Talk:Chelsea Manning: Difference between revisions
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:Other than a preferential name change, Manning has taken no steps to change identity. The name Bradley will remain with him as will his gender throughought his incarceration in an all-male facility. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 02:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC) |
:Other than a preferential name change, Manning has taken no steps to change identity. The name Bradley will remain with him as will his gender throughought his incarceration in an all-male facility. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 02:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC) |
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::A formerly all-male facility. ~ [[User:Robin Lionheart|Röbin Liönheart]] ([[User talk:Robin Lionheart|talk]]) 00:27, 28 August 2013 (UTC) |
::A formerly all-male facility. ~ [[User:Robin Lionheart|Röbin Liönheart]] ([[User talk:Robin Lionheart|talk]]) 00:27, 28 August 2013 (UTC) |
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:Apparently the liberal thing to do these days is to pretend that we don't know this person has a penis. [[User:Theofficeprankster|Theofficeprankster]] ([[User talk:Theofficeprankster|talk]]) 11:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC) |
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====Bigotry, Knowing and Otherwise==== |
====Bigotry, Knowing and Otherwise==== |
Revision as of 11:16, 28 August 2013
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![]() | Note: A discussion what title this article should have is being held at Talk:Chelsea_Manning#Requested move. |
Q1: Why is this article titled Chelsea Manning?
A majority of sources now use the name "Chelsea" when referring to Manning which would make it the common name. There has been consensus among editors since October 2013 that this name should be used.
Q2: Why does the article refer to Manning as she?
MOS:IDENTITY says: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example 'man/woman', 'waiter/waitress', 'chairman/chairwoman') that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. [...] Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and ' [sic]' may be used where necessary)." Q3: Why is Manning in transgender categories?
The fact that Manning is transgender, and was a transgender inmate, a transgender soldier, etc, is notable and defining and has been discussed in multiple reliable sources (which are cited in the article). See Wikipedia:FAQ/Categorization for more information. Q4: I feel that Wikipedia is being biased against (or towards) my beliefs here, what should I do?
Wikipedia policy mandates that articles reflect the content of reliable sources and be written from a neutral point of view, avoiding advocating for any particular perspective. Minority ideas and opinions must not be given undue weight or promotion in Wikipedia articles. It is impossible for coverage of real-world controversies to leave everyone happy – ideas change and adapt over time, and partisan viewpoints are typically entrenched and unable to self-assess bias – but seeking and maintaining neutrality is an ongoing process. Concerns over bias can be addressed with bold editing following the WP:BRD cycle or by starting a civil and constructive discussion at this talk page to suggest article improvements. Q5: Why does Wikipedia include Chelsea Manning's deadname?
Wikipedia's guidelines say that we should include the birth name for a living transgender person in the lead sentence only if the person was notable under that name. This is the case for Chelsea Manning. By doing this, we ensure people who have only heard of Manning as her deadname can still find and recognize the article. |
Requested move
![]() | It has been proposed in this section that Chelsea Manning be renamed and moved to Bradley Manning. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. |
Chelsea Manning → Bradley Manning – I am requesting that this page be moved back to its previous title of Bradley Manning so a thorough discussion can take place.
Wikipedia:Requested moves makes it clear that the "Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves" process should be used in the following circumstance:
- "Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested."
Additionally, Wikipedia:Article titles states the following:
- "Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made."
MOS:IDENTITY also states that a person should be referred to using his or her preferred name only when there is no dispute:
- "When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself [...]"
Note that my move request is not a comment on what the page should eventually be called (I personally believe Chelsea is the proper title), but rather a recognition of the short-term term need to follow policy.
My move request is also not a suggestion of which pronoun should be used. MOS:IDENTITY makes it clear that in this case we should use the "she" pronoun. Pronouns are a separate issue from the page title. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Administrative notes
- Administrative note: Since I have no interest in the outcome of this discussion, I have volunteered to shepherd it for the duration, and serve on a three-administrator panel that will close it after seven days (or after any extension of time beyond that sought by the community). I am going to umpire, and make sure things stay civil and the discussion stays on topic. That said, please do try to keep things civil and on topic. Cheers! bd2412 T 21:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I see that someone tried to edit the bot's page to force a link to the section title. There is a deficiency in the bot's regex pattern matching, in that it doesn't find the section title when text is entered above the RM template. I'm trying to fix that, but as a stopgap, I'm moving this text below the template. – Wbm1058 (talk) 19:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC) (bot operator)
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However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:spa|username}} ; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}} ; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}} . |
Survey
- Today is 6 September 2024 (UTC); new comments belong to today's section on basis of Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). Replies are still welcome in collapsed sections.
22 August 2013 (UTC)
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Consider a compromise; qualify the person as their original sex chronologically up to the point at which they assume/come out in a new gender role. The person was a male/female up until that point as a matter of fact.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.98.4.11 (talk • contribs)
1) Manning has not yet undergone gender reassignment (he is still male, and I have read and heard somewhere that reassignment therapy isn't available in army facilities) 2) He does not wish to be known as Chelsea in everything he does - as part of the statement he issued, it clearly states: "I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)." (my emphasis). This means that Manning is still male, and until he undergoes full reassignment therapy, and agrees to be referred to as a female IN EVERYTHING he does or pertaining to him, I think the renaming of the article to "Chelsea Manning" was unnecessary. --The Historian (talk) 20:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.178.34.11 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC) |
23 August 2013 (UTC)
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24 August 2013 (UTC)
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25 August 2013 (UTC)
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26 August 2013 (UTC)
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27 August 2013 (UTC)
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28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. Just noticed this discussion is due to be closed soon and I hadn't commented yet. For me, MOS:IDENTITY should trump WP:COMMONNAME in clear cases such as this one. Robofish (talk) 01:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Robofish - Does MOS:IDENTITY say anything about titles of articles? NickCT (talk) 01:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Fair point, not specifically. In that case I'd say it also comes down to a matter of general decency and respect for a living person's wishes. Not meaning to say that those who support the move lack such decency or respect; only that, for me, they're reason enough to go with Manning's preferred name here. Robofish (talk) 02:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Robofish - Does MOS:IDENTITY say anything about titles of articles? NickCT (talk) 01:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose Per MOS:IDENTITY. I think WP:IAR allows for MOS:IDENTITY to trump WP:commonname. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ross Hill (talk • contribs)
- As has been said at least a dozen times, because this is a name change move MOS:IDENTITY does not apply. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- As has also been said a dozen times, MOS:IDENTITY talks about "gendered nouns," and it is only a small stretch from there to regarding a chosen name as a form of gendered identification. For example, User:BD2412 makes a similar observation in his sandbox page assessing the situation. So whilst the wording of MOS:ID does not explicitly accommodate titles or given names, it is not nearly as clear cut as "does not apply" makes out. Chris Smowton (talk) 10:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- As has been said at least a dozen times, because this is a name change move MOS:IDENTITY does not apply. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment - I retract my "support" to revert back to Bradley and must say this. I have never seen such a huge ruckus like this before. Move to Bradly, move to Chelsea, re-move to Bradley, re-move to Chelsea, and the list goes on. That aside, this... person made a decision on oneself. Sources use "Bradley", while other sources use "Chelsea". Still, I am on the limbo. No gossip is yet made; she made a decision. Nevertheless, there is not yet an operation or a hormone therapy. WP:BLP doesn't say much about name preferences, but WP:BLPCAT allows adding categories relating to self-identities. WP:AT encourages using "commonly recognizable" names, but both Bradley and Chelsea are recognizable names right now. WP:TITLECHANGES discourages unreasonable moves, but moving to "Chelsea" was reasonable due to this person's recent self-declaration. Nevertheless, this situation led to edit warring, and this discussion is the partial result of edit warring. Also, we unwitfully committed forum shopping, which is strictly discouraged, by discussing this matter everywhere in WT:AT, WP:BLPN, WP:ANI, here, and elsewhere I couldn't know yet. Don't take this the wrong way, but MOS:IDENTITY is nothing more than an editing-related guideline, and it says nothing much about titling an article about a "transgender". Neither WP:verifiability nor WP:neutral point of view says about what to do with this situation. Even Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) does not explain titling an article about a transgender, transsexual, or transvestite. But I must say that WP:policies and guidelines forbids/discourages contradictions among policies and/or guidelines. And that concision should be mininal instead of excessive. And that rules must "be clear"; somehow, rules on articles about transgender or transsexual people are not clear enough in this case.
Here's my opinion: While I do not want him to change into a woman, and while I found the GID diagnosis flawed, I am really now torn on naming matters. --George Ho (talk) 05:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. Manning's wishes, GLAAD guidelines, certainty of eventual change, growing recognition and use in the media. Should be a no-brainer. – Miranche T C 06:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose move to Bradley Manning. In this case WP:BLP, with regards to respecting our subjects by being sensitive to avoid causing them harm, overrides WP:COMMONNAME, even though many reliable sources are changing their references to 'Chelsea' and eventually the common name will likely rest at 'Chelsea'. I'd also like to note that with some of the comparisons where non-transgender people who have changed their name and the article title stayed at the common title we are also dealing with entertainers who use stage names or pen names. This is a rare situation and there really isn't much precedent to go on at Wikipedia. Some of the other comparisons being made are lacking in their scientific understanding of gender and sexuality. Synchronism (talk) 07:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support move back to Bradley. If this was Cat Stevens we wouldn't even be arguing this; pretty much all of this person's activities that were notable were associated with the name Bradley. I also consider it an abuse of the rules to immediately move a page when there is no consensus, and then to require consensus before being able to move it back. Ken Arromdee (talk) 07:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Discussion
Wikipedia's actual clients -- you know, general readers not familiar wp-this and wp-that -- are going to expect to find an article on the name that's been in the news for months. During the notable part of the person's life they were know as Bradley so that's what the article should be titled. NE Ent 01:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's actual clients are going to find this article no matter which title they search on, because the redirect from her former name means they'll still get here anyway. Bearcat (talk) 04:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're right. However it's still interesting to look at what people are searching for: Bradley Manning vs Chelsea Manning Even with the front page ITN linking to Chelsea Manning, people are still using the Bradley search term more often by a significant magnitude. It might be something to look into a bit - perhaps it might represent what the majority still currently believe his name is? Before we make crystal ball predictions on whether this current trend may change, keep in mind that we make decisions based on the present, and not for the future. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 08:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Redirects: Cheap, easy, free. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- The parallel I gave was Sears Tower. Wikipedia wasn't in business when it was renamed, but I doubt it would wait long to title the article according to the new official product placement. I think it is acceptable to retitle the article according to an official new name, even though most people aren't using that yet. Even though I favor using "he" and "Bradley" in descriptions of the earlier events. Wnt (talk) 22:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is probably what you are looking for: [5]. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think you mean this: [6] --Yetisyny (talk) 19:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
MOS:IDENTITY
For all those citing MOS:IDENTITY, that guideline relates to the content of the article not the the title of the article. This discussion is a move discussion. It relates solely to the title of the article, NOT the content of the article. The relevant policy page for this discussion is Wikipedia:Article titles.
I cannot even begin to imagine why people are citing WP:BLP. There are no BLP concerns affecting this discussion from what I can see.
--RA (✍) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The general principle of BLP is that we have to have respect for individuals when we're smearing their names across the internet. I think it's misapplied here since we're confusing the reader to aggressively support the person's decisions, and that goes well beyond the dispassionate but polite concern expected for a Wikipedia article. Even if the policy says nothing specifically, the sense of the policy is correctly applied when being careful about how we talk about living people. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 19:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. I think it's being applied correctly--even if Octamom is the most common name, we don't have an article by that name for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hobit, we have no need to look to BLP. Policy on article titles like Octomom is given in Wikipedia:Article titles (explicitly in that case). A title like "Bradley Manning" is not akin to "Octomom". Yesterday, there was no ambiguity about this person's name - or any sense that it may have carried offence. It was simply "Bradley Manning". Today, they asked to be called something else. We can mention that but we don't have to rename the article because of it. --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. I think it's being applied correctly--even if Octamom is the most common name, we don't have an article by that name for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- *.92, you raise a good point. I find something upsetting in the way the article was so aggressively altered and moved on the back of Manning's statement. It doesn't matter if the article is a little behind the latest tattle. We should be more sensitive before jumping and move with a greater degree of care on BLPs (where there is no urgent need for modification). --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- He is one of more than 6,000,000,000 people, he is just as special as everyone else. If he wanted to change his name to 'Barak Obama' we would not be having this discussion, the page would remain his legal name of Bradley Manning. VictusB (talk) 23:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Define what you mean by "respect". It certainly doesn't, even as a general principle, mean that articles should only contain information that the living person would choose to have in the article. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Referring to a trans woman using male-gendered names and and pronouns, including the title of the article, is deeply offensive and harmful. BLP asks us to consider harm to living subjects. I can think of few things more harmful to a subject than disrespecting their identification on deeply personal characteristics like gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. --Trystan (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Emotional distress on the part of the subject is trumped by Wikipedia's mission to provide information in the easiest way possible to the largest number of people. The vast majority of the sources for the article refer to the subject as Bradley Manning, the vast majority of the pages that link to this article use the name Bradley Manning, and the vast majority of users of Wikipedia who look for this article know the person as Bradley Manning. Given that this is the person's current legal name and is not an inherently derogatory name, Manning's feelings on the matter are not enough to justify changing the name to Chelsea Manning. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is profoundly degrading to transgender persons to refer to them using gender-inappropriate names and pronouns when they have expressed a clear preference to be addressed according to their gender identity. The harm from disrespecting gender identity is profund and can not be reduced to mere hurt feelings.--Trystan (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, it is profoundly disrespectful. I think that brings WP:BLP into this. Hobit (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is profoundly degrading to transgender persons to refer to them using gender-inappropriate names and pronouns when they have expressed a clear preference to be addressed according to their gender identity. The harm from disrespecting gender identity is profund and can not be reduced to mere hurt feelings.--Trystan (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Emotional distress on the part of the subject is trumped by Wikipedia's mission to provide information in the easiest way possible to the largest number of people. The vast majority of the sources for the article refer to the subject as Bradley Manning, the vast majority of the pages that link to this article use the name Bradley Manning, and the vast majority of users of Wikipedia who look for this article know the person as Bradley Manning. Given that this is the person's current legal name and is not an inherently derogatory name, Manning's feelings on the matter are not enough to justify changing the name to Chelsea Manning. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Referring to a trans woman using male-gendered names and and pronouns, including the title of the article, is deeply offensive and harmful. BLP asks us to consider harm to living subjects. I can think of few things more harmful to a subject than disrespecting their identification on deeply personal characteristics like gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. --Trystan (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- One would expect the title of an article to be consistent of its contents. Wikipedia:Article titles also states that the naming guidelines should be used be interpreted in conjunction with other policies Vexorian (talk) 03:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline and not policy, policies outweigh guidelines on wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no policy on Wikipedia which contains anything that would overrule MOS:IDENTITY. And guidelines are just as binding as policies in the absence of a compelling reason to make an exception. In fact, Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is very specific on this point: Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. The only difference between the two is that guidelines may have valid exceptions in some circumstances — but unless there's a clear consensus that the case at hand is a valid exception, guidelines do still have to be followed every bit as much as policies do. Bearcat (talk) 00:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Policies such as WP:NOTABILITRY a core Wikipedia policy (person notable for being Bradley manning) and WP:COMMONNAME Bradley being used more do outweigh it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:N does not require an article to always remain at the title that a topic first became notable under; it just speaks to whether a topic should be included or excluded and has no bearing on what an article's title should or shouldn't be, or whether you can or can't move an article about a topic whose name changes after notability has already been established. And WP:COMMONNAME also explicitly says that there are numerous valid reasons why an article can be located at something other than the topic's "most common name". We title North American radio and television stations' articles with their call signs rather than their on-air brand names, for instance, because even though the on-air brand names are almost certainly more commonly known, they're rarely or never unique. We title most animal and plant species with their scientific (i.e. Latin) names rather than their common ones. We frequently choose alternate titles as a way to avoid spelling disputes between American and British English. And feel free to fill yourself in on how we dealt with the Derry vs. Londonderry and Dokdo vs. Takeshima "common name" disputes, too. COMMONNAME is simply not an invariable rule. So nope, neither of those policies is in conflict with MOS:IDENTITY at all. Bearcat (talk) 01:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Policies such as WP:NOTABILITRY a core Wikipedia policy (person notable for being Bradley manning) and WP:COMMONNAME Bradley being used more do outweigh it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no policy on Wikipedia which contains anything that would overrule MOS:IDENTITY. And guidelines are just as binding as policies in the absence of a compelling reason to make an exception. In fact, Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is very specific on this point: Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. The only difference between the two is that guidelines may have valid exceptions in some circumstances — but unless there's a clear consensus that the case at hand is a valid exception, guidelines do still have to be followed every bit as much as policies do. Bearcat (talk) 00:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline and not policy, policies outweigh guidelines on wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: I just noticed that Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Article titles includes the following phrase:
The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title.
- This would mean that MOS:IDENTITY applies to the article title. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- The MOS does indeed apply to the styling of all parts of the article, including the title. What it doesn't apply to is the substance of the title, that's what the naming policy is for. That being said, I think the more relevant point is that the MOS indisputably requires the article to use only feminine pronouns, and doing so is incongruent with an article title of "Bradley". (I also personally think more generally that there are other reasons, not relating to the MOS specifically, that the article should be under "Chelsea", but that's a different discussion.) AgnosticAphid talk 19:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it can be safely said that there is ten times more input on this particular article than there has EVER been to MOS:IDENTITY. The MOS can be changed; it should not be used as weight in this decision... and I won't even get into the fact that it was crafted by the LGBT wikiproject and obviously reflects their viewpoint. - Floydian τ ¢ 15:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- To defend the MOS from your untoward suggestion – which you did make – that it somehow reflects only the interests of a biased cabal, I'd like to point out that every style manual that I've seen, if not every style guide that addresses the use of pronouns for transgender individuals, requires the use of a pronoun corresponding with the subject's chosen identity. The MOS is based on other style guides, not the whims of editors as informed by their views on matters of identity politics. You should go to the MOS talk page if you want to change the MOS. Until it does change, this article must use feminine pronouns and the extent to which that requirement affects the choice of title is a legitimate question. AgnosticAphid talk 15:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- But surely that would be the cart driving the horse. The pronoun question is separate to the article name question, and there is no reason to suppose that one is more important than the other - though it's the latter that's receiving all the attention right now. I agree with the OP on this thread - MOS:IDENTITY does not answer the article title question. There's no reason why we can't call the article "Bradley Manning" and then have "she" throughout. Having said that, though, I think the article name implies a change of the lead, as well as a change of the infobox heading. StAnselm (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- By the way, some baby name websites (e.g. [7]) list Bradley was both a boys' and girls' name. I can't find any notable women of this name, though I found this discussion forum which shows that some girls do have the name. So, Manning could have come out as a woman and kept the name Bradley. Now, it may be significant that she chose not to. I wonder if all transgender people like to change their name when they come out? I asked the question at Talk:Transgender#Names? but I haven't got an answer. 05:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- But surely that would be the cart driving the horse. The pronoun question is separate to the article name question, and there is no reason to suppose that one is more important than the other - though it's the latter that's receiving all the attention right now. I agree with the OP on this thread - MOS:IDENTITY does not answer the article title question. There's no reason why we can't call the article "Bradley Manning" and then have "she" throughout. Having said that, though, I think the article name implies a change of the lead, as well as a change of the infobox heading. StAnselm (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the close
Just noting here that I've asked on WP:AN/RFC [8] and WP:AN/I [9] for an admin to close this who has had no prior involvement with the page. Hopefully that will make the close as uncontentious as possible. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Gender identity
Is Bradley legally a female or male? In the article United States v. Manning Bradley prefers to be known as a female, Chelsea Manning, so it seems Bradley is a male, but like to be refered to as a female, so should we refer to Bradley as a male of female in this and the United States v. Manning? Casey.Grim85 (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Bradley's legal status is actually irrelevant. The style guide states Wikipedia should refer to Manning using female pronouns. —me_and 17:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- To be clear, there is debate as to what "The style guide" says, and how it applies, you should go read the debate yourself if you are truly interested. Many people are arguing that MOS:IDENTITY dosn't really apply in this case. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Okay I was just wondering it all! Casey.Grim85 18:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is it logical to refer to a person who is currently biologically male as "she", regardless of how they perceive themselves? Would this same rule apply to transvestites, who are generally referred to using the pronoun "he"? I think it would make more sense to use the term "he" until the time that he actually undergoes surgical procedures to make him a female; only after that point will it make sense to use the term "she". (Cf. Wendy Carlos, one of the more famous examples of gender-reassigned persons.) Otherwise, it's just confusing to the average reader at present. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes. There are plenty of trans-women who still have male sexual organs, but consider themselves "women". Gender != biology. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, there is no single identifier that makes a "biological female". Whatever identifier you use will exclude many women and include many men (and the opposite for "biological male"). Biology is not perfect. --Dee Earley (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is it logical to refer to a person who is currently biologically male as "she", regardless of how they perceive themselves? Would this same rule apply to transvestites, who are generally referred to using the pronoun "he"? I think it would make more sense to use the term "he" until the time that he actually undergoes surgical procedures to make him a female; only after that point will it make sense to use the term "she". (Cf. Wendy Carlos, one of the more famous examples of gender-reassigned persons.) Otherwise, it's just confusing to the average reader at present. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- He will serve his sentence in United States Disciplinary Barracks, which is a male prison. So in the eyes of the law he is definitely a man. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not the United States, and we don't have to describe people only in terms of their relation to US law. A trans person does not detransition just because they move to a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision for transition. Legal recognition, like surgery, is typically quite a late stage of transition. One must typically identify and live as one's chosen gender for some time before either becomes available. And let's not lose sight of the fact that Manning's access to female socialization, and to HRT, are artificially restricted by her status as a US federal prisoner. She's done about the only thing she currently can to signal to the world that this is her identity. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't believe Wikipedia would dissolve a gay marriage just because the couple moved to "a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision" but I believe there would still be the expectation that if there was a gay marriage then there had to have been a prior legally recognized marriage SOMEWHERE. If Manning is legally recognized as female in Canada that would likely satisfy most people currently objecting. I believe you are confusing is and ought with respect to Manning's confinement. Whatever ought to be the case, if it IS the case that there not only is not but cannot be any legal recognition this is relevant to whether the dispute between the subject and his society as to how he or she should be perceived should be resolved in the favour of the subject.--Brian Dell (talk) 10:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- The fact of imprisonment in that institution doesn't really prove anything. You can picture that women could be put there at any time due to overcrowding or through some bureaucratic snafu. And what is transsexuality more than the world's most confusing bureaucratic snafu? Wnt (talk) 22:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning's gender is female. She has clearly stated this. Her biological sex does not reflect her gender, but that does not change the fact that her gender is female. The pronouns we use should reflect gender, not sex; so yes, it does make sense to refer to Manning as "she". 86.16.146.123 (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning is male. He might decide that he "identifies with" a oblique Vulcan transhuman tomale, but that doesn't make it true. Kotowing to the latest politically correct fad impresses very few and does little for wikipedias already shaky credibility.
- And throwing in your biased opinion without even signing your name does absolutely nothing for your credibility whatsoever. As such, we're quite in our rights to ignore your post completely until you learn how to use the signature. Like so: Blackbird_4 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Would any female allow Manning to use the women’s locker room at the local swimming pool, fitness centre, or public toilet? I doubt any typical female would be comfortable sharing facilities with Manning, would they? If females don’t accept Manning as female, then the name change is absurd. If women don't accept Manning as female nor let "her" use/share their facilities, then end of story. --BrianJ34 (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Um, no. That's not how gender identity works. California just passed a law allowing transgender children to choose which restroom they use in public schools. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah I think my young brother switched his gender a few times... then he grew up. What a stupid premise. "I'm a girl today. Tomorrow I'm gonna be a dinosaur."
- Um, no. That's not how gender identity works. California just passed a law allowing transgender children to choose which restroom they use in public schools. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Would any female allow Manning to use the women’s locker room at the local swimming pool, fitness centre, or public toilet? I doubt any typical female would be comfortable sharing facilities with Manning, would they? If females don’t accept Manning as female, then the name change is absurd. If women don't accept Manning as female nor let "her" use/share their facilities, then end of story. --BrianJ34 (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
So, I can just choose my gender by making a public statement? "Hey everybody, I'm female today!" What if Manning decided to issue a public statement every day at sunrise, toggling his gender each time. Would we have to retitle the article and change all the pronouns on a daily basis? It seems to me that determining someone's gender by asking them is not terribly scientific. Let's put the question this way: If we got a panel of physicians or biologists to examine Manning, would they conclude that he is male or female? ‑Scottywong| spout _ 14:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think they'd decline the request as stupid. Formerip (talk) 14:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- As and when Manning does toggle her gender in that way we can have that discussion; at the moment I don't think we need to consider that. FormerIP, there have been numerous levelheaded requests for people to keep hold of their emotions even in face of a flood of repetitive contributions, and those requesters are right - would you mind avoiding describing people's contributions as "stupid", and give detail as to why? 7daysahead (talk) 10:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is a basic difference in philosophy. There are some people who think that they shouldn't examine hypothetical cases until they're proven to exist, but when I raised this idea my thought was that whether or not it happens, our reaction to it is a useful test of our opinions, because someone could choose to do it at any time. I can picture a whole NRM with symbology of Ra's voyage through the underworld and the Yin-Yang of the cosmos. Wnt (talk) 22:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- As and when Manning does toggle her gender in that way we can have that discussion; at the moment I don't think we need to consider that. FormerIP, there have been numerous levelheaded requests for people to keep hold of their emotions even in face of a flood of repetitive contributions, and those requesters are right - would you mind avoiding describing people's contributions as "stupid", and give detail as to why? 7daysahead (talk) 10:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Other than a preferential name change, Manning has taken no steps to change identity. The name Bradley will remain with him as will his gender throughought his incarceration in an all-male facility. --DHeyward (talk) 02:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- A formerly all-male facility. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 00:27, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Apparently the liberal thing to do these days is to pretend that we don't know this person has a penis. Theofficeprankster (talk) 11:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Bigotry, Knowing and Otherwise
I would like to point out that an alarming number of comments in this discussion are upsettingly dismissive of trans people. Comments that equate being trans to declaring one's self some other species or fictional concept abound, as does a focus on legal names that, while presumably well-meaning, demonstrate a painful lack of awareness of the realities of gender transitions and gender identity.
I would respectfully ask that whoever ends up making the final decision on this - and I don't envy you in the least - dismiss these comments entirely. Reasoning motivated by transphobia, whether borne of genuine ignorance or active malice, has no place in the decision-making of this project. While my view is straightforward - the issue of how to handle trans people's identities was settled ages ago, and relitigating it as part of a large and heated political issue is unwise - I would ask that whatever criteria this issue is ultimately decided on, arguments based on ignorance and bigotry not be given any serious consideration. The underlying principles to consider are existing policy - the Manual of Style, our sourcing policies, our policies regarding respect for living people, and whatever other policies that existed before August 22nd, 2013 are relevant.
Efforts to alter those policies on this talk page are inappropriate. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is a discussion of the name change, not the pronoun issue. It's perfectly coherent for the article to be named Bradley Manning and for the pronoun "she" to be used for the person in question, particularly when referring to events after Manning's claim of female gender. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That doesn't seem like a response to anything I said. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It seemed that you were referring to MOS guidelines on pronoun selection for transgendered persons. Is this incorrect? Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That doesn't seem like a response to anything I said. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Just be careful your comments aren't otherkin-phobic themselves. In my opinion, the issues of name and pronouns have gotten mixed up. The article name issue is not really about whether Manning is male or female, but about whether Manning is "Bradley" or "Chelsea". Having said that, I appreciate that for many transgender people, the change of name is an important thing. StAnselm (talk) 01:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
And I'd like to congratulate Manning on successfully trolling Wikipedia, mass media, and even own supporters at http://www.bradleymanning.org/ --Niemti (talk) 01:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Past precedent
For the record, what we did in previous and less politically charged cases:
- Chaz Bono - announced transition on June 11th, article was moved the same day. Surgery was not completed at that time, and the change was made based on his publicist's reports of his preferred identity.
- Lana Wachowski - Edit warred over the course of a year, but changed in December of 2011, months before Lana's first public appearance as a woman.
- Laura Jane Grace - Announced plans to transition in May of 2012. Article was only touched by one editor for several weeks, who opposed moving. Consensus quickly formed to move the article, and it was done within a month of transition with only the original editor objecting.
Those are the three people I can think of who made transitions after they were already notable enough for articles. In all cases the article was moved quickly, prior to surgery, and upon the public announcement of a gender transition. Precedent, of course, is not binding, but it seems to me helpful to consider what we did in less politically charged circumstances. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is possible that there were far fewer eyes on those articles, so the renaming slipped by. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 04:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sure. There are lots of possibilities, and as I said, precedent isn't binding. That said, the fact that this is tied to a contentious political issue is a reason to be cautious about the attention this one is getting. In many ways I trust the project's judgment more when there isn't a huge crowd gawking at a topic. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Personally, my arguments for the page being at Bradley Manning have absolutely nothing to do with her not having transitioned yet, or the name change not being "official" or whatever. The situation is simply whether she is better known as Bradley or Chelsea at this moment in time. U-Mos (talk) 11:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would also take into account the page on Poppy Z. Brite. Totorotroll (talk) 19:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Invasion from reddit
I was wondering why I saw so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars and this is why - there has been three separate links on reddit to communities vested in seeing this page reverted to its original name. While new users are encouraged, this very vote seems to be a form of vandalism perpetrated by a much larger community of users disinterested in the way wikipedia works. It also begs the question as to whether consensus can be reached with so much outside influence. This is actually a fight that's existed on reddit for quite some time - whether gender can be self identified or not. There is a large group of people on reddit who would like nothing better than to tell the rest of the world what they can and can not do with their own self identification. Outside of giving a rundown on the complexities of gender in relation to biological function, and the system in place created to give gender "meaning", I don't think this argument should be on whether gender identity is "real" or not - and that's what this vote has actually become, a way for people on all sides of the issue to soapbox on whether or not they think a person can change their gender identification. This vote is in my mind a farce, and in no way represents the method in which wikipedia reaches consensus. Honestly, outside of the fact that I personally see this fight as an affront to a group of people that have to struggle to maintain their personal identities every day, and outside of the lack of knowledge when it comes to how gender identity works, I am appalled at what a shitshow this has become. Countered (talk) 06:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can you link to the Reddit thread/posts in question? Haipa Doragon (talk) 07:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/1kw14d/a_wikipedia_edit_war_has_started_brace_yourselves http://www.reddit.com/r/sjsucks/comments/1kwdp1/the_sjws_are_having_a_field_day_on_bradley/ http://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia/comments/1kvria/i_was_browsing_the_wikipedia_page_of_chelsea/ http://www.reddit.com/r/editwars/comments/1kw0s2/chelsea_manning_vs_bradley_manning/ http://www.reddit.com/r/TransphobiaProject/comments/1kx9ji/wikipedians_sure_are_mad_that_bradley_manning_got/
- The /r/wikipedia page alone has more than enough votes to have completely shifted the vote on whether or not the name should be changed, and it's clear from the comments which they support. Countered (talk) 07:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see the issue. None of those links are particularly popular (by Reddit standards), the wordings of the link text are neutral, and the discussion on Reddit is two-sided. On the /r/wikipedia page, there seems to be a slight preference for Bradley, but, so what? No one, anywhere, is telling people to vote in the RM discussion (I don't even think it's linked directly), and those few who do/did come here have every right to participate. Considering this talk page is now semi-protected, I doubt this is having much of an effect. -- tariqabjotu 07:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, your point of view has been supported by the influx of reddit users, of course you don't mind it. Regardless of which way they are swaying it - they are swaying it none-the-less. If they had been supporting my point of view, I would (and have) linked to their posts (see the last post I linked). Countered (talk) 07:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see the issue. None of those links are particularly popular (by Reddit standards), the wordings of the link text are neutral, and the discussion on Reddit is two-sided. On the /r/wikipedia page, there seems to be a slight preference for Bradley, but, so what? No one, anywhere, is telling people to vote in the RM discussion (I don't even think it's linked directly), and those few who do/did come here have every right to participate. Considering this talk page is now semi-protected, I doubt this is having much of an effect. -- tariqabjotu 07:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- First, this is a high profile and immediate issue in American history so hardly surprising editors would show here to opine. People care more about individuals who have had an effect on history, as opposed to celebrities or musicians. If Bill Clinton decided he was the female Clarissa Clinton would we automatically change that article's title and call Clinton a "she" when it was alleged he was raping and assaulting women? Not unless his defense at the time was he really was a woman so how could he have done so, which of course was not his defense. User:Carolmooredc 11:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Please assume good faith; I responded the way I did because that's how I assessed the situation, not because that served my position. I similarly did not accuse you of bringing this up because you want supporting remarks discounted (which is an easy accusation to make). You have no evidence that Reddit has been funneling lots of traffic here, other than "so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars". I don't follow how that shows an influx of Redditors. And, as you even admit, there are posts that also promote the Chelsea Manning title... so I don't see what the problem is. As I said, most of the posts are worded neutrally, and there are Redditors with a variety of positions, even in the most popular of the posts you linked; in fact, the top-rated comment here that expresses an opinion is rather tame, and sparks a remarkably decent debate about the title that doesn't devolve into the patent soapboxing and prejudice you fear. -- tariqabjotu 13:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You are incorrect in the belief that influx of users via a third party campaign will help your position. Quite the contrary, the views of new users recruited to support a particular POV will be ignored, and not help their cause at all. I see very few support posts worded "neutrally", but tons of posts with what User:Surtsicna above called "pure, policy-unrelated bigotry." I think this discussion was finally settled by Sue Gardner's comment, there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Wikipedia policy dictates. This talk page is not the right venue for proposing changes to Wikipedia policy. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your comment had nothing to do with what I said. I, for example, never argued that a third-party campaign helps my position. And I would never say that. Believe it or not, I would like this to be settled by consensus, fair and square. I don't care if this article stays at Chelsea Manning; that outcome would have zero effect on my life, and I understand there are acceptable reasons to do so (now and/or as time goes on). You don't seem to understand this, but discussions on Wikipedia are not wars or battles to be won. They're attempts to find out what we should do about a particular issue, given our vast number of guidelines and policies. And, despite your insistence that this is a black-and-white issue, where "there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Wikipedia policy dictates", there remains enough ambiguity in our set of policies and guidelines that reasonable people may still have disagreements. As has been pointed out a number of times, your eagerness to resort to labels and attacks on, and condescension toward, those who disagree with you is extremely unhelpful. -- tariqabjotu 15:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Per my new subsection below, it would help if people mentioned what Wikiprojects they mentioned it to on Wikipedia itself. Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 16:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Changing an article based on a subject's "personal preferences" or "self-identification" seems a weak argument, and possibly a dangerous precedent. I wonder, if a politician changed from being a Republican to a Democrat would we refer to them as a Democrat during the period in which they were a Republican? If a white person self-identifies as black or Native-American should Wikipedia do so? Chris Fynn (talk) 16:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
WP:COMMONAME
WP:COMMONNAME says that when a name changes, "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change". Hence most support votes above are premature and ignorant of what the text actually says since its too early to notice a trend. Therefore, when editors use this argument I hope they search properly by counting search returns dating from after the name-change announcement. Any admin closure should take al this into account and disregard any votes which count pre-transition announcement sources. Pass a Method talk 16:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I can't find the post alluding to 270 odd recent mentions of "Chelsea Manning" so opining here. Obviously this is big news this week and there will be 270 returns. However, what matters is what Manning is being called a month from now (with this and next week filtered out) and six months from now, and in books to be written in the future. Not to mention if Manning in fact sticks with that name, having changed it once before, or adopts another. User:Carolmooredc 20:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's the point. The article was moved within minutes of the announcement of the new name, so there were no sources to support the idea that sources call the subject Chelsea. We've seen a number of sources use the name in the context of the gender identity switch, but we're still left with inconsistent information about the use of the name in standard articles. As this article from the USA Today shows, the media has not had the seismic shift some people have prophesied. Among the sources that apparently have not switched over to Chelsea Manning (at least yet) are Reuters, BBC News, The New York Times, CBS News. -- tariqabjotu 03:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- The article refers this person as "she" because the editors did so. The content may be changed again into "he". By the way, you might want to refrain from calling votes "premature and ignorant" just because of content changes and of people's views about name change. --George Ho (talk) 13:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- BTW, "Chelsea Manning" has had 36,000 views yesterday while "Bradley Manning" had 16,000. So "Chelsea Manning" is twice as popular as "Bradley Manning". So if we go by popularity on wikipedia, Chelsea would be the obvious choice. Pass a Method talk 14:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because Bradley Manning redirects to Chelsea Manning, only 20,000 of those 36,000 views came directly to Chelsea Manning without going through Bradley Manning. It's impossible to say what the source of that difference is. Perhaps it's because people looking for information about this subject are more likely to search for or type in "Chelsea Manning".
- However, it's also possible the difference is influenced by the fact that several articles in the media (as listed at the top of this page) link to Chelsea Manning. It could be because there are a number of people involved on this talk page and various discussions about the naming issue repeatedly looking at the article Chelsea Manning (myself included), which would not require me to go via Bradley Manning (remember, these are individual, not unique, views we're talking about). Perhaps it's because the Main Page links directly to Chelsea Manning. Or perhaps it's because people have heard the name "Chelsea Manning" in the news and have decided to search for that, even though when looking for information on this person they would otherwise search for "Bradley Manning". We just don't know, and I don't think we can read too much into these figures with all the publicity at the moment.
- From the Stats FAQ, "I wouldn't base any important decisions on these stats." -- tariqabjotu 15:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
List of Wikiprojects that have been alerted
I don't see any mention of this, per WP:Canvass. I looked in a couple likely places and found below. Perhaps people could share if they posted it anywhere so that others can decide if they want to post it on other relevant projects. Feel free to add to list below. User:Carolmooredc 16:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- WikiProject_LGBT_studies
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Conservatism
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history
References to Manning in sources
Sue Gardner mentioned several sources supposedly switching over to Manning's new name. However, they appeared to be mostly blogs and viewpoints that people should accept and use Manning's chosen name. As I said in response to her, it seems better to look at how sources actually refer to Manning in ordinary stories and articles, particularly outside of the announcement of Manning's new identity. (Doing that, we see a direct contradiction to the wishes of the New York Times' public editor, for example, as explained here.) So, I've begun compiling a list; feel free to add to it. (I must say that, at the current time, it is very difficult to find sources from after the announcement that refer to Manning in a context other than the announcement itself, so I hope that, at least over time, this can grow.) -- tariqabjotu 16:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using Bradley
- The Independent (dated August 23): "It came just days after a judge at Fort Meade, in Maryland, sentenced Bradley Manning to 35 years in prison [...]"
- The New York Times (dated August 22 online, August 23 in print): "[...] just as the court-martial of Pfc. Bradley Manning included charges [...]"
- Reuters (dated August 23): "U.S. soldier Bradley Manning, who was sentenced on Wednesday [...]"
- BBC (dated August 22 afternoon): "Profile: Bradley Manning"
- Using Chelsea
- The Huffington Post (dated August 24): "Americans have reached no consensus on the fairness of the prison sentence given to Chelsea Manning"
- AP (dated August 26): "The Associated Press will henceforth use Pvt. Chelsea E. Manning and female pronouns for the soldier formerly known as Bradley Manning, in accordance with her wishes to live as a woman."
Re-posting what I said above in the other section about the usages I found... (reorganized a bit to match what tariqabjotu did.) - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 18:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using Bradley
- CNN's video " (dated August 22) [...] CNN will continue to refer to him as Bradley Manning since he has not yet legally changed his name [...]"
- Margaret Sullivan's blog, while talking about why the media should change, linked to the New York Times Manual of Styles which has provision to keep a newsworthy name against the subject's wish (Unless a former name is newsworthy or pertinent, use the name and pronouns (he, his, she, her, hers) preferred by the transgender person - original emphasis removed)
- Reuters (dated August 23) "Bradley Manning, the U.S. soldier sentenced this week for leaking 700,000 classified documents to WikiLeaks in the biggest breach of secret data in the country's history, could soon be entangled in another legal showdown [...]" (the rest of article only uses Manning, and apart from stating Manning's wish to live as Chelsea, has no mention of either of the first names)
- ABC News (dated August 22) "[...] Military officials say Bradley Manning has returned to a prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., to serve his 35-year prison sentence for giving mountains of classified material to WikiLeaks [...]" (also mentions Manning's wish to live as Chelsea)
- CBS News (dated August 23) title: "Bradley Manning identifies as transgender: Transitioning explained"
- Using Chelsea
- NBC News clearly has switched to preferred name by Manning in multiple articles published since Thursday afternoon.
- One opinion piece on ABC News supports the change
I think it's best if it gets summed up by this USA Today article: Media torn in Manning 'he' or 'she' pronoun debate
WP:BLP Issue
I have seen the issue of WP:BLP pop up time and time again in the move discussion so I want to know is it valid to say that the article's title move violates WP:BLP? If so where does it state this or if not where do people see it as saying it? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- This has already been addressed and you already dismissed the answer to your questions. Sportfan5000 (talk) 04:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Legality and notability
I found another case of a person not having a legal name change but their article reflecting the name tthey chose in the media.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bobby_Jindal
His "real", and legal name is Piyush Jindal, yet because of notability of his nickname in the media, it's been changed. There isn't even a rule utilized on this page either, and it's been like this for more than a year. Countered (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFF, lets focus on this article. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
because of notability of his nickname in the media
Yes. Exactly. The article is entitled Bobby Jindal not because he just decided to call himself that, but because reliable sources actually call him that. -- tariqabjotu 18:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Meaning of "no consensus" in this case?
If the result of this discussion is "no consensus", does that mean the title should be Bradley Manning or Chelsea Manning?
Obviously, the title is currently controversial (a contender for most controversial title ever). However, it only became controversial on August 22, 2013. Prior to that the title was stable at Bradley Manning. It just happens that the edit wheel war over the title happened to end up at Chelsea Manning, so the formal RM was created as moving Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning. However, the real discussion is about whether the title should be one or the other, not whether Chelsea Manning should be renamed to Bradley Manning (the distinction is subtle but matters if the result of the discussion is "no consensus").
If there is no consensus, it seems to me it should be reverted to the title that was stable before it became controversial. That means Bradley Manning. Yes, I also believe that should be the title, at least for now while that's how the subject is referred most commonly in reliable sources, but that should not undermine my point/argument at all: when there is no consensus in an RM discussion, the closer should restore the most recent stable name, which in this case is Bradley Manning. --B2C 03:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would think it would be Bradley Manning because there was no consensus to move to Chelsea in the first place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is evidence that BD2412 (talk · contribs), one of the closers, already understands this. -- tariqabjotu 03:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think we need to second guess here, or start proposing what should be done if X, or Y, or Z. We're just going to have to trust the closing team. I also hope this doesn't go to move review...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Re User:Tariqabjotu's comment "There is evidence that BD2412 (talk · contribs), one of the closers, already understands this." — I think there's a problem regarding this. Please see the discussion I had with User:BD2412 in the section on Jimbo's Talk page at [10] starting with BD2412's message of 12:28, 27 August 2013. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Since my name is being invoked here, let me be clear: it is really of no moment to the discussion at hand to speculate about what closing admins "understand". The arguments with respect to this question have been raised at various points on this page, and in various other forums, and will be given full consideration at the appropriate time. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @BD2412: I'd hardly say I'm speculating. Your sandbox says
Although the article has since been locked at a particular title, the presumption is that the title it had before any moves took place is correct, unless there is a consensus of the community to change that title
. If you had/have an issue with people alluding to your notes, even obliquely, you should have written them off-wiki. It's still not too late to do that. -- tariqabjotu 19:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)- From my perspective, that is speculating. It is basically summarizing the argument as it has been made in the discussion. bd2412 T 20:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- The question I asked BD2412 at Jimbo's talk page wasn't about his sandbox, it was about his comment at WP:ANI[11] where he wrote, "I interpret WP:BRD as requiring a consensus in favor of a title different than the one that existed yesterday, in order for such a change to be effected." I asked the question which title is "the one that existed yesterday"? Instead of answering, BD2412 made a comment about his sandbox. If that was a mistake, User:BD2412 has a chance to clear that up by answering the question here. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- User:Kww has since helpfully reminded me that BRD is not policy - although it is, obviously, a very helpful principle. Cheers! bd2412 T 00:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- The question I asked BD2412 at Jimbo's talk page wasn't about his sandbox, it was about his comment at WP:ANI[11] where he wrote, "I interpret WP:BRD as requiring a consensus in favor of a title different than the one that existed yesterday, in order for such a change to be effected." I asked the question which title is "the one that existed yesterday"? Instead of answering, BD2412 made a comment about his sandbox. If that was a mistake, User:BD2412 has a chance to clear that up by answering the question here. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- From my perspective, that is speculating. It is basically summarizing the argument as it has been made in the discussion. bd2412 T 20:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @BD2412: I'd hardly say I'm speculating. Your sandbox says
- Since my name is being invoked here, let me be clear: it is really of no moment to the discussion at hand to speculate about what closing admins "understand". The arguments with respect to this question have been raised at various points on this page, and in various other forums, and will be given full consideration at the appropriate time. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Re User:Tariqabjotu's comment "There is evidence that BD2412 (talk · contribs), one of the closers, already understands this." — I think there's a problem regarding this. Please see the discussion I had with User:BD2412 in the section on Jimbo's Talk page at [10] starting with BD2412's message of 12:28, 27 August 2013. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
If there is "no consensus", the article stays at the current title (Chelsea Manning), also because of the evident BLP problems that the other title would mean, specifically not harming the article subject. Josh Gorand (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Supplementary !vote rationale
by User:Morwen and User:David Gerard. Please comment at bottom.
It is our position that Wikipedia policies and guidelines (particularly WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY), and precedent of previous similar page moves, mandates the correct location of the article as being Chelsea Manning; that this was true at the time of the article move and true at the time of the BLP action to keep it there, and remains true now. As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this.
There have also been repeated claims that we have not explained our rationales in sufficient detail for the questioners to understand; this is an attempt to supply said detail, at length, in the hope of clearing up matters.
MOS:IDENTITY
Firstly, let us look at the specific guidance that MOS:IDENTITY has regarding trans people. At the time of writing, this was:
- Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life.
If we look back in the history of the page we can see it has been stable for a long time. By the end of 2009 it had achieved nearly its current form:
- Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to using the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies when referring to any phase of that person's life. [12]
We don't think there's any serious dispute that Manning's "latest expressed gender self-identification" is female. Questions of Manning's inferred legal name or medical transition status are irrelevant to this.
Although none of the examples (and we note the examples were added later) are personal names here, "Bradley Manning" is a gendered (proper) noun on the plain meanings of words. If we refer to Wikipedia's own page on the name Bradley, we see that all the people listed who bear it as a first name identify as male, and our infobox asserts that the name is male. There is apparently some marginal evidence it might be coming into use as a neutral name for children born today, but this is not terribly relevant when applied to Private Manning - its usage 25 years ago (among Manning's peer group) is what counts. It is clear from the chat logs (see below) that Manning believes it to be strongly gendered.
MOS:IDENTITY demands that Manning not be "referred to" with gendered nouns that are contrary to expressed preference. So, Manning should not be referred to as "Bradley Manning", under any text covered by the Manual of Style. (This allows mention of the fact that Manning used to be known as Bradley Manning, because that it itself is not a use of the term as a reference per se)
It has been claimed by various editors that this section of the Manual of Style does not apply to article titles, and is limited to the actual article text. This is unfounded. The MoS section "Article titles" explicitly notes:
- The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title. (our emphasis)
WP:COMMONNAME is being used as a justification for the article to be moved back to "Bradley Manning". The situation is developing rapidly, but we have a good number of press sources now using "Chelsea Manning" consistently, with some hold-outs still using "Bradley Manning". The British press, following Leveson Inquiry guidance (see below), moved quickly (even right-wing outlets, e.g. the Daily Mail, changing within hours), and the US press has been moving over the course of the past few days. Although MOS:IDENTITY is already sufficient, it is increasingly clear that "Chelsea Manning" now is the "common" name, regardless of whether this was the case on the 22nd.
WP:COMMONNAME contains several caveats:
- Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources.
Using a former name of a trans person who has met the criteria for MOS:IDENTITY seems to meet the definition of "inaccurate" here. The general point of WP:COMMONNAME is where there is a pool of titles that it would be acceptable for the article to be at, you pick the common name; it does not rule things in when they would otherwise not be acceptable.
It also states that
- more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change.
Throughout the project, it is generally understood that WP:COMMONNAME is a default principle, to apply when no other good practice can be found or developed. Far from being straightforward, it is supplemented by a vast number of subpages which either clarify what is meant by "common name", or override it in specific fields where a more technical name is considered helpful, in the way that MOS:IDENTITY does.
We therefore consider it clear that the correct title of this article, under the Manual of Style, is Chelsea Manning.
Precedent
The earliest article about a trans person on Wikipedia we have been able to find is Wendy Carlos. The history shows that there was some debate about pronouns and wording of the article, but there has never been any question that the article should be anywhere else. Carlos, despite having achieved notability under her old name, had been transitioned for several decades by the time her Wikipedia article was created, however, so this does not present a useful precedent for how Wikipedia handles recent transitions.
We can think of three particularly famous people to have transitioned in the public eye in recent years: Chaz Bono, Laura Jane Grace, and Lana Wachowski. Let's have a look at the naming of these articles:
- Chaz Bono
- The article "Chastity Bono" was created on March 4, 2002. It was moved to "Chaz Bono" on June 11, 2009 [13], the same day the news that Bono had transitioned broke. Although discussed on the talk page, the article has remained in the same place since, and no WP:RM was filed.
- Laura Jane Grace
- The article "Tom Gabel" was originally created as a redirect to the band "Against Me" on March 24, 2006. It became a stub about the lead singer of the band on May 21, 2008. The news that the singer would transition and take the name "Laura Jane Grace" was reported on May 9, 2012, and resulted in an immediate flurry of activity on the article. If we examine the wording in the Rolling Stone article at the time more closely, we see that it was announced as a future intent (it was also not entirely clear whether the subject was dropping the "Gabel"), specifically that "Gabel will eventually take the name Laura Jane Grace" [14].
- There was an inconclusive discussion on the talk page, and a move to Laura Jane Grace on May 28, 2012 was reverted later that day. The article was moved again to Laura Jane Grace on June 6, 2012, after more evidence had arisen regarding an actual change of name. This caused a small amount of protest on the talk page, but the dispute was not escalated, and the article has remained there to this day.
- The Wachowskis
- The article about the Wachowskis (directors of The Matrix) was created on May 5, 2001, under the name "Wachowski brothers". They invariably work together, and have never had separate articles. Unlike the other cases, there had been rumours regarding Lana's transition for a long time before the subject officially went public with it. The first edit regarding this was made on May 4, 2004. [15] For a long time the consensus was that sources like this were not sufficiently reliable to report on, and there was certainly no evidence that the elder sibling had publically transitioned. The films they worked on continued to have the "Wachowski Brothers" as their screen credit, including Speed Racer (2008). In 2011 it was noticed that the name "Lana" was being used in press for "Cloud Atlas", and a requests for comment started regarding whether the article should be moved. This met broad popular acclaim, and it was moved.
The common element to all three cases is that Wikipedia changed the article name promptly once sufficiently good sources were available, including personal statements of transitioning.
WP:BLP
We have also invoked WP:BLP. The BLP policy is a set of general principles rather than a detailed guide to implementation, so it might not be immediately apparent to people unfamiliar with trans issues how this should work.
- Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy.
Due regard for trans people's privacy usually includes not mentioning birth names. Birth names are considered highly sensitive information, not to be shared lightly, and we expect most trans people would be highly distressed to see their old name prominently in the article - deliberate use of an old name when a person has expressed a strong wish for the use of their new name being a common mode of personal attack upon transsexuals in the wider world, in the same manner as deliberate misgendering (as can be seen on the wiki itself, where a common tactic for anti-transgender vandals is "outing" someone with their old name and/or changing pronouns. This includes a recent attempted "doxxing" of one of us in the present case by a banned user.). For example, in a recent report into the practices of the British press, Lord Justice Leveson found that [16]
- The use of 'before' names as well as photographs of the individuals in question not only causes obvious distress but can place them at risk.
In cases where the subject achieved fame or notoriety before a name change the transition is part of the narrative. For Chelsea Manning we accept it would be impossible to suppress her birth name entirely (and Manning's latest statement concedes that in practical terms, it is unlikely, despite Manning's sincerely expressed preferences). But inability to protect the subject's privacy completely does not mean we should not make our best effort: we should go to the closest thing that is possible, and give Chelsea Manning primacy.
- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist,
Tabloid, sensationalist, journalism is far more likely to be presenting old names as "real" names and self-chosen names as some kind of nickname; tabloids are not a role model for Wikipedia to emulate.
- or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.
As User:Sue Gardner has pointed out, one of most compelling points is the prospect of harm. We quote her here:
- I will take a crack at the question about harm. Recapping: BLP says the possibility of harm to living subjects must be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This matters because BLP trumps COMMONNAME. (I am setting aside the question of MOS:IDENTITY for the purposes of this comment.)
- It is reasonable to believe there's a possibility Manning could be harmed by Wikipedia retitling the article Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning, because she made a formal announcement explicitly asking that "starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun." Wikipedia is an important site: the #5 most-popular in the world, read by a half-billion people every month, more widely-read than any other news or information site. If Wikipedia were to call its article Bradley Manning, Manning might believe that Wikipedia is rejecting her requested name and/or gender characterization. It is not uncommon for people who feel dissonance between their experienced gender identity and the gender they were assigned at birth to feel significant emotional distress, at least some of which is due to how they're treated by society. (See this article.) And indeed, in Manning's May 2010 chat logs she describes herself as having GID (gender identity disorder), as having had three breakdowns, as being "in an awkward state," "uncomfortable with my role in society," "scared of being misunderstood" and "isolated as fuck." She says: "i wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me… plastered all over the world press… as boy…" I think it's clear that Chelsea Manning hopes and expects that people will use the name and pronoun she asked them to, and that to the extent people do not, they risk causing further trauma to someone who is clearly already significantly distressed. Sue Gardner (talk) 03:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
It is relevant that, although commenting on the article talk page in her capacity as an ordinary user, Sue Gardner deals at length with BLP issues at Wikipedia's interface with the wider world in her role as WMF Executive Director, and so has relevant expertise in and insight into such issues that should be considered.
Furthermore,
- BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone [...] biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times.
It is neither cautious, dispassionate nor fair to ignore someone's express stated wishes about how they should be known, when that sort of change is hardly unprecedented and is a result of a condition recognised by the scientific-medical-legal-social-consensus. It is not an area that compromise is possible on - we have to pick one.
Keeping the page at Chelsea Manning is consistent with the style guide, BLP and the usage of sources. Going against all three to move it back to Bradley Manning would be seen as a political statement that they are wrong: that trans people are mentally ill, and/or are delusional. It constitutes gratuitous offence: offence that is easily avoidable, significantly harmful and adds nothing to coverage of the subject, and that therefore should be avoided. Wikipedia should not do that, and policy and precedent strongly support that it should not.
Morwen (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC); David Gerard (talk) 15:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Comments on rationale
- Re "As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification" — Please recognize that there are other points of view when it comes to deciding what is the more appropriate title, and that changes to the long-standing title of Bradley Manning should be done only with consensus when there is an objection. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- This did in fact occur, though it was pretty quick (don't have the diff to hand, have posted it repeatedly before). The key point is that (a) it was clearly right (b) WP:BLP mandates not leaving it wrong - local consensus on a talk page cannot override BLP. I do appreciate this can be disconcerting in an area people don't understand - David Gerard (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your arrogance knows no bounds. -- tariqabjotu 15:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- This did in fact occur, though it was pretty quick (don't have the diff to hand, have posted it repeatedly before). The key point is that (a) it was clearly right (b) WP:BLP mandates not leaving it wrong - local consensus on a talk page cannot override BLP. I do appreciate this can be disconcerting in an area people don't understand - David Gerard (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- (I'm actually at work right now and probably out this evening, but promise to respond to stuff here, expand further, etc in due course.) - David Gerard (talk) 15:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for writing this. Having the policies explained by folk more familiar with them is very much appreciated. —me_and 15:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you for this detailed rationale which I fully support. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't have time at the moment to write a fuller response. However, I am perplexed by the idea that this was co-written by the two editors who performed moves to Chelsea Manning and protected the article at that title. Why you two weren't capable of coming up with your own independent responses (David, in particular, who repeatedly rebuffed any editor who dared ask for one), and instead framed this in terms of what "we" did is highly disconcerting. It, at the very least, gives the impression that there was collusion to put this title in place. Surely, you realize that this format will raise a few eyebrows. It doesn't help either that you start off with the arrogant presupposition that
As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this.
I'm getting the sinking feeling that we have been manipulated. That MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline that Morwen, at least, admits she can "partially take credit for" doesn't help either. It marks a shameful chapter in Wikipedia's history when two administrators can collude to enforce an outcome and then when presented with ample evidence that their position is highly controversial, and seemingly in the minority, argue that their actions were clearly right, except to us peons who just don't "understand". There are understandable, valid rationales presented on this talk page for having the article at Chelsea Manning, but I'd like to think that even a great many of those who support the Chelsea Manning name can realize that this attitude is disgusting. -- tariqabjotu 16:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)- WP:BLP states right there in the intro:
- We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
- As cited above, titles count as part of the article. That's what I mean by "WP:BLP mandates not leaving it wrong" - David Gerard (talk) 16:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Morwen writing part of the guideline is irrelevant; it's an accepted guideline, and that's the point. I co-wrote the first draft of WP:BLP (with SlimVirgin), but that's irrelevant to its acceptance - David Gerard (talk) 16:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I put that badly in the interview, and unfortunately it turns out I can't go back and edit it! I wasn't responsible for that wording - but it was codifying long-standing existing practice. I make no apologies for being consistent. Morwen (talk) 16:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- And we didn't actually communicate on the issue at the time, except on this page, FWIW (though we talked about it soon afterward and since); "collusion" appears to be a reading that assumes bad faith - David Gerard (talk) 16:44, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah. I mean, clearly we have discussed this since, but openly posting a joint statement seems to be a fairly weak definition of "collusion". Morwen (talk) 16:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I notice that User:Tariqabjotu in the above comments and their corresponding edit summaries accuses user:David Gerard of "arrogance", being "disgusting", having "manipulated" others and "colluding to enforce". These are completely unacceptable comments. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sure Tariqabjotu will strike out the apparent personal attacks in due course - David Gerard (talk) 16:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:BLP states right there in the intro:
- David, I will do no such thing. A spade is a spade. When asked about what caused you to consider the Bradley Manning name a BLP violation, for three days, your best answer was "I already told you" and accusations of IDHT. When asked to point to where exactly you already explained yourself, you pointed to a thread where, clearly, no such explanation exists. No, instead, in a statement delivered through someone else you argue that the action was "sufficiently obvious" that it shouldn't have required explanation. You continually refuse to consider the idea that your interpretation of BLP might be out of touch with most of the rest of the community, or that it's even controversial at all (despite five days of heated debate). You bombastically argue that
The key point is that...[the move to Chelsea Manning] was clearly right
. Further, when anyone so much as mentions the idea that Morwen moved the article hastily or before consensus was achieved, you are quick to jump in and argue that those assertions are "factually incorrect"... as if we peasants can't draw our own conclusions from the relevant thread as it was at the time of Morwen's move. The adjectives I used were entirely appropriate, and you can abandon all effort to get me to rescind them. -- tariqabjotu 20:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- David, I will do no such thing. A spade is a spade. When asked about what caused you to consider the Bradley Manning name a BLP violation, for three days, your best answer was "I already told you" and accusations of IDHT. When asked to point to where exactly you already explained yourself, you pointed to a thread where, clearly, no such explanation exists. No, instead, in a statement delivered through someone else you argue that the action was "sufficiently obvious" that it shouldn't have required explanation. You continually refuse to consider the idea that your interpretation of BLP might be out of touch with most of the rest of the community, or that it's even controversial at all (despite five days of heated debate). You bombastically argue that
- User:Morwen and User:David Gerard, I originally intended to read through all of your "supplementary rationale" first, think it over and then post a comment. But I only came this far:
- "As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this."
- I think this statement is incredibly arrogant and therefore offensive. It reads as if you (as promoters of political correctness towards transgender issues) were standing on a higher level of morality, and that users "unfamiliar with the topic" were, in that sense, somewhat clueless dumbasses, whose opinions therefore were objectively wrong and should be discarded of. My perception is quite the opposite: You are turning this into a political debate by (in my opinion) needlessly jumping on that "transgender paragraph" at MOS:IDENTITY, combined with WP:BLP.
- To me, there is no "transgender issue" at all. I based my above reasoning why I think that the page should be moved back to "Bradley Manning" purely on WP:COMMONNAME.
There are books like "The Passion of Bradley Manning: The Story Behind the Wikileaks Whistleblower", "Truth and Consequences: The U. S. Vs. Bradley Manning", "Private: Bradley Manning, WikiLeaks, and the Biggest Exposure of Official Secrets in American History" or "The Radicalisation of Bradley Manning". My perception is that "this Wikileaks whistleblower" is a famous person still best known as "Bradley Manning" (because contrary to a new pope or king, the name change did not make worldwide breaking news headlines [but e.g. his conviction produced those]), which should also be reflected here on Wikipedia(In the light of AP, the world's biggest news agency, adopting the "Chelsea Manning" term, I have changed my opinion about the "common name", see above) Please note that for my rationale, it is of zero importance why this person changed the name from Bradley to Chelsea (as a precedent, I had Cat Stevens in mind).--FoxyOrange (talk) 16:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)- To quote editor Thryduulf, "I don't think the Cat Stevens article is a good case study to use because that article is at the title of the stage name he used at the height of his musical notability. If I am reading the article right, his personal name was Steven Demetre Georgiou from birth until he converted to Islam and became Yusuf Islam. He also appears to treat his religious conversion as a new beginning, not saying that he was always Yusuf Islam. A change of name of that sort is different from a person expressing that their true identity (not just name) has always been different from that which they presented as. Neither is more or less right, but I think that "I was Christian but am now a Buddhist" is sufficiently different to "I am a man, although my body looked female, I have realised that I have always been male" to make the article about person A a poor one to look to when deciding how to write about person B." Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It was phrased that way so as to presume good faith. I suspect there was no perfect way to say it. If you go further, you will see citations as to WP:RSes dating from the change, not before - David Gerard (talk) 16:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'd be happy to strike "who are [...] wider world are" from the statement if it would help. Morwen (talk) 16:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It was phrased that way so as to presume good faith. I suspect there was no perfect way to say it. If you go further, you will see citations as to WP:RSes dating from the change, not before - David Gerard (talk) 16:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- The wording I criticized already starts at "As editors who are familiar with trans issues". As I pointed out, to me it is completely irrelevant what you are familiar with. The introduction to your supplementary rationale reads as if non-experts would not understand you anyway (which is why I took offense and did not read any further).--FoxyOrange (talk) 16:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'd say leave a correction here, and the above text fixed, for all its defects - although sincere, the commenter didn't actually read as far as the part answering their further objection - David Gerard (talk) 16:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't quite understand why two editors (ones who went through with the initial controversial pagemoves sans consensus, no less) feel the need to post their opinion in a special section away from the rest of the RM discussion. There is a lengthy discussion above which you have contributed heavily to already. Do you intend for us to take your opinion more seriously than other editors and provide it with a special spotlight? I think moving part of the discussion down here will have a chilling effect on consensus building, fewer editors will feel free to comment on the tome you just posted, and will simply split the conversation into two locations. NewAccount4Me (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because Morwen made the move and I made it again and locked it there, and people asked why. And we've been threatened with every sanction under the sun for having behaved according to policy and practice. And we've answered in pieces repeatedly, so the evidence is a joined-up response was warranted - David Gerard (talk) 16:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry if I came across a bit harsh. I can see that rereading my comment. However, now that you've explained yourself so thoroughly, perhaps take a deep breath and a step back? The initial moves, your initial commentary in this new section, and the fact that you made the section at all makes me feel like you (and a few more editors on both sides, really) are having some WP:OWN issues. The editors closing the RM request are well aware of your position, as is everyone else who has been contributing. NewAccount4Me (talk) 17:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because Morwen made the move and I made it again and locked it there, and people asked why. And we've been threatened with every sanction under the sun for having behaved according to policy and practice. And we've answered in pieces repeatedly, so the evidence is a joined-up response was warranted - David Gerard (talk) 16:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that many of us, including both the people who made the initial moves and myself for that matter, have participated and made our voices known very well. It might help to take a pause for a few days and let new voices chime in. CaseyPenk (talk) 17:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, ultimately because I thought the formatting would be a bit of a mess if I tried to put it in as a !vote? Morwen (talk) 17:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is very helpful that the admins who made the action in question have posted a detailed rationale explaining why the move was necessitated by Wikipedia policy, specifically BLP. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is a lot of presumption by those “in the know” that using a trans person’s original name is offensive and they are the sole arbitrators of that judgment call. One need not be African American to know that being called a nigger is patently offensive. What about calling a dwarf a midget? Did you know the term “gyped” is offensive to Gypsies? How about eenie meenie miny moe? While I’m not doubting that proponents that “Bradley=offensive” argument are sincere, this just doesn’t pass the porn test of “I know it when I see it”. Through his lawyer Manning said he prefers both male/female pronouns (and possibly Bradley/Chelsea?) depending on which phase of his life is being discussed. This preference actually goes against the guideline which says the latest identified pronoun should be used throughout a subject’s biography. If using “Bradley” is offensive to referring to the “female” Manning, then using “she” to refer to the “male” Manning expressly goes against Manning’s wishes.Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- As has been noted elsewhere, the attorney's statement is ambiguous, possibly deliberately so (BD2412 I think it was who suggested this) about Manning's views towards pronoun usage for the period of her life prior to 22 August - it could be read as meaning that she is resigned to such usage, isn't bothered about such usage, or requests such usage. Personally I suspect it is the first of these, but I am no more qualified to make that determination than you or any other editor here is. What is clear is that there is no evidence presented that using female pronouns for the period of time before she made the public announcement of her gender would be something she would find offensive. As for the "I know it when I see it", I don't understand the point you are making - if you personally don't know whether something is offensive to a given group of people, why would you doubt it when others who do know, including members of that group of people, say it is? Thryduulf (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- If the media sees fit to use "Bradley", I fail to see how the usage should be offensive in general. Especially for Manning. If a preponderance of the media uses Chelsea, then we will have the answer. Newspapers and the like have been debating "taste" far longer than Wikipedia has.Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- As has been noted elsewhere, the attorney's statement is ambiguous, possibly deliberately so (BD2412 I think it was who suggested this) about Manning's views towards pronoun usage for the period of her life prior to 22 August - it could be read as meaning that she is resigned to such usage, isn't bothered about such usage, or requests such usage. Personally I suspect it is the first of these, but I am no more qualified to make that determination than you or any other editor here is. What is clear is that there is no evidence presented that using female pronouns for the period of time before she made the public announcement of her gender would be something she would find offensive. As for the "I know it when I see it", I don't understand the point you are making - if you personally don't know whether something is offensive to a given group of people, why would you doubt it when others who do know, including members of that group of people, say it is? Thryduulf (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well done, folks. Excellently and cogently presented. I think the only further argument that needs to be fostered is the WP:SELFPUB rationale; specifically, that since WP:BLP mandates that the most relevant sources be used, and the MOS:IDENTITY guidelines state a given self-identification is the correct frame for both title and content, that we should make the assumption that a self-declaration IS the best source for us to rely upon vis-a-vis a given person's gender identity by way of WP:SELFPUB. A different comment above seems to claim this as an "extraordinary claim" but I find that assertion to be extraordinary; no individual knows you and your internal identity better than you yourself. As far as I'm concerned this line of reasoning is a laser clear path to the end of the discussion and I cannot come up with a rational counter-argument that does not rely on personal or inherent bias. QuackCD (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Regarding the substance of the points made, I see some flaws.
- MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline that, as I understand it, was largely shaped by the LGBT WikiProject. While many such guidelines shaped by WikiProjects exist, this is a much broader discussion than the one that led to the guideline. For that reason, our hands should not be tied to adhering to it strictly if consensus here suggests otherwise. I also don't buy the idea that MOS:IDENTITY is supposed to cover article titles (as it explicitly says WP:AT should govern them) or that personal names were supposed to be covered under gendered nouns (given the examples provided). Why you feel content accepting WP:AT's reference to the MoS, but not the MoS's reference to WP:AT is beyond me; to me, it clearly seems like a local consensus deferring to a global consensus when conflicts arise.
- Much of the rest of your comments about MOS:IDENTITY and about precedent in general suggest an unsubstantiated idea that transgender people are somehow different from everyone else. They suggest that a transgender person's choice of changing their name means much more than anyone else's. The same argument that a subject wants to put their old name in the past applies to virtually everyone who changes their name. And, yet consensus has shown (Cat Stevens, Lily Allen, etc.) that we need not always move our article if sources don't do otherwise. You reference to WP:COMMONNAME in your explanation borders on insulting, as if your prognostication absolves you of your missteps.
- Your BLP explanation, as I expected, is quite out there. As you eventually admit, the name Bradley Manning is public knowledge and it's never going to disappear. The idea that having it as an article title just hours after the world knew the subject solely as such is a violation of privacy is, frankly, absurd. I already responded to Sue's suggestion of how the name "Bradley Manning" will cause harm to a person who probably won't see a computer for decades, so I don't need to repeat that. And, as I've said before, your interpretation that BLP compels us to rename articles to meet subjects' preferred names seems out of touch with consensus, as demonstrated with similar name changes at some other articles. As before, I have yet to see any evidence that transexual people should be afforded different treatment in this regard. That a Justice Leveson or GLAAD wants us to doesn't seem to be relevant; we have our own policies and guidelines, and just as we wouldn't allow any political, religious, or advocacy group to shape our articles or force us to do anything, we shouldn't allow pro-LGBT groups to decide matters here. We should all be able to separate our personal agendas from what Wikipedia policies and guidelines enjoin us to do. -- tariqabjotu 20:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with much of what Tariqabjotu has said, so I will not repeat the arguments. Like FoxyOrange, I also feel insulted by the opening paragraph of the joint statement, which suggests that editors unfamiliar with trans issues cannot pose valid arguments in this debate.
- I would like to add more examples of cases where we have not moved the article title, despite the clear wishes of the article subject: Burma vs. Myanmar, Snoop Dogg vs. Snoop Lion, Jay-Z vs. Jay Z. These have been mentioned before, but have not yet been fully discussed in the current debate. Edge3 (talk) 22:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- None of those people are expressing a lifetime change of gender - "I always have felt I was female". In fact none of those examples are dealing with gender at all, and the examples of those articles that do deal with changing gender we have followed the same course. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Tariqabjotu, this has nothing to do with which group brought forward Mos:Identity and who cares if they had? It's been accepted by the rest of the community and speaks to respecting a living person coming out as transgender. That's a huge step for anyone to make when there is such hostility and violence directed specifically at trans individuals and trans women in particular. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Except WP:MOS has nothing to do with article titles, that fact still stands. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:58, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- That argument has already been addressed by editors who are considered some of the truest authorities on these issues. MosIdentity does, in fact state that "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life." I think common sense is that when international media follow a living person's wishes to be called by the name she chooses, as has happened many times before (including stage names and nom de plumes) Wikipedia has no issue doing the same. In fact it's such a core aspect of a person's identity the name change when reported on by reliable sources should take effect immediately like any good online encyclopedia should. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Except WP:MOS has nothing to do with article titles, that fact still stands. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:58, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- re " that this was true at the time of the article move and true at the time of the BLP action to keep it there, and remains true now" - Wrong, wrong, and wrong. This entire section seems to have been started haphazardly by an admin desperate to justify his misuse of admin powers. The only point here even remotely worth considering is the MOS:IDENT one. Regarding the part of WP:MOS "The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title" - Some folks seem to use this as justification for changing the name in the title. But MOS:IDENT deals with pronouns not actual names. If there was a pronoun in this title, I would agree the pronoun should reflect the female identification, but there isn't a pronoun in the titles; hence, MOS:IDENT doesn't apply. NickCT (talk) 22:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think this whole thing is crazy, what is going to stop these two admin to do this same thing the next heated debate comes up? Are we going to make m ore splashes in the media as a result? The fact was that as soon as Manning chose the name "Chelsea" for himself you went into action against policy, against consensus of Wikipedia and make the choice yourself Morwen and David Gerard to go ahead with it. Manning has been documented as being Bradley already, and the military will not accept the name Chelsea, so really what is the subject more notable for? Also and this is the last thing for people to think about, would this discussion be the same if Manning had killed and tortured children as his crime and changed his name? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Common sense will likely lead the way as it has in this case. Those two admins arguably did exactly the right thing and for exactly the right reasons. Who cares if the media mentions Wikipedia? They already have many complimenting the good work in respecting her wishes. There is no evidence that the military won't accept a legal name change when it gets one, in fact it's highly unlikely that they will do anything but honor it. The notability issue is moot, the BLP is here and it remains a BLP, ergo we should respect her personage and use her gender-identity as stated just as we do on other BLPs. The nature of the crimes is a red herring. The issues remain the same wether one sees her as a hero or traitor. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the time to write this excellent summary. I'd have to agree that a clear sighted reading of policy, together with the expectation of very high page views for Chelsea's article, left you no choice but to act as you did.FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- After following this debate I'm starting to think moving the page quickly was the right thing to do and that there probably should be a special exception in WP:COMMONNAME in the future for this type of situation.
- However, I don't think it is all that obvious. Private Manning is notable for her deeds as Bradley Manning and it is reasonable to expect that those looking for her article expect to find it under Bradley Manning for quite some time, especially if reliable sources would have continued to use Bradley. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and a Wikipedia title is not used to address the subject nor does it necessarily reflect the subjects currently used name, in fact it fairly often does not. In particular it is not a guideline on how to address people (although it seems that non-wikipedians might not understand this [17]). WP:COMMONNAME exists for good reasons: it is an easy to follow rule that promotes neutrality and avoids conflict, confusion and the risk of causing information loops. What complicates matters in this particular case is that using Bradley might make it seem like we maliciously deny her the right to choose her own gender identity. Unless there is a very good reason for doing so, not changing the title to Chelsea seems unnecessarily cruel and in this case I think that outweighs the other considerations (especially since non-wikipedians seldom understand Wikipedia policy, in my experience).
- I still do not see the relevance of WP:BLP in this particular case. If we weren't allowed to cause "emotional distress" to subjects of BLP:s there wouldn't be any. WP:BLP is, as I understand it, mostly about avoiding unsubstantiated claims (i.e. libel). In particular, I don't think we would have caused much distress if the article had been kept at Bradley for the duration of the move request. —Space simian (talk) 01:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's a whole section above explaining more how to apply BLP in cases like these. The former name is really not an issue as long as the redirect points to this article. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but I don't find that section convincing. —Space simian (talk) 01:29, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's a whole section above explaining more how to apply BLP in cases like these. The former name is really not an issue as long as the redirect points to this article. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Morwen and David Gerard. Thank you so much for writing this up: I think it's clear and useful, and I agree with your conclusion that keeping the page named Chelsea Manning is consistent with MOS:IDENTITY, WP:BLP and increasingly also with WP:COMMONNAME. I also agree that at this point moving back to titling the article Bradley Manning would add nothing valuable to the encyclopedia, and could be gratuitously offensive to Manning and to other transgender people. I do want to elaborate a little WRT WP:COMMONNAME. To the extent that it matters how reliable sources refer to Chelsea Manning, it's worth noting (as pointed out elsewhere on this page) that the New York Times and the Associated Press have both now announced they intend to use Chelsea Manning on first reference going forward. Deputy NY Times copy desk editor Susan Wessling wrote that “Starting tomorrow, we will move to a new formulation: … Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Pfc. Bradley Manning… ‘Private Manning’ on later references, and ‘she’ for the pronoun.”" and the AP wrote that "The Associated Press will henceforth use Pvt. Chelsea E. Manning and female pronouns for the soldier formerly known as Bradley Manning, in accordance with her wishes to live as a woman." The AP decision is particularly significant because AP provides copy for more than 1,700 newspapers in 120 countries, as well as about 5,000 broadcast outlets. It's not impossible for media organizations to change AP copy, but most don't, which means the AP decision will result in many, many papers and broadcast outlets starting to use the name Chelsea Manning and the female pronouns, now. Sue Gardner (talk) 05:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Retort to supplementary !vote rationale
by RA (✍). Please comment at bottom.
As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this.I don't like beginning with something as negative as this, but this is a particularly arrogant statement and it raises questions about these two admins being too WP:INVOLVED in the topic. I'm also concerned about the use of the plural pronoun in this statement to explain the rationale behind the sequence of actions (administrative and non-administrative) that took place. It points to some degree of WP:TEAM-work at play. Note: some degree.
What are we naming: an article or a person?
First, throughout this discussion, folk have conflated the title we give to an article and the name of the subject of that article. As explained in policy (Wikipedia:Article titles) and the MOS (at WP:IDENTITY) these often the same - but not always.
Just because we give an article some title does not mean that we are calling the person by that name or are implying that that's the right name to call the subject by. It is an article we are naming here. Not a human. It is entirely possible to call the article one thing and the human another. Indeed, it is frequently the case that we do.
Also, there is some groupthink I can see at play with regard to reading (or not reading) WP:IDENTITY. Commenters appear to have followed the lead of earlier (possibly too enthusiastic) commenters who quoted from the second bullet point of this guideline. However, the question here is what title the article should be at. Article titles are addressed in the first bullet point of WP:IDENTITY:
"Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article."
So there is no need to make strained arguments about what is a gendered noun or not. The MOS is clear, we look to the usual policies. Specifically in this case, Wikipedia:Article titles. The second bullet point is useful for the content of the article. But for the title, it's the first bullet point that applies.
WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CRYSTAL and WP:V
The situation is developing rapidly, but we have a good number of press sources now using "Chelsea Manning" consistently, with some hold-outs still using "Bradley Manning".This is probably the most unfortunate aspect of this affair. Rather than holding their breath and seeing how things panned out, Morwen and David Gerard jumped the gun.
So, should we look into our crystal balls? No. We don't do that. It's what sources say now that we are concerned with. We don't try and predict what they are going to say a week or a month from now. We don't comment on how sources are shifting before our eyes and so we'd better get in early. If things change, things change. But we don't run ahead of other sources.
The press may have lauded "us" (without knowing "us" was just Morwen and David Gerard) for doing so in this case - but that's because they don't understand us. We are not a news agency. We don't lead. We follow.
Beyond WP:COMMONNAME: WP:CRITERIA
Further to WP:COMMONNAME, the actual guidance for choosing a good article title is at WP:CRITERIA. Of the "criteria" for a good article title, the two most pertinent to our discussion are:
- Recognizability: The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject will recognize.
- Naturalness:' The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles.
Both titles (Bradley Manning and Chelsea Manning satisfy the other three criteria.)
At this time, I don't think that "Chelsea Manning" has had enough time to become sufficiently associated with the subject for it to be the recognisable or natural title for the article. Certainly, not when the move occurred. That may change in time. But it is still too early.
Have patience. If Manning becomes more recognisable as Chelsea (and so Chelsea Manning becomes the most natural title for a reader to search for) then we'll move.
BLP
The issues brought up regarding BLP policy deal more with the content of the article, as opposed to the title. But I'll address them anyway and try where I can to put them in the context of a title discussion.
Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy.We are not dealing with any matters of privacy here (definitely not in the title). Manning has made known the intention to live as a woman. And Manning's history as a man is public knowledge. It is not a case of "outing" Manning. Indeed, Manning is known to most people as man and as "Bradley".
Due regard for trans people's privacy usually includes not mentioning birth names.This is dangerously close to WP:CENSOR. We can respect Manning's wishes but Wikipedia isn't censored by them.
Birth names are considered highly sensitive information, not to be shared lightly,...Manning's birth name isn't private information. It's well known and in the public domain. We are not telling any secrets when we say that Manning formerly went under the name of Bradley or when we have the article at Bradley Manning. She is known to the whole world by that name.
...a common tactic for anti-transgender vandals is "outing" someone with their old name and/or changing pronouns.Again, we're not "outing" Manning. And the claims that we are are beginning to sound hysterical.
But inability to protect the subject's privacy completely does not mean we should not make our best effort: we should go to the closest thing that is possible, and give Chelsea Manning primacy.Within the article, sure. Why not? But the title of the article has other considerations. We can write the article sensitively and respectfully. We can even assert that Manning's name is Chelsea, but that doesn't (immediately) alter what other people know her as. And article titles are geared towards what other people expect the article to be titled.
...or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.We're not spreading titillating rumours. Manning is most widely known by the name Bradley Manning. We're not spreading this. We can (and should) go some degree to countering this and educating people that she is now called Chelsea. But people are coming here looking for an article on Bradley Manning - and that's what determines the title. That may change in time - but I don't believe it has changed yet.
BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone [...] biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times.We can be fair. And indeed we should be. But we do not have to slavishly follow the desire's of a subject in every respect.
Sue Gardner's argument
Regarding Sue Gardner's argument, I have great sympathy for this position. I think it's very caring. At the same time, we are not the NHS. With argumentation like this, we're getting very close to trying to act as Manning's doctor. And losing sight over what we are: an encyclopaedia.
We can show dignity and sensitivity to the subjects of our articles. In fact, we must. But we cannot allow that to direct our decision making above everything else.
Our articles contain statements about living people that they don't like. They contain statements that hurt their feelings. Even statements that may cause them distress - even severe distress. But we're an encyclopaedia. We're not writing these things gratuitously. We're not writing them to cause distress. If we say in this case, oh we can't have the article as that title because it might disrupt her transition, where will it end?
If someone was the victim of a accident, can we not say their face was disfigured because they are known to be depressed over that? If someone has autism, should we not mention it because it causes them distress to be reminded that they are different? If someone was anorexic in the past, we really shouldn't say anything about their weight now because we might cause a recurrence?
We are not here to protect people. Neither are we here to attack people. We can show them dignity and respect. But we cannot hold Manning's hand and tell everyone to leave her alone while she transitions. That's not our job.
Furthermore, the nub of Sue's argument hangs on Wikipedia being a major site and the danger of Manning reading our supposed rejection of her requested name and/or gender characterisation. I don't believe that at this time Manning has access to a computer so this is not an immediate practical concern and may not be for several years or decades.
However, more specifically, Manning is conscious that people know her better as "Bradley Manning". His Lawyers have said, "There's a realization that most people know her as Bradley. Chelsea is a realist and understands."
So, fears of causing Manning unnecessary distress are misplaced. Manning "is a realist and understands". Should we not be also?
Compromise is not possible?
It is not an area that compromise is possible on - we have to pick one.I find this the most amazing aspect of the argument put forward by Morwen and David Gerard. It seems so "all-or-nothing" when that's not the case at all.
Despite so many accusation of "transphobia", there has been relatively (relatively!) little resistance to calling Manning "Chelsea" and to referring to her as "she" in article text. The question before us only relates only to what we title the article.
So, it's not all or nothing. We can easily have the article at Bradley Manning (since that is what most people know her as) and then explain in the text that her preferred name is Chelsea (and so that's what we'll call her).
Consequence of a revert
...to move it back to Bradley Manning would be seen as a political statement that they are wrong: that trans people are mentally ill, and/or are delusional.I find this ironic since it is already seen in the press as a political statement that we moved the article - and Wikipedia should not be making political statements of any kind. Morwen has played a particular part in that narrative as she has actively publicised the incident on social media and in the press, where she has categorised resistance to the move here as being "transphobic".
If there are consequences to moving the article back to Bradley Manning, it will be a consequence of Morwen and David Gerard's making. It is they who between them moved and then locked the article at Chelsea Manning without consensus. So please, don't put back on the community the consequence of your actions.
Finally, I'll quote this section from WP:TITLECHANGES (mainly because, throughout this discussion, questions of what is "right" have cropped up):
In discussing the appropriate title of an article, remember that the choice of title is not dependent on whether a name is "right" in a moral or political sense.--RA (✍) 02:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Addendum: The move as a breach of BLP
I've made this point in an ANI thread but was reluctant to make it her since it is not clear-cut. But since similarly uncertain arguments have been made as to why keeping the article as Bradley Manning was a breach of BLP policy, I'll explain here why I believe moving the article (and subsequent actions) was a breach of BLP policy.
BLP policy mandates that biographies be written "conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy". "[It] is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives". Furthermore, "BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone..."
Morwen and David played fast-and-loose with a BLP. The manner in which the move took place was not conservative, cautious or responsible. It turned discussion on this talk page into a circus. The move itself became subject of media attention. And the instigator of the move publicised her action and this discussion on social media and in the press.
David has claimed that BLP policy mandated that he move the page immediately. How so? What immediate threat to Manning's health or safety existed? What immediate threat existed to Wikipedia? Could we not have waited a week? Did you consider that by making a circus out of this, we might cause more harm to Manning than good?
Manning is not merely the subject of our article. She is not trans* heroine. She a young person, just 25-year-old, who last week was told she may not feel daylight on her skin until she is 60. And the very next day, Wikipedians are making a plaything out of her on these pages and making titillating news stories out of her travails.
How does that serve Manning's privacy? How does it treat Manning with dignity or respect? How is that conservative, cautious, responsible, or dispassionate? --RA (✍) 10:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Comments on retort
- Agree wholeheartedly with this summary. I especially want to highlight the points surrounding WP:CRITERIA; the "naturalness" and "recognizability" points of the policy are especially pertinent here. Even as some sources shift over to the use of the name "Chelsea Manning" (and these sources have the luxury, as we would in the body of the article, of appending something like "formerly known as Bradley Manning" on first reference), there will be a bit of lag before the average reader will recognize Chelsea Manning as the person they previously knew as Bradley Manning. -- tariqabjotu 02:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed with this summary as well, also concerned about abuse of admin powers, like I mentioned before what is going to stop something like this from happening again? To the supporters: If we had just followed policy and the way we do things then there is a good chance this article would have been renamed Chelsea anyways right? My view: At least this would have been the right thing to do, Wikipedia would not have made the news and less drama. Right now im still for keeping the article's name Bradley as WP:IDENTITY and WP:BLP as said here do not apply when it comes to article titles and what the overall common name is. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
When all is said and done
When this is all over and a decision is made can both sides we agree to not bring this to a WP:Move review? A move review would be a nightmare for a number of reasons some being WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:STICK to name two. I am also sure there are at lease a handful of editors here who do not want to see this dragged out any longer than it needs to be. Does this sound good to people here? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- There shouldn't be any "sides". Nearly 300 people have registered an opinion here, and it would be hard to get all of them to agree not to file a move review (to say nothing of getting those who didn't participate to do the same). That being said, I hope any attempt at a move review would be shut down; with three people closing this discussion together, it would be impossible to make a case that the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI wasn't followed or that they missed something. -- tariqabjotu 03:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Opposing views then, I understand it would be hard but it is worth stating here for the record - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Interpretation of MOS:IDENTITY
The relevant language in the guideline say that:
- When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself
My question: is a dispute the same thing as an non-conensus on a Wikipedia article talk page, or is the word dispute referring to a verifiable dispute between reliable sources?
Second Question: Is there a verifiable dispute between reliable sources, or is this dispute purely a Wikipedia issue? Belorn (talk) 09:11, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Typically, a "dispute" means a dispute between Wikipedians but involving sources. Not just opinion. Hence, the direction is to resolve dispute using policy on striking a balance between differing reliable sources.
- There's a verifiable dispute between reliable sources. Sources exist that discuss how some sources use "Chelsea" and some use "Bradley" and that discuss the trend (or non-trend) of moving from one to the other (or back). Some are linked on this page. --RA (✍) 10:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for an excellent answer regarding the interpretation, and for pointing out that there is a source linked on this talk page regarding a dispute between RSs. Is the source/s the USA today article? If there is more, please link them as it can be a bit hard to notice/find them as the talk page is right now. Since I have not created a specific opinion yet, reading such sources is really useful. Belorn (talk) 10:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Slate blog post about pronouns here
This is fairly recent coverage of the issue as it pertains to this Wikipedia article.
Better reference for war logs leak
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The 2nd paragraph of the lead section says Manning leaked, among other things, the Afghan War logs and Iraq War logs. I think Manning being the source of the war logs leak was long assumed, but it wasn't confirmed until Manning's admission on page 16 of his 29 January 2013 statement to the court.
The only citation currently given for the entire set of leaked materials is "Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. For Manning's referring to the documents, see Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010." Well, those sources don't seem to support the portion of the claim pertaining to the war logs. The latter reference is a Wired article that makes no mention of the war logs; it only discusses the Baghdad video, the Granai video, the 2008 Army report blasting Wikileaks, and the diplomatic cables. Leigh & Harding's book likewise, as far as I can tell from skimming the relevant chapter, doesn't explicitly tie Manning to the war logs, either.
So, I feel we should modify the placement and content of the existing reference so that it doesn't apply to the war logs, and then use Manning's own statement as the reference for the war logs—i.e., change this:
The material included videos of the [[July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike]] and the 2009 [[Granai airstrike]] in Afghanistan; 250,000 [[United States diplomatic cables leak|United States diplomatic cables]]; and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the [[Iraq War documents leak|Iraq War logs]] and [[Afghan War documents leak|Afghan War logs]].<ref name=Leigh2011p194/> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. * For Manning's referring to the documents, see [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak/ Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010].</ref>
to this:
The material included videos of the [[July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike]] and the 2009 [[Granai airstrike]] in Afghanistan; 250,000 [[United States diplomatic cables leak|United States diplomatic cables]];<ref name=Leigh2011p194/><ref>Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010</ref> and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the [[Iraq War documents leak|Iraq War logs]] and [[Afghan War documents leak|Afghan War logs]].<ref name=ProvidenceStatement>{{cite web|url=https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_zC44SBaZPoQmJUYURBUnBycUk/edit?pli=1 |title=Statement in Support of Providence Inquiry |date=29 January 2013}}</ref> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211.</ref>
Then, in the "Granai airstrike" section, replace the first reference with <ref name=ProvidenceStatement/>
.
—mjb (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is everyone ok with this change? If there is no opposition in the next couple of days, I will add it to the article. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 15:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be keen on that because it adds unnecessary footnotes to the lead. (The article is a GA and I was hoping to get it to FA, which is why I'm concerned about style issues.) I didn't quite follow Mjb's point about the need for an additional source, but if there is a need, the sources are bundled, so an extra source can be added to the bundle. The first footnote (ref name=Leigh2011p194) can be removed because it repeats the second. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for considering the request. The placement of references is flexible, of course, but I don't see how adding a reference is unnecessary. The problem is that there currently seem to be no references which actually support the claim that Manning leaked the war logs; the ones given only deal with other leaked material. If there's a better all-encompassing source to use, let's use it, but in a BLP we shouldn't say she leaked the war logs, and provide nothing to back it up. —mjb (talk) 22:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The lead is adequately sourced. The rest of the sources for that point are in the body of the article; not every detail in the lead has to be sourced. See WP:LEAD. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've added an additional source here to the lead. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning addressed as a "she"?
Manning was born a male, is a male and will continue to be a male despite his so-called "gender identity" problems. It's ridiculous that the whole article addresses him as a she rather than a he, as it should be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PikkoroDaimao (talk • contribs) 09:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, no trans-phobia there at all... NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is clear on this issue, take a look. U-Mos (talk) 10:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
His gender changeover occurred after the important events surrounding him took place. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration? Also,I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but his name is Bradley Manning and he should be addressed as a man.You can't just put the trans-phobic label on everyone with this opinion. (MightySaiyan (talk) 10:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC))
- Actually, yes, I can put the trans-phobic label on everyone with that opinion.
- "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but John Doe is a man and he should not be allowed to marry another man" is unambiguously homophobic.
- "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but John Doe is a black man and he should not be allowed to marry a white woman" is unambiguously racist.
- Please explain how your argument is not unambiguously transphobic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I do not share MightySaiyan's view on this, but the analogous transphobic comment to your examples would be "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but Bradley Manning is a man and should not be able to live as a woman." That's not at all what was said, MightySaiyan was talking about Manning's legal name and his views on what that should mean for the wording on an encyclopedic article. Such inflammatory responses to that are helping no one. U-Mos (talk) 14:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- This discussion has been had UMPTEEN times on this page already. Please drop the stick, both of you. Focus on content. The article currently uses "she", and will likely continue to do so unless MOS:IDENTITY has changed. Thus, there's not much more to say here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No need to change MOS:IDENTITY, Manning is verifiably a man as evidenced by his admission into the US Army as a man and his incarceration in a male prison. His name is verifiably "Bradley" Manning as evidenced by the fact that the military and the courts still refer to him as "Bradley", not "Chelsea". And in regards to the Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View, the non-neutral bias is coming from those who insist on calling him a "she" and using his non-legal name as the title of the article. He is neither a "she" nor is his name "Chelsea". When his name is legally changed and he starts hormone replacement therapy, at that point the article should be updated to reflect those changes. But at the current time it is obvious that the fervor to change his name and call him a "she" is driven by editors with a non-neutral agenda. Martylunsford (talk) 02:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Do we have evidence she was born as a he? Any medical assessment of genitalia and chromosomes at the moment of birth (from reputable sources, of course) ? Vexorian (talk) 16:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Just a comment: I don't think we should call this transphobia. Transphobia should be when people beat up transsexuals and discriminate against them, as some sort of evidence of actual animosity. I think there should be some other category of "trans-skepticism" where a person can decide he doesn't believe the surgery and lifestyle changes really change what sex someone is, or doesn't want to stop using an old name or pronoun in certain circumstances, when there is no animosity. Much as someone can be firmly unbelieving of Islam but not Islamophobic. Wnt (talk) 22:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Even if you would rename it "trans-skepticism", a trans person being miss-gendered will perceive it as discrimination. Vexorian (talk) 02:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Helpful input from Jimbo Wales
Jimbo Wales has commented on the case being discussed on User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Transphobia_on_Wikipedia (permanent), stating that "I support the move and change" (to Chelsea Manning), that "We ought to very strongly defer to how people identify themselves, but for various pedantic reasons, some editors insist on calling people by names that they very strongly reject. I consider that a BLP issue of some seriousness" and that "The point is that when something new happens, we update Wikipedia." Josh Gorand (talk) 11:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- ...and? Are you saying that we should follow his holiness' wishes? --benlisquareT•C•E 11:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Jimbo Wales and Sue Gardner have both recommended the current title, and cited good reasons for that. It seems clear there isn't a snowball's chance for this article being moved back. Josh Gorand (talk) 11:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Who is this Jimbo Wales guy? Do I need to know him? Is he a relevant person? Why is his opinion more important than others'? I bet he doesn't even bench press.
Who is this Sue Gardner lady? Do I need to know her? Is she a relevant person? Why is her opinion more important than others'? I bet she doesn't even bench press.
Why do I need to be concerned about these two people so much? Why are you repeatedly telling me that these people are so important? --benlisquareT•C•E 11:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Who is this Jimbo Wales guy? Do I need to know him? Is he a relevant person? Why is his opinion more important than others'? I bet he doesn't even bench press.
- Josh Gorand has been told at least a half-dozen times now that appeal to authority (and WP:Argumentum ad Jimbonem in particular) are not valid arguments to deploy in a debate, esp a contentious one. Mr Wales' and Ms. Gardner's opinions carry no more and no less weight than any of our own. Continuing to bring up a false assertion that their opinions must be weighted more when we clearly do not do such a thing could at some point be considered tendentious editing. Tarc (talk) 12:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have partially quoted Jimbo with this addition to an essay "The overwhelming majority of sources in 2006 described Pluto as a planet. The majority of sources called Victoria Beckham by her maiden name Victoria Adams at the time of her marriage. The majority of sources described East Timor as part of Indonesia in 2002. The point is that Wikipedia content should be updated.Pass a Method talk 12:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Jimbo's opinion is his opinion; within this discussion, we should accept his opinion. I am not saying that we should ignore what Jimbo has to say. We should take his points into account, but with equal weight to everyone else's opinion. My point is that comments such as "It seems clear there isn't a snowball's chance for this article being moved back" are counterproductive. --benlisquareT•C•E 12:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have partially quoted Jimbo with this addition to an essay "The overwhelming majority of sources in 2006 described Pluto as a planet. The majority of sources called Victoria Beckham by her maiden name Victoria Adams at the time of her marriage. The majority of sources described East Timor as part of Indonesia in 2002. The point is that Wikipedia content should be updated.Pass a Method talk 12:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- His opinion should account no more or less than anyone else's. He is just one editor, with access to the same policies and guidelines we have (most drafted completely independent of him). And, frankly, I read his comment as more of a "it's going to happen eventually, so what's done and is done" type of remark. I'm curious how he would have felt had the move request occurred with the article being at Bradley Manning. -- tariqabjotu 12:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Jimbo's opinion is in principle worth just as much as anyone else's, but in practice it's worth more because the quality of his arguments is usually a lot higher compared to that of a random editor. That's why a notification here that Jimbo has made a comment on this issue is worthwhile. It's quite similar to many physicists wanting to read any new article by Hawking, just because the author is Hawking, while they would not have done so if the author had been John Doe and the article title had been the same. Count Iblis (talk) 13:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- We all have four legs around here, I'm afraid. Either Jimbo is the hands-on chief from ~2005 or he's the benevolent symbolic leader of 2013. You can't pick and choose which Jimbo Era to visit like you're Doctor Who in his TARDIS. Tarc (talk) 13:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Jimbo's opinion is on the level of Newyorkbrad's. Someone we generally respect as a long standing community member who is often insightful and has more than once moved the project in a direction. However, we don't treat Jimbo as the final say in all things for two reasons: 1) Because this is a community project owned by no-one except the collective editors who donated their material under a certain license, and 2) Because Jimbo himself chose and instructed the community not to treat him as such.--v/r - TP 13:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
I wrote above that Wales and Gardner, who are knowledgable editors at this project, both have recommended that we use the current title, Jimbo citing BLP, Gardner arguing very convincingly citing MOS:IDENTITY. The point was to make readers of this talk page aware of a relevant discussion of the issue at hand where Jimbo and others offered valuable comments. Then we immediately get comments like "Who is this Jimbo Wales guy?" and "Are you saying that we should follow his holiness' wishes?" and even that their opinions on the issue "are not valid arguments" (sic!) and "I bet he doesn't even bench press", which look to me like a string of personal attacks on Jimbo (and Gardner). They are entitled to weigh in like everyone else, especially as they cite good rationales for their opinions. The snowball comment didn't refer to either of them, but rather to the fact that so many users agree BLP is the central issue at hand, and that most users who cite policy-based arguments oppose moving this article anywhere and support the current name. --Josh Gorand (talk) 13:34, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would suggest that, while many users quite understandably see this as a separate issue to a name change upon marriage, or renaming the Millennium Stadium or whatever else covered by WP:COMMONNAME, the situation is that policy does not. You can say "I see this as a BLP issue", but there's nothing in BLP that suggests not updating an article name in such cases is a violation. You can say MOS:IDENTITY suggests that the article title should reflect the subject's wishes, but it doesn't say it outright. This case sheds light on that omission, and it's a positive thing that it has done so. So instead of saying the article should be at Chelsea Manning because of implications and interpretations and what many people would consider to be "right", get the policy clarified so it reflects the views of these senior members and directly and clearly explains what is "right" in such cases. U-Mos (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You need to be aware that this is not the first time you have made similar comments, and given that in the past you have repeatedly made appeal to authority arguments, other people are well within their rights to suspect that you're trying to make another similar point. If your behaviour wasn't like it was in the past, perhaps you wouldn't have gotten such replies. We are often told to assume good faith, but I have seen the same authority-pandering rhetoric repeated at least fifteen times from you; would you really think that I'd still be able to treat you in a completely different manner? It's kind of like The boy who cried wolf. --benlisquareT•C•E 14:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The editor is perfectly entitled to put the views of others before us here, in debate. It is not some fraudulent rhetorical practice - it is perfectly legitimate and an essential part of most good debate. You may be confusing the editor's behaviour with the logical fallacy, appeal to authority. I don't see Josh appealing to authority there, at all.
- Do not attack editors for engaging in on-topic free speech on an article talk page. If I see you tell people to shut up on an article talk page, ever again, I'll be asking for you to be indefinitely topic banned from article talk pages. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You are getting way out of line, mate. You have no reason to accuse me of "telling people to shut up", or threaten me with punitive action when I have done nothing wrong. You're essentially popping down into a discussion half-way through its progress (this discussion has been going on for many days now), ignoring everything that has occurred prior, and are making assumptions based on what you think is going on. This user has had a long history within this discussion of making inappropriate comments; yes, users are expected to assume good faith, but this has gone on over and over, and I honestly have little remaining patience. This particular instance might not have been the case, but it has happened in the past, which contributes to my earlier misjudgment. This user has made comments on this talk page, at ANI, at WT:MOS, on the German Wikipedia, and many other places of the provocative nature, linking Sue Gardner's position within the WMF to some kind of victory. Comments along the lines of "Sue Gardner agrees with me, why are we still discussing this? This debate is over!" are provocative in nature, and have appeared multiple times.
- Regarding Josh's statement "The snowball comment didn't refer to either of them", his original snowball comment wasn't specific or clear to begin with. He has gone "oh, but that wasn't what I meant! I honestly meant ____ instead!", which happens all the time and is somewhat understandable, but that doesn't mean that I was wrong to have interpreted that sentence in a different way. His clarification came after his original statement. To me, it sounded like he was making another similar comment like the ones he made before. In hindsight, he should have made his words more clear. Surely you're not going to say that this is a crime?
- Not to mention, my patience for this user has already been eroded by the various personal attacks this person has made earlier as well (everybody who does not agree with his opinion is "transphobic"). This user is unable to accept that people may have different viewpoints, and since that I have a different upbringing to this user, I cannot share his exact viewpoint, based on how I've grown up, what my local societal environment is like, and so forth. That's not to say that I cannot accept his point of view - I accept that he feels strongly for transgender issues. Everybody here has different points of view, and this is why we are discussing right now. I have not made any comments specifically shaming the points that pro-transgender people make. What I cannot accept is that he is adamantly unwilling to accept that there are people out there who do not match his walled garden view of the world.
- Ignoring the "transphobe" personal attacks for now, since this isn't central to what we are supposed to be discussing (and has already been discussed to death; see ANI and this talk page's archives), you cannot deny that this user has made numerous appeal to authority arguments in the past; if you bother to look down the rabbit hole, you will find them. Nowhere have I ever told anyone to "shut up", or driven people away to stop them from sharing their ideas. The most that I have done is express my dissatisfaction for the comments of some of the people here, that I find unnecessary. You should not be threatening me when you aren't making heads and tails of what has been going on for the past few days, and understanding how other editors actually feel. Please cease your confrontational attitude. --benlisquareT•C•E 17:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- User:benlisquare has a long history of making personal attacks and causing disruption on this page. His recent personal attacks against Jimbo Wales and Sue Gardner are completely unacceptable. The warning was completely justified. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Josh Gorand, I do not recommend responding to accusations of personal attacks by making further accusations of personal attacks. That just bogs us down in battlegrounding. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- User:benlisquare has a long history of making personal attacks and causing disruption on this page. His recent personal attacks against Jimbo Wales and Sue Gardner are completely unacceptable. The warning was completely justified. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Please don't discuss other editors' motives on this talk page. As far as I've seen, Josh has stopped. Could you please do the same? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email)
- I'm fine with anything. It's just that your threat kind of ticked me off a little. --benlisquareT•C•E 17:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're right, it was inappropriate, and I apologise. Also, I haven't read all of the above, but will do so before I resume barking orders. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Jimbo is just another editor for this discussion; however, his opinion is highly relevant because his volunteer job with Wikipedia involves a whole lot of dealing specifically with BLP issues, i.e. the famous people he meets. So he actually knows a lot more about, and has a lot more experience in, these issues than a random editor would. The same applies to Sue Gardner. Everyone here has four legs, but some have run a lot more marathons on them - David Gerard (talk) 15:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Four legs good, two legs better.Two kinds of pork (talk) 15:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- His opinion means nothing alone, we go by something called a consensus here on Wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, but has he legally changed his name? Has he undergone reassignment surgery? Could he (or anyone) identify as Sparkle Night, the magical Unicorn from Grey Gully and their wikipedia article change according? WeldNeck (talk) 22:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your comment comparing the article subject to a unicorn constitutes a violation of the WP:BLP policy. Josh Gorand (talk) 12:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
MOS: Informing the reader
Despite the MOS guideline, or in this case because of the guideline, the he/she usage is certainly going to confuse a fair number of readers coming to this article. Perhaps that might change over time, certainly if Chelsea becomes the vernacular instead of Bradley. I removed the gender pronouns from the top,of the article until the part where It states Manning's "coming out". Would it be appropriate to add a reference to the MOS to let the reader know why "she" is being used instead of "he" instead of just leaving some of them scratching their heads?Two kinds of pork (talk) 15:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think an explanation would be very helpful. It would explain the topic so as to further public understanding. We discussed this previously (you might want to dig around in the archive), but some editors expressed concern that it would draw undue attention to the subject's gender identity as if to make her seem non-normal. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- In general, I think there is no need to extend the MOS for this case. Although discussion of changing the MOS should take place on the MOS talk page. —me_and 15:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Suggestion re personal pronouns
I personally find it very confusing that all personal pronouns have been swapped from male to female, especially those detailing Pvt. Manning's childhood as a little boy. Can we make a consensus to label Pvt Manning as a boy up until the announcement to be female? I think a gender switch halfway through makes a little more sense than whitewashing everything as "she". thoriyan tlk - ctrbs 17:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Furthermore to this suggestion, Pvt Manning herself "requested, from this day forward to be referred to by the feminine pronouns" (per the original press release). It wouldn't be a violation of her wishes to refer to her by the male pronoun before Aug 23/13. thoriyan tlk - ctrbs 18:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
I find a problem in making a change of gender retrospective. It's all very well for a person to request, as Manning did, to be referred to by the feminine pronouns "from this day forward". It's the retrospective part that is problematical. Another famous transsexual, Christine Jorgensen described herself as a child as "frail, blond, introverted little boy who ran from fistfights and rough-and-tumble games". The author Jan Morris transitioned to a female identity in her mid forties but before that date, had married a woman and had five children by her. Peter Wherrett lived about 70 years as a man, marrying and divorcing three times and having children and grandchildren. For the last three years of life, Wherrett lived as a woman called Pip, before dying of prostate cancer at the age of 72. Prospective identification as a woman is not a problem; it's the retrospective part that is problematic. Michael Glass (talk) 03:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- The New York Times specified that it would now use "her" but would keep using "him" when referring to past events. I think this would be the best solution. IMHO, the retroactive use of "her" and "she" in the narrative, when referring to events which took place when Manning was still widely known as a "he", is very unfortunate : I don't think it does a great service to transgendered people. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 09:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using the male pronoun to refer to events when Manning was regarded as male seems sensible.--Toddy1 (talk) 09:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Another statement from Manning's lawyer
On August 26, 2013, Manning's attorney David Edward Coombs and the Private Manning Support Network (formerly the Bradley Manning Support Network) jointly posted what they call "Additional clarification on PVT Manning's request." http://www.bradleymanning.org/featured/announcing-the-private-manning-support-network It reads in part:
- "While PVT Manning wants supporters to acknowledge and respect her gender identity as she proceeds into the post-trial state of her life, she also expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances. These instances include any reference to the trial, in legal documents, in communication with the government, in the current petition to the White House calling for clemency, and on the envelope of letters written to her by supporters. She also expects that many old photos and graphics will remain in use for the time being." (Boldface in original.)
It's unclear whether PVT Manning's expectation about continuing use of male name and pronouns represents her preference or merely an acknowledgement that old usages will persist. JohnValeron (talk) 18:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, I think it's rather clear. Manning expects male pronouns to be used because that is the reality of how the topic has been discussed in these contexts. I don't see any basis that Manning has changed her preferences based on the above statement. I, JethroBT drop me a line 18:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- GASP! Where is the army of editors jumping on the chance to go in and change all the pronouns in the articles? It looks like NONE of these changes have been made! Could it be that the users who were so quick to make the changes to the article when Manning "announced" he was a woman (as if that just makes it so) gave less than one flying fuck what Manning wants or expects, and were just looking for an opportunity to push their ridiculous advocacy position on a neutral encyclopedia? TUM TUM TUMMMMM! The plot thickens! Clinton (talk)
- Cjarbo2, please be aware that some users have cited what they believe to be policy arguments for the move to Chelsea, and that not all users may be "advocates" for social change. CaseyPenk (talk) 23:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- GASP! Where is the army of editors jumping on the chance to go in and change all the pronouns in the articles? It looks like NONE of these changes have been made! Could it be that the users who were so quick to make the changes to the article when Manning "announced" he was a woman (as if that just makes it so) gave less than one flying fuck what Manning wants or expects, and were just looking for an opportunity to push their ridiculous advocacy position on a neutral encyclopedia? TUM TUM TUMMMMM! The plot thickens! Clinton (talk)
Surely though (notwithstanding my statement below), Manning's own statement puts this entire debate to bed? If he says that he expects male pronouns to be used, then we can take it as implicit acceptance that his Wikipedia article will still refer to him as "he" and "Bradley". --The Historian (talk) 18:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- She asked for respect and acknowledgement of of her gender identity but said that she expected that the name Bradley and male pronoun would be used in various legal contexts. That is not inconsistent with her original statement asking people to use the female pronoun and new name except in official mail to the prison. I fail to see how this is earth-shattering or in any way determinative.AgnosticAphid talk 19:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Interesting. It does take the wind out of the sails of the "must use female names/terms now!" side of the debate a tad, but in terms of having a practical effect on the Wikipedia it probably amounts to little, since we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways. Tarc (talk) 19:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is that some people already are going by what he subject's personal preferences are. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The idea that, as Tarc puts it, "we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways," is downright bizarre. Why did Manning's Wikipedia article require an emergency sex-change operation in the first place? It wasn't because Manning underwent hormone therapy or surgery to alter his gender. It was solely because Manning, through his lawyer's appearance on the Today show, expressed a preference, and Wikipedia's doctors of political correctness sprang into action. JohnValeron (talk) 22:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- A person's gender identity is not conditional on completing the process of hormone therapy and surgery. Bearcat (talk) 22:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The idea that, as Tarc puts it, "we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways," is downright bizarre. Why did Manning's Wikipedia article require an emergency sex-change operation in the first place? It wasn't because Manning underwent hormone therapy or surgery to alter his gender. It was solely because Manning, through his lawyer's appearance on the Today show, expressed a preference, and Wikipedia's doctors of political correctness sprang into action. JohnValeron (talk) 22:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is that some people already are going by what he subject's personal preferences are. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, quite frankly, not everyone subscribes to that notion, and it is quite wrong of you and a handful of others to push your ideology onto people who hold a different opinion on the matter. There is simply no actual person named "Chelsea Manning" here. What we have is a man named "Bradley Manning" who wants to be called by this other name (and awhile ago it was reportedly "Breanna") and referred to as "she". That is all. That is the reality that the article should reflect, the policy of WP:COMMONNAME. Bradley Manning was a solider in the United States military. Bradley Manning was caught passing classified intel to unauthorized parties, convicted, and sentenced. After that, Bradley Manning decided to be called "Chelsea". That is how the flow of the article should be, these are all things that a man named Bradley Manning did, you can't just flick a switch and rewrite history to say "Chelsea Manning was convicted of violating the Espionage Act..." and so on. That just isn't historically accurate or truthful. When and if he legally changes his name, that is when the transition process of the article should begin. That all was simply way too soon. Tarc (talk) 23:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, as I've pointed out before, the problem with insisting on completion of the medical or legal processes as the standard for recognition of a transgender person's new identity is that those things are covered by privacy laws. Nobody but her and her lawyers has a right to access her legal records; nobody but her and her doctors has a right to access her medical records — which means that you're insisting on a standard which no reliable source will ever be able to properly verify whether or when she's successfully met them. It's an unattainable standard which a transgender person can never actually meet unless her privacy is consensually or non-consensually violated in a way that would still be an inadmissible source (e.g. a tabloid stealing her name change documents; somebody actually publishing an unauthorized photograph of her in the communal shower.) That's why it's not conditional on completing the process: there's no way that her completion of the process can ever be properly verified. Bearcat (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Tarc &John Valeron, you both appear to be pushing a fringe view which rejects the medical consensus. The position which Bearcat describes ert to gender identity is the consensus position of the medical profession: WPATH's SOC notes that:
- "gender dysphoria—broadly defined as discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth."[18]
- You are of course quite entitled to disagree, and there are many fringe views on these matters. However, if you want to misuse these discussions to push your own theories about transgenderism and the process of gender reassignment, please have the courtesy not to denounce those with mainstream views as pushers of ideology or "political correctness".
- If you insist on approaching the biographies of trans people with your own set of definitions, and insist on applying a standard which (as Bearcat illustrates) is unattainable, you are effectively demanding that Wikipedia should permanently reject the identities of trans people. That is a blatantly ideological position. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Tarc &John Valeron, you both appear to be pushing a fringe view which rejects the medical consensus. The position which Bearcat describes ert to gender identity is the consensus position of the medical profession: WPATH's SOC notes that:
- Well, as I've pointed out before, the problem with insisting on completion of the medical or legal processes as the standard for recognition of a transgender person's new identity is that those things are covered by privacy laws. Nobody but her and her lawyers has a right to access her legal records; nobody but her and her doctors has a right to access her medical records — which means that you're insisting on a standard which no reliable source will ever be able to properly verify whether or when she's successfully met them. It's an unattainable standard which a transgender person can never actually meet unless her privacy is consensually or non-consensually violated in a way that would still be an inadmissible source (e.g. a tabloid stealing her name change documents; somebody actually publishing an unauthorized photograph of her in the communal shower.) That's why it's not conditional on completing the process: there's no way that her completion of the process can ever be properly verified. Bearcat (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, quite frankly, not everyone subscribes to that notion, and it is quite wrong of you and a handful of others to push your ideology onto people who hold a different opinion on the matter. There is simply no actual person named "Chelsea Manning" here. What we have is a man named "Bradley Manning" who wants to be called by this other name (and awhile ago it was reportedly "Breanna") and referred to as "she". That is all. That is the reality that the article should reflect, the policy of WP:COMMONNAME. Bradley Manning was a solider in the United States military. Bradley Manning was caught passing classified intel to unauthorized parties, convicted, and sentenced. After that, Bradley Manning decided to be called "Chelsea". That is how the flow of the article should be, these are all things that a man named Bradley Manning did, you can't just flick a switch and rewrite history to say "Chelsea Manning was convicted of violating the Espionage Act..." and so on. That just isn't historically accurate or truthful. When and if he legally changes his name, that is when the transition process of the article should begin. That all was simply way too soon. Tarc (talk) 23:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is not a fringe opinion, it is a very real one that is tied to the rejection of political correctness. I give no credence to Bearcat's "medical records are private therefore we just have to go by what the subject says", it's just too absurd to even address. Like it or not, America is fairly evenly divided between liberal and conservative ideologies, and this one of mine happens to fall on the conservative side of things. Bradley Manning simply doesn't become a woman just because he says so. You can deride that as "fringe" if that's what makes you comfortable with yourself, I really don't plan to spend much time haranguing you on why that's incorrect. But from a Wikipedia policy standpoint, we're still at the simple place and time where Manning is still regarded as a male, and generally addresses him as such. WP:COMMONNAME and all that. This whole gender affair should be consigned to a few paragraphs of his bio, maybe even a spinout article if there's enough material. Keep in mind that the primary notability here is a soldier convicted of violating the Espionage Act and about to serve a 35-year term in Ft. Leavenworth. Note that I never plan to edit-war or act tendentiously or attack other editors, I'm just working on moving the discussion here in the way I feel it should go. If the Move Request and other issues do not go the way I wish them to, I will be of course disappointed but will alo consider the matter settled. Unlike some around here, I actually respect consensus. Tarc (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- As I feared, Tarc. You reject the medical consensus as "political correctness" and proclaim your conservative ideology. And yet you denounce others for pushing what you call an ideology. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is not a fringe opinion, it is a very real one that is tied to the rejection of political correctness. I give no credence to Bearcat's "medical records are private therefore we just have to go by what the subject says", it's just too absurd to even address. Like it or not, America is fairly evenly divided between liberal and conservative ideologies, and this one of mine happens to fall on the conservative side of things. Bradley Manning simply doesn't become a woman just because he says so. You can deride that as "fringe" if that's what makes you comfortable with yourself, I really don't plan to spend much time haranguing you on why that's incorrect. But from a Wikipedia policy standpoint, we're still at the simple place and time where Manning is still regarded as a male, and generally addresses him as such. WP:COMMONNAME and all that. This whole gender affair should be consigned to a few paragraphs of his bio, maybe even a spinout article if there's enough material. Keep in mind that the primary notability here is a soldier convicted of violating the Espionage Act and about to serve a 35-year term in Ft. Leavenworth. Note that I never plan to edit-war or act tendentiously or attack other editors, I'm just working on moving the discussion here in the way I feel it should go. If the Move Request and other issues do not go the way I wish them to, I will be of course disappointed but will alo consider the matter settled. Unlike some around here, I actually respect consensus. Tarc (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, we're arguing from unequal positions; the article should never have been moved without having this discussion first. So we started this race with your "side", as it were, already a lap ahead. So me arguing...or "denouncing" to borrow your term...is just trying to get back on equal footing. Tarc (talk) 04:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- We're not going to start asking homeopaths if an article on alternative medicine labelled medicine should be moved. There are no sides here, because you haven't qualified for the race; you are rejecting medical consensus in the name of some perceived right to have your opinions supersede fact. There isn't really much room for debate here. Amitabho Chattopadhyay (talk) 05:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, we're arguing from unequal positions; the article should never have been moved without having this discussion first. So we started this race with your "side", as it were, already a lap ahead. So me arguing...or "denouncing" to borrow your term...is just trying to get back on equal footing. Tarc (talk) 04:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
She has asked in very clear terms that "starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun." The new comment just recognises that sources using her former name will still exist. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, this just clarifies to those who want to correspond with her that they may have to use "Bradley" to get mail to her and legally the case against her is also in that name. Additionally many supporters have pictures and posters displaying the Bradley name. This doesn't change what the article is one bit from its present appearance although I'm sure the same posters will continue to argue until forced to accept consensus affirming Chelsea as the title and she/her as the commonsense and respectful pronouns. Sportfan5000 (talk) 04:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
![]() | It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Chelsea Manning. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |
"...expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances...These instances include any reference to the trial" This is clear cut. Pronouns and name usage must be reverted now regarding Bradley Manning in his pre-female-announcement life. I request that the page be edited so that the male pronouns are used before Bradley's announcement. I also request that the page use the name Bradley before his announcement. IFreedom1212 (talk) 19:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I somehow read the statement like three times and missed the apparent meaning of the "reference to the trial" part of it. It's true that maybe as Tarc said it "takes the wind out of the sails" of the one side to some degree. But really, before wasn't your position that what the person themselves wanted wasn't relevant? Do you suddenly think that we should defer to the subject's wishes? How does this statement change things, really? It doesn't really address the larger question of whether it is in fact accurate to use female pronouns in this situation, a question about which there can be a reasonable difference of opinion. AgnosticAphid talk 20:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Follow-up: It's also ambiguous whether "expects to be referred to as Bradley" means "wants to be referred to as Bradley" or "realizes people will refer to her as Bradley," especially in light of her apparent further comment that she is a "realist" and "understands," discussed in the "when bradley becomes chelsea" section below. AgnosticAphid talk 16:35, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Information from Manning's lawyer about pronouns and the photograph
I've obtained clarification of Manning's statement today from her lawyer, David Coombs, which I'm sharing with his permission. Regarding the pronoun, he wrote that the female pronoun should be used only for post-announcement material. I also asked about the current main photograph, and he said that Chelsea is proud of the photograph and would want it to be used until a better one becomes available.
I don't think we should rush to change the pronouns just yet. We should decide on the title first, for one thing. But I'm posting this so that we know what the lawyer's and Manning's preferences are. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:12, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think this carries weight to those who reply here saying "Well this is what manning wants so...." but thanks Slim for the clarification. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- For future reference, the "current main photograph" is File:Bradley Manning US Army.jpg ("MANNING, BRADLEY PFC HEAD AND SHOULDERS 4-26-2012.jpg"). This is the US Army photo of PFC Manning in uniform in front of a US flag, made available by his lawyer, David Coombs. -- ToE 17:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- My personal interpretation of the statement would lead me to the conclusion that "change all pronouns/names in events prior to August 22, 2013 to male/Bradley && differentiate between Chelsea/Bradley on events post August 22, in addition to restoring the title to Bradley" would be the neutral, proper way of interpreting it. (And I think it could be valid. But that's just me...) - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 01:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
WP should be taking a consistent approach, not treating individual subjects according to their requests (or what are interpreted as their requests).
This is useful evidence that the guidance at WP:MOSIDENTITY may be wrong-headed, but that's a discussion to be had there. Formerip (talk) 11:15, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Food for thought
If reliable sources report on Manning in a way that is seemingly or actually transphobic, should we do the same? CaseyPenk (talk) 18:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
I do apologise about banging on about this, but Wikipedia:COMMONNAME does say this: "[Wikipedia] prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change." Since the majority of reliable sources stick with "Bradley" (for instance the BBC does so), then we are obliged to do so too. I note with, as far as I can see, Wikipedia:MOS doesn't seem to say anything on the matter. It should also be noted that Wikipedia:COMMONNAME derives from Wikipedia:TITLE. which describes itself as a Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia:MOS is described as a "guideline", so therefore, Wikipedia:COMMONNAME trumps Wikipedia:MOS twice - Wikipedia:MOS doesn't discuss article titles at all, whilst Wikipedia:COMMONNAME does, and secondly, Wikipedia:COMMONNAME is an official policy, whilst Wikipedia:MOS is not, so Wikipedia:COMMONNAME is therefore more important, more authoritative than, and deserves more weight than, Wikipedia:MOS --The Historian (talk) 18:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is at the crux of the debate. Some have said (notably Jimbo), that there is a systemic bias issue at play here. What's not clear to me is, should Wikipedia document and represent such systemic bias, or take a normative stance against it? This isn't easy, and requires editorial judgement (again, Jimbo made this claim) - tackling systemic bias is very hard, especially for an encyclopedia presumably written only on the basis of sources. Nonetheless, we aren't here to right great wrongs. If wikipedia was written in the 1910s, we would probably have had categories for "Negro writers" and so on - even if those creating the 1910s wikipedia felt that those words were archaic (see http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=negro+writer&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=). There's a continuum between "done in a way that addresses systemic bias", "progressive", and "activist". Where should we be, and what goes too far? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
And my point is that since WP:COMMONNAME trumps the MOS, and since WP:COMMONNAME dictates that we use the more recognisable name (Bradley, in this case), this article MUST be moved to Bradley Manning. --The Historian (talk) 19:39, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Manning is also more notable for having the name Bradley. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, "notable for" means "has an encyclopedia article because". Manning is notable for being a convicted criminal who leaked classified military documents while serving in the US military; Manning is notable while, not "for", having the name Bradley, and "while" has no bearing on anything one way or the other. Dead people were notable "while" they were alive, but that doesn't mean we don't update their articles to reflect the fact that they're not alive anymore. Bearcat (talk) 21:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- COMMONNAME has an allowance for legitimate exceptions written write into it. COMMONNAME also directly contains guidance on what to do in a name change situation; that guidance says that you base the move decision on sources written after the name change was announced, and many sources are shifting over. Bearcat (talk) 22:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Apparently transphobic can be used as stigmatization label even for people who just disagree with postmodernist perceptions of gender, indeed, those who lean more for biological determinism of the sexes. Transphobia seems pretty vague, varying from pure hatred towards transgender people from just preferring to use Bradley in this article. What you suggest, some form of moral policing I suppose, is utterly wrong. Who would determine what reliable sources are reporting in a way seemingly transphobic? Also, I believe there is a previous administrative action case of Wikipedians describing fellow editors asIslamophobic, because it's very close to a personal attack (especially as some people felt it concerns commenting another editor's mental state, an accusation of a medical phobia). In any case, it's not very good for the community that people are calling other editors -phobic or the other way "politically correct liberals". I'm sure disagreements can be solved without resorting to such self-righteous means. -Pudeo' 21:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Gender dysphoria is a real, recognized thing with real documented symptoms (an internal gender identity that doesn't match the physical sex of the body), real documented causes (a brain whose physical structures really do match those of the internal gender identity and not those of the body), and a real documented course of treatment (gender transition). It's not a "postmodernist perception"; it's a real, honest-to-gawd medical condition that actually exists, and is very well documented in medical literature. I don't even agree with every word I've ever seen written about gender either, but the basic existence of gender dysphoria is not a matter for debate. Bearcat (talk) 22:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The basic existence of gender dysphoria is a matter for debate just like evolution and gravity are matters for debate. To imply certanty and certan agreement, especially in sociological issues, is intellectually dishonest.CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sure, you're free to disagree with its existence if you want; you can even write an article on alternative theories of gender dysphoria if you want. But as long as the condition is recognized as legitimate by established medical science and verifiable in published medical literature, a biography of an individual person is not the place to wage a battle on whether medical science is right or wrong about the existence of the condition. Sure, there's a place to debate it — an article about a specific person who has been diagnosed with it is not that place. Bearcat (talk) 22:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Are you sure you want to use that simile? Both evolution and gravity are accepted as accurate models of the real world, with small quibbles over details that are insignificant compared to the root question of "Does x exist?" Unless I'm misreading something, your first sentence implies that there is no doubt on the existence of gender dysphoria in the mainstream psychological/physiological community but rather minor quibbles over details that do not invalidate the existence of GD, much as there is no doubt on the process of evolution in the mainstream biological community, nor doubt on the veracity of our models of gravity among physicists, which I'm thinking is not the argument you were seeking. Dralwik|Have a Chat 02:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is classified as a disorder in the DSM-V. That means there is broadly-accepted consensus in the relevant medical community that the disorder exists. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:42, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh I know; I agree fully with you. I'm pointing out that CombatWombat42 seems to be trying to argue against it, but is using a simile that undermines his position in the process. Dralwik|Have a Chat 02:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is classified as a disorder in the DSM-V. That means there is broadly-accepted consensus in the relevant medical community that the disorder exists. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:42, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- The basic existence of gender dysphoria is a matter for debate just like evolution and gravity are matters for debate. To imply certanty and certan agreement, especially in sociological issues, is intellectually dishonest.CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
What should have be done
Lock the article as it was, place a tag saying that the content might be out of date, and wait until everything's cleared up. It's not like there was really anything going on.
Hell, you can still revert and do it. Fix what was broken. --Niemti (talk) 00:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
But that's also for future instances of things like that.--Niemti (talk) 00:40, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
By the way (admins)
Unrelated discussion of another article |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Btw, speaking of Wikipedia creating 'reality': the ridiculous article title "Civil war in Iraq" still remains, 5 years later after the supposed "civil war" that never was - despite the current consensus, and the fact basically nobody's championing the "civil war" idiocy outside Wikipedia for a long time. Obviously, this was (and is, even as now it's different) the sectarian violence in Iraq (religion-motivated terrorism by extremist Sunni insurgent groups and revenge attacks by Shiite vigilante gangs, often doubling as also insurgents). Could someone of the admins reading it fix it, please? Also, the whole article has to be rewritten to reflect reality of what it really was (the general insurgency article is of course Iraqi insurgency). --Niemti (talk) 10:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
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Manning was leaking related materials and the article also the editors who didn't wait for things to be cleared up (now it's long clear there was no "civil war" after all). --Niemti (talk) 15:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
RFC related to unprofessional conduct
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct.
- Guidelines:
- Policies:
I am someone who normally supports the open and free discussion of articles. Usually, editors are able to keep themselves composed, make the discussions relevant to the subject of the article, and are able to improve it. That notwithstanding, very little of the discussion here is on Manning. A lot of the talk page discussion are 40+ users attacking each other on if they're transphobic or trolls. I'm a supporter of transsexual rights; but it's very counter intuitive for people to go as far as to accuse someone of hating transsexual people just because they have different opinions, even if they are against transexuals rights or vice versa. Besides that, a lot of people on both sides of the issues have used baiting and personal attacks which is especially problematic. This incivility needs to stop. Jimbo Wales and Sue Gardner have not discouraged both sides from arguing against each other when they had the chance to. The only threads that have not been affected by this unprofessionalism are the main survey and edit requests. Even a thread I made to try to combat this went into that type of territory and another one was ignored. Therefore, we need to discuss having the other sections not related to edit requests and the main survey archived so everyone can stop attacking each other. Discussion is a privilege; not a right and it can be removed when the community has been showed to not be deserving of it. --Thebirdlover (talk) 01:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- This should be speedily closed, there have already been unprofessional conduct discussions here which are now closed and on the admin board which are ongoing no need to start another one. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Comment I don't think this is an accepted use of the RfC process. RfCs (unless they are RfCs on individual users' conduct) are supposed to be about article content, which this is not about. I have no comment on the better avenue for addressing the issue you want addressed, but I will say any unmoderated discussion similar to this (with or without the RfC template) will just result in more of the problem -- mudslinging -- that you feel has consumed this talk page. -- tariqabjotu 01:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: If there are individuals who need reminders about NPA, GF, CIVIL, etc., then such reminders ought to be posted on their talk pages. But this RfC is off-topic in that it seems to invite comments about individual editors. There is already a peacedove reminder at the top of this page and a RfC here, that can only restate the obvious, that more etiquettue is needed, won't help. I suggest that Thebirdlover remove the RfC template and hat this thread. – S. Rich (talk) 02:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment — It seems impossible to rein in combativeness when it comes to controversial subjects. Even the tone of this proposal to reduce combativeness is somewhat combative itself. --Bob K31416 (talk) 11:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Closure of proposed move
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There are 277 hits for "support" and 142 for "oppose" on this talk page. It will take a long time to close this. Is it really that important, and when will this be decided? Surfer43_¿qué_pasa? 01:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It'll be closed on Thursday. Patience, young grasshopper. (Also, the survey is actually about 150-115 support:oppose at the moment.) -- tariqabjotu 01:56, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- See the FAQ at the top of the page. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- At the very best, this will end with "no consensus" and no move, and the article stays at the current title. Especially as the rationales cited by the opposing side are much more convincing and policy based, whereas the "support" comments include all sorts of misunderstandings about Wikipedia policy, about transgendered people and insults (like comparisons to dogs or Minnie Mouse or broomsticks), and also because so many users agree this is a very serious BLP issue and because we have a rather explicit policy (that is to be interpreted according to its spirit, not letter, as pointed out by many) and established practice in regard to transgendered people. Josh Gorand (talk) 12:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Let's just all be thankful you're not in a position to determine consensus.--v/r - TP 13:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's utterly useless to speculate on the outcome of this move discussion, especially when combined with one's (subjective) impression which side's reasoning is considered "convincing and policy based" or how the current (non-)consensus might look like. We should just wait and see how the closing admins decide.--FoxyOrange (talk) 12:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It would take some mighty strong arguments and some mighty weak ones on the other side to overcome a -35 there, and I don't really see that. Again, MOS:IDENTITY is not policy, and your piping it into text calling it such, i.e. the [[MOS:IDENTITY|explicit policy]] bit above, is quite a bald-faced misrepresentation. A guide that is superseded by policy. There is also the notion that a handful of admins deciding for themselves what to name the article should never have been done, that it should have remained at "Bradley Manning", then have the move discussion to see if there is support to move it to "Chelsea". There is both a policy vs. guideline argument and a process-was-violated argument that is far too much for a -35 deficit to overcome. To expand on the latter, keep in mind that the "support" votes aren't all a vote FOR "Bradley manning", some...probably quite a few... are simply in favor of status quo ante bellum. (yes, the bellum inclusion is intentional) Tarc (talk) 12:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. Nothing irritates me more than editors who insist on misrepresenting guidelines as policies to support their own views. Generally the guideline may be a good idea, but in this instance, when an individual is clearly overwhelmingly well-known as a man and under his male name, it cannot possibly be claimed to supersede all other guidelines and policies. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I again feel the need to strongly reiterate what others have said so as to counteract any misperceptions: MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline. Guidelines are unequivocally NOT policies, and it is absolutely inaccurate to refer to guidelines as such. CaseyPenk (talk) 16:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- BLP is policy however, and as explained throughly by others above, it takes precedence. MOS:IDENTITY is helpful in how the general principles contained in BLP are to be interpreted in this specific case. Josh Gorand (talk) 17:14, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It would take some mighty strong arguments and some mighty weak ones on the other side to overcome a -35 there, and I don't really see that. Again, MOS:IDENTITY is not policy, and your piping it into text calling it such, i.e. the [[MOS:IDENTITY|explicit policy]] bit above, is quite a bald-faced misrepresentation. A guide that is superseded by policy. There is also the notion that a handful of admins deciding for themselves what to name the article should never have been done, that it should have remained at "Bradley Manning", then have the move discussion to see if there is support to move it to "Chelsea". There is both a policy vs. guideline argument and a process-was-violated argument that is far too much for a -35 deficit to overcome. To expand on the latter, keep in mind that the "support" votes aren't all a vote FOR "Bradley manning", some...probably quite a few... are simply in favor of status quo ante bellum. (yes, the bellum inclusion is intentional) Tarc (talk) 12:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- "BLP" is not a magic token that ceases all opposing discussion immediately, though. I appreciate the fact that you think you are right, but I feel I am right as well. That's why discussions such as the move request are closed by neutral parties who determine where the consensus lies, if the consensus is backed by policy, and what the raw numbers are. sit back, relax, and we'll see what happens. Tarc (talk) 18:02, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Chelsea Manning media coverage controversy
Note to interested editors that a new related article Chelsea Manning media coverage controversy has been just created. --Vigyanitalkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 04:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's a bit disturbing that Wikipedia made the news in regards to this. Wikipedia should never be praised for guiding public debate in any possible manner. †TE†Talk 15:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I also made the news when I made 7/7. I don't remember anyone condemning that. Morwen (talk) 16:00, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I feel that comment comes across as "Ya'all are just jealous."--v/r - TP 17:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm certain I literally have no idea to what you refer. Do you want a cookie? †TE†Talk 16:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia being quick on the uptake, such as in its coverage of 7/7, is a good thing. Sometimes the speed of Wikipedia's coverage of a topic gets it media attention. That doesn't stop it being a good thing. And if you're offering cookies, mine's orange choc-chip. —me_and 16:40, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I still have no idea what y'all are talking about with this 7\7 stuff. Wikipedia started referencing it as 7/7, getting ahead of the media? Or Wikipedia took the bold step of calling it a terrorist attack when the media was uncertain? If not one of these two then it has zero relevance to this discussion. †TE†Talk 17:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- The reference to 7/7 is that Morwen was the person who started that article and she made the news for being the person to start that article. She is making that point that this is no different to her having made the news for being the person to move this article to the correct title. Her contributions show that she has started and moved many other articles and, to my knowledge, has not made the news about any of them. The point is that Wikipedia and Wikipedians cannot choose which editorial actions on Wikipedia will put Wikipedia in the news. Thryduulf (talk) 18:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- So we've established that some wikipedians may enjoy making the news (even boastfully), but what does that have to do with being somewhat ahead of the news in pronoun usage of Manning? †TE†Talk 18:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- The reference to 7/7 is that Morwen was the person who started that article and she made the news for being the person to start that article. She is making that point that this is no different to her having made the news for being the person to move this article to the correct title. Her contributions show that she has started and moved many other articles and, to my knowledge, has not made the news about any of them. The point is that Wikipedia and Wikipedians cannot choose which editorial actions on Wikipedia will put Wikipedia in the news. Thryduulf (talk) 18:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I still have no idea what y'all are talking about with this 7\7 stuff. Wikipedia started referencing it as 7/7, getting ahead of the media? Or Wikipedia took the bold step of calling it a terrorist attack when the media was uncertain? If not one of these two then it has zero relevance to this discussion. †TE†Talk 17:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia being quick on the uptake, such as in its coverage of 7/7, is a good thing. Sometimes the speed of Wikipedia's coverage of a topic gets it media attention. That doesn't stop it being a good thing. And if you're offering cookies, mine's orange choc-chip. —me_and 16:40, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I also made the news when I made 7/7. I don't remember anyone condemning that. Morwen (talk) 16:00, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
I moved the page to Chelsea Manning gender identity media coverage. This avoids the contentious label of "controversy" and clarifies the scope; the article is about the gender identity topic and not Chelsea as a whole. CaseyPenk (talk) 16:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
It has been proposed that the Chelsea Manning gender identity media coverage article be merged into this one (the main Chelsea Manning article). If you have any views on this, please comment in the discussion at Talk:Chelsea Manning gender identity media coverage#Merge with Chelsea Manning article rather than here. Thryduulf (talk) 23:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
When Bradley becomes Chelsea
The question of transitioning from one gender to another raises some thorny questions. The day after sentencing, Manning said that she wanted to be referred to as a woman from this day forward. So what do we do with events in Manning's life before this fateful day? This quotation from a CBS report may offer food for thought:
Coombs said Manning knows there is the potential for confusion with the name change, and said Manning expects to be referred to as Bradley when it has to do with events prior to sentencing, the appeal of the court-martial and the request for a presidential pardon. Prison mail must be addressed to Bradley Manning. "There's a realization that most people know her as Bradley," Coombs said. "Chelsea is a realist and understands."
My own feeling is that we could take this as suggesting that everything before the day of the announcement belongs to Bradley, and all references from that day forward belong to Chelsea. I think this may be helpful, especially as at one stage, Bradley identified as a gay man. What do others think? Michael Glass (talk) 16:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it was a resignation to the state of affairs, not an encouragement to do so - David Gerard (talk) 16:04, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It looks like the above excerpt is evidence that the "distress" argument for keeping the new title of Chelsea Manning isn't valid. Note the part,
- "There's a realization that most people know her as Bradley," Coombs said. "Chelsea is a realist and understands."
- --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It looks like the above excerpt is evidence that the "distress" argument for keeping the new title of Chelsea Manning isn't valid. Note the part,
- It is a bit ambiguous whether "expects" means "wants" or "realizes". AgnosticAphid talk 16:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
It can be read two ways, I agree. However, I would like people to consider an analogous case where Christine Jorgensen described herself as a "frail, blond, introverted little boy who ran from fistfights and rough-and-tumble games." I think you would have to agree that Jorgensen was comfortable with having been a little boy who changed into a female. Now I know we can't apply this directly to Chelsea Manning. However, we cannot discount the possibility that when it says, " Manning expects to be referred to as Bradley when it has to do with events prior to sentencing" that Chelsea does want this to happen. Whatever else Manning might be, she is no shrinking violet, and if she wanted to be viewed as female all along she would have had no hesitation in saying so. Instead, she used a from this day forward wording in her announcement. Michael Glass (talk) 02:40, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Reconsidering applicability of WP:BLP
Bob K31416 pointed this out above; I believe it deserves its own section as it's an important topic in and of itself.
According to Manning's lawyer in a CBS News article:
"There's a realization that most people know her as Bradley," Coombs said. "Chelsea is a realist and understands."
That, to me and to Bob K31416, seems to indicate that referring to Chelsea as Bradley is not causing harm; Chelsea understands that people may use multiple names. There's not indication that using the word "Bradley" would cause distress or harm. In other words, it does not appear to be a violation of WP:BLP. CaseyPenk (talk) 16:35, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it's a stretch - David Gerard (talk) 16:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- How so? There's been no indication since the name change was announced that using Bradley was causing any harm. It would be quite the assumption to assume that Chelsea and her lawyer are offended by Bradley but are not saying so (in other words, to imagine there must be some "secret" harm being done that we do not know about). CaseyPenk (talk) 16:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Reconsider BLP, WP:IDENTITY and all policies accordingly to THE common sense. LGBT-fundamentalism regarding this article's name is a very blatant case of Disruption. All policies should be aimed at preventing disruption. Lucky we are that Mr. Manning didn't wish to be renamed "Stinkie Pinky Piggie". Cause in that case the SJWs would probably try justifying such an article name with BLP as well) Ukrained2012 (talk) 17:19, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Ukrained2012, I don't think this situation is analogous to someone taking an absurd name such as the one you listed. I think Chelsea has a genuine desire to be known by this name for deeply personal reasons; I don't think it's a publicity stunt or a request for a reality TV show. I think it's a reflection of Chelsea's identity. CaseyPenk (talk) 17:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter what new name a trans* person chooses. As long as there is no reason to doubt that they are sincere in wanting to be known by the new name it is entirely irrelevant what we think of it. Anything else would be us making a value judgement about their name, which is undeniably contrary to Wikipedia policy. Thryduulf (talk) 17:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- David Gerard, Did you ever consider that your WP:BLP argument of distress and harm is a stretch, especially the notion that the article name had to be immediately changed to Chelsea Manning on Aug 22 because of concern for the harm it would do to Manning? Please note that Manning's website at http://www.bradleymanning.org/ only changed it's name yesterday Aug 26 from the Bradley Manning Support Network to the Private Manning Support Network. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Bob K31416 - It was obviously a stretch. It was more of a lame excuse for misusing admin powers rather than a legitimate justification. If the WP:BLP argument was clear, the requested move above wouldn't be showing so much support for the name "Bradley". NickCT (talk) 17:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
My understanding is that WP:BLP has nothing to do with distress or desire (otherwise all articles with negative content would be violations), but with sourcing, and legal liability from libel etc (See BLPPROD reasoning etc). This clearly does not qualify as such. It may be that we should be receptive to Manning's wishes on a personal level (as fellow humans). It may be that the article should be (or will be) renamed, but if it is not renamed, it is not a BLP violation by any stretch of the imagination. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:26, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
1/sqrt(2)(|Chelsea> + |Bradley>). Count Iblis (talk) 18:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
The cabal will determine whether this person is Bradley or Chelsea
In relation to the requested move above.
Quick timeline of events surrounding the title of this article
- 08:18 to 09:31, 22 August 2013 - Couple of folks edit war the title of this article, moving the article from Bradley to Chelsae and vice versa. (see [19], [20],[21])
- 09:31, 22 August 2013 - User:David Gerard protects the page from non-admin moving, trying to lock the name down as "Chelsea". (see [22])
- 10:32, 22 August 2013 - Admin User:Tariqabjotu moves the page back to Bradley, and says in the edit summary that the move to Chelsea was undiscussed. (see [23])
- 10:34, 22 August 2013 - User:David Gerard undoes the move to Bradley, citing WP:BLP concerns and later claiming that sufficient consensus for the move to Chelsea existed on this version of the talkpage. (see [24])
- 15:29, 22 August 2013 - User:CaseyPenk files a requested move back to Bradley
- 21:14, 22 August 2013 - User:BD2412 agrees to "shepherd" the requested move back to Bradley
- 04:05, 23 August 2013 - User:Sue Gardner registers her support for keeping the name Chelsea in the requested move.
- 17:06, 23 August 2013 - User:Jimbo Wales registers his support for keeping the name Chelsea on his talkpage.
- Currently - A clear majority of editors weighing into the requested move support the use of the name "Bradley", which, if anything, demonstrates there never was consensus for the move to "Chelsea" in the first place. The requested move will likely end on Thursday with a clear majority supporting "Bradley".
- The future - The admins "shepherding" the requested move will find that despite the clear majority supporting "Bradley", there is not sufficient consensus for a move back. And so, "Chelsea", the name which shouldn't have been moved to in the first place, will remain in place.
- Conclusion - If you're an admin, and you want to push your POV in an edit war over an article's title, just put move protection on the page after it's moved to the title you like. You can then insist that folks demonstrate consensus for the name you don't want, and when it can't be shown that a overwhelming majority supports the other position, you can insist on keeping your name.
On Thursday, Wikipedia will very likely be a little bit less about consensus building and a little bit more about battle grounding. Hopefully, the admins "shepherding" this will have the wisdom not to wuss out by declaring "no consensus" and maintaining a name supported by a few high visibility users. NickCT (talk) 17:35, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- NickCT, I think you're taking a short-sighted view. Once the RM is complete, an Arbcom case will likely be filed (perhaps by me) to discuss the admin actions taken on this article (not the merits of the move nor the merits of the close, however [good luck to the closer, I have full faith]). Haven't you noticed that not a single Arb has gotten involved in this issue (except Risker from an uninvolved admin position). Everyone sees Arbcom on the horizon. But it's premature to file a case until this is wrapped up.--v/r - TP 17:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I very strongly support an Arbcom case. The offenses have, in my view, been egregious and an offense to Wikipedia policy. CaseyPenk (talk) 17:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Since my name has been raised here, I will briefly respond to NickCT that prognosticating about the outcome of this process is of no value one way or another to the discussion on the merits. Let me be clear, when a volunteer to close this discussion was requested on the Administrator's Noticeboard, I stepped up precisely because I have closed contentious discussions before (see, e.g., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Forward (Obama-Biden Campaign Slogan)), and because I have no interest in the outcome of the discussion. As you can see, I have never even edited this article (which is particularly significant coming from me, as I have edited over 300,000 different Wikipedia pages). I have no predispositions as to a "correct" outcome, and if I did I would not let them interfere with a disinterested and dispassionate determination of policy and consensus. I have the same confidence in the other closing admins on the panel, who have also worked on contentious matters before. Finally, it seems odd to attribute anything to a cabal when an admin, User:Tariqabjotu, reverted the initial page move, and when the participation in this discussion includes a large number of admins on both sides of the issue. bd2412 T 18:02, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have been reading your sandbox and your interpretation of what has progressed so far is very cogent. Thank you for taking this on.Two kinds of pork (talk) 18:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @bd2412 T - Just for the record, I wasn't trying to suggest that you were a member of the "cabal", more than I was trying to infer you may have difficultly reaching a finding not in-line with the "cabal's" opinion. I recognize and accept you likely have no pre-existing opinion on the naming issue.
- re "seems odd to attribute anything to a cabal when an admin, User:Tariqabjotu" - Not all admins are part of the cabal. NickCT (talk) 20:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I appreciate your clarification. bd2412 T 20:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Moving the article on the individual self-identified as a female named Chelsea Manning to "Bradley" would not only be in clear violation of Wikipedia's own policies, especially BLP as outlined in detail above by others, it would be catastrophic for Wikipedia's reputation, especially now that so many major media organizations have already adopted the name change. It would essentially cast Wikipedia as contrarian and as pushing an offensive point of view in society at large. The only tenable solution is to retain the current title, Chelsea Manning. Why should Manning get a different treatment than Kate Middleton, who had her page moved instantly despite the overwhelming majority of sources using the name Kate Middleton? Josh Gorand (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
New York Times flips
Just a note that the New York Times has flipped to using "Chelsea Manning" at this point. [25] The Washington Post has also started using Chelsea. As has the AP. What major media sources are left holding out? CNN is, I know. Is there anything else major that's still using "Bradley?" If not, I would point out that WP:COMMONNAME says "if an organization changes its name, it is reasonable to consider the usage since the change." Given a change in the majority of reliable sources, how is it that there is still a dispute here, exactly? Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can you point to where The Washington Post has started using Chelsea? I just keep getting a lot of AP wire articles. As to a few other sources, see #References to Manning in sources (among them, the BBC). You admit you don't seem to be abreast of who is using which name, so it seems odd to me that you'd conclude, absent such information, that a "majority of reliable sources" now call the subject Chelsea. I understand some people hold the AP and the New York Times to such high esteem that they'd base common name solely upon those two sources, but it's inconclusive at this point what a majority of sources are doing. -- tariqabjotu 20:35, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- [26] Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) That's not The Washington Post using the name Chelsea. The way I read the title it's "[The use/request/idea of the name] Chelsea Manning puts transgender issues in the spotlight", not that the individual is. You'll see in the photo caption, the author still calls the subject Bradley Manning. In the linked photo gallery, the subject is still called Bradley Manning. This is why the sources need to be about something other than the gender identity change; it needs to be clear the source is referring to Manning as Chelsea in passing, not as an idea in reference to the gender identity change. Unfortunately, I can't find any source from the Washington Post written since August 22 that's not an AP wire story. -- tariqabjotu 21:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is a more recent article, as is this, but the latter only mentions Chelsea in passing and doesn't use any pronouns. Note: I'm no AP expert, but though the first link is an AP story couldn't they have changed the pronouns and names if they wanted? Maybe the first link isn't that relevant. AgnosticAphid talk 21:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- They're both AP stories. -- tariqabjotu 21:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- [26] Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- You know, though I supported the use of "Bradley", at the same time I acknowledge there may come a day when "Chelsea" is the name supported by a majority of reliable sources. When that day comes, the correct title for the article will be "Chelsea" per WP:COMMONNAME. I don't think that day has come yet and I definitely don't think the title of article should have been changed several days ago (before the AP and NYT made the switch). Let's wait a month and reassess. NickCT (talk) 20:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- A month?!?!?! That's an unheard of wait for a name change like this. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- re "That's an unheard of wait" - Citation needed! Can you point to other examples of name changes like this one which were enacted so quickly after the individual announced a name change? NickCT (talk) 22:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've done so up thread, actually, and the same set of three is covered in David Gerard and Morwen's summary of their reasoning. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- re "That's an unheard of wait" - Citation needed! Can you point to other examples of name changes like this one which were enacted so quickly after the individual announced a name change? NickCT (talk) 22:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- By chance, just before you wrote this I replied to you in an older section showing why WP:COMMONNAME + MOS:IDENTITY supported the current title even before the AP and NTY switch. That's not to mention BLP, which fully justified David Gerrad's bold actions. I dont see how we can possibly change from Chelsea, unless we want to tear up policy and decide things based on majority voting? FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @FeydHuxtable - If you read through the conversations above you'll probably note some degree of consensus surrounding the idea that WP:COMMONNAME supports the use of "Bradley". Furthermore, as has been hashed out again and again MOS:IDENTITY isn't really intended to influence article titles. Additionally, no one has brought up a good explanation for how WP:BLP applies. NickCT (talk) 22:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, that's been stated, incorrectly: Wikipedia:MOS#Article_titles.2C_headings.2C_and_sections states explicitly, "The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title." - David Gerard (talk) 22:34, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- "The guidance" in MOS:IDENT relates to the use of pronouns. If a pronoun was used in this articles title, I'd agree it should be "she" rather than "he" based on policy. There is no pronoun in this title. NickCT (talk) 22:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- If we look at the views of experienced editor who actually wrote our guidelines, like Morwen who was one of the authors of the document in question, or SlimVirgin who is arguably the single editor most responsible for shaping content policy, they both seem to believe MOS:IDENTITY supports Chelsea. Your claim to know the guidelines intention better than they do is not convincing Im afraid. FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- My claim is that I can read English and have basic reasoning skills. Please point out for me where MOS:IDENT says it deals with something other than pronouns. NickCT (talk) 01:14, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- If we look at the views of experienced editor who actually wrote our guidelines, like Morwen who was one of the authors of the document in question, or SlimVirgin who is arguably the single editor most responsible for shaping content policy, they both seem to believe MOS:IDENTITY supports Chelsea. Your claim to know the guidelines intention better than they do is not convincing Im afraid. FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- "The guidance" in MOS:IDENT relates to the use of pronouns. If a pronoun was used in this articles title, I'd agree it should be "she" rather than "he" based on policy. There is no pronoun in this title. NickCT (talk) 22:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- BLP application has been explained several times already. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Sportfan5000 - Outside a few folks claiming that calling him Bradley is "sexual harrasment", I haven't seen anyone really point to which section of WP:BLP they feel is at issue. NickCT (talk) 22:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's a whole section devoted to it at Talk:Chelsea_Manning#WP:BLP. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sportfan5000 is correct, but as NickCT's user page says he enjoys dialectics , I'll try showing how BLP applies in a way he may like. The spirit of BLP is concerned with protecting living people from suffering undue harm from changes made to their articles by uncaring anonymous accounts. Calling Chelsea by a name that misrepresents her gender and would very likely be harmful, possibly grievously so, as the poor woman seems to be already under severe mental stress. Syllogisms don't get much simpler, but if you're still not convinced, remember that recognized BLP experts right up to Jimbo have weighed in for Chelsea. FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- re "uncaring anonymous accounts" - So your argument then is that everyone arguing a "support" position is uncaring and anonymous? Ok. So I think we can dismiss that.
- re "misrepresents her gender and would very likely be harmful" - So I take it you think that parents who don't give their kids gender appropriate names are harming their children grievously? Right.... We can dismiss that too.
- re "recognized BLP experts up to Jimbo" - Citation needed. Can you point some source that recognizes Jimbo as an expert in WP:BLP? I presume you have eyes and can read. Go look at BLP yourself and tell me which sections apply. Unfortunately, a lot of people think WP:BLP means we can't say things about people that those people might dislike. It does not say that. NickCT (talk) 01:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- If a child is already facing adversary for other reasons, then yes it could cause grievous psychological harm if their parents add to their troubles by giving them a name that misrepresents gender. Im not at all saying that all support voters are uncaring (Nor do I even suspect that.) Claiming I do from my description of the spirit of BLP is a logical fallacy. Some of your other questions have no concise and clear answer, but I hope you'll understand I dont want to further add to the size of this page given these basic logical misunderstandings. With reliable sources increasingly switching to Chelsea, the already weak case for the wrong name is collapsing, and it's not necessary for every last objector to be convinced. FeydHuxtable (talk) 06:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Sportfan5000 Have you actually read that section? It makes somewhat weird cliams, like this issue somehow relates to the "subject's privacy.". I see no obvious way in which the title of this article relates to Manning's privacy. Do you? Stop guessing at which policies you think might support your opinion and point to actual passages. NickCT (talk) 01:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sportfan5000 is correct, but as NickCT's user page says he enjoys dialectics , I'll try showing how BLP applies in a way he may like. The spirit of BLP is concerned with protecting living people from suffering undue harm from changes made to their articles by uncaring anonymous accounts. Calling Chelsea by a name that misrepresents her gender and would very likely be harmful, possibly grievously so, as the poor woman seems to be already under severe mental stress. Syllogisms don't get much simpler, but if you're still not convinced, remember that recognized BLP experts right up to Jimbo have weighed in for Chelsea. FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's a whole section devoted to it at Talk:Chelsea_Manning#WP:BLP. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Sportfan5000 - Outside a few folks claiming that calling him Bradley is "sexual harrasment", I haven't seen anyone really point to which section of WP:BLP they feel is at issue. NickCT (talk) 22:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm skeptical of the applicability of many of the discussions of WP:COMMONNAME from several days ago. The situation has been evolving quickly, and more and more news sources have been switching to "Chelsea." What seemed a fairly even split in the immediate aftermath has become increasingly slanted towards Chelsea over the last day or two. Some of the earlier !votes are, simply put, obsolete. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- re " increasingly slanted towards Chelsea over the last day or two" - Agreed. That does seem to be the way the tide is turning, and I wouldn't be surprised if in a week or month's time the WP:COMMONNAME argument clearly supports "Chelsea". That said, WP:COMMONNAME didn't support "Chelsea" 5 days ago (when this change was initially made). NickCT (talk) 22:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but I'm not really sure what the value of discussing where the article should be five days ago is. We can't move the article five days ago, and if COMMONNAME is now pointing towards Chelsea that matters rather more than where it pointed five days ago. I mean, if people want to take David or Morwen to the ArbCom over five days ago, I suppose they can, but that's about the only forum where the correct location of the article as of five days ago seems relevant. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Phil Sandifer - Well look. You seem willing to accept that the initial move was probably bad. I may agree with you that the world seems to begun to catch up with WP's bad decision, so a move back isn't necessary, but I think the right thing to do here is acknowledge the initial mistake, move the page back to Bradley and then reassess. I still don't think we can confidently say the majority of RS have made the switch, though it might very well end up that we move to "Bradley" just for a couple weeks. NickCT (talk) 01:34, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I am terribly unpersuaded by the idea that there's some hazy fog of war here. Even if it is somewhere near an even split... we have sources that are somewhere between an even split and settled on Chelsea, a MOS that says to use Chelsea, BLP policy that says to avoid harm to the subject (which misgendering and misnaming both count as), and the past precedent in less politicized cases of prompt changes. The case for locating the article at "Bradley Manning" for any length of time seems terribly strained to me. Phil Sandifer (talk) 05:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Phil Sandifer - Well look. You seem willing to accept that the initial move was probably bad. I may agree with you that the world seems to begun to catch up with WP's bad decision, so a move back isn't necessary, but I think the right thing to do here is acknowledge the initial mistake, move the page back to Bradley and then reassess. I still don't think we can confidently say the majority of RS have made the switch, though it might very well end up that we move to "Bradley" just for a couple weeks. NickCT (talk) 01:34, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but I'm not really sure what the value of discussing where the article should be five days ago is. We can't move the article five days ago, and if COMMONNAME is now pointing towards Chelsea that matters rather more than where it pointed five days ago. I mean, if people want to take David or Morwen to the ArbCom over five days ago, I suppose they can, but that's about the only forum where the correct location of the article as of five days ago seems relevant. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- COMMONNAME also points back to the five criteria in the preceding section. It also says
When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.
Even as some sources have made the switch, and -- as I said -- it's still questionable which name most sources use now, there remain issues of recognizable and naturalness (which, after all, are issues of how common a name is) with the name "Chelsea Manning". How big those issues are, whether those issues constitute "problems", is, of course, subjective, but I wouldn't be so quick to discount early supporting remarks referencing WP:COMMONNAME. -- tariqabjotu 02:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)- The closer, of course, will want to make a case by case judgment. Still, comments talking about lack of reliable sources using Chelsea made days ago are rapidly becoming obsolete. This surely counts for something. Phil Sandifer (talk) 05:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- re " increasingly slanted towards Chelsea over the last day or two" - Agreed. That does seem to be the way the tide is turning, and I wouldn't be surprised if in a week or month's time the WP:COMMONNAME argument clearly supports "Chelsea". That said, WP:COMMONNAME didn't support "Chelsea" 5 days ago (when this change was initially made). NickCT (talk) 22:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, that's been stated, incorrectly: Wikipedia:MOS#Article_titles.2C_headings.2C_and_sections states explicitly, "The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title." - David Gerard (talk) 22:34, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @FeydHuxtable - If you read through the conversations above you'll probably note some degree of consensus surrounding the idea that WP:COMMONNAME supports the use of "Bradley". Furthermore, as has been hashed out again and again MOS:IDENTITY isn't really intended to influence article titles. Additionally, no one has brought up a good explanation for how WP:BLP applies. NickCT (talk) 22:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- A month?!?!?! That's an unheard of wait for a name change like this. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Chelsea Now the Most Famous Transgender Inmate in America
Chelsea Manning Is Now the Most Famous Transgender Inmate in America. Will She Be Treated Humanely? Slate.com. By Amanda Hess | Posted Thursday, Aug. 22, 2013.
I think she may be one of the most famous trans women in the world as well. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- At the present time you'd have a hard job demonstrating she isn't the highest profile trans* person in the world. How this plays out long term we can't yet know, but it wouldn't surprise me if she remains in the top 10 for a long while. Thryduulf (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Lede too long?
The lede is one paragraph too long. Per WP:LEAD, amount of paragraphs must be no more than four. Perhaps details might not be mentioned elsewhere besides lede. --George Ho (talk) 22:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think this is an ironclad rule; the Hillary Rodham Clinton article has a five paragraph lead, despite repeated objections on this basis, because everyone there seems to think that each of the paragraphs deals with a particular and distinct part of her life. And the rule doesn't say that the "amount of paragraphs must be no more than four," it says "it should ideally contain no more than four paragraphs." I personally think that here too each paragraph deals with a distinct and important issue. YMMV. AgnosticAphid talk 23:07, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- If all of the information currently in the lead is to be retained, then I agree that each paragraph is distinct enough to remain separate. However, I don't think that the fifth paragraph is important enough to be in the lead; I think JohnValeron was right to move it. -sche (talk) 01:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- The lead should briefly summarize the response to the leaked material and sentence, which is what the final paragraph does. We currently have five paragraphs because the transgender announcement is a separate one. When things die down, that might be incorporated into one of the other paragraphs, or it might not given that it's quite distinct from the other issues. But this is not the right time to make that kind of editorial decision. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:37, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Consensus is to wait until after the move for this |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I note that Talk:Chelsea Manning gender identity media coverage, and the talk pages of the articles about the other transgender women Wikipedia considers notable, transclude(s) {{MOS-TW}}, yet this talk page doesn't. Should {{MOS-TW}} be added to this talk page? If not, why should this talk page should be templated differently from the talk pages of our articles on other transgender women? (I can see that several of the people who have commented on this page reject the principle behind {{MOS-TW}}, though they have not referred to it by name and may not be aware of it. I think, however, that it would be more sensible to oppose the very existence or wording of {{MOS-TW}}, rather than to disuse it on only one page.) -sche (talk) 00:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
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Comments on some propositions and sources
Dear Wikipedians
- Timeliness: Please forgive me if I am a little late to the party but it has taken me a few days to be able to make the time to discover and familiarise myself with the behind the scenes machinery of Wikipedia, as well as to find an established user to post this for me.
- Forum: Again, and for the same reasons, please forgive me if these comments would be more appropriately made elsewhere. I also believe that general policy can sometimes be usefully tested and if necessary evolved in a specific case rather than exclusively in the abstract.
- Proposition (as advanced in various forms on this page, in summary): Gender is a subjective and plastic matter to be determined, and changed if desired, by the individual Proposed authority: DM-V and others. Comment: I limit my comments to the DM-V but suspect they would equally apply to the other medical/psychological texts being cited. They DM-V may in fact not be authority for this proposition and indeed may in fact be authority for an essentially opposite proposition, namely: gender is immutable, having been fixed at birth (query whether those references should be to conception) and all that is capable of change is aspects of the expression of gender. By way of example I have extracted the following quotes from the DM-V, all emphasis mine: “Treatment is available to assist people with such distress to explore their gender identity and find a gender role that is comfortable for them … What helps one person alleviate gender dysphoria might be very different from what helps another person. This process may or may not involve a change in gender expression or body modifications...” and later “many individuals who receive treatment will find a gender role and expression that is comfortable for them, even if these differ from those associated with their sex assigned at birth”. Further authority: Any biological textbook. Proposal: Manning might self-identify and wish to live as a woman, others might support him in that, and he might take hormone therapy to alter his hormonal balance, etc., but an accurate encyclopedic description of him based on sources subjected to close scrutiny should be cast in those terms, as in: a biological male who self-identifies and lives as a woman and, if it is the case, who has undergone hormone therapy treatment, etc..
- Proposition (as advanced in various forms on this page, in summary): The choice of pronoun to describe an individual should be determined by that individual’s chosen gender. Proposed authority: MOS: Identity and WP: BLP. Counter-propositions: See item (3) above. Where a policy would prevent making an entry more accurate, disregard the policy. Authority: Wikipedia: Ignore all rules. Also, see the MOS (“Style and formatting choices should be consistent within an article, though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole”). Manning has implicitly acknowledged he is biological male. Authority: Manning’s statement released via his lawyer on 22 August. Entries should not obfuscate, let alone reverse, verifiable fact in order to avoid causing offence. Authority: Indirect, consider description of world as round and earth as billions of years old despite possibility of offence to some individuals of some religious persuasions. I’m sure direct authority will come easily to the hands of you more familiar with Wikipedia’s policies.
- Proposition (as implicit in a number of comments on this page, I suspect as a part-basis for resisting the change of Manning’s first name to Chelsea): The choice of pronoun to describe an individual should be determined by the gender commonly associated with that name, ie because Chelsea is commonly associated with women, then female pronouns become appropriate. Authority: None. Comment: This would come as a surprise to all of the women with names traditionally associated with men, for example “Charlie”. I’m sure further authority will come readily to those of you more familiar with Wikipedia and good writing guides.
- Proposition (as advanced above) Manning is not a criminal. Authority: None. Comment: This was a staggering comment to find on the discussion page for an encyclopedic entry Manning was convicted of a crime and is verifiably therefore a criminal.
- Proposition: The "MOS Identity" rule/guideline regulates decisions relating to Manning’s name and the pronoun to be used to describe him. Authority: None. Counter proposition: Where an entry would be improved by ignoring a policy, ignore the policy. Authority: Wikipedia: Ignore all rules. Further counter proposition: This guideline/rule begins with the qualifier "where there is no controversy". So I think its invocation to purportedly “settle” the controversy regarding the appropriate pronoun to use for Manning is inappropriate and lacking intellectual rigour. Authority: MOS Identity. Further counter proposition: See also my comment at (2) above, as in that general policy be useful advanced by discussions concerning specific examples. Authority: the common law legal system Others more familiar with scholarly dialectics will no doubt have more examples.
- Proposition: Individuals have the right to define themselves (advanced on this page in those terms as a basis for giving final and absolute priority to Manning in deciding whether to use the female pronoun to describe him). Authority: None. Comment: As with (6), this concerned me greatly. What is this right? I am completely unaware of it. Where does it come from? Where is it described? Is it of universal application? Is it superior to the group's right (if one exists) to define the individual, or to verifiable facts if they available? For those of you in the USA, please correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe it appears in your amended constitution or bill of rights, and in any case that would clearly be of limited global relevance.
- Proposition: "... society generally now accepts changes of gender identity happen and are real..." Authority: None, though see comments above regarding the DM V, which suggests that it may be a misleading over-statement to say that there is a general consensus in the scientific/medical community that gender can change, when instead it may be that the consensus is – critically – more limited to the expression of gender and the distress created by a dissonance between actual gender and self-identity. Comment: Which society? How is that general acceptance evidenced? Is there any controversy regarding that general acceptance?
- Proposition: Consensus is decisive. Authority: None. Comment: Wikipedia holds itself out as an encyclopedia, not as a weather-vane.
- General comment: Is Wikipedia an encyclopedia or a platform for advocacy: I know there is a policy on this, but ultimately I have written this post because I considered the article on Manning late last week jeopardised my ability to robustly defend the intellectual integrity of Wikipedia as a global encyclopedia to family, friends and colleagues, or to continue enthusiastically to donate to Wikipedia. The quality of the reasoning I discovered on this page, of which I have provided some examples have not only validated but amplified the concerns the article itself originally raised. I am concerned some contributors may be trying to lead the debate or at the least failing to apply the high standards of rigour to their propositions and the authorities they are citing (or not, as the case may be) for those propositions.
Regards Teamkric
I received and e-mail purportedly from Teamkric asking me to post the comment above. I'm not going to make an assessment as to how relevant the comments are. If some other editor feels this section ought to be collapsed or moved, I would not oppose. NickCT (talk) 01:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
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