Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Incivility between Autodidact1 and The Rambling Man

• User talk:Autodidact1#MOS=Manual_of_shitty_typography
• Autodidact1 (talk · contribs)
• The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

I am an uninvolved administrator but I note that TRM has had arbcom sanctions before (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/The Rambling Man) and as I'm unfamiliar with this territory and whether any sanctions are presently applied to them or the other involved user, I would like input from other administrators about how to proceed here -- or if another administrator would like to take the reins, I would be totally fine with that.

Both editors seem to be engaging in incivility that crosses over the line into personal attacks, and the behavior I see from TRM (one example among many in this thread) in particular is exactly the behavior mentioned in the arbcom case ("[TRM] is prohibited from posting speculation about the motivations of editors or reflections on their general competence.") so it seems very likely that some action is needed here under WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, but I'm unsure what may need to be logged at WP:AE as a result. --Chris (talk) 00:40, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

That restriction was vacated in January 2020. You can review any active restrictions against an editor at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions. Any violation of an Arbitration Committee-imposed restriction would normally need to be discussed at WP:AE rather than WP:ANI, but given that TRM's only active restrictions are interaction bans with people who aren't Autodidact1, you're probably in the right place after all. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 00:45, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Maybe someone could give us a pointer as to what that two-monthlong bitchfest is even about? Just to provide context? —valereee (talk) 02:45, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

The original cause appears to be Autodidact1's dissatisfaction with MOS:FRAC's advice to use {{frac}} for fractions. He or she is of the opinion that "1/2" is preferable to "1⁄2" and is willing to ignore the MOS to enforce that preference. Compounding the situation is Autodidact1's tendency to be sloppy in doing so, changing (for instance) "6+2⁄3" to just "2/3" and "210+2⁄3" to just "2/3". Not helping matters is TRM's letting his understandable frustration with the foregoing get the better of him. Both editors could certainly stand to be less confrontational in their attitudes. Deor (talk) 04:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Deor: I haven't paid attention to the squabble, but "MOS:FRAC's advice to use {{frac}} for fractions" is a somewhat inaccurate summary of our guidelines. In fact MOS:FRAC says that for science and mathematics articles {{frac}} is discouraged, and MOS:MATH agrees with that discouragement. One of Autodidact1's recent frac edits (although not one involving TRM) is Trisomy X, which could be reasonably interpreted to be a science article under this guideline. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:27, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

As the writer of that last one, which is how this dispute got to my attention...I can't say I appreciated the edit to shrink the size of the fractions on a disability-related article (that is, one where poor accessibility to visually impaired readers is particularly ironic), nor have I generally been endeared to Autodidact1's odd, pushy style of copyediting articles that brush against the Main Page to his preferences. (I believe he drew the attention/ire of EEng recently for insisting Wikipedia:Contact us change 'via email' to 'by email', one of his particular bugbears.) I do not, to say the least, think TRM has made the worst moves of the pair here. Vaticidalprophet 11:09, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Actually I believe I displayed uncharacteristic restraint in that particulat interaction [1], but had I reviewed his contribution history he'd certainly have received a more severe correction. Nothing inspires me like pseudosophisticated stylistic pretension. EEng 02:39, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy to move on, after all I have reached my limit on being called a liar there many, many times. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 10:21, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

• It does seem very concerning that in refusing the adhere to MOS, Autodidact1 is also changing correct information to incorrect information. Autodidact1, I'm thinking you need a little more self-teaching? I'm wondering if maybe Autodidact1 needs to just stop "fixing" fractions.

Re: the incivility on both sides...ugh, TRM. Really? Your restriction was lifted less than six months ago. I get it that you're frustrated, but that discussion looks like you were just baiting him. You could have just provided the silly diff before the sixth time he asked. And AD1, instead of calling someone a lying SOB, maybe disengage and ask someone else to help you find the errors if you aren't sure how to find them yourself. For all TRM's faults, most of what he calls an error actually are. If he's reverting these kinds of edits, which are supposed to be changing only presentation rather than content, there's probably a reason. —valereee (talk) 11:44, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Why is there often so much heat over minor stylistic changes? I swear experienced users getting into spats over cosmetic issues is right up there with nationalistic disputes when it comes to heat generated. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 11:48, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Wait till you hear about cosmetic issues... by bots. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:55, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Sayeth Ritchie333:

One area the hit and run editor gets involved in is the formatting ... The quality of work has increased in some areas, which makes it harder to contribute without good knowledge in the subject matter and sources. Fiddling with the formatting seems to be a suitable alternative passtime.

EEng 05:07, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

These stylistic changes were apparently also introducing factual errors by changing correct information to incorrect information. —valereee (talk) 11:54, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, have you noticed the series of personal attacks levelled at me, being accused multiple times of being a liar? I corrected factual errors and asked the other user multiple times to stop and they responded with personal attacks and attacks on the MOS. Having said that, this is a storm in a teacup, neither me or the other user appear to have considered this a "civility" issue, it's just someone else trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Now the other user has stopped reintroducing the errors, that's me done. And no, the restriction was not lifted six months ago, that was explicitly related to DYK. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:59, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As well as the outright errors TRM (rightfully!) complained about, the edit to trisomy X served to replace the fractions with yet another form of fraction (not sure what Autodidact1's preference is, then, aside from "not the kind the MoS requests" -- is this just trolling?) that not only is outright deprecated for all articles (contra the "mathematics articles can use another form") but causes accessibility problems on account of how tiny the text renders. Broadly speaking, I am not in undying love with the MoS, but I think it rises above "shitty typography". The only edits more frustrating than copyediting to make an article worse because-MoS are copyediting to make an article worse in contravention of the MoS. They weren't even consistent throughout the article, he left the one in History untouched... Vaticidalprophet 12:02, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and he introduced errors there too -- rendered 164cm/5'4" as 172cm/5'7.5". Vaticidalprophet 12:08, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Going to bed, but I think there might be further issues with Autodidact1's conduct regarding copyediting, in addition to these repeated cases of anti-MoS fractions introducing errors. A warning on his talk demonstrates an incident of not only edit-warring to change BC/AD to BCE/CE in contravention of MOS:ERA (pretty much one of the most uncritically great parts of the MoS because of its role in stemming this kind of warring) but making grotesque personal attacks against people and their religions when called out for it. Vaticidalprophet 14:48, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I've dropped a warning on their talk page for personal attacks. I am also of the opinion that MOS wars are largely pointless and have no opinion on the underlying matter, but repeatedly calling another user a lying son of a bitch (even if you use "SOB") is just not ok. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:29, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox, there's a second and probably more important issue w/re: introducing errors in aid of "fixing" things that aren't actually broken. —valereee (talk) 19:11, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I just saw those comments on his talk page and that was clearly not ok. I don't consider the matter closed or anything, I just haven't dug that deeply into the rest of it. I'm also hoping they will find a moment to comment here to address some of this before doing anything else. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:24, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Copy-editing as a battleground

While The Rambling Man was clearly being an ass on Autodidact1's talk page, trying (successfully) to provoke a reaction, Autodidact1 has editing problems of their own, as a skim through their contributions shows:

According to Autodidact1:

• Using "via" instead of "using" is "vulgar": "Replaced the vulgar preposition 'via [sic]' with a descriptive verb, 'using'."
• Using "...he singled off Welch" instead of "...he singled against Welch" is "vulgar": "Replaced vulgar 'off [sic]' with appropriate, 'against'.
• "as well as" are vulgar words in Fargo, North Dakota: "In two paragraphs, replaced three vulgar words, 'as well as [sic]' with the correct one."
• They are an ornithological expert, and their knowledge is vital to the accuracy of I, Tonya: "That's not a 'parakeet [sic]'. Sloppy journalism. Looks more like a conure." and "An obviously careless description; not a parakeet. Do your research.", as well as this elaborate rationale for their edits.

Copy-editing is not a crusade against the vulgar forces of darkness, Autodidact1, it's a way to clarify communication and presentation of ideas.

(I know it's not within this noticeboard's remit, but I wish it were possible to ban Autodidact1 from constantly misusing "[sic]".) --Calton | Talk 01:09, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Anyone of common sense who is not part of a conspiracy to revert my edits would agree with me -- well, ain't that a fantastic line. Vaticidalprophet 02:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

He certainly knows a lot about vulgarity. EEng 02:41, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I was not being an ass (good personal attack though!). I was repeatedly asking the user to show some level competence by being able to recognise their own error-strewn contributions. I was asking the user to recognise we have a MOS and that, where possible, we should follow it. WP:CIR. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 06:09, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I was not being an ass

Spare me. Hell, spare all of us the act. How many times did Autodidact1 ask you an extremely simple question that you point-blank refused to answer? Five times? Six times?

I was asking the user to recognise we have a MOS and that, where possible, we should follow it

It's kind of hard to say that you're trying to teach someone something when you refuse to tell them what it is that they're supposedly doing wrong. You were trying to provoke him, and, frankly, you two deserve each other.

(good personal attack though!)

Descriptive language. Describing your behavior. --Calton | Talk 06:19, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

AKA Personal attack. Sure, but I couldn't care less. And if an editor who refuses to acknowledge MOS (which I told them about) and can't find their own errors, that's a lack of competence. Frankly, this, like that user's edits, is a gross waste of my time. As usual this place is full of people who think they're making a difference but who really aren't. Get to a conclusion and people can get on with their lives. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 07:49, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

IMO, there's no problem-in-the-ANI sense with your conduct here -- I would call it suboptimal, certainly, but I don't think it demands any sanctions. I think it's more just the general frustration many writers feel when people come around and tinker with articles for the worse, and that any good admin should be able to recognize it (and in turn that this is why so many people demand high-level content creation from admin candidates). I think Autodidact1's conduct is the important one here, and that there seems to be a sustained pattern of conduct problems stemming from copyediting. Vaticidalprophet 11:12, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Well only one of the two people who were dragged here was detrimentally editing Wikipedia, causing damage and disruption to our content and readers, and that individual has carried on doing it during this ANI. Meanwhile, some users feel obliged to take the chance to level personal attacks at me: instead of at the disruptive user's talk page where he personally attacked me half a dozen times, do it here instead! Anyway, as I said, unless someone wants to actually do something about the ongoing disruption to the encyclopedia, this thread is now a proper dramaboardz timesink. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:25, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

AKA Personal attack. So you think an accurate description of you is a personal attack. huh? Sounds like you could use a little self-perspective. --Calton | Talk 07:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

It's a personal attack. Obviously. Bye now. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 12:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

That's a strange new meaning of "obviously" I was previously unaware of. Your eccentric definition might explain your blathering on about "obvious" errors on User talk:Autodidact1. --Calton | Talk 10:50, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Are you still here? Deary me. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:10, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Now look, let's not get into it here. Everyone knows that TRM is one of the biggest ass-ets we have around here, and does a lot of good work. And speaking as one ass-et to another, TRM, you could have handled the situation better. But the only actual problem right now is that Mr. Autod is going around pissing on everything, hardly if ever improving things and frequently screwing them up. EEng 02:46, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

  Agree. I've tussled with TRM before but he was only mildly snarky this time, with provocation. The only behavior in need of action here is Autodidact1's. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:46, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

  No comment from him here yet, but... Vaticidalprophet 09:23, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

===proposed: Autodidact1 may not make edits against the MOS===

• Support as proposer. Since Autodidact1 seems to just be ignoring this, and since they seem to lack competence in doing so, I think we need to prohibit them from making edits against the MOS. —valereee (talk) 13:49, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
• Alt wording: Autodidact1 (talk · contribs) is banned from making stylistic or grammatical, or WP:ENGVAR changes to any article, broadly construed. This wording is similar to that TBAN imposed on Anthony22 (talk · contribs), to avoid haivng to judge if the edit violated MOS. They clearly have a habit of labeling styles as "vulgar" or otherwise improper, and some edits, such as Special:Diff/1017446054 at Brent Strom about MOS:FRAC, inadvertently changed factual information. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:06, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Rambling Man accused me of making errors to an article that I edited without any evidence or without a link to the supposed errors. He reverted my changes because they violated the MOS. He persisted in accusing me of making errors when I only changed the converted fractions on typographical grounds. He has now assembled a posse of editors who want to ban me entirely. I've made over 5,000 edits and only a handful have been reverted. Almost all of my edits are usage corrections or improvements to prose, such as rewriting sentences to remove clichés. Rambling Man is guilty of character assassination; he's the editor who should be sanctioned. My edits improve articles, not change facts or introduce errors. Autodidact1 (talk) 02:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

If, at this late date, you still think your edits don't change facts or introduce errors[sic], then there may be a WP:CIR block in your very near future.[sic] I suggest you move quickly to show that you recognize where you messed up article facts.[sic] (Hint: It's explained in this thread.[sic]) EEng 04:14, 26 June 2021 (UTC) [sic].

• The problem with "may not make edits against the MOS" is that no one on earth (or anywhere else, for that matter) has absorbed all of MOS -- it's beyond human capability, so there would need to be a warning issued for each new kind of transgression. I think Mr. Pizza's idea is better, though I fear it may be overbroad. A third formulation to consider might be Autodidact1 needs to cut out the half-baked pedantry. EEng 04:14, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

  Valid point. Maybe just a warning for disruptive editing, along with an explanation that introducing error in an attempt to "fix" what isn't broken is disruptive. At this point I think we could give an only warning, as Autodidact1 seems to be rejecting the notion that this introduced error. —valereee (talk) 15:29, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

  Ironically, all those giving me a hard time on this fail to note that in the very diff provided above, my summary was "actually changing the meaning of the sentences". If that wasn't clear enough for the user making the repeated errors to find, I call WP:CIR. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:44, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

  Ironically, all those giving me a hard time...

  And what makes you think anyone missed it? What makes you think that one bit was sufficient? Also, how, exactly, is it "ironic"? Is it like rain on your wedding day? --Calton | Talk 07:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

  I'm bored of this thread and the pointless point-scoring here. Have fun, I'm going to improve the encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 10:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not going to bold an oppose, but there is so much to the MOS (and frankly, some of it is unhelpful or even arguably wrong) that I'd be happier simply blocking them for CIR if they continue to make factual errors without any recognition that they are doing so. Black Kite (talk) 15:42, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Agree. Introducing factual errors while making stylistic changes is harmful, blockworthy incompetence, so much so that I'm even going to pass up this opportunity to give TRM a hard time–a difficult but justified sacrifice. Levivich 07:10, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• The problem with a blanket ban on MOS edits is that it's treating a symptom: yes, it'll stop the half-baked pedantry in that particular area, but it's no the only space where Autodidact1 exercises their unsourced certainty. Take their edit-warring at I, Tonya

• 07:14, June 22, 2021‎ Autodidact1 44,746 bytes +10‎ →‎Critical response: That's not a "parakeet [sic]". Sloppy journalism. Looks more like a conure.
• 20:46, June 23, 2021‎ Autodidact1 44,746 bytes +10‎ An obviously careless description; not a parakeet. Do your research.

Their response on my User Talk page It's a conure of some type, and if you looked at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conure you would agree with me, assuming, of course, that you actually saw "I, Tonya", which I doubt...".

However, the very lede of Conure includes The term "conure" is used primarily in bird keeping, though it has appeared in some scientific journals. The American Ornithologists' Union uses the generic term parakeet for all species elsewhere called conure, though Joseph Forshaw, a prominent Australian ornithologist, uses conure.

So this is someone who not only practices unsourced, self-assured pedantry, it's self-assured pedantry that that's contradicted by the source that they claims supports them. That's a WP:CIR issue at work. --Calton | Talk 07:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• Looks like Autodidact1's got a case of WP:ANIFLU. EEng 17:37, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

  Well that's easy when you're not being asked to explain anything nor being told that there's a definitive approach to your edits going forward. This case will be toothless and nothing changes right now. What's the proposal? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 21:11, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

  Ok, then... Autodidact1, do you recognize that many of your edits created problems and introduced errors? EEng 21:21, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

  The user continues to edit without responding here. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 09:06, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

• I commented at User talk:Autodidact1#Warning: collaboration is required (diff) and will review any claims of further problems. Johnuniq (talk) 10:09, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
• I thought the username was familiar when I first saw this thread - it's come back to me. I actually referenced my only interaction with Autodidact1 in my answer to Question 3 of my RfA (Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress?) The disagreement again centred on their dislike of the word 'via', and they used unnecessarily critical edit summaries to describe the use of the word here ("pretentious") and here ("lazy" and "stupid"). They did not respond to my talk page post here, in which I pointed out that the dictionaries and style guides that I turned to had nothing negative to say about the use of the word, and that it seemed entirely natural to me. I'm disappointed to see that they have continued to remove it, and to pour scorn on people who use it, based only on what appears to be a personal dislike of the word. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:31, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
• The user just repeated what they wrote here on their own talk page. This shows a clear lack of understanding of the issues at hand and an apparently complete lack of competence. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:24, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

  The user is still in denial about the errors they introduced (to whit: My edits improve articles, not change facts or introduce errors), along with their contra-MOS edits. Someone needs to explain explicitly as it's clear that competence is a serious problem here. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 07:16, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• We've already got several retired equerries late of H. M. Stationery Office wandering about the project grumbling about dashes and vulgarities and typographical monstrosities. We don't need another pompous Sir Scoldalot. He's shown himself stubbornly incapable of recognizing his own fallibility so I think an indefinite block is now in order. [sic] EEng 09:38, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Via con Dios? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:44, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• So the same person who berates other editors over word usage issues would have us believe that My edits improve articles, [sic] not change facts or introduce errors is good English? Sorry Autodidact, but if you're going to be a supercilious, self-appointed grammar cop, you're allowed zero mistakes of your own. I'd support an indef for competence reasons. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 05:57, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• Well, looks like Autodidact's ANIFLU has turned into ANICOVID. Can we please end this is [sic] an indef until he ackowledges the issues with his edits? EEng 04:32, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  ackowledges [sic]? Vaticidalprophet 13:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  Watch it or I'll sic my dog on you. EEng 15:05, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

  Perhaps they really are sic [sic]... The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 14:31, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  Mebbe. Just skimming this thread made me sic [sic] from the ick. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposal: indef block

Sometimes the community shows way too much patience in the face of patently obnoxious and disruptive behavior. This is one such case. The above thread (and its diffs) contain ample evidence that Autodidact makes careless mistakes in article space, refuses to follow the MOS, responds to criticism with juvenile insults and whataboutisms, and pulls a vanishing act when faced with the prospect of being held accountable. This is not something that we should tolerate any longer.

• Support as proposer. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 17:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support (indef block as an ordinary admin action, or community site ban; either way) for long-term disruptive pedantry, even after this thread was opened, with apparently no hope of change. See, e.g., this July 1 message as an example: [2]. We don't have time to follow and check their edits, at some point it just has to end. Levivich 17:52, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support a Site Ban at this point as a net negative to the encyclopedia, and who wouldn't stop digging when reminded of the First Law of Holes. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:46, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support either indef or site ban. EEng 05:37, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support indef as an ordinary admin action. And certainly support the closure of this long-lasting section at an ordinary admin's earliest convenience. Happy days, Lindsay^Hello 09:55, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support indef - clear net negative; would need a convincing unblock request to be allowed to edit again.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:10, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose ... for now. They seem now to be discussing things on their talk page. I think there is a chance they are beginning to understand things a bit better now. Their attitude aside, they do seem to make a lot of constructive edits. Paul August ☎ 17:45, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

  They're not discussing anything, just hitting out at others and denying any responsibility for errors introduced. WP:CIR. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:04, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support ordinary indef that can be lifted from an ordinary appeal to a sympathetic admin. I don't think the level of annoyance here justifies a site ban, and I don't believe the subject here could never be a productive editor. If the block gets lifted and he starts the drive-by pedantry back up, well, we'll be back here soon enough. Vaticidalprophet 06:19, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

<sound of crickets> EEng 05:19, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Note: Autodidact1 last edit was on July 2. Paul August ☎ 12:36, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it's called WP:ANIFLU. It's not unusual. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 12:42, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Maybe CHINAFLU? Or else just good sense! lol Martinevans123 (talk) 12:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support indef ban by community—Autodidact1 should have lived up to their user name by now. In a collaborative project, raising autodidacticism to a principle in editing and in relating to other members of this project is disruptive. Autodidact1 does not seem to take criticism on board easily (a few days after opening this complaint they blanked their talk page). Their participation in this boomerang is not showing understanding of why editors here find their editing problematic. This discussion is a time-sink. (Indefinite is not infinite). — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, him) 10:46, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Indeff. In their last post they seem to have said they'll no longer revert fractions. Ignoring previous "fraction" edits, then on reviewing their contribs I'm seeing about 80% +ve, 15% debateable & only 5% -ve (such as where they miss subtle incorrect changes of meaning they've introduced like here or where the abrasive nature of their edit summary outweighed a trivial improvement.) 80% good edits is better than I'd rate most. While TRM was in the right & their impatience understandable, their approach was non collegial. So it's easily forgivable that Autodidact1's response to the criticism was sub optimal too. The disruption here seems no where near severe enough to justify going straight to an indeff for an occasionally grumpy but useful gnome with no prior blocks. FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:33, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

  You missed the part where there was literally no comprehension, acceptance or regret for introducing errors while editing directly against the MOS while then engaging in countless personal attacks, right? I wonder why. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 18:40, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

  Unlike the Brent Strom edits where they clearly in the wrong, I dont blame Autodidact for the timewasting MOS contention. MOS is a big document with several subpages. Considering the gulf in experience between the two of you (Auto has < 4k edits) it would have been kinder to point out the specific part you felt they were violating. They did ask several times. I guess you were thinking of MOS:FRAC, but even that doesnt seem especially explicit in mandating {{frac}} useage. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:27, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

  Weird, he deliberately and wilfully violated MOS, knowingly so, and described it as the "manual of shitty typography". To claim some kind of good faith ignorance of what they were doing is patently absurd. And calling someone a lying SOB is find too I suppose. What a weird messed up place this really is. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 09:25, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  P.S. In the very first edit about this on his talkpage, the title of the section was MOS:FRAC. Good grief. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 09:34, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  As I said, MOS:FRAC doesn't seem to explicitly mandate using {{frac}} , though it certainly describes how to apply if editors make the choice to do so. Your claim that Auto was deliberately violating MOS seems false. (though I'll happily apologise if you can supply diff(s) that unambiguously demonstrate the opposite.) Auto repeatedly asked you to specify the MOS error, you just get doubling down on your dubious claim without specifying. Little wonder they eventually started to accuse you of lying. Even when you finally supplied a diff pointing out a specific mistake, the obvious error there was mathematical, not MOS related. Going back to the lying thing, if you wish to appear sincere, I'd suggest not repeatedly wishing an editor well, and then once it becomes clear you have some support on ANI, pivot to arguing for an indeff & badgering editors who dissent. FeydHuxtable (talk) 10:32, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  As you said, it was a clear case of WP:CIR and WP:NPA but yeah, just let it slide. I don't care about what happens to this user, but I do care when people make assertions that are simply bogus or give a perspective which is demonstrably one-sided. That's not badgering, that's simply correcting the record. I made no dubious claims, that's utter claptrap. The user repeatedly re-asserted the same edits containing the same errors, MOS and not MOS-related time after time after I gave warning after warning. But hey, let's just let people wilfully disrupt Wikipedia and make many personal attacks with impunity. Good one. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 10:44, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  At least nine more false assertions in that post. As you wish to let this slide I won't dwell on them. The one point I can agree on is you do seem to care a great deal about accuracy. Passion isn't always a +ve, but in your case it does seem to result in excellent content creation, for which you're much appreciated. FeydHuxtable (talk) 11:00, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The disruption doesn't seem bad enough for an indef yet.Jackattack1597 (talk) 20:44, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose indef for now. I'd support a block from article space, which might give this editor a chance to see which of their proposed edits are going to be seen as harmful and why. —valereee (talk) 12:16, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support per Vaticidalprophet. Seems to be a total time-sink, complete with a case of WP:IDHT. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 17:07, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose — Although TRM was indeed correct I’m opposing an indef For reasons predominantly covered by Valereee, and additional input by FeydHuxtable and Paul August. I feel an indef is a bit of stretch. I don’t see anything here a stern logged warning won’t solve. Celestina007 (talk) 23:38, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Move to close

Congratulations! Your request for closure has advanced to within one month of the front of the queue!

Please can we see the back of this? There's clearly a split community here, which means the result should default to the status quo. There's nothing practical to be gained by continuing this thread. Warnings, stern, logged, or otherwise are irrelevant, no interaction with the user over the past week or more means this is a waste of community time and energy. Please let's move on. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 18:33, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

As long as I still get full pay for joining your posse. I don't cabal for free you know. Levivich 19:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Just let Rambler treat you at Claridge's. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:01, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Filed at closure requests. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:12, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive edits on Nubia (character) article by Benicio2020

Over a period of the last 3-4 weeks, Benicio2020 and I have been involved in a conflict that is starting to know no end. Beginning on 31 May 2021, I have made 14 edits to the Nubia (character) article, most or all in the Nubia (character)#Long-term publication absence which is the particular area where Benicio2020 and I have have been having a conflict.

Benicio2020’s first edit on 19:38, 31 May 2021 was a simple revert, that deleted all of multiple interconnected points, in which he/she 1) claimed that it was all original research 2) neglected to contribute any discussion beforehand 3) did not attempt at salvaging anything or 4) did not attempt to add any references (which were already in the article or related articles that were wikilinked-to) that were relevant.

After a simple un-reversion by me, my very next edit on 03:55, 3 June 2021 showed improvements on my part with the addition of 3 references for a medium-sized paragraph with less than 100 words. This was followed up by Benicio2020 the very same day (3 June) in a series of 6 edits over a period of 4 minutes, beginning at 13:57 going to 14:01. Some of these edits included what I would call rather petty quibbles over language choice, including an objection to my using the word “full” in a quote “a full twenty years” in reference to a publication gap for the subject’s publishing history (actually, 19 years and 11 months), although I later did make this more technically correct by further qualifying the statement. It was also in this series of 6 edits in one edit on 13:59, 3 June 2021, when Benicio2020 1) started a series of contentions of his/hers over a particular item of material by calling into question the reliability of the cited source for that material and 2) deleted additional material without any explanation whatsoever.

In the next edit I made, on 18:05 4 June 2021, I changed the source from the one Benicio2020 objected to, to the primary source which, for this intent and purpose, was the best possible source. Benicio’s next edit on 20:15, 4 June 2021 was 1) a simple reversion 2) with the rationale that I was introducing opinions into the article and sourcing them to the new (primary) source, taking contention with the exact same material 3) in which he/she continued to delete accompanying material without any rationale, whatsoever.

Since that time, Benicio has undone that work a total of 5 more times (including 3 simple reversions) without once ever having demonstrated at all that he/she has done any fact-checking on the particular item of contention, despite on 22:06, 4 June 2021 on the article’s talk page, my calling to his/her attention on 22:06, among other things “Not even an hour-and-a-half went by between my making that edit and you 1) deleting some material for no stated reason, whatsoever, and 2) making a deletion without any demonstration of consulting a source to determine its relevancy” (something that he/she has continually repeated to do). I reminded him/her again on the article’s talk page on 19 June 2021 that an editor must fact-check, linking to Wikipedia’s fact-checking policy and citing that she/he “h[ave] the responsibility of fact-checking Wikipedia's content” before he/she can start to make a contention about the applicability and relevance of a reference to the material it supports in the article.

Benicio2020 has made repeated claims that I am injecting opinions, but how can somebody claim material in an article supported by a reference is an opinion if they have repeatedly and consistently refused to demonstrate that they have consulted that reference, themselves?

Also, after my 18:05 4 June 2021 edit, and after I made the explanation that I mentioned on the article’s talk page on 22:06, Benicio2020 made 3 more reversions over the next 24 hours (curiously enough, stopping just one edit short of the 3-revert rule), all the while completely neglecting to engage with my discussion on the article’s talk page.

Throughout all 5 of his/her reversions/edits since my edit on the main article on 18:05 4 June 2021, not only has Benicio2020 refused to demonstrate, every single time, that he/she has consulted the source to be able to argue the relevancy and applicability of the source to the corresponding material in the article, he/she has also, in all 5 edits, deleted other material for which he/she has failed to articulate any reason for deleting.

Can I please have an administrator’s oversight on this?

ETA: Sorry. Forgot to sign. QuakerIlK (talk) 05:58, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

This is a fairly simple case of QuakerIlK continuing to add their opinion to the article, in various phrases, while sourcing those phrases to a comic book (a primary source). I removed it because it is Original Research according to WP:OR. QuakerIlK has ignored me when I pointed out that you can't add your own personal interpretations of primary sources to articles. Benicio2020 (talk) 16:28, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

This is a fairly simple case of Benicio2020 failing to demonstrate him/her having fulfilled their basic editorial responsibility of undergoing basic fact-checking to determine whether the material a source supports in an article is actually an opinion. Benicio2020 fails to grasp that visual evidence is more proof of a person's appearance (and cultural identity association) than mere text is. If I were to use somebody else's written opinion (a secondary source) on what the character in question (Euboea) looks like, THAT would only be an opinion. Visual proof is more authoritative, *especially*, in this case, if it is a primary source. Additionally, Benicio2020's rationales for reversions/deletions are inconsistent. On top of that, Benicio2020's reversions and deletions include deletions of additional material, beyond the debated appearance and possibly resulting cultural identity association of Euboea, for which he/she has failed to ever even once articulate a rationale.

I could be more helpful and more directly supply evidence to illustrate that the material in the article is accurate, making more irrefutable than ever any disagreement, but according to Benicio2020's rationale, which is faulty to begin with, there isn't anything I can provide OTHER than opinions, (because he/she actually wants text opinions from secondary sources to prove what the appearance and/or ethnic looks of Euboea are), which directly contradicts more objective and irrefutable evidence ever being applied, which puts me in a lose-lose position in Benicio2020's eyes, no matter what I do.

I think with an administrator's proper oversight, this could be solved very easily, but I have already spent too much time and energy on this matter to further invest more time and energy only to have the contribution I have made be negated for no good reason. If I can be provided with either an administrator's written advice as to how to proceed in order to properly support the material in the article OR if Benicio2020 would care to realize that he/she is putting me in a lose-lose situation because he/she fails to understand when/why different categories of sources are applicable, then I am more than happy to proceed. QuakerIlK (talk) 23:14, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

If I were to use somebody else's written opinion (a secondary source) on what the character in question (Euboea) looks like, THAT would only be an opinion. Visual proof is more authoritative, *especially*, in this case, if it is a primary source This is absolutely the opposite of how Wikipedia works; we use established, reliable secondary sources. OP is a pretty clear case of an editor failing to understand WP:OR and pushing their interpretations of source material (or interpretations/claims sourced to fan wikis) in the article. Suggest QuakerIlK familiarize themselves with the relevant policy, because they are fully in the wrong here. Grandpallama (talk) 15:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

"[A]bsolutely the opposite of how Wikipedia works", Grandpallama? Your statement is both reductive and extreme, (in other words, wrong), and whereas you absolutely fail to quote any specific policies, I will not fail to do so. As per Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources, "Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. Although they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations". Furthermore, as per Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources, "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources." Additionally, that section states "primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia", and "[a] primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts". (The primary source I ended up using that got reverted/deleted 5 times by Benicio2020 was an excerpt from a issue of the main series of the Wonder Woman comic book, published by DC Comics. It is 100% relevant to the article and the publisher is DC Comics, which was, at the time of the publication of this source in particular, A Warner Communications Company.)

As for the material, itself, fine. This shouldn't be necessary, but perhaps because of the audience, it is. Perhaps visual proof would help more than a bunch of text. Benicio2020, are you really going to claim, in light of this visual, that it is only an opinion that Euboea's “looks suggest perhaps East Asian or Hispanic ethnicity, rather than Caucasian ethnicity”? This is not an opinion, it is “straightforward, descriptive statements of facts”. Frankly, in light of this visual evidence, I could easily issue a stronger, less qualified statement.

If you don’t believe the context/sourcing, here is a video proving that this is from the stated source. [3]

Again, this is not how Wikipedia works; this is a textbook example of original research with what increasingly appears to be some WP:IDHT thrown in for good measure. Your interpretation of this character's appearance is just that: interpretation. If you continue to dig in your heels on this, prepare for the incoming boomerang. Grandpallama (talk) 00:22, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

By the way, since you are quoting WP:RSPRIMARY, you might want to pay attention to the text immediately below what you quoted (that you seem to have conveniently ignored), which is relevant in this situation: All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. The fact you just tried to edit war this back in while the ANI discussion is ongoing is unacceptable. Grandpallama (talk) 00:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Your accusation that I am edit-warring is utterly inappropriate - Benicio2020 was the one who started repeatedly reverting my edits, plus I was the one who initiated this complaint and I made that edit a little while ago only after going through great lengths to provide greater transparency regarding the sourcing. We're still waiting for an administrator to weigh in on this, aren't we? You also fail to grapple with the actual material and the related sourceing at all.QuakerIlK (talk) 00:55, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

You are wrong on pretty much all counts, and Grandpallama has explained the relevant policies to you correctly. Please just drop it. There is nowhere on Wikipedia where you can argue about the apparent ethnicity of fictional characters. If you want to include this, you have to cite a secondary source; posting your own interpretation of a primary source is against policy. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:02, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Does being "wrong on pretty much all counts" include the fact that not only Benicio2020 (at least 5 times) but now also Grandpallama have made reverts that delete, in addition to the debated material, material for which no rationale for deletion has ever been articulated by either one of them? That is part of my complaint. QuakerIlK (talk) 04:02, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

More supporting material, including 2 new sources, have been added to the article. QuakerIlK (talk) 05:10, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Two editors and an admin have now explained why this attempt to insert original research is inappropriate. Please quit trying to force it in. If you have other edits you want to make, that's fine, but continuing to edit war to include your personal opinions is going to lead to sanctions. Grandpallama (talk) 05:42, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

You completely ignored the fact that I introduced new sources and material and all you did was a simple revert. Your rationale for making the revert you just did is 100% baseless because neither you, nor Benicio2020 nor NinjaRobotPirate has weighed in at all on either the newly-introduced material or the newly-introduced sources in the article section. QuakerIlK (talk) 06:11, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

So, at this point QuakerI1K received a 24 hour block for edit warring. That should be a clear message that yes, you are edit warring QI1K. Once your block lifts, take your comments to the article Talk page, but do not resume attempting to force your edits into the article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:39, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

In addition to here at ANI, this has already been discussed at the article talkpage, at QI1K's talkpage, and at Benicio's talkpage. If we are advising QI1K to return to the article talkpage, they need to understand that it isn't an invitation to continue to push this particular edit; further attempts to argue that their interpretations and unencyclopedic language should be included in the article are just going to result in an escalation of sanctions. Grandpallama (talk) 19:31, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

The Hand That Feeds You, Can either you or NinjaRobotPirate please explain to me why once I added to the article a secondary source (something that both Grandpallama and NinjaRobotPirate said was what I needed to do) supporting the material in question that Grandpallama reverted that edit without either a review of the source or discussion of it on here by any involved party? Can anybody explain to me how I was being charged with edit-warring and was blocked and not Grandpallama? Can anybody explain why the reverts that have been made on the article undid the category additions I made ( Black characters in animation and Category:Black people in comics ), and why those categories remain deleted from that article and why none of the reversions of the articles by any of the other editors, other than myself, involved in this dispute, included rationales for the removal of those categories and why the categories remain removed/deleted without absolutely any rationale whatsoever as to why those removals/deletions persist? QuakerIlK (talk) 07:13, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

This is not the place to resolve content disputes; you need to use dispute resolution for that. You were blocked because people were complaining about your edits here, and I saw you edit warring. Grandpallama hadn't made any additional edits on the article at the time I blocked you. Life is unfair like that. It also doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong when you're edit warring. This is explained in the policy itself. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:56, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

NinjaRobotPirate, can you please explain to me how Grandpallama edit on the Nubia (character) page on 05:38, 28 June 2021‎ is not edit-warring? They claimed in that edit's rationale "Explained by two editors AND an admin that this is inappropriate.", yet this most recent material to which Grandpallama was referring to there that I added at the time which included a new secondary source that supported the material, which is what both you and Grandpallama said was needed, was (and remains) content that went completely undiscussed and untreated at all by any of the involved editors/administrators here in any venue/article that I can see in all of Wikipedia before I was blocked? None of the involved editors here put forth any effort whatsoever in discussing it.

Was I guilty of vandalism in that edit? Was I guilty of inflammatory comments? Where is the disabusal process from you on this series of actions from my edit - "Failure to communicate[6] – this can be either with editors (e.g., lack of suitable warnings or explanations of actions)".

I can admit that throughout this process I have been overly verbose, which is generally advised against in these sorts of processes. (It does mean that I am trying, though.) But as I have continually tried to make improvements on the material in question by further qualifications and articulations with an increasing body of sources that supports the material I add, the language directed against me by both Grandpallama and The Hand That Feeds You, that I "force" edits in, escalates, as does Grandpallama's warning of sanctions against me.

If I continue to make improvements, which I have done consistently, that means that I realized that, to a certain degree, I was wrong in the past, but can you or any other involved party here admit to having made any mistakes throughout this whole process and consider that I might be being punished unfairly or that the article is being prevented from being improved by me? So far, I have seen no indication of that. QuakerIlK (talk) 09:36, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm not going to repeat myself. I think the problem here is that you refuse to hear what people are telling you. If you continue down this path, the end result is an indefinite block. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:12, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Pretty sure NinjaRobotPirate wants to be done with this (so my apologies for pinging him), but a few of these claims merit response, especially since they are directed at me.

• can you please explain to me how Grandpallama edit on the Nubia (character) page on 05:38, 28 June 2021‎ is not edit-warring I reverted you a grand total of three times. The second time I reverted your edit, it was because a discussion was ongoing here (which I very clearly explained/referenced above, in this very thread), per WP:STATUSQUO. The third time I reverted you, it was to again restore a policy-compliant version of the article after you were blocked and the problems with your edits were explained to you. I will not put words in NRP's mouth, but I don't think most admins would see those reversions as disruptive; on the other hand, after you initially inserted your problematic material, you reverted eleven times. Do you really not see the difference?
• I added to the article a secondary source (something that both Grandpallama and NinjaRobotPirate said was what I needed to do) supporting the material in question You absolutely did not. You added a secondary source that supported a claim about the ethnicity of the actor who portrayed the character in live action, which you used to continue the attempt to push your original research into the article. At no point did you provide any sort of sourcing that supported your original research. The fact that you're not getting this is alarming.
• Can anybody explain why the reverts that have been made on the article undid the category additions I made Sure. You made a bold edit of which 80% was highly problematic. It's not the job of other editors to dig through that edit and preserve the "okay" parts; if you don't want them reverted, don't bundle them together with material you have been told is contentious. It is not the job of other editors to clean up after you.
• content that went completely undiscussed and untreated at all by any of the involved editors/administrators here in any venue/article that I can see in all of Wikipedia before I was blocked If you haven't read WP:IDHT, you need to. Your content was discussed on the article talkpage (pretty calmly by Benicio2020, despite your constant needling). The fact that you don't like what other editors said about the content not being compliant with policy and that it needs proper sourcing is right there, on the article talkpage and on your talkpage and now at ANI. Please start listening and stop arguing.

If you had engaged in good faith on the talkpage, you probably would have avoided the first block in your long editing career here. Instead, you chose to bring this to ANI, which resulted in shining a light on your edits. If I were you, I would walk away from this before editors start scrutinizing some of the similar stuff you've added to other pages. Grandpallama (talk) 14:10, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Your last 'point' on here is a clear-cut case of Hounding. QuakerIlK (talk) 12:47, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

No, it's a point that even a casual glance at your editing history shows you have a pattern of adding unsourced material and opinion to articles. If you want to accuse me of harassment, go ahead and file another ANI. Grandpallama (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

The "similar stuff" to which you referred in your 14:10, 30 June 2021 response has now been changed by me. That material is now even better sourced, and even an accusation of weasel words wouldn't stand up now. More responses from me on this overall discussion to come in the next few days. QuakerIlK (talk) 08:18, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Seriously? I looked at your diff and you are going to claim that this is not personal opinion?

It was late in the Bronze Age, however, when what is possibly the single-most-significant change in the iconography of Wonder Woman's costume occurred.

That's a blatant violation of WP:EDITORIAL. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:43, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

You're accusing material as being blatantly in violation of a core Wikipedia policy while completely neglecting to engage with the quoted statements from numerous sources that support said material. You also offer no analysis, whatsoever, to support your very strong claim. QuakerIlK (talk) 21:08, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• Why the fuck are we still covering comic book characters, pro "wrestling, and beauty pageants? It's all so, so childish. EEng 04:57, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

User Noteduck HOUNDING and violating AE civility warning

Noteduck is a relatively new editor who opened their account in Dec 2020. They made a few edits with a prior account Spungo93. In a short period of time it became clear that Noteduck had civility issues related to edit warring and generally confrontational behavior issues. To this end I opened an AE related to Noteduck's behavior which resulted in a logged warning on 25 March (3 months ago)[[4]]. In the 3 months since Noteduck has engaged in a clear pattern of hounding and incivility with respect to my edits and myself.

HOUNDING:hounding on Wikipedia (or "wikihounding") is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance, or distress to the other editor. Hounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia.

Noteduck has made, at the time of this writing, ~185 edits since since receiving a warning on March 25th related to uncivil and problematic AP2 behavior. Of those over 50% have been about me in some capacity.

• Aprox 40 sandbox entries to a grievances list in violation of POLEMIC [[5]]. After a repeated requests they blanked the list with an questionable edit summary [[6]]. Since deletion they have continued to add to the list [[7]].

Edit: this list of grievances was started on 24 Feb. POLEMIC notes grievance lists are only permitted when used for dispute resolution in a timely manner. Springee (talk) 15:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

• Followed me to a 3RRN where they were uninvolved to attack my credibility. [[8]].
• Cold contacting other editors to campaign against me [[9]], [[10]], [[11]], [[12]], [[13]].

• Engaging in topic areas where they weren't previously involved after I was involved and in a way that opposed my edit/arguments:
  • Odal rune RfC [[14]]
  • Candace Ownes, restoring disputed material[[15]] by reverting my edit without participating in the on going talk page discussion [[16]].
  • I edited the Wall Street Journal page 31 March, Noteduck finds the page 1 April [[17]]
  • Tucker Carlson, reverting my removal of disputed content [[18]] despite not being involved in any related talk page discussions

• Article talk page comments/edit summaries that focus on me as an editor rather than on edits
  • Earlier today [[19]], "Frankly, I ask you to familiarize yourself with with Wikipedia:HOUND and WP:FILIBUSTER and ask yourself why you you continue to persist with challenging this exceedingly minor edit.", [[20]] where they accuse me of having a double standard, and [[21]] "respectfully, you've had considerable difficulty understanding WP:DUE and other policies in the past, including on this page,"

• Violated page's 1RR restriction when restoring the disputed edit above. 1st [[22]] 2nd [[23]]

• Personalizing disputes on talk pages - violation of AE warning regarding civility:
  • [[24]], "This is an extremely worrying double standard on Springee's part, given that they insist on the most uncompromisingly high standards on sources they disagree with. If Springee finds it difficult to evaluate sources, it might be best to stand aside and listen more"
  • [[25]], "Springee, you are currently facing a WP:AE hearing on the basis of tendentious editing. If you are having difficulties following editorial policy, it might be best to listen to others more rather than assume you know all the answers "

I've repeatedly warned Noteduck that this is a HOUNDING issue that needs to stop (closing AE admin's page [[26]], Noteduck's page [[27]]) with no success. I was hopeful when they recently focused on editing on topics like architecture it would mean I would be left alone. From my earliest interactions with Noteduck last winter I have tried to make it clear the editorial disagreements aren't personal disagreements. Personalizing disputes was one of the problems discussed at Noteducks AE. Despite trying to keep things civil it is clear they did not understand the prior AE warning. I am requesting either an AP2 topic ban or a 1-way interaction ban (I will voluntarily avoid interacting with them as well). Springee (talk) 13:38, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support Topic ban from American politics, broadly construed. The bloody topic is enough of a permanent battlefield as it is, without the encouragement of new warriors to join the field. ——Serial 13:52, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment If it's a violation of an AE warning, shouldn't this be at AE as well? Black Kite (talk) 13:58, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I've absolutely not only focused on Springee's edits: see my contributions page.[28] My recent new pages include Architecture of Belarus, Land Captain (Russian Empire), Wellerman etc plus extensive work on Texas Revolution, We Will Always Love You and more. Given a shared interest in politics we've indeed both edited Andy Ngo, Douglas Murray, and others. I maintain that Springee is a repeat civil-POV pusher on conservative politics (which almost all their edits relate to) invariably rejecting unflattering material. Springee was before arb com just a month ago for adding material from deprecated Daily Caller to the Andy Ngo page.[29] "Springee" gets 98 hits on the WP:AN archive. Many editors there share my concerns, and Springee's been sanctioned in the area of US politics before.[30] I indeed prepared a WP:AN complaint in sandbox, as Springee did against me[31] in Feb. My "double standard" comment came from Springee's persistence in wanting Fox's Ken LaCorte's "LaCorte News",[32] which dlthewave observed was "obviously terrible", added to Andy Ngo in April[33] {{{1}}} while rejecting material from Rolling Stone and Jacobin this month[34] (plus BuzzFeed News[35] and Bellingcat.[36] Springee is often litigious and made a WP:AN complaint based on an incorrect interpretation of 1RR on the Jared Kushner page in April.[37] I see this as a WP:BOOMERANG. Springee is quite fixated with challenging my edits and has 65 mentions on my talk page. I maintain that Springee's ongoing challenge to my short sentence on Andy Ngo is a WP:FILIBUSTER.[38] The 1RR Springee has raised with dlthewave[39] is trivial, as Dlthewave notes and I've reverted for now anyway.[40] Springee knows I'm sensitive and afflicted by bipolar-2 and prone to being angry and frustrated in manic phases. Full disclosure: yesterday I launched an unrelated WP:AN action after getting highly aggressive and personal insults elsewhere,[41] and can repeat details if necessary. I question Springee's decision to launch this complaint hours later and not wait for the other action to conclude Noteduck (talk) 14:29, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

• Noteduck, please indicate when you change your text. You have made significant changes to your reply above. As I noted below such changes may result in replies to your text that no longer make sense since the original text has been altered with items added/removed. Springee (talk) 23:30, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

It makes me uncomfortable when editors cite mental health conditions to explain their on-wiki behavior. A lot of people suffer from a lot of things; anyone who is not healthy enough to participate here should immediately log off. Levivich 14:57, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Noteduck, the recent AE against me was closed only with a comment to be more careful, not a logged warning.[[42]] Springee (talk) 15:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC) Edit: Noteduck removed the logged warning claim as part of a series of edits to their above statements[[43]]. The newly added claim I added "College Fix"[[44]] is an example of not getting the facts right. It was added by another editor [[45]] just before my edit. Springee (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Noteduck is trying to sidetrack with claims of bias etc but it's clear they personalize disputes (that was found at the AE and recent examples can be seen here. Rather than argue that edits were not supported they accused Conan The Librarian of acting on personal opinion/bias [[46]] and then proceed to put a warning on their user page [[47]]. In the month after the AE closed (24 March to 24 April), Noteduck made 39 edits. All but 5 were related to me. That included reverting my edits at pages they were otherwise uninvolved with, adding to the POLEMIC list, and trying to recruit other editors to join them against me. This fixation has toned down but they still treat all disputes as personal to the point that (see below) they accused me of knowing they are biopolar and trying to use that against them! It's clear that when editors disagree with them Noteduck is taking it personally. This is the core problem and one of the findings of the AE that resulted in a warning. I'm asking for this to stop. Springee (talk) 12:09, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I ended up here because I lurk at HiLo48's talk page which references an ANN which references this one. I've seen Springee at work and they are a careful, polite editor who stays on the high road even when confronted by rough behavior such as that described above. I find the above construction of trying to paint an incorrect picture regarding Springee very opposite to that very telling. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

North8000, what points in particular do you consider incorrect? –dlthewave ☎ 21:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Basically every (mis)characterization and claim about what every diff shows.North8000 (talk) 12:12, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Some of these complaints really don't hold up to scrutiny, and the diffs don't all show what Springee says they do. I would urge folks to take a close look at the diffs in context before forming an opinion. Noteduck does good work in maintaining NPOV in controversial American Politics articles and I would hate to lose a productive editor from that topic. They do raise numerous valid concerns about Springee's editing (although perhaps they could find a better time and place to do so), and this complaint comes across as a fairly sad attempt to gain "first mover advantage" and silence an editor who they disagree with before they have the opportunity to present their evidence.
  • Regarding the sandbox concerns, it appears that Noteduck has been collecting evidence for an Arbcom case or similar, which is explicitly allowed per WP:POLEMIC: The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner. Sure, the definition of "timely manner" is debatable, but the second diff presented by Springee has been up for all of three days which surely is well within bounds. I would also note that Springee maintained a similar collection of diffs in their sandbox for three months during which time they repeatedly asked Noteduck to remove theirs [48][49]. Pot calling the kettle black? I'm also drawing a blank on how this edit summary (material addressing concerns of tendentious editing and civil-POV pushing put in a safe place. This does not mean the concern has gone away, and WP:ANI proceedings may eventually be required.) is in any way "questionable".
  • Tucker Carlson, The Wall Street Journal, Candace Owens and Odal (rune) have been in the news lately and are hot topics for editors involved in American politics; Noteduck and Springee are far from the only editors who showed up to these articles around the same time. I'm sorry but you'd have to be quite the conspiracy theorist or have particularly thin skin to think that someone who responds to the same RfC [50] as you is trying to create "irritation, annoyance or distress".
  • The 1RR concern is a nothingburger. Springee raised the concern on my talk page [51] (I thought they didn't like it when people did that?) and Noteduck promptly and politely self-reverted [52]. –dlthewave ☎ 21:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
    • Dlthewave, several of your points are incorrect or misleading. I did in fact compile a sandbox list before filing an AE in February. I started the list on 29 Jan and filed the AE on 22 Feb, so just 1 month. I will grant that I didn't clean out my sandbox for two months but the AE was open for a month of that. You mention the 1RR violation. It was interesting how you handled what you thought was a 1RR on my part. You went fishing for sanctions.[[53]] Why weren't you as aggressive with Noteduck's clear violation? If Noteduck were editing a wide range of AP2 articles I would find your point about similar article interest to be more convincing. But articles like Odal (rune) are low traffic, Noteduck isn't making it to a lot of AP2 articles where I don't edit (and that's most). This also came at a time before they decided to edit about architecture and the vast majority of their edits were focused on me (at that time near 80% since the AE closure). Springee (talk) 23:10, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh, for fuck's sake, don't pretend that Odal was some backwater article. You know it was well-trafficked and heavily edited after the CPAC incident, and you're having a meltdown because someone responded to the same RFC that you did.

As I mentioned earlier, this is the first 1RR violation that I've seen from Noteduck, and they quickly apologized and self-reverted when it was pointed out. On the other hand you and I have had several disagreements over what constitutes a revert, so I asked an admin for advice and it seemed to me like the three of us had a nice productive discussion about it. Do you see it differently? –dlthewave ☎ 01:24, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Please keep it civil. During the first month after the AE closed (24 Mar-24 Apr) Noteduck edited 7 article/talk pages that could be seen as AP related (Dennis Prager, WSJ, CPAC, Odal rune, Candace Owens, Douglas Murray, Andy Ngo, Tucker Carlson, 2020 US presidential election, A People's History of the US). Of those I have no involvement with the last 2. Noteduck had no involvement with WSJ, CPAC, Odal, Owens and Carlson but was either opposing my RfC comments or reverting my edits. They did have prior involvement with Ngo, Prager and Murray. If their comments and edits weren't related to mine it would be easier to see this as just hitting the same topics.

Was it Noteduck's first brush with edit warring? Edit warring was one of the AE concerns. You also haven't made it clear why you were quick to warn me when you felt I crossed the line but you didn't even provide a curtesy notice to Noteduck that they had crossed the line. When you asked an admin it was clear that you were fishing for sanctions and made accusations of 1RR violations on my part which you have yet to support. Springee (talk) 02:09, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Back to the sandbox thing: If we give you the benefit of the doubt, you had a list of grievances up for a month and you're claiming that keeping a similar list for three days violates POLEMIC. This is one of those things that really feels like a double standard: It's hounding and uncivil when Noteduck does it, but we're expected to give quite a bit of leeway for your similar actions. If you're so concerned about it, I would hope you would remember to keep your own sandbox clean. –dlthewave ☎ 12:07, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

The grievance list was started by Noteduck 10 Feb. It's almost July and and still being added to. Do you consider 5 months timely? Blanking means little if they note that they can bring the blanked content back (the "blanked" content was added below) and if they keep adding new entries. You claim what I did was similar so lets compare. A specific list in less than a month, used at AE, never used again until blanked when the sandbox was cleaned a month after the AE closed. VS a continuous 5 month list, including many obvious errors, a portion was blanked but in a way that was easy to restore after multiple complaints that the list violated POLEMIC. The accumulation has continued even after several POLEMIC warnings. It's clear Noteduck has decided I've wronged them. To that end they are making a list, following me to continue their grievances at other articles, trying to drum up other editors for support (yourself included) and not trying to claim "but civil POV pusher" rather than reflect on their own actions. If they agree to stop personalizing disputes, MfD the list, and leave me alone all would be fine and we could close this right away. Springee (talk) 12:31, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

on the point about leeway: Springee has been editing for more than a decade and has far, far, far more editorial experience than I do. I've only been regularly editing since December 2020 (I have a handful of edits under an old account earlier in 2020). "Springee" gets 98 hits in the WP:AN archive; "Noteduck" gets 5. Springee should know the rules very well by now - and in fact, Springee does appear to know them when it suits their perspective. There's no reason for Springee to claim ignorance of editorial policy or expect preferential treatment Noteduck (talk) 12:42, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Springee, I can wipe my sandbox of references to you and any perceived breaches of policy now if you request. I can store it elsewhere if need be. However, you seem to be demanding that I never use my sandbox to build up any sort of allegation involving you again, which I think is pretty unreasonable (and indeed, a total WP:POTKETTLE situation). On the repeated HOUNDing allegations, please refer more to the specific parts of the policy you feel I am violating, and remember your many posts and 65 hits for "Springee" on my talk page[54] don't suggest you are exactly non-adversarial. Per WP:HOUND: Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. In fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol and WikiProject Spam. I believe that this is what I've been doing. You've recently pinged me and reverted my edits on the Andy Ngo page,[55] dragging me away from other Wikipedia projects I enjoy much more: see Architecture of Belarus and Texas Revolution Noteduck (talk) 12:54, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

And again an inaccurate telling. I was consolidating citations per a talk page discussion [[56]]. As part of that I noted questionable claims that included OR [[57]][[58]]. Despite your last involvement with the article being in May, you quickly reverted my removal of the OR [[59]][[60]] just 1 hour later. I pinged you because I went to the talk page to discuss this [[61]]. I will note that you edit warred not with me but with Volteer1 who reverted your restorations. You claim I was targeting your edits, I agree you originally added the OR but that was on 22 Feb. I wasn't aware you were the original editor at the time I removed it. Mischaracterizing and personalizing these disputes is a big issue here. Springee (talk) 13:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Just re the ping: sorry, I'm incredibly busy right now. I know I'm related to this stuff, and your retelling looks accurate at a glance, but I'll chime in properly a bit later when I have time. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 14:43, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• An earlier encounter between User:Noteduck and User:Springee was a lengthy mediation about five months ago at DRN, Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_201#PragerU. My observations were that these two editors disagreed on content, and that Noteduck was verbose (which is common and unhelpful at DRN). It was a difficult content dispute that ended up as a lengthy RFC that was really six RFCs rolled into one. All of the parties in the dispute were civil, which, like accuracy, is a duty rather than a virtue. It was preceded by Noteduck filing a Request for Arbitration that the arbitrators and I agreed should go to DRN. I haven't been involved with subsequent interaction between Noteduck and Springee. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:54, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Regarding the sandbox, from the content blanked in Special:Diff/1029281530, pasted below. The user accumulated a large number of grievances, mostly against Springee (talk · contribs). I note that some of the sources mentioned, such as CNN, are generally considered to be reliable, so they do have legitimate concerns about Springee. Their current revision says that they think it is Springee, not themselves, who should be AP2 topic-banned (esp. in relation to Andy Ngo). But, I think this warrants an interaction ban between the users as well. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:31, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• The problem with long lists of diffs is the reason things were reverted is often lost. Noteduck's records aren't very accurate either. Consider above where they accuse me of adding "Collegefix" as a source even though that was added by a different editor. Sometimes the removal of a reliable source from an article is not related to it being a RS but DUE, WP:V, specific phrasing etc. Recently it was suggested that I removed Rolling Stones from the Andy Ngo article. It wasn't true. I removed a specific claim that failed Wp:V and the redundant citation associated with it. The fact that Noteduck has been creating such a long list over so many months supports my POLEMIC concern. The long list says I violated my self imposed 1RR rule twice yet fails to note once was to revert an IP editor, the other was 7 March, where I reverted myself because I didn't include an edit summary [62][63]. Springee (talk) 02:19, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• dc̄ I absolutely contend that there is enough evidence of such a long and egregious history of civil-POV pushing to launch a WP:ANI action against Springee, with the main difficulty being the staggering number of potentially relevant diffs. dlthewave I share your frustration that Springee's characterisation of the Odal rune page as "low-traffic" is typical of Springee's selective recall and application of policy. Similarly, my recent uptick in engagement on the Andy Ngo page was in response to Springee on 18 June making an unjustified wholesale revert (although I've repeatedly reminded them about WP:ROWN) of material I had added sometime earlier.[64] I don't find Ngo particularly edifying and recently have spent the vast majority of my time working on more interesting things like the Texas Revolution and a bunch of Russia-related topics in my sandbox.[65] As dlthewave notes I believe Springee's clear motive here is seeking "first mover advantage" they can leverage as a WP:BOOMERANG that distracts from their own actions. As course, as per WP:BOOMERANG: There is sometimes a belief that, if someone's perceived misbehavior is reported at a noticeboard, the discussion can only focus on the original complaint, and turning the discussion around to discuss the misbehavior of the original reporter is "changing the subject" and therefore not allowed. However, that just isn't the case. Anyone who participated in the dispute or discussions might find their actions under scrutiny. Noteduck (talk) 01:43, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

whoops, on the extremely trivial point about who added the "College Fix", it wasn't Springee. I still think it's inexplicable that you added a point about Andy Ngo being purportedly threatened by left-wing protestors on the basis of the sources "Katu" and "College Fix"[66] without questioning their reliability, while RS's more critical of Ngo have been repeatedly challenged and reverted. Yes, you did remove material from Rolling Stone from Ngo's page, just this month.[67] Noteduck (talk) 02:44, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

And this is why we have to look at the details because you are still getting things wrong left and right. First, these edits were done after starting a talk page discussion [[68]]. Second, I didn't add any of the sources. The edit you link to is one where I changed the language to match that from the parent article. Nothing more. If you want to complain about those sources why don't you talk to the editor who added them? As for Rolling Stone, you are conflating two arguments. I was talking about being accused of removing a source (in the past, not this instance) when I only removed a redundant example of the source. A diff that only looks at the one edit might miss that the removed source was redundant. As for the Rolling Stones material you reference, the issue was it didn't pass Wp:V. The source is still in the article but the specific claim was OR. Springee (talk) 02:58, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

About 20 KB, by Noteduck (talk · contribs)

In May 2021 Springee expressly named a belief that the Cato Institute was an RS, but the SPLC was not, again expressing their selective assessment of sources based on their ideological position. Partisan reverts: some of the sources Springee has removed from pages related to conservative politics because they are "biased", "subjective" or some other feeble reason: the Southern Poverty Law Center,[69][70][71][72][73][74] The New York Times and CNN,[75][76] National Review(!),[77] The Washington Post,[78] Newsweek,[79], The Washington Post and NBC,[80] The Washington Post and Bellingcat[81], Vox and The Daily Beast[82], the Los Angeles Times,[83] The Intercept,[84] the [[BBC],[85] Rolling Stone, Jacobin and Columbia Journalism Review[86], BuzzFeed News,[87] The Guardian(including restoring grammatical errors!)[88], Salon (website),[89] Forbes,[90] the Seattle Times,[91] Reports sans Frontieres,[92] New Republic and NBC News,[93] the Chicago Sun-Times[94] Politico and four other sources,[95] The Independent,[96] Daily Dot,[97][98][99] Reuters and Fox News(!)[100] Middle East Eye,[101] The Huffington Post,[102] Mother Jones,[103] and smaller-scale newspapers like the 8-time Pulitzer Prize winner Kansas City Star,[104][105]Des Moines Register[106] and The Arizona Republic(known for its conservatism!)[107][108] and academic articles[109]. These are almost all going back to November 2020 alone! There are simply too many of them to list, as Springee's pattern of deleting material unflattering to conservatives has become increasingly brazen. Springee also fought a protracted rearguard action to keep a Harvard University study about promotion of climate change denial out of the ExxonMobil page in favor of an article from a fossil fuel lobby group,[110] as well as contesting at length the inclusion of an article from the New York Times on the same article.[111] Concerningly, Springee seems to have a record of whitewashing the pager of powerful climate-change denying groups[112][113][114][115][116] - Wall Street Journal here[117][118] Springee is currently engaged in a rearguard action to minimise the use of material related to climate change denial on the PragerU page.[119] The consistent feature of absolutely every one of Springee's reversions is not evidentiary weight but ideological bent - the material challenged is always something reliably sourced, but arguably unflattering, to a conservative subject. I've provided around 50 diffs as evidence. Here are some accusations of "whitewashing" by other editors levelled towards Springee.[120][121][122][123][124][125] Springee will throw the book at the offending editor in terms of spurious complaints about Wiki policies, frequently launch RfCs in order to contest sources and drag out the process as long as possible. Look back through Springee's edits on Andy Ngo, Douglas Murray (author), and PragerU and you'll see this pattern play out time and time again. The results are horribly whitewashed pages representing powerful, moneyed conservative interests - consider that on the current PragerU page, a flattering paragraph given over to the company's unsuccessful lawsuit against Google has 3 paragraphs and 310 words, while just a single sentence is dedicated to PragerU's well-documented[126][127][128][129][130][131] record of misinformation on climate change. On 15 September 2020, Springee said that they would voluntarily follow a 1RR rule limit.[132] Nonetheless. They repeatedly violated this request - on 28 January 2021,[133][134], 7 March 2021,[135][136] For other contentions of Springee's partisan bias, see[137][138][139] for behavorial problems on pages related to conservative politics[140][141][142][143][144][145][146][147][148][149], including a formal sanction in the area of American politics[150] unwarranted deletion of material[151][152][153] especially misbehavior related to guns[154][155][156][157][158][159][160][161][162][163][164][165][166][167][168][169][170][171][172][173][174][175]. Multiple overt claims of firearms advocacy[176][177][178][179] and whitewashing pages of firearms[180][181] are particularly concerning. If you go through these diffs, you'll see that unexplained block reverts and stonewalling are particular problems for Springee. It's worth noting that Springee has been accused of abusing the noticeboards and being overly litigious towards other editors before.[182] Note that these diffs are (a) not exhaustive in terms of Springee's record of misconduct and (b) fragmentary, so may not individually be absolutely damning. While my focus here is Springee, it's worth noting that they often operate as a kind of tag-team with others, invariably backing each other up on topics related to conservative politics.[183][184], [185][186], [187],[188],[189] Needless to say, dealing with multiple editors making the same partisan arguments is frustrating. You have made made several comments about purported left-wing bias on Wikipedia.[190] Some of Shinealittlelight's claims about obviously reliable sources are frankly quite bizarre - see this extended (and baffling) complaint about a widely-cited report written by a University of North Carolina professor that was critical of PragerU[191] and this attempt to ensure that the term "white nationalist" would not be used in relation to the Kenosha unrest shooting suspect.[192] PragerU has met the criteria for a "repeat offender" of spreading misinformation on Facebook[193][194] and yet "misinformation" barely appears on the PragerU Wiki page. Remarkably, these editors have alleged poor sourcing on a proposed addition to the header that would mention misinformation that contains more than two dozen sources.[195] Absolutely every addition that it critical of Prager gets ruthlessly purged. UPDATE4: I've perused through the WP:AN noticeboard and Springee appears on a jaw dropping 97(!) different archive pages, usually many times over. Cedar777 and Shadydabs have summed up what the problem is with Springee's editing, over and over: Springee reverts whole blocks of new material on a page related to conservative politics (despite their long history on Wiki, WP:ROWN appears to be unfamiliar to Springee), claims the source is not DUE, claims the source is not an RS, misrepresents the source's contents, and if this all fails Springee then claims there's no consensus, essentially demanding a personal veto S, that's a mischaracterization - I did not "accuse" editors of anything. I reminded editors of policy, namely WP:ROWN - here is the source[196] Noteduck (talk) 15:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC) Record of Springee's spurious edits and reversions: 2021 [197][198] July 2020: reverts of good sources added to the Andy Ngo page.[199] Reverts of good sources on Tucker Carlson.[200][201][202][203][204][205][206][207][208][209][210][211] June-July 2020: reverts of good sources added to the page of conservative historian Victor Davis Hansen.[212][213] June 2020: Andy Ngo [214][215][216], Tucker Carlson[217], Burt Rutan[218]

Proposal 1: Two-Way Interaction Ban

This is another case of two editors who do not like each other. I propose a two-way interaction ban between User:Noteduck and User:Springee with only the usual exceptions. Since they both edit in the area of American politics, this will inconvenience both of them. Antagonism between editors should be inconvenient to both editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:36, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:36, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I have nothing personally against Noteduck. I do not seek to interact with them. If they agree to AGF I'm happy to do the same. I do not feel my ability to edit articles where I have long been involved should be restricted due to Notrduck's logged uncivil behavior. As North8000 said, I understand AP2 can be confrontational so I take the high road. Springee (talk) 15:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose as not the solution to this problem. This isn't about two editors not liking each other. Or rather, it's about more than that. I mean every ANI report involves two or more editors not liking each other. If we handed out IBANs for that, we'd all be IBANed. The problem here is disruption, and disruptive editors should just be removed from the project altogether. Or at least the topic area. We've had enough noticeboard drama about this (by my count: an arbcom request, a DRN, at least one AN, at least one ANI, and that's probably not everything). Either there is a real problem here or someone is really crying wolf. Either way, an IBAN is not the solution. (Also, no one is going to use DRN if the neutral later proposes sanctions against the participants.) For my part, I don't see a case being made yet by anyone for sanctions against anyone else, mostly because there are so many false positive diffs being presented. So if anyone reading this thinks this thread should end with action, I'd suggest posting your best diffs and quotes, and really making a clear and brief argument about what is needed and why. Levivich 16:10, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - the problem is not Springee or two-way interaction, it is WP:HOUNDING by Noteduck which is a policy vio and it needs immediate attention by an admin. This is unacceptable behavior. Hounding violates the UCoC, Section 3.1 Harassment - it is a very serious behavioral issue, and no editor deserves to be hounded, on or off WP. Atsme 💬 📧 17:30, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose This mis-characterizes the situation. Springee has consistently taken the careful, polite high road. And they came here for relief from hounding. Maybe just a warning to Noteduck regarding the topic at hand would be sufficient to resolve this. North8000 (talk) 18:32, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I appreciate Robert McClenon's work on resolving this. However I think the problem is asymmetric here, despite this litigious WP:BOOMERANG by Springee. Again, if allegations of WP:HOUND are being made, specific references to the text of the policy should be made, rather than broad-brush claims. I recommend looking through both mine[219] and Springee's[220] contribution pages and see the contrast between an editor who has added constructively to a broad range of topics, and one with a dogged focus on contesting material on pages related to right-wing politics Noteduck (talk) 23:20, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Withdraw - I am willing to withdraw this proposal. Will someone else propose something else? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:44, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Re-open and support - Robert McClenon has withdrawn this proposal, but I'd like to repropose it. There is a problem that has to be solved here, and I think this proposal solves it better than any other, and specifically better than any one-sided sanction against Noteduck. Loki (talk) 06:18, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support The sandbox demonstrates tendentious behavior by Noteduck toward Springee, and an overview of User talk:Noteduck and its edit history shows Springee repeatedly complaining about Noteduck's edits and fighting between the users. Out of 145 edits to this user talk, Noteduck themselves made 46 and Springee made 44, or about 1/3 each of the entire edit history. A third opinion will be needed to determine if either user's edits about Andy Ngo are problematic, which would warrant a topic ban from this BLP or post-1992 American politics more broadly. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:37, 7 July 2021 (UTC) 18:44, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

LaundryPizza03 I'd be happy for an uninvolved party to look at Springee's edits on Andy Ngo, though it needs to be said that these are just part of a much larger pattern of blocking unflattering material on pages related to right-wing politics, particularly through the relentless and protracted contestation of material on talk pages. Note that Springee has made 521 edits on Talk:Andy Ngo (16.64% of ALL edits made to the page)[221] Noteduck (talk) 01:21, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - the two don't want it, the proposer withdrew it, and the problem is Noteduck, not Springee - there should be no false equivalence here. I say more below. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:32, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposal #2

Enough has been seen and reviewed to at least raise concern about WP:hounding, WP:Battleground and against-WP:civility behavior by Noteduck particularly with respect to Springee. Noteduck is warned to avoid those types of behaviors. North8000 (talk) 14:25, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I would support this or as an alternative I would accept a MfD Noteduck's sandbox with an understanding they may keep the content not related to me. This is a grievance list and a clear violation of POLEMIC. This is especially true since many of the claims are false if anyone actually looks at the diffs in question. Springee (talk) 01:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

If you'd like to see it deleted, why don't you nominate it for MfD yourself? –dlthewave ☎ 12:21, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I considered that but if we decide to MfD here it will be easier to ensure it is completed. Springee (talk) 10:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - Looking at the discussion above, I'm not sure there's agreement that Noteduck's actions merit a warning or even meet the criteria for those issues. It may be wise to wait for more input from uninvolved editors, preferably admins, before making further proposals to close. –dlthewave ☎ 12:16, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support as proposer As the mildest remedy that has a reasonably good chance at resolving the situation. I didn't fully understand Springee's response/post. But they are referring to work there by Noteduck that appears to be aimed at using the system to "get" someone vs. just to solve an issue, would agree that that should be deleted. North8000 (talk) 13:05, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support I've had limited access recently and will for a while longer. I think it's clear that Noteduck has been campaigning against me (see the diffs showing them contacting other editors out of the blue and in cases which they weren't previously involved). The POLEMIC list started in Feb is also a problem. Yes, they blanked it but then started it right back up so it never went away and as the collapsed section below shows, it's still very accessible. This list is a serious problem when editors presume it was in any way shape or form reliably collected. In addition to the fact that most examples don't contain context, they also have a lot of just plain wrong claims (saying sources were removed in cases where I was moving blocks of text, saying I violated 1RR when I self reverted then restored to correct my edit note etc). Finally, trying to bring being bipolar into this! Levivich is right, if a this is a problem that results in confrontational behavior then the editor should stay out of confrontational areas. Springee (talk) 10:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment not particularly sensitive Springee. At any rate, Springee seems to want an asymmetric rule that I can't collect material in my sandbox for use in WP:AN complaints. As we've already observed, this is a total double standard. I'll certainly be more mindful about the "timely" requirement of the policy but surely this is an important part of the sandbox function, especially for the sake of transparency about upcoming complaints. One glance at my sandbox reveals that the large majority does not focus on Springee but on my various pet projects to improve Wiki. I just made Farmers or Hunter-Gatherers? The Dark Emu Debate btw and I'm quite happy with it Noteduck (talk) 07:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

There is no double standard. You have maintained a grievance list since February. That is only allowed if the contents are to be used in a timely fashion which you have not done. It doesn't matter if only 1% of the list is a POLEMIC, 0% is the upper limit. The fact that you deleted the list on June 19 means nothing if you show that you have learned nothing and started a new one. Springee (talk) 09:28, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I guess I'm a bit confused here, was Noteduck not supposed to start a new list (as new issues emerged) after deleting the previous one? –dlthewave ☎ 13:28, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is helpful, but I think that the "timely" part serves to make a distinction between complaints to try to resolve a current problem vs longer term constructions to try to "get" (deprecate or remove) an editor or just do battle with an editor. And the latter is presumably a reason for the polemic rule, particularly against another editor. Perhaps, in addition to the proposed gentle warning, if Noteduck could (you) agree to be extra careful and mindful of these objectives? North8000 (talk) 12:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I think that is a good distinction. A month is reasonable period of time to collect diffs but if this list is still here mid July it will be a clear POLEMIC and now Noteduck would be clearly warned about the policy. Springee (talk) 18:10, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

well yes, I can certainly aim to keep material in my sandbox for no more than a month in line with the "timely" language of the policy. The material I gathered was not intended to be part of some aimless, vague polemic but rather the concrete basis for a WP:AN complaint. The sandbox is a convenient place to gather such evidence, which I'm sure is why you've used it for the same reason Springee Noteduck (talk) 01:50, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Springee, just observing an example from the last couple of days - I'd work on this pattern of wholesale reverts,[222] especially since other editors have raised concerns about your editing related to right-wing politics. I've reminded you of WP:ROWN multiple times, and with more than a decade of experience I'm sure you know it well too. You correctly note that this material was about Kirk, not TPUSA, so doesn't belong on the latter's page. Why not move this material to the Charlie Kirk (activist) page, or if you think the material does not belong on Kirk's page either, take it the Kirk talk page or the editor in question's talk page? Noteduck (talk) 04:24, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

If timely is your intent why gave you been collecting grievances for 5 months with no action? I'm glad you are able to recognize that the content I removed from TPUSA does not belong on the page. I'm certainly not obligated to try to make a case for the content to be DUE on another page which is what you are asking me to do. Springee (talk) 05:17, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Springee I'm merely recommending that given your experience and your focus on pages related to TPUSA and proximate topics, you could assist less experienced editors. I see you have again reverted the eight word sentence I added to Andy Ngo,[223] though your rebuttals haven't been substantive. You initially referred to WP:OR, and now WP:V, without specifying what part of either policy you are grounding your argument in. I recommend basing any objections to new edits in the specific language of editorial policy rather than a broad-brush rejection Noteduck (talk) 05:55, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I and several other experienced editors did try to help you early on. Our efforts were met with hostility to the point that an AE was filled against you and you were formally warned. The Ngo material has been reverted by two editors and fails WP:V. The ONUS is on you to correct the problem. That you restored the same content you violated 1RR to add further shows that you didn't take your logged warning to heart. Springee (talk)`

Springee recently launched an action in Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard[224] in relation to my aforementioned short 14-word sentence.[225] They also are waging an ongoing fight on Talk:Andy Ngo to contest this same material.[226] Noteduck.

Mis-characterizations aside, those are good examples of the Wikipedian, polite, and content-focused way to deal with content questions/disputes. North8000 (talk) 11:36, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

A gentle piece of advice to Springee btw: I recommend aiming to diversify your interest base beyond right-wing political pages like Andy Ngo ("Springee" gets 600+ hits in the page archives), whoops strike through Charlie Kirk etc. I had it on the brain because of the point about TPUSA above - please don't cherry-pick. As I noted in the earlier dispute in April, based on samples of around ~1000 of your recent edits, at times 95%+ have related to conservative politics-related pages. I've pivoted away and have found creating diverse and original content elsewhere much more satisfying (talk) Noteduck (talk) 03:54, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Interesting... let's see, how many edits do I have to the Charlie Kirk page... [[227]]. It looks like zero. I'm glad to see you have found other areas to focus on. Hopefully that will mean you no longer need your POLEMIC violating list nor will need to hound me or attack me. That would be great. Springee (talk) 04:04, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

In response to your edit above[[228]], it is always a good idea to have your facts correct before lobbing criticisms. That is one of the issues with your POLEMIC grievance list. The fact that it violates POLEMIC is another. Springee (talk) 04:19, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

• Conditional support - a first time warning is customary for new editors, but in this case, it is overly gracious, especially considering Noteduck's comment just above Springee's which begins with "A gentle piece of advice to Springee", and their noting that 95% of Springee's edits are to conservative politics. Wow - that statement provides some pretty big evidence of HOUNDING. Why should any editor care, other than a POV pusher, if 100% of Springee's edits are to conservative politics? Those are the articles that need attention because of strong POV pushing, and left-leaning news media that dominates the echo chamber, not to mention an issue of noncompliance with RECENTISM and NOTNEWS; all of which means there is typically more work to do on those articles. We leave our biases at login. WP is a collaborative project - we don't "advise" other editors whose views oppose our own, especially veteran editors, where they should or shouldn't edit. Admins are the ones who make that decision when there's proven disruption, and right now the only disruption I'm seeing is coming from Noteduck. I commend Springee for exercising such patience. Atsme 💬 📧 10:45, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Atsme, how do you feel about Springee's similar assessment: Noteduck has made, at the time of this writing, ~185 edits since since receiving a warning on March 25th related to uncivil and problematic AP2 behavior. Of those over 50% have been about me in some capacity, followed by a detailed analysis of Noteduck's edits? Why is it OK for Springee to calculate percentages of where Noteduck has been editing, but when Noteduck does the same thing it's considered hounding? –dlthewave ☎ 05:16, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Dlthewave - for the sake of brevity, Noteduck's comments are political in nature, whereas Springee is being hounded and is expected to provide evidence of same. Atsme 💬 📧 11:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

As you note I think that a close review of this ANI thread itself says a lot about the situation. I'm not sure if you meant that my proposal #2 was too mild but for better or worse that's sort of how I roll. Perhaps a one way interaction ban would have been a better proposal to give decisive relief to Springee and be a stronger "we really mean it" regarding battleground mentality towards another editor. But the warning remains as the alternative that I support. And Springee themself supported it and so they likely feel that it is sufficient, at least at this "give it a try" stage. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:51, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure what part of WP:HOUND would proscribe "a gentle piece of advice" or how it displays a battleground mentality. I offered what I see as sound advice based on my experience that it's much more fulfilling to create pages and make extensive original contributions to Wiki rather than have to spend lengthy amounts of time on talk pages, which is where contentious political articles often end up. Springee has certainly aimed to correct perceived errors and issues reminders of policy when they've seen fit, sometimes in quite strident terms, on my talk page (see User talk:Noteduck). I've been distracted and busy working on unrelated projects, but I've wiped the perceived breaches I noted, which made up a small portion of my sandbox, in a good-faith compliance with Springee's request.[229] I hadn't been alerted to the “timely manner” requirement prior to this ANI notice but I'm fine with interpreting it as one month and not leave material for policy complaints in my sandbox for longer than this. This is by no means a repudiation of any of these points. I think that while I don't agree at all with the basis of this WP:ANI notice I've engaged in a constructive and good-faith manner Noteduck (talk) 05:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The first you heard about it? Why didn't you understand the problem when I warned you about POLEMIC on 10 April [[230]] and then again on 25 May [[231]]. It was only on 19 June that a 3rd warning finally resulted in you removing the content. Why did it take two months? Certainly you should have been aware of the timeliness requirement the first time I provided a POLEMIC link in the warning. Springee (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Springee none of your posts on my page referred to the timely manner requirement. Noteduck (talk) 12:44, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

That makes your failure to remove even worse. The first time I just said it violated POLEMIC. You didn't bother to follow up and check so that's on you. Either way, you were informed. The second time I included this part, "Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws.". So you just decided to ignore the whole thing since the only reason to keep such a list would have to fall under the timely exception. If you weren't aware of it, after being told where to look, what more do you want. It's clear you were keeping the list despite knowing it was against user talk page guidelines. Springee (talk) 14:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

That's not the best representation of the facts. Having started to regularly edit Wiki in December 2020, I had of course seen other editors use their sandboxes to assemble ANI complaints and discuss the use of sandboxes for this purpose, and in fact on 10 February I made an enquiry on your talk page about material you were preparing in sandbox for a complaint against me (though it was quickly blanked).[232] You did indeed quote WP:POLEMIC in a post on my talk page on 25 May, specifically the passage warning against Example text For context, the very next sentence of WP:POLEMIC, in the same dot point, reads: "The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner." Why omit this, especially given that your main objection here appears to be related to the timely manner requirement? On 25 June you referred to the specific phrase timely manner in this complaint.[233] It seems unduly to think I deserve sanctions based on not heeding specific points of editorial policy Noteduck (talk) 07:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose As someone who's often edited on American political topics where both Springee and Noteduck were participating I have never seen a dispute between them that I honestly felt was Noteduck's fault to begin with. This is not to say that Noteduck has been a perfect editor, but that I strongly oppose any one-sided sanction against Noteduck. For what it's worth, I would support the interaction ban above or even a one-way interaction ban against Springee: I think that there's a far better case to be made for Springee hounding Noteduck than vice-versa. Loki (talk) 06:34, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Are you saying this because you can think of any actual examples or just because you see this as a tactical move? Noteduck was warned about civility and edit warring at AE. Did other editors (myself included) start those problems? Springee (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Nothing says "battleground mentality" like speculating about "tactical moves". Please, try to assume good faith. –dlthewave ☎ 11:54, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

struck Springee (talk) 14:33, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Loki, Springee has given pretty substantial examples of hounding. Perhaps you could give some to support your assertion of hounding by Springee?North8000 (talk) 13:26, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh certainly. Of the 37 sections on Noteduck's talk page, 11, or roughly a third, are sections started by Springee accusing Noteduck of bad behavior: [234], [235], [236], [237], [238], [239], [240], [241], [242], [243], [244]. When these accusations have been actually reported to admins, none of them so far have resulted in sanctions for Noteduck more serious than one unenthusiastic warning once. Loki (talk) 03:21, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

There have only been two trips to the notice board, the AE that resulted in a warning and this one. If you look, many are good faith efforts to help a new editor learn the ropes. Others are for the exact behaviors that resulted in a logged warning. It's unfortunate that you and Dlthewave are condoning vs discouraging such behaviors. Even if you think Noteduck hasn't crossed a sanctionable line why encourage it? Springee (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

LokiTheLiar, that's not hounding. North8000 (talk) 14:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Loki and dlthewave for helping to set the record straight here. A search for edits made by Springee in my talk page history reveals 44 edits by Springee, or more than 30% of all edits in the page's history.[245] A search of Springee's talk page history shows 13 edits by Noteduck (though all have since been wiped).[246] This is hardly commensurate with the accusation of one-way, targeted WP:HOUNDING. Springee hasn't explained how they arrived at the point that "over 50% of Noteduck's edits since 25 March have been about me 'in some capacity'" [inverted commas mine], which they will need to clarify, and again I invite editors to look at the diversity of the contributions in my edit history[247] and sandbox.[248] Springee's stated desire to avoid interacting with me is hardly commensurate with their recent actions on the Andy Ngo talk page, where they:

• on 18 June Springee pinged me in a subheading I had no prior involvement in,[249] having reverted a not prominent, 14-word short sentence I had added to a body paragraph on Ngo's page[250]
• continued to contest this short sentence at length on Ngo's talk page for close to another two weeks, including repeatedly interacting with me without apparent distress[251]
• on 25 June took this same short sentence to the no original research noticeboard,[252] on the basis that it purportedly failed WP:V requirements, only for other uninvolved editors to quickly affirm my longstanding interpretation of the contested sentence.[253][254].

Given the outcome of the WP:NORN discussion they launched, I hope Springee will be restoring the material. As I've noted above,[255] I did not receive a specific reference to the point about assembling complaints in the sandbox being done in a timely manner from Springee, and would have applied the policy (though its wording doesn't lay out precise instructions for how to adhere to it) as best I could had I known. I'm happy to field any further questions Noteduck (talk) 07:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Why? There is not a consensus of support and there are concerns about weight for such a claim. Springee (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

do you not agree that the counter-arguments have been quite comprehensively refuted? Noteduck (talk) 23:09, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

A review of this ANI thread alone says much about the situation. Seeking to resolve a situation vs. seeking to deprecate an editor. North8000 (talk) 13:42, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support per arguments of above support !votes, and how is this still open and unresolved? Closing with a warning and move on sounds reasonable. I also agree that the "evidence of hounding by Springee" above is not evidence of hounding. Levivich 18:43, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• Prefer topic ban for Noteduck, support warning if not. Their logged warning from March says they need to abide to policies while editing in the topic area of American politics, and they have not been doing so regarding WP:HOUND and WP:DISRUPTIVE. The time for warnings is past; it is time for more than a slap on the wrist. (Closer: Note that Serial supported a topic ban also right after Springee's opening.) It's not like bans can't be appealed in the future anyway. It is clear from the above, both the evidence and from their own words, that they persistently hound Springee and are WP:NOTHERE to encyclopedically and neutrally portray American politics, but rather, to right great wrongs and portray conservatives as negatively as possible. That is exemplified by their own statement above: A gentle piece of advice to Springee btw: I recommend aiming to diversify your interest base beyond right-wing political pages... Only a POV pusher and hounder would say that. If this is what they say openly at ANI, I can only imagine what these article talk pages (many of them being BLPs!) are like. This crusade is WP:NOT what Wikipedia is for; it is the epitome of tendentious editing. A Wikipedia that is nothing but hit pieces on the right will do nothing but preach to the choir on the left, anyway. The topic area in no way benefits from these POV pushers that work their way in occasionally. Whether many editors agree with the POV being pushed is no grounds for leniency. Noteduck themselves states above, I've pivoted away and have found creating diverse and original content elsewhere much more satisfying, so let's help them stay away from this topic area. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:21, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose in part due to the vagueness of the proposal; what exactly does a warning to avoid behaviors described by essays we've all seen actually amount to, particularly when the dispute is over who is hounding whom? In my general experience, a significant fraction of what gets described as "hounding" ends up being clashing opinions on areas of shared interest, exacerbated by a kind of passive aggression for which Wikipedia is unluckily fertile ground. I'm not sure that isn't the case here. (For example, on the face of it, "try working in a different topic area for a little while" can actually be darn good advice. I've given it to myself plenty of times. What matters is the tone in which it is said, as it were.) XOR'easter (talk) 16:37, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

For better or worse, it was deliberately a soft proposal, including avoiding an explicit finding of hounding behavior while having a good chance of providing the relief that is owed to Springee. Ifr that doesn't work, more concrete explicit findings and direction could be provided at that point.North8000 (talk) 19:57, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Suppose an ANI report had been opened on an editor who was adding labels to pages on figures like, say, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez based on right-wing opinion outlets, telling their opponent to edit pages other than "left-wing" pages and following that editor around, talking about them all the time, and keeping a polemic about them. Would we be seeing the same sort of replies here? I suspect not. They'd probably be indeffed. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:57, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

There have been posts entered by 69.156.107.94 which have been removed per evade/ sock of blocked. The is IP has a history less than1 1/2 weeks old and ~90% those posts have been on this thread attempting to deprecate Springee. Springee is a polite, policy-conscious editor who has been subjected to far too much of this stuff from a few individuals. This type of abuse of editors must be stopped! The have asked for relief from the most egregious portion of that. I proposed an action which is probably too mild but something must be done! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:04, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Overview of recent discussions at Talk:Andy Ngo

@Noteduck: Very well then. Looking at the most recent edits on Talk:Andy Ngo, I see that Springee keeps getting into content disputes.

• On 17 May, they disputed whether content added by Cedar777 (talk · contribs) about Don't Shoot Portland was WP:DUE for Andy Ngo. JzG (talk · contribs) stepped in and agreed with Cedar777's addition of the content. It's still in the article.
• On 10 June, you contested the removal of content by Thomas Meng (talk · contribs), which he alleged to be biased and poorly sourced. That's when Springee rebutted your claim, arguing that the BuzzFeed News piece in question is biased and that the statement might have been WP:UNDUE as well. You also contested some commentary by third parties about Thomas Meng (talk · contribs), again insisting that the repeatedly used term opinion is a misnomer in this discussion. The statement cited to the BFN piece is still in the article.
• On that same day, Springee argued with Cedar777 over an edit by Meng that condensed several citations to the same source, per WP:OVERCITE. Then, they mentioned out of the blue that they reverted one of your edits [256] that allegedly misrepresented the sources cited and was undue. Another argument ensues on the talk page, this time a bit longer and with more involved parties. Ultimately, Springee won the dispute.
• A discussion on 17 June about covering a recent attack against Ngo, where Springee was involed. They also challenged an alleged WP:SYNTH addition by SomerIsland (talk · contribs), but then flip-flopped.
• A discussion on 19 June where neither you nor Springee was involved, apart from an aside by the latter about naming references.
• A discussion on 21 June about an ambiguous sentence. Springee definitely had a good point to raise, and there was little or no dispute.
• A discussion began on 30 June about the weasel word widely as used in a statement about RS consensus. You dropped in and changed the word to frequently [257]. This word change was supported by other participants, apart from Springee, before TomReaan90 (talk · contribs) pivoted the discussion to a conversation about Al Jazeera and the Iraq War.
• That was the last discussion involving you, but it looks like subsequent discussions involving Springee are good-faith and they do not fight with anyone else.

In summary, Springee is editing Talk:Andy Ngo a lot because they are heavily involved in good-faith edits and discussions regarding the article. So it's clear that Springee's edits are unproblematic apart from their interactions with you, although I don't have enough evidence to evaluate your edits about Ngo. Maybe someone can evaluate the archives, but I need to go to bed now. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:26, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Feel free to look at my Ngo edits LaundryPizza03. I'd refer to diffs like this one as proof of my commitment to rigorously evaluating evidence on the page.[258] It's necessary to see this all in the context of how Springee fights at length to get flattering sources added to Ngo's page, no matter how feeble.

• For example, take Springee's extended contestation in April in favour of restoring material from "Lacorte News" (apparently an obscure source tied to Fox alum Ken LaCorte).[259] Springee was very lucky to avoid a topic ban later in April after an action brought by User:Dlthewave,[260] brought about after Springee made a protracted attempt in March-April to get material from the deprecated Daily Caller[261] and Daily Signal included on Ngo's page.[262] Although Springee had reverted material from the Daily Signal from Ngo's page in February on the (correct) basis that it wasn't an RS,[263] in March[264] and April[265] they defended Daily Signal's reliability on Ngo while rejecting WP:GREL-listed The Intercept,[266] as well as turning to other weak sources like Daily Wire, The Western Journal, and a celebrity gossip site called "Meaww" to buttress their LaCorte News point.[267] On 25 May there were happy to treat a website called "Katu", and the very non-impartial The College Fix as a reliable account of a BLM protest reported on by Ngo.[268] With sources like these, Springee has been hyper-permissive and emphasized context, while warning against rejecting sources outright.
• Compare this to the scrutiny they have subjected a recent 14-word sentence sourced to Rolling Stone and Jacobin (magazine) to: reverting it on 18 June,[269] extensively challenging it on the Ngo talk page[270] on the frankly, clearly incorrect basis that the Rolling Stone source didn't support the claim in the sentence,[271] opening a WP:NORN discussion on the sentence on 25 June,[272] and after their argument was comprehensively rejected, now maintaining the material is undue.[273] See also these extended challenges (both from April alone) Springee made to The Intercept[274] and Bellingcat, which Springee took to WP:RSN to see their point be quickly rebuffed[275] having contested Bellingcat content since November 2020,[276] plus objecting to a thorough and methodical Buzzfeed News piece in June.[277] Look at the stringency of Springee's evidentiary standards for Bellingcat and Daily Dot[278] compared with some of the above-mentioned obscure (and weak) sources more flattering to Ngo.

Go further back and you see block reverts of the SPLC,[279][280] Daily Beast,[281] Columbia Journalism Review,[282] The Guardian,[283], Salon (magazine) and Rolling Stone,[284][285][286] Washington Post and Los Angeles Times,[287][288][289] Seattle Times,[290], BuzzFeed News[291] Daily Dot,[292], Willamette Week[293] The Oregonian[294], the Los Angeles Times[295] - by no means a complete list. I've repeatedly reminded Springee of WP:ROWN without success. Springee often rejects new edits by invoking BLP, or employs an "injunction": block reverting an edit, starting a talk page discussion, and proceeding to resist any change at length on the talk page, while claiming there's no consensus for change. The clear, repeated pattern is that Springee fights hard to include sources seen to be flattering to Ngo, no matter how feeble, while those perceived as unflattering, even if high quality, are subject to impossibly high standards. I've seen them follow this same edit pattern across a range of political topics, and am happy to provide more diffs on request Noteduck (talk) 08:27, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

And this is more of the same falsehoods. What you call an "extended fight" was a civil and not long talk page discussion where Springee was on the same side as numerous other editors. The Daily Caller and Daily Signal stuff was dismissed already at AE. Meaww was only mentioned as a left-leaning source and alongside The Oregonian. He's right about Rolling Stone and Jacobin. The former is an entertainment magazine, not a serious news outlet, and does not have any pretenses of objectivity; the latter is openly opinionated and ideological for socialism. He's well within his rights on the rest, since context, due weight, and other policies matter, and discussion and being careful are very important on a WP:BLP. Many of those outlets are also inappropriate for political topics as they are very ideological and/or are not serious mainstream news sources that aim for objectivity, namely the Daily Beast, Salon, Willamette Week, and the Daily Dot. The only problem here is when editors such as yourself push for such glorified group blogs as sources on a BLP and then harass editors who disagree. Time to put a stop to it. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:25, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Addendum: As shown below, Noteduck revised their comment after I replied; the version I replied to is here. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:37, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Crossroads, I disagree that the Daily Caller/Daily Signal issue was "dismissed" at AE. It was in fact closed with a reminder to Springee to "Please be more careful with unreliable/deprecated sources" along with a RS/verifiability reminder to the only admin who supported his point of view. I share Noteduck's valid concern that Springee has been challenging clearly reliable sources as biased while at the same time promoting sources that are so unreliable that they've been deprecated. Frankly I don't see how a good-faith editor can challenge Jacobin as too biased to use, while pushing for inclusion of a Daily Caller cite. –dlthewave ☎ 19:11, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

"Pushing for inclusion of a Daily Caller cite" is a grossly misleading picture of what happened; the clarification and pushback on your AE report is explained there and I'm not relitigating it. Also, deprecation "is not a blanket retroactive "ban" on using the source in absolutely every situation", though one wouldn't be able to tell from the constant push to get every right-leaning opinion outlet as de facto banned while left-leaning opinion outlets are mostly marked as green at WP:RSP. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:47, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Crossroads, I recognize your opinion on the matter, but I need to ask you to respect the final outcome of the AE report instead of trying to relitigate. Although several editors (including yourself and one admin, who was admonished for their comments) did disagree, consensus among admins was clear: It was inappropriate to use Daily Caller in that context and Springee was reminded to be more careful with such sources. Unless you can explain how you interpret the outcome differently, I'm going to ask you to strike "The Daily Caller and Daily Signal stuff was dismissed already at AE" and the accusation "Pushing for inclusion of a Daily Caller cite" is a grossly misleading picture of what happened". I also ask that you strike "one wouldn't be able to tell from the constant push to get every right-leaning opinion outlet as de facto banned while left-leaning opinion outlets are mostly marked as green at WP:RSP" as inappropriate off-topic commentary. –dlthewave ☎ 22:12, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Noteduck, per WP:REDACT (talk page guideline) please do not edit your comments after other editors have replied. if anyone has already replied to or quoted your original comment, changing your comment may deprive any replies of their original context, and this should be avoided. This was mentioned to you early on in this discussion (without a specfic guideline) [[296]]. After being asked the first time you have continued to edit your comments after other editors have replied without proper edit markups (examples [[297]] [[298]][[299]][[300]]). Please follow talk page guidelines going forward. Springee (talk) 12:39, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Springee thank you for the useful heads up on WP:REDACT policy. I noticed that you weighed in on a discussion on talk:The Wall Street Journal today,[301] shortly after I entered the same discussion yesterday.[302] While you're of course welcome to do so, this isn't really commensurate with your stated wish to avoid me due to hounding or obstructionism. If my edits no long bother you perhaps make that clear Noteduck (talk) 05:52, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Noteduck, in fairness, Springee has actually been involved in discussion on that talk page concerning the WSJ's editorial board from before you even joined the project (diff). El_C 07:57, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

El_C they did indeed, but Springee's willingness to be involved in a new survey and discussion where I'm present and where we can respond to each others arguments doesn't suggest that they feel uncomfortable or crowded out by my edits. By the way Springee you said in your complaint that "over 50%" of my edits since March 25 have been about you "in some capacity". What do you mean by this exactly and how did you reach that figure? Noteduck (talk) 09:22, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Responding to the same RfC isn't WP:HOUNDING and wouldn't even be restricted by an WP:IBAN as long as you're not directly responding to each other. I too would be curious about the 50% statistic since some of the initial hounding accusations were also just Noteduck commenting in the same discussions as Springee. –dlthewave ☎ 16:29, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

IMO this misleading construction further shows what the situation is and that Springee needs and deserves some relief. Some have in essence said that my "just an oblique warning" proposal #2 is too mild and that is probably true, but this needs to brought to some type of conclusion to provide that relief. If it doesn't work, something stronger can be tried later. North8000 (talk) 12:18, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

That Noteduck should be topic-banned from post-1992 American politics, or at least the associated BLPs? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:06, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that a topic ban would be appropriate unless there's an overall pattern of disruption in the topic area. The accusations we're discussing here seem to be limited to their interactions with Springee. –dlthewave ☎ 16:31, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I was about to say much the same thing. XOR'easter (talk) 16:41, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Responding what the "something" in the "Something stronger can be tried later." would be is a matter of conjecture at this point. But a topic ban is not what came to mind when I wrote that. Certainly even what is on this ANI page itself reinforces the situation. Besides hounding, no editor should have to endure a continuing aggressive onslaught of such things including mis-characterizations. North8000 (talk) 20:08, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

North8000, your comment would be taken more seriously if you could specific examples of these mischaracterizations and what exactly is problematic about Noteduck's conduct in this discussion. –dlthewave ☎ 21:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Well asserting/implying that nobody takes my careful summary seriously is not a good way to start.North8000 (talk) 12:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

My assessment didn't come from just any one item, it was deriving from an overview of the whole thread here. A part of that overview is that IMO I'd guess that at least 90% of Noteduck's posts here have been trying to deprecate Springee rather than addressing the topic at hand. Regarding specifics, nearly every use of diffs in that type of post had a negative characterization (IMO mis-characterization) of Springee that did not arise from the diff itself. North8000 (talk) 12:33, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Can you point to one diff and explain why it's mischaracterized? I'm starting to suspect that you don't actually have any examples, since I've already asked before with no success. –dlthewave ☎ 12:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Based on limited encounters not going too well, I choose to not deeply engage with you. But one structural note....I identified "mis-characterization" as just IMO. My statement in that area without the "IMO" qualifier was "had a negative characterization....of Springee that did not arise from the diff itself." You (or anybody) should feel free to reject or accept my assessment, or to skim this thread to assess whether or not they think that assessment is correct or incorrect. North8000 (talk) 13:09, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

MordvinEvgen and sex difference information

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• MordvinEvgen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• GBFEE (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

MordvinEvgen traverses sex difference pages and closely related pages to synthesize and bias information. He adds sentences that shouldn't be found in a children's book, let alone an encyclopedia. For example, in the empathy article, he said "and the correlation of the chromosome with only the female sex is controversial, which is contrary to common sense."[303]

He's gotten multiple warning about the way he edits.[304] People have told him to stop adding his own analysis and conclusions to articles and to leave primary research behind him, but he continues.

Here are some recent challenges to his edits.[305][306][307]

When I said to him today that he should stop, he said he will continue. He severely insulted me and threatened me, saying, "YOU also don't publish the meta-analysis effect sizes, which is a dumb publishing method. You don't even have enough brains to open meta-analysis and arrange everything humanly. I said your edits will be removed in the future. If you think you will stop me, good luck..."[308] He put emphasis on "WILL."[309] — Preceding unsigned comment added by GBFEE (talk • contribs) 22:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I have added userlinks to the top of this report. Hopefully both parties will try to avoid WP:Personal attacks such as 'don't have enough brains'. Since GBFEE's account was just created today (June 30) I hope they are aware that Wikipedia has procedures for resolving disputes. EdJohnston (talk) 23:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I think procedures for resolving disputes with MordvinEvgen are bound for failure unless he doesn't rail against the Wikipedia "system" (his words) when it doesn't work the way he wants it to. He says I don't know science.[310] Someone should tell him good science isn't what he does. If it was, his edits wouldn't keep getting removed for synthesizing the research and less than optimal sourcing, and he wouldn't keep getting warnings about them. He says I'm removing stuff I don't like, but I encourage people to look at his edits, many of which have been challenged by editors because he cuts what he doesn't like and inserts his commentary or own framing of the research. Multiple complaints from others about his edits are in the page histories. He's complained that I said he uses his personal commentary. He does. None of the sources say anything like "contrary to common sense"[311] or "It should be noted right away that the differences found in the brain do not necessarily mean differences in cognitive parameters." or "However, it is worth noting that evolutionary theories rarely reflect the true nature of the differences."[312]

He says he plans to modify all of my edits. If he does, more of the same will come from him. He doesn't care for secondary and tertiary sources. Look at his newest complaint about tertiary sources, Wikipedia's unwillingness to give primary sources the same mouthpiece, and thoughts about me.[313] He calls me his opponent and an "it", and says he "can give a lot of examples of the failure of both your system" and my behavior. Does this sound like a person willing to listen and defer to the reviews of topics? He hasn't listened for three months! So what is the appropriate course of action for anyone to take regarding this editor if it's not to report him here? GBFEE (talk) 01:41, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Mordvin clearly has a lot of knowledge about some life science topics, but since his debut 32 days ago, he either hasn't quite assimilated some basic principles of verifiability and sourcing, or doesn't agree with them; likewise for some behavioral guidelines with respect to collaboration and civility. Most recently, as GBFEE pointed out in the OP, Mordvin has been mixing it up at Sex differences in psychology, in this case, with Crossroads. I don't expect all new editors to be on board and comfortable with WP:PRIMARY and WP:MEDRS within a month, but Mordvin has locked horns with various editors a number of times already on these points, and is way too smart to claim ignorance. C'mon, Mordvin; you can be a great editor; just a wee dash of humility, a willingness to learn the particular environment of Wikipedia, and collaborate with other editors, and you will be. It's easier to develop good habits while you're still relatively new here. It's best to avoid doing things that motivate other editors to want to spend their free time scrutinizing your activities and bringing them here to this board. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 06:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

• Good, someone opened a report on this user. I wasn't even aware of how widespread the problems were, but was considering opening a report if the issues continued. Admins need to take seriously what GBFEE says above. Here MordvinEvgen claims they were "adding more secondary sources and removing the primary ones"; in fact they did the opposite. After I reverted them, they made these edits, with unsourced original research and editorializing like "it is clear that stereotypes, expectations, and other social parameters can qualitatively influence...learning disabilities"; they also, for example, added a whole paragraph at the bottom using primary sources to argue against secondary ones, which is clearly against WP:MEDRS. At User talk:MordvinEvgen, you can see they have been told to not do this sort of thing for months. You can also see there from their arguments that they seem to give excessive weight to their own POV and edit based on their own ideas or findings. WP:Competence is required; this user should not be editing this topic area if they're going to keep adding primary sources and arguing on that basis. Pre-existing primary sources (that are not merely being cited alongside secondary sources) don't need to stay; but secondary academic sources (books and review articles) carry far more WP:WEIGHT than individual studies, of which there are many and which can easily be cherry-picked. They also should be more honest in their edit summaries and avoid personal attacks. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:22, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm allowed to link to his IP address here, but he made an edit as an IP address a few hours ago and I reverted him a few minutes ago because the tiny piece he removed is in one of the resources. I think he's waiting for this thread to end, and then he'll go back to doing what he does. GBFEE (talk) 21:52, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• I had a look at User_talk:MordvinEvgen and some recent diffs. They show a serious problem but I'm not sure there is quite enough to warrant action now. I can't see a short block as solving anything so the choices are site ban (unlikely from what I've seen), indefinite block by courageous admin (possible), or continue as normal. Assuming the result is continue, feel free to notify me if problems persist and I'll see if an indefinite block is justified. @MordvinEvgen: You must not "balance" review sources with your own analysis. You might be correct or you might not: that is not the issue. The problem is that at Wikipedia such original research is not permitted because there is no end to it and no way for other editors to assess the situation (what if X adds a point and Y removes it: such a situation cannot be resolved without an objective secondary source as there is no editorial committee at Wikipedia). Johnuniq (talk) 00:46, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Recommend closing this thread with no action per the advice of User:Johnuniq. It is my guess that an individual admin will feel able to take action if User:MordvinEvgen returns to Wikipedia and continues to add their own original research to articles about sex differences. Any more personal attacks from MordvinEvgen such as 'don't have enough brains' or any more threats of edit warring might also be enough for a block. EdJohnston (talk) 02:04, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lugnuts' mass-creation

Hello. Today, I stumbled upon User:Lugnuts and found that they are back to their old ways again - creating one or two-line stubs, using database entries as sources even for living people's birth date which is a serious breach of WP:BLP.

Recently, community decided to remove their autopatrolled rights and allowed them to edit and create articles without any restriction based on promise that they will research-well and will follow WP:RS strictly. But, here we are again, they are creating permastubs within span of two minutes and (Redacted)

Now, they are also prolific contributor and their edits are more than 1M and we need more of them. What I suggest now to is give them a rest on article creation (Redacted)and can continue editing articles as they are doing. That will help them to break their habits and may help them to mend their ways.

Lastly, we don't want to loose them either, so article creation restriction is required now as we have already given them a chance. Hope they will cope up with this and will abide by community's advice this time around. Thanks. 95.145.220.124 (talk) 09:18, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Database sources such as Olympedia are reliable sources so perfectly valid for dates of birth- no evidence has been given to the contrary, and if you want to debate this, it should be done at WP:RSN, not by starting an ANI thread about an editor. And not all of these are permastubs- I'm sure most of them could be expanded at some point in the future, and I have historically expanded many articles created as stubs by Lugnuts, which demonstrated my point. Stubs are valid articles, they're just articles that have yet to be expanded. Also, please refrain from making assertions about other users- saying they have OCD is not appropriate, and may be considered a personal attack. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:28, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

IP: I have redacted the parts of your complaint where you make comments about another editor's mental health, and where you claim knowledge of another editor's motivations. Please do not make such comments again, particularly with regards to other editors' mental health.

Have you taken any steps to discuss the particular concerns about these sources anywhere? For example by asking Lugnuts whether he is confident that the sources are reliable, or raising a query at WP:RSN? He might have responded well to a good faith request that he stop creating them while the sources were discussed. Girth Summit _(blether) 09:30, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

All the ANI thread stated was the removal of the auto-patrolled right, which happened, and no other restrictions. Since then every single article I've created has been patrolled by another user. Here's a list of the most prolific in that area. In that three months, each page has been flagged as patrolled, with no issues of concern raised (that I can recall). Maybe the IP would like to question those other users to find any issues, or indeed how they know so much about this specific issue for a new user. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:38, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm still on a Wikibreak but noticed this and felt it was important enough for a quick comment. User:Joseph2302 is quite wrong and should not touch any WP:BLP until they re-familiarise themselves with policy. Nor should Lugnuts assuming the IP's summation is accurate. Database sources, even if they are WP:RS cannot reasonably be considered "widely published" and are generally not "sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public". They should not be used as the sole source for a date of birth. If there are no better sources, the content stays out of BLPs. It does not matter how confident editors are that the information is correct. The whole point of BLP policy on this matter is that we need to go beyond the information simply being correct. Whatever else Lugnuts may or may not be up to, if they are indeed violating BLP and they refuse to self-correct, they need to be topic banned. N.B. because I will be logging out straight after, I will point BLPN to this discussion. Nil Einne (talk)

By all means start a discussion at WP:RSN or WP:BLPN about this, but don't threaten me by telling me that I don't understand WP:BLP. I understand it perfectly well, and will not be adhering to your threat that I must stop editing BLPs simply because you disagree on one source. I consider the above a threat and a personal attack on my competency as an editor. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:00, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

My view is that database entries about non-notable sportspeople should be presented not as biographies (which they aren't), but as list entries. Reyk _YO! 09:59, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

No comment on Lugnuts, but I will say it is not appropriate to log out of your account to make a complaint against an editor. It should be done through your primary account. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 10:00, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

A BLP discussion has been started at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Possible BLPDOB problem- this should smooth out the BLP-related issues. Though I still question the conduct of an IP whose first edit is a personal attack, and another editor who demands that I must not edit BLPs simply because I disagree with them about the reliability of one source. Both of those things need admin consideration, the sourcing doesn't (as it needs the WP:BLPN discussion). Joseph2302 (talk) 10:08, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

If that is their first edit then I am a unicorn. This is ax grinding while evading scrutiny plain and simple. I have already given them a warning and will follow through on it if they continue. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 10:16, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this underhandedness does detract from what is otherwise a legitimate concern. That and the ad hominems. Reyk _YO! 12:14, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

• I don't have any BLP issues, but I do have notability issues. Lugnuts created stubs for a bunch of Venezuelan softball players from the 2008 Olympics, but on the team lineups I can find from that event, some of them do not appear. I'm pretty sure that being a non-playing squad member of an Olympic team is not notability, especially if one can find nothing else out about them. Black Kite (talk) 10:41, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi Black Kite. I've just double-checked all those, and they did all take part (at the Olympics) at some stage. For example, Bheiglys Mujica's bio states Competed in Olympic Games. Compare with Kristen Karanzias of Greece who is listed as a non-starter, and doesn't have a wiki-article. Also, most if not all of the Venezuelan team won medals at other multi-national tournaments, such as the Pan-Am Games. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 11:05, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Good stuff. I couldn't find team line-ups for all the games, so I'm guessing that they appeared in the ones I couldn't find. Black Kite (talk) 12:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

• OK, I registered an account. What about Máximo Ramírez, BLP DOB sourced with worldfootball.net. There are countless such problematic bios created recently. John Dirksen (talk) 14:31, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

• John Dirksen Are you going to ignore the fact that your "first" edit was to raise this ANI thread? Clearly you've had other accounts that you're not being honest about.... Joseph2302 (talk) 14:37, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
  • To be fair, it's possible that John has been a dynamic IP editor in the past and really hasn't created an account before. Have people forgotten that IPs are very dynamic, and there are a good number of long time IP editors?Jackattack1597 (talk) 23:49, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

• The date of birth of footballers do tend to be the subject of reliable sources given the enormous interest in the sport, for example, in the U.K, The PFA Premier & Football League players' records 1946-2015 contains thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of dates of birth of people who have played in the Football League and Premier League. Now, I don’t know whether worldfootball.net is a reliable source (I note it is published by Heim:Spiel, a company that specialises in sport data) but that’s a discussion, I think, for WT:FOOTY and WP:RSN, not here. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 02:05, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

References

• Just noting that I also have concerns about including DOBs on BLPs that are sourced to a single database as WP:BLPDOB requires DOBs to be "widely published by reliable sources". The BLP policy for DOBs is about a privacy concern, rather than merely an issue of verifiability or reliability ("the standard for inclusion of personal information of living persons is higher than mere existence of a reliable source that could be verified"). As I also stated on the BLPN thread, this concern should be even more important if the articles are about relatively non-notable individuals. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 18:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
• FWIW, if the implied anomaly here is Lugnuts “mass creating stubs” Whilst I haven’t bothered to read every entry here, I do want to address the OP specifically, first off, please login into your main account if anyone is to take you seriously, secondly, The “mass creation of stubs on the part of Lugnuts meet WP:PSA, so that’s a non issue. AFAIK, Lugnuts has a decent knowledge of what is contained in WP:RS and possess the knowledge of how to optimize them, if you are not in agreement with the sources used to back up a DOB in a given article, you are more than welcome to remove the DOB and initiate a dialogue with Lugnuts on the tp of the given article where a consensus should be made, only if that fails is ANI and it’s worthless drama be initiated. Celestina007 (talk) 23:09, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
• I am about to go on a week-long Wikibreak, but I thought I'd pop in before I do so. I think people complaining may have a point when they claim that the inclusion of birthdates for slightly notable individuals violates WP:BLP. However, I am not sure because the databases themselves may be getting the information from a wide range of sources. More discussion is needed. I oppose any further sanctions to one of our most active article creators of all time. These "WP:BLP violations" (if they are) are much milder than a lot of other ones on stubs. Scorpions13256 (talk) 01:02, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
• Lugnuts should be banned from creating new articles. He has over and over again shown a complete disregard for the GNG.John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:42, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
• I am troubled by the mass-creation of bio stub articles reliant entirely on sports-reference.com and cricinfo.com (or similar low-quality database sources), and oppose it as I don't think passing mentions in databases are sufficient to establish notability, but the basic fact is that (unlike the GEO community) the sports bio articles community just haven't decided yet to tighten up on this. Reviewing Lugnuts' more recent articles I can see some evidence of mass-creation, e.g.,:

• On 12 July, 22 articles created in 58 minutes (11:50 - 12:48). One article every ~130 seconds.
• On 11 July, 36 articles created in 54 minutes (17:29 - 18:23). One article every ~93 seconds.

But I suppose it could be said that many of these are redirects. I think ANI was not the place to bring this, though a general reminder that editors are expected to edit carefully, that mass-creation of articles (even by WP:MEATBOT techniques) is to be avoided without first seeking consensus to create, would not go amiss. FOARP (talk) 15:05, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Databases, even when reliable, do not contribute to notability, and the previous ANI close mentioned that Lugnuts' mass creations are problematic because they place a burden on other editors to review them for notability. It is clear that removing Autopatrol has not resolved the issue, since these stubs with no assertion of notability are still passing NPP, so it may be time for an article creation ban. –dlthewave ☎ 17:33, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

They all have an assetion of notability, hence their creation. The removal of the auto-patrol right was so the wider community could look at my article creations. I've already linked to a list of editors that do the bulk of the patroling. To my knowledge, they have found nothing amiss. Nothing has slipped through the NPP process, so are they doing a bad job? Lets ask them: @Celestina007, Elli, Girth Summit, Govvy, Joseywales1961, John B123, Jupitus Smart, and Onel5969:. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 19:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay, picking one at random, what makes Clara Vázquez notable? I only see two database sources which would not be considered significant coverage per WP:GNG. –dlthewave ☎ 19:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

All Lugnuts's recent articles I've reviewed at NPP have met WP:NOLYMPICS. Not sure where stubs with no assertion of notability are still passing NPP is coming from? If they are that unhappy with the efforts of NP Patrollers perhaps they'd like to take over and show us how it should be done? I agree with the various other editors above that ANI isn't the place for this discussion. --John B123 (talk) 19:46, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you for the mention and my first (and only I hope) visit to ANI. I have reviewed quite a few football (soccer) stubs created by Lugnuts over the past few months, I would say each of these would survive AfD (I would vote keep at any rate), they all related to players who have played for national teams mostly in the South American Copa America competition in earlier years. Each article has a talk page (with project biographies, football and the country), a stub mark, a short description, plenty of relevant categories and at least 2 sources i.e. perfectly formed stub articles for notable international footballers who up to now were without articles. JW 1961 ^Talk 19:59, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
• First, I think the standard should be to hold Lugnuts to the same standard we hold any editor to. Keeping that in mind, I see hundreds of these types of stubs every month, from a plethora of editors, and they all get marked "reviewed", based on the history of prodding them, or taking them to AfD and having them kept. I've taken articles (which I've marked for improvement, and have gone month(s) without seeing any improvement) with a single ref to Soccerway, get kept at AfD. I agree that I don't think this is an ANI issue. Appears to be a non-issue at this point. Regarding the above question (and I'm not the editor who reviewed it) on Clara Vázquez, WP:NOLYMPICS would apply. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 20:00, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Onel and John B123, I do appreciate the work that is done at NPP and am not trying to discredit in any way. My concern is that WP:NSPORTS (which encompasses WP:NOLYMPICS) does not replace GNG; it is merely a guide to help determine whether significant coverage is likely to exist. Quoting the FAQ at the top: Q2: If a sports figure meets the criteria specified in a sports-specific notability guideline, does this mean he/she does not have to meet the general notability guideline? A2: No, the article must still eventually provide sources indicating that the subject meets the general notability guideline. It's concerning to see mass article creation based on the likely existence of significant coverage, with no effort to actually find that coverage or prove that it exists.

I do realize that there's a disconnect between our notability guidelines, which require that articles demonstrate significant coverage, and common practice at NPP/AfD, which often allow articles with no proof of notability. It seems that these decisions are not always made according to the relevant guideline. –dlthewave ☎ 20:12, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Dlthewave: there's de jure policy, and there's de facto policy. The de facto standard is, as you say, that a presumption of notability is notability (though it can in some rare cases be refuted). Expecting random NPPs to deviate from that for a particular editor isn't really fair - changing this view would probably require a large and somewhat messy RfC. Feel free to go ahead with that - but I'm not sure it would be likely to succeed. Elli (talk | contribs) 20:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, the article must still eventually provide sources indicating that the subject meets the general notability guideline. I think the operative word here is eventually. That would infer that at the time of creation meeting WP:NSPORTS is sufficient. Also from WP:ARTN: if the source material exists, even very poor writing and referencing within a Wikipedia article will not decrease the subject's notability. The question here seems to be are https://www.olympedia.org/ and https://olympics.com/ reliable sources. That's not a matter for ANI.

In an ideal world all articles would be perfectly referenced (amongst other things}. In the real world things are different. Looking at the articles that come through NPP, especially from a few other multiple stub creators, Lugnut's articles are not the ones that cause concern. --John B123 (talk) 20:56, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks for the mention, Lugnuts. While I somewhat disagree with our loose SNGs here - that's what we have - and the articles of yours that I have seen in NPP haven't run afoul of them. The proper way for unsatisfied editors to deal with this is an RfC, not taking action against individual editors. I do think not having auto-patrolled is reasonable here - since your articles are generally pretty easy to review, there's not too much of a load on the NPP system. Elli (talk | contribs) 20:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think my workload on new page patrol warrants much input here, however from my experience of Lugnuts contributions, I have seen a lot, but I am not sure I would call it overkill. Every so often I've double checked sources, most of the time I feel they are perfectly valid contributions to wikipedia. I really don't see the point for this ANI and feel that posting from an IP is a red-flag indicator. Govvy (talk) 20:54, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Govvy: the issue as it was last time is that he was creating some stubs with unreliable sources, and no one noticed until he had created hundreds of them. NPP allows us to make sure that doesn't become an issue before anyone wastes a lot of time. Elli (talk | contribs) 21:12, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Placeholder I have something I want to say here, but it's non-trivial and I have to check a few things, and won't have time until tomorrow. Please don't block/ban anyone hastily! Girth Summit _(blether) 21:51, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
• AFAIK, notability has never necessarily being the problem but the “mass creation” of articles which apparently irate/vexes some persons. I stand to be corrected, but I have seen somewhere editors are encouraged to “create something! or anything! I think it’s somewhere in WP:STUB as earlier stated all stubs made by Lugnuts meet WP:PSA, honestly this is getting rather tiring. Oh and yeah, I’m seconding Govvy. Celestina007 (talk) 22:57, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment Olympic athletes are presumed notable per WP:NOLY, so anyone citing Lugnuts' Olympic stubs as a reason to ban him from creating articles has no policy to back them up. I have also seen him create articles for athletes who competed on national football teams. I am not aware of the relevant guideline, but I am fairly certain that they are presumed notable too, provided that they actually competed. If Lugnuts' articles were truly problematic, a reviewer would have told him. I create similar stubs For the record, I thought the revoking of his Autopatrolled right was justified for mass-citing an unreliable source. However, all subsequent articles have been problem-free. I do not see any need for an article creation ban, or even an AFC restriction. Honestly, this situation sounds like a pitifully desperate attempt to sanction someone. Scorpions13256 (talk) 23:42, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Persistent disruptive editing by User:Ethan2345678

Reporting Ethan2345678 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) again since the previous report was archived without action. This time, the user is persistently removing useful links.[314][315][316][317][318] Their talk page is filled with warnings, to which they respond with brief thank-yous before proceeding with their disruption.[319] KyleJoan^talk 10:14, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

This user has misunderstood MOS:SURNAME and other naming conventions, often citing it when making unrelated, needless changes despite multiple explanations. Other disruptive edits include ignoring linked policy explanations and providing useless edit summaries, even after warnings. They've also miscomprehended talk page posts (perhaps due to a slight language impediment), used arbitrary reasoning in discussion, and re-added personal information onto their user page despite a warning. At the very least, I think their talk page, littered with warnings that remain greatly ignored, is an indicator of the state of their contributions to Wikipedia. Reverting their disruption is getting repetitive.--Bettydaisies (talk) 18:05, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not certain if it's relevant (apologies if it is not), but this recent edit to Basic English appears similar to some noted by Bettydaisies. I happened to note this ANI on Ethan2345678's talk page when asking about a subsequent edit that removed internal links, not unlike what KyleJoan noted. Cnilep (talk) 02:28, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I want to apologize on what I did on these articles. By now, I start to familarise on manual of styles and guidelines. And I’ve tried(I hope) to use edit summaries more proficiently and summarize about what I’ve edited on pages. I’ll be more careful in the future about this, especially about naming conventions, links and probably what other people warned me in my talk page. I want to just improve this encyclopedia, thank you. Ethan2345678 (talk) 03:20, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Yet you've continued, even after this response. You've misunderstood MOS:OL by unlinking "somewhat familiar" phrasing, missed the MOS:DUPLINK policy on lead links, regarded England and Jordan to the same recognitive level as Japan (mentioned in OL), and, in the same edit, going for another irrelevant, unconstructive MOS:SURNAME citation you've been repeatedly warned against.--Bettydaisies (talk) 04:43, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Bettydaisies, I don't understand your point, or your verb+preposition ("regarded to?). England and Jordan and Japan are all well-known enough to be unlinked. Drmies (talk) 14:10, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Ethan2345678, Thank you for your response and we appreciate what you said about wanting to improve Wikipedia. But please consider this: YOU, as an individual editor can do very little to improve the overall quality of this encyclopedia. It's just too big, with too many articles and too many people making uninformed or destructive edits at the same time as you are trying to improve it. Therefore, it is only through COLLABORATION with other editors that we, working together and not against each other, can make a real difference. I only know this because at one time I, too, thought that I could make a difference by my own individual efforts, until I embraced the spirit of collaboration with others. Does that make sense? So, as another editor put it, please slow down and try to focus on a narrowly targeted set of articles to work on. Since you yourself have stated that your English language skills need a certain level of improvement, perhaps you should focus more on controlling pure WP:VANDALISM or improving articles that are mere stubs or even start-class articles that need a lot of work, as opposed to WP:GOOD or WP:FEATURED or articles that are already well on their way to this level of quality. Please, PLEASE consider these things and know that I am not criticizing you, just trying to offer constructive suggestions. I welcome your comments on this and I'm sure everybody else who is following this thread would love to read them as well. Thank you, Johnnie Bob (talk) 04:08, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

What is “Start-class articles”? Also, I edited at a very high rate, so there’ll be some errors. I think my English is strong enough but I made many errors because I was too fast. So maybe I have to slow down. Ethan2345678 (talk) 04:13, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Ethan2345678, thank you for your response and for thinking about this. See Wikipedia:Content assessment for definitions of the different article classes. Feel free to message me at any time on my talk page for related discussion. This thread will probably be closed or archived soon by the people who run this page. Cheers, Johnnie Bob (talk) 05:30, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

And once again, making useless edit summaries and changing referential terminology for no reason. It's unfortunate this thread hasn't received administrator attention, which might encourage you to read this thread much more carefully.--Bettydaisies (talk) 06:47, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Bump. Ethan2345678 was previously copy-editing, despite what they admit is a less than perfect grasp of English and including many UK articles, where they ran into trouble changing the way members of the Royal Family are referred to based on a misunderstanding of the MOS guidelines on surnames; these two well-intentioned edits also show a lack of awareness of non-US context. Overall, the editor appears to be going mainly on personal taste; this edit, for example, added a link to New York City (surely as well known as the countries to which they have been removing links) to a plage replete with links, on the stated grounds of the page being underlinked. (I looked at that edit because the previous edit to that page was the last where they used the strange "Updated since your last visit" edit summary highlighted by Bettydaisies above.) They have since refocused on vandalism-patrolling, possibly based on a well intentioned suggestion, but they are reverting and warning for substantially good-faith edits such as this (corrects the team name to match the pipe; a player whose transfer has been recently announced, the article is being changed a lot and I'm not sure what the correct number of caps and goals for his previous team is so haven't edited it myself). Since Ethan2345678 was miscopying the warning templates, someone has now suggested using Twinkle, but I do not believe they are competent to do vandal patrolling, and they have already admitted above that they were working too fast. I am going to suggest on their talk page that they pivot again to much simpler maintenance tasks. Reverting people, they are doing as much harm as good and one reverted editor has already contested on Ethan2345678's talk page their very strongly worded objection to use of a non-English word. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:04, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Ethan2345678 has continued to misunderstand MOS:OL and MOS:SURNAME after multiple warnings, necessitating reverts. This is is getting tiring. WP:COMPETENCE is beginning to come into play here--Bettydaisies (talk) 04:18, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Yngvadottir, thanks for weighing in here. I'm also leaning in that direction. What I find most troubling is this pretense at recognition, and yet the edits keep coming. Someone who keeps making mistakes and keeps apologizing for them should be editing at a "high rate", as they indicated themselves. "Updated since your last visit" is them copying a phrase, I think, but it is indicative of what is going on: a barely competent editor who uses crutches like copied phrases, who shifts to another area when they are criticized, but can't let go of their fascination with names, for instance. Thing is, I don't know what to do about it--they're clearly not listening. Should I block? Will that help in improving the editor, or are we just doing damage control? What would you do? Drmies (talk) 14:10, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Is there any possibility this editor could be convinced to edit in areas where they at least have knowledge of the subject matter? It's hard enough to edit in a second language without also adding in lack of subject knowledge. They seem to be in Thailand. Maybe editing on Thai subjects? —valereee (talk) 14:28, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

The problem is that they don't seem to either be reading or understanding policy, and are being disruptive in literally everything they've been doing. They've just had a go at doing some clean-up tagging, the second edit of which was this ridiculous tag of a two line stub as having a lead too short to summarise the article [320]. It honestly seems like we have an intractable CIR issue here - the repeating pattern consists of them making problematic edits and being given lots of good advice on how to improve, to which they respond that they understand and they'll do better in the future, followed by them immediately going off to do more of the same kind of problematic edits. If they can't do antivandalism work properly, can't do copyediting properly, can't do cleanup work properly and are unwilling or unable to listen to advice what is there for them to do here realistically? 192.76.8.91 (talk) 15:00, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Also a look at their Thai Wikipedia talk page shows a page full of warnings related to similar issues they've had here (i.e. making a problematic edit, promising not to do it again, then immediatley doing it again), three blocks for disruptive editing and a notice that they're on their last chance to improve, so I'm doubtful that restricting them to Thai topics will lead to a miraculous improvement in their work here. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 15:23, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I have also noticed the 'warnings' Ethan2345678 is leaving on user pages, he is jumping straight in with a level 4 warning. As with the comment above, I have also removed a few 'too short lede' tags from other articles that Ethan2345678 has added, each one being completely unnecessary, it is clear that he has no knowledge of wiki policy and seems unwilling/unable to listen to more experienced wiki users. Tommi1986 ^{let's talk!} 15:34, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• I've blocked them indefinitely. They seem to be editing in good faith, but simply too many errors, at too high a rate, and way too many false accusations of vandalism. And to top it all off, unwilling or unable to take on board other people's advice. If someone thinks they can mentor Ethan, I have no objection to an admin unblocking with some restrictions, but I'm not optimistic. Finally, can we please stop recommending to editors causing problems in one area to concentrate on vandal fighting instead!? --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:47, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

↑↑↑Can I get an "AMEN" up in here?!-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:12, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Just posting in the interests of transparency - I have offered to mentor the user following a successful unblock per WP:SO. I suggested the editor wait six months at least for an unblock, during which they could improve upon their linguistic skills and understanding of English (I am under the impression that it isn’t their first language). Patient Zero^talk 18:22, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I will not recommend anti-vandalism work to anyone in the future unless I am reasonably sure they can handle it. Johnnie Bob (talk) 20:52, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

User:E-960 topic ban violations

• E-960 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• August 14, 2020: TBANed by the community "from Christianity and European secular politics, broadly construed." [321] Closed and logged by Wugapodes [322]
• June 29, 2021: blocked for 1 week by Girth Summit for violating the TBAN [323] (see contribs, note edits to The Holocaust (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and History of Jews in Poland (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs))
• June 30: unblock request [324]
• July 3: unblock request declined by JBW [325]
• July 7: back to editing The Holocaust [326] and History of Jews in Poland [327] [328] Levivich 15:51, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

How this --> [329] belongs to Christianity and European secular politics Levivich? - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:58, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

.. or this -->[330] ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:03, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Which of the words "European," "secular," and "politics" does not apply to The Holocaust? Levivich 17:24, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

None...Could you explain better? I don't grasp it.. - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:51, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Clearly none of those edits were about Christianity. "European secular politics" is more difficult to assess because it's far from clear what that's intended to mean. I looked through the discussion which led to the ban to seek clarification, but didn't see anything there which clarified the question. (Though I may possibly have missed something due to a TLDR effect.) In fact it isn't clear to me how Wugapodes found a consensus for "European secular politics" in that discussion. Some of the editing reported here is perhaps in the spirit of some of that which led to the topic ban ( e.g. inserting the idea that the Holocaust in Poland was done only by Germans), and so some editors may think it should be covered by the ban, but given the vague wording of the ban I don't think it would be fair to treat it as a ban violation. I suggest that the best way forward may be to take no action now, but for editors to discuss possible ways to clarify the scope of the ban. JBW (talk) 17:04, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

It's been almost a year and I don't have time to go through the discussion again. From my close it seems my thinking was that some people wanted a TBAN from European politics writ large, while others wanted it more narrowly tailored to European politics as it relates to religion (i.e., secularism). I agree that it's not clear, I even said in the close "Participants weren't clear on what that means", but we've since clarified it somewhat. For example, this discussion clarified that the TBAN covers "political topics with strong ties to Christian ethics" such as abortion and homosexuality. A week ago E-960 just blatantly violated the Christianity prong of the TBAN for which they were blocked (report), and the reporting editor also raised concerns about E-960's editing of The Holocaust article. I'm personally beyond the point of assuming a good faith misunderstanding about the scope of the ban; to me it seems like they're intentionally pushing the limits of what's allowed. The goal of bans is to stop disruption and wasting editors' time, not be an endless source of wikilawyering. I'm fine with clarifying the scope of the TBAN, but I doubt we could craft one that won't be so squishy as to allow continued breaching experiments. Absent an unambiguous TBAN, I'd suggest we impose the CBAN some editors suggested last August. — Wug·a·po·des​ 20:34, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Folks, you have to be clear here. Seriously. Otherwise, it's a puzzle for the person that is under these unclear restrictions. Sanctions at this point would be more than unfair. I'm copy-pasting your evaluation Wug· while you were imposing the ban:

There is consensus for a community imposed TBAN from Christianity and European secular politics, broadly construed. Participants weren't clear on what that means but my understanding from the discussion is that it includes: (1) any edit relating to the topic of Christianity, broadly construed, and (2) any edits relating to secularism, broadly construed, in European politics. Since that's an interpretation of the discussion, I want to explain specifically how I came to that conclusion. The original proposal was a topic ban from all religious topics, not simply European religious topics, and some editors explicitly stated they wanted "Christianity and European politics" as more tailored to the area of disruption. In discussing what that area of disruption was, narrowing "religion" to "Christianity" was pretty strightforward, but participants tended to focus on European politics as it related to the editor's views of secularist politics rather than European politics writ large. Some people did suggest they intended the broader "all European politics" interpretation, but there's not a clear consensus for the broad interpretation. Either way, editors suggest E-960 take some time to cool off, and their willingness to enter into a voluntary TBAN shows they understand that necessity. Some suggested a cban, but there was no consensus at this time. Some suggested a block, but per the discussion and WP:COOLDOWN there is no consensus to impose a block at this time.

The user under sanction didn't breach any of the above. - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:42, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

First, I don't see how editing The Holocaust is related to the topic ban scope, unless it is the extremely broadly construed, where of course any edit to anything related to Europe is wrong. I mean, sure, The Holocaust was carried out by Europeans, some of whom were Christians, interested in politics, and Nazi Germany was obviously secular and political, errr... Yeah, so I don't see how this is a TBAN violation. Given that E-960 had not breached the ban for nearly a year, and has now been hit with this weird critique, I suggest that A, we vacate ban, and B, BOOMERANG is employed to examine those who reported him for BATTLEGROUND mentality. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:25, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

E-960 was blocked just last month for violating the ban. It did not include (AFAIK, since I wasn't involved there), some of his edits on Poland and a couple of other articles: [331][332][333][334][335][336] (the IPN, mentioned in a couple of these, is a government agency). François Robere (talk) 07:07, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• Last week's violation also broke the Christianity portion of the ban. This week's editing of the Holocaust breaks the "European secular politics" portion of the ban. The Holocaust was the state-directed murder of six million Jews by European Christians in Europe. The victims of the Holocaust were chosen on the basis of their religious background. The Nazi justification of the murder as being motivated by Scientific racism, is pseudo-scientific nonsense, the victims were solely selected on the basis of their religion and their ancestors' religion. The Holocaust falls within politics, and specifically secular politics, being a state act of murder on the basis of nullifying Freedom of religion. The Nuremberg Laws preceding the Holocaust make the religious basis of this murder obvious, as this source points out:

  According to the Nuremberg Laws, a person with three or four Jewish grandparents was a Jew. A grandparent was considered Jewish if they belonged to the Jewish religious community. Thus, the Nazis defined Jews by their religion (Judaism), and not by the supposed racial traits that Nazism attributed to Jews.

  State murder of people on the basis of their religious background (Britannica: "the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II") is an extreme case of anti-secular politics.--Astral Leap (talk) 06:12, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

This is stretching the definition/scope of the ban to the point where it’s hard not to question the good faith behind these demands for sanctions. This kind of WP:BATTLEGROUND and attempts to WP:WIKILAWYER really do eventually stray into harassment/griefing of the target. Volunteer Marek 06:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not sure how my most recent edits even come close to violating the TBAN, it's a historical issue, not one related to Christianity or Secular European Politics (Abortion, LGBT issues, Separation of Church and State, discrimnation on the basis of Christianity, etc.). When someone says SECULAR politics it usually refers to issues which I listed above, otherwise it's just POLITICS, and the whole point of adding the word SECULAR is to differentiate from ALL POLITICS. So, let's deconstruct my TBAN which resulted from edits on the Religion in the European Union article. I would assume that it makes sense to impose a ban on topics related to Christianity or politics that involve matters connected with religious beliefs or secular/humanist ideas (as we have a clash between the two in Europe and elsewhere). However, based on the most recent charges against me, apparently I would violate my TBAN if I discussed the current and ongoing issues related to the Coal Mine Dispute between Poland and the Czech Rep., because a political dispute over a coal mine is SECURL POLITICS to some folks, and apparently it makes sense to accuse me of violating the TBAN because the issue of coal mines in Europe is related to the article from which my TBAN stems from Religion in the European Union. We all know how EU energy politics is related to EU politics on Religion. Same can be said for trying to correlate history with current Secular European Politics. --E-960 (talk) 12:22, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

The definition of SECULARISM in SECULAR POLITICS states: "In political terms, secularism is a movement towards the separation of religion and government." So, how are my most recent edits related to this and fall under Christianity and European Secular Politics? --E-960 (talk) 12:40, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Secular" does not mean the same thing as "secularism." The TBAN is written as "European secular politics" but if it's meant to be "European secularism politics," that's something different. Frankly I wouldn't have filed this if it was "secularism" instead of "secular." Levivich 14:54, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

  You're right Levivich, but in fairness to E-960, Secular politics is a redirect for Secularism. I don't know whether that's valid or not, but it could at least add to the confusion here about what the intended scope of the TBan was. Girth Summit _(blether) 15:10, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

  IMO secular politics shouldn't be a redirect to secularism but that's neither here nor there. I agree there's enough confusion about the scope of the tban to merit some clarification. I also share Wug's concern about boundary pushing, given E made edits to the same articles that led to the block immediately after the block expired, but a clarification of the tban scope might help with that, too. I guess the Nazis were secularist as well as secular, so the entirety of The Holocaust might still be covered under a secularist politics TBAN, but I haven't thought enough about that particular point yet to make up my mind. Levivich 15:25, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I think this is like moving the goal posts in the middle of the game. Wug clearly differentiated between Secular Politics and Politics in the closing statement, noting that some wanted to apply the TBAN to broader Politics as a whole, however the final decision was to impose the sanctions for Christianity and European secular politics. As for my recent omissions, I admitted to them and noted that they were not intended to be a statement of some kind to fight the power, prove a point, or disrupt Wikipedia... they were just my mistakes. I served out the 1 week block, and those omissions should not be viewed as some kind of an attempt to flaunt the TBAN, as some people interpret it to be. --E-960 (talk) 15:47, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• Also, Levivich, please consider what was written in the closing statement: "European politics as it related to the editor's views of secularist politics rather than European politics writ large". --E-960 (talk) 15:53, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@Wugapodes, JBW, and Girth Summit: what are your thoughts on closing this by changing the WP:EDR entry from topic banned from Christianity and European secular politics, broadly construed to topic banned from (1) Christianity, broadly construed, and (2) any edits relating to secularism, broadly construed, in European politics (language taken from Wug's August 2020 closing statement, quoted in full above)? Levivich 16:20, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Levivich - How will this proposed little change make it easier to follow the restriction and help stopping shady reports such as this one? Would you please explain? - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:45, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Please stop pinging me and asking me sea lioning questions. Levivich 16:46, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

(?! excuse me?) Well, perhaps WP: BOOMERANG should be, in fact, delivered. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:58, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Look, this is silly. Given enough bad faith you can always make connections and stretch the meanings of words to connect anything to "secular politics in Europe". Joe Biden? He's a politician (check). He went to Europe (so?). And there was that whole thing with the bishops (so related to "religion"!... who cares). Would anyone seriously argue that this TB is meant to cover Joe Biden? Come on. Just change the TB to "anything related to homosexuality and abortion" and be done with it. Straightforward and hard to game. On either side, either by skirting around the edges or by filing bad-faithed ANI requests that border on harassment. Volunteer Marek 16:49, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, GizzyCatBella - please cool it with the accusations about bad faith and shady reports. Unless either of you care to make an evidence-based case that this complaint has been raised in bad faith, you should at least try to pretend to assume good faith. I for one am prepared to believe that it is a good faith misunderstanding between the various parties on what the TBan was meant to cover. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Girth Summit (talk • contribs) 20:24, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Girth Summit - Yes, actually, after examining Levivich's comments on their talk page, I believe that they were indeed confused, which also demonstrates that the extent of the ban needs to be clarified. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Levivich - I don't personally have a view on what the wording of the TBan should be at present, but I'd be interested in hearing Wug's view on the matter. If I get time later I may read through the original thread and the close properly to make myself better informed, but you know how I don't like giving half-baked opinions... Girth Summit _(blether) 17:24, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@Girth Summit: I'd welcome fresh eyes. I gave my thoughts further up, but to clarify somewhat, my main concern is cutting off the need for further discussions like this. Including the original TBAN discussion, this will be the third time we've discussed what the scope is within the past year which is eating up human resources that could be better spent elsewhere. The goal of community sanctions is to stop disruption, not be a source of endless wikilawyering (see WP:NOTBURO) which is why "broadly construed" is included: it empowers administrators to take action on edge cases where the spirit of the restriction is violated if not the precise text. No consensus for a TBAN from European politics, writ large, doesn't mean the community thinks the editor should still edit there, and we should take the stronger interpretations (which did not reach consensus last August) into account when understanding "broadly construed" especially when we are still dealing with concerns a year later. If nothing else, the TBAN discussion last August should have put E960 on notice that their behavior in the Euopean topic area as a whole is viewed as problematic by the community and should probably not be outright avoided even if not expressly prohibited. The sanctions last month should have demonstrated that they are still being observed and that perceptions have not changed much. Yet here we are, again, spending time trying to turn obvious "it is unwise to behave like this" sentiments into ironclad "it is prohibited to behave like this". I'm not necessarily advocating for increased sanctions---I'm not even convinced the behavior reported here is particularly problematic---but from the amount of time I've spent on this the last few weeks I'm not convinced the TBAN as it stands is preventing disruption so much as spreading it to new people and venues. That needs to be fixed in whatever way we think appropriate. — Wug·a·po·des​ 18:57, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

FWIW IMO there's nothing particularly problematic (certainly not ANI-worthy) about the edits I linked to if E is not tbanned from "non-religious European politics" (which would include the Holocaust). I was concerned with the edits that led to the previous block, which included removing the collaboration and medical experiments sections from The Holocaust in their entirety because they allegedly push a POV. After the block, the edits to the Poland article were about collaboration as well. But if E's tban doesn't cover the Holocaust then it's probably just a content dispute. I would ask for some official clarity one way or another about whether this tban does or does not cover Holocaust-related content (and I bet E would like that to be clarified, too). Levivich 21:20, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Some thoughts:

1. Levivich filed this in good faith.
2. The diffs are out of the scope of the ban.
3. The ban should remain in place, as it's been less than a year and there have been multiple violations.[337][338][339][340][341][342][343]
   1. The easiest way to clarify the scope would be to limit the ban to (more or less) recent politics - from the fall of Communism onward.
4. E-960 edits in good faith, if sometimes tendentiously.
5. The sort of bad faith that's been on display in this thread is the very tip of the iceberg that's WP:APL.
6. The fact that MediaWiki is unable to stop editors from interacting with subjects from which they're banned is ridiculous. We keep arguing about trespassing instead of having the landlord install locks.

François Robere (talk) 23:37, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• Wug, JBW and Girth Summit I would perhaps like to highlight a crucial point, since I started to edit Wikipedia back in 2014, I never really got involved in editing pages related to Politics, sporadically a minor edit here or there, but these were rare changes. My primary focus from the start was on matters related to history. The one exception came when I inserted the paragraph related to the marginalization of Christians in the EU on the Religion in the European Union page, it got reverted and this in turn kicked-off a discussion that just went too far. Having said that, when the TBAN was impose it made sense to tailor it to matters related to Christianity and Secular (Secularist) Politics in Europe — in other words religious viewpoints vs. secularist viewpoints, or "culture wars" as its commonly called. However, extending it to all Politics in Europe (as some editors suggested during the initial TBAN discussion), really made no sense, and I would argue it was over-kill. Because: 1. I never really got involved in topics related to current EU/European politics 2. Even in those few instances I did they never really resulted in an editing dispute. In the end, I always felt that the editors who pushed for the wider all Politics in Europe TBAN simply did not look through my history to see that I don't really edit much about politics, and that the dispute in question was very localized, limited just to the Religion in the European Union article and one streak of edits specifically. --E-960 (talk) 06:29, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• My tuppence-worth. I've now read through the original ANI discussion, including its close. It does seem clear to me that the ban was intended to stop disruption in the topic area of perceived marginalisation of Christianity and secularism in Europe, and not a wider 'European political history' area. As such, I don't think that the edits that Levivich reported here were a breach of the wording (or the spirit) of the ban. Since we seem to be repeatedly discussing the scope, perhaps it would be worth modifying the wording slightly: I'm not looking to broaden (or narrow) the scope, just set it out more clearly, which would be in everyone's interests. Levivich's proposal above seems clearer to me, so put me down as supporting that change in wording. Girth Summit _(blether) 08:50, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
• (non-admin comment) In light of some of the comments above, I have listed the redirect "secular politics" at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 9#Secular politics (more-or-less neutrally, though with a preference). Narky Blert (talk) 17:03, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Adamant1 – incivility, aspersions, etc.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Community warning. While the community should work on being more accepting of and exhibit good faith toward neurodiverse persons, when disruption becomes chronic, it has to be remedied, eventually. WP:NOTTHERAPY is a super-offensive essay (which, if I had the stamina, I'd MfD the fuck out of), but its maxim essentially states that the non-typical can only be accommodated to a point, beyond which the strain becomes unsustainable. Adamant1, what can I say that hasn't been said already? Try to pace yourself. Assume good faith on your side, too. And check your comments for aggression. I, for example, have avoided like a million conflicts just by taking a ten minute breather, previewing my message, and then thinking better of it. Hope you take all this to heart and are able to apply it in practice, because a future complaint of this nature is almost certain to end poorly. Good luck! El_C 11:21, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

---

• Adamant1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Adamant1 was blocked for two weeks by Drmies after this ANI thread last December. This was "an old-fashioned civility block, in particular for condescending edits...and continued badgering". Drmies expressed his hope that "there won't be a next time". Regrettably, that hope has not been fulfilled. To the contrary, the incivility, aspersions, and condescending comments have continued almost uninterrupted since the block expired. Some diffs:

• Diff 1: "I find it extremely hard to believe you [Grand'mere Eugene] even care about the guidelines and aren't just cherry picking what fits your agenda when your citing such obviously horrible examples."
• Diff 2: "So, really [ClemRutter], spare us all the fake consternation about it."
• Diff 3: "No answer from either of you [Grand'mere Eugene and myself] huh? Go figure. It's odd how willing both of you are to fly off the handle at a moments notice, but then are completely unwilling to provide evidence for your spurious, nonsensical accusations. The same thing happened on the notability talk page. It was all good when you could gang up on me and go off, but then you both dodged out as soon as I asked you a few basic questions and other people who disagreed with you got involved. Lmao."
• Diff 4: "...you [Grand'mere Eugene] don't even care about or follow the things you give other crap about. It's nothing but massive projection."
• Diff 5: "I could really care less what your [Hammersoft] opinion is, because it's not based in reality and is completely non-nonsensical....Your exactly the kind of person I'm saying this project shouldn't be held hostage by."
• Diff 6: "At this point your [TheAafi] just talking in circles about nonsense to avoid the problem or answering my question."
• Diff 7: "So, I'm sticking by the fact that it [your edit] was bad faithed on your part and completely inappropriate. Both of you [TheAafi and Goldsztajn] seem to be deflecting a lot and making up a bunch of excuses for why the article should not be deleted."

To summarize: we have seven separate diffs accusing six separate editors of "bad faith[]", "deflecting", "making up a bunch of excuses", not "even car[ing] about the guidelines", "cherry picking what fits your agenda", expressing "fake consternation", making "spurious, nonsensical accusations", and holding the project hostage. And that's after a two-week civility block, an ANI thread, and an AN thread. I won't opine about what the appropriate remedy is, but one thing is clear: what we're doing is not working. Drmies said in his ANI closure "once we warned, and infractions continue, we should act on it". That's what I'm asking for here. Civility is one of our five pillars, and the "personal attacks, rudeness and disrespectful comments" evinced in the above diffs show a "chronic, intractable" behavioral pattern that has the effect of discouraging or driving away good-faith contributors. I hate having to come to ANI – I really do. But I'm convinced that it's the only way to address the serious, repeated, and systemic issues with this user. Respectfully yours, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 17:56, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Just to address this in the most succinct way possible, Extraordinary Writ and Grand'mere Eugene have for weeks repeatedly made uncalled comments about me using the words private and public in my AfD votes. There was a discussion a few weeks ago that both of them were involved in where I explained why I was using private/public to evaluate the notability of schools, yet they both continued going off about it for weeks after. Two days ago I asked Extraordinary Writ both in an AfD and on their talk page to stop making said comments because I don't find them productive, their reply was to accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist on their talk page. Which is rather rich considering their now accusing me of uncivility. When I'm the one that was repeatedly called out, even after explaining myself, and made it clear that the endless commenting wasn't productive and should stop.

As far as the specific examples, IMO they are extreme cherry picking.

Diff 1. I think I'm within my right to say to someone who has repeatedly called me out for not following the guidelines that they should stop doing so if they don't care about the guidelines themselves.

Diff 2. Clemritter had made an extremely personal comment to me before then that I was treating schools like boy bands. Then he went off about how AfDs shouldn't be personal. Which I was responding to and he agreed wasn't his best sentence. So he admitted it was his bad, we worked it out, and I see nothing wrong there.

Diff 3. Extraordinary Writ had started a discussion on the notability talk page where they and Grand'mere Eugene went off on me. Grand'mere Eugene accused me of ranting (which wasn't very civil), Extraordinary Writ went off on a side tangent about fruit, and then they both dodged out when other people came alone. Sorry, I expected people who repeatedly went off about something to be more involved in a discussion they started I guess?

Diff 4. Same as the other ones. Sorry for expecting people to be consistent and not dodge out on discussions they started as soon as people disagree with them.

Diff 5. This is neither great example of the extreme cherry picking going on here. Hammersoft was rather rude to me in the comment above mine. Including saying I was "choosing what you want to see" and that people who disagreed with them were giving them "a public flogging." So I said I didn't care what their opinion was. I see nothing wrong with disregarding such hyperbolic comments. I'm pretty sure Extraordinary Writ would have done the same thing.

Diff 6. TheAafi was being rather arguementive and dismissive toward me and a few other people in the AfD. They were clearly talking in circles. I'm not sure what Extraordinary Writ thinks it's an example of except for me responding to someone who had said such rude, dismissive things as "I don't see any merit in your questioning."

Diff 7. I find it rather odd that Extraordinary Writ is using me saying something is bad faithed and inappropriate as an example of incivility, or aspersion casting. Plenty of people, including Extraordinary Writ, call out others about being good faithed. Plus, Extraordinary Writ was perfectly fine accusing me of making up grand conspiracies and that somehow isn't incivility or an aspersion, nor was Grand'mere Eugene accusing me of ranting, but me saying someone is being bad faithed is? OK. I don't really have anything else to say about this. Sorry I so uncivilly expected The Aafī to answer my question about madrassa without them dismissing my question as meritless I guess? Sorry I told Grand'mere Eugene he shouldn't repeatedly go off about me not following the notability guidelines since he's not following them either? I mean, really what else is there to this? --Adamant1 (talk) 21:26, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't want to bludgeon this discussion, but I do want to address the accusations made against me. These evidence-free allegations (unaccompanied by diffs) against numerous well-regarded editors illustrate precisely my point: that Adamant1 casts aspersions and fails to assume good faith. And when there's a clear and long-standing behavioral issue, evidenced by a previous block for precisely the same reason, accusations of cherry-picking ring hollow. Courtesy pings to ClemRutter, Grand'mere Eugene, Hammersoft, and TheAafi in case they wish to defend themselves against these charges of "extremely personal comment[s]", "repeatedly calling [someone] out", and/or being "arguementive and dismissive". Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:40, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

What do you want a diff for? I'm more then willing to provide them. I assume people can look at your talk page to confirm the "grand conspiracy" accusation that you made toward me when I asked you not to make comments about the public/private thing in AfDs anymore. Not that I won't provide a diff for it or anything else if need be though.

• Comment

Diff 1: TheAafi said there wasn't any merit in my question and mockingly called it a "curiosity."

Diff 2: Extraordinary Writ makes the "grand conspiracy" comment in response to me asking them to stop bringing up the public/private thing in AfDs.

Diff 3: Grand'mere Eugene accuses me "opinionated ranting."

Diff 4 Grand'mere Eugene votes keep because "I really like Bearian's standards (above)" while also calling me out in the same paragraph for not following the notability guidelines.

Diff 5 Grand'mere Eugene accuses me of attacking him, Bearing, and Extraordinary Writ. When I said absolutely nothing insulting about Bearing. Let alone him or Extraordinary Writ.

Diff 6 Then he is unwilling to provide evidence that I attacked any of them when I ask for it. Instead he responds rather uncivilly by saying "Life is too short."

Diff 7 Extraordinary Writ rather uncivilly accuses me of "sullying this discussion with straw men, ad hominem attacks, and aspersions" because I apparently wrongly thought he agreed with Johnpacklambert about something.

Diff 8 ClemRutter saying "Delete the fake concern then- not my best sentence.!"

Anything else?

--Adamant1 (talk) 21:59, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I see no incivility in any of these diffs, and I believe they speak for themselves in showing the clear bad faith that Adamant1 is assuming against his fellow contributors. But regardless, this goes back to something that was said in the last ANI thread: Adamant1 seems to think that "other editors are bad, so it's okay to be bad in other ways." Accusing people of "ganging up on" you, "fly[ing] off the handle", and "giv[ing] other [people] crap" is never acceptable, even if you somehow believe yourself to be right. If you really felt that myself, ClemRutter, Grand'mere Eugene, Hammersoft, and TheAafi were all incivil, assuming bad faith and doubling down on that perceived incivility is assuredly not the right way to resolve that. This Arbcom statement of principles expresses the concept well: "It is unacceptable for an editor to routinely accuse others of misbehavior without reasonable cause. Legitimate concerns of fellow editors' conduct should be raised either directly with the editor in question, in a civil fashion, or if necessary on an appropriate noticeboard or dispute-resolution page. Although broad leeway is granted to allow editors to express themselves in their interactions with one another, particularly in dispute resolution, a consistent pattern of making objectively unsupported or exaggerated claims of misconduct can necessitate sanctions or restrictions even if the editor subjectively believes that they are true." As the diffs I cited above show, Adamant1 has repeatedly deviated from that requirement. I think I've made myself crystal-clear, so, in the spirit of WP:BLUDGEON, I don't intend to respond further unless specifically asked to do so. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I totally agree with that guideline. How exactly did either you or Grand'mere Eugene follow it by repeatedly calling me out in AfDs about the public/private thing though? Where did either of you directly raise your concern about it with me? I don't see a discussion on my talk page about it by either of you. I wasn't the one repeatedly bringing it up in "votes" either. You were. How is that directly raising concern with the person in a civil manor?

There's really zero evidence that either of you attempted to work it out personally with me outside of just repeatedly making comments about it, telling me what to do on the Notability Guideline talk page, and then bouncing afterwards so you could open this. Let alone did either of you do any of that in a direct, civil manor. It's not on me to work out your personal problems. Nor was it on me to continue trying to resolve the issue with you after you called me a conspiracy theorist and Grand'mere Eugene said there wasn't enough time in the day to discuss it. Seriously, you can't just blow off a problem that's had multiple discussions you decided not to participate in or where actively hostile toward and then cry foul about the other side not raising it with you.

Both you and Grand'mere Eugene keep going off me about me not following the guidelines when your the ones that have been completely ignoring them. I followed them when I directly asked on your talk page not to bring up the private/public thing again. Seriously, your sitting here telling me I should have raised this directly with the editor in question when that's exactly what I did. You just blew it off and then reported me for doing exactly what your now saying I should have done LMAO. If that's not a clear example of how ridiculous this is, I don't know what is. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:06, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

You should both step back and let others comment. 131.107.1.226 (talk) 00:09, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

After seven years' editing here, this is my first encounter with ANI. I'm retired from a 30-year career teaching university students literature and writing courses. I had no tolerance for incivility in my classroom. But editors here sometimes react with uncivil responses.

Adamant1 responds with intensity, and in the instances cited by Extraordinary Writ, it's been disruptive. I did ask him to refrain, but he doesn't seem to have the emotional filters to be civil and argue the merits of his interpretations without accompanying personal insults. Conversations among editors go sideways because people get distracted by his walls of text that do not reason effectively or succinctly. Regrettably, here we are. Respectfully, Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 00:19, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Last time I checked there's no limit on the amount of text someone can have in a message. Still, I apologize if I write overly long messages sometimes, but there's not a clear line between to much text and enough to make the point. Plus, I'm a little on the OCD/ADHD/Autistic side of the spectrum. Which tends to get exacerbated when I'm being forced to respond to multiple people and messages at the same time. Like here and on the notability talk page. I likely wouldn't write long texts if it was just one person making one point at a time though. That said, IMO it would be more productive to stick to arguing the merits (or lack thereof) of the things that are being said though instead of dismissing people's opinions based on some arbitrary, imagined character limit that they supposedly went over.

JBL wrote a pretty long message on the Notability talk page. So did you. I still read over and considered both your messages though. I didn't just blow off what you said because of how long the message was. I assume people can show me the same courtesy. I haven't seen you calling JBL or anyone else, out over message length either. So it just comes off like a weird, personal, and specifically dismissive thing to take issue with. Especially because you never asked me to shorten my messages. You just called them "opinionated ranting." I would have been more then willing to chop them down if you had of approached it in a good faithed, civil way though. Instead of insulting me. I can also almost guarantee that if I had just ignored the discussions all together (like both of you did) that we would still be here but just be complaining about me not discussing things. I seriously doubt there was any amount of civility or discussion (outside of something along the lines of purely fawning supplication) that wouldn't have led to me being reported by Extraordinary Writ. --Adamant1 (talk) 00:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

@Adamant1: Do you really mean me? --JBL (talk) 17:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)^{[Confused editor?]}

Sorry, no. I meant JohnPatrickLambert. I didn't know there was an actual JBL. I'd probably be confused by that also lol. --Adamant1 (talk) 18:18, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

WP:BATTLEGROUND --Hammersoft (talk) 00:53, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - I concur with the other users that User:Adamant1 is not complying with the four pillar of Wikipedia. The question is whether they are an editor who is a net negative to the project, and should be banned, or whether they are capable of moderating and improving their discussion style, in which case they should, nonetheless, be given a block for at least three weeks, because they haven't learned after the most recent block. My opinion is that we should assume good faith, which means that they should be given a block of three weeks for continued incivility. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:04, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

What incivility exactly and what about the blatant incivility of the other people involved in this that I provided diffs for? Writing long winded messages isn't against the guidelines. Nor is asking people to stop referencing me in their keep votes or expecting people to be consistent about things. There's zero evidence I've done anything else that is worthy of being blocked for. Which is why neither of them were willing to provide evidence of anything they accused me of when I asked for it. Plus, they repeatedly brought me up and disparaged me after I asked them multiple times to stop. What's civil about that?

BTW, it's also pretty ironic that Extraordinary Writ had a list of my comments going back at least three that they were waiting to use against me at the right moment but then when I asked him to leave me alone on his talk page he said I was making up conspiracies. No way they have them to pull out immediately when they were needed unless there was some serious browsing of my edit history and past conversations going on before hand. How exactly is that OK, civil, or good faithed behavior that follows the guidelines? --Adamant1 (talk) 01:11, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Adamant1 - Read First Law of Holes. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:09, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Hhhhmm, sure. I seem to remember you posting the exact same thing in another ANI complaint that hasn't been resolved yet any more then this one has. While I'm usually all for reading badly sourced stubs about cliché philosophical aphorisms, shouldn't you at least wait until there's clearly a hole being dug before you tell people to read the article? Otherwise, it kinds of defeats the purpose. How much impact or meaning is that going to have if this closes with me not being banned? Probably none. Whereas, if you really wanted to make a point the way to do it would have been to wait until this was closed and then post it on my talk page if I get banned. Wham..Then I would have been like "totally good adage Robert McClenon. If only I had of known about it sooner..Face palm." From like Mars, because that's literally the only place where no one knows what digging a hole for themselves is. See how much better that would be? Totally would have showed me. From earth. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:26, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Adamant1, I mean this with all due respect and in complete good faith: the best thing you could do to advance your own interests is to ignore this thread completely from here on out. Just a bit of advice. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 05:38, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I never interacted with the user outside the JTR AfD. Here they accused me saying I find it rather uncouth that TheAafi edited the term madrassa out of the article. It seems a lot like whitewashing in order to side step the discussion about if they are inherently notable or not. Here they again accused me something that I never did. I asked them where I changed or removed the word madrasa, and they said I didn't say you changed the word madrasa to seminary. I said you deleted it, like six times. (See this). I even explained to them the edit in the AfD that no sources supported the sentence Mufti Rasheed Ahmad Ludhianvi brought this madrassa to its peak and at the time of his death made Mufti Abdul Rahim the superintendent of the madrassa and hence it was removed in this. To this they kept being bad-faith in the AfD. At another instance, they say So, I'm sticking by the fact that it was bad faithed on your part and completely inappropriate. Both of you seem to be deflecting a lot and making up a bunch of excuses for why the article should not be deleted. I politely described my edit, and they kept on saying that Especially since it was being discussed here when you deleted it. I'm hard pressed to come up with a valid reason for you deleting the word considering the context that you deleted it under, and all you've done is strawman me and make excuses about it. Here again I replied them that none of the sources mentioned the role of Mufti Rashid (the only sentence that contained the word madrasa). I did say them, when they asked, it could've been rephrased, that, How do we rephrase something that sources don't support? like Mufti Rashid did so and so (See this). Now he was again bad-faith and said At this point your just talking in circles about nonsense to avoid the problem or answering my question. This was what I replied with that there was no merit in his questioning, because things were already answered earlier. (See this). I rest my case. Thanks. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 06:20, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

In no way were you polite to me in that AfD. That said, I have zero issue with you. Also, I probably could have handled your bad attitude and obfuscation about it better at the time. I know AfDs can get heated sometimes and I take full responsibility for my side of that. Even if your unwilling to take responsibility for yours. So hopefully no harm, no foul. I know there's at least no hurt feelings on my side of things for how ridiculously you acted or your unwillingness to acknowledge it.

BTW, if TheAafi had a problem with me this whole time over how I treated them in the AfD they never said so or discussed it with me, when they were perfectly free to. More then likely I would have apologized for my side of things. Like I just did. It's rather odd that Extraordinary Writ is brining up a 3 month old AfD discussions that no one has had a problem with since then as part of a run around point about my current behavior. Especially considering how they quoted the guidelines that said issues should be resolved directly between the people that are having the problem.

How exactly is Extraordinary Writ following that guideline or respecting people working things out directly by pinging TheAafi three months later to go off here over something he never brought up to me at the time or since then? Same goes for Hammersoft and Robert McClenon. If either of them had (or has) an issue with me, great. Neither one of them ever contacted me about it if they did. So why should their issue with me suddenly be used as fodder now to dog pile me if people are supposed to contact someone directly at the time when there's an issue? --Adamant1 (talk) 07:17, 9 July 2021 (UTC) Adamant1 (talk) 06:30, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I don't see the problem with Adamant1 after examining the diffs. Afd is an area where there is always been a strong and vigourous, cut and thrust, back and forth. It is worth noting that the editor does have an 85.6% accuracy rating on Afd. I don't see anything here that I have not seem dozens to hundreds of times before. scope_creep^Talk 08:32, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
  • scope_creep, I'm glad the user has such a high accuracy rating, but it's irrelevant. I just looked over Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jamia Tur Rasheed, Karachi, and Adamant is being exceedingly rude there. If I find more of that in the course of the day I will place a civility block. And if you tell me that you see that kind of commentary all the time, I'd appreciate it if you reported it because it is unacceptable. Drmies (talk) 13:31, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

@Drmies: I agree that I was rather rude there. I should have handled it better. I guess apologizing and taking responsibility for it doesn't matter though huh? Nor does the context of how I was being treated matter either apparently. Good to know. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:28, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Indef and move on The behavior presented here is identical to the behavior that got Adamant1 blocked before: insults, passive-aggressive attacks, casual casting of aspersions, questioning why they should provide diffs to back up claims, twisting the words of other editors, excessive bludgeoning, and rampant whataboutism whenever they are confronted with their own misbehavior. Robert McClenon suggested that we should ask whether they are an editor who is a net negative to the project. Adamant1 almost exclusively confines their Wikipedia participation to AfD and the occasional policy "discussion", so we're not talking about someone who also helps out with content contribution, or who also does copyediting, or engages in anti-vandalism work, etc. Is having an additional vote in school-related AfD discussions worth ignoring a constant generator of toxicity?

Most importantly, though, everyone should take a closer look, in its entirety, at the incident where Adamant1 decided to be nasty to Hammersoft in the RfC about the desysop policy, as well as Adamant1's follow-up when an uninvolved editor opined that perhaps he should consider striking part of what he said: I try not to edit posts to make them more moderate after the fact, because it comes off as back peddling, self censoring Etc. Etc., or I probably would have.[344]

This interaction with Hammersoft alone is enough for a three-week block; combined with everything else, an indef is merited. The notion that striking rude comments would somehow be perceived as backpedaling on a position sums up the battleground mentality and toxic attitude that is fundamentally incompatible with the collaborative and collegial approach that is required for Wikipedia. Enough is enough, and this constant generation of toxicity from someone who LMAO when they upset/insult another editor needs to be ended. Grandpallama (talk) 14:21, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose It is very easy to call for indef, when there is no cost to yourself. Another decent editor gone from Wikipedia and without sounding sarcastic, we have a vast queue of other editors waiting to come on, to work at the same rate as the original group. The reason I think Adamant1 gets angry, is because the editor is extremely frustrated at the state of play on Afd and the core problem with it, which is, its completly broken. The article in question at Jamia Tur Rasheed, Karachi should have been deleted, as there is 10s of thousands of seminaries in the Islamic world. They are virtually identical, teaching a slightly different a version of the Islamic word, but mostly identical. But for some reason it is now almost impossible to delete these types of articles, even those where the notability policy is clear on it. At the beginning of the week, I was reading an article on paid editor by a paid editing crowd. In the article they described a process of using long term socks to frustrate the Afd discussion and described how it could be subverted. That is likely the reason he is rude. scope_creep^Talk 14:40, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) scope_creep, that problem notwithstanding, it's usually not that difficult to tell who is a veteran editor in good standing. Most respondents in this thread reflect my own experience with Adamant1, which is a somewhat problematic one. I think, at the very least, there should be a commitment on their part to seriously cut back on the bludgeoning and the aggression. El_C 15:07, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

@El C: If you don't mind me asking since it's been on my mind for a while now, what qualify someone as a "veteran editor in good standing"? Because it seems like a subjective form of purity testing more then anything else. Personally, I rather side with whoever makes the more sound, evidence based arguement then go with whoever was lucky enough to sign up an account first. I think that's one of the reasons why there's so much obviously false nonsense being tossed around in this discussion, because long-term members tend to just be sided with no matter what they say. As long they toss some orthodoxy in between the junk (that they aren't going be called for "because long term member") to give their comment a veneer of legitimacy. How is that a good or fair way to decide these types of issues? Adamant1 (talk) 21:28, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Adamant1, I'd basically call every participant in this very thread a veteran editor in good standing. But my point was limited to and should be read in the context of what scope_creep had said regarding SPAs who purposefully hide their real single-purpose agenda through long-term subterfuge. El_C 21:39, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

OK. That makes sense. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:36, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment; I've been pinged into this discussion a number of times now for Adamant1's comments towards me at the desysop RfC. I made a comment above where I simply said "WP:BATTLEGROUND". Since I've been pinged again, I think I need to expound on that. From my chair, Adamant1's approach towards me in the RfC was quite hostile. One can participate in a discussion and feel quite strongly about the topic without becoming hostile. I don't believe that Adamant1 does that. Adamant1 needs to take onboard this passage from WP:NPA; "Comment on content, not on the contributor." I don't know that we are at the point of a site ban. However, I've seen this type of behavior in other editors. Invariably, it never improves. I don't think Adamant1 is guilty by simply having the same style as these other editors. But, I do predict we'll be back here again. On my principles #4, I note that disengagement is a powerful tool. I chose to disengage from Adamant1 because of their behavior, and have avoided reading or commenting on anything they've said since. In short, it's ok to be adamant. It's not ok to be adamhostile. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:04, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Apologies if my adding to the pings got annoying, but since much of my post focused on your treatment, I wanted to be sure you had a chance to address it if you felt I didn't represent something correctly. You write here that I don't know that we are at the point of a site ban, and if we were just talking about someone who exhibits hostility but (even if only occasionally) self-corrects when it is pointed out, I might feel the same way. But the explicit declarations that all the problems are caused by other editors and the notion that moderating their own behavior equates to some sort of surrender is what pushes me to the siteban. That attitude is diametrically opposed to how this site is supposed to operate, and we shouldn't shy away from taking appropriate measures when it's apparent they are needed. Grandpallama (talk) 15:57, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

You're not being annoying, and you didn't represent the treatment I received incorrectly. I wanted to expound on my position since it seems how I was treated was becoming a bit more central to the discussion, that's all. For the other points, I do think that WP:BATTLEGROUND applies. We are going to be back here again, unfortunately. Still, I don't know that we should be indefing based on crystal balling the future. I'll comment below on this a bit more. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Hammersoft: "In short, it's ok to be adamant. It's not ok to be adamhostile." Damn, that's good [345]. --Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:34, 9 July 2021 (UTC)]

Damn, you so owned me. Totally, totally, owned. Next you'll probably be asking me where Eveant is at or something similar. In the meantime, I'm to reframe from makin the obvious jokes that I could about Hammersoft's user name if I felt like stooping to such a childish level. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:01, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Indef and move on - per Grandpallama. The word that describes adamant's behavior towards other editors in the diffs presented is "abusive," and we shouldn't tolerate it. We are way too tolerant of editors who are routinely and unapologetically uncivil. We give them chance after chance after chance. It's how we develop a toxic environment. It holds back recruitment and the project as a whole. Levivich 15:50, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Well put. Grandpallama (talk) 15:58, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment @Grandpallama: I was criticized by multiple people before for editing my comments, because they thought I was trying to hide something by doing so. Which is why I decided not to edit my comment in the instance your referenced. Clearly I'm going to be criticized and called out for my behavior no matter what, if it's appropriate or not. Your really damned if you do and damned if don't on here.

Also, there's nothing wrong with someone editing a specific area of Wikipedia that their interested in. I'm interested in referencing, because it's somethin I know a lot about from my schooling, and therefore AfDs. There's no guideline that says people can't focus on their area of interest and it doesn't mean I don't make worthy contributions to Wikipedia in the meantime. Plenty of people do the same thing. I find it kind of ridiculous and slightly insulting that your so willing to act like me or anyone else who focuses on a specific area have little value to the project as editors because of it. Those kinds of low-level, ultimately non-issue, things seems to be all this is based on. --Adamant1 (talk) 16:18, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, there's nothing wrong with someone editing a specific area of Wikipedia that their interested in. My comment didn't suggest that there is any problem with that; I said that when we weigh whether you are a net negative to the project, we should be considering whether the specific contributions you bring outweigh the disruption that you also bring. This is a pretty good example of the way in which you twist and recast what editors have said. Grandpallama (talk) 16:23, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

And personally I don't think it weighs out or is even worth considering in blocking someone or not. In no way is my opinion that it isn't twisting and recasting what editors have said. It's just having an opinion about this and if I think the things being brought up are worth me being blocked over. Last time I checked I can do that. You treating me otherwise is a good example of how little good faith I'm being afforded here. --Adamant1 (talk) 16:35, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• One more thing, I take major issue with @Levivich: saying I'm "routinely and unapologetically uncivil." I've been more then willing to admit to my shortcomings and apologize when I've been in the wrong. I apologized for being overly sarcastic when I was blocked last time and I've apologized here for being a little overboard in the AfD discussion with TheAfi. I've also said I have a disability that effects my ability to communicate effectively when I'm forced to respond to multiple people and topics at once. Which is where most of the problem comes from. It's something I have and will continue to work on though. In the meantime, I'm more then willing to admit to my short comings at this and take responsibility for them. So I'd appreciate it if you either struck out your comment or at least admitted that it is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamant1 (talk • contribs)

Are you referring to this: Last time I checked there's no limit on the amount of text someone can have in a message. Still, I apologize if I write overly long messages sometimes, but there's not a clear line between to much text and enough to make the point. Plus, I'm a little on the OCD/ADHD/Autistic side of the spectrum. Which tends to get exacerbated when I'm being forced to respond to multiple people and messages at the same time.? That's not an apology. Also, being a little on the OCD/ADHD/Autistic side of the spectrum is not a disability or even a thing. OCD, ADHD, and Austism aren't on the same spectrum, they're different things. Levivich 16:40, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

No. I'm refering my response to TheAfi I have zero issue with you. Also, I probably could have handled your bad attitude and obfuscation about it better at the time. I know AfDs can get heated sometimes and I take full responsibility for my side of that. Also, the last time I checked people can multiple disabilities at the sometime. For instance, my dad had schizophrenia, depression, and major anxiety for most of his life. They aren't mutually exclusive. Also, technically I have tourette's syndrome. Which has "autism-like symptoms" and 60% of TS sufferers have been reported to have OCD symptoms. True that's not autism or OCD per say, but I was trying to be brief/vague about it for the sake of brevity and my privacy. --Adamant1 (talk) 16:50, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Now you're just trolling. Tourette's, a tic disorder, isn't causing you to be uncivil via text, and neither are OCD, ADHD, or autism (which are not related other than that they're all widely misdiagnosed and sometimes confused with each other but only by people who aren't educated about them). Levivich 16:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you translated that my disability makes it hard for me to respond to multiple people and topics at the same time to "It's causing me to be uncivil via text", but alright. As far as your other thing goes, do a Google search. I didn't pull that 60% statistic out of my ass. If anything your the one that's trolling by acting like you know more about a disability then the person who actually has the disability does. I always expect a certain amount of ignorance from people about TS when I bring it up, but never on that level. --Adamant1 (talk) 17:08, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I see a lot of excuses here, but I am still waiting for an unconditional "sorry, I'll do better." Just a thought from an outsider. Cheers all, and happy Friday. Dumuzid (talk) 17:02, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

"sorry, I'll do better." --Adamant1 (talk) 17:08, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Adamant1, I feel it is my duty to inform you that putting quotation marks around that statement considerably reduces its impact.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:37, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Originally I cut and pasted it on my phone and it was just easier to copy the whole thing and post it then edit it mid way. Are you seriously going to be that sensitive and nitpicky? Jesus. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:32, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Are you seriously going to be that sensitive and nitpicky? Jesus. The irony of responding in this manner after just supposedly offering up a genuine apology and promise to be better is palpable. Grandpallama (talk) 23:02, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I guess I just wrongly assumed that people would treat me with a certain level of good faith, that if I apologized I meant it and that it was genuine. No matter how it was written. My bad for making the assumption. I totally agree with the comment by Reyk about the supercilious, baiting tone of these comments. Can I seriously not write one response where it's taken in good faith, not treated with a superior tone by the other person, or somehow used against me as bait? For all the talk of civility and assuming good faith there's a serious lack of either being shown toward me. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:36, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Adamant1, you are probably best off disengaging entirely. If indeed someone is trying to bait you, any response from you is a victory for them. Just make your points as though you're addressing a larger audience and not responding to heckling. Much more effective. Reyk _YO! 09:33, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I haven't been particularly impressed with Adamant1's behaviour in this thread (though their response to my own comment seems fine), but with respect to them affirming with that sorry, I'll do better quote... from a perspective that is inclusive of non-neurotypical individuals, I feel like that's actually alright. I don't think there's a reason to ABF that it was done to get a rise out of people. Still, Adamant1, you should realize that responding by copying that quote does read weird — like an affirmation which is half-hearted (couldn't be bothered) or simply isn't genuine. HTH! El_C 09:46, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

@Reyk: When I first created my account an admin said people can get blocked for not participating in discussions about them. So I try to respond to things that are directly related to me. Especially if I'm pinged. That said, responding to every one who tried to bait me in this conversation clearly wasn't effective. So sticking to the broader points and not responding hecklers is duly noted. @El C: I haven't been particularly impressed with most of the discussion. I appreciate the more level fair, balanced, and advice giving approaches that were taken by you, Reyk, and a few other people though. It does help. In retrospect I can see how directly quoting the apology could seem half hearted. I was pretty wore down by all the baiting at that point and wasn't putting as much thought into as I could have. Anyway, I'm off to (hopefully) less toxic things. Thanks for the feedback from both of you. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:08, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• Weak oppose- The incivility obviously isn't ideal, but I don't think it rises to a level requiring a permaban. I also note that many of the comments he's responding to have a supercilious, baiting tone that I do not care to reward. Reyk _YO! 17:01, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

  Can you point to any comments that have a supercilious, baiting tone? Pointing out, with evidence, that someone is wrong is neither supercilious nor baiting. Maybe you should just do what everyone else did over a decade ago and start evaluating issues on the evidence rather than through the lens of the childish "deletionism/inclusionism" spectrum. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• Further comment I think it painfully obvious at this point that Adamant1 sees nothing wrong in their behavior. Nevertheless, quite a number of people in this thread have found fault with their behavior. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Adamant1's behavior, including the subject themselves, Adamant1 has to be able to see that continuing as they have before is not an option. This thread will eventually close. If a new thread begins a few months from now regarding Adamant1's behavior again, this thread will be referenced. If Adamant1 is not able to show improvement in their behavior from this thread forward to that one, it will almost certainly result in a site ban. This is especially likely given that there's been no real improvement since their prior block for the behavior. The choice is up to them. A person can be right about everything (as Adamant1 seems to suggest in this thread) and still be wrong. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:50, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Seriously, have you even read the discussion? I apologized and said I will work on my behavior multiple times. Including right above your message. Why the hell would I do either of those tings if I don't see anything wrong with how I acted or think that I'm right about everything? The amount of gas lighting going on in this discussion is completely nuts. --Adamant1 (talk) 18:12, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

It is perhaps ironic that in the same passage you claim you're going to do better you also accuse me of gas lighting. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:53, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Your not the only person I've talked to and I meant the discussion overall. I don't what else to call people like Levivich telling me I don't know the symptoms of my own disability other then gas lighting. It sure doesn't serve any purpose except to try and bait me into arguing more. Much like your comments. At least you didn't make fun of my user name this time. So, progress can be made. Anyway, have a good weekend. I'm off to better, less toxic or pointless things. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• Warn, but oppose any block/ban Adamant1 needs to be reminded to focus on commenting about arguments at AfD, and not about people. They may need to be "encouraged" or "admonished" or even "warned" along those lines as well. The calls for a block look like the same old inclusionist/deletionist argument trying to knock people out of the debate. Some of the diffs are months old, and some are making valid arguments in a needlessly personal way. I don't see enough for a block, but if the behavior gets worse that may be a possibility the next time this shows up at ANI. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 23:09, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree that some of the diffs were needlessly personal. I'll work on not being so needlessly personal in the future. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:49, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• • I do want to explicitly note that these diffs do not seem as bad as the ones that led to a block in December, though they are obviously not good. For editors looking for some sanction, I suggest (but do not endorse) a "maximum 1 edit per AfD" restriction; there are concerns about edits elsewhere but that may address the root of the problem. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 23:15, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
    • Some of Adamant1's comments here do not give me confidence they will improve; hopefully they do not talk their way into an indef. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 21:58, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

There's been a lot of rather bad faithed baiting going that after a good nights sleep, reflection, and none baiting feedback I realize now should have just been ignored or at least so actively fed into. I'm definitely going to do less bait taking going forward. Hopefully that eases your mind. Adamant1 (talk) 22:32, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment A year has passed since my encounter. I find myself wondering if there has been any change. Kyteto (talk) 23:36, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
• I'm tempted to close this, but I'll leave that for someone else since I gotta run--it's cocktail time. I don't see a consensus for an indef-block, but it's pretty close. I see some signs from Adamant that they'll improve, and I'm sort of holding on to that, hoping they will make it true. What I'd propose is what some admins used to call a final civility warning or something like that--I think one of our colleagues had a set of guidelines for that? Drmies (talk) 21:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Enjoy your cocktail. I'm fine with something along the lines of a civility warning. I agree I could have been more civil. Although it's just a request, I'd appreciate it if the closing admin also gave @Levivich: a civility warning for maligning me for trolling when I told them what the symptoms of my disability are. While I'm cognizant that they are uncomfortable with people citing their mental health conditions, accusing someone of trolling as a way to deal with the discomfort is particularly bad faithed and toxic. I'd like to think people (including me) can be free on this platform to express their cognitive shortcomings without such accusations being lobbied at them for doing so. Thank you. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:37, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. But no, I am not going to do anything of that sort--in the comment they responded to, you said "I probably could have handled your bad attitude and obfuscation about it better at the time." (That's a kind of non-apology apology, of course.) This thread seems to underscore that every time you offer something that suggests good faith, you have to slip in a bitter pill of bad faith at the same time. Drmies (talk) 14:08, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

So it's fine that he be belittled me about a disability because I half apologized to someone else before that? If so, that seems like an odd take. Would you be as dismissive of warning Levivich if he had of said a racial slur? I'm sure you wouldn't be. Also, I'm pretty sure I'd be roundly and quickly condemned by everywhere here (and rightly so) if I had of told another user with cerebral palsy that they didn't know crap about cerebral palsy, because it would be wrong. No matter what they said to me before that. But it's cool that Levivich did the same thing to me, because I said some things beforehand....alright. --Adamant1 (talk) 16:02, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Drmies, I got gin and I got beer. Mix? What mix? El_C 03:12, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose indef/block(any form) — This is forlorn for me as two third of the parties this thread is centralized on, are all good friends of mine, I have worked with and still work with Adamant1 & Extraordinary Writ at AFD's. I have also extensively worked with TheAafi in anti spam/upe so I’m very much objective about this, having observed what led to this what I can see on the part of Adamant1 is sincere passion for the encyclopedia and when frustrated they have a propensity to lash out, the best of us, including Admins have exhibited similar behavior. An indef is counter productive, literally as Adamant1 does good work, could they tone down the invectives? sure they can, a block of any sort is moot and counter intuitive because I do not see any active disruption, thus, blocking now wouldn’t be preventative at this juncture, it basically would come off as punitive. On behalf of Adamant1, I want to apologize to Extraordinary Writ, TheAafi, Hammersoft and all other parties who are irate by the comments made by Adamant1, especially to Extraordinary Writ, please don’t be offended. Throwing away the baby and the bath water isn’t ever a good idea. That Adamant1 is a net positive isn’t deniable. I really hope all this can be resolved amicably without any harsh verdict on any parties involved. Drmies, El_C, please I beg of you both not to pass any harsh judgements. Celestina007 (talk) 14:13, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• Celestina007, without addressing your plea at this stage, that just isn't how ANI complaints work. We can't call possible disruption from the subject of such a complaint Stale, even if the purported disruption gets suspended during the discussion (which I'm not sure has been the case here, anyway). This in contradistinction to the latest reported disruption itself being highly-stale in nature — then in most cases it can be summarily dismissed on that basis. El_C 14:40, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

@El_C, no doubt you are correct, I do however want to see all parties involved come out fine and infact work together. I wish this was settled amicably between them and not having to rise to the level where an ani was evoked. I’m certain Adamant1 has learnt and moving forward would interact with colleagues here with more civility. Celestina007 (talk) 14:52, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose any blocks/ban The comments made by Adamant1 are uncivil, but trivial compared to some of the stuff I've seen in other ANI cases over the years. It's not enough to warrant a block, especially to an editor who is net positive. Jerm (talk) 14:43, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

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Tspooky: Legal threats and COI

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• Tspooky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user is (or is persuasively imitating) Anthony Shaffer, the subject of Anthony Shaffer (intelligence officer) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). This edit is likely Tspooky's most clear statement that they are Shaffer. I have been in a content and conduct dispute with them at the article, its talk page, my user talk, and his user talk. I am mainly posting due to a recent legal threat he made against me: "I will next been seeking legal advice for your continued posting of false and malicious information...". Prior to that there were issues of COI editing, most recently this edit, which is still live as of this posting. Working with them has been challenging. For context, the article in question is not our best work BLP-wise, but Tspooky's wholesale rewrite is not the change it needs.

Feel free to move this over to WP:COIN if it would be more appropriate there. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 06:44, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

This is clearly an attempt to influence a content dispute with intimidation, meant to have a chilling effect. This is contrary to neutrality and consensus. I have blocked User:Tspooky accordingly. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 07:24, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:CRP violation needs to be reverted

Can an uninvolved editor please undo this WP:CRP violation by an IP? Thank you. Idealigic (talk) 09:20, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Idealigic, as I noted at the recently-archived thread about this, nobody wants to touch this, so you might want to consider an arbitration request. El_C 13:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh, it looks like I actually semi'd the MEK page on July 6 till the 20th (hello, memory!). Anyway, this possible violation from that IP (dated June 25) is at this point Stale. El_C 10:35, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Ireadbooks12 not adding sources

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Ireadbooks12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a talkpage full of warnings for addition of unsourced information (most are under User talk:Ireadbooks12#July 2021. In addition, they have created multiple unsourced articles: e.g. Alica Schmidt (Special:Diff/1032071202), Aiden Jackson Special:Diff/1030175015, Draft:2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix tyre controversy (was created in article space, but now moved to draftspace, Special:Diff/1031901025 ​and Shilla (genre) only has one, possibly unreliable source. They have never acknowledged or responded to any of the messages on their talkpage, and so are not demonstrating competency to edit with verifiability and collaboration. I feel like a block is therefore in order, as they are being a time sink on other users, and their edits/creations are not beneficial as they nearly all fails WP:VERIFY. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:02, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

And they're still doing it: Special:Diff/1032736421, Special:Diff/1032756055. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:46, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Krishnarthiindia aka Ansuman Bhagat

• Krishnarthiindia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have had many concerns about this editor since they joined about a month ago. They continue to attempt to push through the autobiography Draft:Ansuman Bhagat. Please note that Ansuman Bhagat is salted and has been for years. Every article that they create is promotional and about someone of highly questionable notability. They have failed to respond to any request to declare their quite obvious COI/UPE on their talk page. Tanuj Patel is a prime example of another highly inappropriate article cited entirely to press releases. They also keep adding copyrighted images to pages diff, diff and diff and also occasional removal of AfD/COI notices diff and diff. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:22, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Paid editing from User:Sathish Kathiravan and socks

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• Sathish Kathiravan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

I'm requesting to investigate whether the edits from all the accounts related would be considered paid editing. The accounts edit the pages related to Tamil movies and Tamil actors/actresses. Several edits from the accounts are reverted citing OR, unsourced, BLP or non-notable/un-encyclopaedic value. -- DaxServer (talk) 13:31, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• DaxServer, ANI isn't a venue for investigating, you haven’t provided relevant diffs that are required of you if you actually want to make a case. I would have told you to visit WP:COIN but now you are here, as aforementioned can you show diffs? Secondly if you suspect sock or meat puppetry then WP:SPI is what you may be looking for, if you have private cogent information that shows UPE then sending a mail to @paid-en-wp@wikipedia.org, is the best option especially if the information has the potential to ”OUT” the relevant parties involved. Celestina007 (talk) 14:31, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Kuatrero's unilateral page moves. Moving the articles back to their original names until the dispute is settled

User Kuatrero has now for some days been attempting to delete, merge or move the pages Prisoners of the Revolt and Anti-Barricade Law. He has done so unilaterally and without consensus or even discussing it. I would like to ask for the original names to be restored and the pages to be protected from Kuatrero's unilateral moves until a deletion, removal or whatever Kuatrero may be proposing is agreed upon by regular Wikipedia procedures. I also take note that Kuatrero is apparently not a new user and has migrated here from Spanish Wikipedia so he/she should by now be familiar with the rules. I am open to discuss changes but not to accept Kuatrero's behaviour and bickering. I have warned Kuatrero trice and he apparently does not like it and accuses me of "wikihounding" him.[346] Dentren | ^Talk 15:36, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Dentren I've restored Prisoners of the Revolt. Jerm (talk) 16:22, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Jerm The name Dentren is promoting is non neutral and only used by some groups. Wikipedia needs to use a neutral title, which Prisoners of the protests is. I don't intend to engage in an edit war, however Dentren's actions seem like wikihounding. I urge them to stop harassing me and start contributing with neutral infos. Kind regards Kuatrero (talk) 16:56, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Legal threat @ Talk:Ron Jeremy

A (likely) legal threat (diff) has been issued on page Talk:Ron Jeremy. Could an admin please review? Melmann 16:42, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

It's the same as User talk:2600:1700:DDB0:2700:49AF:943A:3ED6:F80B. Blocking. 331dot (talk) 16:49, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Autonomous agent 5's problems

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Autonomous agent 5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Aa5 began editing in late April of this year and has shown themself to be problematic from the beginning. They also do tasks that a new user would not normally do, e.g., move pages. Early on, they also started creating new pages, sometimes immediately in draft form, and other times in mainspace, but other editors would move them to draft space.

Aa5 first came to my attention because of a report they filed at WP:AN3, which provoked this painful discussion at User talk:Autonomous agent 5#Warnings. As you can see, the user is obsessed with the declined report at AN3 involving Chainlink (blockchain). Cryptocurrency articles are a focus of this editor; see, e.g., Draft:Altcoins/1. I will now list some of the problems of the user, for which I recommend an indefinite block for WP:NOTHERE, failure to collatorate, inability to communicate clearly, and incompetence:

• Aa5 speaks of themself in the third person, i.e., "this user has done nothing wrong", making it very difficult to follow what they are saying because they also often refer to other users as "the user" or "this user".
• If there is a way to say something in one sentence, Aa5 says it in a very long paragraph that is often incomprehensible (I used the word "gibberish"). See this paragraph on their Talk page.
• They have a battleground mentality. Besides edit-warring on the Chainlink article, they have also edit-warred on other articles, e.g., Broccoli, Radiation.
• They add material to articles that is odd and rather tangential, e.g., these many edits to Night, which is should really revert but have not (part of the problem is the user makes many, many edits, some of which may be okay, making it hard to surgically remove the bad ones). My favorite addition by the user to this article is a subsection on Human that says "It is healthy for men to have a number of penile erections during the night", citing to a Men's health website.
• When Aa5 uses edit summaries, they are often odd (big surprise) and uninformative, "obvs.", "arc.". By contrast, many are unnecessarily verbose, e.g., "removed {{advert}} WP:WTRMT - this editor did not perceive WP:WNTRMT as applicable because 21:37, 6 July 2021 solved the problem of "UNESCO selected Chainlink" is promotional @ "selected", not shown at source, & "UNESCO" is not the case because is an org. not member(s) of the org. q.v. "UNESCO does not endorse..." (foot of source-page); q.v 19:31, 6 July 2021‎, 18:56, 6 July 2021".

I don't make these kinds of reports very often as I find them tiring, so the above is not an exhaustive list of the user's problems; nor do I use diffs in every instance. I can provide additional diffs if needed, though.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:41, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• I concur. Added a pile of promotional, press-release and non-RS content to Chainlink (blockchain), insisted on edit-warring it back in, including bizarre claims such as "in the cyberspace dimension" in the intro. I looked at their talk page and their other edits, and it's a pattern in every interaction they have and most articles they edit. Their writing style is long, rambling, incomprehensible gibberish that fails to state a claim. It's not clear if this is performance art or something they just can't stop themselves from doing. In any case, the horse has been led to water repeatedly and only gets indignant at the idea they should drink - WP:NOTHERE either way - David Gerard (talk) 21:27, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
• Not to cast aspersions, but might this editor be an AI experiment? Perhaps semi-supervised? Their contributions seem quite...otherish. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 22:05, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Possible, but the focus on edit-warring promotional content into crypto articles leads me to think that's the underlying purpose - David Gerard (talk) 22:18, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support the recommendation for indefinite block for WP:NOTHERE and WP:CIR. It's impossible to communicate with an editor who says imagining that the energy of any thought in a social situation - in which decisions are made - such as in wikipedia - although the different users are in separate places to each other (accepting this as true for this argument) the energy of another user changes the energy situation (synaptically specifically) of any another wikipedia user in a situation where there is exchange of information between those users (i.e. written words) - localizing the problem at one user is an error therefore because for example David Gerard (A) and this user are in a shared energy situation - i.e. processing of sensory date (i.e. light and information from wikipedia contributions) - the situation is reactionary between the two users - not an example of the actual people as they exist exclusively, with regards (although JoJo's comment makes me wonder if it's some weird performance art attempt, Wikipedia isn't the place for it). Schazjmd (talk) 22:15, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

They even appear to be using the third person inconsistently. I see many instances of "me" and "I" sprinkled in to their replies, like they forgot to switch. Are you sure this isn't someone trolling? 2001:4898:80E8:36:D0F3:CB03:6C51:3DD5 (talk) 22:24, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• "This page is for discussion of urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems" - looking at my edit count page -

deleted edits is 0.9% ::*of the two reasons given for a discussion here - no-one prior to these two reports has included a complaint against this user here, so how do the two users hope to convince this user, at least, or anyone else that the problem is chronic? - given that my edit count is 2,623 - how would they know there is a problem if the edits are in thousands and the percentage of error is < 1 - doesn't indicate a chronic problem

with, regards, autonomous agent 5 - version: prototype (talk) 22:31, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I would like to bring to the attention of concerned editors here the fact of the behaviour of David Gerard @ User talk:David Gerard#Notice of_edit_warring noticeboard_discussion & User_talk:Autonomous agent 5#Warnings - currently at the second of these page links this user (that is autonomous agent 5) has written a reply (18:07, 9 July 2021) to 16:25, 9 July 2021 David Gerard which is on the subject of the current editorial situation @ Chainlink - which as an article is going in no direction of development and has reached an impasse between this editor and David Gerard; this editor (that is Autonomous agent 5) is not intending to make any changes which are in any way contestable at Chainlink until the current situation of conflict is solved - but given the comment written at Autonomous agent 5#Warnings 18:07, 9 July 2021 (reply to David Gerard) the user has not written a reply there and instead arrived here - but I haven't stated I'm intending to continue with changes @ the conflicted article - furthermore no-one else has thought to indicate a problem so in this users opinion David Gerard is trying to divert the consensus forming @ Chainlink because the user has no response possible to the questions/ criticisms this user (Aa5) has identified:

18:45, 6 July 2021 will not allow the "Publications" section

reverted the "Design" section @ 15:23, 6 July 2021‎ containing only green sources WP: RSP @ 15:23, 6 July 2021 with the summary "rv promotional, crypto, deprecated content - ::*Wikipedia is not for advertising or promotion"

cite 6 @ this version "Chainlink is currently headquartered within the Cayman Islands" is yet again reverted from the article @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainlink_(blockchain) - the user has reverted this sentence @ 15:18, 8 July 2021, 08:57, 7 July 2021, ‎ 15:23, 6 July 2021‎ (please see the foot of this reply for a relevant comment on this particular aspect of this problem)

all I would like is answers to these queries from David Gerard, I don't intend to cause a problem to any other user and make a genuine and considered effort to improve wikipedia - so this situation and the criticisms are unfounded, at least to this degree - which is provable by looking at the article version @ Chainlink - which I don't hope to be a partisan of - I have already accommodated on numerous occasions the critical input of David Gerard @ Chainlink - and found his criticism valuable - but considering David Gerard has had no dealings with me prior to Chainlink, the problem is restricted to the situation identified by the fact of the Sanctions - which shows the subject of cryptocurrencies etc is conflict prone - is the reason for this situation - I don't know the reason for David Gerard won't engage in dialogue with this editor (that is Aa5) on the subject of Chainlink - when I can give my assurance there won't be any changes to that article until consensus is reached - this isn't that dialogue, if no other previously involved editor is having a problem then this discussion shouldn't be occurring - also - when my contributions to wikipedia began I might have made some mistakes, but considering the deleted % I can't agree that the problem is being represented accurately:

Talk:Chainlink_(blockchain)#reversions

c.f. It may or may not be registered in the Caymans, but that link does not show where its headquarters are - David Gerard (talk) 21:22, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

if you open the link the source shows explicitly headquarters Cayman Islands, with regards, autonomous agent 5 - version: prototype (talk) 22:18, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

the debated link is @ 13:32, 8 July 2021 version (which is before David Gerard has reverted @ 15:18, 8 July 2021‎ - cite 5 https://www.weforum.org/organizations/chainlink (World Economic Forum) shows exactly Headquartered Cayman Islands, with regards, autonomous agent 5 - version: prototype (talk) 22:31, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• I answered these questions: use independent reliable sources on crypto articles, not promotional, primary or press-release sources, and stop edit-warring such sources back into articles.

The above text is a perfect worked example of what it's like dealing with Aa5 - David Gerard (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

@David Gerard: if you would like to look @ the source https://www.weforum.org/organizations/chainlink tell me, and other editors here, if you see @ the source the information which I'm stating or the information you are stating, with regards, autonomous agent 5 - version: prototype (talk) 22:35, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Primary promotional description sourced from the company, absolutely not a third-party RS for this usage - David Gerard (talk) 22:37, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

that's fine, why put a message @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chainlink_(blockchain) which is obviously not reality or true?, with regards, autonomous agent 5 - version: prototype (talk) 22:39, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Implying a long and good standing editor is lying is not a good method of defending your actions. 2001:4898:80E8:36:D0F3:CB03:6C51:3DD5 (talk) 22:52, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not stating David Gerard is lying look for yourself! he has written at the Talk page discussion that link does not show where its headquarters are but the source shows exactly the contrary to David Gerard statement - I think David Gerard is stressed maybe, or presuming I'm lying - if you look you will see also that I'm not lying so the source is valid so the content should be in the article, and David Gerard has reverted the content 3 times, and is now stating something that isn't reality, idk the reason David Gerard is stating it, with regards, autonomous agent 5 - version: prototype (talk) 23:05, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support indefinite block. This editor appears to make problematic edits too frequently, including adding promotional content and edit warring it back in, and their responses in talk page discussions (and many of their edit summaries) are often nearly incomprehensible. I do not get the impression that they even realize there are any issues with their behavior. If this editor is genuinely acting in good faith, then there would appear to be significant competency issues that prevent them from being able to contribute constructively. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 23:08, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

how the previous editor is able to make that judgement? if my edits are in thousands but the deleted edits are less then 1% and no-one else has thought to comment of there being a problem - does not confirm the previous editors statement - If you would like to view the comments - "It may or may not be registered in the Caymans, but that link does not show where its headquarters are" David Gerard (talk) 21:22, 9 July 2021 is not true and is written on the Talk page of the article Chainlink which is the article David Gerard and this editor were conflicting @ - that doesn't indicate my lack of competency does it?, with regards, autonomous agent 5 - version: prototype (talk) 23:22, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

who else is suggesting a block here in any case? wallyfromdilbert - you are escalating the situation without looking at the reality of the situation - the disagreement began @ Chainlink, and David Gerard and this user (that is Aa5) haven't had any other dealings on wikipedia before - and no-one else has previously thought to mention a problem with my activities on wikipedia - if you look to the problem it isn't actually my behaviour - the discussion was begun because David Gerard was repeatedly reverting at Chainlink which isn't allowed - while this editor (that is Aa5) hasn't reverted anything and has made efforts to change the article to respond to the indications of David Gerard, if you look through the editorial summaries you will be able to see that, with regards, autonomous agent 5 - version: prototype (talk) 23:28, 9 July 2021 (UTC) corr. 23:29, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• God, all that work and the user is blocked as a sock.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:36, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Told you it was trolling. 2001:4898:80E8:36:D0F3:CB03:6C51:3DD5 (talk) 23:51, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

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IP disruption

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5.112.124.216 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) keeps being disruptive on Khoy Khanate and Sarab Khanate. The references and quotes that keep getting added do not explicitly mention these two entities and I have given my reasons for my revert, asked them to use the talkpage and warned them on their talk-page. The page also falls under the decisions placed on Kurdish-related subjects Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds and Kurdistan. --Semsûrî (talk) 20:46, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

They are editing from mobile, so I think WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU applies. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:30, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

@David Eppstein: So what should I do? --Semsûrî (talk) 08:45, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Semsûrî Ask for page protection?Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:55, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I will do that now. --Semsûrî (talk) 15:57, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

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Turned to page protection and got the two pages protected, so this can close. --Semsûrî (talk) 21:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

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Peruvian date-changing vandal: music and BLPs

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• 200.121.230.230/25 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))

Somebody using an IP range in Peru has been changing to wrong dates for music releases and also biographies of living persons.[347][348][349] Can we get a rangeblock? Binksternet (talk) 02:13, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Blocked 200.121.230.230/25 for 3 months. Johnuniq (talk) 07:31, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

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Long term pattern of Wikilink vandalism from Jordanian IP's

While browsing some articles I've spotted what seems to be a long term spate of vandalism coming out of some Jordanian IP's. The modus operandi is to add piped wikilinks to the first word of articles, linking to unrelated or offensive terms. Some example diffs: [350] [351] [352] [353]. IP's I've found adding these links include:

• 212.34.11.74 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 212.34.12.32 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 212.34.13.61 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 212.34.20.210 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 212.34.22.221 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 212.34.23.161 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 212.34.23.165 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Could someone with more knowledge of IP's please figure out what the smallest range is that would include all of these addresses, and whether it would be feasible to block? This seems to have been going on since April. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 02:39, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

The smallest range to cover all of those would be 212.34.0.0/19, which covers 8192 individual addresses. There are a handful of good-faith edits in the last 50 edits from that range, but the majority are not so good; a lot of obviously inappropriate WP:OVERLINKing like [354],[355],[356], [357], going back as least as far as April. A rangeblock is probably in order. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 02:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

(non-admin comment) Two of those four examples link to DAB pages, to the aggravation of DABfixers, and all four violate MOS:BOLDAVOID. Narky Blert (talk) 05:52, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)′ The potential collateral damage could be reduced to 3072 addresses by covering a couple of narrower ranges instead: 212.34.8.0/21 and 212.34.20.0/22.—Odysseus1479 06:22, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I blocked Special:Contributions/212.34.8.0/21 and Special:Contributions/212.34.20.0/22 for one month. Johnuniq (talk) 07:39, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Is it worth considering an edit filter to tag linking the first word of an article? (Not a dab; that's normal.) I often revert test edits such as this. Certes (talk) 17:10, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

@Certes:That would be one option, but the filter would need some fairly complex logic I would have thought, because there's a load of frontmatter type material that can contain wikilinks that we'd want to skip (e.g. infoboxes, hatnotes, deletion discussion tags, cleanup templates). Another option that might be worth considering would be a filter that detects the addition of wikilinks to common words that should not ordinarily be linked, (e.g. the, a, in, as, an, is ...). It shouldn't be too complicated to impement - you'd just need to check for a pattern that looks something like [[foo]] or |foo]] to catch links that are set up to display as those words. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 17:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't want to digress too far from ANI matters but I monitor new links to A (example) and could add The, etc. However, I wouldn't catch bad links to normally legitimate targets as reported here. Certes (talk) 18:02, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

@Certes: The filter regex I suggested (checking for for cases where the text starts with double brackets or starts with a pipe) would catch both links to the word and piped links displaying as the word. I'll set up a request on the edit filter requests page. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 18:35, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that the bandwidth such a filter would demand would be justified by the evil averted. EEng 04:56, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive IP

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103.203.72.65 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been purely disruptive:

• edit warring by continuously adding unsourced content in Journey into Mystery (Loki) (nine times: [358], [359], [360], [361], [362], [363], [364], [365], [366])
• edit warring by adding the phrase race-swapped to Ravonna (five times: [367], [368], [369], [370], [371])
• adding Black to Gugu Mbatha-Raw and Wunmi Mosaku lead sections, against WP:ETHNICITY (Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability), and reinstating it one time so far after being reverted (Mbatha-Raw: [372], [373]; Mosaku: [374], [375])

The IP has not attempted to start a talk page discussion in any of these cases. They only "communicated" once, telling Cardei012597 (talk · contribs) to Stop reverting my edits on Loki pages you right knob([376]). Note that the IP hasn't made any constructive edits (IP's contributions). —El Millo (talk) 04:22, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Does this really need discussed here at ANI, or just appropriately warning the user (already done) and then reporting to WP:AIV for disruptive editing? - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:01, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

More than once I've reported to AIV and the repeated addition of unsourced content was treated as a "content dispute". Should I report it there now? —El Millo (talk) 05:04, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

From what I can see, they have continued their disruptive editing after the final warning without any attempts to discuss their editing. As far as I am concerned, nothing more needs to be done, it is time for a block. - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:09, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

The user has been reported to WP:AIV and blocked. —El Millo (talk) 05:47, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

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User:Shinjoya violating WP:COVIDDS at ZyCoV-D

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Shinjoya is continuously adding back World's first DNA COVID-19 vaccine WP:PROMOTIONAL statement in 'Technology' section, which the company have incorporated in their vaccine logo and which also violates WP:NPOV. The user is also engaged in adding bio-medical claims without WP:MEDRS and arguing I repeat that WP:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) doesn't apply to this. on Talk:ZyCoV-D. The user has been warned multiple times about this and WP:COVIDDS but still repeating the same. The user was recently community-imposed indefinite topic ban from caste-related topics for 90 days. The editor is now suject to WP:COVIDDS. Thank you. Run n Fly (talk) 12:16, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Courtesy ping @Toddy1: since the editor was also engaged in correcting the mistakes of Shinjoya and explain WP:MEDRS on Talk:ZyCoV-D. Run n Fly (talk) 12:16, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

@Run n Fly, I had already explained my edits on the talk page itself. I had added this which you reverted as promotional. Then I explained on talk page that the content is not promotional. But you removed the content again without responding on talk page. Having seen your revert a second time, I reverted you again. After that, I had already said that I am not going to re-add the content until the vaccine gets approval. So, the content dispute had already been over. You bringing the matter to this ANI was simply uncalled for. Shinjoya (talk) 12:32, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I have removed the references you added because it serves no purpose except WP:CITEBOMB non-medical references. See [377]. Also, we need to wait patiently for WP:MEDRS rather add non-medical references.Run n Fly (talk) 12:52, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I am not going to re-add the content until the vaccine gets approval is a misleading statement. The user is simply failing to comply with WP:MEDRS. This is not a content-dispute rather than ignoring rules set by the community for certain articles. Run n Fly (talk) 12:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

It's less than a month since the editor was Tbanned from the caste area, I'm not sure there's much more rope to give. —SpacemanSpiff 18:21, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Blocked. I agree with the Spaceman. Topic ban Shinjoya from one controversial area they've been disrupting, and you apparently immediately get them disrupting another controversial area. I'm not up for topic banning a user over and over — in the case of Covid, it would obviously be for insisting on non-MEDRS compliant sources. I have blocked the user indefinitely for being a net negative to the encyclopedia. Bishonen | tålk 19:35, 10 July 2021 (UTC).

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Sacred Light Of Love

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Sacred Light Of Love (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

The user was blocked for persistent WP:NOTFORUM violations at Talk:Legend of the Rainbow Warriors and using unwanted prophetic sweet-talk like in Special:Diff/1032947537. We request TPA revocation after continually spamming their own talk page with similar disruption. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 21:17, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, also, it appears that even after a 48hr ban has been issued, they have not learnt and are still using the language they have been asked (repeatedly) to stop! Tommi1986 ^{let's talk!} 21:20, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree. It's a particularly gross case of WP:NOTHERE. As the blocking admin, I was just about to up it to indef and revoke TPA, but as I was feeling rather annoyed, made the choice to back off for a bit and give them enough rope to make their attitude even more clear. Support upping to indef and revocation. I can do it, but I need a break. Fine with me if someone else handles it. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:29, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support Indef and revoke TPA as clearly WP:NOTHERE Tommi1986 ^{let's talk!} 21:31, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• I have indef blocked as nothere w/o TPA. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:49, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

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BLP violation

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Truly liberal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Does Special:Diff/1032939259 and Special:Diff/1032938536 need a revdel? Claims a BLP is a white supremacist holocaust denier using blacklisted OpIndia (RSP entry) as a source. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 00:44, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Blocking per WP:NOTHERE. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:08, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Revdel'd too. Acroterion (talk) 01:08, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Acroterion, the following diffs may need to be revdel'd too, it's visible on the page at present. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 01:21, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Done. Acroterion (talk) 01:26, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

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Disruptive Edit warring and incivility at Pesaha Appam

Romancatholickochi is continuously adding unsourced and disputed content in article Pesaha Appam. The user was repeatedly warned for his or her disruptive edits. Meanwhile, Libraedit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is engaged in an edit war with Romancatholickochi. Now they are personally attacking each other in the edit summaries.

• [378]
• [379]

Br Ibrahim john (talk) 03:05, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

A warning needs to be sent out to Libraedit about WP:Personal attacks. Romancatholickochi needs to either be blocked for a week or topic ban seeing that the editor has a history of violating WP:3RR on the article. Jerm (talk) 04:18, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked Romancatholickochi from editing Pesaha Appam and warned Libraedit to refrain from edit warring and personal attacks. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 18:38, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

It seems Romancatholickochi is back with a new account Romancatholickerala (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).

• Special:Diff/1033178998

Br Ibrahim john (talk) 03:36, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Cullen328 More action has to be taken now that there's a sock. Jerm (talk) 07:49, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I indefinitely blocked Romancatholickerala (talk · contribs) as a duck sock and semi-protected Pesaha appam for a month. Johnuniq (talk) 10:00, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Johnuniq & Cullen328 for the help. Jerm (talk) 15:20, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Concern about comment made by User:Supermann

After declining Draft:Stephen Hogan, author (User:Supermann) started personal attacks on my talk page, calling me that I have a myopic view (diff). I earlier requested them not to make personal attack (diff). I am very saddened by this incident and feeling insecure. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 05:05, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I have just now declined their draft. Some of the sources are unreliable, or YouTube sources. The person doesn't seem to be enough notable as per WP:GNG seeing at a cursory glance. There is possibly WP:COI with the article creator. — A.A Prinon  ^{Leave a dialogue} 09:12, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

While I don't think that this comment about your point of view amounts to a personal attack I will say that the real superman would never be that rude. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 09:18, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

No comment on the merits of the draft, but I don't see anything approaching an actionable personal attack there. The creators of drafts are often disappointed when they are declined: to say that the reviewer has a myopic view is just figurative way of saying that they disagree with your position on the draft. It's a bit confrontational, but nothing that warrants a report here. If you're going to review drafts at AfC, I'd urge you to overlook comments like that and focus on the important point: explain clearly why you declined the draft and what they could do to improve it. Girth Summit _(blether) 09:23, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

What about this comment accusing decliners of Hibernophobia? This seems like a PA to me CiphriusKane (talk) 09:51, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

You are required to notify someone when discussing them at ANI. It says so in a big bright notice when you edit this page. I have notified them for you. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 09:26, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes that is clearly a bit worse. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 09:58, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Saying that it would be a hate crime against the Irish if it is declined again is obviously very silly, but it wasn't directed at any editor in particular. I'll give them some advice on their talk. Girth Summit _(blether) 11:51, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• TBST, I do not see anything so egregious that would warrant an ANI be initiated that could not be solved by just ignoring them. Furthermore, it is a belief of mine that no one can make you feel insecure about your own self without your consent. Take it from someone who suffers from acromegaly. Celestina007 (talk) 13:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

  Many thanks for the support. As demonstrated by Girth Summit, s/he/they actually took the time to improving the article. I certainly can't afford all the paywalls out there like that of the Times, since I wasn't paid by anyone and don't have any conflict of interests. It's weird and frustrating when I see fellow editors just like shooting stuff down instead of making the effort of improving it. Btw, there is only one Youtube source not sources. It was just meant to help the readers visualize it, since not all readers may have seen the cult movie. I would argue it's fair use since it's of low resolution. I wish there was more camaraderie here to really make knowledge more accessible in one place, while I understand Wikipedia positions itself as a tertiary source. Supermann (talk) 16:33, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

User Nkemonwudiwe Nothere and Coi Editing

Nkemonwudiwe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• In the last 11 years the editor Nkemonwudiwe has violated our policy on image copyright over and over again, see [380] [381] [382] to mention a few, simultaneously and more worrisome for me is their edit pattern, which is consistent with the edit pattern of editors engaged in less than ethical practices which comprise of creating promotional articles for non notable persons or articles they have a COI with, see this article. A quick glance at their talk page, see here tells the story. I do not know exactly what should be done thus I’m bringing this before the community. Today they created a very promotional article yet again see [383]. Celestina007 (talk) 16:28, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

  I changed all the links in your post to wikilinks, as they go directly to pages in the mobile version. I just A7'd another new article, PROdded an unused file of a person without an article, and FfD'd a file almost identical to a subsequent upload. Jane Michael Ekanem was previously deleted by AfD in 2015. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 16:46, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

@LaundryPizza03, thank you, editing via mobile can be tough. The assistance is appreciated. Celestina007 (talk) 16:51, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Socking and Vandalising

User:Theobserver8991 and User:Redbutterfly0987 are clearly sock accounts are editing same content with fake edit summaries and deleting what they don't like in Breast Tax and Channar revolt and Nangeli with edit summaries with no meaning. The accounts are trying to suppress content they don't like. Admins ,kindly take action. 2402:3A80:518:EABA:0:45:C264:1001 (talk) 17:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This should have been reported to SPI instead of ANI, and you did not provide diffs or warn the users. But, I have warned them. Sample diffs and talk page discussions:

• Theobserver8991 (talk · contribs): Special:Diff/1032759214, Special:Diff/1033053792, Special:Diff/1033058895, Special:Diff/1032673809, Talk:Channar_revolt#Unreliable_sources_and_twisted_information, User_talk:Pharaoh_of_the_Wizards#Channar_revolt
• Redbutterfly0987 (talk · contribs): Talk:Ezhava#Extended-confirmed-protected_edit_request_on_2_July_2021 (5 requests to replace an image), Special:Diff/1031636390, Special:Diff/1027528151/1032939549, Talk:Breast_Tax#Please_verify_the_contect_and_improve_the_languge_. (2 complaints about sourcing; several similar complaints higher up such as Special:Diff/1033049530), Special:Diff/1023727884/1033074817

That both users made similar edits to Talk:Breast Tax and attempted to censor negative langauge about Ezhava people is indicative of sockpuppetry.  Looks like a duck to me, but will seek CheckUser verification. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 21:02, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I was only correcting misinformation, as this is made to confuse names and topics. Channar revolt have nothing to do with ezhava then why unnecessary the name of the community is mentioned, everywhere to created confusions. Is it a genuine concern ? Also most of the references are mainly based on books related to religious conversions. How it is reliable in such disputed and sensitive topics?

Please scrutinize it as there are lot of objections regarding this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redbutterfly0987 (talk • contribs) 21:47, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

EDIT: It seems that Worldofknowledge121 (talk · contribs) is part of the sock ring as well. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Worldofknowledge121. Fortunately, other comments at Talk:Breast Tax seem to vindicate Redbutterfly0987's concerns about that article. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 22:01, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Ipswich edit war

Hi I'd like to bring an ongoing edit and page owning war going on between me and user @LakeKnowledge:...they keep reverting after reverting my edits to the lead of Ipswich...I added for example the county town of Suffolk but they keep adding a historic county town in Suffolk which it is in theory but it is still the county town...I corrected the error and even provided a link and they gone on a tirade of accusing me of vandalism and not making grammatical sense...when his doesn't either...I haven't bothered trying to reach a concensus with them as they likely keep the same attitude of they are right and I'm wrong...the incident is can an admin or admins step in and tell me and him both who is correct in their edits and maybe monitor the Ipswich page as this edit war is really pathetic...they haven't explained why they have an issue with the lead just it makes in their opinion which is not valid reason doesn't make grammatical sense?RailwayJG (talk) 21:55, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

RailwayJG this looks like a content dispute, rather than a matter for ANI. If you want to change the lead of Ipswich and another editor reverts you, it is better to follow the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle and start a discussion on the article talk page rather than edit warring. TSventon (talk) 22:12, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I am a bit of an expert on this, if someone needs some input. Just let me know! The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 22:18, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I have added to the article talk page would some admin be willing to input on it?

RailwayJG I would recommend using a format similar to the one in Template:Request edit, mentioning that you have been involved in a slow edit war and pinging LakeKnowledge.

• Specific text to be added and removed: ADD TEXT HERE
• Reason for the change: ADD TEXT HERE
• References supporting change: ADD URL AT LEAST TSventon (talk) 23:09, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay I will do cheers also LakeKnowledge doesn't have a user page to ping to and they are hardly active on their talk page so I only linked here :) RailwayJG (talk) 23:21, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

RailwayJG I don't think the absence of a user page makes any difference and it is important to try to inform the other editor. TSventon (talk) 23:30, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I've already put a link on their page to here so they be notifiedRailwayJG (talk) 00:04, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

User: Johnpacklambert emptying categories prematurely; edit warring

User:Johnpacklambert has nominated dozens of categories for deletion and merge. Before the nominations are closed, has started emptying some of them without any notice. When challenged, he refused to honour WP:BRD.

• Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 June 18#1431 establishments in Ukraine: he removed Derazhnia[384] and Khmelnytskyi, Ukraine[385] from the category, reverted my revert,[386], and then at talk:Khmelnytskyi, Ukraine#Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine, simply refused to respect the normal (academic, political, and Wikipedia) practice of treating earliest mention as the date of foundation.
• Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 June 18#Establishments in Ukraine when most of Ukraine was under the Russian Empire (33 categories): removed articles
  • Lviv National Agrarian University[387]
  • Trinity Monastery of St. Jonas[388]
  • Odessa University[389]
  • Grekov Odessa Art School[390]
  • Odessa Military Academy[391]
  • Beskydy Tunnel[392]
  • Perechyn Timber-and-Chemical combine[393]
  • Port of Skadovsk[394]
  • Odessa Art Museum[395]

There is no reason to remove these articles from the nominated categories during the merge discussion. If the proposal is accepted, then they would be removed as a matter of course. But if it is rejected, then these categories have been wrongfully removed. In my opinion he is doing so to stack the merge proposal by making it look like these categories are empty and unneeded. Perhaps he is also so sure that his rationale about the definition of “establishment” is the only possible correct view that he doesn’t need to wait for consensus to proceed.

In several of his nominations I have provided alternative valid rationales for inclusion of places in “establishment by country” categories, and on his talk page (User talk:Johnpacklambert#Historical categories by period) suggested that a central discussion is needed to establish a guideline for these scores or hundreds of changes, but he has refused to accept my arguments, and refused to start a broader discussion on the category framework.

As remedy, I suggest he revert all of his category changes under all of his nominations, including ones I may not have found, and make a note of this in each relevant discussion. The category discussions should remain open for a reasonable period afterwards. Perhaps discussion participants should be notified. —Michael Z. 23:41, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

The relevant categories fall under discretionary sanctions per WP:AC/DS (Eastern Europe), and the user has been alerted.[396] —Michael Z. 23:57, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I was reading the discussion as it developed. From what I could tell Mzajsc and few othwr people repeatedly copy and pasted the same (or extremely similar) bad faithed acusations that the whole thing was (is) due to imperalism/colonialism, instead of engaging the counter points other people (not just JPL) were making. So I highly doubt any resonable admin would close the duscussions in Mzajac's direction.

Also, at one point JPL said someone (not him) had emptied out one of the catogries. So there should really be more of an investigation into who actually did what before the finger pointing/reverting takes place. Especially if he was just "following the crowd." Not that I think something being removed from a category matters that much during a discussion though. Who ever did it. Just like AfDs don't suddenly become invalid or are people normally chastized (let alone reported to ANI) if someone edits an article during one. Adamant1 (talk) 01:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Adamant1: without comment on the detail of this case, I'd note that this seems more akin to someone blanking an article undergoing AfD, that would probably be viewed as rather more problematic. Nosebagbear (talk) 11:27, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Whatever the case, going by what Liz said it sounds like there is precedent to remove links from categories that are going through a CfD. There's zero precedent to blank pages that are going through AfD. That doesn't mean I personally agree that the links should be removed, but I don't think it's worth sanctioning JPL over since it's already going on either. There should really be a broader discussion about it at WT:CFD instead.

@Adamant1: That is false. Please back up your accusation with evidence, if you expect anyone to take it as in good faith. —Michael Z. 16:09, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately it's a massive hassle to provide diffs when phone editing. Especially when they would be in the double digits. That said, the first thing I saw when I opened the link at the top of this complaint was Place Clichy saying "Oppose per Mzajac. In the age of imperialism, which is also the golden age of nationalism...Etc..Etc.." Which they copied and pasted like 9 times, without ever responding to anything JPL was saying. You also opposed the whole thing because "It is eliminating national and social history in favour of colonialism." Plus "it represents an extremely dated colonial WP:POV and WP:BIAS against the national histories of nations." So claims of imperialism, nationalism, and colonialism were being tossed around a lot and at the expensive of actually engaging in the discussion. Especially with Place Clichy. That was just from a quick glance to. I'm sure there's more, but that's all I feel like contributing. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I have no comments about the Johnpacklambert's edits but as someone who regularly deals with empty categories, it's becoming more common for categories to be emptied prior to a CFD decision. I'm not pointing fingers, just pointing at a trend for categories to be emptied prior to a decision of whether to delete, merge or rename categories. It can sometimes be a challenge to determine who is emptying them. It might be a good discussion to happen at WT:CFD. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:15, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
• None of these entries fit in the category in question. Odessa was part of the area of the Ottoman Empire that as a unit was much further south. It was no more part of any logical Ukraine than anything in Bessarabia. In the case of the places in Austria-Hungary they cannot be placed in a category under the Russian Empire. In the first two cases there is not enough evidence to place them in a specific year. If something clearly does not belong in a category, it can be removed, even if it is the only entry. I even explained in depth about the first two having no evidence that was the year of their founding. There is no coherent way to say any of these things happened in Ukraine in those specific years.John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
• The first example, the university in Lviv, was founded in what was then Lemberg. Which was in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Ukraine category for that year is a sub category of the Russian Empire category, so we cannot place in it things that clearly happened outside the Russian Empire.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:04, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Actually that was in 1852, so it was in the Austrian Empire. There is no reason to allow categorization to be preserved in a case where it is so clearly wrong. Only a few years before the Polish nationalists in that area had insisted the very idea that there were Ukrainians was a ploy by the Austrian government to kill the asperations of Polish nationalists. National identities are very contested in the 19th century, but in Europe international boundaries at any given time are clear.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:07, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

    Johnpacklambert, please respect WP:BRD and discuss the specific category changes at the relevant articles’ talk pages, or better yet, wait for your CFD results before making changes. I filed this ANI because you refused to do that, there, and not to re-litigate the subject-specific questions here. —Michael Z. 16:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

There's nothing in WP:BRD that dictates discussions have to occur on the articles talk pages when there's a dispute, otherwise there couldn't be RfCs or ANI complaints, and JPL was discussing the changes on the relevant CfD talk pages. Which is more then adequate. Or it would have needlessly created duplicate discussions with the same exact people and points being made. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Johnpacklambert should stop emptying categories he nominated (or plans to nominate) for deletion, as that influences and pre-empts the discussion badly. In many cases, his nominations for "obviously wrong" categories failed to get consensus, as there is serious disagreement about the best way to categorize such establishment by country / region / whatever entries (for JPL and some others, only one view is possible, the "historical" one, and the "current" point of view, that something in "current" country X was established in year Y, is unacceptable and should be eradicated by all means possible: the idea that a lot of readers might be more interested in what was established in what was established Ukraine throughout the ages, year by year, even at times when the country didn't exist, seems to be totally alien or unacceptable to them, as it is "wrong" from their point of view and no other point of view is acceptable). If they are not willing to stop this, I guess another editing restriction is in order. Fram (talk) 16:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't remember the exact details and I don't feel like bludgeoning, but there was an AfD recently for what was essentially a personal essay written by someone who thought Afghanistan (which was formed in like 1949) should somehow be credited for something done 2,000 years ago by Sumerians, just because it took place in what is now modern day Afghanistan. Not surprisingly the article wasn't kept. Such articles are a huge slippery slope that can lead to a lot of nationalist type edit warring, arguing, and unmaintainable/nonsensical duplication of historical subjects if allowed. That whatever our personals beliefs about the issue are, would not be maintainable . Especially when people start wanting to go other way where Sumerians are responsible for things that are currently happening in Afghanistan, because time is just an imperialist Western scientific notion and other views are possible, or whatever. At that point the big bang/god/Neanderthals should be mentioned in every article. There's zero precedence for it either and it's not worth restricting JBL's editing over. Adamant1 (talk) 21:59, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

IP user spamming/harassing talk page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I apologize if this isn't the right board, but IP user User:190.219.181.124 has left multiple messages on my talk page (I deleted the first one, they then reposted it. Link to their edits [397]) in which they call me a "son of a b*itch" and also link to some Pastebin post, which I refuse to read. I think it's in response to an edit [398] of theirs (using a different IP) I deleted months ago, but that does not justify their behavior. Coinmanj (talk) 00:43, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Coinmanj: The IP user in question has been blocked by Writ Keeper 31 hours, and their TPA revoked shortly after that. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 01:28, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

There has been a further development. I will be extending the block. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 03:44, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Assassination of Meir Kahane

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hi. Shadybabs and Volunteer Marek are practically edit-warring to introduce POV WP:labels in Assassination of Meir Kahane (see here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here), despite the fact that Wikipedia doesn't use loaded words like "terrorist" unless it's attributed to a specific country or organization that make such designation, and only when that information is relevant, appropriate for the reader to know and directly related to the topic. I request the intervention of an administrator. I don't see how we can solve this dispute without edit-warring and at this point it's really hard for me to assume good faith at this point.--SoaringLL (talk) 02:21, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, OP blocked. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 04:00, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Persistent addition of unsourced content by User:16ConcordeSSC

• 16ConcordeSSC (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Examples of unsourced edits:

• June 29 – diff1
• July 7 – diff2
• July 7 – diff3
• July 11 – diff4
• After final warning – diff5

User is a relatively new editor that frequently adds unsourced information on a daily basis, and has continued this behavior beyond the final warning. They are also marking every edit as minor, despite pleas from multiple editors to stop. The editor is aware of their talk page, evident from replies around the time of account creation, but appears to be ignoring the warnings. --GoneIn60 (talk) 10:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Anglyn insisting on adding their unreliable translation

On 13 March 2020, Anglyn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) added a translation of the Corpus Hermeticum to the Hermetica page by a certain Maxwell Lewis Latham. Since Latham appears to have no scholarly credentials (Google scholar has nothing on him, and what Goodreads writes about them does not inspire any confidence), and since the translation was published by what appears to be a vanity publisher (Falcon Books, e.g. listed here as such), it was reverted on 21 June 2020 by Ian.thomson (not actively editing at the moment), at which point Anglyn re-added the translation and got reverted again for adding unreliable and promotional content, followed by some more reverting back and forth ([399], [400], [401], [402]).

Ian.thomson also engaged with Anglyn at their talk page about Wikipedia's requirements for reliability and how to deal with a potential COI, but without much success. In their last reply at the talk page, and after having expressed their intention not to edit Wikipedia again, Anglyn referred to Latham's translation as "my translation".

However, yesterday they returned to add the Latham translation again, arguing how Latham is not a practising Hermeticist and holds a relevant Master's degree. After I reverted this for adding an unreliable source, Anglyn reinstated with the message that this is Latham's first translation after ten years of studying Latin and Ancient Greek. As Ian.thomson before me (though perhaps with a little bit more AGF), I explained our policy on reliable sources and inquired about a potential COI, but was met with the same attitude: rather than discussing reliability or potential COI, Anglyn chose to point at my deficient English and to call me an "amateur". They seem to be WP:NOTHERE. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 11:32, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Warned. El_C 11:43, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

False accusations of sockpuppetry

Shadybabs goes around spewing false accusations of sockpuppetry against established editors. [403], [404], [405], [406], and so on (there are more, but you get the idea). tgeorgescu (talk) 12:34, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%91_%D7%94%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9F

Yup, but Czello and Sirius85 are not indeffed right now. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:39, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Czello was (likely unwillingly) reverting on behalf of a sock, if he (or you) wants to claim ownership of those edits, that's on him. I haven't reverted Sirius85, in fact I reverted back to his edit while undoing the sockpuppet edits. Quit assuming bad faith and making baseless accusations.

(edit conflict) They aren't accusing either of those editors of being sockpuppets, in one case they're restoring the article to the version edited by Sirius85 to remove the edits by the sockpuppet, in the other they're re-adding content that was removed Czello by due to a talk page dispute initiated by the sockpuppet. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 12:47, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Ok, now I get the idea. Anyway, putting Islamic beliefs first at Abraham could be seen as disruptive. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE editing by user:Səlmanöğlu

• Səlmanöğlu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Added an entirely unsourced section to the Language shift article: "In Iran, during the last hundred years, many measures have been taken to Persianize non-Persian speaking people with a lot of propaganda and ridiculing of non-Persian speakers, while 50% of Iranian people are non-Persian speakers." No edit summary, source or explanation.[407]
• Removed "Persia" from the Afsharid dynasty article ("Delete a word that is not necessary to say and It is against the national interests of the iran")[408]
• Added numerous historical Iranian kings to the List of Azerbaijanis article. No edit summary, source or explanation.[409]
• Changed "Persian" into "turkish" on the Ismail I article, accompanied by a non-WP:RS link.[410]
• Removed "Persian" from the Mohammad Reza Golzar article, only keeping "Azeri" (which he later turned into "Azerbaijani"). No edit summary or explanation.[411][412]
• Removed a link to "Azerbaijan (Iran)" from the Tabriz Khanate article. No edit summary or explanation.[413]
• Has been given numerous warnings[414]-[415]-[416]

Looking at the compelling evidence, it is safe to say that said user is not here to build this encyclopedia. - LouisAragon (talk) 13:08, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I would support a topic ban. Səlmanöğlu should no longer be able to touch pages related to Iran. Jerm (talk) 14:55, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello.

• About deleting name of persia from Afsharid dynasty article is that today the official name of the country is IRAN nothing else, writing other names instead of official name of the country which is IRAN is kind of misleading the readers.
• About article of Ismail I I must say word of Khatay'i is a Turkish word and I also added the sources that word have nothing to do with persian language. If it written like (خطا) it will be Arabic and if we write like (ختائی) which is the write form it will be Azerbaijani which is name of a place and according to the source which I added it is Turkish word you can study these sources.[417],[418],[419],[420] and now again you persianize the article without any sources.[421]
• About adding the king's you can go and read their personal articles in wiki you can see they where born in Azerbaijan of Iran and also ethnically they are Irainian Azerbaijani and also they had sources.
• And also Mohammad Reza Golzar is not persian he is an absolute Azerbaijani and I added a source and as you can see in this video in (1:50) he say proudly I am absolute Azeri he don't say I'm perso-azeri did he say? And also in this video in (00:04) he said I'm proudly Turk(please watch and listen them carefully) and also Azerbaijani or Azerbaijani-Turk or azeri are same.[422]

your act's are really shameful according to your edit history and your act's we can say you are anti-Azerbaijani and anti-Iranian and you just want to persianize every thing.Səlmanöğlu (talk) 21:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Rmmiller44

• Rmmiller44 (talk · contribs) has been really "pushing" the envelope of what constitutes civility, and this [[423]] is just the latest. Their bad faith POV pushing and ad homonyms are tiresome to an extreme. As is the fact they never actually seem to read what has been written or by whom. They also seem to have formed their own views of what policies say [[424]] and false accusations (I have no idea what "outrageous attacks" they are talking about.

They are clearly not here except to push an agenda.Slatersteven (talk) 13:49, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Incivility and threats by Snowflake91

Snowflake19 started to make edits on the article UEFA European Championship, without discussion and using heated politics-based argumentation. The user was told to go to the talk page and eventually he replied this, which qualifies as incivility, and then he replied this, which qualifies as a threat ("in 24 hours"). The Replicator (talk) 14:08, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Cry me a river, you have reverted me 4 times without even providing any sources when you was asked to (I provided three highly reliable sources), not to mention that you cross-out my comment at the talk page, talk about being disruptive. And by the way, if you want to make potentially controversial changes its you who should seek consensus at the talk page first, and not the otherwise - remember thats its you who wanted to change something that was established and unchanged for literally 10+ years, so why should others go to the talk page first if you are the one that is making big changes, and then you are actually provided with sources, and you simply ignore them? Very funny, you keep reverting with an edit summary "go to talk page", and then I go to the talk page and you are not really ready to discuss anyway as you are literally like "Im right while you are wrong, go away" even when you are provided with reliable sources, so what on earth do you want to? Its actually you who needs to get blocked, not me. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:20, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Snowflake91 Getting a bit too heated. Keep it civil Snowflake. Furthermore, this looks like a content dispute with both parties already violating WP:3RR. I think the best solution would be to continue the discussion on the article talk page, but with the article WP:FULLY protected. Jerm (talk) 14:46, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

But thats the problem - he is obviously not willing to discuss anything, when I provided him multiple sources, he crossed out my comment and asked for a block instead. Yed, I did violate 3RR, but I was just restoring to the revision (well not entire revision, just that specific table) that was established for so many years and no one had the problem with it, while he tried to force his version without any discussion in the first place. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:53, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Snowflake91 Reverting is obviously not working. That is why I am suggesting the article be fully protected rather than just giving out blocks. Jerm (talk) 14:59, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

IP 87.71.158.72 consistent disruptive editing on Arrowverse crossover articles

This IP 87.71.158.72 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has been consistently making disruptive edits to cast tables on Arrowverse crossover articles (Heroes Join Forces, Invasion! (Arrowverse), Crisis on Earth-X, Elseworlds (Arrowverse), and Crisis on Infinite Earths (Arrowverse)). Here are their edits on Heroes Join Forces, Invasion!, Crisis on Earth-X, Elseworlds, and Crisis on Infinite Earths. A single diff example to show they type of edit (as they are virtually identical across each article), can be seen with this edit. These edits are adding excessive information to the cast table, which is against current consensus and has been constantly reverted by myself and other editors. Editors have warned this IP (as evidenced by the warnings on their talk page) and they have keep making these edits with no indication of trying to discuss why they are trying to make these changes. I previously reported the IP to ANV and they were blocked for 2 weeks, and that has since lifted and they've returned to making the same edits, hence the need in my eyes to make this report. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:34, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Legal threat

This edit summary appears to have a legal threat: "if anybody again edits just to mention "Untouchable" Definitely I will drag him into the court." Notfrompedro (talk) 16:06, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Since the term in question is a pejorative, I have copyedited Bhoi to remove it. I invite editors with knowledge of India's caste system to take a look. This is a very new editor reacting to a perceived insult. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:29, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Its still a legal threat, so they shouos be warned.Slatersteven (talk) 17:32, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

They have already been warned by another editor. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:46, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven, Generally speaking, when we issue a warning we use the term in its ordinary English sense – identifying a problem, and warning that repetition may result in sanctions such as blocking. My understanding of legal threats is that we take a firmer stand — we don't simply warn them not to repeat it we affirmatively require that they either explain themselves if there is any doubt about the intention, but absent an explanation that it's not really a threat, we expect them to remove the threat which is a little stronger than simply a warning.

I appreciate that the editor has been warned, but that warning doesn't include a requirement that the threat be retracted. I think that's required. S Philbrick(Talk) 18:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

But we also should not bite newbies, unless they show they do not get it.Slatersteven (talk) 18:12, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Fuck WP:BITE; threats like this are intended to intimidate people into silence/inaction. If they don't unequivocally retract, they need to be blocked. Simple as that. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^{Jéské Couriano} 20:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Which part of "unless they show they do not get it" means we take no action if they do not obey policy?Slatersteven (talk) 20:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Sphilbrick, it looks like they received a standard templated Twinkle warning. Maybe the template language needs to be rewritten. Personally, I do not use Twinkle. They have made two edits and their grievance has been resolved. I see no need for a block. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Has the legal threat been retracted? WaltCip-(talk) 22:05, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

WaltCip, you could have checked that yourself. The answer is "no" but the newbie hasn't edited in about 24 hours, and their second of two edits contained the threat. Everyone seems to be ignoring that the threat was in response to a pejorative or slur against an ethnic group that was restored repeatedly by uninformed editors. That's why responding appropiately to legal threats requires us to take a look at the underlying dispute. If someone was repeatedly restoring content to Gullah calling those people a bunch of "N-words", then we would correct the problem instead of just blocking a newbie who complained about it forcefully. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 22:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

This was an unambiguous legal threat and clearly meant to intimidate in a content dispute. Not only are we not qualified to deal with legal threats they also fly in the face of our core values of consensus and neutrality by causing intimidation. Furthermore our editors don't deserve to be exposed to that, especially if they are making an uninformed mistake.

For those reasons I have blocked the user until they retract the legal threat. Once they retract the threat and agree not to do this in the future then an unblock is fine.

If another editor is also behaving poorly or simply uninformed then that should be dealt with on its own merits, I see no attempts to communicate with the editor who was reverted about this. I will point out that the threat was not aimed only at the person who made the objectionable edit but to "anyone". HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 23:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

That being said I have made clear to the user that they can be unblocked right away if they retract the threat and agree not to make another. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 00:03, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• Not that he needs external validation, but FWIW I think User:Cullen328 handled this correctly. Sure, block the new user if they do it again after being warned, but blocking a brand new user, with no prior warning, for something said in the heat of the moment, in response to being called "untouchable", when everything has already been resolved, is silly and counterproductive. WP has weird priorities sometimes. What's especially odd with this place is that, if Cullen had blocked, HiBC would have been expected to consult with Cullen before overturning the block. But when Cullen makes it clear that his administrative decision is not to block, HiBC can just over-rule him. Weird. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:43, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Well it is true that declining to take an action is not considered an administrative action. However if you think it is more fair then any admin is welcome to reverse this block if they feel it is appropriate to do so. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 01:19, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Repeated reversals and fringe theories

Goodmorning. The user @Pipsally: has repeately tried to insert sources supporting the Christ myth theory. Since such theory is a fringe theory, I and other editors (@Joshua Jonathan:, @MPants at work: and @Ramos1990:) have reverted their edits. He/She has been repeatedly told to stop inserting new edits on the matter, since a consensus has already been reached. Instead of doing it, she has randomly started to revert all my edits with no apparent reason. The edits have been done to these pages:
Page: Did Jesus Exist? (Ehrman book) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Forged (book) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Necho II (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Merneptah Stele (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

--Karma1998 (talk) 18:45, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

you are conflating two different things here. I have not touched the Christ myth theory edits since consensus was reached. Also it is disingenuous to say I was inserting the edits when I was in fact reverting your WP:BOLDremovals. Regardless that is resolved and I respect consensus there.

my other edits are all explained in the edit summaries, and are to do with you adding WP:SYNTH to articles, particularly citing an authors own website for reviews of his book which is not WP:RS. There is no way this is an WP:ANI issue.

i suggest as well that you don’t both remove content and add something else in the same edits as you have a habit of doing. It makes your edit summaries quite misleading Pipsally (talk) 19:04, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I’d also like to point out that contrary to the claim above the neither @MPants at work: or @Ramos1990:) have reverted my edits. They have made comments in relation to my edits in talk, and I have respected that input. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pipsally (talk • contribs)

Do not try to change the point. You have tried to insert arguments in support of the CMT in the page Did Jesus Exist? (Ehrman book), quoting minor and insignificant scholars. And you have reverted my edits for no reason, since Ehrman's blog is a reliable source (he can't invent reviews from newspapers).--Karma1998 (talk) 19:12, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Restoring something that didn’t get saved here. I’m not changing the point. I have not inserted arguments, I reverted your WP:BOLD edits, but when it became clear consensus supported you I stopped. Your second section is exactly the point, he could invent those (i’m not saying he has!) so you need to provide a reliable source and not the authors selfpublidhed blog.Pipsally (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I most certainly would have reverted your edits, had not Karma1998 beaten me to it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:18, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

ok, and I respect that, but I just clarifying the above statement is not accurate. And again, please note that ones it was clear there is consensus I have not persisted on those edits and have respected the conclusion.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pipsally (talk • contribs)

• The bit about citing Erhman's site for the Salon quote seems disingenuous; Ehrman is a widely respected scholar who faces constant scrutiny from evangelical scholars who take umbrage at his high profile as possible the best known biblical scholar, and his oft-professed agnosticism and adherence to methodological and naturalistic methods and conclusions. The suggestion that he would deliberately misrepresent a quote from Salon like this is rather ridiculous on the face, and the triviality of simply doing a quick google search for that quote (literally two clicks of the mouse) to find the original article which contained it is such that it's very difficult to believe this was a good-faith revert. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

my point is that it is trivial to find the actual sources, and not to rely on an authors self pub. All Karma has to do if he wants this content is to provide the RS and I will note dispute it. Pipsally (talk) 19:35, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

If you agree that finding the source was trivial, then why didn't you find the sources, instead of engaging in an action which you knew would antagonize Karma1998? 19:52, 12 July 2021 (UTC) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:52, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Pipsally:, you have once again reverted an edit on the page Forged (book), despite warning not to do so. @MPants at work: I'm not an administrator, but I think a block here is needed.--Karma1998 (talk) 19:46, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

There is no warning. I reverted it because you have not provided a reliable source. You cannot cite an authors own blog for reviews. Find and cite the review!Pipsally (talk) 19:49, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

This denial seems quite disingenuous, given that this entire ANI discussion serves as a warning that you are editing against consensus. I'm uninvolved, and I can see quite clearly that there is a consensus against your inclusions.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 19:53, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

thank for looking in. Please do review again. Karma1998 has cited my edit regarding the Christ myth theory as his complaint. My edits turned out to be against consensus, and once that was clear I have not pursued them. this was yesterday, and I have not touched since . That’s how we work. My other edits are in relation to his citation of an authors own blog for positive reviews of his material, and that’s what I was trying to explain above.Pipsally (talk) 20:20, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Shibbolethink: he/she has just reversed another time! That's amazingly stubborn.--Karma1998 (talk) 19:55, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Karma1998, has it passed the point of an edit war? If so, report to WP:EWN.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 19:58, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Shibbolethink: I've already done it, and they told me to come here.--Karma1998 (talk) 20:00, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. I largely agree with Karma1998. Pipsally & 2db are obviously POV-pushing in a pro-Christ Myth theory fashion. For example, Pipsally considers that simply stating the contents of Did Jesus Exist? is "OR" [425] (no, explaining what's in the book is not OR). 2db is prominently citing what seems to be a vanity-published book by a random person as if it was an authority on the topic, sticking in a faux-reference to a Christ mythisticist in a "reference" that is really an accusatory footnote to the lede [426]; it's not even clear that Raphael Lataster is particularly prominent within the Christ Myth community. I think that some of this material may be somewhat salvageable (if sourced to prominent Christ myth proponents such as George Albert Wells) but 2db needs to learn to phrase things neutrally and with WP:DUEWEIGHT for what is, like it or not, an academic fringe theory. For example, 2db introduced ridiculous phrasing like "Ehrman admitted that (Did Jesus Exist? is not an academic monograph)." [427] What? Of course it wasn't, it was a book. That's not a scandal or a problem, so why phrase it as if it was something Ehrman was "covering up" until finally forced to admit guilt? See MOS:SAID for why this is problematic, even if the claim wasn't so ludicrous. SnowFire (talk) 20:03, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Snowfire: I agree . This is done, since yesterday. I have not pursued it. There is consensus. I accept it. I have not edited since to restore this Christian myth material, which anyway was a reversion via recent changes of a deletion. Consensus was made clear and I have left alone.Pipsally (talk) 20:19, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. Maybe this can be resolved on talk pages after all. We shouldn't restrict what the book itself says, but better sources are always welcome. SnowFire (talk) 20:44, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Pipsally: Actually you added fringe supporters of the CMT to the page of Ehrman's book.-Karma1998 (talk) 20:52, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

where? Which book? I’m happy to remove finge if I’ve added it in error Pipsally (talk) 20:58, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

The book Did Jesus Exist? (Ehrman book).-Karma1998 (talk) 21:02, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

What on earth are you on about? I’ve removed things from the article that are poorly sourced or unsourced. To my shame I’ve added nothing, and certainly nothing fringe. Please show me the edits you think ar fringe Pipsally (talk) 21:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? You added works and comments from CMT supporter Raphael Lataster, forcing us to remove it.-Karma1998 (talk) 21:37, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Show the edit diffs where I’ve done that please . Also, my only interest in this through recent changes. I know no detail of the topic, I’ve just reverted obvious blanking or removal of content without explanation .

I apologize for my mistake @Pipsally:, it appears that the Lataster reference was added by @2db: and not you. Still, I believe it is not credible to say that Bart Ehrman's blog is not reliable for the reviews on his books.--Karma1998 (talk) 23:05, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Sorry for being so pedantic, but there are certain usages of English that I find so distracting as to prevent me from looking dispassionately at the merits of a case. In the section title you mean "continual", not "continuous". Phil Bridger (talk) 20:21, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I apologize for that @Phil Bridger:, unfortunately English is not my mother language (I'm from Italy). I will correct-Karma1998 (talk) 20:28, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

No. Please don't apologize. I assumed from the perfect English used in the rest of your comments that you were a native speaker. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:34, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger: Well, I studied English for many years, so I know how to handle it hahahaha.-Karma1998 (talk) 20:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Someone repeatedly adding unsourced material to Sheldon Adelson

Four times now, someone has added unsourced information to the Sheldon Adelson article, claiming that Adelson had a son in 1962 by a woman he had a relationship with. The person adding the information claims to be that son.[428] I can find no Reliable Source to confirm any of it. This is not only unsourced, but it has BLP implications (Adelson is not living, but he died recently). The first three times, it was added by an IP claiming to be the son. After the IP was topic banned from the article,[429] a new user called User:BostonCasinoKid appeared and re-added it, also asserting that they are the son. (BTW although they claim in the edit that they are the son, their edit summary said changes were made after verifying biological son's background information.)[430] I don’t know what we should do about this. Ask the person to prove their identity through the usual channels? Or to submit evidence privately? (It would be primary in any case.) Block them both for evading the topic ban? Simply semi-protect the page? I’d appreciate somebody, or the community, taking charge of this case. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:16, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Obviously the same person. I'll block this new account from the article as well, and leave a talk page message. We don't need them to verify their ID or provide private evidence with OTRS; they still can't add this without a reliable source. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:29, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, without RS confirming this is just gossip, doesn't matter who the editor says they are. Try to treat them kindly, in case they are exactly who they claim to be. —valereee (talk) 20:00, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

"Try to treat them kindly"!? What makes you think that comment was needed!? Just because it's me who's contacting them!? I am renowned for being a kind person, and I'll destroy anyone who says differently. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:07, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I'll have to agree that your message was kind. (I'd be afraid to disagree, after all.) Thanks for a simple and straightforward handling of this. I'll continue to monitor the article. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

As the administrator who page blocked the IP, I support the page block of the new account, as this is clearly the same person. If disruption of that article continues, it should be semi-protected. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 22:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Portland Oregon date-changing vandal

• 2601:1C0:5A00:4A50:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))

Someone using Portland IPs for almost a year has been changing music articles to have the wrong dates.[431][432] Their first pattern of disruption was to unnecessarily add days of the week,[433] but this shifted to wrong dates in April.[434] Can we get a rangeblock? Binksternet (talk) 20:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Edit problems for Denniss

I'm trying to resolve problems for Denniss, who does not following neutral point of view, only antisemitic edits for German radio article [435], removing information over edit warring on child's personality (but several) and certain misleading articles on World War II [436], [437], and others that would violates WP:3RR, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:INCIVILITY, and WP:NOR. --2001:4452:48D:E600:44C0:6D32:7E23:BA1D (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• I don't think you're trying to resolve problems; I think you are trying to create them. Your diffs certainly don't indicate antisemitism (I mean, seriously--that's a ridiculous claim), nor do you provide any proof of the other charges. Are you familiar with WP:BOOMERANG? Drmies (talk) 00:36, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Yes you are, I warned to Denniss, if you engaged on antisemitic comments on KenFM. --2001:4452:48D:E600:44C0:6D32:7E23:BA1D (talk) 00:38, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
    • Please proofread before you post. Update: that is marginally better. Also, rangeblocked. Drmies (talk) 00:41, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
    • User:HighInBC, I think you know this guy--I'm going to drop a rangeblock. Thanks--I'm building on your earlier work. Drmies (talk) 00:42, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
      • Yes their particular take on English is a dead giveaway. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 01:11, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Serial Edit Warring on Genocide Denial

The article Genocide Denial is being subjected to serial edit warring over the past few days as editors with varying political agendas are jockeying over the inclusion/exclusion of various countries- Sunderland Renaissance (talk) 00:31, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• And none of them know how to seek the talk page, or search for better, more reliable sources to write better content. Drmies (talk) 00:57, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Repeated false accusations by Firejuggler86

Firejuggler86 is repeating unsupported false claims about me, and I want it to stop. Here are relevant quotations and diffs:

• Firejuggler86 on 3 July:  "you want to change the guideline to broaden the scope to cover historical, sociological, and political areas, so that you can win one particular content dispute"[438]

• Me on 3 July:  "I do not want to broaden the scope of this guideline. Stop making this false accusation."[439]

• Me on 3 July (at User_talk:Firejuggler86):  "I do not hold the views that you claim I hold. You either need to stop attributing opinions to me and other editors, or you need to provide diffs to back up your claims."[440]

• Firejuggler86 on 10 July:  "Your side were the ones that wanted to CHANGE WP:BIOMED by expanding its scope to include matters of history, sociology, and politics."[441]

• Me on 10 July:  "@Firejuggler86, please provide a diff to your accusation that I ever said anything about wanting "to CHANGE WP:BIOMED by expanding its scope to include matters of history, sociology, and politics", or I will take you to ANI for making false accusations against me after being warned to stop it."[442]

(Also:  "My" side?  I didn't !vote in the RFC being referenced, so I wasn't on any "side", but if I had been, I would have !voted the opposite of the way that Firejuggler repeatedly claims.)

Firejuggler86 has been editing since being told to stop it, but has failed to provide any diffs supporting the false claim (an impossibility, because those aren't my views), to strike the false accusations, or even to say that they won't continue to make up inaccurate and unsupported stories about other editors' alleged views whenever they feel like it.

We could prevent future problems by simply blocking the editor, but perhaps a wider audience will be able to come up with a less harsh option that will be equally effective. This is indirectly a COVID-related dispute, and Firejuggler86 might just be copying some of the bad behavior that some other editors have displayed in COVID-related discussions, so if you'd rather that I took this to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, let me know. I'm here because I think it's probably better to process it as a type of of WP:NPA#WHATIS, "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence, usually in the form of diffs and links." WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:06, 13 July 2021 (UTC)