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Assistance requested at Fringe Theories Noticeboard

Assistance from one or more Admins and any experienced editors is requested with issues related to this discussion at the Fringe Theories Noticeboard (yes there is such a thing). Short synopsis; we have an editor who has created around 160 articles, and almost all of the ones we have looked at so far have major problems. We over at the tin foil hat noticeboard are sending out an SOS. Any help is greatly appreciated. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:06, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Propose a Topic-Ban on New Articles in Article Space

I propose that this editor be topic-banned from creating new articles in article space (rather than via the AFC review process), since he or she is cluttering article space with a large number of articles that need deleting. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support as nominator. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Holy crap batman--v/r - TP 17:44, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support The combination of refusal to communicate with other editors, fringe topics (need less on here, not more) and the obvious vast amounts of original research. Their intent does not seem to be malicious, but they've chosen the wrong platform. All this belongs in their blog. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 17:49, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support seems pretty obvious that these articles need to go through AfC and that the user isn't willing to do that without some strong handed encouragement. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:56, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment/Question How will this go any better at WP:AFC? Some of the articles appear to me, a non expert in Hindu material, to be potentially direct translations form a worthy book or set of texts. I am wondering whether it might not be 'our' problem that 'we' cannot understand them easily as submissions in clearer English. A comment from an experienced, perhaps immersed, editor would be relevant to this discussion before moving to a draconian apparent remedy. For example, if they be direct translations or quotations from learned texts then we should, surely, treat them in an identical manner to other such texts an the editor should be granted the same courtesies as are extended to editors creating articles in other faiths/disciplines.

This material is arcane, certainly, but is it proper or improper that it is in Wikipedia as articles? If proper then there is no issue save for our understanding the material. If improper then remedies are already available to you, ranging from deletion through to blocking the editor. Fiddle Faddle 18:05, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

"is it proper or improper that it is in Wikipedia as articles?" Yes, in the way it is written. It presents material from Hindu astrology as uncontested fact. We don't do that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

@Timtrent: A host of reasons: 1) AFC space isn't indexed by search engines, 2) AFCs arn't searched by our search bar without going to more advanced options, 3) AFCs can be deleted easier by CSD guidelines, 4) Editors in AFC space review it before the first 2 things limitations get removed, 5) AFC has a giant "THIS IS A DRAFT" banner.--v/r - TP 18:23, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

If it is not proper for the articles to be here, and I suspected it was not for the reasons stated by AndyTheGrump, might the correct route not be a bulk AfD? If it is not proper then AFC is not the place for them either, surely? I come back to my thoughts that one does not need extraordinary measures to deal with this. I have never heard of a topic ban against creation of new mainspace articles and I feel intellectually against it for a great many reasons. Fiddle Faddle 18:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I am cementing and formalising my opinion as a firm Oppose. I have made a asmall edit to my original text, adding the word "clearer" as a modifier for "English"Fiddle Faddle 18:58, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per Timtrent (Fiddlefaddle). Look at this revision of Rasasvada, for example, which Aditya soni had created, and nobody else had edited it except one editor adding a single cleanup tag. It's quite difficult to read and understand, but that's because I'm completely unfamiliar with Indian philosophy; the article appears to have solid sources, and the difficult-to-understand comes partly from the author's way of writing, which makes me suspect that the author isn't fluent in English. As a result, I can form only two conclusions: either it's a decent article on a specialised topic, warranting only some wording cleanup, or its problems are profound enough that only a specialist can understand them. Neither one warrants the ban that's proposed here: if it's a decent article, we shouldn't sanction the guy, and if a specialist is required, the article will sail straight through AFC because people over there aren't specialists in Indian philosophy — AFC is good for filtering problems that anyone can understand, not things like this. Either levy no sanctions at all, or prohibit creation through AFC as well; if the nominator were to remove the AFC creation option, I would be neutral. Nyttend (talk) 18:53, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

In the very first section, he has it entirely based on a primary source, Second Quantization (talk) 15:48, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose as much too broad. If one were to prepend "For the large majority of Hindus" to most of these articles they would be indistinguishable to me from Holy Spirit (Christianity) which begins: "For the large majority of Christians" and then is entirely based on WP:INUNIVERSE sources. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 19:00, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support I do not think the editor in question is being malicious here. But whether intentionally or not, the serious problems with so many of these articles is creating an enormous amount of work for everyone else. The FTN Board is not exactly one of the more well traveled ones and we just don't have enough regulars to deal with well over a hundred suspect articles. (Sometimes we are stretched to handle even normal posts and issues that pop up.) Beyond which the editor's refusal to engage with the community and take some advice on board or show some regard for standards and consensus makes it almost impossible not to see more problems down the road without the new article creation ban. In short, I support the ban because I believe that without it we are going to continue to see the creation of questionable articles on a scale that will further severely tax the limited resources of the community to fix or delete. I am still trying to come up with a sane way of dealing with 160 articles that need to be checked and possibly deleted or mass migrated somewhere. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Changing position to Oppose based on compelling arguments from several editors, as well as closer examination of the editor's record by Salimfadhley, whose judgment I trust, and who concluded the issues are likely not as widespread or serious as initially thought. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:41, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - Mixed view here. This seems like good content and it seems clear that the user knows a lot about Hindu astrology. The real problem here is that the articles themselves are badly written. Readers of WP should not have to be experts in Hindu astrology to get through even a single paragraph, but that's kind of the issue we have here. I think this user's material and knowledge are valuable but the articles he is making should spend some time in userspace being edited a bit. It doesn't have to be perfect by any means, but it has to at least look like it was written in English. Would anyone be available to help mentor or copy-edit this content? I can do some work with the grammar myself but I would like someone (perhaps from Wikiproject Mythology, Wikiproject Hinduism, or Wikiproject Astrology) to help out since they might have familiarity with the information and can offer more direct constructive criticism. Alicb (talk) 21:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support - A ban from creating new articles related to this topic might give this editor an opportunity to improve the existing articles to a point where they meet the WP:NFRINGE standard. I would prefer this than to have to manually review the hundreds of articles on this subject. My greater concern is that this editor feels that this subject (Hindu Astrology) is somehow exempt from the normal rules that govern articles about religious topics in Wikipedia. As a result we have over a hundred pages most of which would never have got past AFC review, this is a prime example [1]. The comment about Einstein in the lede is an automatic 5 on the Crackpot Index. Let's not allow articles about Hinduism to be of lower quality than articles about other religions. If editors were writing such blatant gobbledygook about Christianity or Judaism I think we'd be quick to delete it. I think we need to be consistent in our standards. --Salimfadhley (talk) 22:15, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Why do you think this would get stopped at AFC? It appears to have decent sourcing, and to someone unfamiliar with the subject, the only problem is the comparatively poor English. Most people at AFC are totally ignorant of Hinduism and other Indian philosophy (not complaining; I am too), so if an article's not badly sourced, they have no reason to object to it. Nyttend (talk) 02:17, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• Regular AFC reviewers tend to have sufficient clue to recognize when to call upon subject specialists from relevant WikiProjects for assistance. Such requests for help are routinely done for drafts about highly technical, arcane or obscure subjects that are hard for non-specialists to evaluate. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't take an expert in Hindu Astrology to realise that it wasn't "an evil and ruinous yoga" that made Einstein perform poorly in his studies, Second Quantization (talk) 16:58, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support, definitely. Miniapolis 23:09, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I have been asked to participate in this discussion but I do not know where to begin from.

I started my exercise of creating new pages by first locating the most important and relevant topics that had not been earlier dealt with by any contributor, and having done that one by one I took up those topics, worked on them and created the pages on Indian philosophy and Hindu astrology, the subjects that are known to me. Nowhere have I expressed my own thoughts or done original research; I have based all information included therein as has been available to me online and in the texts that are in my possession which texts also find an online mention. I never thought my well-intentioned efforts would one day cause the kind of problem they have. As an ardent follower of Indian philosophy I was merely obeying the Vedic instruction that if given the opportunity I should unhesitatingly pass on to others, who are willing, all that I have studied and learnt. Knowledge is the light that reveals the true nature of things and removes ignorance; knowledge purifies the mind, that mind which involves all human beings in duality to suffer the pangs of pleasure and pain. It seems I have failed in this task for I have not been able to convey properly.

Friends, I am not a preacher and I am also not a teacher set in the mold of Sankaracharya, Ramanujacharya, Ramana, Varahamihira, Vaidyanatha or Kalidasa. I am an ordinary human being. Philosophy and astrology are difficult subjects to handle. This I know. They are all the more difficult for those who do not know these subjects. Where to begin from I simply do not know. It was long ago said – "they do not know who know, those who do not know, know" - which paradoxical situation will always remain due to the limitations affecting our thoughts and acts.

It has been nice meeting you all.Aditya soni (talk) 02:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to comment here. I think that you are making a lot of useful contributions of information that is badly needed on Wikipedia. There are a few concerns with language that I think we can address but as long as you provide the sources for the information that you provide (either a link to a website or the names/page numbers of print texts) then that should be good enough for other editors to work on. It may be time to call on the users at Wikiproject Hinduism to take a hand in working on these articles. Alicb (talk) 03:33, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Dear Alicb, no information in my 160 odd articles is without a direct reference to the source. I have dutifully provided the relevant links to the websites, given the names of the books, their authors and page numbers. I have neither promoted myself nor anyone else. There is no problem with the language either, because as far as is possible I have used the same words and expression that has been used by the authors of those very books and articles. Why should there be a problem in accessing those sources, I fail to understand. Moreover, there is already talk of difficulty in handling 100 odd intended AFDs pertaining to the pages I have created, doubt has also been raised about the ability of the editors who had reviewed those pages, and to top it all, my efforts have been termed as utter non-sense and a hoax and therefore already stand summarily dismissed. Then, I do not understand why so much time and effort is now being wasted just to prove my efforts are a bunch of trash. Even if all 160 pages are deleted I stand to lose nothing at all since I have already gained a great deal by way of revision of my knowledge while writing these pages, which revision has served as my Upasana (contemplation). And I am sure some readers must have also gained and improved their knowledge. Through your agency I request for the charade that is being presently played out to end, it is sickening to say the least. Already some very harsh and bad words have been used belittling my efforts, the kind of words I never use; that is enough, there should not be any more of it. There should not be any further delay in deleting my 160 odd articles. I hope you will speak on my behalf and have all 160 pages created by me deleted soon. After the requested deletion is done I shall quit Wikipedia and enjoy my liberation. Nice knowing you.Aditya soni (talk) 05:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• • the Vedic instruction that if given the opportunity I should unhesitatingly pass on to others, who are willing, all that I have studied and learnt. There is a beautiful passage in the Taittiriya Upanishad (in the ninth Anuvaka) dealing with this. Learn and pass on the knowledge. That is what Wikipedia is about. That is what humanity is all about. But we cannot present the Vedas here without presenting them in the correct (for Wikipedia) form. In the Western phrase, we do not cast pearls before swine, for they will not, cannot understand. More work is needed to aid understanding. For those that are willing. --Pete (talk) 04:34, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose for now per Fiddle Faddle/Tim.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:08, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Fiddle Faddle/Tim. As a side note, talking about tin foil hats in this context should be blockable. --John (talk) 06:13, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see any substantial problem here. It looks like Aditya soni is doing a pretty good job with the sources though a little more explanatory detail in some of the articles would be helpful. --I am One of Many (talk) 06:22, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

[2]: They are claiming in wikipedias tone that Einstein did poorly because he had a bad horoscope, and claims that anyone with this horoscope has "has neither knowledge nor wealth, is penurious". Please explain how this is a "pretty good job", Second Quantization (talk) 15:37, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

super strong support; unless those "opposing" actually pull their fingers out and hold this editor's hand through the process. However, I feel Wikipedia requires WP:COMPETENCE, and it requires its competent editors to be editing competently rather than holding the hands of someone who cannot write a coherent sentence in the forlorn hope that something might be salvageable from the inevitable mess. Barney the barney barney (talk) 13:23, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Barney, the editor seems to me to have written some very coherent sentences, right here, in this thread. Better, grammatically, than some of the comments from native English speakers on this page, and certainly better than I could do in a language that may not be native to me. Sure, there are problems with English in some of the articles - it's complex content, with difficult translation issues, I'm sure, and it seems it may need someone to help him work through those issues (if he's still willing). It's probably important that he stops adding new articles until that can be worked through, to keep things manageable. Seems we may need someone who is familiar with the subject matter, and that's obviously not you or me. Maybe nobody will come forward to do that. If they do, I suggest it's not up to you or me to tell them how they should volunteer their time. Speaking of which - I thank Aditya soni for the substantial time he has so far donated in an attempt to create and share this content, and I hope we can help clear up any issues. Begoon ^talk 15:38, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose any sort of "ban" at this stage, for clarity, per my comments above, in case anyone is "!counting". (Sad reflection on us, in my very humble opinion, that we leap straight into a "ban" vote after one line of non discussion, then try to hold the discussion we should have already had within the !vote. I hope I'm never subjected to that, and I suspect we all hope that for ourselves.) Begoon ^talk 16:21, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment, Just to clarify - nobody is proposing a 'permaban'. Nobody is proposing to wholesale delete 160 articles which are obviously the result of hard work and research. Some of us are asking this editor to cool it, and respect the norms of notability and sourcing on Wikipedia. I note that at least four of Aditya soni's recently created articles on Hindu Astrology are all subject to AFCs for broadly the same set of reasons: Incomprehensible articles on ultra-niche that are loaded with WP:OR and rely on unreliable occult/esoteric sources. This editor has not yet pledged to do anything differently even in light of the considerable attention criticism in AFD discussions. --Salimfadhley (talk) 14:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Observation: Today I was glad to note that an esteemed editor had approached one page i.e.Rasasvada, with the intention of improving it. But just see what he has done. He has deleted the entire section – "Obstacles to Samadhi and their removal", in which part I have cited Sanskrit passages from Vedantasara that provide definition of the term – "Rasasvada" – in the context of Advaita Vedanta and are the basic reason as to why I decided to create this page. The editor in good faith has extracted the very heart from the body of this essay and killed it. The reason he gives is that the passage is original research based on ancient source. Three drawbacks are evident – 1) the editor does not know Sanskrit language, 2) he does not know who Sadananda was, and 3) he has never read the work of Sadananda titled Vedantasara belonging to mid-15th century, which systemizes Sankara’s Advaita philosophy. Since then, this work has been translated and commented upon by many learned savants. I chose to cite from the translation and commentary by Swami Nikhilananda which was first published in 1931 and which translation and commentary is available online, the reprint I possess is of a recent date. I have conducted no original research.Aditya soni (talk) 15:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

UserAditya soni, I believe that you are acting in good faith, hence any bans or threats of bans may be unwarranted in your case. I have reviewed your older articles and found some of your work on Hinduism and Buddhism in general to be of good quality and potentially useful. I remain concerned about recently created articles such as Trikasthanas (astrology) which as I have previously stated are incomprehensible and fail to articulate any kind of notability according to Wikipedia's standards. None of the sources I was able to verify appear to be particularly important or reliable. None of the sources I could verify seem to deal with the subject matter in any significant depth. The reason I am pointing this out is not to criticize your scholarship, but to encourage you to apply your considerable intellect to an appreciation of Wikipedia's rules. --Salimfadhley (talk) 15:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• support I have mixed feelings about this, but I think in the end something has to be done about in the form of review and guidance. To some degree my issues with the Hindu terminology articles can be ascribed to my lack of familiarity with the material, but I also get the impression that a lot of what I'm reading is slight paraphrasing of near-to-primary source material. It's rather as if our articles on Judaica were constructed from reworded passages of the gemara. It's not an appropriate approach to a general interest encyclopedia. The astrology articles are worse, bordering on incoherency. I've said over and over again that we need people who know the material to write these Indian articles, but the articles need to be actually readable too. Mangoe (talk) 17:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support - I was still weighing this one up and believed the editor in question could turn over a new leaf until this comment which is just completely at odds with how WP works and suggest the editor just doesn't get it. An editor has no place here if they refuse to participate in discussion, especially about their own problematic editing. St★lwart¹¹¹ 00:21, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Friends, I have already stated that I chose Wikipedia to share, with all those who are willing to know, the knowledge that I had fortunately gained through the intensive study of numerous scriptures and texts, guided by a Guru. For more than two long years I waited and kept on waiting for some good soul to turn up so as to help me improve and expand the contents I had posted. No one turned up. You will agree that most editors who are so very vocal in professing extension of aid, guidance etc., when they do appear on the scene come out with all their guns blazing, firing at will all ammunition that are in their possession ranging from code, technicality, procedure and so forth, in such a discouraging and insulting manner that persons like me who mean no offence are made to feel - "Why have I entered the dangerously dark abyss called Wikipedia, only to be unceremoniously driven out?" At least one really concerned editor ought to have long ago, or even recently, in a polite and purposeful manner pointed out my mistakes and volunteered to help and guide me; then he and I could have happily re-worked and re-written the 160 odd articles bringing them up to the set norms and standards. I would have been only too pleased to do so. But, now too much water has flowed down underneath the bridge, the bridge has collapsed, I have exhausted my patience, there is a very bitter taste in my mouth which I am unable to wash out, and I find my heart bleeding and genuinely crying out goading me to quit Wikipedia the soonest. I am being asked to turn a new leaf; I have failed to understand what is meant by this phrase. I have not rebelled. But, enough is enough. Please, for God’s sake, stop the farce which is being played out at my expense. I was here not to win praise and stars, and later become an Administrator, but all the same I have a feeling someone is being a sadist. I thank you all for allowing me to share my feelings. Be good and help the needy. Allow me to take leave. I had never had an opportunity to meet so many on a single stage; it has been a great learning experience. I have vowed not to create any new page ever.Aditya soni (talk) 03:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support purely for lack of a better alternative. If somebody were to offer to mentor this user, or some such, I would be far better satisfied than with a tban. Essentially, to me the user is eminently competent, but unable to distinguish between what they know and what the general reader can be expected to know; their articles are written for others like themselves. This is also borne out by the lack of wikilinks in their articles. This also raises an unusual sort of NPOV issue; though the articles may be written neutrally, their lack of context, or WP:INUNIVERSE if you will, make them harmful, because the vast majority of readers are not familiar enough with these topics to judge for themselves. To me their English is a trivial concern, and not a factor in voting "support;" there are armies of editors out there with far poorer English. Aditya soni, whichever way this turns out, I suggest you do not take this personally; take this as a break in which you can familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policies. A Block is not infinite; it can be appealed, and if you can show that you've addressed these issues it will likely be overturned. Regards. Vanamonde93 (talk) 08:50, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose It is clear to me that Aditya soni is highly knowledgeable on the topic, but needs to familiarize himself with WP guidelines. A break from creation and a focus on article improvement would be great. However, by the bitter tone of his reply, I am concerned that a tban like this might make him leave WP altogether, which would be pretty bad, as we would be losing an editor with great knowledge on a niche topic. However, I do not see any good alternative. Changed my mind based on discussion at the fringe noticeboard. Kingsindian (talk) 09:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Wikipedia does not come out of this with glory. As Wikipedians we have taken a huge potential step against an inexperienced editor and are causing them grief, a lot of grief.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the way they have approached the creation of articles, they are by no means a vandal, nor disruptive. They simply failed to engage with us in the way we expect usually. We must not have tried hard enough.

Now, we are voting on whether they should be allowed to continue. That appalls me.

Patently, they have a great deal to offer. And, equally patently, we are driving them away.

This started at a fringe noticeboard, which is odd, because Hindu Astrology does not seem to me to be a fringe theory. It seems pretty mainstream to me. The folk there needed the help of an admin, though I am wholly unsure why that was. This type of issue can almost always be handled by experienced editors without invoking the bucket and mop, but here we are, at the big ban hammer board, voting on how much hammer to use.

I am ashamed of our behaviour towards Aditya soni, and feel he deserves an apology, one I am giving him on my own behalf for any hurt I may have inflicted on him myself.

We need to guide him, yes. He needs to be content to accept guidance, yes. Requesting him to use WP:AFC for his next couple of drafts may well be a good idea. Mandating him to do so is not. This whole process is very WP:BITE, and we need to correct this now. Fiddle Faddle 10:10, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

"we have taken a huge potential step against an inexperienced editor", he has been editing consistently for 2 years and has made nearly 1,700 article edits in that time. That's not new or inexperienced. "they are by no means a vandal, nor disruptive" By doing what they did, they have created a large amount of work for others to fix it by trimming down fringe claims and removing non-notable articles. I brought up the issue of fringe claims with them over a year ago [3], and they didn't even respond to me. Further, they acknowledge that their articles are only of interest to fellow astrologers [4][5], that's pretty much categorically in the face of WP:FRIND. If only astrologers are interested, then there are no independent sources and it's not notable (WP:NFRINGE). You also said, "This started at a fringe noticeboard, which is odd, because Hindu Astrology does not seem to me to be a fringe theory" I take it then you don't understand what a fringe theory is in wikipedia. A fringe theory is something which conflicts with an accepted domain of knowledge but which has no following amongst experts. For astrology that is science. Hindu astrology is fringe for the same reason that creation science is fringe (and creationism is used as an example in WP:FRINGE). Although they have many adherents, in terms of the relevant discipline (science) they have almost no following. "It seems pretty mainstream to me." No doubt there are some indian scientists who believe it (since it is wound up with religious beliefs in India), but science doesn't obey borders. The mainstream in science doesn't accept astrology, and the subset of that in India doesn't either from what I have read of it. Second Quantization (talk)

• Oppose. [Non-administrator opinion.] I have not examined every article created by Aditya soni but I have extreme difficulty making sense of many of those I did read. I think it is fair to assume from the responses of others that I am not the only one. I reject the assertion that this is simply due to ethnocentrism, or as another editor has suggested elsewhere, a discussion of “my religious nuttery is better than thy religious nuttery”. While I have little experiencing studying the major writings of any religion, including Christianity, I am still able to comprehend articles that touch on obscure topics of a wide variety of religions with much greater ease that this group of articles. The fact that this issue was raised in WP:FTN is irrelevant, as is the issue of whether Hindu astrology is a fringe theory or not. I would have the same opinion if this was brought up in WP:FOOTY. With that said, I oppose a topic ban on Aditya soni. It is apparent from his/her edit history that this general topic is his/her only area of interest within Wikipedia, and a topic ban would ensure that we would loose him/her as an editor. As problematic as I find these articles and as much as I would like to see him/her attempt to work with others, I do not see any history of objectionable behavior (e.g. edit warring to prevent others from trying to fix the articles) that would warrant that action. Location (talk) 17:03, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

One way in which the issue of whether Hindu Astrology is a fringe theory is very much relevant is with regard to the four articles currently at AfD where editors have raised WP:NFRINGE as a policy reason to delete them, among other reasons: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Equal house system (Hindu astrology), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unmaad yoga (astrology), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reka yoga (astrology) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Trikasthanas (astrology). 24.151.10.165 (talk) 17:54, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The issue here appears to be whether or not Aditya soni can put together articles - regardless of the topic - that are reliably sourced and somewhat easily comprehended. Location (talk) 18:54, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Can we concentrate on one article? Trikasthanas (astrology), mentioned above, doesn't seem at all to match what a Wikipedia article should be. It looks more like something I'd find in a book that takes astrology seriously, or on an astrology website. Is this what we want? Dougweller (talk) 19:51, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

@Dougweller: I am not sure what you mean by that. You mean the decision should be based primarily on one article? If so, I disagree. If not, as Salimfadhley, who has spent much more time than me on this says, there are many contributions, especially older ones, which are decent, and should be considered as well. Kingsindian (talk) 20:05, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: That's good to hear. I'm not saying base it all on one article, I am asking if we want this one and if it is in any way typical. What do you think of it? Dougweller (talk) 20:09, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

@Dougweller: Too much detail, very dense, impenetrable to people not familiar with the subject. Probably should be deleted, but I am very inexperienced in such matters. Definitely large sections should be removed. Kingsindian (talk) 21:09, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from creating articles directly in article space. This seems to me very much the kind of thing the Articles for creation review process was created for. If the user creates articles via that process only, it'll be an advantage both for Wikipedia and for themselves. However, in view of the user's goodbye post above, I suppose the issue may be moot. But if they should change their mind about leaving, I do believe we need to insist they use the AFC process. Bishonen | talk 20:42, 20 August 2014 (UTC).

No, we don't need to insist on anything here. This does not even begin to rise to the level you are suggesting. I understand this is your opinion, and I will respect that, but Fiddle Faddle has this correct. We are not really trying very hard and I think a good deal of this is because some editors just don't understand the subjects and don't feel compelled to collaborate. I think that we need more patience with editors. I see no reason for admin intervention or community sanctions here.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:57, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I previously voted support and now continue to support this. Aditya soni is clearly an expert in certain aspects of Hindu culture but feels that this expertise provides an entitlement to disregard some of the fundamental rules of Wikipedia. This editor resigned in protest not just because of this discussion but because of the numerous AFDs and the growing consensus that his recent Astrology articles were not up to the standards of wikipedia 1, 2, 3. Aditya soni has never conceded that any of the criticisms of these articles were valid and his refused to make use of AFC (and other processes designed to assist new editors). Now faced with a possibility of mild and temporary editorial review Aditya Soni has resigned in disgust. In the immortal words of Cartman: "Screw You, I'm Going Home!". --Salimfadhley (talk) 23:28, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Thank you for those words, which serve to escalate an unpleasant situation. As experienced editors our role is not only to create and edit articles but to provide a place where the less experienced can grow and become more valuable. I am thanking you for the Cartman quote, in case you are in any doubt.

People have driven away an editor whose understanding of the somewhat arcane topic appears to be great, but who is not quite working in a collegiate manner. I have read a number of the articles. They are difficult to understand. So is particle physics. They are not well referenced. Often, nor is particle physics, in that each has references from within the universe in which the topic exists. So what? We, the self styled great and good, are meant to be capable of editing the arcane and impenetrable to make it available to the ordinary reader. What we have said and are continuing to say to this editor is "Betake yourself and your topic that is difficult to understand, and go!" We disguise that as some sort of topic ban. Go us!

The wisdom of crowds often creates something far more unpleasant, and I believe we have seen it here. We have a posse and lunch law here. Yes, 'lunch', because we will have this editor for lunch.

The adult approach is to put this to bed as an understood but unwise proposal which will not be implemented, and to attempt to salvage something from the mess - we need to try to salvage this editor's feelings. I'm sorry that I asked them to come here and comment. As you see on their talk page they feel savaged the more by having done so.

For clarity, I have never met them before this, and never read their work. I joined this discussion because I felt then and feel now that this is a grave injustice being perpetrated on an ordinary person, someone like you and like me. I remain ashamed of us for doing this.

Are we not meant to guide and encourage the less collegiate editor, the less experienced editor? Or do we throw them under the bus when we don;t quite 'get' what they are trying to do? Fiddle Faddle 06:56, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support I disagree strongly with Timtrent that we are seeing articles created that are simply written by someone who understands the subject but writes articles that are difficult to understand and need better referencing. They are in fact articles which have Wikipedia stating in its own voice that astrology is an objective fact. The author even says as much at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reka yoga (astrology) - " But all the same Reka yoga is a bad planetary combination; it has a restraining and at times destructive effect." Now he has the right to believe this all to be true, but not to create articles in which Wikipedia itself is asserting these things to be true. Dougweller (talk) 07:42, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Wikipedia presents many things as facts. A good number are not facts at all, but are hypotheses, theories, etc. If something is presented as a fact that is genuinely not a fact there is a simple and expedient mechanism for making it clear that it is not a fact. We use the Edit button and make judicious edits. We do not then seek to prevent an editor from ever creating articles in main namespace again by a massive ban hammer style proposal at ANI. If we did that we would have very few editors left and the WP:AFC backlog would go up tenfold at a stroke. Not all articles are excellent. That is why we edit as a community. We don't chuck them away unless and until they are shown to be hopeless cases. We certainly do not throw their creator under a bus.

If we are very lucky we may be able to salvage the editor as a contributor for years to come, but I do not blame him at all for being extremely upset with the way he is being treated. Fiddle Faddle 12:35, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

"A good number are not facts at all, but are hypotheses, theories, etc." Presenting hypotheses as fact? Name one and I'll show you an article which needs to be edited. Also, I suggest you read Evolution as fact and theory before implying the word theory mean "not facts at all". "If something is presented as a fact that is genuinely not a fact there is a simple and expedient mechanism for making it clear that it is not a fact. ... We do not then seek to prevent an editor from ever creating articles in main namespace again by a massive ban hammer style proposal at ANI" Actually, this happens all the time, because it is a massive drain on everything to chase civil POV pushers around fixing their edits (and that's even if they don't just edit war back). Second Quantization (talk) 16:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - this guy clearly knows his stuff. He needs some help fitting it into our way of doing things, but this is exactly the sort of material we could do with more of. I'm disgusted at the behaviour of those who want it gone because they don't understand, it's foreign, it's arcane or whatever. I know a little about this sort of stuff, and while it's very hard to get into, especially on a sleepy afternoon after lunch when I listened to a chap explain this area for a week, it's valid within the limits of the subject. We shouldn't be presenting it as fact, but we shouldn't be deleting this very real scholarship. --Pete (talk) 04:17, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Pete,I wish you had made your appearance earlier. I have stepped in mainly because of you. Whatever be the opinion of the people in the Western world about astrology as a pseudo-science or a hoax or a non-sense, but you know that Astrology has been a part of Hindu life and culture for the past 4000 years or so, and it still continues to play an important role in our life. Even those Indian skeptics who vehemently speak and write against astrology, in fact, secretly approach priest-astrologers in the time of need. I can vouch for this fact because I am in this field though not as a professional. After the introduction of British method of education by Macaulay, who divided the world into the educated and the barbarians, the longstanding Indian method of thinking changed; everything ancient was questioned and even rejected, which situation worsened because of the influence of Karl Marx. Hindu astrology also took a severe hit and the number of those rejecting it as a science grew larger and larger, and also because of the support extended by the then political establishment. The vexing question, whether astrology is a science or not, was finally settled by the Supreme Court of India which court on 05/05/2004 ruled that astrology is a science, and even directed the Indian Universities to teach this subject. This judgement was delivered in the Case No. Appeal (civil) 5886 of 2002 P.M.Bhargava & Others. Vs. University Grants Commission and Another. You can access the court order at Govt. of India website - http://judis.nic.in/supremecourt/qrydisp.asp?tfnm=26188 I am sure you are aware of this court ruling which is now the law of the land. Please enlighten all participants especially those who are against Hindu astrology and eager to bury my four articles already listed as AFDs. You have read the Indian Sanskrit texts. Our ancient thinkers did not use many words, they were very brief while defining and explaining the various astrological and philosophical principles. The later translators and commentators were in no position to change that method of expression lest the true meaning became lost. Hence, the language appears arcane and difficult to understand. I have not digressed from the available and referred to texts. This is it. My objecting friends should have directly asked me to re-write and if possible simplify what I had presented all that which is now under their scrutiny. They did not and you know the rest. They have driven me out.Aditya soni (talk) 11:50, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

I, for one, am glad to see that you have chosen to reengage. I found the reasoning of the Madras High Court (quoted approvingly in the decision linked) particularly apt for an encyclopedia: it had "held that the very purpose of imparting education is to gain knowledge and therefore there should be every scope for making a study on very many subjects in order to enrich ones craving for knowledge. Any such attempt from any quarters in furtherance of that pursuit should not be stultified. The learned Judge further held that it was for the pupil concerned to select any particular field or subject in furtherance of his future career, and merely because the subject has got its basis or origin traceable to some cult, it cannot be held that the same would only result in propagation of a particular religion." I, for one, believe that your articles can be edited so as present knowledge more neutrally and not necessarily only result in propagation of a particular religion. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 14:26, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't say that I have read the ancient Sanskrit texts. I have a shallow understanding of the arrangement of the Vedas, the Upanishads and so on. It is a rich and deep subject! I can barely read Sanskrit, and puzzling out meaning with the help of Monier-Williams is a slow task. Though very enjoyable. Max Muller is another sage I revere, and when I next visit Oxford I am charged with visiting him at Holywell.

Despite what the court in Madras says, we cannot present astrology here as fact or science. We can certainly describe it for those who do, giving the sources and rewriting to make it less impenetrable, in line with Wikipedia's policies. We already present many arcane fields. Particle physics is mentioned above, but we also cover Harry Potter and Karl Marx in great detail. There is certainly room for the Vedas here, and your contributions are welcome, at least from those who have an inkling of what you're talking about. For many others, it comes across as nonsense, and I understand their confusion, though cannot support their behaviour towards a scholar. Obviously the wisdom of Advaita is yet to blossom in their hearts.

It is obvious that you are a scholar, and one who knows his texts. I can help edit your work here in line with policy, if you'll accept my feeble understanding of your field. Quite likely there are others here with better knowledge of both Sanskrit and Vedic tradition who can join in. Some of the advice given above is very good, such as the suggestion that you cease creating new articles until we have dealt with those already here by rewording them in line with Wikipedia policy. --Pete (talk) 19:18, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposal is too broad. AlanS (talk) 14:14, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support. I've actually read some (non-Wiki) articles on Vedic (Hindu) astrology, and the long-winded and often dire articles that this user is writing sound like they come from the Middle Ages. I believe they are not only inappropriate, too long, and a detriment to Wikipedia, I believe they are actually misleading in terms of the belief system they purport to represent. Softlavender (talk) 05:41, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

• What an excellent idea. Let us ban every editor whose writing quality is poor, or whose style we do not agree with, from creating new articles. Far better to ban them than to educate them, because it saves so much trouble. And, even better than that, it isn't WP:BITE at all, if we say it isn't. Alternatively we can edit the articles we think are substandard. I thought that was what Wikipedia was about. Fiddle Faddle 13:41, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I never said that the writing quality is poor or that I disagreed with the style. I said the articles are misleading. Do we want an encyclopedia to be misleading? If you think so, fine, but I disagree; I think an encyclopedia should be accurate and up-to-date. Softlavender (talk) 14:53, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Yesterday, I asked User:Aditya soni, if willing, to make some changes to one or two articles so that Hindu beliefs were represented as beliefs rather than as universal truths. [6]. Today, I note that User:Aditya soni has done just that. [7] and [8]. Even if one is not entirely satisfied with the results, I hope we can all agree that this is strong evidence of a willingness to work collaboratively. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 13:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support I was invited to ANI for a third opinion. The concepts the user writes on are "real" concepts (not WP:FRINGE) in Hindu astrology. That said; many of them do not warrant an independent article, but however need to mentioned in the master article. Trikasthanas (astrology) IMO should be merged with Bhāva and retained as a para or 2. The articles created by the user are primarily based on WP:PRIMARY sources, thus may be coloured by the author's perception (Read WP:OR). Articles like Devatas (Vedanta) seem to be WP:POVFORKs of the master article (in this case, Rigvedic deities or Deva (Hinduism)).Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:24, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment Dear Mr. Redtigerxyz ^Talk ,I had seen the page Deva (Hinduism), but I did not know where to incorporate my written matter posted at Devatas (Vedanta), therefore, I created a new page owing to inexperience. But,I have not done any original research nor relied on primary sources -

Ref 1 Raj Pruthi’s book – Vedic Civilization is not a primary source; it is a secondary source on the topic. The entire book is available on line.

Ref 2 The book - Sree Varaha mihira’s Bhirat Jataka is not a primary source; it is translation cum commentary by B.Suryanarain Rao, and a secondary source. The entire book is available on line.

Ref 3, 5,6 Swami Gambhirananda’s book on Brahma Sutra Bhasya of Sankaracarya is a tertiary source; this is Swami Gambhirananda’s translation and commentary on the Sanskrit translation of Brahma Sutras by Adi Shankara. The entire book can be accessed at http://michaelsudduth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Srimad-Bhagavad-Gita-Shankara-Bhashya-English.pdf

Ref 7 The book – New Perspectives on Advaita Vedanta is not a primary source; it is a secondary/tertiary source. The entire book is available on line.

Ref 8 The book – A Constructive Survey of Upanishadic Philosophy, as the title suggests is a masterly survey of the Upanishads conducted by Ramachandra Dattatrya Ranade.

Ref 9 The book- Patanjali Yoga Sutras contains the original Sanskrit text along with English translation by Swami Prabhavananda. It is a secondary source. The entire book can be accessed at http://www.estudantedavedanta.net/yoga-aphorisms-of-patanjali.pdf

Ref 10 The book – Eight Upanishads Vol.1 contains original text of Isa, Kena, Katha and Taittiriya Upanishads along with English translation and commentary by Swami Gambhirananda.

Ref 11 The book – Studies in Upanishads as the name itself suggests is a tertiary source.

By the way I have already sought deletion of all 160 odd pages created by me. Therefore, I request you to please quietly delete all pages without inviting or involving others, then, there will not be any kind of aspersions cast on my understanding of the subject, my ability, my sincerity and my integrity. And, by deleting all articles your precious time and effort would also be saved. I hope you will not disappoint me. I seek forgiveness from all you for having created so many thoughtless pages and thus carelessly bothered you all. I have deleted my user page but I do not know how to quit Wikipedia entirely (including disabling of my password i.e. access to any page), please help me. Also, please close this discussion too, which has needlessly gone on and on. I am glad you have also supported a ban on me. You may collectively ban me for ever, I won't be bothering you in future, never in any case. Thanks.Aditya soni (talk) 10:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support Continual fringe claims in all created articles (all with terrible sourcing too),[9]: "Generally, a person born with Reka yoga has neither knowledge nor wealth, is penurious"." Albert Einstein was born with a Rekā yoga which made him perform poorly in his studies during the course of the dashas (planetary periods) the planets giving rise to the said yoga." That's a claim in the wikipedia voice that planet positions made Einstein do badly in school.

[10]: "King George III born on 4th June 1738 with Unmaad yoga inasmuch as in his case Mars occupying the 10th house aspected the lagna and the Moon combining with Saturn casted its inimical aspect on Mars; he suffered from mental illness." Of course this sentence doesn't seem to make much sense since the second part seems unrelated to the first, but I think it's obvious what is being implied here.

[11]: " These are the three evil houses of suffering whose lords and occupation invariably bring difficulties, suffering, loss, anxieties, worries, obstacles, disease, confinement, incarceration, impediments, enemies, lawsuits, accidents, injuries, surgeries, and death like experiences in the lives of all human beings." "From the 6th house are divined diseases, disappointments, ..." "The 12th house indicates disturbance to sleep, mental worry, ... ", "The lord of the 6th house should not be stronger than the lord of the lagna if so then one cannot overpower opponents and foes, and is vanquished illness and ill-health will overpower the body. " This is the Viparita Raja yoga that confers learning, longevity, fame and prosperity, illustrious friends, success in all ventures and victory over foes."

People seem resistant to the idea that poor writers shouldn't write 160 articles laden with a fringe POV, but I think it makes sense. Second Quantization (talk) 15:37, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

And I don't think I'm being unreasonable here, I did even ask him to be wary of our polices over a year ago: User_talk:Aditya_soni#Fringe_guidelines (old nick), Second Quantization (talk) 16:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support, reluctantly. I have hesitated over this due to the ideas already eloquently expressed by Timtrent/FiddleFaddle. However, can we really afford to have hundreds of articles which are poorly written, dense, and in universe, presenting astrology as fact? Who will go and clean them up? Who will monitor and fix every new page?

I wouldn't support this if the articles were just badly written, but writing astrology as factual in Wikipedia's own voice is a massive POV and FRINGE problem and I just can't support its continuation. BethNaught (talk) 15:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support I had intended skipping this dispute, but Reka yoga (astrology) is an abuse of Wikipedia. Johnuniq (talk) 23:35, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Mahadeva states that the person born with Reka yoga is devoid of education and wealth and has bad nails - Oh come now! When feeling threatened, Squirtle withdraw their limbs into their brown-orange shells and spray water from their mouth with great force. Where's the difference? We list and describe all sorts of stuff that is patent nonsense, so long as there is a significant cultural following. Pokemon, astrology, synchronised swimming. We are an encyclopaedia, not some slitty-eyed moral judge. --Pete (talk) 21:02, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: Friends, I need not disturb you but I cannot avoid narrating to you my day's experience. Only today I noticed the reasons given by the editor who has nominated page titled – Char Dham (Vedic) for deletion. His intention suits me fine, but he has very sadly termed this topic as original research and a hoax because he could not find a reliable source that indicates Char Dham exists in Vedic literature. That hurt me. He seems to have not appreciated the contents of section – Pratardana’s description of the four Dhams in which section two significant Mantras from the Rig Veda i.e. IX.96.18 and IX.96.19 referred to by two authors, have been cited along with the explanations by those authors. Evidently this nominator does not know Sanskrit and Hindi but even then I have led him to Rig Veda Vol. 5 pages 335,336 published online by Aryasamaj Jamnagar which is actually Swami Dayananda Saraswati’s translation of the Rig Veda and his commentary on that text. The word Dham (धाम) in Vedic philosophy refers to plane of existence. In order to assist him so that he properly understands this topic I have specifically brought to his notice the words – "तृतीयं धाम" at the start of the second line of mantra IX.96.18 on page 335 which is explained by Dayananda Saraswati on page 336 as – (तृतीयं, धाम) (pronounced - triteeyam dhaam; triteeyam means 'three') (three dhams) are देवयान (Devayana or Devaloka) और (and) पितृयान (Pitriyana) इन दोनों से पृथक् (beyond these two) is the तीसरा (third) जो (which) मुक्तिधाम (Muktidham) है (is); and to the two words – "तुरीयं धाम" (pronounced - tureeyam dhaam; tureeyam or Turiya means 'the fourth') appearing in the next mantra on the same page. Dayananda Saraswati explains - (तुरीयम्) चौथा (fourth) (धाम) (dham) परमपद (the highest state) परमात्मा (Paramatman) है (is). The link to this text is http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org/rugveda_v5/rugveda.htm . These two mantras of the Rig Veda directly speak about the Char (four) Dhams (planes of existence), and these are the mantras I have cited. I have failed to understand as to how the nominator missed noticing these mantras. I am not objecting to the proposed deletion of this page. Thanks.Aditya soni (talk) 13:27, 26 August 2014 (UTC)Aditya soni (talk) 13:37, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not the nom, but you are writing articles on the basis of original research. You are working off the primary texts, and primary religious sources (which are themselves quite old). See WP:NOR and WP:SECONDARY. Wikipedia does not accept original research. Engaging in an original or interesting synthesis isn't a bad thing, it's just something that is forbidden in wikipedia, Second Quantization (talk) 15:08, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure that we're getting original research? The texts are old, but there are extensive commentaries. I'm getting the feeling that all of the material is well-sourced. The problem could be that the average contributor to ANI is sadly deficient in Sanskrit, let alone Vedic lore. --Pete (talk) 17:29, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I think Pete has the right of it. Old commentary is not original research. Referring to Dayananda Saraswati's interpretations of Rigveda is no more original research than referring to Augustine of Hippo's and Thomas Aquinas's interpretations of scripture in Just war theory. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 17:54, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. The question is how we refer to it. So long as we are clear on that, there is no problem describing any belief system. Hell, if we could have a reliable source for what bunny rabbits actually believe, that would be awesome, and a great addition to our pool of knowledge. In this case we think the articles may be over detailed, badly worded, implying fact instead of description of a belief, and maybe misleading, because of that. The question is what we do about that. We can fix them, discard them because they are too misleading, too voluminous and too hard to fix, engage productively with the author, berate the author (and accept the risk of losing them, or even consider that a positive), or any number of things inbetween. Nobody ever said this encyclopedia thing would be easy. We edit, we discuss. Sometimes we reject. Sometimes we can adapt and include. As long as we consider these things properly, we are doing our "job". Begoon ^talk 18:22, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Throw a mentor at the problem. Mentor needs to have a lot of good faith and patience. This author has created articles like A_Constructive_Survey_of_Upanishadic_Philosophy. Discouraging him may be a loss for WP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayakumar RG (talk • contribs)

Are you nominating yourself for mentor? Second Quantization (talk) 20:45, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I would if I weren't inexperienced myself. Jayakumar RG (talk) 06:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

• Weak Support ban from creating new articles in article space on a temporary basis. Redtigerz has said above that Hindu astrology is significantly notable and from what I've seen in reference works I have to agree that there could reasonably be a fairly wide selection of articles on the topic. There do seem to be some real questions regarding the editor's capacity to adhere to NPOV in content right now but a good mentor might be able to help there. I can try in the near future to help a little in that regard and would be willing to be a secondary advisor once I become a bit better informed on the topic in a few weeks but think that for the moment anyway it would be in his and our best interests to ensure his created articles are a bit better from the word go. John Carter (talk) 16:24, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment The material about the India Supreme Court ruling on whether the Vedas are a science is exactly the sort of thing that should go into the encyclopedia, if it can be sourced. But over a hundred articles? Can AFC handle that much? Maybe some of them could be moved to user space to work on them, until they can be approved. At least they wouldn't be lost. I know the milhist group sometimes does this. —Neotarf (talk) 21:44, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: Supreme Court’s ruling is on Hindu astrology as a science.

Sepharial in his book - The Science of Foreknowledge (pages 58 – 70)(url= [12] ) concludes that the Hindus did not get their astrology from the Chaldeans or the Egyptians; the astrological methods of the Hindus are essentially and fundamentally different from the Chaldeans and the Egyptians, the zodiac is not related to the equinox, the Hindus are aware of the precession of the equinox, and the calculation of periods is based on 27 nakshatras reckoned from the place of the Moon at birth; the Chaldean directions based on diurnal aspects of the planets after birth have no place in Hindu astrology and the Hindus do not use the time-measures such as "one day for a year" method of directing used by the Chaldeans and the Babylonians. Hindu astrology like the Hindu astronomy evolved originally, the trine is the basis of Hindu astrology. Chaldean astrology did not have its birth in India, but astrology existed in India more than 2000 years before the Chaldeans.

We, in india, believe that Jyotisha or Astrology is as old as the Vedas which embody eternal knowledge. Jyotisha forms the most important of the six Vedangas or the body-organs of the Vedas; it is the scientific study and application of the language of the heavenly bodies determined on the basis of astronomy and mathematics. It is a cosmic science not bound by limitations of a laboratory. Astrology did not come to India after the advent of Alexander, references to astrology are found in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. All ancient texts of Hindu astrology are in Sanskrit covering a very wide scope and variety of principles, permutations and combinations of planetary positions; Hindu astrology is a very complex multi-dimensional system and therefore, any criticism of this system should be made by one who has studied this system.

Even so when will this inquisition stop? Do I find it interesting? No. Do I find it entertaining? No. On the contrary it recalls to my mind an Urdu sh’er from Mirza Ghalib’s ghazal which reads:

آگے آتی تھی حالِ دل پہ ہنسی : اب کسی بات پر نہیں آتی :

which means – "Previously I could laugh at my heart’s plight, but now I do not laugh at all".Aditya soni (talk) 01:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)Aditya soni (talk) 03:11, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Aditya. Let me reply to some of your comments:

• the astrological methods of the Hindus are essentially and fundamentally different from the Chaldeans and the Egyptians - There are plenty similarities between Chaldean and Hindu astrology, although no one knows who borrowed from whom. Both cultures divide the circle into 12 and 360 (the basis of modern angle system).
• The astrology found in the Vedas is not horary (ie it is not based on birth charts). Horashastra was influenced by the Greeks, as the Yavanajataka itself says. Natal astrology was found in Ramayana and Mahabharata because they were edited several times, and the final version came only during the Gupta period, long after the Hellenistic period.
• I cant help but notice how you keep on referring to astrology as 'science'. Astrology may be a knowledge system, a branch of study, but it is not a science because it does not use the scientific method. No one is against representing astrology in this encyclopedia, but ultimately you cant claim in WP's voice that astrology is scientific. Jayakumar RG (talk) 14:34, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Offer I dunno about being a good mentor, but I'd be happy to work with Aditya soni if nobody with more knowledge of the subject can be found. I think we should put anything problematical into user space, work on it there, and push it into mainspace when we're happy with it. I don't think anything good is going to come out of more ANI discussion - most of the regulars here, bless their hearts, have no knowledge or interest in the Vedas. --Pete (talk) 08:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as it appears to comprise two distinct issues. First is "he uses dense language" which is an endemic problem on Wikipedia, although Wikipedia also has many articles written in purple prose as well. That is a good reason for editing articles to make them more readable, but not a strong reason for anything else. The second issue is the perennial "religion/science/fringe" trichotomy. My suggestion is that articles on religion be clearly marked as relating to religion, and not being in the "science" category in the first place -- thus stopping the never-ending battle about placing "fringe theory" on each clearly religious topic. We should be able to trust that readers can understand that an article properly labeled in a "religious category" is not about "science". Collect (talk) 13:46, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Dear Pete (talk), the issue is not the Vedas but my articles on Hindu astrology. Permit me to give a brief but essential explanation.

All created things transform, this is one of the many salient aspects of Truth. But then, Truth itself is very difficult to apprehend. Before coming face to face with Truth, which is present everywhere equally, we are asked by our ancient seers to give up righteousness and unrighteousness, we are asked to discard what we think is real and that we think is unreal, and we are also asked to discard that by which these two are meant to be discarded. Man is certainly not instinctively drawn towards Fate even though he is more aware of death. All knowledge including Astrology gained through experience and study reflects man’s attempt to understand the purpose of his own being and all else connected therewith, as also to know what determines Fate.

Our ancients who had propounded the principles of prediction were conversant with the science of astrophysics and possessed a high level of inferential ability; they were able to draw inferences with astounding results from what they observed in the ordinary course. They knew that revelation requires a human agency for its own manifestation and they also knew that knowledge can be more dangerous than ignorance. Therefore, leaving no scope for doubt and economizing on words, they evolved the method of simply defining the basic and the most advanced principles of prediction and described various yogas (planetary combinations) along with their results avoiding repetition and without offering explanations. All Sanskrit texts on Hindu astrology exhibit this particular methodology. Astrology is man’s effort to understand Time; it begins from the stage when a firm grip over the various principles of Astronomy and mathematics has been achieved.

Astrology is intended for prediction, and prediction itself depends on the Rising Ascendant or the Lagna and the other positions of the planets, which positions involve astronomical calculations. Thus, Hindu astrology consists of Ganitha, the mathematical part, and Phalita, the predictive part, and is more a science of tendencies which assumes that planets influence the activity of man and hence, his destiny. Hindu astrology actually speaks of the fruits of Poorvapunya (the results of the karmas of previous births). Since all events are believed to re-occur in a pre-determinable manner, therefore, astrology is said to be the study of man’s response to stimuli, and that planets simply offer a lawful channel for the outward operation of cause-effect equilibriums each man has set in motion in the past. Prediction is broadly based on the strength, nature, aspect and combination of planets, on the qualities and the strength of the rasis (signs) and bhavas (houses) owned, occupied and aspected by the planets, and on the influence of the yogas. Hindu astrology basically requires the discerning eye to be able to identify the yogas and then apply the prescribed results judicially in accordance with the established principles.

The ancient Sanskrit texts are the primary source, the translations and commentaries on these texts are the secondary source, and texts that explain the application of principles with the aid of live examples are the tertiary source. The translators, the commentators and the later teachers and practitioners have retained the expression of the original texts because the original expression, which is treated as a statement of fact, cannot be changed. For example, Kalidasa in his Uttara Kalamrita, tells us that if either Saturn or Venus or both are devoid of strength, occupy the trikasthanas (the 6th, the 8th or the 12th house) or are in association with the lords of those trikasthanas or own the trikasthanas then during their dasha (planetary-period) they will prove auspicious, and if one owns an auspicious bhava and the other an auspicious bhava then they will prove all the more auspicious. This statement is an observation given as a principle; it cannot be changed by us. This can be tested only through experience because observations do not depend upon specifications alone, and qualitative analysis does not depend on the quality of the sample in hand but on its natural order.

My friends have found my way of writing and the presentation of various principles to be unreadable and violating certain Wikipedia norms. This is so mainly because they had never before encountered such things, they have no inkling of Hindu astrology, they do not understand the mechanics involved; they do not respect the sanctity of ancient Hindu scriptures; they do not know Sanskrit and are also not aware of the importance of brevity. In my articles I have remained faithful to the Sanskrit texts and commentators who have presented the principles etc., as statements of fact. I cannot change their language or mode of expression to suit the critics of Hindu astrology who do not even know Hindu astrology. Nowhere have I given my own opinion or conducted any kind of research. I have not violated any Wikipedia’s norms. If you know Hindu astrology well please do improve these articles, but in case you also find this task difficult (as I have found) then why burden the unprepared editors and readers with information which is beyond their ordinary understanding notwithstanding the fact that there are more persons visiting the pages on Hindu astrology than on the Upanishads and the Vedas.

You find me here because of your notification and because I am eager to know how this discussion ends. Regards.Aditya soni (talk) 13:46, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

You have apparently taken the texts of the old Sanskrit works at authoritative and by wikipedia policies and guidelines as per WP:FRINGE and related pages we cannot. I suggest you read that page and other policy and guideline pages which relate to the broad topic of pseudoscience which is one of the fields all forms of astrology fall into. Also, it might help if you more clearly demonstrated an understanding of the fact that wikipedia is intended to be read and useful for general readers not specialists. There are other WMF entities which are more suitable for more in–depth discussion of topics which cannot be achieved in wikipedia given or particuar policies and guidelines. You have already received one generous offer above to help you better work within the existing wikipedia structre and I think it would be in your best interests to take it. I am willing to offer what assistance I can too. But you do apparently have some mistaken assmuptions about the depth and width of coverage wikipedia gives any topics and those mistaken assumptions seem to be causing you some probems here.John Carter (talk) 14:40, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

This is not the place to discuss the intricacies of the subject. I don't know - or have much interest in - Hindu astrology per se. Few here do. But it can be presented as lore in the same way that we present other arcana. I accept that the primary texts are beyond modification and that the laws governing the movements of planets and their supposed influences are likewise fixed. Such is the nature of Prakṛti. But in the Wikipedia world, we cannot couch our descriptions as absolute fact. We may perhaps quote recognised scholars in their opinions, but they must be presented as opinions, not eternal truth. It is a matter of presentation.

There is no doubt that Hindu astrology is notable enough to be included here, given the vast number of followers. We are a broad church and there is room in Wikipedia for all manner of arcana. You will find details of every episode of Gilligan's Island, for example, and we are positively devoted to football. These topics have their own saints, and fanatics who religiously chronicle the important trivia. Hindu astrology can be presented in these terms - a collection of articles and subarticles on a subject area with a wide following.

The typical Wikipedia editor, especially those with their minds aligned on this page, has little knowledge or interest in the subject, is quite unfamiliar with Sanskrit, let alone the Devanagari characters currently used to present it. The Vedic scriptures might as well have been composed by space aliens, for all the impact they have on the consciousness of the typical wikiperson. Hence their description of a subject familiar to hundreds of millions of human beings as "fringe". They know no better, but here is not the place to educate them.

We can work together, probably find others with an interest in the project, and massage the information into acceptable wikiformat. --Pete (talk) 19:06, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

But Pete, one by one, the editors who have participated in this discussion, have started deleting the pages created by me. Some have even defaced a few with large uncalled for tags. Shortly, there will be no article for John Carter, you and me to re-work. All problems thus stand resolved. I thank you all.Aditya soni (talk) 02:56, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

@Pete: I am all for it. I will be back on wiki after a 3-day break starting now. I am not very familiar to the topic like Aditya, but quite interested. @Aditya soni: Meanwhile, please read some of my thoughts on the comment you made above. Jayakumar RG (talk) 06:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Topic Ban Review (2nd Attempt)

Hi, the original thread got archived, so for convenience I've copied the postings from the original thread to here again. Hopefully that's the right thing to do.
Cailil is really busy in real life and so has recommended that I ask here for someone to do the review. The previous review can be found here. I know it takes time to do a review, so thank you in advance. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 10:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

This isn't about "someone" doing a review. You're now asking the community to do a review. First: you'll need to link to the discussion that led to the topic ban. You'll need to link to where you were notified that the topic ban was in effect. You'll need to educate us as to what you've been doing in the meantime - i.e. showing that you've been able to edit positively outside the area of the topic without any squabbles. Finally, you need to show us your way forward: if permitted back into that topic area, how will you act? What will you do to avoid the behaviours that led to the topic ban. Remember that if the community lessens the topic ban and you go back to the same issues, the next step is not a re-imposition of the topic ban, it's usually a block - after all, a TBAN's role is to be that "last chance before an indef" the panda ɛˢˡ” 10:41, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

FYI, some background; this stems from Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive626#User:LevenBoy which led to the issue being added to general sanctions; the page listing topic bans etc. is at Wikipedia:General sanctions/British Isles Probation Log. HighKing was topic-banned in August 2011, it was lifted in June 2012, and then re-imposed in June 2013. HighKing has not been a prolific editor since then, but I can see no actual violation of the topic ban (i.e. adding/removing "British Isles" in articlespace), although he has been active on the talkpages of British Isles and some others as regards naming disputes. Black Kite (talk) 11:04, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The fact that he was let back in and did it again doesn't give me the warm fuzzies the panda ɛˢˡ” 15:16, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• HighKing has noted my extremely busy RL situation (this wont change in the short term) since this is a community sanction the community can overturn/change the topic ban if there is a consensus to do so. In the past I've been concerned more that there is no fundamental change in HK's behaviour from gnoming in British & Irish topic areas, most notably but not limited to naming disputes related to British-Irish history or historical figures or flora and fauna articles, rather than there being an actual breach of the topic ban. From my point of view as this is an indefinite topic ban there needs to be (as EatsShootsAndLeaves points out) evidence of positive attitudinal change and development of a different/productive way of editing. From my point of view showing the community *only* that ban has not been broken proves that the ban works not that it should be lifted--Cailil ^talk 18:15, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

As noted above, this Topic Ban is specifically in relation to editing in relation to the term "British Isles". From discusions with Cailil, we agreed that the disruptive behaviour was rooted in a couple of habits that ultimately led to squabbles and disruption - and although primarily with a banned sock, it was pointed out (and ultimately I recognized and accepted) that my behaviour was the "trigger" for the sock to engage. Regardless of the right/wrong of each individual situation, ultimately my editing was the common factor, and therefore something needed to change. Since that time, it is true that I've not been as prolific. Partly because my previous "gnoming" in these areas (one of the areas that needed addressing) accounted for a high proportion of my editing, and partly because of changes in real-life. Since the Topic Ban I've created a couple of articles - Sir Fineen O'Driscoll and Coppingers Court, one of the areas I was told I should concentrate on rather than gnoming. I believe I understand which of my editing habits were problematic in the past, and I won't be revisiting those habits in the future. Thanks for taking the time. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 21:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Just to address Cailil's point above - it should be seen that there has been evidence of positive attitudinal change and development, specifically research and creation of articles, and avoiding gnoming. To address Black Kite - Cailil specifically stated that discussions on any issues was still fine and my Topic Ban did not forbid any discussions on any topics. I was never a confrontational editor to begin with, and I always discussed changes and been courteous to those that engaged on various topics. I think its fair to say that the deep-rooted issue was my insistence on an exact definition of "British Isles" in articles, with references to show that it was being used within the references. Other areas, involving an "exact defintion and usage", were also highlighted by Cailil even though these topics did not fall under the Topic Ban, but I understood what was being said. I don't believe there's any need for the Topic Ban to remain in place any longer as I've shown I understand the reasons why it was in place, and I've addressed those editing habits at the root of the problem. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 12:40, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• The fact that it fell off with only dissenting opinion meant the request failed. No need to repost the panda ₯’ 14:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

It isn't clear to me that there were only dissenting opinions, apologies for reposting if that is the case. I saw that editors had posted some observations and questions, and it seemed to me that it "fell off" due to a lack of activity. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 17:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support lifting of topic ban. I'm impressed that you've not gone the sock/evasion route & have thus respected your top ban. If the community chooses to lift the TB, I would recommend less attention to the topic-in-question, in future. I don't wann seeya getting blocked or worst. :) GoodDay (talk) 15:40, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you GoodDay. As I've said above, I believe I've addressed the behaviour that was at the root of the problem, and have shown to the community that I've learned. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 17:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I've confidence in you :) GoodDay (talk) 17:07, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support lifting with the appropriate ROPE. Happy to give a second or third chance. Drmies (talk) 19:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Drmies - I assume ROPE is some further probation period? Is there somewhere you can point me? -- HighKing⁺⁺ 11:34, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

HighKing, see WP:ROPE. It's not so much a rope as it is a leash... Drmies (talk) 18:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support lifting -- He has shown respect for the sanctions. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 09:30, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• No Support A leopard never changes its spots. Highking has been banned in the past and as soon as a ban is lifted returns to previous behaviour. To recount that Highking was never sanctioned for sockpuppetry while operating under his 2nd account - User:Popaice. No support. Dubs boy (talk) 17:16, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose As Calil states, a lack of problematic editing since simply proves that the topic ban works. My experience from working on problematic areas affected by nationalist POV is that editors do not change; topic bans expire and the same editing patterns re-emerge. HighKing can be a productive editor in other areas of Wikipedia if they wish, but I don't believe allowing them to return to the whole "British Isles" combat arena would be a productive outcome. Number 57 10:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

On that basis, is it true to say that you wouldn't agree to a Topic Ban ever being overturned? Harsh. No chance then for an editor to show they have the ability to learn from mistakes, or show that they've recognized their problematic behaviour? -- HighKing⁺⁺ 10:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

In areas with bad POV problems like this, I think lifetime topic bans are the most effective way of cleaning them up. As I alluded to above, I have edited around the edges of another area with some awful issues, and I haven't seen topic ban work as a temporary solution - the problematic editors return when it expires with exactly the same viewpoint - sometimes they are more subtle in their POV after their ban, but the POV remains. The issue for me is the desire to return to a topic area in which the banned editors clearly have a strong POV, and I don't believe it is a positive move to allow this. Number 57 10:24, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Some background: I edited a lot of articles that in my opinion (at the time), used the term "British Isles" incorrectly. We attempted to create rules for usage and formed WP:BISE and discussed edits among interested editors. That initiative eventually failed, and led to the discovery of a large sock farm (still active today). I wasn't ever editing from a "nationalistic" point of view, but from a (misguided) attempt to enforce a standard definition across lots of articles. Cailil correctly pointed this out (took a while for me to grasp, but I see it now), and also pointed out that this was the root of problems caused by gnoming in other areas. Enforcing definitions (especially of controversial terms) where definitions are not "exact" in the real world, was the problem. I don't believe the Topic Ban is serving any useful purpose any longer - it is "working" not because it is in effect, but because I've learned and cut out the problematic behaviour (and learned too). I don't believe any editor would say I'm a POV warrior (exceptions made for the sock farm obviously), or that I even have strong nationalistic POVs. It's less of a desire to "return" to a topic area, and more of a desire to rejoin the community as a fully-fledged and trusted editor, without a shadow of a Topic Ban hanging over my edits, and being able to show that editors do learn, and do change for the good. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 10:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Ha! This made me laugh. In truth, Highking systematically went page to page removing the term "British Isles" and at an unreplicable speed. I think a history of edit warring and sockpuppetry are reasons enough to decline this request.Dubs boy (talk) 21:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. If this editor had chosen to edit in an other way then things would be different, however on the editor's own admission, editing has just been reduced so things are not different. It sounds like the editor is mainly interested in editing in the problematic way. Maybe it would help if the editor indicated the kind of constructive edits that he wishes to make but cannot due to the topic ban. Op47 (talk) 22:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Op47 - just in the interests of transparency and completeness, No, that's not what I said. Yes, my editting has been reduced, but I stated that it is mainly due to cutting out the problematic "gnoming", and partially because I'm not as active as I was before. You appear to attribute the "reduction" as involuntary, and therefore nothing has changed. Not true. 80+% of the reduction is my choice, because the gnoming is the underlying problem. And in terms of "different" editting patterns - I have also researched and created a couple of new articles and working on another. But you've asked one important question - "what kind of constructive edits I wish to make but cannot due to the Topic Ban". I'm not going to blow smoke. The honest answer ... I've nothing in mind. Keeping the Topic Ban in place wouldn't affect my editing .... but would and does affect my "standing" in the community. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 09:22, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - If the topic ban is lifted simply for "time served" reasons, HighKing will likely return to the same behavior that led to the topic ban in the first place. This, in turn, will attract more disruptive socking to counter his edits. Déjà vu. I think that HighKing should not be allowed any wiggle room to muck about with the "British Isles" phrase at all, ever, as it will only lead to disruption (major headaches). The restriction is not an albatross around his neck. It is a safeguard against disruption. I have no doubt that the stalkers that watch his every edit will come out of the woodwork the second the restriction was lifted and he made a "BI" edit. Not worth the trouble. Doc talk 09:50, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Doc - to be honest, I kinda agree with you. The only point I would highlight is that I'm being heavily penalized (in my opinion) for the actions (past and potential future) of the sock (who's already attempting to disrupt this discussion). I recognize that the community can't afford to invest the time, energy and resources into every petty event, and I also recognize that the community has no appetite for anything to do with the phrase "British Isles", regardless of whether any edits are actually right or wrong. As you say, and I agree, the disruption isn't worth it. You say I'm likely to return to the same behaviour. I'm saying the opposite and I'm asking the community to trust me. You say it is not an albatross around my neck. Well .. I think it is because it's a sign that the community doesn't trust that I can behave appropriately. And it's going to be impossible for me to demonstrate that the leaf has been turned without a little trust from the community. I don't know what more I can do. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 11:06, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello :) I have to agree with Cailil above when he says "...showing the community *only* that ban has not been broken proves that the ban works not that it should be lifted". I see no reason to remove the ban because I know the background on this. It's not a "penalty" on you. It's there to "prevent" disruption, and it should remain in place to prevent disruption at large. Nothing personal. Doc talk 11:22, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi :-) I don't get that. How can it *not* be viewed as personal? It's a Topic Ban on me? I've said above that I recognize fully (and hopefully articulated the fact that I recognize fully) the behaviour that causes the problem. I'm asking that the community trusts me enough to lift the Topic Ban. You don't agree ... ergo you don't trust me. Kinda hard not to see it as personal.... I'm not whining or making excuses or blaming the sock or ranting. But I really don't see how the Topic Ban will ever be lifted at this rate ... which translates into the fact that I can never rejoin the trusted editors who operate without a Topic Ban. Victory to socking? Taking your logic one step further, if this Topic Ban extended to all editors, then it wouldn't be personal. But it doesn't. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 11:54, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Lies, Bias and Abuse of Position: User DougWeller

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User DougWeller has engaged in long term, systematic, abuse of his position in the article Arthur Kemp. motivated by a clear political bias.

1. User DougWeller has, over a long period, made blatant, politically motivated edits at Arthur Kemp, in which he posts up all manner of completely unsubstantiated allegations, and then deliberately deletes any evidence--backed up by solid documentary and referenced sources, which completely refute the allegations he has have posted up.

2. User DougWeller's continuous abuse as an administrator has included getting me blocked whenever I correct any of his blatantly biased edits.

3. User DougWeller has now posted up on my Talk page a completely unfounded lie that I have tried to abuse the system by logging in from another IP address. I strenuously deny this, and user DougWeller has absolutely no evidence to prove this allegation which he has deliberately posted up in an attempt to damage my standing on Wikipedia.

I request urgent action on this matter, and ask that the unbiased administrators intervene in this matter.TheFallenCrowd (talk) 15:33, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Do you have any diffs to demonstrate any of these claims? Can you give us a link to where you and this user tried to work it out directly? Chillum 15:37, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

TheFallenCrowd You were supposed to inform DougWeller that you had started this thread. Fortunately Location has done so. Please follow the proper protocol in the future. MarnetteD|Talk 15:46, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I informed DOugWeller on his talk page, where I first posted up the objections listed above.TheFallenCrowd (talk) 15:50, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Did you attempt to talk to this person before coming to the noticeboard? I see you dropping accusations on his talk page then coming directly here. Was there a more in depth conversation somewhere else?

If you want us to see the "abuse" you are talking to then you will need to provide evidence in the form of diffs that this has been going on. Chillum 15:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Looking at your user talk page, TheFallenCrowd, I don't see any indication that DougWeller is acting out of step with community standards. From the look of things, you've been edit warring on Arthur Kemp for months about two years. I'm really surprised that was your first block. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:56, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Example of User DougWeller's abuse of editing: In the article Arthur Kemp, the SPLC is quoted as saying that Kemp "left South Africa because he testified in the trials of Janusz Waluś and Clive Derby-Lewis." The SPLC has absolutely no evidence for this, and it is clearly a politically-motivated allegation. Nonetheless, my edit did not delete the allegation, but merely posted up referencd evidence showing that Kemp left South Africa in 2007, 14 years after the trial.

The original allegation read as follows:

"In 1993, Kemp was a prosecution witness in the trial relating to the murder of the South African Communist Party leader Chris Hani. A 2007 report from the Southern Poverty Law Center asserted that he left South Africa because he testified in the trials of Janusz Waluś and Clive Derby-Lewis.[4]"

My edit changed this to read as follows:

"In 1993, Kemp was a prosecution witness in the trial relating to the murder of the South African Communist Party leader Chris Hani. A 2007 report from the Southern Poverty Law Center asserted that he left South Africa because he testified in the trials of Janusz Waluś and Clive Derby-Lewis.[4] Furthermore, Kemp pointed out that he had emigrated from South Africa in 2007, fourteen years after the trial took place, and that this was "Hardly the actions of someone "fleeing in fear."[5]"

As you can see, this did not even delete the (unsubstantiated) allegation from the SPLC, but merely gave a referenced refutation of the allegation.

User DougWeller has continuously deleted this--and other referenced edits --and when I undo his edits, he then bans me under the 3RR rule. I have never objected to this, because I know what the 3RR rule is, but my argument here is that user DougWeller leaves me no choice but to revert his edits, knowing full well that he can then get me banned under this rule.TheFallenCrowd (talk) 16:00, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

This sounds like trying to shoehorn a content dispute into a complaint about behavior. Has there been any attempt to discuss this beyond reverting and sniping in edit summaries? —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 16:02, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• I have a very strong suspicion that TheFallenCrowd has COI regarding Arthur Kemp and probably should not be editing in that subject area. Zad68 16:03, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Example of User DougWeller's lies: On My talk page, user DougWeller has posted up the following slanderous lie:

"It's pretty obvious you tried to edit as an IP after you were blocked."

This completely untrue, and totally unsubstantiated. I have no idea what he talking about, and he has only put this up as part of his ongoing campaign to undermine my status on Wikipedia so that he can continue making the biased edits, as detailed above.TheFallenCrowd (talk) 16:03, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Have you tried discussing the issue calmly and rationally with Doug on the article talk page, instead of just hurling accusations? Just a suggestion. --‖ Ebyabe ^talk - Health and Welfare ‖ 16:07, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

The IP appeared immediately after TFC had been blocked for edit warring. The IP deleted exactly the same content that TFC had been edit-warring to keep out of the article. Paul B (talk) 16:15, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea who reverted that edit. It was a plain revert, and it is outrageous that I am accused of doing it without any evidence at all. It could have been absolutely anyone who saw the obvious bias--particularly the claim by DougWeller that the "link was not working" (which was, of course, another lie) when it clearly was. Once again, if you have any evidence that it was me who made the unlogged revert, please post it up here, or stop making this outrageous insinuation that I have tried to subvert Wiki rules.TheFallenCrowd (talk) 16:35, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Hamlet, act III, scene II. Paul B (talk) 16:59, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

This "rant" is fairly typical of the debating style of The Fallen Crowd, who has, shall we say, a clearly close connection to the subject of the article Arthur Kemp, a well known white supremacist and author of the book/website March of the Titans. TFC has repeatedly attempted to whitewash the article. He has for quite a while been attempting to delete well sourced information about Kemp's testimony in a trial in South Africa. Dougweller and other editors, myself included, have repeatedly reverted his removal of the content. TFC has just come back from a ban for edit warring, and has dived in once more with exactly the same deletions (which also make the section unintelligible). He is trying to win an edit war of attrition. Paul B (talk) 16:05, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 6)I found evidence of the political agenda here.

1) The only edits Dougweller made to the article before TheFallenCrowd were noting Kemp's connection to the BNP and pointing out problems with citing lulu.com.

2) TheFallenCrowd removed sourced information and inserted WP:SELFPUB claims that are contradicted by WP:RSs. If it was about neutrality, he'd've (at most) only added Kemp's claim with "Kemp, however, claims..."

3) I'm seeing this before the block and this immediately after the block. Looks rather WP:DUCK-y to me. And don't worry, @TheFallenCrowd:, Doug's accusations won't damage your standing, you edit warring to turn an article into a puff-piece for a white supremacist will. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:06, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

That edit by the IP sure quacks loud. It does look a lot like evasion to me. Chillum 16:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• I have no idea who made that edit. It certainly wasn't me. If you have any evidence that it was, please do post it here, otherwise please stop spreading lies and disinformation.TheFallenCrowd (talk) 16:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Wonder why they didn't ask to be unblocked on the grounds of not being you? That still wouldn't be proof, but it'd at least be the beginning of semi-plausible doubt. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:24, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that because an anonymous poster reverted an article and then hasn't come back, that this is proof this is me? Do you have any evidence for this? If so, please post it up here so that everyone can see.TheFallenCrowd (talk) 16:42, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

The correct place to do so is here and @TheFallenCrowd: I'm not sure how familiar you are with Wikipedia, but we do have people who can see such things. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 16:48, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Good. Why hasn't anyone looked into if it was me, before posting up these outrageous lies?TheFallenCrowd (talk) 16:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As listed as WP:SOCK "Logging out to make problematic edits as an IP address" is one of the classic indicators of socking. MarnetteD|Talk 16:50, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Why did the IP make the same edit you would have if you had not been blocked, continuing the exact sort of argument you were having before you were blocked, with the exact same writing voice, and not try to be unblocked on the grounds that it wasn't you? What argument do you possibly have for us to not believe it was you? Just saying "it wasn't me" doesn't prove anything. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

As far as I can see the IP just reverted DougWeller's change, and pointed out that he had lied about the URL not being visible. What evidence do you have that it was me? Please post it here. I am more than happy for anyone to look at whatever technical details they need to. It seems as if your tactic here is just to throw political epithets and accuse me of lying wihtout any foundation at all.TheFallenCrowd (talk) 16:59, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Getting an editor's account blocked is not an "abuse as an administrator." In this case DougWeller followed correct procedure in setting up a complaint at the edit-warring noticeboard, and an uninvolved administrator imposed a block. TheFallenCrowd had the opportunity to reply, which he did, and to appeal the block, which he did not. He made more than three reverts in 24 hrs and that is usually sufficient for an account to be blocked. TFD (talk)

Note that there's now an open SPI on this issue. It would be nice to get at least one of the blatant socks blocked right off so we can get an autoblock in place and avoid having to semi ANI. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 17:30, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I see that's already been taken care of. Excellent. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 17:32, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Considering that this has now turned disruptive and this editor doesn't seem to be here for the right reasons, I think we should turn this into a block discussion. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 17:35, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Once the check user technical whatever is completed, I will expect an apology from you on my talk page for the utterly scurrilous allegations you have made against me regarding fake accounts, sock puppetry etc. Or am I hoping for too much?TheFallenCrowd (talk) 18:11, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Provided, whatever the results are, you apologize regardless in an equally prominent place for disrupting the site with your temper tantrum over not being able to turn an article into a propaganda piece in favor of a neo-Nazi. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:15, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Topic ban on TheFallenCrowd for Arthur Kemp?

• (edit conflict) Question: Are there grounds for a topic ban for TheFallenCrowd on Arthur Kemp? (See also the previous ANI thread on this issue) —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 16:08, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
  • While I also think a block may be appropriate (in spite of the possibility that some of the socks below were just a banned user trolling), I agree with Ian below that a topic ban should still be put in place. Should TFC ever return (e.g., via WP:OFFER), such a return should still be subject to a topic ban on Arthur Kemp. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 02:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban before it's even formalized. We do not need propaganda for white supremacists here. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:11, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Addendum: *Support block as well, still supporting topic ban in case block is overturned or does not go through. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:48, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support Topic ban. The Fallen Crowd is a POV warrior dedicated to whitewashing Kemp. Paul B (talk) 16:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oh I see. Because I dare post up referenced additions to an article, which refute unsubstantiated allegations, you now wish to ban me? Democracy only as long as it is your democracy?TheFallenCrowd (talk) 16:21, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

No, because you censored reliably sourced information and added questionably sourced propaganda for a neo-Nazi, edit warred to keep it, and lied about others when you didn't get your way. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

"Lied about others" -- where is your evidence of this? Or is it just another unsubstantiated lies from you? As for the rest of your comments, your political slip is showing.TheFallenCrowd (talk) 16:47, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Accusing others of political bias for undoing your whitewashing on a white supremacist's article is nothing but hypocritical lying. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:01, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• Wow that boomerang came back quickly oh, I support the topic ban as well. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 16:27, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS applies as well as several other policies. BTW Wikipedia is not a democracy. MarnetteD|Talk 16:30, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban Given the long history and lack of neutrality I think this is reasonable. Given the misrepresentations of sources I support a block ranging from 6 months to indef as first choice if gains consensus. Chillum 16:33, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Question - WP:SNOW close? Ian.thomson (talk) 16:35, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• Community ban discussions should continue for at least 24 hours. Chillum 16:39, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support well-deserved boomerang. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 16:36, 26 August 2014 (UTC) Changed my mind - support block and topic ban instead. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 21:45, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support The repeated misrepresentation of a source back in April shows TheFallenCrowd has considerable trouble editing neutrally on this topic. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:38, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment this has got to be one of the fastest topic bans that'll ever be set, or am I forgetting something? Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 16:39, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I'd really like to see an admin snow close this. Do you think we might have a record? Ian.thomson (talk) 16:41, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Again, community ban discussions should continue for at least 24 hours. This is not a race and a record is not our goal. Chillum 16:43, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

It's nice to see good things happen, hence the enthusiasm that you're seeing. When the community comes together to stop things like this, it gives me just a little bit more faith in the ability of the community. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 16:46, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

That's fine, but we have to be careful that enthusiasm doesn't slip into grave-dancing. If we approach it from a "we're sorry to have to do this, but..." angle rather than a "ding dong the witch is dead" (of which I have been guilty of in the past), there's always a chance that the editor may be able to redeem him/herself in the future. Tarc (talk) 16:55, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Scratch that; good faith went out the window with the sock votes below. Tarc (talk) 17:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Obvious sock-puppet votes. Tarc (talk) 17:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Oppose take this to RfC instead, like User:Braaad. --WoW65 (talk) 16:48, 26 August 2014 (UTC) - Account was 12 minutes old at time of this post.  Looks like a duck to me. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC) Oppose This belongs in Wikipedia:Requests for comment, and then Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration, not discussed here. --TheEditorFromEpsomRC2 (talk) 17:08, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support, and call for a quick emptying of his sock drawer as well. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:44, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Once the check user technical whatever is completed, I will expect an apology from you on my talk page for the utterly scurrilous allegations you have made against me regarding fake accounts, sock puppetry etc. Or am I hoping for too much?TheFallenCrowd (talk) 18:11, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Provided, whatever the results are, you apologize regardless in an equally prominent place for disrupting the site with your temper tantrum over not being able to turn an article into a propaganda piece in favor of a neo-Nazi. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:15, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support - This user's editing at Arthur Kemp is wholly detrimental to the integrity of the article.- MrX 18:46, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban. Depending on the results of the SPI, a Site Ban may be necessary for sock-puppetry. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:57, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

*Support and maybe review some of his other edits especially on subjects such as the Korherr Report. These edits[13] don't seem to match these sources,[14] [15] [16](and others) and the article still reflects his edits. Dougweller (talk) 20:55, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• Changing to Support indefinite block in preference to topic ban having thought more about his other edits. Dougweller (talk) 16:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

• Could you clarify for the benefit of those of us not fluent in German what the issue is? I note that TheFallenCrowd seems to be citing a primary source (which is in itself probably not appropriate), and if he is doing so in a manner which misrepresents it, we should probably be considering an indefinite block. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:09, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I've reviewed Korherr Report and some sources and while I did not found outright lies he certainly twisted the article by selective use of mostly primary sources and omission of important facts. (e.g. "not an SS member" sourced to Korherr himself, omission of NSDAP membership and giving the overall impression that K. was just an statistician who knew nothing about the Holocaust.) Basically EEML-style, only much more disgusting. 80.132.69.140 (talk) 23:10, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Basically that's it. TFC has made Korherr look almost like an innocent victim which is not what the sources say. He gave a big pov twist to the article. I'm guessing that EEML is Eastern European Mailing list. Dougweller (talk) 05:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't think a topic ban is appropriate here. We've got a POV pushing sock master. Blocking is the appropriate remedy. Support block.--v/r - TP 21:03, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I still think a block is more appropriate, but per below he is under only a 3 month block and so I strongly support at least this topic ban when he returns if not an extension of the block.--v/r - TP 22:54, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban, an appropriate response to POV-pushing. Miniapolis 01:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban immediately, then site ban if SPI confirms socks as User:Robert McClenon, suggest a Checkuser for sleepers too. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:24, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support block. I had blocked the editor recently for warring with Doug. I was myself surprised the editor hadn't been blocked earlier for tendentious editing, and not just in one article. A block would work better here than a ban. Wifione ^Message 12:59, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

After reading the above, I went ahead & blocked the gentleman; I elected to do the work because I needed practice with the steps to block someone, & he clearly deserved it. However, standard offer applies. I assigned him a three month block only because the discussion was over in a little less than 24 hours; better to show a little leeway, just in case. And based on his interactions with other Wikipedians, I expect he'll rack up more points before the 3 months are over. -- llywrch (talk) 18:00, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry llywrch, but do you mean after the three months are over? As he can't do much if he's blocked. However, the block doesn't supercede the ban. I think we should still go ahead with the ban. Dougweller (talk) 18:54, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

He can appeal his block on his user page, which he still has access to. A reasonable person could, conceivably, successfully appeal his block. But I think his efforts will end differently. Anyway, I picked 3 months on my read of the consensus, which was clearly in favor of swift action; my actions were as an uninvolved Admin, & I gave him the minimum indicated by the consensus. If another uninvolved Admin feels the consensus indicated a longer block -- or an outright community ban -- instead, feel free to change the terms of his block. -- llywrch (talk) 20:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Our community ban policy does call for a minimum of 24 hours and you blocked after 25 hours so it is not an unreasonable time to close the discussion. Though I do think that consensus is still developing as to the duration of the ban. I think time will tell if the block duration is okay as is or if it should be modified. Chillum 22:20, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I have no opinion as to block duration (I'm frankly not sure there was consensus for a block but I'm not about to argue that), but the ban should be indefinite. TFC was POV pushing and edit warring on this article for two years, in spite of multiple warnings on the matter. It might not sound particularly civil of me, but I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell of TFC contributing positively to that article at least for the foreseeable future. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 22:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TheFallenCrowd is now closed. There is no evidence linking TheFallenCrowd to any of the named accounts. Indeed, all of those accounts are hiding behind proxies, whereas TheFallenCrowd is not. Thus, the only thing left is the block evasion. I believe the non-technical evidence that TheFallenCrowd used an IP to evade his block is strong. However, that is a far cry from being a sock master with multiple accounts. Therefore, I would appreciate it if people would stop accusing TheFallenCrowd of socking because without evidence it's inappropriate. None of this prevents the community from implementing a topic ban. None of this prevents the community from blocking TheFallenCrowd for reasons other than sock puppetry.--Bbb23 (talk) 04:59, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. We still need to close this before it gets archived. Dougweller (talk) 18:01, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Anybody want to close this? I think we've been open more than long enough. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 14:24, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jack Sebastian WP:CIVIL and attempts to bias conflict resolution

There are several problems with this user, but I'll bring up two here:

1. I have repeatedly told him to stop referring to my contributions or the sources I find as fecal matter and in other obscene terms [17] [18] Hit CTRL-F "crap" or "festering" "steaming" on either my talk page or talk:Oathkeeper and you'll see it. (I've actually told him to stop more times; these are just two of the most recent. If this isn't enough times to tell someone to quit swearing at me, give me a number and I'll come back then. Not kidding.) I'd like it if someone else told him to reread WP:CIVIL. He's clearly not going to listen to me. This isn't his only problem with civility, but it's the most clear-cut. He's also ordered me to "find another article to edit." I think there might also be WP:OWN issues in play.

2. He's also attempting to bias an ongoing discussion at the RSN: There is currently a filing there for Westeros.org.[19]. One of the issues that came up is the fact that this site has been cited as a source in several GA-rated articles similar to the one in dispute. These articles contain content that corresponds to the disputed text and use the same format. In those articles, the content has been stable for years. Some of these GA articles have been reevaluated and the content and source were always kept.

I realize that precedent is not the be-all-end-all of RSN decisions on Wikipedia, but it is on the list. I feel that it is misleading of this other editor to delete all the precedents while the discussion is ongoing. I have asked him to revert and wait until after the RSN discussion is complete. He dismissed my concerns. [20] [21] [22]

He also keeps insisting on using a biased header for the RSN discussion. I've offered compromises but he insists on keeping it.

Ordinarily I'd wait a little longer on #2, but he's made his position clear and the issue is time-sensitive. If this second issue is better addressed elsewhere, like DRN, kindly let me know. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

While I suspect that this is Darkfrog's usual practice of forum-shopping (she currently has no less than two RSN requests, two RfC's and more section discussions on multiple pages than I can even bother to count), I will respond to this complaint.

I often call unusable material (statements or references) crap, as in junk or nonsense. I have never used it as an expletive to refer to Darkfrog. In one instance I did refer to her switch in tactics to moving unusable references from the production section to the plot section of an article:

"Did she find some sources that weren't absolute crap? Sure, but none of those sources went as far as Darkfrog24 wanted - listing all of the chapters that she felt the episode in question drew from. In every single incarnation of her edits, this list remained unchanged. When we kept removing it, she switched tactics and began moving the unproven bits in the the plot summary itself...It was like someone continually offering a plate of steaming dog crap as a side dish to dinner, and when found inedible by others, instead offering that same crap as seasoning and garnish alongside the meal."

To my recollection, I haven't used any of the less excusable synonyms for crap. Darkfrog24 could develop a thicker skin, as I am fairly certain my language isn't that bad at all.

As this complaint about my terrible use of the word 'crap' would appear to be linked to her frustration over the RSN request title, I'd point out that the title is "Westeros.Org. Again". Darkfrog24 seems to think that this use of 'again' is going to scare away all the people who might post there. In point of fact, it is the third time that Westeros.Org has been asked about at RSN. The first time it was shot down as a source and the second filing passed without comment. She has been fighting consensus and RfC findings in a single article for almost three months.

To me, this appears that Darkfrog24 - in filing this complaint - seem to think that the best defense is a good offense. If she wants me to use happier words to describe inadequate sources, I will. It won't make them any more usable, though. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:00, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

No, Jack, I filed this complaint now because you just cursed at me now.

Ah, that's right. I did misquote you. It wasn't "festering" it was "steaming."

Yes, I think that putting a whiny complaint in the header will deter RSN regulars. Some of these sources have been filed more than once because no one responds to them. This is an article about a TV show, and the regulars are fielding questions about Gaza. We need all the respectability we can get. If "Westeros.org: Fansite or expert site?" doesn't suit you then just lose the "Again" and say "Westeros.org" by itself. As for the previous filings, Westeros.org was not rejected as a source. The one in May advised readers about the conflict on Oathkeeper and Breaker of Chains and the next one got no comments from anyone but you and me.

As for your accusations, the consensus of our first RfC was that more sources were needed. So I went and found more sources. That isn't fighting consensus or forum shopping. It's source-finding. It's how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:09, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE: Jack has reverted his deletions. I'd still like it if someone other than myself could tell him that cursing at someone who's asked you to stop is not all right and weigh in on the header issue, but the deletion matter is handled for the present. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I've lived in the American Bible Belt for a few decades, and I can't remember the last time I met someone who considered the word "crap" to constitute cursing. I do think that people should refrain from using the F-word in a professional environment, upon a colleague's clear request, but there is no consensus among Wikipedia administrators for 'that.' So, if you like: Jack, you should not curse at someone who has asked you to stop. Darkfrog, "crap" is not a curse word in any sizeable English-speaking culture or subculture. Does that help? 76.72.20.218 (talk) 22:48, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

You don't think it's a curse word? You don't have to take my word for it: [23] The word means "fecal matter," User76, so I think he should stop referring to my edits as such. Also, while you and your coworkers might not mind tossing the word around a bit, there's a difference between that and referring to someone's hard work as "steaming XXX XXXX," as Jack does above. Even if he'd replaced that last word with "dung" or "droppings," it wouldn't be okay. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

"The word means fecal matter" =/= "is a curse word". "Crap" is not a profanity. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:51, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

You misunderstand. My co-workers and I do not use the word "crap" to describe each other's work. When my boss is displeased with my work, he says, "you fucked up." When I am displeased with his work, I say, "that's some horseshit." Those are curse words. They are acceptable in some industries and subcultures, but not others, and I would not use them to describe anyone's work on Wikipedia. "Crap" is just about the nicest way to express contempt that the language allows (and it is very difficult to work collaboratively without ever expressing contempt for a specific piece of work). Your dictionary definition does not support your argument: "vulgarity" and "curse word" do not mean the same thing, and, as The Bushranger pointed out, "fecal matter" is not relevant. 76.72.20.218 (talk) 00:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• I think that even Darkfrog24 herself would readily admit that my language has been limited to the word crap which, as Bushranger noted, is not a swear word in any circle I've been in, and I have nuns and other religious peeps in my social circles. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 01:46, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Question, guys: If Jack Sebastian had described my efforts as an attempt to feed people steaming dog "feces," would you think that was reasonably civil? Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:12, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

If you were having difficulty feeding an obdurate toddler, I would consider it incivil. If you were mismanaging the resources of a non-profit, I would consider it far too mild. Civilized language is necessarily contextual. For example, when you ask a question like that, I have to describe it as Taking the piss. 76.72.20.218 (talk) 03:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Nope, I'm serious. I don't like that Jack refers to my contributions as feces and I want him to stop. Darkfrog24 (talk) 11:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Crap dose not always = feces. If I tell my kids to pick up their crap, I'm talking about their junk (which itself does not always mean private parts (which itself does not always refer to penises (which itself does not always refer to anatomy))). Seeing as WP:CIVIL does say "comment on content, not contributors", someone can call a poor edit a poor edit and not be expected to be taken to ANI for doing so - it doesn't mean they're calling you crappy. the panda ₯’ 11:53, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedians are required to be civil, but at the same time we're not the kiddie pool (or, for that matter, the Simple English Wikipedia). There is nothing wrong with using the term "crap" (especially when, as the panda observes, it's referring to content as the relevant policy states), the word "crap" is only considered objectionable by folks so puritanical my mother would flinch away from them, and we are not going to be sanctioning anybody for using it, regardless of how many times you claim it's objectionable in defiance of both linguistic reality and common sense. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:06, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• As a long-term witness to the interactions between Jack and DF, and a strong proponent of civility, I'll just say that I don't think Jack has always spoken as well as he might have when addressing things DF had said (I've talked to him directly about that a couple of times). That said, if one reviews the immense amount of discussion at Talk:Oathkeeper, I believe editors might conclude that DF has been editing tendentiously and that the editors involved in that discussion have not received a great deal of support (admin or otherwise) even when they made specific attempts to do so, which has likely increased frustration all around (I know it's made me more...terse...than I might be otherwise). Under the circumstances, which could be construed as DF prolonging a dispute that other editors have generally reached a consensus on, it does not surprise me that on occasion Jack might respond with a degree of tactlessness, and that under the circumstances this should likely be excused unless he begins engaging in clear personal attacks...which I don't believe has generally been the case to this point.

It should perhaps be noted that there was a prior ANI case filed here involving these two. At the time I suggested that interaction and/or topic bans might be in order, but ultimately the case was archived due to inactivity without any resolution. It does not surprise me to see that this matter has been raised here once more.

Diffs are available upon request. DonIago (talk) 14:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I get frustrated too, Don, and I'm confident you have, but neither of us talks to people like that. Neither has any other long- or short-term participant in this debate. When I referred to Jack pulling new complaints out of something, "his hat" was not the first term that sprung to mind, but I put the effort in. It wasn't that hard.

Don, you need to take a look at WP:TEND if you're going to toss it at me. I've repeatedly asked other participants in this dispute, including yourself, if you have any objections other than sourcing to the text in question. You keep saying, "No; bring in a source and this is acceptable." So I keep bringing in sources. That's not tendentious. That's doing what's explicitly asked of me.

But there are bad feelings in play. Frankly, I think that if I'd found Westeros.org first instead of last and realized that there was precedent for the disputed content in GA-rated articles, DQ and I would have finished our discussion in less than a week. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

My apologies, but I'm not interested in having a discussion on this matter with either yourself or Jack; I was just stating my perception of matters to date because I felt it might be relevant. If non-involved admins/editors have questions for me I'll make every effort to address them. Thank you for your understanding. DonIago (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Well thanks for doing so, Doniago. This time, I think I do understand. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Just thought I'd separate this from all the rest, so you can process it, Darkfrog24: you keep saying you are bringing sources. What the complaint was (and is) is that these sources have to fit our criteria for inclusion. Not squeak by the criteria, not result in several RfC's, months of discussion and several-forum-shoppings. They should fit squarely within our criteria. You - all by yourself - have created the toxic work environment that you are in by thinking you know better than the rest of us what belongs in the article. Please clue in. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 14:16, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

User:Joefromrandb

I edited the page George Waters (disambiguation) ([24]) with the edit summaries 'tidy per MOS:D' and '+1'. It was a very small tidy, the knd that I make a dozen of a day without issues, and following the guidelines for disambiguation pages. Joefromrnb then made the following edit undoing mine, with an edit summary ([25]): don't red-link personal names (unless, of course, you're a member of the disambiguation cabal, in which case all rules, up to and including BLP, cease to apply); the level of arrogance is simply staggering. The blp he referred to was actually a long-dead MP. He then undid another part of my edit ([26]) with the edit summary that's quite a misleading redirect and then another part of it with the edit summary WP:LINKSTYLE ([27]). I then thought that if I linked in my edit summaries directly to the policies I was following, Joe would understand, so made this edit [28] with the edit summary Please see MOS:DABPRIMARY; as this isn't an article, the guidelines are different, this [29] with Please see WP:DABREDIR and then this after I had read the comment about how the [my] level of arrogance is staggering ([30]) with edit summary: Instead of leaving rude edit summaries, please read MOS:DABRL and MOS:DABMENTION. This was Joe's response, undoing all my edits with the edit summary don't red-link personal names, don't red-link personal names, don't red-link personal names, don't red-link personal names, don't red-link personal names, don't red-link personal names, don't red-link personal names, don't red-link personal names, don't r [31]. I was quite upset and looked at Joe's talk page to see if I should continue a discussion, but User talk:Joefromrandb showed lots of messages about his previous edit warring. I decided to completely leave the page and leave a message at WP: Wikiproject Disambiguation for a third person to look it over. Unfortunately the discussion did not go well: [32]. User:DuncanHill saw the message and restored the deleted entry: [33] with edit summary: legitimate redlink per " there clearly should be a corresponding article AND there is an existing article to link to (e.g., a blue link) elsewhere on the page". BLP does NOT apply as long dead. Joe deleted it with [34] an edit summary: (forum-shopping to the walled garden of a Wikiproject does not in any way override site-wide consensus; rv meatpuppetry). Joe was determined to remove the MP's link, but DuncanHill created George Waters (MP), edit summaries such as [incoming red links removed, this is now not only in compliance with Wikipedia guidelines, but much more importantly, with Wikiproject Disambiguation ([35]) aren't helpful.

The edit warring continued onto Mallow (UK Parliament constituency), where George Waters (MP) was listed [36], going beyond WP:3RR.

It also went onto George Waters, where Joe had seen that I had added a 'sections' and 'morecat' tag. See the page's edit history: [37]. I didn't get involved or respond, but DuncanHill reverted when Joe persistently removed my tags. In Joe's edit summaries, he described my edits as 'trolling' and wrote 'But it doesn't need the same fucking tag twice' (it doesn't appear that it did have the same tag twice.

It doesn't look good for WP when editors behave like this. Personally, I found it really upsetting. Boleyn (talk) 14:42, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

• Small point - 'twas I who created the unreferenced sub-stub George Waters (MP) - it does now have some refs, and as ever it would benefit from expansion and improvement from knowledgeable editors. Your contributions are welcome. DuncanHill (talk) 18:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
• Sorry @DuncanHill:, I've corrected that. Boleyn (talk) 19:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

• FWIW, I agree with Joe. No article needs to be tagged twice for the same thing- No categories....William 13:32, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

And that excuses his edit-warring and snarky edit summaries? pbp 23:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

@WilliamJE: The other tag was hidden in the wrong place. And there was a hell of a lot more than just that one tag involved. DuncanHill (talk) 11:30, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

User:Ryulong, and another Mr Wiki Pro sock?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Ryulong (talk · contribs · count)

I am having a difficult time dealing with this particular user. While we have attempted to reach compromises on Five Nights at Freddy's, he has butted heads and edit warred with me in the midst of my attempts to ensure that the article is concise and not a violation of WP:NOTGAMEGUIDE and WP:VGSCOPE (I'm aiming for a good DYK here). However, he is engaging in concerning behaviour, particularly on my talk page. He reverted the addition of a message I gave him on his talk page warning him about original research (although I must admit that maybe I shouldn't be doing that?). Then, he left a reply on my page disputing my claims; I simply removed it because I had read it, and we addressed the content issue. But then he reverted me on my talk page to restore the message, stating that I shouldn't "revert me like a run of the mill vandal".

Then, a user, OfficialWikiUser (talk · contribs), left a supportive message on my talk page that explained that Ryulong had been recently partaking in bitey behaviour, pointing to me to User_talk:Ryulong#Stalker, which discussed a Mr Wiki Pro (talk · contribs) sockpuppet named Ryulong biting newbie (talk · contribs) which had been making attacks at him. However, Ryulong outright censored the post from my page, later asserting that it was per WP:BANREVERT because it was a "banned user"; he later defended himself by also arguing that OfficialWikiUser was another Mr Wiki Pro sock. While I did, at first, defend my restoration by defending the remarks as "obviously helpful" to my morale, I must admit that it is starting to feel like something is going on here, especially as OfficialWikiUser refers to "veiws [sic]" that were not specifically posted by this particular user). But, another user has chimed in, noting that Ryulong's actions of censoring posts by accused "banned" users on other people's talk pages are not new.

But still; I think Ryulong is going a little overboard, and comparing normal talk page behaviour to vandalism feels like a personal attack. Somewhere down the line, we need an intervention. ViperSnake151  Talk  19:14, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

This is not censorship. It is called enforcing the WP:Banning policy. What happened months ago regarding the other editor has no bearing on any of this. Banned users evading their ban using sockpuppets should be reverted, blocked, and ignored. This is giving him way too much credit for the shit he's doing. Messages left in bad faith by a banned user's sockpuppets on other users' talk pages should not be protected, as was the message sent by my block regarding x96lee15's user talk debacle.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:18, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

A banned user, Mr Wiki Pro, is using you to get at Ryulong. Don't take the bait. Acroterion (talk) 19:20, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

This should be taken to SPI and dealt with speedily because it does not appear obvious and doing such simple procedures usually helps prevent these issues. It is only causing more confusion and conflict at this point. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:24, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It is obvious. Sockpuppets have repeatedly made pages in my user space accusing me of biting newbies and this is exactly what this new one has said. I don't understand why you have such a problem with me preliminarliy identifying banned user's sockpuppets when I see them.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I must agree with ChrisGualtieri, we have processes you can use to deal with these issues with proper investigations, rather than operating under the process of guilty until proven innocent. ViperSnake151  Talk  19:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It's called WP:DUCK, and checkusers don't want to deal with this because it's obvious enough and the technial evidence is annoying.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

WP:DUCK is an essay. Duck or no duck, administrators have always been the only ones to determine who is a sock and who's not. Extending this right to yourself or any other user is power creep. KonveyorBelt 22:29, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

If I am personally aware of the behavior of the several users who for any period of time over the past 8 years I've been on this website have made it their mission to harass me or are vandalizing articles in an obvious way, then I should be able to make the determination that the account is a sock puppet, report it to the proper place, and then deal with cleaning up after them under the exceptions to 3RR until an administrator or check user is able to stop the new account.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:06, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

As ViperSnake mentions above, this exact same situation happened six months ago on my talk page. Ryulong would continue to revert edits from a supposed "banned" user on my talk page. Ryulong would revert, the other editor would post again, over and over. It only stopped when Ryulong stopped following my talk page. Consensus was in my favor that an editor has control over their talk page; not anyone else. See: [38] — X96lee15 (talk) 19:27, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I was never fucking following your user talk. New sockpuppets would appear elsewhere and they also baited you on your user talk. And that consensus was wrong. WP:DENY and WP:RBI take precedence over taking the bait.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

"Don't annoy someone by giving them the orange new message bar over and over again" trumps "let Ryulong grind his way to the next shiny medal". --NE2 19:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

What the hell does this mean?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:44, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It means you're so interested in grinding that you don't think about the locals that have to deal with your trail of dead orcs. --NE2 20:37, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I preferred Skuls.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:40, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Woah, WTF "consensus was wrong"? It is a huge problem for an editor to believe that. Wikipdia is built on consensus, consensus cannot be wrong, you can disagree with consensus, but it is not "wrong" it just is. CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:41, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

A consensus that says "let banned editors continue trolling" is wrong.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:44, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

If you really wish to let messages from confirmed banned users remain on your own talk page, that is well within your rights (though some rules-sticklers are having a kitty over that at the moment at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Banning Policy. But this person or persons have been trolling Ryulong for quite awhile it appears, and does not appear to be posting to your page for any reason other than to exacerbate the situation. Tarc (talk) 19:34, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

User:Ryulong should be barred from edit warring an editor on their own talk page, he does this consistently and it is clearly a problem. When an editor restores content on their own page it should be protected as part of the latitude we give to users on their own talk page. If someone wants to post useful information on my talk page, I don't give a shit if they are banned (and yes this is an invitation to do so, useful information is always good). CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't useful. It was trolling.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:37, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

That's not really for you to decide, is it?CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:53, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It's clear that that's the case from the other editors here who know more than you do. And frankly, you need to get over this debacle already.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:44, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

This isn't about me or how I might feel about you as an editor. It's about you thinking you are better than everyone else and thinking that you can control them. CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:53, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

No, this is about enforcing Wikipedia policy and not giving trolls the time of day.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I'll reiterate, since it's not getting through: a banned user is following editors with whom Ryulong disagrees and using them to get at Ryulong. I'm sure they're having a nice laugh at your expense. While Ryulong shouldn't re-revert if you re-post, you should not be feeding trolls. Acroterion (talk) 19:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

That's exactly what is happening, but it's Ryulong feeding the trolls and annoying legitimate users along the way. If he would just refrain from reverting any posts on any user's talk page (other than his own), this situation would be avoided. — X96lee15 (talk) 20:05, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The only way I'm feeding the trolls is because you guys feel that I'm somehow censoring someone who isn't allowed to edit here anymore.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:07, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

@X96lee15: Perhaps Ryulong would be willing to agree not to revert on your talk page if you agree to be vigilant in removing socks harassing him. Ryulong is the victim of harassment and you are essentially putting the blame on him. Despite your disagreements with him, you should be opposing the harassing behavior and not his efforts to get rid of it.--v/r - TP 20:41, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The issue with Ryulong, other editors and my talk page is long over, but I still place 100% of the blame on him. HE is the one that continued to "feed the trolls" by acknowledging them and reverting their edits on my talk page. Most of the posts didn't even mention him. There was no harassment towards him; only harassment was on me, having to see that little talk page indicator change. He was reverting edits that weren't proven to be by socks. Had he never made reverts to my talk page, the situation would have been over in an hour, instead of weeks.

IMO, he believes he owns every article/page on Wikipedia and he has the right to do whatever he wants. The only reason he has so many trolls is that he violates the 3RR so often that editors know they can get under his skin. The root cause of all this is Ryulong violating the 3RR for his loose definition of vandalism. A preventative action would be to put a 1RR sanction on him, in my opinion. — X96lee15 (talk) 04:01, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you have a PhD in harassment and get to decide when or when not Ryulong is being harassed? You don't. It ain't your talk page, it's WMFs. And the WMF has determined that Wikipedia isn't to be used for harassment. You want Ryulong not to revert? Find, take responsibility to do it yourself.--v/r - TP 04:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

You can check the snark at the door. I can't believe I'm even discussing this, since my instance of this was 6 months ago. The only reason I chimed in was because I had a similar encounter with Ryulong to what was being discussed here. I just wanted to show there's a pattern. Ryulong brings all this upon himself. — X96lee15 (talk) 04:32, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I should hope there is a pattern. Since policy, WP:BAN, says to revert socks and banned editors and WP:HARASS says to remove harassment. So, a pattern is a good thing. The real question is why other editors arn't displaying the same pattern of appropriate behavior. That's what truly concerns me. Why are there a pattern of editors showing apathy toward harassment?--v/r - TP 04:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

What policy states on this matter

I'm completely uninvolved in this dispute, but I've interacted with both users before and so came across it. I feel that this issue is important enough that should I point out that the following actions are listed under WP:NOT3RR:

• "Reverting edits to pages in your own user space, so long as you are respecting the user page guidelines."
• "Reverting actions performed by banned users, and sockpuppets of banned and blocked users."

At first glance, it seems that there's a contradiction here in this particular type of case, and hence that this is something that should be resolved via consensus alone. However, the second listed point is unequivocal, while the first one has an exception. WP:POLEMIC states the following: "Polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities (these are generally considered divisive and removed, and reintroducing them is often considered disruptive)." Thus, it is clear that removing a banned user's post from another user's talk page is exempt per that list, while adding it back is not - no matter who removes it or adds it back. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 23:10, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

If a troll (banned user or otherwise) posts something that is solely a personal attack against user A, but on user B's talk page, and then user A deletes it, and then user B restores it, it is reasonable to assume that user B is endorsing that personal attack. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:53, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

And the respecting the user page guidelines is covered by this section of those guidelines:

Statements or pages that seem to advocate, encourage, or condone these behaviors:[Note 1] vandalism, copyright violation, edit warring, harassment, privacy breach, defamation, and acts of violence (includes all forms of violence but not mere statements of support for controversial groups or regimes that some may interpret as an encouragement of violence).

These may be removed, redacted or collapsed by any user to avoid the appearance of acceptability...

__ E L A Q U E A T E 00:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Suppose Editor A sees a sock of a long term vandal post on Editor B's talk. Editor A reverts the sock. Editor B reverts him. Editor A reverts it back. Editor A, for all intents and purposes, is now reverting Editor B, not the sock. And if Editor B reverts back, he too is not reverting the sock, but reverting Editor A. Assuming A and B are not socks themselves, if they go back and forth more than 3 times like this they are perfectly eligible for a block, as 3RRNO only covers the first revert, the one that Editor A has done on the sock. KonveyorBelt 01:32, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • @User:Konveyor Belt: That's actually a good argument, but Editor B's actions may fall under WP:MEAT in this case and the exemption may thus still apply: "Sanctions have been applied to editors of longer standing who have not, in the opinion of Wikipedia's administrative bodies, consistently exercised independent judgement." Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 01:53, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
    • But once Editor B reverts Editor A, I do not think he endorses the sock's opinion, he is merely reverting A. another example, suppose I post somewhere that I believe in Satanism. And Editor 1 reverts it believeing it to be unsuitable for an encylcopedia. An editor 2 reverts. Editor 2 reverting it does not mean in anyway that he or she is a Satanist or would like to join me in becoming one (not that I am). It simply means he was reverting Editor A's removal of my post. KonveyorBelt 02:05, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
      • @User:Konveyor Belt: Would you mind not using highly offensive examples like that in discussions with me (and preferably in general too)? Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 02:11, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
      • I don't quite see your "merely"'s holding in all cases. If the sock put up a clearly offensive physical threat or clear vandalism and B reverted it back, then I don't think Editor A would be blocked for reverting it multiple times while they waited for an admin to show up, would they? That's not how we treat copyright/BLP violations or other vandalism. If an editor restores material taken down for dodgy reasons, it's an implication they at least think it's not harmful. If Editor B restored a talk page comment that said "Let's burn down this house at this address tomorrow", they couldn't really say, "I didn't write the original comment" without any repercussion, could they? __ E L A Q U E A T E 02:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
        • I think if it's material that's otherwise fine except for the sole issue that it comes from a banned user, then you can revert the sock but generally not an editor who re-adds it. If it's material that wouldn't be considered acceptable on other WP:NOT3RR grounds outside of socking, then it should be removable regardless of who's adding or re-adding the material. Otherwise it's a weird loophole of keeping usually-unallowed harmful material because the authorship of the comment is murky.__ E L A Q U E A T E 02:35, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

A consensus that says "let banned editors continue trolling" is wrong. --User:Ryulong

The OP of this section has been informed, repeatedly, that he is arguing against policy. Policy is clear. CombatWombat42 is strongly advised to drop the stick. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:48, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Some troll out there is very happy about how this discussion is going, please don't feed the trolls. Chillum 22:42, 27 August 2014 (UTC) In this [39] edit, A user said "consensus..is wrong", Do we really want a user here that believes they are so much better than consensus? CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:58, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Don't split this shit off. And get off of my case. You have had it out for me ever since I made the mistake of suspecting sockpuppetry in March. I want a two-way IBAN from CombatWombat so I don't have to deal with this shit anymore.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC) (ec)Some editors no doubt feel that the world is flat, but that opinion also is not an incident requiring administrator action. — Kralizec! (talk) 20:04, 27 August 2014 (UTC) The difference between editors believing the world is flat and editors believing they are above consensus is that the former only effects their ability to properly edit geography related articles, the latter effects their ability to work within the community. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC) The fact that I disagree with an old consensus about user behavior doesn't mean shit about my ability to work on this site as a whole.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC) The consensus was wrong. The consensus was about Ryulong requesting protection for someone else's talk page. Ryulong cannot do that. However, individual editors (with the exception of Jimbo's per policy) do not have the right to allow banned editors to edit their talk page - especially to harass other users. The fact that you, CombatWombat42, are supporting harassment of a user is simply appalling and I think it would be appropriate for you to archive this section yourself.--v/r - TP 20:19, 27 August 2014 (UTC) There was a consensus here on ANI a few months ago about a serial IP harasser who was doing more or less the same thing. While the harassment in that case was more clear-cut, the consensus was that restoring such material placed by banned users was an implicit endorsement of abusive behavior, and was sanctionable. I'll look up the reference. Acroterion (talk) 20:23, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Here it is [40]. That case was more extreme, but the effect is the same. Acroterion (talk) 20:29, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Consensus cannot be wrong, your interpretation of it can be, it can change, but approaching the Wikipedia with the opinion that you are better that consensus is a fatal flaw. The only way Wikipedia works is consensus and Ryulong saying it is wrong his putting himself above it. If he wants to change his words to "Consensus changed" or "You are interpreting consensus differently than I", I will happily drop the issue, but as it stands that is about the most arrogant and least helpful thing someone could say. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:27, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Let me disagree with a consensus that negatively affected me FFS.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:30, 27 August 2014 (UTC) I'm shocked that you are persisting, CombatWombat42. You really need to stop this road you are heading down right now because it dead-ends pretty harshly for you. Harassment is not allowed on Wikipedia - editors have no right, authority, or immunity to restore harassment to their user page. The only appropriate consensus that developed off of that thread you linked is that Ryulong may not request protection of someone else's talk page against their wishes.--v/r - TP 20:34, 27 August 2014 (UTC) What road? I have been very clear that I don't think it is ok for anyone to think that "consensus can be wrong", for the third time, you can disagree with consensus, or you can interpret it differently, it cannot be wrong. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Yes, it can be. A small consensus of ~10 editors does not override long standing English Wikipedia policy. Period dot. A local consensus can interpret policy but it cannot be in direct opposition to policy. What you are saying the consensus says, is in direct opposition to policy.--v/r - TP 20:43, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Where do "long standing English Wikipedia policy"'s come from? CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Through large consensus and community practice. Can you show us a community consensus of policy-establishing proportions saying that harassment is allowed when a user protects it on their talk page?--v/r - TP 20:58, 27 August 2014 (UTC) So you would say that "consensus" Is Wikipedia's "constitution" as it were? Consensus is the thing from which all other things (policy, practice) comes from? CombatWombat42 (talk) 21:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Start here WP:CONEXCEPT, Then look at here Wikimedia Foundation policies, then move to Harassing and Abusing Others.__ E L A Q U E A T E 21:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC) What decides what "harassment and abusing others" is? CombatWombat42 (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2014 (UTC) In that scenario, the Foundation. But ArbCom decisions can trump local consensus too. This has Any user, including an administrator using administrative powers, may remove or otherwise defeat attempts at harassment of a user. This includes harassment directed at the user themselves. and Wikipedia users, especially administrators, will not permit a user under attack to be isolated, but will support them. This may include reverting harassing edits, protecting or deleting pages, blocking users, or taking other appropriate action. in their statements of principle. __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:29, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Can you point me to an example of the foundation taking unilateral action in stopping harassment? Administrators have their powers through consensus. CombatWombat42 (talk) 21:36, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Yes, if an admin takes an action you don't like, you can see if there's a consensus to remove their powers or reverse the decision. And the same for other editors. If an admin, or an editor, believes a policy or guideline represents the stronger, more stable consensus than a local consensus, they're not necessarily acting against consensus as a concept. If editors are re-posting comments that are seen by enough editors to be harassment, then this guideline seems relevant. According to it, harassment is one of the situations where editors don't have the traditional leeway over content they usually have. This is, of course, from a consensus that users will use their talk pages within these guidelines.__ E L A Q U E A T E 22:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Seems like we agree that consensus is one of the most important things for Wikipedia, I take it a step further and say it is the only thing that gives any policy on Wikipedia power. From that I say when an editor is willing to say "consensus..is wrong" that there is something fundamentally wrong with that editors attitude and it should be examined by the community. Obviously in this specific situation the facts indicate that Ryulong probably meant something between "consensus changed" and "the consensus in that situation was to limited to be effective" but he hasn't said that which makes me concerned he still believes he can over-ride consensus because "consensus..is wrong"CombatWombat42 (talk) 23:00, 27 August 2014 (UTC) He has never once said "he...believes he can over-ride consensus". Not once. It is your, and only your, selective reading of his comment that has led you, and only you, to that conclusion. Ryulong does not owe you anything based on your falsely premised and out of context selective reading and accusation. CombatWombat42, will you please assure me that you have no intention of ever placing an image of a penis on the White House article?--v/r - TP 23:04, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Of course I inferred that, we all infer things every day its how human works. What were you doing when you threaten to block me here: "You really need to stop this road you are heading down right now because it dead-ends pretty harshly for you. Harassment is not allowed on Wikipedia". You were inferring I was or am doing something (I'm really not sure what) that is block-able. Admittedly it appears that you do not read it that way, but even Ryulong has not claimed otherwise. I have asked for clarification numous times and made it clear I would drop it if Ryulong told me I was wrong. CombatWombat42 (talk) 23:12, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Quoting A consensus that says "let banned editors continue trolling" is wrong. as "consensus..is wrong" is patently misleading. It would be like someone quoting I would drop it if Ryulong told me I was wrong. as CombatWombat42 said "I was wrong". You are clearly misrepresenting the words of another editor, and more than one editor has pointed this out to you.__ E L A Q U E A T E 23:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Ooh. or as bad as quoting You were inferring I was or am doing something (I'm really not sure what) that is block-able. as CombatWombat42 said "I...am doing something...block-able".__ E L A Q U E A T E 23:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC) I have absolutely no problem with you disagreeing with it, say that "I disagree with that consensus", I have a problem with you saying it is wrong when the only frame of reference we have on Wikipedia is consensus. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC) I am even OK with you saying "That consensus was too limited in scope", as TParis pointed out above consensus does scale. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:52, 27 August 2014 (UTC) TParis, I have not said anything about the correctness of Ryulong's actions in this thread when it comes to removing supposed trolls comments on another talk page articles. I have stated very clearly, in a separate section " Do we really want a user here that believes they are so much better than consensus?", No one has addressed that question. I created it as a seperate section for a reason. Ryulong added it as a sub section of the other argument for some reason, not wanting to argue about details I left it as it was, but it clearly confused you see this [41]. CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC) That's a red herring. Your argument is an argument from authority fallacy. Just because a few editors said it under the guise of consensus doesn't make it right. It only makes it a consensus. We've already established that it is a local and weak consensus as well. Your final logical error is Fallacy of composition: Just because Ryulong disputes this local consensus doesn't mean he disputes all consensus. Ryulong has said nothing about consensus in general, he specifically regarded that consensus, and he is correct. I dont know why I dont just take my own advice and ignore CombatWombat42.--v/r - TP 22:34, 27 August 2014 (UTC) My problem is not Ryulong having a problem with that consensus, my problem is how he said it and that it speaks to a pattern of behavior. He didn't say "that consensus was too limited to be of value" or "that consensus changed" he said "consensus..is wrong" implying that he had the right to over-ride consensus, something I obviously disagree with. CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:53, 27 August 2014 (UTC) "my problem is how he said it" Great, so you are causing all of this drama because you refuse to read his comment in the proper context? I see.--v/r - TP 22:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC) "and that it speaks to a pattern of behavior"..."because you refuse to read his comment in the proper context?" CombatWombat42 (talk) 23:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC) Banned users are not allowed to edit, and their posts are removable on-sight regardless of their alleged quality. That's an absolute for articles and talk pages of articles and such. There's a bit more flexibility where user talk pages are concerned. I've had a number of editors delete trolling from my talk page. Sometimes I'll put it back if it's particularly amusing or useful. It's technically OK to delete banned editors' comments from someone else's talk page. However, if that user doesn't want them deleted, then it's best not to delete them. A better option may be to add a posting rather than deleting one, pointing out that the given poster is a banned user. If the user doesn't want to protect his talk page from banned users, it's not worth edit-warring over. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC) I archived this section and CombatWombat42 chose to restore it to argue a position that has been repeatedly rebuffed with policy. There is nothing left to discuss, I recommend an uninvolved admin close this and the rest of us ignore CombatWombat42's pointless arguing.--v/r - TP 22:25, 27 August 2014 (UTC) As noted earlier, there is a similar "banned means banned" vs. "it's not your place to police another user's talk page" that I'm involved in at the moment. In principle, I'd say that it is not right for someone to continuously remove a comment against the wishes of the talk page owner, but in this specific situation the comment was so unhelpful and so blatantly a troll that it would've been nice if everyone would've agreed that a nose-tweaking personal attack against Ryulong really added nothing but rancor to the situation. If the person had posted something even vaguely constructive or important, then that is where I am of the "to hell with banned means banned" opinion. Tarc (talk) 23:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Those who support Ryulong's edit warring: how would you like it if two people decided to carry out an edit war on your talk page? At the very least, I'd quickly learn to disregard the 'new messages' banner when in the middle of something. --NE2 00:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

PS: Ryulong clearly started it all by wearing a short skirt making this rubbish revert. --NE2 00:44, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

PPS: there's no consensus on what policy says, despite The Bushranger's official-looking notice. --NE2 03:08, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Drop the fucking stick already.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:49, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

And the current "official-looking notice" (and really, you don't know that the hatting template simply looks that way?) is that repeatedly extending and commenting on closed threads is disruptive. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Putting aside the banned user stuff, Ryulong's still in the wrong

[42] is completely at odds with Wikipedia:Don't restore removed comments. I doubt this is the first time Ryulong's pulled this. --NE2 03:12, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I felt insulted that my message was removed after ViperSnake had simply given me basic template warnings over stuff that could have been handled on the article talk page and I wished to engage in a discussion with him regarding article content on his page. Also it seems you've been told to drop the stick already.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Feeling insulted is not a reason to repeat your own comment on someone's talk page after they've removed it, per WP:OWNTALK. You were wrong on that specific edit. Other users should reconsider whether they should have restored poison-intended messages. The banned user was the creator of this mess and was maliciously wrong and deliberately hurtful in a way that no one else here was. The people your stalker targeted were victims too. Fighting each other over how you each responded to directed trolling helps no one. __ E L A Q U E A T E 05:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Irrelevant really because I only made one restoration of the thread after which there was a civil discussion on my own user talk.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:11, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Only doing it once just means you were only wrong once. And you say it worked out fine? Except the user you had a civil discussion with still started this whole ANI thread. I understand what you were feeling when you did it, but it's an easily avoidable wrong that irritates people and makes it harder for them to see where you're right about other things.__ E L A Q U E A T E 05:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

This thread was started because of a banned troll. I was wrong for reverting my own comment but this shit has gone on longer than necessary.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

It was wrong. It was not so wrong that anything needs to be done about it. NE2 drop the stick and walk away now please. Chillum 04:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alleged Censorship of User Page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Attempted Direct Resolution with User: I attempted to resolve this issue through RHaworth's user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RHaworth, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:RHaworth#Refusal_to_Cite_Wikipedia_Policy, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:RHaworth#Censorship

This administrator has a picture on his userpage which seems to promote or idolize the abuse of new members: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RHaworth#mediaviewer/File:Charlie_210.jpg

Change in Question RHaworth made this change to my user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:JaysonSunshine&diff=623081356&oldid=623081254

I believe he made this change because he didn't like the specific content, which is a form of censorship.

Nature of Content Deleted The fundamental conclusion of my article: "As the modern world continues to move away from the less sound methodology of relying on our ancestors, i.e. those human being who were simply born before us without access to the tremendous collection of accumulated scientific knowledge, those that believe in and understand the scientific process need to continue to research socially significant issues and have the ethical courage to present the conclusions reached to an often less-informed general public that may often attack those findings and condemn the scientific approach to existence."

Wikipedia cannot exist without a general interest in knowledge and an acceptance of diversity in user perspectives.

Usage of User Space "Besides communication, other legitimate uses of user space include (but are not limited to): ... Personal writings suitable within the Wikipedia community Non-article Wikipedia material such as reasonable Wikipedia humor, essays and perspectives, personal philosophy, comments on Wikipedia matters, Disclosures of important matters such as absences or self-corrections that you would like other editors to know about, etc."

My article is an "essay and perspective". Further it is a deep part of my "personal philosophy" of scientific investigation and freedom from censorship. These goals align with the goals of Wikipedia. The primary source from my article is linked on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rind_et_al._controversy

"Traditionally Wikipedia offers wide latitude to users to manage their user space as they see fit." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:User_pages#Ownership_and_editing_of_user_pages

"(Purely content policies such as original research, neutral point of view etc., generally do not, unless the material is moved into mainspace.)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:User_pages#Ownership_and_editing_of_user_pages

Editing of User Pages This change was made shorty after this conflict arose: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:User_pages&diff=622125546&oldid=618867237 I have requested he revert the changes but he has not complied.

RHaworth did not notify me of his proposed changed to my user page. RHaworth has not claimed immediate action was needed or why immediate action would have been needed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:User_pages "Wikipedia policies concerning the content of pages can and generally do apply to user pages, and users must observe these policies. Users believed to be in violation of these policies should first be advised on their talk page using Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. I noticed that your user page may not meet Wikipedia's user page guideline. If you believe that your user page does not violate our guideline, please leave a note on this page. Alternatively you may add {{Db-userreq}} to the top of the page in question and an administrator will delete it, or you can simply edit the page so that it meets Wikipedia's user page guideline. Thank you. when immediate action is not otherwise necessary."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:User_pages "In general, it is usual to avoid substantially editing another's user and user talk pages other than where it is likely edits are expected and/or will be helpful. If unsure, ask. If a user asks you not to edit their user pages, it is sensible to respect their request (although a user cannot avoid administrator attention or appropriate project notices and communications by merely demanding their talk page is not posted to)."

RHaworth's defense of removal of content Original reasons given along with edits lack any policy justification, including 1 - "freeloading", 2 - "this is not the place to publish your essays", and 3 - " Wikpedia is not for essays". [43] Later offered reasons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOR It does appear this page target user pages. There is not a single usage of 'user' in the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:U5#U5. It is not true that I have "made few or no edits outside of namespace". I have ~92 edits since 2009. One possible metric for what constitutes a 'few' edits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Statistics. 732,500,848 total edits, 22,299,072 users, giving an average number of edits per user at 32.8. Another possibility: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editing_frequency. Of those users in 2008 that had at least one edit, 2021613 users, only 72119 had more than 100 edits, or 3.6%. Therefore, it seems 92 edits is much more than a few, and the cited policy does not apply.

Desired remedy: 1 - Removal of RHaworth's edits to my user page. 2 - Review of RHaworth's past behavior for any patterns of similar abuse (There are several user accounts with insulting variants of RHaworth's user name, which may indicate these people were merely being immature, or perhaps that they felt mistreated by RHaworth: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=Rhaworth&group=&limit=50, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=RHaworth&group=&limit=50) 3 - Consideration of whether or not RHwaroth's behavior in this incident--censorship of a user page, lack of notification of user of proposed changed to user page, original justification failing to include citations to Wikipedia policy, proposed justifications which appears to be post hoc and non-applicable for behavior--deviate sufficiently from Wikipedia policy to allow user to continue being an administrator on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaysonSunshine (talk • contribs) 01:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Your essay has nothing to do with Wikipedia. Support removal. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:33, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Agree generally with Neil, but the full protection of your user page I think to be a bit much. No one else but you and him edited that page, and it is clear that he protected it to preserve his version. KonveyorBelt 01:43, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I think that both parties to this dispute should calm down. First, User:JaysonSunshine should have read the boomerang essay before complaining about the removal of a non-Wikipedia-related essay from his user page. The philosophical (possibly libertarian) worldview of the OP does not make the essay appropriate for Wikipedia, even if he thinks that it does. Also, the "censorship" label was, like most uses of the word "censorship" in Wikipedia, just wrong. For every valid use of the word "censorship" in Wikipedia, there must be five or ten misuses of the word in content disputes. Second, User:RHaworth used poor administrative judgment in imposing full protection on a user's own user page, because, as an edit warrior, he had become involved. Both editors were close to 3RR, but then one of them chose to use an admin tool rather than to seek dispute resolution. Both of you: Back off and stop edit warring. The essay was indeed provocative and out of line, but using page protection by an edit warrior who was an admin was poor judgment. (I haven't reviewed his record as an administrator, and won't call it abuse, only poor judgment.) Remove the page protection but do not restore the essay. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Also, JaysonSunshine, learn to sign your posts. Unsigned claims of “censorship” have even less credibility than signed claims of “censorship”. An unsigned boomerang, however, is still an Australian throwing weapon that still finds its thrower. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Using an admin tool is not the right way to avoid breaching 3RR. You made a mistake (a signed boomerang, maybe). Robert McClenon (talk) 02:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Inappropriate content on a user page is still inappropriate content. If a user put up an ad on their user page and kept on doing it after an admin took it off are you saying the same admin can't lock the page? Seems like a pretty straightforward case to me. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 02:42, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The protection was reasonable under WP:NOT. The alternative would be to block. Chillum 02:52, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

OP Isn't Banned (yet)

The OP has been indeffed. While the page protection was reasonable, the page protection by the admin who was reverting the essay was poor judgment. Also, now, the user's user page states that he has been banned. I see no discussion here of a community ban, and he has not been referred to the ArbCom, and I have no evidence of a ban by User:Jimbo Wales or a ban by the WMF. I think that the notice on the user page should be a block notice rather than a ban notice. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Poor judgement in your opinion. Please see my comment to you above. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:49, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of judgement on protection, it's true that the user is blocked, not banned. I've altered the notice (pray I do not alter it any further). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The editor should have been indefinitely blocked per the WP:Child protect policy alone. Flyer22 (talk) 20:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

And I'm sure that's why he got WP:ArbCom blocked. Flyer22 (talk) 20:44, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Inappropriate conduct by administrator User:The Rambling Man

Summary

Extended content

In summary, the admin User:The Rambling Man has made many uncivil and/or vulgar remarks. The ones I've seen are on the Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates & Wikipedia talk:In the news. Among the worst remarks the user has made towards other users are: "Wow, you need to get back to your happy pills...Your tirade is noted, and reflects nothing other than your own repressed inadequacies I'm afraid...But hey, who needs any kind of good faith when "Jayron" is tearing someone a new hole?" [[44] In closing an ITN nomination discussion: "Post-posting support for RD glad I don't drink or take hallucinogenic drugs while working on Wikipedia!!!!" [45] "You, on the other hand, are doing nothing but whinge. If you actually cared about the things of which you moan, you would actively help do something rather than drop your bitch bomb and expect others to rush around placating you." [46] Wikipedia policy is that an attempt needs to be made to discuss issues with fellow editors. When I raised the issue on his talk page, noting that I would raise the issue here if he didn't stop, it was met with this response (edit summary: "be my guest"): "Go for it, I have little time for this. Whether or not you think Sca's ongoing plastering of links at ITN is right or wrong is entirely irrelevant to me. Of course, taking every single quotation you've dug up entirely out of its context will work wonders for you, I'm sure a visit to ANI will be a marvellous experience for us all. I won't be commenting, or even looking. Congratulations on your attempt to intimidate me. You are no longer welcome to post here, thanks so much." A few minutes later a message box at the top of the user's talk page was changed to: ""Oh dear, we're all feeling a little ... sensitive .... I feel a World's smallest violin coming on...." Shortly after, he deleted the discussion from the talk page...19 minutes after I raised the issue with him. Again, this is coming from an admin!! Besides an egregious violation of Wikipedia:Civility (one of WP's 5 pillars), The Rambling Man's behavior is also in clear violation of WP:Admin#Expectations of adminship. Since the policy in WP:Civility states that users should be blocked for uncivil conduct & personal attacks, I think The Rambling Man should be reprimanded & suggest that he be restricted from editing pages concerning "In the news".

Today's events

Summary: After seeing The Rambling Man make many uncivil remarks & a few personal attacks (detailed in next section) over the past few weeks, I noticed an opportunity in the past 24 hours to raise the issue of uncivil behavior with him.

Extended content

A few weeks ago, I started getting involved in commenting on nominees at Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates. User:The Rambling Man (an admin) is also a regular commenter on nominees. I had noticed this user make several inappropriate comments (documented below) in reply to other editors, which included profanity-laced replies, personal attacks, and other rude/uncivil remarks, but never took any action since they weren't directed at me. Today, another editor began a discussion ("ISIS/Iraq/Syria - ongoing", the revision linked to includes my remarks discussed below) on The Rambling Man's talk page regarding uncivil remarks made in the discussion ISIS/Iraq/Syria - ongoing (might be archived soon) at ITN/C I happened to be mentioned in that, so got a notification. Now, there was a little merit in his critique of User:Sca's actions and that discussion isn't a good example of The Rambling Man's incivility, but he could have handled it better and the remark "Better that you focus on the articles you wish to promote. It's not too difficult." seemed a bit rude. I was going through my watchlist and also noticed that The Rambling Man had just make a remark beginning "Calm the fuck down" in response to another user who also used profanity. Anyways, I had contemplate whether or not to raise this issue and so this seemed like a good opportunity to mention something about his behavior on his talk page (which I placed in the same section Sca started).

Evidence/listing of uncivil remarks/behavior made by The Rambling Man

Summary: List of remarks made by the user which are uncivil. Since I've bolded what I deem to be such behavior, you can skim this section.

Extended content

But the above was far from the worst of The Rambling Man's comments that I've seen. Before I get around to discussing his response to my remark, let me first list what comments The Rambling Man has made which (in my opinion & I think others will agree) amount to personal attacks and uncivil behavior (especially for an admin, which I'll discuss below). Emphasis added and links to ITN/C revision as of 15:08, 27 August 2014: "Calm the fuck down. I asked a simple question, as we have the Ongoing item covering Ukraine, why would we need an additional blurb? It's a reasonable question and doesn't warrant your own Ongoing point-making and swearing (although I can tolerate the latter more than the former)." ([47]) "Post-posting support for RD glad I don't drink or take hallucinogenic drugs while working on Wikipedia!!!!" (in closing this discussion) "Your "insight" is truly fascinating. So what are you going to do next? Hammer on some more, refuse to actively improve things, both or something else?!" (about 4/5ths of way down this discussion) "That's great. Perhaps User:Viriditas can visit there to get his daily dose of lulz rather than stomp around complaining (but doing little else) about the listings at ITN." (from [48]) "A few points for you. I don't have a "role" at ITN. I don't have a "preference for pomoting violence" (I assess consensus and occasionally post items). I do not promote "click-bait". I am not "promoting a fear-based control system". You, on the other hand, are doing nothing but whinge. If you actually cared about the things of which you moan, you would actively help do something rather than drop your bitch bomb and expect others to rush around placating you." (also from [49]) This user also seems to have a gripe about the turnover rate and what is featured in the ITN template. While this may be a topic for discussion, The Rambling Man has carried over this gripe when commenting on/closing nominations at ITN/C. The best example of this is in nominating and handling the Bárðarbunga nomination (the volcano in Iceland that many were concerned would erupt this past week). The purpose of ITN isn't just to feature current events, but that the articles have been updated with the new developments (some recurring events can be added once the respective article is updated without the need for discussion, but a volcano is not such an event). For the nominator's comments, The Rambling Man wrote (emphasis mine): "One for the whiners, something that, if it pans out as expected, will cause billions of euros to the aviation and insurance industries. Of course, the blurb could use work, the article certainly needs some work, but if we want some reasonable turnover to start up again at ITN, this is a start.... (or at least an attempt at one...)" Well, since there hadn't been any major effects from the volcano at that point (no signs of eruption on surface, only a small exclusion zone for air traffic and a small number of nearby villagers had to evacuate) several editors opined that the nomination should wait until (or if) the volcano caused any major issues. The Rambling Man replied to these editors with the following comments: "Comment agreed that waiting is conventional, but there appears to be a groundswell to start including things that aren't that notable or things that may or may not happen, etc. Since this is being widely reported, and is notable, it seems like a good candidate to get the ball rolling on such nouveau stories." Then a couple more "wait" votes and The Rambling Man adds: "Comment you don't think I know all this? The point is that we are being asked from various places and various whining types to get some actual news to the ITN section. This is making news already, impact or not. It's just a tester really to decide if we want to include news that is being widely reported but whose impact may or may not occur." The Rambling Man (talk) 20:03, 23 August 2014 (UTC) User:Jayron32 responded to that remark with: "You know, pretending to "cave in" to people you call "whiners" smacks of disingenuousness; you clearly don't actually think this is a good story to post, and yet you keep pushing it in the face of opposition. This smacks of the WP:POINT behavior we've all come to expect of you: because other people appear to have differing opinions, you float a strawman attempt to concede to those different opinions, and then when your bad-faith suggestion gets shot down, you feel like you were right all along. You can stop this now; it's quite alright to allow people who think differently than you to think differently, and also if decisions get made that you wouldn't have agreed with, you can also allow them to just go along uncommented on, without acting like singular decisions somehow represent a tearing down of the entire society you've come to value, leading to the melodramatic levels of despair over the destruction of some vital part of our community you seem to think every such differing opinion represents to you. Just quit it." --Jayron32 21:26, 23 August 2014 (UTC) And The Rambling Man responds to that with what is in my opinion the most egregious remark that I'm aware of: "Wow, you need to get back to your happy pills. This is an attempt to float an idea to appease some sections of the community that believe we don't do enough to churn ITN, we're not keeping up with news etc. Your tirade is noted, and reflects nothing other than your own repressed inadequacies I'm afraid. (P.S. I clearly do think it's a good story to post as it most likely will disrupt a forthcoming trip I'm intending to make. But hey, who needs any kind of good faith when "Jayron" is tearing someone a new hole?)" The Rambling Man (talk) 21:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC) When a user commented with a link to a news article that the volcano risk level was lowered and there was no sign of eruption, The Rambling Man responded "Good news, my trip may still be on!" I interpret that remark as snarky sarcasm given the user's attitude previously in the discussion.

User's response when I raised issue on his talk page

Summary: After raising the issue with the user, pointing out uncivil behavior, requesting he stop, and that I'd discuss the matter here (ANI), the user made no attempt to address the issues I raised including in his response "Go for it, I have little time for this...I'm sure a visit to ANI will be a marvellous experience for us all. I won't be commenting, or even looking." (edit summary: "be my guest"). The user changed a message box to "Oh dear, we're all feeling a little ... sensitive .... I feel a World's smallest violin coming on...." and deleted the discussion from their userpage just 19 minutes after I raised the issue.

Extended content

I mentioned above that I'd discuss later his response when I raised this issue on his talk page (first/second paragraphs, again see [50]). I noted in my comment that "You need to stop making personal attacks and extremely rude/disrespectful remarks to other users. If not, then I think a review of your behavior needs to be discussed at the Admin noticeboard" (this page). The Rambling Man's response was (emphasis mine): "Go for it, I have little time for this. Whether or not you think Sca's ongoing plastering of links at ITN is right or wrong is entirely irrelevant to me. Of course, taking every single quotation you've dug up entirely out of its context will work wonders for you, I'm sure a visit to ANI will be a marvellous experience for us all. I won't be commenting, or even looking. Congratulations on your attempt to intimidate me. You are no longer welcome to post here, thanks so much." (edit summary: "be my guest") Well, I'll let others judge whether I took "every single quotation...entirely out of its context". While no mention was made of me in the edit summary or change, his next edit (8 minutes later) changed a message box at the top of his talk page from "Standards are falling, I blame the kids" to "Oh dear, we're all feeling a little ... sensitive .... I feel a World's smallest violin coming on...." and 4 minutes later The Rambling Man deleted the discussion with the edit summary "remove various spams, junk, other odds and sods" (19 minutes after I added the comment).

Considerations since user is an admin

Summary: Since user is an admin, he should be held to a higher standard of conduct (addition:see admin conduct & accountability expectations). I note several relevant admin/Wikipedia policies which the user has little regard for, namely WP:Civility. Uncivil comments that prompted my remark to him are a major breach of conduct, but the response when I raised the issues are also a significant breach of admin conduct (no rebuttal while stating "You are no longer welcome to post here, thanks so much." & quick deletion is failure to communicate/address concerns of community).

Extended content

Wikipedia:Administrators#Administrator conduct states: "Administrators are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others." Civility is one of Wikipedia's five pillars, stating: "Stated simply, editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect" and (in Civility#Incivility) "Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness and disrespectful comments...In cases of repeated harassment or egregious personal attacks, then the offender may be blocked. Even a single act of severe incivility could result in a block, such as a single episode of extreme verbal abuse or profanity directed at another contributor, or a threat against another person." Furthermore, From Wikipedia:Administrators#Accountability: "Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct. Administrators who seriously, or repeatedly, act in a problematic manner or have lost the trust or confidence of the community may be sanctioned or have their access removed. In the past, this has happened or been suggested for:" Of the five bulleted reasons, I think The Rambling Man meets two: "Breach of basic policies (attacks, biting/civility, edit warring, privacy, etc.)" "Failure to communicate – this can be either to users (e.g., lack of suitable warnings or explanations of actions), or to concerns of the community (especially when explanations or other serious comments are sought)."

Conclusion/suggested actions

Summary:I think The Rambling Man's behavior is unacceptable of an admin. The user's behavior needs to be examined. As noted above, his actions have been in serious breach of conduct. I suggest that the user should be restricted from editing sub- & talk pages concerning Wikipedia:In the news.

Extended content

In my opinion, the Rambling Man's behavior is absolutely unbefitting of an administrator. Jayron32's comment quoted above alludes to a history of such behavior and there's probably more examples of uncivil behavior from this editor. I think at the very least this user should be reprimanded by other admins (whoever has authority to address such issues) for these remarks, warned not to continue such uncivil conduct, and that this user's activity is monitored to see that he doesn't continue behaving this way. I also think its reasonable to suggest that this user be restricted (given a cooling-off period) from working on any of the In The News pages (namely: Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates & Wikipedia talk:In the news) or updating the ITN template. That said and given this user's lack of interest in discussing matters civilly (Sca's remarks, my comment, Jayron32's remark quoted above, his response to my comment) or positively participating in the Wikipedia community, statements that he'll refuse to participate in important community processes (stating in response to my suggestion of raising the issue here at ANI: "I won't be commenting, or even looking."), and refusal to offer even the slightest rebuttal to my comment, I also think that the removal of administrator status should be discussed.

AHeneen (talk) 03:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

I recognize that you put in a LOT of work to put this together, but you really need to read WP:TLDR because very few people are going to take the time to read all of that. And because this is a volunteer project, if you want folks to care, you need to break it down.--v/r - TP 03:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Recently I visited ITN/C for the first time to comment on the Khmer Rouge tribunal news and I noticed this as well. TheRamblingMan's response was rather blunt, although I did the improvements to the articles based on his comment. At that time as well he had some clearly inappropriate commennts - similar to what the OP has listed above. It certainly felt like ITN/C is not a very welcoming place. However, I do think that ITN/C requires a "tougher" person like TheRamblingMan because some of the candidates are just poor and people tend to vote for sillier things as well - someone has to be strict about it. But there is no need to be rude or use language like that. --Pudeo' 03:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The place to discuss this is probably WP:ADREV. MarnetteD|Talk 03:51, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

@TP. I added a summary section to the beginning & a 1-2 sentence summary to each section. @MarnetteD WP:ADREV states that it is for administrators to request a review of their actions from others. It does not indicate that non-admins can request a review of an admin's conduct. WP:DRN states that "Please refrain from discussing editorial conduct, and remember this noticeboard is for content disputes only." So this seemed like the appropriate place to make my complaint; however, looking through several policy pages, I've learned of the existence of Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct which seems like the most appropriate place for this. I'll leave this here for now, but if others agree, I could add this issue there and possibly close/hide this one (with a link back here & place a link here to the new discussion).AHeneen (talk) 05:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any misuse of admin tools here. What does TRM's admin status have to do with this apparent civility complaint? —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 04:49, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not saying the admin tools have been misused, but the principals of conduct & accountability are also important and relevant to this issue. From the latter section: "Administrators who seriously, or repeatedly, act in a problematic manner...may be sanctioned...In the past, this has happened or been suggested for:...Breach of basic policies (attacks, biting/civility, edit warring, privacy, etc.)...Failure to communicate - this can be either to users (e.g., lack of suitable warnings or explanations of actions), or to concerns of the community (especially when explanations or other serious comments are sought)." I mentioned the first policy (conduct) when I raised this issue on TRM's talk page. Civility's lead states "[it] applies to all editors and all interaction on Wikipedia, including on user and article talk pages, in edit summaries, and in any other discussion with or about fellow Wikipedians." (Note: I did not add the bold to "all").

I think it's important to look at the context of a lot of the above. TRM can certainly be blunt and offensive, but I find he is rarely the one to start it. For instance, the 'Calm the fuck down' comment referred to above was in response to, "For fucks sake, celebrity deaths and sports events breeze through, but huge world-changing events struggle. WTF is wrong with you all, ITN?" which borders on WP:NPA territory, IMHO. TRM's response was not exactly pouring oil on troubled waters, but it wasn't raising the confrontational bar, either. GoldenRing (talk) 05:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• AHeneen I am not trying to discourage the effort you've taken, but knowing TRM well, I suspect all this was not required. TRM takes a lot of effort on various fronts, and I think requesting him to not use words you might consider harsh, should work better than reporting here. He's not infallible. Yet, he does take the effort to correct wrongs when pointed out (and not threatened). Yes, you've told him to stop being rude, but the combination of do this or else sometimes pushes discussions to exactly an area which you wished to avoid. If you feel really wronged (honestly, the diffs you provide don't make me feel so), go for a request for comment. This place won't yield any result with this report. Wifione ^Message 08:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
• Although I don't endorse TRM's use of "vulgar" langauge there is actually no incivility here. GoldenRing has actually hit the nail on the head in that respect. Furthermore using ANi in this could legitimately be seen as an attempt to intimidate. While I see why you might have been offended I think you'll have an extremely hard time getting any traction for punishing any user (admin or not) for this. Civility in the way you (and many other reasonable people) understand it is thoroughly unenforcable on wikipedia. Furthermore crying "admin abuse" when in fact there is no use of TRM's status/tools hurts rather than helps your points--Cailil ^talk 12:34, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

"Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness and disrespectful comments...these often alienate editors and disrupt the project through unproductive stressors and conflict." Furthermore, I'm not crying admin abuse (actions), but pointing out misconduct (interactions). I also don't understand how raising the issue here can be interpreted as an attempt to intimidate. There is an issue--TRM's behavior when dealing with editors he disagrees with--which needs a resolution. After mentioning the issue on TRM's talk page, he refused to discuss the matter & deleted the discussion 19 minutes later. DRN & RfM are only for content disputes, while this doesn't meet the minimum requirement for RfC (that at least 2 users have tried to discuss the matter). So from WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE, ANI is the only place to raise this issue. I don't feel that (or understand how) raising a valid concern (with appropriate evidence) & seeking a means to resolution can be considered intimidation. AHeneen (talk) 04:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not defending TRM's language AHeneen but the fact is that there's no support for such a view of WP:CIVIL (and never has been in my experience) despite your (quite reasonable) reading of it. As you can see here TRM's conduct does not qualify as incivility in the eyes of the community. Indeed I would suggest that there is a world of difference between "rude words" and "being rude to another person". TRM was using rude words - which is not a breach of WP:Civil. As regards conduct issues telling somebody that you don't like their actions/attitude and that you intend to take the matter to ANI has often been seen as an attempt to chill a conversation and gain some kind of leverage. BTW I'm not saying you're doing that - what I'm pointing out is that this is how such actions are generally viewed by the community. And for the record I tend to 100% agree with Jayron's assessment of TRM's conduct but as I said trying to use TRM's admin status against him (in the way you have above) hurts your case rather than helps it--Cailil ^talk 19:42, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) TRM is a good technical admin, and understands the operation of ITN well. I appreciate his strident adherence to principles of article quality, and I do appreciate that he pushes for high quality articles on the main page. That being said, he tends to frequently descend into WP:POINT-making behavior; and on several occasions has shown that he has a hard time dealing with good-faith disagreements. He takes a "My way or the highway" approach to every disagreement, and if someone has a different opinion on a situation that he does, he takes it extremely personally, often descending into hyperbole; acting as though every good faith disagreement represents a major violation of standards, or the end of Wikipedia. I can think of a dispute from a few months ago where a disagreement with Newyorkbrad was taken WAY too far. I don't think TRM needs any formal sanction, but he does need to modify how he interacts with people, ESPECIALLY when there are good-faith differences of opinion; and he has to allow that sometimes his opinion is not always going to be accepted by consensus as a whole, and when that happens, he has to be OK with that. The problem is he rarely is. (post edit conflict comments) Calil raises good points too: TRM has not, to my knowledge, ever misused his status as an admin in any way: he's never used the admin tools in an inappropriate way, or used them (or the threat of them) to win battles with others, so there really is nothing about his status as an admin that needs to be called into question. Certainly, I have had conflicts with him, and I do take exception to the way he interacts with people when he is in a disagreement with them, but there's no issue with his role as an admin vis a vis that role. There's no concern of mine at all that he's using his admin status in anything but appropriate ways. --Jayron32 12:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
• Nonsence! TRM is a hound and a rotter, and he's going to be shot! However, before we proceed to the formality of sentencing the deceased, I mean the defendant, I think we'd all rather enjoy the case of the prosecution! Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 12:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

  for those that are having trouble interpreting Lugnuts post here, see Poe's law. --Jayron32 13:13, 28 August 2014 (UTC) ---- And go and watch this, too. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 13:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC) heh, I got the Blackadder reference straight away, but the Poe is new to me - guess that's my application to Intellectuals 'r' us blackballed again... Doh. Begoon ^talk 16:40, 28 August 2014 (UTC) ---- Yep, Poe's Law was new to me too. Finally learnt something from this encyclopedia! Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 16:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• The evidence of incivility is clear, and TRM should well be admonished for acting in such a manner. ArbCom has repeatedly found that admins must adhere to a higher standard than others, and it appears clear that TRM is not adhering to ArbCom principles here. That noted, there is little that can be done other than note displeasure here, any acts against admins generally require either extensive community discussion or actual review by the Arbitration Committee which has the authority to act in such matters. I suggest you read up on the arbitration processes on Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 13:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

  Admonishment is a meaningless formality. He's already been admonished (that is, we've all told him what he's doing wrong, and how to clean up.) A formal use of same doesn't mean anything. The question is, has been, and always should be "Do we trust this person to use the three admin tools in an appropriate manner" For all of his faults, I cannot find any example of TRM misusing those tools, nor do I see any evidence he would. There are 2 discussions to be had here "Does TRM need to change how he handles conflict and interactions with others" and "Does TRM misuse his admin tools (deletion, blocking, protection). The first is a discussion that needs to be at at WP:RFCU, not here, and I don't see any evidence of the second. ArbCom wouldn't touch this because the community hasn't had the RFCU discussion. And there is no evidence that he is misusing or threatening to misuse his tools here. --Jayron32 14:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

RfC requires that two users have raised the issue with the user in question. Is someone else willing to discuss this issue with TRM and try to resolve it? Several have commented that this has been an issue in the past. Can someone point out the relevant discussions? I don't mind raising the issue at RFCU, but it needs to meet RFCU's minimum requirements first. Also, I have made no accusations of abuse of admin tools. Rather, I have claimed that TRM is not following the conduct & accountability expectations of admins. AHeneen (talk) 04:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• I see no incivility here, at least no more than what is usually thrown around at ITN, and certainly no misuse of admin tools. In fact, I appreciate the bluntness he brings to a process that can frequently be hampered with its own politics. --WaltCip (talk) 16:01, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • If that's normal at ITN; then the atmosphere there has to change to be more constructive. According to WP:IUC rudeness alone is incivility. Besides, what kind of defence is the fact that there's another badly behaving user there? Someone acts bad, you're supposed to act bad too? Especially as a regular of the ITN and administrator you should keep calm. Remember that those threads are read by others too, no one wants to participate in a place like that. --Pudeo' 19:11, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

  The incivility is quite clear. Saying "Oh, heck, they are always incivil at ITN" is not an excuse. You may "appreciate the bluntness" but others of us just see juvenile pottymouth and insulting behavior which would get other users blocked from editing. There should not be different standards of behavior for different editors. Edison (talk) 03:06, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

  The OP is far too long, so perhaps you wouldn't mind posting a couple of diffs showing the "juvenile pottymouth and insulting behavior"? Johnuniq (talk) 03:54, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

EEng and edit warring

I'm a minimal party to this, so I shouldn't issue a block. EEng has been engaged in an edit war and has ownership issues with Phineas Gage. He has greatly expanded the article to where it is a GA candidate. Six editors, ChrisGualtieri, Chiswick Chap, Johnuniq, Tryptofish, Magioladitis and I have said it is time to move on and for EEng to stop (See Talk:Phineas Gage). EEng then went and reverted for 4th time in the past 48 hours. Others editors have had their edits reverted by EEng. This has already been the subject of an ANI discussion that went nowhere. He has also been the subject of a disruptive editing this past month. EEng also resorts to name calling and diatribes. Such as name calling in the two previous discussions at ANI and a recent diatribe on how all the above editors are "hit and run" editors. Issues range from content to style. EEng's style is, as Dicklyon put it (note EEng's style in the diff), "There's no reason for this article to be so excessively idiosyncratic in style". EEng reverted Dicklyon for supporting his fellow "Gnomes and MOS Nazis".

I feel a short-term block is in order unless the disruptive editing and rudeness doesn't stop. I don't want to see EEng topic banned from the article. He is a major contributor and co-author of the only scholarly publications on Phineas Gage. His input is needed in order for the article to become a GA. Bgwhite (talk) 07:27, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• It's an awkward situation because EEng is very skilled and has done a lot of good things, but this may be a case where a person gets used to being right, and is unable to make allowances for others. @EEng: Suppose we are all wrong—what should you do about that? Should you revert us because we can't argue as eloquently as you? Should you persist until we go away because we are obviously misguided? Sorry, but those approaches won't be successful. Please find a way of rationalizing all this in your mind as being our fault, and move on to something else. Johnuniq (talk) 07:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• I protected it for 24 hours, after which I began looking at the history page to see whose edit was the most recent. If this edit be at all typical, we have substantial violations of WP:CITEVAR going on, among other things — people attempting to take the article away from the standardised citation style used by its major author. Let me remind you that not all citation standards use the {{ndash}}, among other things (example), and that the placement of {{shy}} permits the article to be formatted like a professional print publication. In real life, when amateurs tell professionals that they're right and that the professionals are wrong, without solid factual evidence, they get ignored and forced out of the way if necessary. Kindly step aside and stop preventing this professional from permitting this article to be written to a professional standard. Nyttend (talk) 12:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Spectators should know that this is almost entirely about the preferences of certain editors for one form of markup over another -- in most cases, not even affecting the final appearance of the page! -- and who think WP is improved by their going around forcing all articles to conform -- for example, replacing {{ndash}} and {{mdash}} with literals — and – because "that's what editors expect to see" or "templates slow down the servers", which of course is nonsense. Such edits carry blithe edit summaries like "required by MOS" when, of course, MOS says no such thing. (And, of course, it's almost impossible to distinguish — from – from a regular hyphen - when editing.)

This is just the latest in the longrunning campaign, by ChrisGualtieri and others, to teach me a lesson about submitting to the will of the borg. Here's what John Vandenberg had to say about this a year ago: [51]

ChrisGualtieri, you say "someone, clearly not me, needs to reach out and assist in this matter so that this article" - had you and others tried to do so in a peaceful and thoughtful way, you would have more success I am sure. I have had no troubles when I have suggested improvements that bring the article syntax towards greater MOS compliance .. Others have also had successes, large and small, esp. Mirokado. Sometimes two editors need to revert EEng and discuss the issue, after which I have always found him able to accept the desired changes. Not everyone has had the same success, and they cite WP:OWN concerns, but in many of these cases (not all) they have acted like bulls running through this china-shop, doing mass-/automated-'cleanups', without first discussing the issue on the talk page, or doing so in an aggressive fait accompli manner. John Vandenberg ^(chat)

(Bold added by me.) This latest kerfuffle is just more of the same of that.

EEng (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• This EEng guy, sheesh. Hard to fathom sometimes. Anyone might think he had a metal rod stuck in his head. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

:) Here's a joke: Phineas Gage runs into a bar... EEng (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

... unlike: EEng runs into a block... Martinevans123 (talk) 13:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• My issue began when EEng added 487 Template:Shys to the article that did not render one active use. Putting shy and nbsp templates into invisible comments is completely useless. Cite templates should not be using Hyphen and nbsp templates as Bgwhite pointed out. EEng tries to make eloquent arguments, but has repeatedly been unable to comprehend the basic "Shy" template function. The article as I originally found it had every reference broken with a "false referencing" system that is the most complex and inane system I've ever seen. And I'm not just saying that, EEng called it a "hack of hacks", but EEng had effectively modified the appearance of the page to what looks good on his computer. I had less then 20 characters (not words) across the screen when it began. The page was effectively unreadable. While much has been done to improve it. Also... What CITEVAR issue? The biggest change I see is the Macmillan source (one of many) being cited with the year of its publication in the text; it is also the one with the biggest error that EEng is violently opposed to highlighting. Specifically, the one where Macmillan gives the wrong information and says there is a second source that apparently (according to EEng) doesn't exist. There is definitely a content and COI issue here at play, but BGwhite's concern over edit warring and EEng's name calling should be examined. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• When multiple papers by the same author are cited, it's common to add the year of publication e.g.

Jones (1998) discovered this, confirming it in Jones (2001), and giving further data in Jones (2002).

-- because it looks stupid to write

Jones discovered this, confirming it in Jones, and giving further data in Jones.

This is an accepted style on WP, and that you think there's something wrong with it is typical of everything that's happened in the last year.

• My "hack of all hacks" was an experiment to see if existing < ref> machinery could be tricked into putting citations in alphabetical order by author name. I spent considerable time trying to get other editors interested in finding a better way to do it, and I finally abandoned it as too unwieldy. For a year you've been trying to make it look like this some evil thing I did, claiming that "it seems that EEng made the article deliberately difficult to edit."

My discussions with other editors about how I planned to keep others from editing the article by making the markup extremely complicated

Discussion with anther editor regarding the ref formats and figure #s [52] (section Extensively revised): "There are several technical innovations which I am not completely happy with, but I hope others might come along and offer better ways to achieve the same results ... The article is on 160 watchlists and as I said before, I'm hoping someone might be inspired to invent/discover a cleaner way to do these things." Request at Village Pump for better ways to alphabetize refs [53] (sectionControlling order of reflist): "Nasty hack though this technique is I actually feel its advantages outweigh its drawbacks and I'd like to take it live in the article, with the hope that someday a purpose-built facility will become available to make the hack unnecessary. There's only one other editor at Talk:Phineas Gage who's willing to engage this kind of technical issue and I'd be most happy if you'd look over the implementation (in my sandbox) in detail and explore the question with us." Attempts to get other editors to participate [54] "For the moment there's one other editor who engages at all regarding this article, and I'd very much like there to be more" [55] "I'm wondering if you want to work on formatting/cites/technical stuff only (and fine if that's true -- this has been really helpful) or whether you'd like to engage on content as well. I'm kind of tired of being the only editor who actively engages the sources, and then gets accused of ownership!" [56] "I could really use an unbiased eye to comment ... I keep trying to get others involved but can't."

• As for the rest, I refer again to John Vandenberg from last spring ([57], bolding added):

from what I have seen it is User:ChrisGualtieri who is regularly misusing sources, making a mess of both article and the discussion page in the process of the Tendentious editing. While labeling someone a troll is not OK, neither is Chris' misuse of sources, and Chris' bull-in-china-shop approach to 'fixing' this article, which has been going on for months. ... John Vandenberg ^(chat)

EEng (talk) 17:44, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• I thought Phineas Gage was a delisted FA, I'd never realised it had never got there in the first place. Having a done a few edits on it, just from the referencing and prose in the bits I looked at seems it ought to be possible to get up there. I see last year it had an abandoned GA review which seems to have broken down over stability issues. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Off-topic, but somebody once asked at the Graphics workshop, when I was active there, if we could enhance one of the images, so that the words on the bar could be read. I think we were unable to help much, because the detail wasn't there. Begoon ^talk 03:39, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• I've been involved in trying to get editors to solve these disputes for a long time. The problems are not entirely one-sided, in that editors on both "sides" of the dispute have a history of asking for help with dispute resolution, then suddenly losing interest when the resolution process starts to look serious: see, for example Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Phineas Gage.
• There is a comment above that tells the editors who have expressed concern about the situation to "step aside and stop preventing this professional from permitting this article to be written to a professional standard." That comment is not helpful. I'm an experienced Wikipedia editor, and if we are suddenly engaging in "professional" editing, I'd like to know when I'm going to get my paycheck. Until that time, I would suggest that all editors who come to a page in good faith are entitled to be listened to, without being told summarily to step aside.
• About edit warring, EEng was already at 3RR when I reminded him at his talk page: [58]. His page edit subsequent to that time, [59], is, despite the edit summary, in part a 4th revert.
• This dispute is partly about formatting, but also about writing style and how to balance sources, some of which EEng coauthored in real life. The talk page discussion shows numerous editors expressing thoughtful comments, with EEng a minority of one, and not persuading anybody. Even allowing for some stubbornness on both "sides", he is unilaterally impeding progress towards making the page a GA.
• A this point, I would see a block for anything other than 3RR as punitive, rather than preventative, and I doubt that EEng's opinion of his role at the page would change following the block. I share Johnuniq's concern about preventing EEng from making any contributions to a page where he truly does bring expertise about the subject matter.
• It seems to me that the best action would be to topic-ban EEng indefinitely from editing Phineas Gage, but continuing to allow him to edit Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Disappointed to see EEng here again; I think we may need a block at this point. I take John Vandenberg's point with a pinch of salt, as it contains zero diffs. If the problem was one caused by "mass-/automated-'cleanups'" we would not be here for the umpteenth time. This seems more like an OWN problem. Block or a topic ban? I don't know but I do know we cannot go on like this. --John (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I can't read all that. Who is interesting on working on the article? I don't mean who is interested in working on how template xyz displays some picture or transmits some bit of mysterious data to some other template, but who is interested in working on the article to provide information about the subject to a reader? If it is just EEng, you should leave him alone to get on with it and formatting be blowed. If it is genuinely other people too, then EEng needs to lighten up a bit about the formatting (who cares if the line splits midway through supercalifragilisticexpialidocious if nobody else can make out where supercalifragilisticexpialidocious is in the text when editing because of all the templates?). That's it, if anybody wants me, I'll be cutting a baby in half to stop two women arguing over it. Belle (talk) 18:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

There is a significant group of editors who want in good faith to not only improve the page, but to make it a GA. This isn't a question of telling us to leave him alone, but it is a question of EEng needing to lighten up. (No babies were harmed in the posting of this reply.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I would include myself in the group who would like to help bring this article to GA but have been turned away by EEng's OWN and BATTLE behaviour. I would also encourage anyone interested in helping out here to read the last discussion here on this editor's conduct, which was archived without resolution a few weeks ago. I think we do need to take some sort of collective action here. --John (talk) 19:34, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Can we agree on a topic ban? I, for one, support an indefinite topic ban at Phineas Gage, while allowing continued editing at Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
• I would be happy to settle for a topic ban rather than a block. --John (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Question: Tryptofish, you don't seem to have made any response to EEng's explanation for the template formatting - that he was attempting to get "citations in alphabetical order by author name". I'm not saying that's the only problem, nor that his approach to that problem was the best one. But it seems like a reasonable explanation for what he saw as good faith improvements to the article. Do you except that explanation or not? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

It may explain one or two edits, but not the larger issues here. If one goes over the talk page history, for example Talk:Phineas Gage/Archive 6#WP:BRD, the concerns are far more wide-ranging than that. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't arguing against that. I was searching for some admission of (at least some) good faith on the part of EEng. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Martinevans123, via the link given by EEng, the "citations in alphabetical order by author name" attempt was made over a year ago and before any of this mess started. Bgwhite (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I see. So it's not part of "this mess" at all? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:27, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Martinevans123 I don't believe it is part of this mess. But I may have missed something from the loooong talk conversations. Bgwhite (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've been AGF'ing for the longest time. Don't just look at Talk:Phineas Gage/Archive 6#WP:BRD, but also at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive829#Personal attacks and OWN violations. I'm hardly someone who is unsympathetic to him. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I know. The ongoing "discussions" you and EEng have had are the main reason I took that article off my watch list last year. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Then let's be very clear that I have not lacked for AGF. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• A topic ban for EEng and ChrisGualtieri I think are now in order, plus a minimal block for EEng for the latest round of edit warring. This is not just about styling, though placing 487 {{shy}} templates is extremely excessive. Arguments have also been over content and referencing. EEng and Chris are the most vocal. Taking both out of the equation would help any of the other editors get this to GA. Bgwhite (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Does EEng have any explanation for the 487 {{shy}} templates? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Martinevans123 If I understand correctly, EEng states MOS says you can use them (MOS:SHY), but says nothing on how many. If you want to consider style as part of the argument, I'd say judge for your self via this snapshot, before most of the mess started. Bgwhite (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

They look like aids to editing that might be dispensed with after a major article-wide edit had been completed. And invisible to the reader, of course. But I guess some other editors might find them troublesome. (In some future software release I suppose they might be part of user-definable edit skins). Martinevans123 (talk) 22:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Wee note. Another editor found them to be an issue, but I support EEng's use of them in captions and other tight places as per the Template's documentation. In our last discussion and EEng's last edits, he has resolved the vast majority of the issues. SHY appears to trigger on spelling check runs, but overall, they should remain as long as the perform a function. So the previous issue has actually been resolved, but getting to that point was a bit tougher than I would have liked. That's all. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:46, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• I would support a topic ban for both of them at Phineas Gage, but I oppose banning either of them from Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Tryptofish, no offense, but do not blame me or EEng when you caused the mediation to be rejected. That's right you (the filer) caused it to be rejected. EEng felt it was premature and I didn't even get a chance to voice myself. You may mean well, but you certainly have gotten your facts wrong here. I ask that you strike your above comment about that. EEng should not be blocked, there is no reason to block because it'd simply be punitive. ANI is not a place for an RFC/U and it most certainly is not going to help when 5+ people all want this at GA. Tryptofish, you supported much of my changes, I realize my changes were far from perfect - and I'll admit that I was blindsided by all the errors in Macmillan 2000. You know better than anyone else that I also want this article to be GA or FA. EEng reacted with hostility and I have been afraid to try and deal with it since. Sorry if I add my voice to the pile, but I spent 40 hours researching Gage and I tried to work with EEng - but I do not need to be abused. I won't stay in such editing environments. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:17, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually, EEng's being receptive and fixed all the issues I had and then some. I do not think any MOS issue actually remains now. EEng fixed all the issues before this came to ANI with this edit. Why was this brought to ANI anyways? WP:CIVIL? Recently, he's been tense, but not anything outright 'disruptive'. I'm confused. Anyone care to explain why this is open still? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:46, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Here's a recent sample edit. EEng has been fighting for years to keep his idiosyncratic formatting in this article. Use of {{shy}}, {{hyp}} and <p> is eccentric, disliked by other editors, and makes the article very difficult for others to edit. EEng has added this formatting many, many times and is currently at 4rr. He is arrogant and rude if challenged on his weird formatting and long-winded writing style, such that it is very difficult to work with him. Most people just walk away, which has reinforced EEng's feelings of ownership of the article. It's not viable to suggest we can go on like this. --John (talk) 05:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Chris, I feel a need to reply to what you said to me, although it also is becoming clear to me that nothing is going to come of this ANI thread. I can sympathize that you would want to respond to what I said (following what Bgwhite proposed, although subsequent talk separated my comment from his), but turning it back at me is a cheap shot, and I think you know it. Your diff simply shows that I withdrew the request, after seeing that no one besides me was willing to participate. I didn't cause you or anyone else to choose not to participate. You made that choice – and I remember diffs where you, first, came to me at my user talk to ask for my help and, then, were demanding dispute resolution and, later, turned tail when I started the mediation. Also, the reason given by Bgwhite was not related to the attempt at mediation. It was what he called your "most vocal" posture at the talk page. So my advice to you is to take notice of how Bgwhite, coming new to the page, perceived your conduct, and keep it in mind going forward, since undoubtedly this issue will crop up again. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Its interesting to look at the page statistics, EEng (talk · contribs) and ChrisGualtieri (talk · contribs) have between them contributed 81% of the article [60]. Although a couple of editors who've commented here pop in the number of edits, none of them have substantially contributed to the prose and do not appear in the top 10 contributors of text. Their sole contribution appears to be undoing EEng (talk · contribs)'s formatting style to substitute their own preference and its really for no benefit to the article. I dunno guys, there are plenty of really badly formatted articles out there but this isn't one of them. It may be idiosyncratic but it works and it works well - the article looks fantastic in WikiWand. I think some people are forgetting that wikipedia is first and foremost an exercise in writing an encyclopedia. So if your only interest is in formatting it "differently" I would suggest you find something better to do - like writing. BedsBookworm (talk) 12:14, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Bit of a red herring. If your only interest is in making fallacious observations at an administrators' board I would suggest you find something better to do - like writing. --John (talk) 13:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

And so we arrive at the nub of the matter

It's even sadder than you make it sound, BedsBookworm. This bunch isn't changing the (visible) formatting of the article to be more attractive to the reader or conformant to MOS -- for the most part they're changing the internal, invisible markup to other markup that does exactly the same thing.

Are {{shy}}, {{hyp}} and <p> unusual? Yes. So what? Why does everything have to look like what some self-satisfied roving enforcers are used to?

Are these forms really "disliked by other other editors"? It depends on the kind of editor. If you mean "disliked by editors who show no interest in an article other than to make the markup look they way they think it should look, and who, out of nowhere, arrive to assert their personal preferences as 'rules', apply their mindless scripts, then rush off to clutter the edit histories of the next thousand articles (having had zero effect on what the reader sees)", then I guess Yes.

Oh... except sometimes they do affect on what the reader sees. As explained here, there are places where double-newline doesn't create a paragraph break as it usually does, and <p> must be used instead. Yet here's a high-handed edit (edit summary in full: "no need") taking out <p> in the places where there is, in fact, a need -- and thereby breaking the formatting. Then someone else has to take time to fix it. [61]

So the best thing these activities achieve is nothing, but now and then they screw something up. It's like the old joke about selling at a loss but making it up on volume.

If there's a lesson here, it's that Wikipedia needs a rule something like "Style and formatting should be consistent within an article, though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia. Where more than one style is acceptable, editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a good reason" -- except that there already is such a rule, right at the top of each MOS page. (Take a look.)

I've been fond of quoting Beyond My Ken in recent days:

The flip side of "ownership" is the problem of editors who come to an article with a particular agenda, make the changes they want to the page according to their preconceived notions of what should be, and then flit off to their next victim, without ever considering whether the page really needed the change they made, or whether the change improved the article at all. These hit and run editors certainly never take the time to evaluate the article in question, consider what its needs are, and spend the time necessary to improve its quality. Their editing is an off-the-rack, one-size-fits-all proposition, premised on the idea that what improves one article, or one type of article, will automatically improve every other article or type of article. In the grand scheme of things, "ownership" may cause conflicts when two editors take the same degree of interest in a particular article, and disagree with it, but mostly it helps to preserve what is best in an article. On the other hand, hit-and-run editing, including the plague of hit-and-run tagging that's defaced so many Wikipedia articles, is a much more serious problem, because it's more difficult to detect, frequently flies under the flag of the MoS (and therefore is presumed at first blush to be legitimate), and is more widespread. Wikipedians should worry more about those who hit-and-run, and less about those who feel stewardship towards the articles they work so hard on. 03:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

ChrisGualtieri and I have had our serious differences, but at least he takes a longterm interest in the article‍—‌Tryptofish too, of course. John may think this incident has reinforced my "ownership" of the article; I'd like to think it's raised awareness of the cumulative damage done, and the huge amounts of editor time wasted, by (I'll say it again) these self-satisfied roving enforcers. EEng (talk) 05:06, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Email canvassing

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Krish8 is canvassing and abusing Wikipedia email. I don't know this user and never talked to him, I have got 4 emails from him this month, 3 in last 3 days. They are mentioning this article. I think they are sending such emails to many other users too. --Tito☸Dutta 12:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Since this is a sockpuppet account, I don't think there would be any harm in removing access to the e-mail function. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:06, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

refferences

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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some refferences(like in Newar caste system) are unbelievable,unreliable and based on misunderstanding factors.Baoshr (talk) 14:05, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

This isn't an issue for this noticeboard. What you want to do in this case is to open a discussion on the article talk page that explains your concerns with the references, and how you believe the issue should be addressed, so that discussion can take place to reach a consensus on what, if anything, should be done. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Threat?

I checked the history of List of current Home and Away characters earlier and I believe 5summer78 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has made a threat against me here: [62]. I understand that they are not happy with me for undoing their edits, but unfortunately they kept trying to add unsourced information, even after I asked them to provide a source. I hope this was the right place to post this, please point me in the right direction if not. - JuneGloom Talk 16:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Sure looks like one to me. I'd rev-del that edit summary and indef that editor KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 16:53, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

He's blocked. Up to you if you want to report it to the WMF.--v/r - TP 16:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I revdel'ed the edit. While I think it's more than likely a user overreacting, I've contacted the emergency team as a precaution. Current policy encourages you to treat all claims as being serious and that volunteers shouldn't be making the judgement call. Often times these comments are nothing more than empty threats made in anger, but it's something that shouldn't be left to chance. Mike V • Talk 17:21, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for your help. - JuneGloom Talk 15:17, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Cartman810

Cartman810 has been warned on his talk page (and on his previous talk page numerous times to not add copy/pasted content or unsourced content to articles. User is having difficulty understanding this, as indicated by his continued submission of unsourced content and copy/pasted synopses after a final warning. I generally believe that they are here to be constructive, but they have to stop the lazy editing. Examples that follow are a few of the user's contributions, followed by the either directly copy/pasted or closely paraphrased content.

"The trio discover a hidden portal to the inside of Abercrombie's head"

"The trio discover a portal to the inside of Abercrombie's head."

"The kids find a mysterious island in the middle of the school swimming pool."

"The kids discover a mysterious island in the middle of the school swimming pool."

"It's April Fools day and Mitchell is pranking in overdrive."

"It is April Fools' Day and Mitchell is pranking in overdrive."

"Mitchell is bitten by a sick deputy head and every time the school bell rings, he turns into a strict were teacher."

"Mitchell is bitten by the sick deputy head and turns into a strict were-teacher every time the school bell rings"

"Becky's new health snacks provoke a fairy tale figure."

"Becky's healthy snacks provoke an evil fairy tale figure set on making children's teeth rot."

"Becky and Templeton are dragged back to Victorian times."

"When Becky and Templeton are sucked back to Victorian times, Mitchell and Mr Balding try to rescue them."

"When Templeton gets school security guard, he goes mad with power."

"When Templeton becomes security monitor and goes mad with this incredible, all-seeing power, the very existence of Strange Hill is threatened."

These are just a few examples from the user's most recent edit. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:59, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Cartman810 (Myself)

I am Cartman810. I'm adding this on my behalf that I am NOT copy/pasting content from websites. I am not saying this in a rude way but you can't go around accusing me. I try my best to put things into my own words. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cartman810 (talk • contribs) 17:18, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Cartman: This is NOT your own work. Whether you use the "copy-paste" function, or you go through the trouble to press all the letter keys individually on your keyboard: when you copy the work of others, that's not allowed at all. The fact that you actually typed out all of your copying doesn't mean you didn't copy it. Also, the fact that you make inconsequential changes also doesn't mean you didn't copy it. Here's what you should do if you don't want to be accused of copying

1) Read the entire source text.

2) Think about what it means. Internalize it. Try to understand what the author is saying.

3) Put away the source text. Don't look at it (at least for a few minutes). Using your own understanding, summarize or describe what the author is saying in your own words. Check back to make sure you capture the sense of the original source, but your writing should use different words, sentence structure, organization, etc. It should be your own work.

Try that next time. Because what you are doing is plagiarism/copyright violation, and at Wikipedia, we don't do that. --Jayron32 17:42, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Cartman810, your good intentions are not good enough. Your wording is too close to the original. Way too close! You are violating the rule against close paraphrasing. Binksternet (talk) 17:43, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Cartman810, another thing you might consider, is that episode synopses are not limited to one sentence. A quality episode synopsis is between 100-200 words (see WP:TVPLOT). If you were to watch the episode, then summarize the plot on your own, with a beginning, middle, and end, you would probably have more success. If what you're doing is sitting down with the episode loglines in front of you and trying to figure out how to say it differently, you are always going to have this problem. And if you're reading full episode synopses like the ones here and are trying to paraphrase them, again, you're going to have problems. In short, it's very difficult to try to reword something that's already written. For example, a while back I noticed that Barbie: Life in the Dreamhouse contained a lot of lifted one-sentence loglines, which I found impossible to phrase differently because I don't watch the series. I had to watch a ton of those episodes (and believe me, I wasn't happy about that) to be able to write summaries that were fundamentally different. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Wow, Cyphoid, you are devoted. I couldn't even get through a fourth of an episode of Barbie or many of these terrible shows just to form proper ep summaries. You are a heartier editor than I will ever be despite my time here. Nate • (chatter) 23:46, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Mrschimpf Ha, well to be candid, I didn't get through the entire series. I will probably have to finish the job someday though. Goddammit. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 00:10, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I do watch Strange Hill High. I do try and reword it from the episode. But thank you for the advice. Cartman810 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:19, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Handy tip - most listings magazines and sites do not have episode summaries, but "hooks", designed to draw the reader to watch the episode (and not act as a spoiler). We want a proper episode summary, including the outcome of the plot.

• Hook: Fred and Ginger go sunbathing but forget their sun-cream with hilarious results."
• Episode summary: Fred and Ginger go sunbathing but forget their sun-cream. Fred tries to use olive oil, and Ginger tries to use mayonnaise. They are followed home by several stray cats who eat their fish supper. One of the cats proves to be Lady Mitford's pet and they are given a handsome reward!

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:51, 29 August 2014 (UTC).

Wolf Parade - both versions

Hi,

We appear to have two identical versions of the Wolf Parade article in existance,

Was WP:Speedy but we now have an IP removing the tags from the newest version, unfortunatley as I cant prove its the author I feel the need to be cautious over reverting the removal as vandalism. Can someone pop over have a look and delete the one created earlier today thats word for word copy of the original. Amortias (T)(C) 20:18, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Where is the second copy? Vegaswikian (talk) 20:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes good question, where? In Amortias' imagination. --Hooter Jack (talk) 20:35, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

This is wierd - History of Wolf Parade and History of the other Wolf Parade. Ahhh, got it. The second link is using special characters for the e. Ravensfire (talk) 20:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

As above, also i think Hooter Jack is a bit miffed about me requesting WP:Speedy on a page he recreated a matter of seconds after it was speedied with just a single line saying it shouldnt be deleted. Im not sure it hits WP:NPA just yet but please keep inappropriate comments off Wikipeida. Amortias (T)(C) 20:42, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The first version is at Wolf Parade. The second version is at Wolf Paradе. (Note that this second version is technically at [[Wolf Parad%D0%B5]]. The use of this hidden character must be assumed to be a sure sign of vandalism, as does the number of WP:SPA accounts popping up to protect it. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Wolf Paradе (the one with the mystery character) has been deleted. Now we just need to deal with the vandals who created and supported it. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Think that'l be an admin job as the revision history has been removed as well. Amortias (T)(C) 20:49, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

They appear to be on it. Situation managed. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:52, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Three vandal accounts and an IP blocked, all User:Evlekis socks. NawlinWiki (talk) 20:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

In which case i'll go sit by the edit filter and wait for him to spam it with NawlinWiki and Amortias are insert colorful expletives again. Amortias (T)(C) 20:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I believe you and NewlinWiki know exactly what you both are. --No Spam Please (talk) 21:50, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

And a block for the above please. Amortias (T)(C) 21:55, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

They blocked that sock faster than you can sing, "Spam, Spam, Wonderful Spam..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:09, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

IP editor continuing to blank and redirect pages

This IP contributor is continuing to blank and redirect pages and I'm not sure exactly where to go to address this. I asked them about this and they gave me this single line reply of I redirect these pages because these sharks are no longer valid species. which I think is not a good reason to be blanking and redirecting pages. I reverted some but then they reverted me and I didn't want to revert anymore so I thought I would come here. Thanks. Tutelary (talk) 23:08, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Given the complete lack of talk page participation and meaningful edits I am so tempted to hit mass rollback--but I'd rather hear from a couple of shark experts first. Kelapstick, you finally finished watching Sharknado II, right? Please weigh in. Tutelary, consider dropping a note on the talk page of the project. Drmies (talk) 23:30, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Even if the user is correct, which they appear to be, (and Compagno is the authority on all things shark) then the correct approach is a merge. For example Cephaloscyllium circulopullum has more information than Sarawak pygmy swellshark.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:34, 29 August 2014 (UTC).

Persisting disruptive editing despite dispute resolution

I have been contributing to the "Barlas" clan page on Wikipedia for years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlas Recently, an editor named nawabmalhi added contentious assertions to the page - perhaps because they support the contentious assertions made by the founder of his religion, as evidenced by comments made on his page by other editors on other similar matters. In my case he added the vague word "Persianized" to the "Turco-Mongol" ethnic heritage of the Barlas, because the founder of his religion claimed to be Barlas and claimed to be "Persianized" which was a highly contentious claim then, and now. It simply is untrue. The editor used a marginal book on the Persians in support of this assertion. This editor has also changed the description of the Barlas empire from "Central Asia" to "Greater Persia." This is like calling present day France a "Roman Province." Additionally, he threatened me and while essentially vandalizing himself accused me of such. I took this to dispute resolution and here was the result after an over 7000 word discourse (included at the end of my request):

WP:TLDR

Proposed solution[edit] I think the best solution I can prose, with the evidence presented here, is that the existing wording of the article remains. Unless I see any decisive evidence (as opposed toWP:SYNTH and sources failing WP:RS, I will close this shortly. --Mdann52talk to me! 06:03, 9 August 2014 (UTC) @Mdann52 NawabMalhi says "Overall we are in agreement" at the end of his last comment and so I suggest this matter be closed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jebenoyon(talk • contribs) 01:51, 10 August 2014 (UTC) On August 26 nawabmalhi went back on what he had agreed to and again changed the wording of this article, and essentially tried to create the same misleading impression he had tried before, by adding Persia, Persianization and such again in the lines following the ones he had tried to change earlier. Here is the sequence of events: (cur | prev) 22:59, 28 August 2014‎ Jebenoyon (talk | contribs)‎ . . (5,221 bytes) (-2,045)‎ . . (Undid revision 623229312 by Nawabmalhi You were told not to use these type of dubious sources - and you are trying to again mislead - I have a copy of the entire sequence of events and will ask for you banning next) (undo) (cur | prev) 21:39, 28 August 2014‎ Nawabmalhi (talk | contribs)‎ . . (7,266 bytes) (+2,045)‎ . . (Reverted to revision 622943589 by Nawabmalhi: The resolution was not to write all Barlas as persianized in general but to be specific and can be found in The dispute resolution archives. (TW)) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 01:22, 28 August 2014‎ Jebenoyon (talk | contribs)‎ . . (5,221 bytes) (-295)‎ . . (→‎Timurids and Mughals) (undo) (cur | prev) 01:22, 28 August 2014‎ Jebenoyon (talk | contribs)‎ . . (5,516 bytes) (+293)‎ . . (undo) (cur | prev) 01:20, 28 August 2014‎ Jebenoyon (talk | contribs)‎ . . (5,223 bytes) (-2,043)‎ . . (Undid revision 622943589 by Nawabmalhi (talk) - This person was overruled by Wikipedia for wrongly trying to change this page before and now has resorted to trying to do the same another way) (undo) (cur | prev) 22:12, 26 August 2014‎ Nawabmalhi (talk | contribs)‎ . . (7,266 bytes) (+2,043)‎ . . (fixing references) (undo | thank) Last time we went through dispute resolution it took over a week and there was an exchange of over 7000 words, which I am attaching below - clearly this gentleman keeps displaying a pattern of using dubious sources to validate his pre-existing religious beliefs, as you can see from other peoples' comments on his page as well. I don't believe he will stop so I am asking for your help. Jebenoyon (talk) 23:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC) Below is what happened before: as[edit] – Discussion in progress. Filed by Jebenoyon on 23:21, 2 August 2014 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute • Barlas (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved • Jebenoyon (talk • contribs) • nawabmalhi (talk • contribs) Dispute overview I have been contributing to the "Barlas" clan page on Wikipedia for years. Recently, an editor named nawabmalhi has added contentious assertions to the page - perhaps because they support the contentious assertions made by the founder of his religion, as evidenced by comments made on his page by other editors on other similar matters. In my case he has added the vague word "Persianized" to the "Turco-Mongol" ethnic heritage of the Barlas, my people, because the founder of his religion claimed to be Barlas and claimed to be "Persianized" which was a highly contentious claim then, and now. It simply is untrue. The editor has used a marginal book on the Persians in support of this assertion, but you can research this and see this is not a credible assertion. This editor has also changed the description of the Barlas empire from "Central Asia" to "Greater Persia." This is like calling present day France a "Roman Province." Additionally, he has threatened me and while essentially vandalizing himself accused me of such. I think his religious sentiments are interfering with his objectivity so I am bringing this here. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have sent three messages to this editor. he seems to be used to changing things to suit his religious belief and they seem to have had no effect. other people on this page had protested to him earlier too, and on other pages, but, as always, he is undeterred. I believe he is diluting the accuracy of Wikipedia for his personal motives. How do you think we can help? I think you can review the information and it should be pretty easy to see that calling a Turco-Mongol ethnic group, that included Persia in its vast empire, "Persianized" is inaccurate. It is like describing the British as "Indianized." Adding assertions of foreign cultural influence to an ethnically distinct race is not an acceptable or valid practice in any case. As for using "Greater Persia," which may have existed thousands of years earlier, instead of Central Asia, this is self evident. Summary of dispute by nawabmalhi[edit] • I have never claimed that the Barlas tribe is Iranian but only that they are a tribe of Turco-Mongol origin who lived and ruled in Greater Persia and adopted Persian Culture(ie. Mughal Emperors were famous for their Persian poetry). • The fact of the matter is that the Barlas tribe is not just found in Central Asia but also in Iran, Afghanistan,Pakistan, and India. Their are more people who claim descent from the Barlas tribe in Pakistan, India, and Iran (individually) than in all of Central Asia. In Central Asia, Iran and South Asia cannot be included. • All the references currently used in the Barlas article indicate the Barlas as part of the fabric of greater Persia. Even the name of one of the references is "The Persians"! Please see Turko-Persian traditionaswell • Now Greater Persia is not a concept, its a reality. Greater Persia and Persianized are words used and linked countless articles on Wikipedia. • Greater Persia is not based of ethnic homogeneity but instead of a cultural and linguistic identity built through various empires Achaemenids, Parthians, Sassanians,Abbasids(1000-1300)/Buyyids,Ilkhanate, Chagatai Khanate, Samanids, Timurids Safavids,Mughal Empire and Afsharids and the Qajar Empire who all ruled Greater Persia. • The bolded mean ethnically turco-mongol dynasty- notice that all had Persian as their official language and used it in their elite circles. Infact some of them try to distance from their Turic Heritage. • Most of the Barlas tribe did adopt Persian customs, language, religion(Islam), titles and married within the local Persians and later South Asians by mid-14th century. The adoption of native vernaculars by elites in place of Persian started in parts of Central Asia in the 18th century although Persian was used for administrative purposes. • Infact it was the adoption of Persian Culture which distinguished the Barlas from other Turco-Mongols such as the Golden Horde infact the Turco-Mongol clans of Greater Persia helped Kublai Khan( a moderate) defeat Ariq Böke(radical) who wanted the Mongol power to be in Mongolia and did not like adaption to other cultures that were part of the Mongol Empire • @Jebenoyon also mentions something about France and Rome but does not work because the Franks never ruled Rome but still used latin script. Plus France and Western Europe claims to be inheritors of western Civilization which started in Greece. A more valid example would be when Roman empire was near collapse the numerous non-italic New Romans who adopted Roman culture and became emperors: Diocletian - Dalmatian Illyrian Maximian - probably Illyrian or Pannonian Carausius - Menapian Gaul Constantius Chlorus - Moesian or Dacian Galerius - Dacian Severus II - Danubian Maxentius - Danubian and Syrian Constantine I and his sons - Moesian or Dacian list can go on.... • I know this article means alot to @Jebenoyon who is very proud of his Mongol ancestry (I don't think he is a Barlas), but he should set his personal opinion aside instead flaunting allegations and threatening me. The users I have disagreements(which is normal) I have developed very good working relationships with due to specializing in similar areas. • Other then @Jebenoyon own statements/beliefs/opinions what facts or links has he provided that justify his view? --Nawabmalhi (talk) 03:03, 4 August 2014 (UTC) Barlas discussion[edit] Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Hi. I am Mdann52, and am a volenteer here at DRN, however this does not give me any specific powers. Looking into the history of the article, the dispute appears to center around this type of edit. As the material is sourced, the burden of proof is on Nawabmalhi to show that reliable sources use the term as well. Are you able to show this? --Mdann52talk to me! 09:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC) Hi Mdann52,sorry for late reply ,and yes. The word persianized(derived from Persianization) is used in numerous Wikipedia articles and historians and is not a real debate as far as I know. But I have provided reliable external sources pertaining to Turco-Mongols(timurids,Mughals, Qajars etc.)that use it aswell: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Now Greater Persia/Iran is used to indicate the extent of Persian civilization, culture and empires and is best defined by the geographic boundaries of those various empires.If you go onto the Article on Greater Persia/Iran( In the Introduction) you'll find many clear and concise sources which indicate its existent and use in intellectual circles by historians. --Thank You Nawabmalhi (talk) 17:34, 5 August 2014 (UTC) You need to provide a source that uses it in this context; A quick skim read of these shows that none of them appear to use the work in the context that is being discussed; Are you able to provide a source using it that can be used to support your dispute arguement (refering to this particularly, not just the general use of the word?). --Mdann52talk to me! 14:20, 6 August 2014 (UTC) Hi,Mdann52, Please reread my my summary of dispute, Barlas article and reexamine the sources I gave you: Source 1: Talks about the Mongols who ruled Persia and how they became persianized Barlas is part of this group which lived and ruled in Persia. Source 2: This talks of the Timurid(synonymous with Barlas) Babur (also first Mughal emperor) and how a perfect ruler is a persianized and islamicized Turco-Mongol ruler a tribute to the Timurids(Barlas). Source 3: This talks about the Timurid(Barlas) and how persianized they have become, it also mention how Safavids and Qajars allied with Timurids also were persianized. Source 4: This is talking of the mongols who ruled and lived greater Persia the Ilkhanate (Barlas again were part of the Ilkhanate) and later resurrected it through the Timurids which angered many Mongols in th Mongol heartland and rebelled(like Jenoboyon).. read summary dispute for more Source 5: This is again talking about persianized Turks and then mentions 'Timur's persianized Turks' which refers again to the Barlas tribe. (Timur is a patriach of Barlas) it continues to mention Mughals again part of Barlas tribe Source 6: This talks about Timur(leader of Barlas) and how he is heavily persianized as was his empire. Source 7: This mentins the Qajars a turco-mongol tribe with relation with Barlas/Timurids and show the came persianized This I guess is invalid because does not mention Barlas or Turco-Mongols in Persia or Timur. Source 8: This is talking about mongols(mentions specifically Timur)in the Islamic world (look starting near bottom of previous page) and how persianized Turco-Mongol Courts thrived and helped Islam The fact that the Barlas and othe Turco-Mongols are persianized is a fact and has not been a dispute between historian. Alot of users in the last few years have argued against it. --Hope this helpsNawabmalhi (talk) 16:57, 6 August 2014 (UTC) @Jebenoyon: can I have your opinion on these sources please? --Mdann52talk to me! 18:49, 6 August 2014 (UTC) @Mdann52 can you also read this from the Timurid dynasty article on Wikipedia which is written by many senior editors and has large number of total editors again persianization is a fact: The Timurid dynasty (Persian: تیموریان‎), self-designated Gurkānī [1][2][3] (Persian: گوركانى‎), was a Sunni Muslim Persianate[4][5] dynasty of Turco-Mongol lineage[5][6][7][8] that ruled over modern-day Iran, the Caucasus, Mesopotamia, Afghanistan, much of Central Asia, as well as parts of contemporary Pakistan, Syria, India, Anatolia. The dynasty was founded by Timur (Tamerlane) in the 14th century....................... The origin of the Timurid dynasty goes back to the Mongol tribe known as Barlas, who were remnants of the original Mongol army of Genghis Khan.[5][9][10] After the Mongol conquest of Central Asia, the Barlas settled in what is today southern Kazakhstan, from Shymkent to Taraz and Almaty, which then came to be known for a time asMoghulistan – "Land of Mongols" in Persian – and intermingled to a considerable degree with the local Turkic and Turkic-speaking population, so that at the time of Timur's reign the Barlas had become thoroughly Turkicized in terms of language and habits Additionally, by adopting Islam, the Central Asian Turks and Mongols adopted the Persian literary and high culture[11] which had dominated Central Asia since the early days of Islamic influence. Persian literature was instrumental in the assimilation of the Timurid elite to the Perso-Islamic courtly culture.[12]--Nawabmalhi (talk) 00:35, 7 August 2014 (UTC) @Mdann52 can you finally resolve this please?--Nawabmalhi (talk) 19:07, 8 August 2014 (UTC) @Mdann52 Gentlemen I have reviewed the information. The article on the Timurids talks about the effect of "Persianization" on this Turco-Mongol ethnic group, over time, not as being part of their ethnic makeup from the getgo. The portion of the article we are talking about on the Barlas opens up with a description of their ethnic makeup. To start out the description of their ethnicity by calling them "Persianized" is misleading. May I suggest that they could be described as a Turco-Mongol ethnic group, some of whom were LATER CULTURALLY "Persianized." This seems more accurate to me. On another note, I don't think describing central and south Asia as "Greater Persia" is accurate.Jebenoyon (talk) 23:39, 8 August 2014 Mdann52 please advise. The other editor keeps saying not to use Central Asia because the clan was also located in South Asian countries like Iran, India and Pakistan - so then lets say Central and South Asia which actually exist in the present day and are far more factually accurate and self-evident than "Greater Persia" @Mdann52 I would like to add that the sources provided all talk about how Persian culture influenced the culture of the Barlas imperial courts - it does not speak to their ethnicity and to all the members of the clan, all of whom were not Kings! There is a distinct difference between ethnicity and culture. To characterize ethnicity on the basis of cultural influence is inappropriate. References[edit] References 1. Jump up^ Zahir ud-Din Mohammad (2002-09-10). Thackston, Wheeler M., ed. The Baburnama: Memoirs of Babur, Prince and Emperor. Modern Library Classics. ISBN 0-375-76137-3. "Note: Gurkānī is the Persianized form of the Mongolian word "qürügän" ("son-in-law"), the title given to the dynasty's founder after his marriage into Genghis Khan's family." 2. Jump up^ Note: Gurgān, Gurkhān, or Kurkhān; The meaning of Kurkhan is given in Clements Markham's publication of the reports of the contemporary witness Ruy González de Clavijo as "of the lineage of sovereign princes". 3. Jump up^ Edward Balfour The Encyclopaedia Asiatica, Comprising North India, Eastern and Southern Asia, Cosmo Publications 1976, S. 460, S. 488, S. 897 4. Jump up^ Maria Subtelny, "Timurids in Transition", BRILL; illustrated edition (2007-09-30). pg 40: "Nevertheless, in the complex process of transition, members of the Timurid dynasty and their Turko-Mongol supporters became acculturate by the surrounding Persianate millieu adopting Persian cultural models and tastes and acting as patrons of Persian culture, painting, architecture and music." pg 41: "The last members of the dynasty, notably Sultan-Abu Sa'id and Sultan-Husain, in fact came to be regarded as ideal Perso-Islamic rulers who develoted as much attention to agricultural development as they did to fostering Persianate court culture." 5. ^ Jump up to:a b c B.F. Manz, "Tīmūr Lang", in Encyclopaedia of Islam, Online Edition, 2006 6. Jump up^ Encyclopædia Britannica, "Timurid Dynasty", Online Academic Edition, 2007. (Quotation:...Turkic dynasty descended from the conqueror Timur (Tamerlane), renowned for its brilliant revival of artistic and intellectual life in Iran and Central Asia....Trading and artistic communities were brought into the capital city of Herat, where a library was founded, and the capital became the centre of a renewed and artistically brilliant Persian culture...) 7. Jump up^ "Timurids". The Columbia Encyclopedia (Sixth ed.). New York City: Columbia University. Retrieved 2006-11-08. 8. Jump up^ Encyclopædia Britannica article: Consolidation & expansion of the Indo-Timurids, Online Edition, 2007. 9. Jump up^ "Timur", The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition, 2001–05 Columbia University Press, (LINK) 10. Jump up^ "Consolidation & expansion of the Indo-Timurids", in Encyclopædia Britannica, (LINK) 11. Jump up^ B. Spuler, "Central Asia in the Mongol and Timurid periods", published in Encyclopædia Iranica, Online Edition, 2006/7, (LINK): "... Like his father, Olōğ Beg was entirely integrated into the Persian Islamic cultural circles, and during his reign Persian predominated as the language of high culture, a status that it retained in the region of Samarqand until the Russian revolution 1917 [...] Ḥoseyn Bāyqarā encouraged the development of Persian literature and literary talent in every way possible ..." 12. Jump up^ David J. Roxburgh. The Persian Album, 1400–1600: From Dispersal to Collection. Yale University Press, 2005. pg 130: "Persian literature, especially poetry, occupied a central in the process of assimilation of Timurid elite to the Perso-Islamicate courtly culture, and so it is not surprising to find Baysanghur commissioned a new edition of Firdawsi's Shanama Generally speaking, Persian sources like "Encyclopedia Iranica" seem biased in favor of exaggerating the influence of Persia on everything. Sources glorifying Persia are not objective. @Mdann52 Specifically, a lot of wrong assumptions are being made by NawabMalhi: 1. Source 1: Talks about the Mongols who ruled Persia and how they became persianized Barlas is part of this group which lived and ruled in Persia. Comment :The Barlas were not part of the people who ruled Persia, Persia was a small part of what they ruled and did not define all of them nor does it define their ethnic makeup. 2. Source 2: This talks of the Timurid(synonymous with Barlas) Babur (also first Mughal emperor) and how a perfect ruler is a persianized and islamicized Turco-Mongol ruler a tribute to the Timurids(Barlas). Comment: Timurids were one small branch of the Barlas and are not synonymous with all Barlas. This is a fallacious and illogical assertion. It is also irrelevant and does not speak to the ethnic makeup of the clanwhatsoever. Source 3: This talks about the Timurid(Barlas) and how persianized they have become, it also mention how Safavids and Qajars allied with Timurids also were persianized. Comment: Tmiurid are a small part of the Barlas and not synomous with the ethnic makeup of all of them. Irrelevant and does not speak to ethnicity whatsoever. Source 4: This is talking of the mongols who ruled and lived greater Persia the Ilkhanate (Barlas again were part of the Ilkhanate) and later resurrected it through the Timurids which angered many Mongols in th Mongol heartland and rebelled(like Jenoboyon).. read summary dispute for more Comment :The Barlas were not part of the Ilkhanate, the Ilkhanate was a small part of where they lived and what they ruled. It did not define all of them for all time. Source 5: This is again talking about persianized Turks and then mentions 'Timur's persianized Turks' which refers again to the Barlas tribe. (Timur is a patriach of Barlas) it continues to mention Mughals again part of Barlas tribe Comment: Irrelevant and does not speak to ethnicity whatsoever Source 6: This talks about Timur(leader of Barlas) and how he is heavily persianized as was his empire. Comment: Irrelevant and does not speak to ethnicity whatsoever. Timur was one member of the clan at a certain time and does not define the ethnicity of the clan. And being affected by persian culture did not change his Turco-Mongol ethnicity. Source 7: This mentins the Qajars a turco-mongol tribe with relation with Barlas/Timurids and show the came persianized This I guess is invalid because does not mention Barlas or Turco-Mongols in Persia or Timur. Comment: Irrelevant and does not speak to ethnicity whatsoever Source 8: This is talking about mongols(mentions specifically Timur)in the Islamic world (look starting near bottom of previous page) and how persianized Turco-Mongol Courts thrived and helped Islam Comment: Irrelevant and does not speak to ethnicity whatsoever @Mdann52 SOURCES PROVING BARLAS ETHNICITY AS EXCLUSIVELY TURKO-MONGOL: 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur "The Barlas were originally a Mongol tribe[22][23] that became Turkified.[2][3][4] 2. Carter V. Findley, The Turks in World History, Oxford University Press, 2005, Oxford University Press, 2005, ISBN 978-0-19-517726-8, p. 101. 3. G. R. Garthwaite, "The Persians", Malden, ISBN 978-1-55786-860-2, MA: Blackwell Pub., 2007. (p.148) Quotation:...Timur's tribe, the Barlas, had Mongol origins but had become Turkic-speaking ... However, the Barlus tribe is considered one of the original Mongol tribes and there are "Barlus Ovogton" people who belong to Barlus tribe in modern Mongolia. 4. ^ M.S. Asimov & C. E. Bosworth, History of Civilizations of Central Asia, UNESCO Regional Office, 1998, ISBN 92-3-103467-7, p. 320: "... One of his followers was [...] Timur of the Barlas tribe. This Mongol tribe had settled [...] in the valley of Kashka Darya, intermingling with the Turkish population, adopting their religion (Islam) and gradually giving up its own nomadic ways, like a number of other Mongol tribes in Transoxania ..." 5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty "The origin of the Timurid dynasty goes back to the Mongol tribe known as Barlas, who were remnants of the original Mongol army of Genghis Khan.[6][7][8] After the Mongol conquest of Central Asia, the Barlas settled in what is today southern Kazakhstan, from Shymkent to Taraz and Almaty, which then came to be known for a time as Moghulistan – "Land of Mongols" in Persian – and intermingled to a considerable degree with the local Turkic and Turkic-speaking population, so that at the time of Timur's reign the Barlas had become thoroughly Turkicized in terms of language and habits. Additionally, by adopting Islam, the Central Asian Turks and Mongols adopted the Persian literary and high culture[13] which had dominated Central Asia since the early days of Islamic influence. Persian literature was instrumental in the assimilation of the Timurid elite to the Perso-Islamic courtly culture.[14]" 6.B.F. Manz, "Tīmūr Lang", in Encyclopaedia of Islam, Online Edition, 2006 7. "Timur", The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition, 2001–05 Columbia University Press, (LINK) 8. "Consolidation & expansion of the Indo-Timurids", in Encyclopædia Britannica, (LINK) 9. David J. Roxburgh. The Persian Album, 1400–1600: From Dispersal to Collection. Yale University Press, 2005. pg 130: "Persian literature, especially poetry, occupied a central in the process of assimilation of Timurid elite to the Perso-Islamicate courtly culture, and so it is not surprising to find Baysanghur commissioned a new edition of Firdawsi's Shanama The clearly shows that the ethnicity was Turco Mongol and "persinaization" was just a cultural effect. 10. http://books.google.ca/books?id=1Nzh_9DZ5DYC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=barlas+turco+mongol&source=bl&ots=Mu4g7St6FO&sig=lSrHwrb8JbBVXSdudFsEQh01oAw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uYTlU7iuO4PioAShv4HoDg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=barlas%20turco%20mongol&f=false "Several of these groups - the Barlas, Arlat, Jalayir and Suldus - bore the names of Turco-Mongolian tribes known from the time of Chinggis Khan" 11. http://books.google.ca/books?id=lt2tqOpVRKgC&pg=PA311&lpg=PA311&dq=barlas+turco+mongol&source=bl&ots=O3fV5rMCrX&sig=o_Rv8MxXR2lBj2yAReHo0KqheEg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zYblU-D2KonsoASdzoCgAw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=barlas%20turco%20mongol&f=false "Temiir, a member of the Turco-Mongol clan of the Barlas" 12.http://books.google.ca/books?id=DW2jAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=barlas+turko+mongol&source=bl&ots=ryc-Vh7GZv&sig=BYkxUhX2GknIKYCsuo8aVrLKjCU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=boflU_K-AtXgoAT0hIDQDA&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=barlas%20turko%20mongol&f=false "Timur's family belonged to the Gorgan branch of the Turko-Mongol Barlas tribe" @Mdann52 here are a dozen credible sources that describe the Barlas as exclusively Turco-Mongol so Nawabmalhi has not carried the burden of proof. Taking a cultural influence of one culture out of the multitude of cultures they ruled, at best, describes a partial cultural influence and not ethnicity as is implied by calling them a "Persianized Turco Mongol clan" as this implies Persian ethnicity to a lay person reading it and is misleading. Conclusion: A lot of emphasis is being place on Timur, and the wrong assertion is being made that because he was affected by Persian culture, all the Barlas are "Persianized." Explaining a persian cultural influence on some factions of the clan at different times does not change the ethnic makeup of the clan. A lot of the sources are also biased in that a google search was done to support that the Barlas were "persianized" and no effort was made to ascertain their true ethnic heritage, which is what we are talking about. I have provided a dozen credible references describing the Barlas as exclusively Turco_Mongol so the burden of proof has not been met by Nawabmalhi. A cultural influence does not change ethnicity such that the cultural influence is used to describe ethnicity. And instead of Central Asia we can say Central and South Asia - Greater Persia is like calling the British Empire the "Greater Mughal Empire." @Mdann52 Thank you for your consideration. Jebenoyon (talk) 02:46, 9 August 2014 (UTC) Proposed solution[edit] I think the best solution I can prose, with the evidence presented here, is that the existing wording of the article remains. Unless I see any decisive evidence (as opposed toWP:SYNTH and sources failing WP:RS, I will close this shortly. --Mdann52talk to me! 06:03, 9 August 2014 (UTC) @Mdann52 their is no synthesis if you look to the Timurids and Mughals (you must use them unless the Barlas article is pure synthesis) because Barlas is an imperial clan as gate way to the the Barlas (please look at sources used in article), and we would also be inconsistent with other articles (Timurid Dynasty) we have on Wikipedia that has and is done by more senior editors. Again I have never said they are not ethnically Turco-Mongol, only that they are a persianized Turco-Mongol group is their evenone historian or source which says that the Barlas are not Persianized in contrast to my 7-8 sources are we going to say the Barlas are found in Central Asia while mostBarlas are not located in Iran,Pakistan ,and India their actually not and go against all the sources that say their a persianized group(Its purely cultural). Please explain your resolution, which source is not reliable, do you disagree with other articles related to this subject ,and can this be taken to an editor who knows more about this subject.--Nawabmalhi (talk) 17:36, 9 August 2014 (UTC) @Mdann52 As you can see this person now resorts to threats toward you as well, and the assertions he has again made here are not logical whatsoever. This is evident to someone reading this - there is no requirement that you MUST use these "sources" from which he has tried to weave a tapestry that is unsupported by the facts. What does an "Imperial clan as a gateway to the Barlas" mean anyway????? The Wikipedia article on the Timurid dynasty clearly says that the TIMURIDS were of Turco-Mongol lineage ONLY, just that there was a Persianate influence on THIS PARTICULAR GROUP- (who do not represent ALL BARLAS). Persianate being defined in Wikipedia as "A Persianate society, or Persified society, is a society that is either based on, or strongly influenced by the Persian language, culture, literature, art, and/or identity." This does not speak to ethnicity, which being "Persianized", regardless of his vehement denials, this person is trying to create the false impression of in the Barlas article. "The Timurid dynasty (Persian: تیموریان‎), self-designated Gurkānī [3][4][5] (Persian: گوركانى‎), was a Sunni Muslim PERSIANATE (NOT PERSIANIZED)[6][7] dynasty of Turco-Mongol lineage[7][8][9][10] that ruled over modern-day Iran, the Caucasus, Mesopotamia, Afghanistan, much of Central Asia, as well as parts of contemporary Pakistan, Syria, India, Anatolia." This person also does not seem to want to understand or acknowledge that everyone agrees that the dynasty was in CENTRAL AND SOUTH ASIA, falsely saying every time, as if South Asia has never been mentioned, that there are more descendants in South Asia than in Central Asia, ergo lets say "Greater Persia instead of "Central Asia, cleverly omitting that I am OK with saying Central and South Asia, just not with Greater Persia, and have said so several times!" There is no logic to this - I have no problems adding South Asia to Central Asia, which is more accurate, but "Greater Persia" is like calling present day France a Roman province. As you can see from this person's attitude, he is not concerned here about what is factually accurate, but at ensuring that he forces his contentious views on everyone by any means necessary, such as now questioning you and threatening to take this to someone else etc. etc. Such a person should be banned from Wikipedia for trying to distort facts and creating false impressions to support his personal religious beliefs and repeatedly threatening others and wasting everyone's time! In summary, he is trying to take small, specific assertions made in certain, specific contexts, and trying to weave a tapestry that doesn't exist out of them. He is intentionally engaging in mischaracterization of other people's positions and then arguing against the mischaracterizations of their opinions that he himself sets up! It is clear his motives are not based on enlightened, intellectual resolutions of the facts but on enforcing his contentious views by any means necessary. Thank you for your time and for taking the time to address this matter. If he chooses to continue with this, rest assured I will continue as well because it is time that someone stood up to this kind of attempted bullying and distortion. Jebenoyon (talk) 18:17, 9 August 2014 (UTC) @Jebenoyon what threats did I make, what bullying? I actually do agree with you though that we should just change greater persia to Central Asia, South Asia, and Iran for more accuracy. But I donnot understand how persianized changes their ethnic Turco-Mongol origin? (Its purely cultural) I always thought persianized and persianate were pretty much the same and that persianate term applied to a society, and persianization applied to a certain group of people but if show that persianate can be applied to a group of people we actually might be closer in viewpoints than I thought. But Jebenoyon I have not used the source wrongly you know aswell as I do that the Timurids are the only reason the Barlas are remembered and the most of them attained high positions and fiefdoms(mini courts) because of Timurid dynasty but were eventually forced downward by the Uzbeks and other Turko-Mongols into South Asia where they formed the Mughal dynasty.Timur was the leader of Barlas and the Barlas made up his army,allies, and relations. @Mdann52None of my sources are invalid persianization is purely culturalIf Jebenoyon thinks that persianate works, I don't understand why persianized doesn't. But either way I donnot think we are actually that far apart( I thought that persianate was only applicable to society, it might be otherwise). If he wants to use persianate instead of persianized. I personally don't have a problem. He also seems to be willing to add South Asia and Iran which would be fair with me aswell.--Nawabmalhi (talk) 19:19, 9 August 2014 (UTC) @Jebenoyon give me one source that mentions the Barlas without mentioning the Timurids? You can't. Timurid and Barlas are pretty interchangeble because the Timurids made and led the whole Barlas to become a imperial ruling clan!--Nawabmalhi (talk) 20:25, 9 August 2014 (UTC) @Mdann52 @Nawabmalhi 1. Nawabmalhi you first threatened me that you would report me for vandalizing, then that you would report me to Wikipedia and I could potentially be banned, and now you threatened Mdann52 that you would Go to another editor who is "more experienced" than him. Your conduct is self evident to any discriminating and discerning individual and I do not wish to debate this matter with you. 2. Iran is a part of Central and South Asia. I never said "Change Greater Persia to Central and South Asia AND IRAN" so please do not mischaracterize my position. I said we can add South Asia to Central Asia but they moved into South Asia from central Asia and the second sentence on the page already addresses this and mentions Iran in that sentence along with other countries. 3. Actually Nawabmalhi the "Secret History of the Mongols", discovered hundreds of years after it was written, is regarded by most as the MOST DEFINITIVE AND AUTHENTIC SOURCE ON THE MONGOLS. IT MENTIONS THE BARLAS WITHOUT A SINGLE WORD ON THE TIMURIDS, WHO DID NOT EXIST WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN!!!! THEREFORE, THE "Timurids" ARE NOT THE ONLY REASON THE BARLAS ARE REMEMBERED. THEY ORIGINATED FROM THE LEGENDARY MONGOL WARLORD, BODONACHIR MUNQQAQ, WHO WAS ALSO THE ANCESTOR OF GENGHIS KHAN. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlas "According to the Secret History of the Mongols, written during the reign of Ögedei Khan [r. 1229-1241], the Barlas shared ancestry with the Borjigin, the imperial clan of Genghis Khan and his successors, and other Mongol clans. The leading clan of the Barlas traced its origin to Qarchar Barlas,[1] head of one of Chagatai's regiments. Qarchar Barlas was a descendant of the legendary Mongol warlord Bodonchir (Bodon Achir; Bodon'ar Mungqaq), who was also considered a direct ancestor of Genghis Khan.[5] 1. B.F. Manz, The rise and rule of Tamerlan, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge 1989, p. 28: "... We know definitely that the leading clan of the Barlas tribe traced its origin to Qarchar Barlas, head of one of Chaghadai's regiments ... These then were the most prominent members of the Ulus Chaghadai: the old Mongolian tribes — Barlas, Arlat, Soldus and Jalayir ..." 5. René Grousset, The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia, Rutgers University Press, 1988. ISBN 0-81... (p.409) IN ANY CASE, EVEN IF THE BARLAS ARE ONLY REMEMBERED BECAUSE OF THE TIMURIDS, WHICH AS I HAVE SHOWN ABOVE IS NOT THE CASE, BUT EVEN IF IT WERE, IT IS STILL WRONG TO CHARACTERIZE THE WHOLE CLAN AS "PERSIANIZED" JUST BECAUSE PERSIA WAS PART OF THE TIMURID EMPIRE AND THEY ADOPTED SOME PERSIAN CUSTOMS. HERE IS THE BASIC MISTAKE YOU ARE MAKING. THE TIMURIDS AND MUGHALS, FAMOUS AS THEY WERE, ARE A SUBSET OF THE BARLAS, AND THE PERIOD THEY REPRESENT IS A SUBSET OF THE HISTORY OF THE BARLAS, AND THEY DO NOT DEFINE THE ETHNICITY AND MAKEUP OF THE ENTIRE CLAN FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END OF TIME. THE BARLAS ARE NOT A SUBSET OF THE TIMURIDS OR THE MUGHALS JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE WORLD FAMOUS!!!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlas "Its most famous representatives were the Timurids, a dynasty founded by the conqueror Timur (Tamerlane) in the 14th century, who ruled over modern-day Iran, Afghanistan, much of Central Asia, as well as parts of contemporary Pakistan, India, Mesopotamia, Anatolia and the Caucasus." Iran is also already mentioned here, along with several other countries. There is no need to add it to the preceding sentence to the above, copied below, as well, which simply talks about where the clan was originally settled. The Barlas (Chagatay/Persian: برلاس‎ Barlās; also Berlas; Mongolian: Barlas) were a Turco-Mongol[1][2] nomadic confederation in Central Asia.[3][4] Its most famous representatives were the Timurids, a dynasty founded by the conqueror Timur (Tamerlane) in the 14th century, who ruled over modern-day Iran, Afghanistan, much of Central Asia, as well as parts of contemporary Pakistan, India, Mesopotamia, Anatolia and the Caucasus." 3. Encyclopædia Britannica, "Timur", Online Academic Edition, 2007. Quotation: "Timur was a member of the Barlas tribe, a Mongol subgroup that had settled in Transoxania (now roughly corresponding to Uzbekistan) after taking part in Genghis Khan's son Chagatai's campaigns in that region. Timur thus grew up in what was known as the Chagatai khanate." ... 4. G.R. Garthwaite, "The Persians", Malden, ISBN 978-1-55786-860-2, MA: Blackwell Pub., 2007. (p.148) 4. I do not entirely agree with the description of the Timurids as a "Persianate" society and have never said I do. I have shown a dozen credible sources that make no mention of Persian in the description of the Barlas. This is one article on the Timurids, who are a SUBSET of the Barlas, both in time and in numbers, and even here, as I show below, the sources are taken out of context so maybe I will attend to this after we are done here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty "The Timurid dynasty (Persian: تیموریان‎), self-designated Gurkānī [3][4][5] (Persian: گوركانى‎), was a Sunni Muslim Persianate[6][7] dynasty of Turco-Mongol lineage[7][8][9][10] that ruled over modern-day Iran, the Caucasus, Mesopotamia, Afghanistan, much of Central Asia, as well as parts of contemporary Pakistan, Syria, India, Anatolia. The dynasty was founded by Timur (Tamerlane) in the 14th century." 6. Maria Subtelny, "Timurids in Transition", BRILL; illustrated edition (2007-09-30). pg 40: "Nevertheless, in the complex process of transition, members of the Timurid dynasty and their Turko-Mongol supporters became acculturate by the surrounding Persianate millieu adopting Persian cultural models and tastes and acting as patrons of Persian culture, painting, architecture and music." pg 41: '"The last members of the dynasty, notably Sultan-Abu Sa'id and Sultan-Husain, in fact came to be regarded as ideal Perso-Islamic rulers who develoted as much attention to agricultural development as they did to fostering Persianate court culture." 7. B.F. Manz, "Tīmūr Lang", in Encyclopaedia of Islam, Online Edition, 2006 A source has been used in the Timurid article which says "ACTING AS PATRONS OF PERSIAN CULTURE" AND "THE LAST MEMBERS OF THIS DYNASTY CAME TO BE REGARDED AS IDEAL PERSO-ISLAMIC RULERS WHO DEVOTED AS ,UCH ATTENTION TO AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT AS THEY DID TO FPOSTERING PERSIANATE COURT CULTURE" . TO USE THIS TO DESCRIBE THE WHOLE DYNASTY AS PERSIANATE IS WRONG IN MY OPINION AND, AS I SAID, I WILL DEAL WITH THAT AFTER THIS IS SETTLED. I HAD JUST NOT SEEN IT AND IT IS PONE ARTICLE, WHICH IS USING A SOURCE OUT OF CONTEXT, AND I HAVE PROVIDED A DOZEN PERTINENT SOURCES THAT MAKE NO MENTION OF PERSIAN. In summary, I do not agree with using "Persianate" instead of "Persianized" and will also deal with the Timurid Article, which I say is factually wrong - starting out with describing them as a "Persianate" dynasty. In any case, even if they were, which I do not believe, just because they were fampous doesnt mean that their adoption of some culture from the Persians make the whole race "Persianized" or a "Persianate." At best, that was a small subset of the clan, at a brief moment in time and does not speak to their origins and is not the proper way to describe them. Iran is already included in the second sentence on the Barlas page- there is no need to include it again in the first one. The Burden of proof was on you nawabmalhi, and you have simply not met it whatsoever. You cannot turn this around on Mdann52 or myself by asking us to prove you wrong - you are the one who had had many chances to prove this and cannot because it simply is not true. I sympathize with your religious sentiments, but they do not reflect the makeup of my people. Thank you.Jebenoyon (talk) 20:54, 9 August 2014 (UTC) @Jebenoyon: 1.the source which you gave does mention the Timurids but the mention of a Barlas ancestor does not mean the ancestor gave the clan prominence but instead to soley trace the roots of the timurids. 2. Read the sources I gave you which shows that Even Timur was a ideal Perso-Islamic ruler 3. The timurids specifically along most of the Barlas were definetley persianized I gave you 8 valid sources 4. But I understand your point that maybe some segments may not have personally this is my first time hearing this 5. Till I find a source that specifically mentions Barlas in general I will not write persianized;however I do think it is important to mention that Timurids and Mughals were persianized and will reference this with the sources I gave you 6. And PLEASE understand that persianization in NOT ethnic but cultural Read persianization and Turko-Persian tradition 7. Again I did not threaten anyone to be honest you threatened report me I told you not to Edit War and asked Mdann52 if their was forum were a more specialized editor(in this area) could look at the issue --Nawabmalhi (talk) 21:57, 9 August 2014 (UTC) @Mdann52 @Nawabmalhi 1. The Source I gave you that mentions the Barlas without a word on the Timurids is what is regarded as the leading source on the Mongols, called the "Secret History of the Mongols." This has nothing to do with the Timurids and you are once again setting up a mischaracterization of what I said and then arguing against the false premise you yourself have set up. Here is what I said: "3. Actually Nawabmalhi the "Secret History of the Mongols", discovered hundreds of years after it was written, is regarded by most as the MOST DEFINITIVE AND AUTHENTIC SOURCE ON THE MONGOLS. IT MENTIONS THE BARLAS WITHOUT A SINGLE WORD ON THE TIMURIDS, WHO DID NOT EXIST WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN!!!!" You are wrongfully taking the next paragraph, which only REFERS to the "Secret History of the Mongols" and taking the sources for THAT PARAGRAPH, setting up, as usual, a wrong premise yourself that has nothing to do with what I said, and then arguing against it! read the "Secret History of the Mongols" if you are such a student of the barlas clan and rest assured YOU WILL NOT FIND ONE SINGLE WORD IN IT ON THE TIMURIDS BECAUSE THEY DID NOT EXIST THEN, BUT THE BARLAS ARE MENTIONED BECAUSE THEY DID EXIST THEN! 2. Have you not read any of what I have written? It doesn't matter what ONE source says about Timur - I have provided ONE DOZEN better sources that say nothing about the Barlas being 'Persianized" 3. And I have given a dozen valid sources that make no mention of persian - what part of carrying the "Burden of proof" do you not understand? 4. I am glad you get this, qualified though your statement is 5. You need to mention "Persianization" in a limited context and way down on the page somewhere - not to start the page as if that defines them in their entirety! 6. I do understand this but the way you are trying to present it, making it the first word in the description of the clans origins, was and remains inappropriate. It is like describing the British as "The British were an Indianized group...." just because some British became Indianized during the British rule in india. @Jebenoyon The modern western sources were using the Secret History of Mongols to trace the origin of the timurids, mention of the Barlas ancestor does not signify any importance of Barlas since we link the ancestor to the Barlas clan so you have not shown any source that mentions Barlas and not Timurids. Overall all, we are in agreement--Nawabmalhi (talk) 23:27, 9 August 2014 (UTC) @Mdann52 @Nawabmalhi Nawabmalhi 'it does not matter what the modern sources were using the "Secret History of the Mongols" for - The 'Secret History of the Mongols" ITSELF IS A SOURCE THAT MENTIONS BARLAS WITHOUT MENTIONING THE TIMURIDS AS I SAID VERY, VERY CLEARLY. IT IS CLEAR YOU KNOW NOTHING OF THIS BOOK WHICH IS A MUCH TREASURED SOURCE ON THE MONGOLS, AND FROM WHICH MUCH IS QUOTED BY MANY. IT MENTIONS THE BARLAS WITHOUT MENTIONING THE TIMURIDS, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ASKED ME TO SHOW, WHICH IS NOT EVEN RELEVANT TO THE MATTER AT HAND BUT WHICH I SHOWED CLEARLY ANYWAY. NOW YOU INTRODUCE A NEW FACET, THE IMPORTANCE OR LACK OF IMPORTANCE OF THE BARLAS CLAN WITH OR WITHOUT THE TIMURIDS- THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR ETHNICITY AND HOW THEY ARE DESCRIBED. YOU ARE PLAIN WRONG AND YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE NO SENSE AND DO NOT FLOW. ANYONE READING THIS CAN SEE FOR THEMSELVES. AGAIN YOU MISCHARACTERIZE WHAT WAS SAID, PRESENT IT OUT OF CONTEXT, ADDRESS NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE, AND TRY TO CONFUSE THE ISSUE WITH IRRELEVANT THINGS YOU HAVE CREATED ALL ON YOUR OWN.' LET'S NOT TRY TO BEAT A DEAD HORSE OVER AND OVER AND OVER.Jebenoyon (talk) 01:54, 10 August 2014 (UTC) @Jebenoyon Let me explain again: Mention of the Barlas ancestor does not signify any importance of Barlas since the author of the western book links the ancestor to the Barlas clan (Not Secret History of the Mongols (full book)) and the Barlas are not mentioned in the text specifically, so you have not shown any source that mentions Barlas and not Timurids. The source you are using to quote (Secret History of the Mongols) FROM is about Timur and Timurids--Nawabmalhi (talk) 03:40, 10 August 2014 @-NawabmalhiAnd Let me also explain again, in fact let me show exactly what I said: 3. Actually Nawabmalhi the "Secret History of the Mongols", discovered hundreds of years after it was written, is regarded by most as the MOST DEFINITIVE AND AUTHENTIC SOURCE ON THE MONGOLS. IT MENTIONS THE BARLAS WITHOUT A SINGLE WORD ON THE TIMURIDS, WHO DID NOT EXIST WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN!!!! THEREFORE, THE "Timurids" ARE NOT THE ONLY REASON THE BARLAS ARE REMEMBERED. THEY ORIGINATED FROM THE LEGENDARY MONGOL WARLORD, BODONACHIR MUNQQAQ, WHO WAS ALSO THE ANCESTOR OF GENGHIS KHAN. This is what I said. Then I went ON TO SAY, SEPARATE AND APART FROM THE PRECEDING: "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlas "According to the Secret History of the Mongols, written during the reign of Ögedei Khan [r. 1229-1241], the Barlas shared ancestry with the Borjigin, the imperial clan of Genghis Khan and his successors, and other Mongol clans. The leading clan of the Barlas traced its origin to Qarchar Barlas,[1] head of one of Chagatai's regiments. Qarchar Barlas was a descendant of the legendary Mongol warlord Bodonchir (Bodon Achir; Bodon'ar Mungqaq), who was also considered a direct ancestor of Genghis Khan.[5] 'The fact that the source that refers to the "Secret History of the Mongols" in this particular article is the reference below, and is a book on Timur, DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE MONGOLS IS ABOUT TIMUR, AND THE QUOTE ABOVE DIRECTLY SAYS THE BARLAS ARE MENTIONED IN THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE MONGOLS, WHICH DOES NOT MNTION TIMUR BECAUSE HE DID NOT EVEN EXIST THEN, AND WHICH I HAVE READ AND YOU CLEARLY HAVE NOT! 1. B.F. Manz, The rise and rule of Tamerlan, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge 1989, p. 28: "... We know definitely that the leading clan of the Barlas tribe traced its origin to Qarchar Barlas, head of one of Chaghadai's regiments ... These then were the most prominent members of the Ulus Chaghadai: the old Mongolian tribes — Barlas, Arlat, Soldus and Jalayir ..." 5. René Grousset, The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia, Rutgers University Press, 1988. ISBN 0-81... (p.409) The above clearly shows the Barlas ARE MENTIONED IN THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE MONGOLS AND THE TIMURIDS ARE NOT MENTIONED IN THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE MONGOLS SO YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG. WHY CAN YOU NOT ADMIT WHEN YOU ARE WRONG AND WHY DO YOU KEEP ON ARGUING CHILDISHLY? THIS MATTER IS OVER BUT I WILL NOT LET YOU KEEP SAYING WRONG THINGS AND GETTING AWAY WITH THEM AS LONG AS THIS PAGE IS OPEN. AND NONE OF THIS MATTERS ANYWAY, IT IS FURTHER EVIDENCE OF YOUR STYLE WHICH IS CLEARLY APPARENT!' Jebenoyon (talk) 05:24, 10 August 2014 (UTC) Proposed solution[edit] I think the best solution I can prose, with the evidence presented here, is that the existing wording of the article remains. Unless I see any decisive evidence (as opposed toWP:SYNTH and sources failing WP:RS, I will close this shortly. --Mdann52talk to me! 06:03, 9 August 2014 (UTC) @Mdann52 NawabMalhi says "Overall we are in agreement" at the end of his last comment and so I suggest this matter be closed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jebenoyon(talk • contribs) 01:51, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

OMG, summarize instead of posting pages worth of text. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:58, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The original discussion can be found here. There was no need to copy and paste the whole thing. The closing admin did not side with you, he told you to quit bickering. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:09, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Harassment and troublemaking by ClaphamSix

A new account, ClaphamSix (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has popped up to continue the same disruptive behavior and harassment that Festal82 and his sockpuppets carried out before his ban. The CheckUser admin on the SPI page believes the account to be another sock, but this is awaiting a behavioral evaluation by the clerks. In the meantime, this user is flooding the metamodernism talk page with as many alarmist comments and page-long screeds as they can, obviously to give a false impression of conflict--where there has otherwise been considered, calm discussion and consensus since Festal's ban--and to obscure the relevant discussions that have been taking place there. His tactic seems to be to drag in other editors from the WikiProject Philosophy page that may not be fully aware of the history and frustrations we have all experienced on this page with Festal's POV pushing, to cause chaos and bring into question the integrity of the discussion there.

The user has continued Festal's malicious, unfounded and serious misrepresentations of mine and other editors' edits (see previous ANI incident here), trying to falsely Out me by bizarrely claiming he knows my IP (which he obviously doesn't), from which he's spreading the lie that I live in a tiny village I have never even heard of (!?!), seemingly to try to discredit my transparently consensus-led edit history, and slinging a vast quantity of mud in the hope that some will stick. He's also dragged the CheckUser admin into the discussion, being seriously condescending about their actions, which is why they advised I take this matter here and request another admin look at this, to avoid a WP:INVOLVED conflict. As his latest posts seriously break just about every rule with regards to WP:HARASS, WP:OUTING and WP:NOTHERE, please could someone help here with a swift block, and save us all the headache of having to constantly defend against the barrage of lies he keeps spreading. Esmeme (talk) 10:47, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

For information, there has been a long dispute over the metamodernism article. It has ebbed to and fro with at least two socking users getting themselves indef blocked, and it is currently focused on two antagonists - Esmeme who posted here and ClaphamSix about whom they are complaining. Both are WP:SPA editors to date and inexperienced in Wikipedia's habitual ways. While one involved Admin suspects ClaphamSix is a sock, this user's very first edit was an appeal to the philosophy WikiProject to review the situation, so I think that suggestions of WP:NOTHERE need to be treated with caution.

Although pots and kettles spring strongly to mind, especially with respect to harrassment and outing, both editors have so far been constructive in helping me work towards a resolution at Talk:Metamodernism and I'd suggest that this ANI is a bit premature. IMHO the less smoke and heat the better. I'd personally rather wait and see how things develop for a while. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:28, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Steelpillow, please take at look at Festal82's edit history, and his repeated baseless attempts to smear my name and accuse me of being various people associated with the article (which I am plainly not). There is no doubt in my mind that this new account is the same user, and his tactics are the same. The repeated, blatant violation of WP:OUTING is surely more than enough to warrant a ban. The discussion there has not so much "ebbed and flowed"--it has simply been Festal's sockpuppets trying to give the illusion of conflict in order to push a POV that only he holds. On the other hand, I believe you will see that my own behavior here has been nothing but exemplary (and that I did not make the edits he accuses me of), and I am now fairly familiar with wiki's processes, having had to deal with Festal's devious edits for many months. It should be clear that none of the banned sock accounts have any relation to me or the neutral POV I have tried to uphold. From your comments, it worries me that some of his mudslinging is having the desired effect, so I urge you to investigate every one of his statements, and I think you will find the majority turn out to be deviously misrepresenting the facts. We all welcome your input and that of other editors on the page, but these abusive and mudslinging sockpuppets need to be clamped down on. Esmeme (talk) 11:47, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Just to reassure you, I am not looking at unsubstantiated mudslinging as anything except just that. I have seen no serious suggestion that any of the socks was you. As yet, the suspicion that ClaphamSix is a sock of Festal82 remains unconfirmed, I am just not prepared to second-guess the outcome. Hope this helps. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 13:22, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Steelpillow, that's twice on ANI that you've made a similar statement on awaiting the SPI outcome: please don't as it's not helpful. WP:DUCK is often sufficient the panda ₯’ 09:02, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification Steelpillow, I appreciate your position entirely. What we can say at this stage is that the admin has stated that ClaphamSix is somebody's sock. Esmeme (talk) 13:38, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Just to add that the user is back with more lies, bizarre WP:OUTING claims and disruptive screeds [63]. Please can someone take a look at this urgently, as the account is obscuring and severely disrupting the genuine efforts of editors there. Thanks. Esmeme (talk) 08:10, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Again, please could an admin take at look at the constant WP:HARRASS and false WP:OUTING I am having to endure on Talk:Metamodernism‎. This needs to be put a stop to, as it is severely disrupting any useful discussion on the page, and is personally very unpleasant to have to constantly defend against. Esmeme (talk) 08:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Claiming they know your IP is not outing. the panda ₯’ 00:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Ok, sorry DangerousPanda, but isn't it an attempt at outing in order to try to intimidate/discredit me? Making continual false claims (they clearly don't know my IP, as I live nowhere near the locations they claim I do) is surely WP:HARRASS? One day the user said they "know" I live in a tiny village in Europe, the next they say that I'm someone from LA. It's tiresome and impossible to reason with, combined with their complete lies about my edits and those of other editors, and their outright denial of the previous sockpuppetry. Esmeme (talk) 07:47, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, according to some website somewhere, I'm about 10 years older than I really am with a goatee, and live on the English side of my city (the shame!) The old saying "the best way to confirm a rumour is to officially deny it" holds play. When someone says "I know who you are", say "excellent, I know who I am too!" If you're concerned that they really do know where you live and you see it as a threat, call the cops. Otherwise, if they want to randomly throw darts at a globe, denying simply allows them to get closer to the real place. It's childish, uncivil, and if used wrong can be attempted intimidation, but not outing the panda ₯’ 09:12, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Ok, thank you for the advice. There's no concern that they really do know where I live, but it's more a frustration that they are continually trying to undermine my edits, misrepresenting my every comment and trying to intimidate me and other editors there. Randomly throwing darts, indeed. Just there's a lot of darts in the air at the moment, and it makes for a very messy talk page. Esmeme (talk) 11:32, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

It looks to me like Esmeme has uncovered some hoaxing or some egregious self-promotion - probably the former - and is being harassed. Could someone with a block button please take a careful look? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I just restored this thread from auto-archiving. It's not resolved yet but under the scrutiny of User:DeltaQuad, whose last commented at SPI: "I am still keeping an eye on this case, I make it a personal policy not to mix my CU hat with my admin hat unless absolutely required. I'll talk to a clerk about the case hopefully in the next 48 hours and we will go from there. 00:05, 28 August 2014."
Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 10:05, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Can someone please get Elizium23 to stop threatening me?

Can someone please get Elizium23 to stop threatening me? They keep inventing and escalating problems when everyone else is being pretty helpful. I don't appreciate being threatened every time they don't get their way, like when they tried to delete the article. Masioka (talk) 17:35, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Dispute resolution is thataway also read up on WP:Boomerang, some of your edits have been disruptive and there appears to be a lack of wiling to provide reliable sources to back up your claims. Amortias (T)(C)

I'm attempting to get the threats to end, other people are already intervening to resolve the disputed content (all of it has been kept despite that editor's attempts to remove it and delete the entire article). I have been providing reliable sources the whole time. The other editor maybe doesn't like what they say, however the sources are reliable. Masioka (talk) 18:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

This is a content dispute, not an ANI matter and the "threats" are warnings about disruptive editing. Please continue your conversation with Elizium23 at Talk:World Congress of Families or as Amortias suggests, take it to Dispute Resolution if you prefer. I'd hate to see this escalate into something that might actually warrant the attention of this board. Thanks.  Philg88 ^♦talk 18:12, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

It's more than a content dispute. It's a behavioral issue and I was inches away from my own ANI filing anyway, so let's have it out now. Masioka is a WP:SPA come here to POV push on one article, World Congress of Families. She has edit-warred with me, deleted a maintenance tag out of process, made a personal attack against me, and now she has taken to using the Talk page as a soapbox for advocacy of anti-conservative polemics and bile. It's beginning to border on copyright violation as she copy-pastes from sources, too. So she has within the space of a couple of days clearly represented to me that she is not here constructively. Elizium23 (talk) 19:05, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I have to wonder now, given the prominence of WCF on HRC's home page, whether Masioka is somehow associated with, and/or on the payroll of, the Human Rights Campaign. Perhaps a checkuser could determine that, or Masikoa's good faith declaration yea or nay on this page. Elizium23 (talk) 21:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Um, do you have any other evidence of a connection between the OP and HRC besides both not liking the WCF, which is something quite a lot of people dislike? Nil Einne (talk) 01:59, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Jakobrots500 (talk)

I would like to report disruptive editing of this user on Massachusetts road articles, in particular Interstate 95 in Massachusetts. This user has been adding unsourced information to the Exit list and has been reverted many times. I took time to go through reliable references [64] to settle on the content, but this user has not stopped adding such unverifiable information. I have reached out to the user for a discussion, but requests have been ignored. The user also did not respect a standard at WP:RJL on other articles, but the article mentioned above is the most apparent.

Diffs demonstrating disruption after references were added: [65], [66], [67], [68] Chinissai (talk) 22:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Some mobile users appear to completely miss the notification system (despite the big red number), or otherwise seem to think we can't block them. Inability to read messages and refusal to read messages don't really have different effects on the community, but because there's the chance he simply doesn't know what the big red number at the top of the screen is, a block shouldn't more than 24 hours. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:34, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Unsourced information is not the same as unverifiable information. It perfectly OK to add unsourced information, as long as it is verifiable. And indeed if we can't verify it after consulting the user (who in this case is not responding), we remove it, and inform the user (exactly as Chinissai did, of course). If they continue to add it back that is disruptive - I'm not sure from the description above if they are re-adding the same information.

Having said that the pattern of making many edits, being reverted, and carrying blithely on, perhaps using as a reference an outdated US road atlas of some type, is disturbing.

It is important to contact this editor, who may have more than one account. I notice that User:RyGuy012 has an email contact set up. This might be the next best step, if they are confirmed to be the same person.

Clearly if they do not engage, and continue to make only edits which are reverted they will be likely to end up blocked, and sooner rather than later.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC).

[Behavior/Misconduct] User:Semitransgenic

Wasn't there also a User conduct noticeboard about behavior and etiquette a few decades back? I will fill my report here, I really am sorry but I could not find the specific board unless the policies have changed and it has been merged with another in which this board has to be close to the right noticeboard for this kind of issue.

User:Semitransgenic has a very colorful way of responding to random people and sure if this is how he talks home or to his mother then good for him but he will not talk this way to me. This disgusting display of human behavior stayed up right there, above a newer post of an either totally clueless or ignorant administrator(!) (tools) who chose to say absolutely nothing, for one(!!) entire month without no one taking a notice not even the administrators which is a complete failure to contain a breach on both sides, the administrators and Semitransgenetic, who even had time to amend his position and apologize for some of the most disturbing comments I have ever seen on the entire internet but choose not to. It is saddening to see comments like these slip right through because it really shows poor integrity of individual users here. There is no point of being preachy here but people like him don't belong on Wikipedia unless Wikipedia was a discussion board of homemade moonshine-makers and avid wife beaters and even then it would not be acceptable the way he reacted. I demand a sincere apology from him because there is simply no reason or to act like this to your fellow user on Wikipedia. ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 00:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Other than the WP:NPA violation of calling someone a "prick", not much there. WP:WQA is sadly long gone, and since the NPA is a month ago, not much we can do at this point. It's also nowhere near the level of "disgusting display" that you suggest the panda ₯’ 00:45, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

User:StanTheMan87

Every time the image of Mullah Omar is deleted [69] right away StanTheMan87 (talk · contribs) uploads another copy of the same image. On his user page he wrote "I detest wik-i-diots." [70], He's edit-warring on Taliban page [71] and pov pushing on other pages. Looks to me like single purpose account with specific agenda and likely another editor's sockpuppet.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 02:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I re-upload that image becuase I see no reason as to why it must be taken down on a supposed copyright violation when it's in the Public Domain being published by the U.S State Department. "I detest wik-i-diots" is in reference to users such as Dannis243 who revert edits without justifying them, as you can see [72]. POV pushing? Since when is citing sources on the documented elimination of minorities under the Taliban regime POV pushing? See [73] Single purpose account? Since when is it an offense to edit articles based on historical interest? See [74] [75] [76] [77] Specific agenda? Please, am I meant to be some agent of the Taliban, when I upload a U.S State Department wanted image of their leader onto Wikipedia for scholarly discussion? I do it for Wikipedia's benefit and those that use it, not for my own self-gratification. Sock puppetry? I only have one account, launch some sort of investigation if it pleases you. StanTheMan87 (talk) 03:07, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

As for the image, in my experience US government websites tend to be pretty bad about actually ensuring the images they host are PD, though in most cases those sites don't have the kind of claim the RFJ website does. A big issue is that, at least on the file page, the date and author of the photograph are unknown. The type of image suggests it wasn't taken clandestinely, but instead professionally... it seems likely the image is not PD. It should probably be deleted. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 03:30, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Given that the FAQ on the RFJ cite does specify that images that have copyright will be tagged as such and reusers are required to get the proper rights for reuse for those, and this image is not tagged with that, then it is not our fault that the RFJ misclaimed this as PD; they are an authorative source here, and thus I see no issue with calling that image PD, unless we can ultimately verify that it is a true copyvio. --MASEM (t) 03:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I just don't think it's a credible claim of being in the PD. It has a number of markings indicating it's a studio photo. And without the original source, author, or place of publication, how are we to really evaluate the claim that it's in the PD? At least military photos will tell you the name and rank of the photographer who took an image, and give you an indication of when and where it was taken. This has absolutely nothing. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 03:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I would think or hope that the people in charge of that site did sufficient research to chase down the source for the image. Also keep in mind: the US does not respect copyrights of certain countries (the ones listed with "none" in here), so if this photo originated from one of those countries, the US gov't would consider it public domain. --MASEM (t) 03:59, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but at the very least my experience (and I'm sure that of others) has borne out that most federal agencies have no clue what's going on when it comes to copyright. The fact that there is no source, author, or date information only makes it worse. We just don't know. This is a pretty straightforward application of the same precautionary principle used over at Commons. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 04:24, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

multiple admins abusing power at vani hari

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Multiple admins have been abusing power and harassing users at the vani hari page. They are making false claims that anyone who disagrees with them is a sockpuppet and now have abused their power to control not just the page but the talk page so they can own the article and delete discussion on news coverage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.103.95 (talk) 04:06, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

This appears to be SCIENCE MEANS REALITY who is a long term abuse case. See the long list of IPs(particularly 98.196.234.202) pushing POV at Vani Hari over the last week. Chillum 04:23, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

• Obvious anon sock blocked. Dreadstar ☥ 04:28, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Not cool, you can't just make claims like that and abuse power without proof, especially Dreadstar who is one of the admins who thinks they WP:OWN the article and is obviously involved just like his friend Chillum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.190.149 (talk • contribs) 04:32, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Unblocking IP range

Resolved

 – Unblocked. Materialscientist (talk) 04:54, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

@Materialscientist: has blocked the IP range 117.239.0.0/16 for spam. I am conducting a Wiki academy on behalf of the Wikimedia India Chapter at NMIMS, to whom the IP belongs. Please unblock the range for ten hours from now [0447-1447 UTC]. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 04:49, 30 August 2014 (UTC)