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Requests for comment

Talk:Mukokuseki#RfC on using the wording "stereotypically Western characteristics" in the lead

(Initiated 91 days ago on 11 April 2024) ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 09:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:Mukokuseki#Close Plz 5/21/2024 Orchastrattor (talk) 20:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

RFA2024, Phase II discussions

Hi! Closers are requested for the following three discussion:

• (Initiated 69 days ago on 2 May 2024) Administrator recall
• (Initiated 67 days ago on 5 May 2024) Designated RfA monitors
• (Initiated 67 days ago on 5 May 2024) Reminder of civility norms at RfA

Many thanks in advance! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

If re-requesting closure at WP:AN isn't necessary, then how about different various closers for cerain section(s)? I don't mind one or two closers for one part or another or more. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

During Phase I of RFA2024, we had ended up having multiple closers for different RFCs, even the non-obvious ones. I think different people closing subparts of this should be acceptable Soni (talk) 09:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Weather#Discussion -- New Proposal for layout of Tornadoes of YYYY articles

(Initiated 62 days ago on 10 May 2024) RFC outcome is fairly clear (very clear majority consensus), however, a non WikiProject Weather person should close it. I was the RFC proposer, so I am classified too involved to close. There were three “points” in the RFC, and editors supported/opposed the points individually. Point one and three had 3-to-1 consensus’ and point two had a 2-to-1 consensus. Just need a non WP:Weather person to do the closure. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 14:39, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Were notifications made to the talk pages of the affected articles and MOS:LAYOUT? voorts (talk/contributions) 21:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Fun in a Chinese Laundry#RfC on "Selected excerpts" section

(Initiated 48 days ago on 23 May 2024) Would benefit from a neutral close to avoid unnecessary drama. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:14, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:FCSB#RfC about the Court Decisions

(Initiated 43 days ago on 28 May 2024)

Apparently badly filed RfC. Needs admin closure. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:45, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Discussion-only period#Early close

(Initiated 41 days ago on 31 May 2024) Since it's an injunctive discussion, I was hoping someone could step in and close after I withdrew my own. Thanks! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics#RfC: Indian PM Counting

(Initiated 40 days ago on 31 May 2024) Hey, please close this RfC on Indian PM counting. There have been no comments for 18 days. GrabUp - Talk 15:33, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Circumcision#Ethics in lead RfC

(Initiated 39 days ago on 2 June 2024) Please close this RfC; discussion has halted for some time now. This is a persistent issue that needs final closure. Prcc27 (talk) 00:35, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting#RfC:_Motherfuckers_or_not

(Initiated 35 days ago on 5 June 2024) Need help with a neutral close. -- GreenC 21:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... TW 03:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#RfC: Should consensus 22 (not calling Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice) be cancelled?

(Initiated 31 days ago on 9 June 2024) - Controversial issue needs experienced closer. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Total
CfD	0	0	12	5	17
TfD	0	0	5	5	10
MfD	0	0	0	0	0
FfD	0	0	1	1	2
RfD	0	0	4	0	4
AfD	0	0	0	0	0

Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2024_June_22#Template:Edit_semi-protected

(Initiated 49 days ago on 22 May 2024) Hasn't had anything new for a while, templates are template-protected. mwwv ^converse∫_edits 15:01, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 12#IRC +10414

(Initiated 45 days ago on 26 May 2024) This RfD has been open for over a month. SevenSpheres (talk) 20:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Other types of closing requests

Talk: 1997 Pacific hurricane season#Proposed merge of Tropical Storm Ignacio (1997) into 1997 Pacific hurricane season

(Initiated 139 days ago on 23 February 2024) Discusion ran its course. 166.198.21.97 (talk) 00:15, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

{{not done}} per #1 yellow ball near the top of this page. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 05:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I fail to see how this is an obvious decision, with the sources presented by the opposer and a neutral. 166.198.21.97 (talk) 11:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS

(Initiated 44 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Srebrenica massacre#Requested_move_2_June_2024

(Initiated 39 days ago on 2 June 2024), Tom B (talk) 09:51, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection

Report

Pages recently put under extended confirmed protection (37 out of 7999 total) () WATCH Page Protected Expiry Type Summary Admin Draft:Saeed Khan Bozdar 2024-07-11 12:19 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Amortias Zionism 2024-07-11 04:39 indefinite move Edit warring / content dispute: Time to stop editing the article and discuss on the talk page. Just noting that I've made this indef to prevent the article auotmatically becoming unprotected and it's a normal admin action so any admin can change it back to ECP. Callanecc China–Israel relations 2024-07-11 00:14 indefinite edit,move Contentious topics enforcement for WP:CT/A-I; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan 1st Tank Brigade (Ukraine) 2024-07-10 22:05 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: per RFPP and WP:RUSUKR Daniel Case Death of Nex Benedict 2024-07-10 19:31 indefinite edit,move Contentious topics enforcement for WP:CT/GG; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Module:WritingCredits 2024-07-10 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 3656 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Template:Non-album single 2024-07-10 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2503 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Template:Film lists by country 2024-07-10 18:00 indefinite edit High-risk template or module: 2789 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Template:Fa bottom 2024-07-10 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2503 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Al-Awda School massacre 2024-07-10 17:47 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement Pppery Russian annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts 2024-07-10 16:44 indefinite edit Move warring Robertsky Channel 14 (Israel) 2024-07-10 15:09 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement; requested at WP:RfPP CambridgeBayWeather June 2024 northern Gaza City airstrikes 2024-07-10 14:52 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement CambridgeBayWeather 9 July 2024 Gaza attacks 2024-07-10 14:49 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement CambridgeBayWeather Tim Sheehy (American politician) 2024-07-09 23:36 indefinite edit,move Per AFD discussion Liz Mostafa Momeni 2024-07-09 22:40 indefinite move See Special:Permalink/1233594577#Administrator needed. Robertsky Mostafa Momeni (geographer) 2024-07-09 22:38 indefinite move Robertsky First Balkan War 2024-07-09 21:39 indefinite edit,move Contentious topics enforcement for WP:CT/EE; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Operation Azm-e-Istehkam 2024-07-09 17:35 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement CambridgeBayWeather Talk:Wikilink 2024-07-09 16:58 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated SuperMarioMan Talk:WBD 2024-07-09 03:35 2024-07-12 03:35 edit,move Apparent (i.e., fairly obvious) IP sock puppetry BD2412 8 July 2024 Ukraine missile strikes 2024-07-09 02:40 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: WP:RUSUKR Johnuniq 3rd Assault Brigade 2024-07-08 23:45 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: per RFPP and WP:RUSUKR Daniel Case Robert Ford (outlaw) 2024-07-08 19:40 2024-07-22 19:40 edit,move Persistent disruptive editing from (auto)confirmed accounts CambridgeBayWeather 128th Mountain Assault Brigade (Ukraine) 2024-07-08 07:17 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: WP:GS/RUSUKR El C 47th Mechanized Brigade (Ukraine) 2024-07-08 06:08 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: WP:GS/RUSUKR El C 59th Motorized Brigade (Ukraine) 2024-07-08 06:08 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: WP:GS/RUSUKR El C Noodle and Bun 2024-07-08 04:22 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated BusterD Draft:Noodle and Bun 2024-07-08 04:02 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated BusterD Felicia Fox 2024-07-08 03:56 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated BusterD China and the Russian invasion of Ukraine 2024-07-08 03:10 indefinite edit,move General sanctions enforcement: WP:RUSUKR.; requested at WP:RfPP: Special:Permalink/1233247791#China and the Russian invasion of Ukraine Red-tailed hawk Adnan Hussain 2024-07-08 02:03 2025-07-08 02:03 edit,move Contentious topics enforcement for WP:CT/A-I; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Late Ottoman genocides 2024-07-07 22:50 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement WP:GS/AA Rosguill July 2020 Armenian–Azerbaijani clashes 2024-07-07 22:49 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement WP:GS/AA Rosguill Draft:Dr shajahan basha 2024-07-07 15:02 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated BusterD Draft:Vandals are cool superheroes 2024-07-07 14:20 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated BusterD Soke Sam Gervasi 2024-07-07 14:09 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated BusterD

TBAN for paid editor

I am requesting a topic ban of User:Danilo Two from Bank of New York Mellon. This person works for the firm, Buetler Ink.

Why?

While this person has disclosed and is putting things through the peer review, the proposals are not grounded in the mission of WP and the policies and guidelines, but rather are raw PR for the client. We have TBANed people in this situation before, for example this thread from April 2017.

The final straw for me is this RfC posted today, which is absolutely un-neutral.

Earlier, they had made a proposal here which as I noted here, was trying to turn the WP page into a proxy for BNY's website, reflecting its current business and status only, and not an encyclopedia article with information of enduring interest. I noted that problem at their talk page in this diff.

Subsequently here they wrote These graphs were not provided by BNY Mellon, but a third party.. They offered no explanation as to why graphs that are independent are somehow "worse", here in Wikipedia. I pointed out that problem to them, on their talk page, here. I also noted at the article talk page that no policy based reason was given.

And now the RfC linked above. I called their attention to how un-neutral the RfC was at their talk page here. They responded by tweaking the RfC here. The RfC statement still makes their argument, instead of posing the question neutrally.

There is no sign that Danilo 2 intends to do anything other than represent what the bank wants. That is not what editing privileges are for, and is an endless time sink for the editing community. Paid editors need to be Wikipedians first, and if they won't be, then we should politely close the door. Jytdog (talk) 19:48, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Disagreeing with you is not grounds for a topic ban. Have you tried Wikipedia:Third opinion? Gamaliel (talk) 20:01, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Never request a Third Opinion with Beutler. If they don't get it, they will then go to DRN, and if necessary to WP:ANI (although with no real issue at ANI). Robert McClenon (talk) 01:11, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Never attempt to service an edit request for Beutler. If you try to help them, they treat you like an employee and think that they have the right to censure you for failure to do their job. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:11, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

No, I complained because another editor had shown a pattern of highly idiosyncratic interpretations of content guidelines in responding to requests. I quickly found there was not a receptive audience here, and so I went back to working through these challenges. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 18:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Gamaliel You have missed the point. Being here to represent the bank, without regard for WP's mission, policies, and guidelines, is not an acceptable use of editing privileges. This is not about the content dispute but rather Danilo 2's behavior. Jytdog (talk) 20:15, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

He's on the talk page starting an RFC, it looks like he has a lot of regard for WP's policies and guidelines to me. Gamaliel (talk) 20:21, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

He sort of knows how to work Wikipedia. I have not denied that. But the RfC itself is far from neutral, which is not valid DR. But thisis again not the point. Using the talk page and certain DR processes in order to advocate for what the bank wants, regardless of the content policies and guidelines, is not being here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to do PR. Jytdog (talk) 20:22, 2 August 2018 (UTC) (tweaked w/o redaction, since this has not been replied to Jytdog (talk) 20:27, 2 August 2018 (UTC))

As long as he's trying to build consensus on the talk page, not editing the page itself, and is fully disclosing his interest, I see no reason for a topic ban. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:24, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Following the paid policy and COI guideline is a minimum - necessary but not sufficient. As noted -- we have TBANed people in this situation before, for example this thread from April 2017. Jytdog (talk) 20:27, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Oppose the editor appears to be diligently following the paid-editing/COI rules. The RFC seems to be worded neutrally-enough; while the argument about different corporate entities isn't terribly convincing, I don't think it's biased. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:32, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

User:power~enwiki on what planet is giving an argument to do X in an RfC about what to do, considered "neutral" in Wikipedia? Jytdog (talk) 22:52, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Earth, apparently. I haven't figured out how to get to any other planets yet. power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:58, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't follow. The wording Should the three graphs covering data for 2000-2008 in the Historical data section of the BNY Mellon article be removed or kept? seems fine to me; the original wording seems acceptable as well. power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:58, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

User:power~enwiki everything above the signature is part of the RfC question. You correctly identify the actual question in the fist line as simple and neutral. But in both versions there is an additional paragraph giving the bank's/Danilo 2's argument. Everything above the signature is part of the "request". Neither version is even close to neutral.Jytdog (talk) 01:07, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I'd like to respond here to defend myself a little. I think a lot of the issues that Jytdog raises are misunderstandings and some come down to preferences on information to present.

First, the request that Jytdog says was aiming to turn the Wikipedia page into a proxy for the company website was aimed at updating the Operations section which typically represents and is framed as the current operations of a company. I am not trying to remove historical data entirely from the article, nor turn the whole page into a company profile, but offer some suggestions to streamline the information and bring it up-to-date. After Jytdog offered his feedback, I didn't push this request further and I've in fact collapsed it (earlier today) and noted that I'd refocus my suggestions based on that feedback.

Second, with regards to the graphs, I believe the way I worded my note has caused some confusion and I'm sorry for that. It was not my intention to say that third-party materials are not appropriate or that information from BNY is better; I was trying to respond to Jytdog's prior note that suggested it would be ideal to add new graphs showing a greater range of information, rather than delete the existing ones. The situation is that the existing graphs were provided by a third-party that owns the copyright; that third-party has produced more up-to-date graphs but they're copyrighted, so can't simply be added to the article due to that. I wanted to clarify that the graphs were produced by someone other than BNY Mellon, to explain that I didn't have access or ability to provide ones that were up-to-date and that keeping the graphs updated would be complicated.

Third, for the RfC, as Jytdog notes, I adjusted it to make it neutral and I'm open to editors' suggestions.

Finally, as Jytdog and others have noted, I'm keeping to the guidelines here and am not editing directly, and I'm responding constructively to feedback. Thanks, Danilo Two (talk) 20:44, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Giving your client's reason for removing the graphs in the statement is not neutral. That you are here arguing it is, is pretty much exactly what I am talking about. Jytdog (talk) 22:50, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

• So Talk:Ogilvy_&_Mather#Edit_request:_Updates_Round_1 is another example of the kind of thing I am trying to articulate. The page has been almost entirely rewritten with reviewed content from Buetler folks - first Heatherer and now Danilo 2 is stepping in. People generally review proposals, and everybody being busy, what usually happens is that the foundation is kept and really just the copy is checked to remove puffery and to ensure the content is supported by the sources. But the aim and overall messaging remains. You will see this if you review the talk page.

Now... Ogilvy & Mather, like most PR agencies today, has been struggling to adapt as more and more companies bring "creative" in-house and as the industry changed from emphasis on "creative" to buying ads in digital media (per this for example; likewise this)

Our article doesn't provide that context (it should, briefly) but different companies have responded in different ways at different times.

Ogilvy responded by profilerating divisions or subsidiaries to handle different aspects in different regions.

Two years ago new management came in, and they have completely done over the company, consolidating most everything into one entity and creating new divisions within it to handle different things. There is an interesting business story there. something people could learn from.

The proposal Talk:Ogilvy_&_Mather#Edit_request:_Updates_Round_1 would just erase the old structure and write in the new one. No context, no sense of history. Just turning the page into Ogilvy's website with a bunch of woo about "rebranding".

There is nothing about building an encyclopedia there. I am sure the proposal will be duly reviewed and implemented and the page made over into Ogilvy's image.

Like the intention at Bank of New York Mellon. Erase history, try to drive the page to express the Bank's messaging today. About today.

Is that we want? I say no. I say that just disclosing and putting up (absolutely formulaic WP-content-looking edits that are actually just PR dreck) for review is not what we want. It is a time suck on the community, and even the best intentioned volunteers generally just polish the turd and don't ask paid editors to write encyclopedic copy (and if they won't, just saying "no thanks" or ignoring it) Leading to pages in WP becoming polished PR turds. Jytdog (talk) 01:01, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support but I don't see why we should bother with a TBAN. Indef and be done with it. All this account has been used for is PR; they are clearly not interested in helping us write an encyclopaedia. The paid editing guidelines are a minimum requirement to comply with the WMF's terms of use. They're not a license to ignore our core content policies and behavioural guidelines (WP:NOTPROMO, WP:COI, WP:DIS & WP:GAME, for example). – Joe (talk) 06:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
• support indef-My primary impressions align with Joe.∯WBG^converse 06:34, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support - what Joe said. If you can get paid to write a good encyclopedia article, I've got no problem with that, as long as you are being open and honest about it. We have some paid editors that do just that. But if you are here to spin a Wikipedia article for your client, go away and don't come back. Y'all haven't forgotten Tony Ahn yet, have you. Stop the time sink now with an Indeff. He gets paid to promote his client. Working our system to do so will always end up in the paid efiedi getting what they want. They are earning their bread and butter by working the system. At some point, every legit editor will have to back away so he or she can go support their family. That's a glitch in our system that we absolutely cannot let paid editors exploit. John from Idegon (talk) 06:40, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support indef No one needs to query my stance on paid editing. Be gone Danilo Two and refund your customers. I don't like users profiting from my 1000s of hours and other volunteer hours protecting Wikipedia from monetary exploitation. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:38, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Nothing this editor has done is out of line with what other paid and COI editors have been allowed to do. We allow [Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2014-10-08/In_the_media political operatives] to edit articles about political opponents, so it's ridiculous to block a paid editor who is completely following policy. Gamaliel (talk) 13:39, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
• I also oppose any sort of restriction at this time. The editor has worked to resolve issues from what I have read of the interactions on the talk page. Describing the RFC as non-neutral can be fixed simply by adding a signature to the first paragraph, which looks like a sufficiently neutral question to me. (I do not know if Jytdog is simply unaware that this is the fix to this issue.) The RFC starter is allowed to give his opinion first in an RFC. I am definitely not seeing any failures to meet our core content policies by the paid editor, nor any of the behavioral ones--and we don't topic ban users unless they do fail to meet the intent of those. --Izno (talk) 14:16, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Izno to be clear, what I am saying is that they are violating WP:PROMO and WP:NPOV by working consistently to make pages simply reflect their client's current business and current messaging, with no regard for our mission to write encyclopedia articles. Wikipedia is not meant to be a proxy for organization websites. However much the content proposed by Danilo Two looks like normal Wikipedia content, it isn't. Jytdog (talk) 14:25, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support Topic-Ban - Beutler is in the business of systematically trying to game the system and is a threat to the integrity of the encyclopedia. (If there is a proposal for a block or ban, I haven't seen it.) Robert McClenon (talk) 01:11, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
• TBAN (preferred) or block if that can't be worked out. Robert McClenon is spot on here: a threat to the integrity of the project. Guy (Help!) 13:03, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
• I was not going to weigh in here, except my name has been invoked a couple of times, and Danilo Two is on vacation this coming week. It goes without saying that I oppose placing any editing restrictions on this user, who is a colleague of mine. Let's back up a moment and recognize that WP:TBAN or WP:INDEF are reserved for editors who are disruptive, which Danilo most certainly is not, and WP:BLOCKNO advises against blocks based on content disputes, which is what this really is (Jytdog opened this thread after Danilo started an RfC). Except Jytdog is trying to make a more abstract case, that simply being a COI contributor is a violation of WP:HERE. This is a novel and dangerous theory to advance: whether you like "paid editing" or not, it is regulated by the WP:COI guideline, and Danilo has followed the advice of pages like WP:PSCOI to the letter. To propose any block or ban would not only be wrong on policy, but it would not serve Wikipedia in the long run. If COI contributors who disclose their relationships and avoid editing mainspace articles are blocked, only undisclosed paid editors will remain, and that would be a threat to the integrity of the project indeed. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 18:30, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @WWB Too: A few points. One, I raised WP:NOTHERE and proposed an indef block, not Jytdog, who as always has displayed an admirable dedication to giving paid editors a fair chance, despite the evident lack of appreciation. Two, it is not remotely "novel" to block editors who are here solely to promote the interests of external organisations. WP:NOTPROMO is a much older policy than WP:COI, and is policy not a guideline. In any case, COI contains the text: If COI editing causes disruption, an administrator may opt to place blocks on the involved accounts; continuously wasting the time of our volunteer encyclopaedia editors with POV attempts to further your clients' PR agenda is disruptive. Paid editors like yourself seem to find it convenient to ignore everything in WP:COI except for the bare-minimum requirements that let you carry on your trade within the terms of use. But in fact, if you actually read it, the overriding message of the guideline is don't edit where you have a conflict of interest, full stop. Discussions like this are the consequence of ignoring that very good advice.

Finally, the tired excuse that you are the lesser of two evils holds no weight: yes, undisclosed paid editing is harder to deal with, but we don't solve that by giving disclosed paid editors a free pass to flout Wikipedia's core principles because they have a template on their talk page. Veiled threats aside, what does this project lose if we revoke Danilo Two's editing privileges? What has he contributed to our shared goal, when he's not being the errand boy for a bank? – Joe (talk) 19:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

If I thought that Danilo Two's actions did in fact "flout Wikipedia's core principles" I would agree with you. But the case for this is non-existent; please look below to my new subsection explaining the underlying disagreement and let me know if you still think it sounds like Danilo was trying to subvert Wikipedia to the company's PR gain. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 20:05, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment See "Corporate Representatives for Ethical Wikipedia Engagement" on Bookfarce. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 19:21, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support - I came here from a note on the CREWE Facebook page. Looking over the material, Jytdog's case is solid. Topic ban or block - David Gerard (talk) 19:32, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support a TBAN at the least, and likely that is the best for all accounts that have a COI with this subject. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 19:38, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose the support votes are largely in favor of a back-door attempt to ban paid editing at an inappropriate forum; such a proposal should be an RFC advertised on WP:CENT. I don't see any other argument for action. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:44, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

  @Power~enwiki: how is TBANning one specific group of editors who are continuously polishing articles that they have a disclosed COI with a 'back-door attempt to ban [all] paid editing at an inappropriate forum'? We are not discussing a change to policy or anything here. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 05:20, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

  No, we are being TOU bludgeoned by a spammer who doesn’t want to follow WP:NOTSPAM, a core policy. Our disclosure and COI review process does not exist to facilitate promotion, and those who use it as such should be sanctioned. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:34, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: I haven't reviewed much of what User:Danilo Two has posted, but I'm disturbed by many of the comments above. In particular, Wikipedia policy and guidelines do not require paid editors to contribute non-paid hours in order to be in good standing. This discussion should not be about (a) why such a (new) policy/guideline is desirable, or (b) getting in yet another swing at the goal of banning all paid editing. I will note that the cited thread from April 2017, is not at all similar - in that example, the editor had edited only one article; used sockpuppets (blocked); had an article ban put in place against her; and was caught placing articles in the press in order to use them as sources. All of that, plus her non-cooperative postings to the article talk page, would be sufficient to get her banned from Wikipedia even if there was no obvious COI. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 20:05, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

User:John Broughton I don't believe anyone has said that paid editors are obligated to volunteer. They are however obligated to follow the content policies and guidelines, and trying to turn WP pages into proxies for company websites and into PR violates WP:PROMO as well as WP:NPOV; articles about companies should be encyclopedic, covering their whole timeline with no particular WEIGHT on the company's current business. But this Danilo Two's proposals consistently do just that, which you would see if you did review their contribs. I had suggested removing them from just that one page, to try to bring their attention to this problem with their approach to WP. Others have taken it further. Jytdog (talk) 20:11, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Jytdog - it's those users who have taken the matter further that concern me. Comments like "don't edit where you have a conflict of interest, full stop", and "I don't like users profiting from my 1000s of hours and other volunteer hours protecting Wikipedia from monetary exploitation" aren't relevant, or helpful. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 00:03, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

User:John Broughton I see. Thanks for clarifying. Discussions like this bring out people with strong feelings on the topic. I disagree that those expressions are irrelevant. Paid editors should be mindful that paid editing is tolerated, not loved, by the community, and that this tolerance is pretty easily exhausted. I write about this some on my userpage at User:Jytdog#Paid_editing_in_particular...but !votes paying attention to the particular issues are of course most heeded by closers. Jytdog (talk) 00:19, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support indef as ArbCom has already ruled, and WP:PAID makes clear, disclosure is a minimum. Individuals who are paid must also follow the policies and guidelines of the English Wikipedia, one of which being an absolute prohibition on promotionalism (WP:NOTSPAM). If someone doesn’t get that, they have no businsss editing. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:34, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support indef. Working under the WP:PAID rules is fine for editors who are helping improve an encyclopedia article in line with NPOV guidelines", but that's not what I see here. What I see is a persistent bludgeoning approach to try to get this article to reflect what the company's PR wants it to say. And that is an abuse of volunteers' time. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:58, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

  And if indef does not gain a consensus, I support a topic ban as my second choice. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:02, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating myself: a fair reading of the discussion at Talk:Bank of New York Mellon will show that Danilo's proposed changes were based on policies and guideline concerns. No one has explained how WP:NOTSPAM was actually violated; any such argument would be extraordinarily weak. Likewise, I've seen the word "bludgeoned" used to describe Danilo's participation twice, but this is uncharitable in the extreme. Danilo and Jytdog previously had a perfectly cordial relationship on this page going back to September 2017, and it's quite baffling to me why this latest round of requests has produced this result. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 13:40, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose as per as per power~enwiki, Gamaliel and Izno. Nobody dislikes paid editing more than I do. However, that is just my personal feeling, but my personal feelings don't come into it. This editor is not doing anything contrary to Wiki policy in regards to paid editing. We cannot change policy willi nilly based on our own personal feelings. This thread comes off as a direct attack on the character of a fellow editor, and I'm not comfortable with that at all especially when they are following the rules. If we make a precedent here based on our own personal feelings without following due process, I fear the knock on effect that will have on this project - that most of us are trying to build. Senegambianamestudy (talk) 19:39, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Examining the original disagreement

Editors commenting here should read the original discussion that led to the RfC that Jytdog identifies as his reason to make the TBAN proposal. Danilo Two had suggested the removal of this paragraph in the BNY Mellon article because it was outdated, lacked context, and wasn't helpful to readers. Jytdog stated that it would be better to update the charts, so Danilo explained the challenges to doing this, which included a desire to avoid COPYVIO. It was a civil conversation, which could have used more voices—this is why Danilo opened the RfC. And when Jytdog found fault with the way he presented the RfC question, he agreed to adjust the wording. I must ask, is this behavior worthy of a TBAN? WWB Too (Talk · COI) 20:00, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

You are trying to cast this as a mere content dispute. The TBAN request is due to behavior issue. Jytdog (talk) 20:06, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

What is the behavior issue? Yes, Danilo Two did include his perspective in the first version of the RfC, and that was a mistake. When you objected, he changed the wording. He is clearly willing to take constructive feedback, and is unfailingly polite. So which part of WP:WHYBLOCK did he violate? WWB Too (Talk · COI) 20:14, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Persistently trying to turn WP articles into proxies for company websites, focused on their current status and messaging, and erasing history while doing that. That is not what we do here. The minimal requirement for paid editors to be members of the community is to follow the PAID policy and COI guideline. But like everybody else paid editors need to aim for the mission and follow the rest of the content policies and guidelines. I have now almost verbatim repeated myself. That is tedious to me and I am sure everyone else, and I have no more to say to you here. Jytdog (talk) 23:30, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry Jytdog, but that is simply false. Danilo suggested removing an iffy section, but that is not "erasing history". Furthermore, in several instances he suggested moving outdated information to the History section. It's just wrong to say he was only serving a PR purpose, and not trying to make it a more accurate and informative page. If this is your last comment, that's too bad, as we've been having a more constructive version of this conversation on your talk page. I am certain there is a solution here well short of topic-banning an editor whose edit requests you think are wrong. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 01:04, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

I understand that you disagree. I am uninterested in entertaining further debate with you about your employee and I will not further tolerate your misrepresentation and misframing what I have been saying as a content dispute. I suggest you stop doing that. Jytdog (talk) 23:19, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

"Pending review"

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Could someone enlighten me as to why my recent change to Chuckle Brothers ([1]) is deemed by the software to be subject to "pending review"? I'm assuming it's some technical glitch, though I don't know which technical board to go to to ask about it. Thanks. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 11:38, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

It was caused by a "pileup": an IP's edit needed confirmation, and this affected all succeeding edits. Should be fixed now. Favonian (talk) 11:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Does this usually happen after one edit that needs review? I'm sure I've edited after such edits before, without this occurring. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 12:04, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

AFAIK, yes. Favonian (talk) 12:10, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it must happen. The idea is that someone must approve the IP edit or take action such as revert, and this is why all subsequent edits are marked as not reviewed until the action has been taken.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:31, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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• That pending changes feature is a peach. EEng 06:22, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Review of UpsandDowns1234 block

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User:UpsandDowns1234 is requesting a community review of their block. The previous review was closed as "no consensus". The text of their appeal follows:

At this point, I truly understand what I absolutely did wrong that merited my block about a year ago. First, I completely obsessed about policy pages without taking into consideration whether it improves the encyclopedia, which is disruptive. Second, I abused talk pages (including my own talk page) and Twinkle for no apparent or good reason at all. Third, I see many places where I can improve on articles, particularly accuracy, vandalism, and images, such as the articles for musical.ly and Tik Tok (app). Fourth, I have abused my own userspace as a webhost, which violates the user page policy, and wastes time of RC patrollers who have to patrol each and every userpage edit (this is the reason why I requested to be blocked about a year ago in the first place). Fifth, I created pointless redirects that was the same problem on wikiHow and got me blocked there. Sixth, I created project and policy pages that did not line up with community guidelines, and was too vague in my edit summaries for any admin to interpret them as a good or bad edit (or set of edits). Seventh, I obsessed too much about the MediaWiki software, such as that extremely long discussion about changing the title of the main page and explaining why it would be technically impossible (also got me blocked from wikiHow). Finally, I see that whatever business I am doing on wikiHow does not affect my block over here, which at this point, for the next 6 months-1 year, I have to either shape up or shape out. I absolutely am sorry for this, understand the reasons for the block, and promise that this will never ever happen again. My incompetence was because I was attempting maintenance of Wikipedia without actually gaining experience on Wikipedia. My (not deleted) mainspace edits are <500, and if I were to narrow them down to not include the pointless template-adding games, they would probably be less that 100. And as Iridescent said, I have promised way too many times to not play games. This time, I actually mean it. Once again, I absolutely am sorry for whatever disruption I caused on Wikipedia, and hope to get my edit access restored soon. Ups and Downs (↕) 04:13, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Checkuser shows there is no evidence of sockpuppetry or block evasion on their current IP. Please indicate below whether you would support or oppose an unblock at this time. Yunshui ^雲_水 07:53, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

• Weak support but suggest the user is monitored for a while to ensure they truly have taken on board the issues raised. Happy to do this. Aiken D 08:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support unblock and a second chance. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:46, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support, in that the user does seem to recognise the wide-ranging issues exhibited, let's assume good faith and give them a chance to demonstrate improvement. Fish+Karate 08:55, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
• Sure TonyBallioni (talk) 11:21, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
• Leaning support, having effectively tanked U&D1234's previous SO appeal here. I would be interested to hear User:Iridescent's feelings, as they were very much involved with this editor—and the myriad issues that that involved—from the start. Leaning support in spite of hearing from them, though, as if IIRC, Iridescent did support that last appeal, which tbh was not half as convincing as this one. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 11:57, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Clarify: My slanty support would change to a regular, perpendicular one if so editing restrictions as discussed below were agreed to and implemented. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 15:14, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
• support, seems to have taken criticism on board and wants to learn to do better. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 11:32, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support The appeal clearly shows they now know better and needs a second chance to demonstrate that. –Ammarpad (talk) 18:07, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support per WP:ROPE. Nihlus 18:12, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

  Reaffirm support with the below conditions by Iridescent. Nihlus 16:13, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support if and only if U&D is willing to abide by some kind of explicit "no more fucking around" restriction; as U&D himself says in the above request, we've heard "this time, I won't goof around any more" from U&D far too often for it to have any credibility. I'd be inclined to formalize the conditions I proposed last time (You make no edits to Wikipedia policies and guidelines (if a policy prevents improvement of an article you can discuss your proposed changes somewhere else); No disruption of Wikipedia processes such as your drive-by nominations at WP:RFPP, and we decide what's disruptive not you; No experimentation on any page other than sandboxes; No creation of redirects, if you genuinely feel a redirect is necessary, you can suggest to somebody else that they create it; No screwing around with html to make your userpage or talkpage intentionally difficult to read; If anyone complains about anything you do, regardless of whether you feel the complaint is merited, you immediately stop whatever it is that caused the complaint.), but if that's too bureaucratic, "If anyone tells you to stop doing something, stop doing it immediately without argument, and if any admin feels you're trolling, timewasting or misusing Wikipedia as a webhost they can indefinitely block you without prior notice or discussion" would serve just as well. Also notifying Primefac and NeilN as the other two admins who had their time wasted trying to assume good faith of UpsandDowns1234 in the past. ‑ Iridescent 14:56, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

  I think your proposal could be simplied to [U&D] is restricted from editing any non-"talk" namespace other than the Article, User, and Draft spaces. Any complaints about user conduct or editing practices should be immediately stopped and self-reverted. Primefac (talk) 14:57, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

@Primefac: "Any complaints about user conduct or editing practices should be immediately stopped and self-reverted" means the complaints should be stopped and self-reverted. Presumably, you meant something more along the lines of "Any complaints about user conduct or editing practices should be responded to by immediately stopping and self-reverting"? AddWittyNameHere 02:39, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Sure! Primefac (talk) 02:42, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support as second chance.The user clearly understands and recognize his past mistakes and is willing to work towards rectifying the issue. Razer(talk) 09:41, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support once editing restriction is codified, as suggested by Iridescent and simplified by Primefac. Alex Shih (talk) 15:08, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support: Seems pretty sincere, let's give them another chance. Waggie (talk) 15:50, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
•  Administrator note There's a clear consensus to unban here, as well as a clear consensus for the condition of a formal and final warning against continued disruptive conduct of any kind, to be determined by the discretion of any administrator. For the sake of simplicity, the precise wording will be as follows: "UpsandDowns1234 is unbanned, but remains on a final warning status for disruption, broadly construed. Should any admin feel that they have caused or are causing any sort of "disruption" whatsoever, they may reblock for any period of time, or indefinitely, without further warning." The aforementioned details proposed above have all been made explicitly clear to fall within this warning, and it will be logged at WP:EDR under "final warnings". Swarm ♠ 15:50, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

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Login help needed for Textorus, continued

This is a continuation of a request for help I made a month ago, now archived: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive300#Login_help_needed,_please

I have been away but now am back, and am really hoping some kind soul will take pity on this old geezer and restore my access to my original account, user:Textorus. I have made a new account, but of course it lacks my 12 years of history and contribs, etc.

Many admins responded to my first request, and I appreciate that, but the consensus was that there was nothing they could do. Someone suggested I go ask for help at phabricator, but that was misguided: I did that yesterday and here is the response they gave me: https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:Uibpipy0i2ug8k2u&topic_showPostId=uid9wiuuvlzwowt8&fromnotif=1#flow-post-uid9wiuuvlzwowt8

So once again, I ask for my password on user:Textorus to be reset so I can get back to work making the Internet not suck, in my small way. I understand from the first discussion that I have no email address on file (I must have deleted the original when I got a new email years ago and somehow forgot to enter the new one); and that therefore, all the rules say I am screwed. I also do not know any other Wikipedians who can vouch for me personally.

However, from having worked 40 years before retirement in business and government with computer workstations, and frequently interacted with IT administrators, I do know that resetting a user password is a very simple thing, and in the world outside of WP is done all the time. I realize many delinquents and malefactors are also causing wikitrouble night and day, and I have no way of proving that I am not one of them - but guys, why would some hacker hoodlum want to impersonate a boring old guy like me and take over my boring old user account? When he could much more easily create a dozen clever, crafty new accounts on WP in the time I have taken to type this request? I ask you.

I am not a high-profile Wikipedian, but as a now-retired professional editor and educator I have for many years enjoyed clarifying, correcting, and sourcing wikiarticles, which is a nerdy but inexpensive hobby, and which does, I hope, contribute in small, unnoticed ways to the greater good.

So can someone please take a chance, WP:BRAR, and give an old man his wikidentity back? Thanks in advance for any help. Textorus Textorus2 (talk) 12:47, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

@Textorus2: there are no English Wikipedia positions that have the technical capability to reset your password. The only people that can do this are developers, and you need to file a phabricator ticket to request their assistance. The link that you were provided at mw:Topic:Uibpipy0i2ug8k2u is the link to phabricator. You can see what an example password rest request look like here: phab:T198536. If you convince the developers you are the person that should be in control of your account they may be able to reset your email address so you can generate a new password. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Xaosflux, but the link I was given is "to report a bug" - I have no bug to report, just a password reset request, which is the simplest thing in the world - my bank does it over the telephone, no photo ID or fingerprints needed. The second link you gave shows someone asking for a password reset, but I do not see how to get into that discussion board. I am old and retired from a long career, and my brain is too tired to decipher and burrow into all the technical complexity there. If no one has the time or patience to help me out, maybe it's just time I retired from Wikipedia too. Textorus Textorus2 (talk) 14:03, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

@Textorus2: WMF does not have telephone support, the intake system calls everything a "bug". Unlike a your bank, we don't know may private things to authenticate you (like "what is the amount of your last deposit, who did you write check number 3212 to, etc", which is why this is hard. The basic steps to open this "request" are below:

1. Go to this link
2. Fill our the form with what you want, include some links to discussions, etc.
3. Ensure there is someway to contact you privately (You can tell them to use the wikipedia email you registered with this account for example) ( You do not need to write this private information directly in to the ticket)
4. In the "Tags" section type in "Wikimedia-Site-requests" and "Trust-and-Safety"
5. Click "create new task".

Hope that helps. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:16, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

phab:T201612 was filled --Framawiki (please notify) (talk) 17:13, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Jonnycraig888

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User:Jonnycraig888 is a new account, just created two days ago, that's making a surprisingly large number of edits to random AfDs. I'm assuming this is just vandalism and I've blocked them for 24 hours to prevent further damage. Looking for additional admin eyes to take a look and validate my assumption before I indef them. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:24, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing. I'm seeing someone who created an article, the article was passed by AFC, then in main space immediately sent to AFD. They've made several edits to that AFD. They seem to have an interest in music generally and Australian music specifically as most of the other articles and AFDs they've touched have been in that topic area. I didn't do an in-depth look at all their contributions or even all the AFD contributions, but the ones I've looked at look like good faith edits. There are no warnings on their talkpage at all. What specifically are you seeing that causes you concern? ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 17:33, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

To me the contributions look like good faith attempts from a new user to participate in AfD. Given the contents of the comments I don't think this is a sockpuppet or other user with prior experience of AfD. Hut 8.5 17:50, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Jonnycraig888 created Draft:Cxloe which was declined then Nana222222 created Cxloe which was declined and moved over the draft - is the deleted content similar? Both users have participated at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kinder (band), for an article created by Nana222222, and at a few articles including deletion of a notability tag[2]. Whether it's sock puppetry or two people collaborating, it looks like an attempt to circumvent the review processes. Peter James (talk) 20:44, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

The sockpuppet investigation is at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Nana222222. Peter James (talk) 21:41, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

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AIV backlog

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Just a note that there are currently 32 open reports on AIV. Enterprisey (talk!) 06:29, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

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WP:DUCK check requested for a SPI

Could an uninvolved admin please look in on Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Iaaasi. The situation is a little complex: it appears that Romanian-and-proud (talk · contribs) may have been mistakenly identified as an Iaaasi sock a few years ago. It is my view (and the view of several other editors) that R&P has returned as Torpilorul (talk · contribs) given the editing patterns and views they've expressed. A checkuser run hasn't turned up a link between Torpilorul and Iaaasi, but the checkuser noted that "I accept that Torpilorul could be R&P". I'd be grateful if someone could investigate the behavioural evidence. Nick-D (talk) 08:49, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

I am involved, but agree with Nick-D that there is a fair amount of behavioural evidence for a link between the two. We had what could be described as a pro-WWII Romanian (and Holocaust-apologist) series of posts on WT:MILHIST recently by Torpilorul, and I have the same suspicions as Nick-D. It would be good to clear it up for the future. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:24, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

• @Nick-D: when you open a thread challenging an admin action it's customary to ping the admin whose action you're challenging (courtesy ping DeltaQuad). Other admins are welcome to have a look of course, but it's already several admins' opinion that the two accounts are probably operated by the same person and thus violating the multiple accounts policy, and so the new account would be blocked regardless of their connection to the SPI case. It's also my opinion that they're all the same person as the sockmaster. I don't really understand the forumshopping going on here. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:32, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Sorry for the protocol mess up. I'm not challenging DeltaQuad's admin action whatsoever: checkusers aren't expected to do WP:DUCK tests, and in her comments she alluded to this being helpful. I'm not intending to forumshop: I was concerned about the SPI being closed early due to what seems to be a procedural foul up in earlier SPIs. I'd be more than happy for the SPI to be re-closed if I've misunderstood the status here, and the check is unnecessary. Regards, Nick-D (talk) 04:52, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
    • FWIW, I’m not sure it matters much now. R&P hasn’t edited since 2016 and there is no active appeal. Torpilorul is blocked for reasons other than socking. I’m not a clerk, but as an admin who is fairly active at SPI, I can say that closing in this case is pretty normal: a behavioral determination wouldn’t change much and any future appeal by either account would bring with it new CU data and the behavioral evidence could be reviewed then. Simply from a practical standpoint right now we don’t need to make that judgement call. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:42, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

User interaction investigations & Interaction Timeline

Hello all,

Want to give an update about a new feature for the interaction timeline tool and talk about my observations when I’ve tested the tool on active cases on AN/I

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T197148

The interaction timeline tool will soon generate text output that can be shared in on wiki. This allows people who are preparing a report about user conflict or doing an user interaction investigation of a noticeboard report to add a link to the results with a brief summary of results. This new feature aims to enhance one of main purposes for the tool–to provide a neutral and complete chronological record of the interaction between two users. I'm interesting in learning about how this improves or harms discussions.

My experimentation will some live active AN/I cases shows that there will still be heavy lifting to do a thorough investigation on complex cases, but it improves the investigation by:

• eliminating only seeing one sided cherry picked diffs from one or both parties to the dispute
• giving a complete chronological record of the pages where interactions happen with a diff that can be expanded for further review of the interaction. In addition to showing the frequency of negative interactions, this could aid with understanding the scope of topic or interaction bans.
• calculating and displaying the amount of time between interactions in small red text,
• allowing you to change date ranges to see a longer view of interactions or narrower view restricted to a shorter timespan when a conflict heats up.

Lastly, I started a page on wiki that highlights the tools that can be used to investigate user interaction conflicts. Wikipedia:Tools/User interaction investigations. Time permitting, sometime later this week, I plan to add more details about approaches to investigating complex cases. I welcome review, improvement, and sharing with others if you think it is useful.

As always, I’m interested in learning other people's experiences using the tool. You can share either here in this discussion, by email, or on my talk page.

Cheers, SPoore (WMF), Trust & Safety, Community health initiative (talk) 18:01, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm not prepared to get into the weeds on this, but some experimentation suggests the new tool is useful only if (a) the set of pages in common is small AND (b) that set does not include a page such as ANI. Otherwise you get massively unwieldy output. An advantage of the old interaction tool is that you get a list of pages and minimum interaction times and can "zoom in" on those that looked interesting. Here we get one gigantic pile. Maybe if there was a way, once the initial output begins, to click-to-exclude a page, or click-to-temporarily-show-only this page, or things like that. The more I think about it the more I think starting with some kind of summary-by-page, followed by a selection to expand a subset of pages, might be best. EEng 18:36, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, User:EEng I appreciate you expanding your feedback to include a suggestion for improvement. :-) I see where you coming from. I've brought your idea to User:TBolliger (WMF) and the rest of the Anti-Harassment Tools team and we'll add it to our phabricator board to consider for the next phase of improvements to the tool. We are also considering a filter for namespace or pages. SPoore (WMF), Trust & Safety, Community health initiative (talk) 19:19, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

I didn't really mean to get into it, but you're drawing me in. Here's how I imagine this might be used. First you get a list of pages where both/all editors have edited, with some basic info like # of edits by each, min time between interacting edits, # of edits by each during the time they were both active on the page, stuff like that. You can select individual pages one at time to investigate -- you're looking for conflict, presumably -- and then after looking at a given page you either "keep" or don't keep it. After looking at various pages, you can then go to a presentation much like you have now, except only showing the keeps. Another idea might be to use coloring, or other visual cues, to show quickly which pages are which as you glance down the combined interaction display. There... that should keep you busy a while. Oh yes, one other thing... there needs to be a way to get a permalink for what you're seeing, so when you post to ANI or whathaveyou everyone can see exactly what you're seeing. EEng 19:32, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

@EEng: I love it, it's similar to what we're thinking for phab:T189850. I won't drag you into this further, thank you for your comments and for your time! — Trevor Bolliger, WMF Product Manager (t) 22:58, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

I checked out the phab thread, so just to say that if you can figure out interactions down to the thread level, that would clear out a lot of chaff. Similarly, I guess, you could ask whether 2 editors did or did not edit the same section of a given article. Those better be options the user can turn off, though. EEng 00:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

• It should be noted that the names are case sensitive. I typed in "sir joseph" and it worked, in that it selected a "sir joseph" but no results. I had to type "Sir Joseph" and that showed results. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:29, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
  • @Sir Joseph: This is a larger problem with good-ol' case-sensitive MediaWiki. The tool pulls from the Wikimedia user table, on which there is both User:Sir_Joseph (you) and User:Sir_joseph (an account with 0 edits.) We did make the input box on the Timeline ignore the case of the first character, as it is always capitalized. — Trevor Bolliger, WMF Product Manager (t) 17:47, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Acceptable username?

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Not an issue for Administrators' noticeboard. Referred elsewhere

 – at WP:RFC/N

• I have come across a user named User:대한민국 헌법 . Google Translate translates this from Korean as "Korean Constitution". Is this within the rules as a username? Special:Contributions/대한민국_헌법. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:41, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

No worse than this one. Who is an admin. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 06:48, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

the proper place for such a discussion is at WP:RFC/N, only after you’ve discussed it with the user in question. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:58, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

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My user page history,

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I was wondering if an admin can strike "Revision as of 17:35, 18 April 2017 by User:TalhaMusaddeq" on my Userpage, I really hate seeing that pornstar bit in my history. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 12:01, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

 Done. You're welcome. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 12:07, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

And I simultaneously did it a more old fashioned way so you wouldn’t ever be reminded of it again. Courcelles (talk) 12:09, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Cheers, thank you guys. Govvy (talk) 12:10, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

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Arbitration motion regarding BLP issues on British politics articles

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

The "Philip Cross topic banned" remedy in the BLP issues on British politics articles case is modified to read as follows:

Philip Cross (talk · contribs) is indefinitely topic banned from edits relating to post-1978 British politics, broadly construed. This restriction may be first appealed after six months have elapsed, and every six months thereafter. This sanction supersedes the community sanction applied in May 2018.

For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 20:02, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding BLP issues on British politics articles

WP:DRN, WP:DR, WP:ANI Advice Disconnect

At the dispute resolution noticeboard we sometimes have filers who submit disputes that are not suitable for DRN because they were advised at WP:ANI that their dispute is really a content dispute and should be taken to WP:DRN. It is then sometimes necessary for the DRN volunteers to close these case requests, which results in disillusioned new users, but we can only accept the sort of cases that we can accept. The proper advice should in general be instead to read the dispute resolution policy and use whatever content dispute resolution policy is appropriate, which may be further discussion at an article talk page, WP:DRN, a Request for Comments, or a specialized noticeboard.

To clarify, DRN is a lightweight mediation forum, taking disputes that can be typically resolved by compromise or mediation within one to three weeks. We only accept cases that have been the subject of talk page discussion, but the talk page discussion has been inconclusive. (Try to discuss on a talk page before coming to DRN.)

There are a few possible ways to deal with this disconnect. First, we could change the charter of DRN to make it a point of entry for all content disputes, or all disputes. I do not recommend that. It would be a drastic change in how Wikipedia does dispute resolution, with limited benefit, and would not be consistent with the current volunteers that we have at DRN. Second, DRN volunteers can be asked to provide more detailed guidance to editors who file cases that are not appropriate for DRN as to where to take them instead. Asking the volunteers to give appropriate follow-up advice does seem to be a reasonable step. I would suggest a third step. Sometimes the advice to go to DRN is given at ANI by admins, and sometimes by non-admins. I would ask that admins take the lead in advising editors at ANI to read the dispute resolution policy and follow a dispute resolution procedure, rather than in advising them to go to the dispute resolution noticeboard (which may or may not be the right place).

I will also comment that, too often, the comment that a dispute is a content dispute is half true and useless. Most disputes start as content disputes, but, if one user is disruptive or combative, it may not be feasible to refer the dispute to a content forum, because content dispute resolution only works if all the participants are civil. A conduct aspect to a dispute must be addressed before the underlying content dispute can be resolved. (Telling the parties in such a dispute to resolve the matter as a content dispute is unfair to the civil party and favors the uncivil party because, by ignoring the disruption, it permits the disruptive editor to engage in bullying, insults, innuendo, filibuster, or whatever.)

Can administrators try to remember to send content disputes to WP:DR rather than WP:DRN? Comments?

Robert McClenon (talk) 00:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

mass deleting edits of a banned editor

I have yesterday nuked a large number of pages created by a banned editor, basically per our banning policy, and because I feel that here WP:DENY applies (their contributed material is their trophy). Special:Nuke applies there (standard) deletion criterion 'G5', which I did not bother to change, nor do I know if I can. I can see that strictly spoken here 'G5' does not always apply.

I have undeleted pages where I felt that there were significant edits by others (excluding categorisations, tagging, etc.).

I am asking here for a second opinion: am I correct in deleting all page creations by a banned editor, regardless of the quality. Does G5 apply there, or do I have to delete them per WP:BMB/WP:DENY. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 06:12, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

As far as I know (not privy to the confidential behavioral evidence) the editor in this instance was banned for uploading copyvio images. G5 says to only delete content when it relates to the reason for the ban, so in a strict reading only images (and not articles) should have been nuked. Also, who cares about whether socks collect new-article trophies? Regular editors do that all the time; it's not problematic nor (except in extreme cases of automated bad stub creation) ban-worthy behavior. But I have no reason to doubt the identification of this editor as a sock, and while it's annoying that apparently-good new stubs got nuked I'm not going to argue for the re-creation of the ones that had no subsequently added content from other editors. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:25, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

G5 says to only delete content when it relates to the reason for the ban - this is not true. G5 says the edit must be a violation of the user's specific block or ban. If a user is blocked or banned, any and all content they create under a new account is a violation of their specific block or ban, and is subject to G5. The reason for the original block is irrelevant, they are violating it simply by editing. The specific-violation cause kicks in if the user is topic-banned or subject to editing restrictions, but otherwise still welcome on the site. In those cases, G5 would apply to new pages created on topics that fall under the ban (or violate their restrictions) but not to any of their other new content. Beetstra's deletions of both articles and images are correct here. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:33, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@David Eppstein: As I see now, strictly reading of G5 would here not apply, though I will argue that all of WP:BMB does apply (and I recall ArbCom having statements about that, where a restricted editor was adding and self-reverting in mainspace, then arguing on the talkpage to re-revert to have the material included 'if it was good' - blocks were applied for that behaviour). Regarding 'who cares about whether socks collect .. trophies' .. so there you have the exact paradox of WP:BMB that WP:DENY/WP:RBI are basically talking about, rooted in policy. Just to note, this editor has earlier asked for a non-en.wikipedia contest on article creation where all his articles were nuked as still counting for the contest.

I have absolutely NO problem with independent re-creation of any of the articles I deleted.

The behavioural evidence (99.9%) is all on-wiki (though some now deleted). I have asked a CU off-wiki to fill in the last 0.1%. Their edits are basically a dead give away per WP:DUCK. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 06:51, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

• I don't think quality is the issue here, carelessness is. You deleted several pages that had unambiguously been "significantly" edited by others, e.g. Leanne Redman, which David had declined a previous CSD on and substantially rewritten. You also restored blatant vandalism just because Slowking5 happened to be the one who reverted it. I understand the importance of enforcing blocks on sockpuppets, but doing so shouldn't be at the cost of (re)introducing bad edits, deleting the contributions of good faith editors, or overruling the decisions of other admins. Maybe in future do these manually, rather than using the 'Nuke' tool (in fact I'm surprised to learn that such an indiscriminate tool exists). – Joe (talk) 06:39, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Joe Roe: I was under the false impression that Special:Nuke only deleted pages that were only edited by said editor, my apologies for that misunderstanding (more work for me next time to evaluate all pages ..). I also agree on the one mistaken rollback ..

I disagree on the point that I overruled the decision of the other admin, I deleted for completely different reasons, per policy. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 06:51, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

• WP:BANREVERT is the relevant policy. They don't necessarily have to be reverted—use best judgement.—Bagumba (talk) 06:45, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

@Bagumba: "the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert" - and this is not ambigious. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 06:51, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I was only stating the relevant policy. Without having looked at the reverts/deletes, I have no opinion on your specific actions. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 06:56, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I understand, I did not want to give the impression that I understood differently. Note that you would need to know the history of the edits of this sock, not the just the reverts/deletes. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:07, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

this is a frequent dilemma--the oractical way of enforcing a ban is to deny the contributions, but if the subjects are important enough, this harms the encyclopedia. I would not have asked about Larssen, nor (presumably) David Epstein about Redman and Wang , had we not judged the individual awere so important in their fields that coverage was essential--and had we not been specialists in that particular subject area. And even so, I would probably not have asked about, Larssen has I not previous to the deletion worked significantly on the article, to the extent of an almost complete rewriting. When an article by a banned individual has been worked on by a responsible editor here, that editor is normally considered to have adopted the article adnd taken responsibility for it. Whatever we do about the sock's work, you can not remove the work of editors in good standing'work under G5. That's the problems with mass removal--they are indiscriminate and do not take account of circumstances. .It is normally considered that mass removals require specific prior authorization at ANI -- and, even so, in recent cases most of the articles subject to such mass removals have in practice not been deleted because established editors spoke up for them.

(but since the question was raised, I do want to say in all fairness that Beetstra's decision to delete an article I worked on was not overruling an admin decision. My working on it was an editorial action, not an admin one. Similarly for my declining the speedy: any editor, not just an admin , can decline a speedy). DGG ( talk ) 08:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

The oractical of Delphi

-EEng

What's "oractical"? EEng 19:55, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 08:39, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree with DGG's reading of the situation. Furthermore, since Slowking4 / Warren5th (is there a specific reason we're not mentioning him by name here?) was not actually sanctioned because of problematic edits in mainspace per se, deleting notable content from the encyclopedia seems counter-productive. One possible compromise would be to undelete the remainder of the articles, send them to AfD, and see what the community thinks on a case by case basis. My understanding of G5 is that it was used to sanction somebody who used sockpuppets to repeatedly create blatantly unsuitable pages, and was introduced as a device to save time - Iridescent can remember the specifics, I think. See here. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:18, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: Do you understand that this is an editor who has argued that they should be eligible for prizes in a contest for the work that they contributed after all that work was deleted (a step up from the general 'I win prizes for collaboration')? And again, WP:BMB "A number of banned editors have used "good editing" (such as anti-vandalism edits) tactically, to try and game the banning system, "prove" they cannot be banned, or force editors into the paradox of either allowing banned editing or removing good content." - are we arguing here that we should just leave good editing by banned editors, just block? Maybe we should then update that in the banning policy. I feel the cause is here more important than the 'crime'.

I did not mention the names, the discussion is more about the general conflict / paradox in my use of administrative tools, not about the block / socking / block evasion itself. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:46, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Is this prizes for an on-wiki contest (in which case tell him a) he's not having them and b) grow up) or somewhere else (in which case contact the organisers and explain why he shouldn't get anything)? In any case, that's a separate issue to the content that gets left behind. In ten years' time, everyone will have forgotten about the editor, but the article will still be around for people to read, if they want to. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:51, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, on-wiki contests. And that is exactly my point.

Note that, going through their socks, I see copyright issues from September 2017 .. going through the contributions of the last sock, I see article duplication, and cases bordering on plagiarism. I am sorry people, there are all types of problems noted in the history of this editor which are ongoing. I have undeleted a couple of articles now, but I would not be surprised that some of that material is blatant copyvio. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 10:22, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I have opened up a more specific question at WP:VPP#WP:BMB to suggest a different solution to wholesale deletion in specific cases. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:07, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

My 2p - I'm very firm with DENY and nuke on sight, but if another editor asks me to restore an article/category etc. then I happily do so. GiantSnowman 09:56, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Same here, with the caveat that I would need a good reason, not just a blanket request, and certainly not a blanket request to restore all of them. "Banned" = we don't want you here, not "we don't want you here, but if you edit anyway, we'll keep the edits", which basically gives banned editors a good reason to continue socking. Fram (talk) 15:05, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

• SPI clerk here. I normally reserve G5 deletions for pages very recently created by banned users where mass-creation is their MO, or where the pages are recreations of pages they've previously created, especially when they're obviously gaming create protection or regex salting. I also don't think I've ever used mass delete. Speedy deletion is for unambiguous cases only - if there's any doubt as to whether content is acceptable, deletion should be up to discussion. At least in edge cases, a deletion discussion sets up a rationale for WP:G4 deletion in the future. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:37, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I forgot my password

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Hello, I think I just forgot my password, need restoration. If needed ill create new account just in case I lose password Glorium (talk) 08:07, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Which account? Orientls (talk) 09:40, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

@Glorium: ^^^^ --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 16:16, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

If your account has email enabled then you can use that to reset your password. Hut 8.5 17:41, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

No need anymore I found my password — Preceding unsigned comment added by Glorium (talk • contribs) 2018-08-10T23:16:58 (UTC)

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Persistent sockpuppetry

We have had three sockpuppet investigations (re five accounts) at Talk:Israel over the last few days (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/יורם שורק). The sock keeps coming back, and has done so again today. The SPI process takes some time, so the sock seems happy to continue to open new accounts. Is there anything that can be done to block them completely, or do we need to resign ourselves to a long term game of Whac-A-Mole? Onceinawhile (talk) 14:58, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't think an RfC that has experienced this much verified disruption can have the weight of a consensus. Is it possible to protect the talk page so only extended-confirmed accounts can participate for a time? It might be best to scrap this one and start over. (This is also just a good idea to deter bad behavior in the future.) Seraphim System ^(talk) 20:01, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

(non-admin cmt) I think that both those moves would be very wise. Irondome (talk) 20:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Request to lift topic ban

I was topic banned on May 1,2018 for violating several wikipedia policies while editing a caste article. I was relatively new to wikipedia and was not familiar with the policies. I know that ignorance is not an excuse. I apologize for my rude behavior. Since then, I have been making good contributions in other areas without any complaints so far. I promise I will continue to abide by wiki rules and remain a good editor. I request to consider my appeal to lift the topic ban. I have appealed for a lift in the past but was turned down. I am requesting again. I am ready to address any concerns you have about me. Sharkslayer87 (talk) 21:16, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

• Isn't the standard to wait 6 months? that's November 1 by my calendar.  MPJ-DK  21:19, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

• Sharkslayer87, MPJ-DK is correct, the standard is to wait six months. And especially in your case, you should wait. Did you read these comments on your original ban appeal, which you posted a mere hour after the topic ban had been placed? Several admins + experienced users there stated specifically that a new appeal from you should not be entertained until a minimum of six months had passed. I agree with them. Bishonen | talk 16:15, 11 August 2018 (UTC).
• I, too, would recommend waiting, and using the six month period to demonstrate that you can build content responsibly in other areas. A lot of your activity at present is anti-vandalism, which is good, but does not provide us a basis with which to judge whether the topic ban is still necessary. 05:59, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/German war effort closed

An arbitration case regarding German war effort articles has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

1. For engaging in harassment of other users, LargelyRecyclable (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is indefinitely banned from the English Wikipedia under any account.
2. Cinderella157 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is topic banned from the history of Germany from 1932 to 1945, broadly construed. This topic ban may be appealed after six months have elapsed and every six months thereafter.
3. Auntieruth55 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is reminded that project coordinators have no special roles in a content dispute, and that featured articles are not immune to sourcing problems.
4. Editors are reminded that consensus-building is key to the purpose and development of Wikipedia. The most reliable sources should be used instead of questionable sourcing whenever possible, especially when dealing with sensitive topics. Long-term disagreement over local consensus in a topic area should be resolved through soliciting comments from the wider community, instead of being re-litigated persistently at the local level.
5. While certain specific user-conduct issues have been identified in this decision, for the most part the underlying issue is a content dispute as to how, for example, the military records of World War II-era German military officers can be presented to the same extent as military records of officers from other periods, while placing their records and actions in the appropriate overall historical context. For better or worse, the Arbitration Committee is neither authorized nor qualified to resolve this content dispute, beyond enforcing general precepts such as those requiring reliable sourcing, due weighting, and avoidance of personal attacks. Nor does Wikipedia have any other editorial body authorized to dictate precisely how the articles should read outside the ordinary editing process. Knowledgeable editors who have not previously been involved in these disputes are urged to participate in helping to resolve them. Further instances of uncollegial behavior in this topic-area will not be tolerated and, if this occurs, may result in this Committee's accepting a request for clarification and amendment to consider imposition of further remedies, including topic-bans or discretionary sanctions.

For the Arbitration Committee, --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 01:36, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/German war effort closed

Antifa page and the Department of Homeland Security

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The web is an intricate trail of IP addresses and I feel that the Department of Homeland Security should investigate the antifa page with Wikipedia authorities!

America has experienced election meddling with foreign actors (most recently in 2016) and it's not just Russia -- China is involved as well as the U.K. The simple matter is that anyone capable of editing a page on Wikipedia has the ability to shape the narrative about a subject by creating original criticism. This is of particular concern with pages, like antifa where some editors take a hardline response and attempt to silence others. They aim through attrition to intimidate others.

With regards to antifa, he United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS) declared the activities of antifa as “domestic terrorist violence” in 2017. https://www.newsweek.com/are-antifa-terrorists-658396

Members of antifa “wear black pants and sweatshirts, with either helmets or hoods over their heads, bandanas across their faces — and dark sunglasses, goggles or gas masks over their eyes. Many carry makeshift shields and flags, whose staffs can quickly become weapons. They call themselves “antifa,” short for anti-fascist, and they’re part of a loosely organized national network of anonymous anarchists.” Select editors would like to hide this fact.

I have met with resistance at every well documented citation: https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/09/03/antifa-berkeley-protest-trump-coulter/ https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/29/style/black-bloc-fashion.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/06/05/in-portland-images-of-knives-brass-knuckles-bricks-show-viciousness-of-protests/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ff42b5d7d84a

I am happy to speak with anyone regarding the concerns of our nation! SDSU-Prepper (talk) 06:04, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

• Also being discussed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Antifa (United States)--Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 06:19, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request to lift topic ban (Robertinventor)

I wish to get my indef topic ban in the Buddhism topic area lifted. The main reason given for the original topic ban was that my talk page posts were too long, and I did too many of them. A secondary reason was that I did too many minor edits after posting them. Several other points were mentioned, but those were given most weight in the discussion. All of these are easily addressed.

First note that I'm an editor in good standing, with no other sanctions against me. Also I am frequently involved in extensive conversations in other topic areas. My posts are sometimes technical and detailed, however, they are always to the point, intended to help improve wikipedia, and usually are appreciated by the other editors in the conversation. In the topic areas that interest me, often other participants in the discussion do long posts too, and I appreciate their long posts as much as they appreciate mine; this discussion is an example. I have never been taken to ANI over the length of my posts on any other topic.

However, I agree that my talk page habits did cause a major issue in the Buddhism debates. Occasionally they causes minor issues in other debates. I sometimes have found it hard to adjust to Wikipedia from other platforms because

• If you edit your post after posting it, this sends alerts to editors watching the talk page. and fills talk page histories with diffs for all your edits
• Other editors will see the whole of your long post when browsing a thread (on other platforms they see only the first few lines until they click more).

But I have a solution!

Sandbox solution

The main change since the t-ban is that I have got into the habit of composing replies in my sandbox if they seem likely to need to be edited after posting. I never thought of this way of using my sandbox until @Softlavender: suggested it during the t-ban appeal discussion (apparently someone mentioned it to me before, but I didn't notice).

• This completely solves the issue of minor edits filling talk page histories and sending multiple alerts to other editors. Sometimes I forget to use the sandbox, or don't think it is going to be necessary. When that happened recently, an editor posted: User:Robertinventor#Too many edits for a talk page post. In response, I immediately started using the sandbox for this discussion, which solved the issue raised in that comment.
• I have also been using the sandbox for long talk page posts. This gives me an opportunity to review them and shorten them using my User:Robertinventor/Work arounds for lengthy talk page comments. I can even leave a draft there and take a break and then come back and find a way of making it shorter.
• As for doing too many posts in a short period of time, if this ever arises again, I can deal with that by either taking wikibreaks, or slowing down the pace of conversation, and giving other editors lots of time to respond before returning to the conversation myself.

I have also added messages to my user space to encourage other editors to please draw my attention to the matter if I do any of these things.

• User:Robertinventor#Over lengthy talk page posts or too many posts
• User:Robertinventor#Too many posts
• User:Robertinventor#Too many edits for a talk page post? Just remind me to use the sandbox - thanks!

I have also just now added a reminder text message to my user page and talk page: REMINDER TO SELF - YOU ARE NOW ON WIKIPEDIA - USE SANDBOX TO COMPOSE YOUR COMMENTS IF THEY ARE LIKELY TO NEED EDITING AFTER POSTING

This should help prevent similar issues arising in the future.

Wikignoming and new editing interests

Although I only did wikignoming in this topic area in the past, I have developed new editing interests since the dispute. As a result I wish to edit some of the Buddhist biographies.

I also have a special interest in the modern movement for reintroduction of the full Bhikkhuni ordination for women to Buddhist traditions that have lost this, and may be able to help improve articles in this topic area.

I would also help fix broken links, and add extra cites and so on.

Most of these edits are likely to require little by way of conversation. At most, I expect a few comments back and forth.

This is one of the biographies I'd like to work on:

• Milarepa has multiple issues of sourcing and neutrality.
• Milarepa draft is my new draft of it uploaded to miraheze (a free community wiki). It fixes these issues, see diff.

It is based mainly on the translator's note by Andrew Quintman, a good WP:RS on this topic that is cited in the original article. It won the American Academy of Religion’s 2014 Award for Excellence in the Study of Religion in Textual Studies and the 2015 Heyman Prize for outstanding scholarship from Yale University.

Robert Walker (talk) 13:39, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Looking through your contributions, it appears that you're still posting long comments on article Talk pages over at Talk:Clathrate_gun_hypothesis#Update_needed_on_shallow_Arctic_methane_clathrates so it's not at all clear to me that you'd work with other editors in a concise way in the Buddhism topic area. Moreover, in the ANI where you were topic banned, you'd previously promised to reduce the amount you post and edit your posts and didn't carry out that promise. Unless you have diffs showing that you have actually been taking the steps you outline above, and have done so for at least six months, this reads to me as an empty set of promises.

Also, reading original ANI, it's clear to me that although your posting style was a major part of the reason you were topic banned, it wasn't the only reason: the topic ban came about because you had strong feelings about Buddhism and the way the articles had recently been changed. Your suggestions to fix this posting style do not address the other issues with sourcing, tagging, and accepting consensus that were raised there. Ca2james (talk) 01:58, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Previous editing restrictions and timeline, for context. While Robert is not under any other editing restrictions at this time, it should be noted that he had a previous topic ban in this area.

• From May 2016 to November 2016, Robert was under a six-month topic ban on pages related to the Four Noble Truths (a Buddhism-related subtopic). As far as I can see, once Robert understood how topic bans worked on Wikipedia he respected the ban without problems. This ban was of a set duration rather than indefinite, and lapsed when the time expired on 27 November 2016.
• A very cursory glance at Robert's contribution history suggests that he made a dozen or so edits on Talk:Four Noble Truths in December 2016, then stayed away from Four Noble Truths and other Buddhism-related edits entirely until early April 2017. (Please correct me if I've missed something.)
• Less than a month after resuming edits in the topic area, he was subjected to the current, indefinite, broader-than-the-original topic ban now under appeal, imposed in May 2017. That ban came with the stipulation that no appeal would be considered for at least six months. As far as I am aware, this is the first appeal; fifteen months have elapsed since the ban was imposed.

I don't offer a judgement either way on the appropriate outcome of the appeal. I do think that a previous topic ban in the area is relevant information for people evaluating the current appeal. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:52, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

===Response to Ca2james===

'Response to Ca2james @Ca2james:, I'm not sure of protocol here. I don't want to break the thread by an indented long comment, but you made many points for me to respond to. It seems best to do them as a new section.

First, on sourcing, the concluding statement just says

"A fair part of this thread relates to content and sourcing issues. While interesting, these aren't a matter for ANI."

So, I was not sanctioned on sourcing issues. But - in case it is needed, I expand on sourcing issues below:

Extended content

In any case, I never attempted to add new content of my own to the Buddhism topic area in any of those debates. The remarks about improper sourcing in the appeal debate refer to the methods of sourcing used by the main space editors up to 2014 on the articles I was trying to restore. They had used them for several years at the time of the rewrite to remove material sourced in that way. I was a wikignome (in this topic area) trying to restore material that I thought had been improperly deleted. To be as clear as possible: I recognize that the approach to WP:RS used up to 2014 by the editors of those articles is no longer regarded as acceptable in the Wikipedia Buddhism project today. Unless someone else re-opens the question and requests comments, I don't intend to return to this topic. And if I ever do - it will be with restraint and making sure my comments do not overwhelm the conversation, one per day or per week or some such. But it is unlikely that this topic comes up again in the near future. @Dorje108:, who was the main editor of several of those articles, is no longer active in the project and I think most of those who supported the old sourcing approach have either left or are inactive. The areas I plan to edit, of biographies like the biography of Milarepa, and of bhikkuni ordination, are far removed from any of the topics discussed in the articles that I tried to get restored. The edits are also minor ones. In the example I give of the Milarepa article my edits are to solve issues of neutrality and unsourced content, and I expect my edits to be non controversial. Most of my edits of wikipedia are.

(self collapsed - as optional section - as not what I as sanctioned for)

On long posts: The Clathrates debate you brought up is the only occasion since the topic ban itself when anyone has complained of walls of text. They only did that because one of the editors in the debate read through my talk page and found the topic ban. They assumed I was a problem editor because of this. They soon came to realize that they were not walls of text, as the conversation continued. See the last section Talk:Clathrate gun hypothesis#Some of the main points for attention. I have given a list of 11 points that need attention in the article. I asked the other editor who made the recent changes to discuss them. They did not. I asked them to supply a quote for a cite behind a paywall. They did not. I asked if they were okay with me making the proposed changes. They did not reply.

A third editor who was involved in the debate then said diff "I'll review and edit as there is time and interest, about all I can say. Follow Wiki rules and do as you will." So that is what I plan to do, but haven't had time to get back to the article since then. I think if you review the conversation you will find I behaved in a proper fashion there and complied with the Wikipedia guidelines on talk page activity.

The reason I do a fair bit of talk page activity is because if I encounter a conflict situation like this, I never edit war. It is rare for me to revert an edit apart from vandalism. Where possible I avoid the R of BRD and just do BD. In the clathrate debate after that editor's bold rewrite of the article, most editors would have done a R first then a D. I just went straight to D. It is slower, maybe, but I prefer that approach.

Use of the sandbox The concluding admin @Euryalus: only said this about the sandbox:

"There was discussion of WP:REDACT and the refactoring of talkpage posts, but on balance there was insufficient comment to establish consensus for a sanction. Robertinventor's offer to use the sandbox sounds like a good idea and will hopefully address the issue"

Sometimes long talk page posts are acceptable in wikipedia, as in the example I gave of a detailed discussion of an extremely complex article on microtonal music. It would severely limit our ability to work on such complex articles if comments were always required to be short. Robert Walker (talk) 03:52, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Votes on Request to lift topic ban (Robertinventor)

• Oppose lifting of topic ban The length of this "wall of text" request itself, and its failure to address the full range of issues that led to the topic ban, convince me that lifting the topic ban would not be beneficial to the encyclopedia and would be highly likely to result in additional problems for this editor. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:50, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose (Non-administrator comment). This wall of text request and the walls of text at Talk:Clathrate gun hypothesis show that this editor has not yet learned how to write succinctly, let alone to write succinctly in Buddhist topics. Moreover, this editor has also broken his topic ban several times although he self-reverted each time. The most recent topic ban violation was on August 6, [3] only about 30 mins after violating the ban on another article.[4] With such recent topic ban violations, I don't see how the topic ban could be lifted. Ca2james (talk) 21:42, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Robert is well-intentioned but unfortunately their style of discussion makes collaborative editing virtually impossible. I had observed this at the talk-pages of Karma four-years back (do take a glance at archives 3, 4, 5, 6) and had offered this advice as a non-participant in that discussion. It is obvious from this AN discussion itself that passage of time + that advice + similar advice from numerous other editors + topic ban, have not made much difference. Given that, I am opposed to easing of any editing restriction, and would sincerely ask Robertinventor to consider if wikipedia with its requirements to collaborate is a suitable venue for them to contribute their time and knowledge. Abecedare (talk) 23:03, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
• Weak Support there certainly isn't a convincing case that Robert has learned to express his views clearly and concisely. On the other hand, I'm not sure how a topic-ban regarding Buddhism solves that problem or helps the encyclopedia. The 2013 version of the Four Noble Truths article is very different from the current one; it's not unreasonable that an editor might prefer the earlier version but struggle to explain why. power~enwiki (π, ν) 23:42, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - the request itself already is WP:TLDR... And the reminder of the four noble truths "debate" alone is enough to make me feel unwell - literally. I really don't even want to imagine to go through that debate again. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:13, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

And he did it again:

I noticed this major rewrite in November 2014. The editor who did the rewrite had never edited the article or its related talk page

The real diff for the edit by Jonesey95 is this; what he is referring to is my series of edits in november 2014, which cleaned-up the contributions from Dorje108. It's not about WP:RS; it's about the way popular publications are being used as sources for presenting personal interpretations and understandings, while neglecting relevant scholarly sources, a point which obviously still has not dawned on Robert. It's totally irrelevant that I'd never edited that page before. What's relevant here is the repetition of Robert's WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. No lifting of the topic-ban for him, period. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:31, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Robertinventor is an intelligent and knowledgeable editor. Though the biggest problem might have been with the use of sources and writing wall texts and the problem with the wall of texts has not been carefully addressed by Robertinventor. I think it will help Robertinventor if he trims his appeal and name a couple of very good contributions he has made in these recent months. GenuineArt (talk) 05:27, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• @Robertinventor: Are you willing to answer these concerns? GenuineArt (talk) 15:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• While I sympathise with you on your apparent inability to write succinctly, your point and block of texts here further convince me that the topic ban is still necessary and should even be extended to unban requests for your own benefit. There's whole of editing world beyond Buddhism topic, you should explore that as neither your screed address the main problems identified nor your contributions to other areas demonstrate so, including this very request. –Ammarpad (talk) 06:14, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. All this request shows is that the problem has not gone away. Robertinventor is still convinced he is right and determined to change Wikipedia content to reflect that, and to argue ad nauseam until people die of boredom or walk away in frustration. That was the problem in the first place. [5] and [6], both less than a week ago, are unambiguous violations of the ban and would have resulted in a block had he not self-reverted. Guy (Help!) 07:00, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Thank you for pointing out that. Lack of scrutiny I suppose. GenuineArt (talk) 14:20, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Discussion and request for advice if you vote Oppose, Thanks!

{{ping|Cullen}}@Cullen328: I wish to be a better editor. Please tell me, what have I failed to address? Also, 'what was unnecessary or verbose? Incidentally in case it is unclear - the section on the sourcing is one I collapsed myself - as an optional section because Ca2james raised it - though it was specifically excluded by @Euryalus: as not what I was sanctioned for.

I have done everything within my ability to satisfy those two somewhat conflicting requirements, to give a short reply, yet to answer everything in enough detail for admins to assess it accurately. I spent several days working on the orignal appeal off-wiki (because of the t-ban). From the time stamps in my sandbox I spent 47 minutes working on my reply to @Ca2james:, mainly to shorten it, and copy editing for clarity. I have spent several hours on this response working on it from time to time to try to shorten it. There is no lack of good will and intent to benefit Wikipedia here. What is missing is mainly knowing what it is you require of me. I would appreciate it if any of you who vote Oppose would give a little time to advise me in this section about how to move forward in my talk page editing practices, or anything else, for the next appeal, thanks! Robert Walker (talk) 05:47, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Robertinventor, you need to learn how to be succinct, and you need to abandon your POV pushing on topics related to Buddhism. You have done neither. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:24, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

By the way, I am Cullen328, not Cullen. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:24, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

As a stylistic note, it is unnecessary, distracting, and disruptive to create a new section header for each of your own comments. Trust other Wikipedia editors to be able to follow a threaded discussion. More generally, one of the hardest things to do on Wikipedia is to accept that sometimes someone disagrees with your assessment of a situation. The impulse to think If I just explain it to them longer and harder, they'll come around! is hard to resist, and we all fall prey to it from time to time—but you're not doing a good job of demonstrating you can pick and choose your hills to die on, and you're continuing to hurt your case in the process. You've now broken this appeal up across a sufficient number of subheadings that it's not even entirely obvious where an editor endorsing your appeal should post their comments. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:06, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

@TenOfAllTrades: Oh sorry to hear that. So the issue is that in my response to @Ca2james: I expanded on things I already said in the original t-ban appeal and I should have just let the original statements stand "as is"? That is useful feedback, thanks. Moving forwards I can't fix it now per WP:REDACT. However, I think it is okay to remove the "response to Ca2james" heading to convert it back to a threaded discussion, if I do it with strikeout rather than just edit it away, and add a new "Appeal votes" heading with underline, to make the organization clearer. That may help. As for this new new section, it is because I didn't want to comment directly on a support or oppose vote, and I think a discussion section is normal enough here? Robert Walker (talk) 13:49, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

@Cullen328: - sorry for getting the ping wrong. I have edited it to fix it. It seems I have to answer this to get the t-ban lifted. So, please note that the topics I suggested are as far removed as could be from the topics that lead to the original discussions in the vast topic area of Buddhism. Also, I am an editor in good standing in Wikipedia, for instance I am the main editor of the Planetary protection article, and wrote about half of its content, also the main editor of Interplanetary contamination and this is a controversial area with many WP:POVs. I was not pushing some eccentric view of Buddhism of my own, but trying to restore material based on the previous consensus on how to present articles on Buddhism in the topic area up to 2014. I recognize that this consensus has changed and have moved on. I am involved in editing in a WP:NPOV and WP:RS way in many topic areas in wikipedia and it shouldn't be a problem to do the same in the suggested topic areas too. I can prove this by my actions if you lift the topic ban. Details collapsed again as it is not what I was sanctioned for:

Extended content

The issue of whether or not the current articles on central topics in Buddhism are WP:POV was based on a change in view on what counts as a WP:RS in 2014 in the topic area that came to ahead in this RfC. I got involved as someone who had only done wikignoming in this area who had Karma in Buddhism on my watchlist. I noticed this major rewrite in November 2014. The editor who did the rewrite had never edited the article or its related talk page and this was the status of the talk page when the rewrite began. It was one of the earliest articles on Buddhism, written in 2006 and as you can see from the talk page discussions at the time, it was regarded as stable, NPOV and well sourced by all the editors who commented there up to 2014, and this, and similar material in three other articles is what the discussion was about; never about work of my own that I wished to add. This seems to be the main point you wish to make so I thought I should answer it in full, but do bear in mind that I was not sanctioned for this. I can answer on short comments separately.

Robert Walker (talk) 14:19, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I am preparing a reply, more soon Robert Walker (talk) 17:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Site ban proposal for User:NadirAli

Last month,[7] NadirAli's mass sockpuppetry was discovered. Consequently, Ivanvector blocked NadirAli but only for 3 months contrary to the actual standards for such violations.

After I objected the duration,[8] Ivanvector started an ARCA clarification request.[9] The outcome of the request was that NadirAli should be "treated like we'd treat anyone else with a repeated history of sockpuppetry".[10] I proposed siteban by motion, to which Worm That Turned responded, "you make a strong argument for a site ban... If you still strongly feel that the site ban should be put in place, why not suggest it at AN with your explanation. There's no reason that the community cannot pass a ban based on past behaviour."[11] No arbitrators disagreed with that.

ARCA request has been archived but the outcome is still pending. Some significant points regarding the misconduct are as follow:

• NadirAli was evading his siteban before he was unbanned.[12]
• After getting unblocked he abused IPs and created Boxman88 (talk · contribs)[13] to evade the Arbcom topic ban. The topic ban was later overturned.
• He was blocked indefinitely for copyright violation.[14]
• He was topic banned from uploading any images.[15]
• He was blocked indefinitely for violating that topic ban.[16]
• Violated his ban on image uploading by creating a new sock, Posuydon (talk · contribs).[17]
• Indefinitely topic banned from India-Pakistan conflict.[18]
• Violated topic ban on India-Pakistan conflict last month,[19] however, he denied any topic ban violation,[20] just like he used to deny copyright violations.[21]

It can be safely said that NadirAli is the most disruptive editor in the South Asia topic area. Had the sockpuppetry been discovered early, the damage that his actions have done to the project could have been avoided. In these twelve years, NadirAli has engaged in a very large degree of disruption and displayed clear inability to act collegially, and this was on display even in his last edit. A siteban is probably overdue for someone who is currently topic banned from several areas for an indefinite period and has been socking this rigorously for such a long period. --RaviC (talk) 21:44, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support. When you're engaged in long-term sockpuppetry for the purposes of disruption and ban-evasion, and when you're willing to deny something that can be proven against you, you simply can't be trusted one bit. Apparently I don't understand the new rule, because I would have imagined that he qualified for automatic siteban. Nyttend (talk) 03:17, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

• PS, note that NadirAli has three indefinite blocks in his main account's history. Some of us have gotten multiple non-problematic indefs, due to mistakes or testing or rogue admins (I have one mistake and two testing; Jimbo Wales has one mistake, two rogue admin, and two I-don't-know-what), but all of NadirAli's appear to be deserved. It's rare for an active editor to have more than one, and truly exceptional for an active editor with three indefs to get a deserved definite block for violating an Arbcom injunction. I'm thankful that Ivanvector is willing to be gracious, but I don't think it's the wisest choice. Nyttend (talk) 04:06, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support - Overall net negative. Sdmarathe (talk) 04:51, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support Community ban. His trolling (I have no better word) [22] has been just out of hands. Orientls (talk) 10:42, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Orientls, how about you not call it "trolling" at all? The comment is a bit verbose (" judged by the fact that your opinion is a minority view as per these sources"), but I don't see what else is wrong with it. Drmies (talk) 14:34, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
    • He was misrepresenting the author who said Pakistan is not a regional power to be claiming that he says Pakistan is a regional power. As well as "all" provided sources say Pakistan is a regional power, when they didn't. Orientls (talk) 14:39, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose and reject, the user is already sanctioned and serving out a block as methodically prescribed in this and previous such cases. Sanctions are designed to be preventative, not punitive. The filer has presented no tangible argument why the already-existing sanction needs to be replaced. I have known NadirAli for a few years, and his contributions to Pakistan articles have generally been thoughtful, constructive, and overall positive. Right up until his block (which was both sad, unnecessary, and a serious lack of acumen on his part), his behaviour was cooperative, normal, and not something that would qualify as sabotaging or disrupting the project en masse. The two (the filer and NadirAli) and others here undoubtedly have had past beef, hence the reason why I would read between the lines and take things with a pinch of salt IMO. Also waiting for comments from Ivanvector, who obviously would've had good reasons of his own to extend the block for 3 months rather than the usual line of action; he would be in a better position to explain why that was decided. Thanks, Mar4d (talk) 10:54, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Have you even read what has been already said above? Arbcom has already clarified to Ivanvector that NadirAli's sock puppetry should be dealt like "anyone else with a repeated history of sockpuppetry", i.e. indef block or a indef ban. Orientls (talk) 11:14, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Like I said, the line of action for such cases is to enforce a block, which I'm already seeing. The user is blocked. The enforcing admin would've had reasons to determine why this length was appropriate. Mar4d (talk) 11:25, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Ivanvector certainly had his explanation in ARCA and Arbcom has clarified the misunderstanding. I can just hope that he would agree with what we went over at ARCA. Furthermore Mar4d, you may not know, but NadirAli has edit-warred with you as well [23][24] by evading his ban with IPs. Interestingly, this is the same article where he was caught socking last month.[25] --RaviC (talk) 11:33, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support WP:CBAN. Should have been done a while back. Agree with Nyttend that NadirAli got away with a number of violations for which he deserved an indefinite block. When it comes to disruptive editing, NadirAli has done it all - Sock puppetry , Edit warring , factional editing, misrepresentation of sources, and the list goes on. His presence in the ARBIPA area is what can be defined as long term disruptive editing with having the dubious distinction of being banned in first and only Arbcom case concerning this area. Looking at the most recent edit of NadirAli, we get the idea that his motive is further disruption. I think as a community we have wasted enough time on him and he has been given enough rope, hundreds of chances over a decade. It is time to take a binding decision on this matter. Razer(talk) 11:45, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support - As per Nyttend. NadirAli's editing is mostly shady and the non-shady part is mostly worthless. I don't see why the community needs to keep wasting its time on this editor. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:58, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Will you elaborate what you mean by "worthless". I saw his contributions over the years, and before the block occurred, and they were mostly positive in terms of content creation and expansion. No one is free from mistakes, including you. I disagree with your unnecessary aspersion. Mar4d (talk) 14:30, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support - The limited blocks and bans had been tried enough number of times. The Arb case should have been the final whistle for Nadir to stop such activity. The Kind admins like Ivan have already given the user enough WP:Rope to improve but by multiple violations as pointed above the user himself has decided to hang himself. The assumption that this editor will improve his behavior to avoid the ban would have been valid for earlier cases, Nadir by choosing to edit in conflict with the bans has already made the good faith assumption void. Proxy editors and the handlers need to be sent a strong message that indulging in such activity will not get any benefits and will only lead to strong administrative actions. --DBigXray 14:50, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support--The length of the rope, provided thus far, was not meant to approach infinity.....Thanks for your services, Good bye.∯WBG^converse 15:09, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support - Long overdue. D4iNa4 (talk) 17:20, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support this editor has a history of getting indefinitely blocked for many different kinds of disruptive editing, only to be unblocked with a topic ban, editing restriction or "last" chance. People like that should be shown the door. A three month block is very generous for socking by an experienced editor, especially one who has been ordered not to use multiple accounts by ArbCom. Hut 8.5 17:27, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support. It's an unfortunate fact that nationalist disputes in South Asia bring out the worst in many of our otherwise capable editors. Nadir Ali has at various points demonstrated that he has the ability to edit constructively, but has chosen not to make use of it. I recommended a t-ban for him a few months ago, but that was before evidence of further sockpuppetry was brought forward. His edits have been a net negative, and this ban is necessary. Vanamonde (talk) 17:50, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support: Nadir Ali definitely was a disruptive editor in both South Asia and science fiction subjects. There was an ANI against him last year,[26] and thus, we can't say that he didn't have enough chances since he actually received far too many. --1990'sguy (talk) 12:57, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - I have reason to believe that this request is not in good faith, but yet another example of the factionalized editing identified in the AE topic ban thread from a few months ago in which many of the previous commenters here were named and (temporarily) topic-banned. I should have noted more clearly at the time, but I have doubts that the accounts named in the most recent of the SPI filings against NadirAli were actually NadirAli's accounts, versus a sophisticated attempt at joejobbing - the checkuser result was inconclusive, and the two accounts are blocked for being sockpuppets of each other, not for being sockpuppets of NadirAli. Of course, NadirAli is hardly an innocent party in this ongoing dispute as evidenced by his long block log, including several indefinite blocks as Nyttend noted, but note also that indef != permanent, and all of those blocks served their purpose and were eventually replaced with appropriate limiting sanctions, which NadirAli has largely abided by since appealing to BASC in 2014. He's slipped up a couple times, but who hasn't in this group? It's a literal disaster, none of these editors don't have notations in their block log and/or their names repeatedly mentioned at AE or the various admin boards. The recent SPI hinged on IP edits from a huge (/11) subnet in Brampton, Ontario, a large Canadian city with a very significant Pakistani population, most of which were more than a year old at the time of the report. NadirAli is only currently blocked because of what appears to have been an oversight that his Arbcom topic ban was rescinded but his parallel no-logged-out-editing restriction was not rescinded at the same time (why I asked about it at ARCA), and had that restriction not been in place, I would not have blocked him but treated the situation as time served with a warning. It's only because that restriction remained in place, and admins do not have latitude to admin in conflict with Arbcom, that he is blocked at all. Sitebanning him for that is an incredible overreach. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:13, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you but that was unnecessary. NadirAli is the only serial sock puppeteer here. In place of righting great wrongs why don't you just try following what Arbcom told you after you specifically asked them. You are acting like an apologist. You are degrading your own credibility by encouraging his disruption. Orientls (talk) 14:31, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
    • Orientls It's one thing to argue that IvanVector is wrong; it's quite another to suggest that by exercising due diligence, he is an apologist for sockpuppetry. This is precisely the sort of us-vs-them nonsense that earned nine others topic-bans along with Nadir Ali, and I suggest you refrain from attacking anyone else's motives. Vanamonde (talk) 17:24, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
      • You are right that I need to use better words. My comments were directed on Ivanvector who is exactly attacking others motives and derailing this thread by making vague claims about others who are nowhere near the disruption of NadirAli. Not to ignore the apparent falsification of the sockpuppetry about NadiAli. Orientls (talk) 11:19, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
        • Doubling down by accusing Ivanvector of lying isn't exactly a great idea either. Black Kite (talk) 11:33, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
          • He claims that NadirAli didn't deserved block for sockpuppetry even after having CU confirmed the intentional logged out editing and also found connection with two socks abused for evading sanctions. "3 months block" for long term socking and putting the blame of someone's disruption onto others is absolutely a bad idea. Orientls (talk) 11:54, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
            • Can you provide evidence for where a CU 'found connection with two socks abused for evading sanctions'. Because Ivanvector seems to be correct that in the case of Boxman88 and Posuydon, the evidence was unclear. "The checkuser data for Boxman88 is extremely limited and doesn't provide a direct connection to NadirAli. However there are some other things to consider. There are some technical similarities which makes it possible". Note that I had no intention to take part in this discussion but happened to notice this diversion. Your comments cause me to look into the case and am I am likely to be !voting oppose unless you can provide evidence for your claims because it's looking to me like IvanVector is correct. Nil Einne (talk)
              • @Nil Einne: CU said "the CU result between the two accounts is somewhere between possible and inconclusive".[27] But Ivanvector misrepresented that as "the checkuser result was inconclusive". Ivanvector was also aware of that discussion. Not to forget WP:DUCK evidence floating in entire SPI. Orientls (talk) 12:59, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
                • Thank you for confirming my thoughts. Ivanvector's summary is far more accurate than your highly misleading claim "found connection with two socks abused for evading sanctions" since no such connection was found. Nil Einne (talk) 14:19, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
                • Do you really see no difference between "possible and inconclusive" and "inconclusive", what about the WP:DUCK evidence? NadirAli was evading CU, but shared same behavior. That is what it is all about. Orientls (talk) 14:39, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per the reasons given by Ivanvector. Nadir's past policy violations resulted in sanctions being placed and time served. Those violations can't be held up against him. We should be viewing Nadir's current conduct, which in my opinion is productive and a net positive. Son of Kolachi (talk) 18:46, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per IvanVector. He's quite right - a siteban is a massive overreach here, considering the behaviour of other actors in this mess of an editing area. Black Kite (talk) 18:58, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Can you name anyone else who has been sitebanned and indeffed multiple times after coming off from a siteban? Except NadirAli obviously. How can we afford to have an editor who is editing for 12 years and still dont know what is a topic ban violation? Accesscrawl (talk) 03:00, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose I believe he has been an extremely concerned constructive editor who has been working to build a WP:NPOV encyclopedia. His contributions to the platform are such that the encyclopedia would see a great loss in his absence. I see nothing that warrants a site ban. I don't want to see it not do I think it is proportionate.KA$HMIR (talk) 00:13, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• And you logged in after 35 days for making your first edit in this noticeboard.[28] Why? Accesscrawl (talk) 03:00, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose I agree with Ivanvector and other editors opposing this unnecessary site ban. Sanctions are supposed to be preventive and not punitive. NadirAli has served time for his past violations and currently under a ban and according to Ivanvector, no current sockpuppetry allegations were proven. We should not be extending a ban without a solid recent violation. It will be definitely a massive overreach as Ivanvector has rightly put it. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 01:12, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support Competence is required and NadirAli has none. Agree with Kautilya3 that NadirAli's edits were either shady or simply useless. According to the CheckUser: "The first obvious thing to say is that User:NadirAli has clearly been editing while logged out. This is to an extent you couldn't describe as accidental, and includes subjects such as the Kashmir dispute along with the Star Wars stuff.... There is also extensive logged-out editing from this set, which again includes Pakistan-India along with the Star Wars stuff."[29] This is a clear abuse and deception in addition to socking with two accounts for evading the topic bans after being blocked for violating them. Siteban after handing out multiple topic bans to a previously sitebanned user was itself unbelievable. Siteban looks like a delayed formality now. Accesscrawl (talk) 03:00, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Comment Five of the above users in support were very recently defending a blocked sockpuppet, who caused a lot of disruption. Many are certainly not here for charity. The vast majority of the above have also been involved in content disputes over the past 12 months. In my eyes, the credibility of this proposal and the intentions of the filer can't be taken seriously. NadirAli did some commendable work on content creation, and has been doing so for several years. Sure, he slipped up, but he got sanctioned for it and remained cooperative. I'm seeing nothing which would warrant replacing his existing sanctions with a punitive ban. This is an extremely weak case and not in good faith, as admin Ivanvector pointed out. Mar4d (talk) 10:28, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
  • @Mar4d:-Well, I'm one of those five users and you might wish to go through this thread.I defended him precisely because the SPI investigation failed to satisfy me and that has got nothing to do with your snide generalized personal attack, (at your second line).∯WBG^converse 12:45, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support due to abuse of multiple accounts to evade scrutiny and edit in defiance of his restriction, even after a lengthy block. This is someone who does not respect the restriction or our policies. Guy (Help!) 12:13, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per Ivanvector. I may change my mind if Orientls is able to provide evidence for their claim as I mentioned above. Nil Einne (talk) 12:43, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per Nil Einne. Clearer evidence needed. Agathoclea (talk) 13:07, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
  • @Agathoclea and Nil Einne: Do you need evidence of NadirAli's confirmed "extensive logged-out editing"[30] in violation of Arbcom's restriction that he can't "edit from any Wikipedia account other than "Nadirali", nor edit anonymously,"[31] or do you need evidence for Ivanvector's own words that NadirAli "has evidently created sockpuppet accounts"[32]? NadirAli's socks quack loud,(example 1: [33][34], example 2:[35][36][37], example 3:[38][39]) because they were operated by himself. Ivanvector himself tagged the accounts as suspected socks of NadirAli.[40][41] Evidence is already here. Lorstaking (talk) 13:48, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
    • I've looked at the evidence and agree with Ivanvector. The fact that other editors like Orientls make such misleading claims and then provide no explanation when called out for it really tells me all I need to know about this case anyway. Note that my specific point was that Orientls made a highly misleading claim. I don't care to get into a dispute over the evidence for other stuff. Neither Orientls nor you have provided any evidence for the claim "CU confirmed the intentional logged out editing and also found connection with two socks abused for evading sanctions" as that was about the CU finding based on CU evidence not any behavioral evidence. If editor A says I am editor B and editor B says I am editor A and they edit all the same articles with the exact same edits, that doesn't mean it's okay to claim CU found a connection with two socks when they did not. P.S. To be clear, I'm not saying most people supporting the tban are doing it for the wrong reasons simply that there are clear problems with at least one of the supporters which gives me great concern when combined with what I've seen of the evidence. Nil Einne (talk) 14:31, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
      • CU is not a magic pixie dust. NadirAli clearly attempted to evade CU but totally failed at it. Orientls (talk) 14:39, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
        • That sort of thing is possible in principle, but it seems not to have happened here. Above, you are claiming that the editor trolled by misrepresenting something. That is exactly what you're doing here, except that in this case it's plain to see. You seem to turn "between possible and inconclusive" into "confirmed", attacking Ivanvector in the process (as noted by Nil Einne, Black Kite, Vanamonde93), which is silly. "Between possible and inconclusive" is, for SPI and other purposes, basically "inconclusive". No one should block or decide on bans or whatever based on such CU evidence, and I hope no one does; it's not even "possilikely", which already demands admins look for other evidence to help base a decision on. So yeah, CU is not magic pixie dust--and yet you take the CU results as if they are, which is just completely wrong. So whatever may be wrong with the editor's contributions, you simply cannot base anything on those CU results. But hey, what do people like Vanamonde and Ivanvector and me know about CU and adminning, right? Drmies (talk) 15:43, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
          • Thank you Drmies for clarifying that. Orientls (talk) 16:40, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Nyttend sums it up perfectly: When you're engaged in long-term sockpuppetry for the purposes of disruption and ban-evasion, and when you're willing to deny something that can be proven against you, you simply can't be trusted one bit. It should also be noted that issues are not limited to just deceptive sock puppetry and time has shown that this user is unable to reform himself. MBlaze Lightning ^talk 14:14, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure where the claim of denial is coming from, I have not seen it. Here are some of the user's last edits [42] [43] [44] where he is acknowledging his sanction before the block and SPI closure. He had no other edits prior to these relating to his block. I certainly haven't seen any denial, unlike this case whom several above defended. This is misleading in my view. Mar4d (talk) 15:25, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Lean oppose. As the checkuser who checked the SPI, I think I'm entitled to say that I'm satisfied with Ivanvector's actions and drawing the line there. I think I'll also comment a bit more on the SPI. The SPI is stuffed full of IP addresses - many were added after I commented at the SPI - some are from over 7 or 8 years ago - most are from years ago - some of which are credibly disputed - and none of which were recently (if at all) confirmed by checkuser. Most of it is distinctly historical. What I've seen of recent activity, from my privileged position, in my view does not warrant an indefinite ban. For the record, I am sure about the logged-out editing (which has not been disclosed in detail anywhere), and "somewhere between possible and inconclusive" is not a strong proof. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 14:26, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks. Though extensive logged out editing is itself enough of the evidence of sock puppetry in addition to further disruption. Orientls (talk) 14:39, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

You've again misrepresented the checkuser's comments: zzuuzz said "I am sure about the logged-out editing" but did not say "extensive", and confirmation (for all intents and purposes) of logged-out editing, a violation of an Arbcom sanction, is the entire rationale for NadirAli's current block, not any "further disruption" as you seem insistent on describing edits nearly a decade old. Your repeated misrepresentation of facts from the sockpuppet investigation is one of the reasons why I don't think you're here in the spirit of what's best for the encyclopedia at all, but rather just trying to pick off your opponents by any means necessary. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:30, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

He said "extensive"[45] on the SPI, to which I was referring. NadirAli was the one picking up fight by filing bogus AREs[46][47] against me by misrepresenting my comments and supporting a suspicious account,[48] which was deemed to be a sock of an indeffed user who's edits have been frequently restored by NadirAli per the SPI.[49] For all that disruption I am supporting the siteban so that we will never have to waste anymore time on him. Is that clearer now? Orientls (talk) 16:40, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

This 'suspicious account' in question is not blocked. Can you be more clear what you mean by "deemed to be a sock"? Thanks, Mar4d (talk) 16:55, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Oh, please. This group of editors has no business at all calling out frivolous use of admin noticeboards, not one editor on either side of WP:ARBIPA. On that very page you linked to (twice) we have four incredibly obviously retaliatory enforcement requests, all from seemingly random uninvolved accounts, all accusing some opponent editor of being a sockpuppet of some other editor. The first supposed "bogus ARE" you link to is one filed against NadirAli, in which he makes just as convincing a case for you being a sockpuppet as anyone has made for him, and the second is just making his observation formal. Shall we indefinitely block you based on these flimsy reports?

• When I said in the mass-topic-ban ARE thread from those few months ago that "these editors have turned this subject away from collaboration and have made it their own personal battleground, and at this point the only way we're going to come back from that is to remove them from the topic" this is exactly what I'm referring to. I've become convinced in the months since that the lot of them should just be indefinitely banned for even after all that still continuing to perpetuate this ridiculous feud. They're not here to build an encyclopedia, they're just here to push their point of view and to fight with anyone who isn't on "their side", and to harass their opponents with "bogus" reports like this one and the many ridiculous reports at SPI and ARE this year. That's all that this entire proposal is. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:21, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support It is interesting that NadirAli had two indefinite blocks since vacation of siteban for copyrights issues. That is something an editor who is editing for a decade would better know about but that's completely missing in the case of NadirAli. There is no denial that sock-puppetry for evading scrutiny and editing in defiance of topic bans was continuously carried out. The recent topic ban violations and zero acknowledgement of problems with own conduct makes siteban as the only suitable option. GenuineArt (talk) 15:06, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Per my comment to MBlaze Lightning, the "zero acknowledgement" comment is not accurate. Here are the user's most recent edits, and the only one which relate to his block. He is clearly acknowledging his sanction. [50] [51] [52]. He definitely has not denied it anywhere. Mar4d (talk) 15:30, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support - He was sitebanned before for same behavior. In this case the ban is clearly long overdue because he is frequently violating copyrights, attacks on ethnicity[53][54] even after warning,[55] filing spurious reports, breaching topic bans, exhibiting inability to contribute constructively, and engaging in each of these violations using socks for over so many years. Lorstaking (talk) 16:19, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support Because of the long list of sanctions and horrible block log. There seems to be a lack of productive editing and continued engagement in battle ground mentality even after being sitebanned for it earlier. The sock puppetry (including logged out editing) was probably last straw but he had to walk carefully since the ban in place of becoming subject to multiple topic bans. Onkuchia (talk) 17:37, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

And strangely enough, this is your second edit ever on WP:AN after this one. No prizes for guessing what transpired there also! Mar4d (talk) 17:49, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - To ALL partisan editors, please chill out. Blocking your opposition from Wikipedia will only reduce the quality of the entire platform. Focus on generating a healthy competition over coming up with reliable sources to support your own POVs which you all clearly hold, and dont turn this into personal disputes. Enough with this constant crying to the moderators over account/topic bans etc. Take the actual issues over content to arbitration, but for the sake of everyone's sanity, leave personal attacks out of it. Code16 (talk) 18:30, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Proposal: Boomerang for Orientls

Going through this thread, it does not look like NadirAli is a problem anymore but continuous battleground behavior, misrepresenting the CU results, and attacking admins unnecessarily on Orientls part are a problem so why not turn it around against them. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:40, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support, but I would like to note this is a wider problem involving others as noted in my comments regarding this case. The entire premise of this mess is axe-grinding and one-upmanship. Sigh. Mar4d (talk) 17:28, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Wheel of Fortune vandalism

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The following IPs have been vandalizing Wheel of Fortune (U.S. game show): this one and this one.

I have seen IPs in a similar range, leaving similarly malicious edit on a fan wiki for Wheel that I founded, such as this one. Given that they use the "newer" style IP ranges that are a huge mishmash of numbers, I don't know if a rangeblock is possible or not. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 02:01, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@TenPoundHammer: The range would be 2601:81:8500:f6e0:81e2:404a:5521:8cae/5, which is too large for a rangeblock. Home Lander (talk) 02:10, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@Home Lander: what would be the best way to curtail this vandalism then? I almost suspect it may be a bot, given how it vomits randomly related words onto everything. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 02:24, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@TenPoundHammer: If it gets super bad, request WoF to be semi-protected, I'd say. Home Lander (talk) 02:26, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Range blocked for a week. Let me know if it starts up again. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:32, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: Not sure if it matters, but it doesn't look like 2001:1970:521F:2900:C9C0:36D1:EDC8:E736 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is included in the range; that is one that I included to calculate the (too large) range above. Home Lander (talk) 02:47, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

That's a different ISP and in different country, and it only made one edit which was several days ago. Maximum block for IPv6 allowed is /19. -★- PlyrStar93 _{→Message me. ←} 03:07, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@PlyrStar93: That's what I get for not running whois on more than one of the IPs. Home Lander (talk) 03:16, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

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Jeremy Corben

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Jeremy Corbyn ‎ Article is under discretionary sanctions clearly on the edit screen as one revert - User:Exzachary is breaking those conditions. Govindaharihari (talk) 03:35, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

the addition is well-sourced and neutral.Exzachary (talk) 03:39, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I've blocked for 24 hours as a regular admin action (not AE) as they don't seem to be formally aware of the sanctions and were continuing to edit war after getting a warning, which is disruptive regardless of XRR. Any admin is free to unblock if I'm not around and they agree to stop. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:41, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

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Dispute

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I would like to ask for opening a dispute here [56] concerning this entry [[57]] After many discussions it is difficult to arrive to a consensus and at the moment the entry is blocked and with a version that in my oppinion is not based on facts but on oppinions of third people (videos and articles). The accusations of having links to far right organisation is very serious. Thanks!--Manlorsen (talk) 09:33, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

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Add Gadget

Hi, please add gadget "Pod nadpisem článku zobrazit odkaz na položku ve Wikidatech s jejím štítkem a popisem" from Czech Wikipedia. You can find it here (Uživatelské rozhraní). Thanks --Patriccck (talk) 11:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

The name is "WikidataInfo".--Patriccck (talk) 12:00, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

May I please get some help with a request on my talk page?

Hi all, I can't look into this right now, and I'm not terribly good with IP range stuff. On my talk page is a request from the very polite editor KatnissEverdeen, who is experiencing problems at some Scooby-Doo-related articles. IP range 73.61.1* seems to be the issue, and since they keep hopping, she's not been able to contact them to encourage them to discuss their changes. She also wonders whether or not this could be an open proxy. If anybody could look into this, I'd be appreciative. Thank you! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:46, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Done! Swarm ♠ 16:01, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

These edits (the ones to the cartoon articles) remind me strongly of Fangusu (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Fangusu or Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Fangusu) but the locations are wrong. Hmm. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:59, 14 August 2018 (UTC)