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The CfD result regarding American women novelists ignored at Amanda Filipacchi

• Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 April 24#Category:American women novelists
• Amanda Filipacchi
• Obiwankenobi and The Devil's Advocate

The above-linked CfD was closed as;

“ The result of the discussion was: The result, by a fairly large margin in both numbers and arguments, is in favor of merging the categories back together at Category:American novelists, while keeping the women novelists seperate Category:American women novelists because it is a recognized field of study in the literature. {{All included}} and/or {{Distinguished subcategory}} should be added to the latter so that this does not happen again. Can someone with AWB or a similar tool do this soon, given the frighteningly large amount of media coverage focused on these categories and related discussion? ”

I did just that at the Amanda Filipacchi article...IMO there was no reason to wait for the bot script to come about in order to address some of the more high-profile articles of this debacle...but was reverted once by Obiwan, and again by TDA. So rather than perpetuate an edit war, admin intervention will apparently be needed to enforce a consensus decision and prevent disruption by these two users. Tarc (talk) 02:18, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Just came across this myself. It takes a hell of a lot of gall to claim of a just-closed CFD that " this is a losing a battle" [1]. Picking the article most certain to cause outrage as the locus of this defiance is approximately as WP:POINTy as putting that article up for deletion, and just as futile. Mangoe (talk) 03:02, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• There has been no decision against categorizing by century. People in Category:20th-century American novelists and Category:21st-century American novelists do not need to be in the overall Category:American novelists. There is absolutely no reason for such duplication. Anyway, Filipacchi is on List of American novelists, where if someone really wanted to marginzalize her they could fairly easily, as has been done in the past by removing Stephanie Meyer from that list.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:07, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
  • • We've established loads of reasons for duplication, and who is that keeps claiming we can't have duplication? That's not true. Eventually, the duplication will be removed through technical means, but for now, stop diffusing the categories. This obsession with unhelpful tasks that piss people off needs to stop. Viriditas (talk) 03:47, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Your opinion on the matter at this point is entirely irrelevant. These BLPs are to be categorized back into Category:American novelists and Category:American women novelists, that's all there is to it. What you choose to do after the fact regarding 20th, 21st century or any other categorizes is academic. Tarc (talk) 03:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
    • No, the decision is that we will not remove articles from Category:American novelists to place them in Category:American women novelists. There is no decision against moving them to Category:20th-century American novelists or Category:American historical novelists. Those are legitmate diffusing categories and there is absolutely no reason not to diffuse. If you think we should not have Category:20th-century American novelists, you are free to take it to a CfD, but while it exists it is a 100% legitimate diffusion category, and there is no reason to fight diffusion.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:16, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Your interpretation of the matter is so divorced from reality that we're either in "I'm not listening" or "Just plain doesn't get it" territory. Tarc (talk) 03:25, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Suggest you diffuse the other 4,000 American novelists into their respective century sub-categories first before you do Filipacchi. Otherwise the unavoidable impression is that you are unpleasantly and indefensibly obsessed with the category her biography is in. Walk away, drop the stick. Andreas JN466 10:31, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment(edit conflict):I've been watching this whole fiasco from the sidelines. Seeing this pop up at the bottom of the noticeboard made me think of a scene from a painting (or perhaps a movie, it was quite a while ago) I saw. Attila and his horde were advancing down a hill upon an unsuspecting settlement. With this huge debacle, and the following media storm, I can only imagine in horror the Chinese fire drill that will result. All while this plays in the background. ^{Alles Klar,} Herr Kommisar 03:14, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking more of this. At any rate abstracting the principle of the CFD result (i.e., don't diffuse people by gender, race, or anything else likely to set off the "ghetto" accusations) and then getting on with doing anything else but this what everyone needs to do, at least for a couple of weeks. Mangoe (talk) 04:02, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Stop diffusing the goddamn categories. Viriditas (talk) 03:39, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Hello friendly denizens of ANI, and allow me to apologize in advance for having been partially responsible for bringing what is basically a content dispute here. The reason I felt it might be worthwhile coming before you is an interesting point of policy - how does community consensus interact with guidance, in this case, this particular guidance: Wikipedia:Categorization#Categorizing_pages, which states "In addition, each categorized page should be placed in all of the most specific categories to which it logically belongs. This means that if a page belongs to a subcategory of C (or a subcategory of a subcategory of C, and so on) then it is not normally placed directly into C. For exceptions to this rule, see Non-diffusing subcategories below."

We have a very crisp and specific example here in the guise of a famous novelist that launched a storm of epic proportions against our little wiki-ship - I think Ms. Filipacchi has actually done us a lot of good, ultimately, by pushing us to think hard about what categorization means, and how we might be giving an impression of sexism or racism, and why we need to do better. So, thanks to her for that.

Now, we have a CFD, which closes as "keep + merge" - meaning, all women novelists would be also bubbled up to Category:American novelists.

That much is clear, and is currently being done. However, here is where it gets fuzzy - what happens next? I can map out a few possible scenarios:

1. community consensus was firm and clear, and all women novelists shall forever remain American novelists - not to be diffused. The community, unfortunately, was mum on a few other points - like, what about men?

a)In the interest of fairness, should all male novelists, even those that have been diffused to deep subcats, bubble up to American novelists too? Then that basically suggests the following conclusion: henceforth, in the American novelists tree, all categories are non-diffusing, and we bubble up the whole shebang (Note for the record: there are 3000 novelists not in the head cat today, so get your bots ready) I'm not sure if the community said that, but maybe they did.

b) Or, should all male novelists be treated as before, eligible to be diffused. If this is the case, then we have a stranger situation - in a few months time, after the gnomes are done diffusing all of the men, there will be only women left in American novelists. Ah, the irony!

Either way, if you take this to its conclusion, you end up in two strange worlds (1) Where everyone is in American novelists or (2) where only women are in American novelists. I'm not sure either is desirable. Remember, before this whole debacle started, Category:American novelists was tagged with a template that asked people to diffuse - so clearly consensus leading up to this was that the cat should be diffused.

1. Here's another option - community consensus was that women novelists should be bubbled up, and then henceforth treated like their male colleagues. If this is the case, then diffusion to a by-century cat once they're there (which I did, and have done to several other bios, male and female, that have hit my watchlist), is perfectly reasonable. (For the record, this is my own personal position)

A counter-argument could be made here as follows - That's all fine and good Obi, but (a) I don't like the century cats or (b) the century cats should be non-diffusing. But I haven't heard anyone make either of those arguments.

1. A third option is what I might call Filipacchi-exceptionalism. The argument here is (and this has already been made above)is that this bio is now so famous, and she was so dismayed at not being in the American novelist cat, that we should keep her there, no matter what. The other women and men can be diffused, no-one will care - but she must stay. There may be good reasons for this, having to do with reputation, letting-storms-blow-over, not-poking-a-lion-with-a-stick (esp when she has a NY times pulpit), etc.
2. A fourth option, which we might call the ostrich option, is to say "there is so much media around this, let's just give in, stick them all in American novelists, and hope the attention goes away" - then after a few months, we can get back to categorizing and diffusing the way we always did (remembering, of course, to not diffuse gendered categories). So the community then says, don't touch anyone in American novelists for a month or a year, then back to business.

So that's my brief analysis of this story. I welcome your thoughts, and I'm sure there are other options/interpretations, and I will of course abide by whatever you want us to do here, but please be very clear on the guidance - going forward, what exactly is allowed in terms of diffusion from American novelists - can everyone be diffused? only men? Everyone but Filipacchi? Everyone but that specific set of women who were in the American women novelists category as of May 2? And does the guidance decided here affect other categories, like Category:French novelists or Category:Polish poets, etc.? Cheers, --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Editors should not be categorizing and diffusing, as that makes it impossible to find anything. Wikipedia:Categorization is a guideline and its current implementation does not work. We need to take categorization tasks out of the hands of obsesive editors and make them completely automated. You guys had your chance and you blew it. Now, step away. Viriditas (talk) 04:00, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

+1 ^^ Exactly this. The obsession with arbitrary "too big" limits on categories leading to increasingly useless "diffusion" just makes the category system useless as anything other than a self perpetuating plaything. Categorise every thing for everything that it is (which we deem notable enough). An author goes in "Authors". US people go in "US People", etc... Each category record reflects a single data point for a single item. Then use the intersects to search. If that means some articles have hundreds of categories, or some categories contain (god forbid) tens of thousands of things, then so be it. That's how the world we are documenting is structured. We should record all of the data as it is, and allow it to be searched in any way based on this data. The technical issues of how this information is displayed and searched will need to be solved, but trying to guess the result of any potential search by creating a zillion over specific ghettoised "subcategories" as we do now is unachievable. They aren't categories at all, they are search terms... I'm not even going to touch on the potential it includes and perpetuates for "attack/slur categories", but the impact of that is far from negligible. Begoon ^talk 04:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

As I've said before, indeed - this approach around high-level facets is definitely the way we should be going. But we're not at a bar all having beers together - TDA and I have been dragged before ANI to receive a smack-down. Has the community, e.g. the broad consensus, changed? Did some big RFC somewhere say "no more diffusion, no more specific categories"? I'd love to end up there, but we aren't there yet, so sanctioning us for not fulfilling that utopia right now seems a bit over eager. Let it be known that as we push for category intersections, I am all over that and even made a prototype of it at Category:Nigerian novelists. But that's not yet the consensus path as far as I know. Cheers!--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:07, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

That all seems well and good so long as you are talking about individual people who can be subject to fairly simple classifications like you describe. However, you are still going to need those more specific sub-cats to cover subjects of more specific interest where you can't have some straight-forward intersection. Surely you aren't suggesting we shouldn't have Category:Kennedy family or that it can be easily addressed with some intersection of other widely-used categories. How about Category:William Shakespeare or ones about events such as Category:World War II? Maybe what people are suggesting can limit the amount of diffusion necessary, but there would still need to be quite a bit of it in order for categories to serve their desired purpose.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:10, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course you can have a category "Kennedy Family". It's an additional data point concerning the articles you include in it. Provided it's deemed notable you create it and add it to all articles concerned. What you don't do is remove the members of your new category from other categories they belong to, like "TV miniseries", "People", Women or "US Presidents". Same goes for "World War II" and your Shakespeare example. As ObiWan says, though, this is probably the wrong place for this big discussion - I just wanted to agree with Viriditas' point, and maybe expand on it a bit. Begoon ^talk 05:17, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Viriditas raised his personal opinion that is unsupported by any consensus here as though it somehow has relevance. Adding sub-categories and removing parent categories is not suddenly prohibited. What this really amounts to is that the Amanda Filipacchi article is getting special attention because she was in the press on this issue. Even now this sort of category switch happening on another article generally would and does occur without incidence. No policy or consensus is actually being violated as replacing a broader gender-neutral category with a more specific gender-neutral category is not the same as "ghettoizing" novelists by gender. It is, in fact, a compromise measure that has not been rejected by any consensus.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:22, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

It should be prohibited when obsessive editors engage in disruptive category diffusion that brings the entire mainstream media down on us and instead of listening to their criticism, attacks them in response and continues on their merry, obsessive way. No, I'm sorry, but you guys need to stop this unusual obsession with category diffusion and find something useful to do. Wikipedia isn't therapy. Viriditas (talk) 06:28, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I think we're pretty clear on your POV here. I will take your recommendation under consideration. That said, when the mainstream media gets it wrong, as they did in the main this time, I usually just feel free to ignore them - beaucoup de bruit pour rien. Is wikipedia's clunky categorization system really the front line of the sexism problem in the world? I mean, if we solve that, have we made a big dent in the problems that women face in the world? No.

In the meantime, do you have any actual violations that merit sanction here? I do note that JPL was proposed for a categories topic ban just a few days ago, and was closed in a pretty snowy fashion. Personally, I've probably categorized < 100 bios in the past week or so, so I'm not exactly an obsessive machine, and I'm almost positive I haven't ghettoized anyone. In fact, I de-ghettoized Maya Angelou, who was a feature article candidate but her categorization was besmirched in the media - I fixed that. :)

Also, since you seem to be a fan of an all-inclusive Category:American novelists category, can we count on you to volunteer to start bubbling the 3000 bios up the tree? I mean, do you actually care enough to do something about it, or are you more the rock-throwing type? (I kid :) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 06:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• The fact is that plenty of men and women were not included in the main category at the outset of this because they were included in non-gendered sub-categories of American novelists. Just look at any number of sub-categories and you will see both men and women who are not included in American novelists because they are included in a gender-neutral subcat. I don't think the intention of the CfD was that every single person in every sub-category of American novelists (currently 6792 people) be added to the American novelists category.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:04, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
  • And, just exactly what is wrong with that? With alpha sortable menu options at the top, I can find exactly what I'm looking for anyway. If we had a well designed category system, we wouldn't be diffusing anything, and frankly, all of this effort spend diffusing categories can be better spent improving articles. Let the bots deal with the categories. Viriditas (talk) 04:09, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Viriditas. Allow me to invite you to view a prototype I created here: Wikipedia_talk:Category_intersection#A_working_category_intersection_today - would love your input and feedback. For the record, I agree, it would be great if we could get to some sort of category intersection, and have larger head cats. However, we're not there yet - we have a prototype that could be evolved, and wikidata is on it's way - but until then, I don't recall community consensus to rescind the guidance for categorization - so why should we stop paying attention to it? Best regards, --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:26, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• This assumes you know the novelist's name or that you are even looking for a specific novelist. I think Obi's addition of Catscan to the top of the category page was actually a very good way of addressing the desire for a single comprehensive list without having some big clutter of entries. Until there is an actual function that would, with the same or greater level of ease, serve the same purpose as creating more specific sub-categories then we should work with the current system. The objection was that women were being systematically moved out of the parent category to a gender-specific sub-category, but not men. We do not have that situation as plenty of men are in these sub-categories and not the parent category.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:30, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Another question for V (and others advocating full membership in American novelists) - should we also consider bubbling this all up to American writers? That way, we can see all writers, no matter what type, in one category. Then, we could move all the writers up another level, so that we can see all writers, artists, etc, all in one place, for convenience? Diffusion is there for a reason, and until we have a better category system, we'll be in big trouble if we start un-diffusing large trees - as it's not clear where to stop. Is Category:American novelists an exception to all rules now? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:36, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

No, they should all be upmerged to Category:Humans. Or perhaps that's discriminatory to some famous apes, so Category:Apes would be better. —Xezbeth (talk) 06:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The only people who should be "bubbled up" are people who were excluded from a generic category based on race, gender, sexuality or religion. If American novelists end up being diffused from Category:American novelists to century categories, then I suggest Wikipedia would be wise to start with the men, as otherwise outside observers are very likely to get the wrong impression whenever the American novelists category is removed from a female writer's biography. You want to be able to point to hundreds of diffusing edits to male novelists' biographies (i.e. edits removing Category:American novelists from the article, and replacing it with a category like 20th-century American novelists) that were made under the exact same rationale. Andreas JN466 11:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I think you would not want to "start" with any specific gender as if the category becomes entirely female that could raise questions as well or if someone sees an editor in the process of depopulating an exclusively female version of the category they may only see an editor systematically removing women without catching on that the men are already gone. Perhaps we should avoid Filipacchi for some time until it becomes abundantly obvious that no gender or individual is being targeted. If people see her removed from the category and then notice or are told that the category is otherwise empty, it would make things a lot less contentious.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Look, this isn't (on one level at least) all that hard. Given the outcome of the CFD, any solution to whatever categorization problem there is which takes the "women X" out of "X people" is going to be unsatisfactory. If the guideline says otherwise, then it's time to talk about changing it. And if we can't come to a consensus about that, it's time to rethink the whole categorization mechanism (and I'm personally betting that we'll get to that eventually). But however any of that goes, ostensibly mechanical application of anyone's interpretation of the guideline against the explicitly stated outcome of the CFD, at the article which is the locus of the original complaint, is a Reichstag-class level of WP:POINTy behavior. Taking the person's article who is rattling our cage in the media and making it an object example of one's defiance is deserving of a vacation, and a forced vacation if one doesn't back down. Right here don't need to discuss to the bitter end, or even any further, whatever solution needs to be worked out, but anyone who diffuses that particular article needs to be blocked if they go at it again. Mangoe (talk) 10:25, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. There are nearly 4,000 novelists to diffuse from Category:American novelists (if that is indeed what is going to be done). Why anyone would want to start with Filipacchi beats me. You can diffuse her when the vast majority of men have been diffused, otherwise it will just look like more petty harassment and revenge editing. Andreas JN466 10:54, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah but having diffused all the 17th 18th and 19th century American Novelists the 20th century list is going to be so much smaller and more manageable, and won't have anywhere near 4000 items. John lilburne (talk) 14:10, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Does the CFD ruling apply only to American novelists? What about Americans in other professions? What about novelists of other nationalities? Categorisation should be consistent across the entire system, having special rules just for Americans or Novelists is completely unacceptable. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Dito women. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:16, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• The ruling is the ruling. Apply it with common sense either directly or by analogy when needed. There is an incredible lack of common sense on display by anyone advocating that Filapacchi need be an initial target of removal from Category:American novelists yet again.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 13:52, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The CFD ruling applies narrowly to the issue of American novelists, that being the set of categories under specific discussion here. But I think it serves as a useful precedent for other, similar categories - and that this issue shows in general that we need to revise the Category guidelines. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:54, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• My read of the consensus at the CFD is clear, and I'm having a hard time seeing how overrulling that consensus is not a prime example of Disruptive Editing. Could someone explain how a guideline trumps a specific CFD? UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:54, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Well, I didn't even really pay much attention to the CfD when it was happening so I really didn't look at the result. Looking at it now, I don't read the consensus as being "no article can be removed from the parent category when moved to a gender-neutral sub-category" but more as "no article can be removed from the parent category just to be moved to a gendered sub-category" and I feel the changes being made were consistent with that principle. To Jayen's point above, I don't actually think anyone was "starting" with the Filipacchi article as many other articles for male and female novelists were getting moved to those gender-neutral sub-categories. It is instead that people only noticed the change on the Filipacchi article because more people were looking at the article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 14:32, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• The entire point of the debate was that removing female novelists from the main category was somehow interpreted as saying that they were not actual for-reals American novelists. The result of the discussion was that the articles removed from that main category should be put back into that category, while the articles for female novelists should remain at the subcategory as well. OK, so is the subject of this article an American novelist? Yup. Is the subject of this article a female American novelist? Yup. So now I'm asking you to please revert your edit here and restore the main category to the article, in conformance to the consensus at CFD of which you are now aware. Thank you. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 14:49, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Actually, the edit was already reverted. However, looking over the votes in the CfD, I would say the consensus was that the American women novelists category issue was a problem because women were removed from the parent category, while men remained. Most calls for a merge or restoring articles to the parent category specifically justified it on the basis of the parent category becoming exclusively male. As noted, moving men and women out of the parent category is not creating that issue. I do not think one should take the admin finding of consensus as indicative of the actual community perspective. To me it seems as though moving all articles in the American novelists category, without regard for gender, to gender-neutral sub-categories is perfectly respecting the major objections raised in the CfD, even if it doesn't fit the letter of the admin's closing statement.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:10, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Both men and women should be upmerged to the parent. Equal opportunity categorization is the only solution. Truthkeeper (talk) 22:08, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Compromise

Thanks to all above for their thoughtful comments - I've learned a lot, and I appreciate better why this has caused an uproar. To me, it seems to be an issue mostly of timing and scale, not of principle - e.g. I'm not sure people think Category:American novelists should *never* be diffused, just that we shouldn't start by diffusing to non-gendered cats women who have written articles about wikipedia. Fair enough. So that said, here is my proposed compromise:

• No more women can be diffused out of Category:American novelists to a non-gendered century-specific cat (e.g. Category:19th-century American novelists or to a non-gendered genre cat like Category:American romantic fiction writers) until there are at least 1000 men, including 10 Pulitzer prize winning men, that have been moved out of the head category first. I noted above that I've already moved Hemingway - I will go after Faulkner next. In addition, for Filipacchi specifically, we should keep her in the head cat for at least one month regardless of what happens - after which point she can be diffused as long as there are at least 3 (male or female) Nobel prize in literature winners in the same category as her. In this way, she will remain in the head cat at least until this all blows over. Finally, a (self-imposed) wet minnow to Obiwan as a way of helping him get a clue. I welcome your thoughts and modifications to the above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:55, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be conflating two issues. The consensus was that female American novelists should be in both the category for American novelists and the subcategory for female American novelists. All of the other issues surrounding century-specific categories, diffusion, etc, are subordinate to that consensus. Suggesting that we comply with that consensus "until this all blows over" is rubbish - have an RFC and come up with a better solution, then. But the CFD result should not just be handwaved away. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:28, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ultra. I totally appreciate where you're coming from. However, as noted above, if we take that specific interpretation of consensus to its logical conclusion, we end up with an odd result. (I note that the consensus never ruled on whether post-facto diffusion to non-gendered sub cats was allowable or not - the consensus was mum on that issue, so it's really an interpretation you're putting forth).

If it is allowed to diffuse men in Category:American novelists to century-or genre-specific sub-cats, but the women are untouchable, then the result after a few months will be that Category:American novelists will only contain women. That would be a rich irony indeed - and perhaps, frankly, deserved :) But do you understand why this is not desirable or logical? On the other hand, if it's also *not* allowed to diffuse men, then that means, logically, all cats under Category:American novelists have now become non-diffusing, and to be fair, we have to bubble up everyone who's not currently in the parent - around 3000 bios. My response here may be helpful in understanding why that is not desirable either ==> Category_talk:American_novelists#By_century_sub-cats. Best regards, and appreciate your contributions here. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:44, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• • That compromise sounds eminently sensible to me. (At least, if there are subsequent arguments about whether diffusion is sensible or not, these arguments will be carried out on the backs of male writers.) Andreas JN466 23:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

So, uh, why is having a very big category a bad thing?

Let me first admit that I have not read all of discussion about this, but I will ask my question anyway and perhaps someone can point me to the answer - why is having 6700 (or 10000, or more) listings in a category a bad thing? If readers of WP see that a person is in the category "People from Earth" and in "People from Africa" (or "People from Mali" etc), what does it matter how many entries the main category has? I think it is clear from the media reports that readers have been confused and upset by the diffusion of categories. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:17, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Not only are readers upset, editors are too (well, I am). And the media has it right, imo. Truthkeeper (talk) 16:44, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

It's a great question - and I think it points to a fundamental flaw and confusion with the way the current system works. There are two ways of fixing what you're asking for:

1. Alternative 1: Put everyone in every category all the way up the chain. This would mean, all American politicians would be in Category:American politicians, as well as in any specific cats below, and in the more generic cats all the way up the tree, such as Category:American political people, Category:American people by occupation, Category:People_by_nationality_and_occupation, Category:People_by_nationality, Category:People, Category:Humans,Category:Hominina,Category:Homininae, Category:North_American_people, Category:People_of_the_Americas, Category:People_by_region, and so on. To implement this in a generic fashion, we'd literally have to add dozens or, depending on depth and complexity of parenting, hundreds of categories to every single page in the wiki.

Take a look at Category:People - can you see how easy it is to find those in need of better categorization? a few entries, sit there, waiting to be sub-catted. What would happen if People had 500,000 entries? How could you find the ones in need of a better cat?

Even if you went to the page Category:American politicians, there would literally be tens of thousands of entries competing for your attention. If you wanted to find someone who wasn't yet put into a more specific category, you'd have to read all of the bios, one by one. So it would basically be impossible to find articles in need of diffusing/sub-categorization.

It would also be extremely brittle. Suppose someone comes along and wants to create a new category, called Category:People from North Africa. In the current system, it would just mean adding the top level cats, Category:Algerian people and Category:Tunisian people and so on to Category:People from North Africa. But if you're not diffusing, you now have to edit every single bio, tens and tens of thousands of them, in order to get the full complete set visible in Category:People from North Africa. So a 5 minute edit today to create a potentially useful category would turn into weeks or months worth of work.

Finally for the reader, it would become meaningless - Category:People would have 500,000 entries, Category:Humans would have 500,000 entries - what would the point be?

1. Alternative 2: Don't put everyone in every category up the chain, continue to diffuse, but have the option, when needed, to "display" everyone in all sub-cats of a given cat recursively. I gave some examples of how to do this elsewhere, but go to Category:American novelists and click the link at the top for an example. I think #2 is the better option. It would be nice if they just built this into the wiki. May be you can try to make that happen? This isn't the forum, right here, though. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

So, the problem with categories that have many listings is that there would be many listings in the categories? And that would be silly because readers would not want to see that someone is from the US, they would prefer to know that someone is from Queens (because Queens is such an important borough of New York city that it is globally recognized)? (By the way, I'm not suggesting that we put every article into every category "all the way up the chain", but I'm sure tools could be created to painlessly handle that situation if that were the case.) Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:57, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

DC, I've tried to explain, and obviously failed. If you want to swing by my talk page I am willing to try again - but it's a waste of space to discuss the theory and practice of hierarchical categorization and taxonomies, the challenges of non-diffusing categories, and how this might influence a given search here any more. Sorry.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:29, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment: First off, this discussion belongs somewhere other than ANI. Second, there are two answers to your titular question:

1. It isn't.
2. It depends on what the category is and how big it is. Once you get 10K articles, it's unnavigable or meaningless. I think a bigger question is, "why are articles in daughter categories automatically removed from mother categories" pbp 18:31, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The concept of a category being "unnavigable" is an odd one. Do readers go to categories to find things, or do they see categories at the bottom of the article they are reading? I suspect it is the latter. Even if a category is too large to conveniently browse, it can be used in searches. And those searches would return the results that I think our readers expect. If I am looking for the article on a novelist whose name I cannot recall, am I likely to know that Herman Melville is not an "American novelist", but is an "American male novelist" "American men novelist" or a "19th-century American novelist"? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:18, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The author of Moby-Dick was actually categorized as both a "male writer" and a "men novelists". But not a straight novelist (pun not really intended). As though that's what people are looking for! This is now theatre of the absurd and if I were writing for the press would have a field day. Truthkeeper (talk) 19:28, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Herman Melville was an american who, among other things, wrote novels in the 19th century. So, he is in category Category:19th-century American novelists. What part of "19th-century American novelists" do you not understand? Try this - take your finger and cover up the word "19th-century" - see that? Wow - he now looks like an American novelist. Read WP:Categorization again please.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:39, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations, this discussion has got me at the point where I believe that anybody in any subcategory of American novelist should also be in the mother category! Just like Louis Armstrong isn't just a jazz cornetist, he's an American musician, and as such, he should be in the parent category pbp 22:24, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment - people who are depopulating categories without understanding that our best American novelists now are no longer categorized as novelists really need to step back and stop now. Please pick one centralized place to discuss and wait for consensus to develop. I feel very very strongly about this - am not happy to see the novelist taken out of Faulkener, Twain, Hemingway, Hathworne, etc (that's as far as I got on my watchlist). I'm willing to take a block or a ban for this - that's how strongly I feel. Truthkeeper (talk) 18:44, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• I agree! There seems to be an insatiable need for some editors to somehow show they were "right" but emptying out a category that doesn't *have* to be emptied. Jumping in and taking Twain, Hemingway, etc., out of American novelists? Sheesh. It reminds me of the famous punk lyric "I want to be stereotyped. I want to be classified."[2] Please, someone in the press, if anyone is still writing about this, work that quote into your pithy observations. The Workhouse Category Editor isn't sexist or racist, they just crave order.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 18:57, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

No-one was "taken out" - they were simply classified into a more specific categorization by century. We do this all over the wiki - just look at the Category:Poets tree. ==> Category:20th-century American novelists - most of the letters in that name spell A M E R I C A N N O V E L I S T S. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Not true. Hemingway is relegated as a mere writer and his achievement of writing novels has been removed. It's wrong. Truthkeeper (talk) 19:47, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Diffs or it didn't happen. Please don't make accusations that you can't back up. Thanks. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:04, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

[3]. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:14, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

sigh. Did you scroll down, and look through the list of categories he is in? Even after my edit, he remained safely in Category:20th-century American novelists. Can you please stop with the bogus accusations???? I didn't remove a single bio from "American novelists", I just moved some to "X century american novelists" - which is again a rather humdrum thing called category diffusion that happens ALL THE TIME.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:24, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

As noted above, there is a 20th-century American novelists category that was added when the American novelists category was removed. However, it was added lower down where the American novelists category was originally so it is not as visible. I fixed that to keep the listing alphabetical and so that category is now more prominent.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:30, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, now that it's sorted I see what's been done. My diffs are set so as not to show the entire page - so, nope, didn't see it. It's really confusing though and still not being done consistently. The women are being kept in the American novelists category but the men not. I'd still like to see a centralized discussion brought to a wikiproject - either novels or literature - and see it mentioned there and garner input. Having discussions all over the place, on barely watched cat pages and on individual talk pages isn't helpful. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:42, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi TruthKeeper. Like you, I am for consistency, and if you see an edit I've made which is not consistent, please let me know (on my talk plz) - I am actually quite careful about these, especially now. If you just read diffs, and don't look at the full category list, you may not understand the full reasoning/scope of the changes. Secondly, as to why are women being kept and men moved, I hope you realize that I and TDA have today been dragged before ANI - that's this thread - for the crime of moving our intrepid NY times columnist from Category:American novelists to Category:20th-century American novelists - I suppose one might say we "ghettoized" her by century. That is our crime, and we await judgement. The atmosphere has become so poisonous that as of now, I am no longer going to touch any women novelist bios, I'm just going to be fixing men going forward. I targeted a few big names though on purpose, per BRD - it gets a discussion going. You don't want to start with bios nobody knows, do all this work to diffuse, then find out consensus has moved in the other way. Better to go after whales, and deal with the fallout - that's why your watchlist is lighting up. Now, the question before you, given your reverts to date is (1) Do you like/don't like the by-century american novelist cats. If you don't like them, bring them to CFD, that's the centralized place, and the community can decide to delete them. If you're ok with them, you'd then have to find a way to either (a) accept that they are diffusing, which will mean that in a few months time, there will be ZERO bios in Category:American novelists (all having been diffused) - looks at Category:Poets for an example or (b) argue somehow that, like gender/ethnic categories, these by-century-cats should *also* be non-diffusing. But that will be a harder argument to make, as we have diffusing-by-century-writer-cats all over this tree, it's common practice, so I'm not sure why an exception would be made here. Finally, I would appreciate an apology for the bogus accusation, I'm a big fan of Papa and would never knowingly do him harm.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:58, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

This discussion should serve as an illustration of the problem here. Was Ernest Hemingway removed from the category "American novelists"? A common sense answer would be yes, because Hemingway is no longer in that category (having been removed in this edit). Obiwankenobi says no, presumably because subcategories are logically included in parent categories. While I understand the reasoning, the fact remains that when a reader looks at the bottom of the page, they will not find "American novelists" (although they will find both "20th-centuy American novelists" and "20th-century American writers", even though "20th-centuy American novelists" is a subcategory of "20th-century American writers". Ask a Wikipedia reader if Hemingway is in the category "American novelists", what do you think they will say? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Phew - finally someone gets it. Thanks DC. Truthkeeper (talk) 22:08, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and ask a reader if Obama is in the category "American politicians" - what will they say?? Or ask the same reader if Hemingway is in the category Category:Novelists or Category:Short story writers or Category:American writers - same answer! In almost all cases, we categorize based on the most specific category(ies) for that person. That's the system. If you want to change it, go for it - but you have to change the guidance first, not battle it out article by article.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:10, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

What is wrong with having people in both general and specific categories? pbp 22:24, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, let's take an example - Ernest Hemingway. He was a novelist, short story writer, etc. So we stick him in Category:American short story writers. But why not go more general - and stick him in Category:Short story writers. We can get more general, and stick him in Category:Writers, and then up and up and up till he's in Category:Human. The problem is recursion - where do you stop? How generic is generic enough? As you go up the tree, any parent category will likely be valid - so I could edit war and say "Hemingway wasn't just an American novelist, he was a novelist, so he deserves to be in Category:Novelists. Others could make the same argument for higher level categories. The result would be a mess. Now, there are certain exceptions - for example, Novelist is a special type of writer ,but we stick Papa in both cats because he was known and DEFINED as a novelist, and he was known and DEFINED as a writer. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:39, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Hang on a sec there. If Hemingway is in Category:Novelists then he should not be placed in Category:Writers because Novelists is in Category:Fiction writers which is in Category:Writers by genre which is in Writers, so, by your logic above, Hemingway is already in Writers (because Novelists is a subcategory of a subcategory of Writers). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:25, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this is an area that's a bit wonky. For a moment, ignore the whole "american" thing - let's just deal in the abstract. Let's say he is in a specific sub-category of writers, as a novelist. If he only wrote novels, that would be fine - and if someone said "give me all the writers", I would also give you Hemingway, because he is a type-of-writer. Just like if someone said, give me a fruit, and you gave them an apple, because apple is a type-of-fruit. However, "writer" is not just a container - it is also a title that is applied to people - we have Category:Writers from New York for example - we don't have Category:Short story writers from New York or Category:Novelists from New York - so you end up putting him in some writers cats as well, because he was a journalist, short story writer, essayist, and so on. So, for various reasons, he ends up in some writers cats, some cats like short story cats, and two novelist cats - but they should all be siblings or cousins. This is a particularity of this writing tree, and the fact that writers is not fully diffusing - e.g. you can't always diffuse someone down, except by century, and there are lots of ancillary trees that only use the 'writer' moniker. It's the same with novelists - as currently structured, it's only partially diffusing, with the exception of the by-century cats, which do fully diffuse. I think that may be the crux of misunderstanding here - some of the genre categories do not fully diffuse based on the person (for example, if you wrote science fiction and romance and "general" novels, then you'd be placed in sci-fi, romance, + novelist - but then you'd be diffused from novelist to novelist-by-century. Perhaps we should rename the head cat to Category:American novelists not yet diffused, which would reflect a bit better the current setup. Anyway, if you want to discuss this particular point further, please come to my talk page... cheers,--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:55, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• I've put Hemingway back as it was for many years and would like the page to be locked please until this resolved - where ever, whenever that happens. I'm tired of this; tired of being talked down to, tired of reading walls of text of why we have to diffuse, (we don't imo), sick of it all. I don't see that the edit warring will stop. Truthkeeper (talk) 12:34, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

General comments

Declaration to start with - I'm the one who used AWB to implement the outcome of the CFD. My interpretation was that all in Category:American women novelists should be added to Category:American novelists as a starting point but to be absolutely frank the CFD is a classic example of a very messy discussion because it's formally only actually about one individual category but many people were making points pertinent to either the broader tree and/or the entire category system as it's currently arranged. It certainly doesn't help when many contributors seem to have been under the impression that all American novelists were already directly in Category:American novelists and only women were diffused (not helped by some poor researched media articles). And this makes a mess if people aren't aware of what arrangements and categories they are and aren't reviewing. That particular discussion was only about Category:American women novelists - it didn't take in other categories and as they weren't tagged people either watching them or the relevant projects (and the media attention was not universal) so I'm not sure that has been decided beyond that women novelists should not solely be in that category. Timrollpickering (talk) 17:31, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Should "three-way intersection" categories even exist? "Category:Nationality Gender Occupation" or "Category:Ethnicity Occupation Location" etc. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:45, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Well in the same sense that we go down the list in categorizations, the American novelist section should be the finite spot, but it is possible to go down to male and female novelists (as it seems was half-done), but you can keep categorizing down to state, province, town if you really wanted to. But where to draw the line, when it becomes an issue? Or do we have to re-think our entire system? What about Wikidata? Many things mean well, but it is impossible for every editor to be on the same page and due to the nature of Wikipedia, a single interested person can be unchallenged for even large moves in obscure editing spaces. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Can this just be closed and policy discussion resume in appropriate location?

There's a pretty clear consensus that the removal of Filipacchi from the broader category was inappropriate. None of the related issues are suitable for resolution here? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:53, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, not convinced yet we have a consensus. Her presence, and the presence of all of the other bios in Category:American novelists needs resolution - are they ever allowed to be diffused, and if so to which categories? Or if not, why not? I proposed a compromise above. If they're *never* allowed to be moved, that causes other problems.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:07, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

And that discussion is why I suggested an RFC - to clarify precisely that question. But until then, the articles in American Women Novelists need to also be in American Novelists. Period. Full Stop. Dispute the CFD consensus at DRV, or start an RFC to clarify the issue of diffusion in general, or as it relates to this category in particular, or send WP:CATEGORIES to MFD. All of that is out of scope for ANI. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 21:53, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Fine. we'll just diffuse all the men, and the women will be left in the head cat. Maybe a new article will be written about the irony of that result. :) I'm really not in the mood to open an RFC, I don't even know how to do it - if you open one, just let me know. Thanks. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:01, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

No! That makes no sense at all. If consensus is not to diffuse the women (which it is), then the men too should all be upmerged to American novelists instead of being shoved down a level - and this opinion from a woman. Recent edits to writers' biographies really are lacking in consistency and creating a bit of a mess; can we just leave them alone for a while? Truthkeeper (talk) 00:07, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I see, go to the relevant page, make an edit in your favor [4] and then argue for diffusion. This is wrong and frankly disruptive. Truthkeeper (talk) 12:16, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Wait, were you watching the media sh*tstorm that just happened? Do you know *why* it happened? It was because we had diffusing gendered cats that should have been non-diffusing. I have a feeling you need to take more time to read diffs, this is like the third time you've accused me of something that is completely false. That edit I made above was to clarify that our guidance and current consensus is that gendered/ethnic/religious/sexuality cats should almost always be NON-DIFFUSING - so I fail to see how that edit is an argument for diffusion. Please read your diffs more carefully going forward and ease up on the bogus and unfounded accusations. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I read it wrong. Bleary eyed. Struck. Sorry. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:37, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Intent to continue to subvert community consensus

Attention should be drawn to this user talk page section, where the two named parties to this filing intend to "lie low", leave the Filipacchi article alone , and do this genre-fiddling that was rejected at the CfD elsewhere. to quote TDA, "Then when all of the articles but her bio are in gender-neutral sub-cats you can have hers be the last. ".

I believe it may be time to discuss a topic ban for The Devil's Advocate and Obi-Wan Kenobi from any gender/author-oriented categorization discussions. Tarc (talk) 23:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks inspector gadget. You've uncovered our top secret plan, which is to leave the women novelist bios alone as requested, especially the high profile ones. Sheesh. I have yet to see a community consensus that any sort of diffusion is simply not allowed, but I have said there, and here, and elsewhere, that I'm going to avoid touching women's bios because of the current climate.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:24, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

If you are hell-bent on diffusing all the things, start an RFC and get consensus to do so. But you can't do that with these categories, and it is WP:POINTy in the extreme to assume that consensus against diffusing one gender equals consensus to diffuse the other. I don't think you are that ignorant of policies 'round here. I am strongly inclined to support Tarc's proposal - every time someone points to a very recent and well-discussed consensus, your response is essentially "nuh-uh". And it is tiresome. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 01:33, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ultra. I'm sorry if I sound obtuse, but could you explain more clearly what you mean by "consensus against diffusing one gender"? Where, exactly, in the CfD did you see a consensus that Category:American novelists was no longer a diffusing category - e.g. that moving a male mystery novelist from Category:American novelists to Category:American mystery writers was not permitted anymore? Please provide diffs. Again, my reading of consensus was that women were not to be shunted into a woman-only category, and they should always also be placed in a gender neutral category alongside their male peers. This is not new, this is in fact our guideline, per WP:EGRS. In every edit I've made, I believe I've abided by that consensus, and that guideline. Category:American mystery writers and Category:19th-century American novelists are gender neutral, so no-one is being ghettoized by being placed within. In any case, I've stated I wont touch the "special" bio that was the subject of this ANI, nor any other women for the time being - tensions are too high right now... As for an RFC, do we really need an RFC to ask if we should abide by WP:Categorization and WP:EGRS? If you'd like to change that guideline, maybe you could open an RFC and make some suggestions? I think it's actually pretty good for now. Best regards,--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:26, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• WP: SNOW Common Sense Oppose Obviously not going to happen. The users violated no policy at all. Per this edit, TDA was already notified of the thread prior to Obi contacting him, thus the comment was not canvassing. More time should be spent trying to actually dicuss the topic at hand then attempting to drive productive editors out of a topic area. I think User: Tarc's increasingly hostile behavior (prime example) should be called into question, rather. ^{Alles Klar,} Herr Kommisar 04:09, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

  Um, how does one declare a "snow close" before any voting has actually begun? Or before an actual vote, straw poll, etc..has even been initiated? Did you read WP:SNOW before citing it, because I really do not think you know what it means. Tarc (talk) 11:58, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

  Please carefully read posts before commenting on them. I understand that the word "oppose" can appear similar to the word "close", but close was not said anywhere in my comment. However, I want this discussion to remain WP: CIVIL and without any WP: BATTLEGROUND actions. Therefore, do hope that you enjoy the cup of tea that I sent you. ^{Alles Klar,} Herr Kommisar 03:06, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

  Yes, I saw that; distinction without a difference. You wrongly cited a WP page that has no relevance to the discussion whatsoever, and quite frankly your "explanation" makes it appear even more unwise. Your input into this matter thus far has been a resounding net negative. Tarc (talk) 03:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

  I've struck out WP: SNOW in favor of better wording, for personal reasons. I still have serious doubt in your judgement, and I will be happy to disregard your above comments. ^{Alles Klar,} Herr Kommisar 12:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• Strong support on a case by case basis. Viriditas (talk) 04:15, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
• Lock Filippachi until this whole argument blows over (which it frankly won't until she stops criticizing Wikipedia editors, but, eh, what can we do?) pbp 04:25, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

  I hope she continues for the foreseeable future. Wikipedians are too insular, too resistant to change, too stubborn, and too narrow-minded. They only seem to do the right thing when they are forced to do it. Viriditas (talk) 04:31, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• Tarc, I have very little interest in making hundreds to thousands of edits to clear out a major category. All I did was say what I think should happen. I have said basically that same thing several times including further up in this discussion. Several other people, including Andreas (you and I both know what his stance on the original issue has been), have talked about such an approach being acceptable. You are basically calling for a topic ban because I made a single revert and you don't like an opinion that other people do like.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:42, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. Obiwankenobi has now moved to novels categories by placing Category:Asian-American novels at CfD as a "test case" without an apparent understanding of Asian American literature; continues to edit war, [5]; has actively edited against consensus formed here as shown at the top of the thread. We will almost certainly need an RfC to settle this issue, but it's best to let the dust settle, move away from it for a while, give people time to give it some thought and figure out what to do going forward. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:53, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• "without an apparent understanding of Asian American literature" So, the people who started the CfD on the women's category didn't have an apparent understanding of Women's literature? You can't have it both ways. Either it is proper or not. Silverseren^C 20:30, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• No, that's not what I'm saying. Amy Tan is an American, a novelist, Asian-American. I'd categorize her as an American novelist, and now that we have the category (though I think it's unnecessary and is rightfully being upmerged) as a woman novelist. Her novel The Bonesetter's Daughter is rightfully categorized as an American-Asian novel: a novel written by an American about an Asian theme. Deleting that category, and presumably others, will only cause more fuss and we don't need that right now do we? Truthkeeper (talk) 21:38, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what nomination of categories for deletion have to do with this ANI. I've nominated several cats for deletion before and after this mess, mostly in an attempt to clean them up and comply with our guidelines. Please AGF. In any case, this particular one on Asian literature I've withdrawn, pending further research to build a better case. Also, you have "edit-warred" as you say on the Hemingway article just as much as I have, so don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. you even said you were willing to be banned in order to maintain your specific set of categories on Papa Hemingway. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:47, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• RFC and Categorization freeze — With an attempt to diffuse Category:American novelists to Category:American women novelists blocked by community consensus, several editors are trying to create new categories. As is obvious from this thread, multiple editors have objections to some of these schemes, and there is uncertainty as to how to preserve/create an all-inclusive holding place for American novelists. The details of the categorization scheme to be applied, and which categories are diffusing or are not diffusing is not a matter for AN/I. However, we have some very active categorizers who can't seem to wait for consensus. This Incident appears to be an attempt to ask them to desist. I would suggest that (1) we have this conversation as a RFC on Category talk:American novelists; (2) preliminary conversation on the possible options begin immediately at Category talk:American novelists#Preparing an RFC; (3) No new categories should be created as subcategories of American novelists, and no members of Category talk:American novelists should be removed from the root category, until that discussion is complete; (4) (and here I lack an understanding of protocol for whether I may suggest this; I've edited in Wikipedia arenas where this kind of intervention is more common and hope I'm not overstepping boundaries:) An administrator formally warns all involved editors to not violate step 3, under penalty of a topic ban from American novelists.--Carwil (talk) 04:11, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think you should, or even could with any degree of efficacy, bar people from creating new categories that are sub-categories of American novelists. You are right that ANI isn't for policy discussion and that is because you often can't get meaningful community involvement. Likewise we shouldn't impose such substantive restrictions because a handful of people complain at ANI. Most in the CfD only objected to the consequence of a parent category becoming an all-male category due to a gender-specific sub-cat being created just for women, not the idea of gender-specific cats as a whole, or sub-cats in general. It is wikilawyering to take a literal reading of the admin's close as representative of the community position and then accuse people of going against consensus when they pursue a compromise that honors the community's actual concerns just because it seems to go against the literal reading of the admin's closing comment.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:03, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
• Are you seriously complaining about the fact that I created American western novelists and American adventure novelists cats? Silverseren^C 05:19, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
• "As is obvious from this thread, multiple editors have objections to some of these schemes, and there is uncertainty as to how to preserve/create an all-inclusive holding place for American novelists." There has never been an all-inclusive holding place for American novelists. Why do people not understand that? The full list of American novelists was NEVER Category:American novelists, any more than we would expect Category:American writers to have a full list of writers or Category:American politicians to have a full list of politicians. The *only* way to get all of them today is recursive enumeration, which, surprise surprise, is now available as a link at the top of Category:American novelists. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 06:01, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

TDA, this is not about "winning" or just expanding the Admin's closing into some general law. It's about a pattern of pointless escalation. A subgcategory (Category:American women novelists) is critiqued in the media and brought to CfD, where it fails. Meanwhile, editors create new categories (like Category:American humor novelists, Category:American realism novelists) representing not so-clearly-delineated sets of novelts. Some are brought to CfD. Meanwhile, editors create new categories dividing American novelists by century. This all happens in less than two weeks, while there is vigorous debate about each, and some editors (not necessarily me) are vocally advocating a large root category. Now, these subcats may or may not be the right choice (I tend to think that they fail WP:DEFINING), but they are being rushed into, despite active conversations. What makes this relevant to AN/I is that there's way too much bold and absolutely no willingness to wait for discuss before going on to the next scheme. While active conversations are going on, we have over-eager categorizers moving hundreds of articles. If they would slow down voluntarily, that would also be lovely.

Seren, I'm inviting you to join the discussion. There are multiple ways to divide this category, some of which will diffuse everyone. Some of them involve lots of non-defining characteristics ("satire novelists," "realist novelists," imho) that won't fully diffuse the category anyway. If the scheme leaves behind a residue of novelists in Category:American novelists it will be interpreted by the world as "the real American novelists." That's the tricky problem for us to solve, and it requires discussion. I assume that your new cats, as well as JPL's and Obi-wan's are all in good faith, but the issue has been raised by many and should be discussed before we continue our editing.

Obi-wan, I know that from the experienced editor POV, Category:American novelists does not equate to Complete list of real American novelists. However, this controversy demonstrates very very clearly that (1) there is a public desire for an all-inclusive holding place for American novelists; (2) so long as Category:American novelists has novelists at the root level, people we will think it is that list. If the question is, who are you gonna believe, me or the next random reader who sees/reads about the page, the answer that should guide our development of the site is the random reader. Many people have told you this; stop saying, "I didn't hear that." Also, I think recursive enumeration could be a lovely solution, if we avoid the "residue of real novelists" problem, or explicitly disclaim the idea that the list is the list of all American novelists in providing the link. But again, that's what the RFC is for. Please be willing to put some of the energy you have for editing into crafting a consensus everyone is happy with.--Carwil (talk) 11:14, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Who said anything about "winning"? I sure didn't. No one in the media was criticizing sub-categories in general so I don't see how it is escalation to create them so editors can move men and women out of the parent category and into those sub-categories. Editors are trying to boldly resolve the dispute in a way that should satisfy everyone's concerns. So far no one has given a substantive objection to the creation of these sub-categories or their replacement with the parent category on articles. It is basically invoking a misrepresented CfD or complaining about how it makes us look. Should the editors doing that recategorization actualize their intent then it will basically look to outsiders like editors responded to the controversy by pursuing a course of action with categorization that did not emphasize gender and I doubt many who commented in the CfD will see a problem with the result either.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:10, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

"Wikilawyering" = adversarial use of wiki policies; thus my reference to "winning." | I think there's a productive conversation going on right now. Maybe it will result in subcategories that empty AmN's; maybe there will be some other solution.--Carwil (talk) 13:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Carwil, You said "(1) there is a public desire for an all-inclusive holding place for American novelists; (2) so long as Category:American novelists has novelists at the root level, people we will think it is that list". Which is this "public" you are talking about - I assume the general population of people who come to the website? If so, is that "public" also interested in a all-inclusive list of British novelists? And Canadian novelists too? Did you ask them? Or does this public *only* care about American novelists - not journalists, non-fiction writers, chefs, politicians, or any other job under the sun - just this _one_ category, which is more special than ALL the rest. What do you think? Personally, I think consistency is the most important thing - so if we need to create a template that we stick ontop of EVERY CATEGORY that says "the articles below do not represent the complete set of XXX, if you want such a link, please click here", I'm totally fine with that. If Jimmy Wales will stand up and say "media wiki category display does not recursively enumerate categories", that is fine too. If you want to pressure WMF to develop an option to recursively display all sub-cat members on any given category page, FINE - do that. And finally, if you want to say "For certain categories, we don't want them to diffuse, like Category:Presidents of the United States - that is also fine with me. But none of those things have been proposed, and no-one is talking about generic solutions - they are still focused on one special snowflake category - instead of spending time de-ghettoizing, which is what we all should be doing instead of this discussion. Any appeals to "users" should fall on deaf ears if you're not talking about addressing issues in a generic fashion, and not just for this one special cat.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban for Obiwankenobi per this edit. There is too much WP:IDHT going on. Set up an RFC and confirm that your position has consensus, or stop disrupting articles in this fashion when that consensus is unclear. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 12:08, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose The outcome of the original CFD was not as sweeping as some seem to be assuming and it would be wrong to try to enforce anything but the actual close relating to the speciic category. A proper informed discussion is needed for the tree, not a confused mess where people are contributing without understanding what the arrangements and status quo antes are. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:09, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
• comment I have already stated that I will not be further diffusing the bio that was the subject of this ANI, nor any other women's novelists bios. I think, as Tim states, extending the definition of consensus wildly beyond the original CFD, and then punishing me for violating it, is not very fair. I also note that ~300 bios were diffused out of American novelists in the past few days, and I was not responsible for at least 299 of them.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:55, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Pitchforks down, please

• Given the amount of bickering between the two groups involved in this debate, I would like to kindly ask those involved to step away from the WP: DEADHORSE, have a nice cup of tea, and remember WP: CIVILITY. We're here to discuss the enforcement of a RFC, not to try and synthesize it's results. That's WP: DRN territory. This thread began with a simple call to restore order to this heavily disputed category, and now the debate has spiraled into politicking and ridiculous calls for a topic ban. With this terrible media assault, this is no time to be turning on our fellow editors. These are the kinds of threads that tend to blow up in everyone's face, and someone ends ends up blocked or banned, usually to the detriment of the 'pedia. ^{Alles Klar,} Herr Kommisar 02:24, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

  It's definitely not a DEADHORSE, and blaming the media is equivalent to circling the wagons and encouraging groupthink. Yes, the media got the specifics all wrong, but the general problem is recognized as valid. Meanwhile, "our fellow editors" caused the problem, and it's probably time for a few topic bans to be awarded to the more obsessive, IDHT users in our midst. Viriditas (talk) 03:07, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

  Er, it isn't ridiculous at all, perhaps you should actually familiarize yourself with the discussion before commenting. We have two editors here who edit-warred against a clear consensus reached at a Categories for Discussion close, that is why I brought this here. Since filing last night, these two have done nothing but politick and browbeat everyone in this conversation, attempting to re-argue the debate that was already over and done with. A topic ban is more than appropriate to call for for otherwise productive editors who cannot seem to avoid disrupting a particular topic. And for the record, I did not weigh in at all in the CfD. Tarc (talk) 03:09, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Please explain to us then, why issuing a TB to two editors in good standing because they wanted to step away from the project for a breather. What policy does that violate? This is the kind of thing i'm talking about. Making WP: POINTy edits like that only serve to dilute the topic. ^{Alles Klar,} Herr Kommisar 03:56, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

One point is that AN/I is not the place to be having a discussion about how we should be categorising articles - having a discussion/argument on policy here only inflames the issue and creates more behaviour problems. AN/I should stick to editor behaviour. And people really need to calm down so that a proper discussion on the policy can be had at the appropriate placedNigel Ish (talk) 09:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

You are right that it isn't the place for a policy discussion, but a policy discussion is essentially the basis for the filer and those supporting his complaint so it is pertinent. They claim the CfD consensus meant moving articles from the gender-neutral parent category to gender-neutral sub-categories is against the CfD consensus. I would contend that it meant moving articles from the gender-neutral parent category to a gender-specific sub-category is not to be done in a manner that makes the ostensibly gender-neutral category the de-facto category for a specific gender. So, by my estimation, the community consensus was being respected and thus there is no basis for the complaint.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:29, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

So, basically

We need to diffuse all the men first. Got it. I'll go help out with that then. Silverseren^C 05:59, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

By that, I mean diffuse them into their novelist specific cats, but not the gender ones. I'm not even touching the men novelists and women novelist cats, just the genre ones and the century ones. Silverseren^C 06:18, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

As long as they all stay in "American novelists" as well, knock yourself out. Tarc (talk) 12:01, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

That's not what diffusing means. It means putting them into the multiple specific cats they belong in and not the higher cats. There's absolutely no reason that the American novelists cat should get special treatment in this regard compared to all the other cats, especially since the question again is raised that, why stop there and not keep going higher? And then you run into the problem of having dozens of cats on an article, it looking extremely ugly and also being extremely useless. Silverseren^C 15:19, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

A useful comparison: Category:American novels, which is fully diffused. User:Truthkeeper88 opposed diffusion there too, but ultimately consensus was to diffuse. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:35, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Consensus appears against diffusion. Again, please stop. Viriditas (talk) 00:09, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

consensus is as consensus does. Today, there are over 3000 novelists not in the main cat. Thus up till now, consensus has been pretty clear that diffusion is aok. You've made assertions but have not backed them up. Can you point me to the rfc or other dicsussion that says diffusion - for novelists, or for anyone else - is now not allowed? If you like, start one - but then, i dont see a consensus against diffusion of this or any other cats. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:21, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I am only diffusing men and I am not diffusing them into the American male novelists category (which may be deleted soon, from the CfD). So, basically, I am diffusing them the same exact way we have always done, via century and genre. And there is most certainly no current consensus against doing that. So, in short, no. Silverseren^C 01:35, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

A useful way to determine whether or not to diffuse could be determined by this: is there literature discussing this diffusion? If there are books discussing as a topic American female novelists, by all means we should have a topic on that. If literature discusses American male novelists as American male novelists, then we should have one also. Sometimes literature about a topic puts more emphasis on one gender, and not another, and naturally Wikipedia would go by this. For instance "female incarceration" is treated as a special phenomenon. Most prisons house men and most prisoners are male, and so female prisons and prisoners are treated specially. Therefore I created the article incarceration of women. On this topic it is 100% acceptable to make a "women prisoners" category and devolve women to that category, and not devolve men as male prisoners. But this may not be the same for all topics. Examine the literature and see how it treats gender. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:37, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

So a decision was reached as a result of wide discussion - "The result of the discussion was: The result, by a fairly large margin in both numbers and arguments, is in favor of merging the categories back together at Category:American novelists, while keeping the women novelists seperate Category:American women novelists because it is a recognized field of study in the literature" and this is interpreted to mean that "Category:American novelists" should be "diffused", ie emptied out so that there is nothing in it. I doubt that a single person who supported merging "Category:American women novelists" with ""Category:American novelists" had that in their mind, but the editors who deal with categories just insist that they are going to do what they want, because they understand the system and others do not. This is a ridiculous mess.Smeat75 (talk) 14:17, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Smeat75. there are basically 2 interpretations I can see:

1) all women novelists should always be in American novelists. fine, but this is mum on the men. If men can be diffused, the eventual result is, only women in American novelists - thus absurd. If men can't be diffused, the result is, every single novelist should be in american novelists, meaning, bubble up not only American women novelists, but every single other sub-cat which has been diffused for years. this is also an absurd result from a ruling on a single category.

2) All women novelists should always be in American novelists *OR* a non-gendered sub-cat. This is much more in line with the rest of the tree, everywhere in the wiki, and that's the interpretation some of us have been following.

Note: no-one, anywhere in the CfD, ever challenged the general notion of diffusion - just the idea of diffusing only based on gender.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:54, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

What I said above is that gender should be diffused based on the distinctions between gender made in literature. Study the literature about American novelists to see how the literature diffuses men and women. For instance, in articles about prisons, the subject of women is diffused from the general body, while the subject of men is not diffused, because men are the default in the prison systems in various countries (in terms of prisoners and guards). "Incarceration of women" is treated as a distinct topic while "incarceration of men" AFAIK is not. So prison-related categories should diffuse women and not diffuse men. However it may be different with novelists. WhisperToMe (talk) 21:26, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• Someone has now decided to fight the dispersion of Raymond Chandler on the grounds that Filipacchi has not been dispersed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• "Someone" is me. Actually, I would describe the situation as "someone has decided to remove everyone from Category:American novelists except for Amanda Filipacchi" given the edit summary on this reversion. — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 03:07, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• You gotta love this, people get all bent out of shape because someone was moving women out of the American novelists category and into a sub-category and not doing the same to men. So, people start moving men and women out of the American novelists category, but people object when one of the women was the person who pointed out the previous action. As a result people decide to just leave Filipacchi alone and focus on other novelists, yet people object that only she is being given special treatment. Do any of you realize that this is an absurd sequence of events?--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 14:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

DA, you left out a teensy little element in that sequence of absurd, I quite agree, events - there was a wide discussion on the matter and the result was in favor of merging the categories back together at Category:American novelists, not moving everything out of that category so there is nothing in it. The clear result of the community consensus is being flouted, I do not understand why an admin has not intervened. Smeat75 (talk) 15:33, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

By "the categories" what was meant was Category:American women novelists, not all sub-categories of Category:American novelists.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:38, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this. The community consensus was to not move the women out of American novelists and it is being flouted. Treating Filipacchi as sui generis is ridiculous. Thus people decided to start moving only men out. This looks just as stupid as moving only women out. Just imagine if the mens-rights press gets wind of this. There ought to be a moratorium on taking anyone out of American novelists until the policy is figured out. Moving women out of American novelists at this point goes against community consensus, so if the editors who are doing it won't stop someone ought to stop them until the discussion is done. — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:38, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

"so if the editors who are doing it won't stop someone ought to stop them until the discussion is done." You raise a good point - what discussion? Where? We need a proper RFC. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:47, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

No-one is treating Filipacchie as sui generis - I tried to edit her categories, was reverted and brought before ANI as a result. So if you have an issue with Filipacchi's bio, ask those like Tarc who are defending the sanctity of those categories. Finally, I really want to emphasize again, for the millionth time, that no-body is being classified as a "no-longer-an-american-novelist-but-something-much-worse" - most bios have been placed in Category:20th-century American novelists, which contains the words "American novelists" - so moving a woman (or man) to that cat, which is non-gendered, is a completely different affair than moving someone to Category:American women novelists and not putting them in any *other* cats. It is simply a more specific, by-time category, the sort of diffusion that happens by the thousands every day here on the wiki - anyone in there is still an American novelist, in both word and deed! Before this whole thing blew up, Category:American novelists was a diffusing category - it even had a big tag on the top labeling it as such.

If you think the by-century category should be non-diffusing, or deleted, then bring to CFD. If you want to start an RFC, please be my guest - but don't throw editors under the bus for failing to comply with the as-yet-to-be-determined consensus of an as-not-written RFC on a as-yet-to-be-determined scope! A sample RFC is being drafted at talk here Category:American novelists - I do note though, that the Category:American novels category was fully diffused a few years back, by consensus of the novels wikiproject. In any case, if we do an RFC, I think we have bigger fish to fry - like how do we clean up the endemic ghettoization, which is what the hoopla was about! - rather than worrying so much about whether X is an Category:American novelists or a Category:20th-century American novelists (which was *not* what the hoopla was about), and going on witch-hunts after editors who were in good faith trying to clean up a mess by following long-extant editing guidelines like WP:Categorization. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:00, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

That's the same wikilawyer logic giving priority to the admin close over the actual community perspective. You look over all the various votes and it is pretty clear that people weren't voting "no moving anything out of the American novelists category", but "we shouldn't move anything out of the American novelists category if it gives one group exclusive representation in the category." In other words, the consensus was against unequal diffusion, not against diffusion in general.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:40, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• Actually, I was not treating Filipacchi differently. I was going through the categorystarting at A, and was partly through C. I was not where near F, that was several pages ahead of me.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:33, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

JPL - a little word to the wise - don't attempt any recategorization/diffusion on Filipacchi's page. I did a single edit, and was brought before ANI as a result. Let someone else deal with it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:00, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Now Koavf has added Upton Sinclair back to category American novelists, citing the CfD in his edit summary. Wouldn't it be better to call a halt to all this until the best course of action is decided upon? — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 19:37, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Diffusing Evidently, Category:American novelists is going to be a container diffused by century, ethnic origin, genre, and sex. So nothing should be in there. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:39, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Then why did you put him back into it? — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 19:43, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Seems he added the cat at first to a bunch of articles, sometimes adding it to people who didn't even have it before this began, and then started removing them after a conversation on his talk.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:06, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• Admin intervention requested. Viriditas (talk) 22:21, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
• I just thought I should point out the novelists by century cats are based on when the people had novels published, not when they were born. That is why we have a fairly substantial Category:21st-century American novelists, many of the people in that category are not in the related Category:20th-century American novelists.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:06, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
• Agree with Viridatas that admin intervention is required to stop edit warring, discussions that go nowhere, and a group of eager editors who are now diffusing although consensus to do so hasn't been established. An RfC has been proposed here: [6], and until it's up and going (if that happens) would like to see all categorization stop until consensus is established. Truthkeeper (talk) 16:35, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

All categorization? Plz be specific: categorization of special snowflake American novelists? Categorization of other novelists? Novels? Writers? Books? Journalists? Basketball players? What is the scope of your hoped-for-freeze-of-categorization-efforts? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:41, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• Categories like Category:20th-century American novelists have never been formally objected to in any way. They are legitimate diffusing candidates, and remove all sorts of problems with overlap isses and how to deal with people who write in multiple genres, some of which lack their own specific categories. Diffusing to these categories solves lots of problems. No one has ever even really put forth an argument against this diffusion. There is no reason not to diffuse.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• The only problem is that against consensus, showing an unwillingness to even consider the opposite argument, and making the argument for diffusion while simultaneously denigrating those who might have a legitimate reason to oppose, the diffusion and recategorization has continued. Not a single admin who willingly ran for RfA has said a thing here, but I think it would nice to see someone who's uninvolved, has some understanding of the issue, and can write a tightly focused RfC stand up and lend a hand. As obviously that won't happen, and I continue to find myself smeared on various talk pages, I see no reason to continue. In other words, congrats. You've won. Truthkeeper (talk) 19:18, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• There is no consensus this is against. There has never been a discussion of categorizing novelists by century. There is no consensus on the issue. The only consensus is that novelists should not be removed from gender neutral categories to be put in gender specific ones. That says absolutely nothing about the century categories. You are trying to force a discussion to be about an issue that was never even brought up.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:33, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

American women painters

There is a list of American women painters. Please fix it. I don't have time. -Aerolit (talk) 08:55, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Add it here --> Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force#List_of_categories_that_need_to_be_de-ghettoized. It may get fixed by someone. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:42, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

SuzanneOlsson topic ban and usefulness of continued contributions to talk page

A discussion regarding SuzanneOlsson topic ban and usefulness of continued contributions to this talk page was started today by User:Raeky who is not generally active on that talk page. The rationale was that although the topic ban from February 2013 on user:SuzanneOlsson allowed access to that talk page, no benefit from it can be detected, and it may in fact need to be viewed in the liability column given the cyclic nature of the discussion. I agreed with that assessment, and another user observed on that thread that since the ban Ms Olsson has not "supplied a single useful piece of information which would improve the article". And I agree with that statement too. In fact, as I stated there, we have not seen one WP:RS source from Ms Olsson. Not one. All we continue to get are statements like:

• Promotion of the movie trailer for her book

• Continued defense of original research as a strategy when blogs are questioned as sources

• Repeated source free discussion of the same inscriptions

And I again had to joke today that I was tempted to suggest a reading of WP:RS. I said that because as stated on the ban discussion before, back in 2008 she was quoting Jimmy Wales on sourcing and was told to only use reliable sources by User:Paul Barlow and told about self-published items by user:Dougweller, etc. Now, it is just too ironic for me to weigh if I should suggest a reading of WP:RS again. We have all recommended that more times than I can remember.

The situation in February was this:

• The ban was put in place due to her clear conflict of interest on the page because she has self-published a book on it and it was agreed that she is just too close to the topic and treats it with a personal element.
• The idea of allowing talk page access was to obtain the benefit of information she may have which would help that page of the encyclopedia.

As user:In ictu oculi stated on the talk there, we have seen no benefit at all from anything Ms Olsson has typed since February, and none seems likely. Not "one piece of information" that can be used has been provided. Not one.

And I have come to see her closeness to the topic as a reflection of the fact that she believes the article is about her "private family tomb", as I mentioned on the talk there. I think Ms Olsson genuinely believes that she is the 59th descendant of Jesus of Nazareth, and according to The Times of India has even attempted to excavate his body in India to compare its DNA with her own to prove it. So it would be an understatement to say that she is too attached to the topic.

I think User:Raeky's suggestion that the topic ban should extend to the few related talk pages is a good idea. History2007 (talk) 19:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support Full topic ban extended to all pages including user space. — raekyt 19:57, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with this. It's hardly ever good to leave article talkpages as the only outlet for the energies of a topic banned SPA. If those energies are considerable, we're likely to get what we have here: the user owns the talkpage through insistence, repetitiousness, and passive resistance to Wikipedia's rules and principles. And, I'm sorry to be blunt, but please let's do it right this time, so the editor's agenda doesn't resurface at, say, Talk: Unknown years of Jesus and we have to open another thread about that in a month. This kind of attrition is very bad for talkpages and for productive editors. So, I support a topic ban from Roza Bal, related articles, and related talkpages. (Not sure about user space, though. Why, really? Have there been problems in user space?) Bishonen | talk 21:26, 6 May 2013 (UTC).

I am not aware of any issues in user space. I agree with your characterization, and wording of the ban extension. History2007 (talk) 21:37, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support The editor needs to gain experience with other areas on Wikipedia to understand that relentless POV pushing on any page is not helpful to the encyclopedia. Bishonen is always very friendly, but I fail to see why leaving any wiggle room would be desirable, unless user space blogging on the topic is wanted. Johnuniq (talk) 23:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
• She does only one thing here. What's the point of keeping her around? Why is she not simply banned for self promotion, disruption, not getting the point, et cetera? Drmies (talk) 00:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - It's no secret that I've had some fairly in-depth discussions with Ms Olsson over a lengthy period of time and was jointly responsible for publishing her BLP at Suzanne M. Olsson. I know she has certainly been frustrated with the terms of her topic ban (having begrudgingly agreed to them in the first place) but has, as far as I can tell, complied with those conditions entirely. She has not edited the Roza Bal article directly, nor has she edited her own biography directly since it was moved to article space (though she has posted what is effectively an edit request on another user's talk page and on her own talk page). In both cases she has attempted to clarify why she made the claims she did and what she was attempting to do by making them. She has been given some advice about providing sources to balance the claims. It would be unfair, I think, to ignore her multiple clarifications and continue to claim that she "genuinely believes" something she has clearly disputed. I would urge editors to assume good faith and acknowledge that while her talk page contributions might not be particularly valuable, the editor in question is complying with the conditions of her topic bans and is contributing material that she believes is worthwhile. I think it would also be worth noting that during the period outlined above, Ms Olsson struggled with some major personal events that she fully disclosed to editors here. I've worked with History2007 in a number of contexts and I have faith that he wouldn't have brought this here except as a final resort. I totally understand his frustration and I'm certainly not suggesting this be swept under the carpet, so to speak. I only ask that editors and admins tread lightly and be conscious of past history. Stalwart111 01:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• I find it hard to believe she even remotely meets WP:GNG, and although she's kept to her topic ban, shes been nothing but disruptive to the Roza Bal talk page with 70 edits to it since the ban and nothing helpful or aimed at improving the article to our standards. — raekyt 02:07, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• The question of her meeting WP:GNG was briefly discussed when the draft article was put up for deletion. With significant coverage in multiple reliable sources, GNG hasn't really be questioned with any depth. I've been keeping an eye on Talk:Roza Bal and while I can certainly see content there that would be frustrating, there are a number of editors making all sorts of claims and providing all sorts of commentary, balanced out by the ever-calm clarifications of a few. Certainly I would agree that the talk page has somewhat strayed from its primary purpose of improving the article rather than discussing the subject. But those extensive discussions, useful or not, have produced a fairly balanced and well-written article that deals fairly analytically with a subject about which a good many people get very emotional. Given she is obviously not contributing directly to the article (per her topic ban), would it not be a better option to simply ignore her posts/threads and deal with those from others that you believe to be worth your time? If there's "nothing helpful" in her suggests/requests/comments why not ignore them? Change the timing/counter on the archive bot and if nobody responds within a few days, the thread will disappear. Stalwart111 02:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• The AFD was for a non-article space page Wikipedia:WikiProject Abandoned Drafts/Suzanne M. Olsson, and therefore was a XfD, so not nearly as well looked at as an AfD would of. The sources stem from a single event as best I can tell, where she got herself thrown out of a country for trying to dig up some tomb to prove it was Jesus or something, hardly "in depth" coverage that meets WP:GNG. Theres a reason why we don't let people continuously disrupt talk pages see: WP:NOTFORUM, WP:HERE, WP:COMPETENCE, etc... — raekyt 02:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• No, as I say, it was briefly discussed, but certainly not in depth. The articles are a bit broader than just that one event and cover a number of visits, to different countries and at different times, and some are more about her books, from memory. Anyway, that's not really the point of this discussion but I'm more than happy to have that discussion with you elsewhere. As I said, I can certainly agree that the talk page has strayed from its purpose, but I don't think it is entirely the fault of one person and I'm not convinced that good faith attempts (even misguided or mistaken ones) should be considered disruptive. Stalwart111 03:26, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• I think the BLP issues about Ms Olsson's own Wiki-page Suzanne M. Olsson have no impact on this ANI thread. A user may meet WP:GNG and not be active on Wikipedia, or not meet GNG and be active. So I think the GNG issues are probably not part of this thread which discusses the Wikipedia editor as an editor not as the subject of an article. History2007 (talk) 07:51, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• Agreed; a bit of a side-track from my commentary in response to your thread but I don't think that was User:Raeky's intention in raising it. I've had my say about the issues raised here and am more than happy to discuss the other stuff somewhere else. Cheers, Stalwart111 08:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• Ok, but regarding the statement that she genuinely believes she is the 59th descendant of Jesus, I read her last response from today on the Roza Bal talk page now, and in one place she admits that she wrote a letter to claim that she was the descendant of Jesus in order to get into the tomb, then that she recanted it later. Is that really so? If it is, then it will look even more confusing if that turns out to be a fake claim admission. Or is it the recant that should not be believed now? Pretty confusing overall, I should say... History2007 (talk) 16:59, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, confusing perhaps, but I think that is exactly what she has said in a number of places. She made certain claims in the past to gain access to a site she believed was under threat. Those claims were published in reliable sources and so have been mentioned in her BLP here. She has since suggested that such claims were only made to gain access to the site and to give her efforts to protect it some legitimacy. I know she is working on publishing a full account somewhere to correct the record and has, in the meantime, attempted to explain it for the benefit of fellow WP editors and has apparently given a partial account in her most recent book (which I have not read). Stalwart111 22:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• Ok, now the situation is that the claim was made up, and she has now retracted it. Between you and me "the end does not justify the means" in my book, but that is another story. And this whole real/fake claim issue may be beside the point here anyway, and may relate to her BLP not this thread. The way I see it is that user:Drmies summarized the situation pretty well in just 2 lines above here. History2007 (talk) 23:06, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• Sure, I understand that. I suppose my original point was in response to the suggestions (including the one you highlighted) that this was a matter of WP:COI/WP:PROMO rather than WP:NOBLECAUSE/WP:GREATWRONGS. That doesn't justify anything, but I think that Ms Olsson genuinely believes she is contributing productively and her contributions come from a place of good faith and misunderstanding rather than disruption and malice. The community still needs to deal with everything as it sees fit, I'm only asking that they take some of the context into account. We're talking about someone who retired 20+ years ago and who (despite lengthy discussions) still doesn't understand how WP works. Her responses to this thread in various places should be proof-positive of that. Competence is required and a lack of it is very frustrating. But let's please deal with it in that context, rather than suggesting a overly passionate retiree is here to break WP. Stalwart111 03:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• I think we agree on the "someone who despite lengthy discussions still doesn't understand how WP works" part. The long and short of it is that this editor provides no benefit to the encyclopedia, as user:Drmies summarized. She just repeats the same source-free statements again and again and again. This editor still thinks "she is the source". How can anyone deal with an editor who after 5 years still thinks they are the source? The only way to deal with that is a ban. That is all. History2007 (talk) 06:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Response - I am deeply saddened to see that all this is the direct result of harassment by History007. He has followed me relentlessly, always making negative comments to or about me or anything I contribute... and he undermines every contribution to Roza Bal page because apparently this is not in accordance with his personal religious beliefs. Just recently he is editing at least 14 pages on Christianity, a topic which he seems to regard himself as an "expert" whose opinion must prevail. Further, in his long rant above, he refers to my belief that "I am 59th descendant from Jesus"- knowing full well that I explained this in careful detail- why I made the statement in kashmir, and why I retracted it as soon as I left Kashmir... In other words,,,he is misleading all of you and not including all information. About my not contributing "anything valuable" on the Roza Bal page, that too is untrue..as seen by the comments from other editors. I have made several attempts to contribute valuable info, much of which History 2007 shoots down...I dont see this from any of the other editors there...I submit that History2007 has an agenda...a personal dislike of me that makes it impossible for him to be fair or impartial. Please ignore him. Thank You. SuzanneOlsson (talk) 2:17, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

"Please ignore him"? Judging from some of the above comments, it doesn't seem like a simple one-sided attempt at smearing you. Doc talk 02:51, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

When I was in Kashmir seeking the DNA, it took many months of planning and meeting with many officials. The final permission came after I had four meetings in the Cheif Minister's office, Farooq Abdullah. It was nothing we approached lightly or carelessly. Great thought and careful planning went into every phase. It was only due to the indidscetion of one local chowkidar who thought he was left out of backsheesh that the negative versions started being fed to the newspapers by him and him alone. He can also be seen in various documentary films bashing me, bashing Ahmadaddis..and generally ranting for fundamentalism to prevail. That was the time the letter was written to try and regain the tomb from his influence...however he had a lot of local relatives, young males who would then back him up and threaten anyone who approached the tomb. This is the same man who was selling off tomb artifacts to Pakistani agents. Holger Kersten bought a piece of carved wood relic from this same man..who began regarding Roza Bal as his own personal ATM machine. .had there been no intervention, the entire tomb would be destroyed by now. There's a big difference in the way these events are portrayed here through ignorance, and what the truth is. SuzanneOlsson (talk)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Well at least thank you for not suggesting that I am the person in Kashmir who asked for undue amounts of backsheesh. But I did not know that your claim to be the 59h descendant of Jesus was fake. If it was fake, my apologies for assuming it was genuine. But in any case, as you can see on the talk page there I did not start the thread that suggested the ban extension and I was not the only person to say that we have not seen one piece of useable information. And as can be seen from the lengthy new discussions there which started after this ANI post and have taken place without my participation, other users are still asking you for sources. Given that after these 5 years of discussion on sourcing in Wikipedia your last response today starts with "I am the source" when you are asked about a source, I will have to leave it at that. I do not really see the point in asking for a reading of WP:RS again. History2007 (talk) 08:01, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Request for action due to lack of opposition It seems that the suggestion for ban extension is not getting any opposition to speak of. From what I see, myself, Raeky, Bishonen, Johnuniq and Drmies are in favor of extending the ban and no one (excluding the user in question) has actually opposed it. Stalwart111 has been sympathetic about her intentions, but even he agrees that after 5 years of policy explanations, Ms Olsson still does not know how WP:RS works. This became clear again today, after all this, when we had to explain that Wikipedia "needs sources" and we can not operate by emailing people to ask their opinions. After 5 years of explanations, and repeated discussions, we have had to explain WP:RS again today, more than once. I hope this will be the last time I have to suggest a reading of WP:RS in this case. The fact that this is user is far too close to this topic to be involved in it, and the lack of familiarity with basic policies such as WP:V and WP:RS after 5 years is obvious. I suggest action should be taken to extend the ban as suggested, given that there is no opposition to it to speak of after 2 days on the noticeboard. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support extension of topic ban to all pages per Bishonen. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
  • ...excepting her own talk page is OK with me. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:42, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support, but leave access to Talk:Suzanne M. Olsson and own Talk page - with regret Suzanne just doesn't seem capable of relating to the most basic concepts of sourcing, though it's the libelous attacks on an Indian government official that are a more immediate concern. Any utility Suzanne might early have had in identifying (I use the term very loosely) leads and clues has been made redundant by the appearance of a capable Urdu-speaking Ahmadi believer User:Dr Ali on the article talk pages. However I believe Suzanne should retain access to her own talk page because of the BLP. And yes the BLP passes GNG, just as Suzanne's German and Spanish esoterist equivalents do... ironically more GNG than the sober German and Swedish academics pouring scorn on the wild misuse of Arabic and Persian sources. But that's how GNG works. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:17, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support Weak oppose, but with an understanding of the frustration felt by supporters of the extension. She is frustrating, absolutely, and you only have to go back and read some of my earlier conversations with her to see that I, too, have been incredibly frustrated with her at times. I supported the original topic ban, but I'm a bit at a loss as to what it is we're trying to prevent here, given the point of sanctions is to prevent damage to WP, not to simply punish those we're frustrated with. I get it, but it just doesn't sit right with me. Anyway, H2007 and I had a good chat about it above and I think people know where I'm coming from, so I'll leave it at that. Stalwart111 07:20, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that other editors such as myself get so frustrated with having to deal with "policy free" and "source free" discussions for ever that they just say: "Forget it. Just forget it. This website is too frustrating to use, there is no point in wasting my life here when policy means nothing, sources mean nothing and the value of time means nothing. Let me move on." Then the web site will be inherited by those who do not understand, or follow policy. That is the problem. History2007 (talk) 07:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I get that. I'm not quite convinced that the semi-religious ranting of a retiree that most people have ignored anyway, will be enough to drive good editors away from WP, but hey... And as much as those discussions might have been "policy free" and "source free", the article those discussions have produced is pretty good, well-sourced and policy-compliant. So that long and frustrating road has arrived at a productive destination. But as I said, I get where you're coming from, it's just not my first-choice course of action. Stalwart111 09:25, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I've changed my view/note above. I wasn't excited about extending a topic ban to protect a talk page or quell the frustrations of a few experienced editors. But the edit-warring in article space is a step too far, even for me. Stalwart111 21:49, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Molon labe!

• Support extension of topic ban to main space talk pages - as the Admin who first implemented the topic ban back in February 2013. I thought that allowing talk page access would be constructive - I was wrong. GiantSnowman 08:23, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support extended ban. The diffs show substantial problems, GiantSnowman's demonstrating the failure of a previous effort, and Suzanne has turned into Randy in Boise apparently, judging by History2007's statement. Nyttend (talk) 11:59, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support Per Nyttend and the picture on the right. The last thing we need is more WP: RANDYs trying to insert this kind of problematic material. ^{Alles Klar,} Herr Kommisar 13:05, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I don't have a problem with extending the topic ban for Roza Bal and related articles, but I just wanted to clarify that this should not include the Suzanne M. Olsson, should it remain. It was raised at WP:BLPN that this topic ban would extend to commenting on the BLP about here, including at the noticeboard [7]. This is something I'd strongly oppose, as banning a subject from raising concerns about an article about them on-wiki, especially at appropriate noticeboards, isn't something we should make the mistake of doing. That said, I don't have any issue with extending the topic ban in other areas. - Bilby (talk) 03:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that is the case, and as I stated on the Afd for that page, WP:ABOUTSELF maybe her best avenue for pointing out things about her own entry. So it would make sense for the extended ban to include all Roza Bal related topic and talk pages, but allow for comments about her own bio on her talk page. History2007 (talk) 06:29, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support extension of topic ban to all of wikipedia Someone said: "Suzanne just doesn't seem capable of relating to the most basic concepts of sourcing", so why just the topic ban exactly? It looks like this editor is a completely time sink, IRWolfie- (talk) 22:47, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

To answer your question, the initial topic ban was just on the topic partly because no one expected the user to work on anything else anyway, and it seems unlikely that the user is going to go and work on the article on the Louvre anytime soon, so it has the same effect from a pragmatic standpoint. History2007 (talk) 15:34, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring

She's now starting to edit war over blanking her biography page because there's reliable sources that don't portray her in a positive light. So... either extend a topic ban to also include a page on her, or blocking may be in order.. She really doesn't get sourcing. — raekyt 20:45, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the fact that you just had to yet explain WP:RS again in response to the "wrong is wrong" comment suggests that the extended ban plus some block may be called for. The user is told that she has breached the ban, and that the source is WP:RS and still says "wrong is wrong". In the original ban discussion, user:KillerChihuahua said that the ban was all about WP:GREATWRONGS and I think she was pretty observant early on. There is no hope for a remedy or rehabilitation here. However, given that this proposal was for an extended ban, I think it is better to keep it as such, for it will have the same effect as an indef, but will have been done through a community decision by consensus. And consensus is uniform and unopposed now that Stalwart111 changed his vote. So I suggest a closure with an extended ban based on consensus now to cut back on drama. History2007 (talk) 22:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Multiple accounts

Should also point out that she in the past used User:Kashmir2 to edit from 31 December 2005 to 5 July 2010, she created User:SuzanneOlsson on 21 May 2008 and made her first edit then too, so she effectively broke WP:SOCK and was contributing to the same articles at the same time with two separate accounts. — raekyt 22:53, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

In fairness that was before she knew what sockpuppets are, and had other accounts it seems - NewYork-something. But that is old news. But let us face it, there is clear consensus for an extended ban here. So that is the easiest way to end the drama that has now erupted on her talk page and own article. This is just eating up life... And we all know where it is going to go. History2007 (talk) 22:56, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Yea some more info at: User_talk:Katchu2. Just saying, I found it when I was digging up the old AFD's for her bio page to add to the talk page list. — raekyt 22:59, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

To add that discussion was in 2008, she continued editing on both accounts until 2010, even though in 2008 she was warned about sock puppets..... just to point out that slight discrepancy there with "not knowing" — raekyt 23:01, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

You are right... There seem to be more skeletons buried there than I realized... pun intended... But then no recent sock puppet activity has taken place. And I told her about WP:MEAT sometime in the recent past, so I think that aspect may not be as prominent as the need for the extended ban (including talk pages) else the drama on her own bio talk page will persist as long as that Times of India article is mentioned anywhere. And I think she may not yet know that the same link exists as item 7 in the lede of the Roza Bal page. History2007 (talk) 23:17, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, this was all raised previously - I remember there being a discussion. WP:COIN I think, but I'm trying to find it. The claim, I think, was that one of the accounts was registered by her grand-daughter, then taken over by her when the grand-daughter stopped editing, then she started her own. So one of them was a joint account then it was explained that shared accounts was a no-no and she has stuck to her named account since. But yeah, pointless drama years after the fact. Time for someone to close this. Stalwart111 23:31, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree, except I do not know why you need to spend effort digging up her old accounts. Unless you want DNA of course... But I agree that this aspect is not important now and it is time for the whole thread to close with an extended topic ban based on the clear consensus. History2007 (talk) 23:35, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Ha ha. I don't think anyone is digging, just that Raeky found something that had previously been raised. I'm just looking for the discussion to recall what people had to say about it at the time. But there's probably not much point. Stalwart111 23:40, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for all the input. Interesting to see how your minds work when making decisions. History2007, You made misleading and untrue statements above- to persuade others to join you in this ban. Example one: You said I did not use sources and you reprimanded me for emails as a source. You made that accusation on the Roza Bal page, knowing full well that I sent an email to Joe Cribbs asking where the published sources were for use of the word Asaph. It was highly relevant to that discussion. But you preferred to blow it off and demean me again. There are other examples, but is this about getting to the truth or about supporting your own POV? Yes, I am the source. How dumb is it to write a page about me yet say that I cannot be the source? I told you the man who contributed to TOI was not being truthful. You say the TOI takes precedence over the truth- knowing full well that newspaper articles are only as good as the source. I am not the source of that information. Mr. Amin is. You damage not only me, but those who would come in the future to Roza Bal for research and perhaps for DNA. That's why I fight so hard and risk so much. It's not about me, nor my book. Is Wiki about the truth? I haven't seen much of that when History2007 comments about me- follows me around Wiki to make disparaging remarks no matter what I say or do. History2007, You have not portrayed the facts honestly, nor even the conversations between us. You have belittled me and discredited me at every opportunity. I have placed this issue up for resolution at one of Wiki's resources for Biographies- I trust we can expect their response soon.SuzanneOlsson (talk) 01:14, 10 May 2013 (UTC)Suzanne OlssonSuzanneOlsson (talk) 01:14, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I am surprised how long some of these threads on this board stay open without any admin action being taken, this one should have been dealt with a day or more ago as it just keeps getting worse. Ms Olsson has now used her user talk page to call someone named in the Times of India article about herself "a liar and a thief".[8] There needs to be some admin intervention!Smeat75 (talk) 02:56, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

And now she is making apparent legal threats "if I am blocked from correcting it or commenting on the talk pages then I will pursue this further'.[9]Smeat75 (talk) 03:29, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Yea that's clearly a legal threat... — raekyt 03:30, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Ms Olsson is leaving messages in various places begging, demanding that the article about herself, Suzanne M. Olsson, be deleted immediately. I put an "admin assistance needed" template on her talk page for her, as she was not sure how to, but I do not know if that will actually get an admin to pay any attention to this. I do think an admin should try to deal with this situation.Smeat75 (talk) 04:06, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

That's only a legal threat if she intends to pursue it through legal means. That is not a legal threat if she intends to use OTRS or another, similar, avenue. - Bilby (talk) 04:34, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Given that she hasn't taken the time to learn the basics of how wikipedia works from her own statements, it's HIGHLY unlikely she meant OTRS... but still.. it's a vague legal threat, but still can easily be construed as one. — raekyt 04:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

And unless this entire thread is concluded soon, there is a serious chance that the person buried at Roza Bal (whoever he may be) is going to dig himself out, walk to the WMF chapter office in Delhi and make demands of his own... History2007 (talk) 06:33, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I've asked on AN for an admin to take a look. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:59, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Concerns about User Kaiser von Europa (sources from Nazi Germany and by Nazi war criminals)

User Kaiser von Europa[10] (which means "Emperor of Europe" in German) has been repeatedly inserting publications from Nazi Germany and by Nazi war criminals involved in plunder and ethnic cleansing into articles about Polish cities and history to support his claims about German presence in Polish cities. I discovered during the course of my interaction with him that he is already indefinitely blocked on German wikipedia after engaging in sockpuppetry, pov pushing, and edit warring[11], an there is in fact a whole list of sock-puppets noted on German wiki(including ones where he made claims that modern Germany has right to Polish territory)

Two examples of inserting publication from Nazi Germany into article about Polish city(more can be presented):

• introduction of Der Große Brockhaus, 15th edition, Vol. 18, Leipzig 1934
• Der Große Brockhaus. 15th edition, vol. 20, Leipzig 1935, p. 25

• Example of inserting publication by Nazi war criminals and ideologists supporting ethnic cleansing of Poles and extreme nationalisminsertion of source labeled Ernst Bahr, Wolfgang La Baume, Kurt Forstreuter et al. (1981), pp. 72–73.

The source in question is a reprint of a book from 1966 by former Nazis involved with ethnic cleansing, abuse of Jewish slave labor and war plunder. Kurt Forstreuter is a known Nazi who was responsible for war plunder in Poland, Other people in the book are Erich Keyser who was a Nazi racist ideologist connected with supporting and organizing ethnic cleansing in Central Europe during Second World War and trying to re-invent German nationalism post-War by exploiting Cold War conflict with Eastern Europe. Wolfgang La Baume was responsible for propaganda claiming that most of Poland is German territory. Do note that much more could be added on Nazi background of the authors if needed. Also this is basically a simple reprint of an earlier book by Nazi Erich Weise who was responsible for exploiting Jewish slave labor and plundering Polish archives.

I discovered the background of the authors and list of them by myself-user Kaiser von Europa repeatedly evaded questions to reveal their names when asked on his talk page, instead posting statements like " I strongly recommend that you buy the book(...) The price of the book is only about 15 $, and you would own a really good book from which you could learn quite a lot indeed"[12]

Other actions besides adding Nazi and nationalist literature as source to Polish related articles include for example:

• Inserting claim that Nazi Germany in 1939 "integrated" Polish territories to Germany and removing information that they were occupied by Nazi Germany[13]

• Removing information in the same edit that Polish minority was persectued in German Empire and changing it from "Polish population suffered from heavy Germanization" to the "Polish minority complained about Germanization"

[14]

• Inserting information from 18th century German Protestant source to claim that all inhabitants of a Polish city taken by Prussia were actually Germans even if they spoke Polish language[15]

I have repeatedly asked user to change his stance and use modern, reliable sources instead of Nazis25 April Request,30 April request,1st May request to which he refused and in fact went as far as calling them absolutely reliable sources[16], while restoring sources from Nazi Germany and by known nationalist and Nazi authors(one example[17])

I am afraid the user has so far refused several friendly attempts to cease using Nazi sources and publications on Wikipedia and repeats the behavior that led to his ban on German Wikipedia. I have notified the user about this discussion[18] --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:33, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

This has already gone to the Reliable Source Noticeboard, where claims by MyMoloboaccount were already addressed by Herkus Monte [19]. As of the moment of writing, this discussion is intentionally not linked to by the OP.

I know of Der Große Brockhaus and I believe so do most German speakers. It's the German equivalent for Britannica and of highest quality. The year of publication is certainly not perfect, but for legal reasons Google Books cannot make more recent versions accessible. Calling the Brockhaus Enzyklopädie a "Nazi source" is highly inappropriate! --walkee^talkee 01:08, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

No, actually at Reliable Sources Noticeboard, all the uninvolved users (all two of them) agreed with MyMoloboAccount/OP that this was not a reliable source. While the modern Der Große Brockhaus is a reliable encyclopedia, the editions from the Nazi era, which are the ones Kaiser von Europa used, are, obviously, not reliable.

More fundamentally, the User account Kaiser von Europe has been indefinetly banned from German Wikipedia for exactly this behavior. In particular [20] [21] for spamming unreliable sources and sources which are more than two hundred years old (in violation of WP:PRIMARY), for misrepresenting sources and for making POV claims and edits. Per the linked comment it apparently took quite a while to clean up after this editor. Subsequently Kaiser von Europa ran an extensive sock farm on de-wiki to evade the block with over forty sock puppets identified (in addition to IP addresses) [22].

The bottom line here is that the book edited by the Nazi archivist Erich Weise (who was also in charge of looting Polish archives during WWII and using Jewish slave labor) which Kaiser is spamming into dozens of articles is unreliable and this has been pointed out to Kaiser, here on en-Wiki.

Even more problematically, after Kaiser was questioned about the use of this source/requested not to use it, he began inserting the same source but without attributing it to Erich Weise, for example here [23] (lots more edits of this nature can be provided), in an apparent attempt to hide the association of the source with Erich Weise and make it harder to track down. And then it gets worse. When I asked him not to do this on this talk page he began inserting the same source but now attributing it to the historian Udo Alrnold, claiming that Arnold, not Weise, was the editor of the 1981 "edition" (in actuality, just a reprint of the 1966 work, not a new edition). This is false. Arnold merely wrote a very short blurb in the 1981 reprint stating that it's just an exact replication of the 1966 work. Neither Worldcat, nor google books, nor any library in the world lists Arnold as the editor of the volume. Kaiser willfully and deliberately began misrepresenting the source further (after attempting to obfuscate its origins by omitting Weise's editorship) by attributing it to Arnold. That actually gets us into WP:BLP issues, but nm.

So what we have here is a user pushing an extremist POV, obfuscating and deliberately mischaracterizing sources in pursuit of that objective and completely unwilling to change his behavior. The extensive sock puppetry and long term abuse at German Wikipedia don't exactly inspire hope either.Volunteer Marek 01:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

It's interesting to compare Erich Weise here at en.wp with de:Erich Weise. Note how the German article makes no mentions of war crimes at all, and how the article here reduces Erich Weise to a war criminal. It sure looks like his historical work is widely used by other historicans. I can't form an opinion on this but this content dispute is not for ANI anyway. NPOV probably lies somewhere in between. Now look who is the author of Erich Weise. I have not looked at Kaisers edits but maybe Molobo et al. are on a mission... 80.132.72.31 (talk) 03:19, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

It's interesting to compare Erich Weise here at en.wp with de:Erich Weise - you mean the version that a sockpuppet of Kaiser's POVed [24]? And you are ...? Volunteer Marek 03:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I did not say that the German version looks good to me. But neither does your version here. Do you agree that he is used as source by other historians ? 80.132.72.31 (talk) 03:35, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

as I was asked i want to add some insights from de-WP.

The User Kaiser von Europa ist indefinitely baned on the German Wikipedia in january 2010. (see log.

He was appealing this ban see here without success.

He afterwards was (and is) using a large group of sock puppets.

It seems after having trouble editing on de he switched to en

(main) reason for the ban; POV-pushing. so it seems to be pretty much the same as here. He will not change that. After some talks he might pretend to change his mind or leave the topic alone; but he simply is waiting a while and probably hoping that the attention gos down.

if you have questions about the ban and actions on de please leave a not on my talk page on de. I'm not the admin who banned him first or had any influence on that ban, but I'm quite familar with him and banned a lot of his sock puppets

...Sicherlich ^Post 06:24, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

This is obviously a concerted effort by Mymoloboaccount and Volunteer Marek, both identified as a group named WP:EEML. MyMoloboaccount was several times permanently banned in THIS project [25] and Volunteer Marek was topic banned for the WP:EEML scandal under the name Radeksz.

I see that Kaiser is involved in the Copernicus article too and I wonder if it's a coincidence Volunteer Marek and MyMoloboaccount target him. Kaiser fixed the POV-pushing phrase that Copericus spoke Polish "with equal fluency".[26] Copernicus probably had some knowledge of Polish too but "with equal fluency" is an UNDUE opinion.[27] Volunteer Marek reverted it [28] with an edit summary like a threat. Had Volunteer Marek actually analyzed Kaiser's edit, he would have seen him also inserting a pro-Polish argument. On this Wikipedia Kaiser has to clean up after them like a one-eyed does among the blind.

As for the sources used, the Brockhaus Enzyklopädie is a highly reliable source. Calling it a "Nazi source" remains unacceptable. Volunteer Marek's use of sources from Poland under the Communists is happening on a larger scale... --walkee^talkee 12:43, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Stop being ridiculous.Volunteer Marek 13:16, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

It seems that when Sicherlich above says "He will not change that." that seems to be the case. Kaiser has continued adding the sketchy source in question to multiple articles [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34] (and many others) even during this discussion, and he continues to false present it as edited by another person rather than Erich Weise.Volunteer Marek 00:37, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

This is past WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT territory. One more time:

• The modern Der Große Brockhaus is a reliable source. The Der Große Brockhaus from the Nazi era (1934 etc) which you insisted on using is not.
• "Handbuch der historischen Stätten" was NOT edited by Udo Arnold. You came up with this lie after it was pointed out that the actual editor, Erich Weise, was a Nazi war criminal. You came up with it because you thought that nobody else had access to that source. [35] As it happens Arnold only wrote a short blurb in the book stating that the 1981 reprint was an exact rendering of the 1966 edition edited by Weise.
• Your von Braun analogy is completely irrelevant.
• You were indef banned from German wikipedia, by German editors, with bona fide "Teutonic" credentials for pushing extremist POV, abusing and misrepresenting sources and making offensive nationalist statements. So your claims of "Teutonophobia" (wtf that's supposed to be) are nonsense.
• You have been engaging in exactly the same behavior on en-wiki that got you banned on de-wiki. And your statement about von Braun pretty much confirms that you are still sock-puppeting extensively in evasion of your ban on de-wiki [36].

Given that Kaiser is still spamming the source by a Nazi historian into multiple articles, as well as abusing WP:PRIMARY (with other sources) and edit warring to keep it there, can someone please deal with this? The longer this takes the longer will it take to clean up this mess (ask folks at German wikipedia about the time wasted cleaning up after Keiser and his socks there).

Volunteer Marek 13:15, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

And now we have the user repeating Nazi propaganda about Polish borders being a crimethe establisment of the Polish Corridor itself could be called a crime, defending Nazi war criminal and Nazi plunder of PolandYou should also refrain from calling Weise a "war criminal"(...) are you unwilling to accept that Weise, when supervising Polish archives, had serious doubts that these documents actually were legal property of Poland? and insinuating that people researching Nazi war crimes have "low motives"If the full truth is told - I do have nothing against it - then the reader is not forced to speculate on possible low motives of the authors of the accusations --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:47, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

This request has not received any attention in more than 36 hours. Which means it will be archived "as if nothing happened". Still, this is a very serious issue, at least for anyone who takes the "encyclopedia" part of "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia" seriously - you got a user who has been indef banned on another Wikipedia project (German Wikipedia) for pushing extremist POV, misrepresenting sources and extensive sock puppeting. After getting banned there he transferred his activities to en-wiki. And he is spamming a source by a Nazi author (that's not a violation of Goodwin's Law - it's an honest to goodness Nazi author we're talking about here) into multiple articles. Is there some reason none of you admins are capable of dealing with this?

Look, I know you guys don't give a shit about content and are only interested in fighting idiotic political Wiki battles and playing insider games and acquiring facebook barnstars but this is exactly the kind of issue that this board is supposed to address. And I understand that you are too lazy to read through a report, click on the diffs and look at it for yourself (and oh my god, it might involve looking up a source or two!!!). But that's not what this site is for. Get your off fucking ass and please somebody deal with this.Volunteer Marek 03:06, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Last week it was "Wikipedia puts woman writers into a sub-category ghetto" next week (maybe not, maybe it will take a bit longer) it's gonna be "Wikipedia articles are sources to Nazi authors". Have fun with that.Volunteer Marek 03:09, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

That guy is certainly a problem. Maybe people are reluctant to remove him so you can skew it the other way around. 80.132.107.169 (talk) 08:10, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

MyMoloboaccount has asked me as an uninvolved admin to look into this. My response here may be of use/interest to other admins. Nick-D (talk) 10:13, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Nick, thank you for your comment. I would like to point out that these are definitely sources from Nazi Germany and are not involved in RSN thread you pointed out

• Der Große Brockhaus, 15th edition, Vol. 18, Leipzig 1934
• Der Große Brockhaus. 15th edition, vol. 20, Leipzig 1935

Both are examples of publications used from Nazi Germany by KvE --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:29, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Mass removal of references to soccerdatabase.eu website

• soccerdatabase.eu: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com
• playerhistory.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com

Hello. I recently came across an anon editor repeatedly removing references to soccer stats website soccerdatabase.eu with the edit summary "Removed soccerdatabase.eu link. Site is a scam. Please don't add these links". I went to their talk page and suggested that if they had a problem with the site, they take it up with the owners or hosting company rather than disrupting Wikipedia, and also directing them to Wikipedia's help pages.[37] They replied that they owned the site playerhistory.com, of which the other site was a ripoff, and they would continue removing links to it.[38]

While I doubt that either site is a reliable source in the Wikipedia sense, I don't think mass removal of links to one of them apparently by the owner of the other is a constructive approach to editing Wikipedia articles. Appreciate someone taking a look. Will go and notify anon of this thread. thanks, Struway2 (talk) 08:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

The best thing to do is to open a thread at WP:RSN. If the source does prove to be unreliable, but is used numerous times, then it can go into the Mass Cleanup section. Not that we have completed any of the previous Mass Cleanups, but we did make a start on all of them and there was a distinct improvement. I'm sure that WikiProject Football will have useful things to say. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:37, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

109.189.235.57 (talk) 09:01, 8 May 2013 (UTC) I am the one removing the links. I have been in contact with Kevin Rutherford at Wikipedia and will continue the talks with him. Just to make a point. Have a look at the domain, it says soccerdatabase.eu, then look at the logos, all says playehistory.com, then look inside the donate button, it says my email haakon@playerhistory.com. send me an email and i'll answer you to proof it. So please stop adding these links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.189.235.57 (talk • contribs)

So it does! I suggest we either delete these, or modify them to point to the original site. -- The Anome (talk) 09:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• As far as I am aware, the IP is the owner of the defunct website 'playerhistory.com' (he has a registered account, Polarman (talk · contribs) as well) - and 'soccerdatabase.eu' is nothing more than a mirror site. I believe legal action is being taken against 'soccerdatabase.eu' by the owner of 'playerhistory.com'. GiantSnowman 09:10, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Then let's delete the lot of them. Perhaps replacing them by {{fact}}, if there are no other sources, might be better than outright removal? -- The Anome (talk) 09:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd be happy with that approach, if it's clear that the site is one we shouldn't be using. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:35, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Any remaining links to both 'soccerdatabase.eu' and 'playerhistory.com' should be removed, probably easier to get a bot to do it, and then add to Blacklist to prevent them from being re-added by good-faith editors ignorant of the context. GiantSnowman 10:53, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, blacklisting them would be best to avoid editors using as a source, much like falling rain should have been, which sadly still hasn't been blacklisted and is even used to reference population data shown to be grossly inaccurate.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld

This probably needs to move to the bot noticeboard so we can sort this out. GiantSnowman 12:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

11:01, 8 May 2013 (UTC)109.189.235.57 (talk) 11:38, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Because of this issue i have taken down the original site to sort all security problems, hopefully by the end of summer the original site will be available again. If a bot can remove both playerhistory links (since they are dead anyway) and soccerdatabase.eu links it's highly appreciated. Will this mean removed in all languages? From what i can see there are 151 links to soccerdatabase in French language.

No, this will apply to English-language Wikipedia only. GiantSnowman 12:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps the IP should take the discussion to meta, to see if we can get a global action that matches the enwiki one? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Please see Wikipedia:Bot requests#Playerhistory.com and Soccerdatabase.eu. GiantSnowman 18:22, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• See also MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#soccerdatabase.eu. GiantSnowman 18:27, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

109.189.235.57 (talk) 18:24, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Lukeno94, what can i do to take this global?

Per WP:COPYLINK, we should not be linking to pages on external sites that violate copyright. If most, if not all of an external site is violating copyright, then I would suggest global blacklisting (i.e., on meta) of the whole site (otherwise blacklisting of the individual documents could be considered).

Is it established here that soccerdatabase.eu is a site that we simply should not be linking to because of such issues?

From an initial scan of the database of the last year-and-a-half, there have been many recorded additions (2418 to all wikis) of this site, some editors have added a huge number of them (one has 728 of them; but that is also true for playerhistory.com, added by someone 574 times) - I presume that the data is really useful and that some editors recognised that, unknowingly of any issues (i.e., I can not quickly identify any 'obvious' spammers - the big 'adder' above seems to be a regular on football pages on a foreign (cs) wiki). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:11, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• A note that a bot to remove all links to playerhistory.com/soccerdatabase.eu on the English Wikipedia is currently pending approval. Theopolisme (talk) 21:44, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

User Erpert Harassing, Ownership, Canvasing and Policy Shopping Issues

User Erpert has continuously harassed me by posting rude comments, false accusations, erroneous warnings and multiple banning threats to me since my first edit, as well as continued to post about me on multiple pages/sections well after I have tried to end our debate and asked him to stop. He has policy-shopped and canvased his attacks all over, in order to justify his inaccurate and poorly-sourced article (one of several articles by him that have been proposed for deletion). He attacks anyone that disagrees with him and tries to own his original articles. This is not the first time that he's had issues with other contributors, or arguments on notice boards, and I've seen him make similar dismissive comments when other editors make changes to his articles.

It started with my corrections of his original article of Vanilla DeVille [39], which has several inaccuracies and is poorly sourced (it has since been deleted by consensus and then reverted to his user pages by his request). As a new contributor and at first unfamiliar with all policies, I admit that my initial corrections included some text that was too promotional and fell under COI. However, instead of working with me on those edits to make the article better, Erpert blanket deleted every change, including non-controversial edits allowed by COI such as grammatical changes, corrections of inaccuracies for BLPs and the addition of more reliable sources. I welcome feedback and thanked Erpert on his talk page for his original comments [40] and tried to correct my edits. Again, instead of assuming good faith and working with me, he accused me of not reading (on the Vanilla DeVille talk page that has since been deleted) and immediately took the matter to COIN (where he spent more time attacking sources and corrected information instead of COI) [41]. My issue was never with the COI portion of his comments (to which I have identified myself, had my identity confirmed, refrained from any further edits, requested feedback from other editors and offered any COI-compliant assistance I can provide). Besides his abrasive attitude and personal attacks, my problem was with his blanket reverts of all edits, including COI-allowed non-controversial edits, as well as his comments about sources when he was using similar sources (or in some cases the same exact sources) that I had cited. If my sources did not work under the guidelines, the same can be said for most of his sources (which was confirmed by comments from other editors in the article deletion discussion) [42].

Even after I addressed the COI issues, he continued to accuse me of breaking a ridiculous amount of policies and refused to admit any problems with his writing, sources or his actions overall. When the COIN discussion did not work to his liking, he took it to the Admin notice board (archived and cannot find reference), and when he didn't get the response he wanted there, he took the issue to the deletion discussion [43] and related talk pages (all well after I addressed the COI issue). After he brought me up again on the deletion discussion, he erroneously warned me again for responding to his comments [44]. I posted my first warning to him for his continued harassment [45], and asked him to stop posting about me, but instead he ignored the warning and threated and accused me again, this time with vandalism [46]. After chatting with other contributors, I decided to let things cool down, and left the discussion alone for a week or two. In that time he has posted accusations and false statements about me in more locations, simply reinstated his inaccurate text, and continues to use my COI as an excuse for his poorly written article. [47] [48] Overall, he has policy shopped and accused me of breaking policy every he could find ( Wikipedia:BOOMERANG ), denied any mistakes or wrong doing, and has continued to threaten me and post warning after warning on my pages. I have never started a conversation about him, but have only responded to his posts about me (I even tried to stay out of the article deletion discussion until he brought me into it).

As for examples of his civility during this situation:

• "Did you even READ the talk page?" (his second comment to me)
• "Sheesh, grow up."
• "...you're going a little crazy."
• "...I'll also have to conclude that maybe you're not mature enough for Wikipedia."
• "It seems more like you strategically added information in the article right near sources that were already there to give the impression that said information came from those sources."
• "...so you're the one that isn't paying attention."

I believe that Erpert has issues with working together with other contributors and despises anyone changing his work. It seems as if he believes that can write whatever he likes wherever he wishes, but anything I or others post is not allowed. I have admitted my fault with COI and have tried to make amends. I would be happy to put this to rest, but honestly don't think he sees any problem with his behavior. I believe that he should stop using me as an excuse for his mistakes, plus he possibly needs a topic ban, not just due to his continued attacks, but also since so many of his related pornography articles have been recommended for deletion. Stewiedv (talk) 23:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oh, my God; will you knock it off already? Other users have been explaining the same things I have said to you, and to them you say something like, "Okay, thanks for the help." You can't just say it's a problem when I say it. And for the record, just because I simply mention your name somewhere doesn't mean I'm canvassing or forum-shopping; in fact, considering you started this thread over a week after everything else was over, you're the one canvassing. And as for some of the articles I created in the past being deleted, that happened because I created them back when WP:PORNBIO had more lenient rules (for instance, scene-related nominations alone were allowed for performers in the past). I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but this goes far beyond the scope of your wanting to preserve an article about your wife. I understand you wanting to hype up info about her but you're going about it all wrong.
• One more thing: it's interesting that you claim to be a new editor yet you already know how to make such a thorough AIN report. Erpert ^{Who is this guy? | Wanna talk about it?} 00:06, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I asked you several times to stay away from me and stop using me to justify your mistakes. I dropped everything and stayed away from wiki for a several days to let this all calm down, and in that time you kept posting falsehoods against me (such as "The article seemed to be fine until the subject's husband showed up and added all the COI edits (and he was an obvious SPA because after he was told about it for the last time, he apparently left Wikipedia)" and you continue to try and use my COI as an excuse to revert to your inaccurate and poorly-sourced article. I'm not trying to save the article at all - I'd rather have it deleted than have it full of incorrect and out of date information. You didn't correct any inaccuracies or poor sources, but simply reverted back to your original text, removing some non-COI verifiable facts and sources. Plus, most of your text is based on a 9 year old interview that came from a user-generated message board. It's also not true that your articles were only deleted in the past. You've had several proposed for deletion in the past couple weeks, including one right now for Alyssa Reece. As for learning how to make a thorough AIN report, that was easy: I just read all of the polices you continuously quoted to me without justification ( Wikipedia:BOOMERANG ) and let your actions provide the rest. Stewiedv (talk) 00:46, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Additionally, your comment above about me politely thanking everyone but you proves my point about how you communicate. Of course I thanked the other contributors because they offered legitimate edits and constructive advice without malice. You have only tried to control, intimidate and threaten in your posts. Stewiedv (talk) 02:04, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

"It's also not true that your articles were only deleted in the past."

• I clearly said "some of the articles I created in the past"...

"I asked you several times to stay away from me and stop using me to justify your mistakes."

• That's what I said to you. (An established user being harassed by a new user is probably pretty rare, but...)

"You have only tried to control, intimidate and threaten in your posts."

I don't recall controlling, intimidating or threating anyone ever, nor do I ever plan to. If that's what you think I am doing, maybe you're a little oversensitive.

Also, I can guarantee you that I will not get anything close to a topic ban. We may have a disagreement, but that doesn't mean I have done anything wrong; in fact, this discussion should signal to you that I am not the only person that had problems with the later version of the article -- and for the record, I didn't necessarily revert to my version of the article; I reverted to the last version before all your COI edits, which just happened to be the version I last edited (and yes, there is a difference). And on your talk page you said I won't leave you alone, well, all I did was mention the COI problem to people in the WikiProject who weren't aware of the discussion. You can't possibly expect me to walk on eggshells and not even make an unnamed referenced to you because you might get offended.

I'm not even going to comment in this discussion anymore because your behavior has gotten very tiresome. Erpert ^{Who is this guy? | Wanna talk about it?} 02:56, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Once again you avoid the glaring points against you, but I will respond to your comments in order:

"I clearly said "some of the articles I created in the past"..."

• You are correct, I misread your original statement, but that doesn't change the fact that you have had numerous articles for deletion, that you did nothing to correct them after the standards changed or that this is not your first issue with other contributors.

"That's what I said to you. (An established user being harassed by a new user is probably pretty rare, but...)"

• I will state again, up until this notice, I have never started a conversation about you but simply replied to your posts about me (or other users comments about this situation, which were mostly in response to your notice board and talk page posts). You continuously post about me and falsely accuse me of every violation you can think of so you can use me as a scapegoat for your poor work. I stayed away for almost two weeks while you continued to post about me.

"I don't recall controlling, intimidating or threating anyone ever, nor do I ever plan to. If that's what you think I am doing, maybe you're a little oversensitive."

• You have tried to control this document, as well as others that you created, since the very beginning, including your refusal to keep a single source or non-COI edit I provided, even when they validated your work. You have tried to threaten and intimidate with multiple bogus warnings, false accusations of breaking every policy that you could find, threats of banning and posts to multiple notice boards and talk pages. You can call me oversensitive if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't change the facts.

"Also, I can guarantee you that I will not get anything close to a topic ban. We may have a disagreement, but that doesn't mean I have done anything wrong; in fact, this discussion should signal to you that I am not the only person that had problems with the later version of the article -- and for the record, I didn't necessarily revert to my version of the article; I reverted to the last version before all your COI edits, which just happened to be the version I last edited (and yes, there is a difference). And on your talk page you said I won't leave you alone, well, all I did was mention the COI problem to people in the WikiProject who weren't aware of the discussion. You can't possibly expect me to walk on eggshells and not even make an unnamed referenced to you because you might get offended."

• Once again, you're acting like you're an admin. I don't know what the decision will be, but you will not be the one that makes it. True, there were several people that have issues with the article, and some of it were promotional changes that I made (remember, I stopped editing the article once I became aware of the COI issues, which was several weeks ago and before it went to COIN). However, many of the contributors in the discussions also had problems (and still do), with your portions of the article including grammar, facts and sourcing. Bottom line, COI was not the only issue with that document, but instead of trying to work things out and correct it, you hide behind COI and finger point. Plus, there is no difference between reverting to the last version before mine or your version of the article since you were the one that created the original text and were the only major editor prior to my changes. As for you "walking on eggshells" or "mentioning the COI problem to the people...", you seem to be trying to justify your actions. I wouldn't have had a problem If you had said "there were COI and promotional issues with the document", but you didn't. Instead, after I tried to leave the disagreement and asked you to leave me out of it, you said "The article seemed to be fine until the subject's husband showed up and added all the COI edits (and he was an obvious SPA because after he was told about it for the last time, he apparently left Wikipedia)". That doesn't sound like someone trying to stay out of a disagreement to me, but more accusations. Plus, everyone here can read the revisions and history of every page without your assistance.

"I'm not even going to comment in this discussion anymore because your behavior has gotten very tiresome."

• I agree that this has gotten very tiresome, but it is your behavior that is the problem. I hope you stop commenting about this, but unfortunately, you've said the same thing in the past, but some how you keep posting about me on more and more pages. None of this changes the fact that your writings are inaccurate, or that you've been harassing me and trying to use me as an excuse for your edits and actions. Stewiedv (talk) 04:15, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I referred Stewiedv to OTRS from the COIN dispute. Stewiedv has been confirmed as seen on the editors talk page. The experience of the editor does not matter anymore; Stewiedv is who he claims to be. Whatever the reason for the experience is moot. Moving on, Bbth of you are emotionally involved and need to step back and breathe. The issue as I mentioned before should go to the WP:BLPN and it will be out of BOTH your hands as to what happens. Stewiedv should explain the factual errors clearly, for the intention is for good. Does anyone else remember the Phillip Roth matter? While WP:ABOUTSELF covers self-disclosed material, if there is some evidence to the contrary we should be open about addressing it. No more fighting, Stewiedv should be allowed to be heard and raise the objections. The community (not just Erpert) will decide whether or not to act on those issues in accordance with policy. Okay? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:12, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks ChrisGualtieri for your input. I will review the BLPN board and procedures as you have suggested and respond accordingly. Stewiedv (talk) 04:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

As suggested, I have requested assistance with the article on the BLPN board. [49] While it doesn't address Erpert's inappropriate behavior, I hope it will help end the situation with the document itself. Stewiedv (talk) 19:20, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

---

• Will any admin please do something to get this user to leave me alone? Erpert ^{Who is this guy? | Wanna talk about it?} 07:47, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I have asked you repeatedly over the past several weeks to leave me alone and stop posting about me all over the place (hence the harassment notice above), yet you continue to do so. Even in the article discussion, you couldn't keep the conversation about the document, but again made it personal by attacking and bringing our argument into it. I have never posted in any of your other articles or in discussions outside the ones you started about me. I stepped away from our disagreement and took a break from wiki as a whole, but you still kept posting about it. For the last time, if you want me to stop replying to defend myself from your personal attacks, STOP POSTING ABOUT ME. Stewiedv (talk) 17:37, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Constantly being reverted by article owner

I uploaded an image for the Chloë Grace Moretz infobox photographed this year, and was instantly reverted by Oz Steps for this reason: "Photo changes should be dicussed first on the talk". I understand this situation on, maybe, a featured article, but on a C-class article, where the lead image was already heavily damaged by oversharpening and is not that flattering of an image, I see no problem in doing what most editors do on Wikipedia: improve the article, move the article forward, keep it updated. He did start a discussion on the talk page, which is great: but my image should have remained in the infobox which would have helped (possibly) draw people to the discussion on which image is more suited as lead image. There is absolutely no rush in removing my image since it doesn't break any BLP protocol. I responded to the discussion on the talk page and waited a day. No one else participated in the discussion; so I re-added my image to the lead, someone else came along and moved images around which goes to show (to me, at any rate) that the lead image was not problematic and not even worthy of discussing on the talk page as controversial. Oz Steps returns today and reverts my edit. Ok, if I was vandalizing a page, then I would understand this constant harassment. Why am I using that word? Because this is not the first time. In the last example, I took my allowances of up to two reverts (I was not going to push three). But this user is hindering my editing; it's crampin' my style. I want it to stop and I am now convinced that a third image I am waiting to upload would be reverted yet again by Oz Steps. So I'm simply not going to add it at this time. Please note that on Oz Steps's talk page, User_talk:Oz_Steps#Dakota, a user named User:Mareklug basically agreed that Oz Steps is owning articles. I have no idea what to do; I'm coming here for advice. Both Oz Steps and Mareklug will be notified of this discussion (Mareklug only because he or she was mentioned; they do not need to participate in this discussion). – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 03:40, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Mareklug is a happy he, as in Marek Lugowski. :) I confirm and reaffirm what talk:Keraunoscopia is complaining about. Furthermore, I had exactly this run-in with Oz Steps on Liv Tyler, see talk:Liv Tyler#New Image for more substantive assessment; I care not to repeat myself. Naturally, I, too, will notify Oz Steps of this discussion independently of Keraunoscopia's notification, to fulfill notification requirements. --Mareklug ^talk 03:49, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

This certainly seems endemic with the user, who I note does this so often that he frequently copy-pastes his revert summary ("Undid revision 552671906 by XXXX (talk), This picture since YYYY, please, do not change infobox image, before opening a discuss on talk page"). I'm also, well, sceptical regarding the babelbox on Oz Steps's user page where he claims to be a native English speaker right across from an assertion that he frequently "retrieves vandalism" from pages. This is well-intentioned, but he really shouldn't ever be re-reverting after someone has engaged him on the talk page. I'll wait to see if he responds here; otherwise I'll leave him a note to that effect. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:23, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I only brought up two examples (or "run-ins") in my opening discussion, but this has happened three times—I'm including this so to prove I'm not jumping the gun too much. The very first time, on 22 April, was on Rachel McAdams's article here. This time, I was the one who started the discussion on the talk page and someone even spoke up saying the newer image should be in the infobox, but I didn't know Oz Steps at the time or his habitual pattern. The McAdams article is GA and I was very willing to back-down in this case. I noticed his userbox about being a native speaker of English and it's more than obvious this is not the case, but I didn't think it important to mention. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 16:57, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Aside from some talk page edits, it seems as if the vast majority of this user's edits are reverts. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 19:48, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello everyone, I'm sorry for what happened here, My interests here in Wikipedia, Is the appearance images Infobox in article, I am not alone in doing for this, there are many users do this. Like what is written here next to the picture, Written: DO NOT CHANGE IMAGE WITHOUT A WP:CONSENSUS ON THE TALK PAGE; POLICY FORBIDS CHANGING IT WITHOUT ONE.

And My interests also retrieve vandalism in article, There are a lot of anonymous users, they are vandalism in article, such as what happened here. And I've retrieves it. Thank you for this talk. I'm sorry again. --Oz Steps (talk) 23:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)Oz Steps to the best of my knowledge there is no policy that mandates consensus prior to replacing/updating an image or information in an article see Be Bold and WP:DRNC (while not a policy it is a great essay in the subject) --Cameron11598 (Converse) 02:21, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

This no policy, was used from others users, before I register in Wikipedia. Well then, I'll just add free image from Wikimedia Commons to Wikipedia. Thank you for this information. --Oz Steps (talk) 03:13, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

That was added rather recently, in fact. Total fabrication of "policy", apparently meant to scare off younger editors who wouldn't know any better; and in this case, the misinformation spread. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 02:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Oz steps assistance is often useful. [50] Even necessary with photo issues caused by IPs. [51] Though other edits do not make sense, like this one which removed her father from the parents section of the infobox. [52] Which is correct and was cited and this removal was done by manual editing. This photo matter is a concern. Even bad pictures were replaced with likely more controversial ones as seen here. Or this matter. [53] Though this all caps attempt to control the images are not alone as the same text was inserted at Dwayne Johnson page. [54] But I think a pressing concern to inform the user of proper vandalism reverts are necessary as it took 3 edits to undo this simple mess. [55] [56] [57] Even personally re-adding vandalism back in before undoing the rest of the changes. First undo, second. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:55, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

User talk:68.231.15.56

This is an extreme case at this stage. See here. I think "yesterday" would have been adequate. The user is engaged in long-term harassment, the merciless hounding of others for no apparent reason, typically involving the use of "puppet" in edit summaries to attack other editors, constantly reverting for the most pedantic of reasons. The deception, disruption and violation of community standards and policies as referred to in PUPPET actually describes their own conduct rather well. When told to stop they delete responses and warnings, shout, throw strops, call others liars, etc - it's completely ridiculous what they're allowed to get away with. Just look at the talk page - calling people vandals who aren't, advice to read CIVIL, completed with "Given the way you interact with others and the snide remarks you've made in your edit summaries, sooner or later, someone is going to take issue with it." Well I am. This person has only recently been reported. At that stage they were referred to NPA, to AGF, told about dynamic IPs, and to "Stop your personal attacks, or you risk being blocked by an admin." Well they've continued as before, as they've been doing all along. They were blocked for this in January. I can see no way of way of dealing with this person. To make matters worse they are an IP themselves, and make a complete mockery of HUMAN and give the rest of us a bad name. Quite frankly I would not want to meet them in the street. I certainly have no desire to contribute any further while they continue as they are. --86.40.192.203 (talk) 03:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

the user above is a sockpuppet vandal whom endlessly changes his IP to avoid ban - this is as opposed to my own IP which I have used for over 5,000 edits - that he came over here to complain only proves that he will attempt to decieve endlessly - in 2 days from now his IP will vanish again and a new vandal IP will be created - thus 86.40.192.203 is just a ghost that wont exist in 2 days--68.231.15.56 (talk) 05:23, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

his sentence above "the merciless hounding of others for no apparent reason" is at best laughable since he is the main vandal i see each day changing his IP each day to avoid ban - and "apparent reason" is he continues to vandalise wiki which he well knows he is doing--68.231.15.56 (talk) 05:27, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

i like the laugh above how he says that "another?" user previously "quote - unquote" reported me as a bad user when it was 86.40.107.69 which traceroutes to the same guy = prove of sockpuppetry since he has made a statement that he is someone different but is just trying to create subterfuge of his real IP address--68.231.15.56 (talk) 05:32, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

i see above that the bad user sockpuppet as tells of an incident where i go banned - it is true - another sockpuppet used multiple account IP's to create a war that an admin falsely believed - meanwhile that puppet continued to vandalize wiki will i was banned--68.231.15.56 (talk) 05:35, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

and again i ask if you 86.40.192.203 - are you not all of these different puppets that traceroute to the same location

86.40.111.203
80.116.73.145
86.40.194.82
86.40.107.69

--68.231.15.56 (talk) 05:42, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• Non-admin comment: interesting how an IP doesn't realize another user may well be a dynamic IP... and from the evidence shown here, that seems to be the case. Also, didn't we have an IP on here a couple of weeks back, with the same modus operandi of calling another IP a sockpuppeter without any evidence whatsoever? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

no we are the two from before - he came on here and tried to get me banned before - if you look back you will see that he says repeatedly that he IS NOT THE OTHER IPS that i listed thus it is not that he is a dynamic Ip that HE is saying - and yet i say it is a dynamic IP as a means of sockpuppetry - the this same dynamic Ip repeatedly vandalizes wiki and yet if you ask him if he is all those other IPs he says no he is not - yet they all trace to the same location--68.231.15.56 (talk) 07:33, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• I've never seen anywhere any evidence of inappropriate conduct of the IP you say is "repeatedly" vandalizing Wikipedia. In fact, at least on this current IP, I can see some very good contributions. You, however, constantly make baseless allegations, some of which are ludicrous. Read WP:NPA and WP:AGF, and stop making frivolous accusations against people here without evidence, backed up by diffs. People don't usually choose to have dynamic IPs, so bear that in mind. To the OP of this thread: I suggest you get an account, as it'll keep all your contributions in one place, and will stop this IP from being able to accuse you of socking without any evidence. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:32, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• I have just reverted some outing here - revealing of personal information - try it again and you will be blocked immediately. GiantSnowman 09:33, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• Hello, it's me again. I've been compelled once more to respond to the most sickening of slurs this person can come up with. I see I have a different number now again so I suppose that's another crime. Well I haven't asked for that and don't know how to stop it. The place where I edit doesn't leave the computers on all night - that might have something to do with it. That and the likelihood of others using the same IPs. If I'm obliged to have an account you can remove "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" claim from your home page - sometimes it is not easy to have accounts and passwords for every website, what with everything going on around me. If it has to be that difficult I just won't bother. I also won't bother if this IP continues to fire these outrageous remarks at me about things I know nothing about and cannot have done. I have never been banned unless I've completely lost my memory. I don't go around deliberately provoking others. I don't make wild accusations or call others "liar", "vandal", "puppet", "ghost", the list just goes on and on. Sometimes I think it's possible I might be wrong - this person doesn't, they're always right. I have even had the decency to refer to them as "they" since, unlike them, I am not certain I am dealing with a male editor. And for what I hope is the last time - though it is like whispering into a gale force storm and expecting to be heard - I am not all the above. How can I be? I've checked one of them at random and it isn't even in the same country. I can't even see anything obviously "bad" in any of them. As for outing, quite a new low, but it sounds just like what this person would do so can't say I'm surprised. If it involved name and date of birth as they claim here I don't know who they've outed because I don't distribute these details and can't recall ever having done so. If I wanted Facebook I would have gone to Facebook. It is interesting that the user thinks they know all about sockpuppetry (when the evidence suggests they don't), yet claim in that same edit to another user to never have heard of outing. This is worrying, sad, dangerous, discouraging and sets off so many alarms regarding my ability to be an able contributor to Wikipedia, particularly as so much of what they do is so hostile to others. This is a clear case of an IP who, for some incomprehensible reason, wants to OWN various sections of Wikipedia, including Portal:Current events, and is prepared to scream murder until they've seen off any rival, either by scaring them away or having them banned. Either way this is bad for the encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not NOTBATTLEGROUND. How many more policies is this person going to be allowed to flout? --86.40.105.31 (talk) 14:30, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
• OK, that's a lot of words. At any rate, I have warned the other (static) IP: this has gone on for long enough and it's silly, disruptive, and insulting. Any next violation (I specified sock accusations and false claims of vandalism, but other violations may be added to the list) is sufficient reason for a block, in my opinion. Drmies (talk) 01:17, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• In my opinion, one of the better solutions for this is for the 86 IP to get an account, as I stated earlier, to remove any chance of these socking allegations having any weight. I still don't understand why an IP user would attack another IP like this, it's quite ironic. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:04, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The harmful speech of Norden1990

I want to inform the admins about the uncivil speech and dubious agressive POVs of User:Norden1990 according to WP Conduct policy WP:NPA. What is considered to be a personal attack? 1) Racial, sexist, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, national, sexual, or other epithets 2) Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views. He recently called me in edit summary a "chauvinist user" [58], called my behaviour as "hysteria"[59] and named my edits as being frustrated or chauvinist [60][61]. When I complained about this behavior on another thread [62], Norden1900 was not sorry at all, but on the contrary: he replied that "I reserve the indicatives about you" [63] + he wrote "I'm sorry, but your activity is very similar to Iaaasi's." which is in fact similar to banned User:Stubes99 edits[64]. He also called the insertion of referenced text "vandalism"[65]. User:Norden1990 also used again pejorative provocative term "Felvidek" in English discussion with Slovak editor on my Talk page [66]. This looks like a some form of ongoing harassment. Slovaks associate the term Felvidek with the period of Magyarization and consider it pejorative used anti-Slovak, nationalist and revisionist chauvinists. "Felvidék nem Szlovákia" (Felvidek no Slovakia) from web site associated with Jobbik and Hungarism(Hungarian fascist ideologue) [67]. User:Norden1990 does not see a difference between Kingdom of Hungary and Hungary. Some unconstructive discussion with this user[68][69]. User:Norden1990 also claimed: "nationality was not relevant in the 15th century", unfortunately his demasked POV edits: Jan Jesenius - Slovak person [70][71] he wrote: "Slovaks had not yet existed." which is obviously an attack + also deleted info, Slovak nobleman A. F. Kollár[72] (Note: see edit summary manipulated with latin term Natio Hungarica...[73][74][75][76][77], it was a geographic, institutional and juridico-political category, regardless of language or ethnicity[78][79]) or another nationality was not relevant... edits: [80][81][82][83]... And typical behavior, User:Norden1990 wrote "The mention of Hungarian name only raises the quality of article. No need for paranoid."[84] and here deleted name Oradea [85] or [86][87]. Indeed quality of the article first. Or his contradictory edits [88]>[89]. In the past he also had this kind of unfriendly speech:

• "then read history books, please. And not only in Slovak."[90] .
• "No one can argue with a nationalist editor, just like you, Omen1229. You have strong Slovak POV, a typical example of the historical frustration" [91]
• "It is not possible to discuss with an anti-Hungarian chauvinist, you proved this yourself" [92]
• "typical product of Romanian chauvinism" [93]
• "So you can go to hell together with your threatening." [94]

.--Omen1229 (talk) 11:04, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Its definitely not civil behavior, but I don't think there is much that can be done at this time other then DRN. The edit of Rightful ruler which placed a false banner on the page and was possibly the worst offense here. It would have to go to WP:SPI, but Norden's edit warring has resulted in locking of a page before and this problem has existed for months. While not terribly disruptive, these are minor personal attacks and a warning about personal attacks should have been issued first. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:03, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• At the very least, Norden1990 needs a NPA warning, and probably a block. There are some absolutely inappropriate statements there, regardless of whatever the OP has said in the discussions. I'm not inclined to look deeper into it, and would leave that to an admin. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

We can see the most recent act of Omen's crusade against me. Dear Omen, do you think, the article of Upper Hungary is also a racist and pejorative anti-Slovak article, because it contains the word "Felvidék"? Felvidék is a Hungarian word, which means "Upper Hungary". This phrase marks the area, hich is today's Slovakia and which was part of the Kingdom of Hungary from the 9th century to 1920. "nationality was not relevant in the 15th century" - historical fact, They were nobles (natio Hungarica) and serfs, the modern national consciousness evolved in the early 19th century.

The other issues that you brought up again has already been discussed. I would like to ask the honorable court-martial that compare the edits of Omen and me. I hope you will see the difference. Since Omen is editing, there is only problem with him. Edit wars, POV edits, unsourced and malicious edits, there is need only look at his discussion page. I can only repeat myself about Omen's attitude and behaviour. Bye --Norden1990 (talk) 13:47, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Omen's conduct doesn't excuse your own. Nationalist debates require cool heads to resolve, and calling other editors names is not conducive to that. If you keep a lid on your own behaviour it makes it that much easier to report the misdeeds of others. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

You used again provocative term "Felvidek" in English discussion with Slovak editor (me) on my Talk page [95] or in this discussion [96]. It was not in the article Talk page about "Upper Hungary". Nevertheless, also in the main article is: Any use of the word Felvidék to denote all of modern Slovakia is considered offensive by Slovaks.

I also dont understand your dubious POVs, you wrote [97][98]: "Felvidék (Upper Hungary) was an integral part of Hungary and has never had a separate territorial unit" and then here you edited article with this term + deleted Austrian Empire[99]. It looks like some form of poor provocation.--Omen1229 (talk) 10:57, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

My conscience is clear. I always strived for NPOV in my edits, and it is not my fault that Wikipedia is unable to filtering out nationalist editors, who call into question academic publications and historiographical works. I already created almost 900 articles (true, some of them are stubs), contributed in development of much, I do not think that I'd be in such a troubled editor. In contrast Omen always push his Slovak POV, ignores academic resources, get involved in edit wars, and probably is not a coincidence that he was banned already at few times. I do not see a fault with my behavior. I think (and obviously I only proclaim my own opinion) Omen is really a chavinist editor, and according to my knowledge this word does not mean insult. It looks like that is enough to accuse someone and the person in question is banned forever. --Norden1990 (talk) 14:41, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I've searched the archives and I noticed that is not the first time when Norden1990's name appears on this noticeboard. Four months ago the administrator User:Sandstein raised the possibility of a topic ban / other sanction for Norden1990: [100] 181.48.15.98 (talk) 14:29, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear Iaaasi (note: a sockpuppet), first login and after that we can discuss, and if you see this incident, I was found not guilty. Omen reported me several times, but that does not mean that they should be taken as a precedent for continue this witch-hunt. --Norden1990 (talk) 14:46, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I always strived for NPOV in my edits... > this is only based on your personal thoughts, but your edits say something quite different.

I already created almost 900 articles... > And what is point? Some users created 10.000 articles..., but absolutely this does not excuse your behavior.

User:Norden1990 post is another absurd false dubious personal views/attacks with no evidence (Omen always push his Slovak POV, ignores academic resources...).

I do not see a fault with my behavior. > Norden1990 continue with personal attacks even on this noticeboard, in the front of the admins: "Omen is really a chavinist editor, and according to my knowledge this word does not mean insult". Accusing the proxy ip 181.48.15.98 of being Iasi is also a personal attack, because your allegation was not officially confirmed, it is only your supposition which must be kept for yourself in the lack of a SPI investigation.

He also bringing here false information (that I was "banned already at few times").

He also involved in edit wars, and not only with me (so in fact Norden1990's another false information...) [101] - here his opponnent was the user Inhakito. The result is that the User:Norden1990 is highly unreliable and only his dubious POVs are acceptable (for him naturally)...--Omen1229 (talk) 10:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Do not instruct me on right behaviour. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:13, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Omen, you were "topic-banned from all edits relating to Slovak-Hungarian history for a period of 6 months, due to a persistent history of ethnic battleground editing" [102]. You were also sanctioned for "nationalist editing" [103]. It seems that the six months was not enough for you. For the case of Cabello: there were conflicting news after the death of Hugo Chávez. You can see the talk page, a cooperation evolved between the editors and I also took part in the discussion.--Norden1990 (talk) 18:36, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

You wrote here at first false information that I was "banned already at few times". In fact Fut.Perf. banned Samofi and me after few minutes of investigation but in last 17 months he had not find a time to look on "opponents" as he promised. And here is topic-banned the reporting editor'. --Omen1229 (talk) 16:12, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I note that misconduct related to Eastern Europe is subject to discretionary sanctions per the arbitration decision WP:ARBEE. Without examining this in detail, it appears there is sufficient evidence for recent problematic editing by Norden1990 (notably, personal attacks by commenting about contributors rather than content, and mislabeling content disagreements as vandalism) to warrant a warning about discretionary sanctions, which I am now issuing. If this problematic editing continues, it can be reported to WP:AE for sanctions.  Sandstein  09:23, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

You can do whatever you want. I suggest you first should look at Omen's activity here. If the style that he uses is permitted, then there's nothing more to talk about. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:13, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I fully agree with Norden1990's comment. Fakirbakir (talk) 16:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Said User:Fakirbakir who for example declared this statement: "the modern Slovakia is a neo-fascist state"[104]--Omen1229 (talk) 16:27, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

When he wrote that the neo-fascist anti-Hungarian and anti-Roma Slovak National Party (SNS) was member party of the Slovak coalition government. --Norden1990 (talk) 23:10, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• OK, I'm taking a quick look. Now, Norden1990 has clearly acted in an inappropriate manner all too often, but Omen1229 seems to quite frequently revert Norden1990, sometimes incorrectly, sometimes not. Both users edit-war across a whole range of articles, over some of the most ridiculous things (categories seem to crop up fairly often) - Omen removing a category with a frankly inexplicable reason, based on the article here: [105], and [106] is part of a particularly pointless edit war from both sides being examples of both users reverting each other, pretty much based on the fact that their opponent (so to speak) made the edit. This can either be fixed by an indefinite interaction ban (which is almost certain to fail as both edit in the same area), or a 6 month/year long topic ban on editing any WP:ARBEE-applicable articles, broadly construed for both parties, for frequent, careless and pointless edit warring in those areas, based on nationalistic motives. The latter is by far the more likely to work, and I suggest that's what is applied. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:21, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Omen1229 seems to quite frequently revert Norden1990 > here are some my last edits and please look at who started:[107][108][109][110][111][112] and here is additional Norden1990's provocation [113] > he declared: "Felvidék (Upper Hungary) was an integral part of Hungary and has never had a separate territorial unit"[114][115].

edit 105 > the article is about Slovak nobleman A. F. Kollár, also User:FactStraight reverted Norden1990's similar edits[116][117]. As I wrote above about this Slovak nobleman: [118] > see edit summary manipulated with latin term Natio Hungarica...[119][120][121][122][123], it was a geographic, institutional and juridico-political category, regardless of language or ethnicity[124][125]

edit 106 > I don't understand what is "inexplicable" about my reason ("no source for this info")[126]. The edit summary is clear and it reflects the reality: the information is unreferenced. The same idea is supported by another user (Koertefa) on the article talk page: "I do not see the relevance whether "Mercurius"/"Merkúr" is an original Hungarian name. Even if it was, it would not prove for sure that he was ethnic Hungarian [127]--Omen1229 (talk) 08:41, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/Guy_Macon

I have some problems with Guy_Macon. I want my talk page edit back: [128] that he reverted before. I need my very long talk on WikiProject Electronics addressable with sub-sections. I don't want to start an edit-war.

He is also watching my edits [129][130] in which i tried to de-escalate the situation with an administrator. He done the there proposed edits partly himself, which is no problem, but reverted my trials to write a neutral call for a discussion. [131][132] I hope i get support.

He is also not stopping to accusing me [133] [134], although i tried to de-escalate the situation.

Please help. Thank you. Tagremover (talk) 17:19, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• User:Toddst1 has already told you that his edits seemed fine, and now it looks like you are shopping this here. I don't see anything actionable in Guy's edits, what exactly are you claiming and what relief specifically are you asking for? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:27, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Now, what wrong with that, [135], and the neutral calls: [136][137], which were ok by User:Toddst1, can i re-revert all three?

No. See Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:39, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to ask you again: i read it and found nothing, but related to my first link: "Create subsections if helpful"[138], to both of the second, why should i not change it?Tagremover (talk) 17:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

'Subsections' might be helpful. New 'sections' for a single topic aren't. It is a normal talk page convention to keep discussions of a single topic in a single section, and your way will confuse people. Also, because of the way archiving works, you are liable to end up with some sections being archived before others, which will be even more confusing. As for not changing other people's comments, there are very few reasons to ever do this - and if someone objects, you should never make the same change again. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:59, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

This are subsections. [139] It is mostly that discussions are in a single section, but long edits have and are structured. Subsections are archived separately? I never noticed that in many years!

Subsections here make sense, the edit is very long. And he reverted my text, too. Tagremover (talk) 18:20, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

You have already been told that no action is going to be taken against Guy Macon. I suggest that rather than arguing about talk page formatting, you concentrate on the actual issue being discussed on the talk page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:49, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Guy Macon's behavior isn't good:

[140] Using a project page to call out an edit on user's talk page.

[141] Reference to one of least observed "policies" around here (use of preview button.) Many editors do serial editing, just looks like a "add-on" thing to complain about.

[142] Reposting a section on a user's talk page after then removed it.

[143] A totally lame pointless edit -- fighting over {'''Reply'' or ===Reply===} with misleading edit summary: Corrected improper use of section headers per WP:TPOC. Section headers must be neutral, descriptive, and are not to be used for editorializing or soapboxing

[144] Edit warring to keep editor's name in a link to a discussion which should be about content.

Chutzpah: [145] NE Ent 11:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

An error in judgement to presume that someone else's talk page was a sensibly place to permalink a discussion, but none of the rest of those are particularly troublesome. In particular, editing others' comments to remove one's own user name from them is pretty much always inappropriate. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:47, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, In some cases politely asking someone to use the preview button can be a perfectly reasonable request. Take a look at this (make sure you scroll down - there is a lot of it) and tell me if you find it easy to figure out find where a particular edit was made. This user recently got a barnstar for being "among the top 5% of most active Wikipedians this past month". I think I might know why... --Guy Macon (talk) 21:58, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

In many cases it is. This one, not so much. (wp-this and wp-that and wp-whatever ... and Didn't use the preview button!!!). Why would an editor getting a barnstar for editing be a bad thing or affect anyone else in any way? NE Ent 03:34, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• Even using the preview button, it's very easy to miss mistakes you've made (speaking as someone who is often guilty of that, and often spots them after posting) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:24, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• I think that happens to most of us, but most of us don't make 140 out of the last 146 edits to a page, and most of us don't hit the save button two or three times in less than a minute. At what point does it go beyond correcting mistakes and into saving multiple times to artificially inflate your edit count and let you put up another badge on your talk page for making lots of edits? I certainly wouldn't report it or expect any sanctions over it, but telling me that I am out of line for asking the user to preview more and save less seems a bit much. I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:15, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Sockpuppet of User:Cresix

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Cresix operated his sockpupped User:Dpanel to revert my edit to Hugh Jackman. See User:Dpanel contributions. This editor has 23 contribs, returned after Aug 2012 directly on Hugh Jackman article to revert my edit. Pls note that this sockpuppet had accidently edited his other account without changing log in, which prove that both accounts are operated by the same user. Thanks! neo (talk) 18:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Normally, reports like this go to SPI. However, I'll check into it. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. m.o.p 19:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what's going on here except I had a mild content dispute with neo about an image at Hugh Jackman and asked him to discuss on the article's talk page. I don't know if this is some sort of effort at retaliation by Neo, but I welcome a checkuser on this issue and will be happy to cooperate with that in any way. I still ask Neo to discuss the content dispute on the article's talk page, but this certainly is not worth me getting into an edit war. Thanks. Cresix (talk) 00:00, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

A normal response would be to either admit or deny the use of a second account, rather than the vague "I welcome a checkuser" response. I also note both accounts interacted with User:SuperJew on 22/23 August 2012 involving an edit war, so I get the distinct impression that they are used to circumvent edit warring sanctions. The vague response here just makes me more suspicious.--Atlan (talk) 12:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:ChrisGualtieri

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The issue is over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga#RFC my complaint is a personal attack by User:ChrisGualtieri against another editor User:Lucia Black: "Lucia, it is not up for debate. That is final. You do not respect policy and have control issues. I try to be as nice as possible, but you continue to persist and be disruptive and disrepectful to any editor who disagrees with you. Being loud and having the last word does not mean you win, remember Wikipedia not a battleground. You have been warned about personal attacks and your behavior before. It is becoming as childish as your essay which is all bad-faith and attacking. Consider this the last warning. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:11, 9 May 2013 (UTC)" Saying someone has "control issues" and is acting "childish" really does not help a discussion. When I intervened and said drop the discussion I was given a level 3 warning about being disruptive for another thing. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:47, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

That is not a personal attack at all, that is a comment about behavior.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:29, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll drop a word on the editor's page. m.o.p 19:15, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Its not great wording, but that's a pretty weak personal attack...and from my interactions with her, and reading over her recent essay, not really that off base either... Sergecross73 msg me 19:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

The warning I got was: "This is for the repeated removals of tags from pages like Shotacon and Lolicon and your uncivil comments and disruption at WP:ANIME." I only made one comment towards Chris in defense of Lucia, calling someone "childish" with "control issues" is still a personal attack and there are better ways of going about it than doing that. As for Shotacon and Lolicon I removed project tags which I thought were not under the right scope that I did once for those. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:24, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

It's a personal attack nonetheless, and, while I understand that everyone gets frustrated occasionally, it's on every editor to not let that frustration get the better off them. There are no justifications for personal attacks. m.o.p 19:25, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I admit I did not word it the best when I said the discussion was closed but I felt the whole thing was blown way out there than it needed to be. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:27, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, those two (Chris and Lucia) have been arguing over issues for days/weeks, but much of it falls more under "time wasting bickering" than any breach of policy. I'm not against a warning or talking to or whatnot, I'm just saying that's such a weak breach of WP:NPA that its not worth anything further at this point. Sergecross73 msg me 19:35, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I clarified and have removed it now. The removal of the tags after I asked for it to stop is the problem, and I had warned at the project before, but not you personally. I let the behavior part slip in, out of my mindset it was bad context. The edits to the pages here and here occurred after over 100+ tags were reverted by Juhachi and yourself, mainly Juhachi. I had taken the issue to Juhachi and the WPP, but you didn't get a warning somehow, so I saw fit to make it formal. I've since removed it and I do apologize. The issue with Lucia is terrible, as Lucia made this essay in response to our dispute, but the issue with Lucia is her insertion of knowingly false information into a page. Such as this and even reinserting it by undoing my actionhere. The matter of Lucia is a big one, but I doubt we need to go over it again. I apologize again for the warning template and have removed it. We may disagree about things, but I do take considerable issue with the now successful drive to kill the budding project, but I don't intend for it to be personal. Even your filing report doesn't show your involvement in the matter. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:4lpg=PA3415, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I accepted your apology for the record here and just want to say that I think you should have a talk one to one with Lucia, there is no reason for this bitter feud to continue on forever. As for the Hentai project I do not see it as a dead project you are pouring a lot into it and with time who knows what may happen. =) - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:35, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Off-topic discussion
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
What's the problem??? If an editor called you "childish", or tells you to "grow up", or compares you to his toddler children, that is not a PA if it is an Administrator saying those things, because as we all know, Administrators are guided by conduct of a higher standard, which takes them *above* all those petty accusations of personal attacks and whatnot. *Also*, if you go to User talk:Gregbard, you'll see that user was informed by an Administrator that his use of phrase "that is not helpful" in a discussion is interpretable as a PA, and that he was threatened with sanction over his use of it. User:Knowledge, I quote you at the top of this thread: "Saying someone has 'control issues' and is acting 'childish' really does not help a discussion", so as you can see, you are equally guilty of using that naughty phrase -- "not helpful" -- indicative of making a personal attack, and therefore, WE HAVE A BOOMERANG HERE! BOOMERANG!, BOOMERANG!, BOOMERANG! (I said it first, aren't I the cleverest editor! My mirror on the wall told me so. My mirror never lies.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 20:16, 9 May 2013 (UTC) What is not helpful is your editorializing about admin at every opportunity. We get it, you think all admin are scum. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:32, 9 May 2013 (UTC) So when an Administrator personally attacks an editor by telling him/her to "grow up", because he/she is a "child" and lacks the maturity of an adult, that is not a PA, and even if I thought it was, I shouldn't say anything to object, or anything to point out the hypocrisy of it, because WP is not about a comfortable editing environment for regular editors, it is really here for Adminsitrators and hall monitors, who want the freedom to make insults and violate PA policy, without any restriction, because they are Admins!? So I should forever zip my lip, because it interferes with Administrators' unfettered rights to make PAs without complaints from the peanut gallery!? (Good one! And thanks for sticking words in my mouth once again, that I never said or meant, and making me responsible for them. How civil! [Oh I forget, you are "universally regarded" as a model of civility. Silly me.]) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:26, 9 May 2013 (UTC) The parties involved here aren't admin. You came in and are using this as a soapbox to bash admin, when that has nothing to do with this thread. You just got through complaining about being the subject of an ANI, and yet it is this kind offtopic commenting that prolongs threads. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC) Dennis Brown, you do realize that your comment ("we get it, you think all admin are scum") is also very unhelpful, not to mention bad-mannered? Besides, how exactly is pointing out the double standard that is taking place in this very discussion "offtopic"? It isn't. ~ DanielTom (talk) 22:42, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I did not issue this report. However, long fueds should be discouraged. Meaning if an editor responds respectfully (regardless of history) the other editor must respond in a respectful manner. That said, most of the ANI reports get closed with no action, right? I noticed editor here don't want a block, but a third party to warn them. I'll be proposing something new so there can be more middleground for admins and editors.Lucia Black (talk) 20:50, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I made a mistake and I apologize. I have been trying my best to work through the issues, but I will take leave of the matter with Lucia because I do not want any feuding to continue. For a week, I will avoid the subject of WP:ANIME and its editing areas, with the exception of the newly formed WP:HENTAI pages. Lucia, we do not agree, that much is clear, but I lack the ability and the experience to resolve this without a mediator of caliber who can take command of the situation and deal with it as it matters for Wikipedia. Lucia, continues to make matters very difficult for me. I dedicate myself to some tasks and not without reason, I respond respectfully yet receive none. It has worn on me, where mere existence of the Wikiproject is unthinkable for you, even if policy states otherwise. No one is perfect, but it seems clear that this grudge has affected me personally. I welcome assistance in solving our disputes, but I do not know where to turn at this point. I did something that I do not agree with, by templating him, he has forgiven me, but the shame for my action persists. It does not matter if this came to ANI or whether or not he had discussed it with me first; I should not have done it. The problem between us and this GITS matter has spilled into several areas, which is why my avoiding of that section is warranted at this point. Outside assistance in this matter is going to be required, and hopefully in a week or so, it can be addressed with some time spent apart. I am sorry for my boorish behavior, this is not who I am. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Aries no Mur

Aries no Mur (talk · contribs): Columbus origin theories + Croats[146]. Can someone please remind me, is this Brunodam or Velebit territory? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 22:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

You're not really in the right place for asking questions, you should try the reference desk. --Cameron11598 (Converse) 01:06, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Lol? I think what he meant is that this user is probably a sock, just not sure who of. —Soap— 02:57, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

My mistake. Just another reason I should never comment on anything... ever. *Head Desk*--Cameron11598 (Converse) 17:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

It's a joke ? Brunodam or Velebit ? I'm not this person. I am a teacher in Rome. [147] (my name [148]) I simply expressed my point of view. This is a crime? I repeat. I do not know these two users... I do not know these two users.... I do not know these two users. I just wrote a comment. My first comment on the ""Croats"". I didn't do anything wrong. I am innocent. I wish you all a good day at work. My Apologies If I've "Offended" Anyone... --Aries no Mur (talk) 09:56, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Long-term harrassment by User:Unscintillating

Unscintillating has been intermittently hassling me for the last two years and I want it to stop. He has apparently held a grudge against me ever since I reverted his edits of a long-closed AfD discussion, and has been trying to stir up trouble for me ever since. His latest tactic is to edit war over links to an essay that I have contributed to, not because he actually objects to its contents (he has flip-flopped repeatedly regarding his pretext), but because he imagines it annoys me. He's been asked to stop edit warring, but is still at it- this time he apparently thinks that stating his opinion on one page gives him consensus to do what he likes on another.

Unscintillating will frequently "flag" my edits and comments as being somehow inappropriate:

• application of a really petty home-brewed template. Edit wars to keep it there. Later the template is deleted amid much laughter as being grossly inappropriate.
• [149]- Let's play "hunt the adjective"
• [150]- takes great umbrage to my edit summary. His response when I object boils down to, essentially "I was talking about you, not to you".
• [151]- more obsessing over my edit summaries
• non-sequitur, and more flogging of the old "undermining or sabotage" WP:DEADHORSE

Not content to merely hassle me, he needs to nag and nag others to take action against me- which they never see as called for:

• Here Unscintillating complains about what another editor has posted to my talk, then complains about the way I archive my talk page. Nobody decides that but me. Then he flogs the old "banning policy" deadhorse again, gets told he's wrong, pretends to have asked a different question.
• On SarekOfVulcan's talkpage: "I want a third opinion!" "I want a third opinion!" "I want a third opinion!" "I don't like that third opinion!" "I still don't like it!"
• Lengthy discussion on EdJohnston's talkpage where Unscintillating dobs me in over discussions that involved neither him nor EdJohnston. This shows that Unscintillating follows my edits looking for things to object to. EJ repeatedly informs Unscintillating that there's nothing actionable in any of my conduct (even though EJ dislikes my forthright language), and Unscintillating steadfastly refuses to accept that.

I have repeatedly asked Unscintillating to stop following me around trying to pick fights with me. I am just not interested, but he refuses to leave me alone. I request that Unscintillating be topic banned from talking to or about me, and from commenting on WP:MUSTBESOURCES, broadly construed. Nothing useful has ever come out of his input on any of these matters. For my part, I will accept the current status quo regarding links to WP:MUSTBESOURCES and will voluntarily refrain from talking to or about Unscintillating. Since I do not follow him around from place to place like he does to me, this is not an issue for me at all. Reyk _YO! 04:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it's about time to consider broader sanctions on Unscintillating. This is 2013, and I thought we'd left behind the sort of disruption present on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Global James Bond Day after the majority of ARS's celebrities got themselves banned. This is about far more than his interaction with one particular editor. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:38, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm quite familiar with you two going back and forth at each other. And I do wish it would stop. A mutual interaction ban might be wise, but I suspect it will just end up in one or both of you being banned as you can't seem to be able to stay away from each other. In any case, the diff's you've picked are really horrible for making the point you are trying to make.

• • [152] is his response to your personal attacks (sense of entitlement, bluster, etc.) I feel you come off worse than he does there. No doubt your personal attacks were justified by something else, just as his response to your personal attacks were inappropriate. But really, this isn't you with clean hands.
  • [153] Your comments are boarderline personal attacks. Your edit summary is inappropriate. Neither probably sanctionable. He highlights your use of "bullshit" in your edit summary ("endorse close, and denounce bullshit personal comments"). Both of you are being uncivil, I'd say you more than he but it's close.

Those are the only two I took the time to look at, but really, these aren't great diffs to make a claim of harassment. You seem to be dishing it out as much or more than he. Admittedly I tend to agree with him more than you and that certainly colors my opinion (were I an admin, I'd take no action in a case like this). But at the least I see two people with a toxic relationship going at it rather than one-way harassment. Hobit (talk) 17:06, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • You're entitled to your view regarding my strong language, and your description of the situation as "toxic" is completely accurate. But the point you're missing is that Unscintillating actively seeks me out, while I try to avoid him. I have attempted many times to withdraw from interaction with him, but he just won't have it. Reyk _YO! 23:06, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
• Taken individually most of that is just everyday unactionable incivility but taken as a whole there's a rather unpleasant pattern that rises to harassment or at the very least unreasonable hounding. I'd say Unscintillating needs a polite but firm warning that ANYTHING further on their part against Reyk will result in increasingly long blocks. At some point enough is enough. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 21:24, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
• My anonymous-coward opinion of Unscintillating--after some years of seeing him around the wiki--is that he is likely a returning user who was likely banned, sanctioned in some other way, or at least "left under a cloud" in their previous incarnation. A lot of his doings look like hounding and stalking to me, and not just against Reyk. One of the reasons I've not bothered with an account (or edited much) for a lengthy period of time is people like him being an increasing proportion of wiki editors in the latter years of Wikipedia. --AC 5.12.68.204 (talk) 07:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• Reyk is a deletionist while Unscintillating is an inclusionist. When you analyse their interactions systematically, they seem to be just as one would expect - AFDs, associated noticeboards and policy pages. They seem to be struggling for control of the amusingly ironical arguments to avoid but this is Wikipedia and, per WP:LAME and WP:LIGHTBULB, such behaviour is to be expected. A change of scene might do them both good. As this is a storm in a teacup, perhaps a spell in the teahouse for a nice cup of tea and a sit down ... Warden (talk) 08:49, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me or not. I've already made it clear that I do not want strife and argument, by accepting the current status quo on WP:MUSTBESOURCES and links thereto, and voluntarily avoiding Unscintillating. I'm not sure what more can be demanded of me. Unfortunately, Unscintillating refuses to leave me alone; he enjoys needling me. I want to edit the encyclopedia in peace without him turning up every month or so to pick a fight over some abstruse point of order that exists only in his own mind, or badmouthing me to some admin behind my back. Unscintillating will never voluntarily agree to leave me alone, so here we are. Reyk _YO! 09:37, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• The current "incident", and, as confirmed by Reyk saying he wants the "current status quo on WP:MUSTBESOURCES", the reason Reyk is here begins with an edit by JamesBWatson in April 2011.  The history of this issue is listed at WT:ATA#History of TMBS.  While consensus was against adding this material, a few editors were not convinced, and on 1 May 2011 I set up a discussion structure that would allow a more thorough discussion.  On 2 May 2011, unable or unwilling to participate in the discussion, Reyk created an essay that was a content fork of the deleted material.  Occasionally over time, editors have confused this essay with policy/guideline based arguments, such as the IP editor at Template:Arguments.  I later removed this link, but Reyk argues in effect that since the link sat unnoticed for over a year, there is consensus to have the link there, and that no discussion is needed.  [154] shows that in the most recent edit Reyk reverted me without an edit comment and marked the edit as "minor" meaning that he marks my edit as vandalism.  Both WP:CONSENSUS and WP:Edit warring say that discussion is required.  I took the revert to WP:AN3, but the case was closed saying that the discussion belonged elsewhere.  Unscintillating (talk) 12:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Nationalist edits

Webvip (talk · contribs), previously suspected of being a sockpuppet of User:Acadēmica Orientālis has come to my attention recently for a couple of edits performed on Okinawa Prefecture and Ryukyu Islands. He added a sentence to each article with this as the citation with the claim that sovereignty over the islands is questioned ([155] [156]). I reverted on Ryukyu Islands yesterday, as his commentary was most definitely not supported by the text, and then I wrote a more accurate statement based on the news article. Today, after breaking the link to add the Chinese name of the disputed islands group to the article, he once again warped the text to a more nationalist view, which I reverted, and then also removed the article when it had been added to the Okinawa Prefecture page. It would seem that Webvip's edits have been problematic when he first began editing, but now he has been solely editing to bring this dispute between China and Japan onto the articles about Japan where they had not been prior.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:06, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

We're in luck -- he is not a subtle POV pusher but is kind of blatant, and can't be bothered to even find sources for his claims. He needs to refrain from further behavior like that. Shii (tock) 09:15, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

deletion of my remarks

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

thank you to User:Obiwan Kenobi for pointing out that female comments on this issue are being systematially deleted. the continuing outgrowth of WP's informal policy to squelch non-male, non-subculture remarks. -Aerolit (talk) 09:37, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

What issue, where? Whose comments are being squealched? What are you talking about, and what admin action are you asking for? Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:25, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Re-opening what in my opinion was a prematurely closed discussion. This issue here raised here is one of editor behaviour, and one that may require administrator attention. The merits of the issue should be discussed. Even if it should be rejected with no administrator action required with a discussion leading to that outcome, that discussion still needs to happen. --Shirt58 (talk) 11:09, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

What? There's your context. A conversation you were involved in yourself half an hour beforehand. This isn't something that needed to be dragged back to ANI. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:34, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

WP:DIFFS or Help:Links would be really helpful to responding editors. NE Ent 11:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
@Aerolit. What evidence of "squelch non-male, non-subculture remarks" can you provide? What remedies would you suggest? --Shirt58 (talk) 11:31, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a misunderstanding. See the thread on Aerolit's talk page. I saw a revision of Aerolit's being rev-deleted by an admin - I wasn't sure if it was because they had said something they shouldn't, or because they were caught up in a broader set of revdels that removed personal info - so I just notified them. I think they misinterpreted it as censorship. Just check the edit history of this page you'll see what happened. I really don't think there's anything here - IMHO this was just a misunderstanding, perhaps caused by my less-than-informative note to Aerolit. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:29, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Wow. We I thought we had enough dramah without accidentally generating it. Although, Aerolit's response to a non-event is pretty poor (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:48, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

How many times are we going to have a discussion about Beyond My Ken before some action is taken. He's a confrontational abusive editor and some action needs to be taken about his constant abuses of other editors. Every week we see a new thread in ANI or elsewhere. Enough is enough. Kumioko (talk) 13:06, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Beyond My Ken appears to be a redlink. If the evidence is so compelling (and pervasive) a RfC/U should be easy to populate. Start there (and document the multiple times he's been confrontational abusive editor) so that an attempt to resolve this by agreement can happen. Hasteur (talk) 13:11, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

He had one under a previous user name (on a different, and now mercifully resolved, matter), but seeing as he isn't the subject of this thread (and also seeing as Kumioko is his number one fan) I'd discount this particular sub-thread. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:17, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Not deleted Special:Contributions/Aerolit shows only one recent ANI by Aerolit. It's right here: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#American_women_painters. What occurred is GiantSnowman (talk · contribs) removed and revision deleted (revdel) an outing by an IP editor; every edit between the outing and the revdel contains the outing material and is therefore not "diffable" and appears in the ANI history as a strikethrough. It's confusing and should probably have a better interface but that's off topic here and now. NE Ent 13:29, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for making it more clear. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:48, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

You can still provide a link to the diff, but the text will only be viewable by Admins. If my RevDelling was over-zealous / if there is a better way to do it then please let me know, I'd be interested to learn for future. GiantSnowman 14:32, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a non-issue now - can an admin close it out? It was just a misunderstanding. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Legal threats (I think)

User:Mediolanum posted a legal threat on the talk page of Potential superpowers. I removed it and warned the editor about WP:NLT. Today he has posted what appears to be another legal threat on my talk page. Although the english is so broken it is difficult to tell. Would an admin please remind this editor of WP:NLT. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:37, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

That's not a credible legal threat. The only issue here is whether or not to delete all the trolling on the thread in question. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:48, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Credibility is not the criteria here. This is a clear attempt by the user in question to change the behavior of other Wikipedia users to his own liking by threatening to use legal action. Absolutely within the letter and spirit of WP:NLT, and I will be blocking presently. --Jayron32 15:28, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Certainly not a legal threat, and not even chilling if it's illegible. Reporting to the postal police? Editor certainly needs education, but a block would be overkill (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:47, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I believe it was meant to be a legal threat; in Italy, the polizia postale (postal police) is tasked with, among other things, investigating all crimes committed using a computer – and this guy's "direct offending" was probably "injury". Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 16:45, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Amiram Goldblum

I proposed the article on Amiram Goldblum for deletion because there is substantial evidence to prove that the article is an autobiography. The user who created the article has been accused of sockpuppetry. It seems like mostly very partisan people edit the article. I'd like to hear the opinion of experienced users. If I'm wrong in proposing the article, I would like to know why. Thank you very much. Nataev (talk) 15:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The article was created by Soosim; I have heard no suggestion that s/he is a sockpuppet. Please remove that unfounded allegation. Further, the creation of an autobiographical article, or editing of an article about oneself, is not forbidden, and is certainly not grounds for deletion of an article edited by many editors about a prominent individual. And if you think that "partisan" people should not be editing the article, I presume that you will also be recusing yourself from it. RolandR (talk) 16:31, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

At best, Nataev was not wrong in prodding the article once -- but he was certainly wrong in restoring the prod once it had been removed and in trying to insist that only an admin could determine its outcome. Not hard to see how this ANI section will turn out. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:39, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• I would also suggest that this edit summary is a BLP violation. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:41, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Haha, OK, he is a "prominent person"! I'm not willing to spend any more time discussing the article on this "prominent" juvenile who wrote an article about himself. Best, Nataev (talk) 16:45, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

"Juvenile"?? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes that's a rather odd characterisation. According to the article, the person is in his 60s. That's not an age considered juvenile in probably 99.99% of the world. If the OP is calling the person 'juvenile' for reasons other than age, that's likely a BLP violation and/or a personal attack. Or does the OP not know what 'juvenile' means or did the OP either fail to read the article they kept trying to PROD? Nil Einne (talk) 11:23, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Personal attacks on article subject and other editors

The edit summary linked above [157], shows Nataev referring to Golblum as an "idiot". There is now an edit on the talk page where Nataev refers to Goldblum as a "pseudo-scientist". In addition Nataev is attacking other editors, calling one of them "pathetic" and "a joke" [158]. I don't think this editor should be editing in this particular topic area and in fact should spend a brief period not editing at all. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 04:53, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Nataev thinks he is entitled to his own opinion. He is pretty sure that only an idiot would write an article about himself on Wikipedia. He is not interested in "this particular topic" at all. He is just amused by Goldbum. Nataev (talk) 09:58, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Nataev called Goldbum himself "pathetic" and "a joke." Let's not forget that it is Goldbum himself who has written the article on Goldbum. Nataev (talk) 10:08, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

...and calling the subject of the article names would be a WP:BLP violation (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:13, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Wow, Nataev didn't know that! You see, he is a new user! Well, not really, he is just kidding. But he is making progress. Goldbum has taught him to talk about himself in the third person. Nataev (talk) 10:20, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

So, talking about yourself in 3rd person is ridiculous; calling an editor names is a violation of WP:NPA; calling the subject of an article names is a WP:BLP violation; creating an autobiography is not only frowned upon, but completely dumb ... between the lot of you, you all need to go away and fix things. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:25, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with this: "creating an autobiography is not only frowned upon, but completely dumb." So, a person who does dumb things is by definition dumb. That's my whole point! Seriously though, I don't want to spend any more time on this stupid matter. Nataev (talk) 10:39, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Wrong and warped logic. Very smart people (PhD's for example) do stupid things all the time (like drive while drunk). To say "a person who does dumb things is by definition dumb" is, well, dumb. On Wikipedia we comment on edits, NEVER on the contributor - period. Nor do we ascribe traits the way you're trying to, because that's just plain dumb (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Great, thank you for sharing with us your ingenious philosophy. You're indeed very smart. Nataev (talk) 10:50, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Goldbum taught me new words like "lier", "vandalizer" and many others. You taught me to use the apostrophe when forming the plurals of capital letters used as nouns. Nataev (talk) 10:50, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Offtopic comment about Bwilkins. Take to his talk page or file a new WP:ANI report on Bwilkins. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:48, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
BWilkins, you yourself keep commenting on the contributors. Just now you indirectly called Nataev "dumb", twice. (Faz o que eu digo, não faças o que eu faço.) ~ DanielTom (talk) 11:00, 11 May 2013 (UTC) It seems clear BWilkins is referring to the behaviour rather then the person. Perhaps not the best way to handle things, but they do have a point that there's been a lot of silly behaviour all around. In any case, this thread is likely best closed. The behaviour I've seen while poor does not rise to the level requiring admin attention (even more so since Nataev has said they intend to withdraw). As others have said, once the PROD has been removed, it can't be re-added, and there's no need for an admins involvement (well unless someone keeps trying to readd the PROD). Take if to AFD if needed although as also pointed out, whatever the merits of the article, you should have more than it being created by a user with a COI. And stop the personal attacks of BLP violations, or this will rise to a level requiring administrative attention. Nil Einne (talk) 11:27, 11 May 2013 (UTC) Nil Einne, if I say that your "behavior" is (e.g.) immoral, then I am suggesting that you are immoral. It's just a simple logical step. You see, that is something BWilkins has done in the past, and keeps doing. As an admin, he should have learned to be more respectful by now. ~ DanielTom (talk) 11:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC) No. It is not a logical step; it is an assumption, which may or may not be baseless. Because we assume good faith, such an assumption is assumed to be baseless, and therefore in need of proof, if made at all. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC) Except that it wasn't "offtopic". See the title? "Personal attacks on article subject and other editors". (Sounds very on-topic to me.) Anyway, it seems that pointing out double standards is always very uncomfortable (for admins); Please revert this after you read it, Dennis, thank you ~ DanielTom (talk) 11:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• This post by Nataev (which was deleted by a subsequent edit to ANI) and the others in this section do not suggest that Nataev intends to stop making personal attacks or to edit I/P related articles (particularly BLPs) with the appropriate attitude. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:26, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Advice regarding handling offensive user page

Please see the user page of St.HocusPocus (talk · contribs). I'm pretty certain that it is both offensive and out of line, but I wanted to ask for advice on how to handle this, what to cite, etc, as I haven't really addressed an issue like this before.

(I know ANI prerequisites are usually notifying the user, and trying to work it out beforehand, but I haven't done this because I figured this topic was more about me wanting advice on policy and enforcing it rather than needing actual intervention. I plan on handling it myself, outside of ANI, once I know what to say. If this is wrong, I'll gladly notify him though. Thanks!) Sergecross73 msg me 17:20, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

You have to notify. Whether or not it was okay to come here before a direct approach, you have to notify the user now that you've started a discussion here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:26, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, done. Sergecross73 msg me 17:28, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Not seeing anything particularly actionable here. Can you point at which section of WP:UP#NOT you think it meets and why you think it needs "immdediate" intervention by a Administrator? It's relatively tame compared to some of the "It makes the eyes bleed" user pages I've seen. Hasteur (talk) 20:48, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, I didn't think it was especially appropriate to be calling a group of people "self-righteous racists". It kind of goes against the entire second paragraph of what you just linked to, if you ask me. Sergecross73 msg me 20:57, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Also, WP:UP#POLEMIC. Sergecross73 msg me 21:01, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Again, compared to some of the of the truly polemic comments and content and referring to it in such an oblique manner I personally (even though I'm not an admin) don't see anything actionable. Hasteur (talk) 21:08, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Hasteur. Compared to what I've seen pop up at MfD at times, this page is particularly meh... If you feel strongly that it should go, my advice would be to talk to the guy or nominate it for deletion. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 21:12, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Huh. I guess I haven't seen any bad ones in my time here then. It stuck me as rather offensive, and not conducive to creating an encyclopedia. This certainly isn't my area of Admin expertise though. My approach probably would have been something along the lines of "Hey, people find this offensive, and its frowned upon per WP:UP#POLEMIC, so I was wondering if you would remove it." but it looks like thus far that's not in fact people's reaction to it, so I suppose I won't bother, unless someone says otherwise. At least I know what to cite for the future. Sergecross73 msg me 23:32, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

You find it offensive that I took offense at being called a "hilljack”? Really now, I'm 'out of line' for calling a 'goth' a racist for using a racist slur? But calling someone a ‘hilljack’ for liking a genre of music a ‘goth’ doesn’t like isn’t out of line?

Your views are warped, mate.

To clarify this, the term ‘hilljack’ didn’t offend me on a personal level, as I am not a southerner in any way shape or form. If I must clarify further, for the sake of this explanation, I am a white collar northerner who happens to be extremely liberal and socially progressive. What I found offensive was the self-righteous attitude of most self proclaimed ‘goths’ that I’ve had the displeasure of communicating with whether online or in real life…that they are somehow superior do to their taste in music and their taste in clothing.

The person in question who originally tossed the ‘hilljack’ term at me, was someone with a limited understanding of music, who was under the impression that the band “HIM” is a metal band, and who views anyone who listens to “metal” as a redneck, and because I added the band “HIM” to the “List of gothic rock bands” page (with a wealth of reliable sources to back it up) he/she got upset and couldn’t see past his/her self-perceived social superiority and called me a hilljack for it.

That was the issue. --St.HocusPocus (talk) 00:25, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Quite frankly, I don't believe I've ever heard of the term "hilljack" before. It must not be something people say where I come from. I had no idea it was such an offensive word; without knowing the background, that sounded like it had all of the offensive edge of calling someone a "jerk face" or something. That being said, the point still stands. Its not like "two wrongs make a right". Is your defense in all of this really "No Serge, there's not just one offensive generalization in my User page, there's two. Like that makes it better or something? Sergecross73 msg me 04:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

User:UConnSam and Wayne Worcester

In fall of 2012, User:UConnSam added significant misinformation into the Wikipedia article on Wayne Worcester as did an IP editor who is possibly the same person. See [159] and [[160] for diffs. According to [161] Worcester complained about the misinformation during his ceremonial retirement lecture. I fixed the info, but should anything else be done? Smartyllama (talk) 18:20, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

You forgot to notify UConnSam (talk · contribs) of this discussion, I have done so for you here --Cameron11598 (Converse) 19:33, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Legal threat on Help Desk

See [162]. Not sure of best response here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:30, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Looks like the IP is already blocked indef. 3 months ----Cameron11598 (Converse) 19:40, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Specific legal threat from IP claiming to be subject

• Susan J. Elliott (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• 108.6.182.89 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

She claims that since the article was created by a couple of her fans, and she and her publicist are just "improving" it by smarming it up with lots of glurge about her charitable work and fluff about appearing on TV, there is no COI and she is not committing autobiography. She makes much of the fact that she's a lawyer. Oooohh, I'm so scared! --Orange Mike | Talk 19:41, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The thread above this is actually about the same user... Cameron11598 (Converse) 19:43, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Just a minute. The IP makes a legal threat against Orangemike, so Orangemike blocks for 3 months? Is this even remotely appropriate? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:47, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Not sure but For someone who says they are not threatening legal action they sure use the words libel and legal action a lot. Cameron11598 (Converse) 19:50, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it is ok, it's not like his actions were against policy they line up with "No legal threats" Cameron11598 (Converse) 19:52, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that a legal threat was made. I'm not disputing that a block might be appropriate (though I personally think it might have been better to try and calm the situation down a little first). I am however suggesting that since Orangemike was the recipient of the threats, he shouldn't have done the blocking. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:57, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The not making legal threats thing wasn't aimed at you it was a reference to the ip's talk page (they keep saying they aren't threatening legal action but then define the legal definition of libel) sorry! But I do agree perhaps a different admin should have done the block but his actions weren't erroneous so I'm gonna AGF --Cameron11598 (Converse) 20:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I see no violation of WP:INVOLVED ... (✉→BWilkins←✎) 20:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The IP specifically mentioned Orangemike in the legal threat. How much more involved could he get? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:08, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm more than willing to abide by the community's consensus in cases like this. I thought the basic WP:DOLT more than outweighed any trivial violation of the letter of WP:INVOLVED; but if most other editors agree with Andy (who's not as much of a grump as he pretends), I will follow your collective judgement in the future. (And if somebody really wants to remove my lblock and substitute one of their own, I won't consider myself wronged in the slightest.) --Orange Mike | Talk 20:14, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Being the target of threats doesn't make you involved, in the Wikipedia sense. If it did, anyone could challenge any block by threatening the blocking admin. I could see why OrangeMike's actions here might be a bit questionable...he edited the article in a non-admin capacity prior to semi-protecting it and blocking the IP. But I wouldn't overturn the block if I had the capability to do so. Bobby Tables (talk) 20:32, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it's generally inadvisable to do the block unless it's clearly and unambiguously a legal threat. "I will sue you" type obvious IRWolfie- (talk) 22:36, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

To clarify, I think this is such a case, IRWolfie- (talk) 20:19, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Just to state, all the major IP contributors to the article are NY based IP's... which her IP is one too... User:68.197.57.102 , User:216.223.171.102, User:216.6.129.115... might throw a kink into her not autobiography story if indeed all those was her too. — raekyt 19:59, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Considering she is based in that area, it's not inconceivable that her fans are in that area. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:38, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Could someone with some experience at handling issues with BLP subjects in a tactful fashion—perhaps someone with OTRS access—please intervene here and help to defuse this situation? Unfortunately, I can't do much myself right now as I'll be offline for much of the weekend. The subject's references to legal action are obviously inappropriate, but the way this has been handled on our end is clearly suboptimal and is not doing much to deescalate or resolve the situation. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:39, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how we can work anything out with a person who is screaming threats of legal action and then screaming that they didn't just make a legal threat. I don't know what was done different here than in every other case of WP:NLT, blocking unless and until they retract the threat, which says "PLEASE REMOVE THE PAGE OR ANY ACCUSATIONS THAT IT IS AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL OR I WILL TAKE LEGAL ACTION." It is long established that standard operating procedure in any case of a unambiguous legal threat like that we block. Why they now are trying to act like they never said that when we have diffs showing it is not our problem to solve, if they refuse to retract the legal threat or even admit that they made one then they are going to have to remain blocked. It's not as if it would require some great effort on their part to switch from lying to just saying "I will not take legal action". Nobody wants or expects an apology and a boquet of flowers, just a retraction of the threat. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:35, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Anon IP Special:Contributions/108.16.141.114

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newly editing, single purpose IP editor, repeatedly adding (Special:Contributions/108.16.141.114) a wordpress external link to highly controversial Gun violence in the United States article. Was automatically reverted by XLinkbot, by other user User:TomHarrison and myself. in spite of another un-involved editor chiming in that his link was inappropriate, and the other reverting editors, they have singled me out with bad faith censorship accusations Talk:Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#Anti_gun_control_users_censoring_this_page and other personal attacks. Ironically additionally accuses me of bad faith by notifying the talk page of a new DOJ study, saying that that is an attempt to suppress information, because I didn't just directly add it to the article! Would appreciate a warning, trouting, or whatever other action admins feel is appropriate. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:08, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I semi-protected the article yesterday, I believe in response to a report you filed at WP:RFPP. It's protected for only 3 days becuase there wasn't a great deal of disruption. However, if the disruption continues after the protection expires, feel free to ask me directly to re-protect the page, or if I'm not on-wiki, you can always file another report at RFPP. I wouldn't let the accusations of censorship and POV get to you. It's a controversial subject area, and there are bound to be editors, IPs and others, ranting at other editors. I'm not saying it's excusable, just that I don't see much point in lecturing a dynamic IP on the subject.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:13, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

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Wrongful Blocking By Administrator

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User:Ymblanter blocked me for "disruptive editing" for opening the edit request at: Talk:Robert_B._Bell. I was told at this administrator noticeboard to use the edit request function because the edit filter was rendering false positives. Please inform this administrator to stop interfering with the discussion on that edit request. 68.50.128.91 (talk) 21:13, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The whole story is in real time is written on the IP talk page, including two unblock declines. I am afraid next attempt to reopen (for the sixth time?) the discussion may result in a longer block (which I hope someone else will take a labor to impose).--Ymblanter (talk) 21:30, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

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User:4WhatMakesSense is trolling

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This user seems to have a pattern of disruptive edits. He/she does not accept the WP:NOR policy, even when others tell him/her that it is an Wikipedia policy. From his/her article edits shown at Special:Contributions/4WhatMakesSense it seems that he/she is a troll. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:37, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you understand anything they are saying? It's like reading walls of gobbledygook, at least to me.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:49, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, I can understand what is being said when I am being compared to Judas Iscariot and told that my fate is death. That's rather easy. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Help us out a bit with a diff.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:14, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

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User:1UPRep

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This editor's name implies that he represents 1UP Reputation. If so, it is unsavory that his first action here was to nominate a competitor's article for deletion. Naturally, he botched our Byzantine AfD process; I could fix the nom, but unless someone without an obvious COI wants to advance the nomination, think it should be deleted instead. Kilopi (talk) 02:20, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

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Autismal at Talk:Bloomex

Autismal (talk · contribs) insists upon keeping this talk page comment, which IMO is intentionally trolling as the proprieter of Bloomex is purported to have edited this page and is presumably a watcher as well. I have warned Autismal [163] but apparently that did not work. On a side note, I'm glad to see that I've joined the cabal of corrupt malicious editors scratching each other's back and I'm apparently about to fuck off. Would an admin kindly warn him that this behavior is not appropriate?  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  15:03, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Autismal's behavior with repect to Bloomex and you is just the tip of the iceberg. They have 300 edits, of which a whopping 193 are to article talk pages. Their edits of those talk pages are egregious violations of guidelines and policy, including a continuing theme of anti-semitism, or at least preoccupation with Jews. I have just gone through removing a great deal of material from the talk pages edited by Autismal. As far as I can tell, they have made either no or almost no constructive contributions to Wikipedia since first editing last year. I have indeffed them (they have had plenty of warnings on their talk page, all of which they have removed).--Bbb23 (talk) 15:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Vague Legal Threat by TheRealJKO

A post to Wikipedia:Help Desk by User:TheRealJKO accuses User:Demiurge1000 of threats and in turn contains a legal threat. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:07, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

WHY WILL NOBODY DO SOMETHING TO HELP? WHY DO YOU ALLOW THIS ABUSE TO CONTINUE AND KEEP THREATENING THE PERSON BEING ABUSED? WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THIS SITE? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRealJKO (talk • contribs) 15:09, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Take a chill pill dude. What's going on? This is a board where you can discuss this and get a bit of help but SHOUTING will only harm you. If you have made a legal threat as per WP:NLT please withdraw it and maybe we can solve the issue. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:14, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Do something to help Dude. Continuing to insult me isn't helping. I have sent emails to all the places wiki instructs you to send them and while they are being ignored, the threats and insults continue. Pickette has now added defammation. Stop the comments and nobody will feel the need to take any legal action. It's quite simple. And perhaps before jumping in with a sarcastic comment, dude, it would be better if you acquainted yourself with the facts and then commented. Dude. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRealJKO (talk • contribs) 15:18, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok the problem there is that if you don't discuss it here civilly, it won't get solved. Right now you are on the short side of stick by making a legal threat. You may be riled but nothing in what I said was sarcastic dude. The thread here was created specifically for the legal threat but if there is issue behind it we can tackle that WP:BOOMERANG style. It happens quite a bit, your choice though you can briefly summarize and get helped or in the end be blocked for a legal threat. Only trying to help ya bro. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:26, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Then go back and read my original posting. Dude. Then read the replies and remarks. Dude. Then when you're educated on my original comment and the post I made, feel free to comment. Dude. Until then, it appears you know nothing about the subject and thus have nothing to contribute. Dude. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRealJKO (talk • contribs) 15:33, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

The posting shows you asking what is wrong with the site and the people on it. I was asking for you to give your side. You see the way wikipedia works and especially on this board works is you link the people to the issue you are having. This only benefits you dude, if more people can see the problem you are having without having to play Sherlock Holmes you will have a much better result. If you want the help meet us halfway bro. Like I said your choice but it's clear that you have made a legal threat and unless it is retracted will likely be blocked until that is complete, it's a lot cheaper to take a few minutes and write out what you are saying is defamatory. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

To clarify "You see the way wikipedia works and especially on this board works is you link the people to the issue you are having." is literally only because you're newer to the site. Don't take offense cause none is needed but this is a callaboritve process and I can and will help you if take a minute to tell me what's happening. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:41, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

See Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2013#John Kennedy O'Connor as San Marino commentator Heiro 15:50, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I just wrote a really long response, but it did not post. I really don't think I have the energy to write it again. I asked for a debate to be removed. It wasn't. As a result of trying to resolve it, I have been threatened, abused and defamed. I have had enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRealJKO (talk • contribs) 15:55, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Judging by that conversation I linked to above, you have not been threatened, abused or defamed. Someone was trying to clarify a reference per our policies on WP:CITE, WP:RELIABLE and WP:VERIFY. You do not get to blank discussion you do not like. And you had better withdraw any and all suggestions of legal action per WP:No legal threats or you will be blocked by an admin until you do or until all legal actions are concluded. This is not a threat, it is policy here. Heiro 16:01, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

If you do not think that what Pickette has written is defamatory and that another user described me as "claiming" to be who I am, then you have misread the situation entirely. TheRealJKO (talk) 16:09, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I have had some involvement via the discussion thread that Heiro has highlighted. From what I gather, User:TheRealJKO deleted an entire thread because they stated the thread was an "insulting debate" against him. The user also states that he is John Kennedy O'Connor, although I'm not disputing whether that fact is true or false. The discussion at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2013, was regarding sources that were vague on whether Mr Kennedy O'Conner was providing live commentary for San Marino at next week's Eurovision Song Contest. It was pointed out during the discussion that neither of the sources used verified this fact, and thus we agreed any details about JKO being a commentator should be omitted from the article until we could verify this with a reliable source. However, TheRealJKO appears to have taken some upset and distress at what has been written, and I can see partially why one would be distressed when they are being discussed about openly. Although in my opinion, it may appear that the wrong end of the stick has been grasped here. There have been a few people trying to advise these points to The RealJKO in a civil manner, but it baffles me as to why things have blown way out of control. Wesley♦^Mouse 16:03, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Specifically how were you defamed? You are no longer dead, the article shows that but I'm not understanding where anyone has defamed you? we do have policies that relate to the biographies of living people but right now frmo the outside I don't see anyone insulting you or otherwise defaming. I do show that the commentator stuff was removed due to lack of verified sources but that can be rectified when it is reported for the news or in a news article. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:11, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you missed this: "I think that the TheRealJKO account and their previous unregistered IP edits on this page are related to a banned account (TVArchivistUK) because the IP address used to add similar information to the 2012 contest article has since been blocked for sockpuppetry of this account. The tone this user employs in discussions is very similar to all of exchanges this user has had and is currently having with this account and their other unregistered IP accounts. Here is the edit from the 2012 page. Pickette (talk) 14:52, 11 May 2013 (UTC)" I don't even know what this person is talking about. To acuse me in this manner is defamatory and potentially libellous. TheRealJKO (talk) 16:18, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you also missed this: "In a related issue TheRealJKO (talk · contribs) removed this entire talk page section, after claiming to actually be O'Connor. I have since warned this user and restored the text. Mr. Gerbear (talk) 03:52, 11 May 2013 (UTC)" Someone bragging about making threats. In their own words. TheRealJKO (talk) 16:24, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

That does not give you the right to remove talk page discussions whether you disagree or not. WP:TPO --[[ axg ◉ talk ]] 16:30, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

But you apparently have the right to say anything you like in a discussion about a living person and refute that persons request for it to cease? I think you've just summed up wikimedia perfectly.TheRealJKO (talk) 16:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing that is wrong with discussing a living person, which millions of people do everyday, you simply have put information into the article without a reliable source, which was the main reason for the discussion on the ESC 2013 talk page was started. --[[ axg ◉ talk ]] 16:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok but those aren't defamation or slander. We do routinely have problems with users who are blocked and banned and make another account and we call those sockpuppets. That's not libel, leaving wikipedia warnings are not libel. Have you admitted your real life identity? If you have not and they can not come up with a diff showing that you did then they are guilty of WP:OUTING. That is a serious issue. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:33, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

It states "TheRealJKO account and their previous unregistered IP edits on this page are related to a banned account". I have not made any other edits. I removed an edit with said I was dead and I asked for a debate to be removed that was a slanging match about my professional roles, which was ignored. So whether I "had the right" to so or not, the threats and the above slander are not valid responses. TheRealJKO (talk) 16:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm slightly confused here, as I cannot see anything in the discussion that that would indicate any form of slanging match whatsoever. What I have noticed are editors defending the professional work of John Kennedy O'Conner, by discussing whether you will be providing live commentary via San Marino Television for the Sanmarinese viewers. An IP user (not yourself of course) had added falsified and inaccurate evidence in regards to this, and all the editors who took part in the debate were trying to establish whether or not you would be providing commentary. As neither editor could find any evidence to verify these facts, but they did agree that news reports had confirmed you would be reading out the votes on behalf of San Marino. And so it was agreed that such details regarding commentary should not be included into the Eurovision Song Contest 2013 article, so that we were avoiding the publication of incorrect details - which I sincerely appreciate that any living person would appreciate to have correct information written about them, rather than something which may be incorrect. I can wholeheartedly understand if parts of the debate may have been misinterpreted, but in all admiration to Mr Kenndy O'Conner, the editors involved in the peaceful debate were only doing there best to respect your work and only detail 100% accurate information in terms of your role at the Eurovision Song Contest 2013. Wesley♦^Mouse 16:55, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I have indeffed TheRealJKO for making a legal threat. I don't believe the edit to the Help desk rose to the level of a legal threat ([164]). (Whatever happened to diffs when coming to ANI?) However, this comment at WP:DRN did (" I have said I will pursue this legally if it is not"). There is no outing here. The editor has said who he is. Nor has anyone said he was dead as he claims. The article just used the past tense for his occupation (the birth year with no death date was/is in the article). Finally, his claim that he is being slandered because he is accused of sock puppetry is silly. Arguably, it is a personal attack, but it is hardly defamatory. If he really had a legitimate beef, I might not have acted, but his claims and edits are purely disruptive.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:58, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Death date in article. [165] Nick (talk) 17:05, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

A death date was added and then deleted in an earlier revision also. [166] --[[ axg ◉ talk ]] 17:06, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

This is just getting ridiculous now. Bbb23 has already warned the user that they will revoke talk page access if they continue posting accusations, and yet they still continue to do so. Also one the diffs that Bbb23 has provided in which the user states they sent emails to everyone on the talk page. I have just checked my inbox, and no email from TheRealJKO has been received. Wesley♦^Mouse 17:11, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, HIAB also pointed this out on my talk page. It was the first edit by TheRealJKO back in November 2012. Then there were no edits until May 2013. I didn't notice the date of that first edit. I also looked at the diff and all I saw was the change from "was" to "is". The death date itself, as AxG states, was added by a vandal and then removed by another editor. TheRealJKO completed the clean-up by changing was back to is. It doesn't change my opinion about the block, but I appreciate the clarification.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:13, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The editor also appeared to take objection (here) to being addressed as "dude". (Disliking this form of address is not unusual, for example Salvatore Rivieri disapproved of it.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:14, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

By the way, the "threats" about which this user was complaining were warnings that he could be blocked for disruptive editing, which consisted of deleting a large amount of talk page content that he disliked. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:16, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

The entry of a death date for a living person was a severe violation of policy on living persons but appears to have been done six months ago. Is a late warning appropriate? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:16, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

The user who added the death date has made only two edits to Wikipedia, that one and one other in January 2013, which I don't believe was vandalism. It would be pointless, in my view, to warn the editor of a 6-month-old edit.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:22, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes and I have done so, with extra big red triangle for emphasis. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:22, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

The legal threat should be withdrawn for sure, I just think we have someone who doesn't understand policy here. I think that they aren't being disruptive for the sake of disruption it's because they don't understand the way the encyclopedia is ran. Sock puppetry accusations mean zilch here other then if you get caught you get blocked. I think the death thing is what set this off, it caused a sore tooth and then otherwise regular edits to the encyclopedia are looked at wholly negative. A little WP:AGF in this by all sides would help. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:20, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Another Editor's Possibly Threatening Others over AfD

I have started a few AfD's on some non-notable pages. One of the editors of the page, who is the subject of the article himself took to one of the AfD discussions and issues at minimum a somewhat untoward remark and at most a threat. You can read the discussion here. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Undertow Music, specifically, "your attempted deletion is motivated by personal vendetta. looking forward to seeing your next show at bentley's" (Bentley's is a local establishment in Champaign). I thought admins should be aware that the discussion of that AfD has gotten heated due to the subject of the article being involved. Other related AfD's are Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bob Andrews (artist manager) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Don Gerard. Jamminjimmy (talk) 16:59, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Protection on Mau Mau article (second request)

Hello, back again. I have an IP address who just won't give up. None of his claims ever have sources. We've now got him trying to insert Jomo Kenyatta into the infobox as a leader of the anti-Mau Mau effort, a suggestion so absurd the IP should be embarrassed. The British had him in jail as a leader of Mau Mau!! See the Kapenguria Six ("I would submit that it is the most childishly weak case made against any man in any important trial in the history of the British Empire"), and this jail-time was despite British intelligence making clear Kenyatta was not involved with Mau Mau in any way, a fact advertised in a quote box (see the quote of MI5's Percy Sillitoe). Reverting his source-free raving is now very wearisome, and this IP address does not give up. I've had her/him trying to claim that Black-majority rule was guaranteed in Kenya before the Mau Mau Uprising—you ask for a source, nothing is presented, and the IP has repeatedly tried deleting sourced material that argues the contrary. The IP is such a transparent pro-British Empire POV-pusher it is embarrassing. The article is contentious, it has a litany of vandalism, please can some kind soul help me out? Thanks for your time. LudicrousTripe (talk) 18:04, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

You're looking for Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 01:52, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Clear case of outing

Hello. Sherford (talk · contribs) has been outing two other users at Talk:Tom Waterhouse and article Tom Waterhouse: see the edit history. Their possible COI does not override prohibition on outing. PODULEXOR (talk) 21:05, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

That's not outing if their usernames are clearly related to their actual names. See Gchinap (talk · contribs) and Angustommiepragnell (talk · contribs) (whose usernames obviously are tied to their real-life identities and are the people being outed) and Talk:Tom Waterhouse#Robbie Waterhouse Convictions (where the "outing" ostensibly takes place). If you don't wish your real-life name to be associated with a Wikipedia account, then don't use a handle that directly leads back to it. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 21:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

If you don't wear a mask you cannot expect people not to identify you. The editing of a group of editors is obviously intended to obscure the subject's misdeeds and invites curiosity into the identities of a group of WP:SPI editors with suggestive names. It seems obvious to me that User:Suzanne888 also has a connection to the subject which she has at least had the sense to conceal with a less informative user name, given that her only edits are to remove mention of the subject's legal troubles and then to make arguments that we are somehow obliged by law to not mention them (which I might add is surely untrue in US law). Mangoe (talk) 22:02, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Usernames which are too easily parsed are not much of a means of disquise <g>. Meanwhile, there was some puff in the BLP, as well as UNDUE material about his father which is covered by WP:BLP. Collect (talk) 22:14, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Let us look at what the rules say. WP:COI says "Avoid outing" "policy gainst harassment takes precedence and requires that Wikipedians must take care not to reveal the identity of editors against their wishes" WP:OUTING says "Personal information includes ... work organisation ... " "The fact that a person edits under their own name ... is not an excuse for 'oppositional research'". PODULEXOR (talk) 07:03, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

'Oppositional research' is not what is happening here. When someone edits an article where they have a clear conflict of interest with Wikipedia's policy on a neutral point of view, they will be called out on it. Pointing out that the usernames in question bear a very striking similarity to employees of the article subject is merely pointing out the conflict of interest.

To put it another way, if I said "Podulexor's real name is Engelbert Humperdinck, and he lives at 123 Any Street in Sometown," that would be outing. The Potato Hose ↘ 07:45, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Sheerly disruptive IP

99.129.112.89 (talk · contribs) has developed a reputation recently for abusiveness and troublemaking. It was blocked for 4 days on May 5. Shortly after that blocked ended, and despite pretending to be retired, it acquired a second block, this one for a week. Through its abusiveness, the IP has had its talk page access revoked. However, as one the editors being targeted by the IP, I think that the block should be extended, due to the grossly inappropriate name-calling. Furthermore, as the IP has claimed to have other accounts, including at least one with administrator privileges, I believe that this matter bears further investigating. AutomaticStrikeout  !  C  Sign AAPT  00:12, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

They were already blocked (full disclosure: by me) due to the grossly inappropriate name calling. You can probably dismiss out of hand any claims of having at least one admin account. The IP is currently blocked, and will be blocked again if there is more vandalism when the block expires. This does not appear to be a long term vandal (on the contrary). It's possible s/he will return to constructive editing, as the block message invites them to do. Of course it's possible they won't, but this seems like a judgment better made further down the line after the passage of time and the expiry of the block. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 08:12, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Personal Attacks by user HiLo48 after several requests to stop. Requesting action

I don't have much experience in admin processes, but I've decided to give it a shot because I am having difficulty dealing with User HiLo48. This user seems more interested in attacking and mocking than discussing improvements to the article. See comments here: [167] and here [168] in particular, though I could present other cases. I warned the user - the request and the reply can be seem here. [169] I am suggesting an WP:IBAN to prevent HiLo48 from interacting with me. I fully intend to ignore anything this user writes in the future (except for dealing with any future personal attacks made against me), which will be much easier if they can no longer interact with me. If I don't ignore this user in the future, I'll accept an IBAN against me without argument. Thanks for considering my request. Cheers. Legacypac (talk) 02:49, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I almost sent this same user to ANI after his conduct at the April Fools' Day RFC. He was continuing to be disruptive and combat virtually all oppose votes for his proposal. TCN7JM 02:59, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I tend to agree when Hilo is accused of civility violations but I am not seeing it in this case, a diff would help since maybe I just missed it. But either way I think he is right wrt to WP:BLP and attribution in that first link. Sædon^talk 03:10, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Can this please become some sort of WP:BOOMERANG? User:Legacypac doesn't like what I post. That's because I believe that WP:BLP and "Innocent until proven guilty" actually mean something. Almost every time I have interacted with him it's been to point out that his attitude to those two principles is simply wrong. He pretty much ignores them. And if anyone has been abusive, and threatening, and destructive to the article, it's him. HiLo48 (talk) 03:17, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure "Innocent until proven guilty" is the best argument you could be making. It's certainly something I believe in but it's less relevant than, at least according to what I've read, the argument that we cannot possibly *know* what happened because it's based on eyewitness accounts (viz. the victim). This isn't like science when you can say point to a scientific consensus and thus feel comfortable in calling evolution a fact - this is unverifiable by any of us and possibly anyone else. But I don't think it's a boomerang so much as a misunderstanding .Sædon^talk 03:25, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Wait, isn't "innocent until proven guilty" a guideline on Wikipedia? I remember reading about it on a policy or guideline page a few weeks ago. YuMaNuMa ^Contrib 03:31, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

If User:Legacypac misunderstands WP:BLP, it's not my fault. Several of us have been persistently correcting his breaches of that policy, and copping abuse and rather silly responses in return. HiLo48 (talk) 03:32, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• I see a lot of back-and-forth, unhelpful bickering which needs to stop from all sides in all of these disputes, but I don't see any name-calling or insults or other forms of personal attacks. Doesn't mean that anyone is in the right here. In fact, I see that no one is behaving in a way that they should. No one wins. You should all be happy with that. --Jayron32 03:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• HiLo has an established record and this report, unfortunately, comes as no surprise. The only surprise is that it comes from Legacypac, who is not a very courteous editor, to put it mildly. In other words, pot and kettle. Drmies (talk) 03:29, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I would appreciate it if you paid a little attention to "Innocent until proven guilty" too. That post says "I don't like HiLo, and I assume he is in the wrong." Not nice, nor helpful. HiLo48 (talk) 03:36, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Note that I didn't say anything about your edits, in this case or elsewhere, and don't see any reason yet for any kind of action toward you. Drmies (talk) 04:39, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

While discussing HiLo48's contributions on Talk:2013 Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio, it would be entirely remiss to not also look at the way Legacypac has routinely violated WP:BLP policy there. This sort of thing [170] seems to be the norm for Legacypac, who utterly refuses to even pretend to abide by 'innocent until proven guilty' norms, and instead proclaims the suspect's guilt at every opportunity - I'll not bother with more diffs, the talk page is littered with Legacypac's WP:BLP violations. Note too that Legacypac's response to having the obligations of WP:BLP policy pointed out is to accuse those referring to at as making 'personal attacks': See the posts at Talk:2013 Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio#Daughter's age and Unborn Victims following the initial one I link (from 06:13, 11 May 2013). I can see very little reason why someone who shows such contempt for core Wikipedia policy should be permitted to edit any BLP-related article at all, and am seriously considering proposing that Legacypac be topic-banned accordingly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:32, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok, take a look at AndytheGrump's and HiLo48's posts on this sectionstarting with Support for this is irrelevant before putting too much stock in their assessment of my alleged incorrect understanding of BLP policy and their alleged expertise in it. Legacypac (talk) 05:07, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I am not going to post in this discussion any more unless it becomes absolutely necessary. Wikipedia's discipline processes are a disaster, allowing anyone with a beef to write anything they like about an accused, with no chance that that person can defend themselves effectively. We already have User:Drmies and User:Saedon dragging up alleged (and obviously completely irrelevant even if they did happen to be true) sins of mine from the past. Never a helpful approach. So, I retire for now. HiLo48 (talk) 03:42, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

You're not going to retire. Stop acting like a diva. You may choose to ignore your past (and how others perceive you), but retiring "for now"? Come on. Doc talk 04:00, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Uhh, Given the context, I think by retiring he means he's going to stop posting in this discussion for now. YuMaNuMa ^Contrib 04:09, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Doc9871 has misread HiLo48's statement. Johnuniq (talk) 04:13, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I did not misread the first post on HILo's user page. YMMV... Doc talk 04:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

That was added a month and a half ago so I don't see how it proves that mentioning retiring in this instance meant leaving Wikipedia.--174.95.111.89 (talk) 04:44, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Look: I understand that "retiring" means different things in our common language that separates us. "Pissed" means "drunk" everywhere in the English-speaking world except America, where it means "angry". I apologize for my mistake. A month and a half is not exactly "ancient history". I know HiLo better than I do you, so we'll just continue on with the premise that I simply misread what he said. Doc talk 04:54, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• And HiLo completely misread what I wrote, but that's by-the-by. Drmies (talk) 04:57, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• No personal attack None of the supplied diffs shows anything like a PA, but one of them points to Daughter's age and Unborn Victims where Legacypac states "HiLo48 kindly stop with the personal attacks". Yet in that section all we see is that Legacypac is misguided about how an article on a crime should be written, and declines all advice offered. It is almost certain that a known person will be found guilty of severe crimes, yet articles still need to be written in the correct manner, and Wikipedia's voice should not be used to say things like "X imprisoned Y" until that is a finding in a court. If the same lack of clue is evident in other BLPs, AndyTheGrump's suggestion that Legacypac should be restricted with a topic ban is correct. Johnuniq (talk) 04:13, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  • As far as I'm concerned, Legacypac is a serious disruptor in BLP cases with only a limited grasp of what Wikipedia is supposed to be. This became clear to me on the talk page of the Boston Marathon bombing article, where they were constantly present, didn't give a **** about the BLP (and I doubt they had even read it at the time), and were among those who are the Wikipedia equivalent of rubberneckers and want to stick every single thing in an article, without consideration for relevance or BLP applicability. Moreover, they were routinely badgering their opponents (not just me) and gave evidence of some serious battleground mentality, which is why I've been avoiding them. So if HiLo defends the BLP guidelines or a BLP in heated language toward this editor, I understand, and Legacypac running to ANI is par for the course. Drmies (talk) 04:47, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• From what I can see, no personal attack was made; and HiLo48 is quite right about the presumption innocence until proven guilty. Extra care should be exercised when editing articles on legal cases that are currently still being disputed in court. Incorrect or bias information here can have significant real world effects, which can result in mistrials in court, depending on the severity of the bias. YuMaNuMa ^Contrib 04:43, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• For what it's worth, I think Legacypac's attitude towards BLP absolutely needs to be taken into account when considering HiLo48's alleged personal attacks. (They've both been a bit uncivil, but "personal attack" is a stretch.) HiLo48's interactions with Legacypac on the talk page in question have, in large part, been to address BLP violations and to attempt to help Legacypac understand BLP; it's easy to see how said violations and continued misunderstanding of BLP could make it difficult to interact with Legacypac while maintaining complete civility. (That's not to excuse incivility, but I'd rather see slightly uncivil behavior than see BLP issues go ignored.)

Even after the lengthy BLP discussion at Talk:2013 Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio#BLP disaster again, Legacypac continues to misunderstand BLP ([171] [172] [173] for example, and that's just since the long talk page discussion.) Frankly, I don't blame HiLo48 for being a bit uncivil when another editor continues to create BLP issues even after repeated discussion. Both editors could stand to be a bit more civil, but Legacypac's misunderstanding of BLP is greatly contributing to incivility towards himself/herself. (Edit: To clarify, I refer to incivility in the mildest of terms; nothing that rises to the level of needing to be on AN/I itself. But BLP contributing to it is what concerns me.) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 05:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I did not start this thread to debate who understands BLP better. I started it because I got tired of having uncivil things said about me and an WP:IBAN seems to me an appropriate way to help the other editor away from focusing on criticizing me and my understanding of policy and back to improving articles. At the beginning I also said I will be essentially self imposing an IBAN vs them to keep things on track. If Admin's determine that an IBAN is not appropriate - no problem. I'm a big boy and I'll deal with the situation in other ways to avoid further conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legacypac (talk • contribs)

Well, we need to discuss the entirety of the situation...and what I see as repeated failure to understand BLP certainly seems to be a factor here. The long "BLP disaster" thread and related discussions would not have led to this AN/I thread if that was not the case. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 05:56, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Even in this discussion HiLo48 is all over attacking me and my understanding of policy instead of addressing the validity of an IBAN. I do find it ironic that in allegedly defending BLP an editor proceeds to make bold negative assertions about another editor (a real living person just trying to contribute to WP). If there is a specific concern about a specific edit concerning a BLP let's talk about that in the appropriate talk page. Consider this section starting with Support for this is irrelevant before judging who may grasp BLP correctly - a whole line up of editors are saying that AndytheGrump and HiLo48 are incorrectly interpreting BLP and this unusual interpretation of BLP applied to other parts of the article is the source of some of my comments in other sections. Legacypac (talk) 05:32, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

"If I don't ignore this user in the future, I'll accept an IBAN against me without argument." Are you asking for a temporary one-way IBAN in the meantime? They don't generally get approved. An IBAN means you both cease and desist the bickering and mentioning each other equally, period. Doc talk 07:50, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Persistant copyvios by Bilaljshahid

An anonymous IP added the text:

• "makes sense for a country with limited nuclear resources and limited capability to fight a conventional war against a larger adversary not to renounce the option to use nuclear weapons first." to the Pakistan and weapons of mass destruction.

This text is clearly a WP:COPYVIO of:

• "makes sense for a country with limited nuclear resources and limited capability to fight a conventional war against a larger adversary not to renounce the option to use nuclear weapons first."

I removed the text with the explanation that it was a copyvio, but Bilaljshahid (talk · contribs) (who presumably is the user behind the IP) returned shortly thereafter and has been persistently restoring the content. By blindly reverting, the user is also changing the text of an unrelated quotation in the article, making it disagree with the linked source. I've tried to explain to the user why this content can't remain ([174] [175]) but the user insists that it isn't a copyvio. Perhaps some admin can try to emphasize to Bilaljshahid why this content can't remain in the article (and why quotations must faithfully represent what the source actually said)? TDL (talk) 04:41, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm an English teacher by day; I'm off the clock and Jimbo is not paying me nearly enough to explain at length. I left them a brief note after reverting; perhaps you all can explain further. Remember, admins aren't supposed to know anything about content. Drmies (talk) 04:55, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• First it is claimed that the edit is copyrighted material and then you said "Direct quotes need to properly attributed, and changing direct quotes is unacceptable." The edit is a one sentence, exact quote and is linked directly to the source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bilaljshahid (talk • contribs)

• I vetted the source for the Feroz Khan quotation that Bilaljshahid is editing. It was correct before the edit; the changes altered the text so it no longer agreed with the source. —C.Fred (talk) 05:11, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• As for the text added to the article, it borrowed 31 words verbatim from a Daily Times news story without indicating the material as a direct quotation. —C.Fred (talk) 05:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

To be fair, I assume that the changes to the Feroz Khan quotation are just a result of Bilaljshahid getting carried away with mashing the "undo" button. When I first reverted the addition of the plagiarised text, I simultaneously synced the quote with the source. Since then, Bilaljshahid has just been undoing that edit, so they might not be intending to make that change.

Bilaljshahid, I'm willing to try to explain the issues to you on the talk page, and help you restructure the sentence so that it gives proper attribution to the source, but you need to promise to stop reverting and start listening. Plagiarism is a very serious problem, so first and foremost it needs to be removed from the encyclopedia, then we can discuss what the problem is and how to fix it. TDL (talk) 05:46, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• The source of the quote is the article published on dailytimes.com.pk by the author. There are no changes made to the quote. The author is atributed in the text added to the wiki and the article on dailytimes.com.pk is listed as a ref.
• This is the edit: "Taking part in debating the doctrine, Pakistani political scientist, <<author-name>> countered that the first use option <<31 word direct quote from the article>>." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bilaljshahid (talk • contribs) 06:21, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's precisely the problem Bilaljshahid. There are two separate issues with your edit that you are mixing up:

• 1) If you don't use quotation marks to indicate that you've copied someone else's work word-for-word, then your aren't giving proper attribution to the original source. You either need to write it in your own words (ie paraphrase what the source says), or put any words that you've copy-and-pasted into quotations. If you don't use quotation marks, then you are claiming the work as your own, which is a copyvio.
• 2) In your reverts, you kept changing the text of the quote attributed to Feroz Khan. The source claims that he said one thing, but you changed it to claim that he said something else. As per WP:MOSQUOTE: "The wording of the quoted text should be faithfully reproduced." You can't just change the text of a quote if the person never actually said the words that you are attempting to put in their mouth. TDL (talk) 07:13, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

‎User:Matthewisaboss

Persistent (four times) recreation of Playtime Is Over (mixtape)‎ which was AfDed as redirect. The talk page discussion only became possible when I protected the redirect and did not bring anything. When the protection expired, the user continued recreating. We probably need salting and/or some personal measures.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC)