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Proposal for interaction ban with User:Winkelvi

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User says he would stop hounding me, then starts that up again. See [1] I made it clear I didnt want to be gossiped about, but he did just that at [2]. I would also like to link y'all to this previous discussion (Thank you so much Calidum for the link) [3]. This is pretty much all anybody would need for "evidence". Winkelvi is basically a hateful hound, and he will just choose one editor and hound him/her to the level that he/she retires. See User:Lips Are Movin for a previous such instance. His hounding goes from making false sockpuppeting accusations to clogging up my talk page with anything he wishes. By the way, none of those files were deleted. He tries to get allies against me, first it was Chasewc91 and now its Chesnaught555. Notice how he took this GA review just to fail it? He didnt even let it be on hold for 7 days. He also continually makes WP:POLEMIC writings about me on his user page, and also supporting any/other deletion (or otherwise) discussion against my standing. He gossips about me on other users' talk pages. And makes a poor impression of mine to anyone I try to engage with. I am now asking for administrator intervention. Note that he is also trying to WP:DOX my country here. Please tell me he doesnt get to file bogus SPIs against me after this IBAN. Cause' it reflects badly on me (and FAKE if I may add).--MaranoFan (talk) 13:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Respectfully, you'll need to provide more than a bare accusation if you want anything done. Diffs? History? Anything? -Starke Hathaway (talk) 13:12, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

You can have a mutually-enforced interaction ban or a community-enforced one? Which one are you running for? --QEDK (T ☕ C) 13:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

A community-enforced one.--MaranoFan (talk) 13:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

There was a previous discussion about an interaction ban with a lot of consensus, can someone give a link to that?--MaranoFan (talk) 13:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Comment First of all, I've never said I would stop hounding him or anyone; second, I've never hounded him; third, my comments to Calvin999 were in reference to a couple of things: MF canvassing an editor to do a GA review for him and a GA review then starting up just an hour or so after the editor doing the review was canvassed. It seems to be a vio of policy to canvass in such a manner to begin with, since the editor being canvassed is friendly toward MF and there could be favoritism clouding the GA process in this case. Further, the other issue is that there are a lot of GA noms that just sit for a considerable period of time, untouched and unnoticed, because those nominating articles for GA don't ask favors from their Wiki-friends to do a GA review for them. MF has done this before: canvassing editors he is friendly with to perform a GA review for him. This seems to me an egregious abuse of process on the part of anyone, not just MF, and that was what my comment to Calvin was about. And speaking of policy violations on the part of MF, let me include this conversation that not only mentions a policy vio by MF occurring just moments ago, but also shows an interesting attitude from MF toward an admin he didn't think was an admin. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 13:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Is this a joke? I know nothing about any of the editors I ask to do reviews.--MaranoFan (talk) 13:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Calvin accepted stuff like [4] and [5] because he likes those editors, but when I do it it is a problem?--MaranoFan (talk) 13:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Canvassing for this AN/I here, here, here, here. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 13:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

My TP also, Winkelvi. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

NONE of these are actually canvassing, I encourage the editors to actually open and view these links, they are being misrepresented.--MaranoFan (talk) 14:06, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Go and actually read WP:Canvassing loll, Calidum is an editor who has dealt with you before. Hence I summon him.--MaranoFan (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Another policy vio just committed: editing my comments in this ANI here. Not a huge deal, but I think it demonstrates where the issues truly lie (or, with whom). -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Another comment and observation: Does MF really want an IBAN? This comment on my talk page and this comment on Chesnaught555's talk page doesn't cause me to think so. The continued responses to me in this filing fall into that, as well. Then there's this comment in the subsection below ("No opposition votes yet, yay!"). It has since been removed by MF. What I am seeing (especially with the "Yay!" comment), is a desire to WP:WIN. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Obviously everyone says "yay" when they're on their way of getting freedom from a hound.--MaranoFan (talk) 15:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Clearly you have some concerns about MaranoFan's conduct - and how many edits have you made, just in the last 3 hours, dealing with them? My question is this - why would you want to continue wasting your time with them? They want to disengage - if you agree as well, then why can't we do a voluntary iban here? Ignoring their conduct (which I have not reviewed)... honestly, you do seem to be pretty relentless in pointing out problems with their edits. Why bother? UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

The issue is not so much a desire for an IBAN (which I don't have), the issue is that MF continually brings this kind of stuff up when it's largely his own doing. His harassment of me at my userspace and filings of bogus reports has been going on for over a year. There have been several discussions regarding his behavior previously. His usual response? When things get too hot for him and it's proven he's the cause of the issues he blames on others, he hightails it for the weeds with a script enforced Wiki-break. Admins have warned and warned him. A few examples of past discussions and enforcements (I encourage you and anyone reading this to look at them): [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

The issue, Winkelvi, is not whether you desire an IBAN, but why you're opposing one. MF has requested such a ban, which would immediately solve all the problems you mention, and yet you oppose it. To my eyes, this suggests that your main objective is simply to deny MF what they have requested, to be at the center of drama for whatever reason, or some combination of both. Agree to a voluntary IBAN and move on. If MF then violates the ban that they requested, you have a legitimate complaint. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Regardless of what the issue is (and it's really about MF's behavior and continued attempts to interact with me at another editor's talk page as well as my own since this was filed), I have a right to oppose an IBAN proposal that includes me. That in mind, how can me opposing it be an issue? Further, this comment from you, "to be at the center of drama for whatever reason" makes no sense, since this filing not only involves me, but the filer put my name in the topic header. Regardless, the center of "the drama" is the filer, plain and simple, as I have pointed out with the numerous diffs provided. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:09, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

No. That's precisely what this is not about. MaranoFan has indicated that they believe you are hounding them, and that they would like to not interact with you anymore. Your response, here, is that you are not hounding them, and by the way here are multiple diffs across multiple edits showing a variety of ways in which MaranoFan has violated policies. Do you understand that THAT behavior is what is at issue here? You're playing Gotcha with every edit they make, whether it's warranted or not. You've made your point about their behavior - and the fact that it's been posted here means that multiple admins will keep an eye on it. I'm asking that you drop the stick and leave it be. MaranoFan has asked here for an interaction ban with you, and you've done nothing but justify such a ban. So explain to us, please, what benefit to the project would we see from you continuing to interact with an editor who doesn't want to interact with you? UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 17:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

You just told me I should stop giving evidence, then you told me I should drop the stick, and now you're asking me to give you more evidence and not drop the stick? What's more, it's obvious you haven't looked at any of the evidence presented by anyone here, if you had, you would see that I'm not the one who's interacting with this individual. Rather, it's the individual filing the report who's interacting with me. I'm fine with helpful comments from editors, but your comments here are confusing and contradict each other, and seem wholly unhelpful. Further, how helpful is it for you to comment and make demands if you have not truly looked into any of the links provided and given them any reasonable thought? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I believe you missed my point. Let's assume that you've proven your point that MaranoFan is being disruptive. I don't concede that, but let's interpret the facts in the manner most favorable to you. So you've made your point - MaranoFan is being disruptive. Fine. Admins are now aware that they are being disruptive. So why would you want to continue interacting with MaranoFan? You want to show that they are violating policy? Mission accomplished. What now? You're posting link after link about MaranoFan, and you've directly responded to their comments here repeatedly, so yes you are continuing to interact. I'm saying that there is no further purpose served by that interaction. So if this person is so disruptive and poisonous, why would you not want them banned from posting to or about you? You would be banned from posting to or about them, of course, but who cares? If you're not interacting with them, as you claim, then what difference would an interaction ban make? "Yes, I agree not to do the thing I'm not doing" is no sanction. Would it make things easier if MaranoFan agreed to the ban first? UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 18:23, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

What would help is if MF would leave me alone. Stay out of my userspace (which he's been warned about continually for over a year), stop filing ridiculous reports against me (which he's also been warned about continuously for a year). He claims hounding but has no proof of it (because I'm not hounding him). If he wants to be left alone, then he can show good faith and do the same. I will not agree to an interaction ban because I have done nothing that warrants it nor the black mark it brings. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

In other words, you are indeed requesting an IBAN. You do seem to have a knack for this, as evidenced with my interactions with you. If MF is requesting a IBAN, then I don't get the big deal to agree to it. Your posts above, at least to me, do show a sort of hounding and it would do you well to stay away from MF and let others deal with the edits in question. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Official discussion

• Support - I want to finally start doing good work for Wikipedia, uninterrupted.--MaranoFan (talk) 13:49, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Looks to me like MF isn't really after an IBAN after all. This message directed to WV on my talk page is on a par with harassment. If she has an unshakable and obsessive want for an IBAN so much, she should just stay away from him... --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

That comment was directed at Ches, as he archived the above thread which could've taken a negative turn. I still want an IBAN with WV. MaranoFan (talk) 14:36, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, MaranoFan. It was not appreciated. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 15:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Okay, but I fail to see how that dif is "harassment" or a rationale against an iban, regardless of who it was made to. I don't follow your argument at all. Sergecross73 msg me 19:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Sergecross73, my argument is that the two editors in question should not interact further (despite MF's posts on WV's talk page after the AN/I filing...) without any formal interaction ban placed between them. Neither party needs this "black mark" sanction placed on them. Is it too much to ask? --Ches (talk) (contribs) 19:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

That's fair, I guess I was just thrown off by your "harassment" remark. That seems to be...a bit of a misrepresentation or misinterpretation of the dif. But if you feel that these two are capable of discussion that won't bring continued disruption to the project, so be it, I guess. I just don't share that optimism, considering how long this probablem has been occurring. Sergecross73 msg me 19:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I had asked MF to stay off my talk page, Serge, and yet the posts continued. If anything, this IBAN would be pointless on the basis that I know Winkelvi already has ceased communication with MaranoFan, and yet Marano continues to interact. In addition to this, no administrator could possibly argue that the community is 100% in favour of it. If I were an uninvolved admin, I would close this as no consensus, and I am certain that this will be the outcome. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Well, its probably good you're in no position to close this discussion then, because you'd be raked over the coals for closing this discussion now as no consensus, considering its only been running about a day, and the last comment was left like 5 minutes ago, so discussion in clearly still active and consensus is still forming. Not to mention it currently leaning towards "support". (But the fact that you don't see that is the very reason why INVOLVED exists, so that's good at least.) Sergecross73 msg me 17:08, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

That's exactly why I am not an admin, Sergecross73! The Support !votes only slightly outnumber the Oppose ones, so in all honesty I still do not see a consensus. I can see either that happening, or a landslide Support majority later... --Ches (talk) (contribs) 17:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Not for nothing, but three admins have commented here (Only, Ultra and Serge) and they've all supported the proposed interaction ban. Calidum ¤ 02:26, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support - If MaranoFan wants Winkelvi to back off then he should back off. Also, MF should work harder at avoiding WV whenever possible. WV needs to learn to stop lecturing other editors and focus more on making improvements to Wikipedia. I fully support the IBAN. These comments are based upon interaction with WV. Please note how WV responds to my good faith comments here. It will tell you everything that you need to know about this IBAN request.--ML (talk) 15:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose: Insufficient evidence presented to merit an IBAN. Insufficient evidence that lesser remedies (e.g., mutual avoidance) have been tried and failed. I believe indef-length IBANs should be avoided unless that element of the IBAN is independently justified, and I'm not seeing any such justification. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 17:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

@Mendaliv: Is this enough for "evidence"? The only reason anyone opposed was because I was on a script-enforced wikibreak.--MaranoFan (talk) 18:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Even assuming I could support an IBAN on the basis of that thread, I will not support one of indef length without further justification. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support. The previous request, which was archived without a proper closure, is viewable here. As the filer of that request, I think the evidence there was quite compelling. Though I haven't followed the situation of late, I don't think much has changed between MF and WV since then given the tenor of comments such as "same shit, different day" [13], this diatribe [14] (the whole thread there is truly illuminating), or this pointy revert [15]. Calidum ¤ 17:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

For clarity's sake, the Feudin' thread below directly relates to this one, as does User_talk:Floquenbeam#Please Calidum ¤ 21:35, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support - I was requested to comment here, which makes sense, as I tried to mediate some disputes between the two of them in the past I believe. Even before that, I saw this pop up on my watchlist was likely going to give my two cents. Anyways, I think an iban would help make both of their efforts more constructive, so they can focus on content and not each other. They're arguments have been going on for a long time, and I think everyone would be better off if they'd just go work on the opposite ends of pop music work on content separately. Sergecross73 msg me 18:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Calling a editor out on their faults and then observing the chastened editor develop ANI-flu is not harassment. I would suggest that if Winkelvi sees faults with MaranoFan's editing, that they bring it to a neutral admin to help correct the issue. MaranoFan should go back and read WP:CANVAS and WP:ADMINSHOP closer as their claims of not canvassing/adminshopping falls flat on it's face. MaranoFan should observe other well established policies (like WP:TPO which prohibits deleting other users talk page commentary barring extraordinary situations) lest they end up on the wrong side of sanctions. This iBan request reads more like MaranoFan trying to neutralize a significant and frequently correct critic of their work, which iBans are not to be used for. Hasteur (talk) 19:00, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

@Hasteur: But it is not Canvassing or adminshopping, these are people who were involved at [16] which was precisely about the same thing as this, only failed because I was inactive.--MaranoFan (talk) 19:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

If you cannot see that the items that WV presented are Canvassing/AdminShopping I call into question your competence because the notices are nowhere near neutral in addition to your conduct faults indicates that your privileges need to be restricted, not WV. I again reiterate my advice to both of you. Hasteur (talk) 00:39, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose, possible boomerang based solely on the diffs provided here. MaranoFan has not demonstrated any hounding, stalking, or other inability to edit constructively with WV. WV, however, has provided a good amount of evidence against MaranoFan showing a history of disruption. Given that WV seems disinclined to agree to an iban, it's up to the filer to demonstrate the need for one. I see no such demonstration. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:30, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

But there can't be a boomerang, as I am asking for a two-sided IBAN. There will either be an IBAN or there won't be one. Please get your facts straight.--MaranoFan (talk) 19:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Blocks, tbans, and one-way ibans are always options. Your behavior here and in the diffs is atrocious thus far... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

MaranoFan, I've been here for more than 2 years and have participated in plenty of ANI reports since last year. I know well enough that what EvergreenFir is said is correct. Any kind of report will involve scrutiny of editors involved, whether it be the filer or not. WP:BOOMERANG applies to any kind of situation, regardless it be a preposition or not. I recommend that you get your facts straight. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 01:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support Somewhat based on my own dealings with WV, if MF is requesting an IBAN, then that should be accepted. WV needs to learn how to lay off and know when to call it quits and if staying away from MF will do Wiki good, then it should pass. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support, per both editors' comments in this thread. MaranoFan asked for the ban but then keeps commenting on Winkelvi, while Winkelvi refuses to stop commenting on MaranoFan. It's obvious that neither one is going to leave the other alone. So let's have an interaction ban, and then some blocks when the ban is violated. Nothing here is going to improve the project one bit - so we need to put a stop to it. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 19:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support - Any editor should be able to get an IBAN with any other editor if they feel their interactions are not productive. I don't believe that Winkelvi is the only editor in the project who (1) is capable of dealing with whatever problems MaranoFan presents, and (2) would be willing to do so. Therefore there is no need for continued contact between these two parties. It should go without saying that we'll have a problem if MF requests an IBAN with any editor who opposes them; for now, I see this as an avoidable personality conflict. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

@Mandruss: Ibans burden both parties though. Do you think there's enough evidence here to support claims that WV is somehow harassing or unable to constructively edit with MF? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I disagree that an IBAN would necessarily burden Winkelvi. If the concept of a "no-fault divorce" doesn't exist here, it should in my view. If it's not necessary to establish fault, the presence or absence of evidence is irrelevant. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

By the way, I would find it problematic if a Winkelvi->MaranoFan IBAN were established and then Chesnaught555 started (continued?) to actively oppose MF. WV and Ches are so closely allied that they are effectively almost one and the same person, and Ches would simply become a proxy for Winkelvi in disputes with MF. I'm not advocating a second IBAN at this point, but I hope Ches would recognize the problem and also avoid MF. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Mandruss, of course sir. I asked MF to stay off my talk page and I hope they follow that advice - I also don't wish for any further interaction with them. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 20:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

No problem, Mandruss. I do hope you understand why I am not in favour of any formal sanctions. Simply informally staying away from MF may be the best way forward, and I do not see any consensus on this !vote. I am certain that Winkelvi will agree on this one considering he is not in favour of the IBAN, either. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 20:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support - Each of these two editors seem to be bringing out the worst in the other, and apparently this has been going on in some form for at least a year. Ultraexactzz and Mandruss bring a lot of clarity to the situation. We don't need a mountain of evidence, nor do we need to wait for a total blowup before we simply tell these editors to stay away from each other, stop worrying about each others edits, and stop posting innuendo on third party editor's talk pages.- MrX 20:50, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support if this eliminates the near constant sniping and back and forth bickering between the two users. They cannot keep apart from each other even when they say they want nothing to do with each other. They clearly can't do so the community must force them to avoid each other. only (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't understand this request, which was brought to my attention on my talk page. Based on the very first post by MF requesting this IBAN, these two editors have not been interacting. WV has mentioned this person to other editors. Simply not a reasonable request. I get mentioned now and then by other editors. That's how the bisquit crumbles. Nor do I understand the harm done. Mind you am not in the WV fan club, and I assume that's why I was approached, but this discussion does not add to the totality of man's knowledge in any way. Coretheapple (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC) Changing to support based on this discussion, which clarified the need for this IBAN. Coretheapple (talk) 14:59, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Interesting turn of events. Especially since the original premise for your "Oppose" !vote was "Based on the very first post by MF requesting this IBAN, these two editors have not been interacting." - and that premise/observation remains the same (as far as I'm aware and based on my own continued non-interaction with MF). I think it's not unreasonable to ask you to explain why you have changed this out of the blue, Coretheapple. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:38, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

I can't answer for Core, but personally, its the way you badger and bicker with anyone who disagrees with you in these discussions with these snippy responses, coupled with the fact that these issues with Marano have been spanning months (years?) now. I know you probably feel you're just "defending yourself" or something, but constant aggressive responses doesn't exactly send the "I'm not the type of person to be hounding someone" message you're going for here, nor does it instill confidence about this issue just going away on its own without any action taken. You're not exactly portraying yourself in the best light in these responses (and similar bickering/badgering from Calvin and Ches probably aren't helping either, they just make this all look like an even bigger mess.) Sergecross73 msg me 18:38, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Yep, that puts it well. My sentiments entirely. Coretheapple (talk) 00:29, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Your explanation and Core's agreement with same makes no sense in that (1) It has nothing to do with the IBan proposal; (3) When Core changed her !Vote, I hadn't responded to anyone in this thread for a considerable amount of time; (3) The reasoning you gave seems to be based on a punitive mindset. In other words, "If you respond to comments and defend yourself we will punish you for doing so". None of this has anything to do with interaction between MF and myself (which there hasn't been for a week now), doesn't establish a need for an IBan (no one, including the filer, has been able to provide any evidence to support that need) and certainly doesn't fit the picture of action taken to prevent disruption (prevention, not punishment). -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:33, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Hmmm, based on your response, you're not following what I'm saying at all. I'm not criticizing the fact that you're responding/defending yourself, its the way you're going about doing it. Think of it this way. Have you ever witnessed this exchange: A person says something with their voice raised. Another person, in response, says "Please don't raise your voice, I don't like it when you're angry." Then, the first person responds by screaming "I'm not angry! You'll know when I'm angry!". Generally, you'll find the second person unconvinced, because, you know, screaming is a common sign of being angry. Bringing this back to you, you're essentially defending the accusation that you're hounding this editor, by going about hounding anyone who disagrees with you. It makes your argument...hard to believe. You've got an explanation for every example people provide you, but the fact that we keep having these discussions, makes your dismissals hard to buy into. Sergecross73 msg me 19:40, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I do now see your point, Sergecross73. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 04:22, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support Just by looking at the back and forth between these two in this thread, it seems obvious they can't collaborate constructively together. An interaction ban is needed to separate these two, and it would be a benefit to both editors and the project.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 22:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Support UltraExactZZ, Mandruss and MrX have analyzed the situation accurately. I am in full agreement with their assessments. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose I do see a hounding issue that needs to be addressed, as per WV's message on Calvin999's talk page. However, what I do is MaranoFan's mishandling of the issue. Her/his (I don't remember the gender) message on WV's talk page and what seems to be an edit on WV's user page is enough provoke anyone. I don't see how an IBAN would help anyone, since interaction is very small if at all. As much as I don't like WV, I just don't see how the IBAN is any way going to resolve the issue. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 01:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Please note that this will be my last time posting in this thread I don't see how an IBAN would help anyone But it will help both parties, solving the issue you describe above. This two-sided iban will also prevent me from editing his userspace. As anyone who will read his posts conclude, "WV is asking for an IBAN without knowing he wants one".--MaranoFan (talk) 06:50, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Your edit as of 09:41, 30 March 2016 proved this to be either a lie or a broken promise and therefore whatever credibility you have left is in the sewer along with other refuse. Hasteur (talk) 12:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose As others have already pointed out, my actions do not merit an IBan. Whether MF's actions do, I'll leave up to others to decide. I will say this about MF running here for his allegations that I am hounding him: He needs to toughen up and stop coming to administrators and other editors with complaints about those he feels have wronged, bullied, harassed, and hounded him. Along the same lines - as others have also pointed out to him - he needs to get a grip on what hounding truly is and isn't. Sans that understanding, it's no surprise to me that he hasn't been able to provide one shred of evidence that I have been hounding him.

I completely object to the proposition that I would have to wear an IBan stigma badge when it's unnecessary for me and when I have done nothing that warrants such a stigma and black mark on my editing career in Wikipedia. And, frankly, I have to wonder MF understands what an IBan will really mean for him going forward.

Something else that needs to be pointed out: one of the big differences between MF and I as far as this report: he has felt the need to go to numerous editors to get support for his IBan "proposal", in fact he has gone to those he perceives to be my Wikipedia enemies and/or detractors. If that doesn't tell anyone reading this something important about MFs purpose in this report as well as his attitude toward me, I don't know what will. On the flip side, who have I gone to in order to gain support? No one at all. Why? Because (1) It's against policy (canvassing), and (2) I haven't done anything that warrants an IBan, therefore, I don't feel a need to defend myself or ask others to stand up for me.

I do need to address those who say that there is continued "sniping" or disruptive/unconstructive behavior between the two of us. Let me point out that a little over a month ago, I tried very, very hard to make a good faith gesture toward MF and offer an olive branch in the way of reviewing an article he nom'd for GA. Everything I did and said from the first review comments to the ultimate fail and final comments (all to be seen here) were fair and extremely civil toward MF. How did he respond? Continuing to chide and poke and behave rudely toward me (example here: [17]). One thing that whole experience shows: I have no problem with or inability in treating MF with civility and fairness. The only one who does have difficulty in this area is the person who filed the report. And, as another already stated, pointing out MFs bad fruit and policy vios and bad behavior is not wrong, nor is it the problem here. The person producing bad fruit and committing policy vios and bad behavior who complains about someone pointing out these issues and running to AN/I when it happens, is.

There's really not much more for me to say, except to address Sir Joseph who tried to put words in my mouth when he said, "In other words, you are indeed requesting an IBAN." No, I didn't say that at all SJ. How you got that impression is beyond my comprehension. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support per the previous proposal a year ago by Calidum, which had a supermajority of Support, but was archived without close. If this problem has still persisted one year later, it's time for the IBan to happen. After enaction, the IBan can be re-assessed a year from now and if both parties are agreeable, it can be removed. Softlavender (talk) 02:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - MaranoFan has been bringing all of this on himself for months. He is rude, non-compliant, not willing to listen, doesn't understand the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia, canvasses for reviews on a weekly basis and has no respect for anyone. He is cold and calculating. MF requesting an IBAN against the very placid, calm and peaceful editor that is Winkelvi is nothing more than a childish, immature and non-starter attempt at trying to garner some attention, which MF thrives on. If anything, MF should be banned from contacting Winkelvi, not the other way around. MF should be blocked from editing from his disgusting and highly provocative behaviour on WP over the past couple of weeks. I'm more than happy to provide a multitude of diffs is required.  — Calvin999 09:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Pot meet kettle, you are both black.--MaranoFan (talk) 09:41, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Racist.  — Calvin999 10:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Calvin999 Were you joking? WP:KETTLE's existence is ample testimony to this metaphor being widely understood on English Wikipedia, and if you seriously think your being called "black" in this case was about race, then you should be more careful about responding before clicking on the links. In my experiences, calling you a kettle when you call someone else "rude, non-compliant, unwilling to listen and failing to understand the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia" is a perfectly reasonable argument. (I haven't looked at the rest of the content here, so I'm not sure if you were technically correct; I only posted here because when my browser refreshed after I posted a comment in another thread it jumped around a bit, and my cursor wound up hovering over the word "racist", which peaked my interest.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:21, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Since Calvin999 hasn't provided even a single diff, I feel compelled to state that "rude, non-compliant, not willing to listen, doesn't understand the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia, canvasses ... and has no respect for anyone" describe Calvin999, as evidenced by the mass of notable Adele song articles he AfDed after MaranoFan worked on them, and by these recent ANIs: [18], [19], [20], [21], [22]. And calling Winkelvi a "very placid, calm and peaceful editor" is ludicrous to anyone who has actually interacted with him or looked at his block log or seen his editing style or his bloodhound-like stalking of editors he dislikes or has issues with. Softlavender (talk) 01:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I said I can provide diffs if required. Since you haven't asked me to provide any, that's why none are here. As I said, I am still happy to provide diffs if required.  — Calvin999 09:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

"...or seen his editing style or his bloodhound-like stalking of editors he dislikes or has issues with.". Diffs are required for such an outrageous claim, and I see no reason why this unprovoked, extreme personal attack from you should go unchallenged, Softlavender. In fact, I'm considering opening a complaint about it. You are welcome to give irrefutable evidence that what you've said is accurate or strike it. Your choice. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:55, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I dunno, several of your comments in this very thread could be used to support the contention that you have pursued Maranofan with "bloodhound-like" focus (though that's a far cry from stalking, as such). The fact that you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick would support that statement as well. Softlavender may have been overly harsh in their phrasing, but the sentiment is absolutely on point. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 18:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

"several of your comments in this very thread could be used to support the contention that you have pursued Maranofan with "bloodhound-like" focus" Providing diffs as evidence that this report is not only frivolous but (as another editor noted below) a complete waste of time and to show the filer is walking very close into boomerang territory is not pursuing anyone. It's doing what's required and necessary to defend oneself in this snake-pit called AN/I.

"you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick" Really? Please provide diffs from this AN/I that support such an accusation. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:18, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

K. Here's one, in which you refuse to stop interacting with MF despite their request. There are others, of course. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 20:37, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Your claim was, "you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick". I asked you to provide evidence I ever said or did either. You reply with a diff to this comment from me: "I will not agree to an interaction ban because I have done nothing that warrants it nor the black mark it brings.", and then further claim that I stated I "...refuse to stop interacting with MF despite their request" Your evidence does not show I refused to back off, nor does it show I am not dropping the stick. My comment obviously is what it appears: I will not agree to a formal interaction ban because I have done nothing wrong and no evidence has been given by MF that an IBan is warranted. This has already been pointed out by others in this thread, as well. This in mind, I do not deserve nor have I created a situation that the stigma or burden of a formal and/or indefinite IBan would bring. Further, I never said I was refusing to stop interacting with MF. Not once. Again, another misrepresentation from you - actually, an out-and-out lie. I don't appreciate you falsely representing what I've said nor do I appreciate being lied to and about. Especially by an administrator. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 20:59, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Your entire participation in this thread is predicated on the fact that MaranoFan asked you to stop interacting with them, and you refused. So they came here asking the community to require you to stop interacting with them (and, as part of that, agreed to stop interacting with you in turn). And you opposed the request, repeatedly and at length. So no, I don't think characterizing your response as refusing to back off is unreasonable. I asked you if you'd agree to a voluntary interaction ban, and you refused. "I will not agree to an interaction ban..." you said, at the diff I linked above. What you seem to not understand is that agreeing voluntarily to not interact with someone doesn't put a black mark on any record. No one is keeping score, here. This isn't fucking Reddit or some such. All that means is that - wait for it - you stop talking to or about that person, and they in turn stop talking to or about you. Period. Full stop. They can't be banned from interacting with you without you being banned from interacting with them - so explain to me, please, why you want to continue interacting with MF? You say that you don't, but yet you oppose a very simple request that would end, for the foreseeable future, any possibility of interaction. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

"No one is keeping score, here" Sure. No one is keeping score. That's a laugh. Obviously, you're thinking of what happens at the My Little Pony and Rainbow Unicorn Noticeboard at Cotton Candy-pedia rather than ANI at Wikipedia. And yes, you have mischaracterized what I said. Several times. Which tells me I need to stop saying anything to you because every time I have responded to you in this report, you've turned my actual words and obvious meaning into something else entirely. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:05, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, from over here in the cheap seats, your statements have been pretty clear. And you've done nothing to clarify them other than tell me that I'm wrong. So, ok. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:06, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Let's also avoid accusing editors of lying, shall we? Really and truly, all that does is prove my point - and reflects poorly on one of us. And it's not me. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• Block for MaranoFan whose behaviour even here has been less than collegial at times. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 16:09, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Should we have this as an alternative proposal? I see no consensus for the IBAN, and I do concur with Fortuna here... --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I am open for that discussion. That comment with its edit summary really showcase how this user reacts and in no way is it acceptable. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 02:01, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I concur, Mirela. Should we start a new section with this alternative proposal? --Ches (talk) (contribs) 10:53, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

@Chesnaught555: A sub-section, yes. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 23:48, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

OK, Mirela and Fortuna - filed as subsection below. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support I disagree with the canvassing, but I agree that MaranoFan needs to cool down. Let's see if an IBAN would allow her to focus on content creation and other more useful activities. I am unfamiliar with the history between Winkelvi and MaranoFan, but I recently see quite a bit of edit warring and disputes arising from comparatively minor issues. SSTflyer 16:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

You don't see any recent edit warring from me, SSTflyer. I'd appreciate it if you would revise your comment and be more concise. If the edit warring is coming from MF, then you need to say that so others will not get the wrong impression. It's not me edit warring, please correct your comment. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support. Neither of these editors have clean hands in their interactions with each other, so a two-way IBAN seems to make the most sense. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 11:05, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

  Changing to strong support in light of the fact that Winkelvi has opened two fruitless SPIs against MaranoFan, the second of which was pretty much completely frivolous. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 16:02, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I'd appreciate it if you'd take a moment to understand the history on the first SPI filed a year ago. I had been undergoing an extreme amount of unrelenting tag-team harassment by both parties named in the SPI in my userspace. It seemed to me (and others at the time, including Calidum who emailed me about opening an SPI on MaranoFan but has since turned on me for reasons I am completely unclear about) that they were the same editor, especially considering how it was all occurring. If you'd like diffs, Starke, I can provide them for you). The latest SPI was poor judgement on my part and I shouldn't have done it. I'm not saying this because of your comment or because of this IBan proposal, but because I have had time to think about it and realized that it was not the best thing for me to do. We all learn from our mistakes, and the last SPI was a mistake on my part. The other one, however, was warranted considering what was happening at the time. The harassment was horrible - and was noted as such by more than one administrator and several editors. It did look like the two were the same person. Link to that SPI here. One more thing: I wasn't the only one who thought MF was socking, Chasewc91 did as well and filed another SPI on MF a few months later here. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:52, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Essentially agree with WP:BOOMERANG analysis by EvergreenFir (DIFF), and harassment analysis by Chesnaught555 (DIFF), above. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 14:57, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• I don't support an IBAN, but I don't support a "boomerang" for MF either. She was provoked by comments about her and is oversensitive. The diffs cited don't demonstrate harassment; I actually think the one on WV's page was a kind of gesture of appreciation, not sarcastic. Let's just drop this big waste of time. Coretheapple (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2016 (UTC) (Correcting, now support IBAN.) Coretheapple (talk) 17:23, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support as the least we can do to give MaranoFan a break from the harassment I've been observing for months. Softlavender's characterization of WV style is completely accurate. Anything Ches says is quite suspect for as someone else noted Ches & WV are essentially joined at the hip, to the point I wonder if one is not a sock of the other. Legacypac (talk) 06:07, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Oh, for the love of christ... "someone else noted Ches & WV are essentially joined at the hip, to the point I wonder if one is not a sock of the other." You'd better have a real good explanation along with some convincing evidence to make an outrageous claim like that. Or are you just trying to poison the well? I've seen some shitty, personal-attacky, non-AGF things said about me in Wikipedia before, but that pretty much takes the cake -- along with someone else saying I'm asking for an IBan, someone else saying I've been edit warring recently, someone else saying I'm stalking MF, and an administrator actually saying above (without proof) that I have refused to stop interacting with MF... enough. What a bunch of bullshit. None of it comes with diffs, none of it comes with evidence -- all of it is smoke and mirrors bullshit. So sick of it. All of it. The lies, the piling on, the ganging up, the vendettas. Encyclopedia? What encyclopedia? All this thread is amounting to now is internet flaming and a free-for-all. For fuck's sake. Drmies, Bbb23, NeilN, Ritchie333: will somebody, anybody with sense please do something about this? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 07:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

No, I am not a sock of Winkelvi. If you like, I can log out, make an IP edit, and confirm it is me - I live in the UK. Should I do that? Heck, most people know I'm British anyway, just by looking at my written English. I have no issue with doing this. Best, --Ches (talk) (contribs) 09:27, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Putting aside the "sock" red herring, I agree with Legacypac and with Softlavender's description of WV's editing style. I personally favor closing this without action. However, WV doesn't get any medals for his conduct by any stretch of the imagination. Coretheapple (talk) 13:52, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

"I agree with Legacypac and with Softlavender's description of WV's editing style." Which is another red-herring as it has absolutely nothing to do with what the original "proposal" and what this report is supposed to be about. I'm not a fan of your editing style, either. Who cares? Your editing style is not the issue just as my editing style isn't the issue. I'm now forced to point out: what can be the motivation for bringing editing style up in a thread that isn't about editing style? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:51, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I was bending over backwards by calling it a red herring, and the diffs cited by MF were gratuitous and provocative, and appeared to have the desired effect. Clearly you are impervious to reason over this. Coretheapple (talk) 14:23, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

WV loves one way interaction bans. How many editors has be banned from his talk page now? Legacypac (talk) 17:06, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose WV is not the problem here. Possible boomerang considering the behavior documented above. --DHeyward (talk) 08:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support These 2 editors, despite the well-established truth that nothing productive comes of their relationship, cannot seem to stay away from each other on their own. It is time for the Wikipedia community to take action and prevent needless bickering. Display name 99 (talk) 13:46, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support I'd also recommend an IBAN between MF and Calvin, even more so than the current proposal. Keeping the three of them separated would be beneficial to all three parties. Azealia911 _talk 15:22, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Fine with IBAN, and agreed with Azealia911. KGirlTrucker87 (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support - Per all the above.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 06:30, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support - clearly an issue here that would be resolved with an IBAN. - ^theWOLFchild 20:50, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

While I am starting to see Sergecross' point re: my responses to comments in this thread, I will not be silent on this !vote. Clearly a retaliatory move based on this exchange and my comments here. Prior to the AN/I he filed, I had not heard of this user and have never had any interaction with them previously. I realize anyone is allowed to comment at AN/I regardless of previous interaction, however, I think that the diffs I provided here along with this diff to Wolfchild's block log (numerous blocks specifically for harassing other editors) gives a good picture of what their !vote is really all about. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 20:59, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for pointing out that I have an active report on ANI - that's why I'm here. And yes, our recent interactions demonstrated to me your poor attitude towards others and this project in general. Unlike you, I actually took the time to read through the ANI I'm commenting on, and can easily see that an IBAN is the best way to protect the project from any further disruption caused by you two interacting. The fact that sooo many others here agree with this assessment speaks volumes, and you should spend more time considering your actions and attitude, instead of attacking others. ("Block log" indeed... have you ever heard the saying about "People in glass houses"...?) You should worry about your own, very active, very recent, block log, instead of mine. - ^theWOLFchild 21:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Closing this?

Do any admins feel like reviewing this to determine if an interaction ban should be enacted as requested? I'd rather not see another meaningful discussion be archived prematurely. Calidum ¤ 17:48, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that would be great if someone could help out. Its been going for about a week and a half now, and discussion has slowed down to a crawl. Sergecross73 msg me 15:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Anyone at all? Calidum ¤ 21:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Making sure this doesn't auto-archive again. Sergecross73 msg me 13:14, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I think there's a consensus for the iban. But I participated. So, if no one closes this and it goes in the bin, can I at least get admins who didn't comment to keep an eye open for shenanigans? This would be the second thread about some of these editors to end up archived without consensus, and I don't want to see a third. Thanks. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I put in a request for closure yesterday at WP:AN/RFC. I don't know if that'll help. Hasnt so far. only (talk) 14:35, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that pretty much represents where I'm at in all of this as well. Sergecross73 msg me 13:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Discounting WV's known allies, the consensus looks pretty clear. Hope that some Admin will look at this and close. Legacypac (talk) 03:36, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Alternative proposal: block for MaranoFan

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Suggested by User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, who stated that MF's "behaviour even here has been less than collegial at times". MaranoFan's canvassing of other editors and lack of evidence supporting a reason for an IBAN between them and Winkelvi calls for WP:BOOMERANG sanctions - not to mention the uncivil behaviour over on my talk page, which MF has stated was directed at me simply because I wanted to archive an escalating thread: Here and here. Posting now to avoid edit conflicting - will edit this post as time goes on. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support as co-proposer, if that is a word. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - Marano's actions don't especially seem worse than any of the other 3-4 editors involved in this. Unless we're doling out blocks to everyone involved and meddling in all of this, this is not a good proposal. (An iban solves this issue better.) Sergecross73 msg me 14:56, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per Sergecross. An interaction ban would solve pretty much everything, I would hope. Of course, if the ban fails to gain consensus and shenanigans continue - yes, blocks (for multiple editors) would likely be in order. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:02, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. MF has done nothing to warrant a block. She was provoked by some comments made about her, but "gossip" does not justify what she is asking. That said, asking for something you're not entitled to doesn't give rise to a block. Coretheapple (talk) 15:14, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. The discussion is about an IBAN for WV and MF. That's it. If anything grows out out of this discussion then an IBAN for WV and MF is what is needed.--ML (talk) 19:53, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - A block is not justified and would only address (roughly) half of the problem.- MrX 19:58, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. As MrX notes, this would solve only part of the problem (though I reckon one-fourth, not one-half). Calidum ¤ 21:37, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Zero justification. MaranoFan is a good-faith editor who has been trying to do their best. This is a partisan proposal. Softlavender (talk) 01:31, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose as this is just another attempt by WV's meat puppet to attack an editor they disagree with. Legacypac (talk) 04:53, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I had absolutely nothing to do with this proposal, and Ches is no one's meat-puppet. Please stop with the nasty, hateful personal attacks and unfounded allegations against other editors. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 05:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Seconded. I'm not here to represent anybody else's views. I have my own, and this is essentially my proposal (two other editors had agreed with it beforehand, neither of whom were Winkelvi). --Ches (talk) (contribs) 09:54, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support - I would support based on the the reasons given. There is nothing good-faith about MF, but I will agree that she has been trying her best (at being disruptive, rude and disrespectful). I don't think an IBAN would be sufficient as MF just can't help herself.  — Calvin999 09:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - The whole notion of this discussion is laughable. Some admin please speedy archive this. Lolol.--MaranoFan (talk) 09:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
  • You can't oppose (or support) a block on yourself. It's obvious that you wouldn't agree. You're not even taking this seriously and you are being disrespectful. Also, no admin will help you when you are calling them "some admin".  — Calvin999 15:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
    • Yes you can. There are no restrictions on who can vote; I done the same thing with myself in the past. JAGUAR  16:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
      • Didn't I ask you to never communicate with me again. (Rhetorical; doesn't require an answer). 19:45, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
        • Thats irrelevant, what you said is objectively wrong, and any number of people would have said the same thing if he hadn't. And even that's ignoring the insane odds against this poorly thought out proposal. You're only reinforcing the idea that you're probably amongst the group of 3-4 editors that can't stop with the petty bickering that inspired a call for an Iban in the first place. Sergecross73 msg me 00:40, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
          • • It is relevant, shows you are an uninvolved editor. MF wants the IBAN too, so. Several editors here have said Oppose but have written that is is still a viable option to block MF. So it is more than 3-4 really.  — Calvin999 08:32, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - There doesn't seem to be a legitimate justification to block MaranoFan, so long as he agrees to keep his comments civil. Lack of evidence and canvassing, while not encouraged behavior, isn't a "blockable" offense to me - provided that he stops the canvassing when asked. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose MF has done nothing to deserve this proposition of a block. Calvin on the other hand, well... JAGUAR  15:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
  • The feeling is reassuringly mutual, Jaguar. Please grow up and stop harassing me/mentioning me/talking about me. You're coming across like a child.  — Calvin999 19:47, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
    • I was just pointing out the fact that anybody can vote in any debate, even if it's a block imposed on the intended user. I don't know how that's considered harassing. Believe me, I would be over the moon if somebody created a sub-thread "Proposed interaction ban between Calvin and Jaguar". JAGUAR  21:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
      • You are harassing me by making unnecessary comments. I already asked for an IBAN between us but nothing was done about it.  — Calvin999 08:32, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
        • What, me voting in this discussion is considered harassing? JAGUAR  10:25, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - Since MF is a good-faith editor, a block for this user is a little too much. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose-My vote is probably not needed here, but I'll give it anyway. It is unfair to block only MaranoFan. Display name 99 (talk) 13:47, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Arbitrary break

Hatting this before the childish back-and-forth continues. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 19:30, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
MaranoFan, it would be within your best interest not to badger all the Oppose !voters. This will not help your case. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 19:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC) That is called making your case. In a court, you try to convince jury members who don't support you. Winkelvi is welcome to do so if he wishes.--MaranoFan (talk) 19:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC) This isn't a court case, MaranoFan. Re-adding subsection as an arbitrary break means something which isn't directly related to the previous discussion. I am not adding another !vote, and therefore it is required. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 19:15, 29 March 2016 (UTC) And this is bogging discussion down either further. I recommend deleting this and saving it for Marano's talk page if you truly need to continue. I don't even follow why you're advising Marano when you're actively against Marano's proposal anyways. Regardless, please take this elsewhere, its just taking away from the actual discussion. Sergecross73 msg me 19:26, 29 March 2016 (UTC) Good one, NE Ent. Thanks for the initial confusion, the good hearty laugh, commemorating the spirit of the day, and closing this nonsense. Best to you,-- WV ● ✉ ✓ 23:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

YuHuw's-endless disruptive edit war against the consensus:

See also: § Harassment getting worse

It is true for every page he is editing from his last appearance on wikipedia under this name . Below only several examples: Please pay your special attention on his meaningless revert argumentation.

Karaites

1)

2)

3)

4)

5)

6)

7)

8)

9)

10)

11)

12)

13)

Qaraimits

[1)] exposed sockpuppetry by his anonimous IP. You can see his self exposure here

[2)]

3)]

Karaite

1) exposed sockpuppetry as above under the same IP

2)

3)

4)

The user constantly distorts RS he cites or reverts without meaningful argumentation.Please help Неполканов (talk) 18:32, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

[| This page ] might shed some more light on this issue. It looks to be a long term issue ! KoshVorlon 18:56, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes please look at this edit in particular [23] these meat-puppets gang up on anyone who touch their turf [24]. Also pay very close attention to the evidence where Неполканов exposes himself as a puppet presented on this page [25]. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. There are also several ANI cases to read through to catch up. Неполканов is an archetypal boy who cries wolf. YuHuw (talk) 04:58, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

First you claim that some conspiracy of missionaries is active in the articles, now you're claiming that a post where Неполканов lists the members of a consensus is him confessing to meat puppetry? That's just asinine, and yet another instance where you clearly are not assuming good faith. Please, show all the times where I've come to Неполканов's defense before you came in with your disruptive editing. If you can't provide such evidence, then don't make such accusations. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

YuHuw has a recurring problem where he ignores any consensus that he doesn't agree with, handles points raised for that consensus by either ignoring it, pretending he has already addressed it, changing the subject, or attributing (if perhaps pseudo-civilly) unevidenced bad-faith motives to others. This can be readily seen on my talk page and at Talk:Karaims. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Ian, I have apologized for inadvertently upsetting your religious conviction s so many times [26] I am losing count. It was the week of Purim vacation and I was a little high spirited. I am really embarrassed and sorry about it. Everyone makes mistakes. There is no need to bare a grudge on the matter. You have in all innocence taken the wrong side on this matter. I am indeed the one who encourages WP:BRD discussion to reach consensus (extensively) just as you recommend, while the meat-puppets who WP:CANVASS each other blatantly (as noticed by another editor here) -and have sadly duped you- are the ones who don't if you could only get past your anger at my comment on Christian missionary activity then you might be able to see that more clearly. I sincerely wish you all the best Ian. Take care. YuHuw (talk) 06:14, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

P.S. Ian, you have not read carefully the edit he made which exposes him but if you follow the instructions posted you will discover as clear as day. I will post them again for you here. Неполканов must be considered to be either a clumsy meat-puppet or a sockpuppet of a clumsy puppet-master, as justified by examining the third occurrence of Неполканов (use the find function) on this page. It all brings into serious and justified question whether there is any sincere motivation behind complaints against me by those three extremely close friends. Best regards. YuHuw (talk) 06:20, 1 April 2016 (UTC) P.P.S. concerning WP:NPA every time one of them calls me Kaz it is a Personal attack for the resons specified in the history of their case against me. You can see the results of that personal attack in the history of my talk page[27]. Three months of asking them to stop dozens and dozens of times when we all know what that means is why the wavering of WP:AGF in my attitude is justified. Nevertheless, I am still cordial and welcome input which is content based as long as there are no personal attacks like calling me stupid. [28] YuHuw (talk) 06:31, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

For the hundredth time, my convictions (whatever they are) do not play into this. Whether someone is claiming that Muslims, Masons, or lizard people are taking over, I have a problem with any paranoid rant claiming any sort of editorial conspiracies as you have proclaimed. That you keep insisting otherwise, especially since you have no evidence, is a sign that you are not assuming good faith (and without the assumption of good faith, all pseudo-civility is worthless). Here we go again with you attributing bad-faith motives without evidence.

You cannot pretend to be engaged in BRD when you are continually reverting to your version and consider any consensus that disagrees with you to be the result of canvassing and meatpuppetry. Ian.thomson (talk) 06:44, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

There is no rant, there are only mistakes and apologies. Everyone makes mistakes Ian. Perhaps your conflict of interest in this matter makes your comments unhelpful. The discussion pages are proof of my frequent requests for sources and discussion to reach consensus whenever there has been a revert as per WP:BRD. I reverted you twice in a row but explained with good faith here [29] and your current version of that page remains to this day after you ignored the discussions which led to that originally accepted version in the first place [30]. Instead of taking us forward, you took it backwards but nevertheless I supported you in good faith. You just have a grudge against me which is very unfortunate. And I even supported you against that IP editor remember as a sign of my good faith towards you. [31] You blocked that editor with no evidence besides two edits on Karaims as a puppet of Kaz remember? YuHuw (talk) 06:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC) By the way, this IP [32] was yours too wasn't it Ian? YuHuw (talk) 06:57, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

You call feeding Kaz's accusations of admin abuse support? The IP editor behaved like Kaz and his IP address is located in the same place as other proven Kaz socks. Perhaps your agreement with him is clouding your judgement.

And what exactly would my conflict of interest be? If you are going to once again suggest religion (which again, would be assuming bad faith), then the only non-hypocritical course of action would leave the articles on Karaites and so forth to atheists and pagans.

As for the IP, that's obviously Kaz, and for you to say it is mine is a damn lie and a sign that you not assuming good faith. There is no reasonable way you could make such an accusation in good faith. Ian.thomson (talk) 07:08, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Ian wrote: "You call feeding Kaz's accusations of admin abuse support? " I am sorry I do not understand your meaning in this sentence. YuHuw (talk) 07:12, 1 April 2016 (UTC) And how can someone be a duck of an editor which has not been on wikipedia for probably years? Which proven sock of Kaz was not based in Cardiff? I have read through all the case history while I was accused and I do not recall the evidence you are referring to. If you have a fact to state please present it clearly. And I agreed with you not that IP remember that is why I reverted him and restored your version[33]. Leaving the Karaites articles to atheists and pagans might be a good idea. :)

But why do you assume the IP I asked whether was you is obviously Kaz? I only asked because it looks like you had similar interests. Why on earth would it be bad faith? I see no similarity between Kaz's edits and that IP's edits. YuHuw (talk) 07:19, 1 April 2016 (UTC) I am not calling you any kind of puppet Ian. Everyone edits accidentally when signed out from time to time. It is no crime. But as it offends you so much I take back the question. Jeez YuHuw (talk) 07:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry I forgot to respond to your question in your edit summary [34]. The thought had not crossed my mind. Meanwhile you on the other hand who decided to get involved after the matter was closed did call me Kaz after I was vindicated remember? I wrote to you about it[35] and your disagreement with the admin decision is the source of your conflict of interest in this matter. As an admin yourself you should already be aware that the Kaz puppets are extremely cold. Best regards. YuHuw (talk) 07:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

The IP you mentioned behaves the opposite of me in this matter, and behaves like you and Kaz (and it locates to the sort of ISPs that Kaz has been known to use). You asked a question that insisted that that was my IP address. Doing so by accident would be incredibly stupid, which is why I cannot imagine that it was an accident. Having calmed myself down, I still cannot see how someone could ask such a question in good faith. Trolling is unacceptable here, even if it's to try and have your way in an article.

I was going to just suggest that maybe you need to be topic-banned. But if you keep trolling, I'm going to push for a block. Ian.thomson (talk) 09:06, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

You clearly have not calmed down and perhaps you never will with regards to me which is extremely unfortunate. Nevertheless, and in all sincerity, please provide one example of me trolling in this discussion above as you claim and tell me kindly in all good faith please as I have been very cordial with you, what exactly I said why exactly it is trolling and how exactly I should have expressed the concept in a way that you would not have considered trolling. Considering your conflict of interest concerning the matter one would expect there should be a Wiki policy against you being involved with me again. If however, you have nothing constructive to say and will only try to threaten and intimidate me again then I would prefer you simply do not post anything in response to this at all as I will find it yet another example of harassment from you which I have to remind you I have already asked once you to stop. Take it easy. YuHuw (talk) 20:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

You said that an IP address that clearly behaves more like you or Kaz belonged to me. How is that not trolling? Ian.thomson (talk) 04:28, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I did not say that. And sadly no-one involved in this behaves like me. If they did we would all be enjoying pleasant discussions on talk pages sharing knowledge like gentlemen about content and there would be no ANI postings, no insults, no attempts to extract personal information, no canvassing, no-edit-warring by meat-puppetry, no attempts to identify each other, no blocking IPs for 2 reasonable edits, no harassment and definitely no threats of any kind. That is what I imagined could happen when I signed up and that is what I was still hoping for after a month of signing up despite having suffered all of the above which has continued to now nearly 4 months down the line. I am not so snowy white anymore and have become more cynical about wikipedia but have not given up all hope yet. P.S. if you want some examples of trolling take a look at some of these edits [36] especially [37][38][39]. You should also know that Kaz is their code-word for calling someone a Pedo. It might be best to stop calling people Kaz and unravel yourself from their dupe until you have become familiar with their whole game first. If I knew 4 moths ago what I know now, I would never have signed up to defend User:Wbm1058 in the first place [40]. Take care. YuHuw (talk) 19:30, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Please can you stop these unsubstantiated allegations that other editors have accused you of sexual offences. This kind of trolling by YuHuw is a breach of of the Wikipedia:No personal attacks policy.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:53, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

YuHuw, here you said "By the way, this IP [41] was yours too wasn't it Ian?" That IP address is one that obviously behaves like either you or Kaz. Now you are straight up lying when the evidence is on the very page, in this very conversation. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:53, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

The IP has no behavior comparable to me. Your spin-doctoring, harassing, personal attacks, breach of assuming good faith, trolling, etc. are all too much. I have tried to be cordial but this conversation is going no-where. You should simply be saying sorry for calling me a "Kaz" and we will leave it at that. But you won't so I am taking a break. I am not going to respond here again unless someone neutral with some knowledge of the history @Someguy1221: @Liz: @Zzuuzz:steps in to try and mediate between us. Take care. YuHuw (talk) 04:50, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Of the two of us, who has been reverting Toddy1 on topics relating to Karaites, Keraites, and so forth? The IP is closer to you than me, and denying that would just be further trolling. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

I looked at YuHuw edit history, and I see a lot of reverts with no explanation, claiming that people are lying or sockpuppets, etc. In the discussion above he flatly refuses to accept that he did anything wrong, and the accuses somebody (unclear who) of harassment with no evidence. This has to stop. If YuHuw does not stop accusing people of bad faith and reverting without explanation admin action is necessary IMO. YuHuw should focus the energy in a more constructive way. --OpenFuture (talk) 12:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Looking at the edit history of Keraites, I am really turned off by the edit summaries: "lying in edit summary to pretend he is removing something", "This is the 4th or 5th revert of this issue by this user since he has re-signed to WP with a new ID", "undo restoration of User:Ancietsteppe's POV by Meatpuppet", "incessant edit summary insults is very disparaging and harassing", "revert edits by "YuHuw". If you read the new source he added, it does not support the statement he cited it for. Typical of Kaz", and on and on. But I can't see how we can single anyone out for sanctions without sanctioning the whole lot of you. So the seemingly endless drama-board threads related to this have gone on for too long. The above is for me, too mind-numbing and TL;DR for me to slog through it all. I'm going to try to take this to Talk:Keraites and attempt to sort out the most recent two-edit revert war on that page. Y'all should focus more on content and stop disparaging each other. wbm1058 (talk) 17:24, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

YuHuw is editing as an IP editor again. He is "answering" a question raised at Talk:Keraites#"Molokan" heresy. His "answer" consisted of rehashing the statement in the article and then changing the subject.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:49, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

It's increasingly bizarre that someone who objects so vehemently to being called Kaz should then proceed to act exactly like... KAZ. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 07:57, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

178.217.194.100's long-term edit warring and continued addition of unsourced statistics

Last year, Jolly Janner and I repeatedly tried to explain to 178.217.194.100 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) at User talk:178.217.194.100 the need to source additions of statistics to demography articles. The editor largely ignored our advice, and engaged in edit warring. As well as adding statistics without sources, their additions are often poorly formatted, they have ignored repeated advice about the correct use of commas for thousand separators and full stops for decimal points, and the edits are likely in violation of WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. I noticed today that the editor has resumed their behaviour, restoring unsourced material that was recently removed from the Demographics of France article and re-adding statistics about England and Wales to Demography of England that were previously removed. I think that enough is enough and some action needs to be taken to stop this disruptive behaviour. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:44, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I would like to see a block at this point. I originally had hoped the user had gone quiet, because they had decided to turn away from Wikipedia, but it's clear this user is not here to build an encyclopedia. The scale of the edits is huge (the user also edits under different IPs), which means the work require to revert them is huge. It's a shame, since the user obviously has the potential to make useful edits. In light of their inability to listen, a block is what I see as the only option. I don't ever recall seeing them make an edit that wasn't reverted? Jolly Ω Janner 07:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I can almost forgive the edit warring - the IP editor clearly believes that these highly detailed statistical tables are useful additions - but they stubbornly refuse to listen to advice about correct formatting, suggesting that they are not really here to build an encyclopedia but rather to bludgeon away according to their own rules. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• My recommendation would be a fairly long block and a six-month topic ban on stats charts. Softlavender (talk) 09:40, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
• It would be great to get input and/or action from some administrators on this. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
• This issue appears to still be ongoing. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:07, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment: Agree with recommendation by Softlavender for a long block and topic ban on the IP user, who unfortunately seems unwilling or willfully ignoring requests to engage in further discussion about the matter. — Cirt (talk) 00:33, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Is this still a problem? I see a comment from the IP editor acknowledging a problem with their editing and recent edits try to provide a source, although the formatting isn't ideal. Zad68 13:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• The IP has commented that they won't edit UK demography articles any more, but that's not really acknowledging the problem, which concerns their insistence on ignoring WP:NOTSTATSBOOK at a whole range of articles. Edits such as this suggest that they also haven't taken on board messages about the need for proper referencing, as the URL linked to is just a menu page. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:58, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
• More of this today. Quite why Demographics of Algeria needs population pyramids for 2008, 2011, 2012 and 2014 is unclear. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
• The IP has made lots more similar additions tonight, including reinstating that material at Demographics of Algeria after Jolly Janner reverted the additions I linked to above. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

• He seems to have acquired a fetish for raw survey data used to calculate population pyramids. I suggest all of them be removed. Only the population pyramid itself would be useful in an encyclopedia. I've suggested a possible workaround to it on his talk page. In the meantime, we will have to remove all the survey data from our articles. I would still welcome a block, since we've previously advised workarounds, but the user doesn't listen. I don't hold much hope on this occasion either. Jolly Ω Janner 21:12, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Can someone please block this user soon? Another round of disruptive edits today after ignoring my alternative on their talk page. I've cleaned up some pages, but it takes a long time to revert them all. As they admitted, they are trying to add it to every country. Jolly Ω Janner 19:29, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Could an admin please take a look at this case? The IP user doesn't appear to be willing to respect consensus. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:01, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Block reviews

I blocked Threegoodmonkeys (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) as WP:NOTHERE, two edits only, both blatant trolling, and if this is not a sockpuppet then I am a threegoodmonkeys' uncle.

I also blocked Hendersonmj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for more complex treasons, which should nonetheless be readily obvious from a quick review of his contributions. I have been watching Energy Catalyzer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for some time, it is a device claimed by its inventor (a convicted fraudster) to generate substantial amounts of essentially free energy; there is a crossover with cold fusion and a long history of promotion of claims which are generally reckoned by the reality based community to have no merit. Given [42] I'd have thought this wasn't in the least controversial as a block-and-revert, but one editor has demanded that I recant so I bring it here for review. Guy (Help!) 21:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Good blocks both. Miniapolis 22:58, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Without even giving my thoughts regarding their possible sock puppet connections here, I will say that both of these blocks are completely justified, were made with good judgment and cause, as were well within Wikipedia's blocking policy. I agree that they are suspicious per this edit. Not only a day after Hendersonmj was blocked, Threegoodmonkeys was created. Just 11 minutes later, the edit above was made (which was only the user's second edit). Is it a "smoking bullet", such as having similar words, habits, articles, MO, etc? No. But it does yield reasonable suspicion? Yes. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

We block people for WP:TREASON now? Heh, all hail His Royal Majesty Jimbo the First, Ruler over the English Wikipedia, Emperor over all language colonies, projects, and metas and Lord of Wikia.--v/r - TP 03:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Don't be silly. For treason, we sue them in a court of law in Trenton, New Jersey. Guy (Help!) 08:47, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Only petty treason you know! _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 07:20, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• Violates BLOCKNO - What JzG forgot to mention is that he is not only watching Energy Catalyzer, but also editing it, edit warring on it, and discussing it on the talk page from a strong POV [43] [44] [45] [46] [47]. It was only after the block that the blocked user outed themselves as a sockpuppet. WP:INVOLVED and WP:BLOCK are pretty clear that admins don't get to take control of content of an article that they have decided is not "reality based" and block users who get in their way. I would expect that admins doing this repeatedly might find themselves desysoped at some point. I would also point out that while comments about Rossi's past criminality are not WP:BLP violations, speculation that he is still committing crimes blatantly violates WP:BLPCRIME.- MrX 11:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Yep; two edits there in the last six months... _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 11:58, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

So involvement "expires" after 6 months now? I must have missed that memo. Pretty obvious that Guy is involved here - while these may have been good blocks, he should not have made them himself. Fyddlestix (talk) 13:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I am "involved" in preventing long-term abuse of Wikipedia by a convicted fraudster. Guy (Help!) 17:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

There's no need to tie an admin's hands because they're familiar with a topic. It's unnecessary bureaucracy to have to call in another admin for such obvious cases. clpo13_(talk) 17:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Policy and practice say otherwise.- MrX 20:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:IAR is also policy, you know, though I see below you don't put much stock in it. clpo13_(talk) 21:58, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

MrX - I'm honestly a bit torn here. First of all, I will acknowledge your response, your concerns, and the diffs that you provided. While the diffs do show JzG's involvement with the article, they were made back in August and September 2015. It also appears that any opposition to Hendersonmj's edits would be content and source-related (I'm going to read through each of Hendersonmj's changes again). Do edits made six months ago still consider a user involved? My thought is that it depends on the situation. My first gut reaction when it comes to this situation is no, but I'll admit that I'm not overly familiar with the "history" of this policy and what has been determined in the past. However, if I were in JzG's shoes, I probably would have played it safe and had someone else do the blocking (because you never know). ;-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 17:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Nothing would give me greater pleasure than for other admins to take an interest in this article. It's been a problem for a looooong time and it's heating up (no pun intended) because Rossi is now suing an investor who considers he failed to prove his claims. We are likely to see a fair bit of SPA action there in coming months. Guy (Help!) 19:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an emergency. If the article is subjected to problem editing, someone will report it, and someone else (an involved admin) will take care of it. This is how it's supposed to work, and by the way, it tends to work really well.- MrX 20:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

@Oshwah:. The reason JzG is involved and should not be blocking people he's in content disputes with and protecting the article for a year, is not only because he's edited the article, but also because he has an expressed bias about the subject, and apparently a loathing of its inventor. Admins don't get to skate around policy or WP:BLP policy just because they really really feel strongly about a subject.- MrX 20:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

MrX - I completely understand what constitutes being "involved" as an Administrator, and I agree that he would have been seen as "involved" if he had made those edits you listed a week ago, or maybe even a month ago and then performed the block on Hendersonmj today - especially if it would have gained him an upper hand in a dispute, argument, or with contributing or editing the article. However, it's been six months since he's last contributed to the article whatsoever (assuming the diffs listed were the latest edits that he made to the article/talk page). Is he currently in any content disputes with anyone involving the Energy Catalyzer article and at this very time? Is there something that can show that his blocks were done in order to gain an upper hand in a dispute that is currently occurring? Again, I admit that I haven't observed enough discussions to where I fully gauge how long or when an Administrator would cease becoming "involved" with an article, but my first reaction here is to ask these questions and then base my judgment off of these answers. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• JzG was completely upfront about his minor involvement (note the lowercase) in this article and I don't see a case here that the blocks were bad ones in any other respect. We have WP:IAR for this very reason, to ignore the strictest interpretation of policy subclauses in order to do something that obviously benefits the encyclopedia. Let's remember we have 2-300 active admins and 5 million articles. We can't rely on getting someone else to do it in every case. Gamaliel (talk) 20:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

  Interesting. Does it go without saying that you also believe that IAR applies to the BLP policy that people constantly beat their chests about? - MrX 20:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

  The whole point of IAR is to employ common sense in specific unforeseen cases that don't fit into strict policy boxes. So I can't say what would be an appropriate case until I see it, otherwise we'd just put that into the policy. If there's a BLP issue here, please let us know what it might be. Gamaliel (talk) 20:53, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

  Thanks, I think I already understand the principle and practicality of IAR. Regarding BLP, evidently you didn't trouble yourself to read any of the diffs that I already provide upthread, such as:

• "Yes, he [Rossi] has a patent on a water heater. No doubt this will help him raise more capital, using bait-and-switch."
• "I think it is very useful that you have publicly associated yourself with Radin, Weiler, Sheldrake and sundry other cranks"
• "Getting people to throw money down the drain is Rossi's business model, the fact that it happened again does not affect the unproven status of the device or Rossi's history of fraud and unsubstantiated claims."

I look forward to hearing about how these comments improve the encyclopedia and how they are not indicative of an inappropriate bias for anyone using admin tools anywhere near this article.- MrX 21:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• You're right, I apologize for forgetting that part of the discussion. I don't want to encourage such comments but I don't see anything particularly problematic about them, sorry. According to our article on Rossi, he was responsible for a series of frauds, including a notorious cold fusion fraud. The encyclopedia should not be used to lambaste criminals but we can point out that a person who committed fraud is a person who committed fraud if it is relevant to the discussion. Gamaliel (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Right. Rossi is a convicted fraudster, that is a matter of established fact. It is also an established fact that he has used several successive announcements of funding to imply legitimacy. I encourage any admins to look through the talk page history - there are two kinds of people promoting the e-cat, cold fusionists and Rossi believers. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion is relevant, as is the pseudoscience case. I draw a distinction between newbies appearing at the talk page to tell us we're completely wrong and Rossi's device will save the world, and people who appear and pitch right in to editing content, repeating prior rejected edits, and showing knowledge of Wikipedia jargon. I don't think that is unreasonable. Guy (Help!) 09:48, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

There's a big difference between saying "Rossi was convicted of fraud" (past tense; factual; sourced) and "Rossi is perpetrating a fraud" (present tense; speculation; unsourced). If I posted on talk:Dennis Hastert something like "Dennis Hastert is probably molesting boys right now", I would rightfully be admonished, if not blocked. If I did it repeatedly, I would be blocked. This type of conduct from an admin is shameful and falls short of the high standard of conduct that's expected of admins (or so I thought).- MrX 22:23, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

None of the three quotes you list states that Rossi is committing fraud, only that he has a history of fraud and unsubstantiated claims, which is - as you yourself note - a matter of simple fact. I have no particular interest in this other than as an extension of the cold fusion article with its long history of advocacy editing by cold fusion believers. If anything my POV should be the opposite to what you imply, as my best friend actually worked on Fleischmann's original cold fusion experiments, but I don't really have a POV other than "prove it" and that means not taking Rossi's word at face value. It would be like taking Kevin Trudeau's word on a claim about the HCG diet. We simply don't take the word of people with a legally established history of dishonesty, especially in the area where that dishonesty was identified (in Rossi's case free energy). And we don't sit idly by while "brand new editors" pile in to add previously rejected promotional content. Guy (Help!) 10:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

"Getting people to throw money down the drain is Rossi's business model, the fact that it happened again does not affect the unproven status of the device or Rossi's history of fraud and unsubstantiated claims." I don't see how a reasonable person in the reality-based community, with basic grade school reading comprehension skills could see that as anything other than strongly implying that Rossi is committing fraud. To put it even more simply, "It happened again (Getting people to throw money down the drain)" and "Getting people to throw money down the drain is Rossi's business model" are unsourced smears and plainly not allowed by WP:BLPTALK and WP:BLPCRIME.- MrX 15:20, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• These were both good blocks. The second would not have been if it hadn't been promptly brought here for review. —Cryptic 20:42, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, and I thank MrX for prompting me to do so, I should have done this without a reminder and I will bear that in mind going forward. Guy (Help!) 09:48, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

JzG's behavior has fallen short of the standard's expected of both editor and adminstrator; this rollback style edit is not minor [48] and does not meet the criteria for use at Wikipedia:Rollback#When_to_use_rollback. His block of Hendersonmj, with no prior discussion on article or user talk, is both hasty and involved. The fact the Cold Fusion has been crap since Fleischmann and Pons conned politicians and the media in 1989 is not a valid reason to violate policy; Wikipedia standard is reliable sources, not truth (see, for example, Chemtrails and numerous articles on inexplicably notable people -- names omitted per BLP but think so-called "reality TV" ...).. WP:IAR is properly understood as not letting the technical wording of policies interfere doing the commonsense thing, not an excuse to skip necessary steps in dispute resolution. WP:AGF and all that, and no, no one is suggesting wiki suicide, it's really just not that important an article. The notion that admins are hard to find is not supported by evidence; a recent AN request had a wait time of only 21 minutes; there was nothing so urgent requiring action on Energy Catalyzer in an accelerated time frame. I'd like to see a reversal of the Henderonmj block and a commitment from JzG to avoid misuse of rollback in the future. NE Ent 23:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I always enjoy your idiosyncratic interpretations of policy. I rolled the edit back because it was blatantly promotional. Remember the context: a "free energy" cold fusion device that is being promoted by a convicted fraudster. Dispute resolution is fine for genuinely new accounts (cf. recent AE against Conzar, a sincere but misguided newbie). This looks like a sockpuppet (or a meatpuppet, given the known and documented off-wiki collaboration of cold fusionists).

With the exception of the lawsuit, which was under discussion on Talk, the material added was largely material that has been the subject of extensive prior debate, and rejected as synthesis. There is a patent, therefore it works! Or not, since British Rail had a patent for a flying saucer powered by nuclear explosions.

If any admin wants to replace the block with a DS notice and warning then that's fine. Or if the consensus of uninvolved admins is that I was wrong, then I will unblock and apologise. I have no problem with people asking me to post a block for review, I have no problem with accepting the results of any independent review (we can of course ignore the voices of the usual griefers). Guy (Help!) 07:59, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

As usual, NE Ent is encouraging trouble for the encyclopedia with completely unrealistic views about what others should do. Anyone wanting to offer advice about how to prevent fringe pushers subverting articles should spend a few months helping stem the never-ending inflow first. Johnuniq (talk) 12:24, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Encouraging trouble by pointing out that an admin is using admin tools (rollback, protection, and blocking) to control content? Thank you NE Ent! The way to prevent articles from being subverted with fringe pushing is the same way you prevent bad content in any any topic area. If you want to see a never-ending inflow of bad content, try new page patrol. I assure you, fringe topics are not our biggest wiki-emergency, by far. - MrX 22:38, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

For example, a contentious topic Homophobia has been kept NPOV without any involved blocks by simply watching and editing [49], [50] and reverting NPOV inclusions with appropriate edit summary [51]. While tiresome and tedious, it's not actually that hard to edit per policy. NE Ent 23:11, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

That is a poor comparison. Homophobia is not a commercial product being promoted by a convicted fraudster, and bigots typically get short shrift on Wikipedia. Guy (Help!) 15:37, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• both blocks were good. i should note that i was one of the targets of threemonkey's monkeying around. also kudos to Guy for this. Jytdog (talk) 18:18, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

• I have read through all of the difference posts and the comments here. It seems to me that JzG ought to have asked another administrator to step in. There are many admins who would have been able to intervene without the appearance of impropriety. I seem to recall the Arbitration Committee requiring that in multiple rulings of theirs. I don't see any outright problems with what JzG did but HOW he went about it. New England Cop (talk) 21:44, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
  • That sounds easy, but people who have tried it know that it often does not work. Admins are busy and an uninvolved admin would need at least half an hour to understand the background before they were in a position to think about the particular edits being reported. The topic in question is a magic box that produces an inexhaustible stream of very low cost energy, and people have invested large amounts in the company that is developing the device. Along with the free energy comes an inexhaustible supply of editors keen to add factoids to promote the device. Please review the archived talk page discussions and join in if you would like to help. Johnuniq (talk) 22:40, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
    • Please post a diff of an administrator requesting assistance on either AN or ANI and not getting a timely response from another administrator. NE Ent 23:11, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
      • JzG has been an admin for a very long time and has been involved in enough controversy that he clearly knows the Arbitration Committee requires excusing oneself and calling in an uninvolved administrator when there is even the appearance of impropriety. He chose to ignore this and all in all it's a very, very minor violation of the rules of conduct governing administrators. I'd simply file it away and keep it in mind when and if JzG is ever called to the carpet to explain the many controversies he has been involved in. I propose archiving this thread but not forgetting it. New England Cop (talk) 00:42, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

What I should have done was post it for review unprompted. That owuld have stopped the disruption and maintained transparency. I acknowledge fault here, and have thanked MrX for reminding me that this is what I should have done. Guy (Help!) 10:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• First block is obviously fine under the traditional interpretation of wp:involved, which is to not worry about it much when it comes to "duh" cases like that one. I didn't bother looking at the second block but it sounds ok too based on other people's comments, and that no one has called for overturning it. Bringing it here for review when someone asked for that sufficed, imho. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 05:43, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Wtshymanski reverting IP editors in breach of editing restrictions

In March 2015, Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) had an editing restriction imposed because he was routinely reverting any edit made by an IP address based editor regardless of whether it was vandalism or a good faith edit. The editing restriction was:

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · logs) is banned from reverting any edit made by an editor using an IP address. This includes not only a direct reversion of an edit (using the "undo" button) but also indirectly reverting by copy-pasting text from a previous version of an article.

On the 23rd March 2016, Wtshymanski reverted an IP editor in violation of this ban with this edit.

On the 16th March, Wtshymanski reverted an IP address editor with this edit. This was an indirect revert (by copy pasting) of this good faith edit made by an IP address editor. The ban was enacted precisely to stop this last behaviour.

Note: that the ban was made for any edit made by an IP editor because Wtshymanski was disguising reverts of good faith edits by labelling them as vandalism. This is also a known tactic: to carry out an apparently harmless edit in amongst a raft of other edits to check if anyone is watching. If they are not, it is back to business as usual. 212.183.128.152 (talk) 12:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Here is a link to the long ANI discussion about this editing restriction. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 12:47, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This was a perfectly good revert. However, a ban applies and it's indefinite. Nevertheless, I find swinging the ban hammer based on a single (good) revert a little too much. The remedy was proposed to break a pattern, and this edit can hardly be said to fit that particular mold. Don't try to kill a gnat with a howitzer... Kleuske (talk) 12:57, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

P.S. As for the known tactic, unless you have evidence (and show it) that this is a recurring pattern with this user WP:AGF applies. Kleuske (talk) 13:00, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• I'm concerned about this because although I'd fully support these particular edits (one is vandalism, one an error) there is a problem here that Wtshymanski acquired a richly deserved editing restriction to limit. He is in breach of it.

I favour no action here, as I can't see that any action would be any more than punitive. However he should be reminded that the restriction is in place. Any further reversions like this are likely to attract sanctions.

I'm mostly unimpressed by the IP editor here trawling to find excuses to bring Wtshymanski to ANI weeks after an uninvolved event. In what way is that a constructive action? Is there need for a WP:BOOMERANG here? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:10, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I think Andy nailed it. The vandalism revert was brainless. yes W should not have done it, but pointless to punish now. But spank that petty IP. Jytdog (talk) 13:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I concur that the best response would be to caution Wtshymanski with no other administrative action. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:02, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• Suggestion If Wtshymanski didn't breach the ban for over a year (block log is clean since 2013, so I can only assume this is the case), and their first technical slipup was not of the same disruptive kind that led to the ban in the first place, perhaps someone should suggest appealing the ban, or maybe putting them on probation where they can revert clear vandalism, mistakes, etc. for, say, six months, before the restriction is lifted entirely? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Support indefinite and infinite are not the same. Kleuske (talk) 15:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

An examination of Wtshymanski's editing history answers your point. Since the ban in March 2015, Wtshymanski has only made a handful of edits (19 to be precise) up to March of this year. He has since then sprung back to life with nearly 200 edits.

Someone above dismissed the second example that I posted as an 'error'. In what way? The IP editor made a good faith edit that was technically correct. It might be argued by some that we don't call batteries as cells in every day parlance but that is not the point. Wtshymanski reverted the edit against his ban. Part of the original complaint was that Wtshymanski was not checking the history prior to his actions.

An editing ban is an editing ban. Either we have them or we don't. At the very least, Wtshymanski should be warned that he has erred. 212.183.128.152 (talk) 15:17, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

That is interesting, and does make me lean more toward a six-month probation period before all sanctions are lifted than simply immediately lifting the sanctions, but then again you might be just as much at fault, because apparently an IP editor has been trying to goad Wtshymanski into violating their restriction. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Not me. I have had no interaction with Wtshymanski for well over a year (apart from placing the required ANI notice on his talk page). Also forgive me but I have had to make this post from an alternative platform because the ANI page refuses to update on my regular PC. 85.255.232.7 (talk) 16:42, 9 April 2016 (UTC) (AKA 212.183.128.252)

The IP who was reverted for their error went to 3RR to push an unsourced and incorrect change, in quite a proscriptive form, "properly speaking, a battery consists of two or more cells". This is simply wrong (1 cell is still a battery), especially when stated so firmly. So whoever reverts it, that's not a statement that belongs in that article. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Before considering a reduction in restrictions, please look at the pattern of behavior here:

• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive879#Editor routinely reverting contributions from IP address editors.
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive866#Wtshymanski hammering his personal knowledge into articles again
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive841#User Wtshymanski refusing to follow the merge procedure when merging articles
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive733#Unilateral redirects without merging as stated in edit summaries - User:Wtshymanski
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive683#Request for admin attention re: proposed deletion of multiple electronics components articles
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive690#Wtshymanski failing to work collaboratively
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive138#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Floydian .28Result: Stale.29
• Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 36#Power factor
• Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wtshymanski
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive257#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:85.255.233.193 (Result: Protected)
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive172#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Guy Macon (Result: declined, semi-protected)
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive149#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:24.177.120.74 (Result: page protected)
• Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance/archive103#Wtshymanski and the transistor AfDs
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure/Archive 7#Talk:PSR_B1919.2B21.23Merge

Some of the above incidents that should have ended up as blocks ended up instead as page protection because Wtshymanski's latest opponent (typically a new user) behaved worse, so Wtshymanski's block log does not tell the whole story.

Whenever a line is drawn that Wtshymanski is not supposed to cross, he stands on the line with his toes hanging over it and makes random short dashes over the line and back. This generates endless debates as to whether sanctions are appropriate for the minor infraction.

Also note that whenever Wtshymanski faces the possibility of sanctions, he typically does not defend himself or comment at ANI (statistically, this is a great strategy for avoiding sanctions) but instead stops editing for a while. The old "he hasn't edited since X, so nothing to do here" trick works every time -- his RFC/U was closed with "Considering that Wtshymanski has not edited since 16 May 2012, no immediate administrative action appears required". If he stops editing, please don't fall for this trick again.

Whenever administrators decline to take any action, Wtshymanski regards it as an endorsement of his behavior. He has repeatedly responded to warnings on his talk page with a comment that he has been taken to ANI, no action was taken, and therefore his behavior is acceptable. "... and yet, every time someone lists me at WqA or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest."[52]

The good news is that Wtshymanski responds well to even short blocks. A 6 or 12-hour block will cause the specific behavior that led to the block to stop for many months and even years. The other good news is that the vast majority of the time he does really good work, and we have a shortage of skilled engineers who can detect problems in highly technical engineering articles. The bad news is that every so often Wtshymanski pushes the engineering equivalent of fringe theories and pseudoscience, and in such cases he refuses to accept any feedback from the other skilled engineers who are working on the page. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Most of those come from before -- some long before -- the restriction was put in place. Wtshymanski technically violated his ban twice, in a benign manner that others agree with on the substance, but thee also got in fights with IP editors and new editors as four years before the ban was put in place and managed to avoid restrictions because they were right on the substance then as well. Per what the IP said above, technically it would be impossible for a dozen instances of violating the ban to have already gone unnoticed, because they've only been actively editing for a few weeks. Retroactively blocking Wtshymanski for an edit they made back in 2011, because it my have been in violation of a restriction placed in 2015, even for only a few hours, is a terrible idea. I don't know if it was your intention -- I actually doubt it was -- but I know for a fact that there are contributors on ANI who actively try to enforce restrictions ex post facto, and I can't shake the feeling that some of them get their way, so even accidentally giving them their way here would be a disastrous misstep. And fourteen threads on multiple forums (only six on ANI) over more than half a decade is pretty average, and possibly below average for someone who's made on average around 13 edits a day for over a decade. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Where has anyone suggested that Wtshymanski be blocked for an edit made in 2011? Guy has provided some context but that is basically all. 85.255.232.7 (talk) 16:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

In fact, I specifically recommended that Wtshymanski not be blocked. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:26, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but at least one IP editor is requesting thus, and taking a rather cloak-and-dagger approach to it; posting links to discussions from five years ago may not muddy the waters any further, but it hardly helps the situation. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:32, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. My "posting links to discussions from five years ago" helps the situation a lot. This is a case of long-term behavior, and the fact that he was doing the same thing five or even ten years ago is extremely relevant. I presented the following context:

• Wtshymanski does a lot of good work and should be retained if at all possible.
• Wtshymanski is usually (but not always) right when it comes to questions involving engineering and technology.
• Wtshymanski often ends up battling IPs and newly-registered users who are pushing engineering pseudoscience, often for commercial reasons.
• Wtshymanski exhibits long-term problematic behavior and will not collaborate with other established Wikipedia editors who have technical skills.
• Wtshymanski (unlike most editors who end up at ANI) is extremely responsive to sanctions, and a very short block usually puts an end to the particular behavior being addressed.

This is context that will help any administrator who decides to deal with this situation. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:03, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

• As a sometime critic of WTS, I looked at the two WTS diffs in the original report. The first one was a straightforward vandalism revert that nobody should get worked up about. The second was more problematic but should have been discussed with WTS before bringing it here. Especially since there doesn't seem to be a recent recurring issue, the report and its followup came across as axe-grinding, as per Andy Dingley. I think an admin should leave WTS a talk message linking the second diff and asking him to be more careful, but more immediate action against WTS is not needed. The batteries/cells thing should be discussed on the article talk page. The reporting IP's style also reminds me of a certain someone but I'll leave any decisions about that to others. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 21:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Remove the restriction Because frankly, it's ambiguous and can be wikilawyered to death and has no teeth at all - as evidenced here. What's the use of a ban on reverting IP edits if we're not going to enforce it? Take of off, let WTS go willy nilly all over the project, and let's just look the other direction because, once again, productive editors are above community critique. Save us the ANI discussions for a worthless ban and just take it off (I'm being sarcastic and serious at the same time, get rid of it).--v/r - TP 06:54, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Considering the fact that no administrator seems to be willing to even caution Wtshymanski when he violates this, and the easily-verifiable fact that Wtshymanski consistently interprets administrator inaction as permission, the restriction has already been effectively removed. We might as well make it official so nobody wastes any effort reporting future violations. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• So today we see the return of Wtshymanski, a first post to this thread asking to have the restriction lifted, then within the hour a reversion of an IP: clearly vandalism, reverted. Yes, this is "clearly vandalism". However this restriction does not have any exclusion clause for "clearly vandalism" - rightly so, because although no-one is going to object over such clear vandalism, the problem is that Wtshymanski's judgement over what is "vandalism" has been questioned in the past.

For today though, I see that someone under an editing restriction choosing to flout it so obviously during an ANI thread is hardly encouraging. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:05, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Observation of this forum shows that for threads of this type, it requires someone to propose what action is required to be taken and for there to be community support for it. That being the case ...

Proposal 1

That Wtshymanski be formally warned of his breach of his editing restriction and that a block will be imposed for any further breach. In view of the nature of the reverts, I think a block now would be counterproductive, and with the lack of activity for a couple of weeks the admins may well consider it time served.

• Support: As proposer. I would observe that if editing restrictions are not going to be enforced then, taking Guy's point above to its logical conclusion, WP:RESTRICT might as well be deleted in toto. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 11:47, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• I have read (some) of the above.: The purpose of an editing restriction is to protect the ostensible work of the encyclopedia, not to provide fodder for Jesuitical level discussions of fine distinctions. I would agree with the above proposals to remove the ban. --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:12, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Of course the turkey would vote to abolish Christmas! 85.255.232.199 (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• support With an emphasis on "block for future infringement". See above. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:58, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal 2

I might have supported option 1, but as there has now been a further infringement as in the next section, I have to propose: that Wtshymanski be blocked from editing for a period of at least one month. This is to reflect the blatant refusal to abide by this restriction. Certainly, no consideration should now be given to lifting the restriction.

Support as OP and proposer. 85.255.232.199 (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Support, but I don't believe in mandating block lengths. That should be left to the discretion of the blocking administrator. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:29, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Support In view of latest revert, a warning now is pointless. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 16:55, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Oppose. I just checked, and WP:3RRNO states that reversion of obvious vandalism (including page blanking) is not subject to sanction. If this is correct, then isn't it inappropriate to block him over it? If I've misinterpreted the policy somehow, I'm open to retracting my vote, but for now it seems like this doesn't qualify. --Gimubrc (talk) 15:48, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

You have misinterpreted the policy (easy to do -- it isn't clear about how it interacts with bans). Let's start with an easy case. Assume that I get banned from editing Wikipedia. Am I allowed to revert obvious vandalism four times because of 3RRNO? No, I am not. I am not allowed to revert even once or make any other edit. So let's assume that I get topic banned from all banana-related pages. Am I allowed to revert four times on Banana because of 3RRNO? No, I am not. I am not allowed to revert even once or make any other edit to that page. The 3RRNO exception is only for those who are otherwise allowed to edit. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Continued refusal to abide by restriction

Wtshymanski, in spite of clearly being aware of this discussion about his editing restriction has blatantly and in defiance of the restriction reverted yet another edit made by an IP editor. I acknowledge that the revert was of pure vandalism, but I perhaps need to remind the contributors here, that the restriction was made for any edit made by an IP editor because Wtshymanski, in his campaign to drive IP editors away, was deliberately disguising reversions of good faith edits as vandalism. 85.255.232.199 (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

MaranoFan and WP:CIR issues

This is a report concerning the user MaranoFan, whom after the emergence of several incidents on Wikipedia, I have come to determine has WP:CIR issues. Understandably, one may think that I am being unduly harsh, but here is my evidence which suggests that this is the case. Please note that I may shorten the user's name at times to "Marano" or "MF" throughout this filing.

1. At Talk That Talk (Rihanna song): MaranoFan removed content from the article which was actually present at the time it was nominated for Featured Article status in September 2013. The explanation was that the Daily Mail, a British tabloid newspaper, was an unreliable source. Had this information and its source been contentious, it would have been removed prior to achieving its high standard award. However, what Marano had failed to realise was that the Daily Mail can be used as a source for musical reviews - see here. Furthermore, this negative review, carried out by a DM journalist, is needed to achieve a balanced viewpoint on the article.
2. Following this, MF then proceeded to continue with their removal of several sources from the article Love Me Like You; difference between revisions here. The same behaviour was demonstrated here, here, and here. Another user, Snuggums, told MaranoFan later that HitFix was indeed a reliable source here.
3. The aforementioned reversions actually appear to be an attempt to WP:HOUND the user Calvin999; the sources were initially added by him. I also see passive-aggressive attempts to WP:HOUND the user Winkelvi, such as through the giving of barnstars to editors whom they had ostensibly never had interactions with before, and also who had been in disagreement with WV before here. The statement "I don't think we have ever interacted on wiki before" is incorrect, as MF had interacted with this user on their talk page previously in regards to an issue with an editor who is now indefinitely blocked for abusing multiple accounts: Here.
4. Furthermore, this non-AGF edit summary calls Calvin999 a vandal, something which he is most definitely not; he has been on Wikipedia for over six years.
5. Finally, MaranoFan recently requested autopatrolled rights. In their reason for requesting these rights, MaranoFan said: "[It] would be REALLY helpful in creating articles." - diff here However, WP:AUTOPAT does not help one in the creation of articles. It was evident that MF had failed to read the aforementioned page on the user right, and another editor had pointed this out on the WP:PERM page - diff here.

Also note: There's also this GA nomination. MaranoFan had nominated this article for GA when they had not edited it for weeks - they also had not met the improvement criteria issued in the previous GA nom which had failed. Calvin further addressed the failed GA at User talk:Carbrera. When MaranoFan decided to notify Tomica of the situation, and even when asked by him to stop, Marano carried on - difference between revisions here.

Whilst I have time to do this, I'll add: Polemic vios by MF here and here. In one of these revisions, I am referred to as a "vandal", as MF had previously referred to Calvin. I, for one, have never vandalised Wikipedia, and this is therefore a baseless accusation, not to mention the fact that it seems they are unaware of the definition for "vandal", further demonstrating their incompetence as an editor.

Overall, I feel as if I can no longer assume that this editor is contributing in good faith in any way whatsoever. When a long-term editor fails to understand key policies, and is harassing other editors, I can only assume that there are WP:CIR issues involved. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:21, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Adding: MaranoFan has demonstrated serious WP:OWN issues on "Watch Me Do". It completely fails WP:NSONGS and MaranoFan reverted my redirect with the edit summary of: Advising you to not edit articles I've created. thanks.. I am being threatened to not edit any article that MaranoFan has created. That is OWN at it's absolute highest.  — Calvin999 19:40, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposed 1 week block for Ches

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Having reviewed this report (which demonstrates that Ches does not even understand WP:CIR or WP:AGF) and the Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Alternative_proposal:_block_for_MaranoFan spectacular time wasting failure by Ches to get the same editor blocked above, it is evident that Ches is on a quest to drive User:MaranoFan off the project for no good reason. This behavior is harassing another editor and should not be rewarded by more attention at ANi except to look at Ches's behavior.

• Support as proposer. Legacypac (talk) 16:35, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't know the background of this but the first 4 points presented seem legit and the 5th makes an off-topic point. I see no reason to ban Ches for that. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 16:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose I can't see how Ches should have a WP:BOOMERANG hit them here - as per QEDK, 4 valid points worthy of bringing to the community I feel, and there's no 'driving off the project' going on here I don't think - evidence please. Mike1901 (talk) 17:06, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose and condemn this as spurious and tendentious. As some of the complaints contained within the previous thread alluded too were equally legitimate: and it is perhaps slightly unfair to blame Chesnaught555 for that thread, when in fact it was originally proposed *BY ME*... and was supported by other editors too. This will undoubtedly be a case of that rarity in physics and wood-working... the boomerang that itself boomerangs. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 17:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per QEDK. Gamaliel (talk) 17:26, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per QEDK also. Roy Howard Mills (talk) 18:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose and recommend the proposer withdraw this absurdity. Hy Brasil (talk) 18:58, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'm going to create a Bingo card for ANI. The first row will have "meritless calls for a boomerang", "accusations of bullying", "166 IP harasses Ricky81682", "Drmies", and "a close is reverted at least three times". NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:01, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Note I have undone Legacypac's close: if WP:INVOLVED could apply to non-Admins, this would be the money shot. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 19:55, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually you did not, Ches and his proxy did. Legacypac (talk) 20:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Well DUH... edit conflict. That was a great close of yours though, really great. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 04:16, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

In passing the community is empowered to reach consensus on topic, interaction or site bans but cannot impose a block. Whereas admins can unilaterally impose a block, but not a ban. Yes it's a boring technicality - only worth mentioning in that strictly speaking this division of authority invalidates the proposal in the above thread. -- Euryalus (talk) 12:41, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I just noticed this thread and was appalled by Legacypc's proposal. May I remind everyone that Ches did in fact not create the idea. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi initially proposed a block for MaranoFan with Ches and I agreeing. I suggested to Ches to create a sub-section for the second proposal in MF's thread. To just blatantly assume that Ches was the initiator was just wrong. Please check your facts straight. I haven't reviewed this thread, but I will once I find the time to do so. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 16:01, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

I'd just like to thank you both (Callmemirela and Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi) for clarifying that. Of course, I do accept responsibility for starting the official proposal as such. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 17:23, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

So, Callmemirela, Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, QEDK, Mike1901, Gamaliel, Hy Brasil, and NinjaRobotPirate - thanks for your input so far. I am pinging you all as you have all responded to this thread in some way - what do you think of these WP:POLEMIC violations posted after I filed this discussion here and here? As you can see by the diffs, Marano is referring to me as a "vandal" - does this demonstrate incompetence due to the fact that I do not fall under this definition? --Ches (talk) (contribs) 15:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I see a lot of drama going on, and much of it doesn't have an immediately obvious instigator. Part of the problem is that I don't want to spend hours reading through a dozen old conversations to get the full picture, and ANI already has enough people who go off half-cocked. But, yes, I think MaranoFan needs to stop posting polemics and calling people vandals, which is a personal attack. Making lightly-veiled personal attacks in a rant on your user page is a bad idea. It's not going to reduce drama. I don't know what's going on in all this other drama, and I'd rather not dig deeper to find out. My advice is for everyone to just chill out and leave each other alone. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

That's fine, NinjaRobotPirate - thanks for your input. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 18:31, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't see anything actionable. Some of his comments seem intended to illicit a negative response. If the pattern continues perhaps re-visit later. Hy Brasil (talk) 21:04, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Given how you and especially your proxy WV have attacked this editor over and over, I think you are the last editors that should be auditing his edits. Legacypac (talk) 21:33, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Feudin'

It might be better, in the long run, to community ban a half dozen to a dozen editors, on both sides of this feud, and see if the grownups can claw back some amount of control. Or, setting our sights a little lower, it might at least reduce the average length of ANI by about a third. A lot of the same names keep popping up, either attacking one of the editors in the other clan, or defending their own clan members who are being attacked.

It would be tricky to decide how far down the list of hangers-on to go with the bans, but a couple of good rules of thumb that someone might be a good candidate for banning might be:

• they have commented in this thread, or the Winkelvi thread further up the page, and consider more than one of the other participants a "friend" or an "enemy"
• they have said 'you are banned from my talk page' to more than one person in the last 6 months
• they communicate primarily through templates
• they seem to have an extremely tenuous grasp of the golden rule; indeed, they seem to follow its complete opposite

One approach would an ArbCom case, wherein we try to get all of them banned at once. However, I suspect that many of them would welcome that, as the drama is fun, and it would get derailed. Wide-ranging interaction bans would be too difficult to maintain where there are so many editors involved. Another approach, which I'm considering instigating unilaterally on my own, is to declare an involuntary cease fire, and the next time I see any of these people say anything remotely unkind about any of the others, no matter how justified that particular comment might be, either directly or on their friend's talk pages, no matter how many vandals they report or edits they make or friends they have, no matter how long they've been here, I'll block them for 1 month. And then I'll block anyone on the other side who gloats or gravedances. Until they're all blocked, or until they all stop it. Thoughts? --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, that, with an exception for user talk pages. If they want to whine and bitch at each other about nothing much they can do so as much as they like on their own talkpages as far as I'm concerned, but when crap like this keeps cropping up on watchlists they're over the line into disruption. I'm more than willing to hand out indefs all around and let all parties compete to write the most convincing {{unblock}}; this is possibly the most ridiculously overblown dispute I've ever seen on Wikipedia, and I was around for the Em Dash Wars. This page is supposed to be "for reporting and discussing incidents on the English Wikipedia that require the intervention of administrators and experienced editors", not "for people to waste other peoples' time whining that someone disagreed with them". ‑ Iridescent 22:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm in major agreement with many of your points here, Floquenbeam and Iridescent. My watchlist has many "go away" type reverts from these "factions" on their respective talk pages on weekly basis. Lately it's been the barnstars and such for, basically, being on the same side of the argument as them. They assume bad faith of each other. They attack each other through both veiled and unveiled references. They follow each other around and act in ways that would violate WP:INVOLVED if they had admin tools. Little good is coming from this group. only (talk) 01:32, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

As an observation, just looking at those who appear currently to be the three current noisiest protagonists, Chesnaught555 has more edits to ANI than to the entire Talk: and Wikipedia Talk: namespaces combined, and 10 times as many edits to his own userpage than to any actual article; Winkelvi has more edits to both ANEW and ANI than to any article, while MaranoFan has less than 100 edits to all the drama boards combined and consistently has the majority of their edits to article space. If this doesn't end in blocks all round, it may be time to consider topic bans for the former two from any AN/ANI/ANEW discussion not directly concerning them pour encourager les autres, to be extended as necessary to any further members of this particular squabbling group who continues to raise trivial complaints anywhere other than on their own talkpages. Ignore all rules cuts both ways; "if a rule prevents you from improving Wikipedia ignore it" is sound policy, but it also means that if there's consensus that an editor or group of editors is generating more heat than light and disrupting the work of people who are actually doing something useful, it's within policy to take whatever action is necessary to shut them up, and clogging up ANI in the way this clique have been surely qualifies. (For whichever aggrieved editor wants to complain that this post is violating their Inalienable Wikipedia Right To Free Speech, arbcom is that way.) ‑ Iridescent 02:59, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

That's a bullshit ad hominem argument. A person can participate anywhere whenever they feel like. I'm not advocating anything for anyone, just making a point having faced such arguments. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 03:09, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I've sort of had enough of this, so if blocking me or a CBAN is in order, I bear no objection. If the community doesn't see me fit to edit, I'll do as they say. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 06:43, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

If it helps, I'm all up for a ceasefire, to stop the escalating drama. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to just close this as withdrawn, but please consider it so. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 07:01, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

"see if the grownups can claw back some amount of control." - We are all adults here. I'm pretty sure I'm older than most in this thread.  — Calvin999 08:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Same here, Calvin999. As far as a "ceasefire" - I refuse to refer to it as such because I've never considered any of this a "war". But, because at least two of us being referred to are adults, I'm fine saying I have no qualms being an adult by continuing to leave the stick on the ground (pretty sure I haven't had the stick in my hand for at least a week in this thread or the other one started by MF far above this one). Personally, I like Floquenbeam's idea: "declare an involuntary cease fire, and the next time I see any of these people say anything remotely unkind about any of the others, no matter how justified that particular comment might be, either directly or on their friend's talk pages, no matter how many vandals they report or edits they make or friends they have, no matter how long they've been here, I'll block them for 1 month. And then I'll block anyone on the other side who gloats or gravedances". The only thing I disagree with is making it involuntary. I think there should be an opportunity for any/all involved to act on this voluntarily; if they do not, then make it involuntary for those not complying on a voluntary basis. I will be the first to take the chance to voluntarily declare a truce. In so doing, I'm asking only (since he filed a close request for the other report above) to take note of my voluntary action. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:49, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I have no objection to Floquenbeam's idea. I am fully aware of the fact that I am part of a community where most people are adults, and as such, I will behave in a mature manner and drop the stick. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:47, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

So just over 48 hours after saying he's declaring a "voluntary" truce, Winkelvi nominates an article created by MaranoFan for AFD. This comes after Calvin999 redirected the article, MaranoFan reverted it, and Calvin999 restored the redirect. This set of actions truly shows how we need "involuntary" restrictions placed on these parties. only (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I think this comment and diff is less than forthright: Please, anyone reading this, look at the actual AfD, the wording of the nom, the reasoning behind it and see if nominating it was the right or wrong thing to do based on policy. AfD link here. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 03:45, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Easter126

There is a massive Sockfarm around the Topic Stuart Styron.

In the Table only SUL works fine...

Ulla1956 is allready blocked on en:wp (legal threat), user Patriska2601 Helde43 Schitty666 Schmidtrach2 are bloked od de:wp ((Personal attacks or harassment))

The Easter126 was blocked infinit (Personal attacks or harassment), but the Admin reduces it to three month until jun. I suggest to set it again to infinit, cause this is a Sockpuppet / DUCK Schmitty (talk) 19:43, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Ah yes, Stuart Styron has come up before, Schmitty. See Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_80#Bert_Martinez_.282.29 and Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_94#Stuart_Styron, you might like to check these out. The Stuart Styron page itself has been salted so nothing much is going to happen there. As it happens, I have an IP on my user page today asking about Stuart Styron, I've not responded yet. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:47, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalismusmeldung/Archiv/2016/04/10#Benutzer:2.243.198.61_.28erl..29_2 Banned for 1day in de:wp. He is trying to stalk me in german wikipedia, look at my userpage and userdisk https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Benutzer_Diskussion:Schmitty&action=history Schmitty (talk) 22:52, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

His contribs were fully deleted: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spezial:Beitr%C3%A4ge/2.243.198.61 Schmitty (talk) 22:55, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

• Those were my listings at COIN.
  • User:Fasterthanyou123 self disclosed as Stuart Styron, so a sock of User:Styron111 . Dormant, but both still should be blocked indef for socking/promo only IMHO, plus this widespread abuse from a big sockfarm.
  • User:Flashfox7 account name appears to be a play on my account name, and a clear sock. Dormant but should be blocked. Widefox; talk 09:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Of those listed by Schmitty, four have created pages (all deleted) about Stuart Styron: Ulla1956 (blocked indefinitely), Flashfox7, Easter126 (blocked 3 months) and Nature024. Fasterthanyou123, who has as you say self-identified as Styron, also edited the Stuart Styron page. Was your conclusion that there was meatpuppetry/paid editing at play here? The others are not registered, have not edited or, in the case of Styron111, made only two edits in 2011. None are currently active on en.wiki (in the cases of Ulla1956 and Easter126, this is not voluntary). Schmitty has opened a checkuser request on de.wiki and we can see how that pans out. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 04:01, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Thought we indef blocked socks? This is quite humdrum and melodramatic but not over yet: AFAIR, one person with at least three accounts, possibly with other accounts being meats from a promo company (use of "we" is probably not a English translation artifact but may be more of a royal we that group account/meats). Now, add IP duck sock of Styron User:2.244.158.181 - broken English, style of choosing the good path(TM), etc. COIN can be a bit toothless, but this drama keeps giving despite it being belatedly salted... Ad hominem and legal threats towards Schmitty and disruption of my usertalk [53] Widefox; talk 08:21, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

www.pressemitteilung-verteilen.com/wikipedia-deutschland-mit-benutzer-schmitty-ganz-weit-vorne Stalking in a bad way, in this PR you find a link to:

http://www.amazon.de/Die-Akte-Wikipedia-Informationen-Online-Enzyklop%C3%A4die/dp/386445123X/ref=pd_cp_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=19PY5TE21NHKGG28C81B

Amazon has already deleted this "Post", stating me as a Psychopath. The other PressArtikel is also deleted now.

You find the Links in conrtibutions of de:Benutzerin:Ulla1956; en:wp already blocked for legal threats, is now blocked on de:wp

Schmitty (talk) 11:02, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Here's an English translation of the www.pressemitteilung-verteilen.com link which is a dead link today [54] .Widefox; talk 14:23, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

http://www.pressemitteilung-verteilen.com/wikipedia-deutschland-polizei-ermittelt-gegen-benutzer-schmitty Stalking again Stalking at its best Schmitty (talk) 12:46, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Longfamily417

This report is about the conduct of User:Longfamily417 concerning Draft:SageTea. This draft was submitted nine times to Articles for Creation within 36 hours by the owner of the company, who is apparently in a great hurry to obtain free advertising in Wikipedia for his company, and who has repeatedly made minor changes to the draft without addressing substantive issues. The author was repeatedly cautioned to stop resubmitting the draft tendentiously, and was advised to request comments at the Teahouse or the Help Desk, but persisted in resubmitting. Finally one of the reviewers nominated the draft for Miscellany for Deletion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:SageTea. At this point (and only at this point), the author stated that he would step aside from editing and resubmitting the draft, but would ask another editor, a former employee of the company, to take responsibility. That is a clear case of attempting to game the system.

In this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft%3ASageTea&type=revision&diff=714487940&oldid=714486700 the author included text of a granted patent that was copyrighted by the US Patent and Trademark Office.

Longfamily417 may have a valid argument for notability, which doesn’t change the fact that there is a problem. The problem is not so much the company or the draft or the notability issue. The problem is a disruptive single-purpose account who will stop at nothing to get his free advertising. It is clear now that the real answer is not whether to delete the draft, but whether to delete (or sanction) the editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The following edit was made to my talk page, only after the eighth submission: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARobert_McClenon&type=revision&diff=714535620&oldid=714477850 I may be cynical (or WP:AGF really may be a suicide pact that I am not honoring), but I can't accept the good faith of a statement that my advice is appreciated, when my advice to ask for advice at the Teahouse was ignored. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:38, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Broad Topic-Ban

I propose that User:Longfamily417 be topic-banned from SageTea, broadly construed, and from any other topic in which the editor has any sort of conflict of interest. COI editing in draft space is not normally considered forbidden by policy because the draft is not outward-facing, is subject to review, and may be edited to neutralize it by reviewers and other editors. However, in this case, Longfamily417 is pursuing a COI agenda so aggressively that only a topic-ban will prevent further disruption. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The nominator obviously supports his nomination, and is already counted in. WannaBeEditor (talk) 03:37, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Irrelevant and unnecessary point, actually! _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 07:16, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support142.105.159.60 (talk) 03:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see the problem. They've removed the offending content, they've made a COI statement, they've tried to get outside help in good faith. They've agreed with removals of content. They're trying to comply with our policies; and they've tried to comply with everything being said to them. I don't see what has made you rush over to ANI on this topic. What, exactly, are they doing that is disruptive?--v/r - TP 03:51, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

  Comment - In view of the fact that they did harm by wasting the time of the AFC reviewers by tendentious resubmission, what harm to them is there in handing them a topic-ban from an article that they shouldn't be pushing anyway? It is very common for an editor to say that they won't edit on a topic in order to get a topic-ban quashed, and then wait a few months and resume. Since this editor (although now cooperative) was stubborn and tendentious, why not just topic-ban them?: Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Weak support They're clearly only here to advertise, so topic ban seems okay. However, I think indefinitely blocking as not here to contribute positively would be more appropriate. Also, he's said he's getting someone else to write the article for him, so I guess the topic ban should cover that too? Joseph2302 (talk) 07:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• I propose we topic ban Dweepsteeple too, since they created SageTea in main space, and are clearly the person that the above CEO said he was going to get to work on the draft. Joseph2302 (talk) 07:11, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The above is presumably intended to refer to DweepSteeple rather than the non-existant Dweepsteeple. --David Biddulph (talk) 08:54, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the characterization of myself as "aggressive", I don't share that view. I work very hard on everything I do, and usually put in a 16 hour day, including looking after my 3 kids and running a business with 22 employees. I have been on Wikipedia for all of 2 days, and felt I was putting my time in last weekend, to make the article as best I could. Naturally, being the first submission, I had a lot of feedback, and responded quickly out of respect for the time given by the editors. My intention was not to be aggressive - it was about being timely.

I have done my best to take a step back from being involved in the article. As a CEO, I certainly understand the dangers of conflict of interest. That said, once disclosed, the problem becomes manageable, as long as it is done carefully. I fully recognize this take the guidance of others. I am refraining from comment or involvement in the article, unless asked.

In terms of the statement "getting someone else to write the article for him" I would not say that is how I communicated with the current submitter. Factually, he was a former employee of SageTea, a temporary student who is no longer with the company and left on good terms. He is also bright, and someone I don't talk with very often. What I did say is that he is free to put the article into his own words, and write about the topic however he wants. That said, his comment back to me was that the folks on Wikipedia were very aggressive. So I actually had to apologize to him for that. I think the point here is that I communicated with him about the idea. What I did not do is force him or make any other demand, just passed on the idea. Where it goes after this is out of my hands.

I am the inventor of the patent and the CEO of the company. If anyone wants to ask me about that one topic, I am the expert and willing to answer any questions. If I am not asked, then at this point I have nothing to say. I think that is best with respect to the COI question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Longfamily417 (talk • contribs) 07:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't have admin glasses to see the deleted article in mainspace. Does it read almost the same as the current version in draft space? If so, quack, quack. Does it pass the duck test, in which case we are not just dealing with tendentious and disruptive editing, but sockpuppetry? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I has the admin glasses and the two articles have most of the same content. The deleted article has some additional technical jargon but the puffery is identical. If DweepSteeple isn't a sock, he's a meatpuppet. The claims of 'I just passed on the idea' are disingenous at best. Katie^talk 19:11, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
    • @KrakatoaKatie: Reasonably sure they are different users, because User:Longfamily417 has been adamant that he'll get someone else to write it, although I explained that that would be a COI and meatpuppetry. :ike most of their responses, they didn't listen. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:15, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. I'm not opposed to a block but I'm not convinced there is need. The topic ban seems sufficiently broad. Most likely it'll just means the editor stops editing or is blocked because they don't stop and continue to make COI edits. There is a small chance they'll edit other articles, hopefully productively. While there is also a small chance their editing won't be productive or they'll test the boundaries, the highly narrow focus of their editing thus far suggests to me this is fairly unlikely and we can probably easily deal with it if it does happen. Based on the above comments of meat at a minimum, I suggest DweepSteeple also be topic banned. Nil Einne (talk) 19:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support six-month topic ban for Longfamily417 and DweepSteeple as necessary at this point; the aggressiveness in trying to ram this article into the encyclopedia is inappropriate. Miniapolis 23:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

SageTea article

A point noted above: there is a draft, Draft:SageTea, which is at Mfd, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:SageTea, as promotion of a non-notable topic. The mainspace article appears to have been created as an end-run around that. Since the bar for inclusion in mainspace is higher than that in Draft and the mainspace article had all the same issues identified in the Draft (it was a copy-paste, in fact), I have removed the main space article pending outcome of the Draft MfD. Guy (Help!) 09:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I would also point out that I have been on Wikipedia for all of 4 days now. Give a guy a break. I can learn fast, but am still learning the interface. I hear what everyone is saying. Really. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Longfamily417 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - If you are multiply cautioned to ask for help rather than resubmitting, having been on Wikipedia for only 4 days is a flimsy excuse. Most regular Wikipedia editors try to explain to new editors what they should do differently. It is true that we are not always patient with editors who keep repeating the behavior that they are advised not to repeat. How many warnings do you think are needed to a tendentious editor? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:14, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Sicilian IP disruption in music articles

There's a persistent person from Sicily who is making lots of unreferenced changes to music articles, mixed with a few obvious falsehoods. The most recent involved IPs are as follows:

• 82.51.32.41 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 82.61.34.48 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 82.61.34.110 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 79.53.4.206 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 79.30.91.134 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 79.56.98.36 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 79.27.106.92 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

This guy persists in changing to wrong credits in a few song articles, for instance "Go Away Little Girl"[55][56][57][58][59][60][61] and "To Love A Child."[62][63]

A previous notice about this guy was archived without any discussion: Sicilian IPs pushing Durium Records, Nikka Costa, inserting falsehoods globally. That discussion had a lot more detail about the person's disruption. KrakatoaKatie blocked 82.61.34.110 shortly after the March 19 notice. Can we do something stronger to stop this guy? Binksternet (talk) 03:32, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

He has been warned, and blocked, multiple times so I will block the latest IP. However, he is using Telecom Italia dynamic IPs so will simply pop up on another. A range block is out of the question, the IP addresses are too scattered. We do have the option of semi-protection or pc1. As "Go Away Little Girl" has been suffering since the first week of March and the disruption has continued after a one-week protection, I'll semi-protect it for a longer period. I am not sure if an edit filter would help, perhaps others might comment? --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 05:32, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

P.S. I've created a page to start bringing together reports, IPs, article affected and action taken at User:Malcolmxl5/Sicilian_IPs. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 06:04, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I wish we could globally block this guy. I've been going around to different language wikis to try and counter him, and I've contacted the most effective admin who is quick to recognize, revert and block this guy on Italian-language Wikipedia.[64] Let's see what K'n-yan says about it. Binksternet (talk) 06:32, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

He is certainly prolific. There are a few articles that he edits more than others, "Go Away Little Girl", United Artists Records and "Sleep Walk", for example. If he pops up at those, I'll semi-protect them (or you can request s-p at RfPP). Being quick to recognize him will be key, I think. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 08:00, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

He's popped up again as 95.238.111.155 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log)), this time he is block evading. Added to User:Malcolmxl5/Sicilian_IPs. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Problem with admin who has erroneously accused me of disruptive editing on the page Clarawood

User:Davey2010 has posted to my user talk page accusing me of disruptive editing and stating that I will be blocked if I do it again [65]. The issue stems from a reversion I did of an edit to the page by User:CDRL102 in which they said that a statement was an opinion. In reality the statement was referenced and was a matter of established fact. I explained my reversion substantially on the Clarawood talk page however this page was changed by Davey2010 and the sections deleted [66] [67]. Instead of taking my comment and explanation on board the immediate reaction from Davey2010 and CDRL102 was to accuse me of ownership and inexperience. Davey2010 has previously stated to me that there are Guidelines and Policies on Wikipedia. I have attempted to follow them and anything I have done has been referenced to such. Davey2010 however, admin or not, seems to have the attitude that he can do anything he wants. This is demonstrated by the original AfD he and CDRL102 raised for Clarawood which was closed after approx 1 hour and which was reinstated after a Deletion Review [68] [69]. In other words he has a pattern of what could be termed disruptive behaviour himself and deliberate ignorance of Guidelines and Policies. I am being accused of not being willing to work collaboratively and unreasonable "ownership" style behaviour concerning the page Clarawood. As I have previously argued in the AfD, talk pages and the Deletion Review this is not the case and there are very substantial references on the page and I have encouraged and asked for any problems others have with it to discuss them particularly on the talk page. The edit by CDRL102 demonstrates the importance of this as they were factually wrong. I have also been accused of reverting every edit anyone makes. This is also quite simply not true, but I have reverted non-constructive edits and explained why I did so. I have followed process in anything I have done here, I have not deleted other people's comments or blankly edited fully referenced material and I have not acted outside normal process and policy. Davey2010 however has done these things and I feel that it would be pointless and impossible to have a rational discussion with him on his talk page which is why I am raising this ANI instead. I have no problem with constructive edits to any page, that is what a collaborative encyclopaedia is about, however I think I am entirely correct when I say that edits must actually be constructive and based on fact and if they are not then it is fair to revert them. I think I am also entirely correct to say that Davey2010's behaviour has not been perfect and I hope this can be looked into Clarawood123 (talk) 13:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

If he tried to do anything to improve that article, then more power to him! _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 13:43, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• TL;DR - Yep I gave them a strong warning as they've heavily been trying to "promote" the article and clearly do have OWNership issues with it,

Yep I've wiped their article talkpage posts as it was more or less moans over reverts and some were unrelated to the article - I never ever do this however in this case filling the talkpage up with crap isn't ideal either -Most of it belonged on a user talkpage,

Yep I did move the article to a sandbox as CDRL was more than happy to work on it although it was reverted by Sandstein as there wasn't really any consensus at DRV for my actions,

So all in all I believe my actions overall have been okay and the only person that should be blocked is Clarawood123 for their huge amounts of disruption not only on the article but also on the DRV and the AFD. –Davey2010^Talk 14:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oh and I'm not an admin ..... thank the lord , –Davey2010^Talk 14:26, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I tried to edit this page, most of my edits were reverted. It was then userfied to me to improve the quality, once it was put back into Clarawood, User:Clarawood123 deleted my revision and copied and pasted his last edited revision before it was userfied. Since then, I didn't try to restore some of my improvements as I'm not going to waste my time and have it reverted again, although I did try to edit the opening paragraph, which surprise surprise was reverted. So User:Clarawood123 seems to have an Ownership Issue. CDRL102 (talk) 15:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposed ban/WP:BOOMERANG of Clarawood123

It's pretty obvious that User:Clarawood123 has an WP:Ownership problem (I'd also point out that they're a WP:SPA and most probably have a WP:COI). I suggest this be boomeranged back to them with either a straight ban or at least a topic ban with a forced name change.142.105.159.60 (talk) 16:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support topic ban or ban as proposer. 142.105.159.60 (talk) 16:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support either, as per the WP:OWN issue- also noting the sheer amount of different editors' time and effort that s/he has wasted, which could have been spent doing better things. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 16:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support - Many editors are trying to improve the article and they're simply reverting everyone and everything, Personally I don't think even a long block would change their ways so personally think they should be indeffed, Thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 18:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support site ban - ownership and competence issues are transparent. Not welcome here. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 18:20, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - I think going right to site ban is over the top. Perhaps a 6 month topic ban, to give this editor an opportunity to demonstrate they can learn the site's editing guidelines and contribute effectively to other areas of the project. Either we gain a productive editor, or they blow it and then they get a site ban. - ^theWOLFchild 20:52, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment, on this wiki please log in for a support/oppose-statement, it simplifies the evaluation for counters (of course it's anyway no vote.) –Be..anyone (talk) 21:02, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

*Support a Topicban I notice the article is named Clarawood and that the user is named Clarawood123. With the ownership issue this is rather striking. While I can't say there's exactly a COI but their connection to Clarawood does seems likely to be apart of the reason for their disruption.With an indef topic ban they can build up other contributions outside of their single purpose and in 6 months they can appeal.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

oppose as @HyperGaruda: points out Clarawood123 does seem to be mindful of the ownership issue and can be expected to take that into account in the future. They are a new user and should be given the opportunity to correct course. In the event they do not they can be banned accordingly later. As opposed to banning her some more experienced editors can step in and assist in the article such as by fixing the article or tagging an issue with it.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:18, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Extremely strong oppose on the following grounds: a site ban is overkill; this proposal is brought forth by someone who either doesn't want to take responsibility for their Wikipedia edits and activity by registering an account or they are a sockpuppet. I'm very uncomfortable giving this proposal any credence based on the fact that the IP proposer could be anyone who has edited here previously under an account or another IP and is currently blocked or are IP hopping or just playing games. And just for the record: the account we being discussed here for some kind of sanction/ban is way too new for anyone to be calling for a site ban, topic ban, and saying they aren't welcome in Wikipedia. WP:BITE immediately comes to mind. Clarawood123 HAS less than 80 edits at this writing. Some folks just don't get Wikipedia at first and mistake it for something other than an encyclopedia project that has extensive rules, guidelines, policies, and the like. To some, it's just an online site where they can add some stuff rather than actually seeing the bigger, more serious picture. What should happen is someone very experienced and/or very patient needs to volunteer to mentor this individual, put them in the right direction, give them sound advice, and get them editing productively, not set them up to create another account and get into the sockpuppet death-spiral. Which is what will happen if they are site-banned or topic-banned. This is a bad proposal and it's a bad precedent to allow an anon-IP to suggest such a strong move and editors going along with this should seriously rethink their agreement with the proposal, in my opinion. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I share your concern with this IP. The major thing really is that the ownership issues cease.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:41, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for assuming good faith, guys. If you had checked my contribs, you'd have seen that I've been on this IP for a while. As for my proposal: here we have a blatant promotional account who is trying to force their own POV on an article, without and against consensus, and you're proposing we treat them like any other account 142.105.159.60 (talk) 15:39, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

You've been here with this current IP only since January 2016, from what I can see. My concerns are well spelled out and I don't think they are unreasonable. And yes, I do think we should treat them like "any other account" -- something they are and something you are not. If you want to be taken seriously in situations such as this, my suggestion is you also get an account. I'm sure there are admins and other editors who will disagree, however, I am just as certain there are admins and other editors who would agree. It's no big deal to have an account, after all. Why not create one? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:04, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Because... it's none of your our business? _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 16:06, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Should this point be forced? No. Is it our business as a community when an IP is looking to have a newbie permanently banned from editing? I think it is. I've said what I had to say, and am fine dropping the issue of this IP not having an account from here on. But I won't keep silent over a permaban proposal when I don't think it's warranted. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:09, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Comment I would like to thank the various participants for their advice and guidance. It seems that I am being portrayed as someone who simply just reverts everything for the sake of it because I am new and unwilling to learn. This is not the truth. It also seems that those who have supported this position have taken others' comments at face value and have not checked into the history of any edits or reversions I have done or the comments I made to support those. At present following the latest edits to the Clarawood page by various editors over the last day or so it is in a state where it is factually innaccurate from the very first line of the infobox, is misreferenced throughout and is in breach of copyright as legally required statements for the attribution of multiple references have been deleted. I am not going to edit it or revert it as I will only be accused - as I have been already - of ownership etc...all I can say is that if correcting mistakes, ensuring information is factual and ensuring that material is referenced is wrong then I am happy to be wrong. Hopefully someone with a bit of sense and gravitas will look into this Clarawood123 (talk) 09:24, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Clarawood123, if you have identified material currently on the page that is a copyright violation, it's pretty important that you identify that content, because it needs to be removed.

Otherwise, some general comments:

• Although multiple people have been involved in edit skirmishes on the article, as well as the AfD, attempts to have any discussion at all on the article talk have been weak sauce at best, and not always been done with the best tone, on multiple sides. For example, CDRL102's remark "you're incabable, that's all", is sure to lead to productive discourse, and not at all escalate tensions.
• Davey2010's behavior also leaves much to be desired, such as not blanking discussion on the article talk with such helpful summaries as "Stop filling the talkpage with moans" (please see WP:NPA and WP:TPO), not to mention giving a final warning as a first warning on Clarawood123's user talk, and threatening indef, which is clearly not a thinly veiled "fuck you".
• I am very suspicious of a ban proposal by an IP, especially after four comments, three of which were made by the two above referenced editors.
• To their credit HyperGaruda has made a commendable effort and others should follow their example.

So overall, oppose ban, support not WP:BITEing, recommend certain editors take a few moments of serious self-examination. TimothyJosephWood 18:00, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I admit I could've discussed it better with them but overall my behaviour was absolutely fine, They deserved a warning months ago however I left off the warnings in the hope they'd get the hint .... which they didnt hence the final...., I stated above on why I removed their talkpage comments and my edit summaries wasn't a personal attack, Ofcourse because you're absolutely perfect and haven't ever made a mistake in your life have you ? .... –Davey2010^Talk 18:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Clearly six minutes wasn't enough personal reflection time. Your actions have not been absolutely fine, and saying that they were is not a justification. TimothyJosephWood 18:25, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I called the User 'incapable' after they again reverted one of my edits, which has been fixed by another editor since. CDRL102 (talk) 19:30, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I find in my travels through life, that insulting people is generally not an effective communication technique. TimothyJosephWood 20:07, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. Well, that escalated quickly. Taking into account how new Clarawood123 is, you could be a little more considerate. From their comment above, it appears that the you do not own Wikipedia pages message has finally sunk in. Perhaps it is best if someone experienced in the Wiki-MoS checks and old version of Clarawood, such as this one, tagging problems as they go through the page (don't forget to save it to a sandbox), like I did in one section. That way, Clarawood123 can learn what exactly is wrong/unwikipedic, instead of being flooded by vague comments that the article has problems somewhere at an unspecified location. - HyperGaruda (talk) 17:53, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support site ban - I tried to talk with this user and they are 100% committed to the view everything they have done is fine and everyone else has done wrong, and cannot see their COI. They have resisted all efforts at dialogue to reach consensus (not just with me, but from day 1); this stance toward the community has been and is disruptive and won't stop being disruptive; they have no place here. Jytdog (talk) 18:20, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support site ban - per JYT, and actions smack of WP:TEND. Clearly not here to contribute cooperatively. Toddst1 (talk) 19:27, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support - editor has demonstrated an incapability to talk about their editing stances without some way incorporating their commentary/opinion of an editor to it. This is not a battleground. Based on the information that's relayed, Ciarawood123's condescending and ownership attitudes isn't helping anything to resolve anything. Proceeding to start massive discussions so to talk about another editor rather than just make the discussion about what it is about the article they have a problem with is not how to start an article talk page discussion or otherwise seek consensus. It also doesn't help that he edit wars and fights when others challenge him and only trying to get his way. I am not familiar with the subject area and do not make an opinion on anyone's edits at hand, but we don't always have to know which is the right version of an article to know whether an editors perception of collaboration is the correct one. Its about working with others to achieve the one goal to build an encyclopedia, not treating others as opponents when they disagree with you. Its detracting from our goals when we have people on this project that don't seem to know what collaboration and working with others truly means. —Mythdon 07:39, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Response In reply to the last few commenters - a simple search through and perusal of the entire correspondence relating to the page Clarawood, including those comments and talk page sections which have been deleted by other editors - in my view deliberately as part of their campaign to portray me as something I am not - will demonstrate fully that my focus has been on the content of the page and the quality of the information and referencing on it. When some editors have stated that they tried to improve the page but I just reverted as usual, this portays me as a disruptive and non-collaborative editor with ownership issues. But this is not the truth as I have been saying for some time now and which is the reason I raised this ANI. I will offer an analogy. If any of the editors above had created and written a page and then I came on and made edits which left it demonstrably factually wrong would they be justified in reverting those edits? I think they would. Further, if, despite having explained exactly why they reverted, they were then accused of ownership, bias and disruption would this be true? The answer is it would not. As I have previously urged people to do, please do not participate in this without fully looking at the facts and without being completely and utterly honest. The reality is that a number of those involved have not been honest, are guilty themselves of the things they are accusing me of - and worse - and when others with more rational minds have tried to highlight this to them they have blanked it and indeed acted arrogantly and rudely. I have attempted to keep my arguments and comments civil and rational and on key. I have had to defend myself against other editors which is why I have had to mention them. It was me who was the person focussing on content in the first place. As I stated above the article is now in breach of copyright, seriously misreferenced from the first line and factually wrong from the first line. This is because in their haste to make me out to be a fool and defend their friends the editors concerned have acted irrationally and rashly and frankly do not have knowledge of the subject they were dealing with. Pointing this out does not make me disruptive, it does not mean I am moaning, it does not mean I am unwilling to collaborate, it does not mean I cannot self reflect or that I have a conflict of interest - it means that an article which was factual and fully referenced has been vandalised in a way which is a disgrace to Wikipedia. By those who are accusing others ie me of the same actions. I am getting rather sick of this ongoing nonsense myself and sick of constantly having to defend myself from people jumping on the bandwagon without checking their facts Clarawood123 (talk) 20:38, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Clarawood123, not a word you wrote there acknowledges that you have done anything wrong. As long as you maintain that stance, you are, in my view, going to be an endless source of disruption. Everyone is new, but most new editors do not cause this level of disruption, and most new editors are willing to listen and to learn. If you were self-aware and willing to learn, and not focused solely on blaming others, I would not be supporting a site ban. Jytdog (talk) 21:05, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose ban for now. Other editors' attempts to deal with the content and ownership issues have been as significant a cause of this situation. This discussion has brought it to a wider audience; the response from Clarawood123 has is not ideal but is understandable. More time is needed. Peter James (talk) 22:21, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support site ban - This user is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

RE: Disruptive Editor - Karst

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hello Administrator. I would like to report a Disruptive Editor I have had continuous problems with the user Karst, as have many other editors: User talk:Wkpe16, User talk:ZachDelRey, User talk:Nuro Dragonfly, User talk:Donottroll... He nominated my old userpage for deletion (Link) when I was drafting in it, instead of just politely informing me that this was against the guideines. More importantly, they frequently replace Up-to-date images for old ones, and deletes cited, valid content, both for no reason. This irritates many editors. Most recently, he caused an edit war on J. Ralph (if you'll please look at the revision history) with Eldorado74, who noticed that I had had trouble with Karst before, and came to me for help: "hello Limehous-0. I am hoping you can help me a problem I am having with the user Karst. I see that you have had major problems with this user as well on your articles. He keeps vandalizing the article on J. Ralph and removing valid info. The article is properly cited from valid external sources yet Karst continues to revert and change relevant, factual information that is properly sourced and cited. Can you help me?" Please see Karst's talk page and read my most recent attempt to politely tell him that he was annoying loads of editors. Also read the other editors posts. Please do not conclude this report is vengeance for my userpage. I make this report to help Eldorado74, and make Wikipedia a better place. Thankyou, and Kind Regards.Limehous-0 (talk) 17:26, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Is this another WP:SOC of Eldorado74 (talk · contribs)? Keith D (talk) 18:48, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi This isn't Sock Puppetry by Eldorado. When I used the CandidLibraryEditors Karst repeatedly disrupted my edits. Many other editors can confirm that he disrupts. See my report for their talk pages. Eldorado came to me for help. Karst is now "enlisting editors in an edit war against Eldorado on the article J. Ralph. I do think he needs to be sorted out. Thanks. Limehous-0 (talk) 19:06, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Funny how there's no post on your talk page from Eldorado74 about this issue. Also funny how he couldn't have emailed you because you haven't enabled email in your preferences. Katie^talk 19:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Definitely some fishy stuff going on. Limehous-0 is a new user with two lifetime edits to actual articles. Here they seem to be removing someone else's barnstar from Karst's talk. Here they add an entire months old conversation back to his talk, supposedly, because they wanted to add their own content. The sock is strong with this one. TimothyJosephWood 19:37, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi Timothy and Katie. If you'll look, on my userpage, A box says "you can find me on discogs too!". following the link, my Discogs profile shows my email. This is how Eldorado contacted me. Also note, my lack of contribs is because I used to use the account CandidLibraryEditors, but swapped; unaware I could have just changed the name. Sorry, but can we get to the matter in hand - Karst's disruptive beahavior! Limehous-0 (talk) 20:05, 11 April 2016 (UTC) Also note, my email uses "Limehouse" and my eBay and Discogs profiles both use "Limehous-0". a sock wouldn't have all this! Limehous-0 (talk) 20:07, 11 April 2016 (UTC) The long post including old content was me trying to talk to Karst and tell him how annoying he was. The old content was "proof". I removed his barnstar, because I no longer thinked he deserved it (and admin wasn't appropriate). Note, I was CandidLibraryEditors when I gave it too him. Limehous-0 (talk) 20:13, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Relevant COIN Thread TimothyJosephWood 20:24, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• It looks like both Karst and Eldorado74 have passed 3 reverts on J. Ralph so I have given them both warnings. It looks like Lemongirl942 has come on and is contributing to this article and what it really needs now is to have participation from other editors. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• I fully except the warning on the WP:3RR and will leave it to third party editors to work on the article, sincerely hoping the other party in the dispute will do so too. As indicated on the Talk page for J. Ralph, after failing to reach consensus, I sought mediation on resolving the issue (aware that the other party did not need to engage with it). At the suggestion of @Voceditenore: I lodged the issue at WP:COIN yesterday. I'm rather puzzled at the involvement of Limehous-0 who has never edited the article. I'm happy to respond to any other specific issues, but as no diffs have been given, I'm currently unable to do so. Karst (talk) 18:08, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

For my personal input and with my subsequent investigation of the proof given by the aggrieved party, can't find the specific part where Karst has been the editor who altered the page in question. It is by my viewing of the given link to be Skyerise that has changed the article last. I, without proof, am not going to condemn Karst for something that hasn't been shown, in specific proof via a link provided, to have been the guilty party. Nuro msg me 02:56, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Dood. Conciseness. U need 2 git u sum. TimothyJosephWood 00:03, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree. Please stick paragraph breaks in there and consider pruning your comment. Drmies (talk) 02:46, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I do, with the evidence presented hithertofor, and the agreement of all thus far concerned, retract my previous spurious accusations of robust argumentation. TimothyJosephWood 03:10, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Hello all. Just want to clarify here as well. I am not affiliated with Limehous-0 in any way whats ever. Today was the first time I contacted him/her as I am trying to get some help regarding the J. Ralph article. I have also reached out to Keith D previously for help as well. I certainly do not know the ins and outs of wikipedia as well as all of you nor all this lingo. I again state that I am only trying to create an accurate properly cited article that is fact based however impressive or "trivial" as Lemongirl942 has said certain things are. That is an opinion. I have left my opinion out of the article and only used the sources and facts themselves as the highlights. I would appreciate any help to resolve this. Eldorado74 (talk) 03:14, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

G'day - I will start by saying that there hasn't been a concise, clear, specific link to the part where Karst is proven to be altering anything. The only change to the article that was given was implicating Skyerise in the last change to the article. If you could provide the link to the specific part where Karst is doing so that would help us make some sort of opinion on the alleged disruptive behaviour. Nuro msg me 03:25, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Hello Nuro, if you look on the J. Ralph talk page you can see all the events between Karst and I. Again Karst continues to change the article to delete relevant properly cited material and add information that is not cited/correct. Eldorado74 (talk) 10:56, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment and Explanatory - G'day Eldorado74 - Firstly, I find it very strange that someone who has asked the help, and going into to bat on behalf of another editor, of the Adim and Mediation process (sort of, that's specifically another page) that doesn't have a User Page set up themselves (your name is in red). You might want to fix this.

To the question at hand.

Either you or L-0 or CLE (who are the same person) have asked for there to be some consensus on the behaviour of the long time editor Karst about the content issues that are on this J. Ralph person's WP Article.

#1 - My original response to the request to become involved was very long-winded and I edited it, but after your request for me to read the Talk Page, and I now have, I will state the basics behind Karst's 'oversight' of the article itself is nearly what I had to say myself.
#2 - I will support the efforts of Karst to get the point across that WP is not an Advertisement for any one, and this article is blatantly self promotional in the extreme as far as I'm concerned, and that's completely irrelevant of any protesting that 'its just the facts' Ma'am to quote the Blues Bros. The amount of times the words 'award winning' or 'Oscars' or 'world renowned' and various others in a multitude of mixing and matching them is, quite simply, not what is expected of a article for someone to come on the WP and find some relevant, Neutral, Unbiased, information to start to research an artist they are wanting to.
#3 - The entire article needs to be rewritten by who ever put it up or by someone who has some interest in the artist, as I've never heard of the person or any of the works he has done, which in itself is not relevant to the issue but I am stating as much as musician of over 25 years myself.
#4 - What Karst is trying to get through with his comments on the Talk Page are what is expected of any Senior Editor on the WP to keep free from such issue as the Copyright infringements that had been noted. This is a very serious matter I will stress.
#5 - You have claimed to be acting on behalf of another party, if I'm not mistaken, which in itself is unusual, in some ways, though not unheard of. I find the fact that there is Three (3) different parties with WP profiles attempting to claim the same stance in the manner it has been done quite suspicious. That's not slandering your name personally but if you've been on here long enough you learn how some people try to circumnavigate the rules.
#6 - Karst has put the effort in to educate the facts of the WP rules in the Talk Page, and I will state here that he (I think) and I did not get off on the right foot for similar reasons. But the learning process that I went through to understand the way things HAVE to be done around here has made that redundant now. The expectations of any person who wishes to Edit Articles is quite specific and quite high.
#7 - My summary of whether or not the 'Tone' or the written word of the Senior Editor has come across as being 'Nice' is to an extend also redundant. I don't like the attitudes of various Senior Editors that I have had to deal with on here for various reasons but that doesn't change the fact that the rules have to be followed, by us all, and there is a plethora of WP articles on how to go about your editing the WP.
#8 - If there is a specific point on how Karst has written his explanations, and responses to the issues raised, on the Talk Page, then that will need to be specifically outlined by you, then dissected by a Senior Moderator, which is not here, and that's after you request a Mediation process, which I'm afraid to say will most likely not happen, considering the way the article is written. If it gets rewritten, before it most likely, due to the scutiny it now has, gets AfD'ed for the content and Copyright infringements that have been raised, then you may have a case.

The unfortunate truth is that the article reads as an attempt at free advertising and that is not what WP is for. Nuro msg me 03:33, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Doesn't look like this is going anywhere other than a group therapy session for people Karst has reverted. Someone might want to look toward closing or redirecting the conversation toward something productive.

Also, "Just the facts" is Sgt Joe Friday, not the Blues Bros. TimothyJosephWood 17:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm assuming your not referring to me, as I was asked to give my thoughts on the matter, so I have done so, and for the record I have no issues with Karst.
I do agree that this is rather redundant and somewhat pointless though and should be moved. I also consider my input to be productive for the sake of neutral impartiality, and don't consider my effort to be a waste of my time, or to be treated as such by anyone...

And it was the Blues Brothers, when they go to the door of the lady who had two of the band living upstairs of her house, and its Elwood that says it, but I agree, as I have always assumed this was a piss-take (Aussie slang for mocking someone) of Sgt Joe Friday anyway. Nuro msg me 22:19, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Naw fam. That was the blue brothers making a reference to Dragnet. <3 TimothyJosephWood 00:22, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Ahh yes, thats it, Dragnet....both on tv here in Australia when I was a kid, but more my parents gen than mine. Nuro msg me 00:34, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User black washing the articles

The user 92.106.216.139 is continuously black washing the Kurdish women article. Edits of this user:
Diff [70]: This edit was a clearly against WP:POV.
Diff [71]: Wordpress --> [WP:FAKE].
Diff [72]: Reversed or edited 6 cherry pickings. Check the sources.
Diff [73]: The user changed Sorani speaking Kurds to all Kurds, Iraqi Arabs to all Arabs (Black washing).
A 2014 survey from UNICEF found a 58.5% prevalence of FGM in Iraqi Kurdistan.--> The source doesn't mention anything like that. The source is related to the small survey about two cities, not all Iraqi Kurdistan (Black washing).
Diff [74]: Read the source, it's clearly cherry picking.

The user has added only FGM, honor killing and other negative things to the article. The article is related to the Kurdish women but ~80% is about FGM, honor killing and other crimes. Also, according to another user, this users has involved in mass deletions of sourced contents, offensive edit summaries, disruptive editing and meatpuppetting.-->[75]Ferakp (talk) 22:09, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The disruptive behaviour of this user Ferakp has been reported previously: see this discussion at ANI and this conclusion

To summarize, just some of the many issues with this user

He deletes, removes and reverts information and sources that do not comply with his nationalist POV. Such deletions include well sourced information

He in particular does not tolerate that articles mention the women's rights situation and the violence against (Kurdish women). He also wants articles on LGBT Kurds and on Kurdish feminists deleted.

When information is added that goes against his nationalist POV, and he can't delete it, he very often editorializes it until it gives a completely different spin than the original

In these cases, he made many source misrepresentations, including some gross ones, which hurts the reputation of wikipedia, like modifying direct quotes from books

His excuses when challenged are that some random news articles contradict the information, or that is blackwashing, or Turkish propaganda

Because of his disruptive behaviour it has been impossible to write in these articles

Besides, his claim that violence against women is overrepresented at the Kurdish women article is baseless. Just two examples: Female Genital mutilation is nowhere else outside of Africa as widely practiced as in Iraqi Kurdistan, and the United Nations Assistance Mission for Iraq (UNAMI) has characterized "honor killings as a serious concern in Iraq, particularly in Iraqi Kurdistan". @Spacecowboy420: @EkoGraf: @Patetez: @Denizyildirim: @Opdire657: @Gala19000:@GGT: @Ottomanor:@Chickchick77:@SlimVirgin:@Shawn in Montreal:@ThePlatypusofDoom:@Snow Rise:@Shadow4dark:

PS. I won't have time to comment further until late Wednesday. --92.106.216.139 (talk) 22:37, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Since I was pinged, I'll just point out that Ferakp has stated on his user page that he has stopped editing Wikipedia. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:40, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Above Ferakp claims I was cherry picking because of this:

The original source reads: More or less silent on women an non-princely classes, it makes references to the women of the ruling landowning class, and their exclusion from public life and the exercise of state power. According to this source, the Kurds, following the Islamic tradition, took four wives and, if the could afford it, four maids or slave girls (jariyya). […] Daughters and sisters were given or exchanded in marriage as a means of settling wars and blood feuds. When one side was defeated, the victor took over the women of the enemy as booty and as proof of the humiliating defeat of the adversary. Although state power was execised only by males, Bidlisi mentions three women who, after losing their husbands, aussumed the reins of power in order to transfer it to their sons upon their adulthood.

Out of this, in the wikipedia article it only read until I corrected it: Sharaf ad-Din Bitlisi's 1597 Sharafnama mentions three Kurdish women assuming power in Kurdish principalities.

If THIS was not cherry picking, then what is?? --92.106.216.139 (talk) 22:53, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Besides, the roughly 58% percentage of FGM in Erbil is correct, and there are sources to it that Ferakp also deleted, see this article Female genital mutilation, from which article he wasn't able to delete the information, even though he tried. I could go on and on.--92.106.216.139 (talk) 23:00, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• I've no knowledge or particular interest in this area. I had noticed Ferakp before editing exclusively in the Kurdish/Turkish area. I only became involved because Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Houzan Mahmoud struck me somewhat suspect. Anyway, if he's truly resigned I suppose this discussion can be closed. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:10, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I bet that the user 92.106.216.139 is involved in meatpuppeting. I am 100% sure he is banned before because of his behavior and so fast response and just check the users he tagged, they are all pro-Turkish editors who I have warned about their WP:POV, WP:FAKE and WP:ORIGINAL edits. As I said, check his edits and the sources, they are clearly against WP rules. I have edited maybe thousands of times and it is normal that some are not happy because I found them black washing the article. Show one my edit and prove it that it is not allowed or wrong. I have explained them all using WP rules. Ferakp (talk) 23:49, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, I see that I have been notified. Ferakp has been involved in POV editing. I was patrolling pages marked as "Controversial" for vandalism, and I came across Ferakp. People have told him many times to not continue, but he just accused other editors of being pro-turkish, as he just did. I really don't have any bias on the subject, but it seems to me that Ferakp has been editing in an unhelpful way. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 11:28, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Topic ban for Ferakp

The conclusion of one of the last discussions was that this is getting close to a topic ban, and since then other veteran editors have reported his behaviour as WP:NOTHERE. This has been going on for too long, and he won't stop. I propose a topic ban for Ferakp. --92.106.216.139 (talk) 23:24, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

oppose From my experience, I would agree that Ferakp is not the easiest editor to deal with, however also from my experience, I have found that he is looking for neutrality and respects the ideas of discussion and compromise. At the end of the day, we had a few too many reverts (each) and then we found neutral ground, based on reliable sources and discussion. Yeah, I'm sure he has political feelings (as do many editors) and these feelings are reflected in his edits (same for most editors), but when treated with the respect and good faith than we all deserve, he was not disruptive and our discussions certainly resulted in an improved article. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:43, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Support Although I agree that Ferakp does try to have discussions and not be a troll, he has been disruptive. He has caused many editors to continuously edit the articles in question because of his POV editing. I think that a topic ban for a year or two would help the encyclopedia, and is what is needed for Ferakp. Even though he has stopped editing Wikipedia for now, It's probably a good idea to have this in place in case he decides to start editing. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 11:35, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Well, apparently Ferakp's resignation lasted all of 24 hours. I certainly have no opinion on whether he should be topic banned -- I don't know enough about his editing history, nor do I care to. I only became involved when I spotted this Afd, which didn't seem to me to be policy based and seemed more motivated by a battlefield mentality about any content related to mistreatment of women by Kurds. That's really why I waded in. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:19, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• I should also point -- to state the obvious -- that 92.106.216.139 and Ferakp have been embroiled in an editing dispute for some time: indeed Ferakp had tried to get the Kurdish women article page protected to stop 92.106.216.139's edits. So again while I don't know enough to pick sides, what we may have at this ANI is yet another installment in a dispute between two editors, and WP:Forum shopping across multiple pages in an attempt to lock in each one's preferred version of reality. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:30, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment You are all welcome to check my edit history word by word. Thousands of edits and only 8 disputes and in many of them I have reached consensus. You can clearly check all my disputes and you will realize that I never start any kind of "war" before I am 100% sure that my changes clearly removed or edited something which weren't true or against WP rules. I always use the talk page and explain my changes if another user is not happy with my changes. However, some users are not trying to reach consensus at all. I improved many 92.106.216.139 edits, I edited them to according to their sources even though it was clear that he was cherry picking. However, he didn't stop it, he still continues it. That's why I wanted administrator or admin to lock the article. @ThePlatypusofDoom:: If you think I am disruptive editor, prove it. Whether I get topic ban or permanent ban, I don't care because I am not editing anymore: Only fixing and adding sources and of course I am just trying to stop disruptive editors. Ferakp (talk) 16:23, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment I think you are trying to do the right thing, but personally, I agree with 92.106.16.139. Kurdish women are treated terribly, and it is still a very major problem in the world today. It is very, very widespread, and the reason that a good 70% of the article is devoted to this is because of that. You shouldn't let this stop you from editing, but you may want to back off. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 19:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• I do think that this ANI should be closed. This is not to be the forum to resolve this, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:30, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Agreed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThePlatypusofDoom (talk • contribs) 23:14, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Closing of this incident report

As Shawn in Montreal and I feel, this should be closed or moved to a different page. I propose a move or a close of this report. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 23:18, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Incivility problems in Talk:Third-party evidence for Apollo Moon landings

I have created this proposal to change the title of the article Third-party evidence for Apollo Moon landings, which is very clearly incorrect. My proposal has met very strong opposition from several users, who have engaged in uncivil behaviour. I have asked them in several occassions to change their behaviour, but they have continued behaving in the same way. I posted a list of the policies and guidelines they are breaking , but they ignored this as well.

This is a list of the editors involved and a summary of their misbehaviour:

• LouScheffer: I asked him to clarify his argument, but he ignored my request for three months. When he finally answered, I showed the weakness of his argument[76]. After that he ignored me again.
• Bubba73: I asked him three times to clarify his argument, but he ignored my request. Rather than answering, he wrote several comments which are irrelevant or off-topic.
• VQuakr: He said he agrees with LouScheffer. I requested the same clarification I had previously requested from LouScheffer, but he ignored my request.[77]
• Dr. K.: He accused me of disruptive editing by “Failure or refusal to ‘get the point’” after my requests for clarifications had been repeatedly ignored. He suggested that he and the other editors don’t need to follow those rules.

These are very experienced editors. It might be worth noting that all except Bubba73 have a history of complaints in their user pages for breaching Wikipedia regulations. In the case of VQuakr, the list is huge.

Elendaíl (talk) 00:33, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Reply I think that the talk page speaks for itself. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:03, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Additional comment One of the other named editors invited him to make a formal request for a move (WP:RM) - more than once, I think. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:10, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) Actually three times. first, second, third. Ironically, the OP got exactly the same advice as I gave him/her when, following our discussion, he went to editor assistance and thanked the editor who gave him the same advice as I did. Dr. K. 01:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
    • Make that four times. VQuakr had actually beat me to the punch. He advised the OP first about requesting a move through WP:RM. Dr. K. 07:28, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
  • More On April 8 the editor came back, asking about his proposed name change from January. I asked "What do you want to rename it to?" Rather than simply state what he wanted to name it, he replied "I wrote my proposal above (16:50, 17 January 2016). I'm afraid that once again I fail to see the relation of what you say with my proposal. Also, I would appreciate it if you would take a few minutes to answer my questions above." wanting me to wade back through all of that mess to find his proposed name. I did that. He accuses me of not replying to him - I stopped because I think he is a troll. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:31, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
    • The OP is clearly an inexperienced editor with only 64 edits. The problem starts when, despite his inexperience, he seems quite adept at choosing to investigate and report four experienced editors to ANI rather than follow repeated good advice about using the simple process of WP:RM. Dr. K. 08:00, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• @Elendaíl: How do you imagine a discussion might be conducted when one editor has been wrestling with several others since 6 January 2016 regarding an unclear proposal at Talk:Third-party evidence for Apollo Moon landings#Proposal to rename the article? The fact that people disagree with them might cause some to find another article to work on—it is not uncivil to disagree, and it is not uncivil to comment in a forthright manner, particularly after three months. Not commenting is not uncivil. Johnuniq (talk) 01:05, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Disagreement with and lack of interest in pursuing your rather nebulous proposal is not incivility. No administrative action is requested or warranted for what is clearly a content dispute, where consensus is running against you. Acroterion (talk) 01:09, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Totally uninvolved and never will be. OP is engaging in WP:BATTLEGROUND by the act of filing this report. IMO, this thread should be closed now by an admin with a clear directive to either file an WP:RM immediately, back away from the article or face a block for disruption. I have seen worse examples of WP:WIKILAWYERING and WP:IDHT, but not many. John from Idegon (talk) 01:24, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Notified of discussion here. I suggest that the participants here remember that Elendaíl is quite new; this may be their first time encountering editors that disagree with them and managing disagreement can be a challenging thing on Wikipedia. I see also that over at WP:EAR, @TransporterMan: suggested that they take behavioral concerns here; again knowing that Elendaíl it might be difficult for him or her to differentiate between behavior and content. I disagree with the assessment of Elendaíl as a troll; I think they are a good-faith editor that needs some guiding. Maybe a good candidate for adoption? @Worm That Turned: I generally associate you with mentorship. Any thoughts here? VQuakr (talk) 01:47, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Does Elendail believe that the Apollo landings did not happen? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:22, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I couldn't point to a diff that indicates that is the case. VQuakr (talk) 07:52, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I do not think that he has expressed that. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 15:43, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I am appalled. Bubba73, a user listed in the top 1000 contributors list of Wikipedia, has said that I am a troll. In an ANI about incivility! I would certainly expect him to know better than that. I request immediate administrator action. Elendaíl (talk) 19:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Bubba73 is a very civil editor with no complaints about his civility. You said so yourself: It might be worth noting that all except Bubba73 have a history of complaints in their user pages for breaching Wikipedia regulations. He just expressed his thoughts given your wikilawyering and failure to acknowledge the valid points of four experienced editors who were in good-faith trying to advise you since last January to request a move through WP:RM, advice which you blithely ignored multiple times. That he got a bit frustrated is completely understandable. I think that if there is any admin action needed here it has to be applied to your continuing disruption calling for unwarranted action against good faith editors for no reason. Dr. K. 20:13, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Elendail, Bubba did not call you a troll. Bubba said that they quit discussing because they thought you were a troll. Bubba was explaining why they stopped discussing. And they are entitled to their opinion. -- GB fan 01:07, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

That is why I quit. Some others continued the discussion. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:50, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Elendail also has a lovely post about being called a troll on ANI over at the Teahouse (link). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:37, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 22:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Bubba73: "I think he is a troll". "Uninvolved" editor: "Bubba did not call you a troll". Wow! I mean, seriously, WOW! You guys are amazing. You have greatly surpassed all the expectations I had when I started this. Thank you so much. Elendaíl (talk) 14:30, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Bubba73: "I think he is a troll". "Uninvolved" editor: "Bubba did not call you a troll". Wow! I mean, seriously, WOW! You guys are amazing. You have greatly surpassed all the expectations I had when I started this. Thank you so much. Elendaíl (talk) 14:30, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Wow, this gets better every day. Now it turns out that GB Fan, my beloved uninvolved editor, didn't say "Bubba did not call you a troll". Except, unfortunately, this diff says he did. And that's not the best. The best is there is no diff showing he changed "Elendail, Bubba did not call you a troll" to "Elendail, I think he is a troll". The history entry magically disappeared. Just like the history entry of the mysterious editor who called me a vandal (see the Teahouse discussion). Except this time I do have evidence, that is. I mean, seriously, guys, this is not fair. This is worse than the most addictive videogame. I have so much to do and I promised myself I wouldn't spend more time here. But you keep raising the bar and making this more exciting all the time. You're irresistible! Elendaíl (talk) 15:03, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

The best is there is no diff showing he changed "Elendail, Bubba did not call you a troll" to "Elendail, I think he is a troll". The history entry magically disappeared. No it did not. You changed the comment by GB fan. Dr. K.

And I have reverted my comment back to the original. -- GB fan 15:25, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

We had an edit conflict while I was trying to restore it. :) Dr. K. 15:27, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Oops, my bad. Such a shame. So anticlimactic. For a while I thought this was getting even more interesting. My real life will be happy about it, though. Anyway, thank you all. Elendaíl (talk) 15:40, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

You mean you cannot recall your own actions? Dr. K. 15:45, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Almost. To be precise, I mean I was editing in three or four tabs at the same time and I copy/pasted the wrong text in the wrong place. I guess it never happened to anyone before me. Elendaíl (talk) 15:53, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal

Due to egregious WP:IDHT, hectoring, forum shopping and sundry other disputatious behaviour, I propose a six month topic ban for Elendaíl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) from articles relating to the moon landing hoax, broadly construed. Guy (Help!) 14:15, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support especially in light of the Teahouse thread. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:37, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support Per above. Editor has paranoia issues. --Tarage (talk) 18:21, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose at this time; WP:ROPE - editor seems to have indicated that they intend to stop the behavior per [78]. Closing admin is invited to ignore this !vote if editor subsequently resumes disruption. VQuakr (talk) 19:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Welp, that made it easy. Indef per [79]. VQuakr (talk) 03:15, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment This editor needs more than a temporary topic ban from moon-landing conspiracy theories. He keeps alleging that "history entries magically disappear" and comments are altered while the latest "magic" comment alteration was done by him. Please see my comment. At a minimum we have serious WP:CIR issues. Dr. K. 15:39, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Nooooooo! Please, I'm begging you here. Don't be mean. Don't make this even more interesting. I REALLY, REALLY have so much to do! Elendaíl (talk) 15:53, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support also support a general ban after this: [80]. Dr. K is right here.142.105.159.60 (talk) 16:52, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support. I was on the fence, thinking Elendial was just perhaps a new editor, but modifying someone else's comments, then complaining about them on a incivility basis, is way, way beyond the pale. This is not something that happens by accident, no matter how many browser windows you have open. LouScheffer (talk) 18:27, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support The simple fact that they blatantly re-edited another user's comments, claimed to then say the user said the altered comments, then plays the "oh I had open browser windows" line is either elaborate trolling (and yes I'll use that term), pure incompetence, or deliberate disruption. A topic ban might not be enough if this type of behavior keeps up. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:31, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support An indef, now. We'll be back here in 6 months any way, why not nip it in the bud. It's obvious we're just getting trolled now. Blackmane (talk) 02:57, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support indef block per Dr.K. ansh666 03:46, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Whitewashing of Swami Premananda (guru) article

The article Swami Premananda (guru) has suffered from repeated vandalism and whitewashing attempts since its creation. I cleaned up the article and added it to my watchlist in 2013. Since then I have been reverting disruptive edits on the page. Most of the editors are unregistered but some have accounts. The editors try to remove any mention of his crime, or write that he was innocent and was wrongly convicted. These editors frequently use the same set of dubious sources:

• Justice For Premananda and other such sites/blogs.
• Articles published by Share International, a religious organisation.
• A particular book called "The DNA Detectives", which they claim is written by a "world's top genetics experts, Dr. Wilson J. Wall". They claim that he had personally handled the case. But I only found he has briefly written about it in his book "Forensic Science in Court", which has been added to the article. Other sources don't mention him.

More recently, editor Rishi Mano (talk · contribs) has been reverting my edits and adding self-promo material.

• Diff 1 - Reverted my edits.
• Diff 2 - Added claims from unreliable sources. He wrote, "Earlier in his life, In 1969 while he was addressing some 200 people who had gathered to listen, his body began to glow and an ochre-coloured robe suddenly seemed to descend onto him." Without any citation.
• Diff 3 - Inserted promotional edits like "Many volunteers and spiritual seekers live and provide their selfless service in the ashram. The ashram has centers in many countries including the UK, Switzerland, Belgium, France, Poland, Argentina, Ivory Coast, France, Italy, Mexico, Spain, USA, the Netherlands and Sri Lanka." Without any citations.
• On the talkpage, he replied to my comment about using blogs as sources by saying, "Again I find a book quoted, and any privately published book is not better than a blog."
• On the talkpage, he has also written, "Now a days we should not believe everything that media tells us".

Another editor Doughnutgirl (talk · contribs) has been engaging in similar edits since 2010. She exclusively edits only this article.

• Diff1 - Removed everything about DNA evidence.
• Diff2 - Added claims from the "The DNA Detectives" by Dr. Wilson J. Wall.
• Tried to hurriedly push through the Draft:Wilson J Wall but was rejected.

I formally request protection for the article from all unregistered editors and these two particular editors to be barred from editing this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kenfyre (talk • contribs) 08:10, 12 April 2016‎ (UTC)

Protection is not intended to help someone preserve a preferred version in a content dispute. I have no opinion of the promotional material or general disupute, but the book by Wilson Wall is reliable and pertinent and should be included. The authors of reliable sources don't need to have Wikipedia articles for their publication to be considered a reliable source. GigglesnortHotel (talk) 17:43, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Adequately protecting articles from the kind of Israel supporters who threaten to rape and kill

A number of requests for article protection were submitted yesterday. They were declined with what I think was questionable advice for the requesting editor, @Huldra:, to warn the IP. The various editors who receive death threats and threats of physical or sexual violence from Israel supporters should probably not be advised to contact their abusers, but that's another story. I have requested protection again here because in the WP:ARBPIA topic area inadequate protection has predictable consequences e.g. [81][82] (threats suppressed). I'm posting at ANI in the hope it gets the attention it deserves so that at least some articles+editors receive better protection. In ARBPIA, the 30/500 rule is and will continue to be enforced, regardless of whether an article has extended confirmed protection. If the 30/500 rule is not enforced by the server, then it will be enforced by people spending time performing a task that can be more efficiently and effectively performed by a machine. Editors who enforce the 30/500 rule are exposed to the worst Wikipedia has to offer. The ARBCOM authorized 30/500 rule is going to be enforced in ARBPIA either way so please let the server deal with the crazies. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:01, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

If we don't allow legal threats, why do we not treat physical threats similarly? _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 10:17, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

They are treated similarly in terms of blocking despite their very profound differences. This something that perhaps Hulda is more likely to have an informed opinion about than me, having had discussions with the legal people I believe. Threats are normally interleaved with the usual ethno-nationalist POV pushing disruption that is common in ARBPIA for accounts/IPs that do not meet the 30/500 requirement. Admins do a good job blocking IPs and suppressing threats. But again, the server can already make that unnecessary via extended confirmed protection. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

For everyone else's ease of access, the pages in question are:

• Mobile, Alabama - which only connects to the issue in a single line (sister cities), but was previously protected for a year over this issue.
• Ariel University - which was previously protected for a year because of vandalism (which I get the impression has to do with this), and which has a notice on its talk page regarding ARBPIA3
• Talk:Hamat Gader - which has a notice at the top regarding ARBPIA3
• Talk:Canada Park - which has a notice at the top regarding ARBPIA3
• Talk:Two-state solution - which I've already protected, because that should've been protected the second ARBPIA was passed.

I was hesitant to protect them (and am still arguing with myself about shortening the Mobile AL one, or just putting a hidden note explaining ARBPIA3 between every single letter of the one line related to the conflict), and have italicized my reasons for protecting them. If someone shortens or undoes the protection, I'm not going to wheel war.

I was on the fence, and rather than post about how I sympathize, I figured it'd be better to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:43, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. There is apparently a discussion at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions#Extended_confirmed_protection_and_arbitration_enforcement that I haven't read yet but assume is relevant. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:53, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I think I've glanced it over before. An' holuh shi', wuz Ah realluh thuh one da applah tha' pertecshun ta "Two-state solution"? Ah'm ol fer cuttin' admins slack ol thuh tahm, b'cos we gaht laves 'n' stuff, bud'if tha' ball 'ad bin drop't inee 'arder it'd'a wip't aht thuh dinasores. Ian.thomson (talk) 11:08, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Southern American English sounds like a contradiction in terms _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 11:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

The scary thing is the Bard's actors would've spoken something similar. Ian.thomson (talk) 11:40, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Ah... the Great Vowel Shift, of course? _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 12:20, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

This isn't an Israel supporter. It's Grawp. 172.56.36.137 (talk) 12:45, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

The edits are indistinguishable from those of an racist ultra-nationalist Israel supporter. They are also characteristic of Grawp or a Grawp-like sock. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:53, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Seems to me like you, yourself are pretty racist.142.105.159.60 (talk) 15:54, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

If you want to believe that, go ahead. I don't care and it won't change anything. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:39, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

This is not "our old friend", this is the Telstra, Australia-sock, which I first became aware of at AN/I, August/Sept., 2015. User:Drmies asked me to collect some of the IPs in order to see if he "qualified" for a WP:LTA-page. I did that here: User:Huldra/Telstra-socks. Besides Telstra, Australia-IPs, I believe the same user uses Optus, Australia-IPs, like here. And they typically stand for opinions which are to the right of the Israeli government; typically they say that places on the occupied West Bank are "in Israel", a view which is not supported by the Israeli government, only by the extreme right-wing Israel supporters. For a start: I believe Ariel (city), (on the occupied West Bank) and its University, and its "sister-cities", all have to be permanently protected: they have been favourite targets for years. Huldra (talk) 14:49, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I had not yet read ANI this afternoon when I took two of these RFPP reports, the two for the talk pages of Canada Park and Two-state solution. I increased Ian's regular semi-protection to extended-confirmed protection. I have not looked at the other three pages but I'll say right now that I don't believe the Mobile article qualifies for it. If someone wants to take the protection back down, I won't object. Katie^talk 19:34, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Okay, I'll ask the obvious question: What does Mobile, Alabama have to do with Arab-Israeli conflict? Why would this level and kind of protection even apply to an Alabaman city? I can see there is edit-warring going on in the article but it is ridiculous to argue that Mobile, Alabama is an article that is concerned with the Arab-Israeli conflict and covered by 30/500. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:41, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Liz....because Mobile, Alabama is sister city with Ariel (city)...an Israeli settlement on the Israeli-occupied West Bank. Certain editors have tried for years to have it say that Ariel (city) is in "Israel". It is the same problem for Heredia, Costa Rica; also a sister city of Ariel. (Yeah, I know: it is crazy to protect a 140 K article just because of -one- sentence, but heck, what else its there to do?) Huldra (talk) 21:48, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I saw that Mobile had an Israeli sister city but that one note in a long article doesn't justify saying that the article involves the Arab-Israeli conflict. If there is edit-warring or vandalism going on, semi-protect the article. Same goes for Heredia, Costa Rica.

Given that invoking 30/500 usually results in a permanent state of protection that prevents any editing by IP accounts, I think we should be conservative when applying it, only when the articles/pages are clearly covered by the stated topic area mentioned by ArbCom or admins at AE. We can't have every edit-war over an sentence concerning Israel result in 30/500 protection when the article is clearly not about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:56, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I thought that semi-protecting also stopped IP-editing? Huldra (talk) 22:03, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Observation: Eh...regardless of the edit-summary attached to the protection, I'm fairly sure it's actually just plain semi-protected. "12:39, 12 April 2016 Ian.thomson (talk | contribs) changed protection level for Mobile, Alabama [Edit=Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access] (indefinite) [Move=Require administrator access] (indefinite)". That, or the difference between semi-protection and extended-confirmed protection can't be seen from the logs (if so, that's something that should be fixed...) AddWittyNameHere (talk) 22:05, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, extended-confirmed protection is visible in the logs. The Mobile article is only semi-protected; look at the protection log for Talk:Canada Park and you'll see the difference. Katie^talk 22:25, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Btw, I´m fine with having "only" semi-protection on most of these articles. Most bad "new" editors, *if* they can edit semi-protected pages, then they do not go for any articles. Instead they go for one of the editors who edits in the area, and who have their user-pages semi-protected (like both Sean.hoyland and myself, and virtually everyone else who is not considered pro-Israeli enough). Apparently it is even more fun, telling us how we will be murdered, than making edits like "Ariel is in Israel"..... Huldra (talk) 22:48, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

You will never stop us. Ariel, Israel is a city you can never take! 49.188.4.238 (talk) 23:48, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Please block the above Optus, Australia-IP ASAP; thanks, Huldra (talk) 23:55, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Huldra, the account has been blocked. The difference I see between 30/500 and semi-protection is that I haven't seen an article with 30/500 protection had that protection lifted. It seems to be a permanent state. Theoretically, it doesn't need to be indefinite but in practice I don't see expiration dates. With most pages with semi-protection, it is only applied for a few days, a week or a month. It is not usually indefinite. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Oops, my bad on semi- instead of 30/500. Meant to do the latter. Been a touch sick the past couple of days (still don't have my voice back). Ian.thomson (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:03, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Oh you will never stop us! Blah blah blah. Yes, that's a lot of words over Mobile, and rather than argue that this troll has made Mobile, Alabama, part of the Arab-Israeli conflict, I applied regular semi-protection. Because the troll is still also just a troll, so semi-protection is valid to begin with. I'm not a big fan of this 30/500 thing but hey, it's there, and it's templated, so why not. I just applied 30/500 protection to an article for six months. Protection needs to be applied to articles that need protection for as long as they need protection, which isn't necessarily indefinitely. Drmies (talk) 03:27, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

For the record, if you check my request, I requested indefinite semi-protection for the Mobile article rather than 30/500 in an attempt to avoid this kind of discussion about that article. While it's true that this is also just a troll, it is a troll engaged what is, in principal at least, criminal behavior with a maximum prison sentence of 10 years in Victoria state facilitated by the Wikimedia Foundation's infrastructure and a failure to protect content and editors from racist ultra-nationalist Israel supporters like this one. Since far-right racism+ultra-nationalism are almost mainstream in Israel nowadays the situation is likely to get worse rather than better in terms of exposure to and abuse by this kind of pro-Israel, pro-settlement extremist. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:53, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

That sounds a lot like a legal threat. I don't think it actually counts as one, but it's definitely meant to have a chilling effect on this.

I'd also like to address your problematic language. You obviously have an axe to grind, and I don't think you should be editing Israel-related articles.142.105.159.60 (talk) 00:55, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Creating an edit filter for the American and Costa Rican cities simply to prevent the IPs particular additions would be a fairly trivial task? The articles could be unprotected then. Laura Jamieson (talk) 07:25, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for blocking 49.188.4.238, however 121.219.241.132 just continued. Some of the articles that IP touched also needs protection, I suspect. Deir Yassin massacre is already protected, but the others are not.

Also, is User:Huldra/Telstra-socks soon "qualified" for a WP:LTA-page? It would help when reporting vandalism, I suspect. (Hopefully they will grow up...eventually....)

And I have no idea if it is possible just to create an edit filter for the American and Costa Rican cities, and if that would work. Does anyone know? Huldra (talk) 22:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Persistent disruptive editing

Despite multiple warnings, 97.95.12.163 refuses to stop making disruptive edits. The user is an obvious sock puppet of 96.35.115.44. The user pretty much just changed his or her IP addresses after getting blocked multiple times just so they could continue doing what they were doing.

The user's disruptive editing includes unsourced changes, no edit summaries, no attempt to discuss, unexplained reversions, POV content about "stand-alone sequels", incorrect titles, listing poster taglines as the title, and more. The user has been warned repeatedly and knows exactly what (s)he is doing at this point. DarkKnight2149 14:28, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Are you requesting a range block? _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 14:56, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

@Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: I don't think the situation has escalated to the point where a range block is necessary. The user stopped using the other IP after getting blocked, just so (s)he could do the same at the current IP (97.95.12.163). As far as I'm aware, there aren't any others (at least, not yet).

I think that the blocking of both IPs may suffice (as there's no telling if the user will evade their hypothetical block by going back to their previous IP, assuming they can). DarkKnight2149 00:32, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

IP-Hopper troll

86.187.165.84 is the latest IP of the troll in my entry further up on this page. Eik Corell (talk) 20:44, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Ohnoitsjamie has applied a rangeblock for a week. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 18:11, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

86.187.185.109‎ (talk · contribs) just now edited Rossiya Airlines in typical fashion here, so something still needs to be tightened up. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:02, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, he's skipped outside the rangeblock. I've blocked the IP and will keep an eye out. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 18:27, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

132.177.197.98 : persistent BLP-violating edit-warring

Reporting 132.177.197.98 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for persistent BLP-violating edits to AnnaSophia Robb. This started with wildly unencyclopedic comments ([83] and [84]). IP then switched to an unreferenced claim about "internet memes" referring to the same thing, in an attempt to get the comment into the article. IP has continued despite multiple reversions by multiple editors and a series of escalating requests-to-desist on IP's talk page. IP's few responses (e.g. [85]) have been basically "F you, I'm going to do what I want" (one of them to ClueBot!). Suggest IP block for NOTHERE, BLP, DIDNTHEARTHAT, etc. Jeh (talk) 20:55, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

A report like this should start by going to WP:AIV, as that's the page that handles vandal issues. Adding a note there might be overkill, as this is a heavily watched page by admins, but in the future, repeatedly warned editors that continue to vandalize should go to WP:AIV. RickinBaltimore (talk) 21:00, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I'll move it if that's what you're recommending. Jeh (talk) 21:02, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

It wouldn't hurt to post it there either. Just a friendly tip for if you catch this in the future too :) RickinBaltimore (talk) 21:03, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Possible Vandalism/Advertising at Game_of_Silence_(U.S._TV_series)

My apologizes if I'm doing this wrong, however I noticed the following edit from user named SierracrawfordmpD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) whom is possibly advertising malware on wikipedia, or at the very least advertising his own site. I have, however, already reverted the change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Game_of_Silence_%28U.S._TV_series%29&oldid=714954592

My apologizes if I didn't link it properly, I just thought I'd step in. 50.186.26.192 (talk) 21:05, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I sent a note over to WP:AIV about it. The link came up as possibly malware on my system, and was blocked as such. RickinBaltimore (talk) 21:06, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank You. It's his only edit, so I'm questioning if there are Socks or not.50.186.26.192 (talk) 00:52, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

IP-hopping vandal/troll from Kerala, India still at it. Need a permanent solution.

The IP-hopper that I posted an ANI on ten days ago [86] is still at it. He has been vandalizing Talk:Social work for two months straight.

• Blatant lying: [87], [88], [89], [90]
• Altering others' posts: [91]
• Deleting others' posts: [92], [93], [94], [95]

• Vandalizing others' posts: [96], [97], [98], [99], [100], [101], [102], [103], [104], [105]

• Archive/format vandalizing: [106], [107], [108], [109], [110]

• Trolling: [111], [112], [113], [114], [115], [116], [117], [118], [119], [120],

• Time-wasting: [121]

Need a permanent solution. Since Talk:Social work is a talk page, I'd like to request indefinite pending changes. Indefinite so it's permanent (he quickly returns after protections expire), and pending changes so that any legitimate posts by non-trolling IPs can get through. (There are a number of people watching the page who can "accept" legitimate non-autoconfirmed posts.)

Thanks, Softlavender (talk) 03:21, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

(PS: The last non-troll-IP post to that talk page was six months ago, and before that, years apart. So if indefinite pending-changes doesn't sound ideal, I suggest six months of semi-protection.) Softlavender (talk) 03:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• I'd do it but the PD2 button seems to have fallen out of my Protect menu. I applied regular semi-protection for a week so that some other admin can do what I seem incapable of doing. Drmies (talk) 03:51, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Pending changes does not seem to be an available option for talk pages. — Diannaa (talk) 04:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Then can we apply plan B -- six months semi-protection? He's an IP-hopper with dozens of IPs used so far. This guy has been around steadily for over two months straight. If he wants to contribute, he can register. Softlavender (talk) 04:12, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Is it your opinion that anon ips's shouldn't contribute and only registered members should. Blocking talk page is kind of annoying. Blocking article page for personal reasons are understandable.117.241.21.127 (talk) 10:59, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

@Drmies: Whatever you attempted didn't take -- it's not in your contributions log or the page log. Also, one week isn't going to help; he returns immediately after protection expires -- see the edit-history of Social work. Can we please therefore apply plan B above -- six months semi-protection? He's an IP-hopper with dozens of IPs used so far. He has been around steadily for over two months straight. If he wants to contribute, he can register. Softlavender (talk) 04:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

As an editor consider helping other newbies. Consider an editor as an editor not as an he or she. Accusing all those IPs as one IP-hopper doesn't match with the talk page posts. If ip editors are editing and they are sourced, your claims are........I don't know. Well learn to team player in a community effort.117.241.21.127 (talk) 10:59, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Well, looks like Drmies went to bed without doing anything at all. Can an admin please semi-protect Talk:Social work for six months? Softlavender (talk) 05:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Semi-protected for one month to start. — Diannaa (talk) 05:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Before going for blocks kindly look into what is really happening. Editors like Softlavender and Jim1138 actions are synonymous to persistent vandalism. They edit out elements. They edit out sourced content. They are not willing to engage in a meaningful discussion. There objective is harmful to the the article. I am not sure and not going into research of there past activities. But to restrict access to talk page or article page is an extension of there need to close any good contribution. Many of those links are just labeled for personal interests and in scaling system highly dangerous when it comes to biting and harassment. There are some genuine ones, but looking at the talk page one could find them resolved. Kindly look through thoroughly before granting these editors there wishes.61.2.171.197 (talk) 07:38, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Editors like softlavender and jim1138 Activities are presistent to vandalism and trolling with reverts. There primary way of dispute resolution is reverting posting warning then giving requests for blocks. These are all understandable from a through search. Also if one has to assume the reason for the current block initiaton, what would be the reason. There is nothing valid in the talk page or the article to initiate such a block. Only active duscussion. If this is an issue we have to look whether these blocks are a therapeutic need for burnouts. If so taking leave might be more beneficial than using wikipedia to find confident by dissing and name calling others. Furthermore if the recent activities of these editirs looked in the specific talk oage one could see deletion of posts from an op editor, even after the continuos warnings these efitors engaged in such activities without an orooer explaination. Who shoild be really blocked for a permanent solution ? 106.208.158.137 (talk) 08:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm not totally convinced that this person can't be turned into a productive editor in time. Some of this seems to have stemmed from a lack of understanding that talk functions more like a message board than a collaborative product. They seemed fairly receptive to this when it was explained...patiently.

Regardless, I don't think it's too much to ask for this person to register an account. Assuming they're open to constructive feedback, this would certainly make the process much easier. TimothyJosephWood 12:32, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Hypocritepedia

I have had an SPI report against Hypocritepedia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) on their latest IP 69.178.193.128 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) open for five days since they sent several password reset requests my way with no action, though understandably so because there was no en.wiki activity from 69.178.193.128 until this morning when they began their usual anti-Facebook edits and North Dakota media topic edits anew. I added to the sock report but didn't send a report to AIV because I figured somebody would be on it.

This afternoon the IP used an email I never have made public and use for junk purposes only, to create a Twitter account to post their rants on (I can provide the email proof on request). They didn't have the password but I still got the verification email about it, which I obviously turned down. This continues Hypocritepedia's past behavior of attempts to compromise my email and social accounts (which are all protected by two-factor so I'm not really worried about losing them). Please immediately block this IP and take action on the SPI; I understand there's not much that can be done for off-wiki harassment but they definitely have no intentions for positive contribs here ever (I am refusing to inform the IP for obvious reasons). Thank you. Nate • (chatter) 05:15, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Question: Why did you "create a Twitter account to post their rants on"? Sounds like the "off-wiki harassment" is going both ways .... Softlavender (talk) 05:23, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Softlavender--you may want to re-read the above and consider whether bedtime is here? John from Idegon (talk) 05:30, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. There should probably be a coma between the 'only' and the 'to'; viz, 'and use for junk purposes only, to create a Twitter account.' _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 08:44, 13 April 2016 (UTC) 

Drdaviddukesucks (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked this morning making the same edits. Never mind criticizing my grammar, can someone look at the open SPI and block the IP, please? Nate • (chatter) 22:05, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Issue at Collective narcissism

User:Horacewcrosby1 is persistently trashing collective narcissism applying off the wall original research totally contrary to any perceived wisdom or reliable sources. He also sometimes trashes the formatting at the same time eg https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collective_narcissism&oldid=715049830 and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collective_narcissism&oldid=709624868 --Penbat (talk) 17:00, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Is there a reason you haven't discussed this with User:Horacewcrosby1 on his or her talk page? Brianga (talk) 17:18, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Disruptive nationalist clearly WP:NOTHERE

The user Bolter21 is repeatedly showing that they are WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopaedia. After a long discussion resulted in an overwhelming consensus [122] after two months, Bolter21 immediately went against the consensus by twice editing State of Palestine completely contrary to the strong consensus [123], [124]. As Bolter21's attitude to other users is to declare that others aren't worth answering [125] and openly declaring they won't respect WP:CONSENSUS [126]. The whole edit history of this user suggests WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:NOTHERE. I'd suggest a topic ban from everything related to WP:ARBPIA as the user clearly cannot edit constructively in that topic area. Jeppiz (talk) 17:16, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Bolter21 is also quick to invoke 1RR policy against others in a way that is, frankly, intimidation: [127]. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 17:21, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

You simply blame me for WP:TALKEDABOUTIT, there is no problem in quetioning a poorly sourced consensus, even if a million people agree about it. I did not violate the consensus in any way, I only stated that there's a discussion about the definition in the lead section and I said I don't have any respect for this consensus. What is this? Soviet Russia? are you not allowed to say you don't agree with a consensus?

Of course I will go against the consensus! -(some of you understood it as if I am going to violate the consensus, but I meant I will continue the argument)--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:51, 13 April 2016 (UTC) Me and another user, presented over 15 reliable sources who contradict the consensus.

I have placed the "Dubious" template on the article becuase a user changed the content of the lead section and while he was backed with a consensus, there is still an ongoing discussion about it.

And I told OpenFuture he doesn't worth the answer becuase he continued to avoid the problem. If he was deeply hurt by this, I am sorry, but that doesn't justify a topic ban. You are saying that my whole edit history suggest I am not here to make an encyclopedia.. You clearly havent seen my edit history. That's, in my opinion, worse than saying to someone "you don't worth the answer" in a ridiculous conversation.

Isambard Kingdom, the law in WP:ARBPIA says that who ever violates the 1RR rule is subjected to a ban, so I warned you so you won't quetion it. I didn't knew who you were and what is your background so I talked to you as if you were a day old user, to make sure you will self-revert it.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:19, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Seems Bolter21 has been having this argument for almost a year now, when they quite cautiously and conservatively called a name change a "crime against humanity". Per their user page, item one on their to do list is "Remove the claim the PNA was transformed to SoP in 2013." So seems an awful lot like they don't care about the consensus because they've already made up their mind, not because they have better sources. TimothyJosephWood 19:26, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

This "crime against humanity" statement was made when I had less than 100 edits on Wikipedia, so I'll ask you to ignore it. About the the PNA subject, it's already over, I "won" simply because there were no sources to support the claims of the opposing users while I brought over 40, so I don't see the relevance.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:42, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment It seems to be admin action is urgently required here. Bolter21 is openly admitting he intends to continue to disrupt the project by editing against consensus by stating blatantly "Of course I will go against the consensus!" and "I don't have any respect for this consensus". This editor is very clearly here for advocacy and as they so openly admit on their own userpage, to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. At the very least a total topic ban from this area is required. AusLondonder (talk) 19:39, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Where did he say that "I will go against consensus" as far as editing against the consensus, and not just commenting about it? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:43, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph: Please read before commenting. It's there in black and white. "Of course I will go against the consensus!" Ctrl-F is your friend. AusLondonder (talk) 20:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Is there any reason you deleted my comments? And again, you can't bring someone to ANI for commenting about how the consensus is wrong and he will comment against it. Did he edit the page in violation of the (non) consensus? Again, since you deleted my comment, the RFC was on how to describe the recognition of Palestine, not on if it's a state or not. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:59, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph: I didn't delete your comment. Check the history. Please strike that false allegation. AusLondonder (talk) 21:07, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• • Comment I said I don't respect, but I didn't violate it nor did I had any intention of changing the content of the article without a consensus although I cant allow it to remain as a "state" when clearly I and another two editors presented sources who contradict the consensus, so insteed of editing by reliable sources, I just added a template implying this is debatable.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:42, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Why did you say then "Of course I will go against the consensus!" above? AusLondonder (talk) 20:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Because in my retarded semitic language, the literal translation of "go against" is "to speak against". As I said, you misunderstood me and you have no proof to claim I had an intention to violate the consensus since I didn't nor I said I will. Although now I discovered I was mislead and the consensus wasn't even about the topic we talked about--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment (ec) I guess one issue here is what to do when consensus of the masses is wrong. This is the inherent problem of a democracy. In this case, Palestine is not a state, the same way all other countries are states. So I do agree that there has to be some notation or citation to clarify what is meant when you write Palestine- State. It is not a de facto state and we should not be writing as such no matter our biases. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:53, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Comment: B21, you noted that there is no problem with equating your fellow editors' problem that you "don't have any respect for the consensus", with the censorship of Soviet-era Russia. First of all, that is hyperbole, and I think you know that. There are two problems I see here. First is your apparent willingness to argue forever against the consensus. While you don't have to agree with consensus, once its formed, you do have to accept it until new information comes to light sufficient to challenge it; its part of the social contract we agree to when editing Wikipedia. If you choose not to accept viewpoints that are different than your own, you do not have to edit here. It's not like you are getting paid or receiving college credit for being a contributor.

Secondly, you should address how you deal with your fellow editors. Reminding them of violating 1RR is a bit disingenuous. The way you are proceeding is a sure path to topic ban. Ease up, give it a rest, and use that time to construct a better argument for change. The ones you are presenting aren't gaining traction here. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Did I violate the consensus?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:42, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

You stated your clear intention to do so, Bolter21. If someone shouts in a crowded theater that 'of course they will shoot everyone in the theater', people are going to presume that you are going to act on that and act preventively. To me, stating that 'of course you don't agree with consensus' would have been a better tack to take.

Something that just occurred to me - are you a native speaker of English? I've noted some grammar issues that tend to suggest that you aren't. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:40, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

No. I am a native Hebrew speaker.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:44, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• More filer is also misleading us with regards to the consensus. The consensus through a RFC was not how to call Palestine, it was whether or not to say Palestine is partially recognized or not. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 4:53 pm, Today (UTC−4)

• Comment Please note Bolter21 edited his initial "Of course I will go against the consensus!" comment, in violation of WP:REDACT in this edit AusLondonder (talk) 21:43, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal

Bolter21 (talk · contribs) is topic banned for 6-months from any edit that relates to Israel and Palestine statehood or the legitimacy of Israel and Palestine.--v/r - TP 19:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Snow Oppose and you might want to spell Israel correctly when you're trying to ban someone from talking about Israel. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:59, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph: No idea how someone can !vote "snow oppose" as the very first !vote AusLondonder (talk) 21:05, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

There is a grain of salt to be had here somewhere, given the user's personal connection to the topic per their user page. No accusations. No salt trucks. Just a single lonely grain. TimothyJosephWood 22:35, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

What's that supposed to mean? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 03:30, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Also Oppose - I get that y'all are pissed at B21 for his behavior; the good lord knows I've dealt enough with that sort of behavior before, and wanting to toss the editor in question into a box with nails on the inside and toss the box off a cliff can seem extremely attractive. But its wrong. If we don't start rehabilitating these editors, we lose the ability to define what is and isn't acceptable. Guide Boltor21 into being a better editor; that way, if they choose not to accept the help, its all on them. Topic bans aren't helpful, as you are still left with an intransigent editor who will just muck something else up. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
  • A 6-month topic-ban from a very narrowly defined topic is just about as easy as it gets while also ending the disruption. And frankly, if the editor goes and mucks something else up, then perhaps this isn't the project for them. Also, FYI, I'm not "pissed". I'm not involved in the topic area.--v/r - TP 20:10, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Comment: six months? for what? What have I done? Disagree with you while bringing dozens of sources? I did not violate any consensus and I did not start an edit war. I only said I don't support the consensus.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

You are misleading other editors. You didn't "only say" you don't support the consensus. You stated above in this very section that "Of course I will go against the consensus!" and "I don't have any respect for this consensus" AusLondonder (talk) 21:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC) Restoring my comment removed by Bolter21 AusLondonder (talk) 21:20, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Ok, so I didn't say I will go against the consensus, I "stated". Did I violated the consensus? I"ll explain for the observers again: What I meant is that I do not agree with the consensus, but not that I will violate it. I am here for almost a year so I do understand the consiquences of violating a consensus (although the consensus was about the adjective "Partially-recognized" while the conversation was about "de-jure" status). I didn't violate the consensus, I only said what I said and you interpreted as if I have an "intention" to violate it.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

If you're unequivocally stating here that you will abide by the consensus of the RfC when editing the article, then there is little need for this proposal and I retract my support for it. But, you really were not as clear as you think you are. A reasonable person would interpret that as your intention to disregard the consensus when editing the article.--v/r - TP 21:57, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Listen. There was a consensus not to use the statement "partially recognized" in the lead section of the article. The discussion was about "de-jure" status.

I have no problem saying "I will not call Palestine a "partially recognized state as the consensus in the RFD says", because the argument in the State of Palestine's talk page wasn't even about this subject. I can also say "I have sources that call the State of Palestine a "de-jure state" and therefore I am trying to seek for a consensus for that". You see that there is a difference between what I tried to achieve and what was agreed on the consensus? I honestly say I fully disagree with the other users opinions about what should be written in the status and also with the consensus, but I did not violate it and belive me or not, I did not have the intention to add the statement "partially recognzied" to the article while knowing there's a consensus against it. I don't remember even mentioning it in the talkpage.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support Seems the answer to me. The statements by Bolter21 that "Of course I will go against the consensus!" and "I don't have any respect for this consensus" bodes very badly for me. It shows a refusal to respect the community and proper consensus building. I don't agree with Jack Sebastian when they state topic bans result in an "intransigent editor who will just muck something else up" given that the editing of Bolter21 is problematic in this area because they are openly here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS regarding Palestine's statehood. Immediately after the RfC, Bolter21 disrespected and disregarded that result as shown above. This editor can use the period of a topic-ban to demonstrate competence outside of this single topic area AusLondonder (talk) 21:05, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Then you misunderstood my statement, because never have I ever violate this specific, not-100% related consensus. I meant is that I want to argue about it. And the consensus was about "partially recognized", not about "de jure" which is what we were debating--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• As the subject of a couple of topic bans myself, I disagree with the claim that topic bans "don't work." They do work, IF the subject of the ban understands the issues and cares about Wikipedia as a whole. Of course, if the subject is a single-purpose account, a topic ban is less likely to work for the subject, but it will work for Wikipedia. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:14, 13 April 2016
• Oppose: Wikipedia:Mentorship Give B21 to me for three months, if User:Bolter21 is amenable. Strongly agree with Jack Sebastian here. There is much WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS on both sides, if we are all honest. B21 just needs to learn to temper his POV and learn the steps to the elaborate I/P dance, and stick to the rules. Consensus can change, Bolter 21. Irondome (talk) 21:17, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Bolter21, please do not remove other peoples comment as you did here AusLondonder (talk) 21:20, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Look at the diff a bit more closely, AusLondonder; you both posted at approximately the same time. I've accidentally tagged out someone else's post in EditConflict before. How about a little AGF, eh? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:47, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment More seriously problematic behaviour by Bolter21. Now inappropriately WP:CANVASSING an editor they believe will support them. AusLondonder (talk) 21:29, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment It seems that ""Of course I will go against the consensus!" was followed by the statement "(-(some of you understood it as if I am going to violate the consensus, but I meant I will continue the argument) To continue to quote it here without the qualifying phrase does not seem fair. DGG ( talk ) 21:37, 13 April 2016 (UTC) .

@DGG: This "qualifying phrase" was added at a later date in this edit which per WP:REDACT is not entirely proper or fair as it makes the replies of other editors look misleading AusLondonder (talk) 21:41, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I"ll be honest, I added it after I realised the language barrier. Even if I did meant to violate a consensus, I didn't do it nor did I say "I want to violate a consensus" so the statement "I will go against the consensus" (Which literally means in my language to "speak against") can be interpreted in many ways and AusLondoner of course decided "I want to violate a consensus".--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:42, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

No, I interpreted your statement as stating you will go against the consensus. That was what you stated. I think you do have some things to learn. For example - don't edit your comments, don't delete others comments, don't engage in WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour regarding a topic you are obviously emotional about. If you learn those things you could be a great, productive editor AusLondonder (talk) 21:48, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I did not remove your comment on purpose, I now made my edit of my comment clear that it is a note I added after I posted the comment, and I don't think what happened in the talk there was a battleground. I was involved on WP:battlegrounds in the past and I am not willing to do it again. My arguments in the talk page of the State of Palestine were backed only by sources and the argument was not about something existing in any consensus.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:57, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your reasonable reply. I do personally think, as someone who edits relatively little in this topic area, that you are engaging in battleground behaviour on Israel-Palestine issues. This is evidenced by the statements on your userpage. The most obviously problematic statements for me are the ones, including the ones in diffs posted by the OP, that show disregard of consensus. Finally, what about the WP:CANVASSING of another editor you assume will agree with you and support you here? AusLondonder (talk) 22:10, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Who was supposedly canvassed? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:23, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Didn't really thought about the consiquences when I asked WarKosign. I didn't take this conversation seriously becuase I was blaimed for talking and it felt like it's just an extention of the original argument but in an ANI.. So I really have nothing to say about that "votestacking", if you want to call it by this.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:17, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I believe WP:CANVASSING applies to content disputes. This page deals with user conduct, and consensus is achieved by admins, not by obviously involved editors. “WarKosign” 06:47, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

@Jack Sebastian: I said this above. Here is the diff AusLondonder (talk) 22:39, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support Obvious, really. Since the ANI report, Bolter21 has continued editing against consensus, probably violated ARBPIA, and showed no inclination to even listen to others or admit any wrongdoing. Jeppiz (talk) 21:52, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Now you are just lying, or I am drunk and I don't know. Can you prove it please?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:57, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Sorry about that, apparently my computer and phone show different times for edits. That part struck, the reminder stays. Jeppiz (talk) 22:13, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

B21 has just noted that English isn't his/her first language, so I think it beneficial to Assume Good Faith that the editor, in stating that they would 'go against consensus' might be a translation error when what they meant to say is that they would speak out against consensus - a completely different thing.
This is how I see it:

1. This article has a lot of overtones involving nationalism and the legitimacy of such - opinions are going to be very strongly endorsed.
2. We have one editor with a substantially different viewpoint than that of the consensus.
3. That editor has stated that he has brought numerous references in support of their position, but they haven't convinced the consensus.
4. The editor's stated intention in disagreement with the consensus has been (innocently) misinterpreted as tendentious editing.
5. The editor doesn't have the experience necessary to understand how consensus works in consensus, or communal editing. This is a critical skill necessary in all aspects of editing within Wikipedia.

With the above in mind, I would suggest the following:

• If reliable, well-supported and mainstream sources exist, an RfC should be created to consider the weight of those sources (or, of course, via RSN).
• Bolter21 is in critical need of mentorship. This should be a condition of his moving forward from here. If he's not just ranting and spouting propaganda but instead bringing sources, that should be interpreted as being useful to the project.
• Bolter should voluntarily avoid this topic during the period of mentorship. If he can do so, it will only help him as an editor, and his realization of this would only help the Project. If he agrees to this and violates it anyway, I'd fully support an indef topic ban (not temporary).
• Consider that sometimes the consensus is wrong, as per Biggleswiki. This is why we rely heavily upon sourced material from outside Wikipedia and not opinions from within it. Neutrality os key here.

Thoughts? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:16, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Agree with all the above points. We are looking at at primarily a confusion of semantics, and minor behavioural issues which can be fixed by mentorship. I believe this editor has excellent potential to be a great editor (Palestinian workers in Israel is an example of the editor's ability to create good content) and I further believe that Bolter21 will be a net plus to the project after some additional guidance. Irondome (talk) 22:26, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I always appriciate a good word.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:31, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I am not willing to avoid this topic, since I havent done anything wrong in the topic in the past few months. I still have things to do such as expanding the history section of the PA article and update new information about the Fatah–Hamas reconciliation process which no one seem to do. I still don't see something I did wrong in the topic, since the last time I was blocked for violating 1RR which was in last [User_talk:Bolter21#1RR_violation_again september] and I"ve "grownup alittle" since. About mentorship I have no problem. --Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:31, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• well are you ok to accept mentorship while editing this area for a few months, so you can co-operate more effectively with other eds? Hint. The correct answer to that is yes. Simon. Irondome (talk) 22:40, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Of course, I already use some degree of mentorship from another user whom I have contact outside Wikipedia. The only thing I really care about right now (Apart from sleeping, this conversation clearly ruined my salary of tomorrow) is the State of Palestine's topic, and as long as mentroship doesn't prevent me from extracting basic information from reliable sources and placing it in a lead section to prevent a POV and/or misleading statement in an article visited by 50,000 people in a month, I have no problem.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:47, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I think you should absolutely take a little time to consider this proposal; your stated unwillingness to avoid this topic during mentorship gives credence to the RIGHTGREATWRONGS arguments being put forth in advocacy of your being banned from editing there at all. I'd urge you to consider displaying some discipline here; it will count greatly. Consider the alternative to taking a short break from the article to taking a permanent one. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:48, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I assume by the "topic" you mean the State of Palestine article? Because I don't really have an intention editing it beyond that lead section issue. Cuase I don't have a problem avoiding what I bearly edit anyway. But I can't avoid the whole conflict topic becuase this is my main focus in Wikipedia.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:57, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

"The only thing I really care about right now (Apart from sleeping, this conversation clearly ruined my salary of tomorrow) is the State of Palestine's topic" - these remarks are not remarks from someone planning to drop the stick and contribute constructively to the project. AusLondonder (talk) 22:52, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

You again take my statements and use them as arguments to determinate I am "NOTHERE", go look at my contributions.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:57, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment (edit conflict) I think it's interesting and concerning that Jack Sebastian seems very keen to criticise and undermine consensus. I also see no reason why the interpretation of most editors of those remarks by Bolter21 critical of the consensus is "incorrect". We now see editors conceding more ground and Bolter21 openly stating they will continue on this crusade to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Not much progress is being made here. AusLondonder (talk) 22:50, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with withholding judgement, as long as you don't withhold WP:ROPE.TimothyJosephWood 22:55, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I will not participate in this conversation until tommorow becuase I really got to sleep.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:11, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment & Explanatory - I have just read the entirety of the Talk Page and this discussion here. It is quite clear that there is a VERY serious language barrier in terminology. It is also quite clear that some of the 'commemorators' have used this to further their own POV. The status of Israel and Palestine are very emotive subjects, as is known, and obvious, to any person that is up to date on the subject. I see a lot of POV being masked behind 'source material' as well. The primary status of Neutrality on WP is not being accurately, and I would say intentionally, adhered to by some. I support Option 1 for the record (as a military and political historian). AusLondonder has repeatedly used the Language issues as an example of Bolter21 having a recalcitrant attitude. I find this to be problematic and not coming from an UN-emotive state, but I do support some of hers/his comments on the issues raised. Various commentators have tried to bring the topic back to the issue at hand, but this has been ignored by multiple participants, including Bolter21.
  

The Israeli Lobby and the Palestinian Sympathisers are clearly present and accounted for also. I very strongly don't consider the consensus to have been Appropriately reached either. Quite specifically, 2 of the options given (3 & 4) were completely ignorant of the historical facts; though I'm not condemning the person who attempted to make a compromise, in their efforts of finding a consensus, it is just a perfect example of the side of the fence certain parties, with a vested interest, are going to promote, hence my wording. I also consider Option 2 to be supportive of one side more so than than the other, which is not a neutral stance.

I feel this needs some very serious, large scale efforts by people that do NOT have any Israeli or Palestinian backgrounds. It also, the article in general (IMO), needs to reflect the literal, actual position held by the General Assembly of the United Nations on the issue as a whole, which is not flattering for either side at all.

I've avoided the Israel/Palestine topic so far, because neither side get away with the publicly aired views from their respective propaganda machines, as being true, accurate (or even factual a lot of the time, IE propaganda), when it is scrutinised against the Purely Militarily Historical Evidence of Mandatory Palestine and Trans-Jordan, and the historically proven way 'it all went down' from the fall out of WWI and then again after the effects of WWII.

As a very neutral party I am willing to participate in any such discussion. I also realise I slightly strayed form the ANI, but I felt some context was required. Nuro msg me 01:44, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Seriously. Conciseness. Gotta work on that. TimothyJosephWood 02:20, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually, that was very concise for the topic being presented.--v/r - TP 03:24, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you TParis, and Timothy I don't do 'small talk', as what ever it is by Concise that your looking for, sounds to me like using 'little words' and not much substance, which I find abhorrent and disrespectful to the reasons behind commenting on anything in the first place. Make a defined and factual statement is the only way to go. If/when that an be achieved with few words, I will do so. Nuro msg me 04:19, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Voluntarily avoiding the topic during the period of mentorship and no restrictions are not the only solutions. We could allow the edits but require pre-approval from the mentor. Or require that edits be in the form of proposals on the article talk page which anyone (including the mentor) can implement. The goal is to lift any restrictions as soon as possible, and this would help to make the case for removal. I think that Bolter21 can do a lot of good in these topic areas. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:10, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Language issues aside, I fear nothing Bolter21 has written does anything to disperse my WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:NOTHERE concerns. Quite the contrary, all well-meaning suggestions above that would hinder his activities in the WP:ARBPIA area are rejected. Jeppiz (talk) 10:24, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

My apologies, but I find your statement confusing. Are you supporting his voluntary temp suspension, with mentorship, from the page, or are you saying that he/she should be banned from the topic permanently. Nuro msg me 12:42, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Either. I'm not interesting in "punishing" anyone, just to make Wikipedia work. If his voluntary temp suspension, with mentorship, from ARBPIA subjects work, then all the better. If he does not accept that, or if it does not, then a topic ban from ARBPIA. Given his behavior, and his attitude towards others (see RolandR's comment below, I fear he is WP:NOTHERE. Jeppiz (talk) 12:57, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment It should be noted that, in a comment on my talk page[128], Bolter21 has very strongly implied that I am an antisemite. I question this editor's ability to interact collegially with other editors who do not share her/his viewpoint, and suggest that they are advised and warned that such comments are not acceptable on Wikipedia. RolandR (talk) 12:54, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I didn't say you are anti-semitic (which will be wierd since you are a Jew), I said it seems you share ideologies with anti-semites, I didn't spsify which. I am not stupid enough to call a man who calls himself a Jew an "anti-semitic".--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:34, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

This has been my suspicion. That it would come down to this level; Pro- or Atni- Israeli, or more importantly the accusation of, which I consider a pointless attitude and alters my opinion. Nuro msg me 13:29, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

NOTE: I posted my response at the same time as Bolter21 - to which I will add that this has become the 'argument' that I feared. I think Bolter21 is acting like an Ultra-Nationalist, and this is not acceptable. The rationale used a moment ago is a condemning example; "shares the views of an anti-semite, even though they are a Jew". This is quite extraordinary, and is clearly the opinions of someone not accepting the facts, that many parts of the world, with large Jewish communities in them, like here in Australia, are not supportive of the Zionist attitudes towards the Palestinian question. This does not make someone an anti-semite. Bolter21 I don't know your age or education or background professionally, but I would advise you undergo some mentorship if you want to contribute to the debate, because you come across very one sided; this may be unacceptable to you, and you may feel aggrieved, but it is my advice. Nuro msg me 14:17, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Ultra-nationalist...... Wow. Now that's a title I never got from anyone. I am not sure how to react to someone who called me an ultranationalist to be honest. You clearly distort the words I said to RolandR in an ugly and dirty way, becuase I didn't even talked about his opinions on the conflict or critisized him for not being Zionist. You now assuming things about my political opinions on Jews oppsing Zionism. I live in Tel Aviv, I am serounded by anti-Zionist Jews who generally vote for Hadash and funny enough most of them are my friends. All the users who critisize me, do it becuase of statements I made in talks, while it was a pretty long time since I made disputed POV statements in articles whilie dispiting other peoples opinions.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 14:32, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Support - WP:ARBPIA volantary hiatus with mentorship, or if unwilling or unable to accept, total topic ban. Nuro msg me 14:17, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Now completely disruptive. Admin action needed

In the "best" possible display of his WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, Bolter21 waited barely 24 hours before going back to his edit war, even writing "24 hours passed" to show how he's gaming the system [129]. This renders moot all the concerns above that it was about Bolter21's language skills; Bolter21 claimed he would respect no consensus and by returning to edit warring, he shows that he ignores the consensus. So what we have here is an aggressive WP:SPA who openly declares he respects no consensus that doesn't suit him, accuses people who disagree of being like anti-semites, and despite this ongoing discussion, he still continues his edit war against a clear consensus. I respect those who assumed good faith but now more than enough WP:ROPE has been given. By blatantly continuing the edit war in an area under heavy discretionary sanctions, Bolter21 shows he will not listen to anyone else. I move the user be either topic banned or indeffed as per WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:NOTHERE and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. This user brings nothing positive to the project. Jeppiz (talk) 21:13, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I made this revert. The template says "This claim has reliable sources with contradicting facts", and this is the reality, I presented reliable sources with contradicting facts. So until the dispute is settled, this statement needs to have the template. Now could you leave me alone already?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:17, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

You knew the consensus was against it, but of course did it anyway to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Jeppiz (talk) 21:19, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

And you are lying about me accusing people of being Anti-Semitic just like when you claimed yesterday I "continued editing against consensus, probably violated ARBPIA". I did not violate a consensus and a consensus is always subjected to conversation. Just find someone else to harras for moses' sake.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:24, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Regardless of the consensus, there are new sources, that were not presented during the conversation of the consensus that are presented now. According to WP:TALKEDABOUTIT I did nothing wrong.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:24, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

You also claim I bring nothing positive to the project.

I created this article, and in the article Israeli–Palestinian conflict (2015) I made edits like this, this, this. In the article Palestinian National Authority I made this section, this. On the article State of Palestine I rearanged this section. So please, can you leave me alone with you stupid accusation cause I am really starting to loose it.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:32, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

If you feel you are starting to lose your cool, you might want to sit back and read WP:TEA. Editing while frustrated or angry has never - in the entire history of Wikipedia - ended well for the person unable to stay calm. Take a break. It's Spring - go and smell some flowers or listen to kids play. Seriously. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:53, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Maybe a short 48-72 hour article ban might help cool heads a little. Is too much WP:SANCTIONGAME. TimothyJosephWood 22:57, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Will an article ban prevent me from participating in the talk? cause that's the main problem..--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:07, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't believe so. I'm not an admin, but my understanding is that the two pages are specific. Maybe someone with more rights can clarify. Regardless, I think at this point, the responsible thing to do would to be to let someone else make the change to the article that you are pushing for. It's always a good tactic to avoid the appearance of impropriety in matters like this. TimothyJosephWood 23:32, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Timothy has given some good advice Bolter21 and as I have now read all the articles that you've been editing, to clarify myself further with the situation, I strongly suggested you take it. Your continued Recalcitrance on the advice and the suggestions that have been given to you is not helping your cause. Living in Tel Aviv doesn't change anything. You continuously maintain a Nationalist attitude (yes I used the term Ultra-Nationalist for a reason) towards the entire affair. Look at some of the Eastern European WP articles for some insight as to what is expected of a contributor about conflict zones, IE Crimea, and the required Neutral Stance expected of an editor. Citing new source material doesn't mean that you've 'proven' your point of view is the correct one. Look, I've been in trouble for reacting badly to article debates and issues involving myself since reaturning to WP. I'm a very Heavy person in general and in my daily existence, but in the written word I'm a ******* nuclear weapon in responding to criticisms made against me in a 'perceived attack' or if I consider someone as being 'disrespectful', when they may not be. I've learned some hard lessons. You need to also, mate. Your not correct about everything. Seriously 'eh. Nuro msg me 00:02, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Condemn - And now you dare edit my own User Page? Are you for real!? I advocate total ban for being such an obvious WP:VANDAL Nuro msg me 01:03, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

COPYVIO and possible COI

This issue was initially raised at WP:BLPN here, but bringing it here for more eyes and possibly admin action. Two single purpose accounts were recently created, HARRYCRAIG and Vacariu.bucharest. HARRYCRAIG has only edited two articles - Markus Gabriel and yesterday created Gabriel Vacariu, the editor Vacariu.bucharest has only edited the Vacariu article (probably a WP:COI) and the Vacariu article has WP:COPVIO issues. This section in the article appears to have been copied verbatim from here. It would appear these two users are here to right great wrongs and push a POV that Gabriel plagiarized Vacariu, which apparently has already been addressed, but maybe not to his satisfaction - there are no plausible grounds to believe that Prof. Gabriel violated the standards of good scientific practice by making improper use of the ideas expressed in your published texts.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 15:22, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Logically speaking, if an editor is adding copyright violations to an article, they do not have a conflict of interest - COI refers to content that is from an original source, that cannot be found elsewhere. I don't see any reasons to accuse this editor of a COI, because their username doesn't seem to give much away in respect to this. Simply speaking, if the information can be accessed on the Internet or through a book, there is no conflict of interest. I completely agree with the WP:COPYVIO observation, however. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:43, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

COI refers to content that is from an original source, that cannot be found elsewhere. The way I interpret WP:COI is - "Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial or other relationships." The editor's username is Vacariu.bucharest and the only article they have edited is Gabriel Vacariu, who also happens to be with the University of Bucharest, which is why I said probably a COI, if the editor doesn't have a conflict of interest in editing the Vacariu article, then they can simply declare that they don't have a conflict of interest.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 17:56, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, Isaidnoway - I completely misread and thought that Vacariu.bucharest was the name of one of the articles. That'll teach me. Of course, a COI editor is someone who edits about someone they know well, but if there is a copyright violation present, that means the violating material comes from somewhere else (i.e. a website) and therefore it isn't original research or own knowledge. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 18:00, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Ches, no disrespect intended, but I didn't mention anything about "original research or own knowledge", I clearly stated above that the copyvio originated from this website. Thanks.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 18:14, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Chesnaught555, I know you mean well but please don't comment on policy unless you understand it, as it has to potential to confuse good-faith new editors who assume people making confident pronouncements on ANI are speaking from authority. The existence of a COI has no relationship to whether the author knows the article subject (although the latter can sometimes be an indicator of the former). Whether something is a copyvio or not has no relevance to whether a COI exists. Inter alia, it's perfectly possible to violate the copyright of a work of which you're the creator—in most legal systems copyright belongs to the body commissioning the work, not the author, and thus a writer contributing a piece to a newspaper or magazine will rarely have the right to upload the piece to Wikipedia even though it's 100% their own work. ‑ Iridescent 18:20, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Iridescent, I do mean well, and I thank you for your good faith assumption. I simply do not see a conflict of interest, only a copyright violation. Of course, as you said, I am not speaking from authority, I am simply making a non-administrator observation. My apologies for any confusion I have caused. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 18:42, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Disruptive editing of several pages related to Tetrapodomorphs.

User:Lavalizard101 has been adding unsourced material and making sweeping, widespread changes to articles including taxonomy templates, taxoboxes, and changes to sourced phylogeny analyses, apparently in order to support information he found on a web site and on outdated Wiki articles. continues to revert/edit war when corrected with newer and more valid sources, removing references and changing data when corrected. Examples [130] B[131] Block requested. Dinoguy2 (talk) 20:17, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Blocked 24 hours for edit warring and 3RR violation. In the future, WP:AN3 is thataway. Katie^talk 21:01, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually, OP violated 3RR after being warned, so blocks all around. Katie^talk 21:04, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

If I may comment @KrakatoaKatie:. I had also had an issue with User:Lavalizard101 with his/ her edits. I did not revert at the time I commented on his mistakes on his talk page in the hope they may fix it themselves. I have now reverted that edit. Although a little surprised this got put here so quickly by User:Dinoguy2 I have come across many edits by the later user he is generally very good and the damage being done by Lavalizard, in particular to taxoboxes, gets out of hand very quickly and can be difficult to fix. Knowing this may have influenced Dinoguy2's reaction. Cheers, Faendalimas ^talk 23:28, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I appreciate that, but Dinoguy2 has been here for more than ten years and he knows better than to edit war and violate 3RR. We have a specific noticeboard and everything to stop it before it gets out of hand. There's no reason to edit war like that. None. Katie^talk 23:44, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I understand and agree totally that edit warring must be avoided. Cheers, Faendalimas ^talk 00:02, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Harassment

User:Muboshgu is systematically targeting articles I have started for deletion. This behavior extends back at least three years, and perhaps as many as five, but has ramped up the behavior within the past week, having PRODed or AFDed half a dozen articles. In addition, he has attempted to call me out or start arguments by using over-assertive or aggressive language in various talk pages. His behavior flies counter to the goals and pillars of Wikipedia, and drives active users with many thousands of edits, such as myself, and potentially productive members, away. This also flies counter to the goals of Wikipedia. I ask something be done about this. Wikipedia is supposed to be a collaborative place, but activities such as his make it anything but. Alex (talk) 22:21, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

If you didn't create articles on non-notable individuals, despite all attempts by myself and others to coach you on WP:GNG and WP:BASE/N, I wouldn't nominate them for deletion. I think you need a primer on the term "harassment" as well. Please provide evidence of these "over-assertive or aggressive" talk page posts. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

No proof, no help. TJH2018 talk 22:30, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I just perused the OP's talk page and nominated a bunch more articles for deletion based on what was linked there. So am I harassing you too? You create articles that do not come close to meeting notability, they are going to get nominated for deletion. If you disagree with the notability guidelines, start a discussion at the appropriate talk page--don't keep creating articles that do not meet the existing guidelines. John from Idegon (talk) 22:55, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

If I had more time to spare, I would go further in looking through articles Alex has created to see which ones should be nominated for deletion. Some are perfectly valid, meeting GNG or BASE/N. Others, like Brett Nicholas, luck into it eventually. The majority should be deleted. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:11, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• This is a joke, right?--Yankees10 23:03, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I would like to note that Yankees10, above, is another member that has used hateful and mean-spirited comments toward me for years. As well, I would like to reiterate some of the major points from the Five Pillars of Wikipedia: "Wikipedia has no firm rules: Wikipedia has policies and guidelines, but they are not carved in stone; their content and interpretation can evolve over time. The principles and spirit matter more than literal wording, and sometimes improving Wikipedia requires making exceptions. Be bold but not reckless in updating articles. And do not agonize over making mistakes: every past version of a page is saved, so mistakes can be easily corrected." Please recognize that Wikipedia's active membership has declined steadily for the past five years. The English website now has less than 30,000 active monthly editors, and has averaged that few editors for the past three months, the worst three month trend since 2013 and a trend that has not been truly matched since before Wikipedia became popular, in 2006. Perhaps it is time some of its members allow for a more inclusive environment, one free of hostile cliques as witnessed in the baseball editing community, one that encourages people to contribute without the fear of having other members stalking their every move, one that allows for content that has true research value that might not fall within the exact wording or phraseology the guidelines, one that limits the bureaucratic hyper-attention to exact wording of said guidelines, which flies in the face of the goals of Wikipedia, and one that actually wishes to attract new members, rather than supports a milieu that will only discourage members from joining and drive members away, as has been occurring for many years. Alex (talk) 23:18, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Would an Admin please consider a block for WP:NPA for this? This fella needs a time out. John from Idegon (talk) 01:14, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I assume you meant this edit? If so, that's not much of a personal attack. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:44, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
    • "This fella needs a timeout" is yet another attempt to drive me away from Wikipedia. It is clear they have a bone to pick with me, and they are attempting to use any means possible to get me to leave. Alex (talk) 01:53, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
• There is no "they". I seldom edit sports related articles, with the exception of numerous non and borderline notable people I encounter on Notable people lists at school and settlement articles. I saw this thread and I acted upon your repeated creation of non notable articles. No they. That is the risk you run when you come whining to mommy about big mean editors that are picking on you. John from Idegon (talk) 02:38, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - Alex, my advice is to cite the Literature in Print still, or since, of the payer in question. 350 home runs is not a small achievement. It should be listed somewhere. John your "whinning home to Mummy" comment betrays your time on WP, and shows a complete lack of respect. Muboshgu I also don't think, with your time in WP, you've accounted yourself well with your rebuttal. If the two of you are involved in a Dispute Resolution, you've both acted unlike the expectations of a Senior Editor with the Badges you both display.
  Pre-Internet requires Academic source citation Alex, so my advice is go find some of this payer (I'm Australian and don't know much baseball), which as I said, for that many home runs, should be somewhere. Nuro msg me 03:06, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Disrespectful, inappropriate and offensive views and edits concerning independence and sovereignty of several Balkan states (part 3)

WP:STICK --Jayron32 23:47, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
U.S. recognized the independence and the sovereignty of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia (FYROM) and Kosovo. This means that all U.S. companies, organizations and citizens, in the U.S. or elsewhere, must respect the U.S. decisions. Here is what user Biruitorul posted on Wikipedia in his userboxes:'This user is Yugo-nostalgic - for the good Yugoslavia.'and 'This user opposes the independence of Kosovo and Metohija. Живела Србија!'. These statements made by user Biruitorul contradict the U.S. decisions. His personal views should be kept elsewhere and not on a public space. Try not to delete my post, because deleting is censorship! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.4.135 (talk) 23:17, 14 April 2016 (UTC) Whoever Biruitorul (talk · contribs) is, it is highly likely that he does not speak on behalf of any government. Also, he's been an editor here for 10 years, and the userbox has been there nearly as long. While kind of a strange take on things, it does not appear to be inflammatory. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:26, 14 April 2016 (UTC) This was just closed. Twice: [132]. Can someone block this IP already?142.105.159.60 (talk) 23:44, 14 April 2016 (UTC) If user Biruitorul has been on Wikipedia for 10 years, it only makes it worse. This shows either that Wikipedia tolerates his offensive views or that Wikipedia shares them. I still hope that Wikipedia distance itself from this offensive views of user Biruitorul and takes appropriate action. User Biruitorul's views are offensive to all citizens in the Balkan countries mentioned above and particularly to the victims of the genocide in former Yugoslavia. How would you think if you were one of them? I hope this topic is open to discussion and not cut off in an unilateral, radical manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.4.135 (talk) 23:43, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

2602:306:8383:53A0:D5C5:AE5:8242:23B0

Just thought I'd let you guys know that there is a vandal that's been vandalising a couple of pages. Just so you can take any bigger action against them if necessary. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 23:30, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

2602:306:8383:53A0:D5C5:AE5:8242:23B0 (talk · contribs) is the one in question. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:36, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 23:43, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

User(s) blocked. In the future, use WP:AIV for faster service. --Jayron32 23:46, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks for the head's up! :) ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 23:51, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Freedom of speech, first amendment in U.S. Constitution

it is clear the OP has an ax to grind. --Jayron32 00:14, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Freedom of speech, first amendment in U.S. Constitution? Does Wikipedia respect that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.4.135 (talk) 23:58, 14 April 2016 (UTC) Wikipedia is not an agency of the U.S. government, and is under no obligations covered by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. It is a private website, and just like you have the right to throw people out of your private home for any reason you want, Wikipedia also has the right to do whatever IT wants with the website IT owns. --Jayron32 00:00, 15 April 2016 (UTC) The irony of using the free speech argument while demanding we censor someone.142.105.159.60 (talk) 00:02, 15 April 2016 (UTC) Clear enough. Wikipedia shares disrespectful and offensive views towards victims of the genocide in former Yugoslavia, the same as user Biruitorul concerning the independence and sovereignty of several Balkan states. I will address the media, that may have different view in this matter. We shall see. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.4.135 (talk) 00:09, 15 April 2016 (UTC) Wikimedia Foundation's editorship is multinational. It is effectively a global organisation, it has its own rules for these issues that it tries to administer fairly. Why would I follow a constitution I have nothing to do with, I live in Brazil. When on Wikipedia I, like you, must follow the rules of this organisation. The media will know that too. Cheers Faendalimas talk 00:13, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Propose BOOMERANG

This is getting a little excessive. TimothyJosephWood 00:16, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Editor is not here to contribute to Wikipedia, and the above comment is a hair away from a legal threat. Please remove this IP. Four sections is enough time wasting. --Tarage (talk) 00:18, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

It qualifies as a legal threat. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:07, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

The IP had a point, originally, but that point has vanished into a haze of ranting that is barely a hair above trolling. Threatening to go to the media has the same chilling effect as a legal threat and should be dealt as such, liberal application of WP:RBI Blackmane (talk) 01:11, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:15, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Right back to it - just-blocked Sock

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Thegranitekitty is a sock of the just-blocked MagneticMarcella. MM was blocked about an hour ago per this.

Their first edit was the same as one MM had made twice here and here.

Sorry to bug you all, but that editor's talk page is a delicate place right now, per the ANI above about Swami Premananda. Jytdog (talk) 01:17, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.