Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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My account has been blocked

Dear Sir/Madam

I have a registered account from 2009 onwards. After a long time when I logged in to my account today... I see that I have been blocked and a message displayed

"It is suspected that the operator of this account has abusively used one or more accounts."

Can you please look into the matter.

Thank you Anoop — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoop4uall (talk • contribs) 06:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Your account isn't blocked - you wouldn't be able to post here if it was. Or are you referring to another account? If so, what is its name? AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The other blocked account is Anoop (talk · contribs), obviously. Fishface gurl (talk) 06:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Then again, that account is not blocked either, so I guess problem solved. Fishface gurl (talk) 06:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Anoop is a relatively common name, of Indian origin. That account may have nothing to do with the OP's. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

This account isn't blocked but there exists a cat of blocked accounts suspected to belong to this user: Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Anoop4uall. —SpacemanSpiff 06:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the speedy response. Actually I was referring to what Spaceman just mentioned above. When I login to my account, I see a message "It is suspected that the operator of this account has abusively used one or more accounts." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoop4uall (talk • contribs) 07:51, 25 October 2013 (UTC) The strange part is... I have no idea why those 5 account are linked to my account in the first place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoop4uall (talk • contribs) 08:05, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Because now inactive (since last May) admin CKatz blocked and tagged those accounts; given the SPI wikilink is red, I'm guessing they were so-called duck blocks (standard Ent rant goes here). I've cleared the tags and left CKatz a talk page message. NE Ent 10:31, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't hold your breath waiting on a comment, they haven't been active several months.--SKATER ^{T a l k} 10:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

NE Ent, please restore these tags for (at least) the duration of this discussion. You are making it a lot harder for other people to check this. While the tags shouldn't have included a redlink to the SPI (did Ckatz include this or was this a standard part of the tag?), suspected sockpuppets don't need a SPI. Considering that they edited wrt the exact same company, that the blocks came around the second edit from this SPA account (which was a mail to CKatz, the blocking admin), and that the blocked accounts include ones like User:Rajeev4uall, it looks to me to be a fairly clear WP:DUCK case, so I don't see why the tags should be removed. Socking and spamming should be fought against, not brushed under the carpet. Fram (talk) 11:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

• The issue appears to be that User:Anoop4uall has a notice that "It is suspected that the operator of this account has abusively used one or more accounts." It is easy to see why that suspicion occurred—this account made a single edit (Special:Contributions/Anoop4uall) in October 2009, then another edit to post "you've got mail" on user talk:Ckatz in February 2011. The issue appears to be based on AdvocateKhoj and its website, see the February 2011 blacklist discussion. Johnuniq (talk) 10:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

• FYI - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/AdvocateKhoj. GiantSnowman 11:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Your account isn't blocked and never has been. In 2009 you created the (perfectly valid} article AdvocateKhoj. Two years later some other accounts - Nikirai, Daddycoolboy, Abhishekraj12 and one similar to yours, Rajeev4uall - began spamming links to AdvocateKhoj into Indian legal articles. The admin Ckatz removed the spam and blocked these accounts as socks. It seems likely you were aware of this at the time, because your first and only interaction with Ckatz was to send them an email during the spam removal but before they tagged or blocked any of these spam accounts. Your email was also just before they tagged your userpage, and was your only edit in the 4-year period between 2009 and today.

Happy to believe you're not a sockmaster, and anyway the whole thing is ancient history. But I somehow doubt the claim that you just discovered all this today. Euryalus (talk) 11:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I had created this account so as to maintain the article AdvocateKhoj. However when it was blacklisted, I had shot an email to the admin who blacklisted it asking the reason for blacklisting. However, I never received any response. Since there was no purpose, I haven't logged in since... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoop4uall (talk • contribs) 11:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

So, we have established that you're not currently blocked. You have established that you created this account to maintain a specific article. It would be helpful to know which other accounts you have or have had - there are a few valid reasons for using alternate accounts ES&L 11:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

How would a user who hasn't edited for nearly a year and a half be aware that a certain site was blacklisted only 1 1/2 hour after the blacklisting happened, and more than 1 hour before the blacklisting admin edited the article for the first time? Seems hard to explain without some socks being reverted (things like this edit). I may have failed to think about some believable explanation here, but until such an explanation is given, the sockpuppetry one is thge most logical one, meaning that the suspected sock tags should be restored and this section closed (with or without boomerang). Fram (talk) 12:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I have no intention of doing any unlawful activity here... all I wanted was to maintain the article, hope u can understand — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoop4uall (talk • contribs) 12:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I got to know about the blacklist as there was a traffic drop from my Google Analytics Account so wanted to know more and so shot an email to the blacklisting admin... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoop4uall (talk • contribs) 12:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

"I had created this account so as to maintain the article ,AdvocateKhoj. when it was blacklisted, I had shot an email to the admin who blacklisted it asking the reason for blacklisting. However, I never received any response. Since there was no purpose, I haven't logged in since..."[1] - Anoop4uall, your userpage was tagged as a sockmaster 20 minutes after you emailed Ckatz. Are you seriously suggesting that having monitored Wikipedia for two entire years to "maintain the article" without making any edits at all, you suddenly notice an obscure blacklist entry mentioning it, email the admin concerned and then wait less than 20 minutes for an answer before logging out forever? If you had waited longer than that you would have noticed the sock template on your page in 2011 rather than in 2013 as you're now suggesting. Euryalus (talk) 12:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) What might possibly have happened was that the user Anoop4uall might be in a blocked IP range. If the blocked IP range is wide enough, a user within the range can also be blocked from editing even if the user himself/herself is not individually blocked. Epicgenius^{(give him tirade • check out damage)} 13:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The OP clarified that he was not blocked, but received a message about blocked suspected sock accounts. The explanation of why these are not sock accounts is (to me) not convincing. I have accordingly restored the "suspected sock" tags to the blocked accounts (note that there some IPs active spamming as well which haven't been listed). Fram (talk) 13:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The OP has severe COI over the article in question. He may not have been socking; however he could well have been engaging in meatpuppetry. GiantSnowman 13:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

There are things here that are hard to believe. In 2009 Anoop4uall creates an article in a single edit, and then stops editing for 2 years. Fine. But then:

• In 2011 a collection of recent accounts spring up and start spamming external links to Anoop4uall's article subject. One of these spammer accounts coincidentally has a username very similar to Anoop4uall (that being Rajeev4uall);
• Despite Anoop4uall not having edited for two years, they immediately notice the reversion of the spammed links and send an email to the admin reverting the spam;
• Also despite not having made more than 1 edit in Wikipedia ever, Anoop4uall knows their way around enough to determine that the spammed links have been added to the blacklist and makes this (and not the spam reversion that led to it) the topic of their email. Even though the addition to the blacklist would not have affected Google Analytics as it is not retrospective (ie it doesn't remove all previous uses of that external link from Wikipedia). So the only believable way Anoop4uall could have known of the blacklisting would be if they or another account was also trying to spam the link at the same time as the socks, and had got the message that it was unable to be added.
• Despite claiming to have an abiding interest in maintaining the article and an immediate concern at a sudden drop in web traffic apparently caused by the realtime removal of spam links (not the blacklisting), Anoop4uall then doesn't wait for a reply to their email about blacklisting but logs off immediately and forever, thereby missing the adding of a sock template to their userpage.
• Despite knowing how to locate the spam-blacklist pages, watching the effect of their article and linkspam to it on Google Analytics, and monitoring the article itself on Wikipedia constantly over a two-year period, Anoop4uall is still enough of a newcomer to mistakenly believe their account is blocked. Presumably because they saw a block message when returning to Wikipedia in 2013. But where did they see it? Because the only blocked accounts are the socks who spammed the links in 2011.

This thread was opened as a query about why the account Anoop4uall was blocked. As the account is not blocked, I suggest we can close this section as resolved. On the wider topic of why there is a category of suspected socks here, its because there was clearly sock- or meatpuppetry going on, and the above points would make anyone credibly suspicious that Anoop4uall was either well aware or actually involved.

Either way, no action seems required. Anoop4uall, you're free to edit Wikipedia, and good luck to you with your future contributions. But I agree with Fram that the sock templates should be restored to the blocked accounts. They're sock or meat puppets of someone and the suspicions that led to the tagging are at least passably credible. Euryalus (talk) 03:28, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

That does not mean they are socks of Anoop4uall; as the editor made a single substantive edit before this ANI post, it's insane to conclude they are a sockmaster. To assert that is to assert there is a single individual in the world interested in promoting/spamming AdvocateKhoj. I don't care about the blocked accounts (and I doubt many other folks do, either), and if someone insists they be tagged with something, that's fine. But they should not be tagged "Anoop4uall" because the Wikipedia practice is (or at least used to be) you don't make accusations you can't back up with evidence. NE Ent 13:40, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Same single interest, similar names, and restarting editing at the exact same time, is not the same as "accusations you can't back up with evidence". Whether they are socks or meatpuppets is not relevant, there is plenty of evidence that they are editing together for the same spamming purposes, and should thus be tagged as socks of each other. Fram (talk) 08:42, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Please file an spi per policy at WP:HSOCK then. NE Ent 09:42, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

And what will happen at that SPI? "Investigations are conducted by an administrator, who will compare the accounts' behaviour and determine whether they are probably connected; this is a behavioural evidence investigation." Which is what I have done here. I don't think that burocracy for the sake of burocracy will help anyone. Checkuser won't work anyway, since the other accounts are stale, so all there is now is a behavioural investigation. That the investaigation was done here instead of at SPI is hardly relevant. Fram (talk) 10:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

(sigh) It's what I have done here also. So we've had an SPI conducted here on AN/I. The blocked accounts are socks or meatpuppets. It is suspected (note: suspected, not confirmed) that Anoop4uall is involved in that sock- or meatpuppetry. That's why there's a tag on their userpage. But Anoop4uall is not blocked, so their query seem resolved. And no one is suggesting they be blocked, so there's no further action to be taken. NE Ent, I have no objection to your reopening this conversation to have an additional say, but now that that has occurred and we are all just restating our positions, I respectfully propose we let this thread pass into the ether. Euryalus (talk) 11:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

So, logically, Euryalus wasn't being truthful when you stated "Happy to believe you're not a sockmaster,"? or think it's okay to have accusation in place regardless of their belief in Anoop's innocence, or another possibility I'm missing? NE Ent 01:16, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

It's the last of your options, the other posibility you're missing. The first comment was a (perhaps misplaced) assumption of good faith which predated both the detailed analysis of the issue by Fram and myself, and also Anoop4uall's own additional comments, which influenced my impression of their involvement in the issue. These points are all outlined elsewhere in this thread. Euryalus (talk) 22:30, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

If it is only suspected and not confirmed, then the sockmaster tag needs to be removed per WP:HSOCK. NE Ent is correct on the policy for tagging socks. GregJackP Boomer! 11:37, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

There may be contradictory or unclear instructions somewhere, I don't immediately see what you mean here. According to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Administrators instructions#Sock puppets (registered accounts), "If it's a WP:DUCK or case where CU was not involved or was not confirmed - Replace all content on the sock puppet's user page with {{sock|SockMaster|blocked}}." Isn't this exactly what has been done here? It's a WP:DUCK, not confirmed by CU (which wasn't involved and can't be involved by now anymore), so the accounts are tagged with the "sock" template, exactly according to the instructions. I see no indications there that any tags need to be removed (unless a SPI or similar determines that they are not socks or the master is incorrect of course). Fram (talk) 11:49, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:HSOCK states "Only blocked accounts should be tagged as Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets and only upon sufficient evidence that would stand up to scrutiny." (emphasis added). The so-called master was never blocked. The evidence is not sufficient for the master - there is absolutely no behavioral evidence that indicates Anoop4uall was a sockmaster other than the similarity of one name. The tag should be removed. GregJackP Boomer! 12:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

But Anoop isn't tagged as a suspected wikipedia sockpuppet, but as a sockpuppeteer. Sockpuppeteers don't need necessarily to be blocked to be tagged nevertheless. Fram (talk) 12:38, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Disingenuous logic. GregJackP Boomer! 14:05, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Not really. Socks are blocked, the master account may or may not be blocked. I don't really care whether it remains tagged (as long as the socks stay tagged as such), but at least it served a purpose, i.e. make the editor aware that claims of him being a sockmaster were being made. I have seen in the past cases where some suspected socks were tagged, but the suspected sockmaster not tagged or warned in any way or shape, which means that he or she had no way of knowing about the accusation and couldn't defend or explain himself. Fram (talk) 14:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

NE Ent, you have first removed the sock templates from the blocked socks, and now, you have changed them to "unknown sockmaster", because there has been no SPI. As has been explained, an SPI is not needed, and the reason to have an SPI (to have an uninvolved admin confirm the DUCK suspicions) has been done here, in this very discussion. You may remain unconvinced, but claiming that there was no SPI is wikilawyering, and claiming that there was no evidence is not true. You may consider the evidence insufficient, but that doesn't mean that there is no evidence of course. Please don't change the sock templates again. Fram (talk) 07:56, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Ent's judgement on sock tags is not in line with practical application. It's annoying to say the least. GregJackP similarly knows diddly-squat about tagging, yet is here to back up Ent on the archaic wording of HSOCK that stupidly and inexplicably states that only blocked accounts may be tagged. I can't lay blame at either of their feet for this. Why can only blocked accounts be tagged? Why?! Can one user here adequately explain why only blocked accounts can be tagged without saying "Because it says so"? Doc talk 10:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Practically is not present here. These are 18 month old dead accounts we're taking about. This about whether we actually follow our AGF and treat others with respect pillar or not. NE Ent 10:15, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

The most important thing is the unfinished encyclopedia, and we're in a state of decay vis-a-vis intake of new editors. Accusing folks of things without solid evidence in vigilante posses is just rude, and even if we're right 9 out of 10 ten times, the one out of ten times we're wrong we lose a potential editor which is far more important in the long run. These accounts were blocked because of spam insertion -- which was dealt with by the blacklist. But that wasn't good enough -- we had also block the accounts and accuse a congenial non-deceptive spa editor of being in collusion. ("obviously meatpuppets"). Might as well block all the MOS editors as meatpuppets by that reasoning. Neither the five blocked accounts nor Anoop4all nor mine matter in the long run -- but doing the same thing over and over again does... there are a quarter million {{unreferenced}} templates to deal with -- we should be welcoming and intaking editors by the thousands instead of driving off every confused newbie unable or unwilling to wade through the arcane mass of wp-this and wp-that to figure out how to survive their first three months. NE Ent 10:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Fram you stated above "I don't really care whether it remains tagged," so why restore the template making the accusation? NE Ent 10:15, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I stated that I don't really care whether the sockpuppeteer tag remains on the active account. That doesn't mean that the category of his older socks should be emptied though, which is what you did. Apart from that, perhaps save your energy for a case really worth fighting for, e.g. a true newbie, not a four year old SPA editor who is clearly only interested in promoting and driving viewers to the company. If you want to change policies (i.e. that spammers which are also clearly meat- or sockpuppets should not be blocked if a blacklist may be sufficient), then take it to the appropriate discussion board. As for "vigilante posses", well, strictly speaking as an admin I am not "vigilante" here. You wanted an SPI, which requires an uninvolved admin to check the accounts and evidence and base their conclusion on these. This is exactly what I did, but "here" instead of at the SPI pages. If that makes this a "vigilante posse" (I don't see much of a posse though, people agreeing independently is hardly a posse), then so be it. It makes your speech about the pillars a lot less convincing though. Fram (talk) 10:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I also object to the "vigilante posse" notion. A crucial point that many seem to be missing is this: all tags ultimately must be backed with... solid evidence! The burden is firmly on the tagger; and if he or she cannot provide the necessary evidence for placing the tag, trouble will surely come their way. Instead of focusing on theoretical "taggee" victims, I feel we're better off applying greater AGF to those who tag accounts (and therefore must provide solid evidence for the tagging under the scrutiny that we all must adhere to). I don't buy the chasing off the newbies argument with the tagging procedure, but I respect your view. Doc talk 06:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I see a lot of reason to AGF. If they were a clever person up to something, why would a person with an unblocked account come to a high/expert scrutiny place like wp:ani and ask to get looked at? North8000 (talk) 02:14, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying that since one of the user (Rajeev4uall) has a similar sounding name, I am related to that account? Do two people having same/similar names make them family? I was honest to admit that I am associated with AdvocateKhoj, but at the same time very clearly stated that I have no idea about those accounts... still I am tagged as a suspect!Anoop4uall (talk) 09:46, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Those blocked accounts did nothing but add spam links in support of AdvocateKhoj, a company of which you have admitted to being a partner, and which you wrote the article about. It is difficult to believe that you have no connection to them. -- 101.119.15.129 (talk) 11:14, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

It's rather easy for me to believe, and it's supposed to be policy around here: assume good faith. It's joint US - India company that has been functioning for five years and relies on subscribers developing customers from potential clients posting on site. It's as likely the blocked accounts were different subscribers hoping to drive business to the site as it's likely the accounts are socks of partners in the site; they may not have even been aware they were violating policy. In fact, the blocking of User:Nikirai is particularly bad; they changed [2] an external link to advocatekhoj.com to a wikilink to the existing article. Inter linking to another mainspace article is now spamming??? (It's not a correct reference, of course). The link to advocatekhoj was added about a month earlier [3] by an IP to fix a broken link. (Check it out, the previous reference, www.indialaw.com appears to be a dead website.) It's actually very easy to infer things other the socking if one is so inclined. Note: www.advocatekhoj.com/library/bareacts/equalremuneration/index.php?Title=Equal%20Remuneration%20Act,%201976 may be "spammy" but it at least contains the text referenced in Directive Principles in India; the current article is still pointing to a dead website. (I'm reminded of Frank Burns in the televsion show M*A*S*H spouting better dead than Red.) NE Ent 15:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

That's of course not the only edit Nikirai made (e.g. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ministry_of_Corporate_Affairs_%28India%29&diff=prev&oldid=414022439 this was that account's first edit), and that's also ignoring the timing of all of these accounts startng editing at nearly the same time, or another one of the blocked accounts going to the same article to spam the site the very next day. How likely is it that different subscribers edit the same article two days in a row, and edit nothing but this spam? Again, for the sock policy and sock blocks, it doesn't matter if they are one editor, or multiple meatpuppets which are basically indistuingishable. And what's the point in discussing two year old blocks of editors spamming a blacklisted site and now deleted article anyway? Fram (talk) 14:24, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLP violation at Ludwig von Mises Institute

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I'm not a regular editor of Ludwig von Mises Institute, however, a content dispute was raised at WP:RSN[4]. The issue concerned a WP:BLOG that was being used as a source for third-party information regarding living people which, unless I'm missing something, is a clear violation of WP:SPS and WP:BLP. I waited about a half a day for someone to remove the BLP violation. Nobody did so. As an RSN contributor, I don't usually get involved in the disputes that get raised at RSN. However, given that this was a BLP issue, I decided to be WP:BOLD and removed the BLP violation[5] clearly identifying the reason for the removal in the edit summary: "Removed WP:BLP violation. We cannot use a blog as a source for third-party information about living people. See WP:SPS and discussion at WP:RSN for more information" I was instantly reverted.[6] Since this is a BLP violation, I undid the reversion.[7] I am now at 2RR for which I feel is a clear BLP violation. I detest edit-warring so I will stop at this point. But I invite other editors to examine my actions and request assistance/advice on how to proceed going forward. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:59, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Two RfCs I closed here and here are relevant to this situation. Editors who have insisted on keeping them in for any particular claim seem to only read into the bolded part of the close rather than the portion that refers to WP:SPS. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 04:39, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello Jethro. Actually this is a different issue, see here [8] Thanks.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SPECIFICO (talk • contribs)

(edit conflict)

A Quest For Knowledge (talk · contribs) is not the only editor to remove this particular item. Arzel (talk · contribs) removed the item here: [9] and North8000 (talk · contribs) removed it here: [10]. The first removal was reverted by SPECIFICO (talk · contribs) and the second by MilesMoney (talk · contribs) here: [11]. But what is particularly telling is MilesMoney's removal of a SPS tag here [12] while the particular item is under discussion. Specifico again removed the SPS tag [13] with the comment that tagging the particular item was a "belated protest tag". (This issue – the removal of discussion tags – has been raised before.) Rather than wait for discussions about controversial material to be resolved, these editors behave as if the discussions are going in their favor. Such is not the case. Rather, we see comments that do not consider the import of BLP in WP and which label edits as "‎Edit-warring under the guise of BLP" & "instead of skipping over consensus". (Other comments, by each side of the issue, are available at the RSN.) – S. Rich (talk) 05:01, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

As helpful as Rich was, he sort of forgot that my edit comment explained why I removed the tag. The tag was for WP:SPS, but my comment read "newsblog not sps". This article has suffered from an inordinate amount of drive-by tagging, so I'm particularly sensitive to inaccurate tags, as well as ones that are not followed up on with a discussion.

After I restored what AQFK removed, I left them a note about their edit-warring, with the following additional comment:

"You do not have a BLP exception. There are editors questioning the reliability of the source, but they have not been successful at impeaching it. That's why they left a notice, as opposed to removing the material."

Just to be clear, the reason there's no BLP exception is that Ludwig von Mises Institute is not a biography of a living person or even a biography. The material that AQFK censored spoke of the entire institution without identifying any individual, living or otherwise. So while I share their concerns about WP:BLP violations, this cannot be one, and WP:BLP should not be used as a cover for edit-warring.

In their talk page response, AQFK demanded that I self-revert, which is impossible because they immediately reverted my edit. Frankly, I'm starting to wonder whether AQFK really understands what these policies are.

I'm going to politely ask that AQFK revert themselves and instead join the ongoing discussion on the article's talk page. MilesMoney (talk) 05:48, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Compared to BLP violations on a number of Austrian economics related articles, including actual BLPs, it is a minor violation of BLP. (See August 2013 WP:BLPN thread here.) However, it is quite typical of the edit warring behavior we have seen where one set of editors reverts concerns expressed by uninvolved editors who try to correct a problem, get reverted repeatedly, and are subjected to questionable arguments, and tag team editing. Soon enough the uninvolved editors, even those who bring issues to noticeboards, get fed up and leave.

Also, it should be noted that the Volokh Conspiracy website issue was brought to WP:RSN soon after I wrote I thought it was one of several that should be brought, all having NPOV implications. (Which to me does include BLP ones, since the article is replete with such poorly sourced negative comments written in such a way to reflect poorly upon anyone in the least associated with Ludwig von Mises Institute. Some such material also is then put into individuals BLPs, or inferred in a snide way when referring to their association with the Institute.) Since an editor jumped the gun and only brought Volokh Conspiracy to WP:RSN, I decided to share my other concerns in the thread directly below it, Wikipedia:RSN#Three_sources_on_Ludwig_von_Mises_Institute_article. User:Carolmooredc 05:56, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Strangely, you called this a WP:BLP issue on WP:RSN and were corrected there, too. To remind you, it's not any sort of BLP issue. As for all the other stuff you're talking about, I don't see how it relates to this discussion. MilesMoney (talk) 06:12, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Multiple editors have alleged a BLP violation over this on multiple forums, but there's absolutely no merit because, among other things, WP:BLP isn't even relevant. Let's please just shut this down already so we can get back to the job of editing Wikipedia. MilesMoney (talk) 06:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLP applies EVERYWHERE in WP. Talk pages, Bios, articles on cats. Defamation of character is probably the most serious issue that WP encounters. To claim that BLP cannot be relevant because the article is not a Bio shows a severe misunderstanding of the BLP policy. Arzel (talk) 13:08, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

According to the Wikipedia article, "The institute has a staff of 16 Senior Fellows and about 70 adjunct scholars from the United States and other countries." According to WP:BLPN, "A harmful statement about a small group or organization comes closer to being a BLP problem than a similar statement about a larger group; and when the group is very small, it may be impossible to draw a distinction between the group and the individuals that make up the group."Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:37, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Request for more specific restatement of concern

There is no specific allegation made above. All I see is a broad, abstract restatement of policy. I ask that OP please specifically and concretely state how the relevant BLP policy was violated by the content s/he links to. Steeletrap (talk) 07:29, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• How is this an issue for ANI? It has been properly raised at RSN; it is also under discussion at BLPN. Unless there is some obvious need for admin action, the discussion here should be closed. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:19, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

You took the words right out of my mouth. Let's close this. MilesMoney (talk) 16:09, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is confusing. You cannot use a blog to accuse living people of being "racists, anti-Semites and conspiracy theorists". The administrative action required is that any editor who continues to violate BLP either needs to be blocked or the article needs to be protected with the BLP violation omitted. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:31, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• Note that this article is under newly established discretionary sanctions. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:35, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

As the thread on BLPN involved the particular source (Volkh) already under discussion, I closed the BLP thread and provided a link to the RSN page. Yet another thread is open here. Perhaps WP:AN3 would have been a better place for it at the time. But the EW problem is now moot because of the general sanctions. I recommend that further comments, including BLP concerns, be posted on the RSN. (And I regret that I needlessly furthered the discussion here by adding my own comments.) – S. Rich (talk) 16:36, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

@Srich32977: As an involved editor, and with BLP concerns having been expressed in several places, including the RSN, it was inappropriate for you to close the BLPN thread. Please undo your close ASAP. If you choose not to do so, I ask any Admin please to do so. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 16:41, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Statements about organizations "not normally" BLP statements

Per WP:BLPGROUP, "this policy does not normally apply to material about corporations, companies, or other entities regarded as legal person" (which LvMI falls into). The only explicit exception they make to this rule is when an organization is very small. The Institute has nearly 100 associated scholars, hundreds of associated authors, dozens of other co-workers, and thousands and thousands of members/students who don't work there but support the Institute and are heavily involved in its activities. The Institute, with its global following an multi-million dollar endowment, is not by any reasonable definition a "very small" organization, and therefore BLP doesn't apply. (Apart from common sense, the best argument for this is that 1) organizations/corporations/other entities (e.g. non-profits like the Institute) are mostly exempt from BLP and 2) LvMI has a larger endowment, higher profile, greater membership, and bigger staff than the median (i.e. BLP exempt) organizations/companies/non-profit/legal entity. This entire thread is a category error and makes no sense because of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steeletrap (talk • contribs) 17:01, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

BLP certainly DOES apply. Let's say John Doe is listed in an article about SmallBusiness, and he's still alive. In the article about SmallBusiness, someone says "the members of SmallBusiness sleep around on their wives, as per this blog". That, by first year logic a=b, and b=c, therefore a=c is a flat out BLP violation as it accuses John Doe of sleeping around on his wife. ES&L 17:11, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Good example! And a number of people are named in the article. Also, something that needs clarifying is that most of the racism accusations like at Volokh Conspiracy site come from or refer to the 2008 period when Ron Paul newsletters were widely publicized and people were accusing Mises leader Lew Rockwell of doing them and Rockwell was saying someone else did and would not identify that person. Obviously, trying to make it look like these are ongoing contemporary accusations applying to everyone associated with Mises, when they are related to a historical brouhaha related to a couple people is problematic. I haven't even tried to fix that with proper framing, given that even getting rid of obvious WP:RS problems is an issue, it's not something I want to tussle with right now. User:Carolmooredc 17:24, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

The example is confused, and another (logical) category error, because it relates to conduct that is necessarily personal (a person or persons engaged in physical acts with other people's spouses), not an abstract statement about the (in thie case, allegedly racist) ideoogical culture of the organization. WP:BLPGROUP, which indicates that statements about the large majority of organizations do not qualify as BLPs, must apply. The caveat to the generally rule is only meant to apply to those organizations (probably firms comprised of only a few (e.g. 1, 2 or 3 people) that are logically indistinct from individuals. By virtue of its 350 faculty members (1), multi-million dollar endowment, and tens of thousands-strong global membership, LvMI is certainly a logically distinct entity from any individual person. Steeletrap (talk) 17:28, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean it's confused? If I say "the people at SmallBusiness are racist", it still meets a=c ... seriously, WTF. ES&L 18:08, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLPGROUP does not apply because it is possible "to draw a distinction between the group and the individuals that make up the group." The LvMI has, according to its website, over 350 faculty members working with it, and thousands of donors in 50 states and 80 countries.[14] Individuals may join for as little as $50 per year. That does not include active members who have died or left. If we write about a rock band, then by implication we are writing about each and every member, but no one believes that every LvMI supporter participates in their day to day workings. This discussion belongs in the policy talk page, because as written the policy does not cover such large organizations. TFD (talk) 18:21, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I hate to bring this up, but aren't debates about WP:BLP and WP:BLPGROUP supposed to be settled on WP:BLPN, not WP:ANI? This isn't even a hypothetical matter, because it was actually brought up on WP:BLPN before it came here, but Rich closed it down. From what I saw, it didn't look as if there was much support for the idea that it was a BLP violation.

I'm really unhappy with Rich about this because the matter was essentially settled until it leaked out onto this page and Rich shut down the original discussion before it could formally come to a conclusion. I view this as an abuse of non-admin closing, and I don't believe we should allow this on sanctioned articles.

I'm asking that an admin involved in enforcing sanctions look into Rich's actions, as linked to above, and rule on whether they are acceptable. If not, I would expect him to receive a formal warning, at the very least. MilesMoney (talk) 18:41, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

:::@MilesMoney:You are not allowed to use a blog to making disparaging comments about living people. This is a clear violation of WP:BLP. Even if every person covered in the article were dead, it's still a violation of WP:SPS: you cannot use a blog as a source for third-parties. I am sorry if I am the first person to explain Wikipedia's policy about Wikipedia:V#Sources_that_are_usually_not_reliable, but this is simply not allowed. Period. I suggest that you take a step back and reflect upon this discussion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:50, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

But the disparaging comments are about an organization. Please discuss BLP issues on BLPN; I've re-opened that section. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:04, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@MilesMoney:You are not allowed to use a blog to making disparaging comments about living people. This is a clear violation of WP:BLP. Even if every person covered in the article were dead, it's still a violation of WP:SPS: you cannot use a blog as a source for third-parties. I am sorry if I am the first person to explain Wikipedia's policy about Wikipedia:V#Sources_that_are_usually_not_reliable, but this is simply not allowed. Period. I suggest that you take a step back and reflect upon this discussion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:50, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

This topic has been reopened on WP:BLPN. I see no reason to discuss it here any longer. MilesMoney (talk) 19:12, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

If any editor continues to violate WP:BLP or WP:SPS, then admin action is required. Either such editors be blocked and/or topic-banned, or the article needs to be protected with the BLP violation removed. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:24, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Need definitive admin answer for similar issues at three notice boards?

The question as to whether Self-Published blog entries by knowledgeable but not necessarily expert people who make highly negative accusations with little real evidence can be used in this article is discussed at these three noticeboards [changed later to order listed; note by four different editors]:

• Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Volokh_Conspiracy and Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Three_sources_on_Ludwig_von_Mises_Institute_article. 22:05, 25 October 2013 (Good overview of actual quotes and sources in question.)
• Wikipedia:BLPN#Ludwig_von_Mises_Institute 16:56, 26 October 2013
• Here, WP:ANI. 3:59, 27 October 2013

This issue has repeatedly been brought to noticeboards, usually regarding actual biographies, over the last six months (links available on request) and even though SPS usually have been shot down, the same editors keep defending doing this over and over. Is there someway to get a definitive answer or even add this issue to the Austrian economics community sanctions? User:Carolmooredc 19:47, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• This is already covered by WP:SPS. This is an exact quote:

“ Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people ”

There are no exceptions. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:01, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

[Insert: This has been quoted and argued repeatedly, but there's always some excuse... sigh... User:Carolmooredc 20:13, 27 October 2013 (UTC)]

• Carol, your summary is not factual. In particular, people such as Callahan and Bernstein are not merely knowledgeable, but are published experts in the relevant field. Also, as AQFK's own quote shows, the prohibition against self-published sources only applies to WP:BLP and the LvMI is not a living person or a small organization, so WP:BLP does not cover it. MilesMoney (talk) 20:03, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

If I have understood correctly, Bernstein is a professor of law, he is not a scholar of anti-semittism, racism or conspiracy theories. His statements about this is more his personal view (which may well be correct, but is not based on scholarship). Regards, Iselilja (talk) 22:02, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban for MilesMoney based on accusations of tendentious editing

• Support Enough is enough. I support this topic ban for the violation of WP:BLP and WP:SPS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:23, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• Query. For which articles? For how long? - Sitush (talk) 20:27, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll leave the specifics to the admins, but I would suggest a 30-day topic ban regarding the Ludwig von Mises Institute broadly construed. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:32, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support It is all but impossible to discuss this or any issue with him. His attempt to change what Rand Paul said regarding same-sex marriage is another good example. Going against consensus, BLP, and continuous TE during the entire process. Probably the biggest reason is that MM seems to have a severe misunderstanding regarding the basic aspects of BLP in that we cannot present our interpretation of what a person has said. Arzel (talk) 21:56, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support MilesMoney's hectoring tendentiousness and often wayward interpretations of policy etc suggest that a short break might be beneficial. The umpteen recurring issues on the articles will not go away but if a break gives MM a chance to calm down a bit and spend a little more time understanding our policies then that can only be A Good Thing. Although an unintentional consequence (ie: not a reason to block per se), such a restriction might also give some others involved in the subject area some pause for thought. - Sitush (talk) 22:26, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support – Two weeks ago I drafted a listing of MM's te diffs. It ran for 80+ items, not counting those directed towards me. Eighty items = WP:TLDR, so I set it aside. Shall I post it? – S. Rich (talk) 00:54, 28 October 2013 (UTC) Please note: The listing of diffs I've got spans all sorts of topic, not just Mises.org. 01:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

MM's posts on user talk pages (comments and replies are all quoted remarks) posted by S. Rich

Date & Diff	User talk page edit count start date status	MM's comment Bold: = section heading posted by MM	User reply diff	User reply	Notes
Jul 23 [15]	Arzel 10k 2005 ---	Stalking: Dude, you look like you're making a habit of following me around and undoing what I write. Back off or I'll report you.	[16]	Dude, Those are pages which I have been following, perhaps you are stalking me. Work constructively with others.	---
Jul 28 [17]	StAnselm 92.5k 2007 ---	Untrue edit comment: Your edit comment for ... just wasn't true, so I put it all back. I'm gonna assume you made a mistake, this time. But if you keep it up, I'm gonna report you for lying.	---	---	---
Aug 27 [18]	RL0919 20.8k 2005 sysop	As far as I'm concerned, you're pretty much like that imaginary Bible-thumper: too biased and incompetent to contribute. Now, I can't stop you from taking this as an insult, but it's really all about your demonstrated behavior and ability, so it's not personal at all. I don't hate you, I just don't think your opinion about Ayn Rand can be trusted, so I can't give it any weight at all.	[19]	Omitted	---
Sep 10 [20]	Renren8123 eighteen Aug 15 ---	Renren, you've been warned before to stop making false accusations of vandalism. What do we need to do, block you?	---	---	Posted after a second edit had been reverted as "vandalism"
Sep 20 [21]	Binksternet 101k 2007 ---	Blinkersnet, the problem with being incompetent is that you aren't competent enough to realize your own shortcomings.... Hint: When lots of people say you're incompetent but you just don't see it, consider that maybe it's not a bizarre conspiracy against you, just a shared recognition of something about you that you can't see for yourself.	[22]	Reverted comment w/ edit summary "Take it somewhere else"	---
Sep 24 [23]	DagonAmigaOS thirty-eight Sep 11 ---	Tendentious editing: Please do not edit articles against policy. I'm talking about Ayn Rand.	[24]	One edit is not Tendentious editing, putting amateur is not neutral, it is POV, it should be left simple philosopher with no qualifiers which is more neutral than any other option i.e. trained philosopher as it is the case of Ayn Rand or Amateur as you claim.	---
Sep 26 [25]	Mark Arsten --- --- sysop	I'm actually not a big fan of the version you froze it to, ... We're flooded with these POV-pushers who are ignoring both policy and our sources.	---	---	Posted in response to PP; slightly modified in following edit.
Sep 27 [26]	Mark Arsten --- --- ---	I'd need to use the fingers of both hands to count up all the behavioral policies you just violated here, but the most basic problem is that what you said isn't accurate.	---	---	Posted in response to a comment by Arzel on same page.
Sep 27 [27]	198.228.217.149 N/A N/A N/A	A few things you did wrong on Objectivism (Ayn Rand): ... It's pretty obvious that you've been editing under multiple IP's in California. That's also frowned upon because it creates the illusion of multiple individuals agreeing. Consolidate your identity by creating an account....I'm not sure if I'm going to bother to roll back your changes, because there's a WP:3RR policy that could be used against me. If you're honest, you'll roll them back yourself.	---	---	---
Oct 6 [28]	Adjwilley 2k 2007 sysop	...In fact, the only reason I mentioned your name is that your witch-hunt SPI was brought up by your fellow admin [User:Orlady] to discredit my legitimate SPI against a pack of meatpuppets from Reddit. She brought you up, so "I put you down", but all I said is the simple truth. It's a fact that you have a track record of falsely accusing editors of being socks. You have only yourself to blame for that.	---	---	"my legitimate SPI" refers to WP:Sockpuppet investigations/QuebecSierra; "witch-hunt SPI" refers to WP:Sockpuppet investigations/StillStanding-247

This is one listing of diffs I complied re MM's behavior – limited to user talk page comments. (Other diffs on Noticeboards, advisories & warnings, and MM's opening of and SPI as to other editors is available.) With these diffs which simply involve interaction with individual members of the community, I propose that sanctions on MM extend beyond particular topics. – S. Rich (talk) 02:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose You all haven't even made your case for a violation here, in this one instance, yet (UPDATE: with the exception of Srich, who added the table) you are calling for a "topic ban" without any supporting diffs, or even, a warning for Miles' alleged "misconduct." This evidence-less "me-tooism" taking over the LvMI pages is highly disconcerting. Steeletrap (talk) 01:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Cor blimey. - Sitush (talk) 01:13, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support MM has been an abrasive and accusatory presence on these articles. If we're to break through this long-standing conflict on these articles, this seems a good a place to start as any. Gamaliel (talk) 01:41, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support Indefinite ban for conservative and libertarian topics in the U.S. I noticed that he edit-warred and argued to call the possible U.S. presidential candidate Ted Cruz an immigrant from Canada ("he was 4 when he came to America, so he's obviously an immigrant").[29] TFD (talk) 01:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support at least a topic ban on libertarian topics, broadly construed. MilesMoney is only here to increase discord, not to build the encyclopedia. Binksternet (talk) 02:13, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see any basis for a topic ban or block, given what Wikipedia policy says. Occasionally making people unhappy is sometimes a foreseeable but unavoidable consequence of insisting that we follow the rules. However, it is not a punishable offense. It is not clear what I might have done that would justify removing me from Wikipedia. Given that I've never even been blocked, this would be akin to the death penalty for an alleged parking violation.

The strongest argument presented so far would be Rich's cherry-picked diffs, which show that I was a bit rough around the edges when I first started editing. Of course, as the lack of any recent diffs show, I've since learned to be civil. I know Rich has been holding on to those diffs for a while now. They were old when he collected them, and they're irrelevant now.

In any case, the goal of this ANI section is to discuss BLP violations, and it turns out that there weren't any. How this got changed into an attack eludes me. I would recommend closing this thread down because it's out of order; it's trolling. Instead, I open my talk page to anyone who wants to share their concerns with me one-on-one. If you're bashful, I also accept email. But this whole thing is counterproductive and is an affront to decency and policy alike. MilesMoney (talk) 03:32, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I think we're past the point where you can solve this with one to one conversations. Certainly everyone has a learning curve, and everyone has a bad day where they might snap at someone, and no one is going to blame you for any hostile remarks to at least one person on that list above, since he's hostile to everyone. But there's a pattern of hostility that clearly exists, and your refusal to even acknowledge the problem convinces me that this discussion here, whatever the outcome, is necessary. Gamaliel (talk) 03:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree that Miles' conduct in some of his early days here often violated policy. But that's really quite common for noobs, and he's made major strides since then. This really resembles a lynch mob more than anything else, and makes feel me discouraged about the community's capacity for fairness and evidence-based discourse. Steeletrap (talk) 04:02, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

A fine example would be my recent encounter here, where I maintained decorum despite repeated personal attacks against me. This is all in the last day or so, so it's not ancient history. MilesMoney (talk) 04:04, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, looks like you were asked (rudely) to leave a user talk page, and instead you posted three more comments. A pertinent guideline says "If a user asks you not to edit their user pages, it is probably sensible to respect their requests".Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:34, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

So you agree that they were rude and I was polite, and that I've therefore proven my point about civility. Thank you. MilesMoney (talk) 04:44, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

A lynch mob? Please don't be ridiculous. Gamaliel (talk) 04:09, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

MM, it is possible to be civil and still be tendentious, and to be civil yet still not understand policy. You're still doing it, eg: here. - Sitush (talk) 04:16, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

That's an excellent point but a terrible example, since everything I said there was both civil and true. A much better one can be found here, where you threatened to get me blocked, right before you started stalking my edits on pages you've never shown any interest in before. With all due respect, you have admitted to holding a grudge against me, and this is not a sufficient reason for the community to block me. MilesMoney (talk) 04:21, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

It was not true that I was presenting "a boogeyman being waved around to scare us into scrubbing the article of well-supported criticism". And yet, even a couple of minutes ago, you were persisting in WP:IDHT behaviour regarding the point. - Sitush (talk) 04:51, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Given that you've sworn to get me blocked, and are currently trying to do so, I suppose I can't expect you to be entirely objective. Still, anyone who looks can see that you brought up the threat of a wildly implausible lawsuit in an attempt to scare editors into compliance. MilesMoney (talk) 04:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support - it's the only kind of editing s/he seems to do! Good work compiling evidence. User:Carolmooredc 03:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Carol, given that you "rewrote" (your words) your own Wikipedia page (created by an anon IP originally, but effectively re-created by you) when you were a noob (1). Of your edits, you later said "I... rewrote a very POV/WP:OR peice as a newbie that was quickly reverted." I'm surprised that you are so critical of misconduct which occurred when a user was new to this community, and could not be reasonably expected to know all community policies. (Note to WP:Battleground-ing editors: before you erroneously accuse me of a personal attack, please note the logical difference between a factual assertion (namely that Carol created a wiki entry for herself as a noob) and a (by definition, subjective) ad hominem remark.) Steeletrap (talk) 04:32, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you are engaging in irrelevant personal attacks. I explained my newbie mistakes at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Carol_Moore_(2nd_nomination) (this diff) and did not argue to keep the article which I was happy to see deleted. The important point is: I was not so disruptive that articles I edited were constantly brought to noticeboards and that many editors complained about my editing on them. I myself didn't bring any issue to a noticeboard for probably 2.5 years after starting editing. I also have not been accused of being a sock puppet. So find a better defense for MilesMoney. User:Carolmooredc 05:02, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

You're the only person to ever bring me to a noticeboard, and all your attempts have failed. That some of your efforts are now "succeeding" only reveals the ANI process as arbitrary. Even if you think there is rampant anti-LvMI bias, you still have to concede that they're arbitrary, since all of the previous efforts were ignored and dismissed by admins as content disputes. Steeletrap (talk) 05:22, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Enough of the unsupported claims and personal attacks. Also note that my ANI complaint about talk page harassment did result in a warning to you here. This also is starting to feel like harassment. User:Carolmooredc 05:37, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Reminder: We are discussing the editing behavior of MilesMoney. – S. Rich (talk) 05:42, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually, we're discussing a BLP issue, but you've had that table of cherry-picked diffs on hand for weeks now, and you've finally found a chance to use it against me. I don't think this is how collegial editing is supposed to work. MilesMoney (talk) 05:47, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Less than 21% of your edits have been on articles. The rest is talk page commentary. Indeed, it did take me a while to go through the comments. I believe the data I provided is accurate in every respect. E.g., the material is yours. However, comments about me were left out of my "cherry-picked" table, so it is incomplete. And I could have gone on and posted comments from the last 2 weeks. So, yes, the listing of 80+ diffs only tells part of the story. I will comment further: Your talk page has several reminders about civility, and you've "scrubbed" them with dismissive comments. Attempting to divert this subsection into a "discussing BLP" issue does not work. Repeating AQFK's opening comment "Enough is enough." – S. Rich (talk) 06:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to have to call your bluff on that one. I have been increasingly civil since I learned of the requirement, and have continued to be so even in the face of extreme provocation. As for talk page edits, that's a very good thing. It means that I'm discussing content instead of edit-warring. MilesMoney (talk) 06:37, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

MilesMoney, can you explain why you pushed the view that Ted Cruz was an immigrant? In my view you are trying to popularize a "birther" myth about him. This is not the forum to start myths. And you are more interested in presenting negative views about libertarians with no concern about rs or weight, than with trying to write neutral articles about them. TFD (talk) 06:30, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I was very clear on Cruz being an American citizen, so the birther comparison is a slur. However, I care very much about telling the whole truth, not just the pleasant part. We have plenty of sources that say he has dual Canadian citizenship and emigrated as a child. The fact that you want to block me for trying to put these reliable sources into the article is telling. The way you make it sound, this isn't about my behavior, it's about your objection to the content I support. Well, I support what our sources say, even when threatened and insulted. MilesMoney (talk) 06:37, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support. For this edit alone, taking part in an edit war to restore BLP vios (even if the content is only a suspected BLP vio) is not on. Although the topic ban ought to be for all american political articles given what TFD has said and MM's tendentious editing on the BLP of Rand Paul. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support due to the long-running crusade/problems that this user has had. Some of the people attempting to defend them (Steeletrap) are clearly ignoring the numerous diffs that show how disruptive MM is. Trying to edit-war dodgy sources in to articles is bang out of order. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:16, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support Much as I agree with his political POV, MilesMoney is clearly POV-pushing, in addition to the incivility and battleground mentality. Neljack (talk) 09:17, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The fact that you feel the need to clarify your political agreements with Miles (presumably on gay marriage) is telling, as it implies that even you (an anti-Miles editor) implicitly acknowledge that political biases are or may be perceived to be a driving force of this ANI. Steeletrap (talk) 13:00, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

To clarify, I only mentioned my political agreement with Miles (on the Mises Institute - I don't know what his views are on gay marriage or why they are relevant) because it was apparent that there was an attempt to portray this as an ideologically-motivated witch-hunt. Neljack (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Admin note I received two good faith requests via email to let this run longer, so I've reversed my earlier closure.--v/r - TP 01:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Comment – From User talk:MilesMoney's "post-mortem", I'd say he's burned his bridges. (And this is not the first time that MilesMoney had unpleasant things to say about WP. See: [30].) Still, I'll respond to his calling my bluff, above. E.g., "I have been increasingly civil since I learned of the requirement, ...."

• MilesMoney learned of the requirement when PrairieKid (talk · contribs) posted a welcome message back in July [31]. Doesn't the welcome message say something about the WP:5PILLARS? (PrairieKid later removed the welcome in an expression of disgust [32].)
• A month later I posted a message about editor interaction here: [33].
• More talk page messages about EW and NPA were posted, and on 20 August MilesMoney said "I think we need to be very careful to stay civil while still being honest and direct. It's not that easy, and when I slip, I will apologize and correct myself, especially if it's pointed out." [34].
• An admin reminder from Qwyrxian (talk · contribs) about civility was posted in September here: [35].

In light of this history of early reminders about civility, can we really expect MilesMoney to reform? In light of MilesMoney's second "Fuck Wikipedia", do we moderate the topic ban? Or, as I would advocate, do we block him all together? – S. Rich (talk) 04:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban for all pages related to libertarianism or the Tea Party. I had hoped the general sanctions applied to several of his favored topics would work to reign in his behavior and push him in a better direction. However, his comments after the initial closing of this thread indicate that his behavior was undertaken with prior knowledge that it would create conflict and draw sanctions. (More on my view of those comments here.) In that context, it seems unlikely that he can contribute beneficially at all, and definitely not to subjects where he has already manifested negative behavior. --RL0919 (talk) 15:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

User:RL0919, none of Miles' conduct contained in the diffs above occurred post-sanctions. Please correct your remarks by noting this. Steeletrap (talk) 17:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can tell I did not make any claims that require correction. You seem to be inferring something that I didn't say. --RL0919 (talk) 18:22, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

@Srich32977: If you are interested in sharing complete and unbiased evidence here, I think that your table should begin one step back and have a column for the diff to which MilesMoney was responding in your first column. That would be the least we would need to understand the context of MilesMoney's comments in the first diff. In addition, since you have studied all the details and circumstances surrounding the cited diffs, please provide a few sentences about how, in each case, they demonstrate serious offenses. Let there be no question You should demonstrate that you've presented the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 00:53, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The magic of diffs is that editors can go forward and back in the edit history to put comments in context. But to ask me to match MM's comments with the surrounding article edits, etc. is going too far. Perhaps you could do so, and thereby refute the negative import of MM's comments. (Good luck in that regard.) Defend your client with facts if you feel injustice is being done. MM is getting more than his "day in court". His peers have spoken, and are speaking still. But poor MilesMoney has not spoken up for himself, so I can see why you may not wish to put in the effort. – S. Rich (talk) 04:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose This break has cooled things on the articles, and the BLP issue is turning out in MilesMoney's favor and against those who accused him of EW. With sanctions in place, there is little chance that Miles or any other editor could disrupt the article for long in the future. And nothing precludes any future ANI actions if warranted and supported by factual evidence rather than content disagreement and personal frustration. The table presented in this section provides no evidence to support a block, and its author has declined to discuss it. SPECIFICO talk 03:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support - his tendentious editing on Ayn Rand prevented positive progress for weeks or months. Yworo (talk) 06:07, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

@srich32977 - Look at your comment above. It demonstrates everything that is wrong and dysfunctional with your edits on WP. The model of our work here is a collaborative process, not an adverserial processs. Your model, Srich, is one you bring from your other passions, military battle and litigation. We're not warriors and we're not litigators. We're not adversaries here.

When your battle cry is to "defend your client" and "push on a pole" when you mis-cite and misapply policy because, what the heck -- it might stick, you are following the model of a warrior and a litigator. Litigators and warriors set traps, boldly state half-truths, and seek to defeat their enemies. Never surrender! Well, WP is not a battlefield and Miles is not your enemy, Srich32977. Your inability to defend your own table of insinuation and distortion is not the act of a collaborator. Well, now @MilesMoney: has posted a detailed and reasoned rebuttal of your claims. If you don't step up with a good-faith reply, then your complaints are just another battleground tactic dressed up in a pretty matrix. SPECIFICO talk 15:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Reopening of the thread

We've just seen a lynchmob in action on this thread, and much to the credit of Admin TP, he has reopened the thread so that we can try to live up to the principles and ideals of the WP community. Those ideals include clear, accurate, and logical discussion of disputes so that the community can proceed to principled consensus. Instead, on the matter of the proposed topic ban for User:MilesMoney we saw a group of otherwise reasonable individuals come together in a flash mob of frustrated accusation to conduct a full-blown old-fashioned lynching of MilesMoney. It was off-topic for this thread. Only one editor even attempted to provide anything other than personal opinion, feeling, and accusation in support of this proposed ban. Is that what we want for WP community process? User Srich proudly shared his dossier on MilesMoney, but without any discussion or explanation of his rather dubious and spin-doctored yarn.

We already knew that there have been behavioral problems -- widespread -- at the Mises-related articles. In the long thread which recently ended, we decided to apply Community Sanctions to stop those abuses. That thread had more than its own share of personal attack, spin-doctoring, and disingenuous rhetoric by several participants who piously joined the lynch mob here two days later.

We all know that from time to time, these conflicts between BLP and EW/3RR arise on many articles. MilesMoney was not the one who originally inserted the Bernstein text, and he was not the only one to revert its removal. He engaged in good faith discussion of the issue on the talk and noticeboard pages. He's not the only one who rejects the BLP claim. If you review the BLPN and RSN threads, you'll see many good faith editors who support MM's analysis and reject the BLP claim.

Miles has a quick and sharp edge to some of his posts. On others he is startlingly clear and insightful. I can say the same of just about every editor who joined the lynchmob here. You often make capable and productive contributions, and sometimes you are snide, obstinate and reckless. Some of you have impressive block records to prove it.

If there is to be an ANI concerning MilesMoney's behavior it should be a well-formulated complaint with a clear description of the complaint and supported by diffs which match the allegations and complaints. That's a core principle of WP process.

The subsection about Miles should be hatted and closed. The original BLP issue should be resolved. My personal view is that the EW/BLP-reverts have stopped and that the content issues are progressing satisfactorily on the content board, so that thread also can be closed at this time. If any of the editors on the ban-Miles thread wishes to open a separate, well formed ANI complaint against Miles they should do so. I don't think this is warranted at this time. Apparently no Admin saw fit to warn Miles, because only Srich has received a warning under the General Sanctions thus far.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SPECIFICO (talk • contribs)

This last comment is completely off topic. Moreover, I did not receive a "warning". I received a notice in which Mark Arsten said "I think it might have been inappropriate for you to close that discussion." I do not protest that notification; but, inserting it here, characterized as a "warning", is inappropriate. – S. Rich (talk) 06:23, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

@Srich32977: - Hello Srich32977. Here it is, in case you were not aware. This is the formal record pursuant to Community Sanctions. SPECIFICO talk 14:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

"In case you were not aware"? Duh, I quoted Mark's message. Why do you insist on harping on this point? "S.Rich received a message and MilesMoney did not, therefore MilesMoney should be exonerated." Is that your argument? – S. Rich (talk) 15:20, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

In case you were not aware that it was a formal notice under Sanctions and not just an ordinary course communication. No need for you to get your blood pressure up. Cheers. SPECIFICO talk 15:54, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

PROPOSAL: Close the Miles sections of this ANI with no action.

• Support - If editors wish to open a separate and well documented complaint, that is of course their right. SPECIFICO talk 02:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: BLP claims verifiably false I'm going to have to mull over your request, SPECIFICO, esp. in light of my suggestion below. However, I do have to note that the BLP charges for which Miles was accused of vandalism are verifiably false. In short, User:Arzel claims Miles added an edit which misrepresented the remarks of Professor Bernstein. However, I emailed Professor Bernstein and he said the remarks (added by me originally and reverted by Miles) did not misrepresent him. Case closed (I am happy to forward the email to the admin). I know consensus is supposed to determine these things, but consensus based on a verifiably false premise can't be worth anything. Steeletrap (talk) 03:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I provided an example or two of continuing problems and there was at the time an entire thread visible here that included various links etc on the general LvMI subject. This request for re-opening seems itself to border on being an example of the tendentious type of behaviour that has become such a problem in the area of WP. I'm not even sure that I want to even get involved in !voting again as it will likely only encourage further examples.

  Specifico, you have had comments about your own issues in this regard (eg: here and here) and, like MilesMoney, you exercised your right to ban someone from your talk page, as here. (MM had banned four people - me, Srich, MrX and Adjwilley). Despite not wanting to interact with said people on your talk pages, both of you have been happy to interact with them on their talk pages, which seems like a case of double-standards. Please also bear in mind since the original closure of this thread, MilesMoney cleared their talk page and posted some philosophical meanderings that seem to border on indicating that they saw their involvement in Wikipedia as an experiment in how far they could go/how the community would react - they were always pushing the boundaries and admit that they stayed around "exactly two weeks longer than [their] initial estimate". As with anywhere else in the world, if you go looking for trouble then you'll quite likely find it. - Sitush (talk) 04:34, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, Specifico claims above that MilesMoney was not warned of the sanctions. MilesMoney took part in the discussion that gave rise to the general sanctions, which was archived only hours ago. They'd also been warned of sanctions on the related Ayn Rand subject and have had umpteen other warnings and advisory comments. Pages such as the LvMI talk have also had the GS template in place. - Sitush (talk) 05:14, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

@Sitush: - Excuse me, Sitush. Where did I state that MilesMoney was not warned of the Sanctions? Diff, please. Unfortunately, and WP's Founding Principles to the contrary notwithstanding, it appears that unfounded assertions are too often accepted as fact. Please provide a diff, or correct and revise your statement about me. This kind of disregard for verification of evidence and "fact" is another example as to why Due Process demands we close this and open a properly constituted thread concerning MilesMoney. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 14:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

You said Apparently no Admin saw fit to warn Miles, because only Srich has received a warning under the General Sanctions thus far in your opening comment above, where it seems that you also misrepresented what had happened to Srich (at least, you did according to Srich - I haven't checked it). - Sitush (talk) 14:58, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Right. As the context should have made clear, my point was not that MilesMoney was unaware of the Sanctions. It was, instead, that no Admin had issued a warning/notice to MilesMoney per the Sanctions for any behavior which would -- if continued -- have warranted a ban. I will try to be more clear in the future. Srich did receive such a warning/notice, despite his denial, and it can be seen on the log for the Sanctions. You would also know that if you had brought yourself up to date reading this ANI thread, before accusing me of misrepresenting the matter. While you're here, why not check out Srich's table which purports to be evidence and look at the context and substance of the entire diffs. I suspect that most people, when looking at that table, would think that it was Miles who is accused of the acts written in bold type in the second column. The table gives a very different impression after one invests the time to read and research the underlying data. It's unfortunate that the editor who posted the table gave no narrative or explanation as to the meaning he was intending to assert and how it was supported by his table. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 20:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

You can be as specious as you wish, Specifico. It is often the way of people who are righteous but lacking a leg to stand on. As I recall, you were opposing the sanctions at one point even though you admitted to not knowing how they worked/what such things were. (I'll find the diff if you want). It seems that you're still a bit off-kilter: please note that no general sanctions regime is required in order to propose/implement a topic ban at ANI. Anyone can be topic banned at any time if the consensus is in favour of that. I've no idea what the Srich table said and nor am I particularly interested: I'd seen enough tendentiousness to form my own opinion and I gave an example of it. - Sitush (talk) 21:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I am afraid that, from the evidence presented above, MilesMoney shows every sign of being a POV-warrior who is unable to edit neutrally and collaboratively in this area. Neljack (talk) 12:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose The one good thing about MilesMoney was he ticked off so many people that he brought them to articles like Mises Institute to see the policy-violating editing being done and supported by the couple editors who he worked with to add huge amounts of negative material to a series of articles - mostly BLPS - of individuals involved, even loosely, with the iInstitute. Nevertheless, such disruptive editing just drives people away from Wikipedia - I'm now only very reluctantly involved at all, and mostly to deal with these serious editing issues. Editors knowing they can work together to tarnish reputations along a whole spectrum of articles by adding poorly sourced POV smear material based on the flimsiest of evidence is a great way to turn Wikipedia into the National Enquirer. That's why WP:BLP reads: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. User:Carolmooredc 14:01, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Note to all editors and Admins Fellow editors on this board, per WP community norms, who will join me in asking Carolmooredc to provide documented evidence of these alleged BLP violations by the accused MilesMoney? @Carolmooredc: Please document MilesMoney's BLP violations and "huge amounts of negative material" which you assert. I expect my fellow editors, per WP due process, to require diffs to support the above statement concerning alleged BLP abuse by MilesMoney. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 14:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

My, my. With all the other generalized comments without diffs that have been posted above, I find it interesting that you single out me for a specific request. Have something else to do right now, but by end of day shall easily find a few where either he does it or he vehemently supports another editor doing it (including reverts). It will be my pleasure. (Unless an admin says it's unnecessary, of course.) User:Carolmooredc 14:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi @Carolmooredc: - I am not singling you out, Carolmooredc. In my first statement above I called for the closing of this ANI due to my observation that most of the assembled editors commented without diffs or documentation. That is why I view this thread as a lynching and call for closure so that a proper thread can be opened according to due process. If the credibility of WP process is undermined by failure to adhere to what amounts to WP's Bill of Rights, then the stature of WP as a whole is degraded. I suspect that you share my concern for civil liberties, due process, and the rights of even the despicable accused, so I ask you to join me in calling for a fresh thread here and closure/abandonment of the current ANI. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 14:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Since MilesMoney seems to have accepted the ban, I've only spent 40 minutes finding a few of the examples of questionable BLP activity, more with talk page discussion headers than diffs. These only go back to Sept 30 when the "newbie" issue less relevant. In short, MilesMoney supports using poor sources to push a negative POV against certain libertarians and Austrian economists (including within articles about their organizations), working with two other editors who do the same.

• As Binksternet wrote during the Ludwig von Mises Institute discussion here MilesMoney antics distracted from the POV editing of two other editors who “show certain parties in a positive light, and just as slowly but surely highlights the negative.” I personally think his antics helped support their POV edits.
• The Mises Institute is a cult section supports using dubious refs to make the point that critics have compared the followers of Rothbard to a cult. (Many named individuals are in the article.) More discussion of Institute as a cult here. (MilesMoney edit warring with other editors on this issue led to protection of the article.)
• In current WP:RSN discussions on 1) Volokh Conspiracy and 2) three other dubious sources, MilesMoney supports questionable sources which attack both the institute and its members (also supported primarily by the two editors he usually agrees with).
• Support for using non-WP:RS to make a negative claim in a bio that led to this discussion: Talk:Hans-Hermann_Hoppe#Matt_Bruenig_.26_Demos. MilesMoney edit which adds unsourced info about media credentials to back up his contention a source should be used.
• Defense of sources several editors find questionable on Talk:Gary_North_(economist)#Posting_Issues_with_Citations.2C_before_starting_another_Edit_war
  

Other non-libertarian BLP issues:

• This inaccurate claim that led to this discussion: Ted Cruz' Canadian birth .
• Snotty comment about subject of a BLP (a physicist who philosophizes.)

Not a perfect list, but since SPECIFICO seemed so anxious for it... User:Carolmooredc 01:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

But @Carolmooredc: Those are BLP issues only either in your own mind or allegations of BLP issues, later rejected, which various editors have used to suppress well-sourced article content. The Bernstein blog which is ostensibly the subject of this ANI is a recent case in point. The BLP claim has been scrutinized and is no longer finding any support. Somehow, nonetheless in your mind even wrongful accusations -- of BLP abuse, sockpuppetry, or anything else -- live on as settled fact which you can cite to mislead others too naive to doubt your word or too busy to check the facts. Any newcomers to Carolmoore's style on these ANIs can review the recent von Mieses Institute ANI of last week or for another great example, the ANI she brought against me around July 1 which was on its way to a WP:BOOMERANG block for Carolmooredc until she ended the mess by voluntarily declaring she'd stop editing the affected articles. I know of very few experienced editors who take your statements at face value, Carol. SPECIFICO talk 02:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Bernstein - pretty much dismissed at RSN here - is not even in Ludwig von Mises Institute any more. Show me the diffs of the other accusations, as I showed you mine... Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 02:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

"pretty much dismissed"? The response to the RSN has been mixed; there is no consensus yet. It's out of the article because the "biased" users who support its addition are content to wait out the process. Steeletrap (talk) 02:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I struck Volokh Conspiracy from listing above since saw he didn't comment there. First, it's clear that most editors at WP:RSN do agree it's undue weight and on those grounds should be removed. People mentioned SPS a couple times as well and lack of expertise. It still looks like an unedited, negative personal opinion blog entry. I don't see any ref that he's a "libertarian" or an expert on the topic in his article bio. User:Carolmooredc 13:16, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Carol, that's another misrepresentation. Any editor who wishes to verify that Carol has misrepresented that thread can read it. Of course that's a huge expenditure of time which should be unnecessary if we knew we could rely on Carolmooredc's statements. Editors of many stripes at the RSN thread have distinguished between the Weight issue and the RS issue, the current inclination being that it is indeed RS but may still be Undue, and editors are preparing to take the weight issue to the article talk page. Carolmooredc, if you ask me, your stream of misrepresentation, personal invective, and fantasy is the very essence of tendentious editing. It confuses rational WP process and wastes huge amounts of editor and Admin resources. In fact, from a purely strategic point of view, I can see why this passive-aggressive kind of obstruction could be effective. Most editors will not waste their time verifying piles and piles of garbled assertions and links to off-topic half truth and misrepresented narrative. Editors who care to invest (waste) some time in verifying my statement can look up and read the voluminous files of carolmooredc's failed Noticeboard filings over the past six months. SPECIFICO talk 13:48, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

People can interpret things differently, obviously. I think your main problem with me is a produce too many diffs... User:Carolmooredc 14:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose, his tendentious editing on Ayn Rand prevented reasonable progress on that article for weeks or even months. Yworo (talk) 06:12, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose No new evidence has been presented to require re-opening the thread. TFD (talk) 12:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello TFD. The thread has already been reopened. The close and block were undone. The proposal I made was to WP:BLOWITUP and start over with a clearly stated and documented ANI against Miles if any editor chooses to file one. This thread is long on accusation and anger and short on evidence or policy-based discussion of an appropriate remedy. I have seen a few snippy posts MilesMoney made to you. I've also seen much good substantive discussion and collaboration with you. SPECIFICO talk 13:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose, trout SPECIFICO for the ludicrous attempts to allow MilesMoney to continue to be abusive. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, I see nothing at all to make me feel my last vote was wrong. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:16, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Based on your terrible behavior [36], it should be clear to any impartial observer that your view is too biased for us to take it seriously. MilesMoney (talk) 19:22, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Ya, cos of course your first encounter with me was, you templating my talk page for being disruptive, over a single edit. You threatened me with sanctions, over that one edit. And all I had done was remove a crappy blog source. So take a guess as to why I think you are a tendentious editor? Darkness Shines (talk) 19:43, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Translation: You reacted with hostility when I templated you for your disruptive edit, so now you're here, calling for my head. Like I said, you are someone whose bias against me is so extreme that your motives are suspect. Your vote should be disregarded. MilesMoney (talk) 20:22, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support This thread is going nowhere and is flooded by heavily involved users. The above, uninvolved user Analyst's attempt to close the thread is spot on, and his reasoning for doing so sound. Steeletrap (talk) 17:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Miles' response to diffs

Preamble: I think User Miles should have the opportunity to respond to some or all of the diffs Srich provides, and I request he do in the place I've provided below. I simply don't see what would be the harm in allowing him to do so, even if it takes a few days to a week. The right to be heard is a pretty important component of any legitimate disciplinary hearing, and he hasn't yet had the chance to respond to Rich's (extremely extensive) post. Without looking at them all, it appears to me that some of the diffs Rich posts (most to all of which appear to be drawn from when Miles was a noob, and could not be expected to know all the policies) constitute policy violations, but others (particularly within the last couple months, when he was no longer a noob) do not. To prevent the possibility that they are being quoted out of context, Miles should have the opportunity to contextualize his remarks. If, for instance, one of his "PA"s came in response to a PA being leveled at him, while his response may have been inappropriate, it is certainly much more understandable than an unprovoked remark. I already see that one remark appears to have been lifted out of context (from 9/27), insofar as it was directed at a user who was engaged in disruptive editing, rather than a user who simply disagreed with Miles. Miles should also have the opportunity to provide a general response to the allegations. Steeletrap (talk) 04:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

If MM wants to post then they can. Inserting yet another section, as you have here, is pretty typical of how this entire Austrian Economics mess has become so convoluted. People seem to be using a plethora of section headings etc almost as a way of making point-y comments. - Sitush (talk) 04:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

... A MilesMoney example of which can be seen here. - Sitush (talk) 05:01, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

MilesMoney was kind enough to post a link to an old sandbox page on which I was working. Doing so saved me the "embarrassment" of posting the 80+diff TLDR table above. But MilesMoney' linking served to show that he was aware of what might have come about if he had protested too much. It is not pertinent (or fair) to suggest that my draft (unposted) had anything out of context. (After all, the magic of diffs is that editors can look at the before and after threads.) Still, if anything – anything – on my listing (posted or unposted) is unfair or inappropriate, I invite editors to contact me on my talk page and point out errors, etc. I've made mistakes before, and I've owned up to mistakes when I was wrong. So I will make changes as appropriate. But given the overall theme of MilesMoney's participation in the project, I do not think changes to my diff listings will make much difference. – S. Rich (talk) 06:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Miles' remarks

To the best of my understanding, this entire sub-report about a topic ban is out of order; it is in violation of Wikipedia policy. As such, the correct response by admins is to close without action. This does not prevent anyone from deciding to follow the rules and open a legitimate report against me, but this report is not legitimate.

If no admin is willing to abort this sub-report, then I will defend myself. Otherwise, anything I say in my own defense now would only add legitimacy to the illegitimate. MilesMoney (talk) 15:43, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I have been informed by email that, even though I consider this sub-report to be illegitimate, based on what policy says, if I do not respond here, the response on my talk page will be ignored. Therefore, and only under protest, I am moving it here. Please do not take this move as any sort of acknowledgement of legitimacy. MilesMoney (talk) 18:51, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Cherry-picked diffs by Srich32977

One way or another, it looks like I need to address the table of diffs that TParis highlighted as the key to his attempt to ban me. I won't give life to the illegitimate ANI by participating it, but the claims deserve a response, as they'll invariably be brought up again in future attempts. Keep in mind that I've been rather busy in real life and haven't had the time to do all the research and put this all together. In fact, as soon as I post this, I'm going to have to go away for a little bit.

Rich had been accumulating these diffs for some time, and he admitted that his only goal was to spring them on me when the opportunity presented itself during unrelated drama. He did not act in good faith by talking to me about his concerns, either informally or through an RFC/U. There was nothing constructive about it; he just wanted to get rid of me, and he said as much.

That was his goal, and his method was to find things which he hoped would look bad if carefully quoted out of context. His method was death by gotcha sound bites. He acted in bad faith even when it came to the contents, counting on nobody taking the time to dig deeper and see for themselves. Based on the comments on ANI, he was right.

So what I'm going to do here is briefly add context, talking about the circumstances and perhaps adding quotes. I won't get defensive and I won't claim innocence, just lack of guilt. My claim is that these quotes do not represent an honest reflection of my behavior, nor do they indicate anything other than constant improvement. I fully realize that any attempt to explain, much less excuse, my previous behavior can be used against me as an argument that I am unrepentant. I trust that you can see through the circularity of that argument, however.

1) The Arzel diff is dated July 23, placing it within my first week of editing. On that basis alone, it should be disregarded, especially considering that I'd never even heard of WP:CIVIL. But I want to discuss context and motivation.

Arzel was basically my welcome wagon to Wikipedia, which is to say that he bit me hard. He reverted my changes on multiple articles, to the point where I genuinely felt that he was stalking me, and said so. Despite what he later claimed, some of his reverts were to articles he'd never edited before, where he'd apparently followed me.

Still, if you're looking for something vulgar, or a personal attack, you won't find it here. The most aggressive part was a reflection of my naiveté; I didn't understand how things worked so I imagined that promising to report someone for bad behavior would have some effect.

By the way, I wasn't paranoid to think that Arzel held a grudge against me. He later filed a report against me on ANI, trying to get me blocked for good. This was dismissed with instructions to take it to WP:RSN. He also supported the SPI that attempted to have me blocked, and he even filed the meritless WP:BLPN report that culminated in the attempted topic ban.

As an aside, I find it bizarre that people like Arzel, AQFK, Binkersnet, Carol, Darkness Shines, RL0919, Sitush, Yworo and Rich, who very clearly see themselves as my die-hard opponents, are permitted to vote on a topic ban. Why would we expect them to be impartial or fair? Why would we give their views any weight? The whole point of saying it's not a vote is that we have to look deeper than how many thumbs are pointed down. I demand a jury of my peers, not my sworn enemies!

2) The StAnselm diff is more of the same. It came on July 28, only days after the Arzel diff, making it irrelevant because of how close it is to my start. Still, let's look at the context.

StAnselm removed a citation, leaving the comment "removed dubious claim per talk page discussion". I restored it, with the comment, "StAnselm's edit comment was untrue; he didn't remove any dubious claims or any claims, just a ref, so I put it back". Even then, I knew it was wrong to leave an edit comment that misrepresented the contents of an edit. When I followed up on their talk page, I said I would report them for lying.

If I'd known about civility, I would probably not used the word "lying". If I'd known how inconsistently the rules are enforced, I wouldn't have bothered saying I'd report them. While it may not be ideally civil to call it a lie, it is factually correct that he was lying.

3) The RL0919 diff is interesting. Let's look at the context.

This is about a month after I started, and I'd found that RL opposed pretty much every change I suggested to Ayn Rand. Why? Well, it turns out that he's a super-fan. He even hosts an authoritative web site dedicated to Rand. So he's very aggressive in maintaining the sanctity of her biography against facts that he doesn't like.

What led to this comment was his bizarre claim that he didn't know what "popular philosophy" even meant. Given that he said he didn't even understand what the words meant, I took that as an admission that he was not WP:COMPETENT to edit the part of the article that was to use those words. Alternately, if you disbelieve his statement, then he wasn't incompetent, just being an obstructionist.

Regardless, I didn't see why we should give weight to his opinion after he admits that he has no understanding of the issue, and that's what I said. I recommend that you read the entire comment for yourself. You'll note that there's no vulgarity, and that the reference to competence was to WP:COMPETENT, and not a personal attack. Even though the comment was an expression of my frustration with him, I ended by explaining that this wasn't intended as an insult.

"Now, I can't stop you from taking this as an insult, but it's really all about your demonstrated behavior and ability, so it's not personal at all. I don't hate you, I just don't think your opinion about Ayn Rand can be trusted, so I can't give it any weight at all."

I'll also point out that RL's response was pretty aggressive, but I didn't take the bait.

4) The RenRen8123 diff is among the strangest of Rich's picks.

Ren was an account with very few edits, but the only talk page he ever touched was Rich's. He didn't discuss Ayn Rand, he just edit-warred with insulting comments like, "Undid an edit by a very persistent vandal[...]" .

I took offense to being called a vandal, so I asked him to stop calling me one, which I believe is entirely reasonable. Still, no vulgarity, no personal attacks. The naïve part, again, was my notion that he could be blocked for such behavior, but I'd been editing for less than a month at the time, so I didn't know any better.

5) The Binkersnet diff is a fine example of missing context.

Bink had made some huge factual errors when editing Hans-Hermann Hoppe, leading SPECIFICO and Steeletrap to bring up WP:COMPETENCE. They each linked to the policy to make it clear that this wasn't a personal attack. I came in at the end, read the entire thread, and was bothered by Bink's statement about refusing to accept that he might not be competent to edit on this topic that he apparently knows nothing about and has done no research on. The gist of my post is that he shouldn't take it as a personal attack, and that he should instead consider that maybe he doesn't know enough about the field to understand that there's more to know.

Out of context, my comment about lots of people calling him incompetent could look like a personal attack. In context, it's clearly not. My comment was constructive criticism that RL rejected.

6) The DagonAmigaOS diff is somewhat ironic. My crime here was that I briefly and politely referred to Dagon's edits as "tendentious", which is precisely what AQFK did in his illegitimate sub-report. Now, Rich conveniently quoted Dagon's response about how a single edit can't be tendentious. However, this isn't true.

Dagon is an WP:SPI whose edits were confined to Ayn Rand and Objectivism. They briefly edited under an IP before creating this account, and those edits were likewise constrained. Their goal was much like RL's -- to make Ayn look perfect despite the facts -- but they were less subtle and more... tendentious.

In this context, it's clear that there's absolutely nothing wrong with what I did here.

7) The first Arsten diff was apparently chosen because I referred to an unspecified group of editors as "POV-pushers". What's strange here is that, on the ANI, Neljack called me one! If this is tendentious, why isn't Neljack banned? If it's not, then why is it being brought up? I don't appreciate the double standard.

Besides, the quote was carefully cut out of context to make it look worse. The previous sentence was: "As for consensus, the problem we're having is that Rand is very popular, which is to say she has many fans who are apparently more interested in the article making her look perfect than being accurate." The sentence Rich chose was referring to these "many fans who are apparently more interested in the article making her look perfect than being accurate" as "POV-pushers" in summary. In other words, I wasn't using it as an insult or attack, just a pronoun.

8) The second Arsten diff is actually a response to Arzel, who was himself responding to the diff immediately above.

So what did Arzel say? He said: "What a load of BS. The version frozen definately does not have any concensus regardless of the lack of good faith illustrated by MM." I consider this to be a rather aggressive comment, and certainly not civil. Arzel is a long-time editor, not someone who started in July, so he should know better.

I urge you to read my response to this, as it was quite mild despite the provocation. I pointed out his incivility in passing, then redirected back to the subject of the discussion. I think that was actually quite well done. Many editors would have taken the bait and responded in kind, but not me. How this is "tendentious" eludes me.

9) The 198.228.217.149 diff is pure cherry-picking. The IP was an apparent sock, one of a few IP editors in the same geographical region who made the same edit.

I suppose I could have tossed some formal template on their talk page. What I did was to write a polite personal note, encouraging them to create an account, join the talk page discussion and read up on reliable source policies. Please read it; I'm proud of it.

10) The Adjwilley diff is a can of worms, but it's a relevant one. Before I get into it, I want to point out that this is the only diff submitted by Rich that was in the last month. All of the previous ones reflect my behavior before I had gotten the hang of civility.

Early on, Adjwilley filed an SPI against me to get me blocked, but it had no merit. He never let go, though. Even in his response, he once again repeats the rejected sock puppet accusation (though I don't take the bait). Carol, who voted for banning me, likewise repeated it, on ANI. It seems as though, for some of the people voting to get rid of me, it's not about me, it's about their delusion that I'm the ghost of someone else. I would suggest that anyone who believes this conspiracy theory should not get to vote.

The context of the diff is that I encountered some obvious meat puppetry, later traced definitively to a subreddit, so I filed an SPI. Orlady brought up the failed SPI against me in an attempt to discredit the one I'd just filed, which was kind of bizarre. In my response, I contrasted myself with Adjwilley, in that I had a clean track record with regard to filing SPI's. This angered Adjwilley so he attacked me. Please read my full response and consider how mild it is given the circumstances. Even calling his SPI a witch hunt isn't particularly extreme given the context, although I'd probably avoid that term in hindsight.

On a side note, I've been calling the illegitimate ANI sub-report a lynch mob, but I didn't originate the term. It came from a message I received from an admin who used that term and said that admins have little ability to stop such mobs. I'd like to see someone prove them wrong.

Again, I fully expect someone to spin my self-defense as proof that I'm unrepentant, but that's just nonsense. As I made clear above, I had no concept of civility when I started and I allowed myself to be baited. In recent time, this has changed. I am unfailingly polite, even in the face of extreme provocation. I'm not perfect, I'm not an angel, but I'm visibly improved over when I started; I control my temper.

I'm going to just throw something out there. If you look at the complaints, are they about my behavior or are they about content? The impression I get from the comments on the ANI is that they're angry with me for opposing them on content issues, and it doesn't really matter to them that I follow all of the rules. When I insist that they follow the rules, such as by filing a legitimate RFC/U instead of this illegitimate ANI sub-report, they don't see to care, either.

Is Wikipedia a popularity contest or a reasonable, orderly environment where we don't pretend that disagreement is sufficient basis for assassination? MilesMoney (talk) 18:23, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

User discussion

MilesMoney has responded to the block on his talk page. Wikipedia editors are "are increasingly inbred and crazed." They "lie, scheme and cheat to get their way." "The worst part of Wikipedia is not how it provides a safe home for anti-social misfits, or scares away experts and academics, but how it twists the behavior of the relatively sane to turn them into zealots."[37] Editors can read the posting which contains more of the same. MilesMoney is not willing to edit cooperatively. The expression "inbred" is extremely insulting. He has the ability, but a break from editing may persuade him of the necessity. TFD (talk) 04:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

The language, while harsh, was not directed to a specific user (thus, no PA occured). Moreover, it was provoked by a frankly premature and unfair closure of the ANI. Perhaps recognizing the problem with the closure, the admin has re-opened the ANI.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Steeletrap (talk • contribs)

Note, I reopened the case because I received two good faith requests to do so; one of them being from you. There was nothing premature or unfair about it. Please do not infer my reasoning for reopening it, especially when I specifically told you via email what that reasoning was. Insulting me after I did you a favor is frankly rude.--v/r - TP 13:01, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

User:TParis, I basically said the same thing to you in our email exchange that I said above. I am surprised that you take this to be a PA. I believe that the closing was premature and wasn't fair to Miles. You're entitled to disagree, but I didn't make a PA. I certainly wasn't saying your intention was to close it prematurely (and as I say, many/most editors here disagree with my view in that regard). Steeletrap (talk) 02:33, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

TFD didn't say that it was a PA. You are deflecting. - Sitush (talk) 04:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

MilesMoney's comments make me think that an indefinite block or ban would be more appropriate. As with the Ted Cruz article, he is likely to take his tendentious editing to other areas. TFD (talk) 05:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

MilesMoney has responded to the reopening. See [38]. – S. Rich (talk) 06:32, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I assume that the reopening means a chance for MilesMoney to make a constructive comment and for other individuals who have not commented to do so. Not that it means previous comments will be ignored; probably not all previous posters saw the reopening or are not watching ANI now. (I thought at first Specifico had done it himself and had to search around for verification it was legit.)

Anyway, seeing others have chimed in yet again (even if they did forget to sign), I did so too, with a slightly different perspective than previously stated. User:Carolmooredc 14:06, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Further to your point, Carolmooredc, what is at stake here is much more than the future of User:MilesMoney. It's much larger. It's whether we as a community uphold the founding principles and ideals of WP. Due process and rational evidence-based consensus are core founding values must be upheld. @Carolmooredc: you have reminded us so many times of your commitment to WP that I hope you will join me in supporting closure of this thread, with the understanding that any editor may open an ANI against miles with a clearly stated, fully documented grievance and proposed remedy. As a libertarian I would hope your dedication to the rights of the accused would compel you to give this defendant his day in court according to our Founding Principles. We need to WP:BLOWITUP and start fresh. SPECIFICO talk 14:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

A founding principle, often abrogated by US Govt, is freedom of contract. When you edit wikipedia to enter into a contract to work within a community consensus process, as imperfect as it may be. And one of those consensus is if people bring one issue to an ANI and a related on pops up and a proposal is made within that ANI that Admins can act on that proposal. That is what is happening. Whether it was closed a day or two ago or will be closed in a day or two more, I think the outcome will be the same since MilesMoney has angered so many people. But more one the details later. Must run out now. User:Carolmooredc 14:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

The "defendant" has, in effect, confessed with this edit. He indicates that he expected to draw some type of sanction before he even started editing: "I came here to see just how little good I could do before I was attacked and finally shut down", which happened in "104 days, exactly two weeks longer than my initial estimate." He looks down upon other editors with "pity and disgust". We are "otakus", "inbred and crazed", "incompetents and sociopaths", etc. I didn't chime in to support this topic ban proposal before, despite having witnessed and having been the target of his hostilities. I thought perhaps the sanctions already applied to many of the topics where he was editing would work to reign him in and channel him to more productive behavior. Now, however, any assumption of good faith is shattered by his own admissions. --RL0919 (talk) 15:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

RL, do you really wish to assert that a person attacked by a lynchmob who expresses anger and contempt for the lynchmob is thereby validating its actions? This sounds like the Salem witch trials. BTW, I was quite surprised to see that MilesMoney posted some links to third party examination of the WP community which supported some of his views -- not that you and I agree with those views. SPECIFICO talk 15:21, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Specifico, your continued references to "lynchmob" etc are putting you on very thin ice here. You may not like the outcome and (presumably) you & Steeletrap convinced TParis to revert the closure pending further discussion, but repeated accusations of this type are not helpful. People have provided diffs, people have seen the past ANI threads and links thereto etc, and we have WP:CONSENSUS. Since Milesmoney has both shot themselves in the foot with their "post mortem" and then indicated that they have no intention of participating in this thread or even recognising the validity of it, I really don't see much point in prolonging this agony. At best, it is going to achieve nothing (MM has made his mind up); at worst, someone else is going to be sanctioned for PA, tendentiousness or something similar. - Sitush (talk) 15:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Milesmoney's conduct has defined tendentious editing. As far as I've seen, there are two Editors he gets along with, Specifico and Steeletrap. Everyone else, well, it depends on whether or not he agrees with their political stance. Abrasiveness seems to be tolerated in long-time Editors who make valuable contributions to article space. But Miles spends most (80%) of his edits on Talk Pages and Wiki-related pages like AN/I. Of course, that is not grounds for any kind of block or ban in itself, it just indicates that he seems to spend a fair amount of time and effort arguing.

That said, I wish MM would come to AN/I to discuss this rather than throwing in the towel as I read on User talk:MilesMoney#Post mortem. His behavior has alienated some Editors but if he could address his conduct, rather than characterize this discussion as a "lynching", something constructive might come out of this. As far as I've seen, Editors are not trying to drive him off WP, just get him to moderate his behavior. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:58, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't actually have a political stance. Rather, I'm motivated by what I see as intentional gaps in articles, where reliably-sourced facts are omitted because they don't sit well with the views of editors with strong opinions. So, for example, while I've edited [[[Ted Cruz]], I have no opinion about him as a politician and have no need to ever build one, as I cannot vote in the USA. I'm explain this to offer you insight into my motives.

When I started editing, I focused on changing articles. With articles that are controversial, this approach just doesn't work. I found that I need to spend more time supporting the proposed change than making it. The alternative is an edit war that quickly leads to the article being protected, and therefore to more debating. Based on this, I don't believe that the fact that I have so many talk page edits is any sort of negative.

To be very clear, I am not the one who brought up the notion that this is a lynching, although I can't disagree. I was told privately by an admin that this was a lynch mob and that no admin could do anything to stop it. I believe they were wrong on the latter part, although to be fair, no admin has even tried to stop it, so we don't know if they could.

The reason I agree with the characterization of this banning effort as a lynch mob is that it is the result of angry people who are not allowing the rules to stand in the way of their desired conclusion. This report is invalid in a variety of ways, which is one of the reasons I've avoided commenting on it after it was closed prematurely and only belatedly reopened. There is no pretense of neutrality, with almost everyone who's commented coming from the pool of "combatants".

There is one point where I must correct your views: These editors are not trying to get me to change my behavior, they're trying to get rid of me. A long, broad topic ban would prevent me from editing any of the articles I've worked on so far, excuse a few about my home town. At that point, there would be absolutely no reason for me to continue. This isn't an accident, it's the whole point of the ban. It's not a topic ban; it's a permanent ban. If they wanted to discuss my behavior, I have a talk page and I'd work with an RFC/U (though obviously not while under ban). MilesMoney (talk) 00:44, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Liz, reread the above discussions. Users are calling for a permanent topic ban, despite the fact that Miles has never been subject to any disciplinary action before. Steeletrap (talk) 18:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Basically, with the Sanctions now in place. It would be an airtight solution to issue a short ban or General Sanctions Notice to any editor on these articles, with the threat of Admin action upon any misdemeanor after return. Anything beyond that is punitive and as we know the purpose of bans on WP is remedial not punitive. SPECIFICO talk 19:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't get along with Miles but I think a topic ban of "Libertarianism" and all related topics is far too broad. By the way, this is exactly what I was concerned about when everyone voted for discretionary sanctions. I think that's all I'm going to say about that. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

[[User::Liz]], if all you want to say is that you oppose the proposed ban, please do so by voting to close this report without further action. I have, in practice, already been banned for days, yet Wikipedia has failed to turn into a libertarian paradise while I was silenced. MilesMoney (talk) 00:47, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

But this is even more problematic. With Sanctions, there's a clear notice before block and there's an uninvolved Admin taking responsibility for the block. Nobody particularly got along with Miles, but I'm very surprised to see the WP community apparently willing to take vengeance on an editor merely for reasoned advocacy (even if strident, it was reasoned) of good faith views. The Bernstein blog source turned out to be a false issue, and I don't see anyone calling for the necks of those who erroneously called it a BLP violation. SPECIFICO talk 00:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

An editor's antics can keep editors new to his editing so busy on talk pages and noticeboards trying to reason with him, that they don't jump straight to WP:ANI. But when they discover there is a related ANI and a lot of people are chiming in with horror stories, the consensus may become "topic ban this individual". (The fact these supporters of banning haven't all come back for the re-opening should not reduce the merit of their earlier words; it was not widely announced or people were just burned out. Mostly his two friendly advocates keep posting here over and over again, plus a couple more optimistic souls.)

His attitude about being topic banned was that of someone whose been there, done that before. He wrote on this talk page that his ban was after "104 days, exactly two weeks longer than my initial estimate" and "it was over before it began." Frankly I wonder if he is a sock puppet of StillStanding-247 -(See this Sockpuppet investigation) - who went through a number of processes to adjust to Wikipolicy, before admins gave up and banned him. There is solid evidence presented on the SPI page, even if the admin refused to do a check user - and StillStanding seemed sophisticated enough to get around it anyway.

In any case, I predict if MilesMoney is unbanned, we'll have more people coming more quickly to ANI to complain about his antics and yet another ban. User:Carolmooredc 01:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

@Carolmooredc:, you often remind us of your abiding dedication to the betterment of WP. It's hard for me to believe that your off-topic ruminations and incessant repetition of rejected claims and accusations are the kind of conduct which strengthens this community. By the way, I don't think you get it. MilesMoney has not been banned. This thread is open. But to address your speculations: IF @MilesMoney: were to roam free, and IF he behaves tendentiously or "abuses BLP and SPS" or whatever else has been hoisted up the pole here, then an Admin will give him a swift GS notice. And if MilesMoney breaches that notice/warning, he will vanish -- fulfilling your fondest hopes. That doesn't seem like a big risk to me, when compared with the alternative of killing off a knowledgeable, able, and occasionally snide contributor on account of lots of folks don't like him. If any of the many Admins with their eye on the Mises article had thought Miles' behavior was the violation asserted here by OP, then that Admin would have issued a warning notice to MilesMoney on the spot. But none of the watchful Admins saw the need for that. Hmmm... SPECIFICO talk 01:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, I've defended two Editors I thought were unfairly indefinitely blocked. It didn't matter that I didn't agree with either of the users, I criticized the process. It seems like there are times when there is a general feeling among regulars who pay attention to noticeboard discussions that a troublesome Editor needs some kind of block to call attention to their disruptive behavior. Then, someone who is fed up comes to the noticeboard with some example of misbehavior or a violation of the rules. It can take several times for an Editor to be brought up on a noticeboard before it is followed up by a block. But there comes a point where there are more annoyed Editors and Admins than defenders, the evidence against the Editor has grown and a block is imposed. And it seems like because the annoyance is higher than normal, AN/I blocks seem to be harsher than normal blocks, and warnings are often bypassed because action on AN/I moves swiftly (sometimes in a matter of hours, not days).

I will say that I admire you, or anyone, sticking up for an Editor based on a belief that a block was unfairly harsh or long. But I can say from experience that some will attack you for doing this. Defending an Editor that the community is fed up with will not make you popular. Going against the tide has its costs. Just thought I should give you a head's up. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Liz, the respect is mutual. I hope it's clear that MilesMoney, whoever (s)he is, means nothing to me. Just a bunch of particularly agitated electrons on my screen. What matters, though is how very disappointed I am to see that the longtime editors and Admins who watch these boards care so little about keeping the ANI threads on some kind of even keel of policy, fact-based discourse, and civility. SPECIFICO talk 02:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

since we're talking in general terms about defending the - undefendable?? :-)...I'll have to look for SPECIFICO's defenses of topic or banned editors Xerographica and Byelf2007 who who worked on Austrian economics articles earlier this year. Of course, defending one's compatriot in arms is only self-defense... User:Carolmooredc 02:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm an old ACLU type, it's tru. Now, who will defend you one day? That's interesting to consider. SPECIFICO talk 02:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I expect SPECIFICO's ACLU background, support of free speech and general commitment to libertarianism is what animates him/her to improve these articles. Many supposed supporters of LvMI want to censor their (RS-covered) views, whether it's Lew's AIDS Denial; Ron Paul's creationism; Rothbard's skepticism of evolution, support of torturing criminal suspects, opposition to MLK, promotion of Holocaust denying "historians", and support for letting children starve to death; Hoppe's support for "physically removing" the "habitual advocates of homosexuality" from society; and Gary North's support for stoning gays to death. We oppose censorship and believe these men are entitled to express their views in the public square. Steeletrap (talk) 02:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

[Insert] Steeletrap's comments above betray his hostility to these people, which MilesMoney more obnoxiously supports, adding his own disruptive style. Steeletrap only writes on these topics which he evidently spends hours researching; often presents WP:Self-published blog entries and we have to keep going back to WP:RSN again and again about them; presents the material in a usually biased and exaggerated way, with big section headers for even minor faux pas and sentence after sentence describing them. No matter how many times I have quoted WP:BLP on NPOV and balance and "not a tabloid", he ignores it. He and SPECIFICO (and doubtless MilesMoney) also remove perfectly WP:RS neutral factual material on the flimsiest of excuses, which has been discussed over and over on various article talk pages like Murray Rothbard and Jesus Huerta de Soto. Between dealing with the WP:Undue material and non-RS added and fighting over the neutral material deleted, the articles become WP:Attack pieces. User:Carolmooredc 13:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC) |

Carol, please strike your false assertions from the text (e.g. that I only write on these topics, when I've made hundreds of edits to non-Mises related pages). The above are illustrations of the views of these scholars, which are not attacks, but constitute factual information about their fringe views. When RS cover their fringe views, I've inserted them. Before I came here, the articles were typically hagiographies (Most of the ones I've encountered were largely written by an employee of the Mises Institute, and at least one was self-authored) which omitted the controversial views and associations of the authors. You should be happy that's changed, per WP:NPOV. But I don't think you're too concerned about neutrality, given that you ignored the massive problems with these articles for years. You're instead concerned with presenting Mises scholars positively, which is not the point of Wikipedia. Steeletrap (talk) 18:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, you have been told previously that I prefer to be referred to by the female pronoun. Typically I would of course accord this sort of thing a good faith assumption, but given your prior remarks about my self-identification (e.g. replying to a post where I identify as a (trans) female by linking to an essay which says m-f trans people cannnot be female), I feel no obligation to do so. Please modify your remarks accordingly. Steeletrap (talk) 05:49, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

[Insert:After SPECIFICO harassment on my talk page about this issue, I just noticed this note. All I remember is Steeletrap comments about being transgender (which swings both ways) and one comment supporting Wikipedia downplaying Bill Clinton's sexual attacks on women as a mere public image problem by proclaiming being a proud woman. That could mean they are a proud female now who intends to be a proud male later, or vice versa. So please don't make statements you cannot support. User:Carolmooredc 16:25, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Carol, you're just not telling the truth. I or other users have said to you on numerous occasions that I identify as a woman. You responded in one case to my self-identification as a woman (1) by linking to womyn born womyn, a page devoted to the proposition that transgender women aren't women (and that only those assigned the female gender at birth are). Every WP users is entitled hold intolerant views, but in this context you clearly intended to personalize them, which is unacceptable. Steeletrap (talk) 17:24, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The diff you link to is the one that I was thinking of though frankly I didn't think it worth looking up. You can infer from ambiguous statements what you like. Please stop harassing me about this. If you feel there is a policy violation, deal with it separately. User:Carolmooredc 18:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Reminder – this portion of the discussion is regarding MilesMoney and whether the topic ban on MM should be modified. Unsigned by Srich32977 02:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Correction - Srich, you know perfectly well that there is no topic ban on MM. This thread has not been closed. Please strike that comment, which is false and prejudicial. SPECIFICO talk 03:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Let the admin comment on whether it is modified or withdrawn for now. Not clear to me.

In any case, the bottom line is SRich presented a whole chart above of bad behavior by MilesMoney; a few other editor, including myself, added more diffs and links; editors have been topic banned for so much less. The constant carping accusations of two editors who work closely with MilesMoney should not be allowed to twist the process, especially when, IMHO, these editors actually rely on MilesMoneys antics to distract people from their own questionable edits and even to drive NPOV editors off articles. Carping in response to carping... User:Carolmooredc 13:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

@Carolmooredc: Have you followed the alleged misbehavior listed in Srich32977's table? If so, I'd appreciate it if you'd explain how, for each line, this documents misbehavior by MilesMoney. For example, we see the text stalking in bold in line 1. Do you think that means MilesMoney was stalking? If so, you didn't read the links. It turns out that Arzel was stalking Miles and Miles asked him to stop. Similarly we see other words (disingenuously? -- shouting?) bolded by Srich but it turns out that those are words which Miles is using and not acts which MilesMoney is committing. So, carolmooredc, please refer to the table and explain to the group here how and why you believe that this table demonstrates serious offenses by User:Milesmoney. Let's uphold the Founding Principles of WP and, if action is to be taken, dedicate ourselves to evidence-based and rational decisions. We must not act from casual judgment and personal frustration. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 14:25, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You can feel free to debunk accusations against your comrade in arms anywhere you please in this ANI. I've more than adequately had my say. User:Carolmooredc 14:45, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Admin note I've completely withdrawn the close and topic ban. I continue to consider myself uninvolved, however. I agree that a new admin closing it would be preferred, but I'm not opposed to determining what the current consensus is if someone requests the thread to be closed.--v/r - TP 12:49, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

[Insert to TParis]Requested formally here. Hope that helps. User:Carolmooredc 14:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

[insert]Closure would be premature at this time, as there is ongoing discussion. MilesMoney has not edited articles during this ANI, and there is nothing to be gained from hasty closure at the expense of consensus resolution -- which we most certainly and evidently do not have at this time. SPECIFICO talk 15:16, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Two points – One: the bold typeface in the table simply reflects the various section headings that MilesMoney posted, and the table heading says so. Two: rather than continue this "discussion" (in which MilesMoney has not participated), I think posting an WP:ANRFC is the best course of action. – S. Rich (talk) 14:43, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

So, Srich, if I understand your proposal it is consistent with mine above -- to wit -- that this thread be closed with no action, no block for MilesMoney, and then that you will open an RFC/U for MilesMoney? If so, please register your support above. I am not familiar with RFC/U but I commend you for your support of closure here and I will read up on RFC/U today when I have a break in my schedule. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 14:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

e.c. RfC/U are not supposed to be brought by cheerleaders for the subject. See WP:RFC/U "WP:RFC/U is an informal non-binding process enabling users to discuss problems with specific editors who may have violated Wikipedia policies and guidelines." Should such an RfC/U ensure, I assume we'll be able to notify every participant in this discussion? User:Carolmooredc 14:57, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Specifico, you do not understand. A closure means the admin makes a decision, and does not simply stop a discussion. But your description of my proposal is a distortion of what I have said. I think the topic ban on MM should be instituted (and I would actually block MM based on his "fuck Wikipedia" comments if nothing else). You are correct in one sense, you do not know anything about RFC/U – that process requires some participation from the involved editor, which MM gives no indication of wanting. And given the interaction that many editors have had with MM, I doubt that many would have the stomach to engage MM in such a forum. Why do I say you are distorting my statement? You suggest my position is "consistent with" yours. There is no truth in that statement. – S. Rich (talk) 15:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

What you are saying is untrue. In fact, I requested an RFC/U. This is incompatible with your claim that I am unwilling to participate in it. Please retract your false statement immediately. MilesMoney (talk) 18:49, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

@MilesMoney: You mentioned RFC/U here on 28 October [39], but it does not look like a "request". I do not see other mentions, much less a request, anywhere else. But if you will provide a diff showing you want an RFC/U or requested an RFC/U, I shall retract the statement. As it stands, your assertion of my making a false/untrue statement is incorrect. – S. Rich (talk) 19:05, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I mentioned it a number of times, including this one. I believe it's time for you to retract that false statement. MilesMoney (talk) 19:12, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The diff you posted goes to the same edit I posted. Please provide diffs for the "number of times" where you said you wanted a RFC/U. Still, if you could convince editors that you were willing to participate in the RFC/U process, in accordance with WP:Requests for comment/User conduct/Guidance2, I'd be amazed. – S. Rich (talk) 19:32, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

My initial response to the out-of-order ban attempt was: "Instead, I open my talk page to anyone who wants to share their concerns with me one-on-one. If you're bashful, I also accept email." I think this makes it painfully clear that I gave indication of a willingness for "participation from the involved editor". Now retract your false statement. MilesMoney (talk) 19:35, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that you get to choose the venue. Even your supporters here seem to be expecting you to respond at this venue: one of them even created a separate subheading just for you. - Sitush (talk) 20:26, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't? AQFK chose this venue for a BLP report even when there was an active report on [[[WP:BLPN]]. Why is there a separate set of standards for me? Besides, it's not that I'm shopping for a venue, the way they did, it's that this is the wrong venue, the sub-report is illegitimate because it violated policy, and there have been multiple irregularities, including a premature close. If you still believe this is an ANI issue, the proper action is to abort this report and begin a valid one. Start by actually notifying me, the way you're obligated to. Then give me adequate time to defend myself, as opposed to closing it while everyone sleeps.

But, hey, that would be fair. And this shows that you've got a WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality, and have tried repeatedly to intimidate and harass me. You shouldn't even be here, arguing for my removal. You should, in fact, be blocked for your poor behavior. Given your huge grudge, your opinion of me is not something that any admin should take seriously. MilesMoney (talk) 00:05, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The following is moved from the previous section:

Regarding diff 5, Miles characterizes me as having made "some huge factual errors" when editing Hans-Hermann Hoppe, however the only editing I had done on that article prior to his pile-on insult was this change to a subheader, and a second identical change after being reverted. I changed the subheader so that the section was not about "physical removal of homosexuals" but to be about "restrictive libertarian covenant communities". I did this after reading the literature about this passage, and figuring out what the published sources were saying about it, so there were no "huge factual errors" involved. It is instructive to look at the current version of the subheader, one that I suggested and everyone there accepted: "Intolerance in covenant communities".[40] The "huge errors" Miles thinks I made are actually worked into the current version in a not-very-different wording. His insulting comment about my competency apparently came after he did no research for himself. This action of his is a perfect example of the way he works on Wikipedia: he decides who he likes and doesn't like, he adds his weight in numbers and hostile comments, and he joins arguments and edit wars without bringing insight obtained from reliable sources. I consider MilesMoney a net negative with regard to Wikipedia's collegial editing environment, and especially with regard to serving the reader. A topic ban from libertarian articles is likely just the beginning. Binksternet (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You just said your only edit previous to that discussion was this, on Sept. 18th. But anyone who looks at the article edit history can see that this is false. You edited on Sept. 6th, and a couple of times in between.

This is precisely what I was talking about: you seem to mean well, but you make these huge mistakes. This is why people keep bringing up WP:COMPETENT. It's not a personal attack, not an insult. It's a simple recognition that you are, how shall we say?, error-prone.

Anyhow, a look at your edit history shows that you worked with Rich to tag-team revert me on other articles, and a visit to your talk page shows that you're quite hostile towards me. This is a sign of a personal grudge big enough to disqualify you from serving on the jury. Like Rich, you're a witness for the prosecution, or one of the prosecutors, so there's a conflict of interest here. MilesMoney (talk) 00:05, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

What a load of baloney. I have no conflict of interest (!) in this manner—I'm a professional audio engineer who has no horse in the libertarian race. My personal politics are American-style liberalism which advocates strong government involvement in social programs. I look at libertarianism as an interesting argument, nothing more. If you feel I'm a prosecutor of some sort then that means you are placing yourself in the perpetrator role. I have no "personal grudge", only the conclusion reached over the course of weeks of interaction that you are a disruptive editor.

If you examine the diff which you offered above, comparing it to the talk page and the article's current version, you will see that nobody protested that deletion of mine. The article continues to be free of that little cherry-picked bit of slime. Binksternet (talk) 12:31, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Bink, I don't think anyone is seriously maintaining that you are incompetent in the way the term is colloquially used. You're obviously an intelligent and affable guy. Rather, Miles was referring to a very specific kind of incompetence, as outlined in WP:Competence (which, while not technically a policy, is often invoked as one by admins and other users on ANIs). While I agree the choice of words could be much more sensitive, I believe that your editing of Mises-related pages has been problematic. You have made a lot of mistakes, and -- to your credit -- admit you know virtually nothing about the subject matter. I know I'm incompetent on a looooong list of subjects, and I defer to more knowledgeable users on those. I wish you would do the same with respect to economics. Steeletrap (talk) 00:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Similarly, User:RL0919 is accused of incompetence by Miles because he is a big fan of Rand and is editing her page. WP:Competence indicates that "Some people's personal opinions are so strongly held that they get in the way of editing neutrally or collaboratively." I strongly disagree with Miles here -- I think RL is a fine editor on most all subjects, including Rand and libertarian ones. But there is a good-faith rationale behind his argument; namely: Can a user be competent on a subject he has a strong bias towards? Again, I disagree with Miles on this, but it's not a personal attack to ask questions about another reader's (basically admitted) strong biases, or even to conclude that they render her or him incompetent on a specific subject matter or article. Steeletrap (talk) 00:42, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Time to reclose?

This discussion was already closed once with MilesMoney receiving a topic-ban. It was re-opened by the closing admin after good faith requests were made to keep the discussion open a little longer. The discussion has continued and it doesn't appear as if anyone changed their !vote. I suggest another admin evaluate consensus and close the discussion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:15, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me, AQFK, but do you have a crystal ball or are you perhaps a psychic? If not, then why do you act as if you know what other people will do? At most, you can speak for yourself, and all you're really saying is that you're acting in bad faith so nothing I say could change your mind. But anyone who looks at our interactions can see that you've been hostile from the get-go, and you're doing this because you're angry and have this grudge. Once again, you're not in the jury, you're the prosecution. Your opinion is a foregone conclusion, therefore irrelevant. No admin should pay attention to your vote. MilesMoney (talk) 00:09, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

@MilesMoney: Your first two sentences make absolutely no sense. What I said was "it doesn't appear as if anyone changed their !vote". "Changed" is past-tense. Why does making statements about the past require a crystal ball or being a psychic? In any case, the rest of your statement is an excellent example of problematic behavior: assumptions of bad faith, personalization of disputes, false accusations, dismissal of opinions that differ from your own, etc.. This is on top of your WP:BLP violation that prompted this discussion. Thus far, you've demonstrated no ability to learn from your mistakes. I suggest that the closing admin extend the topic ban from libertarian articles to all biographical material. Anyone who thinks there's nothing wrong with using a blog to accuse living people of being "racists, anti-Semites and conspiracy theorists" should not be allowed to edit BLPs. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:09, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Oppose Miles has only just had a chance to reply. Some people can't patrol this website 24/7 (as I sadly have done the last week or so). Give a few days for others to address his remarks. Steeletrap (talk) 23:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Oppose What's the hurry? I haven't made a single article-space edit since this started. I might as well be topic-banned, for all I'm doing. So there's nothing to be gained in once again rushing to a premature conclusion. MilesMoney (talk) 00:09, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Oppose AQFK you've made an outright misrepresentation "keep the discussion a little longer" WHAT? Like a kid asking to stay up another 5 minutes on Saturday night? What is the basis for your assertion? None. Please redact it. It is irresponsible and creates the appearance that you are being malicious. SPECIFICO talk 02:44, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I should imagine that AQFK based their remark on the comment above by TParis (01:24, 29 October): "I received two good faith requests via email to let this run longer, so I've reversed my earlier closure". I see no misrepresentation by AQFK. I do see the same three people caterwauling despite even more people tending towards support of a ban. I guess three people can dig a hole faster but do you all really want to fall into it? The longer this goes on, the more likely that outcome will be. You are risking everything on accusations regarding the Srich table and generally ignoring the fact that a lot of people have not even referred to it in arriving at their opinion. - Sitush (talk) 09:20, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Despite extreme provocation, I'm going to gently point out a couple of things.

1. You're violating WP:AGF, WP:NPA and a few other behavioral policies with "caterwauling", "dig a hole faster", and so on. Most importantly, you are trying to intimidate and threaten SPECIFICO, just as you tried to do the same to me. Try as I might, I cannot distinguish your actions from those of a schoolyard bully. Given your extreme hostility and bias, you cannot even begin to pretend to be a neutral "concerned citizen". You are an aggressor here and do not have any legitimate role in this already-broken sub-report. You are not a member of the jury; your opinion about me was so negative from the start and is so utterly immune to change that it simply does not matter. No admin should take it into account.
2. Very little of what you said is actually true, and all of it is severely biased. TParis specifically mentioned Rich's diff table as justification for closing this as a legitimate ban. Given this, if someone voted without reading the diff table, they weren't doing their jobs. And if someone doesn't care that the diff table was so easily refuted, they're so incredibly biased and resistant to facts that, like yours, their opinion cannot be counted. Remember, this was supposed to have been about whether I'm complying with policy, not simply a popularity contest. "I don't like Miles" is not a valid reason to vote for a ban, and any ban on that basis is illegitimate. The same goes for, "I don't agree with Miles about content".

Those are the two things I wanted to say. MilesMoney (talk) 09:57, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Your response seems like a case of WP:TE - you, Steeletrap and Specifico are all just saying the same thing over and over, although I will point out that there is no requirement to read the table prior to reaching a decision - one's own experience can suffice. - Sitush (talk) 10:14, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Anyone can see that you made an attempt to intimidate SPECIFICO, threatening him with 'falling into a hole' if he continued to defend me. That's completely unacceptable behavior! Unfortunately, it's consistent with how you attempted to intimidate me on my own talk page, as linked to above. Your presence here is one big WP:BOOMERANG.

And, as a reminder to everyone, WP:TE is not even a policy, so nobody can ever be banned for violating it. It's just an essay, with as much weight as "How I Spent My Summer Vacation". It references actual policies whose violation is punishable by blocks, not bans. A ban would require an ongoing pattern of violating actual policies with no interest in changing. This has not been demonstrated in any way and I have a clean block record.

What I do notice is that this banning attempt is made possible only due to the participation of people such as yourself, which is to say, those who either have an open grudge against me and/or are unhappy with the fact that I want content to be based on sources, not biases. Combined with the illegitimacy of the effort, the complete disregard for policy and due process, it's quite clear that the only goal here is to get rid of me, not to help Wikipedia. It is, as many have said now, a lynching. MilesMoney (talk) 11:44, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me re reread Wikipedia:Tendentious editing, an essay which states: Other policies and guidelines covering tendentious behaviors include: Neutral point of view, Consensus; Common tendentious behaviors – Edit warring, Disruptive editing, What Wikipedia is not, Gaming the system / Abuse of process, Wikilawyering, Disruption to make a point, "I didn't hear that" An essay which helps make clear common threads in policies and guidelines certainly is helpful. User:Carolmooredc 13:51, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

YO! Sitush! You're an editor of demonstrated intelligence, so I am surprised you don't see the difference if somebody said that you were an editor of little demonstrated intelligence. Same thing, right. Yup. Talk about disruptive... SPECIFICO talk 14:45, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Intelligent or not, I don't understand your comment at all, Specifico. - Sitush (talk) 14:47, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

{{hab}} I have taken the liberty of hatting this whole mess because it has failed to gain traction or attract significant input from people not involved in the dispute. I strongly recommend that the matter be taken to a formal dispute resolution process, or even arbitration, so that the parties can be assured of examination of their complaints by uninvolved editors. In my opinion anyone who has commented more than once in the hatted section could initiate or be a party to a case. alanyst 16:08, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

You are not an admin, this should really be left to an administrator. As such I have un-hatted the discussion but left your view. I suggest you request an admin to do this task. Arzel (talk) 16:50, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Re-hatted; see my remarks below with the same timestamp as this comment. alanyst 17:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree. The overload of WP:involved editors, who are often ideologically opposed to Miles (a passionate liberal editing pages populated by passionate libertarians), and the abundance of PAs on the thread, make its usefulness very limited. Steeletrap (talk) 16:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for throwing this rotting mess into the garbage. Obviously, I'm willing to participate in a formal dispute resolution or arbitration process. I believe the key would be to focus on the content dispute that underlies this while keeping all participants on their best behavior. Or, in plain English, focus on the problem, not on whose neck we can slip a noose over. MilesMoney (talk) 16:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Analyst is not in any position to close this discussion. His/her opinion is only as valid as the rest of us. This needs to be done by an Admin. Arzel (talk) 16:52, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The silence of uninvolved admins is deafening, and should count for something, as should a respected, uninvolved user's attempt to hat the page. Steeletrap (talk) 17:03, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I have re-hatted it, but any uninvolved admin is free to undo my action if they object to it. I will not edit war over the hatting so this is the last time I will take action to hat the discussion. But Arzel, instead of focusing on whether I have the admin bit, could you perhaps give a reason why this dispute should remain open here at AN/I instead of being taken to a formal dispute resolution venue? alanyst 17:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• I have asked BD2412 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) to close this thread. Please refrain from further discussion until his closure.--v/r - TP 18:11, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban for Gwillhickers on Thomas Jefferson and also slavery

At the Thomas Jefferson article, User:Gwillhickers has been disruptive about how we portray Jefferson as a slave owner, especially with regard to how we portray Jefferson fathering children by his slave Sally Hemings. As I look further into Gwillhickers' history on the topic of slavery, I see that many editors have observed his disruptive pattern of continuing to post repetitive and tiresome talk page arguments, and failing to recognize that a consensus has been reached against him. These themes were covered in detail at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Gwillhickers in May–July 2011. User:Brad101 said at the RfC that Gwillhickers was the instigator of disruption. User:Alanscottwalker said Gwillhickers "refused to recognize consensus for much too long." User:Stephan Schulz said Gwillhickers frequently attacks modern scholarship, and he observed Gwillhickers' "apparent inability to change his mind even if confronted with the weight of academic opinion." User:Parkwells noted in a separate section Gwillhickers' "disruptive and tendentious" behavior regarding Jefferson's paternity of Hemings' children, with the poor behavior traced to January 2011 when Gwillhickers responded to these changes by User:Ebanony. Ebanony posted a NORN report the next month but nobody responded. At the RFCU, Parkwells noted the Fringe noticeboard entry filed by Ebanony in March 2011, in which Ebanony describes as fringe Gwillhickers' stance on the Jefferson paternity of Hemings' children. User:Joe bob attacks endorsed Ebanony's summary of Gwillhickers' disruption. The proposed RFCU solution (Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Gwillhickers#Proposal 1) was that Gwillhickers be limited to 1RR, minimize conflict, stop being combative, recognize consensus against him, and apply for a mentor. This solution was not adopted. These are the exact problems I have been seeing since I first posted a comment at Talk:Thomas Jefferson in early September 2013. In the short time I have participated there, I have been amazed at how tendentious and argumentative is Gwillhickers, beating a dead horse long after all the other participants have reached an agreement or working compromise. What is more amazing is that nothing positive appears to have been accomplished by the 2011 RFCU. It's long past time for some kind of solution.

Racism

I was shocked recently at the Jefferson talk page when Gwillhickers made a deeply racist observation on October 3. He said:

If you want to see bias all you have to do is look at some of the key staff members at the TJF, starting with TJF board member Julian Bond, President of the NAACP and Dianne Swann-Wright, Director of African American and "special programs" at TJF.

(Typically, Gwillhickers modified his own talk page entry afterward, in this case by changing "bias" to "acute bias".) Clicking on either of the two URLs shows a photo of an African American scholar. The clear inference was that these two scholars are biased because they are African Americans. User:The Four Deuces was so stunned by what appeared to be an outright racist observation that he asked for clarification. I needed no clarification so I said that the statement was "a racist reaction pure and simple." Several days later and after many other talk page edits, Gwillhickers posted a reply saying that he was not calling the two scholars biased because of their race but "because of their involvements"; see Talk:Thomas Jefferson#.22Most historians.22.3F for the context. Reminding him several times of his racist comment, I tried to shut down the repetitive and disruptive talk page edits by Gwillhickers, but he did not yield. He said he was not racist.

The Jefferson talk page was not the only place Gwillhickers made racist observations. In June 2013 at Talk:United_States/Archive 53#Added draft on slavery, he said slavery was not so bad, that slaves lived healthier and longer lives, and that they had thrived in America, multiplying by the millions. He complained that there is a "modern day stigma" against slavery, making it seem as if he would be happy to see it re-instituted. In June 2013, User:Cmguy777 wrote a shocked response to what he took to be a "racist and inappropriate" remark by Gwillhickers, one in which Gwillhickers wondered why American slaves were never known for making fine cigars. The various responses to this can be seen at Talk:United States/Archive 54#Lingering slavery issues.

Topic ban proposal

Because of three major behavioral problems—expressions of racism, repetitive and disruptive arguments, and failing to recognize and abide by consensus—I propose that Gwillhickers be indefinitely topic-banned on two topics: Thomas Jefferson and slavery, broadly construed. Binksternet (talk) 03:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support - Unfortunately, action about this matter is necessary at this point... Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:38, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Question Is it necessary to include a topic ban on Jefferson? If there is a topic ban on American slavery, wouldn't that cover anything relating to Jefferson and Hemings? --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 04:54, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I've tried to work with Gwillhickers for years. I even assume that he is acting in good faith. My impression is that he is very much a fan of Thomas Jefferson, and that he perceives any bit of criticism of Jefferson as an attack on America and/or himself (I'm not sure this can be differentiated). I'm quite sure Gwillhickers does not even consciously notice the racism - it's just a way for him to be able to discard one class of scholars who have helped (in my view ;-) to give us a more differentiated picture of Jefferson or (in his view) who try to smear the greatest (or, being generous, second-greatest) being who ever walked on Earth. Similarly, or so the argument goes, Jefferson was a slaveholder, so slavery cannot have been so bad. In my opinion, Jefferson is the source and primary locus of the disruption. As an aside: the discussion at the page made me buy (and read) two books and one journal edition. So there is a positive side to the debate. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support He wrote "If you want to see acute bias all you have to do is look at some of the key staff members at the TJF."[41] Both of the links he provided were to people who appeared to be African American. Later he said that he was referring to the fact that one of them was part of the NAACP, but that is disingenuous since the other person was not. And he would not have said "look at", just mentioned their connection. Gwhillickers has been arguing for years without receiving support, and is disruptive. TFD (talk) 06:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Question - Gwhillickers central objection seems to be over whether a) an academic controversy can be described in the Thomas Jefferson article, which seems to be within WP policy, or b) whether only the majority of recent scholarship can be represented, which brings controversy. Exchanges have not been collegial. I agree with Jprg1966 to question a ban for Gwhillickers on Jefferson altogether. As to slavery, as I remember, the quote objecting to ‘modern day stigma’ against slavery was an objection to anachronistic narrative inappropriately condemning Jefferson, not Gwhillickers advocating race-based slavery in the modern day. I’m interested in what Yopienso has to say. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 07:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban, or an indef block under WP:NOTHERE, unless anyone can show somewhere this user has contributed positively enough to negate all of this racist rubbish. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:09, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Gwillhickers was recently Editor of the Week at the Editor Retention Project. He does a lot of work on 18th and 19th century naval battles. Binksternet (talk) 10:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

...and then he turns around and does a lot of work creating 21st century Wikipedia battles :-) ES&L 11:44, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support. I participated in the 2011 RfC, and I'm disappointed that his behavior is little changed since then. I stopped contributing to the Jefferson page solely because of Gwillhickers's intrasignce and edits that really test my ability to assume good faith. His damage to the Jefferson article is real; there are a number of devoted, consensus-minded editors there who would likely have brought the article to GA or FA if not for being mired in this never-ending dispute. --Coemgenus (talk) 12:41, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I want to clarify my response. I have no idea if Gwillhickers is racist or not. To me, his comments seem more ignorant and ill-considered than actually racist. I support this topic ban because he has been a disruptive editor who ignores consensus, attacks anyone who disagrees with him, and activley holds back progress on the articles he edits. I make no claims to know the cause of his attitude; it may be racism, it may be not. --Coemgenus (talk) 12:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
• Question I'm confused, I don't see the racism in this edit. Are you saying that posing the question "Is there reverse discrimination?" or more bluntly "Are these folks racist against white people?" is racist in itself?--v/r - TP 12:53, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what? Nowhere is the question "Is there reverse discrimination?", or "Are these folks racist against white people?" Moreover, on what basis was any such question posed? Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

"If you want to see bias all you have to do is look at some of the key staff members at the TJF, starting with TJF board member Julian Bond..." The OP said of this sentence "The clear inference was that these two scholars are biased because they are African Americans." I disagree. I think that is a clear intent to deliberately misunderstand. As I read it, the user is saying that if you reviewed the actions of Julian Bond, you'd see discrimination and racism by him. Racism isn't a "white person" condition or trait. Anyone can be racist. Anyone can be hateful. So, I'm asking for clarification. Is there something else I missed or am I to assume I'm correct that the OP, whom I've known for awhile and have respect for, made a stretch of to paraphrase this user in a way that paints their comments as racist? Because any time this subject comes up, it's quite easy to paint just about everyone as racist. I believe we need to stick with the facts and leave interpretation to the sideline.--v/r - TP 15:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

No. Why would anyone make such an accusation on the Jefferson talk page? Moreover, no one said that, the "bias" was an alleged bias regarding Jefferson scholarship (which by the way had no basis, except "look"). And what would be the basis for accusing Dianne Swann-Wright of anything, at all? And why are we accusing living people on our talk pages (see WP:BLP)? -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

TP. There is no misunderstanding. There is certainly not "a clear intent to deliberately misunderstand", which is an accusation of lying, by the way. Gwillhickers has repeatedly made clear his view that Jefferson's paternity of Hemings' children is something promoted by African-Americans for ideological reasons (though I've never been entirely clear what those reasons are in his mind). Gwillhickers provided links to photographs when he made those statements. The only plausible explanation is that he wanted us to see what they looked like. Did he link to Bond's writings, or to an article that "reviewed the actions of Julian Bond" providing evidence of "discrimination and racism by him"? No he did not. Your attempt to explain away Gwillhickers' remark makes no sense at all. And your attempt to smear the the OP User:Binksternet is outrageous. Paul B (talk) 16:58, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Outrageous? Chill your horses. The OP presented a diff and characterized it in the most offensive way possible to pass the bar of racism. So, it's outrageous to question it? Please, don't ever speak to me if you are beyond reasonable questioning. I'm tired of the "If you question us, you're ____________ist" crowd. I just want an answer and since I have no dime in this fight that means I'm uninvolved. And if an uninvolved person can read Gwillhickers' comment different than Binksternet's interpretation, than it deserves some scrutiny. Your comment makes me want to oppose this straight out because you, Paul, are coming off like your part of a lynch mob. If you want my support, you need to be more convincing and less combative.--v/r - TP 18:00, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The OP presented a diff and characterised it in the only way that makes any kind of sense. You then accused the OP of deliberately misunderstanding - which means you are accusing him of lying. If that's not outrageous, I don't know what it is. The rest of your post is just histrionics. Apparently it's OK for you to accuse an editor of lying, but not to be criticised for it. You have no response to the point that your interpretation is simply unsustainable and unintelligible. BTW, I always switch off when an editor starts referring to a "lynch mob". It should be the Wikipedian equivalent of Godwin's law. The first person to accuse those who support a sanction of some sort against some editor of being "part of a lynch mob" should automatically lose the argument. Paul B (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

"The OP presented a diff and characterised it in the only way that makes any kind of sense" Any kind of sense to you, obviously. That's why you disagree, but clearly I'm not the only one who sees more possibility, and more likely from my perspective, than what the OP has presented. I don't, and I never will, buy the automatic kneejerk accusations of _____isms that plague this project. The OP stretched the meaning of the comment; that's my position and you haven't made any kind of scratch in that. You've came in here with fists flying. I don't put up with that bullying crap. Find someone else to push around.--v/r - TP 19:17, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I see again you have no response to the central point that Gwillhickers asked the reader to "look at" the people he was commenting on and linked to pictures of them. Hence your explanation simply makes no sense. And you have no response to the fact that you in effect made a specious accusation of lying. Of course "kneejerk" accusations are wrong. Accusations clearly supported by evidence are not. Your reply is just bluster, fairly typical of editorial practices of "pushing around" and bullying rather than making an argued and coherent point. Paul B (talk) 19:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

And once again, your going to the furthest extreme you can and expecting it to stick. "Paul, I want you to look at on Bill Gates to see why Microsoft is so wealthy." That statement is not telling you to go look at Bill's skin color. It's telling you to go look at Bill Gates the person and read about him. "If you want to see Right-wing extremist, go look at Bill O'Rielly." That's not a statement to go look at his skin color. It's a statement to go look at the person. He linked to their biographies. I can point to literally millions of Wikipedia article that link to folks biographical articles. There is nothing nefarious in that. And yet, you continue to insist there is. Here, Paul, go look at Barack Obama. Now go ahead, call me a racist, see how far that gets you.--v/r - TP 19:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Of course, the mere phrase "look at" is not a problem in itself. It's a problem when he then links to photographs and the context makes it clear that he's asking us to look at their faces. And no, he did not link to "biographies". If he had wanted to, he would not have chosen pages with next-to-no informative content (barely a couple of sentences) except pictures. I've no doubt he thinks that being associated with NAACP or being interested in African-American history is also a problem, but that's just further evidence of the problem with his approach. He is rejecting people because of who they are, not because he is providing evidence that allows the reader to "review the actions of Julian Bond" demonstrating "discrimination and racism by him". Neither of the pages linked do any such thing.Paul B (talk) 20:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

No, he was not linking to photos. I'm sure he is perfectly capable of linking photos if he chose to. But even if he were linking there specifically to point out their photos, linking to photos is racist now? There couldn't possibly be a benign reason for it like for, gee whiz, identification? Again, waiting for your accusation because, oopsie, I just linked a photo. I'm willing to concede that a lot of this guy's comments come off as racist and if he's not racist than he's at least completely ignorant to acceptable behavior. But this specific diff is not it.--v/r - TP 20:13, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Now you are just being daft. The linking to photos is meaningful in the context, given the statement made. How on earth does the photo help to "identify" the person in this context, unless he thinks we might to bump into them in the street and ask about their research? But there is clearly no point in engaging in discussion with you. Paul B (talk) 20:22, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

No, now we're going to get into a "No you are, but what am I?" If anyone is being daft, it's you. He's not linking to a photo. He's perfectly capable of linking to a photo if he chose to. He didn't. He linked to a bio. And even if he did, even in the context of the sentence, it's still not racist. You want desperately for something to be there that's not and it's a blatant lie to make it out to be that. There is obviously apt material on this guy, find something with more bite. You've not convinced me, and frankly that's probably because you came in here all jerkish and pushy and now I'm completely put off and not really interested in what you have to say. If you had been less dickish, perhaps you could've convinced me, but you didn't. I'm not convinced by that diff. Other arguments are convincing me, but not that one.--v/r - TP 23:12, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

TParis, do you not realise how offensive it is to compare people who are raising issues of racism with a lynch mob? Please note for the avoidance of doubt, given your sensitivity on the subject, that I am not saying you were racist, merely racially insensitive. Neljack (talk) 13:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification because yes that was the first thing that went through my mind. If you read what I wrote, I said that Paul B specifically was acting like a he was part of a lynch mob. My quote exactly: "you, Paul, are coming off like your part of a lynch mob." So no, I haven't compared people who are raising issues of racism, I've compared Paul B. I feel like, sometimes, these issues are more of a "I'm going to prove I'm not a racist by slamming someone else for racism". If the feeling is a good "I've fought racism today" instead of a terrible "I can't believe people continue to believe these things" then there is a problem. Both thoughts serve the same ends, but one isn't altruistic. The specific diff that the OP quotes doesn't meet the threshold. I've explained that but it seems thumping a racist is more important to some people than getting it right. I'm concerned with 'getting it right' be it racists, homophobes, transphobes, sexists, nationalists, and really any form of hatred. It's so easy to take someone's benign words and make them out to be hateful. I want to be sure we are morally right in what we're doing. I'm not here to defend Gwillhickers, I'm here to defend Wikipedia's morality by making sure we're being meticulous in our claims.--v/r - TP 13:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your polite and thoughtful reply, TParis. I feel, however, that you are not extending the same assumption of good faith that you make towards Gwillhickers to Binksternet and Paul Barlow. They are not deliberately misrepresenting the comments or lying - they just disagree with your interpretation of them. And quite reasonably, in my view. If you suggest two black people are biased on a matter relating to slavery, fail to point to anything they've said or done to justify this claim, and have made a number of other comments that read as an apology for slavery, then you shouldn't be surprised if people interpret your suggestion of bias as racist. Neljack (talk) 14:29, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose, because the proposal makes baseless accusations and completely fails to prove its point — TParis hits the nail on the head. "Clear inferences" are not racism, and the proposer seems to be saying that statements of fact are racism: "slaves thrived in America" and "slaves lived healthier and longer lives" are either accurate factual statements or inaccurate factual statements, but they're not racism. Race card playing is no more appropriate here than anywhere else, and this needs to be demonstrated clearly. Nyttend (talk) 14:51, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Well then reject those allegations you find distateful, and turn your attention to the other issues raised. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Sure, Nyttend, one could see them as such, and Gwillhickers probably does--but I don't understand how you, a person of fairly sound mind, could honestly say that "slaves thrived in America" is neutral, since "thrived" does not mean "increased in number". If slaves "thrived" in that manner it's more likely because chattel slavery proved successful, for the while, as a population strategy. Those comments along the line of "slaves in the US didn't have it so bad and thrived", that's some serious nonsense with terrifically racist implications, since "thrive" suggests all kinds of things (flourish, increase in wealth or success, prosper) that are simply not true, besides insulting and ignorant. The RfC is troubling enough, and the "Presentation of 'most historians' claim" section on the Jefferson talk page is really laughable. (That whole section is like a dungheap, attracting comments like "There isn't any question that the NAACP's agenda is racist.") I'm not so convinced by the inference from the "key staff members" incident, but that's also due to Gwhillhickers' apparent inability or unwillingness to explain what they meant by it, and that in turn has led to a long section of...timesinkery.

  Initially, I was just going to place a note in the margin of Nyttend's remark, but the more I look at this the more I think that a topic ban from Jefferson and from any slavery-related article (section? discussion?) is a good thing, and we should throw in US Civil Rights. I will defer to the closing admin to phrase "slavery broadly construed"; I don't want to deny Gwillhickers the privilege of editing United States and other general articles as a whole, but I want them to stay away from the slavery and Civil Rights bits. Drmies (talk) 15:26, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• question – Are you sure you want to do this with both topics? Epicgenius^{(give him tirade • check out damage)} 18:22, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support for slavery topic ban based on the evidence. Epicgenius^{(give him tirade • check out damage)} 18:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support for topic ban from Jefferson, all Hemings-related articles (including Controversy), and slavery- Gwillhickers has refused to recognize the consensus of modern scholarship on these issues, or of editors who tried to work together on these articles. Over months of trying to deal with him on this topic, he suggested that the Thomas Jefferson Foundation (Monticello), scholars such as Annette Gordon-Reed, Paul Finkleman, and David Brion Davis (among others), and publications such as those by the National Genealogical Society (which he persisted in confusing with the National Geographic Society), Smithsonian Institution, and a PBS program on this topic, among others, did not constitute RS. He is extremely disruptive, diverting other editors' attempts at reasonable discussion and ignoring cited scholarship.Parkwells (talk) 19:02, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• As I have pointed out before, there are 100's of historians who have written about Jefferson and their opinions on various topics vary greatly. Some editors have claimed that "modern historians" share the same opinion and have claimed they are the vast majority -- but this is only a claim made by a few biased authors and orgs like the Thomas Jefferson foundation. As I have pointed out on the Jefferson talk page there are many historians who do not share the opinions that you claim "most modern historians" do. Again, there is a wide margin of differing opinion about Jefferson and your comments here are proof of the ongoing attempt to manipulate the page with one-sided opinion rather than presenting the facts, with mention of the varying opinions, and letting the readers decide for themselves what is what regarding Jefferson and his ideals. -- Gwillhickers 20:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support for topic ban from Jefferson, all Hemings-related articles". This is not really about whether or not Gwillhickers has made comments that are "racist". It's about his general propensity for bizarre conspiracy theories, according to which respected scholars are not to be trusted because of some supposed agenda, whether determined by their race, their politics or their nationality. One of his most recent interventions has been to call into question the integrity of the famous science journal Nature, apparently because it is based in Britain [42]. He writes "At this late date there is also a lot of unanswered questions about why DNA analysis was handled in Britain, not in the USA, who funded and oversaw the experiments and how the DNA samples were handled. These are fair questions, still unanswered and quite warranted considering the way Britain's Nature magazine reported and skewed the facts in the typical fashion still practiced today." What on earth does "the typical fashion still practiced today" mean? Typical of who? The British? Nature? The anti-Jefferson cabal? Clearly there is a heavy hint of some sort of nefarious plot, but its actual content remains unclear (are the British are still harbouring resentment against Jefferson for his role in undermining the Empire?). Interventions like this are commonplace from this editor, and only serve to muddy the waters. Paul B (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose as written...I encourage Gwillhickers to be much less confrontational and work within consensus. Unlike Binksternet, I do not see the links to Bond and Swann-Wright to be racist in overtone. Without violating BLP, it isn't a fringe belief that Bond has made some controversial comments (as our own article even refers to them as) and that's the toned down examples[43]. Some of the other comments by Gwillhickers are somewhat disruptive...so I propose a 30 day topic ban from Jefferson, Hemings and articles about race and slavery or where there is a discussion ongoing about race or slavery..--MONGO 23:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose the singling out one user, or any user, who raises fair points and questions in a complex and controversial subject. Trying to punish a user for making points on a talk page that are not agreeable with certain individuals is a 'solution'(?) worse than this perceived problem, and playing the race card by the OP is the all time low here. Binksternet was losing the debate regarding sourced statements and this hearing is the result. All of my edits in the article have been sourced and made with compromise so this entire hearing is uncalled for imo. Support a temporary topic ban on Jefferson page for all users until tempers cool. We need a resolution for all participants to abide by. -- Gwillhickers 00:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support, sadly. Gwillhickers edits in good faith, but seems unable to distinguish between opinions of WP editors and opinions of scholars. Dedicated to upholding a sterling legacy for TJ, he rejects scholars' opinions with which he disagrees. He does not realize that the article isn't supposed to decide whether or not current scholarship may be flawed, but simply reflect that scholarship for better or for worse.

I believe the ban should be on Jefferson and slavery since he sincerely doesn't understand our objections to his edits and therefore is unlikely to change. Yopienso (talk) 02:14, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support full ban of Gwillhickers on the Thomas Jefferson page, all Hemings related articles, and slavery (after seeing his comments above). Gwillhickers has been at this for almost three years. I am an occasional Wikipedia editor and a history professor. My students typically use wikipedia as a starting point for their research. I originally contributed to this page in early 2011. I returned to the page out of curiosity. So I was somewhat surprised that Gwillhickers was still POV pushing some of the same minor ideas and fringe sources. There is already a consensus on the Hemings relationship and Jefferson's views on slavery in the historical community, as extensive research has been done, including timelines and reviews of his personal letters. There will always be fringe historians who disagree with the views of the majority on any major historical figure or event. It's just human nature. But continuing to push these ideas in an effort to change the page constitutes persistent and pervasive POV pushing. I would not normally support a ban for POV pushing as editors can be occasionally passionate, but Gwillhickers has been doing this for years and has no intention of stopping. I believe this person is more akin to a legacy protector, which is not what wikipedia should be used for.

However, I am most concerned with Gwillhickers making unsourced confrontational (and controversial) statements. For example, Gwillhckers stated that the Hemings family was somehow "coached" not to exhume their deceased relative. I believe Gwillhickers was insinuating this as proof that the Hemings family are not descended from Thomas Jefferson. I asked Gwillhickers to source this, which he/she could not do. Gwillhickers has made other blanket statements without sourcing them. As a historian, I find this concerning. I would not typically support banning a user from a topic, but this editor has engaged in blatant POV pushing on this topic for almost three years. This editor also responds to fellow editors in a confrontational manner. Thanks. Joe bob attacks (talk) 03:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

As Joe Bob' is well aware I have provided a long list of historians and professors from notable universities and elsewhere that have a different view about the Hemings controversy, and they are by no means a "fringe" group. Yet Joe Bob continues to use such deceptive language in his account here, so all I can do is ask that his comments now be considered with this sort of testimony in mind. Btw, I am only one of several editors who have been active on the Jefferson page for a number of years. As I pointed out above, the Jefferson page was being used as a coatrack for the Hemings issue a couple of years ago, with some five pages devoted to this topic. I brought attention to this problem and drew large support to remedy the situation, which is apparently why Joe bob is here now, as he was out voted by a wide margin which more than explains why this editor is here now trying to invent other issues as he has just demonstrated. -- Gwillhickers 05:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but your "long list" is not only not very long, it also contains people who have been dead for 10 years (and hence are not a measure of current opinion) and people and organizations which are decidedly not reliable sources for the topic. It also misrepresents the qualifications and opinions of people on the list (Patrick Mullins, e.g., was only a PhD student, not a PhD, in 2001, when your source for his opinion was written - and, of course, at least nominally he only reports on the so-called Scholars Commission Report, not endorse it). In other words, it's the typical result of an unfiltered Google trawl for confirmation of an pre-existing bias, not a useful list to gauge current expert consensus. The problem is that you keep bringing up such low-quality sources and defend them far beyond what's reasonable - that is, you are only doing less than half of your homework, but then insist that it's A grade material. This is an enormous waste of time for other editors. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:37, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually the list is quite long and only the tip of the iceberg. To this day no one has presented a list representing the other view. Just claims backed up by TJF, PBS (which is a peer-driven media source with advertisers and grant givers to appease), and a couple of other authors. Btw, there are books written by Finkleman and A.G. Reed that are more than ten years old, so are you saying they should be ignored also? Speaking of wasting time, is this the place to be arguing the validity of sources? -- Gwillhickers 19:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Possibly not - but if you keep bringing bad sources (my interpretation) here, they need to be discussed. Gordon-Reed and Finkelman are both alive, and actively publishing in the relevant field. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Joe Bob is the only editor I know of that has demanded sources for statements made in a discussion. I have made no unsourced edits in the Jefferson article itself and all potentially controversial edits have been made with compromise. Re: The coaching claim. The present day Hemings descendents were at first willing to go along with further DNA tests, then changed their minds. One (among others) source says: Why did the eight descendants of Madison Hemings originally give me their oral approval to exhume William Beverly Hemings and then refuse to give written approval just a few days later? I read somewhere many months back that they were coached into changing their minds, but regrettably I can not find that source today, but as I told Joe Bob, it was not my intention to include the coaching claim into the article, yet he is still trying to turn such things into some sort of issue now. 'This' is the sort of thing I and other editors have had to deal with from time to time trying to maintain balance and neutrality on the Jefferson page. -- Gwillhickers 05:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Joe Bob is the only one who has asked for sources for your comments? Either you have misunderstood others requests or you have not heard them (see, WP:IDHT). (Also, did you insert responses into Joe Bob's comments? Don't do that, please.) Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm really not sure what Gwillhickers is referring to. We reached consensus on this topic several years ago, which was no easy feat with Gwillhickers' tactics. I am also not the only editor to question Gwillhickers sources. I am not a contentious editor. I don't follow this page continually. The problem is that Gwillhickers uses unsourced statements to bolster his argument. His statement that the Hemings family was somehow "coached" cannot be sourced. His source that the Hemings family "changed their minds" on exhumation has problems too. It comes from a WordPress blog, which would be fine if I could read about the blogger's qualifications. It also doesn't explain how the blogger came about the information. Historians typically source their research meticulously. Also I continue to be concerned about some of Gwillhickers comments. Even after all this debate he continues to insinuate that Jefferson's slaves must have been well treated. Again, another unsourced statement. See his comment below.

"We were discussing the treatment of slaves. The analogy was made to point out that slavery in the U.S., and in particular regarding Jefferson, was dealt with in an entirely different manner than it was in Africa, Brazil and other parts of the world. When someone closely examines the history and the manner in which Jefferson treated slaves they see a very different picture than the one you would apparently have us believe." Joe bob attacks (talk) 14:02, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support Per Drmies, Stephan Schulz, Paul B and others. (Many of us supporting have had substantive disagreements with each other in the past and will likely have them in the future but on this we agree, and it is not because we think disagreement bad.) I recently decided to abandon the Jefferson article, which I at one time hoped to help advance to improved article status. It was sadly due to Gwillhickers. Gwillhickers appears too personally invested in off-site battle on certain issues and importing it to Wiki talk pages, which is a detriment to the project, especially in such subjects. That is the most AGF determination to make at this point. Being too personally invested led, in part, to the his RfC/U. (As an aside, I am still mystified by the Dianne Swann-Wright comment (see WP:BLP) -- which is hardly improved by the ad hominem w/r/t the NAACP -- and many of his other comments discussed above). Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Alanscottwalker, if I ever disagreed with you, it was most likely my fault. Drmies (talk) 14:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose I'm sure that some of you will be surprised I oppose a topic ban however, Gwill is not and has not been the only contentious editor of that article or the talk page battles. I'm not going to mention any names because this is no place to drag them in. Once I took a good look at the Jefferson article several years back it was evident that POV pushing was going on. At one time the Jefferson/Hemings debacle dominated the entire article and mentions of the supposed relationship were inserted everywhere. After much battle it was finally brought down to a reasonable level and myself - and I believe Gwill - have had to watch the Jefferson article to keep the debate from spreading all over again. The reoccurring theme of the Jefferson article is that a consensus is reached but not long after someone else jumps in making edits and the whole circus starts all over again. Gwill and myself have been accused of having a 'White Supremest' agenda and that we belonged to the KKK. Most of you here seemed to have missed that part. I took a lot of abuse for preventing the article from projecting Jefferson as only a cruel slave owner and nothing else, and I believe that's still Gwill's perspective. After a couple years of playing sentinel I got sick of the whole thing and left after realizing the article would likely never progress any further and I see that I was right. Gwill is no angel btw, he needs to learn when to call it quits and work better with other editors but a topic ban is out of line. Brad (talk) 11:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I am not surprised, but as your comment suggests detachment is what is sorely needed there. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

As I remember, some years ago one user was very persistent in inserting Hemings-related material with a negative spin, even to the extent of trying to have Jefferson characterised as a "rapist" (on the grounds that Hemings was unable to withhold consent). So, of course there are extremists on the opposite side of the debate. But that's not the issue here. It's not about supporting a "side", but about Gwhillickers unrelenting questioning of sources on spurious grounds and attritional warfare on the talk page in a way that creates problems for other editors. Paul B (talk) 13:21, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Paul, please take a close look at the way debate involving sources has unfolded on the Jefferson talk page. It always starts with the general claim that some of my sources are "fringe" and not published by mainstream publishers. I have demonstrated that there is a wide body of sources written by historians and professors from notable universities, most of whom have published their works in mainstream publications. (Search the talk page for 'mainstream') The debate about sources is quite warranted I'm afraid, and one that I have never initiated. -- Gwillhickers 20:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban for both Jefferson and slavery as written. While I am concerned at Gwhillickers personal attacks on alternative sources, a) I believe both sides of the controversy about parentage should be expressed with the modern majority view denoted in the article body, and b) variations in the severity of slavery practice should be admitted into the narrative without indicating approval of it, even for that time. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose The idea that one can not express opinions about claims without being banned for having "wrong opinions" is antithetical to the basic premise of Wikipedia, and that appears to be the root cause presented here. Using topic bans to prevent discourse on a topic is silly at best. Collect (talk) 11:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

The principal issue is not that Gwhillickers' views are 'wrong', but that his attritional approach and conspiracy-theory attitude to sources is a problem for other editors. Where do you get the idea that anyone is trying to "prevent discourse"? Paul B (talk) 13:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I take no issue with opposing views. There is a time and a place for such views and they should be presented. However, this person is POV pushing to the extreme. This person is not just an editor with opposing views. This person wishes to rewrite Jefferson's obituary. He cannot edit this page objectively. Thanks. Joe bob attacks (talk) 14:14, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Opposing views are healthy on a talk page. The problem with Gwillhickers is that he does not recognize compromise or consensus; everything is viewed through his particular lenses. As one example, he stated on October 26 that the involved editors had reached a compromise solution regarding one paragraph in the lead section. He said, "We struck a compromise, it went back and forth a couple of times with other edits, and then it ended."[44] This was after 26 days of a bunch of reverting and rewriting the paragraph in question, and after about 100 kb of ongoing talk page discussion on the topic, with Alanscottwalker, TFD, Yopienso, Stephan Schulz, Joe bob attacks and myself generally opining against Gwillhickers, while Rjensen, TheDarkOneLives and TheVirginiaHistorian generally making comments that were aligned with Gwillhickers. By coincidence, the involved editors left the disputed article text alone for five days while discussion continued on the talk page, but there was no settlement, no compromise reached. The last person to tweak the article text was Gwillhickers (after a lot of back-and-forthing), so his preferred text remained in the article for five days. When he said on the talk page that a compromise had been reached, I was astounded, and I quickly rewrote the disputed text. There was never a compromise "struck", the discussion was still developing. That's the problem—Gwillhickers thinks that his final reversion/adjustment is somehow the new compromise version even though discussion is still under way. Such a viewpoint favors the most bullheaded editors, the most likely to engage in edit warring. Binksternet (talk) 04:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• This account is (far) less than accurate on several notes. The compromise you're referring to above was a draft/proposal written by Yopienso, one that no one else but you opposed. It was the same basic lede statement 'opposed slavery all his life' (+ -) that was in place during Aug. 2012 all the way up to recently in Oct. 2013. All you've ever done is attempt to change this well sourced statement by (later, when pressed) citing some cherry-picked opinions only. Not facts. The article was quite stable until you came along when you just jumped in and began making major edits. You are not solely to blame -- another editor came along and tweaked the DNA statement to imply it only pointed to T.Jefferson, with no objection from you, btw. All my edits and debate were simply devoted to returning the page to the state it was in where we discussed neutrality for months to get it to that place. Finally, you have been no less "bullheaded" than myself on various points, and all my edits (save reverting yours) were preceded with discussion, so here too your account is one-sided and serves only to pat yourself on the back at my expense. Sadly, your less than honest account here is typical of your opening statements also. -- Gwillhickers 18:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban for all articles related to Jefferson, Hemmings and slavery The user's POV is clearly so strong that they are unable to edit neutrally and collaboratively in this area. The racism is extremely concerning. Neljack (talk) 13:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Making observations about Julian Bond and slavery in Brazil compared to the U.S. is not "racism" in the least so I don't appreciate these attempts to use buzz-words to turn heads here. If you are going to allege "racism" the least you could do is explain why. -- Gwillhickers 18:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Insert: I am concerned by some of Gwhillhickers responses below, especially his conversations with Beyond My Ken, which has spilled over to Beyond Ken's talk page. This interaction makes a compelling argument to topic ban this person. I am unsure about the process, so I respectuflly leave it to the discretion of other editors, but I believe the necessary votes have already been acquired to topic ban this person. Thanks.Joe bob attacks (talk) 15:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

query It will be interesting to see how declarations are counted. nine support, -- six oppose, -- one supports but would oppose if GW has made any other contributions, which he has, -- one supports to ban slavery but opposes ban Jefferson. So as written, the count is nine-for, eight-against. Is banning for a limited time? Is it accomplished by a simple majority? How long is the poll left open? -- two or more days for a severe penalty? TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 18:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

It's not a poll, its a discussion. It also is not (at least officially) decided by counting snouts, but by weight of argument, as judged by the closing admin (if any - sometimes these things just peter out with no-one being interested to pursue it to the end). Admins rarely go against overwhelming majority, but may overrule small majorities or find no consensus. There is no specific time limit for ANI discussions. And your count seems to be very much off. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. Reading all this reminds me of a lynch mob. No evidence has been provided showing that Gwillhickers has done anything much wrong. Plenty of of evidence has been provided that Gwillhickers has views on slavery that I and many other readers strongly disagree with. But before we lynch him/her for disagreeing with us, let us remember that for thousands of years, vast numbers of sensible people have regarded slavery either as a good thing, or as a natural and normal feature of civilisation. It is no bad thing to have someone honest enough to make the case for slavery on Wikipedia. It helps avoid group think. My Tea Party friends whittle on about how the "founding fathers" of the USA were so great. In Gwillhickers we have someone who really thinks what the founding fathers really thought, and not the propaganda rubbish they spouted in their declaration of independence, etc. By they way, millions of people in 2013 exist in de facto slavery; of course their owners are not so honest as Gwillhickers.--Toddy1 (talk) 22:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

My only position regarding slavery in regard to Jefferson is that he opposed it all of his life and that he went through extraordinary measures to provide for slaves, working them no longer or harder than free farmers worked, allowing them to grow their own gardens, raise their own chickens, decent cloths, provisions, etc, all of which is supported by numerous sources. Bringing this perspective to the biography is not an endorsement of slavery as some would have you believe. This is all clearly evident with my edits in the article and on the talk page. Much of the disagreement is over how the various sources attempt to represent this affair in moral terms. And as I look around this noticeboard I can only notice how easy it's been for almost everyone here to get involved in debate over the sources, and just as frequently. Same with the Jefferson talk page. -- Gwillhickers 00:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban per TFD Pass a Method talk 12:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban sadly. As an uninvolved editor I have to say there really is not much that can be done to defend a comment like this one:

“ Yes, they have a bias against anyone trying to promote falsehoods based on racially charged speculations based on sketchy evidence that would never stand up in a court if law, at least not in the free world. If you want to see bias all you have to do is look at some of the key staff members at the TJF, starting with TJF board member Julian Bond, President of the NAACP and Dianne Swann-Wright, Director of African American and "special programs" at TJF. -- ”

Linking to the profile pictures of african-american people and saying "all you have to do is look at some of the key staff members..." (emphasis added) has an undeniable racial undertone. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 13:30, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per Tparis. So he linked to a picture and called it biased. Does he expect you to look at their face? In pearticular, if who he had linked to was white, would we even be discussing this? I'm tired of people in society playing the race card or saying "if you disagree with my position you're a ____ist, radical, or worse". KonveyorBelt 15:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Wee Curry Monster. Binksternet is using as prescription what could be later turned into a psychological observation: A "majority of observers... accepted the very high probability...". Reasonable doubt, a redoubtable notion. --Askedonty (talk) 15:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - I don't see such sanction as warranted in current situation. To be honest, I find Binksternet's original post here quite a bit more disturbing. Lots of "racism" accusations thrown around on quite weak grounds, and even such gem about Gwillhickers and slavery "making it seem as if he would be happy to see it re-instituted". Like seriously? If anything, this looks more like potential case for WP:BOOMERANG.--Staberinde (talk) 16:17, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Since you believe I am off base regarding the racism allegation, can you address the remaining disruptive behaviors, the ones that came up in 2011 at the RFCU and have continued unabated? Binksternet (talk) 17:11, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban as proposed. User:Joe bob attacks is right, "POV pushing minor ideas for almost three years is a problem". Attrition is disruptive. It wears people out. Can I make a proposal of my own? Please let's ANI topic ban the next idiot who says "lynch mob". Bishonen | talk 16:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC).

You take exception to one form of name calling, yet you use the word "idiot" in the same breath, all the while you ignore names like "racist". Hello? Aside from your over reacting, wanting to go as far as banning someone who employs name calling like yourself, your behavior is rather hypocritical and as such doesn't carry much weight except maybe with other like minded individuals. Btw, lynch mobs hang people because they assume they are guilty, with no actual facts to support their behavior, so perhaps the reference has some weight after all. -- Gwillhickers 20:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Support- Wow. Reading the threads below and the article Talk page(along with the comments at the top pointed to by Binksternet, it's hard to believe anyone would not support a Topic ban for this editor. There has been no good reason given for citing the two AA board members as 'biased' with the link to their bios. One would have to stick their head in the sand to not see the racism. Especially considering the compiled edits by the editor discussing this issue. Wow. Dave Dial (talk) 17:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

"See racism", or 'assume racism'? Typically you did not actually point to a given statement and explain any "racism". All you're doing is assuming such, which is plain wrong. The reference to Julian Bond was warranted, as this individual has a long history of racially divisive statements and is now the heada prominent member of the Thomas Jefferson Foundation. Calling this observation "racist" only suggests that perhaps you harbor some of your own prejudices against anyone who has ever criticized someone who happens to be African American. I have criticized several authors who are white -- are you suggesting because of Bond's race that he is above criticism? Virtually all the recent debates on the Jefferson page were initiated or instigated by someone else. If you look at the entire history of that page (i.e.the whole truth), you will see ongoing debates that involve many others besides myself. Don't appreciate being solely accused of something that has been going on there with many others for the longest time. The debates started long before I arrived. -- Gwillhickers 19:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Ban topic for everyone then. Or do you perhaps see a difference with: "A brief check on some of the people listed shows that they seem to be right-wing. Harvey Mansfield is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, David N. Mayer is a "close associate" of the Atlas Society and his publisher is the Cato Institute, Paul A. Rahe is a fellow of the Hoover Institution and host at the National Review, and Forrest McDonald is a "paleo-conservative". --Askedonty (talk) 18:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The difference is that there is a clear link between the "he didn't bang the slave girl" faction and a wider ideological view of revering the Founding Fathers, allied to a particular religio-moral agenda. It's comparable to the link between climate change denial and Free Market ideology. Such ideologically motivated rejections of scientific and historical evidence are characteristic of both the "right" and the "left". Right-wing fundamentalists will reject Darwinian models of evolution; left-wing Feminists will often reject Darwinian models of differences between male and female sexual behaviour. When we see a consensus of unaffiliated historians and scientists affirming a position on evidence, while the opponents are all clearly identified with an ideology, we have good reason to note that the opponents all seem to be Religious Fundamentalists, or Radical Feminists, or whatever: groups who are already committed to a belief that is threatened by the position they reject. Paul B (talk) 18:55, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Taking position against an ideology does not allow so easily to be not dependent on ideology(/ies). Regarding Hemings-Jefferson the DNA evidence did not change fundamentally the equation, there always was the possibility to believe it was the one case or it was the opposite. But "reasonable doubt" is not clearing the way if there is any need to readjust one's certainties, it maintains a divisive situation for the minority faction. What you need is either certainties, or hopes. -- Askedonty (talk) 20:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't follow your first sentence at all. It is not a question of taking a position "against an ideology", but of noting that views held in the face of evidence are linked to ideology in particular cases. The DNA evidence did change fundamentally the equation when combined with historical evidence. "Reasonable doubt" is a legal concept that can't sensibly be applied to history. We couldn't even say that there is a historical consensus that Brutus and Cassius killed Caesar if we applied that test, since all we have is legally "hearsay" evidence and some coins with pictures of daggers on them. Paul B (talk) 21:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the impact of the 1998 DNA tests—it was enormous. The historiography of Jefferson is now split into two parts: pre-1998 and post-1998. All of the post-1998 biographies and histories of the Founding Fathers have had to decide how to deal with the DNA case. Binksternet (talk) 20:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support I was going to stay out of this one - but having seen this comment by GWillhickers, I think there's no choice but to topic ban, and most likely start a new RFC/U. There's no room for that type of response, even if you feel you've been the victim first. Willhickers needs to get out of Dodge until he's actually ready to behave in a community manner, with a lot less emotion ES&L 20:14, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Insert: I apologize in advance for this post, as I had hoped to leave this debate entirely. After a day of reflection, I understand that Gwillhickers is passionate about this topic, as TJ is a hero for him. I can understand where his passion comes from, as TJ is also a hero for me, but unlike Gwillhickers, I admire TJ's greatness and his flaws: "warts and all," as the old phrase goes. Historians love flaws. It's what makes our subjects relatable and interesting. So I truly wanted to look at this situation with a fresh set of eyes and give this editor the benefit of the doubt. Cooler heads and all. But unfortunately this is not the first time this editor has been reported to the Admin Board and it will likely not be the last. Gwillhickers has been to the Admin Board before and has also previously been on the receiving end of a RFC. Wikipedia is not a soapbox WP:SOAP or a forum WP:FORUM. We are prohibited from advocating or promotion WP:PROMOTION. I don't really have anything to gain or lose here. I do not believe Jefferson to be either a saint or a sinner, but somewhere in between (which is where most of us reside).

Administrator's Noticeboard/Incidents - involving Gwillhickers

• July 2013
• December 2012
• July 2012
• July 2011
• March 2011

I fully expect to return to Jefferson's page in a year or two to see Gwillhickers engaged in the same WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. I would like to be wrong. I have heard one editor accuse other editors of provoking him. I don't see how. Editors come and go, but there is only one common denominator.

The reason I'm' here: After reaching consensus with Gwhillhickers in March of 2011, I was surprised to see Gwillhickers still pushing the same minor ideas in October of 2013. Fine--we can all debate if the ideas are in fact minor or not, but once consensus is reached, one editor should not be continuing the debate...for years. Perhaps, as Gwillhickers has suggested, I don't know the full story behind the incidents over the last two years? What I do know is that some of his information is sourced, but some of it isn't. Some of his information is based on his own personal opinion. So perhaps he should be topic banned this time, perhaps not, or perhaps we all should? I don't know. As it appears that Gwillhickers and I are on opposite sides, perhaps he and I can work together to come up with a satisfying solution?

I am more than willing to compile yet another list of peer reviewed sources (some of which has already posted in the TJ talk page and throughout other wikipedia pages). One I can recall off the top of my head was done at the University of Virginia with Professor Jan Lewis and Peter Onuf and a group of historians. If people want additional information from me please respond to my talk page. Thanks. Joe bob attacks (talk) 22:16, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Minor additional comment - User:Joe bob attacks who looks quite well accustomed to wikipedia rules and functioning considering the way he wikilinks different policies here, and has been very active on "frontline" of this discussion, has made three (read 3) content edits to wikipedia since 2009, and if we discount 2 reverts then he has added exactly 1 sentence of new content to wikipedia. I personally find it somewhat strange, but thats just me.--Staberinde (talk) 23:39, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but I have added more than 1 sentence. Perhaps I didn't log in and just edited under my IP address (at the time), but I know I've made edits to the John Adams pages some years ago. I've also edited several pages about movies and musicians. But is there something you're accusing me of? I am accustomed to wiki rules because I have actually read through the guidelines. I was under the impression that was what people should do? Also, I have seen/observed how others edit since 2009. It doesn't take a genius to figure out after four years. I have stated on more than one once that I am an occasional editor. I participated in the consensus building on the Jefferson page in 2011. I returned to that particular page just recently. I have been very open about that. I'm pretty actively engaged in other research currently, which unfortunately limits my wiki editing time, but that doesn't mean I am not an active wiki reader. I especially enjoy reading talk pages. I may only return to edit a page every year or so. I'm not sure if you're insinuating that my opinion is somehow less valuable or that I'm up to something nefarious? Either way, you're incorrect. And this conversation shouldn't be about me. Please feel free to do a check of my IP address. Thanks. Joe bob attacks (talk) 03:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban - This smacks of a majority beating up on the adherent of a minority viewpoint, perceived as disruptive for not yielding his defense of a minority academic position. Not the way Wikipedia is supposed to work, sorry. Carrite (talk) 22:35, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Reply by Gwillhickers

No edits made by me in the Jefferson article warrant that I be singled out and topic banned, as all edits involving potentially controversial topics are done with compromise, discussion and are well sourced. This is simply an underhanded attempt by user Binksternet to keep me and others from maintaining balance and neutrality regarding slavery on the Thomas Jefferson page. This issue started with debate about the lede, which is supposed to be a summary of the entire Jefferson biography, with each topic summarized with a sentence -- yet the Sally Hemings (a slave) topic is a short paragraph, with details and commentary added to it, unlike any other topic in the lede. I went along and compromised on this, and even left it up to another editor to draft a suitable statement for it in the lede, and user Binksternet has even objected to that, and has not been willing to strike a compromise on anything.
The Thomas Jefferson page has a long history of similar abuse. At one time the Slavery and Hemings topics took up some five pages on that page and there was an overwhelming consensus to fix that. I was accused of being "racist" by one editor for trying to remedy that also. Most of the editors who gave their support then have since left the page, and not because of me but because they grew weary of the constant debate.
All of my recent edits regarding slavery and Hemings are well sourced and have been tempered with compromise and added with consensus. IMO this hearing is just an end run to get around that by user Binksternet who is bent on using cherry picked opinions from selected historians to represent the topic rather than simply stating the established historical facts with fair mention of varying opinions from the 100's of historians.
Regarding this latest accusation of racism, this is yet another cheap attempt to stigmatize my participation. I indeed referred to Julian Bond, head of the NAACP and who is now the board member at the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, an org that is used as a source for various statements on the Jefferson page, and which I have even used as a source for other statements. I accused Bond, and Swann-Wright, on the talk page, of bias and linked to their pictures at the Thomas Jefferson foundation, not because they are African American but because of their social and political involvements. Bond has a long history of racially divisive comments and it is my observation that they are using the Thomas Jefferson Foundation for their own agenda.
My central position has always be neutral and that we include facts first, per an encyclopedia, and mention the varying opinions by historians past and present, yet this is not good enough for user Binksternet. There are 100's of sources for Jefferson so we can not be cherry picking opinions from a few select authors, as has been attempted before and recently.
I am also for a temporary topic ban, but one that does not single me out, until tempers cool down, as this racially charged topic has dominated the Jefferson talk page for too long and has kept the Jefferson article in a constantly changing and unstable condition. -- Gwillhickers 20:16, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• I am also asking for a resolution about how the lede should be configured, as this has been central to all the heated debate here. As I've indicated, the Hemings topic has been given a paragraph of coverage in the lede. Banning the topic alone is not going to avert future problems. The cause of the problem needs to be addressed. All the topics in the lede, i.e.established historical facts like the Declaration of Independence, the Louisiana Purchase, etc, are covered with one sentence -- yet the Hemings topic, a theory no less, is covered with a paragraph with added details and commentary about opinions from historians, etc. This brings up undue weight issues and summary in the lede issues. I ask that the proper authorities here come forward and make resolutions that everyone must follow. -- Gwillhickers 22:16, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Good for you!! It's high time someone stood up and tried to restore some balance to the issue of slavery. For too long now, all we've heard are the bad things about slavery, while all the good stuff have been ignored or actively suppressed. We need someone like you to insure that our coverage of slavery is as fair and balanced as possible. Well done!!

(Can we please topic ban this person?) Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

No one has said there is any "good stuff" about slavery, only that the topic be treated with objectivity in regards to Jefferson who apparently you know little about. Your false statement and sarcasm only typifies the behavior some individuals must resort to to get over in a debate about such sensitive issues. Thanks for addressing the issue with such 'maturity'. -- Gwillhickers 22:58, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Really? Then why -- before I made you aware that I was being sarcastic -- do you thank me on my talk page for my comment? If you don't believe that there's anything good about slavery, why did you thank me for saying it? You did ask for an explanation of why I asked for you to be topic banned, because that confused you, but you did not take me to task for my ersatz pro-slavery remarks -- those you seemed OK with. This leads me to believe that you are indeed, as speculated here, a wolf in sheep's clothing -- or, to be more precise, a racist masquerading as someone concerned about "balance." That's the kind of stance taken by some of the less foaming-at-the-mouth Holocaust deniers - "I'm just trying to set the record straight."

Well, Wikipedia is not here for you to right great wrongs, especially when there's nothing particularly wrong about exposing the essential nature of slavery, and nothing to "right", no "balance" which isn't despicable to civilized people. We don't need people who cannot put their personal point of view aside and edit neutrally, especially when that point of view is as vile as that of a racist. Since you asked, that's why you should be topic banned. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

It was a general thank you but rest assured I at first thought you were referring to some of the good things that were done for slaves. Apparently you find this prospect amazing. All my potentially controversial edits on the Jefferson page have been made with compromise. No one is attempting to 'right past wrongs', just that the topic be told in a neutral and fair manner pointing out Jefferson struggled with the idea of slavery and made many concessions to improve the lives of slaves and made many attempts in his life to oppose it -- starting with the Declaration of Independence. Some editors, and apparently you, would like to erase that part of the history entirely. I have made no edits that come close to warranting that I be topic banned. This noticeboard affair is just an end run by the OP editor who couldn't get his way, and even refused to abide by compromises and consensus for various statements that were restored to the article (they were there for the longest time to begin with). Now you know. -- Gwillhickers 05:56, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Don't try to deflect here. Jefferson, for all his genius, was a man of his time and place, but the subject here is you and your behavior, not Jefferson's. You say you are not a racist, but your edits and commentary belie that. You need to be topic banned. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's one of the points I've always stressed -- Jefferson in his time and place and all the realities he had to deal with. As for my "behavior", there's not one thing I've said or done that is "racist". My observation of Bond's behavior and long history of racially divisive remarks was and is warranted. I've also compared slavery in Brazil and the Caribbean to the U.S., per Jefferson in particular, in the hopes of bringing some perspective to the biography -- not as any sort of excuse for slavery. For you or anyone to try and spin it into anything else is vindictive and simply wrong. -- Gwillhickers 07:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Above you wrote, "My observation of Bond's behavior and long history of racially divisive remarks", but this is not anything close to what you wrote about Bond on October 3. Rather, you said that if talk page participants wanted to "see" bias they only had to "look at" Bond and Swann-Wright.[45] There was absolutely no comment back then about Bond's behavior or his remarks, and that sort of information was not at the URL you brought forward. Binksternet (talk) 20:45, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Unbelievable. Gwillhickers was not aware that Beyond Ken was being saracastic with his comment above. Beyond Ken saracastically said that Gwillhickers was attempting to "restore some balance to the issue of slavery. For too long now, all we've heard are the bad things about slavery, while all the good stuff have been ignored or actively suppressed. We need someone like you to insure that our coverage of slavery is as fair and balanced as possible. Well done!!" Of course, most editors understood that Beyond Ken was being sarcastic, however, Gwillhickers actually went on Beyond Ken's talk page and thanked him for these comments. This concerns me, as this indicates that Gwillhickers actually supports this belief. "Hi Beyond My Ken, Thanks for your comments at the Noticeboard!." I am unsure of the process, but I believe that there are already the necessary votes to topic ban this person from the pages noted above. Thanks. Joe bob attacks (talk) 15:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Talk about "confrontational". As I said, this was a general thank you and a request for clarification as I saw the apparent sarcasm but assumed good faith and asked for clarification. You make statements about the debate spilling over to a talk page, which we were already informed about, and then turn around and drag the entire discussion, such that it was, a couple of sentences, here at the noticeboard. Now you're trying to twist it into something that says I think slavery was a good thing. Unbelievable. This is yet another example of the malicious underhanded tact that has been resorted to, not only here, but on the Jefferson talk page where you've attempted similar sniping. And I like to think it takes more than just votes to ban (censure) anyone from a topic but actual reasons that stand up to objective scrutiny. I can only hope that those in charge here can see past the sort of sniping and race baiting that has been resorted to here. Well, if anything, you've demonstrated why there is so much arguing and disagreement on the Jefferson talk page. -- Gwillhickers 19:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• A general thank you to someone who says and I quote "we've heard are the bad things about slavery, while all the good stuff have been ignored or actively suppressed. We need someone like you to insure that our coverage of slavery is as fair and balanced as possible. Well done." It's a serious problem for you not to see that it's a serious problem for you to agree with a statement like that. Consider this our last conversation. I will no longer respond to you directly, as it is becoming far too contentious. Thanks. Joe bob attacks (talk) 20:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Please note that the above sarcastic quote is not mine, and that Joe Bob is, once again, contentiously trying to make it seem that it is. This less than honest sniping needs to stop. -- Gwillhickers 21:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, I am not trying to work in any underhanded fashion here. Instead, I am making a very public statement about your disruption in an effort to fix the problem. If I were simply trying to win a content dispute everyone here would quickly see through the deception, and my reputation would suffer greatly. I value my reputation here on Wikipedia, so the fact that I am taking this major step at ANI is a gamble for me, a risk I am taking because of the seriousness of the problem I am reporting. Binksternet (talk) 00:12, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• You have taken the simple observations I have made and tried to pass them off as racist. That is very underhanded. The article was stable for quite some time and all I attempted to do was return it to its prior state, so your apparent concern for disruptive behavior is questionable, esp since on several occasions you abandoned the discussion and went ahead and made edits anyway. Every point brought to your attention (political realities faced by Jefferson, sources, etc) was ultimately ignored by you as you couldn't refute the points made. That is why you are here and for no other reason. -- Gwillhickers 00:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers' posts removed from the original post where they were inserted disruptively. Binksternet 00

12, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the RFCU

Ebanony and Parkwells were largely responsible for bloating the section to an absurd five pages in length and since then they have harbored a resentment for my calling attention to the problem, establishing a consensus, and fixing the problem, The reason Ebanony's complaint at the NOR noticeboard was ignored is becuase it was a basless accusation and simply an act of revenge for my bringing attention to a problem that needed to be fixed. You (Binksternet) are behaving in a similar fashion, simply because things have not gone your way. -- Gwillhickers 21:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the Julian Bond and Dianne Swann-Wright comment

Making the legitimate observations I have made is not racist, at all. You (Binksternet) are simply playing on feelings of racism and trying to rally support that you couldn't get on the Thomas Jefferson page. If anything, your behavior and methods should be called into question. -- Gwillhickers 21:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Regarding observations about slavery at the U.S. article talk page

This is really getting ridiculous. I pointed out that the life expectancy for slaves in Brazil and the Caribbean was about seven years, compared to the United States were slaves lived out their lives and were able to multiply. This is "racist" comment?? This is typical of the distortions you (Binksternet) have made on my behalf in your underhanded effort to goad me away from participation on the Thomas Jefferson page. -- Gwillhickers 21:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Insert : That's not quite how you worded it. However, even if you attempted to word it the way you just did, you're essentially saying "Come on now, it wasn't that bad." Wikipedia is not the place for statements like this. Thanks.Joe bob attacks (talk) 04:21, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

"Come on now..."?? Now you're putting words into my mouth. We were discussing the treatment of slaves. The analogy was made to point out that slavery in the U.S., and in particular regarding Jefferson, was dealt with in an entirely different manner than it was in Africa, Brazil and other parts of the world. When someone closely examines the history and the manner in which Jefferson treated slaves they see a very different picture than the one you would apparently have us believe. -- Gwillhickers 05:37, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Yet another unsourced statement. Please provide your sources. I would like to read about how Jefferson's slaves (excluding the Hemings, who clearly had a special place on Monticello), were treated in relation to the treatement of slaves in Brazil and Africa. Again, these are blanket statements that need to be sourced. I say this b/c you asked me on the other talk page to be specific with you. I am also not insinuating that editors cannot discuss things without sourcing every detail, but you are making blanket statements to bolster your argument. These statements should be sourced.Joe bob attacks (talk) 14:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Joe bob just gave us another good reason to keep Gwhillickers around. Did you check Ira Berlin’s Many thousands gone: the first two centuries of slavery in North America (2000)? In his first chapters he contrasts the first sugar slavery regimes under Spanish and Portuguese and those of the English in sugar and tobacco in North America. Later, Berlin documents variations among slave masters labor relations with their slave workforce, both in the American South and within the same crop cultivations, I regret the volume is not readily at hand for a page cite. ----- I have at hand only Edmund S. Morgan, American Slavery American Freedom: the ordeal of colonial Virginia, (1975) p. 301, slaves on Barbados plantations had to be replaced at a rate of about 6 percent per year, while those in Virginia retained their health and multiplied because of “the less strenuous work of cultivating tobacco, as opposed to sugar”. --- Morgan makes no particular conclusion about any moral superiority being ascribed to the Virginian tobacco plantation masters per se, only that there were variations in the slavery regime which directly affected mortality, which is Gwhillickers point. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 17:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Insert': Your point is that Morgan made "no particular conclusion." That is not the case with Gwillhickers. He is making conclusions and presenting them as factual, sometimes without sourcing his statemenets. Joe bob attacks (talk) 20:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Once again, all edits in the article are well sourced. You are only sniping at one item, "coached", on the talk page that came up in discussion. This has been addressed, yet you're still repeating that same point over and again, and then turn around and try to make an issue about why the debate is "contentious". You say one thing, but your actions are telling us a different story. -- Gwillhickers 21:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

TVH, thanks for providing some background. Joe Bob has been and continues to grasp at straws at points made on the talk page, assuming wrongly that I just go along and make things up on the fly. Most of us are well read on Jefferson and over the years our knowledge comes into play during discussion. No editor sources a discussion unless asked to do so in terms of making the statement in the actual article. This is just an other example of the measures used to sandbag opposing discussions and goad me away from topics -- and now they are being employed here. Odly, he only targets my discussions, not edits made in the actual article, which are well sourced and often entered with compromise. This sort of sniping and lack of integrity has become typical not only on the Jefferson pages, but now here. -- Gwillhickers 18:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Independent Observation

I have had dealings with Gwhillickers before on 19th Century ships and I've always found him to be helpful, collegial and knowledgable.

I've also just spent an hour reading the entire talk page discussion. I have to comment that there is something to what Gwhillickers is saying. Binkersnet and others use the racism allegations against him to justify not listening to some quite reasonable comments on content. The central theme I got from reading a lot of the discussion is that there is not universal acceptance of the alleged fathering of children by Thomas Jefferson with one of his slaves, which he does back up with sources. There has been an attempt to portray only part of the debate as universally accepted to be the truth, when there remains a range of opinions both for and against in the literature. WP:NPOV requires we reflect the entire range of opinions but IMHO there appears certain contributors who only include those they agree with. The article has also suffered historically from an obsession with the issue around this allegation. The article clearly has not followed WP:NPOV and has given WP:UNDUE prominence to this allegation. For example this statement in the lead:

“ Historical research, bolstered by DNA tests showing that a Jefferson family member was the father of one of Hemings' sons, has led to a consensus among most modern historians that widower Jefferson fathered Hemings' children. ”

This is untrue, there isn't a consensus from what I've read and Gwhillickers is correct to point this out. I'm sure someone will shortly post a quote by someone who says pretty much that (I read that this statement is "sourced" so who am I to question it). I would advise that person to learn to differentiate WP:FACT from WP:OPINION. On this Gwhillickers is correct, "Presenting a self serving opinion (i.e.most people agree with us!) as a fact is the worst sort of POV "

Equally Gwhillickers is not blameless, the remarks about members of the NAACP and TJF weren't needed in the discussion. The discussion gets lost in the hysteria about comments he made about members of the NAACP and TJF, who claim that the DNA evidence is conclusive. Though ironically some of those making the allegations of racism dismiss Gwhillickers on the basis they're "right wing". I would characterise the remark that the TJF has focused too much on slavery as another. Whilst the former clearly isn't racism, the latter can well be taken for it. This really should have been argued on the basis of WP:NPOV and WP:DUE, whilst separating WP:FACT from WP:OPINION.

There is far too much shouting, too much WP:IDHT and I will be blunt in saying there are few on that page qualified to edit in such a controversial area. Really a very large WP:BOOMERANG should be headed in the direct of the OP on this thread because their conduct has been far from ideal. And to be even more blunt, the whole thread seems to be about removing the opinion of an editor expressing the need for a range of views.

I would observe a one sided topic ban is clearly not warranted at this juncture, however, this cannot be allowed to continue to fester in the way that it has. I would propose instead that a topic ban is delivered on a number of the editors at the page, as none appear to be able to discuss the matter calmly. Wee Curry Monster talk 19:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I was about to say the same thing.--MONGO 19:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

There is a consensus and it is reliably sourced. If you think there is not, then could you point to any academic book or article that disputes the claim. TFD (talk) 19:17, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• TFD, this is far from a clear comment. There are plenty of sources on both sides of the fence as has been pointed out to you and others. All you are doing here is demonstrating a point WCM makes above. -- Gwillhickers 19:32, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• WCM, thank you for your objective and neutral assessment. I think a general and temporary topic ban for everyone, on the Jefferson page, might be in order until tempers cool down. This attempt to censure one side of the debate, currently represented by myself mostly, reflects badly on the spirit of Wikipedia altogether. -- Gwillhickers 19:32, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• Even if you were right, it does not give you license to continue arguing your one point for years when virtually every other editor has rejected it. TFD (talk) 20:06, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• That's a very bull-headed comment. You might want to read it again because I very much doubt you meant to say that.--v/r - TP 20:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• TFD, the point is argued only when an editor makes an unfounded claim ("fringe", "not published by mainstream", etc), claims that have been addressed and refuted and which you continue to ignore. You are only demonstrating why the debate drags on. I have never initiated the debate about sources, and there are plenty of other editors who agree with my assessment, so I don't appreciate your attempt to portray the situation as 'me against the world'. This ongoing attempt to distort and misrepresent my participation is quite less than honest and needs to stop. -- Gwillhickers 20:29, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• As an American history professor, I have to say that there has been consensus on this subject for a while. I say that I'm an American history professor, because I do believe this qualifies me to speak on this subject. If I were speaking on an engineering matter, it helps if someone is an engineer. I am not saying this to disparage others. To the matter at hand, these sources have been presented and are even reflected in other wikipedia pages. There is always going to be disagreement with regard to history, but POV pushing minor ideas for almost three years is a problem. I'm about to bow out of this discussion, as I only edit occasionally. I returned to this page after a 2 year absence to find that Gwillhickers was continuing to POV push. That's why I'm here. I enjoy returning to occasionally contribute, but if I'm topiced banned, along with Gwillhickers then I will accept it. I think it's more important to topic ban this particularly disruptive editor than for me to contribute. Thanks. Joe bob attacks (talk) 20:34, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you've mentioned that you are a history professor several times now and have arrogantly referred to the rest of us as "hobbyist historian"(s). In any case, after being away for two years you have evidently missed much. I am not the only one standing on this side of the fence, and many of the debates are warranted, so your obvious inference that they are not is not helping to resolve matters. You're only repeating points that have already been addressed and refuted. There is a wide body of differing opinion out there, as was pointed out to you several times now and you are again demonstrating how arguments are initiated and drag on with this repetitious account here. To be fair with my comments, I appreciate your willingness to participate in the topic ban. I am hoping that such measures aren't really necessary, at present it appears so, and that cooler minds will prevail for all of us concerned. -- Gwillhickers 20:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

A couple of points.

1. The fact that you're choosing to continue this discussion here shows you're all engaged in a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and can't let this go. Continue and you'll only convince the community I'm right and you all should be topic banned.

2. TFD I'm astounded that someone of your experience doesn't get it. No you haven't sourced a fact, you've sourced an opinion, which you're stating is a fact. You can definitely source several historical sources making that statement (and you failed to note I did make the point) but it will never make it a fact. Equally to make that statement in the authoritive wikipedia voice ignores those elements of the literature that disagree.

3. The lede is supposed to reflect the article and the actual core part of the article does explain it rather better. This is a classic example of WP:LEDE fixation.

4. I would suggest the editor referring to himself as a "history professor" ceases to argue from WP:Authority, it doesn't add to the discussion and seems more designed to close it down without a debate. BTW I am a rocket scientist, does that make my view more authorative?

5. All of you need to read and understand WP:CONSENSUS all over again, you don't have a consensus you have a group of editors agreeing with each other to ignore the views of others on a basis that isn't sustainable under wikipedia's policies.

On a final note, it is to my shame, that I came very close to not posting the above comment. And do you want to know why, its because I was concerned that in commenting I would also be labeled a racist. This is the chilling effect of allegations like this. Wee Curry Monster talk 21:15, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

"And do you want to know why, its because I was concerned that in commenting I would also be labeled a racist." I felt the same way.--v/r - TP 21:20, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm really not at all sure what Wee Curry Monster is arguing here. So "you all should be topic banned" How nonsensical is that? What does "you all" mean. "No you haven't sourced a fact, you've sourced an opinion, which you're stating is a fact." What exactly does that mean? The only way to show consensus of historians is to either read everything written and somehow tabulate it (which could be construed as OR) or to find authoritative voices who say 'there is a consensus'. Also the question of whether it is a historical fact that Jefferson fathered Hemings' children is quite separate from the question of whether there is a consensus of historians that who have the opinion that he did (though obviously we would hope that history and historians are consistent with one another). It remains unclear to me what "fact" and what "opinion" you are referring to. It must be remembered that this is a pretty recent turn-around of opinion, so older literature will obviously reflect the pre-DNA POV. And yes, its possible, if you really really want to, to say some other Jefferson relative might have fathered her children, because, well, we don't have 100% proof or video surveillance evidence. You say "you don't have a consensus you have a group of editors agreeing with each other to ignore the views of others on a basis that isn't sustainable under wikipedia's policies." But what "policies" are those? The views of some editors get "ignored" all the time in line with policies, and quite properly, when they try to push fringe sources or overstate the significance of a minority position. Paul B (talk) 21:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I presumed you're familiar with WP:FACT and WP:OPINION? And this isn't a WP:FRINGE opinion, I am well aware of the difference. There is plenty of dissenting opinion in the literature; its in the article and the lede doesn't reflect the article

The way things stand I would definitely suggest both sides of this polarised discussion are topic banned, they're both exhibiting WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. This [46] posting is described by you as a racist [47], it wasn't, the assertion is made that is was repeatedly and its used as a pretext for ignoring the subsequent comments. Can I ask if you reviewed the talk page, or just the diffs above. Once I had done the latter the initial impression I had proved to be misleading. Wee Curry Monster talk 22:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

WCM: I cannot speak for the current article, but Wikipedia does make representations about "most historians" in our articles, see Academic consensus:

• Smithsonian Museum
• American President: A Reference Resource from the University of Virginia
• United States National Park Service Jefferson Biography
• Monticello
• Britannica

But I am no longer involved there so you are welcome to deal with it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:37, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

ASW, no one has said we shouldn't mention "most historians" only that other significant viewpoints get fair representation.
Quote from WP policy and Jimbo:

Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints.
If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents.

This was done on the talk page a couple of weeks ago. Btw, the NPS article doesn't say anything about "most historians" regarding Hemings, but your point still stands. -- Gwillhickers 21:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

WCM' you are right, the debate is getting out of hand. Unless someone makes another distorted accusation on my behalf I am willing to bow out at this point, but it's very difficult to sit still for some of the stuff being tossed around here. -- Gwillhickers 21:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

As discussed previously "most" does not mean "all". Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:56, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that link on WP:RS, I was unaware of that aspect of policy. Yes I saw that list on the talk page but also those below.

These are simply dismissed in talk as "right wing", so the sources the editors find supports the position they want are OK but not others. Really that isn't how wikipedia works is it? Wee Curry Monster talk 22:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

The problem there is of course going through and evaluating those sources, but the prerequisite is do any of them directly -- expressly -- deny the RS statement "most historians." And Gwill has been repeatedly asked to identify any that expressly argue that. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:20, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

You're asking to prove a negative. "Prove to me that someone said that no one said this..."--v/r - TP 22:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

No. We are trying to represent what the RS directly say, not what they do not say. (see WP:NOR)-- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:37, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

No, you're trying to say that some RS's claim a majority opinion which gives you leeway to ignore others. So essentially, the "trump card" is for any RS to claim majority opinion whether that is true or not. Is that something we need to go ahead and add to WP:RS? It seems to me that it would be a primary source on it's own opinion, to be honest. "We believe this, and everyone else agrees because we said so" is essentially what you're saying the RS says and that we need to abide by it.--v/r - TP 22:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I plead guilty to trying to faithfully follow what the sources directly say. If there is a consensus to reject all those sources, just because we know everything better than they do based on our own reading of sources that don't directly address the RS, count me and NOR out.Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

If a source makes a claim about its own position, is that specific claim third party or primary?--v/r - TP 23:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

If I may observe some sources are followed but others that are contradictory are not. TParis makes a good point about sourcing claims of academic consensus. Wee Curry Monster talk 23:07, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

All sources, primary, secondary, or tertiary state their own propositions. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:17, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

If we have sources that say A and sources that say B, and also have reliable sources that say that A is the majority view, then indeed that is what we report. No matter how many B sources we find ourselves (and in this case B sources are very limited in recent scholarship). In order to not report that A is the majority view, we would need to not just have B sources, but to have sources that claim that B is the majority, or at least that explicitly deny that A is the majority. This is exactly the difference between OR (we count A and B and do our own analysis) and following WP:RS, hopefully written by people that have a good overview of the literature. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:09, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Note quite, here have sources that say A and opine theirs is the majority view and sources that say B. What we don't have is a peer review of academic literature that state A is the majority view based on a good overview of the literature. Worse the opinion of A is used to ignore B. Even if the ideal situation you describe had existed you would not suggest we do not include B, even if it were a WP:MINORITY opinion unless it could be accurately dismissed as a WP:FRINGE. Wee Curry Monster talk 23:37, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Just linking policy and guidekline pages you've already linked does nothing to advance your POV or make it any more coherent. You have not even responded to the question. A "peer review of academic literature" is not required and is in fact a meaningless concept in this field. Such things really do not exist in historical studies. Paul B (talk) 10:27, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

"Most historians" does not ignore that there are other historians. Moreover, the Smithsonian source was taken to the RS notice board a last year and considered RS for "most historians." -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• I only edit occasionally and yes this is my profession. I did not know it was inappropriate to mention this, as I have done a great amount of research in this field. I have come to this page to discuss what I have seen as pervasive POV pushing. Perhaps I am too invested in this, which is why I will remove myself from this debate after this post. And I have to disagree. There has been significant peer review and consensus on these topics. But before I bow out, I wanted to make a clarification that neither myself or other editors have called Gwillhickers right wing and we are not here because of his views, but because of his persistent and pervasive POV pushing. With regard to consensus, I will be glad to provide a plethora of sources that constitute a majority view if needed to bolster the point that Gwhillhickers is in fact pushing minor ideas and fringe sources. If anyone would like me to pull this together please see my talk page. I will no longer visit this page, as I am removing myself from this debate. Thanks. Joe bob attacks (talk) 23:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) We need 3rd party independent sources that claim A is the majority. We do not allow A to claim itself as the majority. A is a primary source on itself.--v/r - TP 23:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

There are sources which tell us what is the majority view about whether Jefferson had a child by Hemings. I put one of those into the TJ talk page: Kenneth Morgan's Slavery in America: A Reader and Guide, University of Georgia Press, 2005, ISBN 0820327921. Morgan is a British historian at Brunel University in London. His book is "designed specially for undergraduate course work" so it is a general survey. Morgan writes, "Scientific evidence, based on DNA studies done in 1998, has shown that rumours about the intimate connections of Jefferson and Hemings were true beyond reasonable doubt (see Document 3)." At Document 3 Morgan cites three studies. French historian François Weil writes in his book Family Trees that the 1998 DNA tests were challenged by some, but a "majority of observers... accepted the very high probability that Jefferson was the father of several of Sally Heming's children."[48] The fact that objective British and French historians have recently assessed the literature and come up with "beyond reasonable doubt" about the paternity link between Jefferson and Hemings tells me that this is the mainstream view. Gwillhickers would have us believe that his list of authors who question the connection have a strong position; they do not. Binksternet (talk) 13:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

This is completely nonsensical, and is not in line with any policy. Anyone expert enough to express an opinion about the consensus of scholars in a field will, almost by definition, be themselves an expert, and almost certain to have a view. We do not demand a third party of non-climate scientists to say that Global Warming is the consensus view, since the "third party", by your defintion would be a non-expert, and thus not a reliable source. We do not need a non-expert on Shakespeare to say that the view that Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare is fringe. We need experts on Shakespeare, by definition. Your demand is impossible to reconcile with policy, since it would mean that we would value the view of, say, a journalist with no expertise, over experts in the field because he/she would be a "third party". Paul B (talk) 10:27, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

My view is completely in line with policy. It's called WP:PRIMARY. Just because the burden of evidence is high doesn't make it wrong. Any single person claiming academic consensus should be a high burden. Else, as I've said, you create an academic "trump card" where the first academic to claim they have majority view wins.--v/r - TP 12:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Your view is wholly inconsistent with policy for the reasons I have stated. WP:PRIMARY is utterly irrelevant. It says nothing whatever about this issue; WP:RS/AC is the relevant policy, which makes no such fantastical and impossible demands. There can never be no "independent" third-party in such cases for reasons I explained and which, unsurprisingly, you have not responded to other than by the tired expedient of sticking in a "WP:xyz" link hich says nothingh whatever about the issue at hand. Your last sentence is amusing. Claiming one is in the majority is not an argument. I'm surprised that you seem to think that academics think they can "win" a debate by saying they are in a majority! They may very well wish to claim to be in a minority, if they want to assert precedence for innovation. Or perhaps you think they are trying to "win" the right to have their views identified as mainstream on Wikipedia. You seem to be trying to apply ideas used to assess medical and other scientific literature to the humanities, but there is no such thing as systematic "reviews of previous studies" in history. Ideas enter the mainstream in a less systematic way. Paul B (talk) 13:08, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

"Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved." When it comes to discussing their own viewpoint, they are directly involved. They can talk from a disconnected viewpoint on the subject, but when speaking about their own conclusions they are primary. I've lost patience with your brick wall so I'm just going to ignore your comments from here on out.--v/r - TP 14:27, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Yours is the brick wall, since you seem to unaware of how nonsensical this view is. As has been pointed out by others all sources are "primary sources", in your (mis)interpretation of the concept, for any conclusions they reach, including the assertion that there is a consensus, or a majority view. Inevitably, it will be their own viewpoint that there is a consensus. Almost inevitably the source, if it is reliable, will be from an expert who is therefore likely to share that consensus. The consensus of experts on Shakespeare is that he wrote Hamlet. The experts who assert this, and who are quoted on the Shakespeare authorship question page, also believe that he did. According to you, that makes them "primary sources", and, apparently, makes their view inadmissible. This would mean that virtually every page that quotes high quality academic sources on the topic of academic consensus unacceptable. This is Alice in Wonderland logic. Paul B (talk) 19:19, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'm confused. We have several reliable sources that report explicitly on the overall state of the academic discussion. These are tertiary sources with respect to the underlying issue (TJ and SJ and their offspring). They are secondary with respect to the academic debate (who says what about TJ and SJ and their offspring, and is there a consensus). If you declare them as "primary", because (of course) they make statements, and hence are primary with respect to their own content, then all sources are primary, and the whole hierarchy of sources collapses. This is not and never has been a useful interpretation, not even on Wikipedia, where there are some idiosyncrasies with respect to the terms. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

That's not what I've said Stephan. Sources secondary to the viewpoints themselves are exactly what I am saying we need to determine a majority viewpoint.--v/r - TP 14:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The University of Virginia, the Smithsonian, and the Thomas Jefferson Foundation are all well known independent academic publishers, expert in Jefferson and History. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

TP, I disagree. Facts are facts and opinions are opinions. If I say the evidence shows that Jefferson was the father, that is an opinion. If I say most historians agree, that is a statement of fact. Academic articles undergo a peer review process which checks whether or not the facts presented are correct. If someone writes for example that most historians believe the moon landing was faked, 9/11 was an inside job, etc., that is a factual inaccuracy, regardless of what the writer believes or what the truth happens to be. If someone who believed that Jefferson was not the father wrote an article that said most historians thought he was not the father, peer-review would not allow it because it is false. Of course no academic articles or books have been published that claim Jefferson was not the father because it is not possible to make a case based on available evidence that he was not. In summary, while it may not be a proved fact that Jefferson was the father, it is a proved fact that most historians believe he was. And Gwillickers has argued against that for years, yet has failed to provide a single peer-reviewed source that says otherwise. Instead he provides a link to pictures of dark-skinned historians and says, look at them, how can they be unbiased. Smeat75, no. This appears to be his only issue in Wikipedia. TFD (talk) 02:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

No, that's not the case, he made a comment you and others presumed was based on the race of the individuals, which he later clarified was based on opinions they expressed. You all then poked him for a month trying to get something intemperate out of him, then posted here shouting he was a racist, ban him. ANI doesn't exist to help you win a content dispute by topic banning an editor whose opinions you don't like. Wee Curry Monster talk 06:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Gwillickers wrote, "If you want to see acute bias all you have to do is look at some of the key staff members at the TJF, starting with TJF board member Julian Bond, President of the NAACP and Dianne Swann-Wright, Director of African American and "special programs" at TJF."[49] If you "look at" the links, both appear to be African American. Gwillickers later said that he meant the NAACP is a "leftist liberal" "pressure group" that "dictates policy" for the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, the organization that manages Monticello. What are we supposed to be looking at on the link to Swann-Wright, which does not say she is a member of the NAACP? TFD (talk) 13:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

So you assume he must mean to look at the pictures and he must intend for us to notice that, indeed, they aren't Caucasian. And based on your assumption, which seems to be all that is required here, we are meant to call this person a racist?--v/r - TP 14:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Regardless, look past that then. On what basis is it appropriate to impugn Dianne Swann-Wright with ad hominem on a Wikipedia talk page. It is an embarrassment for Wikipedia to have such a thing occur, as well as being against Wikipedia policy. It can only dismay anyone who cares if Wikipedia is taken with respect, it does not give. We do not want to treat Swann-Wright who has done nothing wrong, who could herself be excellent knowledgeable Wikipedian, with such baseless disregard as to her reputation. Even if she never would contribute, it is still reprehensible. I, for one, cannot be any part of it, and I am guessing there are others like me. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:06, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

That also makes no sense. You want to ban someone because they might have offended the subject of an article? I guarantee that I've made my opinion of Sue Gardner obvious and she both has an article about her and edits here. By your reasoning, I should be banned? We arn't a project of 'everyone believes the same thing'. I can get on board with banning someone over racism, or even in the case of Dianne sexism as well if it exists, but absolutely not just because we might offend someone.--v/r - TP 02:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

This is not about you, so whatever you have done is irrelevant. I said nothing about offense. Baseless denigration of living people is against policy. And no, that is not the only reason for the topic ban. Alanscottwalker (talk) 07:43, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Just to correct you Alan, in this case the guy just didn't out of the blue decide to criticise those people, he did so in response to having a bunch of his sources criticised and discarded for being written by people who were "right wing". It was therefore done in response to similar criticism. That doesn't make it right but I don't hear you criticising those who were the catalyst for the response. You do no one any favours for criticising this response but not what prompted it. BOTH comments were inappropriate, there is bad behaviour on both sides. Wee Curry Monster talk 08:44, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

If this were about others, then it would appropriate to comment about that. Making it even more perplexing is Gwillhickers has used the Thomas Jefferson Foundation as a source. Julian Bond, for example, was never proposed as a source by anyone. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:12, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, you prove my point in a way I could never have demonstrated, classic WP:IDHT and WP:NOTTHEM. You assert the poking that caused the comment can't be discussed, 'cos this ain't about them. Really, did you just say that? Wee Curry Monster talk 11:26, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I did not say that. Did you read what I wrote? Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:35, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Alan - this thread, like all threads, are about the entire issue. The scope is not limited to what the OP chooses for us. Give Wikipedia:BOOMERANG a read. Specifically: "A common statement on noticeboards is "this isn't about me, this is about them". There is sometimes a belief that, if someone's perceived misbehavior is reported at a noticeboard, the discussion can only focus on the original complaint, and turning the discussion around to discuss the misbehavior of the original reporter is "changing the subject" and therefore not allowed. However, that just isn't the case. Anyone who participates in the discussion might find their actions under scrutiny."--v/r - TP 12:35, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I did not say 'this isn't about me', although no one has said that it is. But, yes something like it is done all the time -- it is also often judged to be deflection. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:35, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You said "If this were about others, then it would appropriate to comment about that." This is about everyone involved. It always is. And it has only ever been called deflection by those who receive the microscope on their edits. ANI as a body has never considered it deflection.--v/r - TP 20:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

What ANI body? Individual Users post here. And they make their own judgements. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Don't be silly. A community is made up of individuals. Not once has a thread ignored all components of an issue because of 'deflection'. And even if you could prove it happening in a single instance, I can show you thousands where a thread reviews everyone's actions.--v/r - TP 18:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Don't be what? It is impossible for every comment and every thread within a large discussion to do what you claim. Also, your continued vague reference to "everyone involved" is unhelpful, unfocused and unfair. It is unfair to demand anyone to comment on unnamed "others." Especially, if they do not feel comfortable to do so. Are you asking me to comment on me? About what, exactly? Were you asking me above (in yours of 02:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)) to comment on your actions? I won't do so. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:12, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not going to play magic circus act with you, Alan. You want to talk about deflection, you've clearly just demonstrated that. You want to talk about WP:ANI and "off-topic", well you're in the extreme minority on your view ("If this were about others, then it would appropriate to comment about that"). That's all I've got to say on the matter.--v/r - TP 19:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Your invective is unappreciated. You misconstrued what I was referring to with "this," and why I did not want to comment on unnamed "others," apparently. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I do not miscontrue it, Alanscottwalker. I could tell you, "you got to eat what's on your plate", but I think that the game rather was: what you put in front of it shows, what you think it's worth. That's why Gwillhicker was entitled to thinking, "what's the bad manners" whatever you might think of what's been going on. -- Askedonty (talk) 22:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I am unaware of Gwill telling me in our prior interactions that I treated him with bad manners, and I don't think I have intended to do so (or if I have, at least without apology but I don't recall any specific instance), he has indicated the opposite. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:28, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I did not mean "thinking of you" - miscontruations regenerate with any other new ambiguous declaration obviously; I'm happy if this is bringing you back to more positive considerations. --Askedonty (talk) 23:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Gwillickers contributions

• Question. I gather Jefferson is a hero for Gwillhickers. Does Gwillhickers contribute usefully to the Jefferson article on aspects other than the "did he have children with one of his slaves" matter? If so, it seems a pity to topic ban him from Jefferson altogether.Smeat75 (talk) 01:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, Gwhillickers has made contributions on the Jefferson page in a collegial way as has been attested by adversaries above, and they have persisted over many subsequent edits relative to DNA, slavery, illustrations, bibliography, profession, captions, marriage, citations and formatting, Monticello, Louisiana Purchase, University of Virginia and others. These are apart from Talk Page answering personal attacks on his sources by making personal attacks on other's sources, which I believe is not productive on anyone's part.

Binksternet pointed out above, "Gwillhickers was recently Editor of the Week at the Editor Retention Project. He does a lot of work on 18th and 19th century naval battles." Slaves were rented for sailors in the US Navy both in the Revolution and in the War of 1812, GWs time period. In Black Jacks: African American Seamen in the Age of Sail, W. Jeffrey Bolster at U. of New Hampshire notes no American slave accepted the offer to be a free British seaman in the prisoner of war camps. The proposed GW ban on the subject of slavery would also inappropriately interfere with his possible contributions in naval history at Wikipedia. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 09:35, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers has made useful and constructive edits to the article, certainly. One of them was a slight trim from May 2013 in response to a talk page request. What we have to decide here is whether his disruptive talk page behavior and revert warring in the article overbalance his positive contributions. Binksternet (talk) 15:39, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

According to the topic ban proposal above, the edit warring charge was not held to apply to Gwhillickers. I have no information to overturn the previous holding, and that is not the focus of this proposal. Rather Gwhillickers now finds his sources personally attacked and he replies in kind on the Talk Page, and some then some object to the same inappropriate tactics they use being turned on their own sources by Gwhillickers. Now Gwhillickers is accused as a racist for pointing out variations in Virginia's mid-1700s and early-1800s slavery regimes on different plantations and comparatively internationally.

As his fundamental positions are supported for a quarter century of scholarship on the subject of slavery and the South and Virginia from Morgan (1975) to Berlin (2000), taking things personally is not good for Wikipedia collegiality, it seems to me. Rather modern scholars or WP editors need to consult the literature on a given topic first, with the seriousness as though they were pursuing a thesis or dissertation. Gwhillickers is acknowledged as being well read in the historiographic literature, and contrarian to the most recent modern scholars. That alone is not reason enough for banning on the topics of Thomas Jefferson and slavery as proposed. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 20:09, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers' contributions to this thread

Gwillhickers, you may want to ration your responses in this discussion. By my count, you have posted 30 times, about half of them after you said you were conditionally "willing to bow out at this point". I'm sorry the conditions have apparently not been fulfilled, and that you find it necessary to keep up such a barrage (wiktionary:barrage, sense 2, 3, and 4). I don't think it's doing the impression of you or your cause any good. And the thread is becoming so bloated there's probably a rapidly diminishing chance that uninvolved editors will be able to face reading it. Less is more. Bishonen | talk 00:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC).

Insert : Not nearly half. This noticeboard affair is about me, per my talk page activities, so it's kinda difficult to sit by and not address any unfair new comments when they are made. There are several editors who have made repetitive statements about myself and have added quite a bit of text to the page to that effect. I have enough dumped on my shoulders without someone sitting there counting my edits and then trying to make an issue about it, while complaining about the section becoming "bloated" at the same time. -- Gwillhickers 18:32, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Just open up an RFC/U if you want a streamlined discussion. I don't see why this was brought to ANI anyways. KonveyorBelt 00:57, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The 2011 RFCU accomplished nothing which is why I did not open up another one. Here at ANI some solution can be found, one that sticks. Binksternet (talk) 21:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree, this should never have been brought to ANI. And this is good advice to Gwillhickers, whilst I realise it is difficult to sit on your hands while people are criticising you, responding to everyone leads to the conclusion you have a WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality. Trust me, been there and learned the lesson the hard way. Wee Curry Monster talk 08:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

WeeCM', your advice is well taken, I will certainly try harder. This whole affair is very disappointing. If I should make any new comments they will be brief and directed at any new editors who make unfair comments that need to be addressed and clarified. -- Gwillhickers 18:30, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

My advice is don't, simply ignore them. Wee Curry Monster talk 19:56, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Julian Bond

For the record, although Gwillhickers states above that Julian Bond is the "head" of the Thomas Jefferson Foundation (in his 19:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC) comment) and elsewhere has said he is on the board. Those claims appear to be false: [50]. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 08:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

For the record the link provided seems to indicate that Bond is associated with the TJF and is a member of its "community." I found several sources for a "Monticello Getting Word Board" on which Bond appears to have served. Anyone know what that board is/was? Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:25, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Seek/Find [51]. Comments from Barger. The implication is that the TJS named the members of that group. which means that "false" appears to ne less correct than "overstatement" here -- "false" implies zero direct connection, which might not be the case. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:31, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

"[A]ppears to be false" does not imply that. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Julian Bond Bond is on the Board of Selectors of Jefferson Awards for Public Service.

Ever thought it might be just a simple mistake? Elsewhere he stated correctly he was president of the NAACP. Wee Curry Monster talk 11:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

There was no speculation on why it happened. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

What was your point here? Wee Curry Monster talk 12:00, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

To correct the representation about a living person and an organization. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:20, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Which does serve to illustrate how easily a posting in text can be misconstrued, as I (and it would appear Collect) took it to imply you were indicating dishonesty by Gwillhickers. Thank you for clearing that up. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:00, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Dan Jordan is the defacto head of TJF. Bond was or is the Chairman of the Monticello Study and the Getting Word project, so I am indeed in error in as much as he is not 'the' top guy at TJF. My concern was only about his involvement there and his past history of racially divisive comments as he is heavily involved in partisan politics, equating republicans (of which I am not) to the Nazi's etc, calling them “the white people’s party” and “a crazed swarm of right-wing locusts.” He has referred to America overall as a racist nation, which is sort of ridiculous as Obama won the election because most of his votes came from white voters. On the Jefferson talk page I linked to TJF simply to show that Bond was involved there. That is hardly a "racist" action. Just for the record, I think most Republicans and Democrats should be put in orange jump suits and doing community service. -- Gwillhickers 19:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Daniel P. Jordan appears to be President Emeritus of the TJF, the current President is Leslie Greene Bowman, according to [52], and the Foundation's board is also listed there and Bond is not on it. Under WP:BLP, be well-sourced, precise and careful in making biographical representations, anywhere on Wikipedia including its talk pages. It should, of course, also be relevant. BLP policy takes a dim view of mistake ('get it right'), or poor sourcing (eg., magazine comments are not RS for representations about other people, see WP:BLPSPS and WP:SPS). It also does not appear to be well sourced or accurate that, "Julian Bond was or is Chairman of the Monticello Study and the Getting Word project". The link above to a magazine comment (which is not RS, for this) does not even state that, it suggests someone else (who is unnamed) was Chairman, although Bond is also mentioned in that comment. While these are biographical details, the representations having been made need to be correct (or corrected) and well sourced. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposals

This section is rapidly descending into a festering boil of allegation and counter allegation. After reviewing the original comments and the talk page discussion it is far from clear the subject of this report made a racist comment as alleged. I've also noted this was done in response to some equally inappropriate comments by the OP denouncing sources on the basis of their origin. Both sides have behaved inappropriately I would suggest. The behaviour on both sides is unlikely to promote consensus building. I have two proposals to lance this boil. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:11, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Find a diff or two where I'm "denouncing sources on the basis of their origin" and this pair of proposals should be considered. Otherwise not. You will find I have never denounced a source on the Jefferson talk page, let alone because of its origin, whatever that means. I reserve the right to denounce a poor quality source but I have not yet done so. Binksternet (talk) 21:49, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 1

Proposal 1 is for a community topic ban for a period of 3 months for User:Alanscottwalker, User:Binksternet, User:The Four Deuces, User:Joe bob attacks and User:Gwillhickers on all subjects related to Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings broadly construed. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:11, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose As proposer I have to note this is not my favoured option as all are valued contributors. I could support this if they don't agree to mediation on this. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:11, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
• Option 2 --v/r - TP 13:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Diff's for banning me from anything? Any Policy basis? Or is this not a serious proposal, since it's opposed by its proposer? Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:41, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

ASW, though you have not given me support here, you have not been given to spiteful and malicious allegations and your activity on the Jefferson pages has been minimal. Though you may have had your moments, none that I can remember, you have been a voice of mediation in the past. If anyone should be given a cooling down period it should be Binksternet, Joe Bob' and myself. -- Gwillhickers 18:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I hesitated to include you Alan, but this comment above tipped the balance for reasons of WP:IDHT and WP:NOTTHEM. It appears to be asserting we should not be considering the comments that elicited the response that is alleged to be racist, which are equally inappropriate. Personally I would prefer this to go down the WP:DR route. I don't think anyone needs to be topic banned but the nature of the discussion on the talk page is currently unhealthy. Wee Curry Monster talk 19:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I am perfectly capable and within policy of saying what I will and will not comment and upon, and where I will or will not do so. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Race is not the issue. Gwillickers has argued against other editors about the phrasing of the reference to Jefferson's illegitimate children for four years. He has never been able to obtain support for his views despite a turnover of editors, and it makes no sense to ban him and four of the editors who oppose his view. Why he believes what he believes is irrelevant, he is flogging a dead horse. Incidentally, you are the last person I thought saw Jefferson as a plaster saint. What next, freedom for the Malvinas? TFD (talk) 02:10, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, there should be no issue of racism in regards to Gwhillickers. No one needs to be banned from the page. This thread should be closed, minority scholarship in the DNA controversy can be admitted to the narrative, and we can all get along, TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 07:12, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for acknowledging racism isn't an issue, why then pray is that allegation the central theme of the case for this topic ban proposal. Oh and I don't see Jefferson as a plaster saint by the way but that ain't the issue. 09:53, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

This 'proposal 1' is for a group of contributing editors to be banned from the TJ page. I am not agreed to banning any of them. I am for stating a majority view on the DNA scholarship along with a minority view in the narrative, as provided for in WP policy. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:55, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 2

All parties agree to participate in a RFC or take the dispute to WP:DRN to request community input on the best means to described the Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings controvery and agree to abide by the outcome. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:11, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support As proposer, I favour WP:DR over community sanctions. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:11, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 There are problems in this topic area that span much greater than Gwillhickers. Aside from a couple particularly heated comments from some individuals, it seems to me that everyone is acting in good faith. When parties are acting in good faith, that is a perfect opportunity for WP:DRN to work.--v/r - TP 13:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 per TParis. Since everyone has been assuming good faith at the moment, I think I would take this case to WP:DRN. However, I have been uninvolved in the Thomas Jefferson dispute at the moment. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 14:04, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
• The last RfC on this user solved some of the problems. Maybe dispute resolution would help before starting another. It's worth a try, now that everyone's calmed down a bit. --Coemgenus (talk) 12:54, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose He has already had an RfC, see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Gwillhickers, and there is no reason to take an issue to DRN when only one person opposes the view of almost every editor who has visited the talk page in the last four years. TFD (talk) 02:27, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal is for a binding RFC not an RFC/U, there has been no attempt at WP:DR and that is why this has not been resolved. Proceeding to advocate a topic ban for one editor to shut them up isn't the answer. Wee Curry Monster talk 09:56, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

DRN is never binding. And there is no reason for any editor to go to DRN because one editor disagrees with the overwhelming majority. The fact that the one dissenter has failed to use DRN is another reason for a topic ban. TFD (talk) 21:06, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Now a reason to ban is that an editor has not used DRs to complainants satisfaction? Why did not more experienced editors bring a DR? Should majority scholarship blank minority scholarship in a controversy? They would have to demonstrate WP:FRINGE --- and they cannot. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:30, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support Gwhillickers fundamental positions are supported for a quarter century of scholarship on the subject of slavery and the South and Virginia from Morgan (1975) to Berlin (2000). He is acknowledged as being well read in the historiographic literature, and contrarian to the most recent modern scholars. That alone is not reason enough for banning on the topics of Thomas Jefferson and slavery as proposed. WP policy admits the expression of both sides in a scholarly controversy, the majority need not mask the minority entirely in the narrative. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 06:57, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 3

No action required. Can't we all get along? Close this thread. Carrite (talk) 01:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Carrite (talk) 01:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose as an involved editor. Gwillhickers needs some mentoring/monitoring on avoiding a battleground mentality. Yopienso (talk) 02:12, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose This editor has argued a position no one else supports for four years. A ban would allow him to consider why he was unable to work with other editors, during which time you could try to help him. TFD (talk) 02:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support Gwhillickers has made contributions on the Jefferson page in a collegial way as has been attested by adversaries above, and they have persisted over many subsequent edits relative to DNA, slavery, illustrations, bibliography, profession, captions, marriage, citations and formatting, Monticello, Louisiana Purchase, University of Virginia and others. These are apart from Talk Page answering personal attacks on his sources by making personal attacks on other's sources, which I believe is not productive on anyone's part. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 06:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support This is the solution that is best for Wikipedia. Occasional monitoring of the pages by an admin is a good idea. But let's not bias the monitoring - it should be of the pages, not just of one editor's contributions to them.--Toddy1 (talk) 08:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

This admin has been monitoring the page. Eventually, I bought some books, learned about the issues, and became WP:INVOLVED. I have a quite strong aversion to ban or block good-faith editors. But the situation is not symmetrical, neither with respect to sources, to understanding, to flexibility, or even to numbers (of people - I'm a lot less sure about number and volume of edits in the discussion). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:56, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Neutral Comment Whilst I don't disagree this shouldn't be at ANI, unless there is some attempt at WP:DR the situation in talk won't improve. Wee Curry Monster talk 09:59, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose as a silly idea. Why should we let a very clearly disruptive editor get away scot-free? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Nonsense rationale: Pick an offense, any accusation, past and present, pick a penalty, "Off with her head!", said the Queen of Hearts. --- also, one may object to the racist slur on the Scots above, or is that mere carelessness or is it clever sarcasm? I propose we let it go with a warning, lacking a sustained history of clearly intended offense by Lukeno94. No apology required. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 15:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Are you here to do anything other than troll and waste people's time? I'm doubting it. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:26, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Clever sarcasm it is. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 17:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support -- Re TFD's claim: "...no one else supports for four years"?? This is an unfair statement. I've gotten support on numerous points, past and present. Most of my edits were made with consensus and/or compromise, all well sourced. This completely one-sided and less than truthful statement has been typical and only serves to demonstrate just how objective some of the 'analysis' has been. TFD (and anyone else so inclined), please don't try to dress us challenges to arguments (which others have initiated) as "disruptive behavior". That's a cop out. I don't ignore arguments when presented as a couple of others have done, repeatedly. I have acknowledged and compromised on "most historians", special commentary in the lede, etc, time and again. Binksternet's accusations are simply an attempt to put an emotional block in front of any of the arguments I have presented. -- Regarding Julian Bond, et al, on retrospect I certainly could have chosen my words more carefully when I was calling attention to their involvements, but I was certainly not saying, "Look, they're African American, booooo!". I was trying to establish their social and political involvements by linking to the given pages at the TJF, which was warranted imo. The idea that I harbor hatred for anyone simply because of their race is a vile and baseless accusation and is a cheap stunt to duck issues that can't be challenged otherwise. In any case, I have made numerous compromises on the Jefferson pages. The OP has made none. -- Gwillhickers 19:02, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I understand TFD to refer to your reluctance to accept the current academic consensus wrt Sally Hemings or to allow TJ's flaws to be noted. Certainly you have made compromises and edit from good, if misguided, faith. You do tend to rant on the talk page, though. I would like to see you receive some coaching in NPOV and BATTLEGROUND. Yopienso (talk) 20:10, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Some form of dispute resolution might help the editors move forward and achieve a real, good-faith consensus. At the very least, Gwillhickers ought to get some mentoring, so that he might learn why he keeps finding himself in these situations and learn more constructive ways to deal with editors who disagree with him. --Coemgenus (talk) 20:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Dispute resolution is the key. I have no problem admitting that the debates get testy, or "batlleground" like if you prefer, but I think in any case where someone tries to make a case for that it can be seen that there is always another party involved. The OP is responsible for multiple WP:IDHTs, so it would help matters immensely if you would acknowledge that there are reasons for these disputes and stop assuming I am just some editor who simply likes to howl at the moon. Dispute resolution. -- Gwillhickers 01:32, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Carrite apparently has little to no experience of Gwillhickers' disruptive battleground style on talk pages, and his aggressive reverts in article space. I do have that experience, and I would like to see some closure on this matter, one that has more teeth than the strongly censuring but ultimately ignored 2011 RFCU. Binksternet (talk) 21:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

The OP speaks with an acute conflict of interest. The "aggressive reverts" involve his edits, the likes of which involve unsourced statements that didn't reflect one shred of compromise with the others in the discussions. This editor has also made some vile battleground claims in his opening statement here, e.g. "modern day stigma" against slavery, making it seem as if he would be happy to see it re-instituted." He has resorted to the same sort rhetoric on the Jefferson talk page several times right in the middle of discussions, typically after points are presented that he can't challenge. This editor has no platform to be preaching to anyone about "battleground" behavior and has committed one WP:IDHT after the other. I am open to suggestions about dispute resolution from other editors. There are still issues on the Jefferson page that need to be addressed -- like commentary for one subject only in the lede. -- Gwillhickers 01:32, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

You are welcome to explain what you meant by "modern day stigma against slavery" which you employed twice without clarification at Talk:United_States/Archive_53#Added_draft_on_slavery. Cmguy777 said he was not sure there was such a thing, but you did not explain yourself. Without any explanation, I assumed you meant that slavery was not so bad as people today say it is, that there should not be such a mark of disgrace about it. That argument is a lost cause: scholars such as Loretta J. Ross write about how slavery was so horrible that many slave women killed their own newborn infants, to prevent another soul subjugated, and to prevent their masters from seeing financial gain.[53][54] Some slave women had access to the African folk knowledge of abortion, so much so that in 1856 a white doctor reported that a number of slave owners were upset that their slaves appeared to hold a "secret by which they destroy the foetus at an early age of gestation".[55] Can you imagine thousands of mothers smothering their own newborn children, killing their own fetuses so the little soul could escape slavery? Just awful. The general state of scholarship on slavery tells us that slavery was a terrible condition for those who labored under it. Stigma refers to a mark of disgrace, reproach or infamy, so I have to assume from your word choice that you think the institution of slavery should be considered today in a manner free of reproach, free of its negative connotations. I have to assume you think slavery is okay. Binksternet (talk) 15:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The modern day stigma is the tendency to assume that slaves in the U.S. were kept in irons, wore rags, fed slop and worked to an early death. Ross is typically sniping at exceptions and ignoring the overwhelming rule. In your mind the idea of 'stigma' translates to my wanting slavery "re-instituted"?? Nice try, Bink. You have made some gross assumptions on my behalf. Given your complete lack of compromise on the talk page and your repeated WP:IDHTs and use of acute battleground behavior there, and now here, you have knocked the bottom out of any moral standing in this ANI. At this point it seems you would do well to direct your efforts at dispute resolution and try to develop a capacity for compromise. Most of us have done so. -- Gwillhickers 19:31, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - If Gwillhickers is willing to go to dispute resolution then perhaps that's the solution. But no action is not the answer. Gwillhickers has been to ANI before and will be back again. His comment above indicates that he's anxious to get back to editing the lede to his liking, "there are still issues on the Jefferson page that need to be addressed -- like commentary for one subject only in the lede." On the talk page he indicated that consensus for the lede had been reached and that I was the one bringing it up again. Apparently not. I don't want to be disruptive or beat a dead horse so at this point I'm going to bow out gracefully. I'll check on the TJ page next year. I'm sure the next round of editors will have their hands full. It's only been going on since February 2011. Thanks. Over and out. Joe bob attacks (talk) 07:39, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The ANI to which you are referring resulted in the ANI page being flooded with the very same sort of ad'hom you and the OP have dumped into this page, just as you are doing now, and resulted in no action taken. This ANI here was filed by an OP who repeatedly resorted to WP:IDHT, refused to compromise on any points and has resorted to the basest form of battleground behavior I have ever seen. He is responsible for the disruption. In 2012 many of us debated points in Jefferson/talk and naturally there were heated moments, but we assigned a couple of editors to work on drafts and we got through it, which resulted in a page that remained stable for many months until you and the OP came along with no regard for the time spent and efforts made by other editors and with zero capacity for compromise. -- Gwillhickers 19:31, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, these most recent replies of yours to Binksternet and Joe bob attacks are typical of what, AFAIK, all or most (Virginia Historian is an exception) of the currently involved editors at the TJ article object to. Just because the article was stable doesn't mean most of us were happy with it. For my part, it meant it wasn't worth trying to discuss it with you. I find many of your attempts to discuss to be argumentative, bombastic, hyperbolic, repetitive, uncollegial. Ex.: Nice try, Bink. ... gross assumptions ... complete lack of compromise ... acute battleground behavior ... refused to compromise ... basest form of battleground behavior ... with no regard ... zero capacity for compromise. I do not agree with those accusations. You say we want to show that slaves in the U.S. were kept in irons, wore rags, fed slop and worked to an early death. In fact, we want to show that slaves in the U.S. were kept in involuntary bondage. We realize quality of food and clothing varied greatly from master to master, as did the amount of work exacted and the kindness or cruelty meted out. I believe your finger-pointing (He is responsible for the disruption.) is 180 degrees off. This is why I think you need mentoring, because you truly do not see how rude and disruptive your talk page behavior is. Your fixation on upholding a sterling image of TJ conflicts with the desire of other editors to be historically accurate. Best wishes, as always, Yopienso (talk) 20:30, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

All the things you strung together, out of context, happen to be true, and I can't think of anyone who is 100% happy with the compromise we struck in 2012, that's why it's called a compromise. Jefferson's sterling image? This is your impression. The page has a long history where because Jefferson owned slaves some editors assumed they had a blank check to say what they wanted and to make the given sections as bloated as they wished. Trying to keep that under control and adding a little historical perspective is not portraying Jefferson as "sterling". Careful. My comments to Bink. They have been wholly defensive and I didn't file this ANI, so I don't quite appreciate you trying to write it all off in the manner you have just now. While you make issue with battleground comments, in the same breath you use a phrase this: "argumentative, bombastic, hyperbolic, repetitive, uncollegial." To your credit you have shown the capacity to employ compromise but now you would do well to stop shooting yourself in the foot and begin making attempts at dispute resolution, as should the OP, who has yet to even acknowledge such an approach. Had the OP made such attempts in the first place much of this calamity would have been averted. You are now only prolonging matters. I have made several attempts at compromise. The OP has not. I respond to arguments. The OP overall has ignored them. I have not resorted to vile accusations, repeatedly. The OP has indeed done so. How you could overlook such a glaring distinction only serves to put your present remarks in a not so credible light. -- Gwillhickers 22:44, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support reasonable end to this ANI thread that was silly from beginning.--Staberinde (talk) 10:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

--- Before ANI, Editors with a dispute should go to dispute resolution. Gwhillickers has demonstrated that a scholarly debate currently exists as to the extent and specificity of DNA results: it is not WP:FRINGE. Complainants assert GW will not bend to the will of the majority reporting majority scholarship. But WP policy provides for minority scholarship to be reported in the narrative alongside the majority scholarship.

An administrator should be able to craft the language at a Dispute Resolution. I am not persuaded getting into the weeds of scholarly debates belongs in the article introduction, although Jefferson's domestic relations with Martha (wife) and widower Jefferson with Sally deserve note there. The DNA controversy merits discussion in the article body. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:40, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The dispute started with issues in the lede. I reluctantly went along with commentary in the lede for Hemings. It is the only topic given commentary. None of the other landmark issues relating to Jefferson (Louisiana Purchase, Declaration of Independence, etc) are given commentary. There was also debate about some of the language, whether it should read, opposed slavery all his life..., compared to politically opposed slavery..., compared to morally opposed.... This brought us to concerns about Jefferson's lack of action during his presidency in regards to slavery. I addressed this argument also, pointing out that during this time the country was involved with and was facing various wars and that the political division over the slavery issue was such that if Jefferson began pushing abolition at this time it would have very well brought on an early civil war -- while Britain was waiting in the wings to pick up the pieces. This is when the OP didn't reply, once again, abandoned the discussion and came running here crying wolf/"racism", the main theme in his opening statement, btw, as a way to get around such arguments. Anyone who reviews the Jefferson/talk discussion during the few days before this ANI was filed will see this. It would seem that any dispute resolution be aimed at these things. Calling opposing arguments "disruptive" or POV pushing, etc was only a tactic to divert from any further resolution. -- Gwillhickers 18:43, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Personal Attacks by HiLo48 against Collingwood26

HiLo48 has recently made several remarks against me on List of Prime Ministers of Australia in which he called me "f*cking stupid", "Lib-loving", "Abbott Fanboy" and "F*cking Moron". As you will see I did nothing to antagonize HiLo48 (I have mostly found him to be quite nice tbh). I edited something which he clearly told me he did not like so I asked him to discuss it with me at the talk page to resolve the issue where most of the attacks occurred. Nobody has seemed to have dealt with HiLo48 over this and I don't see why I don't deserve the same treatment as any other editor on here. Can someone please have a chat with HiLo48, thankyou.--Collingwood26 (talk) 02:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Guilty as charged re the naughty words. (And the apology for them.) For the sake of Wikipedia I reserve my right to treat with contempt repeated POV, incompetent and illogical edits from someone who can't even discuss a matter rationally. We must not let editing by incompetent, POV pushing trolls ruin this encyclopaedia. Had there not been such appalling contributions from this whinger, my response would not have happened. If anyone thinks sanctioning me is more important than doing something about an incompetent, irrational, POV pushing troublemaker, then smack my bum and send me home, and let the nominator go on his merry, destructive way. This MUST be a boomerang for this editor. Now, given my long-standing contempt for the processes allowed on this page (see my User page), I will say no more in this section. HiLo48 (talk) 03:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

HiLo, I understand what you are saying. God knows you say it often enough whenever anybody lodges a complaint. You feel that the best way to deal with those of differing opinions is to abuse and belittle them. Shock them into agreement, in other words. I disagree with you, simple as that. I'd like to see you acknowledge the hurt and disruption you cause, and to learn a different method of handling disagreement. One that complies with wikipolicy and good manners, for example. You're not stupid, and you do good work, but in this area, you have a way to go, I feel. --Pete (talk) 04:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

HiLo acts like this because he pretty much always gets away with it. No acknowledgement that he's aiming to hurt and harass other editors, no remorse. Differences of opinion can be handled politely, respectfully and effectively. But not by HiLo, who feels empowered to treat his fellow human beings with contempt. --Pete (talk) 03:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Awww :( I had written out a long paragraph and then when I went to save it came up as edit conflict ad I was unable to paste and lost my paragraph. Anyway gist of it is, I am upset that you think my edits are appalling. I never try to POV push and if it seems that way then you have my humble apologies. And to be completely honest with you HiLo48, no I don't vote Liberal. But there is really no need to criticize not only me (calling me "f*cking stupid and f*cking moron") but there is no need to call my edits "appalling" either as I generally make sure my edits are of high quality.--Collingwood26 (talk) 03:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

At worst HiLo48 can be accused of calling a spade a bloody shovel. However, Collingwood26's posts and edit summaries have been contradictory and illogical. Has HiLo48 come on a bit strong? Possibly. However, I share his frustration with editors that make nonsensical statements and then get all bent out of shape when called on it. There is no further point to this discussion, this is not something that needs admin attention. - Nick Thorne ^talk 04:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Dealing with differences is how Wikipedia became what it is today. I draw your attention to the fourth pillar in Wikipedia:Five pillars. Is it a pillar of our community or just a dog turd? --Pete (talk) 04:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. The edit summary I saw was extraordinary. WP:BITEY in spades (and shovels). I wish the two would kiss and make up so that a mentor/mentee relationship could develop. – S. Rich (talk) 05:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

My posts were contradictory? Please explain that one as I don't understand where your coming from there. So that's it, he is going to get off scot-free? I was banned for a month once because in frustration I told another editor to "f*ck off". I apologized to that editor, and was still banned for a month. Now this guy unprovoked calls me a "f*cking moron" and "f*cking stupid" and he gets no punishment whatsoever?? Am I the only one who sees a problem with this??--Collingwood26 (talk) 05:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I can't believe what I'm hearing here, he has refused to apologise to me and instead continued to harass me by saying things such as "appalling contributions" and yet you are all taking HiLo48's side??--Collingwood26 (talk) 05:40, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I am not taking HiLo's side. To the contrary, the edit summary I saw was extraordinary given HiLo's edit history and many Barnstars. But I will not get into the middle of this spat. Your contributions, particularly as to Aussie military history, are noted and worthwhile. So I'll urge you to step back from the ANI and continue to focus on building the encyclopedia. (Please note that many editors call these notice boards "drama pages". Getting into the thick of the drama usually isn't worthwhile.) Get back to your endeavor and you will be a happier editor. – S. Rich (talk) 05:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

But we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Everyone here has a right to edit without getting attacked like that - and we need a system to report these sort of attacks. So we need to make sure we don't blame Collingwood26 for reporting this. I don't think you are, but you're not exactly encouraging him to come back here. StAnselm (talk) 11:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• I've blocked HiLo48 for one month. I found HiLo's comment here to be a clear personal attack, and I also took into consideration that they continued making personal attacks on their talk page after being informed of this ANI thread. HiLo has been blocked for incivility before, so I do not think we can treat this as an isolated incident. The previous time HiLo was blocked for incivility there was a consensus at ANI that the block should be for one week, which is why I chose the relatively long block length this time around. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 07:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't want HiLo48 to be blocked, people on here hate me enough as it is, I don't want to give them another reason to hate me.--Collingwood26 (talk) 09:19, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

You don't want him blocked ... but you came here to a location where the typical ending is a block for either the reporter or reportee? ES&L 09:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I think that's unfair. I think we can assume that Collingwood26's desired outcome is that HiLo refrains from personal attacks. And the discussion alone won't do it, because (it would seem), there is somewhat of a tolerance for personal attacks, and the victim gets blamed. StAnselm (talk) 11:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, some wise people decised that WP:WQA was not required. If they wanted discussion then that would have been the place. Anyway, don't get me wrong: I always say that "someone else's incivility may explain yours, but it never excuses it" ES&L 11:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I know but there's no point blocking him for it, I only came here because I was angry at what he was saying about me and no other editor was helping me so I thought if I posted it here someone could help. I don't see a point in blocking him because as far as I'm concerned HiLo48 is a terrific editor, I would be happy if he says to me he won't do it again.--Collingwood26 (talk) 09:27, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I would likewise be happy with such an outcome, so long as it is founded upon acceptance and a genuine desire to work productively with other editors, especially those with differing opinions, skills or experience. --Pete (talk) 10:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Collingwood - please learn to indent properly. Pete: I'm currently trying to find evidence that HiLo ever formally requested to you that you stay off his talkpage as he claims. If he did, I'll be requesting further investigation/action under WP:HARASS - as a minimum, your posts on HiLo's talkpage recently merely inflamed a situation that was already bad enough. ES&L 10:53, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Note: Pete was very clearly advised to stay off of HiLo's talkpage here following the close of another ANI event. That type of poking and harassment is unwelcome, disallowed and was clear escalation of things ES&L 11:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Noted, but I did not take that to mean in perpetuity. And reviewing my two contributions there, I find it hard to see how a reasonable person could view them as other than positive. --Pete (talk) 15:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Of course it meant "in perpetuity"...what else does "go away for good" usually mean? When you're referred to by HiLo as a "stalker", and boom you show up...that's classic wikistalking and harassment. Unwatch his page. Don't ever go back there ... again, you have needlessly ratcheted up this situation ... the two of you shouldn't even be working in the same sections of the 'pedia from what I see ES&L 18:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

A reasonable person would realize that ANY contribution by YOU to HiLo's talkpage would not be positive. 205.166.218.65 (talk) 18:15, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Comment – Hasn't this been resolved? What is the point of these continuing remarks about talk page bans, indents, edit histories (or should I say "histrionics")? – S. Rich (talk) 18:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• With respect S. Rich, I don't think this is quite resolved yet. I fully agree with the block for HiLo48, not least because of his self-imposed non-swearing vow and my own promise to block him if ever he broke it. But that is only half the story and I think it's reasonable to consider whether Skyring was disruptive in posting on HiLo48's talk page following my own unequivocal request not to do so (with no indication that the request had any sort of time limit.) A second question (raised by HiLo48 on his talk page) is the one of whether civilly expressed incompetence is more disruptive than competent incivility - HiLo avers that it is. I presume he's referring to discussions here where Collingwood26 gets Iraq and Afghanistan mixed up and fails to win any support for his/her chosen wording.

My own view is that Skyring's posting on HiLo's talk page merits a final warning, which I'll be happy to give. I don't think in the absence of a warning that it merits a block this time round. On Collingwood26, I can understand why HiLo was getting frustrated with the discussion at List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Australia but on its own that's nowhere near enough to label Collingwood26 as disruptive. However there are discussions from September 2012 and March this year that suggest this may be a more substantial and widespread problem. It's odd that an editor with a couple of years experience and claiming several article starts still has trouble remembering to sign talk page posts and is seemingly incapable of mastering indents. I'm not myself arguing for a competence block but is there any other way of improving the situation and helping Collingwood26 shape up? Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 21:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I've asked Pete in no uncertain terms never to post on HiLo's talk page again. I have laid it on a bit thick but my earlier, more polite version obviously got overlooked. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 22:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

is there any other way of improving the situation and helping Collingwood26 shape up? Not by swearing at and abusing him, for sure. I'll accept your warning, Kim, and voluntarily withdraw from Wikipedia editing for the duration of HiLo's block. Clearly HiLo - and others - are blaming me for stirring him up, and fair enough, my role was not disinterested - I'd like him to face up to the fact that it is not OK to abuse other editors when there is a difference of opinion, and I could see yet another complaint from a target being shrugged aside. This behaviour has gone on for years with no sign of remorse or admission of any error beyond swearing.

Looking at HiLo's post here, it seemed to me that a response was invited. Not to stir him up but to correct two errors. I don't hate anybody, nor do I want to see a heated or hasty response. I would very much have preferred to have a civil and reasoned reply. If that had been forthcoming, we wouldn't be discussing this now.

Nothing in this world lasts forever, and a year, ten years can make a world of difference. Living in the past is a particularly arid and pointless existence IMHO. We cannot change what has gone before, but we can always change our present selves as we learn and mature. Thank you for your contributions, and I'll take myself off for some reflection. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 22:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

To be fair, I think Pete has a point here. Whether or not a response was invited or there were errors, I've long believed if you ban someone from your talk page, you should avoid talking about them on your talk page unless absolutely necessary since despite the wide latitude we give to people to manage their talk page, it's not fair someone can't respond (for the same reason we have to take care when talking about blocked or banned editors). However perhaps a better way to handle it would be to make an explicit request, e.g. 'I believe your comments are unfair/in error but will not be responding because of your request not to post on your talk page but as long as your request stands, can you refrain from talking about me on your talk page?' rather than simply responding.

In any case, a warning is a warning so it doesn't seem that concerning justified or not. The fact that Pete was under the mistaken impression that the request was time limited suggests it's useful reminder in any case and maybe they will now know not to post ever except perhaps for essential notifications; or if they really think things have improved, to query whether the ban can be removed. (Clearly Hilo's comment suggest this is unlikely to be the case.)

Nil Einne (talk) 03:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Nil Einne, we recently had an ANI discussion about a user who was "banned" from an admins talkpage, but kept screwing around with a discussion about them on that admins talkpage - and yet another one who believed he had a right to be advised that there was a discussion about them on someones talkpage, and was pretty pissed about finding the conversation. Although maybe not 100% ethical to have that conversation about another editor without inviting them or allowing their input, I would bet it happens hundreds of times a day. ES&L 17:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I think this is how you indent? Sorry I only know the basics of Wikipedia editing, and yes I created all those pages. I'll leave it up to you Kim if you think a temporary block on HiLo48 is reasonable. I would have been contempt with him telling me it won't happen again. As for those other incidents involving me, one was entirely my fault of which I took the blame. The other latest incident was a misunderstanding between myself and Nick-D which went into an argument.--Collingwood26 (talk) 23:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think a block of HiLo48 is merited here, and as Kim knows I have urged sanctions in the past. I've had a fairly long history of interaction with this dude and over the years have come to see him as an unusual case with a short fuse, but a net positive by far. In this case he got salty and he has offered an apology above, though it is pretty minimal. The secondary issue of the post on his talk page has been dealt with. HiLo, I do offer this friendly advice regarding that fourth pillar... before swearing in print, try walking away from the computer for a bit. I should know, I have been doing it for years. Best Wishes, and Trick or Treat, all. Jusdafax 07:52, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
• I can only mirror the sentiments of Jusdafax here. This is like going after a police officer for using excessive force while ignoring the bank robbery he was trying to stop. Want to refer him to Internal Affairs? Fine. But don't ignore the original crime. The other editor here has a history of problematic editing and only just avoided a block during his most recent trip to ANI (in March) by promising to "behave", which he clearly hasn't. HiLo is clearly being punished for using coarse language (which for an Australian is actually not that coarse) while Collingwood26 skates on behaviour that really should be prevented (the actual purpose of blocks around here). Stalwart111 09:11, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
• I agree. But just so its crystal clear, I made the most recent report regarding Collingwood26's editing, here to ANI, three weeks ago.[56]Nickm57 (talk) 09:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

My apologies - I'd missed that one. So, yeah, the one I was referencing was not his most recent. Stalwart111 10:16, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• I tried to offer a way out, toward an unblock, but I don't get much more than "they're totally incompetent and wrong" (without any diffs or useful pointers for me to start looking into it) and "you admins and your boards just enable the POV pushers and stalkers". That's not how to go about a. getting unblocked yourself and b. getting the other party or parties properly investigated. Instead of a "fucking moron" a list of diffs and a paragraph's worth of assessment would have been helpful, and then all of this could have been prevented. Now that I read the last ANI thread concerning Collingwood, yeah, I can see that there might be a problem, but I'm not a PI who can tease out every problem from a long list of edits over many pages. I offered HiLo two options, and he chose the self-fulfilling prophecy: not helping the admin means the admin can't really help you very well, and your opinion about admins will remain what it is. Drmies (talk) 17:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Just to make this clear: I offered to consider an unblock request, but even that garnered no more than a "meh". I will still consider such a request, and I gather I'm not the only one. On the other side, the conversation on Collingwood's talk page started by Stradivarius is plenty problematic, oddly in the same way as his opponent's: I'm being singled out, persecuted, nobody likes me. It's that passive-aggressiveness that I find so difficult to work with; at least HiLo doesn't exhibit doesn't really have the passive part, to his credit. In addition, Collingwood can't see where they were wrong in terms of content, and that's not a good thing either. So yeah, this could all have gone down very differently. Drmies (talk) 17:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• And should all have gone down very differently. A month-long block was handed out 5 hours after this thread was opened by an obviously problematic editor with a talk page full of edit warring warnings. Even the most basic overview (nobody expects PI-like investigation) would seem to suggest that while a block for HiLo might be warranted, a block for Collingwood26 would actually have prevented more disruption (his unrepentant POV editing being what prompted the coarse language anyway). The blocking admin clearly looked at previous ANI threads that pertained to HiLo's behaviour (he said so here) so why not the several more relating to Collingwood26's behaviour? HiLo's response to the block is exactly what I would expect from anyone under the circumstances. Why fight to be unblocked if the circumstances in which the block was handed out provide little confidence that a decision will be made in a reasonable manner? (And I suspect HiLo appreciates that a short "excessive force" block would be warranted either way, so why fight for a reduction when you can just take a holiday, let problematic editors edit and be proven right in the long run?) Stalwart111 22:28, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• There are some who say that if someone wants to block an established editor for something like a breach of decorum, they should get a consensus before blocking. Jus' saying. As for the rest of your comments, sure, but much of that is addressed on HiLo's talk page already and the ball is in his court, and has been for quite some time. Drmies (talk) 00:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Absolutely, and (to be clear) I'm not advocating the HiLo be unblocked so that Collingwood can be blocked in his place. Only that HiLo's month-long civility block be reconsidered (in its context) and serious consideration be given to blocking Collingwood to prevent obvious disruption by way of POV-pushing OR. Stalwart111 01:06, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• @Stalwart111: my block of HiLo48 wasn't intended to preclude investigation or possible sanctions of the other parties, and the block length isn't set in stone. If we find a consensus here to change the block length, then I'll be happy to do it myself. Also, if you want to have a go at gathering some evidence to support your proposed block of Collingwood26, that would be most welcome. So far, what we have to go on are the ANI threads here and here, as well as the things brought up in the current thread. Diffs and links, especially those compiled by a neutral third party such as yourself, would be most helpful for making the participants here make sense of things. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 06:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• No, I didn't think it was and I'm not trying to be critical of your block (especially given you seem willing to discuss length), more that the net result is that a productive editor with unproductive language is blocked while an unproductive editor remains free to disrupt the project. The two ANI threads you highlight are relevant but there was a third (which I can't seem to find in the archives, but it is mentioned above) only two weeks ago. In the intervening two weeks he hardly edited then a few days ago he popped up at List of Prime Ministers of Australia and quickly got to 4RR trying to include bizarre, political, POV, original research while at the same time arguing with a group of editors on the talk page, most of whom told him he was completely wrong. His MO (I've seen it three times so far) is to edit war OR into article all the while suggesting, "if you don't agree with it then take it to the talk page" which is a total distortion of WP:BRD. In March it was unambiguous copyright infringement which he responded to by suggesting other editors were "racist" because they dared call him on it (after which I left my own note on his talk page to which he didn't respond). Then there's his "current events" edits in August where he reverted the removal of his patently false original research not supported by references. How many times does someone get to edit-war original research into articles before we work out that someone isn't here to improve Wikipedia? Stalwart111 08:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I did some history-diving and found the ANI archive here. I saw the interaction at List of Prime Ministers of Australia, and I thought that a block might have been warranted had Collingwood26 gone over 3RR. However, I only count three reverts (one insertion here and then reverts here, here and here), so I didn't think that alone was block-worthy. Thanks to your links I do see a pattern of POV editing emerging, though, and I think a topic ban from Australia-related topics may be in order. Give me a little while and I will propose one below. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 05:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I have to take that last part back, as something has come up in real life and I'm not going to have the time to put a proposal together today. (I will also admit to being put in two minds about this by St. Anselm's comment here, which I think is an important point.) If someone else wants to suggest something in the meantime, though, then please go ahead. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 06:26, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I'm back. Before I start a topic ban discussion, though, it occurs to me that I should get some input on what exactly the ban should be on. From the links above I have seen problematic edits in the areas of Australian politics, Australian military history, and race. I'm thinking of a topic ban from "all Australia topics, broadly construed". I'm also considering adding language about "race topics, broadly construed", but I worry that it may be too broad. What do others think? — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 09:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, he basically only contributes to articles relating to Australia so a ban like that would basically be a block. But he has inserted himself into a range of Australian topics in a disruptive manner so it will be hard to separate his constructive edits from his non-constructive ones for the purposes of defining a topic area for a ban. But the continual promises to "behave" only to quickly return to problematic editing reeks of WP:NOTHERE and WP:IDHT. Stalwart111 07:04, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Limited editing time precludes diffs, but I appreciate the willingness to look for consensus. Suggest an Unblock with time served being sufficient. Remember, I have in the past urged harsh sanctions, and Kim accused me of "grave dancing" on the occasion of HiLo's first block. At this point in November 2013 the situation is exactly reversed. Glad to see others agree with me. Let the punishment fit the "crime." Jusdafax 08:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not seeing anything on HiLo's talk page that suggests acceptance or remorse for the personal attacks on other editors. Including myself. A pattern of abuse, continued for years in the past and presumably into the future. When asked to provide diffs for the behaviour he finds so offensive, nothing emerges. This sort of behaviour is reasonably common here. A personality that cannot admit error and consequently all fault lies vaguely elsewhere. We have ways of dealing with incompetent and tendentious editors and I know of know wikipolicy that condones coarse personal attacks on such problem editors, though I see a number of attempts to excuse this in HiLo's case, usually focussing on the bad language and ignoring the personal attacks. We none of us are perfect, but we generally manage to get along and produce our encyclopaedia without biting each other's heads off. If we condone personal attacks, it makes a mockery of our fourth pillar and it dissuades editors from joining or remaining in our project when it gets too poisonous. As per my comments above, I don't think a block is the answer, but neither is turning a blind eye. I'd say unblock him and let him respond here, but he seems to have ruled that out with his one and only post in this discussion. --Pete (talk) 10:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Comment I have seen Mr Stradivarius at work and have immense immense immense respect for them. I have this whimsical vision of this not-so-whimsical situation. And that is that you take someone who is probably one of the most civilized, kindest people that I've ever seen in Wikipedia (Mr Stradivarius) and have them walk into a bar where the norm is that if somebody calls you two swear words instead of three it is considered a compliment, how would it look to them?  :-) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:35, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, an interesting question. My first thought, of course, is that Wikipedia isn't a bar, and that we probably shouldn't use behaviour in bars as a metric for how to judge civility. But on the more abstract level, I do see what you mean. I'm well aware that what one person can see as incivility another person can see as harmless, and living in Japan, as an ex-pat, I see this all the time. My situation brings me into regular contact with people from different cultures (which, yes, has included a fair few Australians), and I have seen this kind of culture gap first-hand.

I don't want this discussion to get too philosophical - that can be saved for policy RfCs, etc. - but my view is that this culture gap means we should actually make an extra effort to ensure that discussions are at an acceptable level of civility for all the participants, not just some of them. If some participants think that the discussion is less than civil, then they will be put off from contributing, which we want to avoid. An important caveat to this is that we should also overlook things that might have seemed uncivil to some participants, but where incivility was not intended. We are a diverse enough community that it is inevitable that some people will step on other people's toes without meaning to.

I don't think this caveat applies in the current case, however, as I could not see how HiLo48's comments could have been accidentally uncivil. This was a value judgement, of course, and as with all value judgements others may disagree. I'll be quite happy to remove the block or change its length if it turns out that the consensus is for something different than what I chose. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 04:50, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I think that the main points are that the criticisms of HiLo48 are accurate (and to that I would add mis-reading folks and situations and inability to absorb input/information) but that they are not as bad as them seem due to:

• If you understand HiLo48 they are a rough person and not a vicious person, and are not really meaning or doing harm to anybody. Plus the cultural translation that I described.
• An observation of flaws in the wiki system is that the most vicious people, the ones that are doing harm to other people or seeking to do harm to other people do it with immunity because they know how to use the system and hide their intentions. And the rules dictate that the ones that are much more benign, who are just rough and abrasive get smacked and the really vicious harmful people don't.

North8000 (talk) 21:04, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you North. I'd been trying to word a contribution to this discussion that said exactly that. Your well chosen words are an exact summation of what I wanted to say. I don't believe HiLo means any harm at all. In fact I believe the exact opposite. Your point is eloquent, apposite, and well-made - the tendentious and disruptive, and those who seek to harm our neutrality or our community, or use it for their own agenda, tend to learn the rules very well indeed in order to skirt around them, and often the well-meaning become so frustrated with this that their own behaviour can suffer in an attempt to defend what is proper. Been there, done that, and I suspect most of us have, or at least have almost... No, we shouldn't descend to their level - but gee, it's hard sometimes. Thanks again... Begoon ^talk 15:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• I would suggest that the block should at least be reduced in length (perhaps to a week, if Jusdafax's time served proposal does not have sufficient support). Hilo and I are both regulars at In The News, so I've seen plenty of him since he returned from his topic ban early this year. There haven't been any significant issues - he's still blunt and disagrees strongly with others sometimes, but there haven't been the personal attacks that used to be a problem. I got the impression that he'd been making a real effort. Given the history I understand Mr. Stradivarius's reasons for such a long block, but it seems a pity that an explosion in response to what appears to be a classic case of civil POV-pushing should undermine the good progress he was making. Neljack (talk) 05:20, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Neljack's point is well-taken. As another ITN regular, I have seen HiLo make significant progress on his interactions at the feature this year and has also been a contributor that assists other editors. Yes, I hasten to add, he can be blunt, quite blunt indeed, but I count my friendly relations with HiLo among the best I have on the 'pedia... quite spectacular, really, given the mutual hostility a few years back. I think Mr. Strad's block is well-meaning but he lacks the long-term perspective that Neljack and I have. Is our heartfelt testimony here not sufficient? A month is too darn long. And this has turned punitive, not preventative, in my view. Jusdafax 08:23, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Accusations against Collingwood26

• I thought the action against HiLo48 re Collingwood26 was over and done but I see HiLo is now calling Collingwood a white supremacist (both in content and edit summary.) I've asked HiLo to provide a diff or withdraw this, after counting to ten and avoiding my first instinct to withdraw HiLo's talk page access. I didn't do so because I feel personally involved and can't trust my judgement - a while ago I stuck my neck out for HiLo in an RfC and I now feel, frankly, betrayed by him. But if someone with a more dispassionate perspective would care to consider this I'd be grateful. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 20:13, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

HiLo has now provided evidence, and I have to say his comment seems well-justified. Have a look at these diffs.[57][58] Neljack (talk) 23:06, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

And then there's stuff like this, strange conspiracy theory stuff like this. Then there's bizarre historical revisionism like Manning River Skull (taking speculation from a single source and claiming it as fact) and claims like this and this which were immediately reverted as unsourced OR. We could likely go on. Stalwart111 03:35, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The diffs and linked previous discussions above certainly seem to indicate that what Neljack and Stalwart point out is a serious concern. Yes, accusations of this nature are dangerous without evidence, but it seems in this case the evidence does exist, and maybe has not been acted upon previously. Begoon ^talk 15:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to those above who have taken the time to flesh out HiLo's 'white supremacist' assertion. Your research is very convincing and I agree that at the very least a topic ban for Collingwood26 from Australian and race-related articles is appropriate. It would have been good had HiLo produced this evidence along with the assertion but I know that's not his style. Nevertheless I'm glad I resisted my first impulse. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 20:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support site ban for Collingwood26; diffs provided above show racist attacks on entire groups of peoples [59] black, [60] Jewish, [61] Asian australian. NE Ent 00:48, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support as per the Ent ... this is why WP:BOOMERANGS are so dangerous ... ironic, considering we're discussing problems on Aussie topics. Combine this remedy with the condition-based unblock below - and the IB below that - some degree of normalcy may appear ES&L 01:18, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support site ban for Collingwood26 - in case that wasn't clear from my comment above. Begoon ^talk 03:07, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support site ban - I really don't think we have a choice. We're not talking about a legitimate, scientific difference of opinion on race, culture and history - it's good old fashion racism. Stalwart111 05:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• Comment Looking at those diffs, they are nonsense and indicate an attitude few of us would support, but is racism or any other unsavoury or fringe opinion really something we ban editors for? In my experience these edits don't last because they are opposed by editors holding more realistic views. WP:WEIGHT and WP:RS make fringe views unsustainable. Just how far do we push Wikipedia as an enclave of political correctness, where everyone may edit so long as they share the same views? --Pete (talk) 06:23, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

No, we block editors for racism. We ban editors for recidivism. Stalwart111 07:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I see two blocks for personal attacks. What about warnings for (say) pushing a POV beyond consensus? Any information there? --Pete (talk) 07:23, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

If the many talk page warnings and multiple ANI threads (based on POV pushing, regardless of what the blocks ended up being for) aren't enough for you to support a ban, feel free not to support a ban. Stalwart111 08:30, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Are there any diffs? I don't edit the same pages as Collingwood26. --Pete (talk) 09:11, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not a white supremacist, and I have already been blocked for those edits.--Collingwood26 (talk) 23:48, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

We're not talking about another block, we're talking about a site ban. Stalwart111 07:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Way forward for HiLo

• Way forward At this point, I would be willing to offer HiLo a simple unblock condition, mostly centred on what would normally be considered in the old days as "civility parole". I recommend this:

"Although swearing is permitted on Wikipedia, that which is used as a direct or indirect personal attack is not. Any edit that breaches WP:NPA, whether including swearing or not, will result in escalating blocks, beginning with 1 month. Any admin implementing the block has wide lattitude in determining whether the edit appears to be a personal attack or not. Although civility is not optional, this specific restriction is in effect for 6 months. This restriction will be listed at WP:RESTRICT"

Feel free to modify, and once it's acceptable to the community, propose it to HiLo and unblock immediately once accepted. ES&L 15:24, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Seems eminently fair and reasonable to me, and presents a way forward that benefits the community and the editor, in that it sets clear conditions which they may easily adhere to, and which may be straightforwardly "enforced". I'd support that without alteration. Begoon ^talk 15:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support an uninvolved admin offering to unblock HiLo with those conditions attached. Stalwart111 06:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• I support this in principle, but given HiLo's comment here, I doubt it will be effective in practice. Specifically, I mean the parts where HiLo says "what you insist is unacceptable (the swearing) is actually, again, making this a better place", and "yet again, my view on what works here has been vindicated". If HiLo is of the attitude that incivility is an acceptable way to solve problems on Wikipedia, then this proposal will just be delaying the inevitable and we may as well keep the current block in place. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 09:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: Interaction ban between HiLo48 and Skyring (Pete)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Note: This discussion was originally started inline, but I have split it into its own subsection for readability. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 03:56, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Propose interaction ban between HiLo48 and Skyring (Pete). This has become fricking ridiculous. Pete, you need to stop talking to and/or about HiLo anywhere on this project. Your comments througout this thread - and of course the dumb idea of posting on HiLo's talkpage - have merely poured oodles of gasoline on the situation, where the main goal is to prevent fires. As you seem to fail to recognize this, and indeed show so damned little "remorse" yourself, then it's time to formalize this with an WP:IB. Your hypocricy is sickening ES&L 11:20, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Be fair. Shouldn't that cut both ways? Am I not allowed to respond to some of the bile being poured in my direction? --Pete (talk) 14:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support Don't poke bears, it never ends well. Wee Curry Monster talk 11:27, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you! Sound advice from the voice of experience. --Pete (talk) 14:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Of course it was HiLo's "one and only post here"; he was blocked within hours of the thread being opened. Despite that (and with the agreement of the blocking admin to gauge consensus here with regard to length) I don't think anybody has suggested that the block shouldn't have been applied. Nobody is "turning a blind eye", except when it comes to Collingwood26. Your attempt (Pete) to try and focus this thread on an already blocked user and claim no diffs have been presented with regard to Collingwood26 (when HiLo couldn't and I already had in the comment immediately above yours) borders on disruptive. Stalwart111 11:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• It was his one and only post, not because he was blocked just three hours and eight minutes later and he didn't have time to craft his usual careful response, but because he chose not to participate further. He said so in the diff I provided. Which you appear not to have read.
• Several participants in this discussion have suggested a block was inappropriate. Including myself.
• My comment above was aimed at responding to the post from Mr. Stradivarius about consensus. I think that consensus-forming activity requires that all participants in a discussion have the opportunity to contribute.
• I didn't say anything about Collingwood26, let alone claim no diffs had been presented. My comments were more general. This is the usual practice. A tirade against other editors without presenting any specific diffs. Which makes the job of admins difficult if no evidence is ever actually presented.

Wouldn't it be nice if we all stepped back, read the whole discussion, actually read what others wrote, took our time, and responded thoughtfully and accurately? Jumping in, all guns blazing, unaware of the facts, is not generally regarded as a model for calm and reasoned discourse. --Pete (talk) 14:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

"When asked to provide diffs for the behaviour he finds so offensive, nothing emerges" - knowing full well he was/is prevented from doing so here and only lines after I had done so. He is effectively prevented from interacting with anyone right now, and yet somehow your "relationship" continues to be disruptive. What does that tell you about your contributions? Stalwart111 22:19, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

My comments, as noted, were more general than the present instance. The pattern of behaviour has persisted for years, rather than a couple of hours. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 10:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

As has yours, it would seem, and there are now eight people (and counting) telling you as much. Probably time to drop that stick. Leave all this well alone, go and find something more productive to do (which we both know you are capable of doing) and allow participants here to move on to a discussion about how best to deal with Collingwood. Stalwart111 07:04, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

You may care to check exactly who those eight people are. You may get a surprise. Funny, isn't it, how nobody is able to provide any diffs of disruptive or offensive behaviour on my part? You talk of my pattern of behaviour, but you haven't checked to see, have you? Nor has anybody else. Not that I'm harping on about it, of course. :) --Pete (talk) 08:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• SupportStrong Support per Q.E.D. right here. Begoon ^talk 15:09, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Non-sequitur, I think you mean. Look, right up the top of this page, see where it says, Please include diffs to help us find the problem you are reporting. What do you think that means? We just make stuff up? Or we use the power of the wiki to present, you know, actual facts? --Pete (talk) 18:50, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying the situation. I amended my !vote in the light of your reply. Cheers. Begoon ^talk 05:32, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

And thank you for your response. What I'm hoping for by continuing a dialogue is to discover whether I'm talking to someone who has put some thought into their !vote, or whether they have just made a superficial response - whatever passes over the the surface of their discursive mind - without truly understanding the situation. I'm looking for thought and thoughtfulness here, rather than a quick emotional rumble. --Pete (talk) 20:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support - so long as it applies to both parties equally and fairly. --Pete (talk) 15:48, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Snarky responses to everyone who is !voting? Just making it worse...and of course it was applying to both parties. Ridiculous to suggest otherwise. ES&L 20:22, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you see my contributions as "snarky" - certainly not my intention to be offensive. My comments are aimed at eliciting facts and diffs, rather than more emotional responses. If I have said anything a reasonable person might regard as offensive, for instance, then that would certainly be something to bring forward here. I've already mentioned the lack of diffs. For example, if I should ask for a review of any outcome, I'm sure that we'd be looking for useful evidence rather than general comments. Of course, editors are entitled to be as vague as they like in their !votes, it's a personal choice, but good satisfactory wikiprocess would be more factual and less emotional, surely? --Pete (talk) 10:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Originally I thought that the final warning that Kim Dent-Brown left on Pete's talk page might be sufficient, but Pete's subsequent posts here have led me to believe that this is necessary. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 04:15, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Again, given the torrent of unsubstantiated abuse aimed at me - on a continuing basis, I note - I ask what would a reasonable person do? Make a polite request for details, as per the directions at the top of this very page, perhaps? --Pete (talk) 10:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support as a very minimal sanction for behaviour that is essentially blockable. Pete, you've been clearly and categorically told to stay of Hilo's talk page; and you've failed to do so. You've been incredibly snarky in this thread, and generally disruptive in other areas, by jumping on any perceived misdemeanour by HiLo. Enough is enough, and trying to Wikilawyer your way out of this with statements like "Nothing in this world lasts forever" and "Noted, but I did not take that to mean in perpetuity" is also disgraceful. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:55, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

"behaviour that is essentially blockable". You astonish me. Care to give an example? A diff, so that I may understand and mend my ways? Yes, I posted on the talk page of HWMNBN some days ago. It was not my understanding that admins issued dooms in perpetuity, I was responding to comments aimed directly at me, but in any case, Kim Dent-Brown has issued a stern warning, I've acknowledged it (and by your above quoting from my acknowledgement, I see that you have read and apparently understood this), I've observed it and that would seem to be an end of it. If I'm told to stay off YKW's talk page and I do precisely that, a reasonable person would take that as acceptable behaviour. But you state that it is blockable, and my attempts to find out why are seen as snarky. Well, goodness me! Excuse my bewilderment. --Pete (talk) 15:31, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support I have seen Pete turn up at various threads about Hilo, and his presence has invariably been unhelpful and disruptive - as is his presence on his Hilo's talk page, which he apparently will not voluntarily avoid despite being asked to. Neljack (talk) 05:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

This space reserved for Skyring's next badgering of !voters, which is merely turning the screw tighter ES&L 09:50, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. Pete, in your own interest, shut the heck up. There is no way posting anything further is going to do anything other than damage your interests. You are making HiLo's point for him (as he has done for other people in his turn). Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 20:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Lobsterthermidor

I'm very much anti-drama and try hard to be a self-sufficient admin, but I've finally run out of steam in my interactions with Lobsterthermidor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Would someone have a look before I do something I'll later regret, please?

The problem involves his ownership of articles, original research, incivility, bullying etc. My attempts to explain these problems to him over the last year or so have resulted in him claiming that I'm obsessively stalking him. My belief, based on extensive examination of his edits, is that despite the superficial appearance of reliability exhibited by his work it is riddled with errors which he fails to acknowledge. This, coupled with his bullying behaviour means that he has crossed the line into disruptive editing, is not an asset to the project, and should be persuaded to leave permanently (he's already "retired" twice). I believed for a long time that he had the potential to be a valuable member of the team, which is why I've been so patient with him. But he's stopped listening to me so I've taken it as far as I can on my own.

Our latest exchange on his talk page is relevant as are many earlier messages on that page and my previous AN/I report. I'll happily provide any further information required if anyone is willing to help. Thanks in anticipation. —SMALLJIM  15:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

This user has been engaging in edit-warring with me for at least 2 years. He attacks on many and varied fronts, OR is just one of his weapons in his continuing war. He is an interested editor in the sphere of Devon articles, in which sphere the warring generally takes place. His modus operandi is generally to spark pedantic debates about immaterial statements where I have "said it my own way" as required by WP, rather than parrotted the author's every word. Thus he argues ad infinitum about which parish a manor is in, even though I give him a totally unambiguous source, and calls my common sense reading of the source "OR". He has become increasingly obsessive about waging this edit-war (if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a Special:Duck), and broke his 2 month wiki-break specifically to rewrite, or attempt to rewrite 3 of my brand new articles submitted. That occupied almost all his time for 2 days, and counting. I feel like the victim of an obsessive. These total rewrites, in the middle of an edit-war were actions of further and continued edit warring, and amounted to effective reversion of my text, without any discussion beforehand on talk. That was bound to be inflammatory, and as an admin he should know that and be above it. He then tried to slap an official warning on me (mixing his role of admin with interseted editor) when I reverted his work for the reason of drastic editing with no discussion on talk. See Dunsland. He continues to give me his master-class of how to write for WP, which even involves him chasing me onto the talk page of persons in totally unrelated areas and suggesting I use more paragraphs in my talk page submissions.

He popped up when one of my new articles, nothing to do with Devon, was nominated for deletion due to copyright infringement, see List of licences to crenellate and fought tooth and nail to suppress it. That seems to me to be evidence of playing the man not the ball. He used every argument in the book, but lost. He clearly is in the long-term habit of following my contributions log and, it feels to me, of extirpating all trace of me and my contributions from WP. He has recently taken arbitrarily to deleting images contributed by me, even though well-sourced (see Thomas de Berkeley, 5th Baron Berkeley just because of my involvement. That was vandalism, it cannot be described as anything else. I have recently made positive suggestions to him as to how to end the edit-war, I don't know whether he will take the chance or persist in his actions. My talk page history, going back two years or more, provides evidence of the overwhelming mumber of critical messages I get from this editor. I should add I have never knowingly edited a single one of his own contributed articles, the traffic is all one way. A very fresh example of his modus operandi in Dunsland: Source Lauder wrote that the estate had been occupied continuously by the same family since 1066 to 1947 (paraphrase). I wrote in the article: "It is remarkable for having been occupied by the same family since 1066 to 1947". He accused me of breaking WP rules by not parroting the source. this is the sort of argument I am continually dragged into. If Lauder remarks on the fact in her article, it's remarkable. It's very tiresome. There are thousand of articles on WP with no sources at all. Mine generally have several dozen. But it's never enough for this person obsessed with "teaching me a lesson" and being "right", "better", "more in touch with the sources", and just generally a superior human being to myself. I ask him to step back and end the edit-warring now.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 17:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)) Hot off the press: a classic example of his edit-warring modus operandi, see Talk:John Arscott (1613-1675) 29 Oct. You can still sniff in the air the gunpowder of his last salvo. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 18:16, 31 October 2013 (UTC))

Anyone looking at this? I'll happily justify/correct any of those self-selected minor issues if anyone considers it would be helpful. The main points that are damaging Wikipedia remain un-addressed. —SMALLJIM  20:39, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not an admin, sorry, and I don't know either of you, but I saw your appeal at the beginning and have taken a look. A few things seem rather obvious to me:

@Smalljim: it seems perfectly clear from your recent contributions that you are following LT around. I'm not accusing you of hounding, because WP:HOUND says "with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor", and I don't think you have that aim. But you are having that effect, and it's rather easy to see why when you post things like this, which really reads as quite personally hostile, after unilaterally splitting off that content with zero discussion. You don't have the right to appoint yourself as someone's mentor against their will. Other editors exist, and you don't have to manage him single-handedly. And bringing this frustrated but good-faith editor to ANI after that isn't good.

@Lobsterthermidor: now that the above has been said, I think you need to cool it too, and to learn what can be learned from the edits that have frustrated you. Talk page section headers like "Reverted vexatious excessively pedantic revert" really raise the temperature. Above, you have accused SJ of vandalism -- I don't agree with the removal of those images without discussion either, but that comment is too confrontational. Some of the edits that SJ has made to your work are very good, and you could benefit from them. Please take more care over fact checking (between Woodbury and Newton Abbot there is Exeter), and if you're ever accused of OR, the right refutation is to add citations.

Good luck, both of you. --Stfg (talk) 14:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Stfg, much appreciated. Just a few points from my side: Yes, I've been watching Lt's contributions for some time. I feel a responsibility to do so because no-one else is correcting his errors, which is understandable considering the extremely specialised topics. The message at Talk:Manor of Bratton Fleming is one of a series of similar ones that I started posting after Lt had retired (see User:Smalljim/Pages I have tagged with OR). However, we'd already agreed that the split of extensive Manor details from articles about villages was acceptable (see here) – this was one I'd missed earlier. I must point out too that Lt didn't add 'Newton Abbot' to that article,[62] it had been there for ages.

It would be great if some other editors looked at the content that Lt has added, but I'm pretty sure no-one does, not in the depth needed to check the content. And I've found so many errors in the small amount of his work that I've checked, that despite knowing that he's working in good faith, we cannot accept, without checking, what he adds. That's too big a burden for WP to support, so, I (reluctantly) believe that he needs to be persuaded to publish his research elsewhere.  —SMALLJIM  15:18, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh and regarding my removal of images from Thomas de Berkeley, 5th Baron Berkeley, here (back in July, not "recently" as Lt claims), if you look at the footnote to the top image, Lt corrected the source he used (now found online here) which said he was the 4th Lord Berkeley. Well, despite this coming from a check of Monumental brasses of Gloucestershire where another cited source also says 4th and gives his date of death as 1392, I must admit that was not one of my best edits - a talk page query would have been better; but remember this was selected by Lt from dozens of corrections I've raised. He says nothing about these [63], [64] (see Talk around the collapse box of 9 July), [65], [66] (where he's accepted several of my queries), for instance.  —SMALLJIM  17:50, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Your edit-box comment on removing the well-sourced image of Baron Berkeley was "Rm graphics - appears to be OR that they are of this person". Perhaps next time don't guess. I only came across your edit when working on Baron Lisle, a related topic, and was surprised to find the image of the brass (which I travelled over 200 miles to photograph at great time, expense and some danger - climbing up and leaning off a 6 foot ladder - in order to donate under free licence to WP) casually deleted. Not one of your best edits, true. I accept your apology.

Let's understand what you seem to be asking support for here: to have me kicked off WP for saying "Arscott, now South Arscott Farm" instead of "Arscott, which Hoskins says is now called South Arscott" and similar. Hardly a disciplinary matter surely? Are you serious? I could explain why I added "Farm" (OK, because it's a farmhouse not a village or town like South Tawton, South Molton or a hundred others in Devon, which it would sound like to a non-Devon, even non-UK, reader: in Devon farms are often, if not generally, known by just the name, i.e. "Arscott", without the word "Farm" added, as is usual elsewhere), but life is too short. Blenheim Palace is generally known as "Blenheim". I never thought someone would nit-pick about that immaterial use of editorial judgement, but this person does just that, all the time. I'm not a copy-typist, and WP does not demand that, despite what Smalljim repeatedly tells me.

Thanks Stfg for the above "You don't have the right to appoint yourself as someone's mentor against their will. Other editors exist, and you don't have to manage him single-handedly". But he did recently inform me: "If your work was of an acceptable standard, I wouldn't have to keep correcting it: as an admin I feel a particularly strong responsibility to do this, since it's unlikely that any other active Wikipedian is in a position to be able to do so". From Smalljim Talk:Dunsland, 28 Oct. How smug: Only I can save the world! Only I read Devon history books like Hoskins (paperback available at Waterstones, sell like hotcakes I'm told). The classic attitude of someone who is becoming delusional. Remember he cut short his 2 month holiday just to spend two solid days, and counting, in heroically manning the barricades against the "threat to the project" of three of my brand-new articles. Where is the threat? Smalljim you are no William Pitt defending England from a French invasion. I think you are actually defending your self-appointed role as acting (and rather bossy) head of the Devon articles user group, which I have opted not to joined. How do I opt out of this person's smug master-classes? (Lobsterthermidor is having log-in issues) (212.104.155.43 (talk) 21:05, 1 November 2013 (UTC))

I'm sad that you've chosen to use what I said to him as a weapon against him, instead using what I said to you as a way to help you. You really need to avoid such inflammatory language. And I'm sorry that my attempt to pour oil on the water has instead added fuel to the fire. I don't know what you guys think ought to happen or how you plan to make it happen, but I wish you both luck. --Stfg (talk) 22:24, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think his post provides good evidence for why he should not be editing WP. Apart from the contempt with which he treats anyone who disagrees with him (his treatment of User:CaroleHenson was heading the same way before he retired for the second time [67][68][69]), he persistently ignores the main problems and tries to deflect attention into minor issues. The two issues I identified at John Arscott (1613-1675) are minor points in themselves which anyone else would either just let go or easily refute, but he's kept harping on about them [70][71][72][73][74] without answering them. Do have a look at Talk:John Arscott (1613-1675), someone and please tell me if I'm wrong. Yes, I know how trivial this example on its own is – the problem arises because this misinterpretation of sources, this failure to WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE, happens over and over again in his contributions. And that's one element of his behaviour that neatly matches those listed at WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. What I feel now is the same as when CaroleHenson and I posted on his Talk page when he first retired, back in June.  —SMALLJIM  23:04, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Your examples are indeed trivial. The "South Arscott" vs. "South Arscott Farm" one I've answered above, I hope. Not a misinterpretation of the source, but a clarification of the source, it's a farmhouse for pity's sake with a thatched roof and the house is in Ashwater parish, just within the boundary. Look at the OS map. I explained Hoskins's inaccuracy in a note. Hoskins sometimes gets things wrong, and I'm not going to parrot something I know is wrong. WP says I have to give a line ref for anything with "more than a 50% chance of being challenged". I did not imagine anyone would demand a source for that minor issue. You should have added a cn note, not reverted.

As for the Arscott family of Tetcott, they "epitomise all the ancient Devonshire squires" (p.493) for one reason, which would be familiar to someone who has understood Hoskins' point intelligently not mechanically. See p.79: "It was a matter of some three centuries or so; ten or twelve generations for the ancient freeholder to establish himself in the ranks of the squirearchy - Acland, Furse, Monk, Edgcumbe, Arscott, a whole host of them succeeded - and marriage was the greatest single cause of their advancement". What the Arscott family epitomised, the Tetcott branch no more than the Dunsland one, both were grand mansions on estates only a few miles apart, and near Arscott itself, was this particularly Devonian phenomenon of the rise from the humble mediaeval freeholder into the county gentry over time, which Hoskins describes. He takes the reader forward to page 493 with that point having been grasped. Unlike the Norman or French warrior class in Devon who were already members of foreign nobilities or gained nobility or gentry through martial deeds, the Fortescues, Bourchiers, Giffards, Dinhams etc. I understood Hoskins to mean this, a return to an earlier theme of his in the book, you thought he was talking literally about "wind-flung rooks on December afternoons" and "branch strewn parks"(p.493). I would guess that on a December afternoon there were as many noisy rooks at Dunsland as at Tetcott, and lots of branches on the grass at both places. That is to miss the real point he was making. The Arscotts were a family which all originated as humble freeholders at Arscott, now a thatched farmhouse. They rose to the gentry by this process so notable in Devon. That's what they epitomise. I think my interpretation of Hoskins's text is the better one than yours - yes you got the words right, but the true import and significance of Hoskins's insight escaped you. Perhaps it might have been better had I quoted as a ref p.79 instead, but passages like this one do need intelligent reading and interpretation. The Rothschilds in all their European branches epitomise something too, a certain forward progress, one successful branch of the family no more than another. It's similar with the Arscotts. I think that's what Hoskins was saying. Some passages in sources are black and white, i.e. "John Smith died in 1501", but others are not, like this one. Not a failure to WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE, just a proper non-mechanical understanding of this unusually florid passage in this book. Lobsterthermidor (212.104.155.43 (talk) 02:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC))

Thanks for replying at last, though to have done so where these questions were asked would have been far better – people trying to follow this (if anyone has got this far) don't need to plough through such detail. Both explanations go far beyond what the sources say, of course, and your failure to understand this shows once more that you still don't get WP:OR, despite assertions to the contrary [75][76]. Or maybe it's an inability to say "sorry, I was wrong". Either way you need to publish your research somewhere else, where such constraints don't apply.  —SMALLJIM  08:52, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I think my above "Perhaps it might have been better had I quoted as a ref p.79 instead" comes pretty close to saying "sorry, I was wrong". Please take it as such. --Lobsterthermidor (talk) (212.104.155.43 (talk) 11:19, 2 November 2013 (UTC))

One other point that needs to be raised: According to WP:Administrators, "Administrators should not use their tools to advantage, or in a content dispute (or article) where they are a party (or significant editor), or where a significant conflict of interest is likely to exist." Did you think it was wise for you to embark on a (very) BOLD edit to my new text at Dunsland, actually a series of rapidly consecutive edits which could not easily be unpicked, all amounting to a BOLD? It was so BOLD my text and format were virtually obliterated. I suspect you knew I would revert it as allowed under BOLD rules for discussion on talk. That's exactly what I did, but I had to revert as a block, as my main contention was not the additions, always welcome, but the complete change from the format I generally use for this type of manorial history article, as you know. Instead of treating my revert as a chance to discuss on talk you slapped an admin's warning for disruptive editing on my talk page and stated "reverting is not an option". Effectively you attempted to use your authority as an admin to impose your format and text on my contribution, and to set it in concrete. And then you called me disruptive for objecting. You are a significant editor in this sphere who has been engaging in an edit war with me for at least two years. Comments please. Lobsterthermidor. (212.104.155.43 (talk) 02:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC))

No. I refuse to get involved in further side issues, unless anyone else asks me to explain my actions. This is about you – I suggested five times that you could raise a DR process about me (three at Talk:Dunsland alone), but you didn't. I'll just say that I've very carefully avoided using any admin tools in my interactions with you. Templated warnings are not only for admin use, as most editors here know (another of your failures to properly interpret our rules), and I carefully weighed the pros and cons before issuing it. Oh and since you've repeated it so many times now, please provide evidence that I've been edit warring with you for "at least two years".  —SMALLJIM  08:52, 2 November 2013 (UTC) (I won't be here for the next 12 hours or so.)

Not a side issue. My revert of your BOLD to Dunsland (which obliterated in a consecutive series of inextricable edits my format and much of my content, including the very important Domesday Book section) was the issue which sparked this whole matter of your bringing me to this ANI. It was what you called "disruptive editing" - see your first post at the top of this section. (My wording explaining my action on the talk page may have been somewhat intemperate I now admit). You attempted to use your authority as admin to prevent me following the 3RR cycle. Slapping templates on editors who revert BOLDs for good reason is not part of the 3RR process. Did you or did you not follow up your warning template on my talk page with your own words: "Reverting Dunsland again is not an option". That sounds to me like someone wearing his admin's hat to kill the 3RR process. --Lobsterthermidor (talk) (212.104.155.43 (talk) 11:19, 2 November 2013 (UTC))

As for all the OR accusations you have made about my text stating that Arscott was now a farmhouse, you should instead just have requested a source. I give it to you now: [77], the authoritative listed buildings text for: "Arscott Farmhouse and Barns Adjoining at West and East, Ashwater, Devon EX21 5DL. Date Listed: 21 January 1986 English Heritage Building ID: 90703". I await your apology, perhaps we could then move on under more amicable terms and you could henceforth be persuaded to assume good faith in regard to my future work on WP. Perhaps you could also remove some of the dozens of defamatory banners you have posted to many of my articles, referred to above by Stfg. It has the effect of blackening my name in the WP community, which isn't nice.Lobsterthermidor (talk) (212.104.155.43 (talk) 12:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC))

Well, I must admit that from the map that place looks more like somewhere that would have originated in the time of Henry III than the South Arscott I found on the A388. But what should I apologise for exactly – for listening to you and wasting my time looking for a place called "South Arscott Farm" that doesn't exist? And must I believe that had I just added a {{cn}}, you'd have quietly corrected it instead of ranting on about "immaterial pedantry"?[78] And if you knew of this britishlistedbuildings reference before, why did you not simply add it at the time? And why did you revert my edit, which although incomplete was at least properly referenced, to reinsert wrong info that there's a South Arscott Farm in Ashwater parish? And finally I should now take it that your production of this one reference more or less invalidates all the questions that I've raised or might raise about your work? Wow!

Moreover, let's get the facts straight in your above post: I changed one sentence and a reference - I didn't make lots of OR accusations about this as you claim; and your article text doesn't state that "Arscott [is] now a farmhouse", it says "(today South Arscott Farm)". Further, although this looks like the right place, there's still no reference that definitively links it with Hoskins' South Arscott where the family originated, so there's still an element of OR here, though this time it's not an unreasonable inference. Maybe you have another undisclosed reference that fills that gap (I haven't checked this time).

Anyway, that's a great job you've done in distracting me into minor matters again. It's the last time here...  —SMALLJIM  00:41, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Nobody forced you to look "for a place called "South Arscott Farm" that doesn't exist"(sic). You took it upon yourself to amend the text submitted by me regarding Arscott, when you might have been better either taking my text as "good faith" or by asking for a source or by looking for your own sources before launching into your edit. Your action was typical of your habit over the last 2 years of following me around WP and changing minutiae in my text as part of your on-going "master-class" directed at me, to purport I'm breaking WP rules. I have to defend myself. South Arscott Farmhouse does exist. I've given you 2 sources now, Hoskins (1954) p.411, under the heading "Holsworthy" (sic): "Arscott (now called South Arscott) was the original home of the Arscotts..."; and the listed buildings text "Arscott Farmhouse and Barns Adjoining at West and East, Ashwater, Devon EX21 5DL". You need to use sources intelligently, that's not the same as OR or SYNTH. You now seem to be retreating from your original position, and now term my text "an element of OR here, though this time it's not an unreasonable inference". I make reasonable inferences elsewhere, which you constantly condemn as OR. It's OR infringements you've been accusing me of in the past, so this is something I'm going to respond to, its not "distracting (you) into minor matters again".

It is the place you have identified 2 miles to the east of the A388 road, situated 3 miles SE of Holsworthy and 3 1/2 miles due north of the village of Ashwater, in which parish it is situated. (A-Z Road Atlas, & Google Maps, esp the one linked from the listed buildings web-site). I trust the following will end this thread as you wish.

Speaking off-main-space I'll elaborate: Hoskins called it "South" Arscott because sometime before 1954 another house was built on the farmland north of the old house. Look at the Google satelite map.[79] That place now operates as a Llama/Alpaca? Farm visitor attraction. Hence for the sake of the postman and visitors, "South Arscott" (the old one) and "North Arscott" (the new one) were adopted as names. This is extremely common with Devon farms, when the farmer gets short of cash he converts a barn or builds another house on his land and sells it. Hence differentiating names are needed for practical purposes. As an experienced editor on Devon matters you might have known that. The farmer generally often however retains the main name for reasons of pride, and will often continue to give his address as "Arscott". It is confusing. I know of one case where a farmer has built a bungalow for himself, sold the adjacent grand "barton" (Devon manor house used as a farm) to someone else and then re-named the bungalow "The Barton". I dare say the Alpaca operation markets itself as "Arscott farm Alpacas". You need to have a certain basic WP:COMPETENCE in the subject area to write well, and some of that I do have in this geographic area. Not OR. In fact this operation repeated many times is how hamlets grow into being. Who knows, one day Arscott may be a big city. Watch out for a paragraph on this historic estate in page Ashwater some time soon. End of off-mainspace talk.Lobsterthermidor (talk) (212.104.155.43 (talk) 13:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC))

Enough of this bickering, more input requested

Well that's been useful, but it's gone far enough. We both know where we stand and there's plenty of evidence here now for some helpful advice from other admins to be given (which is why I posted here in the first place). Would someone please do that now and if it involves censure of me too, so be it. But please – no accusations of stalking etc unless Lt is found to be completely in the clear. I repeat what I said elsewhere: if I hadn't spent the time to look into his work, no-one else would have, and the problems would continue. I can understand why Lt is cross with me, but I don't think that providing enough evidence to show disruptive editing can ever be a friendly process.  —SMALLJIM  01:00, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

"Enough bickering"? You don't come to ANI enough ... this is the home of endless bickering, and attempts to steer the conversation back on-track are usually met with loud cries. By the way, you're right, there's plenty of evidence...for an WP:RFC/U :-) ES&L 11:38, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

There is no evidence for a WP:RFC/U, the basic requirements have not been met, please look at the guideline. WP is not the home of "endless bickering", "endless bickering" is destructive to WP. Your input is not helpful or constructive.

I think the mature thing to do now is indeed to stop this to and fro and to get on with building WP. If I have made any minor errors in any of the articles I have submitted, I apologise and I will try to do better. I think my work is constantly improving. But I'm never going to be the perfect WP editor, if such is even possible. I'm not going to provide line refs for every word, every fact or sentence I contribute where I consider, under WP guidelines, there is less than a 50% chance of one being asked for (anyone's still free to ask, and I will provide such of course). I'm not going to parrot sources, but "say it my own way", as WP allows and often requires. And I'm going to say it my own way in an intelligent manner, not as a robotic and mechanical rendering. As for my complaint regarding Smalljim's behaviour I do not wish to make an official complaint on the DR board, as he has urged me to do, I'm not a fan of litigation. The words Wikihounding and stalking may have been mentioned above, not by me, I can't guess at what burning motive drives him with such force and vigour to break his 2 month holiday to recommence chasing me all over WP, but I'd like to notify him here on this public forum that his actions are perceived by me as distressing, threatening and intimidating, which makes editing Wikipedia unpleasant for me, undermines me and discourages me from editing entirely. User:Lobsterthermidor User talk:Lobsterthermidor(212.104.155.43 (talk) 14:09, 3 November 2013 (UTC))

Thanks for making me smile, Eats - at least your touch of humour wasn't wasted on me. But Lt has highlighted my plight here, which I haven't previously spelled out to avoid his inevitable allegations of canvassing (so thanks, Lt for allowing me to loosen my tactful British reserve). Yes, I need another editor to help certify an RFC/U – will anyone take this on? I can make a prediction though: he'll apologise profusely,[80] claim complete understanding of our rules,[81] scrupulous adherence to them in the future,[82] probably disappear for a while, then return substantially unchanged. Like last time.

Please, Lobsterthermidor, accept the inevitable. Leave now permanently and save us all, yourself included, a great deal of hassle. I'm really sorry that I upset you: I've tried hard to help you understand how WP works, but it's evident that it's not the right place for you. You should go and publish your research elsewhere: it's too clever, contains too much of your own knowledge and opinion (and, I have to add, errors), for a mere encyclopedia.

I need another editor to help certify an RFC/U. Thanks,  —SMALLJIM  18:46, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

"My work's too clever". Right. If I'm nowhere near expert in the topics I write on, which I'm not, I'm just a keen amateur who consults a wide range of sources, I take it Smalljim will be calling for a policy of banning all history professors and phd's from contributing to WP history articles. "Sorry sir, you're a doctor, you're too clever to contribute to WP on medicine! You there Mr Hawkins! we don't want any of your sort tarting up our astro-physics articles!" That's actually what a lot of people involved in the WP project want to encourage, a dream scenario for many, more expert involvement and input. What a ridiculous accusation! "Too clever for Wikipedia", sorry only room for dunces here, we don't really aspire to excellence. Not only have you just insulted your own intelligence but also the intelligence of every wikipedia contributor.

There's not a snowball in hell's chance of me allowing you to bully me off WP again. Full stop. I think you should now consider whether your desperate appeals for outside help, the above is I think your third, constitute evidence of a lack of support for your position.User:Lobsterthermidor User talk:Lobsterthermidor((212.104.155.43 (talk) 10:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC))

I dunno, the tone of pretty much every comment you've made not only here, but in a random selection of your contributions has me rather convinced that you believe it's your way or the highway, even when shown that your way is incorrect. I don't care if Mr Hawking edited astrophysics stuff...he's not allowed to act like a) a jerk, or b) like he owns the place ES&L 11:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

(ec) And furthermore, if Lt actually read what I wrote (it's a similar process to carefully reading and understanding a source document, actually) I didn't say anything about anyone's intelligence, I said his research is too clever for WP. He needs to correct his error in interpretation himself this time, since I'm not allowed to edit his comments :)  —SMALLJIM  12:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

My research (no quote marks required) before writing my article on the history of the Devon manor Dunsland (the location of what Smalljim called my disruptive editing) was nothing special. I informed myself about the subject, which involved finding sources, (4 or 5 I think, plus a map and a web-site, all permitted by WP), reading them, comparing them, assessing them. Then this research completed I engaged my brain to use the sources intelligently and wrote the article, often "saying it my own way", and provided several line refs where in my opinion there was more than a 50% chance of a source being requested, per the WP guideline. I made sure I was if anything over-profusive with line refs, often giving 2 in a single short sentence. The text was very well populated with line refs. I used two very standard works covering the history of Devon: Hoskins, still in print (reprinted twice in 1954, and again in 1959) and available today as a paperback in Waterstones stores in large Devon towns, which is the entry level overview book for anyone embarking on a study of Devon history. I also used as a source Vivian's Heraldic Visitations of Devon (1895), a standard work of a more detailed nature, a secondary, reliable, published work, comprising the exhaustive annotated research, presented in pedigree format, of Lt-Col Vivian into the descents of the armigerous families of Devon, from which pool of people were generally selected local government officials. Vivian is relied on heavily by very many Devon historians, and is available in paperback photo-reprints from the USA at very reasonable cost, and is available in original bound copy in the larger Devon free public libraries and also on micro fiche. I also relied heavily on Rosemary Lauder's "Vanished Houses of North Devon", a highly accessible but still authoritative paperback book which has proved extremely popular with the Devon book-buying public and has been issued in a 2nd edition. It is available, often in several copies, in Devon's public libraries. I also used Thorn's 2 volume paperback work on the Devonshire Domesday Book, again a standard work, perhaps requiring some more effort from the reader, but possibly the clearest and most reliable exposition of the subject available, clearly set out with notes. And I used the 1811 edition, with 1810 additions, to Tristram Risdon's ever popular and well known 17th.c work "Survey of Devon", a standard work still forming the essential basis of many Devon historical articles and works. I fail to see how my research based on a handfull of solid well recognised sources, an A-Z Road Map (Geographers' A-Z Map Company Ltd's 7th edition 1994, p.6, West Devon) and a couple of easily accessible websites was "too clever for Wikipedia". User:Lobsterthermidor User talk:Lobsterthermidor(212.104.155.43 (talk) 20:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC))

What's all that supposed to explain?  —SMALLJIM  23:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Sea salt

Tarhound21 (talk · contribs), apparently a single purpose account, is involved in an edit war on Sea salt. Several editors, including myself, have attempted to communicate with Tarhound without success, both in edit comments and Talk:Sea salt#Where sea salt comes from. Tarhound has been confronted with a number of arguments against inclusion, including reliable source, off-topic, original research, undue, and failed verification. I've posted a {{edit war}} warning on Tarhound's talk.[83] --Fama Clamosa (talk) 13:36, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Wow, editor looks like a poster child for WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Topic ban? --cyclopia^speak! 13:57, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest a short block for edit warring first with a stern warning. If that doesn't get their attention ... then more drastic measures. Vsmith (talk) 14:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Vsmith and Fama Clamosa have been reverting my edits. I have reached out to both of them on the talk page to discuss the edit which is backed by multiple references. This noticeboard discussion seems to have been prompted by Fama Clamosa reverting my edit and not discussing it. I have posted on his talk page in the past asking him to please discuss his objections to my edit and have received no response from him. --Tarhound21 (talk) 14:50, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Tarhound21, the objections are on the talk page, loud and clear, including mine, which you should take as a final warning. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 15:30, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I left a response to you on the talk page Drmies--Tarhound21 (talk) 15:36, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Talk:Sea salt#Where sea salt comes from. clearly shows that Tarhound21 is either incapable of or simply refuses to follow basic Wikipedia policies such as WP:V and WP:RS. I suggest a short block followed by an escalating series of blocks if the behavior continues as having the best chance of converting Tarhound21 into a productive editor. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
  • NE Ent is trying a different tack on the talk page, one with a better chance of success. Tarhound is not fighting over anything right now so I don't see any reason to block. Drmies (talk) 16:45, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Edit war ended two days ago - a block now would be punitive, not preventative. Talk page discussion is (hopefully) now headed back toward the actual article content (thank you NE Ent for the addition of sources on the talk page). Suggest this thread can be closed as "no further action" at this time. Euryalus (talk) 12:15, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I can see no indications that Tarhound221 understands the "last warnings" forwarded to him/her. The last edit from this contributor is less than convincing. I fail to understand how this lack of edits or comments from this contributor is an argument for "no further action". --Fama Clamosa (talk) 18:28, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Because blocks aren't usually punishment for past misdeeds. Tarhound attempted to insert material to the article, and then unsuccessfully edit-warred to keep it there when the consensus was for it to be removed. They could have been blocked at the time for edit-warring, but they weren't and the disruptive conduct has since stopped. What we have left is a content dispute, which is best resolved on the article talk page. There's presently no consensus for including Tarhound's California factoid in the article. If they argue their case and achieve a change of consensus on the talk page, good luck to them. If they don't bother with that and instead resume edit-warring to force its inclusion in the article, that will again be disruptive and action taken. In the interim there's no immediate action required. Euryalus (talk) 21:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Ausgoth

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

After being repeatedly blocked for edit warring and disruptive edits on the Samsung Galaxy Note 3 article (primarily for re-introducing cruft and poorly sourced information that he claims is "useful" and being "censored", but is just overdetailed cruft with soapbox comments about aspects of the device), Ausgoth (talk · contribs) has again re-introduced content against consensus and talk page discussion. Even worse, his edit summary this time states "8th ret of usefl inf del-d w/o reasons.Now 2 inadeq war.of eds dully rev-ing everth what's not from'em &covered by corrupted &indif mods, may wreck artcl wth impunity forawhil.It's unreasonably hard todo arbitration fr any minor idiotism.Pedia's scrapyard)" I think we need more firm action here. ViperSnake151  Talk  16:02, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with ViperSnake151, as Ausgoth still insists on his edits despite being redundant and erroneous. Before only blocks can be given to him but this time with his abusive remarks, a step-up on action, in my opinion too, must be put into action regarding this user and for the sake of the wikipedia articles he is vandalizing with.JeromesandilanicoJSD (talk) 16:21, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Two hours after his 1-week block expired, he made the exact same edit that got him blocked in the first place. Apparently a week wasn't enough. Blocked for 3 months. The next one should be indefinite. ‑Scottywong| communicate _ 16:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is getting disruptive

The edit warring between User:ChrisGualtieri and User:Ryulong is becoming problematic in the Anime and Manga Wikiproject, most recently Chris's splitoff of Bleach (anime) and Ryu's AfD of the article here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bleach (anime). This is not new these users have been mentioned here before and what I would love to see is a solution being brought up. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:48, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Chris is knowingly acting against the consensuses formed at Talk:Bleach (anime)#Proposed merge with Bleach (manga) and Wikipedia talk:MOSAM#Bleach break that decided that splitting was not a good idea and only claims that the cancelled mediation was the reason he avoided further editing the article and the no-consensus close of the Dragon Ball (anime) AFD backs up his decision to split. I am sick and tired of having to deal with this nonsense as much as the community is sick and tired of me and ChrisGualtieri fighting all the time.—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:54, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• The merge discussion for the Dragon Ball anime is so far largely against the merge Talk:Dragon_Ball#Proposed_merge_with_Dragon_Ball_.28anime.29 with Ryulong the only one wanting a merge there and 5 others opposing it. When more people are involved in the discussion, the results are different. All of the articles involved in this, have valid reasons given for their existence, including plenty of information that wouldn't fit in the manga article, and things created which weren't based on the manga content. Dream Focus 17:17, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

  I'll be perfectly fine accepting the decision there if the community believes that discussion of Dragon Ball as an anime should be separate from Dragon Ball as a manga. Though I will be really annoyed if someone suddenly decides that Dragon Ball should become a "franchise page" and produce Dragon Ball (manga) separate from it. But I should not have to go to WP:AFD because ChrisGualtieri keeps citing WP:BLAR as if it is the end all and be all policy on when an article ultimately ends up as a redirect, which is what normally happens during merges.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:20, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Ryulong has repeatedly, consistently and for months refused to discuss or bring articles that he disagrees with to AFD. Simply put, a page with 40+ citations and a contested blank and redirect should go to AFD per WP:BLAR. I hoped mediation would work, but Ryulong broke it off because he wanted to continue the dispute while it ran.[84][85] Ryulong chose to repeatedly blank and redirect Dragon Ball (anime) during mediation.[86][87] Then he finally brought it to AFD where it was no consensus and kept.[88] Rather than continuing with mediation he opened a merge discussion afterwards at this page, which is likely to be kept. Simply put, repeatedly blank and redirect a contested page is not helpful much less than one of such size. The Bleach (anime) page was no different, but it was on hold for mediation and frankly the blank and redirects are not constructive and removed large amounts of content.[89] I've been asking for months for AFDs and such if they disagree and at each and every single case, it has been kept. Including the three month issue with Dragon Ball Z that had over 60 sources and was repeatedly blanked and redirected by Ryulong. It was not me who has disdain for mediation or discussion, but Ryulong's believes he is better than the community and that is why 2 RFCs on his MOSAM reason were made and both showed MOSAM is not able to institute its own notability criteria for blank and redirecting adaptations and that the community never made it an official manual of style.[90][91] Knowledgekid87, you yourself changed MOSAM on September 9th.[92] Yet your seem to have no recollection of this with your edit.[93] Honestly, Ryulong's inability to discuss and constantly abuse rollback and blank and redirect articles is disruptive and destructive. It should be noted that I undid his redirect of this article with this edit, but Ryulong had previously redirected it twice before and it was challenged by different editors.[94][95] The sources existed and now it is kept, but Ryulong avoided WP:BLAR and made things needlessly difficult with his actions. I'm trying to improve Wikipedia and discuss with him, but a disputed blank and redirect should go before AFD. And I don't want to bring it before Arb Com unless I have to, but I did inquire about it after Ryulong's actions at mediation. This "fighting" is whether or not Ryulong can unilaterally enforce his will and destroy coverage because he has problems with "the fandom" and has stated he'd gut the articles if he could.[96] Not to mention the repeated Rollback issue that was part of the original ArbCom case and the subject of more issues.[97][98] I wish Ryulong could discuss, but if he just has to constantly blank and redirect and remove vast amounts of content repeatedly before discussing and than refused to discuss - I simply have no option but to confront the destructive action because we've lost hundreds of articles through Ryulong's interpretation of a nonexistent and community rejected line in MOSAM. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:22, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Just my two cents but I do not see any official RFC or such where the community rejected MOSAM. The discussion died a natural death with nothing being done. When my edit was changed so it was a guideline again and it remained unchanged until you edited it today I assumed that bit was over with. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:25, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

It was official and the community expressed issue and evidence was brought it was not ever put up for discussion as the page was created with the guideline status after being taken straight from A&M without so much as a talk page post. Also, more discussion followed the RFC. Which was then part of another discussion. Now you say your revert went unchanged, but it did not remain settled.[99][100][101][102][103][104][105][106][107] Clearly it is disputed and it is not a me vs Ryulong and the lengthy discussions surrounding it perhaps need an admin to get involved or another RFC, but whether or not the RFC ended without close the evidence and arguments were clearly against it. Slipping it by "oh it was listed for 5 years" doesn't help when its been actively disputed for more than half a year and it never went through the process and has had repeated issues in its implementation and usage. Sorry, but I believed you who initially opposed and than made the change was indicative of its natural resolution. Pardon me, I did not notice it had been repeatedly contested post RFC until now. I think the original resolution you provided was satisfactory given the situation and the way which A&M does not want the community to control the fate of MOSAM. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:52, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

@ChrisGualtieri: So it's my fault now that years ago WP:ANIME came together and decided to avoid the wholly unsourced and shittly formed walled gardens that you can still sort of see in the Gundam articles? And you are taking my comment here extremely out of context. I have to deal with incredibly poor sourcing, lack of sourcing, a vociferous opposition to the use of official spellings over spellings decided as "more correct" by illegal fansubs every day on articles that are not anime and manga related. God, the amount of hate I get on a bunch of fansites because I say the English Wikipedia should call something that has a very clearly visible English name the one that it says on the box rather than some name three people distributing illegal copies of the TV show to English speakers chose because it makes more sense in English is staggering. And in most cases the articles that I have to make sure that they are devoid of unnecessary plot summary and walled-garden-ness would make your head spin. There are so many articles that are in such a horrible condition that I have been actively trying to change how to coordinate them so articles on newer subjects can at least be up to par with an anime or manga article but I am opposed at every turn. There are too many articles on individual characters and groups of characters that are in such a poor condition and full of unnecessary plot summary and barely any real world context. Those are the articles I want to cut down and get rid of. And holy cow, you decided to extend our dispute into a topic area that you never touched in your life when you saw I made the same kind of edit you so detest that you reverted me to add a link to something that doesn't meet WP:RS. I should not have had to follow WP:BLAR as you have been demanding that I do for an article that I simply do not think that week meets WP:N (because up until then it didn't). It is so frustrating to have to deal with you constantly in ways that I never had to deal with you before and the community is clearly tired of having to watch us.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:54, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I understand your frustration, but you should not be taking it out on your fellow editors and you seem to forget that that website is cited and used by Anime News Network which is a RS. I just took ANN's citation of the news and cited it instead and the fact the article is sourced and meets N shows that blanking and redirecting it multiple times was not the best practice. You are not judge, jury and executioner after your first blank and redirect was contested you should have acted properly. You take everything as personal and do not even listen to the why behind the actions and you just close everyone off. Wikipedia is a volunteer project, but under no circumstances should we be miserable. I don't even do a lot of edits in the area, but it is clearly one of the most unpleasant and hostile regions of Wikipedia. You may be burnt out and frustrated - but you know I back you up when you are correct on something. I just wish you would drop the issue and discuss - we'd still be at mediation if you could do that much. At least that way it won't be a struggle just to get a wider community input besides three or four people. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:10, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

HJU's banner should have told you off. And the article, at the time, was only sourced to the production company's website. I turned it into a redirect because it was only just announced and there were, at the time, no third party sources discussing it. Now there are. I did not want to have to go through AFD on an article that would be valid under WP:N a week later. And honestly, most of my post is venting, because I am very obviously burnt out but I cannot trust the upkeep of these pages to other editors, no matter how well intentioned they are. I constantly have to remind them that they need to keep in line with WP:NOT, WP:RS, WP:V, and the like on a weekly basis. But this is all besides the point. I know you want to make as many good articles and featured articles as you can and that's a wonderful goal to live up to. I would kill to have one of the Sentai or Kamen Rider pages reach such a bar. But I just do not agree with the page layout choices you have been putting into place. These splits just produce identical pages that only differ in that one has a list of chapters you link to and the other has a list of episodes. And the creation of a franchise page for Ghost in the Shell just seems ridiculous. Why are we creating a separate article for the originating work and leaving all of the related media to its own page? I just cannot understand your reasoning behind this split.—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:24, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to examine that specific behavior of blank and redirect more closely. If you know the article will meet N and will have citations within a week, why blank and redirect? Even more disruptive is the fact that you won't AFD it because the AFD will close as keep after the citations are inserted. And the citations were online even prior to blank and redirect. Clearly, something is amiss here. You blanked and redirected an article three times that you knew would meet N and would be kept if it went to AFD. How is this not disruptive editing? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:50, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. If I had sent Kamen Rider × Kamen Rider Gaim & Wizard: The Fateful Sengoku Movie Battle to AFD on October 11, by October 18 it would have been closed as delete because at the time there were no third party reliable sources to support the film's notability. It's easier to keep everything in the edit history under a redirect for another 10 days when reliable sources do come out than it is to go through all the red tape on en.wp. I had to go through this in the past and because sources did eventually come out for something that I sent to AFD and that AFD closed as delete, I had to deal with convincing an admin or other editor (I can't remember) that time had passed such that it could be a valid article.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:12, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to debate whether or not Henshin or Hero Shock are RSes when the scans on the site is what is relevant. Plenty of coverage existed before it could be deleted as well.[108][109][110][111][112] There is more in Japanese as you clearly know, but the fact you decided to repeatedly blank and redirect matters. You are trying to justify it when even the official site had coverage on the 11th.[113] The whole knowing it will be kept yet choosing to blank and redirect it three times is the problem and everyone knows that once deleted or more likely redirected for WP:TOOSOON does not preclude future creations. Are you stating that your repeated blank and redirects are acceptable or beneficial? Policy seems to disagree. You seem to have a completely different interpretation of policies including their intentions - because if you are so worried about the edit history, I'd just ask for a redirect or merge to keep the history. You are worried problems that don't exist and your blanking causes disruption which causes arguments which causes community issues. Why do you find it so difficult to put something up for AFD or to discuss it at all? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:08, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Stop putting words in my mouth. Fansites should never ever be used as sources on these pages. Half of the time they just post whatever shitty resolution photograph someone who got a week's early copy of Terebi-kun or Terebi Magazine took on their prepaid Softbank cellphone and then posted it to 2ch which then got disseminated to 4chan and the fansites, which cannot be used as a source because it cannot be independently verified until anyone (like myself) can go to a bookstore and buy a copy of the magazine themselves to see what it says. Or they say that they're "leaks" which come from the same kind of person who works in the toy industry and posts photographs or scans of the toy catalogs and posts them and everyone sees them. Because no lay person can independently verify the catalog, it's invalid as a source. And this was the case on October 11 when Kamen Rider × Kamen Rider Gaim & Wizard: The Fateful Sengoku Movie Battle was created. I knew the film was scheduled for release. I knew that it would be a little while longer until reliable sources actually came out to support its notability. But I have people on this website chomping at the bit to get every little piece of Kamen Rider minutae posted as soon as they find out about it that they do not realize that WP:TOOSOON exists and I have to clean up. You are the only one who demands that WP:BLAR should be followed. I had never even heard of it prior to you throwing it in my face whenever I revert one of your undiscussed article splits. I should not have to go to AFD to temporarily delete an article that at the time is does not meet WP:GNG but will in a week's time. That is just retarded. There are people waiting to make Ressha Sentai Tokkyuger because people found out that the trademark was requested and that's the only source they have and they're going to speculate out the ass unless I watch the redirect I made like a hawk.—Ryulong (琉竜) 21:35, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• I guess I am "retarded" for thinking the procedure and policy are there to solve disputes or that articles with 40+ sources and being a major international success should not be blindly blanked and redirected two, three, five times. I didn't even make that article. I only reverted your blank and redirect because a bunch of sources were online and added one that I could read to cite some issues. Maybe you want to explain why blanked and redirected Dragon Ball Z five times despite it being a multi billion dollar success. I think you need to calm down, take a break and come back when you stop calling people "retarded" or some work "shit". Lastly, you know where page protection is and I suggested it several times already. You were an admin after all, but it seems that your behavior hasn't changed after ArbCom or the numerous ANIs and repeated issues raised on your talk page. I'm going to let someone else take this, because its dragged on long enough and I am tired of the excuses. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:25, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
• Comment How many times have the two of you brought a dispute to AN/I? It must be at least half a dozen times, probably more. Weren't you two participating in dispute resolution? What happened there? Frankly, I think people are growing weary of this as this fighting seems endless. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:55, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I am the one who brought this to WP:ANI because as you said people growing weary of it, so far three articles have been involved in dispute Dragon Ball (anime), Ghost in the Shell (manga), and now Bleach (anime). If you look at the page histories you will see reverts back and forth. It looks like to me the dispute resolution fell through. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:22, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Mediation was on hold for Ryulong's AFD of Dragon Ball, but after it closed as no consensus (default keep), Ryulong opened the merge discussion and announced he no longer wanted to participate in mediation if it has to be held up during the dispute.[114][115] Mr. Stradivarius did mention that the next step was likely a lengthy ANI or Arb Com. While mediation is privileged and non-actionable, Ryulong's disdain for the process and refusal to discuss and hold off on the dispute is the reason why it began again. He broke it off to continue the merger at Talk:Dragon_Ball#Proposed_merge_with_Dragon_Ball_.28anime.29 which is decidedly against merging. Simply put, I am frustrated with his repeated blank and redirects, but happy that the community and new fresh eyes can weigh in on the matter. Bleach (anime) has 57 sources and is 40kb in length now yet Ryulong seeks its effective deletion by blank and redirect. I think everyone is weary of the bickering. I've asked about Arb Com taking the matter. I just simply do not agree that multi-billion dollar franchises need to be merged to one page nor should they be. I'd gladly make my case before the community, but it is sad that there is fighting over the basic principals of N and GNG. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Chris Arbcom should be the very last resort, I feel some admin input would be best first before we take the case over. The process is long, and The most I see from arbcom are topic bans. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:34, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Arb Com is the last resort, but mediation is supposed to be as well. For many months, I have begged for admin intervention. I ask for policy to be followed and discussed; even RFCs seem to be of little use. After all, the RFC stated MOSAM cannot push its own notability - but now here we are having it as "editorial decision" instead. There is absolutely no policy to go on for these actions and "this is what we do" has proven disastrous. Arb Com does much more than topic bans, but given the circumstances I am willing to take the risk so I can actually add the content and get the community's input. I've merged hundreds of articles in the last month - yet only in A&M do I have issues. A&M represents less than 2% of all my edits and yet it is more than 98% of the problems I've had. As an expert in the subject area; I know I can be assertive, but never does anyone listen to why I do what I do or attempt to engage in consensus building or even improvements with me on said content. When the Wikiproject's response is to blank and redirect and delete - how will it ever grow? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I only recommend ARBCOM because a) Admins seem to be giving this dispute a wide berth despite it going back to early summer and b) not all of the parties will participate in Dispute Resolution (which is voluntary). I hear your frustration, Chris . I sense a reluctance on the part of Admins to hand out blocks in this conflict over content which centers on one WikiProject (but the conflict spills out into other areas of WP).

Basically, the only tools I see used at AN/I are warnings and blocks. I'm sure the two parties have already been warned so it becomes a question of whether a block would be effective at resolving this conflict. And here, the Admin crew seems undecided. It would be great if Admins used the power of persuasion to request Editors be less adversarial and work together cooperatively but I've only seen a few of Admins comfortably step into the role of a mediator.

This is why I recommended ARBCOM. It's an exhausting process but so are these frequent trips to AN/I. Maybe just filing an ARBCOM request would move some Admins to come to a decision or at least, reopen a discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:29, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Thanks for the correction, Knowledgekid87, I overlooked who brought this case to AN/I. I sense this conflict is affecting more Editors than the two involved. L.

Send this to arbcom then, I am not sure they will take the case but if what you say is true then there is really no other choice. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:41, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

While every case is different and must be judged on its own merits, ArbCom usually accept cases that have not been resolved by formal mediation. So if the parties feel that going to ArbCom is necessary, then it would certainly be worth asking. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour ^{♪ talk ♪} 03:57, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

ArbCom does not handle content disputes, which is what this all boils down to. All that has to happen now is that the various merge and deletion discussions concerning Dragon Ball (anime), Bleach (anime), and Ghost in the Shell (manga) reach decisions that have consensus. Also I'd rather brick this account that I've put nearly 190 thousand edits into than do another trip to arbcom.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

A "Solomon's Judgement" Proposal

• Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• ChrisGualtieri (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Being that this nucleus of editors cannot get along and edit in a collegial manner, also being that the debate on how to represent Japanese entertainment properties in wikipedia has been simmering between these editors since May (Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_70#Ghost_in_the_Shell.2C_Talk:Ghost_in_the_Shell) I propose the following:

Ryulong and ChrisGualtieri are topic banned from all articles and discussions in Anime, Manga, and Japanese culture broadly construed for a period of 3 months. This topic ban shall not include DR methods where they are invited in to help craft consensus, but should their involvement in said discussions should be strictly curtailed if their contributions are not helpful in forming the consensus. Both editors are strongly encouraged to stop any action that could be perceived by others as infringing on the topic ban or with the other party. Violations of this topic ban shall take the escalation path of (6 months, 1 year, indefinite).

• Support as proposer. I've interacted with these two (and one more) with respect to this general topic area before, and in my last interaction I wished the pox on all of their houses due to the oil/water nature that they seem to be unable to set aside Hasteur (talk) 13:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

  This is extremely draconian with the extension to all Japanese culture, as I edit a topic area that ChrisGualtieri does not that falls within this, making it effectively a complete site ban for me if it were to be enacted and I would rather leave and never return than deal with anything of this sort. I stated above that all that remains is the conclusion of a small number of discussions on what to do with the articles in question and then I will be done with ever needing to converse with Chris because afterwards I would hope that both he and I would respect the consensuses formed.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:13, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

  If you two had come to some sort of agreed upon resolution prior to having to run to AN* every few weeks with another low level content dispute that's boiled over into conduct, we wouldn't be at this point. I included Japanese culture, as I forsee some wikilawyering about what is included in the topic ban if the extra topic is not included. I want it to be crystal clear that my patience with you, with Chris (and tangentially with the 3rd party) is 100% exhausted. If it were up to me, I would throw the baby with the bathwater, because at this point all of you have argued and rolled around in the mud so much, that I cannot tell which is more supported by existing consensus. Hasteur (talk) 14:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

  As far as I can tell, Chris has never edited any other Japanese topic area (at least the one I am concerned with) until he came across my restoration of a redirect as I state above. But if it has to come to this and the community agrees, then it's been a wonderful 6 years with you all.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

  I still see no reason why you and Chris cant work this out, even if you two are topic banned the ban can always be lifted once an agreement comes into place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:55, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support for Anime and Manga only and oppose for Japanese culture, unless the RfC I suggested in the "A giant step back" thread below happens. My reasoning for why I would support such a topic ban can also be found in that section. Sven Manguard Wha? 16:21, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The RfC is happening, and until it is given a shot, I'm not going to support any further action. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:19, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support - If Ryulong wants to go down the WP:DIVA route because they are unwilling to find another area to edit in then let them leave, PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 21:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support anime and manga only - I read the discussion down there but the fact is that this has been going on for 6 months now. I feel that even if the two users are topic banned the RfC can still progress until a final outcome is reached. We have already seen the fragile truce being broken so simply having an RfC I feel is not enough. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• I just want to also note the two active heated merge discussions and an AfD for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bleach (anime) Bleach in it's anime form that has come out of this mess. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:43, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - I'd rather take a voluntary topic ban than have a dual topic ban which will only drive Ryulong away and let actual damage creep into the articles (even specifically A&M) that he repairs with high frequency! I also oppose on the grounds that it solves nothing. On my end you will lose thousands of edits to maintain, updating and other improvements including the numerous GA and GAN articles that I've done. I've begged for months for Sven's type of resolution. Give Sven's RFC a shot! Ryulong dropped out of mediation; I wanted this resolved - let it be clear and binding. Two arguments and the community to respond. No responses from us! Solve this without kicking the can down the road X months. If Ryulong disagrees to Sven's proposal; let it be heard anyways. This "Solomon-esce" proposal only serves to punish Wikipedia in whole and in part - and I much rather not deal with A&M than have it lose Ryulong's maintaining edits. Do not call him a diva! I may disagree with him over ideology, but Wikipedia would be worse without him. I respectfully feel that the A&M project is fostering blight and fomenting partisan politics. Without either of us; the area will continue to degrade. If you want it resolved; make Sven's RFC binding - a fitting replacement for the mediation that never fell through. I'll accept just about anything to keep Ryulong from a topic ban - he does what I cannot... and I worry about the deterioration of the area more than he does. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:06, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Regretful Support limited topic ban from A&M for Ryu and CG. I'm sorry that it's come to this, but I feel this is the best solution at this point due to the intensity and scale of the conflict between these two editors. I don't think either party is a disruptive editor, but the conflict between them is disruptive to the project. I understand that neither party will be happy about this, but it's a better option than letting the conflict continue. Mark Arsten (talk) 03:33, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Hold this alright. We both agreed to the RFC and it ends the issue. Let Sven do the RFC. The conflict pages shall be quick closed and the RFC move on. Doing this is unnecessary now. The RFC should be binding and if you are going to say a topic ban for both of us - at least spare Ryulong. It simply will upset me more if Ryulong isn't allowed to maintain the articles. I may not agree with him - but dammit - don't topic ban him! The whole purpose of this "judgement" is to force a final resolution right? I think the threat has served its purpose already! Come on. I'm begging you guys. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:34, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

A giant step back

I've been following this for a little while, from an extreme distance, but considering the topic ban proposal above I think I'm going to step in this time.

There was a time when this was a genuine content dispute between two parties that genuinely had Wikipedia's best interests at heart. Best I can tell, Ryulong's position was that anime and manga adaptations of the same work should share a page, and that the number of anime/manga articles for a specific series needed to be crimped down upon. The reasoning behind this position was that we were generating a stream of truly awful quality articles on minor characters and had separate pages for anime and manga adaptations of a work even when there was almost no difference between the two. ChrisGualtieri's position, on the other hand, was that we should have seperate articles for the anime and the manga adaptions of a work, especially when there are significant divergences between the two, and that Wikipedia tends to treat novels and movie/TV adaptations of those novels as separate articles, so the anime/manga position is inconsistent with practice on the rest of the site. These are both good positions that are grounded in valid observations and aim to improve coverage of anime and manga on Wikipedia.

The issue, however, is that those positions have become muddled over time and have taken a back seat recently. The discussion is no longer about splitting anime and manga into two separate articles, it is about Ryulong and ChrisGualtieri fighting each other at every turn. It reminds me of American politics; the positions held have become more and more malleable as the priority of the sides shifts from attacking each other's arguments to simply attacking each other and trying to "win". A half dozen major fights later, it's clear that there isn't a winner here, the losers are Ryulong and ChrisGualtieri (in terms of standing within the community), anime and manga (in terms of the paralyzing effect this fight has had, and because the fight is keeping other editors from wanting to work in the area), and Wikipedia as a whole (because we keep having to sort this mess out).

What we need is to take a giant step back and try to re-establish exactly what the two parties' visions are: Where should there be one article for the manga and the anime (i.e. one article) and where should there one for the manga and another for the anime (i.e. two articles)? What should be the the criteria for having multiple articles about the same franchise? We need to think about how we're treating the major properties like Naruto (significant scholarly coverage of several of the characters), Gundam (several anime adaptations that are individually notable), Fullmetal Alchemist (two anime, one of which differs wildly from the manga, one of which doesn't). In short, we need both Ryulong and ChrisGualtieri to lay out their positions in great detail, and then we need to have a discussion about those positions with minimal further involvement from Ryulong and ChrisGualtieri (because their bickering would kill the discussion before it started), that brings in editors with no involvement with anime/manga. It's clear to me that both Ryulong and ChrisGualtieri want the best for the project, but attempts to find an agreeable stance on coverage have turned into a brawl. Lets end the brawl with a well moderated RfC. Sven Manguard Wha? 16:21, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Don't topic ban Ryulong and make him quit Wikipedia altogether. Both editors just want what is best for the project. They need to lay out their ideas and then let other people carry out them instead of acting on their own ideas and arguing about them. _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 21:07, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Even if Chris and Ryulong are topic banned for a bit (By the looks of things this is not an indef ban being proposed) there is still time to have this RfC and talk things over without having the risk of the discussion becoming faded over time. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:21, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Accept - Make this binding! Block me if I make a respond beyond my single post at the RFC! I want this solved. I may not agree with Ryulong, but he does what I cannot and a topic ban for him will prevent his maintenance of numerous problematic articles. If not drive him from Wikipedia itself. Hell, my improvements and contributions mean nothing without someone like Ryulong to ensure that they have integrity. Let the community hear both our cases side by side, blind, posted by Sven. Argument 1 and Argument 2. I've tried desperately to reach the community - I'll not throw away the best chance to end this dispute, outside of ArbCom. Which if Ryulong's comments say anything would result in him leaving Wikipedia. And that is not "win or lose" that is "lose or lose". ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:17, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Why are we pinning this on Ryulong? Who's doing the radical splits without consensus? And who's trying to do the proper procedures? Ryulong is only trying to gain proper consensus before splits and merges, in which these articles have faced.

Let me note, that ChrisGualtieri does not have personal issues with Ryulong, but the fact that it is against the entire WP:ANIME's way of editing and has snapped to multiple editors. Banning these editors wont solve anything, and if this was an issue an issue worth ANI. i would say due to WP:OWN and WP:POINTY of certain editors who have split/merged articles without consensus.Lucia Black (talk) 01:22, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I believe that Chris' "Which if Ryulong's comments say anything would result in him leaving Wikipedia." refers to Ryulong's "This is extremely draconian with the extension to all Japanese culture, as I edit a topic area that ChrisGualtieri does not that falls within this, making it effectively a complete site ban for me if it were to be enacted and I would rather leave and never return than deal with anything of this sort." Sven Manguard Wha? 03:16, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• I will agree to this sort of rigid form of dispute resolution. Anything is better than a topic ban or going up in front of the arbitration committee (again).—Ryulong (琉竜) 03:46, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
  • The problem is that if the RfC is held there is still the matter of the ongoing merge discussions and the AfD at hand, both of you need to put down your weapons and the discussions you have been involved in to counter the other's point in order for a meaningful RfC to go forward. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:53, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
    • The AFD is ending soon (I think) and the two merge discussions seem to be heading towards conclusions, though. Unless agreeing to this sort of RFC completely shuts down those three discussions and then what happens there has ripple effects across the whole project.—Ryulong (琉竜) 03:58, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
      • I say screw it. Dragon Ball is going to close as a no merge. Bleach the anime. If Ryulong can deal with merging it for the time being. Do it. If its up in 24 hours and no one objects, I guess I can merge it myself. While its the last thing I want to do - Ryulong's agreement is cause for a "Drop all conflicts" situation and I'm not picky about closing them prematurely. Ghost in the Shell is a nightmare, but Ryulong. Merge the damn thing to one page. This is absolutely not a "win or lose" mentality for me. This conflict must end. And I'm willing to throw out basically all my work and drop all the issues if it lets us finally end it on reasonable terms. Because neither of us want topic bans. And the community is simply pissed off - I didn't bring this to ANI, but I don't want it to come back here or end in topic bans which will prevent you from doing as much work as myself. Let's do this. Agreed? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:24, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
        • While I rather not say it, I will: I'm going to take this RFC as binding, if not officially, but personally. If unfavorable, I'd be content to work within the communities decision. If favorable, I'd walk away from conflicts raised by Ryulong. Why? Losing Ryulong, topic ban or otherwise, is much worse for the long term integrity of the articles in the area than it is for me. I intend this to be the final matter. Long have I wanted the community to hear out the issues and decide for us - truly Sven's way is the best way. I'm willing to do whatever is necessary to make sure this ends with the RFC. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:25, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

The RfC is going to happen. I've sent off emails to Ryulong and ChrisGualtieri and once they post their initial statements, I will bring it live and spread the word of its existence. If both of them get back to me soon, expect it to go live in somewhere around 16 to 24 hours from now. Sven Manguard Wha? 06:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

The RfC is going to happen, yes, but does it mean ChrisGualtieri will stick to its result even if it doesn't go his way ? The recent Bleach (anime) incident shows Chris is ready to deliberately ignore a solid consensus against him, formed by more or less the same users who'll be involved in the RfC, and to intentionally misquote and abuse guidelines such as WP:BLAR to push for his views. Ryulong was wrong to play along with Chris' disruptive behavior, yes, but I'm afraid this is not just about ChrisGualtieri vs Ryulong, and I would find it unfair to equally associate Ryulong with any sanction against Chris. Chris has been involved in heated conflicts with several other editors of the anime/manga articles, and it is not the first time he crosses the line to apologize immediately after. For how long will this be allowed to go on ? Is there any indication that he has learned from his mistakes ?Folken de Fanel (talk) 09:28, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Memills

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Memills has been sanctioned seven times under the Men's rights movement related probation. Most recently, Bbb topic banned him for six months from men's rights related articles and talk pages, broadly construed. After being informed of this topic ban, and trying to appeal it with a unblock template, he made this edit, which is clearly in violation of his topic ban. With seven different sanctions and him intentionally ignoring a topic ban, can someone please just block him for the duration of his topic ban to enforce it? Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I reverted Memills's edit and warned him here that the next time I would block him. I'm really at a loss as to why he's been unable to grasp the fact that he's been banned, not blocked. It's not as if he hasn't been banned (and blocked) before. You'd think he'd be able to tell the difference by this time. Anyway, I don't favor a block for the violation.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:52, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

My bad, and my apologies. I'll refresh myself on bans vs. blocks. Memills (talk) 22:00, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, at this point, I think it would be worth reconsidering that Bbb. Seven sanctions alone is kind of astounding, and he should be more than familiar with what a topic ban means at this point - if he's not, I'd suggest a block would be worth it on WP:CIR grounds alone. He's made very, very few productive contributions, while racking up a ridiculous number of sanctions. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:15, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Let it go, Kevin. You have a very strong POV about the MRM page that is quite at odds with mine. I've made substantial contributions to WP, and, I am proud of them. Memills (talk) 22:52, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Nobody should be proud of anything to do with MRM articles ES&L 23:44, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I imagine Memills is referring to all of his contributions, not necessarily those to MRM articles. A substantial part of Memills's early editing history was focused on evolutionary psychology.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:59, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

The editor has apologized, and that is the end of it, for me anyway and I think for Bbb as well. I'm sure they're aware that the next infraction won't be whisked away like this. I don't know why, but somehow I am convinced of Memills's good will. Maybe I'm just an inveterate optimist. Thanks for reporting it, Kevin: your efforts to improve the project are greatly appreciated. Drmies (talk) 14:14, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll defer to the judgment of the two of you, but seriously wonder about whether or not it's a good idea to let an editor who has been sanctioned seven times and basically only comes back to troll whenever his last topic ban expires continue to edit at all. After seven freaking topic bans, he can't reasonably argue that he's unaware of the terms of community endorsed probation that that series of articles is currently under, and he seems to violate every tban he receives while no longer contributing elsewhere. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:44, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Check again, Kevin. I have contributed to at least seven other articles in the last 3 months, but I'm sure you checked that. Perhaps it was an honest error on your part. Memills (talk) 02:19, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll try to please both sides here. Kevin, Memills has edited a couple other articles; that their main interest lies with MRM is not really a concern. (Though I wish they'd find more useful things to do, like clean up the environment or make a foolproof recipe for muffins; I'm still having a hard time figuring out when to stop mixing the batter.) Also, you don't have to defer to our judgment so much as to our vigilance. I've never used that word before and I can't say I like it; it sounds like a word for a cop. But rest assured that Bbb and others will make sure Memills stays within bounds. Now, please--all this is heated enough already and no one can benefit from more fighting. Let's pretend to be real men, pat each other on the butt, open a beer, and get back to watching the Colts. Drmies (talk) 02:44, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:ProudIrishAspie and Infobox flags

I don't like having to come to this board for any reason, but due to the continued actions of the user listed above, I find myself with no other options. For several months, I've noticed that User:ProudIrishAspie has gone on long tears of adding flags to military history info boxes - generally for biographies, ships, and battles. The problems are that a) I don't think WP:INFOBOXFLAG supports such wholesale use of flags, but more importantly, it doesn't support the use of ahistorical and fantastical flags. For instance, this user has added the Gadsden flag to numerous articles as the flag of the Continental Army; this flag simply was never used in any such capacity. See an example of this here. In another set of instances, s/he has added a template with the Red Ensign to symbolize the Royal Navy during the American Revolutionary War; this is also incorrect, as the Royal Navy was also represented by a White Ensign and a Blue Ensign, and there is no consensus that the Red version ought to represent the Royal Navy as a whole. See an example of this here. Not all of PIA's flag additions are inaccurate, but enough are that a whole lot of reverting will need to take place. Even if accurate, as I expressed on his/her talk, I don't believe they add any more information other than what the words say.

• A look at his/her recent contributions will show you the extent of this user's single-mindedness. I would guesstimate that the user has made over 1,500 infobox flag edits since October 1; in my opinion (based on my knowledge and frequent work in and around American Revolutionary War issues), nearly all of his contributions to 18th century military history articles will be inaccurate. Even if not, he's cluttering up thousands of info boxes.
• I attempted to converse with the user three times, once in May, here, and twice more in the past week, here and here.
• This user has previously been blocked at least once because of this same issue this year; that discussion is at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive797#ProudIrishAspie.
• I understand the user has self-identified as being a person with Aspergers Syndrome; while I would in no way ever denigrate or "pick on" another user because of his disability, I do not believe a disability should allow a user to continue to edit disruptively - and to avoid talking about it. If he thought I was wrong, all he'd have to do is answer my multiple comments.

I am willing to answer any questions or concerns, particularly about the subject matter, which I know is unfamiliar to many. Cdtew (talk) 07:25, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Notice left on the user's talk here. Cdtew (talk) 07:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Cdtew, I was involved in the discussion last time that led to the block, which I fully supported. I have a few questions for you and for the general audience: 1. WP:INFOBOXFLAG seems to support no flags at all in infoboxes in biographies, except for sportspeople in very specific contexts. I know it's customary to have them in military people's infoboxes, but I don't even see that supported. Did I misread? What does MILHIST have to say? 2. Can you identify (for the non-specialist) incorrect flags after your second recent note? 3. Do you (and others) think that the ratio of incorrect vs. correct is high enough to warrant mass rollback? It's a drastic step, but it may be legitimate if there's simply too many incorrect flags.

  I'm going to leave another note for them, a kind of cease and desist note, though I don't anticipate any answer--this is one of the things that make working with the editor so impossible. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 13:55, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

  • I'm struggling to remember the last time I even participated in a thread at ANI but I think it's worth doing so here... I agree that INFOBOXFLAG appears to support not using flags in infoboxes as a general rule. I don't know if this was always the case. When I started editing military articles (primarily biographies) in around 2007, infoboxes always used little flags for nationality/allegiance and service, so I followed suit. Sometime in the past year my attention was drawn to the guideline and I stopped using infobox flags in my new articles and removed them from existing articles that I was improving. The world did not end; several other MilHist editors have adopted a similar practice. I don't think the issue is necessarily bad enough to systematically remove all flags in all articles, but I'd strongly discourage systematically adding flags (whether they're 'correct' or not) to articles -- it's imagecruft at best, misleading at worst, and is one of those WP behaviours that strikes me as plain obsessive. I'd have no issue with a mass rollback in this particular case. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Thank you Ian, for that useful narrative. (I always like stories.) I'm hoping for a bit more input from your fellow editors there. Drmies (talk) 23:35, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
      • The issue of flags in infoboxes in ship articles was recently discussed at WT:SHIPS and it was consensus that for them it was appropriate due to flag variations, ensigns, etc. I think it was discussed awhile back at MILHIST that flags for battles and such in infoboxes were not, but I'm drawing a blank on finding it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:32, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
        • @Drmies: I think you have most of an answer for (1) - I'm with Ian, but my position is that because a nation/kingdom's name is generally found in the "allegiance" and "service" fields, the flag adds no additional information, and serves to disproportionately emphasize the importance of those sections, which is contrary to INFOBOXFLAG. As for (2), here are some examples of edits that came after my recent warnings:
          1. Theophile Aube - This edit ignores the actual article, inserting the Kingdom of France's flag and the white French Navy flag for an admiral who served only under the Tricolour; PIA relied solely on the apparently incorrect dates in the infobox to add the wrong flag; this is emblematic of this editor's modus operandi: in previous discussions, he's stated that he makes these edits quickly, and acknowledges this leads to mistakes.
          2. Armand Blanquet du Chayla - Here, the editor removed the tricolor and replaced it with the Kingdom of France flag and the French royal naval ensign; this ignores the fact that the article expressly mentions du Chayla's service in the post-revolutionary navy, thus under the tricolor.
          3. Frank Matteson Bostwick - This is another systemic issue; throughout an untold number of articles, the editor has placed the Flag of the United States Navy (which was adopted in 1959) in infoboxes of people who died before 1959. This is ahistorical and should be rolled back.
          4. Samuel Hood - Here's one showing the Royal Navy flag issue.
          5. George Little - Another U.S. Navy flag issue, but this also includes a US flag issue; the reason flags are so messy for this period are that there were multiple U.S. flags between 1775-1800. So, this subject served in the American revolution under the 13-star flag, but also served in the U.S. navy under the 15-star flag (adopted in 1795); PIA has only chosen to put one, which is misleading. Multiple flags, though, will be too much.
          6. Francis Nash - This one is what initially caught my attention; note this was before my warnings. In this one, a U.S. flag issue appears (Nash would have in theory served under the Grand Union Flag of 1775-6, and the 13-star flag of 1777). Most importantly, though, this is an appearance of the Gadsden flag issue, which is now in a multitude of articles about Continental Army soldiers.
        • That's just some, for now. Admittedly, the last one came before my warning, but I wanted to explain to be clear. Cdtew (talk) 03:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
• Warning given: I will block if there's any more flag edits pending this discussion. Drmies (talk) 13:58, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
• Such edits were indeed made since the warning was given: here, for instance. That warrants a block, unfortunately. In addition, there is enough doubt here about the editor's competence that I believe mass rollback is warranted, as painful as it is: this probably undoes a large number of valid edits, but taking samples from the last 500 edits confirms that many of these edits are problematic, especially since none of them come with any kind of explanation. Drmies (talk) 04:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Instead of an outright block, is there a way to topic ban the user from the narrow point of adding flags, rank insignia, or other images and icons to the infoboxes of military history biographies? Cdtew (talk) 14:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Sure--the moment they start talking. Drmies (talk) 14:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Sadly, we can open a discussion and even enact it without their discussion input - which appears to be necessary ES&L 15:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I happened to see this section heading pop on my watchlist, and bells went off. I can't put my finger on anything specific, but this first edit to the user page stands out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

[Comment redacted by author]

Oh my. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Enok

Enok (talk · contribs) This user has been going around the various pages related to Italian cuisine and changing them based on his own person opinion of what constitutes "Italian". This behavior includes rewriting articles, changing templates (e.g. Template:Pasta (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), Template:Italian cuisine (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)), removing categories from articles (e.g. Category:Italian restaurants (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)) and name calling instead of discussing issues properly.

Some examples:

1. He has removed Category:Italian restaurants from every article that pertains to restaurants that are not in Italy based on his belief that since these restaurants are not in Italy, they are not Italian. One such example: diff
2. He has edited every article that relates to pasta and removed any articles that concern non-Italian pastas based on his personal opinion only Italian pastas can be called pasta. One such example: diff
3. He has engaged in several edit wars during his tenure as an editor. (see discussions on his talk page)
4. He has serious issues with civility, 3R violations and other problems. One such example: diff

I and others have warned him several times to stop and he continues his troublesome edit patterns. His edit style is rough at best and he has become excessively disruptive in the past few weeks. I personally believe that he should be category blocked in regards to Italian-related subjects, but that is just me. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 08:17, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

It's my impression that after getting lots of feedback yesterday, while Enok doesn't agree with the categorizations, he understands that he is in the minority and I don't think he will continue with changing categories for Italian restaurants and dishes. I don't know his/her entire editing history but it could be that he/she took these warnings to heart and won't continue this behavior. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:22, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with Liz. If there are no more disruptive edits then the practical problem is solved. However, what I think the attitude is behind the edits and the subsequent responses to legitimate concerns is troubling enough. If they keep that to themselves (that is, off-wiki) that's fine. But note their response in the Fettuccine Alfredo exchange on their talk page: that's totally not kosher on many different levels, and mirrors some of the discussions you see in Balkan-related pages: "book x is written by a person from country y and published by publisher z, so it cannot be authoritative". That's unacceptable and immediately disbars the editor from commenting on reliable sources, for instance. (Never mind that the author's grandfather and the supposed inventor of the dish "fought side by side in World War I", a nice detail.) Drmies (talk) 14:08, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
• What troubles me as to the future is not the removal of dozens of Italian cuisine cat references episode. That was an upsetting episode -- given the editor's odd, unique, views. Given his removal of appropriate cats from dozens of articles. Given that he did nothing at all to remediate the matter and revert himself after it was brought to his attention by multiple editors. And given his ongoing "I am completely right, the rest of the world is completely wrong" attitude. But as to the future, he has at least in this case deigned to defer to the completely wrong approach of the rest of the world. What does bother me as to the future is that this is apparently not the first instance in which his attitude has led to disruptive editing. While this cat is now safe from him, apparently, as long as he continues to have this attitude I'm concerned that he may -- yet again -- engage in similar behavior, to the detriment of the Project. I think that he would benefit from a final warning, indicating that similarly disruptive behavior elsewhere will not be tolerated.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:13, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) I agree with the above comments by Liz and Drmies – based on the fact that the user is confronted with the overwhelming evidence against him, I think he'll stop. Otherwise, he might be facing a block (but it might be better to first warn him, then block him for 24 hours). Epicgenius^{(give him tirade • check out damage)} 20:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
• My major issue is that he needs to be officially warned in some manner that his behavior is unacceptable. A final warning with the potential for a block would work fine. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 05:59, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Soapfan2013 not following editing etiquette for soap cast lists, Part II

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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After the first discussion was pre-maturely closed, they continued their edits. This is alarming that they're unwilling to even begin to discuss anything before making this edits. And I think it's time their edits start being seriously looked at. It's disappointing that appropriate action is not being taken at this point. SF2013 is obviously unable to handle the rules that they abide by with editing soap articles for as long as they have. And does not seem to understand that fictional characters cannot die, especially in a Soapdom. And their edit on the talk page of List of General Hospital cast members does not seem friendly or acceptable at all. It seems very condescending and rude, especially given their past interactions with past users, which are not part of WP:CIVIL. You tell me to post on their talk page, which I cannot, due to an agreement to not post on each other's talk pages and you want an interaction ban, yet the ONLY time we've interacted this past year was on the GH cast page, so I don't see that required. Their long-term edit conflicts with other members and sockpuppetry should be alarmed, as they agreed in the past to change their previous ways, and they have not. I find it unacceptable that the past discussion was moved without resolve; I was told to bring this here by other Admins, and given that no resolve was given, it gives me ill faith in the Administrators of Wikipedia. I am re-opening this discussion, however, I do have to take a brief (very brief) two-day hiatus from Wikipedia due to a heavy work schedule, and would hope upon a return, this discussion not be closed and moved once again, as it was yesterday. I'm trying to use this medium and platform as some way of mediation, and if Administrators are unwilling to help, then how do you suppose we resolve? I do not see this issue ending, especially with said editor, given their past edit history. livelikemusic ^{my talk page!} 15:15, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The first and obvious thing is that WP:ANI is not the place for general WP:Dispute Resolution including to request mediation as the header and edit notice note. In any case, mediation requires all parties agree to mediation. The second thing, while I don't know the history here, it seems to me if you've agreed not to post on each others talk pages, continually bringing the person to ANI likely goes against the spirit of that agreement, particularly if no action results. The third thing, even if you can't post on each others talk pages, I don' see what's stopping you discussing the matter on the article talk pages, no matter what you may think of their comments. Of course such discussions should focus on the article, not on the editors involved. Nil Einne (talk) 15:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I did not know what I did wrong, I posted on the articles talk page and this guy is still reporting me? Who made this guy the king of the soap articles? Seriously I did everything correctly, I think this guy is just after me for no reason. It says on his profile that he's retired from Wikipedia, why is he still on here? P.J. (talk) 04:07, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Incorrect answer, Soapfan. I'm tempted to close this, especially since the plaintiff hasn't produced a single diff to even give us an idea of what the problem is--or, what Nil Einne says. Drmies (talk) 04:42, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Nevertheless, why on Earth is this back here on ANI? It fell off for a reason... ES&L 09:11, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• So, at the risk of sounding like a borked record (or CD):

1. discussions about content take place on the talkpage of the article
2. all proposals should be policy-based, and NOT include discussion about the other editor
3. when all proposals have been placed "on the table" on that talkpage, you may request a third opinion, unless other participants have already helped to reach a new consensus about inclusion
4. if one participant is obviously being disruptive by not following that consensus, ANY of the other participants may remind that user on their talkpage - if you're on an interaction ban or other talkpage restriction, then you allow someone else to do the warning
5. remember that consensus can change: consensus reached a year ago may be revisited
6. if they continue to violate recent consensus, edit war, etc, THEN AND ONLY THEN do you go to WP:RFC/U, WP:AN3, or wherever is appropriate
7. never, ever (and I mean NEVER EVER) try to communicate with someone via edit summaries - that is not their purpose
8. people who don't like the advice given to them at ANI and simply re-add the same discussion are also disruptive :-)

I hope that clears it up ES&L 12:48, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alleged Facebook harassment

Hello Admins, just wondering what the procedure is if an IP accuses you of harassment on Facebook, which of course is complete rubbish, but at the same time I take it rather seriously. It's from a disruptive IP, who's block evading has made this accusation - here Thanks, JMHamo (talk) 15:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

User has been harassing me for several months, reverting edits for no reason e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Damien_Delaney&action=history and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kevin_Kilbane&action=history and has also been edit warring with myriad other users causing umpteen pages to be locked for frivolous reasons.

He has also got me blocked several times for frivolous reasons and clearly does not want me editing on this site.

He is accusing me of evading blocks which is complete nonsense because I am making edits from a different house. Not that I have been blocked for genuine reasons.

The last time I got blocked, I received no warnings; which is against etiquette.

User is now harassing me on social media under fake accounts. I suspect it is him because he made references to my editing on Wikipedia. I also suspect it is him because he has been harassing me and stalking my edits on this site for over three months now.

He is causing non-stop disruptions on this site by picking fights with me and other users. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.14.15 (talk) 16:03, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• "He is accusing me of evading blocks which is complete nonsense because I am making edits from a different house" er, no, that's not how it works. Blocks apply to the user, not the IP address. Since I can't actually see an existing block for you (the last one seems to have expired yesterday), I won't block this IP address as well, but you would be as well to consider this. However, you do need to substantiate your claims about Facebook harrassment (which frankly appear to be nonsense), or you'll find a different block being applied. Black Kite (talk) 16:12, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Why didn't I get any warnings for last block. It seems to have been implemented for no reason whatsoever. That isn't allowed. Yes, I do agree that this account shouldn't be blocked. Look through my edit histories. I don't vandalise pages or put in incorrect edits. I also don't revert factual edits which JMHamo has constantly being allowed to get away with, with no repercussions or warnings; which encourages him to keep doing it.

As I said on The Rambling Man's Talk page. I refute this allegation about your Facebook account, and I am offended by this accusation. In my opinion this statement alone deserves you are blocked for further editing. JMHamo (talk) 16:08, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

"timestamp man" is one of the less vitriolic insults aimed at me in aforementioned message. User since blocked me/cancelled troll account but message is still readable in my message history and I took the precaution of taking a picture of the screenshot. I take my privacy being invaded very seriously and I am not happy about this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.14.15 (talk) 16:09, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Since it sounds like private stuff is involved, you should send any evidence you have go an appropriate place like WP:Arbcom and in the meantime stop making accusations on wikipedia. Also there's no requirement or expectation for a warning before a block in all cases. For example, if you are clearly aware you are violating policy and you're unlikely to stop, no warning may be expected. To give a more specific example, if you have recently been blocked for the same problem, under any IP, it's likely you'll be blocked again and for a longer period without further warning if you come back after the block and repeat the behaviour. And as has already been pointed out, if you are blocked and come back even under a different IP and you don't repeat the same problems, you may be reblocked for block evading. The best thing to do is to be honest and either wait out the block or ask for it to be lifted if you want to start editing constructively. Nil Einne (talk) 16:47, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

IPs that appear to have been used by the same user:
86.42.0.170 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
86.42.0.202 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
86.42.1.70 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
86.42.3.116 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
86.42.8.57 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
86.42.11.48 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
86.42.12.125 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
86.42.14.15 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
Also see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/86.42.11.48 --Guy Macon (talk) 18:00, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• In addition to this SPI, Murry1975 had been keeping a log of this disruptive IP's hopping to evade any block. JMHamo (talk) 18:09, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

IP appears to have become deliberately disruptive and perhaps even drunk. Edits vary between correct updates but those which aren't inline with common project goals, and those which are plainly vandalism. Pathetic. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I didn't make the Begovic edit. Don't be attributing vandal edits to me. I am simply doing to you what you and that other user have been doing to me for months. I waste hours of my life making edits for you two to revert them for no reason. Quit playing the victim. It's tit for tat. I am just being as childish as you and JMHamo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.14.170 (talk) 22:32, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, you make absolute lies about me "refusing to discuss" the problems that have been going on for over three months now. What do you call all of this? JMHamo was told by another admin that there were no grounds to block me but he ignored him and went to you to enforce a frivolous ban, again. All over timestamps. You two have been reverting my edits for no reason for over three months AND I AM THE ONE "EDIT WARRING". Bloody pathetic. You two should not have the privilege of enforcing bans. You are as bad as me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.14.170 (talk) 22:35, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Could an Admin please block the latest IP 86.42.14.170? Thanks, JMHamo (talk) 22:51, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

These all seem to be in the 86.42.0.0/20 range, so I've thrown down a rangeblock.--v/r - TP 22:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Al Lemos Problem

I'm detecting, at any time, partial/biased/bad faith editions of user Al Lemos. I'll make a list:

• Partido da Imprensa Golpista - this article, talking about a non-existent political party, whose goal is supposed to "help Brazilian political right to dominate the country", was formed by pure POV, with extensive COI practiced by this user. I've inserted information that he had purposely hidden or ignored, and notorious information, and withdrew information that sources were unreliable, such as blogs, sites known to be partial, and blogs that fantasize to be sites. Result: User has did full reversal of all my edits without reading what I wrote, and tried to block me, and the article, for editing. After the problem led to the discussion page and administrators, Al Lemos even tried to talk, instead, tried to make me beg for forgiveness, as if I was his subordinate. The page was blocked three days, and he did not dispute my edits.

• The same ocourred at Rodrigo Constantino and Instituto Millenium, two pages that have relationship with the Brazilian political right, too. I began to notice that this user, when edit the political pages, always have the same behavior: create pages about right Brazilian politics, but with little information. However, the controversy section always are as long as he can do, and full of partial and purely opinionated sources like blogs and university theories made by young students.

• Shortly thereafter, this user, who was 10 months without editing Wikipedia in Portuguese, came back and began to create the same articles that had created here, but without my edits, putting only his partial. It presents itself as pure provocation.

• Observing the article Maílson da Nóbrega, largely edited by Al Lemos, I've found another huge section full of controversies with untrusted sources, including a magazine entirely unknown to the general Brazilian public, "Brazilian magazine". I objected that source in the Guild of Copy Editors, and Al Lemos just created this article, after this: Brasileiros (magazine). The creation of this article is in retaliation to me, and to try to justify the use of sources of this magazine on page Maílson da Nobrega and other pages. It's not an attempt to talk about the magazine. This is so true, that the article says absolutely nothing.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ma%C3%ADlson_da_N%C3%B3brega&diff=580007363&oldid=573830938 - Blog as source

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ma%C3%ADlson_da_N%C3%B3brega&diff=580008755&oldid=580007766 - Totally unknown site/magazine, this magazine is not sold to the public.

I can list several editions of him putting irregular sources. These are just a few. This user is trying to prove a point of view. I'm requesting his block, because he doesn't intend to make serious issues, just political persecution in Wikipedia. He is taking advantage of the fact that you don't know which sources are reliable in Brazil, and puts anything as source. Rauzaruku (talk) 18:10, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

It's very strange. I edit Wikipedia since 2006. I have faced serious problems with a partial and malicious editor in the Portuguese Wikipedia, Bruno Leonard. The lack of action of the administrators led me to stop editing in Portuguese and pass to edit more often in English in 2009. In 2012, the user Bruno Leonard (a notorious puppeteer) ended up being ultimately blocked for infinite, not by the Portuguese Wikipedia administrators. He was blocked by Meta. In all Wikipedias. It's an extreme case, and rare.

I don't have time to edit wars. I don't even have great mastery of the English language to waste my time debating wikipolitics. What I know to do is to create, edit and expand articles. I have an opinion about political issues which concern to my country. But I'm not mischievous or malicious. The sources that I use can be easily verified and are almost always sources widely recognized (at least in my country). Cause me surprise, therefore, the insulting, persistent and out of control campaign that this user called Rauzaruku is directing against me, with no administrators help, either to protect the pages in question, either to defend me from the cyberstalking and cyberbullying caused by Rauzaruku.

The attempt to disqualify the "Brasileiros" magazine as source is ridiculous. Just consult the ISSN and enter the website to verify that it is a real publication. I regard this attitude to the absolute hatred that this character feels for me. Hate that I don't know where it came from, because we had never had any contact before (at least, with him as "Rauzaruku"). The changes he made in articles edited by me (stables in the case of "Partido da Imprensa Golpista" and "Maílson da Nóbrega," and newly created, like "Rodrigo Constantino" and "Instituto Millenium") are typical of someone with a world view driven by the more mundane right-wing extremism, something that in the United States would be defined as "Tea Party-lover".

Finally, I must warn the administrators that this same user Rauzaruku was blocked on October 23 in the Portuguese Wikipedia for "abuse of Wikipedia to prove a point of view." I hope you do not fail to take this into account, when you decide who is worthy of a block. - Al Lemos (talk) 22:20, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Adding attempt to create edit war in Articles Demétrio Magnoli and Maílson da Nóbrega. He inserts a lot of blogs as sources and after this, try to block me by R3R. Rauzaruku (talk) 22:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Wanting to take the article by force, without discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Partido_da_Imprensa_Golpista&diff=580069108&oldid=580021583. I'm hoping an end for this massive abuse. Rauzaruku (talk) 22:40, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Accident on the Sasanian Empire talk page!

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I had a section that was titled "Recomendations to the Map Workshop Team" and I tried to edit it a little, but now it is gone and some of the talk page is messed up to put it lightly. If there is anyone who can undo what I accidently did, that would be greatly appreciated. Regards. Keeby101 (talk) 19:43, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Never mind. I solved it! :) Keeby101 (talk) 19:50, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Glad you figured it out. Part of what you were trying to do can be achieved by using {{Reflist-talk}} (with |close=1) on talkpages instead of {{reflist}}. I changed the page to use that template. Can't remember who showed me that template, but I knew nothing about it for ages... Begoon ^talk 10:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Perplexed regarding administrator role - requesting advice

In reading two unrelated articles yesterday, I've noticed that sporadic edits were being made by two editors that were little more than electronic graffiti. Both had posted to numerous articles over a period of considerable time, one for nine years. Neither ever made edits that might be in any way construed as being remotely constructive. Their edits seemed random, often involved insertion of gross vulgarities, libelous materials, and sometimes involved substantial deletions of legitimate and useful content. Neither editor had anything to do with any material in which I had previously been involved as an editor. I did delete false information about the subject of an article yesterday. Both editors used IPN addresses only. One anonymous user at one point misidentified him or herself as the vocalist "Kelly Clarkson," though not on that article's page. I've had considerable past experience working with the mentally ill and think that's the process that has propelled the two to make these edits. I think that any objective observer of the history of edits made by both would be led to the same conclusion. I think that the best solution would be for both editors to be permanently blocked. However, I am not personally willing to establish contact with either editor any more than I would want to approach a psychotic person screaming on a street corner. The peril in doing so, in my estimation, would be to incur the wrath of someone who might not be of sound mind and such an intervention might incur cyberstalking, if I might possibly coin a term. So my question is, what alternatives might I have to encourage and generate the evaluation and likely action by an administrator, without making personal contact with either editor (or any others, similarly situated) responsible for these postings? I'd be happy to delineate some of the most offensive edits made by either or both without identifying the editors in question, to facilitate resolution of this dilemma. I'd also be willing to post the IPNs of each editor to my TALK page or to my sandbox, if that latter option is accessible to an interested administrator. I'd also be happy to post details or examples of the edits in question by e-mail to the "oversignt-en-wp" address. What do any administrators think about this situation? Activist (talk) 21:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

If you believe there may be an issue with long term vandalism but prefer to keep this off wikipedia, please email info-en-vwikimedia.org, mentioning the articles, IPs and any other relevant information. Your communication will be kept in confidence.

I'd caution against attempting to do remote diagnosis, though, in particular if this isn't an area of expertise of yours but just a layperson's observation. Given the global reach of Wikipedia and the equally wide background of editors, the risk of misreading the situation should not be underestimated. MLauba ^(Talk) 22:12, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I'll go ahead and do that. Both editors (and a third I've discovered doing the same things) don't seem to have made a huge amount of offensive edits and vandalism, but many of their edits are scatological, etc., and sometimes involve deletion of substantial legitimate content to be replaced with what is essentially graffiti. All are clearly "spam." Both editors posted over a number of years, never any useful information. One did make a number of posts relating to articles involving the state of Nevada, but with no common theme. Activist (talk) 03:47, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

You appear to be discussing unregistered IP addresses which have made numerous edits over a very long period of time (e.g. 9 years), of which many have been vandalism or otherwise unconstructive. Far more likely than that each individual IP address has been used by the same (potentially mentally ill) individual for this period of several years, much more likely is the possibility that each of the IP addresses are shared by a large number of individuals (for example at a school, university, large employer, cybercafe, internet service provider that uses dynamic IPs, or similar) and therefore what you are seeing is merely the collective tomfoolery of how disparate people react to discovering that this is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Arthur goes shopping (talk) 12:57, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes - "Both had posted to numerous articles over a period of considerable time, one for nine years. Neither ever made edits that might be in any way construed as being remotely constructive. Their edits seemed random, often involved insertion of gross vulgarities, libelous materials, and sometimes involved substantial deletions of legitimate and useful content" is almost a perfect description of the editing patterns of many school IPs. If you want to let me know the IP addresses by email, I can look into it further. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 13:47, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

AGF failure from User:Leyo

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Earlier today I stumbled across the the Perfluorooctanoic acid‎ acid article, which was stuffed full of negative human health information sourced to sources which failed WP:MEDRS. I spent some time tracking down and checking the sources, removing poorly-sourced information and adding something well-sourced which was more equivocal.

The first reaction I get is from User:Leyo, who comments: "Your massive removal of content and your arguments remind me on industry positions and tactique". Prompted for clarification, User:Leyo allows that it "might be true" I am not an "industry representative".

What has happened to AGF?. Maybe I am being sensitive because of recent cases where a bogus assumption of COI is used as the opening gambit in an editor-to-editor discussion, but this is getting seriously problematic for editors trying to work in controversial areas.

I would ask that user User:Leyo be reminded that WP:AGF is fundamental to how WP works and that, as an admin, this should be particularly borne in mind as an example to be set. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 22:08, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I put a note on his talk page reminding him to AGF. GregJackP Boomer! 23:08, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

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Incivility from user of Multiple IPs

An editor using the IP 72.86.145.77 made this edit summary in which he/she falsely accused me of sock puppetry, without evidence. He/she then left this unsigned message on my talk page, in which he/she addressed me as "fool".

After I cautioned this editor that this was a violation of WP:CIV/WP:NPA/WP:AGF, I told him/her that I put aside his/her initial policy violations, and that I would begin a discussion on the article talk page to seek other editors' opinions on the content matter, informing them that I would move to have him/her blocked of he/she continued to attack me or other editors in this manner. I also asked him/her to sign his/her talk page messages. After I began the talk page discussion and invited other editors to participate, I informed 72.86.145.77 of this, presuming that further policy violations would not continue.

Subsequently, this message was left on my talk page from IP 72.86.138.10 (presumably the same editor, given the same content and tone, and the fact that the IPs are traced to Macungie, Pennsylvania and Emmaus, Pennsylvania, which are about 4 miles apart). The boldface is mine:

Ha ha, you make snide comments to others but heaven forefend that anybody respond in kind. You're a classic Wiki admin troll. You clowns dig in on a topic and refuse to permit obviously needed changes just to make yourselves feel important. Hilarious reviewing your previous edits of the Bailey page. Somebody adds the RELEVANT info that Bailey scored a game-winning goal in the '72 Stanley Cup Finals, and you immediately delete it. Why? Because the editor didn't supply a citation for this EASILY VERIFIED FACT. You who had just reprimanded a different user for deleting the obviously inaccurate original version of the fluffing of Krasne, insisting that the thing to do is fix errors rather than delete something factual. Like a said, a self-serving troll is what you are.

The same IP made this post in the article talk page discussion, which included these comments:

That's a very long way of saying "I want to have my way."...Such officious, self-appointed guardians of the Wikipedia flame.

In addition, in making some other minor edits to the article, I accidentally restored the deleted material, which was not my intention. 72.86.138.10 reverted it, saying in their edit summary, "Again deleting trivial blurb fluffing a random fan. Nightscream is a classic Wiki admin troll, digging in just to prevent obviously needed improvements. The Kings honored the victims after the victory; why is that not the focus?".

This editor needs to be informed that attacks like this are not permitted on Wikipedia. If he/she does not respond positively to admonishments from other administrators here (though his comments about admins he disagrees with doesn't make that likely), all of the IPs he/she uses should be blocked. Nightscream (talk) 22:45, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

This is an issue that started yesterday (2 November). There are a useful set of template messages that you can use in such circumstances. Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace. As a general guide, you start with the level-1 template, and gradually build up to level-4, making sure that you give him/her a chance to read them. The {{subst:welcome}} message is quite helpful, as it gives a guide that helps the new user, and also puts a link to the user's contributions on his/her talk page.

I think you are premature coming here.--Toddy1 (talk) 22:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The user in question made attacks at least three times, ignoring warnings after the first two. It is not, therefore "premature", and to argue that this person would somehow be more amenable if one used templates is silly. Nightscream (talk) 15:22, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Iranian peoples

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Can someone please look at the imagebox in the Iranian peoples article because I have reasons to believe that an extreme POV pushing and very likely serial sockpuppeteer is adding images of famous non-Iranian people. [116] She is disruptive and often attacks other editors. [117] [118]. She's also very likely abusing multiple accounts. Some of her socks are probably BBBAAACCC (talk · contribs); Krakkos (talk · contribs); Observerpashtun (talk · contribs); Mani1 (talk · contribs) but there may be more. If this may help, she's appearantly editing from Toronto, Ontario, Canada [119]. Also see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mani1/Archive. Based on behaviour, POVs, area of interest in Wikipedia, style of English and everything else they all seem to be connected very well, trying to Iranianize everyone and everything.--Fareed30 (talk) 23:40, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I've explained dozen time but you do not want to understand I think. Why don't you look at ur message page? Zarine Khan is an ethnic Pathan(Iranic) person who live in India. Therefore she is Iranic and anyone can add her to Iranian people. So you are the only POV pusher here. BBBAAACCC (talk) 23:51, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The accounts that you have mentioned above are not belong to me. Admins can investigate it. In addition, I want to an explanation about your reverts and edit war despite the sources. Regards.BBBAAACCC (talk) 23:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

There's no such evidence of this Indian woman being of Iranian race. I watch pages all day long and I'm sure that you're using multiple accounts for edit-warring. You adding Pashtun figures into Iranian peoples article proves alot.--Fareed30 (talk) 00:00, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

As I told, admins can investigate whether I use multiple accounts or not. It is so simple. And there are evidence, you can see it in the article(Zarine Khan-Early life). If you cannot see it you can read thish BBBAAACCC (talk) 00:07, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Edit: "... Asked about whether it was a risk casting Zarine Khan, the debutant from the UK, Khan says: 'She's a Pathan girl who speaks Hindi and Urdu well and was spectacular in the screen test. It was pure luck.' " BBBAAACCC (talk) 00:13, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

All the leading researchers around the world have concluded that the origins of Pathans is UNKNOWN. You're the only one assuming that they are part of Iranian peoples and adding their images in Iranian peoples article. That makes you an extreme POV pusher.--Fareed30 (talk) 00:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

There's no doubt in my mind that you're disruptively abusing multiple accounts.--Fareed30 (talk) 00:22, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• I see that you have not attempted to engage with BBBAAACCC on either the article's talk page or the user's talk page. This is a content dispute, and as such you must WP:DISCUSS the dispute at those locations, not here; AN/I does not deal with content disputes. If you can't reach a resolution that way, then WP:DRN is the next step. As for accusations of sockpuppetry, that's what WP:SPI is for. There's nothing here that's appropriate for AN/I at this point. Accordingly this is being closed. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

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3 more paid editors?

I came across Ireneshih (talk · contribs) when I was responding to a request from User:Antiqueight for the use of a navbar I'd borrowed from another editor. I helped Antiqueight with a speedy deletion and also noticed Ireneshih, whose article creations stood out as promotional (and with hyped and badly sourced content. I deleted Christiane Wyler as obvious copyvio. I did some editing at Murray Newlands and Online Marketing: A User’s Manual and took one of her articles to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Performance Marketing for Professionals. On October 14th BillingTracker was deleted as a G11, then on the 17th Duncan Law Group was deleted as a G11, obviously promotional, all by User:Jimfbleak along with DataNumen Zip Repair as an A7. SEOZEO had been deleted earlier as an A7 by User:RHaworth who deleted Icansia yesterday as G11. User:DGG has taken TeenzFAV and Yliana Yepez to AfD, possibly after I posted something about paid editors to his talk page.

The icing on the cake was a post by an IP to my talk page today at User talk:Dougweller#Deleting the entry for Christiane Wyler about Ireneshih's article on Christiane Wyler, signed by Christiane Wyler and asking why the article was deleted and saying the copyrights for her photos registered on Commons (although it was the text that I was concerned with). This establishes a link between the editor creating the article and the subject of the article.

I am also getting anonymous tips about paid editors, see User talk:Dougweller#Paid page creation of non notable artist and User talk:Dougweller#Paid creation of Carter Hargrave page naming or pointing to Khocon (talk · contribs) (some promotional articles already deleted) and BiH (talk · contribs) (with the accusation that this user has multiple accounts). Again this editor has had several articles deleted, one as a G5 by User:Mark Arsten which I need to investigate. Real life calls and I don't have time to deal with all the deleted articles by these two editors and must go off and notify everyone! Dougweller (talk) 06:35, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

BiH responded at User talk:Dougweller#Advice. Dougweller (talk) 07:39, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I had one or two deleted articles a few months because I used sources I thought are reliable, but they were not and I complied with it, because I was indeed wrong. Since then, I tend to use reliable sources and write and update things I find interesting and useful to Wikipedia (I tend to patrol random pages and improve them visually and with references or just tag them for later improvement), and I had no issues with the rules when I was told what can be used for sourcing. As far as "I have multiple accounts", please make sure that your triple check that, and I assure you that I use only one account. --BiH (talk) 08:31, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• I don't know about the paid editing issue but I am very puzzled as to why the edits to Icansia and its talk page seem to have completely disappeared. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 09:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The only explanation I can think of is that they have been oversighted. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

That's very weird indeed. If I remember rightly, when all deleted edits to a page have been the subject of oversighter-only RevDel, we still get the "___ deleted edits" link under the title of the page. Oversighters haven't been using the Oversight extension very much for the last several years, but that's the only reason I would expect the link to disappear entirely without a total removal of all deleted edits project-wide by server admins. Let me ask for the input of an oversighter. Nyttend (talk) 16:33, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The only explanation I can think of is that they have been oversighted. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

−

Same with Geoffrey Said which was deleted successively by Jimfbleak and myself. I wonder what oversight policy applies.

The only explanation I can think of is that they have been oversighted. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

−

Same with Geoffrey Said which was deleted successively by Jimfbleak and myself. I wonder what oversight policy applies. DGG ( talk ) 18:04, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I have now also listed most other of BiH's articles for deletion, by AfD, MfD, and speedy. One or two seem acceptable, and I do not like to delete acceptable articles no matter who writes them. Most paid editors make a few edits to establish their legitimacy. BiH has made a fair number of decent contributions, and a good deal of valid Wikignomeing, along with a fair number of references for political figures worded in a rather promotional manner. The best course to take with editing of this sort is to hunt out the questionable articles for deletion. Not all were in his edit history marked with N; for many, he wrote them in user space, and I found them in his move log. Doing it this way evades NP, (I'm not sure if it evades NPP) but it is nonetheless legitimate, & in fact a technique we have often recommended, especially before the rise of AfC. (Personally, I think the concentration on sockpuppets less important than being careful to remove all the bad articles in the first place, though of course sockpuppet identification does permit speedy deletion of anything subsequently written DGG ( talk ) 18:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I can see the deleted revision just fine, and no indication of oversight or revdel. Special:Undelete/Geoffrey Said and Special:Undelete/Icansia both show the deleted revisions. My guess is that this is just a server hiccup. T. Canens (talk) 19:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I too can see all the deleted revisions just fine. "Old-school" oversight, which disrupted the history of a page, has been disabled for several years now; current oversighters can see the edits that were oversighted using the old tool (if they know what log to look at) but have no access to use the old tool. All revision-deleted or suppressed edits remain in the page history of the article. I agre with Timotheus Canens that it's likely a server hiccup; I've had problems all day with (a) logging in and (b) navigating via links when I do manage to log in. Risker (talk) 19:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Confirming that there's no entry in the old oversight log for either Icansia or Geoffrey Said. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 20:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I couldn't see anything here this morning but it's showing up fine for me now. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:59, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello everyone.

It looks like these temporarily missing deleted revisions is part of a bug which was previously thought to be fixed. The issue was reported originally in this bug. A similar issue to the one above that happened on frwp is documented in this bug. I've added the above information to the bug report so it can be looked in to.

Best regards,

--Dan Garry, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 22:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:REHASH by Mark Miller

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Mark Miller is involved in tendentious editing at Talk:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. Basically, Mark wants to change the lede of the article against consensus. Seven different editors have tried to explain this to him on the talk page [120], [121], [122], [123], [124], [125], [126], [127], [128], [129], [130], and [131]. Mark has a clear case of WP:IDHT and WP:REHASH, to the point of disruption. He has been asked to stop, but refuses ([132]). Mark has been notified of this discussion here [133]. GregJackP Boomer! 14:32, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Why is this at ANI? He did one edit to the main page and then brought it to discussion. He has a strong point that because of how the interpretation of the 2nd amendment means different things to different people even with the latest SCOTUS rulings that the lead should be as impartial as possible. This is normal discussion, and ANI is not a route for its resolution. --MASEM (t) 15:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I don't see MarkMiller in violation of any Wikipedia policies based on the case laid out here. Tendentious editing is an essay, not policy. What should the administrator response be? --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 16:07, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah - I think that's right. Content arguments don't come here because they look like they might get intractable or protracted (and I'm not even sure this one is that - it's long, yes...). Begoon ^talk 16:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, I saw it as disruptive, but if I'm wrong, I don't have a problem in withdrawing this. GregJackP Boomer! 19:30, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I applaud your humility. I guess this makes it OK to close? --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 01:14, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

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Prohibition in Canada vandalism

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There is persistent vandalism on the page Prohibition in Canada within the past half-hour. The user 38.117.102.241 has been blocked, but not 38.117.102.243 even though they are part of the same range and doing the same vandalism. Why is that? Epicgenius^{(give him tirade • check out damage)} 16:31, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I think only one was reported to AIV. I've blocked them both now, but a rangeblock might actually be a better idea if disruption continues. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:47, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

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WP:BLP violations by a user

[134]. I have told this user that he should refrain from placing very serious and unsourced accusations of a living persons human rights record being "unapologetic". This is clear WP:OR by the user and now he has threatened to send me to report me [135]. I really need a third party opinion from an admin. Thank you. Proudbolsahye (talk) 16:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I took a look, he's using a Turkish newspaper as a source, but it looks like it's either a column or an editorial not a news story. Further it doesn't say what he says it does. It would be better if a native Turkish speaker read the paper, of course, but yes, it looks like BLP all the way here.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh   17:26, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

@KoshVorlon: Thank you for taking the time in assessing and responding to the issue. As a Turkish speaker myself, the source just describes the incident and does not say anything about his "unapologetic" human rights record. Above all, as you mentioned earlier, the source is an opinion piece by just one person. It is not an RS. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Persistent vandalism by User:209.66.194.214 at Buddhism in Japan

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Three times in a row vandalism. See history. Already received fourth and final warning. Further action needed now, I think. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:59, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Too late; he's already been blocked. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

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Wikipedia Administrator following me around and reverting my edits

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User:Andrevan (who I understand is an administrator) and I have had our differences in reference to contents of article Cornelius P. Rhoads as it relates to material that he wants to force in but when I see as irrelevant to the article. His reverts in that article can be seen HERE and HERE. I believe is a fairly simple thing that we could had worked out with some discussion. So I posted my response HERE, and went on to edit elsewhere in Wikipedia. In particular, he threatened me with a "block" HERE, which I feel he needed to do some soul searching himself as he is the one reverting my edits. In any event, I decided to do my part to engage him into a "cool off" period, as per Wikipedia "Dealing with disputes" instructions, and went on to edit elsewhere, at Museo de Arte de Ponce. However minutes later he shows up at Museo de Arte de Ponce, an article he has never edited before, an reverted my well summary-explained edits HERE, HERE, and HERE, giving no explanation for any of his 3 revert edits.

My charges against Andrevan are that (1) without good faith he is following me around WP:WIKIHOUNDING, which is contrary to WP policy, and (2) his behaviour does not assume good faith WP:AGF: he is looking for a reason to satisfy his ego and have me blocked, (3) he is WP:gaming the system, reverting my edits in a premeditated manner, only and exclusively to get something to work in his favor, that is, to attain a personal goal (i.e., blocking me). While I could equally well bring him to the 3R's doorsstep, I guess I am less devious that he is; I think ego-inflation may be at work here. In any event, I think we should be working together, not against each other. So I am coming to this forum for help. I am not sure what will stop or modify his behavior, I will let more experience admins see to that; I think there is room for both of us to edit Wikipedia. Perhaps someone more experienced here can remind Andrevan that when there is dispute, there are acceptable approaches to resolving them and acting in bad faith isn't one of them - especially for an admin, who presumably should know better. As of now there are no edit summaries on any of the 3 reverts he did to Museo de Arte de Ponce (SEE HERE). I left Andreavan another message in his Talk Page (HERE), but --contrary to his quick avalanche of reverts against my edits which I listed above, he has found no time to respond yet. I have little faith his focus at this point in on entering into discussion with me. I don't think I exaggerate if I say his focus now appears to be into ego-building. As such, he appears unreachable from my end. Could an uninvolved admin intercede? (BTW, by use of the code User:Andrevan, I hereby notify Andrevan I am making this request here that involves him as required in the instructions above.) Thanks, Mercy11 (talk) 20:05, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

This user is removing sourced material and citing nonsensical policy explanations like WP:BURDEN (the material had a reference) and WP:WEIGHT (how could a single referenced line of content give undue weight to a viewpoint?), neither of which say you can remove material that has a source if it's otherwise OK - and he hasn't made any cogent arguments about giving undue weight to a perspective through the material he has removed. He seems to think that the undue weight policy states that one may remove content about a different, but related topic, since the article is not about that topic specifically. This is obviously not the case, as I have communicated to him several times. [136] [137] [138] He also reverted me again because I did not use an edit summary (this is not a valid revert reason), nevermind that I was reverting his own invalid removal of information. I reverted his removals and brought it to HIS talk page to discuss the content he found offensive. As to Cornelius Rhoads, we've been discussing it for years, including during this incident; he responded while reverting my edits. I also asked him why he redirected FBI files on Puerto Ricans to FBI files on Elvis Presley but he hasn't explained. I have no idea what he is going on about with respect to "ego inflation," "being devious" etc. (methinks thou doth protest too much); quite simply I would like this user to stop removing content which is relevant and has references. I am having trouble AGF here since these edits are so clearly unproductive, and he is ignoring my messages to him on his talk page. Andrevan@ 20:14, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• This edit warring is no good, of course; I don't need to remind Andrevan that edit warring is edit warring even if you're right. Both should slap each other with 3RR warnings. Having said that, and having added that this is a content matter to be hashed out on the various article talk pages, the plaintiff's behavior on the Rhoads talk page leaves a lot to be desired, and the claims about ego inflating and whatnot in this thread show a distinct lack of good faith. HOUNDING is a big term to throw around when it concerns two articles, and as an admin Andrevan should have a certain leeway to investigate other possibly disruptive behavior--for the record, I haven't delved deep enough to see who got to which article first, but I don't think that matters much at this point. Drmies (talk) 20:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• In this case I think it's something of a one-sided edit war, since I am restoring referenced, appropriate content that is being removed. Andrevan@ 20:44, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) I don't understand how an edit war between two people can be one-sided. Either it's a content dispute or it's not. If it's not a content dispute, and is instead flagrant vandalism, you can revert the other editor as many times as you want and take preventative action (e.g., block the user). If it is a content dispute, it doesn't matter who is "right." The dispute should be handled using standard DR means. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 21:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• I agree that this is a standard content dispute and should be handled in the normal way. Mercy's behavior is really confusing to me since he is a long-time editor, but he is simply removing information and citing nonsensical explanations. It's not vandalism, but it does seem to be disruptive. Andrevan@ 21:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Meanwhile, on Bizarro Wikipedia, Andrevan and Mercy11 (both long-standing editors with years and years of productive editing under their belts) quickly realized that they seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot; stopped edit warring, apologized, and tried to figure out why the other editor wants to do what he wants to do; are not ignoring the others' posts on their talk pages; are not questioning each others' competence or motivations; aren't taking anyone to ANI; aren't following the other around, but also aren't throwing the term "hounding" around unnecessarily; and have quickly decided that all they need is a 3rd opinion from someone they both appear to get along well with.

Since this isn't Bizarro Wikipedia, I doubt anything like this will happen.

p.s. If you want a free 3rd opinion (not necessarily from someone you both know and trust), adding the sentence about Dr. Ewing certainly does not seem like undue weight, and "WP:BURDEN" doesn't really apply in this case. Unless there is a stronger reason for not including it that hasn't been mentioned yet, I'd leave it in and move on. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

You're spot on here. I'm really mystified to be honest. Mercy's twisting of BURDEN and WEIGHT here suggest almost no familiarity with the policies. We WERE discussing this on the talk page, but now he is ignoring me except to revert my reverts of his removals. Andrevan@ 21:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

ANI is going to be no help whatsoever with the underlying content dispute, if you two can't resolve it some form of WP:DR should be opened. As to the behavioral issues, as has already been stated edit warring is edit warring. Period. Nobody who edit wars is right, everyone who participates in an edit war is in the wrong. I can't believe that this needs to be explained to an admin, let alone a 'crat. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Request from user Mercy11 for a block on Admin Andrevan

Andrevan's over aggresive revert behavior has not been limited to myself only, he also reverted another Admin in something involving an administrative matter and without first discussing with the other admin that he intended to revert his administrative edit: HERE Andrevan reverted this admin, [User:Marine 69-71]], and administrator and a highly decorated fellow Wikipedian (SEE IT HERE), within a day (SEE IT HERE) of that other admin, Tony the Marine, having protected an article, Pedro Albizu Campos, where there was an edit war between two other unrelated editors. (That edit war, in fact, originated because the editor had moved a large amount of text from Cornelius P. Rhoads to Pedro Albizu Campos). I was perplexed that Andrevan had overridden the other admin (I have been editing both articles for years) and made my comments to Andrevan regarding his over-ruling the other admin HERE. (Whether Andreavan was correct in his summary is inmaterial; he did not folow standard channels for undoing the administrative work of another admin- that's what at issue here.) Given his wikihounding and his premeditated malice, his failure to follow protocol and the bad faith some of his edits involving me (which Andrevan himself admits to HERE) I think this overall Andrevan behavior goes way beyond reverting without explaining and I would like to ask that he be blocked based on the 3RR's rule which explains HERE that Andrevan does not have to reverted another user (me in this case) over 3 times, but that reverting 3 times or less, depending on the circumstances, can also result in a block ("Even without a 3RR violation, an administrator may still act if they believe a user's behavior constitutes edit warring, and any user may report edit warring with or without 3RR being breached."). It seems that Andrevan's reverts qualify for this provision due to his wikihounding, malice, system gaming and abuse of admin privileges. While I believe I was just reacting, within guidelines, to what I believed improved the encyclopedia, and in a civil manner, I must be blocked too, then let the community decide and so be it: at least I didn't wikihound, didn't act with malice and in bad faith, and did not try to game the system, nor took advantage of privileges as an admin. Thank you. Mercy11 (talk) 23:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

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Persistent edit warring without discussion

I reported Olde Hornet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) at the edit warring noticeboard three days ago because he or she has been reverting edits made by multiple editors in one article without making any attempt to contribute to the discussion in the article's Talk page or on his or her own Talk page. Although he or she was blocked for 12 hours, he or she has returned from that block to continue edit warring without any attempts to communicate aside from using the same edit summary over and over. I updated the notice at edit warring noticeboard but I'm afraid that it may have been lost there since it's not a new report and there seems to have been some edit warring or frantic editing on that noticeboard. Can someone please look into this and perhaps issue a longer block to this editor or take other appropriate actions (I'm not sure what else would be appropriate since it's one editor edit warring with others without discussion or communication despite our best efforts)? Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 20:54, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I would say looks like a reasonable indef-block considering this user has been warned many times on his/her talk page and has never edited any articles in the talk or User talk namespace. In fact he/she has only edited the Alabama State article ever. Andrevan@ 20:59, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

They have a handful of edits to other articles, but recently it has just been to Alabama State. Indef might be harsh, for someone who has been blocked only once, no? Besides, it seems to be one passage they are most upset about. It'll be easy to tell whether they have removed it. I say give them a week to read the relevant guidelines. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 21:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

You're right, I was wrong - they have a few other edits, but not many. Here's the one user talk edit. Andrevan@ 21:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I have indef. blocked him. Though I now wonder if indefinitely protecting the page may be a better way to force concussion. Thoughts? John Reaves 22:41, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it's good practice to protect articles when a problem is being caused by a single editor (although if you can truly force concussions on particular editors by doing so I might change my mind!). ElKevbo (talk) 23:42, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Right. Andrevan@ 23:59, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• I've been wondering whether that article was going to be updated anytime soon. The mess at ASU is much more than just a news blimp, and there's a lot more that happened since mid-October. For instance, the governor has called for the search for a news president to be halted, the university won't speak to the governor expect through their lawyer, the newspaper and many others have accused the university of stonewalling, and the current investigation has depleted the state government's fund so there will have to be extra funding to investigate $200 million in recent building activities. Anyway, protection is not necessary at this time since I hope the article will attract some editors (not me--I don't really want to write up this mess since it infuriates me, this alleged (!) waste of taxpayers' money), but I'll keep my eye on it. Drmies (talk) 01:32, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:DISRUPT, WP:OWN and WP:PA by user:Kwamikagami

Hello,

After a disagreement occured on the article Ghomara language and since no consensus was found, a discussion was started at WP:RSN (link to the discussion) to find a solution.

However, after getting two uninvolved users' opinions on the subject (see the discussion on WP:RSN: a user says that both opinions have to be expressed since there's no consensus (WP:NPOV) and a second one says that we can't simply unlink the linguisctic and the ethnic facts), and after I made a draft on Talk:Ghomara language, the answer I got from user:Kwamikagami was to call me an illetrate (WP:PA) and that he refuses to make any changes to the article, no matter if people gave different opinions on WP:RSN (link to the diff) (WP:DISRUPT/WP:OWN).

I would like to ask the admins to take action against the personal attacks made by this user and his disruptive behavior.

Thanks in advance.

--Omar-toons (talk) 23:22, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

That's as detached from reality as most of Omar's claims. In this case, he asked for people's opinions, they told him his antiquated sources were not RS's for classification, and he then wrote a draft using them as if they were. He uses other "sources" which do not support his claim at all, at least not without serious SYNTH. And far from not allowing any changes, I said I would have no objection, and would even make them myself if he'd just provide credible sources, as he finally did with the second article in question. I don't care if Blench (our single RS) is correct, I just expect basic competence. As for the PA, when s.o. makes edits that show no understanding of what they've just read, it's fair to criticize them for making illiterate edits. — kwami (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) "My god, are you completely illiterate?" is a bit harsh, but Omar-toons has mischaracterized or misconstrued Kwamikagami's actions as OWNership. Can Omar-toons please reconcile that charge with Kwamikagami's change on the Shenhaja page? --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 01:10, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

User Takaisi, second incident notice

User:Takaisi was reported for article ownership issues bordering on edit warring last month; see archives. At that time there was no reply, but the user stopped editing shortly after User:DAJF reported the issues.

Over the past couple of days Takaisi has again been editing. Most of these edits are well-intended and constructive. On the other hand, the user has a tendency to revert articles to his/her preferred version, particularly where stubs have been merged.

• College of Nagoya Bunri University 3 November
• Kanto Gakuin Women's Junior College 4 November

The editor also removes maintenance tags (Soka Women's College 3 November) and rarely participates in Talk page discussions. As DAJF noted in October, this may be at least partially a language issue. I have translated Takaisi's comments from Japanese to English on a couple of occasions in the past (here, here, and here), and have translated English comments to Japanese on User talk:Takaisi.

I'm not sure what sort of intervention might be appropriate, but I've done just about all I can and the user is not engaging with me. Perhaps others can be more successful. Cnilep (talk) 01:24, 5 November 2013 (UTC)