Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Ryulong accuses me of threatening him, WP:CONDUCT issues

• Will someone close this and all subsections please. An arbcom case appears likely so sniping here is not needed.

  (and remove my comment) Johnuniq (talk) 06:34, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Ruylong has offered an apology to Auerbachkeller, so there's nothing more to do here. Gamaliel (talk) 00:10, 16 November 2014 (UTC) Not accepted. [1]

Ryulong made a problematic BLP edit referencing me as chronicled on the Gamergate:Talk page. When I politely requested that he not cite me in the future due to this incident, he accused me in multiple places on WP of threatening him: On my own talk page and on the Gamergate talk page He is now telling Drmies to revoke my confirmed status and to tell me to stay away from him (Ryulong). Ryulong's behavior appears to be a WP:CONDUCT violation on the grounds of civility at the very least. I hope this issue will be addressed. Auerbachkeller (talk) 19:49, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

My edit is only being construed as BLP because Mr. Auerbach was not pleased with how a counterpoint to his piece was presented in the article and The Devil's Advocate explicitly listed me as the offending party who originally wrote the piece. This resulted in Mr. Auerbach leaving me a message to the effect that he wishes to censor me from ever discussing him again and I refused. Mr. Auerbach has been coached by TDA as well as ChrisGualtieri, both of whom have prior content and personal disputes on this project, to punish me for an action whic weeks ago was seen as benign. This is a frivolous request, as is Mr. Auerbach's statement at the ongoing Gamergate arbitration request, as I should have never been singled out by TDA as I have and Chris should not have gone out of his way to sully my name on this project. This should be thrown out and instead TDA and ChrisGualtieri censured for using an off-wiki dispute to urge Mr. Auerbach into doing their dirty work.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:58, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

This account is also incorrect with regard to me. As it is undocumented I will not refute it in detail, other than to say that accusations of "censoring" and of being "coached" are serious matters. Auerbachkeller (talk) 20:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Note that this should probably be moved to Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate/Requests for enforcement. (not commenting otherwise here, either way). --MASEM (t) 20:00, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Everybody stop confusing this man because he has already been told to post something at arbitration by Drmies and then here by Strongjam. Let's just leave this here and let the community at large see it than let it stagnate in a page no one has used other than to get each other banned from the Gamergate pages.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:02, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Apologies. I should have just pointed him to WP:EA to get better advice on how to deal with the dispute and left it at that. — Strongjam (talk) 20:07, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

This has the potential to make the GamerGate article dispute even messier than it already is. User:Ryulong, I think it would be a good idea for you to refrain from dealing with User:Auerbachkeller or his writings from now on. I don't think you are handling your interactions with him well and you are blowing things out of proportion. I also think that Auerbachkeller should be wary about who he takes advice from, as he risks being used as a proxy for editors who are inappropriately attempting to drag him into preexisting conflicts. Gamaliel (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I wrote one thing about his writings in the whole of the Gamergate article and that is not even to say that there are plenty of other editors who had directly cited him that he is not complaining about. I have been unfairly singled out by The Devil's Advocate because I am not a fucking professional writer and I wrote a shit two or three sentences about someone else being critical of one of Mr. Auerbach's articles and he linked to that pisspoor attempt at writing from weeks ago as if I'm to blame for the whole of the article's content. Just like a quote unquote journalist did to me and Tarc on some pro Gamergate news blog that everyone is lapping up. And then Tarc starts arguing with Mr. Auerbach on Twitter, Jimbo yells at Tarc, and then Mr. Auerbach comes onto Wikipedia fully believing someone that I have an agenda against him when I'm just being painted all over the Internet as the big enemy on the Gamergate Wikipedia article. No one can edit the Gamergate page for another week so what does it matter anyway? I should not have to deal with people like Russavia evading his ban on Jimbo's talk page and others who have a personal dispute with me goading someone into getting me banned.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:25, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

All of that sucks. There's no denying that. But I feel that your anger about all of that might be clouding your judgment. Leave others to interact with User:Auerbachkeller. If you feel like he or others are acting inappropriately, post on the GG sanctions page and let uninvolved parties handle it. Gamaliel (talk) 20:28, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I will just add that Ryulong's account of my actions & motivations & influences here, in addition to being undocumented, is incorrect. Auerbachkeller (talk) 20:45, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

You came here and when you made your request several editors who have had personal grudges with me on this site came to your aid immediately. I am being character assassinated all over the internet by a vicious fringe movement and your misinterpretation of my intent three weeks ago is not helping you or I.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:13, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Disengage voluntarily, or it will be enforced. Nick (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Unless you are alleging that Auerbachkeller has something to do with this offsite harassment, then there's no reason you can't drop this matter voluntarily and let other editors engage with Auerbachkeller. Gamaliel (talk) 21:18, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Gamergate controversy is fully protected for another week and all I am doing now is responding to Mr. Auerbach. What has to be disengaged from? I am saying that Mr. Auerbach is being influenced by onsite members who have prior disputes with me as well as offsite harassment. I am not alleging that he is involved with the offsite harassment.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:20, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

You've made that point. Now it is time for you to disengage, let matters cool off, and let others handle it. I understand tempers are high on this article, but if you are unwilling to moderate or disengage, I am considering imposing an WP:IBAN. Gamaliel (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm considering blocking him for all of these unsubstantiated claims made in relation to Auerbachkeller. Ryulong if you would like to present evidence to confirm and back up your claims, of course, that would change the situation, but you know we do not let people make allegations without providing evidence. You are no exception. Nick (talk) 22:06, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I've presented minimal diffs at Gamaliel's user talk that I had intended to post here ([2]), modified all of the statements I had initially made that Mr. Auerbach found questionable ([3], [4]), and left him an apology on his user talk for my actions over the past 12 hours ([5]).—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:10, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

At Drmies advice I am staying off of Ryulong's Talk page. He is not, however, staying off of mine. I will nonetheless not engage with him directly to the best of my ability from this point on. Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:24, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Hmm. Another fine mess. ANI being what it is, it's probably not the best place for this since as a single "incident" it probably does not warrant much admin action. Then again, it is entirely possible that an admin (in this particular case I certainly don't consider myself uninvolved; see the article talk page for my involvement with the Auerbach article) decides to act, citing the general sanctions. Now that we're here anyway, let me add that I think that Ryulong's behavior in this particular case is problematic--not that edit in the article, but the behavior afterward: the "threatening" comment. I wouldn't sanction him for this alone, but I have a feeling that if I take in the totality of Ryulong's actions and comments on the talk page I would feel differently--I have a feeling that if I take that in I will be inclined to think that Ryulong should take a break from the article, that while he has done good work he may perhaps be too enthusiastic in an already overheated situation. Drmies (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong has also made a somewhat dubious appeal to Jimbo Wales where he calls me a patsy. It shouldn't need to be said but I am acting on no one's behalf but my own and with no intent but to protect my reputation. Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:28, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• @Ryulong: why does your name keep popping up here? I see there is already a discussion involving you above, just saying but when your name is being brought here multiple times this is something that should be looked into. My advice would for you to disengage per the admin or find a way somehow to avoid you being dragged here again and again. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:30, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

  There's only a thread above because I reported that guy first and he's very verbose and blunt about what he says. In this case, I may have overreacted to Mr. Auerbach's initial message but when I am subject to so much onsite and offsite harassment over this my current state is to be expected.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:33, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

  Maybe you should take a wikibreak, idk I just have noticed your name a-lot in here it seems is all. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:41, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

  So because other people are indiscriminately angry at me all the time and I'm never censured for it that's a problem?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:43, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong now says I "edited Wikipedia early this morning and this afternoon to get me banned at the behest of all of these other editors." I have *never* advocated for his banning nor for any particular sanction at all, nor am I acting "at the behest" of anyone. That statement is simply not true. Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:42, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Can one impose an interaction ban on these two under the aegis of Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate? Because I am sorely tempted. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 22:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC).

  This was posted by Mr. Auerbach before I further modified my statement and left him a personal apology.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:37, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

  @Lankiveil Yes: "any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project." NE Ent 00:48, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I also want to point out the concurrent discussion on Jimbo's talkpage: User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 177#David Auerbach. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:15, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Note: This matter was concluded with Ryulong's apology and so there's nothing more to do here. Auerbachkeller is within his rights not to accept the apology but there is nothing actionable at this point besides hurt feelings. My closure of this section was undone by an involved editor seeking to stir up more drama. It should be closed again unless there is something productive to be done here. Gamaliel (talk) 02:55, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with your characterization but you are entitled to your opinion. I believe you are more involved than I to close it and probably should wait for an uninvolved admin. Consensus is currently against the topic ban while at the same time there is a call for more DS being applied. --DHeyward (talk) 03:23, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

May I ask whether Gamaliel's suggestion to Ryulong that "it would be a good idea for you to refrain from dealing with User:Auerbachkeller or his writings from now on" has been accepted? (It was, after all, my initial request.) I can't see that it was ever followed up on. Auerbachkeller (talk) 04:14, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Propose Topic ban

• Topic Ban Ryulong from gamergate articles (30 day?, 90 day?, indef?). It appears that his work on that topic area always ends up here. Auerbachkeller would appear to be COI at that article anyway. Ryulong has an issue with Auerbachkeller today, but earlier it was a different editor, tomorrow it will be someone else until the topic ban is eventually placed. Let's cut the drama cord now. There has been repeated calls for more DS and this is a good time to police it. --DHeyward (talk) 00:04, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• I don't believe the apology was accepted as being too little, too late[6]. Topic ban is a remedy, though, so discussion about the incident can be closed. We can discuss the remedy here or GG DS page. I propose here for eyeballs. How many times are we going to ignore topic induced incivility and disruption? --DHeyward (talk) 00:23, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Ryulong always ends up here because there is an inexhaustible supply of throw-away accounts promoting nonsense and making clueless commentary on several gamergate articles. Ryulong may well have cracked under the strain and behaved poorly in this instance (he is also being attacked offwiki), however it seems likely (21:35, 15 November 2014 and 21:37, 15 November 2014) that Ryulong has taken the advice that has strongly been offered to drop the matter raised in this report. There is a strong enforcement system so an ANI-imposed sanction is not needed. Furthermore, a topic ban would be counter productive as knocking out one of the small number of editors who are defending the encyclopedia would be most unhelpful. Johnuniq (talk) 00:32, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Johnuniq. Also DHeyward, if you are going to re-open this thread because Auerbachkeller didn't accept Ryulong's apology, I think you should try to find another reason. All the non-acceptance showed is that David seems to be too upset or too petty to accept a sincere apology. Dave Dial (talk) 00:39, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Whoa: that an apology was offered doesn't mean all harm is undone. One should not topic ban Ryulong for this one single incident, but by the same token we shouldn't not topic ban him in relation to this one single incident. Auerbach's not accepting Ryulong's apology does not negate Ryulong's earlier behavior--and let's remember that, if it hadn't been for some admin editing through protection while seeking consensus on the talk page, that stuff would still be in the article. In other words, berouw komt altijd na de zonde ("regret always follows the sin"?), but the real question here is about the actions (plural) on Ryulong's part that led to all these events: that is what we are asked to judge if a topic ban is to be granted. It's there we can differ. Drmies (talk) 01:04, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
    • I did not base my oppose on the apology, nor it's acceptance. So I don't understand your comment. I do agree that the inability of Ryulong to acknowledge mistakes can be problematic, I do not think that rises to a topic ban in an area that needs editors at the moment. Dave Dial (talk) 01:28, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
  • It was closed 5 minutes after my proposal and it doesn't appear over if one side is continuing on. I can give other reasons related to arbcom pending case but I'd rather not devolve to that level as the close was in good faith. The reopening is in good faith as well. Note that Jimbo as already called for Tarc to not edit for a similar reason [7]. --DHeyward (talk) 01:10, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Ok, but I still think it should be closed, and my oppose is per Johnuniq and other factors having nothing to do with David. Dave Dial (talk) 01:28, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
• He asked for a retraction. I gave a retraction. He asked for an apology. I gave an apology. Just because he does no want to accept that apology shows more of his behavior than anything I could ever do. This is ridiculous. I should not be banned for anything concerning David Auerbach.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:52, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
• I apologize if my inability to accept Ryulong's apology makes me appear "upset" or "petty." Ryulong's immediately preceding comment, however, does not strike me as the words of a genuinely repentant editor, and consequently I am still unable to accept the apology, and I believe its sincerity should be up for debate rather than accepted as a given. Apologies in advance if this response is unwelcome on this page. Auerbachkeller (talk) 01:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auerbachkeller (talk • contribs) 08:15pm EST (UTC)
  • No need to apologise to me, I can understand someone being upset during these interactions. But I encourage you to find out more about Wikipedia and the policies, plus the POV driven masses sent from 8chan concerning the article in question. If not, that's fine too, just a suggestion. Dave Dial (talk) 01:28, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Sorry for forgetting to sign the last comment. I am indeed a neophyte but I had little choice but to pick up policies as quickly as possible when I felt that I was being seriously misrepresented and had little recourse (I certainly couldn't edit the article myself). But as I implied, my inability to accept the apology is not because I'm upset, but because I cannot convince myself of its sincerity. I accepted Tarc's apology for his attacks on me because it did indeed seem sincere. I did not get that sense from reading Ryulong's apology, and his immediate reversion to criticizing me after my polite refusal has only reinforced me in that belief. I remain concerned about Ryulong's future edits as far as they may affect me. I am troubled by Ryulong's statement that "So because other people are indiscriminately angry at me all the time and I'm never censured for it that's a problem?" You are, of course, free to disagree with any of these points. Auerbachkeller (talk) 01:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
      • I gave you a sincere apology and told you the truth about everything that has been affecting me over the past two months after you asked for an apology and you say "sorry no dice". I should be expected to be appalled by your actions here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:50, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
        • If so much has been happening to you there's all the more reason for you to just stay away. I don't understand in the first place why someone would be a Wikipedia editor and a Twitterer at the same time. Drmies (talk) 01:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
          • I don't use Twitter other than to follow some Japanese video game news feeds. I just get hate there because I bothered to respond. I don't go inviting this shit to me on my social media. It targetted me directly.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:59, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
      • Don't worry about the occasional forgotten signature and other bureaucratic stuff. Wikipedia is a pretty loose kind of place where people are not required to offer an apology—our purpose is to build the encyclopedia and any disruption that interferes with that process is stopped (eventually!). People are not required to say they were wrong or otherwise humble themselves because it doesn't contribute much in the long run—what counts is how frequently poor behavior is repeated. The community just wants unhelpful behavior to stop. Ryulong was needlessly aggressive in his responses to you, but you might understand his poor approach if you had experienced the silliness that has been continuous ever since people started trying to use Wikipedia to excuse the harassment described in Gamergate, and to pretend that the article would exist if it really were about the concerns of gamers regarding the ethics of journalists. Ryulong should definitely disengage and not make any further commentary on this topic. Johnuniq (talk) 02:00, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
        • A gamergate is a type of sexually viable ant.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:20, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
      • (edit conflict)Yes, what Johnuniq said. Also, I wasn't talking about your missed sig, I'm more than happy to sign it for you and let you know how to do it yourself(even though you obviously know and are adapting quickly). I was referring to such Wiki policies as citing sources and neutral point of view. A couple of basic pillars of Wikipedia. If anything, it will make it easier for you to understand some things that go on here when referring to Wikipedia in your articles. But again, just a suggestion. Dave Dial (talk) 02:23, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose a topic ban on User:Ryulong from Gamergate, because Ryulong is usually right, and in general because the community cannot deal effectively with editors who polarize the community, and Ryulong, right or wrong, is a polarizing editor on Gamergate and some other issues. This thread, as a request for a topic ban, is a waste of electrons. However, a very strong Warning is in order that Ryulong appears to be too angry to be dealing effectively with Gamergate, and if he doesn't calm down, he may need to be blocked. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:18, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is an involved editor stirring up more drama. Gamaliel (talk) 02:57, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• I respect your oppose. Your aspersions are without merit, however. --DHeyward (talk) 03:26, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. I retain confidence in Ryulong. Carrite (talk) 03:54, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14].--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:02, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  The Devil's Advocate, none of those have anything to do with David Auerbach's writing and everything I wrote is supported by reliable sources. Stop cherrypicking things and presenting them out of context.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:39, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  No, what you wrote in the first two diffs is not supported by the RSes cited. You wrote that Kluwe did not receive harassment despite making inflammatory remarks. The corresponding RSes state that Kluwe made inflammatory remarks, but do not deny Kluwe receiving harassment - they don't talk about it at all. I checked. All four of them. The closest is the Time piece citing Kluwe's claim not to have been doxxed, which is a weaker claim than "wasn't harassed at all". For all we know, doxxing of Kluwe was attempted and unsuccessful. The CNN piece also claims that Wheaton and Kluwe weren't doxxed, but relies on uncited Twitter hearsay for this claim.

  For that matter, as far as I can tell, the RSes in question don't even support the assertion that Day, Wheaton and Kluwe are "all gamers". The position that Kluwe is a "gamer", in particular, seems at odds with the anti-gamer remarks he made that are the point of this discussion in the first place. Keep in mind here that we are specifically referring to video games here; fans of tabletop board games (which certainly do include Day and Wheaton) aren't normally labelled thus.

  The Vice opinion piece is obviously biased, comes from a source that should not be considered reliable, and takes a POV on the question of "fair use" which was not balanced in any way, and misrepresents Nazer's viewpoint per his own Twitter (while also glossing over what seems to me like a joke at Vice's expense). Further, the claim that archive.today "strips advertisements from the archived web page" is trivially demonstrated to be a lie. I'm sure you're about to point to WP:VNT - let me quickly rebut that while it may not be required that something be proven true to be included, it is not reasonable to include, in Wikipedia's voice, something which is proven to be false.

  In the next edit, you removed a claim that had three proper sources, because you felt that it was "not a major point of contention" in two of them (an absurd objection in an article with over a hundred citations, most of which are used for a single-sentence observation out of perhaps thousands of words) and that the third - Reason.com - is not reliable. WP's own article on Reason notes in the lede that "The magazine has a circulation of around 70,000[2] and was named one of the 50 best magazines in 2003 and 2004 by the Chicago Tribune.[3][4]", and has no Controversy section, so I simply can't fathom your objection here.

  The "Dashgate" bit is absurd because it's sourced by a relative no-name "death and taxes magazine" that is representing an offer of charitable donation, clearly presented as a rhetorical tactic (the expectation being that the offer would be declined, so as to confirm someone else's viewpoint) as a "bribe". This is ignorant of the context and deliberately spun to create an impression of hypocrisy WRT ethical standards where none exists. It also draws a connection between two Twitter conversations that appear to be completely unrelated if you actually follow the links. It also ignores the context in the second conversation whereby Dash (who was represented as "having literally nothing to do with the situation whatsoever") claimed without evidence that Cernovich "supports bullying women out of gaming" and Cernovich replied by noting the matching donation he had already made to an anti-bullying charity. Including this bit is thus very, very clearly pushing a POV.

  The bit from Fast Company is, quite simply, not notable. Why should anyone care about the colour scheme of Vivian James' sweater?

  74.12.93.242 (talk) 05:21, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

  [15] [16] [17] [18].--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 07:27, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  Still all entirely unrelated to Auerbach. What are you trying to prove exactly, TDA? If anything, I can show that you are clearly doing all of this because it's pro/anti rather than any actual issues with the article. [19]. Heck, you completely go off the wall here [20]. And if we're pulling unrelated diffs out of our collective hats, I can show that you were intentionally toeing the line of BLP in this comment you left on the Brianna Wu article two weeks ago.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:34, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  [21] [22] [23] [24] [25].--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:19, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  TDA, why are you posting all these diffs? Everything I added in these is supported by reliable sources. Just because you disagree doesn't mean it's evidence I should be topic banned. This is gettin ridiculous. Can someone close all this off now?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:09, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  [26] [27] [28] [29] [30].--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:52, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  All TDA is doing here is picking out every edit I've made to the article that he disagrees with rather than edits that have done anything wrong.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:35, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38].--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 02:29, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Presenting naked diffs without discussion is not a viable approach to resolving disputes. aprock (talk) 18:12, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Many of these diffs speak for themselves.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:05, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose A topic ban isn't warranted in my opinion because Ryulong's edits have been balancing in the article, and ANI is a ridiculous platform to vote (indeed, vote) on topic bans. How about admins actually enforce the WP:GS/GG sanction? Clearly Ryulong's incivil behauvior has violated the "expected standards of conduct" mentioned in the sanctions, even if they do not warrant a topic ban. --Pudeo' 06:16, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Johnuniq. MarnetteD|Talk 16:01, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per everyone above - 9 times outta 10 Ryulong's only brought here by newly created accounts whom have nothing better to do than cause drama. –Davey2010 • (talk) 16:12, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Note: 8 out of 9 times Ryulong seeks the 1 edit accounts out, because they make it their business to be in SPI. If you were getting a 10% valid complaint return, providing ten times as many irrelevant rubbish may be a good way of drowning yourself out of scrutiny. If you got a 10% complaint rate on eBay, they'd ban you from the site. ~ R.T.G 19:54, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

RTG is making statements that he does not know anything about still. Why hasn't he been interaction banned from me yet?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:16, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose and Close Oppose and Boomerang There appears to be a solid consensus not to impose a topic ban here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:21, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• Per below I have amended my opinion as Auerbachkeller is making this disruptive. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:41, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Apologies for intruding once again, but since Dave Dial forgot this suggestion of Gamaliel's, I wanted to repost it here so it doesn't get lost:

This has the potential to make the GamerGate article dispute even messier than it already is. User:Ryulong, I think it would be a good idea for you to refrain from dealing with User:Auerbachkeller or his writings from now on. I don't think you are handling your interactions with him well and you are blowing things out of proportion. I also think that Auerbachkeller should be wary about who he takes advice from, as he risks being used as a proxy for editors who are inappropriately attempting to drag him into preexisting conflicts. Gamaliel (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:19, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong has continued to discuss the conflict today on Jimbo Wales' page, where he now claims I started the conflict and repeats a false claim that I only know his name via The Devil's Advocate. In truth, I learned Ryulong's name by searching diffs via Wikiblame on the edit in question. Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:35, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I am allowed to talk to Jimbo about this. I have been singled out unfairly and despite what you think I have no issue with you. I'm sorry you felt that my writing was incorrect but that's not something that requires a ban or voluntary anything.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:16, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong is now doing a Reddit AMA in which he is giving false accounts of what transpired between myself, him, Jimbo Wales, and others. Yes, I realize this is off-WP, but in my opinion it bears rather strongly on the matter at hand. Auerbachkeller (talk) 07:08, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose and WP:BOOMERANG since Auerbachkeller is unwilling to put down the stick, the only sensable solution is to strongly warn Auer that the next time they try to bring this specific complaint they will be dealt with less gentleness. Auer's importing off offsite complaints in addition to shoveling any manure on Ryulong demonstrates the prime behavior of this "movement" to burn down established names in favor of their jettionsable pseudonyms. Hasteur (talk) 22:29, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Oppose and Boomerang: the proposal was made in bad faith in order to promote one side of a content dispute. This should have been nipped in the bud, but as it has gone on this long, best to sanction the proposer with a WikiTrout. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose and trouterang: mostly I just wanted to say "trouterang", but seriously I think I've seen editors come from the Gamergate area to propose topic bans for Ruylong three separate times since last Thursday (I'll find diffs if you want) and none have had much of any basis in policy or snowball's chance in hell of being accepted. Proposing the same thing over and over again is disruptive, and there's clearly no appetite for using admin tools to throw gas on this fire attempt to solve this dispute. It looks like it's already being discussed at Arbcom. Ivanvector (talk) 22:44, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Only on the basis that this specific thread is not about the topic but about user interactions. Retartist (talk) 03:10, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Oppose boomerang This is ridiculous Loganmac (talk) 03:22, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. Ryulong appears a great deal at ANI and his interactions with people often leave a lot to be desired. However, on the flipside of the coin, the fact that he hasn't lost his mind after all the crap the internet has thrown at him is a credit to his resilience and commitment to the project. It's a very rare day indeed when Ryulong has been hauled out for poor content injection. People will invariably disagree about what content he may put in but I highly doubt that, if we all stood back a bit, the quality of his content could be seriously challenged. This is not to say that a prolific content contributor should get a free card, but context is everything. Blackmane (talk) 23:09, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Okay, now what?

I'll be honest with everyone here. I have no idea what to do at this point. I thought we were close to having this issue resolved with Ryulong's apology. He deserves kudos for doing that regardless of whether or not it was accepted, and I think Auerbachkeller is perfectly within his rights not to accept it, but that should have been the end of it. But instead of the apology ending this issue, other parties attempted to use this dispute to topic ban Ryulong. In my opinion, that was an inappropriate attempt to hijack the issue with something that should have been handled separately and inflamed an issue that seemed to be nearing resolution. It's pretty clear Ryulong is not going to be topic banned, and now the two main parties are still sniping at complaining about each other and everyone is still annoyed. Facepalm. Gamaliel (talk) 07:24, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Can you tell me where I have been sniping at Ryulong? I have had no contact with him since yesterday. Auerbachkeller (talk) 07:25, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

You just posted above complaining about him. I will change my phrasing, I really don't care. The essential point is that you are both unhappy and I think third parties are trying to fan the flames here. Gamaliel (talk) 07:30, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I am unhappy that Ryulong is continuing to make false statements about me on and off WP after his supposed apology. Yes. Auerbachkeller (talk) 07:34, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

"It's pretty clear Ryulong is not going to be topic banned." That's the problem: to a basically outside observer, he's the cause of a lot of the problems in the article, and it would be much better off if he were. Unfortunately, the wagons appear to have been circled around him and he won't be, so yeah, now what? If we can't get consensus to topic ban a disruptive editor from an article, what's left? Thargor Orlando (talk) 12:19, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:General_sanctions/Gamergate/Requests_for_enforcement. It was inappropriate for editors to hijack a sensitive situation to attempt to impose a topic ban, but concerned editors can request enforcement of general sanctions at any time. Gamaliel (talk) 16:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• Why would we bother? As expected, the sanctions appear to be only for those perceived to be on one side of the debate. Thargor Orlando (talk) 23:17, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not sure how I'm supposed to answer this. I'll use the sanctions if somebody gives me a reason to. But all I see here are a complaint that has been resolved with an apology and partisans trying to get the other side and only the other side banned. Gamaliel (talk) 00:28, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

• The reasons have been detailed for some time. Why they haven't been used, I don't know. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:46, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

• Given the contentious nature of the topic, anyone who edits it heavily is going to attract significant blowback; it's unrealistic to expect any resolution to enjoy universal acceptance under those circumstances. But I think it's clear that there's a broad consensus here that Ryulong has acted appropriately overall -- like I mentioned on the article's talk page, I think the root of this particular issue stemmed not from anything Ryulong did but from another editor who accidentally changed the meaning of Ryulong's paraphrase while blindly applying WP:SAY, which accidentally changed its meaning from "Auerbach's article implied this" (which was a reasonable paraphrase of what the article being referenced was saying about him, even if Auerbach clearly disagrees with that article) to "Auerbach literally said this" (which obviously isn't.) Overall, though, this article needs more attention from users who understand our policies; I don't see how it would benefit from driving Ryulong away from it. Rather, if people are concerned, then what the article really needs is more attention from additional experienced editors so Ryulong isn't taking all the heat over editing it himself and so he doesn't become a flashpoint for everyone who has a concern with how it's currently written. --Aquillion (talk) 15:08, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• I don't think he's acted appropriately at all. Nor do I think his paraphrasing (or your "implied" version) was reasonable. This topic is under general sanctions. There have been a number of topic bans. Jimbo has asked Ryulong multiple times not to edit the article. Policies are enforced by admins using general sanctions and the drama keeps going because no one will step up and topic ban them and use DS to calm the waters. It doesn't have to be permanent but a handful of WP:OWN editors need to take a break (either on their own or by general sanctions). Two have been called out by Jimbo. A few are being attacked off-wiki and have been drawn in to the point where it's nearly WP:EXTERNALREL if not past that point. They need a break if only to stop the external BS that keeps being brought here. No article should be identified with individual editors and unfortunately, these articles are. This is not a hard decision and 30 or 60 day TBAN will go a long way to defocus the external eyes from specific editors. --DHeyward (talk) 15:46, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• It's hard to see how this won't be interpreted as punishment for offsite harassment, and worse, encouraging offsite harassment because it gives them the results they want. Honestly, there's about six editors on either side that I think should be forced to take a break, but I don't know how to make that sort of sanction stick and how to do it without blowing the whole thing up. The relatively minor and clear cut sanctions that have been imposed so far, for much worse behavior and for blatant repeated BLP violations, have already been dragged before ArbCom by partisans claiming that they are "tyrannical behavior". Gamaliel (talk) 16:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• Okay the "clear cut" and "much worse" parts can be debated, but "relatively minor" is just absurd. Are three month, one year, or indefinite topic bans considered "minor" these days?--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:35, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• You're absolutely right, that was extremely poor wording on my part and I have struck that phrase. I was trying to convey that the issues were not difficult to sort out for admins compared to others, not that the sanctions themselves were minor. Gamaliel (talk) 20:01, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• As I understand it, his paraphrasing was discussed on the talk page, and nobody objected to it particularly at the time (indeed, based on the comment when he first added it, he was careful to get feedback from other people before putting it in.) It only attracted attention after Auerbach objected (responding to the version with Halfhat's accidental WP:SAY edits, not to the version Ryulong wrote.) Either way, disagreeing with the precise wording of someone's paraphrase wouldn't blow up to this extent if it weren't for the environment of constant offsite pressure you describe; none of the things people are accusing Ryulong of would even be comment-worthy in a normal situation. Saying that off-wiki attacks are a reason he should pull back is likewise missing the point -- none of the off-wiki attacks really have anything to do with Ryulong or any of the other editors they're targeting; the people doing the targeting literally just made a list of the most prolific editors that they disagreed with and went after them. If Ryulong stepped back, the harassment would move down the list to the next-most-prolific editor, and so on until the article was purged of everyone perceived as unfriendly to their views. Which leads me to the most important point: In an environment like this, where anyone who steps up to edit the article is likely to be subject to fairly vicious attacks from some quarter or another, we absolutely need people who are willing to step up to the plate regardless. Ryulong should, for the most part, be commended for enduring that kind of pressure, not criticized for being a target of offsite harassment; just a look over the talk page shows that they have constantly engaged in good-faith discussions with people who have many different views, and that the article has been improved as a result. We need more people willing to participate in that sort of fairly grueling discussion over contentious topics like this. The best solution, of course, to the situation is for the article to get more experienced editors keeping their eyes on it and chipping in, not to drive away the few people who have been willing to endure the harassment and anger surrounding it until now in an effort to edit constructively... but given how Ryulong has been treated for his work there, it's not hard to see why that isn't happening. --Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• "none of the things people are accusing Ryulong of would even be comment-worthy in a normal situation." That's absurd. Why, just the other day I saw him get away with 15RR. There have been hundreds of citations of issues with his behaviour WRT the article by now. Your claims about "targeting" are also unsubstantiated and, in my view, meritless. Offsite discussion I've witnessed has centered on Ryulong, yes - but only because he's been noted as annoying huge numbers of people across a wide spectrum of articles and communities, documented all over the Internet, over the course of a solid 8 years. When I did my own research, for example, I found a claim that he once leveled a /16 IP ban. But as regards the Gamergate article, most discussion explicitly already names three or four other editors as problematic, and accuses them of WP:TAGTEAM either explicitly or in more community-specific phrasing. 74.12.93.242 (talk) 05:53, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

My question: given that Ryulong is continuing to misrepresent me and unable to give a factually correct account of recent events, given that his behavior shows little improvement from before his "apology," and given that he is by his own admission a poor and unclear writer, how am I to think that he will represent me or my writings at all accurately in the future? Auerbachkeller (talk) 19:54, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

You shouldn't worry about this at all; if anyone misrepresents your writings on Wikipedia, someone else will correct them. It’s precisely the same situation as you would face if your book were reviewed in, say, TLS, by someone whom you think dislikes you and who, in any case, doesn't adore your book. As you doubtless know, attempting to address this directly is known as an Author’s Big Mistake. That's why people are urging you to drop the stick and back away. You've received more than you could reasonably have expected here; let it go. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:40, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I would remove the post with the Reddit AMA link myself but don't know if that is allowed. Consider that entire post rescinded nonetheless. Auerbachkeller (talk) 00:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

"If off wiki dealings are so inconsequential, I fail to see the fuss over 8chan or KotakuInAction" grumbled DSA510. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:54, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

There is indeed a massive double standard there, as I noted in my statement to Arbcom. 74.12.93.242 (talk) 05:55, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

A Background Note

Yesterday, I came across a thread (I believe at 8chan) that discussed the given name, city of residence, religion, and sexual orientation of the editor whose topic ban we were discussing above. I'm not sure this report presents significant information, or whether that discussion is already known. And I have no idea at all whether the assertions made there were accurate, facetious, or (for all I know) common knowledge in the community. I’m not even certain whether mentioning the existence of such discussions is appropriate or helpful. I made no particular note at the time, and only later realized that some editors here might wish to know this. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:32, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

But it seems to me that this sort of thing ought to be taken into account. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:32, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Check your net history for any threads you viewed, and substitute the first number in the URL into this link http://8archive.moe/gg/thread/number/ I'd actually love to see evidence of this, rather than accusation. 67.188.142.154 (talk) 18:45, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, I've got the thread. But of course, simply posting it here would be wrong, would it not? Especially at the prompting of an IP editor? If any admin would like to get in touch by phone, email, or on my user page, I'm right here in my office. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

@MarkBernstein:, how much bad behavior should we excuse because of off-site stress? At what point are we allowed to say enough is enough? Thargor Orlando (talk) 00:58, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

We don't doxx or out people. It shouldn't matter who an editor is IRL unless they are sock puppet or paid editor -- and even then, this isn't the place. email arbcom. It's time for an editor to take a step back if the profile of the editor or wikipedia is higher than the article. --DHeyward (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

@DHeyward: let me get this straight. An outspoken editor is subjected to antisemitic and homophobic derision (and perhaps worse) off-wiki. Is that of no conceivable interest to ANI? An IP editor suggests I'm mistaken or lying; I take time to hunt down the urls and answer that I have them if anyone needs them. This is a reason to urge the person under attack to take a wikibreak? And what have I done wrong? MarkBernstein (talk) 01:14, 20 November 2014 (UTC).

I know at least one editor who has been doxxed for GamerGate on site. Now, would you be equally concerned on who it was if I didn't let up info about their flag of colors? I also find it concerning that you've not even mentioned it. (If you did se it) Tutelary (talk) 20:40, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. The actions of editors off-wiki are not relevant to the discussion, but the actions of non-editors are?

Also, since you mention 8chan and "antisemitic derision": that in itself is reason to suspect that it's just antisemitic trolls going on about antisemitism, rather than anyone seriously thinking they actually have any evidence about anyone's religious beliefs. That is, after all, part of the -chan "reputation" that's the entire reason anyone in the discussion cares about the -chans in the first place.

As for "This is a reason to urge the person under attack to take a wikibreak?" No, any such urging is obviously completely unrelated. I really don't understand how you managed to come up with that bit of logic to attribute to others. DHeyward's argument was in favour of stepping back because of the editor's "profile", not because of the effects of negative attention drawn by that profile. And nobody said you did anything wrong. 74.12.93.242 (talk) 20:05, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

@MarkBernstein: Let me get this straight for you: I have no idea what you are talking about and quite frankly don't want to know. Outing/doxxing people on ANI or anywhere is not allowed. email ArbCom. That's not hard to understand why the Streisand effect is a bad thing. Also don't bring off-wiki drama here. It doesn't help. --DHeyward (talk) 20:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

@DHeyward: I'm happy to email details to anyone: please point me to the pertinent policy or email address or wherever such reports should go. Or call me at the office -- I'm easy to find. Thanks for your helpful advice about what I shouldn’t do here; it seemed to me (naive fellow that I am) that it might interest administrators to know what information the opponents of Ryulong are spreading off-wiki, as this might be helpful in understanding the context. But of course, if the context never matters, that’s my mistake. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:04, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

@MarkBernstein: To send ArbCom sensitive information, see User:Arbitration Committee. Email is basically arbcom-llists.wikimedia.org. --DHeyward (talk) 22:21, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Legal threats by DungeonSiegeAddict510

Here DSA threatened legal action [39] over alleged threats offsite. I've previously notified his constant habit of soapboxing and WP:FORUM here [40]

• [41] Soapboxing about Gawker media and a commentator, misrepresenting their position as "20k+ white males are doing it purely for "misogyny""
• [42] Soapboxing on the arbcom case, promotes conspiracy theories, referred to Gawker as "encouraging domestic abuse under the guise of "feminism" or whatever" and their authors as "sick bullies on their payroll". Dramatically exceed the word limit despite admin notice .
• [43] Soapboxing on the Arbcom case, claiming that Conservapedia and Encyclopedia Dramatica are more neutral than the WP article
• [44] Soapboxing on Gamergate discussion page, equating feminism with fearmongering against men ""All men are rapists" "Kill all men" "Die cis scum""
• [45] Making nonsensical proposals on talk pages eg, using unsourced images from the internet [46]
• [47] Violates WP:CIVIL, referred to User:Tarc "It's only because your No True Scotsman BS"
• [48] Again, soapboxing, referring to a source as "trite from a known troll".
• [49] On RS noticeboard, claimed that all Gawker sources should be blacklisted, and that they're nothing but clickbait.
• [50] Soapboxing about OpSkynet, refers to Gawker and GG critics as promoting an echo chamber and censorship
• [51] Reposted BLP violating material on his talk page

• [52] Warned about sig policy violations
• [53] Warned by uninvolved admin for edit warring
• [54] Indirectly notified for violating WP:FORUM

He was cautioned by the closing admins, yet his behavior continues [55][56][57][58], and his battlefield mentality in pushing a pro-Gamergate POV is completely unconstructive.--137.111.13.200 (talk) 04:26, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

"Expect legal action" is a blatant legal threat. Regardless of what side anyone is on, that is not allowed. The user must be blocked until, or if, he recants and disavows the legal threat. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:32, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Because of the pending arbitration request I'm not going to respond to the context of this specific user or comment on his or her overall pattern of editng. Nonetheless, I must emphasize that Baseball Bugs' knee-jerk reaction is a far too simplistic analysis and must be rejected. The editor here is alleging that he was threatened on IRC with being "SWATTED" in retaliation for his editing. This refers to the dangerous practice, constituting a serious crime, in which one calls in a false police report against a targeted individual, claiming the existence of a life-threatening emergency at his or her residence. The intended result is to cause the residence to be invaded by a SWAT team of armed police officers. Again, obviously I have no way of knowing whether such a threat actually was made, or if so in what context, but if this actually occurred in a serious context it would be entirely appropriate, if not essential, to report it to law enforcement and doing so could not reasonably be considered to violate Wikipedia policy in any fashion. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:41, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

"No legal threats" is a bright line that cannot be crossed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:02, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

So if you credibly threaten to shoot me and I call the police, I should be blocked? That's absurd, and if that's going to be the quality of your input on this noticeboard then you shouldn't be allowed to post on it. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:05, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree completely with Newyorkbrad here. I have no sympathy, personally, with Gamergate, and this editor may have behaved unreasonably. But discussing the deep consequences of off-Wikipedia threats of "swatting" does not violate our ban on legal threats regarding Wikipedia editing. "Swatting", to the extent it actually exists, is an extremely grave form of online harassment that results in significant risk of severe legal problems, destruction of property, personal injury, and even loss of life. This is not an online game. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I fixed it. Also that IP has a vetted interest in me. Go away. --DSA510 Pls No H8 05:09, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

If someone's being seriously physically threatened, they should go to the police for help, not Wikipedia. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:08, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

You seriously think i haven't? --DSA510 Pls No H8 22:55, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

also let it be known I am not " pro-gg". I'm a former anti turned neutral. --DSA510 Pls No H8 05:18, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, and they are forum shopping since the arbitration enforcement request has gone with no action, and are presenting in effect that same amount of diffs, and took the diff of the supposed 'legal threat' out of its necessary context. I'm gonna just say that this IP seems to either be a heavy troll, a dedicated sock master, or someone's bad hand, good hand sock. They also seem to have a vendetta against Dungeon for some odd reason...I wonder if the swatting threats also have some importance in this. Oh, and why do sides matter in this? Does someone who's 'Anti GG' get more leniance in policy or guidelines than 'Pro GG'? They shouldn't, but in this, this is in effect an anonymous IP user only here to stir the pot of drama and to forum shop for no reason at all. Oh and even seeing it in its proper context is iffy with me, but we should go with the spirit of the policy for WP:NLT: A chilling effect. If it turns out that some member of Wiki is literally sending swatting threats to Dungeon--a waste of SWAT teams' money and their ability to respond to actual emergency requests, I'd hope they get their comeuppance. I also don't see within the spirit of the policy of Dungeon breaking such. Tutelary (talk) 05:23, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Let's at least give a full sentence worth of context, shall we?

Anyways, I've already reported that little farce, however, if I find that it was condoned by a member of this wiki, expect legal action.

That's clearly a conditional statement. No party was identified as a potential target. I don't see how this can credibly be called a legal threat. Am I not allowed to say, for example, "any WP editor who breaches a signed contract with me in real life should expect legal action"?

As for the other diffs you've supplied, I don't see how any of them are relevant. This comes across to me like an attempt to just throw a bunch of grievances against the wall and see if anything sticks. Further, you seem to be misrepresenting at least some of them. DSA510 did not, for example, propose to "use unsourced images from the internet"; he used an unsourced image from the internet, informally, as justification for a separate proposal to remove material from the article. 74.12.93.242 (talk) 19:52, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

so shall we boomerang the IP because of the WikiHounding? Imho this was a blatant attempt at forumshopping after the IP didn't archive his desired result at the enforcement page. I fear this will not be the last of this Avono (talk) 12:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

You mean the other IP, right? x.x 74.12.93.242 (talk) 17:58, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, I noticed DSA's "legal threat" the other day myself, and thought it was too mild to warrant any sort of action. Besides, if it were to be interpreted as a legal threat, he made it in an Arbcom case request, possibly the most foolish place a user could make a block-worthy comment. If it was actionable, someone would have by now. As for the IP, remind them that asking the other parent is disruptive, and let's move on. Ivanvector (talk) 18:09, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• Note new complaint against DSA at [[59]] for overnight WP:FORUM and WP:SOAPBOX in defense of Gamergate (including comparisons of opposing editors to Holocaust denial and Birtherism). Note also ?psuedo?-sympathy offered to Ryulong regarding his doxxing [[60]] [[61]]. MarkBernstein (talk) 14:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• Mooted (I believe) by 90-day topic ban at discretionary sanctions. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:52, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Electronic cigarette

User:AlbinoFerret

This user has more or less become a single purpose account. There editing has become not very produce such as:

• The WHO is to health what the UN is to government, useless.
• And we all [k]now that you Qack, are the master of ridiculous.
• They have also been involved in a fair bit of WP:CANVASSING. For example he recently put these notes on a couple of users talk pages requesting their participation [62] and [63] and others. They earlier requested the support of one of these users after having made some controversial changes [64]

Does this rise to the level of a temporary topic ban? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:09, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me? Cherry-picked quotes? And a complaint about canvassing relating to a case where you were remanded for inappropriate notification[65]? This seems more like a play to remove editors that you disagree with, than a true complaint, sorry. --Kim D. Petersen 16:31, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

First of all, let me mention that he requested mere participation not support (except in the last one where he added his own opinion). Doc James, you've been warned for 3RR along with Ferret, I believe this is just not enough for a TBAN. Doc, you're in it too. I believe you all should quit this battleground mentality. A self-imposed TBAN will go a long way. Just my two cents. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 18:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I'm not sure that what is described here is canvassing. AlbinoFerret neutrally notified seven different editors, each of whom had previously edited the page or engaged in Talk discussions and had expressed different views, of an RFC occurring on the page: the two above plus [66][67][68][69][70] This appears to be allowed according to WP:CANVASSING. I don't understand the purpose of this report, especially given that Doc James has already engaged in edit-warring with AlbinoFerret on this article. Ca2james (talk) 20:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

In the very beginning AlbinoFerret only notified the two editors who have the same POV as he does.[71][72] After editors commented AlbinoFerret was canvassing then AlbinoFerret notified the other editors. Another editor stated "Now that I read the discussion, it looks like inappropriate canvassing."[73] The editor was referring to this this edit. QuackGuru (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

There was a 10 hour difference between when the first two editors were notified and the other five were notified. Does that qualify as canvassing? I wouldn't think so but perhaps I'm wrong. If the post on the village pump is considered canvassing (is it? I don't know), then bringing it up now, a week later, seems a little late. Ca2james (talk) 21:48, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussions were long that day and I needed some sleep, there is no time limit on when editors need to be notified by, I got up and notified others. But even if I only notified the two editors you point out, they are active on the article and had both edited the article. Informing them of the RFC, and all I did was ask them to look at the RFC, is allowed. AlbinoFerret (talk)

I will address all these false accusations.

• The so called canvasing was going back a week or so in history and notifying every editor of the article that wasnt an IP of a rfc. Including ones I knew would probably disagree with my position like Yobol.
• #85 is out of sequence and happened the night before the rfc was made, all I ws doing was asking another editor to look at the edits I had done to see if a NPOV tag/banner she had placed could be removed. This distorting of the timeline to suggest something wrong is intentional. It has been pointed out the Doc James before. As such it, in my opinion the retaliation is a continuation of the war Doc James was warned to stop but has not. These accusations were addressed in the report on Doc James linked to here. I was warned for edit warring, resuscitating them here is a desperate ploy.
• My opinion of the WHO (World Health Organization) is just that my opinion, and I have a right to it. The WHO is treated like some kind of God on the article. While he has me saying my opinion of the WHO on a talk page, he doesnt have diff's of me removing statements of the WHO from the article.
• The third was a sarcastic response to a well known edit warrior QuackGuru with a long ban list history calling the additions of another editor ridiculous.

This is just retaliation for bringing a charge of being involved in an edit war on Doc James. Perhaps its time for a boomerang. AlbinoFerret (talk) 19:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I still think the two tags are unnecessary. You disagree? You restored the tag of shame to the lede without explaining what is wrong with the lede. Please explain what is wrong with the lede or remove the tag from the lede. QuackGuru (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

That tag was placed by Kim, you removed it with an open RFC on it, that is still open. I replaced it because it is the subject of an open RFC. AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:53, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

You haven't shown what is the issue with the lede and yet you want to keep it in the lede? QuackGuru (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

It would be wiser to keep content related stuff to the article talk page. --Kim D. Petersen 21:03, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes it appears that a few editors want to exclude the position of the World Health Organization and a review article published in Circulation (journal), one of medicines most respected journals. They instead wish to replace these with the position of a single author review published in a 1 year old journal with an impact factor of zero.[74] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for showing your true motivation, a conflict over content, and silencing those that disagree with you. The boomerang should hit hard AlbinoFerret (talk) 22:37, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I am sure it will. My motivation is to accurately reflect the best available sources. Personal attacks are unfortunately becoming more common [75] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you proved personal attacks are becoming common by coming here. AlbinoFerret (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry Doc, but do you really think that fighting over content issues is appropriate for AN/I? Noone - None - Zip - Nada persons want to "exclude the position of the World Health Organization". The issue over a particular conference report from the WHO is significantly more complex than should be dragged out here, and certaintly not by misrepresenting peoples views. --Kim D. Petersen 23:16, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

While we have this comment The WHO is to health what the UN is to government, useless, which sounds like a desire to exclude the WHOs position IMO. If some come to the discussion with this perspective it makes it difficult to edit health related content. And than we have the personal insults. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:18, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yep, that sarcastic comment, at a person who made a negative comment on another editors edits using the same word. Who has been pointed out a few times for disruptive editing of the article #1 #2. Where can we find the entry on this page from you for QuackGuru who shares your point of view? Nobody has tried to remove the WHO from the article. There is a report they commissioned, that is used 36 times, its use needs to be scaled back, but its used more and more.AlbinoFerret (talk) 23:57, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Let's note one thing. Doc, you've accused him of being an SPA, which I believe he is not. But the fact that he's made 786 (take away or give a few, I used Ctrl+F on his contribs) edits to E-cigarette related stuff is disturbing. And unless, he's been factually incorrect, has failed to maintain a NPOV or has some kind of a COI, there's really no problem if this is a SPA. Doc, you're certainly involved and the fact that you've not taken any actions is an excellent thing (in fact, if you felt you've been wronged and you came to ANI for that, it was a perfectly fine decision). Note to all: Please refrain from making personal attacks. It can be grounds for harassment. It's also time to quit all of your battleground mentality. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 13:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I just want to comment on the number of edits. I rarely make single edits and leave. A majority of the time typo's, extra spaces, justification problems, and syntax errors pop up because the wysiwyg editor doesnt work quite right on my distribution so I edit source most of the time. I will add a word because it doesnt read right, or after reading the paragraph move the addition to group it. It usually takes about 5 or more edits on something before I'm done, even on talk pages. If you divide that number by 4 or 5 its not that bad. While its still over 100 it isnt that bad on an article that is constantly changing. AlbinoFerret 17:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

• Neutral on topic ban (for now). Weak support for topic ban, definite warning needed and maybe X hours block for hounding to force them to take a break for a bit and come back with a clear head. A topic ban would alleviate some issues at the page, but the behavior issues mostly seem to stem from a misunderstanding of NPOV that is causing disruption at the page. WP:RSN and WP:NPOVN could be helpful for this user, but I'm not sure that will solve the problem either. I've been watching the talk page from afar, and I will admit that there are issues that need to be resolved there, but I really can't put my finger on one single thing that's the main issue we can tie everything together with. Doc James, just my take on the points you listed:

1. I do think AlbinoFerret's comments on the WHO being treated as god-like appear problematic. This could be a misunderstanding of WP:MEDRS with the degree of weight (usually quite a bit) we give statements from respected scientific organizations and WP:IDHT behavior to a degree. Not really actionable by itself though.
2. For personal attacks, even sarcastic statements should not be used in spiny topics because they will rarely be taken as sarcastic. If there are many attacks though, then there would be something to consider for action there. AlbinoFerret definitely appears to have a spiny attitude in some cases after skimming over the talk page. I'm not sure the case has been made for personal attacks with just one diff though (feel free to provide more diffs if I missed a lot going through that mess).
3. I can see how you are looking at canvassing considering that those requests you mentioned (while worded neutral) did result in opinionated editors entering the fray. That does pose the question on whether canvassing was going on, but is there anything to substantiate that AlbinoFerret knew what their stance would be already and was recruiting? An extremely dicey question to tackle, but that would seem to be the only way to demonstrate canvassing here.

Overall, SPA's are tricky to actually pin down as such. The core concept of an SPA is advocacy in some form, so maybe the better question is to ask whether AlbinoFerret's edits are grounded in advocacy for a particular point of view? Looking over how much they have been involved in the topic and the general vibe I get looking at their talk posts, this is a legitimate question to look into at this point, but advocacy actually being an issue here hasn't really been demonstrated yet (i.e., more concrete diffs). This would really have to answered before considering any kind of ban. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:13, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I recently edited the acupuncture article so what did AlbinoFerret write? He wrote "I think I want to add another article to my list of ones I want to edit, perhaps acupuncture would be nice."[76] AlbinoFerret also wrote "If you look at the text that comes after it goes on to point out bias in other studies. so if you intend to change it, the bias statement will come in."[77] Lots of sourced text was removed from the article[78][79] but there was no reason to delete the text even if it was recently added. He undid the removal of text later when an editor commented on his talk page. Now he deleted sourced text again. Please review the problematic RFC. See Talk:Electronic_cigarette#Unknown.2C_Concerns.2C_Unclear.2C_Uncertain.2C_and_Possibilities_RFC. The RFC is unhelpful and the Talk:Electronic cigarette#RFC goes against policy.[80] QuackGuru (talk) 04:36, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I hear you on deleting swathes of text while claiming no consensus though when saying order or section names haven't been decided. That is inappropriate, not to mention the Unknown (etc.) talk section is a plain silly premise and WP:JDL. You guys should be summarizing what the reliable secondary sources say whether the source says something does happen, doesn't, or is unknown. It looks like AlbinoFerret does need help understanding NPOV/due weight when it comes to their concerns about "negative bias", such as this diff [81], but that's not a matter for this noticeboard, but over at WP:NPOVN unless that behavior related to all this content discussion has become either a WP:COMPETENCE issue or advocacy. The acupuncture comment is threatening to WP:HOUND you in this context, no doubt there. Basically, I do agree now that there is a problem with this user.

So, the threatening to hound should get a warning at a minimum or maybe an order of hours block to get the point across that civility is needed to cool their jets. That's just obviously bad. Everything else? Still really ambiguous for me what exactly would justify admin action since there are so many different things that are in a gray zone for whether help in other noticeboards is needed or admin action for disruptive editing. Kingofaces43 (talk) 05:19, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Kingofaces43, I think this is mainly a case of he does not like what the MEDRS compliant sources say.[82] I think he will continue to delete reliably sourced text. QuackGuru (talk) 05:37, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

That is an unfounded accusation, one that you have repeated in quite a few places. Your source says nothing of the kind. It is contrary WP:AGF. AlbinoFerret 19:21, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

1. The "canvassing" does not seem to be an issue, other users were notified in time, and I'm sure AlbinoFerret is now aware of the protocol.
2. The comment about the WHO is not a big deal, and we should be able to accommodate different opinions without allowing it to chill discussion. OF course that does not mean that AF gets to veto WHO sources that meet RS/MEDRS.
3. The personal attack against Quack Guru is unwarranted, and should be struck by AF. AF should be warned about making personal attacks.
4. The suggestion that AF will follow QG to acupuncture is unhelpful at best. AF should be advised not to make these types of comments in future.
5. AF's comment "This is just retaliation for bringing a charge of being involved in an edit war on ..." suggests that AF was deliberately edit warring. AF (and if necessary others) should be reminded that edit warring is not a good solution to disputes. However this ha already been done: AF was warned about edit warring here on the 7th. They seem to understand, though there is resistance to other advice offered.
6. There is no reason for a few hour cooling down block, this section is already several days old.

• I suggest a suitably worded warning/advice about personal attacks (2 above) and threatening to hound (3 above) by an uninvolved admin/editor would serve to resolve this section.
  

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:35, 9 November 2014 (UTC).

User:Bbb23 warned AlbinoFerret against further WP:EDITWARRING. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive260#User:Doc_James_reported_by_User:AlbinoFerret_.28Result:_Both_warned.29. He was warned again. WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is probably the root of the issue here. QuackGuru (talk) 20:10, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from electronic cigarettes, broadly construed. AlbinoFerret is a straight-up WP:TENDENTIOUS WP:Single-purpose account who is engaging in disruptive WP:GAME-playing editing regarding the topic. AF joined the e-cig conversation on Sept. 30, with only a relative handful of edits before that and long gaps in Wikipedia participation. A review of AF's contributions shows 272 of his 284 article edits since Sept. 30 to the topic itself, and ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of his 681 Talk page edits(!) just since Sept. 30 related to the topic. This does't take into account his User Talk page involvement, WP:DRN discussion, or WP:3RRNB and WP:ANI activity related to his behavior regarding his editing of this topic.

  For the game-playing, one example: AF was involved in this Talk page discussion regarding one source, it concluded with no consensus to include the source because it didn't meet the WP:MEDRS standards. It was added back anyway by another editor, which led to this DRN discussion that AF was involved it. It was closed as successful by the DRN volunteer against AF's position, with "no consensus to include". AF appears to have taken this as a license to open up RFCs at the article Talk page over content he doesn't like, and then use that as an excuse to removed lots of well-sourced content while stating "no consensus to include". For example, review this RFC AF started: Talk:Electronic_cigarette#Unknown.2C_Concerns.2C_Unclear.2C_Uncertain.2C_and_Possibilities_RFC, which asks "Should more claims of the Unknown, Concerns, Unclear, Uncertain, and Possibilities type be added to the e-cigarette article?" Several experienced editors pointed out that this is a flawed RFC from the get-go. Formerly 98, QuackGuru, Doc James, Cloudjpk, Johnuniq, FloNight, Alexbrn and myself have all stated that the RFC itself is at best unclear and at worst impossibly out of line with policy, particularly WP:NPOV; only EllenCT has responded in support. This didn't prevent AF from going ahead and removing a ton of well-sourced content with edit summaries like "remove non consensus edits": [83][84][85][86][87][88][89][90]

  Overall AF's involvement at regarding this topic is very disruptive and a topic ban is warranted. Zad68 22:10, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban - the travesty at Electronic cigarette has shaken my faith in the integrity of the Wikipedia medical editing establishment more than any other event. There are multiple very high quality MEDRS literature reviews which have been cited in the article for months, but the medical editor clique -- the same editors opposed to AlbinoFerret here -- are staunchly against including their plain language statements that e-cigarettes are helpful to smokers who switch to them, much less harmful if harmful at all compared to cigarettes, and that physicians should support smokers switching to them. Instead of expressing concerns rooted in policy or guidelines, this cadre is simply making up new rules from whole cloth, pretending that a WHO conference proceeding has been independently reviewed when it is not, and insisting that the uncertainty of inconclusive reviews be exclusively and prominently summarized in the article introduction when they know full well there are no alternative hypotheses contradicting the fact that millions of smokers lives could be saved over the next decade if e-cigarettes are only effective for a quarter of the smoking population (as one of the longstanding MEDRS reviews says) because they mitigate the damage from smoke inhalation. If I was not so demoralized by this sad state of affairs, I would have already escalated it through WP:RSN to higher level dispute resolution to call this formerly respectable cadre to account. Oh! How my heroes have fallen! Sic transit gloria mundi! I urge administrators to admonish the fallen cadre for their blatant disrespect and violation of the NPOV pillar policy. EllenCT (talk) 00:03, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Rather a vast conspiracy you are positing here Ellen. Why do you suppose that a group, many of whom are physicians, and which has created for itself the most demanding set of sourcing rules of any project in Wikipedia, the Medicine Project would suddenly and en mass decide to conspire to cover up evidence supporting a health-promoting device? I'd urge you to think about alternate hypotheses for explaining the current deadlock.Formerly 98 (talk) 00:20, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Not a conspiracy, just a bunch of bullies who have become so overwhelmed with WP:OWNership of an entire subject matter that they are willing to ignore policy and make up new rules to save face. I've repeatedly asked for alternative hypotheses on the article talk page, and none have been forthcoming. So what do you say they are? EllenCT (talk) 06:18, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Please, Ellen, this ANI discussion needs to remain focused on editor behavior and not turn into a content discussion. You haven't made any behavior-based argument here against a topic ban for AF. We need to be able to have disagreements about sourcing and content without engaging in disruptive behavior, as AF has done. Zad68 00:45, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I am complaining about editor behavior, and there is no way to explain that complaint without reference to the underlying content. That is just the way things are. AlbinoFerret should be commended for upholding the NPOV pillar policy in the face of so much willingness to disregard and violate it, and shame on your characterization of that admirable behavior as disruption. EllenCT (talk) 06:18, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

*Support Topic Ban, preferably in combination with a temporary freeze on editing by all editors By way of disclosure I have been somewhat involved in this conflict and on the other side from AF. I've personally felt concerned by what I perceive as a lack of understanding or perhaps a even a lack of regard for MEDRS by AF and some of his allies, who really seem to me less concerned with reliable sources and reflecting the extremely heavy emphasis placed on health issues in virtually all reliable sources on this topic than on making sure it presents a certain point of view. How one can take a topic in which so much of what is in the literature is about health and make suggestions such as splitting out the health issue discussion into a separate article is beyond my imagination as behavior of someone who is trying to build an encylopedia rather than advocate. But as I have admitted, I am to some extent a combatant here and so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.

I am also concerned about the effect this long running battle has on the culture of Wikipedia. The Electronic Cigarette article has been edited 272 times this week and the Talk page 508 times. We usually have at least one RFc ongoing. This is an edit war on the scale of WWI, with an equal level of deadlock.

Its time for the United Nations to send in some peacekeeping troops. I'd urge a fairly lengthy freeze of the article contents. I think a two week or longer ban on ALL EDITS by ALL PARTIES would potentially have a saluatory effect at this point. This, combined with topic bans for those whose behavior is indicative of not putting the encyclopedia first might put us on the right track. I'd recommend both of these actions, but either one by itself might help. Formerly 98 (talk) 23:56, 9 November 2014 (UTC) Striking and reversing based on good progress today. Will oppose tentatively contingent on continued progress. Formerly 98 (talk) 21:11, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• • Support editing freeze - the cadre trying to omit the conclusive, prescriptive statements from the MEDRS reviews they otherwise support need to step aside and make way for editors who have respect for the NPOV policy. At this point I agree that a two week ban on edits by those who have previously edited the article is the only way to accomplish that. A topic ban alone would make things worse. EllenCT (talk) 06:31, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban It is obvious that the RFC mentioned above is formulated as a vague motherhood statement to be used as a pretext to revert unwanted edits. Contributors wanting to tell the world about the benefits of e-cigarettes will have to excuse the slow and methodical approach of the WP:MEDRS editors who correctly want to wait for suitable sources. AlbinoFerret has 272 edits to Electronic cigarette and 680 to Talk:Electronic cigarette, all made in the last 42 days, and the frenetic pace is not matched by improvements to the article. Johnuniq (talk) 02:31, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

  Banning someone because editors with an opposing POV don't like the way an RFC is worded would be abhorrent. Issues with the RFC should be addressed within the RFC itself, not by begging admins to squelch the voice of its author. EllenCT (talk) 06:34, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

  Three hours after my above comment, AlbinoFerret removed verified text from the article (diff) with edit summary "remove speculative statement added while RFC on topic is ongoing". In other words, the RFC is already being used as a pretext to remove information verified by a reliable source. The point about e-cigarettes is that they are new and it will be many years before proper studies are available to provide accurate information. Until then, reliable sources will make many tentative statements such as the one removed on the basis that it was speculative. The big problem is that every statement about the efficacy and benefits of e-cigarettes is speculative (other than statements such as the one removed). The article talk page shows AlbinoFerret still arguing that the RFC is valid—that is why a topic ban is required. Johnuniq (talk) 09:26, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban based on above comments. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:05, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. The construction of an off-policy RfC and the subsequent mass deletion of content because of its assumed authority is damaging the page; the torrents of WP:IDHT text on the Talk page are similarly unwelcome. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 07:00, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

What looks to me like a 3RR violation as well, at a minimum getting very close for someone previously warned against edit warring: Diff 1, Diff 2, Diff 3, Diff 4 Another large set of reversions the day before, about 12 hours outside the 24 hour window. Diff 5 Formerly 98 (talk) 11:51, 10 November 2014 (UTC) Striking and reversing based on some good progress today. Formerly 98 (talk) 21:11, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban It is sad reflection of the state of relations between users who edit the e-cig article that what is effectively a content dispute gets raised here. From all that I have seen AlbinoFerret's behaviour and actions have been mostly positive ones (and certainly in good faith). In regards to the points originally raised, AlbinoFerret's low opinion of The WHO that was voiced on a talk page is not a violation of any policies/guidelines that I know of, he is fully entitled to an opinion. The point regarding him calling QuackGuru "the master of ridiculous" also carries little weight since the intention was clearly to highlight QuackGuru's (an editor with an [exceptionally long block log], last blocked for disruptive editing on the e-cig article) own derogatory use of "ridiculous". WP:CANVASSING, well if it was canvassing AlbinoFerret very soon realised their mistake and notified editors with opposing opinions. WP:SPA is not specifically prohibited as I understand it, I see no evidence that they are engaging in advocacy and little evidence has been presented that they have a WP:COI. Better to WP:AGF in the face of a lack of evidence I think.Levelledout (talk) 14:01, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban this is a content dispute. I have done nothing to warrant a topic ban. Much has been said in the comments about an RFC I started on "Speculative" statements citing WP:CBALL. There has never been consensus for adding these "Unknown" and "unclear" statements. As noted they have been removed by me and others. Only to have the larger group of medical editors restore them, even if someone else removes them. But WP isnt build on who the larger group is, but consensus. I started the RFC top see where consensus lies. Citing it as a problem, use of an RFC to see what the consensus of the editors is, only goes to prove that this is a content issue. The fewer non medical editors, the easier it will be for group ownership to continue. AlbinoFerret 06:42, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

As an uninvolved editor, what I'm seeing isn't just a content dispute. It's concerns over behavior stemming from a content dispute that has gotten out of hand. Sometimes editors have a tough time disentangling those ideas. I've seen your concerns about "Unknown" and "unclear" statements on the page, and it looks like that is one of the main things that is getting the talk page pretty bloated. WP:CRYSTALBALL pertains to us as editors trying to figure out what future relevance may be. If a reliable source though is summarizing scientific research and stating its current state of knowledge in the field, that's a very different case (i.e., Here are important things that we don't know much about yet). Points like that don't seem to be getting across, which is a behavior issue described by WP:IDHT. Sometimes that's a competence issue, sometimes it's just being passionate in a controversial topic and not being as receptive to criticism depending on the editor. Normally, that is a behavior that can be remedied as it's not as serious as an isolated incident, but it can become very disruptive when it persists over time. I'd suggest just stepping back for a bit and reflecting on some of the legitimate criticism made about your behavior. You're definitely in a position where admin action isn't needed if you can resolve your behavior, so I'd suggest learning about how scientific research is summarized and maybe ask over at WP:NPOVN about how unknowns are summarized in literature too. I'm only slightly positive on a ban because it does seem like it would improve the talk page discussion, but it doesn't seem like a good option at all compared to following the path I just mentioned. You've definitely got room to move forward on this, so good luck. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment Kingofaces43, sometimes the words of an uninvolved editor have more impact when there is a controversy. I was hoping for more uninvolved editors to comment on the RFC, perhaps if that had happened it would have been withdrawn sooner. That a few people voted No to inclusion had me thinking perhaps I was correct that there was no consensus. I have withdrawn the RCF based on your post. I did go looking for information on WPNOV, but I asked the question in the wrong place. AlbinoFerret 16:33, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban - this is just too disruptive. AlbinoFerret thinks he did done nothing to warrant a topic ban. Originally AlbinoFerret said I dont see a word about deleting anything in the RFC. but later he misused the RFC to remove text he does not like with edit summary "remove speculative statement added while RFC on topic is ongoing".[91] He wrote in his edit summary remove older study that newer ones find answers to. It was not a study. It is a WP:MEDRS compliant review. He has a pattern of deleting well sourced text he does not like. QuackGuru (talk) 07:36, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I dont believe adding speculative statements to the article has consensus, removing [edits shows there is no consensus,also this edit did not remove this claim from the article, but just from the lede, it existed in the Harm reduction section. This edit cited by QuackGuru was a misunderstanding thinking that other reviews had cleared things up. The claim exists in the article today and hasnt been removed. Two of the diffs added by you are duplicates of other links in your comment. AlbinoFerret 08:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Oppose topic ban = Those edits were made more than a week ago. When it comes to WP:CANVASSING, WP:BOOMERANG should apply to Doc James for canvassing repeatedly. -A1candidate (talk) 23:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. User:AlbinoFerret, please explain your accusation here. My recent edit did not change any section name. I commented on the talk page the section name should be simple rather than long. QuackGuru (talk) 01:42, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

@QuackGuru: I had already apologised at the exact same moment you were posting here. It was your pal Cloudjpk who reverted back to the inaccurate section name. After you did not change it, I changed it to one of the proposed names. The section name is inaccurate as it discusses 3 different particle sizes. Your wanting to keep the name and phrasing you have edited in is a ownership issue. AlbinoFerret

It was previously explained on the talk page that the text and sources describe the particles in the ultrafine range. User:Formerly 98 wrote: "I don't understand the OR tag on the Ultrafine particles section. The cited references clearly describe these particles as being in the nanometer size range, which is on the order of a couple of thousand molecules. Doesn't get much finer than that. What exactly is the OR being referred to here?"[92]

There is no need to have a long section name and you never had consensus in the first place to change the section name. QuackGuru (talk) 02:03, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

The name still needs to be changed. The reasons why are clear. But this is not the place to discuss content issues. After 2 days of discussing it, I changed it to better describe its content. It needs to be changed as we speak because of a revert. This is an ongoing issue, things are done to improve the article, only to be reverted. AlbinoFerret 02:10, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Disagreed. The section name is accurate. Now you are arguing to change the wording back to vapor. But the article says "Mist produced from an e-cigarette is frequently but inaccurately called vapor.[2]" Do you understand the term vapor is inaccurate? QuackGuru (talk) 02:39, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I am not arguing, but discussing. The word Vapor is common usage when discussing e-cigarettes. WP:MEDMOS tells us we should write for the common reader using normal terms when possible, not jargon. It was never agreed to change every instance of vapor to mist. There was a discussion in the lede about the constant swapping out of vapor to aerosol by you, another ownership issue. An agreement was made for that sentence, excluding the whole article (see the last comment in the section I linked to), to change that sentence to mist. You have been busy changing vapor to mist, but forgot about aerosol. If it works for one word, it works for both. You have argued consistancy, if it works for one word , it should work for both words that were part of that discussion. But this is not the place to discuss content issues. AlbinoFerret 03:37, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Do you think your edit matched your edit summary? Part of your edit included deleting the wikilink for no apparent reason and you changed the text that was in quotes. You should not change the quoted text. Changing the text that were quoted is original research. You previously wrote "...a wikilink to aerosol isnt that bad either." QuackGuru (talk) 06:15, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I think a large boomerang should hit you. You are quick to post content issues here in an attempt to get me topic banned. This is not the place for content problems, but you insist on bringing them here. But talk little on the articles talk page except to defend the problems you insert in the page (see long line diff's below). You revert things to how you added them no matter how the wording was changed or who changes it. This wikilink was placed by you in order to get around the agreement you are trying to enforce. You originally added it here. You want things to be consistent. Based on limited agreements. But only so far as it doesnt touch edits you have made or wording you have placed in[93], because the limited agreement was to chose "mist" over "vapor" or "aerosol" you did not change one instance of aerosol without wikilinking to it to cheat the agreement, and then only for a few, but there is no consensus for any widespread change as shown by the limited agreement. Regardless what guidelines like WP:MEDMOS say you wirt like a medical journal and not for the general reader always adding jargon. You have been banned for disruptive editing more times than anyone I have edited a page with. Yet you still continue to disrupt the editing of e-cigarette. [94][95], [96], [97] [98], and here where you accused me of filing a fake 3rr report You insist on inserting WP:OR [99][100][101]. You argue over small words that have the same meaning and dont pahaphrase[102][103][104]. You insert non MEDRS to make medical claims [105]. You insist on placing one review out of order to serve your pov [106] and refuse any order but the one you want. After dating the citation names in the source to keep them in order[107][108] you changed them back to disguise your actions and edited the section to place your subjective order in place[109]. A forever boomerang should hit you because you have had banns (look at his talk page for a long list) but still continue disruptive editing. AlbinoFerret 12:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I may not be perfect and I may have a lot to learn when dealing with disruptive people. But when I do make mistakes, I apologize for them, and make changes going forward. AlbinoFerret 14:36, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I have started a new RFC, it is on the use of the word Mist vs Vapor vs Aerosol to see what the consensus is in using these words. There have been a lot of edit battles on the words as some want one thing other want something use used they are replaced with each other all the time by multiple editors. Quack Guru just made a statement that severely goes against WP:AGF with what I consider very serious accusations with no proof. These accusations include WP:ADVOCACY and to "carry on ideological WP:BATTLES". He is also suggesting we carry out WP:OR by using one source to correct others. I am trying to use the tools Wikipedia has to fix issues. These attacks are just sad. AlbinoFerret 08:43, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban - this is a thinly-veiled attempt to resolve a content dispute by getting an editor with opposing views removed from the discussion. Mihaister (talk) 06:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban - I agree with Mihaister; this is just an attempt to get rid of an editor the MED cabal don't like. If anyone should be topic banned it's QuackGuru and Doc James, who've turned an article about a consumer product into a terrifying list of speculation and unfounded concerns based mostly on a single paper by a mechanical engineer.--CheesyAppleFlake (talk) 20:22, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Note. User:CheesyAppleFlake was indefinitely blocked from editing by User:Secret on 18 November 2014.[110]. QuackGuru (talk) 18:01, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban Since it seems that all the involved editors have chosen to give their 2 cents here, i will do so as well, even if i'm involved, and really shouldn't :( . What is happening here is basically one "side" of a content dispute trying to get rid of an editor on the other "side" - and that really should have been thrown away immediately. I find it a sad state of affairs that something as silly as this gets escalated to ANI - but perhaps it is time to find some non-involved volunteer admin who will "police" the article for misbehaviour on either "side". --Kim D. Petersen 01:18, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban The record is clear: endless WP:IDHT, WP:TENDENTIOUS and just plain disruptive editing. Cloudjpk (talk) 04:45, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment: I think you will find that most editors (on both 'sides') involved in the e-cig article have been guilty of some amount of WP:IDHT and partisan editing, where is the evidence that AlbinoFerret is substantially more guilty than everyone else? In fact AlbinoFerret has [made special efforts] to try and diffuse all the feuding between 'sides'.

I couldn't agree more with the likes of Mihaister and Kim D. Petersen that this all has far more to do with trying to suppress the opinions and legitimate editing of a particularly active editor, therefore gaining ground in a content dispute. Whether intended or not, it is also likely to intimidate other editors.Levelledout (talk) 15:52, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban per EllenCT, Levelledout, Mihaister, CheesyAppleFlake and Kim D. Petersen. I have no involvement in this content dispute but have been watching from a far. This appears to be an effort to get rid of opposing views. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 03:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban - Albino has gone on a tear now, adding non-NPOV content about pharma companies lobbying to have e-cigs treated as medical devices in europe, to a bunch of articles: here and here and here and here. None of his edits mention lobbying efforts by the e-cig industry against treating them like medical devices. These efforts are named in the title of the NYTimes article he is using a source: "Aided by Army of ‘Vapers,’ E-Cigarette Industry Woos and Wins Europe" and the e-cig industry lobbying is the focus of most articles about it. argh. Albino's WP:SPA POV-pushing related to a pro-e-cig POV is extending out beyond the e-cig article. In the GSK article, I've reverted the addition and asked why the content should be given any WP:WEIGHT and if so, how much, and the question is just going right over his head. (discussion is here) All he can see is e-cigs. Enough already. Jytdog (talk) 02:25, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

User:CheesyAppleFlake

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• CheesyAppleFlake (talk · contribs · block log)

This editor is a WP:SPA with fully 157 of his 164 edits regarding Electronic cigarette. For whatever reason this article has become extremely contentious, but Cheesy's contributions to the topic area serve purely to insult others and fan the flames. He had already received one civility warning from Doc James regarding this comment of his; his responses were "By now everyone knows Quack is basically your meatpuppet" and "the incestuous relationship between Quack and Doc James is pretty common knowledge". Today he posted this at the article Talk page, calling other editors retarded chipmunks. I asked him to reconsider at his User Talk, his response was this, the article is being destroyed by semi-literate idiots intent on forcing a medical agenda onto an article about a consumer product. And you can't seriously tell me that either Sieg Heilman or Quack has any significant mastery of the English language. Calling Doc James "Sieg Heilman" is beyond the pale. See current status of their User Talk here. I don't believe this is a candidate for a topic ban because I have no evidence they're here to do anything other than take potshots or fan the flames, I don't detect any kind of learning happening or even any desire to do better. I think this is a candidate for a block. Zad68 05:23, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I didn't call other editors retarded chipmunks. I said the Health Effects section looks like it was written by retarded chipmunks, because it does. However any attempt to change the wording gets reverted by Doc James or Quack, neither of whom appears to be a native English speaker.--CheesyAppleFlake (talk) 11:15, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Cheesy, you might have been able to hide behind this tiny fig leaf, which is nothing more than a technical letter-but-not-spirit loophole in WP:NPA policy, had you not gone ahead and named Doc James and QuackGuru explicitly on your User Talk as the individual editors you were referring to. And if you recognize that calling other editors "retarded chipmunks" was unacceptable enough to attempt to hide behind a technicality in WP:NPA policy to distance yourself from it, what are we to think about the other comments you've made, where you haven't bothered to make even that effort? Zad68 13:24, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I may not have put it that way. but a lot of the article looks like someone wrote down claims on slips of paper, tossed them in a bag, and pulled them out one at a time and inserted them. "looks like it was written by retarded chipmunks" looks to be a very sarcastic comment, not something based in anger. It also addresses a common issue on the article where at least one editor cant paraphrase or refuses to. Where at least one major contributor has what appear to be reading comprehension issues, and that isnt an insult but assuming good faith. Where that editor wont rewrite sentences or remove problematic uses of sources where they acknowledge a problem probably exists, but insists others do it for them. You are pointing out the symptom and not seeing the underlying problem. The way its addressed could definitely use some improvement, but we need people pointing out issues in the article so it can be improved. Silencing someone for anything but a small time to think on their actions is counterproductive. AlbinoFerret 16:16, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

His response here looks to be in response to the conflict currently going on in this section. Where you, and you are an admin, are refusing to follow WP:NOCONSENSUS. AlbinoFerret 05:29, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

You are saying there is justification for Cheesy calling Doc James "Sieg Heilman"? Zad68 05:33, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes; his dictatorial attitude and serious WP:OWN issues. He's just an editor like anyone else, but he throws his weight around like he owns the place. No interest in consensus, just an obsession with forcing MED rules on everything that takes his interest.--CheesyAppleFlake (talk) 11:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

There is never a reason for racial slurs, never, ever, ever, ever. The way you addressed a problem is wrong. But there is a problem. The reasons for the actions you see is because there is a larger group of editors acting as a group. I cant prove collusion, but if an issue pops up editors from the medical side amazingly pop up. Doc James has already been warned for edit warring and canvassing. He knows that he has backup. A big issue on the article is a heightened standard of references for what should be non contentious claims and requiring every claim have a reference even in areas that are not medical in nature on a article about a consumer product. There is also a problem imho with completely silencing any criticism of the Grana article or the WHO. AlbinoFerret 16:43, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

There he constant battle between two groups of editors, medical, and non medical over content. I agree he does have a lot to learn, but if asked nicely he may change. I have asked him nicely to remove other things before, and he did. But there is no time really to teach anyone anything on the article talk pages. Its a constant battleground that leads to a battleground mentality. The article needs someone to step in, not someone with ties to the article, or Wikiprojects that have an interest in it. Its getting worse, and the article has more problems, frankly I fear to bring them up because of it. AlbinoFerret 05:40, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Civility--basic respect for editors you don't necessarily agree with--is essential, especially at a contentious article. You don't even seem to be aware that Cheesy's involvement at the article is significantly inhibiting your ability to work on it. Zad68 05:45, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

But it wouldn't be a contentious article if a few members from one Wikiproject weren't insisting on treating it as medical and using massive over-reliance on one dubious paper to slant it the way they want.--CheesyAppleFlake (talk) 11:27, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I think there is a bigger problem than Cheesy, QuackGuru is involved in almost all the conflicts as a main participant. Could Cheesy use a break to think on what he has done? Maybe, but a ban? I dont think so. Like I said, there are lots of problems, and conflicts start all the time. I am doing my very best to stay calm and just work on the article, but its near impossible. Formally 98 had it quiet for a day or so, to bad it didnt last. AlbinoFerret 05:50, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Maybe so but Cheesy's behavior is disruptive, inexcusable, and isn't stopping after repeated warnings. Let's start there. Zad68 05:54, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Maybe so? I take that back QuackGuru is a main participant in ALL the conflicts. As for Cheesy, bans are not ment to be punitiveWP:BLOCKNOTPUNITIVE. Thats what I see happening here, and how Cheesy will take it. We need to quiet the conflicts, because thats whats causing the problem with Cheesy, we need to stop with the "I Just Dont Like it" edits. Because as I said above, its a battleground and it brings about a battleground mentality. Its turning everyone into a fighter when we should be editing. These notice board filings are treating a symptom and not the problem underneath. If anything, a short topic block to cool off. AlbinoFerret 06:03, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Please start a new section if you want to complain about something else. Johnuniq (talk) 05:43, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

It isnt a complaint so much as context. QG's conduct is already chronicled above, but perhaps a section of his own instead of hoping for a boomerang would be better. Without undestanding the root of the problem, its just treating a symtom. AlbinoFerret 06:18, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

AF, re "As for Cheesy, bans are not ment to be punitive WP:BLOCKNOTPUNITIVE" -- If you really believe BLOCKNOTPUNITIVE applies here, you are seriously misunderstanding what's going on. However per your own comment here where you call out Cheesy's behavior as unacceptable and implore him not to continue doing it indicates that you know his behavior has been bad and is likely to continue--that is exactly what sanctions are designed for. Any sanction being considered for Cheesy will be preventative against future bad behavior, and so BLOCKNOTPUNITIVE does not apply here. Zad68 13:14, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

If you dont see that a ban instead of a short topic block will be seen as punishment by Cheesy and a lot of the editors that see the same problems with the article, it brings questions about your understanding of people and how to help with admin actions and not hurt. Where are the comments on any other page but their own and e-cigaertte that are problems? Why the heavy handed approach? AlbinoFerret 16:25, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

• This edit referring to Sieg Heilman (see James Heilman and User:Doc James) shows that a topic ban from Electronic cigarette is required for CheesyAppleFlake. There is no need to block if the user manages to edit constructively elsewhere. Johnuniq (talk) 05:43, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
  • There is really no response when someone starts making racial slurs. This is Godwin's law in action. Further less than helpful comments keep coming in [111] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:43, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, its been very contentious. But the problem here is not just a content dispute. Cheesy never misses an opportunity to add an insult to his comments on the Talk page or even his edit summaries. He's here to try to beat his opponents into submission, and to my knowledge has never made a single post that encouraged any sort of compromise or consensus building. Some Cheesy classics:

• "I'll just suggest that instead of trying to force a medical slant on this article you learn something about the subject first. That's the main cause of this whole damn mess"
• "This is because, no offense, you have no idea about the subject in general."
• Im response to my proposal that we take 24 hours off from editing for a cooling off period: "No. Go spend the 24 hours learning something about the damn subject"
• "So we didn't all agree that e-cigs are a health hazard, and now you grab your ball and go home. Fine. See you when you finish elementary school"
• "Well then I am going to change every instance of "mist" back to "vapor". Nobody else in the entire fucking world calls e-cig vapor "mist" apart from this idiotic article."
• "But hey, it's also an alternative to very lucrative (but useless) NRTs, so the med crowd don't care if it saves lives or not."
• "Meanwhile a review published in Addiction is being rejected by your lapdog because he doesn't like its conclusions."

I've been here for 3 years and have never before met an editor whose presence was so inimical to civil discussion and consensus forming. Formerly 98 (talk) 11:06, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Really? How about QuackGuru? If you want to identify the real problem on the article (and many more) it's him, abetted by his fearless protector.--CheesyAppleFlake (talk) 11:13, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Adding also the following exchange on Chessy's Talk page:

This was not an appropriate or collaborative, content-focused comment, and it was just one of many unnecessary sharp comments you've made at that article's already overly-contentious Talk page. Please reconsider your approach to working alongside your fellow editors. Zad68 9:01 pm, Yesterday (UTC−8)

It was perfectly appropriate, because the article is being destroyed by semi-literate idiots intent on forcing a medical agenda onto an article about a consumer product. And you can't seriously tell me that either Sieg Heilman or Quack has any significant mastery of the English language, because they don't.--CheesyAppleFlake (talk) 9:07 pm, Yesterday (UTC−8)

Even Cheesy's main supporter on this page clearly sees a problem:

Hi Cheesy. The e-cigarette article needs editors. I like having someone else like you who sees the components section as important and in need of developing on the article. But the personal stuff has got to stop. I really really know its hard to bite your tong or sit on your hands. But it doesnt do any good to post some of the stuff they have links of you posting. I truly believe that some people do and say things hoping to get a reaction they can use against you. But posting stuff only plays into their game. Take some time to cool down. Strike the words you have posted in aggravation towards someone else. Be a better person and rise above it. Again, its not easy, it never is, and the Lord knows I have not always followed my own advice in the past. AlbinoFerret 10:52 pm, Yesterday (UTC−8) Formerly 98 (talk) 11:28, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I dont think that was a nice thing to do. An attempt to help someone turned around and used against them. This proposed ban is treating the symptom and not the problem. Some of Cheesy's comments are problems. I would never make them. But so are a lot of the actions on e-cigarette that bring these comments out. Its a battleground and it has got to stop. Would a short time off to cool down and think about all this help? Probably. My comments on Cheesy's talk page were an attempt to get more thinking and less instant action. I agree with what I assume to be a lot of the underlying reasons for the posts, just not the words used and the way he went about confronting the problem. AlbinoFerret 15:51, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

The real problem is QuackGuru, who falsely claims consensus for stupid edits like his wholesale replacement of "vapor" with "mist", and Doc James isn't helping much either. Topic ban them and the article will cool down considerably. Neither of them knows anything about the subject anyway and they haven't shown any willingness to learn, so apart from regurgitating the Grana paper at every opportunity they don't have a lot to offer.--CheesyAppleFlake (talk) 11:36, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

• support block per original posting and subject's behavior in the discussion above. WP:NOTHERE. Jytdog (talk) 12:39, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support block too as an uninvolved editor having reviewed the evidence. Jack Stamps (talk) 16:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
• Block and indefinite topic ban from electronic cigarettes, as they clearly are too emotionally involved in the topic to contribute usefully to the topic. "Sieg Heilman"? Seriously? How are they not blocked already? Yobol (talk) 16:20, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

• I don't understand why we are discussing a block here when the editor is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia and his actions at this noticeboard is of a battleground mentality that we don't need in this project. I went ahead and gave him an indefinite block. Secret ^account 16:44, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

• support short topic block. The users actions are problematic, but centred on one article with no proof that it extends to any other page. A short time to step away and think on their actions would be helpful. A complete removal from WP is heavy handed and a long term topic block will let the underlying problems with the article continue by talking one more voice of a small group that speak on them. I hope Cheesy can come back and change their actions and work in a constructive way to address the problems that exist on e-cigarette and are not going away. AlbinoFerret 16:53, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I type to slow. AlbinoFerret 16:56, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

You really believe that if you could just have typed a little faster, you could have "saved" Cheesy, given the above? No. Zad68 17:01, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:QuackGuru

User:QuackGuru has been blocked before for disruptive editing. He has a long term history of disruptive editing to multiple articles on WP. A search of the WP:AN/I cases brings back 84 results. A common theme when reading through some of the reports is WP:IDHT A review of the log that is accessible from his talk page shows he has had blocks for disruptive editing 3 times this year and once in the last month.A wikipedia block is in order. The log also shows a repeated pattern of disruptive editing with numerous blocks/bans over time. All for disruptive editing. He seems attracted to controversial articles and adds disruption to already difficult situations. The actions below all revolve on the Electronic cigarette article.

In a textbook case of WP:IDHT QuackGuru is being disruptive to the Electronic cigarette talk page. He is attempting to poison the RFC that is on the topic of what word to choose to describe what comes out of an e-cigarette, either Vapor, Mist or Aerosol

He started out trying to use a limited agreement on one sentence in the lede by placing comments to other commentator in two places at once. diff Since he also tried to attribute motive for the RFC I replied to the comment and told him the previous consensus was limited to one sentence in the lede and that he had broken the agreement and that the RFC was to see where consensus lies. diff

He created a subsection of the RFC called "Consensus" diff He also placed the same comment trying to prove that a limited consensus, that he broke, was consensus on the topic of the RFC in that subsection. He had placed the comment before in the RFC already in the question C section. diff and it was pointed out again in that section that the consensus was limited and that he had broken the agreement. Link

He then collapsed the comment in the original subsection he created and used bold to make a fake subsection with a {{OD}} and <big> tag to place the comments in. diff Another editor Kim D. Petersen commented on his WP:IDHT activities in two spots in the comments section.diff. In a bit of irony QuackGuru is part of a DRN because he removed subsections and other organization items from the article saying they were there to attract attention. link.

From a section above on me that has seemed to have stalled I am copying a section that lists all the disruptive acts QuackGuru has recently done.

:I think a large boomerang should hit you. You are quick to post content issues here in an attempt to get me topic banned. This is not the place for content problems, but you insist on bringing them here. But talk little on the articles talk page except to defend the problems you insert in the page (see long line diff's below). You revert things to how you added them no matter how the wording was changed or who changes it. This wikilink was placed by you in order to get around the agreement you are trying to enforce. You originally added it here. You want things to be consistent. Based on limited agreements. But only so far as it doesnt touch edits you have made or wording you have placed in[112], because the limited agreement was to chose "mist" over "vapor" or "aerosol" you did not change one instance of aerosol without wikilinking to it to cheat the agreement, and then only for a few, but there is no consensus for any widespread change as shown by the limited agreement. Regardless what guidelines like WP:MEDMOS say you wirt like a medical journal and not for the general reader always adding jargon. You have been banned for disruptive editing more times than anyone I have edited a page with. Yet you still continue to disrupt the editing of e-cigarette. [113][114], [115], [116] [117], and here where you accused me of filing a fake 3rr report You insist on inserting WP:OR [118][119][120]. You argue over small words that have the same meaning and dont pahaphrase[121][122][123]. You insert non MEDRS to make medical claims [124]. You insist on placing one review out of order to serve your pov [125] and refuse any order but the one you want. After dating the citation names in the source to keep them in order[126][127] you changed them back to disguise your actions and edited the section to place your subjective order in place[128]. A forever boomerang should hit you because you have had banns (look at his talk page for a long list) but still continue disruptive editing. AlbinoFerret 12:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I may not be perfect and I may have a lot to learn when dealing with disruptive people. But when I do make mistakes, I apologize for them, and make changes going forward. AlbinoFerret 14:36, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I have started a new RFC, it is on the use of the word Mist vs Vapor vs Aerosol to see what the consensus is in using these words. There have been a lot of edit battles on the words as some want one thing other want something use used they are replaced with each other all the time by multiple editors. Quack Guru just made a statement that severely goes against WP:AGF with what I consider very serious accusations with no proof. These accusations include WP:ADVOCACY and to "carry on ideological WP:BATTLES". He is also suggesting we carry out WP:OR by using one source to correct others. I am trying to use the tools Wikipedia has to fix issues. These attacks are just sad. AlbinoFerret 08:43, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Continued edit warring while listed here

During the discussion here, which QuackGuru was notified of diff, and he is active on WP and knows about because he removed the notice.diff I removed the embellishments that have no place in the RFC. QuackGuru has continued edit warring by reverting that change. diff AlbinoFerret 18:43, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

You're being ridiculous. You modified another editor's comments. What was his very next edit? Zad68 18:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I did not edit his comments, I edited a fake section he created.diff The words he posted remained intact. The section they are in remained the same. He is edit warring. AlbinoFerret 18:50, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll leave it to others to review the edits to determine whether you refactored. QG then undid your change one time, to leave you an edit summary explaining why you probably should not have modified it. Then QG immediately removed it. You are describing this as "edit warring".... on the Talk page. Zad68 18:57, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:WAR edit waring is "An edit war only arises if the situation develops into a series of back-and-forth reverts". WP:3RR which is a section of WP:WAR says any part of a page is the scope "A "page" means any page on Wikipedia, including talk and project space." I have changed header once, I have changed the embellishments the second time because they were a fake header that looked like one. QuackGuru insists on the form, and the word. Per WP:TPO Section headings no one owns section headers, they are not comments. AlbinoFerret 19:16, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

A continuation of the above is QuackGuru improperly trying to influence an RFC. I started a section to specifically deal with the future closing because a few comments in the discussion area had talked about it. Today Quackguru added a comment, like many of the others mentioned in this section to that section. diff This is continued disruption. AlbinoFerret 23:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Block or Ban

• I think he is a candidate for an indefinite block. AlbinoFerret 15:59, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Support Block or Topic BanWhile some have tried to label this as a content issue, it is not. The problem is long term disruptive editing and talk page posting that is seriously harming the article, and from his system log shows it is widespread. Way to much time has already been wasted on discussing the copyright, ownership, and misapplication of WP policies like WP:OR with no change in actions or posting. He has had lots of chances to fix these issues brought up by previous blocks and banns but continues to do it. It has even continued after this section was placed and he was notified. Other editors should not be distracted with these problems that continue so disrupt and place WP at risk with copyright issues. While a block would protect WP, a topic ban if made long enough might, and I am not at all convinced it might, convince him of the need to change. So far all other attempts, blocks, and bans have failed. There have also been allegations that I am doing this because of what happed above to CheesyAppleFlake, or that I somehow excused his actions. I never defended those actions, I only suggested that a topic ban might be effective. Its a diffrent case entirely with QuackGuru who has had numerous blocks/bans and has not changed. The types of behaviour are also different, Cheesy never put WP at risk of copyright violations where QuackGuru continues to. It is also a case of two wrongs dont make a right, because someone else may have done something wrong, is no excuse for QuackGuru's actions. AlbinoFerret 16:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose block I support blocks when editors either are being uncivil or are creating a impassable barrier to resolution. The conversation at the article in question is ongoing. Discussions of extremely controversial topics of international importance are unlikely to be resolved quickly by a few Wikipedians on a talk page, so while I recognize the difficulty here I am not ready to dismiss a leading participant in this conversation, especially when practically everyone who even looks at the talk page of this article loses all their sense and goes crazy.

I have defended QuackGuru in the past because this user seeks out the most controversial spaces in Wikipedia's health articles. I do not think this user creates the controversy, nor do I blame any Wikipedia user for the controversy's existence. It is the nature of Wikipedia to create forums where people of various perspectives would meet, and if there is controversy on Wikipedia, then this is only because there is no other forum anywhere in which people of varying perspectives can meet to seek consensus.

The biggest fault that I find in all of this is lack of good source material, ambiguity in the subject matter, and a greater burden to seek quality on Wikipedia editors than the burden is on scientific and popular publishers. The pressure here is that Wikipedia editors should achieve higher quality than exists among think tanks which with huge amounts of funding have only produced lower-quality explanations. I find no fault with the debate in this article. It is progressing. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:56, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Oppose block This is just continuation of the entrenched content war at E cig by other means. I would not call QGs behavior perfect, but I would call it better than that of many of those he is arguing with, and several orders of magnitude bettrr than that of Cheesy, whom AlbinoFerret was vigorously defending in this exact forum just a few days ago. Formerly 98 (talk) 16:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose irrespective of what the wider issue is, I always find it highly improper when two parties are in a dispute of any kind and one party seeks the topic ban or indef block of the other party. In such cases I wil invariably oppose. The only exceptions being blatant copyvios, legal threats, threats of violence, outing or doxing, outright vandalism, proven socking and racism. Blackmane (talk) 06:31, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

This is the kind of thing that makes Wikipedia a laughingstock - endless battles over individual words - such as vapor vs. mist vs. whatever. What do valid sources call it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:14, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Yup sort of a case of who cares. Best available sources call it a aerosol. Albino it appears does not like the term as it sounds negative.

Of the last 500 edits in less than 2 weeks QG made ~142 and Albino made ~168.

I have proposed a topic ban for Abino above [129]

Since that has occurred they have supported a now banned user who more or less made racist comments [130] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:19, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

That is an inaccurate description of the discussion here. I did not support or excuse the things he did. In fact I said that racist slurs "should never, ever, ever, ever be used" I spoke to lessoning of the actions and giving Cheesy time away from the article with a topic ban, to think, and perhaps change for the better. That since his actions were only on one article, in the midst of a controversy, a block of all WP was a bit extreme imo. AlbinoFerret 19:05, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs:The problem is, that sources call it different things. Best sources is a matter of opinion as the majority of them use vapor and it is the most common term used that a general reader will easily understand. There is an effort to remove the term "vapor" from the article citing a few medical reviews and that its "promotional" but I disagree. The article is on a consumer product, in a consumer category. The reason the RFC was started was to find consensus because the words were constantly being changed and reverted. QuackGuru seems to be at the center and yes as DocJames pointed out I make a lot of edits. But in defence I dont just make one edit to add something but usually have to make 4 or so to get it right. The actions of QuackGuru are disruptive to the article because they seek to put an ephisis on a limited consensus, that he broke, through a twisting of the facts. They are classic WP:IDHT because other editors besides myself have told him he is not correct. Yet he adds them again and again. The adding of a subsection is just trying to draw attention to the lie. He is a disruptive editor in a controversy. AlbinoFerret 17:02, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I am involved with both AF and QG at the article, but I am not seeing evidence presented here of genuine disruptive editing that rises to the level that it needs an indef block... not anything even close. This is a garden-variety content dispute that doesn't belong at ANI. Zad68 16:30, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

At the least an indefinite topic ban, but I think a block is more appropriate because of the wide scope of disruptive editing he has engaged in and has had numerous bans of time. He just refuses to learn that he cant do it, its WP:IDHT. He has been topic banned from Electronic cigarette before. The time needs to seriously escalate because of repeated problems. AlbinoFerret 17:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Having tried to review some of this (and at its WP:FT/N appearance) I'm having a hard time understanding why there's such a fight over it. The argument over "mist" versus "aerosol" is supremely pointless given that any layperson is going to implicitly understand them to be the same; "vapor" at least would be understood to be something different but it's clear enough that the scientific literature states that there is more than vaporization going on, and that therefore the scientific statements have priority over advertizing or popular impressions. I do not understand why you have the bit in your teeth about this. Mangoe (talk) 18:12, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

The issue that everyone is focusing on is there is a controversy, thats not been disputed, but what actions QuackGuru is engaging in during the discussions are the problem imho, WP:IDHT and clear WP:AGF violations where he has accused me of WP:ADVOCACY without a shred of evidence, and trying to bias the responders to the RFC with attention grabbing embellishments and a twisting of the history. The question shouldn't be why is there a conflict, but why is QuackGuru acting as he is during a conflict. AlbinoFerret 18:19, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

AF, the page has been full of WP:IDHT. I can see that QG hasn't been a model of AGF towards you. I think the whole page needs to be left to calm down a bit, sadly there's no way that would happen. SPACKlick (talk) 18:28, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

There was a listening to others. There was a compromise on the lede, that was limited to the lede. I was happy with leaving the rest of the page use whatever the source said. I was happy letting the specific section that had a specific common word use that word that was most appropriate. QuackGuru as chronicled above broke that agreement by going and changing vapor to mist in sections he did not edit leaving aerosol alone in other parts of the article. The RFC may seem silly to some, but the conflict on the page made it necessary. He is now trying to improperly influence the RFC with embellishments and a twisting of the history. He keeps adding it. Others have engaged in discussion, he has not and its a clear case of WP:IDHT because I am not the only person to tell him so. AlbinoFerret 18:37, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I am involved with both Albino and QuackGuru, vaguely, on the talk page and I have to say whilst i could understand someone finding QuackGuru a bit of a pain and he certainly treads close to POV pushing at times and can be a bit abrasive,I haven't seen anything which looked like it would warrant sanctions. SPACKlick (talk) 18:17, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret's complaints here fit his long history of lobbying for terms not supported by best sources. It's also an obvious attempt at retribution. "I think a large boomerang should hit you" etc. make it pretty clear this is about AlbinoFerret, not QuackGuru.

This is at best a garden-variety content dispute that doesn't belong at ANI. Cloudjpk (talk) 19:19, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Obvious retaliatory thread is obvious. Baseball Bugs has pretty much hit it on the head. Of all things to fight over, editors are fighting over the different use of three words that mean the same thing. I wonder how long it will take them to realise how ridiculous they look. Blackmane (talk) 22:30, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree that a good deal of the evidence presented so far has been content related, but some of it is genuinely conduct related and there are still long-term issues with QuackGuru's conduct that need addressing. I have noticed that QuackGuru has made an effort to improve since being blocked the last time, but his editing is still frequently WP:TENDENTIOUS, lacking in WP:COMPETENCE and sometimes bordering on WP:OWN. Likewise his contributions to discussions and attempts to collaborate are often inadequate and/or disruptive in themselves. I appreciate that Quack seems to have made an attempt to improve but it is still often almost impossible to collaborate with him and reach any sort of consensus.

Here are some evidence for these conclusions although do bear in mind that rarely is a single one of Quack's edits the problem, the problem is more a pattern of edits over a long time span, making it very difficult to collect all of the evidence:

[In this example] QuackGuru makes the accusation that AlbinoFerret has filed a "fake" 3RR violation (whatever that may mean) in the middle of a discussion regarding sections. This is disruptive and WP:PERSONAL.

[here] QuackGuru is made aware of adding exact copies of sources and/or failing to paraphrase, which could potentially lead to legal (copyright) issues for Wikipedia. He seems to struggle get this point and unfortunately a week later is still needing to be warned to [change another sentence]. This is a WP:COMPETENCE issue.

WP:CONSENSUS / collaborating in discussions - [Here] QuackGuru states "If it does not matter to you then will you stop discussing this".

[Here] QuackGuru complains that changing "can" to may" was not explained and demands an explanation (the way he does it is rude and bordering on WP:OWN) is provided to him, after receiving a reply QuackGuru states "Both can and may is OR".

In this example, QuackGuru merged some subsections stating that this was necessary in order to prevent "promotion" of e-cigarettes. After I politely inferred a more detailed explanation be provided, QuackGuru simply stated [I removed the repetitive text"] in reference to an entirely different edit.

Later in the discussion, after a point was raised regarding sourcing by another editor, QuackGuru gives [another entirely different argument] as to why there should not be subsections.

When given the chance to resolve the dispute at DNR, QuackGuru stated in his [dispute summary] that "The problems were already explained at Talk:Electronic_cigarette#Removal_of_bullet_points_in_a_list_and_renaming_the_section. Now editors can work together to remove the unreliable sources from the construction section."

[here] is another example of disruptive editing / WP:COMPETENT issues. In this discussion the original poster is as polite as possible and gives a detailed request for information. Quack gives a 5 word explanation for his edit, "I removed the SYN violation". It turns out Quack is just misunderstanding policy/the edit but continues to insist that he is right because of a different reason (the word "some" was changed to "may") and then yet another different reason, even after it is pointed out to Quack that he has done the exact same thing himself in another part of the article.

This continuous changing of goalposts and avoidance of genuine discussion is very disruptive (WP:TENDENTIOUS) and often makes it impossible to resolve any disagreements. This post is not a retaliatory action on my part or done for the desire of seeing someone removed from a content dispute, I am genuinely frustrated with Quack's protracted disruptive editing.Levelledout (talk) 00:54, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

As with many long comments full of clever links to WP:TENDENTIOUS + WP:COMPETENCE + WP:OWN + more, the above has very little content.

Someone needs to throttle the rate of editing/commenting relating to this topic because the bustle is not matched by improvements to the article. AlbinoFerret has made 393 edits at Electronic cigarette and 1005 edits Talk:Electronic cigarette and at least another 200 edits relating to e-cigs on noticeboards. All that has happened since 30 September 2014. That is over 1598 edits related to e-cigs in 52 days (30 edits per day). This complaint about Quackguru appears to be no more than a retaliation to one of QG's opponents being indeffed above. Johnuniq (talk) 01:51, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Appearances can be deceiving, especially when you assume things. The rate of improvements to the article would increase and posts to talk pages would decrease if a QuackGuru's disruptive actions on the article and interaction on the talk page stopped. Its death by a thousand cuts. I have also explained that I rarely make one edit and leave. Even on talk pages. I fix my comments sometimes 4 and 5 times before the comment is done. A look at the history will prove that.

This is not about Cheesy getting blocked, its because of a continuous pattern of problems. I am a Christian who follows the Bible to the best of my ability. Cheesy had issues but, I am a firm believer that people can change. I was following "Open thy mouth for the dumb, in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction". Cheesy wasnt a "friend" but an acquaintance on a talk page. I am not doing this because Cheesy got blocked.

Unfortunately in QuackGuru's case he hasnt changed even though he has been given chances to change in the past. Its a steady adding of problem on top of problem. He has comprehension issues that add to the problems. I have talked about bringing him here and here way before Cheesy was blocked. I have added a lot of diff's above, the underlying issue may have been content. But the edits on the page and the sections linked above clearly show that the problem I am talking about isnt the disagreement with content on the page, but the but the way he acts when there is a problem. User:Levelledout has a better way with words, and hit the nail on the head. AlbinoFerret 02:38, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Note that QuackGuru did not file the complaint against CheesyAppleFlake or even contribute to the discussion. I also condemn CheesyAppleFlake's actions that got them blocked. I agree that there are issues with editing at the e-cigarette article being disrupted although that is not specifically what is being discussed here. By the way QuackGuru himself has made about 38 edits in the past 24 hours relating to the e-cigarette article.Levelledout (talk) 02:41, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

The edit counts are not important (although they show excessive enthusiasm), but for the record QG has 328 edits at the article and 365 at its talk, from 30 September 2014 (total 15/day); QG's first edit was at 20 April 2014 and from that date the edits are 459 + 404. Johnuniq (talk) 03:03, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Here is a prime example of WP:IDHT copied from the talk page. This type of discussion is commonplace in any discussion including QuackGuru. He just doesnt listen. Its disruptive.

According to you it is original research to change aerosol to vapor. You claimed aerosol is not a synonym of vapor but according to this change[131] you did replace aerosol with vapor. Do you think it is original research to change aerosol to vapor (or mist) and do you think vapor should be used throughout the body of the article no matter what the source says? QuackGuru (talk) 18:45, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

This is bait and switch. You are saying again that I am claiming it is original research. I never have and I already explained this to you.diff[132] But you dont here it WP:IDHT The diffs you use dont prove the accusations you are levelling. This diff has clear comments on it "change sentence to avoid copyright problems" that mention "copyright issues". This diff has clear comments on it that the change was "change to be consistent" or consistency with the rest of the article according to the agreement that you broke.AlbinoFerret 19:46, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

You claimed we are using another source to correct another source. You previously wrote "We are not permitted to use one source to correct others. That would be WP:OR."[133] However, This diff shows your replaced aerosol with vapor. Your edit summary claims it was a copyright issue but you changed it because it appears you wanted to use the word vapor. You edit showed at the time you did think aerosol and vapor are synonyms. Editors want to use commonsense and use more neutral wording or more accurate synonyms in accordance with NPOV. QuackGuru (talk) 03:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

We have went over this art least once. You dont seem to get it. I explained why you are wrong yet you still persist. Here is the answer I gave yesterday on why I went to the OR board. I never claimed anything, I simply asked a question for information. Here is what I told you yesterday:

"I have suspicions that it may be OR based on a question I asked yesterday on the OR notice board. But since it is such a difficult question I was seeking information on if it was OR before bringing it up here. I dont like sticking my foot in my mouth as you just did here claiming one thing, when in fact it is another."

I changed the word because of a copyright issue, the whole sentance was a close copy of the source, I should have changed it more. We have gone over this quite a few times in the past. AlbinoFerret 03:46, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Your edit changed it to vapor but what did the source say? You changed it because you also preferred the synonym vapor over aerosol. Why would anyone think synonyms could be an OR issue? QuackGuru (talk) 03:58, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Its endless, you cant discuss anything with him. He goes on and on, and on, on the same thing, over, and over, and over again. If there is an issue with his edits for any reason, its endless rounds in circles trying to explain whats wrong. Then when he possibly gets it, he insists you make the changes. Here is a whole section of the talk page where he just doesnt seem to get it. I can find a lot more sections just like it, like this one. The issue isnt a content disagreement. Its the disruptions caused by bringing up problems he inserts like copyright violations. He insists on the wording he copied in. He will misapply WP:OR if its changed. This ends up seriously harming the article and hampering the work done on it. AlbinoFerret 04:04, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I too have been involved in editing and discussion of this article and have been frustrated by QG's attitude. The unrelenting disruptive editing makes any substantive progress in the article impossible. QuackGuru's history of POV-pushing [134] and WP:OWNership issues [135] and his rather lengthy block log for similar behavior seem to suggest that it is unlikely he will change his ways or learn how to edit collaboratively. Mihaister (talk) 06:02, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Today was like a lot of others in the past. Quackguru added a copyright violation, again.Link Quackguru argued over the difference between ["several" and "a few". Switched it back to several calling it WP:OR. QuackGuru switched back a good edit because of ownership issues, first tagging it as WP:OR Then changing the the word to "ultrafine partials" two minutes later from an edit to "droplets" diff. But a aerosol or vapor is made up of tiny droplets. The claim was in the lede, its supposed to be simple there was a great deal of working together to simplify the section before. Its one step forward, and three steps back. AlbinoFerret 01:08, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret's continued, endless, complaints here are much like what he puts in the Talk page. I find them tiresome, WP:TENDENTIOUS, vindictive, and seldom justified by the facts. Some here amount to just plain false accusations. I believe boomerang applies. I propose a lengthy block for AlbinoFerret. Cloudjpk (talk) 02:08, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Petty? No, just demonstrating the continued disruptive editing and postings on the talk page. GuackGuru has been editing a long time, but still dose not paraphrase, even though its been gone over with him numerous times. This puts WP at risk because of copyright issues. He also continuously misuses WP:OR to justify changing edits back to words he gets fixated on. This isnt about me but the article, and how its being disrupted and how WP is put at risk.

Vindictive? No., but I think I know who is. Its amazing the amount of times you suddenly appear to defend QuackGuru. I also question this comment on the talk page section where only you and QuackGuru take one side of a discussion. Link You make this comment "We need not rely entirely on Cheng.". We? Yes you and your friend QuackGuru. You both are the only editors taking the same point of view. I cant remember ever seeing an editor say "We", its always "I". AlbinoFerret 04:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there's need to cast aspersions AF, remember to WP:AGF. However, I am coming to the view that QG is causing a lot of difficulties in improving the article. Very territorial, Very POV. The whole Mist debacle is a good example. The fact that with no respect for WP:Weight he will include any speculation in a WP:RS that's negative to e-cigs, going so far as to create a new section just to say "We also don't know that they don't damage the environment" based on one source. It's difficult to work there at the moment. I think QG may need some time to cool off and AF, you're taking things personally. QG may be pushing your buttons but you're letting them be pushed. You could probably also do with some time to cool off. SPACKlick (talk) 14:43, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

@SPACKlick: The statement above, which I just struck, was in response to accusations of a similar nature that were levelled against me. While its factual and has some proof behind it, I will take the high road and take it out. As for pushing buttons, its a fact and I have made a effort to stop letting it happen as much. I do have an area that I have to draw the line at, placing WP at risk with copyright issues, it cant be allowed to continue and has to be addressed every time. AlbinoFerret 16:08, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Will somebody please, please, please put a 2 week block on editing of this article by any and all editors The level of inflexibility, refusal to compromise, and bickering has simply gone off the charts. If this keeps up, David Healy is going to put an article on his blog suggesting an investigation into the role of SSRIs in this behavior. Formerly 98 (talk) 20:21, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Do you think that would actually help though? I mean from everything I've witnessed so far that would probably result in everybody picking up where they left off in two weeks time. I'm sure that a psuedo-science article (can't remember which one, acupuncture maybe??) was recently put into some sort of special measures by an administrator and I'm starting to think that might be needed on the e-cigarette article. Basically absolute zero-tolerance of certain policy violations, 1RR to prevent edit-warring, etc.Levelledout (talk) 06:10, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Levelledout, two days wont help anything. The refusal to compromise pre-dates my first edit on the article if the archives are any proof. It looks like he is also right on acupuncture from the look of the talk page there. Its also one of the articles QuackGuru edits regularly. AlbinoFerret 08:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

This is Exactly the problem, Albino You explain this childish conflict that has taken over your life with comments like "I explained to editor XYZ that he was wrong, and he still didn't accept my point of view" or "Oh, we're still fighting because the other side won't see reason". Honest to god, its time to fucking grow up. Nobody gives a shit a←bout this and we all tire of the endless bickering. Walk away from the keyboard, take your wife out to dinner, get a hobby and forget Wikipedia exists for 2 weeks. Electronic cigarettes will not be banned as a result of your failure to bicker with Quack for 2 weeks. Or for the rest of your life for that matter. I don't know how to put it any plainer. Formerly 98 (talk) 20:53, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Although I can understand the general frustration, I don't think these comments are particularly helpful. The more I try and step back and think about this multiple editors are involved in the problems and eradicating one or even two of them is actually unlikely to improve the article. The feuding pre-dates AF's involvement and goes back as long as I have been trying to edit the article. We need to find a way forward, a block on all editing is all very well but it needs to followed up by very strict enforcement of WP:CONSENSUS, 1RR and possibly some other core policies like WP:NPOV in addition to close monitoring of all editors' conduct in general. I don't like authoritarian measures more than anybody else but something needs to be done, this is the only thing I can think of. Somehow we need to get to point where editors actually make genuine efforts to reach WP:CONSENSUS as opposed to simply taking sides and adopting battleground mentality.Levelledout (talk) 01:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Paperzz.com: useful or spammy?

Not sure about this one: At first contributions from 80.249.180.3 seemed like 100% citation spamming replacement, but for dead links. But the first two new URLs I checked really do have archived content, though one has to work some (2-3 clicks) to get it; if there are advertisements, I don't see them (thanks to AdBlock).

Anyone see a problem here? —EncMstr (talk) 16:10, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I visited the first link in their recent contributions and disabled AdBlock. No ads that I saw after a quick look and I didn't have to do anything more than just click the link to access the content (dadletter.pdf in this case). Seems fine to me. Non-admin comment demize (t · c) 19:26, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I also didn't need any extra clicks, but I did run into a heap of ads. I'm inclined to say the replacements are both useful and spam; the two aren't mutually exclusive. Better replacements, like the Wayback Archive, should be preferred if available. Sideways713 (talk) 21:03, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

From what I've seen in the past, where dead links are replaced with links to copied versions of the content, is that the new link will someday be replaced with an advertisement. Deli nk (talk) 18:15, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yes, we should find better archives, then. I'll help if I can. —PC-XT+ 10:30, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Operation Zarb-e-Azb

• TheSawTooth
• Faizan

I'm having a problem with two aggressive P.O.V. pushers who are now bombing my talk page with inapplicable warnings. [136] [137] Users TheSawTooth and Faizan keep on adding "Afghan terrorists" and "Afghan militants" as belligerents in the infobox of Operation Zarb-e-Azb, [138] [139] which are unsupported by the cited sources (I've read them all). I recently started a discussion on its talk to have this attack on Afghans removed because the reports simply don't mention Afghan terrorists or Afghan militants but these two editors won't allow me. [140] I also added a latest New York Times article explaining that the operation has thus far resulted in 1.5 million Pakistanis becoming displaced. About 250,000 of them were forced into taking shelter in Afghanistan. [141] This is obviously important information as it involves the lives of so many civilians and very relevant to the article but TheSawTooth removed it. [142] I recommend TheSawTooth be blocked for disruption, it was created less than a month ago and has already engaged in edit-wars with multiple editors. I also feel that Faizan be blocked for P.O.V. pushing and deliberate source falsification. This will teach him that falsifying information in articles based on personal feelings is not accepted in Wikipedia otherwise he will continue and create more problems. I don't enjoy seeing editors get blocked and that's not the reason I'm here, but these two are asking for it. I warned them to stop but they took it as a joke. We are probably dealing with this guy ("Chronic sockpuppeteer who primarily attacks and disrupts articles on India-Pakistan-Afghanistan (often Military History) with a Pro-Pakistani bias.)").--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 16:36, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

See also:

• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:TheSawTooth_reported_by_User:Widefox_.28Result:_No_action.29
• WP:ANI#Harassment_by_Widefox
• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive862#Active_sockfarm_linked_to_Morning277 (not relevant)
• Final warning(s) for disruption [143], [144]. Widefox; talk 19:00, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I did not revise after last warning widefox why are you putting same report everywhere? Faizan and Krzyhorse22 have this dispute. I came later. --TheSawTooth (talk) 19:34, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Krazy horse made first edit in his life at administrator notice board [145]. He knew what sock puppet is at that time? How can new user go to noticeboard and report another user without knowing wikipedia users? I am still learning and I have stopped edit war. Now I do two revisions not more. He is not replying to Faizan on talkpage after 5 november but he wants to revise this main page. --TheSawTooth (talk) 19:47, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I have told admins here in the past that my first edit was nominating an unfree image of Mullah Omar back in August which was deleted along with my first edits. You think first edit of a new editor should be putting "hi" on own page like you did on 27 October? [146] Don't bring up outdated and irrelevant information to this discussion. I'm not concerned about you being new or abusing multiple accounts (that's a different issue), you're plainly an aggressive P.O.V. pusher engaged in edit-wars with multiple editors. This is the problem I'm addressing here. Tell admins why you're adding "Afghan terrorists" and "Afghan militants" in the article Operation Zarb-e-Azb, when the sources do not support it? Also, explain why you removed the latest NY Times report about the 1.5 million displaced Pakistanis? Is it because you don't like people to read that the operation created such a massive problem for the native Pakistani civilians? Is someone paying you or telling you to remove this particular information? Please explain.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 22:22, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

To me only a sock can make his first edit at ANI calling another user as a sock. In-fact bringing a content dispute to ANI is another attempt to create a melo-drama. This is not a drama board. You could solve these issues at the article's talk, I tried my best to stay away from conflicts and took a Wikibreak but he is hounding me and dragging me to conflicts, just as User:Lagoo sab used to do in his time. Probably he is back. I have started an SPI here. Regarding the content disputes he has not cooperated on the article's talk since November 5. He tried to add insult to injury by calling all users with usernames starting with "Faizan" as my socks. Content dispute be solved at the appropriate talk-pages or dispute resolution or third-party comments. Regarding the number of IDPs, there have been different disputed figures. For example this source, it gives varying disputed figures. So please do not try to get content disputes into ANI. Faizan 17:22, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

In his last comments at the concerned article's talk, he accused all Pakistanis of terrorism and Pakistan as a terrorist sponsoring state from the point of view of every knowledgeable person. And it caused the harassment of Pakistanis. I am not a nationalist, but calling a whole country as terrorist bothers me, and that's why I left a message on his talk. Faizan 17:36, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Regarding "dragging me to conflicts, just as User:Lagoo sab used to do in his time", please provide a diff to verify that. The last time you commented on the talk was November 5 [147] and it's now November 20 so bringing the issue here was appropriate. You can accuse me of sockpuppet but that isn't going to change the fact that you're an aggressive P.O.V. pusher falsifying information in Operation Zarb-e-Azb. I didn't call any country a terrorist, you're the one adding "Afghan terrorists" in an article and citing sources that don't support it. This is source falsification and it seems you're an expert at this. This is the issue at hand here and in the talk of the article.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 20:38, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Regarding this, one can't help it but to suspect sockpupptry when he spots this and this.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 20:58, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually it's you who is edit-warring with multiple users, including me, User:TheSawTooth and User:Saadkhan12345. Your last edit on Talk:Operation Zarb-e-Azb was on November 5, which was infact an accusation of terrorism on all Pakistanis, harassing and personally attacking them, and since then you have not replied to the concerns raised by SawTooth. If you think it's the case of source falsification, this is not the appropriate forum. What's the similarity in my edits and that of nehal that you tried to portray here. Completely tragic. Faizan 08:45, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

No. You're falsely accusing me I'm not edit warring with anyone. There's nothing more for me to explain at Talk:Operation Zarb-e-Azb, you added "Afghan terrorists" but none of the sources you cite support your illogical opinion. I was expressing my opinion about Terrorism in Pakistan which is often highlighted in major news reports. [148] I'm practicing my freedom of speech (I'm American and Wikipedia is based in America), that's not an attack on anyone and such information cannot be censored, see WP:CENSOR. Only if admins say you're not related to User:Faizannehal and User:Faizanalivarya can I be satisfied.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 16:25, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Another IAC sock

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Romana Busse (talk · contribs) has just appeared and is another of the India Against Corruption sock/meatfarm (WP:LTA/IAC). Anyone fancy blocking now? I can provide info by email if desired. - Sitush (talk) 06:17, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I am verifiably Romana Busse as Sitush has found from some Whois. Sitush is sexually harassing me by passing lewd and sexually coloured remarks. Why can't Sitush's information be shared publicly. Romana Busse (talk) 06:25, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Can some admin block this latest IAC avatar, Romana Busse, now apparently piggybacking on the GGTF arbcom case ? Blocking admin: please make sure that talk-page access is also removed, since it will inevitably be abused otherwise. Background Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/India Against Corruption sock-meatfarm. Also pinging @Bishonen, Sitush, and Voceditenore: who should be able to verify the quacking.

PS Given the puppetmaster's confirmed record of real life harrassment and filing of lawsuits (not just legal threats), I don't intend to inform the account of this ANI discussion myself. Abecedare (talk) 06:22, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Just merged this with my earlier section. Email needs to be disabled also. - Sitush (talk) 06:24, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

The police complaint I filed for child pornography was against the Wikimedia India Chapter (an autonomous organisation). The complaint has no mention of Sitush or Wikipedia or Wikimedia Foundation or India Against Corruption. I have no link with India Against Corruption. Romana Busse (talk) 06:28, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Please block / ban Sitush for OUTING my real world identity on [149]. Now he is trying to erase / hide the OUTING and cover his tracks. Romana Busse (talk) 06:37, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• Please block Romana Busse ASAP because the pathetic attempts to sling mud with completely bogus claims about good editors are disruptive. Prior incarnations of WP:LTA/IAC have concocted lies about copyvios, and now they are resorting to an old favorite of sex. Johnuniq (talk) 06:39, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• EXTRACT OF OUTING / Stalking "Actually, I now know that you are a sock/meat. Whois is a wonderful thing. You will be blocked very shortly, I am sure. - Sitush (talk) 05:57, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• ... I am sure any such Whois will also show a social privacy organisation I work with and which contains my complete verifiable address and my assertion of privacy protection to defend against stalkers and Arbcom sanctioned abusers of women like you. Romana Busse (talk) 06:02, 20 November 2014 (UTC)" Romana Busse (talk) 06:44, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• I have been AFK for some time for reasons of health, but Romana's behavior on-wiki combined with Romana's behavior on gendergap-l are enough to convince me that she is likely an IAC sock, and if not, can be justifiably blocked for not being here to contribute productively to the encyclopedia anyway (her emails to gendergap-l threatened to sue arbcom members.) As such, I have indeffed her. Kevin Gorman (talk) 06:53, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

 Done by Kevin Gorman and me.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:55, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• Clearly a sock. The "sexual harassment" charges against Sitush have been a part of their campaign for over a month as has their on- and off-wiki harassment of a female WMF trustee and another female Indian editor active in WMF initiatives via posts on the Wikimediaindia-l mailing list and at the WMF websites. Here on Wikipedia, observe "Duffycharles"'s edits here (where he claims that "Lindashiers" has filed a sexual harassment suit with the WMF) and here (where he issues legal threats against the Trustee). Voceditenore (talk) 09:29, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• Gee, I had to be asleep, not fair. I would have liked to be the one to block this time, for more reasons than one. Bishonen | talk 10:08, 20 November 2014 (UTC).

• It was a bit like buses in the UK, bish: nothing turns up for a while, then two turn up at once ;) - Sitush (talk) 10:14, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Another one

‎PhilipRothman (talk · contribs)

Any admins interested in this game of whack-a-mole, should watchlist the Sarbajit Roy RFD. Abecedare (talk) 21:05, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Indeffed by Secret. --Richard Yin (talk) 21:28, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

And another

Prof Ravi IIT Kanpur (talk · contribs)

Another duck continuing debate on RFD talk page after main RFD page was semi-protected. The RFD has been closed as delete, so there is some hope of a reprieve. Abecedare (talk) 15:51, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Bishonen was AGF'ing on that one. Since her last post on her talk page, I noted this. IIT Kanpur is, btw, a hotbed for IAC. - Sitush (talk) 15:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Further violation of interaction ban and incivility by The Rambling Man at ITN, etc

Well, once again, in violation of our iban, User:The Rambling Man has quoted (with quote marks!) and responded to me directly at ITN nominations: "For the fiftieth time". Given the Iban I am not going to put a notice on his talk page, but he's been mentioned, and I invite an admin to notify him for me. Apparently the last ANI was entirely ignored, as were User:Newyorkbrad's warnings today to TRM to stop the personal comments:

• that you should stop sullying this page with gratuitous personal comments
• As a sidenote, the personal comments on this page have to cease

and these edits and their edit summaries of TRM's:

• oh dear Jayron
• oh, what a surprise
• do what Brad says, he's Arbcom after all
• you're the pest

which show a pattern of unnecessary incivility.

Note also this comment by User:SemanticMantis on the Ref Desk talk page: I don't know what you do elsewhere on WP but when you seem only show up on the ref desk to disparage said desk.

So what am I to do, just put up with iban violations, or ignore the iban and respond in kind? My understanding is that TRM is both an admin and a sysop. Is this appropriate behavior? I request the minimum of a warning block, to stop this behavior. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 21:08, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• Notified--v/r - TP 21:18, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• The comments on Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#.5BReady.5D_RD:_Mike_Nichols are really out of bounds. Drmies (talk) 06:11, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Let us note that on his user page, TRM first

• blanked it in response to this complaint, then restored it with the comment he'd be away for two days, during which he himself expects a block:
• "restore and add note regarding intermittent availability, should i be blocked in absentia"

Meanwhile, on his talk page he dismissed (and deleted) notification of the ANI case and his fellow editors and admins with:

• "more hilarity, more circus games, i'll continue to make decent articles while the parade continues"

And on Newyorkbrad's homepage (NYB has expressed his wish to remain impartial) TRM describes himself as "disagreeing" and me as "abusing":

• "It'd be rewarding to see how such esteemed members of the hierarchy treat content editors who just vocalise their disagreement, while completely ignoring others who directly abuse people." That is, he is just talking civil, while I am attacking him and admins are ignoring me? When NYB merely asks for civil discussion, TRM responds
• "if you didn't just wade in and act like a schoolmaster"

This sounds like a confession and a retreat mixed with, "It's not me, it's Medeis and the admins." See "you're the pest" above. μηδείς (talk) 07:10, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm loathe to respond to these kangaroo proceedings, but given the plethora of false assumptions and incorrect assertions I see (yet again), and given the absolute stone cold intensity with which some users wish to see me "punished", I felt compelled, even today, my son's first birthday, to say a couple of things. I (as well as many many others) have become sick and tired of the self-centred approach, the "why always me?" claims, the incorrect assumptions being hurled around so often at ANI. Some users wish to have their cake and eat it, as evidenced in the multiple responses to the last time I was dragged here. I'm certain if Jayron or NYB have a real problem with me, they are more than capable of doing something about it themselves. Jayron and I frequently have robust discussion, no-one dies and everyone survives to the next time. NYB on the other hand appears from time to time to believe he can sweep into ITN and do exactly as he pleases (usually regarding posting poor quality articles on recently deceased Americans from the movie industry). Indeed, NYB's insistence on threatening to make illegitimate posts has been rejected by four, maybe five different admins in the past. When it comes to ITN, he's just an editor, nothing more.

Regarding the policy issue, some users need to be continually reminded that claiming specific policies at ITN is actually factually incorrect. We have policies, guidelines, essays etc. There is a clear difference in the significance of each of these, it's worthwhile understanding that.

Finally, I added the holiday notice to my page because, yes, I'm taking my son out for his first birthday and wanted people to know that I'd be unlikely to respond to the current pack of misrepresentations, leave alone any more incorrect claims which may be dug up throughout the day. I restored some of the content with something of an ironic edit summary. Sorry if some users didn't understand that, I must try harder to ensure our "global" audience gets it. Finally, unlike one of the bogus claims above, I have never named any user as being "abusing". If some users wish to assume it to be in reference to them, that is entirely their problem, and they should try hard to address their insecurities. It was, in fact, with reference to those editors who swear at others, who edit war with them etc. If a user believes they meet that profile, bingo.

Have a good day all, I'm going to the big smoke for lunch with the little 'un. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the first accusation re the interaction ban violation (that this edit was a direct response to Medeis), it doesn't look to be the case. I read the response as being directed at Masem, and actually supporting what Medeis said. Number 57 13:47, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• Of all the diffs above, two are allegedly violations of the IBAN. The rest are alleged incivility, to other editors than μηδείς, and pretty tame by the standards we see here. Am I right?

Of the diffs regarding the IBAN, I'm struggling to see the violation in the first one - TRM and μηδείς are making similar points about the lack of policy, but I'm struggling to see it as TRM interacting with μηδείς. The second one might be construed as a violation, I guess - responding to NewYorkBrad who was responding to μηδείς. It's not exactly smoking gun material, though.

I've a great deal of respect for both these editors, and a TBAN for both from ITN would be a great loss to ITN. But it seems that the IBAN hasn't helped cool things down between them. Any suggestions for other ways of cooling things down? GoldenRing (talk) 13:55, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

There is no justification for a TBAN. First, there's no complaint against me, no diffs, and no reason to ban me, since I have not commented once on TRM, while he has on me, as well as reversions, etc. Second, TRM is perfectly capable of doing good work on ITN, all he needs to do is stop addressing me. Third, any such TBAN would be pointless, as we still both edit many overlapping pages. The solution is clear and simple: enforce the IBAN that's already in place. μηδείς (talk) 19:39, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• Since I was summoned, I might as well make some brief comments. It would be nice if TRM tried to influence discussions by the strength of his arguments, and could also quietly let other people have opinions which differ from him. It's only the ad hominem diversions that create a problem, that and his deliberate attempts to poison the well against people who don't hold the identical opinion he does. Otherwise, I don't really care what happens. TRM makes himself more and more irrelevant the more he behaves in uncooperative ways. It would be nice if he could become a more effective person who was able to actually create the important changes he wants to; but his treatment of others prevents him from being successful in ways that would benefit the encyclopedia. --Jayron32 14:16, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

^I'll support this. I only know TRM from the ref desks, and it seems he could be a big help there, but he doesn't choose to. That's fine, we spend time where we want. Whatever his abilities and skills are, it seems that TRM has managed to step on a few toes. Then again so has Medeis. If I could hand out sentencing I would give TRM and Medeis both a trouting, remind them both to respect the IBAN, and hope that they learn that a more cooperative attitude would make both of their efforts more productive. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:38, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

You people created your own monster. The Rambling Man, a productive editor and an admin, is perfectly justified in expecting the Rule of Corbett (i.e. productivity means you can be as rude as you like) to apply to him as well, and I can't say I blame him. The only difference is he doesn't appear to have the squads of acolytes and fawning admins ready to fall on their swords in his defense. What a joke! --Drmargi (talk) 19:13, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

No, the rule defines a "valuable contributor" as one with acolytes. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• I won't be able to comment at length or research the diffs for about 12 hrs from now, but the issue here really is violations of the iban by TRM. The incivility is just part of the pattern. There have been previous iban violations by TRM, and a previous ANI that documented them in October. I'll search the archives tonight. The "for the fiftieth time" and quotation of the word policy in the edit above was directed at me. He quoted me, and my occassional use of the word policy has been a bugaboo of his apparently for over a year now, hence his "for the fiftieth time" statement. I'll look for these comments tonight, can someone tell me how to search for the use of the word policy by TRM on the ITN nomination page only? I find searching the history of that page very difficult. Bottom line, TRM has repeatedly been warned not to interact with me and continued to do so, I have made no comments regarding him. He should be treated like any other editor would who violated an IBAN. μηδείς (talk) 19:34, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Several people above have agreed that TRM is too snarky (add me to that list), but is there any chance that you could stop to contemplate that what TRM said about policy is totally correct? He did not address you, and writing "policy" is just a standard use of scare quotes. Being snarky is a problem. But so too is failing to grasp fundamentals such as use of policy. Johnuniq (talk) 02:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Copyright violations by a sockpuppet

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Irmovies was blocked indef a couple of weeks ago following a mass creation/addition of copyright material relating to Persian cinema. Now Mattewina is doing the same sort of edits. This article has a clear copyvio plot, along with several other articles. Their account was created on the 14th November and then 3 days and six edits later, they are creating brand-new articles on Iranian films. WP:DUCK is quacking like mad. Can someone take a look while I clear up the WP:COPYVIO issues? Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 12:44, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Fram's block of User:Amss125

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Amss125 created a a large number of articles, which all took a great degree of effort and time, relating to different bus stops in Norway. Each article was nominated for deletion for being non-notable and you can see the discussion taking place here which is fine, I even contributed to the discussion. However, the user (who I feel was only trying to enhance the project in good faith) was blocked for disruptive editing without a single warning. It bugs me that he was treated worse than a traditional vandal who generally gets some kind of warning before being blocked. I've brought it up with Fram, but looking through their talk page history, she's previously been brought to ANI for similar trigger happy incidents. She claims he had plenty of warnings with the numerous AfD templates on his talk page but since all the articles were based on bus stops in Norway, there's a possibility he didn't even speak english! I believe there was a distinct lack of assuming good faith, a massive douse of biting and inappropriate use of admin tools — BranStark (talk) 13:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Looking at this a bit longer, I agree that my block of Amss125 for 24 hours was inappropriate. It should have been an indef block as a block-evading sock of User:Leee84. @Rettetast:, as the admin who blocked that editor, can you confirm my very strong suspicions? First edit of Amss is creating Template:50 most populous metropolitan areas of Norway (not really a common first edit). Third edit, seven minutes later, is adding Template:Most populous metropolitan areas in Norway to bergen: note that this is not the template he just created, but a template created by Leee84. And then, compare this edit by Leee84 (the drug and porno statement) with this edit to the same article by Amss125. Both edits, which were undone as good faith edits, should probably be oversighted (or at least rev-deled) as very serious BLP violations. Fram (talk) 13:47, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Note: it looks as if blocked editor User:Krsno was an earlier incarnation of this editor as well. Fram (talk) 13:56, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Despite all this, which you've discovered after the block (and yes, it does all seem pretty conclusive), you still blocked him without a warning for "disruptive editing". — BranStark (talk) 14:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Which shows that my disruptive editing radar works pretty well... By the way, you said that I had "previously been brought to ANI for similar trigger happy incidents." Can you link to these, so I and others can see whether there is a pattern, and what the frequency is, and what the conclusion of these earlier reports was? As far as I recall, my most disputed blocks were completely different, things like a block of Eric Corbett (which, no matter if my block was right or wrong or something in between, is not comparable to this situation at all). Fram (talk) 14:12, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I was referring to your only warning message here — BranStark (talk) 14:17, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Which, again, is a completely different situation: no one was blocked, a warning was given, and it was not some clueless newbie biting, but a WMF employee. That doesn't mean that I was right or wrong, but to see some similarities between the block of an uncommunicative "newbie" with loads of soon-to-be-deleted new articles, and the warning of a WMF employee over WMF-related stuff and discussions, only because both end up at ANI, is grasping at straws (or poisoning the well, whichever you prefer). Fram (talk) 14:29, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

"The block of an uncommunicative "newbie"" - this is exactly my problem! Granted since the block, new sockpuppetry evidence has come to light and I'm pretty sure your suspicions will be confirmed. However, you still blocked this individual, for what? Not replying to a couple of AfD template messages? — BranStark (talk) 15:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Not replying to anything, not the AFD or Prod templates nor a personalised message, and continuing with the creation of articles after it should have been clear to every slightly attentive editor that there was much opposition and very little support for them. Note how the editor created Festningsgata/Tolbodgata (bus stop) with the AfD template in place! So it's not as if the editor didn't return to any pages and never saw the AfD notices (and somehow missed all the talk page messages as well), he simply didn't care (he also e.g. edited an article after it had been AfD nominated as well, again evidence that he had seen the notes). When all an editor does is creating pointless work for other editors, and there is no indication that his behaviour will change or that he cares about the concerns, then the most logical thing left to do is block the editor. Fram (talk) 15:17, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps someone over on Commons can also note that Krsno and Leee84 have both been blocked there for uploading copyright violations, and Amss125 has received a warning for doing the same, with images of very similar topics, as well. Just a few too many coincidences for my taste. I'll file an SPI here, but checkuser will probably be impossible as the data are stale (hmm, User:Krsno was blocked 12 October 2013, User:Leee84 was created 4 January 2014, or nearly three months later: Leee84 was blocked 27 January 2014, and Amss125 created 25 April 2014, or again nearly three months later: one starts to wonder if a deliberate attempt to avoid CU is part of the deal here). Fram (talk) 14:08, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for posting this BranStark. Too often, people don't get the opportunity to see the good work people like Fram do. Thanks Fram. --Onorem (talk) 14:21, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Onorem. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Krsno now filed. Fram (talk) 14:29, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Well the underlying point is valid, the snarky sarcasm with which it was delivered provides no benefit. NE Ent 22:31, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Fram's behavior before the ANI thread was pretty much exemplary -- this is polite but clear [150], as is the block statement [151]. We grant some editors the tools to act on our behave specifically for situations like this -- it's a false, saccharine sweetness to allow an uncommunicative editor to waste their time on stuff that's going to be deleted, and pointless work for the editors who have to flag the content for deletion. NE Ent 22:31, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Blocks are supposed to be done to prevent disruption, which was clearly the case here. Notwithstanding the now-known evidence of sockpuppetry, a disruptive editor who is unresponsive (even if because English is not their first language) is still a disruptive editor, and competence is required. Good call, Fram. Ivanvector (talk) 22:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

John811jd disruption

John811jd (talk · contribs) is posting POV-ridden screeds such as this, despite attempts to explain that Facebook etc are not reliable sources. They have also been inserting large amounts of copyvio, principally at Rajput and its talk page. I've just lost my temper trying to deal with the TLDR stuff that is going on and which is completely screwing up that article's talk. They've had some warnings, including with regard to the sanctions in place for the topic area.

I don't care what is done but please can I have some help resolving the present behaviour. - Sitush (talk) 14:37, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Examples of copyvio include this from this and this from this. There are other examples that I've come across along the way.

Other stuff, such as this, seems to have been copied from other articles without attribution, which I guess is a slightly more technical issue for a newbie. - Sitush (talk) 16:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm on my way out of the door, and I am unfamiliar with the whole administrative side of things with regard to discretionary sanctions, but this should be an indef block IMO. I'm not placing it myself because I currently don't have the time to find out how to file, and wrap up the paperwork, but if anyone else could, that would be great. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 16:47, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• I'm looking at some of these diffs. Sitush, I don't see the copyvio in your second set of "this from this", and I can't access the book in the first set. This diff, which you singled out, has text found all over the web, including in our article Akbar where it is sourced to a book. So there may be an attribution problem for the copied paraphrase, yes. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, dear Sitush--this edit of theirs borrows your edit to Jaipur State, without proper attribution. Newbie problem, maybe, but, John811jd, you can't edit like this: see Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. If you cannot follow that guideline we may have a competence problem.

  It's clear that edits like this are highly disruptive--POV, FORUM, non-recognition of RS, etc (oh, that's the one you linked). Now, I see that they've already been warned about the discretionary sanctions (Wikipedia:General sanctions/South Asian social groups), so a block is in order and I will place it; I will let further discussion decide on whether this should be an indefinite block or not. Drmies (talk) 17:17, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• Drmies, in the second set of diffs, check for "Accepting Mughal overlordship, the princes were admitted to the court and the emperor’s privy council and were given governorships and commands of armies." - straight out of Britannica and not in the article at the previous diff.

  I think that the fundamental issue here is going to be one that has quite a long history: members of the Gurjar community do not like members of the Rajput community, and vice versa. Periodically, we get combinations of puffery of their own article and attack of the other. Gurjeshwar has recently been temporarily blocked for warring and socking, and John811jd was active in attempting to slur on Rajput at the same time as Gurjeshwari was attempting to promote on Gurjar. It could be just coincidence but, in any event, inflammatory talk page stuff as in my original diff are very problematic. - Sitush (talk) 17:33, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• I placed a temporary block and have logged it. I have no qualms about making that an indefinite block if the disruption continues, nor do I have a problem with another admin extending it on the basis of the evidence here. I'm not going to be able to pursue this any further right now; I gotta pee and there's other work to do, so I'm going to press the BOSS button and *pff* Drmies (talk) 17:46, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Try and keep it professional. There is no benefit to Wikipedia in descriptions of your bodily functions in this or your edit summaries. AnonNep (talk) 19:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Eh, it's my daughter's variation on what happens to the fairy in Sleeping Beauty, but I understand if you didn't get that. Feel free to point these things out elsewhere. Drmies (talk) 20:00, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

If we're supposed to be professionals then I demand a raise. --Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:10, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I offer you twice what you're on now, Ponyo. I've left a note on the blocked user's talk page. I'm getting a bit wound up and so am taking a break - please can someone monitor that page in case they respond, copying any response to here. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 21:16, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

So I get another Wikipedia golf shirt? Score! --Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:19, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Nah, the shirt is a perk, a bonus. I was talking the basic rate (now backpedalling like mad!) - Sitush (talk) 21:21, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

We should give Ponyo his own farm with a sandbox, a village pump, ducks, and a spacious barn(star)! Weegeerunner (talk) 21:28, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Rangeblock needed

...for an edit-warring POV pusher on Hyksos, Egyptian mythology, and other articles--Sirius is the best example of their disruption. I'm following up on a note A. Parrot left at User talk:Dougweller; I do not know if Doug's advice to file on IRC has been followed and/or if anything came out of it; if this is redundant, my apologies. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 16:58, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

see the most recent thread on AN. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• I've blocked 166.170.14.0/24 for 72 hrs.--v/r - TP 17:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Kevin Gorman complains about Giano

Giano has both recently admitted that he only joined an arbcom discussion because I did so while throwing untrue accusations at me, and has managed to find a post I made in a different place within three minutes of me making it to throw some extra insults at me. Would someone uninvolved mind telling him to stop stalking my contribs and violating NPA? Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:04, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

If you don't want to look like a fool Kevin, don't behave like one. Giano (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

1) Why don't you ask Arbcom clerks. 2) Your comments on the GGTF talk page are pretty vague as to what earns someone removal from a mailing list. And while Giano isn't my favorite person, I think Giano's comments are spot on. You seem to want the mailing list to be a giant patting on the back for everyone on it without dissent. So, I'm not sure what to tell you, Kevin.--v/r - TP 22:12, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Because one of the pages involved isn't an arbcom page. Whether or not you agree with how I moderate GG-L doesn't really negate NPA or civility. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:19, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

If you don't want him talking to you, why are you replying [152]? NE Ent 22:22, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Most people reply to repeated violations of NPA by the same person. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Kevin (I had a hamster called Kevin when I was little) you really are becoming tres tedious. I have said all I need to here [153]. Now do put a sock in it. Giano (talk) 22:31, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

If someone comes here with an alleged stalking issue Victim blaming is far from the ideal way to respond (to say the least). AnonNep (talk) 22:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

That's assuming there's a victim of course. Eric Corbett 22:42, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Well that would be true if Kevin were a victim, but he's not. I'm very sorry that he doesn't like my opinions, but that won't stop me expressing them. What's the point of a debating chamber where everyone who doesn't agree with you is "kicked out"? I would have thought that was of very little use to anyone. Kevin's mailing list reminds of another censored and blinkered list I came across some time ago - that recommended banning anyone who was able to speak German - just imagine, if I hadn't put a stop to it, we could have lost Sandstein - that would have been unfortunate. Giano (talk) 22:47, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Last I checked, WP:HOUNDING is still policy. You've admitted that you only post because I do, and you do so in a way that violates NPA/civility. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:10, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Look, Giano has a long-standing reputation as a hothead. Unless he's literally preventing you from posting, you should just pretend he doesn't exist. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Giano, if you are innocent or guilty in this case is not important. What is important is this person feels stalked by you. I would be a nice thing to do if you gave this editor some space, doing so would not be an admission of wrongdoing. Chillum 23:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• I could say Chillum that you appear to stalk me, but I'm not that silly. If this editor wants space then perhaps he had better stop making the most ridiculous and ill thought posts and then being surprised when people respond to them. Giano (talk) 09:03, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• You can say all sorts of things but that does not make it true Giano. We have had very little contact since you have toned down your incivility to a more tolerable level. Thanks for that. Chillum 18:06, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

{{archive top}}Giano, please don't follow Kevin Gorman unless he mentions you or goes to a page you've previously been editing. You may comment freely on the arbitration pages, subject to the customary arbitration rules of decorum. Thank you. Jehochman ^Talk 23:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Certainly not, if you think I've been stalking him, then take me to Arbcom and prove it! If you can't prove it (and you can't) then please stop casting serious aspersions. I shall post exactly where I please, a right I enjoy along with all other editors. Giano (talk) 09:30, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

↑ Jehochman's close statement and Giano's reply to weren't appearing in my browser -- my guess is it was overloading the {{archive top}} template? -- so I've refactored thus [154]. NE Ent 14:06, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Single purpose account promoting a mthod

The user User:OrangeLeanVoice is heavily promoting a single method: OpenKanban on the Kanban (development) page. There are several revisions where the user has been adding the same content all the time ro the page, completely ignoring to try solve the issue: that it clearly looks like an advert. I suspect this is a single purpose account to try promote it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kanban_(development)&diff=634692008&oldid=633775865

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kanban_(development)&diff=627556168&oldid=627552623

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kanban_(development)&diff=627422758&oldid=627291071

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kanban_(development)&diff=626920643&oldid=626920543

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kanban_(development)&diff=609849797&oldid=609849712

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kanban_(development)&diff=609817308&oldid=609741321

There have been several undos by other editors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kanban_(development)&diff=627423765&oldid=627422758

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kanban_(development)&diff=622798661&oldid=622798194

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kanban_(development)&diff=614341636&oldid=614339834

In one of the diffs the user has claimed to try improve it ro be more neutral, but no results a has been shown at all. Thwre has been some talk with another editor before here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ronz#Open_Kanban_Mention

Sorry if this is messed up but I am on mobile

95.199.24.159 (talk) 00:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Looks like an promotional WP:SPA to me. No edits outside the topic, all edits are about how Open Kanban "innovates". Ian.thomson (talk) 00:53, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Here we go again...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kanban_%28development%29&diff=634981836&oldid=634901467

Undone with this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kanban_%28development%29&diff=635000000&oldid=634982645

95.199.24.159 (talk) 19:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Block review for User:Mondolkiri1 requested

I'm just going to request a review of my block to User:Mondolkiri1. Back in July, I blocked the editor here based on edits like this which were just argumentative and not appropriate. I unblocked him some time later but I just reblocked him again indefinitely based upon what looks like what invites to youtube videos this extraordinarily strange editing. Seeing that the flags at the ISIS page were screwed up here and based on his prior editing, I just think the editor needs to not jump into things like that. I don't know if this is too aggressive but if so, I'm more than willing to unblock and leave it be for now. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:50, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Reviewed, no complaints here. NE Ent 02:46, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Sadžid Husić

A User gave me the advice to talk about this decision here. I explained everything on a AfD page for this article. (Long story short: A sock creates articles about famous politicans, singers and soccer playes with the same name - all born in 1992 in Salzburg, Austria - he also creates "sources" for this articles) As long as you don't delete this article and block the obvious sock you make a joke out of English Wikipedia. --Yoda1893 (talk) 01:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Deleted contributions reviewed, and Demise21 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) blocked indefinitely as obvious sock of RealMadridCF2012 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). I would ask people much smarterer than me do the templating and categories, as SPI is not really my area of expertise. As they say in German, "Das ist nicht in meiner Job Description!" And also because I don't actually have any area of expertise. Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 08:39, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

A repost by a banned editor?

Is Misty Lown a repost of the frequently deleted previous versions of this article? This has been a subject of Wiki-PR in the past. I'd appreciate if an admin could look at it and delete if necessary. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 03:53, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Past deletions were for creation by a banned user, and then by WP:PROD. Neither of these makes it eligible for speedy deletion merely for being recreated. I suggest you try AfD instead. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:11, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Insulted by Lugnuts

Hi. User Lugnuts, to insult me trying to law violation there. I have with respect all rules try on creation, and efflorescence have, but this Lugnuts user The law violation leaves with There accusation racist to my nationality, Please hold front of this person. Thank you Mattewina (talk) 05:36, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

@Mattewina: Where are you suggesting this insult took place? —C.Fred (talk) 05:51, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

This is clearly related to the 'Copyright violations by a sockpuppet' section above. [155] AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:57, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

This User unadvised of i and my status, To me the addressed infringement. for works my It good, must insult it is lawful? What is my sin?. Am me abiding law, but only user Lugnuts have law violation.Mattewina (talk) 06:18, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

You're clearly the same person who was adding copyrighted material into film articles, per the link above. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 10:33, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Yesterday, I have undone a copypaste move by Mattewina and stopped short of blocking them (mainly because I had no time for investigation). Given that apparently they do not speak English, I am not sure their further participation in the English Wikipedia as an editor is beneficial.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:15, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

You're Dick Laurent is dead clearly doing insult. You try to rule of law you with force tell, all of me thanks to but you Insult.

Ymblanter Dear user, many of the articles rest Is wrong, but just me snag you!. You're know yourself, i much am helpful. Please refer to the rights of others respect.Mattewina (talk) 12:05, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

 Done On the second thought and after looking at the latest contributions of the user, I blocked them for an indefinite duration. It is clear that since they do not speak English, they do not really understand what they are adding to articles, and most of their edits just make no sense. This is on top of a record of copyright violations.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Disruption by Djcheburashka, proposed ban(s?)

(Restoring this from auto-archive. Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)) This user has been here since April 13, 2014 and has already racked up quite a few warnings (see User talk:Djcheburashka (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)). As of recent, they've been generally disruptive. Actions include:

• Bad faith AfDs on Feminist school of criminology and Dark figure of crime. (See this, and this)
• Removal of comments from AfDs ([156], [157])
• Template regulars or sending them nasty messages when they revert their edits (e.g., [158], [159], [160])
• Assuming bad faith and accusing editors ([161], [162])
• Edit war on Dasha Zhukova (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and Roscelese's own talk page User talk:Roscelese (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
• Hounding/following Roscelese ([163], [164], [165], started section on Talk:War on Women soon after Roscelese edited) User appears to have a bone to pick related to sexual assault (see this edit, edit, this edit, this edit, this whole NPOVN mess, edits on False accusation of rape, edits on David Lisak) as well as financial crimes (e.g., this BLP proposal, edits on Stratton Oakmont, Enron scandal, Donald Trump, Jordan Belfort, Joseph Borg (regulator), Ray Nagin). I won't say they haven't made constructive edits, but their recent actions have garnered the attention of a number of editors. But the editor history on their talk page speaks volumes. I would at the very least suggest an IBAN with Roscelese and a TBAN on all things sexual crime related (as that's where the most disruptive behavior has occurred). But honestly I get a big WP:NOTHERE feeling and think a site ban might be in order. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 09:21, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

They seem to have a desire to drag uninvolved parties into this dispute that specifically don't like Roscelese[166]-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 14:05, 11 November 2014 (UTC).

Some more reading, User talk:CambridgeBayWeather#User:Djcheburashka, User talk:CambridgeBayWeather#Page protection... and User talk:CambridgeBayWeather#Harassment. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 14:20, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support siteban. The disruption in areas related to women is self-evident, but the user's behavior at Dark figure of crime is also illustrative, and additionally, his harassment of various users (including stalking and canvassing) is something that there's no reason to think will not happen again in other topic areas. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:25, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support siteban. I too thought an iBan would be enough, but I no longer think so. Only a community imposed siteban will do. They lack the ability to see that their behavior is the problem. They lack "behavioral competence". Their behavior is very much like the blocked User:Worldedixor. They could be twins. A huge timesink, with denial and lots of blaming of others. This comment of mine, while written to Worldedixor, applies here too. I'm really tired of newbies coming here and thinking they know better than every experienced editor. The inability to process and accept advice creates huge problems. Both of them need to be sitebanned. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:51, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• Response This is a bad-faith request by a pair of editors who engage in improper tag-team editing with a third, User:Roscelese. After I found serious sourcing problems with a page and tried to discuss them on the talk page, and R refused to do so or allow editing, I started a POV discussion (properly). R then reverted the POV page repeatedly, causing me to ask for protection and administrator intervention. In fact, it was me who requested the protection on those pages so the "edit war" would stop and the dispute resolution process could proceed. The retaliation for that is what brought us here.

There are a lot of accusations here, which should be addressed, and I apologize in advance that because of the shotgun approach above I need a bit of length to respond:

I do not have a "bone to pick" regarding sexual assault. It is true that after a decade practicing law, when I see someone say that the false-reporting rate for 'any' crime is 6%, it makes me laugh my coffee out my nose. We're discussing this about sexual assault only because that crime has political implications, and wherever there's politics there are extremist academic claims alongside the mainstream discussion. (To preempt the inevitable misogyny allegations: My view is that rape is probably underreported more than most other crimes, but also probably falsely reported more than most other crimes. One reason is that rape laws are very complex, and people often believe they've been raped when, under the law of the jurisdiction, they have not.) Anyway, when I saw stuff on the page that didn't make sense to me, my response was to go into detail, read the sources, and try to improve the page. I thought my edits and proposals should have been relatively uncontroversial since they were quite moderate -- expanding the discussion of sources, putting things in chronological order. The vehemence and nastiness that followed is part of why I suspect bad faith -- something I did not raise until the nastiness had gone on for an extended period of time and involved multiple personal attacks.

EvergreenFir became involved then. She and R use tag-team editing that page and a number of other pages.

There was no edit war on Dasha Zhukova. I and others revised the page over a period of time after opening discussion on the talk page and soliciting comment. The page has had a not-very-often vandalism issue where periodically someone will drive-by and without comment try to revert the page to the preceding form. A few nights ago an editor (one not otherwise involved here), claiming to be fixing honorifics, brought the page to the preceding form. (I find behavior like that to be curious, but that's a topic for another day.) I reverted the changes and asked the user to open discussion on the talk page and seek consensus if he wanted to change the article. That's when Calton, who had no prior involvement with the page but had made a series of nasty comments on the discussions about the Rosceles issue, showed up to unrevert my revert. That's straightforward disruptive editing, and I left the template along with an explanation of the page's history. I invited Calton, if he cares about the page, to raise the issue on the article talk page. He declined. I also invited him to explain to me why he felt my disruption template was improper, and offered to self-revert if he had a good explanation. He declined again.

Regarding whether I have a "bone to pick" with financial crimes - well, I suppose that is true in a sense, I consider myself something of an expert on the subject of financial frauds. My edits to these pages Stratton Oakmont, Enron scandal, Donald Trump, Jordan Belfort, Joseph Borg (regulator), Ray Nagin, were generally adopted, usually after raising the issues for consensus and discussion on the talk pages. Early on I wasn't as good about that, but I've gotten better. I've also made a proposal regarding WP:BLP and convicted felony fraudsters, because I think there are special issues that arise in fact-checking fraudster biography claims. Many of my other edits on these pages involved removing pointless cutesy biographical detail sourced only to the subjects' memoirs.

The actual edits that this is about concern pages where sources have been misrepresented in favor of a study by David Lisak. Lisak, during his now-over career as an academic researcher, published studies claiming, among other things, that 16% of men are confessed rapists, 9% of the men on college campuses are "serial rapists," and 8% are child molesters. The edit to David Lisak that they object to, is that for the lede I want to use Lisak's own description of his occupation from his website of his occupation. Described on this site as a "leading researcher" in his field and expert who helps prosecutors, in fact Liskan has no affiliation with any research institution -- he was rejected by the academy and the courts a decade or so ago. He is now a consultant who gives speeches on sexual assault. A political sector continues to promote his work, and they're large enough for it to not be WP:FRINGE (barely), and that's fine. I don't think it should be marginalized. But neither should Lisak be lionized, nor should the wiki declare that any disagreement with him has been "discredited," as though opposing work, which is the majority of the field, were the intellectual equivalent of holocaust deniers. I think the pages should simply relate the facts, saying what the studies say, what Lisak actually did, and what he actually does. They don't need to take a side.

I understand that B, E and R disagree with me about Lisak's views. This does not make my participation "disruptive" -- it means issues should be resolved through the talk pages, and if necessary the POV dispute and other dispute resolution mechanisms. I have tried to do that. This is the retaliation.

Regarding Brangifer: He claims to be a neutral, said any pages where he and R both edited must be incidental and he doesn't know about it, etc. But, see here: Talk:War_on_Women. The substantive issue with that page concerns one half of a single sentence. Another editor tried to take it out as unsourced and wrong. R objected, and bullied him off. I took a look at the sources and realized he was right. I therefore opened a talk page discussion on the subject. (To preempt the bias accusation, my view is that what Republicans were doing on womens' rights issues, which they never really stopped, are bad enough to speak for themselves, but are exaggerated and distorted in the page.) There is a pattern here: editor find a problem with a page and attempt to help. The response (most vehemently from R, usually with support from B or E or both, sometimes others) is a refusal to discuss substantive issues and torrent of accusations of bias and incompetence, threats, disruption templates, etc. Going through some of these, I realized that in some cases, I agreed with the editors who had been bullied-off (in most cases I did not). I therefore have started to re-raise those issues. An interaction or site ban would, of course, allow them to (falsely) maintain that there's a consensus in favor of their version of the pages, again without having to address the issues that led multiple editors to object. Similarly, an interaction ban, where the other editor has touched a slew of pages on topics in connection with their own agenda, would simply prevent someone they disagree with from joining the discussion, allowing the continued claim of a consensus that doesn't really exist.

If you think I may have been harassive or abusive, I refer you to the comments that Brangifer and Calton have been leaving on my talk page. Nasty, personal, aggressive, pointless --- and neither of them has said a thing about the underlying issues that led to this, which have to do with improper sourcing, POV issues, and a refusal to participate in either the consensus-building or POV dispute resolution process.

Regarding templates, I stand by every template I applied. Regarding templates for "regulars" -- is that a joke? Even if it mattered whether the person was a "regular," the templates were proper. R has received similar warnings and block threats from numerous editors and several admins for what has been a multi-year career of abusive behavior, bullying, improperly using templates herself to bully and harass other users, violating blocks, and so forth. Mine were comparatively mild. Calton, I haven't checked whether he has, but I'd be shocked if he hasn't considering his self-proclaimed role as Batman-of-the-wiki.

Regarding the afd for two pages: I realize now that I made technical errors when I nominated those pages and in response to a vote from R that I'd misinterpreted as another improper reversion attempt. Those were my mistakes, and I take responsibility for them, but they were technical in nature, not bad faith. There was a substantive error in one of the requests, though. Because of that and all of the static, I have not re-nominated either page. I do intend to return to them once the rest of this has calmed down and they can be discussed (unless they are improved in the meantime) without all the strum und drang. Both pages have serious writing and lack-of-source problems for years that no-one's bothered to fix. Why did R get involved in this so quickly? Either because she was tracking what I was doing, or because of tag-teaming with evergreenfir; the pages seem to be linked to her forthcoming PhD dissertation.

Regarding this 'I'm really tired of newbies coming here and thinking they know better than every experienced editor.' from B, I thought we didn't have a hierarchy on wikipedia? We have editors, we have administrators, and we have ArbCom, but that's really it. Editors' work is supposed to be evaluated based on the quality of the work, not the tenure of the editor. Doesn't B's comment really say it all?

Regarding "hounding" and bringing in others, I have gone through many of R's edits after seeing how she dealt with mine and problems on a few other pages. Most of the edits I looked at seem to be perfectly good. Some of them, on women's rights issues in particular, seem to have real issues. R has had run-ins with a number of people on those issues over the years. Each time, there's a core group (e.g., E, R, sometimes B) who seem to track each other and show up quickly so they can declare consensus. WP:CIRCUS. Editors are not just disagreed with, they're driven off with threats, disruption templates, and accusations. If those editors' views were cumulated, 'they' would be the consensus. It's also true that, where R received certain block warnings from administrators, where those warnings involved conduct similar to what I saw here, I reached out to the admins to ask them to get involved.

I think that covers it. If there are additional accusations I may pop back in to respond, and if anyone reading this wants sources or links to examples, please let me know.

Best, Djcheburashka (talk) 18:26, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Too long, didn't read - When you reply to a post with an absurdly long reply containing personal attacks, remember that you might be throwing a returning boomerang. What the subject has proved with this reply is that he is a combative editor. I don't have an opinion on the original merits yet. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:23, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Mmm. Your comment says a lot about you, too, actually. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:49, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support indefinite block. I have been watching this editor since they first started editing. I have also been watching subsequent events with some dismay. The only reason I haven't taken administrative action is because I am WP:INVOLVED, having gotten into a content dispute with the editor on two articles from the get-go. I noted early, though, the obvious aggression and distortion of facts. I also believed the editor was on a crusade, although, frankly, I wasn' sure what it was. Others may have a better handle on that based on his more recent substantive edits. In the beginning, he had a problem with an Alabama regulator, Joseph Borg (regulator). Because Borg was mentioned in the Jordan Belfort article, he attacked both articles because he believed too much credit was being given to Borg. As a consequence we had a lovely exchange on the Belfort Talk page here. One of Dj's more choice comments was "I'm taking this out. If I see it inserted here again, I'll give the journalists who cover him a nice complete dossier on the Alabama politician's apparently 5-year-long history of making false claims about the case. Try me." His subsequent behavior has been just if not more intemperate. That said, I wouldn't move directly to a site ban.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support indefinite block. The diffs above paint a picture of someone who has the rather impressive ability to repeatedly deny the obvious and extensively argue indefensible positions. If this isn't trolling, then it's essentially indistinguishable. Editors should not have to waste time arguing with someone who insists that a sourced article has no citations. The characterization of removing multiple valid votes at AfD as a "technical error" is equally perplexing. I wanted to wait until Djcheburashka had a chance to reply, but apparently, the editor in question still sees nothing wrong with these actions. A topic ban or interaction ban could work, I suppose, but the problematic behavior would probably just continue in other areas. An indef siteban seems a bit over-the-top with no evidence of blatant trolling or sock puppetry. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:40, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• I don't know who all was responsible for Dasha Zhukova, but I removed three four completely unacceptable sections from that article. BLPlease, people. Drmies (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• It looks to me like one of the sections you removed was also removed by Dj.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:02, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually all of them -- I hadn't noticed, but Calton had re-re-reverted it again. The edits by DRmies put it in approximately a similar position to what I and others had done -- actually he took out a bunch of stuff that I had wanted to take out, but I didn't want to go further than we had without more involvement from others. So I'm happy to see the edits. Djcheburashka (talk) 21:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

That's not accurate. You removed one piece recently and did some other editing much earlier. Drmies removed considerably more. Regardless, this does not change my recommendation that you be indefinitely blocked. As someone said somewhere above, not all your edits have been destructive. However, many have, and equally important, your attitude is not suitable for collaborating on this project.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:49, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I saw that Djetc. removed one of the things which were later restored and then removed by me. I went to that article to see what was up with this editor and saw that the blind were leading the blind, at least there. Drmies (talk) 00:08, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• Comment "User appears to have a bone to pick related to sexual assault", EvergreenFir, you identify with the feminist school of criminology on your user page and that school has very distinct views about false rape accusations in comparision with some other criminologists (Djcheburashka apparently was pushing for another POV). Are you honestly concerned about the user conduct, not ideological differences? It would be bad if it seemed like ideological sniping. To be honest, all the "violations" here are mild except for the two AfDs. Templating regulars or hounding Roscelese to vote keep just like she did on Palestinian stone-throwing are not a reason for indef block. --Pudeo' 20:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

@Pudeo: he edits on those pages are what brought this user to my attention a few days ago. After the bad faith AfDs, they've moved on to other areas... kinda. I don't mind people with other POVs discussing a page's content. But I think I've shown in the edit diffs that this was much more than that (edit warring, hounding someone related to that page and feminist topics in general, bad faith AfDs, etc.) While I understand your concern, I am perfectly capable of getting along with people that don't share my views (just ask Two kinds of pork). This user is not just someone who disagrees with me. They are disruptive to the point of being WP:NOTHERE. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I accept your clarification and believe it. Although I still think those offences are rather mild given the editor apparently does not have any previous sanction log. If the editor does not engage anymore in what can be seen as hounding or POINTy behaviour, I think indef block is too harsh. --Pudeo' 21:44, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose siteban - the evidence provided is weak. A lot of it is legitimate consensus-seeking discussion in a contentious topic area, which is very difficult, but in which the user has mostly kept civil even when other editors haven't. Indeed, Calton and BullRangifer made inappropriately angry, aggressive posts on Djcheburashka's talk (e.g. [167], [168], [169]) and the user did not respond in kind. Their comments, while much too long, show an understanding of neutrality and verifiability policies we don't normally see from newbies. I share some concern that the user is here to right great wrongs - I accept that the user did not understand how to complete the AfD process but a more serious issue is that they felt those articles should be deleted in the first place. I am similarly concerned that they may be wikilawyering our policies to push an agenda, but they have edited in several disparate topic areas and it's not clear what that agenda would be, and we are required to assume good faith unless there is strong evidence otherwise. For the procedural issues they have apologized, repeatedly. They and the other editors involved should be warned to actually discuss their issues politely rather than disruptively and repeatedly templating each other and calling each other names, and Brangifer should be cluebatted for claiming a privilege of authority based on their edit count. Ivanvector (talk) 22:04, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose siteban based on the fact that this user only has an edit count within the hundreds, and Wikipedia in itself is a rather convoluted and complicated mess of policies. The afd thing is unambiguous that he removed people's comments, but when you are a new person to the topic area of afd, you're probably unsure of how things worked. I believe that he used WP:IAR approach to justify deleting the comments--as he mentioned, he was trying to evade the keeping of a problem page with overt problems. I can absolutely see why he would have that POV. I also believe that in spite of the OP removing comments, the afds were closed out of practice as 'speedy keep' and assumed bad faith on the OP, when that wasn't warranted. The other 'templating the regulars' and supposedly combative edit summaries; I've seen more established editors talk to me in a much more combative way in open view, with no repercussions at all. I see no swearing, I see no outright anger, I see maybe a misunderstanding of what a 'disruptive' editor is and what a 'SPA' is. But I don't believe the evidence waivered deserves anything but maybe a mandated tutor on exactly which policies and guidelines to follow and whether he has a skewed outlook of them. Blocking somebody indefinitely because they didn't know all the wiki syntax and etiquette is kind of harsh, however maybe a 1 month topic ban (and then a block if it continues into other areas during that time) would be warranted. At this time, however, it doesn't seem so much to warrant an indefinite block--which is the last resort in any sort of conduct issues. This is attempting to shotgun a fly instead of using a fly swatter instead. Tutelary (talk) 22:52, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support IBAN with Roscelese I think there is a call for this but it would be in excess to indef them. They are a new user. Perhaps a warning could suffice and we could point out to them where they can recieve help such as the Wikipedia:Teahouse and Wikipedia:Adopt a user.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:53, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• The evidence of hounding provided here is extremely weak. However if Roscelese believes that an interaction ban will improve the situation, I will support it. Ivanvector (talk) 00:16, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I weigh the weak evidence against DJ with them trying to draw a user that doesn't like roscelese into this dispute. If this isn't canvassing itself it certainly seems to me to violate the spirit of the Canvassing rules. But yes I agree that would be a good idea to see what Roscelese views on this are.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:37, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I mean, I wouldn't object to an IBAN if that's all we can get out of this discussion. But my first interaction with this user was a week ago and since then he's stalked me to various places in the encyclopedia, harassed me on my talk page, blanked my discussion comments, and canvassed other users against me. That's not evidence of a problem he has with me, that's a behavioral problem. Do you really think that that won't just happen to the next user who disagrees with him, and the next? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:41, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I do object to an iban if the effect of it would be to confer ownership over the pages at issue, which I think is what is being sought. I have not "stalked" or "harassed" Roscelese; in fact, I think the record of our talk page diffs shows the opposite. All of this arose when R refused to abide by the consensus or POV dispute process, then (with evergreenfir) commenced an edit war over it, and so on, which are issues R has had in the past. A lot. EvergreenFir participated with her in that initial edit war. WP:INVOLVED I followed dispute resolution and consensus procedures and sought community and admin assistance when I saw the edit war brewing, and tried to freeze things so that the process could proceed. The POV dispute resolution process should have been, and still should be, allowed to play-out without interference, harassment, retaliation, canvassing, tag-teaming, abusive template-adding, bullying, threatening, retaliation, or disruption. That's it! Djcheburashka (talk) 02:31, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

The power not to interfere, harass, retaliate, canvass, tag-team, abusively template, bully, threaten, retaliate (more), or disrupt, was always inside you. We all would have loved if discussions could have proceeded and consensus could have been built without any of this, but it was your own choice to behave poorly that prevented that. I recommend that you recognize what you've done, decide not to do it again, and possibly even apologize. (Although I'll note for the benefit of other readers that Dj evidently considers his own opinion, opposed by 4+ other users, a "consensus.") –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Roscelese, I tried to discuss these matters with you reasonably on your talk page, on mine, and on the POV dispute page. You reverted, deleted or ignored at least 5 of my attempts before this became an "edit war." Can you point to any diff, anywhere, where you attempted to engage me in any conversation or discussion about this, or responded to anything I said other than to declare whatever matter closed and threaten me?  :: By the way -- if you now agree that there is no consensus regarding the original pages (even if you're miscounting), then we're done here. Because you're then admitting that the POV template should be on the pages in question; that your conduct regarding the "edit war," the POV dispute, the "warning templates" left on my page, and so on, on your part and EvergreenFir's, were all violations; and that the conduct you claim was harassive on my part (i.e., complaining that the repeated reverts and threats were disruptive) was actually proper.

This ban proposal will be over soon, and we will then move forward. Djcheburashka (talk) 04:01, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I think the extreme projection in this comment is useful to note. If any constructive users are interested in talking to me about this issue, I'm reachable, but I don't see a point in continuing to coddle this person when he continues to deny and defend his misbehavior and show every intent to continue it. Hit me up if you need me. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 07:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:INVOLVED does not apply. Evergreenfir is not acting as an admin here but as an editor, further is evergreenfir an admin? If the record shows the opposite surely you can show how the record shows the opposite. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC) ::@Serialjoepsycho: Not admin, just reviewer. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:11, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

You are reviewer of course of wikipedia per WP:RVW, but right now and during this dispute where you have taken part have you acted in your capacity as a reviewer or have you acted in your capacity as an editor?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:01, 12 November 2014 (UTC)  ::: I did not mean "involved" in a technical sense -- I just meant, she's involved in the underlying dispute. This did not, as she claims, "come to her attention" looking at pages. In fact, as I recall she fired several of the first edit-war salvos. Sorry if my use of the link was confusing as to my intent. Djcheburashka (talk) 04:01, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

So you didn't mean involved by the in the wikipedia definition of the word involved that you linked to but you mean the general definition. Well that's great. The fact the they made edits or fired salvos or what ever doesn't disprove that they were looking at pages that they were looking at pages before they stumbled across your disruption.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 08:24, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

She didn't "stumble across it" -- she was one of the people who started the edit war. She went into the background after Roscelese got very aggressive about it. Djcheburashka (talk) 03:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• OPPOSE for many of the same reasons stated by Tutelary. Experienced editors are supposed to be patient with new editors, but that certainly isn't evident in some of the comments I've been reading. I recommend mentoring. Atsme☯^Consult 18:55, 12 November 2014 (UTC) ::Just point this out, Atsme is the user that Djcheburashka attempted to bring into this conflict[170].-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I apologize to the editors participating in this discussion for the pointless comment made by Serialjoepsycho who has relentlessly been WP:Hounding me for nearly 8 months now. Following are the diffs showing the question asked by Djcheburashka on my Talk page regarding Roscelese's abuse of warning templates. [171] And my response to her question. [172] I suppose it's just coincidence that Serialjoepsycho supports the same POV as Roscelese, who - purely by coincidence, I'm sure - happens to be one of the certifiers in the RFC/U Serialjoepsycho initiated against me after a recent BLPN consensus determined the Islamophobia template on IPT was a BLP violation. It doesn't surprise me that he attempted to distract the focus of this discussion away from his own actions, but then, that's how he operates. At least he's consistent, right? I'm not here to pass judgement on who is right or wrong - I'm just recommending leniency toward the new editor, Djcheburashka, and suggested mentoring. Atsme☯^Consult 20:19, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this is very logical. Djcheburashka canvasses Atsme and my responding to this fact for a second time here is me hounding atsme. I supposedly support Roscelese 'POV' here and yet Atsme is not actually going to be able to point out which POV of Roscelese I support. Now if you review the above you will see that I support one of multiple POV's that Evergreenfir has brought forth. The IBAN. Atsme is not here to pass judgement, She is here to help a user that has canvassed her to go against a user that she does not like because of among other things this user had opened an RFC/U against her.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:55, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Your hounding and false accusations have been duly noted, Serialjoepyscho. Atsme☯^Consult 07:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Atsme had left a warning on User:Roscelese's talk page. It seemed to involve some of the same stuff as I'd been concerned about, and it seemed more authoritative than most of the warnings -- I'm really still getting the hang of the way all this hierarchy and dispute resolution stuff works. Apart from the warning I saw, I had no knowledge at all of who Atsme is or any prior relationship or interaction with Roscelese, RFC/U (whatever that is) or anything else. Honestly, I really still don't.

That night, I made a series of requests to Roscelese to discuss and resolve things. I then tried to seek dispute resolution help when it became clear that she would not discuss the matter --- using the POV disputes page, and the page protection request page, etc. My post to Atsme -- which asked him/her if s/he would take a look at things, was part of my attempts to seek dispute resolution through the community process. Is that canvassing? I thought I was seeking community dispute resolution assistance. Pls compare my comment to Atsme with this: [[173]] Djcheburashka (talk) 03:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

No, Djcheburashka, asking questions is not WP:Canvassing, however, the behavior exhibited by your accuser is typical of troll behavior, but more specifically of his very skewed interpretation of policy. Ignore his rhetoric, or he will continue until it consumes you. The post by Robert McClenon at (20:23, 11 November 2014) is excellent advice. Atsme☯^Consult 07:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes you are absolutely right. Asking a question is not canvassing. For example if they asked you what color is the sky that wouldn't be canvassing. Asking a question to someone solicit their involvement in a dispute because that individual may specifically not like the editor in question is canvassing. Robert McClenon offers great advice, If you can notice it you should keep it in mind.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 09:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Excellent examples of classic canvassing can be seen in your talk page discussion with Roscelese regarding this dispute, [174], and again in the recent past when you drug her into your obsessive attempts to get me topic banned because I corrected a BLP violation you ignored, [175], [176], and in the not so distant past when you contacted a banned user who supported your POV during a BLPN and a merge-delete discussion for IPT: [177], and again here regarding a pending edit war on another article: [178]. I consult you to stop making false accusations in what appears to be a deliberate attempt to get a new user blocked or banned for making inconsequential newbie mistakes. Your pattern of behavior is one I am quite familiar with as the target of your relentless hounding and recent attempts to get me blocked or topic banned because of your skewed interpretation of policy as you have demonstrated here. Atsme☯^Consult 15:46, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

This whole unrelated argument is, I believe, showing exactly why it was wildly inappropriate for Dj to contact Atsme for support. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

What that is a classic example of is you simply not knowing what the hell you talking about Atsme. But there are plenty examples of that. Contacting Roscelese to tell her that I wasn't going to ask any more questions to an evasive editor in the RFCU that she was involved in is not canvassing. Contacting Sepsis II to about the discussion on the BLPN that you mentioned them multiple times in is not canvassing. Contacting Sepsis II about an editwar they were involved in at to try to get them to discuss it on the talk page is not canvassing. Contacting Roscelese that a user is is trying to canvass you into their dispute is not canvassing.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 17:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Roscelese, "wildly inappropriate" is the fact that Serialjoepsycho drug me into this ANI because he has been trolling my edits and talk page for the past 8 months, and has relentlessly posted disparaging comments about me almost everywhere I go, which equates into WP:Hounding. In the interim, I believe it is wrong to hang a canvasing tag on Djcheburashka because she is innocent, not to mention a new editor. Serialjoe clearly doesn't understand WP:Canvas or WP:Tag team if he doesn't think his call-to-arms-communication to you is acceptable behavior, as are his past canvassing activities which demonstrate WP:DONTGETIT. I suppose he doesn't see his current activities as WP:Hounding, either. Sad. I hope that, at the very least, you understand why the comment he made in his initial post is ludicrous by alleging that Dj was dragging uninvolved parties into this dispute that specifically don't like Roscelese. It is a lie to suggest that I "specifically don't like Roscelese", when in fact (and evidence will prove) that it is the other way around. It is long past due the time to make peace, and stop edit warring. Atsme☯^Consult 18:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Roscelese I think your last comment demonstrates pretty clearly that you either haven't been reading what other people say, are assuming that we're lying, or just don't care. I think this entire ban request was bad faith from the start, and at this point the question is how to move forward.

Right now, if there was a vote on the POV discussion, it would be 4:2, which is no consensus anyway; 3 on the "4 side" are strongly affiliated with what some have called "radical feminism," and I will decline to try to name because any name will be deemed offensive by someone; and none of the four have identified any WP:RS in support of their position, or offered anything but a conclusory statement that "the literature" says something (which it plainly does not). Meanwhile, no-one has offered a defense of the current form of the David Lisak page in any respect.

User:CambridgeBayWeather suggested we take this back to the article talk pages. Are you willing to do that and to work with me in a constructive, non-warfare way to try and get the articles to simply note what is noteable, express the key points from the key sources, and not take a view on controversial matters or marginalize legitimate and widely-held views? If so, I am willing to put all the noise behind us and let's get back to work. Djcheburashka (talk) 02:00, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose The question he had asked me,[179] it speaks for itself. I would consider Djcheburashka to be fairly new as he don't know how en.wiki works. It is better to give him a chance to be good. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 04:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support indefinite block While I was initially swayed by the arguments that this is a relatively new user, the continued disruption since this ANI was filed suggests this problem seems unlikely to resolve with time. Dj’s BLP activities are particularly alarming and are basically what convinced me a block seems reasonable here. To illustrate the BLP editing concerns regarding Dj, today Dj has been edit warring to remove the “Career” subheading from the Dasha Zhukova article [180] [181] with talk page explanation: “I removed the career subheading, since she doesn't have a "career." She's a socialite.” Earlier Dj deleted the New York Times reference which described Zhukava‘s career, while doing so he also changed the lead from: :Darya "Dasha" Alexandrovna Zhukova (Russian: Дарья Александровна Жукова; born 8 June 1981) is a Russian philanthropist, businesswoman, fashion designer and magazine editor. She is the editor-in-chief of bi-annual art and fashion magazine GARAGE.[1]

To: :Darya "Dasha" Alexandrovna Zhukova (Russian: Дарья Александровна Жукова; born 8 June 1981) is the girlfriend of billionaire Roman Abramovich.

Ms. Zhukova is affiliated with a number of organizations based on which she has been described as a "philanthropist, entrepreneur, fashion designer" and magazine editor. However, with the exception of a three-month period with one magazine, none of Ms. Zhukova's organizations appear to have any existence independent of her or Mr. Abramovich. :Dj added no reference for his edits criticizing the legitimacy of Zhukova’s career. [182]

--BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:33, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm almost amused... I've been trying to edit that page for some time, including with participation from other people on this thread. One of those people proposed to delete a bunch of stuff from the page that I have wanted to remove for a while, and I did so. BoboMeowCat then reverted the page without looking at or joining the talk page discussion. I reverted his edit and asked him to join the talk page discussion before editing the article.

One of the changes I had made was to remove the subheading for "Career," collapsing that content into the rest of the article, since after a series of edits there was very little left in the section and "Career" seems to have been a misnomer anyway. Neither the page nor any secondary source says that Zhukova has ever been employed in any profession or job at any time. Well, perhaps her brief three-issue stint as an editor of an arts magazine from which she was removed counts, but if so its a very short section.

BoboMeowCat's principal concern is that he does not want any mention of the incident in which a photograph of Zhukova sitting on a chair made to look like a mostly-naked, highly sexualized black woman, was published on MKL Jr's birthday. This led to something of a controversy, and twitter campaign, and articles in the Guardian and Independent UK, and Time, etc. With more than 8000 google hits it would be notable on its own. See http://newsfeed.time.com/2014/01/23/apology-for-black-woman-chair-photo/ BoboMeowCat, however, feels that its derogatory. My view is that whether it creates a negative impression of her or not, it happened, and it was notable -- in fact, I believe its the central thing for which Zhukova is known.

I added the "none of the organizations..." sentence after researching them and finding no indication of them anywhere except for on each others' bare websites and the wiki page. I wanted to just delete the references, but did not think deleting the organizations entirely would fly. But, that is what came out of the talk page, and so the sentence Bobo doesn't like has been taken out along with the material that it addressed.

Why is this here? Why is BoboMeowCat suddenly drive-by editing an article that doesn't intersect any subject matter in which s/he expressed any interest whatsoever in the past? Notably, shortly before s/he began to look at the Zhukova page, I took a position opposite BoboMeowCat in a POV dispute he raised, about which he apparently feels very, very, very strongly. Djcheburashka (talk) 01:35, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Dj, this response in many ways actually illustrates the disruption that I've noticed to be part of your talk page style (here and elsewhere including the NPOV noticeboard discussion you referenced [183]). I notice you seem to repeatedly misrepresent occurrences. I'm not sure if by accident or what could be going on. Anyone interested in the occurrences of the Zhukova article should refer to [184] As is clear from talk:Dasha Zhukova, my principal concern has nothing to do with omitting info from the chair photo incident. I specifically said, "Huff Post is a RS, so this info might be able to be incorporated if we do so neutrally and cautiously". [185] I went on to actually add it. [186]. My principal concern involves your apparent attempts to turn this biography into an attack or smear piece. I was actually alerted to the Zhukova article via this ANI listing. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:35, 15 November 2014 (UTC)--BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:35, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

It is pretty obvious to me, and I think it will be pretty obvious to you if you look at the Zhukova talk page, that the subject of this BLP is known for more than those chairs. Whether you like her or not, whether you consider her a socialite or not, it cannot be denied that this person is notable, and for more than (and long before) sitting on a chair, and I am surprised that this was maintained for so long, and maybe still is. Saying that Bobo's only interest is keeping the chair out is simply not true: the chair is in. Drmies (talk) 21:23, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanctions whatever against Djcheburashka. Dj has behaved just fine, for a newbie. He/she is arguing, reasonably, and occasionally boldly editing. It's what we do. Please don't hesitate to ping me if you get any more harassment like this, Dj. Carry on. (If a good case is made to support Dj's description of bullying on Talk:War on Women and other pages, I would support strong sanctions against those involved.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:41, 15 November 2014 (UTC) *Oppose siteban. I would support a topic ban on Dasha Zhukova and an IBan with Roscelese. Seems like a fairly new editor who wasn't trying to cause harm. That said some of the comments as to why he was edit warring stuff on Dasha Zhukova's page and the responses to Roscelese are very inappropriate and should not continue. --Obsidi (talk) 00:50, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

At a minimum, a topic ban on Dasha Zhukova seems needed because Djcheburashka has made clear he has no intention to stop disruptively editing page. In fact, after myself and Drmies recently reverted his lack of consensus edits, Dj said on talk he'll just wait until we are no longer watching and "fix it" [187]--BoboMeowCat (talk) 15:16, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

That's the thing, though - a topic ban from Zhukova (or from rape, broadly construed) or an IBAN with me might help temporarily, but this is obviously a user behavior issue and we have no reason to suspect that things will be any different with regard to the next topic area or the next user that Dj takes a grudge against. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:59, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

If he jumps into another topic with similar behavior then we will know at that time that a topic ban would be ineffective, but I am not willing to skip that step to see if it is just a localized problem, and one hopefully he will realize it is inappropriate and not continue the behavior. If all the bad behavior is localized we have no reason to believe that it wouldn't end with a topic ban, and that should be our default unless we have reason to believe otherwise. --Obsidi (talk) 04:17, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

That's wrong. After drmies edited the page he and I began discussing changes. Bobo then jumped in, apparently in retaliation when I objected to his position in an NPOV dispute he'd raised concerning another page. Bobo then, interfered with the consensus, and repeatedly implemented the same against-consensus changes, while every time misrepresenting what he had done. After Bobo abandoned most of what he'd done (following several reverts for me as his changes were against consensus), DrMies shifted -- consensus having moved, I did not revert and have said I will hold-off and deal with the page at a later day.

That this is even here is an abuse of the process Djcheburashka (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban on Dasha Zhukova based on the diff cited by BoboMeowCat above. I won't support a full site ban or indefinite block at this point, but Djcheburashka, you really should stop edit warring and editing against consensus, no matter how strongly you believe your version is the right one. Nobody owns an article, so try to co-operate with fellow editors, even those who hold opposing points of view.
  I would suggest you step away from controversial articles for a while and help build an encyclopedia elsewhere, even if it means that the Wrong Version of some or other article will remain unchallenged for now. But if you find that unacceptable, keep making policy-based arguments on talk pages, keep attempting to build consensus, leave out the revert-warring and accept you won't get your way every time. Sideways713 (talk) 17:12, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Sideways713 -- I don't think I've seen your username before, so you may not be fully aware of what this is. Suffice it to say, I think Bobo is seriously misrepresenting what's taken place, what I've said, what I've done, and his own involvement. If you're genuinely interested in the issue, let me know on my talk page and I will provide you with diffs. Djcheburashka (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll be the first to admit I may not be fully aware of what this is, but both my advice to you and my not-vote above stand regardless of whether or not BoboMeowCat has misrepresented things. The diff cited - the one where you essentially say you will wait until BoboMeowCat and Drmies have turned their backs, and will then resume trying to push through your version - epitomizes the wrong way to resolve a content dispute. You're not supposed to exclude other editors from the editing process, but work together with them - and while consensus can change, BoboMeowCat and Drmies turning the other way and leaving you alone doesn't constitute a change of consensus. One gets the impression you want to push your version through, regardless of what other editors think; that's page ownership and against policy.
It doesn't help that your other recent contributions include page histories like this; unlike some here I feel you can be a constructive editor and contribute positively, but you'll really have to stop edit warring.
I'll be happy to strike my not-vote if you tell me I've misinterpreted the diff, that you understand what the problem would be if my reading were correct, and that "coming back in a few weeks to fix it" really means you will come back to the talk page a few weeks from now, start a new discussion from a fresh angle, invite BoboMeowCat and Drmies to take part in it, and don't intend to make any edits that were previously opposed until the new discussion's gained steam and it's clear that consensus has shifted to support your edits.
Remember that edit warring is always disruptive, even if you're right and the other editor(s) wrong. Avoid it. Sideways713 (talk) 20:26, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Sideways713 Actually, I think if you look at the timeline of the diffs and talk page, you'll see something of a different story -- it was me who opened the talk page discussion, and Bobo who ignored it, and repeatedly ignored consensus. Drmies changed his view about a small number of Bobo's proposals after most had been dropped and at that point I said "fine." I don't see any productive discussion on the talk page, and I don't think Bobo is there for any reason other than to retaliate because I didn't give him what he wanted on another page. I think the page right now has WP:RS, WP:V, and other issues. It's been a regular target of apparently WP:COI no-username vandals. Its misusing sources. And it leaves out several of the most important facets of the subject. Rather than continuing a battle which serves no purpose, with someone who seems interested in creating an edit war, I am taking a break from the page. I will return to it later, see what is there, and take appropriate action at that time. Whether that action is commencing a new discussion (which failed before, since Bobo chose to ignore it and impose his changes), or BRD, or what, will depend on the condition of the page at that time. Djcheburashka (talk) 01:52, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Another editor asked me to look deeper into this after #my comment above. Dj appears to have edited as an IP for a while, not signing their talk page posts, before creating this account, and continued not signing talk page posts for a bit. Some of this account's early edits were classic WP:OR [188] and other mistakes that no very experienced editor would have made but, then, their earliest edits were also peppered with very familiar language:
[189] Sixth edit (unsigned talk page comment) "Someone's PR campaign is not, of itself, notable..." Uses "notable" while failing to sign.
[190] Seventh edit: Uses "weasel words", "unsourced", "sourced to"
[191] Eighth edit. Uses "reverted" in the edit summary.
I've got house guests and can't really devote the necessary time to it, but I can understand others being leery of this behaviour. Still, the familiarity with our language and norms may have come from a prior dynamic IP career, and the arguing and boldness is fine with me. If we get into the realm of misrepresenting sources or problematical edit warring (I see a little edit warring on all sides - linked above) then I will change my mind, but for now I would just say, Dj, please generally allow yourself to be guided by WP:BRD, particularly regarding edits that throw a living person into a less favourable light. You're editing in very controversial areas and that requires (at least from newbies) an extra dose of politeness. Long term editors have had to deal with the most appalling POV-pushers and defamers over the years, and can sometimes be short on patience. Please try to be understanding and genuinely patient with them - they fill an extremely important and mostly thankless role here. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

It's arguable but reasonable that they are a new user. If they happened to continue appearing at pages that Roscelese has edited this would not be ideal. If they continue to edit war that would not be ideal. This ANI serves as a warning here if nothing else. The Wikipedia:Teahouse and Wikipedia:Adopt a user were both mentioned above. There maybe other places like on wikipedia. If so please do mention them. These were set up to assist new editors with acclimating to wikipedia. @Djcheburashka: I encourage you to use them to your benefit.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:01, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Teste.sys

Deleted the excessive text dumps per CSD U5. This user is WP:NOTHERE for building the encyclopedia. There was unexplained removal of past CSD taggings of unrelated users. Warned user. No further action needed. jni ^(delete)_{...just not interested} 14:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Something is going on with User:Teste.sys. The editor's only edits over the last three weeks are large text dumps at subpages which were then taken over by User:201.86.138.29. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

CSD U5 every page, as they are clearly not here for building the encyclopedia? I added the notification of this discussion to user's and IP's talk pages. jni ^(delete)_{...just not interested} 10:58, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Stalking, venomous Attacks on my talk page, and sequential reverts of all my edits

See my talk page and List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2014‎, and then check the editors contribs. Just hostility and incomprehensible edit summaries, with one aim, to revert any work I do. I would appreciate some administrative oversight. Thank you.Nishidani (talk) 15:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Bishonen blocked the user two minutes after you filed this report. Nyttend (talk) 17:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Amrit Ghimire Ranjit

• Amrit Ghimire Ranjit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Since I had seen these changes[192]-[193]-[194] to Hindu astrology, with the reasons like "This section will make India centric. So it is better to remove it", it was becoming obvious that this user's main purpose is to promote Nepali POV. His contributions have either got some error or they are very one sided. Diffs:-

[195] -[196] Sikkim is not a country or territory.

[197] - Not written in English, unrelated too.

[198] Removing every other location, except Lumbini, with the explanation "Ok then I will publish Mahatma Gandhi was born in Nepal", "What if I publish Mahatma Gandhi was born in Nepal?"[199]- [200]

[201] - POV wording.

Moved Hindu nationalism to Hindu nationalism in India because "The article is fully concentrated to India only" [202]

Forking List of World Heritage Sites in Southern Asia for making a List of World Heritage Sites in Nepal[203], redirect seemed to have been established for a long time and when I reverted this Wikipedia:Content forking, he considered it to be vandalism[204] because "Same page for India is acceptable but that for Nepal is not accepted?"[205]

On Template:Gautama Buddha, he keeps inserting Lumbini,[206]-[207] but the status of Buddha had no connection with Lumbini.

Template:History of South Asia - Clear violation of 3rr [208]-[209]-[210]-[211]-[212] and Nepali POV [213] he is removing Indian subcontinent because he finds that word to be similar to India.

It is usually unclear that what he is speaking about, due to severe competence issues, he told Acalamari that I am threatening him for Legal threat[214].

I have tried to discuss with him, but he misrepresents me or the policies, and carry out personal attacks, see Amrit Ghimire Ranjit#Buddha.27s birthplace, Amrit Ghimire Ranjit#What is vandalism and what is not. He would hardly ever discuss about the subject, he would try to distract from it, as much as he can and continue reverting. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:33, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Behavior of User:Eightball

• Eightball (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Yesterday afternoon, a disgrameent ensued over the inclusion of a flag in 2015_Formula_One_season. This quickly developed into a fierce dispute including a violation of WP:3RR. User:Eightball has reverted other users' contributions labeling them vandalism and calling the users making them liars [215], [216], [217]. The user has harassed other users involved on their talk pages [218], [219], has declared their intention not to discuss to keep reverting despite already being in violation of WP:3RR [220], and declared their intention not to accept consensus [221]. During the discussion process the users has repeatedly issued personal attacks through calling disagreeing users vandals and liars [222], [223]. I consider the attitude Eightball diplayed in the dispute utterly unacceptable. I will not deny that my own behavior was not what it should have been (in particular, I reverted to much which I deeply regret). I've allowed myself to be dragged into this way to deeply. What I would like to see is for this user to learn to collaborate constructively with other users instead of calling them liars and vandals. That they learn to respect other users' opinions and that at that at times the community disagrees with them. I would also like that this user learns to have respect for the Wikipedia policies such as WP:Consensus, WP:3RR,... Tvx1 (talk) 16:31, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Gamergate (again)

The article Gamergate_controversy has been unprotected for less than an hour. Edit warring began within minutes in order to restore the allegation that Zoe Quinn exchanged sexual favors for favorable reviews. These allegations are unsupported by reliable sources, and indeed have been frequently refuted. Nevertheless, editors insist that the longstanding heading language must report the Allegations without qualifier, or with only the qualifier "unproven".

This page needs eyes (and IMHO protection) urgently. Obviously, Wikipedia’s repeating an untrue allegation about a game developer's sexual history involves BLP, and given the prominence of the issue. Note that I believe I may have violated 3RR under the BLP exemption and hope this was done appropriately. I'd appreciate it if the authorities could take over now. [[224]] MarkBernstein (talk) 16:57, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Considering how long this nonsense has been going on, protecting it for only ten days was Pollyannish at best. It should be re-protected for a lengthier time, like say a year or two, and then reverted back to the last non-BLP-violating version. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:09, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

And mybe MarkBernstein should assume good faith before making such accusations because I made it clear that that wasn't my intentions Avono (talk) 17:19, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

 Done Gamaliel's already full protected it again. NE Ent 17:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Per Bugs, I've extended protection. Chaos seems to erupt whenever protection expires or is downgraded, so we ought not let it expire again so soon. For a while, full protection was set to expire in late April, so I've put it back to that; other admins are welcome to downgrade it if they believe it necessary (no need to ask me or notify me; I don't care about the topic), although I'd advise against it. Nyttend (talk) 17:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure protection was necessary. User Avono seems to concede the issue to MarkBernstein's suggestion.--v/r - TP 17:51, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it was necessary because of this specific incident, but that wasn't the reason for the extension of protection; I did it because of the longer-term trends, and I would have believed protection necessary even without this specific incident. Nyttend (talk) 17:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Plus, long term protection violates WP:PILLAR as this is supposed to be the Wikipedia that everybody can edit, not the encyclopedia that any admin can protect a page for a long amount of time just because it has 'problems'. A lot of page have freakin' editing problems. NPOV, biased content, tendendious editors. The solution to those problems is to discuss on the talk page, (and maybe file for enforcement for the more conduct related) not shut down all editing for literally 5 months because you think 'it'll calm down after that'. That's a fool's errand, and just delays the problem. You should absolutely use full protection for short periods of time, but not for this longer period since it happily negates any meaningful discussion on the talk page. I urge to you restore the full protection original date. This I also believe is unprecedented. Tutelary (talk) 18:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary, no one is being oppressed. If you have a particular edit suggestion, propose it on the talk page, get consensus, and then sit back and enjoy the improved product. Drmies (talk) 21:50, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Not worth worrying about here and now. Twenty four hours after this [225] vote, the criteria was met for the opening of an arbcom case. (The actual declaration depends on the availability of an arbcom clerk, who are volunteers like the rest of us.) NE Ent 18:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm extremely happy to see the page receive long-term protection. If anything resembling a consensus can be established on the talk page, then it can go into main article space. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• The article should not be removed to a semi-permanent draft version that will serve like an admin-only Pending Changes article. Such a concept goes against our core policies. I will recognize that there is a major effort by parties to advance an agenda, but semi-protection and the sanctions on the page are tools enough to control the matter without becoming draconian. Wikipedia is a neutral party, but compromising our standards and processes sets a bad precedent and it indicates that Wikipedia is helpless to regulate, control and maintain high-visibility articles. Full protection only projects vulnerability and shame in our self-regulation because when we pride ourselves on the notion that "anyone can edit" Wikipedia. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The sanctions did not prevent (false) allegations about a young woman’s sexual history from being posted to article space within five minutes of the end of protection. The sanctions have not prevented Ryulong's doxxing and the shameful anti-semitic rants against him offsite, nor have they yet taken effective measures against relentless speculation about other unsourced claims [[226]], nor an admin’s repeated talk-page assertion that two reliable sources that refer to an image as a "rape joke" must be wrong because no static image can depict rape. This page needs an extended time-out, and related pages need watchful eyes. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Uh, we can only deal with the vandalistic edit after the fact, and that's an oversight that has happened to other articles before. (Not restoring semi protection after full protection and a vandalistic edit gets through) To try to say that the article should be protected for 5 months because of a single vandalistic edit is absolutely crazy. And we don't control what happens off site, and linking to a general enforcement page in which the user is warned is not productive. Also commenting on deal dispute matters which you don't like the reply of an admin is also not exactly relevant to the topic. Also please don't insult or personally attack other editors, per WP:NPA. Tutelary (talk) 19:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The accusations against Quinn was the focal point for all of Gamergate, and discussed many many times in reliable sources, and considered refuted by most of those reliable sources. It has been long since accepted in talk page discussion that in discussing those allegations as the starting point and the fact they've been pretty much disproven is not a violation of BLP. Further, you need to stop misquoting me and making veiled personal attacks. --MASEM (t) 19:01, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm getting real tired of the harassment I'm getting. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:03, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Draconian Proposal

On the one hand, I agree with the comment that putting the article under several months of full page protection, which amounts to Pending Changes by admins, and gives too much power to admins, is contrary to Wikipedia policy that anyone can edit as long as they do not edit disruptively. On the other hand, it does appear that every time page protection expires, someone re-inserts the sexual allegations against Zoe Quinn, and the sexual allegations are an intolerable biographies of living persons violation, and potentially libelous, and Wikipedia has a legal and moral responsibility to remove them again summarily. Therefore, I propose the remedy that we establish that anyone who re-inserts the allegations with any wording other than “false” should immediately (without further warning) be topic-banned by any uninvolved administrator, and may be immediately blocked in order to allow time for the topic-ban to be posted. It should be understood that any wording of the allegations short of ‘false’ (and ‘unproven’ is short of ‘false’) is an attempt to weasel around the ban on re-inserting the allegations and so not permitted. With this specific definition of sanctionable conduct, perhaps we can go back to short-term rather than long-term page protection. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose There is no need for this; this is what the general sanctions are supposed to handle. The editors that edit warred (both ways) over long-established phrasing should be warned and/or have sanctions enforced to mitigation the issue. Doing this type of solution, having admin actions on specific details, I can see grow way too fast out of control. --MASEM (t) 19:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, as the sanctions would cover this and, if things were to change in the future, would preempt the ability of the article to change with time. Terrible suggestion. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:00, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support as necessary (extended page protection is also necessary). Also -- and knowing that I am walking directly up to the line of WP:CIVIL here, both MASEM and Thargor Orlando, opposing above, fought long and hard today to make the sexual allegations as visible as possible, and their discussion as protracted as possible,MarkBernstein (talk) 20:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
  • This is simply untrue. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Sanctions cover this sort of stuff. Redundant and unnecessary. Tutelary (talk) 20:30, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose As this was never the issue. Avono (talk) 20:39, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
• oppose --DSA510 Pls No H8 20:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - unnecessary per above. ansh666 21:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Follow-Up Reply, and Alternate Suggestion

I see that consensus is running against my draconian proposal. I can understand that. I also see that it is said that the sanctions should cover the issue of the deletion of the word "False", which has been done several times today (along with other stuff) before full page protection was imposed. Is there a noticeboard for requesting that actual sanctions, such as topic-bans, be imposed under the general sanctions? If these were Arbcom discretionary sanctions, I would know how to request action. Is this the proper noticeboard? If so, is it in order to request that the editors who changed "False Allegations" to "Allegations", aware of the general sanctions, be topic-banned from the article? It appears that the general sanctions are not being used effectively to deal with disruptive editing that violates BLP guidelines. Is that because full page-protection is easier for admins to impose, or why? Are the general sanctions not being used effectively, or are they not suitable for being used effectively? Can the editors who removed "False" be topic-banned? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:33, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The sanctions page is [227]. Other than the initial flurry, and today's topic ban of DSA (after a at least one previous request and two or more trips here), enforcement has been glacial and, in my view, ineffective. Not only was the False allegations edit warred, but a subsequent edit war broke out on the talk page over whether discussion of Zoe Quinn’s sex life could be hatted or whether the five pillars require that the BLP violations remain prominently visible on the talk page. Yesterday's rape discussion was, in my view, beyond belief and also deserves close scrutiny, which I have been inviting just as I felt I had to open this discussion with my own 3RR violation. That this should be necessary to gather attention to the matter is unfortunate, but if attention is being paid otherwise, its effects are not evident to attentive onlookers. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

If you're going to slander me, at least ping me. I don't sit around all day looking through contribs, so I'd prefer i know who is slandering my name, and where and when. --DSA510 Pls No H8 23:43, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

As your conduct was not under discussion here, and as it's not clear that you could contribute to this discussion (having been topic banned), it didn't occur to me. I'm regret the omission, @DungeonSiegeAddict510.MarkBernstein (talk) 01:01, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Just changing "false allegations" to "allegations" one time is in no way a violation of the general sanctions though trout-worthy due to the fact the issue has been discussed much per talk archives (and while using "false" is still controversial, is generally considered a stable solution at the present time), but edit warring over that would be. --MASEM (t) 02:02, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, for crying out loud. Telstar introduced the issue [[228]], reverted by NorthBySouthwestBaranof. Telstar restated the BLP violation again [[229]], was stepped on by Avono introducing the draft revision wholesale, and again reverted by NorthBySouthwestBaranof. Avono immediately reverted to plain "Allegations" [[230]], reverted by me. Avono tries to replace "Allegations" with "Unproven allegations", reverted by me. As I'm reporting myself to ANI for that revert (head of this discussion), Gamaliel protects the page.

MASEM knows this. MASEM can, presumably, read view history just as well as I can. I know people hate drama here, but in the post above, MASEM can only be intentionally misleading his colleagues -- what other explanation can we offer for the edit immediately above. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:46, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

For further reference, MASEM's talk page edits today insisting on fuller exposure of Zoe Quinn's sex life, and attempting to argue that the allegations concerning her alleged exchange of sexual favors for editorial coverage were not false, in the teeth of (as far as I am aware) unanimous reliable sources: [[231]], [[232]] (page is protected at this point), [233], [234],[[235]] (worrying that new editors might not be familiar with Zoe Quinn's sex life), [[236]] (alluding to 'more sexual accusations which we will not discuss because they're not true either, except we have to mention again and again that they were alleged), [[237]], plus five subsequent diffs that interested readers can pursue as easily as I through View History. All of this, mind you, was closely coordinated with a small group of associated editors who play assigned roles: one is always careful to claim neutrality (while invariably favoring more discussion of Zoe Quinn's private life), one is more aggressive, a third is now topic-banned. But, after a whole day parsing whether or not "sodomy" is a good euphemism for rape and asserting that a static image cannot n any case refer to rape -- again in the teeth of the sources and defiance of art history and semiotics and common sense -- if this is, on a page already subject to sanctions and already at ArbCom -- if this is not misconduct, then let's just turn out the lights right now. MarkBernstein (talk) 04:01, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Please stop personally attacking me. --MASEM (t) 04:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

With respect MASEM, I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking the pattern of your edits on the page in question which (a) have consistently ignored WP:BLP in favor of prurient inquiry into the sexual history of a game developer whom the sources and you yourself agree is blameless, (b) bitterly contested efforts to at least hat the BLP violations on the talk page which you could easily have ended, (c) have facilitated a coordinated POV attack on this page and its talk page which is known to be coordinated offsite, and where your aid is specifically cited as an important asset, and where (d) these tactics are openly discussed. I confess that WP:CIVILity in the teeth of facilitating threats of rape against my colleagues, which you spend yesterday defending, was difficult. But you assert above that one edit was made, when all can plainly see -- and you very clearly knew -- that many edits had been made and that you spend hours -- literally -- defending them personally. MarkBernstein (talk) 04:30, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Elvis Image Usage

The following Elvis image is under public domain.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:King_Creole_poster.jpg

Can I publish this image on my book without getting the permission from the Elvis estate.61.245.173.186 (talk) 17:55, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

This kind of question is better suited for the Media Copyright Questions page. Let me just remind you that there are other kinds of intellectual property issues besides copyright — you may need to check into trademarks (who knows, they might have trademarked one of the two images?), personality rights, and other types. Talk to a lawyer. Nyttend (talk) 18:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice.61.245.168.91 (talk) 19:33, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Abuse of talk page access at User talk:Reguyla, and requesting writing of guidelines for use of talk page by blocked users

I believe I am justified from the nature of the recent edits to the page listed above as per here to request that Reguyla's access to his talk page be revoked for the duration of his block. I also believe that there is good reason to perhaps request that we have some serious attention to what sort of activity editors who are blocked from editing everything but their user talk page can and cannot engage in during the time of their block. John Carter (talk) 20:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Trout: This page is on my watch list, as pretty much all pages I edit, and if I see continuing misuse of this page... just unwatch his talk page if you don't like what he posts on it. Nothing is against policy, though maybe some of it could be moved to a subpage.

In fact, everyone should just unwatch his talk page. That goes for Chillum, Beeblebrox, etc. They have no good reason to be there and it smacks of drama-mongering. KonveyorBelt 20:30, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

A valid concern, but it does not address the matter of the numerous pings the editor has fairly regularly made to draw attention to his page, which are rather clearly visible, or the request I made, admittedly possibly in the wrong place, to have some clarification of what sort of use of user talk pages should be permitted for editors who are blocked from editing everything but their user talk pages.John Carter (talk) 20:41, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x2 As far as clarifications on talk page access, I don't think that further rules and bureaucracy would help. Rather, I think just standard discretion and common sense on the part of admins should determine what is clearly inappropriate and what isn't. His complaints are not out of line, thus yet, but if they devolve into purely disruptive and offensivepersonal attacks, then that is something of greater concern. KonveyorBelt 21:00, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The use of pings or anything else which triggers the notification system seems inappropriate for a user confined to his/her talk page, since it causes text to appear on other pages, contrary to the intention of the ban. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 21:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

And if the guidelines regarding what is and is not acceptable for editors whose edits are confined to their user talk page don't say that clearly yet, I think they should. John Carter (talk) 21:11, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 21:27, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

To quote the closing of the community unban discussion "Accordingly, the block on Reguyla should be adjusted to 6 months from today, counting this discussion as the community's offer to return and 6 months of zero disruption as Kumioko's acceptance"

These are the terms the community came up with and the closure that was accepted by that community.

I see 4 options:

1. We reset the 6 month offer we have given him where Reguyla is to make zero disruptions as was the community offer and we allow him talk page access.
2. We reset the 6 month offer we have given him where Reguyla is to make zero disruptions as was the community offer and we we remove talk page access. In the spirit of not giving him too much rope.
3. We withdraw the offer because Reguyla did not accept it.
4. We ignore this behavior and let the timer run out.

I support option 2 as I really don't think this user recognizes that starting a sentence with "Bullshit!" is not civil and is above zero disruption. If he can not sock puppet or send any nasty e-mails during this time we welcome him/him back with open arms.

I don't like option 1 because I am sure he will just do it again, I don't like option 3 because I know this person can be an asset to the project

I cannot abide by option 4 as the offer from the community was very generous and today alone we have:

"Bullshit! Your remarks were intended to be a personal attack"... and "another typical crap Arbitration decision written by people who don't know anything about arbitration"..."mindless admins trying to make a reputation for themselves". That is today, there are other examples on other days. If the community came to a consensus that this user needs to show zero disruption for six month then that is what I want to see from this user. Chillum 20:50, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I would favor either the first or second of the options listed above, probably option 2 as the preferable among them. I haven't myself looked that much at the page prior to his recent pinging of me and others, so I don't know how much misuse had been done earlier. And I would also support clarifying to him as clearly as possible exactly what does and does not qualify as a disruption as per the zero disruptions. I would assume any pinging of any other editors regarding matters of articles and/or discussion on pages which the editor is not allowed to edit would qualify, but clearly indicating to the editor involved what will and will not qualify as disruption would be very welcome. And sorry about the ridiculous length of the section title. John Carter (talk) 21:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I also wanted to point out that I explained what was considered acceptable talk page use for a banned user in September. Chillum 21:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

And the pinging seems to rather clearly, if not specifically, qualify as inappropriate use as per that link, and I very much thank you for it. John Carter (talk) 21:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• No, it doesn't rather clearly violate anything. He's inviting people to discussion on his talk page, and as others have noted he has not devolved into personal attacks. He is highly critical of a variety of things happening on Wikipedia. There is nothing wrong with criticism. When it devolves into name slinging, that is different, but that is not what is happening. If you don't want to be pinged, ask him not to. It's that simple. He's respecting Beeblebrox's request to do so. Just drop the damn sticks and walk away already. This is being turned into more of a mess than it need be because of the people getting up in arms over what amounts to...NOTHING. Just ignore the pings and/or ask him not to ping you. If he continues to ping you after being asked to ping, then fine. But, in the meantime you're adrift in a sea of bureaucracy because there is no policy governing the use of ping while blocked, there's questions marks as to whether this is a ban or a block, etc. Just drop it. Walk away. Disengage. The microphone is only on because _you_ (I mean that collectively to anyone/everyone) are letting it be on by way of paying attention to his talk page. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• The above looks to be a rather longish comment which seems to me to state rather clearly that "pinging" is in a grey area, and that one of the things I requested in the beginning is clarification regarding the use of pinging. And it seems to me to be completely irrational to say that the "microphone is only on because" other people are letting it be used. The pinging is the microphone in this case, and some clarification regarding the appropriate or inappropriate use of it would be useful. This matter raises that issue naturally, and it does seem to be a reasonable question, considering there is to my eyes very much a "slippery slope" regarding what would qualify as appropriate pinging and what would not for an editor blocked from everything but his user talk page. John Carter (talk) 21:51, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• What is wrong is that there is a grey area, but no matter; people calling for his head on a platter anyway. Let's just make up policy by fiat, and retroactively apply it to Reguyla. Easy, right? The solution doesn't involve use of tools. The solution involves not paying attention to him and/or asking him not to ping you, if you are being pinged. This discussion might inform changes in policy, but it is flat wrong to change his block settings based on a perceived offense because he properly used a feature available in the software. He is honoring requests not to ping him. Use it. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:08, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• I believe what is wrong here is the completely irrational and unsupported jumping to conclusions in the above comment. And, as the comments involved regarding the arbitration election are not among those which are indicated as acceptable as per appropriate usages, I believe that even the statement that this is a "grey area" is at best dubious, and once again request the closing admin to take note of the full discussion in his closing. John Carter (talk) 22:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• You have a choice before you. People can drop the stick and walk away, in which case the 'disruption' (which, it isn't) stops since they won't be involved in it. Or, they can continue to fan the flames, insulting Reguyla and creating far more heat than light. Reguyla can do nothing to the project. Do you understand that? He is blocked (not banned, which is not an esoteric discussion), and can't do anything BUT edit his talk page. He is honoring non-ping requests. Use it. End of 'problem'. --Hammersoft (talk) 03:18, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Reset the clock and throw away the key. He shouldn't be pinging anyone from anywhere using one of his 196 soapboxes. Leaky Caldron 21:46, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

What gray area? The terms of the unblock was zero disruption, no gray there. "mindless admins" is an attack against admins who are people. Some disruption is more than zero disruption. The community was very clear and the waters are not muddy.

No need to make up new policy Hammersoft, WP:BAN already says what can be done on a talk page. You can pretty much only appeal your ban. I told him this in September.

We should take away his talk page privileges for sure because the only legitimate uses under WP:BAN is for appealing the ban and we did that and gave him a way back in. The 6 months should probably be reset because the community asked for 6 months of zero disruption as a condition. Chillum 22:28, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Facepalm. I was just thinking this week "wow, it's impressive how Kumi is really serving out his ban terms in quiet good faith," but as it turns out, I'd just removed his talk page from my watchlist in one cleanout or another. I don't necessarily think that him using his talk page while banned would be a ban-terms violation. Policy doesn't strictly say that he can't comment on his talk page while banned, and I was prepared when I read this ANI to tell everyone to take a deep breath and calm down. However, what I see on reading that talk page isn't just "commenting on articles that need fixing", or even "sharing opinions about ongoing community stuff". Those things are there, but I also see bad faith, continuing accusations of persecution, overuse of pings to draw other editors in at his whims, and generally holding forth about how horrible everyone/thing is in exactly the same manner that led him into trouble in the first place. There's some improvement, too, but it's like any time he's not consciously thinking "ok don't talk about how everyone is awful and how they've persecuted me", it slips back in full-force. Whether his using his talk page is a strict violation of "what WP:BAN or WP:BLOCK says you can do" or not, they way he's using it is disruptive and he seems to be continuing the same behavior that led to his long spiral of trouble in the first place. I can't find it in myself to be comfortable with him auto-returning in a few months while following the same disruptive path that got us here in the first place. If nothing has changed at this point, and he doesn't even seem to recognize that anything needs to, there's no reason to think it will have in four months.

  I would very regretfully support either options 1 or 2 from Chillum's list, but given that I don't think Kumi/Reg set out with an attitude of "aha, the ban clearly says I can't do this, so I'll do it anyway!" I'd rather go with a one-time, last warning along the lines of Reguyla is instructed to cease using his talk page to express opinions on the community, its processes, or other editors, or to summon other editors for non-ban-related discussions, for the remaining duration of his ban. Failure to do so will cause the ban length to be reset and his talk page access to be removed".

  I'm...really amazed at how disappointed it makes me to be having this discussion. I was so damn impressed and so looking forward to watching him return to content work. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 22:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Policy does say you cannot use your talk page while banned, except to appeal your ban. This seems to support your view. Chillum

And his comments about the arbitration election, about which he pinged several people, do not qualify as appealing his ban in any way shape or form. John Carter (talk) 22:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Support Fluffernutter's final warning at this time. I'm unhappy at the double standards, many editors would get away without a warning for the comments, there shouldn't be a different interpretation of what constitutes disruption as a mechanism to keep a blocked/banned editor from returning to productive editing. Nick (talk) 22:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Giving him a final warning when the only thing he is allowed to post is an appeal and his appeal is already accepted is just giving him rope to hang himself. He has no legitimate use of his talk page so give him the ban appeal e-mail address and remove talk page access.

I still think since the community came to a consensus that there should be 6 months of zero disruption that we cannot leave it at 13+ weeks left without disregarding consensus. It should be reset from the time of his last disruptive act.

Putting aside petty talk page violations his most recent personal attack was just a few hours ago. Chillum 22:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I thought this comment which I made and which was, so far as I can tell, ignored, at least in terms of that editor's conduct, was already fairly clearly a "final warning" John Carter (talk) 22:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

@Chillum: Please do not misconstrue criticism as personal attacks. In the diff you supplied, Reguyla was criticizing ArbCom, not any one person. You may not like his criticism, but it does have some validity. Criticism <> personal attacks. If there are actual personal attacks, I'd welcome the presentation of it. This isn't it. --Hammersoft (talk) 03:43, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The oft-repeated claim that the "only use" of a blocked users talk page is unblock appeal / ban requests is not supported by WP:BAN, and I challenge anyone to link to and / or quote the section that supports that.

The fundamental problem is that "Notifications" were added relatively recently and they provide a loophole to the lockdown of the user. I made a request at Wikipedia_talk:Notifications#Blocked_users_pinging in response to another incident; more voices there would be appreciated.

I got a ping from K /Reguyla sometime in the past month and personally found it very easy to ignore.

Anyway, I recommend a final "do not ping" anyone anymore final warning (no clock resetting). NE Ent 23:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I will meet that challenge, from WP:BAN:

Unless otherwise specified, a ban is a site ban. An editor who is site-banned is forbidden from making any edit, anywhere on Wikipedia, via any account or as an unregistered user, under any and all circumstances. The only exception is that editors with talk page access may appeal in accordance with the provisions below.

Provisions mentioned below:

Post an appeal or comment there and ask (by email or other off-site means) for it to be reposted to the appropriate discussion. This is a voluntary act, and should not be abused or used to excess.

and

Appeal by email directly to the Arbitration Committee. An e-mail appeal must specify the banned editor's Wikipedia username and any other usernames he or she has used to edit Wikipedia in the past two years. (Using Wikipedia's email feature to email Ban Appeals Subcommittee automatically reveals the account used for sending it.) The appeal should clearly but succinctly explain the reasons the editor feels the ban should be overturned, such as what lessons the editor has learned since the ban or block was imposed, how the editor would conduct himself or herself differently in the future if they are allowed to resume editing, or why they believe the ban was unfair. The editor should also include links to any relevant on-wiki discussions and any other information necessary to understand the grounds for the appeal.

The second one does not seem to have anything to do with talk pages but is in the list of allowed actions by banned users with access to their talk page so I included it.

Same thing I quoted this user in September. Chillum 23:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

He's not banned. He's blocked per the AN close Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/User:Kumioko_ban_review#Close. I did screw by using the word "ban," sorry. NE Ent 23:23, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The deal was he was unbanned after 6 months of zero disruption. Chillum 23:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

"Closed with a modification of Kumioko's community ban to a 6-month block, as an implementation of the standard offer." NE Ent 23:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I admit I may be misinterpreting things. @Protonk: When you said Accordingly, the block on Reguyla should be adjusted to 6 months from today, counting this discussion as the community's offer to return and 6 months of zero disruption as Kumioko's acceptance. did you mean that the Reguyla is immediately unbanned and blocked for six months, or did you mean that the block setting should be set to 6 months and after 6 months of zero disruption be unbanned? Did you mean something else? Chillum 23:31, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

If the fact is that the user is in fact blocked rather than banned I will drop that stick right now and apologize. Regardless the recent personal attack justify a reset of the 6 months. A final warning regarding person attacks resulting in another reset and loss of talk page privileges too. Chillum 23:34, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll have to think about this for a bit and look at the talk page posts so far. The block was altered correctly (allowing talk page access) and I think the intent was that they would be free to communicate on their, but with zero disruption. I mentioned on the ban closure that I didn't want the community to adopt a zero tolerance approach once they return but while they're serving out the ban I think anything that resembled the behavior during the ban is cause enough to tell them to stop immediately. But like I said, I'll need a bit to make a firm decision. Protonk (talk) 00:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

@Chillum: I don't have a good answer for you. The Land may have a better one. I think they're still banned, but we just allowed them to use the talk page normally as a courtesy (I had hoped use would be infrequent and innocuous). I don't know how to thread the needle on what that means for the current situation.

So my first thought is that we didn't get the logistics of the ban appeal down very well. Rather than wikilawyer about banned/blocked, as I think immediately extending talk page access means that Reguyla probably had a reasonably expectation they were in the latter category vis a vis talk page access when they did so without controversy. I also don't think the mentions themselves are disruptive, per se. But damn if I'm not frustrated and disappointed with the tone and wikilawyering here. I'll have more later. Protonk (talk) 01:40, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I think this whole blocked/banned thing is a distraction. Lets make it a given that he can edit his talk page. The use of it for personal attacks is certainly a violation of the zero disruption stipulation. Chillum 01:43, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree it's a distraction and that is a good stipulation. I'd be willing to give them a little leeway until now, when this has been explicitly clarified, but that's merely a suggestion. Protonk (talk) 02:50, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

So, Kuimoko has been allowed to use his alternate user-talkpage, wrongly. Yet, my user-talkpage was barred for all but the first 2-weeks of my own ban. Not fair, not fair at all. GoodDay (talk) 02:58, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Review of Carter's behaviour requested

While we're here, does John Carter know not to template the regulars?

This appears to be a level 3(!) templated warning to a regular, after a single undo to a project that Carter admits to being involved with!

Odd behaviour? It sure is, but it was justified by a really stupid edit summary "(Undid revision 634115966 by Demiurge1000 (talk) founders may not, but this is now a 3-1 WP:CONSENSUS decision that the discussion be taken somewhere else as it seems nonproductive here)". I am really interested to learn where 3 friends and 1 opposer equals a "consensus". Does John understand the concept?

Just to quash any possible rebellion, John himself turned up on my talk page to deliver the templated warning mentioned.

It would be great if we could restrict someone so ignorant to appropriate areas only. I am willing to entertain and encourage involvement from John Carter for the time being, if he will learn to treat other editors with respect.

I would be willing to mentor him if he is willing to learn. If he cannot learn, then eventually some limits will need to be set on his behaviour. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:39, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Does this have anything to do with anything this thread has been talking about? If so, can you clarify how? If not, could you please pursue it in a new thread or something, to keep things untangled? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 01:10, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's the John Carter behaviour. An apology would be acceptable, anything else would be rather a shortfall. This should be obvious. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:49, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

It's late and I'm going to bed but this wholesale, random behaviour doesn't look right to me

[238]] Leaky Caldron 23:46, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Blocked by Nick. Is there some magic tool to revert the recent revert en masse? NE Ent 23:51, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

User not here to build an encyclopedia

Immortal_Discoveries (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User added a bunch of unsourced original research (doubtful usefulness, certainly unacceptable phrasing) to the articles "Thought" and "Immortality". He responded to reversion by claiming (quote) "I have correct answers that are true" (see WP:THETRUTH) and generally being silly.

I explained a few relevant policies and guidelines (WP:NOR and so forth), to which he responded by asking me to debate his ideas. When I more or less summed up WP:NOTHERE, WP:NOTFORUM and WP:NOTSOAPBOX for him, he ignored the point and acted as though we have a duty to entertain his pretense at philosophy. I asked him outright if he was here to contribute to the encyclopedia or argue his personal beliefs about senses and thought, and he responded by trying to continue his debate.

We've either got a troll, or someone incapable of the mindset to build an encyclopedia. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:45, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Hello, all of you are useless yourself, wrong, we do each have 5 senses, idk how that could not be said anywhere! You's are very crazy! Talking about thinking/thought/ideas I am the best perfect thinker, and I only get 5 senses, they work and link with eachother and are the understanding such as seeing a object or game or 8 sheets changing order and lik so~! I can choose through them, or to move a arm unless all automated by mechanics.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Immortal_Discoveries (talk • contribs)

Exhibit A, everyone. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:56, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and this certainly falls under WP:SPA and WP:ADVOCACY, if not WP:FRINGE. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:58, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Should add something that definitely is correct, only 5 senses a consciousness like I or you have. I will get all my answers governized. Time for corrections, plato and you's!— Preceding unsigned comment added by Immortal_Discoveries (talk • contribs)

Edit warring on List of Power Rangers Dino Charge episodes

Can someone please check this page? There's been an edit war by someone trying to get it deleted. Anyone who tries to create this page gets accursed as being a " sockpuppet " of a blocked user. This has got to stop. The subject is legitamate and the next power rangers season will be call "Dino Charge" . Denny Saure (talk) 01:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

• The above comment was the third edit by Denny Saure (talk · contribs). Johnuniq (talk) 02:23, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Death of Molly Bish

IP editor 64.222.129.90 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and logged-in user CoffinNails420 (talk · contribs), who seem to me to be likely to be one and the same, have been posting screeds of accusatory material into the Death of Molly Bish article that are, at the very least, a violation of WP:BLP. I've revision-deleted both their edits and the edit comments. It may be necessary to protect this article to prevent further similar edits. -- The Anome (talk) 01:12, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

BOOMERANG - John Carter

While we're here, does John Carter know not to template the regulars?

This appears to be a level 3(!) templated warning to a regular, after a single undo to a project that Carter admits to being involved with!

Odd behaviour? It sure is, but it was justified by a really stupid edit summary "(Undid revision 634115966 by Demiurge1000 (talk) founders may not, but this is now a 3-1 WP:CONSENSUS decision that the discussion be taken somewhere else as it seems nonproductive here)". I am really interested to learn where 3 friends and 1 opposer equals a "consensus". Does John understand the concept?

Just to quash any possible rebellion, John himself turned up on my talk page to deliver the templated warning mentioned.

It would be great if we could restrict someone so ignorant to appropriate areas only. I am willing to entertain and encourage involvement from John Carter for the time being, if he will learn to treat other editors with respect.

I would be willing to mentor him if he is willing to learn. If he cannot learn, then eventually some limits will need to be set on his behaviour. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:39, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Does this have anything to do with anything this thread has been talking about? If so, can you clarify how? If not, could you please pursue it in a new thread or something, to keep things untangled? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 01:10, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Please try to work this out directly with John before posting on a noticeboard. Chillum 01:30, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:TTR NE Ent 04:27, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

TODAY Show Page

Template:NLivelikemusic Template:Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Livelikemusic keep removing Al Roker from TODAY Show Page when Al been there for years. Template:Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Today (U.S. TV program) Morningtv13 (talk) 02:15, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

User's report is completely biased and uncalled for; as I've explained prior, just because something has been listed prior, does not mean it should remain. Roker's position on Today is completely inappropriate, as I've tried to explain on several occasions to the editor (to their continued disrespect and ignored nature), and user's actions continue to violate template guidelines for their own personal liking; exhibiting signs of owning pages to their own liking, despite template guidelines and attempts to discuss, despite several warnings on their disruptive editing. User is also acting irrationally, yelling and shouted throughout Wikipedia, as well as edit-warring to the point of vandalism. livelikemusic ^{my talk page!} 02:19, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Both of you need to stop editing the article back and forth; instead you should both calm down, let the discussion on the talk page play out, and see if there is any general consensus on this. Wikipedia is not about "winning" and the surest way to ensure that you "lose" any conflict at Wikipedia is to take a "I must win because I am right" mentality. Instead, you both must back off, regardless of whatever state the article is in this minute, leave it there even if it is wrong, and let the discussion on the talk page play out to see where consensus lies. Many thousands of people used to edit Wikipedia and thought that their own "rightness" meant they could force articles to look like they wanted them to. That's why they used to be editors. We'd like you both to stay editors here at Wikipedia, so the path forward is to slow down, let the article be wrong for a few days, and hash out the right article on the talk page. If anyone cannot do that, they're likely to join the ranks of the "used to"s --Jayron32 02:25, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Roker is a weatherman on the series, and is not a presenter on Today; user's irraticla editing and inability to discuss things show severe signs of owning the article and their continued string of edits this editing is borderline vandalism and Wikihounding. I'm merely trying to follow the template guidelines, as citing in my editing. User is against any level of change (taken from their edit history). I'm not trying to "win" anything; I'm merely editing in the best intentions and for the most concise is proper way for Wikipedia in accurate information. User has been against any kind of change since they joined the website a few days ago (following their edit summary history). livelikemusic ^{my talk page!} 02:31, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Al Roker is Co-Host of the third Hour and is part of The TODAY Team. He does segments soemtimes in the 8am Hour. You might as well remove Ginger Zee from good morning america page then. Morningtv13 (talk) 02:26, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Read what I wrote above again. This isn't about being right or wrong. This is about behaving correctly and not fighting back and forth in the article text. You could be right. You could be wrong. It doesn't matter. If you're right, convince others and wait for them to agree with you. That's how you build a consensus. Use the article talk page, treat people with respect, and be willing to not get your way. People who do that spend a long time here at Wikipedia. People who demand other people do what they want merely because they think they are correct do not. You choose. --Jayron32 02:30, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

TODAY Show Page list Al Roker as Co-Host http://www.today.com/allday/al-roker-co-anchor-weather-feature-anchor-6C10110723 Morningtv13 (talk) 02:37, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

You don't need to post the same thing multiple times; once is more than enough. May this silly report be closed, please? livelikemusic ^{my talk page!} 02:39, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry but Al had been listed since the creation of the page. Why did no one remove him in those 12 years then?? He is part of the team and a Weatherman and presenter and TODAY Show page sit him as a co-Host of third Hour. I gave you proof as well but seem you choose to ignore it. Morningtv13 (talk) 02:48, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

To state for record, I have not removed Al since I was told not to; it's you who believes I am. Changing of an NDASH per WP:DASH is not removing him. We can continue to have a discussion on Today's talk page, it's not needed to be here in a report that should've never been opened in the first place and take up time from Wikipedia administrators that would be better placed in other issues. livelikemusic ^{my talk page!} 02:51, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I am talking about the starring section which he belongs. He is till on the show, He is not a Newsanchor or coanchor but he still Co-Host of the third Hour. Sometimes odes segments in the 8 hour. Kathie Lee and Carson Daly aren't Co anchor or News anchors either. If you going by that rule then shouldn't you also remove ginger Zee from the starting section of the Good Morning America page? Morningtv13 (talk) 03:07, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean by the "starring section"? If you mean the list of "presenters" in the infobox at the start of the article, his name is listed there, and has been through the last half an hour of repeated reversions of an en dash instead of a hyphen in his entry, to bring it into compliance with MOS:DASH. Dwpaul ^Talk 03:08, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I am talking about the section where it says presenters. as I said on the TODAY Talk page. they are mostly the same tihng: He is not a Newsanchor or coanchor but he still Co-Host of the third Hour. Sometimes odes segments in the 8 hour. Kathie Lee and Carson Daly aren't Co anchor or News anchors either. If you going by that rule then shouldn't you also remove ginger Zee from the starting section of the Good Morning America page? Morningtv13 (talk) 03:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

You still aren't listening to us. Don't make this argument here. Make this argument at Talk:Today (U.S. TV program) and then do nothing. Let other people comment as well, and see where consensus goes. The behavior that you must have your way now is what is going to cause you problems. The willingness to just wait and see if people agree with you eventually and also the willingness to sometimes not get your way, is a net positive and will let people at Wikipedia see you as a reasonable person. In any event, stop trying to convince people over and over that you are right. Make your case at Talk:Today (U.S. TV program) and then let it go for a few days. Repeatedly saying the same thing over and over doesn't mean you "win", it just means you piss lots off people off. Pissing people off is unlikely to get you what you want. Take my advice. Make your case, then walk away. --Jayron32 03:21, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Roker's name is listed as a presenter, and it has been the entire time you have continued to argue about this for now going on an hour. Will an admin please close this silly complaint? We are still trying to resolve this confusion with this editor on the Talk page of the article. Dwpaul ^Talk 03:23, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Almost identical disruptive editing by 65.92.245.33 and Azertopius

IP user and registered user, only history in their edits is edit warring on multiple (Many identical) pages. Both have been asked to take their controversial edits to talk pages, with no avail. Multiple users reverting their edits on numerous pages. Not sure if IP is User who forgot to log in, but the edit summaries are almost the same, and are both hitting the same realm of articles. Removing French names from Ontario articles, for example, citing "official language status", which is not relevant. --NotWillyWonka (talk) 03:53, 23 November 2014 (UTC)