Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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User_talk:Russavia#Unblock_request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Russavia (talk · contribs · email · block log · global contribs)

Forwarding this to ANI for community opinion as suggested by Spartaz. Jee 09:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• It's time. Block him again if he trolls again. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 10:19, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with Anthony, I work extensively with Russ on Commons (just to be entirely open, he re-nominated me for adminship there) and his dedication to the free content movement is unwavering (just one example - he often lets me know if he has found or uploaded a good photo we can use to improve an article on en.wp). He would, I believe, still be bound by the terms of the topic ban imposed by Newyorkbrad which restricts him from interacting with Jimmy and I'd expect that topic ban to remain in place for the foreseeable future if unblocked. Nick (talk) 10:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Spartaz's comment on Russavia's talk page in response to the request: inadequate recognition/contrition of his disruption. Also, his block log shows problematic activity too recently. DeCausa (talk) 10:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support Unblock. Our only purpose here is to build a source of free knowledge, and Russavia is very much committed to that and has been a very positive contributor. The existing block was appropriate, but it has served its purpose now. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

  (Just a general comment: In cases like this, there is often too much stress on wanting to see grovelling contrition. But we shouldn't be here for that, just to determine whether an editor will make positive contributions in the future. I personally don't care whether Russavia is even sorry or not, as long as I don't think he'll do it again. And I don't. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:24, 9 June 2014 (UTC))

• Is a Jimmy Wales topic ban and a one-way user Jimbo Wales interaction ban proposed to prevent any possibility of further trolling in that area? Johnuniq (talk) 11:02, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Continued concerns as the user says the "cause" was simply "drafting an article" where it is clear that the cause was not simply the "drafting" of an article, but was a tad more far-reaching than that. I will note that I have edited on articles brought to my attention on the UT page where I found Russavia's concerns valid. Collect (talk) 11:10, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Here's my problem: Russavia does some good work. However, when he goes off the rails, he goes so far off the damned rails that he end up in a different area code. Saying "stop it" doesn't work. Saying "seriously, stop it" doesn't work. Saying "for fuck's sake would you STOP" doesn't work. Unfortunately, the level of damage to both the project and the goodwill of its editors/readers between the first "stop it" and "for fuck's sake" is astronomical. I'm not seeing any way forward noted towards this issue the panda ₯’ 11:52, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

  I share that concern too - but surely a quick block would be the answer in the case of future problems? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:05, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

  I haven't decided here, but I think Boing! is on to something. A few editors here (who shall be nameless) do a lot of good work but occasionally go off the deep end, and we have resigned ourselves to the fact that the best way to deal with them is to just block them for one to four weeks every now and again when needed, but not indef block them. Is this one of those cases? I'm not sure. Handling editors this way isn't exactly covered by policy (excepting perhaps WP:IAR) but is often the most effective way for usually productive and prolific editors. I'm curious if this is one of those cases.Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support unblock. As the saying goes, unblocks are cheap (and by extension, reblocks are cheap as well). I'm personally of the opinion that the higher profile the unblock request is (i.e., getting an ANI thread and multiple rapid responses), the faster a reblock will be issued should the editor in question deviate from all but the most appropriate behavior. In this particular case, I get that there's a pretty long history, and possibly some concerns as to whether the unblock request sufficiently takes ownership of the problems that led to the block. I think in light of Russavia's work at Commons, we can afford to be a little accommodating. Taking ownership of past problems is best, but I don't know if I'd call it so essential as to negate everything and anything else a user could possibly bring to the table. Now, whether the "anything else" Russavia brings to the table is still enough to offset any concerns with the unblock request is, frankly, not one I'm prepared to answer... but I'm personally willing to take the chance based on what I've said above. Yes, there's a long history of problems with this user... but an evident energy and dedication. I'm not willing to say Russavia is either a malefactor, nor am I willing to say Russavia can not contribute positively. And if following the unblock things go back to how they were... again, reblocks are cheap. Those involved might even gain support for a full-on siteban. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 12:28, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose at the moment. Russavia's explanation of his June 2013 block is disingenuous to say the least. He was blocked for trolling and BLP violations. I don't expect him to grovel, but I do expect him to acknowledge this and would like to see a clear statement that he will cease the dramamongering he is rather well known for. Either way, I think Newyorkbrad's topic ban as mentioned here should also be carried forward as a condition of unblocking. Resolute 13:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Just a few notes - I see a very extensive history of problematic behaviour and a remarkable stubbornness and inability to drop an issue when he thinks he is right. However, anyone looking at the unblock request should be aware that a lack of apology for the past is only relevant if it would determine his behaviour in the future - is he likely to make the same mistakes? Animosity over past behaviour must be balanced with the likelihood of recidivism in the future. In the event of an unblock, I would presume that certain editors would be closely monitoring Russavia's behaviour and would not hesitate to reinstate the block. So Russavia would be walking a very fine line. The question is, does his potential positive contributions on Wikipedia outweigh both the effort in monitoring his behaviour and the risk of a recurrence of drama? —Dark 13:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Boing's point has merit in that a quick reblock will likely mitigate a large portion of the drama involved, assuming of course that a potential future block is done promptly and accurately, and is clear-cut. However unfortunately I think we all know that a less optimally placed block may not have the same effect. This is too often the case with high-profile controversial editors. Not to mention that effort must be exerted to monitor his future contributions. My point is that reblocks are much more... expensive than they may appear. —Dark 13:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Based on this users past actions, the act of unblocking itself would lessen wikipedia.--Cube lurker (talk) 14:06, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support – He's a pretty constructive contributor both at Commons and here, and should be given another chance, but an admin should block him if he trolls again or violates his restrictions. Epicgenius (talk) 14:32, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support - We all fuck up on occasions and IMHO we all deserve second chances, or perhaps 3 or 4 chances with some!, He's a constructive editor both on here and Commons and If I'm honest I can't see a repeat happening. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 14:36, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - by my count he has been blocked 14 separate times. What makes anybody think that the next time he is unblocked will be any different than the previous times? He is a serial troll and loves to make personal attacks. Please see the deletion request on Commons for the trolling video (discussion ending about January 1, 2014). Russavia hasn't reformed his style of personal attacks, attacking even the closers on this. He can't admit that he is wrong, even when it is blatantly obvious. And for those who say that it will be a simple matter to block him here if he trolls again, read deletion request carefully and see how long it took, how many cheap shots he took and how many cheap tricks he used to delay the inevitable. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:43, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Can you provide specific links to the personal attacks please. I would also like to note that discussions 6 months ago is perhaps not the best indication of future behaviour. —Dark 14:57, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
    • examples

"He's said all he needs to say? Really? Did you know that I would be well within my rights to sue the pants of Jimmy if I were so inclined. Remember that it is Jimmy who regards these projects as a workplace, and he has publicly accused me of sexual harrassment, without any solid evidence to back it up. In the real world that is called libel. And in the real world, we wouldn't have the peanut gallery and fanboys like we have surrounding this issue, it would be me and him. And things such as this ("I'm actually just a talk page troll.") would be introduced into evidence. As would the multitude of witnesses I would be calling who have been publicly defamed by Jimmy. And then we have his numerous boneheaded tirades against many in the Commons community, and against the community itself, because people in the community dared to question him. So cut it out Colin, Jimmy is far from innocent. Don't like what I have to say? Stiff shit. russavia (talk) 22:14, 17 December 2013 (UTC)" (from hatted section

(further down) "Umm, no, I have never had disputes with Jimmy, I've asked him to supply OTRS once, gave him a couple of user rights here on Commons, and responded to a posting he made on COM:AN, and asked him to comment on a proposal to make it easier for child porn to be reported. That is the extent of my interactions with Jimmy. The whole dispute thing was the invention of User:Newyorkbrad who read some crap on an external site, and when I challenged him on this, he said that I was being ingenious and I should go look at Commons. When I proceeded to challenge the meme that Newyorkbrad pushed, the solution was to indef block me from en.wp. Oh, and I defended Jimmy once on Quora.com when he was being hounded by trolls. Now, if you have evidence of disputes, show me where these disputes are please. Otherwise, if all you have is the above, I must be the nastiest, pettiest and most vindictive son-of-a-bitch ever to walk on the face of this planet. russavia (talk) 14:31, 22 December 2013 (UTC)"

It may not be obvious on that page, but the now removed picture, that appears to be signed by one of the closers, and places the closer in a negative light, was added by Russavia.

As far as Dark's "but that was 6 months ago" complaint. Please allow us to consider what he did six months ago, as well as for the 14 times that he has been blocked here - what else have we got to go on? Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:32, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I see the 6 month period as a mitigating factor. Obviously the discussion is important but only if they determine future conduct. If Russavia had been without issue for 6 months, why could he not do that on this project? —Dark 15:57, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Yes, Russavia has trolled Jimbotalk and poked Jimmy Wales — for which he was punished. He did the crime and has done his time; obviously a repetition of similar behavior will end badly for him. However, Russavia remains a dedicated and productive Wikimedian and is entitled to a reasonable path back to En-WP. Punishments should fit transgressions, bans and blocks should correspond to actual actions and not hysterical anticipations of potential bad actions. If he screws up again, another lengthy block is a simple thing. Carrite (talk) 15:07, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Someone with a long track record of blocks, someone who has attacked and trolled other editors, and someone who doesn't acknowledge the reasons for the legitimate block they are requesting be lifted should not be unblocked. Deli nk (talk) 15:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support Russavia has his big, big share of disputes and problems, but I don't see a big issue in giving him another chance. We can always block him back if he misbehaves (again). → Call me Hahc21 15:48, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support. I've never seen much of a problem with what he was blocked for in the first place (others, obviously, disagree), plus there was much baiting and tainting from the other side as well. At any rate, we would be depriving ourselves of a net positive contributor if we let this block stand.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 9, 2014; 16:20 (UTC)
• On Process If I'm not mistaken, shouldn't this be at WP:AN instead of WP:ANI.--Cube lurker (talk) 16:27, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Arguably it belongs at AN rather than ANI, but it is probably too late to move this discussion bodily over there. I will post a cross-notice instead. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
    • I'm fine with that. Thank you.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:09, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support unblock. I failed to see any reason other than his conflicts with Jimmy here as the block reason. He used Commons for it where he was/is much strong. But we stopped him there. He was de crated and that controversial work was deleted. It is already too late to forget those things. And it is up to him whether or not to make a clean start. Here, in Wikipedia, he is just an editor without any additional rights. Then why afraid to give him a chance? Jee 16:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Firmly Opposed Fool me once... Seriously, we have a stubborn user with a gift for extending disputes for the sake of prolonging the drama who successfully harrassed and humiliated another user to perpetuate a long standing and bitter feud. Are we really so short of home produced drama that we want to extend a welcoming to a user whom I guarantee will actively help to further corrode the toxic editing atmosphere here. I don't see any acknowledgement of the harm or trouble that they caused. Enough surely? Spartaz ^Humbug! 16:43, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: I won't cast a !vote here as, shortly before the indefblock by Spartaz, I imposed a sanction against Russavia pursuant to the BLP special enforcement provision, prohibiting him from making any edits or uploading any images concerning Jimmy Wales. Since the indefblock on English Wikipedia, as noted above, Russavia continued to pursue what I perceive as harassment and trolling of Jimmy Wales on Commons for several months, suggesting to me that he did not accept that his conduct in the Pricasso matter was disgraceful. Separately, Russavia has been using his English Wikpedia talkpage (to which he has had continued access) to (among other things) draw attention to on-wiki copyright violations. In and of itself, that is commendable and is certainly a more productive use of talkpage access than we see from a lot of other indefblocked users. However, in one instance, Russavia pointed out a copyvio from the Encyclopedia Britannia; the copyvio was deleted from the current version of our article, but not from every previous version (it affected enough versions that removing all of them would have compromised the attribution history); when an administrator declined to go back and rev-delete every previous version, Russavia stated on-wiki last month that he "contacted EB on 13 May 2014 to inform them of this copyright violation, and the community's seeming[] refusal to deal with it appropriately." While I can imagine that one might in good faith contact a copyright owner if Wikipedia was refusing to address a copyright violation in a fashion that posed a serious and immediate threat to the value and integrity of the subject intellectual property, that was not what was going on here, and I have absolutely no idea why Russavia acted as he did, except to cause trouble. I also note with disapproval that this past weekend, in connection with Wikimedia mailing list discussion of a poorly written and error-laden magazine article about a recent Wikiconference, Russavia suggested that "[t]here is the option of contacting [the reporter] directly, or the chief editor of the magazine, for further comment/clarification. Or the Wikipedia way--create a totally neutral on-project biography. ;)" Despite the "smilie," any such suggestion that we would create a BLP of a journalist in retaliation for the journalist's coverage is severely out of order. BLPs must never be created or edited as a form of retaliation against the article subject or misused in connection with an off-wiki dispute, nor may any suggestion of doing so be made at any time. If Russavia is to be unblocked, which I'm not personally convinced is the best idea, it should be with appropriate restrictions bearing in mind the types of issues with which he has been involved to this point. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

  My impression on the mailing list comment is that it was made in jest. However whether it is advisable to make such a comment even in jest is questionable, sometimes things are better left unsaid or maybe to a more appropriate audience. —Dark 17:07, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I, too, took the mailing list comment as ironic impersonation - mocking Wikipedia's propensity to be used to torture one's enemies. But you know irony and the internet.

As for his contacting Britannica about us hosting a copyright violation in the article's history: That was done after requests for clarification or RevDel were either dismissed or ignored by User:GorillaWarfare, User:Tom Morris and legal@wikimedia.org. I wonder if it would have progressed to that if someone had explained the situation to him as User:Moonriddengirl later took the trouble to. Regardless, that he alerted Britannica to (what he perceived to be) a violation of their rights is no reason to ban him from contributing here. If there were dozens of encyclopedias sitting at the top of Google for just about every query we could act like a cult and exclude critics. While Wikipedia enjoys a monopoly, we don't enjoy the right to exclude anyone for expressing concerns about the project to non-Scientologists non-Wikipedians.

I'll support a permanent ban from this project (and all other projects) if his future behaviour shows he hasn't learned the difference between critique and using the project to perpetrate a gross sexualised insult. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:44, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Since my name has appeared, I should note for the record that Russavia did tell me about the copyvio over IRC. Alas, I have been quite busy in real life recently, so didn't get a chance to look into it. I have no strong opinion on Russavia's unblock. —Tom Morris (talk) 09:13, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support unblock pace NYB's valid comments. Russavia will be on a short leash, I have no doubt. Drmies (talk) 17:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support (and assume the NYB restriction remains in place.)--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:15, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock - The unblock request doesn't actually cover the real reasons for his block, so there is no evidence that they see the reason for their block or any promises to abide by the rules so they don't get blocked again. I'd like to see a proper unblock request that actually speaks to those reasons. Canterbury Tail talk 17:38, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose After his polandball racism, the penis paintings, I am surprised anyone actually takes anything he says seriously. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:01, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support with some reservations and a very short length of rope, including some restrictions discussed above. We ARE here to build an encyclopedia, and on a good day Russavia has proven he is helpful towards that end. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Judging by his actions while blocked, unblocking him would only lead to even more waste of time and energy. Too bad en.wp can't do something about his antics on Commons as well. —Neotarf (talk) 19:05, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strongest possible oppose Russavia isn't here to build an encyclopedia anymore, Russavia is here to challenge what we're willing to accept in the form of decency and advocate the free culture. There are two camps, those that view Russavia as starting drama and those who view the reaction to Russavia's actions as disruption. I'm in the camp that believes Russavia is fully aware of how his actions will be perceived and either has poor judgement or willful disinterest in the good of this project and is the cause of the disruption himself. I find him callous, full of himself, and rude. Further, Russavia has proven that he cannot work within the confines of any restriction placed on him, proposals above for any sort of condition for his unblock are folly and unwise. We can look at his history to know how any restriction he agrees to will end. His block log reads:
  • "Please don't use talk page to announce an intention to sock"
  • "Violating the ban from interacting with Volunteer Marek"
  • "Eastern Europe topic ban violation"
  • "Continued violation of TBAN on talk page, TBAN Per AE report"
  • "Violation of interaction ban"
  • "Interaction ban violation"
  • "Violation of unblock terms (Posting at AC/N). User will be unblocked when and if an ArbComm request concerning the mailing list incident occurs."
  • "Making legal threats: This wikilawyering has gone on long enough"
  • "Violation of Soviet history topic ban while blocked by soapboxing on own talk page"

Frankly, Russavia is incapable of respecting any restriction set on him. He has zero self control. There is no arguing here, we have ample history to judge him by. Any positive contributions Russavia was capable of providing the encyclopedia has long since expired. He has dug himself into such a hole that it would take a paradigm shift of enormous proportions to return to the type of character traits that are beneficial to the encyclopedia and to lose the ones that lead him to disruptive behavior. No no no, do not unblock.--v/r - TP 19:21, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose. Above, Newyorkbrad has shown nicely that nothing about Russavia has changed since the last time he was blocked. Nothing good will come of this. --Conti|✉ 20:50, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strong support. This is an extremely productive user with a large number of high-quality contributions, many of which are in much-neglected areas of Wikipedia. We cannot afford not to take advantage of his knowledge and productivity - after all, building a comprehensive, high quality comprehensive encyclopaedia is our goal. It is now well past "time served" for this user. I'd like to note that, during his time in the enwiki "jail", he has been very active in Wikimedia Commons, where he has uploaded an astronomical amount of high-quality photographs among other contributions. It is now time to let English Wikipedia profit from this user as well. It makes no sense to continue confining him to Commons and deprive our encyclopaedia of his high-quality contributions. Nanobear (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Newyorkbrad's analysis. The unblock request indicates that Russavia does not realise the magnitude of his previous behaviour, and if we unblock we would likely see that behaviour repeated. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 22:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support per Nanobear. Overall, I believe that this user will be a net positive if unblocked. I don't question the idea that he has problems: that's blatantly obvious, but he has more positives than problems. On top of that, some of the "oppose" rationales are nonsense; for example, Polandball was definitely not racist: it was an intra-European thing, not to mention the fact that writing about racism doesn't necessarily make you racist. Nyttend (talk) 22:12, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support basically what Nick said. Legoktm (talk) 22:13, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support In dubio pro reo. --Steinsplitter (talk) 22:15, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support unblock Russavia has made some fine contributions, provided he can manage to keep himself on the straight and narrow (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) unblocking will be a positive. I am sure that given the high profile, a reblock will be swift, if necessary. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 22:21, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose unblock. I don't believe that Russavia has the best interests of Wikipedia in mind, and is unlikely to be a net positive if unblocked here. He's done valuable work on Commons, but has also more than occasionally engaged in behavior that would likely bring him a civility block if he had done so here, not to mention his prior block record. Additionally, his unblock request doesn't meaningfully address the reasons he was blocked in the first place, and with anyone other than Russavia, would likely have been procedurally declined. Best, Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:28, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Brad and per TParis. Russavia hasn't changed a bit, from what I can see. Also, massive time-wasting dramaz follow him wherever he goes - Alison ^❤ 22:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support Drama has always been part and parcel of wikimedia Allie, its probably what makes this place interesting. I'm not a big fan of him on commons but over the last year or so, He has proven to be a good editor and I always believe in second chances. Some of the work he does on commons, having access to enwiki can help the wiki greatly...--Stemoc (talk) 23:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I believe in second chances too, sometimes third chances. How many is Russavia on? Right off the block on his last 'second chance', he paid to have a painting made of Jimbo with a penis and then edit warred to keep the picture on Wikipedia. What is he going to do immediately after this unblock request?--v/r - TP 23:20, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Give Jimbo a vag?...in all seriousness, the word '2nd chances' is a loosely used term, everyone on wiki atleast once was given a second chance, heck some even went on to become admins. The one good thing is that he can always be blocked again, its not like he is a 'vandal-only' account, he has over 70,000 edits to this wiki, most of which is good. If we started blocking users for having opinions, there would be no wikipedia..we have to assume good faith here. If we continue to ban experienced editors, what example are we actually setting for future editors?..--Stemoc (talk) 23:43, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
      • This is NOT a second chance. By my - albeit crude count - they've already been given roughly 20(!) chances.[1] Are you saying that everyone deserves 20(!) seconds chances? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me twenty times? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:58, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
        • "we have to assume good faith here" No assumptions are needed. You do not have to assume something when you have history and facts to demonstrate something. Simply look at the user's history once unblocked, look at their willingness to abide by any restriction we place on them, look at their disregard for the community's time, and their disrespectful approach to the community. Russavia treats himself as a distinguished editor who deserves to edit here and acts as if he is the project's lone savior against prudes and censors so much so that he can't accept when the community feels he has gone too far.--v/r - TP 00:04, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Deli nk, Spartaz, Only in death does duty end, and many others. I would suggest instead that we limit this user to make such requests otherwise they will continue to waste the community's time. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:18, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock, per others, especially Newyorkbrad. Given that Russavia was involved in epic-scale trolling on his talk page related to a copyright issue just three weeks ago, assertions that he has "done his time" seem rather premature. (And those familiar with my own history will be aware that I am far from being one of those "all copyright is stealing from humanity" wingnuts.) Deliberately creating pointless drama is a recurring theme, and one which seems – based on recent evidence – unlikely to abate. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:35, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• oppose per the extensive history of drama and bad behavior. The need to keep him on a short leash is reason enough not to reopen the cage at all. Mangoe (talk) 00:10, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose The only thing we know for sure is that an unblocked Russavia would end up at the center of more drama. Regarding the suggestion that a reblock could occur, the problem is that some people are expert at expanding boundaries. Is anyone going to block Russavia if he goes to Jimbo's talk and says "Hi, I'm back!". How about something more pointed? There is no way a block for gentle poking would work, so an unblock means there will be more polandballs or pointed paintings or whatever. Johnuniq (talk) 01:40, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Horrendous block log for a variety of offenses. I see no sincere intention to change his disruptive behavior. The very notion that he will somehow stop trolling after yet another unblock is interesting. I know of very few "reformed" trolls. None actually, but YMMV. I certainly don't believe that this editor is reformed from his penchant for trolling. He glosses over his extensive disruption as engaging in "some controversies", wanting to "continue to engage as a good faith member of our community". I do not buy that. This thread has no realistic chance of achieving a consensus to unblock. Maybe a supportive admin should just boldly unblock him and we can watch the same show all over again? Doc talk 02:45, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. The quotes presented by Smallbones clinch the matter for me. Russavia continues to harbor a poisonous grudge which is a toxin we do not need at Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 03:48, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - Russavia's block log tells a story of broken promises. Every single entry that is a "violation" is Russavia going against an agreement. So for anyone who suggests that Russavia is going to behave this time, what is different now from every single other time? I think that it's about time we say, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me a dozen times, shame on the community". -- Atama頭 05:18, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. During his absence from this project, Russavia has continued to troll and disrupt elsewhere, and I don't see any indication that this particular leopard has changed its spots (for reference, see his recent contributions to his talk page and on wikimedia-l). Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 09:24, 10 June 2014 (UTC).
• Strong Oppose in the most serious terms enough has been said. Enough has been done. No reason for return. satusuro 10:06, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. The unblock request is ingenuous to the point of dishonesty; the mailing list comments regarding the writer of an unfavorable press piece show the same attitude toward abusive content that led to the current, well-deserved block. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 11:11, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - being a 'good' editor is not nearly enough of an excuse to try and justify DICKish behaviour. He's been given enough chances in the past and blown them all - now it's too late. GiantSnowman 11:19, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Brad and per my unpleasantly vivid memory of the Pricasso affair. I don't care if that was a year ago, I do not believe Russavia has become a reformed character in that space of time. Recent editing of his talkpage doesn't suggest it either, to my eyes. Incidentally I've removed a trolling oppose from an IP above, about what Russavia is like in real life and about how "he must be punished". The IP is requested to use their account if they want to post crap like that. Bishonen | talk 13:47, 10 June 2014 (UTC).
• Oppose per NYBrad, TParis and the mighty Bishonen.--MONGO 14:00, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I am not sure I can say any more than has already been said above. This is really just a not good idea. -DJSasso (talk) 14:08, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose unblocking. I see nothing that suggests that Russavia's behavior will be any different in the future than it has been in the past. His behavior did not improve after his multiple prior blocks, and it would be foolish of us to expect otherwise this time. -- Ed (Edgar181) 14:11, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I can't see any evidence that he has changed or that the problems won't continue if he's unblocked. Dougweller (talk) 14:13, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Djsasso. Graham87 14:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Content contribution is not a free pass to act badly. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:53, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose serious issues resulted in the ban, his life on Commons isnt as rosie as its being said he lost that communities trust in August[2] but a person can operate a on Commons without issue even totally isolated from much of the community as it doesnt have the collaborative demands necessary to write content. Gnangarra 15:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose no real indication that problems won't continue, TParis and NYB summed up the issue quite well.--Staberinde (talk) 15:51, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too much drama, no indication provided that anything will change. Gamaliel (talk) 17:04, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Suggestion - Unblock only for the purpose of allowing Russavia to appeal his block to ArbCom. If ArbCom declines to hear the case, reblock. If ArbCom agrees to hear the case, leave him unblocked in order to present his case to ArbCom. If he engages in personal attacks or trolling while the ArbCom case is in progress, ArbCom can take into account, and can decide to ban. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:19, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
  • On a practical level, arbcom usually handles block/ban appeals over email, not the case pages. An unblock isn't needed for him to email arbcom. On a different level If there's signifigant consensus that the community doesn't support an unblock IMHO it's be inappropriate for arbcom to over rule the will of the community.--Cube lurker (talk) 18:40, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I can't see Arb accepting the case anyway. Clearly the community is capable of dealing with the issue, and Arb doesn't accept a case unless the community is incapable. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:43, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support unblock We do have some editors that give good service and who also cause some trouble. I missed what he did this time at the time, but I feel that there'll be so many people watching him like shitehawks that he won't have much chance to do very much wrong before it gets stopped. Peridon (talk) 19:59, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. In addition to my reasons stated on Russavia's talk page, I should mention that the editor stated an intention to "look at having topic ban removed" for Aeroflot; this implies that the editor is interested in returning to areas where he caused problems before. I echo the comments bade by Spartaz, TParis, and Newyorkbrad above. Also restating the obvious, Russavia can continue to contribute to the project on his talk page and on Wikimedia Commons. (edit conflict) - tucoxn\^talk 21:50, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: Nothing in Russavia's recent behavior either here or on Commons convinces me that he won't immediately resume drama-mongering. --Carnildo (talk) 22:34, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Many editors, myself included, have wasted far too much time analyzing Russavia, searching without success for indications that he is not really a highly sophisticated troll. He has had a score of "second chances", and always returns to disruptive behavior. Enough is enough. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:29, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
• Is there any reason he still has talk page access? —Neotarf (talk) 07:29, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support unblock I've had some limited interraction with Russavia and he certainly seems committed to the project. Sure, his past behavior has been aberrative on occasion, but if we lift the block he's going to have a lot of eyes on him; as Anthonyhcole says right at the start of this discussion, "Block him again if he trolls again". IMHO, no editor can have too many chances, providing that their overall contribution to the project is a net positive.  Philg88 ^♦talk 07:41, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Enough time has been wasted on this drama magnet. — Scott • talk 17:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Enough trolling is enough. No sign at all that the user understands and has moved on from past behaviour. Note also this diff, in which arbitrator Roger Davies suggests that Russavia, in his dialogue with ArbCom that led to his unblock last time, promised to turn over a new leaf and in fact did no such thing. (Pinging Roger in case I am in any way misreading him.) I see no reason we should believe him this time with that track record. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 02:43, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

  Nope, you're not misreading me at all,  Roger Davies ^talk 07:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

  This is one of those threads that has not a snowball's chance in Hell of succeeding. How much longer can we keep it open, knowing the inevitable? 'Til Hell freezes over! I look forward to further, extended discussion on this thread. He's really quite close to gaining an unblock here, clearly. Doc talk 06:51, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• Fully understanding that this is not a !vote, and not analyzing at all the strengths of the various arguments (well beyond my capability), a simple headcount at this moment shows:
  • Oppose - 41
  • Support - 21
  • Other - 6

That's not in "snow" territory, but it's not close (on the count alone) to a consensus to unblock. BMK (talk) 07:43, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

There's a minor (but important) difference between "no consensus to unblock", and "consensus is to not unblock" ... the panda ₯’ 09:21, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, except that since being blocked is the default condition here, they wind up with the same result. And just to note, none of the !votes above are mine - I have no dog in this huint. BMK (talk) 10:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I have no !vote above either :-) the panda ₯’ 19:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd just like to note that the closing admin(s) should, in conjunction with presenting a compelling rationale for their decision, set the process and terms and conditions for future unblock requests on this matter (assuming of course that they decide that there exists no consensus to unblock which seems likely). —Dark 14:24, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Sounds way more complicated than it really is. "There is no consensus, leaning towards oppose. Russavia should take note of the discussion to address any concerns and reapply in 6 months." The closer has ZERO AUTHORITY to set conditions for a future unblock request. I would likely revert any closer than attempted to fix conditions in the close. That is outside the scope of the role and outside of any policy that I'm aware of. It isn't a supervote, afterall. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:34, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes and no. No, the closing admin doesn't have any authority written in policy. However, if the closer finds that there is enough discussion about conditions here, which there arn't really, then they could have authority in WP:CONSENSUS to do so. Even then, if the closer feels that the community has had enough, they could invokve an WP:IAR authority. Then it's a matter of if the community objects enough. If not, then silence means consensus.--v/r - TP 17:24, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

You are correct that if the closer is summarizing consensus, that is different than imposing unilateral rules. As for IAR in a case like this, a number of people would revert a close with terms outside the discussion, however. WP:IAR does allow for such a thing, but that is a rare thing that would never be likely to stand in a high profile case like this. So you are technically correct, but practice would never see it. I still feel a close similar to what I provided would be sufficient, the discussion pretty much speaks for itself. The situation is complicated, but there are enough articulate and well thought out votes here that the message is clear: no real consensus, but it is leaning oppose. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:34, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, it's a yes and no. I'm one of the sysops that has involved IAR on a topic like this in the past and been successful; several times in fact. I don't know if I'd do it here. But this is really an issue of WP:BEANS. The topic hasn't been brought up before, but now that it has been brought up we're likely to discuss it. I'd support a 6-month moratorium on future unblock requests (I'd support a year too). A closing sysop can see these late changes in a discussion and weight them differently. Arguments brought up late in a discussion and widely supported after that point should be weighed much more strongly than arguments brought up earlier. Who knows, by even talking about what the closing sysop should do, and saying they shouldn't impose restrictions, this may have opened up the discussion necessary to actually achieve consensus for those restrictions.--v/r - TP 18:38, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I would support a 6-month or 1-year moratorium on future unblock requests. - tucoxn\^talk 23:23, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I, too, would support a 6-month or 1-year moratorium on future unblock requests, preferably the latter. This user's misconduct has been a huge time sink and determent to the project. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:43, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

As this is the only unban request in a year, putting a restriction would be punitive and I would react as such. This is twisting the knife, and a solution where there is no problem. He hasn't been peppering WP:AN with requests every month. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:00, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough - but I still don't see any unblock request being effective within six months.--v/r - TP 00:12, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Russavia has been punished with a lengthy block, which I think has been good enough for now. Russavia was a definite net positive to the project, but sadly his occasional nonsense got in the way. I personally believe that after unblocking Russavia will keep the nonsense to himself since this is more than likely to be his last chance to be welcome here. Unblocks are cheap, if Russavia continues to be disruptive after being unblocked he can just as easily be reblocked. Not even sure if my opinion will matter since the consensus looks like people want him to stay blocked. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 15:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Unblocks for relatively unknown editors with hardly any history are cheap. Unblocks for editors who have been around as long as Russavia have, have as much history as he has, and are as controversial as he is are very expensive. They cost community time, patience, sanity, and resources. Any future block, as a violation of unblock conditions, his topic bans, or other rationale, are all going to be controversial no matter how legitimate they are and will be heavily debated and cause high tensions. We don't need more of that.--v/r - TP 17:20, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Also, since blocks aren't supposed to be punitive, the block is in place to prevent Russavia from causing further disruption, not to punish him. Because of that, the situation shouldn't really be viewed as "he's done his time, now unblock him". G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 19:25, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - too problematic of a history and given the topic area in relation to current events, maybe its just me but I dont see this going down well. --LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 00:45, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
• Neutral. I remember the controversy that got him blocked. The way Russavia's unblock request puts it, he got blocked because Jimbo was offended by his article, not because of anything that Russavia himself did. That doesn't inspire confidence that his behavior will change. If he rewrote his appeal to more readily address his own behavior, that would be more compelling. Maybe next time? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:45, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Sorry, not trying to put words in your mouth,but your comment appears to be more of the "opposed" nature than "neutral". BMK (talk) 04:28, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
    • It's OK. It does read a bit that way, doesn't it? I'm fine either way, but I can't personally vote to support an unblock based on the current wording. Maybe he'll amend it or take this whole ANI discussion into consideration for his next appeal. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:35, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose While somewhat moot at this point given the consensus against unblocking above, I note that Russavia did not apologise or acknowledge his errors in the unblock request, and is basically asking to be unblocked because the events occurred a while ago and he hasn't been grinding this particular axe. The odds of him continuing his disruptive behaviour if unblocked seem to be pretty high. Nick-D (talk) 10:27, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Something new

If the request for an unblock failed, and Russavia started editing with another account, what should we do? bobrayner (talk) 22:47, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

This is his second sockpuppet, and he has used an IP sock as well, those sock contributions ought to be nuked and Russavia community banned. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:36, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Who else besides This cowboy's running from himself (talk · contribs) has he used? Doc talk 08:55, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

According to the SPI, Russavia has edited with at least 2 sockpuppets

• during the appeal of his indefinite block - 195 edits, and
• Immediately after the appeal was closed against him - 304 edits. Also
• Another and
• Still another have been blocked as suspected sockpuppets of Russavia, though I haven't seen anything on the SPI yet.

I would guess that part of Russavia's sockpuppeting is due in part to anger management issues, and in part due to his wish to just express his contempt of the community. In any case, that is a lot of anger and a lot of contempt. I'll propose that his access to his talk page here be cut off, but that he make a brief statement on his Commons talk page, which we can link to here.

Note under WP:CBAN is the paragraph

• In some cases the community may have discussed an indefinite block and reached a consensus of uninvolved editors not to unblock the editor. Editors who remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community are considered "banned by the Wikipedia community".

This says that he is already community banned, but I should check here to see if I'm reading this correctly. If he is not already community banned, I propose that we do it now, for all the above reasons, and for the reasons expressed in the unblock request. Finally, I'll suggest that Russavia will abide by the ban, as he will understand that there are methods (e.g. action by the community at Commons, or WMF foundation action) that the ban can be extended to Commons. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 12:57, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Smallbones That's straying dangerous close to a personal attack, accusing a user of having anger management issues. Please redact the relevant sections of your comment. Nick (talk) 13:13, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that is breaching personal attack territory. The intent didn't come across as an "attack" for starters, it was offering a possible explanation. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:39, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I second NIck's perception, Dennis. I have refrained from participating in any russavia fiestas on Wiki, but the "I would guess..." sentence in Smallbones' say is a paragon of lack of good faith, if I ever saw one before. It's good enough to include in a Wikipedia help page on the subject. ;) And I have been editing as mareklug since July 2005, and for years before that as an IP. Russavia's edits, if I may intercede here to balance the scales, strike me as motivated by a burning desire to contribute excellent quality missing content to Wikimedia projects, English Wikipedia, Commons, or wherever. I have never seen him contribute idiotic drivel, or useless, random vandalizing content. Granted, some of what he has contributed is beyond the pale in the eyes of many reasonable observers; I do not deny that. But when Russavia provides rare aviation photographs to have them added to articles, or starts an article on an airline, well, hit me with a rhythm stick ($1 to Ian Drury), but why are those edits to be removed, and where do you see, Smallbones, anger management issues in those? Jesus Christ, please open your eyes, Dear WikiCommunity: People are complicated, and we have a proverb in Illinois: don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Cordially, --Mareklug ^talk 13:57, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

When the baby starts actively flouting the house rules, he or she gets grounded. That's what we've done here. We've grounded Russavia. And given that his flouting of the house rules has extended to socking, a particularly fundamental violation, it's clear that his grounding should not be ended any time soon. (To clarify, no, I am not calling Russavia a baby, only continuing the baby and bathwater metaphor in the previous quote.) Heimstern Läufer (talk) 09:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support formal Site Ban for socking. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:55, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

About the same time as this discussion was going on, there was another discussion below enforcing the sox blox. I think that's all that needs to be done now. The paragraph from WP:CBAN that I quoted above stands, and it has become very clear that Russavia has given himself a community ban, well beyond our poor power to do so. And then he has underlined the ban by his expressions of contempt for the community by his quadruple socking. I would appreciate it if an admin blocks his access to his talkpage here, and places Russavia on the list of indefinitely banned users. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:44, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I told you people so, exactly a year ago. But would anybody listen? Pfft.... — Scott • talk 00:05, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I have reblocked with talk page access removed. Removing unlock requests, discussions of disruption, and the SPI investigation announcement, with the edit summary "if it doesn't relate to creation or curation of content, it doesn't belong here"[3] indicates that he doesn't seem to realise what a talk page of an indef blocked user is supposed to be used for, or what is expected to even consider unblocking sometime in the future. Fram (talk) 07:08, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support formal site ban. Block him, clean off his talk page, lock it to administrators only and let him use the email system if he really thinks he can convince people to waste more time on him. It'll be easier to ignore him if he's emailing everyone than if he's being disruptive with his talk page. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:00, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

There is precedent for the community ban of prolific editors of content. No matter how many contributions and high quality those contributions are, there is only so much that can be tolerated before they're asked to move along. Many may remember user:Mbz1 who produced and contributed significant numbers of high quality images for the encyclopedia, but was c-banned for continued and sustained harassment of another editor amongst other things. Blackmane (talk) 14:16, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment - There is also precedent for the site ban of prolific content editors by the ArbCom. An example is Kiefer.Wolfowitz, who was banned for personal attacks. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:34, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment As Smallbones notes, knife-twisting aside, he is now de-facto banned. Formalizing a ban does have its purposes, but he cannot use his talk page anymore and any unblock will not be accepted without community or ArbCom approval, so there is not much use for a formal ban.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• Further comment I believe the formality involves the option to revert on sight without worrying about the delicacies of 3RR. Blackmane (talk) 13:17, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• Have any of his edits been anything but constructive? If the only problem with his edits is that he is making them while blocked, then the revert exemption is not of any interest at the moment. Unless he continues socking and those socks do things that are not simply constructive editing, there is no basis for formalizing a ban.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• It's hard to say, and I personally am not going to review these edits. But they tend to be insertions of images which I must presume he has uploaded to commons, and given that this has been one focus of the problems with him, I wouldn't object to reversion of such edits without consideration. Mangoe (talk) 18:28, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• There are no "problems with him" that would suggest media he uploads to Commons or adds from Commons would be generally problematic. Matters where there have been "problems" are singular incidents where the issue was a subject of some controversy and required significant discussion. Indeed, some of those matters reflect a cultural divide between Commons and the English Wikipedia.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:49, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• Can't decide I really dislike Russavia's behavior since Arbcom accepted his unblock request a year ago. I don't want to see him back until that changes. But, he is a prolific content contributor and we can all agree he has the same goals as the goals of this project. I opposed an unblock request, but I do not want to rule out a return to constructive editing completely if he should decide that his previous disruption isn't worth it.--v/r - TP 18:59, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Now up to sock 5 or 6

I propose all edits made by Russavia`s socks are nuked, allowing his edits to stand will only encourage him to continue socking.

• Support as nom Darkness Shines (talk) 18:08, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support nuking all sock edits, as a reasonable extension of the rule for speedy deletion of articles created by socks of blocked users. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:59, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose If one can't find anything wrong with the edit then it should stay.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:20, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Really? Cos he just created yet another sock. Either he is banned from editing or he is not, which is it? Darkness Shines (talk) 22:27, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm with Mendaliv on this, in short.

He's not banned, he is blocked (at the time of writing). The edits he is making are of a high quality, not controversial and most importantly, do not continue the pattern of misbehaviour shown by his main account. What is more, it has been indicated to Russavia that he is not infinitely blocked (as noted by the closing administrator, above) let alone banned.

I have restored the edits you and SuperMarioMan have reverted with a suitable edit summary, noting they were initially made by a blocked user. It seems unnecessarily destructive to remove good edits in the hope it will persuade Russavia not to sockpuppet and it seems a silly waste of your time running around reverting after him. Nick (talk) 22:56, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• Meh I'm fine with reverting contribs that are not clearly positive without having to argue about it. Basically the banned status means you don't really have to discuss it. But if someone else wants to keep the material, or the revert would be to a clearly worse version... then why would you revert? Lowering the quality of Wikipedia is a bad idea. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 22:49, 19 June 2014 (UTC) (see below)
  • Nick is absolutely correct: Russavia has not been formally banned. Thus, the whole automatic revert provision doesn't even apply anyway. That said, I still think it's probably fine to undo any edits by Russavia socks that are not clearly positive without requiring much more of an explanation than that it was by a sockpuppet of a blocked user. But even those that aren't clearly positive (i.e., also aren't clearly negative), should another editor want to take responsibility for those edits, I see no problem with such an editor restoring the edits by Russavia (or those of anyone else for that matter). Cf. WP:PROXYING. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 23:31, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support - Any editor who believes one of the deleted edits is helpful can revert the deletion, thus taking on all the responsibility for that edit to themselves. That Russavia's not formally banned is totally irrelevant - this is simply another sanction additional to the indef block, that all edits can be reverted on sight. BMK (talk) 23:37, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Honestly, I question whether this specific sanction makes the situation at all functionally different from a full-blown siteban. If not, I think there should be a clear proposal calling for one. If we're gonna call ducks ducks, we shouldn't call the birdshot we use to bag 'em "feather rufflers". —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 23:43, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose, this is what is wrong with Wikipedia, back stabbing, back biting and moreso, Grudges..if we stop allowing users from adding information to wikipedia, then it would be better idea to shut down the wiki completely..Yes he is socking, yes i'm not happy with the idea but I have always supported editors that were ruthlessly banned by the wikipedia "cabal"..big deal he pissed Jimbo off, so stop brown nosing your way to the top, as it has been happening for years now... the Enwiki has become a disgrace over the years and people like the OP is not helping, stop crying and grow up, he should have been unblocked in the first place, he does MORE good to WIKIMEDIA than most of the 'supporters' combined on this noticeboard..it is true what they say, Wikipedia creates vandals, they turn good editors INTO vandals...if we started removing stuff added by BANNED editors just because they are BANNED and not because their edits were useful, we would be left with NOTHING.--Stemoc (talk) 03:54, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• As predicted, Now we have an admin (SuperMarioMan) deleting articles that were created by Russavia just because the article was created by a blocked editor and not because the articles themselves were vandalism. They weren't, one was restored by another admin whereas the 2nd one has been protected from re-creation. I'm sorry but when admins become vandals themselves by deleting "legit" and notable articles, that is where i draw the line ...--Stemoc (talk) 03:05, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment- I don't think that they should be nuked, I wouldn't support that. Although, whoever wants to remove those edits they can remove them by themselves. Whoever wants them to stay, they can simply re-write. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 08:41, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
• Now also editing as ArgentinaSquarepants (talk · contribs) -  Confirmed and blocked - Alison ^❤ 23:47, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• That account (and others of Russavia) has attempted to create a new article, which is a well written article but does indeed meet the speedy deletion critieria (Polish Information and Foreign Investment Agency). It has been deleted a total of four times now by SuperMarioMan. Just wondering what others thoughts are on articles rather than individual edits. Nick (talk) 15:00, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• Technically, the speedy deletion criteria are easily met, though I think it would be good to have a discussion over whether the article subject otherwise meets the deletion criteria. If an article on the subject would be appropriate then it would be good to allow its restoration and just try to get other editors to review it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:25, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• Abstain I'm just wondering if anyone has asked him directly what's going on. And I mean over Skype for a face-to-face discussion, if not in person. Is it possible that he feels like no one is listening so he's just getting louder? I don't know much about this case, but if you're reading this Russavia and you're down to talk about whatever, you can drop me a note at wllm@wllm.com. I represent no one but myself. I have no authority. But I have ears.     -wʃʃʍ-     09:15, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again, but when we find ourselves fighting to prevent people improving the encyclopedia then we need to take a serious look at what we're trying to do here - deliberately damaging the encyclopedia to win an ego war against an officially-sanctioned unperson is just plain stupid. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:32, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Boing. So he socks to create good content. Der. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:30, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

  Exactly! My thinking is that blocks are to prevent disruption, so if someone is blocked and socks to create disruption-free good content - hey, the block is working! -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:47, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - per Boing. Concentrate on the edits, not the editor. Carrite (talk) 13:56, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Someone is either blocked or they aren't. As per BMK , any editor who feels that an edit is valuable and worth preserving can put their money where their mouth is and revert the removal, taking responsibility for the quality of the edit themselves. Gamaliel (talk) 14:21, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

  Well then, why not cut out the middleman? When good content is seen to be added, rather than deleting it because of who added it and waiting for someone else to reinstate it - just don't delete it! Take joint responsibility for good content by not removing it in the first place, the way every one of us does whenever we read something here and don't change it. Don't delete it, don't come bleating here about the naughty man who's been helping make things better when he's supposed to be grounded, just be happy that someone has made things better. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:47, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

  • The onus for advocating for those edits and verifying whether or not the edits are in fact good content should rest on those who wish to have those edits included, as with all edits on Wikipedia. Gamaliel (talk) 04:10, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

And what I'm saying is take on that onus is a positive way by looking at the edits and not reverting them if they're not problematic - that would be far more constructive than assuming they must be bad just because of who did them and removing them, and leaving it for someone else to revert. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:59, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

If an editor wishes to willingly assume that double obligation, I support that, but those who advocate on behalf of those edits should not demand that the obligation rest on others. Gamaliel (talk) 15:55, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - per Boing. I'll assume the edits are good, and it seems foolish to delete them if so. But the socks have gotta be blocked and a site ban proposal should be started, as this socking activity makes a mockery of our process. Actions should have meaningful consequences, and socking after a block needs to be dealt with firmly. Jusdafax 21:52, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

  Perhaps our process deserves a little mockery? Just a thought. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:13, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per Boing - At the end of the day the socking is a joke and something seriously needs to be done about it (No idea what tho!), But as noted above he does improve the encyclopedia and I think nuking his edits creates more problems than we can deal with!. –Davey2010 • (talk) 21:58, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Stemoc, Boing and Nick. Seriously, why are people requesting and checkusers actioning SPI requests for edits which are high quality edits? That is dangerously close to being a violation of the checkuser policy. Suspecting that they are a 'returned user' is not a good reason; you must provide evidence that they are repeating the same problems as caused the initial block. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 01:18, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Russavia: Formal site ban proposal

Based on the above discussion, it appears the community should discuss this option. It may be helpful to note that as far as I can recall I have never interacted with Russavia. Jusdafax 22:44, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support - As proposer. It comes down to this: are we to draw a line about blatant socking after a block, or not? And if not, why not? Should socking be allowed for some, or all? I say it stops here, now. Jusdafax 23:03, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• How, pray tell, are you going to stop him from socking? Other than severely restricting general access to Wikipedia, there are no viable methods to block a determined and savvy sock-puppeteer. All you can do is hope that repeatedly blocking his socks discourages him. Formalizing a ban has no impact on that.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:01, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

A formal ban is indeed discouraging to Sockmasters. With checkuser and sockpuppet investigations, you shut down the socks as they are detected. This is how we have always done it. Not to do so now establishes a two-tier system, with "good content providers" at the top and free from consequences. But who decides what the parameters for that definition is? Is there a grey area here for "pretty good content providers" and do we debate that definition endlessly? No, in my view what you and others here appear to advocate is anarchy. I thought carefully before advocating a site ban, and my conclusion was that since I don't know this editor at all and was uninvolved with what appears to be a longstanding, multifaceted dispute, that I had better put this option on the table. We either have rules here or we don't. It's time to decide which it is. Jusdafax 04:54, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose and unblock Russavia. It deals with the socking, it also gives us good content. Nick (talk) 00:08, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose- with vandals, its always an "open and shut case", they come, they vandalise, they get caught, they get banned, they come back with another sock and so on..the key word there is "vandalise", unless you can tell me explicitly where the Russsocks have vandalized, I really don't see why there needs to be a site ban, as you said Jusdafax, you don't know him. The pile-on support for his ban from enwiki above is the "lowest' wikipedia has fallen where it tries to justify banning someone who is doing more good than harm by using his/her history against them...If you don't allow people to change, then as i mentioned on my post earlier, you are just creating more vandals...wikipedia's policy on this needs to change ASAP..as the saying goes, "Supervillains are just misunderstood Superheroes"... hehe--Stemoc (talk) 01:06, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - To put it shortly - We need brilliant editors, and he's a brilliant editor. –Davey2010 • (talk) 01:24, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - there is a significant amount of personal animus present in the anti-Russavia campaign, and this has been present for years. In my opinion this has been key to stoking the long-term issues, building community distrust, and generally creating bad outcomes for the project. A more calm and measured review of the situation is needed to establish a positive away forward. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:41, 23 June 2014 (UTC).
  
• Comment - I was site-banned for 55 weeks (April 2013 - May 2014) & in that time I never socked. When I mis-used my talkpage, it was blocked for 50 of those weeks (May 2013 to April 2014). There's no reason why Russavia can't serve his time, like I served mine. GoodDay (talk) 02:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Wikipedia policy states we do not penalise editors with punitive blocks. I don't know the details of your case but I would not be surprised if your block became punitive and should have been lifted long before the 55 weeks were up. We only block editors on a strictly preventative basis. If Russavia does nothing but make high quality edits, as all of the edits of his sockpuppets appear to be, then there's nothing to prevent and no need for a block. If he misbehaves, then there is something to prevent and we can block for however is necessary. We have always had problems on Wikipedia with good content contributors being some of the more vociferous campaigners, frequently disrupting the project to make a point, but with declining numbers of very active contributors and participation problems we face, the old "ban and forget" way to deal with them is untenable. We need to adopt a more nuanced approach of managing potentially problematic users, getting them to make good content edits, providing them with an avenue to campaign and vent their frustration without causing excessive disruption, so they don't incur too much wrath from the community and end up blocked for lengthy periods. Nick (talk) 10:13, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Nothing against Russavia, but some of you are trying to give him a free pass, while others like me had to accept our blocks/bans. When editors like me, see this kinda double standard being promoted, it make us feel like crap. GoodDay (talk) 10:33, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't know the full details of your case, but considering your long track record of contributions here it sounds like you were hard done by - I'm fairly confident I would have been supporting an early release (and were I an admin at the time, I'd very likely have accepted an email request to give you back your talk page access - my feeling is that talk page access should only be removed for obvious vandals, or for genuinely disruptive actions and then only for a minimum period). But two wrongs don't make a right, and the way forward is surely to make sure we stop excluding good contributors unless absolutely necessary. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• We need a solution As one who forwarded the initial unblock request to here, I still supports his unblock. But now the situation is more pathetic. See, every text contribution to Wikipedia is CC BY-SA 3.0/GFDL licensed; so the user is eligible for credits. So either allow him to edit in his main account, or in a new account like Russavia2014. The current situation to block accounts in a daily basis; allowing to edit (and keep those edits) in several, several accounts is noway acceptable. Reverting and re-adding by another user is also not acceptable (as Nick did here) as credit must go to Russavia. Jee 03:30, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support. I have no idea whether or not this editor is a good content editor, but being a good editor is more than good content, it also includes being able to collaborate with other editors, maturity, and the ability to follow the rules that all editors have to follow. Constant socking tells me that those latter qualities are lacking. The standard offer provides a means for an editor who wishes to contribute to prove that they have those qualities. Gamaliel (talk) 04:15, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. For exactly the same reasons I supported his latest unblock request - Russavia is a net positive to the project. Besides, as was said above, he's savvy enough on the sock puppet front for such a ban to have little effect.  Philg88 ^♦talk 04:44, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose and unblock. Because we're trying to build a quality encyclopedia here, and we should be trying to encourage people who are good at that rather than chasing them away. So Russavia creates socks and then uses those socks to create good content! Gosh!! If it wasn't for the personal animosity and the "obey the rules" crowd hunting down socks just because they're there (rather than because of what they're doing), he'd be ignored and left to get on with his good work - and we wouldn't have this noticeboard filling up with all this drama. Blocks are to prevent damage to the encyclopedia, and if Russavia's block leads him to create socks and quietly improve the encyclopedia, then I'd say the block is working well. In fact, I'd actually say it's evidence that the block isn't needed. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:10, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose and unblock. In failing to unblock him and give him a path back to legitimate participation on en-WP, we are getting it wrong. A ban would be a matter of getting it really wrong. Carrite (talk) 09:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - Why is a 'double standard' being promoted here, for Russavia? GoodDay (talk) 10:18, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Blocked is blocked, and someone who wantonly flouts community decisions has no business editing Wikipedia, regardless of how useful some of their edits may be. Participation here is predicated on more than just submitting good content: editors need to be willing to collaborate with others and to respect our communally developed policies and behavioural norms. By pushing through edits with mass sockpuppetry, Russavia is pissing on the cooperative and social foundations of our project. —Psychonaut (talk) 10:59, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Comment. Don't know about the merits of a formal ban, but in practical terms it's just red tape. Russavia knows he can sock, edit, be blocked, sock again, edit, be blocked, sock yet again, edit and so on and so forth. There is no possible way of stopping him as a person, as opposed to an account, from editing. He is waving it in our faces and enjoying it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:58, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose and unblock - I haven't followed this case closely, but Russavia appears to be a good content contributor. With the number of new editors on en-Wikipedia dropping annually, to keep someone with such a clear willingness to contribute to the project blocked is counterproductive. However, if he returns to the disruptive behavior that got him blocked in the first place, well, "reblocks are cheap". G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 13:45, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• comment I'm not seeing the point in escalating this given the socking behavior, which this isn't going to stop, and the failure of discipline over in commons, which subverts this anyway. But I have to wonder at the whole "he does a lot of good work, so we're going to overlook his outbursts of beyond-the-pale behavior" argument which seems to be the main "oppose" argument. As GoodDay says, it's an obvious double standard. Mangoe (talk) 15:32, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

  I haven't seen anyone arguing that we should "overlook his outbursts of beyond-the-pale behavior" - can you please provide diffs where someone has? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:45, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - The entourage of Russavia supporters who say that his socking should be permitted because he is an "excellent content creator" illustrates why I think that "community consensus" at these noticeboards is a will-o-the-wisp. For that reason, we should consider referring this case to the ArbCom, which is slow, but acts on majority and does not require "consensus". Robert McClenon (talk) 15:45, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Neutral on a ban, absolutely oppose any sort of unblock at this point. To be completely frank, Russavia is a net negative to this project at this time, and has been for a while now. The only way to argue otherwise is to simply pretend his dramamongering doesn't exist. However, I would be open to an unblock at some point in the future if he (1) promises to drop the drama causing games, (2) is told in no uncertain terms that he is done for good if subsequently blocked for playing these games and (3) his defenders and/or enablers agree to same. Resolute 15:51, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support - being a "good content editor" is no excuse for being a bloody nuisance. I dread to think how many potential long-term editors have been driven away as newbies by "good content editors" with an attitude problem like Russavia and others... GiantSnowman 17:50, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - the principle of the standard offer is an excellent one. Russavia has helped many people over the years and his commitment to the open movement is laudable even if his type of "activism" is uncomfortable to many and seen by some as a "bloody nuisance", I certainly do not agree with all his shenanigans, some of which do flout the rules but that is not always a bad thing in retrospect. The culture on the English Wikipedia creates heroes and villains, that has been my personal experience of being forced into both these stereotyping boxes rather than being seen as a real person. Having worked with Russavia on highly productive joint projects, I find him genuine, warm and helpful. Perhaps those writing more extreme views here might try working with him putting educational content on Commons at some point. Keep an open mind to fit our shared open values. --Fæ (talk) 18:19, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
  • And perhaps those defending him should have a frank talk about his habits of trolling and needlessly creating drama. Russavia is where he is today because of his own behaviour, not because of anyone else. His enablers should keep that in mind. Resolute 18:35, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
    • I for one have that very much in mind, and I say we should block him as a preventative measure if and when he becomes disruptive - but when he's not being disruptive (which seems like most of the time), then don't block him. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:41, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support Its no wonder this project is so screwed when so many users think its OK to enable disruptive troublemakers simply because they think their edits are worthwhile. Condoning harassment and deliberate trolling at any price is the death knell for this project. Spartaz ^Humbug! 18:25, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Kwamikagami edit-warring at Gaulish language

I am at my wits' end with Kwamikagami (talk · contribs). The other day, I intervened as a neutral admin in a bitter feud between Kwami and Skookum1 (talk · contribs) (see here). At the time, I was seeing the fault predominantly – though not exclusively – on the other side, and ended up formally warning Skookum [4], hoping that Kwami would also take on a more collaborative stance. The next day, I learned that Kwami had also been in another unrelated dispute, where his opponent User:Cagwinn had become just as exasperated and bitter with him as Skookum had been. This time, I thought I could help better not as an admin but by providing a third opinion as an expert editor [5], hoping to be able to quickly dissolve the dispute. But now I am finding myself in followup disputes with Kwami myself, and am feeling just the same sense of frustration with him as Skookum and Cagwinn did previously. I am up against a brickwall of intransigence on talk, bordering on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT obtuseness, and a persistent strategy of systematic slow edit-warring just below 3R, often using a variety of spurious "fact", "pov" or "failed verification" tags. The content discussion is here, but it's now shifted to an obscure technical issue that will probably be difficult for outside readers to even understand. Kwami has been revert-warring against three other highly knowledgeable editors (Cagwinn, myself, and User:Cuchullain). He was up just at 3R on 14 May[6][7][8] and immediately again the next time he touched the article on 27 May [9][10][11], and again on 30/31 May [12][13][14][15], always alternating between removing and fact-tagging things he didn't like. He continued his tagging tactics on 3 June [16], 10 June [17] and 12 June [18]. Kwami is alone against consensus on talk with this, and despite the "see talk" in his latest edit summary he has not made any further contributions there, and has failed to heed my advice to seek outside dispute resolution instead. He has also been edit-warring in parallel on several other related articles [19][20][21].

What makes it worse is that he has in the meantime also resumed his contentious behaviour in the other matter, where of course now I can no longer take administrative action as I would have otherwise. He made these hostile baiting edits to Skookum1's talkpage [22][23], after being clearly told to stay out of it, and made further personal attacks against him here [24]. For these alone, I would normally have blocked him, given the prior history. He was also again revert-warring with Skookum on one of the pages in question [25].

At this point I really no longer know what to do with him. My patience for debating with him directly is exhausted; chances for getting more outside knowledgeable opinions to solidify consensus are slim (my own and Cuchullain's involvement were just that already, and the issue is too obscure for most non-experts to be able to contribute much); and he shows absolutely no sign of being willing to accept other people's views. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I had a quick look, as I enjoy reading language articles, though I don't have much to directly contribute towards them. I think the root problem is a general lack of collaborative editing - instead of just slapping {{fv}} on a sentence, ([26]) would it not be simpler to change one or two words so it fits the source? eg: " The more divergent Lepontic Celtic of Northern Italy has also been compared to Gaulish". DRN would be the obvious next place to go - that said, if somebody is repeatedly making three reverts (and no more), then they're obviously clued up on WP:3RR and deliberately skirting it to cause just enough disruption not to get blocked for it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The is about Kwami's behaviour from the get-go. He's got a particular 'bee in his bonnet' which he's been trying to bulldoze into a wide swathe of Celtic language related articles since at least the beginning of May. I was briefly involved on Common Brittonic, Brittonic languages, Insular Celtic etc then. Same pattern of edit warring that switches back and forth between changing text/adding tags. I couldn't maintain my interest - but if the same level of bulldozing is going on now a month later then there is a real behavioural problem. An editor of his experience must know full well that he should be keeping it to the talk pages until he gets consensus. DeCausa (talk) 12:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Ritchie333: it isn't about "changing one or two words so it fits the source". There isn't even any disagreement over whether the current summary matches what the source says. It quite obviously does. The source is about as unambiguous and explicit as you could wish for. What Kwami has got fixated on is that, by some convoluted WP:SYNTH reasoning of his own, he claims that what that author says in the paper cited is somehow logically inconsistent with something else he says in some other paper, and that therefore when he uses the term "Gaulish" in that first paper he must be meaning something entirely different than what everybody else means by that term, so it somehow isn't in the scope of what the article is about. It's outrageously OR'ish (of course, nobody else in the literature has sensed any such contradiction, and it can easily be shown that many other authors in reliable sources have identified the author in question as a chief proponent of the view that we are attributing to him.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Ah no, I just meant why didn't Kwamikagami copyedit the article to make things clearer respective to the source, rather than wantonly slapping a tag on it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:08, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I'm agree that the edit warring and intransigence has risen to the level that administrator intervention is necessary. As Future Perfect at Sunrise says, in addition to the issues at Gaulish language, it's affected numerous other articles. For instance we had an extensive central discussion about Kwami's proposed changes to the Celtic language infoboxes here, and the result was that literally no other editor supported any of his suggested changes. However, he continues to revert war them back into the articles.[27][28][29] These changes aren't even consistent with each other. His behavior shows he's not willing to work constructively to build consensus, or accept any consensus that disagrees with him.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:20, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Fut perf, I have also interacted with Kwamikagami, he rejects the archaeological sources, and he also rejects the academic sources. He rejects the reliable sources just because he didn't liked the title of the book. If source is unavailable to him, he will call it snippet, but we can say that source is actually available to him, cause he still need some excuse. If you make better argument, he will say I will look into it later, he don't reply to the posts even if he is trying to own articles. Many of the articles where he has edit warred should be checked, you can find bunch of reliable sources and information to have been removed by Kwamikagami. Bladesmulti (talk) 14:24, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• I hate to add on here, since Kwami is one of the most productive and knowledgeable Writing Systems editors - an area of special concern to me - but this seems to be a pervasive, ongoing problem with Kwami's editing style. Part of it stems from the fact that Kwami is so often actually correct in many of these situations that when (s)he is wrong about something, it ends up being a huge problem, because Kwami ends up treating good-faith editors with a better understanding of the material as if they were POV pushers. It's becoming more and more obvious that Kwami needs to seriously undertake a process of developing collegiality in his/her dealings with other editors or needs to take a wikibreak. VanIsaac_WS^cont 22:52, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
  • That's a pretty good analysis of the problem, indeed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:25, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• I also had firsthand experience with Kwamikagami's arrogance and intransigence. I created the article Jinhui dialect (aka Dondac) based on a research paper published in the academic journal Science, and Kwami soon began attacking the journal as an unreliable source. He later added a Chinese source which he claimed to refute the Science article, but it instead corroborated the data used by the Science article. This was when I realized Kwami had no idea what he was talking about, and likely did not even understand the Chinese source. When I pointed it out to him, he began attacking the credibility of the source he provided himself. He insisted, without any evidence, that the 20 vowels of Jinhui included allophones, even though his own source explicitly said they were all phonemes. He repeatedly reverted my edits, removing the Science source, and replaced the list of vowels from the source with a completely different set, with no explanation where they came from. When he couldn't convince me, he canvassed Taivo for help. Taivo had been blocked for disruptive editing and was just recently unblocked by Kwami himself, who was still an admin at the time. Taivo obliged as expected, parroting Kwami's claim that Science is not a reliable source and reverting my edits, without adding any content or source. Out of disgust, I quit editing the article I started. See Talk:Jinhui dialect for details. I used to respect Kwami as one of the most prolific editors on Wikipedia, but after this episode, I began to wonder how much of his "contribution" was fraudulent. Separately, I also stumbled upon another article on Chinese linguistics, where Kanguole, one of the most knowledgeable editors in the field, quit editing the article after a similar experience with Kwami. -Zanhe (talk) 00:02, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Zanhe, I'm guessing you read Chinese. The paper Kwami found explicitly said his chart was vowels and not allophones, correct? Reverting your edits and canvassing another editor instead of accepting your translation is pretty bad faith. An admin should have interceded on your behalf.--Atlantictire (talk) 14:24, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm proficient in Chinese. Source: "成对的舒促韵母的元音却是不同的，这种差异具有辨音意义。所以金汇方言的单元音有 20 个之多" Translation: "Pairs of checked and non-checked finals have different vowels. These differences are meaningful in distinguishing phonemes. Therefore Jinhui dialect has as many as 20 monophthongs." I translated it for Kwami in the article talk page, and the Science article also lists 20 vowels (not allophones), but he simply dismisses his own source (which is a publication of the local government), as well as Science, as unreliable. -Zanhe (talk) 20:28, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I can absolutely understand how Kwami looked at that vowel chart and went, ah ha allophones. In fairness to Kwami, the authors of the Science article were evolutionary geneticists, not linguists, and I commend him for looking for the actual linguistics research that was used to compile the authors' data set. But... if both sources say vowels. It's. Vowels. I hope that article currently reflects the sources and not an OR reading of them... or whatever sources have been found since.--Atlantictire (talk) 20:47, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I was grateful that Kwami found the source. If only he would adhere to what the source actually says. -Zanhe (talk) 21:16, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• I would suggest that it might be a good idea for Future Perfect at Sunrise and Kwamikagami to agree on an admin or fellow editor whom they trust to get to the bottom of this dispute. You might find out who in fact the bad faith interlocutor is real fast if one is rejecting any and all interventions. In my limited (though highly traumatic) experience with AN/I, I was impressed with Mendaliv's judiciousness and impartiality.

But... Kwami is not here and clearly there are a fair number of editors who've been very upset by his actions. It's extremely demoralizing when admins seem passive in the face of multiple editors voicing their distress. I would say temporary block, and if he does decide to speak up for himself investigate, ask questions and be thorough.--Atlantictire (talk) 00:39, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Good advise, but unfortunately in this case it's not just a dispute between Kwami and Future Perfect. Just at Gaulish language Kwami has been in dispute with at least three editors knowledgeable about the general topic who disagree with him, and there are even more at the various related discussions.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• Fully agree with analysis of Fut.Perf. as seen in dozens of previous incidents with the same pattern in the archives. By all means wait for Kwami to make a response, but if it's the same response as all the previous incidents then maybe some change encouraging remedy, such as a 3-month 1RR on all language articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:44, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

At any rate, Kwami hasn't made any edits since June 12. I take this at least partially as a conscious effort to disengage and an acknowledgement that the preceding behavior was causing a problem, which would be a good sign. However, if the behavior resumes, this matter is simply going to require some kind of action, whether blocks or edit restrictions, as this disruption has simply gone on too long.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Could response / non-response in previous ANI be viewed in this manner? Whatever I suggest that this stays open, unclosed, unarchived until Kwami responds here. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:02, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Atlantictire and In ictu oculi above, it's demoralizing when admins do nothing in the face of consistent complaints from multiple editors. Not even a slap on the wrist after causing distress in so many people? -Zanhe (talk) 03:58, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, unfortunately AN/I is rotten with POV pushers sticking up for each other, and that really muddies things. Big difference: the Friends of POV pushers are generally cool as cucumbers . These are people clearly at their wit's end. This is a highly arcane content dispute, so I think people are afraid of it. But there's got to be someone here who thinks they're smart enough to get to the bottom of it. GUYS?--Atlantictire (talk) 04:44, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Atlantictire "Yeah, unfortunately AN/I is rotten with POV pushers sticking up for each other" - I beg your pardon?? Which editors are you referring to? I for one am insulted to be tarred by this broad brush comment, and from a stand off observer point I can't see it applying to any of the above either. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:09, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

No, Blackmane, my comment is extremely germane, and no In ictu oculi I was not referring to you or any of the clearly distressed people in this discussion. There is much concern that POV pushing has hopelessly complicated the AN/I process in general and that is why disputes such as this one go unresolved. It's hard to tell up from down anymore. This is why I would favor parties here choosing an intermediary rather than an admin making a unilateral decision.Kwami's choosing not to participate, which is unfortunate.--Atlantictire (talk) 14:55, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• My involvement in language articles is minimal to nil, but as someone who's interacted with Kwami elsewhere, I think long-term sanctions for tendentiousness and edit-warring (not just whatever the next-level temporary block is) are long overdue. And I agree that this should not be allowed to be archived without a conclusion, regardless of whether Kwami's spent a few days inactive. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:15, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Just for my view of the things: I know that you and Kwami (and me, and some others) had some clashes at Talk:Secular Islam Summit. But that was more than a year ago. And if I remember well, I thought there were worse behaving editors present there instead of Kwami. Did you have any (to put it nicely) interactions with him since? And did his attitude worsen over time?Jeff5102 (talk) 13:10, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

O wait, as seen from the links in this discussion I see he did.Jeff5102 (talk) 15:36, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

tangential discussion about process

Here's a thought: I'm finding that Wikipedia's better copy editors are really its angels of NPOV. They attempt to revise articles that are very difficult to read because ceaseless edit warring and has cluttered them with endless appeasing concessions to one camp or another. Soon enough, the copy editor finds himself adjudicating content disputes. The good ones know how to ask questions, evaluate sources and seek advice from resident experts. Best of all, they have no dog in the fight and no agenda other than ensuring that an article is accessible and factually accurate. Coretheapple is a crackerjack copyeditor. Yes, CTA, I am volunteering you for this task. Kwamikagami, Future Perfect at Sunrise, Cuchullain, Skookum1, In ictu oculi, Zanhe, Roscelese, Bladesmulti, Cagwinn, Jeff5102, Vanisaac, DeCausa, Ritchie333, Bladesmulti (sorry if I missed anyone): would you be amenable to having a controversial article copy-edited by Coretheapple? Even if Kwami doesn't respond, we could start anyway. If the copyeditor reports that the discussion has devolved into passive-aggressive WP:PUSH word games, then perhaps Drmies or Bbb23 could intervene with warnings and then sanctions. If this experiment were to work, I think it might have encouraging implications for dispute resolution and editor retention. The facts are the facts are the facts, and when they are continually and even willfully disrespected and no one does anything about it, well... that's when incivility happens! Peace, friends.:-)--Atlantictire (talk) 18:31, 20 June 2014 (UTC) Well, that's very nice of you! I've been yelled at a lot lately. Flattery will get you everywhere. :) Coretheapple (talk) 18:39, 20 June 2014 (UTC) Almost everywhere. That is one hell of a mess complex subject! And on a subject about which I know nothing. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a Gaulish language. I wouldn't know where to start, or end. Coretheapple (talk) 18:50, 20 June 2014 (UTC) Not fair for me to say "mess," as I don't know enough about the subject to even say that. Coretheapple (talk) 18:54, 20 June 2014 (UTC) Coretheapple, I know linguistics (love the linguistics pages here by the way), and know my way around a discussion on phonology, morphology, syntax, semantics and pragmatics. Snow Rise is a massive Steven Pinker nut (and I absolutely mean that in a good way) so I'm guessing she has some competency with this as well. I think we could help you, in conjunction with the other editors, determine whether or not something is in fact a reliable source and answer questions about what a source is actually saying. Since, at the end of the day, it's the arguments over sources that make people insane. If you're up for it, you stand to learn a lot about a really fascinating topic. I believe in you! Let's take what's best about Wikipedia and use it to fix what's worst.--Atlantictire (talk) 19:07, 20 June 2014 (UTC) Well, I'd be happy to help as much as I can, but you know, I am totally ignorant of linguistics. I went back to the version of a year ago, hoping to find it more reader friendly, and I found it was just as confounding. One does have to know a bit about the subject matter to know if there is bias or not. Why, even to be biased in this requires an admirable amount of expertise. If someone was POV pushing, how would I know? For example, I looked at this Mr. Kwangi's edits, and shrugged. Keep in mind that when I'm not arguing with paid editors I'm usually writing about obscure choreographers and police detectives. Coretheapple (talk) 19:13, 20 June 2014 (UTC) That's fine and I don't want you to feel like I'm nagging you to do something you'd rather not do. I started copy editing engineering-related articles, a subject in which I have very little competency, precisely because I couldn't understand them at all. I write a draft and ask, guys, is this what you in fact are saying? In any case, it's absolutely fine for you to pass on this.:-)--Atlantictire (talk) 19:21, 20 June 2014 (UTC) No no... not so fast. I have a few minutes. I'll go through it right now, purely as a reader, and edit for clarity. Coretheapple (talk) 19:24, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Guys, I went through this in visual editor. I have no idea what the background of the article is. I made a few minor fixes. The only thing that stood out is this: were I a college student with the sorry task of researching "Gaulish languages," I would go to this article and probably rely on it as if it were the Gospel. However, large segments of the article are not footnoted. I think there is a need for more of that. I am too ignorant of the subject matter and intimidated by the academic prose to tag it too much, however. Tell me, where is the POV pushing in this article? I couldn't quite make it out. Coretheapple (talk) 19:56, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

There were a whole slew of related Celtic language articles that Kwami was rogue editing. I mainly took issue with the fact that he was totally re-organizing the Celtic language trees and citing as his primary source an article that, if he had read in full (and I have my doubts that he did) he clearly did not understand (even the author of said article, in a personal communication to me, stated that he thought Kwami's edits were "confused"), as his re-organization was rather idiosyncratic. Kwami also attempted to remove the label "Celtic" from the lede in the Lepontic language article (even though its Celticity has long since been accepted by the majority of scholars) and has been engaged in a bizarre suppression of even the mere mention of the new hypothesis that Tartessian may be a Celtic language (to the point that he even cast aspersions on one of the greatest scholars of Indo-European linguistics of the past century, Eric Hamp, simply because Hamp appears to have accepted the validity of this hypothesis in a recent paper; Kwami went to far as to suggest that Hamp didn't write the paper himself!). Kwami also through "dubious" tags on everything with abandon. It really felt like an all-out assault on his part on the Celtic language articles.Cagwinn (talk) 05:31, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, I do not find evidence of Kwami trying to remove "Celtic" from Lepontic language (what he did try to remove was "Continental Celtic" as a family node). As for the Tartessian language debate in February, I haven't read thoroughly through all of it yet, but as far as it is about the Adams/Hamp paper in "Sino-Platonic Papers" [30], I do think that Kwami probably had a point in voicing reservations about it; it is a really strange publication in several ways. Should that discussion be reviewed once more? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:18, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

"SINO-PLATONIC PAPERS is an occasional series dedicated to making available to specialists and the interested public the results of research that, because of its unconventional or controversial nature, might otherwise go unpublished." Kwami is absolutely right to express reservations about using this paper to draw conclusions about a particular language, regardless of what Hamp's credentials may be. I don't think that Hamp himself would have supported that.--Atlantictire (talk) 13:29, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

He did try to remove Celtic from the Lepontic article - see his edits on 13 May 2014‎. There is no reason to express reservations over Hamp's paper; Hamp's qualifications are impeccable, his is highly regarded and respected by his peers, and he wouldn't put his name on anything that he did not support (and I have been assured of all of this in a personal communication with J. T. Koch).Cagwinn (talk) 19:14, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I think everybody understands that Hamp's credentials as an Indo-European languages scholar are impeccable. It's just the express purpose of the Sino-Platonic Series is to publish interesting research that doesn't meet the evidentiary standards of peer-reviewed linguistics journals. It's the equivalent of a preliminary cancer drug study in which the results are interesting but there's no control group and/or the sample size is too small so you can't draw firm conclusions from it. I'd be happy to look at the study's methodology if you're still not convinced!--Atlantictire (talk) 20:15, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with Coretheapple re:references. Some of those are pretty interesting. Aulus Gellius, Julius Caesar, Sidonius Apollinaris, Jerome, Lucian… all noted linguists of the ancient world! :-)

I am having a little difficulty following the debate on the talk page. How did you decide that “Continental Celtic” was a phylogenic category and how did you decide where to place Lepontic in the Celtic language tree?

Not asking for a lesson on clades and paraphyly and whatnot. Are there sources that explicitly order Continental Celtic and Lepontic as you have or are these inferences?--Atlantictire (talk) 06:51, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Atlanticire, this section is pretty huge now. I can tell you that I won't even revert Kwamikagami, even if he is not online. He should resume discussion and try to accept changes from other editors. Who wants to read Wikipedia:Long-term abuseKwamikagami? Futperf is not only one who has objected the editing pattern of Kwamikagami on Gaulish Language. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:38, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Not to excuse edit warring or unilaterally re-categorizing a whole bunch of languages, and definitely not to point fingers, but if it's at all possible we're attempting to substitute wikipedia consensus for scholarly consensus... because the linguists just haven't made up their minds about some of these things... that does seem like a recipe for driving somebody nuts. Please, please correct me if I'm wrong.--Atlantictire (talk) 11:53, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh wow, I only just realized Cagwinn actually created Wikipedia:Long-term abuseKwamikagami (sic). Come on now. I know several of us have been frustrated with Kwami, but he's still a good-faith and valuable contributor. "Long-term abuse" pages are for persistent banned sockpuppeters and the like. I've speedied that page as an obvious attack page. Please don't do that again. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:58, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I am not a Wikipedia bureaucrat and don't know the ins-and-outs of how to report people (I have never had cause to report anyone until Kwami started his war against me). I clicked through some links here on reporting users for bad behavior and I thought I was following the correct procedure, but Wikipedia is absolutely byzantine. Kwami was harassing me on my Talk page and threatening to report me, so I responded that I was going to report _him_ and that's what I thought I was doing by creating that page. I guess I was wrong.Cagwinn (talk) 00:39, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Guess I wasn't too much help with my run-through (see? I told you so). My main problem was sourcing. I couldn't detect POV pushing, because one has to be familiar with the subject matter to pick up on that. If there were such POV pushing, it is especially serious for that precise reason. As for the quality of existing sources, again I think that one has to know more about linguistics to detect that. There is an absence of sourcing on far too much of the article, and I almost slapped an OR tag on it, but I didn't feel comfortable enough with the subject matter to do so. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Coretheapple (talk) 16:33, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Proposed Resolutions (Uninvolved Editors)

Constant reverting and tagging information in an article as "dubious" is needlessly contemptuous of other editors. Kwami's behavior towards Zanhe in 2012 was extremely regrettable, as both Zahne and Kwami's sources supported Zahne's position. Kwami proceeded to revert Zahne's edits and canvass another editor.

Here Kwami does seem to have legitimate concerns about WP:VERIFY, but this does not excuse distressingly autocratic behavior such as reverting and malicious tagging. Failure to respect sources and scholarly consensus is a serious matter--especially to people who pride themselves on their academic integrity. If Kwami indeed feels this is happening he Cuchullain, Cagwinn, and whoever else is involved in the Celtic language dispute ought to agree upon an intermediary whom they trust to mediate a disagreement over content.

Support 3-month 1RR proposed by In ictu oculi, as slow edit-warring is a long-time bad habit and this may be necessary in order to ensure more collaborative editing.--Atlantictire (talk) 16:25, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support : that will encourage Kwami to keep on editing constructively, while he wil be barred from more regrettable actions.Jeff5102 (talk) 21:12, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support - He's getting off easy, in my view. Jusdafax 23:10, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
• Concern: I would like to see a solution that explicitly encourages Kwami to use talk pages to explain, in appropriately simple terms, his issues with articles. We have seen a number of specialist editors burn out, or get expelled by the community because they can't take the time to discuss - even if they are 95% of the time right, it is actually worth the time to discuss, because it spreads competence, creates collegiality and creates better articles. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC).
  

Very well said Rich Farmbrough. If I had been an involved editor in the "Continental Celtic" and "Lepontic" disputes I would have strongly urged the other editors to take Kwami's concerns seriously. All the evidence I've seen indicates he has every reason to be skeptical that Wikipedia consensus and scholarly consensus are one and the same here. And believe me, if Kwami despairs of Wikipedia ever competently enforcing WP:VERIFY or sanctioning anything other than obvious breaches of WP:CIVIL I most definitely share his pain.

But losing the right to make multiple reverts to a single article in one day is no great sacrifice. Especially if the sources are on your side. Don't hijack articles, people. WP:DRN is woefully underused.--Atlantictire (talk) 04:34, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Unfortunately, this measure seems necessary at this point. Kwami's a good editor, but he has a tendency to dig his heels in, and the long-term pattern of edit warring, stonewalling, and general refusal to act in a collaborative spirit is well past disruptive at this point. A 1RR limit on language articles will reduce the edit warring that's causing so much of the tension without halting Kwami's ability to make positive changes; it won't end the stonewalling on the talk page or the incivility, but it will reduce how much of that seeps into the articles.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

User:LardoBalsamico's personal attacks, false accusations and "gaming the system" behaviours

My original and second request got arcihived, that's why I am copying this from the archives.

Repost of original thread

I need help with this user and this article about an issue that has been going on for a long time. Here's the situation; It all started on February, I read this article, 2011 Turkish sports corruption scandal and after reading it found out that it lacks a neutral point of view. So I started to edit it and after doing it, wrote every reason for my edits on the main editor's talk page, who is Lardo Balsamico. You can see them here. As you can see LardoBalsamico replied with only one sentence and didn't answer my second question. Then, I made my case to the NPOV board. It didn't get ant reply so it got "backlogged." Then I made my case to the dispute resolution board. First, it was denied because my case was already on the NPOV board but then the case was closed because user LardoBalsamico didn't join in the discussion. Then I made my case to request for a comment section, it stayed there for 22 days (got no reply) then as suggested by wikipedia help line I moved my case to the NPOV board which is there for 2 months. (you can also read my case about the article lacking neutral point of view here) As you can see, I went through all the dispute resolving solutions but the user LardoBalsamico didn't join in. Now, please, take a look at this talk page and this one. As you can see, every time I try to reach a consensus with LardoBalsamico, he doesn't write back, and if he does he's just stating a rule and not leaving any room to discuss his edits as you can see from these examples: [31], [32]. Another issue with this user is while his edits are always perfect, the edits that doesn't fit wih his ways is either "vandalism" or "misleading info" Just look at at this, he deletes a referenced part from the article by saying that it is misleading info even though it is from one of the Turkey's best selling newspaper! Another interesting thing about this user is, if you look at this edit, I wrote a reason for my edit stating that the user has no reason to write about this article everywhere but after just 1 day he wrote it again to two [33] diffrent articles. What's more interesting about this user is; through my research, I found out that exactly the same thing happened to another user. As you can see here, LardoBalsamico did the same things to another user. So, it is really clear that he lacks a neutral point of view about this issue and also it is very clear that he is "gaming the system". I need your help with this user because, as you can see, I have ran out of options to deal with him. Thanks for taking the time to read my request, and if you have any questions about this, I am always ready to answer. Thanks.Rivaner (talk) 06:57, 12 June 2014 (UTC) I have notified the user about this but he blanked his talk page, here's my notification.Rivaner (talk) 08:06, 12 June 2014 (UTC) Today, user LardoBalsamico escalated the issue to personal attacks by calling me a "fanboy" and also suggesting me to "get a life". You can see this from here As you can see the more civil I try to be, he is doing the exact opposite. Also he posted some warnings on my talk page as well. I read the warnings and it is very clear that these warnings can also be posted on his talk page as well. To stop edit warring, I made a decision not to revert any of his edits untill this case is closed here. Again, thanks for taking the time to read my request and if you have any questions, I am always ready to answer.Rivaner (talk) 11:06, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Hopefully his time it will work. Thanks for taking the time to read my request.Rivaner (talk) 10:58, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Now, the user in clear violation of another rule. First, NPOV, then personal attacks. As you can see above he never joins the discussions as well. Please, help me with this situation. Rivaner (talk) 16:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• I haven't looked into it in detail, but it seems like the user in question has some slight ownership problems - and they've been editing the article since 2011, and haven't allowed anyone else to do much. (By the way, if you want to keep this thread from getting archived, just post a new comment on it every few days.) G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 16:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• By the way, this link that you posted does not exist. Perhaps you should provide a diff instead. In fact, this whole thread could use some more diffs. Perhaps the reason no one has touched it is because you've made it so they'll have to sift through so much stuff that they don't even want to bother. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 16:41, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• Actuallly, that link was to show his personal attack Thanks for your help. Now, as you've suggested, I am going to edit my original post accordingly. Hopefully, this time this case will be solved.Rivaner (talk) 17:00, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

As suggested, I've changed all the links to diffs.Rivaner (talk) 17:42, 17 June 2014 (UTC) Today, I double-checked my actions and changed all the direct links that I can to diffs. Some of them are still direct links but there's no way to change those to diffs as they show clear proves of all the actions related to my request here. Thanks for the suggestion, hope it is readable now.Rivaner (talk) 04:55, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

User LardoBalsamico is continuing his personal attacks and also breaking another wikipedia policy (he was warned about this before). You can see this here.Rivaner (talk) 05:56, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• This is the diff that you're referring to, I believe. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 18:35, 18 June 2014 (UTC) Yes that was the one, thanks.Rivaner (talk) 05:55, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

User LardoBalsamico is continuing his personal attacks while reverting my justified edits. You can the personal attacks; here, here and here.Rivaner (talk) 08:30, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• I blocked both editors for 48 hours for violating WP:3RR in response to a report at WP:AN3.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:44, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I was blocked by a report from user LardoBalsamico who used personal attacks even on his report.Rivaner (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I updated the original post since there were some changes in related diffs.Rivaner (talk) 20:20, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment I can confirm user Rivaner's complaints and reports. The reported user LardoBalsamico doesn't seem to have any will of contributing constructively, rather seems to be on a propaganda and POV-pushing mission, in favour of a certain sports club. Please consider sanctioning him accordingly. Akocsg (talk) 21:13, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

And where would the diffs to back up those allegations be? --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 22:01, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Rivaner and User:akocsg are both Fenerbahce fans. Here is the link https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kullan%C4%B1c%C4%B1:Akocsg . And please take a look at Rivaner's articles. They are cooperating each other for this issue. And they know english speakers do not understand the turkish sources in this article and they are manipulating them easily. Why is Rivaner here? Because he has been appointed by his club to take care of this issue. Do we permit this? Do we let the club official change all the things which were based on sources? Do we let manipulate the things? LardoBalsamico (talk) 01:11, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Now now, what is this? Are you already starting to personally attack users even here? First of all, no one is cooperating here. That's what you probably do, but I personally never had contact with the user Rivaner, he only left me a message on my page, that's all. The only one manipulating is you, and I will show some examples very soon, also for the admins. I will also show how you included swearing in the Turkish language in one of your alleged "sources"! You even falsely accuse users (me and Rivaner in this case) here who rightfully take care of your propagandistic and biased stuff to be appointed by a sports club? Seriously? I hope these personal attacks of you won't go unpunished once again! Akocsg (talk) 03:33, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

@Skamecrazy123 Here are the diffs: 1 including the swearing in Turkish: "bursaspor-macinin-oncesinden-tarih-serefsizleri-yazar-hic-unutmaz/ Tarih şerefsizleri yazar, hiç unutmaz" Translation to English: "Before the match against Bursaspor, history will write down the honourless, and never forget them" Honourless is a serious offensive word in Turkish. It's what he wrote and labelled the source as, or a source to blackmail the other side and propagate his own cause, either way it's an offense and needs to be sanctioned. 2 An article that ony serves the purpose of propaganda, the incident has nothing to do with match-fixing at all, plus that incident is already mentioned in another article. Despite all this the user still insists on it and keeps reverting to the false, propagandistic version that is absolutely contrary to the standards of Wikipedia. If you check out the relevant articles you should hopefully get the idea. I hope this is enough to show that the User LardoBalsamico needs to be sanctioned anyway. Akocsg (talk) 03:59, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I would like to ask LardoBalsamico for proofs of his allegations. I am not appointed by Fenerbahce, I don't work for the club. If this allegation is not proven by him, it is, again, a personal attack.

It is true that I've contacted Akocsg. The only reason I did was he wrote that LardoBalsamico's actions need attention, So, not wanting him to start things from the beginning, I've told him where LardoBalsamico's actions are already being questioned.Rivaner (talk) 06:19, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks? This is yours, right? https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kullan%C4%B1c%C4%B1:Akocsg How can it be personal if it is yours? You have to understand that wikipedia is not a football fan page. Have you ever read all of my articles? No? Then how do you know me? 2 Fenerbahce fans against me and that is the problem.

Rivaner only cares about this article. Why? Because he has been appointed by the club! Yes, this is true. It is the proof! http://forum.12numara.org/forum.php Unfortunately, this forum is closed to the visitors!

The paragraph that starts with "Personal attacks?" and also the paragraph that starts with "Rivaner only cares..." are comments made by LardoBalsamico.(no signtature).Rivaner (talk) 07:13, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

The link that LardoBalsamico shared is a Fenerbahce Fan Site's forum which I am not even a member. (If it is needed I can share my e-mail adress with an admin so he/she can ask for a password retrival and see the warning that my e-mail adress is not in their database.) I might add (not that it is needed) it is not officaly related to Fenerbahce Sports Club.Rivaner (talk) 06:44, 23 June 2014 (UTC) Also to answer LardoBalsamico's accusation of "manipulating the references": no. That is exactly the opposite of what I am doing. That is what he is doing. The only reason I edit warred with this user was because he was exactly doing that. I will share some diffs now and if you check my edit reasons you will see who is doing what:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5Rivaner (talk) 11:01, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Here's an another proof of LardoBalsamico's biased views. Please, take look at the article that is mentioned by Akocsg, If you look at when it got created and also when it entered the Turkish Basketball Championship article (both by the same user), you will see that there is 3 year difference between them. Also if you check this diff from another article and also it's creation date, you will see why there is a 3 years of difference between two articles. You will understand the user's main intention.Rivaner (talk) 06:50, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your time.Rivaner (talk) 07:10, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Today I deleted most parts of the 2011 Turkish sports corruption scandal and gave my reason for it and to my shock and suprise user LardoBalsamico has agreed with me. That is why I deleted all the parts related to that article in my request. I am still keeping my request because as you can see, user's behavior is more than just POV edits.Rivaner (talk) 15:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Karsad147

User:Karsad147 has on three occasions created vanity articles about himself, which were speedy deleted. User was asked to stop doing this. User returned with List of Monkey Quest characters, which is clearly not a genuine article about Monkey Quest. (Monkey Quest is a MMORPG online video game found at Nickelodeon's Nick.com website).

There are the List of Monkey Quest Charcters which are released in 2014. Sample text from article:

• Roman Brilliantant

Roman Brilliantant is the charcter he is the Sea Dragon Counter he was creatd by Karsad147 (Kyle Chester Ancheta Antoyne) He serve the Monkey King when he is adopted in 2012 the last one he appears in the upcoming video game in Nickelodeon on 2016.

Extended content

Seeno Baltotus Seeno Baltotus is the Femish charcter lives in Femland inserts him when Kyle Chester Ancheta Antoyne keeps him produce and he Became friends in Chim Foo origins in the world. Nik Calmwolf Nik Calmwolf is a Henrish charcter which he takes place in Henriland when he Besided of those he is being ocxiderd in themselves sabotaging those villains in Ook. Leonardo Loyalship Leonardo Loyalship is a Femim charcter of he is discount by the Esterators when Leonardo is afflicted by the Bad Pirates he is voweled of those 25 years ago until he is adopted to defeat Ka. Ultra Sparkwarrior Ultra Sparkwarrior is the British devoping those Arubans and Politteans under controlling him Ultra is diversed by the villains in the Carnivals and Cities under Ultra he is beyonded by the Healers

I'm not sure how we can influence positive editing from the user who penned the content above; so far the contributions are clearly disruptive and there might be a WP:COMPETENCE issue. Here is a photo the user uploaded, but it's unclear what this blurry photo labeled Episode 42 is meant to illustrate. See also: this edit, this one, and this. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:56, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

My guess is Candy Crush, but I don't know why it's here. Origamite^{\(·_·\)(/·_·)/} 16:02, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I just blanked her user page as a copy-paste copyvio from the Pokemon wikia, Bulbapedia, which operates on Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.5 according to the bottom of the page. I presume that a straight copy and paste into Wikipedia is still a violation. Blackmane (talk) 16:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC) Edit: Of course, I'm more than happy to be proved wrong and will self revert in that case. However, if it is a copyright violation, it is still in the page history. Blackmane (talk) 16:08, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

No need to self-revert, since it would be a vio of WP:USERPAGE. Unless it were to be argued that this was the user's work in progress, but I think I'd like to hear that argument from the user. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:14, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

At the top, it says "From Bulbapedia...", I went and had a look at the wikia that this referenced and its a word for word copy paste. Blackmane (talk) 18:06, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I've deleted that image under CSD F9 as a clear copyright violation. --Kinu ^t/_c 20:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

They've created List of Optimus Center characters, which I've tagged as CSD:G1 (which I think is correct). Blackmane (talk) 00:59, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

The user removed the CSD template. They're clearly not here for constructive purposes. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:58, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I just removed G1, which is not correct; patent nonsense is something different than what's there (it could totally be copyedited into something coherent). If it's a hoax, go ahead and hit it with G3. If it's a copyvio (entirely possible given the editor's track record), tag accordingly. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 04:05, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Actually just retagged as G3 for obvious hoax: just googling "Optimus Center" makes it clear there is no such work of fiction, though there is a school in the Philippines by that name. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 04:14, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Mendaliv - User appears to be active right now and reverting CSD nominations. I've warned him on his talk page and I will revert one last time, but I'm at my max. It would be helpful for an admin to handle this. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:31, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Proper final warning template issued. Next time he removes a speedy deletion template, just send him to WP:AIV if an admin hasn't already responded to this. This guy needs a block. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 04:37, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

And now at AIV following yet another revert of the speedy deletion templates. Hopefully a block will be forthcoming. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 05:45, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

An admin may want to revdel this edit from May: Karsad147 had evidently temporarily thought the way you added an image to a Wikipedia page was to open said image in a text editor, copying what was inside, and pasting it into the edit window in the "image" field of the infobox. I actually tried to reverse the process by pasting it into vi and saving as a JPEG; nothing happened, but I'm presuming it somehow is an image file and almost certainly does contain some copyrighted image. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 05:58, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Reply to Mendaliv: Thanks for the correction. I had figured that it was related to a school or something but wasn't sure whether to tag it as G3 or G1. To me it had looked like they were blending something school related to some sort of fictional setting. Upon reflection, I should have gone with G3. Blackmane (talk) 12:09, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Regarding revision 607346008, the text isn't the raw image data; rather, it's a data: URI. Most browsers can display these; just copy and paste into the address bar. In this case, it seems to be a screenshot of the character taken from the anime. I've already tagged the page with Template:Copyvio-revdel. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 01:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Damn. Learn something new every day. Much obliged for the explanation. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 01:24, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

User:CorporateM

There has been a long-standing content discussion at ResearchGate. User:CorporateM has suddenly descended and made wholesale changes to the article. ([34] but see numerous individual edit summaries). In response to my attempt to cordially challenge their bold editing, User:CorporateM has declared that s/he need not carry on a discussion with me and specifically challenged me to go to ANI if I want to proceed any further.[35]

If people here want to get into the content discussion, then I suppose they'll do so. It wouldn't hurt to have some more experienced editors get involved, as long as they are willing to listen and engage. For the present purpose, though, all that is needed is a judgment regarding User:CorporateM's disdainful tactics. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 18:18, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I was referring to the discussion already taking place at AN, which is what drew my attention to the article. CorporateM (Talk) 18:32, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I was not aware of that discussion. Nevertheless, 1) it is not clear to me which of your statements you are trying to excuse by saying you were referring to that discussion, and 2) Your snap judgments remain breathtaking. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 18:35, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• Spam issue notwithstanding: It certainly has been dramatically changed, in a fashion that removes almost entirely all criticism from the article. While the structure of the article may not be ideal, and criticism sections are not favored, I don't agree that the sources for that negative information are quite as crappy as has been suggested by CorporateM. For instance, this blog[36] seems to fit within the parameters described in the weblogs section of WP:RSE. "Weblog material written by well-known professional researchers writing within their field may be acceptable, especially if hosted by a university, newspaper or employer." However, despite the challenge to go to AN/I, I don't think this is the place to discuss such things. Coretheapple (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

It's very frustrating that I cleanup thousands of bytes of promotion without a hitch, but every time I remove equally poorly-sourced criticisms, there is an incredible amount of resistance and every possible reason is found to keep as much as possible, often using extreme interpretations of primary sources, advocacy sources, or blogs. To use a blog as an expert source, the author needs to be a renown expert within their field. There's plenty of source material in The New York Times and no reason to rely on a much less source like a blog from a library. CorporateM (Talk) 18:57, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

@Coretheapple: Thank you, that is exactly the argument I have made about that source. I agree that this is not the place for a content discussion. If your response can be taken as a nudge for CorporateM to engage in discussion instead of expecting their dictates to be followed uncritically, then we are probably done here.

@CorporateM: As I've said, I appreciate your general orientation to improve articles of this kind, and I can't speak to what you have encountered at other articles. Content discussion continued in the appropriate place. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 19:37, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

@CorporateM: The New York Times, and other news papers are not always a good source either. More often than not, a company can feed a press release to e.g. Reuters, and it will end up with minor changes in a dozen of newspapers; without much independent verification! ResearchGate is very good at this game, as seen with STAP cells. E.g. on Wired [37] and GigaOm [38] they dropped the headline "Major stem cell study debunked on scientific social network", despite the study having being "debunked" a month earlier outside of ResearchGate... and dozens of sites copied this: [39]. Paul Knoepfler, a researcher who did most of the "debunking" commented on Twitter: [40]...

Of course New York Times will not report e.g. on the potential dangers of uploading your publications to Researchgate. We have to rely on sources such as the Swinburne Library ("blog") - an NPO institution with the responsibility to assist researchers at publishing - to point out potential copyright problems with the RG approach.

Nor will the New York Times publish an article like "sorry, STAP cells were debunked before RG". Negative results just don't get published as well as press releases. In other words: news aren't good sources for anything that can write press releases full of self-advertising. And there are plenty of articles just packed with references such as that: New Relic, ZocDoc, Zoosk, Apptio, Software analytics. All packed with "references" from "news" such as ZDNet, CNet, TechChrunch; which happily "rewrite" ("retweet"?) press releases by companies. Are such sites really better than a university library? The rule "if it has 'news' in its name it is good, if it has 'blog' in its name it is bad" is too simple. --188.98.212.25 (talk) 20:23, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Given that this is the first edit ever made from this IP, I'm presuming that it is from Blue. I am also presuming that he/she merely forgot to login and that it was not an intentional effort at socking. Anyways, this discussion belongs at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. I would encourage you to start a string there after the AN/ANI discussions have been archived, presuming the topic isn't adequately discussed here. Editors may choose to discuss it here per NOTBUREAU.

Blogs are acceptable in certain rare circumstances, for example when they are authored by a renown expert in the field. Merely being published on a library blog I don't think makes it even close to acceptable, especially since there is no bio on the author and google searches do not reveal anything to suggest the author is an expert in online communities (or whatever ResearchGate is).

What you would need to provide to show that the source is acceptable is that the author is a respected expert in a related field by being off-cited by reliable sources. The comparison of "some blog" to the New York Times is not really a credible comparison. Press releases published by NYT are clearly labeled as such and are not reliable sources. Actual stories are not just reposts of press releases. CorporateM (Talk) 20:53, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Legal threats by IP and editor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Looks like the ip 70.190.0.110 and user User:BloodyCrip are the same person making legal threats: "A class action lawsuit may also be filed where you will be listed as the defendant", also made here. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 20:33, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

These people continue to harass me for cleaning up malicious links and articles that promote well known malware, including rogue software. These articles can harm millions of Wikipedia readers and internet users. Their actions can destory the reputation of Wikipedia as being a safe website. The promotion of malware should never be allowed on Wikipedia. The admins in question have no knowledge of the subject and should not be allowed to edit such articles in the future. If this harassment continues a full investigation will be conducted. BloodyCrip — Preceding undated comment added 20:51, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The legal threat appears to deal with the editor's objections to the article on Yet Another Cleaner, claiming that the subject software contains malware. While there might be something to be said for making some of the information from the controversies section more prominent... apart from that, this isn't a WP:DOLT situation. Anyway, blocks are warranted on this: even if the legal threat is not credible, it's an attempt (albeit sophomoric) to gain leverage in a dispute using threats of using the legal system to resolve an on-wiki dispute. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:54, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

And I note that BloodyCrip's response above, threatening "a full investigation" unless he gets his way, gives a pretty good idea of the situation here. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:55, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

As blatant a legal threat as can be. Before indef'ing the user, is there any merit to his claims that some of the linked sites are connected with malware? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:57, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE seems to apply for the user... Connormah (talk) 21:01, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's not a virus or trojan, but Cnet admits it messes with your registry, and looking further ([41], [42], [43]), I would treat it like malware if it came near my system or those I'm responsible for. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, the article does mention that there are criticisms of the software. There's no reason for the user to be removing sourced content and threatening those that replace it. ... discospinster _talk 22:25, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Uh..no. I won't get into the specifics here, but forum posts and warning about having any program remove registry information are not admitting it "messes with your registry". Of course a registry cleaner alters your registry. Every registry cleaner I've used warns you not to remove vital entries. So anyone that just "cleans" their registry without looking what they are removing may believe the program "messed with their registry", but the fact is, the user just did it. Also, this has nothing to do with the legal threats the IP and editor are making. They don't seem to understand what the program does either. Also, CNet has been allowing programs to install 3rd party software with their "free" versions. BUT, there are options to not install the software. In order to be available on CNet, they have to give the option to not install. And they do. Dave Dial (talk) 22:30, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

So, given all that, why hasn't the user been indef'd yet? Legal threats cannot be tolerated. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:08, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Off topic (although I didn't take it there), but the actual effect of the software on say, my mother's computer, would be no different than deliberate malware -- I'd end up spending time bringing the computer as close to the state it was in before that program was put on there due to problems caused by the software. And read the CNet page I linked to, CNet says that one of the downsides to the software is that it "can interfere substantially with your system Registry, often with negative results." Yes, all software of that kind does that, but one of the sites I linked to (which I believe is actually cited in our article) points out that it starts doing a scan whether you tell it to or not (indicating a dangerous lack of control), produce false results, and collect user data for spamming purposes. WP:Assume clue, next time. Or install it on your system and use it for a bit if you're so convinced it's safe. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:50, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I concur with Ian here insofar as the advertising component is something I'd consider highly undesirable. It wasn't long ago that the terms "adware", "spyware" and "malware" were used interchangeably; only very recently have these had any real difference in meaning (mostly because the "adware" wasn't breaking things as often as it used to). While we usually are pretty unforgiving when it comes to requiring a reliable source for certain claims, internet subculture-type stuff has been historically given a bit of leeway, especially when it comes to articles about dodgy software. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:36, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I was just going to let this silliness go unanswered, because this thread isn't about the issue being brought up. But no. It's not malware. Period. Dave Dial (talk) 01:09, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Indeffed Bloodycrip under NLT. His comments make it overwhelmingly likely that he's the same person as the IP who was making explicit legal threats, and even if he somehow wasn't, the threats he has been making haven't been appropropiate either. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:38, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I just broke my TBAN, community input appreciated

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I believe reverting obvious socks ought to be an exemption, especially with one known for copyvios, what say you? Darkness Shines (talk) 21:56, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Please see exemptions. If the user has been warned previously against copyvio and isnt heading warning there may be an exception here but its no guarantee as copyvio isnt vandalism without meeting particular circumstances. Amortias (T)(C) 22:06, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

There was no copyvio on this one, just reverting a well known sock. Simply I am asking to be let off for reverting in violation of my ban. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:27, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• A few things: Per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Nangparbat/Archive, the IP is clearly within the range and geolocates to the exact same region as previous Nangparbat socks (although, European geolocation in general and UK geolocation in particular is all but worthless). In my experience, Darkness is better at identifying N*bat socks than anyone else, and I don't remember him being wrong very often, if ever. However....this edit was N*bat deleting content not adding contentious material. Honestly, you should NOT be reverting these and in my opinion, you should instead be reporting them via email. It isn't technically listed, but in my opinion it would be within the spirit of the exceptions, as he is a banned editor. If you are reverting BLP material out of an article, then current exceptions already covers that. I don't recommend any action here (this time), and would oppose sanctions simply as you've come here for clarification and I think you were acting in good faith. But yes, you did break your Tban restriction, with the best of intentions. Please don't do that again. I don't want to see you end up blocked. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:34, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I just now saw you have already been given an exception for filing at SPI. You could do that, and email ping a clerk, or even me if you must. Seriously, DS, I know it is slower but you have to just live with it as long as you are under sanction. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:41, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
    • I agree with User:Dennis Brown here, unless it's something that clearly needs to be removed immediately (defamation, threats of violence, etc), then you should probably list it at SPI, and leave it to someone else to review and take action. In this case I don't think it's actionable since you had the good sense to bring it here for further review, but you probably shouldn't do it again. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 23:30, 20 June 2014 (UTC).

I'm a non-administrator bystander but I'm a little confused by this TBAN violation. He'd asked for another TBAN exemption to revert socks a couple of times before all this[44] [45]. Looking at the relevant Talk pages, it seems that Callanecc told Darkness Shines on June 14 to wait a couple of weeks[46] before bringing up reverting socks again; then DS asked to revert one[47] yesterday, got no answer from Callanecc, and said he'd do it anyway[48] today and came here. It's seems clear to me that DS really wants to be able to revert socks and is trying to force the issue, which seems to me to go against the spirit of the TBAN. Of course I'm neither especially experienced nor an administrator so I could be reading all this completely wrong. --Ca2james (talk) 23:59, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• He was already been given an exception for SPI right after being advised to wait a couple of weeks. He isn't asking for an exception here, just clarification. Lankiveil summed it up better than I, but we are saying no exception exists for copyvio OR socking, and saying no action should be taken over this singular, good faith breach. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:08, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Cool, thanks for the clarification. --Ca2james (talk) 02:09, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• As no one has yet objected, I issued a mini trout and notice to be more careful on DS's talk page. This should be adequate this time. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:37, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lieutenant of Melkor - continued trolling, bullying, insulting, and edit warring

[I am a novice when it comes to editing pages. Please pardon any mistakes - I'd be happy to promptly correct them]

I submit this complaint about the user Lieutenant of Melkor who has not only harassed me for days, but has trolled others for years. The following is from his archive pages

talk/archive 1

• February 10 2012 against user Mlm42: “go on to Google Books and Scholar, where tolerance for total bullshit such as "Kinmen, Taiwan" is lower
• March 19 Personal Attack against user TheGeneralUser
• June 10 2012 against 140.109.113.28
• June 15 2012 under Stiki, a threat against Rsrikanth05

Also see Rsrikanth05 archive page June 2012 from Lieutenant of Melkor (GotR) “It is self-evident that you know nothing about WP:MOSDAB” followed by a threat

• August 7 2012 under ROC/Taiwan and PRC/China against N-HH.

talk/archive 2

• December 29 2012 against Skrelk "You, as a user with less than 500 edits, have much to learn" GotR (found in revisions)
• December 31 2012 against Jon (Pimpnmonk)
• January 21 2013 against Ryulong. And … Again shortly after under "Songshan"
• February 12 2013 under "Your ANI removal of a topic against KillerChihuahua" This was particularly disconcerting as Lieutenant of Melkor appeared to be deleting evidence in dispute in an active case as he did with me. Furthermore by his own admission he violated Talk-Page guidelines and appeared to sidestep ANI guidelines.
• February 2013, warned by Favonian about edit wars
• February 23 2013 under Edit Summaries, warned by GeorgeLouis for his edit summary comment “I'm not going to put up with this tomfoolery” and again in March 2013, again warned about edit wars
• March 22 against Emmette Hernandez Coleman
• August 16 under Non-sock accounts, acknowledgment of and admonishment for “his poor behavior”.

2014 incidents - the following occurred as recently as Feb to May 2014 Feb 17 2014 ANI NOTICE [“I am not a repeat convict but instead one who previously did not control his temper well. I also intend to subject myself to a 1RR (usual exceptions for vandalism, spamming, etc.) to minimise the risk of edit wars, not use edit summaries exceeding one sentence, and abide by a strict WP:NPA policy”] M.o.p. replied “if you edit war, you will be blocked again. If you make anything even resembling a personal attack or jab at another editor, ditto” M.o.p. (master of puppets continued with his final warning to Meltor "It should go without saying that violating any of these terms will result in the reinstatement of your block" Since this warning by an administrator a mere four months ago, Melkor has been

• warned by [AlexF (Feb 13)] for disruptive editing,
• rude to [Onel5969] "I have no blazing idea what you are talking about"
• personally attacked [on May 3 "an IP on well-known policy when said user can't even avoid opening the article like a newspaper"]
• warned by (possible admin) [Philg88] for his edit comments "pathetically has nothing better to do" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paisan1 (talk • contribs) 20:31, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
• Giantsnowman (May 11) and subtropical man (May 24) for edit warring. He has personally attacked Onel5659 (Feb 26), Eldumpo and Giantsnowman (May 1), an IP user (Mar 3 - "I don't need any lecturing by an IP on well-known policy when said user can't even avoid opening the article like a newspaper" ), and even administrators (April 1 to Tokyogirl79 - "The irrationality of most administrators continues to confound me"). In this year alone he has been warned by two users/administrators about comments: Philg88 twice (Mar 20 and May 13) and Rhaworth (Apr 3)

Also I do not wish to be disingenuous with the administrators or the readers. While I am aghast at his unprofessional and cowardly behavior, I confess that I am also amused and entertained at his degree of rudeness, foulness, cowardice and hypocrisy (his revolting responses to polite inquiries would be hilarious if they weren’t so offensive to the norms of common decency). The following brief account will show both his insults and offenses as well as my own retaliatory reactions to them – again, to be frank, as I always deal with internet trolls, I reacted, communicated, “bandied” with him in his manner, “holding the mirror up” so to speak.

PERSONAL ATTACKSOn June 16, 2014 I corrected Austin, Texas to indicate that it is the 29th largest city in the U.S. I had previously corrected this months ago, and was frustrated that someone made the mistake again – I commented “Man I hope this is the last time we have to do this. There are 28 larger cities in the U.S.” Melkor responded on my user_talk:paisan1 page about his “wholesale reverting my edits,” “w.r.t. population”. Not knowing what “w.r.t. population” means [and I laugh at myself about this] I failed to find out what kind of population is “w.r.t.” I politely asked him via email since to me (and most people) this is the most efficient way of communicating as opposed to editing a page. I invite the administrators to review the interaction in its entirety user_talk:paisan1(less the beginning email to him which I assure was professional and simply inquired why he was being rude and why he would criticize me of not knowing what “w.r.t. population” meant whilst misspelling the word “realize”, and also why he was rude in his edit summary saying “man you had better realise no one cares about area rankings except for maybe JAX, Juneau, etc” (see revision history of Austin, Texas). I ceased being polite since it was obvious he had no intention of maturely communicating.

DELETING THE EVIDENCE along with continued personal attacks Administrators may admonish me for not signing on my own page, but one thing I did not do was delete any of our comments - I would never delete evidence like that. Meltor on the other hand did so on Revision as of 18:19, 18 June 2014. He deleted the comments in their entirety up to the original post. He intentionally deleted the evidence of his harassment. On MY talk page. And his edit summary comment: “what a farce of a diploma”, not the first of his edit summary insults to me and not the last. He deleted it again at 19:43. And again at 23:26. Then he/she, the aggressor, warned me about attacking other editors. I cut and pasted it to his talk page. He once again deleted the evidence and tagged the warning at the bottom of my talk page. I reversed it and pasted the warning on his page again. (He appears to have either elicited help from IronGargoyle or IronGargoyle is Meltor using a different login/email account. I suspect the latter since under IronGargoyle the same warning tag was coincidentally placed on my page where none was placed on Meltor’s, but I remain uninterested)

VIOLATED THE GUIDELINES by tampering with the code in my talk page To make things worse, Meltor then went into my talk page and inserted an archive box – I never gave permission for that – and he listed it as “for your good” (if it was for my good, why did he not do that before he deleted the posts on my page?). Melkor then systematically changed the dates of the posts to June 8 so that the posts would archive and disappear from my talk page. His comment: “this will do the bloody trick”. My posts archived and I had to undo his violation. His final comment was to ask me if I was “stupid or void of common sense” since I have “chosen to accept” the auto archive, when in reality I never chose to accept anything since he himself entered the code to do so on my talk page. And his final edit comment: “Wow 60+ edits in, and still no idea how to rvt multiple edits instantaneously 0_0”.

Clearly Meltor has benefited Wikipedia in one or two significant areas: Climate, China, and Taiwan. However, given the history of this editor, his harassment of me and others, his boorish interaction with others, his bullying edit wars, and his clear lack of respect for the administrators and the guidelines, surely we’ve reached the point where the burden of his annoying and counterproductive actions and comments outweigh any perceived value of his contributions, projects that could be taken up by someone else. How many other editors have to complain about him/her? He is a student who revels in the god complex nature of creating weather boxes while exhibiting legitimate signs of aspergers, or at least a complete lack of understanding social interaction. If I am honest enough to admit my retaliation and counteractions to his aggression, then also believe me that I make that last statement with no interest in being “amusing” at all, nor being amused; Meltor should not be allowed to continue as an editor. --Paisan1 (talk) 09:35, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

tl;dr 207.38.156.219 (talk) 12:13, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• As our IP friend indicated above, too long, didn't read. Do us a favor and read that linked essay, then read WP:DIFF to learn how to provide diffs (examples of editor problems should always be diffs, not quotes), and please work on being concise. I am admittedly too verbose, but you have me beat. There is no way anyone is going to read and research all that in the format you provided, it would take over an hour. Another short essay that is worth reading is WP:NOJUSTICE. Admin aren't here to dispense justice, thankfully. We just solve problems and move on. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:39, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• To take a leaf out of your book, exhibiting legitimate signs of Aspergers [It's capitalised], or at least a complete lack of understanding social interaction is likely the most severe personal attack I have seen from a good-standing editor on my time here. You are not my psychologist nor have you ever met me in person. He appears to have either elicited help from IronGargoyle or IronGargoyle is Meltor using a different login/email account I hardly knew there was an editor under that name. February 10 2012 under Sorry, against user Mlm42: “go on to Google Books and Scholar, where tolerance for total bullshit such as "Kinmen, Taiwan" is lower You can't find anything recent? That was eons ago and you may find NONE OF THAT after restoration of my good standing in February.
• And for what purpose are you here? This ("appreciate the entertainment value") and this (scroll to the very bottom, "I will continue to enjoy calling him on it.") suggest you are in a battleground-like mentality with the purpose of seeking retribution against me. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 17:22, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Concur with the point on suggesting Lieutenant of Melkor is exhibiting signs of Aspergers. That is quite the serious personal attack. I would also strongly advise Paisan1 to provide a short summary of the complaints, three paragraphs or less, and entirely without the editorializing. What you've provided here is too long for a RfC/U, let alone an ANI thread. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 17:37, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I will begin the process of editing the complaint today and attempt to finish tonight (I have other projects) and I thank you for the input. Again, I meant the Asperger's comment with sincerity, not meant as a jab ("no interest in being 'amusing' at all). A major symptom of Asperger's is a person's inability to monitor and adhere to the norms of social propriety and interaction. The evidence above, especially towards editors who were POLITE to him/her, shows either his true inability or his complete apathy towards common consideration. For the latter I'd be happy to insult because then we'd know it wasn't psychological disability. I regret the Aspergers comment and withdraw it NOT out of an apology since I did not mean it as an insult but because it was misinterpreted as such. I'd be happy to remove it, but I leave it in tact as evidence against me, the victim of his harassment.

To the admins and the other readers, please note that Melkor continues to sidestep the issue. The entire list from his Archive page 3 are recent offenses. Furthermore, my entire interaction with him was only this past week with numerous personal attacks, not "eons ago". His response that my Asperger's comment was "the most severe [he's] seen" exhibits his hypocrisy since he continually called others "insane". While I am editing, I ask the admins to review this case, how he has attacked me and others this year alone, and how he manipulated my talk page to delete the evidence three times (and later under the guise of archiving).--Paisan1 (talk) 18:11, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, I meant the Asperger's comment with sincerity Regardless of your intent, you have never claimed anywhere to be a trained/qualified psychologist and the like, and for all we know, you may be acting an impostor. Archive page 3 What Archive? my entire interaction with him was only this past week with numerous personal attacks, not "eons ago" In nearly all of the cases, some falsified /deliberately mis-represented, that you cited, they did indeed occur eons ago. If you found my "w.r.t. = with respect to. Very easy to look up" remark condescending you could have chosen to ignore it (it's not as if I used a ridiculous acronym in the likes of what is found here). Instead, you played along as I expected someone with a battleground mentality to do and stated you "enjoy calling him out" (link above). To the admins and the other readers, please note that Melkor continues to sidestep the issue. Until you learn to heed the advice of Dennis Brown and Mendaliv, no one has any reason to do address the "issue". To most others, all of what you have written here at AN/I is nothing short of unsupported babble. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 19:03, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, administrators, please note above how Meltor sidesteps the issue to detract from the issue while proving his hypocrisy. He himself never claimed anywhere to be a trained/qualified psychologist and the like, and for all we know, [he] may be acting an impostor as he has called me and others "insane". He sidesteps with "w.r.t." since I indicated on my talk page user_talk:paisan1 that it didn't bother me and still laugh about as indicated above; all the while still refuses to consider that he shouldn't have said any of the insults that I have listed above against me and others THIS YEAR. --Paisan1 (talk) 19:14, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Burden of proof is on you, boy. So far, NOT ONE link.

• Yawn*. Paisan1, You are belabouring under the delusion that I can somehow 'delete evidence'; the only way to do so on this site is to act in an administrative capacity. Pathetic "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 19:18, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Melkor, you've picked a bad neighborhood and time to be smug. These comments and that fact that you are pointing out anyone's Aspergers shows there probably is something to investigate. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:35, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

@Dennis Brown: I am not clear on what you mean. Are you implying I suggested at any point that someone has Aspergers? The only person doing that here is Paisan1. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 19:39, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I have linked your talk page with full access to your archive. Do you deny any of the offenses I have listed out? Don't worry - I already know you will neither deny nor confirm. Sidestepping. --Paisan1 (talk) 19:44, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

To the readers and admins, editing pages is new to me so I appreciate your patience. I have edited much of the above account and will do my best to link the "diffs" for your review of Melkor's violations. I ask the administrators to grant me one consideration. If I had been an isolated incident there would be no ANI submission here. He simply barked up the wrong tree. But he has harassed others and violated guidelines as recently as LAST MONTH, and this after his previous ban where he said he would strictly adhere to them. With respect to Dennis Brown consider this not justice but an end to an two-year long problem.--Paisan1 (talk) 19:47, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

TO EVERYONE, Asperger's is a serious mental condition. To be very clear, I did not use it as an insult the way that some might use the r-word for someone with autism. I would not do that; I have my own personal reasons, and it's beneath me. I have not claimed to be an expert either, but you don't have to be an expert to compare the serious problems that a true Asperger's syndrome person has with social interaction with the continued and consistent rudeness and lack of professional communication that Melkor has exhibited. I truly regret the comment, NOT because Melkor may have been insulted (I am indifferent on that), but because it has mistakenly caused alarm and misunderstanding. The irony is that if Melkor had Asperger's (which I still wonder about) it would stir honest sympathy from me - I'd probably drop this whole submission.Paisan1 (talk) 19:58, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Paisan1: you're just digging yourself deeper. It's entirely inappropriate (not to mention offensive) to start commenting on a fellow editor's mental state. If you have a problem with Lieutenant of Melkor's conduct, then comment on that. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not that thrilled with either of them at this stage. Real life keeps interrupting me, and this mess (as I've noted above) is impossible to investigate properly without diffs. I'm seeing lots and lots of rudeness, and it isn't all coming from one person. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:12, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Mendaliv, how am I digging myself deeper when I expressed regret at ever using the term? I'd like to try again - TO EVERYONE due to misinterpretation I completely retract and regret the reference to Aspergers. I propose we move on with the subject at hand, set aside that I ever used that term, and proceed with the presumption that all parties involved are not hindered by anything and are fully accountable for their comments and actions. I hold myself accountable which is why I have not deleted anything from my talk pages or archives in full candor and which is why I retract and regret the mistake mentioned in this inserted post. I hope that Mendaliv and Dennis Brown will likewise hold Melkor accountable for the list of offensive comments (including referring to my sanity and others) and his recent actions for which he promised in an earlier ANI case (where he was banned) to avoid doing in strict adherence to guidelines. --Paisan1 (talk) 20:27, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I must step away for several hours. I will return to summarize my argument in following Dennis' advice. Please note that it appears that Melkor has unarchived his posts and yet I am now not able to locate some of the incidences listed above for linking and referencing. Thank you, administrators, for your consideration. --Paisan1 (talk) 20:31, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Any comments about another editor's mental status are inappropriate. Comment about content, or (where behavior is a problem and it's actually necessary), on-wiki behavior. Do not make claims about people's motivations, their off-wiki activities, or the like. With very, very limited exceptions (I honestly can't even think of one offhand) it will only serve to take the intended discussion right off the rails (as has happened here). So let's all move on and, as Dennis has advised you, produce diffs as you've been instructed. Mere reference to archive pages and the like is not going to help you. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:36, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE. Melkor has deleted his archives in their entirety. Where at first it might appear that they are all on his talk page, several of the referenced incidences above are now gone; including but not limited to two of his ANI reproaches. He said earlier that I was belaboring (spelled correctly) under the delusion that [he] can somehow 'delete evidence', he has proved that it is not delusion. I will still make my case, but evidence has been figuratively shredded

I've got a couple points. First, if you provided evidence in the form of diffs, which you have been asked to provide several times, it would not matter what Lieutenant of Melkor did to his user talk archives. Second, for heaven's sakes, it doesn't help your case to be using <big> tags around your contribs. Just chill out. Go back and find diffs. Provide them. Provide a concise summary of what's going on. I promise you that if you can follow those instructions your complaint will receive all the consideration it is due without prejudice because of any prior mistakes you may have made here. Just do that much. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 21:19, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

When you say "deleted", do you mean blanked or properly deleted by an admin? --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 21:23, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Apparently Lieutenant of Melkor tagged his user talk archives as {{db-u1}}, but at the same time restored all the archived content to his user talk page. As long as the edit histories are intact as well, I see no problem with that. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 21:34, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Can the deleting admin recover them if not? --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 21:40, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

@Skamecrazy123: It doesn't matter since the user talk itself is intact. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 21:49, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, but I don't think it's necessary. It's all in Lieutenant of Melkor's user talk page history. It falls to Paisan1 to get the diffs. I don't think it's that much to ask. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 21:51, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. I only brought it up to make a point that there were ways and means of getting the evidence needed (if it existed in the first place) even if it had been properly deleted. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 21:53, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I already knew it could be retrieved from the talk page history but aside from the fact that Melkor is simply trying to make things more difficult and postpone accountability is there no one besides maybe skamecrazy123 that is questioning why he deleted them in the first place? No suspicion? (I'm still away on business; will return with diff links tonight - thank you for your input Skame and Malv)--Paisan1 (talk) 22:22, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

No, there's no suspicion. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely odd, but it's such a triviality to look at page histories that no experienced editor would consider it an effective means of covering things up. Especially when he's restored the previously-archived comments at the same time. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 22:33, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not even sure if it's considered odd. What he seems to be doing is restoring the archived content to the talk page, maybe to provide a quicker way for Paisan1 to get the diffs he needs. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 22:58, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty damn weird to even edit your own user talk archives: almost everyone lets a bot do it for them, and then never even looks at the archives again unless they have to go to ANI over something. Even the people who delete certain notices from their user talk pages (I'm not one of them) usually leave stuff that's been archived alone. But for some reason, Lieutenant of Melkor found it necessary to restore his user talk archives to his user talk page. Without more, it's one of those "who cares" things. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 00:17, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Maybe being one of those "damned weirdos" who archives by hand has given me some (possibly unwarranted) empathy with him. Considering the talk page history is intact, I agree with you about the "who cares" bit. Let's see what, if anything, Paisan1 gives us as far as diffs go. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 00:26, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I am surprised and disappointed that no one is suspicious - he suddenly moves his entire archive to his talk page shortly after receiving notice, but no suspicion? OK. In the above history of incidences I listed a February 2013 "Your ANI removal of a topic". You'll find that it is no longer listed on his talk page and no longer in his archives. The same for the ANI NOTICE from Feb 17 2014. He has fooled you into thinking that he was doing something helpful. This surprises me he has succeeded in doing so, nevertheless, I will link to the diffs. Mendaliv I "have been asked several times" for diff links in the middle of the day when I have barely had a chance to do them correctly. I have asked for patience in this - would you please grant that to me as the first thing I did per Dennis was to edit my submission down and the second was to read both of the two or three articles sent to me all the while multitasking and working. I will provide evidence of the claim in the previous sentence when I do the diff links. (I am TIRED, buzzed, and very happy. Just got home after midnight and I will do a poor job if I try to do this tonight. I am not as fast as Melkor - he was able to speedily delete his archive before I could start reading the essays)--Paisan1 (talk) 04:20, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

You've had 17 hours to find and present them, which you should have done in the all-important first post. Everyone here has lost their patience. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 04:26, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Lieutenant of Melkor: Do yourself a favor and holster the 'tude. I would not recommend adding archive templates or completely deleting this thread again. It will end... poorly. @Paisan1: Just go to bed (or continue enjoying yourself); this thread will still be here in the morning. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 04:33, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Mendaliv: He's had 17 hours. More than enough time to excavate any jetsam and flotsam he wants. He failed not only with the first post (most crucial), but in subsequent engagements with him. Time to pull the plug on him. Work is no excuse; for all we may know he may be falsifying again. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 04:39, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, I urge you to walk away from this and give Paisan1 additional time to present his case. If he continues playing around, then someone other than you will archive this thread. Work is an excuse, and while he may have failed on the original post, WP:BITE means we don't just kick him out of here for it. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 04:42, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• Hey, sorry if this comes at a bad time, but I noticed the section header and recognized LOM's username; just a few days ago, I left a frivolous message on his talk page about it (I am a lover of all things Tolkien). I skimmed through bits and pieces of this debate, but one thing really stuck out at me — the reference to Asperger's syndrome. Ignoring the merits of the accusations made, I felt compelled to comment here based solely on that, as mental health is something I'm very passionate about.

  I was diagnosed with high-functioning Asperger's syndrome about fifteen years ago now. And by "high-functioning", I really do mean high-functioning — most people would never guess that I had the condition. The hallmark symptoms are not immediately evident in my case. I am very apt at nonverbal communication and have never had any issues with making friends. I'm a textbook example of a highly sensitive person. I dislike talking about myself, but I do take pride in believing that I am seen as someone with tremendous compassion and empathy for others, both on Wikipedia and in the real world. Yet my sensitivity plays into my diagnosis in a unique way. I do struggle with interpreting social cues, but not in the sense where I act out in inappropriate ways. Instead, it manifests itself as a tendency to interpret certain situations in a negative light. For example, say I was walking past somebody in the hallway and I smiled at them, but they didn't reciprocate; I would oftentimes feel that I had somehow made them uncomfortable. There are a million different reasons why someone would not smile back, and it doesn't necessarily tie into anything I've done. Another common issue I have is assuming that people see themselves as "above" me when they do not respond to my messages on social media sites. The condition is very unique and carries a spectrum of its own. Mine is probably one of the mildest documented cases, and it does not prevent me from doing the things that neurotypical people are capable of doing (I have other disabilities that do hinder me in a lot of ways, but AS is not one of them).

  For a long time, the condition was virtually unknown within the public sphere. Nobody had any idea what it entailed, and most never even heard the term before. Only within the past five or ten years has it become a well-known psychiatric disorder. Naturally, it has since become a go-to "diagnosis" used by professional internet trolls to deride anyone they deem socially awkward. This is obviously a grotesque insult to those who do not have the condition, as it calls their social competence into question. When you say that someone has Asperger's, the implication is that they are fundamentally lacking in social skills. It's also insulting when directed at someone who does have the condition, considering how they are likely more sensitive to negative feedback about their social interactions than others. But did you know that it's offensive to people with Asperger's syndrome even if they are not the ones being targeted? It generalizes the whole diagnosis and creates the presumption that most or all people with Asperger's are a certain way. The saying goes: "If you've met one person with Asperger's, you've met one person with Asperger's." There is little in the way of commonalities between cases outside of the overarching criteria. It should always be remembered that people with AS are individuals with their own unique personalities and interests, as with any other person. Another thing to keep in mind is that Asperger's is nothing to be ashamed of. It's almost like being homosexual, or having a genetic predisposition to colon cancer (just as a random example). You are born with it, and you are pretty much guaranteed to die with it. Doesn't make you any less of a human being than everyone else.

  So please, don't bring psychiatric conditions into your disagreements with others. It is gravely insulting to the subject of your speculation and broadly offensive to people with those conditions. You can say that someone doesn't seem to "get it", but you can't give them a full-blown diagnosis based solely on your limited observations of their behaviour. Kurtis ^(talk) 08:21, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

So I decided to take a quick look at Lieutenant of Melkor's userpage, since userpages often help you get a feel for a user's personality, and Lieutenant of Melkor's responses towards the end of the above exchange left me very concerned. I noticed that he seems to be maintaining a shitlist/wall of shame—such lists being violative of WP:UP#POLEMIC—including at least one instance of calling another user a "loser", and another suggesting that Paisan1 above attained his academic credentials fraudulently. But this doesn't end at that point. I checked the diff LoM includes in that list item, which suggests that Paisan1 is more of a loser than the other editor. What follows is what I discovered.

The diff turned out to be Paisan1 reverting an edit of LoM at Paisan1's own user talk page, restoring several posts in a thread on that page, including several posts of LoM. That is, LoM had for some reason removed an entire thread of conversation from Paisan1's user talk page. That left me curious. So I examined the page history some more.

From 18 June to 19 June, LoM broke 3RR on Paisan1's user talk page in the following edits: [49] [50]* [51] [52] (* was by 96.255.46.87, which is clearly LoM editing while logged out). The coup de grace was this creative edit, where LoM modified all the signatures in that thread (which were all his) from 17 June to 8 June. Why? Immediately before doing this, LoM set up automatic archival "for" Paisan1. By changing all those sigs to 8 June (when the current date was 19 June, and auto archival was set up to happen after 10 days), he caused these two edits to happen: [53] [54]. How did Paisan1 fix this? Not by noticing LoM's alteration of his own comments and reverting those edits, but by changing the thread archival time to 100 days.

I am shocked beyond belief. I submit that LoM has clearly engaged in bullying of an inexperienced user, and that sanctions for this conduct are merited. I personally offer my apologies to Paisan1 for not seeing this before. It wasn't as big as my nose in front of my face, but it should have been visible had I done much more than demanding diffs. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 06:37, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

And pinging my learned colleague Dennis Brown who had also joined in the call for diffs above, and shown concern in this thread. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 06:39, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Mendaliv: I haven't edited his talk page for many hours, and you still want action? My goodness, your tone wreaks of "the press screaming for blood" (as described in Tomorrow Never Dies). I'd rather go about minding my own business than dealing with twerp issues such as this, I'm sure you feel the same. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 07:04, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Please re-read my post above. I'm not talking about a 3RR block. You would do well to take this seriously. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 07:09, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Mendaliv: sanctions for this conduct are merited still your words. By the way you have posted here, you seem to be operating under the delusion (I'm not consciously violating WP:NOTTHEM here), that Paisan1's behaviour WAS NOT an aggravating factor, namely the outright, repeated, unjustified refusal to sign posts on his talk page, other issues aside. It's best if everyone here move on, drop it, and forget about it for good. This still appears to be nothing more than a personal vendetta, only to be piled on typical AN/I fashion. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 07:17, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I was wrong: the edit warring likely does merit sanctions given 1RR was a condition of your unblock. @Master of Puppets: You may wish to examine this case, if you're still active. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 07:48, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• This high level of interference with a talk page is unacceptable. I don't know either party and am uninvolved, but LoM appears to be defiant and combative, a clear vio of WP:BATTLE. From what I am reading above, I ask that an admin block LoM at once. Jusdafax 07:52, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• @Jusdafax: Right, but I have no interest whatsoever in touching his talk page in the near future. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 07:55, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

But that still doesn't excuse you from breaking the 3RR rules and fiddling about with Paisan1's user page in the manner that you have done. Not to mention your confrontational attitude. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 10:21, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to note that a few the user's edit summaries are also a bit bitey/uncivil, as well: "What a farce of a diploma", presumably referring to Paisan1's education level, and "Wow 60+ edits in, and still no idea how to rvt multiple edits instantaneously 0_0", which, presuming it's referring to use of the undo button to do so, is something I myself didn't learn I could do until recently (and I only learned because Wikia's recent changes nest contributions) and I have over 4000 edits. This isn't a lot (but I didn't do intense searching), and I'm not sure it's any sort of evidence of a larger problem, but it may be evidence that LoM might lose his cool during disputes. - Purplewowies (talk) 11:50, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Lieutenant of Melkor: May I point out WP:BOOMERANG. Your actions are just as open to scrutiny as Paisan1s. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 13:42, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Mr. Kurtis, it was because of the mere possibility of your comment that I regretted mine, which is also why I withdrew it. Thank you for your intelligent words on the subject.--Paisan1 (talk) 15:51, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

[this was meant to be sent an hour ago]− I am in a great mood and I am appreciative of those who took the time to research this to see that I am right on this about Melkor. I do not deny my own actions - I own up to them - but you'll hear me say this to the end: all of my actions and comments were a direct REACTION and defense to his offenses against me. You'll note that I have been practicing signing my posts in all other situations (unless signbot needed to remind me). I woke up 30 minutes ago and have to step away for just under an hour. I have not had time to review the proof someone else provided above. Are they the diffs that were needed? I will return home with the intent of going through my talk page history and Melkor's to provide the proof unless Mendaliv or Dennis tells me otherwise. Mendaliv, apology accepted but unnecessary - thank you, I am very grateful and relieved. Thank you also for understanding about my work schedule. I ask the administrators to take one more thing into account before I return with my diffs links and summary of argument: PLEASE NOTE, as is his way of sidestepping the issues, Melkor has yet to address or even deny any of the allegations I have set forth.--Paisan1 (talk) 15:51, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Mendaliv, I do not say this in defiance or disrespect so please do not misinterpret: (in response to Melkor's accusation that my unsigned posts on my talk page was "unjustified") I will never apologize for not signing my posts on my talk page (and this is important) whilst I was defending myself with Melkor. Anyone will note that the reason Melkor brought up the signing issue was not simply to correct an impropriety but to (as is consistent with his behavior) sidestep the issue at hand by trying to make me look the offender. I happily did not play into his game. To be clear, I did not know about signing my posts until then. I barely knew I had a talk page until his post. And I have signed posts since then and intend on doing so from now on because I have no interest in breaking protocol or guidelines. I intend on signing my posts on my talk page and all other pages, but if any admin thinks that I should be banned because I didn't sign on my talk page while I was defending myself against this offender then ban away. You (Mendaliv) strike me as someone with intelligence who is desiring to be fair minded. I am grateful for that which is why I own up to you and the other admins my actions. I undid Melkor's deletion of our posts on my talk page specifically so that my actions would be open to scrutiny for everyone to see. It is my continued hope that the admins see the forest for the trees - that I am just one of dozens of who have been burdened by his rude comments and unprofessional behavior. Please also note that he accused me of "falsifying again". I hope that I may count on someone to call him/her out on that now that another user has provided proof of my assertions.--Paisan1 (talk) 15:51, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

my plan (diffs) for the next two hours is to change the links above in my argument to the diffs - that is my priority. Once I do that, I will review the diffs that another user has posted so as to avoid redundancy. After that I will set forth a "closing argument" of sorts as to why Melkor shows no signs of repentance from his previous actions for which he was admonished and banned via ANI. See you soon.--Paisan1 (talk) 15:51, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

No worries, and I mean not to embarass you either. I'm sure you're an altogether decent editor who just made a few missteps. We've all said things we shouldn't have — myself more than anyone can shake a stick at. ;-) Kurtis ^(talk) 17:33, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Has he been banned? His user page no longer exists. Paisan1 (talk) 16:11, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• No, he just requested that it be speedy deleted as a userpage, just like his talk page archives. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 16:45, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Here it comes. personally attacked Onel5659 (Feb 26) Take a look at unaltered exchange in full. Nothing there resembles a personal attack in the slightest. subtropical man (May 24) User talk:Lieutenant of Melkor/Archive 2#No, you wrong In fact, he took up this issue at Template talk:Weather box, and it was determined he was the ONLY one to oppose the transclusion of templates I created; CBW asked for wider input here, and the response basically refuted Subtropical-man's assertions. Eldumpo and Giantsnowman (May 1) That's one-sided, isn't it? I suggest reading how that turned out at this venue. April 1 to Tokyogirl79 - "The irrationality of most administrators continues to confound me" That was clearly not directed at anyone in particular. and Rhaworth (Apr 3) How is this abusive in any manner? What's more, I promised I would stop creating side versions, and I did. Philg88 twice (Mar 20 and May 13) Not so much admonishment as advice and counsel. counterproductive actions and comments outweigh any perceived value of his contributions, projects that could be taken up by someone else That's not up to you to decide. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 19:46, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Mendaliv: I did not realize until now (unless I am mistaken) that you were the one that linked the diffs pages. If I am correct on that, THANK YOU! He still continues to sidestep the issue (although the above is somewhat of an attempt) since he has yet to address the edit comments against me that you and others have witnessed, nor his actions of going into my talk page and adding an archive, then archiving my talk page. But please note that he did so AFTER three times deleting them in their entirety (not to archive). As you can see above, I am linking to diff incidents since only this past February. AND that's just scratching the surface. The edit comments since the END of February AFTER his ANI warning must be seen. I have counted at least three ANI incident reports, the most recent in February 2014. I say now as I've said before and as I'll say again: if it was just me, there'd be no issue. For the best interest of the wiki community in its entirety, he should be banned. --Paisan1 (talk) 20:51, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Canvassing by Paisan1

I would like to call attention the blatant WP:CANVASSING that Paisan1 has undertaken. None of the users he has bothered (one more) regularly posts at my talk page and/or collaborates with me. While the wording in each of his messages may be neutral, the body of recipients certainly isn't, demonstrating an unequivocal violation of WP:CANVASSING, and perhaps worse. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 19:54, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I welcome any input on this. As I read the language, "In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus." I am not unduly trying to influence the decision, and once again I hide nothing. I specifically desire the input of previous admins on the subject. As far as I can tell, it is in the best interest of the wiki community to do so. If I am wrong in this, I have no problem making amends - that's how I do. As Melkor admits, my wording is VERY neutral and I simply invite review. This is yet another attempt to detract from the issue - he still has not denied any of the offenses he has committed. Paisan1 (talk) 20:39, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

If you truly welcomed all input, you would also have notified those who are regulars at my talk page. I am not unduly trying to influence the decision This, specifically the last sentence, shows otherwise. If this is all you can provide in two edits, when I have supplied the very same links (and even more) before you did, I am disappointed, to say the least. As I read the language, "In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus." However, it seems you came here with the unabashed intent (and continued) to terminate once and for all my improvements to Wikipedia. For you, hearing the opinion of others is secondary to this. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 21:05, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Lieutenant of Melkor:To hear the opinion of others is the only way this is going to get sorted, one way or the other. Having said that, from that last diff you provided, it would seem that he is inappropriatley canvassing, although an explanation from @Paisan1: would be welcomed. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 21:15, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Skame. He is once again sidestepping - detracting from the issue at hand by taking my words out of context. This is important in order to avoid accountability. By "all" input I was referring to the subject of asking for review from others who have mentioned his edit comments (and to my knowledge also those with whom he claims to have made peace with). But more importantly I included admins who have directly admonished him or have been involved with him in his previous ANI incidents. To the readers, I'd like to point out that I have no interest in impressing Melkor with my page editing skills, my talk-page deleting skills, my archive-creating skills, nor the amount of time I dedicate to Wikipedia, including this interesting subject. To the admins, I respectfully offer that the more he speaks the more information you receive to make your decisions. (and he still doesn't respond to the insults against me nor the violations against my talk page) --Paisan1 (talk) 21:26, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Yet again ignoring posts of mine or aspects of the "incidents" you cite which you dislike. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 21:30, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

For the record and for all to see, this is the post I put on Master of Puppets page (who was directly involved in his previous ANI ban and who specifically warned him against even one more attack): "have filed an incident report against Lieutenant of Melkor. I invite you to come and review the complaint - comment completely at your option. Diffs have been provided by another user and additional diffs will be provided by me in the next hour." I feel that it is neutral and does not encourage them to weigh in one way or another.--Paisan1 (talk) 21:35, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Paisan1:My concern is not with the content of the messages you sent out, but this diff here ([55]) which, if I am honest, does seem to suggest that you are approaching only users who have been supposedly affected by Melkor, in order to sway opinion here. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 21:41, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Skame, I am super late and must go. I think you may have inadvertently used the wrong link. Am I incorrect?

Don't let me keep you then, but I am sure the link I used is correct. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 21:58, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I've got to go away again. The above list of offenses to others prior to his offenses against me speak for themselves. They are linked because Melkor has (had) purposely deleted them from his archive and talk page (for instance, the ANI notices and discussions on his talk page). I regret that although I have more links to give, I still have to compile my summary argument which I intend to be very brief. I plan on doing so BEFORE listing to you (the reader and admins) the personal attack edit comments he made towards others. I don't think he will account for the offensive words he used against me nor the violative actions (deletions) he performed on my talk page. So I'll readdress those tonight after USA wins. Thank you for your inquiry @Skamecrazy123: and your objectivity @Mendaliv: and your opinion @Jusdafax:--Paisan1 (talk) 21:48, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

No worries, although I still would like to hear your views on the diff I mentioned above. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 21:54, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: Indefinite block

In light of the fact that Lieutenant of Melkor (formerly known as Guardian of the Rings, also known by the name of his three known socks Mathpianist93, Xiaoyu of Yuxi, and Tartanator) has blatantly violated the conditions of his WP:OFFER unblock that was granted in February. Specifically, the unblocking admin formally put him on notice that "if you edit war, you will be blocked again. If you make anything even resembling a personal attack or jab at another editor, ditto." LoM has edit warred, on Paisan1's user page, and engaged in the rankest incivility I have seen in some time, as noted above, though this was not his first "infraction" since his unblock.

In March, all of a month following LoM's first unblock, he was blocked again for edit warring with an IP. Master of Puppets, the original unblocking admin, tried to make a comment on LoM's user talk putting the blocking admin on notice of the past 1RR restriction. LoM reverted it with an automated edit summary. MoP restored it, and LoM engaged in various argumentation as to why MoP's notice wasn't appropriate, etc. Finally, when the block expired, LoM removed the comment yet again, and then removed the block discussion entirely. While this last diff is LoM's privilege, it is evidence of a further behavior of talk page and archive tomfoolery that is at the heart of LoM's misbehavior.

I hereby formally call for the restoration of LoM's indef block for blatant violation of the terms of his unblock, as well as general incivility.

Survey

1. Support as proposer. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 22:18, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
2. Oppose First things first. As was determined here, none of the three accounts were used to improper ends, so the "sock" label is wholly inappropriate. 2) Nowhere did MoP explicitly state something along the lines of, "if you violate any of these terms, your indefinite block will be restored". 3) Mendaliv has shown a complete disregard for my improved behaviour (compared to past years). I have exercised greater restraint in the ordeal with the IP he mentioned (AN/I discussion of that topic here) 4) While this last diff is LoM's privilege, it is evidence of a further behavior of talk page and archive tomfoolery that is at the heart of LoM's misbehavior. Had you done the same on your own talk page, I wouldn't have cared in the slightest, citing WP:TPG. 5) engaged in the rankest incivility I have seen in some time Again, NPA, but not incivility, was mentioned. I recommend examining the plethora e-mails Paisan1 sent me. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 22:38, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
3. Support indef block - I called for this above for the talk page interference, and the violation of his previous unblock conditions puts him way over the line. Enough is enough. Jusdafax 22:57, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
4. Support - What with the continued incivility, talk page interference and now the evidence that he has breached his previous unblock conditions, I fully support an indef block. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 23:05, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
5. Support - At first I was inclined to think that Paisan1 was being unreasonable, what with not providing any evidence to back up their claims, but LoM's conduct in this thread has changed my mind. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 23:29, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
6. Support - LoM interferring with others talkpages and the behaviour here is highly unacceptable and thus leads me to believe this user isn't going to pack it in anytime soon, When you're blocked for a few hours you tend to cool down and learn from it .... I see no learning from his previous list of blocks whatsoever so I believe an indef block will hopefully make you learn from your mistakes. –Davey2010 • (talk) 23:36, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
7. Support - Given the conditions of the unblock, this seems necessary. BMK (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
8. Support The violations of the unblock are too much. Add to this the canvassing that is now occurring the user is taking too much of the communities time. MarnetteD|Talk 01:01, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
9. Support if for no other reason than violation of the unblock agreement. Admin act with the implied consent of the community, and when they go out on a limb to give to an editor a second chance, the community expects that the editor will comply with the restrictions. In this case, it is obvious that LoM has not only failed to live up to the expectations, but he has failed to even try in a significant and meaningful way. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:19, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
10. Comment Well, I'm not as deep into this (and can't see the original userpage), but it's not clear that the punishment fits the crime - I'd rather see a block of a few months than permanent. The editor User:Paisan1 called the guy a psychopath, among other angry comments. The personal attacks on the other side are similar mental capacity/state insults, snarky comments about credentials, some general heated commentary, and insistence on signing posts. Few on Wikipedia are perfect and, particularly with the decline in editors, it makes more sense to stagger the punishment and give people more of a chance to fix their behavior. Some angry back and forth is inevitable especially when it is happening on both sides. But User:Lieutenant of Melkor looks to have been driven off at this point anyway so perhaps this is moot. II | (t - c) 02:36, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

    An indef block is not a permanent block. If LoM returns, it is reasonable to expect, at the very least, an undertaking to avoid battleground behaviour in future. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:14, 23 June 2014 (UTC).
    

    How many times can a person get blocked, submit an unblock request, get unblocked with the agreement that, if they revert to the behaviour that got them blocked in the first place then they will be blocked again and then revert back to said behaviour before people start to realise that there is a limit to the chances we can give them? --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 15:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

    What was on the userpage is essentially as I describe it. The key phrase was "... likely duped his university administration into awarding him a diploma." Following this was "Quoting Darth Vader (Empire Strikes Back), 'he is as clumsy as he is stupid'." I don't care who you are, PAs like that aren't acceptable anywhere. (p.s., if someone wants to redact what I quote here, please feel free to do so without consulting me; I'm actually a bit uncomfortable even quoting it given the severity of the statement)) —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:40, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

Paisan1's e-mails to me, reproduced in their entirety (in total 18 e-mails): <redacted - posting of private e-mails without the permission of the parties involved is not allowed; could an admin please rev-del> "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 22:44, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Lieutenant of Melkor:What has that got to do with your behaviour? --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 22:51, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Fair question. It explains my general annoyance with his behaviour, including the duplication of posts BOTH here on his Wikipedia user talk AND in e-mail. My other posts in that thread are basically pushing him to sign posts (only to be met with "you lack courtesy and consideration", shouting with an irrelevant argument (it's my talk page), your hypocrisy, sidestepping issues and psychopathic problems, by your own definition you are insane) or otherwise banter as was initially the case. Thank you for the patience. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 23:08, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Lieutenant of Melkor:And yet you responded in a way that violated the terms of your unblocking --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 23:25, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Skamecrazy123: And what makes you think it will repeat itself elsewhere in the future? That's the message you are sending by !voting in the manner as you did above. Esp. given my ability (higher than most) to change as they learn from experiences, everyone here has my assurances the like won't happen again. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 23:31, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Lieutenant of Melkor: You miss the point. It already has repeated itself again, hence why Mendaliv has bought it up it here.--Skamecrazy123 (talk) 23:34, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Skamecrazy123: The talk page interference? It hasn't since I left Paisam1's talk. And if you are referring to the 1RR restriction, neither I nor MoP set it to "indefinite". In fact, I stated X number of days, which is a finite number. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 23:42, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Lieutenant of Melkor:Whether it's a finite number of days or not is irrelevant. You can't go back to said behaviour just because the time limit that was set has now passed. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 23:58, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

@Lieutenant of Melkor: here is your unblock request. It does not include "X number of days" or any suggestion that it is limited in duration. NebY (talk) 00:01, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

@NebY: Fair enough. I quoted you, to be exact. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 00:05, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I made it clear that you said X number of days the month after you were unblocked. NebY (talk) 00:26, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment The multiple accounts are not necessarily all socks as LoM is in the habit of abandoning accounts and creating fresh ones with what appears to be a frequent desire to turn over a new leaf. As well as Mathpianist93 (2006-2010), Xiaoyu of Yuxi (2010-2011), Tartanator (2011) and the previous name of Lieutenant of Melkor Guardian of the Rings (2013), he has used HXL49 2011-2012, Guerilla of the Renmin 2011-2013 and Sinfonie_non_troppo 2013, which last was a block-evading sock.
  

Master of Puppets did raise the question of LoM's offer of 1RR, which had been instrumental in his unblocking on 13 February 2014 and a condition of it. LoM replied "Nowhere did I say "subject myself to 1RR indefinitely", "subject myself to 1RR X number of days". To claim otherwise is to delude oneself. We can make those terms clearer, but my words then should be taken at face value, and not be appended to by others." on 22 March 2014.[56] NebY (talk) 23:19, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

LoM's requests to three editors 30 minutes ago look like WP:Canvassing: "Mind taking a look and lifting the barrage? Thanks much"[57][58][59] NebY (talk) 23:41, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

That's very much not good. I'd also say that late-game self-redactions like this are indeed too little, too late. And as to NebY's other points, indeed, LoM promised to adhere to certain behavior as a condition of his unblock and in a month's time had completely repudiated that promise. Having someone with such nonexistent credibility (and willingness to violate BLP in userspace: admins, please see his now-deleted userpage for the evidence) is an ongoing liability to the project. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 23:54, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

And as to the claim by LoM that the unblock conditions had no expiration date, I don't see how this can be interpreted in any way except that they were and still remain in effect. It's nonsensical that the unblocking admin would impose these restrictions intending for them to expire in a week, or however long LoM actually did obey them. And even then, we're skirting well past the NPA requirement—with NPA already being policy. LoM violated BLP in userspace by suggesting that Paisan1 had committed fraud to obtain his academic credentials. This is unacceptable in any civilized society, and would likely be sanctionable an editor in good standing made it. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 00:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

With the Wikibreak Enforcer, this is unnecessary drama and piling on of the mud, folks. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 01:03, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

How so? --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 01:05, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I figured this post was coming. Abjuring the realm is not an option in this day and age. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 01:07, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Given the tremendous time I was spending on here in recent days, I would have set it to take effect for many weeks anyway. And I'm surprised you have not heard of the enforcer... Disabling Javascript is a known loophole around it, but that's a bad inconvenience (and for practically no purpose) that I am not willing to deal with. Consider it my "cool-down time" as well. I'd be willing to accept a short-term block for that reason, among others, but no one has mentioned the premises (Abusing multiple accounts: and block evasion) of the indef block in Aug 2013 were null and void, and pretending that I was at the time blocked for any other reason is nothing short of a fairy story. "My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee ^welcome!" 01:13, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh I've heard of enforced wikibreaks. I just don't think it's a substitute for community sanctions here, particularly given the severity of the behavior. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 01:16, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Especially as he has indicated that there are loopholes to get out of it. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 01:18, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

@Mendaliv:It seems that LoM has retired, if his user page is anything to go by. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 01:33, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• A unenforceable declaration of retirement has no effect on an ANI discussion. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) I'm not so familiar with the procedure governing editors who spontaneously retire during sanction discussions, particularly ones where there's an overwhelming consensus to implement the sanction at the time of retirement. I know ArbCom cases will be held in abeyance under certain circumstances. I think in this case I'd be in favor of an "enforced retirement" in the sense of reimplementing the block. And that's all assuming that it's a real retirement. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 01:43, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

As would I --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 01:59, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Retired" or not, suggest an admin indef block him now, per the consensus above, then close this with a brief summary, and we get on with our lives. Jusdafax 02:09, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Indeed. I'm all for moving on even if the actual block discussion has only gone on for a few hours. There's overwhelming consensus for it. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 02:21, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
    • LoM has un-retired. I'm guessing it has to do with the mention of his inappropriate use of AWB below given his new wikibreak message. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 11:06, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

As an aside, should LoM return in any capacity, it should likely be with the removal of his AWB privileges given his problematic use of incorrect edit summaries. From the look of things, a very large number of his edits marked as "Adding WMO identifiers to airport infoboxes using AWB" not only made no changes to airport infoboxes, but some of those made trivial edits that were not merited at all, such as only implicating whitespace. ([60], [61]) These two edits in particular directly contravene the AWB rules of use. As do strings of edits like these. Or like this. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 02:19, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not Lieutenant of Melkor is actually retired, I've instituted an indefinite block. In light of the edit-warring on another editor's user talk page (even violating WP:3RR in the process), the harassment of other editors, there's more than enough to warrant such a block. When LoM's block was lifted, it was with a promise to abide by a 1RR. Despite that warning, LoM was edit-warring a month later and somehow skated by with a 24 hour block at the time; it seemed like Master of Puppets was suggesting a harsher penalty than that when it occurred. I'd consider the months of editing privilege between that incident and now a lucky break. -- Atama頭 17:48, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Kuwait_Towers

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hi there! Our normal closer nominated this, and both of the secondary closers have voted on it; it's a fairly simple close - all supports and over the quorum - but I'd prefer someone else actually makes the decision on whether it passes or not. If someone does, I'll do the rest. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 11:14, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

•  Done Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:30, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Thank you very much! Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 12:41, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:HOUNDING and WP:OWN by User:Dan56

During the last week, Dan56 has reverted nearly every contribution I've made to several articles that he apparently thinks he owns.

• 20 June @Get Rich or Die Tryin' (album): Citing WP:TEDIOUS
• 18 June at same: I identified some worrisome copyvios
• 17 June at same: I think "classic" is peacockery outside quotes

• 21 June @New York Dolls (album) Dan56 removed a perfectly reliably sourced addition

• 20 June @Modern Vampires of the City: [62]
• 18 June at same: [63]
• 12 June at same: [64]

There are others that I don't feel like digging up, but the point is that he seems to be following me around and reverting my helpful edits for no other reason than he wants it his way. I am feeling bullied. Like he is trying to drive me away from articles on his watchlist. Is this appropriate behavior? Harmelodix (talk) 17:53, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm guessing all three of those are on Dan's watchlist given he'd made contribs to all three of those articles prior to the reverts in question. As such, I don't think it's really fair to call it hounding. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:28, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

By that logic, one could never be said to hound anyone at a page that they had previously edited, which sounds like a dangerous tangent to WP:OWN. Harmelodix (talk) 18:32, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

No, it means that you have to provide better evidence than three articles where you were reverted that Dan had previously edited. Honestly, I would go so far as to say that the accusations of hounding and WP:OWN don't make a whole lot of sense together. Hounding suggests that an editor is (inappropriately) going out of his way to follow you around and revert your edits. Ownership suggests that an editor is excessively sensitive to any edits to articles he believes he owns. If Dan is extra sensitive to edits to those three articles, how is it hounding? How are you being singled out in that case? —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:44, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Its ownership because he vehemently protects his preferred version and its hounding because he has reverted me at multiple pages on the same day, as if to send a message that I cannot edit pages he watches. Harmelodix (talk) 18:49, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

But he didn't revert you on multiple pages on the same day, per the diffs you've provided. He reverted you seven times over the course of nine days. The most he reverted you on one day was twice. Calidum ^{Talk To Me} 18:56, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Dan56 has a long history of edit-warring over tiny details on music-related articles. I had hoped this editor was maturing. This looks like a fight over commas. This revert suggests that they don't see any actual difference between versions. The editor says their own edit is unnecessary, while making it. Why change it back if it doesn't make a difference?__ E L A Q U E A T E 18:34, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• I don't see hounding. The edit you made on June 12 he reverted here is one that made no sense. From that, it's reasonable to assume he paid extra scrutiny to the edits you've been making. I may be wrong, but I don't see any attempt on your part to discuss this with him before taking it here. Calidum ^{Talk To Me} 18:40, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I've been trying to understand his motivation, but he won't talk with me at any article stalk pages. Harmelodix (talk) 18:42, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Hounding

On 12 June, Dan56 reverted me at two different pages in the same minute. @ Modern Vampires of the City and @ Heavy metal music. How much thought is he putting into reverting me if he can make two reverts on two different pages in the same minute? Harmelodix (talk) 18:55, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

What about this Calidum? Harmelodix (talk) 18:58, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

He reverted those edits five hours after you made them. That gives him plenty of time to do review them, especially when both reverts seem perfectly reasonable. Calidum ^{Talk To Me} 19:02, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

But its still reverting me at two different pages on the same day, right, and above you said: "But he didn't revert you on multiple pages on the same day". Harmelodix (talk) 19:31, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Of course, regardless of Dan56's behavior, these need to be looked at: [65] and [66].__ E L A Q U E A T E 19:25, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

That's not me, but take a good look at Dan56's edit history and you'll see him accusing anyone who makes the mistake of editing his pages. Harmelodix (talk) 19:31, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, the point was that this all happens after Dan56 accused you of being a sockpuppet, and you weren't found to be one on technical grounds.__ E L A Q U E A T E 19:35, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• Here is Dan56 reverting me at two different pages within 13 minutes on June 9: @ Dark Magus, @ Free jazz. Harmelodix (talk) 19:52, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• Dan56 did the exact same thing to me the very next day at 02:07: @ Heavy metal music and @ The Genius Sings the Blues. What's interesting about this double revert on two different pages, is that Dan56 made two edits the minute earlier at another page, then an edit at 02:09 at yet another page for 5 edits in three minutes, which means he could not have possibly had the time to take a look at these before reverting me. He reverted me, not the edit, and that's what makes this hounding. Harmelodix (talk) 20:03, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Mindless reversions

Look at Dan56's edit history. On June 6, starting at 01:37, Dan56 makes 10 reverts in 3 minutes! He reverted Jedi94 four times at four different articles in one minute! Do you really think that he is taking the time to look at these edits, or is he just reverting anyone who edits pages on his watch list? Harmelodix (talk) 19:39, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

So wait, you're saying that it is hounding because he also reverted someone else's edits? —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 19:53, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

He's hounding not just me but others as well. The community should be concerned about this pattern. Harmelodix (talk) 20:03, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The editor interaction tool shows that Dan56 was already editing every article where you two interacted, save for the Free jazz article where you were first. This means that Dan56 is not hounding you; rather, you are showing up at articles he's already interested in. You added a musician image to Free jazz which Dan56 did not remove. You had already been reverted by Sabred at Heavy metal music before Dan56 reverted your change. At Master of Reality, both of you contributed to the article without reverting the other. So it appears to me that Dan56 is carefully assessing the changes you have made to articles he watches, and then he reverts the parts he thinks are not good. I think there's no need for action from administrators here. Binksternet (talk) 20:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

How can he make 10 reverts in 3 minutes if he "is carefully assessing the changes ... made to articles he watches"? Harmelodix (talk) 20:16, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Where does it say that if you edited the page first you can't be said to hound anyone there ever? So, whoever is there first is immune to hounding blocks? Says who, Binksternet? Harmelodix (talk) 20:19, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• On June 17, Dan56 reverted BritishInvader on two different pages: @ And Your Bird Can Sing and @ Sticky Fingers within three minutes. Harmelodix (talk) 20:14, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• As Binksternet pointed out above, Dan56's first and only edit to Free jazz was to revert me. So why did Dan revert this edit at an article he had never edited before? Did he follow me there to revert me, because that's hounding! Harmelodix (talk) 20:26, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Okay, let's assume Dan actually clicked on "User Contributions" and started checking your edits, and then reverted your edit. That is not necessarily hounding, and in fact may be wholly appropriate. I urge you to read WP:HOUNDING, and after doing so either provide clear evidence that Dan's behavior matches that definition of hounding, or give up on this report. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:29, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
    • He's trying to run me off articles and Wikipedia, and that's hounding. He followed me to a page that he never edited before or since and reverted a perfectly good contribution in an effort to make me feel unwelcome. That's hounding. Harmelodix (talk) 20:32, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Not only did he follow me to an article that he had never edited before, but that was the second article that he had reverted me at within 13 minutes. Harmelodix (talk) 20:35, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• On June 18, Dan56 reverted me at two different pages: @ Get Rich or Die Tryin' (album) and @ Modern Vampires of the City. This makes the fourth such day in a week where he reverted me at two different pages in the same day - most of these are consecutive edits. Please see: June 9, 10, 12 and 18. Harmelodix (talk) 20:51, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Boy, I'm afraid of what it would look like if someone started picking through my contribs with the intensity you seem to be picking through Dan's. Having someone go through my contribs with such a fine-toothed comb in response to my reverting a few of their edits might have a chilling effect on my editing. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 21:23, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Now you're just trolling, IMO. Just above you said: "I urge you to read WP:HOUNDING, and after doing so either provide clear evidence that Dan's behavior matches that definition of hounding, or give up on this report." Nice try! Harmelodix (talk) 21:26, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
      • (edit conflict) I did no such thing. I advised you to provide evidence, in the form of diffs, that Dan is hounding you. This shouldn't require you to go through his contribs like you're dissecting a frog. If he's been hounding you this should be obvious without having to do the kind of forensic accounting you're attempting to do here. —/Mendaliv/^2¢ /_Δ's/ 21:31, 21 June 2014 (UTC) (partly stricken due to Harmelodix's modifications to the comment to which I replied)
        • So, "either provide clear evidence that Dan's behavior matches that definition of hounding, or give up on this report", but do so without looking at his contributions? Can you please provide an example of "evidence" that does not require a diff? Harmelodix (talk) 21:34, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• I'm just doing my best here. Calidum said that two reverts on two pages in a short span is frowned upon, so I provided 4 examples of Dan56 doing that to me in one week and 2 examples of Dan56 doing that others. He hounds everybody off his articles, its not just me. How can he make 10 reverts in 3 minutes unless he is reverting editors when he should be reverting bad contributions. This is a widespread problem with this editor and I don't think I am wrong to bring this to the community's attention. Harmelodix (talk) 21:44, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• Some conclusions: Having discussed this briefly with Harmelodix at my user talk, I took another, closer look at this on my own. I am not comfortable saying there's hounding, though if Dan had a similar series of reverts within the next couple weeks, or if the series of reverts continued for a few more days, and there was an indication that Dan's behavior (see below) were targeted specifically at Harmelodix, I'd feel his behavior was at least questionable.
  All that said, I do not think Dan's hands are clean here. Some of his reverts are questionable: Reverting here to revert Harmelodix's "unexplained removal", for instance struck me as odd; it's not an "unexplained removal" in the content blanking sense. Harmelodix merely restructured the first two sentences. If Dan's intent was to invoke WP:BRD, he should have explained it and started a discussion. This revert, which the edit summary says was in order to revert an unexplained reversion... is just weird. I believe that Dan's behavior in these articles is a bit controlling; I'm not prepared to invoke WP:OWN just yet, but it's what I'd call petty. Wikipedia doesn't need to have the exact verbiage that Dan prefers.
  Moreover, given Harmelodix is a relatively new user (less than two weeks and 200 edits), I think Dan's inscrutable edit summaries, picky reasons for reverting, and curious unwillingness to engage in discussion at article talk pages serve to violate WP:BITE. While I don't think a sanction is needed at this point, Dan needs to try to work with Harmelodix rather than revert when he sees something he disagrees. Wikipedia is a group project, not an adversarial proceeding; work needs to take the form of a collaboration, not a negotiation with offers and counter-offers.
  Finally, I would formally warn Dan that WP:TEDIOUS is a redirect for "tendentious editing": if his intent is to suggest that another editor's edits are tedious, he should not be putting that link in his edit summaries (I would also argue that calling another editor's edits "tedious" is not particularly friendly). If, however, his intent is to argue that Harmelodix is engaged in tendentious editing, he would be well advised to make a showing of proof. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 00:12, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the thoughtful and well-reasoned comments, Medaliv. I think its important to note that, while Dan56 has decided to not discuss this issue with us here, he has continued his mindless reverting at articles that he edits. Just an hour ago, starting at 16:18, 22 June 2014, Dan56 reverted Joe Vitale 5 FIVE TIMES in 2 minutes! Can someone please address his disruptive and alienating behavior of mindlessly reverting editors that contribute to Wikipedia. Dan56 is all but killing WP:BOLD at any article that he edits. Harmelodix (talk) 17:19, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• Whose hounding who now? Instead of "mindlessly reverting" as you claim, Dan posted to the other editor's talk page to explain the reverts [67]. I also don't get your obsession with 'he made X reverts in Y minutes.' How long do you think it takes to review each edit? Calidum ^{Talk To Me} 22:24, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• Looking further, I think you, Harmelodix, are the problem here. Dan attempted to voice his concerns with you here. So what did you do? Voice your concerns about his reverts? No. Heed his advice? No. Explain the edits you've been making? No. You simply dismissed his concerns, saying "your writing is verbose and redundant, bra!" I really suggest you stop hounding Dan before the boomerang comes back and hits you. Calidum ^{Talk To Me} 23:17, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• While I agree that Harmelodix is going a little far here, he does point out some problems that Dan should address. Again, while I'm not willing to call Dan's conduct hounding or ownership at this point, it's something that should be addressed. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 11:25, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Continued ownership issues with Dan56

• Mendaliv, above you said "if Dan had a similar series of reverts within the next couple weeks, or if the series of reverts continued for a few more days, and there was an indication that Dan's behavior (see below) were targeted specifically at Harmelodix, I'd feel his behavior was at least questionable." On June 20 I added this review, to an article, which Dan56 then reverted with the edit summary: "Not a quotefarm for impertinent, off-topic lines that deviate from the section", which is odd because the section is titled "Legacy and influence", which is exactly what the quote spoke to. So, since Dan56 didn't want a quote from MusicHound, I accepted that and went to the talk page to discuss. In the meantime I added just the review score to the review box with no in-line prose, and today Dan56 has also reverted that sourced addition, citing the titles lack of notability. I think this demonstrates a serious ownership issue with this user, who resists any and all change at articles on his watchlist. Harmelodix (talk) 16:51, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Surprise, surprise, Harmelodix is telling half-truths again. Sure, Dan did revert your addition of the MusicHound quote. But you conveniently fail to mention that he re-added part of the quote back in the proper place soon after [68]. Calidum ^{Talk To Me} 17:09, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• I wasn't tying to mislead anyone, but technically that's still a partial revert, as he undid most of my intended edit. Still, how do you justify Dan56's reversion of my sourced addition of the review score? Harmelodix (talk) 17:24, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Abusive user

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The following IP address 89.205.38.27, has been writing abusive edit summaries to me and others (in the past) [[69]] a quick look down this will show it. (Sorry if this is the wrong way to do this.) Lukejordan02 (talk) 00:01, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for edit-warring and abusive edit summaries, not to mention removal of this report. Acroterion (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you and sorry if I filled this in wrong, it's my first time. Lukejordan02 (talk) 00:10, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Given the combination of nasty edit summaries and edit-warring, this was probably the best place to mention it. Acroterion (talk) 00:16, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Juzumaru continuing personal attacks and disruptive editing

Juzumaru (talk · contribs) is a SPA whose every single edit has been to remove references to South Korea from articles on Japan, or to push an anti-Korean POV. He almost never cites sources. Most of his edits have simply removed text, but when he writes his own text the English is laughable at best and barely intelligible at worst. On at least one occasion he has used translation software to post almost completely incomprehensibly on talk pages.[70] When I called him out on his disruptive edits to the Yamanoue no Okura article, in which he flagrantly rejected the overwhelming consensus of Japanese scholarship, he engaged me in a months-long dispute (see Talk:Yamanoue no Okura/Archive 1 for a small taste) in which he was told by several users including User:Ross Hill[71] that since his English is so poor he should probably be editing Japanese Wikipedia instead. His immediate response was to go to Japanese Wikipedia and essentially say "Come at me bro. Discuss English Wikipedia problems with me here in Japanese." When I rejected that ridiculous request, he came right back here to continue his previous behaviour.

Now he's reemerged after more than a month of inactivity, and posted a personal attack against me in Japanese ("I actually check reliable sources while you just post what you saw on YouTube ... while I actually have a life, you seem to devote all your time during Christmas and New Year to Wikipedia"), and again requested that I refrain from reverting him on English Wikipedia if I am unwilling to discuss with him on Japanese Wikipedia. (His "reliable sources" are fringe books and/or old works that don't actually contradict me, while "what you saw on YouTube" is a reference to a scholarly lecture on Japanese literature uploaded on Stanford University's official channel.)

Since he is WP:NOTHERE and has never actually contributed anything to Wikipedia I'm beginning to think the only reasonable solution would be a block. I outright refuse to use Japanese Wikipedia to discuss problems on English Wikipedia, and while I'm capable of using Japanese to discuss with him on talk pages here, he simply refuses to listen even when I do. After 6 months I've had enough of it.

126.0.96.220 (talk) 03:11, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

And so no one thinks this is just a content dispute on the Okura article flaring up again, User:Sturmgewehr88 and User:Shii can back me up that that dispute was resolved months ago and there is literally no chance of JZ getting his way on that page. The problem is WP:NOTHERE, personal attacks, baiting and inability to communicate in English. 126.0.96.220 (talk) 03:49, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Just giving what I think, so sorry if I have any bias: This issue should not need to involve multiple Wikipedia's for the incident. Also, it does not look good on Juzumaru's part to have said "But Juzumaru not interested in Hijiri." in the below section. This makes it appear that Juzumaru does not want to try to cooperate. On the other side, the user editing as 126.0.96.220 should not have acted a bit insulting towards Juzumaru in the below section, although that is not so important here. Dustin (talk) 16:10, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Off-topic content dispute.

Juzumaru's Talk Hijiri insisted that well-known Japanese poet Yamanoue-Okura was a Korean (Hijiri's source was Youtube). I pointed out his mistake using Journal of Aoki Kazuo and Saeki Arikiyo. ((My source "Research of Shinsen-Shojiroku"（新撰姓氏録の基礎的研究）was awarded the Japan Academy Prize (academics) in 1984. [72].) He has insulted me in Japanese. Because Hijiri can not understand the class system of ancient Japan(Kabane system), this controversy has been dismissed Hijiri's claim. By This incident of about 7 months ago, Hijiri came to demand my death penalty many times. (For me, this incident is past.) I graduated from University in March of this year. And greatly reduced my Wikipedia edits[73]. However, Hijiri will not end this war until he makes me death penalty.... --Juzumaru (talk) 11:51, 22 June 2014 (UTC) No. The scholarly consensus is that Okura was originally an immigrant from the kingdom of Baekje (not, as Juzumaru has consistently accused me of claiming "South Korea"). I cited literally dozens of sources over the two-month dispute, almost all written by specialists in the field. But the worst part about this is that the dispute was literally solved months ago, and Juzumaru has ginned it back up in the last two days just to spite me. @User:Sturmgewehr88, User:Shii & User:Cuchullain (the other users who commented in the debate): Can you set this person straight? 126.0.96.220 (talk) 12:13, 22 June 2014 (UTC) This war is also initiated by Hijiri 88. Juzumaruさん、どうか私の活動をじっと見ているのをご遠慮ください。続けていたらまたANIになりますよ。あなたもDwyさんと同じように仲間がいなくて、ウィキペディアのコミュニティにあなたの活動を公開したらきっとブロックになってしまいますよ。[74] I appreciated him and ignored the personal remarks by him. すいません。私は実生活の仲間との交流が忙しくて、あなたのことは忘れていました。とりあえず、お疲れ様。[75] And I explained that I could hardly participate in Wikipedia for the Busyness. And I broke off this conversation. とりあえず、しばらくは実生活が忙しいので、よきにはからっておいてください。 [76] However, he kept abusing me in Japanese afterwards. Therefore, I answered in Japanese Wikipedia. Hijiri deleted my remark and appealed to a admin-board.[77] Hijiri made the same act Juzumaru in Japanese edition Wikipedia. Currently, Hijiri is rated extremely malicious users in Japanese edition Wikipedia.[[78]]. In the end, Hijiri can use Juzumaru's talkpage of Japanese version Wikipedia.[79] If Hijiri observes the rule, the Japanese manager will do appropriate measures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juzumaru (talk • contribs) 10:47, 22 June 2014 (UTC) See? The above nonsense comment is exactly what has been annoying me since December. The latter part of his comment is a reference to how over the last couple of days he (and one other good-faith user who doesn't know the background of the dispute, and apparently has even less English than Juzumaru) has been harassing me on ja.wiki. 126.0.96.220 (talk) 11:49, 22 June 2014 (UTC) Hijiri, I am sorry that I hurt your pride a half year ago. Your claim "Japan a famous poet Yamanoue-Okura is Korean" was an inadequate article. Once again, please read carefully my report.[80] There written contradiction of your argument.（It is cited from the journal's authoritative history scholars.) --Juzumaru (talk) 12:19, 22 June 2014 (UTC) JZ, just shut the hell up. I NEVER claimed "Japan a famous poet Yamanoue-Okura is Korean" or whatever other Korean-nationalist bullshit you want to accuse me of. You are, and always have been, WRONG, as every other good-faith user involved in the dispute observed. That is why this problem was solve 4 months ago, and now we are here to discuss your behaviour in the intervening time. STOP bringing up old content disputes on ANI. 126.0.96.220 (talk) 12:41, 22 June 2014 (UTC) Hijiri. Please do not excited. About Japanese history, you were not able to argue against me at all. and in order to make the death penalty Juzumaru, every war was started by Hijiri. You can write both Japanese[81] and English [82]. But Juzumaru not interested in Hijiri. And the Juzumaru are busy. The reply is delayed --Juzumaru (talk) 13:18, 22 June 2014 (UTC) It seems English isn't working so I'm gonna post this in Japanese. Basically this thread is not about the content of the Okura article. Furthermore, discussion of article content is generally frowned upon on ANI. The content dispute in question was resolved 4 months ago with the input of a large number of users. If you have a problem with the consensus decision, please go to the article talk page and ask User:Shii and User:Sturmgewehr88 about changing the prior consensus. This discussion of article content is inappropriate for ANI, so I'm collapsing it. Please do not revert me. 英語で伝わっていないようなのでこれだけ日本語で書かせていただきます。このスレッドは、憶良の記事と関係がありません。それにANIで記事の内容について論争するのは基本的に許されません。記事の内容に関しては、もう４ヶ月前にたくさんの利用者からのインプットで解決ができました。その解決方法に問題がありましたら、User:ShiiやUser:Sturmgewehr88の意見を記事のノートページで求めてください。この、ANIには不適切な話はcollapseさせていただきます。取り消さないでください。 126.0.96.220 (talk) 15:23, 22 June 2014 (UTC) User:Juzumaru, Hijiri does not have to discuss English Wikipedia on your Japanese Wikipedia talk page. And Hijiri is not trying to "death penalty" you, and that is a very inappropriate thing to accuse someone of. The discussion on Yamanoue no Okura ended a long time ago, so please stop trying to change it unless you have concrete, reliable, and NPOV sources. The fact that you've repeatedly acted on explicit anti-Korean bias even after being warned merits some kind of sanction. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 22:43, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:VERIFY

126.0.96.220, It would be helpful if you and Juzumaru could contrast the claims you've made and the WP:RS you've used. Please state claims as concisely as possible and provide links to sources. Otherwise, it will be difficult to adjudicate this dispute on any basis other than behavior, regardless of whether it was provoked by passive-aggressive WP:PUSH tactics.--Atlantictire (talk) 16:28, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

126.0.96.220 claim 1:

• sources

Juzumaru counterclaim 1:

• sources

126.0.96.220 claim 2:

• sources

Juzumaru counterclaim 2:

• sources

126.0.96.220 claim 3:

• sources

Juzumaru counterclaim 3:

• sources

See, that's exactly why I didn't want Juzumaru to bring up the content dispute. I presented numerous independent, reliable sources that supported my position (the first being a lecture given by Ian Hideo Levy at Stanford University). Juzumaru presented some other sources he found on a Google search that didn't support my position, but didn't contradict it either. There was a massive back and forth (hindered by a general lack of outside input). Eventually, User:Sturmgewehr88 and User:Shii came in and the dispute was resolved.

But ANI is not the place to discuss content disputes. Especially not when the content disputes are already resolved.

Now, the problem is that Juzumaru, who has never made a single worthwhile edit to Wikipedia, is WP:NOTHERE, and has resorted to making personal attacks against me. I'm just plain sick of it, and I don't see why I should put up with it.

126.0.96.220 (talk) 22:59, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Anyone out there? As someone else commented in the closed-off block, Juzumaru should be warned not to take en.wp disputes to ja.wp. That is forum shopping. Shii (tock) 00:18, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Juzumaru should be aware about the rules of ANI, and he should not bring content here. @126.0.96.220: I would like to see the diffs/edits that can be considered as "Anti Korean POV". Forum shopping is evident, like Shii pointed. I would just say that Juzumaru shouldn't be blocked or banned for these offenses, but he should stop targeting specific user for almost no reason. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 02:56, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

As I said above, literally every single one of his edits from August 2012 to March 2014 has been in the service of an "anti-Korean" agenda. I use scare-quotes because in reality sometimes his edits are arguably pro-Korean POV. Either way, he clearly thinks he is fighting against a conspiracy by Korean nationalists. Here is a small taste. More (earlier) examples can be found in my old sandbox.

Evidence of Juzumaru being a POV-pushing SPA.

"The leaders of the army Hideyoshi's Japan fought in the 1590s were all Chinese, not Korean."[83][84][85][86][87][88]JZ may or may not be wrong here. I don't frankly care. His Korean nationalist opponents can be just as annoying, but they tend to be easier to argue with. "Koreans didn't win. Koreans lost. And the Korean navy failed. Cause Korea is a nation of losers. I may or may not be right. You can't tell, because I'm not going to cite any secondary sources."[89][90][91][92][93] "Korean tradition dating the foundation of Korea to this period doesn't matter. If it's Korean, we shouldn't list legends, even if they are clearly marked as such."[94][95][96][97]Again, I haven't reverted him here because I actually sort-of agree with him (his Korean counterparts got their math wrong, as the edit in question belongs here instead), but his reasoning is fundamentally flawed, and the POV agenda is obvious. "Koreans invaded Japan. And we must avoid using Korean names for treaties, places, etc. etc.. Cause Tsushima is not Korean. And Koreans are still losers."[98][99][100][101][102][103][104][105][106][107][108][109][110][111][112][113][114][115]He's actually right on the substance here, as far as I'm concerned. But is anyone else noticing a pattern? "Korea isn't a prosperous and affluent country. The facts are the facts. No need to state the reasons these facts came about."[116] "Koreans didn't introduce Buddhism to Japan. One Korean introduced Buddhism to Japan. Sometimes one Korean person might just happen to do something important. But Koreans in general can't do anything."[117]Also, notice that the source he cites is in English, not Japanese. This means that even if he read the source -- something that's highly doubtful -- he probably wouldn't understand if the source actually supported his claim or not. "People who think Okura's father was an immigrant from the Korean Peninsula are all Korean nationalists promoting a malicious Korean agenda. Even if they don't give a damn about Korea and are just trying to summarize what modern Japanese literary scholarship has to say."[118]Sorry. But that's literally all he had to say in that entire discussion. And he's still doing it here. Umm ... okay ... you couldn't pay me to wade through his 100+ edits to Japanese invasions of Korea (1592–98). Most of them appear to be edit-warring with equally disruptive pro-Korean POV-pushers. But his most recent string of edits look a little like "Detailed prose narratives about the deaths of the leaders of the war don't belong in this article. At least not as long as those leaders are Korean."[119]

And that's just the articles he directly edited during his last 50 edits. Most of his recent edits have actually just been attacks against me. And he has branched out slightly since I told him to, so that now I can no longer count his non-Korean edits on a single hand. I need to use both hands now. As long as I only have three fingers on each hand.[120][121][122][123] Seriously. Even with an obvious trend of trying to cut back on the anti-Korean POV, a total of four of his last twenty-one edits have been something other that Korea-related edit-warring.

126.0.96.220 (talk) 12:43, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the diffs, I hope Juzumaru knows about WP:RGW and WP:NOTGOSSIP. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 14:01, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Edit-warring editor cursing at me

User:Winkelvi, in his very first comments to me, has began cursing at me and otherwise making accusations and uncivil comments: He says here: "As far as removing comments from MY talk page, I remove stuff as I see fit and it has nothing to do with what you are implying (as if it's any of your fucking business). And if you keep this bullshit up on my talk page, I'll remove your comments as well."

As I subsequently pointed out, he is edit-warring on pages including Josh Dallas. And he's removing another editor's talk-page comments at Talk:Josh Dallas, Talk:Ginnifer Goodwin and elsewhere. This combination of behaviors is troubling and aggressive --Tenebrae (talk) 16:45, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

And he's continued to curse at me in an edit summary here, telling me to "fuck off".--Tenebrae (talk) 16:47, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

And he removed the ANI notice that we're required to give, and cursed at me a third time here. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:53, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Yep, I used profanity. Several times. Big fucking deal. It's not against policy to do so and it's certainly not uncivil when it's warranted. Tenabrae has been nothing but a dick since I first communicated with him at his talk page regarding reversions he made [124]. Rather than answer me there, he came to my talk page using intimidation and threats [125],[126]. Both unwarranted, all of it uncivil and lacking in good faith. He then proceeded to engage in more dickery and what I see as harassment by copying and pasting the comments he left at my talk page on the talk pages of three articles ([127], [128], [129]. Yes, I removed those out-of-place comments from said talk pages as they weren't germane to any article talk page discussion and only carried the lack of good faith he was already demonstrating into any discussion to be had there.

As far as the edits to the three BLPs he's referencing, all three of them are including the names of non-notable minor children of celebrities. As I stated at Tenebrae's talk page in my first communication with him (and now at the article talk pages): While not a specific policy, it's always been understood (by me and several long-time editors I've come across) that the names and identifying information of non-notable minor children are to be left out of articles for reasons of privacy. Nonetheless, the following (found at WP:BLPNAME) is policy: "The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. The names of any immediate, ex, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject. However, names of family members who are not also notable public figures must be removed from an article if they are not properly sourced." is clear. The name of a non-notable minor child that doesn't enhance a reader's understanding of the article subject. It should be left out on this premise alone. While some might argue that the names of celebrity children are announced publicly all the time, therefore, their names should be included in Wikipedia articles, this is true and not true. Kanye West and Kim Kardashian's child, North, falls into this category. We are all aware of how over publicized the couple is. The same would be true with Michael Jackson's children when they were born and growing up. Siri Cruise's name would also apply here. These children, however, attained notability because of the amount of publicity their parents/families allowed prior to and after their births as well as during their growing up years. The children of Ginnifer Goodwin/Josh Dallas and Kelly Clarkson do not fall into this category. Their minor children remain non-notable. When they become notable (whether as minor children or as adults upon reaching age 18), then it would be appropriate to name them in the articles on their parents. At this point in time, knowing the names of these children do not enhance the article nor does it assist in the reader's complete understanding of the article subject. That is how the policy reads. I maintain that leaving these names out of the respective articles is the correct action in accordance with policy.

Tenebrae is clearly pissed that his edits have not been taken on their face and I've challenged him on them. I tried to resolve this on his talk page, he took it several unproductive steps further with his WP:DICK and WP:POKE behavior at the article talk pages as well as my talk page. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 16:59, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I've indicated, in my posts at his page and on discussions I began on the article pages, the four-point reasons why the widely disseminated names are biographically significant. The notion that Wikipedia is forbidden to say that Kim Kardashian and Kanye West have a daughter named North when virtually every popular publication in the world has reported their announcement of this is absurd.

But that's a separate issue entirely from his behavior. And I don't think I could make the case that he's being uncivil, insulting and aggressive in defense of his edit-warring than he does himself in his own post above. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:26, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

And given that Jay Leno proposed that name to Kim months before her child was born, might add some notability to it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:52, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

However, he continued to remove my posts from the article talk pages [130] so as to create a one-sided argument. Removing another editor's comments so that only your own comments appear on a talk-page discussion is completely beyond the pale. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:31, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

And incidentally, "I don't like his attitude so it's OK to curse him and there's no policy against it" is a remarkable argument in favor of incivility, and also demonstrates that his understanding of Wikipedia policy is flawed. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:52, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

The issue is edit-warring. Don't worry about someone cursing at you. It does no harm to you, while making its source appear to be a low-life. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:49, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Winkelvi - It is easy to overlook the occassional "fuck off", but I think you've done more than enough here. Furthermore, calling someone a dick pushed what was simple and unnecessary profanity into WP:NPA territory. Stop it.

Tenebrae, you probably don't need to tell someone that they removed something from their own talk page, they already know it. More importantly, the comments that he reverted off article talk pages ([131], [132] and [133]) were comments you really didn't need to put there. You had already placed that on his talk page here [134], but you put them on the article pages AFTER he revert them off his talk page [135], which means you had to know that he already had seen them. Copying them over to three article talk pages is soapboxing, pushing WP:POINT and frankly explains why he told you to fuck off and called you a dick. You instigated the very thing you are complaining about. Civility isn't about avoiding the word "fuck", it is about treating others with respect, and frankly, your incivility is just as bad as his reaction to it. Passive-aggressive incivility is no less offensive than calling someone a dick. You also need to stop it.

All that said, I'm not inclined to take action, but if I were, both would get blocked. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:12, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. Advice noted. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 20:49, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

User refusing to notify authors when tagging their articles for speedy

69.181.253.230 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a long history of patrolling new pages - yet as far as I can tell, they have never notified an author of the fact that one of their articles has been nominated for speedy deletion. (Anyone who wants to can feel free to check.) I've left them a number of template messages about it (probably too many, but I was hoping they would get the point), then an actual note about it [136], and finally, about a month ago, a warning that I would feel compelled to bring it up here if they didn't stop [137]. They then stopped altogether for quite a while, but today I was going through the new pages log and ran across a few articles they had tagged (most now deleted). I feel bad bringing this to ANI, since they contribute good work in other areas, but their continued WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude, as well as responses like this (repeated a number of times) shows that they don't have any plan to change. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 17:45, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:CSD, a Wikipedia policy, states, "Users nominating a page for speedy deletion...should notify the page creator and any major contributors." It's puzzling why the user is reticent to do this. Moreover, they were previously asked to notify article creators, and the IP received two suggestions to consider creating an account so that they could use Twinkle, which would have nipped the "notify page creator" issue in the bud. The corresponding conversation is confusing. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:34, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Notification isn't mandatory or the policy would say "must" instead of "should". If this was part of a pattern of other behaviors, you might have a case, but if this is the only problem, I can't see a basis for admin action. It has been debated over the years, but suffice it to say that policy will likely never say "must". As Cyphiodbomb points out, notification is easier with Twinkle, but even Twinkle has the option to not notify the article creator, and in Twinkle preferences you can change the default to NOT notify. But yes, I think it is kind of rude to not notify, there just isn't anything in the admin tool kit I can use to "fix" it. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:27, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Dennis has said it all. As long as notification is not mandatory there's nothing we can do to enforce it. That said, I agree that it is uncooperative to not inform content creators of speedy deletions. De728631 (talk) 22:06, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Dennis is correct, it's not required, so... it's not required. "Should" is not "must", and should not be read as such. If anything I'd say the barrage of template messages to an IP user is a greater sin than their not doing something optional. It's clear that they've read and understood your message, so there's no need to keep at it. As far as I can tell, their tagging is being done in good faith and their accuracy is reasonable. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Nobody really reads the CSD templates. It would be much better for newbies if you could write your own reason why you are speedy-tagging the article, and for A7/A9/A11 particularly, apologise that it was for the encyclopedia's own good and suggest userfying or AfC as an alternative. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:06, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm a longterm supporter of the idea of putting an obligation on those who tag article for deletion to inform the author, OK there are some exception one should make, but the current situation allows for biting newbies by deleting their articles without any dialogue. However that would require a policy change, and I'm loathe to change policy by criticising those who follow it, if you want to change policy file an RFC, don't take people to the drama boards for following a policy that you disagree with. ϢereSpielChequers 13:31, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

While "should" does not mean "shall", it is a stronger term than "may". Some time ago I read an explanation of this as applied to law, specifically in the context of traffic rules. A driver "shall" stop at a red signal, and "should" slow when approaching such signal; that the motorist did not slow before coming to a stop at a red signal does not mean they are, as a matter of law, not responsible for the guy who rear-ended them. In much the same sense, I argue that this should be our approach here; if this IP is not notifying when they "should" be, the IP should be subject to some sanction. Should means something that is normally followed unless there's some rational reason not to follow it (in this case, e.g., the editor is banned). I would go so far as to argue that when we use "shall" or "must" in our guidance documents, we're describing policy; and when we use "should", we're describing a guideline. Of course, it should be confirmed that this language is actually descriptive of the current practice (I really think it is: it's so rare to see someone not notify the author). —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 13:43, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I would go further: while disagreeing with WereSpielChequers - there are perfectly good reasons for not leaving a user message - but consistently failing to do so, even after repeated advice and reminders, constitutes disruptive behaviour. As such the account/IP is susceptible to indef blocking to prevent disruption to the project. They need to either start working with in community norms when CSD tagging, or stop CSD tagging (or of course, demonstrate a good reason to establish new norms). All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC).

I mostly agree with Rich. I wrote this when De72 was the latest replied, abandoned it due to EC and being unsure if it'll be helpful but I'll post it now. While there's no simple admin action that can be taken, the fact that the guideline or policy says should rather than must or similar doesn't mean that the editor can't be sanctioned by the community for disruption. I don't know much about the development of the speedy deletion guidelines but I imagine there are a number of reasons why it's not mandatory. For example there are probably cases when it makes no sense to notify, and similarly if someone does one or two clearly legitimate speedy deletions every 3 years it's likely not worth worrying whether or not they notify the creators.

Remember there are plenty of other cases where the guideline says shall or should or whatever for similar reasons, it doesn't mean a person persistently refusing to do so even when most people feel they should isn't disruptive. (In other cases like here at ANI, the harm that comes from not notifying is accepted to outweigh the time wasted etc from people being force to notify even when it makes little sense so we do specify it 'must' be done.)

In this particular case, beyond the request from the OP which seems to have been removed (which is the IP's right), I see plenty of requests from others. So the OP's already been repeatedly asked. And replies suggestion something has to be spelled out as mandatory in some guideline or policy somewhere before you will follow resonable requests by your fellow wikipedians is rarely a sign of someone who is collobrating with good community spirit.

So you could try an RFC. Heck considering how many requests there has already been, you could even consider a topicban without an RFC if it's really merited. Whether any of that is merited or likely to suceed I can't say so I know to little about the case and history here. (Although the fact there's a template makes me suspect it may be disruptive.) Of course, if the editor involved is reading this hopefully they reconsider and none of it is necessary whatever the case.

I know some people will complain about a lack of clarity but remember that to some extent it's intended to be that way as wikipedia operates per WP:NOTBURO etc. For example, WP:SIG doesn't actually say you must sign. But it does say if you persistently refuse to sign that may be seen as disruptive and even that's fairly new [138] and people got in to trouble for persistently refusing to sign before it was explicit in the policy.

Similarly while the policy does try to outline what's allow and not allowed in signatures and is fairly explicit about a lot of stuff now, there are obviously grey areas or probably even stuff which just isn't mentioned. Yet if someone has a signature which seems disruptive to many with decent explainations of why, wikilawyering over whether it's actually forbidden by policy doesn't generally go well.

And you can come up with plenty of other examples. E.g. while I don't know what the guidelines or policies actually say, I'm pretty sure there's none which say 'you must leave edit summaries'. At most they may say something like WP:SIG i.e. persistent refusal to leave edit summaries even when asked is likely to be seen as disruptive which is definitely how edit summaries are treated.

Ultimately what it comes down to as I hinted earlier is if a lot of people are asking you to do something and willing to give good reasons if you ask, you'd better either do so or have good reasons not to do so. As I also said, arguing that you aren't doing it because it isn't required is normally a bad sign.

Nil Einne (talk) 15:19, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I have never notified any user of any deletion discussion that I have ever initiated. If someone is interested enough in an article or an image or what have you, well, that is why we have watch lists. No one owns articles, thus there is no special status bestowed upon creators or primary contributors. Tarc (talk) 16:03, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I generally do notify users, but I could see it as absolutely pointless if there's no chance the article is going to be improved (except in cases of db-vand, in which case the user needs to be warned). Not all new users understand what a watchlist is or how to use it. I could cite WP:CIR for that (and agree with it in many cases), but I could also cite WP:BITE in turn. I've also found that when there's notification, the page author usually goes to the nominator with their questions, complaints, or personal attacks instead of the deleting admin (for better or worse) so there's a workload distribution consideration. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:17, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I was about to say much the same as Ian.thomson about new users and watchlists. Newly created articles, in particular, can sometimes be improved or userfied rather than deleted. Not many editors will have a new article on their watchlists, and if the most interested editor isn't notified, this will only happen if one of the regular Csd and Afd watchers/participants happen to be interested. On the other hand, some articles, particularly promotional ones, have been dropped off by single-purpose editors who haven't edited since, and there may be little point in notifying them. —Anne Delong (talk) 16:54, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• As I've said above, by itself, not notifying isn't strong enough to sanction because policy doesn't demand it. Combined with other actions, it can demonstrate disruptive editing, obviously, but there it would be a symptom of a larger offense. The policy is vague for a reason, to allow us to look at each situation. ie: WP:BURO One of the problems with forcing notification (other than sometimes it makes no sense) is that for IPs to notify, they must do so manually, as TW doesn't work for IPs. In a perfect world, it would be great if everyone notified, but policy isn't likely to change, and I don't see anyone getting blocked for failure to notify if that is their only "crime". In fact, I would oppose a block based solely on not notifying. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:55, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

But the obvious question is why you believe policy has to explicitly require something to allow some sort of community imposed sanction even if the editor refuses to abide by multiple requests from the community. As I pointed out above, there are plenty of cases e.g. signing posts or edit summary where policy doesn't demand people do something all the time, and in the past policy and guidelines didn't even explicitly mention the possibility of sanction, yet it existed nevertheless precisely because of WP:NOTBURO and similar requirements. While additional disruption may make sanction more likely, it's never a requirement if existing action is sufficiently disruptive.

Also, I think most people agree with you that we should be looking at each situation and there may be a reason for the policy to be worded as it is. I admit I haven't looked that closely at the precise situation here. On the other hand, what I have seen suggests that the OP isn't really making any judgement call on whether it's worth notifying, it sounds like they're refusing to notify point blank because it isn't required.

Of course I could easily be wrong, and it would be great if the IP would clarify that I am and if I am I apologise to the IP wholeheartedly. But if I'm not, then I don't see how the situation helps. (The only exception may be if all the IP's cases are ones where notifying was probably pointless and unnecessary even if they didn't actually have any particular reason to think so.)

I should mention that I don't think the slight additional work for notification is particularly relevant. I don't do many deletions but I nearly always notify and don't use Twinkle or any other such tools. The added time it takes to notify compared to the deletion in the first place isn't that much (unlike say notifying when you revert vandalism). Further while it's the IPs right to edit without registering, they also have to accept the limitations and added requirements thereof and can't resonably expect to ignore community norms because of them.

To be clear, I'm not saying we should sanction the IP, or anyone, for persistently refusing to notify. Rather what I am saying is we should be looking at whether such refusal is sufficiently disruptive to warrant action instead of worrying about whether it's required by policy.

BTW as I said above I don't see any reason to talk about a block. The most logical course of action since we only have a problem in one particular area is to topic ban the IP from speedy deletions (or any deletions) if they persistently refuse to notify without a good reason. Of course as with all topic bans, it will need to be enforced by a block if the IP doesn't abide by it, but hopefully it would never come to that.

Nil Einne (talk) 18:37, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

It all boils down to how you read policy, and how important you view notifications. Another admin may feel differently, but I don't ever see me blocking someone for the singular problem of not notifying editors. You can't compare this to refusing to sign posts, which affects ever viewer of that discussion and frankly, isn't done unless it is combined with other intentionally disruptive behavior. Not notifying CSDs is rude, but it isn't strictly against policy, and if a local discussion !votes to block someone for something that is not against policy, I would of course protest as that is against the larger consensus here. You educate, you encourage, you can even bitch and moan, but you don't sanction. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:48, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I've asked the editor to comment here before tagging any more articles for deletion, as I think it's necessary that we hear his or her perspective before resolving this. Personally, I believe that notifying editors whose articles are nominated for deletion is important—with the exception of obviously frivolous, vandalistic, or harassing articles that the creator wouldn't reasonably expect to remain a part of Wikipedia. Editors whose pages are nominated for speedy are likely to be new editors; having an early attempt at article-writing speedied must be demoralizing enough, without the deletion occurring without even a notification or an opportunity to try to improve the article. I ask that the thread not be closed until we've heard from the IP editor, or at least given him or her a chance to respond to my request. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:20, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

This is getting silly. They've already stated that they're not doing it because it isn't required. And they're right, it isn't. If you find that an affront to all that is good in the world, then lobby to get it changed. Demanding an IP (who,again, has broken no rule) come here and re-state their already stated position so you can make them dance for you is getting appallingly close to abuse of power on your part. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 18:45, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Honestly if it's such trouble for people to notify, why can't we have a bot do it? If a speedy sits around for more than 5 minutes with no notification (or deletion), give one. Or find a way to handle it through Echo if feasible. I think Wikipedia should be doing more, not less, to make our processes accessible to the unfamiliar. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 19:11, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring at Ghana

Need some action here.John Carter (talk) 21:23, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• I was going to full protect but Lord Roem blocked one editor, not sure what to make of it yet. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:31, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
• I've let a note on Lord Roem's page. I'm not sure why we had a single block instead of article protection here and I don't want to do much of anything with the article until I understand his reasoning. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:40, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
• Note that this has been to ANI before [139], where I found there was some merit to both sides of the argument. I'm having a problem with this single block. I notice another editor has the same number of reverts now, and either they need to be blocked or Masssly shouldn't have blocked to begin with, as he was a 3RR only. That is a problem, but he has been communicative and using the talk page, more than others, to be honest. Unless there is something I just haven't seen, I'm getting of the opinion that this block was a mistake and should be undone. I can only guess that LR is offline now, as I've tried to reach him two ways and haven't gotten a reply. I'm leaning towards unblocking and protecting the article, as I don't think blocks are the best solution here. As is often the case, a single block only favors one side of the dispute and doesn't solve the problem. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:05, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Dennis Brown. Dennis Brown aren't you an admin? Do you need someone else's permission to protect the page? Why didn't you intervene when the edit war was going on? That user has been terrorizing the page on weeks now. If you wanted to help you would have I don't see why you have to reach out to User:John Carter, by the way I don't get why he is starting another edit war by making that revert. When I commented about a week ago when the editor war began you told me that Wiki wasn't a forum, which is true, my comment was a bit off topic but that editor is a conspiracy theorists. His whole MO is about removing the Akans from the page to magnify his ethnic group. The edits he made was all about that, yet historically it is false and he can't even provided evidence to support his claims. He keeps on removing sources and distorting facts. You are aware of this, yet you are here complaining about Lord Roem reasoning for blocking him? If it's not clear, he got blocked for vandalizing. Wikipedia is not a place for tribal warfare. You seem to be upset that particular user got blocked? I don't understand why as an Administrator you are making it seem like he needs permission to do his job or why you as Administrator you could have intervened along time ago but chose to let it continue. Did you really have to come here to start this? You could have protected the page if you wanted to. 216.165.95.64 (talk) 22:15, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Didn't John Cater say that the page should be projected but you never did it, you seem to be more concerned about the editor getting blocked than the edit war. Is he a friend by any chance? I don't think it's right to play favorites if that is the case216.165.95.64 (talk) 22:19, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• You need to research better. He was blocked for edit warring. To answer your question, do I need permission to act? I need the implied permission of the community, to act in a way that is consistent with previous situations. I had already protected that page for 4 days. There are policies on when to block, when to protect and when to use the admin tools in any way. I'm pretty sure I've acted consistently with community expectations here by acting in a conservative manner, using the least amount of blocks and protection, which is what WP:5P is all about. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:23, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• • Yeah, I was offline. Just read your message (thanks for the note). I blocked Masssly specifically since I gave him a warning and he made his third revert a bit thereafter. I wouldn't be opposed to a full-protection of the article, though I do believe Masssly was edit warring (possibly with a few others on the opposite side of the issue, it's hard to tell). --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 22:26, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
    • The problem is that now we have another editor that has the same number of reverts, and his edit summaries are flatly calling these vandalism. I went to protect the article, but after seeing the one block, it became problematic. This is a problem that has been going on for some time, I've protected before, trying to prevent blocks. In this cass, Mass* has been using the talk page, more than the others, so he has made good faith efforts to discuss the topic. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:32, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
      • I obviously haven't been covering this conflict before today's edit war-- if that's the case, I trust your take on the situation and wouldn't object to an unblock of Mass and a full-protection of the page. Let's hope we can get these guys to chill out. --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 22:36, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
        • • There are a number of users involved, not just a couple. Mass* can be hardheaded, but he did have one point that made sense, the use of the word "Akan" in that article has jumped 50% over the last few months, so my guess is that there is plenty of POV on both sides of the issue, which is why protection is about the only thing that will work, as both sides have the same thing to lose: the ability to edit it. I will probably do just that and give it a long protection. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:39, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
            • Sounds good. Thanks for notifying me in advance. Cheers, Lord Roem ~ (talk) 22:40, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

All his claims were responded to on the talk page216.165.95.64 (talk) Maybe I'm looking at a different talk page but you seem to be advocating for some instead on looking into the situation216.165.95.64 (talk) 22:44, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Also what are these good faith edits? The core of the issue won't change he made claims about the Akans not having a kingdom, not trading gold etc and they were all false. He also replace a lot of Ghana's history with the history of his people. 216.165.95.64 (talk) 22:47, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• Full protected for 8 days (last time was 4), and I will keep an eye on it since I have been for a while. I made it clear that once it expires, the threshold for blocks will get reduced. If I have to protect a third time, I will take it to WP:AN and get the article put under 1RR for a year. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:50, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Would it make sense to post to Wikiproject Africa or similar and ask for some more input on the content dispute? Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:24, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Messages left. John Carter (talk) 18:21, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Excellent idea, thanks to you both. This kettle has been simmering for a while and outside opinion may just give it some new direction. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:31, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Fv1209: battleground and biased editing

After correcting inaccurate information at the Mexico national football team article, the user Fv1209 has not only refused to allow the inaccurate information from being removed or pointed out as needing citation (see diffs [140], [141], [142], [143]), but has retaliated by starting a battleground campaign in articles that I traditionally work in, including one currently under FA review (please see [144], [145], [146]). I have attempted to communicate with the user at Talk:Mexico national football team, but that seems to have only further enraged his behavior. Please help. Regards.--MarshalN20 ^Talk 23:07, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

This editor has ignored my good faith attempts to clarify any of his concerns regarding the Mexican national team. We have provided sources and clarified the wording and yet he has failed in my opinion, to make a good and reasonable case to exclude such information. He has not made the case in my view that warrants removal of material. I believe that a lot of his concerns are somewhat arbitrary and biased against the Mexican national team in an attempt to minimize its successes. I do not believe that MarshalN20 in this case is acting in good faith. Fv1209 (talk) 23:23, 22 June 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fv1209 (talk • contribs) 23:21, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I am active WP:FOOTY editor and author of the FA Peru national football team. I find your accusations of bad faith unfounded and personal attacks.--MarshalN20 ^Talk 23:26, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Fv1209, you have 197 edits, every single one of them related to Mexican football and some Mexican entertainer topics except your tagging of Falkland Islands, which is an FA candidate and pretty far south of your other interests, so yes, it does look rather odd. And in your first comment at ANI, you tell us MarshalN20 is acting in bad faith, when he is providing diffs and you aren't. I also noticed you called his edits "vandalism" here [147] although they don't fit the strict criteria at WP:VANDAL. You are off to a bad start here. If you have a problem with content, you take it to the talk page of the article or WP:DRN if that doesn't work, but I get the feeling you are following his edits in a spiteful attempt to get back at him in the Falklan Islands article. That comes under disruptive editing. For the record, if someone reverts you adding http://www.topendsports.com/ and http://www.worldfootball.net as sources, you need to go to DRN or WP:RSN instead of edit war. I did search those two domains at WP:RSN, they weren't listed. We don't decide content issues here, but at a glance, Marshal looks right on the money and you would do better to listen to him than to edit war with him. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:44, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the response Dennis. I think it's also important to point out that Fv1209 exhibits an editing pattern of systematically changing information in favor of Mexico (see [148] and [149]). It seems to me that this, along with his excessive claims in the Mexico national football team page, is inappropriate behavior that is not simply a content dispute matter. Regards.--MarshalN20 ^Talk 00:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• That is only two examples, so I don't want to jump to conclusions just yet, but I do see how that might be a problem. I'm waiting to hear Fv1209's response to the above. I'm not sure if they need some mentoring, if they can figure it out on their own, or if we need to do something else. I prefer the path of least drama but at the end of the day, we are here to build an encyclopedia and we can't have someone hindering that effort rather than helping with it. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:52, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• I understand Dennis. I'd also like to assume good faith in this case, but find it difficult as more occurrences take place. Now there is this User:B575, with an eerily similar editing pattern to Fv1099 (see [150] and [151]). I also find both of their usernames to be very similar, and their talk page contributions are nearly identical. Per WP:QUACK, it seems this might also be a case of sock puppetry.--MarshalN20 ^Talk 01:32, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• From this user B575 I also find more of the biased editing in Latin American articles ([152] and [153]).--MarshalN20 ^Talk 01:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

To Dennis Brown. I understand your concern. Your advice seems fair and reasonable. It is never my intention to engage in editing wars since I better things to do. I am wary of edits that I believe are not done in good faith. I believe this may be the case but I could be wrong. I got the impression that MarshalN20 was engaging in bad faith editing since I believe he made no attempt to counter my clarifications. I apologize if I was too quick to make judgements. I think consensus should be reached in the discussion page before any material is removed. Fv1209 (talk) 02:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

The material in question is not properly referenced and is inaccurate. This is not something that can be determined by consensus, especially when the consensus you are attempting to form is one based on sock puppetry and canvassing ([154] and [155]).--MarshalN20 ^Talk 02:07, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Comparing User:Fv1209 and User:B575: 22 common pages [156], which is odd for a user with less than 200 edits. Looking how they edit, I see Fv1209 [157] and B575 [158] have similar patterns. Their most commonly edited articles are similar [159] and [160]. They edit Mexican article but their English is comparable, native even. Both are hit and miss with adding summaries. They back each other in discussions like at Talk:Mexico national football team (bottom). The times of day they edit are a bit all over the place, but still match up. I checked for interleaved edits, found none, and with some with start with one editor and stop, then pick up with other account, but never intermingled. In other words, I did the homework, I would agree that this is a sock case. I've indef blocked Fv1209 and 2 week blocked B575. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 02:19, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Dennis. Great detective work and analysis!

Hopefully this will dissuade the editor from further disruption.--MarshalN20 ^Talk 14:04, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

ArdenHathaway personal attacks

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With this edit, User:ArdenHathaway launched a rather nasty personal attack -- on my userpage, not on my talk page. In looking through the archives here, I see that this user has been blocked for this very behavior before. I would ask that this be done again. I tried to reason with this editor but this attack was the response. Thank you. Omnedon (talk) 02:31, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Also edit warring on a featured article. [161], [162], [163]. Judging from past edits, seems to harbor a personal animosity toward the subject. [164] --NeilN ^{talk to me} 02:55, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I blocked for 48 hours before I came across this ANI report, but on review of this editor's extensive history of hair-trigger nastiness toward other editors, it probably should be indefinite. I'll leave the block as is for now: any hint of a repetition will result in an indef. Acroterion (talk) 12:03, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Canvassing, personal attacks, NAFG, etc.

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Ancholm has been edit warring on White privilege the past few days. Today I find that he or she has canvassed to sway discussion of the talk page (see edit on June 22 at Special:Contributions/Ancholm). They further engaged in personal attacks ([165] and [166] most recently). The treat the article as a WP:BATTLEGROUND and ignore Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Requesting admin intervention. Thank you. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:49, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

"I see you edited the note in the lead of White privilege. There's currently a discussion about the wording of the lead on the talk page that I thought you might be interested in joining. Thanks! EvergreenFir (talk) 20:35, 20 May 2014 (UTC)"

"Hi. I noticed you had contributed to the white privilege page. There is currently a discussion on the talk page which you may be able to contribute to. Ancholm (talk) 13:45, 22 June 2014 (UTC)| - Ancholm (talk) 09:04, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Two wrongs do not make a right User:Ancholm. Consider this your formal warning: if you continue to treat collaborating with other editors as a battle, you will be blocked from editing. - User:EvergreenFir, please ensure you're following the same policies you ask others to. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 10:52, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

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User:AfklBez - promotional edits and copyvios

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AfklBez (talk · contribs) is a SPA promoting Air France-KLM-Martinair Cargo, as evident by their user page which I have since tagged for speed deletion. Editor has also been consistently uploading images that qualify as copyright violations (see talk page), and has been repeatedly warned not to after being informed of our upload policies and the risk of being blocked. Block requested. Thanks, ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 08:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

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Someguywhat and Carlton J. Kell High School

Someguywhat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user, who was just blocked a few days ago for disruptive editing, is apparently not willing to listen to any input regarding what we need here at Wikipedia as far as copyright goes. A few days ago, I reverted an addition he made as being unencyclopedic content and being not referenced. He reinstated it, word for word and added a reference. Looking at the reference, his addition is an extremely close paraphrase of the school's webpage. So I reverted it again as a copyvio and left him a twinkle template on it. He again reinstated it. User is not talking at all, just edit warring. The copyvio issue is serious and appears related to his prior block. Leave it to you all to figure out what to do with him. I have removed the copyvio again and will notify him of this discussion. I'm here due to the prior block and the combination of edit warring and copyvio. This seemed to be the best place. John from Idegon (talk) 18:09, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• The diffs being [167], [168], [169], [170], [171]. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 18:17, 23 June 2014 (UTC)