Talk:Chelsea Manning: Difference between revisions
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* '''Oppose''' I was going to support on the basis of [[WP:COMMONNAME]] and the fact that we follow where reliable sources go, and we should follow rather than lead on issues such as this. However, when looking for sources to back me up, I came across [http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/08/ny-times-to-refer-to-manning-as-she-171250.html this] very recent addition which I think alters the balance. If the NYT and AP are doing so, we should follow suit. [[User:Sailsbystars|Sailsbystars]] ([[User talk:Sailsbystars|talk]]) 01:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC) |
* '''Oppose''' I was going to support on the basis of [[WP:COMMONNAME]] and the fact that we follow where reliable sources go, and we should follow rather than lead on issues such as this. However, when looking for sources to back me up, I came across [http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/08/ny-times-to-refer-to-manning-as-she-171250.html this] very recent addition which I think alters the balance. If the NYT and AP are doing so, we should follow suit. [[User:Sailsbystars|Sailsbystars]] ([[User talk:Sailsbystars|talk]]) 01:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' He's still got the chromosomes, package and legal name of a guy and no ammount of critical queer/feminist/gender analysis will get around those three simple truths. [[User:WeldNeck|WeldNeck]] ([[User talk:WeldNeck|talk]]) 02:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC) |
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===Discussion=== |
===Discussion=== |
Revision as of 02:03, 27 August 2013
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Note: A discussion what title this article should have is being held at Talk:Chelsea_Manning#Requested move. |
To view an answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Q1: Why is this article titled Chelsea Manning?
A majority of sources now use the name "Chelsea" when referring to Manning which would make it the common name. There has been consensus among editors since October 2013 that this name should be used.
Q2: Why does the article refer to Manning as she?
MOS:IDENTITY says: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example 'man/woman', 'waiter/waitress', 'chairman/chairwoman') that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. [...] Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and ' [sic]' may be used where necessary)." Q3: Why is Manning in transgender categories?
The fact that Manning is transgender, and was a transgender inmate, a transgender soldier, etc, is notable and defining and has been discussed in multiple reliable sources (which are cited in the article). See Wikipedia:FAQ/Categorization for more information. Q4: I feel that Wikipedia is being biased against (or towards) my beliefs here, what should I do?
Wikipedia policy mandates that articles reflect the content of reliable sources and be written from a neutral point of view, avoiding advocating for any particular perspective. Minority ideas and opinions must not be given undue weight or promotion in Wikipedia articles. It is impossible for coverage of real-world controversies to leave everyone happy – ideas change and adapt over time, and partisan viewpoints are typically entrenched and unable to self-assess bias – but seeking and maintaining neutrality is an ongoing process. Concerns over bias can be addressed with bold editing following the WP:BRD cycle or by starting a civil and constructive discussion at this talk page to suggest article improvements. Q5: Why does Wikipedia include Chelsea Manning's deadname?
Wikipedia's guidelines say that we should include the birth name for a living transgender person in the lead sentence only if the person was notable under that name. This is the case for Chelsea Manning. By doing this, we ensure people who have only heard of Manning as her deadname can still find and recognize the article. |
Requested move
It has been proposed in this section that Chelsea Manning be renamed and moved to Bradley Manning. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. |
Chelsea Manning → Bradley Manning – I am requesting that this page be moved back to its previous title of Bradley Manning so a thorough discussion can take place.
Wikipedia:Requested moves makes it clear that the "Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves" process should be used in the following circumstance:
- "Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested."
Additionally, Wikipedia:Article titles states the following:
- "Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made."
MOS:IDENTITY also states that a person should be referred to using his or her preferred name only when there is no dispute:
- "When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself [...]"
Note that my move request is not a comment on what the page should eventually be called (I personally believe Chelsea is the proper title), but rather a recognition of the short-term term need to follow policy.
My move request is also not a suggestion of which pronoun should be used. MOS:IDENTITY makes it clear that in this case we should use the "she" pronoun. Pronouns are a separate issue from the page title. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Administrative notes
- Administrative note: Since I have no interest in the outcome of this discussion, I have volunteered to shepherd it for the duration, and serve on a three-administrator panel that will close it after seven days (or after any extension of time beyond that sought by the community). I am going to umpire, and make sure things stay civil and the discussion stays on topic. That said, please do try to keep things civil and on topic. Cheers! bd2412 T 21:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I see that someone tried to edit the bot's page to force a link to the section title. There is a deficiency in the bot's regex pattern matching, in that it doesn't find the section title when text is entered above the RM template. I'm trying to fix that, but as a stopgap, I'm moving this text below the template. – Wbm1058 (talk) 19:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC) (bot operator)
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Survey
- Today is 31 October 2024 (UTC); new comments belong to today's section on basis of Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). Replies are still welcome in collapsed sections.
22 August 2013 (UTC)
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Consider a compromise; qualify the person as their original sex chronologically up to the point at which they assume/come out in a new gender role. The person was a male/female up until that point as a matter of fact.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.98.4.11 (talk • contribs)
1) Manning has not yet undergone gender reassignment (he is still male, and I have read and heard somewhere that reassignment therapy isn't available in army facilities) 2) He does not wish to be known as Chelsea in everything he does - as part of the statement he issued, it clearly states: "I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)." (my emphasis). This means that Manning is still male, and until he undergoes full reassignment therapy, and agrees to be referred to as a female IN EVERYTHING he does or pertaining to him, I think the renaming of the article to "Chelsea Manning" was unnecessary. --The Historian (talk) 20:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.178.34.11 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC) |
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27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose I was going to support on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME and the fact that we follow where reliable sources go, and we should follow rather than lead on issues such as this. However, when looking for sources to back me up, I came across this very recent addition which I think alters the balance. If the NYT and AP are doing so, we should follow suit. Sailsbystars (talk) 01:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support He's still got the chromosomes, package and legal name of a guy and no ammount of critical queer/feminist/gender analysis will get around those three simple truths. WeldNeck (talk) 02:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Discussion
Wikipedia's actual clients -- you know, general readers not familiar wp-this and wp-that -- are going to expect to find an article on the name that's been in the news for months. During the notable part of the person's life they were know as Bradley so that's what the article should be titled. NE Ent 01:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's actual clients are going to find this article no matter which title they search on, because the redirect from her former name means they'll still get here anyway. Bearcat (talk) 04:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're right. However it's still interesting to look at what people are searching for: Bradley Manning vs Chelsea Manning Even with the front page ITN linking to Chelsea Manning, people are still using the Bradley search term more often by a significant magnitude. It might be something to look into a bit - perhaps it might represent what the majority still currently believe his name is? Before we make crystal ball predictions on whether this current trend may change, keep in mind that we make decisions based on the present, and not for the future. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 08:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Redirects: Cheap, easy, free. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- The parallel I gave was Sears Tower. Wikipedia wasn't in business when it was renamed, but I doubt it would wait long to title the article according to the new official product placement. I think it is acceptable to retitle the article according to an official new name, even though most people aren't using that yet. Even though I favor using "he" and "Bradley" in descriptions of the earlier events. Wnt (talk) 22:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is probably what you are looking for: [4]. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think you mean this: [5] --Yetisyny (talk) 19:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
MOS:IDENTITY
For all those citing MOS:IDENTITY, that guideline relates to the content of the article not the the title of the article. This discussion is a move discussion. It relates solely to the title of the article, NOT the content of the article. The relevant policy page for this discussion is Wikipedia:Article titles.
I cannot even begin to imagine why people are citing WP:BLP. There are no BLP concerns affecting this discussion from what I can see.
--RA (✍) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The general principle of BLP is that we have to have respect for individuals when we're smearing their names across the internet. I think it's misapplied here since we're confusing the reader to aggressively support the person's decisions, and that goes well beyond the dispassionate but polite concern expected for a Wikipedia article. Even if the policy says nothing specifically, the sense of the policy is correctly applied when being careful about how we talk about living people. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 19:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. I think it's being applied correctly--even if Octamom is the most common name, we don't have an article by that name for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hobit, we have no need to look to BLP. Policy on article titles like Octomom is given in Wikipedia:Article titles (explicitly in that case). A title like "Bradley Manning" is not akin to "Octomom". Yesterday, there was no ambiguity about this person's name - or any sense that it may have carried offence. It was simply "Bradley Manning". Today, they asked to be called something else. We can mention that but we don't have to rename the article because of it. --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. I think it's being applied correctly--even if Octamom is the most common name, we don't have an article by that name for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- *.92, you raise a good point. I find something upsetting in the way the article was so aggressively altered and moved on the back of Manning's statement. It doesn't matter if the article is a little behind the latest tattle. We should be more sensitive before jumping and move with a greater degree of care on BLPs (where there is no urgent need for modification). --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- He is one of more than 6,000,000,000 people, he is just as special as everyone else. If he wanted to change his name to 'Barak Obama' we would not be having this discussion, the page would remain his legal name of Bradley Manning. VictusB (talk) 23:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Define what you mean by "respect". It certainly doesn't, even as a general principle, mean that articles should only contain information that the living person would choose to have in the article. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Referring to a trans woman using male-gendered names and and pronouns, including the title of the article, is deeply offensive and harmful. BLP asks us to consider harm to living subjects. I can think of few things more harmful to a subject than disrespecting their identification on deeply personal characteristics like gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. --Trystan (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Emotional distress on the part of the subject is trumped by Wikipedia's mission to provide information in the easiest way possible to the largest number of people. The vast majority of the sources for the article refer to the subject as Bradley Manning, the vast majority of the pages that link to this article use the name Bradley Manning, and the vast majority of users of Wikipedia who look for this article know the person as Bradley Manning. Given that this is the person's current legal name and is not an inherently derogatory name, Manning's feelings on the matter are not enough to justify changing the name to Chelsea Manning. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is profoundly degrading to transgender persons to refer to them using gender-inappropriate names and pronouns when they have expressed a clear preference to be addressed according to their gender identity. The harm from disrespecting gender identity is profund and can not be reduced to mere hurt feelings.--Trystan (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, it is profoundly disrespectful. I think that brings WP:BLP into this. Hobit (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is profoundly degrading to transgender persons to refer to them using gender-inappropriate names and pronouns when they have expressed a clear preference to be addressed according to their gender identity. The harm from disrespecting gender identity is profund and can not be reduced to mere hurt feelings.--Trystan (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Emotional distress on the part of the subject is trumped by Wikipedia's mission to provide information in the easiest way possible to the largest number of people. The vast majority of the sources for the article refer to the subject as Bradley Manning, the vast majority of the pages that link to this article use the name Bradley Manning, and the vast majority of users of Wikipedia who look for this article know the person as Bradley Manning. Given that this is the person's current legal name and is not an inherently derogatory name, Manning's feelings on the matter are not enough to justify changing the name to Chelsea Manning. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Referring to a trans woman using male-gendered names and and pronouns, including the title of the article, is deeply offensive and harmful. BLP asks us to consider harm to living subjects. I can think of few things more harmful to a subject than disrespecting their identification on deeply personal characteristics like gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. --Trystan (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- One would expect the title of an article to be consistent of its contents. Wikipedia:Article titles also states that the naming guidelines should be used be interpreted in conjunction with other policies Vexorian (talk) 03:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline and not policy, policies outweigh guidelines on wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no policy on Wikipedia which contains anything that would overrule MOS:IDENTITY. And guidelines are just as binding as policies in the absence of a compelling reason to make an exception. In fact, Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is very specific on this point: Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. The only difference between the two is that guidelines may have valid exceptions in some circumstances — but unless there's a clear consensus that the case at hand is a valid exception, guidelines do still have to be followed every bit as much as policies do. Bearcat (talk) 00:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Policies such as WP:NOTABILITRY a core Wikipedia policy (person notable for being Bradley manning) and WP:COMMONNAME Bradley being used more do outweigh it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:N does not require an article to always remain at the title that a topic first became notable under; it just speaks to whether a topic should be included or excluded and has no bearing on what an article's title should or shouldn't be, or whether you can or can't move an article about a topic whose name changes after notability has already been established. And WP:COMMONNAME also explicitly says that there are numerous valid reasons why an article can be located at something other than the topic's "most common name". We title North American radio and television stations' articles with their call signs rather than their on-air brand names, for instance, because even though the on-air brand names are almost certainly more commonly known, they're rarely or never unique. We title most animal and plant species with their scientific (i.e. Latin) names rather than their common ones. We frequently choose alternate titles as a way to avoid spelling disputes between American and British English. And feel free to fill yourself in on how we dealt with the Derry vs. Londonderry and Dokdo vs. Takeshima "common name" disputes, too. COMMONNAME is simply not an invariable rule. So nope, neither of those policies is in conflict with MOS:IDENTITY at all. Bearcat (talk) 01:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Policies such as WP:NOTABILITRY a core Wikipedia policy (person notable for being Bradley manning) and WP:COMMONNAME Bradley being used more do outweigh it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no policy on Wikipedia which contains anything that would overrule MOS:IDENTITY. And guidelines are just as binding as policies in the absence of a compelling reason to make an exception. In fact, Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is very specific on this point: Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. The only difference between the two is that guidelines may have valid exceptions in some circumstances — but unless there's a clear consensus that the case at hand is a valid exception, guidelines do still have to be followed every bit as much as policies do. Bearcat (talk) 00:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline and not policy, policies outweigh guidelines on wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: I just noticed that Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Article titles includes the following phrase:
The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title.
- This would mean that MOS:IDENTITY applies to the article title. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- The MOS does indeed apply to the styling of all parts of the article, including the title. What it doesn't apply to is the substance of the title, that's what the naming policy is for. That being said, I think the more relevant point is that the MOS indisputably requires the article to use only feminine pronouns, and doing so is incongruent with an article title of "Bradley". (I also personally think more generally that there are other reasons, not relating to the MOS specifically, that the article should be under "Chelsea", but that's a different discussion.) AgnosticAphid talk 19:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it can be safely said that there is ten times more input on this particular article than there has EVER been to MOS:IDENTITY. The MOS can be changed; it should not be used as weight in this decision... and I won't even get into the fact that it was crafted by the LGBT wikiproject and obviously reflects their viewpoint. - Floydian τ ¢ 15:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- To defend the MOS from your untoward suggestion – which you did make – that it somehow reflects only the interests of a biased cabal, I'd like to point out that every style manual that I've seen, if not every style guide that addresses the use of pronouns for transgender individuals, requires the use of a pronoun corresponding with the subject's chosen identity. The MOS is based on other style guides, not the whims of editors as informed by their views on matters of identity politics. You should go to the MOS talk page if you want to change the MOS. Until it does change, this article must use feminine pronouns and the extent to which that requirement affects the choice of title is a legitimate question. AgnosticAphid talk 15:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- But surely that would be the cart driving the horse. The pronoun question is separate to the article name question, and there is no reason to suppose that one is more important than the other - though it's the latter that's receiving all the attention right now. I agree with the OP on this thread - MOS:IDENTITY does not answer the article title question. There's no reason why we can't call the article "Bradley Manning" and then have "she" throughout. Having said that, though, I think the article name implies a change of the lead, as well as a change of the infobox heading. StAnselm (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- By the way, some baby name websites (e.g. [6]) list Bradley was both a boys' and girls' name. I can't find any notable women of this name, though I found this discussion forum which shows that some girls do have the name. So, Manning could have come out as a woman and kept the name Bradley. Now, it may be significant that she chose not to. I wonder if all transgender people like to change their name when they come out? I asked the question at Talk:Transgender#Names? but I haven't got an answer. 05:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- But surely that would be the cart driving the horse. The pronoun question is separate to the article name question, and there is no reason to suppose that one is more important than the other - though it's the latter that's receiving all the attention right now. I agree with the OP on this thread - MOS:IDENTITY does not answer the article title question. There's no reason why we can't call the article "Bradley Manning" and then have "she" throughout. Having said that, though, I think the article name implies a change of the lead, as well as a change of the infobox heading. StAnselm (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the close
Just noting here that I've asked on WP:AN/RFC [7] and WP:AN/I [8] for an admin to close this who has had no prior involvement with the page. Hopefully that will make the close as uncontentious as possible. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Gender identity
Is Bradley legally a female or male? In the article United States v. Manning Bradley prefers to be known as a female, Chelsea Manning, so it seems Bradley is a male, but like to be refered to as a female, so should we refer to Bradley as a male of female in this and the United States v. Manning? Casey.Grim85 (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Bradley's legal status is actually irrelevant. The style guide states Wikipedia should refer to Manning using female pronouns. —me_and 17:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- To be clear, there is debate as to what "The style guide" says, and how it applies, you should go read the debate yourself if you are truly interested. Many people are arguing that MOS:IDENTITY dosn't really apply in this case. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Okay I was just wondering it all! Casey.Grim85 18:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is it logical to refer to a person who is currently biologically male as "she", regardless of how they perceive themselves? Would this same rule apply to transvestites, who are generally referred to using the pronoun "he"? I think it would make more sense to use the term "he" until the time that he actually undergoes surgical procedures to make him a female; only after that point will it make sense to use the term "she". (Cf. Wendy Carlos, one of the more famous examples of gender-reassigned persons.) Otherwise, it's just confusing to the average reader at present. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes. There are plenty of trans-women who still have male sexual organs, but consider themselves "women". Gender != biology. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, there is no single identifier that makes a "biological female". Whatever identifier you use will exclude many women and include many men (and the opposite for "biological male"). Biology is not perfect. --Dee Earley (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is it logical to refer to a person who is currently biologically male as "she", regardless of how they perceive themselves? Would this same rule apply to transvestites, who are generally referred to using the pronoun "he"? I think it would make more sense to use the term "he" until the time that he actually undergoes surgical procedures to make him a female; only after that point will it make sense to use the term "she". (Cf. Wendy Carlos, one of the more famous examples of gender-reassigned persons.) Otherwise, it's just confusing to the average reader at present. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- He will serve his sentence in United States Disciplinary Barracks, which is a male prison. So in the eyes of the law he is definitely a man. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not the United States, and we don't have to describe people only in terms of their relation to US law. A trans person does not detransition just because they move to a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision for transition. Legal recognition, like surgery, is typically quite a late stage of transition. One must typically identify and live as one's chosen gender for some time before either becomes available. And let's not lose sight of the fact that Manning's access to female socialization, and to HRT, are artificially restricted by her status as a US federal prisoner. She's done about the only thing she currently can to signal to the world that this is her identity. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't believe Wikipedia would dissolve a gay marriage just because the couple moved to "a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision" but I believe there would still be the expectation that if there was a gay marriage then there had to have been a prior legally recognized marriage SOMEWHERE. If Manning is legally recognized as female in Canada that would likely satisfy most people currently objecting. I believe you are confusing is and ought with respect to Manning's confinement. Whatever ought to be the case, if it IS the case that there not only is not but cannot be any legal recognition this is relevant to whether the dispute between the subject and his society as to how he or she should be perceived should be resolved in the favour of the subject.--Brian Dell (talk) 10:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- The fact of imprisonment in that institution doesn't really prove anything. You can picture that women could be put there at any time due to overcrowding or through some bureaucratic snafu. And what is transsexuality more than the world's most confusing bureaucratic snafu? Wnt (talk) 22:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning's gender is female. She has clearly stated this. Her biological sex does not reflect her gender, but that does not change the fact that her gender is female. The pronouns we use should reflect gender, not sex; so yes, it does make sense to refer to Manning as "she". 86.16.146.123 (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning is male. He might decide that he "identifies with" a oblique Vulcan transhuman tomale, but that doesn't make it true. Kotowing to the latest politically correct fad impresses very few and does little for wikipedias already shaky credibility.
- And throwing in your biased opinion without even signing your name does absolutely nothing for your credibility whatsoever. As such, we're quite in our rights to ignore your post completely until you learn how to use the signature. Like so: Blackbird_4 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Would any female allow Manning to use the women’s locker room at the local swimming pool, fitness centre, or public toilet? I doubt any typical female would be comfortable sharing facilities with Manning, would they? If females don’t accept Manning as female, then the name change is absurd. If women don't accept Manning as female nor let "her" use/share their facilities, then end of story. --BrianJ34 (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Um, no. That's not how gender identity works. California just passed a law allowing transgender children to choose which restroom they use in public schools. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah I think my young brother switched his gender a few times... then he grew up. What a stupid premise. "I'm a girl today. Tomorrow I'm gonna be a dinosaur."
- Um, no. That's not how gender identity works. California just passed a law allowing transgender children to choose which restroom they use in public schools. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Would any female allow Manning to use the women’s locker room at the local swimming pool, fitness centre, or public toilet? I doubt any typical female would be comfortable sharing facilities with Manning, would they? If females don’t accept Manning as female, then the name change is absurd. If women don't accept Manning as female nor let "her" use/share their facilities, then end of story. --BrianJ34 (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
So, I can just choose my gender by making a public statement? "Hey everybody, I'm female today!" What if Manning decided to issue a public statement every day at sunrise, toggling his gender each time. Would we have to retitle the article and change all the pronouns on a daily basis? It seems to me that determining someone's gender by asking them is not terribly scientific. Let's put the question this way: If we got a panel of physicians or biologists to examine Manning, would they conclude that he is male or female? ‑Scottywong| spout _ 14:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think they'd decline the request as stupid. Formerip (talk) 14:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- As and when Manning does toggle her gender in that way we can have that discussion; at the moment I don't think we need to consider that. FormerIP, there have been numerous levelheaded requests for people to keep hold of their emotions even in face of a flood of repetitive contributions, and those requesters are right - would you mind avoiding describing people's contributions as "stupid", and give detail as to why? 7daysahead (talk) 10:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is a basic difference in philosophy. There are some people who think that they shouldn't examine hypothetical cases until they're proven to exist, but when I raised this idea my thought was that whether or not it happens, our reaction to it is a useful test of our opinions, because someone could choose to do it at any time. I can picture a whole NRM with symbology of Ra's voyage through the underworld and the Yin-Yang of the cosmos. Wnt (talk) 22:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- As and when Manning does toggle her gender in that way we can have that discussion; at the moment I don't think we need to consider that. FormerIP, there have been numerous levelheaded requests for people to keep hold of their emotions even in face of a flood of repetitive contributions, and those requesters are right - would you mind avoiding describing people's contributions as "stupid", and give detail as to why? 7daysahead (talk) 10:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Bigotry, Knowing and Otherwise
I would like to point out that an alarming number of comments in this discussion are upsettingly dismissive of trans people. Comments that equate being trans to declaring one's self some other species or fictional concept abound, as does a focus on legal names that, while presumably well-meaning, demonstrate a painful lack of awareness of the realities of gender transitions and gender identity.
I would respectfully ask that whoever ends up making the final decision on this - and I don't envy you in the least - dismiss these comments entirely. Reasoning motivated by transphobia, whether borne of genuine ignorance or active malice, has no place in the decision-making of this project. While my view is straightforward - the issue of how to handle trans people's identities was settled ages ago, and relitigating it as part of a large and heated political issue is unwise - I would ask that whatever criteria this issue is ultimately decided on, arguments based on ignorance and bigotry not be given any serious consideration. The underlying principles to consider are existing policy - the Manual of Style, our sourcing policies, our policies regarding respect for living people, and whatever other policies that existed before August 22nd, 2013 are relevant.
Efforts to alter those policies on this talk page are inappropriate. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is a discussion of the name change, not the pronoun issue. It's perfectly coherent for the article to be named Bradley Manning and for the pronoun "she" to be used for the person in question, particularly when referring to events after Manning's claim of female gender. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That doesn't seem like a response to anything I said. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It seemed that you were referring to MOS guidelines on pronoun selection for transgendered persons. Is this incorrect? Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That doesn't seem like a response to anything I said. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Just be careful your comments aren't otherkin-phobic themselves. In my opinion, the issues of name and pronouns have gotten mixed up. The article name issue is not really about whether Manning is male or female, but about whether Manning is "Bradley" or "Chelsea". Having said that, I appreciate that for many transgender people, the change of name is an important thing. StAnselm (talk) 01:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
And I'd like to congratulate Manning on successfully trolling Wikipedia, mass media, and even own supporters at http://www.bradleymanning.org/ --Niemti (talk) 01:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Past precedent
For the record, what we did in previous and less politically charged cases:
- Chaz Bono - announced transition on June 11th, article was moved the same day. Surgery was not completed at that time, and the change was made based on his publicist's reports of his preferred identity.
- Lana Wachowski - Edit warred over the course of a year, but changed in December of 2011, months before Lana's first public appearance as a woman.
- Laura Jane Grace - Announced plans to transition in May of 2012. Article was only touched by one editor for several weeks, who opposed moving. Consensus quickly formed to move the article, and it was done within a month of transition with only the original editor objecting.
Those are the three people I can think of who made transitions after they were already notable enough for articles. In all cases the article was moved quickly, prior to surgery, and upon the public announcement of a gender transition. Precedent, of course, is not binding, but it seems to me helpful to consider what we did in less politically charged circumstances. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is possible that there were far fewer eyes on those articles, so the renaming slipped by. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 04:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sure. There are lots of possibilities, and as I said, precedent isn't binding. That said, the fact that this is tied to a contentious political issue is a reason to be cautious about the attention this one is getting. In many ways I trust the project's judgment more when there isn't a huge crowd gawking at a topic. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Personally, my arguments for the page being at Bradley Manning have absolutely nothing to do with her not having transitioned yet, or the name change not being "official" or whatever. The situation is simply whether she is better known as Bradley or Chelsea at this moment in time. U-Mos (talk) 11:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Invasion from reddit
I was wondering why I saw so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars and this is why - there has been three separate links on reddit to communities vested in seeing this page reverted to its original name. While new users are encouraged, this very vote seems to be a form of vandalism perpetrated by a much larger community of users disinterested in the way wikipedia works. It also begs the question as to whether consensus can be reached with so much outside influence. This is actually a fight that's existed on reddit for quite some time - whether gender can be self identified or not. There is a large group of people on reddit who would like nothing better than to tell the rest of the world what they can and can not do with their own self identification. Outside of giving a rundown on the complexities of gender in relation to biological function, and the system in place created to give gender "meaning", I don't think this argument should be on whether gender identity is "real" or not - and that's what this vote has actually become, a way for people on all sides of the issue to soapbox on whether or not they think a person can change their gender identification. This vote is in my mind a farce, and in no way represents the method in which wikipedia reaches consensus. Honestly, outside of the fact that I personally see this fight as an affront to a group of people that have to struggle to maintain their personal identities every day, and outside of the lack of knowledge when it comes to how gender identity works, I am appalled at what a shitshow this has become. Countered (talk) 06:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can you link to the Reddit thread/posts in question? Haipa Doragon (talk) 07:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/1kw14d/a_wikipedia_edit_war_has_started_brace_yourselves http://www.reddit.com/r/sjsucks/comments/1kwdp1/the_sjws_are_having_a_field_day_on_bradley/ http://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia/comments/1kvria/i_was_browsing_the_wikipedia_page_of_chelsea/ http://www.reddit.com/r/editwars/comments/1kw0s2/chelsea_manning_vs_bradley_manning/ http://www.reddit.com/r/TransphobiaProject/comments/1kx9ji/wikipedians_sure_are_mad_that_bradley_manning_got/
- The /r/wikipedia page alone has more than enough votes to have completely shifted the vote on whether or not the name should be changed, and it's clear from the comments which they support. Countered (talk) 07:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see the issue. None of those links are particularly popular (by Reddit standards), the wordings of the link text are neutral, and the discussion on Reddit is two-sided. On the /r/wikipedia page, there seems to be a slight preference for Bradley, but, so what? No one, anywhere, is telling people to vote in the RM discussion (I don't even think it's linked directly), and those few who do/did come here have every right to participate. Considering this talk page is now semi-protected, I doubt this is having much of an effect. -- tariqabjotu 07:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, your point of view has been supported by the influx of reddit users, of course you don't mind it. Regardless of which way they are swaying it - they are swaying it none-the-less. If they had been supporting my point of view, I would (and have) linked to their posts (see the last post I linked). Countered (talk) 07:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see the issue. None of those links are particularly popular (by Reddit standards), the wordings of the link text are neutral, and the discussion on Reddit is two-sided. On the /r/wikipedia page, there seems to be a slight preference for Bradley, but, so what? No one, anywhere, is telling people to vote in the RM discussion (I don't even think it's linked directly), and those few who do/did come here have every right to participate. Considering this talk page is now semi-protected, I doubt this is having much of an effect. -- tariqabjotu 07:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- First, this is a high profile and immediate issue in American history so hardly surprising editors would show here to opine. People care more about individuals who have had an effect on history, as opposed to celebrities or musicians. If Bill Clinton decided he was the female Clarissa Clinton would we automatically change that article's title and call Clinton a "she" when it was alleged he was raping and assaulting women? Not unless his defense at the time was he really was a woman so how could he have done so, which of course was not his defense. User:Carolmooredc 11:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Please assume good faith; I responded the way I did because that's how I assessed the situation, not because that served my position. I similarly did not accuse you of bringing this up because you want supporting remarks discounted (which is an easy accusation to make). You have no evidence that Reddit has been funneling lots of traffic here, other than "so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars". I don't follow how that shows an influx of Redditors. And, as you even admit, there are posts that also promote the Chelsea Manning title... so I don't see what the problem is. As I said, most of the posts are worded neutrally, and there are Redditors with a variety of positions, even in the most popular of the posts you linked; in fact, the top-rated comment here that expresses an opinion is rather tame, and sparks a remarkably decent debate about the title that doesn't devolve into the patent soapboxing and prejudice you fear. -- tariqabjotu 13:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You are incorrect in the belief that influx of users via a third party campaign will help your position. Quite the contrary, the views of new users recruited to support a particular POV will be ignored, and not help their cause at all. I see very few support posts worded "neutrally", but tons of posts with what User:Surtsicna above called "pure, policy-unrelated bigotry." I think this discussion was finally settled by Sue Gardner's comment, there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Wikipedia policy dictates. This talk page is not the right venue for proposing changes to Wikipedia policy. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your comment had nothing to do with what I said. I, for example, never argued that a third-party campaign helps my position. And I would never say that. Believe it or not, I would like this to be settled by consensus, fair and square. I don't care if this article stays at Chelsea Manning; that outcome would have zero effect on my life, and I understand there are acceptable reasons to do so (now and/or as time goes on). You don't seem to understand this, but discussions on Wikipedia are not wars or battles to be won. They're attempts to find out what we should do about a particular issue, given our vast number of guidelines and policies. And, despite your insistence that this is a black-and-white issue, where "there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Wikipedia policy dictates", there remains enough ambiguity in our set of policies and guidelines that reasonable people may still have disagreements. As has been pointed out a number of times, your eagerness to resort to labels and attacks on, and condescension toward, those who disagree with you is extremely unhelpful. -- tariqabjotu 15:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Per my new subsection below, it would help if people mentioned what Wikiprojects they mentioned it to on Wikipedia itself. Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 16:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Changing an article based on a subject's "personal preferences" or "self-identification" seems a weak argument, and possibly a dangerous precedent. I wonder, if a politician changed from being a Republican to a Democrat would we refer to them as a Democrat during the period in which they were a Republican? If a white person self-identifies as black or Native-American should Wikipedia do so? Chris Fynn (talk) 16:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
More discussion
WP:COMMONAME
WP:COMMONNAME says that when a name changes, "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change". Hence most support votes above are premature and ignorant of what the text actually says since its too early to notice a trend. Therefore, when editors use this argument I hope they search properly by counting search returns dating from after the name-change announcement. Any admin closure should take al this into account and disregard any votes which count pre-transition announcement sources. Pass a Method talk 16:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I can't find the post alluding to 270 odd recent mentions of "Chelsea Manning" so opining here. Obviously this is big news this week and there will be 270 returns. However, what matters is what Manning is being called a month from now (with this and next week filtered out) and six months from now, and in books to be written in the future. Not to mention if Manning in fact sticks with that name, having changed it once before, or adopts another. User:Carolmooredc 20:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's the point. The article was moved within minutes of the announcement of the new name, so there were no sources to support the idea that sources call the subject Chelsea. We've seen a number of sources use the name in the context of the gender identity switch, but we're still left with inconsistent information about the use of the name in standard articles. As this article from the USA Today shows, the media has not had the seismic shift some people have prophesied. Among the sources that apparently have not switched over to Chelsea Manning (at least yet) are Reuters, BBC News, The New York Times, CBS News. -- tariqabjotu 03:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- The article refers this person as "she" because the editors did so. The content may be changed again into "he". By the way, you might want to refrain from calling votes "premature and ignorant" just because of content changes and of people's views about name change. --George Ho (talk) 13:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- BTW, "Chelsea Manning" has had 36,000 views yesterday while "Bradley Manning" had 16,000. So "Chelsea Manning" is twice as popular as "Bradley Manning". So if we go by popularity on wikipedia, Chelsea would be the obvious choice. Pass a Method talk 14:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because Bradley Manning redirects to Chelsea Manning, only 20,000 of those 36,000 views came directly to Chelsea Manning without going through Bradley Manning. It's impossible to say what the source of that difference is. Perhaps it's because people looking for information about this subject are more likely to search for or type in "Chelsea Manning".
- However, it's also possible the difference is influenced by the fact that several articles in the media (as listed at the top of this page) link to Chelsea Manning. It could be because there are a number of people involved on this talk page and various discussions about the naming issue repeatedly looking at the article Chelsea Manning (myself included), which would not require me to go via Bradley Manning (remember, these are individual, not unique, views we're talking about). Perhaps it's because the Main Page links directly to Chelsea Manning. Or perhaps it's because people have heard the name "Chelsea Manning" in the news and have decided to search for that, even though when looking for information on this person they would otherwise search for "Bradley Manning". We just don't know, and I don't think we can read too much into these figures with all the publicity at the moment.
- From the Stats FAQ, "I wouldn't base any important decisions on these stats." -- tariqabjotu 15:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
List of Wikiprojects that have been alerted
I don't see any mention of this, per WP:Canvass. I looked in a couple likely places and found below. Perhaps people could share if they posted it anywhere so that others can decide if they want to post it on other relevant projects. Feel free to add to list below. User:Carolmooredc 16:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- WikiProject_LGBT_studies
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Conservatism
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history
References to Manning in sources
Sue Gardner mentioned several sources supposedly switching over to Manning's new name. However, they appeared to be mostly blogs and viewpoints that people should accept and use Manning's chosen name. As I said in response to her, it seems better to look at how sources actually refer to Manning in ordinary stories and articles, particularly outside of the announcement of Manning's new identity. (Doing that, we see a direct contradiction to the wishes of the New York Times' public editor, for example, as explained here.) So, I've begun compiling a list; feel free to add to it. (I must say that, at the current time, it is very difficult to find sources from after the announcement that refer to Manning in a context other than the announcement itself, so I hope that, at least over time, this can grow.) -- tariqabjotu 16:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using Bradley
- The Independent (dated August 23): "It came just days after a judge at Fort Meade, in Maryland, sentenced Bradley Manning to 35 years in prison [...]"
- The New York Times (dated August 22 online, August 23 in print): "[...] just as the court-martial of Pfc. Bradley Manning included charges [...]"
- Reuters (dated August 23): "U.S. soldier Bradley Manning, who was sentenced on Wednesday [...]"
- BBC (dated August 22 afternoon): "Profile: Bradley Manning"
- Using Chelsea
- The Huffington Post (dated August 24): "Americans have reached no consensus on the fairness of the prison sentence given to Chelsea Manning"
- AP (dated August 26): "The Associated Press will henceforth use Pvt. Chelsea E. Manning and female pronouns for the soldier formerly known as Bradley Manning, in accordance with her wishes to live as a woman."
Re-posting what I said above in the other section about the usages I found... (reorganized a bit to match what tariqabjotu did.) - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 18:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using Bradley
- CNN's video " (dated August 22) [...] CNN will continue to refer to him as Bradley Manning since he has not yet legally changed his name [...]"
- Margaret Sullivan's blog, while talking about why the media should change, linked to the New York Times Manual of Styles which has provision to keep a newsworthy name against the subject's wish (Unless a former name is newsworthy or pertinent, use the name and pronouns (he, his, she, her, hers) preferred by the transgender person - original emphasis removed)
- Reuters (dated August 23) "Bradley Manning, the U.S. soldier sentenced this week for leaking 700,000 classified documents to WikiLeaks in the biggest breach of secret data in the country's history, could soon be entangled in another legal showdown [...]" (the rest of article only uses Manning, and apart from stating Manning's wish to live as Chelsea, has no mention of either of the first names)
- ABC News (dated August 22) "[...] Military officials say Bradley Manning has returned to a prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., to serve his 35-year prison sentence for giving mountains of classified material to WikiLeaks [...]" (also mentions Manning's wish to live as Chelsea)
- CBS News (dated August 23) title: "Bradley Manning identifies as transgender: Transitioning explained"
- Using Chelsea
- NBC News clearly has switched to preferred name by Manning in multiple articles published since Thursday afternoon.
- One opinion piece on ABC News supports the change
I think it's best if it gets summed up by this USA Today article: Media torn in Manning 'he' or 'she' pronoun debate
WP:BLP Issue
I have seen the issue of WP:BLP pop up time and time again in the move discussion so I want to know is it valid to say that the article's title move violates WP:BLP? If so where does it state this or if not where do people see it as saying it? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Legality and notability
I found another case of a person not having a legal name change but their article reflecting the name tthey chose in the media.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bobby_Jindal
His "real", and legal name is Piyush Jindal, yet because of notability of his nickname in the media, it's been changed. There isn't even a rule utilized on this page either, and it's been like this for more than a year. Countered (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFF, lets focus on this article. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
because of notability of his nickname in the media
Yes. Exactly. The article is entitled Bobby Jindal not because he just decided to call himself that, but because reliable sources actually call him that. -- tariqabjotu 18:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Meaning of "no consensus" in this case?
If the result of this discussion is "no consensus", does that mean the title should be Bradley Manning or Chelsea Manning?
Obviously, the title is currently controversial (a contender for most controversial title ever). However, it only became controversial on August 22, 2013. Prior to that the title was stable at Bradley Manning. It just happens that the edit wheel war over the title happened to end up at Chelsea Manning, so the formal RM was created as moving Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning. However, the real discussion is about whether the title should be one or the other, not whether Chelsea Manning should be renamed to Bradley Manning (the distinction is subtle but matters if the result of the discussion is "no consensus").
If there is no consensus, it seems to me it should be reverted to the title that was stable before it became controversial. That means Bradley Manning. Yes, I also believe that should be the title, at least for now while that's how the subject is referred most commonly in reliable sources, but that should not undermine my point/argument at all: when there is no consensus in an RM discussion, the closer should restore the most recent stable name, which in this case is Bradley Manning. --B2C 03:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would think it would be Bradley Manning because there was no consensus to move to Chelsea in the first place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is evidence that BD2412 (talk · contribs), one of the closers, already understands this. -- tariqabjotu 03:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think we need to second guess here, or start proposing what should be done if X, or Y, or Z. We're just going to have to trust the closing team. I also hope this doesn't go to move review...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Slate blog post about pronouns here
This is fairly recent coverage of the issue as it pertains to this Wikipedia article.
Better reference for war logs leak
It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Chelsea Manning. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |
The 2nd paragraph of the lead section says Manning leaked, among other things, the Afghan War logs and Iraq War logs. I think Manning being the source of the war logs leak was long assumed, but it wasn't confirmed until Manning's admission on page 16 of his 29 January 2013 statement to the court.
The only citation currently given for the entire set of leaked materials is "Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. For Manning's referring to the documents, see Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010." Well, those sources don't seem to support the portion of the claim pertaining to the war logs. The latter reference is a Wired article that makes no mention of the war logs; it only discusses the Baghdad video, the Granai video, the 2008 Army report blasting Wikileaks, and the diplomatic cables. Leigh & Harding's book likewise, as far as I can tell from skimming the relevant chapter, doesn't explicitly tie Manning to the war logs, either.
So, I feel we should modify the placement and content of the existing reference so that it doesn't apply to the war logs, and then use Manning's own statement as the reference for the war logs—i.e., change this:
The material included videos of the [[July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike]] and the 2009 [[Granai airstrike]] in Afghanistan; 250,000 [[United States diplomatic cables leak|United States diplomatic cables]]; and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the [[Iraq War documents leak|Iraq War logs]] and [[Afghan War documents leak|Afghan War logs]].<ref name=Leigh2011p194/> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. * For Manning's referring to the documents, see [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak/ Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010].</ref>
to this:
The material included videos of the [[July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike]] and the 2009 [[Granai airstrike]] in Afghanistan; 250,000 [[United States diplomatic cables leak|United States diplomatic cables]];<ref name=Leigh2011p194/><ref>Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010</ref> and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the [[Iraq War documents leak|Iraq War logs]] and [[Afghan War documents leak|Afghan War logs]].<ref name=ProvidenceStatement>{{cite web|url=https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_zC44SBaZPoQmJUYURBUnBycUk/edit?pli=1 |title=Statement in Support of Providence Inquiry |date=29 January 2013}}</ref> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211.</ref>
Then, in the "Granai airstrike" section, replace the first reference with <ref name=ProvidenceStatement/>
.
—mjb (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is everyone ok with this change? If there is no opposition in the next couple of days, I will add it to the article. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 15:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be keen on that because it adds unnecessary footnotes to the lead. (The article is a GA and I was hoping to get it to FA, which is why I'm concerned about style issues.) I didn't quite follow Mjb's point about the need for an additional source, but if there is a need, the sources are bundled, so an extra source can be added to the bundle. The first footnote (ref name=Leigh2011p194) can be removed because it repeats the second. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for considering the request. The placement of references is flexible, of course, but I don't see how adding a reference is unnecessary. The problem is that there currently seem to be no references which actually support the claim that Manning leaked the war logs; the ones given only deal with other leaked material. If there's a better all-encompassing source to use, let's use it, but in a BLP we shouldn't say she leaked the war logs, and provide nothing to back it up. —mjb (talk) 22:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The lead is adequately sourced. The rest of the sources for that point are in the body of the article; not every detail in the lead has to be sourced. See WP:LEAD. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've added an additional source here to the lead. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Edit request on 22 August 2013: Categorize him as "transsexual"?
Please add Category:Transgender and transsexual military personnel to the list of categories, per the recent announcement by Manning.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Done Mark Arsten (talk) 21:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- This was undone somehow. @Mark Arsten: can you do again? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Done Mark Arsten (talk) 21:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Removed the "editprotected" tag because I don't support addition of it. Please revert the addition of trans-related categories. He is NOT yet a "transsexual" or "transvestite". --George Ho (talk) 16:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not true George. Manning was diagnosed with gender identity disorder many years ago, and this information was discussed many times during his trial. In the transcripts from 2010 (I think), Manning discussed his desire to transition. As such, with the now public declaration that he is a she, this category is clearly relevant.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is just great! You want to categorize him as such because of mere identity and disorder? That would be misinterpretations of the facts and be an original research, forbidden in Wikipedia. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You may want to read Causes of transsexualism. Someone who was born as a man, but feels they are a woman, and then publicly comes out stating that they are a woman and want to transition, is by definition a transsexual (or transgendered) person. I don't think this is original research at all - a simple google search of "Transsexual + manning" provides lots of hits, dozens of articles have discussed the issues of Manning as a transsexual member of the military, and what rules/rights she would have as a result.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Nothing in this article convinces me to change my mind, even when it is well-detailed. There were sexuality rumours of Cary Grant, yet he is not categorized as 'homosexual' by categories. I stand where I stand. --George Ho (talk) 18:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- If cary Grant had come out with a public statement saying he was gay, he would certainly be in those categories. In this case, we have both: 1) Manning with a public statement saying he identifies as a woman and b) Multiple media sources who identify him as transsexual, transgendered and refer to same in the context of his military service. if that is not enough to put him in the categories, I'm not sure what is.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Nothing in this article convinces me to change my mind, even when it is well-detailed. There were sexuality rumours of Cary Grant, yet he is not categorized as 'homosexual' by categories. I stand where I stand. --George Ho (talk) 18:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You may want to read Causes of transsexualism. Someone who was born as a man, but feels they are a woman, and then publicly comes out stating that they are a woman and want to transition, is by definition a transsexual (or transgendered) person. I don't think this is original research at all - a simple google search of "Transsexual + manning" provides lots of hits, dozens of articles have discussed the issues of Manning as a transsexual member of the military, and what rules/rights she would have as a result.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is just great! You want to categorize him as such because of mere identity and disorder? That would be misinterpretations of the facts and be an original research, forbidden in Wikipedia. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not true George. Manning was diagnosed with gender identity disorder many years ago, and this information was discussed many times during his trial. In the transcripts from 2010 (I think), Manning discussed his desire to transition. As such, with the now public declaration that he is a she, this category is clearly relevant.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
From what I've heard, the military won't financially endorse his change plans. And I don't think the government will either. And I don't think his insurance will cover that, as well. Probably other foundations? And how much is one hormone therapy? And surgery? --George Ho (talk) 18:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Quite true - it may be a while before Manning can do those things. but perhaps you misunderstand what transsexual means (or at least, the category). It doesn't mean you've had surgery and hormone treatments and so on. You can be transsexual before you actually take any steps towards becoming your desired gender.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- How besides self-declaring? --George Ho (talk) 18:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wait what? No you cant Transsexual latterly means trans (Moves to) one sex to the other. I think you are confusing it with Transgender like I did earlier. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 2) Well, there is "transgender and transsexual" in the same category name. --George Ho (talk) 18:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning is a trans woman therefore transgender, an umbrella term that includes many gender variant people. Sportfan5000 (talk) 19:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Please... enough! This guy's in jail; identifying self as trans-woman or transgender should not prompt categorization. It sends a bad message about trans-people. There is no way that we should basically categorize him, now that he is under military custody. And even calling himself a "woman" while in jail shouldn't be a mere source to add a category. --George Ho (talk) 20:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- George, can you please tell us, very clearly, what specifically you would require in order to justify this category. I note that Manning was already in another TG cAt, this new one was simply specifying military TG, and I've see no-one disputing that other cat.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I'm torn. Policy WP:BLPCAT encourages self-identity, as well as guideline WP:EGRS#Sexuality. WP:CAT#Articles doesn't say much except use categories with caution and care. We can't expect him to win rights of receiving support from military or any other. However, sometimes I either find another policy or guideline to prove that categorization is not helpful, or ignore all rules (but I am unwilling to do so). --George Ho (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter what rights the military choose to accord her with regard to medical treatment for her gender identity. A transgender person is still a transgender person no matter what her surgical status is, no matter what the status of the legal paperwork process is. There are no conditions on a person's transgender status; they are transgender as soon as they say they are, no matter how far along in the process they have or haven't gotten. And at any rate, the courts have consistently found that people in prison do still have an unconditional right to receive treatment for their medical issues — we sentence people to prison, not to denial of medical treatment — and that has been found to include gender identity issues. So even if she has to fight in the courts to have her rights respected, she will win. Bearcat (talk) 22:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I'm torn. Policy WP:BLPCAT encourages self-identity, as well as guideline WP:EGRS#Sexuality. WP:CAT#Articles doesn't say much except use categories with caution and care. We can't expect him to win rights of receiving support from military or any other. However, sometimes I either find another policy or guideline to prove that categorization is not helpful, or ignore all rules (but I am unwilling to do so). --George Ho (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- How on earth does the fact that she's in jail inherently negate being transgender? Bearcat (talk) 22:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't.
"This guy's in jail; identifying self as trans-woman or transgender should not prompt categorization. It sends a bad message about trans-people. There is no way that we should basically categorize him, now that he is under military custody."
George Ho, two things:- I took a phone message while you were busy with that discussion: The trans-people of the world just called... they said that although they appreciate you looking out for them and all, they've decided to go with a different spokesperson – one who understood the difference between transgender, transsexual and transvestite.
- It is impossible to have any meaningful point/counterpoint discussion on this "point", because it is a totally invalid argument, founded on non sequitur.
- —Grollτech (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't.
- George, can you please tell us, very clearly, what specifically you would require in order to justify this category. I note that Manning was already in another TG cAt, this new one was simply specifying military TG, and I've see no-one disputing that other cat.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Nevertheless, I expect a reverse of category change if the title becomes Bradley again. --George Ho (talk) 23:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- George, you didn't answer the question. You oppose these categories on this article, but you haven't stated clearly what would be needed to put a person justifiably in a trans- category (of which we have several). Also, categories have nothing to do with article titles except in rare cases - but no matter what title this article has now or in the future the categories should remain invariant. Categorization is based on what is 'defining', and I think there is plenty of evidence that secondary sources are referring to Manning as transgendered. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Establishing a consensus on categorization is too soon. HOwever, if you want an establishment now, that would be when he becomes a female biologically. That's it! --George Ho (talk) 00:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Good call. That would be while she was still in the womb though. See A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones
"Female biologically" is not as simple as it seems. There are people medically diagnosed as intersex male, then re-diagnosed as intersex female twenty years later (after puberty in their 40's). More common are natural female to male changes. Wiki's policies WP:BLPCAT deal with such fraught issues rather well. Based on Manning's build, any endocrinologist would suspect a high possibility of anatomical anomalies. XX chromosomes, partial androgen insensitivity, etc etc. She's 3 SDs from the male mean in several ways, from her photos, closer to a female mean. Zoe Brain (talk) 05:24, 24 August 2013 (UTC)- It's an interesting point, but nonetheless not that relevant to how we use the categories today. There are plenty of people in these categories who are probably, for all intents and purposes, biologically male yet which nonetheless identify as female and are in the process of transitioning. Per the definition, transgender does not require surgery or hormones. Thus I think TG categories are legitimate for Manning. Just as we don't require verification that a man is having sex with men in order to categorize him as gay, we don't require verification that a TG person has undergone surgery or hormones or other things before categorizing them as TG - we go by their own personal declarations and reliable sources, which in Manning's case we have in spades. So George, frankly, I think your "biological" requirement is not at all in line with past consensus on categorization of TG people.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 10:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well-said, Obi-Wan Kenobi.
"Nevertheless, I expect a reverse of category change if the title becomes Bradley again."
George, again with the non sequitur? Wikipedia's choice of page title has no bearing whatsoever on whether to categorize Manning as transgender. There are many different aspects to the discussions higher up on this page surrounding the appropriate title, but none of the ones I've read so far (besides yours) have gone to such lengths to challenge the very definition of the term transgender (I keep wikilinking the term, hoping that you will actually click on it and learn). As far as I can tell, George, you are the only person arguing this particular POV, which, absent valid reliable sources to back it up, is nothing more than WP:OR. —Grollτech (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well-said, Obi-Wan Kenobi.
- It's an interesting point, but nonetheless not that relevant to how we use the categories today. There are plenty of people in these categories who are probably, for all intents and purposes, biologically male yet which nonetheless identify as female and are in the process of transitioning. Per the definition, transgender does not require surgery or hormones. Thus I think TG categories are legitimate for Manning. Just as we don't require verification that a man is having sex with men in order to categorize him as gay, we don't require verification that a TG person has undergone surgery or hormones or other things before categorizing them as TG - we go by their own personal declarations and reliable sources, which in Manning's case we have in spades. So George, frankly, I think your "biological" requirement is not at all in line with past consensus on categorization of TG people.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 10:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Good call. That would be while she was still in the womb though. See A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
- Establishing a consensus on categorization is too soon. HOwever, if you want an establishment now, that would be when he becomes a female biologically. That's it! --George Ho (talk) 00:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Media commentary on possible Manning "ploy"
Having lived with a transgender person for 17 years, I personally think Manning is sincere. However, it should be noted that searching Chelsea Manning and ploy in news one finds a number of outlets have questioned his sincerity and this might be mentioned, though I'm not going to write it. Associate Press; CBS news; NBC; NY Post; Charleston Post Courier; Daily Mail; etc. User:Carolmooredc 20:57, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- This kind of article mentioned elsewhere here is an effective reply to these kinds of comments and these probably should be presented together, if anyone's interested in doing it: Chelsea Manning's case puts focus on transgender rights in prisons, Amanda Holpuch, theguardian.com, 22 August 2013. User:Carolmooredc 23:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- None of those articles actually quote any named reliable source who has claimed that Manning is not sincere. Ergo, there's nothing for Wikipedia to say about the matter. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I do not think that you actually read the sources thoroughly;
- CBS newsGreg Rinckey, a former Army prosecutor and now a lawyer in Albany, N.Y., said Manning's statement could be a ploy to get him transferred to a civilian prison. "He might be angling to go there because he believes life at a federal prison could be easier than life at the disciplinary barracks at Fort Leavenworth," Rinckey said.
- Tarc (talk) 02:54, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- An apparently-randomly-selected "former Army prosecutor and lawyer in Albany, N.Y." is not a reliable source for the purposes of making comments about someone's psychology and gender identity. His claim is not supported by any actual evidence presented, nor is there any indication that Rinckey has any pertinent knowledge or understanding of Manning's psychology or gender identity that would enable him to make informed judgments about those subjects. See our guideline on identifying reliable sources on medical topics - Manning's gender identity is, indeed, a medical topic.
- If there is a medical professional with training and experience in psychology and gender identity who has questioned Manning's expressed identity, that would, indeed, be a reliable source for medical issues. Otherwise, what we have to work with are apparently-baseless speculation and rumormongering, none of which have any place in the biography of a living person. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, so first it was "none quote any named reliable source", to which I provide a source that says just that. Then your argument moves to "well, he isn't a medical professional". Nice bit of goalpost-shifting there. Tarc (talk) 03:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, it's really not. "Reliable source" in the context of any medical issue must be considered in light of WP:MEDRS. That you appear not to have known about WP:MEDRS before declaring the unsupported waffling speculation of a lawyer to be an acceptable source for claims about a person's psychology and gender identity is obvious. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no requirement at all that this MEDRS thing be followed in any article at any time. This isn't a court of law, we do not call expert witnesses to the stand to testify on our behalf. If reliable sources quote people such as a former Army prosecutor on whether or not they feel Manning is's coming-out is a diversionary ploy, then that is 100% acceptable to use in this article. You're attempting to limit such commentary to "trans gender experts", and there's no way in hell that is going to be allowed to happen here. What that amounts to is censorship of opinions that you disagree with. Tarc (talk) 03:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- 'Speculation from some random lawyer' doesn't usually pass WP:RS, regardless of the issues involved... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is the biography of a living person, and we don't quote random people speculating about a living person's health with neither a single shred of credible evidence nor a single iota of expertise in the field of medicine which might support that speculation. It is not censorship to make editorial decisions about what is and is not included. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If the speculation is in a reliable source, it can and will be included. You may certainly include testimony of trans experts as well as they are found in reliable sources. This is how we go about WP:NPOV after all, ensuring that all significant points of view are represented fairly. Tarc (talk) 04:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- The speculation isn't from a reliable source - it is from a random lawyer with nothing to base his opinion on. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, that's really not how we do things when they relate to a person's psychology and sexual identity. For example, we don't include unfounded speculative claims that someone is gay or lesbian. Moreover, you have in no way proved that the unfounded speculative claims of a random lawyer represent a "significant point of view" rather than a fringe theory. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:12, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- MEDRS is often interpreted in an overbearing way, and this is one such instance. It is about medical claims (claims of science) not facts about specific persons. They want a scientific review article to say that the flu makes you sneeze, not that Bush had the flu one day. Wnt (talk) 16:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- If the speculation is in a reliable source, it can and will be included. You may certainly include testimony of trans experts as well as they are found in reliable sources. This is how we go about WP:NPOV after all, ensuring that all significant points of view are represented fairly. Tarc (talk) 04:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no requirement at all that this MEDRS thing be followed in any article at any time. This isn't a court of law, we do not call expert witnesses to the stand to testify on our behalf. If reliable sources quote people such as a former Army prosecutor on whether or not they feel Manning is's coming-out is a diversionary ploy, then that is 100% acceptable to use in this article. You're attempting to limit such commentary to "trans gender experts", and there's no way in hell that is going to be allowed to happen here. What that amounts to is censorship of opinions that you disagree with. Tarc (talk) 03:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, it's really not. "Reliable source" in the context of any medical issue must be considered in light of WP:MEDRS. That you appear not to have known about WP:MEDRS before declaring the unsupported waffling speculation of a lawyer to be an acceptable source for claims about a person's psychology and gender identity is obvious. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, so first it was "none quote any named reliable source", to which I provide a source that says just that. Then your argument moves to "well, he isn't a medical professional". Nice bit of goalpost-shifting there. Tarc (talk) 03:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
For those that might have missed it: Manning mentions her gender identity issues in the chat with Adrian Lamo, i.e. privately in confidence and long before she was arrested, so claiming this is only a ploy is just ignorant. Space simian (talk) 06:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
WP shouldn't be ignoring the legal aspect of this story because of an editor's misguided notion that an Army lawyer needs medical expertise to opine about the legal ramifications of Manning's request to be recognized as a transgender in a military prison.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 18:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Higher order planning
In the event that the closing admin decides to move the article back, has anyone given any thought to the possibility that Wikipedia is going to be on the receiving end of one of the largest media shitstorms it's ever generated? Because the number of overtly transphobic votes (which is not all "support" votes, but which is certainly a healthy number of them) combined with the fact that the entire British press and a large swath of the American press have gone over to using Chelsea is going to make going back (when we've already been the subject of several stories about how we've moved the page) a Very Big Thing. The accusation that Wikipedia actively chose to be more transphobic is going to have some real legs. (Especially given that the precedent from past public figures who came out as trans was a swift move of their articles, and so this really would be widely seen as a step backwards.)
To be clear, I'm not saying that expected public reaction should be the determining factor. But I am saying that anybody involved in the decision-making here, particularly anybody who decides to move the article back to Bradley Manning, should be preparing themselves for a few days of being a minor celebrity. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sure they appreciate your totally altruistic statement of concern for their well-being. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's going to be a shit storm either way. The botched process has assured of that. As it stands, at least one contributor is already making minor a celebrity of themselves through instigating the move to Chelsea Manning. The impression being given in interview is that the reason for opposing the move is because of bigotry (or "transphobia") and ignorance.
- This is not good for the project. And I don't think it's fair to categorise opposition to the article title as "transphobic". I haven't seen any significant opposition to referring to Manning as Chelsea (and using female pronouns) within the article. The issue, for the most part as far as I can see it, is limited to the article title. Deciding an article titles has a unique set of criteria, within which the subject's chosen gender identify or name is of no consequence.
- There is undoubtedly a section of "Bradley" !voters who are opposed to recognising transgender identity. However, there is an equally visible component of "Chelsea" !voters who see this as an opportunity for activism (see also Wikipedia:Activist). Whatever about the validity and value of their position on the subject of transgender people and identity outside of Wikipedia, Wikipedia is not the place to advance any agenda. And no-one should assume opposition to this article being at Chelsea Manning as being evidence of "transphobia". --RA (✍) 00:24, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Which other reason do you suggest exists for insisting on referring to someone using a male given name, that they have explicitly asked not to be used and said they do not identify with? I think you will find that according to the common definition in polite society, at least in the media world outside of Wikipedia, this is probably the most common form of transphobia. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:42, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should actually, you know, read the rationales given for "support move back" votes to find out. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Which other reason do you suggest exists for insisting on referring to someone using a male given name, that they have explicitly asked not to be used and said they do not identify with? I think you will find that according to the common definition in polite society, at least in the media world outside of Wikipedia, this is probably the most common form of transphobia. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:42, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see very many people insisting that Manning should be referred to as Bradley or referred to as he. What the move discussion is about is asking what should the article be named - NOT Manning. The most relevant criteria for naming the article in this case are "recognizability" and "naturalness". "Bradley Manning" is currently the most recognisable and natural name for the article (see the definition of the terms "recognisable" and "natural"). Within the article Manning (the individual) should be called Chelsea (their chosen name) and referred to as her. But that is not what the discussion is about. --RA (✍) 01:25, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Moving the article back to the now outdated and inaccurate name, thereby titling an article on a transgendered person in a deeply offensive manner, would indeed be a PR disaster for Wikipedia, as pointed out both because it's unacceptable in polite society in itself, and also because of all the transphobic commentary on this talk page, including comparisons of transgendered people to dogs and other animals. It would of course also be an obvious violation of the BLP policy. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- What section of BLP policy are you specifically referring to? --RA (✍) 00:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Christ, read the talk page, don't feel like reiterating it for the 200th time. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've read this talk page but I haven't heard mention of the specific section of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons that having this article at Bradley Manning is supposed to be in violation of. Can you indicate which section of BLP policy having this article at that title violated? --RA (✍) 00:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, because this discussion is not about that, and because that issue has been discussed very thoroughly in other sections. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- You raised the issue in this section. Go on, it will only take you a few words. Even just post the raw link to the section of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons that having this article at Bradley Manning would violate. No? --RA (✍) 01:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, because I said no. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Are you here to have a real discussion? you have used your "No because im right and you are wrong so there" argument more than once now. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Josh, we all want to know what section you're referring to. I personally do not remember which, if any, specific sections anyone has quoted. You can even point us to a comment above that references the appropriate section. CaseyPenk (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, because I said no. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- You raised the issue in this section. Go on, it will only take you a few words. Even just post the raw link to the section of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons that having this article at Bradley Manning would violate. No? --RA (✍) 01:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, because this discussion is not about that, and because that issue has been discussed very thoroughly in other sections. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've read this talk page but I haven't heard mention of the specific section of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons that having this article at Bradley Manning is supposed to be in violation of. Can you indicate which section of BLP policy having this article at that title violated? --RA (✍) 00:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Christ, read the talk page, don't feel like reiterating it for the 200th time. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- What section of BLP policy are you specifically referring to? --RA (✍) 00:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Except it's not been a shit storm. We've talked about Chelsea Manning on the frontpage for two days now, and so far all there's been is polite applause from the media. Which is why I think undoing it risks a mess. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I stopped reading when you called people who oppose the Chelsea title "transphobic", this is not the first time I have seen users here attacking others with keep as Bradley opinions. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Phil merely employed the mainstream, common definition of transphobia. The idea that you can insist on childishly calling someone who states her name is Chelsea, "Bradley", is really a WP:FRINGE POV and not encyclopedic at all. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I actually just called some support voters transphobic. The fact that there are support voters whose reasoning is explicitly opposition to the idea of trans people is a real problem. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:28, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Chelsea Manning" is not Mainstream in the media is the problem. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's demonstrably untrue. Plenty of English language sources are using it at this point, as has been well documented. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:28, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If or when the number of sources of the article referring to the subject as Chelsea gets anywhere near the number of sources of the article referring to the subject as Bradley, then that would be an appropriate time to discuss moving the article to Chelsea Manning. Not current media stories, but existing sources of the article. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's not actually what policy says - the article naming policy notes that following a subject's renaming we should consider post-renaming sources. Hence Willis Tower despite, you know, decades of it being called the Sears Tower. Phil Sandifer (talk) 07:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If or when the number of sources of the article referring to the subject as Chelsea gets anywhere near the number of sources of the article referring to the subject as Bradley, then that would be an appropriate time to discuss moving the article to Chelsea Manning. Not current media stories, but existing sources of the article. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's demonstrably untrue. Plenty of English language sources are using it at this point, as has been well documented. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:28, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Chelsea Manning" is not Mainstream in the media is the problem. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed, Wikipedia has been commended, lauded for doing the decent thing, thanks to Morwen, in a timely fashion. I see no shitstorm at all over that, on the contrary. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I stopped reading when you called people who oppose the Chelsea title "transphobic", this is not the first time I have seen users here attacking others with keep as Bradley opinions. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We don't write for polite applause from the media. And the fact that the media are commenting on the way we are taking a lead on this question is an indicator of the problem. We are an encyclopaedia, a tertiary source, and BLPs ought to be written conservatively. We are not doing our job when we lead the way on anything.
- But yes, now that we've drawn attention to ourselves, and drawn "polite applause" it probably will be noticed when we roll back. But we just as we don't write for polite applause from the media, we don't revert to our usual conservatism (in terms of approach to writing, not politics) because we fear their scorn. The lesson to be learnt from this is not to rush headlong into a move like this again. Discuss first, not after. --RA (✍) 01:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- What I want to know is why the admin not follow WP:TITLECHANGES? This has been brought up and keeps getting brushed aside. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- There are no compromises made when it comes to factual accuracy and BLP. The only source for someone's name is the person him/herself. We change it as soon as it's established to be correct. We do the same for dates of birth. Even if many media reported a wrong date of birth for someone, we would use the correct one. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Certainly. But what has this got to do with the current discussion about the title of this article? Many articles (including BLPs) are at titles that are not the names (self-chosen or otherwise) of their subject. The name of the article is the name of the article - and NOT necessarily the name of the person. --RA (✍) 01:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- There are no compromises made when it comes to factual accuracy and BLP. The only source for someone's name is the person him/herself. We change it as soon as it's established to be correct. We do the same for dates of birth. Even if many media reported a wrong date of birth for someone, we would use the correct one. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I wonder if those who have placed so much concern toward offending this individual (presuming titling the article as Bradley Manning would truly offensive...) maintain that gusto toward every issue. When someone complains about gruesome or sexually explicit content on the Main Page. When discussing images of Muhammad in Muhammad or Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy. Everywhere where potential for offense exists. LGBT issues are of increasing concern in the Western world and the Anglosphere, and the strength of the crusade some (not all) of those preferring the Chelsea Manning name have embarked upon seems to reflect that. Of course, when the issue is not so prominently objectionable in Western and liberal circles, we seem perfectly content invoking our policies and guidelines prohibiting censorship and permitting content that subjects may not like so long as it's appropriately verifiable. There's a reason Wikipedia policy and guidelines exist: so we can aim to make decisions neutrally without reference to our personal opinions. These remarks centered around emotional appeal are irrelevant. -- tariqabjotu 01:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We do take special care with biographies of living people that we don't with other articles. And believe me, the discussions over sexually explicit content and the Muhammad article were heated and extensive. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:35, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it comes down to numbers in the end. The Arabic article for Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy hides the cartoons, probably under a locally achieved consensus. There are local exceptions to every rule, and there may be some here for the purpose of clarity. Shii (tock) 02:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We do take special care with biographies of living people that we don't with other articles. And believe me, the discussions over sexually explicit content and the Muhammad article were heated and extensive. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:35, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I am actually consistent about giving priority to self-affiliation.. Not long ago i argued Mohammed Farah should be Mo Farah because thats how the BLP self-describes. If we are getting into the business of forcefully choosing peoples names, why should we not be able to forcefeed religion onto others too? Or forcefeed a certain nutritional diet onto others? Its batshit crazy retarded. Pass a Method talk 02:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No one here is proposing forcing a name on the person who is subject of this article. Bradley Manning is the name used by every source more than two days old, which comprise the vast majority of the sources for the article. Wikipedia follows the sources, not the other way around. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- yes but we should stay up to date as well shouldn't we? Every source prior to 2009 says that michael jackson is alove. Does that mean we should wait until the new sources balance out the old sources before we describe MJ as dead? Absolute nonsense. Pass a Method talk 04:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not a good analogy. I'm unaware of any article titles that describe the living/dead status of the subject, and I would certainly think it inappropriate to edit the Michael Jackson article to refer to him as "the late Michael Jackson" in the section on his childhood.Miraculouschaos (talk) 04:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Forget the analogies and wikipedia policies for a second. At some point logic should trump all else. Who gets to choose the name of an adult? Should it not be that person him/herself? Its pure logic. Pass a Method talk 04:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- We're not deciding the subject's name; we're deciding the title of the article. -- tariqabjotu 04:25, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- If it exists, the right to decide one's own name for oneself does not imply a right to have other people use that name. And as much as I would love to get into a deep metaphysical discussion on the nature of names, this isn't the right forum. Miraculouschaos (talk) 04:32, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- His parents named him Bradley. So you think parents should get precedence?Pass a Method talk 04:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- You know that is not what was being said, and I think this string is getting very far off topic from "higher order planning". Wikipedia should be neutral, nobody cares who gave who what name. We care about what name is the name that is publicly and popularly associated with the subject of the article in primary and secondary sources. --Sam Bingner \ talk / 07:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- His parents named him Bradley. So you think parents should get precedence?Pass a Method talk 04:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Forget the analogies and wikipedia policies for a second. At some point logic should trump all else. Who gets to choose the name of an adult? Should it not be that person him/herself? Its pure logic. Pass a Method talk 04:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not a good analogy. I'm unaware of any article titles that describe the living/dead status of the subject, and I would certainly think it inappropriate to edit the Michael Jackson article to refer to him as "the late Michael Jackson" in the section on his childhood.Miraculouschaos (talk) 04:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- yes but we should stay up to date as well shouldn't we? Every source prior to 2009 says that michael jackson is alove. Does that mean we should wait until the new sources balance out the old sources before we describe MJ as dead? Absolute nonsense. Pass a Method talk 04:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No one here is proposing forcing a name on the person who is subject of this article. Bradley Manning is the name used by every source more than two days old, which comprise the vast majority of the sources for the article. Wikipedia follows the sources, not the other way around. Miraculouschaos (talk) 03:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I am actually consistent about giving priority to self-affiliation.. Not long ago i argued Mohammed Farah should be Mo Farah because thats how the BLP self-describes. If we are getting into the business of forcefully choosing peoples names, why should we not be able to forcefeed religion onto others too? Or forcefeed a certain nutritional diet onto others? Its batshit crazy retarded. Pass a Method talk 02:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it's absurd to expect any massive media denunciation - they've followed every possible policy option themselves. They'd be hard pressed to have a feeding frenzy on us without eating each other right down to the last dorsal fin. Wnt (talk) 22:30, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning addressed as a "she"?
Manning was born a male, is a male and will continue to be a male despite his so-called "gender identity" problems. It's ridiculous that the whole article addresses him as a she rather than a he, as it should be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PikkoroDaimao (talk • contribs) 09:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, no trans-phobia there at all... NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is clear on this issue, take a look. U-Mos (talk) 10:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
His gender changeover occurred after the important events surrounding him took place. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration? Also,I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but his name is Bradley Manning and he should be addressed as a man.You can't just put the trans-phobic label on everyone with this opinion. (MightySaiyan (talk) 10:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC))
- Actually, yes, I can put the trans-phobic label on everyone with that opinion.
- "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but John Doe is a man and he should not be allowed to marry another man" is unambiguously homophobic.
- "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but John Doe is a black man and he should not be allowed to marry a white woman" is unambiguously racist.
- Please explain how your argument is not unambiguously transphobic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I do not share MightySaiyan's view on this, but the analogous transphobic comment to your examples would be "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but Bradley Manning is a man and should not be able to live as a woman." That's not at all what was said, MightySaiyan was talking about Manning's legal name and his views on what that should mean for the wording on an encyclopedic article. Such inflammatory responses to that are helping no one. U-Mos (talk) 14:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- This discussion has been had UMPTEEN times on this page already. Please drop the stick, both of you. Focus on content. The article currently uses "she", and will likely continue to do so unless MOS:IDENTITY has changed. Thus, there's not much more to say here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Do we have evidence she was born as a he? Any medical assessment of genitalia and chromosomes at the moment of birth (from reputable sources, of course) ? Vexorian (talk) 16:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Just a comment: I don't think we should call this transphobia. Transphobia should be when people beat up transsexuals and discriminate against them, as some sort of evidence of actual animosity. I think there should be some other category of "trans-skepticism" where a person can decide he doesn't believe the surgery and lifestyle changes really change what sex someone is, or doesn't want to stop using an old name or pronoun in certain circumstances, when there is no animosity. Much as someone can be firmly unbelieving of Islam but not Islamophobic. Wnt (talk) 22:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Threats from trolls to editors
Keeping it classy - David Gerard (talk) 21:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- What, purpose, exactly are you trying to serve by raising this? One person, who apparently has corresponded with Morwen before, sent Morwen a private email, which she then posted on her public blog with some editorialization. I don't see the relevance, other than to imply that those supporting the move have some malicious intent. -- tariqabjotu 21:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Some people have apparently launched a campaign to harrass editors who argue that we follow Wikipedia policy (such as BLP) in this article and its talk page. This is indeed a very grave example of real life harrassment of an editor. I also note that some editors have resorted to filing false reports against editors who argue that we need to follow MOS:IDENTITY and BLP and who call out transphobic comments (such as trans people being like dogs), in an apparent attempt to silence them, misrepresenting and falsely attributing comments, all while this talk page contains incredible amounts of BLP violations and hate speech, such as comparisons of transgendered people to dogs or insane people. I would not be surprised if the media eventually catched up with everything that has been going on here. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:32, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It has already been pointed out many times on this page that WP:BLP Does not apply as for the "campaign" accusing others of starting a war here is not productive. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- It has been claimed. With no apparent basis other than assertion - I really don't see how WP:BLP doesn't apply to a living bio. And it has repeatedly been found to apply to talk pages, of a living bio or not - David Gerard (talk) 00:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- What Knowledge, I'm sure, meant by
WP:BLP does not apply
was that neither name would violate the BLP policy. Whether that has truly been pointed out (proven) or just claimed is a matter of opinion, of course, but you certainly have done nothing to refute the suggestion. -- tariqabjotu 00:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- What Knowledge, I'm sure, meant by
- You haven't been topic-banned yet? -- tariqabjotu 00:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- No of course not, and I notice that you make yet another personal attack on an editor, thereby making it clear that it is you, if anyone, who needs to be topic banned. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Tariqabjotu I find it interesing that you did not learn from harassment you previously received when others were outing your real life identity, since you above appear to be negating someone simply because of a content dispute. Dissapointing. Pass a Method talk 11:46, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. -- tariqabjotu 02:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
For reference, a) I don't remember having heard of this character before, b) the correspondence took a much nastier turn subsequently and c) this was in the context of a very unpleasant doxxing of my userpage a few hours earlier by User:67.40.213.213. (Josh immediately reverted it, but I didn't notice it for over an hour and had to revdel and put in the oversight request myself, which also didn't help!) Morwen (talk) 13:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Edit requests, minor
If I understand the sentence correctly, it should be "when the second wife's son from a previous relationship" instead of "when the second wife's son by a previous relationship", right? (emphases by me)
À propos "relationship": "Manning told Lamo in May 2010 that she had developed a relationship with Assange" – to me, that sounds ambiguous (and therefore confuses the reader) and should be either added to ("working relationship"?) or reworded.
There are many other small things that need fixing or tweaking (and I'm not even referring to the can of worms that is the pronouns debacle), so when is this article going to get unlocked again? – ὁ οἶστρος (talk) 14:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Done by someone. Space simian (talk) 03:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Styling issue: quote marks in blockquote
Please undo this good-faith edit; per its documentation, and HTML standards, {{blockquote}} does not take quote marks. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Done by someone. Space simian (talk) 03:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Encyclopedic Content
I am somewhat confused as to the reason behind referring to Bradley/Chelsea Manning as she. Manning is still a male as is defined by existing sources, including Wikipedia's own articles, such as Male and Man. Physically, Manning is still producing sperm and has male genitalia. The pronoun he is known to refer to males and referring to Manning as [[She|she] discredits the encyclopedia nature of Wikipedia in an effort to be politically correct. WP:IAR instructs us to ignore all rules in an effort to improve Wikipedia; if that is taken into account, MOS:IDENTITY does not necessarily apply. Wikipedia is first and foremost an encyclopedia. It should be based on fact primarily, before political correctness. In my mind, the discussion on this page has gone into the weeds. Scientifically, Manning is male. When Manning does undergo a physical change, it would then be prudent to change the pronoun usage; until then, it seems that we are pandering to the will of a criminal and public opinion instead of writing fact-based articles. -- Steven Williamson (HiB2Bornot2B) - talk ▓▒░ Go Big Blue! ░▒▓ 17:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is an entire Talk Page worth of comments (above) arguing the opposite point. Liz Read! Talk! 00:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is nice to know I am not alone in saying that Wikipedia should not be taking a WP:POV stance here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:23, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Especially since WP:NPOV is one of the three core policies, which gives it more weight than the Manual of Style. -- Steven Williamson (HiB2Bornot2B) - talk ▓▒░ Go Big Blue! ░▒▓ 18:09, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- So basically you want to ignore all rules to promote your opinion that Manning is male. How does that help the encyclopedia? Sounds a recipe for seriously damaging wikipedia to me. Calling Manning him or naming the article Bradley is what is a POV violation, putting the views of certain wikipedia editors first, even to the extreme of ignoring all rules to do so. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talkcontribs 18:33, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Reading the comment above, it had a somewhat rude tone to it, but I'm sure I misread it. I'm not talking about my opinion here... I'm simply stating that the scientific definition of male is that it is the gender of a species that produces sperm. I am just confused as to why we would ignore definitions of terms to facilitate someone's self identification, when it comes at the price of fact-based information. As far as his name, we can call him whatever he would like to be called, but for now, no matter how you spin it, he still has male parts and is by definition a man. -- Steven Williamson (HiB2Bornot2B) - talk ▓▒░ Go Big Blue! ░▒▓ 04:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- So basically you want to ignore all rules to promote your opinion that Manning is male. How does that help the encyclopedia? Sounds a recipe for seriously damaging wikipedia to me. Calling Manning him or naming the article Bradley is what is a POV violation, putting the views of certain wikipedia editors first, even to the extreme of ignoring all rules to do so. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talkcontribs 18:33, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Steven. It is common practice to refer to a transgendered woman (which Manning is now revealed to be) using their pronouns of choice, in this case, "she". This is irregardless of any physical attributes, hormones, surgery, etc, as the pronouns refer to the gender identity of the person, not their biological sex. Sue Gardner posted a very nice summary of this yesterday to this page, you can check the logs and read it above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Especially since WP:NPOV is one of the three core policies, which gives it more weight than the Manual of Style. -- Steven Williamson (HiB2Bornot2B) - talk ▓▒░ Go Big Blue! ░▒▓ 18:09, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Steven, as someone else said, our society has come to the conclusion that gender has varying levels of identification. We can say that someone is physically male while also saying that they emotionally and mentally identify as a woman. It does not harm Wikipedia to use the subject's preferred identification in our reference of them. Especially in an article like there where her change is well documented because it will be written into the article. Resisting her is the real POV pushing only because there is little harm to the subject by using her identified gender and more harm emotionally by not using it. The real question is what proper name to use for the time being. Various arguments have ranged from similar to yours, to use her legal name, and use the name used by sources currently the most. That's what the above RFC seeks to solve.--v/r - TP 19:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is statement is incorrect and extremely weak, for two reasons. One, "our society" invokes an ambiguous concept; exactly which society is being referred to is undefined. Moreover, it is my understanding that Wikipedia is supposed to respresent a global perspective, not the perspective of any one society. There can be no doubt that the vast majority of people around the world (of whom Western people only make up 1/8 at best) have not "come to the conclusion that gender ..." Two, American society itself has not accepted on a widespread basis, by any measure. The mere fact that debate exists shows that this statement is incorrect. If you can refute this, do so, although the possibility of being successful is highly unlikely. GrimmC (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with this. The Arab world outsizes and outnumbers the western world, and they definitely do not share this view on transgenderism. Whose "society" is Wikipedia supposed to represent? --benlisquareT•C•E 08:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Completely wrong. As of 2008, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except for Thailand. It is the West who are traditionally more censorious of people's gender than Asia or the Middle East. You might be confusing gender identity with sexual identity. 7daysahead (talk) 10:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, Iran is not part of the Arab world... StAnselm (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Completely wrong. As of 2008, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except for Thailand. It is the West who are traditionally more censorious of people's gender than Asia or the Middle East. You might be confusing gender identity with sexual identity. 7daysahead (talk) 10:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with this. The Arab world outsizes and outnumbers the western world, and they definitely do not share this view on transgenderism. Whose "society" is Wikipedia supposed to represent? --benlisquareT•C•E 08:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is statement is incorrect and extremely weak, for two reasons. One, "our society" invokes an ambiguous concept; exactly which society is being referred to is undefined. Moreover, it is my understanding that Wikipedia is supposed to respresent a global perspective, not the perspective of any one society. There can be no doubt that the vast majority of people around the world (of whom Western people only make up 1/8 at best) have not "come to the conclusion that gender ..." Two, American society itself has not accepted on a widespread basis, by any measure. The mere fact that debate exists shows that this statement is incorrect. If you can refute this, do so, although the possibility of being successful is highly unlikely. GrimmC (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- The view that Manning is a criminal who deserves his punishment rather than a hero who committed illegal acts for the greater good is POV. Wikipedia is and ought to be neutral with regard to that contentious issue. MOS:IDENTITY is the policy regarding gender identities of transgender people in Wikipedia articles and was arrived at after much deliberation and debate. You offer no compelling reason to reject it, other than arguing in favor of using biological gender instead of gender identity, which is the exact opposite of Wikipedia's current policy. If you wish to change MOS:IDENTITY, you can petition to change that policy. WP:IAR may tell you to ignore all rules when trying to "improve" Wikipedia, but one person's idea of "improving" things is another person's idea of "ruining" things. WP:IAR only applies to things that are non-controversial, and this is DEFINITELY controversial. --Yetisyny (talk) 21:15, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure he committed a crime. By that alone, he is a criminal. I just believe we as editors on what I feel is a very worthwhile endeavor should remember to be encyclopedic in nature. By that, I believe we should hold true to what terms mean. I understand your point; I respectfully dissent, but I offer my thanks. -- Steven Williamson (HiB2Bornot2B) - talk ▓▒░ Go Big Blue! ░▒▓ 04:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- How many times do people have to say it, MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline, not policy The first sentence of it says to refer to policies. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:54, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Guidelines are part of the Wikipedia rulebook, and do still have to be followed and respected unless there's a compelling reason to make an exception. Can you come up with a reason nobody's heard before as to why this situation might be different from other MOS:IDENTITY matters that have come up in the past? (I'm willing to bet you can't, just for the record.) Bearcat (talk) 00:34, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Referring to her by male pronouns instead of female ones is itself a POV stance. So the only strictly NPOV way to handle it is to respect the individual's right to define themselves, and to accept the fact that whether you understand it or not, gender dysphoria is a real, recognized medical phenomenon with real, recognized symptoms and a real, recognized etiology, whose only known cure is for the person to adopt the new gender identity. Bearcat (talk) 21:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're exaggerating a bit here Bearcat. I believe in some cases, gender dysphoria can be managed through altered presentation, not a complete switch to a new gender identity, There is a spectrum of dysphoria and of workable solutions to it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's less difference between "adopt the new gender identity" and "altered presentation" than you seem to think there is. Altering one's gender presentation is a form of adopting the new gender identity; I didn't imply that full surgery was the only option. Bearcat (talk) 01:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're exaggerating a bit here Bearcat. I believe in some cases, gender dysphoria can be managed through altered presentation, not a complete switch to a new gender identity, There is a spectrum of dysphoria and of workable solutions to it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Dates
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Why are the dates still being listed in British format as opposed to American format? Is there some valid reason for doing so? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 23:46, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not totally up-to-speed, but maybe Manning has identified as British.
- This is a joke, by the way. Formerip (talk) 00:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Joseph, the dates are currently in DMY format (which is international, not only British); someone changed some of them to MDY recently, but left most of them, so I changed them back to make the article consistent. Once the move request is closed and the talk page is quieter, I will post an RfC asking which date format people prefer. Discussion here. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. This is a story that generates from, and concerns, the United States. Therefore, I thought that the MOS dictates that the American format be used. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Edit Request: MOS:IDENTITY note on Talk page be removed
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The MOS:IDENTITY note near the top of this talk page expresses a clear bias as its application to this article is obviously a matter of opinion. I request that it be removed until discussion regarding the page move/pronoun usage has ended. IFreedom1212 (talk) 01:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is policy, and its application to this page is indisputable. An element of the move discussion is the question of whether this policy favors (or requires) a change to the title of the article. I see no evidence that the existence of this tag has had any influence on the opinions expressed in this discussion, and therefore see no reason to change the status quo. bd2412 T 01:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The applicability of MOS:IDENTITY is the entire reason there is a dispute though. Or am I missing something... IFreedom1212 (talk) 02:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Freedom, right now it is being discussed if or if not MOS:IDENTITY applies, throwing a notice at the top and saying it does is not going to be helpful. I have no objections to it being restored though once the move discussion is closed pending the move outcome. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:06, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Non-application would also be a biased matter of opinion. So where does that leave us? With the indisputable fact that gender dysphoria really is a real thing for objectively real whether you like it or not, that's where. Bearcat (talk) 02:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well I'm not suggesting that we put a note that says it does not apply. So just removing the note would be the neutral solution. GD is obviously disputable. I'm disputing your alleged 'fact' that Bradley Manning is suffering from anything other than being a traitor. IFreedom1212 (talk) 02:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your POV with regards to gender dysphoria is a fringe theory that has been widely rejected by medical science. So no, GD is not "obviously disputable." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Let it be, everyone has their own opinions, lets focus on on other things rather than worry about this right now. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Everyone has their own opinions" - and yet only relevant, well-supported opinions are included in Wikipedia articles. The claim that gender dysphoria is not real is not a relevant, well-supported opinion. It is a fringe theory rejected by reliable medical sources. Good day, sir. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Everybody has their own opinions, true; however, not everybody is entitled to equal respect for their opinions. Thinking that you know better than documented medical science, for example, does not make your opinions on those issues worthy of any serious consideration. Bearcat (talk) 02:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Let it be, everyone has their own opinions, lets focus on on other things rather than worry about this right now. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're certainly entitled to your opinion that gender dysphoria is disputable. But until medical science agrees with you, you're not entitled to expect Wikipedia to favour your POV over the documented facts. Bearcat (talk) 02:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your POV with regards to gender dysphoria is a fringe theory that has been widely rejected by medical science. So no, GD is not "obviously disputable." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well I'm not suggesting that we put a note that says it does not apply. So just removing the note would be the neutral solution. GD is obviously disputable. I'm disputing your alleged 'fact' that Bradley Manning is suffering from anything other than being a traitor. IFreedom1212 (talk) 02:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I concur. This template is at the top of dozens of talk pages. We have oodles of reliable sources which refer to Manning as a transgender woman now, that is really not under dispute, and past consensus has determined which pronouns should be used in that case (note that it's entirely possible to be both a transgender woman, and "biologically" male.) In addition, normally "local" consensus cannot override broader community consensus, unless there is a good reason to IAR. If you have issues with the pronouns, my suggestion would be to join the discussion at MOS:IDENTITY. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have restored the template. The fact that Manning is a self-identified transgender woman is not a matter of opinion. Whether MOS:IDENTITY should be controlling as to the title of the article is a matter of debate, but that does not implicate the template as "biased." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:10, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- leave it off I've changed my mind. This template is causing too much consternation. Let's leave it off pending the move request. It's been on and off, so I'd rather not debate this further. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
This notice has been out of place almost the entire move discussion thus far, why now are people making a huge deal about it and where is the consensus for it's inclusion, doesn't this come first if something wants to be added? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have removed it, as the entire crux of this debate is the conflict of a Manual of SAtyle guideline vs. a policy on Article Names. To have one "side", as it were, appear at the top as some warning that it "must" be adhered to is unfair and damaging to the open debate we're having here. Tarc (talk) 02:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Update: Well, I thought I had, but it seems others did and edit conflicts and all that. NorthBySouthBaranof in particular, you really need to get ahold of your reverting, as when you try to restore the tag (wrongly, IMO), you are also blowing away comments in another topic. MediaWIki isn't really all that robust when it comes to handling edit conflict,s so take extra care on high-traffic pages that what you're editing is what you mean to. Tarc (talk) 02:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
NOT a Good Article
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Not done Question answered, the consensus is to wait until a later date for a reassessment. Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Can we remove the "Good Article" tag at the top? There are clearly a large number of people that have multiple issues with the article. There is clearly a large amount of debate over what should(n't) be included, what should(n't) be removed, and what is(n't) factually (in)correct. It's clearly not a good article yet. --Lacarids (talk) 02:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- For reference, a recent discussion: Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Chelsea Manning/1. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 02:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Question
What do we do in other cases where a biographic topic announces a Name change? E.g. Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali, Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam, Prince/Symbol/formerly known as, Sean Combs/Puff Daddy/P. Diddy. Is a transgender name change different from other types of name change? If so why?User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Some here have argued, more or less, exactly that - as soon as a TG person announces a new name, we should rename the article (I disagree). In other cases, like Cat Stevens, etc, I believe it is usually commonname and other WP:AT considerations that apply. You can read the Cat Stevens talk page, to see the arguments made there - there are regular move requests, but they don't succeed. There was a discussion to change the article titling policy with a special exception for TG people, but I've just temporarily closed that discussion by request until this move request happens. This will be precedent-setting I believe, so whether an exception will be made for trans-people in the future to our regular article titling policies (based on BLP/MOS:IDENTITY concerns) is really the matter of debate above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it would be a mistake to let the above discussion set a precedence since it wasn't handled correctly by the involved admins and consequently a lot of the discussion and !votes has focused on that, not on policy with regard to transgender persons. Space simian (talk) 02:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not to mention that some comments are obviously motivated by strong feelings about Manning, so basing a general policy on how to treat transgender blp titles on this discussion isn't a good idea. Space simian (talk) 04:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it would be a mistake to let the above discussion set a precedence since it wasn't handled correctly by the involved admins and consequently a lot of the discussion and !votes has focused on that, not on policy with regard to transgender persons. Space simian (talk) 02:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I believe the main difference is that the use of a previous name associated with the wrong gender can be perceived as offensive in the latter case. Space simian (talk) 02:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Fundamentally, each case does have to be evaluated on its own merits. Cassius Clay → Muhammad Ali, for instance, took place long before Wikipedia ever existed, so by the time we had an opportunity to write an article about him at all he was already far better known as Muhammad Ali and that was therefore the title of choice. Prince also changed to the symbol before we existed, and then changed back to Prince before we ever actually had to worry about how to handle that can of worms either. Diddy, on the other hand, has his article at Sean Combs, since he's known well enough by that name that we can safely avoid the problem of his ever-shifting stage names entirely. Metta World Peace was moved to his current name soon after his name change. At Cat Stevens, however, the issue that ultimately carried the day is that he has almost no public profile whatsoever under his current name. We've also had notable women whose articles got moved right away following the name change that accompanied their marriage or divorce, and other notable women whose articles didn't. But the thing is that each case is different, raising its own issues and its own considerations, and therefore there isn't and can't be a single blanket rule that applies consistently to all possible name changes.
- Normally when it comes to a transgender person, however, we have always moved the article as soon as possible. See Chaz Bono and Laura Jane Grace for two other examples where this has come up in the past. (We did admittedly wait for some added sources on Grace, but the decidiing issue in that instance ended up being that there was initially some ambiguity about whether "Grace" was her last name or a second middle name which was still followed by "Gabel". The article still did get moved as soon as we could clarify that properly, and there was never any consensus to accept the position that having been previously better known as "Tom Gabel" meant we should keep her article there any longer than we absolutely had to. Bono, on the other hand, got moved right away — it sparked the same crapstorm we're seeing here, admittedly, but that didn't result in any consensus to overturn.) The core issue is that when it comes to a transgender person, it is fundamentally disrespectful and offensive and transphobic to use anything other than their chosen name — and WP:NPOV forbids us from being any of those things. So in the case of a transgender person, our practice and precedent has always been to move the article right away (or as soon as feasibly possible if there was a quality-of-sourcing reason to hold off), but in different situations there can be different practices. Bearcat (talk) 04:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with what Bearcat says. The issues that I see with this article that is dividing everyone:
- The subject satisfies notability condition prior to the publicizing of the subject's wish;
- The subject's wish, if carried out, may cause confusion among the readers;
- Additionally, the location of confinement does not lend itself to support the subject's preferred gender;
- The subject's wish indicated that all correspondence to the location of confinement should use the original (and the current legal) name.
- Because Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball, we cannot tell what will happen to Private Manning. We cannot tell whether Private Manning will remain newsworthy after the appeals, etc, are exhausted. Private Manning is definitely more notable prior to the gender/name change announcement. Of course, it's possible for an article to be written completely without gender-based pronouns (it is hard!), but I have mentioned above: There may be confusions among readers. (I'd imagine there's already confusion amongst the readers!). Whether the fact that the Military will not acknowledge Private Manning's preferred name (even after being discharged) matters remains to be seen. I will try not to rehash the discussions in sections above, but following Bearcat's examples, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be a reach to say, "Private Manning fulfilled WP:N prior to the announcement" → "Article should remain at legal name, but with contents written to satisfy MOS and other guidelines". I think this would be a compromise, but unfortunately, I personally don't think many people would take my position. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 08:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have come here from the AT talk page. The issue of name changes both for individuals, groups and organisations has been discussed in detail many times on the AT talk page as will be seen if a search is done on Muhammad Ali on those archives. This position is simple. Wikipedia should give more weight to third party reliable sources after the subject of the article announces a name change. This is covered by a sentence in the WP:AT policy in the section "Use commonly recognizable names" (WP:COMMONNAME) "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change". This wording also covers the instance were and individual or organisation changes name but it is ignored or an alternative is used in third party reliable sources. Eg The artist formerly known as Prince" was far more common than the symbol that he used. Using this formula of recently published reliable sources, fits in neatly with rest of COMMONNAME which does not follow official names but it does allow for flexibility needed to follow the principles of COMMNNAME when a name change takes place. -- PBS (talk) 08:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Edit Request: remove the interpreted self-diagnosis of gender-whatever
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The article currently reads: "Manning was raised as a boy, but stated that she had suffered from gender identity disorder since childhood.[3]" Where citation 3 is Manning's recent statement claiming to be 'Chelsea.' While gender disorders may have some medical literature to validate them, there is nothing that objectively validates a diagnosis that Manning has had gender identity disorder since childhood. This is for two reasons:
- One, Manning cannot diagnose himself. He is not a doctor or a healthcare professional. His statement was subjective and not objective. Wikipedia should not present his alleged gender identity disorder as an objective fact.
- Two, Manning did not specify any one particular disorder. He said he has felt this way since childhood. Therefore it is only through editorial assumption that Manning has had gender identity disorder since childhood.
- Three, his statement was vague. "Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible." 'The way I feel' is not the explicit declaration of "I have had gender identity disorder since I was a little girl/boy."
Unless a reliable source can be presented that objectively verifies this claim (such as a diagnosis from his childhood by a psychiatrist,) this statement should be removed. IFreedom1212 (talk) 03:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't work that way. It is verifiable that Manning has made the statement, which has been published in reliable sources. It is, therefore, perfectly acceptable and normal for Wikipedia to republish that assertion. You have no evidence to suggest that Manning's statement was not based upon diagnoses by medical professionals. For you to impute that it isn't is nothing more than unsourced speculation. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but to be more accurate, perhaps the sentence should be "Manning was raised as a boy, but stated that she felt and exhibited symptoms of gender identity disorder since childhood.[3]" (change in italics). Otherwise, I agree with NorthBySouthBaranof. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed, that's a good way of putting it, and I have made that change. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- But to say that Manning 'felt like he had gender identity disorder' would be a speculation beyond the words in his statement. He was not that explicit in his statement therefore Wikipedia should not be so explicit as to finger out a particular disorder either. IFreedom1212 (talk) 03:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's an acceptable editorial paraphrase of the meaning of her statements. There are also reliable sources reporting that Manning has been diagnosed with gender identity disorder. See, for example, [LiveScience, NYTimes, etc. Her self-identification of understanding past symptoms is not subject to debate unless you have access to medical records which disprove them.
- These had not been cited before. The wording is more appropriate now that there are verifiable citations to support the statement. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- If a child is diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 12, that doesn't mean that child didn't exhibit symptoms of ADHD at the age of 8, or didn't have ADHD at the age of 8. It just means that disorder went undiagnosed. It is Manning's contention that she has suffered from the symptoms of GID since childhood. You literally have no way of disproving that contention. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:39, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's an acceptable editorial paraphrase of the meaning of her statements. There are also reliable sources reporting that Manning has been diagnosed with gender identity disorder. See, for example, [LiveScience, NYTimes, etc. Her self-identification of understanding past symptoms is not subject to debate unless you have access to medical records which disprove them.
- Yes, but to be more accurate, perhaps the sentence should be "Manning was raised as a boy, but stated that she felt and exhibited symptoms of gender identity disorder since childhood.[3]" (change in italics). Otherwise, I agree with NorthBySouthBaranof. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- That she was suffering from gender identity disorder is not a new thing; it had been discussed many times before, including by Manning with a counsellor several years ago, the army, and Adrian Lamo. See her chat with Lamo: "im an army intelligence analyst, deployed to eastern baghdad, pending discharge for 'adjustment disorder' in lieu of 'gender identity disorder'. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Also, please read MOS:IDENTITY and use the appropriate pronouns. This is not the first time you have been asked to do this. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- No. There is plenty of discussion on why male pronouns should be used. Also, PVT Manning and I are both still members of the service and are bound by military regulations regarding how to address soldiers. AR600-20 AR600-8-104 AR600-8-14 etc. I also just disagree on a fundamental level. IFreedom1212 (talk) 03:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- She was discharged. Does military code require you still address dishonorably discharged people in that manner? EvergreenFir (talk) 04:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is not the military, IFreedom1212. This is an article on Wikipedia, where you are expected to conform yourself in accordance with Wikipedia's policies, customs, and norms. Plenty of editors here are long-serving military, including myself. How about you check your indignation at the door and follow the rules? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 04:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I used that ARs as a reference to show that clearly there are different stances on how he should be addressed. The misconstrued application of wikipedia guidelines is not enough to convince me that Bradley Manning is a "she." And I'm not going to call him a 'her' just to make a convicted felon feel good about himself. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is not the military, IFreedom1212. This is an article on Wikipedia, where you are expected to conform yourself in accordance with Wikipedia's policies, customs, and norms. Plenty of editors here are long-serving military, including myself. How about you check your indignation at the door and follow the rules? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 04:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Then use "Pvt. Manning". Feel free to point me to the discussion on why we should call Manning "he", but the Wikipedia standard (as well as the standard in most professional and journalistic organizations) is to use the pronoun the person requests. To not use it is insulting at a minimum. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Talk:Chelsea_Manning#MOS:IDENTITY Not to mention, calling him Bradley goes hand in hand with using male pronouns. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Which is why the page does not call her "Bradley". MOS:IDENTITY is pretty clear about this: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions." You do not need a legal name change or surgical procedures to be called by your desired pronoun and name. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's clearly a large disagreement about this. I'm not going to start calling him a "she" just because you want me to. When a consensus on the matter is reached and a decision is made then there will be a clearer answer here. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're free to do so if you wish — but you do not get to claim freedom from the possible consequences of that decision, such as the potential of being temporarily or permanently editblocked if you cross the line into uncivil, attacking or disruptive behaviour. Just be aware that there is thin ice on the lake that you're skating on — you're not right on it yet, but you're not as far away from it as you might like to think you are either. So I'd advise caution. Bearcat (talk) 04:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, the disagreement here is about the article title. Even if the article is moved back to the title of "Bradley Manning," Wikipedia will still refer to her as female. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well hell, then how do I go about formally suggesting that the page be reverted to the correct male pronouns? If the page is reverted to Bradley then that would only make sense. I thought that discussion was already ongoing but if it's not then I'd be obliged if we could begin that conversation. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- IFreedom1212, go to the "talk page" of our manual of style and propose a change to the section titled Identity. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- 50 feet closer to that thin ice. Bearcat (talk) 04:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is this seriously going to be discussed again? You've edit warred and been blocked over this matter already and it's time to stop beating the pronoun horse. I, JethroBT drop me a line 05:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well hell, then how do I go about formally suggesting that the page be reverted to the correct male pronouns? If the page is reverted to Bradley then that would only make sense. I thought that discussion was already ongoing but if it's not then I'd be obliged if we could begin that conversation. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's clearly a large disagreement about this. I'm not going to start calling him a "she" just because you want me to. When a consensus on the matter is reached and a decision is made then there will be a clearer answer here. IFreedom1212 (talk) 04:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Which is why the page does not call her "Bradley". MOS:IDENTITY is pretty clear about this: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions." You do not need a legal name change or surgical procedures to be called by your desired pronoun and name. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- She was discharged. Does military code require you still address dishonorably discharged people in that manner? EvergreenFir (talk) 04:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- No. There is plenty of discussion on why male pronouns should be used. Also, PVT Manning and I are both still members of the service and are bound by military regulations regarding how to address soldiers. AR600-20 AR600-8-104 AR600-8-14 etc. I also just disagree on a fundamental level. IFreedom1212 (talk) 03:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not in the business of second-guessing or factchecking people's statements about themselves, and has no way of being able to access Manning's private medical records anyway. So her own statements about herself are the only possible source that even exists for us to use — and as SlimVirgin pointed out, this is not even new information about her; it's been fairly well known for a few years already that she has been in treatment for this, and therefore she almost certainly does have a proper medical diagnosis to back her up. Accordingly, her statements have to be taken at face value until such time as a reliable source actually publishes information to the contrary (which is unlikely to ever happen, frankly.) EvergreenFir's wording change was a wise one, but the information itself is simply not up for debate unless and until you can somehow prove that it's false, not vice versa. Bearcat (talk) 03:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- As I support using "he" in historical description of her military service, I support saying "Private Manning" in those descriptions as well. If "former Private Manning" is appropriate by military standards now, that would be acceptable for the overall description of her now. Wnt (talk) 08:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Great Work!
I just want to say you're all doing great work. (I've done very little here, but am proud to be among you.) Keep up the great work!Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 06:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, we will all be looking pretty stupid when this closes if the page is moved back to Bradley, since by now it is becoming clear RS is moving towards using Chelsea. So WP first prematurely switches to CM then after 7 days switches back to BM locking the page with that title for a period when it finaly has become clear it should be moved to CM. *sighs* Space simian (talk) 06:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, I'd like to see some evidence of the RS shift. What makes you say this? StAnselm (talk) 06:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, that is my impression after looking around for a while. Besides NBC, Huff Post, the Daily Mail, MSNBC and Slate mentioned earlier it looks like the New York Times, the Telegraph and the Guardian (among others) are beginning to use Chelsea. The Christian Science Monitor has a writeup on the subject:
"For now, at least, and until instructed otherwise by my editors, I’ll do what that source of all undergraduate wisdom – Wikipedia – has done: Refer to Manning as female."
(and if it is any indication, in my local (Scandinavian) duckpond all major news organizations have declared they will use Chelsea). Since it is the decent thing to do it is easy to predict more will follow, no? Space simian (talk) 10:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)- See, this is the problem. People are making the switch "because Wikipedia does so". Wikipedia should never be the first to spearhead a movement. This whole thing originally began as an admin powertripping problem, and the move was done without proper consensus-gathering, however the masses don't know that. All they know is that the All Mighty Wikipedia has made the switch, and therefore it's the correct thing to do. That very quote that you have posted confirms my suspicions. --benlisquareT•C•E 11:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia uses the same standards as the AP and APA. Other professional groups such as the AMA and AAP affirm their position to support transpeople and affirm their identity, which can be done by using appropriate pronouns. Wikipedia is in no way spearheading this. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- (ec) I smell a feedback loop. If we change back, then maybe some of the news sources will as well. I think we can strike CSM for this reason. And once again, this is the problem with the initial move - Wikipedia is not meant to be the trendsetter. But in any case, I don't think we can include the NYT either: the article says "Pfc. Bradley E. Manning (who now wants to be known as Chelsea)", while the caption has "Pfc. Bradley Manning, who now uses the name Chelsea". Moreover, as far as I can tell, it doesn't use any pronouns at all to refer to Manning. In other words, it hasn't made the shift. StAnselm (talk) 11:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- See, this is the problem. People are making the switch "because Wikipedia does so". Wikipedia should never be the first to spearhead a movement. This whole thing originally began as an admin powertripping problem, and the move was done without proper consensus-gathering, however the masses don't know that. All they know is that the All Mighty Wikipedia has made the switch, and therefore it's the correct thing to do. That very quote that you have posted confirms my suspicions. --benlisquareT•C•E 11:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, that is my impression after looking around for a while. Besides NBC, Huff Post, the Daily Mail, MSNBC and Slate mentioned earlier it looks like the New York Times, the Telegraph and the Guardian (among others) are beginning to use Chelsea. The Christian Science Monitor has a writeup on the subject:
- Well, I'd like to see some evidence of the RS shift. What makes you say this? StAnselm (talk) 06:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Anselm makes a good point. For the most part, the sources that refer to Manning primarily use Bradley. Just because they mention the name Chelsea in the article does not mean they have shifted to that name. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 13:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- That only applies to the NYT article, and the reason I mentioned that is because they are taking a step towards calling Manning Chelsea which was the original point: reliable sources are starting to favor Chelsea. The CSM article also mentions how NYT are reasoning which is why it was interesting aside from the mention of WP as inspiration. Space simian (talk) 14:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
User:Benlisquare. Can you tell me why you think that WP:RS trumps the fact that Manning has changed her name, and that it would be disrespectful and incorrect for us to continue calling her Bradley? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Quote: "and that it would be disrespectful and incorrect for us to continue calling her Bradley" - you see, this is the thing I don't understand, the "disrespectful" part. As an encyclopedia, what's more important, being respectful or laying down facts? Why don't we refer to the 14th Dalai Lama as "His Holiness" instead? Using his personal name in the lede is disrespectful, wouldn't you think? Why do we call North Korea's leader Kim Jong-un? If we were to have any respect for him, we would call him "The Brilliant Leader, General Kim Jong-un", since he requests to be called by such a name. The Korean Central News Agency uses that form officially, after all, as does the majority of North Korean print and broadcast media. What's with the double standard? We name Kim Jong-un based on his common English-language name, as used by the majority of English-language reliable sources. It is well established that people call the North Korean leader "Kim Jong-un" in English print media; it is not as established (I'm not saying "not established", I'm saying "not as established") yet that "Chelsea Manning" is the name that the English-language media mostly uses. --benlisquareT•C•E 13:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- If a reliable source said that someone issued a statement that they're Jewish and have been so since childhood, would we report the fact that they're Jewish in the article? Or would we say, "you're not Jewish unless you can prove you attend synagogue at least once a month"? Would it matter how many reliable sources reported on the Judaism statement? Stating that manning is still named bradley is simply incorrect. AgnosticAphid talk 14:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Ah. You seem to be describing servility or deference, submitting uncritically to the opinions or wishes of others. I'm referring to respect, recognition, the thing we all deserve. It's not being deferential to a person to call them by their chosen name, it's the least I would expect of a civilised person.
- To rephrase my question: since it is clear that Manning has changed her name, that this is a fact, what is the good; what would the benefit be in us continuing to call her by her former name? Would it not be both disrespectful and incorrect? I'd like to know whether you think it is true that she has changed her name, too. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- My personal opinion is, we shouldn't care that much about what Manning would like to be named w.r.t. the article title, (except on the pronouns), unless it's a close call in RS. If Manning announces a name change, and 99% of news sources stay with Bradley, even 6 months out, moving the article title would be ridiculous. What annoys me is the categorical approach some editors have, that suggests as soon as X announces Y, we MUST change the title IMMEDIATELY, irregardless of what sources do, or we are guilty of massive transphobia. I think it's more nuanced than that, and we need to look at what sources do, preferencing sources which appear after the announced name change. Now, most COMMONNAME arguments come down strongly on one side or another (i.e. at least an order of magnitude of difference), but there are some which are closer calls - when it is a closer call like that, then of course we should consider the subject's preference. The move from Cote d'Ivoire to Ivory Coast hinged in this question - do we follow the subject's preference, when COMMONNAME is fairly close, or do we go for the MOST common? Ultimately, it was decided to go with most common (a decision I disagreed with) -but if you're so concerned with respect, aren't you concerned with calling a country of several million people the official name of the country, when they have written letter after letter to governments and media to ask them to refer to them as Cote d'Ivoire?
- Finally, you use the phrase "call her by her former name" - but we mostly avoid this issue, as we don't *call* her Bradley anywhere in the article as far as I know (nor is there a plan to) - we call her Manning or "she". Luckily, she didn't change her last name, as that would have rendered things even more confusing. The article title IS NOT the NAME of the person, and by titling an article X we ARE NOT claiming this person is "named" X. This is long-standing practice, and we shouldn't change it just for this case. Finally, I think we should all recognize WHY this is being so heavily debated - the reason is quite simple: "COVERAGE IN RELIABLE SOURCES" - there are many people in the wiki who have had a net total of 5 articles written about them, ever. But Manning is different - Manning has been the subject of multiple, ongoing, front-page media coverage for SEVERAL YEARS, and is one of the more recognizeable news personalities of the past few years. As such, the preponderance of sources that refer to her as Bradley (and that, still, seem to continue to do so) weighs heavily in favor of making the title something a user will quickly and easily recognize, while accepting that this may slightly hurt the feelings of Manning herself. C'est la vie.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- To rephrase my question: since it is clear that Manning has changed her name, that this is a fact, what is the good; what would the benefit be in us continuing to call her by her former name? Would it not be both disrespectful and incorrect? I'd like to know whether you think it is true that she has changed her name, too. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Respect is not a goal here, Anthony; an encyclopedia is not a AA meeting or a therapy session. While we should not ever intentionally offend, sometimes offense is a byproduct of reporting the facts honestly, as you found out in the Muhammad image debate. Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to take a cue from actual journalists. From CNN;
Tarc (talk) 14:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)CNN's policy is to reference Manning with masculine pronouns since he has not yet taken any steps toward gender transition through surgery or hormone replacement therapy.
- In the Muhammad images debate I was, as you have been told, more than willing to create "necessary" offense. In fact, my preferred version of Muhammad would have without any doubt caused more offense than the present version. Because I actually believe in what you said here: sometimes offense is a byproduct of reporting the facts honestly. You've never understood my position, evidenced by the fact that you think you need to remind me of that principle.
- Respect is not a goal here, Anthony; an encyclopedia is not a AA meeting or a therapy session. While we should not ever intentionally offend, sometimes offense is a byproduct of reporting the facts honestly, as you found out in the Muhammad image debate. Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to take a cue from actual journalists. From CNN;
- I don't know why you're bringing up masculine pronouns. I'm talking to User:Benlisquare about what we call Manning, the proper noun. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your statement about the Muhammad case is not even remotely true, and we can look back on the reams and reams of text within those discussions where you argued to remove most of the images from the present article if you like. Not sure what you're trying to get away with here. As for pronouns, it is all part of the same topic; "he" and "Bradley" are the correct choices, until he legally and medically changes his current situation. Tarc (talk) 16:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Here I describe my preferred image arrangement. The two images in the Western reception section were both more offensive than all the images in the current article combined. Take this somewhere else if you want to continue. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- To answer your question: Whatever the majority of English-language reliable sources use. At the moment, things are unstable due to sudden events, but once things start to settle down, we will eventually find out whether the masses have accepted "Chelsea" as the name, or if "Bradley" is still used by the majority. This is for the future, however, and at this stage, it would be a better idea in my opinion to maintain the status quo (the name previously used, Bradley) until a firm, obvious result between Chelsea/Bradley is found ("don't rock the boat"). Though some might disagree, Wikipedia has the power to sway public opinion, and this is partially why this discussion has become so contentious. Article titles based on WP:COMMONNAME are more easily calculated, and we have a definite mathematical/quantitative figure to justify the title by; it is much more difficult to "calculate" qualitative or abstract things such as "what the subject's wishes are", which is much less definitive and there is no standard to compare by, so that a fair judgment can be made. Not that long ago, the subject's wishes happened to be "Breanna", and who's to say that it won't change again? Such abstract concepts such as the "subject's will" are unpredictable, and this is why I prefer justifying things based on more solid, numbered concepts, that can be backed up with logic, not feelings. --benlisquareT•C•E 18:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Helpful input from Jimbo Wales
Jimbo Wales has commented on the case being discussed on User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Transphobia_on_Wikipedia (permanent), stating that "I support the move and change" (to Chelsea Manning), that "We ought to very strongly defer to how people identify themselves, but for various pedantic reasons, some editors insist on calling people by names that they very strongly reject. I consider that a BLP issue of some seriousness" and that "The point is that when something new happens, we update Wikipedia." Josh Gorand (talk) 11:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- ...and? Are you saying that we should follow his holiness' wishes? --benlisquareT•C•E 11:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Jimbo Wales and Sue Gardner have both recommended the current title, and cited good reasons for that. It seems clear there isn't a snowball's chance for this article being moved back. Josh Gorand (talk) 11:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Who is this Jimbo Wales guy? Do I need to know him? Is he a relevant person? Why is his opinion more important than others'? I bet he doesn't even bench press.
Who is this Sue Gardner lady? Do I need to know her? Is she a relevant person? Why is her opinion more important than others'? I bet she doesn't even bench press.
Why do I need to be concerned about these two people so much? Why are you repeatedly telling me that these people are so important? --benlisquareT•C•E 11:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Who is this Jimbo Wales guy? Do I need to know him? Is he a relevant person? Why is his opinion more important than others'? I bet he doesn't even bench press.
- Josh Gorand has been told at least a half-dozen times now that appeal to authority (and WP:Argumentum ad Jimbonem in particular) are not valid arguments to deploy in a debate, esp a contentious one. Mr Wales' and Ms. Gardner's opinions carry no more and no less weight than any of our own. Continuing to bring up a false assertion that their opinions must be weighted more when we clearly do not do such a thing could at some point be considered tendentious editing. Tarc (talk) 12:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have partially quoted Jimbo with this addition to an essay "The overwhelming majority of sources in 2006 described Pluto as a planet. The majority of sources called Victoria Beckham by her maiden name Victoria Adams at the time of her marriage. The majority of sources described East Timor as part of Indonesia in 2002. The point is that Wikipedia content should be updated.Pass a Method talk 12:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Jimbo's opinion is his opinion; within this discussion, we should accept his opinion. I am not saying that we should ignore what Jimbo has to say. We should take his points into account, but with equal weight to everyone else's opinion. My point is that comments such as "It seems clear there isn't a snowball's chance for this article being moved back" are counterproductive. --benlisquareT•C•E 12:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have partially quoted Jimbo with this addition to an essay "The overwhelming majority of sources in 2006 described Pluto as a planet. The majority of sources called Victoria Beckham by her maiden name Victoria Adams at the time of her marriage. The majority of sources described East Timor as part of Indonesia in 2002. The point is that Wikipedia content should be updated.Pass a Method talk 12:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- His opinion should account no more or less than anyone else's. He is just one editor, with access to the same policies and guidelines we have (most drafted completely independent of him). And, frankly, I read his comment as more of a "it's going to happen eventually, so what's done and is done" type of remark. I'm curious how he would have felt had the move request occurred with the article being at Bradley Manning. -- tariqabjotu 12:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Jimbo's opinion is in principle worth just as much as anyone else's, but in practice it's worth more because the quality of his arguments is usually a lot higher compared to that of a random editor. That's why a notification here that Jimbo has made a comment on this issue is worthwhile. It's quite similar to many physicists wanting to read any new article by Hawking, just because the author is Hawking, while they would not have done so if the author had been John Doe and the article title had been the same. Count Iblis (talk) 13:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- We all have four legs around here, I'm afraid. Either Jimbo is the hands-on chief from ~2005 or he's the benevolent symbolic leader of 2013. You can't pick and choose which Jimbo Era to visit like you're Doctor Who in his TARDIS. Tarc (talk) 13:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Jimbo's opinion is on the level of Newyorkbrad's. Someone we generally respect as a long standing community member who is often insightful and has more than once moved the project in a direction. However, we don't treat Jimbo as the final say in all things for two reasons: 1) Because this is a community project owned by no-one except the collective editors who donated their material under a certain license, and 2) Because Jimbo himself chose and instructed the community not to treat him as such.--v/r - TP 13:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
I wrote above that Wales and Gardner, who are knowledgable editors at this project, both have recommended that we use the current title, Jimbo citing BLP, Gardner arguing very convincingly citing MOS:IDENTITY. The point was to make readers of this talk page aware of a relevant discussion of the issue at hand where Jimbo and others offered valuable comments. Then we immediately get comments like "Who is this Jimbo Wales guy?" and "Are you saying that we should follow his holiness' wishes?" and even that their opinions on the issue "are not valid arguments" (sic!) and "I bet he doesn't even bench press", which look to me like a string of personal attacks on Jimbo (and Gardner). They are entitled to weigh in like everyone else, especially as they cite good rationales for their opinions. The snowball comment didn't refer to either of them, but rather to the fact that so many users agree BLP is the central issue at hand, and that most users who cite policy-based arguments oppose moving this article anywhere and support the current name. --Josh Gorand (talk) 13:34, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would suggest that, while many users quite understandably see this as a separate issue to a name change upon marriage, or renaming the Millennium Stadium or whatever else covered by WP:COMMONNAME, the situation is that policy does not. You can say "I see this as a BLP issue", but there's nothing in BLP that suggests not updating an article name in such cases is a violation. You can say MOS:IDENTITY suggests that the article title should reflect the subject's wishes, but it doesn't say it outright. This case sheds light on that omission, and it's a positive thing that it has done so. So instead of saying the article should be at Chelsea Manning because of implications and interpretations and what many people would consider to be "right", get the policy clarified so it reflects the views of these senior members and directly and clearly explains what is "right" in such cases. U-Mos (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You need to be aware that this is not the first time you have made similar comments, and given that in the past you have repeatedly made appeal to authority arguments, other people are well within their rights to suspect that you're trying to make another similar point. If your behaviour wasn't like it was in the past, perhaps you wouldn't have gotten such replies. We are often told to assume good faith, but I have seen the same authority-pandering rhetoric repeated at least fifteen times from you; would you really think that I'd still be able to treat you in a completely different manner? It's kind of like The boy who cried wolf. --benlisquareT•C•E 14:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The editor is perfectly entitled to put the views of others before us here, in debate. It is not some fraudulent rhetorical practice - it is perfectly legitimate and an essential part of most good debate. You may be confusing the editor's behaviour with the logical fallacy, appeal to authority. I don't see Josh appealing to authority there, at all.
- Do not attack editors for engaging in on-topic free speech on an article talk page. If I see you tell people to shut up on an article talk page, ever again, I'll be asking for you to be indefinitely topic banned from article talk pages. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You are getting way out of line, mate. You have no reason to accuse me of "telling people to shut up", or threaten me with punitive action when I have done nothing wrong. You're essentially popping down into a discussion half-way through its progress (this discussion has been going on for many days now), ignoring everything that has occurred prior, and are making assumptions based on what you think is going on. This user has had a long history within this discussion of making inappropriate comments; yes, users are expected to assume good faith, but this has gone on over and over, and I honestly have little remaining patience. This particular instance might not have been the case, but it has happened in the past, which contributes to my earlier misjudgment. This user has made comments on this talk page, at ANI, at WT:MOS, on the German Wikipedia, and many other places of the provocative nature, linking Sue Gardner's position within the WMF to some kind of victory. Comments along the lines of "Sue Gardner agrees with me, why are we still discussing this? This debate is over!" are provocative in nature, and have appeared multiple times.
- Regarding Josh's statement "The snowball comment didn't refer to either of them", his original snowball comment wasn't specific or clear to begin with. He has gone "oh, but that wasn't what I meant! I honestly meant ____ instead!", which happens all the time and is somewhat understandable, but that doesn't mean that I was wrong to have interpreted that sentence in a different way. His clarification came after his original statement. To me, it sounded like he was making another similar comment like the ones he made before. In hindsight, he should have made his words more clear. Surely you're not going to say that this is a crime?
- Not to mention, my patience for this user has already been eroded by the various personal attacks this person has made earlier as well (everybody who does not agree with his opinion is "transphobic"). This user is unable to accept that people may have different viewpoints, and since that I have a different upbringing to this user, I cannot share his exact viewpoint, based on how I've grown up, what my local societal environment is like, and so forth. That's not to say that I cannot accept his point of view - I accept that he feels strongly for transgender issues. Everybody here has different points of view, and this is why we are discussing right now. I have not made any comments specifically shaming the points that pro-transgender people make. What I cannot accept is that he is adamantly unwilling to accept that there are people out there who do not match his walled garden view of the world.
- Ignoring the "transphobe" personal attacks for now, since this isn't central to what we are supposed to be discussing (and has already been discussed to death; see ANI and this talk page's archives), you cannot deny that this user has made numerous appeal to authority arguments in the past; if you bother to look down the rabbit hole, you will find them. Nowhere have I ever told anyone to "shut up", or driven people away to stop them from sharing their ideas. The most that I have done is express my dissatisfaction for the comments of some of the people here, that I find unnecessary. You should not be threatening me when you aren't making heads and tails of what has been going on for the past few days, and understanding how other editors actually feel. Please cease your confrontational attitude. --benlisquareT•C•E 17:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- User:benlisquare has a long history of making personal attacks and causing disruption on this page. His recent personal attacks against Jimbo Wales and Sue Gardner are completely unacceptable. The warning was completely justified. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Josh Gorand, I do not recommend responding to accusations of personal attacks by making further accusations of personal attacks. That just bogs us down in battlegrounding. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- User:benlisquare has a long history of making personal attacks and causing disruption on this page. His recent personal attacks against Jimbo Wales and Sue Gardner are completely unacceptable. The warning was completely justified. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Please don't discuss other editors' motives on this talk page. As far as I've seen, Josh has stopped. Could you please do the same? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email)
- I'm fine with anything. It's just that your threat kind of ticked me off a little. --benlisquareT•C•E 17:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're right, it was inappropriate, and I apologise. Also, I haven't read all of the above, but will do so before I resume barking orders. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Jimbo is just another editor for this discussion; however, his opinion is highly relevant because his volunteer job with Wikipedia involves a whole lot of dealing specifically with BLP issues, i.e. the famous people he meets. So he actually knows a lot more about, and has a lot more experience in, these issues than a random editor would. The same applies to Sue Gardner. Everyone here has four legs, but some have run a lot more marathons on them - David Gerard (talk) 15:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Four legs good, two legs better.Two kinds of pork (talk) 15:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- His opinion means nothing alone, we go by something called a consensus here on Wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, but has he legally changed his name? Has he undergone reassignment surgery? Could he (or anyone) identify as Sparkle Night, the magical Unicorn from Grey Gully and their wikipedia article change according? WeldNeck (talk) 22:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Pope Francis
First of all, the article is excellent and I want to commend everyone who has worked on it so far. I wanted to make a point here, in appeal to those center- or right-leaning users who find the article's gender renaming a bit "revisionist", "euphemistic" or "politically correct". The moment some men in a hierarchy decided that Jorge Mario Bergoglio would become leader of their Church and change his name and identity, our Wikipedia article for Jorge Mario Bergoglio was changed to Pope Francis. No debates, no controversy, no mention that non-Catholics still think he's just Jorge, because the title of Pope and the name of Francis is what he and his "circle" had decided he would be. It should be no different for Manning, and I say this as someone who usually frowns on excessive PC language or behavior. As for pronouns, they simply distinguish gender, and if the article's namesake explicitly wishes to identify as the other gender, that should certainly become part of our accommodation just as with anything else. – Crumpled Fire (talk) 15:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I really don't know why these poor comparisons keep coming up. Is there a misunderstanding of the COMMONNAME argument? Pope Francis was almost exclusively known as such in reliable sources, immediately upon election. There was no mention that non-Catholics still think he's just Jorge Mario Bergoglio, but non-Catholics don't call him that; to pretty much everyone in the world (except for, perhaps, his close circle of friends and acquaintances), he was known as Pope Francis. This is not the case here, as, days later, Manning is still being referred to as "Bradley Manning". -- tariqabjotu 15:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is another example of using the name appropriate for a given point in history. The body of the article starts off using "Bergoglio", then "Archbishop Bergoglio", then "Cardinal Bergoglio", then "Pope Francis", which is also what the lead paragraph uses (except for an initial bare "Francis" which is probably shrapnel from a long-festering edit war about whether to use titles of nobility in article naming...) Wnt (talk) 16:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, that just means that the journalists don't know their own standards. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:01, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Notice how that NY times article carefully balances: "Pfc. Bradley E. Manning (who now wants to be known as Chelsea)" - This both recognizes the desired new name, while simultaneously using the more recognizeable name for the reader's sake. There's a huge difference between a wikipedia article title and usage in running text, and an even bigger difference between running text of a NY times article vs. what you would call Chelsea to her face. Everyone is equating these three things as if they're all exactly equal, but they're not.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is another example of using the name appropriate for a given point in history. The body of the article starts off using "Bergoglio", then "Archbishop Bergoglio", then "Cardinal Bergoglio", then "Pope Francis", which is also what the lead paragraph uses (except for an initial bare "Francis" which is probably shrapnel from a long-festering edit war about whether to use titles of nobility in article naming...) Wnt (talk) 16:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Articles about popes are governed by Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy), which would override WP:COMMONNAME even if it were true that the Pope is best known to non-Catholics as Mr Bergoglio. - Cal Engime (talk) 17:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
MOS: Informing the reader
Despite the MOS guideline, or in this case because of the guideline, the he/she usage is certainly going to confuse a fair number of readers coming to this article. Perhaps that might change over time, certainly if Chelsea becomes the vernacular instead of Bradley. I removed the gender pronouns from the top,of the article until the part where It states Manning's "coming out". Would it be appropriate to add a reference to the MOS to let the reader know why "she" is being used instead of "he" instead of just leaving some of them scratching their heads?Two kinds of pork (talk) 15:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think an explanation would be very helpful. It would explain the topic so as to further public understanding. We discussed this previously (you might want to dig around in the archive), but some editors expressed concern that it would draw undue attention to the subject's gender identity as if to make her seem non-normal. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Suggestion re personal pronouns
I personally find it very confusing that all personal pronouns have been swapped from male to female, especially those detailing Pvt. Manning's childhood as a little boy. Can we make a consensus to label Pvt Manning as a boy up until the announcement to be female? I think a gender switch halfway through makes a little more sense than whitewashing everything as "she". thoriyan tlk - ctrbs 17:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Furthermore to this suggestion, Pvt Manning herself "requested, from this day forward to be referred to by the feminine pronouns" (per the original press release). It wouldn't be a violation of her wishes to refer to her by the male pronoun before Aug 23/13. thoriyan tlk - ctrbs 18:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Another statement from Manning's lawyer
On August 26, 2013, Manning's attorney David Edward Coombs and the Private Manning Support Network (formerly the Bradley Manning Support Network) jointly posted what they call "Additional clarification on PVT Manning's request." http://www.bradleymanning.org/featured/announcing-the-private-manning-support-network It reads in part:
- "While PVT Manning wants supporters to acknowledge and respect her gender identity as she proceeds into the post-trial state of her life, she also expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances. These instances include any reference to the trial, in legal documents, in communication with the government, in the current petition to the White House calling for clemency, and on the envelope of letters written to her by supporters. She also expects that many old photos and graphics will remain in use for the time being." (Boldface in original.)
It's unclear whether PVT Manning's expectation about continuing use of male name and pronouns represents her preference or merely an acknowledgement that old usages will persist. JohnValeron (talk) 18:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, I think it's rather clear. Manning expects male pronouns to be used because that is the reality of how the topic has been discussed in these contexts. I don't see any basis that Manning has changed her preferences based on the above statement. I, JethroBT drop me a line 18:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- GASP! Where is the army of editors jumping on the chance to go in and change all the pronouns in the articles? It looks like NONE of these changes have been made! Could it be that the users who were so quick to make the changes to the article when Manning "announced" he was a woman (as if that just makes it so) gave less than one flying fuck what Manning wants or expects, and were just looking for an opportunity to push their ridiculous advocacy position on a neutral encyclopedia? TUM TUM TUMMMMM! The plot thickens! Clinton (talk)
- Cjarbo2, please be aware that some users have cited what they believe to be policy arguments for the move to Chelsea, and that not all users may be "advocates" for social change. CaseyPenk (talk) 23:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- GASP! Where is the army of editors jumping on the chance to go in and change all the pronouns in the articles? It looks like NONE of these changes have been made! Could it be that the users who were so quick to make the changes to the article when Manning "announced" he was a woman (as if that just makes it so) gave less than one flying fuck what Manning wants or expects, and were just looking for an opportunity to push their ridiculous advocacy position on a neutral encyclopedia? TUM TUM TUMMMMM! The plot thickens! Clinton (talk)
Surely though (notwithstanding my statement below), Manning's own statement puts this entire debate to bed? If he says that he expects male pronouns to be used, then we can take it as implicit acceptance that his Wikipedia article will still refer to him as "he" and "Bradley". --The Historian (talk) 18:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- She asked for respect and acknowledgement of of her gender identity but said that she expected that the name Bradley and male pronoun would be used in various legal contexts. That is not inconsistent with her original statement asking people to use the female pronoun and new name except in official mail to the prison. I fail to see how this is earth-shattering or in any way determinative.AgnosticAphid talk 19:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Interesting. It does take the wind out of the sails of the "must use female names/terms now!" side of the debate a tad, but in terms of having a practical effect on the Wikipedia it probably amounts to little, since we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways. Tarc (talk) 19:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is that some people already are going by what he subject's personal preferences are. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The idea that, as Tarc puts it, "we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways," is downright bizarre. Why did Manning's Wikipedia article require an emergency sex-change operation in the first place? It wasn't because Manning underwent hormone therapy or surgery to alter his gender. It was solely because Manning, through his lawyer's appearance on the Today show, expressed a preference, and Wikipedia's doctors of political correctness sprang into action. JohnValeron (talk) 22:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- A person's gender identity is not conditional on completing the process of hormone therapy and surgery. Bearcat (talk) 22:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The idea that, as Tarc puts it, "we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways," is downright bizarre. Why did Manning's Wikipedia article require an emergency sex-change operation in the first place? It wasn't because Manning underwent hormone therapy or surgery to alter his gender. It was solely because Manning, through his lawyer's appearance on the Today show, expressed a preference, and Wikipedia's doctors of political correctness sprang into action. JohnValeron (talk) 22:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is that some people already are going by what he subject's personal preferences are. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, quite frankly, not everyone subscribes to that notion, and it is quite wrong of you and a handful of others to push your ideology onto people who hold a different opinion on the matter. There is simply no actual person named "Chelsea Manning" here. What we have is a man named "Bradley Manning" who wants to be called by this other name (and awhile ago it was reportedly "Breanna") and referred to as "she". That is all. That is the reality that the article should reflect, the policy of WP:COMMONNAME. Bradley Manning was a solider in the United States military. Bradley Manning was caught passing classified intel to unauthorized parties, convicted, and sentenced. After that, Bradley Manning decided to be called "Chelsea". That is how the flow of the article should be, these are all things that a man named Bradley Manning did, you can't just flick a switch and rewrite history to say "Chelsea Manning was convicted of violating the Espionage Act..." and so on. That just isn't historically accurate or truthful. When and if he legally changes his name, that is when the transition process of the article should begin. That all was simply way too soon. Tarc (talk) 23:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, as I've pointed out before, the problem with insisting on completion of the medical or legal processes as the standard for recognition of a transgender person's new identity is that those things are covered by privacy laws. Nobody but her and her lawyers has a right to access her legal records; nobody but her and her doctors has a right to access her medical records — which means that you're insisting on a standard which no reliable source will ever be able to properly verify whether or when she's successfully met them. It's an unattainable standard which a transgender person can never actually meet unless her privacy is consensually or non-consensually violated in a way that would still be an inadmissible source (e.g. a tabloid stealing her name change documents; somebody actually publishing an unauthorized photograph of her in the communal shower.) That's why it's not conditional on completing the process: there's no way that her completion of the process can ever be properly verified. Bearcat (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Tarc &John Valeron, you both appear to be pushing a fringe view which rejects the medical consensus. The position which Bearcat describes ert to gender identity is the consensus position of the medical profession: WPATH's SOC notes that:
- "gender dysphoria—broadly defined as discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth."[9]
- You are of course quite entitled to disagree, and there are many fringe views on these matters. However, if you want to misuse these discussions to push your own theories about transgenderism and the process of gender reassignment, please have the courtesy not to denounce those with mainstream views as pushers of ideology or "political correctness".
- If you insist on approaching the biographies of trans people with your own set of definitions, and insist on applying a standard which (as Bearcat illustrates) is unattainable, you are effectively demanding that Wikipedia should permanently reject the identities of trans people. That is a blatantly ideological position. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Tarc &John Valeron, you both appear to be pushing a fringe view which rejects the medical consensus. The position which Bearcat describes ert to gender identity is the consensus position of the medical profession: WPATH's SOC notes that:
- Well, as I've pointed out before, the problem with insisting on completion of the medical or legal processes as the standard for recognition of a transgender person's new identity is that those things are covered by privacy laws. Nobody but her and her lawyers has a right to access her legal records; nobody but her and her doctors has a right to access her medical records — which means that you're insisting on a standard which no reliable source will ever be able to properly verify whether or when she's successfully met them. It's an unattainable standard which a transgender person can never actually meet unless her privacy is consensually or non-consensually violated in a way that would still be an inadmissible source (e.g. a tabloid stealing her name change documents; somebody actually publishing an unauthorized photograph of her in the communal shower.) That's why it's not conditional on completing the process: there's no way that her completion of the process can ever be properly verified. Bearcat (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, quite frankly, not everyone subscribes to that notion, and it is quite wrong of you and a handful of others to push your ideology onto people who hold a different opinion on the matter. There is simply no actual person named "Chelsea Manning" here. What we have is a man named "Bradley Manning" who wants to be called by this other name (and awhile ago it was reportedly "Breanna") and referred to as "she". That is all. That is the reality that the article should reflect, the policy of WP:COMMONNAME. Bradley Manning was a solider in the United States military. Bradley Manning was caught passing classified intel to unauthorized parties, convicted, and sentenced. After that, Bradley Manning decided to be called "Chelsea". That is how the flow of the article should be, these are all things that a man named Bradley Manning did, you can't just flick a switch and rewrite history to say "Chelsea Manning was convicted of violating the Espionage Act..." and so on. That just isn't historically accurate or truthful. When and if he legally changes his name, that is when the transition process of the article should begin. That all was simply way too soon. Tarc (talk) 23:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
She has asked in very clear terms that "starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun." The new comment just recognises that sources using her former name will still exist. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Chelsea Manning. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |
"...expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances...These instances include any reference to the trial" This is clear cut. Pronouns and name usage must be reverted now regarding Bradley Manning in his pre-female-announcement life. I request that the page be edited so that the male pronouns are used before Bradley's announcement. I also request that the page use the name Bradley before his announcement. IFreedom1212 (talk) 19:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I somehow read the statement like three times and missed the apparent meaning of the "reference to the trial" part of it. It's true that maybe as Tarc said it "takes the wind out of the sails" of the one side to some degree. But really, before wasn't your position that what the person themselves wanted wasn't relevant? Do you suddenly think that we should defer to the subject's wishes? How does this statement change things, really? It doesn't really address the larger question of whether it is in fact accurate to use female pronouns in this situation, a question about which there can be a reasonable difference of opinion. AgnosticAphid talk 20:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Information from Manning's lawyer about pronouns and the photograph
I've obtained clarification of Manning's statement today from her lawyer, David Coombs, which I'm sharing with his permission. Regarding the pronoun, he wrote that the female pronoun should be used only for post-announcement material. I also asked about the current main photograph, and he said that Chelsea is proud of the photograph and would want it to be used until a better one becomes available.
I don't think we should rush to change the pronouns just yet. We should decide on the title first, for one thing. But I'm posting this so that we know what the lawyer's and Manning's preferences are. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:12, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think this carries weight to those who reply here saying "Well this is what manning wants so...." but thanks Slim for the clarification. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- My personal interpretation of the statement would lead me to the conclusion that "change all pronouns/names in events prior to August 22, 2013 to male/Bradley && differentiate between Chelsea/Bradley on events post August 22, in addition to restoring the title to Bradley" would be the neutral, proper way of interpreting it. (And I think it could be valid. But that's just me...) - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 01:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Food for thought
If reliable sources report on Manning in a way that is seemingly or actually transphobic, should we do the same? CaseyPenk (talk) 18:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
I do apologise about banging on about this, but Wikipedia:COMMONNAME does say this: "[Wikipedia] prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change." Since the majority of reliable sources stick with "Bradley" (for instance the BBC does so), then we are obliged to do so too. I note with, as far as I can see, Wikipedia:MOS doesn't seem to say anything on the matter. It should also be noted that Wikipedia:COMMONNAME derives from Wikipedia:TITLE. which describes itself as a Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia:MOS is described as a "guideline", so therefore, Wikipedia:COMMONNAME trumps Wikipedia:MOS twice - Wikipedia:MOS doesn't discuss article titles at all, whilst Wikipedia:COMMONNAME does, and secondly, Wikipedia:COMMONNAME is an official policy, whilst Wikipedia:MOS is not, so Wikipedia:COMMONNAME is therefore more important, more authoritative than, and deserves more weight than, Wikipedia:MOS --The Historian (talk) 18:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is at the crux of the debate. Some have said (notably Jimbo), that there is a systemic bias issue at play here. What's not clear to me is, should Wikipedia document and represent such systemic bias, or take a normative stance against it? This isn't easy, and requires editorial judgement (again, Jimbo made this claim) - tackling systemic bias is very hard, especially for an encyclopedia presumably written only on the basis of sources. Nonetheless, we aren't here to right great wrongs. If wikipedia was written in the 1910s, we would probably have had categories for "Negro writers" and so on - even if those creating the 1910s wikipedia felt that those words were archaic (see http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=negro+writer&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=). There's a continuum between "done in a way that addresses systemic bias", "progressive", and "activist". Where should we be, and what goes too far? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
And my point is that since WP:COMMONNAME trumps the MOS, and since WP:COMMONNAME dictates that we use the more recognisable name (Bradley, in this case), this article MUST be moved to Bradley Manning. --The Historian (talk) 19:39, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Manning is also more notable for having the name Bradley. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, "notable for" means "has an encyclopedia article because". Manning is notable for being a convicted criminal who leaked classified military documents while serving in the US military; Manning is notable while, not "for", having the name Bradley, and "while" has no bearing on anything one way or the other. Dead people were notable "while" they were alive, but that doesn't mean we don't update their articles to reflect the fact that they're not alive anymore. Bearcat (talk) 21:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- COMMONNAME has an allowance for legitimate exceptions written write into it. COMMONNAME also directly contains guidance on what to do in a name change situation; that guidance says that you base the move decision on sources written after the name change was announced, and many sources are shifting over. Bearcat (talk) 22:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Apparently transphobic can be used as stigmatization label even for people who just disagree with postmodernist perceptions of gender, indeed, those who lean more for biological determinism of the sexes. Transphobia seems pretty vague, varying from pure hatred towards transgender people from just preferring to use Bradley in this article. What you suggest, some form of moral policing I suppose, is utterly wrong. Who would determine what reliable sources are reporting in a way seemingly transphobic? Also, I believe there is a previous administrative action case of Wikipedians describing fellow editors asIslamophobic, because it's very close to a personal attack (especially as some people felt it concerns commenting another editor's mental state, an accusation of a medical phobia). In any case, it's not very good for the community that people are calling other editors -phobic or the other way "politically correct liberals". I'm sure disagreements can be solved without resorting to such self-righteous means. -Pudeo' 21:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Gender dysphoria is a real, recognized thing with real documented symptoms (an internal gender identity that doesn't match the physical sex of the body), real documented causes (a brain whose physical structures really do match those of the internal gender identity and not those of the body), and a real documented course of treatment (gender transition). It's not a "postmodernist perception"; it's a real, honest-to-gawd medical condition that actually exists, and is very well documented in medical literature. I don't even agree with every word I've ever seen written about gender either, but the basic existence of gender dysphoria is not a matter for debate. Bearcat (talk) 22:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The basic existence of gender dysphoria is a matter for debate just like evolution and gravity are matters for debate. To imply certanty and certan agreement, especially in sociological issues, is intellectually dishonest.CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sure, you're free to disagree with its existence if you want; you can even write an article on alternative theories of gender dysphoria if you want. But as long as the condition is recognized as legitimate by established medical science and verifiable in published medical literature, a biography of an individual person is not the place to wage a battle on whether medical science is right or wrong about the existence of the condition. Sure, there's a place to debate it — an article about a specific person who has been diagnosed with it is not that place. Bearcat (talk) 22:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The basic existence of gender dysphoria is a matter for debate just like evolution and gravity are matters for debate. To imply certanty and certan agreement, especially in sociological issues, is intellectually dishonest.CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Name
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Please put your opinion in the move discussion at the top of the page thanks. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:34, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
It is very well possible that Bradley is considering a name (and sex) change. But should we follow suit? Article names normally follow the name that is most known per Wikipedia:COMMONNAME. For instance Cat Stevens is not 'Yusuf Islam'. The name change isn't even official yet. So I suggest we move the tittle back to Bradley Manning.--Wester (talk) 20:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Come on now people
Really has nothing to do with article improvement. Tarc (talk) 23:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
What a bunch of nonsense. So, a man simply walks up, announces that, from now on, he wants to be addressed as a woman, and his name is now such and such. Seriously, is that how someone changes their gender? What about their citizenship? Marital status? Has everyone here been so cowed by BS terms like "transphobia" that we lost our marbles? WeldNeck (talk) 23:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC) |
What should have be done
Lock the article as it was, place a tag saying that the content might be out of date, and wait until everything's cleared up. It's not like there was really anything going on.
Hell, you can still revert and do it. Fix what was broken. --Niemti (talk) 00:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
But that's also for future instances of things like that.--Niemti (talk) 00:40, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
RFC related to unprofessional conduct
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List the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct.
- Guidelines:
- Policies:
I am someone who normally supports the open and free discussion of articles. Usually, editors are able to keep themselves composed, make the discussions relevant to the subject of the article, and are able to improve it. That notwithstanding, very little of the discussion here is on Manning. Most of the talk page discussion are 40+ users attacking each other on if they're transphobic or trolls. I'm a supporter of transsexual rights; but it's very counter intuitive for people to go as far as to accuse someone of hating transsexual people just because they have different opinions, even if they are against transexuals or vice versa. Besides that, a lot of people on both sides of the issues have used baiting and personal attacks which is especially problematic. This incivility needs to stop. Jimbo Wales has done nothing to discourage personal attacks and has still let both sides argue against each other. The only threads that have not been affected by this ridiculous unprofessionalism are the main survey and edit requests. Even a thread I made to try to combat this went into that type of territory and another one was ignored. Therefore, we need to discuss having the other sections not related to edit requests and the main survey archived so everyone can stop attacking each other. Discussion is a privilege; not a right and it can be removed when the community has been showed to not be deserving of it. --Thebirdlover (talk) 01:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- This should be speedily closed, there have already been unprofessional conduct discussions here which are now closed and on the admin board which are ongoing no need to start another one. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Comment I don't think this is an accepted use of the RfC process. RfCs (unless they are RfCs on individual users' conduct) are supposed to be about article content, which this is not about. I have no comment on the better avenue for addressing the issue you want addressed, but I will say any unmoderated discussion similar to this (with or without the RfC template) will just result in more of the problem -- mudslinging -- that you feel has consumed this talk page. -- tariqabjotu 01:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Closure of proposed move
There are 277 hits for "support" and 142 for "oppose" on this talk page. It will take a long time to close this. Is it really that important, and when will this be decided? Surfer43_¿qué_pasa? 01:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It'll be closed on Thursday. Patience, young grasshopper. (Also, the survey is actually about 150-115 support:oppose at the moment.) -- tariqabjotu 01:56, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- See the FAQ at the top of the page. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
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