Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Incivility between Autodidact1 and The Rambling Man

• User talk:Autodidact1#MOS=Manual_of_shitty_typography
• Autodidact1 (talk · contribs)
• The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

I am an uninvolved administrator but I note that TRM has had arbcom sanctions before (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/The Rambling Man) and as I'm unfamiliar with this territory and whether any sanctions are presently applied to them or the other involved user, I would like input from other administrators about how to proceed here -- or if another administrator would like to take the reins, I would be totally fine with that.

Both editors seem to be engaging in incivility that crosses over the line into personal attacks, and the behavior I see from TRM (one example among many in this thread) in particular is exactly the behavior mentioned in the arbcom case ("[TRM] is prohibited from posting speculation about the motivations of editors or reflections on their general competence.") so it seems very likely that some action is needed here under WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, but I'm unsure what may need to be logged at WP:AE as a result. --Chris (talk) 00:40, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

That restriction was vacated in January 2020. You can review any active restrictions against an editor at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions. Any violation of an Arbitration Committee-imposed restriction would normally need to be discussed at WP:AE rather than WP:ANI, but given that TRM's only active restrictions are interaction bans with people who aren't Autodidact1, you're probably in the right place after all. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 00:45, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Maybe someone could give us a pointer as to what that two-monthlong bitchfest is even about? Just to provide context? —valereee (talk) 02:45, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

The original cause appears to be Autodidact1's dissatisfaction with MOS:FRAC's advice to use {{frac}} for fractions. He or she is of the opinion that "1/2" is preferable to "1⁄2" and is willing to ignore the MOS to enforce that preference. Compounding the situation is Autodidact1's tendency to be sloppy in doing so, changing (for instance) "6+2⁄3" to just "2/3" and "210+2⁄3" to just "2/3". Not helping matters is TRM's letting his understandable frustration with the foregoing get the better of him. Both editors could certainly stand to be less confrontational in their attitudes. Deor (talk) 04:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Deor: I haven't paid attention to the squabble, but "MOS:FRAC's advice to use {{frac}} for fractions" is a somewhat inaccurate summary of our guidelines. In fact MOS:FRAC says that for science and mathematics articles {{frac}} is discouraged, and MOS:MATH agrees with that discouragement. One of Autodidact1's recent frac edits (although not one involving TRM) is Trisomy X, which could be reasonably interpreted to be a science article under this guideline. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:27, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

As the writer of that last one, which is how this dispute got to my attention...I can't say I appreciated the edit to shrink the size of the fractions on a disability-related article (that is, one where poor accessibility to visually impaired readers is particularly ironic), nor have I generally been endeared to Autodidact1's odd, pushy style of copyediting articles that brush against the Main Page to his preferences. (I believe he drew the attention/ire of EEng recently for insisting Wikipedia:Contact us change 'via email' to 'by email', one of his particular bugbears.) I do not, to say the least, think TRM has made the worst moves of the pair here. Vaticidalprophet 11:09, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Actually I believe I displayed uncharacteristic restraint in that particulat interaction [1], but had I reviewed his contribution history he'd certainly have received a more severe correction. Nothing inspires me like pseudosophisticated stylistic pretension. EEng 02:39, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy to move on, after all I have reached my limit on being called a liar there many, many times. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 10:21, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

• It does seem very concerning that in refusing the adhere to MOS, Autodidact1 is also changing correct information to incorrect information. Autodidact1, I'm thinking you need a little more self-teaching? I'm wondering if maybe Autodidact1 needs to just stop "fixing" fractions.

Re: the incivility on both sides...ugh, TRM. Really? Your restriction was lifted less than six months ago. I get it that you're frustrated, but that discussion looks like you were just baiting him. You could have just provided the silly diff before the sixth time he asked. And AD1, instead of calling someone a lying SOB, maybe disengage and ask someone else to help you find the errors if you aren't sure how to find them yourself. For all TRM's faults, most of what he calls an error actually are. If he's reverting these kinds of edits, which are supposed to be changing only presentation rather than content, there's probably a reason. —valereee (talk) 11:44, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Why is there often so much heat over minor stylistic changes? I swear experienced users getting into spats over cosmetic issues is right up there with nationalistic disputes when it comes to heat generated. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 11:48, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Wait till you hear about cosmetic issues... by bots. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:55, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Sayeth Ritchie333:

One area the hit and run editor gets involved in is the formatting ... The quality of work has increased in some areas, which makes it harder to contribute without good knowledge in the subject matter and sources. Fiddling with the formatting seems to be a suitable alternative passtime.

EEng 05:07, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

These stylistic changes were apparently also introducing factual errors by changing correct information to incorrect information. —valereee (talk) 11:54, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, have you noticed the series of personal attacks levelled at me, being accused multiple times of being a liar? I corrected factual errors and asked the other user multiple times to stop and they responded with personal attacks and attacks on the MOS. Having said that, this is a storm in a teacup, neither me or the other user appear to have considered this a "civility" issue, it's just someone else trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Now the other user has stopped reintroducing the errors, that's me done. And no, the restriction was not lifted six months ago, that was explicitly related to DYK. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:59, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As well as the outright errors TRM (rightfully!) complained about, the edit to trisomy X served to replace the fractions with yet another form of fraction (not sure what Autodidact1's preference is, then, aside from "not the kind the MoS requests" -- is this just trolling?) that not only is outright deprecated for all articles (contra the "mathematics articles can use another form") but causes accessibility problems on account of how tiny the text renders. Broadly speaking, I am not in undying love with the MoS, but I think it rises above "shitty typography". The only edits more frustrating than copyediting to make an article worse because-MoS are copyediting to make an article worse in contravention of the MoS. They weren't even consistent throughout the article, he left the one in History untouched... Vaticidalprophet 12:02, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and he introduced errors there too -- rendered 164cm/5'4" as 172cm/5'7.5". Vaticidalprophet 12:08, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Going to bed, but I think there might be further issues with Autodidact1's conduct regarding copyediting, in addition to these repeated cases of anti-MoS fractions introducing errors. A warning on his talk demonstrates an incident of not only edit-warring to change BC/AD to BCE/CE in contravention of MOS:ERA (pretty much one of the most uncritically great parts of the MoS because of its role in stemming this kind of warring) but making grotesque personal attacks against people and their religions when called out for it. Vaticidalprophet 14:48, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I've dropped a warning on their talk page for personal attacks. I am also of the opinion that MOS wars are largely pointless and have no opinion on the underlying matter, but repeatedly calling another user a lying son of a bitch (even if you use "SOB") is just not ok. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:29, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox, there's a second and probably more important issue w/re: introducing errors in aid of "fixing" things that aren't actually broken. —valereee (talk) 19:11, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I just saw those comments on his talk page and that was clearly not ok. I don't consider the matter closed or anything, I just haven't dug that deeply into the rest of it. I'm also hoping they will find a moment to comment here to address some of this before doing anything else. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:24, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Copy-editing as a battleground

While The Rambling Man was clearly being an ass on Autodidact1's talk page, trying (successfully) to provoke a reaction, Autodidact1 has editing problems of their own, as a skim through their contributions shows:

According to Autodidact1:

• Using "via" instead of "using" is "vulgar": "Replaced the vulgar preposition 'via [sic]' with a descriptive verb, 'using'."
• Using "...he singled off Welch" instead of "...he singled against Welch" is "vulgar": "Replaced vulgar 'off [sic]' with appropriate, 'against'.
• "as well as" are vulgar words in Fargo, North Dakota: "In two paragraphs, replaced three vulgar words, 'as well as [sic]' with the correct one."
• They are an ornithological expert, and their knowledge is vital to the accuracy of I, Tonya: "That's not a 'parakeet [sic]'. Sloppy journalism. Looks more like a conure." and "An obviously careless description; not a parakeet. Do your research.", as well as this elaborate rationale for their edits.

Copy-editing is not a crusade against the vulgar forces of darkness, Autodidact1, it's a way to clarify communication and presentation of ideas.

(I know it's not within this noticeboard's remit, but I wish it were possible to ban Autodidact1 from constantly misusing "[sic]".) --Calton | Talk 01:09, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Anyone of common sense who is not part of a conspiracy to revert my edits would agree with me -- well, ain't that a fantastic line. Vaticidalprophet 02:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

He certainly knows a lot about vulgarity. EEng 02:41, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I was not being an ass (good personal attack though!). I was repeatedly asking the user to show some level competence by being able to recognise their own error-strewn contributions. I was asking the user to recognise we have a MOS and that, where possible, we should follow it. WP:CIR. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 06:09, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I was not being an ass

Spare me. Hell, spare all of us the act. How many times did Autodidact1 ask you an extremely simple question that you point-blank refused to answer? Five times? Six times?

I was asking the user to recognise we have a MOS and that, where possible, we should follow it

It's kind of hard to say that you're trying to teach someone something when you refuse to tell them what it is that they're supposedly doing wrong. You were trying to provoke him, and, frankly, you two deserve each other.

(good personal attack though!)

Descriptive language. Describing your behavior. --Calton | Talk 06:19, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

AKA Personal attack. Sure, but I couldn't care less. And if an editor who refuses to acknowledge MOS (which I told them about) and can't find their own errors, that's a lack of competence. Frankly, this, like that user's edits, is a gross waste of my time. As usual this place is full of people who think they're making a difference but who really aren't. Get to a conclusion and people can get on with their lives. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 07:49, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

IMO, there's no problem-in-the-ANI sense with your conduct here -- I would call it suboptimal, certainly, but I don't think it demands any sanctions. I think it's more just the general frustration many writers feel when people come around and tinker with articles for the worse, and that any good admin should be able to recognize it (and in turn that this is why so many people demand high-level content creation from admin candidates). I think Autodidact1's conduct is the important one here, and that there seems to be a sustained pattern of conduct problems stemming from copyediting. Vaticidalprophet 11:12, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Well only one of the two people who were dragged here was detrimentally editing Wikipedia, causing damage and disruption to our content and readers, and that individual has carried on doing it during this ANI. Meanwhile, some users feel obliged to take the chance to level personal attacks at me: instead of at the disruptive user's talk page where he personally attacked me half a dozen times, do it here instead! Anyway, as I said, unless someone wants to actually do something about the ongoing disruption to the encyclopedia, this thread is now a proper dramaboardz timesink. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:25, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

AKA Personal attack. So you think an accurate description of you is a personal attack. huh? Sounds like you could use a little self-perspective. --Calton | Talk 07:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

It's a personal attack. Obviously. Bye now. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 12:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

That's a strange new meaning of "obviously" I was previously unaware of. Your eccentric definition might explain your blathering on about "obvious" errors on User talk:Autodidact1. --Calton | Talk 10:50, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Are you still here? Deary me. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:10, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Now look, let's not get into it here. Everyone knows that TRM is one of the biggest ass-ets we have around here, and does a lot of good work. And speaking as one ass-et to another, TRM, you could have handled the situation better. But the only actual problem right now is that Mr. Autod is going around pissing on everything, hardly if ever improving things and frequently screwing them up. EEng 02:46, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

  Agree. I've tussled with TRM before but he was only mildly snarky this time, with provocation. The only behavior in need of action here is Autodidact1's. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:46, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

  No comment from him here yet, but... Vaticidalprophet 09:23, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

===proposed: Autodidact1 may not make edits against the MOS===

• Support as proposer. Since Autodidact1 seems to just be ignoring this, and since they seem to lack competence in doing so, I think we need to prohibit them from making edits against the MOS. —valereee (talk) 13:49, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
• Alt wording: Autodidact1 (talk · contribs) is banned from making stylistic or grammatical, or WP:ENGVAR changes to any article, broadly construed. This wording is similar to that TBAN imposed on Anthony22 (talk · contribs), to avoid haivng to judge if the edit violated MOS. They clearly have a habit of labeling styles as "vulgar" or otherwise improper, and some edits, such as Special:Diff/1017446054 at Brent Strom about MOS:FRAC, inadvertently changed factual information. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:06, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Rambling Man accused me of making errors to an article that I edited without any evidence or without a link to the supposed errors. He reverted my changes because they violated the MOS. He persisted in accusing me of making errors when I only changed the converted fractions on typographical grounds. He has now assembled a posse of editors who want to ban me entirely. I've made over 5,000 edits and only a handful have been reverted. Almost all of my edits are usage corrections or improvements to prose, such as rewriting sentences to remove clichés. Rambling Man is guilty of character assassination; he's the editor who should be sanctioned. My edits improve articles, not change facts or introduce errors. Autodidact1 (talk) 02:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

If, at this late date, you still think your edits don't change facts or introduce errors[sic], then there may be a WP:CIR block in your very near future.[sic] I suggest you move quickly to show that you recognize where you messed up article facts.[sic] (Hint: It's explained in this thread.[sic]) EEng 04:14, 26 June 2021 (UTC) [sic].

• The problem with "may not make edits against the MOS" is that no one on earth (or anywhere else, for that matter) has absorbed all of MOS -- it's beyond human capability, so there would need to be a warning issued for each new kind of transgression. I think Mr. Pizza's idea is better, though I fear it may be overbroad. A third formulation to consider might be Autodidact1 needs to cut out the half-baked pedantry. EEng 04:14, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

  Valid point. Maybe just a warning for disruptive editing, along with an explanation that introducing error in an attempt to "fix" what isn't broken is disruptive. At this point I think we could give an only warning, as Autodidact1 seems to be rejecting the notion that this introduced error. —valereee (talk) 15:29, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

  Ironically, all those giving me a hard time on this fail to note that in the very diff provided above, my summary was "actually changing the meaning of the sentences". If that wasn't clear enough for the user making the repeated errors to find, I call WP:CIR. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:44, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

  Ironically, all those giving me a hard time...

  And what makes you think anyone missed it? What makes you think that one bit was sufficient? Also, how, exactly, is it "ironic"? Is it like rain on your wedding day? --Calton | Talk 07:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

  I'm bored of this thread and the pointless point-scoring here. Have fun, I'm going to improve the encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 10:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not going to bold an oppose, but there is so much to the MOS (and frankly, some of it is unhelpful or even arguably wrong) that I'd be happier simply blocking them for CIR if they continue to make factual errors without any recognition that they are doing so. Black Kite (talk) 15:42, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Agree. Introducing factual errors while making stylistic changes is harmful, blockworthy incompetence, so much so that I'm even going to pass up this opportunity to give TRM a hard time–a difficult but justified sacrifice. Levivich 07:10, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• The problem with a blanket ban on MOS edits is that it's treating a symptom: yes, it'll stop the half-baked pedantry in that particular area, but it's no the only space where Autodidact1 exercises their unsourced certainty. Take their edit-warring at I, Tonya

• 07:14, June 22, 2021‎ Autodidact1 44,746 bytes +10‎ →‎Critical response: That's not a "parakeet [sic]". Sloppy journalism. Looks more like a conure.
• 20:46, June 23, 2021‎ Autodidact1 44,746 bytes +10‎ An obviously careless description; not a parakeet. Do your research.

Their response on my User Talk page It's a conure of some type, and if you looked at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conure you would agree with me, assuming, of course, that you actually saw "I, Tonya", which I doubt...".

However, the very lede of Conure includes The term "conure" is used primarily in bird keeping, though it has appeared in some scientific journals. The American Ornithologists' Union uses the generic term parakeet for all species elsewhere called conure, though Joseph Forshaw, a prominent Australian ornithologist, uses conure.

So this is someone who not only practices unsourced, self-assured pedantry, it's self-assured pedantry that that's contradicted by the source that they claims supports them. That's a WP:CIR issue at work. --Calton | Talk 07:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• Looks like Autodidact1's got a case of WP:ANIFLU. EEng 17:37, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

  Well that's easy when you're not being asked to explain anything nor being told that there's a definitive approach to your edits going forward. This case will be toothless and nothing changes right now. What's the proposal? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 21:11, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

  Ok, then... Autodidact1, do you recognize that many of your edits created problems and introduced errors? EEng 21:21, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

  The user continues to edit without responding here. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 09:06, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

• I commented at User talk:Autodidact1#Warning: collaboration is required (diff) and will review any claims of further problems. Johnuniq (talk) 10:09, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
• I thought the username was familiar when I first saw this thread - it's come back to me. I actually referenced my only interaction with Autodidact1 in my answer to Question 3 of my RfA (Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress?) The disagreement again centred on their dislike of the word 'via', and they used unnecessarily critical edit summaries to describe the use of the word here ("pretentious") and here ("lazy" and "stupid"). They did not respond to my talk page post here, in which I pointed out that the dictionaries and style guides that I turned to had nothing negative to say about the use of the word, and that it seemed entirely natural to me. I'm disappointed to see that they have continued to remove it, and to pour scorn on people who use it, based only on what appears to be a personal dislike of the word. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:31, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
• The user just repeated what they wrote here on their own talk page. This shows a clear lack of understanding of the issues at hand and an apparently complete lack of competence. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:24, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

  The user is still in denial about the errors they introduced (to whit: My edits improve articles, not change facts or introduce errors), along with their contra-MOS edits. Someone needs to explain explicitly as it's clear that competence is a serious problem here. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 07:16, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• We've already got several retired equerries late of H. M. Stationery Office wandering about the project grumbling about dashes and vulgarities and typographical monstrosities. We don't need another pompous Sir Scoldalot. He's shown himself stubbornly incapable of recognizing his own fallibility so I think an indefinite block is now in order. [sic] EEng 09:38, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Via con Dios? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:44, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• So the same person who berates other editors over word usage issues would have us believe that My edits improve articles, [sic] not change facts or introduce errors is good English? Sorry Autodidact, but if you're going to be a supercilious, self-appointed grammar cop, you're allowed zero mistakes of your own. I'd support an indef for competence reasons. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 05:57, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• Well, looks like Autodidact's ANIFLU has turned into ANICOVID. Can we please end this is [sic] an indef until he ackowledges the issues with his edits? EEng 04:32, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
  • ackowledges [sic]? Vaticidalprophet 13:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
    • Perhaps they really are sic [sic]... The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 14:31, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposal: indef block

Sometimes the community shows way too much patience in the face of patently obnoxious and disruptive behavior. This is one such case. The above thread (and its diffs) contain ample evidence that Autodidact makes careless mistakes in article space, refuses to follow the MOS, responds to criticism with juvenile insults and whataboutisms, and pulls a vanishing act when faced with the prospect of being held accountable. This is not something that we should tolerate any longer.

• Support as proposer. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 17:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support (indef block as an ordinary admin action, or community site ban; either way) for long-term disruptive pedantry, even after this thread was opened, with apparently no hope of change. See, e.g., this July 1 message as an example: [2]. We don't have time to follow and check their edits, at some point it just has to end. Levivich 17:52, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support a Site Ban at this point as a net negative to the encyclopedia, and who wouldn't stop digging when reminded of the First Law of Holes. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:46, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support either indef or site ban. EEng 05:37, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive edits on Nubia (character) article by Benicio2020

Over a period of the last 3-4 weeks, Benicio2020 and I have been involved in a conflict that is starting to know no end. Beginning on 31 May 2021, I have made 14 edits to the Nubia (character) article, most or all in the Nubia (character)#Long-term publication absence which is the particular area where Benicio2020 and I have have been having a conflict.

Benicio2020’s first edit on 19:38, 31 May 2021 was a simple revert, that deleted all of multiple interconnected points, in which he/she 1) claimed that it was all original research 2) neglected to contribute any discussion beforehand 3) did not attempt at salvaging anything or 4) did not attempt to add any references (which were already in the article or related articles that were wikilinked-to) that were relevant.

After a simple un-reversion by me, my very next edit on 03:55, 3 June 2021 showed improvements on my part with the addition of 3 references for a medium-sized paragraph with less than 100 words. This was followed up by Benicio2020 the very same day (3 June) in a series of 6 edits over a period of 4 minutes, beginning at 13:57 going to 14:01. Some of these edits included what I would call rather petty quibbles over language choice, including an objection to my using the word “full” in a quote “a full twenty years” in reference to a publication gap for the subject’s publishing history (actually, 19 years and 11 months), although I later did make this more technically correct by further qualifying the statement. It was also in this series of 6 edits in one edit on 13:59, 3 June 2021, when Benicio2020 1) started a series of contentions of his/hers over a particular item of material by calling into question the reliability of the cited source for that material and 2) deleted additional material without any explanation whatsoever.

In the next edit I made, on 18:05 4 June 2021, I changed the source from the one Benicio2020 objected to, to the primary source which, for this intent and purpose, was the best possible source. Benicio’s next edit on 20:15, 4 June 2021 was 1) a simple reversion 2) with the rationale that I was introducing opinions into the article and sourcing them to the new (primary) source, taking contention with the exact same material 3) in which he/she continued to delete accompanying material without any rationale, whatsoever.

Since that time, Benicio has undone that work a total of 5 more times (including 3 simple reversions) without once ever having demonstrated at all that he/she has done any fact-checking on the particular item of contention, despite on 22:06, 4 June 2021 on the article’s talk page, my calling to his/her attention on 22:06, among other things “Not even an hour-and-a-half went by between my making that edit and you 1) deleting some material for no stated reason, whatsoever, and 2) making a deletion without any demonstration of consulting a source to determine its relevancy” (something that he/she has continually repeated to do). I reminded him/her again on the article’s talk page on 19 June 2021 that an editor must fact-check, linking to Wikipedia’s fact-checking policy and citing that she/he “h[ave] the responsibility of fact-checking Wikipedia's content” before he/she can start to make a contention about the applicability and relevance of a reference to the material it supports in the article.

Benicio2020 has made repeated claims that I am injecting opinions, but how can somebody claim material in an article supported by a reference is an opinion if they have repeatedly and consistently refused to demonstrate that they have consulted that reference, themselves?

Also, after my 18:05 4 June 2021 edit, and after I made the explanation that I mentioned on the article’s talk page on 22:06, Benicio2020 made 3 more reversions over the next 24 hours (curiously enough, stopping just one edit short of the 3-revert rule), all the while completely neglecting to engage with my discussion on the article’s talk page.

Throughout all 5 of his/her reversions/edits since my edit on the main article on 18:05 4 June 2021, not only has Benicio2020 refused to demonstrate, every single time, that he/she has consulted the source to be able to argue the relevancy and applicability of the source to the corresponding material in the article, he/she has also, in all 5 edits, deleted other material for which he/she has failed to articulate any reason for deleting.

Can I please have an administrator’s oversight on this?

ETA: Sorry. Forgot to sign. QuakerIlK (talk) 05:58, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

This is a fairly simple case of QuakerIlK continuing to add their opinion to the article, in various phrases, while sourcing those phrases to a comic book (a primary source). I removed it because it is Original Research according to WP:OR. QuakerIlK has ignored me when I pointed out that you can't add your own personal interpretations of primary sources to articles. Benicio2020 (talk) 16:28, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

This is a fairly simple case of Benicio2020 failing to demonstrate him/her having fulfilled their basic editorial responsibility of undergoing basic fact-checking to determine whether the material a source supports in an article is actually an opinion. Benicio2020 fails to grasp that visual evidence is more proof of a person's appearance (and cultural identity association) than mere text is. If I were to use somebody else's written opinion (a secondary source) on what the character in question (Euboea) looks like, THAT would only be an opinion. Visual proof is more authoritative, *especially*, in this case, if it is a primary source. Additionally, Benicio2020's rationales for reversions/deletions are inconsistent. On top of that, Benicio2020's reversions and deletions include deletions of additional material, beyond the debated appearance and possibly resulting cultural identity association of Euboea, for which he/she has failed to ever even once articulate a rationale.

I could be more helpful and more directly supply evidence to illustrate that the material in the article is accurate, making more irrefutable than ever any disagreement, but according to Benicio2020's rationale, which is faulty to begin with, there isn't anything I can provide OTHER than opinions, (because he/she actually wants text opinions from secondary sources to prove what the appearance and/or ethnic looks of Euboea are), which directly contradicts more objective and irrefutable evidence ever being applied, which puts me in a lose-lose position in Benicio2020's eyes, no matter what I do.

I think with an administrator's proper oversight, this could be solved very easily, but I have already spent too much time and energy on this matter to further invest more time and energy only to have the contribution I have made be negated for no good reason. If I can be provided with either an administrator's written advice as to how to proceed in order to properly support the material in the article OR if Benicio2020 would care to realize that he/she is putting me in a lose-lose situation because he/she fails to understand when/why different categories of sources are applicable, then I am more than happy to proceed. QuakerIlK (talk) 23:14, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

If I were to use somebody else's written opinion (a secondary source) on what the character in question (Euboea) looks like, THAT would only be an opinion. Visual proof is more authoritative, *especially*, in this case, if it is a primary source This is absolutely the opposite of how Wikipedia works; we use established, reliable secondary sources. OP is a pretty clear case of an editor failing to understand WP:OR and pushing their interpretations of source material (or interpretations/claims sourced to fan wikis) in the article. Suggest QuakerIlK familiarize themselves with the relevant policy, because they are fully in the wrong here. Grandpallama (talk) 15:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

"[A]bsolutely the opposite of how Wikipedia works", Grandpallama? Your statement is both reductive and extreme, (in other words, wrong), and whereas you absolutely fail to quote any specific policies, I will not fail to do so. As per Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources, "Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. Although they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations". Furthermore, as per Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources, "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources." Additionally, that section states "primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia", and "[a] primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts". (The primary source I ended up using that got reverted/deleted 5 times by Benicio2020 was an excerpt from a issue of the main series of the Wonder Woman comic book, published by DC Comics. It is 100% relevant to the article and the publisher is DC Comics, which was, at the time of the publication of this source in particular, A Warner Communications Company.)

As for the material, itself, fine. This shouldn't be necessary, but perhaps because of the audience, it is. Perhaps visual proof would help more than a bunch of text. Benicio2020, are you really going to claim, in light of this visual, that it is only an opinion that Euboea's “looks suggest perhaps East Asian or Hispanic ethnicity, rather than Caucasian ethnicity”? This is not an opinion, it is “straightforward, descriptive statements of facts”. Frankly, in light of this visual evidence, I could easily issue a stronger, less qualified statement.

If you don’t believe the context/sourcing, here is a video proving that this is from the stated source. [3]

Again, this is not how Wikipedia works; this is a textbook example of original research with what increasingly appears to be some WP:IDHT thrown in for good measure. Your interpretation of this character's appearance is just that: interpretation. If you continue to dig in your heels on this, prepare for the incoming boomerang. Grandpallama (talk) 00:22, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

By the way, since you are quoting WP:RSPRIMARY, you might want to pay attention to the text immediately below what you quoted (that you seem to have conveniently ignored), which is relevant in this situation: All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. The fact you just tried to edit war this back in while the ANI discussion is ongoing is unacceptable. Grandpallama (talk) 00:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Your accusation that I am edit-warring is utterly inappropriate - Benicio2020 was the one who started repeatedly reverting my edits, plus I was the one who initiated this complaint and I made that edit a little while ago only after going through great lengths to provide greater transparency regarding the sourcing. We're still waiting for an administrator to weigh in on this, aren't we? You also fail to grapple with the actual material and the related sourceing at all.QuakerIlK (talk) 00:55, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

You are wrong on pretty much all counts, and Grandpallama has explained the relevant policies to you correctly. Please just drop it. There is nowhere on Wikipedia where you can argue about the apparent ethnicity of fictional characters. If you want to include this, you have to cite a secondary source; posting your own interpretation of a primary source is against policy. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:02, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Does being "wrong on pretty much all counts" include the fact that not only Benicio2020 (at least 5 times) but now also Grandpallama have made reverts that delete, in addition to the debated material, material for which no rationale for deletion has ever been articulated by either one of them? That is part of my complaint. QuakerIlK (talk) 04:02, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

More supporting material, including 2 new sources, have been added to the article. QuakerIlK (talk) 05:10, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Two editors and an admin have now explained why this attempt to insert original research is inappropriate. Please quit trying to force it in. If you have other edits you want to make, that's fine, but continuing to edit war to include your personal opinions is going to lead to sanctions. Grandpallama (talk) 05:42, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

You completely ignored the fact that I introduced new sources and material and all you did was a simple revert. Your rationale for making the revert you just did is 100% baseless because neither you, nor Benicio2020 nor NinjaRobotPirate has weighed in at all on either the newly-introduced material or the newly-introduced sources in the article section. QuakerIlK (talk) 06:11, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

So, at this point QuakerI1K received a 24 hour block for edit warring. That should be a clear message that yes, you are edit warring QI1K. Once your block lifts, take your comments to the article Talk page, but do not resume attempting to force your edits into the article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:39, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

In addition to here at ANI, this has already been discussed at the article talkpage, at QI1K's talkpage, and at Benicio's talkpage. If we are advising QI1K to return to the article talkpage, they need to understand that it isn't an invitation to continue to push this particular edit; further attempts to argue that their interpretations and unencyclopedic language should be included in the article are just going to result in an escalation of sanctions. Grandpallama (talk) 19:31, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

The Hand That Feeds You, Can either you or NinjaRobotPirate please explain to me why once I added to the article a secondary source (something that both Grandpallama and NinjaRobotPirate said was what I needed to do) supporting the material in question that Grandpallama reverted that edit without either a review of the source or discussion of it on here by any involved party? Can anybody explain to me how I was being charged with edit-warring and was blocked and not Grandpallama? Can anybody explain why the reverts that have been made on the article undid the category additions I made ( Black characters in animation and Category:Black people in comics ), and why those categories remain deleted from that article and why none of the reversions of the articles by any of the other editors, other than myself, involved in this dispute, included rationales for the removal of those categories and why the categories remain removed/deleted without absolutely any rationale whatsoever as to why those removals/deletions persist? QuakerIlK (talk) 07:13, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

This is not the place to resolve content disputes; you need to use dispute resolution for that. You were blocked because people were complaining about your edits here, and I saw you edit warring. Grandpallama hadn't made any additional edits on the article at the time I blocked you. Life is unfair like that. It also doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong when you're edit warring. This is explained in the policy itself. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:56, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

NinjaRobotPirate, can you please explain to me how Grandpallama edit on the Nubia (character) page on 05:38, 28 June 2021‎ is not edit-warring? They claimed in that edit's rationale "Explained by two editors AND an admin that this is inappropriate.", yet this most recent material to which Grandpallama was referring to there that I added at the time which included a new secondary source that supported the material, which is what both you and Grandpallama said was needed, was (and remains) content that went completely undiscussed and untreated at all by any of the involved editors/administrators here in any venue/article that I can see in all of Wikipedia before I was blocked? None of the involved editors here put forth any effort whatsoever in discussing it.

Was I guilty of vandalism in that edit? Was I guilty of inflammatory comments? Where is the disabusal process from you on this series of actions from my edit - "Failure to communicate[6] – this can be either with editors (e.g., lack of suitable warnings or explanations of actions)".

I can admit that throughout this process I have been overly verbose, which is generally advised against in these sorts of processes. (It does mean that I am trying, though.) But as I have continually tried to make improvements on the material in question by further qualifications and articulations with an increasing body of sources that supports the material I add, the language directed against me by both Grandpallama and The Hand That Feeds You, that I "force" edits in, escalates, as does Grandpallama's warning of sanctions against me.

If I continue to make improvements, which I have done consistently, that means that I realized that, to a certain degree, I was wrong in the past, but can you or any other involved party here admit to having made any mistakes throughout this whole process and consider that I might be being punished unfairly or that the article is being prevented from being improved by me? So far, I have seen no indication of that. QuakerIlK (talk) 09:36, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm not going to repeat myself. I think the problem here is that you refuse to hear what people are telling you. If you continue down this path, the end result is an indefinite block. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:12, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Pretty sure NinjaRobotPirate wants to be done with this (so my apologies for pinging him), but a few of these claims merit response, especially since they are directed at me.

• can you please explain to me how Grandpallama edit on the Nubia (character) page on 05:38, 28 June 2021‎ is not edit-warring I reverted you a grand total of three times. The second time I reverted your edit, it was because a discussion was ongoing here (which I very clearly explained/referenced above, in this very thread), per WP:STATUSQUO. The third time I reverted you, it was to again restore a policy-compliant version of the article after you were blocked and the problems with your edits were explained to you. I will not put words in NRP's mouth, but I don't think most admins would see those reversions as disruptive; on the other hand, after you initially inserted your problematic material, you reverted eleven times. Do you really not see the difference?
• I added to the article a secondary source (something that both Grandpallama and NinjaRobotPirate said was what I needed to do) supporting the material in question You absolutely did not. You added a secondary source that supported a claim about the ethnicity of the actor who portrayed the character in live action, which you used to continue the attempt to push your original research into the article. At no point did you provide any sort of sourcing that supported your original research. The fact that you're not getting this is alarming.
• Can anybody explain why the reverts that have been made on the article undid the category additions I made Sure. You made a bold edit of which 80% was highly problematic. It's not the job of other editors to dig through that edit and preserve the "okay" parts; if you don't want them reverted, don't bundle them together with material you have been told is contentious. It is not the job of other editors to clean up after you.
• content that went completely undiscussed and untreated at all by any of the involved editors/administrators here in any venue/article that I can see in all of Wikipedia before I was blocked If you haven't read WP:IDHT, you need to. Your content was discussed on the article talkpage (pretty calmly by Benicio2020, despite your constant needling). The fact that you don't like what other editors said about the content not being compliant with policy and that it needs proper sourcing is right there, on the article talkpage and on your talkpage and now at ANI. Please start listening and stop arguing.

If you had engaged in good faith on the talkpage, you probably would have avoided the first block in your long editing career here. Instead, you chose to bring this to ANI, which resulted in shining a light on your edits. If I were you, I would walk away from this before editors start scrutinizing some of the similar stuff you've added to other pages. Grandpallama (talk) 14:10, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Your last 'point' on here is a clear-cut case of Hounding. QuakerIlK (talk) 12:47, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

No, it's a point that even a casual glance at your editing history shows you have a pattern of adding unsourced material and opinion to articles. If you want to accuse me of harassment, go ahead and file another ANI. Grandpallama (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

The "similar stuff" to which you referred in your 14:10, 30 June 2021 response has now been changed by me. That material is now even better sourced, and even an accusation of weasel words wouldn't stand up now. More responses from me on this overall discussion to come in the next few days. QuakerIlK (talk) 08:18, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Seriously? I looked at your diff and you are going to claim that this is not personal opinion?

It was late in the Bronze Age, however, when what is possibly the single-most-significant change in the iconography of Wonder Woman's costume occurred.

That's a blatant violation of WP:EDITORIAL. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:43, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

User Noteduck HOUNDING and violating AE civility warning

Noteduck is a relatively new editor who opened their account in Dec 2020. They made a few edits with a prior account Spungo93. In a short period of time it became clear that Noteduck had civility issues related to edit warring and generally confrontational behavior issues. To this end I opened an AE related to Noteduck's behavior which resulted in a logged warning on 25 March (3 months ago)[[4]]. In the 3 months since Noteduck has engaged in a clear pattern of hounding and incivility with respect to my edits and myself.

HOUNDING:hounding on Wikipedia (or "wikihounding") is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance, or distress to the other editor. Hounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia.

Noteduck has made, at the time of this writing, ~185 edits since since receiving a warning on March 25th related to uncivil and problematic AP2 behavior. Of those over 50% have been about me in some capacity.

• Aprox 40 sandbox entries to a grievances list in violation of POLEMIC [[5]]. After a repeated requests they blanked the list with an questionable edit summary [[6]]. Since deletion they have continued to add to the list [[7]].

Edit: this list of grievances was started on 24 Feb. POLEMIC notes grievance lists are only permitted when used for dispute resolution in a timely manner. Springee (talk) 15:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

• Followed me to a 3RRN where they were uninvolved to attack my credibility. [[8]].
• Cold contacting other editors to campaign against me [[9]], [[10]], [[11]], [[12]], [[13]].

• Engaging in topic areas where they weren't previously involved after I was involved and in a way that opposed my edit/arguments:
  • Odal rune RfC [[14]]
  • Candace Ownes, restoring disputed material[[15]] by reverting my edit without participating in the on going talk page discussion [[16]].
  • I edited the Wall Street Journal page 31 March, Noteduck finds the page 1 April [[17]]
  • Tucker Carlson, reverting my removal of disputed content [[18]] despite not being involved in any related talk page discussions

• Article talk page comments/edit summaries that focus on me as an editor rather than on edits
  • Earlier today [[19]], "Frankly, I ask you to familiarize yourself with with Wikipedia:HOUND and WP:FILIBUSTER and ask yourself why you you continue to persist with challenging this exceedingly minor edit.", [[20]] where they accuse me of having a double standard, and [[21]] "respectfully, you've had considerable difficulty understanding WP:DUE and other policies in the past, including on this page,"

• Violated page's 1RR restriction when restoring the disputed edit above. 1st [[22]] 2nd [[23]]

• Personalizing disputes on talk pages - violation of AE warning regarding civility:
  • [[24]], "This is an extremely worrying double standard on Springee's part, given that they insist on the most uncompromisingly high standards on sources they disagree with. If Springee finds it difficult to evaluate sources, it might be best to stand aside and listen more"
  • [[25]], "Springee, you are currently facing a WP:AE hearing on the basis of tendentious editing. If you are having difficulties following editorial policy, it might be best to listen to others more rather than assume you know all the answers "

I've repeatedly warned Noteduck that this is a HOUNDING issue that needs to stop (closing AE admin's page [[26]], Noteduck's page [[27]]) with no success. I was hopeful when they recently focused on editing on topics like architecture it would mean I would be left alone. From my earliest interactions with Noteduck last winter I have tried to make it clear the editorial disagreements aren't personal disagreements. Personalizing disputes was one of the problems discussed at Noteducks AE. Despite trying to keep things civil it is clear they did not understand the prior AE warning. I am requesting either an AP2 topic ban or a 1-way interaction ban (I will voluntarily avoid interacting with them as well). Springee (talk) 13:38, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support Topic ban from American politics, broadly construed. The bloody topic is enough of a permanent battlefield as it is, without the encouragement of new warriors to join the field. ——Serial 13:52, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment If it's a violation of an AE warning, shouldn't this be at AE as well? Black Kite (talk) 13:58, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I've absolutely not only focused on Springee's edits: see my contributions page.[28] My recent new pages include Architecture of Belarus, Land Captain (Russian Empire), Wellerman etc plus extensive work on Texas Revolution, We Will Always Love You and more. Given a shared interest in politics we've indeed both edited Andy Ngo, Douglas Murray, and others. I maintain that Springee is a repeat civil-POV pusher on conservative politics (which almost all their edits relate to) invariably rejecting unflattering material. Springee was before arb com just a month ago for adding material from deprecated Daily Caller to the Andy Ngo page.[29] "Springee" gets 98 hits on the WP:AN archive. Many editors there share my concerns, and Springee's been sanctioned in the area of US politics before.[30] I indeed prepared a WP:AN complaint in sandbox, as Springee did against me[31] in Feb. My "double standard" comment came from Springee's persistence in wanting Fox's Ken LaCorte's "LaCorte News",[32] which dlthewave observed was "obviously terrible", added to Andy Ngo in April[33] {{{1}}} while rejecting material from Rolling Stone and Jacobin this month[34] (plus BuzzFeed News[35] and Bellingcat.[36] Springee is often litigious and made a WP:AN complaint based on an incorrect interpretation of 1RR on the Jared Kushner page in April.[37] I see this as a WP:BOOMERANG. Springee is quite fixated with challenging my edits and has 65 mentions on my talk page. I maintain that Springee's ongoing challenge to my short sentence on Andy Ngo is a WP:FILIBUSTER.[38] The 1RR Springee has raised with dlthewave[39] is trivial, as Dlthewave notes and I've reverted for now anyway.[40] Springee knows I'm sensitive and afflicted by bipolar-2 and prone to being angry and frustrated in manic phases. Full disclosure: yesterday I launched an unrelated WP:AN action after getting highly aggressive and personal insults elsewhere,[41] and can repeat details if necessary. I question Springee's decision to launch this complaint hours later and not wait for the other action to conclude Noteduck (talk) 14:29, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

• Noteduck, please indicate when you change your text. You have made significant changes to your reply above. As I noted below such changes may result in replies to your text that no longer make sense since the original text has been altered with items added/removed. Springee (talk) 23:30, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

It makes me uncomfortable when editors cite mental health conditions to explain their on-wiki behavior. A lot of people suffer from a lot of things; anyone who is not healthy enough to participate here should immediately log off. Levivich 14:57, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Noteduck, the recent AE against me was closed only with a comment to be more careful, not a logged warning.[[42]] Springee (talk) 15:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC) Edit: Noteduck removed the logged warning claim as part of a series of edits to their above statements[[43]]. The newly added claim I added "College Fix"[[44]] is an example of not getting the facts right. It was added by another editor [[45]] just before my edit. Springee (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Noteduck is trying to sidetrack with claims of bias etc but it's clear they personalize disputes (that was found at the AE and recent examples can be seen here. Rather than argue that edits were not supported they accused Conan The Librarian of acting on personal opinion/bias [[46]] and then proceed to put a warning on their user page [[47]]. In the month after the AE closed (24 March to 24 April), Noteduck made 39 edits. All but 5 were related to me. That included reverting my edits at pages they were otherwise uninvolved with, adding to the POLEMIC list, and trying to recruit other editors to join them against me. This fixation has toned down but they still treat all disputes as personal to the point that (see below) they accused me of knowing they are biopolar and trying to use that against them! It's clear that when editors disagree with them Noteduck is taking it personally. This is the core problem and one of the findings of the AE that resulted in a warning. I'm asking for this to stop. Springee (talk) 12:09, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I ended up here because I lurk at HiLo48's talk page which references an ANN which references this one. I've seen Springee at work and they are a careful, polite editor who stays on the high road even when confronted by rough behavior such as that described above. I find the above construction of trying to paint an incorrect picture regarding Springee very opposite to that very telling. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

North8000, what points in particular do you consider incorrect? –dlthewave ☎ 21:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Basically every (mis)characterization and claim about what every diff shows.North8000 (talk) 12:12, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Some of these complaints really don't hold up to scrutiny, and the diffs don't all show what Springee says they do. I would urge folks to take a close look at the diffs in context before forming an opinion. Noteduck does good work in maintaining NPOV in controversial American Politics articles and I would hate to lose a productive editor from that topic. They do raise numerous valid concerns about Springee's editing (although perhaps they could find a better time and place to do so), and this complaint comes across as a fairly sad attempt to gain "first mover advantage" and silence an editor who they disagree with before they have the opportunity to present their evidence.
  • Regarding the sandbox concerns, it appears that Noteduck has been collecting evidence for an Arbcom case or similar, which is explicitly allowed per WP:POLEMIC: The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner. Sure, the definition of "timely manner" is debatable, but the second diff presented by Springee has been up for all of three days which surely is well within bounds. I would also note that Springee maintained a similar collection of diffs in their sandbox for three months during which time they repeatedly asked Noteduck to remove theirs [48][49]. Pot calling the kettle black? I'm also drawing a blank on how this edit summary (material addressing concerns of tendentious editing and civil-POV pushing put in a safe place. This does not mean the concern has gone away, and WP:ANI proceedings may eventually be required.) is in any way "questionable".
  • Tucker Carlson, The Wall Street Journal, Candace Owens and Odal (rune) have been in the news lately and are hot topics for editors involved in American politics; Noteduck and Springee are far from the only editors who showed up to these articles around the same time. I'm sorry but you'd have to be quite the conspiracy theorist or have particularly thin skin to think that someone who responds to the same RfC [50] as you is trying to create "irritation, annoyance or distress".
  • The 1RR concern is a nothingburger. Springee raised the concern on my talk page [51] (I thought they didn't like it when people did that?) and Noteduck promptly and politely self-reverted [52]. –dlthewave ☎ 21:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
    • Dlthewave, several of your points are incorrect or misleading. I did in fact compile a sandbox list before filing an AE in February. I started the list on 29 Jan and filed the AE on 22 Feb, so just 1 month. I will grant that I didn't clean out my sandbox for two months but the AE was open for a month of that. You mention the 1RR violation. It was interesting how you handled what you thought was a 1RR on my part. You went fishing for sanctions.[[53]] Why weren't you as aggressive with Noteduck's clear violation? If Noteduck were editing a wide range of AP2 articles I would find your point about similar article interest to be more convincing. But articles like Odal (rune) are low traffic, Noteduck isn't making it to a lot of AP2 articles where I don't edit (and that's most). This also came at a time before they decided to edit about architecture and the vast majority of their edits were focused on me (at that time near 80% since the AE closure). Springee (talk) 23:10, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh, for fuck's sake, don't pretend that Odal was some backwater article. You know it was well-trafficked and heavily edited after the CPAC incident, and you're having a meltdown because someone responded to the same RFC that you did.

As I mentioned earlier, this is the first 1RR violation that I've seen from Noteduck, and they quickly apologized and self-reverted when it was pointed out. On the other hand you and I have had several disagreements over what constitutes a revert, so I asked an admin for advice and it seemed to me like the three of us had a nice productive discussion about it. Do you see it differently? –dlthewave ☎ 01:24, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Please keep it civil. During the first month after the AE closed (24 Mar-24 Apr) Noteduck edited 7 article/talk pages that could be seen as AP related (Dennis Prager, WSJ, CPAC, Odal rune, Candace Owens, Douglas Murray, Andy Ngo, Tucker Carlson, 2020 US presidential election, A People's History of the US). Of those I have no involvement with the last 2. Noteduck had no involvement with WSJ, CPAC, Odal, Owens and Carlson but was either opposing my RfC comments or reverting my edits. They did have prior involvement with Ngo, Prager and Murray. If their comments and edits weren't related to mine it would be easier to see this as just hitting the same topics.

Was it Noteduck's first brush with edit warring? Edit warring was one of the AE concerns. You also haven't made it clear why you were quick to warn me when you felt I crossed the line but you didn't even provide a curtesy notice to Noteduck that they had crossed the line. When you asked an admin it was clear that you were fishing for sanctions and made accusations of 1RR violations on my part which you have yet to support. Springee (talk) 02:09, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Back to the sandbox thing: If we give you the benefit of the doubt, you had a list of grievances up for a month and you're claiming that keeping a similar list for three days violates POLEMIC. This is one of those things that really feels like a double standard: It's hounding and uncivil when Noteduck does it, but we're expected to give quite a bit of leeway for your similar actions. If you're so concerned about it, I would hope you would remember to keep your own sandbox clean. –dlthewave ☎ 12:07, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

The grievance list was started by Noteduck 10 Feb. It's almost July and and still being added to. Do you consider 5 months timely? Blanking means little if they note that they can bring the blanked content back (the "blanked" content was added below) and if they keep adding new entries. You claim what I did was similar so lets compare. A specific list in less than a month, used at AE, never used again until blanked when the sandbox was cleaned a month after the AE closed. VS a continuous 5 month list, including many obvious errors, a portion was blanked but in a way that was easy to restore after multiple complaints that the list violated POLEMIC. The accumulation has continued even after several POLEMIC warnings. It's clear Noteduck has decided I've wronged them. To that end they are making a list, following me to continue their grievances at other articles, trying to drum up other editors for support (yourself included) and not trying to claim "but civil POV pusher" rather than reflect on their own actions. If they agree to stop personalizing disputes, MfD the list, and leave me alone all would be fine and we could close this right away. Springee (talk) 12:31, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

on the point about leeway: Springee has been editing for more than a decade and has far, far, far more editorial experience than I do. I've only been regularly editing since December 2020 (I have a handful of edits under an old account earlier in 2020). "Springee" gets 98 hits in the WP:AN archive; "Noteduck" gets 5. Springee should know the rules very well by now - and in fact, Springee does appear to know them when it suits their perspective. There's no reason for Springee to claim ignorance of editorial policy or expect preferential treatment Noteduck (talk) 12:42, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Springee, I can wipe my sandbox of references to you and any perceived breaches of policy now if you request. I can store it elsewhere if need be. However, you seem to be demanding that I never use my sandbox to build up any sort of allegation involving you again, which I think is pretty unreasonable (and indeed, a total WP:POTKETTLE situation). On the repeated HOUNDing allegations, please refer more to the specific parts of the policy you feel I am violating, and remember your many posts and 65 hits for "Springee" on my talk page[54] don't suggest you are exactly non-adversarial. Per WP:HOUND: Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. In fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol and WikiProject Spam. I believe that this is what I've been doing. You've recently pinged me and reverted my edits on the Andy Ngo page,[55] dragging me away from other Wikipedia projects I enjoy much more: see Architecture of Belarus and Texas Revolution Noteduck (talk) 12:54, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

And again an inaccurate telling. I was consolidating citations per a talk page discussion [[56]]. As part of that I noted questionable claims that included OR [[57]][[58]]. Despite your last involvement with the article being in May, you quickly reverted my removal of the OR [[59]][[60]] just 1 hour later. I pinged you because I went to the talk page to discuss this [[61]]. I will note that you edit warred not with me but with Volteer1 who reverted your restorations. You claim I was targeting your edits, I agree you originally added the OR but that was on 22 Feb. I wasn't aware you were the original editor at the time I removed it. Mischaracterizing and personalizing these disputes is a big issue here. Springee (talk) 13:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Just re the ping: sorry, I'm incredibly busy right now. I know I'm related to this stuff, and your retelling looks accurate at a glance, but I'll chime in properly a bit later when I have time. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 14:43, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• An earlier encounter between User:Noteduck and User:Springee was a lengthy mediation about five months ago at DRN, Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_201#PragerU. My observations were that these two editors disagreed on content, and that Noteduck was verbose (which is common and unhelpful at DRN). It was a difficult content dispute that ended up as a lengthy RFC that was really six RFCs rolled into one. All of the parties in the dispute were civil, which, like accuracy, is a duty rather than a virtue. It was preceded by Noteduck filing a Request for Arbitration that the arbitrators and I agreed should go to DRN. I haven't been involved with subsequent interaction between Noteduck and Springee. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:54, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Regarding the sandbox, from the content blanked in Special:Diff/1029281530, pasted below. The user accumulated a large number of grievances, mostly against Springee (talk · contribs). I note that some of the sources mentioned, such as CNN, are generally considered to be reliable, so they do have legitimate concerns about Springee. Their current revision says that they think it is Springee, not themselves, who should be AP2 topic-banned (esp. in relation to Andy Ngo). But, I think this warrants an interaction ban between the users as well. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:31, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• The problem with long lists of diffs is the reason things were reverted is often lost. Noteduck's records aren't very accurate either. Consider above where they accuse me of adding "Collegefix" as a source even though that was added by a different editor. Sometimes the removal of a reliable source from an article is not related to it being a RS but DUE, WP:V, specific phrasing etc. Recently it was suggested that I removed Rolling Stones from the Andy Ngo article. It wasn't true. I removed a specific claim that failed Wp:V and the redundant citation associated with it. The fact that Noteduck has been creating such a long list over so many months supports my POLEMIC concern. The long list says I violated my self imposed 1RR rule twice yet fails to note once was to revert an IP editor, the other was 7 March, where I reverted myself because I didn't include an edit summary [62][63]. Springee (talk) 02:19, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• dc̄ I absolutely contend that there is enough evidence of such a long and egregious history of civil-POV pushing to launch a WP:ANI action against Springee, with the main difficulty being the staggering number of potentially relevant diffs. dlthewave I share your frustration that Springee's characterisation of the Odal rune page as "low-traffic" is typical of Springee's selective recall and application of policy. Similarly, my recent uptick in engagement on the Andy Ngo page was in response to Springee on 18 June making an unjustified wholesale revert (although I've repeatedly reminded them about WP:ROWN) of material I had added sometime earlier.[64] I don't find Ngo particularly edifying and recently have spent the vast majority of my time working on more interesting things like the Texas Revolution and a bunch of Russia-related topics in my sandbox.[65] As dlthewave notes I believe Springee's clear motive here is seeking "first mover advantage" they can leverage as a WP:BOOMERANG that distracts from their own actions. As course, as per WP:BOOMERANG: There is sometimes a belief that, if someone's perceived misbehavior is reported at a noticeboard, the discussion can only focus on the original complaint, and turning the discussion around to discuss the misbehavior of the original reporter is "changing the subject" and therefore not allowed. However, that just isn't the case. Anyone who participated in the dispute or discussions might find their actions under scrutiny. Noteduck (talk) 01:43, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

whoops, on the extremely trivial point about who added the "College Fix", it wasn't Springee. I still think it's inexplicable that you added a point about Andy Ngo being purportedly threatened by left-wing protestors on the basis of the sources "Katu" and "College Fix"[66] without questioning their reliability, while RS's more critical of Ngo have been repeatedly challenged and reverted. Yes, you did remove material from Rolling Stone from Ngo's page, just this month.[67] Noteduck (talk) 02:44, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

And this is why we have to look at the details because you are still getting things wrong left and right. First, these edits were done after starting a talk page discussion [[68]]. Second, I didn't add any of the sources. The edit you link to is one where I changed the language to match that from the parent article. Nothing more. If you want to complain about those sources why don't you talk to the editor who added them? As for Rolling Stone, you are conflating two arguments. I was talking about being accused of removing a source (in the past, not this instance) when I only removed a redundant example of the source. A diff that only looks at the one edit might miss that the removed source was redundant. As for the Rolling Stones material you reference, the issue was it didn't pass Wp:V. The source is still in the article but the specific claim was OR. Springee (talk) 02:58, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

About 20 KB, by Noteduck (talk · contribs)

In May 2021 Springee expressly named a belief that the Cato Institute was an RS, but the SPLC was not, again expressing their selective assessment of sources based on their ideological position. Partisan reverts: some of the sources Springee has removed from pages related to conservative politics because they are "biased", "subjective" or some other feeble reason: the Southern Poverty Law Center,[69][70][71][72][73][74] The New York Times and CNN,[75][76] National Review(!),[77] The Washington Post,[78] Newsweek,[79], The Washington Post and NBC,[80] The Washington Post and Bellingcat[81], Vox and The Daily Beast[82], the Los Angeles Times,[83] The Intercept,[84] the [[BBC],[85] Rolling Stone, Jacobin and Columbia Journalism Review[86], BuzzFeed News,[87] The Guardian(including restoring grammatical errors!)[88], Salon (website),[89] Forbes,[90] the Seattle Times,[91] Reports sans Frontieres,[92] New Republic and NBC News,[93] the Chicago Sun-Times[94] Politico and four other sources,[95] The Independent,[96] Daily Dot,[97][98][99] Reuters and Fox News(!)[100] Middle East Eye,[101] The Huffington Post,[102] Mother Jones,[103] and smaller-scale newspapers like the 8-time Pulitzer Prize winner Kansas City Star,[104][105]Des Moines Register[106] and The Arizona Republic(known for its conservatism!)[107][108] and academic articles[109]. These are almost all going back to November 2020 alone! There are simply too many of them to list, as Springee's pattern of deleting material unflattering to conservatives has become increasingly brazen. Springee also fought a protracted rearguard action to keep a Harvard University study about promotion of climate change denial out of the ExxonMobil page in favor of an article from a fossil fuel lobby group,[110] as well as contesting at length the inclusion of an article from the New York Times on the same article.[111] Concerningly, Springee seems to have a record of whitewashing the pager of powerful climate-change denying groups[112][113][114][115][116] - Wall Street Journal here[117][118] Springee is currently engaged in a rearguard action to minimise the use of material related to climate change denial on the PragerU page.[119] The consistent feature of absolutely every one of Springee's reversions is not evidentiary weight but ideological bent - the material challenged is always something reliably sourced, but arguably unflattering, to a conservative subject. I've provided around 50 diffs as evidence. Here are some accusations of "whitewashing" by other editors levelled towards Springee.[120][121][122][123][124][125] Springee will throw the book at the offending editor in terms of spurious complaints about Wiki policies, frequently launch RfCs in order to contest sources and drag out the process as long as possible. Look back through Springee's edits on Andy Ngo, Douglas Murray (author), and PragerU and you'll see this pattern play out time and time again. The results are horribly whitewashed pages representing powerful, moneyed conservative interests - consider that on the current PragerU page, a flattering paragraph given over to the company's unsuccessful lawsuit against Google has 3 paragraphs and 310 words, while just a single sentence is dedicated to PragerU's well-documented[126][127][128][129][130][131] record of misinformation on climate change. On 15 September 2020, Springee said that they would voluntarily follow a 1RR rule limit.[132] Nonetheless. They repeatedly violated this request - on 28 January 2021,[133][134], 7 March 2021,[135][136] For other contentions of Springee's partisan bias, see[137][138][139] for behavorial problems on pages related to conservative politics[140][141][142][143][144][145][146][147][148][149], including a formal sanction in the area of American politics[150] unwarranted deletion of material[151][152][153] especially misbehavior related to guns[154][155][156][157][158][159][160][161][162][163][164][165][166][167][168][169][170][171][172][173][174][175]. Multiple overt claims of firearms advocacy[176][177][178][179] and whitewashing pages of firearms[180][181] are particularly concerning. If you go through these diffs, you'll see that unexplained block reverts and stonewalling are particular problems for Springee. It's worth noting that Springee has been accused of abusing the noticeboards and being overly litigious towards other editors before.[182] Note that these diffs are (a) not exhaustive in terms of Springee's record of misconduct and (b) fragmentary, so may not individually be absolutely damning. While my focus here is Springee, it's worth noting that they often operate as a kind of tag-team with others, invariably backing each other up on topics related to conservative politics.[183][184], [185][186], [187],[188],[189] Needless to say, dealing with multiple editors making the same partisan arguments is frustrating. You have made made several comments about purported left-wing bias on Wikipedia.[190] Some of Shinealittlelight's claims about obviously reliable sources are frankly quite bizarre - see this extended (and baffling) complaint about a widely-cited report written by a University of North Carolina professor that was critical of PragerU[191] and this attempt to ensure that the term "white nationalist" would not be used in relation to the Kenosha unrest shooting suspect.[192] PragerU has met the criteria for a "repeat offender" of spreading misinformation on Facebook[193][194] and yet "misinformation" barely appears on the PragerU Wiki page. Remarkably, these editors have alleged poor sourcing on a proposed addition to the header that would mention misinformation that contains more than two dozen sources.[195] Absolutely every addition that it critical of Prager gets ruthlessly purged. UPDATE4: I've perused through the WP:AN noticeboard and Springee appears on a jaw dropping 97(!) different archive pages, usually many times over. Cedar777 and Shadydabs have summed up what the problem is with Springee's editing, over and over: Springee reverts whole blocks of new material on a page related to conservative politics (despite their long history on Wiki, WP:ROWN appears to be unfamiliar to Springee), claims the source is not DUE, claims the source is not an RS, misrepresents the source's contents, and if this all fails Springee then claims there's no consensus, essentially demanding a personal veto S, that's a mischaracterization - I did not "accuse" editors of anything. I reminded editors of policy, namely WP:ROWN - here is the source[196] Noteduck (talk) 15:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC) Record of Springee's spurious edits and reversions: 2021 [197][198] July 2020: reverts of good sources added to the Andy Ngo page.[199] Reverts of good sources on Tucker Carlson.[200][201][202][203][204][205][206][207][208][209][210][211] June-July 2020: reverts of good sources added to the page of conservative historian Victor Davis Hansen.[212][213] June 2020: Andy Ngo [214][215][216], Tucker Carlson[217], Burt Rutan[218]

Proposal 1: Two-Way Interaction Ban

This is another case of two editors who do not like each other. I propose a two-way interaction ban between User:Noteduck and User:Springee with only the usual exceptions. Since they both edit in the area of American politics, this will inconvenience both of them. Antagonism between editors should be inconvenient to both editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:36, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:36, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I have nothing personally against Noteduck. I do not seek to interact with them. If they agree to AGF I'm happy to do the same. I do not feel my ability to edit articles where I have long been involved should be restricted due to Notrduck's logged uncivil behavior. As North8000 said, I understand AP2 can be confrontational so I take the high road. Springee (talk) 15:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose as not the solution to this problem. This isn't about two editors not liking each other. Or rather, it's about more than that. I mean every ANI report involves two or more editors not liking each other. If we handed out IBANs for that, we'd all be IBANed. The problem here is disruption, and disruptive editors should just be removed from the project altogether. Or at least the topic area. We've had enough noticeboard drama about this (by my count: an arbcom request, a DRN, at least one AN, at least one ANI, and that's probably not everything). Either there is a real problem here or someone is really crying wolf. Either way, an IBAN is not the solution. (Also, no one is going to use DRN if the neutral later proposes sanctions against the participants.) For my part, I don't see a case being made yet by anyone for sanctions against anyone else, mostly because there are so many false positive diffs being presented. So if anyone reading this thinks this thread should end with action, I'd suggest posting your best diffs and quotes, and really making a clear and brief argument about what is needed and why. Levivich 16:10, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - the problem is not Springee or two-way interaction, it is WP:HOUNDING by Noteduck which is a policy vio and it needs immediate attention by an admin. This is unacceptable behavior. Hounding violates the UCoC, Section 3.1 Harassment - it is a very serious behavioral issue, and no editor deserves to be hounded, on or off WP. Atsme 💬 📧 17:30, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose This mis-characterizes the situation. Springee has consistently taken the careful, polite high road. And they came here for relief from hounding. Maybe just a warning to Noteduck regarding the topic at hand would be sufficient to resolve this. North8000 (talk) 18:32, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I appreciate Robert McClenon's work on resolving this. However I think the problem is asymmetric here, despite this litigious WP:BOOMERANG by Springee. Again, if allegations of WP:HOUND are being made, specific references to the text of the policy should be made, rather than broad-brush claims. I recommend looking through both mine[219] and Springee's[220] contribution pages and see the contrast between an editor who has added constructively to a broad range of topics, and one with a dogged focus on contesting material on pages related to right-wing politics Noteduck (talk) 23:20, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Withdraw - I am willing to withdraw this proposal. Will someone else propose something else? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:44, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Re-open and support - Robert McClenon has withdrawn this proposal, but I'd like to repropose it. There is a problem that has to be solved here, and I think this proposal solves it better than any other, and specifically better than any one-sided sanction against Noteduck. Loki (talk) 06:18, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposal #2

Enough has been seen and reviewed to at least raise concern about WP:hounding, WP:Battleground and against-WP:civility behavior by Noteduck particularly with respect to Springee. Noteduck is warned to avoid those types of behaviors. North8000 (talk) 14:25, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I would support this or as an alternative I would accept a MfD Noteduck's sandbox with an understanding they may keep the content not related to me. This is a grievance list and a clear violation of POLEMIC. This is especially true since many of the claims are false if anyone actually looks at the diffs in question. Springee (talk) 01:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

If you'd like to see it deleted, why don't you nominate it for MfD yourself? –dlthewave ☎ 12:21, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I considered that but if we decide to MfD here it will be easier to ensure it is completed. Springee (talk) 10:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - Looking at the discussion above, I'm not sure there's agreement that Noteduck's actions merit a warning or even meet the criteria for those issues. It may be wise to wait for more input from uninvolved editors, preferably admins, before making further proposals to close. –dlthewave ☎ 12:16, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support as proposer As the mildest remedy that has a reasonably good chance at resolving the situation. I didn't fully understand Springee's response/post. But they are referring to work there by Noteduck that appears to be aimed at using the system to "get" someone vs. just to solve an issue, would agree that that should be deleted. North8000 (talk) 13:05, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support I've had limited access recently and will for a while longer. I think it's clear that Noteduck has been campaigning against me (see the diffs showing them contacting other editors out of the blue and in cases which they weren't previously involved). The POLEMIC list started in Feb is also a problem. Yes, they blanked it but then started it right back up so it never went away and as the collapsed section below shows, it's still very accessible. This list is a serious problem when editors presume it was in any way shape or form reliably collected. In addition to the fact that most examples don't contain context, they also have a lot of just plain wrong claims (saying sources were removed in cases where I was moving blocks of text, saying I violated 1RR when I self reverted then restored to correct my edit note etc). Finally, trying to bring being bipolar into this! Levivich is right, if a this is a problem that results in confrontational behavior then the editor should stay out of confrontational areas. Springee (talk) 10:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment not particularly sensitive Springee. At any rate, Springee seems to want an asymmetric rule that I can't collect material in my sandbox for use in WP:AN complaints. As we've already observed, this is a total double standard. I'll certainly be more mindful about the "timely" requirement of the policy but surely this is an important part of the sandbox function, especially for the sake of transparency about upcoming complaints. One glance at my sandbox reveals that the large majority does not focus on Springee but on my various pet projects to improve Wiki. I just made Farmers or Hunter-Gatherers? The Dark Emu Debate btw and I'm quite happy with it Noteduck (talk) 07:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

There is no double standard. You have maintained a grievance list since February. That is only allowed if the contents are to be used in a timely fashion which you have not done. It doesn't matter if only 1% of the list is a POLEMIC, 0% is the upper limit. The fact that you deleted the list on June 19 means nothing if you show that you have learned nothing and started a new one. Springee (talk) 09:28, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I guess I'm a bit confused here, was Noteduck not supposed to start a new list (as new issues emerged) after deleting the previous one? –dlthewave ☎ 13:28, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is helpful, but I think that the "timely" part serves to make a distinction between complaints to try to resolve a current problem vs longer term constructions to try to "get" (deprecate or remove) an editor or just do battle with an editor. And the latter is presumably a reason for the polemic rule, particularly against another editor. Perhaps, in addition to the proposed gentle warning, if Noteduck could (you) agree to be extra careful and mindful of these objectives? North8000 (talk) 12:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I think that is a good distinction. A month is reasonable period of time to collect diffs but if this list is still here mid July it will be a clear POLEMIC and now Noteduck would be clearly warned about the policy. Springee (talk) 18:10, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

well yes, I can certainly aim to keep material in my sandbox for no more than a month in line with the "timely" language of the policy. The material I gathered was not intended to be part of some aimless, vague polemic but rather the concrete basis for a WP:AN complaint. The sandbox is a convenient place to gather such evidence, which I'm sure is why you've used it for the same reason Springee Noteduck (talk) 01:50, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Springee, just observing an example from the last couple of days - I'd work on this pattern of wholesale reverts,[221] especially since other editors have raised concerns about your editing related to right-wing politics. I've reminded you of WP:ROWN multiple times, and with more than a decade of experience I'm sure you know it well too. You correctly note that this material was about Kirk, not TPUSA, so doesn't belong on the latter's page. Why not move this material to the Charlie Kirk (activist) page, or if you think the material does not belong on Kirk's page either, take it the Kirk talk page or the editor in question's talk page? Noteduck (talk) 04:24, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

If timely is your intent why gave you been collecting grievances for 5 months with no action? I'm glad you are able to recognize that the content I removed from TPUSA does not belong on the page. I'm certainly not obligated to try to make a case for the content to be DUE on another page which is what you are asking me to do. Springee (talk) 05:17, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Springee I'm merely recommending that given your experience and your focus on pages related to TPUSA and proximate topics, you could assist less experienced editors. I see you have again reverted the eight word sentence I added to Andy Ngo,[222] though your rebuttals haven't been substantive. You initially referred to WP:OR, and now WP:V, without specifying what part of either policy you are grounding your argument in. I recommend basing any objections to new edits in the specific language of editorial policy rather than a broad-brush rejection Noteduck (talk) 05:55, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I and several other experienced editors did try to help you early on. Our efforts were met with hostility to the point that an AE was filled against you and you were formally warned. The Ngo material has been reverted by two editors and fails WP:V. The ONUS is on you to correct the problem. That you restored the same content you violated 1RR to add further shows that you didn't take your logged warning to heart. Springee (talk)`

Springee recently launched an action in Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard[223] in relation to my aforementioned short 14-word sentence.[224] They also are waging an ongoing fight on Talk:Andy Ngo to contest this same material.[225] Noteduck.

Mis-characterizations aside, those are good examples of the Wikipedian, polite, and content-focused way to deal with content questions/disputes. North8000 (talk) 11:36, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

A gentle piece of advice to Springee btw: I recommend aiming to diversify your interest base beyond right-wing political pages like Andy Ngo ("Springee" gets 600+ hits in the page archives), whoops strike through Charlie Kirk etc. I had it on the brain because of the point about TPUSA above - please don't cherry-pick. As I noted in the earlier dispute in April, based on samples of around ~1000 of your recent edits, at times 95%+ have related to conservative politics-related pages. I've pivoted away and have found creating diverse and original content elsewhere much more satisfying (talk) Noteduck (talk) 03:54, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Interesting... let's see, how many edits do I have to the Charlie Kirk page... [[226]]. It looks like zero. I'm glad to see you have found other areas to focus on. Hopefully that will mean you no longer need your POLEMIC violating list nor will need to hound me or attack me. That would be great. Springee (talk) 04:04, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

In response to your edit above[[227]], it is always a good idea to have your facts correct before lobbing criticisms. That is one of the issues with your POLEMIC grievance list. The fact that it violates POLEMIC is another. Springee (talk) 04:19, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

• Conditional support - a first time warning is customary for new editors, but in this case, it is overly gracious, especially considering Noteduck's comment just above Springee's which begins with "A gentle piece of advice to Springee", and their noting that 95% of Springee's edits are to conservative politics. Wow - that statement provides some pretty big evidence of HOUNDING. Why should any editor care, other than a POV pusher, if 100% of Springee's edits are to conservative politics? Those are the articles that need attention because of strong POV pushing, and left-leaning news media that dominates the echo chamber, not to mention an issue of noncompliance with RECENTISM and NOTNEWS; all of which means there is typically more work to do on those articles. We leave our biases at login. WP is a collaborative project - we don't "advise" other editors whose views oppose our own, especially veteran editors, where they should or shouldn't edit. Admins are the ones who make that decision when there's proven disruption, and right now the only disruption I'm seeing is coming from Noteduck. I commend Springee for exercising such patience. Atsme 💬 📧 10:45, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Atsme, how do you feel about Springee's similar assessment: Noteduck has made, at the time of this writing, ~185 edits since since receiving a warning on March 25th related to uncivil and problematic AP2 behavior. Of those over 50% have been about me in some capacity, followed by a detailed analysis of Noteduck's edits? Why is it OK for Springee to calculate percentages of where Noteduck has been editing, but when Noteduck does the same thing it's considered hounding? –dlthewave ☎ 05:16, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Dlthewave - for the sake of brevity, Noteduck's comments are political in nature, whereas Springee is being hounded and is expected to provide evidence of same. Atsme 💬 📧 11:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

As you note I think that a close review of this ANI thread itself says a lot about the situation. I'm not sure if you meant that my proposal #2 was too mild but for better or worse that's sort of how I roll. Perhaps a one way interaction ban would have been a better proposal to give decisive relief to Springee and be a stronger "we really mean it" regarding battleground mentality towards another editor. But the warning remains as the alternative that I support. And Springee themself supported it and so they likely feel that it is sufficient, at least at this "give it a try" stage. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:51, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure what part of WP:HOUND would proscribe "a gentle piece of advice" or how it displays a battleground mentality. I offered what I see as sound advice based on my experience that it's much more fulfilling to create pages and make extensive original contributions to Wiki rather than have to spend lengthy amounts of time on talk pages, which is where contentious political articles often end up. Springee has certainly aimed to correct perceived errors and issues reminders of policy when they've seen fit, sometimes in quite strident terms, on my talk page (see User talk:Noteduck). I've been distracted and busy working on unrelated projects, but I've wiped the perceived breaches I noted, which made up a small portion of my sandbox, in a good-faith compliance with Springee's request.[228] I hadn't been alerted to the “timely manner” requirement prior to this ANI notice but I'm fine with interpreting it as one month and not leave material for policy complaints in my sandbox for longer than this. This is by no means a repudiation of any of these points. I think that while I don't agree at all with the basis of this WP:ANI notice I've engaged in a constructive and good-faith manner Noteduck (talk) 05:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The first you heard about it? Why didn't you understand the problem when I warned you about POLEMIC on 10 April [[229]] and then again on 25 May [[230]]. It was only on 19 June that a 3rd warning finally resulted in you removing the content. Why did it take two months? Certainly you should have been aware of the timeliness requirement the first time I provided a POLEMIC link in the warning. Springee (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Springee none of your posts on my page referred to the timely manner requirement. Noteduck (talk) 12:44, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

That makes your failure to remove even worse. The first time I just said it violated POLEMIC. You didn't bother to follow up and check so that's on you. Either way, you were informed. The second time I included this part, "Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws.". So you just decided to ignore the whole thing since the only reason to keep such a list would have to fall under the timely exception. If you weren't aware of it, after being told where to look, what more do you want. It's clear you were keeping the list despite knowing it was against user talk page guidelines. Springee (talk) 14:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

That's not the best representation of the facts. Having started to regularly edit Wiki in December 2020, I had of course seen other editors use their sandboxes to assemble ANI complaints and discuss the use of sandboxes for this purpose, and in fact on 10 February I made an enquiry on your talk page about material you were preparing in sandbox for a complaint against me (though it was quickly blanked).[231] You did indeed quote WP:POLEMIC in a post on my talk page on 25 May, specifically the passage warning against Example text For context, the very next sentence of WP:POLEMIC, in the same dot point, reads: "The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner." Why omit this, especially given that your main objection here appears to be related to the timely manner requirement? On 25 June you referred to the specific phrase timely manner in this complaint.[232] It seems unduly to think I deserve sanctions based on not heeding specific points of editorial policy Noteduck (talk) 07:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose As someone who's often edited on American political topics where both Springee and Noteduck were participating I have never seen a dispute between them that I honestly felt was Noteduck's fault to begin with. This is not to say that Noteduck has been a perfect editor, but that I strongly oppose any one-sided sanction against Noteduck. For what it's worth, I would support the interaction ban above or even a one-way interaction ban against Springee: I think that there's a far better case to be made for Springee hounding Noteduck than vice-versa. Loki (talk) 06:34, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Are you saying this because you can think of any actual examples or just because you see this as a tactical move? Noteduck was warned about civility and edit warring at AE. Did other editors (myself included) start those problems? Springee (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Nothing says "battleground mentality" like speculating about "tactical moves". Please, try to assume good faith. –dlthewave ☎ 11:54, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

struck Springee (talk) 14:33, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Loki, Springee has given pretty substantial examples of hounding. Perhaps you could give some to support your assertion of hounding by Springee?North8000 (talk) 13:26, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh certainly. Of the 37 sections on Noteduck's talk page, 11, or roughly a third, are sections started by Springee accusing Noteduck of bad behavior: [233], [234], [235], [236], [237], [238], [239], [240], [241], [242], [243]. When these accusations have been actually reported to admins, none of them so far have resulted in sanctions for Noteduck more serious than one unenthusiastic warning once. Loki (talk) 03:21, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

There have only been two trips to the notice board, the AE that resulted in a warning and this one. If you look, many are good faith efforts to help a new editor learn the ropes. Others are for the exact behaviors that resulted in a logged warning. It's unfortunate that you and Dlthewave are condoning vs discouraging such behaviors. Even if you think Noteduck hasn't crossed a sanctionable line why encourage it? Springee (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

LokiTheLiar, that's not hounding. North8000 (talk) 14:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Loki and dlthewave for helping to set the record straight here. A search for edits made by Springee in my talk page history reveals 44 edits by Springee, or more than 30% of all edits in the page's history.[244] A search of Springee's talk page history shows 13 edits by Noteduck (though all have since been wiped).[245] This is hardly commensurate with the accusation of one-way, targeted WP:HOUNDING. Springee hasn't explained how they arrived at the point that "over 50% of Noteduck's edits since 25 March have been about me 'in some capacity'" [inverted commas mine], which they will need to clarify, and again I invite editors to look at the diversity of the contributions in my edit history[246] and sandbox.[247] Springee's stated desire to avoid interacting with me is hardly commensurate with their recent actions on the Andy Ngo talk page, where they:

• on 18 June Springee pinged me in a subheading I had no prior involvement in,[248] having reverted a not prominent, 14-word short sentence I had added to a body paragraph on Ngo's page[249]
• continued to contest this short sentence at length on Ngo's talk page for close to another two weeks, including repeatedly interacting with me without apparent distress[250]
• on 25 June took this same short sentence to the no original research noticeboard,[251] on the basis that it purportedly failed WP:V requirements, only for other uninvolved editors to quickly affirm my longstanding interpretation of the contested sentence.[252][253].

Given the outcome of the WP:NORN discussion they launched, I hope Springee will be restoring the material. As I've noted above,[254] I did not receive a specific reference to the point about assembling complaints in the sandbox being done in a timely manner from Springee, and would have applied the policy (though its wording doesn't lay out precise instructions for how to adhere to it) as best I could had I known. I'm happy to field any further questions Noteduck (talk) 07:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Why? There is not a consensus of support and there are concerns about weight for such a claim. Springee (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

do you not agree that the counter-arguments have been quite comprehensively refuted? Noteduck (talk) 23:09, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Snooganssnoogans

Snooganssnoogans was aware that I was blocked as a sockpuppet because on their userpage, they placed my name under the word, "Busted".

On 16 May 2020, they removed "Busted" and kept my name listed under NoCal100 Sockpuppet investigations.

On 28 Dec 2020, I was informed by Maxim that ARBCOM approved my appeal, that I was not a sockpuppet The Kingfisher was not a NoCal100 sockpuppet and that both accounts (The Kingfisher and UberVegan) were now in good standing.

On 24 May 2021, I warned Snooganssnoogans to remove my name from their userpage:

As I'm sure you are aware, ARBCOM cleared me of being a sockpuppet. Therefore, per WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:CIVILITY, you need to remove this edit from your userpage immediately and I may consider not reporting you. The Kingfisher (talk) 21:33, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Shortly thereafter, they made this edit, removing me from under the NoCal100 Sockpuppet investigation, but still leaving me listed on their userpage under sockpuppet investigations.

As of now, their userpage still has me listed as an editor that is a suspected sockpuppet.

I believe that listing another editor on their userpage as a suspected sockpuppet for more than six months after ARBCOM stated that I'm not a sockpuppet, AND after I warned them, that they are most definitely violating WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:CIVILITY.

Thank you! The Kingfisher/UberVegan The Kingfisher (talk) 01:55, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

You DID sock by creating the account User:UberVegan. UberVegan was an account that you created to circumvent a block. Even if the original block was bullshit you still made a sockpuppet account. You need to keep in mind that ArbCom didn't clear you of socking; it cleared you of being a sockpuppet of NoCal100. Listing you as a "active" sockpuppet isn't true anymore and you're right that it's something that should be removed. At the same time you need to moderate your language. You're overplaying your hand here and saying stuff like "I may consider not reporting you." doesn't demonstrate a collaborative mindset; it's very battlegroundy and seeking to remove any and all mentions of your sockpuppetry isn't a tenable position. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 09:38, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Your points are well taken.

It's listed on my userpage because I was the editor who successfully uncovered that you were running a sockpuppet account to evade a ban[255]. If the consensus here is that I should remove the sockpuppet mention from my userpage, then I will comply with that. However, the list of past sockpuppets is very helpful for me to bust future ones (usernames are hard to remember), which is why I note them down. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 10:35, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

You're being disingenuous at best. It is not listed as "I uncovered this sockpuppet", but rather "Active sockpuppetry to watch for". In other words, you've put a bounty on me. I am simply an editor with two accounts. Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Kingfisher (talk • contribs)

You're not simply an editor with two accounts. This is how you reacted when I asked if you had a relationship to the other account: "You're insane! No, I have no idea who The Kingfisher is! Are you crazy???!!!"[256] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:50, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

All the mud that you're throwing clearly came out in my appeal and I've left on my talk page for all to see. And, most of that was the basis for my appeal being denied. However, ARBCOM was able to get past that and ultimately unblocked me, BOTH accounts. Meaning, neither is now a sockpuppet. All the S#!T that you continue to sling from the past doesn't justify you to openly imply on your userpage that I am a sockpuppet. The Kingfisher (talk) 16:50, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I do find your obsessive focus on me a bit disturbing. Since your return, you've made baseless claims of tendentious editing on my talk page[257] and absurdly called for a ban on me for bringing a content dispute to the BLP noticeboard[258]. Even in your unblock request, you called for a ban on me for successfully uncovering that UberVegan was your sock[259]. In my view, this borders on harassment. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 10:35, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

A bit of a strawman and again disingenuous. I believe that since my return I have made one claim, not claims (I will check later) whereas you have ME listed on your userpage! Who is obsessed? The Kingfisher (talk) 13:33, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• @The Kingfisher: Will it make a difference if the word Active was removed (assuming Snooganssnoogans agrees)? M.Bitton (talk) 13:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

No.

I changed it to just "sockpuppetry".[260] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:54, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

@Snooganssnoogans: You need to take my name off your userpage.

Just want to briefly weigh in as a third party--while I don't think Snoogans' approach here is particularly constructive, he is within his rights. Kingfisher, I think you would admit that whatever the merits of any official action, there are some things you regret. I understand that it is irksome when some people won't let the past be the past, but neither you nor I can control anyone else's conduct. My advice would be to have some of your favorite food or drink and just try to ignore this, difficult though it may be. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

@Dumuzid: What do you think the community would say if every editor who wanted, placed on their userpage transgressions of other editors? Would it be okay for me to list on my userpage every editor who has been blocked? Is that civil?

The focus should be on the process that allowed an editor to be wrongly blocked as a sock in the first place. Think of Andy Dufesne. Are you going to judge him by the fact that he was wrongly convicted or on the fact that lied to the guards and the warden? Or that he dug a hole when that was forbidden by the prison? Or that he was a sockpuppet and used a fake name to set up bank accounts? Or that he broke out of prison??? I'm sorry, but that's exactly what is happening here. The Kingfisher (talk) 17:34, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I would say that if you want to list all userpages of blocked editors, you'd be expending a lot of effort, but it would be within your rights. I've given my take. You are, of course, free to ignore it. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:38, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:No personal attacks#Why personal attacks are harmful says, "It is as unacceptable to attack a user with a history of foolish or boorish behavior, or one who has been blocked, banned, or otherwise sanctioned, as it is to attack any other user." Wikipedia:Banning policy#Conduct towards banned editors says, "It is unacceptable to take advantage of banned editors, whether by mocking, baiting, or otherwise abusing them."

It bothers me to see for example members of the Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list#Eastern European mailing list who were banned for coordinating their edits off-Wiki now un-banned and editing under new names. But I have to accept that ARBCOM has decided to allow them to edit as full members of the community and would only bring up their past misdeeds in a disciplinary discussion. While past blocks and bans are relevant to discussions of future blocks and bans, they are not relevant to content discussions, as far as Wikipedia is concerned.

If you want to listed sanctions against editors, you are free to save them on your computer or use cloud storage, which is provided free by several companies.

TFD (talk) 19:39, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

While I do not condone socking (Which The Kingfisher did), I think Snooganssnoogans is wrong to keep The KingFisher's name on his userpage even though he is not actively socking. This is highly uncivil behavior that I see all the time. I do not think a community where civility is a pillar should allow editors to keep highly negative information about other editors on their userpages if they are in good enough standing. Telling someone to "just ignore it" does not sit well with me at all. Scorpions13256 (talk) 19:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• Remove the list – I'm pretty open-minded about userspace freedom but userpages shouldn't be used to keep score or brag about successful sock hunts; it's counterproductive to a welcoming, collegiate community. And kind of immature. (Oh, and if an editor actually did use multiple accounts to pretend they were two different people, that's also immature and they should avoid riding high horses for a while.) Levivich 19:54, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

  Just wanted to be perfectly clear that I agree with this entirely from a prudential standpoint--I just don't think an administrator should have the ability to enforce such a mandate. Then again, perhaps that's why I will never be an administrator. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 19:58, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

  It is not a listing "used to keep score or brag about successful sock hunts". It is a listing helpful to identify sockpuppets in the parts of Wikipedia that I'm familiar with and with modus operandi that I'm familiar with. A number of the sockpuppets are long-time abusers and I go back to the notes to identify them when they return. Editors who have little to no experience in identifying socks may not realize it, but it's extraordinarily tiresome and time-consuming to identify likely socks and connect them to the right account. Those notes help with that task. It's absurd to see it described as "immature", but I'm not surprised to see that from Levivich (who pops up in every discussion related to me to lay into me). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

  That's what WP:LTA is for. If you want to maintain your own LTA notes, do it offline. Having your own personal LTA section on your userpage is not a good idea; it looks like you're publishing an "enemies list" on your userpage. Levivich 20:45, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

  I am not going to maintain notes on LTA on my computer and I see no value in consulting a crowdsourded LTA list where I have no familiarity with 99/100 accounts listed. The point of the notes is too rapidly link a particular sock with a master account. Your suggestions are all burdens that serve no purpose (except to protect the feelings of confirmed sockpuppets) and make it much more time-consuming and complicated to link likely socks with their masters. If my notes are so offensive, isn't the next logical step to do away with all archives of sockpuppetry on Wikipedia? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:01, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

  Another option would be a user subpage. Levivich 21:53, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I disagree. This is WP:POLEMIC and inappropriate, regardless. Few people will be interested in a random old sockpuppetry case anyway. Scorpions13256 (talk) 00:02, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

• Without further comment on the other sockpupppetry listings, the listing of the UberVegan account, given the totality of the circumstances, likely violates WP:POLEMIC, point 3, as "[negative] evidence ... should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if [it] will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed." Given it bothers The Kingfisher enough to bring it to ANI, I would suggest that the mention of The Kingfisher/UberVegan be removed from User:Snooganssnoogans. Maxim_(talk) 19:58, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I advise User:The Kingfisher to read Streisand effect. The Wikipedia community knows far more about this incident than we would if they hadn't made so much noise. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Sure, that's one way to deal with uncivil behavior. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:47, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Do you mean to say that's why you are making this cameo appearance here? SPECIFICO talk 19:57, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

User pages are full of all kinds of nonsense. Nobody's compelled to look at them. Why do the same familar names come here with snark and attack every time the thorny but diligent good faith Snoogs gets dragged into court? We do not know. SPECIFICO talk 19:58, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

It's because of how they interact with other editors. For example by using their user page to attack other editors. TFD (talk) 21:41, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

When a picture speaks...

No, that doesn't explain a certain POV constituency with no cogent comment except "bad" -- especially the less lily-pure warriors among them. SPECIFICO talk 04:09, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

The editors who commented in this thread are The Kingfisher, Snoog, Chess, M.Bitton, Dumuzid, TFD, Scorpions, Maxim, Robert McClenon, SJ, you, and me (apologies if I missed anyone). None of us are "a certain POV constituency" or "less lily-pure warriors," and it'd be great if you didn't make comments like that towards us. Levivich 04:31, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Who fingered you? Puzzled. SPECIFICO talk 04:42, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

That's rather a personal question, isn't it [261]? EEng 21:23, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

You said "Why do the same familar names come here" and I've listed the names. You said some or all of them "come here with snark and attack" and are "a certain POV constituency" including "less lily-pure warriors." These are not OK things to say about your colleagues, so stop.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but the editors who commented here don't appear to have commented in the last ANI about Snoog [262], or the one before it [263], or the last three ANEWs [264] [265] [266] (that's all I checked). Levivich 06:22, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh of course it's OK this board is for dicussing behaviour. Your research is off the mark, but if you are looking for a personalized accusation, you won't get any from me. Chill time. Maybe work on more article conent and less noticeboards and chat pages? Cheeers. SPECIFICO talk 13:44, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

It wouldn't be a true party unless one of the familiar names jumps in to unironically wonder why the same familiar names comment, unironically use snark and attacks while accusing others among the familiar names of using snark and attacks, and unironically maintain this board is for discussing behavior while criticizing others for discussing behavior. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:20, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Y Ernie! We've been expecting you. 😎 SPECIFICO talk 16:16, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I've been waiting for you to open the door! Mr Ernie (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

The fact that the investigation was originally listed under the heading of 'Busted' reveals that the original intent was to maintain a trophy wall. While uncovering sockpuppets is admirable, maintaining a list like this on a user page discourages sincere attempts at WP:FRESHSTART, and for those SPI like this one that are more nuanced (the block evasion was due to a bad block), it crosses into incivility to keep a personal vanity list, especially as the editor involved has asked for their name to be removed and is otherwise in good standing. RandomGnome (talk) 03:45, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

@Snooganssnoogans: I'd just <!-- comment them out --> if I was you. nagualdesign 04:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Honestly is comes across as this user treating the Wikipedia as an MMORPG, where "Identify 10 sockpuppets to earn a +10 Sword of Sock-Slaying" is a quest objective that they track their progress towards. It should be removed from the user-page. Zaathras (talk) 04:36, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

IP user attacking me with uncivil slurs

A user 63.194.188.238 (talk · contribs) has been attacking me when I was trying to suggest to them to not attack users on their talk page. Continued edits have not helped. There edits can be seen here:

• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5
• 6

There are several more that can be seen through their edit history (often just spelling the words backwards I assume to hide some sort of profanity filter?). I've suggested to them to read WP:CIVIL and gave them over four warnings on their talk page (all have been removed). I'm not really sure what I can do more, but I would suggest a block/ban as this user is not here to work with others to help build an encyclopedia. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:43, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

As a follow-up, the users response to to giving them a notice to this was this. I'll admit, it gave me a cheap laugh at least! They are currently blocked but I'm suggesting that they have little to no interest in contributing to the encyclopedia and don't seem to show any indication that they've read the rules I've linked them to. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:51, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I've extended the block and disabled TPA due to that last edit summary, which used the f-word (i.e. not fuck). That said, you should report misconduct and leave it at that, rather than continue posting on their talk page (in the double digits), seeing as they've just been blanking everything (without exception). El_C 10:12, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• The IP should be warned to use only civil slurs. EEng 21:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

  Knock it the hell off, you witty, valued contributor. I swear to god, you just go around improving every thread you get involved in, and it's getting downright pleasant. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:49, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

  Do I detect a note of sarcasm? EEng 21:36, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Bonadea

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hi, I am having a hard time with this used Bonadea after we disagreed on a topic related to a page names LGBT propaganda. I created the page and after my edit was reverted I wanted by Bonadea, I just wanted to discuss the problem with him and see what I did wrong and if we can agree on something. The main issue was that in his opinion propaganda had a negative meaning and that would break the neutrality of a page. While it is true that propaganda refers to a unfair way of transmitting information, as i explained on Talk:Gay agenda the fact that propaganda is an unfair way of transmitting informations about LGBT doesn't transfer it's negative attribute to LGBT itself. For example: Christian propaganda, while we can all agree Christianity isn't a bad thing, when it is promoted through propaganda, Christian propaganda becomes something unfair. Everything was peaceful until this point before, this used started calling me a "bigot" here [267] (he used the edit description to insult me by saying bigots not welcome) and deleted my message from his talk page where i was trying to discuss the issues with him so we can solve it. The word "bigot" is a slur [268] meant to categorize me as someone exaggerated and unreasonable and it offended and discouraged me. The 2nd thing this user did was to call people who oppose same-sex extremists here [269]. Why would someone use such a bad word to describe others who have different opinions, taking in consideration the European Court of Human Rights stated that art. 12 of ECHR guarantee the right to marriage only to heterosexual couples and countries have the freedom to legalize same-sex marriages or not. Just because someone has a different opinion on a issue, it doesn't make him extremist when he is not opposing any fundamental right. This user's attitude was aggressive towards me meant to discourage me and intimidate me by associating me with extremists. I am really sorry if I didn't address the complaint right, but i rarely edit on Wikipedia and I am not an administrator and i have no power when it comes to someone as Bonadea who is an administrator. --JOrb (talk) 15:28, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Just to make things clear: I have never pretended to be an administrator. --bonadea contributions talk 15:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

@Bonadea: Basically, it means that JOrb would vote Support, thought they already were one :D ——Serial 16:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I considered you an administrator by mistake since I thought mostly they are the ones who have the power to delete an Wikipedia page.--JOrb (talk) 15:41, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Hold up. You're arguing at Talk:Gay agenda#What has Wikipedia become? that the word "propaganda" isn't necessarily a bad thing, just a plain old neutral word to describe something. Now here, "bigot" is always a negative, no doubt about it. So which is it, do words matter or don't they? Woodroar (talk) 16:12, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I suppose you don't know word "propaganda" is used on many Wikipedia pages XD. It's not forbidden word, there s even a dedicated page for it - Propaganda.--JOrb (talk) 17:51, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I was going to type up something longer, but realized that it's a waste of time. This ANI report is a nothingburger. The best outcome you can hope for, JOrb, is that it is closed without action. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:38, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion, sir! I am waiting to see other opinions, maybe some that are supported by arguments. Cheers! --JOrb (talk) 17:54, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

while we can all agree Christianity isn't a bad thing Hmmm. Grandpallama (talk) 19:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

that's one of the things I decided against typing up above. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:00, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Please keep your hate towards Christianity out of Wikipedia. Thanks you! --JOrb (talk) 21:10, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

JOrb, I identify as Christian, but I thought the same thing. The above good editors (and myself) aren't hating on Christianity, they are joking about our vast diversity and, well, inability to agree on anything at all. Please WP:AGF. Happy editing! 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 21:15, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Just because someone has a different opinion on a issue, it doesn't make him extremist when he is not opposing any fundamental right. Grandpallama (talk) 21:17, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Freedom of religion is a fundamental right, same-sex marriages aren't. That's what ECHR decided.--JOrb (talk) 21:27, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I would be careful when invoking judicial or quasi-judicial decisions: English Wikipedia encompasses many jurisdictions, and they don't always reach the same conclusions. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:32, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

You should stop talking. Jorm (talk) 21:34, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I was expecting someone to say that ECHR is only for Europe, but at the same time, have you identified another international court and another international convention of human rights that give people more rights that ECHR? On other continents, even the right to life isn't fully protected since they allow death penalties. Also, the reason why I invoked it is because only because of ECHR we talk about LGBT rights.--JOrb (talk) 21:41, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

So, to be clear, your position is that all law other than the ECHR is invalid? Dumuzid (talk) 21:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

My point is that no other international convention guarantees a larger protection of human rights than ECHR. You can check this fact.--JOrb (talk) 21:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

@JOrb:, if my colleagues were not clear enough: This is going to stop now. If you can not stop yourself, I will help you with a block.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:50, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Since it continued, I blocked indef per WP:NOTHERE. --Ymblanter (talk) 21:55, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

JOrb, Bonadea is not an administrator but I am. Your comments here are coming across as offensive for the sake of being offensive, and not for any purpose that would improve the encyclopedia. Take your bigoted arguments against non-heterosexual relationships to some other website, they are not welcome here. If you continue this, you will be blocked. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh dear. I stayed mostly away from Wikipedia last night, and had an early night so most of this discussion happened while I was asleep, but it looks like my input wasn't needed here at all. FWIW, I tend to have a fairly high tolerance for other non-native speakers of English (and native speakers of different English varieties) when it comes to different discussion styles and/or misunderstandings based on semantics, but this was way beyond that. --bonadea contributions talk 07:13, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

JOrb topic ban proposal

Since JOrb has already appealed their block and seems not to understand why it was done in the first place, indicating they are likely to continue this disruptive line of argument if unblocked, I propose that they be indefinitely topic banned from all pages and discussions concerning LGBT matters. They had already been warned about discretionary sanctions for gender disputes but I think a broader ban is warranted here.

• Support as proposer. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 22:09, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support an indefinite site ban. Point 1 of WP:NPA prohibits abuse based on gender identity. TrangaBellam (talk) 22:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• I feel like this is pretty much moot; based on their most recent comment on their talk page, even if they try another unblock request I doubt it will be accepted. Not opposed, but it feels a bit like a dogpile. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 22:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support I have just declined their unblock request. In the very unlikely even that they are ever unblocked they certainly need to be banned from any topic related to gender including LGBT. But I support and prefer an indefinite site ban by the community. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 22:41, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support any of the above.--Jorm (talk) 22:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support This person is not capable of editing LGBT topics neutrally. This is just another attempt to WP:RGW. I have no opinion on a site ban. Scorpions13256 (talk) 23:04, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

  More like Wronging Great Rights. EEng 20:55, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

  Whack! Scorpions13256 (talk) 00:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support site ban per Chillum. ——Serial 07:16, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support site ban - User is clearly NOTHERE and we don't need someone who is just here to start arguments that LGBT people don't deserve human rights protections. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:09, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support a Site Ban. At this point, since the subject has already been indeffed, discussion about any lesser sanction is probably pointless, but a site ban will affirm the block (and constrain unblock requests). Robert McClenon (talk) 19:39, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support Site ban, to affirm the block.Jackattack1597 (talk) 21:55, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support site ban per Hand and Robert. Oh dear. -- a lad insane (channel two) 22:57, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support their edits are not productive or useful in a collaborative environment. Also, WP:NOBIGOTS really shouldbe re-targeted. Star Mississippi 17:54, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Comment Once in a while I think we should have a museum of boomerangs to deter people from opening threads like this. But then I think, Why stop them? It's so convenient when they walk themselves into the jail cell and practically beg us to slam the door shut on them. EEng 21:02, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, yes we should. Also perhaps an uninvolved admin can close this? There has not been any opinions offered in several days and I think there is a consensus. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 05:41, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Off-wiki canvassing, 'investigating' of AfD participants, at DRV

Hi all, can I please ask for more administrator eyes on the discussion at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 June 28? Baffled by the influx of new editors to the discussion, I did some poking around and found a post canvassing contributions on Facebook (link in the discussion). From that discussion, there was another post linked, where an editor started to 'investigate' the editors who !voted for delete, as well as the closer (myself). Can't say the whole thing sits entirely well with me, and as such, I would appreciate a few more eyes on the discussion as it develops. Semi-protection may be required at some point if the canvassing continues. Thanks in advance, Daniel (talk) 10:29, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

 Doing... things... Give me a sec. El_C 13:07, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Okay, I did the thing. El_C 13:15, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Considering that OlivierAuber is essentially running background checks and posting personal information regarding the people who voted delete, disciplinary action against him may be in order. DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 20:35, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I have already explained that this little investigation was motivated by the fact that the deletion of the P2P foundation article occurred precisely at the time when its founder Michel Bauwens was facing extremely violent personal attacks. I now think the two facts are unrelated and I am happy for that.--OlivierAuber (talk) 20:50, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

As this is a discussion that concerns you and Mitar, I pinged you both on your pages - Daniel probably should have done so when creating this. DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 21:03, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I wasn't discussing any specific editors, rather just asking for more eyes on the discussion there, hence why they weren't pinged. I was not aware who was doing the off-wiki canvassing and if they had Wikipedia usernames at the time. Daniel (talk) 21:14, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Note that my suspicions were reinforced by the fact that Michel Bauwens told me that his IP was blocked by Wikipedia. It still is. Does anyone have any idea why and how to clarify this situation?--OlivierAuber (talk) 06:43, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I disagree that my actions were canvasing because: it was not mass posting (I posted only to two places, here and here), my message is neutral (I am asking for people to leave comments, I even provided link to official instructions how to do so, without instructing what exactly to do), I disagree that audience is partisan (I invited a general population of existing editors and people who I think are experts on this topic, so that they can provide missing sources), and it was done with transparency (they were posted in public/open Facebook groups; they were not posted on Wikipedia itself, because relevant experts on the topic of the article in question do not have access to it, e.g., some reported that they have been IP blocked, which I think is a relevant specific reason not to use a talk page; moreover, for editors in question I communicate with through Facebook and I do not know their Wikipedia names and I even should not be trying to figure them out, so messaging them through Facebook is in my the most reasonable way). I think community around the deleted article was baffled about what is happening and I wanted to help them. I am not affiliated with the P2P Foundation. On the list of appropriate notifications it is listed that they are "Editors known for expertise in the field" and "Editors who have asked to be kept informed" which I think I did. Mitar (talk) 01:58, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

The editor apparently has NOT been notified per "How to respond to canvassing"? There seems to be a lack of understanding. I don't think pleading guilty by confession will pass as an excuse. Is there an exception that off-wiki canvassing, to hopefully change a result of something, is alright as long as there is transparency and neutrality? I don't think so. IP blocked editors do need to know about these things but there may be a transparency issue with "they were not posted on Wikipedia itself" as well as a potential sock or meat puppetry issue. The main issue with canvassing is that even if seemingly well-intentioned it is counter-productive. Stealth canvassing is what is present when one of the "Appropriate notification avenues are not utilized with good reasoning and concerns of potential Votestacking is also a concern. -- Otr500 (talk) 06:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

"My message is neutral" & "without instructing what exactly to do" - really???

• "The article on the P2P Foundation was deleted for not being notable, and the editors claim they could not find peer-reviewed articles attesting its role. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/.../Wikipedia.../P2P_Foundation 'However, such articles do exist. I would appreciate if anyone could connect to them, and point to, for example, the following 2: Prophets and Advocates of Peer Production. By George Dafermos. . Excellent introduction to the role of the P2P Foundation in the context of the re-emergence of a commons movement that is linked to digitally-enabled self-organization. Digital Commons: Cyber-Commoners, Peer Producers and the Project of a Post-Capitalist Transition. By George Dafermos. [6]: Excellent introduction to the theoretical and strategic work of the P2P Foundation." (emphasis mine) - certainly seems like the bolded part is, um, "instructing what exactly to do".
• "Olivier has done research on the wikipedia editors responsible for the deletions, it is quite instructive"

And from other people on your post:

• "If you want to overturn the deletion, then leave a comment. See instructions here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review... You can follow my example there. You can also add more references/links/comments in there, too." (emphasis mine)
• "Sounds like a nefarious attack.. P2P foundation is highly notable.. For many things.. But from populist pov, if only for where Satoshi first appeared! Just reinstate it.. But have a good look at who took that action." (emphasis mine)

Daniel (talk) 12:19, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Off-wiki matters are, ultimately, the domain of the Arbitration Committee or Trust & Safety. El_C 14:23, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, if you want to overturn the deletion, leave a comment: provide requested information, as per instructions. I think you yourself said that if they provide two sources pointing to notability, that would change the decision, no? And please, I am claiming I have not instructed anyone, I am not claiming nobody suggested to no editor what to do. Moreover, the examples you are listing in fact are providing sources you are searching for and suggesting they should be propagated to the Wikipedia itself. Isn't this exactly what the original problem was? How is that canvasing? It is engaging community to obtain relevant sources to support the notability question. Mitar (talk) 16:05, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

If you had simply linked up the sources on the deletion discussion page, it would have been fine, as it would have been based comprehensively on the strength of your case. Instead, you rallied supporters - whether you see it that way or not - and drowned a discussion with your allies, of both the versed and inexperienced variety. It gave the false pretense of there being consensus in your favor and as a result, you killed your own deletion review. Calling attention to your case, leaving an open door for biased community members to intervene, is a boilerplate definition of canvassing. DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 00:58, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

@OlivierAuber: if Michel Bauwens was physically attacked that's horrible. Physically assaulting someone because of their views is never justifiable. However that's a largely a matter for the police. And to suggest someone in the AFD was responsible for physically attacking Michel Bauwens is beyond ridiculous. Please don't make such a ridiculous claim again. Especially since the number of participants is so small, it's very close if not over the personal attack line. Nil Einne (talk) 14:48, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

That's not what they were suggesting, Nil. Rather, it seems there's a harassment campaign against this individual. That speaks to the motivation of the brigading. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:14, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

MordvinEvgen and sex difference information

• MordvinEvgen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• GBFEE (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

MordvinEvgen traverses sex difference pages and closely related pages to synthesize and bias information. He adds sentences that shouldn't be found in a children's book, let alone an encyclopedia. For example, in the empathy article, he said "and the correlation of the chromosome with only the female sex is controversial, which is contrary to common sense."[270]

He's gotten multiple warning about the way he edits.[271] People have told him to stop adding his own analysis and conclusions to articles and to leave primary research behind him, but he continues.

Here are some recent challenges to his edits.[272][273][274]

When I said to him today that he should stop, he said he will continue. He severely insulted me and threatened me, saying, "YOU also don't publish the meta-analysis effect sizes, which is a dumb publishing method. You don't even have enough brains to open meta-analysis and arrange everything humanly. I said your edits will be removed in the future. If you think you will stop me, good luck..."[275] He put emphasis on "WILL."[276] — Preceding unsigned comment added by GBFEE (talk • contribs) 22:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I have added userlinks to the top of this report. Hopefully both parties will try to avoid WP:Personal attacks such as 'don't have enough brains'. Sincge GBFEE's account was just created today (June 30) I hope they are aware that Wikipedia has procedures for resolving disputes. EdJohnston (talk) 23:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I think procedures for resolving disputes with MordvinEvgen are bound for failure unless he doesn't rail against the Wikipedia "system" (his words) when it doesn't work the way he wants it to. He says I don't know science.[277] Someone should tell him good science isn't what he does. If it was, his edits wouldn't keep getting removed for synthesizing the research and less than optimal sourcing, and he wouldn't keep getting warnings about them. He says I'm removing stuff I don't like, but I encourage people to look at his edits, many of which have been challenged by editors because he cuts what he doesn't like and inserts his commentary or own framing of the research. Multiple complaints from others about his edits are in the page histories. He's complained that I said he uses his personal commentary. He does. None of the sources say anything like "contrary to common sense"[278] or "It should be noted right away that the differences found in the brain do not necessarily mean differences in cognitive parameters." or "However, it is worth noting that evolutionary theories rarely reflect the true nature of the differences."[279]

He says he plans to modify all of my edits. If he does, more of the same will come from him. He doesn't care for secondary and tertiary sources. Look at his newest complaint about tertiary sources, Wikipedia's unwillingness to give primary sources the same mouthpiece, and thoughts about me.[280] He calls me his opponent and an "it", and says he "can give a lot of examples of the failure of both your system" and my behavior. Does this sound like a person willing to listen and defer to the reviews of topics? He hasn't listened for three months! So what is the appropriate course of action for anyone to take regarding this editor if it's not to report him here? GBFEE (talk) 01:41, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Mordvin clearly has a lot of knowledge about some life science topics, but since his debut 32 days ago, he either hasn't quite assimilated some basic principles of verifiability and sourcing, or doesn't agree with them; likewise for some behavioral guidelines with respect to collaboration and civility. Most recently, as GBFEE pointed out in the OP, Mordvin has been mixing it up at Sex differences in psychology, in this case, with Crossroads. I don't expect all new editors to be on board and comfortable with WP:PRIMARY and WP:MEDRS within a month, but Mordvin has locked horns with various editors a number of times already on these points, and is way too smart to claim ignorance. C'mon, Mordvin; you can be a great editor; just a wee dash of humility, a willingness to learn the particular environment of Wikipedia, and collaborate with other editors, and you will be. It's easier to develop good habits while you're still relatively new here. It's best to avoid doing things that motivate other editors to want to spend their free time scrutinizing your activities and bringing them here to this board. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 06:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

• Good, someone opened a report on this user. I wasn't even aware of how widespread the problems were, but was considering opening a report if the issues continued. Admins need to take seriously what GBFEE says above. Here MordvinEvgen claims they were "adding more secondary sources and removing the primary ones"; in fact they did the opposite. After I reverted them, they made these edits, with unsourced original research and editorializing like "it is clear that stereotypes, expectations, and other social parameters can qualitatively influence...learning disabilities"; they also, for example, added a whole paragraph at the bottom using primary sources to argue against secondary ones, which is clearly against WP:MEDRS. At User talk:MordvinEvgen, you can see they have been told to not do this sort of thing for months. You can also see there from their arguments that they seem to give excessive weight to their own POV and edit based on their own ideas or findings. WP:Competence is required; this user should not be editing this topic area if they're going to keep adding primary sources and arguing on that basis. Pre-existing primary sources (that are not merely being cited alongside secondary sources) don't need to stay; but secondary academic sources (books and review articles) carry far more WP:WEIGHT than individual studies, of which there are many and which can easily be cherry-picked. They also should be more honest in their edit summaries and avoid personal attacks. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:22, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm allowed to link to his IP address here, but he made an edit as an IP address a few hours ago and I reverted him a few minutes ago because the tiny piece he removed is in one of the resources. I think he's waiting for this thread to end, and then he'll go back to doing what he does. GBFEE (talk) 21:52, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Christoforos18

Christoforos18 (talk · contribs) - blocked previously for adding unsourced information to BLPs and disruptive editing; talk page littered with warnings for the same; still at it today. Worth a longer block? GiantSnowman 20:07, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps a main-space block? It appears in the 6 years since they started editing they have not once noticed that talk pages exist. 2001:4898:80E8:38:B5B4:7B2B:FABF:3D (talk) 22:49, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

• @GiantSnowman: I'd endorse that. If they haven't learned despite the warnings etc. (and 2 blocks), they clearly either are NOTHERE or there is cause for valid CIR concerns. I'd say probably worth an indef. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 01:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

@TheSandDoctor: I am under ER related to this so cannot block them myself... GiantSnowman 17:20, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

NorthBySouthBaranof - Misleading edit summary, deceptive editing, battleground mentality, personal attacks

In this edit [281], NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) wrote as his edit summary "I disagree with these removals - neither of the sections in question were unsourced or poorly sourced." This was in reference to the two sections "Doxing" and "Credibility" that I removed according to my understanding of WP:BLP. However, NorthBySouthBaranof also reverted four three subsequent edits I made, that had nothing to do with those two sections, and were simply an attempt to re-word this highly embarrassing article for Wikipedia into something approaching an encyclopedic tone. [282], [283], [284], and this experiment gone wrong [285].

I politely asked if he would not self-revert his deletion of my subsequent edits [286]. He declined. [287] Whilst of course simultaneously admitting that he was aware that he removed additional edits that he did not mention in his edit summary. "Your other edits are also at least partially objectionable" - seems to me, a more than partially objectionable justification for reverting someone's good faith edits.

And to cap it all off [288] he makes the ridiculous personal attack/accusation "That you personally want to drive sales traffic of Ngo's book to Amazon is not a permissible use of the encyclopedia". TomReagan90 (talk) 00:11, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd also like to emphasize, that I believe my deletion of those two sections was compelled by my close reading of WP:BLP: "Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral." Having a section on a journalist entitled "Credibility", and then just listing a series of attacks on his credibility - whether accurate or not - is not an appropriate tone for any encyclopedia article, let alone a BLP. TomReagan90 (talk) 00:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Given that you have repeatedly refused reasonable requests on the article talk page to justify or explain your proposed changes to the article in question beyond a vague hand-wave at BLP (without detailing exactly what passages and sources you believe violate the policy) and instead ran straight to the dramaboards, I think it's clear to disinterested observers who actually has a "battleground mentality" here.

Introducing external links to a book's Amazon.com sales page is not a minor edit, is clearly an attempt to drive sales traffic, and is clearly prohibited by policy. That you do not like me calling a spade a spade is neither here nor there. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:48, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

"is clearly an attempt to drive sales traffic, and is clearly prohibited by policy. That you do not like me calling a spade a spade is neither here nor there." - personal attacks continue. if only you knew my political allegiances! As I've said, for the third time now, I only heard of him in the last 18 hours or so, as a result of the Mumford & Sons debacle. So what is it you're accusing me of? Being on Ngo's payroll, or just a fanboy? TomReagan90 (talk) 01:13, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

What other reason could you have for including an explicitly-commercial link to buy a book on a particular bookseller's website? Do you just really, really like Jeff Bezos? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:17, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

That too. We're all in cahoots. TomReagan90 (talk) 01:19, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I described my justification perfectly in my edit summary. I quote it again, now, for the 5th, 6th time? "Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral." - TomReagan90 (talk) 01:09, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

No, you did not. You removed a 7,000-byte section with a multitude of reliable sources, including the Columbia Journalism Review, The Oregonian, and the literal freaking The New York Times. You removed a 1,000-byte section sourced to two reliable sources, Vox and The Independent. Neither of those sections are unsourced or poorly-sourced. The burden is on you to justify your removal, and by plain sight any editor can see that the material in question has reliable sources. It is not incumbent on other editors to read your mind to determine why you think the material is unsourced or poorly-sourced. If you are not justifying your removal under those terms, then there is no reason to remove it - rather, you should edit it, and explain your edits on the talk page. (And if you did not intend to justify your removal under those terms, why did you cite the "unsourced or poorly-sourced" policy section in your edit summary? It clearly does not apply to either section.) NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:30, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

No, the burden is on you according to Wiki Policy. WP:BLPUNDEL Under the heading of "Restoring deleted content": To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Wikipedia's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first. Furthermore, in case you didn't catch it the first 7 times: "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion... "The idea expressed in meta:Eventualism—that every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and that it is therefore okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape—does not apply to biographies. Given their potential impact on biography subjects' lives, biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times." And most specifically and importantly to the deletion of the two sections ("Credibility" and "Doxxing"): "Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral." TomReagan90 (talk) 02:42, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

You don't have a "good-faith BLP objection" here - the material is clearly reliably sourced and there are no claims that it is false or misleading. The sections in question do not facially violate BLP. That section of policy is not read to mean that anyone can unilaterally remove entire well-sourced paragraphs of biographical material from any biography merely by crying BLP and demanding that a formal consensus be established for each and every word of a biography. If that was the case, our biographies would be essentially barren.

And again, you keep citing a section of policy about removing material which explicitly applies only to material which is unsourced or poorly sourced. You bolded the wrong section. You just admitted you don't claim the material is unsourced or poorly sourced. Thus, that part of the policy does not apply. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:56, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, so state your contention clearly: you believe that having a section entitled "Credibility", that details all the ways in which various people have attacked his credibility as a journalist, is suitable for a journalist's BLP? You believe that? Yes/No? If "No", my removal was correct according to Wiki Policy, and your revert was in breach of Wiki Policy. If you think that is OK, that that is encyclopedic and not in breach of WP:BLP, then please, say so. Yes or No. Very simple Jack. TomReagan90 (talk) 02:58, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I do - I think the fact that a journalist's credibility has been widely disputed, and that certain evidence has been presented in support of those disputes, and that those disputes have been widely discussed in sources including The Columbia Journalism Review and The New York Times, makes clear that the question is certainly worthy of encyclopedic discussion. And if you disagree, the place to have that discussion is Talk:Andy Ngo because ANI does not resolve content disputes. If you can get a consensus of editors that the section is inappropriate, then your position will carry the day and the section will be removed. If you can't, it won't. Very simple Jack. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Thankyou for having the honesty (or stubbornness) to stand by your convictions. NorthBySouthBaranof believes the section/sub-heading titled "Credibility" should remain, as is. Stated here for the record. We'll see how that turns out for you. (Tough day at work I gather?) TomReagan90 (talk) 03:08, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Nope. Why would I work on a beautiful Thursday? Got girl-drink drunk, though. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:33, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

(P.S. neither the Columbia Journalism Review - if the original article ever even existed, no one seems to be able to source it - nor the New York Times article, say anything even close to supporting your preferred wording "Ngo's credibility and objectivity as a journalist has been extensively criticized". Even if those two sources did themselves "extensively criticize" him (which they don't) that still wouldn't support your wording. But I guess that's where you and me differ eh? I won't speculate as to what you do for a living, or make any accusations against you personally as you have done repeatedly to me, all I will do is state the obvious: we clearly have very different standards for what kind of language and what kind of sources should be included and relied upon in an encyclopedia. TomReagan90 (talk) 03:18, 2 July 2021 (UTC))

Why don't you just admit that your edit summary was deliberately misleading (containing 6 reverts, not 2), and that my 3 edits were constructive, an improvement, and you had no good faith reason to revert them? If not, tell us, tell us what's wrong with those edits? Are they not written in a much more neutral, encyclopedic tone? Why did you revert them? TomReagan90 (talk) 01:23, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Hang on. NBSB you're saying linking a citation to Amazon.com is improper? Can you explain that? Levivich 01:29, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

  Does this diff look like a citation to you, Levivich? Because it clearly isn't - it's a prohibited inline external link. Please read before commenting. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:30, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, that looks like a citation to me, in a section called "Bibliography". Since when is linking the title of a work in a bibliography section to Amazon or Google Books or whatever prohibited? Or is it because it's a work by the article subject, is that the issue? What policies are you referencing exactly? Generally, could you please explain your thinking instead of restating your position? Thanks, Levivich 01:39, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

  The original cite had a link to the neutral ISBN template, which has multiple international options to find the work; they reduced it down to Amazon.com (which of course is useless outside the US for everyone else). Linking to one seller of a product clearly violates WP:PROMO. Nate • (chatter) 01:41, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

  Have you never read WP:ELNO #15, Levivich? It's right there in black and white - promo inline links to single bookselling companies are deprecated and have been for... decades? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:44, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

My $0.02: you can put the book in the bibliography - that's not the issue. The issue is that you added it in the form of an external link, something that is explicitly forbidden by WP:AMAZON. And as for the accusation of advertising, I'll assume good faith on your part, since there's no evidence of intentional advertising. MiasmaEternal^TALK 01:43, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

@MiasmaEternal: I personally could give approximately two-fifths of F.A about the linking edit - which I admitted above was an experiment gone wrong... and how in god's name am I supposed to know that such a thing as WP:AMAZON exists?! (I've made 200 edits in like 18 months, such is my Wikipedia career). What I would appreciate comment on from established editors, is the fact that NorthBySouthBaranof deceptively mass reverted my contributions, by attaching a deliberately misleading edit summary, and downgraded the quality of the article - the precious lede in particular - without any justification. He continues to refuse to provide any justification, because it's clear to anyone who looks at the edits, that they are an improvement towards establishing some semblance of NPOV. And he's also accused me three times now of having some personal or financial stake in Ngo TomReagan90 (talk) 01:56, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

First time I've seen WP:AMAZON (or WP:ELP)-- thanks for pointing to that. @NBSB nevermind, this was the explanation I was asking for. Levivich 01:48, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I think that a WP:BOOMERANG may be in order here. If you're going to remove several sections of reliably sourced content, then you'd better be prepared to explain why exactly they're poorly sourced rather than just copy-pasting long passages of policy and expecting that to suffice. It's also concerning to see accusations of "downgrading the quality of the article" as if their edits are automatically better than someone else's. Judging by their misunderstanding of neutrality, it may be wise for TomReagan90 to stick to less difficult articles, refrain from "experimenting" with adding e-commerce links and avoid mass reverting until they have a stronger grasp of how things work around here. –dlthewave ☎ 02:29, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for that, very constructive. Another personal attack. (P.S. It may be boring to read, but Wiki Policy is actually very well thought out, a lot of work has clearly gone into it. Please, just read WP:BLP, the whole thing, and then come back and argue - on the merits of content and policy - what I did was wrong) TomReagan90 (talk) 02:46, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, our polices are well thought out. However, you can't just cite policy and delete something with no further explanation. You must at least explain why the material you removed is a violation of policy, not simply assert that it is. This is what Dlthewave is trying to impress upon you. Simply replying with "read BLP" is not helpful at all. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:23, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposed boomerang

I would like to formally propose a boomerang block or ban for TomReagan90. I tried handling their related requests at the Biographies of living persons noticeboard, when I and another editor pointed out a fundamental flaw in their argument they responded by removing our posts [289]. From what I can see if we’re talking about "Misleading edit summary, deceptive editing, battleground mentality, personal attacks” then the shoe fits TomReagan90 much better than it fits NorthBySouthBaranof (if it even fits at all). They’re also on the BLP noticeboard complaining about the supposed “clear breach of WP:BLP" over Ngo while at the same time using their user page to host disparaging comments e.g. "fringe publicity hungry hacks” about a living person comparable to Ngo. At a bare minimum they clearly don’t understand our BLP policy and refuse to learn about it, if that refusal to learn continues then the community really has no option other than to find them WP:NOTHERE. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

It was an edit conflict. I didn't intend to remove your post/s. Look: https://ibb.co/njswzxT That's the article that comes up for me, no mention of Ngo. That's where the confusion arises from. And my User Page is not an encyclopedia article. Standards are very different, I'm sure you'll agree. TomReagan90 (talk) 16:36, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

*WARNING: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO OPEN LINK ibb.co just tried to nuke me with malware and is on the known threats list of my institution. [[User:Horse Eye's Back|Horse Eye's::::You have identified the source that is being misrepresented. It's blindingly obvious that this editor is doing so, and, rather than using a lousy browser, has edited the output to misrepresent the source. Yes, calling someone a liar is a very serious accusation, and I am being very serious. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:56, 2 July 2021 (UTC) Back]] (talk) 16:51, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

ibb.co is an image hosting site. I just checked the link out in a VM and it's fine. That being said, bad actors have used security flaws in the site to propagate malware, and it should probably be added to the blacklist here, for that reason. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:08, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

You clearly accessed the right article [290] you just refused to read the whole thing. You knew what the first sentence was (it does not mention Ngo), but then you claimed that there was no mention of Ngo in the article which just isn’t true. WP:BLP applies to *all* pages on wikipedia, including user pages and talk pages. It is the exact same standard. This is looking highly disruptive at this point, either that or we have a WP:COMPETENCE situation in which case you still need to either shape up or ship out. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:42, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'd try refreshing the page, turning off adblock, or even a different browser. For some reason, I couldn't scroll at all the first time I loaded the page. But the CJR source does say discredited provocateur Andy Ngo about 3/4 of the way through the article. Woodroar (talk) 16:44, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

In any case, if you come across a reference that you can't access (be it a book you don't own, a paywall you can't afford to pay, a broken link, whatever), the appropriate course of action is never to simply remove the content. You should assume that the editor who wrote that section was able to read the source and use it appropriately. And in this case, they even quoted the relevant passage in the reference! –dlthewave ☎ 16:53, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree. But I am reading a completely different article! It has no mention of Ngo. None. The quote is not found. I can post you the screenshots of every single word. I can copy and paste the text of the whole article. It was not a mistake on my part, or your part, it obviously shows different content to different audiences (many news websites like the BBC, the Daily Mail (well, not really news is it...), etc, do the same thing, automatically, without you being aware of it. You can't assume that the content you have access to in the United States is identical across the globe. TomReagan90 (talk) 17:04, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Here: https://imgur.com/Tz0QVAj You can see from my Search function, Andy Ngo does not appear. TomReagan90 (talk) 17:13, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

There is a minor rendering discrepancy on the right side of that search box. It could be due to a video card issue, but it could also be due to the search box being edited. I'm not confident that it's the latter, but it remains a possibility.

Regardless, Tom got the idea of posting screenshots from me, because I earlier posted a screenshot showing that the name certainly exists in the article. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:37, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Pretty sure it is edited. That same page has "ongoing" in the article twice that should have shown up in the search. SamStrongTalks (talk) 17:44, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's edited. It's just that he has deselected the edit box and you cannot see the cursor. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts (which is, let's face it, an even money bet these days) that's what's in the edit box is "Ngo[BLANK SPACE]", which would explain it not finding "ongoing"... but also explain it not finding the actual invocation of Andy Ngo in the article, as his name is followed not by a space but by a comma. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:55, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

That's actually the exact possibility I had in mind when I mentioned the possibility that this is just a graphical glitch. Finding a substring in a larger string is such an old and well-tested function that the odds of a browser glitch causing this are virtually null. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:12, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support I just encountered this conflict at WP:BLPN. Tom's claim that North's edit summary was misleading was clearly false, and Tom removed sourced content claiming that the source didn't support it, despite the fact that the source is quoted in the citation. Tom claimed the link was dead, then after being shown evidence that it was not, changed his story to claim that the link was not about Ngo, except in doing so, demonstrated that they had, in fact, found the link functional, and found the correct article, but merely refused to read beyond the first sentence, apparently. I don't know whether this is the result of POV pushing or simple incompetence, but in the span of less than an hour, Tom's demonstrated a complete inability to edit controversial articles. A page block or topic ban might be appropriate. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:52, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what you're playing at. You just blanket reverted 15 of my edits. Each of which I gave a precise, policy-sourced justification for in the edit summary. And the article is supposed to be on 1RR. All I've received is accusations of bad faith, lying (I'm not seeing the same article, how many times do I have to say it), and reversion of every single one of my contributions. Fair enough, I'm done, you beat me. I give up. I've lost the will to live. Congrats. Improving the article was obviously of no concern to you, just hounding a presumed, assumed political enemy? (If only you knew my actual political allegiences! Never mind my nationality!). I certainly won't make the same mistake again. Ciao, Ciao! TomReagan90 (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support BLP topic ban or block per CIR. Even after being told to read the source and where to find the quote, TomReagan90 is still playing dumb and denying that it's there. This editor has no business working on BLPs. Woodroar (talk) 17:26, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Cheers buddy! (see screenshot above) WP:BITE TomReagan90 (talk) 17:40, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw the screenshot. I'm guessing it's a browser issue, what with the badozens of tabs you've got open, or maybe Chrome being, well, Chrome. Which is why I (politely) suggested refreshing and trying a different browser, but also told you where in the article the quotation was located so that you could actually read it. That you still haven't just, you know, read the article with your own eyes says you're not ready for editing contentious articles like this. Woodroar (talk) 17:54, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, when I accessed the article from a New Zealand VPN, Andy Ngo was still there. It was the first time I have ever looked, so not a cache issue. Not sure what to make of it, quite honestly. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 19:12, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support block as not here to build an encyclopedia. TomReagan90's userpage is an anti-Wikipedia diatribe containing a glaring BLP violation, which is ironic since this editor claims to be upholding BLP policy, which applies everywhere on Wikipedia. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:45, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support BLP topic ban or block, they appear to be either unable to read articles accurately, or willing to lie about it, neither thing should be involved in BLPs or Wikipedia in general really. SamStrongTalks (talk) 17:49, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support block Their recent comments at WP:BLPN, WP:3RR, Talk:Andy Ngo, User:TomReagan90 and here at ANI show that TomReagan90 has no faith in our processes, is not here to build an encyclopedia, and is unwilling to even take the first step towards improvement by acknowledging the issues with their edits.

The whole story about an article displaying differently for users in New Zealand sounds extremely fishy to me but even if we're generous enough to take it at face value, an editor who causes this much drama over a minor source access issue probably shouldn't be editing at all and certainly shouldn't be editing BLPs. –dlthewave ☎ 18:29, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanction against TomReagan90. This editor is plainly here to build an encyclopedia (he quotes Wikipedia policy, for heavens’ sake!) and is transparently honest. But he is an inexperienced editor who has wandered into a contentious article, and doesn’t instantly understand how Wikipedia works. Why would he? Wikipedia is a very odd place – which could do with a policy such as ‘assume good faith’. Oh, wait…. Sweet6970 (talk) 19:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

  I'd be more inclined to believe that if TomReagan90 showed any inclination to listen to people when they are telling them that they are wrong about the policy. It mostly appears that they are attempting to use policy as a sword to get their way in a content dispute. SamStrongTalks (talk) 19:13, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

What is the difference between attempting to use policy as a sword to get their way in a content dispute and attempting to apply policy in a content dispute? Sweet6970 (talk) 20:00, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

It's one thing to be a new editor and blunder into disputes. It's another to almost instantly open a dramaboard thread accusing a longtime, experienced editor of having a "battleground mentality" - when all that editor has done is ask them to justify and discuss their proposed changes to a contentious article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:25, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, being a longtime, experienced editor does not make anyone immune from having a “battleground mentality”. I don’t edit American politics because I don’t know enough about it (that’s my excuse, and I’m sticking to it) but I have a very strong impression that almost everyone who edits American politics develops a battleground mentality after a while, and loses the ability to assume good faith in anyone who disagrees with them on any matter. And your comment makes it sound as if on Wikipedia, all editors are equal – but some are less equal than others.

By the way, I see that the lede has recenly been changed to describe Andy Ngo as a journalist ‘per RFC’.

Sweet6970 (talk) 21:02, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Mostly that they don't seem to care about what the policy actually says or means, just that it might help them get the outcome they want. Seeing as several people have corrected them and they persist with the same incorrect assertions. SamStrongTalks (talk) 21:08, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Or perhaps they are just interpreting it in a way which is not informed by deep and lengthy experience of Wikipedia. After all, it is not obvious that on an article which has a 1RR restriction, it is permitted to revert 15 edits at once. I seem to remember reading some discussion somewhere about how unclear it is as to what actually constitutes one revert. I wouldn’t be confident that I would get it right. Sweet6970 (talk) 21:38, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Nobody should need any rule to tell them not to tell lies. That is something that most people learn from their parents well before they become capable of editing any web site. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:56, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

No. He is not "transparently honest". He is very transparently dishonest. Quoting policy says nothing about anyone's honesty or otherwise, but misrepresenting sources does. The policy on assuming good faith doesn't mean that we accept editors who tell bare-faced lies. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

What source is being misrepresented? If it’s the article about Nancy Cooper, then I tried it on my own browser (not sure if that’s the right word), and CtrlF found a reference to Andy Ngo buried deep in the article. When I tried it from TR’s link, it came up as nothing found. Having a lousy browser is not the same as being dishonest, and calling someone a liar is a very serious accusation. Sweet6970 (talk) 21:11, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

If you're talking about TR's ibb.co and imgur.com links, those are just screenshots of the beginning of the article. CTRL+F (or anything, for that matter) isn't going to find "Ngo". In any case, if you're having trouble accessing a source, you shouldn't be using that as an excuse to revert editors who do, and you certainly shouldn't double down when your error is pointed out. And yes, the accusations against TomReagan91 are quite serious indeed, which is why sanctions have been proposed. –dlthewave ☎ 21:32, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) You have identified the source that is being misrepresented. It's blindingly obvious that this editor is doing so, and, rather than using a lousy browser, has edited the output to misrepresent the source. Yes, calling someone a liar is a very serious accusation, and I am being very serious. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:39, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

It is not ‘blindingly obvious’ to me that the source has been deliberately misrepresented. It is perfectly possible that the so-called ‘misrepresentation’ was a technical mistake. And if the source is being obviously deliberately misrepresented, there is no point in doing so, because the supposed misrepresentation would easily be discovered. Your certainty that a lie has been told does not make sense. You need better evidence before you make such an accusation.

It’s late where I am, so I probably won’t reply any more tonight. Thank you to all for your courtesy to me in this discussion.

Sweet6970 (talk) 23:11, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I mean this with all due respect, but the argument that "your evidence must be false, because no one would deceive this way as evidence would be so easily obtained" is sort of like a Joseph Heller pastiche. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 23:24, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I would never attempt a pastiche on such a brilliant book. But I do sometimes feel that when I’m editing Wikipedia, I’m living in it. Sweet6970 (talk) 10:54, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose TR90 doesn't have a history that says they will be disruptive and it's understandable that a relatively new editor might make some missteps dealing with an article as controversial as the Andy Ngo article. That said, this should be a clear warning to tone it down, slow it down! It might be the case that the editors on "the other side" are biased POV pushing, policy ignoring jerks who just want to make very article... [blah blah blah]. But far more often, far more likely "the other side" is actually a good faith editor who thinks they are working to make the article more impartial and better overall. It's good when a controversial article like Ngo has opposing views so long as everyone makes a good faith effort to follow the rules like WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and critically WP:CIVIL. TR90, I think the ball is in your court. Take it break (you decide how long), then start thinking about what you think is wrong with the article. I'm happy to talk about it. I think editors like TFD would be and TFD is a very sharp editor who hopefully would be willing to help you take the things your gut is telling you is wrong and turn it into "wiki-law" (not WP:WIKILAWYER) compatible argument that can be used at the talk page to get things done. Yeah, that means sometimes things go slowly but the alternative is no change. So I oppose with the understanding that this can't repeat. Springee (talk) 02:00, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• Non-admin comment: I wondered why I had his user page on my Watchlist so I had a quick look through his contributions to remind myself and I rediscovered this trainwreck of an AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ash Sarkar. I leave it to others to decide whether this, taken in conjunction with the disparaging comment about Sarkar on his User page, is indicative of an ongoing pattern of disruptive and non-neutral behaviour with respect to politically sensitive BLPs. --DanielRigal (talk) 03:01, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
  • NAC: Not suggesting they're connected in any way, but their behavior on that AfD reminds me of E.M.Gregory (talk · contribs), who pursued the same type of WP:BLUDGEON against vote!rs to force an AfD into their chosen decision. Also, the dispute on the original page is now on AN3. Nate • (chatter) 04:30, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• NAC: I'm seeing some editors mention WP:CIR in the boomerang. The editor's clearly new; would them being assigned a mentor to teach them policies and provide feedback assuage concerns, or would this prove to be insufficient given other behavioral concerns? This could be coupled with a temporary topic-ban while the user develops skills in other topic areas. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 19:14, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

This editor doesn't need to be taught about Wikipedia policies, but simply be taught not to tell lies. That is the job of parents in the first few years of life, not of mentors for adults. It is not Wikipedia's job to rectify such things. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:10, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

NAC No, this is clearly someone trying to 'right a great wrong', and these type of editors abuse the noticeboards and processes to try to do so. Their userpage throws up a 'be kind they're new' template...followed by a couple tract rants against admnis with bolding and small blockquote templating that suggests they know exactly what they're doing here. Nate • (chatter) 22:30, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

• Blocked from Andy Ngo for three months. TomReagan90's editing of Andy Ngo is highly tendentious. In this edit, they removed the statement that Columbia Journalism Review has described Ngo as a "discredited provocateur" and also removed the source, an article in Columbia Journalism Review which calls Andy Ngo a "discredited provocateur". Their edit summary falsely states that "source doesn't even mention Ngo". Yes it does, and the sentence containing the phrase "discredited provocateur" is even quoted in the footnote itself, if one reads it. Then they go on to put "by whom" templates[291][292] on statements supported by eight sources giving examples of "whom". And so on. I have blocked them from the article for three months. This is per my own discretion; it's not an attempt to close this discussion, in case people wish to come to a more comprehensive determination. Bishonen | tålk 21:01, 3 July 2021 (UTC).

Support siteban, or at the very least a ban from BLPs. If you're deliberately attempting to misrepresent sources to fit a POV, that should be grounds for an immediate ban on editing the topic areas you're doing that in at minimum and the whole site at most. This behaviour is revealing about his actual goals here, and cannot be explained as anything but wilful and malicious ignorance. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^{Jéské Couriano} 08:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

User wants me to be blocked

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Hijiri88 (talk · contribs)

The section User:MjolnirPants: Incivility was already closed above with no action, however, the above user Hijiri88 continues to comment to try to get me blocked. The section was closed at 2021-07-01T17:11:57‎, since that time Hijiri88 continues to make comments like:

"Bishonen closed with no block but said that anyone who wants to open a new thread on TOA should feel free to do so / Do you wanna do the honours, or will I? FWIW, I've only filed two ANI reports in the last two years, and both of them were train-wrecks (Francis Schonken has since been site-banned, and his goons have mostly dispersed, but...)."

diff

I have no history of interacting with Hijiri88 prior to the discussion in that now-closed section. I request to not be blocked because I have not done anything to that editor that warrants a block.

TOA The owner of all ☑️ 07:21, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Further information:

Here are some relevant diffs of how Hijiri88 has been harassing me by following me to pages I have edited:

[293] [294]

Here are some attacks from Hijiri88:

[295][296][297]

And also, it should be noted that User:Ivanvector lifted a block on Hijiri88 with the warning "Hijiri, I'm sure you've been around the project long enough to realize you've already been given more chances than many editors get. I'm just going to say this bluntly: don't get in trouble again. Your next block is likely to be quite permanent." [298] User:Cullen328 had warned of such issues: "I believe it highly likely that, if this editor is unblocked, we will be dealing with another bitter conflict in short order." [299] User:Floquenbeam said: "Hijiri gets involved in conflict All. The. Time. It's his primary activity here." [300]

TOA The owner of all ☑️ 16:32, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• I have not done anything to that editor that warrants a block.[301][302][303][304][305][306] Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:44, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

@The owner of all:: Support. I see the comments of this Hijiri88 as nothing than like full "blackmailing" and "taking off the dirty shirts" as we, Bulgarians say. I don't see anything in the links Hijiri provided to warrant a block of an established editor like TOA, rather than a personal attack, digging compromising information from the past and overall ugly attitude to a contributing editor that gives all to the Wiki encyclopedia. Regards: Elan Morin Tedronai (talk)

I note that Elan Morin Tedronai has now been blocked indefinitely. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:09, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think Elan Morin Tedronai's comment was very helpful.

It is certainly not appropriate to insinuate that a user is a nazi. While they tried to back peddle and claim they did not make such an implication it was clear that they intended to imply that the 88 in the name was a nazi code. It is true that 88 is used as code for heil hitler(h is the 8th letter) but 88 is also a lucky number in Japan because it sounds like a word for wealth(I think that is it). This second explanation makes more sense and was what was provided by way of explanation.

The other comment that seems beyond the pale is "Also, Japan is non-white but they were not neutral during WWII. So there's that".

While the first comment may(but I doubt it) have been a legitimate mistake, I am really having trouble coming up with an innocent, ie not ugly, interpretation of this second comment. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 12:21, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

The Japan comment was not referring to Hijiri. The context was:

"my username, which is a reference to the year of my birth, as it is for probably 90% of Wikipedians who were born and raised in either [a] countries that were neutral during World War II or [b] largely non-white countries"

and I was clarifying that there are countries such as Japan that are largely non-white and are not neutral in World War II. It was not intended as an attack, I apologize if it was taken that way. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 12:28, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, I agree that it is not appropriate to insinuate that a user is a nazi. However, prior to that first "88" comment, Hijiri did suggest that I had a "bizarre interest in [MjolnirPants]" due to his "NONAZIS" page. diff Which is an even clearer insinuation from him about me being a nazi. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 12:35, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

The owner of all, Nice deflection, but it would be better to address your own behavior rather than pivoting to attacking Hijiri some more. You're in a hole here, you should stop digging. - MrOllie (talk) 12:42, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Ok, so what else needs to be addressed? I explained the Japan comment above. I apologize if it was taken as an attack. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 12:47, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

You might want to read Non-apology apology and rephrase that, for starters. - MrOllie (talk) 12:50, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

The Japan comment from me was not intended as an attack. I intended it as a factual addition to the discussion that was taking place. I apologize for that comment. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 12:53, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Assuming an 88 suffix automatically stands for HH would be a grave mistake. This is very obviously not the case for Hijiri88 (or Jesswade88, for example). El_C 12:32, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• That was already addressed in the above now-closed section. It should be noted that I have not said anything about the 88 other than that one comment. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 12:40, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• To clarify: what I wrote above was meant as a general observation. I've yet to actually review this matter closely enough to comment beyond that note. El_C 12:41, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• I was about to BOLDly NAC this but given this (for which I cannot find any good-faith reading whatsoever) and the growing amount of community time and energy that has been wasted on this, a block for TOA would be prudent just to let the rest of us catch our breath. -- a ^{they/them | argue | contribs} 12:41, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
  • But that's the point, if you believe that I should be blocked then I would like to address whatever reasons there are for the block. Your two examples are from a couple of months ago and they were about a content dispute for the article Snopes, and after those discussions I did not continue to edit war or otherwise commit any policy violations there, I conceded that the consensus was not on my side. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 12:47, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
  • And the Japan comment I already explained above, I apologize if it was taken as an attack. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 12:49, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• You said "I said that your username has 88 in it. Your interpretation of my statement is inaccurate", okay I will bite. What did you mean when you said that? HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 12:55, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I meant that his username has 88 in it. There was no attempt at a hidden meaning, it was simply me noting the irony that someone who thinks that I have a bizarre interest in MjolnirPants' "NONAZIS" page diff would have a username with 88. I did not make any further comments about the 88. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 12:58, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

  The owner of all - Your comment here could've been easily interpreted (or misinterpreted) to say that you were trying to imply a hidden meaning or that you believe that their username also infers WP:NONAZIS. That's what I interpreted at first until I took a moment to understand that the comment may have just been an attempt at biting back. Let's avoid comments like this in the future, both for your sake and for the sake of the project. :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:59, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

• It was no joke when I collapsed the '88' comment and the ensuing 'discussion'. People don't like being associated with Nazis. TOA doesn't like it. Hijiri88 doesn't like it. I believe both were insinuating things they have no evidence for (or at least were not willing to address directly), though obviously the way in which TOA did it (the '88' comment and the remark about Japan) was much more inappropriate. Either way, the answer is to retract such insinuations and to move on. There are far more urgent reports sitting on this page and being obscured both by the previous thread and this one. So yes, someone please close this. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 13:05, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I agree, I am willing to retract the 88 comment, the Japan comment, and whatever other comment may have been offensive. The section was already closed so it would be inappropriate for me to edit the comments themselves to strike them, however that is my intent. I apologize for those comments and I concede that they were not conducive to discussion. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 13:19, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Personally, I think closing this before the WP:BOOMERANG has a chance to come around is premature, judging from this and the previous thread. SamStrongTalks (talk) 13:26, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
    • Since the blocking policy states that blocks are to be preventative rather than punitive, I would like to know any reasons you think I should be blocked for so I can address those concerns. I understand that the 88 comment was unnecessary, but I also retracted it plus I didn't make any further comments about the 88, I was trying to stick to discussing the relevant issues. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 13:33, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

  The owner of all - Yes, it's correct that blocks should be applied in a preventative measure and not in a punitive measure. However, the blocking policy also states that blocks can be applied in order to "encourage a more productive, congenial editing style within community norms" and can be applied to "deter the continuation of present, disruptive behavior." Your comments above (diff, diff, diff) seek to apologize for the earlier comments you made and express your wish to retract them after community review. As of right now, I don't believe that blocking you would be beneficial nor would it prevent current disruptive behavior that is in-progress and occurring at this moment in time. That obviously can change depending on how you continue to interact with other editors. I strongly caution you to avoid making additional comments like the ones that were discussed in order to avoid more negative interpretations (or misinterpretations). You may not be engaging disruptively right now, but the behavior is expected to not continue. If it does, you certainly can be held accountable and administrative action would be justified to prevent further disruption. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:16, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

• I think a boomerang is appropriate, and I think that boomerang should take the form of an indef block per WP:NONAZIS, as this editor has both admitted to right-wing POV pushing and opposed an RfA because the candidate regrets having had fascist sympathies. You've got to read the question from Cryptic and the RfA candidate's response there to understand exactly what TOA is saying here; that they would have supported the candidate were they still a fascist. Also, I'm not above pointing out that a surprisingly large number of editors who have a vendetta against me (see here and here for evidence of that in TOA's case; I could dig up more diffs if needed, including making a list of indeffed editor's who've tried to get me sanctioned if really necessary, though I suspect that many admins will be pretty familiar with this trend) end up indeffed per that essay I wrote, which seems, itself, to frequently be the root cause of said vendetta. I suppose it doesn't hurt that I also regularly defend the scholarly consensuses at talk pages like Talk:Fascism and Talk:Race and intelligence; consensuses which undermine racist and far-right beliefs. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:59, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• I have avoided interacting with MjolnirPants ever since the Snopes dispute [although I have commented on my experiences with him on 2 other occasions when other editors posted to ANI about him] and I will continue to avoid interacting with him here. However I must clarify some things that he is saying about me. No, I do not support fascism. I have been very clear in my edits to specify that my beliefs are conservative/right-wing and not fascist. Also, my oppose to the RFA candidate was withdrawn, which some are failing to note. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 14:34, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

  I have avoided interacting with MjolnirPants The lie detector determined.... That was a lie. [307] [308] [309] [310].

  Oh, let's not forget when you asked for a brand new page on for you to try to get me sanctioned elsewhere. I mean, you're not even just forum shopping, you're literally trying to create new forums to shop. I don't think I've ever directly asked for an editor to be indeffed before, but in your case, with your fixation and your professed beliefs and reasons for being here, I don't think we have any place for you. As far as you withdrawing your opposition to the RfA: you said when withdrawing it that you still didn't even consider yourself neutral, let alone supportive. And I'd note that you also backtracked in the ANI thread where Jayron32 expressed interest in examining your behavior, only to then turn right back around and continue that behavior as evinced above. I'll admit that you've claimed you're not a fascist, but your initial opposition and even your withdrawal of that indicates otherwise. I'd also note that many fascists deny being fascist.

  I'm not going to keep arguing with you. I've said my piece, but I'll summarize for anyone here: TOA has repeatedly engaged in gaming the system, dishonesty and forum shopping in order to get an editor (me) known for his vocal opposition to neo-nazis and fascists sanctioned. You have expressed a favorable attitude towards fascism, and directly admitted to being here to push a politically right-wing agenda. All of these statements are facts, as evinced by the diffs I have provided in this comment and my last one. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:11, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

  • For context: Cryptic's question and Vami IV's response. I think interpreting that as opposing a candidate because they regret having fascist sympathies is stretching it a little (seems to me TOA is rather thinking of the candidate regretting supporting Trump). The idea that it is OK to oppose NPOV because it is biased to the left (it probably is), however, betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of what NPOV really is and how it works. Still, calling for a block per WP:NONAZIS based on that is effectively turning that essay into an excuse to block each and any self-professed conservative or right-wing editor. Block them for trolling, for hounding, for tendentious editing (if you can show that to be the case), I don't know, but not for supposedly being a Nazi. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 15:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

    It's not a stretch at all. The candidate never claimed to have become a liberal, or even a centrist. In fact, opposition to fascism and racism is something that once transcended political bounds. There's nothing in that answer which suggested that the candidate was no longer conservative, only that the candidate was no longer fascist. All the "clarification" TOA made after their initial oppose (note their comments upon "withdrawing" their oppose indicating that they still oppose the candidate, but won't push the issue) was done in the context of people reading their oppose the same way I did and asking TOA to expound on it. Also note that TOA backpedaled just as quickly at one of the ANI threads I linked above, only to come right back later with the same efforts. Given that context, they have both a history of lying in the face of pushback and motivation to lie in the face of pushback there. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:17, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

    • I don't oppose the NPOV policy, in fact I agree with it. When I say "input" I don't mean adding biased content to articles. Rather, I mean that in discussions such as on the talk pages of articles, there should be participation from right wing and conservative editors (for articles that are subject to left/right political bias). Unfortunately sometimes the participation is with the left wing on one side, and the left wing's perception of the right on the other side (as opposed to actual right wing beliefs). TOA The owner of all ☑️ 15:45, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• The village pump proposal linked by MjolnirPants diff is not about MjolnirPants specifically. It can be taken at face value, it is about incivility in general. I even cited an instance of incivility that did not involve MjolnirPants at all. (Also, please refrain from moving my comment to suggest that it is a reply to MjolnirPants. I am avoiding interacting with him.) TOA The owner of all ☑️ 15:24, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Also, once again, I did not violate FORUMSHOP. I reported edit warring to 3RRN/ANEW, then after that report was already made, there were incivil comments which I then reported to ANI. WP:FORUMSHOP says: "Where multiple issues do exist, then the raising of the individual issues on the correct pages may be reasonable". And there has been no "repeatedly", I have not done anything similar to FORUMSHOP since that incident. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 15:35, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

The village pump proposal ... is not about MjolnirPants[311][312] I am avoiding interacting with [MjolnirPants][313][314] I did not violate FORUMSHOP[315][316][317] Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• TOA, we're not going to preemptively vacate a discussion of your editing before it has even been opened. Moreover, editors are allowed to request sanctions against other editors for general disruptive behavior, not just for slights against them personally. I would suggest that you let this thread peter out, and only participate further at ANI if and when someone actually makes a proposal to restrict your editing privileges (and even then, just to quickly give your side of the story and then bow out). _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:04, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
  • It's in the original post that Hijiri and/or MPants were intending to get me blocked. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 16:32, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
    • And until they actually do start such a discussion, leave it be. As you can probably see from the tenor of this thread, trying to get ahead of this is likely to only make your life more difficult. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:58, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• @The owner of all: Pinging me in the "further info" you recently added at the top of this thread was not in your best interests. I saw this thread earlier, shook my head at what a timesink it was, and how likely it was to boomerang, and moved on. But if you are going to namedrop me and make it look like I somehow support your activities here, you should know that my gut instinct was to page block you from ANI for, I don't know, 3 months or something. My quick current estimate of the level of responsibility for the recent interactions between the 3 of you being so unproductive: MP 5%, H88 15%, you 80%. Go work on an article or something. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:45, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Most of my editing has indeed been to articles and to related discussions such as AfDs. I only added the further info section to provide evidence that Hijiri88 is failing to AGF regarding my edits as well as evidence that other editors have had issue with him. TOA The owner of all ☑️ 16:52, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
    • Yes, I was also pinged here and yes, I wrote that about Hijiri88 back then. But on this particular matter, I agree with Floquenbeam that The owner of all is about 80% responsible for this current train wreck. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 18:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• If TOA responds to this post, then I support a block. Otherwise close this and let's move on. Levivich 17:23, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Well, there's a conversation ender! ;) El_C 18:35, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

• Maybe anyone who replies here should be blocked? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:03, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

  I agree! Waitasecond... ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:35, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User gaming the system

So the AANES was recently extended protected to stop editors from flooding the page. A recent editor BerkBerk68 who clearly has Turkish nationalist reason for editing Wikipedia, has been edit warring extensively on the page, just see history. He willing fully doesn't understand edit warring the AANES has arbitrary sanctions of one revert per 24 hours. He has been notified about this twice, the page was recently extended protected indef and BerkBerk68 proceeded to game the system, see immediately after page protection he starts making a flood of edits on his user-page. Des Vallee (talk) 14:15, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I am not personally a nationalist. I am not fully Turkish either. As I mentioned in my old page, I have Zaza/Kurdish ancestry. ( my old page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:BerkBerk68&oldid=1030586534 ) however, in Des Vallee's page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Des_Vallee), there are ideological userboxes related to the topic. such as "This user is a libertarian socialist." or "This user supports Democratic Confederalism in a free Kurdistan." (I don't oppose his ideologies, I am just answering.) So, it is not me who is moving with ideologies.

in terms of one revert per 24 hours rule, I violated it only once (which is already reported to Administrators) when I was not sure about the system. When I understood the system, I never violated any rules. BerkBerk68 (talk) 14:36, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

BerkBerk68 The whole Zaza Kurdish thing is strange and is completely unrelated to the topic. It's not userboxes, userboxes are completely fine it's the general way you edit war, add content and game the system, see 1 and 2. You can't re-add content unless you have consensus even if the 24 hour time period ends, you are not allowed to have a firm against consensus on the talk, and keep re-adding content, it's not allowed, see the edit warring policies and the revert rule. Des Vallee (talk) 14:56, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Des Vallee Yeah, I see. after this stage I won't edit the page and will discuss at talk page. However, in case of I don't get any answer in 24 hours, I guess I have rights to count it as "didn't answer" and editing. Also I mentioned my Zaza Kurdish ancestry to prove that I am not moving with a specific ethnicity's nationalism. However, I couldn't understand what exactly did you mean by "strange". BerkBerk68 (talk) 15:49, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• BerkBerk68, I've revoked your EC user right. I don't know why you thought doing that was okay, but it wasn't. El_C 16:29, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

El_C Okay. How can I take it back? how much edits do I need to make again (with a correct way) or is it possible for me to take the pass again in future? BerkBerk68 (talk) 17:59, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

BerkBerk68, you can't take it back. You'll have to to attain the WP:500-30 tenure again, and this time, do so legitimately. Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out to you that you're fast approaching a broad WP:KURDS/WP:SCW topic ban. El_C 13:19, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Mass cross-wiki creation of nonsense pages by anons and registered users

Hi, I was initally alerted to this at Wikipedia:Edit_filter/Requested#Long-term_addition_of_nonsense_pages. I then looked through Wikipedia and noticed this rubbish was on dozens of pages here. I request an admin delete them all.
List of pages:

• User:OswaldCyrano/mixing-sailors.js
• User:Croobatch
• User:SteveRadclown/mixing-sailors.js
• User_talk:2A04:CEC0:1054:8B1C:0:53:B0EA:1901
• Draft:OIL_AND_CLOWN_COLORS

aeschylus (talk) 16:04, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Remnants of Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 180. DMacks (talk) 17:45, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

points at WP:G3. GeneralNotability (talk) 17:46, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I nuked these (and from them a few others, based on BEANS). Is there a way to include userspace .js in Special:Search or other content-search tools? DMacks (talk) 17:52, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

DMacks, you can search for .js pages in userspace from this search settings. Expanding the advanced search option below the search bar gives several options to narrow down the search. For example, adding username to "Subpages of this page" field will list all .js pages of that user. ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 13:40, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Weird...I had been using the All namespaces checkbox along with insource: and .js pages that I knew had the string were not coming up. DMacks (talk) 13:51, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Previously blocked user making weak edits

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Probecks (talk · contribs)

Repeatedly making weak/non-improved edits (e.g. replacing commas with dashes) and making negative comments towards editors (calling me a "hateful individual" in response to reverting his/her edits). This user was blocked from editing last month as the result of personally attacking or harassing an editor. MetalDiablo666 (talk) 23:45, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

These edits are not weak. Just because I am not adding sources doesn't mean I am not making the articles better by correcting punctuation and sentence structure by creating active rather than passive voice and adding much-needed distance. These articles read in large part as written by fan club members. I am not although I am listening to the material and enjoying it. Placing a positive change on these articles helps me feel like I am making a contribution. I am sorry if that offends certain editors who have nothing better to do but wreck my efforts. Maybe someone with "devil" in their user name shouldn't be allowed to do that. we have enough devils in the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Probecks (talk • contribs) 23:51, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Blocking for a week, if it resumes this'll be an indef. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:00, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Personal attack by Huji

User:Huji called me an LTA here, and I consider that a serious personal attack. LTAs are blocked and locked, not granted admin bit and access to VRTS. 4nn1l2 (talk) 02:13, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

It would only be a touch more believable if they actually named which LTA you were supposed to be and what evidence they had. As it stands, it is frivolous. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 02:56, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I think we need to wait for User:Huji to respond here. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 06:35, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

An LTA on fawiki may be granted admin rights in another wiki.

4nn1l2's block log on fawiki should be self explanatory. I can also share his main account ——— which is indef blocked ——— with you but I would do it by email (let me know which one of you wants to receive that email); that account's name matches his real life name and despite him being an LTA, I still prefer not to make that information public here. huji—TALK 12:38, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Be careful with that block log as there are many unblocks their too. They block users over petty things such as using the word "ridiculous", using the English term "Whac-A-Mole", and now raising a Palestinian flag on the userpage (which is why we are here on Jimbo's talkpage).

If I'm an LTA as you claim, block me as soon as possible on fawiki and we solve this over there. Talk the talk, walk the walk.

During my early days as a Wikipedian ten years ago, I made a mistake creating some socks, and got blocked for 6 months under the username User:Mondephile and after my block expired and I was in good standing, I made a clean start. Now, this user wants to shame me for my clean start and what I did over ten years ago as a teenager. Starting from 2020, they started blocking my current account over the most frivolous things. 4nn1l2 (talk) 13:14, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

@HighInBC: I respectfully oppose this closure. I don't expect any actions against Huji, but I do expect the claim be taken back. Otherwise, they feel more confident to label me as an LTA from now on. We have been interacting for over 10 years almost every week, and now they call me an LTA for the first time here on enwiki where people are unaware of the fawiki's atmosphere (a rather small wiki), just because I have dared to inform Jimmy Wales how terribly fawiki is managed. The whole story is much more complicated. I own up to my past mistakes including creating socks (mostly innocuous and out of naivety) dating back to a decade ago, but I don't accept people calling me an "LTA". How can a "LTA" contribute more than 60K edits, make 20 featured/good articles/lists, and become the first winner in an ArbCom election (fa:ویکی‌پدیا:انتخابات هیئت نظارت/دور هفتم/نتایج)? As far as I know, LTAs are blocked and even locked immediately. Huji has the necessary tools to block me there. Why doesn't they act appropriately? I am also an admin on Commons and a VRT agent on Commons, fawiki, and enwiki.

Regarding my recent blocks, some of them have been reversed by other admins and some of them have been cancelled by the fawiki arbcom. One admin has been banned from taking any admin actions against me indefinitely and I have opened another case about my latest block (fa:ویکی‌پدیا:تابلوی اعلانات هیئت نظارت/دوره یازدهم/Samuel T.Owen (چهارم)) in which I anticipate the blocking admin be admonished or de-sysoped. 4nn1l2 (talk) 11:54, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay I have removed the closure. Good luck. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 12:11, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I updated my comment there: I struck through the word LTA (whose interpretation my be subjective) and added the word "sockmaster" instead which is more objective.

I had no intention to say something frivolous. I am sorry if my comment could be interpreted as such. I think the rest of the arguments above are unrelated to enwiki and should be discussed on fawiki. huji—TALK 20:44, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

User:104.32.200.138

• 104.32.200.138 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Pyrrhus of Epirus (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This IP editor persistently attempts to change the nationality of Pyrrhus of Epirus from Greek to Illyrian despite the article not supporting it and other editors such as User:Tpdwkouaa having reverted their edits. Temporary page block for this editor requested. Johnnyconnorabc (talk) 08:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC) Here, [318] here, [319] here, [320] and here [321] [322]. Johnnyconnorabc (talk) 08:44, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

The IP editor has not continued since 08:20 on 3 July. If they do so a block might be considered. This looks to be standard nationalist edit warring (arguing whether some famous person was Greek or Illyrian, without providing any actual sources). The IP is doing this kind of thing across multiple articles. EdJohnston (talk) 01:49, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Bot cyberbot is malfunctioning in Russo-Ukrainian War

Resolved

cyberbot is endlessly spamming the history with "changes" about adding a deletion discussion flag to the article. Sorry if this is the wrong place to report it, never seen this type of thing happen before. Jcmcc (Talk) 10:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

courtesy pinging bot operator cyberpower678 did I do this right?   melecie   t 10:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

At least it seems to have stopped. We should keep an eye on it until we know it has been addressed. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 10:43, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

This bug has happened before, last time at Spring_Championship_of_Online_Poker. Izno blocked it from the page to stop it that time. I wonder what causes it, and hope Cyberpower can shed some light. firefly ( t · c ) 11:43, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

It might have been caused by this bit of IP vandalism, which deleted half the AfD template but left some of the comments intact. When the bot re-added the template you were then left with 1 1/2 AfD templates on the page. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 12:30, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Good catch editor 91, I agree that may be the cause. Now that anyone reading this page knows how to cause this it should be fixed. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 23:02, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Persistent promotional disruption/vandalism at Watpracharangsan School

Despite page protection and warnings, see continued disruption today be Krisay90 (talk · contribs). 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 15:35, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

SethRuebens

SethRuebens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

SethRuebens is a single-purpose account whose only purpose is adding his personal accusation of plagiarism to Britannia (TV series).

SethRuebens began editing in December, 2019. All of his edits are about his insistence that Britannia (TV series) plagiarized his work. The sources he provides fail WP:RS (see related discussions at Dispute resolution, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 84#Britannia (TV series), and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 326#BGlobal Quoting Robin Mukherjee, as well Talk:Britannia (TV series)). SethRuebens was blocked 31 hours 24 Jul 20 for disruptive editing, blocked indefinitely from editing the article or its talk page on 31 Jul 20, then blocked for sockpuppetry 3 Aug 20. On 4 Mar 21, he was unblocked after an appeal to ArbCom (with a restrictions against editing the article).

SethRuebens resumed editing 8 Jun 21 at Talk:Britannia (TV series), posting the same arguments multiple editors rejected last year. He continued the arguments at Talk:Britannia (TV series) and RSN[323] this week, as well as disputing with Slatersteven on User talk:SethRuebens.

SethRuebens, who admits to being Ben Krushkoff, the person making the accusations of plagiarism, has made one minor constructive edit to Wikipedia not related to Brittania. SethRuebens is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia and is solely interested in promoting his claims against the show's creators. His tendentious editing has used up many hours of multiple editors' time as they try to explain WP:RS and why his personal websites don't suffice to support adding a criminal accusation against other people to an article. I propose a site ban for SethRuebens.

Note: I have set up news alerts for both the TV show and Ben Krushkoff; if reliable sources give coverage to the plagiarism claims, I'll add it to the article myself. Schazjmd (talk) 19:26, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Dear Administrators,

I was granted permission to re-join the site after the Arbitration Committee looked into this very matter. It was agreed, by them, that I could rejoin and make edits, and continue the debate on the talk page of the Britannia article, which is what I’m doing now. The fact that other editors don’t want to engage in a debate is not a reason to ban me! I have started to make edits on other pages (and as a language teacher, MA grad and someone who has been paid to edit others professionally published work, I am more than capable of doing so).

Please note, thousands of people across the world, including a number of subject experts and academics, agree with me that the article on Britannia is inaccurate: referring to Jez and Tom Butterworth as originally creating the series is simply not the truth. Naturally, as the person who has been accredited as creating the material which this show was substantially been based on, I object wholeheartedly to the article being left as is (as do others, even if they’ve had no experience of editing on here).

In the words of another user, quoting Wikipedia: articles should include facts on a subject that are of historical, societal, scientific, intellectual or academic significance. The letter from the Head of Scriptwriting at the UK’s leading Creative Writing course, and a number of other references from highly respected academics, supports the notion that this it is, unquestionably, a matter of academic and intellectual significance. How can a $100 million show based on plagiarism NOT be??

2000+ people have signed the petition supporting me on Change.Org. It is therefore also a matter of societal significance.

A three page article about the case, written by an IP and business law specialist, has been published in a national/internationally distributed business magazine. This is a tertiary, reliable, independent source.

I have noted that a small clique of editors have continually tried to ban me from the site, both before and now (including most of the names supporting a ban for me). WP:LAWYERING has been used at every opportunity, when nobody has been able to answer my questions on the matter. I have my own suspicions as to why. There are a number of vested individual and corporate interests who would want to keep the truth from being told: there IS a dispute over the creation of this show, Sky HAVE been served with a Cease and Desist Letter on the matter, and hundreds of thousands of people (at least) now know about it. Reliable sources have commented on it.

Attempting to ban me from the site and/or from making edits to Britannia’s talk page would be a clear breach of my right to freedom of speech and just supporting an article that is not neutral in its views. Why would anyone want to do that, especially when it’s been made clear that I have the support of the vast majority of people (almost exclusively) who have looked into the case and from a number of expert sources about this matter?

A very expensive legal battle will continue and this debate will go on. The only logic about stopping it from happening on the talk page is because certain people don’t want the truth getting out there. SethRuebens (talk) 13:19, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

SethRuebens, a few points I'd like to be clear on. First, and probably the most important: what did you mean when you wrote A very expensive legal battle will continue and this debate will go on? Are you suggesting that you will take legal action against the Wikimedia Foundation, or against individual editors here, if you were to be banned from this topic?

Second, you need to recognise that you have no freedom of speech on this website. As is made clear in the Terms of Use (which you agree to abide by every time you click 'Publish'), editing here in any form is a privilege which may be withdrawn. Freedom of speech is not a concept that has any relevance to this environment; you are not in a public forum, you are editing content on a privately owned website, hosted on privately owned servers. You are required to abide by the rules, or your editing privileges get revoked.

I haven't reviewed the sources myself, but it seems pretty clear that everyone involved in the dispute except for yourself (and a single new account created very recently with an exclusive interest in this subject, which is in itself rather suspicious) is of the opinion that the material is not well-sourced enough to be used on the page. Around here, we would normally call that a consensus to exclude the material. You would normally be expected to accept that and move on to editing something else. To be honest, you are giving the very strong impression that you are here to improve the encyclopaedia; I think that you are here to right an injustice, which is not our purpose. Is there anything you can say that might make me think differently? Girth Summit _(blether) 13:32, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Girth Summit, I was referring to the legal battle with Sky (UK) Ltd and the people who were responsible for taking my work, only.

In terms of my rights to edit on Wikipedia, I have been granted permission to edit the talk page of Britannia and continue the debate there by the Arbitration Committee, as well as edit other articles, which I am starting to do (which is really what I meant by 'freedom of speech'. WP:WIKIHOUNDING from a small clique of editors, is both disrupting to me and annoying: it's affecting my enjoyment of editing and debating, as are the threats to try and ban me based on my desire to discuss the sources in a fair and constructive way.

I am not responsible for the action of others here, but naturally I would be happy to hear others from outside the small clique (who are hellbent on keeping me from even discussing the matter) to join in. Who wouldn't

Here's a question for you: why do you think it's so important to a small group of editors to stop me discussing this issue on the Britannia talk page, when I'm not making any changes to the article itself? Even if what I'm saying annoys them (unintentionally) or they disagree with me, surely there is no need to kick up such a fuss or try to ban me using any means necessary. Either debate me with me or don't. SethRuebens (talk) 13:47, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

SethRuebens, thank you for clarifying the point about the legal battle.

The accusation of HOUNDING does not apply: you are not being followed from one article to another, all of your issues are coming from a single talk page, where you are not being allowed to get your way, and in continually arguing against consensus you are stretching people's patience.

Freedom of speech, and the lifting of a block, are two very different things. Arbcom lifted the block on your account, but that action does not give you licence to ignore our other policies and guidelines, including the sourcing requirements for making controversial assertions about living people. It also does not give you a free pass if the community decides to ban you, either from the subject area, or from the project (as has been proposed below).

To answer the question you posed: I think it's important to them because you appear to be using Wikipedia to further an external agenda, rather than to help write an encyclopaedia. Or, to put it another way: they believe that you are being motivated here by your own sense of injustice and a wish for 'the truth' to be known, rather than a dispassionate interest in ensuring that Wikipedia has accurate and well-written articles about a wide range of subject. There is no reason why you would know this, since your experience here has all been about a single article, but the people you are in disagreement with are widely-respected and experienced editors, who understand our editing guidelines very well, and who have a diverse range of editing interests stretching back years. The idea that they have some nefarious purpose in attempting to prevent you from adding this stuff is, frankly, preposterous, and you should withdraw it. Girth Summit _(blether) 14:07, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Girth Summit Re. the hounding, it’s more a case of members from a small group of editors attempting to get me banned, at every turn possible, for having the audacity (!) to do something I have now been given permission to do by the Arbitration Committee: i.e continue the discussion on the talk page. If it’s not hounding, it’s WikiLawyering, or just being done as a way to try and silence me in my quest to find out why the sources aren’t acceptable to them and this site.

Wikipedia’s WP:BLP policy states that ‘any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source’. Nobody has explained, satisfactorily in my opinion, why the 3 page Bglobal article, dedicated to this matter, cannot be considered a reliable source (it most certainly was published, which can and has been proved). It was being discussed on the reliable sources noticeboard, but rather than answer all my questions on the matter, or debate it to its conclusion, I was banned from the site (at the bequest of one of the same small clique of editors who have constantly been against me even discussing the matter). Following the policies and guidelines, I appealed, won that appeal, and yet the same thing is happening again.

It’s not an assertion to say that multiple academic and experts agree with me that this television show was based, substantially, on an unauthorized adaptation of my work. It is a fact. On top of the published magazine article which references this, (independent and reliable), there’s a University Law Faculty’s online newsletter, as well as a number of independently published letters and posts from academics and experts, that confirm this.

Given what I have mentioned above, and looking at the actions of editors who are grouping together to try and ban me, as opposed to providing clear explanations as to why reliable independent sources aren’t deemed reliable and independent by them, I feel I have every right to question their motives. To suggest that the people (both individuals and corporations) who so many others believe took and used my work don’t have a vested interest in keeping a reference to the fact off Wikipedia would be far more preposterous, in my opinion. But you know what they say about opinions! I’ll not mention mine on the matter again, as obviously it will be used against me and I wouldn't want to hurt anybody's feelings.

Sticking to the facts, rather than accept the one about me being allowed to discuss this matter on the talk page of the article - and edit other pages (which I am now doing) - it is clear that the easier option is to try and ban me. That seems totally against Wikipedia policy and guidelines; against what this very site is about. SethRuebens (talk) 23:41, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The irony is if you do take this to court it will get the very kind of coverage that would enable us to include it (as you have been told, more than once). As to why you should stop discussing this, first off (as has also be said to you) wp:blp applies to talk pages as well. Secondly, you have added nothing new to this discussion since coming back, it is the same arguments over and over again. There comes a point when you are no longer in fact discussing the topic, but badgering Wikipedia to get your way (I have already, I believe, pointe you to wp:tenditious). Nor are we trying to stop you discussing it, you have discussed it. What we are is fed up with telling you it can't be added (and read wp:not and wp:talk talk pagers are not wp:forums to discuss the topic, they are there only and solely to discuss improving the article), and you are just making the same arguments over and over again. You have been allowed your say, its now time to move on.Slatersteven (talk) 17:20, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

There's no irony in the fact that's getting this to court is something I am doing my utmost to make happen. It is a costly and time consuming process that is ongoing. It doesn't take away the fact that hundreds of thousands of people know about the dispute, and that is supported by numerous academics, experts and thousands of people (nb all majority and significant minority views should be included in articles). What makes no sense to me is why you would say you are not trying to stop me discussing it and that the matter has been discussed to its conclusion, when key questions remain unanswered. Instead of answering them, I have been threatened with and am indeed facing being banned by the people who I am asking the questions of (far more ironic, don't you think?). SethRuebens (talk) 23:55, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

No the irony is if (and when) this goes to court you would get your way, so wait until it does, and you will get your passage in the article. You have discusses it, and all you are now doing is just saying the same stuff over and over again, that is not discussing it is wp:badgering, in fact, a year discussing it. And all of your questions have been answered, every one of them, you have been told wp:undue means multiple RS must say it. you have been told that SPS is not RS for this kind of claim wp:blp. You have been told that anything published on your website is not an RS. you have been told it does not matter how many people know about it, what matters is how many RS have reported it.Slatersteven (talk) 09:10, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

With respect I have asked questions on the reliable sources noticeboard about Bglobal that were never answered, before I got banned the first time round. And as for 'anything published on my website is not a RS', I would ask why: I have republished references and links to reliable and independent sources who support me or have referenced the news. I don't want to waste your's or other editor's time, though (as much as I don't want to waste my own). I'll maintain my absolute belief that the article is, in its current state, inaccurate and and does not represent all majority and significant minority views that have been published on the matter. My fight for justice outside Wikipedia will go on. SethRuebens (talk) 09:45, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Why would something that is published by you not an RS about you? Really? We have no way of knowing if you have edited those "testimonials" or if indeed they are even real, can you really not understand that? As to your last statement, is that is not a clear statement you are wpnothere nothing will be. We are not here to wep:rigthgreatwrongs.Slatersteven (talk) 09:50, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

SethRuebens This noticeboard is for issues surrounding conduct, rather than content matters. You have asked a number of times why nobody has addressed the BGlobal article, so I've left a comment on the article's talkpage with my tuppence worth on that matter. I know it's not what you want to hear, but I hope that it will at least partially explain why people appear to be so averse to accepting your proposed changes: in short, what you are trying to do is not how we write articles. Instead of accepting the judgement of multiple experienced editors who have reviewed your sources and found that they do not meet the requirements for content of this nature, you are accusing them of being a clique who are acting in bad faith to frustrate you: that combativeness, and the fact that you keep bringing up sources which you have been told repeatedly that we cannot use (like a Change.org petition or an open letter published on your website), is why people are losing patience with you and calling for you to be banned. Girth Summit _(blether) 11:17, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

SlaterstevenHow can I possibly have edited a 3 page magazine article that was printed and published last year (not by me!) and distributed nationally/internationally? Or the posts made by Industrial Scripts to their 50,000 users?? Or the University of Westminster’s website??? In terms of the other testimonials, links to which I’ve posted on my own website, the suggestion that I have edited these to benefit myself is absurd (just check the links provided). Any suggestion that I could or would have edited the letter in support, from a world- renowned subject expert (who gave me permission to re-publish it), is also, quite frankly ridiculous.

Don't forget, I am not hiding my identity here, Slatersteven: alongside writing and editing, I am a lecturer and teacher who has volunteered for NSPCC campaigns, nationally, and coached children’s sports voluntarily. Why would I risk my career and a clean criminal record by falsifying documents and sharing them publicly? It makes absolutely no sense. The people involved would have attempted to sue me for libel or get me arrested!?!

For the record, I’ve even offered to share the original magazine article (in PDF format, provided by the publisher) and the email and letter from Mukherjee on WP:SHARED and remain happy to do so. As stated the other links can all be verified. It's seems, for some, that's it's far easier to spread mistruths and try and get me banned rather than look into the matter and accept the fact that it's not just me reporting it, but a number of independent and reliable sources. SethRuebens (talk) 11:21, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Come to think of it, how do we know you really are Ben Krushkoff? You might actually be some enemy of his trying to embarrass him by making a pest of yourself on Wikipeida. EEng 11:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Why would you do what you are doing here, which is not exactly looking good for you right now? And by the way not only have you sock puppeted (which is hiding your ID) you are not in fact using your real name, and have described what happened to you as "outing". So yes it might well be you tried to hide who you were until you were (in your words) "outed". We do not know, nor can we confirm anything, that is why we need RS to report it. THis is my last word here, its clear there is a consensus here for sanctions, and nothing you have said indicates you get or care about why people are saying this. This should really be closed now.Slatersteven (talk) 12:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your input and feedback, Girth Summit. I will respond, if I'm still allowed to (!), later, but I'm glad to see someone has actually taken the time to read the article and provide some constructive thoughts, as opposed to jumping in with a blanket criticism of the sources provided (and note I'm not suggesting Change be used as a reference, but the fact that 2,000 people have signed a letter of support clearly indicates this matter is of societal significance).

EEng#s hilarious, but am sure the Arbitration Committee can confirm it's me based on the email I used to communicate with them. Debating an article that thousands of people clearly think is inaccurate, and that involves my own work and reputation, will never embarrass me, in spite of the hounding and lawyering. Article 27 of the UN Charter of Human Rights:

Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

It's obvious what parties should be embarrassed here and I'm not one of them. Regards, Ben. SethRuebens (talk) 12:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Joe jobs always say that. EEng 17:01, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven Fair enough, but I still see this as you (and others) leading a posse trying to sanction me, as opposed to finishing the debate to a fair and reasoned conclusion. Just as below and the comments on the Industrial Scripts reference: you've asked if there's a COI with them, which I've answered there isn't, and then have gone silent. They are subject experts, a reliable and independent source, who have been proven to have reported on the case to their 50,000 followers. Given that they're one of a number of sources to have done so (University of Westminster, BGlobal, other subject experts and academics), I can see no reason why it's a bad look to point this out and let people know (via the talk page) that the article doesn't accurately represent all views. You also haven't responded to the logic in suggesting that I could have altered people's posts, which I responded to and is blatantly preposterous. Anyway...

If I have to wait for further references to come to light, then so be it. I'll bide my time, edit some other articles in the meantime, and wait (Should I not be banned). However, taking away my right to debate and talk about the article on its talk page is akin to stopping me participating in the cultural life of the community and taking away my right to protect my moral interests resulting from a literary production of which I am the author. It is, in other words, a breech of human rights. Well done. SethRuebens (talk) 13:06, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

You have no human rights to edit any website. Your "right to debate" is protected from interference by public authorities, which Wikipedia is not. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:10, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I consider Wikipedia to be a valued part of cultural life of the community I live in; the one we all do. I am quite sure that committee members and the site founder would agree that it should adhere to the UN Declaration of Human Rights (just as Sky UK say they do, but are ignoring for the sake of profit). I'll have a look to see if it's enshrined in any policy documents, at some point. Thanks SethRuebens (talk) 13:28, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

You would be incorrect. The site's stance can be summed up at the essay WP:FREESPEECH. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:34, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I understand and accept that I don't have the right to edit here if I've broken the rules (but I had been allowed to edit the talk page here, as well other articles, prior to doing so). However, with the article remaining 'as is' Wikipedia is also infringing on my rights as set out in the UN charter, just as Sky UK are: I, like anyone, has the basic right to the protection of the moral interests resulting from any artistic production of which I am the author. And I have been acknowledged as being such by the UK's leading Creative Writing faculty, at the time, and a number of others. If people think I'm embarrassing myself, or am being (unintentionally) annoying to others by trying to defend these moral rights, then sorry, but not sorry. I'll leave it at that. SethRuebens (talk) 23:04, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Arbor-treeish break

• Support ban as timesink editor using Wikipedia to further an external dispute. Only today they claimed here that Just as there are references to sources who are reporting my certainty that my work was taken and used without my permission (BGlobal, Industrial Scripts and others). The Industrial Scripts claim relates to a single social media post which says Is this "arguably the biggest case of intellectual property (IP) fraud in the history of television"? Ben Krushkoff thinks so.... and links to one of SethRuebens' websites without taking any stance on whether the posed question is true or false. FDW777 (talk) 20:05, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

So, a world leading script editing company, a 'reliable source' (subject experts), posts a reference to the case to 50,000 followers 'independently' - I don't even know them and didn't ask them to - yet this is not somehow reliable and independent? (they also referenced'staggering' and 'non-coincidental' elsewhere, btw). You're basically confirming my point, here, yet suggesting I get banned in the same post. OK. SethRuebens (talk) 00:04, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The only claim that these are "independent" comes from YOU, which, automatically makes them NOT independent. --Calton | Talk 00:52, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

It's not a claim, it's a fact: I have no sway over two academic faculties, the world's leading script editing company and a respected business magazine's editorial staff. Believe what you like, but please don't write mistruths. SethRuebens (talk) 08:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Do you have any kind of COI with the world's leading script editing company?Slatersteven (talk) 09:01, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely not. I have never worked for them, have no personal relationships with anyone who works there (or any of its directors) and didn't ask for the link to be shared. SethRuebens (talk) 09:45, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support action. If this person believes as they do, then they need to pursue that in the proper forum, which is not Wikipedia. They don't really seem to be here for any other purpose. If they are interested in editing in other areas, a complete topic ban from this matter might suffice, but otherwise a NOTHERE block may be needed. 331dot (talk) 20:49, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

The clause which claims that the Butterworths created Britannia is disputed by thousands of people (academics, experts, Joe Public and myself). It is highly pertinent to the article and already was agreed it could be discussed by the Arbitration Committee. Without a reference to the fact, how does the article accurately represent all majority and significant minority views? SethRuebens (talk) 00:11, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Weird how this "widespread abuse" supposedly opposed by thousands of people, including academic experts, has somehow escaped the attention even of the Daily Mail, nor have these academic experts spoken out on their own -- and no, scanning pieces of paper and putting the images up on your website is NOT them speaking out, it's you, the guy trying to sell the world on your claims, trying sell the notion those unverified and unvetted pieces of paper as evidence.

You've claimed some of this "proof" i being "republished" on your website, yet you have completely avoided the question of WHERE they published in the first place, And I do mean published, not typed out and printed out: published. In a journal, newspaper, etc, NOT your dodgy website, places (plural) independent of you. --Calton | Talk 00:52, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion is about an article written by a well-respected IP and business journalist, printed and published in Bulgaria (which is in the EU), and distributed nationally and internationlly: BGlobal; #1; 21.08. - 20.09.29; pp 123-125; BGlobal Media Ltd; EAN 9770273869611. Likewise, the user above has linked to a reliable source posting news of this to their 50,000+ followers, and there's the link to the University of Westminster's Law Faculty newsletter (published online).

When have I written this involves "widespread abuse"? This is about a small group of people and the unauthorised use of my work. Over two thousand people have signed the petition supporting me, which is also easy enough for you to verify (so not 'supposedly' at all).

Your above post is a total misrepresentation of the facts. Why would you do that? SethRuebens (talk) 08:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

PS. The fact that Sky spend millions in advertising in the UK press, and that this involves another media house (News UK), is it any wonder that the UK media are reluctant to print a piece exposing those responsible, that pits a foreign sounding individual against a much revered British playwright? The Daily Mail is no long considered a reliable source by Wiki, anyway, right??? It doesn't change the fact that it's the accepted academic opinion that my work has been heavily plagiarised, and news of this has been featured in reliable and independent sources. SethRuebens (talk) 08:19, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from Brittania and its talk page, and from discussion of that TV show anywhere, broadly construed. If multiple reliable sources report on what this editor is obsessed with, then other editors can add it to the article. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:34, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support Tban (as an involved editor) I have no idea what Arbcom thought when they unblocked a pure SPA whose only reason to be here is to push a (BLP busting) agenda, and it would be nice if we could see the reasoning. Thus I am unsure just a TBAN is any good, as they are not here to do anything but fight for this claim to be added (so will in effect be a full ban anyway, so why not give them one?). They have refused to listen, when policy has been explained to them, and have exhibited a total battleground mentality. In fact, they have breached (as far as I can see) a number of policies. All to try and get us to include a claim, that no significant RS has deemed note-worthy.Slatersteven (talk) 09:14, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Changed to Tban as they have expressed a desire to edit elsewhere, that might be for the best.Slatersteven (talk) 17:26, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support siteban. We've already had one Bogdanov Affair; we do not need another. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^{Jéské Couriano} 09:35, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The fact that my name ends in +off/ov is pretty much where any link to The Bogdanov Affair starts and end. They were accussed of taking someone else's work and faking PHD's. I am the one who academics, experts and thousands of people believe has had his work taken. But sure, I am off part Eastern European heritage, so guess that makes me somehow a bad person or a fraud. SethRuebens (talk) 00:21, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support (at minimum) topic ban (involved) SethReubens's is WP:NOTHERE. Nothing has changed, there is simply no credible sourcing here, and he is simply using Wikipedia to try to enhance the credibility of his widely ignored claims. This has been an enormous time sink spanning almost exactly a year now. Enough is enough. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:58, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
  • On further reflection Support site ban outright. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:12, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The article in Bglobal (reliable and independent) wasn't published until August 2020, and was not part of the original edits. As for them being widely ignored, just because the MSM in the UK/US hasn't picked up on them yet, doesn't mean they've been ignored. Academically, they haven't (I've lectured on the case, as confirmed by the University of Westminster, and been supported publicly by a number of academics). They haven't by society either (hence 2,000+ people have signed the petition in my favour). I'm not trying to change the article myself; but taking away my right to discuss it on the talk page is in breech of what the Arbitration Committee have allowed me to do and also, I'd argue, goes against my basic human rights. If you don't want to join in, then don't (nobody is forcing you to). SethRuebens (talk) 13:18, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support ban as a completely uninvolved editor who's just wasted about an hour trawling through the history of this... 'dispute' - community time and energy is better spent elsewhere. -- a ^{they/them | argue | contribs} 17:26, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• This is the umpteenth time the user has claimed some kind of (specific) permission to discuss this matter. I think we need to know what they were told by Arbcom, exactly what the terms of their unblock were. As I find it hard to believe Arbcom would (in essence) say "you can ignore wp:forum and just discuss this in any way you like", if they did we need to be made aware of it.Slatersteven (talk) 17:47, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  This is the Arbcom announcement. The "archived discussion" consists solely of a link back to the announcement, so it all seems to have taken place in email, I presume. Schazjmd (talk) 17:53, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  Yes I checked that, It is why we need Arbcom to say what was agreed, as I find it hard to believe they would have given blanket permission to treat a talk page like a forum.Slatersteven (talk) 17:57, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

For the record, this is an exact copy of the body of the email (I've withheld the committee member's name who sent it, as I don't know whether that would be permitted):

The Arbitration Committee has been discussing your appeal and we have come to a consensus to grant your appeal subject to conditions, specifically:

1. You are restricted to one account

2. You are restricted from editing Britannia (TV series but you will permitted to edited the associated talk page

3. You must comply with the COI disclosure guideline - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#How_to_disclose_a_COI

Please let us know if these conditions are acceptable, and if so, which account you will be using. Also note that an on-wiki record will be made of these restrictions.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee (...) SethRuebens (talk) 13:35, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Siteban It's incredible the time we spend on stuff like this. It's perfectly obvious this guy's here to push his own personal and (likely) financial interests. There's zero possibility that he can contribute usefully. Full site ban and be done with it. EEng 18:11, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support ban per EEng and Allie. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:45, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  When a user starts citing the "UN Declaration of Human Rights" to support their "right to protest" in the form of editing Wikipedia articles to promote their personal/financial interests, my support for a site ban only grows stronger. WP:NOTSOAPBOX, WP:NOTADVOCACY etc. Seems like a nice person, but their purpose is not compatible with the purpose of Wikipedia, and thus are a WP:TIMESINK as far as Wikipedia is concerned. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support ban or just a TBAN if there's interest in doing something other than self-promotion. This editor is wasting our time. I'm also concerned they're working with BillsonBobletian. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 00:14, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support Tban just in case he's actually able to constructively edit in other topics, but given he constantly brings up the fact that he got "2000+ signatures" on a Change.org petition as if that proved notability, I'm afraid there might also be some WP:CIR concerns here. —El Millo (talk) 00:35, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support site ban. He's an SPA who's shown himself utterly incapable of understanding or willing to acknowledge anything which contradicts his self-serving spin on policy, guidelines, acceptable behavior, or common sense, really. Given that track record, I CANNOT imagine how he could contribute productively in general, given hs inability to learn anything which isn't self-serving. --Calton | Talk 00:52, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

From someone who has written a load of untruths about me, the sources being referenced and the nature of the discussion. Fair enough. SethRuebens (talk) 08:21, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support site ban I was granted permission to re-join the site, this is far different from being "granted permission" to resume a POV battlefield approach to push one's own agenda on the site, and I'm not seeing any change in that regard. — Ched (talk) 09:06, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support site ban - Per Alfie, EEng and Calton. They have shown zero interest in anything other than pushing their own agenda, the very definition of not being here to build an encyclopaedia. We have wasted quite enough time on these shenanigans already. --Jack Frost (talk) 09:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• I note that they have still only made one edit outside this one cause (not even subject, just their cause). I still think only a Tban, so they can show they are here to create an encyclopedia and not just use us to strengthen their claim (and I suspect if we did include this that is what they would do use it as a bolster to their claim) in a court of law.Slatersteven (talk) 09:10, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  I can't parse that bit in parens. EEng 16:51, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  That they are not only interested in just one topic area or even topic (as are most SPA's), but a very specific issue within that topic. That they are here for one reason alone, and that is to promote their grievance against the writers of the show, not even to improve the article itself.Slatersteven (talk) 16:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support ban, utterly uninvolved admin already worn out by this user's posts all over the place about his pet project. I'd have already implemented it myself if it weren't for the arbcom unblock. It is clear that this editor is not here to contribute productively to this encyclopedia. Maybe there will eventually be coverage of his lawsuit, but there is no consensus right now that there's reliable sourced coverage of his accusation and therefore it does not belong. If he wishes to edit logged out, there's no reason this shouldn't be a violation of his unblock and therefore be reblocked.Star Mississippi 16:35, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Extended comment given arbs' comments below, it seems that any admin can ban without fear of ArbComm should they see consensus to do so. As I've since !voted, I won't, but my advise to you, SethRuebens is quit digging. Asserting your moral right is another flirtation with no legal threats and further proof that you do not understand the sourcing and cannot navigate your COI and edit responsibly. Star Mississippi 01:53, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
• OP comment The continued arguments by SethRuebens display either an inability or an unwillingness to understand and accept Wikipedia's sourcing requirements. An editor who cannot recognize the difference between reliable and unreliable sources cannot contribute productively, which is why I believe the site ban is preferable to the topic ban. Schazjmd (talk) 16:58, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Ban, as is obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together. What on Earth were Arbcom thinking of by unblocking such an obviously disruptive editor? I think we should be told some time before the next election to that body. Is there a way to ping Arbcom generically, or do I have to contact a member individually, which I prefer not to do because I dislike doing anything that smacks of personal privilege? Phil Bridger (talk) 17:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  While I can't answer what ArbCom were thinking with this unblock (I was inactive at the time, and I'm unwilling to speak for anyone else), it may be worth clarifying that nothing in ArbCom's unblock gives this editor permission to act disruptively, nor should it be construed as preventing the community from dealing with them accordingly. In particular, taking up contributor time by fighting one's legal battles on the pages of Wikipedia is not behaviour that should be tolerated. – bradv^🍁 18:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  @Phil Bridger: to your other point about pinging: as far as I am aware there is no way to ping the committee. It would certainly be handy but I just can't think of how it would even work. Closest thing we have is emailing the committee, but as you can see you've already got at least some of our attention here. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:38, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  Beeblebrox, couldn't you use a group ping template? The FA coordinators have one, {{@FAC}}. Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:04, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

  We could; the arb clerks also do at {{@ArbComClerks}}. It's currently possible to ping all the arbs by including everyone individually on {{re}}, but people don't often do that because it's quite disruptive. If we had an official template, I'd worry about over-use (oh, this is an official option, let's use this for any minor thing). Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 00:29, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

  @ArbCom: I created a notification template. I'm a little concerned that this pings a lot of people, but if it ends up getting used frivolously or abusively we can always disable it. – bradv^🍁 00:35, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• Hi everyone. If I were here not as an arb, I would be voting to siteban – indeed, I would've imposed a full site block myself. As an arb, I'll step forward and apologize for this one. I also won't speak for any other arbs, but I voted to unblock because SethRuebens had credibly resolved the sockpuppetry part of block (the sole siteblock reason, in which two accounts were used and convincingly disclosed to ArbCom in the appeal) and committed to avoid further sockpuppetry. In retrospect, I should have voted to deny the appeal, but I think it was a closer case than we can see in retrospect. When ArbCom unblocks a user, especially with restrictions, we aren't trying to confer "immunity" of some kind on the user: my hope is exactly the opposite, that it be treated as a last chance, super ROPE unblock. The instant SethRuebens became disruptive upon return, I would've wanted him blocked without question. That clearly isn't the message that we sent here, especially if admins are saying they would've blocked had we not earlier unblocked, and I'm sorry about that. I take full responsibility for all the trouble this has caused. If anyone has any feedback on how we can better convey it's-a-last-chance-not-immunity message beyond imposing restrictions, please let me know. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:16, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
  • @L235: Thanks for explaining this. IMO WP:AC/P is less than clear about what the community and/or admins can/can't do with respect to arbcom blocks/unblocks, and I think it would benefit from some revision. Levivich 20:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

KevinL Please note, I have not set out to be 'disruptive on my return' at all and am sorry that you think this is the case.

Please note I was banned (from what I can recall at the bequest of a user, who I believe had a credible link to one of the opposing parties in this debate), prior to having simple questions answered on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. Given that I was specifically allowed to rejoin as an editor and make edits to the talk page of Britannia, I had simply presumed that the debate could continue until it's conclusion. It was never made clear to me by the Arbitration Committee that it couldn't.

Of course, I am not happy that a number of editors have tried to misrepresent the sources I have provided (above and on other pages) and have gone straight for the jugular (i.e. people have been saying it's only me or a website I've made that references this controversy, which is simply not the case, and immediately set out to have me banned again). However, I have noted that some of the editors have come up with one or two valid points that I'm prepared to accept on the matter and will refrain from making further edits on the talk page until the matter is resolved (one way or the other), at least after responding to the last comment made there.

I do, however, stand by my statement above regarding my human rights. Sure, I might not have the right to edit on this site, and it can be taken away from me (fair enough). But the article will be infringing on my moral rights as a creator as set out in Article 27: I have the basic right to the protection of the moral interests resulting from any artistic production of which I am the author. I am supported in my certainty that Britannia was based on my work by thousands of people, including from within academia and the industry. A failure of Wikipedia to recognise these rights would be morally wrong in the eyes of those people, and a growing number of others. Thank you for your time, Ben SethRuebens (talk) 23:27, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Again, just because you're not satisfied with the consensus outcome doesn't mean the discussion hasn't cconcluded. It has, and your continued insistence that you're owed some additional explanation ad infinitum is highly disruptive. 2600:6C60:6A00:1B2:7C23:D112:B70C:1FCC (talk) 00:09, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• I think it bears repeating, as this seems to be a very common misconception even among experienced admins: Arbcom unblocks are not an inoculant against further consequences. What we reviewed here was the aspect we had to review, the checkuser block. Anything that does not require the committee can be done by the community at will. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:14, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  I would echo what Beeblebrox said. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:55, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you to the arbs who have commented here. My question about this case has been answered perfectly satisfactorily. Maybe some of the more general issues need to be addressed. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:00, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

User vandalizing article on Bauhaus band

Woovee repeatedly removes information from the article on Bauhaus (band) on the grounds that it's insulting to bands he likes and because the article is written by biased Bauhaus fans, even though everything is cited and contains multiple points of view on a notable aspect of the band (how much influence they had on what was later considered goth when it's cited that the band is often considered the first goth band). He claims this is turning the article into an "essay on goth" when it's one short paragraph. This has been discussed to death on the talk page, and third parties have been brought in, and the consensus was reached that information was appropriate. Woovee had even conceded and seems to have laid low for a while hoping the consensus would have been forgotten and now has sprung back up again to remove cited information on the same grounds as before. First as though the conversation has never occurred, then denying consensus had been reached. There are issues with the article that I agree with Woovee on and would be happy to see him address them (too many long lists name-dropping every band who ever mentioned Bauhaus, too many quotes for the sake of including quotes) but this one paragraph is relevant and he seems to want it removed because he subjectively sees it as insulting bands he likes by "blaming" them for goth.Lynchenberg (talk) 19:48, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Clerical note: I have full-protected the article for one day. You are both well in excess of 3RR, but I do not want to stifle any discussion here. --Chris (talk) 23:10, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Apologies for the multiple reverts. Anyway, I'm going to leave this discussion be and let you guys sort it out. I've made my case multiple times already and I tend to be long-winded. So, I think it's better if neutral outsiders (preferably ones with no interest in this music) handle this. I'm also confident that upon reviewing the edit history, sources, and talk page, the situation will speak for itself. It's my opinion that if I engage in further discussion, Woovee will just continue falling back on accusations of me being some kind of Bauhaus super-fan with a beef against The Cure. That's not the case and in my opinion neutral parties will see that. Lynchenberg (talk) 00:17, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Both Lynchenberg and Woovee have been edited warring aggressively. Both are hereby warned that edit warring is a blockable offense, so stop it. Neither are using the talk page which hasn't been edited for three weeks. Lynchenberg, you are accusing Woovee of vandalism but Wikipedia has a narrow definition of vandalism and Woovee's edits do not constitute vandalism. Not even close. So, Lynchenberg, you are warned to stop making false accusations of vandalism. This is a content dispute, pure and simple, and ANI does not resolve content disputes and administrators have no special powers to adjudicate them. We do have the power to block edit warriors and genre warriors, though. Use the talk page, avoid copy pasting lengthy edit summaries, and hammer out consensus. There are various forms of dispute resolution available, but edit warring is an unacceptable tactic. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:05, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The talk page hasn't been used for three weeks but we had this same discussion over six months ago instead of edit warring and you can see the results on the talk page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bauhaus_(band)#Musical_style_and_influences It's pretty clear how it went and the only response Woovee had to offer was to bully me and others about supposedly being obsessive Bauhaus fanboys on a holy war to denigrate The Cure by turning Wikipedia into a badly written blog post. The edit warring did not start until he conceded (reluctantly and rudely) six months ago, then popped back up today to make the same edits as though nothing happened. In this situation, what else can I do but revert his edits and report him? If I make another thread on the talk page, it will just be ignored outright, or if he's pressured into responding by other people addressing it there (which is what happened six months ago) the actual content of what I'm saying will be ignored and dismissed with the same "You just hate The Cure, you obsessive Bauhaus fanboy" rhetoric, or he'll concede for half-a-year then make these same edits again hoping we'll forget about this. If you're telling me to no longer revert his edits, fine, I'll stop. I'll also just unwatch the Bauhaus page and move on as I've already spent way too much time arguing my case over-and-over and a consensus was reached with other users. If administration can't uphold that consensus then I can't do anything more. And despite being "Cure detracting Bauhaus fanboy hijacker" I don't care enough about the band to try. Haven't listened to them in years at this point, I just wanted to improve their article. I do still listen to The Cure though. Lynchenberg (talk) 05:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Problematic COI editing at Ashland University

Can an administrator please take a look at the recent editing history and Talk page discussion of Ashland University? There is a legitimate discussion in Talk about whether the university should be labeled as a "Christian" university in the lede sentence. The problem is that the editor who first edited the article to remove that adjective is a paid by the university and continued to edit the article while the discussion has been ongoing and a loose consensus (only a few editors have participated) has formed in favor of keeping this adjective in the lede sentence. This same editor has also looked up my work e-mail address - it's not hard to find but it's not the e-mail I address I have connected to Wikipedia's e-mail function - and sent me a few pointed messages including one that was sent after I explicitly asked him to only contact me in my User Talk page. And now a relatively new single-purpose editor has begun editing the article to remove this adjective with no discussion in Talk or even an edit summary (in addition to several recent edits made by unregistered editors, including several using IP addresses owned by the university, and a few edits made by new editors who only edited this article once or twice).

Semi-protection of the article may be appropriate. And it would also be helpful if an administrator could have a word with these editors. It's totally fine for people who work for the university to ask questions and make suggestions in the article's Talk page. It's even fine, in my opinion, for them to make uncontroversial edits and to disagree with other editors in the article's Talk page or other Talk pages. It is not acceptable for them to edit war with other editors, against consensus, to ensure that the article conforms with their employer's preferred public image. ElKevbo (talk) 01:12, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I've applied ECP to the article for 2 weeks due to the extensive IP-hopping and general lack of communication. Hopefully that is enough time to establish a consensus on the talk page. – bradv^🍁 02:07, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I have warned any paid editors to comply with policy on the article talk page, and explained the importance of independent sources. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:03, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Canvassing on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moglix (3rd nomination)

Moglix has been deleted multiple times since 2016. It has recently been nominated (once again) for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moglix (3rd nomination).

To give a background on how this specific iteration got to the deletion nomination, Hayema K made the page for Moglix in the article space. Celestina007 moved the article to the draft space, telling [324] the article's re-creator that the article did not match the verifiability standards. Hayema K proceded to add sources, remove the AfC tag, and move the draft into the mainspace without going through the AfC process. After seeing the article in the mainspace DJRSD tagged the article with a potential undisclosed paid editing notice and nominated the article for deletion.

Several editors, including me, participated in that nomination discussion. Today, Hayema K made a !vote for keep, but also pinged three specific editors who had participated in prior discussions on the topic: Cunard, David in DC, and CNMall41. Hayema K stated that the aforementioned editors may want to give their opinions here as well.

It's pretty clear why only three editors were picked from prior discussions—the pinged editors had !voted to keep the page in previous deletion discussions, and were the only three to !vote in favor of keep in the most recent deletion discussion:

• Cunard placed a keep !vote in both the first and second deletion discussion
• David in DC placed a keep !vote in both the first and second deletion discussion.
• CNMall41 placed a keep !vote in both the first and second deletion discussion.

In fact, these three were the only ones who !voted for keep in the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moglix (2nd nomination).

There were four editors that commented in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moglix (2nd nomination) that !voted for delete/speedy delete. Hayema K has not pinged any such editors.

From the above, the actions above Hayema K show a clear intent to stack the discussion in their favor, by selecting only editors whose stance on the issue is known and lean keep. In my view, this shows that Hayema K is currently here to WP:WIN, rather than to build an encyclopedia.

In light of the above, I propose that Hayema K be:

1. Topic banned from deletion, broadly construed, for a period of 1 year and
2. required to submit articles they create through Articles for Creation for review, until the user becomes extended-confirmed.

— Mikehawk10 (talk) 03:59, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Pinging other editors from previous discussions is not canvassing. However, being that Hayema K pinged only those they sought favor with, I would agree with Mikehawk10 and support the recommendation on this. There is also a strong smell of WP:COI and possibly WP:PAID with Hayema K. --CNMall41 (talk) 04:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• Calm down 1. Topic-banning a brand new user from everything to do with page deletion over a single questionable edit would be an overreaction. Don't WP:BITE and so on. 2. All COI editors are required to go through AfC by default so we just need to make this new user aware of that existing requirement (as well as the requirement to disclose their COI). There's no need for any tailor-made sanctions at this time IMO; instead, an attempt to educate the user should be made and only if that fails should we be looking into other options. 78.28.44.31 (talk) 10:57, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The user is not new unless they are extremely fast on the uptake of rules and policies and general wikilingo. While it is a vague possibility, it's far more likely they either went from an IP account to a named account, made a new account, or do a lot of lurking (enough so that they should definitely know better than to canvass). Jcmcc (Talk) 13:23, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The editor who nominated the article for deletion also did some inappropriate canvassing (by pinging specifically the two editors who "recently declined the article"[325]) and even though two wrongs don't make a right, it's hard to ignore the fact that Hayema's canvassing merely restored the balance, if you will. They do seem to be a quick study, as you noted; it's therefore not unreasonable to believe that they arrived at the idea of pinging other editors who are likely to be sympathetic to their cause by looking at what the afd's nominator did; sanctioning them for it would be ridiculous. Instead, they need to be made aware of the fact that they followed a bad example. 78.28.44.31 (talk) 13:42, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Pinging only editors who voted the way you want the current discussion to go is surely an effort to stack the vote. And, at least circumstantially, this looks like an editor who knows our rules, rather than an a actual new editor who deserves bite-insurance.

I think some consequence is required, to teach this editor and to protect the project.

I take no position on whether the proposed consequence is too harsh, nor on the article in question. I hardly edit any more and defer to folks who do on those questions David in DC (talk) 14:41, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• Having closely examined this saga, what I can say is I do believe it does our reputation a disservice, what message are we trying to pass across by voting to retain a possible COI article on mainspace? If an editor has a COI with their creation then they ought to know to pass it through the AFC process and not try to circumvent it and if/when circumvented it is behoove of senior editors to correct such. I really do not think we should be actively encouraging such behavior. It’s a slippery slope. Celestina007 (talk) 23:37, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• No this is not a "new" user: their contributions show that immediately after becoming autoconfirmed, they plonked down a well formatted article about their favorite company Moglix [326]. The editor then comes to the AfD discussion and expresses, in perfect wiki fluency, I don't believe it qualifies for WP:G4. The 2nd discussion took place around 4 years ago and the topic has since received an abundance of significant coverage in secondary, independent, reliable sources and passes WP:GNG with ease. That's the typical behavior of UPE editors. AGF and BITE are not a suicide pact. JBchrch talk 12:05, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Harassment by User:Cladeal832

On June 27, Cladeal832 made a bold edit at Ian Fleming and over the next 24 hours was reverted a total of 5 times by 3 editors (me, Nikkimaria ([327]), and Black Kite ([328]). Cladeal832 was asked multiple times to discuss and WP:BRD and WP:3RR were mentioned.

On July 2, Cladeal832 does the same thing and I revert them thrice ([329], [330], [331]). I open a discussion on the talk page. They comment and then self-revert.

Instead, they proceed to comment on my user page. I found this passive aggressive and reverted them. On the third revert, I ask them to stop and threaten them with ANI. After that warning, they comment again. I revert. They comment again. I revert. They have made a total of 13 edits to my talk page. Cladeal832 has been editing since 2006. Can someone please address this disruptive behavior. ~ HAL333 04:04, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I read how Ian Fleming one-time fiancée later married the man who invented Velcro and added it the article. It was deleted. This user is being inaccurate in that my edits were not just reverting to what I had previously edited since agreed not to add information that this might be out of the scope of the article. The user kept removing citations stating he/she was unsure if Der Spiegel [among the largest news outlet in Europe] and IanFleming.com [used as citation within this article yet this user only deleted mine] were or weren't reliable sources. Whatever way this user found my messages [and I apologize since I went out of way to neutral in my language in accordance with guidelines[332]], all I tried was to have a civil discussion to improved the article, that the user requested again[333] and was just ignored[334] or threatened[335] and again[336]. I sincerely believed this user was unaware these were reliable sources and would stop once it was pointed out to them, and after they continued to revert and remove additional citations [again despite other parts of the article using the same sourcing[337]], I just tried to engage in civil discussion and was ignored and threatened. The solution would simply be for this user to answer the question I posed to them here[338]. Also there's not limit on how many edits on a Talk Page and most of it was just this user deleting it so I had to just asking them about how to improve the article. I can longwinded and also I'm a poor speller and make syntax errors and tried to correct them so unsure how many times I edited his/her talk page really matters.Cladeal832 (talk) 04:44, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Der Spiegel is an RS - I'm not so sure about the other. But if you wanted to discuss this, you should have done so at Talk:Ian Fleming. We're not here to discuss content but your conduct. ~ HAL333 05:15, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Your behavior has been mean and awful to me and totally needless. Because I try to compensate for my LD by correcting my spelling and grammar so I edited my message and that's means it's just I get insulted by being referred to as spam.[339] The other source cited is Ian Fleming Publications since as I pointed out is already cited on several article including the one you removed it from. All you had to say was I prefer to discuss this on Ian Fleming page as I asked if you would like, but you just came here to label it harassments or spam rather than just simply engage which you are still unwilling to do since what difference does it make on your Talk Page or not. Cladeal832 (talk) 05:49, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The way to avoid being accused of edit warring is to not do edits within 24-hours so of course I waited since I just believed the edit would stand when the rational for their removal, unsure if they were reliable sources, was shown to be wrong. I didn't expect to just be ignored by this user. I explained why I commented on this user talk page and would have been fine having the discussion on Ian Fleming Talk Page if requested, but that message was deleted[340] so unsure what that is accused of upsetting this user. Cladeal832 (talk) 04:50, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:3RR, it doesn't matter whether you are reverting the "same or different material". You've been editing for 15 years and have made over 11,000 edits and aren't familiar with basic Wikipedia policies? I find that hard to believe. And you don't need to know policy to realize that repeatedly commenting on a user page despite being reverted and asked to stop is harassment. ~ HAL333 05:10, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

It should also be made clear that in the user's first and second edits ([341], [342]) the information was unsourced, and it wasn't until the third edit ([343]) that they added a source. From this edit on, they stopped adding the extra info but kept on adding the source to the already-sourced info that was already there. —El Millo (talk) 05:14, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Cladeal832 if someone keeps reverting your comments on their talk page it is not appropriate to keep posting there. Continuing to do this can result in a block for edit warring or harassment. A user removing a notice is taken as evidence that they have seen it. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 05:23, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

In 11,000 edits, nobody has ever reverted a message even once. It was especially weird to me since this user asked for a discussion repeatedly. I did look it up afterwards and didn't put back the same message, but only tried to engaged since the user was wrong about the stated rational for removing the edits. I was fine going over the Talk Page for the Ian Fleming article if they so wished. I don't get how it's harassment when the user repeatedly requested we discuss it and when I did, violated the civility policy by calling my response to his/her request as just calling me Spam [344] I don't believe you are being fair when this user asked for discussion, nothing I said was a personal attack or insult in my message [what does it matter it I edit my message for spelling and grammar mistakes since LD people are allowed on Wikipedia unless the rules have changed] and I read the policy and just requested he/she stop reverted my edits of reliable sources which are more direct than the ones currently cited. Why does this user get to ignore he/she didn't know what Der Spiegel is and didn't bother to look it up before stating they were reliable. Cladeal832 (talk) 05:38, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I am amazed in 11k edits this is the first time you have encountered this. Just today I had a talk page message of mine removed by a user with a snotty edit summary.

Wikipedia:User_pages#Removal_of_comments,_notices,_and_warnings says that this is allowed, it also states that returning messages that have been removed are not exempt from 3RR. You are of course welcome to continue whatever discourse on article talk pages but if a user does not want you on their user talk page then there is not much you can do about it.

At this point it is not harassment but if it continues it will rise to that level. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 05:46, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Amazed or not, nobody is that rude as what happened today just to avoid admitting they didn't know what was and wasn't an accurate source [still won't]. This isn't a particular shy user and had plenty to tell me in the edit summaries so unsure why he/she wouldn't respond which is why kept trying to get this over and done with, but that's on them and me I guess. I went to discuss on the article's talk page [unsure why he/she couldn't have just made that simple request instead of running over here]. Cladeal832 (talk) 06:03, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Follow-up question, if this user continues to refuse to discuss, can I add the citations back.Cladeal832 (talk) 06:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Generally, refusal to engage in discussion in the course of a content dispute, means that said editor has effectively forfeited their position (an extension of WP:SILENCE, in a sense). But, unless an explicit refusal, a reasonable length of time should be extended (in most instances, days rather than hours). El_C 13:54, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I'll also add that if discussion on a respective article talk page reaches an impasse, there are other steps in the dispute resolution process which can be pursued (including formal requests). El_C 14:16, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I am not refusing to discuss. I opened an entire discussion about it on Talk:Ian Fleming. ~ HAL333 15:48, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion has so far avoided any effort to make any compromises with moving goalposts and been trying to turn it into a campaign for votes[345] which is one thing and hopefully we can still try to resolve it, but also separately may I also launch a harassment complaint against User:HAL333 for writing on the Talk Page that he/she thinks I have a lack competency by linking to online dictionaries and writing he/she don't think I know what words mean because I've disagree with his/her assessment on a particular edit [346] which is a violation of civility guidelines[347]. I would hope he/she wouldn't do this to anyone else. Cladeal832 (talk) 22:18, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I keep doing this. My answers above, again, were general in nature only, as I've yet to review this matter closely at the time of my writing this (now). El_C 17:33, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Over 15 years, 11,000 edits: 750 to talk, 192 to user talk, 4 blocks (2 for edit warring). I can see a correlation between increases in your activity levels and either edit warring complaints on your user talk page (e.g. in 2019) or blocks (e.g. 2016). From this I conclude you revert too much and use talk pages not enough (which explains your unfamiliarity with them). I would say next time you are reverted to follow WP:BRD, but I can see people have been telling you that for years. :-/ Levivich 06:21, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Well your conclusion is wrong. Mostly fairly minor edits like hyperlinks or typos corrections so unsure why you need to go to Talk Page for those. Any editors can be mistaken on what is and isn't a reliable source, but most of time they get it within the edit summaries [348] and are not as stubborn as this user. I barely ever revert, but others revert me. I point out the other users also got blocked to ruin your mean-spirited knock on me. Anybody, this is about what happened today rather you just judging me on prior acts and dismissing it. Insults and unhelpful criticism aside, I reverted twice today so calm down with the sanctimony on not knowing the policy and when I went to Talk Page [avoiding any personal attack and solely discussing on how to improve the article in question], it was called harassment. I get I have 11,000, but does every single comment really need to mention it again and again. What does it matter. I think one reason this user was keen on only doing this discussion at the Ian Fleming talk page rather than just discussing his or her mistake on reliable sourcing is to turn it into a consensus issue. Except they didn't cite the reason for removal as being a personal preference, but removal on a non-reliable source which was inaccurate and doesn't fall under the guidelines for a need of consensus. I get his or her motives are immaterial since they may delete and ignore whatever they like on their own Talk Page as you have already pointed out and just have to accept it no matter how bizarre.Cladeal832 (talk) 06:32, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

to turn it into a consensus issue Everything is a consensus issue on Wikipedia. You were trying to skirt that by avoiding discussion on the talk page. ~ HAL333 19:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• When I reverted previously my edit summary was "I am astonished that someone with 11,000 edits does not comprehend WP:BRD and WP:3RR. Now discuss on talk page, please, or WP:AN3 will be the next stop". Since they don't seem to be able to understand this concept, I would suggest that a partial bock from Ian Fleming would be the logical next step. Though I also note multiple previous issues on their talkpage, including copyvio issues, so I do wonder if there is a competence issue here as well. Black Kite (talk) 14:28, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

IP commented on my talk page and outed another editor

• 2603:7000:6b00:4b00:7817:8102:65b1:c182 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• User Talk:Mikehawk10
• User Talk:Horse Eye's Back

I was advised by Spencer at AIV that I should bring this here. And IP editor recently posted on my talk page, and that of Horse Eye's Back containing information that would reasonably be construed to constitute outing. The edits have been suppressed by oversighters, but the IP remains unblocked. I'm wondering if it would be possible to temporarily block the IP/64 in order to ensure that this information doesn't pop back on to the wiki in the coming days.

I'm not really sure how to provide evidence except to point to the now-suppressed diffs, so here's a list of the two contributions that they have made. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:19, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah that was weird... Thanks for removing it from my page and seeking help at AIV, I was unsure what to do with it and would have just let it linger unresponded to on my talk page. My memory of the message is a little vague but was it technically outing? As far as I remember the claim being made was that a twitter account and a wikipedia account with the same unique name were under the control of the same person but unless I missed something (or the version posted on your talk page was more in-depth) there wasn’t anything regarding the identity of the person alleged to be behind both accounts nor was there any other personal information nor was there anything which actually linked the two accounts besides the unique name and similar areas of interest. When first interacting with it I was viewing it from a harassment angle rather than an outing one, I think thats still the safe bet. I think Wikipedia:Linking to external harassment is probably right and we should for the most part ignore Twitter etc harassment. But if it was outing they didn’t exactly do a great job of it, they managed to share zero personal information in forums. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Complain against user SpacemanSpiff

I was routinely editing pages..... Out of the blues this user SpacemanSpiff comes on my talk page and given me a block threat... admins are being requested to kindly control bullying to new users.. thanks in anticipation DavidWood11 (talk) 07:41, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

In case you didn't notice, SpacemanSpiff IS an admin. A brief look at your (David's) talk page shows multiple warnings by multiple editors. Posting here shines a light on that fact. You may want to consider the idea that if multiple editors have issues with your editing, then perhaps you need to change your editing. So no, I personally won't be talking to SpacemanSpiff about anything he's done since he hasn't done anything wrong. (IMO). Personally I suggest you heed the warnings, but YMMV. — Ched (talk) 08:23, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

That warning is more than appropriate, almost every edit of yours is some sort of POV pushing. I had to bring up your conduct here at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1065 § User:DavidWood11 – Severe competency issues to which you said you needed time to respond but never did. It got archived and now you are back again after a month with the same issues. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 08:32, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay since DavidWood11 needed more time to respond last time his competency was brought up here, and has now decided to return to this board, perhaps now is a good time to address those concerns. You have had a few months since then to submit your "side in the defense against the allegations as levelled by Tayi Arajakate". HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 09:57, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

@DavidWood11: last time you asked for more time and waiting for it to be archived. I think this time we should address the situation. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 01:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Complaint

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I'd like to make a complaint against Alex 21 for repeatedly undoing my edits in The Flash (season 7) page. The thing is, I've added 'Interlude I', with a Twitter link as source and a screenshot because the Twitter is private. He simply refuses to accept it, even though 'Graphic Novel 3' has the same kind of source. I hope you can put an end to this. Thank you. 190.89.167.143 (talk) 08:02, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

You must notify any user that you discuss here about the existence of this discussion- but this forum is not for resolving content disputes. 331dot (talk) 08:04, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Ok. So where do I report him for abuse? 190.89.167.143 (talk) 08:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I have placed the required notice on the user's talk page. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 08:14, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

190.89.167.143 requiring a source for an addition to an article is not abuse, it is good editorial discretion. It is part of our standards that things be sourced. I suggest that you stop trying to add things to the article and instead go to the talk page and present reliable sources.

Continuing to post the same thing to the article over and over day after day without presenting a source can result in you being blocked from editing for edit warring. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 08:17, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I did present a source. Eric Wallace's twitter. It's not my fault if the guy can't acess it, but other people can. That means it's a valid source. 190.89.167.143 (talk) 08:19, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I suggest you actually read our reliable source policy rather than just its title. Twitter posts are not a reliable source, nor is it a secondary source. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 08:21, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh yeah? Then how about the Graphic Novel 3 source that he just removed? That thing is unsourced now. Someone warn him that. 190.89.167.143 (talk) 08:24, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The screenshot of the twitter post? Are you even reading what is being said to you? HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 09:50, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I have asked them to read the RS policies, IP I suggest you drop this before there is a boomerrang. Screen shots are not RS, it is arguable if even the Twitter post would be.Slatersteven (talk) 10:00, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Have reviewed it and Alex has done nothing wrong. As previously discussed above, Twitter is not an appropriate source to use. Daniel (talk) 11:37, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

IP added sales links of Amazon as sources to American Pie (film series) diff. I reverted. They reinstated it and left a message on my talk page stating " I just put the same sources as the other four movies" which is brings in the issue of WP:OTHERCONTENT. Additionally, their statement is false, as only one other minor American Pie film articles had Amazon links (that weren't added by this IP). I removed the Amazon links and a link to another sales site from that article here and cited my reason as WP:ADV. Zinnober9 (talk) 22:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

This IP editor is not listening to the community and has become disruptive because of that. I think a block is in order. They keep repeating their incorrect opinions and ignored everything said by other more experienced editors.

Their disruptive edits have continued since this discussion has given them feedback. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 22:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Blocked for two weeks for disruptive editing. As always, welcome review of the block by all. Daniel (talk) 23:06, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Given the long term that the IP has had the same owner I think this is an appropriate length to get their attention. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 23:32, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Barlan Samson

Seems to be creating ridicules content like List of Blocks on Minecraft which is completely unsourced, and it seems the user has created numerous versions of the page before that has been deleted. This too me seems disruptive to wikipedia and I can't see it being stopped unless an admin takes strong action. Govvy (talk) 09:48, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

User hasn't edited in a month. Unless they return and start doing this kind of thing again, I don't think there's a need to do anything. (Non-administrator comment) I'm dumb. – Rummskartoffel 10:50, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

@Rummskartoffel: Incorrect, they created the now delete article, which I assume means their recent contrib got deleted also. Govvy (talk) 11:32, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

You're right, I didn't pay attention to that. Struck. – Rummskartoffel 11:41, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

It's also a copyvio - it's an unattributed copy paste of a page from the minecraft wiki. For some reason they've also been copying and pasting the talk page across, compare Draft talk:List of Blocks in Minecraft to https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Block. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 12:02, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• I have deleted all of their Minecraft pages; the images alone would fail NFCC, let alone the text (such as it is ) being a copyvio. All were completely unsourced, as well. Black Kite (talk) 14:21, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Perhaps the user does want to add blatant Minecraft content in Wikipedia which is illegal per WP:NOT. A quick response from the admins is possible for him not to post "oh no, not another Minecraft content in drafts" thing.

I also nominated one of his now-deleted pages before in the MfD but it was kept per some obvious reason.

As for the image thing I still don't encounter such thing before (I'm not in Commons, sorry).

As for the copyvio thing said by a fellow IP above I'll better ignore it as it might lead to another or such a bad thing around us.

Look at the user's talk page especially the names of his deleted drafts it is all Minecraft-related. A topic block, specifically a block on any video-game related articles would have been feasible for this action... But still keep an eye on him. User:Ahthga Yram_{Talk with me! I want to change my name!} 15:45, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

And their response to the draft being deleted has been to vandalise someone else's user and talk pages by moving them to draftspace and blanking them. Can someone move User:TheWikiholic's user page and talk page back to their proper locations? 192.76.8.91 (talk) 02:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

User page has been brought back. I want to say something that Barlan Samson is editing Philippine-related articles in his contributions page. User:Ahthga Yram_{Talk with me! I want to change my name!} 03:38, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

It's not a lot of editing going on, but going and vandalising another users, user-page, is another red-flag. Govvy (talk) 09:42, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Good day and the user removed the notice of the speedy deletion nomination of one of his Minecraft-related drafts, uh oh... User:Ahthga Yram_{Talk with me! I want to change my name!} 09:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Can we just block them already? -- Rockstone^{[Send me a message!]} 05:17, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Threat of physical harm by User:CancerCunsellor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Does this need attention? [349]. Courtesy ping Alexbrn. Thanks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:22, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Its been removed but any threat of violence should earn a ban.Slatersteven (talk) 10:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

They've already been solipsism-blocked for it. A ban at this point would be unnecessary; I don't think they're going to be allowed back even assuming they're not some LTA sock. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^{Jéské Couriano} 10:26, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I assume it's one of our less pleasant LTAs. A CU would be helpful. Acroterion (talk) 10:29, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:HassanTNTA

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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HassanTNTA has been uploading non-free works claiming that they are the copyright holder. There was a previous ANI in which this user stated: Please don't ban me, I swear I'll not upload any more copyrighted works. However, they did exactly that with three images on Wikipedia today. I started a discussion with this user, giving them the benefit of the doubt that they just didn't understand how fair-use works. After, they uploaded two more non-free files to Commons: File:GGST Sol Badguy.png and File:GGST Sol Badguy.png. I believe, at minimum, a global temp ban should be put in place. — Pbrks (talk) 15:19, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Then just delete my account already.— Preceding unsigned comment added by HassanTNTA (talk • contribs)

No, but we can block it for repeatedly posting non-free images, and continuing to ignore requests to not do so. RickinBaltimore (talk) 15:29, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Mesut Ozil

• In Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution#Noticeboards_2, it states that "you may ask an administrator to evaluate the conduct of the user." If the following item of mine is inappropriate here, I would be grateful if you can instruct me to other dispute resolution methods.
• I have interpreted the following dispute as a conduct dispute rather than a content one. Please correct me if you think my interpretation of this dispute is wrong.
• In Talk:Mesut Özil ([[350]]), the honourable editor User:Walter Görlitz accuses me of being a nationalist. Despite my categorical denials based on my supporting evidence (I deem some of my previous edits are sufficient to disprove this honourable editor's claims on my personal view of the world - nationalism - which I reject completely and utterly. e.g. I have been trying to improve anti-Turkish sentiment and anti-Greek sentiment articles at the same time - for which I have also draft content for both articles' improvements.), I have still being kept accused and labelled of a nationalist, which makes me extremely uncomfortable and unhappy.
• I can accept if I have made an editorial mistake causing these personal accusations, but such edits do not reflect my political view. However, the honourable editor User:Walter Görlitz thinks, otherwise.
• I kindly request you to guide us in this dispute, if possible. Many thanks for your time.

17kuti (talk) 16:04, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any such accusation. In this diff, Walter Görlitz even clarified that he's not accusing you of anything, and only meant that your edit is similar to that of Turkish nationalists. Also, maybe don't use phrases like "Kurdification attempts" because it's not a good look. Woodroar (talk) 23:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. That was the purpose of my edit. I have seen similar edits, but the sources speak for themselves. I probably should have just written, "sources do not support rationale provided with removal". Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks. I believe and think that the honourable editor Walter Görlitz had said everything necessary to label me as a nationalist apart from directly stating that "you are a nationalist."

However, everything has been resolved from my point of view now since this honourable editor conceded that his/her first edit summary has the potential for the culprit and could be written without involving any presupposition of my personality, my view of the world and my intention for this edit. In addition, I understand and imagine the honourable editor Walter Görlitz's frustration due to dealing with all these nationalists on such a trivial item - and his immediate skipping of many steps in Graham's hierarchy of disagreement - possibly I would do the same if I were him/her. Nevertheless, I kindly want to remind him/her the principle of presumption of innocence. One million edits/reverts by nationalists on the same item cannot and do not necessarily lead to the conclusion that I am a nationalist if I edit the same item posteriori. I couldn't care less if Mesut Ozil is a Kurdish or a Turkish or a Malay. My motivation for this edit has been clear: I had seen two extremely unreliable sources regarding a living person while I happened to be there to add something about his public relations to some of the politicians. My mistake was the edit without discussion that I had safely assumed that this extreme non-verifiability could be apparent to literally anyone -novice or expert user- and safely considered some of the Wikipedia rules stated in Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons (e.g. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page.) Yet immediate revert by the honourable editor Walter Görlitz, and the content of the edit summary (which I deemed personal rather than to the topic) led me to defend myself in terms of my personality as well as the verifiability of sources. Finally and unfortunately, I ended up doing a research on a topic which I literally did not care before. (I decided to finalise the research, but this is for another discussion on content.) I believe that the issue of the conduct of the user has been resolved.

Lastly I kindly remind the honourable editor Walter Görlitz again that the principle of presumption of innocence is a real and a not-rarely-happening notion; my solid understanding of anything does not make me of that thing (re:"imply a solid understanding of Turkish nationalism"), and please put a right amount of effort to acknowledge and disseminate the different choices of identities made by groups of people since Kurds had suffered a lot from many denials to their identities (e.g. Denial of Kurds by Turkey) (re:"I know that Turkish and Kurdish nationalists see a distinction between being both Kurdish and Turkish, but the real world does not.").

I believe that the honourable editor Woodroar is right about stating that the phrase of "Kurdification attempts" in that edit was very ugly; yet I am afraid it also was intentional. My personal experience on reading the ugly fights on "Turkification/Arabisation attempts" on Saladin or "Kurdification attemps" on Ismail I etc. was led me to coin a term that (which I decided to never use again) the item in question is so very poorly resourced that it looks like virtually fabricated by a nationalist of the sort. It was my mistake, and learned my lesson thanks to your feedback.

Many thanks both of you. I wish you a very pleasant experience of Wikipediaing in the future. 17kuti (talk) 19:16, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Racist and Disruptive Right Wing Hindu Nationalist

A disruptive IP user;

• 2402:3A80:1102:E15C:A867:8C24:49C6:AA9E (and his other IP addresses beginning with 2402:3A80... which can all be found on the Talk:Love Jihad page contribution history)
  • 2402:3A80:113A:F442:E43F:F91D:4117:2AF4
  • 2402:3A80:112A:BB03:9C24:AECB:5D97:5D2B
  • 2402:3A80:113F:194:E07A:47B0:2C86:2244
  • 2402:3A80:112A:C814:D1BC:941A:6FC6:928A
  • 2402:3A80:1102:861F:8140:C253:71C7:530A
  • ÷2402:3A80:110B:3915:71DD:BB9A:9BFE:354B

...is causing significant disruption to Wikipedia. The user is repeatedly not engaging in good faith, and on the contrary is repeatedly engaging in petty and racist identity politics. The user is clearly a right wing Hindu nationalist who keeps trying to cause drama and hound productive members of the Wikipedia community.

He first came to the community's attention in the talk page of the Love Jihad article (where he clearly believes the conspiracy theory is real along with the absurd idea that Wikipedia editors are "paid" by some shadowy organisation) where he has repeatedly been accusing others of being "unbelievers", "Islamists", "destroyers of Hindu civilisation" and a whole host of other nonsense (such as "He has joined Wikipedia to support Islamists, Muslim fundamentalists and Pakistanis").

He also seems to have a particular dislike of White people.

He is now going around WP:CANVASSING other users in an attempt to try to bully me to stay away from articles that have grabbed my interest (effectively engaging in Witch Hunting). On top of this he is assuming my racial identity, being extremely racially abusive and does not seem to want to participate a positive member of the Wikipedia community.

He also seems familiar with Wikipedia's policies which makes me strongly suspect that he has previously been banned from wikipedia before. His IP sock accounts are also causing significant problems. Can someone please help me out with this? NarSakSasLee (talk) 16:19, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Since that range has produced nothing but garbage for at least the last couple weeks, I'm blocking Special:Contributions/2402:3a80:1102:e15c:a867:8c24:49c6:aa9e/42 for 3 days. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:19, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for sanctioning the IP. However, I feel given the nature of his actions a 3 day block seems rather tame...? He simply does not engage in good faith editing. Rather he always ends up causing disruption as he repeatedly tries to derail threads. NarSakSasLee (talk) 18:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

It's a pretty large range, and before the last couple weeks there were some useful edits from someone else there, so I want to see if something shorter works. If it resumes I'll at least double the duration. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:07, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Persistent vandalism by IPs on Islam-related articles

• 2409:4063:2315:5A3F:60C6:9503:888B:6A9 (talk · contribs)
• 2409:4063:418b:13b6:4c60:c163:5c60:5ab8 (talk · contribs)
• 2409:4063:418b:13b6:19c9:3ba5:be4c:5704 (talk · contribs) and similar IPs have been targeting a multitude of Islam-related articles for several weeks. Articles include Rafida, Islam in Iraq, Anti-Sunnism, and many others. They typically change "Shia Islam" to "Shia faith", "Islam" to "Sunni Islam", change percentages of Islamic groups, always increasing the number of Sunnis. They seldom give edit summaries, but if they do, they reveal a strong anti-Shia POV, e.g. "Rsk6400 you rafidi Shia." here ("Rafidi" is a slur for Shia Muslims used by Sunni Muslims), or "Most Sunni Muslims don't consider Shias to be Muslim. Just go to pew research center survey. I'm not spreading hate just telling you the truth. Now report me" here. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:05, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• 2409:4063:2315:5A3F:119D:B1B8:C729:2B87 (talk · contribs) is the most recent IP repeating the same kind of edit at Rafida. --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:26, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Filedelinkerbot is malfunctioning

I think this bot is removing images that shouldn't be deleted. Unsure, check divine mercy hill edit log. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:300:4103:940:80E6:94B0:85BD:FF8A (talk) 18:05, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Appears to be working correctly. It has removed five images from Divine Mercy Shrine (Misamis Oriental) (I'm guessing this is the article you mean), as the images have been deleted on Commons due to copyright issues. 92.5.2.97 (talk) 18:19, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

RGW by User:Crowell78 on Bill Cosby

Hi Crowell78 (talk · contribs) is engaged in WP:TE on the Bill Cosby article repeatedly adding non consensual content to the lede. I warned the user here. I would have taken it as a content dispute until I noticed today that the user is also reverted HawaiianHulaLog (talk · contribs) comments on the talk page here. TrueQuantum (talk · contribs) has also I think attempted to discuss the content with the user on the talk page Talk:Bill_Cosby#allegations_should_be_mentioned_in_lede. Its a pretty vanilla content dispute (not a bad one even), but the user should not just TE the content into the lede and then revert user's talk page comments. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:48, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• This is a content dispute that's being discussed on the Bill Cosby talk page. There are several editors on there who believe that the accusations against Cosby deserve to stay in the lead as they have for a while, but TrueQuantum keeps removing it. So I'm afraid this is a disingenuous and misleading report by Jtbobwaysf.

As for HawaiianHulaLog, the editor is obviously here just to troll. That's why I reverted them. And I actually thought about reporting them. As can be seen by their contributions, they are making wildly sarcastic comments on talk pages about how all men are rapists and all women should be believed, etc. Their post prior was oversighted by an admin because it was so ludicrous and defamatory/libelous. Pinging Firefangledfeathers (talk · contribs) who reverted them, and TheSandDoctor (talk · contribs) who warned them before they made the latest post on the talk page. --Crowell78 (talk) 21:43, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• Btw, for clarity, if we're going by consensus which is what I think was meant here, it's 4 (Asaprocky, IP, Jpcase and DeCausa) in favor of keeping it in the lead, against 2 (TrueQuantum & Jtbobwaysf). Also TQ acknowledged on the TP that the consensus seemed to be in favor of keeping it in the lead and yet afterwards proceeded to remove it again.

All this mind you because of one measly sentence that summarizes in a neutral manner a key aspect of the body and the subject's notability as covered in RS, but yet doesn't even illustrate the severity and uniqueness of the allegations (50+ women and nearly all drug-facilitated sexual assault). --Crowell78 (talk) 22:35, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

We shouldn't hold reverting HawaiianHulaLog's comments against anyone. Pure trolling, and I'd love to see a ban. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 22:00, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• There's a certain poetry in someone repeatedly adding non consensual content to Bill Cosby. EEng 21:46, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  Ugh, that's dark, EEng. El_C 05:20, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  But you laughed -- admit it. EEng 10:58, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  Hold on, let me read from this index card: I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may tend to x me... El_C 11:51, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  Even with the card there can be slipups. [351] EEng 18:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  That dog can sell anything. El_C 21:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Just no. It looks like a couple editors have taken the Cosby conviction being overturned to try to remove other negative material from the lead and then accuse those restoring it of "righting great wrongs". The material in question in this particular case is information about whether to mention the allegations (not the conviction, but the many allegations that of course were not litigated). Crowell78 didn't add that material but rather restored it after TrueQuantum et al. repeatedly removed it. If there is POV-pushing going on, it doesn't appear to be Crowell78. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:14, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Just noting here that HawaiianHulaLog has been WP:NOTHERE blocked by Bbb23, which is a move I support and would've probably either gone the DS route of a topic ban from BLPs or blocked outright based on the latest comment had I seen it first. I believe holding the revert of their edits against anyone to not be the right course of action; I have revdel'd it as I did their last one yesterday. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 00:44, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Here because I was pinged. My involvement was one post to the talk page thread where the three editors involved have been getting into it. I can’t see that Crowell78 has been engaged in TE or RGW. This is just a content dispute which is somewhat heated. TrueQuantum and the OP, Jtbobwaysf, seem to believe that the overturning of the conviction should result in the stripping of all the allegations from the lead. Crowell78 believes they are still relevant to the lead. (My personal opinion is that TrueQuantum and Jtbobwaysf have a strong POV which they are trying to push through per Rhododentrites’ post above.) My post on the talk page made the simple point that those allegations were in the lead and had consensus support as not UNDUE back in 2018 before the conviction and I don’t see the conviction and its overturning alters that as there was no implication for the other allegations. (Although, to be clear, the overturning should be added). Crowell78 reverting HawaiianHulaLog’s post seems fine as that user was obviously trolling. This should be closed with a trout for Jtbobwaysf and instruction for everyone to calm down. DeCausa (talk) 06:35, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• I'm here because I was pinged and seem to be discussed as participating in a dispute. There is no dispute here in my perspective. I really couldn't care less about Cosby and am not seeking to push any personal POV. I simply want to follow our shared BLP guidelines and take into account the spirit of WP:BLPCRIME. The lede in 2018 was accurate and objective because Cosby at the time was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of his peers in a court of law and convicted of aggravated indecent assault. But now the Pennsylvania Supreme Court has overturned Cosby's conviction. That means that according to American jurisprudence Cosby is now presumed innocent. There is already whole entire sections in Cosby's biography that discuss all 60+ accusations in detail. But the lede is an especially sensitive place for a BLP. To argue that everything that was in the lede when Cosby was found guilty should still be there now that he is legally presumed innocent is contrary to our policies. It seems to be POV pushing to argue that nothing should change here when this is a monumental shift. TrueQuantum (talk) 14:33, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Just as a point of order: it does not mean he's "presumed innocent," it just means the process used to convict him was tainted & the conviction is no longer valid. Innocence & guilt are no longer relevant. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:26, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
    • You should actually research what you are saying here. Whenever any citizen for any situation is not found guilty, or if that guilty conviction is overturned, then that citizen is quite as a matter of fact PRESUMED INNOCENT. This is the basic foundation of a free and fair democratic society. Literally nobody is "found innocent" in a court of law because everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The only places where this is not true is probably North Korea and the former Soviet Union. TrueQuantum (talk) 19:33, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
  • @TrueQuantum: What you said about the lede in 2018 is irrelevant to my point, if it was in answer to that. I was referring to the lead as it was immediately before the conviction in 2018. Before his conviction, there was a paragraph in the lede on the allegations against him, which were not subject to his conviction and overturning. The overturning of the conviction has no bearing on that. 17:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• As DeCausa and Crowell78 have noted in their comments above, consensus had been in favor of including the accusations in the article's lede before Cosby's conviction had even occurred, and current consensus is in favor of continuing to include these accusations in the lede. In fact, upon looking through the Cosby article's history, I'm noticing that the accusations were included in the lede at least as early as 2015 - before Cosby had even been charged. If the accusations were notable enough for the lede at a time before Cosby had even gone to trial, then they should certainly still be notable enough for the lede now. The fact that Cosby went to trial and had his conviction overturned doesn't make the accusations against him less notable than they would be had he never faced trial in the first place. --Jpcase (talk) 16:00, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

72.230.249.71

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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A month ago another admin (User:Ponyo) blocked this ip (72.230.249.71) for a month for Unsourced or Poorly Sourced Content, Now on July 4th , this ip is back doing the same thing and adding massive hoax of content to articles, which were false. Even if this ip comes back and do the same thing over and over, I don't think this ip is not here to build an encyclopedia.. take look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/72.230.249.71 Chip3004 (talk) 21:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Seconding this request. They vandalize in sprees. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 21:40, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

187.87.77.43

This IP address is changing material in concert tour articles, including removing and reverting redirects that have already been deemed so, as they were undersourced. In the article End of the Road World Tour, he has continuously added misleading information about certain venues in the European leg of 2022, as well as adding shows that were not part of the tour. Outside of the article, when removing redirect from pages, he ended up threatening Richard3120 with another IP which I am certain is from him on the Ballbreaker World Tour. I have been reverting his material, but he continues to revert back, and not leave any reliable sources for his claims other than saying that "it is back". HorrorLover555 (talk) 01:34, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

His IP address and the others he's used

• 187.87.77.43
• 2804:FEC:213:6700:5C60:CA05:7CA9:F815
• 2804:FEC:213:6700:7D12:A402:A5C7:A555
• 2804:FEC:213:6700:859:CFA4:F37B:307D

Blocked the /64 around the IPv6 address, and the v4 address. ^{!ɘM γɿɘυϘ}⅃ϘƧ 02:11, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

IP 74.88.193.39

Resolved

User has previously been blocked after being warned several times about making unconstructive edits on articles about highways in New Jersey. The block has expired, and the user is continuing to make unconstructive edits of the same style as before, most recently on Interstate 295 (Delaware–Pennsylvania) and New Jersey Route 33. I would suggest an indefinite block. Needforspeed888 (talk) 01:38, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I have given them another 2 weeks. Same person, same problem. If they try to communicate then the duration can be reconsidered. Feel free to come directly to my talk page if this continues after the block has expired. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 01:53, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Continued disruptive editing, copyright issues, from Kanto7

Kanto7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There has been persistent issues with the editing of Kanto7, most recently with regards to inserting large swathes of unsourced text into article with zero attribution or explanation. (Examples: [352][353][354][355][356].) These edits are very poorly formatted, with strange spaces before punctuation, and what even appear to be picture captions. My guess is that they are pure machine translations, but I can't be sure. On occasion they have noted they were copying off other wikipedias (Spanish, Dutch), but it's possible that they are also copying from elsewhere given this warning for the now deleted Danish Iceland (currently a redirect, perhaps an admin may be able to check a deleted version to confirm). These rare edit summaries, given only during edit wars, seem to be basically all of Kanto7's recent communication, even most of their reverts lack an edit summary. They have received numerous warnings, going back a year regarding communication ([357][358][359][360][361]), edit warring ([362][363]), and the need for sources/attribution ([364][365][366][367]) (examples are non-exhaustive). These mostly go unreplied to, and judging by continuing actions, apparently ignored. (They have replied on their talkpage before, so they do know it exists.) There have been two AN/I cases opened before (December 2020 and February 2021), but no action was taken in either. I'm not sure if this is WP:CIR or a deliberate refusal to communicate, but this disruption has taken up the time of numerous editors across many pages, and as of this third report it is well past the point where some administrative action needs to be taken on the matter. CMD (talk) 05:58, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I left a warning at User talk:Kanto7#Warning regarding collaboration and copying. The edits adding large amounts of text are obviously copied from somewhere but a couple of searches have failed to find them. Interestingly, this edit has seven occurrences of a heading including the bogus text "Edit" (search for "Edit ===" to find them). I propose waiting for a day or two. If there is an explanation or if problems cease, do nothing and wait for next time. Otherwise, block indefinitely with a note that they can be unblocked as soon as they explain their edits and agree to not edit war when others revert them. Feel free to ping me if any developments occur although I should see anything here or at the user's talk. Johnuniq (talk) 10:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Kanto7 has been a problematic editor from day 1, particularly in their penchant for adding content without sourcing. I had the pleasure of welcoming them with a unsourced content warning ([368]), had to follow up later with an additional note on the lack of sourcing ([369]), and again last month ([370]). A quick perusal of their talk page shows that I'm not the only one concerned about their edits. For someone reverted so often, their use of talk pages is paltry (86% main page versus 7% article talk pages [371]). I think it is time to pull the plug. --RegentsPark (comment) 16:28, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree but what about their reply and my subsequent warning at User talk:Kanto7#Warning regarding collaboration and copying? That section could be evidence supporting an indefinite block on the grounds that their English is weak, their editing is problematic (e.g. "Edit ===" above), and thinking that unattributed copying of text was ok despite their talk page is the final straw. On the other hand, they did reply. Johnuniq (talk) 01:13, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

It was a very limited reply that did not remotely allude to the issues of "collaboration" and "repeat contested edits" that you raised. The quite basic issue of WP:V also remains unaddressed. They have now made a small edit to Spanish Guinea which while not an issue in itself, does nothing to address the issues that have been raised with the text they have edit-warred in there. CMD (talk) 02:16, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

There are also definitely WP:CIR issues. In this edit (which both CMD and I reverted), for example, Kanto7 replaced a large chunk of well sourced content with largely unsourced content (possibly copied from the Spanish wikipedia but unacknowledged). This replacing of content on the engish wiki by copying from other wikis without examining sourcing of either the copied text or the removed text is not only symptomatic of an editor who doesn't understand sourcing but is also a symptom that they can't make meaningful contributions in their own right. Frankly, Kanto7 is just a time sink for other editors. --RegentsPark (comment) 03:57, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Isvind

Isvind (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User keeps altering/removing sourced information that doesn't suit his POV, notably at Pan-Turkic related articles such as Nihal Atsız and Pan-Turkism, where he keeps coming back to edit war.

Nihal Atsız;

[372] [373] [374] [375] [376] [377] [378]

Pan-Turkism;

[379] [380] [381] [382] [383] [384] [385] [386] [387] [388]

--HistoryofIran (talk) 11:27, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: What POV? In the Nihal Atsız article I just replaced the schools he attended with a more accurate information, also included in the source. In the Pan-Turkism article, which I explained my reason in the talk page, I just wanted to get more attention to reach a consensus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pan-Turkism&oldid=1028908303

As seen here, you said earlier that I should take it to talk page. But when I do it, no one cares.

Regarding the other edits I always explained what I do and included the sources. Where did I do POV edits?--Isvind (talk) 15:42, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Is that so? "He studied for some time in French and German schools, then entered the military medical school in 1922, but abandoned it three year" page 205, Ultra-Nationalist Literature in the Turkish Republic: A Note on the Novels of Hüseyin Nihâl Atsiz. How does omitting information make it more accurate? If there were more schools he went to, why not add them?

No one cares, or perhaps no one agrees with you? Also, you created a section on the talk page on 1 July [389], and proceeded to continue edit warring in the same day, not even waiting a day and completely ignoring WP:CONSENSUS [390], that was certainly not part of the advice I gave you. Edit warring does get you attention indeed, hence why I reported you. And how does this justify all your other edits? "Explaining" your edits does not make them constructive. I'll let an admin deal with this. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The last time I editwarred with someone (also in the Pan-Turkism page) someone came to talk and we discussed, ultimately to reach a consensus which I'm not violating since. However, this time, it doesn't happen. Someone says I should explain myself in talk, but when I do, no one cares. At first I thought they didn't see, this is the reason of reverting. But apparently they just don't care.

Regarding the last Atsız edit, I still don't understand the reason for reverting.

Regarding other Atsız edits, I added new information and expanded existing information about both his personal life and political views. How and why isn't it constructive?--Isvind (talk) 16:06, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

If there were more schools he went to, why not add them?

I saw it now. I'm adding.--Isvind (talk) 16:17, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The pan turkism article has 172 watchers, of which 23 have recently viewed the edit history. If 22 people besides yourself aren't bothering to answer or to agree with you then that's a somewhat clear indication that your edit is in the far end of the "no consensus to do so" area of edits. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 20:51, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Demand by IP

Admins eyes please on 106.204.234.208, who has made an ultimatum(?) for 500,000,000RS (6 million dollars and change).--Eostrix  (^{🦉 hoot} _hoot🦉) 12:48, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

How about a 500,000,000 year site ban?Slatersteven (talk) 12:53, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Also a revdel is very necessary. Lot of people aren't very tech savvy and for someone like that it could appear very frightening. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 12:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, not that I am sure how or why they would pay up anyway, so its just trolling.Slatersteven (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven, yes of course it's likely just trolling. But, um.. I think you should remove the NOTDUMB message from the recipient's talk page. I don't think it would help them if they aren't in on it. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 13:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry I will claify why I posted it.Slatersteven (talk) 13:05, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

How did I end up blocking both 112.79.110.143 and 106.204.234.208? What a mystery! El_C 13:29, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

37.212.0.0/17

I tried to report this at AIV, but an edit filter prevents me from doing so with the message "An automated filter has identified this edit as potentially unconstructive, so it has been disallowed."

Vandalism across multiple articles (primarily, but not exclusively in BLPs with edits like unsourced add/change of birthdate, years_active, spouse, nationality, occupation, etc.) over at least the last several months. Might be LTA/VCV. Favonian blocked the range from editing one BLP article for one year and blocked two sub-ranges (see list below) entirely for 6 months (also for BLP violations). However, the vandalism is widespread across more than just that one article or those two sub-ranges, with a spike in last 30 hours or so from 37.212.65.33 (e.g., against Shaun Fleming, Eleanor Noble, Oz Perkins, Spencer Fox).

Action requested: The 37.212.64.0/20 range should be fully blocked and perhaps extended to the entire /17 range. I note, however, that there are hundreds of recent edits in the 37.212.0.0/18 sub-range on volleyball-related articles, that, upon a cursory review, may not be vandalism or attributable to LTA/VCV. Consider, too, extending all of the blocks to one or more years.

Below is a partial list of 37.212 IPs/ranges that have these sorts of vandalism edits.

• 37.212.0.0/17 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) – blocked on May 11 from editing Oliver Grainger for 1 year for BLP violations
  • 37.212.48.0/20 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) – blocked on June 25 for 6 months for BLP violations
    • 37.212.53.196 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
    • 37.212.62.177 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
    • 37.212.61.226 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
  • 37.212.80.0/20 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) – blocked on June 19 for 6 months for BLP violations
    • 37.212.84.131 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
    • 37.212.88.63 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
    • 37.212.93.225 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
  • 37.212.64.0/20 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))
    • 37.212.65.33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) – 14 vandalism/unconstructive edits in the last day or so
    • 37.212.66.28 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
    • 37.212.78.7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

– 108.56.139.120 (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Trying to limit the collateral damage, I have blocked 37.212.64.0/20. Now 3 of the 8 /20 sub-ranges of the /17 range are blocked, so it may only be a matter of time before all of it is blocked, and there'll be much rending of cloth and gnashing of teeth. Favonian (talk) 15:23, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Personal attack by user Future Perfect at Sunrise

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I don't think there is much to tell. This edit shows everything.--V. E. (talk) 14:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• It does. It shows that you complained about a source being removed from an article, FPaS agreed with that removal and called the source "bullshit". He called a source "bullshit" - there was no attack on an editor. For that, you slapped him with a badly-formatted civility warning. Frankly, if I were FPaS I don't think I'd have been as polite. Black Kite (talk) 14:14, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• @Black Kite: Are there any civility limits when commenting on sources cited by other editors? For example if someone else said "This fucking source which is ought to be burned in hell is unreliable" to describe another source cited by another editor, would it still not violate civility? Or should I assume that in this case the word "bullshit" is on the lower end of civility spectrum? I'm just asking to know for the next time.--V. E. (talk) 14:28, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Black Kite, am I allowed to say fuckin' on this website? Asking for a (fuckin') friend... El_C 14:35, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

No, not really as we can say what we like...about a SOURCE, what we can't do is say what we like about an EDITOR.Slatersteven (talk) 14:38, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

There have been a number of discussions about using "fuck" on Wikipedia. Generally speaking, it seems to be okay to say "fuck", but not to direct an epithet containing "fuck" at another editor. That is to say, telling a specific editor to fuck off is a personal attack, and sanctionable. No comment on the merits of this report. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 14:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Calling an editor "fucker", sure, but isn't saying "fuck off" just a vulgar "go away"? I don't see how that's a personal attack. Usedtobecool ☎️ 14:48, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree, but that was not how the last discussion I participated in went, as I recall. Could be that consensus was that it's "uncivil" but not a personal attack? Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 14:50, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Hey, don't forget about fuck head — endless variation. El_C 14:51, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) These racist apologist sources are a disgrace — not that this reflects on you in any way, dear editor, I would never dream... El_C 14:43, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) On the merits: FPaS' opinion that a source is "obvious bullshit", posted below a request for opinions on that source, is so far removed from a personal attack that it calls into question the motive of this report. Yes, when a source is bullshit, we should call it bullshit. If you were directly addressing the author of the article then maybe it could be construed as a personal attack, but that's not even close to what happened here. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 14:48, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP editors on a 'mission'

• 49.207.134.142
• 49.207.138.151
• 49.207.142.150

These three (at least) IP editors, all in the 49.207. range and all geolocating to the same neck of the wood, are on a mission to brand Leif Erikson as a Catholic missionary. I don't know if the editors are one or more people, and whether being multiple editors (technically) amounts to edit warring, but maybe something could be done to prevent this? (PS: I'm notifying the first of the IPs on the above list of this ANI, but only the first.) Ta, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 16:27, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The range is a /20, so I decided to semiprotect the page for a couple weeks. I see it was configured to have PC indefinitely enabled, and my page protection skills are very rusty; if the PC falls off after the semiprotection expires just ping me and I'll reinstate it. (Also, underrated header!) The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:15, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Persistent disruption, adding copyright violation content

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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First as 24.164.122.97 (talk · contribs), now as Ariesday (talk · contribs). Rev/delete, please. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 17:50, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ortizesp topic ban

I was under the impression that Ortizesp (talk · contribs) was under an indef topic ban related to page moves (i.e. not moving pages without using RM). So was Ortizesp. This all flows from a series of unfortunate events, detailed at:

1. May 2019 ANI;
2. June 2019 ANI; and
3. August 2019 ANI.

The second ANI report did actually result in a two-month topic ban, introduced by @Kudpung:.

Anyway, I recently approached Ortizesp about requesting a loosening the topic ban. But if he isn't even under one, it's all immaterial...can anybody clarify whether or not he is? If not then great (although I still suggest he uses RM for all but clear cut/non-controversial moves to prevent further issues!), if so then I think it's time we discussed changing it. GiantSnowman 19:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• It doesn't look to me like they have any topic ban, GiantSnowman. An indefinite topic ban from page moves was proposed here (by yourself), but, by my count, didn't get consensus, nor was the discussion closed. So the two-month ban, long since expired, appears to be all of that nature that they ever had. This is supported by the fact that I don't find the username here nor here. Bishonen | tålk 20:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC).

Persistent disruption by Nuevousuario1011 on Napoleonic articles

Nuevousuario1011 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has, since they began editing, been disruptive on Napoleonic related articles, constantly attempting to change the results and other information to make the French look better, always against the manual of style and infobox instructions, and frequently despite the references saying the opposite. Some general examples of this.

• Battle of La Rothière Changes the result from "Coalition victory" to "Coalition tactical victory, French strategic victory". Repeated in this edit.
• Battle of Eylau Changes the result from "Inconclusive" to "French Tactical Victory, Russian retreat". Also similar change from "Inconclusive" to "French Tactical Victory", with an edit summary of "read the sources who you cited and you will got this result" (more in-depth analysis of this article later)
• Battle of Austerlitz Changes the result from "French victory" to "Decisive French victory". Also see identical changes
• Battle of Ulm Changes the result from "French victory" to "Decisive French victory"
• Battle of Quatre Bras Changes the result from "Coalition tactical victory, Strategic French victory" to "Strategic French victory, Tactically Indecisive". At same article also makes repeated attempts to change the result from "Coalition victory" to "Coalition tactical victory, Strategic French victory". Also attempts to change the result from "Coalition victory" to "Inconclusive", and even attempts to change the result from "Coalition victory" to "French victory"
• Battle of Toulouse (1814) Changes the result from "Indecisive. Allied victory and French victory are both claimed" to "French victory"

At the Battle of Eylau (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) article, the "Inconclusive" result was originally added in March 2019 by an IP editor, with four different references. I have provided quotes from three of them at Talk:Battle of Eylau#Fabricated claims which prove they support the added result, so I have little doubt the fourth reference will as well. Despite this Nuevousuario1011 has repeatedly changed this without any references at all.

• 17 September 2019, with an edit summary of "Changed the result from indecisive to French Victory, as all the sources including Wikipedia in all the other idioms say, as well as the analysis from a military point of view, and as it was before the last edits of this page"
• 13:57, 24 July 2020, with an edit summary of "read the sources who you cited and you will got this result"
• 11:26, 27 June 2021, with an edit summary of "Well the battle was a french tactical victory, we could argue about what it really achieved to say "strategic", but as the new rules does not tolerate mixed results, the defacto result is the one who at leas won in either category, thus the French won. They were checked but not defeated, they took the field, etc" (while also adding back all the references that don't support their change at all)

Their "reading of references to obtain results is best demonstrated in the next article, Battle of Quatre Bras (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Per the diffs above, they have repeatedly tried to change the result of this battle, see Talk:Battle of Quatre Bras#Making it up as you go along for more extended details on this. The different versions include one of the following additions each time; "Strategic French victory", "Inconclusive" or "French victory". Each time they cited the same reference, pahe 378 of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica which can be seen here and contains nothing clear about who won that particular battle. Their similar interpreation of source material to try and claim a French victory at another article can be seen in this talk page post, where they say Acording to the sources the battle of Redinha was a succes by the Frenchs and a failure for the British, (also known as) French Victory, followed by a bunch of quotes that say nothing like that.

Last but not least, we have their edits at Battle of Friedland (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), which resulted in an IP editor complaining at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Battle of Friedland Page (for full disclosure, I have reverted to Nuevousuario1011's incorrect version several times, believing some unexplained IP edits were introducing errors, when in fact they were attempting to fix the deliberate errors introduced by Nuevousuario1011).

• 21 December 2019 with edit summary of "Numbers as presented in wikipedia in french spanish italian, etc with references, cleaned repeated sources", changes the French strength from 80,000 to 60,000 and the Russian strength from 46,000 to 84,000, adding a book reference by David Chandler to support the figures (the several pre-existing book citations contain quotes which confirmed the previous figures were correct). The IP editor and Djmaschek have both confirmed the claimed Chandler citation is false, his figure is 80,000 for the French strength.
• 10 July 2020 Reverts back their incorrect figures
• 23 September 2020 Reverts back their incorrect figures, with an edit summary of "Restoring the numbers before last modification, respect the sources please, and remember first than all the order of battle, to made estimations, the Russians deployed more than 60.000 on the western bank of the Alle river, but overall, there where more than 80,000, the French on the other hand where understengthed". The "respect the sources" statement is particularly breathtaking.
• 11 November 2020" Reverts back their incorrect figures, with an edit summary of "the other way around, i already explained". This was after the previous editor (visible on left hand side of diff) said "There was a small but very major mistake in the page, Russian vs the French numbers were flipped, as clearly indicated in the sources"

Since then they have made several edits changing infobox figures, which I have detailed as problematic at Talk:Battle of Friedland#Infobox (which the editor refuses to reply to directly) and User talk:Djmaschek#Seeking help from an expert, and validated user. (yet again) (where the editor makes a series of bizarre claimes, saying an order of battle claims a Russian strength of 77,000 and that a university professor published a "break down" of the respective strengths, neither of which are true).

This editor is either deliberately adding false information to Wikipedia, or completely lacks the competence to edit. I do not know which and don't particularly care, but something needs to be done to stop this editor from damaging the encyclopedia any further. FDW777 (talk) 19:24, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Here is my answer to the warring from the acusation from the same user in no more than an hour ago. Please take a look, the same who i told before, i ask cordially to you to look for.Nuevousuario1011 (talk) 19:33, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Every edit who i made is warred by FDW777, thus is imposible not to war about it. I tried to explain, show sources and everything within a month, if commited a mistake then i apologize, but the user take this as a sign of incompetence from me. The rivalry seems to be from early June when i contested a change who he made at the Quatre Bras article. In any case he got what he wanted, and i asked him if he could help with another articles, and just used it to speak against me. Please look at everything, edits, talk pages, third user talk pages, wiki project talk pages, and the only constant is the user FDW777 reverting my own edits, using credible words to defend an inaccurate fact. By the ways on the article of Berlin i talked to the user who made the change and told me who indeed there was no confrontation.Nuevousuario1011 (talk) 18:51, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I was also asking other users especially admins for help, and the one who give me the welcome (who didn't answer) help regarding the rules of and what is aceptable or not. However again the same user just revert edits, and when i move them back he reverted them, or when i make my own edits he revert them, last time 46 seconds he took, impossible to even made a major edit. Nuevousuario1011 (talk) 19:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Maybe if someone here oould look for what happen since early june, will understand my problem on taking serious the corrections from this user. I don't complained because i believed who at some point the user will acpet somee of his mistakes. And let me alone, but that didn't happen, so i use this to put fowards, the reasons of the multiple edits. and please do not doubt in asking me something. If you need.Nuevousuario1011 (talk) 19:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

my question https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ruedi33a&diff=1032027773&oldid=1032004487

my edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1032130791

the current edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fall_of_Berlin_(1806)&diff=next&oldid=1032140031 Nuevousuario1011 (talk) 19:10, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Another source of dispute with the acusing user.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history&diff=1032000328&oldid=1031995931

notice the comentaries please.Nuevousuario1011 (talk) 19:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Other case of the user reverting my edits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Valdepe%C3%B1as&diff=next&oldid=1030552220 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Valdepe%C3%B1as&diff=next&oldid=1030954407

Current form, with my edits. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Valdepe%C3%B1as&diff=next&oldid=1031083525 Nuevousuario1011 (talk) 19:21, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Besides the fact of not having power to edit because i am geting reverted by the user. Last night i made some edits to put in line cites, and today already reverted. Nuevousuario1011 (talk) 19:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

right now the article of Friedland is exactly as FDW777 wanted it to be. Yet here are the edits. Who i made and he reverted. (the first one ironically was me acknowledging the problem with Chandler source, yet the user FDW777, instead of help, just used it to revert everything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Friedland&diff=1031305363&oldid=1031293374

The sources who i used detailed in the edits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Friedland&diff=next&oldid=1031308267 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Friedland&diff=next&oldid=1031311097 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Friedland&diff=next&oldid=1031312093

And here is FDW777 four days later

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Friedland&diff=next&oldid=1031894574

He claim i do not use the sources, however when the sources back what i edited, he soon try to find a way of discrediting it. The talk pages are also imposible, it is just the user FDW777 saying who everything is wrong, and never a third user. But having a "published book", a "military historian order of battle collection", a "university profesor with prestige, in a public detailed article", who said something different, must be considered. I didn't in my edits, denied who in the past i made a simplisitic asumption when i begun editing. But my last edits are only based on sources. Those edits, never removed a source, it just expanded the range of posible numbers, (even if i would want to make a paragraph detailing the sources) i at least cited them. As you may notice i am not a good english speaker, but i can comprehend things well.Nuevousuario1011 (talk) 19:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Austerlitz and Ulm always said "Desicive" until you changed it, i changed it once, because it was not what it used to be, and there was no explanation. Once he explained it to me i never edited that again. (of course he end in a warring edit with another user, but it was not me)Nuevousuario1011 (talk) 19:59, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Note: Nuevousuario1011 temporarily blocked for edit warring for a week. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 06:29, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Please block this IP address

86.129.94.255 has vandalized Wikipedia for a while now. They have added fake informations to various pages. Ethan2345678 (talk) 02:56, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

They seem to be adding highly pov commentary into articles. I have reverted a few qualifiers added by this user like "nazi recruited" and "pro-nazi" applied to various subjects. This seems to be a nationalist POV pusher. Given my reversion of their content changes I will leave it to another admin to decide if on the block. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 03:09, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I've reviewed it, and it looks worth a block to me, so I'll block the IP for 3 days. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:22, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

At least we got one good edit from them. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 04:28, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Please take action on him

2603:7000:2143:8500:845E:FC6C:A0EA:F171 he always have problem that why reverted my edit, they are asking questions rudely from maximum every pending changes reviewers... please give him strict warning. ItsSkV08 (talk) 05:01, 6 July 2021 (UTC)