an episode, that holds no value. Now, if you have real world content with that, like what that song was chosen, then it does. If you have information on why the director was chosen for the episode, and what the director did explicitly for that episode, then it does. The same for the writer. But an infobox that lists a director and a writer, with the rest of the article containing nothing but a plot? that isn't. That can easily be merged. A "List of episodes" article, with a couple lines describing the premise of the episode, with the director, writer, airdate, episode number listed is just fine. In fact, I believe we have a few FLs that are set up that way. BIGNOLE (Contact me)18:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I don't see the essential cast and guest stars information on the list of episodes you mentioned above. Peacent04:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's called a parent article. Why would you repeat the same information that doesn't change over and over and over again? As for minor characters, per "writing about fiction" they usually go on a "List of characters" page. But again, cast sections does scream "make me an article". That isn't real world content. How many episodes articles are FA that only have a plot and the basic "director, writer, 'cast'" information you are insinuating makes an article? Absolutely none. That's barely even a "B" class. Further, the merging of that information into more comprenhensive articles does not hinder, but actually works better. A comprehensive list of special guests is better than creating 100+ articles that list 3 people (if that, as some episodes for some series don't have any special guests). The point is, saying "oh the list doesn't include the director, writer, or cast" is not a valid argument for "so lets create an episode article". How about, try and update the "List of" page, or whatever page happens to be the parent of the episodes, to include that information. It isn't that hard to have a couple of sections with nice clean tables that show "Cast and characters". That is the whole idea behind the guidelines for episode articles. It's about expanding what is already there, until it reaches a point that it needs to be split. If you only have the basics, like who wrote, directed, and starred in an episode, it doesn't take a lot initiative to expand a current "List of" article to include what's missing. BIGNOLE (Contact me)04:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You have to give a reasonable amount of time for people to act. 10 to 14 is unreasonably short - not everyone has that much free time for what is a big job. The point that is being ignored, as well, is that there is no analysis being done - articles are just being redirected en masse. --Ckatzchatspy18:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
14 days isn't unreasonably short. That's plenty of time to expand 1 or 2 articles. No one said they had to reach FA status immediately. But 60 days? That's unreasonably long. They get 2 months to do potentially nothing? When you force people to act sooner you get the results necessary. This isn't about having them be perfect, it's asking people to prove it can be done. The idea is that you have 2 weeks to prove you can actually get some of these episodes to fit the criteria, then there is reason to extend or remove any "ultimatum" of redirecting. BIGNOLE (Contact me)18:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Guideline <- The operative word, all that page is really is just that: a guideline, to provide guidance -- firstly they are not set in stone and secondly are supposed to be treated with common sense. The fact remains that there has been severe opposition to TTN's actions... and frankly he's not handled it well. I've personally refrained from making any serious conversation with this user, principally due to the guideline wonkery that is going on. We are here to create an encyclopaedia of knowledge, that extends to "pop culture" as well, even if it isn't desires by a group of editors -- one must remember that in order to live in harmony editors must work together, or we will fail.
Point in fact everybody has their own cruft, be it Star Trek, Naruto, trains, cars, buildings or even adult entertainment stars... and I imagine most would be willing to go to the extremes to defend "their" articles. Consensus is one of the principle components to Wikipedia -- it's how Wikipedia works and it's how we must come to conclusion in this debacle. My own behaviour in the situation has been shameful, but that's me, on the other hand so has TTN's and other users -- I would personally like TTN to cease redirecting articles and to enter into discussion so that we, as civilised human beings and Wikipedia editors may come to consensus, and conclusion. I personally take no enjoyment in having to edit war, and would also make no more reverts edits, it's my hope other users would also stop and enter into a civil discussion. Matthew17:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that people have ignored guidelines doesn't make them irrelevant. Just because they are not policy doesn't make them less, nor does it say you can ignore them completely. How many articles have you seen promoted to any status that failed any "guideline"? I bet you can count on one hand, probably on a hand with no fingers. Guidelines are there to guide, yes, but they guide for a reason. Encyclopedic content about pop culture doesn't give us the right to ignore the principles of Wikipedia. How long did people ignore the policy regarding non-free images? They didn't change the policy because of that, the enforced what had not been enforced prior. It's like the kid that misbehaves for so long that when the parent disciplines him he thinks the rules should change because it didn't happen sooner. Just because we are "bad parents", so to speak, doesn't mean the rules were not good ones to begin with. And no, i'm not saying that creating an article makes you a "bad child that misbehaves" (it's an analogy), but most people were aware of the guidelines for how to handle the "splitting" of episodes to their own articles, but chose to ignore it on the basis that "others are doing it this way and no one said anything to them". We should all already know that most people don't care so much about the entertainment section of wikipedia, and the smaller you go in the forms of entertainment the less people care. BIGNOLE (Contact me)17:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bignole makes a really weak argument here. Taking the minimalist approach to Wikipedia just turns away readers and editors. Why destroy work that obviously a good segment finds useful, when those doing the destroying or supporting the destroying could just ignore this stuff? Why should we limit ourselves to what paper encyclopedias contain? We have an opportunity to catalog more human knowledge than ever before and we should encourage people to do so. --164.107.222.2318:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Gee, thanks for the personal attack. Turns away readers? Why, because we aren't a substitution for watching a show? That isn't for your benefit, that's for Wikipedia's. Shows are copyrighted. Wikipedia isn't IMDb? I don't really hold your opinion too high, you won't even register, nor do you probably have the slightest idea of any policies and guidelines on this website. Your "arugment" is that we include everything possible no matter how irrelevant it is? Riiight. BIGNOLE (Contact me)18:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Bignole seems to be the one launching the personal attack. The other guy criticised your argument, not you personally and they way you went after a new guy just proves his point of discouraging new editors. As history has shown, being exclusive is a bad thing . . . --140.254.69.12318:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You can't claim that "most people were aware" of WP:EPISODE. In the year-and-a-half I've been here, I can't recall coming across it until this issue came up - and I'm one of those people who actually goes out of my way to read through a lot of the guideline pages. --Ckatzchatspy18:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bignole: We're not a travel guide either, that won't stop us from having pictures of buildings/etc. I've not to this day seen an article that could potentially replace an episode (and I've seen a lot of them!) Matthew18:30, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're arguing the semantics of "replacing" an episode. Sorry, but 1400 words for a 22 minutes show...that's virtual replacement. Yeah sure, I don't get the visual medium, but I know everything that happens. And see if that argument would hold up in court. "But your honor, it isn't a real "replacement", it's just words that describe what happens in the episode". That didn't work in the lawsuit against the gent that was simply quoting things from Seinfeld in his book. BIGNOLE (Contact me)18:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Did nobody read Nick's closing of this thread? If you have a legitimate issue that requires an admin's attention, great. If you are interested in continuing to bicker about episode articles, take it to one of your talkpages.--Isotope2318:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That was a different thread, if I'm not mistaken. Beyond that, the real issue at hand still has not been addressed - that is, the manner in which TTN is approaching this issue. --Ckatzchatspy18:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I apologise for my earlier comment, made in the heat of the moment, but the manner in which TTN has embarked on this without seeking any sort of consensus has irked me, to put it mildly. I think it's better that I observe rather than participate for a day or two so things can calm down. Chris 4222:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikitruth criticizes Wikipedia for existing. So using that as proof of outside criticism is not quite useful. —Kurykh00:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is going nowhere
I would suggest that this ongoing, lengthy discussion be focused onto two indvidual parts.
For the first part, We have TTN following, in his opinion (and several others) Wikipedia's episode policy. Nothing in Wikipedia's rules goes against anything that he's doing in this sense. He's not violating policy here. Discussions regarding whether or not those edits are meritous ala Wiki's standards ought to be discussed in regards to the first part somewhere away from the ANI noticeboard, as this is a place for incidents that relate to violations of the Wiki rules. A place needs to be found where discussion about this can take place. In other words, ANI isn't a place to discuss content.
The second part (and one, in my opinion, that is seperate from the edits themselves) is in regards to the behavior of the participants involved in this spat. There HAVE been violations of Wiki's rules here, noteably. ANI (as opposed to the other issue) IS the place to discuss this.
What say the editors regarding this? 76.28.138.8319:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. This is getting out of hand here. We need to find two venues to discuss this. The people who feel wronged by his attitude should stay here, or talk to him personally. The former needs a better place. BIGNOLE (Contact me)19:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A proposal
It's obvious, as stated repeatedly above, that this discussion has evolved beyond this page. I propose, therefore:
1) The current program of redirects be suspended, and replaced with templates on the episode articles. A suitable period of time should be allowed for editors to respond and improve the articles. (I originally proposed 60 days, Bignole said 14. Let's call it 30 to appease both parties.) At the end of the 30 day period, articles should be assessed on an individual basis, rather than just deleted en masse.
2) A continued discussion here regarding TTN's methodology. My aim, personally, is not to see TTN censured or blocked. It is to get him/her to understand how the actions taken have affected the community. I'm still not convinced that TTN is seeing this... comments like "We don't need to go by the book." and "There must be a way to just strengthen WP:EPISODE enough to just allow us to nuke these things right away." are disturbing.
3) A proper discussion at a different location - probably WP:EPISODE - to get a proper idea of what community consensus really is. Yes, the guideline exists - but does it truly reflect the current interests.
Hopefully, through this process, we can find a way to accommodate the community as a whole, rather than just having a prolonged battle. Thoughts? --Ckatzchatspy20:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In the interests of moving debate about the virtues (or lack thereof!) of episode pages to a more appropriate forum, I have started a new thread at Wikipedia talk:Television episodes#DISCUSSING THE GUIDELINE. May I encourage all those interested to continue the debate there. May I also suggest that WP:EPISODE is linked from obvious pages (such as WikiProject Television, where it seems to be lacking) so people know it exists. The discussion on this page can therefore return to resolving the dispute about TTN's editing practice. Better still, let everyone agree to cease inflammatory editing, reverting, re-reverting etc until best practice is decided on (ie. both 'sides' cool down). Compromise will not be reached, or productive (two-sided) discussion embarked upon if everyone is busy drawing their battle lines. Gwinva21:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with it too. TNN, please note that your contributions to the encyclopaedia are noted and very much appreciated. There has to be someone who keeps things in line. At the same time, please do not go about bullying other wikipedians (even if you have to quote the same policy every single time).
This is akin to the argument regarding too much trivia and even there, the consensus was (I think) to add a template and allow editors to do something about the articles rather than have it so abruptly deleted. It takes you a minute to redirect those articles but it took days and possibly years for those articles to exist. I know WP:OWN but that still has to count for something. Otherwise, wikipedia would just not exist. Zuracech lordum01:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment—a redirect is NOT the same as a delete. Redirects preserve those thousands upon thousands of hours of hard work, so they aren't being completely erased (nor should they; deletion should generally be a last resort). However, I'm not getting involved in the TV episode debate. Alredy in enough as it is :) — Deckiller02:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And to add my own comment: Don't write it until you can source it. That doesn't mean your "source" is having watched it, that's original research. It means someone independent of the television program and reliable has provided detailed source material on that episode. What? No such material exists? WP:V provides an easy solution to that:
"If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it."
If the article topic is an episode of a TV show, and no reliable, third-party sources exist on that episode (hint: NOT tv.com and IMDb), we shouldn't have an article on it. That means we shouldn't have an article on most individual episodes. It really is that simple. Wikia exists for that type of stuff. SeraphimbladeTalk to me10:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It isn't like the problems with these individual episodes haven't come up before, and this "well maybe the guidelines need to change" arugment is like saying "Maybe Wikipedia shoudn't have to required sources as at all". If your article has been existence for a certain period of time, then the time to expand has lasped. I know articles that are over a year old and nothing has been done with them. The solution, and best option, is to merge them all. BUT, when you find real world content, with third-party reliable sources, then figure out if you need to split them off. Splitting an episode article shouldn't occur just because you have two sentences of verifiable information. Create a little "behind the scenes" section on the "List of episodes" article. Put your "hard work" there. If it gets too large, find the episode with the most information and split that one off. BIGNOLE (Contact me)11:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tend to agree with Seraphimblade. I think I'm impartial in this particular dispute. Although i disagree with Seraphim over what a reliable source is. I've sourced from tv.com and imdb before now. Steve blockTalk12:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unless it's for something easily verifiable by the episode, like who was in it, they aren't considered reliable. Not for films, and not for television shows and they are usually ripped a new one during an FAC if they are included. They are both like Wikipedia, and we wouldn't cite ourselves for something. BIGNOLE (Contact me)12:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I used imdb as reference during the FARC on Superman, and they got through fine there. But yeah, there I only used them to cite brief overviews that could just as easily be sourced in the material itself, the general theme of Smallville, the release date, and release date and cast and director detail for Superman Returns. I just have an aversion to blanket statements which aren't true. :) Steve blockTalk13:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, what it's being referred to is you cannot use IMDb or TV.com to support the inclusions of trivia. You cannot say "the director meant to do this in the episode" and then cite TV.com or IMDb, it wouldn't hold water. They're usually ok if you need to say "Brandon Routh appeared in Superman Returns", or "Shawn Ashmore appeared in Smallville episode 'Leech'", because their cast lists can be easily confirmed anywhere (most easily in the episode or film itself). The "blanket statement" is referring to challengeable information within the article. Who appears in a film isn't "challengeable" because the film itself proves it, there is no interpretation involved, not actual research. Unlike if you were to claim there was motivation to do something, or explain the procedure involved in doing something, which you couldn't find out by simply viewing the episode. BIGNOLE (Contact me)14:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Enough, surely?
I think this debate here has had its day. Those concerned about the nature (or otherwise) of episode articles and who wish to develop strategies for dealing with those that fail guidelines should see Wikipedia talk:Television episodes#DISCUSSING THE GUIDELINE. Those who are concerned about User:TTN's editing should recognise that he/she has had ample opportunity to hear what others think, and to understand that his/her actions have (inadvertently or otherwise) made people angry. Let's assume good faith, and allow TTN to move on. These issues can always be readdressed as/when/if TTN again steps over the line of what constitutes best practice. let's not assume he/she will. Gwinva12:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. Despite the people who've been trying to make sure this stays soley a dispute about content, the CONDUCT in this dispute between a few editors (and a certain admin) has been entirely out of line. It's all well and good to say, "Gosh, let's just forget this dang ole' thing ever happened", but the violations of wikipedia's civility policies have not been addressed. 76.28.138.8319:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fellow anonymous IP, not that I think we should be calling anyone out by any means, could you be more specific? Which admin? Which editors? I think a good deal of those of us who have participated in this discussion have been civil and unless if I overlooked it, I don't think anyone has even called for blocks or anything like that. Again, if I'm missing something, please clarify. In any case, have a great evening! Sincerely, --164.107.222.2322:42, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, like I posted some time ago, A few examples like this, [148] administrative misconduct (admin engages in revert warring [149] then blocks the opposing side[150]), insults[151], and even admissions that some editors are even afraid to confront TTN[152] were not addressed to any extent here- people kept pushing the discussion back to whether or not they approved of TTN's edits, which ANI isn't supposed to be used for at all. 76.28.138.8323:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
BJAODN yet again
Sj(talk·contribs·deleted contribs·logs·filter log·block user·block log) has just restored all BJAODN pages without any form of discussion, other than a remark that "This is ridiculous. The articles should be restored asap", and telling other people to "discuss before wheel warring". Can anyone give me a good reason not to block him for blatant wheel warring, or should this be taken directly to the ArbCom? >Radiant<14:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh leave the man alone. Seriously. Yell at him, don't arbcom him. We've been over-litigious lately. -- Ynot?14:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Litigation has nothing to do with it. If someone lacks the self-control to avoid wheel warring, that casts severe doubts upon his suitability as an administrator. >Radiant<14:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Don't blow it out of proportion. It's one act of wheel-warring, committed 50 times. One act. Compared to years(?) of faithful service! Don't be so quick to decapitate. -- Ynot?14:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We're too keen to start wars of attrition in order to keep or delete things. It's a continual cycle of deletion, DRV, AfD, DRV until people get the result they're after. In this case, it's wheel war after wheel war. ArbCom is too harsh, an enforced forty winks would be fine. Nick14:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just ridiculous. Block or ArbCom, one of the two. Probably ArbCom. Then again, you have my blessings on the block button as well. MoreschiTalk14:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I concur... there is every reason to block for disruption given all the time that has been spent discussing these pages; a unilateral restore on top of the unilateral delete is in no way helpful (and for the record I'm a big fan of BJAODN). I don't know if ARBCOM would even take this case, but that might be what is needed here.--Isotope2314:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever you do, don't waste the ArbCom's time over something as trivial as whether deleted nonsense is visible or invisible. Kusma (talk) 14:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding of why this would go to ARBCOM would be more about an admin engaging in WP:WHEEL while asking other admins not to revert him than the question of whether or not we should have BJAODN.--Isotope2315:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't support a block - he stopped hours ago - it's certainly not protective, at least try disucssing it with him first. Not sure on the merits of ArbCom - possibly. Ryan Postlethwaite14:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Stupid, but not worth over-reacting. The whole festering pile of excrement should of course be nuked, but if people want to make a genuine attempt to fix the less fatuous bits I suppose it's no big deal. I suggest we give people 14 days to fix the GFDL issues and remove any entries which are not fixed after that time, deleting pages which have no remaining fixed entries as empty or under G12. That should satisfy the process wonks and "ZOMG! Evil hu o[u]rless bastards!" objections. Guy (Help!) 14:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely not. GFDL is copyright, we can't throw that to one side because we like it. Where does that stop?--Docg14:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently (enforcement of the GFDL) stops with talk pages archives and templates, among other things, which are technical violations of the GFDL as much as BJAODN was. See the above thread... there's lots of examples of selective enforcement cropping up. Not condoning the wheel warring though, that anyone would waste admin actions on a collection of jokes is... well... not something I'd do. --W.marsh15:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is a legal issue and perhaps the Arbitration Committee with aid from legal counsel would be able to deal with the matter in a much appropriate manner. — Nearly Headless Nick{C}15:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As the above thread pointed out, talk page archives are not a GFDL violation. The GFDL requires attribution and the signature provides that. The GFDL doesn't require that attribution has to be done via the Wikipedia page history. That is simply the only way we have to do it with article content. With talk signatures, we don't need the history as we have the signatures. Also, for subst templates, it is a pain, but the attribution can be reconstructed by using the article history to determine what date the template was subst'd and going to the template history to find the history. The only time attribution would be lost is if a template was deleted after being subst'd. -- JLaTondre15:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Attribution for BJAODN can be found too, but it's also a "pain". Nevertheless I haven't seen anyone really show that the GFDL spells out degree of difficulty in tracking down attribution, so they're all in the same boat. --W.marsh15:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, some (at least) of BJAODN can't be tracked to where it was cut and paste from, some although we know the article the revisions have been deleted. In the latter case admins can perhaps find the attribution, but an average user who wishes to reuse it couldn't (or an author checking compliance). It's a very messy area though (since not everyone needs to be attributed....) --pgk18:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to see some sort of explanation from Sj about this as to how he feels such an action was justified. The fact that the deletions are being discussed extensively at DRV et al, the fact that more people than not want it deleted (at least to my knowledge), and the fact that these were restored despite his knowledge of all of the above troubles me. -Pilotguyhold short15:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is it wheel warring for an admin to revert something once? The whole point of admin actions being reversible is that outrageous actions can be reverted. Jeffrey reverted a second time, which is what I meant by 'wheel warring'. I was supporting cunctator's initial revert (which also seems reasonable to me in such a blatant situation). I certainly won't revert a second time if someone other than J.O.G. thinks these pages should remain deleted while we discuss their status. +sj +22:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely, of course it is. It amazes me that you don't even know what a wheel war is. By your silly definition, it's not a wheel war if admins from two sides step in and each once revert an admin action. We've had that before and everyone involved was either blocked, sanctioned, or desysopped. Stopping wheel warring is about stopping disruption, and it's just as disruptive to have six admin reverts across a page whether it's done by one person or six. --Cyde Weys16:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I said this before on this very page, not 2 days ago. I'll say it again:
Sj has barely edited at all in the last month. This morning, he basically logged in, undeleted ~90 pages, and logged out again. Before doing so, he commented in the ongoing deletion review [153] and accused Jeff Gustafson of disruption [154].
Finally, he has set up what appears to be a to-do list in his userspace (User:Sj/BJAODN) (which links to mailing list argument on the same topic), and a quick glance over BJAODN shows that not all of its subpages have been undeleted yet [157].
All this indicates to me that he was fully aware of the ongoing discussions, decided to ignore those discussions and instead wheel war to undelete these pages, has offered no explanation for all this, and gives no indication that he won't simply continue tonight. >Radiant<16:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if it's a compromised account? If it isn't, blocking is probably a bad idea because from experience any block of an admin except by Arbcom tends to end up with even more AN discussion than would have happened anyway, a short wheel-war, and finally ends up at Arbcom anyway (generally speaking most of these events shouldn't happen, but will do anyway). --ais523 16:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Highly doubt it's compromised. Admin's passwords were made stronger recently. If it was compromised, it wouldn't have just undeleted BJAODN, it would have probably blocked Jimbo and deleted the Main Page. Although his behavior is really suspicious, it's not vandal-like behavior. — Moeε17:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, Sj made a very cogent argument why they should be undeleted here ("Restore. The idea that BJAODN articles should be deleted on GFDL grounds is ridiculous. We quote, cut and paste materials from sources and across Wikipedia articles all the time without elaborate editor tracking....") I would take that as explanation. -- phoebe/(talk) 20:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Don't block, not least because you would also want to block User:The Cunctator and User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson, who have also wheel warred over this. Take it to ArbCom if you feel it's that important. I know that undoing another admin's actions is considered by some to be the ultimate crime, but it's really not an inappropriate response to something as catastrophically lame as deleting BJAODN. — Matt Crypto17:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, his actions are getting praised on the mailing list and elsewhere; there is certainly no consensus that this is a bad thing. Many people wanted the pages undeleted; Sj was being no bolder than Jeffrey Gustafson was in the first place. See: BJAODN timeline -- he is aware of the issues involved, probably better than many people commenting. -- phoebe/(talk) 19:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is certainly a consensus that wheel warring is a bad thing. That people happen to like the result does not excuse wheel warring. -Amarkovmoo!00:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
a quick note
A lot of admins have been making claims about BJAODN content that is hard to assess without access to the original pages and edit history. Please leave them publicly viewable to facilitate a better discussion.
I'm not sure myself whether some of the pages should stay or go -- but some of the pages that were deleted in Jeffrey's swath were clearly a) not copyvios, b) placed in good faith, c) actively preserved by numerous editors, and d) edited dozens of times. In all, he deleted around 10,000 edits by others, which is a pretty ridiculous thing to do without broad discussion. Since half of the follow up discussion took the form of "might have been a bad idea, but is gone now, so let it be gone", or "this cruft should have been deleted anyway", it was apparently difficult to have even a simple evaluation of the validity of deletion of 'GFDL' grounds -- something that is needed. I don't think most people engaging the ensuing debates understood how much effort have gone into these pages. We may decide that this effort was misguided and should no longer be preserved, but I hope that will b ethrough a reasoned communit ydecision, and not in haste.
The current DRV discussion doesn't seem general enough to link to from all the BJAODN pages, but it seems like the right thing to do to put some sort of tag on top of the pages letting readers know there is a discussion going on, to get everyone together to discuss in one place. It seems that the group discussion the deletions is different from the group discussing them a month ago, and different again from the group that contributes to the BJAODN files. +sj +22:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And how does that justify you ignoring all those group discussions and instead immediately implementing the version you prefer? >Radiant<08:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I read those discussions carefully. There wasn't much content there; a number of discussions were shut down with speedy closures; and there is no focused discussion at the moment (even this thread is all over the place and hardly counts). I did try to avoid the Wrong Version, but couldn't find a magnetic monopole or a cat with buttered bread strapped to its back... +sj +
Nice wikilawyering, but the point is that you ignore several ongoing discussions. And wheel warring, of course. Do you know the meaning of the word "consensensus"? >Radiant<12:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
GFDL misconceptions
There seem to be a few misconceptions about GFDL floating around. We technically contravene the GFDL every time we perform a cut-and-paste merge (leaving a redirect in place) without carefully merging the edit histories. Technically, the presence of the redirect, plus adequate edit summaries saying on the one page where the removed material is being moved to, and on the the other page saying where the incoming material has come from, is enough for someone to trace the edit history and comply with the GFDL. But in practice the chain of evidence sometimes gets broken. Also, GFDL is contravened with pages in the Category namespace, as the content explaining the category pages (which include many of my edits released under the GFDL) are cut and pasted when categories are renamed. Also, redirects from merges should be labelled as such, to avoid them being deleted and losing the edit history of the text, but this rarely happens in practice, and sometimes redirects are redirected again, or turned into new articles or disambiguation pages. See Talk:Ægyptus and Talk:Ptolemaic Egypt for examples. A very large chunk of the edit histories for the text at those articles is at History of Greek and Roman Egypt. If that ever gets deleted without separate preservation of the edit history, then the GFDL is most definitely being contravened. In my opinion, as long as the edit summaries for additions to BJAODN stated where the material was cut and pasted from, then that is sufficient to comply with the GFDL in as much as similar practice in article namespace. Carcharoth17:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
GFDL is easily contravened in massively collaborative works. Any time you remove something from the 'History' section you may be courting trouble; and what can be considered suc ha section is debatable for large documents. just two of many parts of the license that should be fixed if it is to be suitable for such massively collaborative work. +sj +22:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Funny thing about the GFDL, is that a few years ago I had a discussion with one of the staff members of the FSF about Wikipedia's use of it, & while he mentioned that Wikipedia has been out of compliance with the GFDL, it wasn't for cut-n-paste or breaking the chain of attributions. No, WP was out of compliance for a fairly technical reason, due to how the Wikimedia software does its versioning: we have multiple pages with the same name! But since Wikipedia is the largest collection of GFDL materials, the FSF wasn't that worried about the lack of compliance. And if they noticed a technicality like that, I'd think they would have also noticed our problem with attributions -- so it truly an "obvious" violation? BTW, has anyone queried the FSF for their opinion on this matter? -- llywrch20:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's not Wikipedia licensing the stuff, it's the contributors, and Wikipedia doesn't get to choose the interpretation. That said (and I'm probably more of a GFDL zealot than most people around here) I think Sj's note is reasonable and I don't personally find this stuff to be a problem. I'm a lot more concerned about various people's efforts to suck out Wikipedia content and assert their own GFDL-incompatible licenses over it. 75.62.6.23706:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"I'll continue to delete it until I get blocked or desysopped"[158]. Now that the image is on commons and he's no longer capable of deleting it, he seems to be gearing up for an edit war instead.
His objection to this image seems perfectly reasonable to me as does his removing it from Lolicon (not commenting either way on the diff comment though), SqueakBox00:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell, it's a sexualized drawing of a Wikipedia mascot as a child. I think dispute resolution is going to return it as grossly inappropriate, no matter what. --Haemo00:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo has said "We will not let our agenda be set by pedophile trolls." There is no reason to insist that the Foundation's tradmarked puzzle pieces, associated with Wikipi-tan, be included in softcore kiddie cheescake pics except to have some fun at the expense of ptentially harming or embarrassing the Foundation. Which is trollery. So do your worst. Herostratus
It's relevant to the article, encyclopedic, and free content. Hardly "trollery". Your confrontational attitude isn't helping anything either. --tjstrftalk00:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In your opinion but not that of others. I dont see how this image helps the article or the encyclopedia though I can easily see how it hinders the project, SqueakBox00:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, deliberately linking an entity like Wikipedia to pedophilia is seriously inappropriate. We don't have pictures of Aunt Jemima in cheesecake poses on pornography, so why would we accept this? --Haemo00:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
EC'd twice and I will comment on the comment in question, it isnt PA and I found it useful as I believe did others at PAW, SqueakBox00:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so here's the thing... If these pictures are presented specifically for the purpose of illustrating sexual depictions of minors... then doesn't that make it the sexual depiction of a minor? I mean... it's a binary choice here. Either it is a sexual depiction of a child, in which case it should be removed. Or it isn't, in which case it doesn't belong in the article, and should be removed. Am I missing something obvious here? Bladestorm00:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the point is that an article on lolicon should clearly illustrate what it is - "lolicon" does not incorporate all images of child which some people could consider sexual. The Sears catalog would qualify in such a case. --Haemo00:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's not sexualized; actually, it's about as modest as girls' swimming suits get. But I think a lot of people would have problems with using any picture of Wikipe-tan on the Lolicon article just because it's sort of...well...libelous. Against ourselves. --Masamage♫00:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've not commented on this subject or article or clip...I don't see Herostratus's as doing anything wrong here. The objection to the use of the image is reasonable and clearly explained. The image adds nothing to articles and is a gross and sexually inappropriate image. I commend Herostratus's diligence. I view the image as promoting pedophilia...not ok here. No image would be best DPetersontalk00:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sexual acts with children are still illegal, and showing a Wikipedia mascot engaged in them associates the encyclopedia with pedophilia - that's all I said here. I don't know why you assumed I was saying the material on the page was illegal. --Haemo02:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For posterity: Exploding Boy here is presumably talking about the beachwear picture that used to be at the right. --Masamage♫01:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's sexual, and I'm not even attracted to little girls. I mean, it was drawn specifically for the purpose of illustrating what Lolicon looks like; that should tell you something. --Masamage♫01:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
People were saying that there is no good reason to illustrate "sexual artwork involving childlike female characters." that also "refers to an attraction to girls below the age of consent." Not everything needs a picture. --MichaelLinnear01:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With Michael, because that's the sort of thing I was getting at. With SqueakBox because it's turned into too open-ended an opinion-faced. Now that I'm faced with it, though, I'm also perfectly okay with it staying open in case anything useful gets decided. --Masamage♫01:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's a difference between taking people's concerns seriously and arriving at the same conclusion. This is a silly argument between silly people and should have been ended a long time ago according to WP:NOT#CENSOR. Unless a solid argument can be made showing that the image in question is illegal, there's no reason for it to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.207.8.30 (talk • contribs)
That's all sound reasoning. But I was responding to his demeaning expression of amusement at us little ants who disagree with him. --Masamage♫01:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When you post the diff where I said "that image should be removed," I will say your accusation is justified. Meanwhile, I'll inform you that I have no intention of voting either way on the subject. I find it distasteful, and I restated other people's concerns (clearly marked as such); I never said it has no place here. --Masamage♫02:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(deindent) You can't just appeal to "Wikipedia is not censored" for all your concerns. The problem is not that this is being removed out of any concern over the material (the lolipop one is worse), but rather that it is:
Associating the Encyclopedia with pedophilia, something which is has never condoned, and is inappropriate.
Does not properly illustrate the article in question.
Given that there are many images which could do (2) properly, without doing (1), there is no compelling reason to keep this image in the article. --Haemo02:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
While it may be the case that not everything needs a picture it would be odd to have an art style without one. At present .ast .ca .de .es .fr .zh-classical .ko .id .it .no .pl .ru .sv and.zh all have pics.Geni01:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I was referring to the beachwear image. It's not at all sexual. This image, however, does strike me as sexual. Ditto the one with the lollipop and the bikini. Exploding Boy01:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The image which was in this section, and which some prudish editors have imprudently removed, brings up an important point. Does Wikipedia have a guideline for what's classic art, and what's likely to provoke reactions of 'It's sexual!'. I realize that since WP is NOT censored, such a concern can be dismissed by invoking that policy, but I'd rather not do so. I'd rather either find a proper reference for the editors who insist on 'desexualizing' an article about sexualization of minors in the name of 'think of the children'. Because Wikipedia's policy is 'we aren't censored', we can examine these controversial topics with greater depth and freedom, but having a guideline which again reinforces that might be significantly useful. Finally, the image, which I will next restore, was from the home of a Pope. ThuranX01:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes while it is undoubtedly a time-honored piece of art, of the like only seen in the palaces of emperors, there is no good reason for it to be here, showing two boys "enjoying" each other on a discussion page that is unrelated. If you got to the relevant page you have an expectation of possibly seeing "noncensored" content, if you go to an administrative page you shouldn't. --MichaelLinnear02:30, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(ECx2)Excuse you. I re-added once, someone else converted to a click on link, and I addressed the issue at hand. Focus on the topic I brought up, instead of throwing POINT out. that's as craptastic as throwing AGF out left and right. ThuranX02:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can we close this? The image is not appropriate and every article doesn't even need an image...so lets all get back to improving articles, and let this go...It is not serving any purpose at this point. Close the incident now!! DPetersontalk02:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The swimsuit image was inappropriate because it was Wikipe-tan. I would have no objection to a similarly non-sexual image that wasn't her. Exploding Boy02:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(ECx2)I'm ok with not using the WIki-logos in inappropriate ways, but since WIki isnt' censored, how is that determined? IF the puzzle logo is the foundatiosn, and a freely held copyrighted logo, then that part is open and shut, remove it and replace. but the larger question of a clear guideline about judgemetns for inclusion of images is still needed, as it's clear that Herostratus' motivations weren't based in the logo issue but the sexualization of the girl that he percieved, and thus he ignored the WP:NOT#CENSOR to achieve HIS version of a Bowdlerized wikipedia. ThuranX02:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Then given the low numbers of such pictures under a free license we are not in a position to object to the suject matter.Geni02:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Though I could care less about the image, I must point out that "not being censored" does have anything to do with allowing derogatory images. There is a reason it is preferable to use an animated image of fellatio instead of a "free" image of someone actually performing it. It's called taste, and this IS an encyclopedia. If the rules state that Wiki shall not be associated in a deragatory manner by someone's drawing then so be it. I don't know, but it bothers me that people will cite "no censor" when it has nothing to do with censoring. Censoring would be removing the word "fuck" out of an article because you don't like it. From what I gather about this Admin's actions, he/she believes this has to do with Wikipedia's image in society. It isn't about censoring, it's about not defaming a name. One wouldn't create some Lolicon of Cameron Diaz, and place that on her page, or any page. It's libelous. So, this isn't about censorship, this is about determing if the image itself causes problems. BIGNOLE (Contact me)02:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the ban on "derogatory" images, especially when used in the context of an article? If there is such a ban, it is contrary to WP:NOT#CENSURE. Unless, that is, you are implying that there are somethings that should be censured regardless of the policy. If so, then we have a case of systemic bias. --Farix (Talk) 02:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Psst: The word is 'censor'. 'Censure' means something totally different, and in fact Wikipedia is censured on a daily basis. --Masamage♫02:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I never said there was a "ban" on anything, and libelous images would need to be removed if it is determined that that was what they are. It has nothing to do with censoring. From Hero's comments, it doesn't appear to be something that is being removed because it is "offensive" to look at (which is the idea behind no censorship), but because "we do not include elements from the Foundation logos in kiddie cheescake pics". From his comments, it appears to be more of a copyright problem of authenticity, and has nothing to do with censorship. I think another statement he made, "For purely political reasons if nothing else, we cannot have kiddie cheescake pictures which include elements of the Wikipedia logo," shows it has nothing to do with censorship. BIGNOLE (Contact me)
It's my understanding that those puzzle pieces are not trademarked or copyrighted by the foundation. It's simply reminiscent of the Wikipedia logo. --tjstrftalk10:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unless I miss my guess: the globe is copyrighted; the puzzle pieces are trademarks. That is, they are de facto marks of Wikipedia, and I don't think they have to be registered to be so. Herostratus10:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would assume that would work. To Neil, if they take elements that are clearly someone elses then it is a violation. If someone made BELL their logo, but tilted the "E" like DELL does, that would infringement on copyrights. So, using a globe that was clearly Wiki's, or puzzle pieces would infringe on the trademarks of the Foundation. BIGNOLE (Contact me)12:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A deletion request is being debated there: [159]. However, some there view Commons as a separate entity altogether, not governed by Wikipedia concerns. Arguments as to the appropriateness of the use of Wikipe-tan and the Wikipedia symbols are being dismissed as irrelevant to Commons, i.e., "You American's are a bunch of "coincer du cul". ETA: and that debate is now closed. The image stays in Commons. -Jmh12319:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The image should be deleted and Hero's actions were appropriate. The image has no place here as it is inappropriate (promoting the sexualization of children and sexual activity toward children...also known as Pedophilia). DPetersontalk23:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you should take this up with my local newspaper, then? The image is less sexualized than some of the swimsuit ads that arrived with last Sunday's paper. --Carnildo00:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Its not how much material she is wearing its the FEAR IN HER EYES thats the inappropriate sexualisation of wikipedia's mascot. Hypnosadist01:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This? [160] I probably would take that up with the newspaper if there were such a photo. At any rate, my objection, and that of many, is associating the image with Wikipedia's mascot. -Jmh12301:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If the FEAR IN HER EYES is getting to you, then why not choose to use the other version of the image, where the character has more of a "come-hither" look and has her mouth closed. --129.241.214.4113:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, as the person who is completely uninterested in all of this I'd like to input a few "details" in referance to commons. I was the person initiating the COM:DEL over GFDL concerns on commons. Commons is not an encyclopedia and is a seperate project from Wikipedia. Commons is simply put a free image repository. The images in question will unlikely get deleted so long as they are freely licensed and are within the project scope of commons. Although it isn't a written rule, commons is not censored. Controversial and even illegal media are available on commons such as Nazi flags (banned in Germany) and etc. -- Catchi? 03:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Fine just as long as "commons" is going to do all the work to fix the damage to our reputation that keeping this deflamitory illegal child porn is going to do. It seems that commons is intent on keeping this image, just understand the risks and accept without complaint the inevitable backlash this will cause. Good luck. Hypnosadist04:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Illegal how? It's not a real human being! It's ink on paper, or in this case pixels on a screen. She's not even naked or engaging in any sexual acts. All this "OMG it's illegal child pornography" talk is just a lot of fear mongering because you don't like it and hope the people in charge are gullible enough to believe it. Fiction is not reality. We don't go around arresting producers, directors, actors, and writers for all the illegal activities we see them creating in movies and TV shows do we? I also seriously doubt that people flock to Wikipedia on a daily basis just to scour the site looking for signs that we endorse this, that, or the other. --Billdorr04:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry, "Wikipedias/Wikimedias reputation" is not a deletion criteria. -- Catchi? 05:22, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
"I also seriously doubt that people flock to Wikipedia on a daily basis just to scour the site looking for signs that we endorse this, that, or the other." Pedophiles are purged and banned every once in a while, due to them obviously "bringing disrepute upon Wikipedia", appearance of a tacit endorsements are and should be a concern of an encyclopedia. --MichaelLinnear05:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Try checking out Lolicon to find out where this is illegal and which countries are soon to ban this loop hole in child porn laws. "Fiction is not reality" but fiction can inspire reality which is why some countries have already got laws against this and more soon will have. " I also seriously doubt that people flock to Wikipedia on a daily basis just to scour the site looking for signs that we endorse this, that, or the other." they do starting with wikitruth and many more beside. Hypnosadist05:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As requested, I've checked Lolicon. The image in question is not illegal in any of the countries listed. Of the countries not listed, it's probably illegal in Iran, and possibly a few other Islamic countries that greatly restrict the amount of skin a female can show. --Carnildo06:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure why we're still discussing this here - why not use the talk page for the article in question? --Haemo06:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No comment on the whole "animated child porn" thing, but I totally agree with the not-associating-this-with-Wikipedia thing. Other Wikipe-tan images are.. cute.. but this is.. slutty, dirty. Remove the puzzle pieces from her hair and you'll fix half the problem people seem to be having (since, other than that, she doesn't look at all like Wikipe-tan). -- Ned Scott06:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I, as a person, feel very squeamish about Wikipe-tan looking like that. However, as a professional, I see no problem with the image. I very much reccomend that it be recoloured and/or the puzzle pieces are removed from the hair to dissociate it from Wikipe-tan, however this is just my personal opinion. The image in its own respect offends nobody, it's the social construct of "OMG CP, GTFO NAO" that offends people. - 2-1615:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well i'm a mental health professional and i do see problem with this image being associated with wikipe-tan, and hence this project. If by this random string of letters "OMG CP, GTFO NAO" you mean that childporn should not be delt with, that will be why america is joint top with russia with most Mb's of child porn per person on the net. Hypnosadist17:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The debate has now reclosed with the Commons is not censored/we don't care if it harms wikipedia arguement prevailing. Good luck wikipedia.Hypnosadist18:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FSchan was fine. Wikipe-tan is associated with Wikipedia and really isn't. I'll be fine with the image if the puzzle pieces are removed, though. Will(talk)19:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In response to the recent controversies with respect to micronations and cleanup or removal of articles about them, Gene Poole has now set up a wikiproject on the topic. Of course there's nothing wrong with that per se - but the first act of this project is to try and enforce certain naming conventions and infoboxes through voting on them. That sounds like a bad idea; I'd appreciate it if some other people would take a look as well. Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Micronations rather than here.>Radiant<11:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How the heck is this AN/I material? There's no abuse - either the wikiproject has enough members to convince people that it can legitimately consensusly (and polls can be part of consensus building) set Micronation article expected standards, or it does not... Georgewilliamherbert17:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wassermann(talk·contribs·deleted contribs·page moves·block user·block log) (previous name: WassermannNYC(talk·contribs·deleted contribs·page moves·block user·block log) has a persistent history of incivility and personal attacks. He was reported on AN/I several times[162][163] and was blocked twice (see also under his previous user name), including his current extended block.[164][165][166]
His main and persistent problem is a repeated pattern of calling other editors 'vandals' or 'censors', or their edits 'idiotic', often in capitalized edit summaries, if they disagree with and undo his own edits.
He has also set up a special section in his user page proclaiming 'censorship' by various WP admins, and using a derogatory term 'adminisTraitors' in an image caption.
Before his last 1 week block expired, he started editing from an IP address (which he openly admits). I received a complaint about this[167] and extended his block indefinitely, pending clarification of his actions. I then posted on his Talk page,[168] asking him to clarify that he understands what actual 'vandalism' is according to WP:VAN (an intent to harm WP), and that he should not accuse established editors with 'vandalism' when he disagrees with their edits. He keeps claiming that he has no way of reading other editors' minds so he does not know their intent, and since their edits seem to harm WP in his mind, they are vandals. He also keeps insisting that using an anon IP to edit WP while blocked is OK, since he was not editing the same topics or doing anything contentious. My main problem with this editor is that he seems to steadfastly refuse to accept any responsibility for his actions. His behavior pattern resumed shortly after his previous block, and at this point it seems virtually certain to resume if he were unblocked, as he simply refuses to understand and accept our rules. His latest response indicates he would like a wider scrutiny of his block, so I am presenting the case here for review. Thanks, Crum37514:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I personally don't see any reason to overturn the block. He appears to be in possession of The Truth, and convinced that policies/guidelines like WP:IAR, WP:VANDAL, and WP:BOLD mean he can do what he likes. He's apparently been given quite a bit of rope, and made use of it. As far as the IP, if an indef-blocked user starts editing quietly and law-abidingly with a new account or IP we may never even know, nor care... but if an IP is clearly being used to circumvent a block, as in this case, then blocking the IP is appropriate. My 2 cents. MastCellTalk15:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll just briefly repeat what I wrote to Crum375: namely that while the original block seems to me justified and Crum375's assessment of the problem by and large spot-on, this comment, together with the fact that he so casually identified himself on Crum375's talk page, tends to suggest that the user was merely cluelessly editing from an anon-ip while blocked, as opposed to trying to circumvent policy. The policy, on the other hand, appears to require that the user be evading the block or ban, not merely violating it ignorantly -- i.e. actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. Isn't there a difference, in other words, between violating the policy ignorantly -- which might merit a warning to be followed by a block extension if the action were repeated -- and deliberately evading the policy, which would merit restarting/extending the block?
And while I appreciate the need to make sure the user understands the relevant policies so that if/when the block is lifted he doesn't simply resume the pattern of incivility, requiring him to write a self-criticism seems a little Maoist for my taste.
Given User:Wassermann's repeated pattern of misconduct, as shown in the AN/I reports leading to the blocks, and given my communication with him on his Talk page, I have a strong sense that he does not fully understand our policies. Specifically it seems to me he is confused about WP:VAN and is also unclear about WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and others. Since he resumed his old behavior pattern shortly after his previous unblocking, I would like to be sure that he fully and completely understands these relevant policies before being unblocked this time. This is why I would like him to explain in his own words (not just links to policy pages) what those policies mean. I don't expect him to criticize himself — I do expect him to clarify to all of us his understanding of the policies (which he clearly misinterprets above on his Talk page) so that we can all be sure he won't violate them again. Crum37519:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
User:MastCell -- I don't wan't to use an IP address or start a new account to try and "circumvent a block" -- I stated on my talk page many times that I was not aware that using an IP address to edit while being blocked would lead to further blockage of my account. In any case, after reviewing the material on Wikipedia:Blocking policy it seems that the extension of my block was clearly an error...it states: "An administrator may reset the block of a user who intentionally evades a block, and may extend the duration of the block if the user engages in further blockable behaviour while evading the block..." [169]. To be clear, I did not at any time "engage in further blockable behavior while evading the block," nor did I "intentionally evade a block." I wasn't evading a block because I try to do everything here out in the open (hence my sometimes too vocal edit summaries). I did not engage in vandalism, personal attacks, edit wars, or anything else of the sort while using the IP address (no "blockable behavior"), I was simply getting on with the work of building this encyclopedia. It also states that the block may be RESET...it does not say that a simple one week block can be extended forever, only that it will be "reset" (presumably at whatever it was before; and in my case nearly another week has already been tacked on).
Wassermann (talk · contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (previous name: WassermannNYC (talk · contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has a persistent history of incivility and personal attacks. He was reported on AN/I several times[188][189] and was blocked twice (see also under his previous user name), including his current extended block.[190][191][192] His main and persistent problem is a repeated pattern of calling other editors 'vandals' or 'censors', or their edits 'idiotic', often in capitalized edit summaries, if they disagree with and undo his own edits.
I wish that you would have left a message on my userpage so that I would have been able able to respond to this, but I'm glad that I noticed it and am able to defend myself by responding. Thanks for bringing this matter to more neutral ground. During the time that I have been blocked I have had the time to read the main policies and rules of Wikipedia, and I can now say that I understand them fully (please remember that I am still a fairly new user). I have also added some key links to Wikipedia's policies/rules to my talk page in the hopes of constantly reminding myself of their importance. I would also like to point out that blocks apply to "gross incivility" [170], and compared to many of the users around here I feel that my uncivil edit summaries have been relatively tame, hugely exaggerated, and oftentimes taken out of context. My violations of WP:CIVIL were more of the "petty" sort rather than the "serious" kind [171], and "petty" offenses hardly warrant a permanent block.
He has also set up a special section in his user page proclaiming 'censorship' by various WP admins, and using a derogatory term 'adminisTraitors' in an image caption.
Due to these issues, my userpage has now been redesigned (just like I said that I would do). If you didn't notice, that link to which you refer was to the Wiki-humor article dealing with so called "Rouge admins"; it was all in the spirit of jest. I still maintain that Wikipedia still has a bit of a problem in terms of censorship in some areas, but only in certain cases. I now understand that these issues must be discussed in a civil manner instead of getting heated up about things, edit warring, using potentially harsh words, and so forth. I am prepared to avoid all of that henceforth.
Before his last 1 week block expired, he started editing from an IP address (which he openly admits). I received a complaint about this[193] and extended his block indefinitely, pending clarification of his actions. I then posted on his Talk page,[194] asking him to clarify that he understands what actual 'vandalism' is according to WP:VAN (an intent to harm WP), and that he should not accuse established editors with 'vandalism' when he disagrees with their edits. He keeps claiming that he has no way of reading other editors' minds so he does not know their intent, and since their edits seem to harm WP in his mind, they are vandals. He also keeps insisting that using an anon IP to edit WP while blocked is OK, since he was not editing the same topics or doing anything contentious.
As I've stated many times on my talk page, I wasn't aware that constructively, positively, and openly editing Wikipedia from an IP address would lead to me being blocked for additional time (much less permanently!), because otherwise I would have obviously avoided it. I now fully understand WP:VAN and have stated repeatedly that I will tone down my edit summaries (no more use of capital letters, no potentially inflammatory statements). I also understand who is and who is not a vandal, and that personal attacks are unacceptable. Also, isn't there a "3 block rule" or "3 strikes rule" when it comes to indefinite blocking, just like the "3 revert rule" that is currently in place? The severity with which my very minor/petty offenses are being handled seem awfully harsh, especially since I have seen much worse behavior on Wikipedia pass unnoticed or even rewarded with higher positions. Please remember: this is the encyclopedia that ANYONE can edit, and permanent bans do not benefit anyone or anything. I feel that, despite a few slip ups here and there, my many edits to Wikipedia have been entirely constructive and have added much to the project as a whole. It would be a mistake to block me entirely from editing.
My main problem with this editor is that he seems to steadfastly refuse to accept any responsibility for his actions. His behavior pattern resumed shortly after his previous block, and at this point it seems virtually certain to resume if he were unblocked, as he simply refuses to understand and accept our rules. His latest response indicates he would like a wider scrutiny of his block, so I am presenting the case here for review.
I accept any and all responsibility for my past actions, I would also like to personally apologize to any editors that I may have personally offended with my actions (especially Jayjg, since he is without a doubt a very good editor all around). I understand the errors of my past ways, and I stand ready to reform my editing habits. I will not resume past behavior when I am unblocked, you can be sure of that. I would like to point out that this behavior on my part has not been persistent as you claim, but only sporadic and occasional. I'd again like to stress that the constant reversion/deletion of valid information and categories tends to grind on my nerves a bit (because I have to constantly waste time correcting it), and this prevents me from moving on to new articles because I must always go back and revert the removal of valid information (this is very annoying for all involved, and it's easy to get a bit flustered). I fully understand and accept the rules, especially those dealing with civility. Thank you all for your time, and I trust that after a careful examination of the facts that you all will treat me a more reasonably, fairly, and justly than I have been treated in the last week and a half.
Really uninvolved user comment: Might I suggest that you place a period after that last bit "Thank you all for your time." and delete the rest, along with my comment. R. Baley11:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Western Sahara articles I would like some assistance; this editor is disrupting Wikipedia by insisting that a particular issue is POV without resorting to talk or mediation. For instance, he insists on changing a flag template to include a map, thereby breaking its functionality. If you see his edits, he is doing a similar thing on several templates, breaking their functions and creating redundancies in articles. I would be happy to discuss the issue at the appropriate venue with this editor (i.e. Talk:Flag of Western Sahara, and consider mediation/arbitration, but all these template edits are basically a proxy for this one dispute as best as I can tell. Please assist. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M18:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Juiced Lemon has done just the right thing. Western Sahara is a disputed territory that the UN is yet to solve the issue. Actually it is arranging for direct negotiations between the conflict parties: Morocco and the Polisario Front. What Koavf has been doing as a fervent militant activist for the Polisario, is to anticipate the result of the conflict and use the flag of one of the parties (guess which) to the conflict as the official Western Sahara flag, whereas WS has no flag as a disputed territory. Therefore, WS should not have a flag template, while the SADR, the government-in-exile of the Polisario has one, and can be used in the SADR articles, but not in Western Sahara articles. The French Wikipedia for example uses exactly the map outline that Juiced Lemon has been using here. So, Koavf's complains are baseless. Needless to remind that Koavf has been so disruptive about the Western Sahara articles that he was indefinitely blocked for more than a half year. He was allowed to edit again as a gesture of goodwill from the community, and here we are again after just one day from being unblocked.--A Jalil19:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The changes I have made don't break any functionality. Western Sahara is a disputed territory. The so-called Flag of Western Sahara is in reality the flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, and it symbolizes the opposition to occcupation of Western Sahara by Morocco. Any use of this flag in association with Western Sahara have an obvious political meaning.
This is not the place for this These arguments belong somewhere else (e.g. Talk:Flag of Western Sahara); the germane issue is the persistent blind reversion and template-breaking and controversial edits on articles with POV tags, etc. I tried to be conciliatory, but you didn't seem interested in listening or discussion, so I've asked for someone else's intervention to mediate, arbitrate, or whatever is needed. One thing that we can't continue doing is changing flag templates to maps so that we have abominations like this and this. Again, to reiterate: you're breaking the template's functionality. Lastly, could you please not use inflammatory language like "fervent militant activist," even if you think it's true? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M03:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
NPOV is not abomination. Let me have a different opinion.
Can i ask you about one thing Justin? Do you know that the ANI is not the appropriate place to sort out edit conflicts? You are already discussing this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting where many admins and the project contributors have explained to you why you are not correct. So what do you want exactly from admins to do for you? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®15:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am having problems with Makalp (talk·contribs). This user is in a constant state of edit war and prefers to carry out discussions in the edit summary (which never actually say what the user is doing). What is more, the user seems to focus on the removal of Armenian or Kurdish comments from articles, stating that they are biased, without realising that bias can work both ways. In the end, this user just feels they have the right to assert their own opinion on articles without discussing or working with others. I have been warred against by this user on various articles — Başkale (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Diyarbakır (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Muş Province (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) lately. I am too involved with the articles to use my admin powers. — Gareth Hughes18:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
He has a long history of doing that, usually with misleading edit summaries ("typos", "corrections", "cleanup" etc).--Ploutarchos18:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid in many instances, the Armenians, Greeks and Kurds are using the Wikipedia articles to spread their propaganda, which are sometimes true but often times distorted and exaggerated according to their own nationalistic views; especially turning a blind eye on the Turkish casualties in such conflicts.
It is as if Wikipedia is some sort of a consolation tool for settling the scores for the losers' side.
Since it is a part of human psychology to side with the "underdog", such "blind eyes" are often seen as justifyable by editors from a third party point-of-view, who, often times, have no idea on the details and realities of such issues.
And when you try to check (balance) such ultranationalist exaggerations, you are accused of being an ultranationalist yourself, as if you are trying to "hide a truth".
As a Turk who contributes to articles regarding Byzantine architecture, Varlık Vergisi, etc, you can be sure that I'm not a blind ultranationalist. I'm only keen on preserving a "balance of truth", and am usually aware of a "supporting the underdog syndrome" whenever I diagnose one.
This user in a revert war on these articles. He had 3RR in 21 hors at Başkale article. He tries only to push his political material to the articles. He tries to add just "Armenian Genocide" to the Turkish cities/towns/places. When we look to his edits (mainly just a rv) include 4-5 words which two of them "Armenian Genocide" with a false reference.
As everybody can see this reference (is an Armenian sided reference) never include word "Genocide"
Reference states; "at 1915 some hundreds Armenians massacred". At 1915 Başkale was under occupation of Armenians for three years.(Exact dates is given in Başkale article), so also "massacre" allegation is not valid in atleast Başkale case.
Here my edits at Başkale article. I added many material to the article, including history section. I added there as first time, Armenian history, Kurdish etnicity with population numbers and 80% language percantage.Whose edits are nationalist&fanatic, me or Gareth Hughes
Most importantly, User:Garzo / Garet Hughes, is an admin. This makes all the case much worst.
As a past involved party, I am less than neutral on the matter. I am here because I was invited to comment on my talk page. I found my dealings with User:Garzo (Gareth Hughes) on Diyarbakir article to be somewhat unpleasant. Garzo reverted all my edits in one gulp including stuff like copyedits and {{fact}} taggings. Even when pointed out official policy (WP:V) that unsourced and hopelessly biased material need to be removed, user restored the material and later even protected the page. He further even stated that Wikipedia policies and guidelines should not be used as weapons[172]. I expect editors and especially administrators to have a basic understanding of our core policies such as WP:V. Either due to stress or not, Garzo didn't quite demonstrate this. Having said all this, I feel neither Garzo nor Makalp is a threat to the project. I feel both Makalp and Garzo need to cool it. They have been arguing over many things for quite some time and would greatly benefit by doing something unrelated for a change. It is a big wiki and there are plenty of articles users can edit without disagreeing each other. -- Catchi? 22:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Neither coolcat nor Vlavius's words here can be taken seriously, summoned up as magicians to cover for Makalps vandalous edits. Removing sourced information, failing to talk about it, and ignoring other users. threatening them and mistreating them. (I can cite evidence if asked). The person on trial here is not the Admin Garzo, but the vandal Makalp. He wastes others time who have to revert his vandalous edits throughout, Wiki - I kindly ask for admin to do something to stop this vandal.Hetoum I01:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why should we take you seriously? ANB/I is not a court for trial. If this were a case of vandalism it wouldn't be on ANB/I. In no way should my comments be seen as an endorsement of Makalp's edits. -- Catchi? 03:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
If you are not being summoned like a little magician or troll by Moostapha Akalp to cover for him, I dont know what you are doing here? Why should we take you seriously? The admin is not on trial here, Makalp is. Why are we talking about Diyarbakir? Is this about Diyarbakir? If the Admin is abuse report him! Better yet, why was he allowed to become admin in the first place if he was abusive. If you think you are better than this admin, why aren't you an Admin? Makalp makes it so hard for editors to work by removing sourced info and vandalizing. Something must be done!Hetoum I05:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can someone do something about this guy. I'm loosing my patience, all of my time is being spent on reverting his vandalism. He made 0 edits on any of the articles he edited. He's revert warrring on all of them. He just asked all of the Turkish editors to come to his rescue. Just take a look at his edit summaries and check what the actual edit is. One example is Başkale article where his edit summary was "Dont remove sourced events" but in realty he was the one removing the sourced info from the article. Something needs to be done and done quickly. VartanM06:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nice to see that you are expressing "patience" her first time. You are spending your time to push "genocide" expression, as much as possible article, nothing more. Why are you and Hetoum I in so hurry? Everybody can see what is going on Başkale and other articles (if their histories couldnt be deleted). You are trying to make all things(-accusation-) upside down. "his rescue"; whose rescue you mean? Let see. Pleasee keep away from Rv warrings, personal attacks and baseless accusations. Hope to see in wiki with positive contributions.Regards.Must.T C08:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Dmc here. I do not see vandalism or blockable offence here. Makalp is a highly respected member of Turkish community of wikiusers. He is a productive editor but sometimes prone to edit wars. I have investigated the history of the Başkale article. There is an edit war here over inclusion of a massacre of Armenians in the city. The information is based on a single primary source of 1916: an electronic version of the report of the British secretary of State. We usually avoid primary documents as sources, while some exceptions are allowed. To make the document even more suspicious the electronic document is on a personal page of some student or faculty of Brigham Young University, rarely opens (I got the page on the fifth time) and according to Makalp has a lot of factual errors. The question of inclusion of contraversial material soleyly based on such a source is disputable. To facilitate the discussion rather than the edit war I have protected the article. I have also noticed that Makalp significantly expanded the article in the last days while his opponents were doing sterile edit war Alex Bakharev11:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Imho, Wikipedia community need to be happy because of the productive edits of Makalp. If we want to catch an academic/ objective level in Wikipedia, we have to avoid this war-like atmosphere. We don't have to divide ourselves into sides and attack "the others" blindly. Whatever you think about Makalp, at least show respect to the productive work that he has been doing. Take care folks, Deliogul18:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The user ignores discussion pages, removes sourced information usually if it has anything to do with Armenians or Armenian Genocide and replaces them with a poorly written text. Maybe Turkish community of wikiusers could teach him some wiki etiquette. I understand that administrators don't want to get involved in another Armenian-Turkish argument, but Makalp is being disruptive. I don't want him to get blocked, I only want him to stop edit warring and instead use the talk page to discuss his proposed changes. VartanM04:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
More BJAODN stuff
I can't seem to find a centralised venue discussing the BJAODN deletions and wheel-warring, but wanted to repeat my concerns that some people seem to be pointing out the GFDL violations as if this was something new for Wikipedia, when it is not. The rationale behind the deletion of the BJOADN pages was that they violated the GFDL. Can someone confirm that these are the same "cut-and-paste" GFDL violations that occur every time a page is merged into another page (eg. merging 20 stubs to form a list article)? If so, the deletion makes no sense. The move function only preserves the edit history of complete pages. Any other internal moving of Wikipedia text (such as merging a complete page into another one, or splitting the contents of a page among several other pages) breaks the GFDL. Some of these cases are too complicated to be dealt with by merging of article histories, especially if they have a long edit history. See Talk:Ptolemaic Egypt for an example. If so, why delete BJAODN nonsense on those grounds and keep all the other cases in article namespace where history merges are too complicated? I realised this point about Wikipedia and the GFDL fairly early on, and made a fuss about it (I can look up those discussions if anyone is interested). I was told not to worry, and that including links in edit summaries back to the source articles, and leaving a note on the talk page of any redirects asking for it not to be deleted, ever (so as to preserve the original edit history of the merged text), was sufficient. From the sounds of the BJAODN GFDL deletion reasoning, others are going through the same GFDL learning process that I did, except they are coming to different conclusions and deleting anything they think is non-GFDL compliant, not realising that for exactly the same reasons large chunks of many Wikipedia articles are not GFDL compliant. I can lay out a full table of the different types of moves, splits, and merges if people aren't getting this point. But maybe Uncle G's idea somewhere about needing to restore some policy/guideline text on this is also needed so people really understand what goes on when a "merger" takes place. Effectively, when you move something to BJAODN, you are splitting out a chunk of text and merging it to a different location This sort of thing happens all the time, all over Wikipedia (such as when a daughter article is spun off a large article from a section that grows too big), and there is no reason to single out BJAODN on this issue. I think BJAODN should be organised better and pruned a lot on taste and libel issues, but deleting large bits of it for GFDL reasons strikes me as a misunderstanding of how splits and merges work on Wikipedia. Carcharoth23:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
history mergers are posible for dealing with merges of entire articles. Otherwise a link to the relivant page history in an edit summer is probably your best bet.Geni23:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If all editors are attributed, you're safe under the GFDL. (You don't have to say which editor wrote which sentence) So you don't need a full history merge, you'd be safe just copying the list of editors to the talk page if the article is deleted, or providing a link back to the history if it's still extant. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Carcharoth, these are exactly the kind of thoughts that have been swirling around in my head ever seen hearing about the deletions. It's not so much that I care about BJAODN, but I think "wait.. what about.. all those articles... oh shi.." -- Ned Scott23:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a précis: The sky is not falling. Merger and deletion are mutually incompatible.
We may not merge content and then delete the original article. This is why, at AFD, people opining to "merge and delete" are asked to pick one. The procedure at Wikipedia:Merge, where one notes the source article in the edit history of the target article, is there precisely because of the requirements of the GFDL. If that procedure is followed, then each article's edit history will cross-reference all other edit histories that are relevant.
So, contrary to a couple of editors commenting on this subject, following the proper procedure for article merger does not break the GFDL. Adhering to the requirements of the GFDL, sans any ability in MediaWiki for editors without administrator tools to directly join edit histories together, is why this procedure evolved in the first place, after all. It is untrue that "large parts of Wikipedia violate the GFDL". The sky is not falling.
The problem with BJAODN, that Carcharoth is not seeing above, is that it isn't the sort of merger that is performed elsewhere in Wikipedia. Those mergers are "keep and merge". Content in BJAODN is the result of "merge and delete" — exactly the operation that contravenes the requirements of the GFDL, and that isn't permitted. The content is copied from an article, but the original article, with the edit history, is then deleted. The "D" in "BJAODN" stands for "deleted". And that is why BJAODN is singled out. It's one place where we systematically violate the copyright licence requirements that we enforce everywhere else.
There have been all sorts of bogus attempts to weasel out of this, from "It's fair use!" (which is obviously wrong: We all know about the pre-requisites for fair use now, two of which are that it be part of an encyclopaedia article and that it be for purposes of criticism or commentary — both of which BJAODN does not qualify for.) to "It's parody!" (which is also wrong: That it's parody loosens the copyright constraints with respect to the work being parodied. It doesn't mean that the copyright on the parody itself magically disappears. It is that latter that is relevant, not the former.). They are all wrong.
The ulterior motive for such weaselling is to keep BJAODN because editors like it. The correct course of action for editors who like BJAODN to take is to work on fixing its GFDL compliance. I find it quite saddening that the many editors who have griped and wheel warred on this subject for months have themselves done no work whatsoever on actually fixing the problem in all of those months. Several administrators of long-standing, in particular, should be ashamed of themselves. In stark contrast: Applause goes to editors such as MER-C who have quietly and without fuss worked on fixing the GFDL compliance, by locating and checking articles that we need to undelete (to restore the required edit history) and rename.
The correct procedure for BJAODN is the same as the correct procedure for article-space when one wants to merge content but leave the title redlinked: Rename the source page to another title, delete the history-free redirect that is left behind, then merge. (In the case of BJAODN as it is structured now, the merger isn't necessary, since the main page contains links to the individual sub-pages.) This procedure can be found at Wikipedia:Deletion process#Articles for Deletion page.
I'll point out that the disclaimer on the edit page says: "Do not copy text from other websites without a GFDL-compatible license. It will be deleted." That implies that it is okay to copy text from websites with GFDL-compatible licenses. Perhaps that needs to be changed. — PyTom09:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that extended explanation, Uncle G. I knew I must be missing something, and it was the old difference between merging and deleting the edit history (not allowed under the GFDL) and merging while keeping the edit history at a redirect (or parent article). Though I would like to point out that the source of some of the material transferred to BJAODN is not always deleted - sometimes the page still exists. You are quite right, of course, to point out that most of it is deleted material. Having said that, with the normal procedure of merging and keeping the edit history at a redirect (or parent article) there can be a problem with editors performing merges without noting in the edit summaries where the merged-in content has come from. Usually, a check of the contributions history of the editor will reveal where they got the text from, but it is always worrying when large amounts of text are moved around by editors using minimally informative edit summaries (eg. "merge", or just marking the edit as 'minor'!). The other point is that redirects from merges aren't always left alone to preserve the edit history. Sometimes they are rewritten as disambiguation pages, turned into new articles, moved again, and at some point down the line they may even get deleted if people forget that it was once a redirect from a merge. This can be an especial problem with a long history of different moves and redirects, creating a very tangled maze of locations for various parts of the edit history. (For an example of this, see Magicians in fantasy and the various talk pages, in particular Talk:Wizard (fantasy) - I still don't understand the full history of what happened there - if anyone wants to take the GFDL seriously, try and work out where the edit history is for that set of pages. See also this attempt at analysing what happened). How should that kind of situation be dealt with? Do people at AfD and RfD (redirects for deletion) always take the time to check this sort of thing? Carcharoth10:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think I had the answer to that Magic issue at one point and posted it on the talk page, but I'm buggered if I can remember it. I think another admin did eventually implement it though, I remember checking. The basic issue was that pages had to remain in certain places so that the links in edit summaries related to merges worked. Steve blockTalk19:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
– Post by or on behalf of banned user trolling a rather pleasant user who just doesn't happen to share his POV. I urge the next sysop seeing this message to give him a swift kick and block. Will(talk)10:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It is a growing problem around Central European (more precisely Hungary and their neighbours') articles, that fascist or near fascist or "at least" very anti-Hungarian (hungarophobic) POVs are occuring in a lot of articles, and they are forced to stay in those articles by some fanatics, whom on their enwiki userpages call themselves everything nice, (patriot, pacifist, supporting same-sex marriage, etc, etc), but in fact (on ther native language wikipedia) they openly support (crypto-)fascist groups/rehabilitation of fascist leaders (notably Ion Antonescu, or Jozef Tiso), and they are opposing same sex marriage :) (this is a real case: on enwiki userbox: support, onthatother wiki userbox: oppose, strongly)
Obvious, they're lying, but they always, and I mean ALWAYS stay within the wiki-policies here, and above all, "they came first", what means, that they almost single-handedly written Wikipedia's thorough coverage of their main area of interests. So in fact, they are bulletproof, and their lines are 9,9/10 times accepted as the NPOV by non related users, admins.
They're added and adding local nationalist myths, POVs, original researches, and LOL sources (nowhere noted, just only in the local far-right), and they show them as mainstream thoughts, those sources as noted scholars (sic!), and so on, whole themes are based on works of executed fascist writers or contemporary xenophobe nationalists, playing out the fact, that 99% of enwiki users are not even intrested in those articles, themes, so they can easily wash those hungarophobic contents snow white, as they do with those leaders mentioned above: I give only one difflink to show the case in action, since he's indef banned now (for disruptive editing, not for constant POV pushing, and racism/hungarophobic): [174]. Anyone who deletes such things, are instantly called nationalist/chauvinist/etc by them (!) making true the phrase "the best defence is offence".
Let me quote someone, who's better in english, than me :)
"There is an editor, who is persistently rude and uncivil," I (and none of the Hungarian editors) "have never seen him assume good faith (quite the opposite), he always assumes that anyone who disagrees with him (or posts some fact that he doesn't like) is some sort of fascist troll, frequently uses gratuitously rude edit summaries, has implicitly threatened me and explicitly threatened a friend of mine with a massive edit-war campaign, has declared his intent to stalk a few other users whose opinions he doesn't like and undo all their edits, seems to believe that he and only he knows The Truth about his main area of interest, behaves remarkably arrogantly and disruptively, and basically turns 90% of all the discussions he enters into a vicious flame war. The problem is, he isn't just some random troll. He's astonishingly prolific, and has almost single-handedly written Wikipedia's thorough coverage of his main area of interest."(full text)
An RfC doesn't solve anything. Anybody remember the Piotus-Ghirla affair? This needs more serious actions, but none of the users are willing to became a target of them, nor me (at least yet). This is why I'm writing from my workplace and not logged in. This is an impossible situation. --84.236.89.20823:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They even managed to get banned the most motivated editors whom were deleting their non sense, POV and such, for disruptive editing ... (!!) --84.236.89.20800:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is true in a way, since this is a shared workplace IP. Vince is my colleague, but he's not editing enwiki anymore. Or at least not from here. --84.236.89.20800:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
C'mon, Vince. Give it up. We're onto the game now. And I find it interesting that Vince, as your "co-worker", happens to make the same edits as you. Making you a meatpuppet anyway. The Evil Spartan00:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No cabal, specific users, but with no names. I gave one difflink. I just don't want to put K. Lastochka (the one, whom I quoted) into trouble by naming the one, who bonkers her, since the first times. --84.236.89.20800:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And so what do you want us to do? Without a name, we can't take any action or do an independent investigation of your allegations. --Hemlock Martinis00:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
All of my dealings with Lastochka have been rather pleasant, and your IP range has been known to troll on at leastFranz Liszt. Rouge closing of discussion. Will(talk)10:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Issues w/ Administrator Rockpocket
FIRST INCIDENT w/ Administrator Rockpocket:
Hello, I've been having a problem with Rockpocket's administration for kind of a long time now. My thing is give people a second chance and see if they improve, but this administrator still hasn't improved. He wrote:
[[175]]
Rockpocket wrote to Danielfolsom on his talk page aboute me: Don't worry about it. If you choose to go around calling people vandals, you aren't going to get much sympathy when you complain about someone else making comments like you did.You reap what you sow.'' [<---- The end of Rockpocket's quote]]
I was NEVER going around calling people vandals, and he was well aware of that because he was involved in the issue. That was something that happened with ONE person and it was because she didn't have a source for her statement and I did, yet she kept rv my info and adding hers. So I wrote rv vandalism. It was something that happened twice before I was informed that it wasn't vandalism by Rockpocket and it never happened again after that. However, he tells Daniel not to worry about something he has done wrong by going back to this same issue that happened a long time ago with me and being untruthful about it. He also makes it look like bad behavior justifies bad behavior here at wikipedia w/ comments like you reap what you sow and don't worry about it Daniel because he has gone around calling people vandals which I haven't.
SECOND INCIDENT w/ Administrator Rockpocket:
The second incident is when I become friends with Daniel, however I point out that he may want to use good faith with Dscarth in a nasty argument he is having with him because Daniel says Dscarth is probably trying to piss everyone off. My intent is so that the two will cool off and behave more civilly. However Daniel gets upset with me and doesnt feel he has shown bad faith when he says 'Dscarth seems to be trying to piss people off.' So I just ask Rockpocket, since he is friends with Daniel, and maybe Daniel will be more willing to listen to him. I ask Rockpocket if he can talk to his friend about assuming more good faith to cool down their heated argument on yogurt talk page. However Rockpocket, became very uncivil with me and writes what is below. I totally didn't deserve this:
Firstly WP:AGF is a guideline, not a policy. Secondly, Daniel said dscarth... seems intent... in other words, that is Daniel's interpretation after significant interaction with dscarth. I have no idea what is going on with dscarth. It may well be a large assumption of bad faith in Daniel's part, or he may indeed be trolling the page just to piss people off. I don't know, and I don't really care. If you have an opinion on that, tell Daniel yourself.Finally, and with all due respect, if dscarth himself came an made a complaint I may consider approaching Daniel, but since the alleged WP:AGF as nothing to do with you at all, there is little to be gained from pursuing it.
If you don't like Daniel's forthright style then stay away from him, but please stop engaging him in "friendly" banter, then going behind his back and reporting him when he says something you don't agree with. If someone seriously violates policy, there are number of warnings any editor can issue (see WP:UW). Please consider using them. If the behaviour continues to the extent it is disrupting the project, then by all means let me know and I'll look into it. However, admins are not here to babysit, and we are not inclined to dish out cautions for every little squabble, especially when they are as isignificant as this. [<---- The End of Rockpocket's quote] EverybodyHatesChris04:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I don't know how to make it any clearer for you, Irishguy. The first time, he lied about me and the 2nd time, Rockpocket became uncivil with me. He's also made unconstructive remarks and has shown biased to user Danielfolsom. EverybodyHatesChris02:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What I mean is you know all the people involved...the rest of us don't. I can't really follow what you are trying to say. Can you provide some links to specific instances that are problematic for you? IrishGuytalk02:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm having difficulty understanding it as well. Part of the problem I think is, in the second example anyway, it isn't clear whether the original poster is quoting another editor? Diffs would be good. Anchoress02:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK Chris, so you added a line to make the second entry a bit clearer. But then your sig is at the bottom of the quote. So when does RP's quote end? Anchoress02:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I take it that in the first quote, the "you" is referring to you(EverybodyHatesChris) not Danielfolsom? And the diff to the second problematic quote is this? --Dark Fallstalk08:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
*Sigh* Let me make clear what EHC is trying to say. Firstly, Danielfolsom (talk·contribs) is an adoptee of mine. He'll often come to me for advice, and I will often offer some suggestions about his editing. Daniel, EHC and Migospia (talk·contribs) were thrashing out a content dispute at Talk:Coral Smith and EHC was reverting disputed content labelling it "vandalism". [177][178][179] EHC was upset about some of Daniels comment and complained to me. I replied with this and also had a word with Daniel. When Daniel replied, I told he not to be unduly concerned, since EHC is hardly the most civil of editors when it comes to commenting on the edits of others. However, my grammer was not entirely clear so let me rephrase to indicate who I was referring to: Don't worry about it. If [EHC] chooses to go around calling people vandals, [he] isn't going to get much sympathy when [he] complains about someone else making comments like you [Daniel] did. You reap what you sow.[180]
ehc has talked on numberous admins' talk pages - most notably User_talk:Heimstern - who he threatened to report for saying "What do you want me to do?". EHC has shown incivility by threatening to report multiple editors and shows no willingness to understand the policy he attempts to make accusations based upon, as proved by his allegations. --danielfolsom02:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Guys, Rockpocket has again brought up old edit summary problems on this page that I even admit I made a mistake about earlier on this page and besides that, this argument is about something much more current that has happened between Daniel and myself. This is all because he won't acknowledge that Danielfolsom's has done something wrong and instead lies about very old incidences with me that only happened ONCE, all to justify Daniel's behavior and become uncivil towards me. He only gave you a link to the one time he talked to Daniel and although Daniel continued after he talked to him, he tells Daniel that first 'reap what you sow' comment. That's how badly biased gets to be with Daniel and Rockpocket. The two of them can become very easily biased towards other editors very quickly and it becomes unfair for someone else and you can be ganged up on by them. Just to prove how easily they can become biased, look at a comment directed to Danielfolsom and Rockpocket right here: [[184]] Also, look at Danielfolsom's comments right here when a user, he is starting to become friends with, is being completely incivil towards me User talk:Dscarth#1st Warning For Incivility. Dscarth is telling me I am unstable. He's calling me the worst wikipedian ever. Danielfolsom only just went to Dscarth's talk page and although he acknowledge's Dscarth's comments to be over the top, he just said that he would back up Dscarth now that the two editors have made up. Daniel even knows my intentions were never bad because he just wrote me this on my user talk page [[185]], but still wants to protect Dscarth because they are closer than me and Daniel. Editors can easily be ganged up on by people like Rockpocket and Danielfolsom when there's biased behavior like that and I truly hope you all will see that and make the right decision. You can see that obviously I've been treat uncivilly by Dscarth and how Daniel, who's now becoming Dscarth's friend, is showing biased towards Dscarth without really looking at who's right in the matter. However, when an administrator like Rockpocket is in on it as well, I'm forced to come here. EverybodyHatesChris02:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WOh my god - I'm so getting increasingly frustrated for you. About 5 seconds ago you said you never called anyone vandals - now you say that you did (by the way - it wasn't one user, you also called me a vandal). And it's not attacking - you need to consider the idea that one relatively expierienced user (myself), one expierienced user (Dscarth) and one admin (Rockpocket) are actually right. And the problem is - before (on a diff. talk page) you said that you didn't know the edits weren't vandalism - but that's always the problem with you. You don't know the policies but you try to enforce them - you've threatened so many people by saying "I'll report you for incivility" - and then when you went to an admins talk page to do so, and when the admins said nothing happened- you declared bias. Look at the patterns - becaue you're doing the same thing over and over again - and you're turning almost everyone against you. Look at User talk:Heimstern, how do you explain that? Doesn't it strike you as odd that you've declared almost every editor you've worked with to have a vendetta against you?--danielfolsom03:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And me writing that on your talk page says "I know you're intentions are bad - but you're still doing the wrong thing" - so of course i'm going to defend Dscarth! --danielfolsom03:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hitachi spam
It's not clear to me whether this is the right place to report this but in any case, I'm interested in advice on this issue. I have just deleted a gazillion pages created by and images uploaded by Robko71 (talk·contribs) (see my deletion log [186]). The account has been, it seems, used solely to promote Hitachi Construction Machinery (see the history of the deleted page) and created a large number of articles for various Hitachi trucks, often using clearly promotional language (sample "With its beefy Benz V-8 engine and effective Allison transmission, the AH500-D has the perfect match of high torque and smooth shifting"). The images were uploaded and tagged as user-created when they were all clearly copied directly from the company's website. That being said, I'm just wondering how to proceed from here and also having doubts on whether it was ok for me to nuke all the images rather than, say mark them as incorrectly tagged. Robko has already recreated the Hitachi Construction Machinery article and I'm hesitant to re-delete it as it quite likely is a notable company. Advice appreciated. Thanks, Pascal.Tesson02:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am the one that marked all the articles for speedy deletion. I was repairing dab links and run into one of the articles which struck me the as promotional. After clicking around on the links I came to the same conclusion as Pascal, that the account was used soley to create articles promote this company. As far as it being a notable company I should also mention that there is an article Hitachi Construction Machinery (Europe) that has been around much longer. It seems to be related to the spam company (the deleted page had a link to this article) and does not appear to be promotional in nature.RobDe6803:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The images were uploaded and tagged as user-created when they were all clearly copied directly from the company's website: Both statements may be in theory true, if User:Robko71 is writing as a member of Hitachi company and not as a private individual. But that would make it spam. Some companies likely check what is being written about them by the public, including on Wikipedia. Anthony Appleyard05:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's been recreated and it is of pretty decent quality, even if it is a little spammy. It suggests that he has been working on this for a long time, since there have been only 2 edits to the page. x42bn6TalkMess13:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
He has also re-uploaded many of the images, still tagging them as PD-self. Again, help and advice from a more experienced spam-fighting admin would be much appreciated. Pascal.Tesson13:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
LibStu made a libellous comments here about me that are totally unfounded and off the topic to Wikipedia [[187]] Whilst I recognise the fact that you use numerous aliases, one of which, I might add, Stephen Highbury, has been referred for investigation for the continued harassment of Young Liberal Executive members
Well, he accused you of being a "Stephen Highbury", who he claimed was under investigation. You do not appear to dispute the fact that Stephen Highbury is under investigation (not even criminal) - rather, you assert that he is wrong in calling you him. If you really are who you say you are, a "Michelle Crisp" then this cannot possibly be construed as libel, since it is prima facie absurd that anyone would think the person named Michelle Crisp could also be the same person as Stephen Highbury. --Haemo03:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
but he did not delete the statement as per Wikipedia policy (It is Wikipedia policy to delete libellous material when it has been identified from WP:LEGAL). Secondly, I do not know any Stephen Highbury so cannot say if he (if he even exists) is under investigation. But if this Stephen is real and doing harassing (and it's not on Wikipedia) then LibStu is directly saying that I am the one doing it. That is libel. LibStu is suggesting that I am an alias despite repeatedly saying that I am Michelle Crisp. I know it may sound absurd that he is simply suggesting I am someone else but he refuses to delete the statement. Michellecrisp07:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Neutralhomer has actually cleaned up after himself, removing all the broadcast schedules. Which saved a bit of time. Guy (Help!) 20:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't harrassment, it was laziness. I am not going to go around and type something different to each person. I use the ol' cut and paste method.
Calton...don't get me started. You all will see me as the bad guy and him as this great person who should be on a momument somewhere no matter what I say and what he does.
I will readily admit SVRTVDude (one account, just used a different signing name) and User:Neutralhomer are one in the same. No rule, that I can see, that doesn't allow me to do that. Things were going just fine until the whole KXGN-TV situation again.
This whole thing (which is, I suspect, the work of a sockpuppet making a WP:POINT) is yet another skirmish over the silly "BADSITES" linking rule... see my essay for more background. *Dan T.*14:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I got to the part about Nazis and had to stop. Why are you broadcasting your essay all over the place?--MONGO14:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's relevant background information. I suppose you could try to get 'wikipedia.org' declared to be an Attack Site because it contains this essay, and then I wouldn't be allowed to post any more links to it. And I anticipated your "Nazi" objections ahead of time, when I inserted a quip about Godwin's Law at that point in the essay. *Dan T.*14:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Then your comparative analogy with Nazis was not in jest, I take it. The disclaimer is simply a strawman.--MONGO14:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't comparing anybody here with Nazis... just comparing linking to Nazi sites with linking to anti-Wikipedia "attack sites". *Dan T.*14:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is a nonissue comparison then. The Nazi websites don't seem to be actively engaged in trying to "out" the real life identities of our individual editors.--MONGO15:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of merrick's sockpuppetry status, who cares about the messenger when the message is true. Wikipedia has an article about a Wikipedia "attack site" as wikipedia itself defines in in several quasi-law declarations. What next? WR, WW, ASM get their own articles? They meet the same notability criteria as they have all had multiple cites as subjects of articles from notable sources. So either delete the WT article and "ban" links to it as these other 3 sites, or....just apply the same rules to all "attack sites" if there is going to be such a thing as an "attack site" that is the basis of link deletion and user banning.Piperdown17:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merrick3x appears to be a single purpose sockpuppet
I concur... it obviously seems like a trolling sockpuppet attempting to stir things up on this BADSITES issue... but it's rather fun to watch the wikidrama that results (and see how the genuine link-ban advocates find themselves with no choice but to concur and vote "delete" in the AfD that guy started). I just wonder who it really is... but is that "trying to out a Wikipedia editor" to speculate on such things (and it would make this site an attack site if it tolerated such discussion)? *Dan T.*14:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And I've speedily closed the AFD discussion. It was obviously a bad faith nomination and an attempt to abuse AFD as a proxy for another debate. Uncle G15:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ongoing personal attacks, assumptions of bad faith and and incivility from Chris Croy (talk·contribs)
I don't really know who this person is, but he's injected himself into an issue I was involved with at the Society for Creative Anachronism, after I posted a question on the admin noticeboard to help clarify a point. I am somewhat new here and still trying to learn how this all works. I all cases, I have acted in good faith.
Citing the famous Don't Be A Dick essay is never a personal attack. Now, as for the substance - Those comments were not personal attacks. 'Utterly retarded' is a nice way of putting it when your VfD is snowballed by Speedy Keeps. Speedy Keep MEANS "This AfD is retarded, close it now." Suggesting you stop nominating articles you know nothing about is not a personal attack - It's a legitimate suggestion because you waste the community's time when you nominate otherwise decent articles that you simply know nothing about. Pointing out that you don't know what notability and verifiability means is also not a personal attack; at this point it's an objective fact. The problem is that you continue to show a lack of understanding for what AfD is for and how you should use it. It's not Articles for Cleanup. It's not Articles I Know Nothing About And Didn't Google. It's Articles The Nominator Thinks Ought To Be Deleted. Pointing out that you don't understand bad formatting systems is also objectively true. I believe I counted six references that weren't to the SCA's website, most of which were external jumps/sloppily written references/. You have repeatedly said the article had no references outside the organization's website, which very clearly isn't true. And finally, my response was a snarky rewrite of the stock NPA template you left on my talk page. If MINE was a personal attack, then that template is too. Chris Croy15:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That template is meant for users to look at, themselves, personally, and nothing else; and specially not pointing out to users that they are behaving like "dick[s]". I understand that you did not mean it to be a personal attack, but I suggest that you restrain yourself from making such references in the future. Best, — Nearly Headless Nick{C}15:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I tagged this several days ago, under CSD BIO. Very unpromising google results (0) and the only links in the article are a drawing by Ms. Ison-Sterier and a blurb about how she is "one to watch", which I believe violates WP:NOT (crystal ball). This morning, I reverted vandalism on my userpage from an anon who also removed the tag on the article. Could an admin take a look at this?
Xaverian High School (copied from Help Desk, posted there by User:Xaverianhs)
Xaverian High School has a page on wikipedia, but repeated attempts to delete content that cannot be verified are being hampered by the wikipedia staff or some of its editors. wikipedia cannot verify that the names being submited are indeed graduates of the school or are indeed within the profession that they supposedly say they are engaing in or are famous for a particular act. It baffles us that you allow content ot be added and angered that it is deleted even if it cannot be substantiated. We realize that the page is about the school and that we do not own it but you must realize that some high school students will do or say anything to denegrate the school. Verbal graffiti if you will. We must maintain some type of credibility and not just allow to post content under the guise of free speech.
User:Xaverianhs seems to have some ownership issues over the article. I can't make heads or tails out of why some alumni should be in the article, but not others. But the Username might be problematic as the user seems to be trying to make claims of authority. Corvus cornix16:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The preceding two have been very uncivil in their comments to users, and treats a certain guideline (Fair use rationale) as if it were policy. I mean, at least User:Carnildo (who is an admin) and User:OrphanBot see that a fair-use tag is enough reason to include an image. When users have brought up their issues to him, he replies with very uncivil comments. I ask that action be taken right away! Tom Danson16:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just provide the fair use rationales instead of wasting time here? The bot is doing what it's meant to. Fair use rationales have to be provided, or else images get deleted. MoreschiTalk16:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Funny. I'd say that your post to BetaCommand's Talk page entitled "Jawol, mein Fuhrer!" is most definitely an unacceptable and uncivil personal attack warranting at least a strong warning if not a block. --ElKevbo16:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes he has been uncivil. But two wrongs don't make a right. So maybe I should bring up his incivility, but be more civil myself. Tom Danson16:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and where exactly has Betacommand been incivil? And if he has? If I was subjected to the amount of bile he's copped for actually asking people to follow the rules, my fuse would be even shorter than it usually is. Betacommand has my sympathies. You, as of now, do not. Your post on his talk page was way out of line and you seem to have chronically abused fair use. MoreschiTalk16:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, just a heads up and an explanation of what you have read. The Image deletion issue on ArbCom happened ~8 months ago and it was in regard to making a noob admin mistake. As for the statement to Matthew, that was only the second time Ive ever used profanity on Wikimedia. He had been trolling, calling be a liar, incompetent, a software thief, and he had been also making other Personal attacks. He was complaining and raising cane because a group of admins had been enforcing policy and removing Fair use images that he uploaded and used in the List of ... episode pages. Since started a orphan Fair use tagging bot at about the same time he got mad at me because the bot tagged is numerous OFU images. (there were over a 100) and he decided to take out his frustration on me by trolling, insulting my programming skills and other personal attacks, and also claiming that the bot was broken. When asked for examples of how the bot was broken, he wouldn't respond he would just continue trolling and complaining where ever my name came up in a discussion. Finally I dropped the F bomb on him (only the second time ever using that word on wiki) so please be careful and only quote relevant topics when making complaints against users. Betacommand(talk • contribs • Bot)23:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Like, anything other than you complaining and Betacommand not talking (which, admittedly, he should have). Either way, I can't blame him. The amount of venom aimed in his direction for doing the right thing, as of late, has been astonishing. MoreschiTalk19:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Re: 'Astonishing,' by Moreschi, above. Betacommand has been on this notice board consistantly for a while now, it's almost as if he's enforcing a policy which doesn't have community consensus and has been handed down from on high somewhere. (mmmmm 'high'. . . makes me think of both cold and happy at the same time) R. Baley20:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am providing a fair-use rationale with every image I upload now. Hovever, what I do not see as fair is an "ex post facto" policy, threatening to delete images uploaded before he got so strict on the rationale. So yes, I do think he should be enforcing images currently being uploaded, but not ones uploaded before his bot came. Tom Danson17:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh? So we should make no effort to clean up years of endemic fair use abuse? No effort to comply with Foundation dictates? No effort to respect the fact that we are supposed to be a free (libre) encyclopedia, not just a free-as-in-beer one? MoreschiTalk17:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tom, fair use rationales are not a new requirement. They have been necessary since at least February 2004, when processes for handling uploads of unfree media were first introduced. --bainer (talk) 00:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Concur with Betacommand. Complaining about this policy is akin to complaining about the sand being wet when the tide comes in because you never saw the tide come in before. We are a free content encyclopedia. See Wikipedia:About, first sentence if you doubt that. This fair use rationale requirement has been policy for a long time. --Durin18:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
User:Aarandir has a section of his userpage devoted to admins, featuring a picture of Samael and using such niceties as "twat," "pedantic," and "pointless." The top of his talk page is organized into a section called "Arguments I have won," also mainly starring admins. His most recent trick has verbal abuse of me for my use of quotation marks when I tried to help him, apparently because he thinks quotation marks are actually sarcasm marks. The whole exchange is quoted here, where he can also be observed treating User:Isotope23 rudely. His post to my talk page, which is mean-spirited and sexist, is here.
I'm not comfortable using admin powers regarding people who have made me angry, but this guy is clearly out of line in a lot of ways. Please advise. --Masamage♫17:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've already asked him to remove his arguments I've won talkpage section and he essentially refused to do so. Rudeness directed at me isn't something I'm concerned about... but in the couple of days I've engaged in conversation with him I get the distinct impression that he is more concerned with winning arguments than he is with improving the encyclopedia. His reply to Masamage (talk·contribs) was absolutely out of line.--Isotope2317:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with Aarandir's conduct, but with him rarely editing the past couple days, I fear a block at this point would be more punitive than preventative (any other thoughts on this?). I've also left a comment about his other image; until Wikipedia:Respect my authoritah! becomes policy, it's only fair he not be allowed to be polemic on either end of the spectrum. -- tariqabjotu17:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't suggesting a block here. I've been engaging him the last few days and as I said in my last reply to him, I see this ending badly for him at some point in the future if he continues to engage his fellow editors in this manner; but I agree, blocking him right now would absolutely be punitive.--Isotope2317:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
don't we know how this ends? someone needs to do some research but there is clearly something like a "50 edit" rule - if your first 50 edits are full of crap then generally... --Fredrick day22:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. IMO this editor is clearly a troll, either just ignore until s/he plays out enough rope to hang himself, or sanction in some way. I hate giving trolls wanking material, which IMO a lot of this stuff about the pics etc is. Anchoress22:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So what would be considered the upper limit of trollishness? Please note that the behavior has continued on his talk page; he has now told User:Tariqabjotu, "You also say that you find it offensive that im calling some admins saints. If this is the case than I think there might be something wrong with you, no where has being good been considered offensive except incidently in the mind of psychos and sufferers of other mental diseases." --Masamage♫23:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The upper limit of trollishness is pretty individualized, but he's exceeded mine. Almost all of his edits are to talk space (and of an unconstructive nature). We would be losing out on image uploads like this one (note edit summary), but that may be an acceptable price. I think the best approach to this kind of childish trolling is probably WP:SHUN, as he seems to just want someone to argue with. But if some other admin thinks he should be blocked, I don't think I'd lose sleep over it. MastCellTalk23:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
On a lighter point, you've got to admire the gall of someone who has a picture taking the piss out of someone's spelling mistake at the top of their talk page, following by a paragraph full of spelling and grammar errors (first sentence: ..." I have also seen it being used to pedal hatred."....) EliminatorJRTalk02:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is also amusing: "With Admins its almost as if they get a place of responsibility on the internet and thier ego grows and they think they are always right, however I can prove them wrong with my tremendous argument skills even though they seem to thing thier logic is infallible." - Merzbow05:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This user, in spite of my pleas [199][200] to stop he continues to wage revert wars on my talk page. I warned him several times, yet he persists in reverting my talk page to his complaints over and over again. Please do something. 1st: [201] 2nd: [202] 3rd:[203] 4th:[204] Just today he edited it 14 times! --Hillock6517:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is an archetypal example of successful abuse of this noticeboard for forum shopping in content disputes. It has been condemned many times but it continues. Sigh... --Ghirla-трёп-13:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
An editor on kimchi feels it is better not to use a redirect rather than a direct link to Chinese cabbage. While no one has opposed using the alternate names he suggests, since the linked main article on the vegetable is there and because it might be informational, other editors have suggested at least a clause, "a variety of Chinese cabbage" over any locally used names. Over the past few months a half dozen or so editors have tried to make this change, even setting up a straw poll here in order to illustrate the consensus. Instead, he insists to change back to the redirect, occasionally inserting several redirect links that all go to the same article while excluding a direct link.
Today the consensus version was tried yet again, and yet again the lone editor reverted up to his maximum three/day. He is participating on the talk page, but not offering any suggestions; simply stating that those that disagree with him must convince him before changing to the consensus version. His contributions and reverts are generally of the nature to call the other editors "liars," disingenuous, labeling his reverts as "removing vandalism" when they are just going to the consensus version, etc. (eg here and here).
This is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever argued about with someone on Wikipedia, and I'm at a loss as to what to do when presented with this level of WP:stubbornness. Try to "enforce the consensus," I made my first revert in days today, but I guess being honest I have no doubt it will be reverted back when the 24 hours for his 3RR limit rolls around. Several editors have been trying this, but he always reverts back saying they are instigating "edit wars." If he does this again, I'm not going to be sucked into an edit war over something this dumb again, but this level of insistence in spite of the consensus means that the consensus will never be there for more than a day.
What's best to do? Dispute resolution with a lone editor against the half dozen+ others who have tried to put in a consensus? Leave it alone until then? Any suggestions would be appreciated. --Cheers, Komdori18:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I left a 3RR final warn on the guy's talk page. He's been revert-warring on that article for days now and a number of different editors have taken issue with his changes, including yourself - Alison☺18:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for looking at it; I looked at the edit history myself and am a bit taken aback at the number of edits I and others made during the course of the discussion; we've tried all manner of compromises and no one even changed his version for the past few days, just letting it sit with his version, but the minute anyone makes an edit, away it goes with one of his comments where he says something like, "good grief," or how we're all "blind" or "liars." --Cheers, Komdori18:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. You're not nearly at the 3RR limit, otherwise you'd have been warned too :) If the guy is being uncivil in his comments, you might want to point out WP:CIVIL to him and ask him to assume good faith regarding his fellow editors - Alison☺18:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well I would, but I think that would be kind of just stirring the fire. I think all the editors on that talk page have warned him multiple times; he's been blocked for it (for incivility/a week at a time for 3rr, etc.). He usually responds with things like "I am not interested in compromising with trolls," here or that he finds "warning[s] of civility to be of ill-faith." here. I've never seen someone argue so ardently over a vegetable. Harsh reactions like this are enough to make most editors just give up and let him have the article to himself. He seems to take warnings as personal insults, so I've held off recently :S. --Cheers, Komdori18:42, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, An editor reverting three times a day on a content dispute, day after day is in clear violation of 3RR. WilyD18:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've never seen someone argue so ardently over a vegetable. You should meet my relatives. If the kimchi they purchase at the local Korean market was imported from China or Japan, they have a fit like you would not believe. It's pretty damn good, try it! Seicer (talk) (contribs) 19:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
*sigh* - fully protected against edit-warring until this is resolved. This issue has been going on since March and had previously been reported to WP:RFPP. I thought it looked familiar. As it turns out, I reverted vandalism (as did User:Fvasconcellos) and this guy came along and reverted again. The edit summaries in the article history speak volumes - Alison☺19:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I wish there was some policy about notifying users about formal accusations and reports that are filed about them. This isn't as crazy a dispute as it seems. Topically, kimchi is made out of "baechu" cabbage. There are several english words for this specific type of cabbage. It is most widely sold and known as "napa cabbage". "chinese cabbage" is used as a generic term used to sell asian cabbages that are not used for making the type of kimchi being referred to. Komdori and Lactose are against using "napa cabbage" and using a term that is inaccurate and unnecessary because they're only reason for participating in this talk page has been this one revert war.
What Komdori has left out is that he and Lactose's participation in this page began when they showdowed my edits in retaliation of our disagreement in the turtle ship article to this kimchi article and reverted my edit on this one sentence. Komdori and Lactose have never participated in editing this article besides this revert war. And they're participation in this page hasn't been about the actual topic of the article but largely limited to claiming majority between the two of them and one other editor(Webaware) who is the only other editor besides myself who had contributed to this article before this edit war, the straw poll and other such technicalities. In fact this latest bout of revert warring was instigated when Lactose and Komdori refused to participate in the discussion page and go ahead with the reverts knowing that the two of them would out number me. When I reach my third edit, Komdori filed this report.
I could go on and on pointing out the real story behind most of Komdori's accusation above. E.g. my harsh reaction like this was a response to Komdori's comment that I reverted without discussing, when his entire comment was a response to my 4 paragraph explanation. Rather than responding to the substantive issues of the discussion and my explanation, Komdori ignored the substantive issues and resorted to accusing me of "reverting without discussion". Somehow my 4 paragraph explanation and Komdori and Lactose's double teamed effort of revert warring is reduced to accusations for the sake of gamesmanship.
There is actually a real issue that needs to be resolved here. I've pointed out along with the only third party participant([216]) that the cabbage that is being referred to in the text is Napa cabbage. Komdori and Lactose have not disagreed with this nor have they offered a better English word for this cabbage. Instead they have inexplicably reverted over and over and over back to "chinese cabbage" which has been established in the above link as well as myself as being an inaccurate term.
I have and am willing to extend good faith assumption here. But the fact is that Komdori and Lactose have only participated in editing in this revert war and nothing else. Furthermore, their participation even in the talk page have been mostly regarding technicalities and gamesmanship rather than about the substantive topic. Hopefully those who are genuinely interested in this topic can go back to trying to resolve genuine issues in this article.melonbarmonster20:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Firstly, this revert-warring has been going on long enough now. The article is now fully-protected, so here it stops. Whatever about the veracity of whether kimchi is chinese cabbage or not, this revert-warring is unacceptable. I'm not overly concerned about which version it is stuck at, but this needs to stop. Right now, your best option may be to take the matter to Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal or Wikipedia:Mediation Committee but you should all try the talk page from now - Alison☺20:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I feel as if I'm being punished for participating in talk page. This didn't blow up again until Komdori and Lactose ignored the talk page discussion and began reverting knowing they would out-number me. Current decision and the version of article as it stands is only rewarding blind revert warring in numbers. Alison can you review the dispute so that a more neutral version can be PP'ed? THanks.melonbarmonster20:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This report was filed by Komdori after Komdori and Lactose refused to participate in the talk page and ignored the ensuing discussing and started to revert knowing that they would outnumber me. And now their revert is page protected and of course they have not resumed participating in the talk page again. Do you not see how this just encourages and rewards group revert wars!melonbarmonster21:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's been, like, two hours. Have some patience - people have lives outside of Wikipedia. --Haemo
I am not going to revert to a nebulous "correct" revision. Right now, the desired outcome has been established; the revert-warring has stopped. Next stage is dialog and, as pointed out already, silence does not imply assent here. Furthermore, I note that you have a well-established record of being blocked on multiple articles for revert-warring and incivility, sometimes up to a week. Right now, I'm seeing that attitude prevail on the kimchi article, in your edit summaries and in your talk page commentaries. Please try to be civil with your fellow-editors and assume a certain good faith on their part. - Alison☺21:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Editor making personal attacks in edit summaries
Is this the right place to mention this? Scott 110 has a history of insulting other editors, his last three edit summaries were removing moronic statement again, thats the most idiot thing ive ever read, and removed moronic, uncited statements. He has been warned about his behavious several times but he continues. I just happened to notice one of his summaries in an article I was looking at and I haven't seen edit summaries abused in this way before. 172.215.48.19821:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's not particularly nice. Their edit history shows that to be their default setting. I've left a note on their talk page, so we'll see how it goes ... - Alison☺22:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nice. Such behaviour on the part of Scott_110 isn't appropriate all the time but isn't requiring of immidiate action. A note on the user's page is good. --Deskana(talk)22:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not that I particularly care....but how is calling a statement, rather than the author of a statement, idiotic or moronic a personal attack on the author him/herself? Look up the word "criticism".Scott 11003:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I recently closed Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/VinylJoe - another admin had already blocked the account in question (User:Rert2) as a sock. The puppeteer, VinylJoe, is involved in a heavy dispute with another user at Talk:Audio mastering, and the target of the sock asked me to block User:VinylJoe (the sockmaster) as well. I hadn't done this since I figured it would be more punitive than preventive, and in my view both disputants need to go down the road of dispute resolution (i.e. a short block won't solve things). Can I get a sanity check? Would others have blocked the sockmaster as well in this situation? MastCellTalk22:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just to throw in a non-sysop's 2 cents, I would block the editor depending on how bad the multiple account abuse is. Also, think of it this way: If you don't block him, he will not be prevented from abusing more accounts. «ANIMUM»00:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not the only one who has dispute with user Jrod2. This matter and complaints against Jrod2 [217] was brough up on the administrative notice board by another user. Admins did nothing to resolve it. So maybe ANIMUM» should take a look first before advocating blocking me without even understanding the situation. --VinylJoe05:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Admins, as you can see this user VinylJoe is determined to prevail in getting me somehow evicted from WP. He's now using a case at the ANI that was mainly about another user (illuminatedwax) and me, disagreeing about some commercial links he wanted to include on an audio page. It was dismissed because it was not violating guidelines. My concern is that, since he continues to make arguments against me, that he will resume his harassments. If it's within guideline, I urge someone to block him as Magnus animum recommended. If anyone can see these IP's associated with him, then please do it at once, as these are the IPs that are used by common disrupting vandals: 75.4.209.107 - 75.19.58.45 - 75.16.93.99 - 66.214.253.155 - 66.214.253.51. Thank you . Jrod215:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, fair enough, although that particular sentence makes the block sound punitive. I'm going to block User:VinylJoe for 24 hours for abusive sockpuppetry, as the socks were used to tag-team another editor in a dispute. MastCellTalk15:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
your quiz
hey, i noticed on your userpage, you have a quiz that identifies your philosophical beliefs. I wonder, is there a link for that quiz? I'd love to give it a shot.
To whom are you addressing this question? You probably want to leave this message on an individual user's talk page (User talk:ThePersonsName) rather than here. This board is for posting issues that need administrator attention. --BigDT00:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
These users (whom, judging by their relative edit histories may well be one and the same person) have both broken 3RR on the page Made in America (The Sopranos), repeatedly adding unverified "spoilers" regarding the content of the forthcoming episode. To list all the diffs would be tedious; here is a link to the page history, and the contribs pages linked in this section heading provide the required evidence. I have reported this here rather than on the 3RR noticeboard as the incident in question may involve sockpuppetry and potential incivility as well as 3RR violation. Thanks. --Codeine00:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Another bot mistagging fair use images
Resolved
After a tfd for pokemon related fair use images closed as delete^demonBot2 began deleting the tag from images and adding {{no license}}[218]. I understand that removing these tags from images is a big job to do by hand, but removing the tags from what had been up till this moment properly tagged fair use images and then tagging them as not having a tag is just wrong. If necessary the pokemon templates should be redirected to something giving a reasonable amount of time (say a month) to go through them and retag them all, or should be redirected to the plain {{fairuse}} template (which is checked for usage regularly anyway since it's deprecated). -N01:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a matter of fairuse or not, it's a matter of having a copyright tag. The copyright tags were considered invalid, so they now have no tag. ^demon[omg plz]02:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC). Just forget it ok, I'll slap a generic {{fairuse}} on it. Happy? ^demon[omg plz]02:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
User BassxForte, who is also user Vilerocks (as claimed on both user pages), admits he shares his account password with other people here [219], who apparently use it for occasional joke edits.--Atlan (talk) 01:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't let them go out onto the actual articles without my supervision, my userpage(s) are the only things I let them run wild at. BassxForte02:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This user has a history of unproductive editing and behaviour going on since January, and he is on very, very thin ice at the moment. I have made unsuccessful attempts on ANI, RFC and CN already. I plan to take it to Arbitration very soon. - Zero1328Talk?06:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about any of that. I just accidentally stumbled upon his comment on that talk page. His history of unproductive editing is therefore not really an issue here.--Atlan (talk) 13:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am unable to engage a user in mediation who continues to make allegations about me
I need some advice on how to proceed with some allegations being made against me. Please see this user's contributions. Basically, I opened an informal mediation request here in March in order, to address this user's concerns and to provide evidence that I am not involved in a vendetta as the user alleges. I invited them to participate in the discussion here. The user has not participated, seems unwilling to consider my viewpoint, and is now calling me a vandal. The user openly admits to editing under another username and I suspect that they might be the user who wrote these allegations as Anniebelles. This statement seems to support that. I have tried to pursue mediation (I feel that I cannot remain objective about this person's statements) with a neutral 3rd party. The user seems unwilling to participate in any such endeavour. I'm reporting this because a kind fellow editor, who responded to a {{helpme}} request on my talk page here, recommended this as a next step. I have also notified her on her talk page here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.TheRingess (talk) 02:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ringess, this current complaint is regarding your overall stalking of people like Sardaka, whose "good faith discussion" you removed from your talk page: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TheRingess&diff=135811311&oldid=135806648# and about how you stalk people to remove their additions, and how you go into topics, remove all links and add an often lame dmoz link and a warning to not add any more links. TheRingess has most recently gone in and removed, without apparently any consideration, the very organized and useful link sections on the Bhagavad Gita page that had been well-pruned through the good work of many editors. Fortunately that page had an editor who knew enough to revert this destruction, but in other pages, many very useful links are lost. To see examples of TheRingess's wanton removal of links, you can look at TheRingess's contributions page and do a find on dmoz or external links, or look at the arguments she has had with other editors. I believe this editor is harmful to Wikipedia. And no, I'm not Anniebelles, and I'm a man (not that it matters, but just for the record). Ganesham14:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ganesham, why have you rejected dispute resolution? You clearly have a dispute with this editor that needs discussion in a more proper forum. Instead of warning the world about what you think of TheRingess, why don't you discuss your issues with him/her directly? ~a (user • talk • contribs) 14:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry I have to subject the general community to this, but after zillions of orange "you have new messages" bars and mud-slinging on my talk page, I have to take this here. To be honest, I have no idea what the hell the issue is here. Suffice it to say Hajji Piruz (talk·contribs) (formerly Azerbaijani (talk·contribs)) and Atabek (talk·contribs) are at each other's throats for something. If I understand this correctly, and believe me I don't, Atabek claims Piruz vandalized his user page and basically stalks him and Piruz claims Atabek is making false accusations about him. They have basically used my talk page as a the site of a cage match over the last few days (see #Harassment by User:Hajji Piruz, #Re: Hajji Piruz attacks, #RFC, and #Your support for RfC). I've referred the two to dispute resolution, particularly community enforceable mediation (CEM). That venue was never explored, due to what Piruz suggested was an inability for them to cooperate. Meanwhile, multiple admins have been alerted of this (e.g. User:Thatcher131#Arbcom question, User talk:Bobak#Mediation, User_talk:Dmcdevit#Safavid_dynasty); in one or two cases the users have engaged in some of the same back-and-forth arguing that has occurred on my talk page (albeit not to the same extent). At some points, the editors have had difficulty talking to each other, due to the removal of comments made on each others talk pages (perhaps that's why they kept coming to my talk page). So then Piruz decides to open an RfC against Atabek because he feels Atabek is the whole problem (I don't agree) and he feels CEM won't work; see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Atabek. But even that's not good enough; Piruz has to claim that Atabek is trying to sabotage the RfC. Their RfArb case from April 2007 – Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan – didn't kill this dispute. Neither did any discussion with me. Neither, it seems, does the idea of community enforceable mediation. And now WP:RFC does not appear to be the right medium. Suffice it to say this is a gigantic mess. These editors are at each other's necks and the concept of assuming good faith is not as present as it should be. Again, I'm sorry for subjecting the general community to this, but this is spinning out of control. Why oh why have cool-down blocks been outlawed? -- tariqabjotu02:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is there anyway Atabek and I can take this directly to arbcom? Just him and me, and let the administrators decide what should be done. That was my first choice.
An arbcom just between Atabek and I, where the administrators review all of the evidence and make a final decision, is the only way to solve this dispute.Hajji Piruz02:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I don't know why User:Hajji Piruz/User:Azerbaijani with advice and encouragement from User:Tariqabjotu filed the RfC. The whole situation is comic. User:Hajji Piruz/User:Azerbaijani edits my user page without permission [220], intimidating me, then continues personally attacking me, and now files an RfC. All I asked the administrator for is to explain User:Hajji Piruz/User:Azerbaijani to cease harassing me, after I asked him to assume good faith, and his response was this [221]. So I don't understand why User:Tariqabjotu now claims that I am (stalking)? Hajji Piruz. I guess there is a confusion that I am not the one who filed RfC with this [222] objective, Hajji Piruz is. He is the one also taking this RfC along ethnic lines. All I am trying is to defend myself from abuse. Again, those interested (and I mean everyone) are welcome to post to my talk page as well as to RfC to discuss their opinions. But I have no desire to waste community's time on this. Atabek03:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Don't make this seem like I'm standing behind Piruz, as you wrongly suggested before. No one suggested you were stalking anyone (you're reading that sentence incorrectly) and your link showing "advice and encouragement" is being misapplied (if you asked for the best mode of dispute resolution, I would have responded as well). This is entirely about you and Piruz and no one else; the only reason this is here is to get input on how to stop this. Not how to stop Piruz, not how to stop you, but how to stop both of you and your relentless accusations and assumptions of bad faith. -- tariqabjotu04:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can anyone please explain if it is OK when one user edits other user's personal page and adds him to a category of sockpuppeteers? [223] This is how it all started. Atabek made a mistake when he just started to contribute to Wikipedia and created more than one account, however one mistake by a newbie does not give anyone grounds to vandalize his user page and present him as a notorious sockpuppeteer. Users added to such categories are those who regularly use abusive sock accounts, which is not a case with Atabek. In my opinion, User:Hajji Piruz was clearly harassing Atabek, trying to destroy his reputation. In general, I would like to draw the community’s attention to the behavior of Hajji Piruz. This user has been engaged in edit warring on Azerbaijan related articles for many months now, pushing his nationalist agenda. He has been involved in edit wars on almost every Azerbaijan related article, sometimes revert warring over such trivial issues as whether or not the territory of Azerbaijan should be referred to as Azerbaijan, or Wikiproject tag, etc. Hajji has violated his parole twice since the end of the arbcom case, which was recorded here: [224] I don’t see how this user’s contributions to Wikipedia are any usefull, as they are nothing but edit warring over very unimportant issues, and now he has gone as far as messing up other people's user pages. Grandmaster06:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The only way to settle this is to go to arbcom. Atabek still hasnt learned his lesson as he continued to make false accusations against me on the RFC talk page.
He is also attempting to sabotage the RFC by getting all of his friends from the Republic of Azerbaijan to comment. What would it look like if I went to every Iranian on Wikipedia and told them to look at the RFC?
Oh, and Grandmaster, thanks for letting everyone know that Atabek was lying. Atabek's defense was that Tengri was his friend, now you just confirmed to everyone that Atabek was lying. That category is for sockpuppeteer's. One other thing, why would a new user create two accounts in the first place?
I havent violated my parole twice since the arbcom, I've only done so once, because you manipulated an admin into thinking I broke 1rr. What are you talking about? Show the evidence or dont make the accusations. All your comments sound the same, I'm beginning to wonder if you guys arent all one person or coordinating all of this via e-mail or something.
Oh, and all these users trying to tell me what I can and cannot edit, why do you guys edit Armenian related articles huh?
Ok, here is my final proposal, and if Atabek doesnt accept, we will go to arbcom:
You will never make false accusations against me again.
You will never canvass trying to tarnish my image again.
You will never tell me what articles I can and cannot edit.
You will admit that Tengri was your sock puppet (as confirmed by Grandmaster above) and will drop the act that he was just your "friend" and you guys happened to use the same computer.
You will be respectful to all users you come into contact with and not jump to conclusions.
You will never misuse and abuse Wikipedia's rules and policies, distorting them to fit your POV again.
The ball is in your court. And note, if there is a single false accusation against me in your following reply, then I guess the deal is off...You have shown no evidence for any of the things you claim I do, so until you show evidence, any claim you make against me will be considered false (unless backed up by evidence), especially if they are the same old things you've been saying for the past couple of days.Hajji Piruz15:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Brettfern has been repeatedly warned on his talk page about removing content from various Wikipedia articles, including John O'Hurley, World Wrestling Entertainment, and Donald Trump. His most recent warning was on June 2nd for an edit to the Donald Trump article, and was warned by administrators on his talk page that he would be blocked if this continues.
Brettfern, as of today, has continued to remove content from John O'Hurley, content which is sourced and verified. I would recommend that this user be blocked for his repeated vandalism to Wikipedia. --Mr. Brown02:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'd give him a very, very stern warning about not impersonating other users, then block him if he insists on continuing to do it. --Haemo03:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, noticing his edits, it looks like he just wanted his sig to look like yours - he's changed it to make it refer to him, now. Take it as a compliment! --Haemo03:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not an admin, so blocking will not be my prerogative. I'll just keep an eye open and it anything strange is afoot, report back here. Thanks! —Gaffταλκ04:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Rwilco201 is a new editor who is in some kind of conflict with User:Mitchthrower (see also the article Mitch Thrower, its ongoing AfD and the Afd's edit history, and this seriously premature arbitration request) who is making various edits that would look like misconduct from more experienced users, but in this instance think they are basically newbie errors. For example, s/he removed my comment from the AfD [225] apparently confusing me with Mitch Thrower [226]. I left a comment in the AfD and will leave another one, but I probably can't monitor it very much due to limited wikitime. If some admin here is thinking of closing that afd when the time comes, it would probably be helpful to look in on it once in a while before then, and to check the history for other weirdness at closing time. 75.62.6.23707:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I warned him. If others agree, the user could be blocked as a sockpuppet/meatpuppet of Benito, given the usernames and edit similarities. — Carl (CBM · talk) 04:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Block review: failure to use edit summaries for PRODing
I have just blocked Burntsauce(talk·contribs·deleted contribs·logs·filter log·block user·block log) for 24 hours for a persistent failure to use edit summaries when nominating articles for deletion. While a simple failure to use summaries for regular edits can be annoying and discourteous, not using edit summaries for deletion nominations can be actively destructive. (Articles – even articles that have been watchlisted by interested parties – may disappear after a five-day 'silent' PROD.) Common sense and courtesy aside, descriptive edit summaries for deletion nominations (PROD and AfD) are also required by the relevant policies: PROD, AfD. The problem is ongoing, including no-edit-summary PRODs today and the day before yesterday. (There may be others, but frankly it's a lot of effort to manually review all of his summary-less contributions.)
He has been politely asked to use edit summaries on several occasions in the last three weeks ([227], [228], [229], [230], [231], [232]) by a number of different editors. The matter has been to AN/I once before. I really didn't want to turn to a block here, but everything short of one failed to get his attention.
Advice and suggestions are welcomed. I have offered to unblock immediately if he agrees to use edit summaries for all of his deletion nominations in the future, and attempts to use more edit summaries overall in the future. I have also warned that longer blocks will follow if he continues to ignore these policies. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Normally I would say that 24 hours is too much for something like this, but looking at the sheer magnitude of un-summarized edits he made, and considering that you did warn him on numerous occasions, I think you did the right thing. —Juansidious04:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh, I like Burntsauce's work on Wikipedia, and do not wish to condemn him for it, but the sheer lack of edit summaries and (IMHO) courtesy is unfortunate. Granted that he or she has been warned multiple times before, endorse block. I just hope he or she gets it and starts to use edit summaries. --Iamunknown05:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse block, endorse Burntsauce himself in general. Let'd hope it takes and that there are no hard feelings. --Masamage♫05:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. I don't think there is any question Burntsauce is contributing in good faith; the vast majority of his edits seem to be useful article tagging and removal of BLP-type material. He's a good contributor with a bad habit. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Admin Alkivar (talk·contribs) lifted the block two hours after it was given with the summary "ten of all trades should remember that blocks must be placed according to blocking policy." Alkivar has shown support for Burntsauce on numerous occasions preceding this resulting in several incidents in which full protection was given after one revert to a Burntsauce edit. –– Lid(Talk)09:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This unblock appears to be sheer wikilawyering. We block for disruption, and not informing people when nominating articles for deletion is both destructive and disruptive. If this editor was adequately warned, and continues to behave badly in this manner, then the block is justified. This unblock is not. MoreschiTalk09:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm as deletionist as anyone, but "submarine" prods are unacceptable. Part of what makes the prod system work is that anyone can object to deletion under it. You use a clear edit summary indicating that you are proposing deletion when you place one, period. I do hope that being blocked, even if briefly, will get this across, and that Burntsauce will begin doing so. SeraphimbladeTalk to me09:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good block in my opinion, I'm a bit disapointed with Alkivar for the unbock, with no discussion, it seems he came on at 6 this morning soley to unblock Burntsauce, I've asked him about it so hopefully we should get a response. Ryan Postlethwaite09:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose it would be wheel warring to reblock, but consensus here thus far is that the block is justified, and despite the highly patronising unblock message, Alkivar seems not to have read the blocking policy himself. There is a little section about blocking for disruption, and submarine prods are highly disruptive. I have no doubt Burntsauce is a great editor, but this little habit of illicit deletion nomination needs to stop, right here. MoreschiTalk09:48, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Give it an hour, if we get no comments, someone can reblock per consensus here until the block was supposed to expire. As you say Moreschi, using no edit summaries on prods is highly disruptive and he's been warned for it. It was a completely invalid unblock, with absolutely no discussion taking place into it. Ryan Postlethwaite09:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. TenOfAllTrades brought this up before and got support from editors, including me, for his course of action. There's no sign that Alkivar discussed his concerns with Ten before unblocking Burntsauce. Burntsauce has given no explanation or excuse for his behavior. A block is a reasonable step in alerting Burntsauce to the concerns of the community. ·:·Will Beback·:·10:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"A block is a reasonable step in alerting Burntsauce to the concerns of the community." I support the block, and I don't support the unblock, but if a block is being used as an alert, then it's served its purpose, hasn't it? Reblocking is not going to preventative - he's stopped tagging - at this point reblocking seems punitive. Riana⁂10:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
He had been offline seven hours before the block was added, meaning there's a possibility he didn't even see or experience the block, in addition to which he hasn't "stopped tagging" as he hasn't editted since the block, which was made specifically because of a tag he made the same day. –– Lid(Talk)10:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I recommende restoring the block, as it was intended to get Burntsauce's attention and can not yet have done so. Amending a block should always be discussed with the original blocking admin. Alkivar failed to do this. Neil╦10:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, if cluelessness rather than malice is the issue here, there's a script that gives you (among other things) a quick-PROD option from a scroll-down list in the edit window, and joy of joys, the script fills in an automatic, informative edit summary. It can be found among the collection at User:Voice of All/UsefulJS, though you have to install some preliminary script first, also found in that collection. MoreschiTalk12:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You could also point out the option in the preferences to be reminded to use edit summaries, though I doubt there is any way of forcing that option to be turned on, or checking if it has been turned on. Carcharoth12:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, I provided Burntsauce with detailed instructions on how to set that option in his preferences when I asked him (for the second time) to stop making summary-less PRODs [233]. In that same message I also offered (for the second time) an explanation of why deletion nominations without edit summaries were harmful and potentially disruptive, and warned him that future 'submarine' PRODs would result in a block.
Failure to use edit summaries when using any of the deletion processes (speedy, prod, or XfD) is the very definition of disruption, which is well within the bounds of the blocking policy. Endorse original block. EVula// talk // ☯ //12:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As blocks are preventative rather than punativive - how about the block can be lifted early if he agrees to provide edit summaries for any articles that he prods - all he literally is required to put (and what I put is) is "Prod'd". Problem, solved no? A reasonable editor would see that this is causing problems for the community and would comply with the request and from all accounts this is a reasonable editor. --Fredrick day13:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Frederick, that's what Ten said ... I have offered to unblock immediately if he agrees to use edit summaries for all of his deletion nominations in the future, and attempts to use more edit summaries overall in the future. Neil╦13:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) As the original blocking admin, I certainly wouldn't object to that—in fact, I explicitly made that offer to Burntsauce on his talk page, and in the message I posted here. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
User:Hetoum I has been edit warring on the Church of Kish article for quite some time, making POV edits and reverting edits by other users. The IP 72.79.62.219(talk·contribs·WHOIS) turned up to revert the article to Hetoum's version and made personal attacks on other users along the way. [235] Later Hetoum admitted on the talk page that IP belonged to him: [236]. User:Hetoum I has previously been involved in repeated sock vandalism of my personal page, inserting obscene images and making insulting comments, when he was using his previous username User:Hetoum. Please see this admin message:[237] Church of Kish page has now got protected, but I think that the admin action is necessary due to aggressive behavior of this user and his continued personal attacks on other editors: [238] I don't think that the use of such language should be tolerated on Wikipedia, as it is a clear violation of WP:NPA. Grandmaster05:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I daresay he is problematic on the verge of disruption. Incivil edit summaries and using sock-puppets to avoid 3RR is not what we expect from our contributors. --Ghirla-трёп-13:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Process --> 1/ Inform him about this thread at his talk page. 2/ If you believe he is the one who vandalized your userpage back on April 2007 (it was banned user User:Artaxiad) than you have to to perform a CheckUser. If Artaxiad is his sock than you all know the outcome. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®13:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The process is sort of complicated. Today, an editor in good standing was blocked for alleged "vandalism" after ANI forum shopping by his opponent - without any notification about the complaint on his talk page.[239] On the other hand, I waited all yesterday in vain to have a self-professed IP sock of Artaxiad to be blocked from trolling, after posting a complaint on this noticeboard. Nobody bothered to leave a comment for 24 hours. We apply different standards to self-professed IP socks of permabanned users and prolific editors in good standing as it seems. --Ghirla-трёп-14:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To Ghirla. Well, we acknowledge that we sometimes apply different standards. That is due to the personal judgments of every single admin. The thing here is that it would cost us 2 minutes to make sure we are correct before making a decision. A checkuser would save us a considerable amount of time. In that case, we won't be discussing his incivil behaviour but avoiding a ban. So my judgment here was based on time saving. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®14:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Russianname had reverted to include the same message 14 or 15 times on another user's talk page. The user is entitled to remove any message he likes from his talk page. A block for harassment like that is entirely reasonable. Neil╦14:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tajik (talk·contribs) has been banned indefinitely by the admin: [240] and the arbcom case is on a voting stage to formalize his permanent ban. [241] Despite that, Tajik is editing Safavid dynasty and other artcles under anonymous IPs and sock accounts. The checkuser request that I filed confirms that the suspicious accounts are indeed likely to belong to User:Tajik, please see Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Tajik. I’m posting this here, because I don’t now if there’s any way to bring this to the attention of the arbitrators, who might need this info in making the final decision. I hope someone will pass the checkuser results over to the arbcom members. Also, the sock accounts need to be dealt with. Grandmaster06:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
85.177.175.254 is hailing from Hamburg. The rest of IP hail from Bochum. If the edits are too similar to Tajik's one and are really related to the reasons his case was brought to the ArbCom, then revert on the spot. If that persists than you may have to sprotect the article. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®13:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If people want to edit from one account then why are you bringing it up unless its against some rule. Also please don;t accuse me of being a troll. ExtraDry13:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Account has been blocked and I've asked the members to edit from their individual accounts... which they apparently all have.--Isotope2313:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Would someone mind reviewing the indef block I issued on the above user please for being a vandalism on ly account. Deletion of material and having arguments with himself over the Dissociative identity disorder article, and then finally reported himself to AIV, having given himself a number of warnings. Khukri09:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Considering Tag-molio changed Mikecraig's signature to read "Mike Hunt", he's not entirely innocent. Can you provide specific diffs of what you state Mikecraig has done? From what I can tell of looking at the history of Richard Marsland, his edits have been good ones. Neil╦12:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Continual anon sockpuppetry from LC
There is a steady stream of vandalism from permabanned user LC, using floating IP addresses all in the renage 88.108.0.0 through 88.111.255.255: Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Light current. Is there a way of checking if there are also edits from this range by bona fide editors? Might a range block be in order? (Yes, I do realize this concerns 262,144 addresses, but that does not mean 262,144 affected users.) --LambiamTalk11:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Further to the above, I noticed that two addressess in the range were blocked as being suspected to be an open proxy or zombie computer: User talk:88.108.240.31, User talk:88.110.209.142. Many other addresses in the range are involved in suspected sockpuppetry for other sockmasters, apparently not known to be or suspected to be LC:
The range belongs to Tiscali, which I gather is a rather large European ISP from which at least some good edits also originate. I suspect that a rangeblock of that entire /13 would tend to create a lot of collateral damage. Unless there has been an unusual upsurge in LC's nuisance editing, it's probably most straightforward to WP:DENY him recognition, and semiprotect pages on a temporary basis where necessary. (He's really only concerned with being an asshole on the Ref Desk and Ref Desk guideline talk pages, and on the user/talk pages of some of the admins who have enforced his ban.)
Of course, if there's someone in the UK who is interested in pursuing an abuse complaint with his ISP, I can provide them with LC's Tiscali email address. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bear in mind the good edits are probably from LC too. i can't imagine how many socks are out there. But thesetwo users always seem available to answer LC's questions. David D.(Talk)16:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Now, considering that people are trying to limit free use, isn't it taking it up a notch by adding copyrighted, non-notable material (what a combination!) So I removed it. The last that I knew, making a dodgy parody of a song did not make it notable, unless it was succesful or acclaimed enough to meet WP:Music guidelines. Now, the person who added it is not only attacking me as a 'vandal,' but is also claiming that 'G-d is on his side,' basically, and that I'm wrong for removing copyrighted, non-notable material, and that he'll get the administrators to take action against me. He's trying to paint this as though my removing it were due more to bias than to its worth.
This is quite upsetting and rather distressing; coming on an already bad day, I had to hold harsher words to that person in silence. I've been here for years and never vandalised, and now I'm being threatened with admin castigation for doing what I have little doubts was the logical and policy-adhering thing to do. Consequently, I need administrators to (hopefully) back me up on this case in whatever way you can (by removing it yourself, by weighing in on the talk page, I don't know.) I'm rather afraid to remove the material myself without administrators' support.
The amount of drama on the Technocratic movement page has reached epic proportions. For the last month, there has basically a daily revert war between numerous editors. I've tried mediating but pretty much every user involved has some sort of conflict of interest or self-published material or something negative. I've got accusations from both sides accusing me of helping the other side, nobody seems to be willing to cite reliable sources, and... you see where I'm going with this. The following users are most involved:
See further up the board (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:M.V.E.i.). I indefinitely blocked User:M.V.E.i., a Russian user, for hate speech and repeated severe racist comments (such as the following), directed variously towards the French, Israelis, Estonians, Germans and Balts. And this is just a selection:
He has been blocked before, with no effect. He has been asked to stop multiple times (see User talk:M.V.E.i. with no effect). He is evading his short term blocks with IP sockpuppets.
I thought this was a clear and obvious indefinite block. However, Alex Bakharev overturned my block and reduced it in length to a month. I've restored it and consulted with Alex, but he is still defending the user ("... if some edit can be interpreted as a racist hateful speech, might be it is worth to ask the author if the interpretation is correct? M.V.I.e. is not a native English speaker ...", "I have strong doubts that he meant something racist in his speech"), and I am wondering if I am going mental, because as far as I can tell the racism and intent is obvious. Was this a valid indef block? Neil╦14:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at his block log [242], I'd say some drastic action is needed. I'm not going to unblock, and if no-one does the ban is effective. Failing that, block him for a month, and warn him that next time it is three months, then he's out.--Docg14:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We have a separate noticeboard to discuss community blocks. The user is certainly problematic but I see no particular "racist" connotations in his comments. Estonians and Russians are supposed to belong to the same race, for a start. Perhaps he's mad about the Holocaust denial on the part of the Estonian government. A month-block was warranted, but indef block looks to have been motivated by off-wiki considerations. --Ghirla-трёп-14:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Describing the French as all gay isn't racist? Describing all Estonians as having SS members for grandparents isn't racist? Really? And I don't understand your comment about "off-wiki considerations". Neil╦14:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is an extreme form of xenophobia and nationalism rather than racism. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another race or races. Are you sure that the Russians and the French belong to two distinct races? --Ghirla-трёп-14:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is normal english usage to say "The Dutch Race" or "The Irish Race" - race is a very poorly defined word - see racism for the subtleties. WilyD14:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Race: I. A group of persons, animals, or plants, connected by common descent or origin.
In the widest sense the term includes all descendants from the original stock, but may also be limited to a single line of descent or to the group as it exists at a particular period.
— Oxford English Dictionary (Online Edition
Then perhaps we should stop using vague, fuzzy terms in block summaries. Once upon a time, I was told on this very noticeboard that speaking about racism between Jews and Arabs is technically incorrect and so better avoided. --Ghirla-трёп-14:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you arguing semantics? That's not at all the point here. His comments are clearly absolutely inappropriate, whether you want to call them racist, xenophobic or otherwise.--Atlan (talk) 14:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Because "racist" is a stronger term than "nationalist" or "xenophobic". A person indulging in racist remarks should be blocked indefinitely, while a person who makes nationalist remarks is just that... a nationalist; we have plenty of them in the project. Nobody defends the guy's comments; they indeed deserve a month-long block, but he should be given the last chance to repent and reform. --Ghirla-трёп-15:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, i don't make any distinction. Racist, xenophobic or my mamma name calling are all meant to make others feel like s**t. Calling someone a donkey, stupid arab, zionist israeli/jew or a supermacist american are all the same. I still don't fathom Wikipedia stance on this matter. All personal attacks of any nature should be treated w/ the same degree. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®15:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Neil's comment that "He is evading his short term blocks with IP sockpuppets" appears to have been overlooked in the above discussion. Is this editor currently evading this block? --ElKevbo14:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure the closing editor will take into consideration the possible sockpuppets as well as the weight of each argument/comment. Closing admins are generally wonderful at this. If they err though, there is always DRV (again). :-) Mahalo. --Ali'i15:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like User:One's conclusion of the {{afd}} as delete fully conformed with policy. But, I wrote User:One, asking whether the current controversy stirred up when Peter Brownback and Keith J. Allred, the officers presiding over Omar Khadr and Salim Ahmed Hamdan's military commissions dropped all charges against the two men gave him sufficient discretion to restore the article without going through a time-consuming deletion review.
Brownback and Allred dropped the charges because the Military Commissions Act of 2006 only authorized the trial of unlawful enemy combatants, not merely enemy combatants.
[[User:One hasn't been online in a couple of days. And this controversy is a current event. So, can I ask here:
Does a closing administrator have the discretion to restore articles under circumstances like this, without going through a deletion review?
If the original closing administrator isn't available, do other administrators have this authority?
Just to inform everyone, I've blocked the above user for abusive sockpuppetry, He created User:TortureIsBad yesterday to vandalise mine and H's userpage and this was confirmed by Dmcdevit through a checkuser request, I'm still in a bit of shock myself, but the evidence for it is here. Ryan Postlethwaite15:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bad block. We don't ban indefinitely for abusive sockpuppetry. From the actions of the trollsock though, it was plain trolling and nothing else. Change the block duration to 72 hours. — Nearly Headless Nick{C}15:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
RJASE1 has been a good contributor, counter-vandalism type, etc. I guess the most innocuous explanation is that it was an ill-conceived prank. Or maybe Ryan's and H's constant, vocal advocacy of Bush/Cheney pushed him over the edge :) 72 hours is OK, although I'd feel better about it if we heard an explanation or apology. MastCellTalk15:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
72 hours is a bit soft for a blatantly disruptive sock, but I would recommend lightening the block with a strong warning to not try this sort of thing again. Riana⁂15:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've reduced it down to 72 hours, I would have prefered an explanation first, but I'm happy with 72 hours. I've explained that we would like one when he reutrns. Ryan Postlethwaite15:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do always prefer a 1 week block in similar situations. It gives the blocked user more time to think about what s/he's done bad and try to calm down. But well, it'd be a bit weird to keep changing the duration back and forth. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®15:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Request for outside admin review
I'd like to ask for another set of eyes on akathisia and related articles. Dr CareBear (talk·contribs) appeared recently and has been tendentiously reinserting unsourced and unencyclopedic material in this and many related articles. If you check his talk page, you'll see attempts to bring him around, which proved fruitless. After hitting 3 reverts, several new accounts sprung up to continue his crusade. These were identified as socks by checkuser and blocked, after which yet another sock, NetCafe (talk·contribs), popped up. I think this is a clear-cut case of disruption and abusive sockpuppetry, but at this point several of the admins who watch medical articles (myself, User:Davidruben) have gotten sucked in, and I'd like some outside scrutiny regarding the situation and the appropriateness of the actions taken. Thanks. MastCellTalk16:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
IP blocked --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 19:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
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