Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Take a look at these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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User:Purgatory Fubar

Please examine the history of User talk:Purgatory Fubar. I am a long time anon editor seeimingly being "harassed" by the above user (User:Purgatory Fubar). I attempted to engage in conversation, specifically about WP:RED policy (see [1] which was reverted) but find my edits constantly reverted and marked as "vandalism", on his talk page, without even a token attempt to engage further.

This has progressed onto my user talk page (see the history, I have removed what I consider to be "bad faith" templates placed on the page by the above user), and now onto any other articles I have ever edited - such as Halloween (film) ([2] claimed to be "reverting vandalism" but in fact nothing of the sort).

here is the user attempting to "block" me as a vandal: [3]

here is the user again removing warnings claiming it is "unwarranted": [4]

here is the user attempting to engage another user (in barely grammatical language) in the war: [5] - claiming "trollery"

here is the user reverting yet another page without any expln other than I was the last editor: [6]

another one: removing notability tag [7]

removal of all red links from Hong Kong action cinema: [8]

removal of valid "do not claim vandalism when it is not vandalism" warnings from userpage: [9] and [10] (using vandalism tools to revert the messages without any expln.)

I note the user claims to "hate anonymous editors" which may be an underlying cause of his issue, or perhaps he is unhappy with me that some of his college clubs were marked as non-notable as they failed to assert the importance of their subject. I would have preferred his anger to spill out as discussion rather than using "vandalism" warnings and reversions where they do not apply. I hope somebody can have a word... 86.31.156.253 15:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

According to your contribs, you just started editing today. And your edits are somewhat to be desired. See 86.31.156.253 Talk for more insite. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 15:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Some of 86.31.156.253's edits do leave a bit to be desired, but many are constructive and the ones that are not are simply because they don't follow the style guidelines. As you point out, this user has only begun editing today and so cannot be expected to know all of the style guidelines. I don't see anything (point it out if I'm wrong) that indicates vandalism. Please remember not to bite the newcomers. --Selket ^Talk 16:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Right then, so as far as I can see, both of you are attempting to make good faith edits, but reverting each other as vandalism. Purgatory Fubar, I'm a little disapointed in you reporting the IP to WP:AIV in an attempt to get them blocked, I would also suggest you let the red links stand, they allow users to see what articles they can create. Both of you I suggest take a short break from the computer, and come back with a clearer head. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The report was submitted due to the annon page blanking. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 00:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Except it wasn't page blanking it was a content dispute. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:23, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Page blanking from annon. Blanking out reversions by said annon using multiple IP's (happing now) on User talk:86.31.156.253

User:(aeropagitica) Got blanked User:Savant13 Got blanked User:Upholder Got blanked As well as me. This has nothing more to do with content dispute. not since I reported it to AIV. User:Savant13 also reported the page blanking. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 00:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Three points: 86.31.156.253 posted a comment [11] which he signed as being from me. I was the user that removed the speedy delete from Fightin' Texas Aggie Band that the IP editor placed. As far as I can tell from here, the IP editor was reported to WP:AIV by User:Savant13 ([12]). -- Upholder 17:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

see ryan postlethwaite removing false AIV notice by purgatory fubar and| aeropagitica removing incorrectly restored false AIV notice. User:Purgatory Fubar using AIV as a tool to win edit-wars is a strict no-no. Be very careful from now on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.144.47 (talk • contribs)

Any comment on why you signed a message left on Purgatory Fubar's talk page as if you were Upholder? Many of your other edits can be easily excused by assuming good faith, but that one is troubling. --OnoremDil 18:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

didnt know i did... but checking my history, it seems when i copy&pasted someone else's template i copy&pasted their username accidentally as well! oops ;)

i should also mention Upholder became very upset when i *dared* to put a notability tag on his apparently non-notable band's page, claiming the addition of the tag to be "bad faith" and "vandalism" ([13]) and angrily started issuing me vandalism warnings as a result [14] (claiming vandalism) [15] (again claiming vandalism), [16] - several more vandalism warnings. is this user simply unware of what constitutes vandalism, or is it a deliberate bad faith attack by a user angered about the question of notability of their favorite band?

I have no connection to Texas A&M University nor the Fightin' Texas Aggie Band. The notability of the band is covered by the entire first paragraph of the article and in addition the band has been awarded the Sudler Trophy, as I noted on the talk page for the article. I noticed the speedy delete because I have edited the article before, but I did not create it. Concerning your allegations that my warnings were placed in bad faith, adminsitrator (aeropagitica) noted that removing valid vandalism notices on your user talk page is in violation of Wikipedia policy [17]. -- Upholder 19:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Without commenting on the other issues, removing warnings has had community consensus for a number of months now. It is in line with our current policy and considered a sign that you read it. -M^ask?

20:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see where this community consensus is located. It has been my uderstanding that blanking warning templets was a blockable offense. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 21:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I would also note that I have not made any personal attacks but the IP editor in question has made personal attacks against me here in the comment this is in response to as well as on his talk page. -- Upholder 16:10, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• The same goes for me as well,The only one who has madepersonal attacks is the annon. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 00:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Impersonating User:Upholder time left on my talk page 15:53 [18] but signed it 15:44, not very smart [19] and know editing under another IP? Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 19:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The annon has resorted to Trolling via Sock puppetry to give the impression of more support for a viewpoint.

86.27.68.151 (talk · contribs) WHOIS report [20]

86.31.159.179 (talk · contribs)WHOIS report [21] 86.31.156.253 (talk · contribs) WHOIS report [22]

86.31.144.47 (talk · contribs)WHOIS report[23] 86.27.130.242 (talk · contribs) WHOIS report [[24]] All have had their hand in this. Not trying to assume bad faith here but my guess is that this annon is a banned user. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 18:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Having a non-static IP address doesn't equate to sockpuppetry. - Bobet 18:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It does when each IP is talking in the third person. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 18:47, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's take a walk. This was left by the annon (talking in the third voice fashion) at AmiDaniel VP Abuse.

• [25] - no explanation of random revert with vp given

VP does not allow for personal comment in the summary At least not that I am aware of.This delinking by annon is what started this. PF

you have failed to explain what the revert was for. vandalproof is for vandalism. can we assume, therefore, that you treated this edit ([26] my edit summary "undo some unnecessary linking") as vandalism ([27] your edit summary "Reverted edits by 86.31.156.253 (talk) to last revision (127941606) by LionheartX using VP") ? yes or no?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.3.64.139 (talk) 21:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

Vandalproof is not just for reverting vandalism but test edits and GFE that are not considered helpful. P.F

comment: actually it was these edits ([28] [29]) you seemed to take objection to. a merge on the "Texas A&M University Corps of Cadets" page from the "Senior boots" page based on the merge discussion at Talk:Senior boots. i had no objection to your edits there, though your reverts were later undone by other users, but after that, you began to stalk the address that dared to merge something (from somebody else's request), and began reverting legitimate edits. regarding "delinking legit links", as i explained in the edit summary, the links were unnecessary as the were already linked several lines above. i dont think i need to point out Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)#Overlinking and underlinking: what's the best ratio?. pleas explain why, therefore, you treated it as vandalism?

See this edit summary page to explain. P.F

• [30] user warning given with vp, despite no vandalism having occurred anywhere.

Test1 not vandal1 was given due to the delinking of legit link (wuxia) and (Hong Kong). At that point I was assuming good faith. PF

please expain how issuing a vandalism warning, using a vandalism tool, is assuming good faith. have you read WP:VPRF#Abuse? regarding "delinking legit links", as i explained in the edit summary, the links were unnecessary as they were already linked several lines above. i dont think i need to point out Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)#Overlinking and underlinking: what's the best ratio?.

Test1 templet is NOT a vandalism warning. P.F

• [31] attempt to discuss issue on user's talk page ignored and reverted using vp

User being civil went out the door with this "attempt to discuss issue". PF

did i read that right? WP:CIVIL NEVER "goes out the door". if you have been ignoring it, i seriously doubt your judgement. See WP:KETTLE. and please explain what you found so offensive about the comment on your user talkpage that you decided to revert it without acknowledgement or reply?

If any one else read that in conjuction with your edit they would know that you are the one who I was talking about. P.F

• [32] same

again

Removing 3RR notice as there was no 3RR, I simply reverted delinking of valid links as per above. PF

• [33] again removing attempted user talk page discussion using vp

Removed personal attacks. PF

• [34] using vandalism reversion with vp to revert non-vandalism edit on another article

Rollback edit by annon no test or warning was given, and later Nishkid64 (talk · contribs) did the same. (revert speedy tag from notable article) P.F

• [35] when the other user clears *their* user talk page suddenly its vandalism and he uses vp to revert

See user page link below. P.F

• [36] he issues a "last warning" to the user with vp

to be fair let's see he whole user page F.P

• [37] another article - vp revert to non-vandalism edit

Rollback annon removal of a disambiguation. No warning was given. P.F

• [38] another article - vp revert to non-vandalism edit

Revert unexplained removal of image with false edit summary. P.F (Vandalism) and user page blanking Final warning given. P.F

• [39] attempt to "block" the user as a vandal (subsequently removed by administrators [40] and given warning by User:Ryan Postlethwaite [41])

No warning was given to me by Ryan Postlethwaite (talk · contribs) See my above comment. P.F

• [42] removing valid warnings (abuse of vandalism templates) from user talkpage without expln, using vp revert

Revert Trollery P.F

• [43] - removing valid warnings from somebody else's talkpage without expln, using vp revert

Revert Trollery P.F

Update, annon is now moving my comment out of order of conversation. Even knowing full well that the comment was directed to another user as see here

Edit summary

Follow the evidence. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 19:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Disruptive editor Purgatory still not explaining his actions

Dear User:Purgatory Fubar,

making edits like this [44] while your edits are still being investigated for abuse is not wise given your current situation. your vandalproof privileges have already been revoked, and given that much of your current predicament is caused by unexplained reversions on the user talk page, doing so again seems mighty foolish. it seems you have still not learned any lessons from this episode about WP:CIVIL or WP:DICK or WP:AGF.

You have still not explained the reasons you made the edits that have caused this case to be raised:

1. why you used vandalproof reversion tools in an edit dispute [45]
2. why you assumed bad faith and claimed vandalism (a personal attack) [46]
3. why you used vandalproof to ignore and revert an attempt to discuss the edit issue on your user talk page [47]
4. why you then claimed that the attempt to discuss with you was "vandalism" and issued another warning[48]
5. why you again used vandalproof to revert your usertalk page in a renewed attempt to start a conversation [49]
6. but when someone other than yourself makes a reversion on their usertalk page, then its not ok [50]
7. despite the fact that removing warning has had community consensus for months now, as i'm sure you're aware, you chose to treat it as vandalism again [51]
8. again using vandalproof tool in an apparent edit dispute - here not even explaining what the edit dispute is [52]
9. and another throughly unexplained revert with vp [53]
10. here using AIV to attempt to win the edit war [54] (thankfully removed by diligent admins) - already received ryan's "slap on the wrist", yet i have still seen no explanation from Purgatory about why this was done ?
11. abusing vandalproof to revert usertalk warnings about "claiming vandalism when there is none" [55]
12. claiming "edits are somewhat to be desired" yet presenting no evidence of any vandalism [56]
13. snide insinuations [57], accusations being a troll [58], later claiming to have made "no personal attacks"
14. why did you choose to begin reverting the usertalk page AGAIN, despite all the comments in this ANI? [59]

its probably in your better interests to defend your actions here, rather than attempt to "shoot the messenger" (by the way, do you know what dynamic IP is? dont you think it would be prudent to understand such concepts to deal with vandalism?), this will reflect better on you in the long run. i honestly can't see any legitimate reason for the above, other than a complete screw-up, or maliciousness. if you can explain the rationale behind each of the above edits, which you have so far completely refused to do, i'd like to see it. if its a complete screw-up, then, hey, people make mistakes - in that case you should apologise and keep cool. but refusing to accept you have been incompetent, and have broken wikipolicy left, right and centre, has probably already blown your chances in any future adminship bid i'm sorry to say.

The following comment was moved here in an attempt to keep the chronological order of comments in sequence. The comment was not indented, so I assume it was no a direct reply to anybody, in which case it belongs here chronologically. User:Purgatory Fubar, I as you not to move it again. Thankyou.82.3.64.139 20:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

And the comments has again been moved by User:Purgatory Fubar (with edit summary "RVV"). I shall restore it as per my comment above. 82.3.64.139 21:21, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

And again Purgatory uses RVV in an edit dispute. Please read the italicised expln here before angrily screaming RVV and making edit summaries like this [60]. keep cool. 82.3.64.139 22:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Purgatory has now moved the text above this one for the fourth time. He has also failed to respond at all to the 15 specific points questioned above, and continues to protest that he has done absolutely nothing wrong. He appears to be grudgingly admitting treating an edit dispute as vandalism, using vandalproof inappropriately, using vandalism warnings inappropriately to intimidate an anon user, attempting to block a user as a vandal that he has been edit-warring with, breaking WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF, reverting and ignoring userpage discussion, but he refuses to accept any responsibility for his actions or offer any kind of apology. The question of whether his actions were mere incompetence, or maliciousness, remains open. The user has already been stripped of vandalprood privileges, has been warned about misuse of AIV, about removing redlinks, about issuing vandalism warnings for usertalk page edits, by other editors. Any future adminship bid has presumably also been scuppered by his actions here. His bitter comments here speak for themselves. I will now defer to administrators to take the appropriate course of action. Thankyou. 86.31.103.208 11:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Purgatory Fubar, Here's the guideline about removing warnings. See also full (=huge) discussion here. Hope this helps. Bishonen | talk 21:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

My bad, thanks for the heads up Bishonen. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 21:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment, that means [this] was for nothing? Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 21:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

User Purgatory Fubar has now been blocked from editing wikipedia, by administrator User:AGK. As the block notice is likely to be removed by Purgatory after the 24 hours, as it reflects negatively on him, the diff may be found here [61]. Nevertheless it will remain permanently on his user block log. Reason for the block was repeated vandalism. Hopefully when he returns his attitude to the encylopedia will have improved, and he will be prepared to contribute contructively.

User Purgatory, please note that blocks are a period to reflect, an opportunity to show understanding and and ability to act responsibly, and a period of time to let the matter be learned from. If you continue to refuse any responsibility for your disruptive actions to date, to apologise fully and frankly, or to show any humility, you will not only lose your vandalproof privileges, receive numerous warnings, be blocked, and further destroy any hopes of future adminship, but you will also be in severe danger of a long-term block. Bear that in mind. We have assumed incompetence on your part this time. That may not be the assumption a second time. 86.27.129.210 09:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

After reading this complicated mess, it is of my opinion that the anonymous editor should receive the same block for edit warring. Let's not have Wikipedia be a double standard.

---

Actions explained (P.F indicates my reply)

REPOSTED FROM ABOVE

Let's take a walk. This was left by the annon (talking in the third voice fashion) at AmiDaniel VP Abuse.

• [62] - no explanation of random revert with vp given

VP does not allow for personal comment in the summary At least not that I am aware of.This delinking by annon is what started this. PF

you have failed to explain what the revert was for. vandalproof is for vandalism. can we assume, therefore, that you treated this edit ([63] my edit summary "undo some unnecessary linking") as vandalism ([64] your edit summary "Reverted edits by 86.31.156.253 (talk) to last revision (127941606) by LionheartX using VP") ? yes or no?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.3.64.139 (talk) 21:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

Vandalproof is not just for reverting vandalism but test edits and GFE that are not considered helpful. P.F

comment: actually it was these edits ([65] [66]) you seemed to take objection to. a merge on the "Texas A&M University Corps of Cadets" page from the "Senior boots" page based on the merge discussion at Talk:Senior boots. i had no objection to your edits there, though your reverts were later undone by other users, but after that, you began to stalk the address that dared to merge something (from somebody else's request), and began reverting legitimate edits. regarding "delinking legit links", as i explained in the edit summary, the links were unnecessary as the were already linked several lines above. i dont think i need to point out Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)#Overlinking and underlinking: what's the best ratio?. pleas explain why, therefore, you treated it as vandalism?

See this edit summary page to explain. P.F

• [67] user warning given with vp, despite no vandalism having occurred anywhere.

Test1 not vandal1 was given due to the delinking of legit link (wuxia) and (Hong Kong). At that point I was assuming good faith. PF

please expain how issuing a vandalism warning, using a vandalism tool, is assuming good faith. have you read WP:VPRF#Abuse? regarding "delinking legit links", as i explained in the edit summary, the links were unnecessary as they were already linked several lines above. i dont think i need to point out Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)#Overlinking and underlinking: what's the best ratio?.

Test1 templet is NOT a vandalism warning. P.F

• [68] attempt to discuss issue on user's talk page ignored and reverted using vp

User being civil went out the door with this "attempt to discuss issue". PF

did i read that right? WP:CIVIL NEVER "goes out the door". if you have been ignoring it, i seriously doubt your judgement. See WP:KETTLE. and please explain what you found so offensive about the comment on your user talkpage that you decided to revert it without acknowledgement or reply?

If any one else read that in conjuction with your edit they would know that you are the one who I was talking about. P.F

• [69] same

again

Removing 3RR notice as there was no 3RR, I simply reverted delinking of valid links as per above. PF

• [70] again removing attempted user talk page discussion using vp

Removed personal attacks. PF

• [71] using vandalism reversion with vp to revert non-vandalism edit on another article

Rollback edit by annon no test or warning was given, and later Nishkid64 (talk · contribs) did the same. (revert speedy tag from notable article) P.F

• [72] when the other user clears *their* user talk page suddenly its vandalism and he uses vp to revert

See user page link below. P.F

• [73] he issues a "last warning" to the user with vp

to be fair let's see he whole user page F.P

• [74] another article - vp revert to non-vandalism edit

Rollback annon removal of a disambiguation. No warning was given. P.F

• [75] another article - vp revert to non-vandalism edit

Revert unexplained removal of image with false edit summary. P.F (Vandalism) and user page blanking Final warning given. P.F

• [76] attempt to "block" the user as a vandal (subsequently removed by administrators [77] and given warning by User:Ryan Postlethwaite [78])

No warning was given to me by Ryan Postlethwaite (talk · contribs) See my above comment. P.F

• [79] removing valid warnings (abuse of vandalism templates) from user talkpage without expln, using vp revert

Revert Trollery P.F

• [80] - removing valid warnings from somebody else's talkpage without expln, using vp revert

Revert Trollery P.F

Update, annon is now moving my comment out of order of conversation. Even knowing full well that the comment was directed to another user as see here

Edit summary

Follow the evidence. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 19:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Abusing of references

User:Tankred deleted a section from the 2006 Slovak-Hungarian diplomatic affairs article, under this: "A source added by a later banned user proved not to be accurate. Caplovic was not a deputy prime minister in 2002."

The incriminated section:

"Dusan Čaplovič, the vice-president of the Smer party, has called for the banning of singing the Hungarian national anthem in Catholic Churches, claiming that this is disloyal to Slovakia. Even Robert Fico, current prime minister and leader of the Smer party, has made controversial statements in this regard as well."

In reality, the references, as the whole section was NOT added by User:VinceB, whom the "banned user" refers to.

It was just moved from Anti-Hungarian sentiment to this article, by infed banned User:VinceB. Into Anti-hungarian sentiment article, indef banned (for two month - LOL) User:Juro moved [82] from Slovakization article.

So in fact, this section was added into Slovakization article, as well as the refences, by User:Alphysikist [83].

The fisrt parto of deleting reason (A source added by a later banned user proved not to be accurate. Caplovic was not a deputy prime minister in 2002.) is obviously wrong then. About inaccuracy: as you see, the deleted section does not claim, what Tankred states. Section says, Caplovic was "vice-president of the Smer party". No "Caplovic was deputy minister" is written in that, nor dates, so "Caplovic was not a deputy prime minister in 2002." part of the deleting reason is an obvious misleading for the recent changes patrollers.

All in all

• It was fully added by another user, User:Alphysikist, not a banned one.
• The section does not claim that Caplovic was prime minister (or any similar). Nor mentioning 2002 or any date, and nor in that kind of a context, so it is, as deleting reason is an obvious misleading.
• Tankred claimed many times before, that he's not speaking Hungarian, but here, claimes the sources are inaccurate. Well, they're not. http://www.stars21.com/ - a good page or text translator. for en-hu-en.

Please, block him, this was the 7th time, he abused references. --195.56.28.249 00:18, 44 May 2007 (UTC)

Banned for leetspeak?

What the fuck. Since when do we ban people for using "leetspeak" in their names? [84] I find it hard to believe that this is acceptable. RFerreira 06:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:USERNAME#Random. {{usernameblock}} gives instructions on how to change the username. They're not banned; account creation was not disabled so they can just make a new account if they'd rather not bother to change the name. ··coelacan 06:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I've unblocked. There's nothing in the policy against leetspeak. --Carnildo 06:32, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

No, using numbers in place of letters is not "random". In fact, it is rather commonplace, especially when you are competing for a unique username and over 1,000,000 of them are already taken. Thanks Carnildo for your assistance with this -- hopefully we haven't lost a valuable contributor as a result of this mix up. RFerreira 06:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Just "over 1,000,000"? Try "over 4,000,000": Wikipedia has 47,399,258 usernames defined. -- Ben ^TALK/_HIST 08:03, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

:I would guess that the block was based not on leet but on the apparent reference to religious figures, not just "God" but "1llah" (why the final h?).Proabivouac 09:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[sardonically] It's probably because the final "h" changes the vowel sound preceding it, changing the leet translation from "Godzillu" to "Godzilluh," a homophone for "Godzilla." Good morning, Wikipedia. =)--Dynaflow 09:09, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I thought so. I don't think this is religious reference, more like one to a monster trashing Tokyo...Moreschi ^Talk 09:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Hell, I'd worship something like that. Raptor Jesus and the Flying Spaghetti Monster haven't been returning my calls lately anyway. --Dynaflow 09:14, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Raptor Jesus is displeased. Where is your god now????⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 10:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I stand immensely corrected, and ashamed of my unfamiliarity with the conventions of leet.Proabivouac 17:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The Smithsonian, I presume. The FSM might still be in the back of my fridge, though in what condition, I could not tell you. --Dynaflow 10:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Username policy states that using characters that look like the intended character but aren't is discouraged, given its abuse in the past. Another page disputes this. However, I could be wrong, as I read both a long time ago. – AstroHurricane001^{(Talk+Contribs+Ubx)(+sign here+How's my editing?)} 18:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

This is the first paragraph under Inappropriate usernames.

"Wikipedia does not allow usernames that are misleading, harassing, or offensive - both in English and in other languages, as well as misspellings and substitutions thereof such as through Leetspeak. In borderline cases, you will be asked to choose a new username; in egregious cases, your account will simply be permanently blocked" Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 19:23, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure, but this wasn't offensive even when translated out of Leetspeak. Unless you dislike bad monster films. Moreschi ^Talk 19:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Could be misleading. There is a user with the name Godzilla spelled normal Godzilla. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 19:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that's stretching it a bit. They haven't exactly titled themselves M0reschi or something. Moreschi ^Talk 19:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it could be misleading and or confusing if you were to address one or the other. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 19:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Since when did we start spelling Godzilla with zeros and ones??--293.xx.xxx.xx 04:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess I should be glad that my own username has been grandfathered in. I doubt there's any special pleading that I chose it so that one could type it into Google & see all of my postings in the websites I frequent. -- llywrch 22:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Such usernames should be handled on a case by case basis. See for instance User:Jimbo WaIes.--Kirby♥time 05:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

12-year-old user?

While on vandal/username patrol, I spotted this on the talk page of new user Mooshka28 (talk · contribs):

She shouldn't be using this site; she's too young as of yet--can someone take a look? Blueboy96 15:24, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Unless there's user-conduct problems, users of all ages are welcome on Wikipedia. 75.62.7.22 15:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I can name quite a few users in good standing who are "underage" as you call it. All users are welcome to edit wikipedia, regardless of their age. ~ Magnus animum ∵ ∫ φ γ 15:55, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Users of all ages are welcome on Wikipedia as long as they can edit responsibly. That this particular user is not, by reason of age, automatically too young is reflected in the fact that I recently nominated an editor of the same age for administrator status. However, it is also clear that this particular young editor is revealing far too much personal identifying information online (see generally, WP:CHILD and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Protecting children's privacy). I have removed the information and counseled her accordingly. Newyorkbrad 16:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Young users should not be banned from Wikipedia. If they were, I wouldn't be typing this now. However, this user is disclosing personal information which is a violation of WP:CHILD, as Brad said. --TeckWiz is now R ^ParlateContribs_@(Let's go Yankees!) 16:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Young users should not be banned from Wikipedia because sometimes they have a lot of knowledge to give out to Wikipedia and can edit responsibly. On the other case, if one person has created an account to impersonate an underage person solely to harass Wikipedians, then that one person should be immediately banned. Probably this user is nieve about Wikipedia (like many other newcomers) and we should assume good faith because who knows if she could learn from her mistakes or not?--PrestonH^{(Review Me!) • (Sign Here!)} 17:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

NO one seemed to be calling for a ban, but for attention, which NYB has taken care of. Nothing more to see here. ThuranX 17:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

"She shouldn't be using this site; she's too young as of yet" would suggest more than attention. Also does someone want to remove the personal information above? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 17:14, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I blanked the quote. I think that should be sufficient unless anyone wants to oversight it. Wouldn't recommend anyone trying to delete and restore ANI without those revisions. Wikipedia might just stop. Will (aka Wimt) 17:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose bannage. According to my innacurate estimates, there are about 100 000 regular editors younger than she is that edit constructively and do not violate policy and do not vandalise wikipedia and therefore should not be banned. I also estimate, innacurately of course, that among those 100 000 editors, about 200 of those are administrators. (Cute 1 4 u was banned because she did not regularly make good edits, I am assuming, so she is not within the 100 000 I mentioned) I also estimate that, innacurately of course, that there are about 150 000 constructive editors 13 and under, 350 000 constructive editors 18 and under, 500 000 constructive editors 25 and under, 1 000 000 constructive editors 50 and under, and about 1 500 000 constructive editors total, out of about 5 000 000 users (including editless and anons). Also I estimate 75 000 constructive editors 10 and under, 20 000 constructive editors 7 and under, and 800 constructive editors 3 and under, innaccurate of course. Also, WP:CHILD did not reach consensus. Thanks. – AstroHurricane001^{(Talk+Contribs+Ubx)(+sign here+How's my editing?)} 17:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Chill mate - I don't think anyone here would be in favour of banning this user or any other minor on account of their age. What is sensible though is to remove excess personal details as has been done here. No point taking unnecessary risks in that regard. Will (aka Wimt) 18:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I have a feeling Blueboy thought that COPPA applied on Wikipedia (if it did then we would probably have to disable anon editing and make new users give their birthdate and deny registration to those under 13). "Most of the terms of COPPA apply only to websites and organizations operated for commercial purposes and usually exempt recognized non-profit organizations." (taken from the article). But administrators do remove personal information made public. Funpika 18:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

@TekWiz/R: Just to clarify, WP:CHILD is an essay, not a guideline or policy. Anchoress 00:28, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The ArbCom ruling upon which the essay is based is an official ruling and must be followed. ~ Magnus animum ∵ ∫ φ γ 02:15, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Is that actually true? Anchoress 02:27, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The arbcom ruling, yes, but not WP:CHILD or any other formulation of the proposal yet written. The arbcom ruling says that issues are to be dealt with case-by-case (common practice being to tell them to take down the information) and that it would be nice if we actually could write a policy on the matter, but that is about it. --tjstrf talk 02:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

That is absolutely true, but we should also bear in mind that the portion of the proposal suggesting deletion of personal identifying information posted by under-13 users has pretty widespread support, and was endorsed to an extent by the ArbCom decision I cited. Newyorkbrad 00:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Were you replying to me NYB? If so, I agree, but so what? Anchoress 02:26, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Contrary to popular belief, I am not an expert on 12-year-old girls, but I'd guess this is more likely a prank than autobiographical revelation. Whether it was intended at our expense or that of the named adolescent, who knows/cares... —freak(talk) 18:20, May. 5, 2007 (UTC)

BAN HER!! BAN HER!! *runs off giggling like a schoolgirl*--293.xx.xxx.xx 04:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It could be used as an excuse by vandals in the future. "My little brother was on my wikipedia account" blah. Bulldog123 11:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

What is it with us and children? There was a vandalized article on here last week that people refused to link to because *ahem* the subject is underage. Does that make any sense? Luigi30 (Taλk) 12:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Ongoing issue that needs to be resolved

It started here: Talk:List of Virtual Console games (North America)#Wii Points doesn't need to be listed, a month ago. A short-lived poll by some users solved nothing (plus Wikipedia isn't a democracy, polls don't control content in articles). A few days ago I made this: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games#Wii Points: (to list or to not list). To sum it up (if people don't want to read all of those mass discussions): two video game systems (Xbox 360 and Wii) have download services for games. The download prices are listed on several articles. Myself and others are against listing the prices, while another group of editors are for the prices staying in the articles. I really don't think Wikipedia should be used as a price guide, as there is plenty of other sites around that are used for that. RobJ1981 21:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The articles the prices are listed on: List of PlayStation Network games, Xbox Live Arcade, Wii Points, Virtual Console and List of Virtual Console games (all 4 regions listed on that page). Wikipedia shouldn't be turned into a price guide, due to prices for games being different. Prices are different for lots of things! It doesn't mean an online encyclopedia should be used for this content. RobJ1981 22:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Prices change over time, this smacks of recentism. ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 22:22, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Not with online online products like this. A song released on iTunes 2 years ago is the same price it is now. TJ Spyke 23:51, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you quote a reliable source for that assertion you've just made? Carcharoth 02:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Lose the prices and add guidance to what Wikipedia is not. Carcharoth 23:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I would just remove the prices right now, but I know people would just revert my edits. Can an admin resolve this and determine a solution? RobJ1981 03:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a content dispute, so the editors involved need to sort it out. Admins only need to get involved when bad-faith editing is going on and an edit war is in progress. I've removed the prices on some of those articles and added my voice to those calling for the prices to be removed, so let's see what happens next. If discussion ensues and consensus is reached, fine. If not, well, then things will be a bit clearer. I left the Microsoft Points and Wii Points stuff alone, as though those are effectively prices as well, the articles on the credit systems are interesting. Still, quoting prices in 'points' is still recentism. Ultimately, they could all be removed as unsourced material. Ask those adding the prices to find reliable, stable references for the prices. My guess is there are none, because prices change. Carcharoth 12:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the "short lived poll", the poll has been open for over a MONTH and Rob was the only one who objected. The Wii Points pages are sourced (look at the references section of List of Virtual Console games (North America), it has links to Nintendo/Hudson Soft/Sega's websites on VC games, all of which have prices). I especially object to remove the Japanese VC one since the prices are really varied. The prices are a vital part of the service (same with Xbox Live Arcade and PlayStation Network), and are just as encyclopedic as the developer or ESRB rating. Does Rob want to have the ESRB rating removed just because most are rated E? TJ Spyke 23:51, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Would you like me to quote some comments from that poll? Try this one on for size:

"It's handy for people like me that want the know the price before I go to the Wii Shop channel to download the game. Also because when I'm at work my internet is extremely filtered. Why is this even an issue??"

I could advertise that poll widely and then we would really see how many people would !vote to remove the points listings. Anyway, talking about the poll misses the point. ESRB ratings and the name of the developers are quite different from giving the price of a game, even if the price is in Wii Points or Microsoft Points. The price of a product (be it a retail video game, a downloadable video game, a CD, a book, an item of clothing, or whatever) is a perfect example of ephemeral information that has no place on Wikipedia. In five years time, that pricing information will be useless and misleading. And before you suggest updating the price as it changes, or that the prices in 'points' will remain constant, that also misses the point. The key question you have to answer is why prices should be listed at all in the first place? There is nothing wrong with a short sentence saying that the games were sold using a 'points' system, rather than 'real' money, but listing the individual prices is close to being a form of advertising. I would ask anyone who has an opinion on this to contribute to the discussion at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Not a sales catalogue or price guide. Carcharoth 02:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

ESRB and the other things are fine, so don't assume I just want the whole table gone, that's just rude. Prices aren't a vital part of the article: as Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a price guide. TJ Spyke is the perfect example, on why this situation needs an admin to resolve it. TJ (along with most people that are for listing the prices) refuse to listen to how it violates policies, and keep bringing up a poll that was done in the past. RobJ1981 17:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Which policies exactly does this violate? -- MisterHand 20:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

How about "Wikipedia is not an advertising service"? Where do you draw the line between giving (with sources) a manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP), and opening Wikipedia to charges of advertising the price of a product? Carcharoth 22:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

1)It's not advertising and 2)That's not a policy. Rob, the Wii Points price is just as vital as the developer or ESRB ratings. Also, there is no evidence the price of games wil change since that hasn't happened with Xbox Live Arcade games of iTunes songs. TJ Spyke 04:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

(1) In what way is it not advertising?; (2) Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not specifically mentions advertising several times. It doesn't specifically mention prices, but that appears to be an omission. At the time that document was written, it was probably thought to be too obvious that lists of current prices are not an encyclopedic piece of information. In my opinion, prices are acceptable as either well-sourced and discussed historical information (eg. 1920s prices of Ford Model Ts), or as notable one-off prices (eg. an expensive diamond/artwork etc.), but you are defending an indiscriminate list and giving current prices for products on sale on the open market. This, if not advertising, is perilously close. One thing I am surprised at though is the lack of response from others. Does no one else reading this noticeboard agree with my views? I realise this is not the right place to debate this, which is why I have started the disscussion here. Again, I would urge the discussion to be continued over there. Carcharoth 09:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Merely listing prices (and in this case, the prices are not even in real world currency) does not constitute advertising. As I see it, there is no policy being violated here -- it's a content dispute, pure and simple. And to quote the top of this very page: "This page is not part of our Dispute Resolution process." -- MisterHand 13:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Repeated vandalism in M113 Armored Personnel Carrier by anon user

The article M113 Armored Personnel Carrier oftens gets vandalized by an anon user whom I have reason to believe is the same person due to the nature of content that is added. Most recently, this user has used the IP address 24.214.146.99. Would it be possible to only allow edits on that page by registered users to make the process a little more difficult for the vandal? --Edward Sandstig 00:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

They haven't made any more edits for some time now. If they come back, you might want to request a block on the IP or a semi-protect on the page. bibliomaniac15 00:58, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

This also looks a lot like a content dispute--VectorPotential^Talk 01:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Isn't there a separate board to report vandals? AlexanderPar 08:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes there is, but the problem here is that one individual keeps editing multiple articles across Wikipedia to further his own agenda. His last changes were a few days ago, so I decided I'd ask here first. --Edward Sandstig 15:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I Agree with Vector Potential -- to an outsider, this looks more like a content dispute than vandalism. The three revert rule prohibits multiple back-and-forth changes, but that doesn't seem to have happened here either. Try asking the individual to supply sources for the statement. Best, --Shirahadasha 13:54, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Would it be considered a content dispute if I was openly campaigning to rename the M16 as the "Peashooter" for example, then decided to log onto Wikipedia and replace all instances of M16 in multiple articles with "M16 Peashooter"? Doing that, wouldn't I be using Wikipedia to push my own agenda and effectively making the term "M16 Peashooter" the de facto term through common usage? --Edward Sandstig 15:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Only if the population of M16 Peashooters triples. Luigi30 (Taλk) 12:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced material/vandalism, 3rr/edit warring, ownership of articles and personal attack problems with Gon4z

Gon4z continues to revert any updates to the following articles: Military of Albania, Albanian Land Forces Command, Albanian Air Force, Albanian Naval Defense Forces. Also his information is outdated, unsourced and he has done about 15 reverts in the three last days. He doesn't read any discussion post: here, here, here, here and here, but resorts to threats, insults and user page vandalism here. Some of his remarks to other editors:

on my (noclador) talkpage:

• "I will take further actions" Gon4z 23:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
• "you did not citise anything its all crap you stright out deleted everything just because you are an anti Albanian dont mean you ahve to go around spreading propaganda you so called contribution of deeting articles are not wealcomed" Gon4z 19:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
• "ok I suggest that unless you have a real contribution you should not edit the article.... tahnk you" (unsigned)
• "you are delusional" Gon4z 15:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

on user MrMacMan talkpage:

• "I don’t know if you hate Albanians or what but pls do not edit that article unless you have sources from 2006 or 2007 I have been trying to work hard and fix that article I don’t need some one coming to ruin and spread propaganda just because they have a problem with Albanians" Gon4z 20:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
• "Las time I checked it was you vandalising the Albanian military articles using racist anti albanian websites as source i have cetise my figures." Gon4z 02:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
• "I not sure what you are considering an attack, I ahve not attacked you once I have just simplly replied to your comment, it is not nice to play the victim take it like a man you sources are not correct and are ruining the article." (unsigned, but once gain by Gon4z)

in the edit summary of Albanian Land Forces Command

• "I am clearly the only one here providing proof from my figures unlike you two whore are spreading bate propaganda"

My information is based on the following sources:

• The World Defence Almanac 2006, page 95, Mönch Publishing Group; Bonn 2006;
• The IISS Military Balance Report 2006- 2007, page 80, Routledge Publishing; 106 edition (May 24, 2006)
• SIPRI Yearbook 2006, Oxford University Press, June 2006.
• Centre for SouthEast European Studies: Albania’s Armed Forces- 2002 Data]
• Bonn International Center for Conversion
• Albanian Land Forces Command

All this is ignored by Gon4z, who bases his information on the same homepage he criticizes as "Greek anti Albanian website". Also the same kind of edit war and personal attacks is waged by him at the article Serbian Air Force, where he keeps reducing the number of active Serbian airplanes, substitutes the correct grammatical tense with the present tense, vandalises the syntax and tells a fellow editor: "this is the last time i will warn you get a profile because if not then your IP address will be suspended from editing any article" Gon4z 23:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC) Furthermore, according to user MacGyverMagic Gon4z is a “editor who has a history of vandalism, POV and unsourced edits.” comment can be found here.

As Gon4z in continuous violation and a repeat offender of the following Wikipedia rules:

• Unsourced material
• Vandalism
• Three revert rule
• Edit warring and
• Personal attacks against at least three fellow editors

I strongly urge to block him for an extended period of time. noclador 03:28, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I can't say that I am not involved in this issue with this user and today I reported the editor to the Admin 3RR board Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR#User:Gon4z_reported_by_User:MrMacMan_.28Result:24h.29 which resulted in his/her 24 hour block. I have really tried to get this editor to explain his reverts and his rational for using his older sources and his actual, apparent lack of sources. I think that this user has disregarded the newer and better sources put before him and has completely ignored all information not coming from his own older sources. When bringing up this newer information he ignores us and makes accusations that I'm biased or using other information that he says is biased (which I wasn't using anyway). I don't understand why he insists without explaining his reasoning so I have to conclude he is not acting in good faith. If this user was explaining his rational for reverting the changes this would be a content dispute but his disregard on this dispute and instead he's been very unresponsive to any comments that have been made to him. I would also say that his blocking period be expanded. MrMacMan ^Talk 07:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I brought this out of the archive because no one ever addressed the issue Noclador brought up for discussion. I would like to see someone else look over this users edits and tell us what action or their opinion is. MrMacMan ^Talk 19:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not excessively optimistic in that regard. I've previously reported Gun4z twice on this page for exactly the same reason and in both cases nothing happened. As I said back then, Gun4z's incivility doesn't seem to confined only to his dealings with Noclador, but also to other users. Valentinian ^{T / C} 22:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That's horrible. While is why I hope to get some response about this user here and so it doesn't get archived again. MrMacMan ^Talk 00:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

He was referring to when he posted this and no one made any comments about it -- it sits in the archive uncommented upon. MrMacMan ^Talk 05:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The first post got the same fate. Valentinian ^{T / C} 08:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh geez I didn't even think to search that far back for another incident. Wow. Can someone please notice this Incident report(s) now? MrMacMan ^Talk 09:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

User:RMc update

See my archived report. He just removed my last notice from his talk page. This is not the action of someone committed to getting along with others. Daniel Case 05:58, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Misbehavior continues. This time he removed both the original discussion and the {{blankown}} warning from his talk page. Daniel Case 16:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

You know, folks, I'm getting a little tired of snooty little Danny Case ordering me about and then crying to daddy. I let him have his way on South Blooming Grove and Michigan Corners, New York, but, no, that's not enough...apparently, his little feelings are bruised. Here's an idea: LEAVE ME ALONE AND STOP HARASSING ME. And it's called a life...get one. RMc 16:55, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

No, the Wikipedia community and its collegiality are injured by your actions. They demand satisfaction, given that you have already been blocked for this behavior once before. If you want to engage in personal attacks on this page, you've earned whatever happens next. Daniel Case 17:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing the "Wikipedia community" isn't as thin-skinned as you are, ace. Good grief. Won't somebody please get Case off my daniel...? RMc 00:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Users with truly thick skins don't try to cover up their past misdeeds as much as you seem to. Wikipedia is not, in any event, about who can shout the loudest or out-revert the other person. There are plenty of other websites for that. If you continue to treat WP:NPA and WP:CIV as if they only apply to other people, I will continue to press this. I have, in fact, contacted some of the same admins and users you dealt with before to look at this situation. Daniel Case 03:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Good gravy, man...do you ever read your own posts? "Misbehaviour continues"..."collegiality injured"..."demand satisfaction"...come on. You're doing a perfect impersonation of a pompous, braying jackass. If anyone's violating NPA and CIV (not to mention "don't make threats" and "don't be a dick") it's you, not me. Chill out. Please. RMc 10:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Technically speaking, he's not obligated to keep your comments on his talk page if he doesn't want them there. It's not necessarily polite to remove talk messages without archiving, but it's not against the rules, and everything will remain in the page history anyway if people need to find it later. I also have to say as a third-party observer that Daniel's attitude here seems to be more confrontational than might strictly be necessary, under the circumstances. I suggest that you both let it drop, and just go about your business, though you're free to take or leave that advice as you see fit. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 13:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'm willing to let this drop if Mr. Case is. [/olive branch] RMc 14:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Fine, this is the first time RMc has been willing to climb down and stop being confrontational. Live and let live. Daniel Case 20:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• sigh* Had to get one last shot in, eh? Whatever. RMc 11:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

User:ParthianShot

• Note - Many links have been commented in this discussion because a website has been blacklist at meta. Please view section in edit mode to see the links. - Aksi_great (talk) 10:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I came across ParthianShot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) when I had blocked him some time back. After going through his contributions I saw that he had uploaded many images from a website called . is the website of the "Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies" at "School of Oriental and African Studies" at the University of London. All the images were properly linked to the site and the site had the appropriated GFDL message at the bottom of the page. So far so good.

But digging a bit deeper, it looks like ParthianShot may have knowingly uploaded copyrighted images and inserted copyvios in wikipedia articles. The CAIS is nothing but a forum or group at the SOAS. By their own admission the website is no longer related to the school. . In fact, the website is run by a person called Shapour Suren-Pahlav.

This site has repeatedly been identified as hosting copyvio and plagiarised material, as well as some pseudo-scholarly fringe stuff written by its owner. Much of its content is articles mirrored from "Encyclopedia Iranica" (a respectable scholarly resource, but copyrighted). Others have apparently been plagiarised from other sources. Here's a complaint on the web: [85], [86], [87], [88]. Here's another fishy case, about an image that was first stolen by Wikipedia from a third-party site, then stolen from Wikipedia together with its article by CAIS, then borrowed back into Wikipedia as allegedly copyrighted and released by CAIS.

The way the images are uploaded is identical. ParthianShot claims to have corresponded with Shapour Suren-Pahlav. The webpage adds a note about the correspondence at the bottom of the page. See bottom of . ParthianShot claims to be Khodayar Bahrami and has vigorously denied being Shapour Suren Pahlav, the owner of the CAIS site. He has also vigorously defended its value as a source and external link.

But ParthianShot is not his original account name. He was earlier called Surena and got his name changed. Surena was an identified sockpuppeteer. See the case at RfCU here. There is more. One of his sock accounts, oddly, was named User:Shapour SP, i.e. obviously "Shapour Suren Pahlav". The website has been linked to as an EL or source, or a source of images, in a huge lot of Wikipedia articles: [89]. Most of these links have been inserted by User:ParthianShot/Surena. Both accounts also made many edits to the article "Suren-Pahlav Clan" [90]. Surena/ParthianShot has also on some occasions uploaded images described as authored by "Shapour Suren-Pahlav" and simultaneously as "pd-self" or "gfdl-self", and later "corrected" that license description. See for example Image:Suren-Pahlav.JPG Uploaded 25 December 2006 by User:Zoroastrian, one of the confirmed socks of Surena/ParthianShot. The licensing disclaimer notes User:Zoroastrian as author of the work.

In light of all this evidence I conclude that ParthianShot is none other than Shapour Suren-Pahlav who runs the website cais. The website has committed copyvios which are being subtely inserted into wikipedia through bogus emails exchanged being the "two" people. So I propose that we delete all the images uploaded by the user and possibly blacklist the external link to the website so that no more copyright violations are inserted into wikipedia. Action must also be taken against ParthianShot a.k.a. Shapour SP. Maybe a long block for trying to deceive wikipedia and violating out image upload rules is in order. - Aksi_great (talk) 07:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, it may be suspicious, and yet I see no conclusive evidence that connects the two. Bear in mind that Shapour is common name in Persian speaking countries, Suren Pahlav is the name of historic clan, and Shapour Suren Pahlav is a historic figure that walked on this earth about 2000 years ago. Many people pick their usernames based on their heroes' names. AlexanderPar 08:51, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

  Yes. I do understand that people do use usernames based on heroes, but in this case the evidence is too strong. A user who has used a sock called Shapour SP inserting links, using images and corresponding regularly with the owner of a website also called Shapour SP. Also consider that there are 507 (!) links to the CAIS website from wikipedia. Most of them added by PS. Surely the evidence is too strong. - Aksi_great (talk) 09:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

  Aksi is citing as evidence of wrong-doing by CAIS, and as we can see CAIS had corrected the error a long time ago . ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 13:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Regardless of the names involved, it looks like Aksi_great has uncovered enough evidence to call into question any copyright claimed by CAIS. The safest thing to do, in my opinion, would be to delete the lot of the CAIS images -- Samir 09:06, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• It is obvious that Aksi have taken this matter quite personally [91], [92], [93]! Aksi has banned me unfairly [94] for only "ONE RV" - then he went further and falsely accused me of sockpuppetry [95] – his accusation confirmed to be false [96] and the extension was overturned [97]. It is quite evident that Aksi is being influenced by his compatriots Fullstop as was observed by MediaLady [98], [99]. It is quite sad to experience an Admin has taken resolute to these kind of childish behaviours. However, I am not the SSP as he falsely claims, and as I have advised Aksi before if he has any concerns regarding CAIS he should take it to them directly [100]! Nonetheless, after studying Aksi’s contributions, apparently he is also in direct contact with Behnam! Behnam who is also perusing my presence here [101] had discussion with Aksi in past about me [102], [ ], has recently deleted my contributions, interestingly Aksi has also left a tag [103] on one the images in question that Behnam has already objected [104] – however there no record of any discussion about this between these two in any of the discussion pages – but all of sudden Aksi places a tag there similar to Behnam's concern! This demonstrates that Aksi and Behnam are also in direct contact with each other outside Wikipedia! In any case, in CAIS defence, it is a respectable website, and contrary to Aksi claim of they “stealing” articles from other sources, in this case Wikipedia is guilty as charged too! However, how do we know that they have published their “mirrored articles” as Aksi put it without permission from the poriginal source – and also at the bottom of their WebPages all the source is being mentioned, or by clicking on the name of the authors! Number of contributors here such as those Islamic Fundamentalists namely “Behnam” as well as well as Zoroastrian orthodox namely “Fullstop” are opposing CAIS because, it exposes the destruction of pre-Islamic sites by the Islamic Regime , , etc, and also advocates conversion to Zoroastrianism – and unfortunate Aksi blindly has fallen to their tarp, and his naivety got the worst in him! Nonetheless, I believe Aksi should be investigated for breaching the Wikipedia rules and regulations – he is obviously having private email exchanges with other users namely Fullstop, The Behnam and possibly more. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 09:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure whether you understand the issue, ParthianShot. Despite your claim that CAIS is a respectable website, Aksi has uncovered evidence that some of the material on this website is of questionable copyright. This really calls into question the copyright of CAIS images that are uploaded onto Wikipedia under GFDL, as one cannot trust CAIS's assertion that these images are licensed under GFDL. -- Samir 09:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I do appreciate your concerns, but how do we know that the images from CAIS are copyvio as being claimed by "Aksi, Fullstop and Behnam triangle"? ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 09:59, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Aksi identified 3 separate issues with cais-soas.com and copyright: mirroring Encyclopedia Iranica, the plagiarism of the article as mentioned on public.kubsu.ru, and the Babak image. In my opinion, that is enough to call into question the copyright of anything uploaded onto Wikipedia from cais-soas.com. We do not assume good faith on issues of image copyright; if there is a question that an image claimed to be GFDL licensed is not free use, it needs to be deleted -- Samir 10:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

        This is the problem with ParthianShot. Whenever I try to engage him in a discussion about the images he has uploaded he either tells me to write to he website or comes up with silly conspiracy theories. I have already said that I was reviewing the images uploaded by you. That is why I came across that image without a source. Now he is saying that just because the bottom of their website mentions source, they are not violating copyrights. Also, please do not call wikipedia editors Islamic Fundamentalists. Please see WP:NPA. You will be blocked the next time you say something like that. - Aksi_great (talk) 10:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

        • Please spare me playing innocent card here - You have never tried to engage in any discussion with me; only thing that you have done so far were false accusations and unfair block which was later overturned! ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 12:15, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

          I don't know what you call this then. - Aksi_great (talk) 15:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

PS. Aksi claims that after a painstaking investigation and studying my contributions, he concluded that me and SSP are the same people – interesting to recall the same claim by Aksi’s friend, Fullstop who accused of the same in past [105]. This is another evidence for private contact between these two, and Aksi receiving instruction form his compatriot friend! ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 10:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a final warning to you. Please do not bring my nationality into question. If you cannot reply to my accusations without bringing my nationality and others religions into question then please don't write anything. - Aksi_great (talk) 10:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Aksi: Please do not evade the observation regarding your breach of Admin rights by manoeuvring and redirecting the dispute to different matters and showing yourself as a victim here – however, your nationality is NOT under question, BUT your evidential-affiliation with FullStop outside Wikipedia as well as your personal attacks on me and false accusations! ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 12:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the real-life identity of ParthianShot, the web site is a proven host of both pictures and text in violation of others' copyrights, and deceptively posts a GFDL license statement. As such, I would not object to a de facto blacklisting of text and photos hosted on that web site. Thatcher131 15:36, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Thatcher - Two things - 1. as I asked you before [106] on what bases you are claiming that CAIS is in violation of others' copyrights? Please provide us with your evidence -- I hope you realize that accusation and assumption are easy to declare, providing proof is totally different matter, as you have experienced in recent case [107] with MedianLady. 2. Also I hope your judgment in this case is not being colluded with our previous dispute [108]. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 16:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

ParthianShot, you appear to have got it the wrong way round. Aski great has shown above that there is a significant reason to doubt the copyright information at CAIS. It is not up to Thatcher131 or anyone else to prove that these images are a violation of copyright, it is up to you as the uploader to prove that they are not in violation. Until that time it would seem sensible to me to remove the potentially offending material. Will (aka Wimt) 18:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• • Dear Will - First, thank you for your mature and civil behaviour. Second, with all due respect, I have not got it wrong at all - I do not wish to go through it again about Aksi’s irresponsible and reckless behaviour, as I'm sure you can observe the above entries. His problem is not the images, but it is with me - just please observe his latest action ([109]) as he deleted all my contributions! Do you still thing it is all about the images? ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 18:13, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
• Here's one more image which clearly shows that these images do not belong to CAIS - Image:Khomeini 78.jpg. I don't think they could have obtained such a nice image of Khomeini. - Aksi_great (talk) 18:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
  • How do you know that they don't have the permission for its distribution, or they may have copied from a journal which has no copyright? Can you prove otherwise? Anyhow in your case is too late - wait for Wiki management to decide about your faith! ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 18:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Read my comment above, ParthianShot. If it is copied from a journal that has no copyright, it is up to you as the uploader to prove this fact. It is not up to Aski great to prove otherwise. Will (aka Wimt) 18:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Dear Will - I have and replied to your comment. However, CAIS has not proven to be in the breach of any copyvios, asnd as far as academia concerns it is a reputable and scholarly source of info about pre-Islamic Iran. However, it is Aksi who alleges that it is copyvio - so my question is where is the proof for his allegations?← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 18:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• Just a note that I have removed the images from the articles pending some more information from ParthianShot. But it looks like he isn't in any mood to add sources or address the real issue here about possible copyvios. I asked him to mention the source of some images uploaded by him and not attributed to the cais website. All those images also look like copyvios to me as they are strikingly similar to the cais images also uploaded by ParthianShot. But he won't give me a source till I show him the words in a policy that will compel him to give more information about the images. Can someone clarify our policy to him here. It may be too late for me now that he has complained to wiki management about me. :) - Aksi_great (talk) 18:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• • Aksi - you are not truthful again! I ahve left this message in your talkpage [110]: (Show me a Wikipedia policy that requires that the contributor of an image should come up with a ...short description of how and where you took the photographs.., and then I will provide you with. Don't make on your law! ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 17:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)) - so where is that Wikipedia policy? ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 18:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:HomaDarabi.jpg Example of hodood punishment in Islamic-Iran: This women was given 50 lashes for violating Islamic Sharia Law.

I think User:ParthianShot does upload images which are useless and frankly offensive to a large group of editors in wikipedia. One example is the folowing image. As you know there are thousands of propaganda unreliable websites around. This image is uploaded from one such unreliable propaganda website. The image can be very well a forgery. It claims the following story:"This picture was sent to Dr. Homa Darabi from a woman in Iran.This picture was taken 20 days after she was lashed fifty times for being present at a family gathering where men other than her father and brother were present. Her crime? She is a single woman. It is forbidden for women to be present under the same roof with men other than their close relatives (father, brother and son) without proper hijab."- This image is not useful in wikipedia as it comes from a non-reliable blog with certain motivations. Further, the copyright status of the image is not established."

Now, of course women do have problems in Iran(that's beyond dispute) but as someone who has lived in Iran, I can say safely that such a story feels completely unrealistic and ridiculous. First of all, Islamic Hudud prescribes punishment only for the five crimes of unlawful intercourse, false accusation of unlawful intercourse, drinking wine, theft, and highway robbery. It says nothing about "proper covering". The subtitle of the image: "Example of hodood punishment in Islamic-Iran" is written by somebody who doesn't know much about Islam hudud, but with a desire to spread false anti-Islam information. Secondly, this story is completely unrealistic: If somebody goes out with a very improper hijab in the public(right now the standards of proper hijab are very low as compared to the early years of revolution), then of course someone may arrest her. BUT here we have a woman who have been "present at a family gathering". This is something inside family and to have a family member lash her for 50 times is Sadism and lack of human dignity. This story is only proper for those propagandist websites. It is no "Example of hodood punishment in Islamic-Iran". Those users who upload these offensive pictures in wikipedia disrupt wikipedia. --Aminz 20:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Your point may be valid. Do note that the images license is under question. So I'm changing the display to a plain link. - Aksi_great (talk) 20:30, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Aksi personal attacks and abusing of his admin rights

I hereby wish to draw everyone's attention to Aksi's vandalism by removing all of my contributions [111] for no reason from Wikipedia pages! He has been in breach of his admin privileges in past, and he is continuing to do so as discussed above [112]. I already have submitted an official complain to Jimmy Wales and Wikipedia management for his act of vandalism and breach of his admin rights. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 17:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Umm... which admin rights would that be? For everyone else, please read this post above. It is clear to me that instead of adding sources to images uploaded to him, this user prefers to sidetrack the issue by throwing around accusations of bias. See his reply to Samir, me and Thatcher131 in the above post. - Aksi_great (talk) 17:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Please help Aksi clarify the copyright issues on these images as opposed to making unfounded allegations of vandalism based on his removal of spurious license tags -- Samir 17:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure Aksi needs all the help that he can get from his fellow Admins - but before doing so, ask yourselves is it right thing do? Are you willing to put a price on your conscious - by defending wrong? ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 17:59, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying it is immoral (or, as you put it, not the "right thing do") to follow image copyright laws? --Kralizec! (talk) 18:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Kralizec - I never said that! I said support Aksi, if he is right, and do not support him just because he is one of the Admins! ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 18:26, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

His morals look entirely in order to me. While I don't question the sincerity of yours, I do question the results. Images with inadequate source information, particularly that appear to be copyright violations, may be speedily deleted per WP:CSD - David Gerard 18:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear David - I do appreciate your comments, but the problem is not the images - it is the force behind Aksi's actions - Aksi is in direct contact outside Wikipedia with another contributor who is in dispute with me. Please read the above [113]. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 18:30, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• That gets an official "so what" from me, I'm afraid. Inadequate source info on images is an unambiguous speedy delete, we do it hundreds if nto thousands of times daily. Persistent offenders get the Wikitrout. This is perfectly normal, and a rational response to the fact that some people either don't understand or don't accept that copyright abuse can get us sued into oblivion. Guy (Help!) 18:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

(ec.) Hm, from what I've gathered so far I'm not sure what the problem about the alleged back-channel communication is supposed to be. Even if it were true - in the present case, I think that might actually be quite wise, as it avoids dragging around publicly the name of a real-world person, Sh. S.-P., in the context of rather embarrassing copyvio and plagiarism accusations. Isn't that in everybody's best interest? - By the way, ParthianShot, I do wonder now, instead of questioning other people's motives, why don't you just explain to us (1) why you had a sockpuppet under the name of Sh. S.-P., (2) why you uploaded images that you first said were your own and then said were by Sh. S.-P., and (3) why you now claim you are not Sh. S.-P.? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:52, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

FutPerf - Admins are part of Wikipedia system and therefore Wikipedia has legal obligations to observe legality here! Therefore, thank you for giving me the idea of informing CAIS about Wikipedia’s slanders and accusations of plagiarism and theft. Thanks again - your assistance is greatly appreciated! :) ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 05:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Note - ParthianShot has now been indef blocked by User:Alkivar for making legal threats against me. - Aksi_great (talk) 10:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

More evidence

• Hmm, I notice somebody has indef-blocked ParthianShot for making legal threats. Just for the record, here's a few more apparent copyright issues on CAIS that I found on a very casual browsing through the site:
  • CAIS: . Source: [114], ("All rights reserved")
  • CAIS: . Source: [115]. No assertion or evidence of permission.
  • CAIS: , creditecd to H. E. Wulff, Scientific American, April 1968, p.94 - 105. No assertion or evidence of permission.
  • CAIS: . Credited to: "FEZANA journal, Winter 1994". No assertion or evidence of permission.
  • CAIS: . No author or source attribution. From [116], a text credited to "Funk & Wagnalls® New Encyclopedia. © 2006 World Almanac Education Group. A WRC Media Company. All rights reserved. Except as otherwise permitted by written agreement, uses of the work inconsistent with U.S. and applicable foreign copyright and related laws are prohibited."
  • CAIS: . no credits to the translator of the ancient text. Same translation also in other places on the web, e.g. [117]. Source unknown.
  • CAIS: , from Wikipedia article Ancient_Azari_language (authored in this edit: [118]), no attribution.
  • CAIS: , from [119]. No assertion or evidence of permission. Used as source for Wikipedia article Bartangi_language by ParthianShot. Same source as the following:
  • CAIS: , from [120].
  • CAIS: , from [121].
  • CAIS: , from [122]
  • CAIS: . Same text as in [123] and elsewhere on the web. Ultimate source unknown.
  • CAIS: , apparently from [124], written by Karine Megerdoomian. Some parts have also been used in Wikipedia, e.g. paragraph on "word boundaries" in Persian_alphabet

Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The evidence is very strong. I have already deleted all images uploaded from the website. I think it is time to get the site blacklisted, or atleast not use it as a primary source anywhere. - Aksi_great (talk) 10:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, looks like it. Maybe somebody should notify editors who work in that domain, over at the Wikipedia:Iranian Wikipedians' notice board perhaps, so that everybody will know what's going on when all those links are going to begin to vanish. In many cases, content sourced to CAIS might be salvagable by finding the original sources and using those. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, somebody has been transferring a number of CAIS images to commons. ([125]) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I have already tagged those images and contacted a commons admin. There should not be any problem in the future as the site has been added to the meta blacklist. - Aksi_great (talk) 11:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Certified.Gangsta violating Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Certified.Gangsta-Ideogram

Resolved

User:Certified.Gangsta's Arbitration case has closed and the Certified.Gangsta (talk · contribs) is now placed on revert parole. Certified.Gangsta is now forbidden to revert-war by arbitration case. See Certified.Gangsta's contributions, Certified.Gangsta's contributions since his ArbCom case ended were mass reverts and and personal attacks. Certified.Gangsta has now blatantly violated the ArbCom's final decision on many articles which, according to his ArbCom case "shall be enforced by blocks". Certified.Gangsta has violated his ArbCom restriction on over four articles. See here, here, here, and here. His latest ArbCom violation here. An administrator should enforce this flagrant violation of the Arbitration Committee's Final decision. Thanks. LionheartX 09:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I see that you are baiting him by blindly reverting his edits.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not baiting him. He is forbidden to revert-war by ArbCom. See his latest ArbCom violation here where a different editor reverted him. Anyways, the evidence is in the ArbCom case. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Certified.Gangsta-Ideogram. Thanks, LionheartX 09:31, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you both deserve to be blocked, certified.gangsta for revert warring and you for revert warring, disrupting the Wiki by spamming this report on every talk page you can find, and flagrant wikilawyering. Arbcom sanctions do not justify your actions in the slightest, since EVERYONE is forbidden to edit war by default. --tjstrf talk 09:36, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not "baiting him", Certified.Gangsta reverted my edits before I reverted them back. This is a blatant violation of ArbCom decisions and sets a dangerous precedent if not enforced. The fact is this: Certified.Gangsta is forbidden to revert war per his Arbitration case. I am not spamming this report, I am trying to find out the procedure for reporting a violation of ArbCom decisions. This is a flagrant violation of ArbCom Final decisions and should be enforced. All of the evidence of Certified.Gangsta's behavior is here: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Certified.Gangsta-Ideogram. Please enforce this ArbCom violation. Thanks. LionheartX 09:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[[126]] YOu recruited him. Sumple is also a Ideogram fanclub-guy in my arbCom case. His opinion is hardly neutral.--Certified.Gangsta 09:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Certified.Gangsta, your opinion, like many of your other opinions, is offensive, obnoxious, completely baseless, and defamatory. --Sumple (Talk) 04:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Certified.Gangsta is clearly misrepresenting the facts. This user reverted Certified.Gangsta's edit before that post was even made. In fact, the evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Certified.Gangsta-Ideogram speaks for itself. This is a flagrant violation of ArbCom decision. LionheartX 09:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Link to the actual diffs not the history, in the future. Regardless of who is under arbitration restrictions or not, you should not be inducing edit warring or edit warring yourself. Just because Certified.Gangsta is restricted by that ArbCom case does not give you free reign in reverting him because you two are in a dispute. You should be lucky that you are actually unblocked, as you had proclaimed that you were a sockpuppet, as Certified.Gangsta points out below. Right now, I agree with tjstrf that you should both be blocked; Certified.Gangsta for violating his arbitration restrictions, and yourself, LionheartX for generally being a dick to him and trying your best to drive him off of Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

LionheartX blocked for 48 hours for reasons stated above.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

This is getting a bit ridiculous. LionheartX almost obsessive activity here has been, for months and under many usernames, to bait and edit war with Certified.Gangsta. He was previously blocked indefinitely by me after the umpteenth reincarnation, then allowed to use this account later after discussion on ANI (which I did not notice in time to comment). I would advise you to read this comment from the discussion [127] ("Any further disruptive behavior on his part (and massive spamming of admins' talk pages, which he did just now, is very close to being disruptive) will be the last straw."). His talk page discussion then, from [128] down, is also instructive. It's time to ban him for good. Dmcdevit·t 10:06, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Considering that the "last chance" message was from the one guy willing to let Lionheart back after his previous indef, and he's now engaged in the exact behaviour he was warned would lead to a re-ban, I would think that he's certainly hit the point of exhausting the community's patience. And his latest correspondence at User talk:LionheartX shows that he is either totally clueless as to why his behaviour is unacceptable (which I doubt is even humanly possible) or is simply refusing to acknowledge that he was wrong, hiding behind the wikilawyering "but arbcom!" diversionary tactic. So I agree with Dmcdevit that it's time we rectify the error of unbanning him. (In case anybody wishes to claim bias in this statement, I have no reason to support Certified.Gangsta whatsoever.) --tjstrf talk 10:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Provoking someone to violate ArbCom ruling, in order to get them blocked? That looks like plain disruption to me, and the fact that he doesn't eve know that what he's doing is wrong, just makes it worse. I'm leaning towards Dmcdevit's suggestion of a ban. --Kzrulzuall ^{Talk• Contribs} 10:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the ban. Full disclosure: I'm on friendly and somewhat mentoring terms with Certified.Gangsta, so I'm not entirely neutral here. On the other hand, I've had a good view of Lionheart's activities. I do think his last chances have all been spent. Bishonen | talk 11:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

Would you prescribe a similar ban for Certified? Because I can't work out which of them started it, and I've been more involved with both of them than most people. They've both been blocked for 48 hours. I suggest leaving it at that for now. If either of them repeats the behaviour, a 96 hour block will be applied and so on. It only takes a little longer than us "assuming" they won't learn and skipping straight to banning them, and it gives them the chance to learn. Regards, Ben Aveling 11:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be useful here to invoke the "Tu Quoque" principle of the recently closed arbitration:

Wikipedia editors are expected to adhere to policy regardless of the behavior of those they are in disputes with; inappropriate behavior by others does not legitimize one's own.

Passed 7 to 0, 20:38, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

This would tend to support the idea of an even-handed approach. --Tony Sidaway 11:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Ryulong blocked Certified.Gangsta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for 24 hours for violating his revert parole and LionheartX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for 48 hours for baiting Certified.Gangsta. Editors under ArbCom sanction are not caged animals you can poke sticks at. However. CG needs to bring his problems to dispute resolution first, rather than revert, if he is going to have any chance to reform himself. Thatcher131 16:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to propose banning LionheartX and Certified Gangsta (and all their alias') from the Culture of Taiwan page. They, and probably their socks, have been using the page as a location to spar, which is disruptive to my own work on the page and their participation on the page has resulted in little or no contribution to the quality of the material on the page. The only movement has been tit for tat reverts. I would really not like to get in the middle of this war for fear of becoming a target for their animosity. I would really like to be left working with good, NPOV contributors who are not pushing an agenda or looking for a fight. If you are working on a page where they are warring, they follow your edits and it spreads like a virus, making good people upset and interfereing in the community-wide goal of improving Wikipedia for the better.Maowang 13:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

User Wikipediatrix and user Tilman are conspiring and actively sabotaging by deleting links that are found on Scientology related pages

The pages that so far have been sabotaged: Golden Age of Tech, Patter drill, Scientology controversy, Rundown (Scientology), Fair Game (Scientology), Study Tech, Mary Sue Hubbard, Hubbard Association of Scientologists International, Altered texts in Scientology doctrine, Scientology: A History of Man, Xenu, Disconnection. The history pages of these will fold out that which is deleted and will also tell the reason they give for removing them. For the first 4 pages listed in the above the argument has been forwarded that these discuss New World Order theories, which is an erroneous and absurd claim when one consults these pages where these external links lead to. On his talkpage user Tilman writes: "I see the words "new world order" on the page, THAT is enough to put this in a fringe corner."

On user Tilman's talkpage one can read that both user Wikipediatrix and user Tilman are conspiring to remove a variety of external links and referencing from Scientology pages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Tilman#Reverting_valid_links A few quotations: "These Snoeck pages should be pulled from other articles' link sections as well. wikipediatrix 17:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)" & "I know there's a script for this somewhere. I want to run for the "Debernification Project Force" (getting rid of links to the anonymous "Bernie" page) --Tilman 18:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)" (please consult the supplied link for various data about their position on this)

Noted is that both these persons are antagonistic towards Scientology and intend and are removing links that directs to information that may oppose to their personal ideas and convictions, or sites that provide for objective studies. It can be clearly seen on various of these altered pages that socalled critical 'personal' sites are left intact. See for example page Fair Game (Scientology), section 'Critical sites' is left intact. Section 'Other studies' is however deleted. On page Altered texts in Scientology doctrine we see that user Wikipediatrix left various external links to personal sites intact, why were these not deleted together with the others? The same we can see on page Xenu that lists a long list to critical 'personal' sites that is left fully intact. In particular the links and the referencing that lead to Bernie's site, and Michael Snoeck's site have ALL been systematically removed from these pages. Both these sites represent independent studies attempting to be fair and objective about matters. These are about the only sites around that attempt to view matters from various angles and give an abundance of referencing. Neither of these sites make in particular a case in favour or against the Church of Scientology. They represent studies. The argumentation from user Wikipediatrix that they are blogs is erroneous as they are studies (see definition of Blog). Both these sites (esp. the Snoeck site) provide for unique material and research not found or available anywhere else. Is this a personal vendetta of Wikipediatrix against in particular these 2 sites? Wikipediatrix is highly invalidative in particular to the Snoeck site.

The Wiki rule for these is Wikipedia:External links: "When assessing external links you need to simply ask yourself the question: Why is the link not used as a source for the article? If the answer is "because it is not a reliable source," then don't link. If the answer is, "that link is a great resource that complies with the verifiability policy,", then you can link and hopefully someone else would add material from the source to the article."

Please can any administrator have a look into this rather serious matter! I also would propose an investigation into these 2 users as to their intent and approach, and to establish if these oppose the aims of Wikipedia. --Olberon 10:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

To make it easier for the administrators would you please post the external links in question here? Anynobody 11:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Both the Bernie's as well as the Snoeck's site are fairly large. The main index of these sites are respectively found here http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/sitemap.htm & http://www.algonet.se/~tourtel/INTRO.html#popup. From there you can find the various pages that have been linked to from the respective Wiki pages (all listed at top of report). --Olberon 11:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I can't speak for an administrator, but these look like personal opinion sites that don't cite sources for the most part (and when they do it's not a verifiable source because it's an argument between unknown users on an internet forum. Anynobody 10:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I am astonished by the utter ignorance of this evaluation. The Snoeck site provides for a tremendous amount of source materials and documentation. This is just absurd. Nothing happened because of my report and no one gives a damn anyway about this. I fear that Wiki most certainly has no future.

The rule seriously violated is:

"When assessing external links you need to simply ask yourself the question: Why is the link not used as a source for the article? If the answer is "because it is not a reliable source," then don't link. If the answer is, "that link is a great resource that complies with the verifiability policy,", then you can link and hopefully someone else would add material from the source to the article."

But who cares about that? No one as it appears! The serious people around have no interest to play these silly Wiki battles with illiterate individuals. No article is ever safe!! --Olberon 13:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• I know it can be frustrating at times, but personal sites such as the ones you've linked to aren't good sources for Wikipedia. Those links seem to fail most -- if not all -- of WP:RS. .V. _[Talk|Email] 15:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Olberon's edit history suggests something rather the opposite from his accusations: namely, Olberon is pushing links to these sites on the pages in question, and he does not like it when other Wikipedians remove those links for the reasons already stated. --Modemac 16:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Olberon you probably want to know why your link is not verifiable or reliable and something like Ron the "War Hero" is. The answer is in the link, it has lots of verifiable references. The site you mentioned makes assertions, which right or wrong, are not referenced. This means we as the reader have to either take the author's word for it that the site is factual, or assume they are his opinions. Neither option works with the mentioned policy and guideline. Anynobody 00:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Anynobody, the fact that that particular non-notable article has lots of references to make its POV case does not make the site a reliable intermediate source. Material may be hosted on intermediate sources and could be used for creating articles if (big IF) the intermediate is non-biased and has itself a reputation for fact-checking. So a University site may be alright but some wildly POV anti-Scientology attack site cannot be an intermediate source. We, as editors, can use that biased site to save us the trouble of locating material only to the extent that we then actually find and read the source and reference that. To do less is just lazy. --Justanother 11:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It is fully ignored here what user Tilman and Wikipediatrix have been doing, their claims, their arguments, their behaviour etc.. It is also fully ignored that in fact these Scientology articles REMAIN TO LINK TO A WHOLE VARIETY OF CRITICAL 'PERSONAL' SITES!!! Instead I am attacked by user Modemac whose own opinion and track of posting in regards to Scientology is documented on his contributions and talkpage. I for sure am amongst illiterates that run a propaganda of their personal likes and dislikes.--Olberon 11:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, Olberon just lost whatever credibility he had here -- and he did it all by himself. --Modemac 14:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Patsy Moore

Recently the article, Patsy Moore, suffered libel from two editors. Boofbaby (blocked indefinitely, account creation blocked). However, another contributor, 71.123.18.83, participated, also. The victim, Patsy Moore, has created an account at PatsyMoore, and has sent "cease and desist" messages to both parties. A request for oversight assistance has been sent, so the revisions may or may not currently appear to all users at the time. The reason why a report is being filed here is because 71.123.18.83 still hasn't been punished for libel. Boofbaby has, but 71.123.18.83 hasn't. This is more than just simple vandalism, this is libel, in which we were lucky that Patsy Moore's friend caught it and told her, or this could have ended less quieter. For some reason, 71.123.18.83 hasn't been blocked. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 11:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• Libel #1
• Libel #2
• Libel #3

Other users and I have taken action because PatsyMoore got involved in the incident. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 11:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The anon's only contribution seems to be describing Patsy Moore's company Patchouli Grove Publishers as "self-pay for publishing book releases", which I take to mean that they are being described as vanity press. You've labeled that as libel 2. A quick google search doesn't seem to turn up anything they've done, other than her book(s). Am I correct on all those points? Are you saying that they aren't a vanity press, or something else? Regards, Ben Aveling 12:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, she seemed upset with that user too, so I'd try to get a hold of User:PatsyMoore. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 13:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, how do you know PatsyMoore (talk · contribs) is actually Patsy Moore?--VectorPotential^Talk 14:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I was the user who caught and reverted the libel, and requested semi-protection. I don't think blocking that IP will do much good--it's a DSL IP from Verizon. There's too much risk of collateral damage, I think. I have, however, emailed Verizon to let them know what happened--their AUP forbids damaging the reputation of third parties, so I don't think it'll be too much trouble to nuke the responsible party.Blueboy96 14:23, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Well that seems extremely inappropriate, their actions aren't even blockable, let alone enough for their ISP to terminate service--VectorPotential^Talk 14:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I think it's enough for Verizon to nuke the person who was using that IP at the time. Verizon's AUP forbids using its service for any action that "might be legally actionable for any reason" or, more importantly, would "damage the name or reputation of Verizon, its parent, affiliates and subsidiaries, or any third parties." I've already sent an email to Verizon's abuse department--if this isn't a nukable offense, what is?Blueboy96 14:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The changes marked Libel #1, 2 and 3 appear to be silly vandalism, of the kind that we try to quickly revert all the time. This is the kind of thing that gets sent to WP:AIV, though because of the apparent defamation, it might seem to justify an indefinite block of User:Boofbaby, that would remain in place until some appropriate explanation or apology is received. Since the statements inserted by Boofbaby don't look very credible on their face, and are unlikely to seem plausible to Wikipedia readers, I don't see the need to start major countermeasures in motion. EdJohnston 17:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good--should someone tell Boofbaby? Like I mentioned below, I think we ought to make this a community ban until and if he publicly apologizes to Ms. Moore.Blueboy96 17:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Community ban proposal on User:Boofbaby

Whether User:PatsyMoore is really Patsy Moore or not is irrelevant. The fact is, some pretty egregious libel took place. This sort of behavior can't be tolerated on Wikipedia, even from a newbie. I therefore propose a community ban on Boofbaby (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), at least until and if he publicly apologizes to Ms. Moore for his behavior. If you guys feel he should be banned even after that, I won't mind.Blueboy96 14:26, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems that User:Steel359 indefinitely blocked User:Boofbaby on 5 May as a vandal-only account. He also semi-protected the Patsy Moore article. Since this admin seems to have the situation well in hand, I see no need for a community ban proposal. You should keep the article watch-listed to be alert for any new vandalism, which you could report to Steel359. EdJohnston 17:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, makes sense--someone should tell him that he'll stay blocked until he apologizes to Ms. Moore. I'd do it myself, but not sure if I have that authority.Blueboy96 18:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't be necessary. Boofbaby was a run-of-the-mill vandal account and it's been two weeks. – Steel 21:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

He's blocked indefinitely and his account creation is blocked. Since he's a vandal-only account, and he's blocked indefinitely, we can't really bribe him with a block-lift, although an apology would be nice. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 22:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Using anonymity to evade the consequences of breaches of wp:civ?

On May 4th and May 5th I got two notices from User talk:72.75.73.158, that they had placed speedy delete tags on two articles I had recently started. [129], [130].

I left them a note, on their talk page today. In my note I urged them to start using a wiki-id. I didn't notice that they had already offered a couple of explanations for why they chose not to use a wiki-id. I think a fair paraphrase of thei explanation would be:

"I don't use a wiki-id because I am unwilling or unable to comply with the wikipedia's policy on civility.

I took a look at User:72.75.73.158's User page. I find their note disturbing. They seem to think they can absolve themselves of responsibility for the tagging of articles for speedy deletion. In their opinion the responsibility for the deletion lay with the administrator whom completed the speedy deletion process.

Surely the person who placed the tag should feel responsible for {{db}} tags they place?

User:72.75.73.158 acknowledges making dozens of speedy deletion nominations, per day, and obfuscating their responsibility behind using an anonymous IP.

Unlike other wikis the wikipedia allows contrbutions from anonymous IP addresses. I thought it was so posible contributors could contribute, even if they lived in a totalitarian country — not so they could evade the consequences of an unwillingness or inability to comply with the wikipedia's policies.

Cheers! Geo Swan 17:23, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Blocked for a week - David Gerard 18:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Avoiding block? --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

No ... just housekeeping. :-) —68.239.79.82 (talk · contribs) 20:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The obvious answer to the "avoiding block?" question is yes, however it appears that an admin "supporter" arranged for an un-block [131]. --Kralizec! (talk) 03:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You say that as if it were a Bad Thing. (Isn't blocking an IP kind of like herding cats? :-) —68.239.79.82 08:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

When I see an unnecessary block on Wikipedia, I will naturally object to it. That's what I did in this situation. Nishkid64 (talk) 13:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

SummerThunder going apeshit (be on the lookout)

SummerThunder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (see Wikipedia:Long term abuse/SummerThunder), the venerable sock puppet edit warrior, has been stepping up his blitzkrieg-like rampages. In the last few days, he has attacked his favorite pages and favorite editors with the following known sock puppets:

• Worthaddlction (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Surenuts (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Crowdalert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Plainnuts (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Lawsnun (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Crazyruns (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

If any user is seen matching his MO, they should be reported to AIV at once or simply indef-blocked as quickly as possible without a further word. If you are watching AIV, please be alert for reports of SummerThunder socks. The puppetmaster tries to do as much damage in as short a time as possible, so time is of the essence whenever he deigns to shower his blessings upon Wikipedia. --Dynaflow 19:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I should add, though, that SummerThunder also has a habit of reporting his "enemies" to AIV as sock puppets of either each other or of himself, and has shown himself willing to "alter" the AIV reports of others. Block quickly, but not blindly. --Dynaflow 19:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

This guy has an easy-to-identify modus operandi, shouldn't be too hard. I find this edit not to be ironic at all. Grandmasterka 01:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Built0CD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)} The latest, active as of now. AIV hasn't yet banned. --Dynaflow 01:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
• Issue0CD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) And another. Could someone take it upon him- or herself to checkuser all of these and see if they can figure out who/where this guy is and contact his ISP? This is just nuts. --Dynaflow 02:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

SpyMagician

SpyMagician has harassed me for months, and now that he smells blood, he has continues again, unabated. I would appreciate other editors' taking a look at SpyMagician's edits and examining whether the way he is handling my situation is appropriate. It may be, for all I know, but, well, I'm a little too close to the situation to make judgment calls. SpyMagician's other edits might need to be looked at as well, particularly his restoration of unreferenced POV and OR to articles, including his restoration of his mainly unreferenced biography. He has tried to bully me on Wikipedia and off for a while now, and I would prefer not to see others to have to deal with the same from him. It is because of users like this that I created an alternate account, and while I have admitted my ethical wrongdoing and accepted my punishment, this editor is not satisfied and wants to make me suffer more. Currently, I simply would like to be irrelevant to discussion on Wikipedia so I won't feel like I should be available to discussion on the subject and can just go away for a while. I may just have to regardless, but I would prefer some sense of closure before I leave. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 19:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I would personally support a block for haressment, even it's just for the past few days editing, just look at his contribs. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I would also endorse a block. SpyMagician's conduct is extremely inappropriate (see Special:Contributions/SpyMagician). Sean William 19:59, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I've just noted in a thread higher on the page a comment from this user that I found to be objectionable. Frankly, I would very much prefer that we not have to block, because the block would be misportrayed as "administrators banding together to shield one of their former colleagues from criticism." I would much prefer to see SpyMagician take a deep breath, accept that he's made his point, and continue editing in accordance with our standards. Here's hoping that can happen. Newyorkbrad 20:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

He said earlier on today, on ChrisO's talk page, that he'd give it a rest, but less than an hour ago he was still at it. He may need some help to give it a rest. By the way, what on earth is wrong with administrators banding together and protecting one of their former colleages from this kind of personal attack? --Tony Sidaway 20:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tony here, everyone disapointed by what Chris Griswold did, but he's received his punishment for it, the only person not willing to forget this is SpyMagician, he's been warned on his talk page, yet he continues the harassment, a block would hopefully put an end to this. Ryan Postlethwaite 20:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I was trying to AGF to the maximum benefit of the doubt, given the discussion on my talk, but having seen that SpyMagician has brought this issue to yet another page (the talkpage of the checkuser case), I am running a little lower on patience. Newyorkbrad 20:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Reading this comment on Bishonen's talk page and this comment elsewhere, I'm finding it hard to believe that this isn't just trolling. It certainly looks like that to me. -- ChrisO 20:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I've just blocked for 48 hours, hopefully this will stop the trolling. Ryan Postlethwaite 20:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

User has posted a request for an unblock review. My comments are above and on his talk. Newyorkbrad 20:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Right, I've unblocked per concerns that my block may have been punitive, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but spy's behaviour should stop immediately. Ryan Postlethwaite 20:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it was punitive, maybe a little premature, but as I said above hopefully the bad behavior will stop, and that's what we need. Regards, Newyorkbrad 21:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I hope SpyWizard's behavior does stop immediately, but experience suggests to me that this will probably not end soon. --Tony Sidaway 21:15, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Schadenfraude isn't ever sexy. I've had problems with ChrisG for a long time, but I think that kicking him while down is definitely incivil and childish, and given the extent of his commentary, and his persistence, Should Spymagician be blocked for inciv violations? ThuranX 21:28, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I could swear that of the little interaction we've had over the past few months or so, it's been cordial, and I vaguely rememebr supporting you in something. I'd like to discuss this with you because any criticism I had before with the way you carried yourself here faded away as your edits, as well as your understanding and maintenance of Wikipedia, improved greatly long ago. Any disagreements I was involved in prior to that were mainly due to my work in maintaining the Comics WikiProject, and as such I was usually drawn to such conflicts after they had started by the comics notice board. Anyway, I will be e-mailing you if you have that feature activated; if not, please do e-mail me so that we can put all that behind us and work together as we have more recently. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 22:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for a block, having had to bear the brunt of Spy's trolling further up the page (the comment NYB quoted was directed at me and Thebainer, I believe). Daniel Bryant 01:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I want to thank the admins for unblocking me. That said, if what I did was considered trolling, my apologies. I feel I would deserve a block or even a banning. But was not even given a notice in any way and only found out about this ANI after the ban was in place. I'm not too sure how I feel about this, but in the efforts of moving forward I accept responsibility for whatever ills I might have caused in the methods I used, and I apologize. But I would like to say one thing in my defense regarding the initial post of this ANI. He has tried to bully me on Wikipedia and off for a while now, and I would prefer not to see others to have to deal with the same from him. The claim that I have bullied him off if Wikipedia is a bold-faced lie. I will say that today I did contact him via MySpace once prior to the ANI, and then once after the ANI. But that is it. The image he portrays of me stalking him in the real world for months on end is simply false. It is because of users like this that I created an alternate account I don't know what to say about this, but somehow Wikipedia—and even this specific discussion—is filled with editors who do not choose to create shadow accounts to deal with others. To blame me—or anyone—for individual behavior is really sad. And that's all I will say about this. And as this ANI discussion as my witness, let this be the last thing I ever have to say about this matter. Unless the ex-admin in question does something heinously egregious, I will not comment on day-to-day transactions with regard to this user. And if we do cross paths, I will stick to the topic at hand and not expand beyond that. 'Nuff said, Excelsior! —SpyMagician 02:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I turned message notification off on Myspace, so I wasn't aware of these messages until reading this. If anyone is interested in seeing the type of messages I get from this editor off-Wikipedia, contact me and I will send you the text. I'd like to think otherwise, but I'm pretty certain this will continue. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 04:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Chris, at first you said He has tried to bully me on Wikipedia and off for a while now, and I would prefer not to see others to have to deal with the same from him. which is an outright lie. You know very well I never contacted you off of Wikipedia before today. Now you say I turned message notification off on Myspace, so I wasn't aware of these messages until reading this. So that really seals the deal. Please do me a favor and realize that I welcome you to share these messages with anyone you see fit. But please do not use these messages as evidence of me stalking you for months. You know that's a lie and exaggeration yet you stand by it despite your own words contradicting yourself. This issue will end when you too Chris end it. And at least I have been honest about my communicatons; so much so you have chosen to use my words against you. Your facts speak otherwise. Is there a way this ANI can be locked so the issue can truly be put to rest? —SpyMagician 07:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Lilkunta, block request

Lilkunta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I'm requesting that an admin indefinitely block this user for repeated WP:CIVIL, WP:SOAP, WP:USER violations, as well as failure to discontinuing to use HTML mark up on talk pages (and even a request to discontinue it as well. This user's idea of dealing with such warnings is to claim that the user is vandalizing their page, stalking her, and the blanking the warnings. She has been blocked twice now for such actions, and has continued her incivility and has refused to remove her comment about the Virginia Tech massacre, and continues to use inappropriate HTML font tags. Here are some examples of warnings that she has received:

• [132]
• [133]
• [134]
• [135]
• [136]
• [137]
• [138]
• [139]
• [140]
• [141]
• [142]

She has proven that she will not follow policies, and when warned, she becomes incivil and makes wild accusations. Please consider either an indefinite or a long term block for the repeated violations. Thank you. CASCADIA^Howl/_Trail 20:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree. There are some trouble users that nothing short of indeffing will cure. Any good contribs Lilkunta makes are overshadowed by their inability to discuss. ~Crazytales 21:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I changed the section title to be shorter. Still awaiting input from an admin. ^ReviewCASCADIA^Howl/_Trail 00:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The article HD DVD Code

Resolved

I believe that this is illegal material and should get deleted immediately. Darkspots 23:23, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

No. See the massive amount of discussion at WP:AN and elsewhere. Grandmasterka 23:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

He wasn't talking about deleting the article AACS encryption key controversy ; he was talking about the redirect itself, HD DVD Code, which I deleted and Asterion recreated as such. See the deleted history. Picaroon (Talk) 23:52, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Gotcha. In any case, it seems to have been resolved. Grandmasterka 23:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to make it clear that Picaroon is correct and that I wanted the short, new article that's now a redirect to have the illegal content deleted out of its history, which he and Asterion have taken care of. I think that AACS encryption key controversy is a fine article, and I relied on its statement that the number was "illegal" in making this request. Thanks. Darkspots 17:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

AndyZ gone rogue

Admin AndyZ (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) just went rouge, blocking Ryulong and deleting the main page. A couple people and I are in the stewards channel working to get him desysopped. Sean William 01:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

For the record, Eagle 101's deletion of the main page was an accident and in good faith. Sean William 01:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sean, that's rogue not rouge. There's nothing wrong with Rouge admins. Rogue admins on the other hand... WjBscribe 02:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

He's already been desysopped I think. I do believe I saw User:Drini over at meta change group membership for User:AndyZ from sysop to (none). --24.44.158.33 01:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Correction, to be precise he was desysopped at 1:37 UTC. That's about 10 minutes ago and three minutes before you posted here. --24.44.158.33 01:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

For explanation, his first edit summary was, "My password is password!". Tell me it's not true.. -- zzuuzz^(talk) 01:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it was. It seems the account was compromised. Sean William 01:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That's odd, I thought that the devs indefinitely blocked every user account with weak passwords. (Or maybe that was just where the password=username.) --Iamunknown 02:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Since another admin logged in, changed the password and unregistered the mail address, I am guessing it was true. Now I wonder how long it took this vandal to guess the password. A dictionary attack maybe, although MediaWiki should have a protection against such attempts. -- ReyBrujo 01:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, "fortunately" he blocked an admin and deleted the home page, things could have been much, much worse. -- ReyBrujo 01:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Or maybe it's Robdurbar (talk · contribs), who happened to go on a wikibreak at the same time as Andy, and went on a similar rampage last month. -- tariqabjotu 02:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed from Wikipedia:List of administrators, added to Wikipedia:Former administrators. Picaroon (Talk) 01:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

sigh - Sorry about the confusion, I intended to delete and restore the page back to the original state, problem is my broswer froze. I did the action in thinking that there was edit history missing, and that needed to be restored, frankly it went so fast that I did not think that a simple "go to history, restore revisions" would work. Again sorry for the mistake on my part. My account is not comprimsed. —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 01:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. Full credit for keeping a look out and doing your best to act in our interests. Mistakes are easily made. The important thing is that (again) the damage from a sysop account used to attack the Wiki was minimal. WjBscribe 02:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

2 questions, is a checkuser in order to check if the account was compromised, secondally, is anyone in contact with AndyZ to see what happened? Ryan Postlethwaite 02:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Mark Ryan has already e-mailed Andy and that Dmcdevit is currently working on the CU. Cbrown1023 talk 02:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Cheers for the clarification. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(ec)Yes, that is correct. Things are moving a mile a minute at #wikipedia-en-admins. Sean William 02:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Still have no idea how I'd go about getting access to that channel - I'm pretty much a luddite as far as IRC is concerned :-). WjBscribe 02:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This is what I can determine from the CheckUser evidence. AndyZ (talk · contribs) had two logged actions, one on each of two IPs. The first, deletion of the main page at 01:32, May 7, 2007, was using the Tor proxy 88.198.175.78. At 01:33, BuickCenturyDriver (talk · contribs), on IP 24.185.34.152 (which appears not to be an open proxy; it's the only IP he has used for hundreds of edits over the last month) makes an edit creating the main page [143] (the diff is misleading, since the history was restored after it). One minute later, 01:34, AndyZ's second action, the block of Ryulong, was also on the same IP as BuickCenturyDriver: 24.185.34.152. The conclusion is that AndyZ's two admin actions were done by the same person as BuickCenturyDriver. What I can't determine is whether BuickCenturyDriver hijacked the AndyZ account, or whether both are AndyZ, since all of AndyZ's older accounts are too old. We should compare their editing and see if there are any clues as to whether they are the same or different. There does not seem to be any connection to Wonderfool/Robdurbar here. Dmcdevit·t 02:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disbelieve that BuickCenturyDriver is behind this. He is a very good editor in standing, who would probably be the last person on my mind to delete the main page and block an admin. bibliomaniac15 02:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it is unexpected. Then again, who would have thought that Robdurbar (talk · contribs) would have done those things... WjBscribe 02:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess the only thing we can look for is any behavior simularities. —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 02:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, maybe his account was comprimised? Is thereany way of working this out from checkuser? Was it his usual IP? Ryan Postlethwaite 02:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

BuickCenturyDriver's IP is not compromised. It is the only IP he has been on for months. Someone needs to look at the two accounts. Do they have similar edit histories and interests? Similar quirks? And importantly, has AndyZ ever revealed where he lives before, because we don't have any of the IP evidence from before his wikibreak, so I can't tell if his account was compromised, or if he is BuickCenturyDriver. Dmcdevit·t 02:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Similar behavior? How about the fact that Buick just happened to be the first person to put something on the Main Page after Andy deleted it. On the other hand, I'm not sure why Andy would not have just created the page on his own account. -- tariqabjotu 02:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

No, either Buick's account was compromised, or it was him all along, Andy and Buick on the same IP, sorry, but that too much of a coincidence. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If Buick was using that same IP for months, then yeah, that's hard to refute. My question is, what IPs was AndyZ editing from previously? If we could find those, maybe we could figure out if the account was compromised or not. Either way though, Buick is looking pretty guilty. Grandmasterka 02:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If it was just the main page, I could AGF. But not with the other things that have happened. Regards, Ben Aveling 02:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC) and I changed the heading

Buick appears to be currently in charge of his account (per his unblock request), and checkuser says he is editing from his usual IP, which appears to have been static for months. The only credible explanations are either Buick hijacked AndyZ's account, or is AndyZ. -- zzuuzz^(talk) 02:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

FYI, I just declined an unblock on User talk:24.185.34.152 until this is all sorted out... — Scientizzle 19:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It may have simply been a mistake. People screw up, using open proxies but then connecting sock accounts by accidentally editing with the same proxy for multiple accounts, all the time. Dmcdevit·t 02:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

What we need is, buick and andys normal IP whois reports - then it might be obvious. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If it helps, Andy's from New Jersey. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Buicks from New york, are they near each other?? Ryan Postlethwaite 03:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Optimum Online (which is what the IPs are from) is a large north-eastern ISP with a large range of dynamic IPs. The IPs will probably geolocate to random locations, anyway. Sean William 03:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

But Buicks appeared static didn't it? Ryan Postlethwaite 03:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Simple contrib checking on the IP shows that Buick was the only one to have any noticable edits from that IP.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 03:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Since when do we publish CheckUser evidence?? RxS 03:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It's frequently necessary for investigations and blocking IPs. All IPs are logged and usually out the IPs of the intended vandal. The privacy policy is not a suicide pact when the safety of the project is at risk. Dmcdevit·t 03:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Frequently, when's the last time Checkuser evidence was made public?? Investigations within checkusers certainly, but at ANI? And wasn't the incident over when the info was added here, how is that a suicide pact? RxS 03:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree here with RxS. There was no need to publish the static ip. However, everyone makes mistakes. -- ReyBrujo 03:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm serious. All IP blocks are logged publicly, and that is unavoidable. The information is important for the investigation. Think of most banned users who have used sockpuppets: their IPs are outed, and rightly so, because this is the only way admins can deal with them. Dmcdevit·t 03:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

God how I hate the drama that comes with any use of Checkuser on any established contributor. -Amarkov moo! 03:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

No, that's just the drama of John254. —Centrx→talk • 03:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

He tipped his own IP address right here so what is the problem? IrishGuy ^talk 09:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

if it makes anyone feel better, it seems to be a dynamic IP, as the user came on IRC with a different IP address. hombre de haha 09:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The privacy policy is not a suicide pact when the safety of the project is at risk. Interesting. -- tariqabjotu 04:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, the privacy policy does explicitly say that the information may be released "Where the user has been vandalising articles or persistently behaving in a disruptive way, data may be released to assist in the targeting of IP blocks, or to assist in the formulation of a complaint to relevant Internet Service Providers". In addition, the IP is clearly that of a large ISP and is not personally identifiable "where they're one of millions of users" and is "unlikely to be personally identifiable". —Centrx→talk • 04:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I have done a separate CheckUser which confirms, without any reasonable doubt, that BuickCenturyDriver edited using AndyZ's account. I don't know if they have always been the same editor, but they certainly are now. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Rather belated and unnecessary, but editing times indicate that sockpuppetry was possible. -Amarkov moo! 04:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. I was asked to do a second CheckUser, and I did so. What do you mean by "sockpuppetry was possible"? Jayjg ^(talk) 04:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I mean I'm inherently distrustful of anything that I can't see the raw evidence for, so I make sure that the results of the Checkuser were possible. The checkuser still definitely confirms it. -Amarkov moo! 04:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I just found out what happened, and I'm terribly sorry (definitely learned something). Normally my passwords aren't this stupid, but keeping track of various passwords does get quite annoying, and having my WP account hacked was one of the hacks I was least expectant of. Also funny, my IP address has always been 71.something; it never was 24.anything. By the way, I have never interacted with User:BuickCenturyDriver before. 71.125.65.64 (User:AndyZ) 22:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

As a follow-up (after going through pages of discussion on this), I also strongly disbelieve that User:BuickCenturyDriver was involved (with all evidence being coincidences); and that my account was hacked by somebody taking advantage of my terribly weak password (same for the other ~3 hacked admin accounts). Definitely not a sock/meat/etc.puppet with BCD, as Ryan noted above I'm from NJ (see WP:NJ). I concur with most of the discussion around here, esp. those regarding weak passwords. Sorry for having caused [even if indirectly] this mess. After I get a complete hold upon this situation, I'll apply (can't think of better terminology?) for an unblock, and I'll leave my adminship position up to the decision of the community. 71.125.65.64 (User:AndyZ) 23:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hold on

Wait a second... I got blocked?—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 02:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Feel honoured. He chose you above all others... :-). WjBscribe 03:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yep. Right after the main page was deleted. Sean William 03:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Something to consider

Right, I've just looked at Buicks contrib list -[144], he makes an edit after nearly a day off, 20 minutes before andy deleted the main page [145], 1 minute after the main page was deleted (and after a 20 minutre break), buick creates the main page stating where is the main page, another minute ater, Ryulong is blocked under AndyZ's name but on Buicks IP. Buick has also stated on his talk [146] that he doesn't have a weak password. I'm struggling to assume good faith. Ryan Postlethwaite 03:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I would love to assume good faith too, but unless there is a bug in the log system, or he is sharing the ip with someone else, recreating the page and blocking with the same IP passes the duck test. -- ReyBrujo 03:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Right Reybrujo, the fact that he made the first edit after it was deleted is just something else to consider, the fact that the block occurred with his IP address is the hard evidence. I am thinking that is difficult to occur, unless there is a known glitch that causes some kind of false logging of actions and associated IP addresses. hombre de haha 03:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm…—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 03:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

IIRC, maybe a year or so ago, there was a weird quirk with Wikipedia's proxy network that allowed spoofed addresses to appear in the logs, but the real address was still available in the proxy logs. And, IIRC, the devs plugged the hole back then. It might be a good idea to ask them to check for a regression, just to rule out the possibility that Buick's Pc wasn't actually involved. --71.162.93.43 03:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

MARMOT got banned for spoofing addresses to impersonate other editors. I'm sure it's been fixed since then. — MichaelLinnear 04:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Even if he didn't delete the main page with it, it seems possible that Buick saw the deletion summary ("my password is password"), and took advantage of it. Seems crazy unlikely that he didn't do the block, unless there's some technical glitch. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 04:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That seems unlikely; we'd have two rogue editors, one coming back only to delete the main page, and the other only to block. The evidence is overwhelming, but I'm just curious: Did Buick ever have any disputes with Ryulong? Grandmasterka 04:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I remember hte time when an admin accidentally deleted the Main Page. It was restored, but without protection, and an anonymous user managed to hit twice before protection was reinstated. It isn't unheard of, though CU evidence > likely coincidence. hbdragon88 07:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"I'm struggling to assume good faith. " Me too. Well, user got into irc a couple of minutes after the incident, playing the "I'm not technically savvy, I onlyu know how to use a browser" attitude... and eventually he ended up assuring us he had just switched IPs using the ipconfig DOS command (I wonder how much people know it exists let alone use it properly) to get out of the "bad IP". -- drini ^[meta:] _[commons:] 04:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You can switch IPs? Viridae^Talk 04:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

DHCP Release, then Renew. That is, drop the DHCP lease, and then ask the ISP for a new one. With most ISPs, excluding the few with static IPs, this will do it. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 04:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Woudln't "ipconfig /renew" be?. Ues Crustacean, but he specifically said he used ipconfig. Moreover, when someone suggested the possibility of his computer being rooted, the technically unsavvy user said

<BuickCenturyDriv>	It's not rootes
Used a proxy-checker I have no malware Please, I promise no bad will come from me

So... talking about ipconfig, proxies, etc, doesn't really makes me think of an unsavvy user, rather a cracker wannabe playing the dumb card. By the way, did we mention that he knows how to use TOR? -- drini ^[meta:] _[commons:] 04:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Drini summarizes it very well. A pity we lose an apparent good contributor, though, for a one-time mistake (I will assume good faith and think some cracker through TOR breaks into AndyZ's account and deletes the main page (32'), BCD discovers the fact and creates a temporary main page (33'), reads the edit summary and notices the password of AndyZ account, logs into it and blocks Ryulong (34')). -- ReyBrujo 05:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem, as far as I'm aware, is that the two users were sharing an IP address at the time. Both pieces of evidence are circumstantial on their own, but when put together... --Deskana (AFK 47) 11:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Now that AndyZ no longer has admin powers, isn't an indefblock a bit harsh? hbdragon88 07:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Accounts that have been compromised are always indefinitely blocked.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Main Page protection once deleted

When the Main Page was deleted today it was recreated and edited by 7 IPs and 3 registered users in the two minutes before it was protected. Am I correct in assuming that adding the Main Page to the protected titles list may prevent this from happening the next time the page gets deleted? If so, are there other pages we want to protect from recreation by non-admins should they get deleted? NoSeptember 08:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That could work, but you'd need to get rid of the big "DELETE" button.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that WP:PT can only protect non-existent pages. If the page exists, it'll be equivalant to full-protect, which doesn't work if the page is deleted via "the big red shiny button", as Ryulong stated. --Kzrulzuall ^{Talk• Contribs} 08:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It was tried by several admins after the last 'problem' and the main page can't be protected with cascading protection from WP:PT. -- Nick ^t 08:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you can still transclude the page and protect it, which is how I believe the protected titles pages works. I'll play around with the template.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Transcluding protection? Ryulong... If that works, then anyone can salt articles... --Kzrulzuall ^{Talk• Contribs} 08:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a "bug" that came about with cascading protection. If you transclude a non-existant title onto a page that has cascading protection, that page is protected from creation. That is how the protected titles pages work, however one needs to actualy edit a page that has had cascading protection.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(ec) I see how it works now... So every page that is linked to a cascading-protected enabled page has full protection? --Kzrulzuall ^{Talk• Contribs} 09:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

No. Only pages that are transcluded like templates. If {{cookie}} was on the page, Template:Cookie would be protected from creation.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I deliberately designed the {{protected title}} template to only protect nonexistent pages, but this is an artificial limitation. To protect the main page against re-creation/editing by a non-sysop, we need only transclude it by placing the code {{:Main Page}} on a page with cascading protection enabled. Note, however, that anyone with malicious intent and access to a sysop account could simply remove the transclusion or delete that page when deleting the main page itself. And of course, such an individual could just as easily...well, I'll refrain from finishing that sentence (for fear of invoking WP:BEANS), but let's just say that there are worse things that this would do nothing to prevent. —David Levy 12:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That is interesting. A rogue admin is likely going for the bang per buck in rogue actions given their limited time to act. I doubt finessing an extra minute of unprotection of the Main Page has sufficient "bang" value to make that extra step worthwhile to them. So this little extra protection may just be worth doing. NoSeptember 13:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Especially if it's transcluded on, say, five or ten cascading-protected pages instead of just one. —Cryptic 13:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Without getting into specifics, my concern is that this would encourage a rogue admin (or a hijacker of an admin's account) to do something worse than simply deleting the main page. If this were to occur, the cascading protection might actually work against us. —David Levy 13:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I think I know what you're thinking, and I agree. Cascading protecting the main page wouldn't accomplish enough to remove the risk. --Deskana (AFK 47) 14:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Admins with obvious passwords

If there are any remaining admins stupid enough to have obvious passwords, perhaps we should write a script to locate them and send a list to meta for them to be summarily desysopped on security grounds. This isn't funny. --Tony Sidaway 11:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

An appropriate precaution, perhaps, but I'm not sure how much it'd accomplish. I'm not convinced these accounts sit around for ages with obvious passwords and then do stupid things. I think it's likely that the passwords are being changed shortly before the rogue activities. --Deskana (AFK 47) 11:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how your suggestion could be done, Tony. If we can program a script to find obvious passwords, a hacker would have done it before us and compromised the security already.... If we could do it, so can they. Unless, we actually base the script in Mediawiki software, which could be potentially hazardous if something goes wrong... --Kzrulzuall 11:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It is precisely because we know that this can be done that we should ensure that we do it first. The Mediawiki software should stop people using stupid password, that goes without saying. --Tony Sidaway 11:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If I remember correctly a past review did reveal several admin account with blank passwords whilst they were still allowed. --pgk 12:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, see the Wikipedia Signpost story on disabling of blank passwords. Graham87 12:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Obvious or not, all passwords are still vunerable to (censored by the Cabal) attacks. AmiDaniel suggested something similar to a captcha on bugzilla (here) to prevent attacks like that. Sean William 13:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Uh... did we just get another one? – Riana_ऋ 13:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

What the hell just happened to Jiang? He's been blocked indefinitely now for deleting the Main Page and blocking Jimbo. Nishkid64 (talk) 14:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep, another one went batshit insane. Desysopped in 4 minutes thanks to Cyde and a steward. Sean William 14:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that there's some Star Trekesque Admin psychosis going on. Aside from the obvious guess that it's a concerted effort to compromise admin accounts, is it possible that these are all sleepers? A concerted effort to infiltrate through socked RFAs? Anchoress 14:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

pretty doubtful - Jiang had an 5 year old account and had over 32,000 edits (placing him 62 on the list of contributors) - straight forward account hacking I think. --Fredrick day 14:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Jiang reports that his hacked password was "fuckyou". NoSeptember 15:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd love to see something simple like a how-to on how to make a good password when users first start an account. I don't think we have it. And I'd suggest that all admins change their password immediately. Letters AND numbers if possible. And longer the better. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 20:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed security policy

See Wikipedia:Security.

Please edit and discuss. --Tony Sidaway 15:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Provide [some] protection to Main Page

While I'm not too familiar with CSS and all that, would it be possible to hide the "Delete" link from admins on the Main page using CSS (like we hide the Main Page heading)? While this wouldn't prevent deletion of the main page, it would at least take longer to do so and may deter those unfamilar with MediaWiki. Unless we want the Main Page to be the obvious target as its easier to notice if its gone. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 20:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Seem like all you'd have to do is enable "edit on double-click" and get to the edit page where the "delete" tab would be visible again. John Reaves (talk) 22:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

On Robdurbar

Has the checkuserable info for Robdurbar (talk · contribs)'s last edits gone stale? Is it possible to assess whether that vandalism spree was a test run for the current rampage? Aecis^Brievenbus 00:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I just want to note that it would seem unlikely, since User:Robdurbar's vandalism was a lot more damaging that that of my hacked account. If we were both hacked (assuming that Robdurbar's account was also hacked), then since mine was hacked second it would make sense that the vandalism would surpass one block and one deletion of the Main Page. Of course, I'm just starting to piece together what's happening, so don't take my word for it. APR _t (User:AndyZ's semi-bot account) 00:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting Checkuser on Robdurbar, by the way. If there is a link between the hijacking of Robdurbar's admin-enabled account and today's desysoppings, someone might want to look into the confirmed accounts listed in that Checkuser... Aecis^Brievenbus 00:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Question

Like other sites, should we have one's account lock for a while after 3 incorrect attempts to log in? --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 02:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The maliciously-minded could use that to lock out every administrator at once, so that's not a good idea. Don't forget that our usernames are on display every time we make an edit. -- ChrisO 08:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand blocking an IP for a few hours after a number of unsuccessful attempts to login might be helpful Alex Bakharev 08:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring over unsourced images

At Image:DerSturmer stand.jpg and Image:OctopusNAS1.jpg. Sent to WP:PUI as a compromise, please keep it there.

It helps to remember two things:

• Stuff from That Era is important but unfortunately still under copyright
• When uploading historical photographs a website isn't a source. A link to the archive or institution that has the negatives is.

Dr Zak 05:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Stuff from That Era is most often not under copyright. Take the Octopus image: the latest date it could have been published is 1948. It doesn't appear to have a copyright notice on it, so it probably was not copyrighted. But if we nevertheless assume that it was, it would have been for 28 years. That would take us to 1976. For there to be a copyright on the cartoon today, there would have had to have been a renewal in 1976. Does anyone seriously believe that Seppla renewed his (postulated) copyright in 1976??? - Nunh-huh 05:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there a centralized database where it can be determined if a copyright from that era was renewed, and, if so, is that database available online, or would a check have to be done in person? Crotalus horridus 06:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm slightly confused? I thought that things were copyright by default and no notice is necessary. In Europe anyway. You don't have to register something as copyrighted, it just is. Also, where is the 28 years coming from for copyright length?-Localzuk^(talk) 11:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. In Europe the copyright term is the standard 70 years after the death of the author. (By the way, the tag went away again, could someone keep an eye on it) Dr Zak 12:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If we don't know the originator of a picture and cannot determine its copyright status, then unless there is an overpowering justification for its use we should delete it. --Tony Sidaway 11:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of what the copyright status is, there is no reason why images should be exempt from the verifiability policy. About the only picture that really really everyone knows is the Mona Lisa; everything else needs an attribution line. Nothing but good form. Dr Zak 12:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Duck test used at checkusers

I think, this is one of the worst things, that can be used for proving sockpuppetry. Why? If two ppl are saying the same, then they can be banned as sockpuppets. This bans opinions, not disruptive editors !!! Sockpuppet is what a checkuser proved, that it has the same IP as an other registered user. --193.224.247.34 06:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, if the checkusers were all idiots, maybe it would do that. But they aren't. When they say "duck test" they mean "it's the same pattern as his last 600 sockpuppets, just block him and don't waste our time with formalities". --tjstrf talk 06:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It is easier for Wikipedia that we do not differentiate between users who are in fact the same person or have been acting like another person. This is the definition of "meatpuppet"—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 06:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If a guy has a moustache, like Stalin, same height as Stalin, and even he's Russian, then Stalin is the one, who's editing? --193.224.247.34 06:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

And if a vandal is smart enough to use only public IP addresses, then the only way to decide that some other user is his sock-puppet is using the duck test. Od Mishehu 08:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Duck test has a logical fallacy in it, called ignoratio elenchi. And it is a serious problem. --193.224.247.34 07:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, the checkusers are not idiots. And if you are acting exactly like a guy who is banned for sockpuppetry, then you deserve to be summarily blocked anyway. --tjstrf talk 07:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If someone's Russian, has a moustache, was born in the 1870s, and wants to give the proletariat power, then he's Stalin.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 07:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If someone's Russian, they can't be Stalin Zocky | picture popups 07:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

I've blocked the IP utilizing the duck test that if he's complaining about being subject to the duck test through checkuser, he must be someone blocked as the result of a checkuser.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 07:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh the irony. Do people seriously not think we'll be suspicious when they make what is supposedly their first real edit to AN/I? They might as well just start their posts "Hello, I am a blocked user and would like to complain about you all..." Now if he were posting at Wikipedia talk:Signatures, then maybe I'd be more inclined to believe his story about his "friend". --tjstrf talk 07:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"Oh the irony" you just proved him right, the above ip address has been blocked for the crime of editing here. PS i'm complaining about the duck test therefore i MUST be a banned user? If not what EVIDENCE do you have for blocking this annon.Hypnosadist 09:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Somebody was proved right! We should semi-protect or say "New users or anons complaining about processes used to prevent sock puppetry or vandalism will be blocked from editing Wikipedia for 1 week!" in big red letters on the top of page. :P Funpika 10:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If the duck test works, but you're not a sockpuppet, you're a meatpuppet. Block 'em all anyway. Moreschi ^Talk 13:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, in my understanding, checkuser are using hard evidences to prove that a user is a sockpuppet or not. Obvious socks are (normally) not handled by WP:RFCU but by WP:ANI or WP:SUSPSOCK. -- lucasbfr ^talk 13:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"Block 'em all anyway" Says it all really, fine you've still banned a user for the crime of posting on here, no "hard evidences" were given just asumptions. When the anon requested unblock the second admin said they did not have enough good faith in the anon to un-block but still no evidence that this anon was a sockpuppet as claimed.

Once no evidence is needed to hand out one week long blocks just "i believe its a sockpuppet" (remember they don't know which user it is ment to be) then this is open to massive abuse. Just a warning!Hypnosadist 15:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe the IP belongs to the banned User:VinceB. They have the same location (Budapest, Hungary), the IP has edited an article about VinceB's school[147] and this thread was created after VinceB's most recent sockpuppets User:Pannonia and User:Odbhss were blocked indef.[148] Tankred 18:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the evidence of his sockpuppetry Tankred.Hypnosadist 23:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I believe that evidence to be a lot less solid than it looks if you scratch the surface a bit. The duck test more or less works in that case, and Moreschi's observation above may also be right (i.e., that these guys are "meatpuppets"). However, I fail to see how this justifies "block'em all": the original offender was blocked for his behaviour (policy violations), so if any new guy – even if it turns out he was asked by VinceB to come here and promote the same views – does abide by the policies, blocking them is a violation of WP:BITE rather than anything else. I think the IP is actually right about this point (even if it's Vince, which is pretty plausible even though there are hundreds of thousands of IPs in Budapest – tens of thousands at the ISP owning this particular range – and several thousand students in this particular school). KissL 10:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

So, if I understood you well, Kissl, there are thousands of students in VinceB particular school in Budapest and one of them, just by coincidence, found WP:ANI and complained about a duck test just after another innocent Hungarian newbie was blocked. By coincidence, the style of his/her complaint was extremely similar o VinceB's style (bolding, several exclamation marks, silly historical metaphors, citing logical fallacies). I am sorry, I cannot buy it. Tankred 14:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Mmmmm... You haven't understood me well, I'm afraid. Look what I've bolded above. KissL 15:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Five users vandalising eachother

The following accounts appear to be meant for the sole purpose of vandalizing eachother:

• The Last Saxon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Quintinathan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Joefish253 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Chad Sharman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Hamish007 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

As you can tell from contribs, they've primairly made edits to each other's pages. Either it's a single person doing self-masochism or a group of children playing "Wikipedia Forum". At the very least, I'd recommend protecting their main user pages to cut down on their activity, but feel free to take other action. --Sigma 7 08:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete all the user and user talk pages since these folks are only utilizing them as chat forums. Placeholder account 14:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't recommend deleting their talk pages, as some editors have left other comments (i.e. Talk page vandalism warning). However, I could recommend semi-protecting them. --Sigma 7 22:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The banned user NisarKand

Resolved

User blocked and where possible, contributions were reverted back to the last version prior to RavinBill editing.-- Nick ^t 08:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The banned User:NisarKand is back as RavinBill (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) as confirmed by user-check. [149] Would an admin please block the sock-puppet and revert his contributions? --Mardavich 08:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Eep² (talk · contribs) - major WP:DISRUPT, trolling, and personal attacks

I'm starting to get tired of Eep² (talk · contribs). This user has a history of personal attacks including referring to admins and other users as "wiktators" ([150], [151], [152], [153], [154]), as well as trolling deletion discussions such as the Bob Dobbs DRV and the MFD on his user page ([155], [156]). The user has also made some clear WP:DISRUPT moves, such as creating Wiktator (which I deleted per G10), User:Eep²/eep (now deleted) and User:Eep²/Cathy O'Brien shortly after their respective XFDs opened (despite the fact that the latter will likely be kept); as well as Template:Userbox-wiktators-suck, which I deleted as G10 and T1 although a substed version is on his user page.

I left the user warnings for incivility and trolling, and a final warning after I deleted the userbox. He proceeded to respond with more incivility. I'm posting this here because I've been involved in trying to deal with this user and shouldn't block him myself, but it's a good case for a long-term or indefinite block, in my opinion. --Coredesat 08:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Can't disagree; I remember him from the deletion debate of Eep a while back, he was pretty tiresome back then. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eep (7th nomination) Guy (Help!) 08:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
• I also noticed a bit of recent edit warring where they were trying to slap "voting icons" all over deletion discussions, like this one, and this one. It's tough to believe they're not being intentionally disruptive at this point. WarpstarRider 10:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Eep underway. Guy (Help!) 10:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a note here to say that the WP:DISRUPT shortcut used here is very confusing. I'd expect it to point to our Wikipedia:Disruptive editing guideline, not the Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point guideline. Disruption of Wikipedia is always a bad problem. Doing so to make a point is seductive, and the guideline simply emphasizes that such disruption isn't excused by the wish to make a point.

But this serves to underline the importance of using English as much as possible when writing on Wikipedia. If we want people to understand what we're saying (and if we don't, we shouldn't be editing) then we should try to communicate as clearly as possible. --Tony Sidaway 11:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't Eep^2 blocked a while back? I seem to remmeber a Long Term Abuse section on him. ~Crazytales 21:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Fake secure server?

I have been asked to sign in to Wikipedia via a secure server but I then get a message warning me that the secure server may be a fake. Can you explain please? 86.21.225.104 08:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Wikimedia's https servers use a certificate whose root authority is not trusted by default in IE. You can trust the root (cacert.org) and the issue will probably go away. Guy (Help!) 09:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Verdict

Resolved

 – Blocked by Riana. – Riana_ऋ 11:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The banned user User:Verdict has recently been using sockpuppets to ask for the Brock Lesnar article to be unprotected. [157][158][159] Just hours after I placed an editprotected request on the article's talk page, the guy made a new account I ll Nino0 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) and started editing the temporary page. I have no doubts that the user is Verdict, especially after making his own version on his user talk page (with images from his Commons socks, which I have sorted out now over there). Could somebody please sort this out? Thanks in advance. -- Oakster  Talk   10:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Blocked. – Riana_ऋ 10:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou. -- Oakster  Talk   11:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Request to block sockpuppet of banned editor

Resolved

 – Blocked by Phaedriel. – Riana_ऋ 11:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

LadyHawHaw (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a sockpuppet of Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), as can be seen by the recent edits going over articles that I've reverted to due previous sockpuppets. Please block, thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Just in case anyone's not sure, the account was already tagged as a sockpuppet. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 11:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Please remove improper DYK entry

Hi. Would an admin please remove the current DYK entry on "A Doctor's Report on Dianetics". That is not appropriate for DYK as the rules for DYK specifically state that it is supposed to be NPOV, not topic-centric, and of wide interest. I am disputing the neutrality of the relevant section of the article. The author of the book as a disgruntled ex-partner of Hubbard and his views on Dianetics cannot be taken to be neutral. Thank you. --Justanother 11:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You mean this? "that the non-fiction book A Doctor's Report on Dianetics criticized L. Ron Hubbard's prescription of vitamins and glutamic acid to Dianetics subjects?" That's totally NPOV. It doesn't endorse one view or another on whether the practice is good or bad, it just says that this book criticized it. Mangojuice^talk 13:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Whether or not the book itself is NPOV, the fact appears to be. The article also doesn't look too bad to me. J Milburn 13:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

My only objection to the article is that it is part of a campaign by mostly one editor to fill this project with "reviews" of one-sided books, articles, and reports; essentially short-circuiting the concept of NPOV, i.e. if a highly POV book is being reviewed how can you make that NPOV? That is not a problem for this board though I am curious about what others think. I will be addressing that at some point to gauge the feelings of the community. That said, if we take a POV factlet from that POV book and stick it on the front page, I think that we are giving undue weight to some 50-year-old criticism that had only extremely marginal notabilty before the Scientology critics got hold of it. --Justanother 13:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Justanother is a Scientologist, and he works to actively censor anything that doesn't paint it in an extremely positive light. --Cyde Weys 13:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Justanother is a Scientologist, and he works to actively break the hold on the Scientology-series articles by a small group of off-wiki critics that effectively act as meatpuppets to misuse this project to forward their own highly-biased agenda. And I challenge anyone to point at one of my edits that illustrates Cyde Weys misrepresentation of my activity more than it illustrates my representation of my activity in the Scientology articles. Cyde Weys would marginalize me, something that would be obvious if I were a gay editting articles of gay interest or a black editting articles of black interest but for some reason is acceptable behaviour against a Scientologist editting articles of interest to a Scientologist. And neutral editors and fair-minded critics alike know that I do not censor criticism of the Church of Scientology nor is that my interest. My interest is simply that the Scientology articles are encyclopedic and comply with key policies here. In other words, my interests align with those of all good editors here. --Justanother 13:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

To say that JustAnother "works to actively censor anything that doesn't paint it in an extremely positive light" is not only untrue, it's irrelevant to the matter at hand. Trying to cast aspersions on another editor in that manner is something that wouldn't even fly on a high school debate team. wikipediatrix 15:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with that particular DYK entry. It's a statement of fact (though admittedly not a particularly interesting one from where I'm standing). -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 13:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That is kinda my point too; topic-centric and little broad interest. This is part of a series of similar POV-pushing DYK items that have given criticism of Scientology undue weight and over-representation in DYK. Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scientology#Did you know? (which was started by a fair-minded critic of Scientology.) So my objection is not so much that this one is really really POV but that it is of little interest and part of a pattern; an agenda. --Justanother 14:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If the pattern exists, that's a problem. I know very little about DYK, but that doesn't sound like a very informative entry, and could be seen as disparaging, when taken in a broader context. Criticism of Scientology is not exactly an unknown hobby, or profession... -- nae'blis 14:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. If we assume 1500 DYK entries per year and given the vast universe of information that Wikipedia deals in and the no doubt large numbers of articles started or expanded on a daily basis; given all that, how many DYK entries critical of Scientolgy might we expect to see each year absent any pattern or agenda. I have my own ideas but I would like to hear from others. --Justanother 14:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you all above for the comments stating that the fact/article are NPOV. I work hard on article creation to make sure that the facts/sentences are backed up by multiple citations from reputable secondary sourced material, as was the case with this entry. Thank you for your time. Smee 14:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

I think MOST of the DYK entries about Scientology are improperly skewed to the negative. It doesn't matter if it's properly sourced or not, Smee, I could find plenty of air-tight sources that say all kinds of negative things about any given subject, but that doesn't mean we have a free pass to load them up everywhere we can on Wikipedia. The subtleties of undue weight are, as usual, being recklessly ignored when it comes to articles about controversial subjects. wikipediatrix 15:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I share the same concerns as wikipediatrix, but it's difficult to find positive sources regarding Scientology. Other than Scientology and its associated groups (CCHR, Narconon, etc) and the various personal websites put up by Scientologists, there's very little positive regard. At least, if there is, I haven't seen it yet. .V. _[Talk|Email] 15:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

V, there is plenty of positive material in the press and other reliable sources about Scientology and making good NPOV articles about Scientology is not really a problem. The problem is that a number of professional critics have written scandalous books about Scientology (and other alleged "cults") and one editor in particular has made a mission of creating articles about those POV books and then taking a POV-pushing "fact" from them and submitting it to DYK. That is the pattern, the agenda, and the problem, and the only thing I started this incident to report. I like to say that you cannot make NPOV stew out of POV meat. These books are wildly POV and I am really not sure how to tackle this. Imagine if we started articles on every book on Holocaust denial and then pulled a "fact" from the article for DYK.

Did you know . . . that, according to the book, Did Six Million Really Die?, the scale of the Holocaust had been fabricated by the Allies to, among other things, hide their own guilt over such things as the atomic bombs dropped on Japanese cities?

Certainly I am using a hyperbolic example there but many, if not most, of these "cult" books are no less wildly POV. Scandalous sells and these are books for the general public and heavy on the scandalous. I an not talking here so much about "Doctor's Report" as that is a silly inclusion of a 50-year-old nothing but I am talking about DYK such as this one.

Did you know . . . that TIME magazine's Gerald Loeb Award-winning article "The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power" highlights the suicide of Noah Lottick?

I can show you more in the recent months. --Justanother 16:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This is precisely the case. Scientology has a remarkably negative reputation in the press, in scientific literature, in the legal system, and in public discourse. It is not Wikipedia's job to whitewash this reputation or to make Scientology out to appear more praiseworthy or well-reputed than the sources present it. Rather, it is Wikipedia's job to correctly report the facts of the matter -- and the facts include the reputation.

Neutrality does not mean constructing an artificial balance between "sides" that are not in fact balanced or equal in the real world. It means avoiding prejudice -- but not all judgment is prejudice. When the press, the scientific community, the courts, and outside scholars and historians present an organization in a negative light, it is Wikipedia's job to represent that reputation truthfully -- not to cover it up. --FOo 15:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

There is plenty of respect for Scientology in "the press, .. . the courts, and outside scholars" along with goverments and other religions. Scientology is not hard science, it is a philosophy, so I do not think "the scientific community" has much to do with anything and I have not seen much from "historians". Yours is a broad and untrue generality, Foo. And we are not talking about covering anything up here, we are talking about undue representation of criticism of Scientology in DYK, a "fun" little feature that is supposed to be NPOV. --Justanother 16:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• I have said my piece above - that is, I try my best to make sure that the facts/sentences in new articles I write/create are backed up to multiple reputable secondary sourced material. I appreciate the dialogue and comments made here by other editors, and this will be all for me in this thread, seems like we have significantly discussed this issue relatively well already. Smee 15:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

• I'm still not sure where this positive press is. .V. _[Talk|Email] 17:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• There are links in the various articles; lots of links. Please talk to me on my talk page if you would like me to point them out. --Justanother 17:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

FOo, I agree, wikipedia has a responsibility to report accurately and fairly in its articles. However, it seems to me that DYK implies that it contains interesting tidbits (trivia) about insignificant or rarely known things about interesting things. As in.. "Oh, by the way, did you know that Dr Smith discovered that a mouse actually has 3 eyes today, in 1412?" or "Oh, by the way, did you know that the stunt double for Mavrick was born today? If Scientology has such a negative opinion in the press and seems to be rather controversial, why would DYK be interested in featuring things from the articles written about it? Why would DYK want to be involved in controversial subjects? In doing so, it risks unfairly supporting one side or the other in the controversy and that would be POV, even if it isn't intentional. Just my thoughts.

For what its worth (from above since someone felt that Justanother's Scientology connection somehow made his views less relevant), I'm not a Scientologist. I know virtually nothing about Scientology or their beliefs or practices. Lsi john 18:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Positive/Negative balance required?

When I read the WP:NPOVFAQ part of NPOV which says:

Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them as encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many people feel toward some morally repugnant views; and so forth.

I take it to mean that if verifiable sources only have "negative" things to say about a subject we are not required (or supposed to) artificially balance the POV of said subject's article. Is this correct, if so wouldn't it apply to DYKs? Anynobody 22:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Nice box. --Justanother 22:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Gets the policy across rather concisely. Thanks. Smee 02:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

Complex report from WP:AIV

Moving this here:

• Antiscian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been warned about adding unsourced potentially libelous content to Tucker Max but continues to (and blanks his talk page) Bill.matthews 12:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

When I looked into this, I saw that Antiscian has definitely been involved in some problematic edits, but I don't know about blocking. Other opinions? Mangojuice^talk 12:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Given final warning. Appears to be every expectation he will continue though. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 21:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Another hacked admin account and site-wide vandalism

Hello, I was going to make an edit on Talk:Roman-Persian_Wars when I was confronted with a horrendously obscene image bearing the inscription Encyclopedia? My *ss. What is going on?! Iblardi 13:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

We had a compromised admin account that was used to put Tubgirl in the sitenotice, so it displayed on all pages on Wikipedia. I deleted the image, but who knows how many thousands of people saw it first ... Cyde Weys 13:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify, which account was this? -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 13:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The compromised account was Jiang (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), by the way. It's been desysopped and indef-blocked. --Cyde Weys 13:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, coupling this with the AndyZ thing above, it seems like someone might be brute-force cracking passwords. It strains credibility that the two would independently lose it like that so close to each other. Anyway, thanks for the quick action. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 13:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Why would you need to brute-force crack it when the admin is using "password" as a password - he could be just trying that at random on admin accounts. --Fredrick day 13:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Could be; I was just assuming a dictionary crack (since we don't know what the password for Jiang's account was yet). Is there a logfile of login attempts somewhere? That'd tell us one way or the other. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 14:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Somebody needs to get a captcha up as soon as possible. Sean William 13:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This is absolutely ridiculous. Nishkid64 (talk) 14:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is reaping what it sowed by not having any sensible anti-hacker policies. You should get five login attempts per every five minutes or something. --Cyde Weys 14:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Jiang (or the account hijacker) also deleted the main page, of course. Obviously, the sitenotice vandalism was far worse. —David Levy 14:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Support Cyde's suggestion. I mistype my username or password as much as the next mouse, but there needs to be a limit; after 5 or so failures, there should be a pleasant notice to go have a cup of tea for a while before trying again. Where is the place to go to gently suggest this as a priority to the developers? --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

bugzilla:9816 —Cryptic 14:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Cyde's right. We need some limitations on the amount of times you can attempt to log in. Nishkid64 (talk) 14:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, with the caveat that it should not boot any logged in cookies (per not kicking out other users while actually cracking a different one). -- nae'blis 16:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• I should post that photo to every editor who drags out the tired old saw about adminship not being a big deal. I wonder how many hundreds (or even thousands) of readers that lost us. Kafziel ^Talk 14:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I think this is still about adminship not being a big deal - but keeping your password secure is a seriously big deal. – Riana_ऋ 14:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

User talk:My password is password!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! try it! just blanked Talk:Main Page - informative username and contributions...Moreschi ^Talk 14:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I reverted it.JordanZed 14:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser, anyone? Sean William 14:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

passwords

• Frederick has me thinking now. In the spirit of WP:IAR, I'm going to go through Wikipedia:List of administrators and turn the doorknobs on everybody there, just to make sure we don't get any more unpleasant surprises today. Apologies in advance; here's hoping I come up zeroes... -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 14:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, if you do, for god's sake don't announce the results here :) Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 14:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
    • No offense, Bull, but realize unless you're a steward yourself, you're taking a risk without immediate benefit; I can see a steward or developer running a tool to see who's trying to log in to many admin accounts and finding - you. You might "muddy the waters" for the real vandal. Meanwhile, as Moreschi wrote, say you do find a weak admin account, what are you going to do about it? You can't block it, a compromised admin account can unblock themselves. You can't desysop it without being a steward. I guess you could make a list and send it an email to a developer or steward, but that would not solve the problem much faster than a developer or steward writing such a tool themselves... --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
      • If I found one, I was planning on changing the password to something less guess-able, and making THAT info accessible to a steward through e-mail. That said, your point about throwing up FUD is a good one, so I'll stop for now. It might be easier to run a bot to check this, anyway. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 14:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

A Long password is your friend! And they say paranoia is for the weak? ;) Luigi30 (Taλk) 14:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should start mailing SecurIDs to every new admin. :) Kafziel ^Talk 14:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It appears that both this case and the one with AndyZ are the results of weak passwords. Jiang has revealed that his cracked password was 'fuckyou' (probably a common choice for the lazy) and AndyZ password allegedly was 'password' (although we only have the word of the hijacker for that). So please all admins strengthen your passwords! Then we can start discussing elaborate technical solutions to this problem... --Bjarki 14:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

A simple immediate step we could take that does not involve going into people's accounts would be to drop a note about passwords onto every admin's talk page. 80% of the admins are active enough that they are likely to use WP within the next 48 hours. We could reduce the list of possibly vunerable accounts to just the semiactive, inactive and currently wikibreaking admins in short order. We should remember that not all admins watch these noticeboards. NoSeptember 15:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why immediate security has to be sacrificed for courtesy. Go 'into their accounts' (even though no one is actually looking at what their password is) now, clean up the supposed mess later. --Golbez 15:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh I have no problem going into accounts, I'm just saying that we can do both and in many cases let the admins fix their own accounts and limit the work that needs to be done by the rest of us to only those accounts that are not active right now. It will take some amount of time for the developers or anyone else to start running these checks anyway. NoSeptember 15:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that if any inactive admin accounts are weak, the password should be changed to prevent more of this mess. Two in 24 hours is nuts! (Even if only one is definitely compromised). Another option is to temporarily desysop any weak accounts until their passwords are changed. Radical? Yes. But we don't need anymore of this b.s. -- Flyguy649^talk_contribs 15:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

unblocks?

IN the light of this latest hijacking, what are peoles thoughts on BuickCenturyDriver's blocked status? I am inclined to unblock him - but I have been all along. Viridae^Talk 14:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

No. Definitely not yet. Yes, it's established there is a vandal running around cracking weak admin passwords. It's not established that vandal is not BCD, and several checkusers believe it is. Let's let the checkusers slook at the evidence again. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The IP that hit Jiang's was not BuickCenturyDriver's nor the one that deleted the Main Page last night.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 14:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This one was clearly a copycat (compare the severity), and we should expect more. There are probably a hundred script kiddies trying right now. -- zzuuzz^(talk) 14:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicted)We definitely need to wait before anyone is unblocked. We have to sort everything out, first. Nishkid64 (talk) 14:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Jiang has been unblocked on the basis of his registered email address (which could easily have been changed). This is a fundamental mistake. -- zzuuzz^(talk) 14:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we should unblock BCD, at least it will offer a chance for an explanation and he can do little damage with his account. Ryan Postlethwaite 14:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Um, at a minimum, the checkuser evidence shows that all of Buick's recent edits and AndyZ's block of Ryulong came from the same IP within one minute of each other. The least incriminating explanation would be that Buick saw the main page go down, recreated it, then logged in to AndyZ's account (using the password given in the deletion log) and decided to play a prank on Ryulong. It would be nice if he would acknowledge this. He claims to be on wireless, however if another Wikipedia was using the same wireless connection then there would be multiple edits and users showing up in the checkuser. At a minimum I think a more forthcoming explanation is required. Thatcher131 14:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Errm Thatcher, you might want to double check I seem to recall him saying he was on a wired connection. —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 16:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Claims wireless on his user talk page (fourth unblock request). So, conflicting stories too? He would not be the first proud vandal fighter caught creating his own vandalism. Thatcher131 16:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I would be inclined to leave him blocked for now. The potential harm to him from another day of block is even lower than the potential harm to us if he has bad intentions. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 14:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I say leave him blocked. He can still explain on his talk page if necessary. Kafziel ^Talk 14:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

On a related note, what do people make of this? (It's in relation to a comment I made on IRC a few minutes ago...) Userpage has been deleted. – Riana_ऋ 14:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Obvious trolling.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 15:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

OK. Would have done so myself, but the account is old-ish. – Riana_ऋ 15:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Password cracker to be run over admin accounts shortly

With Jiang's account being compromised and abused, an admin check is considered a good idea. Brion will be running a password cracker over the en:wp admin accounts after checking his morning mail. If you want to keep your admin bit and know, deep in your heart, that your password is a bit rubbish, I strongly suggest changing it. Hint: if it shows up in Google, it's a rubbish password - David Gerard 14:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Please don't misread that as "go type your password into the friendly textbox at www.google.com right now and make sure". —Cryptic 14:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, type it into the search box at http://davidgerard.co.uk/notes/ instead. I've set up a, uh, phishing detector there. Yes, that's right. You can trust me - David Gerard 15:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Gee I guess using one of the months that are not September is not good enough? I mean 1 out of 11 seemed like good enough odds at the time ;-). NoSeptember 15:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You've got an interesting point, actually. I can see some users setting a 'weak' password (I have about three strengths) for when they sign up for the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and forgetting to change it when they become an admin with the extra tools. That certainly seems to be Jiang's story... -- nae'blis 15:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Maybe it should become standard to ask not only for edit summaries or email enabled, but also for strong passwords in RfAs. -- ReyBrujo 15:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

How exactly is it going to be possible to prove that?—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 15:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"Oppose, I just pwn3d your account". Now that's a pretty overwhelming reason not to promote! --Tony Sidaway 15:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, not prove, but it's worthwhile asking: "Have you remembered to ensure that your password is strong"? It's amazing, the things people forget. Moreschi ^Talk 15:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you do manage to own someone's account, you can always have "them" go put something like "Oppose myself, I cannot pick a decent password." Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Please see Wikipedia:Security for the proposed site security policy. See the talk page for a link to background events. --Tony Sidaway 15:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

For the cryptographically-challenged of us, what constitutes a strong password? Luigi30 (Taλk) 15:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The tougher the better. At minimum you should have a combination of letters that don't form a dictionary word and a number that's not easily associated with you (not your birthday, etc.), and it should be 8 characters or longer. Punctuation and use of capital letters don't hurt a bit either. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Letter strings that are not words, some numerals and punctuation thrown in. One password I use elsewhere is the first letter of the names of all of my cousins in birth order - random looking and yet I can always figure it out. NoSeptember 15:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • After your announcement, your family members and family genealogists know your password. So can anyone who checks the public record of births. Time for a new password. (SEWilco 16:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC))

We have a pretty good article on it: password strength. The worst passwords, other than the ones already mentioned above, are names of one's pets or children, which, I read once somewhere, an appalling 60% of people use. Antandrus (talk) 15:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If you watch the movies its always a name and a birthday that the hero guesses correctly on the third try ;-). NoSeptember 16:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Every password is susceptible to a brute force attack. The matter is, to make it last enough so that the attack is worthless. My Operative System professor used to say "Just use a phrase as your password, like "drink whiskey" or "I like smoking". If you are unsure whether your password is weak, but don't want to make it too hard, just duplicate it. Instead of 1234567, use 12345671234567, separated with a space if you want. A password with over 10 characters that is not a dictionary word should not be worth, especially when you are cracking through internet. -- ReyBrujo 15:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Brion ought to run checkuser over all the admin accounts at the same time ;) --Duk 16:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I used to have a password on my old school account that contained 2 letters and was 16 characters long. 1337-sp33k makes for awesome passwords. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 16:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That only lengthens the alphabet by 10-20 characters (depending upon the use of the numbers). Replacing every "E" in a dictionary with "3" is not very difficult. (SEWilco 16:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC))

It's probably worth noting here that most computer systems don't store your actual password. Rather, they store a hash of your password and the hash is probably somewhere between 32 and 64 bits in length. Many password strings will hash down to the same value and with a 32-bit hash, it's not unheard of that your "InCrEdiBlY#secure0password" hashes down to the same thing as, say, "password". (I don't know what hashing scheme MediaWiki uses, BTW.) So if it turns out that the password strength test flunks you, you don't necessarilly need to feel bad about it, you just need to make things better by trying another password.

Atlant 16:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If we're using a hash that's known to suffer collisions, we've got much bigger problems than any individual admin's password... Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Mediawiki uses an MD5 hash salted by user-id. The chance of a (non-deliberate) collision is negligible. —Cryptic 16:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That worries me. MD5 is way beyond broken. Can we change it to a more secure standard like RIPEMD-160, SHA-512, or WHIRLPOOL? Jesse Viviano 19:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

For our purposes, MD5 is still nicely secure. All the attacks so far are collision attacks, which are useful for subverting digital signatures, but are useless for cracking passwords. There are no known preimage attacks on MD5, which is what you'd need to attack hashed passwords. --Carnildo 22:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Recommended reading on this general subject: The Los Alamos chapter of Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman by Richard Feynman. Newyorkbrad 16:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

To sum up the chapter (for those who don't have a copy of the book): often, knowing the person can provide a far better method of password guessing than any sort of brute force attack. It's best to assume that the would-be cracker knows everything about you that a close friend or family member would. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 16:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I hope that nobody reading this thread will consider the advice given in the above thread to be useful in deciding what constitutes a good password. They're formulae and formulae are easily cracked by anyone with a little psychology. A good password generator, particularly one that can generate mnemonic passwords containing randomly mixed case and digits, is much better than these formulae. --Tony Sidaway 16:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a note, try to use as many key sets as possible. A few letters, (both cases) numbers, puncutation, and symbols make for stronger and more difficult passes to break (as long as they are not used for alternitives of phonoic words). —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 17:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

A final note for those wondering about easy to remember but difficult to crack passwords: don't tell anyone your method - don't even give clever little clues. Possibly NoSeptember's "method" above was a double bluff, but even that is dodgy. Just remember, don't brag about how 'clever' your method is - once you tell someone what it is, or even hinted at it, you've potentially weakened your password system. I have a system for changing my password without forgetting it, it goes something like <crackling static noise drowns out all sounds>, so there, now everyone knows and I have to go and change my method. It's not worth it. We should all be clever enough to come up with our own individual methods on top of the guidance given above. Carcharoth 21:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Aw shucks, I was just going to share how I mamipulate the "seed" text with transformaitons basewd on roman cursive. (First step, buy some books with examples of the script; unfortunately, I don't think any are still in print.) -- llywrch 23:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• BTW, is there a limit to how long the password can be? I noted above that long passwords are intrinsically strong. Is this really true? If a password is a single character repeated 100 times, is that (a) secure and (b) can it be entered into the current Wikipedia password system? Of course, unless you like typing something 100 times, you'd have to copy and paste the password from somewhere else. This is the silliest idea I've ever come up with! :-) Carcharoth 21:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Whoops. The cookie would store it for you. No need to type it out 100 times each time. Still, I wonder how long the password crackers go in their attempts? I suppose you have to assume however long you make a password, they will attempt passwords that long. So some random aspect has to be inserted somewhere in the string. Eeeek. I'm coming up with a system and advertising to everyone... <sob> Another system bites the dust. Carcharoth 21:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
    • If you're going the so-secure-I-can't-remember-it route, just type a bunch of random junk. Save it on a TrueCrypt volume or use Password Safe, and either use the cookie to log in or copy/paste it each time (being sure to copy something else into the clipboard after logging in). I think that might be getting into paranoia territory, though. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 22:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

A trick that I often use for strong password is to come up with a phrase, and then build the password from the first letter of each word in the phrase, sometimes using leet speak to replace some words. For example: "Four score and twenty years ago" could be "4s&20ya" By adding emphasis to certain words, you can signal upper case, like "Four SCORE and 20 years AGO" would be "4S&20yA". As long as you can remember the phrase, you are fine. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 22:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Anon users vandalising Featured article and other articles

These anon users whose IP are 59.95.30.220, 59.95.17.75, 203.94.192.142, 203.94.200.55 are removing cited information even after several requests have been made not to vandalize. Please put anon lock on these articles below and block their IP's. The user with IP 203.. seems to have created an account User:Deccanwala and is continuing his personal attacks on me.

Vijayanagara
Origin of Vijayanagara Empire
Talk:Vijayanagara Empire-->personal attack
Seuna Yadavas of Devagiri
Talk:Political history of medieval Karnataka-->personal attack
Rashtrakuta Dynasty(FA)
Political history of medieval Karnataka
History of Karnataka Thank you.Dineshkannambadi 15:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This is not vandalism. I intend to question the doubtful and dubious information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.95.33.220 (talk • contribs) 12:32, May 7, 2007 (UTC)

That's a lot to look through all at once. The Vijayanagara edit war seems to be over the addition of an alternate name, surely not Wikipedia:Vandalism. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 16:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sir, the above user 59.95. is a banned user User:Sarvabhaum. Also, Vijayanagara is a city in Karnataka state, India. The alternate script being used is from a language not official in Karnataka. The official language and script is Kannada whose text has always existed there and is being removed by anon users.Dineshkannambadi 17:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thats like using Italian language/script to write the name of a place in France.Dineshkannambadi 17:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sir morever yadavas of devagiri are a maratha empire and its kannadi origin is disputed. A whole lot of section is devoted on it whereas similar claims abt Rashtrakutas are disposed off. 59.95 is shared by whole city of mine.

Disputed by whom? Can you show the diffs of disputes if at all they are there and how the disputes are resolved? If you have something legitimate to say, come up with valid references and argue over in talk page. Simply adding tags to an already well written article is not the way to go for it. There are already enough references provided for all points you've been tagging. What are you trying to prove without any citations or references? Your empty rhetoric just a disruptive behavior. Gnanapiti 17:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If you are not Sarvabhaum why dont you log in? Also being Anon, perhaps protects you from 3RR which is why you dont login.Dineshkannambadi 17:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I request the admins to revert the anon's edits and sprotect the page. For people who know, its very clear that this is the indef banned (sarvabhaum) trying to circumvent his block. Thanks. Sarvagnya 17:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sir, the fact that this anon user 59.85 is the same as User:Sarvabhaum or one of his sockpuppets comes from the fact he has left a message for admin User talk:Utcursch regarding one of the above articles I have mentioned. Admin Utcursch was the one who arbitered the case of Seuna Yadavas of Devagiri for us late last year-early this year. If 59.95.. is not Sarvabhaum, how did he know which admin to approach.?Dineshkannambadi 18:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Utcursch had himself contacted with me. 59.95 is shared by whole of my city. The earlier users have presented the citations and i can produce it too. The citations which these kannadi editors are using are disputed. If Kannadi script is justified on Yadavas page why doesnt Marathi script in Rashtrakutas and Chalukyas?

Let me explain this for the last time. Kannada was the major language of administration along with Sanskrit in the Chalukya and Rashtrakuta rule. It was also the language of popular literature. There is no shortage of citations to this fact and have been provided. However, There is no proof if Marathi even existed at that point. There is not one shread of Marathi inscription or literature from the above period attributed to the above kings. The first Marathi inscription (which is disputed) is from 983CE. So Marathi cant be included in those articles just to please your ego. In the case of Seuna Yadavas Empire, the situation is different. Most of the Seuna inscriptions are in Kannada, their coins from an early period have Kannada legends and Kannada was a popular language of literature in the Yadava court along with Sanskrit. Marathi literature started later aroud 1190 CE. Several citations from English sources have been provided for this in the respective article. We have been through this with you repeatedly. I dont intend to explain this again.Thanks.Dineshkannambadi 12:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Many people both Telugu Marathi and Tamil have made it clear that they dont find suryanath kamath's works correct or dependable, who is nothing but Karnataka govt sponsered self-congratulatery historian. feel free to use in kannadi articles not in Marathi. Rashtrakutas did have kannadi as major language but as pointed out before (i can produce the evidence again) that a branch of rashtrakutas had Maharashtri Prakrit as official language. Chalukya were of Maratha origin and even had works in marathi as pointed by C.V Vaidya. His views should be included and if no Marathi script can be allowed at chalukyas and rashtrakutas than kannadi script will not be allowed in yadavas of devagiri. Yadavas of Devagiri have nothing to do with kannadi language their ancestors might be but not they. kannadi bragging and its script will not be allowed there. Its a matter of pride of our state and history. dont kannadize each and every article u come across.

Sri Lanka Tamils (native)

The sites should not be removed on the false claims that they are lies by the users. Admin. should be more vigiliance over this issues.Ramkupta 15:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This is an issue to be discussed at the article's talk page with the other editors rather than an incident requiring administrator attention. It seems you've made one edit (adding some external links), and then posted this message here. Give Wikipedia:Consensus a chance to develop. Sancho 15:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Complex vandalism by 83.206.63.250 (talk · contribs · logs)

83.206.63.250 (talk · contribs · logs) has repeatedly changed MDS America against consensus. (See the first history page of MDS America for 11 edits by this IP). See his Talk page for warnings for his past activities. We believe that this editor is Jean-Claude Ducasse, who is an official of the MDS International company. For general background on this case see the entry for MDS International at the conflict of interest noticeboard. At one time we were planning to cite him for making legal threats, but this was postponed in the interests of diplomacy. (The problem was entered at AN/I, and all the legal threat pointers are included in the nominator's statement in the successful AfD for MDS International). Since repeated attempts to engage him in reasonable discussion have failed, and he has continued to make nonsensical edits, I'm requesting at least a one-week block of his IP account. For now, this would leave him free to continue editing as User:Jeanclauduc if he wishes to do so. EdJohnston 16:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Isabella Blow

Resolved

died this morning according to an IP address. No source given. Worrying. - Kittybrewster (talk) 16:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Reverted by Kafziel. When in doubt, revert it: if she's really dead, someone will put it back. Placeholder account 17:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It's been sourced. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 20:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hijacking of all links on article page

An anonymous IP (registered to Moscow State University hijacked All-terrain vehicle with this edit[160], such that clicking anything on the page leads it to the site that he/she was spamming. I have forgotten -- what is the proper way to request the developers to look into software ways to block this kind of hijacking entirely? --Nlu (talk) 16:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that sort of scripting is already disabled on wikipedia, I just checked, it had no effect on my browser at all--VectorPotential^Talk 16:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Correction, I just tested the script here, and it seems to be doing something, but it doesn't look what it was designed to do, maybe firefox is protecting me from whatever its intended effect is?--VectorPotential^Talk 16:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The script works in Safari. Luigi30 (Taλk) 17:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It crashed Firefox for me. Anyway, I believe what needs to be done is to get a developer with the proper access to modify the internal anti-spam regexp to catch this latest variant. (Might want to ask on #wikimedia-tech in IRC.) Of course, that will only help until the spammers come up with yet another version, but short of banning CSS absolute positioning (and a bunch of other features) entirely, I don't think there's much else that can be done. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 19:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The Disruptive Element

background behaviour

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&diff=next&oldid=119159618 Quack... what the **** is wrong with you?
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=117614259 what a ****ing joke

background of the Wikipedia community article

• Article history http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&curid=9902773&action=history
• Current article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_community
• Old discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipedia_community#Trivia
• Current discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipedia_community#Added_trivia_section

Editor shows no sign of stopping

Edit warring has not stopped.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=121865421
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=123601932
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=126220209
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=126313643
5. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=126646308
6. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=126917924
7. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=127019374
8. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=127019506
9. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=127177044
10. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=128753813

Editor was warned that users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ned_Scott&curid=3708061&diff=126741715&oldid=126740144
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ned_Scott&diff=next&oldid=126741715

Ned Scott is edit warring against consensus and was warned to stop.

He won't listen to other Wikipedians. This is blockworthy. Please help. Thanx. :) - Mr.Gurü 16:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Why does your signature have an umlaut? --Tony Sidaway 16:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Like many Wikipedians, I like to have a unique sig. :) - Mr.Gurü (^talk/_contribs) 17:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Yours and Crohnie's trivial additions to the article were made against guidelines and without consensus. I can agree Ned Scott was uncivil throughout the discussions, but he has already been warned for it. If anyone here needs to be severely reprimanded right now, then it's you. Michaelas¹⁰ 17:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Furthermore, I don't see a point in creating such a lengthy discussion regarding this obvious issue. Michaelas¹⁰ 17:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• So what exactly are you expecting to happen here QuackGuru (talk · contribs)? You've listed a series of links that have already been reported and discussed here as background, then a series of links where you are adding content that is pretty clearly against Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles, and Ned Scott (talk · contribs) keeps removing it. The solution is to stop adding trivia to the article.--Isotope23 17:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Multiple editors have reverted Ned Scott. There is consensus among editors to include the fully referenced material. Guidelines about trivia are to include and not blank the section. I have integrated the trivai section into the body of the article per policy and style. If Ned Scott continues to remove the information against consensus, what is the next step? Any thoughts. :) - Mr.Gurü (^talk/_contribs) 17:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Update

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=prev&oldid=128986616

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=128986616

I have integrated the trivia section into the body of the article and I was reverted by Michaelas10. Need some advise. Should the trivia section remain or should it be incorporated into the article? :) - Mr.Gurü (^talk/_contribs) 17:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I was following the advise of Isotope23 who wrote in part on the discussion page: "Please work this into the main article text."[161] After I integrated it into the article I was reverted without explanation. I do not understand. Please help. :) - Mr.Gurü (^talk/_contribs) 18:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You've retrieved it in the exact same form with exception of the title — that changes absolutely nothing. If you're interested in properly integrating it, please add it within the relevant paragraph, or create a new section devoted to community issues. Personally I strongly object to such additions, which feel trivial and self-referential; not to mention all the vandalism-related issues are discussed on the main Wikipedia article. I'm willing to mediate the matter on the talk page if any disputes arise. Michaelas¹⁰ 18:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Where do you believe is the place to add it within the relevant paragraph. You did not attempt to add it to any place. You simply reverted. Your edit was not helpful. Further, you are not informing me where to add it. Please, if you will, suggest a title and where to put it. Thanx. :) - Mr.Gurü (^talk/_contribs) 19:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted it because it was against consensus. I believe a good compromise for now would be papering the text in the talk page for review of other editors. Michaelas¹⁰ 20:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

How was it against consensus? I integrated the content. Multiple editors already reviewed the trivia section and they want it in the article. Multiple editors have reverted Ned Scott to include the section. The content was reviewed and consensus was reached. :) - Mr.Gurü (^talk/_contribs) 23:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Update

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=129037176

• Ned Scott blanked the Community activities section against consensus. What is the appropriate step to take about this? Is Ned Scott allowed to blank the section repeatedly? Is Ned Scott's behaviour correct? Or is Ned Scott's behaviour wrong? Any suggestions. :) - Mr.Gurü (^talk/_contribs) 00:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Quack, I have done nothing wrong in these events. About the worst thing that I've done was when I snapped at you on the Essjay article, but we've been over that already, it was even discussed on this page. Just because you attempt to present an editor as disruptive doesn't make them disruptive. Making little summaries that say "this user is disruptive" or "this user is reverting against consensus" is misleading and false, and a really cheap way to try to get a leg up on such a painfully lame dispute. -- Ned Scott 03:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and for those who haven't seen it, Wikipedia:Requests for comment/QuackGuru. -- Ned Scott 03:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Ksy92003

Hi, I don't know if this is the right place to report this, but this user has continually gotten in trouble with multiple people for undoing other people's formatting and template problems. In fact, if you look at his talk page, I have counted no less than 7 different people have left a nastygram on this author's talk page for his issues, all in separate matters. And that doesn't even count the two admins who warned him for incivility. What can be done about this user? Clearly, no one telling him how to act is helping. The Evil Spartan 17:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If he doesn't respond to communication well, how about a user conduct WP:RFC? It's hard for admins to take summary action in a case like this, because the issues are too complex. If RFC doesn't seem right, check out Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for some other ideas. Mangojuice^talk 17:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Prester John

User:Prester John has been removing every mention of the word "God" in Islam-related articles, even when next to the word "Allah". Obviously, he wants whoever reads these article to believe Muslims believe in a god called Allah. See his contributions for more detail. He has even created a userbox entitled "Allah is Satan". People like this have no place in Wikipedia, people like this have a certain agenda that they wish to apply. I hope immediate action is taken regarding this user. ^Klak_Sonn^Talk 17:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

See this as well. He has been warned too many times. ^Klak_Sonn^Talk 17:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I've asked the user to explain the "God" removals. We'll see what comes of that. Some of the userboxes may be T1. I've already taken User:Prester John/Userbox/Hate. ··coelacan 18:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, User:Prester John/Userbox/Moman was only intended to inflame. I don't know why I didn't catch that the first time around. ··coelacan 20:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest, if it's technically possible, looking very carefully through the history of articles this user has requested be speedied? I've noticed that the third of three ways listed on his talk page to "welcome new users" reads, "When a Liberal writes an article you may need something like this: {{db-author}}." He may be tagging things he doesn't like with spurious db tags in the hopes that admins won't look very carefully at the speedydelete request. --Dynaflow 21:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh Dynaflow, please look through my history to aleviate your fears. Klaksonn People may have a different opinion than yours that doesn't compromise their ability to edit in a "Wiki" fashion. There is no agenda. The referencein the incident you are refering to uses the quote "Allah". Why would we not use the phrase that is part of the reference? It is POV to render this to "God". There has much debate for over a thousand years as to if this is true. Many scholars conclude that Allah is in fact Satan, another POV, albiet the polar opposite POV. To avoid confusion or favoring one opinion over another, let's just use what the reference uses shall we? As per Wiki normal procedure. Prester John 00:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Klaksonn. about being "warned too many times", I think you are refering to other past incidents, where I have actually complied with the final ruling. In great contrast to yourself I might add. Prester John 01:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

He is in violation of WP:MOSISLAM.--Kirby♥time 02:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Not true. Read it again. This time pay real hard attention to the phrase "unless used as part of a quote." Prester John 02:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

These edits were not inside quotes. ··coelacan 02:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

No. They are WP:OR. Prester John 03:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

To cut to the chase: you are engaging in tendentious editing and promotion of the notion that Allah is Satan. The word اﷲ translates to God in English, and there's no original research in that fact. If you continue to remove "God" from Muslim articles without gaining consensus on the articles' talk pages, I will block you to prevent further WP:POINT disruption. ··coelacan 03:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Wait. Your contention is that it violates WP:OR to equate the word "Allah" to the word "G-d"? Does that apply as a matter of linguistic schism, meaning that 'Dios' 'Dieu' 'Gott' and so on should be eliminated by the same rules, or as a matter of religious schism, meaning 'Ad-nai' and 'El-heynu' should be removed because they might not translate into 'G-d'? Your coments that 'Allah' is actually Satan suggest the latter. If so, how do we handle matters of Latin and Aramaic/Amharic words for 'Supreme being'? Do we go by chronological manifestation, or by 'this is the English wiki so use English'? ThuranX 04:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

What you are doing is very offensive to Arab Christians.--Kirby♥time 03:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Listen. Both of you. Here's what you are going to do. You are going to go and read, and cognitively understand, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Islam-related articles). Once you have realised that these issues have been dealt with long before us, you will accept that all quotes (per general wiki procedure) and all WP:OR will be rendered as per wiki policy. Threats of blocking just do not cut it. Especially from admins. Prester John 04:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This isn't going to be resolved until you understand that "Allah" is an Arabic word. Nobody in France prays to God. Neither does anyone in Germany. They pray to Dieu and Gott, respectively. It's the same fucking thing, except in a different language.--Kirby♥time 04:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you really think I don't know that "Allah" is an Arabic word? Like I said, This issue has been resolved in Wikipedia many times before us. Please read, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Islam-related articles). In summarry If Allah is used in the quote we use Allah. Prester John 04:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

So then... [162] canbe explained how? ThuranX 04:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I read the MOS page on Islam-related articles, and I understand the quote exception to be intended to prevent tampering with text taken directly from sources (in line with common good journalistic practice). I do not read that to apply to all texts referencing the quote, which seems to be (and forgive me if I am mistaken) Prester John's assertion. I find the justification of the above edit as application of the no original research policy rather odd and would appreciate further explanation of this. What's more, I'm very unconvinced that simple transliteration of "Allah" into "God" is at all a contentious editorial decision. I'd like to point out that Christianity does not own the word "God", even the capitalized form. -- mattb 05:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Please see this [163]. A greater attempt to offend a class of people I have not encountered. Prester John 05:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

User:M.V.E.i. and User:62.90.101.55

Resolved

Would it be possible to check if these are the same? I gave a WP:3RR warning to one regarding Ashkenazic Jews and the other one seems to have popped up. Best, --Shirahadasha 18:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, handled this. Best, --Shirahadasha 21:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Edit review, Daniel Brandt

I'd like some people to review this edit, made for the reasons I specified in the edit summary. Maybe there's some politics being played here that I don't know about, but I found it hard to believe that had lasted for very long in the article. Moreschi ^Talk 18:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

There is politics being played here that you don't know about. I don't completely know about them myself, frankly, but here is at least one link Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive85#Jeff_Merkey_wishes_to_return_to_en:wp. I personally worry about the section, but there is, at least, a good faith effort being made to source it. I improved the refs technically, but don't have a strong opinion about the section. If it does manage to get peace, it's not so horrible a blotch on the article. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 18:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, also read this: Jeff V. Merkey, and Talk:Jeff V. Merkey, especially the Jimbo Wales edits. See, he is apparently another of the somewhat notable people that had issues with his own bio here, so may have a unique point of view, that we should use constructively, if possible. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 18:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we should try to improve the section rather than deleting it wholesale as long as there are no specific BLP concerns (which I dont believe there are). I think not giving it a chance would eb unhelpful givent he fruaght politics re this case. I would also say that HiveMind2 is now a 404, which I imagine is good news to admins, and appears to be directly connected to this case, SqueakBox 20:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Not only was there BLP Concerns with that section (just not with Daniel Brandt), the whole section of "Positive Influences on Wikipedia" is the worst kind of OR, hopelessly PoV, Navelgazing and the section had been subtly turned into what I considered an attack on an editor who (even though I think he's way off base on this one), is editing in good faith. I've been bold and removed the whole thing. SirFozzie 20:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Please bring BLP concerns to the talk page. I am not sure to which editor you refer being attacked, can you let me (by email or on my talk page if necessary), SqueakBox 20:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that we need a section on Brandt's influence on Wikipedia; it seems like it'd run afoul of WP:ASR. I'd be OK with including that first sentence from the graf in some other section of his article, since it's more about Brandt than about us. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 20:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Another rogue?? Conscious (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

First reporting, etc.

EMERGENCY DESYSOPPING Main page deleted

Looks like it's happened again, User:Conscious deleted the main page. I attempted to restore but someone thankfully was quicker.--Fuhghettaboutit 18:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thankfully somebody desysopped him. This is getting a little ridiculous. New age of vandalism perhaps? Darthgriz⁹⁸ 18:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I undeleted the page. It appears to be compromising of his pass word or he left the system logged on. Please do something fast otherwise history shall be repeated. --Bhadani (talk) 18:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Look at the bright side: we are purging admin accounts with easily crackable passwords. -- ReyBrujo 18:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I figured this was the result of a hack; after years of nothing like it, two admins would run amok in this fashion so close in time to one another? --Fuhghettaboutit 18:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

And in the processa are getting images of tubgirl in the site notice.... I know, I'm not looking on the bright side --Iamunknown 18:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Similar thread on WP:ANI I suggest keep it at one place. :) --- A. L. M. 18:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that administrators should be careful about their passwords. Moreover, it is a cause of concern that such incidence has happened at an interval of hardly few days. The Main Page was deleted by User:Conscious at 18:15 and undeleted at 18:17 by me. Still about two minutes had elapsed and few more minutes before User:Conscious could be desysopped. It was faster compared to the last incident, but still a cause of concern for we all. Yes. we should keep the thread at one place. --Bhadani (talk) 18:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that all admins should change their passwords to ten or more characters, and we should implement something in the software so that any admin after a certain time passes, say 4 months, who has a password with less than ten characters, cannot edit/access admin powers until the password change is made (or something along those lines). I haven't the foggiest notion of whether this is technically feasible.--Fuhghettaboutit 19:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I am copying this at WP:ANI to keep the comments at one place. --Bhadani (talk) 18:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Isn't this happening a little too easily and often? HalfShadow 23:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Another rogue??

See here. Main page deleted. Currently blocked but for how long? Can someone get on IRC and try to get a Steward's attention? - Alison ☺ 18:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• De-sysopped already, but not before deleteing the mainpage and blocking a dozen admins - Alison ☺ 18:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Wtf is going on here?? So many comprimised accounts / rogue admins.  :\\\ --Iamunknown 18:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

An admin Conscious (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has been blocked indefinitely after a report to WP:AIV about him going on a rampage, does anyone know the circumstances. Was he on a rampage? The Sunshine Man 18:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Yep. Blocked a bunch of admins. Deleted main page with "Bet you can't guess MY password!", etc, etc. *sigh* - is someone out there brute-forcing admin passwords? - Alison ☺ 18:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Conscious was compromised and deleted the main page five minutes ago. Can we poke the devs to hurry up with the password scripts? Luigi30 (Taλk) 18:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

So... when's that password cracking thing going to occur? -- tariqabjotu 18:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I was blocked. This is getting ridiculous. Will (aka Wimt) 18:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Quick questions, what happens to these admins that get emergency desysopped? Is that game over for them completely even though it's just there passwords that have been cracked? Also, what about if the devs password cracking finds your account has a weak password? Will that be a permanent desysopping? Ryan Postlethwaite 18:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm starting to feel a little uneasy about all this. Who will this fiend strike next? --LuigiManiac 18:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If certain administrators are irresponsible enough to have such simple, vulnerable passwords (such as "fuckyou" which apparently was the case for Jiang), I no longer can trust them with adminship. Desysopping and banning is certainly in order. They can always create a new account without the stigma of the compromised account. -- tariqabjotu 18:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

All this was said yesterday. Simple solution, folks, and this is no-brainer stuff. No passwords in plain English. Add non-alpha chars if you can. Use a language other than English. Make it greater than eight characters - Alison ☺ 18:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Re-adminnning is up to the discretion of the bureaucrats. I assume that they can choose to re-op an account if they are satisified that the original user has regained control, or they may take the view expressed by Tariq. You might want to pop over to WP:BN and see what's up. Thatcher131 18:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Desysopping such accounts I can understand, banning seems harsh and unnecessary (assuming we can be reasonably certain they are no longer compromised). Once the account is desysopped, it can't do harm of this sort anymore, and I find it unnecessary to consider such a user banned for doing something stupid, but not malicious. Heimstern Läufer 18:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, banned users would not be allowed to "create a new account without the stigma of the compromised account" as Tariqabjotu puts it. Leebo ^T/C 18:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Indefinite banning goes too far, even indefinite desysopping goes too far. It's not intentional vandalism, it's not criminal recklessness like actually giving out a password, it's just carelessness in not picking a strong enough password, which, frankly, isn't a skill that everyone could be assumed to have learned in grade school. Leaving blocked and desysopped for a few days until the developers run a utility and implement the requested feature may be useful (writes someone who quickly changed their password a few hours ago, just in case...) :-) --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 18:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Mine was in mostly-Gaelic (which even I have a hard time spelling!), but fixed now to something completely incomprehensible. -- nae'blis 19:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest leaving a talk page in every admin page to suggest immediate change of password if it has less than 8 characters or only letters. I would suggest a checkuser to see whether the same individual is cracking, or if this is a global attempt. Who knows, maybe someone learned how to crack passwords with PS3. -- ReyBrujo 18:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Solution

To limit damage, couldn't we get the dev's to remove the delete button from the main page? At least fr the short term. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, why would we even need a delete button on the main page? Darthgriz⁹⁸ 18:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If losing the main page for a minute is the price for catching a compromised account, I think it is worth the cost. -- ReyBrujo 18:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Ugh, and I got blocked in this one... and I was actually trying to undelete the main page as it was already deleted at the time I was there :( Dangit! —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 18:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I imagine whoever's stealing accounts would have no problem making a delete URL without benefit of the button. Friday (talk) 18:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with ReyBrujo: it gets restored in 20 seconds, and it's a fast and easy way for us to see who is compromised. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 18:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Removing a button won't do anything. You can just go to another article and click delete, and then replace the title with "Main Page". Perhaps it would be best if the Main Page couldn't be deleted at all, unless you get in contact with a developer or something. Nishkid64 (talk) 18:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This is easily done with CSS. But that wouldn't remove the possibility of deleting it, though. Jon Harald Søby 18:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not a good idea to automatically resysop the compromised admins, even if they can prove who they are (which seems very unlikely to me in the general case). The presumption should be, I think, that someone stupid enough or lazy enough to have his account compromised should go through Requests for adminship again. --Tony Sidaway 18:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, 100% agreed. These compromised sysops aren't entirely innocent victims. --Cyde Weys 19:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Being technically savvy isn't really considered by most as a requirement for adminship. Friday (talk) 19:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Knowing enough to pick a good password damn well should be. --Cyde Weys 19:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Friday. Picking a good password isn't a skill that was taught in school until a few years ago; we do not want to effectively limit adminship to twenty-somethings and below. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 19:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Picking non-random passwords is entirely different from picking passwords that any naive person can simply guess. Not choosing "11111" as your ATM password is pretty obvious, and ATMs have been around for forty years. —Centrx→talk • 20:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Well as a thirtysomething arts graduate I certainly know about password security - as anyone would who's worked in a large office for the past 15 years.. There's no excuse for this and it puts the site at risk. Secretlondon 21:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Indeed. We cannot punish people for something we did not warn them about. I would suggest keeping a history of email addresses for Stewards to contact if an account has been compromised, and to upload public keys at a Wikipedia server so that people with compromised accounts can prove they are themselves and not crackers. -- ReyBrujo 19:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree with Tony - protecting one's password and having a strong password is an implied attribute of an administrator though I do believe that this must be a case of compromised password as I had indicated immediately after undeleting the main page. We should look to the future and try to advise all the administrators to be more careful. --Bhadani (talk) 19:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

And I am inclined to agree with Friday. I must have 50 passwords, some of which I have had for years and have never changed because they don't seem like the kind of accounts that someone would spend the time or effort to try to crack. I suspect many people haven't historically thought of their Wikipedia account the same way they do their PayPal or bank accounts. -- DS1953 ^talk 19:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Starting immediately, every new admin needs to be instructed in RfA's to get a decent password. Obviously it doesn't guarantee that they do but in most cases I think it will be enough, I think this is just something that most people don't think too much about. As for the cases we have seen today, I don't think these admins need to be permanently desysoped. If they can establish beyond doubt that they have regained control over their accounts we should forgive and forget, there was no malicious intent on their behalf. But it also needs to be made clear that in the future, the response won't be this lenient. --Bjarki 19:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"A weak password = 5 minutes to crack". "A stronger password = couple of weeks to crack". Please read suggestion by SFC9394 below. That is best solution with stronger password. --- A. L. M. 19:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Stronger passwords take repeated brute-force attempts by a computer program. These passwords are simple enough that any naive person could log in with them, even accidentally. Having captchas or delays after x attempts does not prevent that. Admins still need to have decent passwords. —Centrx→talk • 21:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

A discussion of a day or two at ANI should make clear which admins the community is ready to restore promptly and which they are not. Bureaucrats are selected for their judgment, they can interpret consensus from reading the discussion. We do not need any sort of precedent that emergency desysoppings must go through RfA, that should only happen if ArbCom requests it or no bureaucrat is willing to resysop at the user's request. Plus if we think of these as preventative desysoppings, once the password situation is handled by the developers, where is the risk of a repeat password failure with the same admin? NoSeptember 19:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

To A. L. M. - yes, a system where admins are forced to change passwords periodically, and use passwords of a prescribed minimum characters using special characters, etc. --Bhadani (talk) 19:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, why can't I see the IP I am logged in? I either use the static from work, or the dynamic from home, both resolving to Argentina. AOL users may, this way, understand they must change ISP ;-) -- ReyBrujo 19:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Just log out and make a sandbox edit. -- nae'blis 20:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You can also use [DNS Stuff, It will show you your IP in the upper right hand corner.Cascadia 20:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

These suggestions that we shouldn't be "punishing" administrators by removing the bits that they couldn't be bothered to protect from compromise are really beyond the pale. If someone cannot be bothered to protect Wikipedia, they shouldn't be an administrator. If they're too stupid to do so, they shouldn't be an administrator. If we cannot tell whether they are the person we sysopped, they shouldn't be an administrator. If they feigned a compromise after a spree, they shouldn't be an administrator. It costs us nothing to ask them, politely, to go and ask the community for their admin bits back. Doing anything else is asking for trouble. --Tony Sidaway 22:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Another one

Marine 69-71 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)? - auburnpilot talk 18:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Great. Is it possible to re-assign to all admins passwords? And e-mail them or something? —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 18:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

We're not going to have any admins left. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd be scared to send plain-text email, wouldn't you? User:Psu256 18:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

yeah we will :) Those of us with secure passes :) Don't worry about that —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 18:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

So what does this guy do when there are no longer any admins with weak passwords? Hopefully not go after normal users. Funpika 19:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yup, looks like it. Someone is systematically cracking all admin accounts with weak passwords. I knew this day would come ... Cyde Weys 18:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thing is they are wasting their time just deleting the mainpage. I won't violate BEANS, but it strikes me there is far worse that could be done if they had any intelligence. Should the login code not be modified to make this more difficult? I don't have intimate knowledge of the process, but presumably brute force means just that - why not allow 5 login attempts per hour (coded at the login level not at the html level) on an account? A brute force attack on that would be a waste of time. SFC9394 19:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Wikipedia will need to follow the ways of SOX type security for admin counts. Every 90 days new pw, etc.Agne^Cheese/^Wine 19:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you really want to reduce security like that? The single biggest result of requiring frequent password changes is that people will use passwords that are easy to remember, and therefore easy to guess. --Carnildo 22:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

We cannot have it lock out users after X tries, for the simple reason that if I did not like you for some reason I could simply set up a program to "fake" login to your account, and you would never be able to log in again. It has to be tied to the IP that is attempting to log in. The best option albit broken for those that can't see, is captchas. —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 19:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

An other idea thrown in the wind could be to require all admins to have their e-mail address filled in, and to send a confirmation email after, say 3 unsuccessful logins? And you need to click a link in the e-mail to reset your password. -- lucasbfr ^talk 19:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That would work - I would say that the email link just takes you back to the login, no password reset - that way the security stays on our side not on an email system of unknown quality. It also basically solves the problems that Eagle brings up - an "attacker" can knock you out but you can control at what point you go back in - a DOS attack is the only way that would be vulnerable, but then the whole of WP is vulnerable to that. SFC9394 19:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This is the best suggestion so far. Well said SFC9394. --- A. L. M. 19:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Damn it. Someone should spam all the admins to get stronger passwords.--Pharos 19:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I would not be opposed to that. —— Eagle 101 19:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the IP is? Is it still the same as BuickCenturyDriver? The Evil Spartan 19:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

So far, except for Buick's block of Ryulong, its all been done through open proxies. Thatcher131 19:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

We can't assume all the compromised accounts have been used to vandalize yet. Ideally we could check if there have been a lot of attempts at logging in over the last two days for all admin accounts, but we may not keep those logs at the moment. It would make sense for "someone" to check how many admin accounts have had their email changed since this started - such a change, especially if the password has been changed too, could indicate a compromised account. -- Siobhan Hansa 19:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9816 has been made, not sure if it's a duplicate yet, since it's so new. -- nae'blis 19:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Sending a msg to all admins to change any weak PWs seems like a good idea to me. Changign the code in future to forbid setting weak PWs (with some reasonable def of "weak") on any account might be a good idea. Code to block more than a certian small number of login attempts within a fixed tiem for a given account would be reasonable -- such a block should extend only over a few minutes, but that is enough to significantly complicate a pw cracking script. Use of captcha after say 5 unsuccesful attempts to log in within, say an hour, might be a good alternative, but if so, there must be visual and audio versions at least, and if possible a text version. We need to avoid compromised accoutns, particularly compromised admin accounts, in future, however, lets not go overboard. A requirement to change PWs on a regular basis would make things very hard for those who take extended breaks, or are otherwise only occasional editors. DES ^(talk) 19:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It looks like they started the day with these passwords. I would assume the worst, that they have more. hombre de haha 20:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, my password was hacked and my admin powers stripped. I started with Wiki years ago and at that time did not even think that someone would want to hack into the Pedia to do some harm. Since then the Pedia has grown and is subject to such childish behavior of these hackers. I have changed my password, but would like my admin powers returned. I have never abused them and only used them when there is a persistent vandal. I invite you all to look at my user page and you can see my dedication to the Pedia. Is there someone who can return my powers? Tony the Marine 20:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • You need a bureaucrat. Try the Wikipedia:Bureaucrat's noticeboard. For what it's worth, if you absolutely guarantee you picked something no other human being will imagine without seriously strong medications, or can pronounce without a mouthful of marbles, I support your reinstatement; you have done a lot.--AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I find that to be inappropriate at this time. Securing a password is a basic step to being a Wikipedia editor, not administrator. Someone who's account had such a weak password which did such blatant damage to the encyclopedia is hard to trust as an admin in my view. // Pilotguy 21:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm certainly not resysopping any compromised accounts at the moment. For one thing we have no idea whether you are really you. This is also a MAJOR security breach not something to be brushed off with a "very sorry won't happen again". It's up to the community to decide whether they think you should all go through rfa or not.Secretlondon 21:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
        • • I'm all for strong password protections, but lets not beat up too much on the admins who've made a mistake. The fact is that until the last few days, Wikipedia didn't have a secure log-in function. We could also have easily set the system to require strong passwords. On a personal level, I've known Tony the Marine since I first started at WP and he's as good an editor and admin as there is. He made a mistake with his password, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the admins here have weak passwords. I'd support him regaining his admin abilties. But that said, I do understand the need to sort through all this before doing that. Best, --Alabamaboy 22:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• I endorse this product or statement. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 22:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Tony, you mean you set a weak password and you haven't changed it in all this time? And you don't see anything wrong with this? --Tony Sidaway 22:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Two wrongs don't make a right. He was wrong to set a weak password, the Wikipedia community will be doublepluswrong to strip his hard-earned adminship in punishment for something someone else did. I mean Christ, a war didn't start, nobody died, a hacker did some vandalism to an online encyclopedia. I figured the admins would be emergency desysopped, at the longest desysopped until they proved their identity somehow, but another Rfa? That's punitive, vindictive, and just silly. Let's realize the actual gravity here. --Tractorkingsfan 00:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, I've been using my passwords-set for insecure sites (ie, don't care if I lose it, I'll generate another) for wikipedia, especially since it gets transmitted in plaintext. (People don't take plaintext passes as seriously.) --Kim Bruning 22:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC) (On the gripping hand, my GPG key is signed by one of the devs, so it's not like you couldn't confirm my identity really quickly by email if you really really had to :-) )--22:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• I very strongly feel that Tony and the others who were victims today should get their sysop status back, after successfully proving their identity of course. It never been policy that poor password choice = permenent desysopping. Considering how egregiously bad a user's behavious has to be to be desysopped, such a punishment for choosing a lame password is ridiculous. Furthermore, whoever is behind the attack clearly wants to disrupt Wikipedia, and while silly crap like deleting the mainpage causes a few moments of annoyance, removing a number of perfectly good admins would have a negative effect on Wikipedia for quite some time. Why let a vandal win? Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
• I was just made aware of this incident, but from my years on this website, I only can validate that Tony has been an extremely responsible and dedicated administrator on this site. Apparently a vandal has stolen his identity to cause harm to the site's mission, however, I feel that Tony should be given the benefit of the doubt that he is not responsible for such vandalism. Feel free to contact me if you like and I can provide you with countless time has has come to assist, mediate, and contribute to the site. I feel that in this time and age with identity theft on the rise that he should be given the benefit of the doubt and that his powers be restored. --XLR8TION 01:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
• As a contributor to Wikipedia who has added a lot of value to pages, I find some of the responses brow-beating Tony for his weak password (what IS weak today? hackers are getting better and better) to be absolutely uncalled for. Some of the responses above that Victim blaming remind me of why admins like Lucky 6.9 and others have left Wikipedia. Instead of banding together when one of our most valuable contributors is under assault, we take the opportunity to give them a tongue-lashing. This is why people leave Wikipedia. If Tony isn't given his SysOp status back, I will reconsider my own contributions to Wikipedia, because to not get it taken care of, without blaming Tony for an oversight (Wikipedia isn't our bank account, stock trading account, e-mail, etc., so it stands to reason a person wouldn't think it a high priority to put in a Fort Knox-worthy password), then it will say a lot. To those contributors who take the opportunity to blame the victim: spare us all your bizarre schaedenfreude and superiority diatribes. --David Shankbone 01:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
• I second David Shankbone's statement. As I said previously, Tony has been a great editor and admin. There is no reason for excessive victim blaming, especially when Tony has admitted his mistake and corrected the situation and when Wikipedia hasn't been set up to be a secure log-in system. Are we seriously going to let a hacker win by driving out one of our best?--66.219.188.165 01:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
• I agree, it makes no sense to punish someone for making an innocent mistake. But we just better have good ID verification before we restore any of the compromised accounts' sysop bits.--Pharos 01:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
• I agree as well. For what it's worth, I also had a non-picture-perfect password up until a few hours ago, when I caught up with this drama. I or any of (I guess) a number of other admins could just as well have been the victims of this attack. Since admin rights are conferred indefinitely under our current policy, subject to ArbCom removal only, there's no basis in policy in denying resysopping to hacked admin accounts once their identity has been confirmed to the bureaucrats' satisfaction. Sandstein 05:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
• Anyone having the nerve of bullying (YES, BULLYING) Tony the Marine and chastising him into not doing the fine job administrating WP he has done because of his reportedly poor choice of password is just as despicable as the hacker that stole his password in the first place. This is beyond pathetic. I knew bureaucracy in WP goes beyond anal retentiveness at times, but as Frank Zappa said once, this is the equivalent of curing dandruff by decapitating the patient. I'm extremely furious by this. Demf 13:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Notification idea...

Lets drop a note on all of the admin-action screens. (Ie, the delete/block/protection) about this latest rash of password hacking? I know I'm about to go add some complexity to my already long password. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 19:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I recall once setting up an account somewhere (If I could recall where I would pass it on), and they had a script that would test the strength of a password - giving you a red "weak" meaning you couldn't use it, a blue "medium" and green "strong". something like that might not be a bad idea, as it is true that not everyone even understands what a strong password is. Pastor David ^† 19:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Microsoft uses one for their websites, such as Hotmail. I don't know what the script is, I'll see if I can find one. Cascadia 20:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Microsoft's is here --Ed (Edgar181) 20:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure they claim copyright on the code, and possibly a software patent on the algorithm. ··coelacan 20:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure they do, it may not be good to try and include it in wikimedia software, but, if we can get admins to run their passwords through, they can get an idea and change as needed. I've also created an essay on Password Security at WP:PASSWORD or WP:FLY, including links to the password tester (thanks ed) and a Microsoft KB article on password security. Cascadia 20:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's a good example. A few moments' testing shows that it primarily tests on having 1 or more numbers, one or more letters, and one or more symbols. That triggered it to 'Best' so long as the password was about 14 characters or more. Anything else was Strong at best, not something I'm sure I agree with. -- nae'blis 20:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not supposed to point out the perfect password, just one that is hard to guess and hard to crack right away. It's up to the individual to use a combination that works for them but is strong in design. Cascadia 20:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, measuring strength on (a) length, (b) use of letters, symbols, & numbers, and (c) combination of capitalization seems pretty reasonable to me. I'm not sure what esle you would use to measure the strength of a password. (Thanks for finding it Ed). Pastordavid 20:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"Guessability". As per a very recent edit to Password strength, "Password123456" is not particularly strong. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Another site which seems rather interesting regarding pwd strength checking: http://rumkin.com/tools/password/passchk.php -- Avi 20:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Now I'm worried those password checkers are set up by hackers...cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 21:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

They claim to run only in the browser window. Do as they say and unplug your internet connection if you are paranoid. Don't forget to hide the keyboard from the people and nanobots looking over your shoulder, and pretend to type a few extra random characters in so no pattern can be spotted... FWIW, I typed in 'hello' and 'password' and was told those were weak passwords. Interestingly, they thought that 'aaaa...' (60+ times) was a "very strong" password. In some ways it is, though in some obvious ways it is not! Carcharoth 21:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a very strong password for internet usage (if the site accepts it, of course). Although it may seem trivial, the cracker would have to guess first the character you used, and second the amount of repetitions. At school I used to use ********. With only Pentiums Pro around, it was a pretty strong password ;) -- ReyBrujo 21:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That's not a strong password at all. Say there's 80 typeable characters and you allow the password to be up to 100 characters long. that's still only 8,000 different possible passwords to check for all repetition lengths of any individual character. That's extremely weak. By comparison, if your password is only 8 characters long but it is selected out of a sub-set of all 80 possible typeable characters, the number of passwords that would need to be check by exhaustive search is 80^8. That's 1,677,721,600,000,000 — over one quadrillion possible combinations. Now do you see why any one character repeated is a very weak password? --Cyde Weys 22:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, the reason I brought this up is to counter the recommendation to use a single repeated character. That's terrible advice. Nobody should do it. --Cyde Weys 22:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's more like 400k combinations for all lengths between 6 and 100, but yeah, orders of magnitude less secure than multiple characters. -- nae'blis 03:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Not cool, Carcharoth, you just cracked User:AAA!'s password. ··coelacan 21:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Please don't recommend the Microsoft password checker. It's unbelievably poor. "Password1" is not strong. --Tony Sidaway 22:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"Password123456" is BEST! —Centrx→talk • 22:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(not sure how much to indent) re: an online password checker; it would still be possible for a very malignant, clever program to log your keystrokes in the form even if you'd unplugged your internet connection, unless a) you had excellent protection software (a duh, but, duh, not everyone does), and/or b) cleared your internet files etc before plugging it back in. But on another note, you can check your password by just substituting something similar and fairly equivalent. Interestingly, I did this on the linked site with a series of progressively more difficult, random passwords, and they all got the same rating, although the more complex passwords did so with progressively shorter strings. Anchoress 02:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Which site, M$ or Rumkin? -- Avi 03:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Rumkin. Anchoress 03:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

And, on the same topic, A warning for AOL users. Anchoress 02:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Securing e-mails

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but e-mail passwords need to equally secure. Having a strong Wikipedia password won't help if your e-mail password is weak and a password reset can be done. Ideally, everyone should have their WP account associated with a non-public e-mail address so e-mails can't be cracked. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 22:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

There are many weaknesses which could be exploited. Wikipedia wasn't designed in a secure fashion, probably because no one imagined a day where there would be complex technical attacks against it. We don't even use any sort of encryption for authentication. In many cases, it would be a simple matter for an attacker to find the password of an admin regardless of the password strength. This also applies to many email servers, which we don't control, and saying that email passwords need to be secure isn't very helpful if the server the editor is using transmits in plaintext. --Philosophus ^T 00:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion...

Would it be possible to reset the create an account function to not accept any new accounts unless their passwords are over X characters long, to at least prevent new accounts from choosing weak passwords? I realize this doesn't help the current situation much--VectorPotential^Talk 22:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

See http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-May/029976.html. John Reaves (talk) 23:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, those are all good, but it seems like restricting the shortness of a password during account creation might still be a good idea, I mean it doesn't take many tries to crack a password that's only one character long (-:VectorPotential^Talk 23:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Something seems fishy here. We already have 3 or so admins blocked for having their accounts compromised. Might there be a group of hackers or something prying into accounts and doing these horrific things? bibliomaniac15 00:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Captchas

If you login incorrectly the first time, there are now captchas on the second try. This should help. --Aude (talk) 23:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Excellent! Thanks devs. the wub "?!" 23:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC) (briefly off Wikibreak to change my password!)

People using the "e-mail my password" on admin accounts

I just got a mail saying that IP 74.68.21.121 had requested a new password mailed to me. Of course the one requesting it won't get this new password, so it's no big deal, and it has happend me before several times. But I just thought I'd mention it this time here in case it's part of someone now going over all admin accounts requesting passwords to increase the chance of cracking them. As I understand, both that new passord and the one I use will now both work for some time forward, making a cracking attemt twice as likely to succeed. Looking at the password sendt to me, it's not a very strong one. Weaker than what I use here, but I'm sure it will hold up. Shanes 01:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I've applied a 3 hour block to the IP. It shows no history of contributions, so there shouldn't be any collateral damage. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 01:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Inactive admins

Does anyone else see this as a good argument for desysopping inactive admins after a certain period? At the risk of BEANS, if someone cracked one of those accounts they might do a lot in the shadows before it came to light; and because they're not active the owners of such accounts aren't noticing this and aren't changing weak passwords (as, I hope, active admins are doing now). Marskell 15:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Geoffrey Mitchell (talk · contribs)

Can someone do something about this guy? He's been repeatedly trolling me and Matthew ever since Sixty Six got blocked and it's just getting beyond a joke now. Will ^{(is it can be time for messages now plz?)} 19:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Diffs, please? ··coelacan 19:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[164] [165] [166] [167]

I don't see why they're needed except as a formality in this case - anyone can see based on his recent contributions. Will ^{(is it can be time for messages now plz?)} 19:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Because your expected to do the leg-work if you want someone banned. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 19:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If the trolling had been taking place at random points in the contributions, yes. If recent contribution after recent contribution is trolling, no real legwork should be done. Anyway, I have provided the diffs. Will ^{(is it can be time for messages now plz?)} 19:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, he's right. All 7 of his contributions over the past 1.5 months has been this annoying pestering about this issue. Though you could have made this clear, Will. The Evil Spartan 19:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I don't have insight into the background of this, but what exactly do you want admins to do? ··coelacan 20:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Taking a bit of time to look at this it appears there is some history here between a few editors. I've not completely sorted it out, but it appears there are several editors who don't work well together. It would probably be a good idea if all parties left each other alone.--Isotope23 20:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Legal threats

Resolved

 – User was blocked until legal threat rescinded.

For legal threats like this one do we block immediately, or allow one warning? Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 19:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked until they rescind the legal threats. Thanks for the notice. ··coelacan 19:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Please resolve the speedy on Deco lighting

Resolved

 – Article was deleted a couple of minutes after this was posted here. EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Article was created and tagged for speedy (spam), now creator seems to keep trying to delete it (blank the page) but the blanking keeps getting reverted. Could someone please speedily delete this speedy-delete candidate either as per its original db tag or per db-author (he seems to acknowlege the inappropriateness of the article)? DMacks 19:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Harassment

I have had recent friction with User:Alansohn, and feeling that the conversation was pointless, offtopic and increasingly uncivil, ceased it. He subsequently posted repeatedly on my talk page, trying to keep the conversation going. I requested that he cease to post on my talk page. He continued thereafter, and I reverted his comments and left it at that. Only moments later, he reverted the comments back with further haranguing. I left a warning on his talk page to cease and desist, and he once again kept it up on my talk page. As per policy, I attempted more than once to walk away, and he refuses to do the same. What measures can I take to keep this fellow from harassing me?  RGTraynor  20:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Harrassment? This is a pathetic joke. User:RGTraynor has been on a campaign to deny the validity of the Blue Ribbon Schools Program, the nation's highest award for K-12 schools. While I have provided all the necessary sources to consider -- or reject -- the validity of the award, RGTraynor has made repeated claims that the sources are false based on his supposition that it just can't be true. Repeatedly, RGTraynor has asserted that claims made that schools have received the award are false or manufactured, despite the fact that every article where I have indicated that the award has been received has had an appropriate source added. Despite repeated pleas to RGTraynor to verify the sources provided, he has persistently refused, harassing me directly and making additional and more egregious knowingly false claims in violation of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, as can be seen at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Timberview Middle School. In point of fact, RGTraynor raised the Blue Ribbon Award issue on this AfD, when it had never been mentioned in the article. His refusal to address his threats on this AfD led me to continue the discussion on his talk page, where it should have been discussed in the first place. In a rather patent abuse of the Wikipedia warning process, RGTraynor claimed that the followup was vandalism. RGTraynor has repeatedly been abusive, and has violated Wikipedia policies multiple times during this process. His harassment must be put to an end. Alansohn 22:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Request community action: Scndlbrkrttmc

See: Talk:Thing (especially history), User talk:Scndlbrkrttmc, and User talk:SnowFire.

User:Scndlbrkrttmc has been continuously posting a fairly long essay of his to Talk:Thing in what I believe to be in violation of the Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines (not to mention that Thing is a disambiguation page!). This would normally merit a shrug, but he's added links to Talk:Thing in other articles, leading me to suspect spam and possibly even external links to the page. I've reverted his additions and explained why due to the many policies that this essay breaks, as well as inviting him to seek review of my actions. He persists in re-adding it, however, and while he has threatened me with dismissal from Wikipedia (????), he has not actually sought out said other opinions himself yet. So, here we are. While he is likely acting in good faith, I believe that the quality of Scndlbrkrttmc's contributions speaks for itself.

I have several times politely requested to move his essay somewhere else on the Internet- in fact, it already is on a Geocities page which he links to in his essay. He hasn't taken the hint. He has made a very few edits on other topics, but they have generally been of... equal quality to his main obsession. I had hoped this wouldn't require administrator's intervention, but I don't see a reason to spend any more time on this. SnowFire 21:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm blanking it all and giving a final warning. More will result in blocking. ··coelacan 21:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Good. DES ^(talk) 21:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Bakakkaa

ResolvedHopefully. ··coelacan 22:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

• Bakakkaa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems to have a thorn in his ass concerning Oromo Liberation Front, even going so far as to make a legal threat (against a bot, but still...). Also, I think HABTEGIORGIS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and Oromiatimes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) may be socks (they were created within the day and seem to be fixated on the one article), but I can't prove it unconditionally. HalfShadow 22:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

  Blocked Bakakkaa for legal threats. If the other accounts are socks, they should be hit by the autoblocker. Semi-protected the article, to expire in 10 days. ··coelacan 22:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Account hijacking

I have come back from my wikibreak, after my original account AndyZ (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) was blocked. Someone told me about this today. This is my new account, and the password is secure enough to prevent a repeat of the horrific hijack.

Is it at all possible to allow me to have admin status on this account.

Thanks, guys for your work. --Speakmans Hour 22:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(ec)How do we know you are the same person? ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 22:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I am doubtful that this will be done at all, especially without proof that you are who you say you are. I know of many who are pretty upset with you have (and have lossed their trust in you) by that neglectful mistake. This would need more discussion and a proof of you being AndyZ first. Cbrown1023 talk 22:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Check User will not be possible. So, no matter what, even if you are who you claim to be, you're kinda screwed. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 22:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I was going to recommend checkuser, why not? ST47Talk 22:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Odds of this actually being AndyZ ... roughly 10%. Sorry, but we don't just hand out admin accounts to anyone claiming to be a former admin. --Cyde Weys 22:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

As it is, he'd left: why would he want it back now suddenly? Majorly (hot!) 22:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Cyde. This brings about the issue that there is no official system in place to identify admins. The current situation seems to dictate that there should be one. A discussion should be initiated on this. hombre de haha 22:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If AndyZ had enabled email then he would have been able to reset his password and post a notice on his talk page identifying his new account. Unfortunately, he didn't do so. -Will Beback · † · 22:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That wouldn't do. Surely the hijacker could have changed the email... WjBscribe 22:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point. -Will Beback · † · 22:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Arr, how so? Biometric identification? Phone number storage? I suppose e-mail authentication would work, but then you have the possibility that someone has the same password there. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 22:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

How does one identify who you say you are "in real life". Generally through the use of Identification numbers that correlate to that person's account. Whatever the IT synonym to that is should be thought about. Or just make admins install really awesome thumbscanners on their computer before they log in :D

Of course, if these people and others that are put in the same situation are expendable, and should be punished for their carelessness, then we should just act like we don't need a way to identify admins. "Adminship is no big deal." hombre de haha 23:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

roffle, this reminds me of the time that someone registered the account Rick Kerrigan or something, claiming to be RickK, and asked for his sysop bit back. It didn't fly because users pointed out that RickK never gave up his sysop powers. Ah, here we go: From ANI on BJAODN. hbdragon88 22:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"AGF is not a suicide pact. --Deathphoenix ʕ 15:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)" That is applicable in so many ways to so many things. Nice link. Teke 00:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Strange. It seems that someone removed it, because I Googled the exact term and I didn't see it in an ANI archive. Fortunately it still lives on in BJADON. hbdragon88 00:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This problem makes for a good argument that we need more Wikimeetups. Meet each other in real life, get to know each other, trade phone numbers -- or at least email addresses. I happen to know (I'm guessing) several dozen Wikipedians well enough (unfortunately, none of those who had acompromised account) that if one had their account compromised, I'd be able to vouch that they are who they claim to be -- & hopefully vice versa. -- llywrch 23:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention keysignings -- Avi 23:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make more sense for hiim to log onto the AndyZ account to apologize and request an unblock? That's what I'd do, if my account were hijacked. And then I'd change my password. Instead of "password," I'd make it "drowssap." -FisherQueen (Talk) 00:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Mark, as a secruity measure, logged into the compromised account and changed both the password and the email.[168] Zzyzx11 (Talk) 00:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that AZPR (talk · contribs) appears to be a long time semi-bot account operated by AndyZ, and AZPR is now requesting that AndyZ be unblocked. That would convince me, unless the password to User:AZPR was also "password". User:Mark knows what AndyZ's original e-mail was before he blanked it, so I guess Mark will ultimately know whether or not to unblock. Thatcher131 00:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately (as I noted on my talk page), my password was password too. (The idea behind my login was that I could show that I am aware of my activities before I took my wikibreak) I did e-mail Mark though, so hopefully he can clear up the entire situation. Oh and btw, I just happened to notice the post that started this thread - that is NOT me. APR _t 01:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's really bad that we have 2 users claiming to be AndyZ, does anyone know AndyZ by email so we could get clarification of which account is his? Ryan Postlethwaite 01:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked User:Speakmans Hour as an imposter account, there were only 2 edits, it seams clear they were only after the admin bit. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

(Its fairly obvious that the aforementioned user is making false claims, his contribution list is 2 edits Edit conflict: thanks Ryan) I have e-mailed Mark. I would e-mail someone else who e-mailed me before, but that leaves User:Bobblewik (emailed regarding his date/unit fixing scripts as an inclusion in the PR one) who has left and a bunch of trolls (like User:Titanicprincess, User:Rptng03509345) who send e-mails around regarding some evil admins. APR _t 01:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, this is where other people need to weigh in, Andy - I didn't know you before (sorry), but you've got to understand the trust that has been lost with your account being compromised - it's not we don't trust the original user, it's the fact that we don't know who is actually attempting to use the account now, or want's to be known as the user formally known as andyZ, I haven't got any suggestions. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, at least you had a second account known to be yours. That would be a good countermeasure for hijacking, although I would prefer keysigning. -- ReyBrujo 01:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I would have to agree completely with Ryan, but also we're discussing reinstating a user (hopefully not also resysoping) that used the word "password" as their, well, password. ^{Review Me}CASCADIA^Howl/_Trail 01:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

So? People screw up royally, and you're talking about having "password" as a password as if it were a crime. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 02:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:BOT policy saved me here :). APR _t 01:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I realize that, and I would go thru the same exact steps as you have if I were dealing with someone who returns right after his account was hacked for vandalizing the main page. I don't mind at all the suspicion; I probably would be suspicious myself if this had happened to someone else. Thanks a lot for your understanding, APR _t 01:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Suspicion? Lets see if I can overdo it. Isn’t it ironic that AZPR is a quite famous piece of password recovery software from ElcomSoft? --Van helsing 09:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

User verification

One problem is to get some verification of a person's identity, such as for restoring control of a username. What permissions should be given that user is a different problem. For users whose identity is unknown, there may be some information which could be used for verification within their Wikipedia contributions. For example, if they've used some obscure books for sources and they still have those books they can at least verify that they are a person who does have those books. They can quickly look up any desired section of a book, and others can verify the information (even if it takes others a while to get a copy of the book, the quick reply to a challenge helps verify access to the source). (SEWilco 05:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC))

Death Threat

Per here, 64.5.146.13, has made a death threat against user RHaworth. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 22:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh no. He's gonna TYPE MEAN THINGS AT HIM JUST LIKE THIS!. The horror... HalfShadow 22:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment That was in July of 2006, and the IP has since been blocked--VectorPotential^Talk 22:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry... I didn't realize that. No. He was blocked for 31 hours once, per here. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 22:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and that block is still active--VectorPotential^Talk 23:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh... sorry. But that's not really the point. The point is that he made a death threat. He was blocked for vandalism. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 23:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Should we just close this, considering it was made in 2006? Cool Blue^{talk to me} 23:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

correct. Thats a block. An indef is a ban, and are never, ever taken out on IP addresses, nor should they be. -M^ask? 23:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Er, well, not quite. A block set for an indefinite length simply doesn't have an expiration. There are times in which that setting is used while disputes are being resolved, because we don't know when the resolution will come. That's just one example. But yes, pro forma we don't indefinitely block IPs that are not open proxies in the since that the block is set and will never be revisited and such is "banned". Just for clarity for the casual passerby. Teke 00:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Not sure how relevant this is, but the IP (according to WHOIS) is registered to WHRO-TV. As the article says nothing about being an ISP, its either someone there or its being exploited as an open proxy. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 23:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Probably wouldn't hurt to run it by Wikipedia:WikiProject on open proxies and have them do a proxy check. In either case, I think it's safe to say that it's probably not the same person who was editing in July--VectorPotential^Talk 23:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

User talk:BuickCenturyDriver

Could someone take a look at the above page for BCD's responses, I'm really inclined to assume good faith with this one and unblock, I haven't got enough bandwidth tonight to get into a discussion with BCD about this, so I would appreciate others taking a look. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. Unless a mistake was made during the checkuser, I see no reason to unblock the user. The series of events – cracker deletes Main Page, BCD creates Main Page; both have same IP address – cannot be explained away easily. Highly improbable that the two users are different. At this point four admins, including you, have declined his unblock request. -- tariqabjotu 23:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If blocks are not punitive, what is being prevented from blocking the account? hombre de haha 23:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That's what's hitting me hard - the CU evidence, but there's no evidence to suggest that BCD compromised the account, see my response on his talk page for what I believe happened. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That's what I noted may be a possibility as well (up in the first AndyZ thread). It makes sense. If it did happen I really don't think it's in his favour though, and he hasn't so much as fessed up to it. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 23:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If he did, it may be something we could forgive but with a severe warning as to future conduct, I'm thinking that ArbCom may be the best people to rule on this one, as they would say - this is out of our remit. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

If he admits to hijacking AndyZ's account, who is going to forgive him? I know I'm wouldn't, and don't see any reason why anyone should. John Reaves (talk) 23:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Eh, if he gets unblocked he'll definitely never make admin, so I don't think we need to worry about anything. John Reaves (talk) 00:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

To my knowledge he did not admit anything, but checkuser evidence suggests that he blocked an administrator with AndyZ's account. If this account were unblocked right now, what would happen? If he goes on a vandalism spree, he gets blocked again. BCD's account doesn't have admin tools, does it?hombre de haha 00:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

No. Logs are our friends. Anywho, the point of the block being preventative rather than punitive is the point El hombre de haha is raising, at it does have merit in policy as I read it. Ostracism in the form of our community noticeboard is a different story. Should all these puzzle pieces fit, certainly the user is voted off the island. Teke 00:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Err, in re-reading I should add that the things about the CN was sarcasm. I like the concept. Teke 00:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

If he did do it (don't make me think of OJ Simpson please), we can still take this seasoned piece of wisdom from meatball wiki. More generally, is this user's indefinite block going to benefit Wikipedia overall, especially our content? Gracenotes^T § 00:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Ryan's postulated assessment, see the user talk page. It is my opinion that BCD got curious, saw the password, toyed for a moment, and got off figuring it'd blend in with the other misuses. He got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. A very bad decision, by the definition of those four words. We'll see what happens. Teke 00:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that BCD apparently said on IRC that he wasn't using wireless, but claimed on his talk page that he was. As I suggested above, the most charitable explanation is that he saw AndyZ's password exposed in the deletion log and decided to play a prank. If he admits to this, should he be unblocked? Probably. Could he still be the vandal behind the whole spree? Possibly, but as all the other edits were by open proxy, impossible to determine with certainty. If he continues to claim total ignorance as to how Ryluong got blocked from his IP? No slack. Thatcher131 00:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 00:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree, if he admits it, possible a different story. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Fourthed. A great mark of maturity is willingness to admit mistakes and accept consequences. David Gerard just fucked up badly, right? Curiosity doesn't have to kill the cat. Teke 01:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Not that I doubt the evidence or anything, but what happens if the entire event was just some crazy coincidence/problem by the MediaWiki software or something? I understand that there is sufficient evidence linking BCD with the block, but if he hadn't done it and evidence later miraciously surfaces that he wasn't behind it, we aren't quite giving him a chance right now (we're essentially disregarding all comments except a forced apology - like Salem Witch Trials or something?) ... APR _t 01:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think BCD has to admit to anything he didn't do. He is saying he didn't do it. He's shown he has a dynamic IP, so theoretically he could be editing under a new account already, I assume. Why block the account, other than for the reason of punishing the person that is assumed guilty? On charitable explanations, I think the most charitable would be a MediaWiki bug. ehdh 01:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this all day, BCD edits the main page (that has just been deleted by AndyZ), then all of a sudden, Ryulong is blocked by AndyZ using BCD's IP - that seams clear enough to me that BCD was involved, he found out AndyZ's password from the main page deletion summary and thought he'd see what an admin account was like - and blocked Ryulong to see how you block someone, no way it's a 1-in-a-million freak dynamic IP switch. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

With a dynamic IP, you don't make a hundred edits from x.x.x.15, then it switches to somone else who vandalizes, then back to you for more constructive editing. Thatcher131 02:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Exactly so, even as I know with my limited experience with IPs and how they work. Certainly the most charitable thing is to assume good faith, but that only goes to a point. Innocent until proven guilty, but the evidence is clear that this singular event happened a minute after the main page incident, from BCD's IP, and all the rest was through open proxies and there are no other quirks to the pattern. So that really is not a questioning of good faith anymore since 2+2=4 here with much experience talking from the other editors. Teke 03:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Personally, an indef block is too much. Block him for a year if you want, but banishment for a single disruption sounds too much, especially considering his (apparently, haven't checked it all) clear background. He may never be trusted with admin tools, but kicking him out of Wikipedia, personally, is out of question. -- ReyBrujo 03:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

A year? Isn't that a bit punitive? I'm trying to think of the greatest amount of time such that the block is still preventative, but I'm narrowing it down to zero hours. This is a one-time thing, I certainly hope, whatever it is. Gracenotes^T § 05:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:UAA

Resolved

 – As of 23:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC), the page no longer has reports.

Could someone please check WP:UAA? Some reports are over 3 hours long. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 23:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Still one report there that I'm not sure what to do with. ··coelacan 23:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, backlogs at WP:UAA aren't exactly urgent, most of the names listed there don't/won't ever have any edits, so there's no real rush to block them--VectorPotential^Talk 23:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Commonsusage100 / User:JoanneB upload oddness

Commonsusage100 (talk · contribs · count) claims to be some sort of bot, created by admin User:JoanneB to upload a bunch of images, which so far all appear to be scantily clad but non- images of women in/around bars. This is just a bit odd... JoanneB has not responded yet on her talk page. Is she on IRC or other contact methods? Georgewilliamherbert 23:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That user was blocked. I think there is some process thingy to go through if that were to be true. Besides, the way things happened, it just doesn't fit like regular bots. It was probably just an impersonator. --24.136.230.38 23:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The name didn't end with BOT, and User:JoanneB is an administrator, so I trust that she knows her stuff. Anyways, it just doesn't add up (should have been created by Joanne herself, bots don't upload pictures, wasn't approved or given trial, tag was placed by bot, etc). --24.136.230.38 23:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Kronecker

This user keeps on being disruptive and offensive. See: [169] or [170] --Tresckow 23:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

When is he gonna learn that calling someone an idiot is a personal attack? --24.136.230.38 23:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

User:PCE

PCE (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been an issue with professional wrestling related articles since he first appeared last year, just looking at his talk page should give an idea of how mny people have attempted to stop him as well as a block for disruption. This users only edits, apart from sporadic vandalism, is to make up false information (namely names) for wrestling moves and then add them to articles. He has received countless warnings (at least six test4's), never uses an edit summary and is impossible to deal with because he never responds to any person trying to communicate with him. –– Lid^(Talk) 00:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Culture of Australia

Can we get an administrator to use their rollback feature to revert 13 edits at Culture of Australia, by 64.119.64.211. The user is being warned. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 00:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Done, but I just reverted back to an earlier version which anyone can do, rollback wouldnt even work as there were later edits. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)::

Alright, and thanks. I didn't realize how the administrator rollback function works, since I'm not an administrator. The only edits after the 13 edits were more vandalism, however. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 00:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

You can always just pick the version you want from the page history and revert (see help:reverting). ··coelacan 02:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Rollback only appears for the very last revision of an article. Undo works nicely for everyone after that. Teke 04:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

User SanchTachi refuses to stop adding irrelevant material

Resolved

 – tentatively resolved, 24hr block for Lode Runner, warning for Sanchi Tachi ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 05:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This is regarding an ongoing debate at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#Original_research_in_talk_pages. User SanchiTachi replies to nearly every single post that is pro-change and lectures them about how he believes their posts violate Wikipedia policy. His explanations do not make sense, and as of yet there is no one who publically agrees with his analyses. He has just recently taken to blockquoting entire (irrelevant) sections of the rules--a LARGE paragraph--instead of merely a link. I have repeatedly deleted this inclusion as off-topic spam.

Remember, this is NOT regarding the issue being debated--it is regarding SanchiTachi's (and only SanchiTachi's) belief that every single person's arguments are not only wrong, but *against the rules.* I do not believe that his own crazy interpretation of the rules gives him the right to spam and ruin conversations (and this is not the first time he's done this, either.)

Yes, I am personally involved. Yes, I do think that, objectively speaking, SanchiTachi is doing nothing but harm at this point. --Lode Runner 01:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that I'm not requesting a ban per se, but perhaps instruction from an admin (or his fellow editors) that his off-topic attacks are not constructive and will not be tolerated. --Lode Runner 01:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Outside perspective: Having reverted the removal once and run through the history of this discussion, this would seem to be nothing more than a dispute between two users. It's certainly not in the same vein as off-topic spam, and is more of a vague personal attack than anything. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Also note that in his attempt to remove the context of SanchiTachi's statements, Lode Runner has broken 3RR: [171] [172] [173] [174]. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It's illustrative of behavior in different places, usually based on claims of what is valid and what is not as a source (obviously, whatever Sanchi doesn't agree with is invalid). See Wikipedia: WikiProject Warhammer 40,000 and Talk:Warhammer 40,000 for examples. I'd say this was POINT, but I'm not sure what the point is. Could someone look into this? MSJapan 02:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I dispute that you are an "outside perspective." You reverted my edits too, and are the only one other than Sanchi to do so. (In fact, you weren't participating in the discussion at all, leading me to suspect that you are either a socket puppet or a friend of Sanchi.) And technically, I did not break 3RR (because there was stuff added in-between)--Sanchi did. This is quibbling, however--I have voluntarily chosen to stop the edit war, and I appologize for whatever inconvience by *minor* alleged breakage of the 3RR rule (i.e. ONE extra revert) caused. I am concerned for the future of the conversation, not assigning blame for what's happened in the past. Sanchi's personal attacks (or spam, or whatever you call it) must stop in the name of constructiveness. --Lode Runner 04:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I reverted you because you were removing the entire context of his statement, including his signature, leaving only a single link to a policy page. This is in every way unacceptable behavior, disregarding whatever reason you had for reverting it. Second, you did break 3RR, because you reverted the page four times in a row. The 3RR rule does not make exceptions for altered text, which in your case is just noting your blanking. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Therefore, you are party to the situation (having already made your judgment and acted on it) and not an outside perspective. Thank you, I was just clarifying that.

Fine, even though I disagree, I confess to it! I'm guilty of a *single* extra edit! I'll do whatever penance is required of me!

It happened *once*. It is already fixed. I won't do it again (for the sake of not providing quibblers ammunition, if nothing else.) I am not being accused of being a repeat offender here. Sanchi is. --Lode Runner 04:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason to continue this, since you are intent on character destruction and clearly unwilling to admit fault beyond the obvious. I will only explain to you why your point of view is quite frankly, stupid. See WP:TALK#Behavior that is unacceptable. Specifically, read this line: "Never edit someone's words to change their meaning.", which is what you did. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This is not truthful. 1. I editted a blockquote down to a link instead. First off, they weren't HIS words (it was a quote), second, I left in the link so the meaning wasn't changed. 2. I just admitted fault. I'm sorry for whatever infraction you think I committed, real or imagined. It might have sounded sarcastic, but it was genuine. My exasperation was only to point out what a quibbling little point it is. YES, OK, I REVERTED A FOURTH TIME. Didn't quite realize/am sorry for/won't happen again. Etcd. It doesn't require a more sincere appology then that, because it is such a completely trivial quibble.

This is not about fault admitting (even though I have already done so.) I am endevoring to have a constructive debate on the NOR policy, and Sanchi has *repeatedly* interfered. I have every reason to believe that this interference will continue. Will you comment on this aspect, or will you be like Sanchi and continue to bring up my past sins (which always one-time in nature, as I *do* learn from my mistakes) ? --Lode Runner 04:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is truthful. Sanchi bolded the point he intended to get across, which you removed. I reverted you because of this, not out of taking sides. As for the both of you, I think you've both devolved to a pretty uncivil exchange. Your view is not constructive, because you seek to redefine policies which you will never succeed in fundamentally altering. You doing so anyway spite of consensus doesn't help matters. Sanchi mentioning this at every opportunity isn't helpful either, and you'd both do well to simply step away from the issue. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, right there you show your own bias. You do not know that this clarifiction (and yes, in the context of WP:NOR it is JUST a clarification! It only contradicts WP:TALK, and WP:TALK is not "non-negotiable") is impossible. I say that if the consensus wants it, the change should be made and the higher ups can veto at their leisure. Neither you nor Sanchi (if there is a difference) are allowed to dictate what is and is not inalterable.

As far as the uncivil exchange goes, yes I should endevor not to let him get under my skin. In tone, I could have been better. For that, I am genuinely sorry. In content, I stand by what I have written.--Lode Runner 04:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

To put it another way, there is no consensus that consensus isn't enough to clarify WP:NOR in the manner I've described. Yet you have used this point anyway to call me "not constructive." --Lode Runner 05:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

What you call a "clarification" is quite obviously not accepted as such. As for your assertion that my comment somehow shows bias, you need to learn the meaning of the term. Lack of knowledge is not bias, it's ignorance, and I've read your change to the policy. It is not a clarification. Not even close. Consensus, which you will never attain anyway, is not enough to allow your change, which you have been told. On the other note, I hope you mean that, because your current tact isn't all that productive. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It has been accepted as such by at least two other people than myself. --Lode Runner 05:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

And denied by just as many, some of whom also hold more weight in such matters. Simply put, even if you succeeded in gaining acceptable consensus (50/50 isn't), they still have core policies to fall back on, which consensus cannot defeat. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

To add to that, your behavior is no more constructive than his. Especially so is your refusal to continue any discussion on the grounds that he is not blocked. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I refuse to continue because he is drowning out the rational voices, just like he did on the WP:NOR talk page.--Lode Runner 04:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I am also refusing to continue because he inevitably hijacks the conversation in an off-topic manner (such as the stylistic problems he has with my posts, the "credibility" I've lost, etc.) --Lode Runner 04:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

See also Sanchi's behavior on the WP:NOR talk page. I admit my behavior wasn't perfect either, but I wasn't aware of the policies regarding things like additions to the NOR page being discussed here instead of the talk page (nor was I aware, when I made the addition, that there was any contradiction at all. I later found out that it contradicted WP:TALK.) On that talk page, Sanchi would not let go of the fact that I had violated a policy (nevermind that fixing it took 2 seconds, I said I was sorry, and said I wouldn't do it again) and was declaring my entire proposal invalid because of it. I created this page, and warned Sanchi that I would not tolerate any more off-topic attacks here, yet he did it anyway. --Lode Runner 04:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

remedy

I was not aware of this incident until just now, but Lode Runner is not a stranger to disruption: he's in the past several days significantly attempted to modify WP:NOR without consensus, edited other people's comments on article talk pages, and now reverts other people's contributions on article talk as "invalid". For full disclosure: I am against Lode Runner's policies, and I have previously called him out on his editing methods, both on the user talk, and on the article talk in question. On his user talk, he told me that he would "not allow me" to contribute to the discussion. I told him that I would not take any actions based on my status as a member of the discussion.

However, this is a clearcut case of disruption after prior warning (which by his own admission he has seen): therefore, I will be blocking Lode Runner for 24 hours to prevent further disruption to the village pump. I invite block review from other admins, and while I stand by my actions, I have no objection whatsoever should any other admin decide they wish to overturn them.

Also, Sanchi Tachi should get a strong warning that he needs to be more civil in his debates over policy and assume good faith; he should also consider using AN/I as a noticeboard for reporting policy violations, as opposed to individual admin's talk pages. I'd advise Sanchi Tachi to take a break from getting involved with both policy pages, and with Warhammer 40K articles for a little while. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 05:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

User:ElBuentada

ElBuentada (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an obvious User:Danny Daniel (A banned user.) sockpuppet. See contributions for evidence and User:Squirepants101/Danny Daniel for information about this vandal's sockpuppets. Pants^(T) 02:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The user recreated Coca-Town, an article created by a indefinitely blocked Danny Daniel sockpuppet. Pants^(T) 02:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Children of Curpsbot

Curps (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (now retired) created a multi-function adminbot starting circa September 2005. The most well known function of this bot was to watch for pagemove style vandalism and counter it by issuing rapid blocks. In doing so, Curps countered a major problem Wikipedia was having at that time, and this use of his bot was widely endorsed and openly celebrated. However, Curps's bot did not stop there and he also added functions to counter vandalism with reversions and blocks and to block newly registered accounts with questionable names like Mr.AssShitHead. These later functions, which Curps never publicly explained in detail, were more controversial. In particular, many criticized him for using the vague statement "user..." in issuing username blocks and not clearly identifying which actions were being done by a robot versus which actions were being performed manually. Even back then, engaging in these sorts of actions with little discussion or approval was not really in keeping with the spirit of the bot policy. Curps retired in July 2006.

However, unknown to everyone (as far as I can tell), is that two other admins had secretly started running Curpsbot derivatives before Curps's retirement. On the plus side, this meant that page move vandalism was still protected against. On the negative side, these bots continued issuing username blocks and engaging in other activities (like vandalism reversion) without being identified as bots, or being acknowledged/discussed by the community. I only realized what was going on after reviewing Wikipedia log data. In each case the bot has been modified and evolved from the original Curpsbot design. For example, in one case the annoying "user..." summary was eliminated, and in another case the operator apparently scaled back the level of antivandal activities. However, I consider the log evidence incontrovertible that two admins have run Curpsbot derived adminbots for large stretches of more than a year.

That is until recently. One of these two admins has recently announced his retirement. The other has apparently disabled most (all?) of the adminbot's functions during the last few months (possibly deliberately, possibly because Mediawiki changes caused those functions to stop working, and possibly because I told him I was going to start this discussion). Given that the bots are now largely inactive, I am going to refrain (for now) from revealing the two admins in question. Rather than trying to lynch the specific operators of these bots, I'd rather have a discussion about adminbots in general and Curpsbot functionality in particular (there are plenty of examples from Curps' logs). Are these acceptable activities for bots to run, and if so how should they be discussed and approved? What should happen to adminbots run in secret (p.s. these two are not the only bots in the logs)? If we are going to give more than lip service to the notion that bots need to be approved, we would need to both send a clear signal that secret bots are not okay, and provide a viable forum for handling these issue. (I think the amount of hassle and unnecessary overhead created by past adminbot debates largely encourages such activities to be run in secret.) Dragons flight 02:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand is the most recent discusion that had some discussion on the use of semi-automated tools that users with administrators powers used. hbdragon88 03:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The community seems unwilling to discuss the idea of an admin bot without resorting to hysteria, so it is possible that these admins had to ignore the rules to improve Wikipedia. I cannot be sure without looking at the log evidence itself. Is there any particular action that seemed incorrect? ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 03:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

There are a few examples of things I would consider mistakes. Things analogous to blocking "ThePenIsMighter" because the bot saw "penis", come to mind, but the problems I saw were quite rare (probably less than 1% of actions). Also, it is worth noting that if adminbots can run from many months without drawing attention to themselves, then they clearly aren't doing much harm. If I thought they were harmful, I would have blocked them already and the above would have been a much different post. Dragons flight 03:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• I don't like the idea of adminbots, and I like the idea of secret adminbots even less. If these were autonomously blocking people, we need to come down on it hard, to prevent a recurrence in the future. The operators should both lose whatever bot flags they have, and also their seats on the BAG (if they have them), at a minimum. As for the other stuff, it's hard to discuss acceptable degrees of functionality without knowing exactly which tasks the modified bots were performing. Can you provide a list? -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 03:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

My feeling is that (pending community consensus otherwise) admins should not be using fully automated bots. I have no problem with admins using scripts and semi-bots to expedite deletions and so forth as long as each action requires a final manual confirmation, and with the understanding that if the admins screws up by confirming things he shouldn't have (using bad judgement in other words) he can't blame it on bad bot code or something, but has to take full responsibility. Thatcher131 03:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is the problem though, if we outright bad the legitimate uses of adminbots (there are a few places they could help), then people are going to feel strongly enough and run them "underground". The only way to stop illegal adminbots, is to legalize some, and provide restrictions. It should increase quality, since the code will be reviewed. It reminds me of Prohibition, where people would drink alcohol regardless of legality, and the lack of standards in the illegal distilleries made for toxic concoctions. Prodego ^talk 03:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

That analogy's not great, since people here feel more strongly (and uniformly) against adminbots than the average US citizen did against booze. Given that this is the case, we also have an option that wasn't open to the US Gov't regarding alcohol sales: extremely draconian penalties for violators. If it were public knowledge that anyone running an unauthorized adminbot would be desysopped (if appropriate), permanently lose the approval to run bots of any sort, and pick up a lengthy block (i.e. several months at a minimum), I doubt we'd have much problem. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 04:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

And that would be a very ridiculous response to actions that were A) intended to improve the encyclopedia and B) did improve the encyclopedia. Whatever else I may believe, I certainly wouldn't stomach giving out months long blocks unless someone's actions were actually shown to be harmful. Dragons flight 04:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

You don't think that ignoring policy and running an unauthorized bot would do harm to the encyclopedia, or that people can inadvertently cause problems while intending to improve the encyclopedia? For example, if there's an admin running an unauthorized bot that blocks bad usernames, and the bot gets a screw loose and blocks a big run of reasonable names for valid contributors, how would that not damage the project? It'd damage our credibility, it'd bite newbies, it'd drive away good contributors... the list goes on and on. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 13:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Blocking an editor for months because their bot might have problems and go on a rampage is a lot different than blocking someone because they did go on a rampage. Dragons flight 14:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

You'd be blocking them for a month for betraying the community's trust and doing an end-run around the processes designed to regulate a very controversial area of the site. In that sense, blocking for what the bot might do is much better than blocking for what the bot did, since it's preventative rather than punitive (insofar as someone who got caught with an unauthorized, malfunctioning adminbot is extremely unlikely to have any positions of authority to abuse in the future). -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The bottom line, as far as I'm concerned, is that process and transparency matter. If an admin wants to improve the encyclopedia, he has lots of ways to do so that don't involve breaking the rules and violating the community's trust. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 13:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This strikes me as being in no way an AN/I issue, and should be brought to a wider audience if possible. A number of compromise suggestions have been proposed in previous "adminbot" requests, such as strictly limiting the number of sysop tools the bot had, and providing some sort of throttle/panic button for admins in case the bot goes rogue. Overall, though, I have to wonder (emotionally, not logically) if the recent wave of compromised administrative accounts will make people less likely to support adminbots in the future. There's a wide latitude of valid opinions between "I for one welcome our new robot overlords" and Skynet-related hysteria, and dismissing it all or arrogating decision to a subset of users seems counter to Wikipedia tradition. I in no way endorse the use of unauthorized adminbots though; if we need more admins to provide these 'automatic' functions, we should be trying to promote them, until such time as the Turing test is met. -- nae'blis 03:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It's an incident regarding admin privileges. For the record, as well, I prefer to edit-summary my username blocks as User... in a tribute to curpsbot. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 05:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• pops head out of locked room labeled 'work'* Many of you likely do not know me, some of you may... my feeling on the whole issue regarding this is that there are some functions which are legit. Auto-unprotecting and protecting pages, or performing page moves for certain reasons. I do have a suggestion on the whole matter of an adminbot: Since the majority of the functions require an administrator flag, any adminbot must publish its source code so that users who have an understanding of the code can interject when they see a potential problem with the code, as like any other OpenSource software. Anyway, that's my two bits on the issue. --AllyUnion (talk) 06:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• This situation isn't nearly as bad as some people think. There was an RFA nom for an admin bot about a month ago that would have passed if it were not withdrawn just before the ending date. There was some hysterics, but not much, and overall the community accepted the idea. The main quibble is that people wanted the bot to be open source. >Radiant< 10:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• ProtectionBot was needed to solve a major problem at the time and its task was relatively uncontroversial. I don't think we can expect to enjoy the same level of support for an evil fair use-deleting bot, or rampaging proxy-blocking bot. – Steel 12:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Try it. Do not a priori assume that the community will reject it. Do not base that assumption on incorrect evidence. Try it. >Radiant< 13:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I maintain that adminbots are The Way Forward and the quicker we get rid of this ridiculous, irrational skynet-type hysteria the better. If admins have to run bots in secret until then, so be it. Philosophical objections along the lines of "I just don't like adminbots" are equally unhelpful. – Steel 12:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Certified.Gangsta

[175] [176] [177]

I'm just curious as to whether the ArbCom decision for one revert per week per article applies here or not. Nowhere in the decision does it say it is limited to mainspace. --Ideogram 02:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

John Paulus and User:JohnPaulus

JohnPaulus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) claims to be the subject of the article John Paulus. He is continually deleting content from the article and appears to me to have broken 3RR some time ago. He claims the article is "borderline libellous". I have checked the article and some of the sources appear rather weak to me (bloggish, for lack of a better term). I'm thus hesitant to block because of the possibility of this being a BLP situation. The user has also implied a legal threat: [178]. I have warned the user. The user seems to want this bio deleted completely [179]. I'm bringing this up for attention from others both as to whether this article is a potential BLP vio and as to what, if anything, we should do about the editor. Would rather we don't have another Daniel Brandt on our hands, needless to say. Heimstern Läufer 03:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest an indef block due WP:NLT until he retracts, then another indef block until we can confirm his true identity (contacting the Foundation could work), and remove all the content that is not referenced from the article. -- ReyBrujo 03:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

AFAIR, we don't automatically block when someone claims to be the subject of an article, whether they're using their real name on Wikipedia or not. Let's not bite the newbies more than we have to, hmm? Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 05:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• First order of business should be to request that he contact the Foundation through official channels, in order to confirm his identity. As for the article itself, I agree that some of the sourcing here looks questionable. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 03:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I am more inclined to delete the article, or at least want it deleted. It is about a guy who stalked a star. We have plenty of people stalking stars daily, yet we do not have articles on them. The AFD is a way to go, and if Mr. Paulus sends an email to OTRS, I have access to the system and see what happens from there. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 03:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

FYI: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Paulus (2nd nomination) -Will Beback · † · 03:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, the subject, John Paulus, identified himself as the editor, JohnPaulus, on his blog, The Naked Truth. -Will Beback · † · 06:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Totally off topic

The joys of wikipedia - I just became aware of a stabbing in my university library by way of the wikipedia article on my university. Considering I am on campus at the moment, less than 100 meters from the library I find this quite amusing. (No prize for guessing which university I attend) Viridae^Talk 03:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I was guessing, and it turns out that at least three universities have had stabbings in the past 24 hours. Anchoress 03:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well then - you want La Trobe University, in Melbourne, Australia. The stabbing happened some 2 hours before i posted that. Viridae^Talk 04:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh and I found it out here, before the all students email got to me. How very efficient. Viridae^Talk 04:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I've gotten more news from Wikipedia itself than I ever would have guessed. Very odd side benefit to the encyclopedia. :) EVula // talk // ☯ // 04:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism from ESPN?!

I just reverted a clear case of vandalism from IP 192.234.2.80. Checking on the whois, it looks like it's coming from ESPN HQ in Bristol, CT. Can someone verify this or am I going nuts?--Ispy1981 03:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

No, you're not nuts. WHOIS says that the address is registered to ESPN. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 03:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Probably some mail room summer intern with a computer. If you're feeling ambitious, contact their abuse address. --Auto^{(talk / contribs)} 03:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll do that. Thanks--Ispy1981 14:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Mr strike my leg stop i dont like fly (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This is new to me. User creates account to hand out barnstars with no previous contact with the recipients.[180] Also has been warned for other vandalistic edits. [181] User:ZeroTheLoser seems to be the focus of User:Mr strike my leg stop i dont like fly's obvious vandalism. Timeline of events:

(13:24, 7 May 2007) New user account created.

(13:27, 7 May 2007) Within first 3 minutes of account creation 4 unabashed acts of vandalism.

(20:36, 7 May 2007) Three hours go by (must of been nap time) and the unusual handing out of barnstars begin.

(21:34, 7 May 2007) Tops off the barnstar handing out by awarding the user page they vandalized first with a barnstar.

Strange. --Knowpedia 03:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Also note that the signature displays his name as "Can't we hate our allies and love our enemies". Definitely someone who knows his way around WP. --Masamage ♫ 04:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I got one, and was very leary. I thought it was a joke, or a poke. I need a lot of info to take things for granted. LOL. I do think it's mean though, for those who believe this is legit for Wikipedia. - Jeeny ^Talk 04:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was was very odd as well... at first I thought it was legit, then I looked at his edit history... and he's handing out the same exact one to many other people. ^{Review Me}CASCADIA^Howl/_Trail 04:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It was weird, I guess. The random awarding is maybe a form of vandalism, but since it's all on talk pages anyway I would say it's pretty harmless. - Rainwarrior 04:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar flooding is an uncommon form of vandalism, but I've seen it before. Usually it's ten or twenty barnstars per person, instead of just one. It's still a vandal-only account imo. Anybody object to an indef block? ··coelacan 04:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings about a indef block. I do think it's semi-harmless, to a degree though. It is a hoax, in a way, so in that respect, not cool at all. Perhaps blocking the user name, and not an IP, since it just seems to be on user talk pages? Lets keep this open for a while, so others have time to comment. Some may be in bed, at work, out, etc. JMHO. Thanks. - Jeeny ^Talk 04:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd say give the guy a fair warning, first, that the semi-random barnstarring is kind of weird and that he should stop. Don't ban him unless he fails to comply. --Masamage ♫ 04:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I also just noticed user has edit summary for all 31 edits, this is not common for a new user but most established user will not press "save page" without the edit summary. Noted the edit summary for my barnstar is different from the rest... weird!--Knowpedia 05:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

If this person's not going to use the account for anything but awarding, then it's pointless to let him continue this weirdness. Wikipedians are here to improve the articles, not to give random awards. 夢の騎士^{Yume no Kishi - Talk}

I agree with the block here. This user reminds me too much of Buenoma (talk · contribs) and Payple (talk · contribs), both of whom I blocked for the same thing (well, they were actually the same user). --Coredesat 09:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It was a silly award. I don't know why he gave it out? Any action (or non-action) is fine by me. I feel so unspecial now =/ --ZayZayEM 09:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I dont think he should be blocked just tell him what hes doing wrong and if he continues then take action mabye ♥Eternal Pink-Ready to fight for love and grace♥ 10:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to change NOR policy in this manner?

This is in reference to a dispute from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#Original_research_in_talk_pages and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#Proposed_Addition_to_the_Policy

Please try to ignore the pettyness (and I'm sorry for the part I've played thus far.)

I am aware that WP:NOR is a "non-negotiable" policy. However, neither that policy (nor in either of the other two articles) specifically states that it must be applied to talk pages (on the contrary, the term "article" is used frequently.) This specific application of the ban on original research is directly supported only by WP:TALK.

Still, several people still insist that this "clarification" would not be possible even with overwhelming consensus (I'm not claiming to have such consensus at this point in time) due to it being a fundemental alteration, even though no one has yet claimed an actual contradiction (other than TALK.)

I believe that this issue needs the involvement of the admins (and quite possibly involvement of the very highest levels) to clarify. CAN we decide that WP:NOR doesn't apply to talk pages, or will such a decision be inevitably vetoed?

Note that most of the controversy is surrounding one specific subtype of original research: synthesis. Did the founders of Wikipedia (and creators of the "non-negotiable" policies) intend for synthesis (i.e. most logical deductions) to be banned from the talk pages, even if it's being used to support an action (such as, for instance, a page redirect) that does NOT add unsourced material to the article itself?

I am not asking whether the admins believe such a policy shift to be wise. I am asking them whether it is possible. --Lode Runner 05:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

"No original research" only applies to article space, and that's always been the case. Likewise NPOV only applies to article space as well. Anyone arguing they do is missing the point and is categorically and unequivocally wrong. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 05:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC) (speaking for myself and not for the Arbitration Committee as a whole)

Clarification (before some smartarse comes along and asks "So what about Portal:" - substitute 'encyclopedia space' for 'article space' above. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 05:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to confirm, you are saying that NOR and NPOV do not apply to article talk pages? Interesting, because many admins have said differently on WP:NOR talk. I agree partially with Lode Runner and what (I think) you're saying here, that article talk pages should allow essentially unrestricted discussion as long as the goal is to improve the article. If so, then we need to change WP:TALK. - Merzbow 05:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

If WP:TALK says that, it should be fixed. I suspect the INTENT of adding that kind of wording was to warn people that they couldn't put unverified harmful stuff on talk pages and have it stay - talk pages are not a free-for-all character assassination zone. However, it is acceptable and always has been to work on stuff on the talk page that's not ready for 'prime time' - that may include stuff we believe to be true but haven't yet foudn a reliable source for, for instance. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 05:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Note well that that does not mean that "essentially unrestricted discussion" is permitted. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 06:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, the proposed changes to the NOR policy by nature allow for unrestricted discussion on talk pages. Clearly, that's unacceptable: talk pages only exist to promote the advancement of the page they represent: whether it be by workshopping future material for inclusion, or discussing changes or gaining consensus. But that's the limit of what talk pages are intended for. Case in point: the 0.999... article (I think that's the proper page title) talk page....it's devolved into a "answer your math questions here" and "Lets argue the validity of proofs unrelated to the article". Accordingly, I MFD'd it, but such a devolution is exactly what the changes proposed by Lode Runner create. As I have mentioned before, modifying NOR necessitates modifying WP:RS,WP:TALK,WP:V,and WP:ATT. That's far too sweeping of a change. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 06:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a clarification on WP:TALK that discussion is intended to produce a result that is NPOV and NOR and should be focused on that goal? IOW, not a place to put all the stuff you'd like to include in the article if it weren't for those pesky policies.

Talk pages aren't an 'anything goes' environment - I just feel that extending NOR and NPOV to them, which was never the intention of those policies, is the wrong way, and a fundamentally broken way, to do that. It's pretending a rule applies that never has in practice, and written policy on Wikipedia is supposed to reflect what's actually done. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 06:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I've been bold, and removed the offending section from WP:TALK. Feel free to restore it, if you can provide an explanation of why that section was needed in the first place. ^Thanks, _{Luc "Somethingorother" French} 07:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Partial revert, because you removed the parts that encouraged editors to adhere to WP:AGF and WP:BLP, both of which are essential in talk pages (especially the former). --Masamage ♫ 07:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Further reverted: without inclusion of something similar to that, the guideline therefore contradicts itself in the beginning : "The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views."

The included statement "There is reasonable allowance for speculation, suggestion and personal knowledge with a view to prompting further investigation, but it is a serious misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements." is vital: it allows for wiggle room, while maintaining the integrity of talk pages to do what they were DESIGNED to do. Removing that statement has the effect of removing that allowance as well, which is clearly not the intention of the guideline. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 07:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Incivility, possible baiting at User talk:Kirbytime

A number of users are trading insults at User talk:Kirbytime. Kirbytime (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems to be the worst offender in terms of civility: [182] (comment with the expletive later struck), [183]. However, I am concerned that the other editors may be baiting him, particularly Matt57 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who here reminds Kirbytime of a block I gave him yesterday [184]. Kirbytime accuses Matt57 of stalking him [185]. As I blocked Kirbytime yesterday, I'm not sure I'm neutral on this and wanted to see if other admins felt this needed to be addressed. Heimstern Läufer 05:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Kirbytime is also edit-warring again, see 3RR. - Merzbow 05:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree to be blocked for this on the condition that Matt57 is blocked as well.--Kirby♥time 05:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Kirby, what should I be blocked for? For reporting your violations against NPA and CIVIL (giving a link to Piss Christ to another user and this)? You have been blocked for 3RR now for 1 week. This is your 4th block within the last 30 days. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 05:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

being blocked is not an option or something you agree to.--Sefringle 05:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Blocked for 1 week by Blnguyen.[186] ··coelacan 06:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree to be blocked if coelacan is blocked for having a username that vaguely reminds me of some sort of ocean creature. Otherwise, I am not allowed to be blocked. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 07:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

....ps....if your sarcasm meter was out of batteries above....⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 07:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to bring the attention of the community with a bit background on the "piss christ" bit. It was addressed to User:Prester John who had created a userbox on his userpage with the title "User:Prester John/Userbox/Allah is Satan"(please note that the text is still on the userpage). This doesn't justify Kirby's comment but explains the situation better. How is it that "Allah is Satan" doesn't deserve any block but "piss christ" has? --Aminz 08:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that, perhaps, a week-long block is too severe of a censur for this case. El_C 08:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It was also a 3RR this time as well, in addition to personal attacks (gave a link link to Piss Christ) and he was just blocked yesterday for disruptive editing. A 24 hour block would mean he would be back again and repeat it all over again. 1 week sounds ok to me. This is his 4th block in the past 30 days. His first two blocks weer blocks for trolling. This is a user who should have been blocked indefinitely at his second block (for trolling and requesting pictures in articles relating to Child Sexuality). Obviously he's not going to change his demeanour here. If you see his contribs, you'll see what he's been doing. His best behavior seems to be reverting and giving a link to a policy (e.g. WP:SOAP) but not explaining why or how it applies etc. 1 week should be enough to hopefully make him come out of the disruptive editing he has been involved in.--Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 11:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Heimstern Läufer, Kirby's allegation of me stalking him is completely false. Please check his contribs and see for yourself. All we were doing is discussing article issues with him on talk last night (e.g. [187],[188],[189],[190] ) and reverting his changes. We were 3 editors (Sefringle, me and Proabivouac). Please do know that he has been called a troll by admins before, and has been blocked two times for that (see his block log). He even removes talk content from his page from admins, calling it 'trolling' when there is none. You'll see that everything he alleges is false, including even the arguments he uses for discussions on articles. The fact that he was edit-warring with admins on his user page just recently should be enough clue as to who the guilty party is. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 11:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Henry Pollack

Can I get a couple of admins to take a hard look at an article? I'm seeing what could be the beginning of some nasty business over the article on Henry Pollack. The subject of the article is very much watching the article and has left a message on the talk page stating in part:

If he continues I shall contact an attorney and sue for liable.

And

I hope that WIKIPEDIA takes immediate action and bans hin from editing anything that has to do with me, my family or my family home in Cuba.

Note that the segment of text which Mr. Pollack objected to was pulled out prior to his leaving the message by someone else in an effort to render the article less POV. Tabercil 05:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The user has made legal threats, so I have blocked him indefinitely. I've told him that I've left a message at the BLP noticeboard, where other editors can give the article more scrutiny. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 06:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Sue for liable? Thats a new one. Viridae^Talk 13:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Brent Corrigan

Hey there. I'm requesting some admin help with a revert war over on the Corrigan article. One poster is stating that, because he doesn't accept information published by the subject on the subjects personal website, the information is therefore contentious and BLP and SELFPUB guidelines don't apply. Myself and another poster have explained the points behind BLP and SELFPUB.

It gets a bit more complicated than that but, unfortunately, at this point we need an admin to come in and make some decisions.Jodyw1 06:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I know you like porn as much as I do (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Resolved

 – Resolved then?--VectorPotential^Talk 12:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate username –Spebi 07:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Blocked, please use WP:AIV next time. Grandmasterka 07:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:UAA appears to have taken over. Viridae^Talk 07:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice. –Spebi 07:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

block review, personal attacks, 31 hours

Meet Prester John. You may remember him from such threads as #Incivility, possible baiting at User talk:Kirbytime, and his eponymous debut, #User:Prester John.

He and I were discussing some T1 userboxes and the possibility of taking his "Allah is Satan" show on the road, at User talk:Prester John#"God" in Muslim articles, when he popped in here at ANI to call for Kirbytime's blocking.

Fine and good, and I support the 1 week block. Prestor John said of Kirbytime's "Piss Christ" comment: "A greater attempt to offend a class of people I have not encountered." I'm a bit surprised by that, since Prestor John baited Kirbytime, then noted that the comment, directed at him, was rather off-target, and collected it for posterity. But hey, we all handle stress differently.

Imagine my surprise, then, when I noticed that only a half hour before demanding Kirbytime's block, Prestor John was making his own personal attacks, calling other editors "leftist scum". A few quick Ctrl-F perusals of his talk page for "personal attack", "npa", and "civil" are quite revealing; he's well aware of the policies, but ignores them.

I feel that this is part of a pattern of disruption along with his insistence on maintaining an inflammatory userpage and his "Allah is Satan" campaign, and that this disruption needs to be brought to some kind of halt, albeit temporarily. I have made a 31 hour block and request that other admins review it. ··coelacan 09:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I found the block acceptable under the circumstances, Prestor John is aware of the policies on civility,NPA etc as they are all linked from his user page. Gnangarra 09:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I endorse this block and the justification. -- mattb 12:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Not an admin, but it seems reasonable to me. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 13:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Kittybrewster

This editor has just made this edit to an ongoing AfD, after creating this redirect and {{Irc}}. Please take appropriate action. Thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• As far as I can see, you are a member of that Wikiproject? In fact did you not use "IRA" in your signature until you were forced to change it? Astrotrain 10:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • It doesn't alter the fact the redirect and the template were inappropriate (I've since deleted), nor the fact the deletion discussion doesn't exactly revolve around Irish Republicanism. The words Irish nor Ireland are nowhere to be seen in the article, so I fail to see any conflict of interest here. I'll leave a similar note on Kittybrewster's talk page. -- Nick ^t 10:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Warning left, AfD additions reverted, one week block pending if this or something similar continues. Daniel Bryant 10:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Can I also raise the issue of this editors canvassing on this AfD. This editor has been warned on several occasions about canvassing but has left a messege on both his own talk page and on the Baronet Project talk page directing people to the AfD. --Vintagekits 10:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I have never before seen an editor go through and mark AfD participants according to the project they belong to, as if they were ineligible voters. However this dispute isn't one-sided. There'a a long-simmering war between some Irish and English editors (chiefly user:Vintagekits and user:Kittybrewster) that has been affecting articles and AfDs concerning English nobility and the Irish Republican Army.

A separate issue is the creation by Kittybrewster of a large number of articles about his family.AfD/Alexander George Arbuthnot. This issue has been discussed at WP:COIN:Arbuthnot.

And VK does have some legitimate issues with KB about vote canvassing. -Will Beback · † · 10:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Also Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2007_April_15#Arbuthnot - Kittybrewster (talk) 11:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Sir William Arbuthnot, 2nd Baronet- where Vintagekits posted a large rant against various editors who voted to keep this article. If these users are bringing up how editors voted in historic AFDs on IRA terrorists, then it is understandable that there is suspicions when a large contingent of Irish Republican Wikiproject members turn up on AFDs on members of the Arbuthnot family. Astrotrain 10:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

My 2p. on this is that both sides are capable of behaving irresponsibly. Vintagekits has been nominating a lot of articles about members of the Arbuthnot family for deletion, some of them more than once, but none of them have yet been closed as a delete. I know that Kittybrewster views this as harassment, and I think he has a good case. I can see this ending in an arbitration case unless there is a sudden outbreak of common sense and each side moves away from the other. There is no reason why Wikipedia should not have good coverage of Scots aristocracy and Irish republicanism. Sam Blacketer 11:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to make a claim like that at least back it up - how many of the many Arbuthnot family articles have I nominated for deletion recently?Vintagekits 11:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

That may well be because of the votestacking and canvassing, more on that later when I've compiled all the evidence. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 11:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent AfDs for Arbuthnots

Here as a background are the recent AfD nominations of members of the Arbuthnot family.

• Sir Keith Arbuthnot, 8th Baronet: 7 March by Nuttah68, closed as keep.
• Robert Arbuthnot (auditor): 26 April by JzG, closed as no consensus.
• Sir William Arbuthnot, 2nd Baronet: 26 April by Vintagekits, closed as no consensus. Note that the subject of this article is Kittybrewster.
• Alexander George Arbuthnot: 6 May by One Night In Hackney, still open.
• John Alves Arbuthnot: 7 May by One Night In Hackney, still open.

Sam Blacketer 12:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that neither of the articles I nominated are aristocrats. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

So Sam do you want to strike through the follow claim that you above - "Vintagekits has been nominating a lot of articles about members of the Arbuthnot family for deletion, some of them more than once". regards--Vintagekits 13:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• I think these pages are just about notable, but it seems to me that their author is more keen to create the category than the pages, and that is the cause of the problem. Now I know I'm not the brightest bagel in the picnic but I fail to understand where the Irish problem is coming from or what it has to do with this matter. Kittybrewster has expressed his feelings here [191] on my talkpage and I don't understand it there either. I think a mediator is needed here, before I begin an indepth series on the lives of my numerous great aunts. Giano 12:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not absolutely certain of what's going on either, although I have been tangentially involved in this matter through a discourse with Vintagekits at the latest AfD. My understanding (and correct me if any of this is wrong, I'm just trying to put together the pieces) is that two groups of editors (one including Kittybrewster, the other including Vintagekits and One Night in Hackney) have previously fallen out over issues of POV pushing with regard to Irish republicanism (one of the above editors until recently appended the name of an Irish terrorist group as part of his signature, for example). The AfD nominations (seemingly of biographies of Kittybrewster's family) and various other high-jinks have basically been part of escalating rounds or bad-faith retaliations between the parties. No-one comes up smelling of roses here, although dispute resolution of whatever form might help to figure out what's been going on, and who (if anyone) is to blame for what, because I can't really follow it myself to be honest. As always however, the solution however is for all sides to cool off and stop being so silly. Badgerpatrol 14:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I never had the name of an Irish terrorist group in my signature. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

You had "IRA" in your signature- see here for example [192]. You now use "303". Doing a google search of 303 IRA [193] gives references to a 303 rifle used by the IRA, as well as your own talk page. Astrotrain 14:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Every one of us had 19th century ancestors, and if they were otherwies non-notable businessmen, they do not need to have Wikipedia articles. If they were Baronets or other titled persons then there is at least a subject for debate as to whether that alone "entitles" them to some inherent nobility. Some project members for titles argue for inherent notability, and other editors feel everyone should be judged by WP:BIO, WP:N and WP:ATT. If non-notable, non-titled ancestors have reached lack of consensus due to canvassing and votestacking, then this pattern of behavior should be stopped. Wikipedia is not a genealogy database; Ancestry.com and like sites welcome complete family trees regardless of whether there are multiple independent and reliable references with substantial coverage of the ancestor. Edison 14:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you did - [194], [195]. I don't think it's helpful but as I recall it has been mentioned here before and you (sensibly) compromised to something less likely to cause offence (although if the "303" is indeed a reference to a type of weapon then that is a return to very poor taste territory indeed...). Unless there's another IRA (maybe the Inland Revenue Association, a club for retired taxmen? With nineteen hundred and sixteen members? Located at number 303 Acacia Avenue? ;-) Badgerpatrol 15:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the issue is not so much one of notability (the notability of these articles is certainly worthy of debate) but perhaps the behaviour of the parties - all the parties - involved. Badgerpatrol 14:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

if you follow this page on a regular basis (as I do), none of those names mentioned above come as much as a surprise - there seems to be an ongoing tit-for-tat frankly childlike bit of fighting going on - how do we sort this out? I have no idea. Oh and I find it very disingenious that ONIH says he never has IRA as part of his signature, yes I know he made the argument that it refered to the historical context but as an editor, he's too bright to know how it would have been taken. --Fredrick day 15:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say I never had IRA in my signature, just that it didn't refer to a modern incarnation. Still, it's nice to know that this has been sidetracked by a disruptive editor, rather than focus on the issues at hand. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:DE by User:Fubar Obfusco

A number of editors had been going back and forth over at Youth for Human Rights International over terming it a "front group" and providing a "front group back story". No big deal - day in the life. User:Antaeus Feldspar, one of the participants, restored it again and I removed it to talk, realizing that this edit-war was going nowhere. That was the correct thing to do and User:Antaeus Feldspar did not reinsert. Some hours later User:Fubar Obfusco comes by and reverts my edit with the summary "rvv" for, I assume, "revert vandalism". Now I am not objecting here to calling my edit "vandalism" nor am I claiming that this is the Mother of All Offenses. I am it calling Disruprtive Editing as it is clearly disruptive of the process whereby good faith editors can work out their differences. User:Fubar Obfusco had not previously edited in that article and his "drive-by" is entirely inappropriate and disruptive. Not the first time he did this by a long shot, I find about six similar "rvv" instances in the Scientology series in recent months; here is just one where I object, again a "drive-by" where he never edited previously. Lots more but this latest is clearly disruptive. Thank you --Justanother 11:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The article's history page indicates that what either side could call revert vandalism has occurred. This is also FoO's first edit to said article:history calling it disruptive seems a bit rash. Anynobody 11:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

If you read what I wrote, you will see that I am not being rash at all. --Justanother 13:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Another unauthorised bot

PhotoUploadsBot33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been blocked. It had the same modus operandi as the one that was blocked earlier. It'd be best to keep a look-out for these unauthorised bots. --SunStar Net ^talk 11:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Methinks it was just an impersonator. Like the last one, there isn't enough evidence to prove that the impersonated user made a bot. --24.136.230.38 12:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

66.215.157.32 Personal Attacks on talk pages

I'd like to flag what 66.215.157.32 is putting up on talk pages.

• Talk:Coca-Cola Blāk Diff "Mostly because this is a DOT ORG American website and partially because any American who uses Eurospelling should be shot in the head and their brains splattered onto the nearest sidewalk."

• I have since undid this edit.

• Talk:San Gabriel Valley Diff "Removed, from the bullshit paragraph "Walmartization" the following "Due to wide spread public opposition" due to POV and it being blatantly bullshit. Please resubmit with reference."
• Talk:Sony Ericsson W810 Diff "Unless the POV is almost entirely critical of corporations, it always sounds like that to you tards."

...and to a lesser extent...

• Talk:Del Taco Diff "Fuck those people. Let em protest the damn protest monkeys. I still ate at Del Taco today, the shredded beef burrito. Take that! Boycott monkeys!"
• Talk:Coca-Cola Diff "Kaylene was here!"
• Talk:Nestea Diff "Edited Euro-spelling ie Flavor/flavour."

I haven't warned the user yet, as I haven't done this before. However, I don't agree with what they are doing and would like an admin to look into it. Thanks. Bren ^talk 12:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I've posted a warning; thanks for the "heads-up"!

Atlant 15:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Block review

Markrad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Cwanet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Uploading images as pd-self which are extremely unlikely to be their own work, and several seem to come from a rugby union calendar. Lack of response to messages on Talk, numerous re-uploads after deletion, fair use galleries on articles, that kind of thing. Guy (Help!) 13:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 13:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Seems reasonable enough to block, certainly. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandal account

User:Death_grim is only doing vandalism using his account Special:Contributions/Death_grim. I will appreciate if someone stop him and save our time from continue reverting him. --- A. L. M. 14:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Account hacked?

I think we may have an other compromised admin account. I am KnowledgeOfSelf, and when I first popped on the WP this morning I was logged in and posting a few messages to Wiki Alf. During a lull in the chatter I went to my kitchen to make a cup of coffee, when I came back down and clicked on the edit tab to post a reply to Alf I noticed I was not logged in anymore. When I went to re-log in I was told I was using an incorrect password. All attempts to re-log in have failed. I hit the "E-mail new password" at the sign/in page, but I have yet to receive it. Since it seems to be taking far to long to get that new password, (over an hour now), I decided to make this account and email my KOS name, I was told that the KOS account does not have it’s email setup/or does not allow other users to email that account. This can not be the case. Because as an administrator who does a lot of RC and New account patrol I do get the occasional complaint by email about auto blocks, “My user name is not derogatory”, “unblock me now” etc. I know that I have my Email enabled, on my KOS name, in fact I received an email from HighInBC yesterday about admins accounts being hacked. I find this very troubling, and although my KOS account has not gone on a rouge rampage, I feel a pre-emptive temporary desysop may be in order. ActWonActToo 14:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I hate to assume bad faith, but until it actually does go rouge, I have no reason to believe anything is wrong. Others probably have other opinions. --Ali'i 15:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

other slight problem here - how do we know you are who you say you are (from a security point of view)? - is it possible for you to email another admin on a known email address as some form of confirmation ? (unless we have a better system set-up). --Fredrick day 15:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

<edit conflict twice>

Although troubling I do think we need to ensure you are indeed KnowledgeOfSelf before taking any serious action. For all we know this is someone playing tricks to get the account blocked. Not sure how that may be accomplished though. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 15:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm well yes, I would like to make a suggestion, could someone attempt to email KnowledgeOfSelf through the email this user funtion? See if it will go through. If that doesn't work I could always send an email from my email address which is the same as my WP one. ActWonActToo 15:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The account has turned that feature off, so emailing him through the "e-mail this user" interface is of course impossible. If you indeed were an admin you would know that, and not ask people to try it. Shanes 15:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well the editor mentioned in her/his first post that that was the case, so s/he did know it. Anchoress 15:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping that it was a technical blip that was not allowing this account to email my KOS one. There is no reason to be snarky. ActWonActToo 15:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, I am not a computar wizard, but is it possible to hijack the account while somebody sits at home? Assuming one uses a firewall/spyware and other stuff. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 15:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The edits by the ip and the account 'ActWonActTwo' (and the very choice of that particular username) are either incredibly convincing impostering or KOS himself, but though it floats and quacks like KOS, I'd like to be sure.--Alf ^melmac 15:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The risk in a pre-emptive desysopping is that we look a bit foolish if it turns out not to be needed. The risk in not doing the desysopping is potentially greater. This is good enough for me. Haukur 15:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I've just tried to email the KnowledgeOfSelf account - "This user has not specified a valid e-mail address, or has chosen not to receive e-mail from other users." :s --Alf ^melmac 15:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Tough one this one, why wouldn't the account have gone on a rampage already if it was hacked? It sounds like there could be a technical problem with the account, but maybe it would be better to shoot first and ask later - it can always be resysopped. Ryan Postlethwaite 15:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The people doing the rampages may have figured out that blocking Jimbo and deleting the mainpage isn't all it's cracked up to be. They may be planning something more sophisticated. Better paranoid and hysteric than sorry - I say someone get onto IRC and contact a steward. Haukur 15:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. ActWonActToo 15:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Can we use a check user to see if the two accounts are from the same IP, and if another IP has accessed the admin account recently? ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 15:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Possibly yes, but it could be a disaster waiting to happen, I suggest if anyone is on IRC getting the stewards to desysop the account temporarily whilst someone here files a cU request. Ryan Postlethwaite 15:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't like this one bit. I'm not sure if shooting first and asking questions later is the correct form of action. It's trivial for any banned troll to make a new account claiming that their "old admin account" was hacked, and thus, get a valid admin desysopped for no reason whatsoever. I think this is someone piggybacking off of the admin account hacking scare to cause trouble for the admin that banned them. We already cracked all of the weak passwords yesterday and forced the admins to change them, so I don't think we're at very high risk anymore. --Cyde Weys 15:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• <edit conflict>Indeed, the details sound to suspicious to me. Not at all convinced it is not a hoax. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 15:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

As I said, the account can always be resysopped, it's not like anything bad has been done from the account yet. Cu will most probably reveal all. Ryan Postlethwaite 15:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

If ActWonActToo is a scammer he's a very sophisticated one. Haukur 15:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

You think so? I see nothing sophisticated about this at all. It's very basic social engineering. --Cyde Weys 15:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It's academic at this point but, yes, this would have been extremely sophisticated. Look at all of ActWonActToo's contribs and that of the associated IP. Haukur 15:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and another thing. During the devs' password cracking yesterday, any admin accounts with weak passwords had their passwords scrambled and instructions on setting a new password emailed to their registered email account. If this person claiming to be KnowledgeOfSelf is really is KnowledgeOfSelf, it's likely that they just lost their admin account, but not due to a hacker — it was because they had a weak password and no registered email address. --Cyde Weys 15:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The User:KnowledgeOfSelf account is now uploading Goatse images. See [196] - Ehheh 15:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Images deleted, account blocked - is someone on IRC yet? Haukur 15:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It must be desysoped now. I'm telling you that is not me uploading those images. ActWonActToo 15:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Get on IRC someone. Ryan Postlethwaite 15:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• That answers the question. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 15:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • 15:27, 8 May 2007 Drini (Talk | contribs) changed group membership for User:KnowledgeOfSelf@enwiki from sysop to (none) (rogue). --ais523 15:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Ignore everything else I said. --Cyde Weys 15:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

desysopped Ryan Postlethwaite 15:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well this turned into a shitty morning. Thanks Drini. ActWonActToo 15:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Still curious how an account can be compromised while being logged in at home and presumably using security stuff on the computer. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 15:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Being logged in has zero effect on someone logging in as you illicitly (at least on Wikipedia). WP allows multiple logins from multiple machines at the same time, so the first you'd notice is probably when your cookie expires. More than that is probably stuffing beans up my nose.. -- nae'blis 15:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm at work at the moment and won't be able to get onto IRC/Skype for another three hours, I have KOS's skype contact and having had many previous chats with KOS, I will be able to tell if I'm speaking to KnowledgeOfSelf or not, if that helps in getting the account sorted out later on.--Alf ^melmac 15:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess one question that remains is, What was your password under the KoS account? Was it weak enough to be cracked? --Ali'i 15:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Alphanumeric, combination of lower and upper case with 5 numbers thrown in. I thought it was alright. ActWonActToo 15:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Guess there getting better then. Ryan Postlethwaite 15:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Assuming it was a good password (and not "Password12345", which meets the specifications he gave), I don't think we're looking at a brute-force crack. There's simply way too many possible passwords. Unfortunately, there's all sorts of attack vectors he could have been hit from. I guess the first question I would ask is, at which other places did you use the same password? --Cyde Weys 15:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Is it true that freenode's password database got compromised a while back? I have no source, I just heard it in passing. If the same password is used in both places... ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 15:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

No I don't use the same password on IRC, and no Cyde I'm not ignorant enough to do something as obtuse as Password12345. :-) ActWonActToo 15:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Question

Resolved

 – Not a question per se, just trolling. EVula // talk // ☯ // 15:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I hope this is the right place to ask this, but I was wondering how the random page function works? What type of algorithm does it use? Thanks.--[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=delete TodM4] 15:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Try asking at WP:VPT. By the way, I hope you don't mind me nowikiing part of your sig... --ais523 15:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I clicked it before you nowiki'd it and have blocked the user as a troll. Feel free to review/change as needed. - auburnpilot talk 15:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

That little trick deserved an immediate ban.

Atlant 15:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

*laugh* I'm sorry, that was REALLY funny, in a juvenile sort of way... do they not know about the confirmation screen? Support the block, of course. -- nae'blis 15:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hah. Awesome trick. Too bad about the intermediate page... – Riana_ऋ 15:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion for enhanced Admin identification and security

I was wondering if it would be possible to set up some sort of secure secondary identification system for Admins (and perhaps all users). This would be similar to what bank and credit card sites do now (i.e. require answer(s) to some random question(s) or just a secondary password).

The purpose of these secondary IDs would be two-fold. First, they would allow compromised account holders to reliably identify themselves in some manner (again the technical details are vague, but perhaps a secure page where they could login and have some confirmation produced on satifactorily answering a question or two). Second, perhaps this could be used to further protect the Main Page, announcements that go at the top of all pages, and other WP:BEANS items I have no idea about (so before you deleted the Main Page or added something to every page as a banner or blocked Jimbo, you would have to enter a second password unique to yourself).

The secondary ID would not be needed for routine edits or routine admin functions, just those that could really screw up the encyclopedia. It could also have much more stringent failed attempt limits to thwart brute force attempts to crack it (two or three wrong tries to log in and you are blocked for an hour or a day). I hope this idea is helpful, Ruhrfisch 15:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)