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*'''Comment''' is this verified? '''~''' <span style="color:#00CCFF;">Destroyeraa</span>[[User:Destroyeraa|🌀]] 19:33, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' is this verified? '''~''' <span style="color:#00CCFF;">Destroyeraa</span>[[User:Destroyeraa|🌀]] 19:33, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
**After scans the researchers reportedly dissected two cadavers, one male and one female. They all had a set. But, per CNN, "the study concentrated on a small number of patients who were mostly male and used specific rather than standard tests [...] examination of more women and healthier patients would allow for better data". Still, I don't think it would be disproven. [[User:Brandmeister|Brandmeister]]<sup>[[User talk:Brandmeister|talk]]</sup> 20:18, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
**After scans the researchers reportedly dissected two cadavers, one male and one female. They all had a set. But, per CNN, "the study concentrated on a small number of patients who were mostly male and used specific rather than standard tests [...] examination of more women and healthier patients would allow for better data". Still, I don't think it would be disproven. [[User:Brandmeister|Brandmeister]]<sup>[[User talk:Brandmeister|talk]]</sup> 20:18, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I don't how notable ''Radiotherapy & Oncology'' is within it's field, but I find it an odd venue for reporting new findings in anatomy. Target article has been orange tagged for expansion since 2018, which is unsuitable for a non-event article. This seems a little too close to primary sources for the Front Page.[[Special:Contributions/130.233.2.222|130.233.2.222]] ([[User talk:130.233.2.222|talk]]) 05:59, 23 October 2020 (UTC)


==== (Posted) RD: Vijayalakshmi Ramanan ====
==== (Posted) RD: Vijayalakshmi Ramanan ====

Revision as of 05:59, 23 October 2020

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Archives

October 23

October 23, 2020 (2020-10-23) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

October 22

October 22, 2020 (2020-10-22) (Thursday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

RD: Joel Daly

Article: Joel Daly (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Chicago Tribune; Chicago Sun-Times; WLS-TV (ABC)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 01:06, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lebanon PM

Article: Saad Hariri (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Saad Hariri becomes the new Prime Minister of Lebanon (Post)
News source(s): Al Jazeera
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Sorry I don't know template/protocol, Hariri might not be head of state, but this shuffling is pretty big in the instability there. He's not got a cabinet set up, but he will. 195.250.80.226 (talk) 18:55, 22 October 2020 (UTC) 195.250.80.226 (talk) 18:55, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Wait It seems that he is not officially PM again yet, as he has only been appointed by parliament to try and form a new coalition. It remains to be seen whether he will succeed, and I'm not enough of an expert in Lebanese politics to know how likely that is. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 20:15, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Ongoing: Thai protests

Article: 2020 Thai protests (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
Credits:

Nominator's comments: So the Thai protests were pushed off. Still ongoing very much, as this just happened. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 13:09, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Lekki massacre

Topic is already in ongoing. Stephen 00:49, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Article: Lekki Massacre (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Nigerian army shoots at peaceful protesters, killing 12 according to Amnesty International. (Post)
News source(s): https://apnews.com/article/police-violence-police-brutality-lagos-nigeria-98ee3550fb576d561d84b372a65cc95f
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Massacre of peaceful protesters in Nigeria, top item in international news. File:Lekki-toll-gate-lagos.jpg is the location of the shooting[1] Eostrix  (🦉 hoot hoot🦉) 03:53, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

October 21

October 21, 2020 (2020-10-21) (Wednesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

Law and crime

RD: Marge Champion

Article: Marge Champion (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The New York Times; The Guardian; The Hollywood Reporter
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 02:42, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Looks good. Well referenced and good structure too. I am not a fan of bullet list being used in the 'legacy and honors' section, but, then prose being written there rather than a list. Should be an easy fix. Good to go post that. PS: Nice job on the filmography! Ktin (talk) 03:16, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

New pair of salivary glands

Article: Salivary gland (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Scientists discover a new pair of salivary glands in humans. (Post)
News source(s): Radiotherapy & Oncology CNN, The Scientist, The Hindu
Credits:

Nominator's comments: While the article in Radiotherapy & Oncology was published on 22 September, for some reason mainstream media broke the news on 21 October (while I learned about it today), so I'm giving this a try. If anything, the current update is small. Brandmeistertalk 16:40, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Unsure I had read about this a few days ago. The reason I didn't think of this for ITN, the sources were giving the sense that it was just a claim from one group of researchers, and is yet to be confirmed independently, for one, and for another, there was uncertainty as to how it should be categorised (a new organ, a new part of a previously known organ, ..., ...). I would like clarification on what exactly the finding is that we would be hailing as a significant leap and what the confidence is with which we can claim it. Best, Usedtobecool ☎️ 16:50, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment is this verified? ~ Destroyeraa🌀 19:33, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • After scans the researchers reportedly dissected two cadavers, one male and one female. They all had a set. But, per CNN, "the study concentrated on a small number of patients who were mostly male and used specific rather than standard tests [...] examination of more women and healthier patients would allow for better data". Still, I don't think it would be disproven. Brandmeistertalk 20:18, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't how notable Radiotherapy & Oncology is within it's field, but I find it an odd venue for reporting new findings in anatomy. Target article has been orange tagged for expansion since 2018, which is unsuitable for a non-event article. This seems a little too close to primary sources for the Front Page.130.233.2.222 (talk) 05:59, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Vijayalakshmi Ramanan

Article: Vijayalakshmi Ramanan (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Deccan Herald Indian Express
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: First woman Indian Air Force officer. Article is shaping up as a start-class biography. Should be ready soon. Edits done. Article looks good and ready for homepage / RD. RIP. And if someone has some time for a clip. RIP Dr. Ramanan. Ktin (talk) 05:08, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) ORISIS-Rex makes touchdown with asteroid

Proposed image
Article: OSIRIS-REx (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The OSIRIS-REx probe successfully makes brief touchdown and collects a sample from the asteroid Bennu. (Post)
News source(s): NYTimes
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: First: yes, OSIRIS has been ITN twice before: at launch, and when it achieved near orbit of the asteroid. Yesterday, NASA has it manuerver to briefly land and collect a sample from the asteroid, which they confirmed actually happened today via video and on-board sensors. Technically, that's arrival at the destination per ITNR, but even if that's not the case, it is the first for mankind to collect a sample known to be from an asteroid well outside of Earth's atmosphere. Masem (t) 23:21, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of the article is in the future tense as well, clearly marking it out that the return is the important part. Gotitbro (talk) 00:30, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As I pointed out, we have posted its launch and when it achieved orbit around the asteroid before. Yes, bringing back the sample will be important too, but that's probably the less unknown part at this point. --Masem (t) 02:47, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --Masem (t) 02:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: James Randi

Article: James Randi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Randi Foundation NYT
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Perhaps the most notable debunker (although that wasn't the term he liked) of claims of the paranormal 174.89.48.182 (talk) 21:50, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's his official website, most news sources will probably get their info from here, unless his family gives a separate statement to the media. Gotitbro (talk) 22:35, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but I wanted to wait for news articles to start coming in so that we wouldn't have people worrying about the Randi Foundation not being secondary. The Washington Post has this now, so I say let's post this as a recent death. KConWiki (talk) 00:15, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

October 20

October 20, 2020 (2020-10-20) (Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Science and technology

RD: Lea Vergine

Article: Lea Vergine (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Il Fatto Quotidiano
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Italian art historian. COVID-19 related. Died one day after her husband, Enzo Mari. Short but well-sourced article. TJMSmith (talk) 04:45, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Derryl Cousins

Article: Derryl Cousins (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Associated Press
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 07:32, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Ongoing: End SARS

Article: End SARS (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
News source(s): Guardian, BBC, AP
Credits:

Nominator's comments: We blurbed the protests, but looks like it rolled off. Today government forces opened fire on unarmed protesters (apparently after removing cameras in the area), killing at least 7. GreatCaesarsGhost 22:14, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It was before This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 04:50, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's not anymore. Stephen 04:53, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

October 19

October 19, 2020 (2020-10-19) (Monday)
Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

RD: Enzo Mari

Article: Enzo Mari (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Architect's Newspaper
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Italian furniture designer. COVID-19 related. Wife, Lea Vergine, died one day later (also COVID-19). Article is close but needs few more citations. TJMSmith (talk) 04:35, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Spencer Davis

Article: Spencer Davis (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian, Variety
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: From The Spencer Davis Group. Article is pitifully sourced, unfortunately. -- a lad insane (channel two) 18:24, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I have cleaned the article up; it is a bit sparse but at least in suitable shape for the main page. For those who aren't aware, the Spencer Davis Group is more famous for launching Steve Winwood's career. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:42, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Tony Lewis (musician)

Article: Tony Lewis (musician) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): SPIN, USA Today
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: English singer-songwriter/musician of The Outfield. CoatCheck (talk) 18:02, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment a couple of cn's added, it should be fine if those are fixed and I will then add support JW 1961 Talk 19:00, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Hiroh Kikai

Article: Hiroh Kikai (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Tokyo Shimbun, Chunichi Shimbun
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Saw this nomination on the Deaths in 2020 page. I have not been able to find any news sources talking about Mr Kikai's death, and that might just be me not searching the right places. However if someone is familiar about this topic, and can give the article a read (and invest in any edits as required), it might be worth working on and getting to homepage. Ktin (talk) 05:16, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2020 Belarus Protests

Though a good faith nom, consensus remains that this should not be on the main page. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 12:23, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2020 Belarusian protests (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
Credits:
Nominator's comments: It has been a bit of time since the removal, and the protests appear to be ramping up again. Around 50,000 people[1] marched just yesterday, despite threats from police to use lethal force, and the page is still regularly updated, though waiting a bit more to see what happens couldn't hurt either. Gex4pls (talk) 17:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The situation has recently re-escalated and the article is up to date.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 17:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose terrible article is still terrible. "Symbols" section is still orange tagged and still the subject of a low grade edit war. Protests are still a weekend outing with dwindling participation and insignificant mid-week events (like some driller complaining) elevated to undue status to fluff out the article. It had it's time in the box. Move on. --LaserLegs (talk) 18:20, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's true that the Symbols section is orange tagged, but I can't say that I understand why. I don't see the edit war you talk about anywhere in the revision history. This section was last edited on October 1 (which appears to be a minor expansion of existing content), before that last edited on September 24 (which seemed to just be the removal of a typo), and before that just a minor grammar fix on September 22. If there's an edit war going on in the article, it must be in a different section. I think it would be perfectly fine to remove that orange tag because it's very unclear why it's there.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, this was supposed to be ongoing, and i do have the associated press source in my comment, but thanks for the extra sources. Sorry if I messed something up, as this is my first time nominating something. Gex4pls (talk) 18:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a very strange !vote. It was renominated for ongoing because the protests are ongoing and the article is up to date. This is the criteria for an item to be in ongoing. 50,000+ protesters and several hundred arrests isn't nothing.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:43, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMHO that would be avoided if we didn't remove items from ongoing so hastily, necessitating renominations shortly after. Please comment on whether or not this nomination meets the guidelines. An item should go in ongoing if it is being continuously updated with new news. I feel like I'm replying to every comment here, which I don't intend to do, but I think it's important to remind editors that these sorts of !votes that don't mention whether or not an item meets the criteria should be avoided.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Vanilla Wizard: We made a lot of concessions and kept these protests on the main page for two months — more time than for any other developing story in the last couple of years — but we had to stop somewhere as it has become clear that they won't lead to any major changes. And frankly, the story will hardly be re-posted because of a march with no immediate effect like this one.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:46, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was under the impression that we simply follow the guidelines rather than make crystal ball predictions about what the protests will lead to. It's a currently up-to-date article about a currently in-the-news ongoing event. That's a pretty open-and-shut explanation of how it checks all the boxes that it's supposed to. Not every update needs to be notable enough for a blurb, it simply needs to be a substantial update; the criteria makes that clear. ITN/C isn't the place to discuss proposed changes to the guidelines, but if you and the rest of the oppose voters think this shouldn't be posted over non-guideline-based reasons, then Wikipedia talk:In the news would be the place to go.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Vanilla Wizard: I get your point but that's not how ITN works. Notability is the principal criterion for inclusion no matter how good the updates and the key articles are. People are usually biased by quality only in cases of borderline notability and that's when we typically err on the side of inclusion. However, notice that people here also complain about article's quality, so I think you should easily get where the opposition comes from. And when the majority doesn't agree with you, so be it and move on from the discussion. Your replies to every single opposer and argumentation with rules-lawyering won't make your opinion more valuable and may only invite a new wave of opposers who initially didn't intend to vote on this nomination. That's something from my personal experience.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:46, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The merits of inclusion/exclusion have already been discussed in a discussion that was just a few days ago, so we needn't debate that again and again. My point was that this is a WP:SNOW close considering the just concluded discussion on its removal. Gotitbro (talk) 07:48, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Seems fine by me, it appears that the general consensus is that this should not return to ongoing. Gex4pls (talk) 12:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) 2020 Bolivian general election

Proposed image
Article: 2020 Bolivian general election (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Movement for Socialism under Luis Arce (pictured) wins a majority of the vote in the Bolivian general election. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Luis Arce (pictured) is elected President of Bolivia in a snap general election.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Luis Arce (pictured) of the Movement for Socialism is elected President of Bolivia in the general election.
News source(s): AFP
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Jeanine Añez has also conceded. Morgan695 (talk) 05:14, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What are you talking about? 70.166.106.46 (talk) 00:55, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd ignore those two previous posts. Both pretty silly. HiLo48 (talk) 01:32, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Only concludes the first round of voting, and this guy will almost certainly lose in the second round. --CoronaOneLove (talk) 11:52, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It was a landslide. The second round is cancelled in such cases. Either of the possible conditions for victory has been met: a candidate is declared the winner if they receive more than 50% of the vote, or over 40% of the vote and are 10 percentage points ahead of their closest rival. Exit polls show 52% to 31%. Even if they slide below 50% on the final count that is still a more than 10% lead from the next opposition party. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 12:00, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Let's wait for official results then. If they officially call it with more than 50% of votes in favour of that guy then I 'support' posting this, otherwise I believe we should wait for the results of the second round. --CoronaOneLove (talk) 16:01, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait It seems all done but I don't truly trust the Bolivian exit polls. ETA: the Áñez "concession" means nothing since she dropped out ages ago, it's just her properly stepping down since there was no cessation of government from what I've seen. Kingsif (talk) 12:28, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait – for clarity, RS confirmation. – Sca (talk) 13:06, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and/or Wait I'm fine with waiting a little while longer for more reporting on this, but available sources (including the incumbent interim president) already confirmed that Luis Arce won it outright with a simple majority of the vote, meaning that he will be the president and there is not going to be a second round.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 17:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and okay with Wait This is a clearcut victory, baseless to suggest otherwise. Although considering who won not surprising there are those who would rather "hold off" the news. Albertaont (talk) 18:53, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like most countries that aren't the United States, votes aren't declared before they're counted and counting doesn't take weeks/months. Exit polls are treated as unofficial, not like accurate predictions. And since a 5 point shift - well within margin of error for some pollsters - would have taken it to a run-off, it would have been jumping the gun far too much to have posted earlier. That's why people wanted to wait while none of the candidates were conceding, and the only reason, it's disingenuous for you to insinuate otherwise. Kingsif (talk) 19:15, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait Despite the fact that Mesa conceded defeat we should wait until the official results come out. Also, this blurb is not appropriate. Bolivia is a presidential regime and not a parlamentarism one.--SirEdimon Dimmi!!! 23:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
SirEdimon - Do you have any idea how long it will take for official results to come out? I don't. Without knowing, there is really no point in waiting. HiLo48 (talk) 03:08, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HiLo48 The results are expected for the end of this week. Alsoriano97 (talk) 11:24, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Alsoriano97 - So you say. Even if they are available then, this item will be stale by then. Delaying posting is insanity. Would this happen with a US election? HiLo48 (talk) 22:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

October 18

October 18, 2020 (2020-10-18) (Sunday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Alan Stephenson Boyd

Article: Alan Stephenson Boyd (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The New York Times
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: I think this should be moved to Alan S. Boyd per WP:COMMONNAME. Bloom6132 (talk) 21:40, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Cyprus presidential election

Proposed image
Article: 2020 Northern Cypriot presidential election (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Ersin Tatar (pictured) is elected President of Northern Cyprus. (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian, Al Jazeera
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Northern Cyprus elections are not ITNR, but we have posted the most recent presidential and parliamentary ones, in 2015 and 2018 respectively. This is basically as high profile as these elections get, the President is the only internationally recognised representative of Turkish Cypriots, the election campaign was marked by developments that drew international reactions (including from the UN security council) and the election of the Ankara-backed right-wing candidate (in lieu of the pro-reunification incumbent opposed by Ankara) comes at a time of raised tensions in the Eastern Mediterranean, with significant short- and long-term ramifications. GGT (talk) 21:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I had started this as a non-ITNR, regular nomination, but the template above was changed to ITNR by GreatCaesarsGhost later. --GGT (talk) 00:32, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – Reluctant to open the door to reporting the politics of entities that are not recognized, de jure, states. That would be a dubious precedent, as there are countless regionalisms around the world. Yes, I know we posted items on Catalonia a couple years ago, but that situation was dynamic and posed broader ramifications for Europe. – Sca (talk) 21:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Just because it was posted earlier does not mean it 'should' be now. Taiwan is not really comparable and is not dependent on another major country (Kosovo also has wider recognition and is not substantially dependent on other states, though I would've opposed that nom). This is more akin to posting about elections in Artsakh/Nagorno Karabakh (which we haven't ever done AFAIK). I just don't see this being notable enough, there isn't a major leadership change and if anything the election only highlights Turkey's dominance over Northern Cyprus. Gotitbro (talk) 22:19, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course it doesn't, but the fact that it was posted earlier means that the precedent is already there and that we aren't setting it now. The initial argument that I was countering was that we'd be setting a precedent by posting this. This is a major change of leadership re. the longest-running diplomatic dispute in the west as well as the recent Eastern Mediterranean dispute. That Turkey has been able to reassert its dominance with the failure of the pro-reunification leader to be re-elected is newsworthy IMO. At this point, however, I will redirect users to the the Guardian article. That basically puts this into good perspective, and one can of course make differing conclusions about the significance based on that. --GGT (talk) 22:31, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Not ITNR nor am I convinced by the nom of its "ramifications" per Sca's arguments out above. Gotitbro (talk) 22:19, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Not ITNR" is not a reason to oppose a nomination. 331dot (talk) 22:22, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant was this is not usual election stuff (being an unrecognized state et all and hence different from the generally accepted election results on ITN), perhaps should've worded better. Gotitbro (talk) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support Turns out it was a sovereign state after all. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 22:21, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle. Actually this is ITN/R, because the criteria for elections covers "all states on the List of sovereign states". That list is divided into UN member states and other states, but the Northern Cyprus is certainly on the list in the latter section, so the above Opposes are not permissible. Also, as noted we posted it before and that precedent should be followed in any case, for a story which is featured in the mainstream western press too. There are a couple of cites needed, but after that it's good to go.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:27, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Northern Cyprus is not a sovereign state and is only recognized as such by the country with troops there. 331dot (talk) 22:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well it's on the list mentioned in the criteria, so either fight to get it removed from that, or change the rule here at ITN/R. But as of now, this is unambiguously covered, an opposes based on notability are not permitted.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:37, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
At one point disputed states were given their own section of the page IIRC. The list states that only a single country recognizes them as a state and the TRNC is not recognized by any international body. It's not me that needs to fight, it's you, providing sources that refer to this entity as a sovereign state. 331dot (talk) 22:40, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ITNR states "Disputed states and dependent territories should be discussed at WP:ITN/C and judged on their own merits." That's what we are doing here. 331dot (talk) 22:41, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have provided a link to the rules of ITN/R. It says in black and white that any state on the list is covered. Not only UN states, or states in the top half of the list. We defer to that list and the careful consideration that goes into it for validity,so we don't have to have pointless arguments like this one.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:51, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be disregarding the sentence from what you cite above. 331dot (talk) 22:56, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The "disputed states" link also includes Israel and China. Should we start discussing those "on their merits" too? Presumably the purpose of that clause is to cover cases like Crimea or the Donbass, which aren't on the sovereign States list. The fact is that Northern Cyprus functions as a sovereign state in all practical ways, and satisfies the "declarative theory of statehood", which is why it's included on our list of sovereign states. Sure, it lacks recognition but its election is just as impactful for people living there as those elsewhere. So even if you're right about it not being ITN/R, it's a notable story in its own right. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 23:09, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

By that sense, Sealand and Conch Republic (if they even do have elections) elections are also ITN-worthy and ITN/R because they declare themselves a sovereign state. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:19, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, the determining factor would be whether they are on the said list, which they are not, but Northern Cyprus is. —GGT (talk) 23:22, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Israel and China are UN members and each recognized by more than one state. The TRNC is only recognized by the country that has troops there to protect it(or occupy it depending on your point of view). The disputed states listing does not say it only covers entities not on the sovereign states list. The fact remains that no one except Turkey recognizes the TRNC as a state, unless you can produce reliable sources saying otherwise. 331dot (talk) 23:52, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(re: Destroyeraa) The list of entities with limited recognition (currently 10, including entities such as Northern Cyprus, Kosovo, Taiwan, Artsakh, Palestine, etc) excludes micronations and is decided through rigorous discussion, much like the List of sovereign states that Amakuru has linked to. I can assure you that you won't have to worry about us posting about the Principality of Sealand if we change the ITN/R rules to explicitly include entities at the list of states with limited recognition, or set a precedent that such entities can be included.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 00:50, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I believe we can discuss it on its own merits and ignore the conversation about whether or not Northern Cyprus is truly sovereign enough to be ITN/R; what we know is that it is a state that de facto does exist and has limited international recognition. Whether or not this nom is ITN/R seems to be debatable, so I won't focus on that, but - as 331dot said - just because the nom may not be ITN/R doesn't automatically mean it's not notable, either. Going off of precedent, this election seems to be no less notable than the last couple of Northern Cypriot elections we posted. The article's quality appears to be fine, as it's lengthy enough and well-sourced.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 23:06, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose A state that is recognized by only one other sets the bar far too low. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 00:59, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Amakuru. The TRNC is listed on the list of sovereign states and qualifies under ITN/R. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 03:03, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The line between a self-governing region and a separate country is blurred at best, but I think it needs to be recognized by more than just a single other country to count. And given that I don't think Northern Cyprus qualifies as a country, I also don't think its elections are notable enough for ITN. Mlb96 (talk) 03:53, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources have considered it a sovereign state for decades now, but you set your own standard as to what does and doesn't qualify as a country? There's a reason why there's a harsh criteria for inclusion over at List of sovereign states, and Northern Cyprus passes it. Nice4What (talk ·contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 05:37, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nice4What Please offer the reliable sources that you state consider an entity recognized by one state(with troops there) and not a member of any international body as a sovereign state. 331dot (talk) 07:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@331dot: Stop canvassing, realize that the TRNC does participate in international organizations, and there are plenty of results but I figure this will spiral into a conversation about every source's legitimacy rather than how obvious it is that this currently qualifies under ITN/R. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 14:20, 19 October 2020 (UTC); Edited 05:37, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nice4What I have not canvassed anyone to this discussion for any purpose, either on or off Wiki. 331dot (talk) 16:01, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many of the comments here are general statements about the suitability of Northern Cyprus election for ITN. I don’t think that’s a valid reason for an oppose !vote, since the ITN rules clearly state that even for disputed states, each election should be considered on its own merits, which by implication allows posting elections in disputed states. It is certainly not the case that no political developments in unrecognised entities can be posted, and generalised statements miss the nuance here. We have clearly posted Northern Cyprus elections before, so any oppose !votes should be explaining why this election lacks significance on its own merits (an example is Gotitbro’s comment), and not just stating the obvious that the election took place in a disputed state. —GGT (talk) 05:53, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Amakuru. This is technically an ITN/R item or the description for disputed states is ambiguous at the very least, although mentioning Israel and China as examples makes a very strong argument in support. But even if it's not, this is sufficiently newsworthy (not to mention the precedent of posting).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 06:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing ambiguous about an entity recognized only by a country with troops there and not a member of any international body not being considered a sovereign state while Israel and the PRC, both recognized by a majority of states and members of international bodies, as sovereign states. 331dot (talk) 07:57, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
FFS 331dot, you have been shown to be incorrect and yet you're still arguing about troops and international bodies and other irrelevances like that. This is verging on WP:IDHT territory now. The criteria for inclusion are crystal clear, they do not mention anything about troops, they simply say to follow the List of sovereign states. Which our list considers TRNC to be. If you want to change that, then you know what to do.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC) - Withdrawn, this looks a bit too harsh on further reading, although it is still frustrating that so many people are still ignoring the rules of ITN/R based on their own opinions, that's all I'll say for now.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:41, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's interesting because I feel the same frustration as "Disputed states and dependent territories should be discussed at WP:ITN/C and judged on their own merits" being disregarded, as clearly an entity recognized only by the country with troops there is a disputed state, which does not apply to entities recognized by a majority of sovereign states(Israel and the PRC). 331dot (talk) 08:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@331dot: I said technically, not absolutely, and it's clear that those two bullets that you're re-iterating in the discussion above are not completely disjoint (the first should be re-worded to "All universally recognised states on the List of sovereign states" to make them disjoint but that's off-topic here). Vastly more important is that the black-and-white discussion on the ITN/R status has impact on other people's votes so that they come and oppose simply on the grounds that it's not an ITN/R item or it's a state recognised by only one other without paying attention that this state is de jure part of the European Union but de facto out of it and the election loss of the incumbent president supporting unionism to a person who supports a two-state solution is a major backstep in the process of solving the problem. The latter is not only an internal political matter but of the European Union as a whole because the division practically tailors the borders of the Schengen area.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose With all respect for Turkey. Our own article cites Council of Europe "that despite the fact that it has not been recognised de iure by any other State than Turkey, the TRNC exist de facto as an independent State exercising all branches of State power on its territory". The same can be said about many unrecognized breakaway states, like Republic of Artsakh (which is also on the List of sovereign states) or Republic of Donetsk that also exist as de facto independent states exercising all branches of state power. With that in mind, this is ultimately a WP:NPOV issue and I don't recall posting Northern Cyprus before. Brandmeistertalk 08:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Brandmeister We did post their last presidential election and parlimentary election. 331dot (talk) 08:49, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it was a mistake. Perhaps some amendment should be made to ITNR for cases like this or the Republic of Artsakh (the latter, I'm sure, will never be posted despite being currently on the List of sovereign states). Brandmeistertalk 08:56, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose If we are setting the bar as low as a country that is recognised by only one other, that is such a low bar that you are going to end up with all sorts of edge cases such as those mentioned above. Personal opinion, regardless of ITNR or previous postings. Black Kite (talk) 08:52, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This really is quite frustrating. ITNR clearly states, even with disputed states: “The results of general elections in [...] Disputed states and dependent territories should be discussed at WP:ITN/C and judged on their own merits.” Note how the discussion should be about the merits of the results of the elections, NOT the state itself. That means that elections in partially recognised states like Northern Cyprus can be featured IF the community agrees on the election’s significance, so it’s the election’s significance that we should be debating, not some fuzzy sense of whether we’re “setting the bar too low” (whatever that slippery slope argument is meant to mean). The bar is already set. That is the playbook we have had up until now, and we have already posted two of these. That is what the guideline for this says and that is what I had in mind when I was working towards the nomination and arguing for the significance in my nominating statement. If the result of this discussion is no consensus due to arguments opposing it by the virtue of the election being in Northern Cyprus, rather than arguments relating to the election’s significance per se, then I suggest we edit ITNR per this precedent so that people in the future won’t actually be misled into bothering. I for one certainly won’t bother. —GGT (talk) 11:06, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I raised a suggestion recently on the talk page that if ITNR qualification was in doubt, we should treat the item as not qualifying. This was rejected, with the basic logic of ITNR: we're trying to avoid those discussions. This item is unquestionably ITNR, but clearly some wish that it would not be. It is on the list of sovereign states and not on the list of disputed states. I personally hate ITNR because it mandates that we cannot discuss the (plainly questionable) merits of something because of a prior (often VERY specious) consensus. But we can't toss it out whenever it doesn't suit our purposes. GreatCaesarsGhost 11:19, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not a disputed state? I don't think you could get one more disputed than a state which the entire international community, bar one, considers to be part of another country but currently under illegal occupation ... Black Kite (talk) 14:58, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I made no such assertion. My point is only that 1) this state is explicitly as on that qualifies under ITNR, and 2) consensus is we do not re-arbitrate ITNR consensus here. GreatCaesarsGhost 18:10, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Fully agree with GreatCaesarsGhost. The whole point of ITNR is to avoid these arguments. The "disputed states" clause at WP:ITN/R does actually cause confusion, because it links to List of states with limited recognition, which as well as Northern Cyprus also includes states which are almost universally recognised, such as China, South Korea and Israel. I think it would be useful to just remove the "disputed states" qualification altogether, because it doesn't add anything new. We are always free to discuss things on their merits anyway. And the third bullet point does not say that it supersedes the first bullet point, which says "The results of general elections in All states on the List of sovereign states". This is unambiguous, it doesn't qualify it as only the UN states, or only those with more than X% of countries recognising. Anyway, I've said my piece on this. It probably needs to be clarified with a discussion and clearer wording, once the dust settles on this one.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Beyond the fact that Northern Cyprus is not a widely recognized sovereign state, and is in effect occupied by the only country that does recognize it, I don't see where the election result portends a particularly significant change. – Sca (talk) 13:14, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Sca: The president-elect is supportive of a two-state solution and he won the election in a race with the incumbent president who has unionist ideology. So, the result is a major backstep in the peace process to resolve the dispute.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Vanilla Wizard At least some (like me) are responding to the assertion this should be an ITNR nomination, and not a regular nomination, only. I take the latter view that ITNR makes it clear that the TRNC is not a sovereign state and should be discussed on its own merits. 331dot (talk) 19:15, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate that you are one of only a handful of editors to mention that not being ITN/R does not automatically mean it's not notable, though I also believe that this thread has been derailed by the debate over if it's sovereign or not, and determining the consensus would likely require the closer to manually discount several !votes based on their own judgment of whether or not they are congruent with ITN's notability guidelines.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Personally I think it's a bit of a stretch to give this an automatic ITN/R pass, but it seems a newsworthy enough story and the article quality is fine.-- P-K3 (talk) 19:54, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, this is the main point that should be considered here really. Leaving aside the ITN/R dispute, the story has enough legs on its own merits anyway. It's in the news, the elected individual is the de facto leader of the territory in question, whatever the international legality of the situation, and it also has potential knock-on geopolitical effects in the region. It's worthy of posting on those grounds.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:01, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why has this been changed to ITNR? That is contentious at best and I don't see any consensus here of this being an ITNR nom, most people are considering it on its own merits and not its article quality. Gotitbro (talk) 07:39, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose with all respect to the Turkish Cypriots, but Northern Cyprus is a partially recognized non-UN country. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 09:57, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Marked as ready - It's ITNR, article quality is good to go.--WaltCip-(talk) 13:18, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
FALSEHOOD, n. A truth to which the facts are loosely adjusted to an imperfect conformity. – Ambrose Bierce — Sca (talk) 22:22, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That this is ITNR is in dispute. ITNR states that "Disputed states and dependent territories should be discussed at WP:ITN/C and judged on their own merits". An entity recognized only by one country and supported militarily by that same country is clearly a "Disputed state and dependent territory". 331dot (talk) 13:24, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's a sovereign state, so it qualifies. This is not the place to litigate the wording of ITN/R. That should be done on the talk page.--WaltCip-(talk) 13:36, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a sovereign state, it is clearly disputed. I am not litigating the wording of ITNR, it is very clear about this and it concerns me that this is being disregarded. 331dot (talk) 13:39, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You are exactly litigating the wording of ITN/R. The criteria give a list of states to follow, and we're following it. There seems to be consensus that the article has sufficient quality, so agree that this is ready and hopefully this can be posted soon. Then we can consider and discuss whether the ITN/R rules are fit for purpose, or need some amendment, at our leisure.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:43, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's almost as if whoever wrote the wording didn't realize that disputed states are included on List of sovereign states. This has to be cleared up, although the ITN talk page would be the proper place.-- P-K3 (talk) 13:49, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly agree it needs sorting out. We should lay out the various alternatives and !vote on them, then amend the wording so it's watertight either way. In the mean time, this one is stuck in limbo though. Many people think it's ITN/R, while many others don't. I also think the Oppose !votes are rather weak, even disregarding the ITN/R question, as they mostly just say "NC is not a state", without offering a rationale as to why its election is therefore unimportant. But then I'm biased, of course as I support the story's promotion. How do you resolve all that?  — Amakuru (talk) 15:25, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Pawnkingthree. Given the above discussion, I don't think this should be a quick "ITN/R + post", but at the same time, it shouldn't be a quick "not a sovreign state + oppose" either IMO. The article is better fleshed out than many that appear here at ITN/C; we have posted elections for this state previously; there are worthwhile geopolitical implications and these are described in the article. SpencerT•C 18:09, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I do think this merits posting(just not as ITNR), as this man's election would seem to forestall the possibility of a settlement of the Cyprus issue. 331dot (talk) 09:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has been marked as ready for two days now. It would be nice to have a final decision before it goes stale. —GGT (talk) 11:32, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm involved and cannot post. 331dot (talk) 11:40, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per reasons that explained by other editors. It's definitely significant.Ahmetlii (talk) 11:47, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The ITN/R criteria are clearly spelled out, and elections in North Cyprus cannot meet them. Explicitly, "Disputed states [...] should be discussed at WP:ITN/C and judged on their own merits.." North Cyprus is on that list, and "discussed on their own merits" means exactly NOT ITN/R. There is precious little arguments in these votes on the notability or impact of this new election as such; rather we are supposed to believe that simply-worded guidelines are somehow mistaken, or to engage in whataboutism wrt other disputed states.130.233.213.199 (talk) 12:36, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Pinging @Stephen, Muboshgu, Ritchie333, Masem, and MSGJ: - apologies for disturbing you, but as admins who have posted ITNs recently but haven't commented here, please could one of you assess this discussion and either post the story or close this thread? With recent supports I think it may have enough consensus to post on its own merits, ignoring the ITN/R issue, but obviously needs an uninvolved admin to assess. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 15:15, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I did look earlier at posting this, but I honestly can't see a firm consensus at this point. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:16, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see one either. And this is not ITN/R: Disputed states and dependent territories should be discussed at WP:ITN/C and judged on their own merits. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:34, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That bullet-point seemingly contradicts an earlier one that gives an explicit list of states to use, on which TRNC is included. Anyway, water under the bridge now. I'll probably initiate a request to clarify the wording in the next couple of days, but thanks Ritchie and Muboshgu for the assessment here, even though it's not the outcome I wanted to see! Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 16:44, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the final statements. Obviously I do think that !votes that opposed this purely because the election took place in an unrecognised state should have been discounted as explained above. This comes just in time for me to be able to get this one on DYK, so I've just started a nom there. For future reference, ITNR definitely needs to be modified - I thought the election would have been assessed on its own merits and thus I argued for its significance, so people just going "oh we can't set the bar so low" has definitely been frustrating, so we might as well set the bar more definitively, or else advise against such !votes in the future. --GGT (talk) 23:49, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: James A. Johnson (businessman)

Article: James A. Johnson (businessman) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Washington Post; The Associated Press
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 20:57, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Sid Hartman

Article: Sid Hartman (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Star Tribune; WCCO-TV (CBS)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 20:41, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Royal pardon for London Bridge civilian

Consensus is against posting. Sandstein 20:42, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article: 2019 London Bridge stabbing (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A royal pardon is granted to murderer Steven Gallant for his efforts in apprehending the perpetrator of the 2019 London Bridge stabbing, the first such pardon since 1996. (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: It is very unusual that the Queen actually uses her powers, here in judiciary. Kingsif (talk) 07:12, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Pardons are WP:MILL, The Ministry of Justice said the Queen was advised to grant this pardon (per the Guardian source above) means that this is the standard situation where the Queen acts on the advice of the government. power~enwiki (π, ν) 07:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • And were they a figurehead who is not supposed to intervene or actually elected to that theoretical mandate? Can you see the difference? This needs to be looked at within British judiciary context; if every nom relating to legal precedents were considered globally it is likely none would ever get posted as "not unique enough when compared to this thing that happened in some place with a completely different system and history". Kingsif (talk) 07:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Were the examples you cite of murderers who help stop other murders or terrorists? The Queen does not pardon people all the time. A US president typically pardons a few dozen or maybe more in a term.(and can only pardon federal crimes, not state crimes) 331dot (talk) 07:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I guess I meant "give a reason that's not you apparently disliking the Queen to the point of expletives after three comments and we might be able to talk". It is on the advice of the Lord Chancellor, who ranks above the government, and is an advisor to the Queen. And, as said, she still actually did it. The Queen doesn't intervene, especially to pardon murder, unless she chooses to. It's actually exercising her powers rather than just nodding at every elected PM to go ahead. Kingsif (talk) 07:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You didn't answer my question. I gave two examples (from other countries) of murderers being pardoned this year. I don't know or care if the details match up with this case; I suppose none of them were juggling while they did it either, but that detail wouldn't make a case ITN worthy. And as I linked above, there were royal pardons in 2001, and that article claims they occur regularly for some cases (also presumably not murder). And if you fucking think that my use or non-use of fucking makes a fucking difference I will fucking say the word fucking as fucking much as I fucking want. power~enwiki (π, ν) 07:38, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Lord Chancellor is appointed by the Sovereign on the advice of the Prime Minister. and The Lord Chancellor is a member of the Cabinet, hence, part of the government. This isn't Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II going rogue to grant mercy. This is standard behavior of the UK government. Any claims otherwise are foolish, and any claims of notability based on a claim of the royal prerogative being unusually invoked are factually incorrect. This is my final reply on the topic; certain editors seem to have a strong opinion on this matter that isn't backed up by the reliable sources they cite, I will let other editors discuss this. power~enwiki (π, ν) 07:43, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: No stake in this argument, but I do want to point out that the current Lord Chancellor, Robert Buckland, is in fact a member of the House of Commons, and is the Secretary of State for Justice in the cabinet. He is decidedly part of the government, and the role of Lord Chancellor is appointed on the advice of the Prime Minister. 209.196.99.182 (talk) 09:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it's clear I was pointing out that Power was misguided in claiming the position confers a role in government, and that it's moot anyway because why would that matter. Kingsif (talk) 09:37, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's not an event that has attracted the enough attention of international media and Wikipedia editors.--WEBDuB (talk) 09:57, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It just happened (3 hours), wait for other users and countries to notice before saying nobody's interested. Which isn't the only metric, by the way. Kingsif (talk) 10:02, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) Hyderabad floods

Proposed image
Article: 2020 Hyderabad floods (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Floods in Hyderabad, India, kill more than 81 people and cause $680 million in damage. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Floods (pictured) in Hyderabad, India, kill at least 81 people.
News source(s): The Hindu
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Floods article that is updated and not too stubby. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 00:22, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Al jazeera[3] has reported on it, but thats about it. It seems that many media outlets dont really care about a disaster far from home. However, that is no reason for not including it. The article should definetly be cleaned up though. Gex4pls (talk) 15:42, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

October 17

October 17, 2020 (2020-10-17) (Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents
Health and environment

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Johnny Bush

Article: Johnny Bush (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Houston Chronicle; Rolling Stone; KTRK-TV (ABC)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 20:36, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bloom6132, I was holding off on this nomination since the discography seemed difficult to source / cite. Does that Allmusic link cover all of the entries in discography? Ktin (talk) 20:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ktin: Yup, all the albums are cited by AllMusic. Two are under the "Compilations" filter (i.e. Undo the Right and The Absolute Johnny Bush). —Bloom6132 (talk) 20:51, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ktin: And the singles that weren't covered by AllMusic have now all been sourced. —Bloom6132 (talk) 21:26, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bloom6132, Perfect thanks. Can you give the article one end-to-end read for copy-edits, including perhaps removing the last line of the current lede and replacing it with some of his works or honors? I think this looks very close to being ready for homepage / RD. PS: I would selfishly hope that John Reid stays on the carousel for some more time before falling off. :) But, if this article is ready, I support it going onto homepage / RD. Cheers. Ktin (talk) 21:31, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

European Rugby Champions Cup

Articles: 2019–20 European Rugby Champions Cup (talk · history · tag) and 2020 European Rugby Champions Cup Final (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In rugby union, Exeter Chiefs defeat Racing 92 in the final to win the European Rugby Champions Cup. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In rugby union, Exeter Chiefs defeat Racing 92 in the European Rugby Champions Cup Final.
News source(s): The Guardian, San Diego Union-Trubune
Credits:

One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 17:48, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2020 Ganja bombings

No consensus to post whilst conflict is in ongoing. Stephen 01:10, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles: 2020 Ganja bombings (talk · history · tag) and Ganja, Azerbaijan (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Missile strike at a densely populated district of Ganja, Azerbaijan's second-largest city, leaves 13 civilians killed, and 52 more injured. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Ganja, the second-largest city of Azerbaijan, was struck by a ballistic missile, resulting in 13 people getting killed, and 52 more injured.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Azerbaijan's second-largest city, Ganja, was struck by a ballistic missile, resulting in 13 people getting killed, and 52 more injured.
News source(s): Reuters, The Guardian, Al Jazeera, Voice of America
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Mass-casualty incident in a major city with an alleged used of several Scud missiles, killing 13 (including minors and women), injuring 52, and levelling an entire neighborhood. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 13:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) New Zealand general election

Proposed image
Articles: 2020 New Zealand general election (talk · history · tag) and Jacinda Ardern (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Jacinda Ardern is re-elected as Prime Minister of New Zealand after the Labour Party wins a majority of seats in the general election. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ The New Zealand Labour Party, led by incumbent prime minister Jacinda Ardern, wins a majority of seats in the general election.
Alternative blurb II: ​ The New Zealand Labour Party, led by incumbent prime minister Jacinda Ardern, wins the most seats in the general election.
News source(s): Reuters, NYT, AP, BBC
Credits:

Article updated
One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Preliminary results show a landslide for Jacinda Ardern. Davey2116 (talk) 08:35, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • 'Comment Genuine question - what do you mean by "confirmed"? The votes will take several weeks to count, as they do for elections in many countries around the world. Precedent and common sense would suggest that the appropriate time to post this item would be now, when the item is in the news, and not when 100% of the votes have been counted. Chrisclear (talk) 11:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, the main point is that the question of whether or not they'd secured a majority seemed to be unanswered. Even now, the news is saying "Labour was expected to win 64 of the 120 seats in parliament, and National, 35". Is that question really not going to be answered for several weeks? If so, then I'd be happy to post now, but we need to nuance the blurb with words to the effect that it's not certain if a majority has been obtained or not.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:35, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Special votes only change the seat counts by, maybe, one seat, so this majority will definitely remain intact.  Nixinova   T   C   20:02, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's entirely possible it could take weeks to count the votes. In which case something like altblurb2 might be a safer choice. Chrisclear (talk) 14:47, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru: It's a commonly used metaphorical term in the English language. But I wasn't trying to get it inserted into a blurb, just noting that all the sites use it as a descriptive term. – Sca (talk) 15:50, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Sca: fair enough.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:58, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If you're "not in principle adverse to posting this now", then would you be able to change your earlier "wait" comment to "support"? Chrisclear (talk) 14:47, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Chrisclear: OK, done. Although as I said, let's not say she has a majority if that's not certain yet. Cheers.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:58, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To veer off-topic, I do wonder just how many of the votes cast for Labour were really just to keep Ardern as PM, given NZ's relative lack of divisional party politics. Kingsif (talk) 16:04, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

October 16

October 16, 2020 (2020-10-16) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

(Posted) RD: Tom Maschler

Article: Tom Maschler (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Booker Prize Founder. Noted publisher. Article has not been updated and requires updates before being ready. Edits are done. Content expanded. Article is ready for homepage / RD. Ktin (talk) 06:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Ed Benguiat

Article: Ed Benguiat (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NYTimes
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American Graphic Designer and Typographer. Article requires some work. Edits are done. Looks good to go to homepage / RD. Ktin (talk) 01:35, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Ana Paula Scheffer

Article: Ana Paula Scheffer (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): UOL, Globo, Correio Braziliense (all sources in Portuguese)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Brazilian rhythmic gymnast. The article is very stub, but I'll work on it later. --SirEdimon Dimmi!!! 00:35, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Thai protests

Proposed image
Article: 2020 Thai protests (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Police use water cannon (pictured) to disperse youth-led protests in Bangkok, in the largest use of force in a conflict that has been ongoing since July. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Thai authorities declare a state of emergency and begin a crackdown against youth-led protests for government reform (pictured) in Bangkok.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Thai authorities declare a "severe" state of emergency and begin a crackdown against youth-led protests for government reform (pictured) in Bangkok.
News source(s): BBC, Reuters, Al Jazeera, AP
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: This is probably a major turning point in what has so far been a peaceful but long-simmering conflict. Article in good shape; never been featured on ITN. Paul_012 (talk) 17:51, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Thai govt. acts to suppress dissemination of information about the continuing protests. – Sca (talk) 13:22, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

Nominators often include links to external websites and other references in discussions on this page. It is usually best to provide such links using the inline URL syntax [http://example.com] rather than using <ref></ref> tags, because that keeps all the relevant information in the same place as the nomination without having to jump to this section, and facilitates the archiving process.

For the times when <ref></ref> tags are being used, here are their contents:

  1. ^ "Over 50,000 march in Belarus against authoritarian leader". Associated Press.
  2. ^ Camacho responde a cívicos que piden frenar cómputo y envía actas
  3. ^ "Many dead as record rains lash India's Hyderabad and nearby areas". Al Jazeera.
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