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WP:COMPETENCE problem with Arctic Kangaroo on AfC

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Arctic Kangaroo (talk · contribs) is an enthusiastic young editor who has taken an interest in Articles for creation and helped reduce the backlog. Unfortunately, he's been making too many mistakes, mostly declining articles on people who are actually notable for irrelevant or spurious reasons (eg: Austen M. Purves, Jr., Paul Prucnal, Mike Feerick, Sarah Green, Nitzan Chen).

My impression is that AK is rushing through submissions, declining them too quickly. I've already had words with him at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/July 2013 Backlog Elimination Drive#Increasingly frivolous multiple decline reasons, and Mdann52 has also advised him to back off AfC for a bit as he's causing too many problems here. I've also been advised by Geo Swan of a further problem over on Commons over a lack of understanding of our copyright policies here. Despite increasingly straight talking, I find he's still making questionable judgement calls on AfC today here. He really needs to just take a break from this area.

AK's not malicious, he wants to help and feels he is, but I just don't feel he has the required maturity to deal with AfC reviewing, and as such I feel a topic ban from AfC would help protect the encyclopaedia. What does everyone else think? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:01, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) I've recently been helping on out the -en-help channel of IRC and the week of the backlog, there were at least a few AfC submitters that popped in asking why their draft had been declined. Upon review, I had no good answer for them because I could see no reason to decline (some only had minor formating issues or bare URLs that needed fixing, not a reason to decline), and all had been declined by AK. I agree that AK is likely good intentioned, but unable to to reasonably assess these drafts. I've personally kept my reviewing to a minimum (instead focusing on improving the templates and the reviewer script) patiently awaiting the completion of Theonesean's AFC reviewer training program and think that an enforced topic ban would be appropriate here if AK refuses to self impose one until he can complete the training program. Technical 13 (talk) 21:47, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I see that Arctic Kangeroo has been notified. When he posts here, it would be helpful if he briefly explained why he declined the specific AfC's mentioned above. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:57, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• AK is keen to be of help on Wikipedia, and always cheerful. However, maintenance areas are always a magnet to younger and/or inexperienced editors, and AK is no exception. I've tried to help him a few times as evidenced here, here, here, here, and here. His responses to me are always friendly and polite and he's the kind kind of editor I would willingly adopt if I did adoptions. I don't think any admin action is needed here other than a firm message to slow down a bit, stop reviewing and/or patrolling new pages for a while until at least we have a satisfactory report from his mentor. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I had no idea an AfC reviewer mentoring program was in place, and I think sending AK on that is a much, much, better idea than any sort of formal action, if I'm honest. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

• I am sorry, but in my limited interaction with him, I did not find AK to be "keen to be of help". Rather, I found him willing to cause a lot of disruption in order to get his own way, even when doing so would cause a lot of inconvenience to others. Mind you, those threats of disruption were over at Commons, and, traditionally, bad behaviour at one WMF project isn't held against a contributor who seems to be well behaved at another project. But AK threatened something highly disruptive there -- across dozens of projects.

1. AK requested deletion of a fine image, one widely used across many WMF projects, asserting he was no longer licensing it for use one commons -- because he wanted it to be used exclusively on en.wiki. His justification for doing so was, frankly, trivial and selfish.
2. Of course he can't claw back a legitimate cc-by-sa license -- it is irrevocable. We sometimes agree to delete properly licensed images -- as a courtesy. But no one could remember doing so when that image was widely used.
3. AK then seemed to announce that he would address the "widely used" objection, by going to all those other WMF projects, and editing the articles that were using the image in question, so they no longer used it. What AK threatened here was, frankly, extremely selfish and extremely disruptive.
4. Two followup comments AK made seem to indicate that AK actually started going to other wikis, to try to edit articles so they no long used his image -- only to be frustrated by instances when he lacked permission to perform the disruptive acts of selfish image removal. We have no idea on how many WMF projects he succeeded in this selfish image removal.
5. I don't think AK has shown any contrition. I've asked him on which projects he succeeded in his clandestine image removal plan -- no reply so far.

Since he started acting as a reviewer, at AfC, Arctic Kangaroo declined 614 candidate articles, and agreed to move 138 articles to article space. I am afraid I think we should have no confidence in AK's judgement and that all 752 decisions need to be reviewed. Here is a list of candidate articles that he declined: User:Geo Swan/AK's AfC declines.

Yes, I agree, that participating on WMF projects can be a good learning experience for keen young people. But providing that learning experience should only be accommodated when it is consistent with our primary goal of building an encyclopedia.

I suggest that when a contributor's record suggests a long learning curve before they can counted on to make contributions that we can count on being overall positive, it would be in the best interest of the project if we did not encourage them to try to contribute in critical areas -- like quality control. Over in the Commons deletion discussion AK insisted he did understand copyright and related IP issues, yet he kept making assertions that demonstrated he did not understand copyright and IP issues. For instance, he not only thought he was entitled to remove instances where his image was being used on other WMF projects he thought that if the image was deleted from the commons his release of his intellectual property rights would lapse, and he would have all his original IP rights restored. AK was not open to learning from his mistakes there, and I suggest this implies he won't be very open to learning from his mistakes here. Geo Swan (talk) 16:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

• I appreciate AK's eagerness (even though he stole my signature without attribution), however, I have also found that he is not overly keen to accept critique. I'm not going to go digging for the details, but he once screwed up something pretty badly that he should not have been touching in the first place. He had already been previously warned not to do that type of action. I dropped a friendly WTF notice on his talkpage so that he could fix the problem himself instead of further action being taken. Many many days later, he tried to use that friendly kick as an example of me being "uncivil", rather than the helpful learning (and non-blocking) experience that it was. I would far prefer to rein him in than anything else - perhaps a voluntary ban on AFC, plus engaging him to assist in the re-review of all of his AFC actions (just like we do on CCI) (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:01, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
  • @Bwilkins: As I have mentioned, it was not about "WTF". Rather, it was about the shouting (with ?!?!?!). ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:15, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

AK, you probably want to let this one drop. I found the exchange, read through it, and concluded that Bwilkins was simply giving you good advice. You should take that advice in the spirit intended. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Yup, I dropped it long ago. I'm just explaining to let him understand. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:56, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

A voluntary ban is a good option if the editor is patient enough to do that and learn through the process. It is better to have a large backlog instead of having discouraged first time article creators.  A m i t  웃   02:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• I ran into one of AK's poorly considered declines at AFC, on a biography I thought was quite worthy. Here is the decline decision by AK, based on the actress being "non-notable". After a call for help at the Film Project, a few of us teamed up to expand the article and nail down the references. The resulting Miriam Battista biography was soon featured at "Did you know?" and is now a cheerful little article assessed as C-Class. The editor who first proposed the article became more interested in Wikipedia and has been working on other articles. I shudder to think how many such promising contributors have been scared away by an unreasonable decline from AK. Binksternet (talk) 03:24, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• He probably is the least accurate of all the frequent AfC reviewers. Examining 3 dozen random declines from the list given, about 25% needed speedy deletion but weren't nominated, about 25% could be accepted with only minor changes, about 25% were not acceptable but the reason given wasn't accurate, and the others were declined correctly, though in no case did he offer what I consider sufficient advice. At least a few of the promising new editors have been scared away by the reviews, and I'm trying to bring back some of them, but it's probably too late. (About half of the declines were reviewed by one or more other editors . Many of these subsequent reviews were not correct either. My guesstimate that 60% is the average level of accuracy for AfC declines; that's a very poor figure, but his accuracy is only half that.

Frankly, I've tried to assist AK, but I don't think he understands. Most reviewers I try to help do learn to understand, and some realize they need to learn more before they continue. We have to clean up the AfC reviewing, and here's a place to start. If he won;t accept a voluntary topic ban from AfC (and NPP, because he'd do just as much harm there), he needs it done involuntarily to protect our new contributors. DGG ( talk ) 05:37, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

In his time on Wikipedia, AK started just three articles; two are now Start Class and one is a Stub. I suggest that AFC volunteers ought to be familiar with the process of taking their articles at least to B-Class, and more than just a few of them. Binksternet (talk) 05:58, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

AK's AfC submissions for this month are in his July backlog drive chart here. As part of the backlog drive, other, more experienced editors, should review the submissions. AK has voluntarily signed up for his contributions to be reviewed, so if you want to specifically track his progress, this is the place to do it. 21 fails out of 79 checks so far is about 1 in 4 called wrongly, but only about 1/10 of his reviews have been checked so far. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:51, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

So, will someone be telling him that such "quality" of work will most definitely not obtain the award he seems to be chasing after - just like all edits, it's quality not quantity that matters (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure how many times I've gotta say this, that it's my inexperience and noobiness that's spoiling the quality of some. The rest of the reviews are fine. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 15:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Hmmm. This is a confusing comment -- implying you have acknowledged that your declines fell short in earlier messages. But isn't this the first time you have acknowledged that your declines fell short?

Do you know the aphorism "even a stopped clock is correct twice a day". Using DGG's assessment of how often you gave the useful, correct reason for declining, are your declines really that much more accurate than random chance? Even the 60 percent accurate, 40 percent inaccurate DGG estimated for other reviewers determinations is disturbing.

I don't think you understand why a bad determination at AfC is damaging to the project. I question whether you really want to understand. How about you describe your understanding of how a bad determination affects a genuine newbie who has struggled hard to prepare a new article? User:Geo Swan 19:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

For the Commons thing, Commoners are being unreasonable. Sometimes, rules should be bent a little, especially if it is a mistake (yes, it was all a mistake to upload those images). But anyway, I'm not gonna delve into details, since this is not the place and what we are talking about. Back to point, I don't mind taking a short semi-break at AfC. Anyway, I've got the haze article to get busy with these few days, since Indonesia is back, and the haze has hit Malaysia yet again, although Singapore has been unaffected by the return. And BTW, I did not know about the AfC course, but I signed up yesterday after reading about it. As for not responding immediately, I just wanted to see some comments first, so at least I can respond better. Cheers. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:03, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Besides AK, I think there is a larger problem with AfC... every time I take a look at the submissions, I remain often puzzled by the lack of competence of many reviewers... I think we should have a "method" to avoid these "incidents". Cavarrone 12:24, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm developing, with the help of the wonderful community at AfC, a mentoring program to reduce the chances of this happening again. This would possibly be linked to a reviewer whitelist, or blacklist, whichever would work best. So, changes are imminent. theonesean 04:14, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban proposed

This is pretty alarming, especially DGG's experiences with the editor. AK is enthusiastic and wants to help — those are excellent qualities — we do want to be nice and appreciative and encouraging to him, but the risk of scaring off well-intentioned new contributors must surely take priority. AK hasn't chosen to take part in this discussion, even though he was immediately alerted of it, and is editing. That doesn't bode well for the idea of a voluntary ban which was broached above, and I just don't think we ought to wait for something like that. I suggest a topic ban from AfC and WP:NPP until such time as AK either can show that he "understands", per DGG above, or else gets a mentor who ongoingly checks all his work in these areas. Bishonen | talk 13:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC).

AK has not touched any AfC reviews since this one two days ago, and has been working on content. If he says he's going to voluntarily abstain from AfC, let's take him at his word for the minute. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

@Ritchie: I'm on semi-AfC-break, as mentioned above. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree on the same. He has himself enrolled to the AFC course and we should assume good faith this time. And probably thats the end of this ANI too...  A m i t  웃   14:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I would like to see AK declare a full break from AFC for six months while he works on content. Binksternet (talk) 14:55, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Six months, I would say, is almost impossible. Furthermore, it's a full break and I will be a free bird after October 2, having nothing to do everyday until perhaps, the start of 2014. If it's semi-break, I don't mind, but for a full break, especially one that's 6 months long, nah. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:59, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I've been on Wikipedia for seven years, on the internet in one form or another for about 20, and on this planet for nearly 40. And that's not saying much. You can do six months. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

At the moment, I will only be reviewing Doncram's submissions. Easiest to find, easiest to review. For the rest of them, will discuss here. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 15:09, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, AK, that is not the offer that is on the table. As you can see upthread, some editors (not least DGG and BWilkins) are quite comfortable with serving you a mandatory AfC / NPP topic ban right here, right now, but Binksternet has given what seems to be a compromise. The offer is - no AfC work at all for six months, stick to articles, get a mentor and read up on policies. I think, unless anyone else wants to pass comment, the only question now is whether you want to accept that off your own back, or whether you want it to be imposed on you. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Ritchie333's assessment above. A semi-AfC pause presumably means that AK will do less AfC work than now, concentrating only on those areas which s/he judges to be uncontroversial. That's the problem; it's AK's judgement about what is and is not controversial which is at issue, and the consensus is that AK's judgement is poor. I'm not in favour of a semi-AfC pause. I'm not very keen on voluntary, self-imposed band either but a total voluntary ban, strictly adhered to, for 6 months would convince me. Failing that it's a community imposed ban, for my money. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 17:36, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec with Kim) Agree with Ritchie. A six-month topic ban makes sense, and a "semi-break" doesn't sound promising at all; impossible to supervise, in fact essentially completely up to the user's own judgment, which has been questioned here. That's probably why you never hear of "semi-bans". AK, did you really not think there were any comments here worth answering until just after an explicit proposal of a topic ban had been made (by me)? I can't admire your timing there. Bishonen | talk 17:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC).

• Support mandatory 6-month holiday from AfC and NPP, per proposal. I'd also support a 6-month break from tagging articles for deletion, broadly construed. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:52, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, Anthony, I meant to support a six-month ban from NPP as well, as per my original proposal. But I can't see anything upthread about a problem with tagging for deletion (maybe I'm missing it). Could you specify about that? Bishonen | talk 21:47, 23 July 2013 (UTC).
    • I was assuming someone having trouble assessing AFCs would also have problems choosing articles to tag for deletion. On reflection, maybe spending time at AfD would be useful for AK - similar skill set but more scrutiny. Be that as it may, I was over-reaching, so have struck it. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The attitude AK is expressing here is simply unacceptable. "If it's semi-break, I don't mind, but for a full break, especially one that's 6 months long, nah." AK, this isn't about what you mind or not--it's about what's best for Wikipedia. Based on the statistics cited above, your actions are cause clear and probably (as DGG points out) irreparable harm, by driving away new editors who are producing good content. Personally, I don't understand why we're "offering" a voluntary 6 month ban, since, if AK doesn't take it, the result needs to be a mandatory 6 month ban. That's like saying "Please volunteered to be lashed 40 times. If you don't agree, we're going to punish you by lashing you 40 times." This behavior has to stop, and I don't care whether we call it mandatory or volunteer, but just stop it. (that's a Support for the topic ban, in case this is about counting votes). Qwyrxian (talk) 23:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose 6-month ban as too harsh. Support 3-month ban from AfC and NPP. I've proposed a 6-month ban in the past for an AfC reviewer who was an absolute menace, whose understanding of English was so poor that they would reply incomprehensibly to article submitters who asked for explanations for chaotic declines of submissions, and that proposal went nowhere. AK does at least have a reasonable command of English (so much so that there have been on-wiki suggestions that he's lying when he claims to be under 16!), and that's an improvement on some of what's happening at WP:AfC. Also, I see a lot of this decline-button-hammering as having been caused by the limitations of the WP:AfC drive itself; either the reviews of reviews need to happen more often or have more bite when they do, or else the "awards" should not be given to editors who have consistently failed to respond (sensibly) to questions on their talk page about their reviews. (AK is currently headed to receive the topmost prize for the current AfC drive; does that not indicate some problem with that process?) Finally, I would point out that AK is very young, shows remarkable promise considering his age, and has the benefit of a slightly older wiki-friend who uses the same WP:ENGVAR who has been offering considerable assistance (including doing much of the reviewing of AK's reviews). With these advantages, there's no reason to think he can't be ready to review again in 3 months. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
• Prefer the 6 month, I can live with 3 months as per Demi's proposal on all NPP and AFC reviews as long as it's coupled with the right training/mentoring (✉→BWilkins←✎) 00:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• NOTE: following AK's behaviour on this very discussion, I am no longer convinced that AK will have learned anything within 3 months. At this point, I'm leaning towards beliving that a 3 month BLOCK from the project, followed by 6 months Topic Ban from AFC and NPP along with intensive training to be the probably only way forward (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Wait a minute...please justify that. I haven't been reviewing any AfCs these few days, and I have agreed to take an AfC adoption. It's just that I'm leaving the duration of the topic ban to the community, as you said. Even though I'm not topic-banned now, I have already voluntarily abstained myself from AfC, so that actually makes the total period of the ban longer, although of course, for example the ban is 6 months, the ban still expires 6 months after this discussion is closed. Anyway, I've got to get busy on the haze article already...the haze is back in Singapore! I will be rolling out lots of content already, and blocking me will mean missing it. I don't keep newspapers, dude, they are sold to garung gunis after a few weeks. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

It's called you behaviour in this very thread. That's the justification (✉→BWilkins←✎) 01:29, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• AK, have you participated in any sort of formal mentoring or WP:ADOPTION process previously? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support six month ban from AfC and NPP. My first comment on this case was rather positive in AK"s favour in so far as I believed, and still do, that he thought he was reviewing in good faith. However, his own statement of inexperience and noobiness strongly emphasises that no noobs or inexperienced editors should be interfering with the 'management' areas of Wikipedia. What I have discovered at AfC in the past couple of weeks has given me goose bumps and a shake up of the participants is long overdue. Some of the problems are due to the AfC project's own aggressive recruiting (possibly coinciding with school vacations) for reviewers and as with all management areas, has clearly attracted new and/or inexperienced users. The shake up has to start here, and unfortunatly for AK, he is going to be one of the catalysts. There won't need to be another long ANI like this one for the others; it will simply be a couple of official requests to cease and desist voluntarily or risk a TBAN or even a summary preventative block for disruption. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Ain't no school vacations. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• support up to a month or successful completion of the mentoring program. Oppose for any longer duration. This is supposed to be preventative, and we all need to bear WP:AGF in mind. Tazerdadog (talk) 02:23, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• FYI: I just noticed that this discussion was initially triggered by Geo Swan’s attempt to find real age of AK on Ritchie333’s talk page. GS took part in that DR very late; and started attacking AK and everybody who behaved softly to AK, considering his age. Finally MichaelMaggs, a crat had to say "As a side note, I was sorry to see Jkadavoor being attacked for trying to help him. This is an international project and there are differences in culture and language; Jkadavoor was not trying to be sarcastic as appears to have been assumed above" to stop such attacks. Then GS uploaded all the works of AK to Flickr ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]) and started threatening him, violating Flickr’s community guidelines. (According to http://www.flickr.com/help/guidelines/: "Don’t upload anything that isn't yours. This includes other people's photos, video, and/or stuff you've copied or collected from around the Internet. Accounts that consist primarily of such collections may be deleted at any time." I informed this matter to Flickr/Yahoo support team and hopefully waiting for their response.) I think this is enough regarding the “common things”. JKadavoor Jee 04:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I dispute I attacked Arctic Kangaroo, Jkadavoor, or anyone else involved in these discussions, and said so in more detail on User talk:Jkadavoor.

With regard to whether I was trying to out AK's real age, after AK followed the advice he should claim to be a minor, I asked him to have his parents or legal guardian confirm his age, and I encouraged him to have them use OTRS to confirm he was a minor, in order to preserve his privacy. I don't care if Arctic Kangaroo is 17, 15, or even 12 -- so long as he can consistently behave responsibly, civilly, competently. Geo Swan (talk) 07:16, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

This possible attempt at WP:OUTING is very concerning ... even moreso if you did, indeed, re-upload AK's images to Flickr. I'd like to see proof of the former, and would encourage you to undo the latter (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, very concerning. Block! Outing is a no no, say the WikiGods... ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• I dispute I outed AK's age.

1. The first person to assert AK was a minor was Jkadavoor, on 2013-07-13, suggesting he should be cut more slack, because he was "a schoolboy".
2. After many suggestions he could get his way in the deletion discussion if he claimed to be a minor AK wrote "And, please understand that all the uploads were mistakes, as I was unfamiliar, and still young (U16)." I didn't "out" him, he volunteered this information.
3. In my reply I said I thought if AK really was a minor he should get his parents or legal guardian to confirm this -- VIA OTRS. I suggested OTRS to preserve his privacy. I don't want to know his personal details. Geo Swan (talk) 15:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• From the first to last comment, I had advised all the participants to behave properly following the guidelines, several times. But unfortunately many participants including GS behaved very poorly to him. You will get an idea if you read the entire discussion. JKadavoor Jee 17:07, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose 6 month ban which is unduly punitive but Support a 3 month ban, which is more reasonable. A large amount can be learnt about Wikipedia in a few months. AfC needs editors with a sound knowledge of Wikipedia's basic principles. AK admits they are currently a newbie. Some of the problem stemmed from the fact they were invited to take part in a AfC backlog drive where there is a strong motivation for quantity over quality. AfC probably needs to review how and when they carry out backlog drives, rather than punish enthusiastic participants. Sionk (talk) 06:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• • This is not punishment, it's self-preservation. AK has been burning off prospective contributors and I don't see any recognition from AK of the seriousness of that. There are squillions of other things a person can do here, the most useful of which - in terms of improving AK's ability to decide the fate of others' good-faith article efforts - would be to actually write content. Six months may seem like a lifetime to a child, but even under the constant coddling of a mentor it is a very optimistic time-scale. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:54, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Six months is a child's entire godding life!!!! ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm going to be slightly awkward, but hopefully this'll be a good compromise to what everyone else has said so we can get consensus ... I will support a voluntary three month AfC/NPP topic ban if AK responds to it in the affirmative soon. By saying "yes, I will take the ban", it proves he is prepared to put the needs of the project and the community ahead of the needs of himself, and he is personally promising to improve as an editor. Otherwise, I will support an involuntary six month ban of the same. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I supported a six-month ban above, but I'll go with your suggestion which I don't feel to be awkward at all. I will however point out that while A large amount can be learnt about Wikipedia in a few months, it takes longer to assume an appropriate level of maturity, and helping users on their way to adulthood is not within our remit. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support a 3 month ban, with mentoring & training in the meantime. GiantSnowman 11:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support a 6 month ban, with mentoring & training included. Not punitive, but preventive, to avoid further "damages" in a very sensitive area that requires the highest competence, that in my view this editor proved not to have (yet). Cavarrone 12:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• The purpose of a ban or block is to protect the project. I suggest we have good reasons to believe AK's actions will continue to be highly damaging. In particular Arctic Kangaroo has a pattern of not taking responsibility for mistakes. On commons, and on my talk page, AK is on record that he is not responsible for previous mistakes because he is legally too young to be held responsible. I don't care how old a contributor is -- so long as they contribute in a responsible, civil, competent manner. But, it seems to me, AK is acting like claiming to be under 16 means he should not feel responsible for his mistakes. Discussion above strongly suggests to me that AK is unable to really recognize the weaknesses in his contributions, and that makes me think he faces a long learning curve, may never understand what he was doing wrong. In that commons discussion AK kept insisting he understood copyright, when he very clearly didn't.

If we were to take at face value his claims to be under 16, and to interpret his comments as if he was saying he shouldn't feel an obligation to take responsibilities for mistakes because he was a minor, then we shouldn't expect him to try to act responsibly for more than two years.

I suggest the topic ban should include a ban on nominations in {{xfd}}.

I suggest the ban's duration should not be fixed, but that it should last as long as his mentors feel he is unready to act competently, civilly and responsibily. Geo Swan (talk) 12:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Whoa there...let's investigate this Can you provide a diff where he even suggests that he has no "obligation to take responsibilities for mistakes because he was a minor"?? I think this is a very valid rabbit hole to start going down if such a thing was even hinted at by AK (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:29, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I think the diff is this one where AK says " I'm also just a minor, so how well do you think I can understand these copyright and law stuff?". Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 13:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hard truth: The pictures will stay. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• • With regard to AK taking responsibility -- when he was told the commons image he wanted deleted wasn't eligible for courtesy deletion because it was in use on other projects he said he would visit all those other projects and remove it from those articles, so it no longer in use! No, I am not making this up.

    Later he complained he lacked sufficient permissions to remove all use of his fine image from all projects. I have told him that the responsible thing to do would be to go back to the articles on other projects, and restore usage of his image. He has not responded to this suggestion.

    I have asked him for an estimate of how many articles he succeeded in removing the image. He has not responded to this question. Geo Swan (talk) 12:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• I feel an obligation to comment here. It's saddening to see an ANI thread concerning you (unless it's something good?). The fine prints of Wikimedia: Once you give us the goods, there ain't no takin' it back. Likewise I have to agree that once AK donated those photos, he could have never taken them back. Unless, AK, you say that you took those photos from another site, and it's not yours. I don't think that would work. Age should not matter on Wikipedia. I'm in favour for a three month AfC ban. I think it would be better for you to gear up and study. Don't trip on the final hurdle, AK! AK's a good chap, but all good chaps start out as bungling ones. With some time, this mess will be cleaned up and everything's good again. Cheers, ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:23, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support 3 month - 6 months seems extreme in this case. Seems like 3 would be plenty of time to get up to speed. We can always revisit it then. Sergecross73 msg me 13:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I will, very gladly, take the 3 months voluntary AfC ban, complete with AfC adoption. Case closed. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 13:52, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, AK, but that option is off the table. The community is discussing whether you will have a 3-month or 6 month (or possibly indefinite) community-enforced topic ban from NPP and AFC's ... you do not get to unilaterally choose something different - especially when you had that option long long long ago (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:04, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

@Bwilkins: ??? They were asking me to volunteer for a 3-month or 6-month, so of course, I volunteered, after understanding that it would benefit Wikipedia. I don't see anywhere above talking about indef, but I actually don't see why it's needed, considering this is the first time, and I have good intentions. That leads to assuming good faith (as always). But anyway, an NPP ban would be almost redundant, as I only do NP patrol like, once every many many weeks or usually, months, although my userpage states that I'm on NP patrol. Most of the time, I do rvv, if you did look at my contribs. Cheers. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) BWilkins, I was going to say something like this too, but I'm not sure if AK truly meant that he was doing a "voluntary ban", or just meant that they "voluntarily submit to a formal topic ban". If it was the latter, then we're fine; that may have just been a confusingly worded way of saying he concedes to the topic ban. (This seems to be the case based on his post that EC's with this one.) Sergecross73 msg me 14:11, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: I'm puzzled by what you mean. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:18, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Let me try to simplify: You don't decide how long your ban will be. (Sorry) We (the folks here) decide. You can accept it willingly or unwillingly, either way you will serve what we want you to serve. Understood? Cheers, ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 14:20, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

"Voluntary" bans are strictly up to you, in theory, its all up to you to uphold. "Topic bans" are actually enforced, and you'd probably get reprimanded and blocked if you decide to go against them. Based on your wording, I guess we're not sure exactly which one you're agreeing to. Agreeing to a topic ban would end the discussion. Agreeing to the voluntary ban...wouldn't really mean anything at this point, with so many people supporting a topic ban. Sergecross73 msg me 14:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm volunteering, actually. Sorry for my confusing wording. If I ever try to/do break my voluntary ban, please slap me with 1000 whales and trouts, give me a huge scolding, and vandalise my block log for a duration of your choice. But two condition though, let me participate if there are further discussion on the current drive's page, and respond to any fails that I don't understand. Thereafter, I will shut myself totally from AfC until 24 October. Cheers. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:33, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Well then, as others said, volunteering for a voluntary ban is pointless this far into the process. That's like "turning yourself in when you're already in the courtroom". (Sorry, its a pretty common tactic for people around here to quickly say they'll do it voluntarily just to avoid formal sanctions.) Sergecross73 msg me 14:56, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• AK: As already stated, you are long past the opportunity to self-impose a "voluntary topic ban" - consensus above is that a "topic ban" is required. You have no choice anymore. You can stop this discussion right now by stating "I accept the 6 month topic ban from NPP and AFC". Any violation of the topic ban (that is very clearly the consensus above), will lead to an immediate block, and then future blocks of an escalating nature. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:05, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose any topic ban modified by the word 'voluntary' (implying that AK gets to choose whether and when it ends). Support topic ban of 6 months from AfC (and obviously any shorter ban as a second preference.) Sorry, but this negotiation process is not how we do bans. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 14:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Topic Ban for 6 months - voluntarily or not doesn't matter until he keeps his hands away from it and takes time to learn.  A m i t  웃   16:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support six month AfC and NPP topic ban. From what I've seen of (and about) Arctic Kangaroo both on commons and on here I have serious reservations about their work. They seem to think they can get out of things, and have things their way with complete disregard for policy and procedures (as seen here, here, and here one this thread and here at commons). Their whole attitude both here and at commons is quite unusual, trying to both claim competence and understanding (here) while claim 'I didn't know' other times and in the end claiming here and at commons that they don't understand (here), in what I assume is a last ditched attempt to get their own way. I feel it in the best interests of both Arctic Kangaroo and the project that a six month ban be enforced. I would however ask if there were someway that Arctic Kangaroo could review AfC articles, but through a supervising user? ie, Arctic Kangaroo looks at an AfC candidate, and writes up a review, proposals etc and send that to a supervising user who reviews their (Arctic Kangaroo's) review and then moves to the AfC candidates entry. This way Arctic Kangaroo could continue to contribute, but not directly (so as to limit potential harm) this could also be a way of providing valuable feedback, increasing Arctic Kangaroo's knowledge and competence. I do have two questions which I would like Arctic Kangaroo to answer though: Do you recognise that the way you reviewed AfC candidates was problematic, and that you have things to learn and improve on before you can go back to AfC? AND Do you completely understand the nature of licensing that is applied to all work across WFP projects (Wikipedia, Commons, etc), and can you - in your own words - explain it? (if these questions are out of line, I request an admin either strikethrough or redact them) Liamdavies (talk) 16:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• I just noticed that GS still keeping AK’s works in his Flickr stream, attributing to AK; neglecting his repeated request to either remove them or remove the attribution. Removal may a matter of courtesy and ethics; but I believe AK has full rights to ask for removing the attribution per [8]: “That said, CC licenses do provide several mechanisms that allow licensors and authors to choose not to be associated with their works or uses with which they disagree. First, all CC licenses prohibit using the attribution requirement to suggest that the original author or licensor endorses or supports a particular use of a work. This "No Endorsement" provision protects reputation, and its violation constitutes a violation of the license and results in automatic termination. Second, licensors may waive the attribution requirement -- choose not to be identified as the author or licensor of the work -- if they wish. Third, if a work is modified or incorporated into a collection, and the original author or licensor does not like the how the work has been modified or used in the collection, CC licenses require that the person modifying the work or incorporating the work into a collection remove reference to the original author or licensor upon notice. Finally, if the selected CC license permits modifications and adaptations of the original work, then the person modifying the work must indicate that the original has been modified. This ensures that changes made to the original work -- whether or not acceptable to the original author or licensor -- are not attributed back to the licensor.” JKadavoor Jee 03:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Attribution must be kept. But of course, it's better to delete the image. I have also placed a nice note explaining the steps I hope to take to make the decision I find best here, but the unreasonable guy is still talking crap. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 13:51, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
    • As you are teetering on the edge of a 6-month topic ban here AK, it might be better if you demonstrated a more level-headed editing style than this. I'd suggest that you strike this as an intemperate mistake, or at the very least that you think more carefully in future before you give your opponents more ammunition. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 13:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
      • I'm not striking that, but I'll try to control the blowing during this period. RL is making me fed up enough already, and Geo Swan just makes it get better. Can sometimes be hard to control, though. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:06, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• On User talk:Jkadavoor I said I would remove attribution to AK -- if he requested I do so. I don't believe he has made this request. If AK simultaneously requested commons also remove attribution I presume an OTRS ticket could be initiated for those who have a legitimate need to inquire.

I don't think it is on-topic here to discuss whether I have an ethical obligation to remove the flickr copies of these properly licensed images. I've encouraged Jkavadoor to explain his or her reasoning via talk page. I'll encourage anyone else with an opinion to explain it to me on Commons:User talk:Geo Swan. Geo Swan (talk) 15:08, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support six months AfC topic ban. Although he's been editing for about a year, 99% of his contributions are vandalism reverts. I think he lacks sufficient understanding of the more complex content policy issues to patrol others' work. Some of the articles he declined are rather complex as they require an evaluation via WP:ACADEMIC criteria, but in other cases he simply said that generally reliable sources, like the New York Times etc., are unreliable. In general, one should not stomp on articles he understands little about. It should be understood that more serial mistakes after the topic ban expires would result in an indefinite topic ban. Hopefully he'll use this time to contribute some new content as well, and in the process become more familiar with content policies. There are also problems with this vandalism patrol as well, e.g. [9] is not vandalism; they did have a loss that big for 2012 per [10]. Someone not using his real name (talk) 15:11, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) I actually don't find it nice to talk about the wrong revert, considering the fact that that was almost 5 months ago. 5 months can help us make lots of improvements. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 15:47, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support a 6 month topic ban. I hope that AK spends the time at AfD, learning the fine points of Wikipedia's notability doctrine. Read that every day with open eyes and an open mind, especially the closer rationales. Offer your opinions when you bump into articles you feel strongly about one way or another. Improper declines at AFC are a big problem; once a person truly understands notability doctrine that shouldn't be an issue. Carrite (talk) 16:18, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support 3 month AfC topic ban if he refuses to self-impose a topic ban. Also, I would like to note that Category:Submissions by Doncram ready for review is not technically part of AfC as a result of this discussion at the AfC wikiproject, and I personally have no problem with him accepting/declining those with guidance from a mentor. Which, as I originally mentioned way up above, I support him taking part in an Adoption and going through the AfC Mentoring program (when it is completed that he has already signed up for). Technical 13 (talk) 02:30, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - I have come across several of Arctic Kangaroo's later reviews when the articles were resubmitted, and I must say that he has been improving with experience, and taking time to leave specific messages for the article creators. It's quite likely that if he comes back to the Afc later on his reviews will be more acceptable. —Anne Delong (talk) 15:30, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support a 3 month ban from AfC and NPP, Oppose a 6 month ban per Demiurge. As shown below, this user has been following incorrect advice which is not his fault. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 23:03, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• . Thine Antique Pen, how that specific problem with Commons has something to do with his conduct at AfC and NPP? Unrelated issues. Cavarrone 08:02, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• The problem is that AK was given incorrect advice on copyright, something that should be checked for in AfC and NPP. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 09:57, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry Thine Antique Pen, surely AK's wrong assuptions about copyright were/are a problem, but that's not "THE problem", at least not the main problem we are discussing here. I don't see any evidence that they have a significant weight on his lack of competence and on the bad reviews he made at AfC. They are, at best, an additional problem of competence, even if justified by a bad advice he received. But I don't see how this helps his position on the AfC issue. Cavarrone 10:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support a three month ban Bedrieger (talk) 01:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support a three month ban... with mentoring and close monitoring afterwards. He's extremely receptive to criticism (see my comments on User talk:Arctic Kangaroo/Archive 5), but he's a bit, shall we say, headstrong. WP:COMPETENCE has been mentioned to death, but it's very relevant here. My mentoring program should be (I've been really busy, sorry) completed in three months. The AfC community has been very helpful in this. Thanks, theonesean 04:10, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Can somebody please throw the topic ban at me and close this discussion ASAP? I don't wish to be kept waiting; this thread has been inactive for more than 36 hours and I have other things to settle at other parts of Wikipedia. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I would be willing to close this and would judge the consensus to be a 3-month topic ban on AK from making decisions at AfC. However I expressed an opinion above and would much prefer a non-involved admin to do the closing (and I may of course have misread the consensus.) So if another admin sees this, please do the decent thing. I will close in 12 hours time or so, if it hasn't been done and if nobody objects. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 17:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: Relevant conversations here where AK emailed Jimbo and Jimbo has "asked Wikimedia Legal to comment on the issue" and here on commons where AK was indeff'd for carrying out a disruption threat. Rgrds. --64.85.214.168 (talk) 20:59, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

The issue with the Commons image(s) is basically orthogonal to his competence at AfC on en.wikipedia. Please post in the relevant section. Someone not using his real name (talk) 04:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Copyright and incapacitation due to minority

Broadly speaking, a person not of the age of majority in the US cannot be legally bound to contractual obligations. Does this not apply to WP's terms of use, specifically: releasing their contributions as per our CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL? This user has a) declared their minority and b) questioned how they can be held responsible for "these copyright and law stuff". WP:COMPETENCE may be applicable, as well may be a block (until their minority has elapsed) so as to protect the foundation from potential exposure and also to protect a young editor. Rgrds. --64.85.216.104 (talk) 14:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

We have several editors who are under the age of majority in their respective countries. If that were a legal concern, WMF's general counsel would have brought that to our attention. I'm not a lawyer, and I wouldn't be WMF's lawyer if I were, so I try to leave the legal stuff up to the people who are experts in it and get paid to do that. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

There was a discussion sometime back about underage editors in the village pump to be allowed to use WP and access especially the so called adult content. Most of us opposed. But in this instance for an editor who shows intentions to ignore the rules and legal contracts should be an issue especially when they themselves claim being underage as one of the loopholes. At the same time the above about putting a block on him because he is underage is going to discourage a lot of underage editors in WP, also how do we identify without an outing that when his block should lapse? A m i t  웃   16:42, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

They have said they're under 16/18. I could say I am an admin, or Foundation staff; That doesn't make me one. Also, there is some doubt about their age at the file deletion page on Commons. I feel that we just can't tell about this, unless we make everyone to identify to WMF. Mdann52 (talk) 17:24, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Amit, I think most people who favor a ban favor it not due to AK's claim to be a minor, but due to an unwillingness or inability to contribute in a responsible, civil, competent manner. Adults who can't contribute responsibly, who can't contribute civilly, or who can't contribute competently may also face preventative blocks or bans. Geo Swan (talk) 18:11, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

  I agree and for the same reason you can see my already existing support vote for the 6 month block in the above section irrespective of his age. I do raise the outing question and made the point about discouraging underage editors in my earlier point which i meant to put in as i am not trying to favor nor oppose any action based on age.  A m i t  웃   18:52, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The challenge here is that AK seems to have claimed that because of their age, they were not old enough to be able grant the license they did for their images, and as such, they original grant should have been cancelled. That's problematic (✉→BWilkins←✎) 18:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• IANAL, but I think if a case like this ever made it to court, the judge would rule that by letting him use the camera, and then letting hims use WMF sites where individual released images and intelledtual content under a creative commons license, his parents had authorized him to upload those images, and click save when he drafted new material.

  Until he takes steps to confirm he is a minor, through OTRS, I suggest we act as if AK is legally competent to surrender intellectual property rights through a CC license. Geo Swan (talk) 20:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Your obsession with "winning" this war over this image, however important an image it may be, is unseemly. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:55, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm reasonably certain a minor can hold a copyright. If there were issues with a minor disposing of (i.e., agreeing to license) such a copyright, I would imagine that would have been brought up by WMF legal counsel by now.

Regardless, however, a refusal to agree to the licensing terms is incompatible with editing any Wikimedia project, and we've normally revoked the editing privileges of any editor who's tried. While this incident occurred on Commons, rather than here, I'm troubled that it took place. I'm not certain AK should be editing until (s)he clearly indicates understanding of and willingness to follow the irrevocable CC-BY-SA licensing terms. That's true whether an editor is 15 or 50. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:52, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually WMF have already commented on that eventuality, so your being unaware of that suggests that you shouldn't be commenting until you're up to speed on the realities. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:53, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Well, if the WMF have already commented, and you know where to find that comment, would you please link to the pertinent comment? Thanks! Geo Swan (talk) 15:16, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yep, I'll dig that out for you. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• I would assume that minors are able to retain and also release copyright. Otherwise, it brings to question almost everything a minor is involved in on the internet, including DeviantArt, Facebook, and anywhere else that involves both a release of copyright and a contractual retaining of copyright. And those places do allow minors to be a member, so I would assume that such a thing is allowed. Though it's possible that copyright for minors is something the law leaves as a gray area until it becomes an issue due to a lawsuit. Is anyone aware on what the law, at least in the US, is regarding copyright for minors? Silverseren^C 23:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

  Can a minor claim copyright? Short answer: Yes, but state laws may regulate related business dealings. alanyst 23:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

  So, in short, it's complicated, huh? I hate it when that happens. Though, Wikipedia-related copyright isn't a business dealing, is it? So there shouldn't be a problem? Silverseren^C 23:45, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

  I wouldn't read too much into that short phrase. Just because it doesn't mention state laws regulating non-business dealings (such as a minor releasing their writings and images under a free copyright license without being paid for it) doesn't mean there aren't any such laws. --Avenue (talk) 08:44, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  Can a minor claim copyright? Yes; probably. But can a consent of a person below Age of consent to grant/give-away his rights can be considered as a valid consent? No; probably. JKadavoor Jee 14:27, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  I think you might have meant to link to age of majority, not age of consent. --Avenue (talk) 20:48, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Two conflated issues, I think. Contracts with minors are voidable. However, a contract must have several things in it to be such, and one is consideration. Because there is none here, there is no contract issue. A person neither gains nor loses anything by uploading media to WP, because rights aren't assigned (AFAIK, CC-BY-SA doesn't prevent the uploader from continuing to use the file). Second issue is copyright; any person can assert copyright regardless of age, but it would seem to me that by uploading media to WP that he does not wish anyone else to use, AK is using WP as a webhost, and is thus not conforming to the file upload licensing policies. MSJapan (talk) 00:51, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
  • As has been pointed out elsewhere, copyright licences are not contracts, so contract law is irrelevant. Let's leave it for the legal team to determine whether the CC licence is legal. What is a contract, though, is everyone's agreement to the bit above the "Save page" button. Colin°^Talk 07:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Arctic Kangaroo was following erroneous advice he was given

In April 2013, as part of a formal WP:ADOPTION process, Arctic Kangaroo, obviously confused about copyright of images, asked this:

"Umm...if I have a photo which I have taken myself, and I want to upload it, but just uploading it to help Wikipedia, but don't want others to use the work, then can I list it "non-free" or place a "<copyright sign> Arctic Kangaroo" on the picture?"

In reply he was told this:

"You could do the latter of those, but not the former because that requires it to be used, and just a notice asking for no usage would work. It is unlikely anybody will want to use right away anyway, especially if its not something that requires further illustration."

He was still uncertain, so he expanded on his question further:

"Could you explain further what you mean by "just a notice asking for no usage would work"? Because I don't really get what you mean."

In reply he was told this:

"Just write a sign that asks people not to use it."

So AK made clear he wanted to upload photographs without other people using them elsewhere, he was told that this was possible (or that probably no-one would want to use his photographs anyway), and he was told that he could retain more rights over his photographs than is actually the case. And he followed this advice.

I'm not saying AK's attitude has been acceptable here, but it seems to me that half the problems he has are caused not by "lack of competence", on his part, but in fact by problems with two WikiProjects - first, the WP:AFC project which is giving out its biggest shiniest award to someone who hammers the decline button on submissions without giving it enough thought and without replying to most of the queries about it on their talkpage, and second the WP:ADOPTION wikiproject which has given a kid who was already confused about copyright, the wrong information that has led him into exactly this mess.

This is not his fault. It's our fault. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

As the coordinator of the drive, I want to make something clear - per the rules of the drive, AK is not in the lead. Every review that is reviewed as a fail does not count - and in fact takes points off. Also, on the adoption page, the user in question makes it clear that CC makes the work free - and says nothing about releasing the images under the licence in question. Mdann52 (talk) 17:45, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Well the leaderboard currently shows "1 - Arctic Kangaroo - 808 - CRM.png and Goldenwiki 2.png". As for the adoption page, I'm not sure I completely follow what you're suggesting, and I don't think an inexperienced editor should be expected to follow it from the answers provided either. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• That is interesting. Note, while his mentor seems to have given AK incorrect advice, AK didn't "write a sign that asks people not to use it." So, I suggest it is quite incorrect to assert he got into trouble because he "followed this advice".

AK was being mentored, this question could have been thoroughly theoretical -- not a reflection that he didnt' want his images to be re-used when he released them under a free license. This would explain why he didn't place the note his mentor described, when he released them.

I suggest the underlying lesson from his mentor's bad advice is the importance of vetting or monitoring those who volunteer for particularly important positions. Quality control is important -- too important to be undertaken by unvetted individuals who just aren't qualified. Similarly, the lesson of the bad advice which AK was given, is that those serving as mentors need to be vetted or monitored. I don't know AK's mentor, and I won't judge his or her competence on a single event. They are on a wikibreak, so we can't expect them to explain this advice here. Geo Swan (talk) 20:21, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes the question could have been "thoroughly theoretical" if it weren't for the fact that the chronology is quite clear - (1) AK asks if he can upload images that then won't be used elsewhere, (2) he's told that probably no-one will be much interested in using it elsewhere anyway, (3) he uploads a rather fine image, (4) it gets used elsewhere, (5) he seems unhappy with this.

About the need for greater vetting or monitoring of those in quality control or mentoring positions, we are in agreement. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I echo the above arguments, as I said in the main discussion, these roles (mentor, AfC reviewer) are too sensitive to be left free from every rule and every supervision. They are the entrance doors of WP, they should be assigned to persons of the highest competence. I think there should be some selective mechanism to avoid any incident and any bad judgement. Cavarrone 06:42, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

So now that AK knows the correct policy is he backing off? he still seems to claim commoners are being illogical? Obviously this new information changes my vote above to Neutral.  A m i t  웃   14:19, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

One could happily pass of the assertion that Commons has problems to Jimbo. (The two have corresponded by email anyway.) Jimbo appears to be much more widely informed about Commons than AK, even if AK is fast learning the things about the current state of Commons that Jimbo already learned. I don't see that it has much to do with AK any more. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:38, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• WRT Mr Wales's correspondence with AK -- he has gone on record that, after his private correspondence, that he is convinced AK is a genuine minor. I hope Mr Wales didn't intend his personal determination to replace OTRS confirming or refuting AK declaration. Perhaps every single one of us would agree with Mr Wales, if we could see that private correspondence. But it is private, and Mr Wales shouldn't share it.

We have an OTRS team. This kind of determination is their job, and, if we rely on them to make the determination, all their correspondence will be logged, on the ticket. It will be available 24x7 if new events crop up, and require reviewing the earlier determination. Presumably OTRS tickets are professionally backed up. Presumably, OTRS team members will explicitly record the reasoning behind the determinations they make. An additional reason I would encourage Mr Wales to leave this determination to the OTRS team is that I think it isn't good for their morale for him to do their job. Geo Swan (talk) 20:33, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Not really. Such matters only fall under Office_actions: “The most common complaints are defamation, privacy violations or copyright infringement.” I think the privacy of a youngster has high priority for WMF; so his action to forward it to WMF Office is very genuine and wise. OTRS is only for mere routine jobs (“The main use of OTRS in relation to Commons is to verify and archive licensing permissions.”) It is not for finding and recording somebody’s real age. JKadavoor Jee 03:03, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Geo Swan, I strongly advise you to recuse yourself from this discussion. You actions throughout this issue (esp. the Flickr upload) have been unacceptable and just inflame the issue. I concur with Jkadavoor on the unsuitability of OTRS for this job. If there are legal issues, the WMF should sort them out. Not a bunch of internet volunteers. Colin°^Talk 07:42, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:FOUR dispute

Hi, I'm coming here from a dispute on the Four Award talk page, primarily located at Wikipedia talk:Four Award#Removing name and articles from WP:FOUR and partially here. Could an administrator please assess the consensus in the first discussion and take appropriate action, possibly including removing articles from the records list? I tried to act based on the comments there, but receiving vandalism templates on my talk page is getting rather old. (pinging User:TonyTheTiger, please let me know if I should ping more) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 23:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec)Note that as project Director, I exercised my authority to maintain the records of the project. You are free to decline an award, but not free to change the recorded history of an award, even for something like the Golden Raspberry Awards where everyone would want to remove their name from the historical records people are allowed to decline but not change the history of the award. It is not a matter of consensus in terms of record keeping. The historical records are what they are. I have agreed to use placeholders to maintain the historical record for declined awards.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:41, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I thought that Tony, the director of that project, had determined he was not to be swayed by consensus:

MY DECISION IS FINAL in the sense that I am no longer commenting on this thread. I am not opening up FOUR to a special MILHIST style collaboration. I don't want to wake up and see all of the battleships, Airplane models, famous battles, and notable military leaders known to man listed here because I allowed MILHIST to dictate what a collaboration is. You are free to pervert the rule as I have posted it.[11]

There would be no problem with people removing their entries if Tony accepted jointly created article collaborations. Binksternet (talk) 23:36, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

As I have stated, for several reasons, I am not expanding collaboration eligibility for userspace/sandbox creations any further than those for article space. The award has gotten watered down many ways since its creation and we are getting to the last straw. Now (the last 4 years) nearly one award is issued for every 5 new FAs.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:46, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Tony, you describe it as a bad thing that the award is being given out more often now than when it first started. I say "so what?" Lots of awards means lots of happy contributors. The wiki benefits from people being motivated, and what I see here is you becoming a demotivator, which is, I'm sure, not what you intended. So don't change your purpose, don't start discouraging people! Collaboration ought to be held in high regard, as exemplary activity. [[User:Binkster{{net|Binksternet]] (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I am not familiar with WP:FOUR, is this Tony the Tiger's private province? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:55, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Tony has been highly active, but its not his "private province". The page was started by Thomas Bat four years ago (diff) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:01, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, he didn't start it, yes—but he appears to have granted himself the title of director and unlimited oversight over it. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 00:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• I would also like to point out that, during the course of this dispute, Tony has displayed a striking lack of good faith towards people with views which contradict his own. Snark about a user's name, painting all Milhist members (even barely active ones) with the same brush, saying those against him are perverting the rules... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • In fairness, Crisco, that first one is fair game. Drmies (talk) 02:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Looking at the history of Wikipedia:Four Award/Records, Tony the Tiger has already reverted attempts for editors to remove their names from the list 4 times in the past 24 hours [12] [13] [14] [15], which I believe would be a violation of WP:3RR. FunPika 00:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Make that five now, with his latest revert (1). I'm WP:INVOLVED, so I won't do the blocking. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Fully agree. Tony knows far better than that. He can peruse the list for 48 hours (✉→BWilkins←✎) 00:40, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Request for explanation Binksternet (talk · contribs) has taken action to eliminate the possibility of a collaboration. He is not an administrator. Is this the resolution here to resolve the dispute by making it moot.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:38, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Tony, you declared yourself to be the director of FOUR. You declared that collaborations would not be accepted. I merely corrected and simplified the otherwise misleading text in the FAQ and in the rules, to say collaborations were not part of FOUR. You had placed some byzantine text which said that collaborations may be accepted in very unusual and unlikely cases. In practice this description was not followed; rather, collaborations were not allowed by you. In light of this declaration I felt that people should have the rules stated simply. Binksternet (talk) 00:45, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Agree fully with Binksternet. If a self-declared director is ensuring that there is no chance for a collaboration to pass, despite consensus to the contrary, the rules should not offer false hope. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:50, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Just trying to understand why WP:OWN doesn't come into play in these circumstances and how can some one attribute ownership for something already present in Wiki though it is not an article but more like a process here but still same rules apply - No??  A m i t  웃   14:07, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • My concern as well. Do we have self-appointed "directors" of projects now? Should we expect T the T to begin to annex other related projects and pages into his directorship? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:57, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• I'm struggling to see the logic of Tony in forcing people to be part of this, when they simply don't want to be. Not sure exactly how many things that is violating, but WP:OWN and WP:IDHT are definitely being violated. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:08, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Article creation

• I've been dealing with TonyTheTiger on somewhat unrelated matters for the past week. He initiates articles on individual works of art. He admits to not being particularly knowledgeable in this area. He solicits help in writing these articles. (I would call it a kind of Wikipedia outsourcing.) He attempts to promote these articles to Featured article status (I'm fairly ignorant of "featured article status".) These articles tend to be riddled with problems. These articles stray from scope, sometimes in not good ways. These articles are what I would call "everything including the kitchen sink" articles. Quantity seems to be equated with quality. Overblown language is sometimes preferred to plain language. I have a particular interest in articles on individual works of visual art. I object to his churning out articles that misinform about works of art. Speaking to him has been futile. For a sampling of some of what I'm talking about, look at this page and some of the pages it links to. I would not mind TonyTheTiger's involvement in this area if he seemed to be genuinely concerned with the quality of the article. Unfortunately I don't see that as being the case at this time. Bus stop (talk) 00:21, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I had similar concerns with Drowning Girl, though not being familiar with the subject area I could not find any possible misrepresentation. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:08, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Bus Stop is not the only editor to voice concerns with the quality of the article he linked to, but I want to make clear what he means by "Wikipedia outsourcing": what he means is that Tony brought the article to WP:Peer Review, which I think all those who have contributed to this thread recognize as not only a normal, but encouraged part of the process of bringing an article up to FA quality. Also, I hope what Bus Stop means by "the kitchen sink" is not the content that is currently under dispute... Curly Turkey (gobble) 13:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
    • This dispute at FOUR doesn't seem to be related to Whaam! or the artist. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 17:21, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

This too is what I'm dealing with. I ask TonyTheTiger here to please not post in the middle of my posts. What is his response? More of the same: [16], [17], [18], [19], [20]. Bus stop (talk) 05:11, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Unresolved issue...

Original here, and the behavior is continuing: [21],[22],[23], [24],[25]. MSJapan (talk) 18:54, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I would recommend a block for this user in question. Please do inform the user about this ANI too.  A m i t  웃   15:46, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

As it was the last post I made on his talk, and this is ongoing with no response from him, I assumed the original notice was valid, but I will renotify. MSJapan (talk) 18:08, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

As I am now at a location with internet access, I am responding now. The categories which I have created were never intended for the purposes of attack. They are simply meant to show that every profession, religion, and institution has had members who have failed to live up to the standards of common decency. This is every bit as important a part of the history of these professions, religions, and institutions as the positive work which each of them has done. Should you desire to remove articles from the categories which are not sourced within the article text, I have no objection. I also would have no objection if you were to create a sister category about Knights of Columbus with criminal or even political convictions. I would advise you, however, against jumping to conclusions about my motivations or presuming that I cannot prove what I write if the need arises. Personally, I think you are going on a fishing expedition in order to save a certain institution from bad press. Ironically, one of the reasons why I created Category:Freemasons with criminal convictions is because certain conspiracy theorists whom I know have attempted to persuade me that the Masonic Fraternity never allows its own to be convicted of anything. This I know to be preposterous. I desired only to prove it to those who do not wish to believe.Kingstowngalway (talk) 00:44, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:CATEGORY says "The central goal of the category system is to provide navigational links to all Wikipedia pages...which readers, knowing essential—defining—characteristics of a topic, can browse...topics that are defined by those characteristics." The categories you have created (such as Freemasons with criminal convictions and the various police misconduct cats) are not dealing with defining characteristics; they are dealing with trivial intersection in the former case, and subjective misapplication in the latter. That the Freemason criminal cats were created to "prove something" (your words) is a violation of WP:POINT. This is also not a case of "no Internet" - you have plenty of edits over the last few days, and when the initial ANI was filed, rather than respond here, you appealed to another user instead, after which that user attempted to intervene on your behalf. MSJapan (talk) 01:36, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Whether or not the categories are legitimate is a separate question that this is not the right place to discuss. The discussion has already started somewhere else. The simple fact is that MSJapan is once again using WP:ANI to intimidate anyone who does not share his, erm, eccentric and ahistorical views of Freemasonry. Kingstongalway is a blameless editor who had no intention of creating attack categories - as shown by his behaviour when creating the categories (he was at the time creating a number of categories of criminals by occupational group including Catholic priests and policemen). He is also, unlike MSJapan, not a disruptive user as shown by the fact that he has only been on one ANI archive while MSJapan has been on 138 ANI archive pages - that's 17% of the total. Any disciplinary action against Kingstowngalway would be a triumph for the bullying and gameplaying of MSJapan, who really needs a good dose of discipline himself. JASpencer (talk) 10:40, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

If I have chosen over the years not to respond to statements on my talkpage, it is because I choose to let source citations speak for me. If you had really examined my history as meticulously as you say, you would have taken notice of this. When something I have written is challenged, I search out as much info as I am able to find. If I realize that my original source was mistaken, I simply do not challenge changes to what I have written. The articles which you have altered I have either added source citations or allowed your edits to stand. Kingstowngalway (talk) 16

54, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry but I regularly comment on ANI - doesn't mean that I lose my right to report on ANI. So commenting on that aspect is senseless here unless you could provide diff's to say the ANI is always for bullying.  A m i t  웃   14:26, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no BOOMERANG here - I found an issue of recent editing contrary to policy in my editing area, did some digging, and found the same in multiple unrelated areas over a much longer period of time. This establishes a pattern of behavior detrimental to the encyclopedia, including widespread miscategorization of articles related to his own mass creation of categories, a general lack of sourcing of additions to the encyclopedia, and a BLP violation. I have provided diffs to support my aasertions. The user in question has displayed an unwillingness to communicate previously and has demonstrated through conduct a lack of understanding/awareness of the problem. Lack of knowledge of policy does not excuse one from being bound by it, and lack of knowledge should not even be an issue for a longtime editor. Given what I located in the short term, coupled with similar notices on the user's talk page going back to 2008 (and a total lack of response by the user to those issues over that same period of time), I am concerned that this may in fact be a years-long problem that is outside my scope as an individual to address. That is why I brought the issue here. MSJapan (talk) 14:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Your POV editing around this area and systematic bullying of editors who get in your way is a far more serious years long problem, as shown by your attempt to block an editor who had never previously darketned the door of ANI (or been blocked. JASpencer (talk) 18:43, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I hadn't asked for a remedy at all, which is a good point, so thanks for reminding me, and here it is: I would like to request an editing restriction on category creation and complete nontolerance for adding unsourced material for Kingstowngalway. MSJapan (talk) 13:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Could there be a restriction on MSJapan posting in ANI and other admin pages. In the UK it's called wasting police time amd the US it's vexatious litigation. 138 ANI archive pages with MSJapan is unhealthy in a grown man (particularly one so unsuited for Admin status) and really should be discouraged. This is a bogus complaint only intended as a bullying tactic and is part of a continuing pattern of willfully disruptive behaviour towards editors who disagree with him. It's mildly amusing (and far less frequent) when it's done to an editor experienced with his ways who just bites back, but when it's an editor who's never been banned and probably never even heard of ANI - as in the case here - it's actually quite distressing. Kingstongalway's crime is trying to build an encyclopedia without realising that he was stepping into one of the taboos (the link between English and American Freemasonry and corruption) of a Masonic group who are admitedly less influential than they were, but are all the more vicious for it. My recomendation is to close this and send MSJapan away with a flea in his ear. JASpencer (talk) 22:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

And as an example of the disruptive behaviour from MSJapan he kindly left an example as I was typing the above [26]. This is pretty typical of his MO which is to try to tie down inconvenient other editors with things such as deletion nominations. JASpencer (talk) 22:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Move to close discussion, with perhaps a warning to MSJapan to not misuse noticeboards in this way again. There may or may not be creditable grounds for such categorization/discussion. That is a separate issue, best resolved in the appropriate venue, which this is not. I myself agree that there is, perhaps, a not unreasonable question regarding the appropriateness of categorizing someone regarding whether they lived up to standards. I would not myself want to see every Christian who may have rather obviously violated generic Christian moral standards, like maybe being involved in the creation of an out-of-wedlock child, in Category:Moral reprobates, Category:Christians condemned to hell for their disgusting lack of morals, or the equivalent. There has been similar discussion in the past regarding Martin Luther King, Jr., who is included in the Anglican liturgical calendar as, maybe, a "saint", and whose article has been tagged by WikiProject Saints on that basis, despite some perhaps moral issues. But this is not the appropriate way to deal with such matters. I would suggest a better, and more productive, way of dealing with the matter would be to start an RfC and invite input from not only those involved in Freemasonry, but any other WikiProjects which deal with groups with stated standards of behavior, and also leave messages on any relevant policy or guideline pages with relate to content dealing with organizations, members of organizations, and the like, including BLP. John Carter (talk) 18:09, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Morgellons and Talk:Morgellons

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

For the past couple of months or so we have had continuous problems at Morgellons and Talk:Morgellons. Most of these problems have been caused by tenditious editing by two users, User:Drgao and to a lesser extent, User:Erythema. They have repeatedly attempted to add low quality primary fringe studies to this medical article rather than secondary sources. There are numerous examples on the talk page, including this one [27] which is now in the archives (which, as an aside, gives a good indication of how long this has gone on). Many of us have explained WP:MEDRS and countless other policies to both of them, to no avail. Drgao has been asked, on his talk page to avoid personal attacks, to avoid commenting on editors and instead to comment on content, again to no avail [28]. Finally, User:Zad68 took the issue to WP:DRN [[29]. A clear decision was reached at DRN and the sources were deemed inappropriate. However, yesterday Drgao took these same sources to WP:RSN [30]. When this was done Drgao did not inform other parties to the DRN process that (s)he was doing this, so Zad68 let others know. Drgao then complained that Zad68 was stalking him/her and continued beating the dead horse of these unreliable sources [31]. I am asking that both Drgao and Erythema be topic banned from Morgellons and related articles. Thanks. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:19, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Dbrodbeck is grossly misrepresenting the situation here. I was entitled to submit my inquiry to the WP:RSN page, because as far as I understand, the sources in question were only deemed unreliable by the DRN for the Morgellons article, but not deemed unreliable in general. Therefore, since I was considering using these sources in other Wikipedia articles, I wanted to get an opinion on their general reliability.

So Dbrodbeck is grossly misrepresents the situation when he says I was "beating the dead horse of these unreliable sources". My WP:RSN inquiry was legitimate. And since my intention was to use these sources in unrelated articles, there would be no particular requirement to inform the editors at the Morgellons article. Furthermore, since I have found these editors to be quite adversarial towards my suggestions, I was hoping to leave these people behind, but to no avail. In fact, their group presence at my WP:RSN inquiry only served to derail that inquiry. I suggest that they need not have derailed that inquiry, and could have helped me instead, but they chose not to.

Dbrodbeck and other editors at the Morgellons article have been less than helpful in my dealings with them. For example, these editors decided that certain peer-reviewed sources were unreliable, but they would not explain to me their decision process as to why these sources were unreliable, just telling me that only they are properly able to interpret Wikipedia guidelines, as if there is some black art to such interpretation, only known to a special few. I am fully familiar with Wikipedia guidelines, but apparently, according to these editors, there is a special way to interpret Wikipedia guidelines that I don't know, or am not privy to, but Dbrodbeck and other editors at the Morgellons article are privy to. Each time I asked these editors to clarify for me their decision process as to why these sources were unreliable, they failed to provide any explanation, other than saying that only they know how to interpret Wikipedia guidelines, and I don't. I found this behavior condescending. I also found it worrying that the process of determining whether a source is reliable is so open to interpretation, with these editors' interpretations being superior to mine (or so they told me).

Even in the DRN decision (which I am honor bound to comply with, and I do so comply), the sources were deemed unreliable, but without any details being given on the decision process. I do not contest the DRN decision, because I agreed to comply, and I keep to my word; but it does seem strange to me how editors can just decide that a source is unreliable, without quoting any specific Wikipedia guidelines on which the decision is based. My view is that more transparency in the decision process in determining reliable sources would be a good thing, and would help prevent disputes like this one. Disputes arise when editors say that "only we know how to interpret Wikipedia guidelines, but you do not". More transparency is required to prevent such condescending remarks and the disputes that ensue from them. Drgao (talk) 02:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

DEADHORSE, IDHT 198.199.134.100 (talk) 03:58, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

See this conversation Drgao (talk) 04:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indefinite topic ban, but on all medical articles, as an involved editor. This editor (Drgao) has been a huge time sink, and a distraction to multiple WP:MED editors from content creation through their tendentious WP:IDHT behavior. Despite multiple attempts by multiple editors, they have shown no understanding of the issues involved, specifically correct application of WP:MEDRS. As they have expressed a desire to use the same bad sources in other medical articles (just yesterday in their posting on WP:RSN), it is necessary to topic ban them from medical articles to stop the disruption until they can show an understanding of how our sourcing guidelines work, and can work collaboratively. Yobol (talk) 13:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban on all articles related to medicine for user:Drgao. This user have persistantly refused to abide by a wide range of WP policies, including WP:MEDRS, and this problematic behavior is likely to occur not only on articles directly related to Morgellons disease, but to any other topic related to medicine. The length and intensity of his attempts to introduced unrelaibly sourced material into the article, coupled with his persistant tendentious and disruptive editting and dead horse argumentation, make it reasonable to assume that this behavior will continue both on the Morgellons article and elsewhere. Yesterday, I warned user:Drgao several times myself about numerous violations of both our content and our sourcing policies and guidelines, as several other editors had regularly been also warning him for the same for the past two months. Administrator user:MastCell also told him that his "tendentiousness is becoming a major drain on the time and goodwill of other constructive editors" and that he would block him "for persistent tendentious and disruptive editing, in order to enable other editors to improve the article constructively and in an environment free of disruption." The editors responses indicated that he has numerous fundamental misunderstandings of what WP is and how it works, and has no intention of modifying his uncollaborative behavior, and indeed had plans on using unerliable sources in other articles as well. As such, he is incompetant to edit productively on any article where strict adherence to WP:MEDRS is expected. Would support a total community ban for this editor until he can reassure the community that he will edit in compliance with WP content and behavioral policies and guidelines. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 13:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• • Comment: reserving judgement on User:Erythema until I examine the evidence more fully. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Question. On what specific evidence is Dbrodbeck's suggested topic ban for User:Erythema based? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:09, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I think [32] and [33] as well as [34] and [35] show a lack of understanding of our medical article sourcing requirements. Dbrodbeck (talk) 14:29, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Erythema seems to have only made one post [36] since the dispute resolution process closed a week ago. While this post might well be seen as argumentative, I'd say that in of itself it wouldn't justify a block. I'd suggest that it might be best to give Erythema the benefit of the doubt, and rather than block, warn him/her that future conduct will be under close scrutiny, and that continuing as before isn't an option. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:42, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I would be fine with that. The caveat about future conduct is important. Dbrodbeck (talk) 14:44, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indef topic ban of Drgao (I am an involved editor). I think this version of the user's page illustrates a number of the problems, including this illustrative quote: OK, I will try to avoid ad hominem strikes, and battle only in the arena of the actual subject matter. [37]. -- Scray (talk) 14:39, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban for user:Drgao on all articles related to medicine. (I've been marginally involved) It seems self-evident that Drago is unwilling to accept the clear consensus over sources, and likewise unwilling to accept the broader principles regarding medical sourcing - his/her suggestion at WP:RSN that the rejected sources might be appropriately used elsewhere [38] is about as clear evidence of tendetiousness as one could get. Enough is enough. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:57, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Please see my comment above for why I thought my WP:RSN inquiry was legitimate. I understood that source reliability decisions only apply in the context of the article they were discussed in. So since I was considering using these sources in other articles, my WP:RSN inquiry should have been accepted and considered. Drgao (talk) 03:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indefinite block for both users. The Erythema account is abiding by the DRN resolution, but they're clearly a SPA and continue to demonstrate an inability to understand WP policies. The Drgao account is and will continue to be an enormous timesink and even continued to argue with the admin in RSN after being told that doing so would lead to a block; I just don't see a personality like that as being able to maintain a relationship with the WP community that enriches either the community or the user. I'm the IP user 198.199.134.100 posting from home; I usually edit from work. 69.23.116.182 (talk) 15:12, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban for Drgao, for all the reasons Dbrodbeck outlined above. This user has shown willful disregard for Wikipedia policies on sources, agreed to abide by arbitration and then violated that agreement, repeatedly engaged in personal attacks, and has asserted ownership rights on this article. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:54, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Neutral on block for Erythema. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:54, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indef WP:MEDICINE topic ban for Drgao (as involved editor) - this would include all articles in WP:MEDICINE scope, biomedical content in all other articles, and associated discussion on Talk pages. What was brought to light at the DRN discussion and the following discussion at Talk:Morgellons was Drgao's inability or unwillingness to understand and apply WP:MEDRS, the biomedical content sourcing guideline, in line with consensus. The DRN discussion listed twelve editors having from modest to extensive editing experience who were able to review the sources against the WP:MEDRS guideline and didn't have trouble all coming to the same conclusion about them: they are not reliable for sourcing biomedical claims. TransporterMan was able to do the same thing without difficulty. At Drgao's RSN discussion, AndyTheGrump and Dominus Vobisdu didn't find a problem with it. Instead of pausing to consider that his/her own interpretation and application of WP:MEDRS might be problematic, Drgao continues to question whether it's everyone else who's got it wrong, demanding repeatedly that WP:MEDRS be explained again and again, despite that fact that Talk:Morgellons is full of hundreds of kilobytes of futile attempts by many different editors to explain it, with only WP:IDHT in response. Further tendentious editing is evidenced by Drgao's continuation of discussing the exact same thing that the DRN participants committed not to discuss after its conclusion - the WP:MEDRS fitness of the exact same sources - with a stated desire to use them in other articles. Because the issue is not with Morgellons in particular but with Drgao's understanding and acceptance of Wikipedia's biomedical sourcing guideline, the topic ban should be WP:MEDICINE-scope content. Regarding Erythema, there's not enough evidence to recommend a sanction at this time. Zad68 19:11, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Please see my comment above for why I thought my WP:RSN inquiry was legitimate. I understood that source reliability decisions only apply in the context of the article they were discussed in. So since I was considering using these sources in other articles, my WP:RSN inquiry should have been accepted and considered. Drgao (talk) 03:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Neutral I express no opinion either for or against the actions proposed here, but am available to answer any questions which any closer or administrator might wish to ask about the prior proceedings in which I was involved as a neutral party. (I may be mostly offline from about 22:00 UTC today through about 13:00 UTC on July 29, so if a quicker answer is needed, you might give me a heads up by email.) Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:36, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for Drgao. (No comment on Erythema.) When an editor responds to a consensus at RSN with the assertion that other editors are telling lies and are "just not honest enough" about Wikipedia's policies on reliable sourcing, it throws up a big red flag. It appears, based on the information above, that this is an ongoing, persistent, and otherwise intractable IDHT problem. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:49, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Drgao nor Erythema have done anything wrong. They simply have a more neutral opinion than the editors here who have ganged up on them. Sierraparis (talk) 21:26, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Experienced editors who review the situation for the first time have unanimously agreed that Drgao and Erythema are in the wrong here.

Would it be possible to also seek similar corrective action for Sierraparis or does a new ANI report need to be opened? Problematic editor at Talk:Morgellons, SPA, IDHT, etc, etc. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 22:56, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Update: Sierraparis account just claimed to not be here to edit, but as a "neutral journalist". 198.199.134.100 (talk) 23:36, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

(involved admin) So, block Sierraparis per WP:NOTHERE? I don't think we're there yet, but, if he fails to rescind his comment that only editors who know Morgellons patients should edit, it should be considered. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:57, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

support (involved) medical top ban for Drgao (Btw, it looks like they've been involved in pushing the infectious etiology for conditions other than moregellons, and I don't know if the references are up to snuff their either). Erythema and Sierraparis haven't quite reached the threshold of tendentiousness required for a topic ban, but are rapidly heading in that direction, since neither seem to have any reason to be on wikipedia other than to argue that apparently all of wikipedia is biased against them. Sailsbystars (talk) 00:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I may be biased, but I think Drgao is doing a great job in improving the Morgellons article. Drgao (talk) 04:05, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite ban from medical articles, as use seems to be unable to comprehend or abide by WP:MEDRS. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 04:28, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• "OPPOSE" Drgao has much to contribute to the discussion of this article and there is no reason whatsoever for banning this editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sierraparis (talk • contribs) 04:58, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban for all three users. The disruption and IDHT needs to stop. I'd even support a community imposed indefinite ban. There seems to be an inability to understand our most important policies. While we're at it, User:Sierraparis and User:Erythema need to be included in the topic ban. They are indistinguishable from twins/clones of Drgao. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:53, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indefinite topic ban The distribution wastes a considerable amount of editor time, and the editor doesn't appear capable of getting the issues. This topic ban should not be lifted until the editor shows an understanding of policy, IRWolfie- (talk) 08:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indef topic ban I've checked the Morgellons talk page & it's last two archives and note that user:Drgao is displaying continual disruptive IDHT behaviour. Suggest swift expansion of the ban if s/he takes this behaviour to other wp:FRINGEy medical matters. Currently Neutral on sanctioning user:Erythema. Now also Support indef topic ban for user:Erythema rgds 188.222.98.201 (talk) 08:50, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I believe that Erythema, Drgao, and Sierraparis have honestly tried to abide by WP policies and I still believe that the NPOV of this article could be greatly improved. However, I don't believe in beating a deadhorse, and I do not feel that anything will be achieved by trying to discuss this topic further when the majority of the editors are not receptive. If you feel that Erythema, Sierraparis and Drgao have not followed policy then copying the relevant sections of policy would have been helpful. Many times they have asked for more specific objective justification concerning rejection of their proposals and have been met with hostility or sarcastic comments rather than useful discussion. One example I can think of was something to the effect that "fair and balanced is not what we do here". Erythema (talk) 16:54, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

comment From the very beginning of when you & Drgao started to edit the talk page (late May) other editors repeatedly gave you links to the relevant policies and explained - again repeatedly - how those policies judged that the sources you were advocating were not suitable, and that your editing/talk page etiquette were failing to adhere to the communities norms of behaviour. The majority of 'hostility & sarcasm' was coming from user:Drgao and if some of the other editors were occasionally testy it was because of the abovementioned & amply evidenced tendentious editing. As for "We don't do fair and balanced here, read WP:UNDUE" This was in the context of the questionable reliability of your supporting sources and was discussed in Archive 9 here. 188.222.98.201 (talk) 04:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. This is further evidence that all three editors (if they are separable in any manner....) still, even now, fail to understand our policies. They have been provided plenty of explanations and links to read. They are not suited for editing here at all, so now I support a total ban from Wikipedia. -- Brangifer (talk) 23:28, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Zollerriia

Zollerriia (talk · contribs) has been editing Wikipedia since 2010. His userpage has claimed since 2011 that he retired, but this is clearly not so. I first noticed a problem with his behavior when he removed Template:Start date and age from a page because it wasn't being used to indicate the age of a human (diff). I checked his recent contributions and found several problematic edits, such as requiring items in a list to all have pages of their own and leaving messages to editors who disagree in the page's source (diff 1) (diff 2) (diff 3), flagging every edit he makes as minor, even extremely major ones (diff), removing links for no reason (diff), and blatantly lying in his edit summaries (diff 1) (diff 2). I'm assuming good faith, but his talk page shows that multiple people and bots, over a span of several years, have all informed him that his edits are not all constructive, but he does not appear to have replied to anything. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 04:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Bumping this, as it hasn't received any response yet but is about to be archived. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 14:27, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Errrr...you want us to block him so that he actually reads his talkpage, then goes into his preferences to remove the "mark all edits as minor"? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Ok, I have used the "e-mail this user" function to draw their attention to the editing/behaviour concerns that are listed on their talkpage. I have asked them to review them, and act accordingly. I have offerred to assist them if they have difficulties in understanding or changing settings. Anything else? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I guess not. Thanks for looking into it. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 15:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I've brought this back from the archive because his behavior has restarted. He doesn't appear to have fixed anything, and there's still no evidence that he reads his talk page. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:03, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

You don't ever bring something this old from the archive - you open a new filing, and refer to the old one! (✉→BWilkins←✎) 00:20, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

"if it is already archived, remove it from the archive and restore it to this page" When is the cutoff for doing that? Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:33, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

About 2 hours after it's archived. This is now considered to be a new incident, and the previous was unactionned at the time. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 01:27, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, sorry about that. Jackmcbarn (talk) 01:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Besides, I just reviewed has last few edits - other than the fact that he has not turned off "mark all edits as minor" (which is not a blockable issue), what's wrong with the last few edits??? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

We removed the mark-all-edits-as-minor preference years ago; apparently he's actively marking them as minor. No comment on your statement otherwise. Nyttend (talk) 14:33, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

This edit concerns me. He's twisting policy and enforcing his own rules. Here (older edit) is the guideline he refers to in his edit summary. He does the same here. Also, he's recently added a new "guideline" to another article here. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:42, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Bumping to avoid re-archival. Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:22, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

User Qed237 is making unconstructive edits.

Header change proposal Could we change the header to what it actually is like "content dispute in UEFA Europa League" or something? I think that is more what is going on. Qed237 (talk) 10:20, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, User QED237 is making unconstructive edits on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_UEFA_Europa_League_qualifying_phase_and_play-off_round and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_UEFA_Europa_League when the official website (http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2014/draws/index.html) says otherwise. 108.162.157.141 (talk) 23:43, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

A couple of things: 1) 108.162 omitted to notify Qed237 of this thread. I've done so. 2) Qed attempted to have 108.162 blocked for vandalism at WP:AIV (diff: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=565953702&oldid=565949677 ). Qed did state that 108.162 "goes after another UEFA link", which looks to me like the primary source (UEFA) is ambiguous. Looks to me like a storm in a teacup content dispute (which I stated on ANI). Tonywalton ^Talk 00:09, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Apparently he/she failed to notify me. I was about to report him or her for the same reason after reporting her to vandalism board (The IP has a lot of warnings not only from me, just look at our talk pages). Anyhow This IP-user keeps changing matchorder despite both me and another user, Chanheigeorge (who started reverting) are of a different mind. We think that the matches should be set according to matchorder. Chanheigeorge is a well respected editor who knows what he is doing and I totally agree with him in this matter. My link had the order we are changing to, before the times where added and now it is based on kickoff-time (and matchnumber when same time). I have started an discussion on the article- talk page Qed237 (talk) 00:03, 27 July 2013 (UTC).

We based our order on http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2014/matches/round=2000467/index.html who had correct order (according to matchnumber) before adding starting-times. Qed237 (talk) 00:09, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

To be honest what you and Chanheigeorge think or are "of a mind" is irrelevant. What does the primary source say? If UEFA has conflicting information (as your statement that 108.162 "goes after another UEFA link" implies) you need either to get together and research what's correct or to report that conflicting information exists. Tonywalton ^Talk 00:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I have now three points below supporting my case. Qed237 (talk) 01:14, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The previous qualifying rounds were based on http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2014/draws/index.html as well. Furthermore, http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=1973141.html agrees with http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2014/draws/index.html 108.162.157.141 (talk) 00:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

No, you are incorrect. The first two rounds where also based on matchnumber. However the matchnumber and the article had the same order then. Qed237 (talk) 00:33, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

No, the previous round was based on the draw. It just happened that the matchnumber followed the same order.108.162.157.141 (talk) 00:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

What you are refering to is not the draw order, that show on the pictures in one of your link. They just wrote them down randomly to get the meetings out in an article as fast as possible. Qed237 (talk) 01:24, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

There is definitely conflicting information from UEFA. Look at the pictures 7 and 8 in your last link http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=1973141.html. There is the order me and chanheigeorge are changing to and was presented at the draw! (Which obviously was the initial information before the article) Qed237 (talk) 00:36, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I have a few points:

• Take a look at he original order on picture 7 and 8 on the link 108.162 so kindly gave me http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=1973141.html Qed237 (talk) 00:39, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Also look at http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2014/matches/round=2000467/index.html where if you click at the second leg at August 8 ("Third qualifying round: 8 August" in middle of page) it has the same order I like (according to matchnumber) now before the matchtimes are set. Qed237 (talk) 00:39, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Finally look at last year (third round) where the article http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=1842549.html says one thing and the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%9313_UEFA_Europa_League_qualifying_phase_and_play-off_round goes after matchorder where Videoton has 2009771, AIK has 2009772 and so on. It was sorted according to matchnumber in prevoius years so why change now? Qed237 (talk) 01:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

This appears to be a simple content dispute. Can both parties please clarify what admin involvement is required? Take the discussion to relevant talkpages, please. It's now about 23:25 GMT 27-Jul-2013.If no other admin objects and neither party comes up in the next 12 hours with good reasons why administrator involvement is required I intend to close this. Please sort it out according to Wikipedia guidelines;remember this encyclopædia reports on what other sources have said – it is not a gazetteer. Tonywalton ^Talk 23:26, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The admin involvment was required to stop the edit warring, with a lot of reverting. Since 108.162 has been blocked for 31 hours (until about 7:41 GMT 28 July), after having warnings from other users and from me, it is hard to know what he/she is thinking, but since the pages has been semi-protected he/she cant edit them unless he/she creats an account. Therefore it should not be any more problem at the moment. It is good that the pages are semi-protected now because there has been some amount of vandalism (not from 108.162), which unfortunately happens with articles of active sports-competitions. There is a current discussion on one of the talkpages, where so far two users (except me or 108.162) has commented and one of them is on "my side" and one dont care. I feel that my three points are a pretty strong case (and no user so far agreed with 108.162) but I will continue to watch the talkpage for everyones input (it is on my watchlist). We follow the source (UEFA), but source is ambiguous in this case, which lead to our dispute. Hopefully we can come to an agreement on the article-talkpage and that no admin will be needed. I will, as always, do my best. QED237 (talk) 01:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

User:MilesMoney Personal attacks, non-reliable sources and general non-constructive editing.

User:MilesMoney Has been repeatedly using Think Progress and The Daily Kos as reliable sources in a BLP article, and then resorting to personal attacks. On the talk page this has been discussed, but he does not seem to care.

A simple notification to him that The Daily Kos, Think Progress, and The Colbert Report are not reliable sources for BLP issues would be appreciated. Arzel (talk) 03:32, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

User has been notified. Arzel (talk) 03:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't the context of the use be important? For example, I don't think Think Progress should be uniformly excluded as a source for BLP. A current discussion on thinkprogess, is taking place here. Second, as far as being insulting, I would be concerned about WP:boomerang.Casprings (talk) 03:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I'm new here but Arzel has been on my tail from day one. He's following me around, undoing my work, threatening me and trying to get me to stop editing. His edit comments are full of lies, half-truths and insults. I'm really sick of him. Please send him away. Thank you. MilesMoney (talk) 07:04, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Since you are new, perhaps you are unaware that your claims will be much more plausible with diffs demonstrating them. JanetteDoe (talk) 13:52, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The main focus of his attacks have been on Steve King, where he's repeatedly lied about lack of sources. If you look at the section he keeps cutting, it refs ThinkProgress, Washington Post, and DailyKos. It is part of a larger paragraph that refs the Humane Society and Agri-Pulse. One of the secondary sources brings up the coverage of this scandal on the Colbert Report, so we include a link to the primary source for reference. Everything is cited, balanced and accurate, so BLP is not involved.

Since you asked, I tried to grab some diffs, but I'm sure I missed some and included a few that aren't important.

Arzel edit-warring over Steve King:

"Not reliably sourced"

"Now it is just vandalism"

"These ARE NOT RELIABLE SOURCES."

Censoring scarlet letter quote that is easily sourced [39]

Censoring Boehner quote cited by Politico, using false argument

"Repeated inclusion of non-reliable sourcing" but there were already three reliable sources and I then added more

(there may be more edit-war diffs that I missed)

Bonus:

Censoring another article about Steve King by deleting it

Here's where he acts like he owns the article and stays just barely over the line while baiting:

Aggressively attacking Robofish

Insulting Casprings

Attacking Caspring's motives again

"what is your problem?"

"you need to stop editing WP now"

Accusations of activism

Unreasonably taking insult and telling me to stop editing

Bottom line: he doesn't want this accurate stuff in the article so he's trying to intimidate me into silence. Stop him. MilesMoney (talk) 16:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I looked over the diffs. I am not seeing censorship, hounding, or intimidation. They seem mostly to be Arzel trying to get the page and you to follow policy, with a little impatience and some slow motion edit warring. Some suggestions: Assume good faith WP:AGF, ie don't assume the worst about someone's motives. Neither you nor I nor anyone else can mind read and discussions where someone assumes that they could get acrimonious very quickly. The archives for this page are full of examples. Second suggestion: slow down and learn the rules around sourcing for WP:BLP. They can be tricky and not everyone is born knowing them. JanetteDoe (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Asking me to learn the rules is reasonable. Demanding that I stop editing -- as Arzel has -- is not. MilesMoney (talk) 21:15, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed and agreed. What's your position on being asked to slow down on editing biographies of living persons until you are more familiar with reliable sourcing rules? WP:BLP is a special case of reliable sourcing and can trip up even a very experienced editor. JanetteDoe (talk) 22:18, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

ChrisGualtieri and his method of attempting to defame (yet again)

this editor continues to bring up issues unrelated to the topic at hand, and will not stop. He constantly makes claims of WP:BADFAITH and personal attacks, when it is he who's been doing it. I've gave him a warning several times but this time, he's done it again. shown here: [40] and i stress this isn't the first time he's done it. luckily i have access to a computer just to share this 1 quote, but i can't find the rest of the others this editor does. I'm tired of it, and i'm tired of ANI ignoring the things he does.Lucia Black (talk) 04:06, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Lucia Black, your longstanding grudge against this other editor is clear for all to see, and in my opinion, you would be well advised to ignore the other editor and focus on other things. Continued repetition of your complaints on various administrative noticeboards is unlikely to result in an outcome any different from past complaints. Please move on. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:32, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Time for a two-way interaction ban between both editors, anyone? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The core of the problem is a simple one, whether or not a full article can and should be devoted to the manga. A second problem exists whether or not a topic level article should be made to handle the 30 something titles, of which 8-10 do not meet N or GNG for their own pages. I want the articles at FA for the anniversary of Toren Smith's passing. I am not dealing with Ryulong or Lucia Black outside of DRN venues; as I indicated in the post she brought me to ANI for. I am serious about going to DRN, Mediation and even Arb Com to solve this situation, but she believes I do not want the problem resolved.[41] I already agreed to formal mediation, but Lucia did not file and I doubt it would be taken without a fair DRN on the matter. So I made the DRN section. This was in response to Lucia's continued WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, after discussing how her concepts of "win, lose or defeat" are "not personal". Especially concerning is: "whether i associate it with defeat and victory is none of my concern."[42] Those post she cited is me defending myself from her accusations of PAs and bad faith. I still AGF and I don't believe her editing is malicious, but it often introduces major errors or cut good content when sourcing is widely available. Our interaction should be minimal, and for at least the time being; purely at DRN venues. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:42, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• I saw this and believe a two way interaction ban is best for both editors and for the community. I fully support Luke's proposal above. Nick (talk) 14:25, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• On an interaction ban: both users are (or at least were) pretty active in the same articles and talk pages. WP:IBAN forbids either of them to respond to the other's comments. This will, undoubtedly, make for some difficult discussions. That's not to say there shouldn't be an IBAN, but I am wondering what its effect will be in those discussions. Drmies (talk) 16:48, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Perhaps a topic ban for one editor or the other is in order instead of, or in addition to, an IBAN; but I've not looked into the dispute properly, so can't tell which is being problematic (if either are) in that regard. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

All you can see is who throws the first punch, and it's obvious is ChrisGualtieri. This editor never stays directly on topic, he always has to bring up history, and i admitted i hated this editor FOR GOOD REASON because despite his "compliments", they don't come off as real because, not too long after those compliments, he raises strong issue. I'm sick and tired of not being able to prove the comments he does directly because i have had little access to a computer, and takes too long to look for every edit he's done just to show you. But if you look in talk:Dragon Ball, you can see how EASILY irritation gets to him and brings up topics that aren't relevant. and it goes on and on and on. And i'm not the only one who has a problem with him. You can see throughout WP:ANIME how he attacks other editors aswell.Lucia Black (talk) 00:53, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

He helped me get my article to GA status in less that three days, we expanded together and we stayed on topic the entire time, we expanded it and worked night and day pursuing our goal of getting the article to GA hes a productive and efficient editor in my opinion. Prabash.Akmeemana 01:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Prabash, it doesn't matter who he gets along with, if there is anyone out there that he doesn't get along with, it's going to be more valid. When it comes to anime and manga, this editor simply gets too bias. And you're bias yourself, don't you remember how you even got to know him in the first place? It's too bias to mention your personal (yet minor) experience. Right now taking account of the bad is more important than taking account of the "good". He helps who he chooses, and i admit i hate this editor, but i know how to not let it bother me, and this editor continues to throw it in my face. Think he's a productive and efficient editor? No one is denying that, but the ability to take wevery discussion personally? Thats what counts.Lucia Black (talk) 01:11, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

And that's why Lucia Black is a disruptive presence: some unqualified and unproven claim that Chris always starts it, followed by a semi-coherent rant ("it's going to be more valid"? what is?) that typically includes the statement that one way or another diffs cannot be provided. What Chris is supposed to do with wevery discussion (take it personally? or not?) is not clear, though it is pretty clear that the first person to claim Chris is a helpful editor gets his ass chewed out ("and you're bias yourself").

ANI sees this periodically, and I suppose it will continue until someone presses that block button for longer than I did--for disruption and personal attacks and frivolous threads, maybe. Drmies (talk) 04:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the long post, but if you want an understanding of the origin and nature of the entire matter, please read it in full. Our first interactions at Talk:Ghost_in_the_Shell/GA1 is rather indicative of the entire matter you see here today. I took the GAN for Ghost in the Shell because it is something I know extremely well, and I professed my affinity for it. Its philosophy, symbolism and even base details are all critically analyzed by scholars, with essays and sections of books dedicated to it.[43][44] And I know the material extremely well as a result of this interest. Lucia took issue with that knowledge and affection as a claim of “bias” in her second response, ever, to me.[45] She raised the issues with my "bias" at multiple venues at once, [46] and even using (EMERGENCY) in the title at the Wikiproject.[47] A second opinion was made by user Aircorn, who suggested failing the article. Another editor Niemti would later add additional comments for its failure. For more reasons then I care to list, the GA was a complete and utter disgrace which couldn't even get the plot summary right, had vast amounts of incorrect assertions, bad prose, OR and Synthesis and Lucia's axing of good content. Let's be clear; Lucia hates me, as she admits here. The original content dispute is exceedingly simple; but it is hard to improve content when it gets moved, altered and cut down. I can and have proven myself capable of adding detailed production and critical analysis of the material to topics. The most recent is the entire production section at Ghost in the Shell (film).[48] I can do this for each title of the property; but every time I make changes they are “fancruft” or gets deleted including a list of artbooks and official works. I want DRN to handle the content dispute over whether or not the international bestseller mangas warrant their own page, but I think that a one-way interaction ban (Lucia's comments towards me) be considered until she can get over her professed hatred. Over a month ago she professed, “I hate [Chrisgualtieri], and I hate [Chrisgualtieri] with a passion. I see [Chrisgualtieri]'s name on my talkpage and I see red.”[49] (Note: “that editor” is swapped with my name for context here) And given how she feels over a month later, I doubt Lucia will be feeling any more friendly in the foreseeable future. I'm not going to feed her hatred, and I probably shouldn't defend myself so vigerously, but I'm all but compelled to voice my side or be swept up in the drama. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:38, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• I support a topic ban, but honestly more because of how Lucia handles herself in the discussions. Kind of a boomerang if you ask me, but boh editors are more productive when not interacting... Sergecross73 msg me 04:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
• Having watched and been involved in a few disputes and discussions with Lucia, I've always had concerns about the tone and attitude (as well as quality of language), and this is yet one more example. See previous discussion, and few sections down in the same archive. It led to a block and a community-suggested break. Chris is not blameless but the issues are evident; I considered the potential for a one-way IBAN but the AN/I discussions I linked to above reassured me that it can only be helpful for Chris also. Obviously support an indefinite interaction ban, and in addition, a narrow topic ban from Ghost in the Shell topics, which seems to be the core of their dispute, as per the concerns raised above by @Drmies:; I worry than any IBAN is doomed to failed if not accompanied by a narrow TBAN of the main dispute. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 05:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Uh "It led to a block and a community-suggested break." Huh? This never happened to either Lucia or me from any ANI. The "Wikihounding" section was made by a troll who was blocked, I didn't sock and Lucia didn't sock.[50] Other ones popped up like User:Lucia Block and such. Please don't confuse those with us; I've not been blocked and I don't sock. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for allowing me to clarify. In regards to the AN/I thread, Lucia was blocked. After further verification, I'll admit there doesn't seem to have been a significant break. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 14:01, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia should ideally be decided on the merits of arguments and I wanted a process to be followed, but it has not yet been done. Of the 8 other editors who commented on the GITS matter, many shared my views, but they were drowned out in the discussion. I've begged to work together on this; I've begged for assistance with the RFC and DRN... I'm still begging that someone here can sit us down, make a call and we will be bound to accept it, because both of us have agreed to mediation. I'll be indebted to you regardless of the decision you make; I need someone to make the final choice that is not me or Lucia Black on the GITS matter.I'd even propose a single 2k word argument to represent each parties side because debate back and forth is utterly pointless. Barring that, I have planned to do two pages in my sandbox to deal with the topic-level and manga page. It would take me some time, but I will be glad to provide the sandboxes as evidence of my assertions under N, GNG, and SS. Even if the decision will require a GA or FA level article before my page goes live, the mere promise that a professional article can exist after reaching such a point will allow me complete such a mammoth undertaking. Also, given my expressed desire for GA and FA hopes, I'd hate to be punished for striving for accuracy and correctness and completeness of the material. Any editor willing to do this will have my full support and cooperation and deepest thanks. Please do not dismiss this plea; I've tried to make peace with Lucia, three times in fact, even Drmies saw the last of these efforts. I cannot solve this by myself; I desperately need assistance and Lucia too seems to want this resolution. Please help us resolve it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:30, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• It does not look like this is something ANI can solve because of the interwoven content and personality disputes [51]. Given the shared interests of the two editors, an interaction ban will only add to the drama another procedural layer. So, I suggest taking this case to Arbcom, even though their track record lately seems to be poor. (The Tea Party case appears to have been dragging its feet for something like six months!) Someone not using his real name (talk) 13:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  I've been kind of avoiding this but I should point out Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Ghost in the Shell, List of Ghost in the Shell chapters is still current. If that cannot solve things then ArbCom is obviously the next step.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

My "Hate" for this editor, is completely true. Whenever a discussion is made, no matter HOW neutral i try to be, he makes quick accusations, he brings up topics that aren't even related to the subject just to defame, and this is when he doesn't get his way as you can see in talk:Dragon Ball. I'm not the one trying to bring up "Hate" constantly in a discussion, he's the one bringing it up. this editor always changes topic, he deliberately tries to make things personal and you can see it constantly throughout WT:ANIME. And these things happen BEFORE i proclaimed my hate. And whatever "peace" he attempts, doesn't come off as genuine. He makes compliments right after insults and vice versa. so his compliments or any praise don't come off as genuine, they just come off as insulting. User Drmies seeing whether or not Chris tried to make peace may not be completely true, and i know I've accused someone else of bias in this discussion, but this one seems much more apparent. For example: When an editor claimed to be ChrisGualtieri. it would be BADFAITH to assume it was someone else's sock, so why would Drmies come to me and tell me something insulting? He didn't need to give his opinion of me, nor did he have to give me a warning for something that can be completely justified. If someone claimed to make an alternate user, would you believe it the first time it happens? [52][53] And it doesn't help that this editor tries to use the same accusations Drmies used for 1 situation, in every new discussion. For example, constantly accusing me of WP:IDHT when there is hardly a consensus that has been reached, which WP:IDHT is heavily based on. this editor can accuse me of WP:HOUNDING as much as he likes, the discussions were made public in WP:ANIME, and for everyone to see and considering i've been active in that wikiproject, so "hounding" is HIGHLY inappropriate. Also accuses me of a liar so blatantly. He has no idea how much poison he spreads in a discussion. My hate for this editor just continues to grow, because this editor brings up things that arent relevant to the topic. ANd i could care less that i hate him, and his ways, but i warned him before DO NOT BRING UP THINGS IRRELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION. He WANTS to defame me, and it's obvious in that edit, which i EXPECT admins will see it and remove it. Because it's not right for him to do that [54] and only poisons the discussion, and causes more hate.Lucia Black (talk) 20:46, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• There is literally nothing wrong with Chris' edit there. It's a perfectly understandable reaction to your edits. I'm beginning to think more and more that you deserve a topic ban, since it appears to be you that is the disruptive presence - and you've laden that statement above with personal attacks. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

You say that, but that's not true. You can see my following comment is completely CIVIL, but he does the exact opposite. What does he do Luke? Did he in fact quote me of something completely unrelated to the issue at hand? yes or no? It fathoms me, that an admin can't see what he's doing. there is no justification for that, and i WOULD never do that UNLESS it was directly related to the topic at hand. WHich in this case it's not.Lucia Black (talk) 21:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Just a note, Lucia's claims above are false and is just distracting drama. User:KuroiNekoko-chan made the "wikihounding" report.[55] User:Chibi Kusanagi, was similiar, but no where did this troll claim to be me despite Lucia's claim.[56] While I don't want to probe this too far, Lucia made this statement to Drmies and now at this discussion.[57] The word "lie" is indeed strong, but given the context of the event, it seemed that these false claims were knowingly used to redirect suspicion on me and protect herself. It was not the best term to use, I'll admit that, but my reasoning is likely justified. Lastly, it should also be noted that I requested Kuroi's last three edits be revdeleted because it was likely to be used to for a conspiracy - which Chibi Kusanagi referenced. Unless I am mistaken about the "deal". With that being said, please understand my frustration in dealing with Lucia and my desire to protect myself from personal attacks whose details are grossly exaggerated or unfounded. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Chris, there was no reason to mention that in said topic. You're the one trying to make things personal. It's not my fault, these issues are being brought up in WP:ANIME. But in every discussion, you always reference past encounters unrelated to the issue at hand. i'm not lying and i'm not being dramatic.Lucia Black (talk) 03:39, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: BOOMERANG topic ban for User:Lucia Black

I think it's become apparent to all that this user is an enormous time sink. They constantly drag things to ANI for invalid reasons, so I think it is time for a topic ban from both WP:ANI, and all articles related to WikiProject Anime, broadly construed, for an initial period of three months. Throwing an IBAN in here might not be a bad idea either.

• Support as proposer. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

List of credentials in psychology article

Can someone check this article? List of credentials in psychology. Unless I'm mistaken, User:Ritten Wright continues to insert and re-insert material into the article which, to me, appears to be unsourced and POV and possibly OR. Maybe I'm mis-reading it. Please advise if anyone has the time to look at it. Thanks in advance. --- Wikiklrsc (talk) 04:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I have removed most of the editor's additions. Most of it was original research and not suitable for inclusion in my opinion. -- Diannaa (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 14:48, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, this is Ritten Wright, I am fairly new to Wikipedia and have much to learn about operating it. I'm not even sure if this comment will be auto date stamped and in addition to already have written my user name, I am going to try the 4 tilde thing for a link signature. Anyway, I must say I am perplexed by referenced to my edits as POV, OR, unsourced, and unencyclopedic. I'm not sure what level of disagreement we have here, but I am citing reliable sources, and in adding conjecture (asserting that something does not exist), I am respectfully inviting others to show otherwise. Regarding my apparent persistence in re-inserting material which is removed, I believe the serial inserter and the serial remover bear some responsibility for one another's editing (equally). It seems we may actually be collaborating, through several partial re-insertions and partial re-removals toward a better page than when I found it. I think I have my user page correctly set up now, so may be contacted directly Ritten Wright (talk) 23:28, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Unhelpful IP editor

For the past week or so, someone on Hanaro Telecom in Seoul (dynamic IP) has been making a series of unnecessary changes ot several articles. In the past 24 hours, he has been edit warring at Super Sentai (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) on the following IP addresses:

• 114.205.127.39 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 114.205.127.230 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 118.216.183.163 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

He has also edited as

• 118.216.183.15 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 118.216.183.20 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 114.205.127.159 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 114.205.127.90 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

He does not seem to know the proper rules and regulations or etiquette of the project and because his IP is dynamic it is hard to prevent abuse from him. As he is now edit warring, this raises other problems. I think we need to block him so we can at least stop further disruption.—Ryulong (琉竜) 12:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

After researching the article Zord edit history, I see you have some issues there. You clearly need to read WP:OWNERSHIP. Many details and additions have been attempted by various editors and you have just reverted them all. Perhaps if you supply specific diffs that you are concerned about, other editors can zero in on your problem. This article seems particularly specific in interest to editors of this geographic area and of course they would use similar IPs. I see no abuse or editwarring in this article other than multiple complaints on the talk page regarding yourself since May 2013. 99.251.120.60 (talk) 14:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

After further reading of the Zord talk page I have noticed your edits can be very nasty, insulting, and rude to other editors there. I don't know if this is classic behavior on your part in other articles but with 15 seconds of reading your own talk page I found this with another editor complaining of the same attitude. I would find it very disturbing to have my length of appearance here used to win a content dispute ridiculing my opinion. How is it related to accuracy? Perhaps a wikiBreak could help somewhat for you to respond in a less aggressive manner in content discussions? 99.251.120.60 (talk) 14:21, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

None of these concerns of yours, all of which have been addressed by now, have anyhing to do with the issue at hand. That diff you attempt to link to I immediately apologized for, and the issues at Talk:Zord have also been addressed as evident from the talk page.

And it is quite obvious that the operators of these IP addresses I listed above are all the same individual. The first three listed all perform the same edit and act as if they are the same person by intending to put the exact same information onto the page.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about Wikipedia considering these two comments here are the only ones that have ever been made from this particular IP address. That in itself seems a little suspicious.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

When were you going to notify any of these editors of your attempted case against them? This seems like the same consideration given all your "conquests" and another example of your lack of consideration towards other editors. Your talk page alone is enough evidence you need a kick in the pants for your behavior, foul language and bold demanding text. For example: in response to a question of you

...if I institute a spelling change you better fucking accept it as having a damn good reason

Proper progressive discipline may have turned that vicious attitude towards others into a helpful co-operative editor. This should have been dealt with a long time ago. 99.251.120.60 (talk) 10:45, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Digging further I have come across another WP:BULLYing example from your talk page history. In article Halcyon_Days_(Ellie_Goulding_album) [58] (see history) you have clearly editwarred in your attempt to delete the article without any prior discussion and three other separate editors reverted your edits. You were warned of this on your talk page where your response was "What the eff are you doing" and removed it without any consideration. I am not sure this behavior should be tolerated from such an experienced editor here. This is the stuff that drives other editors away in droves. 99.251.120.60 (talk) 11:11, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I have already determined that this is a dynamic IP address so it is going to be impossible to contact them in any form. Several have been left messages but it's obvious that they have not been read. Now, pardon my French, but why the fuck are you attempting to dig up all of these less than perfect instances of my behavior? Everything you're bringing up is currently being dealt with in the proper channels (apology to Saluki.N, discussion with Status). What purpose is this? And why are you acting on this from an unregistered IP address? I came here seeking assistance and it's almost as if you want me to be punished for something else. Who are you? I have the right to know because WP:SOCK says "Logging out to make problematic edits as an IP address" is considered a violation of said policy.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to this unnecessary sideshow, the operator of the IPs I initially reported has continued his deleterious edits as 118.217.145.28 (talk · contribs · WHOIS).—Ryulong (琉竜) 01:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I will leave this to an admin to evaluate your WP:Ownership of these articles in the edit history of Kyoryugers and Zord. Ryulong has made hundreds of edits in these articles and about half of them have been reverts to many dozens of other editors contributions. Many of them include foul language and insulting tone in the edit histories of his reverts. It won't take long to identify this behavior. This complaint appears to be just a general content dispute with an attempt to squash contributions from these IPs. There may be some dynamically allocated multiple IP usage and language fluency problems but I see no abuse or attempt to deceive using multiple IPs (self support). I also see no attempt to resolve, help or advise any of these IP editors on personal or article talk pages. Overall behavior towards others has been atrocious, as noted above.99.251.120.60 (talk) 01:52, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Seriously who are you and what is your beef with me?—Ryulong (琉竜) 01:56, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I am just a drive-by editor, part of a study of the process on WP:AN(I). I have never used a named account and randomly researched your claims about an alleged multiple IP abuser. The case attracted me due to a complaint from an editor with so much experience claimed and yet cannot provide any diff evidence. Some sample results of my simple research are stated above. I have had no previous contact with any of the IPs or yourself and certainly have no bias against you. You have dedicated a lot of your own time for the project. 99.251.120.60 (talk) 04:03, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Diff evidence seems unnecessary when the IP addresses only possess a total of 20 edits between the 8 of them. And I find your story very hard to believe.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Repeated hostile, insulting remarks by User:Carolmooredc

In an RfC on Gary North, the above user has maligned me for "want[ing to destroy a living person on Wikipedia" and alleged I am motivated to do this ot "bolster [my] own status among their peers, assuming their peers would take such activities seriously." She provides no evidence for this allegation, and therefore it constitutes WP: Personal attack. When I called her out on this, she attacked me as "hypersensitive"; when another user (a libertarian who strongly opposes my view on the RfC) characterized Carol's ocomment as a personal attack, she erroneously accused him of "harassment"

Since Carol to heed to warnings from her peers, and since I am banned from her talk page due to prior warnings about her PA, I need to ask admin to give her a warning about a conduct and a ban from the North article, where she continues to be disruptive. I am willing and able to detail a truly extravagant and massively extensive history of carol's personal attacks/erroneous allegations against other users if admin deems this context to be helpful. Steeletrap (talk) 19:38, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• First, I did not review who wrote what of the WP:OR under discussion. I made a general statement of frustration about attack BLPs. [Added later actual quote this diff: However much an editor may want to destroy a living person using Wikipedia, and thus bolster their own status among their peers, assuming their peers would take such activities seriously, they still must follow Wikipedia rules to do it and using primary source out of context WP:OR is against the rules.] I specifically told User: Steeletrap in response to his complaint - at this diff: "Such hypersensitivity. Obviously you have never edited dozens of BLPs on Jewish critics of Israel like I have or you would know of what I speak." I struck "hypersensitive". Suggestions on more Wikietiquette compliant phrase to explain my frustration over a false allegation welcome. [Added clarification: False allegation being that I specifically was talking about Steeletrap; I have not seen diff of who put in the info.]
• Second, I asked another user a few weeks back not to contact me on my talk page except with official notices. He forgot and I just wanted to remind him how I felt. He thanked me for reminding him. It's really none of User:Steeletrap's business.
• User:Steeletrap seems to have forgotten I had to do a WP:ANI a couple months back to get others to help stop him from posting questionable comments on my talk page. (Official notices being explicitly exempted, of course.) User:Carolmooredc 20:15, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Carol, your comment at the RfC about "destroying" was, if not a personal attack directed at a particular editor, inappropriate in any context and certainly inappropriate in an RfC. I suggest you be more careful in the future and limit your comments to content and issues and not attacks on editors, whoever they are.
• Steeletrap, why are you posting this sort of notice of the RfC? Not very neutral, is it?--Bbb23 (talk) 20:24, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Not at all unneutral; I completely reject that insinuation. I was simply describing the disputed material related to North views, which is in and of itself inflammatory, and how it relates to the noticeboard in question. I did something similar at the Calvinist noticeboard: describing the RfC and how it relates to Calvinism. These posts were accurately describing an inherently inflammatory subject, but were prescriptive or putting any sort of spin on the situation. Steeletrap (talk) 21:16, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Heh, I'd hardly call it an "insinuation". If you prefer to be obtuse over this, it will only lead to trouble.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:39, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Mea culpa. Best to stay away from BLPs until whatever doesn't tick me off so much. Or I see enough editors supportive of BLP policy working on an article, so I can relax and not blow my cool. User:Carolmooredc 20:29, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposed resolution Since Carol has apologized for her conduct, and (to my eye) indicated she will steer clear of the article in question, I support ending this matter without sanction provided she 1) confirms my impression regarding her intention to stay away from Gary North, where her disruptive behavior has occurred and 2) crosses out her insulting, hostile remarks on the Gary North RfC. Steeletrap (talk) 22:57, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I think removing the offending two word phrase was sufficient. Though I do think it was a false exaggeration and I probably should just have said so. Will control self and not add it now. I don't think it's a good precedent to let minor complaints be used to chase an editor off a BLP where there are issues. Plus I did put the RfC on a couple Wikiprojects much more relevant than others posted to and am curious to see if there is a response. Plus I am curious to see if the BLP subject is that bad why certain libertarians put up with him. Is there some explanatory text somewhere that's WP:RS? I found a few interesting things, mostly WP:OR (like the WP:OR cherry picked quotes in contention) and others not quite WP:RS. My female curiosity so often gets me in trouble... User:Carolmooredc 23:33, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I will withdraw my suggestion and suggest a ban on Carol's participation in Gary North, since she refuses to cross out her speculative, bad-faith assuming, PA assertion that I am out to "destroy" and libel North to promote myself on Wikipedia, rather than out to contribute to this encyclopedia. (She incorrectly thinks only the "hypersensitive" slight was a violation of policy.) Given Carol's extensive history of PAs on me, and her repeated refusal (despite prompting from peers and an admin) to acknowledge her editing is disruptive and to change that editing, I think banning her from editing North is necessary. Steeletrap (talk) 00:25, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Steeletrap, just so you know, any admin can block Carol if they believe it's warranted. However, a ban requires a thorough discussion and a consensus; it's not something an admin can do unilaterally except in circumstances not present here. I would discourage you from pursuing such a ban because I don't believe there is enough to support it, but I also wanted to point out the procedural hurdles.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Again, as I clarified above I was not writing specifically about Steeletrap when I wrote at this diff: However much an editor may want to destroy a living person using Wikipedia, and thus bolster their own status among their peers, assuming their peers would take such activities seriously, they still must follow Wikipedia rules to do it and using primary source out of context WP:OR is against the rules.

Again I still haven't seen the diff of who put the material in. However, given the tadoo, I can see as a general statement it was not a good one and will strike it, especially since Steeltrap takes it so personally. As frustrated as I may be when I visit various BLPs, I have to stop taking BLP rules so seriously and editorializing about generalized people breaking them! User:Carolmooredc 01:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Given your "mea culpa" and acknowledgement of error, I have no further concern on this matter. I remain very concerned with your general pattern of personal attacks, to which my (literally) dozens of (saved) diffs attest. I recommend that you resolve to focus on content, not contributors, if you wish to avoid other ANIs in the future. Steeletrap (talk) 01:28, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Not commenting at all on Carolmooredc or Steeletrap, but when I look at Gary North (economist) I see a BLP nightmare. Negative claims sourced only to broken links, opinions from ideological enemies presented as unattributed facts, personal interpretations of primary sources, you name it. Zero^talk 05:22, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing. I'm no big fan of the guy, but I just hate such untidy nightmares of wikipedia articles that are ripe for use (or being used) in Guilt by Association references in other BLPs! User:Carolmooredc 05:28, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Please don't make Off-topic remarks on this thread. There is an RfC where you can share your (distinctly minority) opinion as to "BLP" concerns. Steeletrap (talk) 05:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

It's relevant to the discussion because that is what Carol said was the concern that she was discussing. As someone who has both collided with and worked side-by-side with Carol for at least three years, I can tell you that her focus is only on well sourced articles in conformance with Wikipedia standards, not on drama with other editors. North8000 (talk) 12:41, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I highly disagree with North8000's statement regarding an interest from CarolmooreDC solely on well sourced articles. Based primarily on the sheer volume of "drama" associated with this editor, along with numerous edits CarolmooreDC has made over the years regarding an M.O. on Wikipedia of defending very specific political pages from what CarolmooreDC considers "bias". While not involved with this particular article, I can speak from experience in noting that personal attacks are User:Carolmooredc's standard operating procedure. She consistently uses relentless personal attacks and assumes as a matter of course than anyone who disagrees with her has a non neutral POV. For example, a user page from another user documenting CarolmooreDC's persistent attacks on his/her user page:

User_talk:Goodwinsands#Under_the_green_bars:_documentation_of_a_tag-team_harassment_campaign

And from other users "Your_lack_of_good_faith The last two sentences in this edit show an appalling lack of good faith. Is every person with whom you disagree going to be tarred with the false accusations of your choice?"

CarolmooreDC and I had been involved in a longstanding dispute on an article (Gilad Atzmon) I supported both of us being banned from the article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive583#Please_ban_two_users_from_article_Gilad_Atzmon) as I had confidence in the Wiki community. CarolMooreDC opposed the idea, and her comments lead an admin to propose she be banned from Wikipedia entirely "The fact that you think it's appropriate to post a message like this while the ANI discussion is going on makes me wonder whether a permanent ban from Wikipedia might be more appropriate." Drsmoo (talk) 21:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

RE: DrSmoo: If one looks under the GreenBars one finds evidence that my charge User:Goodwinsands was a sockpuppet were worth looking at. (Obviously he changed the titles of every posting a couple of us made about his questionable editing habits to something reflecting his viewpoint and deprecating our concerns. Rather tacky.)

Then you link to two 2009 discussions. Finally, I don't notice that either of us have interacted at Atzmon since December 5 of 2011. So I have to wonder why you bring such stale material here. User:Carolmooredc 00:57, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Even here you're personally attacking other users. Why call him "tacky"? Drsmoo (talk) 01:21, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

In this thread, above -- at 20:29, 27 July 2013 (UTC) -- I understood carolmooredc to say that she would stay away from BLPs until she could participate without getting upset. Then, beginning almost immediately she posted the first of over 20 additional edits on the North article. Three weeks ago, after a making a barrage of harassing and personal attack posts, she made a similar promise to stay away from BLPs she feels are contentious. That promise lasted until the recent uncivil behavior relating to the North article. Carolmooredc has not been able to confine her contributions to content and policy and consistently phrases her remarks in edit summaries and on talk pages in terms of adversarial, and frequently hostile, personal comments. I am not convinced that this problem can be addressed without an explicit remedy, either voluntary or imposed. SPECIFICO talk 22:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

First, this is the User:Specifico who has been brought to WP:ANI numerous times since last fall and was discussed at length in this ANI in June for harassing talk page notices.

Re: 20:29 above, I said it was best to stay away until User:Steeletrap demanded I promise to stay away from an article where I feel Steeletrap is engaging in yet another incredibly biased editing adventure. As I wrote, that would considering a single diff, a misinterpretation of something I wrote, was used as an excuse, that would be a really bad precedent.

However, after wasting another few hours on the article last night I decided that I really could not deal with seeing what goes on in the articles Specifico and his academic economics colleague/collaborator User:Steeletrap work on, so I quit the article. (I assume Specifico is not Steeletrap's MBA advisor who steered Steeletrap to Wikipedia? Steeletrap didn't answer when I asked. They certainly agree many Austrian economics-related articles must be rewritten to serve their academic biases.)

This NPOVN deals with the bias issues. ANI searches will show they were shared at various points by other editors who have now left (or been driven off?) Wikipedia after interacting with User:Specifo (and his past allies) or Specifico/Steeletrap: User:Xerographica, User:Byelf2007, User:Sageo, User:Id4abel. These editors also lost their tempers over heavily biased editing behavior.

FYI, the subject of the bio I just quit, Gary North, wrote really creepy stuff in the 80s/90s and still may hold the same views, even if he doesn't write about them in various libertarian publications. However, I speculate that editors may see it as great article for poisoning other BLPs of people who have even a loose association with North.

A current example of how destructive the editing is this: Specifico and/or Steeletrap removed from the lead of Murray Rothbard any mention of Rothbard being an "economist of the Austrian school" - despite seven high quality references to that effect. I put that info back last night, but Steeletrap reverted the edit and removed this important factoid again. In June an editor who is not a Rothbard fan wrote at Wikiproject Economics that she was appalled that anyone would consider removing economist from the Infobox. Steeltrap/Specifico removed it from there and the lead of the article itself!

I personally think Wikipedia, especially regarding BLPs, is too broken to stop editors who hate subjects of bios from making poorly sourced or minor incidents the focus of whole articles, not to mention removing well sourced neutral or positive information. (At least in the Israel-Palestine issue there were enough strong voices against this sort of thing, even if it was a constant battle; far less in the Austrian/libertarian area, I'm afraid, making it more frustrating.)

I am relieved that I now have an excuse to cut back on my Wiki editing and get my own writing done. However, I do have a long letter I'm writing to the Wikimedia Foundation about the dangers of allowing BLP abuses to flourish. I'll suggest a couple things they might do to see if there isn't some way they can promote more effective protection from POV pushers out to ruin others' reputation. (Feel free to leave suggestions via my talk page or email.)

But, to be a bit sarcastic, I confess: if I'm so evil, and Steeltrap/Specifico such paradigms of neutral BLP editing, please block me for a few weeks. I need to avoid temptation anyway! Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 02:09, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

User carolmooredc has again posted a defense which rationalizes her conduct by stating that such disruptive and uncivil conduct is somehow necessary in order to maintain the BLP policies here. But there are numerous instances of her uncivil behavior and personal attacks that have no relation whatsoever to content or policy. For example after user Steeletrap objected to a personal attack by Carolmooredc, she responded with a gratuitous anti-Semitic slur in reply to user Steeletrap, who self-identifies as Jewish on her user page. On numerous other occasions carolmooredc has post entirely gratuitous and irrelevant anti-Semitic slurs on talk pages, such as in this edit summary here. Carolmooredc has made hundreds of uncivil, harassing, disruptive, and personal attack posts and edit comments which cannot be rationalized away or justified by her empty claim that such attacks are necessary to support WP policy. SPECIFICO talk 03:08, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

In addition to her repeated anti-Semitic insinuations ("Zionists" is a favored code word of this crowd) and personal attacks, Carol often engages in baseless personal speculation about editors, such as her false suggestion that SPECIFICO is my "faculty advisor" for an "MBA" program. Her conduct is detrimental to this community and needs to be dealt with. Steeletrap (talk) 03:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• To save anyone else the bother, investigating the first couple of links shows that the complaints in this report are baseless. The wording used by Carolmooredc was fine—pointy, but fine. It did not name an editor, and there was no hint concerning whether a specific editor was the target of the comments. The comment could be argued to be off-topic as it did not refer to a policy, but all experienced editors who have tried to protect BLP articles from enthusiasts have had to use similar wording to explain the core issue to those involved in the discussion. This report should be closed and discussion focus on the issue—is it acceptable that certain words (portraying a named person as a nutcase) are used in Wikipedia's voice based on primary sources? Johnuniq (talk) 07:18, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

  Rather than "saving anyone else the bother" it would be better to let people come to their own conclusions. Carolmooredc has been making personal attacks on users, and editing in a highly disruptive manner for years. She's even making personal attacks on this noticeboard. She openly baits, harasses and threatens anyone who disagrees with her on a topic, and has been doing so for years. Drsmoo (talk) 07:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

  Which links above provide evidence for those strong claims (which, without plausible evidence, are personal attacks)? I just checked a couple more links and they do not show what was claimed. Johnuniq (talk) 10:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Situation on Multi-factor authentication

There has been continual disputes over content on Multi-factor authentication (and other articles) about reference to an authentication technique known as "Virtual token"; in the past, this content had been added with specific references to a vendor known as Sestus and with trademark symbols. But this time, it does not contain those specific references, yet points to references that do not match up with the actual content described.

Nonetheless, an IP editor continually in a range of 70.xxx.xx.xx (several different IP's in this range have spammed security-related articles with promotion of Virtual token, and even successfully snagged a potential client on another site through its promotion on Wikipedia, leading me to believe that they work for the vendor), reverts these additions with a warning telling editors not to remove it, and attacks any editor who removes the content (WP:OWN). I have requested semi-protection, but I think we may need further action. ViperSnake151  Talk  19:43, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The above editor ViperSnake151 incorrectly believes that the phrase "virtual token" refers to some specific vendor or product. It does not. it refers to a TYPE of authentication, just as "software token" and "hardware token" refer to other TYPES of multi-factor authentication. I have no idea why the above ViperSnake151 editor feels compelled to censor information about "virtual" forms of MFA. A simple search on Google.com turned up the fact that numerous companies currently offer "virtual" forms of MFA including MobilePass, DNABolt, RSA, Sestus, Safenet, Google, Cisco, Microsoft, Charismathics, eTrade, IBM, etc. The list goes on and on. The section in question on the page does not name, nor identify ANY vendor. I have posted queries on the above editor's talk page, asking them to explain their objections to the inclusion of this type of MFA on this page, but they have simply erased my query from their talk page. See: # http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AViperSnake151&diff=566108814&oldid=566037281

MesaBoy77 (talk) 05:26, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: a thread concerning this has been started at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#Repeated erasure of pertinent page content by 2 specific editors. Page: Multifactor Authentication. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

MesaBoy77 knows very well that 'Virtual Token' is a trademark of Sestus LLC - he has edit warred to keep in external links to sestus.com and trademark symbols in the past: diff. It's probably worth mentioning that the IP that has been edit warring over this as well (70.162.149.36 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)) geolocates nearby to the headquarters of Sestus, LLC. - MrOllie (talk) 11:07, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

By MrOllie's logic, Wikipedia must prohibit discussion of any topic that is similar to some commercial company's trademark, product, or company name. If we did that, we wouldn't be able to discuss anything on Wikipedia. It is true that when I first added the section on virtual token to this page, I included a sentence that informed the reader that the phrase "virtual token" was now a trademark owned by a commercial company, but that was not an attempt to promote anything. If some company were to trademark the phrase "software token", should we then erase all information about software tokens? When MrOllie objected last year and accused me of affiliation with some commercial company, I removed all references from all vendors and products from the sections on this page that I had contributed. Apparently, that was not enough for MrOllie. In my opinion, MrOllie has some fixation either with me or with that particular company or its products. Perhaps he is a dissatisfied customer of that company? I don't know. In any case, he cannot seem to offer any objection except for his statement that the phrase is similar to a trademark owned by a company. As I mentioned before, there are dozens of security companies offering "virtual" versions of multifactor authentication. I cannot control what those companies may call their respective products, nor can I control their trademarks. But I don't think we should exclude all "virtual" forms of MFA from this page simply because MrOllie has some apparent beef with one specific company offering that form of MFA. Microsoft pissed me off last year with Windows 8. Should we now remove all references to "operating systems" from Wikipedia in protest? I am dissatisfied with Obama. Should we ban all information about U.S. Presidents? I don't like Indian food. Should we remove the page about Taandori Chicken?— Preceding unsigned comment added by MesaBoy77 (talk • contribs) 15:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have blocked MesaBoy77 for one week for edit warring and for socking. Based on WP:DUCK, I believe that MesaBoy, 70.162.149.36 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and 70.190.0.52 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are the same individual. On April 16, 2013, .36 made this edit. A minute later, MesaBoy made this edit to the same talk page, removing the IP sig and replacing it with his own. On March 5, 2013, MesaBoy made this edit to .52's talk page. Less than an hour later he removed most of what he'd added. There is also, of course, the fact that .36 has been edit warring over the material on the article until it was semi-protected, at which point MesaBoy jumped in. Both IPs geolocate to the same spot in Arizona. MesaBoy is from Arizona. That's enough for me.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Ancientsteppe

Ancientsteppe (talk · contribs) is falsifying and/or deleting sources in the article Barlas while inserting unsourced POV. I have told him to stop, but all he does is ignoring it or blanking his talk page. It is clear that he is a "man on a mission" with an ethnocentric (in this case Mongol-centric) agenda. Admin action is required! --Lysozym (talk) 20:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Note - Ancientsteppe was not notified of this discussion, so I posted the standard notice on his talk page. I am otherwise not involved in this issue. -- Taroaldo ✉ 21:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not me, this Iranian user is trying to rewrite our Mongolian history.The Barlas were a Mongol tribe and i'm Mongol.I have added only few words: "Barlas were a Mongol tribe of Nirun orgin", "Descendants of them are living in Mongolia".What is wrong with it?Some of the Barlas migrated to Uzbekistan but it doesn't mean the history of the Barlas isn't a part of the Mongolian history.I edited (ru:Барласы) the article on russian Wiki but russian Wiki users didn't resist my edit, all Central Asians know the russian language, only this user starting a problem on english Wiki.Many users are watching these articles, other users didn't resist my edit.Ancientsteppe (talk) 05:33, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• I see a lot of reverts but no talkpage contributions from either editor. Diffs like this, with multiple passages affected throughout the article, make it hard for either the outside reader or the other editor to infer what is being objected to. I can't see what in this is supposed to be "inserting unsourced POV", or what is "falsifying sources". Lysozym and Ancientsteppe, you both need to go to the article's talkpage, quick. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:20, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Legal threat?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

"Because of this website(s) widespread use by million of people I may refer this information to the FBI in regard to how their information is being used to mislead people". Talk:Homosexuality#Violence against Gays and Lesbians from User: Ranleewright.--Amadscientist (talk) 21:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

What do you expect a person interested in truth to do, the edits to entry and its subsections of this page are going further away from the truth everyday, it is misleading the public who use Wikipedia, a public who feels it is a unbiased resource? I have not as yet went to the step of sending copies of the information to the FBI or other outside organizations, that is why I said I may refer. Are you so determined to mislead and be biased that you would have me blocked or removed from Wikipedia? This further proves you want no criticism of your edits on this resource, your not interested in improving your wording in regard to the references, this is a very sad outcome for Wikipedia as far as use and being unbiased. Ranleewright (talk) 22:43, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

These are valid concerns / issues I wish to draw and direct attention to, misleading or information skirting falsehood should not be allowed to remain on Wikipedia if you want it to be regarded as well regarded resource for the public in general as an encyclopedia and such. Now if you have no concern in regard to the information being unbiased and non-misleading then go for it but put a disclaimer on each page to show that is the fact of the matter. Ranleewright (talk) 22:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• The statement by Ranleewright is not a legal threat. The material is apparently sourced to an FBI report, and the user is saying that they would report that the report is being miscited. That said, the comments by Ranleewright strike me as, at best, unhelpful.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:58, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• This is a simple content dispute. But accusing other editors of misleading the public is uncivil behaviour and it will not contribute to the resolution of any outstanding issues. -- Taroaldo ✉ 23:00, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think is more than a content dispute. The editor appears to have an agenda.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:06, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

If Ranleewright was truly interested in improving wording in regard to references, one might expect that as a first step, they may have responded or passed some comment on the 3 suggestions I made on the article talk page in which I indeed attempted to improve the wording. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:09, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Agreed, Bbb23. Only meant insofar as the ANI report goes, there does not appear to be a legal threat. The problem remains with the content...and certain conduct. Taroaldo ✉ 23:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I respect Bbb23's opinion on this. I feel that the wording when looked at with the previous comment: "I hold forth no hope that this will be corrected or mitigated because this seems to be Wikipedia's purpose to spread biased and misleading material to the general public, even allowing pornographic material displaying sexual themes, relations and organs to underage children without restriction, this is illegal in every other form of media." makes it appear that the intent is a legal matter of finding Wikipedia liable for its content and an accusation of a misuse of an Official US Government agency. This seems a borderline legal threat and could be interpreted to mean that they intend to seek legal action. I feel the issue can be left as is, unless the editor continues to make threats of off Wiki action.--Amadscientist (talk) 23:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

This, as quoted by the OP here, does indeed qualify as a legal threat: "You better fix this, or I'm calling the FBI." The rest of his posts are loaded with accusations of the "conspiracy theory" type. Certainly that SPA has an agenda, though it's not clear just what that agenda is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:28, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

That was my basic, original thought.--Amadscientist (talk) 23:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Note - This is why it is helpful to add all the relevant diffs at the beginning of the discussion. Still, "calling the FBI" does not constitute a threat of litigation. WP:LEGAL -- Taroaldo ✉ 00:09, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
  • It does constitute a "Perceived legal threat". The language was meant to create a chill effect and stop editing and intimidate editors. I'm back to calling this enough of a legal threat that intervention may be needed for prevention as the editor is making it clear they intend some action.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
    • That point seems to come up here from time to time. It's not the specific nature of the threat that forbids it - it's the attempt to intimidate editors. That's why threatening to call the FBI is every bit as much a "legal threat" as threatening to call Dewey, Cheatham and Howe. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

The statement is, indeed, intended to chill the discussion and to get their way in the argument. As such, I believe it is a clear legal threat, in violation of WP:NLT (✉→BWilkins←✎) 00:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

While our interpretations of WP:LEGAL may differ slightly, I concur that contributions in the talk page appear to be an attempt to intimidate or bully other editors. I think most of us can probably agree that some kind of action would be appropriate in this case. Taroaldo ✉ 01:01, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

FWIW I'm with Bbb here. I normally consider 'I will report you to some LEO' claims as in NLT territory since they have the same chilling effect but in this case as the comment appears to be 'I will report you to some LEO because it's their source you're misusing' not 'I will report you to some LEO for criminal investigation', I don't think this is auite in NLT territory. That said, I would discourage further comments of this nature as it does risk having the same chilling effect because we are ultimately talking about a LEO and it's unlikely to help matters. Nil Einne (talk) 03:44, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

No, exactly what they are saying is: "Submit to my moral judgment that this article violates pornography laws by depicting relations between same sex couples or I will contact the FBI to begin a legal battle to make Wikipedia liable for the content. THAT is what they are saying.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Truth painful and is intimidating and bullying, hmmmm that sounds unreasonable to me. You can not get consensus when individuals for what ever reason choose not look at the independent facts of a matter. Just the same who ever has the power to stifle freedom of speech exercise it, the power always makes right I guess. Ranleewright (talk) 04:01, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Here look at the conversation more closely: Violence against Gays and Lesbians[edit] Ranleewright (talk) 04:06, 28 July 2013 (UTC) (Copyright/Attribution violation removed)--Amadscientist (talk) 04:15, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Two things you should read: WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, Wikipedia:Free speech. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Make that three because they need to read our terms of use it seems as well.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

What gives? Copyright/attribution violation when it was a group of posts between me and several other editors, how could that be so, are you making up rules as you go? What are you doing deleting my posts, is that not a violation of freedom of speech? Are you disrespecting me because I'm new to this forum or are you bulling me? Ranleewright (talk) 04:53, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

WE can violate your 'free speech' all we like here. Or rather, you don't have any right to 'free speech' on Wikipedia, any more than anyone else does - see Wikipedia:Free speech. As for removing the huge chunk of text you copy-pasted here, whether it was a copyright violation to do so or not (it might be, due to lack of proper attribution, but I'm no lawyer..), it shouldn't have been pasted anyway. Either post a link, or at least tell us where it is - filling the page with walls of copy-pasted text is disruptive and unnecessary. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:58, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)You may post only your own text without the need to attribute others. However, if you copy text from one place to another within Wikipedia that belongs to other contributors you are required to give attribution to all those who's work you copy. See Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. But, the original post I made already has a link to the discussion so copy pasting that entire chunk was very disruptive.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

So your saying it is a copyright violation to copy or link information in any form from one place to another in the entries or in the talk forums unless it is you. If it is not you then it is disruptive, in violation and unnecessary. No one has any right to free speech on here but you, you can move, delete, rewrite, block, ever what you want to do, you have the freedom to do that but no one else does. You don't want anyone to see what has really been posted so you obscure it or delete it. Sounds strongly of communism in some form to me. Ranleewright (talk) 05:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I wonder what the founder of Wikipedia would think about a statement like that? Ranleewright (talk) 05:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

This is not to say that the Wikimedia Foundation intends to extensively exercise that legal right, if it can be avoided. Wikipedia welcomes all constructive contributors, and is dedicated to assuming good faith with those here to contribute constructively and assist in helping expand access to the sum of human knowledge. I have given constructive cpmtrobitions and have done all in good faith to assist in helping expand human knowledge, but have been blocked, ridiculed to an extent and bullied. The information I put forth was from the FBI website that contains the reports that were used. Also the edits I made were from the same source word for word in some cases to clarify the information being used in the entry, but no that was not good enough. Ranleewright (talk) 05:30, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I fail to see how someone threatening to call the FBI in can fairly accuse others of 'bullying'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

--Amadscientist AndyTheGrump Is abusing their powers as administrators on Wikipedia, I have given constructive contributions and have done all in good faith to assist in helping expand human knowledge, but have been blocked, ridiculed to an extent and bullied when all I have done is put forth factual information from the same sources / reports as in some of the entries on Wikipedia. In this way they are causing the information in these entries to misrepresent the statistics, percentages and facts put forth in these reports. This seems to be contrary to what Wikipedia should represent. Ranleewright (talk) 05:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it. Does this not include administrators??? Ranleewright (talk) 05:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not an administrator. I never claimed to be one. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:05, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Then who is acting like one and deleting some of the stuff I put up? Who says they are going to block me on here? Ranleewright (talk) 06:23, 28 July 2013 (UTC) Also why are you AndyTheGrump changing my edits on entries when I put up the sources for those edits? Ranleewright (talk) 06:26, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

"why are you AndyTheGrump changing my edits on entries when I put up the sources for those edits"? What exactly are you referring to? AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:38, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Before you do anything else, you need to remove and disavow your threat to contact the FBI, or you will be blocked from editing here - guaranteed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

So now we go past bullying and have the threats, I have used Wikipedia as a resource since 2007 and I get threats for my loyalty. Like I posted before, who ever has the power to stifle freedom of speech exercise it, the power always makes right I guess, your doing the same thing you say your fighting against. Ranleewright (talk) 06:54, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

The threats came from you. Withdraw them. Or expect to be prevented from making further threats. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Go ahead, I don't make threats. Ranleewright (talk) 07:13, 28 July 2013 (UTC) Well? Ranleewright (talk) 07:36, 28 July 2013 (UTC) Come on abuse me AndyTheGrump, come on ol powerful one??? Whats going on nothing is happening? Ranleewright (talk) 07:39, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Enough of this unproductive WP:TE nonsense. Issue a block and be done with it. Taroaldo ✉ 08:04, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes issue a block don't even consider the truth, facts and be done with it, break all the grand words of Wikipedia,Wikipedia content is intended to be factual, notable, verifiable with cited external sources, and neutrally presented, the roots on what it is based, show your true colors, prove what you are. Ranleewright (talk) 08:10, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

See  • above. Taroaldo ✉ 08:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Something isn't right here. I think it's true to say that in the thread on the article talk page, I was the only editor who attempted (repeatedly) to incorporate and address Ranleewright's concerns, yet it seemed to be me who Ranleewright chose to ignore. Ranleewright recently edited the article (see here) to include a note which clarified the FBI's definition of a victim, then afterwards on the talk page stated that "the edit I made to the entry clears up the meaning of the percentages referenced in the FBI report" (see here). Yet the day before on the talk page I had explicitly suggested doing exactly the same thing (see here) - note my sentence "Maybe a footnote could also be added after the use of "victims", explaining the FBI definition of that term" - but Ranleewright's reaction was to completely ignore me and instead get on a soapbox (see here). Maybe this was pure oversight, but a similar thing has happened on this page; if people look higher up, they can see I again referred to the 3 suggestions I had made to change the wording in the article. Does Ranleewright state that they hadn't seen those, and ask me to highlight them? No, I am completely ignored again, whereas Ranleewright proves quite capable of responding to other editors. I think that sometimes, for whatever reason, some people just like fighting. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:23, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• As far as the legal threat is concerned, I was not at first convinced as the threat was not credible. However, I find the argument that the editor's intent was to browbeat other editors compelling, and agree that WP:NLT was violated, in spite of the fact that the threat was not credible.

Furthermore, we have a major problem with WP:COMPETENCE here. The editor clearly has fundamental misconceptions about what WP is and how it works. While that is to be expected with a new account, it does not seem that the editor is amenable to improving their competence and constructively edit in a collaborative framework, based on their tendentious comments on the article talk pages and in this discussion. Mentoring and friendly advice are unlikely to be of any avail, as the editor's comments strongly indicate that he is WP:NOTHERE. Because it is reasonable to assume that disruptive and tendentious behavior will continue, an indefinite block would be the best option at this time. If, in the future, the editor can convince an adminitrator that they understand what WP is and how it works, and that they intend to edit productively and collaboratively in compliance with WP policies and guidelines, the account could be unblocked. Until then, this editor is "not ready for prime time". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 08:29, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

All one has to do is look at the editor's contributions list to see that he or she is WP:NOTHERE to help create an encyclopedia. This is clearly a POV-pushing SPA, and not a civil one at that. A block needs to be issued. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• The only comment I'm going to make about sanctions is I don't think the editor has done enough yet to warrant a block. He might deserve a final warning for his approach, but not a block. His edits are a mixture of various components. He actually makes some good points, but they are mixed up with a poor approach, some incompetence, and a hostile manner, particularly when challenged. In any event, I've made some comments as to content on the homosexuality talk page, taking into account some of the points that Ranleewright made, as well as other problems with the language we use in the article, which, in my view, is not fully supported by the source. That now makes me WP:INVOLVED, so I won't be the admin who takes action against Ranleewright, if any action is justified. By the way, to get a fuller picture of Ranleewright, editors might want to look at his edits to the Vegetarianism talk page. His comments there are sometimes odd, but they are less controversial and more human. Please remember that there are people behind these accounts, and we need to be sensitive to that. I'm not saying that justifies persistent disruption, and for all I know he may be a sock, but let's not be too blood-thirsty at this point. He's made only a few article edits so far, all of which have been poor, but none of which has been vandalism.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:18, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think any of the editors calling for a block are "blood-thirsty", and frankly, it's a blatant violation of WP:AGF on your part to say so. Nipping in the bud what is certain to be continued disruption is a legitimate use of a block so that other editors can edit in peace. Remember, they are people, too, and don't deserve to be subjected to hostility and aggression. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Indef block Legal threats, lack of competence, not here to build an encyclopedia, disruption and "I don't here you".--Amadscientist (talk) 17:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• (Uninvolved, non-admin comment) Let's see. Ranleewright's very first post at Talk:Homosexuality was a blatant violation of WP:AGF, alleging "intentional misrepresentation" of the source [my emphasis], and their subsequent posts strongly indicated a WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude. Despite more than one editor's attempts to take Ranleewright seriously and address the substance of the content question they raised, Ranleewright clearly preferred to engage in unconstructive discussion, reiterating the baseless allegation of their first post, calling a good-faith editor's comments "moot and argumentative and suggesting the article be "removed", accusing other editors of wanting to hide "the truth", accusing the article's writers of being "biased", issued the threats that led to this ANI report being filed, and then pointily made an edit they knew would be reverted rather than seeking consensus.

  Bbb23 may be right that there's not enough there for a block just yet, but unless Ranleewright makes a serious effort to assume good faith and "play nicely", it's pretty clear that a block is in the future. Up to y'all how much time is spent on discussing the problem before dealing with it. Rivertorch (talk) 17:15, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  • I try hard to work with difficult editors to find ways to understand their concerns and address them, work with them and attempt some manner of retention of them as contributors. I tend to be like Bbb23 and not necessarily look to block and even look at the overall picture. But, this time Bbb23 is wrong. There is clearly enough to block the editor at this time and their main effort here is to attack a controversial article, rile up its editors and disrupt the project. The editor lacks the competence to work here, and even when directed to information to explain the simplest rules here, such as attribution, they use it as further attacks. Sure, I find the opinion that tying up a man to a fence and beating them to death for their sexual preference as being nothing but sensationalism and gossip to be disturbing, but it is far more telling about their lack of neutrality and the direction they are insisting the article take. Mathew Sheppard is a perfect example of violence against the LGBT community, but the editor is too biased against homosexuality to see that. I have to wonder if the editor even has the maturity to work here, let alone the competence.--Amadscientist (talk) 17:26, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
• Rivertorch is right, it's a matter of how long, not if. This user's combativeness has convinced me to block until the threat is withdrawn, and this will also serve as a cooldown period for a combative editor. Gamaliel (talk) 17:58, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Good call. Looking at Ranleewright's contributions as linked by Rivertorch, it was clear to me that the user was here to push an agenda rather than build an encyclopedia in a collaborative manner. CtP (t • c) 18:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Until the threat(s) are withdrawn, it should be block, and mentorship. Or if all else fails, indefinite block. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.58.60.157 (talk) 05:46, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• Contrary to some opinion, I think he is here to build an encyclopedia - I simply think he believes that ref's must be used his way to support his POV, "or else". The block for NLT is valid, and can be removed as per process. Of course, I half expect to see evasion instead, which opens up a whole different can'o'worms (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Use of talk page while blocked

86.19.115.227 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has made disruptive and offensive use of the block page with the unblock requests they've posted, see page history. Would an admin please remove talk page access. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Done. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:18, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Done. Multiple blocks, multiple abuse of talk page use, enough is enough Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not that long before the block expires. I think I'll warn the editor that an indef is likely to follow if behaviour doesn't improve Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:22, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)I thought we didn't indef IPs unless they're open proxies. Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:22, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Problematic editing by TomPointTwo

I know about all the civility enforcement difficulties etc. and for sure I have no intention to stir up any unnecessary drama but I started a modest thread at Talk:Steve King warning editors there about breaching 3RR during a recent spate of edit-warring. The thread is not long and anyone interested can read it to get the full picture. To cut the story short, I cautioned TomPointTwo about making unhelpful remarks which could provoke another user and I got this response: I found them to be helpful as a motherfucker. TomPointTwo (talk) 07:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC) with an edit-summary feels good man. I reverted per WP:NOTFORUM but TomPointTwo keeps edit-warring his reply into the talkpage, escalating with attacking edit-summaries such as: (Censorship! Fascism! Your subjective deletion of my contribution will not stand! My critical evaluations of previous material is not in violation of WP:TPNO. Read it, son.). I don't find this acceptable. I ask that an admin redact that reply and take any further action as they deem appropriate. In addition TomPointTwo used edit-summaries like (Undid revision 566113825 by MilesMoney (talk) Actually now that you're up against 3RR you can eat it.) trying to bait his opponent during the edit-war at Steve King in which he arrived at 3RR himself but did not seem to recognise it as shown from this discussion at RFPP: [59] and this response at 3RRN: [60]. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 08:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I found my previous talk page comments to be helpful. Helpful as a motherfucker, in fact. My expression of 3RR angst (actually 5RR by that point) was succinct and honest. Suckhonest, maybe. Context can be found at the Steve King Talk page, the 3RR noticeboard and the additional entry Dr K made to the edit war noticeboard. Aside from that I don't have a ton to add. I do so hope my contributions are not interpreted as anything less than "professional" or of the super serious business required of participants here. TomPointTwo (talk) 08:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• He has now resorted to personal attacks against me at 3RRN: [61]. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 09:10, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm confused. Are you crying about my conjecture that you feel dumb? TomPointTwo (talk) 09:13, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Carrying on the battle here is not wise. I suggest you stop. Taroaldo ✉ 09:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The formatting here is a mess, and not of your doing. Whom are you addressing? TomPointTwo (talk) 09:22, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• The situation has been presented and I think it would be best if you both would step back until some outside input has been provided. Carrying on arguments in ANI is not constructive. Also, TomPointTwo, you seem to have a sharp sense of humour (if I have been interpreting some of your comments correctly). But, since this is not being welcomed by the other involved editor, it would be appropriate to tone it right down. What may appear as humourous comments to you appear as uncivil comments to others eg: "[a]re you crying about my conjecture that you feel dumb?" -- Taroaldo ✉ 09:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• You're an affably charitable sort. TomPointTwo (talk) 10:01, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Outside look

As an outsider that has not dug in to the whole problem yet, I must say I dont like TomPointTwo language at all. I suggest you start being polite and write with a friendly tone. It is better for everyone, because it is more civil to read, and people may judge you differently if you use another language. I dont feel like the choice of words is good etiguette, so at least consider reading WP:ETIQ. QED237 (talk) 09:53, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm simply incapable of responding to that in a way that isn't despicably petty as you no doubt speak my language better than I speak yours. Or so I hope. In the mean time I do very much hope you find others whose language is more in tune with your sensibilities. TomPointTwo (talk) 09:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you capable of responding in a way that does not include sarcasm, insults, battleground behaviour, or indeed can you respond in any manner that respects the community nature of this project (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:18, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I am, as repeatedly demonstrated by my edit history. I've also reached that point where I'm totally unconcerned for my wiki-cred and treat the absurd in kind. Self-aggrandizing, self-appointed, fussy wiki bureaucrats and people who want to cite the Colbert Show in a BLP can pretty much go pound sand. TomPointTwo (talk) 11:27, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I woke up to see an edit summary which was inappropriate, and responded to TomPointTwo at their talk page. That occurred before I saw the ANI thread and before I saw the subsequent comments of TomPointTwo. Because I have edited the article, and commented on the content issues, I feel uncomfortable taking admin actions, but we need to send a clear message that the language of TomPointTwo is not acceptable. I urge a warning that further such language will be grounds for an immediate block. Coerced apologies aren't worth much, so I don't wish to coerce one, but I hope TomPointTwo considers one. While it is clear that MilesMoney's style can be exasperating, the editor is new, and unfamiliar with our guidelines, so we can be firm, but do not need to be insulting. --SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:22, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I've fully protected Steve King for three days, and left messages on TomPointTwo's and MilesMoney's talk pages. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 14:59, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll tone it down, there isn't much left to get up about anyway. I'm unsure exactly what it is you want me to apologize for. For being rude to a pain in the ass newbie who was shiting all over a BLP? Or hurting Dr. K's feelings and not deferring to his stern finger wagging? In all seriousness though, if my disregard for the institutional faux mutual regard around here has caused this much hyper-ventilating then people will either put on their big kid pants, and move on or they'll serve my up some block that doesn't much affect me anyway so they can feel better about that intolerable Tom jerk on the Steve King article. TomPointTwo (talk) 22:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I was watching the RFPP thread with growing incredulity; TomPointTwo was behaving bizarrely, and neither user seemed to understand what the other was saying, creating a vicious circle. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Your evaluation is without merit regarding my replies at RFPP. I was replying directly to TomPointTwo's comments and he was shifting the replies ever so slightly to create the conundrum that you see there. He exhibited exactly the same attitude at 3RRN where he never admitted to edit-warring despite multiple detailed explanations from my part and made multiple false statements about my evaluation of his behaviour as having reached 3RR as you can see from the link here. At 3RRN I had to tell him not to put words in my mouth due his false statements about me. He also repeated multiple times that I had to "read WP:3RR" when I told him that he was also edit-warring and in one of his replies he even called me a clever little wordsmith, repeated that "I had to read WP:3RR" and implied that I was "dumb"; all for telling him that he was responsible for edit-warring. At both 3RRN and RFPP he feigned misunderstanding of my replies and I think that kind of reaction from TomPointTwo is some short of defence mechanism when he does not want to face his responsibility. At RFPP he became patronising and insisted multiple times that I made an error by reporting there. In one of his replies he patronisingly implies that "I had it bacwards" by not filing a single report at 3RRN only for his perceived opponent with a patronising edit-summary re Dr. K: Oh, I'll do it then implying that I filed the wrong report. In another patronising reply at RFPP when I told him that his newbie opponent was not warned about 3RR and thus any report about MilesMoney at 3RRN would not result in his block he sarcastically retorted that I was "a member of the cabal" with a sarcastic edit-summary: *Gasp*. All part of his strategy to shift the blame to his newbie opponent. It was his version of Who's on First? trying to evade his responsibility about the edit-war and ignore my clear comments about it. Either that or he has genuine trouble reading other editors' replies no matter how clear. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 16:30, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

This is very troubling behavior, both here and on the article in question. Also there's fun incidents like calling another editor a liar in his recent edit history. Scrapping with a combative newbie is one thing, but his responses to Dr. K. and QED237 are uncalled for. I'm tempted to block, but that might only encourage anti-social behavior. I think perhaps a better solution would be to topic ban him from this particular article for the duration of this particular editing conflict while more level-headed editors sort it out. Gamaliel (talk) 17:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Well I called him a liar because he was transparently full of shit. I could have pretended we didn't all know he was transparently full of shit and done the phony, passive aggressive "I'm going to assume good faith here" routine but that's incredibly taxing. And old. I'm unsure what you're angling for in a topic ban, I almost never edit Steve King's page, I don't even remember why it' on my watchlist. I just saw a new, pushy editor doing something belligerently stupid so I popped in to let him know. If it would make you feel better, like you've "done something" about all of whatever this is then have at it. TomPointTwo (talk) 22:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

One of his edit summaries here: "I have some tissues left over here. BAWWW party, my place?" Assuming he isn't a troll, I would also consider his earlier comments on this thread ("totally unconcerned for my wiki-cred", "fussy wiki bureaucrats [...] can pretty much go pound sand") an admission that this behavior isn't going to stop. I support a block. ProtossPylon 20:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree. He is on a campaign of self-righteousness and denigrates and belittles any comments concerning his personal attacks as well as his edit-warring behaviour and does not show any kind of sign that he understands the impact of his behaviour on a collaborative editing environment. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:45, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I've been a super big meanie over the past 12 hours. And one time I called a liar a liar. I'm pretty sure I've insinuated a few editors are dealing with cognitive handicaps. If you go back far enough you might even find an instance or two where I have, without any proper perspective on our reverent air of community collaboration, told someone that their contributions were garbage. If I'm not blocked soon I could fly off the handle and, again, remove non-policy compliant garbage and even hurt someone's sense of self importance, or worse, their emotional well being. TomPointTwo (talk) 22:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes as TomPointTwo writes, if he is not blocked soon he could hurt the emotional well-being of other editors. If he does that, it will hurt our encyclopedia. I thus support a block. (NB I had an interaction with TomPointTwo in May 2011 here. (sdsds - talk) 23:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I initially supported only a topic ban, but based on the comments of other editors and his latest comments here, he's talked himself into a block. It's clear that discussion won't resolve the issue. He clearly understands the problem, but he is clearly determined to not only disregard the issue, but exacerbate the problem as much as he can, so this is a matter of merely self-fulfilling prophecy. And based on what I'm interpreting as his assent above, I don't see why we shouldn't also place a topic ban on him for this article for the duration of this current editing conflict. I'm calling it a night, so if there is consensus here for an unblock or changing the block, you need not contact me first. Gamaliel (talk) 00:45, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The block seems a sensible move given the latest comments. I'm not so sure about the topic ban though - not the idea of a topic ban per se, but whether we have the authority to impose one. There hasn't been a community discussion leading to a ban, so I don't think we can impose a ban under that authority. Is the article in question under any form of discretionary sanctions? — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 03:21, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

New user, likely sock--anyone know the master?

A new account, BrewJay (talk · contribs) appeared, and its first edits were to WP:TPG and WT:MEDRS. That certainly seems to me to not be a new user. While I considered bringing the matter here first, the user had a "mailto:" link in her/his signature (again, a customized signature is a clear sign of a non-new user). I didn't want that to propagate any further. If you look at this edit you can see the email address. Does anyone know who this is? Or have I needlessly overreacted? Qwyrxian (talk) 11:05, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

This user seems to be an IP regular at Talk:Cruciferous vegetables (see Special:Contributions/75.152.119.213, Special:Contributions/75.152.127.203, Special:Contributions/75.152.117.14 and Special:Contributions/75.152.124.222). In response to one series of edits, I have expressed concern about behaviour which, in WP terms, may be considered disruptive, including a specious attempt to game the system [62]. Fwiw, I believe the MED project at least should be spared this sort of disingenuous time-wasting. 86.161.251.139 (talk) 15:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I've just stated on BrewJay's talk page that I still believe he's a disruptive sock, but that since I don't have definitive evidence or a specific master, I won't oppose an unblock if he should choose to request one and another admin is willing to grant it. My full explanation is there. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Christian1985

This user persistently dismisses any reference he disagrees with as being "left-wing" and "biased". Also repeatedly attacks new users and discourages them from becoming full members of wikipedia. Numerous complaints have been made against him in the past but nonaction has so far been taken to warn him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.166.8 (talk) 12:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Considering this outburst of yours, I must warn you against the boomerang effect. Favonian (talk) 12:45, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP for 48 hours for personal attacks and edit warring to reinstate highly negative information based on non-RS. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:13, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for acting on this malicious report against me. To the IP user, I have done nothing wrong. I do not attack new users at all and I have NEVER discouraged anyone from becoming a full member. You cannot go around hurling malicious accusations at me. You need to learn to respect other users. Christian1985 (talk) 20:54, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Swamilive seems to be back

I decided to take this here instead of WP:SPI because it's so obvious. For example, he added this to User talk:Delicious carbuncle, which is definitely classic Swamilive. The IP he used definitely seems to be in the same range as previously used IPs, too, such as the ones used to vandalize Winnipeg Folk Festival-related articles back in 2009–2010. For further info, check this out: 216.26.215.100 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log)). --SamX‧☎‧✎‧S 13:27, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Legal threat from User:Anarcocapitalista austriaco

Please see message posted by new user Anarcocapitalista austriaco here: [63]. – S. Rich (talk) 15:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I've told him that if the threat isn't immediately removed I will block him indefinitely Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:58, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

This might not be a legal threat. User:Anarcocapitalista austriaco says that a third person might sue Wikipedia. He doesn't claim to be or to represent this third person. Please account for the possibility that the user's message is a good-faith warning about someone else's threat to take legal action. —Psychonaut (talk) 11:25, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Inappropriate use of talk page by blocked user 86.155.220.249

Resolved

 – Talk page access revoked for duration

86.155.220.249 (talk), after being blocked, replaced his talk page with French text. Can his talk page access be revoked for the duration of his block? Jackmcbarn (talk) 15:38, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Since it's a short block, I've changed the settings as requested and left a message Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Help with rangeblock requested

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I've got a very disruptive user posting from, so far, 84.52.101.196 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 78.25.121.173 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 78.25.121.197 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 78.25.123.86 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). The user revenges themselves on people who revert/block them by coming back with another IP to revert random edits by the people who have offended them, such as myself and Thomas.W. See especially my warning here, and this thread on my talkpage. I've blocked the first-mentioned two IPs, but it's getting a bit boring. Uh, that rangeblock thing? Anybody? Bishonen | talk 17:55, 28 July 2013 (UTC).

There's a rangeblock tool that works well. I'd treat the 84 address and the 78 addresses with two different blocks, though, to reduce collateral damage. Gamaliel (talk) 18:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Gamaliel, but I find that stuff difficult, not least knowing how long a block you should give in those cases. The disruption has been long-term — again, see here — so it should be as long as possible, yet of course balanced against the risk of collateral damage. Could somebody who's good at that do it, please? Bishonen | talk 18:10, 28 July 2013 (UTC).

An anon-only block of 78.25.120.0/22 for a month or so might be a good place to start; I've gone ahead and done that. The 84.* addresses will have to be handled separately. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 18:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Based on my previous experience with him you can leave the 84.-address as it is, unless you want to give it a longer block (it has already been given a 3 month block), since it with all probability is his static home IP. When his main IP address is blocked he starts using other addresses, like the 78.* IPs he's been using now, but, as far as I can remember at least, never other 84.*-addresses. Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 18:45, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Basalisk and Thomas. I think we're done here for now. Maybe I'll even dare do the next rangeblock of 78.25.120.0/22 myself if they erupt again in a month's time. (Wow.) Bishonen | talk 22:07, 28 July 2013 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Giano

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I am not sure how to proceed with the editor User:Giano - that seems to have a problem communication in a mature fashion and is attacking me every time I come across them. What has lead me here is the most recent blanking of a post as seen here. I have only encountered this editor on 2 or 3 occasions. My problem with this editor started when they simply called me lazy - then progressed with post making fun of my MS as seen at Wikipedia talk:Accessibility dos and don'ts#Quotations. I let all this go as I assumed I would not see the editor again - but then I encountered them at Talk:Montacute House#Article mentioned at Manual of Style and the same type of behavior started again - that progressed to calling me a troll at an MOS conversation, deleting my post ect. The editor seems to believe I have some sort of an associations with infoboxes and related editors - for the recorded I don't add or removed infoboxes and have never reverted the editor in question contributions. They seem to have a problem that I am an advocate for accessibility for the disable and our readers at large.I am looking for a small sanction - so that this type of behavior has been documented In case it happens again in the future. This is the type of behavior needs to be nipped in the butt. Moxy (talk) 18:06, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Prior to this notice, I reverted the edits which deleted Moxy's post; and left a note on both editors' talk pages, pointing that out. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:11, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec) How Freudian. Giano has been nipped in the butt before now. Andy, surely you're aware that you're the absolutely last person who should leave notes on Giano's page. That's completely not constructive. Bishonen | talk 18:13, 28 July 2013 (UTC).

Thanks Bishonen, I would not bother to get too involved, nobody in their right mind is going to take this seriously. Moxy is always very Freudian, he found me 'appealing' earlier today. Mabbit and Moxy patrolling in union remind me of a Wikipedia essay I wrote years ago [64]. Don't bother commenting to them, it will only serve as encouragement.  Giano  18:23, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

You think I should not have notified him of the revert? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:33, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, exactly, that's what I think. The new notification system informs users when their edits are reverted. Bishonen | talk 19:07, 28 July 2013 (UTC).

It doesn't tell them why. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I will let each of our reputations and interactions with editors speak for themselves. if you where to actually investigate before making wild accusations you would see that I and Mabbit dont see eye to eye on many things (currently in a civil dispute that is progressing well) . -- Moxy (talk) 18:36, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't know any of the history of this, particularly betweeen Giano and Andy apparently, but I could really live without the continous self-indulgent sarcasm. Giano, Moxy clearly meant appalling, not appealing, and your constant mocking is not constructive - and you do it with such relish. On that one talk page, it was unrelenting.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh no <sob> are you telling me that Moxy does not find me 'appealing'? Why not - is it something I've done? Next you'll be telling me that Moxy doesn't want to 'nip my butt' - I was rather looking forward to that. You North Americans are all tease and no action.  Giano  19:55, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

It is very clear you dont have the maturity to engage editors in a respectful manner. I think you need a holiday to reflect on how you could better interact with people in the future. I am now formally asking for a 1 month block in light of the ongoing incivility and mockery. -- Moxy (talk) 20:06, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Moxy, telling Giano he looks like a fool in this exchange and telling him to "grow up" in your edit summary does not advance the cause of civility either. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:06, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

You are correct after being attack many many many times I voiced my concern - then posted here. As would anyone who is being bullied and harassed. -- Moxy (talk) 22:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

You really can't have it both ways Moxy. If Giano is blocked for incivility then so should you be. Eric Corbett 23:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

And how is that? Show me how I was anything but very tolerant of his behavior for the past few months. All can see the events that took place and the order things happened in. We are simply tired of having to deal with editors like this. You may personally like the person and think there cool, but that does not excuse the behavior all of us can see clear as day. if this were an IP there would not even be this tlak. -- Moxy (talk) 00:34, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, Giano has always engaged me in a respectful manner, and I have fired back in the same spirit. A quick overview of clashes between English and Italian battleships will give an idea of the results! If a holiday is needed, we could all meet up in Malta. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:08, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

This may be your experiences with this editor - but as demonstrated above if the editor in question does not like you they go out of there way to make sure they insult you and even go so far as to delete posts. Not sure what others think but this type of behavior is simply not acceptable to us older editors. -- Moxy (talk) 22:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I think you're taking this entirely too personally. I very much doubt that Giano has an opinion of you at all as a person, as I assume you don't know each other in real life. But you have to remind yourself that he worked hard on the Montacute House article to get it to where it is today, and inevitably he'd prefer not to see it turn into the usual WP grey goo. Mabbett's involvement has clearly not helpful either, given his long-standing dispute with all and sundry about infoboxes. Eric Corbett 00:08, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Brilliant spin on NPA. If you don't know each other in real-life, and you don't have a declared "opinion" of that person as a person, there logically can be no "personal attacks". Doc talk 01:46, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I never mentioned NPA, so I can only assume that you must be among those who see "personal attacks" around every corner and in every word. Eric Corbett 10:20, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

You all can do or say whatever you like, but my view is that Giano has been and will probably continue to be uncivil. And warning him of it will do scant good as he seems to be protected. If I were you, Moxy, I'd ignore him completely. He'll just feed on any response you make. Indifference is best.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree will just ignore the person - But do think the community needs address editors of this nature - they are a determent to the project at large and the community needs to step-up and confront bullies like this -- Moxy (talk) 23:53, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Just a suggestion but if Giano is being uncivil then someone should block him for a day or 2 to think about it. He's not an admin, just a regular old run of the mill editor so it shouldn't be a problem. Part of the problem with this place is that we are too tolerant of bullies and uncivil editors, especially those with admin tools. We shouldn't be afraid to block them for it. Kumioko (talk) 23:59, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Why not start by blocking a few of the bullying and uncivil admins if you want to make a difference? If there was no bullying from them and their acolytes there would be no temptation to respond to it. Eric Corbett 00:02, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I completely agree, unfortunately the only thing harder than becoming an admin is getting rid of one. With that said though at the rate the admins are resigning their tools or stopping editing due to things like VE it may not matter. In a few months time there won't be anyone left. Kumioko (talk) 00:11, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I left Wikipedia for a year, and come back and the same people are being discussed about at AN/I for the same reasons and with the same results ("let's ignore them"). How sad admins will block some people but not others, and those that get bullied and stand up for themselves are told "well you were uncivil too". There's a difference between standing up for yourself and just being an ass; we should never attack the victim. I remember one person who I took to AN/I saying "I don't have to defend my actions, I just have to bloody the victim" which is a statement that comes from rape cases where the defense was to bloody the victim. Some here are pros at doing that. It should be against policy. Instead we enshrine in policy that you shouldn't be bringing this to AN/I unless you yourself are spotless. It's a shame and at least in the real world our laws have been changed to prevent such defense. Wikipedia however has not been so advanced.Camelbinky (talk) 00:08, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• Very disappointing to see no actions has been taken yet on the concerns raised by a long time editor like myself. Not sure what type of community can run smoothly when concerns of this nature are not addressed on the spot. We spend lots of time and effort trying to have a collaborative environment and even set out policies to guide us all. Editors have an expectation of being able to work and voice an opinion without being insulted or posts deleted. I find it discouraging that the admin community does not take things of this nature seriously despite all the concerns raised about theses problems as of late. Moxy (talk) 03:23, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I've argued for the past year, how the administrative system seems to have changed. It all depends on who they want to keep tabs on the most. If it's not so blatantly obvious it's someone who is INTENTIONALLY doing harm, then they'll act. but lately, ANI has been moving very sluggish. i brought up a topic of edit war three times over something an editor had no consensus. and although, it is claimed to be an offense of temporary block. It has never been addressed.Lucia Black (talk) 03:30, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I am not up to speed on all the admins - but do have a question - do we still have admins that were here 6 or 7 years ago? There was a time that things of this nature were handled with hast and gusto. I think all the badgering (hate posts) admins have had as of late may have cause many to question their actions and leads to no action being taken at all sometimes. Us normal editors seem to be left in the wind trying to deal with all the incivility that has gotten out of control in the past few years. -- Moxy (talk) 03:48, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The reason that no one has taken up your ridiculous request to block me Moxy is because I have not been uncivil to you; speaking bluntly and frankly are not the same as being uncivil at all. Most people (including me) when they realise that another editor finds them grossly irritating do their best to stay away from them - they do not pursue them around the project commenting and wanting absurd changes to their edits - especially when those pages are about subjects on which they know nothing. I could say that goes for Mabbitt too. Now as I have told you before, for your own sake, it would be a good idea for you to find something productive to do and put your silly vendetta aside. There are millions of terrible Wiki-pages and stubs desperate for your earnest attention - I suggest you go and find them and leave perfectly good GAs alone, that way you won't be making a fool of yourself here.  Giano  06:33, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

You appear to be right no one cares about your odd behavior and the way you conduct yourself. As for making a fool of my self - I disagree we all here can see that your not up to par when it come to your interaction skills. I can only hope in the future as you become an adult and enter the real world you will come to understand how to communicate with your peers and those that disagree with you. Surprised I did not even get a sorry - the youth of today simply have no manners. I also hope this does not embolden you and others to not give a shit and keep being uncivil. -- Moxy (talk) 06:48, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Where have you got this strange idea from that Giano is a youth? And why in the context of your complaint do you consider it acceptable for you to make such personal remarks? Eric Corbett 10:18, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• The destructiveness of those pursuing the technophile line in the infobox wars against those who build content cannot be overstated. Re the OP question ("I am not sure how to proceed with the editor User:Giano"), the answer is to leave them alone. If you notice Giano damaging an article or driving off content builders, please post at ANI, but until then, just drop the matter. Who knows, perhaps WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes will resolve the issue. Johnuniq (talk) 07:33, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Ahem, I'd advise Moxy to drop the stick. Otherwise I may have to bring up evidence about a certain editor logging out to attack others anonymously back in April. This particular guy used his IP address (a Canadian one, no less) so he could make up a new identity and pretend to be an "ex-Wikipedian" who had been treated so badly he had had to leave the whole project. Unfortunately, said editor failed to disguise some very striking stylistic quirks, making identification rather easy. In fact, the whole attempt was so laughably bad and immature that I and another editor decided not to seek any admin action at the time. However, circumstances can change... --Folantin (talk) 07:55, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Great just great - an old editor come here with some concerns about behavior and gets threaten by those hes asking for assistance from. Great work guys just great. This whole process has been very eye opening.-- Moxy (talk) 08:12, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Um, it wasn't an old editor, it was a certain user pretending to be an old editor. As you probably remember. --Folantin (talk) 08:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and you should probably familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG before brinnging complaints to ANI. --Folantin (talk) 08:54, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I see Giano has a huge group of friends willing to stick up for him at every turn. There is simply noting a lone content editor that does not engage in Wikipedia friendships can do here. I simply dont have the network of friends to help as he does. -- Moxy (talk)

Give it a rest. --Folantin (talk) 09:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Brandonworld

Can an admin please look at this guy's contributions? Mostly in his userspace appear to be hoaxes and/or articles fictionalised entries about himself and his friends. Also managed to unhelpfully move his talk page to User talk:Brandonworld/May Fitzgerald and Myra Solosolg which shows other stuff that's been deleted. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:46, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

67.87.140.155 (he's doing it again!)

Looks like 67.87.140.155, has returned from doing a spree on adding fake volumes to Disney CD collections such as Disney's Greatest Hits, Classic Disney: 60 Years of Musical Magic, The Disney Collection: The Best-Loved Songs from Disney Motion Pictures, Television, and Theme Parks, and even his talk page. I just gave him a only warning. ACMEWikiNet (talk) 19:54, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

He's only hit two pages today. I've restored back to the last stable versions. If someone could do a longer block this time. He's done quite a bit of vandalism since the last block it appears. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 21:46, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I've given a two-week block this time. I would have done more but the gizmo says it's a dynamic IP. If you folks could check and repair any remaining damage that would be awesome. Thanks, -- Diannaa (talk) 22:46, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Slavić

Slavić (talk · contribs) has thrown yet another hissy fit at Talk:Bulcsú László, IMO proving they're not here to build an encyclopedia - they seem to have an agenda in promoting the subject of that article and when people call them out on these fringe views, they respond with assorted insults. I gave them the benefit of the doubt in June when they re-created the article deleted after AfD, but it only led to a civility block enforced by myself. Today they started pushing their POV again, I was less patient but I again tried to reason with them on Talk, but it was apparently just delaying the inevitable - they still treated the other editors with nationalist slurs in their last talk page post.

Note also that the same person has already been blocked on the Croatian Wikipedia for pushing the same agenda. This is almost amusing - the Croatian wiki editors have engaged in a public feud with the English wiki editors over the Croatian language issue, and yet Slavić has managed to alienate both. We might need a new kind of an anti-barnstar for this kind of a feat.

So, would another admin please wield the axe the second time so that I don't have to. Thanks in advance. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:45, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Blocked indef. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive800#Slavić for some more background. I agree this is a case of WP:NOTHERE: combination of obvious tendentious agenda, frequent personal attacks and a deliberately impenetrable idiosyncratic style of talkpage contributions that makes constructive collaboration with him near-impossible. This [65] latest affectation of a "purist" mangled English really was the straw that broke the camel's back. (Seriously, "does not havest a clue", from an editor who prides himself of his linguistic achievements, deserves a block for mangling English grammar if nothing else.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Cryellow

The last days Cryellow (talk · contribs) started to behave disruptively. First at The Sherry-Netherland[66]. I don't know much about this, so I will contact Ken for this. The reason I'm reporting him/her is because at Pope Benedict XVI s/he has been inserting this text that clearly violates the BLP policy by inserting alleged ideas that he resigned for contentious reasons and not personal reasons, the worst part is that s/he believes that suggested information is factually correct. Also he violated the BLP policy with me, and possibly Elizium23, with the comment "sorry to shatter your Catholicism" at the moment he assumed that at least I was Catholic, when I'm not. While I was writting this report, he continued the BLP violations with this. It is clear that this user comes here to insert his/her points of view, and believes this place is a vehicle for doing that. Tbhotch.^™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 07:28, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I noticed the edit warring. The BLP violations on Benedict XVI are unacceptable. Equally well this personal attack on BMK is unacceptable.[67] Mathsci (talk) 07:34, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

1) I am having problems with adding the following:

In the 1969 Academy Award winning movie "Midnight Cowboy," Dustin Hoffman's character Ratso Rizzo tells Joe Buck (Jon Voigt) that he can reach him at the "Sherry-Netherlands Hotel" after setting up a con job in which Joe is burned and Ratso, who is squatting in a condemned building and could never walk into the Sherry Netherland without being ejected let alone live there, doesn't want Joe to ever find him. 

to this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sherry-Netherland

when I add it, Beyond my Ken immediately removes it. I opened up a TALK discussion on the matter and left the TALK open for MONTHS, after which the majority of those who commented agreed that my edit should remain, but still Beyond my Ken removes it.

SEE: the Sherry-Netherland Wikipedia page, Sherry-Netherland talk page, and MY (cryellow) talk page.

2) Same basic issue on this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

where I am adding the following to the article:

It has recently been suggested that Pope Benedict XVI resigned because he himself was part of the Roman Catholic sex abuse scandals, that he was being blackmailed by those with proof of his complicity, and that he resigned to avoid a scandal.

and someone Tbhotch keeps edit warring with me to remove it. I have referenced two sources, and yet he keeps undoing my revision.

---

I think the over all issue is that you have people like Tbhotch and Beyond my Ken who think they OWN Wikipedia, and bully less frequent users into removing any edits to what they view as “their” Wikipedia articles. Cryellow (talk) 07:36, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

This kind of edit is highly disruptive and shows zero knowledge of WP:BLP.[68] Mathsci (talk) 07:39, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I looked over Beyond my Ken's TALK page, and it is one torrential dispute after another where Beyond my Ken reverts edits to "his" Wikipedia pages, and then foulmouths the users who dare to debate him. Cryellow (talk) 07:42, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Really? And that gives you the right to insert smearing speculation about Benedict XVI being involved in child abuse; and independently to make puerile personal attacks on BMK? Mathsci (talk) 07:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The issues here are whether or not my edits should remain. On the Sherry Netherland page, the edit should remain after the majority of those who considered it, even Beyond my Ken's "buddy" felt that it should remain.

Whether my edit remains on the Pope Benedict XVI page will depend on whether it is okay to include substantiated but not absolutely verified facts about a person in a biography. As a matter of fact, there is NO biography of any historical figure that does not include some speculation in it, and for you to say that biographies do not include speculation would mean then that there need be only one version of a biography of a person, which is absurd. You may pick up ten different biographies of John Lennon for example, and in some it is claimed that he had a consummated sexual affair with Brian Epstein, and in others this claim is disputed. Yet, all of the biographies are still valid ones. Cryellow (talk) 07:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The issue is how disruptive your edits are at the moment. You should not be making these infantile personal attacks. Please reread WP:NPA and WP:BLP, and note that the "L" there stands for "living". Lennon and Epstein died some time ago. Ratzinger is still alive. Mathsci (talk) 08:00, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• Wikipedia takes a dim view of BLP violations. Continuing disruption in this fashion isn't advisable. Taroaldo ✉ 08:18, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
• The Cryellow account was created in March 2008, yet the editor has not learned anything about core Wikipedia policies. Inserting "it has been suggested" in front of an extreme claim does not entitle an editor to violate WP:BLP, WP:EW, and WP:RS. Would an admin please issue a final warning and close this. Cryellow should ask at WP:HELPDESK for basic information about policies in order to avoid strong sanctions. Johnuniq (talk) 11:23, 29 July 2013 (UTC)