Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Welcome — ask about reliability of sources in context!

Before posting, check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions. Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports. Additional notes: RFCs for deprecation, blacklisting, or other classification should not be opened unless the source is widely used and has been repeatedly discussed. Consensus is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments. While the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not policy. This page is not a forum for general discussions unrelated to the reliability of sources. Start a new discussion

Liliputing.com blog as a reliable source?

It is a blog. Although it lists 4 contributors in addition to "editor" Brad Linder in the about page, in reality Brad Linder is essentially the only author in 2019 (1 exception), and there have been only 2 authors since February 2016.

I've been recently tempted to use it as a source, a couple times, to change a primary source to a secondary source, like magic; however, this seems wrong.

It was suggested to bring it up for discussion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:/e/_(operating_system)&diff=913365830&oldid=913365695

I'd appreciate other views. Below are more details. Thanks.

It has been used as a source for many articles in Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=liliputing&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go&ns0=1

95 results

Sometimes it is called "blog" in Wikipedia References, sometimes not.

I believe it mostly re-words and repeats press releases, and blog posts by companies. An example, recently:

https://liliputing.com/2019/09/first-batch-of-purism-librem-5-linux-smartphones-ships-in-late-september.html#comments

versus

https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-shipping-announcement/

In the liliputing blog post above, comments seem to confirm this:

"Some Guy: ...Also, this article seems to have been posted before anything about this is on purism’s website."

"Brad Linder: I guess someone forgot to tell them that the embargo lifted at 11:00AM 🙂"

"Daily Deals" are almost indistinguishable from "articles." https://liliputing.com/category/deals

The about page calls Brad Linder editor; however, he is also the primary author, and the ONLY author for the last 8 months, with one exception by Lee Mathews on 8/26/2019.

It says, "Liliputing has been mentioned on hundreds of news, and technology web sites," and gives 11 examples. However, 1 - Computer World is a broken link, most are several years old, and 1 - Techmeme, "works by scraping news websites and blogs,..."

https://liliputing.com/about

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?sort=relevance&search=Brad+Linder+liliputing&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current=%7B%7D&ns0=1

57 results

Lee Mathews https://liliputing.com/author/lee Last article 08/26/2019, but this is the first since 12/26/2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?sort=relevance&search=Lee+Mathews+liliputing&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current=%7B%7D&ns0=1

1 result

Lory Gil https://liliputing.com/author/lory Last article 02/05/2016

K. T. Bradford https://liliputing.com/author/ktbradford Last article 08/20/2014

James Diaz https://liliputing.com/author/cybergusa Last article 09/16/2011

The site warns: "Disclosure: Some links on this page are monetized by Skimlinks and Amazon's and eBay's affiliate programs."

It is heavily loaded with affiliate javascript from MANY different sources, as seen with noscript, etc.

-- Yae4 (talk) 18:31, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• Ugh. That site is basically a collection of advertisements. Guy (help!) 21:52, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
• Generally unreliable. Liliputing a group blog. Its about page lists 5 staff members and occasional mentions in more reliable sources, which makes it a bit better than other group blogs of this size. However, the blog posts on this site tend to be short and promotionally toned, nowhere near the editorial quality of established blogs like Engadget (RSP entry). I don't think Liliputing is a good source for technology topics, and I definitely wouldn't count its articles toward a subject's notability. — Newslinger talk 02:58, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Example of editing by readers:

Victor C: Brad, just letting you know, the WIN is mono. They had to remove the left speaker for the fan...

Brad Linder: Whoops! Fixing that now.

https://liliputing.com/2016/10/gpd-win-handheld-gaming-pc-quick-review.html , Reference 14 here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPD_Win -- Yae4 (talk) 16:55, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

While it's SPAMmy, It can certainly be used in a limited capacity. For instance on the Kodi (software) article, https://liliputing.com/2013/05/xbmc-running-in-linux-on-a-tv-box-with-an-amlogic-am8726-mx-chip-video.html is used to support that the software supports the AMLogic VPU chip. This is not an unreasonable use. Good to see that they make corrections to articles, which is good editorial oversight. It should not be used for anything other that plain, factual coverage. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:57, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Making corrections after initially publishing inaccurate information, after readers point out the mistakes, is not "editorial oversight." Editorial oversight is having an editor, independent of the author, who catches mistakes before publishing. At this blog, the author is the editor, or vice versa. -- Yae4 (talk) 15:17, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Blogs do not generally update their posts. If there is the ability and will to recognize errors and omissions, that implies that there is some editorial oversight. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:22, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from. I wanted to use infosec-handbook.eu (blog) as a source too, but couldn't because it doesn't meet the criteria. BTW, it also updates based on reader feedback (and has more active authors). If we use liliputing for that video, then we could use any blog with a fancy appearance and tons of advertisements as a way of including youtube videos. -- Yae4 (talk) 15:32, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

What you were restricted in using that other website's content for is not up for discussion here.

We're not using the video itself, in the case I quoted, it's a specific discussion that is being used to support one fact. It is not generally reliable, as is the case with most other blogs. However, even blogs may be used under some circumstances. This is not a binary use vs. do not use situation, it's a large scale and judgment must be used to determine whether an entry can be used to support a fact.

Also, as stated above, it cannot be used to help determine if a topic meets WP:GNG. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

The point was other blogs also do make corrections based on reader feeback, contrary to your claim.

Go down the list; Liliputing breaks most criteria: NO editorial oversight (aside from readers), self-published, blog, examples of making mistakes, sponsored content or primary purpose of showing you ads and getting you to click affiliate links. As I understand the process, if two of these discussions conclude it's a non-reliable source, then it goes on the "binary" list as such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Questionable_and_self-published_sources

If that "one fact" is really worthy of being included, you should be able to find a reliable source for it. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:21, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

RfC: Liliputing

Is Liliputing (liliputing.com) a reliable source for technology-related topics, or should it be considered a self-published group blog? — Newslinger talk 20:35, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Survey (Liliputing)

• Self-published source. I'll repeat what I originally wrote on 10 September: Liliputing a group blog. Its about page lists 5 staff members and occasional mentions in more reliable sources, which makes it a bit better than other group blogs of this size. However, the blog posts on this site tend to be short and promotionally toned, nowhere near the editorial quality of established blogs like Engadget (RSP entry). I don't think Liliputing is a good source for technology topics, and I definitely wouldn't count its articles toward a subject's notability. — Newslinger talk 20:35, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Not reliable. Advert-infested clickbait of no real merit and no evident quality assurance, much better sources exist. Guy (help!) 21:13, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Generally Unreliable Anything but a factual statement is not reliable. Cannot be used for GNG or other reliability criteria. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:54, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Not reliable. Should not be used as a source. -- Yae4 (talk) 02:02, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
• Not reliable. (bot brought me here) Not anywhere close to the level of Wired, ZDNet, or even krebsonsecurity(Brian Krebs).---Avatar317^(talk) 05:32, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
• Not reliable. . For Christmas' sake, I can blog that I am God, if anyone built a church for me, I'd instantly be an atheist. No verifiable facts, no studies, no external review, just a claim. Secondary sources are used for a reason, hopefully review and verification. I suggest either filing this in the circular file, file 86 or file 13, aka the bit bucket.Wzrd1 (talk) 04:42, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion (Liliputing)

• I've created a new subsection for the RfC to meet the "brief and neutral" requirement for RfC statements. Yae4 originally created the RfC in Special:Diff/919418976, but the RfC statement was too long to be transcluded into the RfC category lists. Discussion on Liliputing originally started at Talk:/e/ (operating system), then sprawled to other pages including Talk:Kodi (software). According to Yae4, Liliputing was used in 95 articles on 9 September, but this count has since declined to 12 articles   after removals. Pinging previous commenters JzG and Walter Görlitz as a courtesy. — Newslinger talk 20:35, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computing, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computing/Computer hardware task force, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Software, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Software/Free and open-source software task force, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Reliability — Newslinger talk 20:44, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

The Epoch Times, once again

The Epoch Times is currently listed as a questionable source on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources and usually described as a "falun-gong mouthpiece" in previous discussions. They have recently come under scrutiny for being a Trumpian partisan outlet as well, to the point where Facebook banned them from further advertising on their platform. At the moment they still have those same video ads running on YouTube, with a guy snapping his fingers to changing headlines, using alt-right bingo buzzwords like "mainstream media", "hidden agendas", or "Russia hoax" that could've just as well come from a Trump campaign spokesperson. I think it is time to reclassify this website in the same category as the The Daily Caller and the National Enquirer. --bender235 (talk) 23:58, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

• The Epoch Times (RSP entry) is currently classified under "No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply", but we haven't had any noticeboard discussions since the August NBC News report "Trump, QAnon and an impending judgment day: Behind the Facebook-fueled rise of The Epoch Times". Deprecating The Epoch Times would require consensus in a formal request for comment, which this discussion could easily be converted into. — Newslinger talk 02:47, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Bias does not make it not RS as such, usable with attribution.Slatersteven (talk) 08:16, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Exactly. This is a typical "biased source" and as such can be used per policy with appropriate attribution. My very best wishes (talk) 15:18, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

The Epoch Times isn't a matter of bias. It's a matter that it deliberately and calculatedly publishes misinformation. It should be deprecated. Simonm223 (talk) 15:32, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

• Bias doesn't make a source unusable, but intentionally misleading its readers does. The Facebook ban was for that sort of misinformation, which I feel is a decent reason to consider them unreliable - Facebook doesn't ban ads from news sources lightly (after all, doing so costs them money.) NBC News' coverage describes them as spreading conspiracy theories about Trump's political enemies, and the New York Times says the same thing, which would at the very least make them a WP:FRINGE source, not one we can really use for very much. --Aquillion (talk) 17:09, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
• Yeah this isn't just bias. In addition to more or less openly campaigning for Trump, they've got credulous reporting on Qanon and Pizzagate, as well as vaccine scaremongering, and viral cancer quackery. Reporting from NBC News, Buzzfeed make it pretty clear that they're pushing false or misleading viral content related to contemporary politics. This is exactly the sort of content that has no place on Wikipedia. Nblund ^talk 17:26, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

That does not look good at all... My very best wishes (talk) 18:34, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

• Blacklist ASAP. How has this propaganda machine not been blacklisted yet? It's really remarkable—it couldn't be clearer that under no circumstance is The Epoch Times a reliable source, IMO. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:40, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
• Support RFC I'm not sure if this came up the previous discussion, but the Washington Post also reported on some issues with Wikipedia's use of the Epoch Times at the entry for Hunter Biden. This search of main space links turns up a number of cases where they're cited for pseudo-science (this story at Past life regression, and heavy use of this crazy story at This Man), and it is still cited on a number of BLPs and on stories related to Trump-Russia (Joseph Misfud, Paul Manafort). It's even cited at the entry for QAnon. The site is ubiquitous on social media, and it looks just presentable enough that users might sometimes mistake it for a reliable source. Based on this, I think its worth establishing a general consensus. Nblund ^talk 19:01, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

RfC: The Epoch Times

Which of the following best describes the reliability of The Epoch Times (RSP entry)?

• Option 1: Generally reliable for news
• Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
• Option 3: Generally unreliable for news
• Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail (RSP entry)

— Newslinger talk 19:13, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Context matters: Please indicate if you have different opinions on different aspects of The Epoch Times's news coverage, such as edition (the English edition at theepochtimes.com   and the Chinese edition at epochtimes.com  ), topic (e.g. Chinese politics, American politics, international politics, and Falun Gong-related topics), and year of publication. The closer is advised to evaluate whether there are separate consensuses for different aspects of the publication. — Newslinger talk 19:13, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Survey (The Epoch Times)

• Deprecate ASAP. Under no circumstance should this Falun Gong propaganda machine be considered a reliable source. The links provided by other users above make the source's utter unreliability crystal clear. For those new to the topic, I recommend this recent write up (The New Republic), think Russia Today—as the New Republic article puts it: "The Times has built a global propaganda machine, similar to Russia’s Sputnik or RT, that pushes a mix of alternative facts and conspiracy theories that has won it far-right acolytes around the world." :bloodofox: (talk) 19:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
• 2 or 3 This isn't a good source, but judging by its complete usage, I don't see a reason for general prohibition on its use. The domains theepochtimes.com (English version) and epochtimes.com (Chinese version - is this RfC about both?) are used 1,348 times in Wikipedia. Most that I glimpsed through were rather uncontroversial, especially from the Chinese domain. The discussion above was rather insincere in my view. The Facebook advert ban was due to circumventing Facebook's political advertisement rules, not its news coverage. A QAnon story is being cited in support of deprecating it, but all I see in that story is reporting what the QAnon is, not advocating for it. Yeah, they also have more trashy stuff like the vaccine story as a "VIEWPOINTS" article, but so do many other lower-end sources like The Huffington Post. As for being pro-Trump: WP:PARTISAN applies and it should not be used for controversial statements. It's not feasible to deprecate all lower-end sources from the right-wing of the political spectrum. --Pudeo (talk) 20:06, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

According to the Epoch Times, they are unaware of why they were blocked from Facebook ([1]). Whether that's true or not is unclear, as the source is itself not unreliable, but what is clear is that the Epoch Times is a propaganda outlet for Falun Gong—it's about reliable and journalistic as Russia Today. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:56, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

The articles states If the Q posts are real, they may indicate that the Trump administration has established an alternate channel to speak to supporters, bypassing news outlets and social media altogether for something more direct. They're clearly pushing this as a plausible idea. Also: they were banned by Facebook because they created sockpuppet domains so that they could continue to run conspiracy themed ads that failed to meet Facebook's absurdly lax standards. This isn't just a low quality source. Nblund ^talk 16:14, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

• Deprecate. "Context matters" is not an appropriate approach for a source that just makes stuff up while claiming not to - David Gerard (talk) 22:41, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 2. I'd say close to RT or Global Times for Chinese politics and controversial statements, close to CS Monitor or Deseret News for general topics. Epoch Times is a publication associated with a new religious movement suppressed by China. It's obviously biased against China and its ruling party (thus WP:PARTISAN applies), but it runs both ways: Global Times is unlikely to be much better of a source for Epoch Times than vice versa. feminist (talk) 02:48, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate. The Epoch Times peddles unconfirmed rumours, conspiracy theories such as QAnon, and antivax propaganda, causing itself to be banned by Facebook. See NBC expose, Washington Post article, and NYT article. According to The New Republic, its European sites are even worse, and have become the mouthpiece of the far right fringe. -Zanhe (talk) 05:46, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate As per sources on the Epoch Times page they "peddle conspiracy theories about the 'Deep State,' and criticize 'fake news' media" and "its network of news sites and YouTube channels has made it a powerful conduit for the internet’s fringier conspiracy theories, including anti-vaccination propaganda and QAnon, to reach the mainstream." AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 05:53, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• 2 As I said bias is not a criteria for exclusion. We can use it if we attribute it.Slatersteven (talk) 08:25, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate - per Zanhe above and MarioGom below. starship.paint (talk) 08:28, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• 4 (Deprecate) or 3 Some news pieces are just fine, but usually a more realiable source exists for the same events. On the other hand, they insist on pushing for WP:FRINGE theories, they use news pieces as a hook for conspiracies (see my comment in the discussion) and you cannot just single them out by excluding opinion pieces. This undermines the reliability of The Epoch Times as a whole. Their magazines include a lot of WP:FRINGE commentary of notable wingnuts and charlatans, which may be useful for attributed quotes of these subjects' views when they are WP:DUE. --MarioGom (talk) 08:34, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate - per Zanhe--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 10:13, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• Generally unreliable, would need a very strong reason to include this as a source for anything. Guy (help!) 12:41, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate - The Epoch Times was founded as a propaganda outlet for a new religious movement and has, over time, gotten less reliable rather than more. While it was previously a relatively trashy outlet that was generally untrustworthy for anything controversial but might serve for routine, non-controversial information, it has transformed into a platform for pseudoscience, conspiracism and misinformation. The veneer of respectability and the ubiquity of Epoch Times newspapers in major urban centers makes it a substantial risk as a source of RS-looking misinformation on Wikipedia. We need to eliminate this source once and for all. Simonm223 (talk) 13:33, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate both versions. A source that merely has a perspective (even a strong perspective) is usable, but a biased source that also spreads conspiracy theories or fringe theories in the service of their bias is not; it's clear that this source lacks the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy that WP:RS requires. Since both versions are under the same management and seem intended to serve the same purpose, neither seems like a usable source. --Aquillion (talk) 15:09, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate This does not seem reliable, especially given its history of consipracy theories and support of what elsewhere could be considered Fake news. --- FULBERT (talk) 02:07, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate seems appropriate here because they publish conspiracy theories and hoaxes, and they've willfully mislead readers and advertisers. From what I can tell, the overwhelming majority of the content is unattributed aggregations of other news stories. The writers for the site are doing dozens of stories per day. Jack Phillips wrote 15 on October 8, none of those stories appear to involve any original reporting, and there are plenty of other sources for all of them. The content that is "original" to the site is garbage. They've repeatedly pushed QAnon, and now "Spygate", and their "wellness" reporting is rife with quackery. Stories like this one appear to be unmarked advertising, and they've given over a decade of breathlessly positive coverage of the Shen Yun performing arts company. None of that coverage discloses that the performing group is a project of the Falun Gong. Obviously there are worse sources out there, but this one seems to pose a high risk of causing a problem here because they have the look of a credible website Nblund ^talk 16:57, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate. No reason for an encyclopedia to use such a low-quality publication. Neutrality^talk 18:20, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 2- per feminist and Slatersteven. --ColumbiaXY (talk) 19:00, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 3 (first choice) or "2" (second choice). Looks similar to Fox news or RT (Russia). My very best wishes (talk) 20:25, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate/Option 4 Too unreliable. If they have reliable articles, it will be covered by other news outlets too. The Banner talk 21:21, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 3 I dislike the trend towards deprecating sources willy-nilly. I think it should be reserved for extreme cases. I looked at some of the examples of allegedly "fake" reporting listed here, and my impression was that the Epoch Times was writing a story about something that didn't need a story written about it, but I didn't see anything that was obviously false. That said, I couldn't find a corrections page on their site, so I'd go with option 3. Adoring nanny (talk) 00:07, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
• 1, 2, or 3 - depends on the context I think, and not a broad category. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:46, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 4 or possibly 3, per Nblund. If a person with a Wikipedia article wrote an opinion piece that appeared on Epoch Times, I'd first ask myself why they couldn't get it published elsewhere, and potentially use it with direct attribution, but never for regular news reporting. I don't think they'd tamper with other people's opinion pieces but that's a low bar. Anything Epoch Times can provide reliable coverage for should have reliable coverage elsewhere.-Ich (talk) 21:54, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 4 per Zanhe and others above. Bobbychan193 (talk) 06:20, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 4 - Epoch Times is an unreliable source, publishing alarmist "news" stories that are often fringe theories or conspiracy theories. Definitely not up to the standards of Wikipedia for a reliable source. Netherzone (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate - Epoch Times has always been unreliable for Chinese political news, but it seems to have been moving toward fringe conspiracy theories on a host of other issues, as others have highlighted. I don't think it meets our standards for general usage.--Danaman5 (talk) 00:49, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 4 / Deprecate: There's been weak to no support in this discussion for ET's journalistic integrity. Per :bloodofox: and Nblund: while the patently partisan bias alone isn't enough to justify its deprecation, there's been much ado about how far their writers will alter their stories to sway readers towards their own views. →‎ GS →‎ ☎ → 10:12, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 2 or 3: They cover conspiracy theories as conspiracy theories. They're not trying to say any of that nonsense is true, just that it's a notable part of the discourse. And the "mouthpiece" argument makes no sense given that 99% of their article are not about that. Are newspapers started by Christians automatically mouthpieces for Christianity? Connor Behan (talk) 17:21, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 3 - Generally unreliable but not completely useless as a source in all contexts. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 22:55, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion (The Epoch Times)

• I was initially reluctant to start this RfC, but many editors in the above discussion proposed measures that should undergo wider community review. With 5 previous noticeboard discussions, The Epoch Times is a controversial source that deserves a thorough examination. Pinging previous commenters Bender235, Slatersteven, My very best wishes, Simonm223, Aquillion, Nblund, and Bloodofox as a courtesy. — Newslinger talk 19:13, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
  • @Newslinger: please clarify whether this would deprecate the Chinese edition (epochtimes.com - 519 uses) in addition to the English version (theepochtimes.com - 829 uses)? --Pudeo (talk) 20:09, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
    • ​That's a good question. The options are just suggestions and it's up to individual editors to specify which editions of The Epoch Times their classifications apply to. If there are two separate consensuses for the English edition and the Chinese edition, we would create a split entry on the perennial sources list, e.g. RT (general topics) and RT (controversial topics, international politics), and the editions would be treated differently. An opinion without a qualifier would apply to all aspects of The Epoch Times (including edition, topic, and time period) as a whole. I'll clarify this below the RfC statement. — Newslinger talk 20:15, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Asian Americans, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion/Falun Gong work group, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion/New religious movements work group, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Reliability — Newslinger talk 04:55, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

• The Epoch Times pushes for all kinds of WP:FRINGE theories, not just QAnon and antivax as others mentioned. They have a lot of articles promoting the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory (The Communist Sexual Agenda, The Infiltration of Marxism Into Higher Education (Part 1 of 2)). Note that this is not confined to opinion sections, they also use news pieces as coatrack for it. Let's take Hundreds of Young Transgender People Asking for Help to Return to Original Sex: Report. If we wanted to use that story, we could just use the original from Sky News ([2]), since The Epoch Times just uses the Sky News report as a hook to promote theories about communists promoting homosexuality to undermine the family and so on. --MarioGom (talk) 07:03, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• Note also the push for pseudoscientific theories on medicine such as functional medicine, promotion of bogus claims on cancer treatment by Cancer Treatment Centers of America#Controversy, etc. It seems related items have been used as a source in Wikipedia: Woman Has Spiritual Near-Death Experience, Cancer Cured as Result? --MarioGom (talk) 08:54, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine MarioGom (talk) 08:54, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

• Why are we even having this discussion? Did someone blank Wikipedia:RSCONTEXT without telling me? Does the FAQ at WT:V which has said "The reliability of a source is entirely dependent on the context of the situation, and the statement it is being used to support" for years, suddenly disappear? This source, like every other source, can only be judged to be reliable in context. It's not "reliable" or "not reliable". As a general rule, this source is going to be "reliable for certain narrowly written and carefully contextualized statements". It may be best to use it with WP:INTEXT attribution. It may not be the best possible source for general information. But reliability is not a yes-or-no situation. The whole concept behind this RFC (also: an RFC on a high-traffic noticeboard? What's going on with that?) is flawed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:36, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
  • We're having this conversation because the argument has been made that this outlet has equivalent reliability to sources like The Daily Mail and The National Enquirer while still being used as a source in multiple articles. As it is actively anti-reliable as a source, site-wide action is necessary. Simonm223 (talk) 15:42, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
    • Was there a series of real dispute that editors had difficulty resolving? I'm not seeing evidence of that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
  • WhatamIdoing: Sources can be used in certain contexts even if they are WP:DEPRECATED. You may have to argue with someone who thinks that deprecated means completely blacklisted, but it should be ok otherwise if it is justified. Do you see any problem with this specific RfC? Or you are against the source deprecation process itself, or maybe the perennial sources list? --MarioGom (talk) 19:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
    • I'm against anything that indicates to other editors that the rest of us think don't think they can figure out how to write a decent article without the rest of us telling them to follow some more rules first. People with a classical education might be thinking about the Woes of the Pharisees here, and I admit that it's not far from my mind.
      MarioGom, I see your account is just two and a half years old, so you probably don't remember when Wikipedia:Ignore all rules was taken seriously as a policy, when the article was more important than the rules, and when "You may have to argue with someone" to be permitted to do what was right by an article meant that a policy or process was fundamentally broken. If RS/P results in editors having to argue with mindless rule-followers about whether it's okay to improve an article, and if it's putting the emphasis on what's "allowed" instead of what's best for the article, then I'll be against it. If it provides practical help to editors writing articles, then I'll be all for it. Perhaps you can tell me which category you think it's most likely to fall into. So far, all I see is that the list grows endlessly, and it is largely populated by people who aren't creating much content, and largely used by people who aren't genuinely trying to figure out whether a source is desirable in a particular article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:52, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
      • The way I look at it (certainly others may feel differently) is that, given the (absolutely appropriate) emphasis on Reliable Sourcing, the RS/P is an incredibly useful tool, especially for new editors who may not have a firm grasp on what constitutes a reliable source or know how to dig through the RSN archives. I know it certainly was for me. I also believe that its usefulness is directly connected to its accuracy, and these discussions help to improve that accuracy by giving an accurate measure of a source's basic credibility. Even RSCONTEXT says "In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication." Discussions like this help us assign a rough reliability, according to this exact metric, to sources. Yes, context is still important, but that doesn't mean that the New York Times and the National Enquirer should be treated the same, as if they each require the same amount of scrutiny to determine whether a given article in either is acceptable to cite for an article here. AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 21:15, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
        • AmbivalentUnequivocality, could you explain that bit about RSCONTEXT better? I'm not sure how it relates. That sentence, in plain English, means "The New York Times, which has more than four thousand employees, is usually more reliable than little tiny newspapers like The Mulberry Advance, whose sole employee has to do everything from selling subscriptions to writing articles to sweeping the floor". I don't see how any discussion on Wikipedia could realistically "help to improve that accuracy", because "according to this exact metric", the only way for a source to become more reliable is to hire more journalists. The number of Wikipedians involved in these RFCs is irrelevant "according to this exact metric". "This exact metric" is about what they do, not about what we do. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:37, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
          • WhatamIdoing Certainly. My reading on that sentence is slightly different than yours. I don't see it as being the same as "More employees = more reliable" because not all publications utilize their employees the same way. It is about how many people are actually engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing. More employees does not necessarily mean that they have more people doing those things. A large paper could employ thousands of people and still not commit any sizable number of them to fact checking, and a small paper could have relatively few employees but still conduct robust and thorough fact checking on what material they publish. It is what they do with their employees, and how well they do it, that matters. Yes, this metric is about what they do, but our part in it is elucidating what it is that they are doing. Our part is figuring out how robust their reputation for fact checking is, how strong their editorial oversight is, how readily they retract and correct errors. Publications that knowingly publish false claims, or unknowingly publish easily disprovable ones, clearly show a lack of such robustness. We can improve the RS/P by accurately assessing how well a given publication commonly meets these criteria. There is value in having a list that accurately represents the general quality of various sources according to the established criteria of what constitutes reliability, but to do that we must determine how well a given source meets those criteria. I believe that is something we can do, and I believe that discussions like this aid in achieving that goal. Treating every source as though they are all equally likely to produce reliable reporting seems shortsighted to me. Yes, reliability is about what they do. Our discussions do not make a publication reliable or unreliable. But our discussions do help accurately assess whether they are doing the things that are considered indicative of general reliability (Robust fact checking, editorial oversight, etc.), or whether they are engaged in behavior that is indicative of pervasive unreliability (Intentionally publishing false or misleading claims, pushing fringe conspiracy theories, etc.) AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 07:20, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
      • WhatamIdoing: So if I understand correctly, you are against the deprecation of sources itself or this kind of RfC, but you have no particular concern about this specific RfC. I can understand that. It has certainly been problematic for me in the past. For example, when spotting an inaccurate story published at a sourced marked as generally reliable on perennial sources. But that's beyond the scope here, I guess. --MarioGom (talk) 21:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
        • That's the issue as I see it, and not beyond consideration here, that commentary must be distinguished from credible news, even in articles that are reporting some news. A neutral point of view doesn't sell many books or newspapers. Jzsj (talk) 07:13, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
          • Frankly I think the use of newsmedia is generally inappropriate for an encyclopedia and leads to many of our woes surrounding WP:RECENTISM, WP:10YT and WP:DUE across the site. When a newsmedia source compounds this problematic character by straight-up fabricating news to push a POV, well, if I think we shouldn't be leaning so hard on the NYT you can imagine what I think about such tabloids. And the Epoch Times, which was founded with the intent of being used as a propaganda outlet is one of the worst of a bad bunch. I'm sure an WP:IAR case might exist where deprecation might prove a challenge, but honestly I don't see it. And avoiding a 99% improvement to avoid a 1% chance of future impediments seems like weak cost-benefit analysis. Simonm223 (talk) 12:06, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
          • ^agreed. The consensus on deprecation can always change, but I have spent some time browsing the site, and I really haven't found a single story that appears reliable and not covered by a more reputable source. The Washington Post reports that the majority of the staffers are mostly part-time/volunteers rather than journalists, so it seems pretty unlikely that you're going to see any real reporting coming from them. Nblund ^talk 17:07, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
            • I agree with Jzsj's point. That's why we avoid {{one source}} articles. Librarians make a distinction between having "a balanced book" and "a balanced library": while there's a place in the world for a balanced book (history textbooks for schoolchildren spring to mind as an example), it's usually better to have multiple books (e.g., a book about a war that argues persuasively that it was all economics, a book that promotes the diplomatic aspects, a book that that focuses on the Great man theory, etc., so that you end up with a balanced view). But you have to read multiple sources to figure out where the sources differ from each other.
              Simonm223, it's always good to find an idealist on the English Wikipedia. ;-)
              Nblund, I believe that's true. However, the definition of "reliable" isn't "the most reputable source we could use for this statement". "Barely reliable" is still reliable. (IMO this source is probably "reliable enough" for some claims. You won't see me seeking it out, however.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:14, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
          • Just a warning even about high school history books. It's reliably reported that conservative groups attend trustees meetings as in Texas and New York, and any trustee who approves of a book that criticizes capitalism or American democracy is "history". The few publishers don't take a chance with such books. To get a more objective course in American history one needs to use a college textbook. Jzsj (talk) 17:46, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

RfC: VGChartz

Other than sales data, what would best describe the reliability of VGChartz as a whole? (More detailed query below.) ToThAc (talk) 03:20, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

It's already been informally established that VGChartz is unreliable for everything pertaining to sales data. One excerpt from a certain bureaucrat of a non-Wikimedia wiki even summed up the following here:

Due to its popularity and being the most immediately visible source when researching sales data, it's hard not to address VGChartz.

Much has been written about the reliability of VGChartz. As explained on the site's methodology page, it has access to data from an undefined sampling of "retail partners", filling in the rest by guessing based on various trends (while the aforementioned trackers do not have access to every retail chain and do some number of "filling in the blanks", they are proven to track a substantial amount of retailers, unlike VGChartz). The fact that VGChartz numbers have frequently been contradicted by more official channels and other anomalies (In one instance, the site reported the game Arc Rise Fantasia as a best-seller for June 2010 despite the game not being released until the end of July) have led to several sites banning it as a source. As far as the wiki is concerned, VGChartz is not reliable and should not be used as a reference for sales data.

References

However, I have repeatedly seen VGChartz cited in areas other than sales data; most of it is to cite release dates and companies behind certain games, with some relevant news articles as well. Moreover, most of the criticism towards the site is usually limited to just the site's methodology in obtaining sales data. And so as far as Wikipedia is concerned, what options would best describe VGChartz's reliability?

1. Generally reliable
2. Generally reliable, with the exception of sales data (recommend better source)
3. Generally reliable, with the exception of sales data (require better source)
4. Generally unreliable

Cheers - ToThAc (talk) 02:11, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Survey (VGChartz)

• Option 4 per above. I also strongly oppose option 1. After some digging around, I learned that most of the articles on the site are user-generated content, while the news coverage could use better sources. ToThAc (talk) 02:11, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 4 - there’s already a pretty solid consensus on this amongst anyone who understands how Wikipedia defines an RS, and nothing has changed. Sergecross73 msg me 03:01, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
• It has been listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources#Unreliable sources for who knows how long. Why are we having an RFC about it? --Izno (talk) 03:07, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

  @Izno: This is about addressing the reliability of other parts of the site (articles, news, previews, etc), not necessarily their sales data. ToThAc (talk) 03:15, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

• Option 4 - there have been multiple discussions on VGChartz that show it is unreliable. What makes this discussion any different? Namcokid47 ^(Contribs) 03:17, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 4 Ive yet to see data sourced to VGChartz that cannot be sourced to better quality sources. --Masem (t) 03:49, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 4 Seems it has a reputation for non accuracy.Slatersteven (talk) 08:16, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 4 It's pretty clear that it can't be trusted. I've never seen it be viewed as reliable before, and we shouldn't start now. Nomader (talk) 21:38, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• Option 4 Not reliable. Comatmebro (talk) 05:05, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion (VGChartz)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Reliability — Newslinger talk 02:52, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

@Sergecross73 and Namcokid47: In case this wasn't already clear to either of you, I'm addressing the entire VGChartz website, not necessarily their sales data (which has already been proven unreliable). ToThAc (talk) 03:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

I am fully aware of that, and I am still opposing it. Nearly all of the content on there is user-generated, and lots of the articles are not in the best of quality. I still consider them unreliable. Namcokid47 ^(Contribs) 03:28, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the clarification. ToThAc (talk) 03:35, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

RfC: "The Gateway Pundit" (October)

Should The Gateway Pundit be deprecated? Or listed as generally unreliable? Or something else?

See thegatewaypundit.com  ; and for earlier thegatewaypundit.com discussion see earlier Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 256#Among low-quality sources, the most popular websites are right-wing sources; along with other previous mentions at: 256, 250, 241, and 233. X1\ (talk) 00:13, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Survey (The Gateway Pundit)

• Depreciate / Unacceptable as a source. It's a batshit insane far-right conspiracy blog. I don't know the difference between "depreciation" and "generally unreliable", but I support whatever ensures that this rubbish doesn't get cited here. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:25, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
• Not reliable for just about anything outside of their opinion, with in-line citations, in rare situations where their opinion is directly relevant; they're a blog with no particular reputation for fact-checking or accuracy (obviously.) That said, see my comment below - they're only being cited five times that I can see. As far as I can tell nobody is arguing that they are reliable anywhere for stuff outside that. We don't need to hold RFCs for things that are already universally-accepted; there are far too many unreliable sources in existence to enumerate them all. --Aquillion (talk) 01:25, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

• Aquillion, are you opposed to deprecating? X1\ (talk) 22:31, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

• Unreliable for statements of fact, and opinion wouldn't/shouldn't carry much weight in most cases, but as Aquillion says, it's not exactly a frequent problem. Certainly not opposed to deprecating if there's evidence it would save a nontrivial amount of effort. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:55, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
• In the very least unreliable. François Robere (talk) 17:34, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
• Unreliable for anything beyond their own opinion. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 17:49, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
• Not reliable for ... anything. Given that it's a hoax/fake news site I wouldn't even use them for their own "opinion" since those could just as well be trolling. Volunteer Marek 17:51, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate this fake news website known for partisan hackery and hoax articles. This is never an acceptable source. Toa Nidhiki05 17:57, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
• Not reliable, do not deprecate Clearly not a reliable site. No reason to deprecate as it clearly isn't being treated as reliable. We need to stop the deprecation game even with sites like this. Springee (talk) 18:07, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

• Springee, but they are often cited on Talk pages, per "everywhere search". Again, why do you say deprecation game? X1\ (talk) 22:35, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

• You are free to disagree with the term game but I'm firmly against going around and deprecating sources left and right. I'm not sure how deprecation is even supportable under WP:RS. My concern is two fold. First, let's assume a number of deprecated sources are all talking about the same thing. That means there might be some WEIGHT for inclusion in an article. That doesn't mean we treat the material as reliable but I do think deprecated sources can help establish weight if not reliability of some information. Here is another problem [[3]]. An article about Mossberg cited The Daily Caller for a basic factual claim (company had produced X number of some shotgun). This isn't a critical fact but for readers who are interested in firearms the article is better for it's inclusion and it certainly isn't a controversial claim. The citation was removed since DC has been deprecated. Now do we actually think the DC isn't reliable for that particular claim? So the typical reply when someone brings up such a point is, well if it's DUE then a RS will mention it and we can source it there. So I looked. I didn't check every link but what I found was a Mossberg press release (likely the DC's source of information) and a number of firearms blogs and forums discussing the topic. None of those sources would pass RS muster. However, the fact that so many websites are talking about the production stat suggests that, for that narrow audience, this is something that improves the Wiki article. If DC were treated like we treat a low quality source like Splinter News we would use them cautiously but we wouldn't have editors seeking out all references and removing the citation or even worse, removing the article content with the citation. I see no advantage to marking such sources with a "kill on sight" order. So, even in a case like there where I would be very suspect of any claim made by this source, I'm against deprecation here because I think it is problematic in principle. Springee (talk) 02:47, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• I don't know if we deprecate sources only for the AP2 area, but that is where they are completely unreliable. -- BullRangifer (talk) 02:55, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• I would be more comfortable with the concept if we specified something like AP2. Springee (talk) 03:28, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• Not reliable in the slightest. Depreciate – Muboshgu (talk) 18:53, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate. soibangla (talk) 19:01, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate I'm not sure this is necessary, because it seems like they are essentially already de-facto deprecated since they're a widely recognized purveyor of fake news. I don't see any problem with formalizing that classification, though. Nblund ^talk 21:19, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
• Unreliable and OK with deprecating - David Gerard (talk) 13:14, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate The fewer of these blatant misinformation sites we entertain, the better the whole project will be. They have a tendency toward supporting conspiracy theories, don't fact check much at all and exist as a propaganda tool. An encyclopedia should not be depending on such outlets. Simonm223 (talk) 13:50, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
• In the very least unreliable. I agree with Simonm223 and most others, deprecate is appropriate. This source is perennial as noted by various contributors, particularly highlighted by Aquillion's everywhere search. It will be useful to point novices, contrarians, etc to the Wikipedia:RSP citation of discussion if it gets a place on the table (hopefully). I don't understand Springee's "deprecation game" comment. How is it a "game"? X1\ (talk) 00:44, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate X1\ and Simonm223 make excellent points. The source regularly reports on conspiracy theories under the guise of news, which immediately calls into question whether any of their genuine news coverage is tainted with the desire to drive readers towards their own partisan views. Their SEO is structured so anyone looking to affirm a personal bias could easily search for say, "Badger Party planning frisbee ban", and get something resembling a WP:RS that could be injected into an article and left standing as authoritative information until another editor eventually susses it out. →‎ GS →‎ ☎ → 05:03, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
• Unreliable not "Deprecate" Deprecation is an extreme option over-used but not consistently used (leftist sources are usually spared the measure of deprecation). We have good, workable guidelines in WP:BIASED which allow editors to use their judgment with sources like the one we're talking about. Deprecation when there's no signifcant pattern of a given source being used to prop POV up in our articles is itself deprecated in WP:NOTCENSORED. --loupgarous (talk) 06:25, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• Leftist sources rarely engage in conspiracy theories treated as reportage. Those that do should be deprecated too. Simonm223 (talk) 16:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
• I agree with Simonm223's Those that do should be deprecated too. For useful list of "Hyper-Partisan Left - Most Extreme Left", see here (collected by BullRangifer). X1\ (talk) 19:40, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• I don't see any appropriate sources on that list. Though I wouldn't call any of them extreme left so much as extreme anti-Republican with poor or non-existent standards for fact checking. Thx X1.Simonm223 (talk) 11:08, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

• Deprecate I'm a latecomer to this but can't see a good rationale not to. Given the 3 posts above I'll add that this treatment should be even, any source that reports conspiracy theories as fact should be deprecated whatever their politics. Doug Weller talk 16:40, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• Bingo! Doug Weller there is another thread here about Fox News talk show hosts (not the News division). "Any source that reports conspiracy theories as fact should be deprecated whatever their politics." The same applies to them, and they should be deprecated. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
• Doug Weller I support the sentiment, but the application is lacking. This is particularly noticeable in the area of criminal justice. Freddie Gray was hurt before he was put in the van, not while he was in it. Daniel Holtzclaw's conviction is laden with red flags strongly suggesting that he didn't do any of it. And the Duke Lacrosse case was proven BS long before the NYT, WaPo, etc. said so. Each of the above has been documented in voluminous detail on sites that often remain relatively obscure and/or are treated as "unreliable" by WikiConsensus, while media that push "mainstream" narratives that fly in the face of demonstrable facts escape WikiPunishment. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:34, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• @Adoring nanny: provide RSs for your claims. X1\ (talk) 22:23, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

I can do that in the Duke case.[4] In the Freddy Gray case, I have a source that is likely WP:RS via WP:USEBYOTHERS, namely [5], but even there, there are WP:SYNTH issues, as the conclusion is obvious from listening to the whole thing, but I'm not sure if it's stated explicitly. In the Holtzclaw case, there appears to be consensus that the sources are not WP:RS, and that's the problem. When it is determinable that the non-RS have the story right and the RS have it wrong, yet we continue to keep our definitions of what is and is not reliable, then exactly what kind of world are we living in.[6][7][8] Adoring nanny (talk) 02:30, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

A YouTube video by Michelle Malkin is your purported source? The same Michelle Malkin who pushes anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, defends the illegal imprisonment of Japanese-Americans, and says the Anti-Defamation League is conspiring with antifa activists to destroy Trump? Alrighty then. (And your first link is to a website self-published by a member of Holtzclaw's legal defense team.)

Your apparent personal belief that the non-RS have the story right and the RS have it wrong about Holtzclaw is irrelevant to the encyclopedia and can have nothing whatsoever to do with article content. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:47, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

That's typical of the type of response I get on this. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to take the considerable time and effort that would be required to determine who has it right and who has it doesn't. It is frustrating to see people respond by lashing out at me and/or the sources. Adoring nanny (talk) 11:34, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

@Adoring nanny: You appear to be off-topic on judging whether The Gateway Pundit should be deprecated , or listed as generally unreliable , or something else? Citing a book is fine but irrelevant, undisclosed-podcast.com is irrelevant, HoltzclawTrial.com is inappropriate, National Review is considered per our table to be debatable, and YouTube is generally unreliable (depends on subsource). In your arguments, using only "generally reliable" sources will add credibility. This isn't the world per your what kind of world are we living in comment, it is Wikipedia and Wikipedia is built on generally reliable RSs, not wp:OR. We remove wp:OR and unreliable RSs, and in some cases we are obligated, by law to remove them. If you are interested in the topics in which you commented and gave sources, that is fine, but this RfC thread is on judging The Gateway Pundit as a source, not a casual forum, see WP:NOT. X1\ (talk) 23:12, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

• Not reliable Gerntrash (talk) 17:15, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• @Gerntrash: "Deprecate" since they spread "not" and anti-reliable information? X1\ (talk) 23:45, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

• Deprecate. It's far too unreliable. They regularly push conspiracy theories and lies, often from the Trump administration, passing them off as truth. "Any source that reports conspiracy theories as fact should be deprecated whatever their politics." (Doug Weller). -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:34, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate - I see it as misleading, sensationalist clickbait. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:35, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
• Unreliable. No corrections page for example, and definitely no reputation for accuracy. Adoring nanny (talk) 01:37, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• @Adoring nanny: "Deprecate" since they spread "not" and anti-reliable information? X1\ (talk) 23:47, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

No.Adoring nanny (talk) 00:57, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• Deprecate. Unreliable source that peddles conspiracy theories. Autarch (talk) 01:10, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
• Deprecate. As above - might as well formalize this, since there is no need to ever cite this. Neutrality^talk 01:33, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion (The Gateway Pundit)

• Is it actually being cited anywhere? A search finds only five uses in article space. Most of those should be replaced, but it's not exactly something pressing enough to require an RFC (with such a small number of cites, all of which look easy-to-replace, you can just replace them and open a discussion leading to an RFC if someone objects and you can't hash it out.) I'm not sure we need to bother with RFCs when it seems like virtually everyone agrees the source is unusable already (and are not using it.) --Aquillion (talk) 01:21, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

• I'd say the important question is not how often is it used at this very moment, but the more difficult to answer, "How often do people try to use it inappropriately and how much time is wasted discussing it?" Deprecating a source can be a huge time saver, assuming there is consensus that the source is bad enough to be worth deprecating, and there is actually time to be saved. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:36, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

• Hrm. A search for everywhere rather than just article content does turn up 86 uses (mostly talk.) Even then, though, it seems to be mostly new / inexperienced users bringing it up, and it's pretty clear that every time it comes up people are just like "no, you can't use that as a source." Most of the time they didn't seem to know WP:RS is a thing, so that conversation would still have to happen. --Aquillion (talk) 15:58, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

• There were some attempts to use it in 2016/17 before and after the election. Not so much now. It's possible these attempts could renew as we get closer to 2020. Volunteer Marek 17:53, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
• Aquillion is "Hrm" a reference to Ḥ-R-M? X1\ (talk) 00:44, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

• Deprecating a source because it might be abused in the future is political censorship. It seeks to usurp editors' judgment generally to apply the WP:BIASED guidelines because a given source might be abused - but no significant amount of such abuse is evident. Using the RFC process to censor future edits to the encyclopedia by prior restraint needs to be examined in the light of WP:NOTCENSORED. --loupgarous (talk) 06:38, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• @Vfrickey: the only prediction we have is by using past evidence, so we go by a sources' "track record", and for this one it is not good. X1\ (talk) 19:45, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

RfC: "ProPublica" (October)

Should ProPublica be listed as a generally reliable for news coverage? Or something else?

I see the issue; Should ProPublica be listed as a generally reliable in its areas of expertise? Or something else? X1\ (talk) 19:29, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

See propublica.org   and everywhere search in wp; and for earlier ProPublica.org discussion mentions see wp:RSN Archives: 132, 178, 213, 246, 251, 263, and 268. X1\ (talk) 19:39, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Updated lede sentence per feedback. X1\ (talk) 19:17, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Survey (ProPublica)

• Generally reliable in its areas of expertise Generally reliable for news coverage. X1\ (talk) 22:14, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• Updated my "vote" due to a couple of comments. X1\ (talk) 00:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• User:X1\ Please name specifically what the "areas of expertise" are. And please provide the RS you used to support that set of topics as being their areas of expertise, thanks. Note: No WP:OR of inferring from awards please, only state language and the source you had per WP:RS, please *not* one of its partners. And you can ignore the table. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:26, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• Markbassett, the "partners" are a long list of reliable RSs ...? X1\ (talk) 00:48, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• User:X1\ The topic is please name specifically the “areas of expertise”, with preference to articles on ProPublica from independent sources — so preferably not a partner. If you didn’t have an independent source mentioning such or were just using a phrase without RS then just say so. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:13, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

My input to first version of question Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Not news coverage - umm, they can't be a RS for news because they don't DO news of the day. They don't cover what is happening with Kurds or Brexit this week, Canadian election results, the woes of Man Utd, or natural disasters and such. They do investigative pieces from a progressive POV, with a data analysis approach. ProPublica is respectably known and usually has a factual data-driven content, but they do have a bias that they're open about, and do not present a balanced picture which they also are open about. It's going to be about telling you a way to see something Wrong from a progressive view point and nothing much else. Very well done, but limited in scope and POV. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:58, 22 October 2019 (UTC) umm, Markbassett, are you attempting a joke? If so, this is not the time or place. X1\ (talk) 19:12, 24 October 2019 (UTC) User:X1\ ??? No, it's no joke, don't see why you would think it was -- they really are not news coverage. Which I thought your later !vote-change edit indicated accepting. The being limited in scope and POV - well, again don't see how you could read that as a joke, it's basically said on their website and mission declarations. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:40, 26 October 2019 (UTC) @Markbassett: so you believe ProPublica can't be a RS for anything? X1\ (talk) 19:28, 26 October 2019 (UTC) User:X1\ the question asked was if “generally reliable for news coverage”, and my answer was no, because they don’t do that. Still don’t see how you felt that was a joke. I see there’s now a revised question “generally reliable in its areas of expertise”, which I haven’t responded to. As to whether they’re a RS for anything, that isn’t the topic and I’d prefer to just deal with the revised topic if anything. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:35, 26 October 2019 (UTC) Markbassett, Cheers X1\ (talk) 20:38, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

• Determine case-by-case - self-declared not balanced coverage, and expertise subject to author Mostly that editorial control and qualifications only extends to in-house writers. The external submitters and co- or re-published external pieces may differ. Generally seems excellent quality in writing and methods, but selection of facts and direction to analysis is self-admitted and noted by critics. In other words, this isn't the whole story or necessarily a fair one, so conclusions are likely POV but reported data is likely reliable. Positive points for background of reporters usually being well qualified in the field, positive points for being explicit online in how they check and self-admitting their limitations. Minor negatives that with the analysis pieces I saw there seems no open access to raw data, and minor negative that I see no example of a retraction. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

• Markbassett provide RSs for selection of facts, not balanced coverage, isn't the whole story or necessarily a fair one, likely POV, and previous request for RSs of progressive POV, have a bias, and do not present a balanced picture. Note: No wp:OR, only provide RS, such as from the table with . X1\ (talk) 22:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

• User:X1\ ? I don't see any "previous request for RSs" so I'll start from here, and take your asking as giving me permission to ask the same in return. I presume you are asking about their internal reporters instead of noting that they have external submissions and collaborations of co- or republished material not done under the same editorial control. As I recall, I looked their self-declaration and then what others said about them, and did a couple Googles of them with some negative words.

• Markbassett, see request 19:37, 26 October 2019. X1\ (talk) 00:30, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• ah, I see it now, a few screens *down* from here VS above here. I’ll go put in a reply. Markbassett (talk) 02:22, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• Mission is "To expose abuses of power and betrayals of the public trust by government, business, and other institutions, using the moral force of investigative journalism to spur reform through the sustained spotlighting of wrongdoing"
• Follow that with keeping bias out vs "investigative" - "First, it’s important to point out that ProPublica focuses mainly on investigative journalism, which is a particular genre that makes its reporting different than, say, political coverage. In most cases, investigative stories make an argument rather than just capture both sides of an issue. ... The stories often have a particular structure: Some person, government agency or other entity allegedly did something wrong and harmed others. Almost always, the wrongdoing is set against a standard — a law, ethical practice or norm. ... So on a certain level, some point of view is baked into investigative stories because, in many cases, reporters begin with a tip or data that suggests wrongdoing and then set out to determine if it occurred."
• Externally, MediaBiasFatCheck rates them "Left-Center biased based on story selection that favors the left and factually High due to proper sourcing and evidence based reporting." It notes their collaborations are with 47 sources including reputable left leaning news organizations. Also it mentions "In general, their investigations look at corruptions and abuses of power. While ProPublica purports to be non-partisan, a review of their recent reports are aimed at right leaning politicians and their issues." This criticism was also mentioned (more colorfully) by The Washington Examiner ProPublica is the left's biggest muckraker you never heard of.

• Markbassett, Media Bias/Fact Check site looks interesting, I'll check it out. X1\ (talk) 00:33, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• Example of criticism included their Surgeons Scorecard, as an example of Bad Data vs No Data. It was noted as setting off a firestorm, eviscerated in New England Journal of Medecine by Lisa Rosenbaum, and critiqued by The Rand Corp.
• I think that'll do for a start - next I'll put a question back at you. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:23, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• X1\, MBFC is not reliable in the slightest (as several discussions on this noticeboard have conclusively shown). The site is basically one random dude's opinions. It's not surprising in the slightest but still incredibly disappointing that a highly active editor in American politics, Markbassett, cites it as a reliable source while he attacks one of the greatest journalistic outfits as unreliable. Just further proof of why editing in American politics is so dysfunctional. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:03, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• Generally reliable in its areas of expertise When ProPublica does analysis, their number-crunching is reliable. But before they get to crunching numbers, ProPublica designs their studies to test what is generally a partisan hypothesis. They've done good work with the New Yorker in exposing ethical abuses surrounding commercial "storefront" stem cell therapy and their work's been deemed reliable by third party commenters such as medicinal chemist Derek Lowe in his "In The Pipeline" blog. They are useful and reliable on some stories, especially on the technical arguments surrounding contentious issues such as net neutrality (where they would be a good part of a balanced survey of informed opinion on such subjects). As with any openly partisan secondary source, editors ought to review the guidance in WP:BIASED before and while citing ProPublica. --loupgarous (talk) 22:52, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• @Vfrickey: could you provide RSs for the openly partisan claim? X1\ (talk) 19:23, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

• Generally reliable for all purposes - Five Pulitzer Prizes in 12 years of operation. Widespread recognition and republication in other sources. Zero evidence of any problems with their reporting. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:48, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
• Generally reliable for all purposes - The arguments presented by MarkBassett are mind-blowingly bad. Just one reason of many why editing in American politics is dysfunctional. ProPublica is top-tier journalism. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:18, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
• Not reliable I took a glance at their site and saw this[9] article about "the climate apocalypse to come", which gives me considerable pause. There is no concrete information about this "apocalypse" other than a statement that planned power blackouts are apparently a taste of it. I find the lack of a concrete definition concerning. They don't say what is going to happen or when. The fact that there are predictions of global warming and its consequences does not help them. If an "apocalypse" is coming, they should say what they mean by that. I am therefore going to have to say they are not reliable. Furthermore, their site is obviously WP:PARTISAN. Adoring nanny (talk) 23:00, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• @Adoring nanny: please provide RSs for the claim of obviously WP:PARTISAN. Your glance appears rather unfounded, as I see nothing not RS in the Abrahm Lustgarten article on 2019 California power shutoffs you apparently gave as evidence. Using a hyperbolic term in a title has been all-too-common in recent years; not evidence of non-RS. Provide evidence of your Not reliable claim. X1\ (talk) 22:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
• @Adoring nanny: see within the link you provided high quality RSs such as NPR.org, NYT; the article was co-published with New York Times magazine. X1\ (talk) 22:39, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
• @Adoring nanny: presumably, you understand WP:IDL is not the same as Not reliable. X1\ (talk) 22:42, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
• Adoring nanny, since you are not providing any backing for your comments, but providing a source to refute, am I to assume your first reaction was just I don't like it? If so, strikeout your "Not reliable" comment. There are eight "Generally reliable", one equivocation, and your (currently) unbacked "Not reliable". X1\ (talk) 23:23, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

At Wikipedia, where we strive to provide reliable information, we have an article about Global warming, and the Timeline of the far future states that in 1.3 billion years, Eukaryotic life will probably die out on Earth due to increased Solar luminosity. But we don't have an article on The coming climate apocalypse because it's a hyperbolic claim that lacks clear meaning.Adoring nanny (talk) 01:51, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• Generally reliable for all purposes - In 2019 alone, so far, this decade-old organization of more than 75 journalists has won dozens of journalism awards, including a Pulitzer Prize for Feature Writing. Anyone who calls an organization for investigative journalism, much honored for its factual accuracy, as "obviously partisan" is betraying their own political bias — like those who dismiss such factual science as evolution as somehow "liberal." I don't even know how this isn't a WP:SNOWBALL discussion.--Tenebrae (talk) 00:13, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Please strike per WP:NPA. Adoring nanny (talk) 01:34, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

It's not a personal attack, it's ad hominem, yes but still nothing that needs be struck out. --qedk (t 桜 c) 13:50, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Direct quote from WP:NPA -- "Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream" Adoring nanny (talk) 02:55, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't think the unsigned comment directly above uses "affiliation" correctly. What the commenter quotes refers to: "Well, he's a member of the ACLU / NRA / New York Yankees, so he's wrong." --Tenebrae (talk) 21:21, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Found and added signage missing from above. X1\ (talk) 23:50, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

You are arguing that "betraying their own political bias" does not refer to a perceived affiliation. I believe it does, specifically perceived political affiliation. Adoring nanny (talk) 01:51, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• Generally reliable per their Pulitzer Prize and otherwise incredible work. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:19, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
• Generally reliable ProPublica is used extensively by news sources, it makes no sense to think PP itself to be just reliable in areas of expertise. --qedk (t 桜 c) 13:52, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
• Generally reliable. I’ll respond to Mark in that while ProPublica typically practices investigative reporting, they’re similar to the AP in that they break the news, and outlets pick it up after, as you’ve noted. Also: when picking up an article outide their bureau, it’s subject to the same editorial control and vetting. This is fairly standard, and as far as I know, they’ve never had to issue a major retraction. As the evaluations of the journalistic community’s generally say about ProPublica: “this is a journal for journalists”. It has one of the highest calibers of reputation in journalism internationally. Republication is part of their standard business model. Lastly, it has no professed bias, as you claim. The founders were once asked whether their political leanings would affect the content, and you can clearly see their response in the article. Bolstering that, their reputation is generally regarded as just supplying good journalism. It shouldn’t matter matter whether they’re a 24 hour news television channel, or a newspaper that simply repeats the investigative journalism of others. They’re about as reliable as you get. It’s not a source that regurgitates the news, but breaks it. None of your objections are rooted in any policy I’ve ever read. As far as WP:DUE, I had no real opinion before, burn simply commented on the sourcing and your mid characterization of it. But given the multiple secondary sources that have started pouring out since, it’s clearly worth a few lines. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 03:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
• Generally reliable. Highly reputable, Pulitzer Prize-winning publication. This is not a close call. Neutrality^talk 01:28, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion (ProPublica)

• ProPublica#Awards is rather impressive. --Ronz (talk) 21:29, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
• Context? Has this been challenged somewhere? What was it being used for? I've not seen treating PP as a source be controversial in the past. If it's been unclear, it would be helpful to link past discussions (plaintext mentions of archives doesn't do much more than a search bar would). If past threads have been clear, we can just add it to RSP. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 00:02, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

• Specifically, the RfC was spawned by this comment, but I have seen other surprising comments during semi-random general browsing. I have generally thought of ProPublica as well-respected investigative journalism RS, and with impressive detail at that. But I don't generally follow them, and only recently for the first time looked at their homepage. Maybe I have only seen the best quality works, may be it is on an author by author basis? So I wanted other comments. If some consensus-ish discussion is reached here, then I can point other editors it for reference. X1\ (talk) 19:39, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

• Yeah, that's ridiculous. The nature of ProPublica's work is the journalism itself, not the publishing. Its reporting is highly visible not because people visit its website but because publications like The New York Times pick up the stories. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:45, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
• It looks like their concern is WP:DUE, not WP:RS (although they're somewhat related.) There are publications whose reputation is so weighty that when they give significant attention to a subject it is almost automatically WP:DUE; then there are ones that lack that automatic weight but which still clearly pass WP:RS. Without regard to the question of which one ProPublica falls into (it's usually a much harder and more context-sensitive question to answer than whether a publication passes WP:RS), I don't think they're suggesting it's unreliable, so there's not much for WP:RSN to say. That sort of question usually goes to WP:NPOVN (and generally doesn't get an easy answer, because, again, it's tricky.) --Aquillion (talk) 23:39, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, the concern was DUE -- whether ProPublica alone was enough WEIGHT to get an article into Presidency of Donald Trump. It was posted to the TALK within hours of going online. (I generally suggest NOT just doing a copy-paste of whatever was in the mornings feed, and a 48 hour waiting period for WEIGHT and more information to show up.) Since then a couple major venues seconded it, but of circa 25 major venues that's all so far. It also has some issues of being an esoteric statistic and being phrased as a comparison to Obama rather than an absolute metric or across longer time period, but mostly it just hasn't hit DUE for consideration yet. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:50, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

• @Rhododendrites: for the Archives;

132 = a PBS Frontline investigation, coupled with ProPublica, a journal for journalists, published by people who came from the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. = i.e. among high-quality RSs.

178 = ProPublica used as an RS.

213 = News organizations using a third-party fact checking service = ProPublica listed with other high-quality RSs.

246 = Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism, which is a (high-quality) non-profit, investigative journalism outfit that prouces such investivative pieces but instead/in-addition to publishing on its own niche website, offers them to its affiliated partners that have a broader reach. See ProPublica, which follows the same model at a national scale. = ProPublica listed with other high-quality RSs.

251 = from other reliable sources such as Propublica or the Guardian = ProPublica listed with other high-quality RSs.

263 = ProPublica has an expressed interest in fighting corruption "through the sustained spotlighting of wrongdoing." = strong journalism quality, strong RS.

268 = ProPublica used as an RS.

X1\ (talk) 19:28, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• User:X1\ - again, nobody is saying they do not do some quality work, we're just saying by their own statements (such as this 'interest in fighting corruption "through the sustained spotlighting of wrongdoing."') they're whole goal and methods are crusading for Progressive topics by showing wrongdoing, so ... only going to show the numbers that advantage Progressive topics, and actually only show numbers in a way that makes things appear Wrong doing. They don't do balanced views or get responses or seek alternative explanations or show something going right even on the Progressive side, they just seek for the expose. For any external writer guest piece, I couldn't say it's the same quality of editorial control but would say it's still going to fit to the model of limited scope and POV. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:56, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

• Interesting criteria, but none of it is relevant to the source's reliability, while seeming POV-violating as well.--Ronz (talk) 16:38, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
• So, Markbassett you believe spotlighting of wrongdoing is only progressive politics? I strongly disagree. Can you provide RSs to back the claims you are making? X1\ (talk) 19:37, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

• User:X1\ no I said that was spotlighting of wrong-doing for Progressive topics. (I.e. About Immigration, Health care, Education... Civil rights, Criminal justice, Environment, Gender issues... they typically don’t spotlight wrongdoing for other concerns.) Investigative pieces seeking wrongdoing on Progressive topics are a description of how they’re focused. I have seen at least one piece other than ‘spotlighting of wrong-doing’, but just ONE seems rare. Feel free to try offering contrary evidence that most pieces are not exposes, or that most topics are not Progressive (or say Liberal), but I think you’re speaking contrary to obvious facts and their own self-declarations there. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:42, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

• X1\, you beat me to it! It's a sad day when even defenders of the GOP and Trump recognize that an 'interest in fighting corruption "through the sustained spotlighting of wrongdoing"' is a "Progressive topic", rather than a conservative topic. It didn't used to be this way. It used to be (back in Eisenhower's day) that the GOP prided itself on exposing corruption, rather than covering it up. -- BullRangifer (talk) 00:02, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
• Yes, exactly! I love how "fighting corruption" is somehow "Progressive." All investigative journalism fights corruption and criminality by shining a spotlight on it. Unless one is suggesting that allowing corruption is "Conservative," then one can't suggest that fighting corruption is "Progressive." --Tenebrae (talk) 00:17, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Litmus test for source reliability in the AmPol2 area

Litmus tests are a handy method for settling controversial issues. They have been used in chemistry, politics, and Wikipedia needs to use a good litmus test to help us determine the reliability of sources for certain topics.

• Proposition:

That we adopt a litmus test for judging source reliability in the American politics 2 area and will let the best fact checkers make the judgments, not partisan editors. RS must be our guide star. Partisan editors do not trump RS and fact checkers.

This litmus test may be modified for use beyond politics, but for now, let us focus on those political topics because extremely partisan reporting tends to affect politics more than other mundane factual matters (and we can use generally RS for such matters). We know that media bias in the United States exists and that it is now more extreme than ever. The fringes of both left- and right-wing sources distort the facts, and those sources are thus unreliable for use here.

Source bias alone is not sufficient for answering these questions, because left- and right-wing bias, when closer to the center, doesn't have to distort or ignore the facts, but when one gets further from the center, that bias begins to distort the facts, often to the point of pushing deceptive talking points, labeling lies as truth, advancing conspiracy theories, and even fake news ("alternative facts"). Such media echo chambers feed their audiences misinformation so they end up in an isolating filter bubble of deception, leaving them ignorant of the facts. Such people edit here and come across as incompetent to edit in the AmPol2 area when they propose that both CNN and Fox News should be deprecated. There is a vast difference, and fact checkers document it.

• Litmus test:

If a source regularly pawns off proven lies as truth to its audience, that makes it an unreliable source.

• Application:

Because fact checkers and RS correctly and consistently label a myriad of Donald Trump's statements as lies or unfactual, and most partisan right-wing sources consistently push those lies and unfactual statements as if they were true, then we must not use those sources for AmPol2 subjects.

This pushing of Trump's falsehoods is not a bug, but a feature, for these sources. It's not an accident. They are not fact-checking their content, and thus fail our most basic requirement for all reliable sources. They are unreliable sources and should be deprecated for use on AmPol2 subjects. Sources on the extreme left-wing which consistently push falsehoods should suffer the same fate.

The litmus test should be used as part of our RS-determination process.

• Specific application to Fox News (talk shows) and Trump's dubious relationship to truth and facts. (added later)

Some questions to ask:

Does Fox News (talk shows) ever publish a Trump statement and point out it's a lie? Do they do this consistently, so that readers get the impression that most of what he says can't be trusted (because that's the case)? Or do Trump supporters find support for their delusional beliefs by reading content at Fox News? -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:29, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Meet the fact checkers

Fact checkers should factor heavily into how we rate sources for factual accuracy. They are the gold standard, so use them often.

• Washington Post fact checker team led by Glenn Kessler
• Poynter Institute

• Poynter International Fact Checking Network

• PolitiFact - website

• Holan, Angie Drobnic (February 12, 2018). "The Principles of the Truth-O-Meter: How we fact-check". PolitiFact. Retrieved October 20, 2018.

• FactCheck.org - website
• Snopes.com - website

Sources which should be deprecated for AmPol2 subjects

All the sources listed here are unreliable for the AmPol2 area. Some are just too biased, and most fail the litmus test and should be deprecated for that reason. Deprecations should be done on a case-by-case basis. The proposal is for the wording and use of the litmus test, not for deprecations here and now.

No deprecations right now
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hyper-Partisan Left - Most Extreme Left Forward Progressives Bipartisan Report Occupy Democrats Daily Kos AlterNet Palmer Report Patribotics Hyper-Partisan Right - Most Extreme Right Fox News New York Post Daily Mail The Federalist OAN Drudge Report Breitbart News The Epoch Times‎ Newsmax RedState InfoWars The Daily Wire The Daily Caller Conservative Tribune Townhall Hyper-Partisan Right - Most Extreme Right (cont.) TheBlaze World Truth TV WorldNetDaily (WND) (birther central) The Gateway Pundit LifeZette The American Spectator Real News Update (Trump TV) Australian National Review Political Insider Liberty Headlines Your Newswire The Duran Russian disinformation RT Sputnik Zero Hedge

BullRangifer (talk) 19:11, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Litmus test discussion

• I think this might be worthy of an essay, but I think we should be addressing these sources on a case-by-case basis. Some of the sources listed here are already deprecated, others (like Fox News) are reliable for some purposes and not for others. More importantly: news sources in general aren't necessarily all that great for writing encyclopedia entries. Nblund ^talk 19:31, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

• I totally agree that deprecations should be done on a case-by-case basis. The proposal is for the wording and of the litmus test. Any improvements would be welcome. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:39, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

• I agree with Nblund, and will add that few, if any, news sources would pass a litmus test because of RECENTISM, propagandizing by pundits, and errors and omissions. We already have PAGs that address how we should be using RS - see RECENTISM, NOTNEWS, and NEWSORG for starters. Then we have BLP, NPOV, OR and V. RS become a concern when editors don't strictly adhere to our basic core content policies and guidelines for news sources. We are not obligated to include everything the news publishes within days or even weeks of it being published. There's an obvious reason for the rush - the 2020 election - and I, like many others, oppose WP being used in that manner. Why not wait until a "hot-off-the-press" article is proven/disproven? WP content should have lasting encyclopedic significance, and not serve as an archive for news/pundit articles. Just sayin'....^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:11, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

• I like the idea, even if compromises need to be made to get wide consensus. It would be useful to identify which sources would be impacted. --Ronz (talk) 21:26, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
• I would oppose a litmus test. Sources always need to be evaluated in context, and litmus tests don’t take context into account. Blueboar (talk) 21:41, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

• Blueboar, yes, no disagreement about context, but many sources do "regularly pawn off proven lies as truth" in the context of AmPol2 subjects. We shouldn't have to constantly deal with newbies, drive-by editors, and editors who lack competence (I gave a very recent CNN/Fox incompetence example from a very experienced editor) who try to use these unreliable sources within the AmPol2 subject area. We should be able to point to the deprecation and quickly end the discussion. We already do that with many deprecated sources, but there are some sources that consistently "pawn off proven lies as truth" which are not deprecated for this topic area. Fox News "regularly pawns off proven lies as truth", and yet we don't deprecate it, even though fact checkers rate Fox News dead last for reliability. Defending such lies is their normal practice. On the rare occasions when it isn't pushing and defending Trump's lies, it's Shep Smith (no longer at Fox), Chris Wallace, or Neil Cavuto who dare to challenge all the other pundits at Fox and tell the truth. (Napolitano occasionally does that.) All the rest push and defend these lies, rendering Fox generally unreliable. Either we deprecate it, or we state clearly that it should be used with caution in this topic area, IOW generally only use it when it is those reporters who are telling the truth. Can we do that? The litmus test is pretty obviously useful. -- BullRangifer (talk) 22:25, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

• This is an interesting proposal. I agree that reliable fact-checkers like the ones you listed should play a role in how editors evaluate source reliability, since they are a type of reliable source and should be taken into account under the "usage by other sources" guideline. However, since there are not that many fact-checkers, I don't think fact-checkers alone will provide the coverage we need to comprehensively determine whether a source is (un)reliable. Specifically, I don't think articles examined in fact checks form a representative sample of all articles published by a source – fact-checked articles tend to be more controversial. (Likewise, the number of times a source is discussed on this noticeboard is an indicator of how controversial it is, but not a strong indicator of how accurate it is. General reliability is determined by evaluating a source in its entirety, and is subject to a long list of context-related exceptions.) — Newslinger talk 22:56, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

• The issue isn't so much about fact checkers, but about proven lies which are then pushed as truth on a consistent and daily basis by certain sources. In our current AmPol2 environment, these sources are known to be pro-Trump, and the only way to be pro-Trump when dealing with his falsehoods is to deny he said them, ignore them, or push them as truth. Fox News and other right-wing sources do this as a rule, not an exception. Here's where the litmus test comes into play. If we keep catching a source pushing lies, then they should be deprecated. They are not fact-checking their own reporting. -- BullRangifer (talk) 00:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
  • We already deprecate sources for publishing false or fabricated information, but whether a source meets the threshold for deprecation is a community decision. Based on past discussions and RfCs, Fox News (RSP entry) doesn't have anything close to the required amount of community support for deprecation, resulting in multiple aborted RfCs. In fact, no RfC on Fox News has survived the 30-day period on this noticeboard since the 2010 one, which concluded that Fox News is generally reliable under WP:NEWSORG. If you don't think this is the correct designation for Fox News, perhaps you could work with François Robere to craft a new RfC at User:François Robere/sandbox/Fox News that is phrased agreeably enough to last 30 days on this noticeboard. Ultimately, a re-evaluation of Fox News requires consensus from the community. Fact-checkers can inform the community's opinion, but they don't replace it. — Newslinger talk 00:36, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• Newslinger, I am more concerned about the misinformation, conspiracy theories, anonymous sources, false reports by foreign agents and so on that a variety of MSM sources have been publishing over the past 2 years, not just FOXNews. The Trump-Russia collusion (conspiracy theory) was debunked by Mueller's 2 year investigation, and to say otherwise is wishful thinking or speculation at best. If we are going to evaluate FOXNews, then the same should apply to the NYTimes, WaPo, and others who perpetuated the collusion theory. Granted, several prime time pundits on FOX rejected the collusion theory, but they aren't news anchors or journalists. This proposal is a side door to noncompliance with OR. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:21, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• Atsme, "conspiracy" was not proven, but the Mueller Report contains numerous examples of collusion/cooperation with an enemy power, all lied about by the Trump campaign. Over a hundred secret meetings between Trump people and Russian assets. It is not a conspiracy theory. Fox News pushes that "conspiracy theory" angle, which is an example of them pushing falsehoods. -- BullRangifer (talk) 01:30, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• ​For the record, I think it's highly unlikely that there is consensus for any of the sources you mentioned – Fox News, The New York Times (RSP entry), and The Washington Post (RSP entry) – to be reclassified as anything other than generally reliable. But, I don't speak for the community at large. For any editor who seeks to challenge existing consensus, my message has been consistent: the community needs to show consensus for the proposed changes, and consensus is gauged through discussion. The past noticeboard discussions on these sources speak for themselves, and in the absence of new revelations that significantly impair the sources' reputations for fact-checking and accuracy, these sources will almost certainly still be considered generally reliable under WP:NEWSORG. — Newslinger talk 02:03, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• Newslinger, that's a pretty sad situation, of which have been acutely aware. One would think that this new angle (pushing of lies on a daily basis and failure to fact check) would be enough to change consensus, but I fear that we have far too many editors here who believe those lies (no need to look far for examples) to be able to get the desired result. The opinions of partisan editors still trump RS and fact checkers here. Is there any hope for Wikipedia? -- BullRangifer (talk) 01:27, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
  • In my opinion, the editor base of the English Wikipedia is diverse enough for any partisanship among individual editors to be cancelled out as editing disputes are resolved through consensus. Depending on how popular an article is, some articles will take longer than others to become neutral, but with enough attention, all articles will eventually meet all of our core content policies.

    Reliability is not the only standard for inclusion – if a source that is considered reliable publishes incorrect information, its claims can be countered by other reliable sources (including fact-checkers) and presented in a way that assigns due weight to each position. If the source publishes a specious superminority position that is not corroborated by other reliable sources, it can be completely excluded from the article under editorial discretion (and in many cases, under our policy on exceptional claims).

    If a source is unreliable enough, the community will reach a breaking point (e.g. the 2017 Daily Mail RfC) and reclassify the source to save time on repetitive discussions. I hope that Fox News never becomes unreliable enough to reach that point, since it is beneficial for editors to have as many usable sources available as possible. But if it does get to that point, go ahead and submit an RfC – and that applies to any source. — Newslinger talk 02:03, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• We have just been through a case where Glenn Kessler wrote a falsehood about The Daily Caller, then made a non-apologetic correction (which snopes.com has still not done. The falsehood was in Wikipedia's Daily Caller page for a short while without the correction. I think that shows not just how the proposed fact checkers can be unreliable, but also that they get more trust than they deserve. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 23:54, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

  Is there something in Snopes's "Did U.S. Rep. Ilhan Omar Say ‘Our Country Should Be More Fearful of White Men’?" that should be corrected? The statements

The edited video resurfaced on July 24, 2019, when a writer for the right-leaning Daily Caller News Foundation posted a clip of the interview from the Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN), to her Twitter page. That tweet was then picked up and given legs by U.S. Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Florida, who retweeted with the comment, “I am sure the media will now hound every Democrat to denounce this statement as racist. Right?”

appear to be a correct description of Molly Prince's original tweet and Marco Rubio's retweet. The Snopes fact check does not attribute the clip to The Daily Caller or the Daily Caller News Foundation. — Newslinger talk 00:10, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• The story is correct. It was just mistakenly attributed to a Daily Caller contributor, so it was a cse of misattribution. Yes, that was an error, but a rare one. -- BullRangifer (talk) 00:13, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
  • The Washington Post did make an error here, which they corrected, but I don't see any errors from Snopes in their fact check. — Newslinger talk 00:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• Agreed. It's not about never making errors, but about making them rarely and correcting them, all versus making errors as a deliberate method of operation and not correcting them. Then falsehoods are a feature, and not a bug. -- BullRangifer (talk) 00:21, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

The 2019-07-24 Twitter post in question was identified as by Molly Prince "reporter@realDailyWire". As far as I can tell the last Daily Caller article by Molly Prince was 2019-07-12. More recent articles are by Molly Prince at Daily Wire. As for assertions about rarity, even if there was a way to evaluate that, it wouldn't matter because WP:RSCONTEXT says we have to look, not believe assertions about generalities. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 01:57, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

On July 26, 2019, the day that the Snopes fact check was published, Molly Prince's Twitter bio was "Too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns", with no mention of The Daily Caller or The Daily Wire. Combined with the fact that her profile on The Daily Caller still describes her as "a politics reporter at the Daily Caller News Foundation", Snopes's description of her as "a writer for the right-leaning Daily Caller News Foundation" was reasonably accurate at the time of publication. Without an announcement from Prince, The Daily Caller, or The Daily Wire, we don't know the exact date Prince left the Daily Caller News Foundation, or if she is still with them. — Newslinger talk 02:31, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Agree, calling that a "falsehood" is quite the stretch. She indisputably was a writer for the Daily Caller (having written an article for them only two weeks before the Snopes fact check was published), and the Daily Caller still says that she "is a politics reporter at the Daily Caller". Just because she more recently wrote for someone else doesn't make Snopes' statement a "falsehood". If she had never been associated with the Daily Caller, and especially if she had instead been a left-wing writer, things would be different. But to say this is a falsehood, and further that it is one so severe as to impact their reliability, is, in my opinion, beyond the pale. At worst it is an incredibly minor error, but even that is quite debatable. AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 02:53, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

We have seen that Molly Prince identifies herself exclusively as a reporter for Daily Wire, and has been writing for Daily Wire since as early as July 18, after her last known writing for Daily Caller and before the Twitter post in question. And Kessler admitted she was not a Daily Caller reporter at the time of the Twitter post. Newslinger's new thing is something that links to a Russian translation of a Twitter page that says nothing about what she worked for, so it is worth nothing. Thus Newslinger's only evidence is: a Daily Caller page. So acepting Newslinger means accepting The Daily Caller regardless what Prince and Kessler and Daily Wire say. But a simpler explanation exists: The Daily Caller didn't update the page recently. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:36, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

This page is the Wayback Machine's July 26 archive of Molly Prince's tweet. For archival, the Wayback Machine rotates between servers in different geographic areas. Frequently, an archival is performed by a server in an area for which Twitter defaults to non-English pages; for these archivals, Twitter's interface is in the non-English language, but the content of the page (including the user's bio and tweets) are in the language they were originally posted, completely unchanged.

However, the July 26 archive of Prince's tweet that I linked to is in English. On a desktop or laptop computer, you can see Prince's bio, "Too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns", on the left side of the page under the transparent gray overlay; the bio does not mention The Daily Caller or The Daily Wire. According to the archives, Prince changed her Twitter bio to "Reporter at @realDailyWire" some time between August 2 and August 8, well after Snopes published their July 26 fact check.

It is The Daily Caller's responsibility to identify their own staff and Molly Prince's responsibility to identify herself. If they can't do that properly, it's a stretch to shift the blame to Snopes. I agree with AmbivalentUnequivocality: "At worst it is an incredibly minor error, but even that is quite debatable." — Newslinger talk 19:38, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Blame whom you like, snopes was wrong and so were you. I regret having to spend so much time establishing something that was so clear from the start, and will spend no more time on this thread. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 20:01, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

But they weren't wrong. Her writing for someone else later does not change the past, or negate her previous work. Without some sort of official statement of separation, there is no reason she cannot be considered a contributor to both publications other than your opinion and assumptions. They are not mutually exclusive. No reasonable person would say "She is only a writer for them in the moment she is published, immediately following that she is no longer a writer for them until the moment her next piece is published. Since she wrote in that publication two weeks ago, she definitely isn't a writer for them now." AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 22:26, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• It's a good start, although I feel that the absolute best sources for determining reliability are not fact-checker results on individual facts, but in-depth high-quality reporting on the source as a whole and its history. That sort of coverage can put individual controversies into a larger context that establishes the source's entire reputation, as well as establishing if these issues are the result of systemic problems (eg. management that prioritizes advancing a policy goal over fact-checking or accuracy.) --Aquillion (talk) 07:15, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• Mmmmm, a newspaper as a fact checker? Sorry but we have to be 100% sure any fact checker has no bias.Slatersteven (talk) 08:46, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• Fact checkers are usually employed as a distinct team within a newspaper, with the sole purpose (until today, anyway) of verifying reportage prior to publication. They do not write pieces, let alone opinion ones. François Robere (talk) 18:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• I agree with Newslinger and others who support our current PAGs and how we treat RS, which appears to be the prevailing view here. If wider community input is required, close this discussion and open an RfC at VP. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 10:04, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• I don't like this idea. Who is watching the watchers? They aren't perfect either and it can be problematic when they get into the gray area of fact checking less black and white claims. There is also a concern regarding bias based on outside articles [[10]], [[11]], [[12]],[[13]]. The fact check sites are useful but like so many things, especially in politics we are rarely dealing with black and white issues and which shade of gray you wish to view often depends personal views/interpretations. So beyond that, where does this lead? Would we have just a list of "acceptable" sources? What happens if a new source comes on line? Would it be off limits until blessed? What if a story by a source that isn't blessed gets a lot of traction and is seen as both influential and reliable? Really, I'm not sure what this proposal would solve. Yes, many of the political articles are poorly written but I think that has more to do with issues with failing to summarize and writing as if we are trying to persuade in the present vs telling people in the future what happened in the past. Springee (talk) 15:09, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• Who's watching us? If you dismiss fact checkers' as un-authoritative, then you're just passing up the responsibility to us. Who says we're better equipped to judge statements then expert investigators? François Robere (talk) 18:52, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• The problem isn't with lack of data or with the ability to deprecate sources, it's with Wikipedians' willingness to admit some sources are worse then others. For example, we already have a plethora of sources on the unreliability of Fox News, including peer-reviewed studies (see here), yet some Wikipedians still insist FN is "as reliable as any other outlet". If Wikipedia can't transcend its own politics to follow RS, then by all means - outsource the decision to other RS. François Robere (talk) 18:41, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

My opinion... playing “gotcha” with the media is pointless. They ALL have twisted the news to fit narratives when it suits... and ALL have been criticized for it at one point or another. Not ONE is exempt. If we are going to call one out, we should call them ALL out. Declare ALL news outlets flawed. Blueboar (talk) 20:46, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

That is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. All news outlets may be flawed, but they are not equally flawed. That is like saying "Who cares if one person stole a candy bar and one person murdered a thousand people, they are both criminals and we should treat them equally". A source that makes occasional errors and quickly corrects them is substantively different than a source that constantly, and knowingly, publishes falsehoods with no corrections. AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 22:31, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Blueboar, and will add that the days of automatically considering news sources reliable based on their past reputations for fact checking and correcting mistakes may still hold true for print but what we’re dealing with today is the internet. Not all mistakes are automatically corrected as evidenced time and Times again. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that some of the mistakes were made purposely. As editors, we must exercise caution, follow our PAGs and use good editorial judgment. We’re dealing with fast news, clickbait headlines, and intense online competition unlike what we had back in the day of prepping articles with editorial oversight before the story hit the daily presses. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 04:52, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

We know both you (Blueboar) and Atsme are of that opinion that all of outlets are equal, but can you actually back it with sources? I've a pageful of sources on Fox (including peer-reviewed studies, and quotes from over two dozen RS) that show that FN is unusually, and consistently biased. François Robere (talk) 22:02, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

As a former independent CNN field producer many years ago, I don't take a position that I cannot back-up with facts, so I'll start by providing a bit of educational reading material that speaks to your question: Understanding bias, Don’t Blame The Election On Fake News. Blame It On The Media., and Why The Left Can't Stand The New York Times. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:02, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Now you need to read Network Propaganda' by Robert Faris and Yochai Benkler. This documents in great detail the change in Fox News, specifically, but also other right-wing news sources, over the last few years. Fox News has effectively joined the right wing media bubble, it has stopped citing sources outside the bubble, and that has led to a rapid increase in bias. The right wing media bubble does not engage in normal journalistic self-correction, it responds to falsification by doubling down or airbrushing out. If Fox News was ever a reputable news source, that time has ended. The only way you can use Fox is if it's corroborated by a reliable source, in which case there's no need to cite Fox. Guy (help!) 13:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

@Atsme and Blueboar: I'm not asking for intros, I'm asking for something concrete, like Network Propaganda - the book Guy cites. Do you have something like that that makes a reasoned evaluation of how and why American media is "all equal", or not? François Robere (talk) 19:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

The Columbia Journalism Review speaks to some of the information in the source you cited, Guy, and the attempts some European countries have made in good faith in the name of democracy but end-up imposing on free speech. There is a big difference between European democracies and our US Republic, so I expect and welcome different POVs. I'm ok with letting consensus make the decisions here - and they already have, over and over again, regarding FoxNews as being generally reliable along with any other generally reliable news source per RECENTISM, NEWSORG and NOTNEWS. We cannot rely solely on the single source you cited to rule out Fox News - we need specifics, and not from a single POV. I cited more than one source because they are educational/professional and reach into what is at the core of journalism. I look forward to seeing an updated Harvard review on this topic. I oppose state-run media because I am well aware of where it leads. The internet has certainly changed the way we receive our news, and it is not always for the better. There is clearly a trend toward a more slanted liberal bias in msm, perhaps it is more evident because of Trump's antics and the negativity surrounding his candidacy and the fact that so many people don't quite understand the workings of our electoral college and that it is actually part of the checks and balances that guard our elections against a mobocracy. I want to hear all sides of an issue including views from the far left, left, liberal, center, right, far right and independents. I want to know the views of Europeans and their take on US politics. There have been instances when a particular issue seemed out of sorts from a European perspective but was legal and perfectly acceptable in the US under our Bill of Rights. It's a balancing act and requires strict adherence to NPOV. It also exemplifies the need to stick to the facts and avoid speculation. Of course there will be partisan opposition to Fox but there's a reason for their high ratings vs the ratings of other cable news networks. We don't have to like it, and I'm sure the opposition to Fox can come up with plenty of reasons to discredit their ratings, but we should at least take it into consideration - the same way we do polling. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

The question of how society should fix is it independent of the question of whether (and why) sources in the right wing media bubble are unreliable. The evidence is very clear: Fox was a heavily-right-leaning source, and in recent years has effectively joined the bubble sources that weight "truth" by ideology not factual accuracy. Guy (help!) 18:31, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

If you don't mind me weighing in here, here is what I am seeing, which of course is weighted by my biases. Guy, you know how strongly I agree with you on most things, but there is one area where our views differ. I have a pretty much equally low opinion of Team Blue and Team Red, while in my opinion to you every lie and every stupidity of Team Red -- great or small -- is glaringly obvious to you while -- again in my opinion -- to you the the lies and stupidity of Team Blue really hard for you to see. I have also seen many editors who have the exact same problem except with the teams reversed. None of you are stupid or obviously wrong, but you are biased (as am I). I personally see some good and a lot of bad on both teams. We are all biased in different ways and when I say that in my opinion my equal bias against both teams is correct, the obvious reply is "well he would say that, wouldn't he?", but I can say this with a fair dgree of confidence; it is the considered opinion of the Wikipedia community as a whole that we should not deprecate Fox News.

Look at this NYT story.[14]

" 'The faster metabolism puts people who fact-check at a disadvantage,' said Ryan Grim, the Washington bureau chief for The Huffington Post, which reposted the fictional airplane tweets, the letter to Santa and the poverty essay. 'If you throw something up without fact-checking it, and you’re the first one to put it up, and you get millions and millions of views, and later it’s proved false, you still got those views. That’s a problem. The incentives are all wrong.' But Mr. Cook says he thinks that readers can tell which content is serious and which is taken from the web without vetting. 'We assume a certain level of sophistication and skepticism of our readers,' he said."

While the paragraph I just quoted is about the left-leaning Huffington Post, I think it is fair to say that the same can be said about many right-leaning sources. We should use them, but with care. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:44, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Guy Macon, We do indeed agree on most things, and I would like you to understand why I consider the difference between left-partisan and right-partisan sources to be significant to their reliability. I presume we both agree that mainstream sources such as WSJ, WaPo, NYT and so on are generally reliable for claims of fact made in their factual, rather than editorial, pages.

I made a comment below about the asymmetric polarisation of partisan media. Do you accept that Maddow is more likely to be criticised by her audience for a factually incorrect but ideologically pleasing statement, than is Tucker Carlson? Because that's what the facts show. Fox was losing revenue when it pursued more mainstream narratives in relation to Trump, and gained that revenue back when they became more partisan, butt he same was not true of the left. Left-partisan sources and audiences were as likely to share stories about perceived scandals with Clinton as were right-partisans, but right-partisans shared virtually nothing critical of Trump. You could arrive in the polling booth in 2016 having consumed a diet of right-partisan media (especially Fox and Sinclair) and be unaware that Trump was a serial fraudster with a history of sexual assault. I think most Fox viewers even now don't accept that he violated campaign finance law with payments to women, or that he actively welcomed Russian overtures, as Mueller shows, or that he obstructed justice, as Mueller shows.

Do feel free to prove me wrong. Guy (help!) 18:13, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Interesting questions! I don't think any "prove me wrong" proof is available. Neither you, I, or the thoughtful right wingers who are biased for team Red are provably/obviously wrong or stupid.

Is Maddow is more likely to be criticized by her audience for a factually incorrect but ideologically pleasing statement than Tucker Carlson? I think yes, but the key phrase is "by her audience". Right Left wing audiences tend to be far more critical and less accepting of total bullshit. There are batshit insane liberal websites, but none of them have anywhere near the audience that Infowars has.

On the other hand, the mainstream media is pretty much the opposite; they criticize factually incorrect claims from the right far more than they do when the left does it. Or they selectively separate the claims from Team Blue but not from Team Red. Every mainstream report about global warming conspiracy theories emphasizes that they are largely a right-wing phenomena, but mainstream reports on antivax and GMO conspiracy theories consistently fail to mention that they are largely a left-wing phenomena. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:27, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Guy Macon, you've got a typo above. You inadvertently wrote "Right wing audiences..." when you meant to write "Left wing...", at least that's what research and statistics show. Left-wing sources tend to self-correct, unlike right-wing sources. That's because left-wingers are generally higher educated, tend to use fact-checkers, consume a much wider variety of sources (right-wingers use Fox News and little else), and then their better critical thinking skills and knowledge of contrary evidence leads them to reject outright bullshit much quicker than right-wingers.

Yes. that was a typo. I just fixed it. Thanks! As I said, batshit insane left wing sources do exist, but have nowhere near the audience of something like (spit!) Infowars. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:21, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Both sides might initially believe something that confirms their biases, but left-wingers aren't in an isolating information bubble, so they self-correct fairly quickly. That's about the viewers and readers. The sources are very different too. Left-wing sources criticize each others mistakes brutally, whereas right-wing sources don't fact check well, and they pass on and amplify nonsense from each other. They rarely cricize other right-wing sources.

Trump has told his base to not trust fact checkers or believe the "fake news", thus isolating them in a right-wing bubble. They don't even realize they need to self-correct. Also, the left-wing doesn't have the equivalent of Conservapedia. I suspect they use Wikipedia, which requires RS and that both sides of the story is told.

Much of the research on this is found at the non-partisan Pew Research Center. Start at Political Polarization & Media Habits. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:10, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Guy Macon, There are indeed thoughtful right-wingers. George Will, for example. But if you look at them case by case, what you find is that they are mainly deserting the Republican Party, or at least deserting the hyper-partisan right wing media.

But that is an aside to the core question, which is as I outlined above: there is an asymmetric polarisation of partisan media, because left-partisan media suffers reputational and thus financial damage if it perpetuates falsehoods, whereas right-partisan media suffers damage if it publishes accurate stories that run counter to ideology. Do you see any parallels to this story in reporting by Maddow during the Obama presidency?

Want to bet five bucks that Chris Wallace follows Shep Smith soon? Guy (help!) 22:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Someone who is rooting for Team Red might respond that at Fox news there was disagreement about how to handle criticism of Trump but that at MSNBC criticism of Obama or Hillary never makes it on air. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about internal political battles at various media outlets, and have no intention of researching them, so I just go along with whatever the consensus is at RSN about what sources are reliable for a specific claim. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:49, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

@Atsme: Again, I'm not looking for intros, I'm looking for something concrete. Do you have concrete comparatives, investigative pieces or peer-reviewed studies on this question, or not? François Robere (talk) 12:49, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi, FR - I have said all I'm going to say about this subject. If you require more than the high quality diffs I've already provided, may I recommend searching the archives for former discussions about the topic? I believe you will find the concrete evidence you're looking for in the consensus that was obtained time and time again by the community. Another friendly tip - it truly does help to conduct research from the perspective of the opposition. Happy editing! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:54, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Four days ago you said that as a former independent CNN field producer many years ago, I don't take a position that I cannot back-up with facts, and suggested a bit of educational reading material that speaks to your question: two general critiques of "mainstream media", an introductory piece on bias, a piece on European media, and later an item on Fox's financial success. Neither of these is a "concrete comparatives, investigative piece or peer-reviewed study" on the relative veracity, reliability and ideological or political slant of American media outlets. Cheers. François Robere (talk) 16:05, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I've tried to be helpful by responding to your questions, but I am working on another topic now, and find myself pressed for time. A simple Google search may help you find the results you seek. Regarding 3 of the sources I cited above: Understanding bias was published by American Press Institute, a national 501(c)3 nonprofit educational organization, affiliated with News Media Alliance. The Board of News Media Alliance. CJR - Columbia Journalism Review - this link and and this one - CJR has been published by Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism since 1961. All are high quality RS, and they do address the issues you've brought up. Critical thinking required - you will find answers to your questions in each of the articles published by the sources. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:45, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I've got 80 sources on this, Atsme, I'm not looking to "Google" some more. I'm looking for you to show me some sources that support what you're claiming, and you're not delivering. Until you do, I can't take your claims seriously.

As for CJR - here's some more bits. The first and the third are particularly strong, based on scholars and on a good piece of investigative journalism, respectively; the second is based on research by an NGO, and the fourth gives you the general gist of how Fox is seen in media circles:

1. Nelson, Jacob L. (2019-01-23). "What is Fox News? Researchers want to know". Columbia Journalism Review. Then there's the question of what scholars should do if and when an outlet ceases to be partisan and crosses the line into propaganda. Though scholars like Searles assert that the categorization of Fox as a partisan news outlet akin to MSNBC continues to be accurate, others think that kind of comparison no longer applies. As Feldman explains, "While MSNBC is certainly partisan and traffics in outrage and opinion, its reporting—even on its prime-time talk shows—has a much clearer relationship with facts than does coverage on Fox." Princeton University Assistant Professor Andy Guess echoes this point: "There's no doubt that primetime hosts on Fox News are increasingly comfortable trafficking in conspiracy theories and open appeals to nativism, which is a major difference from its liberal counterparts."
2. Altman, Anna (2019-02-14). "Matt Gertz tracks how Fox News manipulates Trump". Columbia Journalism Review. Fox knows that Trump is watching, and the network steers coverage to speak to him directly. By December, Fox's "infotainers," as [Matt] Gertz likes to call them, won out, and urged the president to "stay strong," feeding him cherry-picked poll stats that showed he was "winning" the shutdown. Today, Gertz feels confident that Trump will declare a national emergency to build his border wall, because that's what Fox has been repeatedly telling him to do.
3. Allsop, Jon (2019-03-11). "Fox News draws renewed scrutiny—and outrage". Columbia Journalism Review.
4. Allsop, Jon (2019-10-14). "What Shep Smith's exit says about Fox News". Columbia Journalism Review. The news-opinion divide... may often have been more smoke and mirrors than an actual firewall, but the appearance of one was of critical importance... The disappearance of [Shepard] Smith—who had been with Fox ever since [Roger] Ailes founded the network, in 1996—further erodes that perception, perhaps more so than any individual event of the post-Ailes era.

Cheers. François Robere (talk) 13:28, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Reboot to specifically address Fox News (talk shows)

It would have saved a lot of confusion above if I had been more specific and referred to Fox News (talk shows) as discussed at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. Sorry about that.

The specific news department does occasionally disagree with the talk show hosts and tell the truth. Unfortunately, some editors believe the talk show hosts and disbelieve the news department when the news department corrects them, and then those editors defend Fox News as a whole, as evidenced by their repetition and defense of the lies told by Trump which Fox News defends and pushes.

We need to completely deprecate the talk shows. THAT is what I want to see happen. Can anyone here seriously disagree that Hannity, Ingraham, Tucker, Beck, Levin, Dobbs, et al, never debunk Trump's lies, but push them as a rule, not as an exception? (If a specific talk show consistently tells the truth, we can make an exception for them.) -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:41, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I've been thinking about a different but related suggestion. Too often we are dealing with sources that blend news and commentary. Some sources kindly say "this is an OpEd" while others, are far less clear where they are simply reporting the facts vs where they are offering interpretations. Many of the sources that are considered to be moderate to far left or right are there not because they disagree with the basic facts but based on what they say the facts mean. The talk shows are largely opinion based commentary but are given a handy "OpEd" label. The same is true of many parts of stories from sources like The Huffington Post, Mother Jones and etc. Perhaps if we just acknowledge that the lines aren't clearly black and white we could start to treat the sources (from left to right) as commentary rather than fact more often and we could avoid some of the debates. Springee (talk) 17:48, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

We deal with opinions by attributing them, but when they are counterfactual, we give them less weight, often to the point of ignoring them. If those lies and conspiracy theories become notable, then we cover them. Sources that have a habit of repeating lies or treating them as facts should be deprecated because they are obviously not "reliable" in even the most basic sense. We do not use unreliable sources. Even lies must be sourced to RS.

Most of Fox News talking heads are engaging in disinformation, as Trump generally does. He has repeated some falsehoods so many times that he has effectively engaged in disinformation. Sources which do the same should be treated like we treat him. We do not cite Trump for facts for the following reason: "The president is possibly the single most unreliable source for any claim of fact ever to grace the pages of WP." -- MPants 04:57, 2 October 2018 (UTC) I couldn't have said it better, and editors who believe RS agree with those immortal words by MPants. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:41, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Which all takes me back to the idea of why dont we just treat all news media as fundamentally not reliable for any breaking news story.Slatersteven (talk) 17:51, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

The lesser reliability of breaking news stories is addressed at WP:RSBREAKING. I think it's unlikely for there to be consensus on a measurable definition of "breaking news" (e.g. number of days since the event). The {{Current}} template informs readers that "Information may change rapidly as the event progresses, and initial news reports may be unreliable", and should be added to affected articles. — Newslinger talk 18:26, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. We tend to wait a few days for things to settle down. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:45, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. François Robere (talk) 22:58, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Waiting a few days really isn't enough time for validation or verification of accuracy in subjective, politically motivated news reports. Investigations continue in the Russia conspiracy theory in an effort to determine exactly what led to the Mueller investigation and what role the Trump-Russia dossier played in the grand scheme. The only conclusion to date is that the Mueller investigation did not confirm what the Democrat's theorized about Trump-Russia collusion. Oh, and I linked to Rasmussen's "political commentary" because of what was suggested above. Non-broadcast sites appear to be more upfront about marking their op-eds, political commentary, etc. although a few still falsely present political commentary as news. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 02:00, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

"Investigations continue in the Russia conspiracy theory in an effort to determine exactly what led to the Mueller investigation and what role the Trump-Russia dossier played in the grand scheme." ???

Those investigations are part of a cover-up and distraction of the proven role of Russia in the election. It was Russia, not Ukraine, which interfered in the election. The Dossier's role is also well-known. We also know very clearly "what led to the Mueller investigation". The Dossier came after the Crossfire Hurricane investigation had started. Already in 2015, the CIA was receiving evidence of wrongdoing by Trump campaign people and other associates, but it wasn't until Papadopoulos role was told by the Australians that they could start the investigation. THAT is what led to the Russian investigation, which was subsumed into the Mueller investigation. Failure to believe this narrative is a failure to believe what RS tell us (read our articles and believe them!!) and, instead, believing what unreliable sources say. That is a serious deficiency, to put it mildly. There is a term for that here, but my sanction forbids me from saying it. Others may say it.

Current investigations are just part of the Trump/Russian attempts to smear the Dossier, and those who still consider this all a "Russia conspiracy theory" are refusing to accept what RS have told us in their crystal ball hope that future cover-up attempts will succeed in rewriting history and will whitewash Trump and his administration of their collusion with Russia. They won't accept the fact that the Russian election interference happened with Trump's full cooperation and desire, and that is not a "conspiracy theory".

Fortunately, we have honest public servants (some Trump appointees) who dare to tell the truth, and now Trump's false Ukrainian corruption conspiracy theory is being exposed by the honest people who were in the middle of it. The testimony today was damning. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

BullRangifer, I don't think there is anything we know "clearly" at this point in time. It is still under investigation. I think The Nation laid out the Mueller report clearly - they refer to the Trump-Russia collusion allegations as a "conspiracy theory" - we simply say what RS say: "As a result, Mueller’s report provides the opposite of what Russiagate promoters led their audiences to expect: Rather than detailing a sinister collusion plot with Russia, it presents what amounts to an extended indictment of the conspiracy theory itself." As for the behind-closed-doors impeachment inquisition inquiry, it lacks transparency and credibility because of the partisanship behind it. The reporting by the same RS that pushed the Trump-Russia conspiracy theory proved nothing, much the same way nothing has been proven about the inquisition inquiry. You even criticized the NYTimes for sloppy reporting in the recent past. I'm of the mind that we should continue exercising caution and more closely adhere to WP:RECENTISM in an effort to avoid POV speculation. It will all come out in the wash. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Atsme, you've conflated The Nation as a news outlet, with The Nation's opinion columnists: columnists for any media are not considered RS. You are quoting "opinion" as if it were "reliable journalism". From W:Reliable sources: "There is consensus that The Nation is generally reliable. Most editors consider The Nation a partisan source whose statements should be attributed. The publication's opinion pieces should be handled with the appropriate guideline." ToolmakerSteve (talk) 21:23, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi, ToolmakerSteve. I think perhaps you misunderstood my comment. I simply shared an opinion about the article and quoted a statement they published while informally demonstrating the attribution process. This is a discussion forum, not an article so I don’t understand your criticism and if it’s not the latter, then I’m confused about the point you’re trying to make. The Nation is described on WP as “covering progressive political and cultural news, opinion, and analysis.” If you disagree with that description, may I suggest raising the issue on the TP of that article? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:05, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Atsme, I find your comment profoundly concerning. We absolutely do know some things. The Mueller report found evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia (i.e. offers the campaign "welcomed" and in some cases reciprocated, including providing internal polling data to Russians) and documented several instances of obstruction of justice, including all three elements of obstruction. Mueller confirmed this to the House during his own testimony. The "oranges" investigation is blatantly pretextual and is founded on the "deep state" conspiracy theory, its bastard child "spygate", and latterly the false claim that Joseph Mifsud was a deep state asset rather than a Russian one. If you genuinely believe the Fox News view of the "oranges" of the Mueller investigation then I have to question your competence to opine on sourcing in the area of politics. The claims have been investigated by the Senate and the Inspector-General and found to be bullshit: the FBI investigation started because Australia reported Papadopoulos' drunken ramblings to their Ambassador. We can be reasonably confident from current reporting that MI6 also reported suspicious links between Russia and Trump. It is not a surprise that this wasn't well handled, there has never been a situation before where a neck-and-neck candidate in a presidential race has suddenly shown evidence of being an asset of a hostile foreign power. Trump's campaign manager was an unregistered foreign agent. His National Security adviser was an unregistered foreign agent. Rick Gates was also acting on behalf of a foreign power. As was Sam Patten. Have you not read the articles on Papadopoulos, Flynn, Manafort, Gates, Cohen, Kilimnik, the IRA? And of course Butina and Giuliani and Parnas and Fruman and Pecker and Stone and the rest? Even if Trump were innocent, the profound shadiness of his inner circle would be ample grounds for suspicion.

The Nation calls the Trump/Russia thing a "conspiracy theory". No reality-based source does. Mueller documented approaches to the Trump campaign from the GRU that were welcomed. It documents some responses. It shows that at no point did the campaign do what it should have done (and was required to do by law), which is to contact the FBI. The fact that Russia interfered with the US election is reliably established. With the exception of a fatuous "report" by Devin Nunes, every single investigation has backed that up. Mueller, the Senate, the intelligence community, the Pentagon, the House once not under Tea Party control, the DoJ, Jim Mattis, Mike Pompeo at State, and of course multiple foreign intelligence services including MI6. Nobody disputes this other than Team Trump.

The objective facts about the Steele dossier are: Christopher Steele was a long-time British intelligence operative, he ran the MI6 Russia desk from 2006-2009, and is respected by both British and US intelligence. His report was originally commissioned as opposition research by Republicans, then taken up by Democrats after Republicans dropped the contract. It's likely Steele sold it to the Dems because he saw that it contained some bad facts for Trump. The FBI used it in a cautious and appropriate way: their FISA warrant applications contained extensive footnotes informing the court of the nature of the report and its funding sources. The FISA warrants were not based solely on Steele. The FBI investigation into the Trump campaign was not started by the Steele dossier, it was prompted by reports from Australian and likely also British intelligence of unusual contacts between Papdopoulos and the Russians (and possibly other contacts). The fixation on Steele has worked well for the right, and they are repeating it again now with the "whistleblower", but in the real world this is exactly the same as a gang of bank robbers complaining that the person who reported overhearing them plotting worked for the bank or the police. Almost all FISA warrants are approved, and the FBI can investigate any report they deem credible. Pointing at the "oranges" to draw attention away form the extremely damning facts elucidated by the resulting investigation is a political gambit, and any competent Wikipedian should recognise it as such because the facts are by now so well known. Unless you only read right-wing media. But right-wing media are disconnected form the reality-based media these days (cf. Network Propaganda), and it is a massive problem if an editor lives in that bubble.

Trump (rightly) believes that the fact Russia interfered in the 2016 election and the fact Mueller discovered evidence of collusion and multiple counts of obstruction of justice, undermines the legitimacy of his presidency. Trump probably realises that he did indeed lose the popular vote by the largest margin of any elected president since the modern two-party system began, and that his electoral college victory depended on a total of 77,000 votes in three states that were heavily targeted by Russian social media influence campaigns using data stolen by Cambridge Analytica and internal polling provided to him by Manafort. Moscow Mitch certainly knows, and that's presumably why he is determined not to pass legislation to protect the 2020 election.

The Barr investigation is a terrifying abuse of executive power which would, on its own, have led to impeachment of any Democratic president who tried to pull a stunt like that. Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch talked for a couple of minutes on the tarmac at an airport and the conservative media completely lost its shit, Trump has sent his attorney general to travel the world to pressure foreign allies into supporting a revisionist history to support his own reputation, and to pursue his political enemies. Guy (help!) 16:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Edit conflict with JzG.

User:Atsme, so you continue to refuse to believe the RS we use in our articles, and instead are pushing Trump's counter-narrative/conspiracy theories?

Atsme, we DO know "what led to the Mueller investigation".

1. It started when the intelligence agencies from eight European allies began to record very troubling conversations between Trump assets and Russian assets as they planned how to disrupt the election. They were just performing their routine surveillance of known Russian spies, and suddenly lots of Trump people were recorded talking to them and scheming. Those secret meetings were myriad, held all over Europe, and kept very secret. The Trump campaign has denied and lied about all of them. That's classic conspiratorial behavior.
2. Those eight agencies started to report their findings to the CIA and FBI in 2015. (Even further back, in 2013 Trump was already discussing his plans with Russians, not Americans, to run for president in 2016, and we have evidence that already then the Russians told him very publicly (Facebook and Twitter) that they would support his candidacy. The illegal and unpatriotic plans to disrupt our democratic elections were in the works for a long time before 2016.)
3. As this information from the secret meetings accumulated, the CIA and FBI were slow to respond. The CIA is not allowed to surveil Americans, and the FBI needed more proof. They were waiting for conclusive proof that these people were not acting on their own, but were informing the Trump campaign.
4. That proof finally came when the Australian government reported about the Papadopoulos meetings which proved that he was reporting back to the campaign, acting on their behalf, and that the campaign had insider prior knowledge about the Russian hacking of the DNC and about how the Russians got the stolen mails to WikiLeaks and planned to release them at the most destructive time during the election. 5-6 days later the FBI opened the Crossfire Hurricane investigation into the ongoing and widespread Russian interference.
5. Much later the Dossier added some information, but the FBI only believed it because they had other sources which could independently confirm what the Dossier's sources reported.
6. Later that Crossfire Hurricane investigation was subsumed into the Mueller investigation.
7. Even Repuplican leaders and the Nunes Report confirm this narrative.
8. THIS is the narrative which RS tell us.
9. THIS is what we write in our articles.

Atsme, what part of this narrative do you not believe? (Feel free to use the numbers.) How can you edit here while holding such counter-RS views? Why do you keep pushing such views here? I thought you were sanctioned and warned about this path you're on. Pushing this narrative seems to violate your sanction. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:37, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

BR, what you know is what the media published, and that's all we're supposed to know, but keep in mind, we must adhere to NPOV when making our selections in whatever RS we cite. As for my concern about RECENTISM, John Durham is currently investigating the investigators regarding the Trump-Russia investigation, and it's not just Fox News reporting it. When Durham's report is finalized, that is when we will know what really happened, but RSN is not the forum for us to discuss politics. I'll repeat once more that I will honor whatever consensus says about the reliability of Fox News, so call your RfC. Happy editing! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:46, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

NPOV is not the average between reality-based sources and bullshit. You say "what the media published", but that's not where we get these facts from, or at least not entirely. There are court transcripts and findings of fact, reports by US and other intelligence agencies, by the Senate and House committees, inspectors-general, and the Mueller report itself. The only holdouts are Team Trump, including Fox News. And Fox are pushing the manufactured counter-narrative (bluntly, propaganda) on most of this. That's a big reason why Fox is not reliable for anything other than ABOUTSELF at this point. I refer you again to Network Propaganda, an excellent book recommended to me by Mike Godwin. Guy (help!) 18:42, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

what you know is what the media published And what we know about the universe is what scientists publish. That's how it works. We summarize what was published, not argue with it and not conjecture on what might be published at some point in the future. Guy and BR's comments follow that principle; yours very much doesn't. And no, the Washington Examiner is not an RS. François Robere (talk) 19:31, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Atsme, the Washington Examiner is not a RS, but a purveyor and backer of the counterfactual narrative pushed by Trump, his allies, and Russia, the enemy of YOUR country, a narrative which you believe and push here. They are lying to you. It's not right that you read them or cite them. We should only use and support what RS say.

I have described the sequence of events which "led to the Mueller investigation" (your words). What part of that narrative don't you believe and why? You are evading. I suspect it's because you don't believe what RS say because you base your beliefs on what unreliable sources say, and you aren't allowed to use them in articles here. You shouldn't use them on talk pages either. If I have misrepresented things you've said, then please explain. I can only go by what you write and the sources you do use, and they are invariably unreliable sources.

The ideas you voice are only found in fringe and unreliable sources, and now you're defending them right here, on the "Reliable notices noticeboard", of all places, so this conversation is extremely relevant to discuss HERE. I fear you are being misled. We love you as a person, but we are concerned for your well-being and your influence as an editor. This is sad. Please clarify. Your defense of unreliable sources at the "Reliable sources Noticeboard" is sad and alarming.

Above, Guy pointed out the problematic nature of your "opine[ing] on sourcing in the area of politics", and that problem needs to be dealt with. It's a violation of your sanction. This must stop. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:25, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

I mean Washington Examiner is a RS for certain things. Also the three of you really need to chill out. PackMecEng (talk) 00:53, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

PackMecEng, "There is no consensus on the reliability of the Washington Examiner, but there is consensus that it should not be used to substantiate exceptional claims. Almost all editors consider the Washington Examiner a partisan source and believe that statements from this publication should be attributed." It's a tabloid owned by a cult, handle with extreme caution, and the statements referenced fall solidly with the area of unreliability. As to chill out, well, maybe. Someone we think is nice, is seriously advocating that Fox News is a RS based on references to right-wing propaganda. That's a concern, especially given her history of advocating John Birch Society fringe nonsense at G. Edward Griffin. Network Propaganda is a very detailed analysis of the influences on Fox content, that shows why our historical acceptance of Fox should not persist. As a data point, Shep Smith has left. He was the only reliably mainstream voice on Fox. Mainstream is not the opposite of conservative, mainstream is the group of sources that collectively share a commitment to empirical reality. Many of us who love America are terrified of the current situation, where the President freely mixes fact and fiction and a substantial proportion of the US population, according to the media they are tracked as watching and sharing, have minimal exposure to factual coverage of important issues of the day, and extensive exposure to distorted or outright false versions. Easily a third of the US is being told that literal conspiracy theories are the true explanation, when every form of evidence usually considered reliable (intelligence agencies, IG reports, court findings of fact etc) says the opposite. That cannot be allowed to creep into Wikipedia content. Guy (help!) 12:37, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

In these post-truth Trumpian political times, "fringe editors" often have a strong Trump bias and point of view because they adopt Trump's open animosity toward RS, and believe his untruths and the fake news stories circulated in his support and attacking those he does not like, especially Obama and Clinton.

These editors consider the RS we use to be fake news. Their bias and point of view are directly opposed to our RS guideline. Because these editors are so at odds with RS, which are the basis of all editing here, they should be monitored carefully. They cannot be trusted. They often create problems and disruption because they imbibe these unreliable sources. Note that not all Trump voters are like this, but the hardcore supporters are, and a few of them edit here. -- BullRangifer (talk) 14:23, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes that is what RSP says no consensus, which is not the same as not a RS. This is not something that is being used in an article either so again no idea why you think reliability in general is an issue here. Finally for both of you, this is not a forum for your personal views. PackMecEng (talk) 15:26, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I will agree that there are a lot of new editors or IPs that come in with "left-leaning sources are bad" and challenge established RSes, which we're never going to do; they are RSes for the reasons defined in WP:RS and having some bias is not a reason to dismiss these. But that said: I personally have zero love of Trump, and absolutely do not agree on the "fake news" claims made. But I will stand behind the fact that with Trump in office, many of the quality sources have slipped in a lot more bias towards the left which, when coupled with continued growth of opinionated journalism, makes distinguishing good news articles from op-eds disguised as news articles in some of these RSes tricky, and we should at least be aware of this matter. CNN is one of the worst offenders, but the WaPost is not too far behind in that they have blatant dislike of Trump across the board, at least when scanning through their headline articles. It doesn't make these RSes any worse in RSes but we should consider how a piece is framed on a case-by-case basis to determine if it is actually trying to just report impartially or throwing its media weight around. And this is something difficult to convince editors to consider: there's a lot of editors that go "If it is an RS and not labeled Op-Ed, everything said should be treated at face value." This is where things like RECENTISM needs to be kept in mind. Today is not the right time to try to be making encyclopedic articles that are based on judgement calls made by the media and instead should more closely stick to facts, and only well after Trump is out of office should we start really considering how media opinion of him comes about. These issues, which have been validly brought up in discussions, should not be swept into the same cries from the new/IP editors that want to make out left-leaning sources as "fake news".

At the same time, the Trump situation has made the bias in right-leaning RSes far more apparent (as in the case of Fox News here) who are often lock-step in with Trump's claims, so that's even more important to distinguish Fox's actual journalism (which is normally fine, they are an RS by definition) from anything with their talking-heads programs. --Masem (t) 15:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, and the NYTimes just published a bit of breaking news that aligns with some of the FoxNews predictions. IG will be publishing his report soon re: the FISA investigation, and it will be interesting to see how the media spins presents all this news as time progresses. I’m certainly in no hurry to rush to judgment, especially when all we have to go on is breaking news and/or news sources to build this encyclopedia. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Atsme, No, the NYT does not "align with Fox News predictions". Fox is promoting the fiction that the Russia inquiry was an inside job by Democrats. NYT is reporting that Trump has deployed the DoJ to pursue the people he accuses of being responsible for the investigation, using criminal charges.

This is in line with his widely-reported attempts to identify the Ukraine whistleblower, who he would undoubtedly target as he has done McCabe, Ohr and the rest.

But do feel free to show me examples where Fox has pointed out that using the DoJ to pursue perceived political enemies is wildly inappropriate, as identified by sources quoted by the NYT and others. Guy (help!) 17:49, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Guy, when you quote something i said, please quote it accurately (my bold) “... and the NYTimes just published a bit of breaking news that aligns with some of the FoxNews predictions.” ^Atsme _Talk 📧 19:41, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Atsme, But it doesn't. And even if it did, it would be a coincidence: Fox News' conspiracist bullshit predicting something that the reality of terrifying abuse of executive power also predicts. Guy (help!) 23:07, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

@Masem: Having a lot of headlines that look "anti-X" doesn't necessarily imply bias - it can just as well stem from "X" being a "bad" subject. That's why these things are measured comparatively and not by us. American media is well-studied, and according to RS Fox is aberrant in the media landscape. François Robere (talk) 12:12, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Understanding shifting biases is important but as I said, bias alone does not enter into whether something is an RS or not. Nor do I disagree with the stance that any Fox News talking head problem should be avoided like the plague as a source here, and that if we can get coverage from beyond Fox News' news desk coverage (which still meets the requirements of a RS), that would be better. But on the talking head issue, the same problems in talking head works at other RSes (op-eds, analysis pieces, etc.) are also apparent with their bias, and we absolutely should not be using such pieces, at least when discussing a very recent thing, because of the bias they exhibit. The reason to avoid Fox News talking heads has several more problems atop the bias and RECENTISM (eg promotion of false or questionable info), but any talking head opinion show or piece is trouble within WP for an ongoing topic particularly in the current media landscape. --Masem (t) 14:29, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Masem, You are correct, but you have missed an important point. I refer again to Network Propaganda. This details negative effects Fox was experiencing by pursuing mainstream narratives around Trump (e.g. reporting on his profoundly shady business career), the effect this had on shares, its loss of social media share - and hence click-based ad revenue - to Breitbart, and its switch during 2016 to uncritical Trump support, which then saw its social shares returning.

Compare the following:

Maddow is biased. She admits it. If she makes a factually incorrect statement and fails to correct is, she suffers reputational damage with her audience. Liberals consume a wider range of media than conservatives, and tend to value factual accuracy even wen it conflicts with preferred narratives.

Carlson is biased. He doesn't admit it. If he makes a factually correct but ideologically inconvenient statement, he suffers criticism from Fox's one-man Nielsen ratings. If he makes a factually incorrect but ideologically acceptable statement he suffers no penalty at all. He might be fact-checked by the mainstream media, but his audience, for the most part, never see that.

The evidence very clearly shows systematic and asymmetric polairisation and bias in the media. The Wall Street Journal is a right-leaning mainstream RS. Fos is not mainstream any more, it is part of the right wing media bubble and cannot be trusted unless corroborated by a mainstream source (in which case why use Fox?). Guy (help!) 17:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I just carefully read the two comments above, each by someone who I respect and almost always agree with. Then I read them again, and really considered them. I have to go with Masem on this one, and I do not think he/she missed any important points. This may, of course simply be because of my unconscious bias. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:58, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

@Masem: bias alone does not enter into whether something is an RS or not Of course it does. What is "bias"? It's the tendency of an outlet to sway from objective or meaningful coverage of real events. "Bias" taken to the extreme becomes "propaganda", at which point it's no longer useful for us. Fox has been dubbed "propaganda" by multiple RS. We cannot go counter to RS. François Robere (talk) 12:56, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Bias is not a reason to reject a source, that is explicitly stated in policy.Slatersteven (talk) 13:00, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Bias ALONE is not a reason, but extreme bias certainly is a factor. When it becomes propaganda, consistent failure to fact check, repetition and pushing of Trump's proven lies, and even providing him with false narratives which he immediately tweets, then we're dealing with a very unreliable source which fails our requirements for being considered a RS.

We are talking about Fox News talk show hosts, not the News division. Keep that in mind. We often think that Trump invents these lies, but there are numerous times where it is evident he is watching Fox and Friends or Hannity and they create a new lie and/or false narrative, and he then tweets it and starts using it, often before the show has even ended. Fox News is writing our foreign policy. These Fox News talk show hosts literally manufacture false narratives as a feature, not a bug. They should be deprecated. They do not fact check or self-correct. -- BullRangifer (talk) 14:16, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Maybe, but the point made was that bias alone could be a reason, not it has to go beyond bias to inaccuracy. Whilst is may be that Fox news talk shows may well fit that I do not think it is clear cut enough (are all of them this bad, most?) to have a blanket ban.Slatersteven (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Slatersteven, they are that bad. (See my response to Masem immediately below.) If there is an exceptional talk show host or show which doesn't fit this pattern, we can make a specific exception for them, as they are an exception which proves the rule.

I think we can agree that EXTREME bias alone, because it ignores, hides, or totally distorts facts, makes a source so unreliable that we must deprecate it, especially when they do this on a consistent basis. We should not use misinformation sources. In the current political climate, we see this manifested as a consistent pushing of Trump's lies, without fact-checking or pushing back, but rather serving as a bullhorn to magnify the deception. I can't think of any Fox News talk shows where this isn't the pattern, but correct me if I'm wrong. We'll make an exception for such a show or host. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:37, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Extreme bias should not be a reason to rule out a source, but it should be a consider to ask "are they fact-checking? are they in editorial control?" Those reasons are sufficient to say a source is not an RS, which comes as a result of extreme bias, but that bias is not the reason to block the source. --Masem (t) 16:52, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Masem. I fully agree. There are some very biased sources which stick close to the truth, but they are rare. It is only when their bias causes them to consistently subvert the truth that we should take action and deprecate them. The same principle applies to editors. Editors are free to believe whatever they want, but when their beliefs cause them to violate policy, push POV found in unreliable sources, use unreliable sources, and/or denigrate facts found in RS, it is THEN that we should start using topic bans. It is not the belief, in and of itself, that we censure, it is the actions which "come as a result of extreme bias" that cause us to take action. We're on the same page. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:42, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I would mention the news division as well - it's far from being the best source out there, and shouldn't be used where better sources are available. See for example here - 60 pages full of 4 months worth of errors and possible lies ("mistruths", if you'd prefer a euphemism) from Fox News news anchors. François Robere (talk) 17:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree. It is still the exception when the news division pushes back against Trump's lies, and the last time that Shep Smith did it, Carlson criticized him and the leadership did not give Smith the backing he should have gotten, thus revealing the agenda of the Fox News network as a whole. That was the last straw for him and he left Fox News. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:45, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Others have pointed out, but there can be extremely biased sources that do do fact checking and do make announced error corrections, all fundamental parts of determining whether something is an RS, and thus would still be an RS. But at that point, now it does become an UNDUE factor. It is just that experience tells us that there actually very few works at these points as bias often tends towards extremism when it is that strong, so fact-checking goes out the door to support that bias. This is why it is important to stress that the Fox News journalism side, which is pro-Trump in general, does do all that, maybe not with the rigor of the Old Grey Mare, but its there. I'd opt to use another source if there's that option, but I would not reject a Fox News article (not op-ed) otherwise. --Masem (t) 14:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Masem, what you say does apply to the strictly News dept, but not at all to the opinions and talk shows. They are consistently pushing misinformation which they do not correct. Instead they double down on it. Therefore they, not the News dept., should be deprecated. If there is an exceptional talk show host or show which doesn't fit this pattern, we can make a specific exception for them, as they are an exception which proves the rule. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:37, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I am in full agreement on all of Fox's talking head shows on the general principle that they are known to push falsehoods. Never been a question. But I'm speaking in the general broad case to keep in mind beyond just Fox. --Masem (t) 16:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Masem, It's more than that. See my comments above. Fox suffers damage if it publishes reality that contradicts Trump, whereas mainstream sources suffer damage if they don't. Guy (help!) 00:26, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

It is not like censorship ala China if that is what you are getting, nor a state-sponsored work subject to gov't review. Fox has decided to stick to its pro-Trump slate on its own volition, and would only be harming its image among its viewers if they went with a anti-Trump piece. That's the same with any biased source. What is harmed is public awareness when the media as individual entities "pick sides" and try to play as persuaders rather than reporters. This is 100% what the Fox talking heads do, but this is also what the op-ed pages of most mainstream sources do and what opinionated journalism does as well. They don't lose - we do as the consumers of news and in our cases, as people trying to write up articles of permanence for these topics. --Masem (t) 01:45, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

I think we can all agree that statements on opinion news shows, just as in newspaper op-ed pages, cannot be cited as facts. If nothing else, the commentators are presumably getting their facts from a journalistic, reportorial source, and that's what we should be citing instead. So the evening Fox News broadcast, like The CBS Evening News etc., would be WP:RS for facts, but not something like a Sean Hannity or a Rachel Maddow opinion/commentary show. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:10, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Republicans ‘Are Having Trouble With the Facts’ Says Fox News’ Chris Wallace:

"Fox News’ Chris Wallace was at it again on Friday, filling the void of truth-telling on a “news” network that defends President Donald Trump regardless of the facts....What Wallace is doing is important. Of course, he’s only stating obvious facts, but with Shep Smith gone from the “news” network viewers are mostly left with wall-to-wall Trump propaganda. So, although Wallace’s honesty should not stand out, unfortunately it does. He’s flying solo and because of that, he deserves credit."

Just sayin'... -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:43, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

@Masem: This is 100% what the Fox talking heads do, but this is also what the op-ed pages of most mainstream sources do and what opinionated journalism does as well No, it's not. FN is unfortonutely unique in the American media landscape:

• Lauren Feldman, Associate Professor of Journalism and Media Studies at Rutgers University: “While MSNBC is certainly partisan and traffics in outrage and opinion, its reporting—even on its prime-time talk shows—has a much clearer relationship with facts than does coverage on Fox.”
• Andy Guess, Assistant Professor of Politics and Public affairs at Princeton University: “There’s no doubt that primetime hosts on Fox News are increasingly comfortable trafficking in conspiracy theories and open appeals to nativism, which is a major difference from its liberal counterparts.”
• A.J. Bauer, Visiting Assistant Professor of Media, Culture, and Communication at NYU, contrasts “esteemed outlets like the New York Times” with “an outlet (Fox) with dubious ethical standards and loose commitments to empirical reality.”
• Daniel Kreiss, Associate Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill's School of Media and Journalism: “Fox’s appeal lies in the network’s willingness to explicitly entwine reporting and opinion in the service of Republican, and white identity.” (emphasis mine)
• Christopher Browning, Professor Emeritus of History at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, refers to Fox as "privatized propaganda".
• Nicole Hemmer, Assistant Professor of Presidential Studies at the University of Virginia, refers to FN as “the closest we’ve come to having state TV.”

That's not comparable to any other outlet. See here for a brief discussion of how other outlets treat "opinion journalism". François Robere (talk) 14:02, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

But again, focusing strictly on Fox News' journalism deck, not their talk shows or op-eds, there hasn't been any evidence of them not doing the job that we expect of an RS: FN's journalism has not made up facts (like Breitbart or Sun), they have editorial controls, and they have published corrections when wrong. Not to the rigor of the NYTimes, but for purposes of WP:RS, nothing else matters. I understand the appeal that FN's journalism desk sitting next to the hotbed of disinformation from their op-eds is a scary combination, and there are certainly signs that the news desk is locked into a pro-Trump appropriate to reporting, but as long as we are sticking to their journalism, there has been no sign of any inappropriate steps taken by them. Selective coverage and bias does not affect evaluation of RS directly. If FN journalism ever crosses that line, then we can rule them out as an RS. What is being made difficult here is trying to emphasis that we need to look and seperate the content generated by FN between its journalism and its op-ed/talk show areas. The broadcast network is near impossible to distinguish and I would never ever consider trying to use a video segment of FN for that (which to many of the articles you list out above, I would completely agree with how those sentiments apply. I've had to watch FN while at gyms and the like and I feel like it is outright propagada at times). But their website coverage is clearly split between news and op-en/etc, and when they are doing their journalism job, it's reasonably good journalism. --Masem (t) 14:23, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Masem, yes, there is a difference between the News desk and the talk shows, but this section is a "Reboot to specifically address Fox News (talk shows). It would have saved a lot of confusion above if I had been more specific and referred to Fox News (talk shows) as discussed at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. Sorry about that. The specific news department does occasionally disagree with the talk show hosts and tell the truth." Now that Shep Smith is gone, there is even less justification to give any positive rating.

What we need to do is to deprecate the talk shows. We already have separate ratings at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources:

• "Fox News (news and website)" is rated "Generally_reliable", with this caveat: "Editors are advised to exercise caution when using Fox News as a source for political topics, and to attribute statements of opinion." The website should not be included. It is unreliable.
• "Fox News (talk shows)" is rated "No consensus". That should be changed to "Deprecated", never use, even with atttribution". -- BullRangifer (talk) 01:32, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

BullRangifer (talk) 01:32, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Sources

Reliability vs UNDUE weight

We have been focused on the reliability of various news outlets, but perhaps we need to examine them from a different angle... that of undue weight. Specifically, does the way that Wikipedia uses news media give UNDUE weight to rumor and unsubstantiated opinion? Blueboar (talk) 14:55, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Excellent point, Blueboar. Such decisions are based primarily on one’s perspective and how closely an editor adheres to NPOV when choosing the RS to cite. I tend to favor pragmatic journalism in RS that publish all views without opinion/speculation. Of course, responsible editing can make that happen in their summary of the event, (facts only please), and if they do see fit to include a particular POV, do it according to our PAGs with in-text attribution, but also include any rebuttal (if there is one) so our readers can make their own determinations. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:14, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

To that, I would add the following. In my opinion, majority of POV disputes could be easily avoided if all sources used in some article are of the same level of reliability. Thus, if one viewpoint is supported by scholarly peer-reviewed publications, that means an article published in some local newspaper and authored by a person with zero credentials should not be accepted to support an alternative POV. That will easily deprive POV pushers of any tools to advance their POV: if one viewpoint is supported by the The American Historical Review article authored by a renown professor, it would be unacceptable to use the article from some local newspaper to support the opposite view.

In addition, I've just checked our policy, and it says that mainstream newspapers are considered reliable sources. It says nothing about newspapers in general, and that leads to some problems, because some users believe that, for example, any publication in any newspaper can be used, for example, in history related articles. Taking into account that many local newspapers have a tendency to publish questionable articles, we have a situation when Wikipedia de facto becomes a collection of various rumors. I suggest to move this discussion to the WP:V page, because it seems our policy needs some clarification.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:47, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

This is a real problem. I've been working on Michael Davitt, and a previous version of the article claimed, based on an article in the Scranton Times Tribune (Scranton, Pennsylvania) by a no-name, no-credential author, that Davitt had an influence on Gandhi's philosophy of nonviolence. As far as I can tell, this is an apocryphal story that spread on the Internet, as it isn't mentioned in multiple Gandhi biographies. However, there are some editors who would argue that as long as the information isn't explicitly contradicted it ought to be in the article, because the Tribune is a RS, and you can't cite a negative. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 19:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Blueboar, a good source will distinguish between fact and speculation. We should include fact, we should not include speculation - about living individuals especially - unless it is so overwhelmingly prominent that we can't ignore it. Guy (help!) 17:46, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I feel it should be pointed out that undue is about significant viewpoints, not accurate or qualified ones. Thus is 100 media RS say "X" we says X, unless better qualified sources say "X is not true".Slatersteven (talk) 13:38, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Sure, if 100 RS news outlets are all discussing X, then X is probably important enough for us to mention. The question is... when only one or two are discussing X, is it UNDUE for us to mention X? Blueboar (talk) 13:58, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Has to be case by case, hell we have whole articles based on 2 RS. Also what happens when you have 1 academic source and then 1 or 2 media sources reporting or discussing it? I think it is not black and white enough for some blanket rule.Slatersteven (talk) 14:24, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree it is best judged “case by case”... but I think we could use more guidance to help us make those case by case decisions.

At the moment, we seem to be operating on a purely WP:V/WP:RS basis (that if something is reported in an RS news outlet, we are allowed to mention it based on WP:V)... but, WP:V isn’t the only policy in play. we also need to examine content on a WP:NPOV/WP:UNDUE basis. Content can be verifiable (supported by RS Media) and yet still not worth mentioning based on UNDUE. It is a grey zone, so we need more guidance to help us navigate that grey zone. Blueboar (talk) 14:44, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree, and have made that point myself on a few articles. But this is a sub thread that has nothing really to do with that, but rather to use of wiki fact checkers to determine RS quality, undue is unrelated to RS and has its own forum.Slatersteven (talk) 14:51, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

A lot of this goes back to RECENTISM. Our coverage of a breaking event should be on primarily facts and very little on opinion, even if that's a "significant" view, when the event is just happening. UNDUE is best applied well after the event to just what the more perennial coverage gives to a topic. And that is where it may be fine that only a few sources are supporting the UNDUE facets, as long as they high quality RSes looking back at the topic. A NYtimes long-form describing views of, say, the proceedings around Nixon's impeachment would be fine, but not sufficient today for those around Trump's. But that's unfortunately where editors love to dump tons of high-quality RS opinions and the like, and that's yet another problem. UNDUE really needs to consider the time factor. --Masem (t) 15:00, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

The opinion we avoid reporting is our own. The opinion of major commentators at the NYT or Fox are not only RSs for what they say, but can be just as important in the evaluation and significance of events as the events themselves--and sometimes, it seems of even more importance. The problem is including them in proportion, and the question that keeps being raised above is how to make the decision on proportion. We every one of us have the tendency to believe what we want to believe. We each would very much like to believe that the overwhelming majority of people in our country feel the same way as we do on major political questions, and that here is consequently no real need to consider the other position. Anyone realistic must admit that, whichever side we are on, at best a fairly slim majority do will agree with us, though people in the country are divided between which side the majority is. (The people here at WP who discuss US political articles do seem to have a great majority on one particular side, but if NPOV means anything, that should be irrelevant to how we write our articles). As for the country, a year from now we will have an actual vote on this, and can anyone really think that the vote for the side they favor will be 90% or even 70%? The most recent President to get even 60% was Nixon in 1972. We should consider ourselves very fotunate if our favored side gets a majority at all. Or shall we be like a certain political figure who keeps insisting that his side always is in a great majority despite the numbers? DGG ( talk ) 05:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

More specifically. Let us say that I am convinced that one side are true patriots devoted to the truth, and the other side selfish scoundrels, trying to propagate lies. That does not entitle me on WP to label them accordingly,no matter how much I think it matters that people see it as I do. The most I will do on-wikito express my actual views is to give a hint of them on as talk page. DGG ( talk ) 05:41, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

We should never be including our opinion, but my point is that we should not be racing to include the seemingly DUE opinion of major sources related to some event/action while that event is still going on or just happened, unless that opinion is part of the event itself. RECENTISM is about waiting for the dust to settle , and then apply UNDUE and weight and determine what's the best way to present how opinions were for the permanency of a WP article. Maybe it ends up that while the media disliked how someone behaved during an event, academics come to believe it was for the better good. How'd we write such would be best done after enough time has passed to get that sense, which may take years depending. Unless the opinion is part of the event, it is impossible to judge UNDUE appropriately in the midst and immediate wake of an event - its a kind of Heisenberg principle for current events. We also need to consider worldwide views, not just, say, the US for US events. Phrases like "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" are kind of valuable here to understand that as an impartial encyclopedia we should be looking to write from judging the world view where ever that is appropriate, and that again takes time to figure out, and not in the midst of an event. --Masem (t) 14:31, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Is research by Amnesty International a valid source for Wikipedia?

Source: Amnesty International

Article: People's Mujahedin of Iran

Text in question: "Thousands of political dissidents were systematically subjected to enforced disappearance in Iranian detention facilities across the country and extrajudicially executed pursuant to an order issued by the Supreme Leader of Iran and implemented across prisons in the country. Many of those killed during this time were subjected to torture and other cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment in the process."

What's the verdict on this? Thanks :-) Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 22:23, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

• Aside from the grammatical problems with the first sentence, Amnesty is a good source for such topics. -- BullRangifer (talk) 22:29, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
• They're a respected advocacy group, and I would say they're a reasonable source for some basic information. However: there's inherent uncertainty in estimates of extrajudicial executions and other human rights violations, so in-text attribution is probably warranted here unless multiple sources say the same thing. Nblund ^talk 22:32, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
• Ahhh... I mean the title of the piece is "Blood-Soaked Secrets: Why Iran's Prison Massacres are Crimes Against Humanity". That indicates a pretty strong bias on the subject. Most sources like that, I wouldn't go anywhere near, no. If (say) it was ""Blood-Soaked Secrets: Why Hillary's Child Sex Rackets were Crimes Against Humanity", that'd be kind of a red flag too.

For instance, your quote says

Thousands of political dissidents were... extrajudicially executed

but

1) What is "extrajudicially"? It doesn't sound like the executions were illegal, since apparently the Supreme Leader of Iran said to do it, and with a title like Supreme Leader I suppose he can do whatever he wants. If it was all done according to Iranian law, then throwing in worlds like "extrajudicially" is pretty polemical I'd think, since it leads the reader toward making a conclusion that these events were illegal under Iranian law.

2) How confident can we be that its "thousands" and not just "hundreds"? Amnesty International is not Time magazine. At the end of the day, they are here to stop stuff like this from happening, not shuffle papers. If (for instance) saying "thousands" when it's really only "hundreds" makes for a punchier argument, then they'll say that. At least, I sure hope they would (if one's attitude is "Well, saying this will help our cause, but it would, technically, be inaccurate, so let's not", one should probably be working for the Los Angeles Times and not Amnesty International). They might be super vigilant about not making possible misstatements of fact for the business purpose of maintaining the integrity of their reputation for veracity. Might be. I don't know. Since I don't know, I'm suspicious. Herostratus (talk) 23:24, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Just to clarify, there's already a Wikipedia article about this massacre that the Amnesty International article describes (the 1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners), so this is about a well-established event. The question is whether the source can be used to add more details about the incident or not. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 23:33, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Amnesty is usually considered reliable but partisan, so it should be attributed. As an aside, "extrajudicial" means "outside the judicial system". For example, the Holocaust was ordered by Hitler and other Nazi leaders but is still extrajudicial because victims were not tried and convicted before being executed. I doubt that Amnesty is deliberately pushing false information because that would damage its credibility beyond the very short term. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 23:50, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

In context there is a point at which the appearance of "a pretty strong bias" is actually nothing of the sort. Perhaps "a pretty strong emotional reaction", but those can be appropriate at times, like when all reliable sources agree that a mass murder took place. And to answer the question about "extrajudicial", in this case it means that though the killings were ordered by the government and de facto legal, these were not death penalties resulting from trial. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:40, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

It is a reliable source routinely cited by news media. I don't see that their bias against mass murder is a major problem since no reliable sources take a contrary position. In cases where editors question their information, it can be compared with other reliable sources. But the same is true for any source. TFD (talk) 23:52, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Reliable, but attribute to avoid any bias.Slatersteven (talk) 08:44, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

They aren't a new source. They are a respected advocacy organization and should be handled as such (in text attribution). With such organizations I've seen a mix of how people establish weight. It's clear when news sources cite something AI says. I've seen similar cases where such organizations are cited when they have a view on a subject but they haven't been cited by others. Springee (talk) 14:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• At the end of the day, Amnesty International is still an advocacy organization. They are not trying to be neutral and unbiased, they are trying to advocate. That the thing they advocate for enjoys pretty universal support in much of the world, still doesn't make then not an advocacy organization. If possible, we should prefer to use independent sources that reference or quote AI, and not AI themselves. Even if it is a given that the bare facts are accurate, there is liable to be substantial differences in presentation between an advocacy group vs a journalistic or scholarly source. If we must use AI directly as a source, the information should be attributed. GMG^talk 15:06, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• Yes, this is an excellent source on such subject. Even if someone considers it "biased" (I do not think it is really biased), such sources are perfectly fine per WP:RS, and especially with explicit attribution. My very best wishes (talk) 19:48, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• I tend to believe that claims sourced to an advocacy organization should be attributed to that organization. Amnesty International is a respected international organization that is commonly referred to by other sources, but they still exist for the sole purpose of pushing a particular point of view. Because of their prominence, that viewpoint is probably significant in most issues they opine on. But it'd be best to include something like, "According to Amnesty International" whenever using their resource as a source, instead of just treating their claims as fact. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 22:55, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• I usually see it used with in-text attribution and I think that is the right thing to do. --MarioGom (talk) 22:58, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• Yes, but they are ultimately an advocacy group and may not always distinguish clearly between advocacy and research. I'd place them near (perhaps slightly above) SPLC (RSP entry) regarding reliability. feminist (talk) 13:56, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
• Yes in this case. It's a weighty document that contains much material to allow cross-checking of its claims. The numbers might be open to dispute if it weren't for the fact that they actually list the names: the regime could have skewered the document just by producing the people, if this were a sloppy list. They are an advocacy organisation, sure, but this is a report not a pamphlet or exhortation, and it contains many indicia of reliability and enough hostages to fortune that if it were sloppy it could have been used to completely discredit Amnesty. Guy (help!) 16:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
• Comment A number of editors have questioned the reliability of Amnesty International on the basis that it is an advocacy group. However there is no policy based reason for that view. "Biased or opinionated sources" says, "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." In fact very few sources with the exception of tertiary sources such as review studies and encyclopedias are unbiased. Tertiary sources are unbiased in the sense that they seek to explain the biased views in secondary sources according their relative weight of acceptance. But health journals have a bias toward health, biology journals have a bias toward evolution, earth sciences have a bias toward the existence of climate change, etc. TFD (talk) 01:44, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• I wrote an essay on the kinds of bias you describe. It is at WP:YWAB. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:27, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

The Guardian

This newspaper has an inherent left wing bias in all it's articles, It's op-ed pieces are often anti-semetic. Why is it considered as a reliable source for anything?80.0.45.128 (talk) 00:29, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

The Guardian is covered at WP:RS/P. - SummerPhD^v2.0 00:54, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• Here's a list of awards received by The Guardian and a list of past discussions on The Guardian's reliability. Do you have any specific examples that would support your claims against The Guardian's reliability? — Newslinger talk 00:58, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• The Guardian is an eminently RS. Apparently offense has been taken that it accurately describes Milo Yiannopoulos as "Far Right". -- BullRangifer (talk) 01:31, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• WP:RS is about having a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, not about being unbiased. A source simply having a perspective you find objectionable isn't sufficient to make it unreliable; see WP:BIASED. The question when dealing with such sources (and I'm not sure the Guardian would even qualify as such relative to news media as a whole) is whether its perspective or bias influences its reporting. There's a huge difference between a source like The Guardian that simply has a particular perspective and one that (for instance) was created to advance a perspective or which systematically has that perspective disseminated from above by a set of daily talking points as at Fox News; and even then, there's a difference between sources that work to advance a particular agenda (but do so 'fairly', ie. by reporting the news as it happens, if with a slant or with selective focus), and sources like the Daily Mail that just outright make stuff up, report stories with gross distortions, and otherwise don't exhibit the fact-checking and accuracy that WP:RS requires. --Aquillion (talk) 06:49, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

So? as has been said multiple times. BIas is not a reason for exclusion, if it was Fox would be banned, its not.Slatersteven (talk) 08:43, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

All bias media sources, Fox included should not be used as a RS for any project such as this. If a source is not centre and independent, then you cannot trust what they are reporting is true, or what facts are being ommitted to suit the bias of their articles. But if this is how wikipedia works then so be it. It will continue to be a joke in scholarly circles. Kind Regards J 80.0.45.128 (talk) 22:31, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia (RSP entry) is not a reliable source, and I would certainly hope that no academic publication directly uses content from Wikipedia, except for the purpose of studying or quoting Wikipedia itself. All readers are advised to exercise due diligence when using Wikipedia for research.

On media bias, our neutral point of view policy requires us to balance biased sources with sources representing other perspectives in proportion to their due weight. "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." (WP:DUE) The result is a neutral article not obtained by limiting ourselves to extremely neutral sources like the Associated Press (RSP entry) and Reuters (RSP entry), which would unnecessarily restrict our coverage, but by forming an accurate reflection of the world around us. — Newslinger talk 22:53, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• The Grauniad has a solid reputation for fact-checking and draws clear distinctions between news and editorial content. It has won many awards for high quality journalism. It is a reliable source. Guy (help!) 16:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
• While I generally dislike the use of news media as a source, so long as we do allow that any news media source should be used as a reliable source, the Guardian should. And I say this as someone who has been quite critical of Guardian reportage on a couple of topics; for instance, the Guardian was quite credulous both in its publication of Wikileaks data and also its reiteration of poorly sourced information in China stories. However, with that said, the Guardian has much stronger fact checking, editoral standards and corrections policies than most other news outlets. No news outlet is perfect, and Wikipedia is definitely too dependent on them in general. But the Guardian should be one of the last outlets we walk away from, not the first. Simonm223 (talk) 14:33, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
• The only thing I would simply be careful with on the Guardian is that they've taken a firm stance that climate change is real and they will fight disinformation related to it, so when it comes to how they write about climate change deniers/skeptics in terms of opinionated thoughts. eg if they started saying "This idiot John Q Smith thinks that a 1.5degC rise is normal.", we'd be very careful in repeating that on WP (best I know, they haven't done anything like that). Otherwise an RS. --Masem (t) 14:38, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• Ah... climate change is real. François Robere (talk) 21:28, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
• Wow! Any source that doesn't take a "firm stance that climate change is real" is not a RS, and any editor who doesn't take such a stance should be topic banned from that topic area IF they push denialist opinions (forbidden WP:Advocacy) on those topic pages. The evidence is right up there with the theories of gravity and evolution. -- BullRangifer (talk) 01:41, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

• It's not the question of whether CC is real or not, its how they would treat those that deny it with derogatory language because of the Guardian's firm stance to support that climate change exists. They can call people climate change deniers/etc. just fine, just that if they stoop to more derogatory terms, that's part of this "bias" and we should avoid including. --Masem (t) 02:23, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

@Masem:, I don't believe you that the news side of the Guardian said, "This idiot John Q Smith thinks that a 1.5degC rise is normal," or anything remotely similar. Link, or it never happened. Mathglot (talk) 03:18, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

That was a hypothetical. I have never seen, nor would expect the Guardian to go there with a statement like that. But if they ever should, we should be careful of how to use that.--Masem (t) 04:02, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

• The Guardian doesn't outright fabricate stories, unlike The Daily Fail, but there are certain areas where caution should be exercised. It has put out anti-semitic stories in the past (see https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/06/averting-accusations-of-antisemitism-guardian) and probably should be topic-banned in the Israeli-Palestinian topic area. It is probably fine for most other topic areas though. Betty Logan (talk) 02:10, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

  Since The Guardian made the necessary corrections ("The words were replaced and the articles footnoted to reflect the fact"), I don't think this is enough to exclude The Guardian's reporting on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The Guardian apologized for using politically incorrect language, and retracted the language when they received objections. — Newslinger talk 02:54, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Unspeakable Love

It would be OK to use this material Soon after the 1979 revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini established the death penalty for homosexuality. In February and March of 1979, there were 16 executions for crimes related to sexual violations attributed to the following source in Ruhollah Khomeini article? source:Whitaker, Brian (2011). Unspeakable Love: Gay and Lesbian Life in the Middle East. Saqi Books. ISBN 0863564836.

I have to say that I cannot find any other sources to support "Ayatollah Khomeini established the death penalty for homosexuality".Saff V. (talk) 14:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Books are usually poor sources for statements of fact, the reason being that books are usually not fact-checked by independent fact checkers. You are therefore thrown back largely on your confidence in the author. Well let's see... Brian Whitaker has an article. He's a legit journalist, writes for The Guardian... Which means he's not an academic. However, is clearly very expert in the general subject. He speaks Arabic and has written several books. The passage is very specific: "In February and March of 1979, there were 16 executions." Not the sort of thing that a person like him would just make up. He seems unlikely, with his level of expertise, to have confused "executions" with "imprisonments" or something. Is this something he would do on purpose? Well, he's got a website, al-bab, so you can check him out more thoroughly there... Here is his Twitter feed. And here is a library of his Guardian articles. He could be vetted more thoroughly thru these, but my overall sense is that no, he probably wouldn't do that, as it doesn't seem to fit what looks to be his business and career model. To the the extent that he might have a strong enough polemical bias to twist facts on purpose, he doesn't show it right off.

TL;DR: Has the expertise to not get this wrong. Does not appear likely in my view to have got it wrong on purpose. So, source is OK. Just OK, but OK enough in my book. Herostratus (talk) 14:51, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Source is RS. There are billions of other sources that confirm homosexuals were outlawed under Khomeini "because it went against the Quran". Sky is blue. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:06, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran:, Well in that case, we should use one of those sources instead, one that's been published in a peer-reviewed academic journal or publication known to have a good fact-checking operation. Herostratus (talk) 10:45, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

I have no idea where the idea books are usually bad sources comes from. The publisher seem reputable, the author is a respected journalist who actual,y has a qualification related to the topic this book is about. Now there may be an argument for attribution, but its RS.Slatersteven (talk) 16:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

@Slatersteven:, It comes from the idea that books are not fact checked. Articles in Time magazine are actually gone over by a fact-checker, independent of the write. She consults reference works, makes phone calls, and so forth to double-check that the writer indeed got his facts right.

Books are not fact-checked in this way. Books are gone over by a copy editor, but she is looking for spelling and grammar mistakes and awkward wording; she might check some facts on an ad hoc basis, but not rigoursly. There's no time; she's got X days to copy edit the entire book, and fact-checking is labor intensive. Sometimes an author will pay out of his own pocket and hire a fact-checker. Not usually.

And indeed I have some instances of distinguished authors getting fact wrong in books.

Nor does the publisher care. HarperCollins etc. know that people buy books by subject and author. No one says "Oh, a new HarperCollins books, I'll buy it". So it's not their business model to care. They won't publish books by InfoWars type authors who make up facts wholesale from whole cloth, because that'd eventually tend to degrade their reputation; that's different from caring whether a proper author is loose with occasional facts. "Reputable publisher" sounds comforting, but it's just a magic word. It doesn't mean much really.

So, a book is little better than a blog. The fact that it has physical mass, hard covers, cost some money to create, fancy dust cover... it feels comforting, but it doesn't mean anything really. Tha's not terrible; a lot of blogs are fine. It's just a matter of how reliable you think the author is, and you have to recognize that without a fact-checker even the best author's book or blog is going to be "Acceptable, but not great". Brian Whitaker looks reliable enough for me. Whether he had published his statement in a book or on his blog makes no real difference. We've decided to trust Brian Whitaker that what he says is true. Herostratus (talk) 10:45, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

@Herostratus: your evaluation of the author was good but I think you may have a more accurate "sense" if you note that the author of [15] has used another book (Afary, Janet and Anderson, Kevin: Foucault and the Iranian Revolution: Gender and the Seductions of Islam. Chicago 2005, p. 161.) as the reference for the claims. It is more interesting that in the footnote 31 of the later book, p.292 , the author has used email exchanges as a source of information! Can we rely on this?Saff V. (talk) 06:39, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Why wouldn't we? Email correspondence with experts in a given field is a valid way for journalists and academics to obtain information. It also cites a piece by Eliz Sanasarian, and other academic writings, and is published by University of Chicago Press. I don't see anything that would contradict this being a reliable source, in fact quite the opposite. AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 08:17, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

No less then face to face interviews.Slatersteven (talk) 08:57, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Pleas take look at the provided link then make the commment, Not only the source is the email exchanges, but also are this two unriliable website, homan and [16]. it is what was written in footnote:

Some of this information is based on an e-mail exchange with Goudarz Eghtedari (Iran). For a discussion of this issue, see Sanasarian 2000 and various issues of the journal Homan (1999–2001). For more information on the Iranian GLB movement, see the website for Homan: The Group to Defend the Rights of Iranian Gays and Lesbians, www.homan.cwc.net. For literature on Iranian lesbians, see www.geocities.com/khanaeyedoost.According to Duran, “homosexual assault is frequently used by the police of repressive regimes, such as the SAVAK during the reign of the Shah of Iran or its successor,SAVAMA, the dreaded security organ of the Khomeini government” (1993, 187). Saff V. (talk) 11:44, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

@AmbivalentUnequivocality: According to which policy of wp:RS is the email exchanges reliable?Saff V. (talk) 11:56, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Are we citing to it?Slatersteven (talk) 11:59, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the main source for that claim is email which as WP:SOURCE demanded, Unpublished materials are not considered reliable.Saff V. (talk) 12:17, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Hold on I am confused now, is the claim being sourced to the book, or an e-mail?Slatersteven (talk) 12:32, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

A book, which cites another book, which cited email. Staff V seems to be arguing that since the chain starts with email, subsequent books based on the email are not RS. Blueboar (talk) 12:46, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I will reserve judgement on the merits of such an argument (though I think my above responses should give a clue) based upon what his response it.Slatersteven (talk) 12:48, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I suggest then you read wp:rs which does not support your contention. Books are RS, as long as they meet certain criteria, this one does. If you are not happy with this I suggest you take it to village pump and try to get policy changed.Slatersteven (talk) 12:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, the book very clearly qualify as a good secondary RS on the subject. And what is the argument against using it, exactly? "A book, which cites another book, which cited email"... so the book is not an RS? This is the same "argument" as in the thread just below about Soviet gas vans. Wrong. An author of a secondary RS/a book can cite whatever (or nothing at all), but it is still his/her conclusion, and it is clearly a secondary RS. My very best wishes (talk) 13:12, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

This secondary book is not reliable for this claim, because these claims refers to email! I did not talk about being reliable book or not generally.Saff V. (talk) 14:35, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Not only you are making an original research here, but you are trying to disprove claims made by a reliable source (a book by an expert) while not being an expert on this subject yourself. This is POV-pushing. My very best wishes (talk) 15:13, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Books written by practicing journalists who specialize in reporting on the field the book is about (in this case, the internal politics of Middle Eastern countries) ought to be treated as reliable subject to the precautions stated in WP:BIASED. Some of the best reporting on the contentious and highly technical field of nuclear weapons proliferation has been in books authored by journalists who work for large newspapers and news magazines. The guidance in WP:BIASED has never been more appropriate wnen citing news sources in general, not just books or famously agenda-driven news outlets. --loupgarous (talk) 13:59, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

It is reasonable to say "Statements written by practicing journalists who specialize in reporting on the field... ought to be treated as reliable subject to the precautions stated in WP:BIASED". It's not necessarily true, but it's reasonable, as long as its understood that there are exceptions, and it depends on what the statement is.

Because whether its a book, a blog, an interview, or any other public statement doesn't necessarily or even usually make much difference. Just understand that, book or blog, if the person made a mistake -- for instance, slipped up reading a column of figures and wrote that the 2017 nominal GDP of Czechia is 245,000 (when actually that is the 2018 number) -- nobody is going to check that, probably. So it is not just expertise and lack of bias, you also need an author who wants to be and is able to be pretty careful about each statement of fact she puts under her name. Lots of writers are expert and unbiased, but not super careful. (As I said above, this particular writer for this particular statement of fact from this particular book is probably OK.) Herostratus (talk) 18:14, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

And any argument here must be based upon policy, not logic. Policy does not say that blogs and books are the same. Can we close this now, its just going round in circles.Slatersteven (talk) 08:19, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I find it dubious to suggest that WP:RS and WP:V would oppose inclusion of a source just because at some point the contents of that source were communicated via email. I would ask instead whether this source has any reviews that speak to its reliability; is it contradicted by other reliable sources; is it written by an author with a reputation for making shit up? This question seems more one of WP:DUE than WP:V to be honest. And for us to determine how due this particular source is for inclusion we must start by examining whether there's a countervailing view at all. Simonm223 (talk) 14:38, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Gas vans in the USSR and Nazi Germany, pt. 2

After substantial input from editors here including @Assayer, Slatersteven, Aquillion, My very best wishes, The Four Deuces, Someguy1221, Paul Siebert, Nug, K.e.coffman, and ZScarpia: discussion was quickly archived. Not being aware of discussion here, I tried to consolidate accounts of NKVD gas vans [17]. Quickly thereafter My very best wishes has expanded our article's emphasis on Soviet use of gas vans, and changed the article's language to be more definitive [18].

My main concern is that the Nazi systematic use of gas vans for extermination is being subordinated to their sporadic and uncertain use in the purges in a manner that violates WP:WEIGHT. This is especially alarming to me because The Four Deuces suggests that this has been a cause célèbre for holocaust deniers including Udo Walendy.

Until this discussion and investigation is included, hopefully in a manner involving a greater number of editors, I think we should be conservative with the article Gas van. -Darouet (talk) 14:41, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

This is not really an RS issue, its a NPOV issue.Slatersteven (talk) 16:41, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

This has been already discussed on WP:NPOV noticeboard [19], with consensus to expand the section about Nazi Germany. User Assayer promised to expand it, and he is welcome to do just that. Who said "this has been a cause célèbre for holocaust deniers"? If that can be reliably sourced to something other than Holocaust deniers themselves, perhaps this should be included to the page? My very best wishes (talk) 17:42, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• As others have said, this is a WP:DUE / WP:TONE issue that is better taken to WP:NPOVN - at this point it's hard to see what reliable-sourcing question is being asked at all, since the real dispute is over focus and framing rather than what sources to use. Although I should also point out (since I see people in the discussion on that page bringing up the previous WP:RSN discussions as though they settled this definitively) that those discussions were over whether the sources can be used under WP:RS, not whether they should be used under WP:DUE or, if so, how much weight to give them and what tone to take under WP:TONE. Those, unfortunately, tend to be more difficult questions. --Aquillion (talk) 18:30, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Comments by involved users (@Assayer, Slatersteven, Aquillion, My very best wishes, The Four Deuces, Someguy1221, Paul Siebert, Nug, K.e.coffman, ZScarpia, and Darouet:

Actually, there is also an issue that makes this discussion relevant to this noticeboard. On the article's talk page, @Darouet: proposed to list all sources that tell about Soviet gas vans, and to summarise which secondary sources are based on which primary sources. I think it would be good to move this discussion here. Moreover, per comments on the NPOV talk page, I propose to organize this discussion in such a way that involved and uninvolved users are separated from each other. In my opinion, noticeboards like this one are created to give more opportunity for non-involved users to voice their opinion, so that style seems to serve to this purpose better.

Here is my summary of all sources:

• A collection of testimonies published in Kontinent. The author is a writer specialized in cinematography. He just collected all available testimonies about Butovo polygon. He provided no own analysis of testimonies, so, in my opinion, this book, despite the fact that it is a useful source of information, is just a collection of primary sources.
• The Komsomolskaya Pravda article published in 1990 by Zhirnov. This article is not available online (to the best of my knowledge). It is very likely that the Zhirnov's article used the Berg's dossier, the same document cited by the Kontinent (vide supra).

The Zhirnov's article was cited by several secondary sources, each of which used it as the sole source about Soviet gas vans. These sources are:

1. Timothy J. Colton. Moscow: Governing the Socialist Metropolis. Belknap Press, 1998. ISBN 0-674-58749-9 p. 286
2. Е. Жирнов. «По пути следования к месту исполнения приговоров отравлялись газом». Коммерсантъ Власть, № 44, 2007 (the article by the same author who just re-tells the story he published in KP).
3. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn Two Hundred Years Together (Двести лет вместе), volume=2, Москва, Русский путь, 2002, ISBN 5-85887-151-8, p. 297
4. Yevgenia Albats and Catherine A. Fitzpatrick, KGB: The State Within a State. 1995, page 101
5. Robert Gellately, Lenin, Stalin and Hitler: The Age of Social Catastrophe, Knopf, 2007, ISBN 140003213X, p.460.

In addition, the source Marek Hałaburda, “The Polish Operation”. The genocide of the Polish people in the USSR in the years 1937–1938, Orientalia Christiana Cracoviensia, 2013, v.5, p. 71. just cites the Polish book Wielki Terror: 1937–1938 by Tomasz Kizny, who, according to Joanna Madloch (The Slavic and East European Journal, Vol. 57, No. 4 (WINTER 2013), pp. 699-70) is just an independent photographer. Therefore, it is highly unlikely Kizny performed any independent archival research, and, most likely, he is telling the same story that the KP article.

• The article Н. Петров. «Человек в кожаном фартуке». Nikita Petrov, Novaya Gazeta (ru:Новая газета, спецвыпуск «Правда ГУЛАГа» от 02.08.2010 № 10 (31)) tells essentially the same story as the Zhirnov's article, but it provides no sources, so it is highly likely it is based on the information provided by Zhirnov (an author of the KP article).
• We also have the Grigorenko's book where he cites (from memory) testimonies of one person who happened to see what he described as usage of a gas van in Omsk in 1930s. In my opinion, the author provided no analysis of this primary source, so this source should be considered as a highly questionable primary source.
• Next source is memoirs by ex-policeman М. П. Шрейдеp. According to him, during transportation, the victims were intoxicated by car exhaust that made them semi-conscious. He is not telling that the primary reason was to kill them during transportation. Therefore, usage of this source is a direct violation of the rules that regulate usage of primary sources.
• The article by Sokolov (Газовые душегубки: сделано в СССР (Gas vans: made in the USSR) by Dmitry Sokolov, Echo of Crimea, 09.10.2012) was published in a local Ukrainian newspaper. It essentially summarizes the information from the above mentioned sources.
• In addition, we have the article published is a personal blog by Nicholas Terry, a scholar who is professionally studying Holocaust and Holocaust denial. This article says the Soviet gas van story is used by Holocaust deniers to blame Jews in invention of gas vans.

In my opinion, there is a big problem with usage of sources, which are organized in such a way that multiple sources that used a tabloid article as the sole source of information are presented as many independent sources. In addition, several primary sources are used as secondary ones, whereas the opinion of the scholar who professionally studies the Holocaust is ignored. As a result, we have a three pronged violation: WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR are violated simultaneously.

Again, to let uninvolved user voice their opinion, all participants are strongly encouraged to comment in "involved" and "non-involved" sections, accordingly.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:04, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

@AmbivalentUnequivocality: I probably was not clear enough. When I listed the sources that are based on a single KP article, I meant that they cite only this article as a source of information. For example, Solzhenitsyn clearly writes that he obtained the information about gas vans from this KP article, and he does not cite any other source. There is no indication that Albatz, Merridale, Gellately, Solzhenitsyn use any other source besides the Zhirnov's article. Therefore, it is not my guess: they are talking about the same story that happened during the Great Purge, they cite only the KP article, they cite no arcival documents, they present no witness testimonies, and there is no indication any of them did any independent archival studies of this issue. Therefore, there can be no "probably" here: each of them is based on that KP article, and only on that article. Later articles authored by Zhirnov tell the same story, and they are based on the same single document the author happened to see in 1990, so it is not an independent publication either. The Polish work cites another Polish book authored by a photographer, who also did no archival research, and the only source of information available to him could be either that KP article or some of the sources listed by me above. That is not a guess, that is a logical conclusion.

In addition, nobody claims these sources should be rejected, the problem is different: if several sources are telling the story that was taken from some single source, we cannot present them as several independent sources. Quite the opposite: we have to list them all, but we must clearly explain the connection between each of them and the original publication each of them is based upon.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:21, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I am referring to things you have said such as "It is very likely that the Zhirnov's article used the Berg's dossier", "The article...tells essentially the same story as the Zhirnov's article, but it provides no sources, so it is highly likely it is based on the information provided by Zhirnov" and "it is highly unlikely Kizny performed any independent archival research, and, most likely, he is telling the same story that the KP article". These seem to be to be your assumptions about these sources, and not verifiable facts. Just because something is, in your opinion, "very/highly/most likely", does not mean that we can consider it as such. That is, as far as I can tell, your original research. AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 05:41, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

@AmbivalentUnequivocality: Of course, it is verifiable. Thus, it is quite possible to find Kizny's book and check what source he was using. Taking into account that he himself is not a historian, and his book is not devoted to the gas van topic, it is highly unlikely that he did any independent research. Therefore, we have a very serious reason to assume it is not an independent source, but just a repetition of what other sources say. That can and should be checked, and, until it is checked, we should not use it.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:12, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I will reiterate; it is only your opinion that this is "highly unlikely", and making such assessments of sources is original research. I give very little weight to assumptions, no matter how serious one thinks the causes for such assumptions may be. AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 04:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Guy, it seems this issue does belong to this page, at least, partially. First, should we treat the source that just reproduces a single secondary source as secondary or tertiary? Second, should we treat it as an independent source, or we should clarify the hierarchy of sources (which source is based on which)?--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:17, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, I think the comments by Paul are misleading and indeed original research. No, the publication in Kontinent is not just a collection of testimonies. There is no such thing as "Butovo polygon". Paul could not even find the article in Komsomolskaya Pravda he tells was used by other sources. All authors of secondary sources clearly express their own views on the subject, they do not even cite directly the alleged source "...", including even later publications by the same author (Zhirnov). We simply do not know what other sources the historians (Albatz, Merridale, Gellately, Solzhenitsyn, etc.) could use, all of them are established experts. If even I could find four additional sources (such as the articles in Kontinent and by Sokolov and memoirs by Grigorenko and Shreider, none of which ever mention the article in Komsomolskaya Pravda), so could others. My very best wishes (talk) 15:07, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

1. It doesn't matter, if the comments of an editor on sources are "original research" or not. In fact, research is indispensable to assess the reliability of sources.
2. The publication in Kontinent is merely a transcript of interviews for a documentary. The previous discussion at best proposed to use this source with caution and attribution. Actually I am surprised that My very best wishes is so in favour of that source, because it directly contradicts their other sources, in that the Soviet gas vans according to these "eyewitnesses" were not used for execution, but for rendering the victims unconscious before they were shot.
3. Albatz, Colton, and Solzhenitsyn cite Komsomolskaya Pravda. Merridale cites Colton. To use Merridale and Colton as seperate sources is misleading. As of now the translator of Yevgenia Albatz' work has even been promoted to co-author status. Does anybody think that this increases reliability?
4. It does not matter what other sources historians might have used use. That's mere speculation. It is clear from the footnotes that many used only one source and others kept copying. Those are not independent sources.
5. The current use of sources in the article is so focused upon using everything available, that errors and contradictions are reproduced over and over again. I already introduced a work on Stalin's secret police by Alexander Vatlin.[20] Based upon Berg's personal file it is clear that Berg became chief of the administrative economic department in Moscow’s NKVD in the summer of 1937 and was arrested on 3 August 1938. Instead, based upon a newspaper article by Zhirnov, Wikipedia claims that Berg was arrested in 1937. That's an example of WP:INACCURACY and demonstrates how (un)reliable Zhirnov is. What could be found on Berg with Vatlin has quickly been removed from the article. Seems that this source didn't fit into the narrative, because Vatlin does not mention "Soviet gas vans".
6. To a large degree this is indeed an issue of WP:DUE. However, I would like to know when exactly WP:VERIFIABILITY and WP:SCHOLARSHIP were thrown over board. As of now interviews, newspaper articles, novelists and studies from the 90ies are preferred over more recent scholarship.--Assayer (talk) 18:22, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Verifiable means if I read it and you read it we see the same thing, not that it is accurate. Scholarship is one part of RS, so it WP:NEWSORG, what it does not say is we can only use scholarly sources. So none of the above throws either out. I really suggest this is closed now, its not an RS issue and is becoming tiresome. Do not ping me again, I have said all I wish to say.Slatersteven (talk) 18:28, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Historical articles should rely on scholarly works where possible And, yes, Scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources are generally better than news reports for academic topics. There is no grounds for an "anything goes"-approach. If there was any ping, it was unintentional and maybe due to the edit summary. --Assayer (talk) 19:47, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Comments by non-involved users

• I do not really want to wade too deeply into this here (Seems like not really the correct place), but I will say that the above argument relies far too much on the assumptions, guesses, and opinions of one editor(unsigned, but page history shows it is Paul Siebert) to the point that it verges pretty deeply into Original Research territory. I am not comfortable with their assessment that all these sources "probably" rely upon the same source, especially when that source is unavailable. I see a whole lot of "in my opinion", "It is very likely", "highly likely", etc. This is really nothing more than guesswork, and you cannot dismiss sources based on an editor's assumptions or guesses, which seems to be the backbone of the above argument. AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 01:36, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I am not an involved edd, and have no idea how I am supposed to be involved. We do not second guess sources, we do not use assumption or OR to dismiss them. This is not an RS issue (the sources have been found to be RS) its a weight issue. This is getting tedious now.Slatersteven (talk) 09:00, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Comments

• This is very strange posting by User:Paul Siebert. He tells that all multiple RS above "used a tabloid article as the sole source of information". Why? No, they did not. Actually, most of the sources above perfectly qualify as independent secondary RS per WP:RS (only two of them are reliably published memoirs by famous people and therefore probably primary RS, which does not preclude their usage per policy). An exception is this blog post, which was posted by an anonymous user with Russian name [21]. No, this is not posting by Nicholas Terry. Fortunately, no one suggested to use this blog on the page so far. My very best wishes (talk) 23:41, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• This is not a RS question, the sourcing is generally fine and can be addressed case by case on Talk anyway. The issue is of WP:UNDUE, and as far as I can see we can fix that simply by putting the Nazi section first (since that's far and away the most prominent). I have done that. Guy (help!) 10:40, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
• How is this even an argument?! Everyone has heard about Nazi gan vans, lots of sources. "Soviet gas trucks" are covered by Russian tabloids who recount an eyewitness of a truck which nauseated but didn't kill transportees, some sources who repeat the tabloids, and Holocaust deniers who try to downplay Nazi gas vans. Nazi gas vans existed and killed many. The existence of a few "Soviet gas trucks" isn't even certain. Eostrix (talk) 11:15, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

This page does not include a single reference to tabloids or to Holocaust deniers. I did not see a single RS saying anything about Holocaust deniers in relation to the Soviet gas vans. None of the cited sources downplays Nazi gas vans. My very best wishes (talk) 11:57, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't know much about this, but I did search. What I found in English: [22] or [23] is on www.vho.org whose title is "The Holocaust Controversy A Case for open Debate". German-Wikipedia calls Weckert a "Holocaust denier". The Russian-Wikipedia is skeptical on Berg - "no evidence". Eostrix (talk) 15:46, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

OK. Russian Wikipedia is not an RS, but it provides a link to yet another source [24], newspaper Argumenty i Fakty (currently not used on our page Gas van). There, a Russian state security official tells about Soviet gas vans as matter of fact. Furthermore, your both sources (linked pdfs) also claim that Soviet gas vans did exist and refer to an additional source, a "four-part television series ... broadcast in the United States" (also currently not used on our page). However, one of the linked sources is a book by a Holocaust denier as you say, and another one is from the "The World's largest website for Historical Revisionism!". Are you saying they should be used for sourcing on the page? Argumenty i Fakty look OK to me. My very best wishes (talk) 16:17, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I am not suggesting www.vho.org. Color me skeptical when everything I find in English is linked to Holocaust denial.Eostrix (talk) 16:34, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that's because some people denied the use of gas vans by Nazi. My very best wishes (talk) 16:39, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

• My understanding was that Terry (the central academic RS in this case) was ambivalent if the Soviet gas vans existed but asserted if they did exist they were a small "innovation" with a local scope, not something codified into policy. Simonm223 (talk) 14:34, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

What "central academic RS" do you mean? This blog post by this anonymous user [25]? My very best wishes (talk) 14:46, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Source to check

These have come up as possible sources, can someone check them?

The Scale and Nature of German and Soviet Repression and Mass Killings, 1930-45 Stephen Wheatcroft Europe-Asia Studies Vol. 48, No. 8 (Dec., 1996), pp. 1319-1353 "construction of gas-vans ('dushegubki') in 1937".

Cheers.Slatersteven (talk) 15:21, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Sole mention I see is in footnote 75 (page 1353):

"Valentin Kovalev quotes a statement from Isaiah Davidovich Berg, the former head of the administrative economic department of the Moscow oblast' NKVD , that he had participated in the construction of gas-vans ('dushegubki') in 1937 in order to gas to death those sentenced to be shot. Further confirmation is needed concerning this sensational claim. See Valentin Kovalev, Dva Stalinskikh Narkoma (Moscow, Univers, 1995), p . 241"

So a sensational claim needing further confirmation. Eostrix (talk) 15:28, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

How about [[[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lXM2H6tWHskC&pg=PA286&lpg=PA286&dq=dushegubki+%2B+nkvd&source=bl&ots=fOiZKwVv_F&sig=ACfU3U24SQrch93sKcvAr-jwbrbIUxRgeg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbrMjB27LlAhU5QUEAHQAMDfMQ6AEwDHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=dushegubki%20%2B%20nkvd&f=false]?Slatersteven (talk) 15:40, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

One sentence on "ginned up" lorry by Isai D. Berg at Butovo. No discussion, the rest of the page discusses shootings there. Eostrix (talk) 15:45, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Is it an RS? If it is then we have an RS that talk s about this. Anything else is another matter.Slatersteven (talk) 15:46, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

The reference number 75 in the Wheatcroft's article is used in the sentence

" Auschwitz as a centre for mass killing should be compared with the mass shootings[75] of the NKVD throughout the 1930s, and not with the Gulag or the famine."

The ref 75 says:

" Valentin Kovalev quotes a statement from Isaiah Davidovich Berg, the former head of the administrative economic department of the Moscow oblast' NKVD, that he had participated in the construction of gas-vans ('dushegubki') in 1937 in order to gas to death those sentenced to be shot. Further confirmation is needed concerning this sensational claim."

That means that (i) Kovalev refers to the same document that was used by Zhirnov in his KP article, and, most likely, Kovalev's claim is based on the same KP article, and (ii) Wheatcroft, who is a really serious historian specializing in Stalinist repressions, thinks that that claim is "sensational" and needs further confirmation.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:07, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the book, this page is not available to me, and I couldn't read it. However, if it tells about Berg, then it is definitely based on the same KP article, because the Berg's dossier seems to have been classified again (the only person who happened to see it was Zhirnov). Again, we are speaking about the same story reproduced by several secondary sources. --Paul Siebert (talk) 05:11, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Which is irrelevant, that is not how RS works. We are not allowed to second guess or analyse RS. They may well be reap;ting the same story (assuming they are, and that is an assumption), they are still RS.Slatersteven (talk) 08:22, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Not exactly. We are allowed, and we must analyse RS before we use them. Thus, my analysis shows that the RS found by you supports the claim that the statement about Soviet gas van found in Valentin Kovalev's book is sensational, and it requires further confirmations. Do you have any objection to that?--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:33, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Which Wikipedia policy tells us "we must analyse RS before we use them"? What you are proposing is research and WP:OR strictly forbids it. --Nug (talk) 12:56, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

WP:V says: "Use sources that directly support the material presented in an article and are appropriate to the claims made. The appropriateness of any source depends on the context. The best sources have a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments. The greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source."

That means, we have to

1. Analyze the context to determine appropriateness of the source;
2. Analyze the structure of the source to determine if it is professional;
3. Analyze the degree of scrutiny to determine the degree of reliability.

In contrast, if you just pick a phrase from the source, that is called cherry-picking, and it is not a sign of a good editor.

Moreover, as a recent discussion at the NOR talk page demonstrated, OR is applied to the article space only. What you are saying is playing policies against each other. --Paul Siebert (talk) 20:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

You misunderstand WP:V, nowhere does it state we need to analyse sources used by a source, that is OR. --Nug (talk) 21:12, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

An ability to read and understand English texts is an obvious skill that is not supposed to be stipulated by our policy. And, again, this your statement is playing OR against V, which is directly prohibited in areas that are under DS.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:18, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

@Paul, I do have one question. You said in your post above, "whereas the opinion of the scholar who professionally studies the Holocaust is ignored". What scholar and which source are you talking about? Based on your post (the diff), it is this anonymous blog post. And you are telling about the alleged "WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR" "violations" by others? My very best wishes (talk) 23:37, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

should addictivetips dot com and privacyaustralia dot net be considered reliable sources?

The websites seem to be native advertising and sponsored content, and are cited in NordVPN as citations 19 and 22. Would (oldosfan) 03:36, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

NO.Slatersteven (talk) 13:06, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

• Rather obviously not. Guy (help!) 13:11, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
• About these two sites:
  • AddictiveTips (addictivetips.com) is a group blog with a team of nine people. Most of their non-VPN content is of low quality, and AddictiveTips is at best marginally reliable for uncontroversial technology-related topics. AddictiveTips should not be used to establish notability. All of the content in AddictiveTips' VPN/Privacy section is sponsored content with calls to action, and should not be cited on Wikipedia. Everything under https://www.addictivetips.com/vpn/ should be blacklisted.
  • Privacy Australia (privacyaustralia.net) is operated by a team of two people, only one of whom appears to be responsible for the site content. This alone makes Privacy Australia a self-published source, but the fact that the site is almost entirely composed of sponsored content with calls to action means that it should be blacklisted.

— Newslinger talk 03:53, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

• • • Nice, though I've already removed the citations due to earlier consensus Would (oldosfan) 07:20, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

A personal blog of a professional historian as a source for history articles

According to The Guardian, Nicolas Terry is a professional historian who studies modern Holocaust denial[26]. He collaborated with the Holocaust memorial museum; currently he is a senior lecturer at University of Exeter, and he has a personal blog where history related materials are published. Is this blog a reliable source for WP articles devoted to various aspects of the Holocaust and its denial?

This question is a continuation of the previous discussion, but, since the previous discussion is becoming too convoluted, I decided to ask this question separately. Users @Assayer, Aquillion, My very best wishes, The Four Deuces, Someguy1221, Paul Siebert, Nug, K.e.coffman, ZScarpia, and Darouet: are participants of this dispute, so I would be grateful to see the opinion of non-involved users.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:36, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Can you provide links to his blog (which you want to cite) and the previous discussion? feminist (talk) 03:38, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Sure, forgot to add it. Added.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:01, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Where is the previous discussion? feminist (talk) 13:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

• No, the blog is not an RS, only Nicolas Terry can be. For example, this blog post by this anonymous user [27] is not an RS. But even if that were a post by Nicolas Terry, using the self-published source should be strongly discouraged. Anything significant by Nicolas Terry should be published in a better place, and especially on a controversial subject. My very best wishes (talk) 03:40, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
• In general personal blogs are not reliable sources, irrespective of who the author is. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:52, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

But, in specific, we do allow blogs written by experts (when writing about things in their field of expertise) Blueboar (talk) 13:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem: I am aware of that general rule, however, I am asking because self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. In my opinion, there is a possibility that Terry fits those criteria.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:01, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, a personal blog can be reliable for certain topics if it meets WP:SPS, although published sources are preferred. WP:IDONTLIKEIT does not override SPS. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 04:04, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

So it has been mentioned that this blog is not solely authored by Terry. There are several other contributors who seem to be pseudonymous. Is there a way to filter or search posts only by Terry? Can we have a reasonable level of confidence that Terry is the one using his named account? And does Terry share his byline or account with anyone else who might blog? I guess those criteria are WP:SPS 101. Yes, Terry's work might meet RS standards, but other contributors would need to be evaluated on their own merits, and since Blogger doesn't have blue check marks, we'll need to establish some way of knowing accounts actually belong to who they say they are. Elizium23 (talk) 09:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Good questions. Let's try to answer. As Paul tells, it is a continuation of this discussion. Hence, this is an account in question [28] who made this post. This is not Terry. What this blogger does? He cites Holocaust deniers [29] from the "The World's largest website for Historical Revisionism". He "forgets" about numerous reliable sources existing on this subject. He whitewashes crimes by the Stalinist regime. He has a Russian nickname. The bottom line: this is not Terry. My very best wishes (talk) 12:49, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

We can assume that any unsigned articles are either written by Terry or or are as good as written by him. TFD (talk) 19:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

We can? On what basis? Not trying to be argumentative I just don't see why anyone would make that assumption here. Fyddlestix (talk) 03:39, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

• Yes As per SPS his blog is an RS for his view, as long as they are attributed. But only his posts are RS, not anything else anyone posts there.Slatersteven (talk) 13:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

We also need to factor WP:Due Weight into the mix... he may be reliable, but still not worth citing. (Not giving an opinion on this case... just reminding people that reliability is not the only issue to discuss). Blueboar (talk) 13:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

True, buts its also a different issue.Slatersteven (talk) 13:42, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, per WP:SPS, "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." If we accept that Nicolas Terry is "an established expert on the subject matter" then his writing is considered reliable, however that only extends to writing he, himself authors, not writing by non-experts which happen to be published near his writing. It is only writing where he is the clear author this applies to. --Jayron32 14:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
• Limited: Only when "posted by" is Nicholas Terry, and where the contents is uncontroversial. Any controversial claim would require a peer- or editor-reviewed source. Guy (help!) 16:44, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
• Depends. The author seems to mix factual reporting and his own opinion quite liberally on his blog, so editors should be cautioned not to present his opinion as fact. He seems to have strong views on the topic (regardless of whether they are appropriate or not). I agree with JzG. feminist (talk) 17:37, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
• Yes of course, as long as the author is an established expert as described above. As other editors have mentioned, posts written by other authors are not reliable, though I would add the caveat that if any other authors are themselves established experts, then their posts would also be acceptable. This isn't necessarily a strong source, but I also note that WP:PARITY is in effect with regards to Holocaust denial. As a result, without compelling reasons to the contrary (e.g. direct contradiction in the peer-reviewed literature), it can most likely be depended on to give the academic position on any claims related to Holocaust denial. Sunrise (talk) 18:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
• Yes Here is a link to a previous discussion. In this case the blog is being used to discredit one sentence in an otherwise reliable source about a Jewish Communist alleged to have created gas vans in the USSR. The story is popular in anti=Semitic literature but, other than this one source, is not cited in any other academic book at all. The author used as his source a tabloid, Komsomolskaya Pravda originally for Young Communists that now publishes anti-Semitic articles. (The narrative is that Nazi Germany did not gas any Jews, but the Jews gassed Ukrainians.) I think that this is a good case for "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources". TFD (talk) 19:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
• No. I can't imagine what it would be used for in a topic so thoroughly covered by scholarly sources. For anything contentious, we need a peer-reviewed source. For any uncontentious, there will surely already be a peer-reviewed source. Can someone post an example of how the blog would be used and a link to the previous discussion? SarahSV ^(talk) 19:51, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
  • SarahSV, it is not thoroughly covered, see my comments above. TFD (talk) 21:23, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

SarahSV, I perfectly understand limitations of this source. The problem is that the topic ("Soviet gas vans") is not covered in scholarly literature at all. The only sources that cover this topic are Holocaust deniers writings, and that is analyzed in Terry's blog. I failed to find better sources.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:45, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Paul, I'm having difficulty following this discussion. Can you link to the precise blog post you want to use as a source, and the edit it will support? SarahSV ^(talk) 01:08, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

SarahSV I mean this source. I myself do not think it is really good, but other sources writing about that subject are even worse: they are based either on non-verifiable testimonies, or on some Russian tabloid article published in 1990. --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:35, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Paul, thanks. You've linked to a blog post by Sergey Romanov. I don't know who that is. That's definitely not an RS unless you can show that he's an expert. It means this discussion is misleading, because you seemed to be asking whether Nicholas Terry was an RS if self-published, but in fact you're asking whether Sergey Romanov is. Which edit did you want to use that source to support? SarahSV ^(talk) 17:00, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

SarahSV, I know that the author of the post is not Terry, however, as far as understand, Terry is supposed to moderate his blog, so it seems the content of his blog is somewhat vetted by him.

I am going to use this blog to support the statement that the sensational claim about alleged invention and usage of has vans is cited by Holocaust deniers who question the fact of existence of Nazi gas vans (such as Alvarez). The fact that Alvarez questions the existence of German gas vans and cites the Soviet gas van story follows from his book, so this claim is not controversial, so it does not need an outstanding evidences. I do not think we should cite the Alvarez's book directly, because it is published by a publisher house that was established by a convicted Holocaust denier.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:40, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, it can be used for some things. If I understand the issue properly, this all relates to allegations that the Soviet Union used gas vans and some of the controversy surrounding that...? That entire aspect seems slightly WP:FRINGEy, in the sense that while sources exist, they're sharply lower-quality and lower-prominence than the ones discussing the usage by Nazis. For more obscure subjects like this (where few high-profile mainstream scholars have weighed in), I feel it is appropriate to rely on what we can get - the opinion of an established scholar like Terry, even posted via WP:SPS, seems important to include if we're going to discuss such an obscure aspect at all. --Aquillion (talk) 21:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
• Depends This blog not only deals with Holocaust denial, it even engages with deniers’ arguments. Not many historians do that, for obvious reasons: Holocaust denial is not to be taken seriously. Arguments with Holocaust deniers simply are not the kind of material which would be published as a book. Irving v Penguin Books Ltd is a rare exception. The blog (and a different post by Romanov) have been cited by RS (historical scholarship). I take notice that the one user who preaches that we simply do not know what other sources the historians could use[30] is certain that Romanov "forgets" about numerous reliable sources existing on this subject. He whitewashes crimes by the Stalinist regime. That’s simply unfounded.--Assayer (talk) 23:53, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. Per WP:SPS, Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. OK, but who is author of the post in question [31]? Someone called "Sergey Romanov" [32]. Is it even real name of the person? And even if it is real, what kind of expert he is? My very best wishes (talk) 23:56, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

• Based on their last comment [33], Paul started this entire thread just to discredit a reliable primary source (the book by Petro Grigorenko, it was cited in a lot of other books [34] and scholarly literature), along with claims by a number of other secondary RS, using another source, a blog by an unknown person that he knew was not an RS. And his logic is misleading. Whatever Holocaust deniers could cite is simply irrelevant. My very best wishes (talk) 22:09, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• Welllll... I guess not. First of all, Nicholas Terry. As to notability, in the sense that we want to say "According to Nicholas Terry...", let's see... Nicholas Terry is not bluelinked and probably isn't eligible yet, having written only one book ("Auschwitz: The Practice of Extinction") which isn't published yet, and he's a lecturer rather than a professor. We don't give just anybody standing to be quoted that way... We don't quote just any random university lecturer. "Is a professional historian" (in the sense that he makes his living as a history teacher) also applies to the your 11th grade history teacher, and we have to have a line somewhere. Terry has a PhD and has written a book and has other markers of notability, so he might be sufficiently notable to quote, but he's on the bubble anyway.

As far his reliability for statements of fact, no, probably not. He doesn't appear to have a sufficient corpus that we can say "well, here is a guy with a sterling reputation for sufficient expertise, attention to detail, and lack of bias that we can take most anything he writes to the bank". For all I know his book will be reviewed in the manner of "Sparks gets many of his facts wrong...".

As far as what he himself writes in his blog, its pretty much as good as what he might write in his book: neither is independently fact checked (probably; when the book comes out we can see if he credits a fact checker (unlikely)). That's not a deal-killer necessarily, if Terry himself is sufficiently reliable. But he's not, IMO.

As to stuff written at that blog by anyone other than Terry, heck no. The third entry on the front page is titled "Yet another Holocaust-denying terrorist" and opens with "Meet a typical low-intelligence chan loser scum, Stephan Balliet...". We can't go near stuff like that of course, and really it colors the entire publication (blog or whatever you want to call it) and kind of implies that its editors are either biased or insufficiently in control. Terry's association with a publication like that is not a good marker that he can be securely trusted to not cherry-pick or even twist facts. (He probably doesn't, but "probably" is kind of a low bar for introducing statements of fact to the Wikipedia.)

Taken all together, no, I don't think we can consider Terry, by himself and publishing in a non-fact-checked venue, as a reliable source at this time. As and if his academic career advances, that may change. Herostratus (talk) 12:47, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• Only with attribution; there is no scholarly editorial control that would be present in the journal process or from an academic press. It cannot be used as source for material in WP voice. Cambial Yellowing(❧) 22:33, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

You mean with attribution to "Sergey Romanov" who authored this blog post (and possibly has a different name in real life) or to "Nicholas Terry" who possibly has no idea about this blog post? My very best wishes (talk) 22:40, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Paul asked this question about the blog in general, not a specific post. I replied on the same basis. Attribution means "ascribing a work or remark to a particular author" and I meant exactly what I wrote. Cambial Yellowing(❧) 22:45, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Looking at some of the additional questions which have arisen, the question of notability of an individual to whom a text is attributed arises. Terry may be notable in whatever very specific specialism he has published in, and therefore his posts relating to that area worth inclusion. Whoever Sergey Romanov is, and if that is the real subject of this discussion, unless it can be shown otherwise he appears to be totally inconsequential, and therefore not sufficiently notable to include his views on any subject. Cambial Yellowing(❧) 22:59, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! OK, but simply looking at the blog, I do not see a single post by Terry. My very best wishes (talk) 00:13, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

• Generally no; @Paul Siebert: unfortunately I think you've incorrectly assessed the nature of the blog. According to the blog's introductory post back in 2006 by Nicolas Terry, he was only one of the founding collaborators ("I hope to dedicate some of my postings to this collective blog to discussing", "The contributors here met online at the RODOH forum"). [35]. Its also unclear to me how much involvement Terry still has with the blog; the most recent post he made seems to be from 2016 and he doesn't seem to have been contributing regularly even then (unfortunately I cant find a way to search by author). Posts that he personally made may be RSs, but I don't see any indication he exercises control over the other contributors' work. -RaiderAspect (talk) 00:17, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
• Comment Is this the same noticeboard which just vetted an eyewitness account related through an interview by a third person published as a transcript ("novel of evidence") of a documentary in a literary quarterly? We don't quote just any random university lecturer. Why? Is his work too scholarly, maybe? Ok, he co-edited a volume on genocide denial for Routledge, which seems too make him less reliable than memoirs by former NKVD officers. He has published with Yad Vashem Studies, which is certainly less reliable than some Crimean local newspaper. The few times I consulted RSN before, amateur historians, i.e. authors with no professional expertise in history, who never studied history, let alone held a degree in history, and who published with the most specialist and small publishing houses, even indulged in self-publishing, were routinely considered to be perfect RS. You know, these authors provided information so special that it could not be found in mainstream historical scholarship, so it must have been reliable. In other words, there is anything but a standard by which RS are evaluated at RSN and that's a problem. If the reliability of the blog posts is to be assessed, these posts have to be compared to the findings of established historical scholarship. It can't be done by a simple thumbs up or down after superficially looking at the credentials of the author. And if the blog has been approvingly cited by historical scholarship, as it has been, that's a strong sign for reliability.--Assayer (talk) 01:00, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh yes, the publication by well known author Lipkov (although he wrote books in a different subject area) who cited other experts (like Golovkova) in Kontinent is a lot better source than a post by an anonymous account on a blog. It does not mean that Lipkov is telling The Truth. It only means the source can be used per WP:RS. My very best wishes (talk) 01:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

For those of us who have only just tuned into this saga, could you link to the approving citation Assayer? --RaiderAspect (talk) 01:37, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Not sure what is meant by “approving citation”, but this[36] was seen as clearance of the source.[37] RSN discussions tend to focus on the credentials of the author of a source which should only be the starting point of the assessment process. That case was a case of oral history. Oral history is not per se unreliable, but historiography has developed a refined methodology of collecting, assessing and interpreting oral testimony. Even if we have testimony by a highly reputed historian with much experience in oral history, due to its form the source might not be completely reliable. Interviews a generally less reliable than written statements. Turning back to the case of the blog, it is important to note that it is dedicated to the refutation of Holocaust denial, something which historians usually don’t do, because such a discussion is pointless. The contributors to the blog, both amateurs and trained historians according to Terry’s own admission, wrote up a refutation of claims by Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf and Thomas Kues, all well-known deniers, which has been cited by historical scholarship. The Guardian named Terry “the UK’s foremost academic on the subject”[38]. That said, the posts on this blog should be dealt with for their own merits. The posts I have read can be verified and corroborated by other sources (undoubtedly RS). Thus, it’s not an outright unreliable source. In general, I would not use this blog, however, except when dealing with Holocaust denial itself. The English Wikipedia routinely uses references and links to editions of Holocaust denier’s works. I do not see why a blog devoted to debunking Holocaust denial should not be reliable for debunking.--Assayer (talk) 18:31, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

• In general blog posts by an established expert can be reliable sources per WP:SPS, yes. But the specific source under discussion here seems to be this, and it is not written by an established expert, and is therefore emphatically not a RS. It's just a blog post written by... someone, who we don't seem to have any info on. Not sure why we're even talking about Nicholas Terry and SPS when there's no indication that he's the author of the piece in question. Fyddlestix (talk) 03:54, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

@RaiderAspect: The story Assayer is talking about is described here, and its brief summary is as follows. Several secondary sources mention a story of a Soviet gas van that was used during the Great Purge. This story is based on one NKVD document that was published in Komsomolskaya Pravda in 1990. In addition to that, a couple of books exist where non-verifiable testimonies are reproduced, which tell about similar events in two Russian cities. In addition, we have an article in a local newspaper that was authored by a writer with unknown credentials. Of course, from the formal point of view, an newspaper article or a book are RS, according to our policy. However, as Assayer is correctly arguing, the article published in a local Ukrainian newspaper, which is authored by some unknown author seems much less trustworthy than the post in a personal blog of a professional historian who worked with Holocaust Memorial, and who is a history lecturer in a high rank British University. The same can be said about the book that uncritically reproduces some non-verifiable testimonies (actually, a memoir of a person who happened to hear a story told by a witness of alleged usage of Soviet gas van).

Please, understand me correctly: I myself prefer not to use blogs of that type, the problem is that that blog, which seem to be maintained and moderated by a professional historian, looks much more trustworthy, in terms of fact checking and accuracy, than such "reliable sources" as non-verifiable testimonies or an obscure local newspaper. The fact that the first type source does not fit our RS criteria, whereas the second type sources do means that something is fundamentally wrong either with our policy or with the way it is being implemented.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

• No, the story is not "based on one NKVD document that was published in Komsomolskaya Pravda in 1990". Not at all. This is WP:OR at best. "The article published in a local Ukrainian newspaper, which is authored by some unknown author seems much less trustworthy than the post in a personal blog of a professional historian". No, it is precisely another way around. An article published (not self-published) by well known Russian historian [39] in newspaper is a lot more reliable source per WP:RS than a blog post by unknown person. I am really surprised that Paul continue arguing otherwise. My very best wishes (talk) 15:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

As with too many of these discussions on this board, this discussion is spinning. Please follow the form set out at the top of this page; 1) What is the content you want in what article? 2) What is the source? If it is a blog post, post the exact url of the blog post. Thanks. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

• The content is as follows:

"The Soviet gas van story, in particular, Grigirenko's memoirs and Berg's case, is used by Holocaust deniers".

• The source is [this blog post.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:16, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Ohhhh. The actual post is by one "Sergey Romanov". I can't find anything about "Sergey Romanov". So he could be a 12 year old kid for all I know. He could be an agent of the Mongolian government. He could be a squeegee guy in Naples, Florida. He could be my cat. How is this possibly a good source, and huge trout to the person who started the thread, and stop doing that, kthx.

Sure I suppose if you squint really hard, you could say that technically the publication is edited by a "professional history" (that is, a history lecturer, not a professor or published author), but come on. Who the writer of the piece is very very important.

If you've got info on Sergey Romanov, present it, and explain why the internet doesn't have it. If it's a pseudonym, tell us who's behind it, provide proof, explain why they are using a pseudonym, and point to the credentials showing his expertise, carefullness, and lack of bias.

In future maybe make it a lot more clearer, e.g. "A blog post by an anyonymous person, or at any rate a person who has no credentials that I know of". Then we could dispose of the question more quickly. Herostratus (talk) 18:40, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

You are not completely right (I am not saying you are not right). It seems that the blog is moderated by the owner, who is a professional historian. If any teenager can post an article in this blog, then you also can do that, right? However, I couldn't find how to do that. That means this blog is kind of "by invitation only", which means Terry is screening potential contributors.

In addition, Holocaust deniers Terry is writing about are beyond the scope of mainstream scholarly community, and Terry's blog is among few sources that write about them. Of course, had this topic been covered by better sources, I would never raised this question, but in a current situation I have no choice.

By the way, Sergei Romanov cannot be "a 12 year old kid" because he seems to be posting at this blog since 2006, so he belonged to the group that gave a start to this blog.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:28, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

The appropriateness of any source depends on the context. So the question is not simply, who is the author, but is this an appropriate source for a certain context. I am ambivalent if Holocaust denial should be discussed in the specific article in question, because the reality of the gas chambers is nothing to be discussed. If you search for "gas van" on the Internet, however, a Holocaust denying publication is to be found among the top ten search results by google. Except for this blog I do not know any other source which tackles the problem and it does not help at all to make funny comments ad hominem to discard reliabity.--Assayer (talk) 19:39, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

No, the context is completely irrelevant. This is a blog post by unknown person. This is just a garbage on the internet in terms of WP:RS, nothing more. My very best wishes (talk) 22:36, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

• I don't think we should be using blogs at all, even in cases where they are written by a recognized expert. Policy doesn't necessarily agree with me on that. Obviously I think the policy should be changed. Blogs, even those written by experts, have zero editorial oversight and fact checking. Both these processes require multiple participants. If all you have, and what you are forced to use is merely a blog, then to my mind you've already conceded the DUEWEIGHT debate, even if the source is factually correct. GMG^talk 20:55, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Non peer-reviewed pre-print version of scientific paper

I have a question regarding this paper (linked below) by the geneticist Iosif Lazaridis. It seems to be a preprint, and I wondered whether this means it is not a reliable source (since that means it has not yet been peer-reviewed) https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full Thank you. Skllagyook (talk) 17:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind; I changed the section title to a more descriptive one in hopes of attracting more participation. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 20:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Skllagyook, If the paper is eventually published in some form, the preprint can almost certainly be cited. Obviously, it's preferable to cite the published paper but most academics would be considered experts for the purpose of WP:SPS anyway. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 22:13, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Fiamh, Thank you. I do not think the paper is reviewed yet (I cannot find a non-preprint version), but I would assume it will be and will be published in that form eventually. And it is by (among others) a pretty prominent and well-regarded population geneticist - Iosif Lazaridis - (whose other papers are cited elsewhere here). So is it ok to cite it even if it has not yet been published in non-preprint form? (I have just added it as a ref on two pages, but if it is not acceptable, I will, of course, remove the new material.) Thank you again. Skllagyook (talk) 22:57, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Skllagyook, checking what you cited it for I'm not sure this is a good idea. This is a new scientific finding that hasn't been peer reviewed or confirmed. I would hold off until Lazaridis publishes it. What I would do is remove the content from the article and copy it to the talk page so that it can be re-added if/when it is confirmed. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 23:15, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Fiamh, May I ask why it is not a good idea (since you had said earlier that sources from academics were acceptable)? Would it help if my additions to the pages summarized it in a somewhat shorter form with a bit less detail? Skllagyook (talk) 23:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Skllagyook, as I understand WP:SPS, it was more intended for general comments by experts on their subjects of expertise, rather than new findings. But it's possible that other editors have a different perspective on the guideline. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 23:55, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Fiamh, I see. Should I then wait for the opinions of other editors (to be added here) as well? Skllagyook (talk) 23:57, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

As a non-reviewed paper, which is what it is in this form, I would treat it as the opinion of the author(s). Having been through this process, a submitted paper might be accepted without change (Yay!), accepted with revisions, rejected pending revisions or outright rejected. If rejected the final paper that results from teh work may be significantly different than the pre-review work. The correct thing to do is wait until the paper is released before using it. Springee (talk) 01:10, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

As its not been published or peer reviewed it is just his opinion, it may be RS if he is a recognized expert in the field (note, not just someone who works in it).Slatersteven (talk) 08:17, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• Per WP:NODEADLINE, if it has not yet been properly reviewed and published but will be at some point, then there's no rush to cite it or to add any text to Wikipedia yet which does cite it. Why the rush? Wait until it's been reviewed and published, and then cite it. --Jayron32 14:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• We ought to consider just how extraordinary the claims made in a pre-print scientific or scholarly jounal are when evaluating its reliability.The controversy surrouding Felisa Wolfe-Simon's announcement she and her group had found a bacterium that used arsenate instead of phosphate in its nucleotides shows the danger of relying on pre-prints and other non-peer reviewed reports for our articles.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". It's worth waiting for at the very least peer-review of such reports. Science, in fact, did publish Wolfe-Simon's paper, but then later carried reports by researchers who had been unable to duplicate the results she reported independently. The current consensus is that the work Wolfe-Simon reported was procedurally flawed, accounting for the lack of independent confirmation by other groups. We're an encyclopedia, and our readers aren't looking for breaking news, but verifiable information. --loupgarous (talk) 23:58, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Jayron32, I assumed that it would be published eventually, but it has been at least a year now. Are all preprints eventually published in some form? I suppose I cannot be certain. Not being certain, is it okay to cite him since he is an expert in the field, or should I wait for the study to be published anyway? Thanks. Skllagyook (talk) 16:05, 26 October 2019 (UTC)Skllagyook (talk) 15:56, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Slatersteven, Iosif Lazaridis is an expert in the field and has published several important papers on population genetics, especially of ancient peoples of the Near East and Europe. Would this mean his source can be cited before it is published/reviewed (as I had cited it before), or is the general consensus here in this thread against that? Some links on Lazaridis for reference:

https://connects.catalyst.harvard.edu/Profiles/display/Person/115264

https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=eQmvmqQAAAAJ&hl=en

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Iosif_Lazaridis

https://www.ellines.com/en/achievements/37774-sheds-light-on-the-genetic-history-of-europeans/

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/people/iosif-lazaridis

Skllagyook (talk) 16:05, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Irrelevant, at best we might be able to use this based upon wp:sps, but as its a science paper that has not be accepted for publication or been peer reviewed wp:undue may also enter into it. A lot would depend on what it is being used as a source for.Slatersteven (talk) 16:09, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Slatersteven, I'm not sure I understand regarding wp:sps; the link to wp:sps leads to information of self published sources and what they are not acceptable (Why might this be a reason it could be used? Would it be the reverse?). It was being used (by me) in the Iberomaurusian and Natufian pages regarding the ancestral makeup of the those two ancient peoples. Lazaridis, in the 2018 paper, suggests that the Iberomaurusians were made up of two kinds of ancestry; with one kind from paleolithic Western Eurasians derived from the Caucasus (a population also ancestral to other Western Eurasian peoples in Europe and the Middle East) and the other kind from an ancient now-extinct population indigenous to North Africa. The Iberomaurusuian population is considered, in that paper, to have contributed to the genetics of the Natufian peoples of the Levant (as Lazaridis says, rather than the reverse as the earlier paper by Loosdrecht had proposed). If WP:UNDUE applied, one would, of course, not want to give it's description too much length or detail. Skllagyook (talk) 16:22, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Because it is the closest I can think of policy wise "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter,". I was not clear about my other point. What I meant was what do you want to use it to say?Slatersteven (talk) 16:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Slatersteven, I see. I understand now, thank you for explaining that re wp:sps (I guess I missed it). The guideline, "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications" does seem to (to me) apply to Lazaridis. What I wanted to use it to say was what I described above: something (on the Iberomaurusian page) along the lines of: that, the study suggests that the Iberomaurusians were made up of two kinds of ancestry; with one kind from paleolithic Western Eurasians derived from the Caucasus (a population also ancestral to other Western Eurasian peoples in Europe and the Middle East) and the other kind from an ancient now-extinct population indigenous to North Africa. And (on the Natufian page), something about the fact that the study suggests that, The Iberomaurusuian population (which may have had the above described origin) is suggested (by Lazaridis 2018) to have contributed to the genetics of the Natufian peoples of the Levant (both under the respective "genetics" sections of those pages). Skllagyook (talk) 16:42, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Problematic, as I understand it this is a copy of the paper that has not yet been submitted to peer review, but (I I read the what is pre-publication bit correctly) will be at some point. Thus it may be that once it has been peer reviewed its conclusions may change (or it may even be rejected). At the same time he is an expert and as such his self published opinions may be used in the way you wish ("according to..."). But (and here is the rub), he may well withdraw it after peer review, or significantly alter it. As such I would caution against using it, we are not a news paper and we can in fact wait until things become clear.Slatersteven (talk) 16:50, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Slatersteven, I suppose the proposed section(s) discussing the paper (if it/they were added to the aforememtioned articles) could later be altered, or removed, depending on/to follow the results of peer-review (whenever that occurs). Or is it better to simply hold off on adding it at all until (when/if) it is published? Skllagyook (talk) 19:48, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Hold off, nothing is lost by waiting, and a lot can be by not waiting.Slatersteven (talk) 11:06, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Slatersteven, Ok, I will wait/hold off then. Thank you. Skllagyook (talk) 21:48, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Jihad Watch, the Middle East Forum and "Global muslim brotherhood daily watch" in articles about Islam

We describe the first as an anti-Muslim conspiracy blog. Our article on the Middle East Forum is a bit equivocal but doesn't fill me with confidence, and I'm surprised that we call its founder Daniel Pipes an historian (yes, he once taught history, but that's not what he's known for - he's mainly a major critic of Islam). Global MB Watch is a one man band run by Steven Merley who worked for Nine Eleven Finding Answers Foundation whose senior consultant now is Evan Kohlmann and was evidently, according to his description of himself[40] the subject of praise by John Ware (TV journalist), described by the Guardian as "not quite public enemy number one for many British Muslims -"[41].

These sources are used in articles such as Wahhabism, Hani Ramadan and numerous others.[42][43][44] Doug Weller talk 14:08, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

MEF after 2009 become peer reviewed and have editorial control yes its partisan but we allow partisan sources per WP:BIASED --Shrike (talk) 14:11, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

The objection is not to partisanship. MEF, and the organizations it funds, actively foment Islamophobia, there is a long record through all of the venues it establishes and supports, and via all of the funding groups behind it, of militant antipathy as a driving force in a publicitarian cause. I don't think we should make an exception here. If MEF figures on a respectable site listing hate groups (Southern Poverty Law Center) as it does here, then it should not be used on Wikipedia. We have huge resources from Academic, government think tanks etc. on all of these Islamic movements. The latter are often problematical, qua partisan, but they have no stepped over into financing fear and fomenting anti-Islamism as the MEF does.Nishidani (talk) 16:56, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I would be concerned if we were using Jihad Watch as an authority on Muslim subjects, but from glancing at the internal search results, all of the citations that I saw were specifically citing it to support claims about the activities and opinions of anti-Muslim academics, which seems potentially acceptable. I haven't reviewed the other sources at this time. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:07, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

We don't use blogs, let alone conspiracy blogs, which is how Jihad Watch is described. This is every more so given its decidedly polemical anti-Muslim world view. Sensitive topics require optimal sourcing. Nishidani (talk) 20:26, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

We should not be using blogs at all, as Nishidani said. Furthermore some of these sources look pretty clearly like WP:FRINGE outlets and they should not generally be used as sources. Simonm223 (talk) 12:00, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'd agree that these look like fringe outlets. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:09, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure it makes sense to lump all three of these sources together. The Middle East Quarterly has been edited by Efraim Karsh, who has held academic posts at various respected universities. And I don't think the SPLC is the best authority on anti-islamic sentiment after its Majid Nawaz fiasco. Is there any evidence that MEQ is an unreliable source, making stuff up or stating incorrect facts? If it should be discredited it should be on those grounds and not because Wikipedia editors disagree with its POV. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 15:04, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

According to its h-index, MEQ is cited by other academic journals and ranks in the middle of similar journals by number of references to its articles. It gets cited by regular scholarly books, for facts. (Although it is criticized elsewhere for pro-American orientation, no evidence of unreliability is offered). I don't see any indication that MEQ is not a reliable source. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 00:48, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Not so sure this is reliable

While I was gnoming today, I saw User:Autismfacts. I noticed his first contribution was using primary sources so I removed it and left him a polite note explaining why this was reverted. It looks like he read the note and then added this contribution in. I looked at the webpage, and it really looks like it too may be non reliable. I checked here and didn't see it mentioned, so I figured I see what you all thought. Is that website reliable ? Necromonger...We keep what we kill 14:51, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Primary sources are perfectly acceptable so long as a person does not do any outside-of-the-source analysis. As near as I can tell, in your first diff, the source is only being used to verify a paraphrase and a quote, which is by definition is without analysis. A primary source is reliable for directly stating what is printed in itself. For example, if I said "The source XXXX states that "the Sky is blue", as long as those words are actually printed in that source, the statement is accurate and is correctly cited to the source that uses those words. That's a fine use of a primary source. It would not be a good source for stating in Wikipedia's voice, without direct attribution "The Sky is blue", and neither is it a source for stating "Because the Sky is blue, all of these other things must also be true". But for the simple matter of providing an attribution for a quote, it's fine to cite a primary source. --Jayron32 15:15, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

there is always the possibility of selective quotation. A group might publish a report, and not really liking the conclusions, then publish a summary or excerpt from it that is unfair or unrepresentative or presented in a biased context. We arre very carlessless in general in accepting quotations. DGG ( talk ) 16:22, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

This is why I pretty much always support only using quotes to point out very specific things that article is already talking about. For example, if an article has a section on a controversial tweet, quoting the tweet. Someguy1221 (talk) 11:26, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Is the first source primary?Slatersteven (talk) 11:11, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Sort of? I think it is best considered that "the event" is the lawsuit, and this is a primary document from that event. It is true that it includes an analysis of other sources, and in that sense may be considered secondary. But citing court cases is generally questionable, for a number of reasons. To begin, this is the opinion of a lower court at the state level, and so does not create any binding precedent; next, while it includes a secondary analysis that was informed by expert witnesses, this is not considered an expert publication in medicine, but in law; further, lawsuits happen simply because someone filed one, not because an expert thought it was something significant worth writing about - as with cherry-picking quotes, it would be trivial to cherry-pick lawsuits. If this had been a major, precedent-setting case that received a hearing before a State Supreme Court, circuit court, or SCOTUS itself, maybe. Or if this was something special and unusual and subjected to scientific rigor, like the Autism Omnibus case. Or if a section of a Wikipedia article is about the lawsuit itself, citing sources secondary to the case, then quoting the ruling could provide useful context. Otherwise this seems like a bad idea. Someguy1221 (talk) 11:26, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Except it is a legal judgement on the admissibility of evidence. Now I agree that we should not cherry pick law suits, but that is not an RS issue as such. I do not see how this is really a primary source, and seems to be a perfectly reputable legal journal. As such it passes RS, wp:undue is a separate issue.Slatersteven (talk) 11:36, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

It's a perfectly reputable legal journal that seems to have as one of its missions to publish as many full-text opinions as they can from state and federal courts in Massachusetts. In this case they simply republished the opinion as is - there is zero added commentary. I don't see how the journal could be considered a publisher rather than a host. Someguy1221 (talk) 12:26, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• The Problem here is one of context... A legal judgement is being used to balance a medical claim. A legal opinion can balance another legal opinion, and a medical opinion can be used to balance another medical opinion... but is it appropriate to mix law and medicine. Does doing so create a false balance? Blueboar (talk) 12:45, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• It is inherently unbalanced because only primary sources are used. A judicial ruling balancing an original research claim. Herbert's article cites only Herbert's own work to describe her research on the treatment of autism, and even though it is mentioned that there were three professional reviews of one of her books, the actual content of those reviews is not mentioned (in fact, two gave fawning praise, while the other was more circumspect). This is not an impossible task - Herbert's work is cited in literally dozens of medical review articles. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:41, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Movie Chambers and One Guys Opinion

I came across this website while looking for film reviews for an article, and it seems that while the sole reviewer there, Paul Chambers, has been creating film reviews since '86 for different news orgamizations (CNN among them), it would appear to fail RS as there appears to be no editorial oversight.
I also came across another film review site, "One Guy's Opinion" run by a professor History at the University of Dallas named Dr. Frank Sweitek. According to his bio on the site, "Under the initials FS, he’s been the film critic of the University News since 1988, has discussed movies on air at KRLD-AM (Dallas) and KOMO-AM (Seattle), and can now be heard talking about the week’s openings on KLIF-AM (Dallas) every Friday at 6:17am...He’s also the founding president of the Dallas-Fort Worth Film Critics Association, a group of print, broadcast and web journalists covering film in the Metroplex, and a member of the Online Film Critics Society. His reviews are also included on the Rotten Tomatoes website." Again, an apparently well-read reviewer, but a website without editorial oversight.
Thoughts? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:02, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Who is allowed to write reviews for Rotten Tomatoes?Slatersteven (talk) 08:50, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

I have no opinion one way or another except to note that, per WP:SPS, self published sources are not entirely forbidden; in general self published sources by recognized experts in a particular field are generally thought carry the reputation of the expert and thus be reliable on their own without additional "editorial oversight". If a person were a recognized and well regarded expert in the field of film criticism, their own self-published works may be reliable. --Jayron32 14:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Also, of note here, is the purpose of the citation you are looking to make from these sites. A self-published source is a perfectly reliable source for quoting itself. Every source reliably quotes itself (self-evidently). If the text you are quoting is actually in the work you are citing, the work is perfectly reliable for that purpose of providing the quote itself. However, if you are asking if the person who wrote the quote you are reproducing is, themselves, worth quoting, that's a different question. In the case of film reviews, it isn't reliability (after all, a person should be self-evidently reliable in correctly reporting their own personal feelings about a film), but rather things like WP:UNDUE; it isn't that we don't believe the person actually had the opinion of the film they themselves wrote on their own website, it is whether or not that opinion has widespread acceptance by mainstream sources to be considered due weight for us to quote it. So, if you're citing the source because you want to quote or paraphrase those reviewers opinions about a movie, it isn't reliability that's the issue (we trust the people to reliably report their own opinions on their own websites) it's a question of whether or not they are even worth listening to on the matter. However, if you are trying to cite facts about the film in question which are not in other sources, that's a completely different thing. --Jayron32 14:31, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

I understand that it isn't forbidden to use SPS, but I don't recall ever seeing a GA- or FA-quality article with a SPS in the references. The movie I am developing is a foreign one, which means a lot of sources in English are going to be hard to Google on up. Additionally, a few sources have vanished due to one reviewer website (Film Journal Int'l getting gobbled up by BoxOfficePro). Its not leaving me with a lot of standard sources to draw upon. I hate using sources that will get snipped during a GA/FA eval. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:11, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

I think it's perfectly acceptable to use self-published sources for their reviews of films and books, provided, of course that the author has some reputation or expertise as a reviewer. I don't think editorial oversight is that important when you're using the source purely for the attributed opinion of a critic. The fact that this Paul Chambers has been published in multiple different reliable sources indicates that his opinion is noteworthy and might be worth including. Same thing with Frank Sweitek. They could even be okay for basic factual information about the film, especially if there's a lack of other English-language sources, though not for anything controversial or that has BLP implications. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 06:12, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Except we only have his word he has been published on multiple rs, nor do we know context ("and tonight on WBKRKRNSP we talk to three members of the public about the new film by Bert Terrible".Slatersteven (talk) 08:00, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

A quick Google search confirms that he isn't an empty hat; Chambers has indeed worked for CNN (1) as well as everywhere else he claims. Sweitek also appears to be the real deal. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

It was just the reference to Rotten Tomatoes that made me wary, normally people who are respected experts do not have on their CV "and Wikipedia".Slatersteven (talk) 09:14, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

I get it, and understand. I just went a little deeper than just checking RT. Carry on. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:44, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Database of 18,000 Retracted Scientific Papers Now Online

"Retraction Watch Database is designed expressly for finding out whether any given study is still legit. The next time you read an article or hear someone say, "studies show that talking is bad for you," you can head over to the site and see what's what."

• https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/science-questions/database-18000-retracted-scientific-papers-now-online.htm
• http://retractiondatabase.org/

--Guy Macon (talk) 07:48, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Guy Macon, Nice! See [45] for one well known author. Guy (help!) 12:12, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

I think this should go to page Retractions in academic publishing. Anything similar on plagiarism? I know there is Dissernet. My very best wishes (talk) 00:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Encounter Books and Adler & Adler Publication reliable?

Article: Ruhollah Khomeini

Text in question:

"Khomeini told the Muslim faithful that marrying a girl before she begins menstruation was a “divine blessing.” “Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.”

Sources:

• "Khomeini called marriage to a girl before her first menstrual period “a diving blessing,” and he advised the faithful: “Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.” This practice continues to this day, despite the severe injuries girls often incur from early intercourse and childbirth. Encounter Books

• ""In many of his works Khomeini himself strongly recommends pre-menstruation marriage as "a divine blessing." "Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house," he write in Tawzih al-Masayel"Adler & Adler Pub

Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 17:18, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

• I would be wary of using Robert Spencer as a source about any thing Muslim. If its relevant or factual a better source would have mentioned it.Slatersteven (talk) 17:22, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
• Stefka Bulgaria, where are you seeing the quote? That being said:-
  An Islamophobic polemicist is definitely not a RS for anything related to Islam. And his views shall be always used with necessary attribution and that too, iff other sources have covered his views on the issue. That the work has been published by a conservative publication fora, which deems every review-outlet from Kirkus to NYT as biased against them just lends to the case for not using it, at all.
  Adler & Adler has published about ~50 books in the 80s. No repute as a press, going by the credibility of most of their authors and lack of publication-reviews. Now, the author is highly controversial and has been earlier caught outright fabricating Khommeini's quotations. An emphatic no. ∯WBG^converse 18:07, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Encounter books (page 48), Adler and Adler (page 35). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 18:20, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Being "conservative" or skeptical of Islam does not an unreliable source make. What's concerning here is that the authors do not have a high reputation for accuracy and the Encounter itself seems like, at best, quite polemical in tone; it publishes self-described "broadsides". Pro-Iran disinformation is also something to be on the lookout for. I'm not sure about these exact quotes, but there are other sources describing Khomeini's encouragement of pedophilia. See, eg. this UN report (pg. 2). Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 18:40, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Wot? An outright polemic Islamophobe, per a bunch of scholarly sources, does not a reliable source make. ∯WBG^converse 05:16, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

True, but when they also have a reputation for falsehoods its does. It just saves time to point out their view of Islam is so negative it (basically) is a false view (and falsity a non RS does make).Slatersteven (talk) 11:08, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I would go with UN report (link by Fiamh above): "According to the ... Ayatollah Khomeini, sexual experiences, with the exception of intercourse, are permitted with girls of all ages. He hasissued a fatwa (religious edict): “Anyone who has a wife less than nine years of age is not allowed to engage in sexual intercourse, whether she is his permanent or temporary wife. However, other forms of sexual pleasures are permitted, such as..." The text after changes reads pretty much pro-Iran regime. My very best wishes (talk) 01:02, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

http://utahrails.net and http://rrpicturearchives.net

As used in EMD MP15AC, but not limited to that article. These appear to be fan pages each curated by an individuals and they're extensively used in numerous train related Wikipedia articles. Are these good to remain as sources or external links? I am thinking that they might fall under WP:SPS or WP:ELNO. Graywalls (talk) 20:33, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

External links do not have to be reliable. Open wikis are OK as long as they are reasonably established. They should not be used as sources because of WP:UGC. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 02:27, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't think fan sites belong as external sites either, per WP:ELNO "Blogs, personal web pages and most fansites (negative ones included), except those written by a recognized authority. (This exception for blogs, etc., controlled by recognized authorities is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities who are individuals always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for people.)" Graywalls (talk) 03:10, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Fan sites are not acceptable as reliable sources or external links in my opinion based on the policies referenced above. – Daybeers (talk) 09:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

The mystery of Street Fighter II: The World Warrior's release date

So here's something I found on Street Fighter II: The World Warrior to be questionable. (For clarification, this is about the very first version of Street Fighter II, not Champion Edition or later updated games.) For the longest time, this page has stated the arcade version was release on Feburary 1991 (some specifically claiming Feburary 6, 1991), and looking at every corner of the internet, this seems to be generally accepted as the correct date. Except, according to the official information from Capcom's side, this is not true; the company's history page for investors states the release date is actually March 1991. This date is also retained (4m 48s) in Street Fighter 30th Anniversary Collection released in 2018, so I came to conclusion that it's reasonable to assume this is the right one.

Based on this information, I updated the page in accordance to the one listed in Capcom's official record. The user named Steelermajor then changed it back to the original date, citing these sources:

• https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0278746/ (iMDB)
• https://www.giantbomb.com/street-fighter-ii-the-world-warrior/3030-243/ (Giant Bomb)

These state Feburary 6, 1991 is indeed the correct one, but then again, they're both user-generated sites; I don't think they're enough proofs to disregard the date given by Capcom's products and websites. Currently I've reverted Steelermajor's edit because they didn't respond to my request on its talk page for a week, but I decided to came here for other editor's opinion about this. --Emiya Mulzomdao (talk) 12:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

IMDB is not an RS.Slatersteven (talk) 12:17, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

• IMDb (RSP entry) is user-generated content and should be avoided. The Giant Bomb game profile is an open wiki, which is user-generated and should also be avoided. Capcom's company history page is a reliable primary source in this context. From the sources provided, March 1991 would be the date to use. — Newslinger talk 12:27, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Attribution when facing square brackets in a quote

In a 2009 report by UK Home office's border agency we read:

According to the USSD Background Note of March 2008: [...] “The Iranian Government has faced armed opposition from a number of groups, including the MEK [cult-like terrorist organisation Mujahedin-e Khalq, People’s Mojahedin of Iran] (which the U.S. Government added to its list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations in 1999), the People’s Fedayeen, the Kurdish Democratic Party of Iran (KDPI), the Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan (PJAK), and the Baluchi opposition group Jundallah.” [4u] (Political conditions)

Essentially, UK border agency is quoting a piece from US State Department Background Note in 2008, but is adding a sentence in square brackets. The question is whether the content in square brackets, i.e. "cult-like terrorist organisation Mujahedin-e Khalq" should be attributed to the UK border agency or to the US State Department? In other words, is the bracketed content an interjection?(p.s. The matter has been discussed here, but we need more opinions)--Kazemita1 (talk) 13:01, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

The USSD, as the source is only being used as a source the the quote by the USSD, the UK boarder agency does not put it in their voice.Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

An article published in a local Ukrainian newspaper as a source for a history article

This source was already mentioned in the previous discussion devoted to the Gas van article, but it seems the idea to discuss several sources simultaneously was not good, so I am posting my question about this source specifically.

The source is a 2012 publication in a local Ukrainian newspaper. I failed to figure out credentials of this author. An interview in a Russian newspaper (which is a Human interest reporting) says he is a historian, but I failed to find reviews on his publications, and his books. Our policy says that mainstream newspapers are considered reliable sources, but I would like to know a third opinion if this publication is a mainstream newspaper article.

The statement this source is supporting is Gas vans were also reportedly used in other parts of the Soviet Union.

This question may be simultaneously a WP:V and WP:NPOV issue, because outstanding claims need outstanding evidences, and it would be good to hear a third opinion on whether such a publication may serve as an adequate evidence for such a claim.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:19, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Do we really need 3 active posts on the same noticeboard, about the same article? It suggests that whatever is going on at Gas vans is a bigger/thornier issue than a matter of a specific source's reliability. Fyddlestix (talk) 03:41, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Fyddlestix, unfortunately, yes. I realized that discussion of this concrete source separately would be less confusing and time consuming, and resolving this issue would be a first step out of an impasse.

In particular, I would like to know if my understanding of WP:NEWSORG is correct, and if such sources are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:49, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• An RS and can be used, especially with attribution to author. I think the source is OK because the author (Sokolov) is a historian who published, for example, this book. A lot of info about him, including other numerous scholarly publications, can be found here. This is an interview with him in one of major Russian newspapers. According to introduction by 3rd party, "Dmitry Sokolov is a historian from the city of Sevastopol. Since 2007, he has published many history articles in journals, and since 2013, he has been publishing monographs annually on various periods and aspects of the tragic events that began in 1917 on the land of Tauris." This is all in Russian. The article in question was published (not self-published) in a newspaper. The article is clearly a secondary source because it summarizes claims from books by Petro Grigorenko, ru:Шрейдер, Михаил Павлович and several others. Yes, as Paul tells, one of his summary statements was that gas vans were also reportedly used in other parts of the Soviet Union - because such cases have been reliably reported in books by Grigorenko, Shreider and yet another author cited in the review article by Sokolov. My very best wishes (talk) 03:50, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
• Comment Is there any evidence it has a poor reputation for fact checking?Slatersteven (talk) 09:11, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: if I understand it correct, this works in an opposite way: an evidences of a good reputation and fact checking should be presented per WP:BURDEN.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:20, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Always been unsure, as its hard to prove that where as it is easy to show it does not have one. So I tend to err on the side off "it has a good reputation because it does not have a bad one".Slatersteven (talk) 17:55, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: it seems you still don't understand. Our policy says Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include (...) Mainstream newspapers. That means want to see a proof that this newspaper is a mainstream newspaper, because otherwise it cannot be considered a reliable source.

Moreover, the newspaper page where Sokolov's article is published has a disclaimer that explains Sokolov's opinion does not necessarily reflects the editorial board's opinion. Therefore, this publication is more like op-ed, and, per our guidelines, it should be considered reliable primary source for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact.

Is my understanding correct?--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:56, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

I cannot say if it is mainstream I am not Ukrainian (but I see nothing to indicate it is not), as to your second point, correct so we attribute.Slatersteven (talk) 19:03, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

That is an interesting approach: does it mean that every newspaper is considered mainstream unless the opposite has been demonstrated? If yes, that fully contradicts with my understanding of our policy.

Regarding your the second answer, "attribute" ... to whom? What are credentials of this author? Had he authored any book or article that was published by some reputable publisher or scholarly journal?--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:12, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, sure, see the link to his book above; he has many other publications noted in another link. Also, this is not "news", but an educational publication about the past by historian. How this article can be a "primary" publication if it is entirely based on other sources, primary and secondary? My very best wishes (talk) 19:05, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

There is a page about this newspaper on ruwiki, ru:Крымское эхо, and it does not tell anything bad. My very best wishes (talk) 18:26, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

So, speaking of the three meanings of a source [46], (a) the article itself is OK (it claims nothing extraordinary, but simply summarizes what other sources on this subject say), (b) the author is fine, an established historian based on his publications, and (c) the newspaper is obviously not a scientific journal, but this is just an article on history for general public, enough to reliably document whatever author tells. Also, the newspaper is located in Crimea where author apparently lives. At the time of publication, it was a Russian language Ukrainian newspaper (as Paul tells), but it was expropriated by Russia in 2014, together with peninsula. My very best wishes (talk) 15:13, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• I am hesitant on this one, just because I have seen a considerable amount of historical misinformation in newspapers especially the more minor ones. It is reliable for the fact that the author wrote it, but I wouldn't take it much farther than that. I doubt that editors are in a good position to vet such claims—especially if they put a disclaimer on it! Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 19:07, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Unless I am mistaken, Paul misled us by saying: newspaper page where Sokolov's article is published has a disclaimer that explains Sokolov's opinion does not necessarily reflects the editorial board's opinion. This is not a disclaimer for this specific publication. This is a disclaimer at the very bottom of the website which goes everywhere: Ответственность за точность изложенных фактов несет автор. За содержание рекламных материалов редакция ответственности не несет. My very best wishes (talk) 19:13, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Since English Wikipedia users are not expected to know Russian, below I reproduce the disclaimer in full

"При перепечатке и цитировании ссылка(гиперссылка) на "Крымское Эхо" обязательна. Точка зрения авторов может не совпадать с точкой зрения редакции. Ответственность за точность изложенных фактов несет автор. За содержание рекламных материалов редакция ответственности не несет. Материал, обозначенный (R), публикуется на правах рекламы."

Google translates it as follows:

"When reprinting and citing, a link (hyperlink) to the Crimean Echo is required. The authors' point of view may not coincide with the editorial point of view. Responsibility for the accuracy of the facts presented lies with the author. The editors are not responsible for the content of advertising materials. Material labeled (R) is advertised."

In my opinion, the statement in bold is exactly what op-ed means.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:47, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, this is a disclaimer at at the very bottom of the website which goes on all pages, right? But you made it appear as a disapproval of the article by Sokolov [47]: "newspaper page where Sokolov's article is published has a disclaimer that explains Sokolov's opinion does not necessarily reflects the editorial board's opinion". The disclaimer does not say anything about Sokolov or his article. My very best wishes (talk) 19:53, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• Comment Reading this source, it looks totally unreliable. It's written in a sensationalist and politicized rather than academic or historical style. My Very Best Wishes has found two links [48][49] showing that the author Dmitry Sokolov has a presence somewhere on the Russian-language internet, but his lack of connection to English-language academia makes it impossible to verify his credentials, importance, and suggest he's not a well known journalist or historian. The paper he's written in is not a major / flagship or internationally recognized publication and I can get no information about it in English.

In short, nearly every red flag one could conceive of is present here. I thought that in these topic areas, we were supposed to use the highest quality academic sources, with an emphasis on English-language sources. By contrast, this feels like scraping the bottom of the fringe barrel in one of the darker and more remote recesses of the internet. -Darouet (talk) 19:53, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

No, it is simply written as an article for general public, not as an academic paper. This is a newspaper, not an academic journal. But the newspaper and especially the author still qualify just fine per WP:RS. That's the policy. My very best wishes (talk) 19:59, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• Irrelevant. The topic area is under strict sourcing restrictions;[50] local newspapers need not apply. François Robere (talk) 20:21, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

I wish you were right, but, alas, The Great Purge is not under this restriction. Only Nazi gas van topic, and only in part related to Poland falls under that restriction.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:26, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• Comment It should be noted that this source is also used to argue that the primary sources quoted by this source (Sokolov), namely the memoirs by Shreder and Grigorenko, have to be quoted in the article as well. Whereas on this page My very best wishes writes that Sokolov claims nothing extraordinary, but simply summarizes what other sources on this subject say, they have frequently maintained on the talk page that Sokolov “discusses” the claims by Grigorenko.[51][52], and therefore these primary sources may freely be used. Upon Sokolov and the sources quoted by him they also base their conclusion that gas vans have been used “in at least three different cities” in the USSR.[53] [54] This conclusion is not supported by any other sources. Not using these sources they consider to be censorship.[55] [56]

This is an article on the Holocaust both in Poland and the Soviet Union. Gas vans were used at Chełmno extermination camp, e.g.. The whole epic discussion has emerged, because it has been maintained by some, that the "same" gas vans as were used by the Nazis were first used, probably even "invented" by the Soviets. A quote by journalist Yevgenia Albats, stating: "yes, the very same machinery made notorious by the Nazis - yes, these trucks were originally a Soviet invention, in use years before the ovens of the Auschwitz were built", has been vigorously defended, thereby effectively integrating the "Soviet gas vans" into the narrative of the Holocaust. I think that narrative is untenable and not supported by scholarly sources, only by fringe sources like Sokolov, but those who connected the "Soviet gas vans" to the Nazi gas vans should not deny that they intend to suggest that very connection. Applying the source restrictions would certainly clear things up a bit. --Assayer (talk) 20:53, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

To that, I would add that one of the most renown historians writing about Stalinism, Wheatcroft, clearly writes that the claim that gas vans were used during the Great Purge is "sensational", and it needs further confirmation (Stephen Wheatcroft, The Scale and Nature of German and Soviet Repression and Mass Killings, 1930-45. Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 48, No. 8 (Dec., 1996), pp. 1319-1353). Therefore, the statement that Sokolov's article contains nothing extraordinary directly contradicts to what a top quality reliable source says.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:19, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Regarding your "applying the source restrictions would certainly clear things up a bit", I asked EdJohnston to do that, and I am still awaiting for a responce.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:46, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• This is probably off-topic, but Yevgenia Albats is not only a journalist, but also a political scientist who received her PhD degree in Harvard University and taught in a number of other Universities. More importantly, she is a top expert in Russia on the KGB subjects; she worked as consultant for the Russian Duma commission to examine KGB involvement in Soviet coup attempt of 1991. This is all described in her book used on the page. Also, "same gas vans" is the narrative by almost all sources that mention both Soviet and Nazi gas vans, for example, by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, and yes, also by Petro Grigorenko and Sokolov. Sources on the Holocaust usually do not mention Soviet gas vans simply because Soviet gas vans were not a part of the Holocaust, quite obviously. My very best wishes (talk) 21:28, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Sources on the Holocaust usually do not mention Soviet gas vans and so forth - that's exactly the reason why the sources who "mention both Soviet and Nazi gas vans" are WP:FRINGE. And saying "almost all sources", one should note that the majority of scholarly sources on "Soviet gas vans" do not mention Nazi gas vans at all. The fringe character of the whole subject is the reason why you have to turn to an article by a virtually unknown local historian in a Crimean newspaper in the first place. To insist that an otherwise insignificant aspect of the history of gas vans should be exempted from the strict sourcing restrictions otherwise applied in the very same article is inconsistent, confusing and leading to distortion.--Assayer (talk) 09:46, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

"Sources on the Holocaust usually do not mention...". Sure, that's why we do not mention Soviet gas vans on the page Holocaust, but only on page Gas vans. My very best wishes (talk) 10:08, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

The Holocaust#Gas vans refers to the "main article" Gas van. So the latter article is very much within the scope of the topics under source restruction.--Assayer (talk) 17:23, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

• Comment Why even use newspaper article (or op-ed), when there are plenty of peer reviewed journals and books devoted to this part of the world/history? If you want author´s opinion, simply use higher quality source he wrote on the same topic. Pavlor (talk) 06:55, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, sure, one can easily skip this source and simply use books by Yevgenia Albats, Petro Grigorenko, Shreider and others. However, Assayer and Paul want to remove claims by almost all RS about it (see here; actual edits on the page [57]), and replace them by a blog post by unknown person (see here). My very best wishes (talk) 10:03, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

This is not the place to discuss content dispute.Slatersteven (talk) 10:08, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

It's absurd to use this source for Russian Communism, which is one of the most studied and documented topics in the world. Imagine writing an article about the American Civil War or Amundsen's journey to the South Pole and using a village newspaper in Spain as a source. This is clearly cherry-picking, choosing an obscure source that presents information not accepted in mainstream scholarship. TFD (talk) 06:26, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Ros Barber

From the article: "Her 2008 poem "Material" appears in England's current school sixth-form syllabus.[2]" This is the ref. I know very little of England's educationsystem or Pearson, so my question is: does the ref support the claim? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:07, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

It's likely accurate, but it's a primary source so shouldn't be used anyway. Guy (help!) 12:09, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

• Actually, I think this is a good use of a PRIMARY source. It's Due for inclusion because most poets are not on the syllabus and it's a simple verifiable fact not subject to interpretation. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 14:50, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Fiamh, assuming this source supports "appears in England's ... school sixth-form syllabus", would you say it supports "current?" Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:47, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, No, I'd say "was on the syllabus in 2017-18". Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 16:34, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

californiabirthindex.org ?

Can anyone tell if this is a credible primary source for birth records, or if there is a better one?

In particular is an ongoing dispute if Jussie Smollett was actually born Justin. Or any other name.

Any help appreciated! Gleeanon409 (talk) 21:35, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

this is not a question of reliability. Primary sources cannot be used per WP:BLPPRIMARY. The policy is very clear. Slp1 (talk) 22:29, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

It’s foremost a question of reliability. If the information is from an unreliable source then I won’t consider using it as a reason to search for reliable secondary sourcing. If the source is accurate then it begs the question why the disconnect of what is true, verses what is being reported.

It’s been suggested Smollett, or someone, changed his name, although some states amend birth certificates maybe California does not. Gleeanon409 (talk) 23:08, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

The policy language could not be clearer: "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses."

If reliable secondary sources do not discuss the material, then it must be excluded by policy. "It’s been suggested Smollett, or someone, changed his name" is precisely the type of innuendo and rumor that has absolutely no place in Wikipedia, and this is a matter of policy that every Wikipedia editor is obligated to follow.Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:47, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I wasn’t looking to use it as a source per se, but to determine what is accurate in the many sources available.

Right now we are unable to reliably source any birthname so we’ve removed that from the info box.

At this point it seems he was born Justin, and Jussie is a nickname. None of which has been reliably sourced, but all of which have been ongoing edited into the article.

I figured there was something to it and wanted to get some resolution on the matter. Gleeanon409 (talk) 03:07, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

"Justin" should be excluded from the article until reliable secondary sources report it. The fact that one very reliable source withdrew the claim is a strong indication that the so-called birth name was probably an error. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:17, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Excluding ‘Justin’ for now is exactly what we are doing; because of this inquiry we are also removing the ‘birth name’ from info box because there is *no* source he was born as ‘Jussie’. ‘Jus’ is one of many nicknames for people named Justin, personally I feel this is the most likely explanation.

I’m convinced there’s at least one very good PR person at work on the issue, as can be seen on the article talk page. Gleeanon409 (talk) 05:16, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

FWIW: Sports Illustrated [58] refers to Smollett as "Justin." Foreign publications also refer to him as "Justin." Is SI a decent enough source? Collect (talk) 18:46, 30 October 2019 (UTC) Also [59] Elle which is likely also to be RS. [https://www.programme-tv.net/news/series-tv/224892-jussie-smollett-agresse-la-star-dempire-sort-enfin-du-silence/ ], [60] The Panther, how many are needed? Collect (talk) 18:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! I’ll post these to the article talk page. Gleeanon409 (talk) 19:11, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

catholicism.org

• catholicism.org  

This website is currently being used in 76 articles. It's published by the New Hampshire branch of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, a religious group with no official recognition from the Catholic Church. Here are some recent news articles about the group: [61][62][63]. While the SPLC's coverage of traditionalist Catholicism is generally incomplete and of poor quality (e.g., why do they label anti-ecumenism and sedevacantism "worse" than antisemitism? [64]), I agree with their characterisation of the New Hampshire Slaves as antisemitic[65]. Would it be appropriate to treat this website as an unreliable source for everything other than the views of the Slaves? Cheers, gnu57 05:49, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

A non-canonical Catholic institution is only going to be reliable for its own views. Actually, the same is true of official Catholic Church publications. But the latter viewpoint is much more important and likely to be appropriate for inclusion in articles. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 06:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Source for some quote that has no proof in material historical documents

In the article on Uskoks the following is mentioned, I quote "Large numbers of Serb fugitives from Bosnia and Serbia fleeing the Ottomans, joined the ranks of the Uskok bands " I read the book from Goffman Daniel and page where these Serbs are mentioned but there is no evidence for that claim(migration from Serbia or mention of Serbs) so i wonder what to do? These historians have stated it but it has not been proven by anything, otherwise it cannot be proven with nothing because there are no historical documents that mention Serbs in that part of Croatia except one document but these Serbs migrate to Slovenia. Two historians are factual evidence for Wikipedia however these historians tell fairy tales, what do I do? I started a topic on the talk page but i am wondering what else i can do, thanks.Mikola22 (talk) 18:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Mikola22, please take another look at WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:PRIMARY. It is perfectly acceptable (in fact preferable) to use reliable secondary sources for a claim without personally examining the primary sources used. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 19:38, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Maybe I didn't express myself well, there are no historical data of Serbs in the Senj area or that they are members of the Uskoks. How to use reliable secondary sources for a claim when they are not proven. It is as if they mentioned that Turks were Uskoks but there is no information about Turks been Uskoks. I suppose those historians quote some Serbian historians who are probably seeing Serbs there. Factual data says the following: "Determining the exact national or ethnic composition of the Uskoks from Senj is extremely difficult since is rarely recorded nationality of the Uskoks, (most commonly terms for Uskoks are "Croat", "Slavs", "Morlaks") It is difficult to actually determine the national and ethnic composition of the Uskoks, Venetians are described Uskoks as Croats, Habsburg sources also identify Uskoks as Croats. About a migration from Serbia to Senj we should not waste words for that. Do you now understand what this is all about?Mikola22 (talk) 20:30, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Mikola22, Yes, this is exactly what NOR is for. If you have a supposition based on evidence that published sources are mistaken, write a history paper on the subject and get it published in a peer-reviewed journal. THEN cite it here. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 22:05, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

But they do not prove it in their books because there is no evidence for that. We cannot based some fact on the statement of some historian which claim that the Uskoks are Serbs when there is no evidence for that. So i should write a scientific paper to refute it? But i cited scientific papers where Serbs are not mentioned as Uskoks. We have some new history that we didn't know about until now. So far we have not had a single historical record that talk about Serbs who are coming in masses to Croatia(Senj area) but on Wikipedia it says and everyone who reads that fact really thinks it's true. If someone starts write that the Chinese are coming to Croatia and that will be true because someone wrote it in their book. It's like quoting and put in wikipedia article clame of Serbian historian Jovan Cvijic who mentions White Serbia from where Serbs come to the Balkans, but there is no historical documents that mentions White Serbia. Do not tell me I need to write a scientific paper to refute that claim of Jovan Cvijić? Wikipedia is a great platform for Serbian propaganda because no one is looking for original evidence. If these claims start to be transmitted by foreign historians we will have some new history and we already have one. Croatian emigrants in America or Argentina when he reads about Uskoks in the wikipedia he will probably think that Senj Uskoks are and Serbs although there is no evidence for that, some citizens in Serbia will think the same. It's like reading a serbian wikipedia I quote "The Uskoks people were Serbs who fled from Ottoman territory to the border regions of Austria and the Venetian Republic." I have now stated that there is no historical information for that. Twilight Zone?Mikola22 (talk) 05:57, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

References