#*** Jenner answered the queston for her in the Vanity Fair article {{tq|i=y|Bissinger apologizes to Jenner for repeated pronoun confusion and asks whether she is sensitive about it. “I don’t really get hung up,” she tells him. “A guy came in the other day and I was fully dressed—it’s just habit, I said, ‘Hi, Bruce here,’ and I went, Oh fuck, it ain’t Bruce, I was screwing up doing it.”}} Different strokes. The biggest difference with Jenner and most other people (not just transgender people) is fame and celebrity status for 40 years prior to transition. She chose to publicly transition in way that isn't available to hardly anyone. Also, celebrities manage their image. It was true before her transition and it is true after. Virtually everyone doesn't know Jenner any more after her transition than before her transition unless they are personal friends or family. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 09:04, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
#*** Jenner answered the queston for her in the Vanity Fair article {{tq|i=y|Bissinger apologizes to Jenner for repeated pronoun confusion and asks whether she is sensitive about it. “I don’t really get hung up,” she tells him. “A guy came in the other day and I was fully dressed—it’s just habit, I said, ‘Hi, Bruce here,’ and I went, Oh fuck, it ain’t Bruce, I was screwing up doing it.”}} Different strokes. The biggest difference with Jenner and most other people (not just transgender people) is fame and celebrity status for 40 years prior to transition. She chose to publicly transition in way that isn't available to hardly anyone. Also, celebrities manage their image. It was true before her transition and it is true after. Virtually everyone doesn't know Jenner any more after her transition than before her transition unless they are personal friends or family. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 09:04, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
#** Now discarding someone's opinion because they are transgender is out of line, although that's not exactly what you wrote. Note that the discussion here is a general one, not about Jenner. [[User:Place Clichy|Place Clichy]] ([[User talk:Place Clichy|talk]]) 18:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
#** Now discarding someone's opinion because they are transgender is out of line, although that's not exactly what you wrote. Note that the discussion here is a general one, not about Jenner. [[User:Place Clichy|Place Clichy]] ([[User talk:Place Clichy|talk]]) 18:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
**** No, that would be sn ad hominem attack. But the flip side is "I is trans" is an appeal to authority, as if trans opinions should have more weight. They don't.[[Special:Contributions/69.143.188.200|69.143.188.200]] ([[User talk:69.143.188.200|talk]]) 22:12, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' We shouldn't be changing history. --[[User:AussieLegend|'''<span style="color:green;">Aussie</span><span style="color:gold;">Legend</span>''']] ([[User talk:AussieLegend#top|<big>✉</big>]]) 14:16, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' We shouldn't be changing history. --[[User:AussieLegend|'''<span style="color:green;">Aussie</span><span style="color:gold;">Legend</span>''']] ([[User talk:AussieLegend#top|<big>✉</big>]]) 14:16, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
#:{{Ping|AussieLegend}} presumably your next edits will be to rename the crap out of things at the article on [[Prince (musician)]] hmn? [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 15:29, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
#:{{Ping|AussieLegend}} presumably your next edits will be to rename the crap out of things at the article on [[Prince (musician)]] hmn? [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 15:29, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss proposed policies and guidelines and changes to existing policies and guidelines. If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use the proposals section. If you have a question about how to apply an existing policy or guideline, try the one of the many Wikipedia:Noticeboards. This is not the place to resolve disputes over how a policy should be implemented. Please see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for how to proceed in such cases.
Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.
Some years ago, pending changes were introduced on an experimental basis. A subsequent RfC voted to end the experiment, but pending changes are still with us. Some administrators take advantage of this fact by putting more articles in. Most of the work on Islamic calendar, for example, is done by IPs, but since it was put in pending changes (for no good reason) editing has stopped. I suggest we enforce the RfC and that all articles currently in pending changes be taken out.
This will mean that pending changes reviewers (who I take to be everyone who is autoconfirmed) will have nothing to do. I therefore propose that IPs be given back the right to start articles for an experimental period of six months on a pending changes basis. That is to say, their articles would not be publicly visible until the text had been approved by an editor.
Technically, I suppose that what would happen would be that the article would be created and accessible as normal, with the usual edit and history tabs. The text created by the IP would appear in the edit box but would not be seen publicly (the article would appear as any page does when it has been blanked). Editing would be as normal for pending changes, with the first edit to be publicly visible being the first edit by an autoconfirmed editor. Normal deletion policy would apply.
Where an editor tags for CSD he may find it convenient to make the offending text publicly visible to assist those following up. Either way, if there are no objections an administrator will be along about fifteen minutes later to delete. Every article started in this way will automatically remain within pending changes for one month after creation.
There are two big advantages of this proposal. Article growth went well from inception until just shy of the five million mark, when it stalled. This proposal will put it back on track. It will also result in an infusion of new blood. Wikipedia is haemorrhaging editors. It desperately needs new ones. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 14:46, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The difference is that you can put something in AfC and it hangs around for months so most people don't bother. Under this proposal you are in the driving seat so a lot more people will add worthwhile content. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As is, most articles created by newcomers are deleted quickly without discussion, a situation which I believe to be very BITEy, and possibly is a significant cause of Wikipedia "haemorrhaging editors"; move the permission to create articles a bit farther back, and the situation will become worse, not better. עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 20:28, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused by your proposal for a few reasons. First, IP editors can still edit with pending changes, in effect it is a weaker version of semi-protection which BLOCKS all IP editors. I would suggest moving many semi pages to pending changes actually and strongly oppose removal of pending changes. As for AfC, it works. Reviewing a new article is a process, more so than a simple pending changes button, and does take a little longer. And third, only users with the Pending changes reviewer can review the pending changes, even though any auto confirmed users edits will be accepted. EoRdE6(Come Talk to Me!) 23:31, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have missed the series of RFCs that reauthorized the use of pending changes protection (level 1 only). Monty845 23:43, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The last RfC decided that PC was wanted and it was up to editors to decide how to implement it. To date there has been no consensus on this so there is no mandate to put Islamic calendar (or any other article for that matter) into PC. PC seems to be very complex - there are at least two levels of it and SlimVirgin said she didn't understand it. I think it is too complicated. Given that here in March there was a consensus that PC should not operate for an extended period all that is needed is a week of semi - protection where necessary to drive the vandals away.
Od Mishehu says that "most articles created by newcomers are deleted quickly without discussion". That's a failure by the established editors. They should work to bring the articles up to standard, not delete them. This is why IPs should be allowed to create articles - they then get the benefit of all the other editors who know something about the subject adding sources and content. That is the essence of crowdsourcing.
Replying to EoRdE6, AfC takes months and is permanently backlogged. With direct article creation other editors can come in and get the article on the road to GA status in a few days. You see articles like the Charlie Hebdo massacre which within just a few hours of creation are full of content and sources. The system of creating stubs giving experts the opportunity to come in and build a full length article has worked well.
There is a proverb "If you want a job done do it yourself". AfC relies on getting other people to post the content to mainspace. It's a form of action by proxy which is proven to be inefficient. The British government in 2002 experimented with postal voting - included was the local council election in my area. There were no polling stations (no electronic voting here - today is the general election and everyone takes printed ballots, fills them in and posts them into the ballot box). The voters had to fill in the ballot papers then give them to the postmen who had to give them to the council. Needless to say the experiment was not repeated.
It's the same everywhere. We got supermarkets from America - before then shoppers queued at the grocer's while he picked their selections off his shelves. Now checkout operators have been done away with and customers scan their shopping themselves - no more queuing. No more queuing at the public library either - readers return and renew their books themselves at self - service kiosks, resulting in a more efficient use of their and the staff's time. Self - service machines are at railway stations - everywhere you can think of. Introduction of AfC was a retrograde step. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 11:21, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There was very strong consensus to enable the use of Pending Changes throughout all namespaces
and further
The consensus on this was fairly clearly against having any specific criteria, but a significant minority expressed concern that its use is less well-defined than is the use for conventional protection methods; if enormous inconsistencies with application are seen upon implementation, this may be a topic worth revisiting
and at the end
As with the previous RfC, assessing the usefulness of what gained consensus here will require some monitoring. The same time frames (1 month for obvious problems, more for subtler issues) seem to fit with everything in this discussion as well. It appears that after this and the previous RfCs, we have the necessary framework to roll out Pending Changes, and we know what aspects of its use will require the most monitoring and later attention.
So no we aren't waiting for the community to come to some sort of agreement on how to use it. (There were earlier RfCs which also dealt with when to use PC1.)
Of course, if you feel that PC1 is being in ways that are unhelpful in some instances, you're welcome to start a properly fleshed-out RfC on the matter, but I strongly urge you to talk to others about this before hand, and make sure you actually otherstand what the history is, otherwise your RfC is unlikely to do anything useful. (As it stands, you're failing to follow information I had sort of heard before, but to be honest had mostly forgotten by now and only properly relearned by actually reading the PC page and following the links to the RfC has lead to your proposal being sidetracked by this unnecessary discussion.) Now if you feel the admin's closing wasn't an accurate summation of the RfC consensus, or if you feel that the RfCs had insufficient participation compared to earlier RfCs, you could try to dispute that, but relitigating stuff after 2+ years rarely works well.
Perhaps Islamic calendar may have had useful IP edits, but it also had many that were reverted (which look to be more or less the same edit from a persistent IP hopper). I didn't look in to these enough to say if the reversions were proper, simply that they happened therefore whether before or after PC, IP edits were being rejected.
More importantly perhaps, the time frame here is insufficient to tell us anything about pending changes, particularly if you look at the logs or edit history carefully. On 13 April, both PC1 and semi protection were applied with the PC1 due to expire on 13 July and the semiprotection on 27 April. My thoughts and a search confirmed via Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2015 March 18#Pending changes and Semi-protection simultaneously that this works and is evidently done sometimes when it's felt that there is an acute problem that needs to be dealt with via semiprotection for a short time, and a chronic problem that needs PC1.
Without commenting on whether this was the case for Islamic calender, this means it was impossible for IPs to directly edit from 17:36 13 April to 27 April. So there's a fair chance the absence of IP edits for this period had nothing to do with PC1.
So really all you're talking about is from 27 April until now. In that period, we had 3 IP edits. 2 were rejected, 1 accepted. Again without commenting on the appropriateness of any of these edits, unless we were getting an average of 1 useful IP edit on average every 3 days or so (which it doesn't look like we were), it's difficult to useful conclude things were so much better before PC1. You simply lack sufficient data to be able to make any conclusion about a reduction of helpful IP edits. And at the very least, the editor who kept making the same change which I think lead up to the semiprotections and PC1 seems to have left for now.
BTW, for the avoidance of doubt and confusion, I should mention I'm aware editors who haven't been auto/confirmed are affected as well, I just used IPs for shorthand and since it's also harder to spot such editors.
I think that the proposal that an article should go into PC just because a lot of IPs don't edit it is misconceived. The Islamic calendar is hardly a mainstream subject. Your comments on PC generally are a joke. About twenty years ago the local council proposed to demolish a housing estate and being short of cash proposed to sell off the land to a private developer. To do that, it needed the consent of the tenants. It assured them that the estate would not be sold if the majority were opposed. The tenants kept asking for a ballot but the council ignored them. Finally the ballot papers arrived, and the tenants were dismayed to see that their votes would be rolled up among those of tenants on other estates which were going to be refurbished. This followed an "opinion poll" conducted by a survey company which doorknocked to ask the tenants what they wanted for their estate but did not ask the key question Do you want your estate to be sold or not? The council's ballot paper was craftily worded - not "Do you want your estate to be sold?" as discussed in literature and meetings but "Do you want your home to be sold, meaning that the tenants' views would be submerged amongst the views of all the tenants on other estates who were going to get new kitchens and bathrooms instead of seeing their homes reduced to rubble.
Same here, there was a lot of discussion about how pending changes might work, but no discussion of whether its reenablement would be a good or bad thing. Since pending changes is a dead loss, let me reformulate my proposal. IPs would be able to create articles just as before Siegenthaler with one exception - edits by non - autoconfirmed editors would only become publicly visible when the page was first edited by an autoconfirmed user. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 13:21, 12 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The claim "Some years ago, pending changes were introduced on an experimental basis. A subsequent RfC voted to end the experiment, but pending changes are still with us" is factually untrue. What happened is that PC was implemented with permission of the community with the restriction that it be removed after a set period, that promise was broken and PC remained, then all hell broke loose. Later, after it was removed and we put down the pitchforks and torches, a second proposal was made to implement PC permanently, and the decision of the community was yes for level one PC and no for level two PC. So the reality is that [A] the current PC policy is supported by the community and [B] we would be fools to ever again believe a promise like "let's try this for six months and then we will turn it off and evaluate how theexperiment went" after having been lied to in the past. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:34, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Editors were given two alternatives: PC anywhere or PC in restricted areas. The third alternative, PC nowhere, was not presented. This is the same trick the council played when wording its ballot on council house selloffs. After John Prescott was told where he could stick his housing policy he came up with more alternatives:
transfer to private landlord (and if you disagree there's no money to maintain your home so it will fall to pieces around you)
private finance initiative (PFI) where developers get a long lease in return for financing the work
arms - length management organisation (ALMO) where the council retains ownership of the homes but the management is farmed out to a quango (quasi non - governmental organisation).
The fourth option, stay as you are, was not presented.
Tenants were ballotted on the three options and - surprise - the council claimed 80% of them were in favour of option 3. In fact, hardly anyone voted, so the actual percentage in favour was tiny.
As for broken promises, anyone can start an RfC suggesting that PC be turned off, and if it wins a consensus that's more power to the community. Don't underestimate the power of public opinion - Prescott had a scheme to decimate (and I don't mean reduce by 10%) perfectly serviceable housing in Liverpool which was withdrawn in the face of strong opposition. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 16:30, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
156.61.250.250, I suggest that you read the discussions and RfCs in question and edit the above claims accordingly.
In particular, Wikipedia:PC2012/RfC 2 and Wikipedia:PC2012/RfC 3 clearly show that your your claim "The third alternative, PC nowhere, was not presented" has zero basis in reality. Did you really imagine that nobody would check? --Guy Macon (talk) 21:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You've linked to eleven RfCs on this subject. I was given just two to look up, one of them being Wikipedia:PC2012/RfC3 which you also cite. I don't see anywhere in that wall of text where editors were asked to !vote on the proposition "Do you (a) want to enable PC or (b) switch it off. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 08:43, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually you were given 2, which all have the header showing all the RfCs. More importantly, your original comment was "The last RfC decided that PC was wanted and it was up to editors to decide how to implement it. To date there has been no consensus on this".
I'm sure I wasn't the only one who assumed that this meant you were already aware of Wikipedia:Pending changes/Request for Comment 2012 (which had, we think at least 503 participants) where the decision had already been made that PC was wanted. It sounded like you only weren't aware about the following RfCs (together I think with the discussions on the policy page), where decisions were made and consensus reached on how to implement the existing consensus for PC.
I don't know that much about the history surrounding all the RfCs, but I presume the decision was made that there was no need to revisit the decision to implement PC since it had already achieved consensus in the earlier RfC. (Although opposition to PC wasn't ignored, it just wasn't made a specific question in the RfC.) Note that the consensus wasn't conditional on there being a final yes or no !vote (which is a silly concept anyway) on whether to implement PC after a policy a better policy was in place.
In fact the RfC itself didn't even find there was need for consensus for a new policy, the draft policy was sufficient but not ideal. Notably also, it looks to me like there were far more participants in the decision to implement PC, rather than the later discussions surrounding PC policy. (Only the 2013 RfC about PC/2 seems to have come close but also still quite far.)
However if you believe consensus has changed, you're welcome to open yet another RfC. It would of course pay to do your own reading in the hope you will show a far better understanding then you have here on the history. Rather then expecting to be spoonfed everything when you are the one making the proposal. If not, frankly your proposal is likely to fail as much as your one here.
Not to put a subtle point on it, but your original comments were bad enough. Now it sounds like you didn't even know about the major RfC despite being up in arms about how PC never had consensus (even if it wasn't the focus of your proposal). If you start an RfC where the focus is disabling PC saying there was never any consensus, and you say this partly because you weren't even aware of the RfC which had (we think) at least 503 participants, well expect to be ignored.
Hello, here's my view on the subject. In a word, social issues can't be solved with technical solutions. --NaBUru38 (talk) 00:53, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's time to add a comment which has been sitting on 156.61.250.250's talk page for days waiting to be pasted over.
@Nil Einne:Would you please paste the following statement to the Village pump (policy) discussion.
I've been given confusing references - RFC 2012 (Sept.Oct.Nov), Wikipedia:PC2012/RfC 2, Wikipedia:2012/RfC 3, and now Wikipedia:Pending changes/Request for Comment 2012. Having read through this last I see that editors endorsed the use of PC in line with a draft policy. This draft policy explains the variations PC1 and PC2 but says nothing about which one is the more desirable or whether neither is desirable. After mentioning the above RfC you mention "the following RfCs ...where decisions were made and consensus reached on how to implement the existing consensus for PC."
@Nil Einne:RFC 2013 and RFC 2014 are by definition "following RfCs". RFC 2013 decided
There is only a consensus for implementation if and only if an rfc concerning criteria for its use gains community - wide consensus first.
So there is one more RfC to look at - RFC 2014 - and the close of that is a reiteration that PC will not be implemented until there is a consensus on how to implement it. If and when that discussion takes place it would be totally wrong to deny editors the opportunity to decide that they don't want PC at all. This is the principle of "no parliament can bind its successor". 156.61.250.250 (talk) 08:48, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Since the link at the top of this section no longer works I'm adding the content here:
At a time when the long - term viability of Wikipedia is in doubt, editors have been discussing invigorating the community by enabling the creation of articles by IPs subject to safeguards. There have been no opposes. WMF have been asked to comment and have raised no objections. The mood of the community appears to be that the change should be implemented. Presumably it would involve reversing the post - Siegenthaler dev changes and moving onto a "level 3" pending changes regime in which pending changes would be turned off immediately an autoconfirmed editor edited the article. What is the procedure for turning an agreed change into reality? 156.61.250.250 (talk) 10:22, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That change is far from agreed upon, I see more people rallying for complete removal of IP editing than this. We have WP:AfC that let's IP editors create an article, and that is all that has been agreed so far. NPP is badly backlogged, and it is well documented that most articles by new editors fail, no references, pure advertising etc. I can't see consensus on this anytime soon. EoRdE6(Come Talk to Me!) 13:09, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's the whole point of allowing new users to do things, so they learn enough to become valuable contributors down the line. Checking the new pages feed I saw one article at the top of the list awaiting review. A few seconds later it had been patrolled. If PC is turned off, all the PC reviewers can turn their attention elsewhere.
If you think people are agitating for the removal of IP editing you're looking in the wrong place. The proposition in the March proposals RfC was to ban IP editing or never unprotect a semiprotected page. It was defeated nemo contradicente. Some quotes:
Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit.
There are plenty of people that come on Wikipedia reading, notice a problem and, as an IP, fix it.
If we block IP editing, we'll move one step closer to being like Citizendum. With all due respect to Sanger's efforts, visit Citizendum's website and see how spotty their articles are. There are some very well - known topics that don't have articles there. That's what happens when you make it hard to edit a wiki. Do you want that to happen to us?
81.9% of edits by unregistered users were not vandalism. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 17:57, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Strong agreement with 156.61.250.250. If you want to count edits that occurred as a result of our IP editing policy, count all of mine, because I started as an IP editor and would have never started if this had been one more website that requires registration. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:56, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion has now slowed. There is a clear consensus that this useful change should be implemented. Can someone please close accordingly. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 08:12, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I can count one person (Guy Macon) in both this discussion and the one at VPP who agrees with you. How is that clear consensus? --Ahecht (TALK PAGE) 16:16, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am tempted to apply a close as you requested. My close would be NO CONSENSUS based on a majority of one, and NO CONSENSUS based on a participation of 3 being grossly inadequate to propose a major sitewide change. If you want to seek a consensus for change I suggest you slap an RFC notice on here. That will get you participation and a close. Alsee (talk) 07:18, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Seconded. Not enough participation to ratify a major change. Samsara 07:23, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Editors may use or omit a comma before Jr. or Sr. so long as each article is internally consistent. Do not place a comma before a Roman numeral designation. Examples: Sammy Davis Jr.; Martin Luther King, Sr.; Otis D. Wright II, not Otis D. Wright, II.
Hopefully this will avoid ongoing arguments on which is the "right" form for individual subjects (based on their preferences or sources' preferences) and won't lead to editwarring (see MOS:DATERET for the guideline avoiding similar editwarring over date formats).
As flagged in the previous discussion, this raises the issue of commas appearing afterJr. and Sr.. All style guides state that, if a comma is used before, a matching comma must appear afterwards if the sentence continues—acting as an appositive, much like commas after dates in MDY format (MOS:DATEFORMAT) and after city–state combinations (MOS:COMMA).
Style guides on commas before and after Jr. and Sr.
Q. John Smith Jr. or John Smith, Jr.? John Smith III or John Smith, III?
A. Traditionally, it would be John Smith, Jr., and John Smith III. But beginning with the fourteenth edition of The Chicago Manual of Style (1993), the recommendation is to use no commas in either case (see paragraph 6.47 of the sixteenth edition):
John Smith Jr.
But please note that within text, if you decide to use the more traditional comma before Jr. or Sr., the function of the comma is to set off these abbreviations, so an additional comma is needed after the abbreviation if the sentence continues (as in my first sentence above).
Rule 8. Traditionally, if a person's name is followed by Sr. or Jr., a comma follows the last name: Martin Luther King, Jr. This comma is no longer considered mandatory. However, if a comma does precede Sr. or Jr., another comma must follow the entire name when it appears midsentence.
A comma would be used both before and after then designations of "Jr." or "Sr.," as long as the sentence continues. If the designation is at the end of the sentence, then a comma is used only before it.
For example: John James, Sr., was well regarded in the community. However, the community had no use for John James, Jr.
Sometimes the simplest point can cause us a problem when writing. For example, should "Jr." or "Sr." in a name be preceded by a comma?
Some stylebooks say no, others say yes, but the "nos" outnumber the "yeses."
However, those that specify no comma say you should follow the person's preference if you know it.
A point to remember is, if you use a comma before either of these designations, you must use one after it.
Unfortunately, many editors are not aware of this rule in English and sometimes argue against it. Therefore, I recommend this section be further amended as follows:
Editors may use or omit a comma before Jr. or Sr. so long as each article is internally consistent (Sammy Davis Jr. or Martin Luther King, Sr.). If using a comma before, also include a comma after Jr. or Sr. if the sentence continues (John D. Rockefeller, Jr., was an American financer and philanthropist...).
Do not place a comma before a Roman numeral designation (Otis D. Wright II, not Otis D. Wright, II).
[Support:] Yes, if a comma goes before, it goes after. Standard logical clause construction. NB. Much prefer the British style where Jr and Sr do not need the period. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support the use of proposed addition. Consistency is a poor justification for going against WP:UCRN. GregKaye 06:34, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:GregKaye - what does requiring the second comma have to do with WP:UCRN? Dohn joe (talk) 16:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dohn joe My personal preference is that we should generally use a form of name that corresponds to WP:RECOGNIZABILITY and WP:NATURALNESS. Unless there are other pressing concerns, these are the considerations we, I think, should predominantly follow the way things are normally done for that person. WP:UCRN presents that: "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." GregKaye 18:56, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:GregKaye - agreed. But again, what does that have to do with whether we allow "John Smith, Jr., was..." and/or "John Smith, Jr. was..."? This RfC is only about whether we require that second comma after Jr. or not, not how we present the name (except for cases below like the Rockefeller library). I'm still confused about the relevance of wp:ucrn. Dohn joe (talk) 19:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dohn joe My apologies for not understanding what you were saying. My support is mainly for the inclusion of examples such as "Sammy Davis Jr. or Martin Luther King, Sr.". I still think the commas content makes reasonable sense but you are right to point that this has nothing to do with issues relating to prevalence of use. GregKaye 19:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - What are you trying to do? The whole proposal that you have supported had no consensus. I checked the closed discussion, and you're still persistent on having all commas before successor or predecessor omitted. Also, you haven't contacted or pinged Go Phightins!, who accurately closed the previous discussion. Well, I'm still in favor of omitting a comma, but not when sources are divided or when consensus opposes it. This is instructional creep. --George Ho (talk) 07:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@George Ho: What are you on about? This RfC isn't about the comma before Jr. or Sr.—it's about the separate issue of providing guidance for the comma afterJr. or Sr.All style guides say if there's a comma before there must be a comma after. That's all this RfC seeks to add to the guideline for clarification. —sroc💬 15:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note that this proposal was already flagged in the previous RfC:
Note: This RfC only concerns the comma before Jr. and Sr. If the result allows for that comma, then a follow-up discussion may be necessary regarding guidance on a comma after Jr. or Sr.
The result of that RfC allows for the comma before, so this RfC is about the comma after, exactly as previously stated. —sroc💬 15:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My bad. If you're concerned about a comma after Jr or Sr, perhaps I was mistaken. I struck original vote, so I will make a fresher one. George Ho (talk) 18:37, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support - Look like an instructional creep, but a comma after Jr/Sr makes more sense when a comma before Jr/Sr is added. No comma before, no comma after, however. And I wouldn't care about regional differences as long as commas are properly used.
Oppose, it's an archaic style that's still listed in quite a few places and used in even less. The Jr. or Sr. without a comma has been the standard way of using the style as long as Jr. and Sr. have existed, or at least in my experience, which is almost as long. Official names, such as the Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial, don't use it, probably because it makes things look worse instead of better and is so uncommon that the mind latches onto it and won't let go, like some kind of little dog sitting there growling at the preceding period. Randy Kryn 10:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Randy Kryn: That would be a good argument to do away with the commas altogether, but that argument has been and gone. English construction and style guides universally agree that a comma before requires a comma after. The fact that some sources flout this rule is no reason for this encyclopedia to follow in their folly. —sroc💬 15:56, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The recently closed RFC closure on the issue of commas before Jr. or Sr. (essentially saying that we should have no rule other than "be internally consistent" within an article) reflected a practical and common sense approach that accounts for our lack of consensus on the issue. I think the same approach should be applied to the question of commas after... The important thing is for the style to be internally consistent within any given article. More than that is unnecessary instruction creep. Blueboar (talk) 13:33, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Blueboar: Style guides generally agree that commas may be included or omitted (the trend is to omit them) but all agree that a comma before requires a comma after. If we're consistent within each article about whether or not to have the comma before, "common sense" requires that we also be consistent about whether or not to include the comma after. —sroc💬 15:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm fairly certain this covention is completely unknown in British English - were any of the "all style guides" for BE? People should be more careful about this. Even in AE it doesn't seem to me to be what is usual. Just in case it is adopted it should be made clear that this applies within AE only, for ENGVAR purposes. Johnbod (talk) 14:01, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support – The following comma is required in both British English and American English, and always has been (I'm a Briton). If the form with the comma before is to be allowed, the following comma must also be required. RGloucester — ☎ 14:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is simply nonsense! Johnbod (talk) 15:17, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing "nonsense" about it. Yes, we don't generally use "junior" and "senior" suffixes in British English. However, the rules of comma usage remain the same. Completing the apposition requires a following comma. Take a look at this guide here, which explains the use of commas with appositives quite well. In the American context, one might look at this Chicago style guide bit, which notes the necessary nature of the following comma. RGloucester — ☎ 15:09, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Now I know why the British omit the period, so you do not have to argue of the mid sentence period. I agree that you should have a comma after a mid sentence period, except after Mr. and Dr. and others that are name prefixes, but that has nothing to do with changing the titles of articles. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:52, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It may be that all style guides that address the issue recommend using the second comma, but there are two complications. 1) Not all style guides even discuss this relatively minor point of punctuation. 2) In practice, many reputable sources leave out the second comma, regardless of the preferences of style guides. For example:
We have also already come across the case where WP editors have decided that the second comma might not be a part of the name of something. For example:
Leaving out the second comma in general does nothing to change the ability of our readers to comprehend the meaning of the sentence. Despite style guides' efforts, the second comma is quite often left out, even in reputable, professionally edited sources. Real-world usage shows that both using and leaving out the second comma is acceptable in English. WP should therefore allow both styles, as long as an article is internally consistent. Any particularly strong argument for including or omitting the second comma should be taken up on a case-by-case basis. Dohn joe (talk) 16:41, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Dohn joe: The fact that some sources don't follow proper punctuation is no reason for this encyclopedia to follow in their folly. Cases like the Memorial Parkway (where even the "official" sources disagreed on the punctuation) show exactly why we should have proper guidance on this to avoid recurring debates by editors who are singularly focussed on particular articles without a considered understanding of this specific punctuation issue. —sroc💬 03:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:sroc - the point is that style guides do not have a monopoly on what is "proper punctuation." Usage in reputable, professionally edited sources is good evidence of what is proper usage. When a significant portion of sources use a style (as with not using a second comma after Jr.), then WP should be allowed to permit usage of that style. Dohn joe (talk) 15:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Dohn joe: Prescriptivism vs descriptivism. I would rather defer to style guides on matters of style. If there was some leeway in some style guides then I might accept the argument, but all the style guides I've seen say comma before requires a comma after; none concede that the comma after is optional when the comma before is used. It's poor form for an encyclopedia's style guide to go against all style guides on proper punctuation. —sroc💬 04:22, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If this is folly, as you repeat, then the U.S. government is guilty of folly (not for the first time, if truth be told) over and over again. The comma after a Jr. or Sr. would change the name of institutions and memorials, of books and beanstalks. As I said, the use of comma after such a word combination misses the point of clear and clean language, and just adds more data into something which doesn't need to be explained. Randy Kryn 11:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The comma is there precisely because it makes for "clear" language by following standard logical rules, as explained by the mentioned style guides. Some sources fail (for example, it has been said that newspapers omit the comma after MDY dates and city–state conjunctions to economise on space in narrow columns) and often disagree (for example, the same geographical feature is "officially" named as "John D. Rockefeller, Junior, Memorial Parkway" in founding legislation; "John D. Rockefeller Jr. Memorial Parkway" on signs and publications; and "John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Memorial Parkway" on its website). Where others fail, we should strive for accuracy and encyclopedic standards. —sroc💬 11:40, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support—if editors are going to use a comma before Sr./Jr., then some form of punctuation is necessary to close the appositive. By default that is another comma, but it could be a semicolon, dash or terminal punctuation. We do this with constructions like "Milwaukee, Wisconsin", so we should be doing this with these types of names. (Dropping the comma completely in these names would simplify things greatly, of course.) Imzadi 1979→ 05:32, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The comma in the Jr. or Sr. is part of a person's proper name. "Milwaukee" is a proper name on its own, as is "Wisconsin", so in that form the comma is needed, but not if the comma is part of the proper name. Randy Kryn 1:38, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Except his name is often given simply as "Martin Luther King" and the "Jr." is only added as a distinguishing feature when needed; and in any case, this involves the rules of English punctuation which are supported by the cited style guides—you have provided no style guide references to contradict this. —sroc💬 01:43, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
King himself used the comma as part of his proper name. The U.S. government, in its naming of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial and Martin Luther King, Jr. Day have set the style in his case. Randy Kryn 1:48, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Support - on the basis of completing the apposition. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:52, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support as proposed. If anyone doubts this lack of clarity results in editwarring, guessagain. —sroc💬 01:38, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You began that editwar (I'd rather call it an edit disagreement, or edit snowball fight) by choosing the very prominent Dr. King page to place the awkward after-proper-name commas without a consensus being reached. The consistency in Wikipedia of not using the comma after King's name is present in using the names that the U.S. government has given to the Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial and Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. Randy Kryn 1:54, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
You may think it "awkward", but it's English. The alternative was to do away with commas before "Jr."/"Sr.", but the consensus went against that. Americans failing English punctuation is no excuse for Wikipedia to pander to them. —sroc💬 01:59, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, it's generally everyone but American's who are dropping the commas, though. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 09:53, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@SMcCandlish: I was responding to Randy Kryn's comment about US government sources. I don't care who's dropping the comma after; mismatched commas are wrong and an encyclopedia shouldn't settle for sub-standard punctuation. —sroc💬 17:47, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support a comma after when there is one before. – SJ + 15:15, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Yes, this is basic English punctuation. I'm skeptical that a Village pump (policy) RfC was needed for this. Minor clarification edits to MOS pages are discussed at their talk pages, or at the main WT:MOS talk page if the MOS subpage's talk page is poorly attended. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:56, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, I would have hoped this wouldn't be controversial, but alas my fear that this would court controversy was realised. —sroc💬 02:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It courts controversy only because MOS-bashing has become a wikisport (and a team one at that), while not everyone who writes Wikipedia has much training in writing, plus the human tendency to believe that a rule someone doesn't want to be bothered with is a wrong in the world. Competent writers, and reliable sources on English-language usage, all know that commas are balanced in cases like this. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's controversial simply because competent writers, and editors, such as the ones cited above from Routledge and Oxford, do in fact sometimes omit a following comma. An acceptable option in reliable sources should be an option here on WP. Dohn joe (talk) 17:00, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Evidence of usage that has managed to make it into print doesn't constitute reliable sourcing that such a style choice is widely acceptable in a formal register like encyclopedia writing. Routledge and Oxford as publishers have little to do with the output of Cromwell and Lischer, the authors of the books in question. While the writers were surely subject to some level of editorial revision, we have no insider data on why this usage was not corrected to something more standard; we can't suppose it was because officials at the publishers preferred it, or it was just an oversight, or the authors in each case lobbied hard for it because they thought their audience didn't like commas, or what. There's no evidence.
It certainly isn't the case that Oxford can be cited as some kind of authority of in favor of omitting that comma, or even being neutral on it. Oxford's own style guide under various titles doesn't address this exact case, but they do address the general case. With the comma in such a name, "Jr." or "Sr." is an appositive, a qualifier, added to the name. Oxford is clear on these in general: "Use a pair of commas when the apposition falls in the middle of a sentence; they function like a pair of parentheses or dashes, though they imply a closer relationship with the surrounding text". (New Harts Rules: The Handbook of Style for Writers and Editors, p. 68, Oxford U. Pr., 2005). That even neatly explains why we use commas, instead of some other convention like "Martin Luther King (Jr.)".
So, we do have four things here: 1) style/usage guides recommending commas before and after "Jr." and "Sr."; 2) guides not addressing this specific question but giving more general advice that inexorably leads to the same conclusion; 3) guides recommending or at least permitting the dropping of both commas (mostly news style guides, with focus on expediency); and 4) guides offering no applicable advice at all. The one relevant thing we do not have is style guides recommending dropping the second comma if the first is used. Even if a style manual can be found somewhere recommending no second comma, it would be dwarfed by the stack of books contradicting it. So there's really no debate to continue with on this point. It remains well sourced (in this thread and many before it) that reliable sources on English-language usage consistently say that commas are balanced in cases like this. The dropping of the second comma is fairly common in vernacular and journalistic writing (including books written by journalists). I catch myself doing it out of expediency pretty often. But it's not formal, precise writing, and it can lead to sentences that are difficult to parse correctly. Finally, WP is not bound to do what a numeric majority of external style guides do, anyway. MOS recommends what our consensus (collectively built and refined) determines is best for the encyclopedia's purpose and readership, not for the approval of pundits at any external publisher of style guides. An enormous number of WP:MOS-related and WP:AT-related arguments are predicated on approaching MOS/AT as if we're writing a style guide / naming convention for the world, instead of an in-house one for a single publication. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 18:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom and per Ahecht. If a comma is used before "Jr" or "Sr", the standard (and in my experience, the usual) style is to also use a comma after it. -sche (talk) 17:35, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
English policy: So blindly obvious, but...
Over the weekend I had an incident on Wikipedia that convinced me the following needs to be proposed as policy:
All entries in article space need to be in English
This page in a nutshell: English is the language of this particular Wiki. This helps us to assure that anything posted in article space meets the five pillars, as well as any other relevant policy.
Preamble
In order to assure all involved that any article satisfies the Five Pillars of Wikipedia, as well as Wikipedia's policies and guidelines the article needs to be able to be read. Since English is the language of this particular wiki, most users on this Wikipedia read English and communicate in English. Further, most of the users on this Wikipedia do not read any other language. Therefore it would be impossible to assure that any article meets the aforementioned Five Pillars and guidelines without being able actually understand what's being written. Therefore any article in the article namespace needs to be in English.
Instructions
Since Wikipedia assumes good faith, articles not in English can be moved to the Draft namespace and a tag requesting translation can be added there. That way, there is a mechanism for allowing a non-English submission to be considered for Wikipedia. Once the article is translated in Draft namespace and judged to meet all policies and applicable guidelines, it can then be moved to the article namespace.
Any article not in English posted in article namespace should be moved into the Draft namespace and a note to the submitting author must be sent informing them what has happened.
This is being done to verify that the article in question doesn't violate copyright, which is a pretty serious issue here, doesn't violate any office actions, and more simply put, that it doesn't violate any Wikipedia policy or guideline. This cannot be done if it's in a language that cannot be read on this Wikipedia (i.e. if it's not in English). We have other versions of Wikipedia for other languages, therefore, it's not an issue of exclusion, but rather one of making sure that the article meets all guidelines and policies.
Supportall non-English articles should generally be moved to draftspace on sightwhen they don't qualify for speedy deletion but also can't be fixed up in a short amount of time. With the current process, if someone creates an article about some non-notable nonsense in English then it gets speedied in five seconds, but if the article happens to be in some other language then we give it a two-week grace period to see if it gets translated and/or it may get forgotten entirely -- this doesn't make any sense to me and dealing with these articles is pretty annoying. — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 11:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC) amended — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 17:23, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Amending my !vote: this doesn't necessarily have to be a new policy page, it can also be written into some other policy or information page, and described as a standard/approved/okay method of dealing with non-English articles. But also it doesn't have to be mandatory to move every non-English article into draftspace (if an editor feels that it will be easy enough to turn that article into something worthy of inclusion on Wikipedia, i.e. they understand what the topic is and have the time to work on it). — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 14:55, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is the essence of just do it! If you can translate the article, do it! But if you can't or don't have the time right now, add it to the list at WP:PNT and you or someone else can get to it soon. Is it easy enough to move an article back from Drafts to the mainspace, or does this require an admin to move over a redirect? —sroc💬 15:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
After moving an article to draftspace, the redirect that gets created after the move should be speedied as R2. Cross-namespace redirects -- articlespace redirects that redirect to the Draft namespace should get deleted. So, assuming some time has passed and the redirect has been deleted, it will be easy to move the draft back to mainspace. — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 16:11, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I just saw this. All the more reason to move the article to drafts if you can't fix it right away, and it can be moved back when it's done. Not that the move needs to be mandatory, but they shouldn't linger in the article space unnecessarily. —sroc💬 16:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Another amendment: as said I don't necessarily support the creation of a new policy, but, wherever it is written, we should not include this part: "This cannot be done if it's in a language that cannot be read on this Wikipedia (English)." -- we can indeed judge articles even if they're in a language we can't understand, it can often be possible to determine (like by using a translator) if an article is total baloney or not. We can do it and we're allowed to, too. (And then tag for speedy (with an explanation for deleting admin if necessary) instead of moving to draftspace.) — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 17:14, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support-ish. I don't see that we need to enshrine in policy the fact that this is the English Wikipedia, but I'm a big fan of the idea of automatically moving non-English submissions into Draft-space. Yunshui雲水 11:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Anything that makes WP:ENGLISH stronger is welcome in my view. --IJBall (talk) 13:06, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - yes, I think that this should be obvious; however, I think that draftifying non-English articles is better than either keeping them in the mainspace or deleting them outright. עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 13:10, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support This will only have positive effects.Bosstopher (talk) 13:11, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support As per above. A no-brainer IMO. Regards Aloha27 talk 13:13, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I don't know if there's something in the water but there seem to be more and more non-English articles turning up at NPP (or simply I'm noticing them more), and investigating why people are not inclined to put them in the right language Wikipedia is probably also worth investigating. Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 13:52, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support as per above. But are there any non-English articles in mainspace, or is this preventive? Robert McClenon (talk) 13:54, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a fairly common sense proposal. It is preferable to the current status quo of tagging them for translation and leaving them in article space. Winner 42Talk to me! 13:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support, I have seen non-English articles in mainspace before, most of which get mopped up in the NPP process. I have also seen articles that have been vandalized and left with completely non-English text for months though, so I would add the cautionary note of "any editor who is preparing to move a non-English page to the draft namespace must check the edit history to see if there is an English version that can be restored". Lukeno94(tell Luke off here) 14:26, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Duh. This is the English wiki, if someone wants an article in a different language, it should be directed to that language's wiki. GregJackPBoomer! 15:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Lingua anglicana est universale.--Sigehelmus (talk) 22:55, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support it really is a no-brainer. Get them into draft space so they can be translated and verified more easily. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:53, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support any other policy only creates more work and time put on the back of volunteer editors. I have enough trouble now assessing potential vandalism articles or good faith reversions when I cannot assess the content because I speak English (and Haitian, but no haitian topics have come across my path). Even assessing articles written with heavy jargon related to video gaming are difficult for me to assess without the proper vocabulary!Bfpage |leave a message 21:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
English policy: Oppose
Oppose creating a new policy to say we can do this. There is nothing in any policy that says we can not move (not cut and paste) an article that is not ready from the mainspace to the draft space. An article that is not written in English is not ready for the mainspace so there is nothing stopping us from moving it. The creator should be notified where the article was moved to and why, so they can work on it. -- GBfan 12:14, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well that's an option too: we don't need a policy for this, if an editor is still allowed to move an article into draftspace for the main reason that it's not in English. — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 12:31, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the proposed policy as unnecessary. I have an alternative proposal set out below which I think is a lot simpler and easier to implement. —sroc💬 14:05, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is a good example of an idea with a lot of merit, but some flaws that need addressing. A candidate for the Idea Lab to work out the kinks before asking for an up or down vote. Examples of kinks:
Suppose I run across an article in mainspace in another language, which when translated, is absolute gibberish, and qualifies as a G1. Of course, after moving to draft space I can delete it as a G1, but this policy, as written, requires that I move it to draft space first. If I do not, I am potentially santionable for violating policy.
Rinse and repeat for an article which is a clear copyvio, but in another language.
Or an article which is an attack. Yes, this could be fixed, but there are other issues to address. It states that the article will be moved to draft to verify that the article in question doesn't violate copyright . Moving an article to draft space doesn't solve the copyright problem. We don't have an exception that allows copyvios in draft space. There are other issues as well, so it isn't the case that a couple minor copy edits will make this acceptable as is. That said, it has promise.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
These are problems that we already have. Currently it's not possible to speedy an article simply because it's non-English, and often that's a problem because we can't tell whether the article complies with policy or not. It could be blatant vandalism but we have to keep it for at least two weeks until someone can identify what we're dealing with. Moving that kind of an article out of mainspace (and to somewhere where search engines can't find it) is a good compromise. — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 15:07, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is possible to speedy an existing article in another language. (After re-reading, I guess you are saying that simply being in non-English is not a sufficient reason for CSD, but as I'll explain, I can identify valid CSDs even though my language skills are minimal.) I can tell that something is a copyvio if it is clearly an exact copy of a published item. Google translate is deficient for some purposes, but if Google Translate produces John Doe is a well-know child molester I don't need a competent human translator to tell me it can be deleted. If the article is created by a banned or blocked user, I don't even need to translate the content. Yet, this proposed policy says I should move it to draft space first. Why?--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Does it really say that? That you must? I'm not seeing it. If you can tell that an article qualifies for speedy then of course you can speedy it, I don't think anyone would argue that. Though in cases like this you may have to leave a note behind explaining how it qualifies, if it's not immediately obvious to admins who do the deleting. — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 17:03, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as unnecessary bureaucracy. Speaking as one of the half dozen or so editors who handle non-English articles at PNT every single day, we always deal with these articles in the best and most efficient way possible. This can be one of many ways, sometimes they're translated, becoming valuable articles, sometimes they are speedy deleted if they meet a criteria (and yes I'll admit that I usually IAR delete the essays and rants we often get), sometimes they are prodded/blpprodded or afd'd if we think they're not worth translating, if we think they are worth an article but can't translate them ourselves we leave them (and after two weeks they are prodded and deleted it not translated) and yes we sometimes userfy them if we feel they were created in good faith and that . To just point out how small a problem this is, currently there are 6 articles (out of 6,828,821) that are entirely not in English, 3 of which are currently prodded. Trying to enforce a firm rule that all non-English articles be immediately userfied is just overkill, and a good way to prevent potential good articles, the current system works just fine, the article which started this whole drama-fest being a perfect example.--Jac16888Talk 17:18, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:CREEP. We already have processes for non-English articles. While they are not perfect they work well enough, better than this clunky idea would anyway. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:04, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Jac16888 who says the current system is working fine. Also, we assume good faith until shown otherwise. We don't assume the article may be "dodgy" just because we can't read it. SpinningSpark 18:22, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There is already an established procedure for translating non-English articles, Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English. This happened to me once. I created a new article by copy-pasting the French language version, then proceeded to translate it in place. I expected this to be a quick task, but got sidetracked and then interrupted by an offline event. (I should have created it in the draft space, but this requires an admin request.) For my trouble I got templated that I should first list the article for translation, and then come back and translate it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:07, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
* Comment Actually it doesn't require admin permissions. I've created a draft space article and I'm definitely not an admin. KoshVorlonRassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 20:14, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
True! But unfortunately moving the draft article to the mainspace causes a redirect to be left behind, which then requires a CSD (admin request) to delete. So I try to avoid this whenever I possibly can. Sorry, I did not make myself clear. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:53, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Redirects from draftspace to mainspace are okay. AFC reviewers leave them behind all the time. — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 09:06, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Hawkeye7: When moving an article there is an option to not leave behind a redirect = uncheck the "leave a redirect behind" box. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:42, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Ceyockey: Not true if you aren't an admin. Though I have been pushing for allowing this permission for non admins recently, it has been met with resistance. EoRdE6(Come Talk to Me!) 00:45, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@EoRdE6: Ahhh. I did not realize this was an admin-only function. Apologies and thanks for highlighting that. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:58, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose revoking WP:PNT#Standard procedures without the proposer either acknowledging its long-standing acceptance or notifying the page that he hopes to revoke it (perhaps he just didn't know that it exists? Nobody can keep up with everything around here, because there are so many pages). In fact, most of the above "votes" don't seem to know that we have a procedure for handling such pages. I expect they all would have guessed that "edit-war to blank the page" isn't it, though. Jeraphine, Yunshui, IJBall, Od, Bosstopher, Aloha27, Ritchie333, Robert, Winner, Luke, Greg, I'd be interested in knowing how many of you were aware of the standard procedure before this discussion, and whether you think that years-old advice is probably an adequate approach, or if you still think we need yet another policy or guideline for the occasional article that isn't written in English. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I was aware of the standard procedure when !voting, and have looked at and speedied persian article on WP:PNT from time to time. I voted under the assumption that if this passed, PNT would still function, only pages translated would be temporarily moved to draftspace first. This seems like the most common sense solution.Bosstopher (talk) 21:50, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I can see why a reasonable person might hope for that, but this policy would actually preclude the standard procedure. The proposed policy prohibits leaving a non-English article in the mainspace for two weeks (= it prohibits "the standard procedure"). The editors at PNT do not handle articles anywhere else (by choice, and those WP:VOLUNTEERS are the only ones who get to make that choice). It is not possible to have "the new policy" and "the standard procedure" operating at the same time. "There must never be articles needing translation in the mainspace" and "We only translate articles in the mainspace" cannot function at the same time.
The potential for confusion is why I'm unhappy about the failure to be more explicit about the policy's effects. I am worried that some people are voting for a benign-sounding, commonsensical statement without understanding that the intended outcome is to eliminate a long-standing process. This proposal amounts to revoking PNT's standard procedure, although it doesn't come out and say so in ways that will be clearly understood by everyone. If you want to change an old process, that's fine, but IMO you should say so, using words that cannot possibly be misunderstood (e.g., "I propose stopping the bad old way and replacing it with this obviously better idea:").
The immediate history also gives me pause: The precipitating incident is that the proposer blanked an article (three times in three hours, if the comment below is correct) and was told that the standard procedure is to tag it and wait for two weeks. He was not satisfied with waiting for two weeks, so he proposes here a policy to override it. However, he does not mention the existing standard procedure. He gives only the briefest mention that he lost a dispute because of it. The sole practical effect of his proposed policy is to revoke the process that caused him to lose the dispute. He makes no acknowledgement of how this proposal affects longstanding processes. I've spent years around policy pages, and I can tell you that this situation is a fairly reliable recipe for disaster and drama. If you want to kill an old process, then you need to tell to people that you're doing it.
Note that I don't mind changing old processes, if that's what people want to do. I've done it myself. My only requirement is that supporters understand that's the point of the proposal and say that they're intentionally replacing an old process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:38, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's very simple to keep the old and new processes in place at the same time. You just apply all the same rules to the drafts that you would to non english articles, and speedy them if no one translates after two weeks. A venue for translation is still maintained and you don't end up with old non-english articles on god-knows-what languishing about in draftspace. Best of both worlds.Bosstopher (talk) 23:46, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This proposal doesn't actually do what you want it to do. (The alternate below does something close, but the original does not.)
In my experience it is never "simple" to force volunteers do things that they do not choose to do, and the volunteers at PNT have already said that they have no interest in doing what you want them to do. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:43, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
First of all I am someone who volunteers from time to time at PNT (as is GregJackP who supported the proposal and responded to you below), and in my capacity as someone who does so I believe its better to not have completely non-english articles languishing about in mainspace, and I would completely willingly move non-english articles to draft space. Also can you point me to exactly where the collective you refer to as the "volunteers at PNT" have unanimously opposed this decision? As for the proposal not doing what i think its supposed to do, this seems to be another example of an incredibly simple and beneficial change being bogged down in Village pump bureaucracy. I'm sure the closing admin will be able to interpret what I mean.Bosstopher (talk) 16:48, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I base my statement about the volunteers at PNT on the comment below: "There is a long-held consensus, re-affirmed just a few weeks ago, at PNT that draft articles do not fall within our scope of work..." by User:Jac16888. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:13, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for directing me to that. Although I'd forgotten about it, I actually took part in that discussion and at the time (although I didnt write it because enough other people had) was opposed to the idea of putting all non-english drafts in PNT. However, I think this case is very different to that, as only drafts that were intitially posted in article space would be brought to PNT for temporary holding, as opposed to any gibberish written in draftspace. I think it's an apples and oranges situation. Bosstopher (talk) 20:22, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I was aware also, and have tagged many such articles. I've also watched articles not be translated for significant periods of time. However, I don't think that we need to keep articles which are not written in English. BTW, your comment was very condescending, I guess us mere non-WMF editors wouldn't have thought of other options. GregJackPBoomer! 22:53, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's worth noting that the existing standard procedure predates the existence of the Draft namespace, and therefore might be due an overhaul with the new option in mind. That's probably something for the appropriate talkpage, though. It's my opinion that the suggestions offered here, especially the alternative version below, constitute an improvement on the current process. Yunshui雲水 07:50, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I agree with Beeblebrox that this is nothing but WP:CREEP. There is no need to have a policy or guideline to state that the English Wikipedia should in English. —Farix (t | c) 00:31, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose (a) the proposal incorrectly implies that there is a single english language and (b) articles have very good and well established grounds for using non-English languages (be it Japanese, Arabic; Latin or native american languages) in places (alternative names, linguistic examples, etc, etc); many articles would be significantly impaired with those. Stuartyeates (talk) 10:43, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per several comments above. Most notably, we already delete or translate articles written in foreign languages, so this proposed policy does not actually accomplish anything. As such, it is unnecessary WP:CREEP. Resolute 14:10, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Knowledgekid87 Bias huh ? Note the proposal is for articles not templates (I'm also a self-described Otaku :) ) TheFarix I actually agree, this shouldn't have to be policy, I would have thought it common sense, however this little incident told me otherwise. SpinningSpark AGF is not a suicide pact, further, author editors, even in good faith sometimes run afoul of copyright concerns because they're not aware of how ours works (and BLP as well ). KoshVorlonRassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The template makes both Japanese and English text appear on the page, we also have Japanese names as article titles and as character names (as such the name would be included in the article's body) per WP:COMMONNAME. By all in English do you mean all content of a given article? I want to have an open mind but please specify as it sounds too broad if I read "All entries in article space need to be in English" right. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:29, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@KoshVorlon: I would support your proposal for entries that are written fully in another language or a certain percentage of the article, there has to be some kind of footnotes/exceptions though if this is to become policy. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:40, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Kosh, you continue to refer to your "little incident" as why this change needs to be made, and yet the article which started all of this (Detective Willy for anyone not already aware), was, once properly reported to PNT, translated and then prodded within a few hours of being created, similarly a dozen+ other articles have been created and dealt with in the time since then - I don't see how any of this is problematic. If anything your incident shows that, when procedure if actually followed, the system we have works great --Jac16888Talk 20:41, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Hard cases make bad law" or in this case bad policy/guidelines. It's clear in that discussion that you didn't follow already existing procedures for handling such types of articles. But I honestly don't see the need for a policy over just one incident. —Farix (t | c) 20:20, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. The current process is working fine, and no non-English article is kept any longer than necessary. De728631 (talk) 18:30, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: no pressing need to adopt an English only policy for the first appearance of an article. A working proceedure is in place. — Neonorange (talk) 21:22, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment For those opposing, please see this recent posting to WP:AN where the the reverse happened. Just so I'm totally clear, I'm not suggesting that if we have an article about a Japanese term, or a Spanish term, that we can't use the Spanish or Japanese word itself, nor am I suggesting that that word be written out in the English alphabet. What I'm suggesting is that any article in article space needs to be in English, currently we're getting entries in article space that are 100% not English. I'm suggesting that they be placed in draft space where they can be translated , then judged to be in compliance with all applicable Wikipedia policies and guildelines. That's it, simple, obvious and very much common sense. KoshVorlonRassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:00, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You mean the posting which shows that when a non-english article is submitted to the proper place, it is dealt within just a few hours? A perfect example to me of how well the current PNT system works, when of course it it is actually used rather than ignored--Jac16888Talk 16:32, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if you're intentionally misunderstood my point there or not. By "proper place", I mean PNT, as in, a user followed procedure and logged it there, and then it was resolved shortly afterwards. In fact had you done so yourself, or had you actually moved it to the draftspace properly (that being one way we do deal with non-english articles already anyway), there would have been no issue. I feel I have to ask this, as you've never actually addressed this: please can you tell me that you understand why blanking a page or copying and pasting it to another place is a bad thing--Jac16888Talk 17:00, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jac16888 - yeah, I did. I consider article space to not be the proper place for articles not in English, rather I'd say Draft space is. The article was in article space when I first ran across it. Yes, I agree PNT acted correctly by translating the article, I wasn't trying to change the process that got the article translated, rather the fact that the article should have been in article space prior to translation. KoshVorlonRassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:29, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - you lost me at "Further, most of the users on this Wikipedia do not read any other language." That's absurd. Where did you get this information? I don't remember indicating what languages I can read when I created an account. It seems that, because you can't read any other languages, you assume everyone is the same? Otherwise why would you assume this? Further, how often are there articles that are entirely in another language that are not copyright violations or able to be removed for another basic reason? Why is this policy necessary? I looked at the ANI you suggested as cause for the proposal and I agree with Jac16888 - your insistence that you should be able to blank a page because it's in another language is not sound. It's laziness at best, censorship at worse. —МандичкаYO 😜 00:28, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, what I mean is the language of this Wikipedia is English. I see your name is in Russian (ok, Cryllic , so it might not be Russian as other languages use the Cryllic Alphabet ) assuming you ARE Russian, would it make sense to have an article in ru.wikipedia.org in English rather than in Russian, even though there may be people on that Wikipedia that read English ? Of course not, it's common sense, the lingua franca on that Wikipedia is Russian, just the the lingua franca on this wikipedia is English. Articles should conform to the lingua franca, obviously there may be portions of the article that need to be in a different language (reliable references in other languages, a term in another language that needs to be in. That kind of thing. ). What we should not have in an article of any sort , written completely in another language. KoshVorlonRassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:29, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What irks me more is how we have maps that are written in different languages being used (Examples: Battle maps, road maps, ect...). Yeah the maps are encyclopedic but unless you speak the language there is no way to understand them. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:54, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A good caption on the map can usually address that problem adequately. There's also a brand-new tool for making charts and maps (links at Wikipedia:Graphs and charts#Vega) that should make it much easier to translate vector-based maps. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:32, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: We don't need a WP:POLICY for this. That's overkill. Userspacing or deleting these things is already standard operating procedure. [PS: The expression is "blindingly obvious", not "blindly obvious"; it's a metaphoric reference to a very bright light.] — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 09:47, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose PNT works pretty well as far as I have seen, don't fix what ain't broke. This proposal also seems kind of pointy to me. Fyddlestix (talk) 23:19, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why an article could not both be (1) moved into draftspace and (2) listed at PNT. Wholly non-English articles where it's hard to even determine the subject, are not ready for articlespace, and they shouldn't be immune from our usual deletion criteria (like A7) simply because we can't understand what's going on in those articles. — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 12:42, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I note that some of the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English § Pages for consideration have some English-language content and some foreign-language content requiring translation, so these would not be ripe for deletion and leaving them in article space may attract users to bring them up to grade. There are some articles, however, that are entirely in a foreign languages and have been listed for some time:
That's just the ones that are over the two-week period. This shows that while the system can sometimes work quickly (as in the case of Detective Willy), articles can languish in article space waiting for attention. This being the case, I would support WP:PNT being revised to encourage moving articles to draft space until they are translated, perhaps then allowing a longer period before nominating them for deletion to give them a better chance of being salvaged. I'm not convinced this needs to be enshrined in a separate policy, however. —sroc💬 13:43, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This has nothing to do with varieties of English. — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 12:30, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Question: Will this be appended to, or be a new part of, the pre-existing WP:ENGLISH? Or will these be merged together? If not, how will this work?... --IJBall (talk) 12:33, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion: As this is the case, I suggest that the new policy's "shortcut" should become "WP:ENGLISH" if adopted, and the "old" WP:ENGLISH's shortcut should become something line WP:ENGLISHTITLE or some such... --IJBall (talk) 13:53, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Changing the target of shortcuts if often a bad idea, because previous usages of the shortcut will then all point to the wrong target. — Jeraphine Gryphon(talk) 14:33, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, agreed. But if this proposal passes, I think it may be warranted. At least, it should be discussed. --IJBall (talk) 15:54, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think changing the description of the process would be better than a "policy" change, but am still wondering about whether any change in normal practice is necessary. In any case, it might be appropriate to change WP:English into something like a disambiguation page pointing to a number of pages that also deal with the use of English (e.g. pages needing translation, diacritics, transliteration etc.).--Boson (talk) 19:27, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: In at least one country where English is the most widely used language, requiring English, or mandating English is a politically fraught topic (see English First). Also in en.Wikipedia, it seems. Better to ease along with what has worked for 5,000,000 articles. — Neonorange (talk) 02:22, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I hope no-one minds that I've fixed a typo in the above proposal, and made the wording of one sentence a bit clearer: it had said "a language that cannot be read on this Wikipedia (i.e. English)", which made it sound like English was a language that could not be read on this Wiki. [1]-sche (talk) 17:39, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Alternative proposal for dealing with foreign-language articles
The proposed new policy is unnecessary and would conflict with existing processes, such as Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English (WP:PNT), which would then need to be re-worked. Instead, in order to streamline things and avoid fracturing, I would recommend amending WP:PNT to change the process for dealing with articles entirely (or almost entirely) in foreign languages as follows:
I'd like to take this opportunity to acknowledge KoshVorlon's insight in highlighting this issue and getting the discussion going.
I would like to add that my proposed process doesn't need to be mandatory: if an article in a foreign language is obviously a copyvio, vandalism, etc., it can be sent straight to speedy deletion as usual without having to be moved to Draft first. This process is intended for articles that could survive if they are translated into English. —sroc💬 17:08, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Not because I disagree with us KoshVorlon's idea, but because we don't need a policy, we need a process. As a new page patroller, I routinely move articles to draft space as an alternative to deletion, or as an alternative to leaving really incomplete content in article space. If either of these proposals passes, someone should follow up with the Twinkle developers to make sure that this multi-step process can be semi-automated.- MrX 14:35, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I'd be equally happy with this proposal (and hear hear to getting the process Twinklified). Yunshui雲水 14:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Has the same net effect as the above policy, but is a more efficient implementation. Per MrX I would like to see Twinkle support moving articles to draft space more easily. I would also like to here other editors thoughts on moving other types of very-low quality articles by new editors into draft space without going through AfD to do it. Winner 42Talk to me! 14:44, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support – OK, this sounds good as well. --IJBall (talk) 15:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support It seems clear that KoshVorlon's idea is based on an actual problem (and not an imaginary one) but I am skittish about adding still more rules to Wikipedia's already large collection. This looks like it would dovetail well with the existing structure. Also, "most, if not all read no other language"? Mis seis años de clases de español no están de acuerdo contigo. WP:COMMONSENSE already covers the idea that the English Wikipedia must be in English, and this looks like it would protect Wikipedia from copyright violations without overdoing it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:15, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As noted above, there are articles entirely in non-English that may qualify as a CSD. If this policy is approved, it means if I find an article in Spanish written by a banned user, I cannot simply delete it as a G5, but I must first move it to Draft space. This is the very definition of silly bureaucracy. On a more general note, what is the reluctance to use the Idea Lab to sort out a sensible approach?--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:05, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This would not be a policy. It would be a process that you can choose to use, or not. Neither this nor the previous proposal would prevent other deletion processes from being used as needed. You say that this is the definition of a silly bureaucracy, but suggest sending it to the Idea Lab. Irony?- MrX 17:23, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Sphilbrick: Are you saying this to oppose Kosh's proposed policy or my proposed amendment to WP:PNT? Articles could still be deleted without being moved to Draft first, at least with my proposal, so your reasoning doesn't hold. —sroc💬 17:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Given that the original was proposed as a new Policy, and this is labeled as an Alternate proposal, I thought it was intended to be alternative proposal for a policy. I now see it is an alternate proposal for a rewording of a process, so it doesn't contain the same weight as a policy. Still, my objection remains. The proposal step one says Move the article into the Draft namespace. I disagree. I'd start with Determine whether it qualifies as a CSD as is.If not, or indeterminate, move into the Draft namespace But this is OTTOMH and could use word smithing. Re "irony" I think it is misplaced. I am a big fan of bureaucracy, when sensible. We ought to have well-thought out rules for handling solutions, and well-thought out processes for dealing with issues. What I oppose is mindless bureaucracy, such as moving an article to Draft space, then deleting it when it is perfectly obvious it should be deleted as is. The entire concept of the Idea Lab is that it is difficult, if not impossible, to write up new Policies, and there ought to be a place to work on them, and get them ready for an up or down vote. Both the original and the alternate proposals qualify. Neither were ready for prime time. Both has some good ideas that I could support if the issues were addressed. The Idea Lab is intended as a place to address them. I get why people want to come here first, because they think their idea is so good it can be supported exactly as worded, or maybe with a tiny word change, but they miss that it often takes a robust discussion of issues to come up with good wording for a new proposal. This is more true today than it was in the early days of WP, when there was so low-hanging fruit, and it might have been reasonable to slap together a policy and approve it.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:09, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Sroc: I oppose the policy proposed by Kosh as written, for the reasons I outlined (and there are more objections, I just didn't think it was necessary to be exhaustive.) I oppose the alternative wording of WP:PMT. The existing process has a set of steps for entire articles. Your proposed step 1, which presumably replaces the existing step 1, says Move the article into the Draft namespace. Maybe you think it is implicit that you can delete via CSD before this step, but that's not what it says.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:16, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Sphilbrick: Nothing in my proposal seeks to usurp current deletion policy, and I've expressly said in my further comment that articles could still be deleted as usual without having to move them to Draft namespace first. I haven't set out the exact wording as I was just seeking ro assess general support—the exact implementation might be put to an RfC if necessary—but I was especially hoping to point out that although Kosh's intentions were good, that doesn't mean we have to leap to the first proposal (i.e., a new policy) and alternatives should be considered. —sroc💬 19:08, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose also per WP:CREEP. We don't need a new policy, or a new process. And I do not like setting a precedent that anyone can just move an article into draft space on a whim, that will put us on a slippery slope. The correwct way to currently deal with such issues is to put the great big {{translate}} tag on the article, list it at pages needing translation, and add one the appropriate tag from WP:PNT/T to the creating user's talk page. I don't see how temporarily hiding it in the draft namespace on top of all that is any better. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't disagree with @Beeblebrox: on many things, so I'm probably wrong here, but I wouldn't mind if we were more aggressive in moving articles into draft space. However, I'd prefer to do it as part of a comprehensive overhaul of the review process, in which articles which aren't quite ready for prime time were moved to Draft space, and I see articles written in a foreign language (which are otherwise not eligible for CSD) as an important special case. However, I worry that Draft may become a wasteland, so I wouldn't support it unless we had some good processes for clearing it out. I'm struggling with this because my position is closer to Kosh's and Sroc's than my opposes may suggest. I, too, have run across articles in main space, written entirely in another language, and thought that moving them into the Draft space might be a good next step. But while I can think of such examples, getting from a couple examples to a policy or even a process is trickier than some seem to realize.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:25, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Beeblebrox: My counter-proposal is not really a "new process" but refining an existing one. In fact, moving an article to Draft namespace may save potential articles that just need to be translated that might otherwise be hastily deleted just because the current (arbitrary) two-week time limit has passed. —sroc💬 19:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I now see the language in wp:PNT I had missed earlier Articles that are not in English are still subject to all other forms of speedy deletion should they meet the criteria. That mitigates my concern, but emphasizes the need to improve that page. When I see a process page with a list of steps, it seems reasonable that I should start with step 1.
In fact, one is expected to carry out some unnumbered steps first, which I will number, with the smartaleck convention of keeping the existing numbering intact:
Step -2: If someone speaks the language the article is written in and can state that it is not worth translating, the item should be moved to AfD or tagged with {{prod}}
Step -1: If the article is a mere copy of (all or part of) an article in a foreign-language Wikipedia, it can just be tagged with {{db-foreign}} to get added to Wikipedia:Candidates for speedy deletion
Step 0: Check to see if other CSD criteria apply
Step 1 (existing): Use the notice {{notenglish|NameOfLanguage}} ...
Step 1 (proposed by you):Move the article into the Draft namespace.
Did you ever read the book Onion John? (I loved it, my daughter hated it), John waswanted a barn door hinge for the door on his house, because the wood is so rotten, standard house hinges won't hold. The town decides that they shouldn't just do the minor fix, they should replace the whole house. It goes badly. Which is unfortunate for me, because I'm looking at your proposed replacement of step 1 with a different step, and I'm noticing that the house is falling down, and think we ought to fix the house, while the lesson in the story is that this approach ends badly. So I don't know what to do, but I am still unhappy about tinkering with a process and ignoring the glaring problems.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:35, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Sphilbrick: I haven't read that book, but I see your point. I agree WP:PNT could use some work and can probably be simpler to follow. I would support a re-working of WP:PNT to solve the underlying issues and incorporate the use of Draft namespace (at whatever stage); I think that would be more productive than a new policy (which would only make WP:PNT harder to follow).
The comments here suggest an emerging consensus that: (1) something needs to be done to prompt utilising the Draft namespace for articles in languages other than English that need attention before being re-admitted to article namespace; (2) a new policy is not necessary or desirable to achieve this; (3) WP:PNT should be re-worked to address this (amongst fixing the barn generally). Perhaps this should be workshopped on the Wikipedia talk:Pages needing translation into English talk page? —sroc💬 21:27, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Beeblebrox and SPhilbrick. GregJackPBoomer! 19:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I feel I need to make another clarification here in regards to this counter-proposal, it will read a bit odd at first, but bear with me. WP:PNT is not a translation project (keep going): it is an article crisis-centre, along the lines of Wikipedia:Copyright problems, Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and more. Just like those pages we focus on a specific issue and we fix it however we can. There is a long-held consensus, re-affirmed just a few weeks ago, at PNT that draft articles do not fall within our scope of work, as they do not fall under many other "problem article" pages, to change that would be to swamp us with hundreds of pages that are simply not a problem for Wikipedia. Wikipedia:Translation is the translation project, it is there that editors specifically looking at translating articles (properly I mean, not just dropping non-English articles into the articlespace) --Jac16888Talk 21:40, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Jac16888: Thanks for the insight. Do you think this would work better if articles that have not received attention after the two-week period, and which otherwise do not obviously meet any deletion criteria, be moved to the Draft namespace then? Thus, all articles in foreign languages: (1) would be marked with a maintenance tag and listed at WP:PNT, as they are now; (2) after two weeks, would then moved to Draft namespace where someone could recover it in due course if they felt inclined; (3) could be deleted at any time just as with any article or draft subject to the deletion criteria. —sroc💬 22:35, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That could be done, but chances are that if after two weeks a page hasn't been translated by the creator or anybody else, it never will be.--Jac16888Talk 23:02, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I dont see the earlier proposal as clashing with this one, but oh well.Bosstopher (talk) 20:15, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - first, there is already a process that works fine. If the good people who patrol WP:PNT felt there needed to be a new policy and their current routine wasn't working, I would defer to them. Instead this seems to me to be about an editor who randomly came across a page in Spanish and doesn't like that his decision to blank it kept getting reverted. Secondly, moving them to userspace decreases the likelihood that an editor who doesn't patrol WP:PNT will come across the article and help translate it. I strongly feel tagging the article with "please translate me if you can" is the best approach. —МандичкаYO 😜 00:38, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, but do clarify: Existing processes are working. User:Sphilbrick's note above about "Step -2", etc., indicates that extant procedure needs clarification, but that can be done without a proposal like this, simply by amending the PNT instructions. His "smartaleck" list (with adjusted numbering) is actually a good draft of what to use. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 15:05, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
RfC: Should the holder of a political office be linked within an infobox more than once (i.e. as the successor), when they have already been linked (e.g. as the vice president, predecessor, lieutenant, etc.)?
WP:OVERLINK (spirit of the guideline) and that this issue is already covered there
Having recently closed an RfCdiscussion at an article regarding this a similar issue, I will not be expressing an opinion here (in the spirit of neutrality). I'm simply advocating consistency, in the hope to unify the style that should be used when this occurs throughout the encyclopedia. —Godsy(TALKCONT) 05:23, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"equal[ing] out the reasons.... [in the spirit of]... fair[ness]" [2] some more possible Reasons to Oppose-
It looks less professional and more cluttered
Harder on the eyes to follow with continual alternating colors
Multiple links in an infobox are simply unnecessary
Strong support - any place where readers are likely to expect links, we should give them those links. While in prose text there are issues with some browsers (so I ubderstand, when it comes to browsers for the blind), these issues don't come up as much in infoboxes. And if someone wants to follow up, for example, on all Israeli prime ministers since 1990, they would expect a link to the next prime minister for the 1992-1995 term of Yitzhak Rabin. עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 13:06, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - WP:OVERLINK does exist for a reason, and it is best that we apply it where practical; however, we need to actually apply common sense before going to endless lengths to ensure that every last policy or guideline is met. Dustin(talk) 11:35, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - WP:OVERLINK says "Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes". That seems pretty explicit, so why is IAR listed under "some possible Reasons to Support"? There's no IAR necessary. Unlike an article, which has a top-to-bottom flow/narrative, infoboxes and tables are things people scan for particular information -- and we should have that information linked. To be clear, though, I don't think this requires additional language be added to any of the guidelines unless consensus opposes. If supported it's just a reaffirmation of what WP:OVERLINK already says. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 14:53, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I try to use common sense as well. While I hate overlinking (everyone knows what an rabbit is) I frequently relink when a lot of names are being used or when information is lenghty and/or difficult to understand, as in a medical article. I try to put myself in the place of a person that has no previous knowledge of the subject. Gandydancer (talk) 15:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is a good point. Often in wiki table usage we relink things because to re-find the first linked instance isn't always easy when you want to click on it for more info. In prose it disrupts flow of reading. In an infobox some readers expect all names to be linked because they specifically use it to navigate. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:43, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I think it's useful there. I've used those links to navigate, and I know others have, too. And, as noted above, there's a clear exception in the overlink policy that supports useful links in infoboxes.--Coemgenus (talk) 15:58, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. WP:OVERLINK explicitly says links can be repeated in infoboxes. It benefits readers to have the links repeated there and it does not clutter the page like overlinking in the prose does. CalidumT|C 16:05, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support The whole purpose of the infobox is to present material in a succinct manner. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:03, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Of course it's helpful to repeat links, and we should do it. Not everybody reads articles top to bottom. Some just look at the infobox, some only read the text without the infobox, many only read a particular section (and we have links to sections all over the place), in some cases users might skip to the navboxes at the bottom. We should be accommodating all of these reading styles, and that means repeating links, sometimes 5 to 10 times in an article. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 22:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support As a matter of common sense, it makes navigating Wikipedia easier for readers. WP:OVERLINK is a policy designed to prevent linking to the same article multiple times within the body, which makes sense because if someone is reading through the page, they've already seen the available wikilink. However, when navigating through successive offices (or for that matter NFL seasons, NBA seasons, Artist singles, etc.) using the infobox, it is best to have everything linked for convenience. Yes, this means sometimes people who hold multiple offices will be linked more than once, but for the sake of sanity we should just link them all, if we have to go through each article and determine which ones to do de-link it will be a headache for editors and readers alike, and only serve to cause confusion. We have a hard enough time enforcing WP:OVERLINK within the bodies of articles, let's not give ourselves extra work for no good reason. -War wizard90 (talk) 23:32, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per all the sound reasons listed above —МандичкаYO 😜 00:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support because it allows much more easy navigation and helps spread knowledge by making it easier to access. StudiesWorld (talk) 21:32, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support—it helps with navigation, and WP:OVERLINK specifically says it can be repeated. Imzadi 1979→ 04:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support (weakly, on a case-by-case basis). The reason for discouraging duplicate links in running text is that we expect readers to go through the text sequentially, so when they encounter the second instance of the name they will already have seen the first. But the tabulated format of an infobox is designed for non-sequential reading – you can use it for looking up just one piece of information at a time, in any order. A second set of arguments about using or avoiding link is that bluelinks in running text increase visual distraction – but if in a tabulated box you have all entries bluelinked, then the same kind of distraction may be created by having a single one among them not blue. Fut.Perf.☼ 11:02, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support readers expect infobox items to be linked and probably think it is an error if it is not. I cant see why it would be seen as overlinking as that really deals with the article body. MilborneOne (talk) 12:24, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Guidelines using the word "generally" are easily overruled by rational justification. The spirit of WP:OVERLINK is to avoid clutter. Logical or expected links are not clutter. Easy and consistent navigation is a high value justification. Alsee (talk) 04:40, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I thought about this carefully and I think the benefits outweigh the cons. I looked at several other infoboxes that were fully linked and it wasn't any tougher visually if all the politicians are linked multiple times (as opposed to prose where it gets very annoying and where I wish the links were the same color as the surrounding text). It's more like a table where, in scrolling down, continual links can be helpful. I'm not 100% convinced we need every city councilperson's name linked many multiple times in an infobox, but I can't see it hurting anything either. The most important subjects should be linked multiple times, and if there is scrolling distance between the last link it may also be linked again. It absolutely can help readers navigate, especially if they are new to the subject, as this happened to myself recently on one of the presidential articles. I agree with @Rhododendrites: that it doesn't go against MoS/Guidelines now so no need to re-write anything. This simply affirms the practice in infoboxes. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:45, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Alsee. We should be careful with putting links in the body text since too many there become distracting. However, navboxes and infoboxes are hotspots where links are expected. Sjakkalle(Check!) 07:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose (names should not be linked more than once)
Oppose - WP:REPEATLINK says if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes. We have to ask "is it helpful" to repeat this link and generally the answer is no. An infobox is supposed to summarise key features of the page's subject. It is effectively the same as a single, listified section and we don't link multiple times in a section so why would we link multiple times in the infobox? It's unnecessary. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:55, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as unnecessary repetition. As AussieLegend said, it doesn't really benefit to repeat links. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:39, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Does that mean you support rewording the part of WP:OVERLINK that says, "... but if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, hatnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead." because unless that wording is changed, then I don't see how WP:OVERLINK can be used to oppose this RfC. -War wizard90 (talk) 05:20, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously, because its not "helpful for readers" as AussieLegend already said. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 09:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how navigational links inside an infobox, even if repeated aren't helpful for readers. It's not a distraction, as it's not a body of text being linked, and if you went to any other website on the web, they would keep this kind of linking consistent because it's what is obviously easier for readers. Especially for infoboxes in succession, there is no way it isn't helpful. Just my opinion though. -War wizard90 (talk) 23:35, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:REPEATLINK/WP:OVERLINK. It isn't "helpful for readers" to repeat links in a back-to-back or nearly back-to-back way (and not just in infoboxes; it's a general principle). WP:COMMONSENSE application of "helpful for readers" tells us that in very long infoboxes, where the recurrence of the name is widely separated from its initial occurrence, it's okay to relink. Many of the support !votes are effectively making the case that it's somehow always useful for readers if we repeatedly link these names in infoboxes, but that cannot possibly be true or the "if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes..." wording would not exist! QED. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 09:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Twice in the same infobox doesn't mean back-to-back. To take the infobox of Shimon Peres, for example, I can certainly see that there is no need, for the second term as prime minister (84-86), to link to Yitzhak Shamir in both the precceding and the successing. On the other hand, if someone wants to follow the succeding link for the first-listed (most recent) term as Minister of Foreign Affairs, no reason to make the reader have to go all the way up to the prime misinter section to find the same name there, nor to te presedent section to find the second prime minister listed there. (Benjamin Netanyahu). עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 13:51, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. You seem to be restating what I said, in detail, just in different wording and with examples. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:26, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose For reasons that I have given in the discussion section. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:56, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Policy and guidelines on this already make it clear that multiple links can be used where appropriate. We do not not need a "should" or "shouldn't" policy over and above what we already have. All the best: RichFarmbrough, 11:42, 23 May 2015 (UTC).
My reasoning behind this RfC was to try and make the linkage of officeholders within the Template:Infobox officeholder consistent throughout its use in the encyclopedia. This can differ with no guideline specific to the matter at hand. Unifying the linkage of names whichever way the consensus of this RfC falls, would be better than it being determined by consensus on a per article basis. We already do this, one such example being guidelines for specific types of articles, such as the video games "manual of style". The need is there, if we want to be homogenize the usage, and I think this is one case where that would be sensible. —Godsy(TALKCONT) 17:38, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion
Comment - This is not exactly the same topic that was closed recently at Talk:FDR. That was specifically about the President of the United States and the problems it creates (especially for children) when the "Preceded by" and "Succeeded by" are not linked. Every other President of the United States was linked for easy access EXCEPT for Franklin Roosevelt. Truman was the third vice-President so it was not instantly apparent where to click for Truman. And when a youngster is doing a report we want them to have easy access to information, especially for the highest office in the United States. Being able to click from infobox to infobox was very helpful. Of course the result was a snowball to make it consistent with all other US Presidents and because of the importance of the office.
Now whether that should hold true for every other political office/elected official (that would include elected judges/mayors/councilpersons/school board members/etc) I do have my doubts. We've established it for US Presidents, but I'd like to read some viewpoints here on whether that should also apply to every political office. Maybe overlinking shouldn't apply to infoboxes since they are a helpful summary of the most important items of an article? Then again, unless it's as important as potus, why do we really need it linked over and over? Food for thought and I'll be reading some posts before deciding whether to expand things or not. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't mean to imply that it was the same issue in my opening statement, merely that it was related. I changed my wording there to be more clear. —Godsy(TALKCONT) 07:18, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Why is this specific to political offices? There are plethora other templates that link to names. For example, where a TV show uses {{infobox television}}, it is common that the same person may be listed in multiple roles (e.g., in Louie, Louie CK is listed as the creator, writer, director, and star) but only linked in the infobox the first time. Whether it is convenient to do this may depend on how the infobox is built (e.g., whether links are inserted automatically and not easily overridden) and how they appear (e.g., whether the references to the same person appear close together), but what is the reason to treat political offices as a special case and could/should this have a broader application. —sroc💬 14:36, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is succession in political offices. For example a user may want to browse through all the governors of New York in order, from the 1st to the 56th. It could be argued that it would be convenient to have all the successors linked, even if they happened to serve as the previous administration's lieutenant governor for ease of navigation. The same cannot be said about the benefit of linking other non-ordered things, such as in your example. That's why I specified the proposal in the way that I did. —Godsy(TALKCONT) 15:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What about, for example, {{infobox flag}}, which links the words "Name" and "Use" for every flag when multiple flags are listed, such as Flag of Germany? Should that be treated any differently? —sroc💬 22:50, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This RfC is specific to the Template:Infobox officeholder, concerning the linkage of names within it more than once. Other infoboxes are outside the scope and not being addressed here. —Godsy(TALKCONT) 17:11, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If "[t]his RfC is specific to the Template:Infobox officeholder", why isn't this RfC taking place at Template talk:Infobox officeholder? Posting it in the Village Pump invites broader discussion. In any case, my point still stands about why the specified infobox should be treated exceptionally; couldn't the same principles equally apply to other infoboxes such as {{Infobox election}}, {{Infobox official post}}, etc.? Consistency in the user experience is beneficial for readers, so if this discussion produces good guidance for one set of infoboxes, we should consider whether that guidance could be applied more broadly. —sroc💬 02:41, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@AussieLegend:We often link multiple times in long tables, and the infobox is closer to a table of information than reading actual prose. We know that overlinking in prose is a distraction to the flow of reading. That's why we don't overlink in prose. My question is, if many readers are finding it helpful to use the infoboxes as navigation tools, what does it hurt to link everything? It's usually done in row after row formatting so it really shouldn't cause added eyestrain. Other than it breaks some rule, how does it really hurt those who say we shouldn't do it? Does it really make it harder for people to view the infoboxes if everything is linked? I'm trying to get a grip on why this rule interpretation came into being. Maybe the overlink writers weren't really thinking about infoboxes when it was initially written. I'm not sure. And since if everything is linked in an infobox I don't think it would bother me at all, I'd like to hear some views as to why it causes problems. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:07, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The content in an infobox is a range of essentially disjointed information, whereas in a table the content has a common theme. As such, it is closer to this than this, so the table analogy is incorrect. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:23, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, there's been someone, using various IP addresses, going through political candidates and removing the extra links, even though this discussion is ongoing. I don't have a horse in this race, but someone should maybe speak to them and invite them to the discussion. Either they don't know about it (AGF) or they do, and are ignoring the trends here. Lets hope its the first. --Jayron32 16:37, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Looking through "support" and "oppose" reasons again, I have to say this proposal comes off as biased for listing more "support" reasons than "oppose" reasons. Snuggums (talk / edits) 12:11, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I made an attempt to summarize/generalize both sides of a recent rfc I closed regarding a similar issue. I didn't inject any original thought about the proposal, or try and raise reasons that weren't brought up there for the sake of neutrality. I think trying to measure bias numerically has its flaws. There could be 10 reasons against something, while only 1 reason for it, the 1 could be particularly sound. That aside, I apologize if in my attempt at neutrality, I didn't put forth enough for one of the sides. I could have played the angel's advocate and found new reasons for a side, but (again) I'd have had to have put my own thought into it, which I was trying to avoid. I have trust in the competency of the community to find their own reasoning or verses in the guidelines. The reasons were meant more as neutral examples to encourage taking positions and having opinions with a basis, rather than simply liking it or not. —Godsy(TALKCONT) 12:48, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Many seem to invoke WP:OVERLINK's allowing linking in the infobox as giving carte blanche there, where I think that its one link-per-article-body implies that one still be chary of linking. To have it otherwise verges on being overly-subtle, if not inconsistent. Since people, I think, read articles, especially long ones, in snippets, they might want to have, say, Truman's name linked in all instances in the article body, but that's to be discouraged, whereas in the infobox it's to be allowed to link twice within the space of a centimeter or two?
Wikipedia has predecessor/successor templates for just the sort of thing that people seem to now want the infobox for.
Legibility is less of a problem in the infobox than in the body, but, especially for piped links, it's still going to be harder to read text, at least as an editor in raw mode, if not as a reader.
Maintainability will most likely be more difficult with overlinking, both in having to change links as names gain disambiguation phrases, and with the possibility of link breakage due to clumsy editing (and newcomers love to edit infoboxes). If you clumsily edit an un-wikilinked name, you're less likely to leave a useless infobox strewn across the top of an article. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:53, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia has no rules against the use of animated GIFs, AFAIK. There are some that have been featured picture of the day, even. That being said, merely because something is allowed, doesn't mean it is a good idea; editorial discretion and article quality are more important than rules, and if the image detracts from the article quality 1) feel free to remove it and 2) if someone objects and puts it back, don't edit war but instead have a discussion and come to a consensus. --Jayron32 16:36, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Jayron. I think I have never come across a animated logo in an Infobox before though. An IP editor has now removed it. I think I'll leave it at that. 220ofBorg 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Kill it. Kill it with fire. If we don't have a rule against animated GIFs in infoboxes we should make one. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:14, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I largely agree with Guy. I think animated Gifs have their place, and think we could use more, especially good ones, but generally oppose them in infoboxes. I'm not quite ready to support a firm rule, as I can imagine excepts. we do not have an article on animated Gifs or animated Google Doodles yet, but in such an article it might be desirable for an example in the info box. I do see that there is an animated Gif in Gif, and think that is a bad idea, but I don't have the energy to start the discussion there.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:40, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Although rare, gifs are useful in some articles. For example, in our chess articles, where certain positions or a sequence of moves must be presented to describe the topic. See Scholar's Mate for an example; it doesn't have an infobox, but if it did, I can't imagine any image being appropriate there except a gif of that particular sequence. The OP's example is obviously a very different case, and that gif should probably be removed. — Jess· Δ♥ 06:50, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I can see keeping the animated gif in the chess article, but in an infobox on the chess page? No. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:16, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Why? Why would it be okay to put a valuable "Animated.gif" just above the infobox, as the lead image, but not inside the infobox, in an equally prominent position? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:36, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
GIF animations of instructive things like chess moves are simply WP:VIDEOS, covered by that quasi-guideline. The use of the same technology to animate an oversized icon to be attention getting is arguably already within the purview of MOS:ICONS (basically: don't use icons as decoration), and even if we don't think it's covered, it's a simple matter to ensure that it becomes covered there. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 09:39, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Banning animated gifs from all infoboxes, is a little too broad of a rule for my taste. There are certainly some articles where gifs in the infobox would be warranted, though it may be few and far between. Advising against them in general as guideline would be fine, but a policy outright banning them would be too much. —Godsy(TALKCONT) 18:01, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Having MOS:ICONS address it would work, since it's a guideline. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 18:28, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have always despised allowing the animated GIF in the infobox at pi, and it's a featured article!Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:12, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that having animated GIFs in infoboxes is a bad idea. They are distracting and bad for accessibility. There may be a few exceptions, like Spinning Dancer, but these should be rare. Kaldari (talk) 19:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
IPv6 IPs
Anybody can edit Wikipedia. But we need to remember an Ip user when we want to mention him/her in any discussion. these huge Ip s are not easy to remember. So we must encourage them to register. And the check user tool should be good enough to deal with these huge alpha-numeric IPs.
Now if i mention them anywhere in talk page discussion just think how difficult it would be remember them. Sometimes user report IP socks when they see similar range. But in these cases the users won't be able to recognize IP-shifting socks as it may not be possible for human brain to recognize the IP-range. Wikipedia can't stop them from editing. But if they don't listen to request of opening account, we can come to some solution where they can be shortened through some software.
The length of IPv6 addresses is certainly a real problem. What I don't see here, however, is any proposal to make it easier. Do you have a proposal here Cosmic Emperor? Oiyarbepsy (talk) 20:58, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest adding language to the welcome template for IPs that points out that IPv6 addresses are difficult to remember, as an additional incentive to create an account. (IPv4 addresses are worse in one respect. They are usually dynamic, because ISPs have to manage the pool, and this is a different factor that makes it difficult to communicate with them.) About the only reasonable thing that comes to my mind is adding language to the welcome template. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:04, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon: Why would anyone want to remember their own IP address? Or are you suggesting that a significant number would register to make remembering their identity easier on others? I mean, the word incentive usually implies a benefit to one's own interest. ―Mandruss☎ 11:46, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The complaint appears to be about the difficulty of other editors remembering the long IP address, e.g., in order to use their talk page. I agree that remembering your own IP address is a silly issue, especially because the IP can and should always just register an account. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:52, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Another annoying thing is the long prefilled undo edit summaries where the username or IP address is used three times in MediaWiki:Undo-summary with source Undid revision $1 by [[Special:Contributions/$2|$2]] ([[User talk:$2|talk]]). For IPv6 we get the form Undid revision 664551967 by [[Special:Contributions/2A02:2F0B:814A:F700:E000:FE0D:D317:BEE1|2A02:2F0B:814A:F700:E000:FE0D:D317:BEE1]] ([[User talk:2A02:2F0B:814A:F700:E000:FE0D:D317:BEE1|talk]]). It renders as "Undid revision 664551967 by 2A02:2F0B:814A:F700:E000:FE0D:D317:BEE1 (talk)", but the code is 194 characters. Edit summaries can be at most 255 characters so there is only 61 left for the editor to explain the revert, unless part of the prefilled summary is manually removed first. IPv4 only uses 119 characters, leaving 136 for the editor. If you undo an edit then the undone edit is usually right before in the page history so there is easy access to the links, and I very rarely click the links in the undo summary. Is it possible to insert a test in MediaWiki:Undo-summary and produce a shorter text for IPv6 (and possibly long usernames), or would the test code just become part of the edit summary with the current software? I'm and admin so I suppose I could just try but I don't like experimenting with live code. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:47, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
PrimeHunter has pointed out another problem. What if an "IPv6 IP" reverts edits made by another "IPv6 IP"?. Just think what the edit History will be like. They have the right to edit WP, but we need to come to a solution which will help us remembering them so that we can report them in case of IP sockpuppetry cases.C E (talk) 13:32, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But why do you need to remember these numbers? Surely you're not typing these numbers out manually, and I'm pretty sure that if your computer is modern enough to edit Wikipedia, then it is capable of copying and pasting a mere 39 characters. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:43, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes Users report IP socks. They are able to find the similarity due to small IPs. Now it will be difficult.C E (talk) 09:15, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Generally, the first 4 segments are the equivalent of a full IPv4 address. So in theory, 1111:2222:3333:4444:AAAA:AAAA:AAAA:AAAA and 1111:2222:3333:4444:AAAA:AAAA:BBBB:AAAA are most likely the same person on the same connection to an ISP. 1111:2222:3333:5555:AAAA:AAAA:AAAA:AAAA should be the same ISP, but is likely a different user. Actual ISP practice isn't well established, and so you could in theory have multiple unrelated people on one /64, or have one person receive IPs from multiple /64s, but it hasn't come up much that I've seen. Monty845 13:50, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see no problem with them, I have never desired to memorise IP addresses, and I honestly find IPv6 easier to find hoppers because there is less sharing and the first 16 digits or so tend to be the exact same. 00:19, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
"Comprised of" and the problem of pet peeves in editing
Giraffedata (talk·contribs) is by now well known for his crusade against the phrase "comprised of" (the phrase has its own article). Some people think it is good that he "takes an interest in grammar", others think it is silly or offensive that he thinks he needs to enforce his own arbitrary preference onto other peoples' completley crammatically correct language usage. I admit I am among the latter. The problem is that his practice creates conflicts, as can be seen from his talkpage where editors regularly complain about his changes to their language, frequently saying that they use the phrase deliberately and pointing out that it is not in fact considered incorrect by English style authorities, or by linguists who specialize in English. Giraffedata, generally responds with contempt asserting that he has a right to change any word in the encyclopedia as he sees fit. This is of course true in principle, but it seems to conflict with our general approach to arbitrary style issues such as WP:RETAIN, WP:CITEVAR and WP:ERA which generally suggests that editors should not arbitrarily change between styles in articles to which they are not major contributors. Giraffedata responds, correctly, that neither these nor the MOS explicitly cover questions such as grammar and word usage.
The problem of course with this attitude is that if Giraffedata can use semiautomatic tools to change between styles, and refuse to for example make a list of exceptions, or to even concede the right of other editors to use these expressions in article space, then any other editor can do the same. I could for example with the same reasoning create a bot to insert the wording "comprised of" instead of "composed of" across articles, or simply manually revert Giraffedata's changes. Or I could choose some other arbitrary style choice or word to systematically change. Currently there is nothing in policy or practice that could deter me or someone else from doing so, or any policy that could be applied if I were to do it, that would not also apply in kind to Giraffedata's practices.
So I think it is time that as a community we discuss the principles in this and whether they should motivate us to change policy, MOS or make some other decision to avoid this kind of issue getting disruptive. I realize that this discussion is both about policy and about dispute and about user conduct - but I hope we can focus on the principle of it, and work towards finding a solution that will make most editors happy.
I think that different possible solutions could be to 1. create a policy that covers this, such as a parallel to WP:RETAIN that states that whenever two grammatical forms can be considered equally correct, the choices of the main contributor should be respected. 2. Require that people doing large scale changes of a single term or construction should maintain a list of articles that are exceptions and will not be "corrected". My suggested solutions can be seen in the essay WP:NOPETPEEVES·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:27, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, I think the editor you mention as an example is doing good work and contributing positively to the encyclopedia. I am with you in the spirit of your new Wikipedia essay, but the devil is in the detail of discussing when differences of usage matter and when they do not. As a reference on that topic, I recommend that all the editors following this discussion here or watching Maunus's essay under construction read Steven Pinker's book The Sense of Style at their earliest opportunity. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is a sufficient fraction of our readership that is going to find "comprised of" jarring that we probably ought to avoid it, even if there are ambits where it's considered unremarkable. It strikes me as rare that it would really be important to phrase things that way. This is sort of in the spirit of WP:COMMONALITY — don't strain to use forms that will appear inferior to a lot of readers, even if you don't think they're inferior, provided there are good substitutes.
What about the fraction of our readership that feels exactly the opposite? Who wins, and why? Barry Town People (talk) 23:06, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Similarly, the which-v-that thing is mostly noticeable only to American readers, but if it makes no difference to UK readers, then why not use "that" even in BrEng articles? --Trovatore (talk) 19:49, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not it is important to phrase it like that is kind of besides the point - because there are significant fractions that feel either way. The point is that dozens of editors approach Giraffedata on his page to tell him to please not correct that which is not in their eyes wrong. Why should their views be overruled by Giraffedata and the other "significant fractions" views?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:45, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Meh. Unless it is part of a direct quotation, I agree with Trovatore that there's little benefit to insisting on using a form that many will find problematic. older ≠ wiser 19:59, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK then. I and plenty of other people find "consists of" to be problematic, so there's little benefit to Giraffedata's insistence on its use. Barry Town People (talk) 23:07, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is a lot of words and usages that "many" find problematic, but which are nonetheless an entirely accepted and acceptable part of ordinary English usage. Should we allow other editors to create crusades to remove split infinitives? Prepositions at the ends of sentences? Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia involving people with many different views, and that alone means there is value to allow pluralism whenever possible. What are your thoughts on the larger principle, that of avoiding conflict over irrelevant style issues?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:40, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Has there been an RfC on this? Counting those who complain the loudest (on either side) on a user talk page isn't a reliable way of gauging community consensus. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:55, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there has been no, but counting those who complain the highest in an RfC also isnt a good way to gauge consensus necessarily. RfCU's have a tendency to degenerate very quickly. I had hoped that this could be a venue to address the issue without making it about the person, but obviously I shouldnt have named the thread the way I did then (I will proceed to rename it). That is why I am trying to see here whether anyone else sees the problem - which is not specifically Giraffedata's edits but the principle of avoiding conflict on arbitrary style issues. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 00:00, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Comprised of" is a perfectly acceptable phrase used on a regular basis by the English-speaking world (see comprised of for some examples). I find it disruptive for one user to dedicate himself solely to removing it, despite objections of others. CalidumT|C 00:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In areas of significant dispute, I think widespread changes should require explicit community support. RfCs may be flawed, but they are the best we have at this point; and most of the flaws are within us, not the process itself. I think (1) Giraffedata should run an RfC, bear the consensus burden, and refrain in the meantime, and (2) Giraffedata should agree beforehand that they will leave all changes of this type to others if the RfC fails, something of a voluntary topic ban. (Side note: Maunus said "RfCU's have a tendency to degenerate very quickly", and I don't know whether that was a typo. RFC/U has been dead for some time, and that's not the kind of RfC I'm referring to.) ―Mandruss☎ 05:36, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think that is exactly a good solution. In the absence of a general consensus to deprecate the usage, he should refrain untill the consensus is generated. I forgot that RfC/U is gone, it would be an RfC about "comproised of" then.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Numerous mainstream style guides deprecate the use of "comprised of"; hopefully, no one here wants to argue that point. I will remove or replace the phrase in any article of which I am doing a significant re-write because better word choices are available. That said, it is a relatively minor style point, like campaigning for the mandatory use of the serial comma or such. Frankly, I find it rather weird that anyone would aggressively work for the phrase's universal removal -- who has the time to spend on such a trivial matter across four million Wikipedia articles? There is an element of obsessive-compulsive insanity about it. I suppose the question that should be asked is Are these edits really disruptive, or just irritating to a handful of editors who think "comprised of" represents good writing? If these edits really are disruptive, how about some examples of such disruption? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:36, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think your question is answerable in any objective way; it's a matter of perspective. If Ngram Viewer shows nothing but increase in the use of "comprised of" in books, that's enough to require an RfC to establish community consensus. Any evidence from style guides could be presented and considered in the RfC. To clarify, I'm not suggesting that the RfC would decide whether "comprised of" should be abandoned completely, but whether there is community support for widespread changes of a crusade nature such as is being considered here. ―Mandruss☎ 06:45, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just the fact that he can make hundreds of edits every day of the week, shows that the phrase is considered a totally natural part of many thousand editor's usage. it simply is waaaaay too commonly occurring to be considered incorrect. And of course it is found in literature by writers from Herman Melville to Pynchon. 4,3 million hits on google books, 1,1 million on google scholar.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:42, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Myriad English-language quirks, colloquialisms and errors are "natural" parts of thousands of editors' everyday language usage, but that doesn't make them all appropriate in an encyclopedic register. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:56, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the relevant Ngram viewer would seem to be one comparing comprised of and composed of, which shows "comprised of" (falling rapidly) well ahead of "composed of" (rising slowly), which leads me to ask what's the third alternative that's taking grammatical market share away from "composed of"? But I think the issue is: does this change protect the integrity of Wikipedia more than it discourages participation? If "comprised of" is grammatical then it is hard to argue that obliterating it protects the integrity of Wikipedia. So then the follow-up question becomes do hypercorrections discourage participation? Thisisnotatest (talk) 08:09, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm 100% in agreement with Trovatore. Giraffedata's edits are in the spirit of WP:COMMONALITY, which takes precedence over WP:RETAIN. The former is about seeking common ground (e.g., the mutually acceptable "glasses" instead of "eyeglasses" or "spectacles", each of which is widely used only in certain English varieties). The latter is to be relied upon when there's no consensus that either/any option has tangible benefits when compared with the other. Despite a common misconception, WP:RETAIN is not an instruction to refrain from modifying any style that isn't flat-out incorrect, irrespective of the rationale. Opinions differ as to whether "comprised of" is proper English. Does anyone assert that Giraffedata's alternative wording isn't (or that it's inferior in some other respect)? If not, what harm is he causing? It seems as though much of the opposition is based on the principle of the matter, not a belief that Giraffedata is damaging the encyclopedia. Some view his edits – which they perceive as the replacement of one perfectly acceptable style with another – as utterly pointless. That's a valid opinion, but why is it grounds to counter his efforts? If the result is something equally good (albeit not better, in your view), what's the problem? That Giraffedata is wasting his time instead of doing something that you consider worthwhile? In my opinion, the real waste of time is the crusade to counter Giraffedata's crusade. All of us have better things to do than revert harmless-at-worst edits and participate in discussions such as this one. Of course, if someone asserts – in good faith – that some of Giraffedata's replacement wording is inferior to "comprised of" (for one or more reasons unrelated to which phrase appeared in the article first), that's a different story. I want to stress that I'm not referring to such a scenario above. —David Levy 08:03, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have a few pet peeves myself, but I have refrained from hunting down and "fixing violations" because I felt that would be seen as disruptive. These pet peeves are no different from what is being discussed here. Like this, they are in gray areas where there is no clear consensus in style guides or among the Wikipedia community, but some will of course disagree with them since nothing has total agreement at Wikipedia. They are a matter of personal opinion, and, like Giraffedata, I would be implementing mine on a widespread scale. If your view wins out here I'll consider that a community green light for such activity. It would not be WP:POINTy behavior, as I would be doing it to make what I consider improvements to the encyclopedia, not simply to make a point; my desire to make these changes predates this discussion. Are you ok with this? ―Mandruss☎ 08:50, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If, among those with an opinion on the matter, a significant percentage regards the styling that you wish to remove as less valid than its potential replacement and substantially everyone else regards the two styles as equally valid, I'm beyond okay with that. —David Levy 10:47, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Where are you getting your information about how the community feels about "comprised of"? ―Mandruss☎ 11:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please reread my 08:03 message, wherein I convey my observational impression and inquire as to whether anyone's position is inconsistent therewith. You're welcome to answer my questions, of course. —David Levy 12:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have no particular perception in that area, and I wouldn't use it as a basis for argument if I did because it would be very error-prone. ―Mandruss☎ 12:57, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not requesting an assessment of positions held by the community at large. I'm asking whether any individual's opposition to Giraffedata's edits stems from a sincere belief that the resultant prose is inferior to that which it replaced (i.e., that Giraffedata's changes aren't merely unnecessary, but actually reduce the articles' quality). —David Levy 13:20, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for my misunderstanding. When writing new prose, I think I would generally choose "comprised of" over "composed of", I guess because "comprise" has a narrower range of definitions than "compose" and is therefore more precise. This is based on nothing but instinct, but I would have to say that, in my opinion, "composed of" does slightly reduce articles' quality. Does the difference matter to five percent of readers? Probably not, and that's why I'm not roaming Wikipedia making this change wherever I see it. I simply ask that others offer me and those like me the same consideration. Does that answer your question? ―Mandruss☎ 13:55, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think Giraffedata's replacements are sometimes, not infrequently but not always, clearly inferior. I think "composed of" and "comprised of" are not fully synonymous in all contexts, and sometimes give different nuances to the meaning. To me composed of means that something has been composed into a certain order, with the components in specific relation to eachother, whereas comprised of means that some category simply subsumes a set of elements.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That could be a valid point in some contexts (especially patent law, as I observed elsewhere). But we know that Giraffedata doesn't robotically replace all cases of "comprised of" with "composed of", and in any given case it's unlikely that he (or anyone else) would object to some other alternative. The fact his choices are not 100% perfect every time according to everyone isn't indicative of a policy problem, a user behavior problem, a generalized style/grammar problem, or any other real problem. There are simply sometimes personal, contextual disagreements, that can be resolved in the usual way. I don't see any evidence provided that Giraffedata insists on retaining his preferred wording. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:03, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The issue, though, is that you don't need an "of" with "comprised". "Comprise" is grammatically the equivalent of "include". You would not say that something is "included of" or "including of" something else; you would say that it "includes" something else, or is "including" something else. See Transitional phrase for the use of these terms in patent law, which is very serious about using the right terms. Cheers! bd2412T 16:25, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But "include" and "comprise" are not equivalent. It is valid to use "comprised of" but not valid to use "included of". Omnedon (talk) 16:46, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it is a matter of context, but a patent claim can either read "consisting of" or "comprising"; if "comprised of" were used, the claim would be invalid. bd2412T 16:52, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know that; but even if true, that a specific field has specific usage rules is not really relevant here. "The committee was comprised of three members." "Three members comprised the committee." Both are valid. Omnedon (talk) 16:57, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
BD2412: The issue, though, is that you don't need an "of" with "comprised". "Comprise" is grammatically the equivalent of "include". You would not say that something is "included of" or "including of" something else; you would say that it "includes" something else, or is "including" something else. Let's suppose for a moment that there is an issue (though I'm not at all sure that there is one). Then this isn't it. Not only is it not the issue, but (like many people) you've conflated the verb COMPRISE (which of course has forms comprised) with what's being (unnecessarily?) discussed in this section: the adjective COMPRISED. (See the article "Comprised of" for the distinction.) That you wouldn't say that something is "included of" or "including of" something else (as I too would not) is by the way. ¶ "Comprised of" is a mildly interesting formula. If it's anomalous, it's not uniquely so: consider the pair POSSESS and possessed of. (Props to Ecwaine for bringing it to our attention.) -- Hoary (talk) 00:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That goes straight to my later point, that we should not be using words with potentially confusing meanings when more common words are available that don't have this problem. bd2412T 00:51, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with this word is that "The committee comprised three members" and "Three members were comprised by [or in] the committee" are also valid. See any dictionary if you don't believe me. Even wikt:comprise has this in considerable detail. The word is an auto-antonym and thus its use is generally always going to be confusing to someone, even pretty intelligent people, no matter what. A strong case can thus be made that it should generally not be used here except where it must be, and probably the one and only case that is true is, as bd2412 and I have both already pointed out, in patent law, where it is a strictly defined term of art. The fact that there are some editors who do not understand this problem and thus think there is no problem with "comprised of" does not somehow make their opinion that the phrase shouldn't be changed equally valid. WP:Consensus does not require unanimity, and it very, very often comes down to which argument makes more sense, not which is argued with more fervor or preferred by more arguers. There simply is no contest when it comes to which side of that debate has more facts on its side and what conclusion they point to. The auto-antonym problem is genuinely intractable and incontrovertible. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain how comprise is an auto-antonym, how it can mean either x or not x. ―Mandruss☎ 00:27, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind. I read Talk:Comprised_of#Auto-antonymy and consider that a misuse of the term, but I'm not going to quibble over unimportant semantics. ―Mandruss☎ 00:48, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't read that talk page thread, and can't vouch for it. If you just search this VP for "auto-autonomy", you'll find my reasoning on the matter. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:38, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My knee-jerk reaction is to object to editors going around enforcing their views on prescriptive grammar. This is mainly because prescriptivists are often misinformed. I also appreciate that using a form acceptable to both sides may result in a loss of richness in language (as Geoffrey Pullum and/or Arnold Zwicky put it: acceptance means that "crazies win"). However, on examining several of the edits by Giraffedata (talk·contribs) I generally found them to improve the style and/or reduce potential ambiguity, so I agreed with them. I also found the explanation on the user's subpage well-informed and valid (which does not mean that I agree with everything). Similarly with "that"/"which", where I usually find the use of "that" equally appropriate where "which" is used to introduce a "restrictive" relative clause. I have so far resisted the urge to revert what may look like prescriptivist "corrections", since I believe that the restrictive "that" is (at least consciously) accepted by more people, though it should also be noted that many who say they insist on "that" intuitively prefer "which" in some circumstances in their own writing. Another consideration is that some people object to use of "that" when the antecedent is human. So, on balance, I think the decision shoud be based on what is stylistically better and on commonality. For this sort of issue, I am not in favour of invoking strict application of anything like WP:RETAIN and WP:ENGVAR, which, I think, have the potential to create more disruption. I would be in favour of advice that recommended avoidance of ambiguity (for instance where "comprise" and "include" may be viewed as denoting substantially different logical relationships, the use or non-use of a comma may be regarded as insufficient differentiation between supplementary and integrated use of relative clauses, or the avoidance of a split infinitive may introduce ambiguity). --Boson (talk) 16:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There are several points to respond to in this proposal and thread:
Extended content
Ultimately, I agree with programmatic efforts to remove a potentially confusing construction that uses an auto-antonym like "comprise", and replace it with something clearer. If the same editor were changing all "comprised of" sentences to "comprising" ones, to invert which of the two self-contradictory meanings of "comprise" were being used, that would be an actual problem and potentially disruptive. Replacing either of them with clearer language is not. [Note, however, that "comprise" and "compose" have specific and mutually exclusive definitions in patent law, and should not be changed in that context. Since almost no one knows this, when we need to use them in WP articles referring to patents, we should probably expand them to indicate their meaning, e.g. with "comprises at least x, y, and z" vs. "is composed exclusively of x, y, and z".]
I agree WP:COMMONALITY supersedes WP:RETAIN. And it's a mistake to extrapolate from a handful of very narrowly defined rules like WP:ENGVAR/WP:RETAIN, WP:CITEVAR and WP:ERA, which happen to be similar in only one way, that there's a general principle that whoever edited earlier has more editorial rights at a page than later editors. This is flatly contradicted by policy at WP:BOLD, and by the WP:Five pillars. WP would have nearly no content, and it would all be terrible, if it were true. The only reason those three rules swim against WP:BOLD is that too much editorial strife results otherwise, in those very limited circumstances. They're cases where WP:COMMONSENSE is overriding a general rule, for serious reasons. [Honestly we could drop CITEVAR; it's actually frequently an impediment to article improvement, and leads to pointless editwarring, which is what it was supposed to be preventing. Hopefully we'll make it moot by just finally settling on a single citation style instead of entertaining multiple variants for no clear benefit. WP must be the only major publication in the world that does so.] I shouldn't have to note this about ENGVAR/CITEVAR/ERA, but I clearly do, because people at disparate venues as WP:RM debates and the very one we're in now, quite frequently try to extrapolate from them a generalized principle that names, spellings, styles, wording selections, sentence structures, etc. must not be changed because the original creator of the article or adder of the material didn't want it that way. It's total bollocks.
I have to observe that a great deal of what is done with WP:AWB by numerous editors, programmatically across many/all articles, is what someone pejoratively labelled "hypercorrection". The sky has not fallen, and we are not banning AWB. It's very purpose is semi-automating minor, WP:GNOMEy edits, so most of them will, pretty much by definition, look trivial to a lot of other editors, and be the kind of editing they don't feel they want to do or examine. One editor's "pet peeve" is another editor's "cleanup". One editor's "crusade" is another editor's "routine". One editor's "obsession with trivia" is another's "improving readability". Just because you don't share someone else's focus and feelings doesn't mean what they do is worthless. Also, the Crusades were a series of genocidal military campaigns by Christians to take the Holy Land from Muslims. Nothing on Wikipedia is sanely comparable to that, and every time someone refers to another editor as a "crusader" or "on a crusade", they're triggering a corollary of Godwin's law, just substituting the Crusaders for the Nazis, but depending on pro-Christian bias in the English-speaking world to get away with it undetected by people's BS filters. It's also a WP:Civility violation.
There's a serious logic problem inherent in simultaneously holding that these things are trivial and don't matter, but that some people focusing on them discourages the participation of others. Only someone who is inordinately concerned with a tiny style/grammar nitpick like this would quit Wikipedia over it, or flee from editing a particular article, or some other WP:DRAMA response. Ergo, no one who feels "discouraged" over something like this can, without hypocrisy, criticize another editor for being supposedly too concerned about the alleged nitpick in question. What would really be happening is they're at least equally concerned about it, just opposed over what the "right" version is. And, in the more generalized case, it's pretty laughable when someone from a wikiproject, who rarely edits anything but articles on a narrow topic of limited interest to most readers and editors, tries to criticize WP:MOS/WP:AT-focused editors for being "too focused" on style and title editing. Cf. WP:KETTLE.
Another latent issue in discussions of this sort is that the textual size of an edit really has nothing to do with its importance, and neither does the conceptual category into which someone wants to place it. A view that amounts to "little tweaks like swapping one word or glyph for another are just trivia", or more broadly "style and grammar matters are a waste of time" are common but idiosyncratic and emotional responses to a feeling one could probably summarize as "I don't personally care much about style, usage, grammar and punctuation, and I'm personally irritated by people who are". This attitude accounts for much of the virulently anti-WP:MOS sentiment espoused by a small number of editors. At it's core, it's simply a sublimated form of incivility and assumption of bad faith. Read any flamey WP:MOS or WP:AT-related discussion, and you'll see immediately how quickly the veil drops and the hate comes out in plain view, including on this page right now (just text search for "obsessive" and you'll find numerous nasty examples, with plenty more a post or two away from these). A touch of this view also underlies comments like "I find it disruptive for one user to dedicate himself solely to" [whatever]. Well, most of the rest of us find it disruptive for one user to try dictate what other editors may spend their volunteer time working on.
Whether something is technically "grammatical" (according to what sources, contradicted by what other sources?) has little to do with whether it's good writing. "My naked lamps migrate over chicken-massaged postal seeds" is perfectly grammatical but meaningless. The "comprise" problem is that the word is an auto-antonym. All of this grandstanding about it on both sides is a waste of time, because the real solution here is obviously to avoid (and replace) auto-antonyms in any usage in which the meaning could be unclear. We should probably just put that into MOS. It really has nothing at all to do with whether the "proper" use (says who?) is "a collection comprising 50 pieces" (also conveyed by "a collection comprised of 50 pieces") or "50 pieces comprising a collection" (also conveyed by "50 pieces comprised by/in a collection"). Both contradictory meanings of "comprise" have long been well-attested, and while one is older and less common today, possibly headed for obsolescence (or, if you feel the other way, one is somewhat neologistic and only attested in more recent sources), neither are "wrong", despite them being opposite. [The genuinely incorrect one would be "a collection comprised by 50 pieces", which illogically mixes the "by" construction of the "included in" meaning, with the reversed hierarchical order of the "includes" meaning, which can take an "of" construction. Using the "of" construction when the verb is active, as in "a collection which comprises of 50 pieces", is also substandard in almost all English dialects.]
Mandruss makes a good point: 'I have a few pet peeves myself, but I have refrained from hunting down and "fixing violations" because I felt that would be seen as disruptive.' We all do [need to] resist this urge. I've observed many times before that it's essentially impossible for any one person to agree with every rule in MOS, because the whole thing is necessarily a compromise between radically divergent style rules from every geographical and vocational part of the English-speaking world. The thing to look at here is that Giraffedata's edits are not simply a "peeve", a willy-nilly preference, but have a reasonable, reader-facing rationale. There's a big difference between that and, say, going around and changing every instance of "forwards" to "forward" just because you hate that minor redundancy and your English dialect doesn't favo[u]r it.
I also agree with all of Boson's commonsense observations, immediately above mine.
The proponent's 'Currently there is nothing in policy or practice that could deter me or someone else from doing so...' stuff, which almost has a WP:POINTyI'm gonna do this to punish you all, if you don't stop me by agreeing to the rules I want against my own bad idea air to it, also raises WP:BEANS concerns. We should not and do not draft up elaborate, problematic policies to pre-emptively address problems that are not extant, because it just inspires troublesome editors to do precisely what we're newly proscribing when there wasn't anyone doing it before. Thus it's also an exercise in instruction creep.
— SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 16:58, 25 May 2015 (UTC) Updated: 01:51, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For words like this that have multiple senses that can be confusing because of their nuance, can't we just replace them with clearer language? Perhaps "the collection includes 50 pieces" or "there are 50 pieces in the collection". While this is not at the level of certain hard sciences articles that use jargon that is incomprehensible to the average reader, vocabulary selections can be a barrier to clear understanding, and one that is easily avoided. bd2412T 17:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's the very idea that's at issue here. Some editors are convinced that such constructions are in no way problematic, and want to take Giraffedata to task for changing them to clearer language. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 17:14, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would not consider changing "comprised of" to "comprising" to be using clearer language; why not change those uses to more common words like "consisting of" or "including"? bd2412T 18:12, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Giraffedata does not change it to comprising, in fact he also removes "comprising" and all other occurences of the verb comprise. The argument that he is simply taking thers to task to make them use clearer language is of course predicated on the notion that comprising is unclear or confusing - an assertion foer which there is no evidence whatsoever. It is not the case that auto-antonyms are necessarily confusing, and I have yet to see a usage of "comprised of" that was actually ambiguous. It is ambiguous only in the mind of someone who thinks it is language's job to be fully governed by binary logic and is unable to understand that meaning of words vary in context. If Giraffedata was actually making attempts to understand the reason why people choose to use the word or see how it fits into contexts, and only changing those that were possibly confusing then I am sure this issue would have never arisen. but that is not his approach, his approach is a one-size (his) fits all argument. Which can be reasonably and non-civility-breachingly be called a crusade.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:25, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I have seen him change "comprising" to "composed of" as well.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(EC) bd2412, Giraffedata most commonly uses "composed of" or "consists of", but explains the various replacements here. It's also instructive to actually look at the related threads on Giraffedata's talk page. You find that the characterization of him as 'generally respond[ing] with contempt asserting that he has a right to change any word in the encyclopedia as he sees fit' is quite disingenuous, and borders on psychological projection. Giraffedata even has a well-reasoned and well-researched user essay about the "comprised of" matter at User:Giraffedata/comprised of, but most complainants have not even looked at it, despite his edit summaries linking to it, and despite the fact that the whole point of it is addressing their concerns with reason and sources. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I can count at least three editors on the talkpage saying that they have read his essay and disagrees, and requests for him not to continue to change it in the specific articles they have used the wording int. And in each case he responds in an offended tone, and draws the same ludicruous "ownership" argument that you defend below - which amounts to saying that the person who actually wrote an article has less of a right to determine wording in it than some one who hasn't because allowing any of their preferences to stand would be condoning article ownership. He makes no attempt to reach a consensus on the question, just stubbornly asserts his right to make the change. Yes, I get stubborn and angry as well when faced with that kind of an attitude - but that is EXACTLY the reason we need some kind of policy or guideline on this issue. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have to respectfully disagree. I find his "tone" (to the extent that word makes sense in a text environment) to be measured, calm, and reasonable. Neither me nor Giraffedata have made any such argument 'that the person who actually wrote an article has less of a right to determine wording in it than some one who hasn't'; rather, the clear fact is that no editor has more or fewer editing rights in this regard, but the proposal we're discussing here would install one, that conflicts with already long-established policy. The rewording of it just above is also self-contradictory on its face, since making any such wording edit automatically constitutes helping to write the article, so it's a self-fulfilling "condition".
Some further background may help others understand why this dispute is a one-sided tempest in a teapot, a demand to fight being made against someone trying to avoid a fight (i.e. you engaging in what looks like the very "bullying" you complain of). Giraffedata said 'You don't have to agree with me either', and explicitly suggests that you revert him in articles where you insist on disagreeing with him, 'unless you're interested in finding a compromise or you think you can convince me this is the least awkward wording'. You'd earlier said to him 'What else do you want me to do, edit war?', to which he responded 'You won't be able to edit war on this, though, because I won't participate. Note that the Wikipedia definition of edit war requires making the same edit multiple times per day, and you have never seen me do that.' I just really don't see a problem here. You're being at least as "stubborn" as he is. I think anyone would be "stubborn" in the face of baldfaced claims that they have no right to edit an article here. When I turned your requirements back on you in a tongue-in-cheek way, you reacted with immediate umbrage, remember? [All of these quotes are from User talk:Giraffedata#Roaring Creek (Pennsylvania), shortly before you opened this VP thread.] — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:52, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, policy is very clear that slow editwarring is also editwarring. And all of te arguments you produce apply in equal measure to giraffedata- his edits are ALSO selfish, You seem to be graduating the latter of disgusting rhetorical strategies, now also attributing quotes to me that I never said. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 23:59, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Edit warring does not say what you seem to think it says. I just read it top to bottom, in case it changed. Another relevant policy, WP:Consensus makes it clear that consensus can change, so the notion that once a change is reverted it can never be made again is not applicable. But let's return to your accusations and the facts: Where's the proof that Giraffedata has in fact gamed the three revert rule by slowly re-reverting and re-re-re-reverting the exact same edit? I see no evidence of this, but it is required. Direct policy quote: 'An edit war only arises if the situation develops into a series of back-and-forth reverts.' I'm sure you're aware, as we all are, that it's common editing procedure to try an alternative change if one change is reverted but an editor still feels the present text is flawed. This appears to be Giraffedata's editing pattern. It simply is not the case that he always changes "comprised of" to (or back to) a specific alternative like "composed of". You even said so yourself earlier. And if anyone doubts that I'm quoting accurately, they can simply go read the original thread, since I posted exactly where it is. [PS: If you're just objecting to the [interpolation in square brackets], it was from the sentence immediately preceding the quoted part, which anyone can verify.] I have to observe that there's a clear pattern emerging here: I and others address your points in detail, while you respond with emotive hyperbole and red herring distractions that seem to serve a FUD purpose, but which evade answering most or any actual points raised against your position, and which especially fail to provide any evidence that is asked for. I have to say I don't think this strategy will be successful. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we did have at least one active admin who believed that every single change to another's contribution was "technically a revert", but I think he got over it when the absurdity of his position was explained (his "rule" meant that every single edit after the page creation was a reversion, no matter what the edit did). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:05, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Most people here are failing to address the substance of the proposal, sticking to their own opinions about "comprised of" specifically. The question is: what is the poper etiquette and procedure for enforcing one's pet peeves on other peoples writing? If there were a consensus that "comprised of" should not be used in wikipedia then of course that would settle the specific question here, but not the wider principle of how to handle style related conflicts where there is no "right answer". ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:16, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In general, I think that if constructions such as "comprised of" are deemed grammatical, then it's unhelpful for someone to do nothing on Wikipedia but remove them. I would wonder about the motives of someone who edits in such a fashion anyway. Are they here to construct an encyclopedia or just to eradicate a grammar foible that they don't like? That said, if changing wording makes the sentence clearer for people to read, then fair enough. However, I would echo BD2412's point that, if you are going to make wording clearer, use a more common word entirely, or a construction that is unambiguous.
Perhaps, if an editor wants to make a grammar edit where the grammar was previously correct, he/she should only do so while making other substantive edits to the article. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:28, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To get us back on track: Mandruss has let us know that if i turns out that there is a general consensus in this discussion to the effect that as long as someone can argue that their preference is preferable to some other choice, and there is no general consensus to say otherwise, then an editor is justified in programatically enforcing their preference, then Mandruss will personally take up such a practice. I will myself do the same of course. So what rules of etiquette would you like Mandruss and meI to follow as we purge the encyclopedia systematically of usages that bug us and that we consider to be likely to be bugging likeminded readers?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:34, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I for one get my knickers in a twist when someone dare end a sentence with a preposition. CalidumT|C 19:43, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The "substance of the proposal" is that Maunus wants to turn WP:OWN on its ear. His request for 'a parallel to WP:RETAIN that states that whenever two grammatical forms can be considered equally correct, the choices of the main contributor should be respected' is grotesque and un-wiki. Such an idea is not parallel at all to WP:RETAIN, but an argument for "whoever can dump the most words into a page, whether they are encyclopedic or not, controls it forever". Such a rule would be an unmitigated disaster, and nothing on Wikipedia works anything like that. See also User talk:Giraffedata#Roaring Creek (Pennsylvania), where Maunus makes patent WP:OWN claims over an article: 'No you do not [have as much right to choose article wording]. If you were to actually do something useful and write an article, then you would have a right to make style choices for it.' Maunus then vows a WP:POINTy, WP:BATTLEGROUNDing revertwar campaign: 'I for one am not going to back down, and the next time you revert "comprised of" in an article where I have reverted you once I will not be this gracious about it.' (Note: Nothing was gracious about Maunus's post.). Most of what Maunus says in that thread is very confused about various policies and guidelines, as is what he's saying on this page, too. So, let's be really clear about this: No, Maunus, you do not own and control an article or any page here by virtue of jealously guarding it and ensuring that your own edits dominate its wording. The fact that you object to someone editing "other people's wording", by which you really mean your wording, means you do not understand WP:Five pillars. PS: A key detail in the proposal is ""two grammatical forms [that] can be considered equally correct", which is rarely the actual case with any two forms, is certainly not the case with "comprised of" (which is widely denigrated in numerous reliable sources) and even in cases where is it approximately true that there's "equal" acceptance, it's usually a difference between UK and US English, i.e. it's already governed by WP:ENGVAR. It simply comes up so infrequently that editors like Maunus will vow they're "not going to back down" and "will not be ... gracious about it", that we do not need some new etiquette rule about people using AWB to make minor wording tweaks to articles in series and over time. That's what AWB is designed to do. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OOh what a civil way to insult and personally attack someone. Very impressive, you must have practiced that a long time. Giraffedata is the one who is in constant battleground mode and is slow editwarring without having any backing by consensus. If there were a consensus that comprised should never be used then I would follow it, but I am not obligated by policy to sit down and peacefully let him bully anyone who disagrees with him. If he wants to change this usage in articles on my watchlist he will have to get a consensus for it on the talkpage in each separate case untill there is a general projectwide consensus that supports him. And in doing so I will be entirely within policy as it currently exists. So either you make a set of guidelines for how to approach this issue, or I will be fully justified in reverting giraffedata on any article where he makes this change - untill a local consensus is established. That is the substance. So if you would like me not to do this I suggest you get your head out of your sanctimonious bum and address the actual issue. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for making my case for me. Please actually read WP:POINT for starters. An "I will hunt you to the ends of the earth if you dare edit one of my pages" attitude is not going to serve you well here. Let's turn your reasoning back on you: Show me a site-wide consensus that the alternatives to "comprised of" that Giraffedata uses (there are lots of them, depending on the contexts in which the phrase is found) and which many other editors prefer, should never be used. None of us are obligated by policy to let you bully us into accepting wording that many find awkward, confusing, ignorant, or jarring. If you ever want to use that phrase again, you must get consensus for it on the talk page in each separate case until there is a general project-wide consensus that supports you. Does that sound fair and reasonable to you? BTW, I've actually read most of the relevant threads on Giraffedata's talk page, and he's quite calm, reasonable, civil, and patient, in stark contrast to the ranty fist-shaking posted there by you and several others with an axe to grind. The fact that it's in favor of some pet peeve instead of against one doesn't make it any less a case of axe-grinding and of advancing the very kind of pet peeve you just produced an essay about avoiding. PS: Being civil does not require being flattering or refraining from criticism. Here's an example of being actually incivil, you referring to another editor's work as 'your crusade'. (See my previous post for why this is essentially the same as saying "your Kristalnacht"). It's also hypocritical to disrespectfully confront another editor, and make long-term editwarring threats, and then call them 'confrontational and disrespectful'. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So this is where your argument collapses, and you are forced to admit that this kind of behavior is not ok and is disruptive and problematic. Yuo could only see that problem, when it was in the context of an edit with which you didnt agree and by an editor you didnt like. but you saw it. If you can see that it would be a problem if I were agressively inserting comprised of into articles to which I have not otherwise contributed without getting consensus, then of course you can realize that that is esxactly what Giraffedata is doing (and what I am not...yet). And no, using the word the word crusade as a metaphor for a similar agressive coampaign to make the rest of the world conform to one's belief is not a personal attack. Imputing other editors viewpoints they have not expressed or speculating about their real motivations in a snide and sarcastic manner is. So pardon me while I go vomit over your hypocrisy.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:55, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That response is an incoherent hand wave, full of straw men, and unresponsive to any point I made. Hmm, "imputing other editors['] viewpoints they have not expressed or speculating about their real motivations..." A good example of that would be "could only see that problem, when it was in the context of an edit with which you didnt agree and by an editor you didnt like. but you saw it." Anyway, you utterly missed the point. I too think it would be unfair to require of you all those things before you could make such an series of edits! That was the whole message of that Gedankenexperiment. Please exit the "me vs. them" mode. I believe, and Giraffedata has also said, you are free to make such edits yourself, even to simply revert him. No one is trying to impose pre-emptive consensus-seeking requirements on you before you can make minor wording tweaks to articles, much less invent some new policy to enforce it. WP:Be bold is already genuine policy here. It's unreasonable of you to expect that policy to not apply to someone else just because you happen to disagree with them on some point of grammar, and to propose your new anti-BOLD policy. I'll quote Giraffedata directly why he doesn't think you should go on a spree of reverting him: 'that [would be] pretty selfish, since I think your choice is one of the most awkward, but I let it stand for months.' That strikes me as remarkably non-confrontational on his part. What we really have here is two editors each with a conflicting preference and each occasionally editing in their preference at a particular article to see if it sticks, and each using a similar rationale. This happens a zillion times a day on Wikipedia, and it's actually highly unusual for one party to such a disagreement to wait months before approaching the change again. It's the exact opposite of edit-warring. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)later and reinser the same change.[reply]
Sloweditwarring is also editwarring. And yes, Giraffedata does editwar, he will come back to the same article two months and revert again. And he does not keep a list of articles where his edits are contested. And when requested to make an exception he states that making the edit is his right and that people dissagreeing with him are wrong and selfish to insist in correcting his corrections back. And no, my polic is not anti-bold it is specifically about what to do when a bold style edit s reverted. And the answer is GET CONSENSUS> which is basic fucking policy already. So it is you who is trying to create an exempt category of edits, where the burden of discussion and argumentation is reversed. And yes I am being almost equally stubborn as giraffedata (not yet to the degree of embarking on a crusade) but for some reason you are fine with only faulting me for being stubborn and selfish not him, in spite of the fact that I am the one trying to make a proposal to avoid people being stubborn and selfish in general. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 00:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But only because it suits your editing goals. You've not identified a real problem, you've conjured up a hypothetical abuse problem, and are scapegoating an individual editor whose grammar you don't like. Re: 'Giraffedata does editwar' – For the fifth time: Prove it. Where are the diffs? Attempts at proof by assertion won't convince anyone. I don't only fault you for being stubborn. I clearly observed that being supposedly stubborn in response to threats to your editing rights is entirely reasonably, and that's it's hypocritical to call someone else doing that "stubborn" when you do it yourself. I scare-quoted "stubborn" because it's your word, not mine. We can analyze other word choices of yours like this. Take "crusade". Aside from my feeling that it's a variant of argumentum ad Hitlerum using Saracen-slaughter instead of Jew-slaughter, I think you making a big stink at VP about this rather illusory problem, that is not demonstrably disrupting anything at all, over a personality dispute with another editor, looks like a "crusade" to anyone who doesn't mind that pejorative label, and a particularly ad hominen type of campaign at that. It's fallacious to point at one editor and say what amounts to We have to do something about this terrible problem that might happen if someone other than him abuses editing tools in ways I can't prove he's really doing. It's even worse to then defend at length all your animosity about this particular editor and his edits, while trying to convince us you are really focusing on a general problem, not this editor, and that people are misinterpreting the point of the proposal. It's disingenuous, or confused, I'm not sure which. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:35, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To me this sounds like a behavioral issue... not a content issue. The fact is, going on a Wiki-crusade of any sort is disruptive - no matter what the cause or how just and right it may be. Make a correction (of any sort) in one article, and you are seen as improving wikipedia ... go on a crusade, and make the same correction in thousands of articles, and you are quickly seen as being a disruptive asshole. Blueboar (talk) 20:32, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not a content issue true, but a behavioral issue which is not covered by any of our behavior policies and which some editors condone because they happen to agree with the person causing the disruption. A solution to the immediate problem would be to establish a consensus that "comprised of" needs to be removed aggressively and people should have barnstaers for doing so. This would however quickly cause other people to do the same, introducing changes that may not be as agreeable to the majority, and then we have the problem again. So the solution is to have a behavior guideline on how to proceed when you want to make style changes across many articles.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:36, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about that. I have made hundreds of thousands of disambiguation fixes with AWB, and have done mass-repairs of misspellings of "received" and "hierarchy", and have only very rarely been criticized for doing so, even when I have made runs of many thousands of edits at a time. A style change that is likely to make the wording of an article more accessible to a broader audience is not much different, in my view. bd2412T 21:50, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well there is a difference whether or not you can see it. Namely that Giraffedata's talkpage is full of equal amounts of praise and criticism. The difference may have to do with the fact that all users of English agree that recieve and haeirarchy are errors, but there is not such agreement on comprised of and a bunch of other style changes that some consider improving prose and accessibility and other's dont.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:13, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Not much different" already concedes there's a difference. The talk page comments are not really equal, and Wikipedia doesn't work on the basis of voting and headcounts (except to an extent at WP:RFA). We all already surely know that people are an order of magnitude more likely to invest the time and energy to register a disagreement than an agreement; this is a well-known fact of human behavior generally. More interestingly, the praise received is often from editors who never even thought about the question before and were not participating in any related discussions, while the criticisms never seem to be from uninvolved editors. I don't see anyone at his talk page posting that they agree with one of his edits, but oppose his ability to use AWB to make it. No one is even saying that they are undecided on this usage point, but sure that he alone should somehow be retrained from being able to edit articles to reflect what he thinks is better wording. There's also a huge civility gulf; most of the commenters against this editing pattern arrive on his talk page with an aggressive "how dare you" attitude, a belittling view that he's wrong and/or stupid, and that his contributions are of no value and "obsessive". It's deeply insulting, and evidentiary of problems that exist between those commenters' keyboards and chairs.More importantly, the fact that many do consider the changes to be an improvement is reason enough to make them. WP:BOLD is policy; the only way that WP improves is by people boldly making such changes. The burden is on resisters against wording tweaks to demonstrate that they should be reverted. A change in readability is not comparable to something like insertion of a new fact that may not be properly sourced. Changes to articles that trigger core policy concerns like WP:V, WP:BLP, or WP:COPYRIGHT can basically be reverted with impunity until the policy concerns are satisfied, but there is no comparable policy concern raised by whether "comprised of" or "composed of" (or whatever) is better wording. The Wikipedia default is that such changes can be made "mercilessly". As Giraffedata himself frequently points out, other editors are free to revert such a change at an article. The only place in this dispute where I see anyone suggesting that one editor has no or less right to edit an article is Maunus's comments. I'll quote it again in case anyone missed it: 'If you were to actually do something useful and write an article, then you would have a right to make style choices for it.' I.e., if you did not write most of an article, you have no right to make style edits in it, and if you are not writing an article, the work you're doing on Wikipedia is not useful. It's simultaneously among the most confused and most insulting things I've ever seen here. (BTW, I'm having this reaction without previous involvement; I don't recall ever having interacted with Giraffedata in any way before today, and my interactions with Maunus have been brief, uncommon, and barely memorable.) — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:09, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Talk about not understanding basic policy: "The burden is on resisters against wording tweaks to demonstrate that they should be reverted." And here you are just inventing policy on the spot: "A change in readability is not comparable to something like insertion of a new fact that may not be properly sourced." Again thanks for the gratuitous condescension and veiled insults - I am getting used to that from the selfavowed upholders of civility by now. Please. And yes I admit wholeheartedly that I consider Giraffedata to be an utterly useless editor who is in no way improving the encyclopedia, but merely wasting other peoples time - but the purpose of this entire discussion is exactly not to enforce that view on others, but to find a way to deal with the problems that this approach would cause if it were generally adopted by others.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 23:22, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
WP:EDITWAR: 'Note that an editor who repeatedly restores his or her preferred version is edit warring, whether or not the edits were justifiable: "but my edits were right, so it wasn't edit warring" is no defense.' You self-admittedly directly revert Giraffedata, and have vowed on this talk page to continue to do so, programmatically and pointedly: 'I for one am not going to back down, and ... I will not be ... gracious about it'. For I think the fourth time, I demand proof that Giraffedata is actually engaging in reverts at all. What I see is that he sometimes makes similar edits to the same page, sometimes months after the fact. These do not constitute reverts. But if he once in a while incidentally makes the same edit, it doesn't establish anything like a pattern of editwarring as defined at WP:EDITWAR policy. It's unlikely that any regular editor has never incidentally made the same minor editor long after having made it once before. Next, an observation that some things, like insertion of alleged facts without sources, trigger specific policy concerns, like compliance with WP:V, while making a stylistic change does not trigger them, is not "inventing policy on the spot", it's reading comprehension and basic reasoning. Thanks for at least and at last conceding that you have what we can all see is an intense personality conflict with Giraffedata. No new policy needs to address that. More to the main point, we don't need a new policy that sharply conflicts with established policy, to address some evidence-free hypothetical, like people doing stupid or malicious things with tools like AWB, when we already have permissions approval and revocation processes for them. I think I've covered every point I need to about this proposal and your defenses of it, and it already has so many other objectors that it could never gain consensus, so I'm skeptical that I need to respond here further. My interaction with you directly is just getting circular because you keeping going back to emotive complaints about who is asking evidence instead of providing the evidence. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I know this discussion isn't supposed to be about the word "comprise", my efforts to minimize its use to mean "compose" in Wikipedia, or me, but since I'm being used as the primary example of the problematic behavior, I want to correct a few misconceptions a person could have after reading some of the above: "comprised of" is not a pet peeve of mine; and I don't enforce any particular grammar in Wikipedia.
"Comprised of" does not peeve me any more than about a hundred other forms of fractured English, and probably a thousand other human behaviors, that are common. And it doesn't peeve me more than it peeves everyone else. There are plenty of people who are equally peeved by this - I find them everywhere I look. But I have probably read more "comprised of" than anyone in the world, and have become desensitized to it like a surgeon is to blood.
Enforcing a view would be watching an article and reverting any attempt to change it to something inconsistent with that view. In contrast, I edit an article once. That's nearly always enough, but in rare cases, someone changes it back to its original wording any time I touch it. 2-3 times a year, I'll find that same article again and edit it again. This is entirely reasonable, because any day, the owner of an article could retire or otherwise loosen his grip on the article and give the rest of us a shot. And it's simply not a great burden on someone who cares enough about these two words to argue about it to reinsert them 2-3 times a year. Wikipedia even provides a convenient "I'm right and you're wrong" button for that. Ideally, the person would seek a compromise, but I certainly don't insist. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 02:29, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bryan, I would suggest that when you change some bit of wording, and another editor reverts your edit... you should be the one who reaches out and seeks a compromise. Try discussion rather than slow revert warring. If you are sure that your reverted edit is right ... don't just go back a few months later and make the same rejected edit again... go to the article talk page and persuade the other editor to see your point of view - engage in discussion. Blueboar (talk) 12:17, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you missed my point. I don't seek compromise because I just roll over and give the other person what he wants -- let someone else fight him on it while I work on things I do better. I don't consider it a reversion to make a similar edit 6 months later, and I certainly don't think you can call something that lazy a revert war. There has to be a horizon past which editors are allowed to call it a new day, forget the history of the article, be bold, and say "what's the consensus today". We just can't say that an editor can plant a flag on an article (or sentence) by reverting a change and say the matter is now presumed to be under dispute for the rest of time. On the timescale of Wikipedia, in which there have to be 3 edit cycles in a day to define a revert war, in which conflicts are often resolved by protecting an article for a week or blocking an editor for a day, and it's hard to find an article that hasn't been edited in the last 3 months, 6 months is forever. If an article gets anonymously vandalized twice a year, it doesn't even qualify for article protection - we just say revert the vandalism when it happens and forget about it.
So if we're going to talk about an editor's right to enforce some word usage across the encyclopedia, we're going to have to come up with some example where the editor actually make articles use the word that way when at least one person wants to use it a different way. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 21:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have long advocated a similar approach to weeding out external links. If you get reverted, then move on. Maybe you'll happen to run across the same article in another month or year, but just move on. The person who reverted you might be right or might be wrong, but you can weed out a dozen other link farms in the time that it would take to have a discussion about it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:17, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have no strong opinion on the comprised-versus-composed question, and I understand that that's not the purpose of this debate anyway. The question simply seems to be about the value of that kind of behavior. Is it good for the project when one editor swaps en masse one acceptable phrase for another acceptable phrase based on nothing but his personal preference? Given the contention that apparently surrounds the comprised/composed example, I'd have to say no, it's not good for the project.
While such large-scale behavior may be technically acceptable, it's nonetheless divisive and (rightly or wrongly) a conflict generator, as this and other threads demonstrate. That cost swamps whatever meager benefit we might get from some minor grammatical tweak. ╠╣uw[talk] 14:58, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My comment to the mass-changer is just an observation that I hope may be helpful: when you are changing, your reason is 'you, author, mean something else - so I am changing it to what you mean' - but somehow they have communicated to you what they mean - having done, so - their usage is clear before you changed it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:23, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I believe we're mainly talking about cases where the mass changer does not claim the original meaning is unclear. For example, if someone were to change every instance of "could of" to "could have", there wouldn't be any issue of what was meant by the original. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 21:30, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Re: 'you, author, mean something else - so I am changing it to what you mean' – This essentially does not compute as any kind of analysis of Wikipedia editing. The instant I save a change to an article, there no longer exists any "what I mean", there is only what the article actually says, and how readers around the world are going to interpret it. This is why several of us commenting here think this is just a personal editing spat, with WP:OWN overtones. If you edit something into a WP page, you're giving those words away to the entire world to edit, "mercilessly". — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:22, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Essentially does not compute"? That's an absurd phrase and an absurd thought. You are editing someone else's work always when you edit (unless it's your own work you're revising). That hardly means they own it but you had better know that is what you actually are doing, or you really should not be editing here at all. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:30, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're making the same point I am without seeming to mean to: "You are editing someone else's work always when you edit". Yes, exactly. The obvious consequence of this is when you're done with your edit, the next edit by someone else may be editing your work (which you gave away to the project and the public, so it's no longer yours except in a vague historical sense, evidenced in edit history). The proponent's premise (underlying this proposal, and explictly stated at Giraffedata's talk page, though I've quoted it several times here already) is that he should have more editorial rights than another editor to control the content of an article, in proportion to how much content he's put into the article vs. how much the other did. Wikipedia does not and cannot work that way. Sorry you didn't get the "does not compute" humor; see that article for the cognitive dissonance to which the phrase refers. In a nutshell, the dissonance here is caused between conflating "my own work" (translation: effort I put it in, the past tense), and "my own text" (translation: content I own and control, in the present tense). These concepts are dissimilar, and the second does not apply in any way to Wikipedia. Yet one can sometimes feel about the former the way that one might feel about the latter. This is an impulse that has to be restrained (and re-trained). — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:05, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, your alleged humor is senseless, as it has nothing to do with understanding the meaning of someone's words - and as you agree you are editing someone's words, understanding their meaning is vital. That you think it's just about editorial control, when what's being discussed is mass changes that others object to and disagree with in substance and in how they are being done is just your mistake. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a crusade. Comprised means "composed of", So comprised of means "composed of of". Many people makes this silly mistake. We can say "comprised one-third of" , This is not Simple English Wikipedia. If he is correcting grammar, so what? C E (talk) 13:50, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
He's not just "correcting grammar". He's "correcting grammar that a small number of people believe is already correct". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:17, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To be specific, he's changing "grammar that a small number of people believe is already correct", but which might be confusing to some people, to "grammar that everyone believes is correct", and will be less likely to confuse anyone. bd2412T 00:11, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
C E, you seem to be conflating the verb comprise (which of course has the form "comprised") with the adjective comprised, whose alleged misuse is what some people here don't like. Also, your argument seems odd: "I met up with an old friend for lunch" has pretty much the same meaning (in my idiolect, at least) as "I met an old friend for lunch", and I can therefore say that meet (here) means meet up with; but I don't then go on to say that "meet up with" therefore means "meet up with up with" and thus is a silly mistake. Moreover, WhatamIdoing (and others), our man Bryan is hardly "correcting grammar that a small number of people believe is already correct"; rather, he's doing some rewording of what he and a lot of people (including a high percentage of "language mavens") think is infelicitous (or worse) but a lot of people (including a high percentage of ditto; see the American Heritage Dictionary) think is perfectly OK. (As for actual linguists, they're rarely interested in such trivia.) ¶ I've yet to see either (i) a credible account of confusion caused by "comprised of", (ii) similar indignation over "possessed of" (which flourishes in en.wikipedia), or (iii) an explanation of how "comprised of" is worse than "possessed of". -- Hoary (talk) 00:46, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Here's my answer to Maunus's question: If you are making the same grammatical or spelling change repeatedly, you should:
be right, according to prescriptivists (e.g., all of those reliable sources that say Giraffedata's changes are correct), even if the grammar construction you're removing is "common";
pay (just) enough attention to what you're doing that you aren't correcting grammar or spelling in direct quotations;
not bother UNDOing reversions to the "wrong" version;
not bother starting discussions with people who do not understand the problem you're fixing, although you should reply (or not) to direct messages about the grammar just like you would reply (or not) to any other direct message; and
not keep a list of articles where some other editor prefers a laissez faire approach to grammar, even though this means that you might re-encounter the error and re-fix it later. For manual edits, lists of random articles basically never work in practice anyway.
My main reason for my last three points is efficiency, although some of them happen to have anti-edit warring effects as well.
To give a different example, editors can and should make changes like this one to replace the common, non-standard spelling "alright" with the standard, prescriptivist-approved "all right". But most of the uses in the search results are song titles or direct quotations, and should be kept. (However, in my quick check, looking for this word is a very effective way to find poor writing about pop culture subjects.) Similarly, "alot", which is always considered incorrect, should be fixed whenever you find it outside a title or direct quotation, because this clearly improves the article. But if someone comes along and decides that the original "designers were able to alot a more comprehensive medical reediness kit into missions" is actually better... you know, I can probably trust another editor to handle it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:49, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What is this adjective "comprised"? It's not in Chambers' dictionary. The entry for "comprise" is
vt to contain, include; to comprehend; to consist of (often incorrectly, with "of").
Cosmic Emperor says
Comprised means "composed of".
It doesn't. "Comprises" is the right form, "is comprised of" is the wrong form. "Comprise" does not have a passive form. "compose" does. That's another reason why "comprised of" is wrong and "is composed of" is right. The definition of "compose" is
vt to put in order or at rest; to settle or soothe; to design artistically; to set up for printing; to create.
The passive doesn't imply anything has been put in order, just a set of constituents. I see that "comprised of" is not allowed in patent claims. That's unsurprising since incorrect terminology is not allowed in legalese. "Possess" is a strawman because it can take the passive. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 10:20, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dictionaries, even respected ones, are very poor guides to lexical categorization. As an example, even now most refuse to recognize that intransitive prepositions exist. Rather, dictionaries seem designed not to upset fogeys who prefer not to question what an earlier generation of fogeys taught them, ignoring decades of consensus in mainstream linguistics. (Grammatical understanding is not just a matter of parroting what you heard decades earlier; it actually advances. In fits and starts, and with some missteps, yes; but it advances all the same.) See Geoffrey K. Pullum, "Lexical categorization in English dictionaries and traditional grammars" on the matter. Additionally, if you're going to limit yourself to the definition(s) of one dictionary, then that dictionary had better be very large: I'd recommend the Oxford English Dictionary (oed.com). -- Hoary (talk) 02:18, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't you just say that "actual linguists" are "rarely interested in such trivia"? But now you want us to pay attention to "mainstream linguistics" (none of whom I see cited here on the question of whether this particular phrase is accepted)?
I'm actually not sure that we need to worry too much about linguistics. This construction annoys some people, makes other people believe that Wikipedia is poorly written, may mislead still other people, and can be replaced by something that is always accepted as being good grammar. We should put this in the same category as replacing, say, outdated names for ethnic groups: there's no urgent need to keep it, and there's some good in replacing it. So why not just do that, rather than trying to preserve something that is awkward and that an actual majority of reliable sources say is wrong, or suitable only for informal writing? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:41, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I did indeed say that about actual linguists. By "such trivia" I meant the acceptability of this or that particular expression (here, "comprised of"). I didn't mean lexical categorization (say, whether certain sets of words, exemplified by comprised in a certain construction, are verbs or adjectives). I'd be happier if people paid attention to advances in linguistics -- NB not just advances of the last decade, but those of the last century -- before unquestioningly repeating dictionary pronouncements. I don't think I've contradicted myself here, and I hope that I haven't done so. ¶ Actually I'm in broad agreement with you, WhatamIdoing. (One place where I differ is the worry that "comprised of" may mislead people: I hesitate to say that it couldn't do so, but I don't recall seeing examples of where this was likely.) ¶ I'm sorry that this discussion concentrated on "comprised of" itself before pretty much burning itself out, because I think that ·maunus brought up a more general question that's a lot more interesting. I'm sure that many of us have our own bêtes noires, of whose undesirability we are certain; and I don't claim to know how this should be dealt with and would be interested in some thoughtful and dispassionate commentary. (Yes, I'm sure that "unnecessary, pretentious, italicized snippets of French or Anglo-French" is itself the bête noire of several readers.) -- Hoary (talk) 00:47, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Making it crystal clear
Comprised means "consist of" or "To be composed of" or " to include" .
About the adjective vs verb thing: In most uses of "is comprised of", "comprised" is indeed an adjective. It is an adjective formed automatically from a verb through the participle mechanism. A participle is an adjective formed from a verb. This one is a past participle, which means it is the past tense of the verb, used as an adjective to say that a noun has had that action done to it. E.g. in a "painted house", "painted" is an adjective, a past participle of the verb "paint". In the phrase "is comprised of", according to dictionaries that acknowledge any meaning of that phrase at all, "comprised" is synonymous with another past participle (adjective): "composed".
Now, in "is comprised of", "comprised" can actually be a verb, used in the passive voice. And the difference in meaning can be quite subtle. But that grammatical construction is far less accepted than the adjective construction, because it's the wrong preposition. In passive voice, the agent is usually identified with "by", as in "the house is painted each year by John", not "the house is painted each year of John". So even though people who write "comprised of" are probably not versed enough in grammar to know what construction they're using, I think it's safe to say it's nearly always the adjective construction.
This is just to complete this subtopic because I thought some readers might be interested. It has no bearing on whether "comprised" or "composed" is the better way to say "composed". Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 00:31, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And he is famous in media, I am not mentioning his real name here due to privacy policy.C E (talk) 10:46, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Who's famous in media, and what's it got to do with the discussion? Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 17:53, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
He is very much related to this discussion.Cosmic Emperor 11:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And of what is this res comprised? Consider your pet peeve may be another editor's pet phrase—approach replacement accordingly. — Neonorange (talk) 04:36, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion has proven that Wikipedia's people is comprised of content providers and discontent providers. So what ? Pldx1 (talk) 19:40, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Fascinating discussion, but if an editor doesn't like the wording that was inserted into an article why wouldn't they just revert it?
As is to be expected, there's some issues brought up at Talk:Caitlyn Jenner on how to handle certain aspects of self-identity in Wikipedia articles. MOS:IDENTITY clearly indicates that in issues of self-identified gender, Wikipedia defaults to the most recently expressed wishes of the subject of the article. The question is, to what extent does MOS:IDENTITY apply. Does it apply only to the article about the subject, or does it apply Wikipedia wide, to every article, and in every context. The specific question came up with how to identify Ms. Jenner in regards to her participation at the 1976 Summer Olympics, she identified at that time as a male. We know that in the article about her, we use her preferred name and female pronouns throughout. The reasonable question becomes, in articles where the time period in question does not include the phases of her life where she self-identified as female, do we use her current identity or her historic identity? To put this up to a !vote:
Option 1)
In articles outside of the biography itself, the timeframe of which only covers the period when the person self-identified as one gender, with a particular name, default to the historic name and gender
Option 2)
In every article across Wikipedia, all mentions of the transgendered person should use their current name and gender identity.
I don't really have a horse in the race, but I wanted to see what the consensus was, so it could be clarified in the relevant guidelines and policies. --Jayron32 02:35, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This RfC illustrates recent consensus (or lack thereof) about MOS:IDENTITY, it's worth giving a look. Diego (talk) 12:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Adding a third and fourth option per suggestions in the general discussion below. They seem to be a viable compromises between options 1 and 2 above.
Option 3)
In articles outside of the biography itself, use the person's chosen name, but include previous name in parentheses if directly relevant or when discussing events for which the person was notable and known by their previous name (e.g., athletic awards) prior to name change. Example, in a list of Olympic gold medalists, the entry Caitlyn Jenner (then Bruce Jenner) would be used.
Option 4)
In articles outside of the biography itself, use the person's previous name, but include current name in parentheses. Would be used when previous name is relevant or listed in a historical context (e.g., list of sports awards). Example, in a list of Olympic gold medalists, the entry Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner) would be used. (3 and 4 added by EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 20:32, 2 June 2015 (UTC))[reply]
Option 1 (preserve historic gender)
Support - Thanks for starting this! I support this for historic purposes, such as athletic accomplishments, as well as for past relationships that are over (Kris Jenner was married to Bruce Jenner; she was not married to Caitlyn); but not for continuing relationships (ie Brody Jenner's parents are Caitlyn Jenner and Linda Thompson) —МандичкаYO 😜 02:55, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To add on to Wikimandia (—МандичкаYO)'s point, something definitely needs to be done regarding the marriage aspect; see this edit, where Andreas11213 understandably stated, "This implies that she was in a lesbian relationship when she was in fact not. She was married to Bruce Jenner not Caitlyn Jenner." Flyer22 (talk) 04:48, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The major factor to consider with these other articles is that, as we do our best to get it right with Caitlyn Jenner, we must also get it right with Kris Jenner as this is also a WP:BLP. So on Kris Jenner's article, it would not be particularly fair or accurate to say her wife for 20 years was Caitlyn Jenner. That would be very misleading in a biography about her, because yes it does imply she was a lesbian, or she that knew Bruce identified as Caitlyn even though she claims she didn't, or any of of the complicated things that we have no business trying to work around. —МандичкаYO 😜 05:01, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikimandia: Kris Jenner's page would state that she was married to Caitlyn Jenner while she was living as a man. Ogresssmash! 22:02, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That would be incorrect. It would also be incorrect to list "Caitlyn Jenner" as Brody's father. Kris and Brody might not support the use of female pronouns or "Caitlyn" to describe their husband/father respectively. There is no reason to favor Caitlyn Jenner's transition name and gender over the historical name and gender that they presented to other living people or where historical events make the name and gender relevant such as the winner of the Men's Decathlon and credits in movies long since finished. --DHeyward (talk) 10:52, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In general support but there are complications. Jenner's interview mentions being dressed in women's underclothes in the past when presenting as a male publicly, so there is the issue of what gender they considered themselves at what times. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:28, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. We only deal with the public aspect that is covered by reliable sources. Most likely she identified as female from very early in her life and I've not seen anything mentioning a fluid gender where she identified differently. Regardless of what underpants she wore, she was publicly male, won the Men's Decathlon, played multiple male roles in media, fathered multiple children, etc, etc. Whether she wears boxers or briefs or can still pee while standing up is not relevant to historical and public facts. Nor is it relevant to current events where she identifies as female and her name is Caitlyn. --DHeyward (talk) 10:39, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I think it would be silly to start listing "Caitlyn" as a medalist in the "Men's" event. Alternatively, in cases where it's ambiguous which is more appropriate, she can be listed as Caitlyn (formerly Bruce) Jenner? Just a thought. -War wizard90 (talk) 04:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure where I stand yet, but could it not be listed as Bruce (now Caitlyn) Jenner? Vyselink (talk) 19:46, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's called a "redirect". Ogresssmash! 20:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
'legally' is not the threshold under our policy around biographies of living people. To make it that threshold would be to draw an entirely uneven and artificial line (as well as a tremendously unfair one) Ironholds (talk) 07:26, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Should we base Wikipedia on legal definitions, then? A tremendous number of things would need to change. Also, which legal system did you mean? Ogresssmash! 20:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - She's drawn her own line of demarcation for us. Before today, his accomplishments were as Bruce Jenner; from today onward, her life is as Caitlyn Jenner. --Drmargi (talk) 04:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Did she? Awesome. Just when I thought I couldn't like her more, she does that for us!!! —МандичкаYO 😜 05:01, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support obviously this may not apply to every case, but generally pre-Caitlyn Jenner articles and links should be Bruce Jenner articles, links, or accomplishments. That's what redirects are for. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:19, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support During the times of his major public appearances, the Olympics (and all of his athletic career) and all of his post athletic movie and TV career, and celebrity existence until 2015, HE was known as Bruce Jenner, performing in male roles and events. To ex-post facto refer to such a notable identity in a new transgendered identity is to go back and rewrite history. That is not wikipedia's role. In fact, we are specifically supposed to follow sources. The reporting of his accomplishments in anything written before 2015 refers to this individual in a male identity. Before we change every record of his appearance before 2015, somebody please show a source contemporary to those activities using the new female name. Its is clearly impossible because the name did not exist publicly until a few days ago, so all of this change to content is unsourced and against key wikipedia policy. That goes the same for any individual undergoing the transgender change. If they have a historical public identity, we should follow that up to the point in time they announced their change. Certainly we can cross link so we can see who they are now, but for example Chaz Bono was seen millions of American television viewers as Chastity. Bradley Manning is the name reported of the individual originally charged with espionage. These situations are confusing enough to follow, obviously beyond the norm. Repeating: To artificially rewrite history, against the reporting of sources is not wikipedia's role. Trackinfo (talk) 05:45, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Neither is deadnaming or denying a BLP's right to self-determination and self-identity, so your emphasis of male pronouns is unnecessary. I'd suggest revisiting it. Ironholds (talk) 07:26, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Agree that it would be entirely confusing to refer to Caitlyn Jenner competing in male sports. Are we to assume that official Olympics records have been updated to change Bruce to Caitlyn? Seems very unlikely to me. I wouldn't see a problem with the form "U.S. track and field athlete Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner) won the gold medal for decathlon, setting a world record of 8,634 points." That form could be mentioned in the guideline, but it should be a tentative mention. It should be clear that the new name may be shown following the then-current name, but that it's local discretion. And that form is much preferable to "Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce Jenner)" in a male context. Additionally the question of which name to link when both are given is closely related to this question, is almost as important, and probably should be addressed in the guideline as well. "Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner)" or "Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner)"? Or, for that matter, "Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner)"? This will be a battleground issue and will need resolving before long, but I guess we don't need to complicate this discussion further. ―Mandruss☎ 07:33, 2 June 2015 (UTC) Moved to Option 4. ―Mandruss☎ 22:12, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:BLP - The concerns expressed at MOS:IDENTITY apply to all content about the person, not just the biography article, as being the safest with respect to protection of the living person. Talking about "the historic gender" or "historic identity" is one of those misconceptions that the rules in the guideline try to address - gender identity has a biological component, so self-identification is the most reliable source, and in transgender persons often goes all the way to when they presented a different public identity. If the problem is one of using female to someone competing in male disciplines, that can be explained by mentioning the fact that she's a transgender woman - which would be relevant in that context (Transgender in sports is a notable topic). I think using the name used at the time would be OK (in this case Bruce) as it was the name used for registration in the competition, but not using the male pronoun. See Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies/Guidelines and the proposed Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity)#Sex and sexual identities for criteria commonly used by the LGBT wikiproject. Diego (talk) 09:17, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I also think War wizard90's additional idea is even better, listing in some cases "Caitlyn (formerly Bruce) Jenner". As currently in her article (and infobox) it would seem Caitlyn Jenner was married in a lesbian relationship, which is not the case. --Gonnym (talk) 10:04, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to repeal MOS:IDENTITY to avoid that problem as this option proposes, just clarify the sentence. Diego (talk) 10:07, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support using the Caitlyn name in some form in all body-text. For more constrained historical situations (tables, lists, etc) it may be better to use Bruce Jenner with a footnote (or similar) containing the new name and potentially a longer explanation. Stuartyeates (talk) 10:35, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
oppose a blanket "preserve historical gender" as a clear conflict of Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Identity. But we do need to be clear about things - a Caitlyn - Kris Jenner marriage would still be illegal in about half the states. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:23, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@TheRedPenOfDoom:: legal standards may not be the best standard to use here, as even the law is not entirely clear on what happens assuming you are just talking about the US. Ogresssmash! 21:52, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The legal implications are of a concern to us via BLP - implicating that living people were in a "same sex marriage" when such were illegal in all 50 states. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:20, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No offense, but this seems like concern trolling: how does this affect Wikipedia, exactly? You are suggesting a BLP about a living person can't state they were married and use pronouns because same-sex marriage was illegal? What does that even mean? What concern is that? Ogresssmash! 21:59, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLP is quite clear that we do not propagate improper implications about living people. Making claims/implications that someone was in an illegal marriage is one of the many things that we should be quite concerned about. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:16, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support for all historic cases. The person's name at the time of the event is the name that should be used in our articles. ¡Bozzio! 13:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support using historic gender and name in articles talking about past events, although I like the idea of a parenthetical like, "Bruce (now Caitlyn) Jenner." For examples where we already follow this format see Metta World Peace formerly Ron Artest. When discussing his career prior to the name change is is referred to as Artest. After the name change he is referred to as World Peace. We should do the same thing with Jenner. When discussing his previous life and accomplishments, refer to him as a male named Bruce. When discussing her current life and accomplishments, refer to her as a female named Caitlyn. Explain the situation wherever clarification is needed. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 14:57, 2 June 2015 (UTC) (Moving support to Option 4; since that's essentially what I'm arguing here.)~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 18:17, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Kris married, um, the other person when that person went by "Bruce", and they divorced while the other person still went by "Bruce". Kris was never married to the other person when the latter was known as "Caitlyn". To say that Kris married Caitlyn is like saying they are a lesbian couple, which is patently false and thus a BLP violation. Besides, it would be confusing to say, "Caitlyn competed in male sports". It just doesn't happen. Epic Genius (talk) 16:30, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It is way too confusing and contradicts the historic reliable sources otherwise. I'm sure there will be exceptions, but the general rule should be to use the historic gender and name outside of the main bio article when referencing the past. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - MOS:IDENTITY is policy and specifies that we use the current gender identity throughout the article. The subject's preference overrides any and all arguments. WP:BLP does not leave us the option to choose this. Skyerise (talk) 16:52, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SOURCE is also policy, a policy I would suggest is an even bigger policy. We have a dispute between policies and it should be settled by a discussion, and hey look at this, Here's a discussion. Your policy does not trump seeking a solution. As I suggest elsewhere, nobody can produce a historical source for the names and gender identity that were revealed later. In the case of Jenner, "Bruce" is documented winning the Olympic gold medal, "Bruce" was the celebrity, TV and Movie star. "Bruce" is in the opening credits of the Kardashians. Caitlyn appeared into the public's view of this individual in 2015. If Caitlyn is the chosen identity, it was not revealed to the public until 2015. Until that time, based on sources, we should not go back and rewrite information that is contradictory to the existing sources. To do so would be . . . what's the word? . . . its our favorite word on wikipedia: UNSOURCED.Trackinfo (talk) 08:45, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Trackinfo, like I noted in the second subsection, MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline; it's not yet policy, and might not be policy in the future. Flyer22 (talk) 01:07, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not even sure the difference, though Policy sounds more important. Whatever hierarchical level, I have suggested on the Caitlyn Jenner talk page that this MOS needs to be revisited in light of the crazy effect its application is having. Trackinfo (talk) 06:20, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:IDENTITY is NOT policy, it's only a guideline. That's even stated at the top of the page. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:56, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support for historical events per WP:V. The preponderance of reliable sources would say that Bruce won the decathlon, or married Kris, or won the "Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year", not that Caitlyn did. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE) 16:54, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the concerns of harm towards living people justify the exception to using the common name, as WP:BLP override other policies regarding the amount of detail from sources to use in such cases. Diego (talk) 17:12, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For my enlightenment, and possibly that of others, please explain how Ms Jenner will be harmed by our acknowledgement that she won gold in men's Olympics as Bruce, especially if we acknowledge her current name at the same time. Does avoiding harm mean the eradication of any mention that a man named Bruce Jenner ever existed? What policy support exists for that, that doesn't require a ton of subjective interpretation? ―Mandruss☎ 17:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is not in the verifiable fact that Jenner won the competition under the name of Bruce (nor hiding that fact is mandated by the guideline); the problem is using the male pronouns "he, him" on someone who identifies as a woman. See Wikipedia:Gender identity#Self-identification and Wikipedia:Gender identity#Retroactivity (which explains it better that I could), and the various statements by official psychiatric organizations linked from it. As for whether the person named Bruce Jenner that won the Olympics was a man, that's something to ask miss Jenner herself; common courtesy as well as WP:BLP and WP:NPOV require that we don't assume that she was a man merely because other people said so, nor because she looked like one. Diego (talk) 18:09, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's proper to use pages classified as essays as bases for arguments here. They are someone's opinion and lack community consensus; that's why they're only essays. As for BLP and NPOV, I said "doesn't require a ton of subjective interpretation". You can't just throw policy links around, please point to specific language in either policy that clearly supports your claims. ―Mandruss☎ 18:16, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In more ambiguous cases I might agree, but in this case we don't have to ask Ms Jenner now because we know that at the time the person named Bruce Jenner publicly self-identified as male and entered the Olympics as a male. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE) 22:14, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support as a general rule. We shouldn't go back and anachronistically change the maiden name of an athlete to their married name. Nor would we go back and change all mentions of Ron Artest]] to Metta World Peace from the point before he changed his name. The same should be true here. Of course, if the IOC were to go and retroactively change this, then we have an entirely different discussion on our hands. Resolute 17:19, 2 June 2015 (UTC)<[reply]
Strike that, I misread the question. Resolute 17:21, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Strike my strike. I think it remains relevant. Resolute 20:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Jenner should be referred to as "Bruce Jenner" when discussing events that happened before June 1, 2015 and as "Caitlyn Jenner" when discussing events that happened afterwards. It is the same reason we have articles called Fall of Saigon, Battle of Königsberg, and Battle of Stalingrad instead of "Fall of Ho Chi Minh City", "Battle of Kaliningrad", and "Battle of Volgograd". [[[Kris Jenner]] was never married to a woman named Caitlyn, only to a man named Bruce. Bobby Martnen (talk) 17:56, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - It was Bruce who won it at the time. It would be confusing to say Caitlyn as it would give the appearance that Caitlyn actually competed and won it. Keep it simple and preserve what has actually happened and move foward from there.AlaskanNativeRU (talk) 19:04, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - This seems to be the sensible approach. I can't imagine that other encyclopedias, almanacs, and various information repositories would revise their historical coverage of subjects to align with their current gender identity.- MrX 19:12, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Although I'd be in favor of a clearer proposal, I feel inclined to this proposal on the hand. I think the issue is pretty clear-cut: we should use whichever name juridically in force at any given peculiar moment (e.g .Bruce Jenner in 1976, Caitlyn Jenner in 2015). That's a juridical issue, and we hardly can fight against that.
When it comes to gender, we should distinguish between "gender identity" (subjective experience) and "gender" (an immutable biological component). Once an individual is born male, he will always remain a male. That's also the case with medical records. We can pay homage, however, to the individual's "subjective experience" by respecting and acknowledging one's right to choose his/her name. That's different from the biological gender (he/she), though. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 19:41, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Individual's name is a juridical matter. When it comes to that, I think we should use whichever name in force at the particular moment (e.g. Bruce Jenner in 1976, Caitlyn Jenner in 2015). In technical terms, I think that "gender as a subjective experience" is mostly manifested through the choice of name, and by respecting this right we'll afford dignity towards these individuals the best. Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 15:53, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If I wasn't clear, I generally adhere to the sex and gender distinction, "gender" often means "gender identity," and some transgender people consider being transgender a biological matter while other transgender people don't (or consider it a nature and nurture matter). If you reply to me on this topic, there is no need to WP:Ping me. Flyer22 (talk) 14:58, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If Norma Jean Mortenson won a gold medal at the 1952 Summer Olympics, the winner's name should not be retroactively changed to "Marilyn Monroe" on Wikipedia to suit fan sensibilities. Same principle. Carrite (talk) 20:19, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But surely a chart showing gold medalists would be much more informative to the reader if it conveyed that the person they know as Marilyn Monroe was one and the same as the Norma Jean Mortenson who won the medal. Similarly, this list of NBA MVPs relegates to footnotes and links the rather significant fact that the 1970-71 winner, Lew Alcindor, and the 1971-72 winner, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, are in fact the same person. It would give the reader a much more accurate picture of the true history if that were made explicit in the table itself.--Trystan (talk) 03:14, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose in current form. WP:Gender identity explains how names are retroactively changed for trans folks unless the individual specifies otherwise. As mentioned in the discussion below, something like Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce Jenner) would be a good compromise as it respects the person's identity while informing readers of the previous name. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 19:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - It simply makes the most sense and is least likely to cause confusion. Clarity and accuracy should be our primary goal. -R. fiend (talk) 20:21, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - this is transphobic as heck. I note the arguments in its favor are often, if I may quote above, "gender (an immutable biological component)", which is purely false. Gender is not immutable. Hell, sex isn't immutable. Also note harm and BLP issues. I also note that people who aren't transgender always get their wishes respected without comment, such as with Prince, or, more infamously, Drake Bell, who insists that he's going to keep referring to Caitlyn as "Bruce" - even though his own birth name is actually not Drake, it's Jared, and yet Wikipedia covers both individuals without comment. I could make a HUGE list here of people who use a different name than their birth name: essentially half of everyone famous changed their name. Exceptions to the use of old names, such as winning awards under another name, can be explained easily without insisting articles about Laverne Cox, Janet Mock, Carmen Carrera, Geena Rocero, Isis King, Gisele Alicea, Leyna Ramous, Dina Marie, Nina Poon, Juliana Huxtable, Niki M'nray, Pêche Di, etc. all insist on using male pronouns and names for them. Right now, Laverne Cox's article states she has an identical twin brother: did that make anyone's head explode? Do we need to go in and explain that they used to be identical twins because? NO. It's incredibly disrespectful; I'm actually outraged at the votes for this policy, and it sure doesn't make anything "more encyclopedic". Ogresssmash! 20:48, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support for sports achievements I think it is more misleading to list medals won etc. as Caitlyn Jenner as opposed to Bruce Jenner. The context of sports is a gender-divided one: nothing can change the fact that Caitlyn Jenner competed in the men's division as a man in her track and field career. Certainly her biography should not refer to her as "he" during this period, as a biography is more of a continuous narrative, rather than the historic one here. I certainly would not consider referring to her as "Bruce Jenner" on Athletics at the 1976 Summer Olympics as offensive without personal statements to the opposite. Probably a more sensitive approach would be to use the name as competed, but avoid the masculine pronoun where possible using a more neutral "Jenner" instead. In the biography I think we should make reference to her having "competed in the men's decathlon", which is a neutral statement of fact that clarifies the gender division yet subtly avoids making any explicit statement about her gender. SFB 21:23, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support It is misleading to say a female won a male's event in Jenner's case, it is also very confusing at bits for other instances. I feel this should be a case by case basis though. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:00, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - . When it comes to name changes, we always take historic context into account. For example, Saint Petersburg (Russia) has undergone multiple name changes... and we (correctly) use the most modern one as the title of our article... HOWEVER we maintain the use of it's historic names when discussing the city in historic contexts (for example, when discussing the city during WWII, we talk about the "Siege of Leningrad"... we don't retro-actively "modernize" the name to: "Siege of St. Petersburg"). I understand the need for sensitivity where gender Identity is concerned, but accuracy in historic context is also important. So... in the Jenner case, I would definitely change the title of the Bio article - but I would allow the use of "Bruce" when talking about her in a historic context (such as her athletic carrier)... I would also use "Bruce" in other articles that mention her in a historic context (such as United States at the 1976 Summer Olympics) I think it would be historically inaccurate to "update" the name in those situations. Blueboar (talk) 13:08, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but that is such innaposite or poor reasoning that I feel constrained to respond, a living person is not a thing - a city is a thing. This living person known then as X and now Y is not in the least innaccurate. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:00, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then let's take the example that is about a living person ... let's look at a woman athlete who, subsequent to her athletic career, changed her name. Look at Karyn Bye-Dietz. The bio article correctly uses her current married name (appropriate because that is her current name) but our article on United States at the 2002 Winter Olympics lists her by her historic name (ie her maiden name) in the team roster for the Woman's Ice Hockey team (appropriate because that was the name she had when she was on the team). In other words, we use historic names of living people when discussing those people in historic contexts. Blueboar (talk) 12:39, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support use of facts at the time rather than preferences afterwards. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:56, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support While a person can change who they are, that does not make the past change. We should describe things as they happened at the time. Chillum 18:10, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I really don't see why this is necessary, and it seems to me that it basically invalidates people's identities. Cam94509 (talk) 18:28, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Overwhelmingly support – Any other option smacks of pure "historical revisionism". And that's true, whether it's names of people, places, or things. --IJBall (talk) 20:01, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly oppose. The MOS is clear that whatever identity the person adopts should be used for every phase of their life. The guidelines couldn't be clearer. LizRead!Talk! 21:25, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline says specifically says "pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns". It says nothing about name. --Escape Orbit(Talk) 17:07, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Despite the shortcomings of MOS:IDENTITY, you can't erase the past. Life is a continuum. The Dissident Aggressor 22:13, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support: With the former name link working as a redirect, this sounds like the most practical option. If the person in question objects, I'd then support option 4. --Waldirtalk 10:10, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Simply because the other options so poor. Kendall Jenner was not born to Caitlyn Jenner and Kris Jenner, because Caitlyn Jenner did not exist at the time. So Option 2 is historical revisionism and leaves the reader with more unanswered questions than answers. Option 3 is confusing (she was born to Caitlyn and then a second time to Bruce??) and Option 4 seems like a distracting tangent taking the reader off the article topic into someone else's life-story. Caitlyn's identity is fully recognised in her own article, that is her right. But why should anyone have the right to re-write history? --Escape Orbit(Talk) 17:02, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support As others have pointed out, it makes very little sense to list Caitlyn as having won a men's event, but there are other issues. One editor is running around changing all instances of "Bruce" to "Caitlyn" citing MOS:IDENTITY (see example). I asked about this at WT:TV and a suggestion was to use "Caitlyn Jenner (credited as Bruce Jenner)". The problem with this is that at the time it was "Bruce Jenner (credited as Bruce Jenner)". Retroactively changing all occurrences of "Bruce" to "Caitlyn" is effectively changing history, like saying that American astronauts planted six international flags of surrender on the moon simply because the stars and stripes have now faded. Jenner has decided to identify as Caitlyn now, but does Caitlyn deny she was ever Bruce? It's fine to use the present name in the BLP but outside, we should be using what is verifiably correct back whenever, especially when it applies to something like 34-year-old episodes when Caitlyn Jenner did not exist. --AussieLegend (✉) 20:55, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Take the activism elsewhere. Records are historic and changing names on them to suit self-righteous sensibilities is anachronistic and makes us look silly, both. Carrite (talk) 00:59, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - past accomplishments were awarded to Bruce Jenner. It makes the most sense to keep those events surrounding Bruce Jenner with Bruce Jenner's name. We can redirect to Caitlyn Jenner. Inks.LWC (talk) 04:12, 5 June 2015 (UTC) Apparently I !voted twice (I guess I forgot I came here the first time). My second !vote was lengthier and sums up my thoughts better than this one; I have kept that support !vote below, unstruck. Inks.LWC (talk) 02:01, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - A trans person on here will have being trans associated with their past. It makes no sense deny a trans person's identity across their entire past until they come out. It's a serious breach of respect. Gwenhope (talk) 07:01, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - It's important to note that most often, a subject will be referred to with their surname as pretext for a sentence. And on the issue of pronouns, only confusion and inconsistency comes from mixing it up. Wikipedia should be easily read and understood. These things can be dealt with in the lead. Glitchygirl (talk) 10:56, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Historical accomplishments should be attributed to the name in the historical records, that is what is verifiable. This is not just for this specific case but for all cases. We should not be rewriting history, but reporting things as they happened. -- GBfan 11:53, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So basically you are saying that transgender people have no right to be credited by current name for their past accomplishments? They are to be ghettoized and have their accomplishments stripped from them simply because they changed their gender? Perhaps we should do the same to people who convert to Judaism. Or for black people. huh? Skyerise (talk) 12:01, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No I am not saying that transgender people should have their accomplishments stripped from them. Their accomplishments are their accomplishments no matter what their current name. Their previous name should be retained for their previous accomplishments and their new name should be for all new accomplishments, that is what the reliable sources say and so should we. The same should be done for people who convert to a different religion. Let's say a Catholic priest converted to Judaism, we wouldn't say he was a Jew when he was a catholic priest. As far as black people, no one changes their ethnicity/color of their skin so I do not know what that has to do with this conversation at all. -- GBfan 12:27, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So I'm sure you've taken the time to look into this deeply, read the psychological studies about the emotional harm and suffering that transgender people go through and which continues after transition when people insist on using their "real" name, and that because of this most major style guides have decided that they should always be referred to by their new name. And yes, to a lesser degree, we should respect anybody's name change. All it takes is an additional citation. But I guess that's too much work for you to respect people's current identities. Skyerise (talk) 13:14, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I completely respect everyone's current identity, just like I completely respect their historical identity. -- GBfan 13:48, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this retrograde nonsense. Protonk (talk) 13:06, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Protonk captures my feelings well (although I'd probably add more frustrated monosyllabic noises). Ironholds (talk) 13:26, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Seems to me the difficulties encountered in Caitlyn Jenner point to serious problems with MOS:IDENTITY. In both Jenner's Olympic record and marriages, the encyclopedic narrative gets blurred. There's no perfect answer here: we are bumping into the limitations of the language. But I think that, as a general rule, staying with the historical gender allows Wikipedia to be more faithful to the contemporary references we rely on. Barte (talk) 16:00, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yeah, it's way too difficult to add a second reference for the name change. Sorry to put you through so much bother to be respectful to other people. Skyerise (talk) 16:02, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
More faithful to the references? Because, what, the reference might have the wrong name? Like we had this conversation for Prince. Ironholds (talk) 16:36, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the several comments above of Wikimandia, War Wizard90, Fyunck, Trackinfo and MrX: this is a simple matter of historical accuracy. Retroactively renaming/regendering a person who has lived, worked and competed as a man for 65 years -- and for 40 of those years as a very prominent public figure -- is the worst kind of historical revisionism, and begins to take on unintended comical aspects when we attempt to re-write history based on an ideologically-driven public awareness campaign. I am all for acknowledging the present reality of Jenner's gender identity with a measure of compassion and sensitivity, but we must also acknowledge the historical reality that existed for most of the last 65 years. Doing otherwise is simply not factually accurate, and the idea of rewriting Wikipedia sports articles to suggest that Caitlyn Jenner won the Olympic gold medal in the men 's decathlon in 1976 is nothing less than bizarre. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:56, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. We really can't say Caitlyn competed in the men's decathlon or that she was married to Kris Jenner, because both are false. But than again, I'm a male sports fan. CalidumT|C 17:23, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Calidum: Please explain in what way they are false. Are you saying that Bruce and Caitlyn are not the same person? A person won a decathlon and a person married. "Caitlyn Jenner" is a name that references that person and, at least on Wikipedia, is unique. So yes, the individual now named Caitlyn, the same individual, did those things. Why would a name be more important than personhood? Skyerise (talk) 20:29, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I'm afraid that many editors care more about a specific POV and are using this issue as a means of advocacy. What is important is to write articles that are sourced and readable. Using a specific gender thoughtful articles to please activists is a disservice to the reader. Taking into account the timeline of transition (which this option does) is the only way to not confuse the reader. If the activists are offended by this, well tough shit.69.143.188.200 (talk) 19:16, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you think our readers are genuinely so incapable of thought that they couldn't understand the very rudimentary elements of gender transitions, it's you doing the disservice. People seem to be talking a lot about how this is "POV activism": if treating our subjects with human decency and respect is "POV", something is very wrong with what we consider neutrality. Ironholds (talk) 15:31, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - either this or option 3 (I think the person's chosen name and gender should be used, but possibly, in very unusual cases - such as in the case of winning an Olympic medal - the previous name can be denoted. TMagen (talk) 16:52, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - for historical events. The source for the 1976 Summer Olympics decathalon says "Bruce Jenner", not "Caitlyn Jenner", so to change this from "Bruce" to "Caitlyn" violates WP:V and WP:SYNTHESIS. Until we have a source that says that Caitlyn Jenner won the 1976 decathalon, it is synthesis to take one source that uses Bruce Jenner as the winner and another source that says that Bruce Jenner identifies now as Caitlyn Jenner and then take those two sources to mean that Caitlyn Jenner won the decathalon. Inks.LWC (talk) 18:33, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The suggestion that changing "Bruce" to "Caitlyn" (or changing other trans peoples' names) violates SYNTH and/or V has been made before, but is controversial and AFAICT not widely-held. Compare our articles on various chemicals, where sources saying "H2SO4" or "sulphuric acid" has a certain property are routinely cited in support of statements that "sulfuric acid has [such-and-such property]". -sche (talk) 20:44, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see no issue with SYNTH there, because the article would not be reaching a conclusion not explicitly stated by the sources. In those sources, H2SO4 is the same thing as sulphuric acid. In the articles regarding Jenner's accomplishments, they were written before Jenner identified as Caitlyn. In chemistry articles, H2SO4 was identified as sulphuric acid when the article was written; the same is not true of articles written about Jenner pre-transition. Inks.LWC (talk) 21:41, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support People in Wikipedia are notable and if there history is covered in Wikipedia it's generally notable and public. Jenner's transition is very public and virtually all of her public life has been portrayed as male to the public. We cannot rewrite history. Jenner's movie and TV credits will not be updated. Jenner was male when competing in the Olympics. There's no indication that Jenner wishes to separate her public life as "Bruce" from her public life as "Caitlyn." Sensitivities to deadnaming may not even be wanted or applicable to Jenner as she has chosen to transition in a very public way and her fame as "Bruce" is certainly a part of the notability of her transition. We should not be scrubbing her history as if being "Bruce" was shameful or hurtful. It is much more confusing to have names that don't match credits in media or history books. --DHeyward (talk) 10:25, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This would introduce a practice of misgendering into Wikipedia policy, which would be transphobic. The gender assignment done to a person by anonymous health personnel at their birth is no more valid (but rather less valid) than the gender identity a person chooses for themselves. And I find the term "historical gender" patronising and ridiculous. A transgender person has only one gender and that is the one that they say they have. Using outdated pronouns or names and inventing terms like "historical gender" take away transgender people's right to define themselves. - MellowMurmur (talk | contributions) 20:33, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Mild Support Let's not introduce unnecessary anachronism. I don't see anything transphobic or discriminatory, when talking about past events, about mentioning the persona that the transgender person assumed publicly and socially at the time. It's a whole different matter than in an article where this person is the main topic, as many discussions here have established. Option 4 is descriptive and correct enough though. Place Clichy (talk) 12:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Caitlyn Jenner did not exist prior to the publishing of the Vanity Fair article. The former Bruce Jenner article is now correctly titled Caitlyn Jenner, and deals with the subject appropriately. All references in the future should refer to this individual as Caitlyn, and use the appropriate terms her/she, etc. Prior to this year, all references should reflect the accuracy of the history, that Bruce Jenner existed and accomplished those things under that name. I would oppose any of the other 3 alternatives. Onel5969 (talk) 17:42, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Caitlyn Jenner has been in existence since October 28, 1949. She went by a different name publicly until a few days ago, but she was still the same continuous person. It is not historically inaccurate to credit the same continuous person under a different name, though per Options 3 and 4, it makes sense to me to include both names for clarity (but only because she was already publicly notable under her previous name). Funcrunch (talk) 20:04, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Stick with what the references say and don't try to revise historical info. As for this being "offensive", so what. WP:NOTCENSORED applies here. There is a lot of stuff on wiki that is offensive some group or other, some stuff is personally offensive to me, and we have chosen to ignore those concerns when a valid encyclopedic goal is being met. Geraldo Perez (talk) 22:34, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Caitlyn didn't win the decathlon -- Bruce did. It's fine to have a footnote indicating the gender transition and name change, but to suggest that "Caitlyn Jenner" won an Olympic gold medal in 1976 is simply not what happened. I don't see what's so hard about this -- when Caitlyn was Bruce, refer to her as Bruce (that's who she was at the time). To say that Caitlyn won the decathlon is as silly as saying that Bruce is being presented a special Espy for bravery. It's just not how it happened. 173.160.130.14 (talk) 23:37, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The other options would be preferable. Weakening MOS:IDENTITY like this opens the door to wikilawyering from trolls who insist on misgendering people. The status quo version has issues, of course, but they can be resolved through options 3 and 4. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:24, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Option 2 (use most recent gender across all Wikipedia articles)
Support. This is the current consensus per MOS:IDENTITY, which has been thoroughly discused to its current form (search for 'identity' at the MOS archives for many of the arguments held in the Support section which have already been addressed). Diego (talk) 09:17, 2 June 2015 (UTC) - Moved to Option 4. Diego (talk) 13:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Deal with it on a case-by-case basis. There are many places where MOS:IDENTITY is guaranteed to be confusing. Epic Genius (talk) 16:32, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - this is basically policy; MOS:IDENTITY specifies that we use the current gender identity throughout the article. The subject's preference overrides any and all arguments. Skyerise (talk) 16:52, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: MOS:IDENTITY is not yet a policy; it's a guideline. I'm not sure it will be policy in the future. Flyer22 (talk) 14:25, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
generally support as current policy. But there are places where the gender change will need to be made clear in articles outside of the subject themselves. the case of the Caitlyn /Bruce - Kris Janner marriage for example. We run into BLP issues from both parties involved. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - it's incredibly transphobic not to use the preferred pronouns and name of the individual. No one blinks at calling Prince "Prince". There are only a limited series of spaces where the individual's birth gender or name need be indicated, and those would be specific exceptions. BLP is a big issue here, but it's not the only place it would be an issue. Ogresssmash! 20:33, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Per my comments above, that goes against what the sources said at the time. Going against what is reported in sources is a key wikipedia principle that should not be violated. It is essentially wikipedia rewriting history. Trackinfo (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Many media houses preserve historic gender and name when discussing a trans person's past. Wikipedia does not need to blaze a new trail in this regard. Binksternet (talk) 23:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I am with Binksternet on this one, we aren't here to break barriers we are here to write an encyclopedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support The only situation this causes problems with is when the subject waffles on whether they're transitioning or not, in which case it could turn into a chore constantly updating 'all references to the subject in every article to be consistent with their current wishes. But I think that would be the exception, and were it to become an issue... WP:IAR. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:27, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Links to past articles should remain Bruce, or say Caitlyn, then known as Bruce Jenner. --Frmorrison (talk) 16:53, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is really the only way of looking at this that doesn't wind up being super invalidating, and is in line with previous consensus. Cam94509 (talk) 18:30, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Per binksternet. Take your activisim elsewhere. This is an encyclopedia. The Dissident Aggressor 22:13, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - we shouldn't be re-writing history or using sources that aren't there. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:12, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The Decathlon was won by a man named Bruce, the same man who married Kris Jenner. The fact that he wants to be called "Caitlyn" now does not change historical facts. Bobby Martnen (talk) 02:18, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Bobby Martnen, the decathlon was not won by a name, it was won by a person That person is still living and has taken a new name. Are you denying that the person now known as Caitlyn won the decathlon? Are you denying their right to change their name? Or do you think "names" are more important than "persons"? Do you think a person should be denied being properly credited for their past accomplishments just because they changed their name? Or because they changed their gender? Or does the fact that she's now female squick you out and you'd rather not see it in articles you work on? No accusations here, just questions. Skyerise (talk) 19:38, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
the decathlon was not won by a name, it was won by a person More specifically, it was won by a person named Bruce, not by a person named Caitlyn and the name is important. That the person may have changed their name is irrelevant. I doubt Caitlyn Jenner can drive on Bruce Jenner's driver's license or travel on Bruce Jenner's passport and if Caitlyn Jenner was claiming she won the decathlon she'd have to prove that she was Bruce Jenner. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:06, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it is quite common for trans people to use drivers licenses and passports with their previous names on them for a period of time after beginning to use a new name, as there is a lot of paperwork and time involved; each agency has different requirements. I don't know if Caitlyn has changed any of her identity documents yet. But it hardly seems relevant to the discussion of whether to list her current name in a Wikipedia article that links to her biography which explains her gender transition. Funcrunch (talk) 16:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - An over-the-top, extremist misreading of the MOS suggestions. Carrite (talk) 01:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support and suggest a couple of the people opposing read the discretionary sanctions in this area before hitting "save" again. Ironholds (talk) 01:57, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - a blanket ban will produce situations where Wikipedia contains nonsensical or misleading statements. --Carnildo (talk) 02:54, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - It's an issue of respect and simply that. A trans person's wikipedia article will have their transgender nature included. That clears up all the other issues (such as people listed as X gender having won Y gender's event, etc. etc.) Gwenhope (talk) 07:01, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - MOS:IDENTITY reads like a guideline already grounded on the consideration of gender theory, e.g. just as with sexual orientation, gender identity was developed in the womb separate from the body. One wouldn't postulate that a gay man or woman chose to be this way; they must have always been. It's the same with trans people. As long as we point out the exact date of coming out in the lead—Prior to June 2015, Caitlyn Jenner was referred to as Bruce Jenner—there won't be any confusion. Glitchygirl (talk) 10:04, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support as within the spirit of the current MOS:IDENTITY. I'm not quite sure how to handle the supposed thorny BLP issues with implying that Kris Jenner was in a lesbian marriage. I think that Caitlyn being trans and (at least publicly) identifying as male during their marriage is pretty common knowledge; I can't see how a commonsensical reading of anything around Kris and Caitlyn's marriage would be construed as Kris being in a lesbian marriage. --Alison (Crazytales) (talk; edits) 14:25, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for the reasons of historical accuracy which I expressed under Option 1 above. When someone has been a prominent public figure as a man, we should not attempt to rewrite history to reflect later transgender revelations. We can and should acknowledge the present reality of Jenner's gender identity with compassion and sensitivity, but rewriting 65 years of the personal gender history of a prominent public figure is almost Orwellian in character. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:06, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This standard appeals to activists who claim (without any merit) that misgendering a subject in an earlier phase of life harms all Trans people. That it bothers the activist is no concern of ours. Writing comprehensive articles is the only concern.69.143.188.200 (talk) 19:24, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This of course has zero validity, unless you are Jenner. I fail to see how a few Trans people's personal preferences are used as the basis for a policy. 69.143.188.200 (talk) 01:22, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Probably because most trans people are in agreement on this topic. Easily verifiable on the internet and at Deadname. 03:02, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Jenner answered the queston for her in the Vanity Fair article Bissinger apologizes to Jenner for repeated pronoun confusion and asks whether she is sensitive about it. “I don’t really get hung up,” she tells him. “A guy came in the other day and I was fully dressed—it’s just habit, I said, ‘Hi, Bruce here,’ and I went, Oh fuck, it ain’t Bruce, I was screwing up doing it.” Different strokes. The biggest difference with Jenner and most other people (not just transgender people) is fame and celebrity status for 40 years prior to transition. She chose to publicly transition in way that isn't available to hardly anyone. Also, celebrities manage their image. It was true before her transition and it is true after. Virtually everyone doesn't know Jenner any more after her transition than before her transition unless they are personal friends or family. --DHeyward (talk) 09:04, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Now discarding someone's opinion because they are transgender is out of line, although that's not exactly what you wrote. Note that the discussion here is a general one, not about Jenner. Place Clichy (talk) 18:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, that would be sn ad hominem attack. But the flip side is "I is trans" is an appeal to authority, as if trans opinions should have more weight. They don't.69.143.188.200 (talk) 22:12, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We shouldn't be changing history. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:16, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, because that is the BLP and this discussion is about MOS:IDENTITY's application outside the BLP. --AussieLegend (✉) 15:37, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@AussieLegend: So the album articles, then? I note that The Black Album (Prince album) currently describes itself as " the sixteenth studio album by American recording artist Prince" - this is ludicrous! It's rewriting history! He wasn't called Prince at the time! Why aren't you fixing it? Ironholds (talk) 15:41, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There's a practical issue there. You can't really call him "unpronounceable squiggle" in the article. That's certainly an issue where things have to be handled on a case by case basis. --AussieLegend (✉) 15:52, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There's no such thing as "outside the BLP" in Wikipedia. The BLP policy applies to all articles and non-article spaces, everywhere in the project. Diego (talk) 17:44, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the discussion again you'll see here that BLP refers to the subjects biographical article. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:43, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the policy on which MOS:IDENTITY is based, you'll see that whether the content is located or not in the biography article is irrelevant to the protections WP:BLP provides. The reasons why MOS:IDENTITY is written that way do not dissappear when you move to a different article. Diego (talk) 12:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Even if facts are offensive, they are still facts. We recognize more recent changes by acknowledging the current state, not by pretending that history was different than it was. Being deliberately offensive is wrong. Publishing false information is wrong as well. Jacona (talk) 15:54, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support this as my first choice, especially in articles that mention someone who subsequently became notable but who was not notable at the time the article is concerned with. For example (using a non-trans example): someone made the point (apparently in another discussion which has since been archived, or perhaps on WT:MOS) that Michelle Obama's article says things like "Obama attended Whitney Young High School, Chicago's first magnet high school", and Whitney M. Young Magnet High School's article mentions "Michelle Obama" among its alums, even though she wasn't "Michelle Obama" at the time she attended the school. For articles that mention someone who is now known under name Y, but who was notable under name X at the time the article was concerned with (like articles that mention Jenner's Olympic performances), I concede that using only the current name could be less clear than either of the options I have voted on below as my second and third choice options. -sche (talk) 17:58, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then this would also work in the theoretical since precedent is being set. If 20 years from now, former president Barak Obama remarries and decides to take his wife's legal name of Snickley, we would have to go back and change all references of the 44th president of the United States to President Barak Snickley. Sorry but I'm not ok with that. President Snickley pushed through Obamacare/Snickleycare? President Snickley was the first black President? Or other choices, even if mentioned in the article 100 times, every occurrence would be "President Snickley (President Obama)". Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:05, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Doing anything but this would constitute misgendering. The gender assignment done to a person by anonymous health personnel at their birth is no more valid (but rather less valid) than the gender identity a person chooses for themselves. And I find the term "historical gender" patronising and ridiculous. A transgender person has only one gender and that is the one that they say they have. Using outdated pronouns or names and inventing terms like "historical gender" take away transgender people's right to define themselves. - MellowMurmur (talk | contributions) 20:33, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It will depend on the person. From GLAAD media guide -> "Unless a former name is newsworthy or pertinent, use the name and pronouns preferred....". In the case of Jenner, winning the Men's Decathlon as "Bruce Jenner" created her notability and both name and gender are newsworthy and pertinent. Articles that refer to Jenner's olympic achievement and are written historically should use the name and pronouns that are the most comprehensible to our reader. We should not have asterisks, parentheticals, explanations, (i.e. "as Bruce") etc, etc, to explain a transition which is not relevant to the notable historical event or use pronouns that would require such an explanation such as "she won the Men's Decathlon." The whole concept of "respecting the person" is thrown out the window when the focus of every achievement is solely viewed through theitr transition. The wikipedia articles mentioning Jenner are starting to read like "Psst, she's transgender" at every reference to their accomplishments which seems to be the result of activism without regard for the person. --DHeyward (talk) 08:38, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
From a purely encyclopedic aspect, the fact that a woman won a male-specific category seems particularly relevant to the granting of the award. The explanation of how that happened (that the woman at hand is transgender, and was publicly standing as male at the time) requires more clarification than a mere psst, in my humble opinion - and certainly more than total silence or an unexplained redirect. Diego (talk) 10:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per anachronism. Next we know, the Republic of Turkey was defeated in World War I, Napoleon invaded the Soviet Union, and Christopher Columbus discovered the United States. Place Clichy (talk) 12:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Revisionism, writing things directly at odds with the primary sources, is not scholarship. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:15, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Revisionism. We have sources for the info, stick with what they say. Geraldo Perez (talk) 22:40, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both
First of all, it has to be a bad idea to say we need a policy rule now to deal with this one subject's emergency case. We should approach this on a case by case basis in various dispute resolution forums, if need be, before we jump to straight-jacket policy provisions, in that way experience will guide consensus, and perhaps down the road we may make a reflective policy. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We have a policy; it's MOS:IDENTITY. Oddly enough Wikipedia has included articles about transgender individuals before this. Ironholds (talk) 01:56, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sure we have, and we don't need new policy, for all articles because some want a Jenner rule. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:45, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Ironholds: MOS:IDENTITY is only a guideline, it's NOT a policy. WP:V is a policy. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:13, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There's no need to use EXTRANEOUS CAPS LOCK. WP:V is indeed a policy! WP:BLP is also a policy. One of those two is associated with a Board of Trustees mandate to treat article subjects with respect and human decency; guess which? Ironholds (talk) 15:28, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't about WP:BLP, it's about the applicability of a guideline. --AussieLegend (✉) 15:41, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's absolutely about WP:BLP, which mandates treating subjects with respect, when you start arguing that we have to rely on the old details because verifiability is The Most Important Thing. In BLPs, verifiability is not the most important thing. Ironholds (talk) 17:29, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, we're not talking about BLP. We're specifically discussing how this guideline should be applied. The outcome of this discussion will have absolutely no effect on WP:BLP or how it is applied. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:16, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's about BLP. Basically, it would be changing the combined effect of MOS:IDENTITY and BLP from saying that we must treat all living subjects respectfully to saying that we must treat all living subjects respectfully except transgender people, authorizing transphobes to deadname and misgender them, things which are known to be emotionally harmful to transgender subjects. How is that not a BLP issue? Skyerise (talk) 15:44, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But it's not about WP:BLP. MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline extraneous to WP:BLP, which doesn't even mention it. Your argument that the combined effect would be "except transgender people" is absolutely incorrect. Transgender people will be treated with the same respect as anyone else, but without denying history. You have, for example, absolutely no evidence that Jenner wants now to be referred to as Caitlyn for past achievements. That's merely your assumption and you're making the decision for Jenner without considering her personal preference. That's incredibly disrespectful. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think your rationale is quite offensive, harmful and irrespecive against trans-people, Skyerise. Jenner gained his merits in the field of sports as a male, and now without even asking, you'd like to change that? Have you ever considered that gender identity might not be an on/off switch? Jenner, indeed, might have achieved a lot while still cherishing his male gender idenity, and only later had the urge to change his gender, Caitlyn, as nowadays we call her. We should respect that and not look down on the person's identity in play. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 19:23, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree. We simply have to make the choice that causes the "least harm". The harm of deadnaming is documented. Applying BLP would say that we do not deadname unless the subject has specifically said they want to be identified by past name and gender pre-transition. Jenner has not issue such a statement. Skyerise (talk) 16:15, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Who are you to say that this does no harm? Jenner might be proud of past achievements regardless of the name. She might see the recent name change as an achievement in itself, she may even want to keep the the old records as they are. The point is that you don't know and arbitrarily making decisions for people when they haven't asked you to is grossly disrespectful, as well as violating WP:NPOV. Your decision to decide what Jenner wants without asking her may be doing immense harm. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:24, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Since when did we get out of the encyclopedia business and start judging harm in relation to factual information? If some dude is convicted of murder we certainly say so even if he claims he didn't do it and it hurts him emotionally to read about it. We simply go with sources regardless. Fyunck(click) (talk) 16:46, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In the cases of interaction with others, misrepresenting the gender of one, then misrepresents the gender identification of all others involved. Certainly that is a violation of WP:BLP. In Jenner's case, saying his three wives married a woman, his six children were fathered by a woman, and in the mis-representation of Jenner's athletic performances, are some are using the MOS:IDENTITY guideline to claim (in Wikipedia's voice) that Jenner surpassed and preceded many women's athletic performances, thus denying each of other the women who achieved their record setting performances their position of notability. That is a giant snowball of individuals potentially displaced or offended by people using MOS:IDENTITY to rewrite history. I'm also going to say for the record. This is not about transphobia, it is about accurately reflecting history. But that term is getting thrown around, including at me. While my own reputation is not subject to BLP, I'm certainly offended at the base level of name calling that is part of this argument. Stick to the facts. Trackinfo (talk) 17:17, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
From GLAAD media guide -> "Unless a former name is newsworthy or pertinent, use the name and pronouns preferred...." For someone like Jenner where, who in 1976 won a gold medal in the "Men's Decathlon" and the name "Bruce Jenner" is well-known throughout the U.S. as one of the greatest Olympians of all time, both the name and gender are newsworthy and pertinent. It is true that we try to do the least harm and articles in present tense should not be written with wrong names or gender. To the extent that deadnaming is harmful, we should limit it to places where it is newsworthy or pertinent such as in the articles regarding notable historic events. What we should also call out as harmful is the parenthetical/asterisk/"pssst" campaign to make sure that Jenner's transition is mentioned as far and as wide as possible by misusing pronouns such as "she" when discussing the "Men's Decathlon" or deliberately calling out the name in the source and also the chosen name in articles that cover 40 years (such as "Caitlyn Jenner (as Bruce Jenner)" in the olympic articles. These actions don't represent a "minimal harm" activity, they represent an activist approach to making gender transition the only relevant fact in Jenner's life extraordinary life. These activities don't reduce deadnaming and don't reduce harm. Instead, they shrink the person's lifetime of accomplishments into a whisper that sounds like "pssst...she's transgender. did I mention she's transgender? you should know she's transgender" at every turn. That's harmful and counter to the objective of doing the least harm. --DHeyward (talk) 09:44, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Seems like a good compromise that respects the person's identity but informs readers of the historic name. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 20:33, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose having the Olympic records say "Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce Jenner)" is a terrible idea. He won them as Bruce Jenner but now she is Caitlyn Jenner. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, both names with the then-current name first keeps things in the correct time context, which sounds more natural, while acknowledging and showing respect for the change. It's the sensible middle solution. This is what I suggested in my Option 1 !vote, and I don't think we need an Option 4 to cover that solution. ―Mandruss☎ 21:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Mandruss: So previous name first, current name in parentheses? That would work too. Honestly I think a 4th option like that would be better than having people who like that idea peppered through option 1. When this many folks are commenting, keeping things clear is useful imho. I'll make a fourth option unless someone strongly disagrees. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 21:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@EvergreenFir: Yes, "Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner)". Which will read better and without the linking problems of "Bruce (now Caitlyn) Jenner", by the way. I'm all for an Option 4 if you want to do it. ―Mandruss☎ 21:51, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)@Fyunck(click): Do you mean like Cassius Clay oops I mean Muhammad Ali and Lew Alcindor (now Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) or Ahmad Rashad oops I mean Bobby Moore. Looks, we currently have no system. The three examples I just cited show three long-standing Wikipedia articles which deal with name changes in 3 different ways. The first notes the person's current name (ignoring the name they went by during the time period of the article in question) the second notes both names (but gives primacy to the name they were known by at the time) and the third notes only the name they were known by at the time, ignoring the current name. At the very least, Wikipedia should have some guidance for these situations. I'm not saying this solution is the best of the three (or perhaps more to come) options, but there needs to be some standard, which is better than no standard. --Jayron32 21:01, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of tables don't have that kind of room. You also have to take context into it. For way more than half of Ali's boxing career he was known as Muhammad Ali, not Cassius Clay. Same with Abdul-Jabbar (Lew Alcindor). In their field they had dual names and it makes sense to choose the more prominent one in their field. Jenner in sports was only known by one name, Bruce Jenner. The sports fields should reflect that and it's why there is notability in the first place. Just redirect to her current name of Caitlyn Jenner and all will be well. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:03, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, by wholesale ex post facto name changing, wikipedia has the FACTS wrong at your link, against the sources at the time. Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr. won the Olympic gold medal. Under that name, he had a building professional career until he defeated Liston and publicly changed his name. The name Muhammad Ali was publicly unheard of, associated to that individual, until AFTER the Liston fight. I dare anybody to find a source written before the Liston fight that refers to him that way. And the wikipedia article for Ali correctly reflects that history. Same story with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar; find any coverage written during his UCLA career under that name. John Wooden referred to him as Lewis his entire life. Find a 1969 source reporting the NBA draft, what name goes #1? In other places I have shown Olympic athletes, particularly females, change their public names at given points in their career; Mary Decker -Tabb -Slaney,.and we report their name at the time. Trackinfo (talk) 21:48, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck(click): Please use the correct pronouns. Even when speaking of Caitlyn in the past, the pronouns are her/she. We had major problems with this during the Manning dispute. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 21:43, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What? Bruce Jenner was a he when he won the decathlon. Bruce Jenner was born a he. Today Caitlyn is a she. That is proper enough by my book. You can put in this encyclopedia whatever you'd like, but I won't be bound to it on a talk page. Back to the story at hand, in tennis the ladies get their names placed in charts as they were at the time they won tournaments. If they later get married and change their names, their main bio may or may not change with the marriage, but the tournaments keep the old name that they played under. If they married while still playing tennis we weigh the proportion of tournaments played under each name in deciding what to use throughout wikipedia. Keeps it simple and easy. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:01, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Again, please don't misgender. I'll post info about the arb com case related to this FYI. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 00:58, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Don't order people around. If he wants to call him Bruce and "he" that's his business.69.143.188.200 (talk) 01:26, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, it isn't "his business". Intentional misgendering is not acceptable on Wikipedia. There's a reason that administrators have authorized discretionary sanctions for misgendering on articles and talk pages referring to transgender people. Funcrunch (talk) 02:19, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you read the sanctions again. Your interepeation is faulty. Sanctions are for willful disruption. Eg tranny, heshe name calling.69.143.188.200 (talk) 02:21, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I read it, and I don't see it there or listed in Wikipedia policy. I don't feel I'm misgendering but I do feel you are if referring to the winner of the Olympic decathlon as a woman/she/her, since that's probably against the Olympic rules. But it doesn't bother me at all how you want to refer to Bruce or Caitlyn. It only bothers me if you start putting warning notices on my talk page about sanctioning me for some odd reason. I'm only trying to help here, but if I have to adhere to some odd political correctness when I feel I'm helping, or I have to walk on glass whenever I post... then it's probably not worth my while to lend a hand. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:49, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, the notice was deserved for misgendering. Here's the applicable quote from MOS:IDENTITY (emphasis added): "An exception to the above is made for terms relating to gender identity. In such cases, Wikipedia favors self-designation, even when usage by reliable sources indicates otherwise. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns ... that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "[sic]" may be used where necessary)." Skyerise (talk) 14:12, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You'll notice it was talking of titles and prose, and did not say discussion pages. It's different from your WP:Battleground notice and probably why you threw it at me. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:53, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Introducing anacrhonisms degrades the historical accuracy, and therefore degrades this project. Resolute 16:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support 3 and 4 This strikes a good balance between accuracy (which requires using the current name) and readability (which requires including the previous name). Regardless of whether Jenner was really born he and changed, really born he and didn't change, or really born she and mistaken for he, the jury's still out on the truth of it. The polite thing to do in the meantime is take Jenner at her word. We can always change it back to "Bruce" if hard evidence ever proves us wrong. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:27, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not expressing a specific support or opposition to this proposal. There are probably times, specifically in an introductory situation to a longer paragraph, where this might be appropriate. As far as for athletic results or other involvement in timely events, we should be consistent across all of wikipedia and use the name that was published at the time. To do otherwise violates the sources at the time and would put wikipedia at odds with reports of the events. We can wikilink to the article that will further explain the name changes these individuals have adopted later in life. That would go for athletes who changed their names for any reason religious (Cascius Clay, Lew Alcindor), marriage or theatrical purposes (Chad Ocho Cinco). And so if it is a potentially confusing situation, we should have the option to explain where needed. That absolutely does not mean, in the Jenner situation, that we need to put Caitlyn in every result or credit. As I posted into Talk:Caitlyn Jenner, those marks were set by a male athlete named Bruce Jenner and will never qualify to be accepted as women's marks, no matter what the current chosen name is. To put wikipedia policy above what the press reported and what the world governing body accepts means wikipedia policy needs to be changed to adopt to us reporting reality. We should all know; failure to report proper information; to report just what the primary source wishes to be published without perspective is wrong. Trackinfo (talk) 23:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a general rule like this. Case by case, use common sense. Carrite (talk) 01:02, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support 3 or 4 without preference (I'm double-voting, sorry, but this discussion looks like it can't be tallied by # anyway). Either "Caitlyn Jenner (then Bruce Jenner)" or "Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner)" seems fine to me. The important thing here, as I see it, is to write in a way that is respectful of her identity but still useful and clear to Wikipedia editors, and omitting the male name from athletic events that were and still are male-only doesn't serve the latter goal. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:45, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support in context of athletic accomplishments, as a compromise between respect for the athlete and accuracy to the sources. I slightly prefer this option over option 4 because it places respect for the athlete first. --Alison (Crazytales) (talk; edits) 14:27, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification: I think this should apply to athletes who change their name for non-gender-related reasons too, like the oft-aforementioned examples of Mohammed Ali, Karim Abdul-Jabbar, and Metta World Peace. --Alison (Crazytales) (talk; edits) 14:30, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support along with option 4. With both names listed and a footnote explaining the transition, there will be no confusion and it is not "rewriting history". Funcrunch (talk) 15:01, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Fyunck and Resolute's comments above. Historical reality is what it was; present reality is what it is. Change is a universal constant, and life is messy. Imposing retroactive and anachronistic solutions on history is a bad idea; and it's an even worse idea when it's ideologically driven. Bruce Jenner now redirects to the Caitlyn Jenner-titled article; let the bio article explain present reality, and leave the past reality alone in our sports history articles. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:12, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support 3 or 4 without preference per Roscelese. We are in the business of clearly and concisely conveying information. We should convey what name was in use at the time. We should also connect that to the current name. We should avoid making any assumptions about how familiar people might be with the subject, or assume that they will follow every single link. I don't see how indicating "Her name was X at the time, but you may now know her as Y", is anachronistic, and it can be done clearly and concisely in two words.--Trystan (talk) 18:54, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support along with option 4. I would prefer this option but I would be satisfied with either. This avoids confusion and respects her identity. If people want to put her former name for verifiability purposes, I would be fine with that. Options 3 and 4 don't bring up a "historical revisionism" argument or a "not respecting identities argument", and both are relatively concise and easy to do. BenLinus1214talk 20:35, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We don't need both names. We have redirects to avoid that. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support along with option 4, per Roscelese. I have a slight preference for this option as it puts her current name first but I would be fine with option 4. These two options avoid rewriting history, accurately summarize the situation as it happened (which is that she won the medal while competing as Bruce Jenner), and respects the person's gender. Ca2james (talk) 16:08, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support This option or option 1. People change their names for all sorts of reasons, including having different names in different languages, marriage and divorce, gender transition, personal beliefs, or for career purposes (like actors). Beyond the most important reason, of respecting a person's chosen identity and gender, flip-flopping between names is cumbersome, confusing, and prone in inconsistency. If it is truly important, a person's former name can/should be noted - but they should not be identified by that name (or certainly the adherent gender). TMagen (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support this (as my second choice); see my comments above about option 2. -sche (talk) 17:59, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Good compromise between identifying people by what they are called today and not confusing readers who know them by a previous name. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:06, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Why should articles, that aren't even about a particular person, have to include a history of that person's name/gender changes? Surely the only relevant name/gender is the one they had at the point they are relevant to the article? Anything further is setting off on a tangent leading the reader away from the point. Do we have a policy like this for those who change name through multiple divorces? --Escape Orbit(Talk) 18:22, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is incorrect for the same reason as Option 2: anachronism. I don't see anything transphobic or discriminatory, when talking about past events, about mentioning the persona that the transgender person assumed publicly and socially at the time. It's a whole different matter than in an article where this person is the main topic, as many discussions here have established. Option 4 is descriptive enough, and corrects this issue. Place Clichy (talk) 12:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
generally acceptable particularly in cases where the person was significantly notable before "coming out" or where BLP concerns about other living people are involved. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Agree that it would be entirely confusing to refer to Caitlyn Jenner competing in men's sports. Are we to assume that official Olympics records have been updated to change Bruce to Caitlyn? Seems very unlikely to me. Both names with the then-current name first keeps things in the correct time context, which sounds more natural, while acknowledging and showing respect for the change. It's the sensible middle solution. ―Mandruss☎ 22:12, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is how a majority of publishers handle the issue. Wikipedia should not blaze a new trail on this issue. Binksternet (talk) 23:02, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I would support this proposal as well as it lies in the middle more. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:02, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support The talk page for the article on the Decathlon now has this: We can debate the name, but there's no question that Caitlyn is a notable exception to the statement that men typically compete in the decathlon and women in the heptathlon. A woman who has accomplished the amazing feat of winning the Olympic decathlon - an event completely dominated by males -deserves at least a statement about it in this article. Simply putting Caitlyn Jenner would encourage such thinking.Richardson mcphillips (talk) 02:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Although I personally prefer Option 3, per my note in the General Discussion about how cis athlete name changes have been handled on Wikipedia, I think this option is a reasonable compromise. Funcrunch (talk) 04:56, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is the compatible with MOS:IDENTITY, factual and informative, so I don't think they are disrespectful. I don't care much between options 3 and 4, though this one is gaining traction and more likely to lead to consensus (see that many people supporting Option 1 agreed to use both names, and were made bephore options 3 and 4 were created). Diego (talk) 13:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. In the 1976 men's Olympic decathlon, Caitlyn Jenner competed under the name "Bruce Jenner". Excluding "Caitlyn" from the article could be taken as an affront to Jenner (and would likely lead to well-meaning new users putting "Caitlyn" back in). Excluding "Bruce" would create unnecessary confusion (and would also likely lead to well-meaning new users putting "Bruce" back in). The name that Jenner competed under should be listed first, followed by her current name. Howicus(Did I mess up?) 16:20, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. Are you seriously proposing to alter history on the basis of not "causing affront"? Do you realize just what kind of slippery slope that is? Resolute 16:30, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Compiling new knowledge is not rewriting history, it's adding to it. Please don't use such hyperboles. Diego (talk) 16:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not hyperbole. Retroactively changing names of historical record is rewriting history. At the very least, if you are going to do it, do it consistently and go retroactively change the name of every person who later changed their name - either by marriage or for other reasons. Resolute 16:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are countless examples of names being updated in historical listings after an athlete, actor, or other public figure changes their name. I cited one example in the General Discussion below: Muhammad Ali's name listed with Cassius Clay in parentheses for the list of heavyweight boxing champions. Go to a few movie cast listings and you'll see "Joe Schmo (as John Schmo)". Cis people change their names all the time and get acknowledged without people complaining about "rewriting history". It's really not that different here. Funcrunch (talk) 03:36, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And as was explained before, Ali was notable because he was a boxer. We only get one title and Muhammad Ali was chosen over Cassius Clay because it was much more notable. In lists where people are counting victories and stuff it is much better for readers to be consistent instead of putting in both Cassius Clay and Muhammad Ali. If Jenner had also competed a good chuck of her sports lifespan as Caitlyn, then we would have to decide which is better for our readers to follow. Which was more notable in sports/Olympics/track and field events, etc... But that's not the case here. We had to make decisions about tennis great Helen Wills notability and whether we should title her article that or Helen Wills Moody. We went with the former because it was more notable. These decisions are made all the time and editors are usually pretty reasonable on coming to a conclusion. But forcing a conclusion on past historical events because of a sex-change that happened long after sports retirement, doesn't sit too well with the wikipedia way of doing things. At least not from my vantage point. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:11, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I would disagree with both of you and offer a more simple reply: The existence of a mistake made in the past does not represent a justification for repeating that mistake in the present. The proper solution here is to correct those other anachronisms, not create more. Resolute 13:29, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Excluding "Caitlyn" from the article could be taken as an affront to Jenner... Not to mention that excluding it would also be confusing, since Caitlyn Jenner is the title we use for the biography. Both names need to be connected for the sake of those of us editors who have first learned about this person from her Wikipedia article. Diego (talk) 16:35, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Introducing anacrhonisms degrades the historical accuracy, and therefore degrades this project. Resolute 16:12, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That would be a decent argument to oppose Option 2 or Option 3, since they both would state that Caitlyn Jenner won gold in the decathlon. It is not anachronistic to say that Bruce won the medal and is now named Caitlyn, any more than it would be anachronistic to update Thomas Jefferson with facts related to Jefferson's legacy in the 21st century. Articles are not frozen in time. ―Mandruss☎ 16:32, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We're talking about different things here. Updating Jefferson's own article with changes to his legacy is not the same as altering the historical record of articles about the 1976 Olympics by introducing an anachronistic name change. I completely understand that people want to avoid a repeat of the Chelsea Manning mess; respecting the individual as she wishes to be viewed in her biography, and in other articles related to her person, is laudable and desirable. But changing the historical record of her competitions respects neither WP:BLP nor the individual. Rather, it is a violation of WP:SYNTH, WP:POV and others. Resolute 16:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but I still think you're arguing under the wrong Option. Option 4 does not change anything about the competition, it merely inserts a parenthetical note about a later name change. There is nothing even remotely improper about doing that. ―Mandruss☎ 17:26, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, I am arguing under the correct option, and I maintain my opposition for my stated reason. Resolute 18:41, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support using historic gender and name in articles talking about past events, making note of the new name/gender in a parenthetical. I find it preferable to have the past name first in these situations hence, "Bruce (now Caitlyn) Jenner" or "Ron Artest (now Meta World Peace)". With Artest, since his career in basketball continues, I would even be inclined to use that format for things he did before the change, and for things he did after the change say "Meta World Peace (formerly Ron Artest)" to preserve the continuity and make clear that this is the same person; but I wouldn't necessarily connect Bruce with Caitlyn going forward - just backwards, as she's no longer a competitive athlete; I'd only do that where relevant. To be clear, what I'd like to see with Jenner: when discussing his previous life and accomplishments, refer to him as a male named Bruce and note that she is now a female going by Caitlyn. When discussing her current life and accomplishments, refer to her as a female named Caitlyn. Explain the situation wherever clarification is needed. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 18:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support 3 and 4 This strikes a good balance between accuracy (which requires using the current name) and readability (which requires including the previous name). Regardless of whether Jenner was really born he and changed, really born he and didn't change, or really born she and mistaken for he, the jury's still out on the truth of it. The polite thing to do in the meantime is take Jenner at her word. We can always change it back to "Bruce" if hard evidence ever proves us wrong. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:29, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - there would be times that this format would be helpful, but not as blanket coverage for all things in her past life. Especially not for Olympic records and such. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck(click): In your Option 3 oppose you say, "He won them as Bruce Jenner but now she is Caitlyn Jenner." That is precisely what Option 4 says, so I don't understand your oppose here. Further, the description of Option 4 is quite clear that it is not "blanket coverage for all things in her past life". ―Mandruss☎ 08:32, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That was simply a statement, not what should be done to every article. And it's quite clear that it is blanket coverage so I'm not sure what you're reading. The description says "In articles outside of the biography itself, use the person's previous name, but include current name in parentheses. Would be used when previous name is relevant or listed in a historical context (e.g., list of sports awards). Example, in a list of Olympic gold medalists, the entry Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner) would be used. That is pretty much every time as far as I can tell. The Olympics in particular should say simply "Bruce Jenner" and the redirect will take care of the rest. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:53, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck(click): Maybe the language could be clarified even further, but I don't read it as applying to all references prior to June 2015. My clues are "when previous name is relevant" — it won't be especially relevant in all cases — and "e.g., list of sports awards" — it's relevant in our example case because of the official records and widespread news coverage using the old name. In other words, if we currently mention somewhere (outside Caitlyn Jenner) that Bruce Jenner broke his arm in 1970, I don't have a problem with changing that to "Caitlyn Jenner" or "Caitlyn Jenner (then Bruce Jenner)", and I don't think Option 4 would preclude that usage. That would be a case not covered by guideline and therefore local discretion. EvergreenFir crafted the Option 4 language, so perhaps s/he would care to weigh in here. As for whether to include "(now Caitlyn Jenner)" in the Olympics reference, see the comment in my !vote, "It's the sensible middle solution." What I meant by that is that some give is required on both sides if we're going to reach a consensus here. Option 4 requires one side to mention the name "Bruce" in that case, despite their desire to omit it, and requires the other side to mention "Caitlyn" in that case, despite their desire to omit it. It's a compromise, and that's not the dirty word that many seem to think it is at Wikipedia. "The redirect will take care of the rest" assumes that the reader will click through to the target article, and that will often not be the case. ―Mandruss☎ 10:38, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Mandruss:I agree 100% with you that compromise is not a dirty word (like it has often become on wikipedia). Here is how I read Option 4 (and I don't see any other way to interpret it). "We always use Caitlyn Jenner in place of Bruce Jenner. But in rare cases outside the biography, when relevant, it will be ok to use Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner). That's it... no other options." To me that's not right and is blanket coverage. Now if it had said something like the following I might be more likely to support: After June 2015 we will generally use 'Caitlyn Jenner.' There will be some uncommon times after June 2015 where it will be appropriate to use 'Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce Jenner).' Prior to June 2015, when dealing with sports in lists, she will be shown as 'Bruce Jenner.' When talking in prose about the sports achievements, the first mention should be 'Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner)' and all subsequent use should simply be 'Bruce Jenner.' When not talking about sports achievements, prior to June 2015, it will depend on the situation as to whether first use should be 'Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner)' or 'Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce Jenner)', but usually Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce Jenner) will be preferred. As in saying in '1970 Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce Jenner) broke her arm.' But perhaps also '100 year old farmer John remembers sitting little 2-year-old Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner) on his knee and telling the boy about how fast he ran when chased by a bull." This allows some flexibility in usage. To me that's more like compromise. But I didn't write the options nor did I come in here with an agenda. I happened to notice it when dealing with a different situation. That's my two cents, but as it is written I can not support this option. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:56, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Something tells me some clarification is needed, if we disagree this much on the meaning of three sentences. But your proposed interpretation would be incomprehensible to the average editor. Try putting that in a new Option 5 and see if you get any !votes besides your own (include a flowchart please). Nothing like this ever needs to be that complex, and complexity is our enemy when it comes to guidelines. ―Mandruss☎ 20:06, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, @EvergreenFir: wrote option 4. Ask her to clarify the exact meaning since you might be voting for something you don't want. You had asked for compromise and mine is a compromise. It is long but could certainly be shortened. I was simply trying to convey how I thought the usage of Jenner should be handled in a way that I could support it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:25, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Pinged with no answer so I'm thinking it's probably what I had said. Fyunck(click) (talk) 16:50, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I think option 1 is the most practical (since a redirect --or a piped link-- ensures the later identity is correctly indicated), but if the person in question expresses that such treatment would bother them, then this is the right compromise, I think. --Waldirtalk 10:14, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a general rule like this - Case by case, use common sense. Carrite (talk) 01:01, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose One of our roles as Wikipedia editors is to get the facts right. The fact is Caitlyn Jenner has always been a woman, was a woman when she competed in her various Olympic events, and should be recognized as a woman. I see that some are objecting to this on the basis that it's just self-evident that a woman could not have won the decathlon competition in 1976. While it's completely up to the IOC to list the winners how they wish, it's up to use to get it right. There's no real debate that Caitlyn won the Decathlon in the Montreal Olympics. We need to recognize that fact and let people know of that reality. Listing "Bruce Jenner" as the winner is revisionist history - it's pretending that someone besides Caitlyn won. Similarly, Caitlyn needs to be recognized for her other athletic accomplishments. Among those are:
1) Being the best female performer over 100 meters in 1976
2) Being the best female performer over 400 meters, ever
3) Being the best female performer in the high jump in 1976
4) Being the best female performer in the long jump in 1976
5) Being the best female performer in the decathlon, ever.
Again, it is up to the IAAF to ratify times how they see fit. However, it's our duty to note the facts - (1) Caitlyn is a woman, (2) Caitlyn has always been a woman, and (3) Caitlyn actually achieved all these performances.
One of our other important roles as Wikipedia editors is to be effective advocates for social justice. We cannot do this if we commit violence on trans* people by misgendering or deadnaming them. By denying Caitlyn - and the trans* community as a whole - ownership over her own athletic performances, we are erasing her identity for our own comfort. I strongly strongly strongly urge that "Caitlyn" be used universally. 2602:306:808C:2100:7D00:A53D:7E6:9379 (talk) 15:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)CaitlynFan[reply]
We can advocate social justice while still staying within those suggestions. Reporting the facts - as relayed to us by reliable media sources - can be social justice advocacy. For instance, saying "Caitlyn Jenner had the fastest 100 meters of any woman in 1976" is NOT original research. If we said "The IAAF should ratify Caitlyn Jenner's 1976 100 meters as the fastest by any woman in that year" we might be taking it too far. However, simply stating the facts - (1) Caitlyn is a woman, (2) Caitlyn ran faster than Annegret Richter in 1976 - is not going beyond any rule you cited to. 2602:306:808C:2100:7D00:A53D:7E6:9379 (talk) 16:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)CaitlynFan[reply]
I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous. You are first of all an obvious sock since that user's only edits have been to vote here, and second, you are an obvious troll as well trying to delegitimise the conversation by saying extremist things that transgender women would never claim. I'm trans and I think you're trying to dirty the pool to make trans people look both extreme and kind of awful as well. Ogresssmash! 08:40, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that the original piece was second-degree humour, and/or reductio ad absurbum. In this light, I enjoyed reading it. However, for the sake of clarity and now that the IP is blocked, it may be a good idea to bar the vote. Place Clichy (talk) 12:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, forces transgender individuals to be identified using a name that emphasized their past gender first. Uncool. Skyerise (talk) 12:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's a seriously problematic phrasing. There is no "past gender." She was always a woman. It's this sort of clueless phrasing that makes dealing with allies so difficult. 162.235.91.193 (talk) 20:35, 5 June 2015 (UTC)CaitlynFan[reply]
Support 3 or 4 without preference (I'm double-voting, sorry, but this discussion looks like it can't be tallied by # anyway). Either "Caitlyn Jenner (then Bruce Jenner)" or "Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner)" seems fine to me. The important thing here, as I see it, is to write in a way that is respectful of her identity but still useful and clear to Wikipedia editors, and omitting the male name from athletic events that were and still are male-only doesn't serve the latter goal. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:45, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Fyunck and Carrite, and for the reasons of historical accuracy which I expressed under Option 1 above. When someone has been a prominent public sports figure as a man, common sense suggests that we should not attempt to rewrite history to reflect later transgender revelations. We can and should acknowledge the present reality of Jenner's gender identity with compassion and sensitivity, but attempting to rewrite 65 years of the personal gender history of a prominent public figure is divorced from reality. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:22, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support along with option 3. See my comment there. Both make sense to me. BenLinus1214talk 20:36, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We don't need both names. We have redirects to avoid that. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:11, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support along with option 3, per Roscelese. I have a slight preference for option 3 as it puts her current name first but I would be fine with this option, too. These two options avoid rewriting history, accurately summarize the situation as it happened (which is that she won the medal while competing as Bruce Jenner), and respects the person's gender. Ca2james (talk) 16:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support this (as my third choice); see my comments above about options 2 and 3. -sche (talk) 18:00, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Per my opposition to Option 3. Why should articles, that aren't even about a particular person, have to include a history of that person's name/gender changes? Surely the only relevant name is the one they were known by at the point they are relevant to the article? Anything further is setting off on a tangent leading away from the point. Do we have a policy for this for those who change name through multiple divorces? --Escape Orbit(Talk) 18:24, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Although it is wrong to say that a person (actually, a persona) participated in an event when they didn't, it is perfectly relevant to mention their subsequent change. Place Clichy (talk) 12:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
General discussion
For articles where the gender is important, and where the current publicly expressed gender identity would cause unjustified confusion, I think using their publicly expressed gender identity from that historic time frame is the way to go. For articles where that is not important, I'm really not sure. So in this case, because the gender of an athlete in the Olympics is important, I would say continue to use the historic male gender identity in those articles. But if we aren't talking about an athlete, I'm not sure. Say its an article about a company that talks about the CEO. On the one hand, the CEO's public gender identity at the time they were CEO may be interesting to some people. But on the other, it is at least somewhat common for people to say their current gender identity long predates when they started publicly expressing it, and we should try to be respectful of that. It also wouldn't be nearly as confusing as in the athlete example. I don't know how this would be turned into a guideline either. Monty845 02:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, gender is important for sports, as most disciplines use it to create separate categories - usually for good reason. Learning about transgender people competing in sports with a category different from their self-identified gender will be more and more common, now that it is becoming less of a taboo. It makes sense to register a specific sentence in the guideline, but it should be based on the same criteria of the current MOS:IDENTITY. If the topic is confusing to some people, the guideline could help editors deal with it in a consistent way. Diego (talk) 09:33, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For a historical listing on a page of athletic events, the name seems more relevant than the gender. As except for co-ed athletic events (equestrian?), it is assumed that everyone in that particular listing is of the same sex (or identified as such at the time of the competition). I was looking for an example of a prominent cisgender athlete who changed names during their career, and hit upon Muhammad Ali. On the list of heavyweight boxing champions he is listed as Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) for the year 1964. I think doing this on articles referring to Jenner's athletic career - i.e., Caitlyn Jenner (Bruce Jenner) - with a footnote about the gender change, might work. Funcrunch (talk) 03:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of tables don't have that kind of room. You also have to take context into it. For way more than half of Ali's boxing career he was known as Muhammad Ali, not Cassius Clay. Same with Abdul-Jabbar (Lew Alcindor). In their field they had dual names and it makes sense to choose the more prominent one in their field. Jenner in sports was only known by one name, Bruce Jenner. The sports fields should reflect that. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:59, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I can tell you right now, every table involved in this case has room for it. So that's a red herring. Skyerise (talk) 12:05, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They wouldn't in tennis draws... I'm not as familiar with wikipedia track&field nomenclature. Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:17, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
An interesting precedent. I hadn't thought of that angle. Good idea. --Jayron32 03:05, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Funcrunch has it right. When the old name is reasonably expected and perhaps needed for context, include it in parentheses. Otherwise, use current name. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 03:18, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think that might be because of Wikipedia's specific preference/obsession for the "common name" to be used, rather than the accurate name (who cares if the entire world calls it Myanmar, its official name? Common name is Burma!!! No discussion!). In the sports-reference results from 1960, he is Cassius Clay, and his sports-reference profile (based on his 1960 results) he is also Cassius Clay (with Muhammad Ali listed under "other names"). —МандичкаYO 😜 03:19, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Given how WP:RS are treating Myanmar in the past year or so, it is likely ripe for a rename, but that is neither here not there. MOS:IDENTITY clearly lays out an exception for gender identity, the current discussion is merely how to clarify that guideline for articles outside of the subject article itself. --Jayron32 03:29, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Are we seriously comparing a slave state's top-down impressed archaicising spelling of "Burma", which incidentally is pronounced like the word "Burma", with the individual lives of human beings? Ogresssmash! 13:19, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good compromise, but shouldn't the name by which the subject was known at that time come first? Epic Genius (talk) 17:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think gender should reflect the choice of the subject (or in all cases should strive to be neutral where it interferes with proper continuity), but the name should reflect that which the subject was known by at the time. This also raises a question regarding gender-specific achievements. Ie, if Jenner's record was for male decathalon, would we use female pronouns in these cases? - Floydianτ¢ 03:45, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline says "yes", if that's the person's preference. That's the aproach most respecting WP:BLP. Confusion about a woman participating in men's category could be handled by noting that Jenner is a transgender person, which IMHO is relevant in that context. Diego (talk) 12:06, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That Jenner came out as transgendered in 2015 is not relevant to an Olympic competition 30 years prior though. And changing the name from the 1976 events, even to add a parenthetical or footnote introduces anachronisms that, frankly, do the encyclopedia a disservice. If we view Wikipedia as a serious reference, then re-writing history is outside our purview. Resolute 18:37, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ah but see trans-awareness is the new white liberal guilt of today. It's more important that we slaughter the English language in an attempt to not possibly offend someone who lived for 60 years as a male, than it is to be factually accurate and list the name and gender they were publicly identified by at that time. Political correctness be damned, until June 1st they were a male named Bruce Jenner. Today that is different, but 3 days ago they identified as a man, so 30 years ago they most certainly were a man named Bruce Jenner. Unfortunately a case like this brings out the advocates with their cause. - Floydianτ¢ 14:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is a precedent for using names that the athlete used at the time of their athletic achievements. Ron Atest (Metta World Peace), Mike Stanton (Giancarlo Stanton), Domanick Davis (Domanick Williams), Olivier Saint-Jean (Tariq Abdul Wahad), Lew Alcindor (Kareem Abdul Jabbar) and Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali) did not have their records retroactively changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.69.186.3 (talk) 04:02, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, use female wherever possible except in the cases where it would be likely to lead to confusion or implicates something that is not the case. (Her former marriage, at the least. Possibly her athletic accomplishments and her appearance on the Wheaties boxes as well) In the cases where her female name is likely to lead to confusion or false implications, use Bruce Jenner (Caitlyn Jenner). AddWittyNameHere (talk) 07:42, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In sentences where female pronouns would cause problems, a common guideline is to use the last name (i.e. "Jenner competed in male categories" rather than "she competed in male categories"). Using the parenthesis is a good idea when the full name is needed - it's the most informative. Diego (talk) 09:33, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I was speaking mostly of her full name. Names are more likely to lead to confusion and should have a more standardized solution; for pronouns there are multiple valid ways to work around issues—by replacing the pronoun with the surname, by rearranging the sentence so it makes sense ("became a parent" v. "became a father"). Probably more ways to deal with pronoun-related issues that are neither confusing nor insensitive, but those are the two most obvious. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 17:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly encourage all participants in this thread to read all of the Wikipedia:Gender identity essay - and in particular Retroactivity and Common name, which is the topic at hand. It works as a FAQ for MOS:IDENTITY, dealing with the most common objections to it, and reflecting the values that were used to craft the current guideline in defense of BLPs. Would it be a good idea to post it at the lead of this discussion, above Option 1? If there are no objections, I'll post the link there. Diego (talk) 10:14, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The only problem I have with that is that it makes too many presumptions on the part of the transgendered person. For some transgendered people, the act of "coming out" as one gender may be merely the revelation to the public of a gender which they have had their whole life. However, the experience of transgendered people (like all people) is diverse, and the experience of one person cannot be generalized across all people. Gender can be a fluid concept, and while for one person, the act of "revelation" may be what is happening, other people may genuinely be one gender for some phases of their life, and may genuinely be another gender for other phases of their life. It isn't for us to decide, in any one particular case, what gender means to all people at all times. Sure, for some the act is merely a public revelation of a life-long gender (as noted in the essay), but for others the situation is more complex. We're also considering, in that essay, the implicit notion that people's experience exist only on the binary state of one of two genders; or perhaps on a continuum between those two genders. Human experience cannot be reduced to a single axis on any trait; we need to be careful not to minimize the experience of those who identify as a third gender or the genderqueer. My concern with that essay is that it's advice is not inclusive of the range of human experience, and we should NOT assume that all people who "come out" as trangendered are doing so for the same reason as all others. If a person genuinely identified as a different gender at a different phase of their life, we should not minimize that experience any more than a person who identified as one gender, different from their public persona. Both experiences should be considered "valid" (insofar as it isn't any of my or your or anyone's job to determine validity for others in a situation such as this.) --Jayron32 11:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the essay as excluding the genderqueer nor assuming a gender binary; even if many examples deal with the case of transgender persons, the main theme is that of self-identity, whichever that is. It's true that we shouldn't soehorn all experiences into a common category, but that's not what the essay is about, quite the contrary. We do need a standard on how to handle our "default" way to write, so to say, and for transgender people (the topic of this discussion) the most sensible way is well handled by the external guidelines on which our MOS:IDENTITY guideline is based.
Exceptions to the guideline may still be handled case by case. If we find evidence that one particular person doesn't consider themselves to have always been the same gender, the writing for their biography could be handled on the light of the particular expressed self-identification of that person at different times. The problem with Option 1 above is that it encourages doing this even for people who self-identify as always having been the same gender. Diego (talk) 11:23, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I very much appreciate Jayron's commentary about transgender people having different gender identity expressions. And on that point, it is also worth noting that while the term transgender is commonly used in a restrictive sense (for cases such as Chelsea Manning or Caitlyn Jenner), it is also an umbrella term for gender variant people. Because the biology of gender (including the causes of transsexualism topic) is still so heavily debated, with so much of the debate being inconclusive, and the complexities of gender variance, I remind myself to be cautious about making gender identity automatically a matter of biology. For many transgender people, they absolutely believe that there is a genetic basis to their gender identity; for other transgender people, they don't.
On another note: What should we do in cases like this edit, where CloudKade11 changed the label of "father" to "mother" regarding Jenner? How do we know that Jenner identifies as a mother? Flyer22 (talk) 11:55, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)I think, however, that we miss the basic premise of these discussions when we focus on issues like "biology" and "choice" and "genetics" and "environment" and all the rest. The implicit assumption in the above (well meaning) discussion is the same as the transphobic people use to justify their bigotry: They choose to mistreat someone based on the fact that their identity is not valid based on concepts of biology; that a person "chooses" a certain gender, and that choice therefore means that others get to impart "consequences" based on that choice, etc. The first, and again, well meaning attempt is to refute those notions by saying "no, it really does have a genetic or biological basis" or "it is not something people choose". While well meaning, that misses the point entirely. The point (and excuse the emphasis, but I am doing this for clarity, not to shout or be rude), is that people are afforded dignity for no other reason than they are people. When you find someone mistreating a person because they claim that their biology makes them one gender, and they've (in the mind of the transphobic person) chosen to disobey their biology, and you counter that with "no they haven't, their biology and not their choice makes them who they are, even for transgendered people", you've focused on the wrong issue, and ultimately do a disservice to the proper resolution of the conflict. The response is "people are afforded the same basic level of dignity no matter who they are, and that includes the same rights to self-determination and identity that are afforded to all, irrespective of all considerations". That's the end of the debate. That's the point we need to get across. When we make dignity dependent on why a person is the way they are, that opens the possibility that there will be people who don't qualify for dignity based on your debated definitions. Dignity is not optional. --Jayron32 12:19, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jayron32 (WP:Pinging you in case you miss this comment), I know that it's common for transphobic people to use biology against transgender people (I've seen it enough times on Wikipedia and elsewhere), and I've heard all of those types of arguments. I brought up the biology matter above because this post by Diego Moya mentions biology. Your "11:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)" post also made me want to address biology and the fact that gender variance is complex; there are some genderqueer people, for example, who will state that they choose to be a gender and that they actively rebel against the gender binary. I simply wanted to add on to your point about not generalizing transgender people; what I meant is that it's not always simple to say what made a person transgender. Some people (including some transgender people) argue a biological basis; other people (including some transgender people) argue that it's not a biological basis, and then there are the ones that argue that it's nature and nurture (a combination of both, not one or the other). That's basically all that I was stating: Gender identity expressions do not always form the same way. Flyer22 (talk) 19:38, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
See this archived discussion at MOS talk page. BTW, when infoboxes can't properly summarize a complex situation, isn't it common practice to simply remove the problematic fact and explain it in prose? Diego (talk) 12:17, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think the edit should be reverted or removed entirely, and CloudKade11 notified of this discussion, since there's still a huge debate on this. Epic Genius (talk) 17:05, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If anyone seriously wishes to challenge or change Wikipedia's established position on this, I would strongly suggest starting by studying the history of our articles on Chelsea Manning, Wendy Carlos, and Chaz Bono as well as the extensive discussions about the naming of each on multiple noticeboards. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:11, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We really need an official FAQ that summarizes the previous conversations about the guideline, otherwise we'll be revisiting it for every new variation of its application. Diego (talk) 12:17, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think the issue is that if this had been discussed before, it is not self-evident from the way the existing guidance is written at MOS:IDENTITY. The point of the discussion is not to overturn any aspect of that well-crafted guideline, it is to clarify as there is some ambiguity. The point of the discussion is to hammer out how to handle issues which did not come up in the cases like Chaz Bono or Chelsea Manning; neither of them competed in sports where their results were awarded to them under their prior names, a situation which we need to clarify for the current hot topic, but to do so in a way where we don't have to debate it again in the future. It is because this situation has not been clarified for policy's sake that the discussion is necessary. Once this matter is settled, we won't have to deal with this one. That doesn't mean some new, novel problem we hadn't thought up yet won't arise in the future that we hadn't yet considered. The process is not ever going to end; that's not a bad thing. Not because we're rehashing settled policy (which this discussion is not, MOS:IDENTITY is not under challenge), we're dealing with situations we hadn't the foresight to clarify previously. We'll have situations in the future similarly as well. This is just the way it goes. --Jayron32 12:27, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But we have cases that cover transgender identity in the context of their previous careers, like Linda Wachowski and Danielle Bunten Berry, and which were taken into account when drafting the guideline. Current consensus is to use the latest expressed identity and gender pronouns even for the periods where the public identity was a different one (and even on articles about their careers), handling any potential confusion through careful wording.
If the goal is how to clarify the guideline on how its current wording applies in some particular cases, it cannot override its purpose - the clarification must be compatible with what we already have. Or if this discussion wants to change that existing consensus, it needs to address the arguments that lead to it, not merely ignore them nor assert that they are no longer valid. Diego (talk) 12:52, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not doubting whether the discussion happened before. The issue is the current state of the guideline has some ambiguity. Insofar as the ambiguity exists now, a discussion is needed now to resolve the ambiguity now. When this discussion concludes, this ambiguity will be resolved to the community's satisfaction, and the wording of the guideline will be changed to be less ambiguous. --Jayron32 13:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. What is ambiguous about that? The people arguing to use male pronouns in Jenner's case are arguing for a radical change in the guideline, not a clarification. If you're referring to what name should be used, then you're right, what name to use is not explicitly spelled out - although we have precedents in similar situations, and there seems to be an evolving agreement towards using both names (one of them in parentheses). Diego (talk) 16:31, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm with you on the pronoun issue. The deal is in articles such as the 1976 Summer Olympics; especialy on mere entries in tables, where the pronoun issue wouldn't come up at all, do we use "Caitlyn Jenner" or "Bruce Jenner" or "Caitlyn (Bruce) Jenner" or some other identifier. The ambiguity is minor, and only exists in specific historic examples, where there is not a narrative to follow to explain the situation. --Jayron32 17:52, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, I understand now better your request for clarification. There seem to be two different aspects to it - whether we should use the previous name, and whether we should use the assigned-at-birth pronouns (sorry for the not PC term). The latter is settled from all the long previous discussions and crafting of the guideline, and would require a very strong new consensus to overturn. The former is open to discussion, and would make for a good adition to the guideline. I think Gaijin42's suggestion below to use the previous name where either gender or the exact name are relevant to the topic (noting that the person as changed names since) may be a viable approach, and compatible with how name changes are handled in other situations. Diego (talk) 18:23, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe that there are any examples of athletic records being changed when an athlete change their name. It would be quite confusing for a reader to see "Caitlyn Jenner" under 1976 Olympic Gold Medal winners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.254.93.62 (talk) 13:33, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with what fun crunch pointed out above-(a parenthetical ref to old name if needed)...but I would also like to know if it would be acceptable or correct to say something like;"Competing as Bruce Jenner, Caitlyn won the gold medal"?73.199.138.75 (talk) 14:57, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is valid by the guideline. Diego (talk) 16:54, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I just think that there's no precedent. Keep in mind that I am solely referring to athletic records, not other aspects of Caitlyn Jenners life. I just think that we should stick to common practice. When Chad Johnson changed his name to Chad Ochocinco, Oregon State didn't update their record books to reflect the change. There are many examples of athletes changing their names, and having their records appear as the name they competed under.104.254.93.62 (talk) 15:01, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that we have to distinguish between the biological and the juridical aspects. In a strictly biological sense, gender is a component that can never be changed (the difference in regards to male and female chromosomes). For example, if the medical record is considered, an individual once born a male will always remain a male, no matter what surgical operations the individual has gone through.
Individual's name, however, is a juridical matter. When it comes to that, I think we should use whichever name in force at the particular moment (e.g. Bruce Jenner in 1976, Caitlyn Jenner in 2015). In technical terms, I think that "gender as a subjective experience" is mostly manifested through the choice of name, and by respecting this right we'll afford dignity towards these individuals the best.
In other words, individuals may choose between their "gender identity" (subjective experience), not between their gender (which is an immutable biological component). Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 16:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please see the arguments laid out at Really a man and Legal name, those concerns have been addressed in the current manual of style. Diego (talk) 16:35, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, the personal preference of this person seems to be to use male pronouns for their past and to start using female pronouns in the future. Because of that, I think that Wikipedia should likewise use male pronouns for this person's past, and female pronouns for the future. Multiple media outlets got statements from this person about their preferred pronoun usage. It is unusual that in this case we have guidance for our manual of style here.
This is supporting evidence to manage these kinds of things on a case by case basis. Reform the RfC to address cases in which there is no supplementary information. This is a poor test case for examining the issue because there is a large amount of contextual publication on this stylistic issue for this case. Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jayron32 would you consider adding a third option similar to Funcrunch's suggestion above? It seems like a good compromise. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 19:51, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not considering anything. I have no horse in the race, and just want to see the text clear at MOS:IDENTITY so we can point people in the direction the community wishes. I'm open to any and all well-explained alternatives. My two ideas were only the two I came up with, I am but one person, and not that smart of one; I fully expect people to have better ideas than I. --Jayron32 19:54, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Jayron32: I ask because I don't wish to refactor you. Is it okay if I go ahead and add a third option then? EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 20:15, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So long as there's an explanation of the option in the introductory text so people know, in some useful detail, what they are voting on. --Jayron32 20:20, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ogress, I don't really like being labelled "transphobic"[5] (I assume you were pertaining to me since you referred to my comment) just because I happen to disagree. By "immutable biological component" I was simply pertaining to the different pair of chromosomes that males and females have, and in strictly medical sense that's what defines the gender. Neither do transgender studies disagree with this, but they emphasize "gender identity" (which I correctly reflected IMO). So what you found "transphobic" is actually supported by the very transgender studies. A quick look into the literature will confirm this. Should there have been misunderstanding, I hope this will help to sort it out.
Oh boy, why won't we just start using Finnish language instead? We've got only one pronoun for 3rd person singular, "hän", both for "she" and "he". ;-) Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 12:33, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Jayaguru-Shishya: First, I really think you'd benefit from reading the (not very long) really a man guidelines. It really covers a lot of ground quickly, with citation and after consensus. Also, this is not a pleasant conversation in general: people are saying very hurtful things about actual human beings, some of whom are doubtless editors here and in this very conversation, so I'm not going to dance around the subject. Second, I didn't say you were a transphobe, I said the idea was transphobic. And the idea is, in fact, transphobic and incorrect: gender is not immutable and, in a strictly medical sense, different chromosomes are not what define gender. Gender and sex are different, and even sex is far more complicated than "chromosomes": it includes sexual organs, secondary sex characteristics, hormones and other things. In fact, most people don't have any idea what their chromosomes are; do you know how often infertile couples discover that the reason they cannot have children is that one of them has the "incorrect" chromosomes for their sex and gender? The estimated percentage of intersexuals - persons whose chromosomes do not match their apparent sex - among the general population ranges from one to four percent. That's a lot of people. So let me ask you: if a transgender woman has female genitalia due to SRS, has estrogen and not testosterone in her system as a result, has female secondary characteristics like breasts, how is her sex "male"? It's not. And not a single thing about that has anything to do with her gender anyway. A transgender woman who has a fully male body in every way is still a woman. We don't check genitals in people unless we're about to engage in intercourse with them, and we definitely don't check genitals before deciding what pronouns to use. That's the remit of gender, not sex. Ogresssmash! 13:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your answer, Ogress. Sorry, I got mistaken that you were calling me "transphobic", but I am glad to hear you weren't :-) Anyway, I can assure you that I am not. I must admit though, that I never distinguished between the terms "gender" and "sex", but considered those more or less synonymous. It seems I was wrong. I just checked from a Finnish-English-Finnish dictionary, and the term "gender" is defined as follows:[6]
Identification as male/masculine, female/feminine or something else, and association with a (social) role or set of behavioral and cultural traits, clothing, etc typically associated with one sex. (Compare gender role, gender identity.)
The sociocultural phenomenon of the division of people into various categories such as "male" and "female", with each having associated clothing, roles, stereotypes, etc.
You are right. It must be the Finnish language that's causing confusion here on my part: in Finnish the word "sukupuoli" means both "gender" and "sex", and to emphasize the English meaning of "gender" as "gender identity" (number one above), we speak about "sukupuoli-identiteetti". So that explains why I was mistakenly using those two terms as synonyms (even the word "gender" already self-includes the identity aspect".
Did that make any sense? :-) Summa summarum, the distinction I was trying to make between "gender" and "gender identity" is no longer relevant. Thanks for correcting me! Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 14:23, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jayaguru-Shishya, coming from this, well, if you read the Gender and Sex and gender distinction articles, you will see that it notes that the terms sex and gender are commonly used as synonyms. But, yes, Ogress and I (and a lot of other people) distinguish between them...and for good reason. Flyer22 (talk) 15:56, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
According to most dictionaries, "gender" and "sex" are synonyms in English too. But because "gender" also means "gender identity" and "gender role," it is best to be extra specific in conversations in which it is relevant. The usage note at the American Heritage Dictionary explains it pretty well. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:55, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The bottom line here is that transgender subjects are usually forced to change their name. They deserve to be credited for all their past accomplishments under their new chosen name. It's simple enough to add footnotes explaining this along with a citation for the name change. All proposal to do otherwise essentially strip the subject of their right to be credited by the name by which they are currently designated for their past accomplishments. Crediting some accomplishments under their former name deprives them of direct credit for their accomplishments. Since it is so easy to use footnotes to clarify, those arguing against doing so seem to be expressing a deep-seated discomfort with gender change which has no place here. Skyerise (talk) 17:41, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It may be un-related but the fight over Jenner's name is going to street signs as well. [7]. In this case changing the name would effect other people's lives from social security into to drivers licenses. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:09, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification on the meaning of this proposal
MOS:IDENTITY says:
An exception to the above is made for terms relating to gender identity. In such cases, Wikipedia favors self-designation, even when usage by reliable sources indicates otherwise. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "[sic]" may be used where necessary).
I believe the definition of "Option 1" is to change this to:
An exception to the above is made for terms relating to gender identity. In such cases, Wikipedia favors self-designation, even when usage by reliable sources indicates otherwise. In an article whose subject is the individual person, any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "[sic]" may be used where necessary). However, in articles about events involving early stages of the person's life, the gendered terms that match the gender used by most reliable sources for the appropriate phase should be used, even if no longer current.
The article Christine Jorgensen, an article about a trans woman, refers to Christine Jorgensen as she/her throughout. But an example of what option 1 says is that if there were an article about Christine Jorgensen's mother, (I'm not saying there is one; this is just a random example showing how I understand the definition of this option) the section relating to personal life and children Florence (CJ's mother) gave birth to would refer to CJ as "George" and "he". Any part of the definition of "Option 1" that I'm ignoring?? (I'm not saying I support this change; I'm merely trying to clarify what it means. Georgia guy (talk) 15:07, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If this is what is being proposed (which is what many Supporters seem to be arguing for), it would be best to start a new proper RfC with a clearer question. The current thread is worded as a slight clarification of the guideline, but the !votes are calling for a radical restriction of its current scope. It's also unclear what is the scope of the proposed change: should it apply to just sports records? should it affect any article which is not the biography? should it apply to all content referring to the early stages of the person's life, even in the biography? People are supporting all those options which are not part of the original question. Diego (talk) 16:41, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
IMO it should only apply to portions where gender is important. competing in gendered sports, prior spouses were not involved in homosexual marriages, They did not retroactively become the mother of a child. etc This is quite a limited set of places where it matters. "Caitlin went to X elementary school" etc is fine because gender is not relevant to the vast majority of elements in a biography. At a minimum quality every place that matters with the parenthetical (presenting s a male, as Bruce, etc) but that can get very cumbersome. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:22, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Any example?? When talking about a trans woman becoming a parent do you think we should say "She became a parent for the first time" or "She fathered her first child"?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:42, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For that specific example, avoid gender all together and say "Jenner became a parent for the first time". But when talking about a specific interaction especially if it involves another persons actions or POV its more difficult ("Jenner was viewed as a father figure by the Kardashian girls, and tried to emulate their own Father's good traits)" or something along those lines is what I'm talking about. Jenner is entitled to their own gender identity, including retroactively (because they may have considered themselves female the entire time) but they are not entitled to retroactively change the experiences and interactions of others into ones that involved a woman. Such starts to encroach on BLP issues for the others involved. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:10, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah... that example is difficult because Jenner was their father, and now she's a woman. However, I agree that we should avoid unnecessary pronouns or even unnecessary first names. Epic Genius (talk) 21:32, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of people in these discussions are making statements like "Jenner was viewed as a father figure" as if that's going to make people's brains explode - it is fine as is. When reading the article, readers may discover that (for example) Caitlyn Jenner lived much of her life as a man. That's fine. It's not like it's going to cause aneurysms. No one is going to be harmed. It's a little unusual but c'mon, there's a lot of transgender people in the world. There's wayyyy too much weight being placed on speech at Wikipedia, as if what we write here at Wikipedia is going to destroy the world. Just respect people's gender and name choices like we already do with most people. There's relatively little fuss given for most other people who don't use their birth names. IMO, there's zero need to avoid pronouns or skip names - that's just going to be weird. And changing C's old name at the athletic's pages is seemingly causing people to lose their minds... guys, chill. Caitlyn Jenner won awards in men's sports. This isn't going to change anything in the sports world. OMG, was K-C a LESBIAN MARRIAGE?!?!? is first, not likely to happen ever, and second, is covered by the information in the article that Caitlyn publicly transitioned at the age of 65. This is like a drama in a teacup because Caitlyn is a woman and hence uses female pronouns. Trans folk exist and it's seriously not difficult, despite this page exploding, to just handle it. Ogresssmash! 10:16, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 cleanup
@Jayron32 and EvergreenFir: and everyone: Option 3 says "(formerly Bruce Jenner)", which is unnecessarily ambiguous. It's unclear whether that's formerly with respect to 1976 or to present. A reader could figure it out, but we should avoid the need to figure it out if we can. The way to do that is with "(then Bruce Jenner)". I think this can be changed without affecting any existing !votes, as it's only a language improvement, not a change of concept. ―Mandruss☎ 19:09, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Mandruss: My first reaction is that this is a great suggestion. While I'd prefer "then known as", I know that's too much. My thought process on that is that some trans folks would say "I've always been FOOBAR_CURRENT_NAME, people just called me FOOBAR_OLD_NAME back then". But I am probably over-thinking it. I would be fine with changing it to "then" instead of "formerly". EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 19:16, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Unless I'm mistaken, "formerly" has the same problem, so "then" is no worse in that respect. ―Mandruss☎ 19:20, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose it does. Just been thinking on it in general. Again, no opposition to the change. It's shorter, clearer, and addresses the issues you raised. It's a good idea. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 19:41, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not particularly hung up on details. My support for such a notion is that the general concept is good; I'm not going to let grammar get in the way of doing the right thing. --Jayron32 00:11, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
While there are many trans folks who would say that they were always the gender with which they now identify, I seriously doubt many would say that they were always the name that they have now chosen. Funcrunch (talk) 03:28, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How sources are referring to the records matter, and what they are stating
Like I noted at Talk:Caitlyn Jenner, I follow MOS:IDENTITY; I think it's important that we follow it. That stated, when it comes to the records Jenner set, an approach to analyze is this article by espnmediazone.com regarding the ESPY Award that Jenner will be receiving. That article refers to Jenner with male pronouns when addressing the athletic records, but notes that "the decision to publicly come out as a transgender woman took a different kind of courage and acceptance of one's self. To celebrate that bravery, ESPN today announced that Jenner will be presented with the Arthur Ashe Courage Award at The 2015 ESPYS Presented by Capital One." Going by this Twitter post by Jenner, she is excited for the event and perhaps does not mind the male pronouns for a past matter. Keep in mind that when some transgender people, including transgender Wikipedia editors, were insisting that Jenner should be using female pronouns, she was using male pronouns. Whereas many transgender people cannot stand to be referred to by gender pronouns that they do not identify with, it may be that Jenner is not as offended by being referred to by the opposite pronouns, unless perhaps there is an ignorant and/or malicious intent behind it. I'm not stating that we should not follow MOS:IDENTITY; I'm simply posting this ESPY Award article for further thought on the records aspect. Flyer22 (talk) 02:38, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would not read too much into Jenner not correcting or addressing the ESPN article on pronoun usage, especially in a short Twitter post. Speaking from experience, correcting pronouns constantly can be very stressful, and sometimes we let misgenderings go by rather than correct them, simply out of exhaustion. Funcrunch (talk) 03:52, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I was not expecting her to address the matter, especially via Twitter, and blast groups that will be honoring her; I wanted to add on to the discussion about what is or isn't the appropriate way to refer to her past regarding her records, and what she might think of the matter. As has been discussed above, not all transgender people feel that they were the same gender throughout their lives or at every point in their lives. With this edit, Barte stated, "Some thoughts on the matter from the Washington Post and National Review Both reference the Wikipedia entry here, though neither notes the MOS:IDENTITY guidance." If we look at the Washington Post source, it states, "There’s no doubt that it’s insensitive for former Nickelodeon stars, news organizations and just about anyone to refuse to refer to someone by the name he or she prefers — whether that person is Malcolm X, Cary Grant, Muhammad Ali, Chelsea Manning or Jay Z. But Bell’s insensitive declaration raised an interesting point. Did Bruce Jenner or Caitlyn Jenner win those Olympic gold medals and appear on those TV shows? And if Caitlyn Jenner did, must history be rewritten? Is every source that refers to 'Bruce Jenner, record-breaking athlete' — or 'Bruce Jenner, guest star on ‘Silver Spoons — now in need of a correction? Wikipedia thought so. By Tuesday evening, the ubiquitous crowdsourced encyclopedia was redirecting its 'Bruce Jenner' page to 'Caitlyn Jenner' and using the pronoun 'she.'"
If we look at the National Review source, it states, "GLAAD addresses the challenge this way: DO avoid male pronouns and Caitlyn’s prior name, even when referring to events in her past. For example, 'Prior to her transition, Caitlyn Jenner won the gold medal in the men’s decathlon at the Summer Olympics held in Montreal in 1976.' But GLAAD also defines 'gender identity,' which is the thing at issue here, as 'one’s own internal, deeply held sense of being male or female.' That presents a problem. But the past, being common property, is not GLAAD’s to rewrite — particularly given the Left’s logical inconsistency about what has just taken place. The argument for adjusting the historical record to reflect Jenner’s present sensibilities is (at least in part) that 'Bruce' was really 'Caitlyn' all along; 'Caitlyn' did win the medals, we just didn’t know it then. Yet GLAAD and others liken pronoun changes to name changes: Nobody calls Jay Z 'Shawn Corey Carter,' ergo, they should not call Caitlyn 'Bruce.' But what 'courage' has Jenner demonstrated if his transition is not precisely that he got rid of the person Bruce for the person Caitlyn? He has not simply adopted a new name, a new identifier, but a new 'identity.' Both the identifier and the thing it identifies have changed." Because of all of this, I've changed the title of this section to How sources are referring to the records matter, and what they are stating. Flyer22 (talk) 23:06, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Re "not all transgender people feel that they were the same gender throughout their lives or at every point in their lives" - this is true, but since you're talking about Caitlyn Jenner in particular here, it seems most prudent to stick with the MOS:IDENTITY guidelines of assuming current stated gender applies throughout the person's life unless they themselves state otherwise. Of course, unless she's stated otherwise, it is highly unlikely that Jenner identified with the name Caitlyn specifically at the time of winning her medals (and certainly not from birth), but that is why Options 3 and 4 above suggest including both names. I really don't see why so many people (not you) are resistant to respecting a person by including both their current and past names in such a manner; it isn't "rewriting history". Funcrunch (talk) 01:49, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
DHeyward, considering what you stated in this discussion, including that "Jenner has already said she doesn't mind masculine pronouns in the 'Vanity Fair' article and indeed still says 'Bruce' out of habit.", maybe you have something you want to state in this section? Flyer22 (talk) 19:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with ESPN. When they talk about the past historical records and there is no way to disassociate former name and their gender is relevant to history and notability, the least confusing and the most natural agreements should be used. The IOC statement is all in past tense and is simply a matter of fact regarding the Olympic record. It's not their place to confirm Jenner's transition with pronouns that reflect her gender identity when they are not in a position to do so and, as a general policy, risk outing someone that has left their deadname and past. If there is another Olympic Athlete that is not as well known but keeps their mailing address updated privately with the IOC and has told them about their transition but is otherwise private and disconnects from that past, it would be a HUGE mistake for the IOC to respond to requests about that Olympic Athlete with anything other than the historic record. Mixing pronouns that don't match the record would only elicit more questions and may even open those athletes' transition to public scrutiny, the exact opposite of their desire. It's a sure bet that there are news organizations looking for other transgender athletes, public or not, to seek comment. I would have no problem if Jenner petitioned the IOC to change its records, but short of that, they are bound by them. I expect the IOC to keep medical history of athletes as privately as possible including disqualifications as well as transgender athletes that petition to compete as their expressed gender (i.e. a transgender woman athlete that competes as a woman is a "woman" with no asterisk, "formerly known as" or parenthetical explanation of the waiver or even mention of the waiver). I also commented that I think it is wrong to highlight the transition in virtually every article about Jenner. It reeks of placing activism over a lifetime of extraordinary accomplishments. Jenner, the person, won Gold Medals for the 1976 Men's Decathlon. Her transition does not overshadow that nor is it necessary to whisper "transgender" on every page with asterisk, parenthesis, name changes and pronouns. Those that do so are not seeking to minimize harm to Jenner, rather they are seeking to exploit her for her courage to transition so publicly. We should let her be the role model and not decide which event in her life defines her. We simply don't know. ESPN is not wrong and they have undoubtedley consulted with both Jenner, the LGBT community and others to decide how approach this. They will be courageous in their choice and respectful of the people involved and to imply anything else does a huge disservice to our readers. --DHeyward (talk) 20:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To me it is misleading to suggest that Jenner saying she doesn't mind being misgendered - especially at this very early state in her transition - should guide Wikipedia policy. Most trans people expect to be misgendered and misnamed repeatedly by friends and acquaintances for a period of time following transition, and even misgender and misname ourselves as we get used to using our new names and pronouns. But in an encyclopedia which is referred to by news organizations as well as individuals, we should set a higher standard, and not give the impression that an individual trans person's comfort level around pronouns should dictate how we handle gender changes. (Of course, if she specifically said that she was fine being referred to by her previous name and pronouns in Wikipedia articles and news coverage, that would be a different matter.) Funcrunch (talk) 20:11, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The "expect to get misgendered" and "misgender and misname ourselves" aspects you brought up are very solid points, Funcrunch. I think that the "getting used to" aspect is something we should always keep in mind with regard to transgender people, their families, and the public at large; for example, it can take a significant time for a mother to use the new name name and pronouns, if she ever does so or tries to do so consistently. I also keep the "getting used to" aspect in mind when considering our Wikipedia editors and the world at large. As we know, Jenner is a person who went by the name "Bruce Jenner," and by male pronouns, for a very long time; so it's natural that people will make mistakes as far as the name and gender go; it's not always a matter of transphobia. Flyer22 (talk) 01:15, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention...there are surely still people who don't recognize the name Caitlyn Jenner, at least at first saying or first glance, but do recognize the name Bruce Jenner. Flyer22 (talk) 01:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To the closer: survey is statistically invalid
I'd like to point out that this whole survey process is pretty much invalid. Transgender people make up an estimated 2 to 5% of the population. [8]. The 2013 study The Wikipedia Gender Gap Revisited measured gender bias in survey completion and estimated that as of 2008, 84% of English Wikipedia editors were male. In the worldwide Wikipedia Editor Survey 2011 of all the Wikipedias, 91% of respondents were male. There are significant differences in the acceptance of trans people between males and females surveyed, with men being significantly less accepting than women of transgender individuals, with white males being the least accepting among males and with the widest gap between white male and white female opinions. [9] Somewhere between 58-63% of males are sports fans, while only 36-41% of woman are fans. [10]
So, 60% of the 84% male editor population is about 50% of Wikipedia editors, while 40% of the 16% female editor population is 6.4%. Even assuming the unlikely high number of 4.6% for the trans editor population, that puts the expected ratio of female+trans to male editors responding at 1 in 6. Basically, there is no possible way that the outcome can be anything but a "male sports fans" opinion, which would be in no way representative of what our readers want and would necessarily be significantly (and likely severely) skewed toward the less accepting male view of transgenderism.
Unless a better way can be found to do this, these results are completely invalid and should be ignored, leaving MOS:IDENTITY as it is, as the previous consensus was arrived at through discussion about transgender individuals who were not athletes, leading to a more balanced and more accepting result. That is, the past consensus more accurately reflects the general opinion of Wikipedia editors as the inherent biases were not exaggerated by the disproportionate attraction of sports fans to the previous discussions, resulting in the slightly less skewed ratio of ~ 1 to 5 female to male response. I could not find statistics on the acceptance of transgenderism among male sports fans, but I suspect that it is much lower than that of the general male population. Skyerise (talk) 21:20, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I thought so too. But as long as the closer stays within wiki "policy", looks at the arguments pro and con, looks at any relevant censoring policies, and checks where consensus seems to be, I think we'll be ok here at this encyclopedia. Any ridiculous bloviating will be ignored by most good closing admins. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:10, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Even if there is systemic bias on Wikipedia and in its users, WP:CONSENSUS is important as well. I assume this will be closed by an admin (or 2) and I'm sure they'll weigh the comments here against site policy. Remember, this is not a WP:NOTAVOTE. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 22:33, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, and the current MOS:IDENTITY guideline was developed by consensus and has been tested several times previous without any significant change to the guideline. In such a case, it is reasonable to ask two questions: 1) is there a reason why this discussion looks different? and 2) does that reason make it likely that this discussion is more or less representative than the previous ones? Skyerise (talk) 22:54, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
When the MOS:IDENTITY guideline was developed in this regard, POV pushing editors (that minority you statistically itemized above) flocked to the discussion because it was in their interest. We now have a very public conflict where interpretations of this MOS:IDENTITY causes conflicts with WP:SOURCE and offends many other individuals under WP:BLP in the process (I've tried to itemize a few in other discussions). When we are dealing with people of lesser notability, that awkward rewriting of history might be tolerable on a minor scale. Now we have a famous notable figure with a 45 year history representing as one gender but now is transgendering to another. This massive rewriting of history puts wikipedia at odds with the established, known reporting of that 45 year history in a very public way. Advocacy groups wish to use this as an example, but it is not wikipedia's job to alter facts. Trackinfo (talk) 21:08, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I asked over at WP:AN for a neutral uninvolved admin to close this when the time comes but have yet to get a reply. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:35, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wondering...Does anyone ever ask for a biased, fully involved admin to close a discussion? Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:15, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. That would be appropriate. Skyerise (talk) 22:36, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We see this fairly often here. A debate comes to an answer that someone does not like and they try their best to explain why consensus is wrong. I am afraid that you will have to accept the outcome of this RFC even if you think the people involved in it are "sports fans". Chillum 22:56, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, Chillum why do you think you are entitled to tell me what I have to accept? I always have the option of just walking away from Wikipedia. Skyerise (talk) 23:00, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Your bee and hummingbird photos are great. Skyerise (talk) 23:04, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe something can be worked out of this proposal is passed? Re-wordingwise maybe? I just don't want it to feel like it is all or nothing, some have argued for this to be a case by case basis. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:07, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you I am very proud of both of those images. You are of course right, if you find the outcome distasteful you do not have to participate. I do think you are being a bit dismissive of other people's opinions. Chillum 23:07, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Only because many of the opinions are uninformed, put forth by people who haven't actually looked into or considered the hardships and disapproval which are a lifelong problem with trans folk, whether they choose to transition or not. Skyerise (talk) 02:10, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's not our problem. We are here to build an encyclopedia first and foremost. High quality articles is more important than trans editors being upset over pronoun usage. And let me be blunt. No group of editors has the right to speak for an entire portion of the population. If you don't like it, well no one is forcing you to stay here. Feel free to fork if you wish, but your demands are becoming disruptive.69.143.188.200 (talk) 06:53, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Read the BLP policy. "Writing an encyclopedia" is neither our first nor foremost task around living persons; treating them with respect is. Moreover, exactly how on earth do you expect to write an encyclopedia free from hideous systemic bias if you adopt policies and make statements hideously offensive to a not-insignificant portion of the population? Encyclopedias require editors and good encyclopedias require diverse editors. And what I'm hearing here is a lot of "hey I got into the clubhouse and clearly everyone is just like me so it's fine". Ironholds (talk) 04:41, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have absolutely no idea how you came to comprehend wikipedia biographies in that way. Like everything else we are here to build an encyclopedia... it's our number one priority. Now, wikipedia gives us Policies and Guidelines to help us achieve that endeavor, and BLP's certainly have more strict rules to follow so we don't get sued. It's why we must source, source, source BLP's. We treat living persons with respect (as we do to dead persons too) but we also tell the truth if it is backed by sources. I'd like to say we never censor, but I know we do in certain cases, so it's best to say we rarely censor. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:00, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Probably by reading the policies, being around when they were drafted and working in a related field. It's not so we never get sued; are you kidding? The legal protection we have is actually stronger if the Foundation sets no content policies. It's because you should treat article subjects with a certain modicum of human decency and empathy. Again, the idea of "we are here to build an encyclopedia...it's our number one priority" - you cannot complete that priority if you are exclusionary to current and future Wikipedians. That I haven't seen you address. Ironholds (talk) 06:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I read them and don't see it where it says we are not first and foremost an encyclopedia. Most were drafted before 2008 when it says you made your first non-anon edit (I was in 2006), and working in a related field I see as a non-factor here at wikipedia. So no policies and leaving us to edit as we please leaves us stronger legally? I don't buy it. I gives us the tools to stop false info from appearing for living people, or attacking them using bias. Our policies were not all set just to treat subjects with kindness. If we did that our articles might be barren indeed. We certainly need to treat subjects fairly, and with npov, but we are not exclusionary to future or current wikipedians. Everyone can edit here. Of course we have to use a certain "modicum of human decency and empathy" but we don't go overboard the other direction either and suppress pertinent facts because people don't like those facts. I don't know where this is coming from, but if it's really the way you feel I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye, but dialog is always good as it helps to see different viewpoints. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:08, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments and sample articles
Admittedly sex-changes, especially so late in life, are tricky. I believe one should follow what the citations/sources say (not what the subject wants). At any give point, Jenner was either Bruce or Caitlyn, and referred to as either male of female accordingly by reliable sources. Cf. the FA article on Augustus, who had several different names over the course of his life and was referred to by historians by those different names; the article reflects this when describing the events of each time period. Other articles, off the top of my head, to possibly consider looking at (transgenders, gender-benders, pseudonyms) are: Wendy Carlos, Brandon Teena, George Eliot, George Sand, Mark Twain. Softlavender (talk) 01:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Clarifying/updating WP:BIRTHNAME with respect to MOS:IDENTITY
WP:BIRTHNAME says that then a legal name change has occurred, mentioning the birth name in the lead sentence is advisable. For example, William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton (born William Jefferson Blythe III, August 19, 1946) ... However, using "birth names" for trans people is usually considered offensive (see GLADD, NPR) and WP:MOSIDENTITY makes it clear that BLPs on trans folks are handled differently and with more sensitivity to the living person's identity and wishes. For many trans people's articles, birth names are not mentioned in the lead sentence (e.g., Laverne Cox, Janet Mock). Nevertheless, it seems the be the norm that if the trans person was notable prior to coming out, the birth name is mentioned in the lead sentence (e.g., Chelsea Manning, Chaz Bono, Kellie Maloney). The only past discussions I can find on this issue are here and here but neither directly address this issue.
I seek to clarify WP:BIRTHNAME with respect to MOS:IDENTITY for BLPs of trans and non-binary people who have changed their name (whether on legal documents or not). Below are some proposed wordings to add to WP:BIRTHNAME directly following the sentence starting In some cases, subjects have legally... and two following examples:
Option 1 - Specifying apparent norm
In the case of transgender and non-binary people, birth names should only be included in the lead sentence if the person was notable prior to coming out.
(from Laverne Cox, not notable prior to coming out) Laverne Cox (born May 29) ...
(from Chelsea Manning, notable prior to coming out) Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (born Bradley Edward Manning, December 17, 1987) ...
Option 2 - No birth name specified in lead sentence
In the case of transgender and non-binary people, birth names should not be included in the lead sentence.
(from Chelsea Manning) Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (born December 17, 1987) ...
Option 3 - Same as Option 1, but change "born" to "formerly"
In the case of transgender and non-binary people, birth names should only be included in the lead sentence if the person was notable prior to coming out. Instead of "born", use "formerly".
(from Laverne Cox, not notable prior to coming out) Laverne Cox (born May 29) ...
(from Chelsea Manning, notable prior to coming out) Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (formerly Bradley Edward Manning, December 17, 1987) ...
I offer Option 3 as a sort of compromise. Part of the problem can be the language of "born" as some trans and non-binary people have never accepted the name their parents gave them, so the name they were called as a child was never really their name. Using "formerly" acknowledges the transition and name change, but also to me acknowledges that it's the name people used to call them, not necessarily their chosen name.
Note, I do not offer a fourth option of using "born" for all people as that seems far too counter to MOS:IDENTITY and, as explained by GLADD and NPR above, does too much WP:HARM. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 19:39, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Option 1 - Norm specified
Support as a compromise (between former/birth/current names), and because the birth name is used in articles of similar nature, where the subject is not transgender but their current name is different. Intermediate names, which use "formerly", can be explained further in the article's body sections. Epic Genius (talk) 20:01, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Our articles should retain the usual format (Wendy Carlos (born Walter Carlos)) for trans people as for non-trans. It should not be a concern of ours that some trans people do not prefer the neutral statement of fact that is the Wikipedia standard. Binksternet (talk) 23:12, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
...your example is of a transgender person, perhaps choose a different example of our "usual format" such as William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton (born William Jefferson Blythe III; August 19, 1946)? Ogresssmash! 08:33, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I don't see an issue here, the use of "formerly" I can see causing more confusion. As it is, we have to explain why we use opposite pronouns when describing a transgendered person. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support and add birth names for all. Wikipedia records facts, and facts are facts. If someone was born with one name and changed it for whatever reason that is a fact. If they find a fact "offensive", well, sorry, but tough! This is an encyclopaedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:52, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Talking to or about a trans person in the present day by referring to a birth name they no longer use can be viewed as offensive. However, the historical record is what it is. So whether or not a trans person was notable prior to coming out and/or changing their name, if we intend to be serious about creating complete, accurate biographies, we need to be neutral about history as well. That being said, if using "formerly" is considered a more neutral way to do it, I would be fine with that as well. The only problematic choice here is pretending that a birth name did not exist. Resolute 17:05, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support option 1 or option 3 (I have no preference). It is extremely important to have the birthname specified in the lead if the subject was well-known primarily by that name at some point. For example, Bradley Manning was already very well-known as Bradley Manning prior to coming out. A reader arriving at Chelsea Manning might legitimately wonder if they had arrived at the correct page, were it not clearly specified early on. The goal of an encyclopedia, first and foremost, is to inform. This is an important part of doing that. Sławomir Biały (talk) 21:29, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I see no point in making an exception to the general rule in this case. -R. fiend (talk) 22:14, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Mentioning the birth name in the first sentence. I also support using the birth name and gender when referring to events that happened before the gender change. Bobby Martnen (talk) 02:21, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's consistent. We don't allow subjects to suppress or downplay information about them just because they find it unpleasant (and frankly that kind of double standard is condescending). A change of gender identity should not be treated shamefully as The Name Change We Dare Not Speak Of. Option 3, using a different word, would be inconsistent, but would at least preserve WP's independent neutrality. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 17:10, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I actually agree with Necrothesp above... this is an encyclopedia that's filled with facts regardless of whether we like it. Add birth names for anyone that changed it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:22, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support: if the birth name is notable (like Manning), it should be in the lead. --NaBUru38 (talk) 23:40, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, which is a depository of facts. The current norm of using prior names should definitely continue in the lead. Onel5969 (talk) 18:42, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support? I really don't think the use of birth names is actually useful, given the existence of redirects. All things considered, I think this option is basically probably the best choice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cam94509 (talk • contribs) 19:08, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - why suppress information that is important to identifying subjects of articles and is all over the internet? Bobby Martnen (talk) 02:22, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support in lede. If we need to give someone's birth name, we can do it in an "early life" section. Something like this: """==Early life== Susan Bloggs was born Joseph Francis Bloggs on 2 December 1971 in Lower Fnord, Ruritania, to Joseph Philip Bloggs and Sarah Smith-Bloggs.""" --Alison (Crazytales) (talk; edits) 14:45, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Option 1 is the better, more nuanced choice. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:27, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support non-inclusion of birth name in lead sentence, but require birth name in both Infobox and in Early life section only if the subject was notable pre-transition.I'd not include the birth name anywhere if the subject was not notable prior to their transition. Most transgender people in states which allow it get their birth certificate reissued with their chosen name and gender. At which point the previous certificate is retired and not available on request. Claiming a birth name in such a case could lead to an article which is verifiably wrong. In fact, I don't think such an article should mention the gender-transition at all, even if there are sources to support it, because it is simply not interesting or relevant unless the subject was notable pre-transition. Give these folks some privacy. Skyerise (talk) 19:53, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe it is accurate to say "most" do anything. It was only this year that passports were allowed to be updated without proof of sex reassignment surgery and only a small fraction of trans people have this surgery (e.g. Jenner did not have this surgery). It is probably accurate to say that "most transgender people that have had sex reassignment surgery" get a new birth certificate but that's it. --DHeyward (talk) 20:20, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We don't usually go out of our way to censor here on Wikipedia. Where known, we give the birth name. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:05, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - It is hard for me to see why birthnames seem so important to editors. Whatever made the person notable enough to be included in Wikipedia should have more weight. Implementing a policy to avoid birth names would help combat deadnaming. - MellowMurmur (talk | contributions) 20:47, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: if the birth name is notable (like Manning), it should be in the lead. --NaBUru38 (talk) 23:41, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 - Use "formerly" instead
Support per my explanation above as a compromise. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 19:39, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Given EvergreenFir's argument, I think this is best solution, actually, for anyone who changes their name. I prefer "formally" rather than "birth name". For notable people, what matters is their commonly known former name, not what name was on their birth certificate. LizRead!Talk! 21:22, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support this seems most accurate, all things considered. Lirazelf (talk) 21:27, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support No one is "born with" a name or a gender; these are assigned. We are all born babies. Funcrunch (talk) 03:59, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support, second choice - I could support this as an alternative to Option 1. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:28, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support offense is reduced that way. But if any are offended, they have chosen to be offended, and for the vast majority of readers it is not offensive in the slightest. People are not often born with a name any way, that step comes a bit later. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The vast majority of readers are not transgender. People affected by gender dysphoria do not "choose to be offended". It causes actual pain for us to be misgendered (including being referred to by our previous names). I voted for this option with the understanding that it would apply only to people who became notable under their previous name (whether assigned at birth or adopted later), as a compromise. Funcrunch (talk) 22:49, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I believe you. I wouldn't dream of calling you by any other name, but at the same time you don't hold any special privilege on how all trans people should be gendered in an article during various phases of their life. Generally we should go by what the sources say. Fortunately for you almost every RS uses the persons preferred gender for present and future tense. But this "carve out" where we have to use the preferred term for all phases unless the subject makes it known otherwise is ridiculous. This is an encyclopedia, not an activist proving ground (not that I think you were acting in this way, far from it). 69.143.188.200 (talk) 01:37, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not "ridiculous", it was already an established guideline in MOS:IDENTITY to handle gender this way. It's not about activism, it's about respect and not causing unnecessary harm. Funcrunch (talk) 02:23, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well even if it causes no difference in offense I am still in favour of this option. The people that have a problem with the former name are going to find it everywhere online and in publications, so all Wikipedia can do is reflect the sources and not overuse the previous name. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:44, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support as a considerate compromise, with the awareness that like some of our other policies the persons most deeply affected will consider it a step short of what they would like, but only (as Funcrunch clarifies) for people who were in fact notable under the other name. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:55, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I support option 1, and I don't have a strong preference on whether "born" or "formerly" is used, which means I'm fine with this option, too. -sche (talk) 21:30, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support I don't think we can definitely say in every case whether "Born" or "Formerly" is the most natural or illustrative for people that are notable prior to transitioning (and I'd argue of they aren't notable prior to transitioning, birth and former name are irrelevant in a BLP). I would use different names with Caitlyn Jenner depending on the style chosen. "Formerly Bruce Jenner" or "Born William Bruce Jenner" as "Born" seems to imply given name at birth and "Formerly" has some choice or common name associated with it. She was known as "Bruce Jenner" regardless of the legal name so that argument has no merit. As a general guideline, "Formerly" is okay though. Personally, I'm less attached to my full legal name than the shortened nickname, i.e. "Hi, I'm X" is an introduciton of who I call myself and is personal. - I am not sure whether the very formal birth name "William Bruce Jenner" is more or less offensive than the common name "Bruce Jenner" but I also don't see how we don't mention the previous common name of a famous person (and let's keep in mind the exceptional case makes poor precedent. A white, male, gold medal athlete is already one of the most privileged classes (is there a more privileged one?) and then going public with a gender transition that makes the cover of Vanity Fair in their sixties doesn't happen everyday. Gold medal athlete to Vanity Fair cover model is two things that rarely happen to one person, let alone the same person and are famous for both now. Jenner does not represent transgender people that generally have higher poverty rates, lower access to proper healthcare and much higher suicide and murder rates. Does anyone know a 60+ year old so comfortable with themselves they'd pose in their underwear for a national magazine for everyone to view/praise and criticize (or would be offered the opportunity? My airbrush has yet to be invented. This is an extraordinary case.) --DHeyward (talk) 19:34, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
General discussion 2
There is already an ongoing RFC about this issue above.amazingly similar discussion above sparked by the same news cycle item.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:42, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see the one above about using past names on other articles. I know they are similar, but I'm asking for a specific clarification to WP:BIRTHNAME. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 19:48, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure we need to suppress information in the public record, so I'd be fine with either option "born" or "formerly", the distinction there seems stylistic. The difference between how we write the narrative of a person's life (using their preferred identity) and noting the existence of facts in the public record which are not matters of dispute. I don't think we even need to suppress the facts for people who were not known under prior names. I don't favor treating this one particular thing differently than other name changes; for example Gerald Ford was never notable under any other name, but we don't suppress his prior names. We also never use any name except Gerald Ford (or variations thereof) in his article except where noting his prior names as plain facts in the public record. I don't see why this should be any different. The exact word used to indicate the prior name isn't important. --Jayron32 19:52, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding of the difference is that Ford's name change did not result from a fundamental identity dissonance that persisted through his formative years. PowersT 18:31, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is not about trying to suppress anything; this is a unique situation, involving the deepest questions of human identity, and in some ways a special sub-case of WP:UNDUE. The amount of sheer gratuitous nastiness and transphobia I'm seeing in some of the comments is deeply disappointing. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:00, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I was thinking that almost all the comments were surprisingly reasonable and non-transphobic, and that this was going mostly smoothly. There are differences to be sure, there always are (just like with diacritics on wikpedia), and there are always a few on the extreme ends, but mostly things have been on an even keel and calm. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:24, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Problem analogous to the above discussion
Suppose the following were true:
In 1976, a woman named Caitlyn Jenner (born in 1949) was thought to have been born in New York. She knows herself as someone born in New York, and all sources revealing her birth place reveal New York as the state she was born in.
Then, in 2015, it was suddenly revealed that Caitlyn Jenner was born in New Jersey. Wikipedia successfully updates its article on Caitlyn Jenner that after finding reliable sources, it now says she was born in New Jersey per this fact. But what would an article specifically related to a 1976 event where Caitlyn Jenner label her under the assumption that it is relevant?? Would it:
Say Jenner was born in New York (as was thought at that time)
Say Jenner was born in New Jersey (as is now known), or
Say Jenner was thought to have been born in New York but is now known to have been born in New Jersey??
What do you think?? (This problem has nothing to do with the U.S. state Jenner was actually born in; it's just a problem that I see the above discussion about how to handle Jenner as an analogy to.) Georgia guy (talk) 14:31, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To take that further, what if you then had a reliable sources with a copy of Caitlyn's birth certificate issued by NewYork–Presbyterian Hospital? Would you say "Caitlyn was born in New Jersey at the NewYork–Presbyterian Hospital"? That makes about as much sense as "She won the Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year in 1976". --Ahecht (TALK PAGE) 14:54, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the article itself says that the hospital is in New York, meaning that anyone born in the hospital was born in New York. Georgia guy (talk) 14:58, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And an article for the "Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year" would say that it is awarded to a male athlete. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE) 15:03, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, nobody back in 1976 knew Jenner was a trans woman. Georgia guy (talk) 15:06, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would say #3 would be best, to say Jenner was thought to have been born in New York but is now known to have been born in New Jersey. Whenever there is conflict in the sources, a Wikipedia article should acknowledge that. Likewise, whenever there has been a change in how a thing is perceived, Wikipedia should acknowledge that. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 16:28, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is a bad analogy. Here's a better one: every time someone moves, they are no longer allowed to be credited for things done in their old town. You play football in small town high school, but as soon as you move away to college, all of your high-school accomplishments can no longer be credited to you and have to be deleted from any article they occur in. You move to Boston and play ball in college, but you graduate and move to New York to pursue a career. All your college football credits have to be deleted from every article they occur in, they cannot be credited to you. You found a company which goes big, you sell it and move to LA. Gotta delete all those references to you from the company and other articles.
A name does not with a Gold Medal in the Olympics, a person does. And that person has the ethical right to be credited under their current name for their past accomplishments, even if they have changed their name. Skyerise (talk) 07:58, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How many times have you updated pages that list female athletes' maiden names so far, to show their married names instead? If a person truly has "an ethical right to be credited under her current name for her past accomplishment, even if she changed her name", then I'm sure that, as an ethical person, you have been very busy updating thousands of articles about women who have changed names due to marriage or divorce. For example, every link to Sanya Richards must go, because "it's her ethical right to be credited under her current name".
Or are you proposing that this is a special rule for transgendered people, and that it doesn't apply to the thousands of cis-gendered women whose names have changed for other reasons? Or maybe this isn't actually any sort of ethical right, but instead something that should be done in a way that best educates and informs the reader, case-by-case, and following individual preferences rather than a mindless "current name no matter what the person says" rule?
I (think I) understand your frustration, but I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:42, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's already the special rule for transgender people, per MOS:IDENTITY, which was correctly decided some time ago. What people are doing here is what they do everywhere, not research or actually try to understand the reason for that, and look for some way to further deprive transgender people of their rights. I have quite a few edits and articles under my belt, and I even have the chance to get hired as a Wikipedian-in-residence, but I will boycott Wikipedia and organize protests against it in the LGBT community if this current status quo is overridden by a bunch of testoterone-poisoned jocks. Skyerise (talk) 11:49, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wait... if you don't get your way you're going to throw a tantrum? Boy that's really helpful, don't let the door hit you on the way out if that happens. You being hired to edit here means diddly squat. We are all equal partners in this encyclopedia. So calm down and we'll see where consensus leads us, as we always do at wikipedia. And be very careful about making threats against Wikipedia WP:BATTLEGROUND. It is against policy. Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:29, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not "my way", it's the general feeling in the transgender community, who deserve the respect of not having their accomplishments credited only under their deadname. And I don't think WP:BATTLEGROUND has any authority over my activities outside of Wikipedia. I've trained new editors before, on Seattle topics and Native American literature topics. I'm sure there are a lot of trans people with a sincere interest in editing Wikipedia but who are intimidated by the complexity of citations, notability and other issues. If I choose to seek them out and get them to contribute to Wikipedia, that's not something Wikipedia can censor. Plus of course organizing trans people to boycott Wikipedia would be ineffective, the percentage in the general population is simply too low to have all that much of an effect. Getting them onto Wikipedia, though... to balance out the "oh, no, I'm not transphobic, I just care about sourcing" crowd.... That just might have an effect. Skyerise (talk) 17:54, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Skyerise, I know what the exception at MOS:IDENTITY says; I even helped update it a few years ago. I'm specifically asking you about the scope of your claim that people have "the ethical right to be credited under their current name for their past accomplishments". Did you intend that sweeping statement to apply to "people" (what you wrote) or only to "trans people" (a small subset of all people)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:32, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should apply it to any person who changes their name. WP:COMMONNAME is fine for objects, but not for people. We should pick up on name changes and move articles and apply the same procedures for any formally announced name change. But it's essential for trans people, less urgent for others. Skyerise (talk) 03:08, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced that this is an ethical right, and I'm also not sure that it's essential for all trans people. (But then I've met two MTFs who did not change their names at the time of their transitions; perhaps you haven't met any for whom naming was not such an emotional issue.) The fundamental Wikipedia issue doesn't change, though: How much of your time are you WP:VOLUNTEERing to make this happen? Trying to make articles comply with this alleged ethical right could probably occupy you full-time for a year. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:30, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it's not an ethical right. All we have been given thus far is anecdotal evidence. The MOS guideline is IMO quite shoddy, and appears to have been written by a small subgroup of editors. I fear any proposed change to bring it in line with what modern sources use will see fierce filibustering. The dubious claims being made by Skyrise indicated we have a classic Wikipedia COI problem.69.143.188.200 (talk) 07:11, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would go with (2) Say Jenner was born in New Jersey (as is now known). I would add the detail somewhere further down, perhaps in a footnote, that at the time of the event she was thought to have been born elsewhere, if it was at all relevant. Like if the event was supposed to be for New York natives.
It's not a great analogy to the name change case, though, because Caitlyn's birth place never actually changed, but her name did (regardless of whether we believe her gender or identity did). Nonetheless, I'd use the same logic and say Caitlyn was involved in the event, not Bruce, and probably add the detail that at the time she was called Bruce, because of all those historical documents (and memories) that use that name in connection with the event. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 23:23, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is question that has not been addressed: Is the change of birthplace relevant? It's an important question because HOW we deal with noting a correction in someone's birthplace would depend on whether the birthplace is important information or not. We have to ask... Is being a New Yorker or a New Jersey-ite directly connected to what makes the person notable? Certainly, if the person is notable for being a New Yorker (for example: if the person wrote a book that goes on and on about how she was "born in New York"), then it would be important to highlight the discovery that while she thought she was born in New York, it turns out that she was (in fact) born in New Jersey. On the other hand, if the birthplace is simply a matter of biographical trivia (background material with no real connection to the person's notability), then there is no reason to even mention the fact that the person thought she was from New York... we can simply amend the article to say New Jersey... and OMIT the fact that the person thought she was from New York.
To tie this back to all the angst and debate over IDENTITY... I think the flaw is in trying to make firm and fast "rules" ... I don't think we can. We have to look at each article individually. How we deal with a change of identity depends a lot on the relevance of the identity change in the context of what makes the person notable. Is the person notable because of the identity change ... that's going to be handled differently than if the person is notable for something else. Also... How we deal with Identity will change, depending on whether the person became notable for something that occurred before the identity change or after the identity change. Blueboar (talk) 21:27, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a valid analogy, since in once instance a correction is being made, and in the other accurate historical information is being changed in order to reflect a current change in status. Onel5969 (talk) 18:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"nowadays" seems archaic and unprofessional
This word is used in several articles I've looked at in the recent past, and every time I encounter it, it bothers me. Is a style edit to substitute this word with something less casual? An example usage is @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holography#Overview_and_history in the 8th paragraph: "In its early days, holography required high-power expensive lasers, but nowadays, mass-produced low-cost semi-conductor or diode lasers...". The 'but' also seems too informal/casual for an encyclopedia.
A more specific timeline would, I think, be best. When one is not available, ending the historic sentence and starting a new one with some variation of "More recently," seems to be less jarring. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.161.127.120 (talk) 21:07, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Such sentences are also easily out of date, so it would be better to say "since the 2010's ..." or something related to a date, rather than the time the writer writes it. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:23, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with the original poster that "nowadays", albeit a fine word in and of itself, is slightly chatty-sounding for encyclopedic writing. The first hit for your search, for example, is a first-person narrative. I make no representations about its "quality", but I do say that its tone is not really appropriate for an encyclopedia. Encyclopedic writing is very nearly the highest register the English language has, higher than academic journals, maybe second only to diplomatic communications.
That said, I don't think this is a policy question. 69.161.127.120, I recommend that you bring the issue up on the talk pages of the articles in question. --Trovatore (talk) 00:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like "nowadays" in Wikipedia. I can't think of a case where it is the best way to say something and I would reword any sentence I came across that contains "nowadays". I don't get the "archaic" angle, though. I just see informal. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 03:36, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
RFC on "Should Sister Project links be included in Navboxes when they are appropriately within scope of the navboxes topic?"
When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.
I hereby submit a proposal to be reviewed by the community. The proposal is as follows: the essay titled Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, commonly known as WP:BRD, should be elevated to the level of a Wikipedia guideline. The reasons for this proposal are simple. The essay in question has attained a level of currency across Wikipedia that punches above the weight of an "essay". It is commonly cited by administrators during the course of their duties to halt edit warring. It is the most apt tool that we have to encourage discussion. It is clearly an example of a Wikipedia "best practice", which is how guidelines are defined by the policy on such matters. As such, it has proven that it is worthy of guideline status. RGloucester — ☎ 00:55, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support: BRD elevated to guideline
Support ::"Don't edit war" is ambiguous and vague, and differing opinions about the correct way not to edit war result in unnecessary friction and conflict. Most users will follow a process that is simple and clear, if it has community consensus. I've found that things go smooth as butter when all present agree to follow BRD. The minute someone shows up and says, I don't have to do that, it's only essay, things turn to shit in a hurry. Something about that tells me BRD is a good thing for Wikipedia. Can BRD be abused? Of course it can, anything we did could be abused. Fault the abuser, not the process. Should we can WP:IAR because it's routinely misused out of ignorance or abused in bad faith? No, because it's a net positive. The same applies here. I don't care much about all the ivory tower intellectual objections to BRD, generously sprinkled with WP:CRYSTAL, I'm a practical guy and I'm only interested in what I've found to work in real-world Wikipedia editing. ―Mandruss☎ 01:44, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Have you noted how most people who invoke BRD do it in violation of BRD, often with the same person reverting the article to its initial state three or four times, or reverting with the only reason being "let's discuss the change first"? (which BRD lists as an invalid reason) There's nothing simple in the procedure, and turning it into a guideline would only create a weapon for those who like to WP:OWN articles to wikilawyer. Conversely, the good faith editors who know how to make the best of BRD don't need it to have any legal weight, nor to force others to follow it; BRD only works well in such cases because it's optional. Make it mandatory and it will kill all the goodwill that it requires to be successful. Diego (talk) 18:16, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support - I'm fairly ambivalent on this one. While I see the points of the first two oppose votes below, BRD is widely accepted and often treated as a guideline when discussing behavioral evidence on ANI and other forums. WP:PG states that guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. The specific contexts makes me think that WhatamIdoing's concerns are partially addressed. We have other guidelines (e.g., WP:BOLD, WP:POINT, that are similar and I see no major problem to adding this one to the bunch. Just to add, seeing the list of reasons against in past discussion, adding this as a guideline would not negate other guidelines like WP:OWN. I can concerns about status quo though. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 02:04, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't seen WP:OWN enforced in the last seven years; no matter how painful the truth, I'm afraid it's a dead policy. Can you explain what benefit we would get by forcing editors to always follow the next step in the cycle? And how would you assess whether starting a new cycle with a BOLD edit after discussion does comply with the guideline or is disruptive? Diego (talk) 18:26, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support as proposer – I also endorse the fine words of Mandruss. RGloucester — ☎ 02:10, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support For the simple reason that it already is a de facto guideline. I've read the opposes and find them unconvincing. As a guideline it is still not a policy, just a ... wait for it... guideline. It applies in most cases but is not a hard and fast rule to be enforced on people. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I am in agreement with Beeblebrox's reasoning. Gmcbjames (talk) 06:54, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: BRD elevated to guideline
Oppose, per my rationales seen at Wikipedia talk:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle/Archive 3#There is no such thing as a consensus version?. Making WP:BRD into a guideline or a policy would be like imposing WP:1RR (the one-revert rule) on articles and would cause more problems than it solves. For example, WP:Fringe content being added to a medical article and staying in the article until discussion settles the matter (after all, if a person finds WP:Fringe content in an article, is bold and removes it, and then an opposer comes along and restores it, that's a problem). Flyer22 (talk) 01:15, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I alerted the talk pages of WP:Policies and guidelines and WP:Edit warring to this matter, as seen here and here. The talk page of WP:BRD was already alerted. And with as many people participating in the Caitlyn Jenner/Bruce Jenner matter above, there might be no need for me to go around alerting a bunch of WP:WikiProjects like I did in the case of a WP:Lead discussion. By that, I mean that it's likely that editors voting on the Caitlyn Jenner/Bruce Jenner matter will also vote on this case. Flyer22 (talk) 01:49, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Another note: When alerting the pages that I did for this latest WP:RfC, I initially messed up the linking. Flyer22 (talk) 21:49, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A guideline should be something that (a) anyone can successfully follow and (b) is generally applicable. BRD, by contrast, directly says that this is a good practice for only some editors and some situations: "BRD is best used by experienced Wikipedia editors. It may require more diplomacy and skill to use successfully than other methods, and have more potential for failure. Using BRD in volatile situations is discouraged."WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:38, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. WP:TALKDONTREVERT is enough. Consensus can be established without WP:BRD, and forcing editors to use WP:BRD will just create more problems (aspersions, unnecessary arguments and what not). Esquivaliencet 02:33, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. In a perfect world it would be a great idea. But BRD is regularly abused now, it'd be a real clusterf*ck if it were to be given more weight. Skyerise (talk) 03:23, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as impractical and a magnet for battleground. BRD may very well be the most misunderstood and controversial instruction set at the Wikipedia space. Half editors believe it to be a call for making bold edits any time debate becomes stalled in a gridlock, the other half swear that it's a reason to never ever touch the article again until talk pages have been crammed with every possible argument and counter-argument, and avoid edits unless everyone involved has endorsed even the smallest change. If we can't even agree to what it means, how can it become official? We'd have to rewrite it word by word before turning any part of it into a guideline, and by then all consensus would have evaporated. Diego (talk) 18:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WhatamIdoing, Flyer22, and Diego Moya. The appropriate means to resolve issues over disputed content depends on the particulars, and trying to shoehorn everything into a singe process simply doesn't work. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:37, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Sorry RG, the sound of a 1RR on every article doesn't bode well. It sounds like a good idea as BRD is used a-lot but in it's current wording wont make a good guideline. I suggest you look into BRD's wording and seek consensus to adapt it for a case by case basis. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:06, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I agree with Diego. In addition, I find BRD to be far, far too long. The core idea could easily be expressed in two paragraphs. Instead, it is needlessly overlong. Neutralitytalk 22:25, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - too vague and hard to follow. It's widely invoked because people perceive it as being so many things. It calls itself optional. Isn't an optional guideline an essay? Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 22:34, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I will take what Diego Moya said. I encounter editors who have no idea of even the correctly applied concept of BRD. This does not need to be escalated to carry greater weight of repercussions and punishment. Fylbecatuloustalk 16:35, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I consider that we rely excessively on BRD, and that it is in many cases a direct invitation to unnecessary and undesirable conflict. DGG ( talk ) 22:20, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is already what it should be, an oft-cited method of editing that works well in certain situations. Attempting to make it imperative will fail horribly. VQuakr (talk) 03:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
BRD is excellent advice and guidance, but not all that good in terms of being "the rules". Unfortunately, too many editors think that "guideline status" equates to "the rules". Blueboar (talk) 12:05, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion (BRD)
What effects, if any, would this proposal have on the encyclopedia? Winner 42Talk to me! 00:57, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It would enshrine WP:BRD as a "best practice", encouraging editors to take a more discursive approach to controversial topics. RGloucester — ☎ 01:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's one possibility, I suppose. BRD doesn't limit itself to controversial topics, however, so the best case scenario is that editors will waste a lot of time taking a more discursive approach to everything. IMO, another, and unfortunately more likely, possibility, is that more editors will go around saying that if you're reverted (by anyone, for any reason), that it's your duty to drop everything and go "discuss" with WP:Randy in Boise what the professional literature says about this subject, and why academic sources are preferable for those subjects, and that if you respond to reverting with either a reasonable revert or with another bold effort, then you are a dangerous editor who probably needs to be blocked for edit warring. TLDR: If we're going to set up a WP:0RR rule for bold editors, then let's be honest about what we're doing. Also, if this becomes a guideline, we're going to see an increase in reverters demanding that bold editors go start a discussion (because BRD puts the burden of starting a discussion on the bold editor, right? No, no, don't go read it or anything; you might discover that it doesn't actually say that), and insisting that BRD enshrines their right to revert anything and everything at least once, including edits they personally believe improves the page (an endemic problem at policy pages: "I agree, but I'm reverting this tiny change because you didn't say Mother, May I? on the talk page first"). Basically, I think that BRD is a good idea for editors who are both experienced and have a certain degree of personal maturity, for disputes involving a small number of thoughtful people. Some editors aren't capable of it (they have other options, like learning WP:How to lose or deciding to WP:Let it go, or going through formal dispute resolution), and other times it's not the best choice. In short, it's good for people who can choose to voluntarily apply it to an appropriate situation, and to refuse to apply it in others. It's not good for everyone or every edit. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:20, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Guidelines, by definition in the Wikipedia policy on such classifications, are applied in appropriate situations. They are merely examples of best practice, and are not a dogma to adhere to with fervour. This proposal is not to elevate BRD to "policy" status, but to "guideline status. Please revise your remarks in accordance with the proposal as it was made, not with some imaginary proposal to make BRD a policy. RGloucester — ☎ 02:48, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Theory, please meet Data.
"Mere guidelines" like WP:FRINGE and WP:MEDRS are enforced with a zeal much greater than some of our core policies (especially WP:IAR). Some essays even get cited as reasons for blocking editors. Everything, even policies, ought to be applied only in appropriate situations, but the fact remains that we have a sizable group of active editors who believe that every single "rule" must be complied with at all times, and that their POV is the only one that matters. You can see a perfectly reasonable, good-faith example of this around electronic cigarettes: is that a "health-related" article, and so WP:MEDMOS's suggested article structure applies, or is that a "manufactured consumer good" article, and so it doesn't? This community is slowly calcifying in its approach. There is a "right way" to do everything, and everyone must conform. This proposal—that a particular style of handling everyday editing disputes be elevated above all other styles—is actually an example of that systemic problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:51, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I feel that with "a more discursive approach to controversial topics" RGloucester misunderstands much of the intent of BRD, which is to encourage a new bold edit in response to unfocused discussion, to provide an exit to talkfests and filibusters. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:42, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the opposers seem to be of the opinion that this would make a 1RR rule apply to all articles. That's a red herring/strawman argument that is just plain wrong. 3RR is a policy. If you break it, you are probably going to get blocked. You can't "break" a guideline, all you can do is choose to ignore it. If there are users or admins out there (and there most certainly are) that apply essays and guidelines as if they were rules or policies, that is a problem with those users, not with the guidelines and esays themselves, and not promoting this to a guideline isn't going to fix that problem. (I would actually support BRD being a policy for other policy pages only as nobody should just be changing policy on a whim, and if they are reverted they should obviously seek consensus for their changes, but that's another discussion for another day) Beeblebrox (talk) 21:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Beeblebrox, as noted at WP:Policies and guidelines, guidelines are rules and editors should attempt to follow them. Do I always follow every guideline? No. There is a valid WP:Ignore all rules reason for some cases, but an editor should not be waving the WP:Ignore all rules policy around often as if that gives the editor a reason to ignore a guideline in every case. Guidelines are guidelines because they have generally been found to be best practices; there should be a valid reason for forgoing them; WP:IDON'TLIKEIT reasons are generally not what I call valid. Flyer22 (talk) 22:07, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The difference between a policy and a guideline is not about blocking. People get blocked every day for "breaking" the guideline about WP:External links. And how many community bans have we seen for WP:IDHT, also a guideline? But when was the last time you saw someone blocked for "breaking" the WP:Editing policy? That policy gets violated every hour of the day, especially the WP:PRESERVE section, but almost no one gets blocked over it. I'm not sure that it's even possible to "break" WP:POLICY or WP:IAR. But people get blocked for "breaking" the mere essay on WP:Tendentious editing.
I believe that the actual goal here is to impose something like 1RR on articles (rather than on people): to stop edit warring by declaring that if you are reverted, your only acceptable course of action is to start a discussion. No more reverting the reverter (even if the reversion is clearly a mistake, clearly anti-policy, etc.) and no more trying a different, bold change: If I revert you, then you must start a discussion (or stop editing the article). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion break 1 (BRD)
ESSAY
An editor should not need to have a 130 I.Q. and three years of experience to know how to edit without edit warring. I don't know, but my guess is that most or all opposers of this promotion fit that description, and they are unconsciously assuming that most editors are like them. Not so, probably not even a majority, and therein lies the disagreement in this proposal. Guys, it may seem simple and clear-cut to you, with all your experience, but it's not. I've said it before in a different context: Wikipedia has become designed by the experienced, for the experienced, and we wonder why we can't keep new editors — and I got a bit of experienced support for that statement. I'm here as a representative, possibly the only representative present in this discussion, of Average Editors.
(I don't mean to imply that other supporters have an I.Q. under 130 or less than three years of experience. Don't overthink.)
Somehow, the wisdom of the elders needs to be translated into a somewhat simple process, a road map, for the rest of us. We don't need to know why, only how. Vast amounts of time are wasted arguing about who has the responsibility to start the talk thread, for example, and that could be avoided if a guideline process simply clarified that question. If it's true that one size can't fit all, or if it's true that any such guideline would be a net negative — and I'm not convinced of either — then we need to accept the fact that we will never be rid of widespread edit warring, that Wikipedia will forever be an acrimonious and chaotic battleground environment. Those are the two choices as I see it. ―Mandruss☎ 17:38, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Alternative - rather than promote BRD itself to guideline status, I would do a better job of explaining the BRD concept (and when to use it) at WP:CONSENSUS.
If we do promote it, it will need some explanation of when not to use it. There are times when the BRD cycle is unnecessary... and times when it is. For example, BRD is not really necessary in brand new articles... as an article starts and grows, it is likely to change rapidly as editors add new bits of information, and freely rewrite sections with existing bits of information. These articles work best on an "Bold, revert, less bold, repeat" cycle. The discussion part of BRD isn't always necessary. A stricter BRD cycle works better for articles that have been around a while and are more stable. In such cases, it is fine to be bold, but if someone reverts it is usually best to the article and ask why the revert was made. For some articles (and especially our core policy pages) every paragraph, sentence and phrase has been discussed and discussed yet again... and we have reached the point that Bold edits are almost guaranteed to upset long standing consensus. The Revert part of BRD can be assumed if you attempt to make a bold edit... and so "Discuss first" is best. Blueboar (talk) 22:24, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Let's ignore everything outside of mainspace for this discussion; relative to the entire editing population, I doubt many editors know they are allowed to update policy and guideline, feel competent to do so, and want to do so. Within mainspace, based on your comments, would it be at all feasible to produce, say, three different "editing models", with a road map for each? If that could be done, then the main area of process-related conflict would be which model to use at a given time on a given article, and any model changeswitch could be decided by local consensus. One of the models could be pre-designated for use with the more stable articles, which would avoid a problem when there aren't enough people around to form a consensus. It could be designed to work for a two-editor situation (a one-editor situation doesn't need a process because an edit war requires at least two). Perhaps three sizes could fit all? ―Mandruss☎ 23:15, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This shows a possible decision-making path for editors on Wikipedia.
Thank you for keeping the less-experienced editors in mind. It's easy to lose sight of that perspective.
There are probably a dozen alternatives (some of which are listed at WP:BRD#Alternatives), but if you exclude anything that smacks of edit warring, then the basic categories might be these:
with the editor that reverted your bold change (BRD is focused on talking to one or two objectors, not everyone)
with everyone/via formal dispute resolution processes
Bold, revert, try again (trying something else, maybe a less ambitious edit, not re-reverting)
Bold, revert, give up (or move on to another article: an ideal approach for cleaning up {{linkfarm}} problems)
Moderate edits (e.g., deliberately change one paragraph or other small piece a week until you're done)
Usual options of discussing, re-attempting, and giving up if you're reverted, but reversions are less likely
Discuss first (aka "timid" editing; wide range of options in this category)
Well, that looks like six. Probably other editors would produce different lists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
At over 14,000 edits, I don't understand a third of the above, or how I would use it in practice. Am I atypically stupid, or atypically lazy? Even if I understood it, that would be worthless unless most of the others present understood it, too; a majority agreement as to process is needed. Seriously, how are editors expected to stick it out long enough to understand all that? With road maps, we don't need to understand it; we just follow the instructions. We can drive our cars without being experts in auto mechanics, but only because automakers figured out how to isolate us from all that and "dumb down" cars. Thank you for keeping the less-experienced editors in mind. It's easy to lose sight of that perspective. - sounds a bit like we're talking about a small minority that's easy to forget. Are we? My perception is that perhaps 10% of active editors are at a level capable of understanding the above, or anything close to it. Again, unless the majority present are in that 10%, their knowledge can't have any beneficial effect. ―Mandruss☎ 05:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I've added a flowchart. To keep it on one page, I've simplified some of the options, but it's the general idea. Maybe that will make more sense than the rather jargon-y list.
IMO you don't need to know any of this to edit. You just need to click the 'Edit' button and have a go. You can figure out each step individually, as you go along, without any sort of roadmap. Just trying something out is how most of us get to the point of being able to identify all the different options. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Do we have statistics on number of active editors by edit count? Like a graph? ―Mandruss☎ 11:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, although I don't know where; however, it looks enough like this as to make no particular difference. Or, to put it another way, in the history of Wikipedia, there have been 25,369,760 accounts created, and your contributions put you in the top 0.02% for number of edits ever. If you ranked there in terms of American income, you would not only have been "a one percenter", but your income would have have ranked in the top 10% of American millionaires (using the definition of a millionaire as someone who earned at least a million US dollars last year, not those with lower incomes who have saved a total of $1M or more). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My sole objective is to achieve a dramatic reduction in edit warring. It is abundantly clear that the status quo is not working, and yet, most experienced editors say that no change is warranted. I can't get my head around that; if it's not working, a change is warranted, full stop. That would seem to be the first step on a path toward a solution. We are not going to repeal human nature any time soon, so it's not realistic to simply say that the required change is within us. ―Mandruss☎ 09:28, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that everyone would like to see less edit warring. Speaking for myself, requiring BRD is neither a practical nor an effective way to build a good encyclopedia, and its effect on the more severe forms of edit will probably be zero. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This particular subsection is not about requiring BRD, so your comment seems out of context. (My comments here are tangential to the RfC, I have asked the RfC's author whether they think I should split it out into a separate discussion, and I haven't yet received a response. I'm open to other opinions about that as well. But I see other "alternative" discussion here, too.) And I'm still interested in some response to my previous comment, from anyone. ―Mandruss☎ 18:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support making Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle a redirect to Wikipedia:Consensus#Reaching consensus through editing. The current WP:BRD essay rather muddies the waters than "supplement the Wikipedia:Consensus" policy. It causes more trouble than it solves, a sort of overcomplicated alternative ruleset to what is actually policy. Typically WP:BRD is invoked when a revert/discussion cycle has gone apeshit, and all parties contend that they were faithful to the essay, so "doing nothing wrong". Whether or not they adhered to the policy in the matter WP:EDITCONSENSUS and subsequent sections at WP:CONSENSUS seems not to bother them, as long as they can make themselves appear immaculate in the light of WP:BRD. And then indeed that essay is so complicated that anyone can defend almost any edit with it, using the sort of counterproductive "I did – no you didn't" back and forth as a replacement for consensus-seeking. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:11, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Very hesitant about this. This proposal means making BRD "policy". Kneejerk reaction is a big NO, it means throwing away nearly all the documentation on BRD, and risking future editors believing that they "MUST" BRD. In fact, BRD is an advanced high speed method for fixing/building content, and the BRD rules, as they, are mark the boundary between bare minimum consultation and edit warring. However, there might be something serious to this idea. If the wording about BRD was correct, and was placed in the policy, it may give BRD a better grounding, and the essay page could remain to discuss DRB more lengthily. There is a problem that BRD is pseudo-policy, and that the essay is not written as policy. I'm pretty sure I will object to converting the essay to a redirect, but this is a very new and interesting idea. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Re. "this is a very new ... idea": [11] – even then I don't claim to have invented the idea, I'm sure I read it many years ago already (around the time when File:Consensus Flowchart.svg was introduced at WP:CONSENSUS?) when it was decided to give WP:BRD the benefit of the doubt.
Re. "BRD is an advanced high speed method for fixing/building content" – I challenge that summary: true, it is "advanced" in the sense that WP:BRD's File:BRD1.svg has more steps and complications than WP:EDITCONSENSUS's File:Consensus Flowchart.svg, but that can hardly be seen as increasing speed.
There's no kneejerk in this: WP:BRD has had its chances for many, many years. It hasn't worked out. Now we can feel sorry for ourselves having let it absorb so much energy over the years. If I had foreseen this around the time when WP:EDITCONSENSUS was adjusted to the practical "high speed method for fixing/building content" it is now, sure, I had been more insistent to make WP:BRD a redirect then. I don't intend to lose further time with self-pity though. The practical guidance on the matter is policy, no need for the somewhat more bloated version that doesn't seem to really know where it is going. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather re-write BRD to return it to something close to its original (which was advice for experienced, clueful editors who were trying to jolt unproductive discussions out of their ruts by giving an example of what could be done and working through the objections one at a time). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Naw. Effective deletion of the essay and redirection of the many, many links to WP:BRD to a different target would be unhelpful. VQuakr (talk) 04:04, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Accessibility dispute on Template:ISO 15924 script codes and Unicode
Do you consider that good or bad and what do you propose would be the correct behavior? Thisisnotatest (talk) 20:54, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, it is and should be up to the bot operator. If she wants to keep bot messages on a separate page and is willing to monitor both, that's fine. If she wants to only have to monitor one page, that's fine as well. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It also depends upon how many people are significantly involved in the bot's operation. If you have two or three maintainers (only one of whom is "the operator"), then a separate page might be the right answer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: In at least one country where English is the most widely used language, requiring English, or mandating English is a politically fraught topic (see English First). Also in en.Wikipedia, it seems. Better to ease along with what has worked for 5,000,000 articles. — Neonorange (talk) 02:22, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Done ―Mandruss ☎ 07:59, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Loved that (though maybe that's what Guy intended). Epic Genius (talk) 02:52, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
