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Requesting RfC be re-closed

An RfC recently asked how to summarize a section at People's Mujahedin of Iran. Stefka Bulgaria (SB) and I (VR) offered competing versions. @Chetsford: closed as consensus for SB's version, but graciously encouraged me to seek review here; I'm asking the RfC be re-opened re-closed.

• The RfC was closed Nov 29‎. Yet there was active discussion on Nov 27-28 on whether the proposals violated WP:DUE([1][2]) or MOS:WEASEL ([3]). But wikipedia has no WP:DEADLINE.

• Secondly, the SB proposal mass removes longstanding content. Major divergences from the status quo require a strong consensus (as pointed out by El_C). Although the RfC was closed as "seven editors support the summary proposal while three are opposed", I count 10 supports for SB and 7 for VR. The closer felt the opposition to SB's version was ambiguous; I disagree and have provided the exact comments (see below "Vote counts"). Given this, the policy considerations below and closer finding both sides' arguments "equally compelling", the result leans to "no consensus". Re-opening the RfC might change that. Also, there is recent indication that RfCs on that page are voted on without being read, so result should be based on policy not votes.

• Lastly, there were serious policy issues with SB proposal that no one responded to. This version's weasel wording ("various sources...while other sources...") implies a WP:FALSEBALANCE. Academic sources overwhelming say that MEK is a cult (list of sources provided here and here). Even SB acknowledged that no source actually dismisses the cult claims. Yet SB's version balances the opinion of peer-reviewed books and journal articles against those in newspaper op-eds. The argument that high-quality RS can't be counterbalanced with low quality ones was made repeatedly ([4][5]) but never got a response.

• • It was pointed out (but never responded to) that SB's version inaccurately implies that MEK barring children from a military camp was the only or main reason for the cult designation, but the sources instead give different, multiple reasons for the cult designation. This is worded as a strawman and misrepresents what one of the sources SB cited says (see below "What the BBC source says").

• • By contrast, most objections against VR proposal aren't policy-based. This policy-based objection was promptly corrected ([6][7]). I repeatedly asked for clarification of objections ([8][9]) but no one responded except Bahar1397 (and our discussion was cutoff by the closure).

Vote counts

Stefka Bulgaria's proposal was supported by MA Javadi, Idealigic, Adoring nanny, Nika2020, Bahar1397, Alex-h, Ypatch, Barca and HistoryofIran (only said "Yes per Stefka.") Vice regent's proposal was supported by Mhhossein, Pahlevun, Sa.vakilian, Ali Ahwazi, Jushyosaha604 and Ameen Akbar. The closer felt opposition to SB's proposal was ambiguous, but I disagree and providing the statements below. Mhhossein said "No, for multiple reasons..." Ali Ahwazi said "No... The proposed text doesn't represent the reliable-sources based on WP:DUE." Pahlevun said "...I strongly reject the proposal on the grounds that it contradicts with WP:RS" @Jushyosaha604:, said " The OP who started the RFC removed too much information" (only pinging because the closer felt their position was ambiguous) Sa.vakilian said "No...this RFC is not acceptable per DUE" Vice regent, said "Stefka's proposed version gives WP:FALSEBALANCE to both views".

What the BBC source says

SB's version says The MEK has barred children in Camp Ashraf in an attempt to have its members devote themselves to their cause of resistance against the Iranian regime, a rule that has given the MEK reputation of being "cultish". This wording makes it seem that children are simply barred from MEK headquarters, a strawman argument, even though one of the sources cited makes it clear that this is decades' long child displacement. It says, Not only was the MEK heavily armed and designated as terrorist by the US government, it also had some very striking internal social policies. For example, it required its members in Iraq to divorce. Why? Because love was distracting them from their struggle against the mullahs in Iran. And the trouble is that people love their children too. So the MEK leadership asked its members to send their children away to foster families in Europe. Europe would be safer, the group explained. Some parents have not seen their children for 20 years and more. And just to add to the mix, former members consistently describe participating in regular public confessions of their sexual fantasies. You might think that would set alarm bells ringing - and for some US officers it did. One colonel I spoke to, who had daily contact with the MEK leadership for six months in 2004, said that the organisation was a cult, and that some of the members who wanted to get out had to run away. The source also mentions that "no children rule" as being only one of many reasons (mandatory divorce, members not allowed to leave) for MEK's cultishness.

VR _talk 15:51, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Changing to request to re-close.VR _talk 19:41, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

The RfC was opened on 2 October 2020, and there had been absence of new participation towards the time Chetsford closed it. As Chetsford explained to VR, the RfC process "is a finite discursive arena designed to achieve a specific purpose and not an infinite chat room for open-ended dialog." Also involved editor Mhhossein requested for the RfC to be closed by an experienced admin, and that's what happened here. After the close, VR was advised to continue discussion on either the article Talk page or personal Talk pages, but both Mhhossein and VR have a tendency to instead complain each time a RfC in this article doesn't close in their favor, making it exhausting for everyone involved. The RfC was opened for two months, and was closed by an experienced admin who gave a thorough and policy-based rational for their close. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

• That RFC ran for way too long. VR constantly commented on votes that didn't support his proposal, so when he says "there was active discussion", that's basically him disagreeing with opposite votes. Secondly, the consensus was not to mass remove longstanding content, but to condense a lot of POV. Chestford's vote count was accurate and his closing remarks carefully followed guidelines. Stefka's proposal was more neutral, that's why it won consensus. Lastly, there weren't any "serious policy issues with Stefka's proposal that no one responded to." VR and Mhhossein have been arguing WP:FALSEBALANCE to keep in the article multiple quotes repeating "Democratic Iranian opposition political party = cult" while Mhhossein is removing multiple sources about a misinformation campaign that the Iran’s theocratic regim is running to characterize this political party a cult. Alex-h (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

• Endorse. Clearly the correct close.—S Marshall T/C 00:58, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

• • The closer said he has counted the votes. There are 9 supports and 7 opposes which use policies in their comments. Moreover, this page is under CONSENSUS REQUIRED restriction, and the admin who himself has proposed Wikipedia:Consensus required and has the most experience regarding page said earlier this restriction should be taken into account, given the fact that "key longstanding text" is condensed by ~60%. Such a mass change requires a strong consensus. Not to mention that VR has raised quite fair concerns which are not responded to. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:09, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Actually, this is what the closing admin said in their closing comment:

"By head counting, seven editors support the summary proposal while three are opposed. Looking more closely at the arguments there was an unambiguous consensus that the text in question needs to be shortened, which is consistent with past discussions. Insofar as to whether or not the proposed alternative text should be the text used to shorten the article, "yes" !votes argued the current text was WP:UNDUE and the proposal accurately and duely represented all content in a more succinct and readable form. The "no" !votes stated that the sources used to support the current weighting of perspectives were not entirely drawn from WP:RS and that the proposed alternative text was, therefore, not DUE. The "no" !votes also stated that, while "cult" was a contentious label, there was an abundance of RS that used this term to refer to the Mujahedin. In rebuttal, "yes" !voters said that the word "cult" remained in the article but was reduced in redundancy by the proposal which was not inconsistent with the closing decision in a previous RfC on this topic, or the policy aspect of the objection raised by the "no" !votes. Arguments advanced by both "yes" and "no" editors were equally compelling and virtually every comment cited a relevant policy and made a logical argument as to why policy supported their position. In these cases, our SOP (as described in WP:NHC) requires the closer "to close by judging which view has the predominant number of responsible Wikipedians supporting it". There is a consensus to adopt both the shortening proposal, and the specific text advanced in that proposal by Stefka Bulgaria. An alternate proposal by VK did not achieve a consensus, however, a number of persons who registered a "yes" opinion in that proposal did not express any opinion at all in the original proposal. Given that, it would be okay to open a new and more focused discussion as to whether or not the just-adopted shortened form should be modified in the way suggested by VK, however, keeping this entire RfC open for that reason alone isn't justified and would be unnecessarily confusing."

And here is the conversation that followed on the closer's talk page after this close. All concerns were addressed (in the RfC process and after by the closing admin). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 18:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Don't bludgeon the process, please. Thanks.--Mhhossein ^talk 05:39, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Mhhossein, I added the closing admins' evaluation (which was needed after your comment). Please do not edit my comments. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

You could simply put the diff and everyone could see what you are talking about. That's clearly bludgeoning to unnecessarily put the whole text wall here and would like to ask you avoid doing that in future.--Mhhossein ^talk 14:37, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

• Not sure what the specific disagreement is about as I haven't followed the discussion too closely, but I'd be happy to clarify and add more details to my comments in case the RFC was reopened. Apologies for the ambiguity. Jushyosaha604 (talk) 20:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

• Neutral as Closer (but no fundamental objection to reopening): I closed the RfC in question and addressed some of the concerns the OP (and others) raised above at my Talk page here. However, as I said there, I think this was an exceptionally close decision. The OP is an outstanding editor who makes strong points in favor of reopening that are based on a GF interpretation of policy. While I don't agree with them and didn't, therefore, believe I could unilaterally reopen the RfC I would have no objection if the community decided to reopen it. Chetsford (talk) 21:11, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

• Re-open Re-close. Jeez, what a mess. This reminds me of what happened when the last RfC on the cult designation was closed/amended back in September (by L235). Same thing now in November (December)? Nothing learned? Yes, there remains a strong consensus to trim. But my sense is that there's only a strong consensus to trim within reason. In the last RfC, the proposal was to trim 800 words down to 40 words. This RfC proposes to trim it down to 80 words. Now, I realize it's double the word count, but whether one is cutting down the material to 1/20th of its former size or to 1/10th of it — either one of these still amounts to an enormous reduction. So, in either case, I would submit that there would need to be a strong consensus to trim that much sourced content. Whereas, if one were to propose trimming much less, a rough consensus ought to do. Anyway, having a cult designation super-trim RfC every 3 months is too much. Had I still been active as an admin in the article (with thanks to Vanamonde93 for picking up the torch), I probably would have barred this latest RfC from even proceeding (as such). It just isn't a sensible way to engage the problem at hand. It seems like a one-sided approach and a timesink. So, Stefka Bulgaria, maybe it's time someone else had go at it...? Because, coupled with your rather perplexing SPI (to word it gently) involving Mhhossein earlier in the week, it doesn't look like it's heading anywhere good. At any rate, maybe a pre-RfC consultation period wouldn't be the worse idea. Instead of submitting one super-trim RfC after another, why not work together toward a proposal that both sides could find palatable. Or am I just howling at the moon? El_C 09:18, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I strongly support work[-ing] together toward a proposal that is both concise but also contains all the major points. We can use the two proposals in the RfC already (SB's and VR's) as starting points.VR _talk 11:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I strongly oppose re-opening the rfc since it received concensus and was closed properly. If some editors want to shape the final outcome, then they should start a new rfc and see if that receives consensus, so I support working together in a new rfc. Idealigic (talk) 16:59, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Your use of the word "consensus" is too vague, Idealigic. Because what I am saying above (and have said in the prior RfC), is that one would need a strong consensus to reduce sourced material to 1/20th (prior RfC) to 1/10th (current RfC) of its former size. Rough consensus just isn't good enough for changes of that magnitude. El_C 17:14, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

The head count was 10 editors in favor of the proposal and 4 against it (and even some of votes that were against the OP’s proposal agreed the text needed shortening so it could be more neutral, so there was an unambiguous consensus that the text needs to be shortened, something also consistent with past discussions).In cases where arguments on both sides are equally compelling citing relevant policies our SOP (as described in WP:NHC) requires the closer "to close by judging which view has the predominant number of responsible Wikipedians supporting it".

The text was requested to be summarized because there a section in the article with the violating title “designation as a cult” (it violates WP:V and WP:OR) with exuberant number of quotes calling the democratic political opposition to Iran’s theocracy a "cult". The OP provided many sources about the Iranian regime running a disinformation campaign to label this political group a “cult” and other discrediting things:

• "A well-funded, highly organized misinformation campaign attempts to demonize the only viable alternative to Tehran’s rulers, the Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK), whose four decades of opposition to one of the world’s most evil regimes apparently equates with being some sort of terrorist cult."

• "disinformation campaign to discredit the opposition, namely the MEK. The objective has been to show that no democratic alternative is available and that dealing with this regime or looking for change within it is the only option for the West. The campaign involves the use of social media, dissemination of fake news, provision of grants for biased and slanderous reports, and even hiring reporters directly or through middlemen. In testimony before the Canadian Parliament on July 5, 2010, John Thompson, who headed the Mackenzie Institute, a security think-tank in Canada, said a man tied to Iran’s mission in Canada offered him $80,000. “They wanted me to publish a piece on the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK). Iran is trying to get other countries to label it as a terrorist cult."

  ”

• "To my knowledge, the regime has not spent a dime on demonizing the elderly remnants of the monarchy, but it does pay journalists abroad to publish fake stories against the MEK. The head of a major Canadian think tank revealed that the Iranian regime embassy offered him up to $80,000 to refer to the MEK as a "cult" in his publications."

• "A 2011 report by the General Intelligence and Security Service stated that the government in Iran continued to coordinate a campaign financed by the Iranian intelligence services to undermine and portray the MEK in a highly negative manner. This campaign also involved the media, politicians, and public servants."

• "Teheran’s efforts to undermine the opposition People’s Mojahedin Organisation of Iran (Mujahedin-e Khalq, MEK) in the Netherlands continued unabated in 2011. In a campaign co-ordinated and financed by the Iranian intelligence services, the media and a number of politicians and other public servants were approached with a view to portraying the MEK in a highly negative light."

• "The intensification of the MOIS research efforts already described for 2015 against the opposition "People's Modjahedin Iran Organization" (MEK) or theirs political arm, the “National Council of Resistance of Iran” (NCRI), was also found in 2016. The Iranian intelligence service continued to adhere to the strategy that the MEK targeted through Discredit propaganda."

• "“The Iranian regime has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to demonize the PMOI and portrayed it as a group without popular support,” Rafizadeh, an Arab News columnist, added."

• "The campaign to suppress and demonize the opposition, most notably the MEK, has been launched since the Islamic regime usurped power in Iran. In fact, the Iranian intelligence and security apparatus has been actively pursuing various activities against the MEK such as monitoring, assassinating and, more importantly during recent years, demonizing the opposition group in media. For instance, in 2015 and 16, the regime produced at least 30 films, TV series and documentaries to spread false allegations and lies against the opposition in Iran’s society. This is apart from hundreds of websites and exhibitions across Iran to pursue the same goal."

These are just some of the reasons mentioned in that discussion why this needed shortening, cleaning that section and preserving the main points. If new information needs to be added, then a proposition can be made explaining why it is needed and how they are in accordance to a summary style editing. That would be a fresh approach of building the article instead of the other way around (which has already proven not to work). Idealigic (talk) 12:16, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Why do you guys think bludgeoning the discussion with such a text wall can be helpful? As I told you, you did exactly the same thing at the talk page of MEK but it just made the whole talk page into a real mess. As a friendly note, this is not really helpful. --Mhhossein ^talk 14:28, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Idealigic's count of "10 vs 4" is wrong. There were two proposals: 10 chose SB's, 7 chose VR's (see collapsed section Vote counts for diffs and details) - this is not consensus.VR _talk 15:24, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

The main problem with a situation like this is that while everyone is in agreement it needed to be changed, there wasnt a particularly strong consensus for one version over another. Usually the argument is 'do we change it to this or not'. The standard wiki response in a non-consensus situation is revert to the status quo, that was clearly not an option here, as no one wanted that. Given the weight of arguments were roughly equal, it then does come to a numbers game. The alternatives are: extending the RFC to gain more input, by advertising a bit more widely, or just reclosing it as no-consensus and taking it back to the default state. The issue with leaving it open is there are not (from reading it) many more decent arguments that could be made on either side. Re-opening a discussion for the purpose of just hoping more people up the numbers on one side or another is just an invitation to canvassing. Just to be clear I Endorse the close as valid given the discussion there. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:48, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Only in death, you raise an important point about how re-opening the RfC discussion itself is a questionable proposition, though I think you also overlook some of the points I raised about the background behind the cult designation RfCs (plural). Especially, how WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS may be at odds with super-trimming content down to like 1/10th to 1/20th of its former size in an article as fraught as this. Again, I, for one, feel that the two sides giving a go to a collaboration in a pre-RfC brainstorming session could prove to be a worthwhile pursuit. We keep having the same side (and the same editor, in fact) in effect dominating the RfC platform when it comes to this matter. But, as for a mere re-open, it would, indeed, be folly. Procedurally, what I would favour (and I suppose what I originally had in mind) is an immediate re-closing, as opposed to relisting. And if it is re-closed affirming the result of the first closure, then that is what it is. Anyway, I have amended my original comment accordingly. El_C 17:02, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Only in death and El_C for input. Reason for re-opening was to get responses to two policy issues with SB version:

• SB's version misrepresenting the sources that say MEK is a cult (concern raised during RfC)
• SB's weasel wording equating scholarly sources to newspaper op-eds (raised during RfC[10]). Academic consensus is clear that MEK is a cult. Even SB admitted that no source dismisses the cult claim.

Neither concern was responded to during the RfC. I'm fine with a re-close as long as closer evaluates the merits of these two arguments.VR _talk 17:33, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

A "consensus to reduce but no consensus on exact wording" can be a good thing. This finding on the previous RfC actually spawned proposals and counter-proposals. That is exactly what is needed: less !voting and more WP:NEGOTIATION.VR _talk 18:04, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

• This discussion had been going on for months and a RFC was the only solution left for getting things somewhat fixed in the article, so in spite that there is not an overwhelming majority of votes for one version over another (although I also count 10-4 in favor of Stefka's proposal, and 6-7 in favor of VR's propoal), I agree with editor Onlyindeath that the close is valid considering the alternatives. Alex-h (talk) 20:57, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

See Vote counts, 10 chose SB's version, 7 chose VR's version.VR _talk 22:36, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

• There is nothing wrong with the first close. Ypatch (talk) 06:26, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

References
References

• Source restriction is what's needed at People's Mujahedin of Iran (and similar super-contentious articles). The sources being used on all sides (popular press) are not good enough for this topic. If we try to source a topic like MEK to popular press like BBC and arabnews.com, what we'll find is that the sources are all over the map and say all kinds of radically different things, depending entirely on who is publishing, who the journalist is, and who the journalist's sources are. We'll never get to any neutral truth about a complex topic like MEK relying on journalists. There are hundreds of academic sources about MEK. Those should be the only ones considered. The picture becomes much clearer when we rely on political scientists and other types of scholars, instead of journalists and activists, as sources. I think Chet did a fine job closing this complex RFC; sure, a no consensus close would also have been in discretion; sure, it could have run longer; Chet kind of split-the-baby with a close that addressed part of the issue and with no prejudice to further discussion of a remaining part of the issue; but without a source restriction, the MEK content disputes will never, ever be resolved. So I think step 1 is impose a source restriction, and then have whatever RFCs. But everyone's arguments would need to be re-evaluated once the source restriction is in place, and I think that will lead us to seeing that what's in dispute isn't quite as disputed by the sources as we thought it was (scholars agree about much more than journalists do). Levivich ^harass/_hound 18:57, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Levivich I fully agree with restricting to scholarly sources - this is exactly what I said above and was repeatedly said during the RfC[11][12] by those who opposed SB version.VR _talk 20:22, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@Vice regent: I remember months ago El_C said scholarly sources had to be the core part of our discussions (@El C: Do you remember this? I can't find the diff). I want to say that ignoring the journalistic sources may be wrong, instead I suggest to give much more weight to the scholarly works. Btw, I would say inappropriate weighing of the arguments, is the most dominant issue here. Probably I will explain it in details later. --Mhhossein ^talk 13:46, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Mhhossein, sorry, nothing comes to mind. I mean, beyond the MEK, I generally favour citations which are grounded in the scholarship rather than in the mainstream media. As a maxim, the greater social-scientific detail a source provides, the better. But you work with whatever sources you got, I suppose... El_C 22:58, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome El_C. As a user involved in most, if not all, of the core discussions of the MEK page, although I believe sometimes journalistic works may frame a sociopolitical picture of the subject, I completely agree with favoring scholarly works over the ones from the mainstream media. Let's see what Vice regent and Levivich think? --Mhhossein ^talk 13:07, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome — what? I think you meant to say "thank you" and I was meant to say "you're welcome." Stop the Steal! Anyway, unless it's news, which is the domain of the media rather than that of academia. But after the fact, it's always a plus to have a reputable scholar emphasize and reaffirm (or qualify or whatever) this or that news piece alongside any other evidence. El_C 16:24, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

In my view, once serious scholarship becomes available, it should replace news media as a source in our articles. By "serious scholarship" I mean written by bona-fide scholars, published by real, peer-reviewed academic journals or in books (often edited by bona-fide scholars) published by university publishers (like Oxford University Press). Second-tier is non-peer-reviewed but still serious scholarly articles, in academic periodicals like Foreign Affairs, but in that case one must be careful to look at who the author is: an article by a politician in a periodical like Foreign Affairs is probably not going to make a good source; an article by a university professor published in the same magazine would be fine (but still not peer-reviewed, and may need attribution). Third-tier is top-rated news media, like BBC or The Economist or The New York Times. These should only be used when there is nothing available in the first or second tier. That will happen, of course, for any current or recent events. So as events unfold and are written into our articles, they should start with top-rated news media as sources, but then those sources should be gradually replaced as better ones (from scholarly publications) become available.

With a topic like "Is MEK a terrorist cult?", well, we don't need to go to news media. MEK has been around for decades now; a lot of scholarship has been written about it. It's possible to look at the scholarly works (books by university publishers, academic journals) and see if they describe MEK as a terrorist cult. For that question, we shouldn't even bother looking at news media, because news media will pay a lot of attention to, say, what the gov't of Iran or the US said about it recently, without filtering that "recentist" information through the sober lens of scholarship. So I wouldn't consider news media for that question, except I guess if someone is making the argument that "terrorist cult" is a recently-significant viewpoint, too new for scholarship but nevertheless significant enough to include in our article, in which case our article should cover that by making it clear it's recent, and likely by attributing it.

So basically I think I agree with Mhhossein about weight. While I said "source restriction", I certainly think that there is a place for news media to have a limited role (e.g., for recent events), but that scholarly sources should, as Mhhossein said, be favored or weighed stronger than news media sources. Ultimately as time goes on and scholarly sources are written, they should be replacing news media sources as sources in our articles. Levivich ^harass/_hound 17:26, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

In a sense, it's an approach that aims at drawing a parallel between the natural and social sciences. The mainstream media is fine for news, but beyond the contemporaneous, it is more encyclopedic to refer to the scholarship. Of course, the influence of political ideology tends to be far more pronounced in the social sciences than it is in the natural ones — but the principle is more or less the same. And, indeed, in the case of the MEK, there is no shortage of scholarly input on... pretty much anything. El_C 17:41, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

El_C: Hahaha, "I'm sorry (you're welcome)". I meant to say sth in response to your "sorry" (which I now see was not an appropriate reaction towards you). Thank you anyway. I think you raised this important issue of using the scholarly sources long ago and the outcome of ignoring that is showing itself just now. Also, thanks for your time Levivich. The explanation was quite comprehensive and reasonable. I agree with your points. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:40, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Looking at that YouTube comment section (in general, a nexus of wisdom and grace), I echo what Clever and Original Username. (full stop in the original!) said 5 years ago: the idea of Gene belcher saying fuckscape still makes me really uncomfortable. Amen to that. El_C 15:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Based on the discussion above, would there be broad agreement between El_C, Levivich, Mhhossein and myself that the RfC should be re-closed (not re-opened), where the closer takes re-evaluates the arguments based on Levivich's proposed "source weighting" (giving scholarly sources more weight than news media sources)?VR _talk 19:41, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

There are several editors here agreeing that there was nothing wrong with the first close. If the issue is instead "source restriction"/"source weighting" of third-tier media, then that is something that needs to be applied to the whole article and not to one particular section (like Alex pointed out below, which has been completely ignored for some reason). I will start a talk page discussion on the MEK page to see if we can first agree on applying "source restriction" to the article as a whole. If that passes, then that would answer a lot of questions about what should or shouldn't be in the article. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 07:12, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

I've started a discussion on the MEK talk page to see if we can first come to an agreement of applying source restriction on the MEK page as a whole. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 07:21, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Why do you think we should STOP everything until YOUR discussion is coming to a desired end? If you have something to say, simply add it here.--Mhhossein ^talk 11:01, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, I have added it here, as well as on the MEK's talk page. Levivich suggested that one way to make RFCs more straight-forward at the MEK page could be to first implement a source restriction there, AND THEN have whatever RFCs. So if a source restriction is to be implemented to the MEK article, then we first need to evaluate if this should/will come into effect, and if it does, then we need to determine how this will affect the vast number of media sources used in this article (and not only the ones pertaining to this RFC). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:20, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Please stop changing Levivich's words. I don't think he meant we should wait and experimentally see if this approach works. My understanding of his words is that the RFCs would have different outcomes with source restriction in place. This stonewalling will not stop this RFC from reaching a conclusion. @Levivich: Would you please elaborate on this?--Mhhossein ^talk 17:20, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

@Stefka Bulgaria and Mhhossein: TBH when I wrote my comment, I had in mind a source restriction for the entire article at least, if not the entire topic area (WP:GS/IRANPOL), because I think that will help future content disputes as well as the present one (as Alex-h points out, a source restriction would affect much more content in the article than just what's at issue in this RFC; it could significantly change what we say about the topic in wikivoice). I'll say generally that by "source restriction", I don't mean source removal so much as source replacement, i.e., replace a BBC cite with an academic journal cite when one is available; I don't mean someone should delete everything cited to the BBC. In some cases, something cited to news media can't be replaced with academic sourcing, and in those cases, perhaps removal is the correct choice, but it's really a case-by-case analysis.

With regard to this RFC, I don't think a future source restriction could be applied retroactively. That said, we do have global consensus about WP:RS, WP:V, WP:BLP (where applicable), etc. So whether a closer of this RFC should weigh !votes based on the quality of sources... I think generally yes, it's OK for a closer to discount a !vote based on, for example, a deprecated source. Can a closer weigh !votes based on academic sources heavier than !votes based on non-academic sources? (Which is, I think, what the current disagreement is about?) I have no what the answer to this question is. To be honest I don't think I've ever encountered it before.

If a source restriction is put in place, for the article or the topic area, it will result in changes to articles as it is enforced. And those changes might make this RFC moot anyway, or it might give justification to re-visiting the RFC. I really don't know, it sort of depends on whether there's a source restriction, what kind of restriction exactly, and what the sources that "pass" the restriction say about the topic.

I get Mhhossein's point about not holding up this RFC close while the community discusses a potential source restriction. Maybe the best thing is for a closer to close the RFC now but recognize that the issue may be revisited in the future if, for example, the content changes because of a source restriction being enforced.

But it's probably best to get more outside opinions, esp. from admins, as this is AN and a contentious RFC. Merry Christmas if you celebrate it, or Merry Clausmas if you celebrate a secular Christmas like I do :-) (Non-administrator comment) Levivich ^harass/_hound 17:48, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

It was a clear and comprehensive explanation Levivich. The fact that issues should be investigated case by case is an important thing in your words, I guess. Also, let me repeat your "Can a closer weigh !votes based on academic sources heavier than !votes based on non-academic sources?" (I also believe this should be taken really more seriously now). --Mhhossein ^talk 19:12, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

There is a lot of third-tier (and fourth-tier) journalism in the MEK article. This for example:

• ”Hersh reported names of former U.S. officials paid to speak in support of MEK, including former CIA directors James Woolsey and Porter Goss; New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani; former Vermont Governor Howard Dean; former Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Louis Freeh and former U.N. Ambassador John Bolton.”

• "The Intercept published that Bob Menendez, John McCain, Judy Chu, Dana Rohrabacher and Robert Torricelli received campaign contributions from MEK supporters.

• "According to Hersh, MEK members were trained in intercepting communications, cryptography, weaponry and small unit tactics at the Nevada site up until President Barack Obama took office in 2009."

• "According to the Intercept, one of Alavi's articles published by Forbes was used by the White House to justify Donald Trump Administration's sanctions against Iran."

• "Karim Sadjadpour believes the MEK is a "fringe group with mysterious benefactors that garners scant support in its home country", and that the population of its supporters in Iran "hovers between negligible and nill"."

The list goes on and on... Alex-h (talk) 19:51, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• Besides El_C and Levivich, 2 other uninvolved users commented here. @S Marshall: and @Only in death: what do you think of the above proposal to re-close (not re-open) the RfC where the closer takes re-evaluates the arguments by giving scholarly sources more weight than news media sources? This was already stated twice during the RfC ([13][14]) by those opposed to SB version but never responded to during the RfC. WP:NEWSORG says Scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources are generally better than news reports for academic topics.VR _talk 12:59, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

See this discussion: the news sources are not contradicting the scholarly sources, they are just adding a different POV (that isn't in the article). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 13:35, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Moreover, cherry-picking when source restriction should be implemented is the equivalent of cherry-picking our preferred sources. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 13:45, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

VR, you are overlooking the main argument here. Are we executing source restriction to the entire MEK article? We cannot execute source restriction to one sentence and not the rest of the article. Alex-h (talk) 14:54, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

• In response to Vice regent's ping: No, I don't think there are good grounds to re-close. I should disclose that on 8 February 2019, I closed an RfC about the lede of this article myself, and while I was evaluating that debate, I formed the view that this article is edited by people with a strong and active interest in the topic area who are very motivated to affect what it says. I think that in that environment, a closer needs to exercise a lot of judgment; and I think that because he needs to, he's therefore, necessarily, authorised to. He's within discretion and it ill behoves us to undermine him.—S Marshall T/C 18:40, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

S Marshall I appreciate your view, thanks for giving it. Do you have any comment on my (and others') view that the RfC proposal violates WP:V by misquoting a source, and violates WP:DUE and WP:NEWSORG by giving news sources similar weight as scholarly sources?VR _talk 04:10, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Vice regent in response to your poins:

1) The RfC proposal does not violate WP:V:

"Over the years, Tehran’s terror campaign at home and abroad has been augmented by a massive, well-orchestrated, well-financed demonization and disinformation campaign to discredit the opposition, namely the MEK. The objective has been to show that no democratic alternative is available and that dealing with this regime or looking for change within it is the only option for the West. The campaign involves the use of social media, dissemination of fake news, provision of grants for biased and slanderous reports, and even hiring reporters directly or through middlemen. In testimony before the Canadian Parliament on July 5, 2010, John Thompson, who headed the Mackenzie Institute, a security think-tank in Canada, said a man tied to Iran’s mission in Canada offered him $80,000. “They wanted me to publish a piece on the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK). Iran is trying to get other countries to label it as a terrorist cult.”

International Policy Digest

"To my knowledge, the regime has not spent a dime on demonizing the elderly remnants of the monarchy, but it does pay journalists abroad to publish fake stories against the MEK. The head of a major Canadian think tank revealed that the Iranian regime embassy offered him up to $80,000 to refer to the MEK as a "cult" in his publications... And yet, over the past several years, Iran’s state-run media has produced a total of nineteen movies, series, and documentaries—some of them consisting of up to twenty-eight segments of thirty to forty-five minutes each—that demonize the MEK. In 2018 alone, eighteen major books were published by the regime against the MEK. Iran’s Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei excoriated the MEK by name at least four times. Iran’s President Hassan Rouhani has directly blamed the MEK for organizing public protests."

National Interest

"Of late, the blather has gone from a wave to a barrage. A well-funded, highly organized misinformation campaign attempts to demonize the only viable alternative to Tehran’s rulers, the Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK), whose four decades of opposition to one of the world’s most evil regimes apparently equates with being some sort of terrorist cult."

Arab News

All three sources support "while other sources say the Iranian regime is running a disinformation campaign to label the MEK a "cult", so WP:V has not been violated. If you think the text could be quoted better, then just provide a suggestion on the article's talk page and we'll get others to weigh in.

2) This does also does not violate neither WP:DUE nor WP:NEWSORG. One POV has 54 characters, and the other has 18 characters, so more weigh has been given to the POV with more sources. Also see the other sources provided here by Idealigic (there are plenty of sources supporting that there is a disinformation campaign by the Iranian regime against the MEK), so this content is clearly WP:DUE. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:05, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

As opposed to what you said, this version is truely violating NPOV (explained mutliple times). Anyway, this long wall of text does not discredit the important points raised by experienced users here. --Mhhossein ^talk 19:07, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

References

the close was clearly done correctly. Mhhossein, if you are really interested in making the article (topic) better and not just changing the outcome of this individual RFC, then propose something on the article's talk page that can be implemented to the whole subject instead to just the line you want to remove from the article. Barca (talk) 14:30, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Nope, the admin having the most experience with this page says it's not! Even the closer admin said he is OK with re-opening. --Mhhossein ^talk 19:02, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, Chet stood by his close, and S Marshall and Only in death also endorsed the close. Levivich proposed some kind of "Source restriction" to be implemented in the article or subject area as a whole, and I have since been trying to generate input on the article's talk page about this. About the RfC, it's been over a month since it was closed, and there was a general agreement by most (if not all) editors that the text needed to be reduced. Also I pointed out how the outcome didn't violate neither WP:V, nor WP:DUE, nor WP:NEWSORG, nor WP:NPOV (one POV has 54 characters, and the other has 18 characters, so both POVs have been represented). The RFC had been open for over a month, with little to none new input in the days before its closure. Moving on, if there is some kind of source restriction to be implemented in IRANPOL, then ideally an admin who deems this necessary will assist in setting this up so that we can apply it to the whole subject as well as future discussions and not exclusively to certain texts that some editors want changed. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 05:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

The closing admin starts his comment by "Neutral as Closer (but no fundamental objection to reopening)". By the way, "(one POV has 54 characters, and the other has 18 characters, so both POVs have been represented". LOL! Is it what you understand from NPOV? --Mhhossein ^talk 06:39, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• I have asked the discussion get closed. --Mhhossein ^talk 03:39, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
• Since the Arab News was used as a source for the text proposed in this RfC, users might be interested in discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Arab_News_reliable_on_the_People's_Mujahedin_of_Iran?.VR _talk 14:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
• There are two important discussions regarding the super-trim RFCs (like the one that is the topic of debate here). You can find them "New restriction proposal" and "Confused". The OP of the RFC has promised to avoid opening such super trim discussions. --Mhhossein ^talk 07:47, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

ANI reform proposal

At a discussion about conduct resolution systems at the VP idea lab, I suggested that we may be able to significantly improve ANI discussions by adding a bit more structure and reducing the amount of crosstalk between editors directly involved in disputes. Levivich and ProcrastinatingReader seemed to think that it would be a good idea (and isaacl seems to have, possibly independently, come to a similar conclusion further down in the section), so I think it's appropriate to bring it here for a bit more input before making a formal proposal at the village pump.

My suggested reform would be as follows: we add a rubric for new ANI cases that has separate headers for responses by parties to the dispute, and a section for neutral parties to discuss. After a case has been filed, other editors who are directly party to the dispute (whether because they are named by the filing editor or because they independently believe that they are sufficiently involved to be involved in the dispute), can respond once in the appropriate section. No one directly involved dispute, including the filing editor, should make any further comments unless explicitly asked by an uninvolved 3rd party. At their discretion, third parties can deliberate among themselves, add their opinions, and/or carve out additional subsections for disputing editors to answer questions or make further comments. Deviations from the rubric by involved editors should be addressed first with warnings (as well as either refactoring or collapsing of the improper comments as appropriate), and eventually with blocks once the failure to comply with process becomes clearly tendentious.

Draft rubric for the proposal (view in source to see additional in-line notes to help editors fill out the form)

Involved editors <!-- Please list involved editors and/or affected pages below this line --> Filing editor: YourUserNameHere (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) ExampleUserName (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) Affected Page Dispute overview by filing editor <!--Please give a brief description of the issue here. The inclusion of [[WP:DIFF|diffs]] highlighting the problematic behavior and attempts to resolve it before coming here are strongly advised. Note that you will not be allowed to respond further until asked by an uninvolved editor. Please be patient until then, and remember that if an editor casts aspersions or makes false allegations against you, it will reflect poorly on them when the discussion is evaluated by third parties. --> Statements by other editors involved in the dispute <!--Please add a brief statement regarding the issue raised above in the appropriately named subsection header. If you do not see your name, but believe that you are in fact involved in this case, whether as a defendant or complainant, feel free to add a level-4 subsection heading and add your comments. Note that as a party to the dispute, you are allowed only one comment here, and should not reply further until specifically asked by an uninvolved editor. --> Statement by ExampleUserName Statements by uninvolved editors <!--Uninvolved editors may discuss the case freely here. Depending on the nature of the case, it may be helpful to ask editors involved in the dispute for further input; feel free to moderate in whichever way seems most helpful, either adding additional subsections to allow for their responses, or directing them to use their existing subsections. -->

• I <nowiki>'d the "additional in-line notes" so we don't have to view the source. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 06:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I look forward to hearing people's thoughts on this proposal. If this or a similar proposal gains consensus, we can also see about implementing a nicer webform for it a la Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/request. As an added note, I think that SebastianHelm's handling of this open ANI case, while not identical to the above proposal, is a great example of how much cleaner ANI discussions can be when disputants are prevented from interacting with each other (another, messier case also related to Nagorno-Karabakh provides a good contrast). _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:21, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

• I like, with a few comments. It’s already public knowledge that this format (which is currently used at AE) is far more successful and likely to result in good outcomes (or indeed, a conclusive outcome at all) than the current free-for-all at ANI, which is often characterised by bludgeoning and excessive back and forth. For clarity, I think all “comments by uninvolved editors” should be in one section for all (not separate sub sections per editor, like in ArbCom statements). It could be said that many disputes at ANI are more minor, short affairs that don’t require a formalised structure. True, although one still doesn’t really seem to hurt for them. Possibly the “no further comments unless asked” can be relaxed. Perhaps the filing editor has something useful to add as the discussion progresses even if not explicitly asked. So long as they’re confined to their own section it can’t entirely hurt the rest of the discussion, with few exceptions (such as the lengthy chemistry periodic table disputes). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:37, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

  I agree with your statement about having all uninvolved editors together in one section, and intended that to be the suggestion as part of my original proposal, apologies if that wasn't sufficiently clear. I think that would strike a good balance between bureaucracy and free-form, as it prevents bludgeon-happy editors from going at each others' throats while still allowing uninvolved editors to quickly discuss blocking IP-hoppers or editors making legal threats, types of cases that tend to be low-drama even in the current format. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:47, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Looks like, at the moment, the proposal overlooks that WP:AE has a word count. Which may be pivotal in a number of ways. El_C 19:57, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I would consider a word count limit to be a friendly amendment. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:05, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

• Unequivocally, I think we should try it. That said, I'm suspicious of the cost-benefit calculus. For all the downsides of our current AN(I) discussion structure (well recorded in the OP) the low overhead required to report an editor is a feature and we should consider what we might lose by increasing the complexity. Namely, a lot of low level problems that we could easily handle may not get reported because the aggrieved editor may think it's not worth the paperwork. To speculate a bit, perhaps our problem is too few reports? AN(I) is deep in project space and filing a report can seem like arcane magic. For most casual editors encountering a problem, I really doubt they'd know to go to AN(I) or AE or ARCA or .... but I'm digressing. The proposal is a well designed solution to a recognized problem and therefore is worth a shot. I don't think it will solve all our problems, and we may need to reevaluate when and how to use it, so I'd want to revisit its use after a couple months. TL;DR I think this will be a useful tool in our toolbox but I'm suspicious of it being a full-on replacement---let's try it and see how it goes. (edit conflict × 2) — Wug·a·po·des​ 19:58, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

  Maybe, Wug, this shouldn’t be required for all but encouraged for editors who suspect they have more nuanced disputes (rather than just the variety which are an admin immediately replying “indeffed”)? Other editors can always clerk and adjust an existing discussion into the format if it quickly turns out the filer’s judgement on the format not being required was mistaken. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:08, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) FWIW, I don't think that this proposal really adds much of a burden to a filing editor--if it did we'd likely see more reports filed at ANI that belong at 3RR or AIV (i.e. editors not understanding those boards' formats coming to the "simpler" ANI board to file a complaint). We'd still be missing anyone that finds navigating WP space too complicated full-stop, but addressing that issue will likely take a separate proposal (although implementing a Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/request-style flowchart for ALL disputes, letting editors figure out which resolution methods are appropriate by answering a few questions, may help that problem).

I think one question (edit conflcit, which ProcrastinatingReader raised above) that does need to be answered is how to go about trying out this reform, whether to try to gain a consensus now to overhaul ANI immediately (and possibly reverse the change if something goes wrong), or start a separate board (e.g. WP:ANI/B) where we can demo the new process without disrupting any existing process. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:14, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

The biggest thing about the current ANI is the massive number of talk page watchers, built up over many years. Starting a new board may not be successful due to that reason, rather than just having an optional (but encouraged) format on the existing board initially. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:17, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh implementation is easy imo. Just have the "open a new report" button preload the text you have here. Check out the example edit I made to the header. People can still use the "new section" tab to create a blank one, but I suspect most reports that need the template use the button anyway. — Wug·a·po·des​ 20:38, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

If this is brought in, would it be possible to get a bot to notify those editors who are the subject of the complaint raised? Suggest a bot run every 15 mins at :00, :15, :30, and :45 past the hour. That would cut down on the perennial complaints of non-notification, especially when the filer is an IP or inexperienced editor. Mjroots (talk) 20:41, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

• How useful to find that Wugapodes has already articulated more or less what I was thinking. Certainly good to experiment with things, but I'm skeptical that there's more than a minority of cases here which would be helped by such a structure. Also worth noting that imposing such a structure doesn't just cease catering to the loud and loquacious; it shifts to cater to a different group: the more technical communicators who can express themselves adequately with lots of constraints put upon them. Also, a brief counterpoint to "not very well": our dispute resolution structures work much better than they have any business doing, with volunteers actually sorting out many disputes between volunteers on a project anyone can participate in which also happens to be one of the most popular in the world. (This isn't an argument not to try something new -- just a reminder that we're actually not doing too badly). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:27, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

• I'm skeptical that there's more than a minority of cases here which would be helped by such a structure — that. El_C 22:49, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

  The thing is, it's a minority of cases that cause all the problems. 80/20 rule. So I'd support trying this on the "problem threads". (It's not necessary for every, or even most, threads.) Levivich ^harass/_hound 01:33, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose No, absolutely not. The process we have now is not necessarly great - but it's also not broken. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:31, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Could a clerk role be useful in structuring the 20% in this format, while leaving the 80% alone? Given the number of us that try and be helpful / "enjoy the drama", I'm sure there are more than a few that would volunteer. Slywriter (talk) 01:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• I think the idea of creating more structure to ANI's most difficult discussions is a good idea. However, that's not a large majority of ANI filings. So perhaps coming up with a method to institute this for those discussions, after it has begun, could produce much of the desired results with fewer unintended consequences. Like if this makes people file fewer ANI reports, including fewer that end up in quick boomerrang blocks, I argue that's ultimately bad for us. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:43, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - I am not a member of the community who believes that ANI is broken and needs to be fixed. I think more than anything else, it simply needs more admin attention. As it is now, a small number of admins do the duty here, then get burned out and stop, and eventually come back, but there are a lot of admins who never seem to pay any attention to the board at all. I think more admin participation (and guidance) would be extremely helpful, but I am opposed to turning ANI into AE-light. The AE structure only works there because the universe of complaints is relatively small, which is not the case here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:01, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• I think something to remember here is that the strict rules at AE and other arbitration proceedings are there precisely because community processes like ANI have already failed to resolve the issue. AE in particular is for things that have already been to the committee and are still experiencing problems. I'm not sure applying the same restrictions to community-based processes makes a lot of sense. Beeblebrox (talk) 05:20, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support Rosguill may I also suggest having replicatable subsection templates for "issue-supporting data" cause there may be multiple issues and it might be conducive to have them sectioned for easier discussion and resolution. Example: For the filer:- Issue1-Data and arguments around issue 1; Issue2-Data and arguments around issue 2. Vikram Vincent 05:52, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per others who have clearly stated that ANI isn't broken. The whole point of ANI is supposed to be ad hoc requests for intervention where there's no other suitable place to request it. I have no real problem with backend process and procedure—that is, how responding admins are supposed to handle these requests—but I don't think changes on the front end like requiring more structured discussion is a reasonable idea. BMK's 100% right in drawing the comparison to AE, and frankly, I think AE and ArbCom-led sanction regimes should be abolished in favor of community-led processes. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 06:34, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Worth a try. This format has done reasonably well on other community processes and it might help. I really don't understand why people are saying ANI isn't broken, on the contrary it's pretty notorious as a dysfunctional, horrific page and lots of people simply don't spend time there as a result. Hut 8.5 08:37, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
  • The "It's not broken" people have as much evidence and justification to their arguments as the "It's pretty notorious as a dysfunctional, horrific page" people. And to be honest, even if its reputation is deserved, I argue that the freeform nature is necessary to fulfill its goal of being the "miscellaneous complaints" department. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 09:52, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
    • I don't see how the proposed system is incompatible with the page having a broad scope. WP:AE works perfectly well with something similar, for example, and cases on that page can cover all sorts of things. In my experience ANI isn't very good at dealing with complex issues. If you go there to report someone who obviously needs a block then it will be handled quickly, but if you take some protracted dispute there then you typically end up with gigantic walls of text which don't solve much, at least in part because they end up with lots of back and forth between the involved parties without much input from uninvolved editors. As I write this the top section, "Marxist-Leninist soap boxing and advocacy", is 22,000 words long and doesn't seem to have resolved anything except possibly to let one person know that there are lots of people concerned about their editing. Hut 8.5 20:16, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
  • To paraphase a saying, it runs on the worst system there is - except for all of the rest. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - this doesn't have any consideration of what to do if, after using their one post, a party can see the participants (potentially multiple participants) going down a clearly wrong garden path. If they're not asked something, they're stuck between rock and a hard place. I also question the "public knowledge AE works better" - AE is smoother but trades it at a significant cost of fairness. This method also reduces the likelihood that participants will read every post before participating. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:15, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

  I think some of the rules should be relaxed (eg feel free to add whatever in your own section, no round robin). Regarding reading each reply: most of the time there is no need to read every post. Many comments didn't have to be made in the first place; an involved party is bludgeoning people with their same argument over and over again. In the current ANI I think section # 1, 4, 9, 10 could benefit from structure. It, at very least, makes it much easier to get involved in a conversation, and also encourages the involved parties to reconsider whether their response adds anything, or if it just makes the discussion less attractive for another volunteer to want to spend their time examining. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 09:28, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support in principle This is an excellent idea, though I'd prefer a simpler format for the reports (maybe along the lines of WP:RFPP). The peanut gallery aspect of ANI is one of its worst dysfunctions, and I find makes it both a daunting place for me to seek to help out as an admin and a total crap shot when I lodge a report. A format like this would help, but would need to be adjusted to facilitate quick responses to obvious problems - e.g. there shouldn't be a need to wait for an obviously disruptive editor to respond to a complaint about them. A format which forces people making a report to set out their concerns in a succinct and non-emotive manner and encourages responses in kind could be very helpful in removing the drama element of ANI. Nick-D (talk) 10:05, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose strongly. We have too many bureaucratic processes as it is, and far too much rule creep. The complexity of Wikpedia's rules and regulations is one of the worst things about the back rooms/discussion/community aspects of the site. We have plenty of things we don't need, but one thing we definitely do need is a forum where someone (often a newcomer) can bring something to the attention of administrators simply and in their own words, without having to fill in official forms or structure it according to official formatting. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:18, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

  Oh, and if you want to know where the real problem here lies (if there's actually a problem at all, that is), read what User:Beyond My Ken said above. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:21, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

  And re: "It’s already public knowledge that this format (which is currently used at AE) is far more successful and likely to result in good outcomes...". No, it is most definitely not public knowledge that it is more likely to result in good outcomes... at ANI. AE is a very different thing, based on issues that have already gone through community processes and arbitration, via increasing levels of formality/bureaucracy (and, more importantly, the people involved have already been through those levels). And the format works well for that. It is a big mistake to assume that something that works well for AE will work well for ANI. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:47, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

  Fair enough on the formality/bureaucracy, though how about if it's made optional? And uninvolved editors can refactor the few discussions that, after some discussion, look like they may benefit from structure. Sure, I suppose anyone can do that already, but few people do because such a degree of clerking would be slightly questionable under current practices. I suspect the discussions that might benefit from such structure tend to involve more experienced participants. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:18, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

  Following threaded discussion is hard enough without a self-appointed army of ANI clerks getting in the way. And remember, this is a site which attracts thousands of people who can't even work out how to make an unblock request, even though it's one of the simplest bits of formality we have and is (as far as I can see) very clearly explained in the standard block messages. Any formality at all at ANI is going to turn away non-technical people who actually need admin help. As for making it optional, that would not solve the problem it's supposed to be solving if people can ignore it and carry on as before. No, I essentially just see ANI as not actually broken and not needing fixing, at least not in a cosmetic way. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per Boing - I see no problems with the current format, and we are bureaucratic enough already. Changing it will simply put off editors from making reports. GiantSnowman 11:20, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• I don't watch ANI, because it's well, ANI. But if it is true there is some 20% that would benefit from this structure, I would suggest that for a trial period, Admins and the well versed be able to call a temporary halt to a 'sprawling mess' and impose the structure mid-way through going forward, just for those. Perhaps, think of it as a 'step' in dispute resolution. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:18, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support in principle - BMK mentions above that not enough admins get involved at ANI, but part of the reason why it's unappealing is the endless walls of back-and-forth text between the involved parties that one has to wade through. Having a word limit attached might be sensible too for similar reasons. Most of the time, any relevant points can be made in an opening salvo, and all other text is just repetition. Happy to defer to others with more experience if they think it's unworkable, but I think this is worth giving a go.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:57, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

  I think the endless walls of back-and-forth text between the involved parties can actually be beneficial. It keeps them away from disrupting productive areas of the project, and just having a place to rant can help cool things down. Just let them hammer away at each other for a bit, and it's surprising how often the argument just peters away without anyone having to do too much at all. And if admin action is needed, just tell the participants to summarize their points and address that, and completely ignore the walls of text. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:14, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support, in principle. Perhaps there needs to be a division into quick/simple cases, that can be handled in an unstructured way, and non-simple cases, where a structured filing is required. Cases dealing with long-term behavioral problems, entrenched POV and battleground disputes affecting multiple editors definitely require a structured approach. These kinds of threads often devolve into complete train wrecks at ANI, with threads that can stay open for several weeks and grow into anwieldy messes, also poisoned by the votes of the various combatants themselves. A bureactatic structure is exactly what is required to bring some sanity in dealing with these kinds of cases. Nsk92 (talk) 14:15, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Comment. I've just looked over the reports currently at WP:ANI, thinking "Which of these would be made simpler, easier to follow, and easier to resolve if we imposed individual sections for parties, non-parties (and who decides who is a party?), a formal way of responding, imposed word counts or response counts, etc?" I think almost every one of the longer sections would turn into an impossible-to-follow mess of bureaucracy (even impossibler than they currently are), with no real benefits. And the simpler reports would have been made unnecessarily complex. Try it yourself and see what you think. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:25, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
  • There is a difference between thinking something won't work, and being opposed to even trying it. Let's test predictions and make decisions based on data instead of assumptions. Levivich ^harass/_hound 15:09, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
    • Yes indeed. But there is also the danger of "We need to try something, this is something, let's try it". It's a perfectly viable approach to look at existing cases and form an opinion on whether the proposed solution would help with them. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:54, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
      • Why is that a "danger"? Trial and error isn't inherently dangerous, it's an effective way of finding a solution. I don't see any danger in trying Ros's suggestion to see if and how it works. To put it another way, the discussion shouldn't be about whether to try nothing or try something; it should be about what to try. This seems like a well thought out suggestion to me. It's not "this is something, let's try it" (which implies "something" being picked out of thin air or without due consideration), this is: unless we think ANI is perfect the way it is and can't be improved (and you'd have to be crazy to think that), then let's try something to improve it, and this is a "something" that we've tried with success elsewhere and has a very low risk of danger as a pilot. It certainly can't get any worse than how problematic threads currently go, like, say, those dealing with the periodic table or Kurds. Levivich ^harass/_hound 17:17, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
        • Sure, "danger" is the wrong word, but I'm sure you know what I mean. Before we try something, examining past problems to see if they would have been helped is a valid way to reduce the risk of wasted time and increase the chances of success. So no, there is nothing wrong with my having looked back on existing ANI reports to think about whether the current proposal would have helped them. In fact, I think it's an important step. And I just don't think ANI is as bad as a lot of people make out - I've been hearing it for more than ten years now, yet we still manage to get by with it. Is it perfect? Obviously not. But perfect is the enemy of good enough, and I think it's good enough. Oh, and for a moment there I wondered what the "periodic table of Kurds" was - I'm so glad we don't have one of those ;-) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:37, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

          I guess it all boils down to whether we think the status quo is good enough. You say you've been hearing it for ten years, I say that's evidence of a problem. You say we get by, I say getting by isn't good enough. You say danger (or risk) in trying something, I say danger (or risk) in not trying anything. My starting point is that the flat number of active editors over the last ~10 years is evidence that the environment isn't attracting enough new editors, and if the number of active editors doesn't substantially grow (like exponentially), the project is doomed long-term (because as time moves forward, the number of things that need to be documented increases, plus there's the current backlog, meaning as time moves forward, Wikipedia's need for editor time increases, meaning the need for more editors increases, as each editor has a finite amount of time to donate, because editors are, unfortunately, mortal). So recruitment is an existential crisis for the project (if we don't recruit, the project fails), and that means a poor editing environment (one that suppresses recruitment) is an existential problem for the project (poor editing environment = project failure). In short, we must do something! :-)

          On the other hand, people look at the project after 20 years and think, "This is going pretty well, let's not mess with what works." But I think it hasn't been going that well, and any overarching praise of Wikipedia only comes because Wikipedia is judged against really low standards (social media, internet forums). "The last best place on the internet" is like being the last best dive bar. If you're trying to run a restaurant, being the best dive bar isn't really "good enough".

          I fear that too many on- and off-wiki are mistaking monopoly for success: just because Wikipedia is the top Google search result and it isn't totally full of lies like other websites, we think everything is working great the way it is. It isn't. In 20 years, we have nothing even close to an accurate, complete, neutral encyclopedia: I think less than 1% of 1% is "complete", meaning of publishable quality when compared with other academic works. And fixing that problem (increasing the pace of productivity) requires getting a lot more people to edit, and that requires making it a fun place to volunteer, and that requires a dispute resolution system that works well (poor dispute resolution = poor editing environment = project failure). If our recruitment numbers are flat, then that means our dispute resolution systems aren't working well, and that's why I hope you'll support trying something that will improve ANI (even if it's not this sectioned discussion proposal), and not accept the status quo as good enough. And thanks for reading this long rant if you did :-) Levivich ^harass/_hound 01:04, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

          I agree that it's a fallacy to say "we must do something; this is something, so let's do this". But I'm also a fan of trying new things out, re-evaluating, adjusting, and trying again, which is the underlying spirit of a wiki (getting things done quickly). Though I'm not necessarily advocating that this particular proposal be trialed, I do think it's reasonable to look for low-cost ways to test out new approaches. Nothing's binding with a test; we can try something and see how well it works. isaacl (talk) 06:57, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support. I was thinking the same after reading recent multi-week walls-of-text between combatants editors, with nobody else getting a word in edgeways. Clerking to collapse long comments would also help. Fences&Windows 19:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support -- better structure would allow for better (and faster) outcome. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:47, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support, structured discussion will separate the wheat from the chaff and allow better input from uninvolved editors and tidier closes.--Eostrix  (^{🦉 hoot} _hoot🦉) 07:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
• Conditional oppose unless there's a mechanism for either party in any given dispute to opt out of the trial and revert to the current free-form-discussion approach, and it's made clear to all those involved that such a kill switch on the experiment exists and they won't be penalised should they choose to pull it. The more bureaucratic dispute resolution processes (Arbcom, AE etc) reward those who understand how to communicate in the language and style of Wikipedia's internal bureaucracy, and as such impart a significant systemic bias towards "regulars" who understand Wikipedia's byzantine unwritten rules on communication.

  As per many of those above, I disagree that the existing ANI is a broken process. Those claiming that it is are concentrating on the occasions where the existing process fails (understandable, as those are the long arguments that repeatedly light up the watchlist), while ignoring the fact that the majority of incidents brought to ANI are resolved quickly and uncontroversially.

  I don't have an objection to a brief experiment—or to a "Stage II ANI" of a more formal process to which those disputes ANI hasn't handled can be escalated without having to go to Arbcom—but it needs to be experimental, and to have a clear end date and a clear understanding of by what means, when that end date comes, we'll assess the success or failure of the experiment.

  I strongly disagree with Isaacl above that (to paraphrase) constantly fucking about with process for the sake of fucking about with process regardless of the disruption it causes to the real people behind those goofy usernames is somehow inherently admirable because it's the wiki spirit—if there's one thing the WMF's constant inept meddling has taught us, it's that "run fast and break things" might sound good in meetings but it invariably ends in a fiasco and the loss of editors when put into practice. ‑ Iridescent 07:47, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

  I like the "Stage II ANI" idea, as an intermediate step between regular ANI and terminal ANI arbcom. The problem with an opt-out is that the editors who need this the most may be the most likely to opt out. (Like me, heh.)

  One way to try this is to allow admins to impose sectioning on repeat threads: you know, the ones that don't get resolved and then come back a week later. One the second or third trip, an admin can say "this needs to be sectioned" if they think the previous ones failed to resolve because of discussion problems. Periodic table and Kurds are two that come to mind where I think it would have benefitted on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. rounds.

  Another way to try this, and I think Rosguill suggested it at the pump, is an ANI/B page, which could be an optional alternative. Editors could choose to opt for the sectioned method, i.e. they can go to Stage II if they want to. We'd have to decide who gets to decide (filer? reported editor?) and what happens if participants disagree on the format. If all editors have to agree to try this out, we could try that as an experiment, but I think if all participants to an ANI dispute could agree on anything, then that is probably not a dispute that would need sectioned discussion anyway. Making it entirely optional might filter out the cases it would benefit the most. Levivich ^harass/_hound 08:17, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

  So what you're suggesting isn't "destroy ANI and replace it with something else, and hope that by the time it becomes clear the new system is even more problematic it's become a fait accompli and it's too difficult to go back"—which seems to be what most supporters are supporting—but instead creating a user-conduct equivalent of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard and allowing cases to be punted over there if they've been at ANI for a certain time without resolution but are too trivial to sent to Arbcom? I could get behind that, but I worry it would potentially suffer the same issues that the old Mediation Committee board had (and the existing Arbitration Enforcement board has), of rapidly becoming dominated by a small clique of those few admins who are interested, who in turn use it as a venue to push their personal grudges. We may despair of and get frustrated by the peanut gallery at ANI, but 1250 active watchers is an important safety mechanism, in that it makes it impossible to slip contentious things through, and presumably any new board would need to rebuild its audience from scratch unless we could persuade the devs to automatically add ANI 2.0 to the watchlist of everyone who's currently watching the existing board, or we actually made the threaded discussions a separate section of the existing ANI in the same way the Featured Article Removal Candidates are appended to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates to ensure that people actually see them.

  (This isn't hyperbole. Wikipedia is absolutely full of obscure boards where the handful of friends who watch the page will decide on whatever they want a particular policy to be, and then say "well, there was a clear consensus at WP:PRQXGL, it's not my fault if you didn't notice the discussion" should anyone raise a concern. What we don't want is to recreate the old and rightfully deprecated WP:RFC/U star chamber, where people who'd made the mistake of being in a dispute with an editor who knew how to game Wikipedia's internal politics would be periodically dragged to be subjected to ritual abuse by the handful of self-appointed Civility Police who had the page watchlisted.) ‑ Iridescent 15:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

  I agree that creating too many noticeboards dilutes editor attention and can thus be counterproductive, particularly if it becomes yet another walled garden. For that reason, I support this proposal as a test run for the ANI page itself, without creating a new page. I think it should be tested as follows: (1) filing editors can opt to use the threaded discussion format when they file, or (2) uninvolved admin can impose it on appropriate threads. The purpose of the test would be to allow filing editors and patrolling admins to experiment a bit with this format and see if it helps any threads, and if so, which ones. Levivich ^harass/_hound 17:45, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

  To clarify, I don't support changing process arbitrarily, and have made plenty of comments about proposals asking that a problem be identified and the solution tailored to address it. (I previously summarized a commonly-used real world procedure for problem resolution where I touched on this.) I do support looking for opportunities to try things out in low-cost, easily reversible ways quickly, but of course the vast majority of proposals don't fit this category. isaacl (talk) 17:04, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support Given how broken the current system is I would welcome trying a different way. If it does not work tweaks can be made or even revert to the old system. There is little to no actual cost to trying it. I also do not find the arguments from old timers of well this is the way we have always done it or ermahgerd bureaucracy particularly compelling. Just because something has been broken for a long time and we just deal with it does not make it okay. It sounds more like stockholm syndrome than a health relationship. Next on the bureaucracy front, I think you would be hard pressed to say pretty much every aspect of Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. This is not the old wild west days of the pedia where there were still growing pains and no one knew what they were doing. We are well past that and while I am sympathetic to the "make Wikipedia great again" chants here, that ship has sailed. PackMecEng (talk) 15:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Boing and Iridescent. I also think there is an important distinction between the notions that "ANI is broken" and "ANI doesn't work in the way, or produce the sort of outcomes, I think it should". I don't see the former as correct, though I think it's possible that the latter could be part of a larger discussion of rethinking the overall approach to behavioral concerns on enwiki. A revision of ANI could be an output of such general rethinking, assuming a majority of the community agrees ANI should then be generally operating differently or producing different sorts of outcomes. Grandpallama (talk) 18:16, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
• Conditional support as an alternative, but not required for every dispute. If an issue is closed as no consensus repeatedly, this might be the way to go prior to ArbCom. Certain TLDR issues/editors may have a report closed and required to reformat their report in this format if the closing admin/editor believes it to be beneficial. Although, if there is a place for the filing party's overview, the "accused" party shuld have the same place for their overview. Give it a trial run to work out the bugs. Clerking should be relatively leinient for now. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 07:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
• Absolutely - Support - I'm reminded of the hegemony of the asshole consensus that I read in an article titled The Limits of Volunteerism and the Gatekeepers of Team Encarta, and I'll quote the part I believe is relative to this discussion: The framing of the asshole consensus rests on a priori assumptions that this behavior is necessary for a successful project, and actually results in one. By their standards, it is successful, successful for them. When measured against the publicly stated mission, norms, and principles of the project — “be bold,” innovate, treat one another with civility — it is an utter failure. I don't understand why any proposal that will help maintain decorum would not be accepted. We cannot expect clerks to handle behavioral issues, or can we? We already know that aspersions and incivility can sometimes get out of control at the dramah boards, not to mention walls of text. It really needs to stop, and this a good place to start the stop. Word limits, no interaction between the filing party & the accused, establish a standard for proper decorum (like what was maintained at ARCA & ArbCom cases in the past), and enforce it. There needs to be a section devoted to uninvolved editor comments - of course, the opposition is going to be negative toward the accused. No comments should be accepted without diffs to support each and every claim. It will help put an end to WP:POV creep and potential agendas to rid an area of the oppostion - a high cost that is paid by NPOV. It's easy enough to establish limits/standards, and it truly needs to be done. It would also eliminate future WP:POV railroad filings which have occasionally resulted in actions taken against the wrong editor, inadvertent or otherwise. Atsme 💬 📧 16:47, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Unbureaucratic approach

The intention of Rosguill's proposal was to “[add] more structure and [reduce] the amount of crosstalk”. As the case Rosguill cites shows, much of the former can be achieved without changing our rules – all it takes for the latter is a request by an admin for a given case, which worked pretty well in that example. The part that can not be achieved without changing the rules is the structure with headlines such as “Involved editors”. However, we don't have to expect that from the person reporting a case. We could simply achieve that by allowing admins and uninvolved editors in good standing to restructure the original request by adding whatever structure they see fit. So, the concerns of Boing and those who voted “per Boing” are addressed: We can leave out the bureaucracy and rule creep and keep it easy for a newcomer to file a report. At the same time, we can still achieve what Rosguill wanted. And best of all, we can even increase flexibility and thus reduce bureaucracy. ◅ Sebastian 12:12, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

No, it doesn't address the Boing concerns. My concerns are about any form of bureaucractic structure, however or whenever imposed, or by whom. As soon as you start imposing a formal structure, at whatever point in the proceedings, you're putting an extra hurdle in the way of people who are not technically adept (and/or psychologically averse to having to do things in a formal way). This is just over-complicating things for, as I see it, no real benefit to those needing the help. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:48, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

But the organizing method all Wikipedia dispute resolution goes from unstructured to more structured. It's done that way precisely because it is the only tried and true method for any hope of help. Perhaps the dystopian view of ANI that it is just there to put people into an endless bear-pit until they talk themselves out is utilitarian but it is not help, and every good reason to never go near it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:01, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we do have a progression from unstructured to more structured, but I think we need that progression starting from unstructured and progressing to more structured forums as problems become more complex. And no, a structured organization is not the "only tried and true method for any hope of help" - the great majority of unstructured ANI reports that end in successful conclusions is the disproof of that. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:11, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

No. Not disproof because you clearly mistook it. The method it to go from unstructured to structured, that's the only method, unstructured is within the method. If the only issues brought to ANI were simple, it would certainly be more pleasant but hardly in tune with reality. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:25, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure what we're agreeing or disagreeing with here, so maybe I have mistaken your point. As I see it, we already have a progression from unstructured (ANI) all the way to highly structured (ArbCom/AE) as part of our problem solving process. So why change it? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:30, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I might have got it. Are you addressing my "As soon as you start imposing a formal structure, at whatever point in the proceedings" comment? What I meant there was "at any point in the ANI proceedings" (specifically if anyone, like an admin, retractively applied formal structure to an ANI report that's already open) - I didn't mean we should not apply structure in cases that need to go beyond ANI. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:31, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

the great majority of unstructured ANI reports that end in successful conclusions How are you defining success? Levivich ^harass/_hound 16:37, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Everyone involved gets blocked. ^{SubjectiveNotability} _{a GN franchise} (talk to the boss) 16:40, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

The reports are closed or archived with the problem no longer extant, or at least no longer urgent, due to admin or community action. Or with chronic or intractable problems concluded by community consensus or handed off to, say, Arbitration if that is applicable. Or any other way in which ANI reports are successfully concluded, as any observer can see on a daily basis. Or, of course, if everyone involved gets blocked ;-) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:50, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and something else I consider a success is when a report peters out with nothing being done, because nothing needs to be done. I see several reports currently open that I suspect will end like that. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:57, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

That sounds like the definition of waste not success, it obviously should have been shut down much earlier. More generally, Wiki-Arbitration process generally means dispute resolution has already failed. In the real world more intermediate steps might be called 'case management'. The easy is handled easy but as you get closer to failure, clearer structure seeks to avert failure. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:59, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Alan. To me, "success" at ANI means the dispute is resolved, not just that the thread gets archived. There is no way a majority of disputes at ANI are resolved. Except when everyone gets blocked. :-) Levivich ^harass/_hound 17:12, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

To add: perhaps if people were not so mystified about the kismet of unknowable, 'how does this end' of ANI, they might be less loquacious b/c less stressed. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:18, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree then. But people get into conflict all the time, and just letting them talk and letting it all peter out can be a valid method of conflict resolution. We will always get conflicts where there isn't a clear right or a clear wrong, and no obvious optimum solution (and that's true in all human community, not specific to here), but the parties just walking away from it can often be a pragmatic solution. And, even if you disagree and think a petered-out and archived report is a failure, nobody has made the case that that's caused by a lack of formal structure, or that the imposition of a formal structure to ANI reports will make those cases any better. In short, I don't think anyone has properly articulated the problem, or properly analysed problematic ANI reports to try to determine whether the lack of a formal structure might have played a part. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:25, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

The thing is in most cases, the parties don't walk away; they just keep arguing in the same places as they were before, and maybe new ones. I've rarely seen "letting them rant" result in tempers cooling at the incidents noticeboard, usually because the parties already failed at cooling down when they were ranting elsewhere. Taking a cue from real-world dispute resolution procedures, what is really needed is a moderator to manage discussion. (That of course carries its own set of pros and cons.) isaacl (talk) 22:48, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Knowing that there is an end in sight is one of the motivations behind the revisit respite concept I documented as part of my suggested content dispute resolution toolbox. In general, when a semi-binding conclusion is pending for a dispute, there is incentive to work towards a best-compromise solution. isaacl (talk) 23:05, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Holy wall of text! On word count

As an active ANI admin (and also an AE one), I think one of the biggest challenges faced in the former has to do with posts (quite often OPs) that are of an inordinate length, and also are often (though not always) poorly-documented. Not to (but to) harp again on the notion of word count, but it (alongside reasonably-approved extensions, of course) perhaps ought to be revisited and examined more closely all on its own. There's a dynamic that happens when a wall of text OP, for example, can still be parsed by those involved, but everyone else is effectively shutout. Then, as the thread progresses further, it often becomes less and less accessible to the very outsiders whose review it is seeking. Anyway, nothing too concrete in mind yet, just throwing the general idea out there. El_C 14:26, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

• El_C. here's a fine example of a Holly Wall. Sorry it's not concrete. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:55, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

• Hey, a wall's a wall (unless it's also a fence, somehow...?). Anyway, you wouldn't believe how many "Happy hollidays" I've sent through the years. One of those words that always trips me, it seems.¯\_(ツ)_/¯ El_C 16:15, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

• I really don’t think wall-of-text OPs are the ones that give ANI its bad rap though. The true wall of text threads usually just get ignored and archived without action. Or OP gets told to condense it, OP doesn’t, and then nothing happens. Where weird stuff happens is when there’s a serious and obvious experience differential between adversarial parties, such as the wall of text scenario but the adversarial party comes back with something concise and actionable, calls for a BOOMERANG, and things progress as we know them to progress.
  Weirdly, at least in my experience, the most notable cases are those where the ANI regulars (those derided as a peanut gallery) look through the case more deeply and suddenly reverse course—maybe it turns out the more experienced person was being a jerk the whole time and baited the OP into doing whatever he did. I’ve seen more than one thread where the initial reaction of the “peanut gallery” was to endorse the experienced editor, only for one of that group to suddenly post a counterargument with diffs that causes a total reversal of course.
  I think there’s room for a more uniform approach to what I’ll call “formal objections”—responses to things like unintelligible complaints, complaints that don’t clearly ask for admin intervention, and failure to notify in the correct manner—but I do think this cuts against more formal front-end constraints. Like look at the notification requirement. That’s not going anywhere of course, but look at how often it’s used to browbeat an OP and make the entire process both less friendly and less likely to reach a conclusion on the merits. Hell, I chewed out an OP for failure to notify a week or so ago in a manner that, in retrospect, very well could’ve ended in the thread getting forgotten about. I think that sort of thing is where the bad reputation really comes from. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 15:20, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Sure, that is an important facet, though I'm unsure what effective means there are to improve it, in-practice. I'm open-minded, though. But I'll admit that maybe I'm a bit AE slanted with my above, like for example with this AN thread from earlier in the month that was pretty much left to its own devices, except for the involved in-the-know. El_C 15:32, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Ugh. Those megathreads are the worst. To be honest it feels like a lot of those threads are attempting to do what WP:RFC/U used to do (but was never really effective in doing). I feel that the structural proposals above are looking for a way to achieve what RFC/U was intended to do as well.

I think if we want to address megathreads, we should look for a way of differentiating between regular threads and "endless megathreads". It could be very simple to do so. For instance, a thread that hasn't been archived after 96 hours, or a thread with a total substantive wordcount above 10,000 words. These are just example categorizations; they can and should be refined. My purpose in suggesting them is only to start the conversation about megathreads rather than solicit specific means of detecting problem threads.

But that of course begs the question, assuming we find a way to identify problem megathreads, what (if anything) do we do to address them? My honest opinion is that many of those cases should go to arbitration for structure. In the old days, the Committee handled relatively small-scale disputes involving pairs of editors all the time. It's what they should be doing instead of supervising topic areas covering millions of articles. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 17:33, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

IP, all good points, to be sure. But my concern with greatly increasing the frequency of referral to Committee actions is that those are likely to have the effect of simply driving the arbitrators to the point of exhaustion. El_C 17:50, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Speaking only for myself, if the community decides that it hasn't actually been resolves some conflicts that need resolving that's what ArbCom is for. However, ArbCom is a very costly process in the sense that you have a dozen or so arbs focused on the dispute. And so it would be my hope that for conflicts involving a pair of editors that the community could find some effective means of dispute resolution, even if it's not ANI in its current form. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:10, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

ArbCom is a very costly process in the sense that you have a dozen or so arbs focused on the dispute From my perspective, that's a problem with the Committee and not ANI, and should be addressed through reform of the Committee if necessary. I also think people's expectations of the complexity of Committee proceedings are colored by just how ridiculously selective they have become with case requests, leading to cases generally amassing years of evidence from a half dozen or a dozen stakeholders and other regulars. It doesn't have to be this way, and I believe the Committee should be routinely taking less complex cases.

To put it differently, let's look at conflicts on a continuum, ranging from truly routine, minor disagreements to multi-year, multi-party intractable disputes. Now let's overlay different dispute resolution processes onto that continuum. At the very bottom, we have article and user talk pages. Above that might be forum-like venues along the lines of the Teahouse, helpdesk, requests for editor assistance. Past that are more specialized, topical noticeboards like WP:BLPN. Above those tend to be WP:ANI and (for certain topic areas) WP:AE. And above that, there's a big gap, until you hit the bottom level of case that the Committee is willing to take. The aim of the discussion here, in part, is to address that gap—cases that are too complex for ANI to handle effectively but not complex enough for the Committee to accept. And much of the discussion has focused on changing ANI to cover that gap better. And there's something to be said for improving ANI, but I don't think it's reasonably possible for it to fully cover that gap. Rather, the Committee should be doing more work to bridge the gap.

Seriously, Committee cases don't need to be that hard or involved. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 05:41, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• I really want to highlight this part of El_C's comment: There's a dynamic that happens when a wall of text OP, for example, can still be parsed by those involved, but everyone else is effectively shutout. This causes a lot of tangential problems that weren't obvious until I started trying to action walls-of-text-complaints at ANI. I definitely agree with Boing! said Zebedee above that just letting people vent can be helpful sometimes, but bludgeoning discussions really chills intervention. This allows problematic but not egregious conduct to usually go unresolved because one side essentially filibusters until we get a no consensus outcome. The danger I've run into is when there's actually a rough consensus among all that noise, but the number of participants is small. The restriction is appealed on the basis that it should have been a no consensus result or that the closer prejudiced the editor by ignoring the walls of text. It's hit or miss on whether it actually gets overturned, but by creating new conflicts we really wind up kicking the can when we should have been putting it in the bin (see also meatball:ConflictCycle and the more useful meatball:ConflictResolution). — Wug·a·po·des​ 21:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

  It's one of the challenges for collaborative, online decisions-making I've written about: in a face-to-face conversation, participants would use interruptions and other cues to keep one person from dominating conversation and to help more reticent participants be heard. Online communities benefit from having moderators manage discussions to mitigate these issues. I appreciate there are shortcomings to having moderators, but the cost is having meandering conversations that forestall decision-making. isaacl (talk) 22:56, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

  Well, moderators would have to be admins, wouldn't they, and we've already highlighted the problem that admin participation here is less than it might be. In any case, a certain amount of self-moderation is already in effect. I'm thinking of hatting irrelevant asides, urging participants to return to the initial point, creating new sub-sections to either deal with ancillary issues which have arisen or to refocus on the main thrust of the discussion and so on. To a certain extent, "meandering" is a positive thing, as it allows all aspects of a subject to be examined, including the behavior of the OP or other editors involved in a dispute. These issues don't arise so much at AE, because the focus is much tighter: the reported editor and the evidence of their supposed violations. If discussions get sidetracked into the behavior of another editor, the usual response will be to suggest another report be filed. That's not so much the case at ANI, where traditionally the behavior of all participants is examined. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

  Exactly. In fact, moderation already happens: We get threads closed and sometimes collapsed, and warring over those things will easily net a block. The problem is that bottom-level civility moderation just isn't happening enough. But as you say, that has to be backed up with an admin at some level. Creating a new clerk position is... really not going to fix things. It might attract hat collectors, and as such might create a new stepping stone either to adminship or to a Committee seat, but I really don't see formalized moderator/clerk positions doing anything when what is claimed to be happening is insufficient participation.

  And as usual, BMK, you hit it right on the head. That ANI threads drift about and investigate everybody isn't a bug, it's a feature. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 06:13, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

  No, moderators don't have to be admins; they just have to be someone who the participants are willing to follow. (The libertarian roots of the Wikipedia community works against this.) Moderators are capable of prompting participants to explore all aspects of a situation while also keeping them on track. This saves everyone time and reduces their cognitive effort, which thus increases the likelihood that a resolution can be reached. isaacl (talk) 06:47, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

  Moderators are capable of prompting participants to explore all aspects of a situation while also keeping them on track. That’s not a moderator, that’s a mediator. Or an arbitrator, if this moderator is also tasked with closing discussions. I’d rather see the Committee deal with cases that require this sort of handholding than creating a parallel system. Forcing this restructuring on ANI reminds me of the efforts from years ago to expand AFD to cover non-deletion situations because of how much traffic AFD had. These proposals were all rightly defeated because they were seen for what they really were: Attempts to have a system nobody wanted to participate in on its own merits to coattail-ride on a system that many people already participated in. Let’s be clear: ANI’s popularity isn’t a resource that can be redirected elsewhere. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 19:34, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

  Because "mediator" on Wikipedia tends to be associated with the formal mediation process, I chose to use the term "moderator" in the sense of what you would see in real world discussion panels: someone who manages and guides the discussion. (Also, mediation occurs between the disputing parties, whereas discussions at the incidents noticeboard include uninvolved parties.) The English Wikipedia arbitration process doesn't really guide discussion; it leaves everyone to raise the points they wish in a somewhat structured manner. I appreciate that amongst those who like to discuss these matters, there hasn't been much interest in having someone guide and manage discussion, which leads to the challenges I described with unmoderated online discussions. isaacl (talk) 20:39, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The ease of use, the low overhead, and the minimum of bureaucracy all make ANI an effective venue as it stands. If individual cases need more structure, it can be given. But to require all that effort to just report an unusual vandal or an LTA, that's nuts. Before adminship, I almost never reported folks at AE or AN3 or the like because the reporting was confusing and took time. Reporting at ANI is super simple. Our one requirement at ANI, that you must inform the party you report, is already barely followed by newbies. I can't imagine new policies will see any higher rates of use than our simplest. Not to say that I wouldn't welcome some reform, a word limit perhaps would do the most. But AE/ArbCom style structure is unnecessary. All in all: this is a solution for a problem that does not exist and will only serve to grow our already bloated bureacracy. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:25, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Is this the right venue?

Although this discussion has been interesting and informative, I do not think that AN is frequented by a sufficient percentage of the community to justify making a major change in an essential community dispute resolution process - ANI -- based on a discussion here. I suggest that this discussion be closed and either re-opened or ported over to WP:Centralized discussions as a formal RfC to allow wider community involvement. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:25, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

...so I think it's appropriate to bring it here for a bit more input before making a formal proposal at the village pump, wrote the OP. Levivich ^harass/_hound 04:27, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I'll just point out that AN has both more watchers and more page views than any of the Village Pumps. Bigger picture, I agree this was intended to be a discussion prior to any formal proposal which I would agree with BMK should be advertised through CENT. So I would hope whatever happens next addresses some of the concerns raised here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:23, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• Yeah this should've gotten stuck in an informal VP thread with a T:CENT listing, and maybe a notice of discussion posted here (similar to how the Committee advertises important announcements here). 69.174.144.79 (talk) 06:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

  At a discussion about conduct resolution systems at the VP idea lab, ... is how the OP starts. It doesn't make sense to me that after the informal VP thread, there should be another informal VP thread. I suggested to Ros at the VP thread that input be sought at the administrator's noticeboard about Ros's idea for the Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents sub-page. So as explained in the OP, the path we're on is: informal VP -> admin input -> formal proposal, and we're at the bolded middle part right now. I can't imagine why this would be the wrong venue for this step, and I find the first paragraph of the OP to be exceedingly clear about this. Of course I agree with BMK and BK that any formal proposal should be listed at CENT. Levivich ^harass/_hound 06:53, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

  It should've stayed where it was is my point. A notice could've been posted here. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 08:32, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

  If the point was to get more input on it, I think that's happened, and things can move on to the next formal step. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:14, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Looking to create a "draft" of a category

Greetings. An category that I had been working on Category:Hong Kong people of Shanghainese descent was recently deleted via WP:CFD. While I was advised by the closing admin to go to WP:DRV to appeal this deletion, I decided such a route is not preferable at this time. Rather I'd like some way to "incubate" the concept of a particular category somewhere for the time being in a public space to allow for concurrent review by other WP editors. There currently no AFC of Draft program available for categories, and when I tried creating a double namespace url "Draft:Category:", it told me to come here to request creation of the page. Thanks for everyone's and attention.--Prisencolin (talk) 05:33, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Prisencolin, my main question would be why you think creating this draft category page would be useful; not only was there a pretty strong consensus to delete the category, but also the category page itself had little more than a one-line explanation. Primefac (talk) 14:06, 28 January 2021 (UTC) (please do not ping on reply)

If you look at the earlier discussion here there were a few more votes opposing deletion. My main concern is that there is not proper space to work on deleted categories after they've been deleted. As far as the definition of the category goes, there is an article Shanghainese people in Hong Kong, which describes in much greater detail what the category is about.--Prisencolin (talk) 20:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• What all is there to do in drafting a category anyway? The description page? Make it in userspace like you would any other userspace draft. The list of articles you'll include? Same.
  I concur with Primefac, though, that it's extremely unlikely that there's any amount of work you can do that would result in a different outcome were the category recreated. To be honest, the policies and practices underlying categorization confuse the hell out of me, and probably should be examined by the greater community in some way. I suspect, but haven't looked, that the consensusmaking at CFD may be a sort of walled garden. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 09:18, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Inclusion criteria mostly, and like you mentioned the articles I would include. I still think there was honest misunderstanding about what the category was supposed to entail, and I tried in vain to show that this is not some kind of category that could be rife with corner cases.--Prisencolin (talk) 09:57, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Admin help needed at CAT:RFU

I am aware that we are all volunteers here and I'm not trying to harass or pressure anyone, but there is a significant backlog at WP:RFU and I've already reviewed many of the requests or they are beyond my expertise, so if anyone is available to help out, it would be appreciated; I've tried to keep the backlog down but it keeps creeping up. 331dot (talk) 10:29, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Do you mean CAT:RFU? WP:RFU isn't backlogged. Hut 8.5 12:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. 331dot (talk) 13:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I tried keeping it on a single-figure level for a month, if I remember correctly. It's amazing how quickly this builds up again. When you think the category is clear and wake up the next morning, it has returned to the state of the previous morning. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:25, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, seriously. I think the big problem is, as 331dot identifies, some of the requests just aren't straight-forward accepts or declines, and so tend to linger on in the backlog as nobody wants to take action. I plan to do a full pass over all the requests this weekend (to end out January) and I'll probably decline any long-standing requests that I don't feel comfortable unblocking. That's on the assumption that no other admin has seen fit to take action on these long-standing requests, either, so (hand-wave hand-wave) the consensus is the unblock request is insufficient. --Yamla (talk) 13:36, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

That would be very helpful, thank you very much. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:29, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I'll swing by later today, and see what I can help with. SQL^{Query me!} 15:40, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Script for dealing with the current wave of BLP violations

ANI reports: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#TikTok_raid_discussion

As the list of BLP violations at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AbuseLog&wpSearchFilter=1112 is continuously being updated, with many vandalism-only accounts being created to introduce unverifiable material about living persons into articles, there seems to be a need for an unusually drastic countermeasure. In many cases, not reacting to the "disallow" entries with a block leads to filter evasion a few minutes later.

The script User:ToBeFree/antivandalism-temp.js, based on User:Enterprisey/quick-vand-block, adds a "block-BLPvio" link to logs, indefinitely blocking registered users and temporarily blocking unregistered users after a short confirmation dialogue.

To adjust the temporary block duration (I currently use two weeks, which may be a bit much in some cases but seems appropriate for single IPv6s) or the block message, simply create a copy in your own userspace.

The script will be removed or deleted as soon as the wave becomes manageable by other means. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:23, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that this is a current wave, rather than what we normally get? Blocking by bot is an extraordinary method that needs an extraordinary situation to allow. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:35, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, a TikTok user told people to add their names to their hometowns and other locations, and an edit filter was needed to track it. Primefac (talk) 18:57, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

OK, I see. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:59, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Primefac, Ah so thats whats causing it. I was wondering already why I was getting so many of those in Huggle Asartea ^{Talk | Contribs} 08:58, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't say this is blocking by bot; I'm just reducing the amount of Twinkle clicks for my manual blocks. I would just have changed Twinkle's default settings to match the situation, but Twinkle has no options for default blocking reason and duration.

My description was unclear in this regard. There is no bot-blocking; the script just adds a block button next to the user's "talk" link. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:23, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Not saying I disagree with the blocks, but can someone explain the rationale to me? Are we blocking everyone who trips the filter or are we looking for a specific pattern? It seems the filter is set to disallow so what does blocking get us? @ToBeFree and Primefac: — Wug·a·po·des​ 19:27, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Wugapodes, in many cases, not reacting to the "disallow" entries with a block leads to filter evasion a few minutes later. Users have a look at the filter and evade it, for example using fake references including empty reference tags along with the exact same edit, unnoticed by the filter. Example diffs: Special:Diff/1003280777, Special:Diff/1003280021. Additional example IP: 41.35.94.48. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:30, 28 January 2021 (UTC) Current IP example added; this happens when I type here for a few minutes instead of having a look at the filter list. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:45, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I personally have not been blocking except for those who are putting inappropriate things along with the name (e.g. "Joe Bloggs, pussy-whipped loser") as most of the accounts are throwaways and I doubt that blocking the frivolous vandals will really amount to much. Primefac (talk) 19:35, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks both, I'll chip away as I find time. My approach so far has been to give short term blocks for tripping the filter multiple times (or successfully avoiding it). SoY's script below would probably help with that work flow too so I'll check that out. If nothing else it helps keep the signal-noise ratio down so we can easily notice and quickly respond to the really bad cases like Primefac notes. — Wug·a·po·des​ 23:16, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Before the filter was set to disallow, you'd see many of the accounts coming back to re-add the vandalism 2-3 times (rarely, even more) after it was reverted. Blocking on sight as an off-wiki-campaigned VOA helped a lot. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Another script

@ToBeFree: Threw this together in a hurry, so probably has stupid bugs, but see User:Suffusion of Yellow/abusecontribs.js. Highlights AbuseLog entries where the same user also has successfully saved at least one edit (anywhere) in the past day. Cyan == none. Green == all tagged "reverted". Red == at least one not tagged "reverted". Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:00, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Sounds like a nice tool, thank you very much -- I just tried it, but nothing seemed to happen. I'll have another look later. Anyway, those without any edits are displayed with a red contributions link, which is already helpful. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

@ToBeFree: Did you click "Live edits" in your tools? :-) Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:00, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Aah :) That works, Suffusion of Yellow. Thanks. The contrast, especially when viewing it with reduced blue light, is a bit too low for me (blue on green/red) and I figured the additional information isn't that useful/new to me, so I'll keep it disabled for now. But thanks for sharing! ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:04, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

@ToBeFree: Ok, you can override the CSS from your common.css (read the source to find the class names). How were you to able to see if unregistered users had contribs? They all show up as blue to me. Only registered users' contribs links are red. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 01:39, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Suffusion of Yellow, ah, okay, that would actually be an option. I'll think about creating a small indication; perhaps I'll try to replace the bullet icons by emoji. Regarding IP edits, yeah, the trick sadly only works for accounts, so I click the IP addresses. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:28, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

It's amazing how many of those notable people have either fat asses or huge cocks. Strange. Drmies (talk) 23:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• Tag to the next admin: you're it. Drmies (talk) 00:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

"Gamers" and "legends" also seem to be unusually well represented. I'm surprised no one has had the meta-humor yet to describe themselves as "Wikipedia vandal". Antandrus (talk) 00:48, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Antandrus, I have actually seen at least one of those I think somwhere Asartea ^{Talk | Contribs} 09:01, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Being any of these does not give you automatic notability

• da plug
• local white boy
• textile artist
• most famous phat ass
• local menace
• PHATTTT ass no cap
• award winning weeb
• the people’s champ
• Da Boii who do Books now
• Big Juicy Azz
• hottest person 2021
• pug
• Saint/Animal Rights Activist/Best Cleaning Lady in the world
• sexy student
• famous Gibraltarian Tiktok influencer
• worst gamer ever!
• little fuckhead
• biggest bunda
• ailurophile
• phattest ass
• swaggy as fuck
• hokage
• Local pimp
• fart master Drmies (talk) 02:43, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Update: my daughter just confessed most of these were hers, esp. the "swaggy as fuck" one. Where did I go wrong, and how did she grab all those IPs?? Floquenbeam, I need an intervention. Drmies (talk) 02:56, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
    • Drmies, sadly life doesn't really have WP:AN/CR (Administrator's Noticeboard/Child-Rearing) ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 04:17, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
    • Drmies, Hey, hey, Textile Artist!! I used to resemble that remark! (Actually earned an income, and taught classes that people enjoyed. Ah, those were the days. :-) Now, I am relegated to a list of descriptors I don't understand. :-( Guess I will edit WP. Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 07:28, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
      • User:Gwennie-nyan, User:Tribe of Tiger, "phat ass" and variations of "have huge schlong" are still the winners, I'm afraid. But in my book you're ALL winners, the GOAT, etc. Textile artist doesn't sound like the worst job in the world... I love watching people weave or make lace... Drmies (talk) 19:26, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Pending changes

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T273317

Are there any other admins who are unable to apply pending changes at the moment? I have the option to apply semi-protection, and when I click "unlock further portection options", move protection becomes available. Pending changes, however, remains greyed out and unclickable. This is just another set back in a series of extremely irritating changes that have afflicted me today, including being unable to use the "start a new section" tab without it launching a "topic box" that doesn't include any of my wikimarkup buttons or scripts. I've checked WP:VPT and don't see anything recent covering the changes.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:36, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Ponyo, I've had the same problem happen to me (not often, but every once in a while) for years and years now. Luckily, it didn't take me long to figure out a work-around. I click on the question mark above the pending changes header in the protection window, which takes me to WP:PC, then I go back, and viola! Now the pending changes option becomes clickable (full disclaimer: 90 percent of the time I remove rather than add it, but that is a conversation for another time). Anyway, maybe that'll also work for you...? El_C 22:45, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Alas, no. I've logged out and back in again and still no joy. -- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

El_C 22:55, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I am not having any issues at the moment.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:09, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@Ponyo: can you duplicate this? If so please post over at WP:VPT and we'll check in on it. — xaosflux ^Talk 12:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Possibly the same issue that has caused some editors to loose autoconfirmation? DrKay (talk) 13:01, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@DrKay: that seems unlikely - please post over at WP:VPT and/or open a phab ticket with details of what you are seeing so it can get followed up on. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:45, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I see no reason to double post. The current discussion there is sufficient. DrKay (talk) 15:48, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@DrKay: what do you mean by some editors to loose autoconfirmation? Are they no longer a member of autoconfirmed, and getting hit with things like CAPTCHAs? Or are they only having a problem with autoaccept as reported in Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Some_pending_changes_edits_which_should_be_auto-accepted? — xaosflux ^Talk 19:00, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I mean the autoaccept problem. DrKay (talk) 19:06, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the reports, this looks like more technical issues related to phab:T234743 and its subtasks. — xaosflux ^Talk 19:19, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Users that know the Wikipedia system using that ability to contort pages.

I would like review into AleatoryPonderings and Tartan357 and their contributions to the Chad Wolf page, prior admin issues, and Talks.

That their ability and bias was used to present loaded questions in previous talks, fast track, and ended in protecting confusion; getting it in with little time until known administration changes. But When the topic of Chad Wolfs change in position, and needed change in opening sentence, was brought up by me they showed biased support away from the spirit of useful information while time constraint was cited as the reason NOT to this time. The Chad Wolf page continues to read that he is still in charge of DHS. ..Unless you follow an unintuitive double negative in the first sentence that needs 5 more sentences and a nest of commas to try to explain; with the info box adding more confusion because the title that was confirmed certain is placed below one that was never legally held...and neither mention POSITION as previously held and end date of the initial position comes at the end of the confusing paragraph? :::This will be my last time on this site for a long time. While they can argue that they followed all known procedures I place this post calling the actions of AleatoryPonderings and Tartan357 actions lawful evil in alignment as they avoid clarity and precedents set by other cabinet positions (Ratcliff, sessions, Vought et al). Would admin, or someone that knows how the weird backside of this site runs, please bring these errors higher if you think it needs it. Farewell. 2605:AD80:40:472:993E:3AAE:A0BB:969A (talk) 00:24, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

This will be my last time on this site for a long time So you've lobbed a grenade and are running away? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:07, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

This is hilarious. ITS NOT FAIR, IT SHOULD WORK Drmies (talk) 02:58, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

The article appears to be correct now, but that is not going to stop an angry IP editor from flouncing away in protest. If they actually do. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:39, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Someone ought to do something about it.--WaltCip-(talk) 18:39, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

• While I expected my character to be judged, I didn't expect it to be the only thing mentioned on a formal request to review admin, and those knowledgeable, using their authority one way for what they like, and another way to protect confusion. :I'm guessing you all are admin, or powerusers, if you are here... I expected better. Not this silly attack on my character. To the above mentioning me leaving (lobing grenades) I work in mortuary affairs and don't have time, haven't kissed the correct wiki admins butts, and don't have the energy to comment on all of your biased use of skills and obvious need to ridicule me for seeking what I think is just a review into their content and character. May any and all, including higher admin, please take note of those only providing humiliation and exclusion in THIS talk about if someone is using OTHER talks incorrectly. I would like to include all above users in a review of their character and what attempts at humiliation, exclusion, misdirection, and deflection they directed at me, a new user, in this talk. 2605:AD80:40:472:993E:3AAE:A0BB:969A (talk) 00:16, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
  • If you think coming to the noticeboard and laying out accusations against the conduct of another editor means your conduct won't be just as scrutinized, with the potential that the user who is a problem can be determined to be you, I have some bad news for you. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:50, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

• • • Agreed. "Responders: Investigate fully" as provided by the deflection link of Bushranger above. man you all are exhausting. Gladly my kid has time to help me with this crap so this didn't really turning into the grenade also hastily and falsely mentioned by a Bushranger above... Twice now Bushranger has been rash, hasty, exclusive, and aggressive in attacking review of admin and powerusers creation of bias in talk pages.... interesting.2605:AD80:40:472:993E:3AAE:A0BB:969A (talk) 03:34, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

IP, you are acting like a bull in a china shop. We've all seen that a thousand times before. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:49, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

9 comments now..? Not one mention of the original sentence except to laugh at or place blame and scare tactics towards me. I am an IP glass figurine.. wondering why blacksmiths are only using their hammers in a biased way to protect confusion and each other. Now I think this very talk and the above comments has proved my point. "Responders: Investigate fully" as provided in Bushrangers link above will help with any further response, since they are all the same so far. Take care.2605:AD80:40:472:993E:3AAE:A0BB:969A (talk) 17:32, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

You might want to consider that if they're "all the same so far", perhaps that is because the problem is you. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:00, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Admins might want to consider that this IP really doesn't have a temperament suited to Wikipedia. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:49, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Userspace question

I've just had a vandal (Turd 2 curd) create number of pages in my userspace with abusive content and edit summaries. I've requested oversight for the edit summaries, and I've tagged all the files with "db-vandalism", and the user is indeffed, but I'd like to know if there's any way to prevent anyone from creating files in my userspace aside from myself, in case they return. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:49, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

In theory, we could add your userspace to the title blacklist (which would also prevent you from creating pages, unless either we only restrict it to autoconfirmed people only or you become an admin or account creator or whatever), but historically, that has only been done in the most extreme cases AFAIK. Apart from that, I don't think so. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 05:16, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Since I had never heard of such a thing, I suspected as much. Oh, well, I'll just deal with any repeats on an ad hoc basis. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:18, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, report, block, ignore. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:44, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Will do. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:44, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, that looks like Evlekis to me. I second the RBI advice. Pahunkat (talk) 21:41, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm... If so, wonder what put the burr up their behind? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:50, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Not sure, I guess it's just Evlekis. Also, see Wikipedia:Edit filter noticeboard#Filter 733 in terms of vandals creating pages in other people's userspace. Pahunkat (talk) 22:02, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Contentious AFD at Michael Sayman

• Michael Sayman (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Sayman (3rd nomination) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Purplehippo458 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The previous two AFDs deleted the article, and the second AFD was closed on 12 January 2021, but the article was then re-created by Purplehippo458 on 30 January 2021. The second AFD was heated, with one editor demanding that another editor be blocked (and the closer, correctly, saying that AFD does not block editors). The third AFD is heated, and two editors filed requests at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard requesting assistance within an hour of each other, one saying that additional editors were needed to participate in the AFD, and the other saying that they thought that there had been off-wiki canvassing. These requests were closed because DRN is not a deletion forum, because DRN is not the forum to report canvassing, and not the forum to do canvassing. I am reporting this here at WP:AN because, first, AN is the forum to report contentious discussions that need admin attention, and, second, AN is the forum to report possible off-wiki canvassing. (I have no evidence of canvassing, but am only noting the mention of canvassing.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:23, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

English Wikipedia user using alternate account to call Polish Wikipedia editors to Axis Powers

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It has been a while, and I hope this is the right board. Over at the Polish Wikipedia, User:Hanyangprofessor2 which is a User:Piotrus alternative account, posted this call to arms. Piotrus is blaming "Russian editors" for comparing the USSR to Poland and "starting a vote" at en: Talk: Axis_powers # Poll. Piotrus is calling Polish editors to vote and saying that if English is a problem they should: "the Google translation from Polish to English works very well, right button in Chrome and you can translate the whole discussion, and it is also easy to translate your comment / voice from Polish to English and paste there".--Bob not snob (talk) 07:53, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I don't think there's much that can be done from this Wikipedia project. Is there a similar discussion being started over at Polish Wikipedia for the admins there to look at? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 08:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

It is not against the rules of Polish Wikipedia to point a link at the English Wikipedia and asking editors to post comments on English Wikipedia through Google translate. The disruption to voting is on the English Wikipedia, at Talk:Axis powers#Poll. The labeling of English Wikipedia editors as Russian editors is troubling.--Bob not snob (talk) 08:11, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) As a call for arms?! lol... I don't see that, come on :). I can read Polish. Piotrus asks if anyone is interested in the topic and if yes, they invite them to discuss and vote. He doesn't say, "Go there and vote!" Below is the entire post translated to the best of my abilities:

Was Poland an ally of Hitler? Ok, a bit of a shocking title, but on the en wiki in the article en: Axis powers, there is a vote about it (en: Talk: Axis_powers # Poll). It started with a discussion about the USSR. Still, Russian editors are trying to compare the USSR to Poland (Invasion of Poland to Polish participation in the partition of Czechoslovakia, etc.) And they made a vote (they want to eliminate the USSR from the infobox, section as 'Co-belligerence' - I don't know how to translate it into Polish, google gives me współwojowniczość, en: Co-belligerence there is no interwiki for pl, it is about acting on the same side / against the same enemy but without an alliance or adding Poland there. Maybe someone will be interested in this discussion? Feel free to comment/vote, and if English is a problem, then Google translation from Polish to English and the other way around works very well. In Chrome, you can use the right button, and you can translate the whole discussion; and it is also easy to translate your comment/voice from Polish to English and paste it there.GizzyCatBella🍁 08:51, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Tenryuu, this very much is an issue for English Wikipedia. It doesn't matter if the canvassing was at another Wikipedia project or an unrelated web site, or even down the pub (if such places were open). It is still against our rules, as Piotrus full well knows. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:48, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger: Ah, my eyes neglected that it took place on an English Wikipedia talk page. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:59, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Even in my ignorant corner of the world, I know what "Russian editors are trying to..." is calling for. Johnuniq (talk) 09:12, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

• Piotrus needs to explain this timeline:
  • 02:54, 31 January 2021 Piotrus edited at enwiki.
  • 03:05, 31 January 2021 Piotrus posted at plwiki.
  • 03:16, 31 January 2021 Hanyangprofessor2 posted the plwiki comment.
  • Entering "Hanyangprofessor2" at toolforge shows no other edits since 14 Jun 2020 (and that was at enwiki); it was 29 Nov 2019 when Hanyangprofessor2 last edited another project.

  Johnuniq (talk) 09:10, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)@Bob not snob That's a long break you had; the last time you were active was September 8th [15] now you came back 5 month later straight to reporting [16]. I’m guessing you are monitoring reporting procedures[17] that’s good. In any case, welcome back. - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:20, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

@Johnuniq Please be aware that Bob not snob claims, "I came here after seeing this call to arms on the Polish Wikipedia" [18] but they have no edits on Polish Wikipedia. Also, it's important to know that Piotrus has been subject to significant harassment by a user running sock-farm who got banned by Trust and Safety (global ban). I wonder if that sudden account switch by Piotrus has anything to do with that, not sure...I’m curious what Piotrus has to say as far as your concerns. - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:36, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

It reads like rules lawyer friendly canvasing to me, a clear request to join in (and yes it does say vote) to stop "Russian" (as in me, not Russian) (a PA) editors from winning the debate. It a POV loaded call to arms.Slatersteven (talk) 11:19, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

As mentioned on Piotrus' talk page (Soliciting support at pl is canvassing, by definition), this WP:CANVASS violation in a topic which falls under the WP:ACDS (WP:ARBEE) regime is highly problematic, and probably should result in sanctions. Not sure what these should be at this point in time, but I, for one, do not feel a mere warning would suffice, in this case. I am about to WP:ECP the article talk page for the duration (an extreme measure, to be sure), which I will also note there. Sorry, but to be honest, I'm quite speechless. El_C 17:40, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

A shot term TBAN?Slatersteven (talk) 17:45, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

• As someone who deals with the results of canvassing on a regular basis (see for example Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1055#Attack on Stepan Bandera, likely externally coordinated where I essentially was told by the canvassed users that they have a perfect right to do whatever they want), I have a hardline stance here fully realizing that it is not going to be popular. I essentially believe that external canvassing creates evasion of WP:CONSENSUS and, what it worse, creates an impression that one just needs to canvass to a hot discussion a dozen (or, ideally, several dozens) of their friends and then nobody needs to care about the strength of the arguments. I therefore consider canvassing a blockable offense, and, even more, I would recommend blocking the users who have been clearly canvassed to the discussion (not being regular en.wp editors recently, but being regular editors of the project canvassing has taken place). Again, I do not expect this to be a popular opinion, but wanted to make it heard at least.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:34, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
• I must say that I agree with El_C's disppointment here. We had a discussion that was coming to its obvious common-sense conclusion that of course Poland shouldn't be regarded as a "co-belligerent" with the axis powers, but the discussion was then polluted with this canvassing. What the fuck were you thinking of, Piotrus? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:48, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
• Ten years since WP:EEML, the only thing that surprises me is that people are surprised. Levivich ^harass/_hound 19:21, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

• Well, I, for one, am surprised because I didn't know EEML existed. El_C 20:09, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

• Yeah, I'm learning something every day on Wikipedia...I keep thinking about it... at first, I thought this is just a natural thing to connect with other editors who might be interested in the topic... I still believe that the message itself wasn't awkward because Piotrus never told others how to vote or what to say. He simply told them what is going on....but a similar note should be given to the Russian Wikipedia since the Russians were mentioned (when I think about it)... to get the opportunity for the other side to voice their opinion...(if there is that another "Russian side"..) IDK... Did you ever think about it Piotrus? Yeah, I'm so curious what he has to say. Piotrus is such a valuable and well-balanced editor.. It would be so sad to see him sanctioned for this slip. Oh Gosh... - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:24, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
  • GizzyCatBella, are you saying you didn't know EEML existed? SarahSV ^(talk) 20:57, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

@SarahSV No, I knew it; I just didn't pay much attention to it. I did some reading about it now, but that's old stuff. I referred to posting any notes on other Wikipedia's and that this might be a sanctionable offence. Now I know :) I'm learning something every day. Hey guys, if a Wikipedia user has, for example, a Twitter account and post similar note as a tweet, is this regarding as offence as well or this only applies to Global Wikipedia? - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:47, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I recall during an AE in May 2020 discussing how your early edits restored Poeticbent's versions of articles. I'm sorry, I find it impossible to believe you're not familiar with EEML. SarahSV ^(talk) 21:52, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Sarah... I said I knew it. Did you read what I wrote? - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:09, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

And I believe you haven't only heard of it but are deeply familiar with it. Now that El C is aware of it too, attitudes may change. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:12, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

• • I believe there is not a single Russian Wikipedia participant in the linked discussion.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:06, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
    • At same time it looks like there may be ONE account !voting there that is there because of the post, out of couple dozen. The rest is all en-wiki regulars of the topic area. So it looks like it really had no effect (except for this here) - pl wiki and en wiki are just two different worlds. Volunteer Marek 21:55, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
    • I should also add that it looks like Ymblanter is correct, not just here, but in general. The whole "Nazi Germany and Poland were actually allies" IS in fact Putin's propaganda of the last few years, which I'm guessing is the connection here, but I've never seen any Russian editor on en-wiki pushing that line. Volunteer Marek 22:03, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

The whole "USSR and Nazi Germany were allies" might, conversely, also be a position which is not quite accurate. Nevertheless, going over the criteria of WP:CANVASS, the post by Piotrus is clearly biased and inappropriate, and given that it might be based on the assumption that Polish editors would rush to prevent any "Russian propaganda", it might as well be considered an attempt at vote stacking. The Eastern Europe area has clearly been and remains a tricky area, and editors promoting various personal viewpoints which are very thinly sourced is certainly not helping the matter; and well ArbCom might have to get involved again, especially if there are further more serious breaches of behavioural policies such as this one. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:43, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

First, I apologize for using the unfortunate term 'Russian editors'. I posted the message without proofreading it. In the hindsight, I shouldn't have made any assumptions, generalizations, or comments about other editors, my bad. Again, sorry about that. I refactored this on pl wiki.

Second, I don't think crossposting information about an RfC to another wiki violates any guidelines? I think my post was limited in scale, neutral, (well, I could've formulated that one above-mentioned part better, my bad), nonpartisan (I posted to the Polish equivalent of the WP:MILHIST noticeboard, which I have nor reason to believe is infested by partisan editors, unless one thinks Poles in general - or Russians - should not participate in this discussions about Poland or Russia at all...) and open to the public (and scrutiny). I didn't tell people to vote in a specific way, I just informed them that a discussion and a vote are happening, per Linus's law - the more people participate in a discussion, the better, that's the point of an RfC in the first place, after all. If I spoke Russian I'd have crossposted a similar note to Russian Wikipedia too. I am hardly in a habit of posting such cross-wiki notifications, and if anyone thinks I could've done this better, I'd appreciate further advice on best practices regarding cross-wiki notifications of RfCs.

Third. I used a recognized and publicly disclosed alternative account since for over a year now I've been subject to some serious harassment, on- and off-wiki, originating from an editor who is now globally banned (by WMF's Trust&Safety) but has kept on socking (see relevant SPI here). The harassment lessened in the last few months, so hoping fo a closure, I figured out that if my edits are still being closely stalked (as they were before), my post would elicit a reaction (since part of said harassment pattern included bogus AE/ANI reports, see for example JolantaAJ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log); and what made me decide to test if this stalking continues was an appearance of a possible sock that IMHO matched the behavioral patterns of the sock master in question. So I decided to make a post that would not violate any rules but that I was sure my stalker, if aware of it, would try to misrepresent and use to cause trouble for me. I thought I was being overly paranoid, given it was an obscure forum and I used a mostly dormant alternative account, but instead of the hoped-for closure to my stalking incident, alas... a new suspicious account activated, made an inflammatory talk page referring to my cross-wiki notification as a 'call to arms' ([19]), claimed to have seen my post on pl wiki despite never editing it before, and reported me here. Now, Bob account was registered on 2019-11-05. Identified socks of my harasser from what I think of the 'first sock wave' include: I dream of Maple (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (2019-11-09), KasiaNL (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (2019-11-18), AstuteRed (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (2019-10-26). Smoking gun? Perhaps not. But food for thought, perhaps?

Anyway, I apologize if my actions were improper. The year-long stalking/harassment I've been experiencing has been very stressful, and perhaps in my attempt to prove to myself my stalker is gone, I went a bit too far with that sock fishing rouse. I will avoid such stupid stunts and do my best to adhere to best practices again just like I've done for years past.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:07, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. I learned of WP:EEML a couple of days ago from User:Catlemur posting that is almost prophetic. Back at the EEML case, Piotrus made promises never to CANVASS again. And yet here we are.--Astral Leap (talk) 00:46, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I learned of EEML a couple of days ago - Let me be clear here. Are you sure about that Astral Leap? Did you learn about EEML just a couple of days ago, or did you know about it before? Like ... maybe ... from being on the list yourself? Was your "crime fighting dog" on there too? Volunteer Marek 02:46, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

This gets weirder and weirder by the second. Who is "crime fighting dog"? Did he changes his username too? I was not on EEML, I was not active then. But you, Volunteer Marek, were. old username redirects to User:Volunteer Marek. EEML has: finding for old username and topic ban for old username.--Astral Leap (talk) 03:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

VM, you just reverted, with the edit summary "undo an attempt to intimidate via doxxing", AL's edit that pointed out you were a party to the EEML case under a previous username (which of course wasn't doxxing because your previous username is public, yours is not a WP:VANISHed or WP:CLEANSTART account, and your being an EEML party is of course relevant since you've chosen to comment here)... and then in your very next edit, you insinuate that AL was, like you, a party to the EEML case. The hypocrisy! Levivich ^harass/_hound 03:38, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Levivch, I strongly suggest you refrain from and strike your personal attack. Accusing someone of "hypocrisy!" is a personal attack. It's also false as I'm sure you well understand. Astral Leap did not edit Wikipedia under his real username, not now nor not when he was on the EEML list. I did, back in my naive days, did edit under my real name. Part of the reason I changed my username is precisely because of real life harassment. Now Astral Leap is trying to exploit that fact by gratuitously linking to the redirect page for my old username. Not once. But repeatedly. He's rubbing it in. He's using it as an intimidation/harassment tactic. He could've made his point without doing that. But he chose not to. He's doxxing And I'm fairly certain you're aware of this what the situation is. So. Why are you enabling him and supporting him in this? This is pretty shameful. Volunteer Marek 03:48, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

• Heinous personal attack. I started the RfC. I am not Russian. "They made a vote" refers to me. Calling me Russian is a vile ethnic based personal attack, in addition to this blatant transgression of Piotrus's past assurances. I propose concrete proposals of actions below.--Astral Leap (talk) 00:49, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

  Astral Leap, I didn't realize you were the creator of the RfC. I am not sure I fully follow why calling someone a Russian would be "a vile ethnic based personal attack" (I know some Russians who may take an offense at that), but in either case, I apologize for causing any offense. I see you have been on Wikipedia for barely a year now. Congratulations on figuring out how to use tools like RfC, AN(I) and like so quickly, it took me years to get there. We are all here to build an encyclopedia. Have you read WP:AGF yet? Let's try to be friends. Again, no offense was meant, against you or anyone else. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:00, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

  I am not Russian, I am not Polish, I am not Australian. Calling me something that I am not is a personal attack. I propose below actions based on Ymblanter's proposal, WP:EEML#Digwuren restricted, WP:EEML#Piotrus topic banned, and WP:EEML#Piotrus banned.--Astral Leap (talk) 01:10, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

  I also voted against including Poland in the infobox, I added Poland after it was brought up by Catlemur and TheTimesAreAChanging, and pushed into the article by Erin Vaxx. I think adding Poland should be quashed in the same vote as the USSR dispute. So posting on Polish Wikipedia that I am part of a conspiracy to add Poland is false too.--Astral Leap (talk) 01:26, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

• Astral Leap, Nothing is white and black, indeed. You may note that I actually voted for including the Polish section in the article's body, and supported, on the same talk page, the inclusion of said new section about Polish diplomatic cooperation with the Axis pre-war, despite said section being written by a very new account (Erin Vaxx, account created last September, Total edits so far: 28, and whom you yourself describe as "having pushed... Poland... into the article"), and having been criticized by some other editors as disparaging or unfair to Poland. It's good to find the middle ground. And of course, there is no conspiracy and I certainly haven't said one exists (or that you are part of it). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:41, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Astral Leap I recognize that you are under a one-way interaction ban with me, so I apologize to you AL. I know you can't defend yourself concerning my criticism. I believe that one should not use it as an edge and avoid commenting on the sanctioned opponent out of respect. So please don't see it like that; I still respect you. However, I have to mention that this comment of yours is offending[20]. I have a Russian among my ancestors, and I'm offended. What's wrong with being Russian? Definition of a personal attack is a "Derogatory comment". Calling someone Russian is not derogatory. I'm also still surprised how much knowledge you display - and how much you care about EEML. For someone who joined the Wikipedia project 11 months ago...anyway, I understand you can't answer, so please just note my criticism. - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:47, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

• As a participant in the Axis discussion, I would like to say that this episode is being blown way out of proportion by bad-faith editors, very possibly sock puppets, scenting blood and gunning for Piotrus, who not only is a valuable editor, the author of over a thousand DYKs and dozens of FAs and GAs, but has apologized for a minor transgression that didn’t even materially affect the discussion outcome. Perhaps a warning is in order, at most — and then I would encourage administrators to do some thorough checks on these new accounts, inexplicably expert in arcane Wikipedia procedures. - Biruitorul ^Talk 01:48, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

  Biruitorul, Thank you for the kind words. Having considered the comments by various uninvolved editors here, I see how the cross-wiki message was inappropriate, and I can only apologize for this error again and promise to exercise better judgment in the future. For understanding best practices, I would appreciate community advice on whether it is advisable not to make such cross-wiki notifications at all, or would it have been fine if I also notified the Russian Wikipedia? Or perhaps I missed another best practice step here? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:04, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

  I thought I had seen everything when Piotrus fulfilled Catlemur's 30th January prophecy of WP:EEML. Then Biruitorul defends Piotrus, and I see Biruitorul was in EEML too: WP:EEML#Biruitorul, WP:EEML#Biruitorul topic banned.--Astral Leap (talk) 02:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Astral, thank you for bringing those personal attacks and battleground insults from Catlemur to everyone's attention. It looks like a block would be in order against that user. I'm not clear why you would want to cheer on that user's disruptive behavior here and engage in it yourself. Volunteer Marek 02:26, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: Once again you are threatening to get me blocked, all while churning excuses for people engaged in clear cut canvassing and other offenses that are far worse than NPA (assuming it took place). If you want to morally police WP maybe try and treat all parties involved equally.--Catlemur (talk) 10:24, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I am shaking my head in disbelief, how many editors from EEML comment here? old username redirects to User:Volunteer Marek. EEML has: finding on old username and topic ban on old username.--Astral Leap (talk) 02:37, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

You're right, there's all kinds of editors who were on EEML commenting here. Volunteer Marek 04:29, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) [Sorry, still writing in haste, so briefly:] Comeon, Piotrus, I think you know (or ought to know) that WP:ACDS (or WP:GS) matters are different. Say I'd consulted only the Hebrew Wikipedia about, of the top of my head: Talk:Pfizer–BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine#Israeli_data_(Jan_28) — that would be totally fine. But doing the same for something involving, say, Israel and the apartheid analogy while neglecting to do the same for the Arab Wikipedia... Well, need I say more? Anyway, I don't even understand why a another-language wiki even needs to be informed about what we're doing here at en, in the first place. What's it to them? El_C 02:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

  El C, You are right. I could repeat my excuse that I was stressed with other stuff, but the fault is mine. I should have translated and crossposted my notification to ru wiki milhist project too (and that would also ensure it would be more neutral to boot). I will certainly do my best to ensure all parties are notified next time (or just avoid cross-wiki postings in the first place). As to why I thought a cross-wiki notice was a good idea, well, I cited Linus's law... (and over the last few years I found cross-wiki notifications useful in the context of deletion discussions, where I have seen a number of articles saved after editors on one wiki's found some sources that were then reported to the other) but why didn't I consider the wider context (the need to notify the Russian Wikipedia to ensure balance, given this is a much more sensitive topic than a non-controversial AfD)? A terrible brain fart on my part. I can only pledge to not repeat this. After all, it's not like I make AN(I)-worthy mistakes often, do I? I will consider myself properly WP:TROUTed. Maybe even whaled. Feel free to template my talk page respectively when this is closed (or even before), I deserve it. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

  Piotrus, I'm sorry for the somewhat staccato nature of my responses as I am rather preoccupied elsewhere (offwiki) at the present moment, but I'm not sure you're appreciating the gravity of this. This is not a WP:TROUT matter. It is a discretionary sanctions one. I already noted this incident in the log (diff), which at the very least ought to serve as a serious admonishment. This is not a violation to be concluded in jest or whimsy, I'm sorry to say (truly). El_C 03:01, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

  El C, El C, I understand, and I consider myself 'seriously admonished'. I am not brushing this off and I can only repeat my apology and promise to be more careful. I did not consider that we were in the DS area (the Axis article was not templated as such until a few hours ago [21] but I understand that such notifications are not always present on all relevant pages, so I am not trying to wikilawyer as an excuse, I should have known and behaved better, and will know and behave better in the future). I hope you'll consider that in the last decade I have had a pretty good track of adhering to the letter and spirit of our project's policies, as indicated by my lack of presence at AN(I), AE and such (as in, I didn't do anything meriting a warning or admonishment in that time, nor was I even a party to an ArbCom hearing). I will try to learn from this incident and try my best to avoid any other errors in judgement, for at least another decade and hopefully much longer. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:15, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

  @Piotrus: Have you ever advertised a pl.wiki RFC on en.wiki? Levivich ^harass/_hound 03:32, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

  Levivich, AFAIK pl wiki retired RfC process in 2007... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

• No sanction at this point - Piotrus and I have clashed on numerous occasions at AFD but I think his editing history speaks for itself. Another episode of canvasing and I might say differently. The content of the infobox at Axis powers is the subject of endless, pointy, trolling behaviour from numerous parties and frankly the latest poll is just another episode of that. This is a pity because the article itself is in a woeful state, poorly referenced, and way too long, yet all the focus goes on who gets the badge of shame of being in the infobox. FOARP (talk) 09:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

If he has been warned (at least once) before there is no excuse, none. There should be some kind of consequences for breaking an agreement not to do something. It does not matter if it did not work, he crossed a line.Slatersteven (talk) 11:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

• It's quite disappointing to see this behavior from Piotrus. Usually he is one of the more evidence-based and reasonable editors who works in the topic area. (t · c) buidhe 11:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
• The idea that someone should get a slap on the wrist because their attempt at canvassing did not really work is ridiculous. To quote WP:CANVASS "Users with a prior history of disruptive canvassing, which they have previously been asked to discontinue, may be blocked immediately without further warning." It is the intent behind the action that matters and the fact that a decade after WP:EEML, there are still people trying to rally outside support against "the Russians".--Catlemur (talk) 13:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

No, Astral Leap, this is not helping. Please refrain. Having a newish account, who is a partisan for the other side, be the one to propose sanctions is just a bad idea, plainly so. El_C 01:07, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

===Propose: Piotrus is restricted to a single account === Due to the deceptive use of User:Hanyangprofessor2 to avoid scrutiny in this canvassing, Piotrus is limited to using a single account.--Astral Leap (talk) 01:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC) Support myself.--Astral Leap (talk) 01:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC) Comment. As I said above, I apologize for the stupid stunt. I do need such an account for the use at work (where the computers are more likely to be compromised). As some may know, I am very involved in promoting Wikipedia activities in the tertiary education setting (see WMF coverage). It wasn't used much last year due to the temporary switch to online classes. I can certainly promise not to use such an account for ill-thought cross-wiki notifications. It happened once and won't happen again. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:11, 1 February 2021 (UTC) ===Propose: Piotrus is blocked for six months === As the last block of Piotrus for canvassing was for three months and in light of broken promises, Pioturs is blocked for six months, double the last block.--Astral Leap (talk) 01:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC) Support myself.--Astral Leap (talk) 01:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC) ===Propose: Piotrus is blocked for six months === As the last topic ban of Pioturs for canvassing was for one year and in light of broken promises, Piotrus is indefinitely topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed.--Astral Leap (talk) 01:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC) Support myself.--Astral Leap (talk) 01:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC) ===Propose: Block canvassed editors from Polish Wikipedia, and strike votes=== Following Ymblanter's suggesstion, to prevent disruption from the canvassing: any editor whose majority of edits is to Polish Wikipedia, who did not edit the English Wikipedia from January 1st 2021 through January 29th 2021, and who participates/participated in Talk:Axis powers#RFC, inclusion of Soviet and Poland as Axis Co-belligerent states shall be deemed as canvassed. Their vote shall be struck, and the account blocked on the English Wikipedia for one month.--Astral Leap (talk) 01:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC) Support myself.--Astral Leap (talk) 01:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus sanctioned, Astral Leap blocked

Please note that I have given Piotrus a wide topic ban from the topic area (-ish) for one month, which I consider to be a fairly mild sanction. I have also blocked Astral Leap for one week for, among other things, having violated WP:3RR in this very complaint. Logged AE actions. Please also note that, unless there are strenuous objections, I intend to close this complaint later this evening. El_C 15:27, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

This isn't exactly a new issue. You may be interested in this finding of fact from ten years ago. If the same behavior by the same people in the same topic area has been going on for more than ten years then I'm not sure a 1 month sanction will solve anything. Mr Ernie (talk) 21:50, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, I have already been introduced to that Arbitration case here yesterday. It has been discussed at some length above by multiple participants. Anyway, here is my sanction notice, in full: You have been sanctioned per this AN report [link] concerning canvassing on the Polish Wikipedia. I realize it did not materialize, but the point is that it could have. I am reasonably confident that you will be cognizant of this in the future, so as to not have this WP:EEML-like incident repeat a decade from now or whenever. Anyway, I think this a relatively mild sanction, but important, for the record. It's possible that the Arbitration Committee may decide to take additional action, but I estimate the likelihood of that as being relatively low. El_C 22:07, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Admin recruitment drive

I became an admin as a result of a recruitment drive. I think that another drive could result in more admins joining the ranks and reducing the workload a little. There are plenty of active editors in good standing out there, some of them might want to take on the mop too. I'm not looking for editors to suggest themselves, but more interested in editors being approached that fellow admins think will be suitable candidates. RfA can be a bit daunting, so probably better to get editors to run that have a better chance of passing. Thoughts? Mjroots (talk) 10:59, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I haven't done a nomination in a while, my last was @Dreamy Jazz: which went well enough. If someone needs a nomination to be willing to take the plunge, I'll happily do so and encourage others to do the same. Also have a couple users I'd like to run, may try to talk them into it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:02, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I can confirm this, and can also confirm that he was very helpful as a nominator. If you are thinking of going for RfA, you can always privately ask an administrator for a rating. Also, if you don't try then you won't know if you would pass. It is stressful, but if you have need for the tools, then go for it. An experienced trusted editor with need should be granted the tools. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 22:52, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I've asked a couple recently. One has declined, the other is thinking about the offer. Mjroots (talk) 15:21, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Attention needed at Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard#Further_discussion_on_potential_bot_disruption

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Some closure is needed regarding the discussion at Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard#Further_discussion_on_potential_bot_disruption. Despite huge amounts of aggravation, MonkBot continues to be run with Task 18 on thousands upon thousands of articles, making reference style changes (MOS:STYLERET and WP:COSMETICBOT), based on a bot approval that had maybe 5 participants. I've blocked the bot on over 250 articles now, but it is getting to the point where I'm just going to make a daily post to its talk page. The discussion has had a flag requesting attention for well over a month. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 18:12, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Talking to the botop at the moment, will have something in the next day or two. Primefac (talk) 18:59, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

In the interim, the bot should be stopped. I have made my first post to do as such.[22] This is in line with a lack of progress made on the steps outlined by WP:BOTISSUE. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 20:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Not clear to me what lack of progress you are seeing. On 16 January you posted a message to my talk page about an edit that the bot made two days earlier. On 18 January you silently reverted a bunch of bot edits and added a {{bots|deny=MonkBot}} template to those articles.

On 31 January you started this discussion immediately after you made this revert which, it appears, is about style. Monkbot had edited that article on 29 December 2020 and then again on 6 January 2021. Both of those edits were made well before you notified me that you thought that the bot was operating outside of its scope (16 January).

Today (2 February) you reverted three other edits that had all been made well before 16 January. So I got to wondering if you were seeing the bot making edits that you don't like after the 16 January notification date. I trolled through Special:Contributions/Floydian looking for mention of monkbot. This table lists the dates of all of reverts that I found (excepting the 18 January silent reverts) and the dates of the associated monkot edits (each date is linked to the edit's diff):

article	Floydian revert	monkbot edit
Ontario Highway 403	20 January 2021	6 January 2021
Ontario Highway 2	20 January 2021	28 November 2020
	18 January 2021	7 January 2021
Ontario Highway 503	24 January 2021	1 January 2021
	18 January 2021	12 January 2021
Ontario Highway 40	27 January 2021	12 January 2021
Ontario Highway 401	31 January 2021	29 December 2020
	(same? only one revert)	6 January 2021
400-series highways	1 February 2021	19 December 2020
Ontario Highway 3	2 February 2021	6 January 2021
	18 January 2021	7 January 2021
Ontario Highway 6	2 February 2021	17 December 2020
	18 January 2021	6 January 2021
Ontario Highway 11	2 February 2021	18 December 2020

Did I miss any? I think that monkbot will only remove all blank lines from a vertical template when removal of a parameter leaves a blank line. Do you have an example of monkbot deleting whitespace in vertical templates where it did not also delete a parameter that left a blank line?

Because your accusation that the bot is making stylistic changes seems to be based on old data, I am going to restart it.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:15, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

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Erreurs sur diverse pages évoquant Mathurin Henrio.

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Bonjour Sur plusieurs pages Wiki, j'ai noté la même erreur. Il s'agit de Mathurin Henrio tué par les Allemands le 10 février 1944. Il n'a pas de pseudo Barioz. C'est une confusion avec un jeune de 16 ans tué le 14 juillet 1944 dans les Glières. Cette mention qui existait sur le site de l'Ordre de la Libération a été rectifié. Je tiens à votre disposition des éléments pour appuyer ceci. J'ai écrit un livre de 200 pages, paru en 2005 retraçant l'histoire de Baud et de Poulmein (nom du lieu et du maquis où Mathurin Henrio a été tué). Cordialement Daniel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB08:8861:8400:3029:AD04:F5DC:E6CE (talk) 18:53, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Daniel, you should discuss this at Talk:Mathurin Henrio. Primefac (talk) 18:59, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

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Need eyes on Talk:The Lincoln Project

There's been some WP:BLP problems at Talk:The Lincoln Project. I'd appreciate it if some more admins could add it to their watchlist to catch problems quickly. The article itself is semi-protected, but I'm hesitant to protect the talk page because that's kind of not cool. If somebody else wants to do that, it's fine with me, but I'm hoping more eyes on it will be sufficient. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:55, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Watchlisted. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:57, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Review of ANI closure by user:El_C

The closure of Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1057#User:Armatura is a sad indident involving two long time, dedicated contributors to Wikipedia. I had hoped it was some misunderstanding that would quickly be solved with a few reasonable words at the user's talk page. Instead, the discussion grew lengthy and ended on the lowest level of our version of Graham's hierarchy of disagreement. Thus, I am sorry that I have to bother the community with what I now only can summarize as follows:

El_C closed a discussion against consensus with the rationale that it was “lengthy” and no indication that they followed the directions of WP:CLOSE.

WP:CLOSE stipulates that "The closer is ... expected ... to judge the result of the debate. [...] To do this, the closer must read the arguments presented.". However, the replies at User_talk:El_C#User:Armatura_report_closure, so far as they are given, are so superficial that they don't show any indication that El_C even read the case. It appears (e.g. from their question at 20:39), that El_C didn't even read the short sections Admin_notice and General comments, the latter showing that there was clear consensus for the way the case was handled and for the recommended consequences. By closing the case with no action, El_C acted against clear consensus, based on personal opinion only. ◅ Sebastian 12:50, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose overturning the close because technically, it was correct in that the case was opened on the 13th of January and closed 2 weeks later on the 28th with only 1 comment. I agree with most of Sebastians reasoning and applaud his goals but I El C did the right thing by closing it the way he did. I do hope that Sebastian can condense his case and resubmit it at AE. I'm sure there are editors who are familiar with crafting such cases for presentation who will be happy to help. Atsme 💬 📧 13:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

• The post which opened the thread is 3,400 words long. That's wildly excessive and it's not reasonable to expect anybody to read it. Indeed it looks like almost nobody did, as there's hardly any discussion there, so there's no action which can be taken on the basis of it. The actions suggested (e.g. imposing topic bans, and forbidding people from using the word "jeez") would require some sort of active consensus. Posting walls of text and then insisting that people have to read them before they take any action relating to the thread is disruptive. Hut 8.5 13:21, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
• It was well formatted, but very lengthy with minimal participation. I think when asking for volunteer time one has to be reasonable as to length of text and amount of time requested. Try AE as the close suggested? Its style is more suitable to getting conclusive outcomes. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:31, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Note on Graham's hierarchy of disagreement (etc.)

While I meant no offense to SebastianHelm, if an inexperienced admin engages in action which I feel reflects said inexperience, I think I am entitled to (eventually) highlight that, notwithstanding Graham's hierarchy of disagreement or whatever. For example, this was an WP:ACDS matter. SebastianHelm could have taken singular AE action at any time, instead, they chose to post a 24-point "finding" and a 9-point "recommended consequences," which lingered for a week (because of course it did), until I closed the entire report. To quote myself (a favourite pastime of mine): The timesink that these AE-centred AN and ANI mega-threads (another example from earlier in the month) constitute is something I intend to curtail with great vigor. Not really interested to just let those reports bloat with insiders going on and on while outsiders are effectively shutout, until the thread gets archived with no action, anyway. El_C 15:32, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

To be fair, regarding the could have taken action part, Sebastian said they considered themselves involved. I am now recusing myself from this case, because (as I learned (from Dreamy Jazz) at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1052#Moving towards closure) once I expressed my opinion, I may be regarded as involved. Therefore I'm asking other admins to take over the responsibility for closing this case correctly. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:04, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well, on my talk page, they said: I'm taking exception to the patronizing way you are talking about “any uninvolved admin investigating”. Are you not aware that you're talking to just such a person. So, a bit of an inconsistency there. El_C 16:14, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Compromised account?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I don't know enough about the matter to be sure, and I might be wrong, but the latest edits from User:Hyacinth look suspicious to me (suddenly copying whole talk page comments into edit summaries? Also edits which are full with spelling mistakes beyond recognition?). Please do tell me if I'm wrong, rather be safe than sorry. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:37, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't look out of character to me. A quick look at their contributions show they regularly copy and paste what they've written into the edit summary field.-- P-K3 (talk) 15:54, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well, I'm still waiting for the edit count utility to confirm, but these latest edits also seem to be outside of their regular editing hours. Update: this is definitively a usually quiet period coming from this editor (although there are hundreds of edits there from over the years so I don't know, can't be sure). Their latest edits, however, many on the same page with the same summary, are suspect, though as I said I might be wrong. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:57, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Gosh, if there was somebody we could just ask. Hyacinth (talk) 16:10, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm all for asking and assuming good faith but if your account has/is in such a situation you wouldn't obviously be trustworthy. I rather have overreacted here than the opposite. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Updating content to Wikipedia page

Hello:

Please advise as to how we can get this page updated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altium

The content is very outdated and doesn't really focus on our company so much as company politics. The logo is also outdated, as well as the list of products, which currently includes multiple products Altium doesn't support anymore.

We have new content we can submit, but since we're Altium, we may not be able to suggest alternate content because we're considered to be a biased source, so please advise as to what we can do.

Thank you, Alexandra Kogan Senior Copywriter Altium — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.101.162.242 (talk) 16:44, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Howdy hello. For starters, you should read Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide. If you still have questions, please ask at the Teahouse. AdmiralEek (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Block appeal of Astral Leap

• Astral Leap (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Per their request, I am transferring the AE block appeal of Astral Leap to this page. I make no endorsement in doing so, and have no opinion about this matter. 331dot (talk) 16:47, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I was blocked in error, I reverted three times and not four as El_C wrongly says.

Regardless of El_C's error, I must state I was wrong to restore my comments even in the face of Volunteer Marek's personal attacks and removals that violate WP:TALKO. I was flabbergasted by the repeated removals, and acted in haste. Instead of reverting Volunteer Marek's removal, I should've reported him to WP:AN, WP:ANI, or WP:AE. However, El_C's recommendation that I avoid reporting content opponents at boards, and my exasperation at the situation where I was accused of being WP:EEML by Volunteer Marek while he simultaneously removed posts pointing at his EEML sanction resulted in rash decisions on my part.

El_C says, in his block rationale that I reverted four times. However, I reverted three. This is a complete timeline of this:

1. 02:37 I posted a new comment expressing surprise at how many EEML editors showed up after EEML was mentioned in the thread which was about canvassing on the Polish Wikipedia by an EEML editor. My post was on-topic, and contained information from the case and links existing on Wikipedia.
2. [23] 1st undo by Volunteer Marek, breaking WP:TALKO and removing content that is entirely on Wikipedia.
3. 03:29 1st undo by me.
4. 03:32 User:Levivich makes an unrelated comment, my undo from 03:29 stands.
5. 03:33 After fixing an edit-conflict with Levivich, I respond to a personal attack (from 02:46) by Volunteer Marek. When I make this response my post from 02:37 (undo from 03:29) is on the page, and I merely added a partial copy of what was on the page, responding to a second personal attack by Volunteer Marek. This is not a revert. El_C wrongly claims on my talk page this is a revert.
6. [24],[25] 2nd undo by Volunteer Marek.
7. [26],[27] 2nd undo by me
8. [28] 3rd undo by Volunteer Marek
9. [29] 3rd undo by me, in this revert I also fixed my comment, by removing his old user name, to Volunteer Marek's liking even though this was not required, in an attempt to de-escalate.

This is three reverts, not four. I was the subject of serious personal attacks. The issue under dispute, Volunteer Marek's old username, was resolved in my last edit, so the dispute was resolved when El_C made his block. I realize any edit warring is wrong, but blocking me for a week is excessive and is not preventative.--Astral Leap (talk) 16:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Again, Astral Leap's math doesn't immediately adds up for me. But even, say, I miscalculated: as noted on their talk page (here), I believe this WP:ACDS, WP:ARBEE-derived block is well within my discretion to impose. This newish account has been acting in a manner that is both suspect and disruptive, so I stand by my (logged AE) action. El_C 16:59, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

VM's rationale for removing the entry the first time was "undo an attempt to intimidate via doxxing". Now whether you agree that the edit was doxxing or not, there's obviously an issue here and the correct thing to do at this point is stop and discuss. Just because "it's on Wikipedia" doesn't mean it's carte blanche for "it's OK for me to keep doing this". But no, first we have doubling down on it (I would actually have blocked at this point) and then linking to it instead, like that's a better idea. Now in mitigation AL does say that they realise they were wrong to restore the comments, though I must say that their alternative suggestion of reporting VM to ANI or AE may not exactly have gone as they intended. Black Kite (talk) 20:38, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I actually agree with Astral Leap that I don't see a brightline 3RR violation, there were only 3 edits that can reasonably be counted as reverts. But El C is correct that it's within their discretion to block without a bright line violation, especially since this is a discretionary sanctions area. Astral Leap can still appeal, but Idon't see any reason to grant it.

Notably, I agree with Black Kite that regardless or what was posted where and even if it may not be technically outing and whatever the TPG say, if someone clearly wants you to stop posting their real name then you stop and reverse your existing post. You definitely don't fight to keep it in.

I actually don't find this quite so bad although it was still not a great solution. I have not looked very well at the thread, but if someone was sanctioned on en.wikipedia for similar behaviour to that currently under discussion before, it's generally reasonable to mention it. If that sanction was under a previous username which means the username will be seen by anyone checking out the link, that's unfortunate but can't be helped.

Where Astral Leap went wrong with their solution was that there was zero reason to link to the username itself. Link to the arbcom case (or whatever) and say it was under a previous user name is all that's needed. I guess Astral Link could have linked to the case without linking to the specific sections, but IMO that's starting to get to the point where we're splitting hairs and in addition making it hard for others to actually check the details of the case. That said, if Volunteer Marek cares that much, I wouldn't be opposed to some solution e.g. convincing arbcom to modify the page to create an anchor which won't require the older username, or creating a redirect.

Which gets into my final point, since Astral Leap had already had problems I do agree with Black Kite that the best option would have been to talk about it rather than trying to just fix it themselves. Maybe Volunteer Marek could have handled this better too but it should have been clear to Astral Leap that Volunteer Marek wasn't happy about the mention of their real name regardless.

Nil Einne (talk) 12:10, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Looking into this more, I'm not sure if there was that much to be gained by looking specifically into the details of Volunteer Marek's previous sanction so linking to the case without linking to the specific section that dealt with Volunteer Marek seems more reasonable than I initially thought. Of course this does illustrate that the best solution for Volunteer Marek to take was probably to simply redact the links to their previous username including the links to the case, and post a followup with something like "I have redacted the links to my previous username as I prefer it's no longer mentioned, editors can look at my edit history if you really need to know it. I will confirm that I was one of the editors sanctioned in the WP:EEML case." Nil Einne (talk) 12:22, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

In answer to Astral Leap, the way to know was to ask. As has already been said, once someone says 'doxing' you ask what's the concern if you don't understand. You don't effectively say "DGAF" by edit warring to keep the comment which causes concern. I assume you figured it out at some stage since you tried to adjust your comment albeit failing badly. Note that AFAICT, the concern of most editors is not that you posted the name once, but you kept reverting to keep it in even after there was concern. Frankly, while the fact it's a real name greatly increases the problems with your actions, you should be working with editors in most cases if they are unhappy with their previous user name being mentioned. I.E. even if you didn't understand and ignoring the fact you should have asked, there's still no excuse. For example, if someone used the name "The great overlord of the universe, a perfect editor" when they were 12 years old and now goes by the name "PorridgeBee" when they are 25 perhaps they would prefer their old username is not generally mentioned and you should try to respect that as much as reasonable when they ask in some fashion. Nil Einne (talk) 15:52, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

One final comment. There's a big world out there besides the US. I have no idea why anyone would use the US SSA baby name database to try and prove anything other than the popularity of give names in the US in recent times. Definitely, when I search the name database, "Smith" does not show up. However AFAIK, it remains the most popular or definitely one of the top, family names in the US. Siti doesn't show up, but I would readily identify it as a name and probably would 99.9% or more of Malaysians and I think quite a higher percentage of Indonesians and Singaporeans too. Seven made it to 998 in 2019 and Queen in 2018 and 2019. I would not readily identify either of these as the real name of a human, sorry to those who have that as their name. Again there's nothing wrong with this, but if someone expresses concerns you talk/ask. You don't ignore and try to force the preservation when you don't understand the concerns. Nil Einne (talk) 10:59, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

• Having experienced real world harassment, I take a dim view of revealing a previous username if it reveals the user's real world identity. No reason to do it, ever, no matter how justified someone feels. Seems petty and childish to me. I see no reason to unblock appellant and find their mea culpa's disingenuous. They claim a rash, ill-considered act. Digging up someone's prior, real world identifying user name and then revealing it sounds coldly calculated and intimidating. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:43, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

  Mostly I agree with you, but the old username is clearly listed at the Arb case page, which doesn't exactly require any digging to find. Instead I'd ask Arbcom or the clerks to update that case page to the current user name and remove any mentions of the old one. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:58, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

• Who cares about 3RR, anyway, here. It happened or it didn't, doesn't matter in the slightest to me, really, whether I identified that in error. To that: I just revoked AL's talk page access, for continuing to use this very appeal to poke at VM. Linking to a Social Security search engine and linking the old username via the wiki search function? What is going on here? If AL wishes to continue participating in this appeal, let that be filtered through WP:UTRS first. Anyway, I am hoping this appeal will be be resolved quickly, so as to avoid any further distress to VM. And not because I care about this appeal dragging on due to myself. I've had, like what, 4 AE appeals in the last month (all declined), one ANI appeal higher up in this very page, that looks like it's gonna get declined, too. This is all par for the course for me. But all this emphasis being placed on VM old username, here, at AN. That's not right. El_C 14:13, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
• Editing other people's comments is usually hard to explain (although in this case it would prima facie be borderline acceptable, and definitively acceptable given AL's further behaviour, which makes them even more suspect than before). Said behaviour leads me to think they haven't gotten the memo and would likely continue this kind of disruptive edit if they were unblocked immediately (whether we should expect that to change in a week's time is a different question): oppose appeal. (Non admin comment) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:10, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
• Unbelievable that Astral Leap would continue to double down. The block and subsequent removal of talk page access were both correct.-- P-K3 (talk) 17:57, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – February 2021

News and updates for administrators from the past month (January 2021).

Administrator changes

Hog Farm

Mattflaschen • Nandesuka • Savidan • Wangi

CheckUser changes

Berean Hunter • Xeno

Oversight changes

Someguy1221 • Xeno

Arbitration

• The standard discretionary sanctions authorized for American Politics were amended by motion to cover post-1992 politics of United States and closely related people, replacing the 1932 cutoff.

Miscellaneous

• Voting in the 2021 Steward elections will begin on 05 February 2021, 14:00 (UTC) and end on 26 February 2021, 13:59 (UTC). The confirmation process of current stewards is being held in parallel. You can automatically check your eligibility to vote.
• Wikipedia has now been around for 20 years, and recently saw its billionth edit!

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:10, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

White hot mess

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Can someone please straighten this out?

• We've got an article White pride with a talk page Talk:White pride
• And we've got an article White supremacy, with its talk page Talk:White supremacy
• Then we have a page White power (small "p"), which redirects to White supremacy...
• ...but it has a stand alone talk page Talk:White power, even though it's a redirect
• Finally, the page White Power (with a capital "P") redirects to White pride (not White supremacy, as White power does)
• ...and it, too, has a separate talk page Talk:White Power.

I would think that both White Power and White power should redirect to the same page, probably White pride, that both Talk:White Power and Talk:White power should be history merged into the talk page of whatever article their pages redirect to (I suggest Talk:White pride), and that White pride should have a prominent pointer to White supremacy, and vice versa. (If someone wants to suggest a merge of White pride and White supremacy, that's fine, although I think the subjects are different enough to have two separate articles.)

Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:19, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I took a look and it doesn't seem that bad. Talk:White power mostly discusses where White Power should redirect to, which is appropriate. The conclusion there was to redirect to White supremacy, which is a reasonable choice. If someone want to reopen the question, that talk page would seem the place to do so. White Power should redirect to the same target as lower-case power, an easy fix. Talk:White Power only has a WikiProjectBannerShell|1 template "This redirect is of interest to...", again harmless. Maybe the same template should be copied to the lower case talk page. None of this seems to warrant more than some normal tidying up edits, unless I am missing something here.--agr (talk) 22:37, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Maybe you're right, it just seemed so ... messy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:20, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

OK, I've made both of the "power" articles redirect to the same article (White supremacy, because it's the only redirect that was the result of a consensus discussion), redirected the "power" talk page with no content except a list of WikiProject to that article's talk page, and tagged the White supremacy, White pride and White nationalism articles with "see also" templates pointing to each other. I think that clears up the problem. ArnoldReinhold, thanks for talking me down. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:52, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, you're welcome and thanks for doing the cleanup.--agr (talk) 03:05, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

XIIIfromTokyo

• XIIIfromTOKYO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Delfield (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

The user XIIIfromTOKYO has been "cautioned against comments addressing the motive or character of other conversants". It was added by bd2412 that Any further comments of this type on your part may lead to an immediate block. Any further comments of this type on your part may lead to an immediate block..

Furthermore, this user was topic-banned "due to (his) lack of facility with the English language and with the policies of English Wikipedia" (which he commented once again in a talk page as constituting a "xenophobic behaviour").

Because I asked an admin to "clean up" a talk page of personal attacks, he answered: "My comments are not dirty things that need to be, as you said, "cleaned", thank you. As you might know, stereotypes about French people include having a poor hygiene, so that choice of words is a bit unfortunate."

Unresolved ANI from 2 weeks ago mostly involving XIIIfromTOKYO, Drmies, The Hand That Feeds You: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1056#XIIIfromTokyo

--Delfield (talk) 21:31, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Ok, make it quick this time :

• A 40 months old edit about a past beheaviour[30], what do you want to prove with that ? Yes, I know than I'm not perfect, but Wikipedia:Don't remind others of past misdeeds might apply after all this time. Yes, I claimed that a contributor was abusing sockpuppets, and yes, I'have been cautionned against that. And yes, it turned out that I was absolutly right, and that that contributor was indeed abusing sockpuppets.

A contributor can't remove or alter an other contributor's comment. Period. It's was not the first time that you have tried to rewrite one of my message in order to alter its original meaning, and I have already clearly said that it was not acceptable[31]. So you knowingly behave in a way that I have asked you to refrain from.

It's the third ANI that Delfield has started against me during the pasts months[32][33]. Mostly off-topic accusations, always starting with that once a bad guy always a bad guy mantra over and over again. And everytime I waste more time on ANI than on the article. That's how Brandolini's law works, and Wikipedia:POV railroad also apply there.

I see that Delfield only has 200 edits so far (3 ANI started with only 200 edits, that's actually amazing), so it might be time to draw a line between harassment strategies, and genuine grievances. And I understand that, as a still young contributor with edits on controversial articles as a sole experience, it might be hard for Delfield to make that difference. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 22:49, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

A contributor can't remove or alter an other contributor's comment. Period. Incorrect. Please see WP:TPO for specific instances in which the comments of others can be edited or deleted. I'm not saying that any of those apply, just correcting your blanket generalization. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:23, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

AfD backlogged again

There's a backlog of AfDs again, some have been around for two weeks without a close. Quite a few seem to be cricket related. If you're not an admin but fancy helping out, and have seen this and don't mind getting 25 random questions, drop one of these people a line. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 23:12, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Becoming a mentor

Hello, how do I become a mentor to "adopt" other users? 54nd60x (talk) 14:47, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

WP:AAU. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:48, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

You don't. Not yet. You're still too new for that. Just having to ask that shows you lack the experience to be a mentor at this time. El_C 14:52, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

[[34]] - just the first 12 seconds... Springee (talk) 14:54, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

It seems they went through with it anyway. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:59, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Haha! You know the key to my heart, Springee! El_C 15:01, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Worst baseball team name ever

Perhaps some of you will find this amusing. If we can only convince the as-yet-unnamed Danville Appalachian League team to call themselves the Administrators, future headlines could read "Administrators Wallop Sock Puppets," "Sock Puppets Sneak Past Administrators," and the like. Deor (talk) 20:00, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Oh, that's cool. -nominates for deletion- --WaltCip-(talk) 20:58, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Butch Cassidy

2603:8080:B205:EA12:5972:DDF:4EE3:4BC6 was reverted. Need block IP address and reverting Butch Cassidy. RoseCloud26 (talk) 01:52, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

• RoseCloud26, are you using Twinkle/rollback? If so, that should be yanked from you, and I am going to place a warning on your talk page for disruptive editing (an unexplained revert of a positive edit) and a lack of WP:AGF (collegiality), in reporting this immediately without even discussing the matter with the editor. To the IP from Texas: thank you for your copy edits; they improved the article. Drmies (talk) 02:03, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Hello, RoseCloud26. I have to agree with Drmies here. The IP editor improved the article and you made it worse. Then, I took a look at your user page which now reads "Hello! I'm user but not forget it! Be safely and stay healthy home." That is word salad that makes absolutely no sense, except in the script of a Borat movie. Perhaps you should contribute instead in your native language's version of Wikipedia. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:41, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
    • Cullen328, Although I do have to point out that That is word salad that makes absolutely no sense doesn't work either; it should be That is a word salad that makes absolutely no sense or That word salad makes absolutely no sense ;) Asartea ^{Talk | Contribs} 08:45, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
      • No, I think that "word salad" can be used in an uncountable way. Drmies (talk) 13:16, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
• Cullen328, they did it again. Drmies (talk) 13:18, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
• Aha. I cite from the SPI, "the same (bad) attempts at antivandalism". Yes, these were bad. Drmies (talk) 13:21, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Edit warring noticeboard backlogged

WP:EWN seems fairly undermanned. Of the 20 reports there, only 5 have been answered. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:31, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Edit History Strikeout

Hi. Is there anychance an admin can go through the edit history for articles covering the 1st to 6th season of America's Got Talent, from around 23-24 January of this year, and possibly strikeout the edits that were made by sockpuppets from Singapore to these articles, after resuming their disruption once again with these? GUtt01 (talk) 10:35, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

That's a lot of content, and skimming through Season 1 I don't necessarily see anything that would require revdel. To save everyone some time digging, could you please give more specifics, in the form of diffs and/or dates+time? Primefac (talk) 12:08, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Actually, maybe it might be easier to ask for any edits done by the sockpuppets of the user Agt2008fan, listed in this Sockpuppet Investigation Archive, to be struck out, if possible. Reason would be to ensure no editor is misled to thinking that their edits were to establish "correct" information, rather than false, misleading information. GUtt01 (talk) 12:17, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Let me clarify - unless it meets one of the RD criteria (likely WP:RD2 or WP:RD3, from your concern) then it won't be hidden (hence why I asked for specific diffs). Wikipedia is hit with false and/or variants-of-incorrect information every second, and we don't hide them just because we want to appear perfect. Vandalism happened, we reverted, next page. Primefac (talk) 12:52, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive editor edits user pages

ShewanKara has been told by at least two editors (@Vif12vf: and I)[35][36] to not use random unreliable references when removing well-referenced information as has been the case on various pages. They were even blocked from editing Vif12vf's talkpage for disruption and went on to edit my user page.[37] --Semsûrî (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. El_C 13:23, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Immediate protection

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Please protect Ali Ansarian article. The person has just passed away.--BallXmado (talk) 14:19, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Review of revision deletion requested

As I guess is probably known here, I'm the newest administrator here (and I think the newest account with the admin bit). So I'm not near as experienced as most here. I recently performed revision deletions on Luke Combs here and here per the BLP arm of WP:RD2. Since this is my first time applying revision deletion, I would like to make sure that I'm applying policy right before using revdel again in the future. Hog Farm _Talk 15:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Welcome and congratulations. It looks perfectly good to me. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 15:12, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Hurray for admin surplus, for once, instead of admin deficit! Anyway, my advise would be to generally err on the side of deletion — it can always be easily undone. El_C 16:01, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Looks good for me.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:04, 3 February 2021 (UTC)