Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Take a look at these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

There is a full-scale edit warring in the article involving multiple users. I am not suggesting (yet) that the users be sanctioned, but I would appreciate if someone takes a look and takes some action like e.g. page protection or discretionary sanctions. I did edit the article long time ago, so that I am involved.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:12, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

• 6 edits yesterday, 1 today, 1 the day before. Looks like they are sticking to 1RR. I don't see the need for any drastic action yet. Dennis - 2¢ 14:10, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I see a lot of content that had references being repeatedly removed for what appears to be WP:I just don't like it reasons. 20 pages of talk archive! And really, how many times does Volunteer Marek have to repeat the link WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT before someone starts to scream? He's done it 14 times so far in the active talk page and it is no substitute for actual discussion. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:14, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Dennis, indeed I guess they self-oganized to stick to 1RR. There was some attempt on the action a week ago, but it was suddenly stopped by TParis (who was afraid that an intervention of an American admin could be unwanted).--Ymblanter (talk) 14:16, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

There may be some tag teaming, hard to prove, I'm just saying the article edit volume is manageable and I can't see any action to take there. As for the talk page, that is a mess, but better the talk page than the article. Being an American (and ex-military to boot), I'm not sure my input is any more welcome. Dennis - 2¢ 14:21, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Precisely my point, Dennis. I know we have an admin teaching English in China right now. Perhaps they'd be the least biased here. Or an Australian admin? Do we have any sysops from South America maybe?--v/r - TP 15:56, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Australia lost a lot of people in the incident and imposed sanctions on Russia. China, Latin America, India, Pakistan, or South Africa would be the best locations for an admin willing to do anything there.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I am South American. I think I could help then? → Call me Hahc21 16:11, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Your intervention will be certainly welcome in any case, but what I mean is that a South American users run considerably lower chances to be accused in affiliation with one side of the conflict than Americans, Australians, Europeans, or Russians.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:33, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

• Apparently a user wanted to report this matter to WP:AE (where it belongs), but changed his mind [1]. Given that, I think reporting this here (or anywhere) was not such a good idea. And yes, I agree with Dennis. My very best wishes (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for this discussion. I personally have no problem with an American admin. I would have a serious problem with someone who claims that tag teaming is "hard to prove" when there is very obvious and very serious OWNership by editors who insist they know "the truth" even though there's an ongoing investigation. Do they know something the investigators don't know? USchick (talk) 18:45, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

If so, how many "tag teams" do you think operate here, who exactly are members of each "team", and what exactly proofs of "tag-teaming" (as opposed to collaborative editing in good faith) do you have? My very best wishes (talk) 19:22, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I was thinking of starting a new sanctions request about this. Do you think now is a good time? USchick (talk) 19:26, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

No. I think that casting aspersions is a very bad idea, unless you have evidence to support your claims. I do not really see anything except a few people acting in a good faith. I think you should either remove your comment above (this is my suggestion) or provide your evidence at WP:AE, which would be a proper noticeboard for such case. My very best wishes (talk) 19:38, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. I will think about it. USchick (talk) 19:40, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't know the process. To ask for Sanctions to be enforced, can I ask on the talk page or somewhere else? USchick (talk) 19:51, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Ask an advice from any administrator who you think would be knowledgeable and uninvolved in editing pages on Eastern Europe. My very best wishes (talk) 20:11, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

The admins here have acknowledged that there's a problem on the talk page. Can you please provide some guidance on how to proceed? Thank you. USchick (talk) 20:54, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

So let me see if I understand this correctly. When it's time to block people, admins have a lot to say, but when it's time to offer constructive advice, there's no one to be found? I bet admins would get a lot more respect if they were wiling to take on a leadership role instead of acting like jailers. Just saying. USchick (talk) 11:04, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

There are three avenues you may want to take. First, if one of the editors behaves disruptively, he or she can be reported here or at 3RR Noticeboard, depending on the situation, or eventually even at arbitration enforcement. I would say there is very little chance for smth to happen - for example, once I was trying to deal with the editor who was adding {{fact}} templates to figure captions, and wanted to get references for the Constitution of Russia (you know, with ISBN etc), and I could only get him blocked from the fourth attempt, and my first attempt resulted in someone lecturing me that this is a proper behavior, and I am attacking a good-faith user. Furthermore, if this is a purely content dispute (and if you ask me, I would say it currently is), WP:DRN is at your service, and then mediation. I am not really looking forward, since you are in minority, and the majority can simply ignore the dispute resolution attempts, but you can try nevertheless. Finally, the most difficult route, which so far nobody tries to take, is to take every single source and get consensus elsewhere on whether the source is reliable in this situation. For example, if you think RT is a reliable source - take it to the corresponding noticeboard, insist that it gets evaluated, and if it is concluded to be a reliable source as far as Ukraine is concerned, info from RT can be added to the article.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:22, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, that's not a bad idea about the RS noticeboard. Thanks!!! USchick (talk) 21:15, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

But always do the search. This particular source was discussed numerous times, most recently here and becomes less and less reliable every day. Disputing questionable sources on the RS noticeboard is enormous waste of time. My very best wishes (talk) 22:09, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

My opinion is that RT is generally fairly trustworthy, and is most trustworthy where it reports on things that are not directly connected to Russia, and most useful when those trustworthy reports concern news stories that are deliberately under reported (or not reported at all) by media sources in the US (or, in Britain, by the BBC). It quite clearly delights in pointing out the biases and untrustworthy nature of some US and European reporting on some issues, which sometimes means it misses the point in its reporting, emphasizes the wrong things, and gives that reporting an unprofessional and rather amateurish tone. I think the idea that a blanket "trustworthy" or "untrustworthy" label can be given to a major media source that reports on many different subject areas in many different countries is always going to be unsustainable, which is why that particular discussion was called "a giant waste of time". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:03, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

People are arguing about what information they want to include, so the argument is not about the source itself. Time magazine is reliable, but there's an entire argument about what the article actually says. Any advice about what to do when editors cherry pick information to support one side of the story and ignore the other side? USchick (talk) 07:37, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Sure. Here is the official advice. You are obviously uncomfortable with editing these subjects. Edit something else ("may wish to restrict their editing to other topics"). My very best wishes (talk) 14:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Dear My very best wishes, if I wanted to have a personal conversation with you, I would have it on your talk page. Since this is an admin page, I was hoping for admin advice. Still hoping. USchick (talk) 03:52, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually this page isn't intended solely for admins, the header itself says that. There's no real way to get the advice of admins only, since there's no real reason. Admin have an extra set of tools, but their opinion doesn't count more than that of an ordinary editor. And an admin not acting in accordance with the communities wishes (as expressed by our policies, guidelines and ultimately consensus) will find their actions reversed and themselves possibly even desysoped. And editor who asks for action which is clearly supported by such will generally find an admin willing to take whatever admin only action may be needed, sometimes even if the admin themselves isn't happy about it (although often it's best if the admin has no set opinion). In fact, if you are demanding admin attention when there's no reason, it wouldn't surprise me if some admins are more likely to ignore you because they don't think it's healthy to encourage such behaviour which goes against sensible and expected editing practice. Nil Einne (talk) 18:32, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Topic ban for UrbanVillager

Based on this discussion, I'd like to propose a topic ban for User:UrbanVillager on all Boris Malagurski-related articles. The editor is largely a huge SPA who only promotes the filmmaker Malagurski. Beyond edit warring, there has been a recent rise in attacks via complaints to ANI (and now SPI complaints). See Talk:The_Weight_of_Chains#Pincrete_behaving_like_he.2Fshe_owns_this_page for further conduct since the last ANI. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:30, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. After the earlier ANI report, I watchlisted a few Malagurski-related articles to keep up with what was going on and, hopefully, offer a neutral opinion on what I expected to be the occasional content dispute. I quickly removed them all, as I couldn't handle the endless drama and pointless edit wars. In the above-linked talk page discussion, UrbanVillager threatens to disrupt the article to make a point. I think it's time to say "enough is enough". NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:47, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban; the ownership and promotional editing have continued despite all attempts by other editors to intervene. I have long since given up trying to improve those articles. bobrayner (talk) 18:19, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Sadly, I can simply copy&paste my previous response: I remain utterly unconvinced that the account UrbanVillager is anything other than an egregious WP:SOCK/WP:MEAT violation, per evidence collected in 2012, but discarded on a number of technicalities. Even if others aren't convinced about all that WP:DUCK material, it still doesn't take a lot of effort to conclude that this account by itself is a single-purpose account that is not here to build an encyclopedia, but instead to engage in a shameless promotion of Boris Malagurski, which in turn is a slippery slope into advocacy, propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, and political or ideological struggle. The entire thing has been a humongous waste of time, and this iteration is no different. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:13, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. Clearly a tendentious and promotional single-purpose account with a massive conflict of interest. We don't need to tolerate such editing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• I have not decided on this issue yet but an editor from 2010 who had contributed to a variety of topics does not seem to indicate a SPA to me. Chillum 00:22, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The topics edited on all relate either to the filmmaker, to the documentaries themselves or to the people interviewed in the documentaries. I'm not seeing a large variety unless you're including some edits years ago related to Serbia generally. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:45, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE 5th November, UrbanVillager, today made 7 edits on subjects not related to Malagurski, these are almost the only non-Malagurski edits in the last 3 years, even edits on subjects such as Serbian Canadians, or on talk-pages are almost ALWAYS directly connected to Malagurski (see also additional info below). Pincrete (talk) 23:30, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose A few very close calls. Most recent edits are mostly in the topic area of Boris Malagurski, however there are enough old edits in other areas that I am not willing to push too hard on the SPA side of things to a topic ban (I would need more evidence of actual promotion/advocacy that I haven't seen yet). [2] gets very, close to Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point, HOWEVER he doesn't ACTUALLY disrupt Wikipedia as he suggests, and as the WP:NOTPOINTy says "just because someone is making a point does not mean that they are disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate that point." Which I think applies in this case. --Obsidi (talk) 21:30, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The two ANI's referred to by Ricky81682 above are examples of ACTUAL disruption. Having made these accusations, UrbanVillager, offered no further evidence, (but still repeats the accusations in his response below). Every editor substantially involved in the WoC over the last two years has been a target of UrbanVillager's abuse and specious accusations. I will add concrete examples of abuse and disruption of the article, below if anyone wishes. Pincrete (talk) 10:30, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

• Comment User:Ankit Maity made a relevant comment in the discussion further down this page, which I'm going to go ahead and quote:

I don't get this All SPAs are bad concept. Come on, this is not some satanic cult promoting their ancient religion of Sabbatic craft. It's simply a user who is interested in editing a specific topic. Unless the user displays really poor knowledge of policies, has COI or fails to maintain NPOV, he shouldn't be classified as a bad SPA. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 13:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

--Richard Yin (talk) 15:11, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with that, it needs a showing of "has COI or fails to maintain NPOV", although if it is a SPA that suggests that such a NPOV/COI argument is going to be stronger, but it needs to actually be made. --Obsidi (talk) 20:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. Plenty of evidence has been given about the tendentious and promotional nature of UrbanVillager's editing. Given the previous history of disruption and self-promotion by Bormalagurski (talk · contribs) and his sockpuppets, we shouldn't tolerate very similar behavior by UrbanVillager, even if he's not Malagurski himself. (And why should we care?) No such user (talk) 10:30, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban per Obsidi, Ankit Maity, and Richard Yin's comments. Yes, there are some tendentious edits here but it is not all UrbanVillager's doing. As an example, see this recent revert war between UV and Pincrete: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] It looks to me like no editor has bothered to try to explain to UrbanVillager why his edits are unduly promotional, citing actual Wikipedia guidelines and policies, and why calling good-faith editors "vandals" is unacceptable. Instead, it does seem very much to me as though a small group of editors including Pincrete, Ricky81682, Joy, bobrayner and NinjaRobotPirate simply assumed that UrbanVillager is Boris Malagurski (Joy has said so outright a number of times) despite multiple investigations they opened being shut down for lack of evidence or concluding in the contrary, and have simply treated this editor in bad faith anyway. There is clear POV-pushing here from both sides. Warnings are deserved all around but a one-sided topic ban does the encyclopedia no service. Ivanvector (talk) 18:18, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Ivanvector, names 5 editors above, one of them (NinjaRobotPirate) has never edited on Malagurski pages, nor (as far as I know), inter-acted with any 'key' editors, it is therefore unfair to make NRP in any way responsible for what has or should have happened or not happened. I will reply to IV's comments about me if he wishes. Pincrete (talk) 16:40, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Not necessary, Pincrete, my point is that I don't think there's anything actionable here. My apologies to NinjaRobotPirate, I thought I saw a comment from you in one of the sockpuppet investigations but I was mistaken, and it was sloppy of me to have named you in my comment. Ivanvector (talk) 18:25, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per User:Ivanvector and because I believe that Ricky abused the tools. Caden ^cool 20:10, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Additional information

As a party to both recent ANI's brought by UrbanVillager against other editors (referred to in Ricky81682's opening para), it would not be right for me to offer an opinion, however I offer the following additional information. These diffs show the edit history of UrbanVillager: … … Global[15] … … Commons [16] … … German [17] nb Das Gewicht der Ketten = The Weight of Chains … … Greek [18] nb Το Βάρος των Αλυσίδων = The Weight of Chains ‎ … … Spanish [19] … … Italian [20] nb Il peso delle catene = The Weight of Chains … … Meta [21] nb complaints about block [22]and about removal of Malagurski page on Croatian WP [23] … … Romanian [24] nb Тяжесть цепей ‎= The Weight of Chains … … Russian [25] nb Тяжесть цепей = The Weight of Chains ‎… … Sh (Serbo-Croatian?) [26] … … Serbian [27] nb Борис Малагурски = Boris Malagurski Косово: Можете ли замислити? = Kosovo Can You Imagine ‎ Тежина ланаца = The Weight of Chains … … nb additionally, Hr(Croatian) 17 edits Don't show … 4 French edits which don't show … Bs (Bosnian) 1 doesn't show … Arabic there are 2 which I don't understand.

In every instance, the Weight of Chains article differs little from the 'about' page of the Malagurski website or press pack, as was the case with the English WofC page until very recently (which caused it to be in breach of copyvio, nearly 4 years after its first warning). Approx. 99% of UrbanVillager's edits on English Wikipedia relate directly to Malagurski, English 500 [28]. WP is being used internationally as little more than a shop window for an otherwise obscure and highly politically contentious film maker. Pincrete (talk) 23:18, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Reponse

So, a ban on a topic because I'm interested in it? Well, alright, makes sense. However, Pincrete and some other editors have openly said that they despise Malagurski and his work, openly allowing their POV to affect their editing on Wikipedia, but nobody cares about that because they edit other articles as well, while it's apparently punishable to edit only one topic area on Wikipedia. So far, I've been accused of being Boris Malagurski, twice, of being paid by him, being his friend or whatever, when in essence, all I'd really like is to contribute to the area of interest, presenting well-sourced material, regardless of whether it's positive or negative towards Malagurski and his films (for those who have the time or interest to look into it, they'll notice I myself put forward sources that were critical towards Malagurski, so this notion that I "promote the filmmaker Malagurski" is pure nonsense.

Basically, a couple of editors who despise Malagurski and his work (and have openly said that) flared up the topic area by manipulating editors who don't have the time to look into the issue deeper and presenting me as Malagurski, on his payroll or whatever, saying that I must be removed so that they can continue editing the article in a way that makes Malagurski look as bad as possible. I hope that this won't happen, but everything Pincrete and some other editors have done to Malagurski-related articles had the goal of making Malagurski look bad, while everything I've done is to contribute to the neutrality of the article, not really wanting to make Malagurski look good or bad, but so simply present what he does and what other sources write about him and his work. That's all. I follow his work and if it's a punishable offence to edit articles that interest me and discuss them on the article talk pages, sure, ban me. It's easier to ban one person and let the others do what they want to the article, as they've attempted before through canvassing, so I understand it's the easy way out. I've spent a lot of time on Wikipedia editing Malagurski-related articles and I think I made an honest contribution. If a ban is my prize, so be it, though I'm still proud of defending neutrality on Wikipedia, despite some editors manipulating the system to get rid of me. --UrbanVillager (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Please stop lying about other editors. bobrayner (talk) 18:21, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment on response, apart from myself, and UrbanVillager the editors who have contributed to the Boris Malagurski pages are Somedifferentstuff, Bobrayner, and … … Recent minor edits 23 editor, Tiptoethrutheminefield . So, it is difficult to understand who UrbanVillager's 'some other editors' could be. … … (I've discounted, bots, editors involved for 'Admin' reasons:- Ricky81682, Diannaa, Dougweller, Dennis Brown … … Retired editors Producer (Retired May 2014 ) … Opbeith (last BM edit 16/10/2012 [29]) … … Banned editors Kepkke, Staro Gusle … … I've also discounted any 'one-off' editors especially if edits were more than 2 years ago.) Pincrete (talk) 21:50, 2 November 2014 (UTC) … … Further comment on response, UrbanVillager, above refers repeatedly to 'a few other editors', but (apart from me), does not name them (he cannot, there ARE only a few others). He repeatedly says that I and other editors have openly said we 'despise Malagurski and his work'. He accuses editors of canvassing. Pincrete (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Two quick questions - Chillum, are you still considering this? And UrbanVillager, can you please provide diffs supporting your statement that other relevant editors said they despise Malagurski and his work. -- Euryalus (talk) 12:48, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

No I have not considered this further. Chillum 17:48, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

It would take a while to gather all the diffs, but here are a few: Opbeith saying "'Malagurski's work is crap ... and it's knowingly deceitful crap" [30] (Note: Opbeith stopped editing Wikipedia November 2012, but Pincrete continued Opbeith's mission and gave the following thoughts about "The Weight of Chains", Malagurski's film:

"I'm personally thinking of making an alternative view of the Second World War, I'll start off with some cute film of some Jewish people telling the world how nice the Germans families always were to them, I'll have lots of stories of the rape and slaughter of Germans as the Russians advanced and as the Western Allies bombed .... I'll of course devote much time to the terrible conditions imposed on Germany by the 1919 Armistice ... I can probably find many individual Germans who did - throughout - act heroically and humanely. This won't be a difficult film to make, since all these things are true. I won't of course bother to mention Auschwitz, the invasion of 20 countries, the suppression of any dissenting views within Germany .... Why should I? "It's a movie .... It's an alternative view" ... put your feet up, get some popcorn watch my movie." [31]

Pincrete also presents his POV of Malagurski's film, instead of discussing the quality of the article, not the content itself: "Anyhow, many of the claims made in the film are NOT from verifiable sources ... or are from sources that a MASSIVE weight of evidence contradicts." [32], Also, he said: "those who made, watch and attempt to whitewash this film are painting themselves into an intellectual and moral corner." [33]

Bobrayner calls Malagurski a "minor film-maker" here: [34], and discusses "Malagurski-spam" here: [35]. That's only a part of it, unfortunately I don't have time right now to look for more. Regards, --UrbanVillager (talk) 13:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

UrbanVillager's quotes are ALL from remarks I made on the talk page on my FIRST and SECOND DAY as an editor in late 2012, I plead guilty to becoming involved (with UrbanVillager and Opbeith) in a somewhat esoteric discussion about intellectual honesty in documentaries, which - green though I was - I quickly realised was going nowhere. Even then UrbanVillager robs my quote of context as much of what I wrote that day was a direct response to HIS remarks earlier in the page. UrbanVillager also fails to note that Opbeith's and my primary complaint in 2012 was that the article was simply a copy/paste of the film's own website and press releases (I didn't know about copyvio at that time, nor what to do about it).

The fact that UrbanVillager needs to drag Opbeith into this (who made few article edits during 2011 and RETIRED in 2012), simply advertises the poverty of his 'conspiracy theories'. Pincrete (talk) 16:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Lfrankbalm

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

enough at this stage on Iotablue or . No view either way on suspected sock Adnarkey, and suggest this go to WP:SPI. The explanation given in this thread is disingenuous - the sock account is nothing to do

• LfrankbalmSo. I tried to give some advice to this editor on their talk page, but it seems like they 1) don't care and 2) are using their talk page as a sort of ranty Facebook soapbox. I know I was being a bit jargon-y with all the shortcut links and stuff, but, seriously? I don't want to deal with this - can someone else try to talk to them or something, perhaps give a little warning prod to behave? Thanks, ansh666 20:54, 3 November 2014 (UTC) (I'm not watching, {{ping}} me if anything comes up.)

Let me just make this clear to you; WP:ASSHOLE--Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 20:58, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

The talk page is in need of serious cleanup to return it to a non-soapbox state. The behaviour of the user appears to be short of civility and the above statement could quite possibly be a personal attack . Do we have a three strike rule? Amortias (T)(C) 21:04, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, no civility on my part here, because the idiocarcy which is Wikipedia needs transparency, call it what it is a big lie, a dissonance machine, a waste of time, a welfare program to feed the weak minded. THERE ARE MANY FOOLISH INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE ACTUALLY USING THIS RAG-TRIPE AS A DAY TO DAY FACTUAL REFERENCE. Until you edit this damn thing... you don't realize how fucked up and unreliable it is. This platform provides dissonance with an industrial strength platform for propagation. It is the definition of a computer virus. --Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 21:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• They do seem very angry, don't they? I'll try to have a word. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:48, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

No anger here;

My conclusion is that this technology provides a major societal disservice. The only parts of Wikipedia that are partially reliable consist of a few of the reference links, which for the most part are random in nature. Even the idea of secondary and primary sources is bizarrely-wrong as it applies to research. No, I am not going to feed something that is societally detrimental. I am more than happy to part company with Wikipedia.

More so than that. This is just a blatantly-evil construct as implemented. It has the unintended opposite effect of spreading ignorance not knowledge. Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 22:02, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• @Lfrankbalm: If you want to go, go. If you want to stay, stay. Protonk (talk) 22:05, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

No comment (yet) on the civility/ranty bits here, but why are we bothering to care what someone does with their talk page? Just unwatch the page. Protonk (talk) 22:03, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

There also being unconstructive on AFD's which was the original cause for concern if im correct. Amortias (T)(C) 22:06, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I see that, I'm just taking every opportunity to push back against the community's recent habit of nosing into user/user talk pages of editors and getting offended by what they see. It's pointless and meddlesome in almost all cases (with obvious exceptions for blatant personal attacks, shit lists, etc.). Protonk (talk) 22:08, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) What Amortias said is correct. After I attempted to give them advice about AfD, I got slammed with rants about how I was an asshole and Wikipedia is a breeding ground for ignorance, as far as I can interpret it. I have no real comment on the rants (other than that I don't think they meet WP:OWNTALK), but their uncivil attitude, including personal attacks, was concerning to me. ansh666 22:11, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

While I agree with the principle of leaving other peoples talkpages well alone the personal attacks and general soapboxing despite being advised against this does seem to be hitting every note of WP:NOTHERE. If they were just going on about something without throwing out at people who were offering advice etc it'd be one thing (that I would understand if let slide) but they just dont seem to be willing to contribute constructivley. Amortias (T)(C) 22:17, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I apologize to you on a personal basis.. Breeding ground for ignorance is quite correct. --Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 22:15, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Apology accepted, thank you. ansh666 22:22, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I've only just encountered Lfrankbalm in the last few days, first at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bibliography of the Tonga people (Africa), where I was unsuccessful in explaining notability of bibliographies (but it's a pretty weird category of article, so that's understandable). Still, I noticed there and elsewhere problematic WP:POINT and WP:COMPETENCE (or WP:IDHT) issues. The most recent talk page message looks to be the first thing egregious enough to come to ANI, though, so I don't know if this is misplaced. I'm basically concerned he/she is engaging with article deletion processes unconcerned with applying/following consensus-based guidelines many people have linked him/her to. Dismissal of Wikipedia as something with value here and at the blog-like talk page suggest WP:NOTHERE. Some WP:AGF is in order as this is a new user (although an account with edits almost entirely at AfD, nominating things for deletion, and working on pages he/she thinks should be deleted suggests some experience), but the basics have been explained/linked a number of times and seems to fall on deaf ears.

• For example at this AfD he/she started comments with Delete Palestinians, see Gaza Strip, definitely use asymmetric tactics to cast themselves falsely as the victim through the absorption of collateral damage (unnecessary loss of civilian life)., later admitting the intention of using AfD as a forum. Shortly thereafter he/she created Israeli child killing apparently to make a WP:POINT about the stone-throwing AfD.
• !voting in AfDs with rationales like "subject-matter is irrelevant", arguing delete based on links currently in an article, no rationale whatsoever, various commentary. Most of the user's own nominations are with clear disregard or indifference to relevant guidelines (e.g. this article which a basic glance at the relevant notability guideline rather than personal criteria would have clarified the person's fitness for inclusion (criterion #3 even gives "royal society" as an example, which, while Canadian rather than English, is quite prominent in the article)). I don't know that any of this is block-worthy, but the efforts of myself and others do not seem to be effective.
• Devil's advocates/critics are a useful thing on Wikipedia, and there are some edits that show this user may have things to contribute, but needs to better understand how things work before engaging in things like page deletions. I have a feeling after this my help might not be wanted, but as it's not a personal thing -- lots of people jump into AfDs, myself included, without quite knowing how they work -- I'd be happy to answer questions if Lfrankbalm wants help before nominating something for deletion, etc. --— Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:28, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

-Believe it or not, the discussions here are quite positive in terms (of forming a perception) on the process. For the record I did not create the Israeli child killing entry, I simply redirected it to Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict; as to tallest buildings in xxx it-speaks for itself ludicrous,Martin Daly was my mistake. ; as to the bibliography.... errh.--Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 22:38, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Would you be willing to take Rhododendrites up on their offer of advice on AFD's and have a look at your talk page to see fi theres anthing that might be considered a personal attack meant or otherwise that could be removed? Amortias (T)(C) 22:41, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

They've removed...much of their talk page (~7000 bytes), including everything that started this. I'm fine with that, though my comments did include some useful links. ansh666 22:45, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I wouldnt believe it if I hadn't seen it myself but this could be a constructive non-blocking outcome from an ANI! Amortias (T)(C) 22:49, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe it either. This discussion has been constructive from an overview-perspective. I am not quite as "fatal" in terms of my perceptions. In the first edit attempt, I attempted to do a minor edit on a "now deleted entry" to have every minor revision countered unbelievable resistance by a user abusing the process. I was viewing everything from that perspective. This discussion counters that in spades. --Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 22:58, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

As to User:Rhododendrites offer, sure why not..--Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 23:01, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll bung a welcome notice with some useful links at the top of your talk page if you want. It might be useful to point you in the direction of places for advice. I'd also suggest popping over to the teahouse if you have any questons as they are very good at providing advice. Amortias (T)(C) 23:05, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

-thanks.--Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 23:08, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I left a comment on their talk page regarding one of the AfDs that was contentious. For what it's worth, I did not get an insulting reply. That's good. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:10, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

As long as I have caused a fire-storm here.. Would anybody mind "locking" NYS Ebike Law from further edits.. The entry is now correct to fact.. --Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 23:13, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that one would get through the process to protect a page we only lock pages to prevent vandalism and major disputes that are going to affect the quality of the article. You could add it to you watchlist to keep an eye out for vandalism if your interested. There may be changes or other information that may be pertinent that other users may be able to add to the section to improve it orad other relevent information such as legla cases that are relevent additional sources and other facts that help t improve the reliability. Amortias (T)(C) 23:22, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I too have encountered Lfrankbalm recently, but all I know for sure is that he didn't understand WP:BEFORE before nominating Martin Daly for deletion. It seems I'm not the only one concerned about his behavior at AFD, though (see this edit). Also, I agree with Ansh666 that he has been misusing his talk page as per WP:OWNTALK. Jinkinson talk to me 02:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• I'm also concerned that Lfrankbalm does not understand the WP:ILLEGIT use of alternative accounts. For example, User:Renaissancego was created on October 21, 2014 and all edits to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gonzalo Lira and Doug Casey overlap with Lfrankbalm. Adnarkey edited Doug Casey here and here between Lfrankbalm here and the IP Lfrankbalm regularly uses here. In addition to being similarly uncivil, all of these accounts have the unusual behavioral characteristic of often double signing posts: Lfrankbalm [36], Renaissancego: [37], Adnarkey [38], and Iotablue [39]. If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance, but I am very concerned about the use of alternative accounts. --I am One of Many (talk) 04:53, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

er, "LFrankBalm" sounds a LOT like L. Frank Baum, the author of the Wizard of Oz stories, but more interesting is his first post mentioned Wikipedia jargon right out of the gate . Could this be a possible secondary I.D ? KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 12:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

-I created an Id to address the issue and concern with the Gonzola Lira article, it was necessary to do a request for help regarding a user who owned the topic.. .--Lfrankblam (talk) 13:21, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I pointed out the username similarity to L. Frank Baum to WP:UAA and the response was that impersonating someone who's been long deceased is not a violation of the policy. I guess it's a BLP thing. As for the alternative accounts, there are valid uses for alternates and it doesn't seem like this user is deliberately misusing them. The user has shown great willingness here to own up to their mistakes and reform; perhaps if they review the alternate accounts policy and retire whichever alternates they might be using inappropriately, we can let this one slide? Ivanvector (talk) 13:37, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Were I you I would WP:Site ban this fellow, seriously If I had the intent (which I don't) to cause absolute chaos on Wikipedia you would be seeing absolute chaos on Wikipedia.... --Lfrankblam (talk) 13:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC) BTW, I also reverted the redirect of "The International Man," on the basis it is the correct thing to do! Lfrankblam (talk) 14:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I would encourage the community to give Lfrankbalm a little slack here as they had a very bad first experience on Gonzalo Lira and were bullied and abused by an editor who 'owned' the article. That article has been AfD'd and the bully user has not edited since Oct. 20th. I'm hopeful that now Lfrankbalm can see the bigger picture and be a productive editor here going forward. If there are multiple accounts then that could be excused if he/she comes clean and they are all closed and there is an understanding that this is not acceptable for future per WP:SOCK.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:40, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

David Beals

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Short background: long term troll/vandal, adds pictures of random ceiling fans to articles, or tries to link to youtube videos of fans, sometimes compares people who remove the pics to Adolf Hitler, or misspells their names (perhaps changing a syllable to profanity).

See the SPI page and the archives for how much time this guy wastes.

At the latest SPI, User:McDoobAU93 raised the idea of contacting Beals's ISP about his vandalism. He's using a dynamic IP, but they're all from Philadelphia, and I'm guessing we've got enough socks to CU to figure out which service(s) he's using. I'm not quite aware as to how we'd do that, but I'd assume someone here would. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:59, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the traceroute and geolocate info for known IP addresses, he's on AT&T, between Kutztown and Philadelphia. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll stop now, you don't have to report. 166.171.57.248 (talk) 04:12, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

You've given us no reason to believe you, and plenty not to. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:21, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support Community Ban - Enough is enough, and this is way overdue. I also support real world remedial action including contacting authorities as suggested. Jusdafax 05:27, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support action per Ian.thomson. Enough is enough. Blackmane (talk) 05:52, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban and inclusion at Wikipedia:Long-term_abuse as well. What a sad waste of time. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:30, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban and whatever other actions we can take - I'm tired of removing his f*cking ceiling fan videos. Thomas.W ^talk 11:59, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• I support contacting his ISP. To the people supporting a community ban: formal community bans of notorious long-term vandals aren't needed. A situation where somebody is indefinitely blocked and no admin would unblock is a de facto ban, compare WP:BLOCKBANDIFF. Not sure about creating a long-term abuse page for him. Building monuments to trolls should only be done when absolutely necessary. They like it. Bishonen | talk 13:06, 4 November 2014 (UTC).
• Support community ban, if only to make it official and reduce the scope for any further chicanery so that new socks can be shot on sight. I'm agnostic about reporting to his ISP; usually my experience offwiki has been that ISPs don't actually give a hoot if the action being taken by their user isn't illegal. As irritating as this individual is, I don't think that it's at the point where we'd get law enforcement involved. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 13:20, 4 November 2014 (UTC).
• (edit conflict) Support community ban, listing at LTA, and contacting his ISP, per all of the above. The situation is a de facto ban as Bishonen described, but it's still a block, and the hope with blocks is that the user will reform and come back as a good editor, even with indefs via the WP:STANDARDOFFER. There's every reason to expect that this user will never reform, so our strongest sanction (formally kicking them out) is warranted even if it is a formality at this point. Ivanvector (talk) 13:28, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban - Makes sense, if this is truly the extent of his "contributions". Sergecross73 msg me 13:34, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban - A complete time suck for other editors. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:12, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support ban and LTA, and perhaps contacting the ISP. Origamite^ⓣⓒ 14:33, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban and attempt ISP contact (though it'll probably end up buried by them nonetheless). More making it official than anything, they've already got a de facto ban and only the most naive of souls would dare to give them any editing responsibility. Nate • (chatter) 15:15, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban - enough is enough. Noteswork (talk) 15:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban and contacting his ISP, I have enough vandalism to clear up without having to remove ceiling fans. Amortias (T)(C) 18:20, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support AT&T must receive a LTA report and a site-wide autoblock should be issued. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 18:21, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Probably a terrible idea, feel free to ignore. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

In case AT&T makes it clear they're not going to do anything, would it be possible to range block AT&T dynamic IP addresses from Kutztown and Philadelphia, and leave a message for such IP addresses saying "please contact AT&T at (phone number, email address, etc) about David Beals's vandalism"...? Possibly the same sort of methods we use for some open proxy IPs? If so, we have leverage if/when we contact AT&T about Beals, and will establish to other ISPs that they need to listen when we ask them for help. Not that we'd bring it up first thing, just if they don't want to help us. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC) @Ian.thomson: I think we shouldn't do that, since that could cause damage to the project by deterring helpful IP contributors, not to mention it'd basically be a concession of defeat to this vandal/troll. Not to mention he could just go to a public library and add ceiling fans from there or something. --Richard Yin (talk) 21:13, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support community ban Contact At&t per above, this user is clearly WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:01, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban and attempt ISP contact. Per the above. Epeefleche (talk) 20:24, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban & contact the ISP as as everyone's said Enough is enough!. –Davey2010 • (talk) 20:59, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban, ISP contact and a side order of eternal damnation! Favonian (talk) 21:06, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban. Also try to contact the user's ISP. We should contact AT&T to see if access to Wikipedia pages can be denied for this user. – Epicgenius (talk) 21:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support both the ban and contacting AT&T. Much as we all like ceiling fans during the summer, I think this has gone on for long enough. ansh666 00:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• I'll make you a deal After seeing this, I decided to stop adding videos and images. Just wait until I continue before contacting ISP. 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Why should we? You've repeatedly shown us no kindness, nor given us any reason to trust you. Right now, you're not even giving any indication that you actually have any remorse for your actions, but are just trying to avoid trouble on your end (trouble you brought on yourself). Ian.thomson (talk) 03:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I decided to stop, because I've seen people saying about ISP. I'll wait like few month, then apologize what I did, then try to edit again. 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:40, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

No, we don't want you here at all. You've used over 70 accounts to make clearly disruptive edits, and have made personal attacks against the people cleaning your mess. Your options are:

1) You leave, and don't edit here ever again.

2) We contact AT&T and get them to make it so you can't edit.

Ian.thomson (talk) 03:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

This is totally rude what you said. After reading about what you would do, I absolutely never do any bad edits again, ever. 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support community ban, no deals. ... discospinster _talk 03:21, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• That's rude. If you had just given me a warning about ISP and community ban, I would have stopped. Please do not support ban until you see my vandalism edits after 3:28 November 5, 2014. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:29, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

You've had dozens of accounts warned and blocked. No sane and honest person could pretend they didn't get the message to stop from that. Do you have any reason why we shouldn't contact AT&T? Ian.thomson (talk) 03:41, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I did get warning about getting blocked, but didn't get any about ISP. My reason for not contacting AT&T is that I noticed it, and decided to stop it. How many months do you think I should wait before apologizing and try to edit again? 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Im wondering here how many of these "Last chances" you got. You would think that after having an account blocked for socking one would get the message but you made what... dozens more accounts? You really need to open your eyes if you don't realize why people don't trust a word you say. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:54, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I know I got some, but after reading about contacting ISP, I have decided for real that I will absolutely never do vandalism edits, ever again. 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:56, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Some? You had over 70 accounts blocked. If AT&T can't block you from editing without completely blocking your access to the site, then good riddance. Your continued vandalism shows that you don't care about what's good for the site, so why should we care about you having access?

How is not knowing that we could contact your ISP an excuse? How is it any different than us having to block you over 70 times? You had over 70 opportunities to start over and not be a total screw up, and you chose to engage in vandalism and personal attacks with every account you made an edit with.

You do not get to come back here to apologize, your options are:

1) Leave the site alone and never edit again.

2) We contact AT&T and ask them to institute a block on your end.

Either way, you don't edit ever again. You've proven you cannot be trusted to behave maturely, honestly, or rationally. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It is different from blocking because I especially wouldn't want to get in trouble with ISP. Can you stop acting like you're an Admin? 166.170.34.116 (talk) 04:03, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

So you don't have any remorse for your actions, you just don't want to get in trouble with your ISP? How does that benefit the site? At no point have I pretended to be an admin, I'm merely echoing the clear support above for the community ban. You are not welcome here. If we had some indication that you regretted your childish behavior, I'm guessing more people might consider letting you voluntarily leaving the site without us getting AT&T to block the site on your end. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:10, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

(EC) Get the hint and clear off, In the nicest way possible - No one wants you here, You've been given chance after chance and now it's becoming a joke, Someone here will contact your ISP so if I were you I would simply go away & find another hobby!. –Davey2010 • (talk) 04:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

About me saying about you acting like an admin is that you said that I'm not welcome ever again. You can't decide that, when you're not an admin. It's not fair, good edits are better than no edits. And I would like to apologize for what I did, and will absolutely never do it again. 166.170.34.116 (talk) 04:16, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I didn't decide that: everyone else did. Look above, at all the posts saying support community ban and support site ban. Notice that no one is defending you. Look at the 70+ accounts you've created that have been blocked. You are not welcome here. You've shown you utterly lack either the ethical or intellectual capacity to make good edits, and so no edits are better. You are not welcome here, and we do not want you here. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:20, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I have decided to stop editing. Maybe in the future, I might start a fresh new account, that no one will recognize. And I'll try to keep it fresh, thinking about how we talked in ISP.166.170.34.116 (talk) 04:22, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

You and a ceiling fan have 1 thing in common - You both are going around in circles here!, No worries you create an account - We'll recognize you - We'll contact your ISP ... Get the hint. –Davey2010 • (talk) 04:49, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Quite frankly, regardless of what you say now, someone should still contact your ISP. People have been firefighting to keep your crap from WP. From now, it's a preemptive strike to stop any future vandalism. Once you're dealt with from the ISP end, you won't be able to come back as an IP or account to cause any more trouble.Blackmane (talk) 04:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

On fresh new account, I won't post random videos on random articles. 166.170.33.80 (talk) 05:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

That's nice but someone is still going to contact your ISP. Nothing like "the sixth biggest website on the internet need to stop a guy who won't stop posting videos of ceiling fans" to make everyone around feel foolish. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:05, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Nice, and irrelevant. As it stands, there is a very solid consensus to indefinitely community ban you. That means you as a person are banned, regardless of your account. That also means that from whenever this discussion is closed till, pretty much forever, any editor can (and will) revert your edits regardless of their quality without worrying about invoking 3rr. You wore out your welcome a long time ago and now not only is the door closed to you, it's locked and barred shut. Blackmane (talk) 05:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

There's definitely universal consensus for a community ban (whether one thinks there's already a de facto ban or if one thinks we need a de jure ban), and there's plenty of support and no real opposition to contacting AT&T about Beals. I think we've got enough to seal the deal here. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:23, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• If anybody notices any new accounts, it would be appreciated if someone could report them to m:SRG or #wikimedia-stewards as this is a cross-wiki vandal. If you report it at SPI, someone will get to it eventually, but this helps the disruption to be minimized quickly. --Rschen7754 04:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Question: As noted by Euryalus, there is consensus here to contact Beals's ISP regarding his vandalism. Has anyone acted on that? --Richard Yin (talk) 19:14, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

User:AlbinoFerret

This user has more or less become a single purpose account. There editing has become not very produce such as:

• The WHO is to health what the UN is to government, useless.
• And we all [know that you Qack, are the master of ridiculous.]
• They have also been involved in a fair bit of WP:CANVASSING. For example he recently put these notes on a couple of users talk pages requesting their participation [40] and [41] and others. They earlier requested the support of one of these users after having made some controversial changes [42]

Does this rise to the level of a temporary topic ban? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:09, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me? Cherry-picked quotes? And a complaint about canvassing relating to a case where you were remanded for inappropriate notification[43]? This seems more like a play to remove editors that you disagree with, than a true complaint, sorry. --Kim D. Petersen 16:31, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

First of all, let me mention that he requested mere participation not support (except in the last one where he added his own opinion). Doc James, you've been warned for 3RR along with Ferret, I believe this is just not enough for a TBAN. Doc, you're in it too. I believe you all should quit this battleground mentality. A self-imposed TBAN will go a long way. Just my two cents. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 18:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I'm not sure that what is described here is canvassing. AlbinoFerret neutrally notified seven different editors, each of whom had previously edited the page or engaged in Talk discussions and had expressed different views, of an RFC occurring on the page: the two above plus [44][45][46][47][48] This appears to be allowed according to WP:CANVASSING. I don't understand the purpose of this report, especially given that Doc James has already engaged in edit-warring with AlbinoFerret on this article. Ca2james (talk) 20:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

In the very beginning AlbinoFerret only notified the two editors who have the same POV as he does.[49][50] After editors commented AlbinoFerret was canvassing then AlbinoFerret notified the other editors. Another editor stated "Now that I read the discussion, it looks like inappropriate canvassing."[51] The editor was referring to this this edit. QuackGuru (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

There was a 10 hour difference between when the first two editors were notified and the other five were notified. Does that qualify as canvassing? I wouldn't think so but perhaps I'm wrong. If the post on the village pump is considered canvassing (is it? I don't know), then bringing it up now, a week later, seems a little late. Ca2james (talk) 21:48, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussions were long that day and I needed some sleep, there is no time limit on when editors need to be notified by, I got up and notified others. But even if I only notified the two editors you point out, they are active on the article and had both edited the article. Informing them of the RFC, and all I did was ask them to look at the RFC, is allowed. AlbinoFerret (talk)

I will address all these false accusations.

• The so called canvasing was going back a week or so in history and notifying every editor of the article that wasnt an IP of a rfc. Including ones I knew would probably disagree with my position like Yobol.
• #85 is out of sequence and happened the night before the rfc was made, all I ws doing was asking another editor to look at the edits I had done to see if a NPOV tag/banner she had placed could be removed. This distorting of the timeline to suggest something wrong is intentional. It has been pointed out the Doc James before. As such it, in my opinion the retaliation is a continuation of the war Doc James was warned to stop but has not. These accusations were addressed in the report on Doc James linked to here. I was warned for edit warring, resuscitating them here is a desperate ploy.
• My opinion of the WHO (World Health Organization) is just that my opinion, and I have a right to it. The WHO is treated like some kind of God on the article. While he has me saying my opinion of the WHO on a talk page, he doesnt have diff's of me removing statements of the WHO from the article.
• The third was a sarcastic response to a well known edit warrior QuackGuru with a long ban list history calling the additions of another editor ridiculous.

This is just retaliation for bringing a charge of being involved in an edit war on Doc James. Perhaps its time for a boomerang. AlbinoFerret (talk) 19:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I still think the two tags are unnecessary. You disagree? You restored the tag of shame to the lede without explaining what is wrong with the lede. Please explain what is wrong with the lede or remove the tag from the lede. QuackGuru (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

That tag was placed by Kim, you removed it with an open RFC on it, that is still open. I replaced it because it is the subject of an open RFC. AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:53, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

You haven't shown what is the issue with the lede and yet you want to keep it in the lede? QuackGuru (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

It would be wiser to keep content related stuff to the article talk page. --Kim D. Petersen 21:03, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes it appears that a few editors want to exclude the position of the World Health Organization and a review article published in Circulation (journal), one of medicines most respected journals. They instead wish to replace these with the position of a single author review published in a 1 year old journal with an impact factor of zero.[52] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for showing your true motivation, a conflict over content, and silencing those that disagree with you. The boomerang should hit hard AlbinoFerret (talk) 22:37, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I am sure it will. My motivation is to accurately reflect the best available sources. Personal attacks are unfortunately becoming more common [53] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you proved personal attacks are becoming common by coming here. AlbinoFerret (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry Doc, but do you really think that fighting over content issues is appropriate for AN/I? Noone - None - Zip - Nada persons want to "exclude the position of the World Health Organization". The issue over a particular conference report from the WHO is significantly more complex than should be dragged out here, and certaintly not by misrepresenting peoples views. --Kim D. Petersen 23:16, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

While we have this comment The WHO is to health what the UN is to government, useless, which sounds like a desire to exclude the WHOs position IMO. If some come to the discussion with this perspective it makes it difficult to edit health related content. And than we have the personal insults. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:18, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yep, that sarcastic comment, at a person who made a negative comment on another editors edits using the same word. Who has been pointed out a few times for disruptive editing of the article #1 #2. Where can we find the entry on this page from you for QuackGuru who shares your point of view? Nobody has tried to remove the WHO from the article. There is a report they commissioned, that is used 36 times, its use needs to be scaled back, but its used more and more.AlbinoFerret (talk) 23:57, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Let's note one thing. Doc, you've accused him of being an SPA, which I believe he is not. But the fact that he's made 786 (take away or give a few, I used Ctrl+F on his contribs) edits to E-cigarette related stuff is disturbing. And unless, he's been factually incorrect, has failed to maintain a NPOV or has some kind of a COI, there's really no problem if this is a SPA. Doc, you're certainly involved and the fact that you've not taken any actions is an excellent thing (in fact, if you felt you've been wronged and you came to ANI for that, it was a perfectly fine decision). Note to all: Please refrain from making personal attacks. It can be grounds for harassment. It's also time to quit all of your battleground mentality. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 13:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I just want to comment on the number of edits. I rarely make single edits and leave. A majority of the time typo's, extra spaces, justification problems, and syntax errors pop up because the wysiwyg editor doesnt work quite right on my distribution so I edit source most of the time. I will add a word because it doesnt read right, or after reading the paragraph move the addition to group it. It usually takes about 5 or more edits on something before I'm done, even on talk pages. If you divide that number by 4 or 5 its not that bad. While its still over 100 it isnt that bad on an article that is constantly changing. AlbinoFerret 17:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Rogue Admin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I am here to dispute a decision made by an admin who proposed a topic ban for me here and imposed it only just 3 days and 0 input from uninvolved editors. The only input given was by editors who have a content dispute regarding Boris Malagurski-related articles, most of which have attempted to manipulate Wikipedia guidelines to remove me from editing and discussing the topic matter which interests me. After numerous sockpupped investigations that attempted to prove I was Boris Malagurski or working for him (and in the end it was concluded that I wasn't, of course), now, one administrator, Ricky81682 has banned me from editing Malagurski-related articles, with the support of a few editors who have been out to get rid of me for quite some time now, all because I'm not anti-Malagurski like them and have followed Wikipedia guidelines in regards to editing and sourcing. I would like a second opinion from uninvolved editors and request a lift of the ban imposed on me, as it had immediately been used by one user who was swift to support the ban, Pincrete to quickly shape the Boris Malagurski, The Weight of Chains and Kosovo: Can You Imagine? articles (all Malagurski-related) in a way that pleases him (all on issues where I disputed his POV). They were all waiting for me to be banned, and now they can do what they like, as I was the only neutral editor pressing for neutrality. --UrbanVillager (talk) 17:01, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Without any comments on the legitimacy of the claims for or against UrbanVillager, am I the only one uncomfortable about imposing a community topic ban based on the input of three editors? Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:06, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• All it takes is one admin to indeff someone, but to answer your question: no, you are not the only person who thinks this not the best way to run an online community. I don't think any bans should be enacted by just one or three people, but that's how it works around here and good luck trying to change anything. I.e., admins want it this way, and they will close ranks to protect their near absolute powers. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Agreed. The 'process' (three ANI comments then a topic ban) doesn't seem fair or reasonable. AnonNep (talk) 17:35, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Absolutely inappropriate for an WP:INVOLVED admin (per [54] [55] [56]) to be imposing community sanctions like this. Support immediate reversal of ban, but no prejudice against uninvolved admins reviewing the discussion. Ivanvector (talk) 17:36, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Without regard one way or the other on the merits of the case, it should be reopened to seek additional input. Three people is far too few to determine a consensus in matters such as this. Otherwise, no opinion with regards to the merits of the case, or the admin who closed the initial discussion. Just reopen the discussion, and wait for a more broad consensus to develop. --Jayron32 17:37, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• The topic ban chould be vacated and the discussion reopened. An admin that one month supports] a topic ban and then a month later closes a discussion and establishes a topic ban against that user is patently wrong. GB fan 17:48, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• What Jayron32 said. Processes have to be open, fair and transparent. Best solution is revert the close (and findings) and reopening this to let it run to a more natural conclusion. Dennis - 2¢ 17:52, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: since there has been an accusation of anti-Yugoslav bias in the previous discussions, are these articles considered to fall under the discretionary sanctions for articles relating to the Balkans? Ivanvector (talk) 18:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

In my view, yes, so I added the warning to The Weight of Chains at least. If people think so, it should be added to the filmmaker (the breakup is his topic) and to his films on the subject. The talk pages reflect users going on about the general issue of the breakup and the region. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:54, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Per Jayron32, this closure should be reverted if the admin already participated in support of the ban (which will probably result in resumption of discussion where it was left or reclosed by some one uninvolved). Appropriate warnings should be given too. Although the consensus may support the ban anyway; it does, however, need re-evaluation.--lTopGunl (talk) 18:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Reverted I reverted the closure. Please discuss the merits of a topic ban itself above. Based on This and this, it is clear that Ricky81682 is heavily involved in editing disputes with UrbanVillager and should not ever take administrative actions regarding him.--v/r - TP 18:20, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Aw, now you've done it. We can't hold one of our own to any sort of standards if we want to close ranks and cling to our near-absolute power as described above. I mean, the godlike feeling of power when closing a discussion or protecting a page, you can't endanger that! Beeblebrox (talk) 19:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

It took me a second to realize that was sarcastic. Given the level of dialog on this page it did not seem unrealistic enough to immediately appear sarcastic. Chillum 19:14, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I lifted some of it word for word from the third comment in this very thread. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:25, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

What's nearer to absolute power? Enacting sanctions based on that near-absolute power, or reverting the near-absolute power itself? That like, over 9000 absolute power!--v/r - TP 19:32, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• I don't know much about if he should have been topic banned or nor, but as others have said the admin was clearly involved. That said, it was not bad enough to request a desysop. Still I wish there was a way that the community could censure admins that abuse their tools (a kind of formal statement of disapproval). If you look at any person here, you can look at their blocklog and see every time they were blocked forever. And yet if there is an admin abusing their tools today, by next year people probably wont even remember it occurred (or the same people might not be involved). I guess you can go searching through the ANI archive, but still that doesn't seem quite enough. --Obsidi (talk) 20:16, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
  • In this case, I don't know the admin (never even HEARD the name Ricky81682 before today), so I really don't know if it is a singular slip of judgement, or an ongoing issue. I will assume a singular slip up until shown evidence to the contrary, via WP:AGF, and the fact that if it was a regular thing, I would have heard by now. We all make mistakes and such, I won't judge. To answer your question: If it were an ongoing issue, gather up the diffs and go to WP:AN is a good place to start. All admin are subject to review by our peers (meaning ALL editors, not just other admin). An RFC/U can be done if that doesn't produce results in a reasonable period of time. As Beebs sarcasm indicated, as a group, admin don't all cover each other's butts, like the cop's "thin blue line". Eventually, Arb will hear a case, but they need to see that it was handled down here in the regular community and failed before they get involved. Two are there now, although one obviously doesn't belong there, and the 2nd one probably doesn't. Dennis - 2¢ 00:05, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
    • At this moment in Wikipedia's lifecycle, the efficacy of the RFC/U is disputed; as ANI is not the forum to address that, I'll leave it at that. Editors wishing me to explain further are, as always, welcome to post on my talk page. NE Ent 00:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • That's a bad idea. Such documentation would be used as ammo for every disgruntled user who was sanctioned by an admin for violating community standards. If an admin messes infrequently such that there's not a community memory of it it's best to just let it go. Egregious violations of expected behavior will be called out, often by other admins. NE Ent 00:20, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
    • That's probably a better way to put it. I didn't mean keep a running tab, although it might have looked that way. But yes, we admin really do try to police our own. Dennis - 2¢ 00:23, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• My apologies. My first involvement was at this ANI by UrbanVillager where UrbanVillager had the same issues as discussed above. As stated before, UrbanVillager is a SPA who's entire focus seems to be promoting the work of a single Serbain-Canadian filmmaker's theory on the breakup of Yugoslavia (including starting articles that later add to the promotion). While not focusing on a single article, editing about a particular filmmaker, only their documentaries and only the people interviewed in the documentary over the course of four years are pretty close to an SPA to me. In my view, this also relates to the ARBCOM sanctions on Eastern European articles (the talk pages of the editors reflect IP addresses complaining about that angle). At the time, I would consider a topic ban but I attempted to assist instead (obviously an extraordinarily poor idea) and following the attacks at Talk:The Weight of Chains and now specious sockpuppetry reports against all other users, I instead opened it up for suggestion again. Given that I opened the discussion, it was in poor taste to close it myself and I'll leave it others to comment. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:40, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

  As long as understand the reason for the concern, and understand how to avoid it in the future, I don't see a need to flog you at this time. Dennis - 2¢ 00:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I'm coming up on nine years as an admin (and it's a good sign I'm not actually well known). It comes with the territory. I'm sure I'll be flogged again for something else soon enough. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I get flogged regularly, but I'm a glutton for punishment, it would seem. Dennis - 2¢ 01:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

As an admin, if you're liked by everyone, you're not doing your job right. Blackmane (talk) 04:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't get this All SPAs are bad concept. Come on, this is not some satanic cult promoting their ancient religion of Sabbatic craft. It's simply a user who is interested in editing a specific topic. Unless the user displays really poor knowledge of policies, has COI or fails to maintain NPOV, he shouldn't be classified as a bad SPA. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 13:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:HOUND & WP:DE by IP range

WP:DE behavior in reverting edits while tagging as vandalism, and WP:HOUND activity specifically targeting my edits. Behavior is exampled in multiple similar IP addresses:

• 85.255.232.198 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.232.213 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.232.214 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.232.216 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.232.217 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.233.108 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.234.33 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.235.79 (talk · contribs)

The IP user(s) continue to revert edits and tagging original edits as possible vandalism. User(s) are likely experienced WP editors based upon these talk page comments: [57] (responding to WP:HOUND allegations), [58] (knowledge of WP guidelines re: copyright). With one exception, IP user(s) are not targeting edits of users other than mine.

IP user(s) claim edits being reverted are "potential vandalism"; however, reversions have not been followed by warnings on my talk page or WP:ANI (per guidelines in WP:R Van), although WP:DE/WP:HOUND behavior continues despite welcome messages & warnings on IP users' talk pages. AldezD (talk) 19:58, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

AldezD continues to edit without leaving an edit summary (contrary to WP:FIES which points out that such edits are likely to be reverted as there are fewer reasons to assume good faith). Not leaving an edit summary is a frequent symptom of vandalism and such edits can be reverted as such. AldezD is also liar because has been requested twice on his talk page to leave an edit summary when he edits so that others have some sort of clue as to what he has changed (here and here both deleted without comment - often the sign of a problem editor). AldezD complains that discussion is not left on his talk page, but it is he that has made it clear that he is not going to discuss anything by summarily deleting any attempt at doing so. Yet he continues to refuse to leave a edit summaries. AldezD claims Hounding but he has not been singled out. I revert other editors who will not conform to Wikipedia's requirements and policies. Since he cannot know what other IP addresses my ISP decides to allocate to me, he cannot know how many other editors are not following policy that I (and several other editor's) are attempting to enforce policy.

AldezD has also not followed policy and procedure as he has failed to notify any of the above IP addresses of this ANI and it should therefore be closed on that ground alone. Leaving 'welcome' messages on talk pages for what is obviously a dynamic IP address (over which I have no control) is pointless as I will never be aware of them.

It's always interesting how the user not following the policy claims to be the aggrieved party. 85.255.233.123 (talk) 12:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Generally, before we revert an edit for not having an edit summary we read the edit in question. Don't revert if you can't be bothered to actually look at the edit to see if it's legitimate or not. "Fewer reasons to assume good faith" does not equal "no reason to assume good faith." We are here to build an encyclopedia, not a bureaucracy. --Richard Yin (talk) 15:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm tempted to delete 85.255.233.123's contribution above as s/he did not leave an edit summary for even one of the eleven posts it took. NebY (talk) 15:15, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• "AldezD is also liar"—Personal attack and futher WP:DE by IP user.

Statement of fact. AldezD claimed no comments had been left on talk page. Not true as comments left were linked. 85.255.233.123 (talk) 16:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• "AldezD claims Hounding but he has not been singled out"—Please review IP users' edit histories; with one exception, all reversions within past few weeks are of my edits.

That would only be reviewing the edit histories of those IP addresses that you have provided. You would also need to review all those that you have not provided. Oh, but you have no idea what they are, do you? 85.255.233.123 (talk) 16:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• IP user has clear understanding of WP guidelines, but fails to follow steps to create an account, yet continues WP:HOUND and WP:DE actions. Is the behavior of using multiple unassigned IP addresses a duck of another user account block? Can an admin WP:CHK the IPs listed above?

Now we are clutching at straws. I am under no obligation to create an account and am perfectly entitled to edit from an IP address. I have enough account names and passwords to keep track of without unnecessarily adding to them. Feel free to check the IPs. You should not find any link to any named account (though it is not impossible that the IP address has been used by some unrelated account holder). 85.255.233.123 (talk) 16:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

AldezD (talk) 15:51, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

And if you are threatening to delete my contribution because of a lack of edit summary then 1. Edit summaries are only mandated for article edits. Few editors leave summaries at talk pages and project pages. 2. You would also have to delete AldezD's response above because he did not leave a summary (or indeed for the original post). 85.255.233.123 (talk) 16:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I was going to ask where the restriction to article edits can be found in the recommendation for the use of edit summaries, because I can't find it at WP:FIES which was the link which the IP provided earlier. I notice, however, that the IP has now been blocked, so won't be able to reply until the block expires. David Biddulph (talk) 17:15, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh yes I can reply. You didn't read WP:FIES very well. WP:FIES states "It is considered good practice to provide a summary for every edit ...". Edit implies editing an article. This for instance, is not an edit but a post to discussion, therefore no summary required. Or maybe it's just too ambiguous. 86.153.28.37 (talk) 17:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Firstly you are reminded that to use a different IP address to evade a block is sockpuppetry, and secondly I see no justification whatsoever for your interpretation. --David Biddulph (talk) 18:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I have not used a different IP address 'to evade a block'. I used a different IP address because my ISP forces it upon me. In fact, until I noticed it in the above, I didn't even know that the last IP address had been blocked. You need to notify me somewhere where I will see the block (i.e. At the next allocated IP address). Looking at the vast numbers of editors who do not leave edit summaries at talk pages, it would seem that my interpretation in more readily accepted than yours. This is especially the case when the ability to leave an edit summary is not always offered (e.g. When creating a new discussion on a talk page etc. etc.) 85.255.232.78 (talk) 18:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I have blocked the latest IP, Special:Contributions/85.255.233.123, for harassment and trolling as displayed here in this thread. Needless to say, AldezD: you of course should in fact make it a habit to use edit summaries in the future. Please do. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

(Uninvolved observation) While not wanting to comment on the specific content of this ANI, I would like to make these observations.

Reviewing edits that are made to articles where an edit summary has not been left takes unnecessary time (especially when Wikipedia is having one of its many off moments and hangs while you are waiting for anything to happen - a frequent occurence).

Some of these edits are made in good faith but, in my experience, the majority are usually non-constructive in one way or another.

The solution to this matter is very simple. Always leave an edit summary when you make an alteration to an article. This is nothing more than a courtesy to other editors so that they can get an idea of what you have changed and make a decision as to whether it is worth reviewing (and if the edit summary is apposite, it is usually not worth reviewing). Further: it is not in any way time consuming to add such a summary.

Nearly all good faith editors seem to have no problem with leaving summaries, so I am curious as to what objection the OP has to doing so (If that is indeed what this is all about). –LiveRail < Talk > 17:20, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The objection wasn't to the process of leaving an edit summary, it was to the hounding behavior by the IP user. I have been (mostly) faithful in leaving an edit summary since the behavior by the IP users started, but sometimes click save before entering a summary. I plan to pace myself a bit slower to ensure an edit summary is left for future edits. AldezD (talk) 17:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Additional edits to this discussion by same user with another similar IP (85.255.232.78 (talk · contribs)), in an attempt to WP:BE the block on 85.255.233.123 (talk · contribs). This user is providing no constructive contribution and instead continues WP:DE/trolling. Can a range block be applied? The user's behavior and comments here show a lack willingness to edit constructively and still show a pattern of WP:DE/trolling. AldezD (talk) 18:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Further examples of the IP's WP:DE, apart from the blatant socking to evade the block, can be seen at User talk:Wtshymanski where the IP believes that he/she understands the rules on copyright violation better than Moonriddengirl (laughably suggesting that MRG "does not understand the complexities of the copyright situation"), and the IP in its various incarnations has been edit-warring on the topic. Not surprising, Wikipedia:Merging agrees with the advice of Moonriddengirl. - David Biddulph (talk) 19:37, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

@David Biddulph: Having merged the occasional articles myself in the past, this aspect of the discussion caught my attention. I post as an oridinary uninvolved editor who tries his best to follow the policies and procedures. If I understand things correctly, Moonriddengirl was saying that adding the links to the talk page was 'best practice' and that it was also necessary to provide a link to the source article [of the merge] in the edit summary (though it was wordy and capable of misinterpretation - I had to read it three times). Have I got it right so far? It is clear from the current discussion on Wtshymanski's talk page and in previous discussions on the same page that Wtshymanski has interpreted Moonriddengirls's post as saying that only the link in the edit summary is required and not the tags on the talk pages. This is borne out because when Moonriddengirl made the post, she corrected Wtshymanski's merge by adding the link in the edit summary and adding the tags to the talk pages. From this point onwards, Wtshymanski has never added the tags to the talk pages upon performing article merges and repeatedly argued that Moonriddengirl stated that they are unnecessary (which she did not).

David Bidulph in the above post has said that WP:MERGING agrees with the advice provided by Moonriddengirl (which I initially interpreted as being Wtshimanski's interpretation mainly because this was what he claimed). Well: suspecting with that interpretation that I may not be doing it right, I had a look at WP:MERGING. For the benefit of others reading this: WP:MERGING states

Also remember that almost all article pages have a talk page. To avoid losing quick access to that historical discussion, a link to the source article's talk-page should be placed at the top of the destination article's talk-page, such as: Article merged: See old talk-page [[talk:PAGENAME|here]] or use Template:Copied: {{Copied|from=source|from_oldid=source|to=destination|diff=|date=}}

Further under "Perform the following steps to merge an article into another article:" Item 3 on the list states:

Tag the destination page's talk page with {{merged-from|source page|date}}, and the source page's talk page with {{merged-to|destination page|date}}. Place these tags at the top of the talk pages. As an alternative, experienced users can add {{Copied|from|from_oldid|to|to_diff|to_oldid|date}} to both talk pages. Place at the top of the talk pages.

It therefore seems that what Moonriddengirl posted agrees with WP:MERGING. It also seems that Wtshymanski's interpretation of what Moonriddengirl said does not agree with WP:MERGING. This would appear to make our anonymous IP contributor correct (at least on this point if not others).

With due respect to David Biddulph: I believe he has responded to what Moonriddengirl actually said and not how Wtshymanski has interpreted it. –LiveRail < Talk > 15:25, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

LiveRail's reading of MRG's statement is different from mine. I have commented at User talk:Wtshymanski. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David Biddulph (talk • contribs) 18:05, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

@David Biddulph and @LiveRail, your posts appear to be related to copyright policy and commentary by two editors not involved in this ANI, and not the HOUND/DE behavior by the IP user. However, the user's further hostility can be seen in the edit to Wtshymanski's talk page: "I will continue to revert any merge or copy that you perform without properly attributing the copyright owner(s) of the text that you unlawfully plagiarised"—Rather than following WP:BRD or filing WP:ANI, the IP user states he she will continue to WP:HOUND/WP:DE the other editor. AldezD (talk) 18:49, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I was giving it as another example of the IP's WP:DE. Any lengthy discussion of copyright policy belongs elsewhere. --David Biddulph (talk) 19:01, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

You are behind the times. The matter involving Wtshymanski was taken to ANI round about April(ish) of this year. The result of which, he was instructed to add the attribution tags to talk pages when he merges articles. So on that point I have already been declared correct. Your continued sniping is clearly desperate attempts on your part to gain a victory. 85.255.232.87 (talk) 13:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Further hostility exampled in the post above from an additional IP sock of the ANI subject. AldezD (talk) 20:01, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Typical wanker. You've just got to have the last word. Also malicious allegations of sockpuppetry. Provide proof of intent or shut the fuck up. No intent, I have no choice as I have no control over the IP address allocated. But I have already said this now THREE times so that is proof that you cannot even comprehend simple English. 85.255.235.62 (talk) 17:29, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

1. Where is the hostility in pointing out the result of an ANI? 2. Also malicious allegations of sockpuppetry. Provide proof of intent or shut up. No intent, I have no choice as I have no control over the IP address allocated. But I have already said this now THREE times so that is proof that you cannot even comprehend simple English. You want hostility (and god knows you've asked for it). You are typical of many of the wankers around here. You've just got to have the last word. 85.255.235.62 (talk) 17:29, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

That attack is a blockable offense. Meanwhile, what's stopping you from creating a registered ID? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

So I have to put up with malicious allegations yet you seem to think that I am not entitled to respond in the same vein. As for creating account - yet another user who cannot be bothered to read the entire thread before making points that have already been answered. 85.255.235.62 (talk) 17:48, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

If this is an example of the quality of your edits, you might need to take up another hobby. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:41, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Nearly all the IPs above are from the same small range, 85.255.232.0/22. Very few constructive edits have been made from it recently, so I've rangeblocked it for a couple of weeks. 86.153.28.37 is an outlier, and I'm leaving it with only an individual block. Unfortunately I'm not sure these blocks will really inconvenience the individual; one can only try. Feel free to post new IP edits from the same source here or on my page, and I'll see if anything else can be done. Bishonen | talk 22:03, 8 November 2014 (UTC).

Deletion of talk page comment portion without notification

In this diff, User:Alexbrn deleted a portion of my talk page comment, ostensibly to remove a link which he considered to be a copyright violation, without any kind of notification to me or anyone else. WP:TALK#Others' comments says, "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page. Striking text constitutes a change in meaning, and should only be done by the user who wrote it.... Cautiously editing or removing another editor's comments is sometimes allowed, but.... If you make anything more than minor changes it is good practice to leave a short explanatory note such as "[possible libel removed by ~~~~]". Some examples of appropriately editing others' comments: .... Removing prohibited material such as ... violations of copyright."

Because there was no explanatory note or any other notification, and because the courtesy link is needed to help resolve a difficult content dispute, and because we have no way to know whether the link in question is a copyright violation or a legitimate e.g. preprint or licensed author copy, I consider this to be a WP:TALK violation by a user with whom I was recently in a heated dispute. Therefore this seems to me to be a clear case of WP:HOUNDING harassment, and so I ask for an administrator to please tell Alexbrn to refrain from such harassment, or at the very least leave a clear notification whenever he might delete others' talk page comments in the future. Thank you. EllenCT (talk) 23:35, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Though there was apparently no notification that the comment was modified, the link does indeed look like copyright violation. {{Redacted}} can be used to show that an comment has been modified, and there probably should have been some kind of notification or alert. But I don't think removing a link to an apparent copyright violation is actionable. Wiley-Blackwell charges $6 for temporary access to this content, and I doubt they would let random websites host it for free. Editors interested in academic journals can get free access to some of them through The Wikipedia Library. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

How does a copyright violation look any different from a licensed author's copy or preprint? I always hand edit my publication contracts to retain a perpetual, worldwide, transferable right to distribute anything I publish commercially, and most if not all of my colleagues do too. The assumption that a link to external content is any sort of copyright violation without concrete evidence is mere paranoia. But more importantly, the lack of a notification of any sort is most certainly contrary to WP:TALK and the fact it was done by someone with whom I was in a heated dispute a month ago is infuriating. EllenCT (talk) 02:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

This is commercial content not available under an open license. I routinely remove such links from WP as they violate policy ("Copyright infringing material should also not be linked to") and have legal implications. Apologies for not notifying EllenCT however this change made no substantive alteration to her comment. If a user thinks it's okay to link to copyright infringements from WP because they hand-modify their contracts, and that we can assume something's okay unless there is "concrete evidence" otherwise, then I would suggest we've got a problem here.

Add: I see Ellen has now put the infringing link back. Someone should look at this. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 03:43, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I consider it a substantive alteration, as I wrote above. Courtesy links to sources are included when they are available, with the assumption that they are not copyright violations when they are available, just as we make them available to editors at WP:RX several times a day on fair use assumptions. The deletion silently denied the aritcle's editors who have the same fair use right to view the original source the opportunity to read what it says, disrupting their ability to make informed decisions about how best to improve the encyclopedia. I consider the refusal to take responsibility for this willful and silent disruption to be a serious problem indeed. EllenCT (talk) 03:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

IANAL so I'm not going to debate the law. I will however quote you our policy: "if you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. [...] Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States ...". It is possible (but unlikely) there is a negotiated permission between tobonline.com and Wiley. However the material in question is generally only available under commercial terms and carries a copyright statement. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 04:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I don't think this is a case of anyone "knowingly and intentionally" doing anything. The study is linked from this article, which doesn't give any indication that they have permission to host that content. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:03, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the point is made by the policy that this is not just made somehow okay by hand-waving at "fair use". In WP policy terms, EllenCT did re-link the copyrighted content after you had commented that it was unlikely to be free. She had, therefore, grounds for reasonable suspicion of it, and chose not to heed them. The link's there now. That's a problem. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 05:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

sure Alexbrn could have left something like (Redacted) in EllenCT's comment, but to me that would be further messing with someone else's comment which we should do as minimally as possible. He noted what he was doing in his edit note "redact copyvio link" I would note that it was EllenCT who violated our policy, WP:COPYVIO by posting the link and then reposting the link. It is a good thing Alexbrn fixed it the first time. Suggest an admin remove the link, close, and warn EllenCT not to violate COPYVIO policy again. Could take that a step further and make a 24 hour block for EllenCT to reinforce the importance of the policy. Jytdog (talk) 11:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

That "further messing with someone else's comment" is exactly what is recommended by the WP:TALK policy, for which Alexbrn has apologized for neglecting, and which would have made it perfectly acceptable because interested parties could still find the link in the edit history. If the courtesy link is a policy violation, then so is every courtesy link in references to author preprints, and so is every response at WP:RX. That Jytdog, with whom I have also recently been in heated disputes, has chosen to jump in to this with such specious arguments just proves my point that this is WP:HOUNDING harassment. EllenCT (talk) 16:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Look, I came her a few minutes ago, before I saw Jytdog's specious tag-team pile on, to say that after getting a good night's sleep I feel like life is too short for citing misdemeanors, and I no longer want to pursue this. I'm ashamed that I was goaded into further outrage and I refuse to let the hounders get me down. So please close this. EllenCT (talk) 16:24, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I just re-removed the link and notified EllenCT. I hope this was OK. If I'm in the wrong I'll be happy to self-revert. Ca2james (talk) 18:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

@EllenCT: "Jytdog's specious tag-team pile on" ← could you explain what you meant by this please? An accusation of WP:TAGTEAMING is pretty heavy, is that what you meant? If so, kindly strike or substantiate. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 08:07, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Days after my return to Wikipedia after months away, cursing editor returns to bait me

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I've been a Wikipedia editor for more than nine years, and generally well-regarded by my peers, if my awards cabinet is even a small indication. I've tried to get help from admin Dennis Brown, but he told me that since people curse in real life it's OK for an editor to tell me "fuck off" and repeatedly use other versions of the f-word at me.

Back in June, the edit-warring Winkelvi got into an edit-war and used inflammatory language that admittedly got me upset. Both of us were blocked temporarily by User:DangerousPanda, who like Dennis Brown said the f-bombs against me were OK. I understand DangerousPanda may have some admin ANI issues of his own now.

Here are four examples of Winkelvi's incivility at the time, that helped lead to our mutual block:

• "(as if it's any of your fucking business). And if you keep this bullshit up on my talk page, I'll remove your comments as well. Simply because you're starting to really piss me off..." [59]

• Or this edit summary: "now stay away from my talk page and fuck off" [60] Please note this is a personal attack: It's not the adjective form of "stay off my fucking page" but the verb form "fuck you." Why did an admin let that personal attack slide?

• When an editor starts an ANI, he is required to let the other editor know. I had no choice but to post the ANI notice on Winkelvi's talk page. Despite this requirement, this is how he responds: "(→‎ANI: stay the fuck off my damn talk page)" [61]

• We're also required to post 3RR notices. So he falsely accuses me of harassment though according to Wikipedia 3RR reporting policy I had no choice put to post a 3RR warning: "(→‎3RR: already told you to stay the hell off my talk page, this is now harassment)' [62]. Shortly after that, Dangerous Panda blocked him. -

Within days of my return, that editor was back on my talk page to bait me: He could have made his point on the article in question's talk page, but chose instead to come poke me. I responded by pointing to an infobox template that contradicted his assertion and told him to stay off my talk page, explaining I considered communication from him to be harassment. He responded first by bragging about how he told me "stay the fuck off his page" in June, [63] and then began cursing me again with a brand-new "fucking" [64].

An admin who tolerates editors who tell others to "fuck off" is bad for Wikipedia. It engenders an atmosphere palatable only to angry, poorly socialized white guys in their 20s. It's disrespectful and a distinct turnoff to older editors, women, and many ethnic and religious groups, among others. And really: Do we want to create an environment hostile to anyone except guys who like say "fuck off"? To have Wikipedia be a disrespectful, uninviting place except for people like that?

Dennis Brown is OK with that. He told me "many people will occasionally say 'fuck off'," and goes to say that since he uses it in the real world it's OK to do it here. And then he blames me: "If you can't forgive small transgressions, then the internet is a bad place for you." We're not talking about the Internet. We're talking about Wikipedia, where WP:CIVIL is an important guideline. Dennis Brown's contention that anyone who doesn't like being told "fuck off" in a Wikipedia discussion should leave Wikipedia seems remarkable to me. Is that the bar we're setting for Wikipedia behavior? That repeatedly using the f-bomb against another editor is OK? --Tenebrae (talk) 09:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

This permalink shows a section on Winkelvi's talk which you started. That was in response to a perfectly civil section from Winkelvi at your talk (permalink). Winkelvi is not a role model for collaborative language, but the response was perfectly in keeping with the style of your comments. It is never useful to hold a grudge, just forget that someone on the Internet was rude to you last June. Johnuniq (talk) 10:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Are you for real? Let's do this - any editor who tells another editor to "fuck off" and stay off their talk page should consider it mutual.--v/r - TP 20:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Roger that, TParis: if another editor has given you offense and you have asked the offending party to stay off your talk page, then you -- at a minimum -- should be prepared to reciprocate and stay off the offending editor's talk page. To do otherwise strikes me as intentionally provocative and an attempt to continue an unnecessary feud. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:15, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

[Responding to Johnuniq; there were intervening posts] I see. It's my fault he came unsolicited to my page after a lengthy ANI/3RR battle in June that got us both temporarily blocked from Wikipedia. That's a far, far cry from being "rude to [me] in June."

Perhaps I could ask you to look here, look here, and look here ... mutual 3RR reports and an ANI. This wasn't "rudeness" ... this was all-our war between two editors that wound up in two blocks.

After all that, he deliberately comes to my page, when he could have gone to the article's talk page. That is baiting, and it was his deliberate choice.

And he's cursing at me again in November. So let's be clear that we're dealing with an angry, foulmouthed, uncivil person who went out of his way to provoke me simply by interacting with me. Why would a person who curses you, fought you, made (and continues to make) false accusations go to your talk page if not delieratey provoke you. And here's the thing: I can't curse at him, because the admin gives his special dispensation to curse at me. If I told Winkelvi the same number of f-words he told me, I'd be blocked in a second. Why is that?--Tenebrae (talk) 11:25, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• You are mischaracterizing what I said, which doesn't serve you well here. The original discussion is here [65]. Let me repeat. He shouldn't have said "fuck off" and was warned as such back in June. When it comes to random use of the word, not in a personal attack: if you can't handle seeing it in type, then yes, the internet is a bad place for you, including Wikipedia. Wikipedia isn't a swear free zone. We try to promote a collegiate environment, but that doesn't mean we censor people. We do what we can to limit personal attacks, but we aren't going to start blocking people for occasional swearing. It simply isn't going to happen. It is the context that matters more than the words. Here, the sole reason you would have to complain is that he said "I wasn't fucking baiting you, I was trying to inform you.". You are free to call it crass, or try to encourage better use of language (a reasonable goal), but under no circumstance should we block someone who says "fuck" every now and then. You mentioned about how it offends devout Christians and Muslims on that talk page, but our goal isn't to cater to any religion, it is to provide a reasonable environment for all editors, including accommodating and tolerating whenever possible. Now, if he is edit warring or harassing or doing something else, then yes, blocks are possible, but your singular focus on the f-bomb is bordering on obsession. Dennis - 2¢ 12:08, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Concur, it's not a fair witness description of Dennis's statements. NE Ent 13:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I think it's entirely disappointing that both of these reliable editors are involved in such a thing as personal attacks and incivility. I don't think that cursing has any room on Wikipedia and believe me there have been many times that I would have loved to have told someone to fuck off but didn't. There is nothing on Wikipedia that can't be settled with just discussion, even heated, and consensus. I don't know the whole story and there is always 3 sides to every story, yours, theirs and the truth, but I think this just needs to stop. The edit in question of Winkelvi "baiting" Tene was Tene removing an IPs edit saying that Sebastian Stan and Chris Evans were married. Clearly they aren't. Clearly this is someone who is a fan of The Winter Soldier and wanted to make a silly edit. Wink's response on Tene's talk page, no offense Wink, was a little much. It had nothing to do with the LGBT community seeing as how they aren't a couple and pretty sure neither of them are gay, it was just a fan edit and that whole thing was unnecessary. I would just say at this point, try to stay away from each other, if your paths happen to cross, try to discuss the edit in question civilly and if you can't, ask for other neutral editors opinions. I don't want to see anyone leave. LADY LOTUS • TALK 12:23, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Dennis Brown is correct Wikipedia isn't a profanity free zone but considering the past between these two editors, special consideration should be taken when it comes language. They should know that such language only serves to escalate tensions not defuse them. It would also probably be beneficial if these two don't deal directly with each other and instead first seek wider community support for their rationales when it comes to content disputes.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • If it's profanity in general, yes, it's fine but when it's directed at someone for the use of nothing other than a personal attack or to escalate things, then profanity has no place here. LADY LOTUS • TALK 13:56, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
    • I think we're in agreement here.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 15:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• If Tenebrae's position is "Any communication from you is harassment," they will need to stay clear of any articles / discussions Winkelvi chooses to participate in. On the hand, a discussion of an edit on Chris Evans (actor) is best made on Talk:Chris_Evans_(actor), and I encourage Winkelvi in the future to use article, not user, talk for content discussions. NE Ent 13:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • If the edit was a legit edit that needed discussing, I would agree, but the fact that it was a fan made edit about two actors being married when clearly they aren't, that does not need to be discussed, just removed. LADY LOTUS • TALK 13:56, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Concur -- didn't mean to imply a discussion was required, just that any discussion is best made on article talk. NE Ent 14:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
      • Agreed, and you make a good point that discussions need to be made on the article talks not the editors. LADY LOTUS • TALK 14:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
        • These cases are always problematic. I agree that swearing should be held to a minimum, but under no circumstances can we take actions for simple, occasional swearing that isn't calling someone a name, unless it part of a disruptive pattern (ie: happening daily or done just to disrupt). Wikipedia is a worldwide thing, a global encyclopedia. It requires we are all a bit more tolerant than perhaps we would like to be. In part, due to our own cultural biases and what we call "normal" isn't "normal" to everyone else. Also because humans are humans, and sometimes they are annoying as hell, including me. Like I told him way back when and again yesterday, telling someone to "fuck off" isn't acceptable, it is a bit too personal and aggressive. If he makes a habit of it, he will be blocked. If it is a rare occurrence, I would simply warn him, the same as I would anyone else. I tolerate all kinds of stuff I don't particularly like here. So must we all. WP:NPA is the line in the sand, and if someone gets too close to that line on a regular basis, then of course we will deal with it as well. I suggest we go edit articles now. I'm at work, so I'm going to go sell glass tubes of electric sunshine, and maybe edit later. Dennis - 2¢ 14:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
          • "Sell glass tubes of electric sunshine", that sounds lovely. And I agree, warnings should be given, and these two should just go back to editing and try not to interact too much. Cuss in general but keep the "fuck offs" to a minimum. LADY LOTUS • TALK 14:49, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
            • The reference is to indoor grow lights for medical marijuana. —Neotarf (talk) 02:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

• Comments from the accused: First, I think it's important to look at the diffs in order of occurance: This edit [66] prompted me to attempt to inform Tenebrae with a good faith effort that his reversion was questionable and why [67]. The article he edited is on my watchlist, and I was about to deal with a pending reversion there, that's why I knew he had reverted the edit to begin with. I was not hounding his edits or looking for him to create an issue between us as he has implied. After reading my post on his page, his response was to not WP:AGF and accuse me in an edit summary of harassing him earlier this year (which I did not) [68]. He then proceeded to my own talk page and left the following [69] and, after reading a communication between me and another editor, took it upon himself to disparage me at that editor's talkpage here [70]. Ironically, he remembered being told to stay off my talkpage and says any communication from will be considered harassment, but he keeps returning to my talkpage to continue accusing me of bad faith actions and harassment [71]. When I went to his talkpage, all I was doing was trying to inform of something I thought he might be unaware of. That's it.

I have to admit I am truly perplexed by Tenebrae's choice to come here after he was told by two administrators (Dennis Brown and Drmies) that doing so would be a bad idea and the fuss he was making about this issue was over-the-top. I am also dismayed at his accusation that my only purpose for going to his talk page was to harass him and "stir up trouble" and to bait him. I could understand him feeling that way if I had been brash, "crass", or rude in the comments I left. But none of that happened. I had actually forgotten about our conflict a few months ago and didn't remember what had occurred until he came to my talk page, brought it up, and made baseless accusations and personal attacks there as well as in the edit summary he left when deleting my comments. I had stated on Dangerous Panda's talkpage that even after this episode, I'm willing to bury the hatchet and let bygones be bygones - to edit in the future with him collegially and peacefully. I further wrote that I hoped he could see his way to turning the clock back on all this and forgetting his grudge against me. He read my attempt at an olive-branch, responded nastily with more accusations, and then came here. But he didn't just come here. He then also went on a support canvassing campaign here [72], here [73], here [74], here [75], here [76], and here [77].

In conclusion, I can't see why I should receive any warnings for anything as some here have suggested. My initial contact with Tenebrae was totally in good faith. I did not "brag" about the incident(s) between us back in June as he claims. The negative picture Tenebrae is attempting to paint of me is from six months ago, not now. If anyone should receive a warning it should be Tenebrae for wasting the community's time on this report/complaint as it is more about Tenebrae wanting to see me punished for something I said/did 6 months ago and the fact the he still hasn't gotten over it. Look at the diffs above: Tenebrae is the one who is looking to cause trouble for me, not the other way around. I can't stress more that when I went to Tenebrae's talk page it was completely in good faith. Please note, the tension and drama only started when Tenebrae reacted as he did, not before. That reaction continued for post after post on my talk page and at post after post on the talk pages of others. There, he continued his over-reacting and accusations, doing everything he could to relive our contact 6 months ago (he's doing it here in the initial report, too) as well as his editing block (which was longer than my own, and I think that is what really rankled him and kept him away for months on end). In the future, I will now have no problem remembering what happened between us in June 2014 because of this ridiculous mess happening now. That memory will keep me from interacting with him at all costs. Unless, of course, he can finally accept the olive branch I presented him yesterday and leave his near obsessive and vitriolic grudge against me behind. Holding onto it is not healthy for him or the Wikipedia community. As this report has clearly demonstrated. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Coming to my page to haughtily claim I'm wrong about something, when he in fact didn't read the relevant Wikipedia template and was wrong himself ... that's not an "olive branch."

"fuck off" [78] is a personal attack and he got away with it. Fine. Dennis Brown says, Well, it's OK to say "fuck off" if you don't make a habit of it. Yet Winkelvi throws the f-bomb gratuitously again in November. [79] He has done so in every series of communication with me. Is that "repeated behavior"? Tell me, please, how it's not.

Baiting someone and then saying, "Oh, look, he's holding a grudge" is classic misdirection. And another lie. I was not, in fact, holding a grudge. I returned to Wikipedia and presumed that with the thousands of editors here we would never have to cross paths again. He chose to be the instigator. I never would have spoken to him again. So clearly, he is the one who is obsessing on me and refuses to let go, --Tenebrae (talk) 17:07, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I. Did. Not. Bait. You. You assumed that was what I was doing because the lens through which you were seeing me (and are still seeing me) was clouded by your anger and grudge against me due to what happened six months ago. That is obvious by what you posted here [80] on October 22nd: "I've been off Wikipedia for a few months after some excruciatingly frustrating experience with a bunch of trollish Wikipedians, including an admin who says it's OK for another editor, perhaps his buddy, to curse at me and presumably at other editors". You are holding a grudge, and I'm not the only one who has pointed this out. Are you also accusing those who have noted this grudge as also misdirecting?

And, please, stop bringing up the "fuck off" comment as if it happened in the last couple of days. It did not. It happened six months ago. Please let it go and move forward, hopefully by accepting the offer I gave you in all sincerity: to bury the hatchet and let bygones be bygones, edit together in the future collegially and peacefully as well see your way to turning the clock back on all this and forgetting your grudge against me for something that happened quite a while ago. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

You conveniently ignore you threw a "fucking" at me just yesterday. [81] This is a pattern with you, and constant cursing at someone is classic bullying. Oh, and you did brag yesterday about cursing me previously: "And, by the way, I think I said 'stay the fuck off my talkpage', not the version you remember." [82]

Giving an explanation for my absence is holding a grudge? No. If I were to have gone to you or gone to admins to stir things up, that is holding a grudge. And that's exactly the case with you when you came unsolicited to my talk page to claim, erroneously, that I was wrong about something, though Wikipedia template policy does not support you. Coming to me within days of my returning ... that seems like you're obsessing about me, and now you've told another editor on his talk page that you plan on stalking me. There's something quite wrong going on.--Tenebrae (talk) 17:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

"and now you've told another editor on his talk page that you plan on stalking me. There's something quite wrong going on" What? I said I was going to be stalking you, where? Diff, please. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:30, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

"I will need to keep tabs on what you post on talk pages to ensure you are not committing incivility and trying to disparage my name" [83]. So you're going to follow me all around my talk-page posts? All of them? Really? That's stalking.

And it is not the place of even a civil editor, let alone one who curses other editors, to follow an editor around to try to catch him being uncivil. And I never even used your name in that post that advised a fellow editor to ask for proof when another editor makes a policy/guideline assertion — a completely non-controversial piece of advice. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I rightfully stated I would have to start watching your talk page comments for you discussing me and making disparaging comments. I said it because it was clear to me at that point that you weren't going to stop your efforts to see me punished for the transgressions you imagine I committed against you six months ago. And, I note you did more of that today on the same editor's talkpage [84]: "Wow, you really are obsessed with me", "now saying you'll stalk me", "misleading other editors by saying your personal preference is the truth is just wrong". Implying that because you didn't mention me by name exonerates you from personal attacks and incivility just doesn't wash.

I'm done trying to communicate with you here. This whole experience has been beyond frustrating, and frankly, just doesn't deserve any more attention that it has already garnered. Trying to work things out with you while you are in this state of upset is clearly not going to do anything productive. If you want to continue, please do. Because, in my opinion, it only further sullies your "cause" to see me punished. Which is what this is all about. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:48, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

An IBAN would be appropiate, 1-way or 2-way. GoodDay (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

One-way IBANs are inherently inequitable. - Sitush (talk) 17:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

As a completely impartial observer, I saw Winkelvi leave a civil message (which may or many not have been supported by the infobox MoS), and Tenebrae responded with a bit of a temper. 4.34.132.146 (talk) 17:51, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

You would need to see whole backstory: Look here, look here, and look here ... mutual 3RR reports and an ANI. Coming to my talk page at all after that, when he could have used the article's talk page, was a deliberate choice on his part. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:41, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I won't read the entire history, because it seems to be just that, history. While he could have used the article talk page, he left a perfectly civil note on your talk page. You could have ignored it, deleted it, or considered having a rational discussion. Instead you confronted him on his talk page, and now this is happening. 4.34.132.146 (talk) 19:10, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

@Winkelvi: in regards to the "support canvassing campaign", I don't state my opinion in favor of the editor who asked me to voice it unless that's my actual opinion. What I wrote was neutral and not a full advocacy of having you punished. I think that's what Tene wanted was to have people on neutral ground state what they thought. LADY LOTUS • TALK 17:59, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Tenebrae, you have already been told by myself and an uninvolved editor that you are mischaracterizing my comments, undoubtedly with the goal of making me look bad. My comments are linked, you don't need to twist and misquote them. I was brutally clear. At this point, I'm going to recommend you drop the stick. I wouldn't recommend an interaction ban, as currently Tenenbrae's constant hammering in multiple places (I already closed the thread on DangerousPanda's page) has become disruptive to Wikipedia as a whole than the single utterance of the word "fuck" (keep in mind, the other use was in June and was dealt with then). You keep saying the same thing over and over, and you just don't like the answers you are getting there, so you tried here. We aren't a Magic 8 ball, you don't get to keep shaking until you get an answer you like. Ironically, this started over the use of the word "fuck" two times in five months by a user, yet has been used 49 times in this one ANI posting, just this morning, mainly by Tenebrae. It is the very definition of absurd. At this point, I'm going to strongly recommend both editors disengage and do their best to simply avoid each other, because if this cat fight ANI discussion continues, it will end badly for someone(s). Dennis - 2¢ 18:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I never wanted to engage with Winkelvi in the first place, and I will gladly disengage if he will do the same. I will say, however, that since your own actions as an admin are in question, an impartial, uninvolved admin needs to weigh in. That's only fair. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

And it's not canvassing when one doesn't ask for support. A couple of editors are trying to drive me off Wikipedia and my colleagues deserve to be alerted. I asked for no support and said only: "I just wanted to let some of the good and responsible editors here know, and that if they're interested in following what's going on, that's the link." I never asked anyone to comment. In addition, the editors with whom I am collegial are all their own people who would never betray their beliefs, and I certainly don't know what they're going to say. They are hardly puppets, and are outspoken people with a variety of viewpoints. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

For the record, he cursed me with "fuck" or "fucking" four times, not two. I've already providing the diffs. Let's be accurate, please. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:49, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Admins are not classroom monitors, so if someone is merely offended by certain language then I think it is right to dismiss the complaint. However, if Tenebrae is becoming annoyed or distressed at being repeatedly sworn at then maybe Winkelvi could just agree to not swear directly at him, regardless of whether he feels justified. It seems a reasonable request to me, even if you have poor relations with the other editor, and one I would personally strive to respect. Betty Logan (talk) 18:55, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Presumably yours is a response engendered by this? I'm not convinced that Tenebrae has demonstrated Winkelvi has been swearing directly at them recently, so it may not be particularly relevant. Tenebrae is upset and needs to get over it. - Sitush (talk) 19:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• This is part of the "shaking the Magic 8 ball" I spoke of. And yes Betty, but there is 4-5 months between incidents, and the two events aren't the same. That is the whole point, and why I recommended Tenebrae just walk away. Now his disruption includes trying to canvass you for support. Of course, I don't blame you for that, as he deliberately mislead you in his point on your talk page, and again misquoted me. If this continues, I'm going to simply ask for Tenebrae to be blocked a week for WP:DE via not dropping the stick and intentionally misrepresenting the words of others (deception). Dennis - 2¢ 19:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

You're threatening to block me when your own actions and statements as an admin are at issue? How is that possibly just? The Noticeboard is where we're supposed to hash things out. It's up to an impartial, third-party admin to close it. Threatening to block me when you are one of the parties involved ... wow.

I didn't misquote or misrepresent you. Here is what you said [85]: "I'm saying that many people will occasionally say 'fuck off.' I don't remember doing it here, but in the real world, yes, I've told someone to fuck off more than once in my life. Probably once every year or two. Granted, in the real world, when I get fed up, I can be crass, I won't deny it. I'm saying that if it is a habit, it becomes a problem. If it isn't a habit, then it is just a singular rude overreaction."

So it's OK to "occasionally say 'fuck off'" on Wikipedia. So because you use "fuck" occasionally in real life, it's OK for Wikipedians to use it. I'm not misquoting or misrepresenting you.

"I'm saying that if it is a habit, it becomes a problem." Four times using "fuck" or "fucking" in two consecutive encounters seems a habit to me. (The 4 1/2 month difference is deceptive since I wasn't even here for that time. He instigated unasked-for contact within days of my return.)

"If you can't forgive small transgressions, then the internet is a bad place for you." We're not talking about the whole Internet, but Wikipeda, which has a civility guideline. Being told "fuck" repeatedly is not a small transgression. But you seem to think I should take it as that or else Wikipedia is "a bad place for [me]." I believe WP:CIVIL frowns on an editor using the f-word against another editor repeatedly. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:49, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

He didn't threaten to block you. He asked for a block to be considered, implying he will not be imposing it as he is involved. 4.34.132.146 (talk) 19:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, Tenebrae, go have a cup of tea. This is likely to end badly for you if you do not. You have misrepresented, you have canvassed, you are still holding the stick and you have been around long enough now surely to realise that the Civility policy is dead in the water except perhaps for repetitive (as in daily etc) and egregious examples. The "best" outcome for you here seems to be that Wv gets blocked punitively for a few hours by some admin with less than perfect clue, and that won't actually change a thing. Wv has offered a reasonable proposal and you seem not to want to take it. - Sitush (talk) 19:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Tenebrae, you are going on and on and on and on about this. Over and over. Dennis did not say it's ok, just that it's not the worst sin in the world. It just a word, a word many people say when they stub their toe. Logically it should be far less disturbing to "devout Christians and Muslims" than saying, say, GODDAM, which is asking God to consign someone to eternal torment. And yet we generally treat that swearword as trivial. 'Fuck' has no religious meaning at all, so should not affect Christians or Muslims more than anyone else. For the record I think Winkelvi's comment on your talk page was utterly stupid and they should be ashamed of themselves for sanctimoniously insinuating that you were homophobic, un-PC or whatever for removing something so obviously false and silly. Yes, it was provocative bear-poking. But that does not justify you acting as though you are on a mauling rampage and going on and on and on about one semi-meaningless word "repeated" over a space of several months. Working with others is also about letting some things drop to foster useful work. Many times I've decided to let someone else have "the last word" when I've seen a discussion is just degenerating into a pointless tit-for-tat fault-identifying excercise. It's natural to want to "win" or prove yourself "right", but it's not always productive. Paul B (talk) 20:04, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It's hard not to respond to statements like "the Civility policy is dead in the water." That's simply one editor's opinion; that opinion doesn't override policy. Wikipedia:Civility is a policy in effect and I think we're all expected to be civil on Wikipedia.

Sitush is correct in saying Dennis Brown only threatened to ask for a block, not to block me himself. I apologize for misstating. I did not misrepresent any other statement; in fact, I copy-pasted his own words here.

That said, I thank you Paul B for acknowledging the "provocative bear-poking." That acknowledgment and to keep Winkelvi away from ever interacting with me is all I've asked for this entire time. Winkelvi keeps saying I want him "punished." I never said that. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

This is not "culture"; it is verbal abuse. No possible good can come from adding provocative language to a content dispute. Admins should be discouraging this, not making excuses for it. —Neotarf (talk) 02:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

• And when it is a personal attack or extraordinarily harsh, admin do take action. What admin (and non-admin) SHOULDN'T do is be control freaks that tell everyone which words are ok and which words aren't. Admin aren't nannies, school marms or the PC police, we are here to facilitate solutions to problems, which should be in proportion to the problem itself. Dennis - 2¢ 02:11, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, could we have some clarification here?

The editor who is objecting here is a person of long standing who would like to be treated with respect. It doesn't mean they're always right, just that they'd like other people to be respectful; and they're probably open to someone reminding them to be respectful too.

Certainly other people editing this website need the ability to inform us of errors, indicate they are upset, and in some cases tell us to stop communicating with them. We all know that the English language has plenty of ways to do this that don't require swearing at people. And we also all know where we'll be going as a community, if we continue to act like this website is our "Mean and Grouchy Swearing Club" and everyone who doesn't like it should leave.

That said, it can't just be the task of a single administrator alone like User:Dennis Brown to improve the atmosphere here.

We all need to uphold the Aloha Spirit, and find more examples for promoting positive communication styles if we want the site to grow. And if "Aloha" is a little much for some folks, most cultures have some version of "here is how we treat others when we want to show we are friendly and respectful." Pretty often (though not always), you can tell when someone is making a effort to be friendly and respectful with you.

Are the folks in this thread really suggesting that all editors here have to accept people swearing at us, because that's where the community wants to set its social norms? -- Djembayz (talk) 03:11, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

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Request from Gender Gap project to reopen thread

Just to note, an attempt was made by a member of the Gender Gap group to reopen the discussion to allow further participation in the context of their project, where a notification had just been posted. The original closure by Drmies was reverted by Sitush. Both Sitush and Drmies are *involved* in the current Arbcom Gender Gap Task Force case, as is Dennis Brown, who made extensive comments in the discussion. —Neotarf (talk) 17:19, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I reclosed (reverting a bold re-opening) because this was a blatant attempt to hijack yet another drama board thread with what would be yet more of the same arguments. The above discussion related to a specific set of circumstances and neither needed nor should have been subjected to generalised debate about wider issues. My opinion seems to have been confirmed by the fact that I was not reverted and by various people (including regular GGTF participants) who commented in the subsequent point-y thread at WT:GGTF. Neotarf, you are just needling again. Please don't. - Sitush (talk) 21:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion Sitush refers to is titled ANI thread involving respect for women reopened, than reverted back to closed, and the "various people" besides himself are Djembayz, Robert McClenon, GRuban, Drmies, Carolmooredc, Rich Farmbrough, and Eric Corbett. Two of the eight (including Sitush) are women, and apparently, Corbett joined in just to ask, "What's the basis for [the] argument that calling someone a cunt is childish?" How he or anyone else can not see how off-putting this kind of language is to many people - especially women - who would like to edit on Wikipedia... it boggles the mind. That some editors here continue to discount how offensive that language ("cunt," "fuck," and so on) is - is equally unsettling. 72.223.98.118 (talk) 00:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I didn't claim that it wasn't offensive to some people, I merely questioned the claim that it was childish. Eric Corbett 17:03, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not the language of chidren. It's the language of low-lifes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:24, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

You're entitled to your opinion, as are those who might disagree with you. Eric Corbett 17:39, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying it is the language of children??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:42, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

If you take off your blinkers you will be able to see clearly that I was questioning the assertion made by another editor that it was childish. Eric Corbett 20:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• More evidence that the so-called "Gender Gap Task Force" is little more than a wannabe civility police and a drama magnet. Carrite (talk) 16:49, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

  Quite. Eric Corbett 17:03, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

To this observer, the remarks of SitushCarrite - so-called task force, wannabe civility police, drama magnet - provide evidence only about his prejudices. And Corbett's "Quite" says that he shares those prejudices. 72.223.98.118 (talk) 21:30, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

When did opinions become prejudices? And for the sake of clarity, Sitush didn't say what you claim he did. Now who's displaying their prejudices? Eric Corbett 21:37, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Admin decides and then gets involved to support themselves

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Mevarus (talk · contribs) moved Gaza beach explosion (2006) twice in 33 hrs, without proper discussion (the page is within 1RR rule). After the second move, I requested a Move back to revert vandalism. ("Technical request") [86]. Then admin Anthony Appleyard (talk · contribs) contested this rv request, and turned it into a Requested move [87]. However, the admin decided to not revert the vandalism. As is the correct route, I asked on their talkpage [88] about this, to which the admin has not responded.

Then I noticed that that admin had engaged themselves in the move discussion, with the !vote position that they supported the move (they had not reverted). In other words: the admin refused to revert vandalism, and then went into the discussion to support, as an involved editor, their own admin decision. When I discovered this I again went to their talkpage [89], but this too got no response.

I request that the admin is told that this involvement in their own decision is incorrect behaviour. Also not responding to questions asked wrt their admin action is unbecoming for an admin. (FYI, in the talkpage discussion I noted that the editor who did the moves is "gaming the system", and after that the discussion was disrupted by canvassing. So far for rewarding the move warrior). -DePiep (talk) 20:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, what happened differed in some respects from what you have said; for example, Mevarus did not move the article twice in 33 hours, nor indeed in any number of hours: he or she moved it only once. Secondly, the move was not "vandalism": good faith changes which you disagree with are not vandalism. Thirdly, to claim that a requested move is "uncontroversial" when you know full well that other editors have moved it in the opposite direction is absurd. Fourthly, once Anthony had recognised that the move request was controversial, he could have just declined the request, but instead he chose to start a discussion on it, saving you from the trouble of doing so. There is no reason on earth why he should not then express an opinion in the discussion. Not responding to your talk page message is the only aspect of this case where he might reasonably be thought not to have acted impeccably, but we are all volunteers, and none of us is obliged to do anything, including responding to talk page posts. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 20:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Note: Mevarus did not move the article twice, but for some reason only one move appears in the page move log. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 08:35, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

• "However, the admin decided to not revert the vandalism.: I know the rule, but here, obeying it (by moving all those pages to the capitalized forms) would have needed me to make nearly a hundred page moves before discussion could start, and if the discussion had decided on "accept the uncapitalized forms of the names", I or someone would have had to do another nearly a hundred page moves. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Am I missing something here? As far as I can see, we are only talking about one page, not hundreds, and capitalisation has nothing to do with it. RolandR (talk) 01:51, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

• Gaza beach explosion (2006) was one of nearly 100 "revert undiscussed move" requests that came out together in a long list: see Wikipedia talk:Requested moves#A long list of moves that User:Hmains wants reverted. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:52, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

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Legal threat

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Najemhasan added a comment to the Bobby Cummines stating all IP addresses and edits are logged (diff) I'm not too sure if it is a legal threat, however I'd thought I would report it. -- LuK3 (Talk) 20:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Meh. I don't know if I'd call it a legal threat (else the whole WP:ABUSE system might have itself constituted an ongoing legal threat, along with all the shared IP templates that mention abuse reporting). But it's definitely inappropriate and likely merits having a chat with Najemhasan. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It qualifies as a legal threat as wikipedia uses the term, and the guy also boldly asserts a claim of authority due to being closely related in some way. Two reasons to put the guy away permanently. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:55, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I've just advised him about WP:COI. —C.Fred (talk) 21:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It's now marked for a speedy, so it might disappear before the threatener has a chance to squeal. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:05, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Oddly enough, the article has been here for 4 1/2 years. Maybe getting it deleted is what the threatener really wants. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:07, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Both the speedy and subsequent PROD are gone. Besides, User:Najemhasan probably wants to push a POV, not get the article deleted entirely, so the POV notice should be added instead. Epicgenius (talk) 16:54, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Najemhasan has replied to a message at his user talk page where he also left a number of reliable third-party sources [90]. Maybe we can use them in the article. De728631 (talk) 17:50, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

He needs to recant and disavow the threat about logging IP numbers and such. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:38, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

In the strictest interpretation, I wouldn't call it a legal threat (he's not threatening to sue or anything like that), but it is a threat to breach the privacy of editors. In any case, the user in question should certainly redact his comment. --Biblioworm 20:04, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

He should be blocked indefinitely until or if he recants and disavows that threat. That would be the normal course of action. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:19, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

• It certainly has the appearance of a threat, and although it does not explicitly mention anything legal, it could well be seen as implicitly being a legal threat. However, I don't think that an immediate block would be the most helpful way of dealing with the matter. It looks to me like a good-faith editor who sees what he or she sincerely sees as problems with the article, and has tried to deal with the perceived problem, but, being unacquainted with Wikipedia's ways, has done so in a way which is not the best possible. I have posted a message to the editor's talk page, in which I have asked him or her to clarify the meaning of the edit, pointed out Wikipedia's policy on ownership of articles, explained that comments about editing of an article should go in the article's talk page, and invited the editor to contribute to this discussion. I hope that will help the editor to understand better how to deal with such concerns as he or she evidently has. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Personal attacks, 3RR edit-warring and article ownership by user Tharthan

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Sorry, this was mistakenly entered under the main AN, not ANI.JesseRafe (talk) 21:39, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The user Tharthan has been edit warring on two articles, violating 3rr, the first being Yo Edit History (which also included a personal attack in an edit summary) and the second is Erewhon Edit History. I stopped after two edits, but this editor seems to be unable or unwilling to let go of his own prose and style, writing in a distracting and overly-indulgent tone and language (just see his User Page for his manifesto on his affected wordchoice (e.g. he insists "whilst" is perfectly normal for North America whereas every single style guide suggests avoiding it, even for British/Commonwealth speakers/writers, including both while and wiktionary:whilst. JesseRafe (talk) 15:23, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Further, I posted on his Talk Page a formulaic warning about personal attacks (cf. "callow fool") in case he had a history of these and he erased it, which I assume is a user's prerogative to whitewash their bad history. JesseRafe (talk) 15:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

P̶a̶r̶d̶o̶n̶ ̶m̶e̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶i̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶I̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶o̶w̶n̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶k̶ ̶p̶a̶g̶e̶?̶ ̶I have already apologised to you for the personal attack (which I, again, apologise for), explained why I removed the unwarranted template "Welcome to Wikipedia" talk page post, and also attempted to start a discussion with you at your own talk page regarding the issue at hand. However, I was at school when I wrote that post, and now that I come home I see that you have suddenly started a discussion at the administrators' noticeboard of all places over a relatively minor and easily resolvable issue. If you truly thought that it was a bigger problem, it would have been fairer to have started a discussion at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard than to so swiftly take your concerns here.

Furthermore, whilst I do apologise for getting a bit heated up earlier, I would appreciate if you did not yourself act so hostilely towards me.

Finally, I was unaware that I broke 3RR. I was almost certain that these edits had taken place over the period of several days. If I am incorrect on this point, then I sincerely apologise.

In addition, the reason I maintained that we keep "whilst" on the page in question was because it was not confusing, it was the wording of the original writer of that (myself) and it had no real reason to be removed other than a dissonance of style.

EDIT: I have also responded to your response to my response on your talk page.

EDIT 2: Also, I never claimed that "whilst" was common across North America, I merely said that it had use in North America, and it has plenty of currency in my local dialect.

Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 19:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I post this now after trying to have a civil discussion with user JesseRafe at their talk page, but said person seems to have no wish to discuss things civilly whatsoever. They now are making rude statements ("blowhard" being one that they used that actually borderlines on being a personal attack) about my character and my intentions when such information has no bearing on the discussion being had there. I leave things to your decision, administrators, because it seems as if JesseRafe has no interest in coming to a peaceful agreement on this matter. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 22:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Usage note: "whilst" is not used in North America. Those who do not read modem British fiction might not even recognize it as a word. --NellieBly (talk) 01:30, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Tharthan, my intentions and words were clear, I didn't want your whining and excuses on my Talk Page. If you want to discuss "whilst" do it on the while page (as whilst doesn't have one, hmmm, what does that tell you?) as that discussion doesn't belong on Yo, but what does is your flagrant deletion of cited and sourced material for your own unverified etymological musings. As to Erewhon, again you made a unilateral move when there was zero Talk Page consensus, used horrendously unencyclopedic tone in your prose, and just mindlessly revert without even considering you might be in the wrong. Keep those discussions where they belong, I said "leave off" because I find it annoying to have 8 notifications in 10 minutes because some editor insists on both writing on my Talk Page AND not knowing there's a "preview" function (hint: use it). Thanks! JesseRafe (talk) 01:49, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

@NellieBly I have been using it since I was a child and have never run into anyone who questioned my using of it (neither as a child, nor now). In addition, I have talked with many a person who also uses the term. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the exact clarification given to "whilst" by comprehensive and neutral sources is that it is rare in North America, and might be perceived negatively by some. Not that it is not present at all or only as a Briticism. Remember, though, I don't speak for North America or the United States, I only speak for my area. @JesseRafe Frankly, I am tired of this cynicism and name calling. It did initially arise from an already apologised-for (multiple times) personal attack made by me, but now at this point all that's going on here is the uttering of rude comments and hostility for no good reason whatsoever. Choose not to accept my apology if you so wish; I have offered it to you sincerely and as a gesture of goodwill. But if you so choose to think of me as some overzealous editor or haughty dandy or whatnot, please at least stop this incivility.

Switch the pages in question back to your preferred version if that'll satisfy you. I'm not going to fight against your claims. Just please stop this.Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 02:25, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I have never, ever heard a fellow American say "whilst" either out loud or in writing. It sounds like something out of Dickens, a Britishism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:24, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Just because you've never heard the term used doesn't mean it is not in use. And whilst while it's accurate to say "whilst" doesn't have a page, it does redirect to "while" so one can hardly say the term doesn't exist or have use. Chaheel Riens (talk) 15:55, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

When have you heard Americans use it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:59, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Both Webster and the American Heritage have it as "Chiefly British". I learned the word right here on Wikipedia, after almost two decades in the US. Drmies (talk) 18:34, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

So we've established that it's not common in the United States in general. That's great, but I was never disputing that. I'm not really concerned with the (modern) "United States of America". My priorities are in my homeland, New England. Either way, the "issue" in question with my wording on the page "Yo" has been fixed by someone else, to a completely different word. So that's that.

But I'll tell you, it's funny when people notice a regionalism in my speech (which is only natural, since I don't waste my time artificially filtering my speech to comply with biased "standards" like General American or the like). Some regionalisms in my speech that people from outside of my area often point out are how I call a bubbler a bubbler (though I hear that they also call bubblers bubblers in Wisconsin as well, though I can't confirm this), sodapop sodapop, carriages carriages, (Italian) grinders (Italian) grinders, blinkers blinkers, wicked meaning "very", etc. So, yes folks, I speak a dialect of New England English and not some variation of General American. I'm not sure why this would surprise people, considering I come from New England and have such listed on my user page, but whatever. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 19:41, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

"Mandrake, have you ever seen a Commie post on WP:JIMBOTALK"?

So does that mean I can change Yo back into standard English (and again, obviously whilst redirects to while (nobody said it didn't Chaheel Riens) but my point is EVERY style guide calls "whilst" BOTH chiefly British AND argues against its use as it is "considered archaic, pedantic or pompous", which is the main reason why I removed it, not because it was a Briticism. JesseRafe (talk) 19:56, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, bossman, but somebody else changed "whilst" to something completely different already. Probably the best outcome, in my opinion. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 19:59, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I usually try to avoid AN/I. Posting here or the other drama-pages pollutes your Precious Bodily Fluids, far as I'm concerned, but I'll make an exception in this case. Tharthandorf apologised above, contentious issue probably resolved. If the participants are happy with the outcome, maybe we should close this? Pete AU aka--Shirt58 (talk) 08:42, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

On the subject of varieties of English: thanks to Wikipedia, in conversation I now refer to five different codes of football as just "football". (I've recently acquired a taste for American football – I had to lean the rules to find out what @Drmies: was talking about, then found I quite liked it.) And confusion ensues.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I realise the discussion above has been closed, but I see the last post by Shirt58 and have to shake my head in dismay. Shirt58 says "contentious issue probably resolved. If the participants are happy with the outcome" and I see that clearly they are not. After what we all thought was a resolution,[91] JesseRafe decided to change the whole damn thing.[92] Tharthan reverted,[93] and then so did JesseRafe.[94] Perhaps both sides need to go to the naughty corner for a while. --AussieLegend (✉) 18:39, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

On the positive side the conflict is no longer about the word "whilst." On the negative, it remains fairly uncollegiate. Not at the level requiring admin tools, but could do with wider editor input to encourage consensus between the competing versions. -Euryalus (talk) 06:55, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

ElNiñoMonstruo talk page

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Hi, I come here to ask that it is protected from ElNiñoMonstruo talk page, since you're using it for anything, and not this using to request the unblocking of your account. which are also reverted your changes.--McVeigh / talk 12:30, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't get what you're trying to say. Is your native language something other than English? I noticed that the IP mentioned your name. And your writing style almost matches his. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 15:10, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I think the request is for the user talk page to be protected (or talk page access to be removed), as User:ElNiñoMonstruo is misusing it. It looked like this before I reverted, with all those fake block messages added by ElNiñoMonstruo and not by McVeigh. Neatsfoot (talk) 15:20, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

McVeigh's first language is Spanish, as he's from Venezula, and his user page says he was " i was expelled from the wikipedia, for reasons which I will not say for now, I don't need :-)." hmmmm.......looks interesting. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 17:08, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

If you're implying what I think you're implying, why would a sockmaster request that his or her sockpuppet's talk page access be revoked? --Richard Yin (talk) 17:10, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Good hand, bad hand, an attempt to confuse, a form of trolling. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:26, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Looks like McVeigh's English WP user page is referring to his block at eswiki for the socking of banned user es:Usuario:Chema. Interestingly we've had a parallel account Chema (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) who was indeffed in June this year. De728631 (talk) 18:08, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Of interest: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Damián80/Archive. The history of User talk:Chema indicates that Chema was originally named User:Jorge Horan, and the history of User:McVeigh indicates that McVeigh was previously named Damián80 (and before that User:GeorgeMilan). The SPI page says that Chema is the same person as GeorgeMilan. I'm...still not sure what the point of all this is. --Richard Yin (talk) 18:44, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I just came to ask for help, and have made investigate me?, I do not understand what is the reason for this, if I put in my user page I do not want to give details, it's because I do not think everyone interested about my past :O.--McVeigh / talk 19:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

• The accounts Chema and Damian80 are both blocked on eswiki for being abused by the same user. The account Chema (formerly Jorge Horan) is indef-blocked on enwiki as a CU-confirmed sock of McVeigh (formerly known as Damian80, formerly known as GeorgeMilan), who himself was not blocked indefinitely. However, that seems mostly irrelevant to the request being placed here (unless there are socking concerns, in which case WP:SPI is thataway, Robert McClenon).

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Rogue poli-sci class?

Not sure where to report this. A bunch of accounts with similar naming patterns have been making edits to biographies of members of the US Congress. The edits seem mostly well-intended, but are highly problematic as many lack sources, have POV phrasing, and are borderline undue.

Accounts

• Bill922 (talk · contribs)
• Bureaucracy472 (talk · contribs)
• Divided government190 (talk · contribs)
• Government19 (talk · contribs)
• Legislative agenda19 (talk · contribs)
• Public good249 (talk · contribs)
• Supremacy clause399 (talk · contribs)
• Watchdog12345 (talk · contribs)
• Separation of powers643 (talk · contribs)
• Home style955 (talk · contribs)
• Political action221 (talk · contribs)
• Redistricting648 (talk · contribs)
• Direct democracy367 (talk · contribs)
• Iron triangle52 (talk · contribs)
• Ranking member539 (talk · contribs)
• Opinion137 (talk · contribs)
• Necessary and proper917 (talk · contribs)
• Constitution844 (talk · contribs)
• Election294 (talk · contribs)

I'm hoping these aren't puppets of any sort. Many of the edits were made today and on October 30th, so perhaps there is a poli-sci class out there? Anyone know what this is? gobonobo ^{+ c} 20:15, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

To begin with you need to notify each account that you mentioned them here. Next you might try asking them what is going on. GB fan 20:52, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Done. I've also mentioned this at the education noticeboard. gobonobo ^{+ c} 21:16, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

As general information for anyone reading here, Template:Welcome student is ready made to put on talk pages of such editors, and is an easy way of telling them what they need to be told. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:39, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I just reverted some negative BLP from one of these accounts about the personal life of a staff member of one of the politicians that was in no way related to the politician's career. That was the sort of editing about a public figure that could significantly harm the encyclopedia. All edits from these accounts need to be checked again. DGG ( talk ) 06:54, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Neither the usernames nor the edits seem to me to suggest a class of students. It looks to me much more like sock- or meat- puppets here to promote particular political views. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:35, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree that this looks more like sockpuppets or meatpuppets, so I have started Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bill922. Gnome de plume (talk) 13:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I have come across a few more which I have added to the SPI, including User:Veto118 who was blocked for BLP violations so this appears to be block evasion. Gnome de plume (talk) 13:52, 7 November 2014 (UTC) Edit: Actually it's a lot more. There are at least 30 of these accounts. Gnome de plume (talk) 21:33, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

CSD tag edit war between myself and User:Hayatgm

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User:Hayatgm wrote article Javaid Hayat Kakakhail, which I believe fails CSD criteria G11 and A7. Assuming my initial CSD tag doesn't count as a revert, I've hit 3RR; the article's author has been removing the CSD tag without explanation. I believe it was acceptable for me to re-add the CSD tag after its removal, since WP:CSD says that the author of a page may not remove the CSD tag. I've warned this article's author accordingly. Should I continue to replace the CSD tag? --Richard Yin (talk) 20:44, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I have deleted it because it was a copyright violation of this and this. GB fan 20:50, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Restoring a speedy deletion usually falls under reverting vandalism so doesnt put you in an edit war. Amortias (T)(C) 21:51, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

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Inappropriate threatening to "report" users on Talk page

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BeyonderGod (talk · contribs)'s Talk page features the potentially intimidating text: "Please don't leave unwanted comments on my page or you'll be reported." I approached them about reconsidering the message only to have my message deleted. I'm reasonably sure such a message is in violation of policy/guidelines but can't find an appropriate link. If I'm wrong and the message is fine, I'll be happy to provide the requisite trout. If not, perhaps another editor might succeed where I failed? Thanks for your input! DonIago (talk) 21:20, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

There entitled to ask people to stay off there talk page. It looks like theyve decided to capture everyone on Wikipedia at once with their message but it doesnt appear to be policy breaking. Warning can still be posted as can notices so it might just be they dont want a cluttered talk page.(No trout nessecary as was done in good faith, maybe a small Mackerel.) Amortias (T)(C) 21:25, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's against policy but I'm failing to find any common sense in the warning. You've left your message, DonIago, they've deleted it which indicates they read it. Don't let it worry you much. Tiderolls 21:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, thanks. I was mostly worried that inexperienced editors with valid concerns would feel they couldn't approach the editor because they'd get into trouble, not realizing the message is essentially blowing smoke. DonIago (talk) 21:36, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

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Transclusion issue, posting here because it's a very visible page

Resolved

 – Adam Cuerden to the rescue, so this is resolved I think. Thanks to both of you. Bencherlite^Talk 23:59, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Portal:Featured content is the place (directly clickable from every page on Wikipedia, see third link in navigation bar in the top left corner). Something went wrong with the transclusion. See also the discussion at Portal_talk:Featured_content#The_Best_Wikipedia_Has_to_Offer.3F. If someone could solve this quickly that would be great, as that page is featured so prominently. Thank you in advance, and sorry for abusing this noticeboard for something that isn't an admin-issue. But it too is a highly frequented page ... --Sluzzelin talk 23:37, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. The problem with that weekly article is that it was on a very tight schedule: between the list of content finishing and the Signpost's publication was half the time for any other Signpost article. As such, I asked for it to be delayed a week to make the schedule a bit easier to keep up. Portal:Featured content can gracefully deal with no Signpost Featured content section, but a redirect was accidentally left behind when the partially-finished page was moved to next week's issue, which meant it saw the redirect, and grabbed it to publish. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 00:04, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Well-meaning but clueless IP editor

Hi there. Editors working in the area of New Zealand history and the New Zealand land wars of the mid 19th century are currently trying to help a long-term IP editor (currently 122.62.226.243; who often signs messages as "Claudia" so I will use that name and feminine pronouns when discussing her) improve her contributions. Although she appears to mean well, and is certainly widely read in the subject, her contributions are poorly (or not at all) referenced and many are very point-of-view in tone and content. She has previously been mentioned here which gives additional background.

I would appreciate if an Administrator could perhaps take Claudia under his/her wing and help her improve her contributions to Wikipedia. I do not want her blocked but would much appreciate if she could knock off the sort of comments she has made here [95], here [96] or here [97] about editors who have been trying to help her, or about mainstream historians who disagree with her favourite (controversial) historian.

Thank you all for your time. Cheers. Daveosaurus (talk) 06:13, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

"Dinosaur Dave" from Invercargill is the editor who has been previously warned about "knee jerk " reactions to edits. He reverted an recent edit of mine without following any of the normal rules of Wiki. Subsequently an independent editor decided the original edit was fine. Dave made no effort what so ever to justify his "instant delete" whereas I had added good clear, detailed information and references and backed up the edit with further details and background on "talk" of that topic. Obviously he does not think rules apply to him! He has previously owned up to making impulsive emotionally charged edits or responses to edits and was advised by an experienced editor to change his ways. Apparently,judging from his knowledge, he is a very misguided old man.Im guessing he is angry he got caught out! Claudia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 06:31, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

"Claudia" (IP 122.62.226.243) is engaging at a slow-mo edit war at Pai Mārire: See [98], [99], [100], [101] despite an extensive discussion on this in 2013, which this editor has chosen to ignore. This editor is a classic example of a disruptive editor who refuses to accept consensus and insists on inserting POV material either without sources or, frequently, fictional sources. They have extensive form, have previously been banned and frankly deserve a long-term ban. BlackCab (TALK) 06:41, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The point I made was that this is a sentence -the OPENING sentence from well respected source. -You have chosen to go off topic to deflect attention from this point. Previously there was discussion about the name of the organization but no editor raised the point that the leader himself called the church Hauhau. I did not ignore the original discussion-I was part of it. Yes, we reached a good consensus back then but this is NEW information that was not part of the original discussion. I totally reject I am a disruptive editor. This is not a slow-mo edit war- it is trying to get editors to actually discuss the point at hand! My addition is small and does not change the article apart from making it more accurate in a minor but significant detail.Claudia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 07:15, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

A series of reverts by ONE editor of the successive edits of SEVERAL editors, without bothering to discuss it on the talk page, is edit warring. 07:19, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The edit history of Māori culture clearly displays a trail of edit-warring by the IP editor: instead of sensible discussion the IP editor deals out juvenile comments denigrating the intelligence of other editors.[102] This is long-standing problematic behaviour by an editor who refuses to accept consensus. BlackCab (TALK) 07:25, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm a long-term member of WP:WPNZ and I'm broadly in consensus with User talk:BlackCab and User:Daveosaurus over the disruptive behaviour of Special:Contributions/122.62.226.243. I bought the issue to WP:ANI previously (linked to above by User:Daveosaurus) but there was no resolution, and problems have continued since then. Non-local editors should be aware that due to the reconciliation process discussed at Treaty of Waitangi claims and settlements, historical sources (pre-1980s) about New Zealand, and Māori in particular, need to be handled very carefully, even when they appear to be authoritative tertiary sources. Stuartyeates (talk) 07:31, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I recommended that this case be brought here. It has been brought to the attention of this and similar boards several times previously - see the very first link in this thread, and the links within that ref - but no one has come up with any firm course of action. I am running out of patience, but I am an involved party as I have tried to give advice over many years to the parties concerned. If ANI cannot handle this, should we take it to Arbcom?-gadfium 08:03, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

If you think this is a case of long-term edit warring, there should be one or two specific articles where you can document that pattern. If admins are convinced that someone is fighting against consensus, they might issue a final warning. If the person is using multiple IPs then WP:SCRUTINY might also be a concern, though nobody has so far suggested that the use of IPs is deceptive. EdJohnston (talk) 02:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Basically, this problematic editor is in a permanent state of denial. She says above "I totally reject I am a disruptive editor" but the compelling evidence proves otherwise. She has been blocked four times for disruption.

Since she starting editing with this IP she has been taken to task about her editing by users Transcendence, Moriori, Amtalic, Black Cab, Gadfium, Daveosaurus, Drmies, Sue Rangell, Rudolp89, Darkwind, Adabow, DI2000, Stuartyeates, Winkelvi, Mufka, Irondome, DerbyCountyinNZ, Bradshaws1, Epipelagic, Jim1138, Dennis Bratland, JoeSperazza, I dream of horses, Andrewprout and countless times by Sinebot and Bracketbot.

She has been criticised for agenda pushing, OR, ongoing poor formatting and spelling that others have to fix, changing other people’s comments at talk, lack of sources or poor sourcing, edit warring, refusal to get the point, incivility, 3RR etc etc etc. The evidence is there for all to see in her talk page. I agree with User:Black Cab who recently wrote "This editor plays a game of brinksmanship, provoking and taunting other editors while carrying out a deliberate campaign of misinformation and distortion in articles." I also think this comment from User:Irondome was spot on.

Seems to me a one month preventive block would be beneficial for the project, with the proviso clearly stated in the block notice that if when she returns to editing she just once disrupts the project she will be instantly indeffed - no ifs, buts, or maybes. The ball would then be in her court. I am an admin and would block her but might be considered involved. There are other admins here, but also involved. Moriori (talk) 02:52, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

(Link corrupted) What User:Irondome wrote on the user's page was -- "Page stalker here. I have had a run in over the Dieppe raid article in the past with one of you. The one that goes on and on. It is like dealing with a bizarre cluster of multiple personalities. Luckily I never got involved with the ongoing NZ-related pages chaos that appears to be going from bad to worse in absurdity. I watch the related fall-out a bit. Tip. Why dont some of you take responsibility for your statements and contributions by signing in properly. Then you will be taken seriously, and not as a bizarre babble. What is the most scary is that you may actually be just one individual. Oh the horror!. We are all allowed at least one nervous breakdown per life, and you may be having yours if you are one person. No worries, couple of months or whenever then sign in properly. The slate will be clean then mate. One of you might have the makings of a good editor :) Good luck Irondome ". Moriori (talk) 03:04, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

That seems like a good idea. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

IAC legal action again

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See this now deleted post:[103] - should anything be done about the IP? Dougweller (talk) 09:02, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I came here to request action because the message has been restored three times. This relates to IAC LTA. An IAC activist has apparently threatened legal action against an individual connected with Wikimedia India, and a couple of IPs are offering opinions at the India wikiproject—opinions that clearly convey a chilling message including that a certain editor has criminal culpability. The message has been removed and restored and I do not feel like debating the issue with someone who might be another IAC activist, so would an admin please remove the message and warn that it must not be restored. Johnuniq (talk) 09:18, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

122.162.56.203 has posted on several user talk pages. Johnuniq (talk) 09:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

WMF already know about the underlying threat. IAC have been bombarding WMIN for weeks, and have recently up'ed their activity in that regard. Can't say any more here, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 09:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

This is only in continuation of previous discussions on the legal situation under Indian law, triggered by [[104]]. As it involves Wikipedia India community, I've pinged some interested users. 122.162.56.203 (talk) 09:29, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

And suddenly Yogesh Khandke (talk · contribs · central auth · count · email) becomes active. A known past supporter of actions against Wikipedia and someone whom IAC have been quoting. - Sitush (talk) 09:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Yogesh Khandke is a reform slate candidate to clean out the Wikimedia pornographic website. Chapter Elections are underway. 122.162.56.203 (talk) 09:39, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, we can block 122.* for evasion now. I can't spill the beans here but it is obvious given the off-wiki stuff. Probably should block YK also but I realise that might be awkward. - Sitush (talk) 09:42, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for what, Sitush? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 09:55, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Good hand/bad hand. Come on, Yogesh. You've been working up to this for several days. Go sue who you want but don't raise it here. - Sitush (talk) 09:57, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

IP blocked for 48 hours. Yunshui ^雲_水 09:58, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

What did I raise here Sitush? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:01, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:BEANS. Hopefully, someone who is watching this has clue. - Sitush (talk) 10:04, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

So, you're hoping. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:14, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

WMF has been in the loop [105], [106]. 190.201.103.231 (talk) 10:39, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

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User:Joeygreeny

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Joeygreeny has been creating advertisements in mainspace for the past few months. Even after warnings on their talk page, it appears that they are continuing. This is a list of some of the pages created by Joeygreeny that have been speedily deleted for advertising:

• The brand of Acymer (Three times)
• YIDEJIA (Two times)
• Yidejia, a woman's world
• YIDEJIA,electronic shopping platform for women
• What is Acymer?
• How about the brand of Acymer?
• Aedfwe afwea

I don't think this user is here to build an encyclopedia. --Seahorseruler ^{(Talk Page) (Contribs)} 09:34, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

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Inappropriate use of talk page by indefinitely blocked user Alexyflemming

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Alexyflemming was blocked indefinitely on 4 November 2014 for "not being here to contribute to build the encyclopaedia", after a discussion here on ANI, the fourth block in their short career here on en-WP, and has had two unblock requests denied over the past few days. In spite of that they continue posting walls of POV text on their talk page, and have today also posted an entire draft article there, which I see as inappropriate for an indefinitely blocked user. Thomas.W ^talk 14:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

• The draft text has been removed by the user after I posted here, but I still see the continued bickering and POV-pushing as inappropriate, since blocked users, AFAIK, should only use their talk page for unblock requests and discussions directly related to unblock requests. Thomas.W ^talk 14:53, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Blocked users may only use their talk pages for unblock requests? Do you have a citation in policy/guideline for that? --Hammersoft (talk) 16:06, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
• The draft isn't so much a draft, but a copy of the History section of Northern Cyprus. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 16:01, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Doing a cursory review of this editor, I find over 5000 edits made by this editor along with more than a dozen articles created. The idea that this editor is not here to build an encyclopedia appears to be...lacking. I don't want to get too far down in the weeds on this; I really, really, really do not want to review 5000 edits nor get into lengthy debates about the value of his contributions. But, to indefinitely block him as not here to build an encyclopedia is flat wrong. Given what I see, including prior blocks for edit warring and a strong interest in Cyprus related edit warring, I would welcome discussion about a topic ban. But, to summarily block and dismiss the editor from the project? I don't see this as helpful. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:10, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

@Hammersoft: I suggest you look at the editor that is being discussed, Alexyflemming, instead of whoever you looked at, because Alexyflemming has only made 1,324 edits, not 5,000, and has been very focused on Cyprus, with very few edits outside that subject area. With edits that have been very one-sided, often violating WP:NPOV. Thomas.W ^talk 17:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to get down in the weeds on this. I stand corrected on the edit count, but the points remain. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:56, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

They do, when you ignore my reply. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 18:10, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me? --Hammersoft (talk) 18:50, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

You said your 'points remain', without as much as acknowledging my reply to you below. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 18:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

With respect, I was responding to Thomas. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Am I not worth your time? 213.7.147.34 (talk) 19:46, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

• I sent you flowers last week. Didn't you get them? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:54, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

So you're my secret valentine. :-) 213.7.147.34 (talk) 20:57, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

• No, but it is 9 months after Valentine's Day. You do the math :) --Hammersoft (talk) 21:01, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

ha ha, bummer, I've never been good at maths. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 21:06, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I did first suggest a topic ban. Nobody responded, and he was indef blocked some time later. I wouldn't say that all his contributions were problematic, but, from what I've seen, most of them were. Isn't someone who on a pretty consistent basis misrepresents sources to advance his POV WP:NOTHERE? Also, I think it's rather doubtful that he'd be interested to contribute in other areas, so I think, in effect, it makes little difference. Finally, I don't think the topic ban discussion would've gained much traction; it'd be unreasonable to implement a topic ban when there's only like 3 or 4 voices. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 17:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

• What was problematic was the POV pushing and the edit warring. They've been arguing (as far as I can glean from the seriously complicated and unclear walls of text) that they were right about the POV--that is, that there was no POV. Even if that were granted (I see no reason to grant it) they still need to address the edit warring. But, as happens so often, it's a package deal: someone has a POV and is convinced they're right and will edit war (against consensus, against multiple editors) to enforce their preferred version. That is seriously disruptive and until they address that, I doubt that any admin will grant an unblock request. Hammersoft, indefinite is not infinite, as you know, so while an indefinite block appears draconian it's not a death sentence. Far from it. Drmies (talk) 19:29, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

He is still railing for WP:TRUTH: But, being against the mainstream for the sake of being non-blocked is not my way. I can neither be intimidated nor be purchased with warnings, block threats etc.! I say what is true, and in WP I defended and tried to protect the dignity and honor of History! See my 1st unblock request.. He shows no signs of understanding the disruption he has caused. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

See also here where I tried to explain this very plainly. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 20:54, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I saw it yesterday. It was a very well made point but as with every other explanation by multiple editors and in multiple fora it just went completely unnoticed by this user. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:21, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Yup, I think we've said it all ad nauseam (our nauseam, that is). 213.7.147.34 (talk) 22:14, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. This kind of intransigence can be explained in a few ways, none of which is good. It is either extreme POV-pushing accompanied by a righteous attitude which makes him make misleading edits in articles and also make attacks against others based on false premises and without seeing the problems he creates even when explained to him by others multiple times, lack of competence, or problems with the English language. It could also be some combination of all of these. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:43, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I can not help to notice that for a POV-edit war, you need more than one party. I recently made the mistake to stray into the minefield named Cyprus and was soon attacked for choosing the wrong names. That is: Turkish names for settlements in (Turkish) Northern Cyprus. Even if Alexyflemming is POV-pushing, he was certainly not the only one. The Banner talk 00:52, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Here we go again... Nobody attacked you for using a Turkish name. You were reverted 'cause Greek names were the norm till now. You could've discussed the matter like a normal person would, instead of going around making a whole big drama out of it. I mean, honestly... 213.7.147.34 (talk) 01:00, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Is your memory that bad that you already forgot Karavostasi and the history? That is the reason that I have quitted that whole Cyprus thingy, because you two are all that innocent. The Banner talk 01:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I was talking about Karavostasi. Who's 'you two'? 213.7.147.34 (talk) 01:14, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @The Banner: Can you provide a specific diff of a POV-edit war as you describe it? And can you also provide a diff demonstrating how you were soon attacked for choosing the wrong names.? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:04, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

'Course he's not gonna respond, 'cause there was no 'POV-edit war', and nobody attacked him for that. The Banner, you're dealing with real people with real emotions here; will you stop lying about me? 213.7.147.34 (talk) 01:27, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

And there is the attacking behaviour to deflect from his own action. Thank you, mr. IP. The Banner talk 01:31, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

My own action you've never been able to provide any diffs for? Is that the one? 213.7.147.34 (talk) 01:49, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

@The Banner: Get back here and explain yourself. You're not gonna keep popping up causing a stir and ignoring calls to substantiate your claims. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 12:12, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Because up to now, you have ignored my arguments to push your opinions. Wikipedia would be better of with a topic ban for you and friends. The Banner talk 12:14, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

@The Banner: Are you confused about the meaning of substantiate? What you're doing is casting more aspersions. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 12:22, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

LOL, what you say is just WP:IREFUSETOLISTENBECAUSEYOUROPINIONDOESNOTSUITME. Bye. The Banner talk 12:25, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

(Edit from bad mobile interface feel free to reformat) I've never understood the attraction of blocked users talk pages. Isn't the easiest way of dealing with wall o' text is to just not read them ? Unwatch the page. NE Ent 00:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

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Multiple article edit war spanning months by two editors

There's been an ongoing edit war now for months across a number of articles regarding films and actors in India. Two sockpuppet masters have been engaging in this edit war. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wiki-senetor and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Harirajmohanhrm. Despite multiple blocks being handed out now, spanning months, despite extended protection on at least one of the articles in question, the edit war continues. A list of just some of the articles where this has been ongoing:

• List of awards and nominations received by Mohanlal
• Twenty:20 (film)
• RajadhiRaja
• Mammootty filmography
• Lailaa O Lailaa

I have attempted to communicate with both editors regarding the seriously problematic nature of their ongoing activities, to no avail. Today, the edit war is continuing. See editing histories of Harikrishnans, Mr. Fraud and Munnariyippu, all of which are experiencing edit warring by apparently the same two individuals today. They have absolutely refused to give up their edit war and have refused every opportunity of discussion. One could spend days and days and days doing nothing but chasing these two around. I certainly don't have the time for it. I'm open to suggestions on how to proceed, and hopeful others will step in to stop this nonsense. I am notifying both sock masters, but hold little hope they'll read the notifications due to their frequent account/IP hopping. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:20, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

• Anyone have suggestions? --Hammersoft (talk) 15:52, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Code of Conduct / Conflict of Interest

Editor JamesBWatson, aka JamesAWatson aka JamesCWatson (and potentially Bbb23) recently handled an edit for the CEO of WSO2, Sanjiva Weerawarana wherein the Orubel acct had placed ongoing legal issues where Mr Weerawarana had made statements against Mr Rubel's copyright and which Mr Rubel was enforcing and they were engaged in legal issues over. Mr Rubel had claims, common law copyright that predated anything they had, a working project, had done talks and conferences and a pending copyright; they had an article. Mr Weerawarana refused to acknowledge the copyright and remove the derivative work.

These statements, his statements in his companies ticketing system and the basic facts of the legal case were added to his personal page which caused a wiki war with him calling it as 'spam' while I tried to stick to the facts to avoid libel or any other issues.

The JamesBWatson acct recently removed the content from the Sanjiva Weerawarana page, blocked the Orubel acct and Bbb23 blocked the IP so no talk or edits could be done (except on my own talk page), and then decided to remove pages for copyrighted material that Mr Weerawarana also disliked.

This removal of the API Chaining and API Abstraction pages (or the tagging for removal) are a distinct violation of 'code of conduct' and 'conflict of interest' in that he showed favor to one party in what was stated in the removed content as a legal dispute. Te second party was unable to respond and/or edit (blocked and blocked IP) and they didn't read the notes about the legal issues or the references on projects and presentations.

API Chaining has references, is used in an project where it is cited, has been talked about at largescale conferences such as SpringOne (at publicly cited). API Abstraction has references, is used in an project where it is cited, has been talked about at largescale conferences such as SpringOne (at publicly cited).

Neither of these are worth considering for removal and the JamesBWatson was, at the very least, over enthusiast, with his attack. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.39.210 (talk) 19:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

• If JamesBWatson and Bbb23 were the same person their synergistic awesomeness would create such a burst of heat and light that the universe would implode.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 19:54, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Then again, Ponyo, it would help to explain some of Bbb23's penchant for secrecy. They won't even tell me what their favorite football team or SRV record is. Drmies (talk) 01:09, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
    • I'm surprised you even know what an SRV record is. And I've told you what my favorite football team is.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:46, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

525th MI Brigade

Yesterday, a user manually moved an article, and in the process inadvertently severed the article's edit history. Would an administrator please fix this by re-moving 525th Battlefield Surveillance Brigade to 525th Military Intelligence Brigade (United States) over the re-direct? Thanks, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

 Done In the future, you can use {{histmerge}} to tag a page for this. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:12, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Duly noted and thanks! Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:52, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Matt200055

Recently I removed inappropriate material (a list of 'evil users'[107] that clearly violates what is stated under WP:POLEMIC) from the User and Talk pages of Matt200055 (talk · contribs) after the editor made attempts to goad BlackCab (talk · contribs)[108][109][110] and SummerPhD (talk · contribs)[111][112]. (Previous content of the 'evil list' indicates this to be an ongoing pattern of behaviour.) After I removed inappropriate material from the editor's User and User Talk pages, he responded with imaginary 'conditions' for how I was 'allowed' to respond to him in future.[113] The user has subsequently vandalised my user page while logged out (i.e. as an IP user).[114] Comparison of the material added to my user page relating to A-Ha with the editing history of Matt200055 provides a clear link with the user, in addition to the obvious timing of the retributive action (separate action elsewhere by Favonian (talk · contribs) also confirms this). The vandalism was reverted by BlackCab (talk · contribs)[115][116], who was one of the editors previously goaded by Matt200055. The editor has never engaged anyone at any article Talk page to discuss any article content, instead choosing to make mild threats about his 'evil list' when content disputes arise. As the editor's behaviour appears to be escalating, it seems necessary that something be done to assist the editor to abide by Wikipedia policies.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:46, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• I've looked at and reverted some of this editor's work--including removal of valid information and addition of unsourced information. They've not restored their silly list: so far that's the best thing they've done here. Drmies (talk) 01:32, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Abusive posts on user talk by IP 58.106.19.68

58.106.19.68 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Abusive posts diff1 diff2.

Not sure if this is better handled here of AVI, but I have posted here. - - MrBill3 (talk) 02:22, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Blocked. Presumably not a newcomer to Wikipedia, judging by their last comment. Acroterion (talk) 02:27, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Peroxwhyhalo

Over the past week this user has edit warred on Cedric Alexander and Matt Taven. Their talk page is filled with warnings from Ribbon Salminen, HHH Pedigree, bots, and myself; I personally have spelled out exactly what is wrong with their edits twice but the behavior has continued. A few days ago they admitted to their errors but quickly resumed edit warring regardless and have not tried communicating with anybody since. They also have a pattern of bad image uploads. Could we get some help? We've tried to settle this by ourselves but unfortunately that has not worked.LM2000 (talk) 02:39, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

No ongoing 3RR (it looks like a violation on 2 November, but nothing active), but this does look like a slower edit warrior who needs a general {{uw-ewblock}}. I'll handle the situation and report back. Nyttend (talk) 05:24, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Block levied. Since it's a new editor, I left a custom message explaining the situation and offering to discuss it with him if requested; we can't just sweep it under the rug, but we ought not be as sharp as we would with someone who's previously been blocked for this kind of thing. Nyttend (talk) 05:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the help Nyttend, I agree completely that this is the right route.LM2000 (talk) 05:52, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

IP editor pushing un-/poorly sourced fringe POV

76.201.60.184 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

IP edit warred against consensus to add material to Orion (constellation) using a source that didn't support the material, an outdated and fringe source, and two personal websites. They were asked every single time to discuss the issue, which they ignored completely. Once the article was protected, they proceeded to spam unsourced material claiming "Orion the sun god symbolizes Christ," and further claiming that Dionysus and Osiris were prophecies of the coming Christ.

Since they're on a static IP, they're in all likelyhood on a computer, so they should be receiving the messages. At this point I'm convinced that they're WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia or edit cooperatively, they're simply trying to use use Wikipedia as a pulpit to preach their religious views.

Ian.thomson (talk) 03:17, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Their edit summary here ("rv vandalism") indicates that this is not a new user at all. The IP should know better. His focus on Armenia and Orion also leads me to believe we're dealing with 66.214.143.68 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), who had previously engaged in edit warring across a number of other articles to push un-/poorly sourced fringe OR across articles such Orion (constellation) and Hayk.

Ian.thomson (talk) 03:34, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Both 66.214 and 76.201 are from Glendale, CA; both edit warred to make assertions that the constellation Orion was of some cosmic importance, and both showed prior awareness of Wikipedia lingo ("rv"). I don't know who it is, but I get the feeling we're dealing with someone who was blocked or maybe even banned before. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:59, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

"they're in all likelyhood on a computer" Not quite sure what you mean by this bit, Ian.thomson. In the mean time, I've blocked 76.201.60.184 for 24 hours, since the edits to Christian mysticism violated 3RR. Nyttend (talk) 05:08, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Cell phone IPs aren't static, so that leaves editing on a computer the most likely possibility. I've seen some cell phone editors who missed messages because the notification on the mobile site isn't as obvious, and seen that possibility raised when some other editors ignored messages. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:13, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Okay, computer vs. smartphone; I see. I just wasn't sure how one could edit Wikipedia without a computer :-) I didn't check anything done by this editor except for the editwarring; the source usage isn't anything warranting a block, especially since the outdated source probably warrants something (e.g. "In the 1940s [or whatever the date was], it was suspected that Osiris represented whatever"), as we ought to study past ideas as well as current ones. However, there's no defending the 3RR. Nyttend (talk) 05:20, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

The source usage actually is a problem The only really reliable source, The Oxford Guide: Essential Guide to Egyptian Mythology, actually doesn't say what the text says about Orion being a sun god(said rather), and neither this dead link to a schools site[117] nor [118] meet WP:RS. The IP is also adding the unsourced statement "Orion the sun god symbolizes Christ." to various articles. Dougweller (talk) 10:46, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I see a prolonged edit-war along the same lines (Orion=Osiris=Ra=sun-god) in Dying-and-rising god back in 2012 that left the IP's (mainly 75.51.171.237) unsourced insertion standing[119] - until now. NebY (talk) 12:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Block needed, possibly revdel

108.73.114.174 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

IP's gone nuts and started spamming personal attacks against a user in their edit summaries for pointless edits. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:07, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not personal attacks when the edit summaries are all Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive142#Result concerning Arthur Rubin wp:COI = Arthur Rubin Tea party movement Undid revision [number] by Arthur Rubin (talk). However, this guy was following Arthur around, undoing lots of his edits on otherwise unrelated pages; this is harassment, so I've levied a 24-hour block for it. Nyttend (talk) 05:17, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

It's the "Michigan kid". See User:Arthur Rubin/IP list and part of User:Arthur Rubin/watch for some history. No opinion on revdel; there was an ArbCom result; it's just that it is completely irrelevant to almost all of the edits, and irrelevant per clarification for all but one of the thousands. I believe I made one edit in violation of the topic ban. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:48, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

why they are showing BLP issue?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have reverted a content blanking in the article Ron Paul. Here is my edit [120]. But the edit summury for my edit is showing "possible BLP issue or vandalism". Why? --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 05:42, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

It's our abuse filter. I don't understand how it works, but with a rather subjective issue such as this, it can have plenty of false positives. Since this was automatically applied, and since any human can see that you weren't doing anything wrong, you need not worry about it. If you wish to report it, you can go to Wikipedia:Edit filter/False positives, but you should feel free to forget about it if you wish. Nyttend (talk) 05:46, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Ok. --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 05:51, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Harassment by User:The Banner

It's been about a week now, since I've questioned his undiscussed move from Karavostasi to Gemikonagi and had it reverted, that User:The Banner has been trying to disparage me, ignoring calls to substantiate any of his claims.

• He accused me of bias for having an IP in south Cyprus (1)
• He reinstated his move and tried to have his favourite version move-protected (2)
• He accused me of having a 'severe preference [for] Greek names', and called for me to be topic banned, ignores requests for diffs of my oh-so egregious offences that'd warrant it (3)
• He's today called for 'my friends' to be topic-banned as well, while continuing to ignore my and User:Dr.K.'s requests for diffs (4)
• He accused me of something-something about emotions, claims I said the move was uncontroversial, once again does not apologise for being caught red-handed (5)

There's more, but this isn't a court of law. I wouldn't ask for him to be blocked, 'cause he's obviously otherwise productive, but can someone bring him back to his senses? This has become very tiring. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 12:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I have repeatedly asked you to leave me alone. You clearly refuse that. I consider your behaviour as harassment. The Banner talk 12:56, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Really now? Who said you had to get involved above? Nobody called your name, and I can't exactly leave you alone when you keep claiming things about me that are not true. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 13:00, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Yep, you just have to read this. The Banner talk 13:10, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Topic ban and interaction ban for 213.7.147.34

I have enough of IP's 213.7.147.34 continuing attacks and refusal to accept opinions that do not fit his opinions. I think a topic ban of all articles related to Cyprus and a interaction ban towards me are suitable. I want to work in peace and have enough of this guy stirring up the pot. The Banner talk 12:54, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• See, this isn't how it works. You can't just say things; you'd need to be able to make a case for it. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 12:58, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
  • See here how mr. IP attacked me in a discussion where I was not involved and after I had stated that the emotions were running too high and that I baled out of the Cyprus mess. The Banner talk 13:09, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• It is neverproper to be party to a dispute and ask for an interaction or a topic ban. Blackmane (talk) 13:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Not even remotely true. What may be inappropriate is implementing a restriction when you're involved, but asking for a restriction is not necessarily disruptive. Honestly, Banner's placement of this request in a separate subsection is probably the most proper way of starting a discussion about sanctioning 213'; it at least blunts accusation that Banner is trying to derail discussion about his behavior. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 13:13, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I desperately wants to get out of it, even as this means that I have to accept the same topic ban and interaction ban. I accidentally strayed it that mine field, noticed how high the emotions were running and made a runner... The Banner talk 13:16, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

You're not gonna be able to have a topic ban implemented, unless you can provide evidence that such a topic ban is needed. The only one's emotions who were running high were yours; stop retelling this fairy tale. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 13:23, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't <ugly word> care and I don't <ugly word> care about you. Just leave me alone. Go way. The Banner talk 13:47, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I might've done so, if it weren't for the fact that you 'bailed out' thrice before, only to thrice return to smear me (and others). Stop pretending you're somehow the victim here. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 16:20, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Just read the example above, in which I had to defend myself against an attack by you, after no prior involvement in that discussion. What I want, is that you just leave me alone. You can have that whole cyprus, left and right, north and south, east and west. But leave me alone. The Banner talk 20:19, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

This makes me genuinely sad. Life's too short to be making enemies out of other people. 83.168.23.138 (talk) 23:23, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• A topic ban on Cyprus for IP213.7.147.34 would clearly be completely counterproductive for Wikipedia. The editor has been doing a tremendous work on Cyprus-related articles lately: cleaning up after POV-editing, correcting errors, giving consistency to articles, providing more balanced presentations (yes, that too!) and generally improving the whole field. The Banner has repeatedly been asked to provide diffs for the accusastions against the IP editor. Surely a topic ban cannot be given without a foundation being made? --T*U (talk) 17:00, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support interaction ban, no comment on topic ban. Banner has asked the IP to leave him out of it and IP continues to WP:HOUND him. IBAN is warranted. Ivanvector (talk) 18:17, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

It's the exact opposite. The Banner, in all instances, joined a discussion that either I started or I'd previously participated in. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 18:19, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban I see no indication that 213.7.147.34 is a POV warrior; he's participating quite civilly in the discussion at Talk:Karavostasi, and while he has certainly been critical of The Banner, that's hardly surprising given the diffs cited above. It doesn't look as if he has crossed the line to personal attacks, and the observation that The Banner's emotions are running a lot higher than 213.7.147.34's appears entirely accurate.
  I would say it's too early for an interaction ban as well, but certainly at this point not much good is coming out of these two editors interacting. I'd encourage both The Banner and 213.7.147.34 to leave the other alone for a while, calm down and concentrate on building an encyclopedia; they're both very capable of being productive editors.
  The Banner, if you feel there's a pro-Greek bias in Cyprus-related articles, by all means do your best to counter it... but use reliable sources and calmly reasoned arguments rather than claims of bias or POV-pushing. You'll probably find that the editors on the other side will be less critical of you then, and actually respect your point of view - and if the opposite happens, then you'll have grounds for requesting a topic ban. Sideways713 (talk) 18:40, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Unless you are up against a team, then making a runner is the best option. And that is just what I did. The Banner talk 19:37, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
    • @The Banner: Please stop these vague and base allegations against good-faith editors. This is verging on harassment. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:59, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) Yet another baseless accusation. Just 'cause we're courteous towards each other doesn't make us a 'team', and it's not like we've never disagreed. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 20:01, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban Per TU-nor and Sideways713. That would be completely unjustified and unjustifiable for the IP editor, who as T*U noted, has performed stellar and tedious work in the field of Cypriot municipal onomatology to the point that Future Perfect at Sunrise has told him that it is a lot of work at the talkpage of the Greek naming discussion. I find the vague allegations by The Banner, about POV-pushing without providing diffs, and the request for a topic ban for the IP editor to be pointy and indicative of the dismissal on The Banner's part, of the IP editor's remarkable and expert contributions in cleaning up this topic area both onomatologically and POV-wise. As far as IBan, I think that it is premature, but ultimately it wouldn't harm either of them. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:15, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Socks editing Mamie Van Doren

Mamie Van Doren (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I just woke up long enough to let my dogs out and made the mistake of checking WP. There have been ongoing problems with the Mamie Van Doren article by a sock. Today they created another account (well, two actually but one has been dealt with already) and this most recent one is adding the same material to the page. Could some admin please deal with this new sock and possibly protect the page? I'd dot all the Is and cross the Ts myself with all the right protection/investigation desks but I just want to get back to sleep. Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 20:16, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

The sock blocked, te article protected for 3 weeks (given that the current disruption continued after expiration of the previous protection)--Ymblanter (talk) 20:42, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! Dismas|^(talk) 21:56, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Bilal Jamal Eddine

For some reason the user has decided to move his user page into a project page. As it seems like he is using it as a webhost, I am not sure what deletion criteria apply. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 21:14, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Deleted as obvious G11, talk page moved back to his account, softblocked and COI-warned. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 21:23, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Sanjay at iac

Please can someone indef User:Sanjay at iac. The usual IAC sock/meat farm making legal threats. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 21:37, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

 Done -- Diannaa (talk) 21:46, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. It's nice to see mop deployment speeding up in this area ;) - Sitush (talk) 21:48, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Probably could do with removing talk page access, as we often have been doing for this lot. They're ranting now. - Sitush (talk) 22:07, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Some of those diffs in the talk history could do with a revdel. Blackmane (talk) 22:17, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Access now revoked. For a supposedly anti-corruption body, they're remarkably adept at lying. - Sitush (talk) 22:24, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Another admin has rev-deleted most of their talk page posts, so we are done for now. Next time I will remove talk page access right from the get-go and save us some work :/ -- Diannaa (talk) 22:38, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to all of you and, yes, a speedy block that include talk page revocation is the way to go. - Sitush (talk) 22:42, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Implied legal threat on Talk:Laverne Cox

See edit here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:06, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

That's not a legal threat. Without a stated or implied intent to sue by that editor, it's just a discussion of whether it's generally libel or actionable.__ E L A Q U E A T E 22:14, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh please, that is not a legal threat, it is merely an expression of my (non-lawyer) opinion that this is libelous behavior that warrants legal action on the part of Ms. Cox (which is why I think this info should be removed from her page IMMEDIATELY). I also hope the Yankees win the World Series next year, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen! ::eyeroll:: Aroundthewayboy (talk) 22:21, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I take a dim view of "well, I'm certainly not going to sue you, but someone else would/could" threats, but I recognize that they're often more borderline than most of our NLT examples. To Aroundthewayboy: I don't think this was intended to be or served as a legal threat. However the purpose of the legal threats policy is to avoid quelling discussion. Saying that someone would or should sue an editor for what is essentially normal editing chills discussion on the subject and creates a pretty shitty environment for your peers who all edit the encyclopedia for free as a hobby. If you feel that some content has been added which could be libelous, then specifically say that and only that. Don't try to trump it up or bring anything that looks like a legal threat into the picture. Protonk (talk) 22:48, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Hm, fair enough. When I wrote that I was feeling very heated because I had just read an earlier linked WP discussion in which a transgender woman (Laverne) literally wrote "I beg you to remove this information" (her birth name), which this editor linked to proudly to flaunt the fact that they had ignored her clearly stated wishes and expression of the deep personal harm it had caused her. It reeked of a transphobic campaign of harassment to me, and it made me very upset. I was actually going to go back 5 minutes later and remove the "I hope she sues you" line as well as the "you're disgusting" line, because although it was a true expression of my feelings in that moment, I thought it made me sound a little overheated (which I was). But by then the above editor had already removed them and, very oddly, reported it to this forum (which could actually be construed as a threat and an attempt to silence me, even though all my edits have been in good faith and I have only solicited consensus, not tried to silence people).

However, I stand by the fundamental sentiment, which is that pattern of reinserting Laverne's birth name into her entry, against her CLEAR and PERSONAL communication that she "begs" us to stop putting it on Wikipedia, is a grotesque campaign of harassment in which a handful of editors are delighting in the fact that they are gravely harming Laverne. I do think that it rises to the level of legally actionable behavior, which I had already written in the discussion. If for no other reason, this info should be removed.

But no, I'm not going to sue this person, even though I may hold very negative personal opinions about their harassment -- for one thing I have no legal standing, so that makes zero sense. Aroundthewayboy (talk) 23:03, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually, you're not going to sue this person (i.e., me) because you have no clue what is legally actionable. Pretending that you do only reflects badly on you. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:07, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Did you read her article about how this kind of harassment drove her to the brink of suicide? Did you read her messages in which she said "I beg you to remove this"? Aroundthewayboy (talk) 23:12, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• Truth is virtually always a valid defense in a defamation suit, and it's damn difficult to maintain an invasion of privacy suit when the relevant "private" facts are a matter of public record. From my perspective, this is a very silly conversation to be having. I take no pleasure in giving anyone personal pain, but that's not a valid reason for omitting relevant public information from a Wikipedia biography article about an otherwise notable person. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:16, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
• You are assuming the editor in question was Cox (they did not respond to my advice about confirming who they were). Secondly, have you stopped beating your spouse yet? Or are you going to accuse USA Today and The National Post of harassing her as well? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:21, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

EDITING THIS TO READ: NeilN, I apologize if I was a little hot-headed as I tried to defend Laverne. I will do my best to assume good faith in your edits. Have a great night!!!! Aroundthewayboy (talk) 23:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Here's what Laverne wrote: "I shouldn't have to get consensus on my life. When a transgender person is referred to by our birth name it misgenders us and encourages people who hate trans people to misgender. Having this information on Wikipedia encourages hate and affects the quality of my life as a trans person. Can you take it down please? I beg you. Also Chelsea Manning transitioned publicly and her pre transition name was public knowledge before she transitioned. This is something I have never shared with anyone"

The crucial bit is that this was not something she had ever shared in any interview. There is one interview with her mother in an obscure blog in which her birth name came up, but other than that the only articles that cite her birth name are ones created AFTER these users put it on Wikipedia. The articles in question are in entertainment sections of mediocre publications, and with the way they are worded I strongly suspect their only source was Wikipedia. This becomes a problem of circularity and original research, as well as harassment.

Also, this is not a "silly" conversation for Laverne herself, who has written a whole article about how this type of harassment and misgendering brought her to the brink of suicide. This is serious stuff. Aroundthewayboy (talk) 23:24, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I believe this is the fourth or fifth time you've accused me of waging a campaign of harassment (now deleted - you need to think twice before clicking save) or worse. Since you seem incapable of assuming good faith, I see no reason to further engage with you. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:39, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I will do my best to assume good faith. Have a great night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Aroundthewayboy (talk) 00:04, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Unintentional Outing

Can I get someone to fix my screw up? I didn't think about my comment made here as a confirmation or denial but out of safety it should probably be revdel. [[121]] Apologies. My idea is that we delete the SPI page and repost in it's current format or completely revdel as needed. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 00:35, 9 November 2014 (UTC)