Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Dispute about block warnings and AN/I block request

This is essentially a self-report:

There has been an ongoing discussion on several Wikipedia pages about the way fact that I quickly went to WP:ANI after issuing a final warning on Henia Perlman's talk page, following a pattern of adding content to The Holocaust or a few related articles that were reverted because they were not in a form ready to be posted to the article or it was not cited at all or not properly. The user has mentioned that she is challenged by some of the technical formatting in Wikipedia -- and this has been an ongoing theme, so I am posting this so that this can be sorted out.

As I understand it, the user is concerned that I issued the block report on this incident page very soon after she posted content… and just before she took me up upon my offer to format the citations. As I understand, her issue is that 1) it went very fast and 2) she would have preferred that it went to WP:Mediation, per one of her latest postings on this - item #1. She has said that she feels I should be investigated about:

1. Whether I did anything wrong in the manner in which I notified her about the block and then very quickly posted the ANI after the final edit?
2. Should I have taken this to another venue instead of issuing the request to block at ANI?

User talk:Henia Perlman#The block is a summary (with diffs) of the warnings and activity that resulted in me posting a request to block on June 19th, which is now archived at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive957#Request block of User:Henia Perlman. The ongoing editing issues are discussed throughout Talk:The Holocaust, but the specific edit in question is discussed here and here, regarding the final edits: this edit (08:43, June 19, 2017 ct‎), which I reverted (09:34, June 19, 2017 ct), and this edit (10:51, June 19, 2017‎ ct), which I reverted a few minutes after it was made here (10:53, June 19, 2017 ct).

As a side note, she has not been performing edits since the 31-hour block, and is instead posting proposals for edits on the article talk page.

Thank you!–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:47, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

• I have no idea even what's being requested here, but please, please can we not have this end again with a block of an intelligent, good-faith editor who's having trouble learning her way around? (Later: After looking around a bit more, it does seem like Henia Perlman is preoccupied with vindication in the matter of her prior block, or something, and that never ends well. Our focus here should be on getting her to realize that that it's nothing anyone will care about a month from now, and she should just forget about it.) EEng 01:17, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

EEng#s, I am absolutely not asking for a block, nor any sanction against Henia. I am doing a self-report to see if there's something I did wrong. Is self-report the wrong term? Again, it is to determine:

1. Whether I did anything wrong in the manner in which I notified her about the block and then very quickly posted the ANI after the final edit?
2. Should I have taken this to another venue instead of issuing the request to block at ANI?

It seems that she needs to have that done to move on. Any suggestions to help resolve this are greatly appreciated! I haven't been successful in my attempts to try to move this on - like this. I am stumped. I am lost. I feel bad and I don't know what to do to move this on.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:35, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Pinging a few people from the earlier thread who might be able to give Henia some helpful words: Rivertorch, Seraphim System, Mathglot. EEng 03:44, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I am sympathetic to an editor who is having trouble learning their way around, but that isn't why this block was imposed. There was a very clear proposal under discussion at AN/I regarding a voluntary Article Ban. There has been a lot of good faith extended and assumed, but the discussion at AN/I wasn't ambiguous — the editing at the Holocaust article has been disruptive, and it is not a good article to learn on. I don't think CaroleHenson acted wrongly here. To help Henia, I will say that any discussion at AN/I is serious, and the community worked out a voluntary article ban proposal as an alternative to indefinitely blocking a new editor. We want Henia to have an opportunity to get used to how things work here, but that doesn't mean the discussion isn't serious. If an admin issues you a final warning, and there is an open discussion at AN/I about a voluntary article ban, and you agree to it, and then edit the article you will get blocked. That's how you learn. Asking for justice against our admins (who are much beloved) at AN/I usually doesn't end well, so the sooner we move on from this, the better for Henia. Seraphim System ^(talk) 04:38, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, EEng.

If someone doesn't mind taking a look at the questions, that would be great. I think the issue was that she didn't feel she should be blocked for making edits that were not meant to be unhelpful and that there should be another official remedy other than moving to blocking if the edits were not meant to be disruptive.

Regarding Mediation, my understanding is that is for content disputes - to resolve disputes regarding specific language in an article... which is not the issue here.

This issue seems to fall into the category of conduct disputes - and the page discusses the use of templates (which I did) and WP:ANI. Perhaps, I could have posted a message on the ANI requesting assistance, rather than requesting a block in cases like this. It would truly be helpful to get input about whether there was another approach I could have taken. That was my intention for the posting, because I think answering the questions will help both Henia and me.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:38, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I didn't get an edit conflict and my posting was made on top of Seraphim System's comment... which appears to answer the questions.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:42, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I pretty much bowed out of it after Henia posted a rambling message on my talk page saying that other editors at The Holocaust "see [her] as a threat". I replied to her, offering what I hoped were helpful words. I was pretty frank, though. My advice hadn't seemed to be having a positive effect, and she had appeared to be grasping at straws since her block, distrustful of people (such as CaroleHenson) who had gone out of their way to help her and shopping around in some sort of futile quest for...I don't know what. Vindication? It didn't make sense to me, and I had begun to dread logging in for fear of finding that more drama awaited me. I really don't have anything else to offer, helpful or otherwise. Henia will either move on from her block and make a concerted effort to become a competent Wikipedia editor or she won't. Calling for investigations isn't productive. Does anyone really have time for this?

I'd like to offer a word or two to CaroleHenson, who feels bad but shouldn't. Rarely have I seen such forbearance directed toward a new user whose edits are having a disruptive effect, and CaroleHenson, you were a big part of that. You made a concerted effort to help a newbie, and when that appeared to be failing, you acted with the best interests of the project in mind. You did nothing wrong, and there's no need to second-guess yourself. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 04:45, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Heartfelt agreement with that word or two. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:36, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but how do you feel about all those other words? EEng 20:55, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I was the admin who gave the 31 hour block originally to Henia regarding their editing on The Holocaust, after multiple editors, admins and non-admins, advised her to stop. I feel like a lot of editors have gone out of their way to try to help Henia, some offering mentoring which they seems to take up, but have fault with at the same time. Henia's last rather lengthy post on my talk page here: [1] brings up a number of these same concerns that CaroleHenson mentioned. Henia is an editor that I also feel will be a great help in the future with their knowledge and information, and hopefully the people they have working with them helps out. Carole, you've had the patience of a saint in helping her, and I don't see that you've done anything remotely wrong. RickinBaltimore (talk) 11:57, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks everyone that contributed to this issue. As I understand it, I followed the processes correctly, which means that in addition to discussion on talk pages, I properly used templates to warn about the issue on her talk page, and followed the block policy correctly. As I summarized (and no one disagreed), Mediation is for content disputes and this was a conduct dispute, so mediation is not the proper venue for these kinds of issues. To this point, I have not heard of alternative strategies.

As an FYI, I am not an administrator, but I am a seasoned editor and NewPages reviewer.

I totally agree with EEng that it's nothing anyone will care about a month from now and RickinBaltimore that Henia is an editor that I also feel will be a great help in the future with their knowledge and information, and hopefully the people they have working with them helps out. (Her latest mentor added a post several days ago to Henia on their talk page.) There are many other nice and encouraging comments that have been made and I am happy to summarize them on Henia's talk page.

EEng#s, Is this sufficient input? Is there anything else that is needed to resolve this issue?–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:27, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not an admin either, but because of my nobly gracious bearing I'm often mistaken for one. You showed great patience in an extremely frustrating situation. While it's always possible to say, "Well, you could have done this or that as well, before going to ANI", you did nothing wrong. EEng 20:55, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Henia input and further conversation

Henia Perlman posted the following at RickinBaltimore's page:

"Prior to imposing a block, administrators are expected to be fully familiar with the circumstances of the situation." You wrote: "My reason for the block was that Henia was continuing to make the same edits that they were repeatedly told by multiple editors (including an admin) not to make."

Please, specify

1) "the same edits",

2) the name of the admin who repeatedly told me not to do the same edit,

3)why was I guilty of socking.

Thank You.

Cordially. Henia Perlman (talk) 14:38, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

So, I posted it here for continuity of discussion - and hopefully to resolve this once and for all.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:01, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Henia Perlman:

1) "The same edits" means that you continued to add content that was not ready for the article and was not properly cited. See the warnings on your talk page, for instance.

2) Ealdgyth is an admin

3) Socking refers to WP:Sockpuppetry, which was discussed at User_talk:RickinBaltimore#Rachelle/Henia..... You used two different accounts, the Rachelle Perlman account and the Henia Perlman account after you were blocked. We've been all through that - you explained it had something to do with a computer issue - and now that you're using just one account, we're good on that count as long as you just use one account.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

I am asking RickinBaltimore to answer my questions.

Because of my physical disabilities, I cannot interact with everybody.

Thank you.

Cordially. Henia Perlman (talk) 19:11, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

• Henia, I want to apologize for a delay in getting back to you. Weekends are a very slow time for me on Wikipedia, as I'm busy with family stuff, and it's hard for me to jump on frequently. Carole did however summarize exactly what I was going to respond with. The block was originally for your conduct with disregarding editors asking you to use sourcing, and this was after multiple warnings and requests to not do so. As Carole stated, Ealdgyth is an admin, and they explicitly told you that you needed to work with the community on this issue. As for the multiple accounts, I was perfectly OK with your explanation on what happened, and I know you're just using this account now. I'm not going to be monitoring this or my talk page much today or tomorrow, since I'll be busy, but anyone here can assist you. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:57, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Good morning Ricki and all,

It is very hard for me to keep up with daily/hourly comments in this site, or any other.

I understand the solidarity behind Carole, a very experienced editor.

I would like to focus only on the 2 incidents that directly caused the block.

It seems to me that I was specifically and immediately blocked, because

1. I didn't provide sources for Shanghai's statement, and continue to post this statement;

2. Carole mentioned Ealdgyth, an admin, in her request to block me, because Ealdgyth objected to posting, after Shangah.

RickinBaltimore, is it correct?

Thank you,

Cordially.

Henia Perlman (talk) 15:22, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

The reason for the block was due to the repeated posting of information that was not properly sourced, and despite a number of editors asking you to please refrain from posting it until you had the discussion on the information you were posting. This was not immediate, as the issue appears to have been on going for a few weeks prior to my issuing the block on June 22nd. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:24, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Henia Perlman,

1) You are not listening or understanding - and I don't know why you need for Rick to restate, once again, what the issue is. (See his initial comment here.) The reason why you have been blocked has been stated over and over again - endlessly - including in this incident and User talk:Henia Perlman#The block. I don't know how many times you need to be told this before it's understood. See WP:NOTGETTINGIT.

The incident that directly caused your block was when you went ahead and made changes to The Holocaust rather than finishing the discussions about the two ways to prevent the block on this AN/I forum.

2) It is insulting to the people that work this page and the process to say, I understand the solidarity behind Carole, a very experienced editor. You can make yourself a victim, or you can be someone who learns from your experiences.

Your inability to get that you might have done something wrong... and that it was a part of a pattern, not just the Shanghai edits raises concerns about your ability to capture key concepts here at Wikipedia.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:03, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Carole, thank you for your thoughtful answer.

Can you please take out of from your archive the discussions we had about the Shanghai posts, and repost them in your talk page, as I would like to better understand what happened there?

"The incident that directly caused your block was when you went ahead and made changes to The Holocaust rather than finishing the discussions about the two ways to prevent the block on this AN/I forum."

Well Carole, I thought I would have a reasonable time to think about the 2 proposal and the block. I was not informed of a deadline, and I was waiting for one.

I see no harm in me being a slow reader, because of my physical disabilities.

I can go forward after I read again the posting about the Shanghai postings, now in your archive, and going over every disruptive post, that you took the time to mention.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments, and your cooperation to help me better understand.

Cordially.

Henia Perlman (talk) 22:10, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Henia Perlman, All the posts that you made to my talk page are at User talk:CaroleHenson/Archive 12 and User talk:CaroleHenson/Archive 13, but I don't see that the Shanghai edits were specifically discussed there.

All the information specific to the block is at User talk:Henia Perlman#The block, including the two sections of Talk:The Holocaust that discussed your final edits. There were also the final and "only" warnings posted to your talk page.

There was never an issue about you taking more time to review the proposals - and you never asked for time to consider the proposals. This had nothing to do with timing. You were blocked for additional improper edits. See [2].

I am done with this issue, Henia. If you continue to talk about how I improperly blocked you, I will refer to the summary on your talk page and this ANI discussion. Other than that, I am done and see no use in my continuing to repeat myself with ZERO impact.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:04, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Folks, I hate to be ants at a picnic – especially since when issues with this user first popped up, everyone agreed that, aside from some problems, she was a good faith editor with a lot to offer Wikipedia – but when I looked through Henia Perlman's talk page commentary at that time, I got the distinct impression that this could be pretty sophisticated trolling, as opposed to a newbie user lost in the maze of Wikipedia. I would ask that someone who hasn't looked into this before take a closer look with that in mind, because I'm far from convinced that the editor is what she claims to be. But then, I may just be overly suspicious. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:34, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps, I can see how you might think that. Or, a case of WP:NOTGETTINGIT / WP:CIR.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Carole, to your two questions at the outset above: (I am responding as an involved non-admin)

1. No, nothing wrong in the manner which you notified HP of the block.
2. No. What other venue has juridiction and actionability to block someone, if not ANI? Bringing an issue here is not equivalent to issuing a block; you merely raised the question. You could have been unanimously shouted down by a tsunami of admins, had that been appropriate, but instead a block was issued. This was the right venue. (As a postscript, Henia's edit pattern was such that a 31-hour block wasn't even sure to get noticed, and as I recall, she later said it had expired before she realized it had been in effect.)

Just a few observations in order to try to bring anyone encountering this for the first time up to speed quickly. I have offered suggestions to Henia in the past which I hope were helpful, as numerous other editors have. At the same time I tried to offer some some non-sugar coated reality-checks that I realized might sound harsh to her but which I thought would be beneficial in helping her avoid an impending block which I saw coming clear as day, by contrasting her expertise in one area (Holocaust studies) with her neophyte status in another (Wikipedia). I tried to explain how others might see her activities at WP as being disruptive in a way that she might not understand and could easily interpret as ganging up on her or bullying, although that was certainly not the case. Far from being the latter, Henia is in my experience the editor who has received the most forbearance and largest number of offers of help of any editor that I have seen. Imho her responses have been sporadic and unpredictable, ranging from obsequious gratitude to dark innuendo of conspiracy (both of which I've been on the receiving end of), with a dash of mentor-[s]hopping without a clear rudder being established anywhere, nor even an anchor, so she ends up blown about by the winds or whatever the last breeze some editor or admin blew her way. My working theory up till now has been that she is what she appears to be, a Holocaust expert, with some issues of being frazzled by technology and computers, not to mention Wikipedia's set of policies and guidelines which takes a while to negotiate, and perhaps also her age (by her own say-so) and perhaps also by other personal issues that generally make things even harder for her. I have to admit not having considered Beyond My Ken's theory up till now, and reading it gave me a jolt, and now I can't "unthink" it, and don't know what to think now. I still believe it's probably CIR and a steep learning curve, but in the end as one frustrated editor remarked after giving up trying to help, (paraphrasing from memory): "In the end, it doesn't matter what the reason for the problem is."

I think Carole raised the issue here at ANI pointing at herself out of an abundance of caution in an attempt to be more than fair to an editor who had discussed raising "investigations" (here and here) into Carole's activities and those of other editors interacting with her (how I escaped that list I'll never know) and who may be too new here and thus unfamiliar with the rules and conventions at ANI to raise an issue herself. Having said that, if Henia is serious about having various editors investigated, it is for her to say whether Carole's formulation of the issue represents her concerns, whether she (Henia) wishes to continue on with this statement of it or take it up some other way. As far as I'm concerned, given Carole's statement of the issue at top of section, there's nothing remotely to be reproached here.

(Note: Pinging Ealdgyth who has been mentioned in this thread, but not notified I believe.) Mathglot (talk) 01:40, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional background and weighing-in on the topic. The thing is: the nature of her edits were abundantly clear. 1) She continued to be warned about adding content that was not properly cited (on French and English Wikipedia) and was given offers to help format the citations, and 2) posted content that was not ready or appropriate for the article: a) too much detail for an overview article, b) fringe theories, c) continuing to add content that was discussed as problematic on the article talk page - or continuing to question why it was problematic, and d) adding content that was not ready because it was poorly constructed / edited (and received offers to work on this by others, which she ignored). Based upon previous comments, she seems to think that other editors should be cleaning up her edits. The fact that she cannot see that these are issues means to me that if she hadn't been blocked, she'd still be trying to make problematic edits. In addition, she is not understanding very clear points that have been made to her repeatedly at Talk:The Holocaust. If she doesn't like an answer, she has a habit of asking the question over and over again... on the article talk page or by posting messages on multiple user's talk pages to the point that users that once helped her are now ignoring her.

I have also seen that she does shop for someone to adopt or mentor her... but once someone agrees to help, it seems that their advice or suggestions are completely ignored. She has not responded to comments and suggestions from her most recent mentor, ONUnicorn, on their talk page.

I have been the eternal optimist, thinking that it just needed to be explained differently and she'd get it... but she's not getting it, and doesn't want to get it... whether it's due to trolling or CIR. If it's CIR, I feel really bad for her. If she's trolling, she has been highly effective at being disruptive and must be laughing at us quite a bit. Whatever the cause, though, this has been disruptive, time-consuming, and exhausting and, based upon her endless questioning why she was blocked, even now, I don't see an inkling that she's open to self-reflection.

I don't know how we prove trolling, but since she has stated herself that she has competence issues regarding Wikipedia (most recently here and here) + isn't working with her mentor, can we come up with a solution to resolve this (e.g., topic ban for The Holocaust, warning about needing to actively work with a mentor, warning about WP:LISTENING, other)?–CaroleHenson (talk) 11:13, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi all

I don't want anymore to investigate Carole's actions.

Carole, you made a great impact.

I have been reading all your links, and those by Simon, Mathglot, Ealdgyth and others.

Carole, I am getting it.

And you noticed: I am not editing.

My only goal: I do want to help improving content, like all of us.

Carole, sorry:

I posted all the citations for you to format about Shanghai, in Talk page of Holocaust, and not at your talk user page.

I wanted to provide Ealdgyth the citations.

Mathglot:

I have read very carefully all your thoughtful postings.

I admit: I should have waited before posting about Shanghai, without citations.

"b) fringe theories"

I gave what I believed to be reliable sources to my proposal for new lead:

ushmm, Elie Wiesel, Berenbaus and others.

Holocaust history is very complex, and has been the subject of many controversies.

Historiography of Holocaust has been evolving very fast in the USA, especially in the last five years.

I have been keeping up with that.

It has been very interesting.

"She has not responded to comments and suggestions from her most recent mentor, ONUnicorn, on their talk page."

I have responded.

I don't laugh at anybody.

Mathglot and others: I cannot respond to all your thoughtful postings.

I can read and type only during a certain amount of time.

I am still traveling.

I do understand the frustrations that I have caused.

I apologize for that.

Thank you all.

Cordially.

Henia Perlman (talk) 22:36, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

I continued reading articles in wiki, and those relevant to editors who are experts.

Mathglot, I found out that the lead in 2004 was: The word Holocaust (Greek, "a completely (holos) burnt (kaustos) sacrificial offering") was introduced in the late 20th century to refer to the attempt of Nazi-ruled Germany to exterminate those groups of people it found "undesirable".

I printed the 51 pages of the current Holocaust article, and read them.

I don't have the time and physical endurance to be involved.

Be well.

Cordially.

Henia Perlman (talk) 04:45, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I struck out the request for a warning / other.–CaroleHenson (talk) 11:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Henia, if you're monitoring this, I have a specific question for you regarding Historiography of Holocaust has been evolving very fast in the USA, especially in the last five years. Please see your Talk page. Thank you. Mathglot (talk) 22:45, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Henia's response to "Aspersion"

I. It seems to me that Carole shouldn't have put a request to "block{ed} for additional improper edits" - "final edits" (Shanghai and lead).

1. First final additional improper edit: 14:43, 19 June 2017‎ Henia Perlman. (→‎Other occupied countries: Jews in Shanghai): In Shanghai, there were about 20,000 Jewish refugees from Nazi-occupied Europe… the Japanese government ignored the Nazis, and didn’t murder the Jews, who left Shanghai after 1945.

14:53, 19 June, in the article talk page, I posted: I will also appreciate help in putting template for links (this time I couldn't do it!): In Shanghai, there were about 20,000 Jewish refugees from Nazi-occupied Europe, …14:53, 19 June 2017

15:34, 19 June 2017‎ CaroleHenson ‎(Reverted 1 edit by Henia Perlman (talk): Addition of uncited content.

CaroleHenson (talk) 15:40, 19 June: I reverted the edit where you added uncited content. … I am not posting a request to block you because you have continued to ignore wikipedia guidelines, regardless of the warnings you have received.

Henia Perlman (talk) 16:14, 19 June: So sorry! 1. I pasted the wrong post without citations, and I have to find the correct one, because I have always posted with citation (temperature here was 105!). I am looking in my comuter for the posting on Shanghai with citations, as I have done it in the past. 2. I did ask to discuss with me comments, before reverting my post.

Ealdgyth - Talk 16:37, 19 June: I would have reverted your addition not only for the for the lack of citations, but also the formatting issues and the tone of the addition. We cannot call someone a butcher without a source. Nor is calling someone that encyclopedic tone. Nor do we need a paragraph on the Shanghai situation in an overview article on the entire Holocaust, so it had WP:UNDUE issues.

CaroleHenson (talk) 16:39, 19 June: Would you please post what you want to add here, rather than posting it to the article and I will work on getting it ready? Please.

16:51, 19 June 2017‎ Henia Perlman (talk | contribs)‎ (→‎Shanghai: I added one citation - looking for the others in my computer. Thank you for your patience)

16:53, 19 June 2017‎ CaroleHenson (talk | (Reverted 1 edit by Henia Perlman (talk): Did not address issues raised on talk page by two people.

Henia's comment: After I added a citation, Carole is again reverting me, but now, because of two people and comment of undue weight – so issue of content.

CaroleHenson (talk) 17:00, 19 June 2017 Block's request https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive957#No_further_response_to_the_2_options.2C_went_ahead_and_edited_again: "This user, who says that she has been a teacher for more than 20 years (Carole does not specify that I have taught the Holocaust course in academic setting). … She had been given warnings about not adding unhelpful or uncited content and continues to make edits after a final warning. The last edit was this edit" https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Holocaust&action=historysubmit&type=revision&diff=786463732&oldid=786452371

But, in "this edit", Henia did put one citation : Revision as of 16:51, 19 June 2017 Henia Perlman (talk | contribs) (→‎Shanghai: I added one citation - looking for the others in my computer. Thank you for your patience.

"after receving comments from here": Ealdgyth 16:37, 19 June 2017: I would have reverted your addition not only for the for the lack of citations, but also the formatting issues and the tone of the addition. … Nor do we need a paragraph on the Shanghai situation in an overview article on the entire Holocaust, so it had WP:UNDUE.

So, 23 minutes after Ealdgyth's content comments, 9 minutes after my Shanghai edit with one citation, and 7 minutes after Carole reverted me because of issue of content raised by Ealdgyth, Carole put a request to block me because of Shanghai without quotation.

And, Ealdgyth did later decided that Shanghai does indeed have weight, and added a Shanghai statement with one citation like I did: 18:28, 20 June 2017‎ Ealdgyth (talk | contribs)‎ (→‎Germany's allies: add data and source): Jews in Shanghai were confined, but despite German pressure, they were not killed.[131] So it was ok that Henia added Shanghai with one citation.

"and here: Revision as of 16:39, 19 June 2017 (edituCaroleHenson (talk | contribs)

(→‎Shanghai without citations: I have asked you to work with me regarding making sure that the content is "article ready" due to your history of edits and the fact that you have received so many warnings about your edits. I am trying to keep you from being blocked. Would you please post what you want to add here, rather than posting it to the article and I will work on getting it ready? Please.

At 16:51 Henia added one citation, adding that she will post more.

Henia Perlman (talk) 17:06, 19 June 20. Thank you Carole for your help! I just reposted before I read the two above messages. Here your message for your kind formatting: In Shanghai, there were about 20,000 Jewish refugees from Nazi-occupied Europe, because they could emigrate there without a visa.[1] [2] After the Wannsee conference, Hitler’s Germany sent SS-Colonel Joseph Meisinger, the “Butcher of Warsaw to Shanghai, Norman Goda The Holocaust: Europe, the World, and the Jews, 1918 – 1945 Pearson, 2013 p. 267. But, the Japanese government ignored the Nazis, and didn’t murder the Jews, Yehuda Bauer, Rethinking the Holocaust 89 who left Shanghai after 1945. http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%206019.pdf

2. Shanghai is not undue weight and sources mention it even in overview. Thank you Carole!

CaroleHenson (talk) 17:11, 19 June: Henia, I have been offering to format your citations for quite some time. You pushed ahead after the final warning and the messages here on the talk page. As you likely saw on your talk page, I have submitted a request to block your account.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Holocaust#Shanghai_without_citations)

But, 1) I did post with one citation, like Ealdgyth: "16:51, 19 June 2017‎ Henia Perlman (talk | contribs)‎ (→‎Shanghai: I added one citation - looking for the others in my computer. Thank you for your patience)"; 2) Carole mentions the request five minutes after I provided more citation as promised at 16:51; and 3) Carole reverted me a second time because issue of content, and not issue of citation.

The facts speak for themselves.

I edited the Shanghai statement with one citation, and it was not undue weight.

I can also refute other examples mentioned by Carole.

I strongly suggest that administrators consider putting a deadline for proposals and appeal to block, because some people do not log everyday.

I welcome your comments.

It may take me time to answer.

Thank you for your attention.

Henia Perlman (talk) 15:20, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

References

Admin help please

This posting is ten days old. Henia said that she was dropping the protest of the block in this edit on July 11 and is now essentially restating the issues of the block and my summary of the timing of the final edits (from the initial post) as if that's a reason why she shouldn't have been blocked.

Is there any way we can resolve this? I know that it's a long posting at this point, but it would be nice to be able to close this out.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:05, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

As has been commented many times in the past, there comes a point when extreme issues of incompetence become indistinguishable from deliberate trolling. Numerous editors have expressed the opinion that Henia has a lot to offer Wikipedia, but she has, unfortunately, shown absolutely no ability or willingness to understand how we do things. I'm afraid that the only answer is an indef block, which can be lifted once she exhibits the capacity for editing here without causing continuing problems. Therefore, reluctantly: Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:58, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Proposal

User:Henia Perlman should be indefinitely blocked from editing until she is able to convincingly display her willingness and ability to abide by Wikipedia's processes and procedures and become a net positive to the project.

• Support as proposer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:58, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• I don't believe that WP:CANVASSING has any application cross-Wiki, but I will note that on French Wikipedia Henia Perlman has summarized (incorrectly, I believe) the latest incident and has requested help there with her troubles here. [3]. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:05, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support, and assume that this would apply to her alternative account, User:Rachelle Perlman (See [4], [5]).–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:03, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, the block is intended for the person and not for the specific account. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks for the clarification.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:26, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I displayed my willingness and ability to abide by Wikipedia's processes and procedures.

I didn't edit, as per the proposal.

The matter of investigating Carole Henson about the block is closed.

I just wanted to address the issue of "Aspersions".

What I did in French wiki was a long time ago, and I just wanted to understand matter.

You can archive this issue, as I am dropping any request for investigation.

Thank you.

Cordially.

Henia Perlman (talk) 21:58, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

You said a day or so ago that you were dropping the matter, and you lied about that that turned out not to be the case, because you came back and tried to re-open it. I'm afraid I don't have a lot of faith in your statements. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:28, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Distractive side issue. Adjustment made in comment above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:28, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
@Beyond My Ken: Whoa. Easy there, pardner. Have you ever said you were going to back away from something and then changed your mind? If so, did somebody accuse you of lying about it? ―Mandruss ☎ 00:03, 16 July 2017 (UTC) If you change your mind, then you say "I've changed my mind." If you just come back and pursue the matter, without preamble or explanation, that's a different thing entirely. Henia does a lot of explaining ("I'm traveling", "I'm unwell", etc.), so she certainly knows how to do that, but she didn't in this case, she just hauled anchor and steamed back into the channel after assuring everyone she had no intention of doing so. I don't know about where you come from, but where I am, that's called "lying". Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:08, 16 July 2017 (UTC) I don't care to disclose where I come from, but the climate is moderate, the people are fairly laid back, and we generally call that "oversight". At worst. She might also have different ideas about the proper protocol in that situation. I don't think it's covered in Wikipedia guidelines. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:15, 16 July 2017 (UTC) Where you come from sounds lovely, but, after all, one can be too laid back. Henia's history points towards a kind of passive-aggressive obstinacy, if not outright trolling (I can no longer distinguish them in her case) and a tendency to play on people's sympathy through her description of herself as a frail, sickly, travelling, ex-academic just trying to do the right thing for Holocaust studies, but bewildered by all the folderol connected with editing Wikipedia. Any time anyone tries to pin her down, she falls back on her mantra ("I'm ill", "I'm travelling"), and backs off, to the point that even if everything she says about herself is true she's not well-suited to edit here, especially since she can't seem to pick up the thread of how to do things. There's a lot here that just doesn't quite gel for me, but I've extended just about all the AGF I have at this point, and I'm completely out of sympathy - hence my evaluation of her unexplained about-face. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC) Yep, there is a lot of frustrating, time-consuming, exasperating backstory that involves a number of experienced editors who tried to help her.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC) Don't misunderstand me, I'm not here supporting Henia Perlman in this matter. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other. I only objected to the word "lied" above, and I stand by that objection. And that's about all I have to say about it. (That is, I think that's all. If I decide to say more later, even if I fail to begin with the words, "I changed my mind", please don't accuse me of lying!) ―Mandruss ☎ 01:11, 16 July 2017 (UTC) Gotcha. I see your point. FWIW, I took it as a lie, too.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC) Certainly, we all change our minds. I mean, look at this, where when it was pointed out to me that my !vote in an RfC contradicted an opinion I expressed 7 years ago, I took stock of the matter, had a serious re-think, and came up with a third opinion that was different from the other two - but I made it clear that it was a re-evaluation on my part, I didn't just reverse my stance from a few days before without any explanation. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:49, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support. This makes me very sad, but it looks as if this person is either unwilling or unable to adapt to the collegial, collaborative editing environment of Wikipedia. I feel almost guilty—not for trying to help her but for urging others to be patient with her when our patience has been rewarded by passive-aggressive conduct and continued disruption in one form or another. This has been an enormous distraction to several editors, and it needs to stop now. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 06:04, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment and (Counter-proposal): Just to keep the facts straight, Beyond My Ken's assertion above that Henia "summarized" (incorrectly or not) "the latest incident" is incorrect; the supplied link points to a June 22 edit of hers. Henia's claim that what she "did in French wiki was a long time ago" is correct, at least wrt to BMK's link. That said, I largely agree with the comments of Carole, BMK, Rivertorch (and others in other venues), and I also believe some kind of block is warranted.

I'm not well-versed in matters of block lengths, but can someone explain to me why we go from a 31-hour block, to indef? Seems to me in other discussions about blocking other users for other reasons, there was usually a ramp-up of increasing lengths of blocks, ending in an indef if they didn't come around. But maybe, probably even, I don't understand how this all works exactly. Nevertheless, I'd like to put in my:

• Counter-proposal: Can we try a 1-month or 3-month block, while still allowing Henia access to her Talk page? How exactly would it hurt the project if this was implemented, rather than an indef?

And Henia, if you're monitoring, please don't see this as dividing editors here into two camps of your "friends" and "enemies". Everybody here is just trying to do what's right for the encyclopedia. I'm not your "friend" because of the counter-proposal, and others are not "your enemies" for seeking an indefinite block; they are doing that only for the purposes of protecting the encyclopedia. In my opinion, your best bet now, if you wish to continue to contribute here, is to not argue about anything that happened in the past, nor with anything you disagree with here in this thread. Just let it slide, and listen. If you end up receiving a time-limited block, don't fight it, accept it graciously, and concentrate on showing on your talk page how you will change in the future. If allowed Talk page access, don't say a word about the Holocaust during your block, but think about how you're going to return here without making the same mistakes. Honestly, I just don't know if you're capable of doing that, but I hope so. I still think you could be an asset to the encyclopedia, but all this Sturm und Drang has to stop right now, and you need to show you can take suggestions, even if you don't agree, and act on them. I'm not an admin, and others here are much more experienced than me in these things, so we'll see what happens. But really, above all, stop the argumentation, and just listen, and try to learn. That's my best advice to you at this point.
Mathglot (talk) 07:55, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Mathglot: Yes, blocks do often ramp up, but Henia's initial block was for a specific incident. If there was another specific incident, one would expect the next block to be a ramp-up, but this proposal is not about a specific incident, it's about the entire corpus of Henia's editing here since she started, which seemed to me to be deserving of an indefinite block -- which is not an infinite block, you realize, it can be lifted whenever Henia is able to make a convincing case for that to happen. With the indefinite block, the ball lies in her court to take positive action. With another timed block, she simply waits for it to be over.

We'll see what happens, but my experience is that someone coming in with a counter-proposal simply muddies the waters and very often leads to no sanction at all -- but maybe I'm wrong about that, maybe folks agree with you that a short, timed block is better. I just don't see what it's meant to accomplish. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:08, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I see what you mean, thanks for that explanation. As far as what it is meant to accomplish: a couple of things. If I'm not mistaken, the 31-hour block was completely missed by HP as she didn't even try to log in during that period. So, one intent of a longer block would be a serious wake-up call that can't be ignored. I do realize that indef is not infinite, but other than appealing an indef, what can she do, really? In fact, with an indef, she might be tempted to start appealing immediately, which would just exhaust everybody, I fear. With a 3-month block, and a friendly word to just wait it out and perhaps to reflect on her TP what to do differently this time around, she wouldn't have to resort to appealing right away but could focus on what happens in 3 months, and perhaps addres that on her TP. At that point, if nothing's changed upon her return, well, we know where to go from there. And to be very clear, I'm not arguing for no sanction at all, I think that would be a mistake. It's clear everybody is exhausted, me included, but a three month block will solve that problem for all of us who tried to help her and let us get on with business, no? I hope this answers your question about what it is meant to accomplish. Mathglot (talk) 08:20, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Charlo Greene

I've brought this up here in the past, per this discussion and no action was taken. The question of sockpuppetry was also brought up, but I think this may just be a case of a few people coming to Wikipedia with an agenda.

Long story short, the user AlaskanCannabis has repeatedly tried to add negative information to the article for Charlo Greene, sourcing it to things like a Reddit AMA and an occasional news story. The claims are of things like her stalking and harassing someone (including making rape threats), of her being a scam artist, and the like. It's all extremely weak sourcing and the main thing they've tried to use is a Reddit AMA that has someone posting news articles and making their own claims from said articles. I've tried explaining to them several times that we can't include negative content without a heck of a lot of coverage due to BLP guidelines and it needs to be extremely carefully written at that. It's not that I have any love for Greene, it's just that I don't think that claims of this nature have any place on Wikipedia without a huge amount of coverage to justify inclusion purely because it's the type of stuff that people love to sue over.

Recently they tried adding information about the Reddit AMA to the page with this edit and they posted a comment to my talk page saying that not including this information makes it promotional. I'll be very honest, their sole purpose for being here seems to be to include this information and I've outright warned them now that they are running the risk of getting blocked. Personally, I'd highly endorse a block right here and now - the only reason they don't have one right now is that I'm involved with this and want any block to be on the up and up. I don't think that they have anything to contribute to Wikipedia that won't be negative coverage of Greene. I really don't think that this should close without them being blocked, as they've been warned in the past about this here and a post at BLP/N ended with people agreeing that the content had no reason being on Wikipedia. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 22:00, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

While bearing in mind WP:BITE, their attitude doesn't show that they are willing to take on board the advice of others. Not to mention their singlemindedness with regards to Charlo Green more or less sums up WP:SPA. Anything less than a commitment to mentorship and a 6 month topic ban from Charlo Green should be met with a block. If they're here with an agenda then this would effectively be the same as an indefinite block. If they do intend to be a contributing member of the community, then this should show that intention. Blackmane (talk) 23:04, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

So Rampart is allowed to have a special section to discuss their AMA, but Charlo Greene can't? Everything I have posted has been well documented by the Alaska media, not sure why Tokyogirl79 keeps making up falsehoods in order to help protect Charlo's image. Tokyogirl79 seems to have no interest in making a page for Rocky Burns, or any of the other individuals involved. And now she wants to have me banned because I don't agree with her? How ridiculous. It's obvious your motives are politically motivated based upon the subjects race and/or gender. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlaskanCannabis (talk • contribs) 03:24, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Throwing the "you are politically motivated to attack based off the subject's race/gender" card is not going to go over well here, as it is a personal attack on editors. Please refrain from useless attacks like your last sentence. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 12:13, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• I've answered this at my talk page, but frankly Wikipedia is not a place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and in order to include even small bits of controversy (freaking out at an AMA and changing things to swear words can be seen as controversial) we need to have a lot of coverage that goes into depth and shows that it's notable in the long run. Most times when someone acts erratically like this, that activity isn't considered noteworthy until some time later, when people write about someone's overall life and actions. Sometimes actions in the short run can be notable, but it has to have almost global coverage or it otherwise runs the risk of smacking of WP:TABLOID. I just don't think that you're really here for the right reasons, honestly. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 17:03, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

User:DePiep

Complaint

I have a complaint against User:DePiep of uncivility, and particularly of edit-warring and personal attacks. My apologies for the length, but as DePiep has been a persistent problem I believe full documentation is necessary.

On 1 June DePiep – self-declared as "recently entered the earthquake domain, coming from the physics department (actually: as a formatting fanatic)" (diff) — began opining at Talk:Seismic scale (diff) that the symbol "M", as used in identifying earthquake magnitude scales, should be italicized. (Related comments subsequently made at Template_talk:Infobox_earthquake#Magnitude_notation.)

He has subsequently argued at Talk:Seismic scale#It would be better to use "Richter" instead of "Richter scale" (6 July diff) that "scale" should be removed from various section headers in that article, and even article titles (e.g.: Moment magnitude scale -> Moment magnitude).

I have expressed reservations about some of his ideas, and as I am the only other commentator I would expect that he understands that he does not have consensus. (Especially as "pushing change without consensus" was the very point he complained of regarding someone else on the 4th [diff].)

Nonetheless, on 22 June he "boldly" – which is to say, without discussion or consultation specific to that page – added a formatted "M_L" symbol to Richter magnitude scale (diff). When Dawnseeker2000 reverted (diff), with the edit summary "Please wait until an agreement on formatting is made, DePiep restored his edit (diff) just fifteen minutes later, with the edit summary "??? This is how we write M_L. What is your point?".

Recently (6 July) he began editing the documentation for Template:M (a template I have been preparing for readily formatting and tracking the use of earthquake magnitude scales) by relabeling links to "Richter magnitude scale" to "Richter magnitude" (diff. When I reverted (diff), asking him to discuss if he has an issue, he restored his edit (diff), saying: "I already *did* discuss & source (ISO, SI) this." He certainly did not discuss that change at Template talk:M, where his only contribution to that point (see history) was to assert that using a magnitude symbol without an equal sign (i.e.: "M_w") is a "Major error". (It appears that he considers his remarks at Talk:Seismic scale enough discussion for proceeding.)

He made some additional edits, and when I reverted one, asking him to "Discuss before resuming", he again restored (diff), with the edit summary: "Undid revision 789694974 by J. Johnson (talk) per WP:BOLD and WP:BRD: improvements. Don't just blindly say 'undiscussed so bad' Why do you revert this table cleanup?"

Since the 8th he has been heavily editing Template:M itself (see history), which has caused some breakage. When I reverted his initial edit (diff), with the comment "Please do not break the template simply because you don't like theformat.", he reverted (six minutes later, diff), with the comment: "Undid revision 789694079 by J. Johnson (talk) 1. I did not break anything. 2. the testcases page now is double again. 3. another personal jab in your es (why?)". At which point I felt it was useless to chase after all his edits. I reverted several edits this morning, but he immediately undoes them (see history).

On 9 July DePiep revised the use of Template:M in some 50 earthquake articles, and around 30 lists of earthquakes. While these edits may have indeed been improvements, again it was without discussion. When Dawnseeker2000 (who has been maintaining many of those articles and lists) objected (at Template_talk:M#Major error, (diff)), DePiep's response (diff)was to evade responsibility and blame it on me: "I used the style as provided & documented by this template (created by J. Johnson)." (To forestall DePiep's anticipatable retort: Dawnseeker2000 is not complaining of the formatting produced by the template, but of how you used template.)

All of the above demonstrates demonstrates a lack of respect for other editors, and for established norms of conduct, all constituting an in-grained lack of WP:CIVILITY. Additionally, DePiep has repeatedly insinuated that I have attacked him. E.g.:

• At Talk:Seismic scale#Lede, when I suggested that attempting to "define, measure, and describe" magnitude in the lede was "rather pedantic", he construed it as "A jab that could be perceived as a personal attack even." (diff),

• At Talk:Moment_magnitude_scale#Distracting_editsummary_vs._clear_statements he stated (diff) that an edit summary of mine (diff) "introduces a distraction of the topic even introducing Accusation about personal behavior that lack evidence."

• At Template_talk:M#Major error: "your responses are touching WP:PA, WP:BF, WP:CIVIL trespassing without being helpful or improving." (diff)

I believe a close examination of each of these cases shows that his imputation of a personal attack is baseless.

For all of his incivility and failure to respect other editors, and for his particular disruptions, I ask that user DePiep be banned from making any edits to Template:M, or its documentation, or to any article or list regarding earthquake magnitudes or magnitude scales. Because of his long history of incivility and personal attacks (see block log), I ask that this ban be made permanent. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:41, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Due to commitments in RL, I cannot comment earlier than later today (UTC). -DePiep (talk) 04:57, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

I want to hear from DePiep but this does not look good — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:13, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

ANI can be harsh, and I'm not here to throw anyone under the bus (I've been the subject here a few times). I usually don't have much to say, but let me start by saying that up until this post, I considered DePiep's stance and tone a little unusual. This was the case in an edit summary after I'd reverted a change of his on Richter magnitude scale with the explanation to wait until we have an agreement on formatting. This was soon reverted with the tail end of his summary saying "what is your point?". That's fine I suppose, but I did not challenge or even attempt to communicate about it because it was clear to me from what he chose to say that we were nowhere near on the same page and that it would have been fruitless to press.

I can also say that the work that I've seen J. Johnson do with earthquake prediction and the new template places him in a very small club. Only a few editors that I know of can dive as deep as he has into these topics. Most of what he works on is beyond the scope of my understanding, so I casually observe and rarely comment.

So for my final few words, I'd like to say a few things not about this dispute, but about this project and the people that make it happen. Now keep in mind that I've been the topic here at ANI. Not necessarily for these reasons, but I've been impolite and rude during some clashes with editors during 10 years of editing. I have a mark on my block log. I did not know of DePiep's block history until now, but I think there's something to be said about it. I see it as an indication of something going on under the hood and/or a possible lack of ability to learn from one's mistakes. To be fair, my editing style is one that usually keeps me by myself in some dark corner of WP, because that is something that helps to avoid conflict. Not always of course, but that is a strategy that usually that works for me.

Looking at the most recent item for the 3-month block last summer is the log entry "Trolling other account during ANI discussion about his trolling". We really don't see super egregious block reasons like that all that often. At least I don't. To me, that is over the top, but what bothers me the most about that incident is that DePiep probably offended another user by attempting to pipe their username in a bad light ([[User:keep your trolling to yourself if you don't want to go the same way|Andy Dingley]]). When asked about it, he lied about how it came to be, by saying it was a copy and paste issue. That's nonsense. We've all seen editors get into disputes here and have heated conversations, but lying is a problem that probably shouldn't be overlooked. Looking at the current issue alongside last year's, I'm seeing an editor that should be watched and contemplated. Dawnseeker2000 02:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

re the edits in Richter magnitude scale, a nice example of uncontroversial (BRD) editing. 1, me, 2. your rv 3, my rv. I clearly added (not changed) the Richter symbol (M_L ) to the lede, as other magnitude scales have (Surface wave magnitude, Moment magnitude scale). I claim this is simple article improvement, outside of the formatting discussion, and so not to be pre-discussed but can simply be done by WP:BRD. (The actual format I choose to use is the same JJ had coded before in {{M}} for Richter). OTOH, your es Please wait until an agreement on formatting is made is referring to the open formatting discussion. Sure that issue is to be decided, but that does not mean we can not add or use a symbol (aka label, denotion) meanwhile. Had you edited the symbol into some other format, say "RL" (which very well could be sourced & motivated too), that would have been fine there even while touching the open controversy. Just don't remove the symbol.

re the work that I've seen J. Johnson do with ... the new template places him ...: Yes, I can agree. I actually edited articles to use the template as J. Johnson defined it!

re your restarting of a closed discussion: Please reconsider and remove. -DePiep (talk) 17:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Reply

Takes more time to reply than expected, sorry. I am working on it. -DePiep (talk) 07:28, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• Reply by DePiep.

Allow me to describe this issue from my perspective. I know this reply is very long, but allow me a 'better safe than sorry' in this.

Core topic was and is is the writing of earthquake strengths, think Richter and MMS, in wording, formula and sequence: using symbols, formatting with/without uppercase, italics & subscripting and in wording. Apart from this, broader area is WP:EARTHQUAKE.

Initially, I added talkpage items re the topic on {{infobox earthquake}}, seismic scale and template:M. This way, posts did overlap & cross-reference. My approach was: treat as physical quantity, as described in the authoritative SI-brochure. Later on I added ISO 80000 [6], nicely advised by J. Johnson (JJ), into this recap. My core topic proposals were and are "under discussion", that is: no consensus for change. I did not implement any such proposal.

Innocent edits: I also did edits in the earthquake domain not concerning the "under discussion" topic: [7] use ENGVAR in infobox (not challenged), lede (was rv'ed with a talk), sp, [8], [9] rm page from maintenance category.

Me editing Template:M: I did not change the template's function, intention, or aim. What I did edit were template-technical improvements (like: refine error message, simplify code, remove unused and double code, expand abrreviations, remove code unfit for mainspace, fix code errors, add errorhandling) [10]. In its documentation, again I did not change the essence. I did do clean up, added examples, fix spellings, add user-helpfuls, etc. [11]. None of these edits changes the template's basic documentation or regular output.

Using {{Template:M}}: Before I joined, on June 16, JJ already had announced its roll out, and later published its usage in mainspace. (Note that JJ's formatting per the template and my formatting proposal are in agreement!). Strange is that JJ here says a template I have been preparing (sic): it was live in mainspace in ca. 150 articles. The template did not claim any restriction for its usage. So I recently edited ~50 articles already using that template, following all its intents and purposes (and, not coincidentally, the ordering as done by USGS) e.g., [12], [13].

So far. Edits outside of the under-discussion topic can't reasonably be called controversial, or editwarring. There is no blanket rule to say: you should discuss each and every edit first. WP:BOLD and BRD will do.

Now about the controversial topics & edits. Sure there are edits I better had made differently or not at all, for various reasons: like [14], [15]. In other words: these are incidents.

Edits by JJ making an issue personal: Your personal conception of "truth" is irrelevant in es. First ignoring SI and ISO sources, then turning this as if it is something "personal". I already noted this here.

Here JJ writes: Before you over-extrapolate your physics in an area new to you. Above, in this ANI, in paragraph 2: DePiep, self-declared as "recently entered the earthquake domain, coming from the physics department" is used as a argument somehow in ANI? While actually, here is the literal example from WP:NPA#WHATIS: "you're a train spotter so what would you know about fashion?". (I also note: The diff is possibly off-topic, or even can be read supporting my layman's point in there).

In one reply [16], JJ says both is just your personal opinion and you have not cited or provided any basis or authority for your opinion other than to chant "SI! SI! ISO!".. So while ignoring the sources I mention, blaming me for not mentioning sources and then attacking the strawman. Note the dismissive wording "to chant".

Before JJ and I met, an other editor is addressed And you are being a jerk [17]. Not that I went to search for this, but it's hard to not-read it.

Blaming me for starting talks. In this very ANI post ([18]), paragraph 2, 3 and 4, JJ blames me for starting a talk and arguing. [DePiep] began opining at Talk:Seismic scale that ..., He has subsequently argued ..., I have expressed reservations about .... Why is this an argument in ANI at all I wonder, other than to compliment me for going to Talk in the first place??? Some talks I started: [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24]. AFAIK, I have not made any edit based on any inconclusive talk I opened.

Touch of WP:OWN: JJ seems to think that by saying "Do not edit this", no edit may be done. However, that is not how WP work. For example, this reply says For now, leave it alone as a command (while the better, harmless and non-controversial edit is to switch it off for being untested and unfit for mainspace). Also commanding is Absolutely do not ... (it should be by argument of course) [25].

Reverted with the wrong reason: Six edits by me were reverted in a pattern. In the es, JJ mentioned a reason to revert, but that reason was incorrect. These are the edits: rv1-2-3: no, the template was not broken, no it was not an "I don't like the format" (turning this personal btw), and yes there was an an improvement. rv-4, rv-5 (the example was sourced in the es), rv-6 - it was and is. It looks as if they were reverted without having any consideration wrt the actual change.

Blanket complaint. JJ's approach is throwing all my edits into one basket. Edits should be differentiated. In the 2nd sentence opening line: DePiep has been a persistent problem is personal (in itself not that noteworthy, but it relates to the whole approach).

Round up. All in all: Bad edits, as exceptions, I already admitted. Controversial edits hardly occurred, but instead were extensively addressed on talkpages. Edits of non-controversial nature (e.g., improve existing documentation, template-technical edits, use template) were done using existing templates, talks and practices, for example as created and promoted by JJ. Usually these are fit for BOLD and BRD. Claiming that each and every BOLD/BRD resolvable edit is under this ANI-complaint is not fair, and so is the editwarring and not-talked accusation that follows that misconception. I did point to some unhelpful edits by JJ, both by making things personal and by making less correct edits (like rv's). That are ngog presented as cut-and-dried trespassing judgements, but they do paint the atmosphere.

Re Dawnseeker2000: to speed up this posting, I will reply to their post later on.

I conclude: I fully accept that some of my 100+ edits in this area were bad up for improvement (afterwards or even beforehand). Also I tried to describe here that the other edits were either out of controversial area (BOLD and BRD acceptable), were within accepted writing (e.g., by current template usage), and other edits were about improvements of the topic in dispute (Talkpages).

I protest the approach by JJ of blanketing all my edits into one ANI complaint, for example even mentioning Talks I started as objectable. I also pointed to some unhelpful edits by JJ, both in say BRD-handling and personalising an issue (earlier; yes, pot & kettle).

How to proceed?: I think in this situation it's hard to get this WP:EARTHQUAKE area back on track in communications and article improvements between us. To allow such improvement though, I therefore propose that I voluntarily shall not edit in this area for a year. The area includes: WP:EARTHQUAKE esp wrt seismic scales, templates etc. and their talks. Unless, that is, I am explicitly invited by an active WP:QUAKE member. -DePiep (talk) 14:59, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Rejoinders

DePiep protests I have made a "blanket complaint", that I am "throwing all [his] edits into one basket." That is correct. I am not looking for relief regarding a number of individual edits ("100+"?), which would be tedious and even tendentious to raise here, but on the pattern of his behavior.

He argues that "[e]dits should be differentiated", but that is to evade the pattern of behavior. (As lawyers say: when the other side has you on the law, argue the facts; when they have you on the facts, argue the law.) Nonetheless, I do agree that patterns should have a factual basis, and a close examination of some these instances could be in order. And even welcome, as I see his interpretation of several cases as being higly skewed, even false.

Which I think touches on a key problem here: DePiep's highly skewed perception of various matters. E.g., the background I provided of where this issue started he characterizes as "Blaming [him] for starting talks.". That characterization is simply ludicrous.

Similarly for his defense of his using the template. He goes to some length to prove that it was okay to use the template, but (as I anticipated in my complaint) he still fails to understand that the issue is not the use, but how he used it.

He states: "Controversial edits hardly occurred, but instead were extensively addressed on talkpages." Apparently he does not consider reversion of his edits as an indication of controversy. Or perhaps he does not accept that as controversial unless we persist in reverting his edits. That, of course, would be edit-warring, which I and Dawnseeker2000 eschewed. I note he rejects some of my reversions as having "the wrong reason"; I don't believe the significance of a reversion depends on his assessment of the reason given.

Nor were his edits "extensively addressed on talkpages." As mentioned in my complaint: he started editing the template on the 8th, and the documentation on the 6th, while his initial edit at Template_talk:M ("Major error") does not pertain to any actual edits. Not until the 9th was there any discussion (and very thin at that) pertaining to any editing.

DePiep has offered a voluntary topic ban, but only for a year. I don't find that limitation acceptable, as I don't want to have to go through this again in a year. And it should be an enforced (non-voluntary) ban, lest he have any confusion it is at his option. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:45, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Earliest time to reply: Saturday or Sunday. -DePiep (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Just an observation

• I hope both of you realize no one's going to read all this, right? EEng 02:57, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
• I have, glazed eyes and all. The solution may be DePiep's offer of a one year topic ban, as the goal is just to stop disruptions and get people back to editing in that topic area productively. It would have to be an enforceable topic ban (in lieu of a block) where he understands that if he breaches it, it will mean a block of no less than say, two weeks. That would provide the proper incentive. Him admitting some of his work was less than helpful makes this a bit easier to work with. As for "having to deal with this again in one year", while that is a valid concern, a one year solution is better than none, and that is kicking the can far enough down the road that I think it is worth considering. Terms would read "Depiep is topic banned from all earthquake topics including seismic scales on all pages of Wikipedia, broadly construed. A minimum two week block will be imposed on any clear violation of this topic ban. As this is a voluntary topic ban in lieu of a block, there are no provisions for appeal." with no exception for invitations. Depiep would need to agree to this tban, which is slightly stronger than his idea, and the community would need to have no strong objection to it. I think you have to leave out exceptions simply because that makes it harder to police and can lead to problems. It has to be a cut and try tban. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:40, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

No one other than Dennis Brown, of course. That goes without saying. EEng 20:08, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I could accept that. And I would offer that he can make suggestions on my talk page, provided he understands that if I "disinvite" him he is expected to respect that. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:06, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

The problem with exceptions is that they must be interpreted by the community each time. Better to have no exceptions. He can always email you ideas, as email is exempt from the tban, as long as he doesn't talk about the emails here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:10, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Loganfisc - questionable edits

Loganfisc (talk · contribs) has been creating articles about nonexistent animated TV series and today has been adding invalid TV network categories to articles about TV series. They has been warned numerous times today alone and they have neither responded nor changed their behavior. Trivialist (talk) 22:30, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Blocked 31 hours for disruptive editing. I have some doubts as to whether this person is here to contribute constructively, but I started with a short block. Let me know if it continues. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:21, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Possible sock? There was a now blocked user who used to do this. Can't remember the name.--Auric talk 15:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Tendentious editing by NadirAli across Multiple Articles

Despite the fact that User:NadirAli was warned not to edit war by User:GoldenRing just four days ago at Arbcom [26], this man has continued to do so, ignoring consensus established by at least three to four users. The issue started when NadirAli blanked a large chunk of material from the Kalash people article [27]. He was reverted by other users, including myself, but then proceeded to continue edit warring and tagging the article [28], [29], [30], [31], [32]. On the talk page of the article, he justified his inclusions by using story books and alt-right sources such as "raceandhistory.com". It seems that this individual suffers a major WP:COMPETENCE issue, which has been noted by other users before, like User:FlightTime [33]. Other users disagreed with the troublesome behavior, including User:Capitals00 and User:Anupam noted that two different held by scholars should be represented in the article and this was agreed upon. Nonetheless, NadirAli defied consensus in the talk page and gave more weight to his preferred view [34]. Countless users regularly waste their time telling this man not to edit tentenditiously on India-Pakistan articles, such as User:Joshua Jonathan [35] or User:Kautilya3 [36]. This man was banned for several years from India-Pakistan topics and doesn't follow consensus on other topics either, including articles about Star Wars, as noted by User:EEMIV [37]. Is it time for us to consider whether the project is wasting their time having to constantly block and coach this stubborn man? I'm mostly a WikiGnome but I can spot trouble when I see it. Two options - site ban or topic ban? Knox490 (talk) 04:11, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

This is not an "edit war" across multiple pages. I have opened discussions on those two pages. The Kalash article is disputed, and as user:Mar4d pointed out, the vast majority of sources support for Animism. So mentioning most in the article, a basic fact you seem to ignore and openly reject in the article is going to be a problem for many users. The dispute is still on and I will point administrators to talk:Kalash and talk:Hindu at discussions I myself started for verification before simply believing Knox490's attack accusations. I have been on Pakistan topics for a year and a half.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 04:18, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• Thought I'd ping User:El C, User:Ohnoitsjamie, and User:Future Perfect at Sunrise - 3 sysops who've blocked this man in the last year. If I listed all the sysops who've blocked this man, I'd get carpal tunnel - 17 sysops in total. Knox490 (talk) 04:24, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I did not start any edit war with you. Check the article history. I pointed you to user:Mar4d's comments on the talk page and you left this comment in your edit summary. As such I placed the disputed tag. After that you suddenly opened an ANI. I request administrators to review the talk pages first and article history.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 04:37, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment In my opinion, this is a content dispute and should be treated as such. The talk page is the best venue to solve any inconsistencies, and I have already left my input there. I would not say the current article is perfect, but it is nevertheless somewhere on a middle road. Having studied the various WP:RS produced on the subject, the majority of the scholarly view suggests the Kalash religion is animistic. There are some sources which construct a link to pre-Vedic Hindu beliefs, but the connection remains vague and not as extensively discussed by sources. They are still incorporated in the text though, as they are theories. I have already indicated that the most reasonable rewrite would be one which primarily focuses on their animistic practices, and combines input from those sources which suggest a Hindu origin. The majority of the sources favour the former, so in terms of WP:WEIGHT, we should write it according to what the sources imply. I suggest that all involved users use the talk page to discuss this further. Thanks, Mar4d (talk) 05:17, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I have been discussing the disputes, which you have ignored [38][39][40]--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 07:22, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• I tend to agree that this is a content dispute at this stage. I don't think the description "blanked a large chunk of material" is entirely fair - that diff contains a lot of changes and the movement of a large slab of material to another place in the article. I would advise NadirAli to edit carefully; I'm rather concerned when an editor claims that the "vast majority of sources" supports their view, but what they've actually done is replaced text sourced to Ethnic Groups of North, East, and Central Asia: An Encyclopedia with their own text sourced to [41]. If the vast majority of sources support your view, then back your text up with your best sources, not this. If this is actually the best source you have for your position, then I think it's time to back down a bit. GoldenRing (talk) 08:26, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

To editor GoldenRing:, thank you for your comment, but that is not what I was referring to. Please see the links on the talk page which I posted as well as Mar4d posts. (talk:Kalash people). Those were the ones I was referring to. The other issue I had was the disputed tag removal in the article as in the case of Zia Ul-Haq's Islamitisation (that dispute was been now long resolved). Other issues were edits like these. I have been wanting to have this article to be receive arbitrary sanctions because it has been targeted by various nationalists from Greek to Macedonian to Indian. Your help in nominating it would be useful.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 18:57, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

To editor GoldenRing: These were the sources I was referring to, in addition to the ones presented by user:Mar4d (some of them may overlap) [42] [43] [44] [45][46][47][48][49]. There's many more, but I think is is good enough. Regards.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 23:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I have no opinion except that I looked at some of the edits, and the editors are warring with each other, making personal comments, within the Edit summaries. This is not the best practice for anybody and could be grounds for action. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 23:38, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

NadirAli, you just requested article protection because you said "Greek nationalists" and "Indian nationalists" have "targeted" it. This is exactly the reason I came here - your WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality should not be tolerated here and I say this as someone of Anglo-Saxon heritage. This is what got you banned from Wikipedia for years and from India-Pakistan articles. I don't think you can edit constructively here and think that sysops here should consider re-implementing that ban.Knox490 (talk) 20:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban on all India-Pakistan articles. I have not interacted with this editor to my knowledge, but a thorough look at NadirAli's edits seems to show a battleground mentality -- he gets into arguments with people accross numerous different articles. The discussion above also seems to show that NadirAli is willing to delete information backed by reliable sources to push his own POV, rather than accept the best efforts of other users who are willing to compromise with him. This hasn't happened once, but numerous times. Looking at his block log, NadirAli has been blocked over 20 times and I think other constructive users are annoyed in having to deal with his editing behavior. --1990'sguy (talk) 21:37, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment/Question - What're your thoughts about much of that same problematic behavior -- e.g. battleground mentality, non-NPOV, non-AGF -- outside the India-Pakistan topic? --EEMIV (talk) 23:25, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I requested arbitrary sanctions (something I accidentally myself got blocked for), not page protection. Big difference. It's already been semi-protected for months. Also look at this comment by user:Dbachmann, an administrator. WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality? He's stating pretty much the same thing as I am. It's been edit warred over for years before I touched the page, even if my actions can be seen as "edit warring".--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 02:15, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment As someone who has written the history section of the FA INDIA as well as the History of Pakistan page, I can say with some confidence that as far as the content dispute is concerned, it is not all Nadir Ali's fault. The Kalash people article is one of the many articles in which India-POV editors typically find some "academic sources" and stuff the lead of the article with Indo-Aryan, "Hindu", "Vedic," etc. I've seen this for over ten years. Contrast the lead of the Kalash article on Wikipedia (which begins with: "The Kalasha are an Indo-Aryan Dardic indigenous people residing in the Chitral District of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province of Pakistan. They speak the Kalasha language, from the Dardic family of the Indo-Aryan branch. They are considered unique among the peoples of Pakistan.[9] They are also considered to be Pakistan's smallest ethnoreligious community,[10] practicing a religion which some scholars characterize as a animism,[2][3][4] and other academicians as "a form of ancient Hinduism".) with the the New World Encyclopedia article, which is based on the Wikipedia article, and which begins with, "The Kalash or Kalasha, are an ethnic group found in the Hindu Kush mountain range in the Chitral district of the North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan. Although quite numerous before the twentieth century, this non-Muslim group has been partially assimilated by the larger Muslim majority of Pakistan and seen its numbers dwindle over the past century. Today, sheikhs, or converts to Islam, make up more than half of the total Kalasha-speaking population.The culture of Kalash people is unique and differs drastically from the various ethnic groups surrounding them. They are polytheists and nature plays a highly significant and spiritual role in their daily life." (See here) Do you see the difference, the subtle POV pushing in the Wikipedia article in the service of WP:Lead fixation? Nadir Ali, should no doubt not engage in edit wars, but his opponents are not innocent, just because they are paying lip-service to Wikipedia etiquette and have access to academic sources, which they are no doubt misusing. Every one should be given a warning, a stern one. No blocks or topic bans required at this stage.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:04, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

To editor Fowler&fowler:, would you and others not agree that the WikiProject Hindu needs to be taken off that talk page? It's an article about an ethnic group, not a religious group. If I were to attempt to remove it, I would be libeled once again. As examples talk:Tajik people, Talk:Pashtun people, Talk:Uzbek people, Talk:Sindhi people, Talk:Tartar people. Despite these people being primarily Muslims, I do not see them tagged with WikiProject Islam. I see this as a move of deliberate appropriation, but again would refrain from removing it for the same reasons have been astonishingly accused of (WP:BATTLEGROUND?).--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 06:47, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I have removed WikiProject Hinduism banner, and I suggest no one add it again without substantial discussion and consensus on the article's talk page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:42, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support Tban. I realize that people can and do change. On the other hand, people are very often creatures of habit. User: NadirAli has been blocked a great number of times and as recently as this month he was blocked. So he is stubbornly and persistently a problem editor. I realize that people have strong feelings about religion/country and often try to impose what they wish was true rather than base matters on scholarship and the use of reliable sources. But we have to keep up our standards and not lower them. A topic ban is appropriate at this point. We can't allow people to aggressively push the use of dubious sources such as the alt-right source and the other poor source that User: NadirAli tried to use. Knox490 (talk) 16:06, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support topic ban After reviewing the case and evidence, it is clear that NadirAli continues to be disruptive. NadirAli hasn't demonstrated improvement even after blocks by numerous admins, including five in 2016 and 2017, some for repeat violations after coming out of a block. The extenuating arguments made above are unpersuasive. To say some or many "academic sources" are "allegedly somehow" bad does not make sense. That is asking for a license for POV-pushing and encouragement to abandon wikipedia's content policies such as verifiability, reliable sources and NPOV. We can't pick a side if and when there is a dispute in academic sources, we summarize the sides. If some sources are to be banned from wikipedia, don't selectively delete them in some articles and keep them in others; instead, nominate that source with evidence of wiki-plagiarism, then add them to WP:PUS like admin Utcursch has done with Gyan Publishing etc. If you can't provide evidence, please don't defame living scholars and please don't disrupt. NadirAli, as mentioned above by GoldenRing, removes tertiary source such as "Ethnic Groups of North, East, and Central Asia: An Encyclopedia" by James Minahan (whose publications have been favorably reviewed), and adds questionable website sources such as kaleshwelfare.org. Again shows NadirAli hasn't cared to understand content policies after past blocks, continued disruption and WP:NOTHERE. An indef block, or one where NadirAli can appeal for an admin review after 1 year of constructive editing elsewhere, seems appropriate. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:24, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

In Nadir Ali's defense, I would like to suggest that the problem of misusing what are putatively high quality academic sources in Wikipedia articles to further a POV is a much more noxious one than one of just edit warring, for which we can all facilely quote WP policy. If Wikipedia has evolved in the last ten years, so has the ability of Wikipedia's editors to access academic sources. With the sheer amount of published academic material available, it is quite easy to find academic citations for assertions that, in sequence, shift the slant of the article. As I stated above I have seen this in a number of Pakistan- and Afghanistan related article, in which editors with access to academic sources introduce subtle ideological shifts involving "India," "Hinduism," and so forth, . Consider, for example, the WP article on the Hindu Kush mountain range, situated not far from where the Kalash people live. What do articles on mountain ranges typically have? It is not hard to see, by examining Himalayas, Andes, that they have sections on geography, geology, hydrology, climate, ecology, and then brief sections, if any, on local culture, economy. Indeed the extensive Britannica article on Hindu Kush has precisely such sections: physiography, geology, drainage, climate, .... In early November, 2016, the Hindu Kush, article (total word count 1600) was not quite the model, but proportionally had as much about the mountain system as it did about historical topics (by which I mean; political history, religious history, social history, etc in which the name of the mountain range occurs). Fast forward to the Hindu Kush article in mid-December 2016 (total word count 2800). What has been added? It is the history section, especially a subsection on "slavery," which expands on an old notion that the mountain name got its name "Hindu Kush" because tens of thousands of Hindu slaves from India died in its forbidding defiles, all abducted by Islamic invaders, and so forth. I haven't checked but I'm reasonably sure that what was added was impeccably sourced and prefaced with "according to Professor So-and-so, ...". But you can imagine that when editors from Afghanistan or Pakistan see such changes, they get irritated. There is often not too much they can do because the edits are sourced to scholarly sources, and WP discussion on UNDUE etc are often inconclusive. (It is much easier to add UNDUE assertions sourced to impeccable sources, than it is to show that such assertions constitute a minority opinion in the larger literature on the topic.) This is the sort of thing that editors such as Nadir Ali, admittedly in their characteristic way, are battling. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:45, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

F&f: Edit warring about "undue assertions sourced to impeccable sources", without a shred of evidence that it is "undue" per reliable source(s), is disruption! If someone has a feeling / prejudice / personal wisdom that "a view may constitute a minority opinion", that is just a feeling/prejudice/personal wisdom unless that someone can provide a reliable source that states "view X is a minority opinion and here is the majority opinion". That is particularly true, in cases where the sources are stating that X is the majority view and the wikipedia article is already summarizing the majority view X. Your opinion and colorful language/assertion does not matter, nor does someone's OR with no source, nor source misrepresentations and nor 'citation pending request' which you seem to miss in this. Sockpuppets and persistently disruptive editors adding unsourced, unverified OR with gross source misrepresentations or pushing a particular POV do not "balance an article", they disrupt and push a POV. Nothing you state actually evidences any extenuating circumstances for NadirAli, since your edit diffs have nothing to do with NadirAli (which raises the question why are doing that). The evidence is that NadirAli keeps disrupting despite blocks by numerous admins, NadirAli keeps deleting reliable sources and edit warring with non-RS blog/website based content. GoldenRing, Knox490 and others are right about NadirAli's disruption, diagnosis and Tban proposal. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:02, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Sarah Welch: I already stated, and let me state again: Contrast the lead of the Kalash article on Wikipedia (which begins with: "The Kalasha are an Indo-Aryan Dardic indigenous people residing in the Chitral District of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province of Pakistan. They speak the Kalasha language, from the Dardic family of the Indo-Aryan branch. They are considered unique among the peoples of Pakistan.[9] They are also considered to be Pakistan's smallest ethnoreligious community,[10] practicing a religion which some scholars characterize as a animism,[2][3][4] and other academicians as "a form of ancient Hinduism".) with the the New World Encyclopedia article, which is based on the Wikipedia article, and which begins with, "The Kalash or Kalasha, are an ethnic group found in the Hindu Kush mountain range in the Chitral district of the North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan. Although quite numerous before the twentieth century, this non-Muslim group has been partially assimilated by the larger Muslim majority of Pakistan and seen its numbers dwindle over the past century. Today, sheikhs, or converts to Islam, make up more than half of the total Kalasha-speaking population.The culture of Kalash people is unique and differs drastically from the various ethnic groups surrounding them. They are polytheists and nature plays a highly significant and spiritual role in their daily life." (See here) Do you see the difference? All the words Indo-Aryan, Hinduism, are absent in the latter article, which was written by cleaning up the Wikipedia article. Contrast the article Hindu kush that you've rewritten in large part—thereby conferring on it the honor of being the only Wikipedia article on a major mountain range whose history section (with notable slavery section) is bigger than its geology, physiography, palaeogeography, drainage, climate, and ecology put together— with Britannica's Hindu Kush. Do you see the difference? You, on Hindu kush, and other editors on Kalash people, are violating all sorts of Wikipedia guidelines, in spirit if not in the letter. Nadir Ali might be doing it more in the letter (of the law). But so what? Damage to these articles is being done by everyone. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:20, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support Indefinite Topic Ban across all Indian, Hinduism related articles Disruptive editing going on since 2006. There is no chance that this editor will not create any further disruption. Marvellous Spider-Man 04:01, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

@Sarah Welch, so you call this and this "blogs"? At least it's more straight forward than the vague statements of "a form of 'Hinduism'" (an undefined term for a century and a half). It's the same as the joker who started this thread, persistently accusing me of using "a storybook" as a source, when Empires of the Indus is clearly a non-fiction book. That combined with the other sources I and user:Mar4d posted, along with most academic sources not referring to the Kalash religion as so-called "Hinduism". Using lies or misleading statements and false accusations to report a dispute on ANI should be given the strictest penalties--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 04:07, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose, and comment Having seen ANI threads go down the drain as, essentially, mud throwing contests in the past, I'm dispirited to learn that this is going in the same direction. As Fowler&fowler noted, "subtle" ideological viewpoints and editing have characterized South Asian articles since forever. I see it wrong to squarely single out NadirAli, as that would imply he alone is responsible. Because that is simply not true, at least from how I have seen him edit constructively on several Pakistan articles. I cannot help but notice that everyone in favour of a topic ban here are mainly those who seem to have had a history with the user. This thread was started with a proposal to "site ban or topic ban" NadirAli. And this is not to cast aspersions, but what is to say that those same users are foolproof clean from personal POVs, leanings and positions on certain issues, editing viewpoints (we all have one after all) and all else Nadir here is being accused of? I at least wouldn't place the odds very high, knowing this topic area and as Fowler&fowler eloquently put out. I think we'll defer the rest to an admin's judgement, but I must say I'm quite disappointed to see things go down this route escalating from what was originally a content dispute (and where I would still back my horses on Nadir's argument; the theory that Kalash have Hindu origins remains vague, and certainly not scholarly favored any higher than their animist origins; and the compromise version thus worked better than the previous revision). Mar4d (talk) 06:52, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

BLP Violations by Liberty7777

I noticed this on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#James White (theologian).

User:Liberty7777 has been inserting material into the BLP at James White (theologian) with citations to youtube, facebook, jihadwatch.org, conservativereview.com, etc. Using the Jihad Watch source appears to be a BLP violation, and the conservative review page does not appear to mention James White. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:27, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

...and he has kept doing it, after getting his ANI notice and Notice of discretionary sanctions.[50][51] --Guy Macon (talk) 03:43, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Spamming

Ariel password (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is currently adding spam links to various articles. I think they are also copyvios but I could be wrong. Since the edits aren't vandalism I brought them here to get as quick a response as possible. MarnetteD|Talk 05:27, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely as a spam-only account. You can report this to AIV. There are some Indonesian IP editors and a few logged in accounts who are spamming these links. If this is coming from the same Indonesian ISP, there's probably too much collateral damage for a range block. Edit filters and spam blacklists are probably the best solution if this keeps up. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:56, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Yep, 'active, obvious, and persistent vandals and spammers' :) — fortunavelut luna 07:19, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi good too know for future reference. I found this late last night (my time) and didn't think I could use AIV. My other question is, since all of the links are for films still in the theaters, are the links copyvios that should be r/d'd. MarnetteD|Talk 15:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Possible legal threat on Indigo (virtual assistant)

Hi, I just came across an expired PROD tag on Indigo (virtual assistant) which Justin.mota (talk · contribs) added with the rationale: for legal reasons this page must be removed, from the owners of this application. contact [email removed but still visible on article]. Would this count as a legal threat? I'm not sure what to do in these situations, so I thought it'd be best to ask for other user's input. Anarchyte (work | talk) 06:24, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't look like an attempt to intimidate anyone. Instead, it alludes to vague "legal reasons" as a deletion rationale. I don't think it's much different than saying, "for important reasons this page must be removed". NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:21, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

The PROD on the article is expired. Why not just delete the article, and the PROD, along with it? Problem solved! John from Idegon (talk) 07:18, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

It is clear that this page about our virtual assistant was created by the company Artificial Solutions - the company I work for. This page needs to be deleted as soon as possible FOR LEGAL REASONS. I have requested this multiple times already, and have provided multiple email addresses to contact if there is any uncertainty. Please delete this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Justin.mota (talk • contribs) 10:09, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

@Justin.mota: If there truly are legal reasons for deleting the article, please communicate them to info-enwikimedia.org. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 12:37, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

The PROD has been contested by Future Perfect at Sunrise so the only way to get the page deleted is through the articles for deletion process. Considering that the issue ended up here at the Drama Board, you might want to avoid the use of "legal reasons" as a rationale. Favonian (talk) 10:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

@Favonian: Since the prod was originally placed on 20 June, it's a little bit late to start contesting it- what, three weeks later. — fortunavelut luna 12:28, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not the one to whom you should direct that remark, but in general: WP:DEADLINE. Favonian (talk) 12:33, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes as long as the article hasn't been deleted, it makes no sense to say the prod can't be contested. In fact even after deletion, the prod can still be effectively challenged at any time by asking for the article to be undeleted, there's no time limit. (The only exception will generally be if there's a good reason why the article needs to remain deleted.) Also the PROD process explicitly allows the uninvolved admin reviewing the prod to simply remove the prod without deleting. And likewise an admin can simply decide on their own to undeleted. Besides 20th June is misleading. It was removed by Cluebot in less than a minute. Without the prod being on the article, it's easily possible no one notice it was placed, I mean even if someone checked the article history there's little point looking every Clueboth reversion and the edit summary did not indicate a PROD was being placed. Besides it's also questionable if you need to contest a prod which was removed by Cluebot. So the more accurate time frame is about 8 days. Nil Einne (talk) 13:27, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

It had been removed by the bot you see. — fortunavelut luna 12:58, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

WHAT LEGAL REASONS? -Roxy the dog. bark 11:14, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Very loud ones, Roxy! :) — fortunavelut luna 12:22, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Seeing as how the alleged legal threatener has now been blocked, I suppose we will never know. Meh. -Roxy the dog. bark 12:35, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

No they haven't that I see. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

So aren't we going to block for legal threats? —JJB^ers 17:49, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Suggest an immediate WP:NLT block.--WaltCip (talk) 12:21, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Doesn't seem to be COPYVIO, and judging by news coverage and reviews, I'd say it would survive an AfD. Block for legal threat. Ignore legal threat. Carry on. TimothyJosephWood 12:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Also at ticket:2017071310013168 where I pointed out how they could request the deletion but explained that it would likely be a waste of time.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:27, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

To sum this up: I don't see the rationale for the PROD tagging by Justin.mota here or here a legal threat - in that it intimidates or threatens legal action against someone. Justin.mota - if there really are legal reasons that directly involve your concerns, you need to contact the correct team by emailing those concerns to info-en@wikimedia.org - they have the proper tools and training to investigate and assist you with this particular situation. Repeatedly adding proposed deletion tags to the article citing that a legal reason exists will only waste your time; following the directions I (as well as DoRD) gave you here is what you need to do. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:08, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Problems with the edits of the articles related to the historical figures of Vietnam

I see a lot of Chinese editors editing articles about Vietnamese historical figures in a disrespectful way. They edit figures' names and replace them with names based on their country's historical records (History is actually written by us, not them, but they edited all, they follow their own ideas without considering that what they do is wrong or right). I cannot accept this!

• They replace the name "Vietnam" or "Đại Cồ Việt" by the name "Annam" (In Vietnamese mind, "Annam" is the name referring to Vietnam used by French colonizers to stress that we are their slaves). This is disrespectful!

I know that the Chinese hate the Vietnamese and they always consider Vietnamese their descendants, slaves, dogs. But stop dreaming now, this is international encyclopedia, not Chinese subjective encyclopedia! Everyone needs to know truths, not dreams drawn by the Chinese about us! I'll re-edit all but please ban the Chinese editors that insulted our history. Thanks Huy Trịnh (talk) 15:22, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)Whether you can accept this isn't all that important, whether the writing fits inside the local rules is more so. First, all else equal, usage is supposed to follow the original edits. This is mostly to prevent whiplash back-and-forth between, say, North American English and British English, but you can make a pretty strong case this is something parallel. So, you are on pretty solid ground here.

Next, articles with a strong connection to someplace or something use the vocabulary proper to it. If you are writing about passenger car tires made for the US domestic market in South Carolina, you don't spell it tyres. So, you are also on fairly firm ground wanting Viet subjects to use Vietnamese terms....but you have to enforce it edit by edit, and writer by writer. No one is gonna ban an entire country from participation, tempting as that often is.

Finally, you have to take into account that this is an English-language operation, and, "Annam" predates French colonialism, and was a perfectly reasonable exonym even for what had been Champa. Reading malice into that isn't helpful, it makes you sound like you are looking for a fight regardless. Anmccaff (talk) 15:56, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Where exactly is this happening at? Can anyone provide diffs please? ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:00, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

User:Chernobog95

Chernobog95 has repeatedly been spamming links, whether copyrighted, unreliable, or not on several pages, most notably North Korea and weapons of mass destruction and Hwasong-14. He has attacked a number of users a number of times before and during his initial block, claiming that his edits and attacks on users are "justified". He refuses to take responsibility for the trouble he has caused and instead continues argue with the said users. --SamaranEmerald (talk) 17:16, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

It evident by your and others reactions that criticism is considered an attack by your standards and others who can't handle it while also my block under reason of "unsourced or poorly sourced material" which is absolute fallacy as is your claim that are unreliable and contradictory. If 38 North is not reliable then David Wright who made 6700km estimate is not reliable nor John Schilling who made 8000km estimate who was interviewed/cited in Yonhap News article used on Hwasong-14 page and you removed source to his article and his revised estimate of range for the missile while also continuing to force that 6700km estimate which David Wright later on in John Schilling article acknowledged that he did not take into account Earth's rotation and that missile would go farther when fired towards eastern direction which that article was removed containing both individuals who's estimates are used on Hwasong-14 article. I have repeated this multiple times and this has been ignored. John Schilling articles for 38 North are used on Hwasong-10, Hwasong-12, KN-08 and others while also on North Korea WMD page prior to me adding another source from 38 North. David Wright, John Schilling, Jeffrey Lewis and others have wrote for 38 North. You just couple hours ago removed Jeffrey Lewis tweet in which he shared estimate. Article written by Lewis is sourced on KN-08 and Korean People's Army Strategic Force. I have said probably multiple times, do you research. You did not even bother to look around on wikipedia as evident by your labeling these people and the site as unreliable sources thus don't try bullshit yourself out of this mess you and others have started with your claims fueled by ignorance. Chernobog95 (talk) 20:41 13 July 2017 —Preceding undated comment added 18:40, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I hope that Chernobog can find a way to work with other editors, because I think their knowledge would be useful on these difficult articles. But I'm not hopeful. Also see User talk:Andy Dingley#User:Chernobog95 Andy Dingley (talk) 17:19, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

It looks like there's a discussion currently ongoing at User talk:Andy Dingley - because if this, I'd like to hold off on considering action at this time unless disruption is blatant and continues. What URLs is this user adding that is unambiguous spam? Can anyone provide diffs as well as the reference? ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:58, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Inappropriate POV template removal by User:Jorm

Please see here. I may be right or wrong in applying the template to that page, but I applied it in good faith, and it deserves at least a discussion -- not a removal with a one-word edit summary. Furthermore, none of the conditions in Template:POV#When_to_remove were met, IMO. I think the tag should be restored at least long enough to to be discussed. If I'm a minority of one in my opinion, then that'll be apparent soon enough and it can be removed then.—Chowbok ☠ 06:49, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

You state that "none of the conditions in Template:POV#When_to_remove were met," but I don't see that you've met the conditions for application of the template — "identifying specific issues that are actionable within Wikipedia's content policies." Saying that It reads like a press release. You'd never know that she was even a slightly controversial person from reading it. All content thought to show her in a negative light has been quickly weeded out does not identify any specific issues nor does it address how you believe these issues should be handled with reference to our content policies. Rather than run to ANI because someone removed what amounts to a drive-by tag, why not slow down, engage on the talk page and discuss what you think should be added? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:03, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I think you make a point which would be reasonable as a response to my comment on the talk page, but I don't think it's a sufficient reason for removing the tag before it's even discussed. It certainly beats "Nope" as an explanation, though.—Chowbok ☠ 07:11, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Chowbok, you might as well give up before you start. The likes of Jorm police those articles and you'll never get your way (even if you're right/reasonable). Pain in the bum, I know, but sooner or later they'll become inactive (you just have to live longer!). FWIW, I've used that sort of explanation in a POV tag before now and then discussed on the talk page without any great fuss - but Jorm etc will stonewall. - Sitush (talk) 07:18, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

While I believe the tag is premature, I do feel it is worth discussion and have thus engaged on the talk page. These articles read as extremely positive and mention nothing about how polarizing these individuals are. I invite Chowbok and Jorm to work towards a solution. --Tarage (talk) 07:22, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Can you point to a single example of Jorm "working towards a solution", ever? He has his cute little phrases like "cool story, bro", "talk to someone who cares", and "because you are an asshole." By cutting and pasting those phrases he avoids having adult conversations with those who disagree with him. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:32, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Exactly, Guy. He's not a positive to the project, just a niggling presence. - Sitush (talk) 08:55, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• There are dozens of articles where editors express their dissatisfaction by adding POV tags without a plausible justification. It is not enough to express an opinion that the content is POV—what is needed is the precise text that is claimed to be POV, and why, with reliable sources. In an ideal world, Jorm would have spent an hour explaining all that, including paraphrasing the documentation displayed at {{POV}}. However, that is not possible in articles such as Brianna Wu which has "ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES" at Talk:Brianna Wu. Johnuniq (talk) 10:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Nothing on the template page says that the "precise text" needs to be pointed to, actually. It says to add it when "you wish to attract editors with different viewpoints to the article" and that you point to specific policies that the page violates. I agree I didn't go into as much detail as I probably should have, but the template is pretty clearly meant to signify the start of a discussion. And again, if people disagree with me, the thing to do is to discuss it--not simply remove the template, especially on a 1RR page.—Chowbok ☠ 07:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• The article in question is one of a series of contentious pages (WP:ARBGG) where each comma is fought over. In a case like that, it is unacceptable for someone unhappy that the article does not express their POV to put a shame tag at the top. You added the tag in good faith. Please accept that it was removed in good faith. Johnuniq (talk) 10:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• But was it? Jorm is as biassed as they come at articles such as this and he knows how to lawyer. - Sitush (talk) 10:43, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Given Wu is under GG sanctions, it is one thing if an IP/SPA came along and dropped the POV tag, or if an editor that had been tussling with others on that page came along and did the same. Jorn or any other admin would be in the rights to quickly remove it without discussion. But when an experienced editor, apparently uninvolved editor (either on that page or in the topic area) as Chowbok appears to be comes by and tags POV, there better be a good reason to remove it, and a single curt word is not sufficient. --MASEM (t) 14:17, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• I am also an experienced editor who is completely uninvolved with Wu or gamergate. I made a good-faith conclusion that the requirements for adding the POV template have been satisfied and indeed, that there is a POV problem that should be discussed. I re-added the tag and was reverted. So, ignoring the content dispute (ANI does not issue rulings on content disputes), we have a behavioral problem, which is multiple editors refusing to follow Template:POV#When to remove. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:40, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• I don't see any post on the article talk page from you explaining what specific, actionable changes you believe need to be made to the article to make it NPOV. You aren't following Template:POV#When to use. The editor who adds the tag should discuss concerns on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. In the absence of such a discussion, or where it remains unclear what the NPOV violation is, the tag may be removed by any editor. If you're pointing to your line about the "moon rocks" thing, you don't appear to be arguing that it's an NPOV issue; indeed, I don't see how it's an NPOV issue either way to include or not include a throwaway line about a single tweet she made. It appears to be a question of what merits inclusion in a brief biography, and that's a matter for editorial consensus to decide. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:48, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• If you don't see any post on the article talk page that you think explains specific, actionable changes that need to be made, the proper thing to do is to ask for an explanation, not to remove the POV tag during an active and ongoing discussion. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:15, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

This strikes me as a disagreement over content and consensus. I don't know whether an informal poll on the talk page is sufficient, or whether we should go full RfC, but I think finding out whether there's broad agreement or not would be useful. Thanks. Dumuzid (talk) 14:52, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

This is not a disagreement over content and consensus. If it was it would be rejected at ANI and the participants told to take it to the article talk page. This is a user behavior problem. To be specific, multiple editors have removed a valid POV tag in direct violation of policy instead of following policy and discussing the POV concerns on the article talk page. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

While I understand your argument, I will have to respectfully disagree. This strikes me as another facet of WP:BRD. Two editors making the same edit once strikes me as thin gruel. But à chacun son goût. Dumuzid (talk) 17:18, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Welcome to the walled garden that any page related to GG has become (and now appearing in other areas), and why I've kept out of it as much as possible since. Just as there was at ArbCom, there have been groups of editors circling wagons around these topics that do not want the POV to be challenged, and while we have to be vigilante in the area against IP/SPA that want to disparage living persons, dismissal of concerns of previously-uninvolved, experienced editors like this is troubling and what ArbCom had warned about, even if it is over the exact specifics of when one can add or remove the POV tag. This is just a slight offence, nowhere near the trouble to go to the hassle of an AE report when a trout will do, but these are signs of the larger problem here. --MASEM (t) 16:01, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

NorthBySouthBaranof, regarding your claim that "I don't see any post on the article talk page from you explaining what specific, actionable changes you believe need to be made to the article to make it NPOV." two editors have already done that. Direct quotes:

"I realize this article is a target for trolls, but it is clearly overcompensating in the other direction. It reads like a press release. You'd never know that she was even a slightly controversial person from reading it. All content thought to show her in a negative light has been quickly weeded out."

"Agree. This article has no negatives at all. Sadly, it appears all three of the articles relating to this have not a single point of criticism in them. I'd go and hunt down some reliable sources myself but I don't have the time to do that right now. Can we agree there is a bias problem though?"

Regarding your claim that "You aren't following Template:POV#When to use. (The editor who adds the tag should discuss concerns on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. In the absence of such a discussion, or where it remains unclear what the NPOV violation is, the tag may be removed by any editor.)", I am not the editor who added the tag. The editor who added the tag did discuss concerns on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, and it is crystal clear what he believes the NPOV violation is. Please don't accuse me of not following policy when I have followed policy to the letter.

A POV tag was added. The editor adding it followed the rules and started a discussion explaining what he thinks there is a POV problem. Removing the tag instead of discussing his concerns with him is against policy, and those who have violated the policy should be warned, and if they persist, blocked. Note that this is a behavioral problem that has nothing to do with whether the editor who added the tag is right or wrong. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:24, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

"No negatives" is neither specific nor policy-based. There is no policy that says we have to include "negatives" for their own sake, and "negatives" is impossibly overbroad and vague. There is nothing actionable about saying "there are no negatives." An actionable NPOV argument would be, "Specific issue A is not covered in a balanced way and here are reliable sources X, Y and Z which present a viewpoint that isn't represented in the article." That would be a reasonable starting point for a policy-based discussion on what should be included in this biography. "This article doesn't say anything mean about her" is not.NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:42, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

"It reads like a press release. You'd never know that she was even a slightly controversial person from reading it. All content thought to show her in a negative light has been quickly weeded out." is specific and policy-based. The policy is WP:NPOV. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:06, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

What is "specific" about it? It doesn't identify anything that the user believes needs to be added from reliable sources because it cites no sources. Simply declaring that something is so is unhelpful - it creates no grounds for reasoned discussion or consensus-building. Take the time to find sources first - is that so difficult? If there aren't sources to be found, then the question answers itself. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I will leave it to the administrators to deal with your misinterpretation of our rules about when to remove a POV tag, should you be foolish enough to act of those beliefs. I am done responding to you. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:58, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I have no intention of removing it at this point; of course, the NPOV tag is not designed as a permanent scarlet letter and if there isn't a consensus to make any changes, it will naturally be removed at the point the discussion dies or is concluded. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:06, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Editor creating articles with no content

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User:Hatamtayy (talk) has recently (in the past few minutes) created a number of articles containing only links to off wiki documents. Most of these have been deleted via speedy-delete no-content tags, but at the time of my writing this he may be continuing. Requesting action be taken. SamHolt6 (talk) 13:57, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Now blocked, closing. Hayman30 (talk) 13:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

@Hayman30: @SamHolt6: Unclosing. Not so fast. RickinBaltimore has blocked indefinitely. I would argue that this is overly harsh. Hatamtayy was building a draft article at Draft:Ardalan Sameti, and was creating these "no content" article as a means to link to Sameti's publications. Clearly this was the wrong way to do this, and I had posted a note on Hatamtayy's talk page referring them to Help:Citing sources. I suspect this new user just didn't understand the process. A temporary block to bring their attention to the problem would be appropriate, but not an indefinite block. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:03, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Reping @Hayman30: @SamHolt6:. FYI, pings only go through if there is a a new comment with a new signature. They don't work when you edit a previous comment. TimothyJosephWood 14:08, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I'll switch the block to 31 hours. The issue to be was the user clearly ignored a warning to stop on their talk page and kept creating articles RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:09, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I think you have a good point that rather than an indef, it might be better to give a short-term block and see if the user is able to follow Wikipedia guidelines.

Is it possible that the draft article is autobiographical? The image on Hatamtayy is the same image in Draft:Ardalan Sameti.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:11, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Block switched, and user has posted an unblock request. I of course would be willing to roll back the block, should they understand why they were blocked and what caused the issue. RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:12, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It looks like the draft was deleted G11 by User:Maile66 at basically the exact moment I AfC declined, meaning I effectively recreated it. Not totally sure that it's G11, given that it's basically just a bibliography, but... feel free do discuss among yourselves. TimothyJosephWood 14:15, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I think WP:NOTBIBLIOGRAPHY was probably intended for this, U5 all the way. — fortunavelut luna 14:20, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't think the article is autobiographical. The user started the draft on their user page before moving it to a draft article. I think the image is just a remnant of not having completely emptied their user page after starting the draft. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:16, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Ok, thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:18, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Odd thing, is that it isn't really deleted. My log says I deleted it, but User:Hatamtayy/sandbox still exists. Maybe we cancelled each other out. Whatever, I'm fine with it not being deleted, since this has now being questioned as a bit hasty. — Maile (talk) 14:20, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

If someone is editing the page when it is moved or deleted, it occasionally tells you it's gone in an edit-conflict-style notice. But more often then not it treats it as a page creation. It's happened to me twice this morning alone. TimothyJosephWood 14:27, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I think we can be done with this thread for now. The user is temp blocked, and is no doubt on several watchlists at this point, so any further misdeeds can be managed. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:21, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

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Please review Light2021's behaviour at AfD

Last year we had this discussion at AN/I. Please review that discussion, and then consider the same user's behaviour towards Cunard at this AfD. Personally, I think Light2021 is in need of further support and direction from our admin corps; your mileage may vary.—S Marshall T/C 17:35, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I can only applaud your delicacy of phrasing, S Marshall  ;) — fortunavelut luna 17:47, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oh, and this discussion is another example.—S Marshall T/C 16:06, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Incivility and abuse by Cassianto

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Cassianto (talk · contribs) continues to abuse other editors in edit summaries and Talk page comments. Examples are "You really are a moron, aren't you"; "Do not edit war you idiot"; almost the entirety of their contributions to Talk:Harry Lauder#RfC on infobox, including "Go away, and try to be an adult when taking part in adult conversations", "Look at your answer and compare it to my question, you fool ...", "Please try and engage your brain when responding to comments", "Kindly stick your patronising comments where the sun doesn't shine", "I can only assume you are doing what you do best: trolling", "Personally, I couldn't give a fuck toss about your !vote and only persisted in getting an answer from you so others didn't think you were foolish. When you have as many FAs as I do, young boy ...". This is not new behavior from this editor, nor the first time it has been brought to their attention, the most recent attempt at discussion being just yesterday. General Ization ^Talk 17:49, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Then don't edit war. It's a little hard to weed through, but it's there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JJBers (talk • contribs) 18:06, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I meant to sign it. *Sigh* —JJB^ers 19:05, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Pardon? This is not about me (and I didn't edit Ariana Grande), but about the behavior of the named editor, even if when reverting other bad behavior. General Ization ^Talk 18:10, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

First, a warning, at 17:49 (despite WP:DTTR, by the way), and then this, literally three minutes later. What's the matter, did you have a change of heart? Forgot yourself in the frenzy of utter excitement to think that you were creating yet another warning to someone rather than doing some good somewhere (yes, I've checked your contributions, like you have me). Re the four day-old thread at Harry Lauder, did you see my adjustments to the "offending" text? I think someone may enjoy the drama a bit too much. Cassianto^Talk 18:21, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Although I could probably rest my case based in part on your reply here: WP:DTTR is a suggestion; in your case, your failure to follow the minimum standards expected of editors means that you should be afforded the minimum deference to your longevity here. And yes, I saw your "adjustments", and even took care to reflect them using strike-out above; the point being not the words as they exist on the page now, but as you originally typed them, and your attitude generally toward other editors. General Ization ^Talk 18:26, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

And as previously noted, I was well aware you have been counseled about this behavior (and blocked for it) in the past, and that it was discussed with you only yesterday, so when you simply removed the warning I left for you with a ridiculous comment I saw no reason to delay a report here. General Ization ^Talk 18:28, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Ah, bless. Tell me, how would you have liked me to have responded to your patronising templating? Award you a kitten? Give you a foot massage? Buy you an all expenses paid trip to Canvey Island? Let's get one thing straight; I don't conceal my contempt for "other editors", as you generously call them, who follow me about in order to poke me into fights and cause havoc where havoc needent be caused. Secondly, and perhaps more worryingly, because I reverted your patronising tag with a jocular comment, rather than my usual expletive, which I've somewhat become known for, you decide to pull on your running shoes and hot foot it to ANI? Are you sure you don't enjoy the drama? C'mon, we're all friends here, don't be shy... ;) Cassianto^Talk 18:41, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm sure I don't need to cite WP:BATTLEGROUND for anyone else's benefit. General Ization ^Talk 18:45, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I know of very few experienced editors with such a consistent battleground mind-set. Unable to set aside the snark/sarcasm/combativeness even when defending themselves against an ANI complaint. Wikipedia should not bear the brunt of serious anger issues. Somebody make a proposal. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:47, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I propose to go and do something else while I let the peanut gallery argue amongst themselves. Cassianto^Talk 18:52, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a community. It's not a utopia, but users are expected to meet certain standards of decorum and civility toward each other. The comment just above and aforementioned edit summaries suggest that Cassianto is either unable or unwilling to meet those standards. It's quickly nearing the point where, for the betterment of the community, Cassianto may need to be excluded from editing. —C.Fred (talk) 18:50, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree. Cassianto has a long history of rudeness. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 18:55, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Why don't we do one of those civility restrictions, where if you break it, you get blocked for a tiny bit? RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 18:51, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Based on their block log, it would be more than a tiny bit. They were blocked in January for one month for personal attacks or harassment. —C.Fred (talk) 19:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I see. Then 5 months or so? And then make the civility restriction appealable in more than the standard time—maybe a year? RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 19:01, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree upon 5 months, mostly due to their...not so great block log. —JJB^ers 19:07, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Cassianto, seriously, you of all people should know better than to engage in juvenile name-calling in edit summaries. It doesn't matter if the person you are engaged with is actually an idiot or is stupid, you just can't go around dropping that shit in edit summaries. You're better than that. You need to be bigger than that. Carrite (talk) 02:31, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Somehow, after all this, I think the clarity of civility policy should be raised at WT:Civility, where we can also ask whether this policy is an improvement or a detriment to the quality of the encyclopedia. --George Ho (talk) 08:26, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I've felt for some time that the community needs to come to grips with inconsistent, arbitrary enforcement of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, and the widespread feeling that there is, or even should be, a de facto exemption for "vested contributors." Yes, I realize that there is no such thing, and that all editors should expect equal treatment. But some of us would argue that vested contributors are a reality. We have not one but two overlapping civility policies because there was a feeling at one time that incivility is corrosive, and that double standards drive away contributors, adversely affect content, and undermine the project in a number of ways. Over time there seems to be a retreat from that position. We need to acknowledge that civility polices are not enforced against the "peons" (as one person said below) as it is against longtime content contributors and administrators. If this is indeed a good thing, let's acknowledge it and perhaps alter the civility policy. If it is a bad thing, let's work on that too. Anyway, this whole discussion is now moot and it should be hatted. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 12:51, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I'd agree that the last ten years have seen a slow but steady drift away from WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL and that this slide drives away potential contributors. Jusdafax 01:11, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Propose three month block

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The obvious place to go here would seem to be the three month block that didn't stick last time, and which followed basically a month after a month long block for incivility. This has become a monthly or bi-weekly tradition. Cass doesn't need it explained to them in crushing detail what it means to just not be mean to people, or to be reminded that they are expected to be civil, which is what a civility restriction boils down to. And we don't need a user around where you can mark your calendar according to the next expected ANI. If we're here again in a few months, escalate from there, and if that doesn't solve the problem then it's probably time to consider an indef so we can stop doing exactly this. This doesn't really need an extended discussion. If anyone is unfamiliar, interested and has a few hours to kill, you're welcome to dig through literally years of ANI threads about the same user and the same issue. That's quite enough I think. TimothyJosephWood 19:06, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Just get it over with before this inevitably turns into a 50 page thread. TimothyJosephWood 19:06, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support 5 months As stated, the three month block didn't work, so 5 months. Mostly stated above this section. —JJB^ers 19:09, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

User:JJBers, the three month block was imposed but was removed the same day after another god awful ANI thread. TimothyJosephWood 19:18, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't know that, I'll change it to supporting a three month block. —JJB^ers 19:25, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose It's the fecking internet, a bit of rough language does not merit a block. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:22, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support as the one who brought the question here (only this time, and only one of many). General Ization ^Talk 19:26, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support per proposer. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support - Although I'm reluctant because of the content creation, this seems to be the best thing. The content creation hasn't been going on for a while either, so it wouldn't be too bad for the encyclopedia. In addition, IIRC, they helped scare away Coffee, and probably more users. Thus, it would be beneficial for this user to be blocked. RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 19:41, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

RileyBugz, Please feel free to look in on this and this, just two re-writes I'm conducting on two very important people. Cassianto^Talk 20:26, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I am gong to call complete fucking bollocks on the claim that "they helped scare away Coffee". That sort of downright lie has no place in discussions like this. Coffee had problems that's were nothing to do with Cassianto. - SchroCat (talk) 19:44, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Sorry about that. RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 19:51, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the strike. – SchroCat (talk) 20:22, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose, per Darkness Shines. Becoming short tempered with edit warriors who do not heed warnings may not appease the peanut gallery, but it happens to those who spend their time building an encyclopaedia. – SchroCat (talk) 19:44, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• As that's the second reference to "peanut gallery", the first being from Cassianto, I'm curious. What exactly is the definition of this "peanut gallery"? Is it something like "ignorant masses"? That would be a very hard case to make given the collective experience among supporters of this proposal. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:52, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

The Peanut gallery was the 1950s era audience of children who attended the television taping of each Howdy Doody Show. — Maile (talk) 20:01, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

A case of .... If wiki gives you peanuts, make a gallery?? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:55, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Hat discussion distracting from the matter at hand — Preceding unsigned comment added by General Ization (talk • contribs) 21:45, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

You know, it's funny you should mention that correlation (use of the fairly obscure term "peanut gallery"). Is this interesting to anyone else? General Ization Talk 19:55, 14 July 2017 (UTC) I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Cassianto and I have worked together to raise the standard of many articles. What's your point. It certainly isn't "interesting" to anyone intent on building content, rather than infesting the drama the boards. (And no, despite your desperate claim, there is nothing obscure about the term peanut gallery) – SchroCat (talk) 19:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC) Mandruss, who the hell do you think you are? You come here shouting for a punitive block whilst at the same time, accusing SchroCat and I of being one and the same. Open up an SPI if you think you're brace enough. CassiantoTalk 20:22, 14 July 2017 (UTC) I think your unfounded accusation is directed at the wrong editor. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:24, 14 July 2017 (UTC) And there another: a penchant for ignoring WP:AGF and suggesting that other, disagreeing editors are only interested in drama. Not really suggesting anything, just find it interesting that your editing patterns, thought patterns and modes of expression have become so similar. But I'm sure it's from your long association improving the encyclopedia. General Ization Talk 20:04, 14 July 2017 (UTC) It's a good thing I have my AGF hat on, because otherwise it would be easy to take "just find it interesting that your editing patterns, thought patterns and modes of expression have become so similar" as suggestive of a socking accusation. There are enough senior editors, including a number of admins, who have met both me and Cassianto. I suggest you curtail that line of thought, if indeed it was there. – SchroCat (talk) 20:23, 14 July 2017 (UTC) You know, User:General Ization, it's not funny at all that you should use a tool like that here in this discussion. That practically amounts to stalking in my book and I hope you get a boomerang bad-faith block as a result. And I've only logged out because I don't want to be the subject of any of your snooping or insinuations. 109.144.220.64 (talk) 20:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC) It's hardly "snooping" to do some minor investigating, using an endorsed tool, when someone who contributes to a discussion here uses very similar language and reflects very similar attitudes to the editor who is the subject of a discussion of their violations of policy. General Ization Talk 20:18, 14 July 2017 (UTC) Careful General Ization, you're getting close to the next thread being about you. – SchroCat (talk) 20:22, 14 July 2017 (UTC) I see. I said I found it interesting; I still do. If you would like to see me blocked for that, start another thread here, please. General Ization Talk 20:25, 14 July 2017 (UTC) Close to the truth, but not quite all of it. Saying that you "just find it interesting that your editing patterns, thought patterns and modes of expression have become so similar" is too close to a suggestion of socking for comfort. – SchroCat (talk) 20:35, 14 July 2017 (UTC) You can't have it both ways. If you think that the similarities and what I think about them are not appropriate to discuss here, please stop discussing them. General Ization Talk 20:46, 14 July 2017 (UTC) ? I'm not trying to have anything two ways. As an administrator you should know that if you want to make entirely false snide accusations against someone who will pull you up on it, it's probably best to let the matter slip away, not try and continue the bluster and bullshit. Can I suggest you step away and stop discussing this. - SchroCat (talk) 20:58, 14 July 2017 (UTC) If you think these two editors are one and the same, either put your money where your mouth is at SPI or end this type of commenting. Unless the aim is to infer that there's socking going on in addition to the matter you brought to ANI. We hope (talk) 20:53, 14 July 2017 (UTC) I think that was already answered above, in the form of an explicit denial from one of the parties. I'm not the one who is perpetuating this particular line of discussion. General Ization Talk 20:57, 14 July 2017 (UTC) Big accusations (even put snidely) need big evidence. Next time hold your tongue until you know what you're talking about. – SchroCat (talk) 21:01, 14 July 2017 (UTC) You know what? You have no standing to tell me to "hold my tongue" about anything. Either you let this particular aspect of the discussion die out of its own accord, or you'll find me right here ready to respond to any accusations of improper conduct on my part. But do not tell me, in effect, to "shut up". You do not have that authority. General Ization Talk 21:27, 14 July 2017 (UTC) General Ization Talk 21:27, 14 July 2017 (UTC) You keep shooting, cowboy, particularly as I have not told you t shut up, just to get evidence before you shoot your mouth off next time. It's not me that's making unfounded uncivil accusations about others with absolutely no proof whatsoever. If you don't think it's worth lowering your head below the parapet to avoid dramah, then people will read into your stance accordingly. – SchroCat (talk) 21:40, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per Darkness Shines & SchroCat- Fan4life was acting like a child so got spoken to like one, I seen no valid reason to block, I propose this gets speedy closed. –Davey2010^Talk 19:57, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

This is not only about Cassianto's comments to Fan4life, nor was the list of examples at the top of this thread exhaustive by any means; it reflected examples based only on a cursory of their edits in the past four days. The editor does not limit their abuse to edit warriors, nor to any particular class of editors except those who make the mistake of disagreeing with them. General Ization ^Talk 20:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Agree with the preceding, and add: Assuming for the sake of discussion that this Fan4life was in fact "acting like a child", is that how you speak to children? I hope not. Might warrant an IBAN between you and children. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:03, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Why don't the pair of you stop trying to bludgeon other editors? You are both coming across as very hostile. Cassianto^Talk 20:33, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Point taken as to bludgeon. I've said more than my share here and plan to withdraw at this point unless someone addresses my comments directly. As to hostile, I plead guilty to being highly hostile to chronic incivility. I am not hostile to any individual. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:38, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose Fairly mild response to significant provocation. Folks need to stop poking the bear. Scr★pIron^IV 20:02, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose any sanction on Cassianto, who works very hard to add excellent sourced content. Yes, he should try not to be rude, but I don't see that as any big deal.Smeat75 (talk) 20:02, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support - civility is not optional. Anyone can be a little uncivil on occasion when tempers run high, but when it becomes a regular thing, it is not something to dismiss with a shrug and a suggestion that anyone who is targeted should grow a thicker skin. --bonadea contributions talk 20:05, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per all above. People are called worse than moron in traffic, yet they don't flag down the nearest policeman over it and ask the offender be booked for it. We hope (talk) 20:07, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• You are free to submit WP:CIVIL to MfD. It's a Wikipedia policy, and its nutshell begins with : "Participate in a respectful and considerate way." It is not a suggestion for optional self-growth. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:10, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Didn't ask-not interested. We hope (talk) 20:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

That speaks volumes, thanks. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:17, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

And you're totally welcome. We hope (talk) 20:19, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support - wikipedia is a collaborative endeavor and repeatedly being uncivil to other users does not foster a collaborative environment. --Imminent77 (talk) 20:11, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support. or in the alternative, get rid of WP:NPA, because there is no point in having a policy that is not enforced against a user with this record of incivility. As Mandruss points out, the project should not bear the brunt of a user with anger issues. Three months is lenient when their long block record, almost all for incivility, is taken into account. I'd be happy with much longer or indefinite. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 20:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose ultimately we're here to write an encyclopedia. Cassianto does a lot of that. The reverts were correct though the language unnecessary. The language was explosive rather than targeted/mean. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:17, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per Darkness; surely this is less than what the Encyclopaedia expects? — fortunavelut luna 20:26, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - who else is going to write these articles? Is Cassianto the new Eric Corbett? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:30, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Well, you've never seen us together, have you? Although Eric is a lot more intelligent than I am. Maybe Madruss General Ization will think that SchroCat and I are also Eric? Cassianto^Talk 21:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

@Cassianto: Kindly stop confusing me with General Ization. I corrected that error 26 minutes ago. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:54, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Mandruss, I've kindly stopped. My mistake. Sorry. Cassianto^Talk 20:58, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• I have it on good authority that, unlike the saintly Father Jackum, Cassianto doesn't have a brick. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:38, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support - Blatant and repeated incivility of this type drives away decent users. I don't believe I have encountered this editor previously. Looking at the diffs, I don't care how much content this editor provides if it's at the expense of others who merely disagree with the editor. Opposers seem to be OK with a Wild West mentality on this project, but their rationales are unconvincing. What I see is a classic internet bully who needs sanctioning. How many other content providers has this editor discouraged? Three months? I'd be OK with a year. Jusdafax 20:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I met Cassianto and SchroCat in a pub not too long ago. They said to everyone else that I liked Donald Trump and I was interested in improving articles about him. I told them to fuck off. We all laughed (as I knew they were taking the piss). It's called differences in culture - you cannot give offence, you can only receive it. For a similar, earlier, discussion, see User talk:Ritchie333/Archive 41#Cassianto (you'll need to unhat it). Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Oh dear, another one who complains about "rudeness" by being rude about others. You couldn't make it up! Cassianto^Talk 20:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

And I'd say your snark proves my case. You don't get it, and proudly don't care, believing yourself immune from criticism. Jusdafax 20:46, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

My snark? I refer you to your contradictory "Wild West" comment above. Also, I require a diff for evidence that I consider myself "immune from criticism". How do you know what I believe? Cassianto^Talk 20:47, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

One thing, from the About page: "Wikipedia is written collaboratively". If you can't be civil, and collaborate with other users, what's the point. —JJB^ers 21:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

There's a difference between users collaborating and users causing trouble. I have no time for trouble makers, but I have all the time in the world for collaborators. I'm here to write featured articles and write things which I hope people find interesting. Sure, I've tailed off slightly, but some of that has been a result of sitting around waiting for books (which I've bought for the benefit of Wikipedia) so I can complete Sandbox1, and the other, in Sandbox2, I'm waiting for a malicious RfC to finish before I carry on with it. The outcome, obviously, will decide on whether I do, or not. I'm not here to make friends; I'm not here to be nice to people who disrupt the project and who spoil my writing enjoyment. I'm here to be nice to people who collaborate, treat me the same as they themselves would want to be treated, and use common sense in adverse situations, rather than spout MoS shite at me, tag me on my talk page, drag me to drama boards, and then enforce make-believe policies on me that would, in everyday life, more than likely, be otherwise ignored. Some people here seem to forget what we are actually here for. We are here to create content. This is not a social media platform or a Tinder-style hook up site. It's an encyclopaedia where people write for the benefit of readers. The bottom line is, if someone behaves like a dick, then the chances are, they probably are one. If they are reasonable, then likewise, they probably are. It's not rocket science. But as has been demonstrated here tonight, if you do get on with someone "collaboratively", like I do with SchroCat, Ritchie, Martin, or We hope, then you get accused of being socks. Like I've said elsewhere, you can't make this up! . Cassianto^Talk 21:04, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

How do you feel about my suggestion to alter the civility policy to acknowledge a de facto exception for people such as yourself, those who are perceived as having earned the right not to be civil? That seems to be your position, even if not explicitly stated. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 21:51, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

@Cassianto: Like Figureofnine said above, just because of the fact that you write content doesn't mean you get a get out of jail pass for incivility. —JJB^ers 22:10, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but could either of you point to the part in my comment above where I've said that because I "write content doesn't mean [I] get a get out of jail pass for incivility" and where I've "perceived as having earned the right not to be civil"? There seems to be a lot of poetic licence being used tonight without much evidence. But still, don't let the truth get in the way of sensationalism Cassianto^Talk 22:21, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I said That seems to be your position, even if not explicitly stated. Am I mistaken? And how do you feel about my suggestion concerning NPA policy, to explicitly carve out an exemption for people perceived as being too valuable to sanction for civility violations? Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:32, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

But that's not quite my point. I've seen NPA actually become weaker and weaker over the years. The community abolished the civility noticeboard, WQA, in the view that civility is not important enough to necessitate a separate board. I am just acknowledging reality and suggest that perhaps we need to formally acknowledge the practice of permitting incivility from certain users. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:18, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. Thanks to the good General for stepping in and all, but do we get to hear from User:Fan4Life about their actual view of this unsavoury language? And what about such encyclopedia stalwarts as User:Sdfakjdfjklklasdf, etc.?? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:34, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. The amount of content added to the encyclopedia does not preclude him from criticism, but it does grant him a degree of influence. Offering him clemency would be an adequate outcome for this situation. SamHolt6 (talk) 20:40, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - I didn't start this because I thought it would get overwhelming support, but because I'd just rather get the thing over with. Not surprised to see plenty of "CIVIL doesn't apply to certain users" arguments. See you all in three to six weeks when we all get to make the same arguments again. TimothyJosephWood 21:53, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Strong Support. Here we are again. Cassianto is back from another rage quit, and engaging in the usual superior, uncivil behavior we always see from him. A three month block is, if anything, too lenient; it's clear he sees no reason to change, and has no intention of doing so. But at least we can be spared his uncivil behavior for a time. I don't give a hoot how much content he contributes; it's no excuse for the kind of behavior he demonstrates on a regular basis. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 21:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Remeniscent of the kind of bile spouted over at Wikipediocracy. Welcome on over! ;) Cassianto^Talk 22:07, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support Long overdue. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:21, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support I think several editors have hit the nail on the head here. We have a civility policy that is supposed to apply to everyone- even content contributors. The place didn't fall apart last time when Cassianto was blocked and during his retirement, and he is wasting more time with these monthly ANI threads regardless of his contributions. I don't mind the odd 'fuck off' but the diffs below demonstrate that his incivility extends far further than that.

• "I'm afraid I'm about to end your sexual arousal by withdrawing from the edit war; please, carry on at your lesuire, the article is shit and not worth defending"
• "I don't know if you're meaning to be an insufferable little prick, or if you're just drunk or on drugs. Whatever it is, I suggest you go and have a lay down somewhere and decide which one it is."
• "Is it just a socialistic crusade that you consider yourself to be the Führer of?"
• "Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about your !vote and only persisted in getting an answer so others didn't think you were foolish. Unfortunately, you've lived up to that now. As I've said previously, you're views here are worth nothing and are as flawed as one-legged arse kicking competion."
• "You go ahead and bastardise all their hard work. I see you're from California; tell me, why is it always the Americans who seem to be even more obsessed over Infoboxes than anyone else"
• "What a lot of delusional bullshit."

I think the diffs really say it all. This goes beyond the odd 'fuck off'. jcc (tea and biscuits) 22:22, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose block, but I'd support a ban from infobox discussions and -reverts for three months. I'd be happier without this, for example. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

That issue isn't under discussion here. We hope (talk) 22:28, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I have no time to read this whole mess, but it seems that all quoted diffs come from infobox arguments. Without them, we might have more tranquility, no? (unwatching) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:03, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

ARBcom is the answer to that issue so both sides are represented. We hope (talk) 23:10, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose with a reminder to Cassianto that his level of civility is stooping to that of a certain world figure elected in November 2016.--I am One of Many (talk) 22:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Lol, that's right, I'm also a sock of Donald Trump. Although I do take offence at the hair! Cassianto^Talk 22:47, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Weak support three months is pretty long, but it's not as if Cassianto doesn't know about the civility requirements. I have no desire to minimize the significance of his content creation skills, but at some point he has used up the goodwill earned by those content skills. Lepricavark (talk) 22:52, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support I'd more warmly support a two-month block in light of the recent one-month block, but the encyclopedia is endangered by its double standard governing "content creators" (read: old-timers) and the rest of us peons. It's impossible to gauge how many potentially-constructive editors are driven off by incivility, and "it's the Internet" is a weak argument. Miniapolis 23:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose block, suggest infobox topic ban - As mentioned by Gerda Arendt, pretty much all of the diffs about incivility come from infobox discussions. I would oppose a block because of the content creation by this user. RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 23:09, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose block on a vested contributor. Suggest BOOMERANG on OP. 207.38.154.23 (talk) 23:26, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Based on what policy? General Ization ^Talk 23:30, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Dear IP who popped out of nowhere, see Wikipedia:No vested contributors and [52]. -- Softlavender (talk) 23:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support -- Enjoy! Cassianto^Talk 23:33, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose any sanction. We're building an encyclopedia, Cassianto does a lot of that. Who proposes to take on his workload if he is blocked?--Wehwalt (talk) 23:35, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• There is no deadline, so there can be no "workload" for any editor. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:56, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support It doesn't matter if a contributor does lots of work. If you can't work with them, they are not working as a cooperating contributor. Please do not allow a double standard for people who edit frequently. --Tarage (talk) 23:58, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment Isn't Cassianto's support of his own block basically a self requested block? jcc (tea and biscuits) 00:00, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Note: Cassianto has been blocked for 62 days as a result of a self-block request. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:01, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Civility restriction

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I propose a civility restriction for Cassianto. This restriction would make personal attacks result in a six month block and each civility breach, agreed on by the community, would result in a four month block. This would be appealable in one year, as per the long history of civility breaches. RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 20:33, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 20:33, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Good concept but unenforceable. What constitutes a personal attack? How can we get agreement on the definition? Based on the discussion above, some users think it's okay to call another editor an "idiot" repeatedly. Is a personal attack anything that another user appeals to WP:AN[I] for a block about because they have "received offence"? That's so obviously abusable that I don't have to worry about spilling the beans in this comment. —C.Fred (talk) 20:44, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
  • "Repeatedly"? Is this another fancy statistic pulled out of the air of makebelieve? Cassianto^Talk 20:55, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
  • A personal attack is something that is unanimously (or pretty much) accepted as a personal attack. RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 22:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
    • By who? Someone on behalf of another? With respect, that's utter bullshit. But thanks for your opinion. Cassianto^Talk 22:23, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment I'm not clear on this suggestion. A perusal of the block record indicates he has been here before. His behavior in this discussion is anything but encouraging. Rather than have more drama, a long separation from the project seems most viable. Otherwise we need to revise the civility policy to make it clear that certain editors have a de facto exemption based on length of service, past or present content creation and/or status as an administrator (not applicable here), and that users not so favored need to either take their abuse or get out of the project entirely. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 20:52, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Has he been asked to apologise? If I was really, really offended by his language, could he be asked to apologise to me? Antipodean marsupials, anyone? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:03, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Do you mean here, or here? Or perhaps, both? But maybe this kind of rudeness is acceptable for someone offering good intent. Cassianto^Talk 21:30, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Pah! We'll have none of your clever tricks here, Cassianto! You deserve all you get!! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:40, 14 July 2017 (UTC) Please open a separate thread if you feel you need to address my very predictable WP:CIVIL issues. Thank you.

• Comment - Just think .... all of this energy spent on this poxy thread .... could be better spent improving actual articles for our readers .... just a thought. –Davey2010^Talk 21:04, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

*cough* .... Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:08, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

That's very true, Davey. Part of the problem must be that the night shift at Springfield Nuclear Power Plant sometimes gets a bit boring? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:15, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: I do think something needs to be done, but I don't think this precise proposal is the fix (it's too draconian, for one). Cassianto is the most prevalent abusive longterm editor I know of on Wikipedia, and he has gotten away with it for too long. I think what is in order here is an official final warning that the next serious breach will result in an unappealable three-month block. Unfortunately, this whole thread is tainted by the very poor and unwarranted block that Amortias enacted a while ago for something that was not problematical. But Cassianto's behavior, bullying, and threats do and will have to be dealt with sooner or later. It's hard for ingrained habits to change, but we have had at least one memorable instance a year ago where a longterm editor was taken to task for the nth time here for his bullying behavior, and he agreed to a self-requested block and a stay-away till he calmed down and changed his ways, which, thankfully, he has. Softlavender (talk) 22:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Hi, could you please provide some diffs the for "threats" and "bullying" you wax so lyrical about? Cassianto^Talk 22:09, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment One of the most frustrating parts of this is Cassianto refusal to take any of this seriously. He is openly mocking the process, unrepentant in his abuse, and even voting for his own block. Why is this behavior allowed when anyone else doing it would be reprimanded? --Tarage (talk) 00:02, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Unenforceable. All the definitions of "personal attack" and "civility" are completely subjective and various editors in the past have displayed vastly differing interpretations. This whole thing is just the Malleus debate all over again, but at the end of the day we've just lost a valuable contributor for three months because as a community we can't deal with mean words. I can't believe how childish we are. We're turning into a university "safe space". Miniapolis is right to point out that we have no way of knowing exactly what the cost of incivility is, but we know exactly the cost of losing an editor like Cassianto for 62 days. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 01:00, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Umm... Basalisk, (no offense, but) isn't that two months? --George Ho (talk) 01:06, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

If we're splitting hairs it's actually 2.0369 months. Who cares. It makes no difference to my point. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 01:11, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per Basalisk and C.Fred. Unenforceable, and this becomes "minimum sentencing", thus subject to abuse. Not specific to this case, but generally speaking, I think people here and in the real world get offended entirely too easily. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:19, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Civility sanctions you mean. Has this ever been done before at ANI (limiting any "personal attacks" from an editor with a block as the end result)? Wouldn't this be better dealt with through arbcom?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:32, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - as moot. The 62 day block is about twice what the offense merited, in my view; message hopefully has been received. Carrite (talk) 02:36, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose, what Dennis said and what Davey said. Joefromrandb (talk) 03:35, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - per Carrite, Dennis Brown and others above - and shouldn't this section be closed as Cassianto has now been blocked and therefore cannot comment or agree/disagree with what is being proposed here?Smeat75 (talk) 04:43, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Moot, as above. Also unlikely to be effective - there's a long history of "civility parole" doing nothing but causing more friction. Importantly, though, that now-hatted section in the above section shouldn't go without a comment from someone uninvolved in this dispute. General Ization, baselessly accusing two community members of deliberate dishonesty is at least as uncivil as name-calling and pissiness, especially in that snarky, "I'm not saying, I'm just saying" way that you did. If someone else has been rude, it's not a license to be rude to them in return. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:02, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I have left him a polite notice on his talk page advising him to raise those sorts of concerns at SPI, or not at all. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 09:52, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:DONTFANTHEFLAMES... — fortunavelut luna 07:32, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment. The status of this proposal, which was initially offered as an alternative to a block, is no longer clear. In fact, I'm a bit surprised this sub-thread is still open. Is this now a preparation for what happens in 61 day's time? But I'd like to repeat the comment that I made in the previous thread: do we get to hear directly from User:Fan4Life who very quickly removed Cassianto's apology here? What was their actual view of that unsavoury language? And what about User:Sdfakjdfjklklasdf to whom Cassinato apologised here? If the community thinks that apologies are worthless, it should say so. Shouldn't those two editors have been formally notified about this discussion? I mean if they had been invited here and had said "no real offence taken", would the result above have been any different? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Emails from blocked sock puppets

Hi, I'm occasionally getting emails from users that I never interacted with, usually pointing me to a discussion or an edit. The account is usually blocked for being a sock puppet. I presume this editor saw some of my other edits/discussions and assumes that I would represent their POV in the matter they are canvassing me into, thus acting as their meat puppet. If this is done to me, presumably it is done to other editors as well. Why at all is there a possibility for a permanently blocked account to send emails ? “WarKosign” 19:01, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Socks aren't "permanently" blocked, although it may seem to turn out that way in the case of some. In any event, e-mail access is not disabled by default when an account is blocked. If you are being harassed, you'll need to disclose who and the contents of the e-mail. If for some reason the content is private (to you, not to the sender), you can forward the material to an administrator, perhaps the blocking administrator.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:09, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Last email I got was from user:AmirSurfLera, this is the content:

Don't you think this is WP:Undue weight? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict&type=revision&diff=790388449&oldid=789898286

Usually it's just 1-2 emails from each such account. Tracking who blocked each email sender is more bothersome than the emails themselves. I can handle a handful of such emails in a year, the problem is that such behavior can be practiced at all while it's so easy to prevent.

As long as the user's page says that it's permanently blocked, what's the purpose of leaving email access ? If the purpose is to be able to appeal, only email access to admins is needed, allowing emailing other editors seems like an invitation for canvassing. “WarKosign” 21:22, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Why should tracking be hard? At the bottom of the e-mail it tells you who the user is.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:35, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

You wrote I should contact the admin who blocked the account. I would need to extract username from the email, open the user's page, see the block notice, go to the blocker's page, put a notice. The admin would need to look the user up, try to remember what the situation was - sometimes over a year ago - and consider blocking email access. All of this for one or two emails. Not worth the bother. “WarKosign” 07:55, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

All users have the option, under Preferences/EMail Options to uncheck the box "Enable email from other users". Nobody is required to enable emails. — Maile (talk) 21:45, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree, but if a blocked user is blatantly abusing his ability to email others - I'm for disabling it (provided that it's true and ongoing, of course). ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:46, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• No user's page says that it's permanently blocked, just indefinite, which is not the same thing. And it's almost always open to appeal - the vast majority of indef blocked users do not abuse the email facility, and it is a legitimate way to appeal (and there's no technical way to restrict email access to emailing admins only). If a blocked user abuses the email facility, then yes, we do remove their access to it once they are identified, but the recipient of such an email has to start the process. Identifying the user who sent an email and the admin who blocked them is trivially easy, and we are not going to change Wikipedia policy and revoke email access as standard just because a recipient can't be bothered to perform such a simple task - and this is not the right forum to try to change Wikipedia policy anyway. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 03:52, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

You mentioned getting emails from multiple users who have been blocked as socks. Are they members of the same sock farm? Is this a person you had corresponded with before? If the emails are harassing, you could forward them to the functionaries or arbcom lists. However, not to spill any WP:BEANS, but - it's not entirely possible to prevent unwanted emails unless you just disable your email altogether. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

For some of them there was a link to an SPI with a long list of socks, a few of them I saw around. For some of them, like the last one, there is no link to SPI so I can't tell. All the suggested edits/discussions are in the same area of interest, which is the area where I usually edit. I presume the puppet master(s) believes that I share their POV and am likely to act upon their suggestions in the way they intent, so they must have seen me around. If someone wants to look into it, I can compile a complete list of these emails.

Each email by itself is not harassing, what bothers me is the idea that blocked sockpupets use email to operate meatpuppets.“WarKosign” 12:57, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

No one else has mentioned that they get this. What attracts them to you? Nfitz (talk) 19:39, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Victim blaming ? In case you have a doubt - no, I don't have a "please email me for free meatpuppet services" on my user page. “WarKosign” 22:21, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Victim blaming? Not sure why you think that? Doubt - why would you think I doubt anything? I was just thinking that if you get these and others don't, that there's a reason. So if we can figure out the reason, maybe it's easier to deal with. So what attracts them to you - is it something here, or something out in the real world? Nfitz (talk) 00:35, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't usually like posting here, but I would like to give a quick synopsis of this thread as I see it. A user who is being harassed by a blocked user(s) over email is here asking if something can be done to stop that. The answer, of course, is yes, though more information is needed to initiate the specific technical actions that would allow for that. Instead of getting that one-sentence worth of critical information, the requestee has instead been bombarded by the terminology police and been asked to check his/her own behaviour to see if they are doing anything that would attract such abuse. I would argue that both such comments aren't useful, or relevant to the request at hand. As someone who has experienced email-related abuse myself, I can tell you that it can randomly happen to those who respond to vandalism and spam. If I were asking the same question, I would be pretty annoyed and perplexed by some of the answers given here. Hopefully WarKosign can glean the useful information out of this thread and move forward with it. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 02:00, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Refusal to discuss concerns and refusal to properly source blps

• Durneydiaz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I came across Durneydiaz's edits while working on the New Page Patrol. I was concerned that Durneydiaz was repeatedly creating articles on living people which had no references, just external links, such as [53]. There were many examples. I also came across a page on New Page Patrol that was completely blank. There are 337 messages on Durneydiaz's talk page, including mentioning a 2011 ANI and most of the messages are about referencing concerns, and over many years. After taking advice from other members of NPP, I moved the blps with no clear refs (although some had links in an 'external links' section which didn't mention if they were used as sources for the article) to draftspace and sent talk page messages trying to engage Durneydiaz in a discussion and advising not to move the articles back to mainspace until they had inline citations. Instead, Durneydiaz ignored my messages at User talk:Durneydiaz and instead starting editwarring by moving the articles back into mainspace without any references (some external links, exactly as before). I would really just like Durneydiaz to discuss the issues, and start inline citations for blps, especially as Durneydiaz creates many. According to the talk page, these exact issues have been raised with this editor for more than 7 years with no changes. Matías Fissore is a typical example - it wouldn't take long for the creator to format and refernce this properly, but it would be very difficult for anyone else. 21:54, 14 July 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boleyn (talk • contribs)

• (Non-administrator comment) The talk page (User talk:Durneydiaz) is filled with CSD-notices. Kleuske (talk) 22:42, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Try looking for sources for these BLPs. If you find them, add them to the articles and problem solved. If you can't find any then AfD them and let the process take care of the rest. If he starts disrupting that process we'll have to deal with that as the problem arises. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 00:24, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Basalisk, adding sources is a good approach, but Durneydiaz has created 1605 articles and more by the day. I wouldn't be able to deal with such a big issue, plus most sources would be in other languages. I added 'blpsources' and 'inline' tags to some, such as [54] here on Maximiliano Sigales which Durneydiaz removed twice yesterday, although did nothing to resolve the issue. I see no sign Durneydiaz will stop. And the nearly 400 messages on the talk page, mainly on the same issue, seem not to have been responded to at all, not one. I also think WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP would be quoted repeatedly at me if I took them to AfD. Boleyn (talk) 05:27, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• How long have I been saying we should just drop all coverage of footy players? EEng 03:46, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

and K-pop and MMA and... Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 03:56, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

...and beauty pageants and music genres and pornstars and Ru Paul. Yes. Not worth it. Oh yeah: "professional" wrestling. And video games. EEng 04:00, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

What about the champion Cristiano Ronaldo? Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 03:59, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• @Basalisk: That's well and good to a point, but NPP is overwhelmed because of articles like this, and the backlog on "pages needing work" is out of control. I encountered this individual last year over an unsourced BLP and too time out to write a polite & detailed message explaining how to cite, why to do so, the advantages of using draft space, etc. I am FAR from the only person so have done so, but he simply ignores us all and continues, creating more extra work for everyone. As of today's newsletter the new page backlog is currently at 18,511 pages. If we stop to find references and add them not from someone new who doesn't know better or doesn't know how, but from a serial offender who sometimes does it multiple times in a day, and is only one of many such offenders, what're the chances we ever catch up? This is someone abusing the system to do things badly in hopes that "someone else will do the work." I'm not arguing that he be banned or blocked, but that someone at admin level impress upon him what we've all been trying to say only to be ignored or reverted. JamesG5 (talk) 10:44 pm, Yesterday (UTC−4)

I agree, JamesG5, there have also been concerns raised several times as to whether all the articles being created are notable, so that would be a lot of work for another editor, that would possibly be a complete waste of time. With this editor often creating several articles a day, I would have to spend hours a day on these articles. It would also encourage them to write even more. I really just want them to stop writing articles like this, preferably just taking a complete break from writing new articles for a while, and not removing clearly applicable inline tags. Some communication would be helpful too. Boleyn (talk) 15:50, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Pinging Fastily, Dennis Brown and Sphilbrick since these admins have dealt with User:Durneydiaz in the past. Unless we can persuade Durneydiaz to change their approach it may be time for admin action. EdJohnston (talk) 19:34, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree. It needs to be made clear that creating many BLPs without actual reliable sources is unacceptable and puts a load on the rest of us. My recollection is that there is a comprehension concern here, possible CIR. Can't remember if I've linked WP:Communication is required to them or not before, but they need to read it. They have exactly zero article talk edits, and zero editor talk edits except for removing templates from their own talk page in 2010. Communication is non-existent, even with three blocks. Two blocks were reduced without any input from them, so WP:ROPE isn't working. In previous cases like this, the only thing that has gotten someone to TALK is to indef block until they do, then any other issue they may have becomes more obvious by their responses. Strong medicine, but we don't have a lot of tools for cases like this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I hadn't seen that link before, but I would draw Durneydiaz's attention to it: If you are getting multiple complaints on your talk page or on an article talk page about your editing, you are expected to either stop the action that is causing the complaints, or discuss it with the community of editors at the appropriate venue. This could be a formal noticeboard, an article talk page, or on your talk page. Ignoring the complaints is not an option. Boleyn (talk) 20:36, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I wrote it two years ago specifically for cases like this, so it is still fairly new. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:42, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support block. They are quite simply taking up more time than the value of their BLP-violating contributions are worth. If the editor had not edited their talk page at all I would be willing to assume AGF and that they didn't understand how talk pages work but in this case their reverts of warnings and removal of personalized notes that new page patrollers took time to write out for them show clearly that their outlook is fundamentally incompatible with the collaborative nature of Wikipedia. jcc (tea and biscuits) 20:38, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment As a bit of background, I spend a fair amount of time at OTRS, and deal with a lot of people who are unhappy about an article being deleted on notability grounds. There are a fair number of people with some decent accomplishments who don't quite meet WP:N. We don't have a space problem. While I'm far from ready to open up to any article on any subject, I would be supportive of a move to weaken the notability hurdle. That said, this is not the place to propose such a change; I'm simply pointing out my mindset. While I'd like to make it easier for subjects to be included, I'd like to see us tougher on requiring sources. We sort of have a policy that a BLP has to have a source. I'm sympathetic to NPP being overwhelmed. If we believe that a BLP needs to have at least one independent, published reliable source, why can't we simply declare that an article in mainspace (not draft space or user sub page) can be immediately deleted and any editor who creates three such articles after being warned can be blocked. A draft or user sub page isn't in violation until it is submitted for review. If an editor submits a page for review without a valid source it counts toward three strikes and you're out. Not out forever, maybe a two week block. If the community doesn't feel comfortable applying these rules in general, can we at least agree to apply them to the specific editor. If so, I'd set the counted zero and not block until three more failed attempts.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:59, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
  • That is creating new policy and ANI isn't the place. Even if we could, this person has never communicated. Ever. If you can't get them to agree to something, it is moot. Like I said, TWO of their blocks were reduced in length without them saying a word. (one of those was mine, and I was talking into stepping back and allowing the 1 week block to be reduced). Allowing them to not communicate has gotten us exactly no where except a metric tonne of unsourced articles. I don't think you can compromise with someone who won't talk. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:11, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support block based on their editing since this ANI was initiated. This includes:
• Continued refusal to communicate, despite being asked by several editors here and on their talk page. I didn't even find any edit summaries.
• Taking the articles I'd moved to draftspace, and moving them back to mainspace with no attempt to fix the issues (which probably wouldn't even have taken them long), e.g. [55]
• As I didn't want to edit war by moving them back to draftspace, I added {inline} and {blpsources} tags to some of the articles moved back. 190.161.34.95 is an IP who has edited only over the last couple of days, and only on the 3 articles Durneydiaz has moved back from draftspace to mainspace, and only to remove the tags I applied, repeatedly. I'm calling WP:DUCK. After editwarring on the tags several times, the IP then added one inline source [56], which is a positive step, but that is not sufficient for a blp and the IP has continued edit warring to remove the tags on Facundo Barcelo, Maximiliano Sigales and Matías Fissore.

I see no signs this is an editor who is going to respond to anything less than a block, and I don't know if a ban on creating new pages until they communicate is possible, but I would certainly advise Durneydiaz to stop creating new pages. Boleyn (talk) 06:46, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Racist deletionism, fresh off a block

A Great Catholic Person (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is fresh off a 1-week checkuserblock for abusive editing while logged out. Now we have abusive editing while logged-in [57], [58] which wouldn't be so bad in isolation but the explanation in the context of being right off a block, appears to indicate WP:NOTHERE. Toddst1 (talk) 05:54, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

The two deletions are arguable (ie should be taken up on the July 12 talk page by A Great Catholic Person on its merits if they want to pursue it), but the explanation that is linked actually uses a double negative, and based on AGF, I think we should extend the benefit of the doubt until it is proved that it is more than the grammar that is being mangled here. I'd be happy to intervene if I'm proved wrong about this. So ping me if it happens. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:44, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Although AGCP's English is not the best, I think their comment is clearly racist. This editor has some very odd problems.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:51, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Oh dear, I have to agree, it's hard not to read that comment as racist. I'd say User:A Great Catholic Person has some explaining to do. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:05, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

On the surface it does look like it. But if you read carefully, there's actually TWO double negatives, which negate BOTH the racist comments. So technically there's nothing wrong here. Whether that be extreme dumb luck, or very careful structuring of the sentence, to play with Todd, I don't know. The English seems fine to me. Also, I'm not sure where the evidence is of the disruptiveabusive editing while logged out that User:Bbb23 mentions (I couldn't find anything using the search at WP:Sock. The explanation is plausible enough; must be a dozen people who's mobiles, etc., pick up my wireless when they are at my house. I'm also unsure why a perfectly reasonable unblock request was ignored for a week, with pretense made that they weren't addressing the block issue - which they did do. Though perhaps the block evidence tells more of a tale. Presumably as the alleged racist statement was so bold, there'd be other evidence - but I don't see any in a cursory search. Nfitz (talk) 18:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I didn't say anything here about "disruptive editing". If you're referring to the sock block, it was straight-up vandalism, and the user's responses were not ignored. Here's the comment we're talking about in this thread: " I don't understand why Wikipedia has added more content about Indian things, and really do not like it. I... just do not, and would have reverted the pending edit. I also do not think Indians are not really notable, too." The first two sentences are absolutely clear, contain no double negatives, and are clearly racist. Only the last sentence has a double negative (one) and taken in context elaborates on the racism. It's not so much the user's English is obviously poor; their wording is often awkward and either the product of a bad writer or a non-native speaker. My involvement in this started because of the user's explanation for why he used rollback and then reinstated the edit they had reverted - something like, "I just wanted to start the process over". I still don't have the slightest idea what that means.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:26, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I think your involvement in this started before that, given you blocked them. Sorry, abusive editing, not disruptive. Where is the evidence of the sock/abusive editing? Yes, they are both double negatives. The first one basically says they "don't like that they don't understand" ... and the second one basically says that "they don't think Indians are not notable"; if that was racist, it would have said either "don't think Indians ARE notable" or "think Indians are not notable". Both are double negatives. And I have to suspect, very carefully crafted. Nfitz (talk) 19:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Apparently, not having a clue about what you're talking about doesn't prevent you from making rather bold assertions. That includes your comment to Doug below.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:57, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I really don't see how that unhelpful and unnecessarily rude comment further's the discussion. I know some admin's think that they no longer need to follow WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, or WP:5P - but that is not true. Why not simply point to where the abusive editing is ... oh hang on, I realised the sock search is for the archives, not the current ... hmm, nothing there either. I assume it's under the IP then. Can you just point to it, rather than simply being rude and obstructive? It's quite clear there are two double-negatives; I don't see how that is a debate; the question is it because their English is so poor, or was it carefully crafted just fishing for a reaction. If the latter, I'd be keeping quiet too - that's half the fun. Nfitz (talk) 01:08, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

User also seems to refuse to address the issue by deleting the ANI notice original poster posted on the talk page. Alex Shih^Talk 15:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I've just posted to their talk page saying it appears they aren't going to defend themselves and asking why I shouldn't block them. It isn't as though they haven't been editing today.[59] Doug Weller talk 18:19, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller And they deleted your question, along with George Ho's suggestion that they cooperate and be more polite, with the edit summary "Leave me alone. I'll start over." [60]. If there have been no previous problems with this editor, is it at all possible that this is a compromised account? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: There's no indication the account is compromised. The edit summary when removing the two Talk page messages is consistent with what I said above: "Leave me alone, I'll start over". The user should be blocked. It should be more than a week (the sock block). The only question in my mind is whether it should be limited or indefinite. I'd like to hear Doug's view on this, though, rather than my taking unilateral action.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:48, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

WP:NORUSH - this has only been open a few hours. Given them a few days, if no damage is being done. Nfitz (talk) 19:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

You might want to take a closer look at WP:NORUSH, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether we should expeditiously deal with editors who express racist views and then blatantly ignore the community's request for explanations while they continue editing the encyclopedia. I'd say that it's you, and not Bbb23, who needs to re-examine their position in this matter, as you seem to be defending the editor in question while wearing blinders as to the obvious meaning of their comments. I suggest you forgo any additional comments, as you're not helping them any, or yourself for that matter. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:12, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Ah, you are correct, misremembered that one - sorry about that. However the point still holds. Let the person sleep on it; if there's no ongoing damage to the project. I'm not wearing blinders - I'm simply noting that there are two double-negatives - and quite frankly, that's a lot of luck, or very carefully constructed. However, I'm not defending - or judging - what I'm - asking for - and rather confused why such simple questions aren't answered, is where is abusive editing while logged out documented (which IP?)? Or better yet, is there another example of such racism? PS. And why were his unblock requests simply ignored? He addressed the issues. I can see that it perhaps might take a couple of attempts, as he wasn't explaining very clearly at first, but it should have sat there for 6 days untouched. That's not right. Nfitz (talk) 01:09, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

There is one double negative, more than adequately explained by Bbb23's analysis. You're bending over backwards to accept the best possible interpretation of the editor's words and actions, which also happens to be the least likely one. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:03, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

It's not difficult to read the first two sentences as another double negative. But if one were to read it as racist, it would be so completely beyond the pale, that I'd think there'd be other examples out there too. I'm not accepting - I'm waiting for further evidence, and for Bbb to point to the IP. Nfitz (talk) 04:42, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

"Having an open mind is a virtue, but not so open that your brains fall out." James Oberg, quoted by Carl Sagan. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:05, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Ed - not sure why you can't simply pretend to believe in WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, or WP:5P4. Frankly, whatever odd stuff is going on with this user, pales to experienced editors who believe the central pillars of the project don't apply to them. Nfitz (talk) 07:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Checkuser evidence is not going to be made available, so you'll remain dissatisfied if that's what you want. —SpacemanSpiff 04:51, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not even aware there was checkuser evidence! Of course I don't expect to get the checkuser evidence. Just the surrounding discussion. And not even a quote of what was said that was so terrible. Was it racist? Was it editing WP pages? For all we now, it was something as mundane as editing as an IP and working in their own userspace. Nfitz (talk) 07:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• That comment is blatantly racist. AGF is not a suicide pact; we don't need to contort ourselves to try to find any possible alternative interpretation to one sentence when the first two make the meaning clear. This behavior and these comments are not conducive to building an encyclopedia and do not conform with expectations of editors' behavior. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:09, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

It's so out of character though. I did dive through their edit history. I could see nothing even remotely comparable. If anything the opposite. Given he's edited in the area of the sub-continent historically, I wonder if it was just very badly worded, or a bad joke. Either way, I don't think we can block a user who has self-identified as autistic, on what could have been a one-time blunder. Nfitz (talk) 07:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

So after blanking several attempts to communicate, the user goes on to edit (although constructively) like nothing ever happened. I'll try to ask again for the user's input on the clearly racist remark. Alex Shih^Talk 05:28, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

They were around for all of 8 minutes since the ANI think started. Given there's no ongoing issues, and the racist comment is so utterly out of character (assuming it is racist), I wouldn't read too much into it.

• • It saddens me because this editor has been very helpful in cleaning up SCHOOLCRUFT, but I agree the comments about not liking stuff pertaining to India is blatantly racist. I also agree that AGF is not a suicide pact, but could offer a possible AGF explanation: They are relatively new. Perhaps they don't realize this isn't us-Wikipedia. It's weak, but as I said, they have been helpful. The bit about give them time above is garbage. We block preventatively. Give them a week off now, not later. They can defend themselves in an unblock request. If there is any hint if the racism after the block clears, an indeff is in order. --John from Idegon (talk) 05:43, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
    • @Bbb23: I agree there is no reson to wait. I don't think a week is sufficient given that even after the week's block for editing logged out they continue to just delete warnings without communicating. I see that their explanation for the sock block is that their friends used their IP address but there's no indication AGCP is going to secure their router. I'm also bothered by the statement " I will even edit constructively anonymously because I have done that as an IP address before." I'm going to block for two weeks with a note that if the router isn't secured and there is more editing from the IP, or if the editor continues to fail to communicate with other editors, an indefinite is likely. Doug Weller talk 06:11, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
      • Hang on - give them a chance to respond. They've only been around for a few minutes since this started. The edit in question is one-time, completely out of character. The editor has self-identified as austistic, it could just be a huge blunder. It could be a bad in-joke, given the projects he's involved in. Given how messed up the last block was, with people clearly ignoring a reasonable block unrequest, and then claiming they weren't addressing the issue, but ignoring the bit where he had addressed the issue, and then ignoring completely for a week the response that directly addressed the issue. There's no indication of ongoing damage. There's no pattern to this. It's not even related to the previous block - is anything necessary until we understand what that comment meant? 07:37, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Nfitz, I have to ask in all seriousness, are you on drugs? This thread has been open 26 hours; the reported editor deleted his notification of the thread. There are documented incidents of multiple racist comments. This is not the only thread where your remarks are so far off point as to be obstructive. Seriously.... please. If you cannot follow a discussion, don't comment. --John from Idegon (talk) 08:01, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Fortunately I am on drugs ... for the blood pressure. There's was absolutely no reason to question my sobriety. I have no idea why some people think it's okay to be so uncivil and bully here, and toss out one of the five pillars. This is once again completely disgraceful and abominable behaviour. I've been asking for confirmation of additional racist comments. I haven't seen any. It's possible (or even probable) I've missed something. Why not simply point to the additional racist comments? And then you'd simply say "but have you seen this", and I'd say "hang them then", and it would be a simple exchange. Nfitz (talk) 08:17, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I read his unblock requests. Not once did he respond directly to suggestions about making his router secure. Sure, he said he wasn't tech savvy, but I couldn't tell if that was about the CU comment or what. In any case, if he was serious he'd ask how he could stop his friends. Saying he will teach his friends how to use his IP address constructively isn't enough. Saying he will edit logged out doesn't help. Having a history of deleting rather than responding to warnings didn't help. He made multiple edits during the 16 hours after he deleted the ANI notice. He also deleted mine and George Ho's rather than respond on his talk page and here. None of this shows an editor who is willing to listen. Doug Weller talk 08:10, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Is one responsible for what other people edit though, from their own devices? If they were mobile edits (where ARE all these edits I keep asking), do they fit the pattern of his edits? I don't think it's reasonable to hold responsible for IP editors, particularly friends. Simply block the IP, not the editor. The explanation made perfect sense. 16 hours? ANI notice came at 2:18 pm Eastern ... oh wait, why does that come from you, not Todds? Oh ... I missed the earlier 01:55 am notice. Ah, that's a bit different then. Still, seems very uncharacteristic. I can't help think we are missing something here. Nfitz (talk) 08:29, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

If we are, he had plenty of time to explain himself and several requests. Doug Weller talk 08:51, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

New user playing admin

Jhonleo22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been going around "playing admin", he left a block template on my and another user's talk page [61] [62] (note the misleading signature in the second example), has removed a BLPPROD from a page that it clearly applied to, with the edit summary "admin" [63], and his userpage is an exact copy of User:Widr. Simplexity22 (talk) 09:50, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Clearly up to nothing useful, so blocked per WP:NOTHERE. Widr (talk) 10:01, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Hang on. Why is User:Simplexity22 referring to an editor who's been here over 2 years as a "new user"? Why has the only attempts to communicate with him in that time, by people dropping templates on his page, rather than talking? Perhaps he now thinks that is how communication is done? Why is User:Widr applying the block, when they are WP:Involved? How is an indefinite block necessary, rather than something progressive? I'd suggest removing the block, communicating with the user which no one appears to have done before, and seeking wider consensus. Nfitz (talk) 18:32, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Signature forgery is the clearest example of bad faith I can think of. That's why it almost never happens. The user is welcome to explain in their block appeal how that was an innocent mistake. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:50, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

In all WP:GF that doesn't look like signature forgery to me; for it would also be date forgery! It looks like a horrific cut-and-paste blunder/incompetence to me. Not sure what the motive would be of Jhonleo22 for one to assume otherwise. Nfitz (talk) 19:36, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

As I said, they can appeal. If they are successful, an unwarranted block will be lifted with nothing adverse in the block log. It's a messy business sometimes, and a user making a "blunder" of that magnitude shouldn't complain about a short-term inconvenience. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:30, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

If I were an admin looking at this situation, I probably couldn't miss the history of the page that involved the "Admin" comment, and the other account there. I'd suggest this is not a good cause to get hung up on. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 20:36, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Nfitz, how is Widr involved? I did a quick look and did not see anything Widr had done that would make them involved. ~ GB fan 19:06, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's because Jhonleo22 copied Widr's userpage, which apparently makes Widr involved. In reality, no it doesn't; you're only involved if you have interacted with a user before, which Widr has not. (non-admin closure) SkyWarrior 19:10, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Close. It's because Widr blanked Jhonleo22's userpage, referring to it as vandalism (doesn't that violate WP:AGF?), and then blocked them. That doesn't pass the sniff test in my mind. Perhaps one might argue they are not involved; but I don't think you can argue that they may be seen to be involved - which is the best practice. Nfitz (talk) 19:30, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Still not involved, implied or otherwise. Widr blanked Jhonleo22's userpage and then immediately blocked them. Given how quickly these actions took place (within the minute), it can be considered a single administrative action. As they have not interacted with Jhonleo before all this, Widr is not involved, and I doubt no one will see it as if they are.

Also, blatantly copying another user's userpage is vandalism, or at least can be construed as such. SkyWarrior 20:11, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Let's be careful. I believe some new editors have deliberately copied someone else's user page because they liked the look and feel. It can be done (1) acceptably, if one is careful to remove anything that doesn't apply, it can be done (2) carelessly, intending to do it right, but failing. and it can be done (3)vandalistically. (1) is fine, both (2) and (3) are problematic, but (2) deserves a trout while (3) deserves a strong warning at least.--S Philbrick(Talk) 22:05, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Absurd. Clearing a user's page or having your user page copied doesn't make someone involved in any way under policy. Involved necessarily implies you have a stake in the outcome, such as blocking a user you are in an edit war with on an article. Involved doesn't mean you've cross paths or you've done some maintenance tasks before. Otherwise, admin would be paralyzed and couldn't act at all. If that was the case, you could easily game the system by copying every admin's page just to make them involved so no one could block you. If I actually block you, that isn't "involved" in such that I can't block you in the future, for instance. You are stretching WP:involved way beyond the scope of that policy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:19, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure words like 'absurd' are constructive. It still has the appearance of being involved to me; though digging deeper, a block is probably the right move. Indefinite does seem a little overkill to me. But on the other hand, the behaviour has been very bizarre, and perhaps it is best to force them to communicate. I also note an indefinite block on the Tagalog wiki. Nfitz (talk) 01:31, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

After taking another look at this, admittedly "new user" wasn't the best choice of words, but my point still stands. None of the things in my report on their own warrant a discussion here, but the combination led me to believe Jhonleo22 was acting in a bad faith attempt to try and mislead people into thinking he's an admin. I did attempt to communicate with them on my talk page in a now deleted comment, where I explained why I didn't violate WP:3RR, [64] I had not noticed the other problems at that point. After receiving no response after a few hours, I took a look through the user's contribs and saw the "admin" removal of a deletion tag, which happened after my reply to him. I concluded, perhaps hastily, that he wasn't going to communicate with me, and decided to bring this up here. Simplexity22 (talk) 22:45, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I've taken another look too. Not quite sure of the process - but the end result doesn't seem grossly inappropriate. Some very bizarre edits, even if trying to give the benefit of the doubt based on language and experience. Nfitz (talk) 01:31, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

User continues to remove sourced material

Hello,

Joobo (talk · contribs) doesn't stop whitewashing the article on Germany's far-right politician Frauke Petry by removing the well-sourced assertion that Petry cited German law wrongly; a sample edit is

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. Explaining the mistake to the user has no effect; instead, Joobo falsely states that the inclusion of such material may violate WP:BLP (naturally without citing the specific guideline which my edits would go against, since such does not exist). A strategy is deployed which I met among various WP users who seemed to have a political inclination, namely a mass of meaningless verbal garbage is produced which is then taken to be an argument, even though it does not make logical sense. On the grounds of that, the article is then being reverted, with a remark to check the talk page (or whatever page it was deposited on) for a reason.

I should mention that this user has been noted for strange behaviour before, see for instance here. --Mathmensch (talk) 11:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Finally, I would like to add that said user edits the Wikipedia full-time as it seems (see Special:Contributions/Joobo). --Mathmensch (talk) 11:23, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Also see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive346#User:Joobo.2C_User:_Peter1170:_reported_by_User:Nagle_.28Result:_Both_warned.29 --Mathmensch (talk) 11:32, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) The BLP-claim is bogus (article statemen is sourced to FAZ) and seems to be a substitute for WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Kleuske (talk) 12:07, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• I will comment on this whole situation amply to give a broad and detailed overview of the situation.

Firstly, I never had any contact with the user Mathmensch before the quarrel at the BLP of Frauke Petry occured. By reverting the edit I followed the necessity of WP:BLPREMOVE. However, it is incessantly argued by the opposite that the content would be sourced and that reverting it would be "bogus" as user Kleuske now wants to state. I gave already detailed explanation to why (here on the BLP talk) the phrasing is not accurate and needs to be removed respectively rewritten as I did. It is about a hypothetical legal application of a law. The statement by the BLP cannot be ultimately labeled as "false" simply as under such circumstance statements can neither be qualified as right nor as wrong in an ultimate definition. This more detailed argumentation by me was basically ignored on the talk, simply by once again pointing out to the "source" which was claimed to be absolutely sufficient. My hint that the source also only evaluates the possibility of a wrong legal statement by Petry was simply ignored as well.

It seems that Mathmensch cherishes personally negative views on this BLP as well as on others he might categorize as morally unfit, why? Mathmensch wrote on my talkpage concerning a discussion with me and another user regarding the article Donald Trump this. It was about a revert by me which was adequate, explained and backed by other users on the main talkpage of the concerned article (see), however Mathmensch seemed to have a problem with this and calling it a "monarchy" like, weeks after the situation was already handled. He was/is obviously angry with the position by me and other users about the question of the inclusion of the point which was raised in the talk. To highlight the antipathy of Mathmensch for particular subjects respectiveley his approach to editing and other users a simple look on his user page is enough to read this:

 "I decided to put this up since there may be U.S. citizens here, who chose Donald Trump as their president.
 I have a foolproof criterion to sort out who is morally or intellectually compromised: Namely those who really think they're superior because of their race or ancestry. If I find out you think that way, I will react properly.
 I would like to express my solidarity with all Jewish, African-American, Hispanic and even Muslim citizens of the U.S. (although I am critical of all religions, including Islam). I am a white German, but I don't feel particularly superior to anybody else (at least not on the grounds of race), and I want to live without racism. I do not want to be associated with bigots of my people who are cruel and idiotic.
 I am sick and tired of seeing black people being ashamed because they are black. The greatest pianist of all times was black. The greatest living mathematician is an ethnic Chinese, while the greatest mathematician of all times was Jewish." 

This user apparently in any case he feels someone edits against his personal beliefs is automatically somehow against "him" or Wikipedia etc. will start to act inappropriately. He has as he says "foolproof criterion to sort out who is morally or intellectually compromised [...] If I find out you think that way, I will react properly." These statements really speak for themselves.

Furthermore I also like to point out to Matmenschs linking to an ongoing discussion on an admins talk me being involved he apparently found out by checking my history. The discussion was basically most likely initiated due to a misunderstanding of another user who viewed some of my edits and got misleading impressions. After i gave simple and detailed explanation concerning the edits brought up nothing anymore happened or was complained, neither by the original user who raised the point at the talk nor by the admin himself. It was eventually just about the behavior regarding me and the other user of the situation. Now Mathmensch for whatever reason jumped on the train at the discussion again without even trying to understand of what the situation there was actually about. Apparently he saw my user name and the topic and immediately tried to defame me, caliming out of nowhere I would be "counter-productive". Now Mathmensch is trying to scratch all kinds of apparent negative stuff together to portray myself in a somewhat bad light. That is also highlighted by the incomprehensible point by him that I would be editing "Wikipedia full-time". All my edits are reasonably explained, if needed sourced and adequate to WP standards and criterias. Any minor disputes, that naturally occur on Wikipedia are absolutely common and without any consequence so far since my unblock. Actually -

it looks like the same is tried to be done here once again as already it was some time ago when another user violated WP guidelines. It came to a dispute also at the ANI- and me and other users explained our ratio behind the reverts we did — finally it was being ruled in favor for me/us and against the other user, who in a similar nasty way tried to link aspects together and claim of POV etc. without any ground, simply as an automatic anthipathy occured due to content disagreements. Mathmensch has apparently an issue with me, and now wants an "admin become active in this case?" in order to "... react properly". This is everything but acceptable WP:Civil behavior.

It rather looks that Mathmensch, by reading his user page entry, has some very strong personal beliefs, and in any case something goes against that he is acting just like he does here. I hereby urge for an adequate solution to this absolute inappropriate behavior of Mathmensch as well as a review of the situation on the concerned page of Frauke Petry as the now by Kleuske reintroduced phrase of "false" is wrong and violates BLP rights, as the statement by Petry technically never can be labeled as "right" nor "false". --Joobo (talk) 14:09, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Note: I put an ANI notice on the user's talk page, but it has been

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shortly after it was placed there. --Mathmensch (talk) 14:54, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, after I was noticed and I myself recognized the request here I removed it, so what now?--Joobo (talk) 16:37, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Discuss it on the appropriate talk-page? Just a suggestion... Kleuske (talk) 16:41, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Ah, yes... The statement in question was sourced to an article in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, which is, for all intents and purposes, a reliable source, as required by WP:BLP. Hence the revert. Kleuske (talk) 16:42, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

As I already pointed out repeatedly, it is not that the taken source it not "realiable". What was written in it was meant like that. It is simply a classic case of Non sequitur. You technically cannot call this statement as ultimately "wrong", but also not as ultimately "right". However, such a definite application was done — this is inaccurate and violates BLP.--Joobo (talk) 17:20, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

There are also problematic edits regarding Immigration to Germany, such as

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, where a completely unsourced statement was included into the article; Joobo claimed that in 2014, there were 8 million foreigners in Germany, whereas the source only gives numbers for the year 2011. --Mathmensch (talk) 18:42, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

That's two years ago and stale. Digging up dirt is not productive nor conducive to any resolution. Discuss the issue at hand instead. Kleuske (talk) 19:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

To the contrary, the edit cited above supports the viewpoint that the given user displays the long-term behaviour of editing in a non-neutral manner, which seems to be of direct relevance. --Mathmensch (talk) 05:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

It is, to put it mildly, unbelievable in what an inconsiderate manner and how recklessly it is pointed out to edits I did 2 years ago — and you Mathmensch blatantly lie about it. You write "where a completely unsourced statement was included into the article; Joobo claimed that in 2014, there were 8 million foreigners in Germany, whereas the source only gives numbers for the year 2011." The source I included was from 2015 and published by a German major newspaper ([65]). The newsarticle stated the number of migrants in the Federal Republic of Germany for the year 2014 according to official numbers of the federal register; it was not as you fallaciously claim from 2011 and the number used was also correct. This blatant lying is qualified as a Personal attack under Wiki policy as it states Personal attacks are but not limited to: "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence." --Joobo (talk) 19:44, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I mixed up the difflinks. I meant

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. --Mathmensch (talk) 05:41, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Possibly it is also adequate to look at a

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. --Mathmensch (talk) 06:02, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Joobo now

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despite

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. --Mathmensch (talk) 09:43, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

You ever heard something of giving a named reference? Apparently not. If you check the diff you gave here you would see that I included the source "< ref name="SZ" / >". So, I supplied the source for the number I included. The other source was referring to the distribution. You are either completely oblivious to Wikipedia editing, or once again blatantly lying about my actions. Regarding your last sentence. The admin referred to the situation between and another user, not between both of us. The admin was right that my mentioning of Wikihounding was incorrect in the case between me an the other user. Yet, in this case you are without a doubt hounding, as you follow my talk page, edit there, follow my edit history and engage in the actions of concerned articles. I give you one advice, stop doing what you do here as it just pulls you down more and more.--Joobo (talk) 09:55, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Sioux City related issue

Please look at Sioux City Iowa page. User with IP added content consistently reversed by another user. IP got blocked. Can you please unlock IP so that she can continue to participate in what may be a valid discussion. The issue is that the page may be professionally managed -- dissenters have been either driven away or blocked from this page before. 24.217.216.63 (talk) 13:12, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

There's definitely a mess. Material was moved from the talk page to an archive and then un-archived by an IP. I'm re-vetting the archiving and keeping anything in the archive that wasn't active in the last 30 days. Then I'll look at the active discussions and article history. —C.Fred (talk) 13:56, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I looked at many of the talk page contributions by 2600:6c40:1800:1f39:ec49:9398:4f0a:ef7f (talk · contribs · WHOIS). The last several could easily be viewed as harassment. The very last one before their block was so severe that an oversighter removed it entirely from history. Based on that, the block should stand. Talk page discussions must remain civil and without baseless allegations against other users. —C.Fred (talk) 14:04, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Harassment might be an overstatement. It is if one applies WP:AGF. Either way though, shouldn't there at least have been a mention on their talk page before a block? What was the last "severe" comment? It's difficult to opine, with out any info. Other comments seem pretty mild. And the IP's case does seem to have substance. There does seem to be a consistent attempt to remove any negative content about Sioux City - which seems ironic given how dreadful the place sounds in the lede, with that stuff never mentioned again. Also, why is the page locked to all editing, if the issue is solely IP-related? Though clearly the page needs work, there are most lists than text. Half the page is a list of notable people from Sioux City - gosh, there seem to be more notable people per capita (non of which I've heard of) from Sioux City than New York City! I'm surprised there isn't a list of parking lots. There's a note in the photo caption that the downtown is Indigenous, but not other relevant mention of First Nations in the article. Nfitz (talk) 18:58, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm the harassed party here, although I would term it extremely bad faith editing. I've been repeatedly accused of paid editing by the blocked IP and the block was completely in order. The editor immediately above is so far off base (in multiple threads I might add) that his comments can be safely discounted. The OP in this thread seems to be calling for a block review of User:Ks0stm's block and he should be notified. I'm not convinced that all the IPs involved here are not either meat or sock puppets, but there is obviously no way to show that. There's been no substantive discussion since my initial post at the talk page, and none of the named editors have weighed in. Hopefully, this thread will bring more participants to the thread. I'd say the latest comment there from the editor in the 2600 IPv6 range is most likely block evasion, but I'll gladly leave that for those with the right skill set to decide. I cannot blame the other editors there for running to the hills. If the range blocked IPv6 editor comes back with the same attitude, I'll be joining them. --John from Idegon (talk) 06:24, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

User:JJBers

I modified the section heading to "User:JJBers" from "Request intervention! Comment" per WP:TPO. Generic section headings that could describe 99% of the discussions that cross this page are useless. If I could discern exactly what behavior policy is alleged to be violated, I would include that too, but I don't want to presume anything. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:11, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Despite my efforts to be civil and courteous to the same editor as before, it appears rather clear that JJbers has no intention of ceasing deliberate targeting of my edits and reverting them. Although the 3RR rule has yet to be violated I realize it is inevitable. At issue now is the article Westport, Connecticut. In view of the past and in order to protect myself and to show good faith I voluntarily promise not to engage that editor further nor will I continue any further edits of that article until after this matter is resolved. I had hoped to peacefully resume my editing and contribute to Wikipedia, but it will wait. That JJbers is unrelenting in disrespectful behavior towards me makes no sense. I do not want another editing war!!!

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Westport,_Connecticut&oldid=790698999
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Westport,_Connecticut&oldid=790694008
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Westport,_Connecticut&oldid=790686776

— Preceding unsigned comment added by StephenTS42 (talk • contribs) 15:30, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - given that both parties are currently topic banned from editing another city in the same state, this seems to be a "Connecticut" issue. Maybe an extension of the tban to involve any Connecticut location? Primefac (talk) 15:39, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

What... I have no clue why I'm even here. I got reverted saying I didn't explain my edits, and while one of my edits was breif, he did revert that. He reverted the individual edits that I fully explained what I did. I even said that reverting him. The second and third edits isn't even from me, it's you reverting me. Here is my edit summaries where I removed the content that was reverted:

• From this edit: "infobox corrections" I removed the push-pin map (Which he reverted back, and I'm not even going to bother reverting back), and changed the title from New England Town, to Town, creating a pipe link.
• From this edit: "article cleanup" I removed a bunch of spam panoramas to save time to load the article, plus one was enough, plus I removed a copy and pasted section from another article. The part he reverted was me literally moving a image slightly lower in the text, to match the image's context. That was it.
• From this edit: "no, villages aren't synonymous of the town" I believe this is adequately explained. Villages aren't what the town is known for, unless it's a very large attraction. They have their own section.

I sincerely don't know why this is a issue. What I believe this is, is a over-blown reaction to something minor at best. —JJB^ers 16:41, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

It's possible this is just an overreaction, which started with the tban and/or personal animosity. I'm not necessarily advocating changing the current restrictions, just followed the edits. Primefac (talk) 21:39, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Edit conflict issue

Deiced to separate this, because I feel it's a unrelated issue to the original point of the discussion. —JJB^ers 21:14, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Given that StephenTS42 is apparently unable to sign their comments, and has twice posted here today in a way that removed other's comments, I'm starting to think that it may be a CIR issue. TimothyJosephWood 16:42, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

To: User:Timothyjosephwood Why did you remove my comment? I did not remove anyone's comments! What are you trying to instigate here? Yes, I forgot to sign one comment, but jeez I made a mistake and a few moments later I did sign it; then someone else removed it... but that is not grounds for CIR. Can't you focus on the subject at hand? JJbers just admitted to reverting 3 of my edits! What does that make me? The bad guy? ——→StephenTS42 (talk) 17:07, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

It's the other way around, you reverted three of my edits. Then I reverted you back. —JJB^ers 17:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Timothy, if this is the edit you are referring to, it could have easily been an edit conflict. It happens. WP:AGF? Also, he only posted once here (minus the filing of the ANI thread). Plus, CIR is not a reason to remove comments. Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 17:27, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

@Callmemirela: He's been here much longer. Maybe 15 or 20 edits here. —JJB^ers 17:34, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I meant on this ANI, not in general. Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 17:58, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I did AGF, the first half dozen or so times this happened and was addressed, and explained. TimothyJosephWood 18:01, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

For those unaware: [66] [67] [68] [69], and that's just in 15 posts at ANI. TimothyJosephWood 18:08, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Again, easily could have been an edit conflict. The user even says so with this edit back in June. Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 18:45, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, thus CIR. TimothyJosephWood 20:32, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

How does an edit conflict lead to CIR? Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 22:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

He has moved on to reverting my edits of West Haven, Connecticut. It doesn't matter what subject I edit this thing stalks my work, my contributions, then edits and reverts them all! Doesn't anyone else see what is going on here?——→StephenTS42 (talk) 01:40, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Do not call another editor a thing. --Tarage (talk) 02:31, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Proposed indefinite block for Ccxtv94

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hello Wikipedians I'm imposing an indefinite block for Ccxtv94 (talk · contribs) for continued inserting spamlinks and edit warring persistently I have a question for Admins to make an possible indefinite block for spamming on Putlocker can you make an indefinite block for now --66.87.68.167 (talk) 19:47, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I think either go to WP:AIV if it is vandalism, or wait for a reply here if it isn't. —JJB^ers 20:56, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Blocked indef for spam. Not here to build an encyclopaedia. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 21:02, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User commting disruptive editing on Jurassic World: Fallen

This user name Aaimran has removed a sourced material of Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom twice, once under the IP address 47.185.217.3. This is what the user said to me on my talk page.

"First of all, I was not vandalizing Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom. I was just doing what I thought was necessary. No need to tell everybody what the actors were doing in the ocean. No need to spoil the news."

But there is no rule for spoilers and the one he kept removing is source material. Someone might want to do something about it. BattleshipMan (talk) 23:20, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• I linked the guidelines and gave a medium duty warning. For now, I think that is enough. They are new, they need to learn these things. Linking to the policy on their talk page is often a good way to do it. Then, they can be held responsible for knowing (or they should have known) and they can't claim ignorance because you've politely linked the relevant guideline or policy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:24, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Nuke all pages created by 16pedia2

Hello can you please delete all hoaxes on User:16pedia2 subpages for this can you help me to delete all hoaxes on 16pedia2 subpages for now because it is possible to speedy delete all hoaxes for now? --66.87.68.167 (talk) 00:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Heh, I'm going to need more than just a request. Can I have some background information? I see a list of subpages here - I'm happy to help once I understand what the situation is :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:50, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

97.98.86.66 reinserting same content in multiple article, editwarring

• 97.98.86.66 (talk · contribs)
• Readds content multiple times [70][71][72][73][74][[75][76][[77][78][79]
• Brags about evasion of ip blocks [80]

Darmokand (talk) 02:04, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• Would suggest an IP block.Casprings (talk) 02:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
• Would also suggest protecting the related articles: Natalia Veselnitskaya and Rinat_Akhmetshin. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:05, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
• If it came to a IP block, temp PP might be needed on Rinat Akhmetshin,Natalia Veselnitskaya and Trump campaign–Russian meeting depending on if there is follow through on the block evasion threat. Although with the trump meeting article, it was only early on that they were editing it today. Diffs on that one are [81] [82] [83]. WikiVirusC^(talk) 03:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
• Why are we shutting down the article when there is one editor that is pushing content without discussion? Casprings (talk) 04:40, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Continued vandalism by a blocked user

Not long ago User:Wtamdcoulls received an indefinite block for persistant vandalism of Parental alienation syndrome, claiming the article impacted his family. Today, July 16, the newly minted User:Towtamdc started block deleting the same material and giving the same edit summmaries. I believe this may be sock-puppetry. Note the similarity of the usernames. He needs to be stopped.  — Myk Streja ^(when?) 02:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

ducked. Alex Shih^Talk 03:46, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Possibly offensive remarks by 101.167.39.149

User:101.167.39.149 has been leaving a fair number of comments on talk pages and edits in articles that have an air of anti-semitism. There is a fair amount of anti-semitic activity coming from this account between the conversation over at Talk:Chris Cornell and that at Talk:List of Italian-American entertainers this user seems to have a fascination with Judaism as some sort of denigrating mark. Here are links to some of the incidents: Old revision of Talk:List of Italian-American entertainers, Old revision of Talk:List of Italian-American entertainers, Old revision of Talk:Chris Cornell, and Old revision of Talk:Christiana Capotondi. Snood1205 (talk) 03:16, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Seems pretty much WP:NOTHERE, but I don't know how helpful ip blocks are at stopping this kind of thing Seraphim System ^(talk) 08:22, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

JohnThorne - years of copyvio, plagiarism, OR, etc

JohnThorne (talk · contribs) is a hard-working editor who I'm sure is trying to improve our coverage of biblical subjects, in particular articles covering chapters of the Bible, creating about 375 articles.[84] He is a sysop on the Indonesian wikipedia.[85]

I first encountered him in October 2011 when I found him adding copyright from an unreliable source.[86] My latest was this week at Fiery flying serpent[87] where I reverted him with an edit summary saying "Copied from obsolete sources, some copy/paste without attribution." Unfortunately almost six years later he continues to have problems with original research, copyright and plagiarism and at times NPOV. He has had a number of warnings/discussions about the issues and he always answers politely but then seems to carry on without taking account of them. An example of a typical discussion is here.

Some examples of warnings: [88][89] [90] [91] [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97] from myself, User:Lucas559, User:DGG, User:Diannaa, User:Crow and User:Alephb Also see Various issues] from User:Jeffro77 endorsed by User:Fayenatic london.

A pov edit that User:Editor2020 reverted in May[98] and that he restored the next day.[99] I reverted it 2 days ago. It said "Tower of Babel Stele (604–562 BCE, time of Nebuchadnezzar II) depicting the "Tower of Babel" (Genesis 11) But the linked article just says that the stele is a representation of the ziggurat Etemenanki which might be the inspiration, even the actual, Tower of Babel, but not that it is definitely the Tower. Doug Weller talk 05:51, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

As I said to him some years ago: "That it's PD doesn't mean it's reliable. What the article should have in short quotes, and they are permitted by fair use. You know the major commentaries better than I do. I'd guess you have a number of them to hand, for you cite some in other articles. " For the ones that are in fact PD, and just need attribution, the attribution should be added, but someone who knows the literature needs to add appropriate modern sources. Biblical studies is drastically different than it was one or two centuries ago, and any earlier source is of primarily historical interest, or--for the major theologians--of interest for its own sake. Even with the last century years, the interpretations have changed radically more than once, and will presumably keep changing- partly due to differing theological assumptions, historical methods, additional texts, and archeological data. (More generally, everything in WP based upon the old EB and Catholic Encyclopedia and the even earlier PD sources, needs to rewritten. _ DGG ( talk ) 07:20, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Widespread violations of NPOV and NOR by NOTHERE IP user

This report is about a user with a static IP, ‎174.71.243.93 (talk · contribs), who has been active for the past 14 months and is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. I became aware of this user when I warned them for this talk-page rant, which reads like a white supremacism pamphlet. A quick glance through their contributions is instructive. They have made a handful of acceptable edits, but the vast majority have constituted POV-pushing original research antagonistic to minority groups. Examples include edits that are

• pro-Apartheid
• racist
• anti-Semitic
• racist and anti-Semitic
• homophobic
• sexist.

They seem to have a fixation on all things Nazi and a fondness for the German army of World War II. Even when a given edit doesn't target minorities per se, there's no attempt whatsoever to write neutral, encyclopedic prose: [100]. I posted a level-4 warning, but it occurred to me that waiting for the next offense seems a bit pointless. A topic ban seems unworkable, given the wide variety of topics involved. A site ban would work, but a simple NOTHERE block would be a lot simpler. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 06:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support community ban - Clearly not contributing constructively to the encyclopedia. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:34, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
• I've blocked for 1 year - there's no place for such blatant racist, antisemitic, homophobic and misogynistic bigotry here. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:12, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

User:Enamul Hasan Ferdous

I have recently noticed that the user Enamul Hasan Ferdous has been vandalizing the pages of various universities such as University of Oxford, University of Cambridge. I tried reverting some edits but it's going out of control. Therefore I suggest action be taken against him. Darius robin (talk) 08:38, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

The best place to report clear vandalism/spam is WP:AIV; I've filed a report there and an admin should be around sometime soon to drop the hammer. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:42, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

@NorthBySouthBaranof: Since you are a rollbacker, could you please help revert his edits. Darius robin (talk) 08:49, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I think I got them all. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:09, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Ok thanks. Darius robin (talk) 09:15, 16 July 2017 (UTC)