Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
Start a new discussion

User:Jan Arkesteijn and the misleading use of false colour versions of old paintings on Wikipedia transcluded from Commons

Example 1

Example 2

Jan Arkesteijn (talk · contribs)

I believe sanctions or a topic ban on this project are worth considering for the long term pattern of misleading edits by Jan Arkesteijn on Wikipedia, and in a slightly more complex way via Wikidata as infoboxes and reports may automatically transclude the (P18) image linked on Wikidata relating to the article subject.

The pattern of misleading use of images is under discussion at Commons:ANU, where anyone is free to add an opinion or provide further evidence.

As an example please refer to the multiple cases on the Commons Admin noticeboard, and the specific deletion request at Deletion_requests/File:Richard_Wilson_(1714-1782),_by_Anton_Raphael_Mengs.jpg where this diff shows Jan Arkesteijn replacing an official correct colour image of a painting from the National Museum of Wales with a false colour version on the article Richard Wilson (painter). Further research will show other examples of replacing museum quality images with misleadingly false colour versions, such as on Erasmus Darwin (replacing an official National Portrait Gallery image), these have not been researched for the discussion on Wikimedia Commons as that project's policies do not cover these types of rare inter-project disruption.

Thanks --Fæ (talk) 18:14, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Support. This user's esthetic disruption is extraordinary. See also [1]. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 15:53, 8 November 2018 (UTC).

• @Fæ: So, reviewing the situation...wow. Just to make sure I understand the situation, this user has been deceptively replacing images of historical paintings with deliberately falsified versions, for years, and in spite of multiple blocks, and has gone so far as to falsify EXIF data? And, when called out at Commons' AN, he simply lied and said he wasn't doing it? Is that really the situation? I'm seeing his conduct described at Commons as "vandalism", "forgery", and "fraud". I see the number of falsified images is potentially in the thousands, and that these falsified images are in place all over Wikipedias of all languages. I also see that Jan primarily contributes by adding images to articles here, as well as other language Wikipedias, something he can most certainly not be trusted doing. He edits a wide variety of projects. I'm strongly inclined to indef here, if there are no objections, but I suspect that a global ban for severe cross-wiki disruption might be a more appropriate measure.  Swarm  talk  21:50, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Pretty much. For years they uploaded their own recoloured versions of professional photographs of paintings from archives, museums and galleries, apparently thinking these were improvements by replacing authentic copies of aged old paintings with their digitally enhanced very pink faces, super blue skies or over brightened dark backgrounds. It was only in the last series of complaints and sample cases that it was highlighted that EXIF data was also their creation, so that clearly the casual viewer or reuser would be misled by whatever copyright statements were displayed with the EXIF. There are over 1,300 instances where a Public Domain Mark license has been misleadingly declared this way, yet the source institution has made no such declaration.

Though people can take their own photographs of paintings and release them on Commons, recolouring other people's professional photographs or archive quality photographs and failing to make that clear, and failing to upload the original, so if the source goes dead we can never work out if the image has been digitally altered, is seriously misleading regardless of our endless presumptions of good faith or the retrospectively declared intention. As this activity spans 10 years and these photographs were promoted on Wikidata as the "official" versions, it is unlikely that the encyclopaedia-worthy colour correct and professional versions of these artworks will ever be repaired across all the different language Wikipedias or Wikidata.

Without intending to brag, I am technically competent at examining EXIF data and tracking down original image sources, with my own track record of uploading over a million GLAM related archive quality photographs to Commons. However properly fixing one of the cases, including amending Wikidata and repairing global usage, can take me 15 minutes, so fixing several thousand is an unrealistic backlog for the limited Wikimedia Commons volunteer time we have available from those with the right types of skill or interest. In some cases repair will be impossible due to sources going offline in the years since upload. --Fæ (talk) 22:56, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support and how to globally indef and rollback their uploads? This is global digital cultural vandalism. Why just why? Legacypac (talk) 01:25, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment Is any image NOT a false-color image? The technology for reproducing colors using RGB falls short of perfection, and the appearance of colors on anyone's screen depends on adjustments on the machine they're using. Michael Hardy (talk) 19:19, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

  There is a big difference between adjusting your own photographs and tampering with official research quality photographs from archives that have been carefully taken to be as colour correct as technically possible. --Fæ (talk) 21:20, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

*Oppose - As I've supported Jans block on Commons I think it would be very unwise for me to close this, Anyway in a nutshell - Different project = Different rules, We don't mass apply blocks just because they've been blocked on 1 project, Although Jan has been replacing images here no one's really battered an eyelid and I doubt anyone will, Unless he starts replacing local images then a block (or any sanction) at present is unwarranted. –Davey2010^Talk 00:37, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• No one's suggesting we "mass apply blocks just because they've been blocked on 1 project". This is an extraordinary, perhaps unprecedented situation, in which a user has deceptively and willfully falsified the appearance of images on, potentially, thousands of articles, not only on the English Wikipedia, but on an untold number of other language Wikipedias. This is an extreme degree of cross-Wiki disruption, and the user can obviously not be trusted to edit in good faith here, so consequences should not automatically be restricted to Commons.  Swarm  talk  22:24, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Hi Swarm, Ah right sorry I just assumed he'd done this on a few articlse but it turns out [https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/summary.py?name=Jan+Arkesteijn&search=image&server=enwiki&max=500&ns= he may of done it on 100) and even then that tool is only looking for "image" meaning yeah there could be hundreds if not thousands of hidden changes.... –Davey2010^Talk 14:52, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

• I appreciate this is a bit late, but I think it important to record here that Fae's claims about EXIF, repeated by Swarm, are highly disputed and not shared by other Commons users. EXIF is just data, it isn't signed and isn't associated with an particular user or organisation. There's no such thing as "original" or "official" EXIF. The claims that Jan altered the EXIF to mislead are unproven and simply bad faith. Jan added useful information to the EXIF (title, creator, source url, copyright, etc) just as many Commons uploaders add on the File Description page. EXIF tags are the official way that professional photographers and agents annotate files with such information. It helps ensure the information is retained even when an image is dislocated from its source. We have absolutely no reason to believe that Jan was altering the EXIF for any other purpose than to be helpful and informative. On one batch of files, he got the version of CC BY mixed up and wrote a 4 rather than 3, which seemed to upset Fae greatly, leading to a ridiculous deletion request that was swiftly closed. I fully agree that Jan is a menace when it comes to colours, and the underhand way these artworks have been altered is consistent with a ban. -- Colin°^Talk 13:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Proposal: TBAN from files

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Jan Arkesteijn is indefinitely banned from uploading, modifying, or otherwise working with files, broadly construed.

• Support - I think it should go without saying that, at the bare minimum, this user cannot be trusted to continue working with files.  Swarm  talk  23:58, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support I think this should be implemented together with below so that if the editor ever does appeal their site ban, it's likely it will remain in place (of course the community could decide to revoke it when revoking the site ban, or implement one when revoking the site ban, but I think this sets a good precedent for them). Nil Einne (talk) 13:54, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support This may seem a strong remedy, however JA is active on other projects but appears unwilling to recognize the problems they have created, and has not lifted a finger to help with finding the original images or ensuring that Wikipedia(s) and Wikidata are using authentic professional photographs, rather than this-is-what-I-like-for-a-personal-desktop-wallpaper amateur versions that will be mistaken for the authentic professional photographs because they are sourced that way and have EXIF data that appears original. There has been no indication that behaviour will change in the future. --Fæ (talk) 14:28, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support as a minimum, this is seriously irresponsible behaviour. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:41, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Proposal: Site ban

Jan Arkesteijn is indefinitely banned from the English Wikipedia.

• Support - We do not know how many thousands of Wikipedia articles have been affected by this user's falsified images or on how many projects. We do know, however, that the number of images is likely in the thousands, and it can be presumed that many if not most of the images in question are in use at one or more Wikipedias. We know that this user's intent, even if it was ultimately to "improve" the images, was deliberate, subversive and malicious, and not only included falsifying the appearance of historic paintings in spite of blocks, and over the course of years, but falsifying EXIF data to misrepresent copyright status. The user has not been accountable for their actions, and actually denied that they were even doing it, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. And we don't know how long this will take to repair. I think they've completely and utterly destroyed the most fundamental level of trust that is required to edit here, and, as their disruption is widespread across many projects, they're probably in global ban territory, and banning them here, which not only is justified in its own right, would be a prerequisite to a global ban proposal.  Swarm  talk  23:58, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support per my support above. There is zero reason to trust a serial vandal. Legacypac (talk) 10:14, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support Absolutely indefensible with no hope of reliable rehabilitation. The followup question is: how do "we" clean this up? EEng 19:19, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support I don't really know what this editor was trying to do. But it seems to have caused significant harm. And the editor seems unable or unwilling to explain why they believed their edits were a benefit to wikipedia and what explanation they have offered has been confusing. The nature of reproduction of colours on device screens means it's questionable if there's any one right version. And sometimes e.g. a recent controversy over Doria Ragland comes to mind, it's in many ways just editors personal opinions of what colours most accurately reproduce something they probably didn't even see. But if someone has gone to great effort to reproduce the colours as best as they can, any change would need to start from the same base. It's quite doubtful that Jan Arkesteijn saw the original copies of each of these images and then used a quality colour corrected device to modify any images to reproduce them. Therefore there changes seem to be just random personal changes. It's also not possible that Jan Arkesteijn has seen the real person and is trying to improve the images to reproduce how look in real life. (Likewise it's quite doubtful they've seen a bunch of different images and descriptions of the person and are trying to reproduce that as far as possible.) Nil Einne (talk) 13:52, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support With the normal conventions that a later appeal would be handled in good faith, perhaps to allow non-image related contributions. --Fæ (talk) 14:29, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support There is precedent for such an egregious breach of trust; supporting site ban per that. ——SerialNumber54129 14:40, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support - Going by this tool so far he's changed over 150 articles .... ofcourse that tool is only looking for "image" meaning he could've continued with either different edit summaries or none at all, I have no trust in this editor at all - There is a clear deception here, A major clean up is more than likely going to need to be done. –Davey2010^Talk 14:56, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support per everyone's reasoning above, but noting that any eventual return to editing should not automatically include the ability to do image work, and a separate image ban would need to be addressed separately. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Get rid of them already. Strong support. They're just like OberRanks, deliberately falsifying info. No benefit to the project. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). This message was left at 08:19, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support as this user is a serial vandal who isn't here to benefit the project. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 09:56, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support And why does a number change on the blackboard in these two images: main image and changes [2][3] Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:20, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• That number appears to be a phone number. It is not the point of the picture, which is to show the human subject and so my impression is that this was a good faith update made for privacy reasons per WP:BLPPRIVACY, "Articles should not include postal addresses, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers...". Andrew D. (talk) 11:09, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

You are right, and I know that. I've been looking at those bluish commons pics for the last hour. :) Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:41, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support And wit that I think a site ban is the only way. That is not only an aesthetic choice, that is blatant alteration.Slatersteven (talk) 10:24, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose There's no such thing as true colour because that depends on the incident light and other factors. In the sample comparison pictures above, the various versions all appear to be different and the only one that is grossly different is the yellowish one that was taken by a different editor. My impression is that this work was all done in good faith. If Commons wants to make a fuss about this, that's their business and we should leave the matter to them. Andrew D. (talk) 11:09, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi, Andrew D.. Is this work done in good faith: [4] [5][6] It appears that he changed a blackboard number. That looks like vandalism to me. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:22, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Altering colour and changing content are not the same thing. You cannot change a number in good faith.Slatersteven (talk) 11:27, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

As explained above, that number appears to be a phone number. It is not the point of the picture, which is to show the human subject and so my impression is that this was a good faith update made for privacy reasons per WP:BLPPRIVACY, "Articles should not include postal addresses, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers...". Andrew D. (talk) 11:32, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Its a publicly available photo (and for all we know was altered before release). There is not more justification for altering this then there would be for altering a direct quote. This went way beyond just an aesthetic choice.Slatersteven (talk) 11:36, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support I've been holding my tongue on this for two weeks. I honestly can't believe the editor wasn't indeffed within 24 hours of this thread being opened, let alone that anyone would still be opposing this proposal so late in the game. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:31, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes but consensus is clearly towards siteban. We are almost done. Excelse (talk) 14:05, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support what would be a well deserved ban. -Roxy, the Prod. wooF 14:44, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• Strong support as per above, particularly convinced by Swarm's rationale and Hijiri 88's statement. Re-touched files could have been uploaded separately if there was an actual need for it... I am quite literally left without words to describe this. The damage done is probably near to irreparable, and the breach of trust is so serious I can't really think of any scenario where Jan Arkesteijn could (or should) be trusted to touch any file ever again. Clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. Impru20^talk 15:15, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support, but given that this is a rare crosswiki disruption situation involving enwiki, commons, and wikidata, and probably others as a result, we should be posting this ban discussion at meta for a ban from all Wikimedia projects. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:19, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support, total ban, complete crosswiki discussion as per Ivanvector, this sort of attack undermines the credibility of the encyclopedia so much as to be an existential threat.Jacona (talk) 15:27, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support total crosswiki ban- The damage deliberately inflicted by this user will take a lot of time and effort to clean up. They shouldn't be allowed to touch this project again. Reyk _YO! 20:00, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swapping or removing affected photographs

Opening this section per "address the issue of the user's contributions" which needs some discussion and agreement as to the best process possible.

Based on the analysis on Commons, most of which has been done by myself so far, there are three different types of repair that may be needed:

1. Swap - Where the original professional photograph of an artwork already exists on Commons, global usage should be swapped over and if there are no other considerations, the misleading version can be put up for deletion as being out of scope for Wikimedia Commons on the basis of having no realistic educational value. Example File:Nymphs and Satyr, by William-Adolphe Bouguereau.jpg has been globally replaced with File:William-Adolphe Bouguereau (1825-1905) - Nymphs and Satyr (1873) HQ.jpg and this Deletion Request created.
2. Overwrite - Where the source is still available, and has not been uploaded as a separate file on Commons, the false-colour current version can be overwritten on Commons. An overwrite rather than uploading as a separate file is preferable, as Wikidata and all transcluding Wikipedias are repaired without using up more volunteer time. Example File:Witches going to their Sabbath (1878), by Luis Ricardo Falero.jpg was overwritten with false colour versions from 2011 and, probably due to age, is in use on in a dozen different language Wikipedias; the file was overwritten 2 weeks ago and this immediately restored all projects to the best colour-correct representation.
3. Non-artworks - There are many photographic portraits of people uploaded with significant colour changes. Repairs may not be needed, either the changes are minor saturation differences that few people are going to care about, or the photographs are in black and white. However especially where the photograph is of an obviously "official" nature such as the portrait used on Jane Garvey (aviation administrator) which came from the Smithsonian and so is effectively assured as accurate by the Smithsonian, the changes need to be manually checked and the volunteer doing the checks needs to be assured that if they decide that the Jan Arkesteijn version is oddly coloured, and overwrite with a more authentic colour original, that they will be supported by the community.

It would be of great help if someone could construct a coordinating burn-down list of affected articles and images that need checks, which would help ensure that checks only need to be done once if different volunteers are looking at cases.

Doing these repairs needs reassurance that on Wikipedias, Commons and Wikidata that the changes are within policy and considered reasonable non-controversial maintenance. There has yet to be a consensus that Wikidata entries should all be repaired, yet this is a critical fix since infoboxes on articles in multiple Wikipedias are entirely reliant on Wikidata linking to the most representative and accurate image for an artwork or person.

This is a rare event, yet the impact is wide. As Jan Arkesteijn has used Wikidata to promote their false-colour images, there may need to be further policy-based consideration of whether we are happy that being entirely reliant on Wikidata for auto-transclusion of images in infoboxes across Wikipedias, when there is no process for ensuring that the images are accurate or even deliberately misleading, which leaves Wikipedia both open to image vandalism and the gradual erosion of encyclopaedic reliability, even though zero edits may be made on this project that would ever show this is happening. Specifically this is not a Wikimedia Commons problem, as Commons simply hosts images without judgement so long as they are of potential educational value. Using Wikidata to link to, say, an oddly oversaturated photograph of a politician to make their hair more orange, is not against any Wikidata policy or Commons policy and is not currently called "vandalism". --Fæ (talk) 10:30, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• The idea that there's one definitive true colour for a painting still seems wrong. Here's a fresh news item which demonstrates how paintings age and are restored, so their colours are constantly changing. "...it was compromised by an old degraded varnish which had yellowed with age. Removing it revealed how Gainsborough included touches of blue in the sitter’s hair and around his eyes, reflecting the gorgeous blue of his jacket." Andrew D. (talk) 16:17, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Yet there will still be an "official" version, the issue is alterations made not by art historians or restorers, but phtotoshoping a phtoto to "improve it".Slatersteven (talk) 16:47, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

The official version of a piece of fine art is the original artwork. This will vary in appearance depending on how it is presented, especially the lighting. Any photograph is then a secondary approximation and it's just about impossible to take one now without some form of digital processing., unless you use a raw image format. The image will then be transformed further by the compression algorithm, scaling, display technology and the lighting in the place of viewing. For an example of the sort of issues and compromises that then result, see  Talk:Doria_Ragland#Photo, where there's debate about exactly how and whether to display a still from an official video. Photography is a complex business but ordinary readers and editors now routinely use colour filters, bokeh and other camera tricks every time they take a snap on their phone. And it's not clear that we have any strict policy about about this. For example, see the page Image dos and don'ts which states that "In general, when working with images: ... Clean up images: crop, color-correct, etc.". It is outrageous that an editor can follow such advice in good faith and get banned for it. Andrew D. (talk) 17:26, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Andrew, how about taking some time to reflect on what the above consensus is, and what the super majority of considered opinions are, and the factual case evidence presented, before taking this discussion about repairing the encyclopaedic value of Wikipedia on an avoidable and unhelpful tangent? This was not someone in good faith taking their own instagram photographs of their dinner and adjusting the exposure afterwards, this was someone actively refusing to engage with the consensus view that their recolouring archive photographs was damaging the educational value of the original archive quality and research quality photographs, in many cases taken by named professionals who are employed by GLAMs precisely because they know how to photograph and light artworks in the best possible way. In some cases the photographs are taken by auctioneers where their professional and commercial reputation relies on representing the works in as faithful and true a way a possible. As a current example, this upload of the original has been on Commons for 6 years, in all that time Sotheby's have been falsely represented by this incompetent representation of their catalogue photograph, which turns the green chair aquamarine and makes the Earl's skin so pink and red that anyone researching the history of British painters might think that Henry Raeburn was a bit clueless. It is unfortunate that this bizarrely recoloured photograph is used to illustrate Earl of Hyndford, with no warning that it is in no way a faithful reproduction of the original. Nobody who appreciates Wikimedia's top level mission to deliver knowledge through Wikipedia, Commons, Wikidata etc. could support any activity which undermines and threatens the quality of that knowledge, providing a backdoor for a form of fakenews rather than a shared best possible representation of history and facts.

P.S. you may have missed the detailed and extended 2016 discussion on Commons which resulted in Jan Arkesteijn's restriction against overwrites there. The views were consistent and firmly expressed, so "an editor can follow such advice in good faith and get banned for it" is over-egging it, as Jan Arkesteijn can hardly claim that their uploads in the past two years were ever non-controversial. --Fæ (talk) 18:23, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• The Commons discussion indicated that Arkesteijn was tweaking the colour-balance to counter the problem of yellowing varnish, 'his tendency to shift the colour to blue, presumably because he doesn't like the fact the canvass has yellowed with age ... Restoring or fixing colours due to ageing of the painting should definitely be allowed. ... I understand that this is not an issue for a ban, but regards disagreement over what it means to have "original colours".' As I understand it, it is quite normal for editors who work on old images to put a lot of effort into fixing up their imperfections – removing blemishes, fixing creasing and so forth. If the colours of a painting have aged, then it is reasonable to do something about this and the professionals do this too, as the news item about the Gainsborough painting indicates. My impression remains that this is a technical disagreement rather than a case of malicious vandalism. Anyway, is there some clear guidance somewhere as to what is or isn't permissible when uploading antique images of this sort. The page I cited above – Image dos and don'ts – says explicitly that such image cleanup is expected. Andrew D. (talk) 18:54, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

The information page mentions "color-correct", this was "color-damage". Had Jan Arkesteijn been able to work collegiately with others to understand why this was damaging to encyclopaedic or educational value, then we could have avoided a block or a ban discussion. --Fæ (talk) 19:41, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure that image do's and dont's apply to works of art it, it would apply to as poor image of it (after all we cannot upload an original copy). And as I said, we are not professional art restorers, we are blokes using a PC. In fact it is misleading as it does not look like the original. The only circumstances where image d&D would apply is an uploaded image of poor quality (to bring it in line with the original at a museum).Slatersteven (talk) 21:01, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

As I said in my support, if Jan Arkesteijn had access to the original paintings and had made their corrections based on their expertise with a colour corrected display etc with reference to the original paintings perhaps we could say there was a legitimate dispute over which ones more accurately represented the original content. Now if they don't have access to the original paintings but believe the versions produced by professionals do not accurately reflect the paintings as they were like when they were new, and they had the necessary expertise to try and correct these issues and had either come to the community and explained what they want to do and why and received consensus, or perhaps made new files where they clearly explained what they did and why and not tried to add them to anywhere except via proposing it on talk pages, then this would be okay. But this wasn't what happened. In fact, Jan Arkesteijn doesn't even seem to have been willing to properly explain what they were doing. Nil Einne (talk) 22:54, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Question: If the "false-color" images were clearly labelled in their titles as being so, with an explanation in the image information on the order of "Colors altered to simulate what the original painting might have looked like before the yellowing of the varnish applied to it after the fact", and the images were uploaded as separate files, not overwriting the official images, would these be sufficient measures? Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:11, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Hilo48 and Timeshift9

EDITOR’S NOTE: The following is written about a week after I created this block. I no longer support a full-block or topic-block for @Timeshift9: after a careful consideration of other editors views. Though I remain firm in my conviction that @HiLo48: should be blocked for 3-6 months. Refer to my statements on each of them below for my reasoning. Global-Cityzen (talk) 06:11, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm requesting Timeshift and Hilo be temporarily blocked for some wanton and blatant Wikipedia:Disruptive editing, chiefly with respect to their continued deletion of material in the Wentworth by-election, 2018 article, specifically their refusal to engage or even offer civil points of difference in the article's talk page.

• The history page shows examples of Timeshift repeatedly editing in ways that make it difficult to directly compare his reversions of my and other editor's edits (which have added information to the infobox). For instance he'll make a minor [7], then the very next one will be the revert.

• At the very least general history page shows how often they (sincere changed to TS9) is willing to violate the WP:3RR rule.

• Timeshift is guilty of Wikipedia:Tendentious editing, most notably in this instance on the talk page: Oh look, results aren't final/are still changing! I love being proven right...! :) Silly troublemakers proven wrong. Feeling very smug :D Timeshift (talk) 02:24, 7 November 2018 (UTC); an edit that was made two days after the page was finally settling down and is blatantly tenditious and WP:POINTY, much to the frustration of the majority of editors who are seeking to IMPROVE the page and UPDATE figures when appropriate rather than simply DELETE the figures in the infobox

• Both users misrepresent alleged precedent in relation to the infobox (see this section of the talk page and when exposed to this, simply ignore and pursue their deletions

• Neither engage in consensus building with multiple editors, and are now simply taking ownership of the page.

Hilo has form, repeatedly. Global-Cityzen (talk) 06:42, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Can this please be quickly turned into a boomerang for the lies and irrelevancies it contains? And the forum shopping? I really don't want to have to go into detail on every piece of nonsense there. HiLo48 (talk)

These "lies and irrelevancies" accusation is precisely what HiLo has done on the page's talk page, whenever he is asked to justify his and Timeshift's edits to remove information from the box. Yet again he has form in this regard; this time at another page. Global-Cityzen (talk) 06:57, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

And now the latest 3RR violation by Timeshift (here). Global-Cityzen (talk) 07:20, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

There has been a massive amount of discussion re this article. We have reached a point where both Timeshift9 and I are being accused of not having discussed things that we definitely have discussed. I can accept someone not remembering everything I have written, but I cannot abide false accusations that I have never written it at all. That is were discussion has gone. We are both being asked to repeat points we have both made before, as if demanding this is a winning argument. We have both, at times, given up on discussion at that article because of the toxic atmosphere, but it's hard to forever ignore what we see as poor content. I also have a life away from Wikipedia, and get rather sick of and don't really have time for having to repeat myself here. HiLo48 (talk) 07:24, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm accusing Timeshift and HiLo of repeatedly ignoring prompts that directly challenge their reasons for editing. If one reads through the talk page, they will note that both users' objections are responded to in substance, namely that;

• No precedent exists for not including figures in an Australian election infobox, as User:Impru20 pointed out on the talk page: "about the alleged "precedent", I've found that this is bogus at best. Batman by-election, 2018, for instance, didn't abide to such a "precedent", nor did Australian federal election, 2016 or others. Further, it is not that other by-election articles actually did: it is just that most of those did not see their infoboxes added until later." No substantial point was made by either of these users in response to this expose.
• When asked why they would advocate continuously deleting verifiable information by the same user, neither responded.
• We are not asking them repeat points made before, rather asking them to present any argument for the exclusion of verifiable information in an infobox whose central purpose is to convey that information to the reader

And unfortunately, when challenged on these issues of substance, HiLo simply engages in ad hominen attacks on the user, saying they are extolling in inaccuracy WITHOUT demonstrating how. Whilst Timeshift simply waits 2 days for the discussion to settle before launching into the same disruptive editing process. Global-Cityzen (talk) 07:39, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Lies. Yet again. HiLo48 (talk) 09:03, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I recommend that yas open up an Rfc at the article-in-question, in order to settle the content dispute. GoodDay (talk) 07:45, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Thankyou, I've done that (here). Global-Cityzen (talk) 08:33, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

@Timeshift9: has just reverted the same content for a FOURTH TIME IN 30 MINUTES simply saying he "disagrees". If that's not an example of edit warring I don't know what is! These numbers have been up for at least two days without interruption, it's just some of the most abhorrent behaviour you could imagine. Global-Cityzen (talk) 08:01, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

• Apparently the issue concerns whether an infobox should be included at Wentworth by-election, 2018, and if so, what it should contain. It seems the issue was raised a week ago at the relevant wikiproject and my brief skim of that suggests there is no consensus for inclusion. Enthusiasm is not a good substitute for patience. The OP's statements about "refusal to engage" and suggestions of incivility are blatantly incorrect. Johnuniq (talk) 08:27, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I've applied protection for a few days, that should allow the election results to firm up and we can go from there. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:56, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Awaiting final results is really only a small part of the issues with this article. HiLo48 (talk) 09:06, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

As an uninvolved bystander, this is not a helpful step. Getting aggressive with other editors about an infobox is a needless escalation of a dispute that was already fairly pointless to begin with. Everyone play nice. Global-Cityzen, you've been making some absolutely phenomenal (and very badly needed) contributions on women's sport recently - may I suggest that it might be a better usage of your time than this dispute? The Drover's Wife (talk) 09:03, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

• On Timeshift9, they have been carelessly reverting everything and anyone not complying with their views, even reportedly conducting at least eight reverts from four different users within a 24-hour period (up to ten depending on whether you would consider other minor edits), namely: [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15]. Note that this behaviour continued even after being notified twice on it ([16] [17]). The edit warring has continued up to the current day, with new violations of 3RR (in total, five reverts before the article's lockdown: [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]) and including some mocking/provocation to some of the users involved in the discussion ([23] [24] [25]). To be fair with everybody, though, it should also be noted that the OP (Global-Cityzen) has also violated 3RR today as a result of getting involved in such edit warring, with five reverts, but this should not obscure the fact that there is a serious behavioural issue with these two users.
• The biggest issue here, however, is with HiLo48, who has been openly disruptive from the start, resorting to using arguments from ignorance and proof by assertion once and once again with a clear WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour (note that it was them who started the discussion in the first place and that while starting a discussion is perfectly ok, the ensuing behaviour shown while engaging other people there is not). This includes:
  • Persistent personal attacks and general incivility, continuously resorting on commenting the contributor for opposing reality or "the truth" ([26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32]) while showing a rather patronizing behaviour to those not agreeing with them (specially and most notoriously with Onetwothreeip). HiLo48 even went as far as to enter into vandalism accusations without caring to explain why ([33] [34] [35]), despite repeated warnings to either bring such accusations to the proper venue with actual evidence or just cast them off ([36] [37] [38]). They also threatened to report me for one comment they allegedly saw as "insulting", but curiously, just like the "vandalism", they never did it ([39]).
  • More WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS ([40] [41] [42]).
  • Apparent failure to understand what discussion and talk pages are for. This includes a general refusal to engage in constructive consensus-building and persistent refusal to address/reply to issues raised by others, seemingly failing to understand why they should bother to reply (while concurrently acting as if others had never addressed any issues raised by him) ([43] [44] [45]). Note that this has continued even after this case was opened ([46] [47]). At some point of the discussion they also accused other of misrepresenting them, but never actually explained how nor addressed concerns raised at their accusations of misrepresentation.
  • Disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, by:
    1. Suddenly shifting the discussion focus to issues not even raised at first so as to purposely hinder any consensus-building attempt aimed at preserving the infobox (most notoriously ([48] [49] [50]), raising the issues of Phelps' pic looking "appalling" and a alleged failure to understand what colours do mean in infoboxes, despite party labels being shown just below (this alone would raise some competence concerns, but nonetheless it would be an issue with either the pics or the infobox template as a whole, not for the particular infobox used in Wentworth by-election, 2018. This was pointed to them (and was the main motive behind the discussion being centralized) to no avail).
    2. Mutilating the infobox to make it truly useless and force a point on how "useless" it actually was ([51]), a fact they have not even tried to hide ([52]).
    3. Deliberate withdrawal from the centralized discussion at Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board#Infoboxes in by-election articles without addressing any of the content concerns raised there, then moving the discussion again to Talk:Wentworth by-election, 2018#Still Infoboxing in order to raise the same exact issues that led to the discussion being centralized.
  • I could spent more time putting more examples or explaining this even more in-depth, but I think this is enough for it. Further, after some research it transpires that issues on HiLo48's behaviour are very recurring, for the exact same reasons as depicted above (or even others: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16)
  • Their own block log is troubling, and as far as I have checked, if it is impossible to find any issues between January 2015 and March 2018 is just because they remained inactive for that whole period. Their own userpage is very disturbing, being full of attacks on Wikipedia as a whole, a notorious disregard for civility policies or some other really really disturbing statements against Wikipedia's workings.
  • Foremost of all, Competence is required to communicate with others and present rationales when questioned by others, to collaborate with other editors, defend their editing when asked to do so and, obviously, to not ignoring some of the most basic Wikipedia policies and guidelines. It looks like this has been an issue with HiLo48 for years, and it seems obvious that HiLo48 is not able to learn from their mistakes and adapt. Refusing to engage with civility with other users, or even acknowledging that they cannot be "bothered" to discuss issues or even purposely provoking others for the sake of it, goes against the very essence of WP. But then, acknowledging a complete disregard for WP's workings is just unacceptable, and if they think they should not be here, nor are they here for contributing Wikipedia, then maybe they should not be here. Impru20^talk 16:45, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I have neither the time nor the energy to respond to that hate speech from someone clearly obsessed with me. How many lies and personal attacks can come from the keyboard of someone before they cop a boomerang? HiLo48 (talk) 21:21, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

HiLo48, none of that is "hate speech"; it is neutral, accurate reporting supported by evidence. None of it is "lies", as each statement is supported by several diffs which bear out the statement. None of the statements are "personal attacks", either; they are all neutral observations. It seems to me that your modus operandi when you disagree with someone more than once is to attack them personally and to accuse them of personal attacks, lies, vandalism, etc. Sooner or later this long-term behavioral pattern on your part is going to end up getting you very long-term blocked or site-banned due to an inability to edit collaboratively and due to creating disruption instead. Softlavender (talk) 04:56, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I see it differently. HiLo48 (talk) 05:02, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, of course you would say that. And you haven't refuted the dozens of diffs the editor presented, or offered any proof that what he stated is "hate speech", "lies", and "personal attacks". Attacking others and making baseless comments may seem like the easy way out for you, but it just makes the other editor's case look perfectly accurate. Softlavender (talk) 05:07, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Not to objective, open minded editors. HiLo48 (talk) 05:14, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

In other words, you still can't refute anything the editor wrote and you still can't offer any proof that what he stated is "hate speech", "lies", and "personal attacks"; instead you are continuing to cast aspersions. Softlavender (talk) 05:17, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

It seems to me that's precisely what you're doing. HiLo48 (talk) 06:02, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Yet another personal attack, which seems to be the only way you respond to evidence-based statements about yourself and requests that you actually make your case. The more you post "Nope" (edit summary) along with a personal attack, the worse you look. As Impru20 has noted, your recent disruptive behavior is not isolated, and has been reported many times on ANI, and you have been blocked five times for personal attacks. Softlavender (talk) 06:16, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

This is pointless. I don't have the time to respond to that litany of alleged crimes on my part, nor do I have the time to catalog all the sins of the gang who disagreed with me. I do note that the environment at the article became so toxic that many experienced editors gave up, and let you guys just go for it for a while. That left a short term majority of people from one side of the debate, certainly not representative of the usual editing community for Australian political articles. Being in a majority is never evidence of being right. It's really just a chance to bully those in the minority.

Meanwhile, Admins have shown very little interest in this complaint. They have told people to go back to the article's Talk page for an RfC. This is a content dispute. I suggest you go to that RfC. HiLo48 (talk) 06:24, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I am not involved in the article, so I am not "you guys". What Impru20 posted was not a "litany of alleged crimes", it was a well-evidenced report of your recent disruptive behavior, which you responded to by falsely calling his report "hate speech", "lies", and "personal attacks". This is your pattern, and it will get you into sanctions if it continues. Softlavender (talk) 06:36, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

This discussion does pretty well in summarizing HiLo's behaviour. Bring any argument to them, no matter how well explained or referenced, that if it is against their views it will be met with outright unmotivated opposition, condescendention, incivility and a refusal to "understand" what the problem is, as well as a total disregard of WP:AGF. Impru20^talk 06:58, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

How can I assume good faith of editors who falsely accuse me of having NEVER said things I have definitely said? And who created such a toxic discussion environment that many experienced editors stop discussing at that page? HiLo48 (talk) 07:35, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Please indicate, with diffs, where editors have falsely accused you of having never said things you definitely said. Softlavender (talk) 07:38, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

No. I really can't be bothered. If you are looking at this objectively, you will have seen how much discussion there has been. A massive amount. I wouldn't make an absolute claim about anything anyone had said or not said in that pile of now fairly useless trash. It was rather silly of those who disagreed with me to think they could. HiLo48 (talk) 07:45, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

In other words, yet another refusal to back up your claims about other editors. And this: "It was rather silly of those who disagreed with me to think they could." is borderline block-worthy, as it points up your refusal to edit or discuss collaboratively. Softlavender (talk) 07:56, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't think there is much more that needs to be said here but I find the reverting of many more times than three in a day to be very concerning. The poor discourse on the talk page is a problem, but the constant reverting seriously compromises the editing process. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I am not condoning Edit warring, but avoiding the appearance of doing so is much easier when you create a toxic editing environment, discouraging the majority of those who disagree with you from even trying. This leaves you and just a couple of others with identical views that any new editor must confront. HiLo48 (talk) 00:12, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Have you ever made more than three reverts of the article in a 24 hour period? Onetwothreeip (talk) 01:02, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I have no idea about timeshitft, but having just commented on the RFC and seeing HiLo48's reactions to anyone who disagrees with him (who appear to be in the majority) I think that there is a problem with him. This is a case of tendentious editing.Slatersteven (talk) 10:06, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

HiLo has indeed been a frequent offender when it comes to civility issues, both on main space and project space; I believe he's even had an RFC/U on his conduct in the past. That said, he's unrelenting and inveterate to those said issues, attributing these to cultural differences, and I doubt that blocks or sanctions of any sort will induce him to change his behavior, if his screeds on his user talk page are anything to go by. Either we accept that he's going to just be uncivil, or we look at the serious possibility of a community ban.--WaltCip (talk) 12:12, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Or we have a series of rolling topic bans, this time form Australasian politics. This edit warring over such a trivial matter is an indicator of a very severe battleground (but not in a POV pushy but rather "I HAVE SPOKEN" kind of way) mentality that is hugely disruptive and wasted a lot of eds time that could have been better employed.Slatersteven (talk) 16:15, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Thinking about it, this should apply to both parties, one for edit warring the the other for incivility, both for battleground mentality.Slatersteven (talk) 18:26, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

@Global-Cityzen: Can you clarify whether you meant to suggest HiLo48 was violating 3RR? I thought you did but maybe you were simply using singular they. I had a quick look and didn't see any examples of HiLo48 violating 3RR in Wentworth by-election, 2018 Nil Einne (talk) 16:21, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Since there's an Rfc now occurring at said article, these block requests should now be considered moot. GoodDay (talk) 03:43, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

They shouldn't. One thing is the content dispute (which is what is being addressed with the RfC) and another one is the behavioural problem (which is continuing, at least from HiLo48, in the RfC or even in this very same thread). Impru20^talk 06:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

This is way too extreme of a form of WP:IDGAF from User:HiLo48. It's really inappropriate for a ANI discussion about your civility. —JJB^ers 15:24, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Trust me, it would be way worse if he was writing real replies. As noted above, this is nothing new for him and it's never going to change. We can follow GoodDay's suggestion and consider the block requests moot, but that would just be kicking the can down the road because the behavioral issues are just as glaring as ever. Lepricavark (talk) 15:35, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Then a block is needed as it is preventative not punative. It is supposed to prevent the kind of behavior we are seeing. If it is accepted that his behavior is wrong, but he is not going to change no matter how much we ask then a block (for now make it a topic ban, maybe that will get through) is the only answer. What we must not do is accept policy beaching actions on the grounds of "well what can we do?", otherwise what the hell is the point of having them. How can it be fair to have rules that only apply to some users?15:54, 9 November 2018 (UTC)Slatersteven (talk)

I just noticed this on their talk page, [53], it seems that they got pretty uncivil to this user. They also accuse them of vandalism in the edit summary as well. —JJB^ers 16:40, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

I've only now noticed that talk page. I don't appreciate being accused of conspiring with other editors when they've done that themselves, per User_talk:HiLo48#Wentworth_by-election,_2018. This section has gone long enough, can we get a determination already? Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:14, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed that until now as well... and now I also noticed this after digging out a little further ([54]). So I now understand this reply from HiLo48 where they accused me of having "clones". Disturbing.

Further, looks like they won't stop their incivility elsewhere even with this report ongoing ([55]). Impru20^talk 22:24, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

I would recommend a general block then if the incivility isn't even just on the Australian elections pages. They seem to be generally incivil to multiple places (including the one you linked). —JJB^ers 00:40, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

What more needs to be said. It's hi time hi lo is blocked indefinitely. He is here only to disrupt and has a history of incivility and personal attacks and edit warring as long as anyone in the history of Wikipedia. Block him before he does any more damage to the project. No one will miss him and his contributions.Merphee (talk) 09:53, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

An observation. The problem with making such wild and sweeping statements as that is that it rather encourages examination of one's own contributions. For instance, your 400 edits to articles might be mentioned. IMHO of course. ——SerialNumber54129 10:05, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Merphee, please do not attempt to "fight fire with fire". It's one thing to make observations that raise concerns about specific conduct, and it's quite another to make blanket statements about another user being generally useless and a caliber of person that "no one will miss". It's even more inappropriate to contemplate their motives as being entirely predicated in trying to disrupt the project; when you make that implication, you are essentially saying they are here for no other reason than to troll the project, and that kind of accusation should not be made unless you are prepared to make a case with substantial evidence--you know, one of the very things Hilo has been called out for not doing himself here. Furthermore, it's an absurd assertion in these circumstances; whatever legitimate grievances may be raised here with regard to Hilo's conduct, it is abundantly clear that they care about the topics they edit and are not here to troll the project. Lastly, "clever" little turns of phrase like "hi time to block Hi lo" are not productive or useful; they contribute nothing but snark that can inflame an already antagonistic process--if you cannot contribute your insights here in a sober tone when criticizing another user's behaviour, please do not comment at all. Snow ^{let's rap} 21:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

"hi time to block Hi lo" are not productive or useful" I do agree with that point you made. I shouldn't have said that. However I completely disagree with everything else you just said. That is my opinion based on HiLo's long term incivility, bullying, throwing around accusation after accusation with no no basis, chasing new editors away, harassment, hounding and so forth. You are entitled to your opinion Snow Rise, and I am entitled to mine. I believe he probably cares about his point of view on article's he edits, but there is no way I could possibly believe based on the hard evidence over countless interactions with countless editors, HiLo cares about editors who may disagree with him. And frankly him caring about the article has nothing to do with it. It is his bullying, personal attacks and incivility that has landed him here. Again. But I respect your opinion. You need to also respect mine. Please refer to Softlavender's excellent description of HiLo's incivility below, if you are in any doubt.Merphee (talk) 03:52, 12 November 2018 (UTC)  

Of course it's your opinion and of course you are entitled to it, but some opinions are not to be shared, as a matter of policy and long-standing community consensus. For starters, you shouldn't be detailing your speculation regarding his motivations--your comments should be focused on his conduct, not your guesswork as to the psychology behind it. And saying that he is here to troll without providing evidence that clearly established such a bad faith motivation is also beyond the scope of acceptable commentary. Both of those principles are codified in WP:NPA. Clearly if I wasn't convinced there are behavioural issues with Hilo's conduct, I would not have introduced the proposal that he be blocked below, or noted my endorsement of criticisms by other editors, after I had read through the thread and followed up on the many diffs and links. But there's a right way and a wrong way to do that and your approach was needlessly personalized and aggressive, and more likely to undercut your points than to bolster your case that Hilo needs restraining, because it makes it look like he had an active foil in any of those discussions in which you may have taken part, and undercuts the perceived neutrality of your comments here. Snow ^{let's rap} 05:24, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

You keep using the word "troll" which I never said he was. However when there is such widespread incivility toward so many editors on so many different articles over such a long period of time and he is so aware of policy I fail to see how HiLo's conduct is not highly disruptive. However having said that I do think my comments were needlessly personalised and aggressive and I take your point in that regard Snow Rise. In hindsight I shouldn't have even commented at all and in fact should have stayed well out of this debate. So this is where I will close my mouth and step away.Merphee (talk) 05:53, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Been through an investigation and came out clean and it was because of Hi lo's incivility and personal attacks. Don't appreciate your comment dude. May need to go looking through your me thinks. It is as plain as day from comments here that HiLo has attacked and caused havoc since he's been here. I'm entitled to my opinion. I'm NOT on trial here SerialNumber so keep your opinion to your self! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merphee (talk • contribs) 10:14, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Ah, civility, yes; the irony is duly noted. And please remember to sign your posts, Merphee. ——SerialNumber54129 11:13, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Merphee is entirely correct. Here is a prime example from just three months ago:

Merphee removed an uncited, unattributed POV statement from The Australian that had been tagged for three years: [56]. HiLo48 went straight to Merphee's usertalk to harass him: [57]. Merphee added back part of the material he had removed: [58]. HiLo48 inserted an extremely POV quotation into the article: [59]. Merphee opened a neutral discussion on the article's talkpage about the POV quote: [60]. HiLo48's response was "Stop destroying the article" and he continued to deflect, bicker, and ridicule: [61]. Merphee

correctly removed the quote and attempted to summarize it instead: [62]. HiLo48 reverted [63], and failed to neutrally respond to the issues Merphee brought up about it, instead bickering, casting aspersions, and making demands: [64]. Therefore Merphee engaged in WP:DR by opening a thread on WP:RSN: WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 246#The Monthly. HiLo48 falsely accused Merphee of forum-shopping: [65], [66], and then opened an ANI thread falsely accusing Merphee of forum-shopping: [67]. -- Softlavender (talk) 12:11, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Just so. ——SerialNumber54129 20:05, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Link to the full ANI dissusion that Softlavender mentioned at the end of their message. —JJB^ers 04:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Topic ban for Hilo48

From Australian politics in the hope they get the message. Slatersteven (talk) 10:17, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: I think this is feasible, but I don't think HiLo48's problematic behavior is limited to Australian politics. I think a very very long block (3 to 6 months or indef) is what is needed, because as is evidenced above, he has no intention of stopping his abuse of other editors. I think ArbCom is going to be the next stop for this editor if this isn't solved/stopped here. Softlavender (talk) 12:17, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

True, but maybe the issue is the attitude of "well we do not know what to do so lets do nothing" had engendered an attitude that he can do as he likes. If he is sent a clear message that enough is enough and there are actions we can (and will) take it may cause him to rethink this attitude.Slatersteven (talk) 14:31, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support something is better than nothing. Lepricavark (talk) 15:02, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support I would also support a full block. —JJB^ers 17:01, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment – a little better than nothing, but I would see it as ineffective. Overall I'll have to agree with Softlavender: this extends far beyond the topic of Australian politics. A prime example would be the behaviour exhibited in this same thread ([68] [69] or [70] as examples); the recent dispute with Merphee in The Australian pointed out by Softlavender; the activity at Talk:Gasoline (concurrent with this report being ongoing, [71]); a recent breach of WP:3RR at G.I. Generation (also concurrent in time with this report, [72] [73] [74] [75]); describing the "fuck off" expression as a "too useful a tool" to deliberately provoke other editors "and draw community attention" so that those other editors get sanctioned that way; the similar uncivil + BIT behaviour at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football ([76]); a call for not trusting admins for not using their sysop powers on "miscreants among their ranks"; or a possible canvassing attempt to influence the discussion at Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board#Infoboxes in by-election articles ([77]). This aside from the already spotted misconduct or the long-term concerns with their behaviour. At this point, I think that only a long-term or indef block would work. Impru20^talk 17:27, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support, but nevertheless recommend that this proposal be tabled in favour of a long-term block proposal, since every respondent to this proposal so far (of which I am about to become the fifth) seems to agree that a TBAN does not match the scope of the issues. I've been following this discussion for a few days, reserving comment. I've observed Hilo48 to be somewhat short in some of their responses in the past, but I hadn't any idea the problems ran this deep. But the pattern is well established by the numerous diffs provided by editors in good standing above, and clearly runs strong in recent interactions. The nature of Hilo's response to concerns above is itself problematic--particularly the back-and-forth with Softlavender that seems to cast a great deal of light upon Hilo's perspectives on limitations as to his conduct vis-a-vis civility and providing justification for their actions. No editor is immune from having their conduct scrutinized by the community, no matter how put-upon they may feel, and in particular, no editor is allowed to make accusations about the supposedly disruptive and bad-faith conduct of other editors without providing proof, particularly when those accusations regard supposed conduct touching upon such serious concerns as "hate speech", dishonesty/gamesmanship, and personal attack. The fact that Hilo steadfastly refuses to provide such evidence and yet simultaneously refuses to withdraw the comments in question is more than sufficient evidence to tell us that they do not feel that they need to comport with our policies where they don't feel it's "worth their time". That's an untenable attitude for for any community member to have with regard to their involvement on this project, and more than enough reason in itself to endorse a block here.

I understand Slatersteven's inclination towards the most targeted possible sanction, hoping that this will prompt a fundamental change in Hilo's approach, but I join the others who have responded to his proposal in observing that the conduct in question goes well beyond the topic area that would be covered, and that the problems are more about apparent hostility toward views contrary to Hilo's own (and a definite refusal to prioritize civil discourse in many instances) than they are about over-zealousness in that one area. Moreover, taking all of the evidence presented here in its entirety, I find it highly unlikely that Hilo will actually reform in that manner as a consequence of receiving that community response--much more likely, I think, is that it will feed into their "Wikipedia's administrator's and administrative spaces are corrupt and the community's priority's are ass backwards--that's why they are trying to get rid of me" mentality. I just don't see the likihood that they can be won over by a TBAN, and I think a significant block may be the only way to make clear that a long-term and basic change in approach to their response to disputes is going to be required of them--whether they accept the underlying philosophy or not. Softlavender, Lepricavark, JJBers, Impru20, I'll put forward the proposal myself, so if there are any sour feelings resulting, they can be directed at me; feel free to reiterate your thoughts above in an !vote below, or not, as per your present perspectives. Snow ^{let's rap} 20:02, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - Let's us be careful, that we're not seen as punishing an editor. GoodDay (talk) 21:36, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but my endorsement of some form of action definitely arises out of a desire to prevent further disruption, not punish prior conduct. And indeed, looking at the comments of others in the forgoing discussion, it seems that most have contemplated the community's possible responses in terms of prevention. Can you be more specific about what previous comments have prompted your concerns that participants in this discussion are being motivated by a desire to punish previous conduct rather than prevent further disruption? I followed pretty much every link in the discussion above before contemplating my own !vote, but if I am missing additional backstory here between those involved in the discussion, it could influence my own support for sanctions. Snow ^{let's rap} 22:19, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm lenient in these matters, unless it involves vandalism. GoodDay (talk) 22:24, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Ah, ok--understood. I disagree that we would appear punitive by acting in this instance, given the concerns expressed, but I understand where you are coming from; I just wanted to make sure I was not missing any additional context. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Snow ^{let's rap} 22:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Well it seems the consensus is to table this for a longer block. I have no objection to tabling this (this is not an endorsement of a longer block).Slatersteven (talk) 10:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Longterm block for Hilo48

Per comments above from contributors who feel that a topic ban does reach to the nature of the conduct in question here, I am proposing a block as an alternative. The reasons expressed for preferring a block regard the fact that there is a perception of incivlity and general tendentiousness in Hilo48's interactions with multiple editors over a significant span of time, and a hostility in this discussion towards the notion that they may wish to reexamine their conduct, particularly as regards WP:AGF during disputes and making accusations against other editors that are not supported by evidence. The first editor to propose a longterm block contemplated one as long as six months--I think that may be excessive, but respondents can reach their own conclusions as to the particulars. Snow ^{let's rap} 20:02, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support as nom, per my thoughts expressed in the proposal above and recommending a block of 2-3 months in duration. Snow ^{let's rap} 20:02, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support this proposal as preferable to the one above. A topic ban is far less likely to be effective. Lepricavark (talk) 20:27, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support as per Snow's and my own thoughts so far. My impression based on the provided evidence is that a TBAN would just lead to HiLo's belligerence being re-directed elsewhere. A block is probably the only way forward at this stage. Impru20^talk 20:44, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - Let's be careful that we're not seen as being punitive in nature. GoodDay (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support block of at least 3 to 6 months or indef. (His last block was for one month [78]; standard block escalation would be no less than 3 months.) As is evidenced above, HiLo48 has no intention of stopping his abuse of other editors. I think ArbCom is going to be the next stop for this editor if this isn't solved/stopped here. This is most decidedly not a punitive block; it is a preventative block preventing abuse of other editors -- there's no telling how many editors HiLo48 has driven off of articles or off of the site itself, and we absolutely cannot allow that to continue. Softlavender (talk) 02:02, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support Previously said I would support this. —JJB^ers 02:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support block of at least 6 months or indef. There is no evidence HiLo has changed his ways or has any intention of doing so. This is not a punitive block by any means, it is instead aimed at stopping him abuse and accuse other editors with no support for his accusations.Merphee (talk) 03:05, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support a wiki-wide block of 3-6 months for @HiLo48:, though I now oppose blocking in any capacity Timeshift9 (see below for my shift in reasoning). On HiLo, as multiple editors now reveal, the kind of behaviour that I outlined on the Wentworth by-election page (offensive commentary, refusal to engage in civil fashion on the talk page) is an ongoing issue. An escalation in sanction (up from a previous 1 month ban) seems appropriate. Global-Cityzen (talk) 06:01, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support block for 3 to 6 months per above. Carl Tristan Orense (talk) 05:23, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose this block seems punative in nature, also it concerns me that there seems to have been a poisoning of the well by some of the usual suspects who have disagreed with HiLo48 in a number of areas and are taking this ooportunity to get revenge. - Nick Thorne ^talk 08:06, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment after re-reading this entire thread and following the links and diffs therein, it has become obvious that many of the people commenting here are playing fast and loose with the truth or are putting the worst possible slant things. Frankly, in some of the complaints I see absolutley no misbehaviour at the linked to item.

    I am unimpressed with the way HiLo48's accusers have conducted their business, for example User:Global-Cityzen's first comment claims HiLo has form and points to a block from 4 years ago[79]. They then in their next comment say Yet again he has form in this regard linking to WP:Australian Wikipedians' notice board instead of a diff - I am not going to delve into that to try and find some alleged misconduct. They then launch into a list of alleged misdoings with nary a diff in site. This is not acceptable.

    Then with this wall of text, User:Impru20 says Persistent personal attacks and general incivility and provides a list of seven diffs supposedly to back that up, except wither the links do not work (two) or they either contain absolutley no incivility or at worst in one case barely bordeline incivility, after provocation. They then accuse HiLo48 of "righting great wrongs" and provide three diffs that point to nothing of the sort. They then accuse HiLo48 of persistent refusal to address/reply to issues raised by others purportedly backed up by five diffs that do not support the allegation. There is much more in that post, but I do not intend to make this another wall of text in reply. Suffice it to say that in my opinion the post superficially looks like it has lots of evidence to back its claims up, but those claims fail when they are examined closely. I struggle to AGF in that post.

    Then User:Softlavender chips in claiming of Impro20's post HiLo48, none of that is "hate speech"; it is neutral, accurate reporting supported by evidence.. Accurate? Neutral? Really? Supported by evidence? I don't think so. They then say None of it is "lies", as each statement is supported by several diffs which bear out the statement. Except that the diffs do not bear out the statement. They then say None of the statements are "personal attacks", either; they are all neutral observations. ROFL! You've got to be joking, neutral? This is the epitome of a personal attack. Later Softlavender says What Impru20 posted was not a "litany of alleged crimes", it was a well-evidenced report of your recent disruptive behavior. No litany of alleged crimes is exactly what it was, not at all "well-evidenced".

    And now User:Merphee joins in with this personal attack.for which he is pulled up by User:Snow Rise and then doubles down before finally saying In hindsight I shouldn't have even commented at all and in fact should have stayed well out of this debate. So this is where I will close my mouth and step away. but I note they did not strike any of their comments, so a rather fulsome apology.

    Now we are back to User:Softlavender. This time accusing HiLo48 of harassing Murphee. except the link provided in evidence shows HiLo48 commenting on a content deletion and following up with providing a source after a cursory search in response to the claim that the content was unsourced. HiLo48 may not have been overly polite, but neither were they uncivil as is alleged.

    Again User:Impru20 posts another diatribe here filled with links and diffs for things that are completely un-notable, or are irrelevent or non-sequitur. Once again it looks impressive until you follow the links and find it is non-sense.

    From here on it is just rinse and repeat. This entire thread has simply been a pile-on of people with apparent axes to grind and no substance. HiLo48 may not be the most diplomatic person at times, but his comments do not rise to the level of incivilty anywhere near the level that passes uncommented on in Wikipedia every day. Enough kangaroo court already, lets get back to building an encyclopaedia. - Nick Thorne ^talk 14:41, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

@Nick Thorne: Nick Thorne, kindly keep your accusations of bad faith to yourself! The fact that you are good friends with HiLo obviously makes the neutrality of your comments here exactly the same as any editor who has dealt with HiLo before and had a negative experience. Can't you see that. However I apologised and stepped out realising I shouldn't have got involved in the first place, but you sir just keep going on and on with your bad faith accusations against editors and administrators that support a block. How in any way are you neutral?? In my humble opinion, you should have kept out of this like I admitted I should have kept out of it. I would strongly suggest those administrators and editors that are neither buddies with HiLo nor those who have had conflict with HiLo should make the final call on whether HiLo receives a block.Merphee (talk) 07:08, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

On what concerns me:

1) be careful when accusing others of writing "walls of text", as that is exactly what you have done here.

2) You say that I provide a list of seven diffs supposedly to back that up, except wither the links do not work (two). I've checked them all and they all work. Then you say that "they either contain absolutley no incivility or at worst in one case barely bordeline incivility, after provocation". So, let's see: accusing others of "ignoring reality", lying, "using Trumpisms" without any further statement or argument is not uncivil to you? Or at the very least open and useless provokations? Further, when HiLo says "That post is the biggest load of insulting, arrogant, offensive, non-empathic crap I have seen for quite some time" what is that for you? We could provide dozens of diffs from HiLo provoking, berating or patronizing others (and yes, condescension is a form of uncivility, in case you didn't know), so I do not quite understand the justification given there.

3) You then say They then accuse HiLo48 of "righting great wrongs" and provide three diffs that point to nothing of the sort. The diffs provided point exactly that: the first one was a reply to a specific question asked to him, where he just replied that the point of his disruption was "the creation and maintenance of a quality, global encyclopaedia", when he has acted the opposite. In the second and third ones, he accuses others of not accepting "the truth"; a "truth" which only he seemingly knows (a prime example of RGW).

4) They then accuse HiLo48 of persistent refusal to address/reply to issues raised by others purportedly backed up by five diffs that do not support the allegation. May you please elaborate how the diffs do not support the allegation? In one of these, he resorts to "the problems have been described" when he was asked a particular question on a situation which had not been addressed. In another one, he explicitly says that he can't currently be bothered to explain the issue. This is exactly a refusal to address/reply to issues raised by others. Nonetheless, this is just three that were given as examples; more could be found and given if warranted (even from this thread itself).

5) There is much more in that post, but I do not intend to make this another wall of text in reply. Suffice it to say that in my opinion the post superficially looks like it has lots of evidence to back its claims up, but those claims fail when they are examined closely. Firstly, you did not succeed in not making your comment another wall of text in reply; secondly, you have only countered the evidence with "this doesn't show this, this doesn't show that" but without actually explaining how the diffs did not show such behaviour from HiLo.

6) Accurate? Neutral? Really? Supported by evidence? I don't think so (...) Firstly, I see it bad enough that you are condemning Softlavender's behaviour in this discussion. When you are being brought to AN/I, such as HiLo has been, and pretend to claim innocence, you don't get into a rant accusing others of "hate speech" and, quite literally, arguing that It was rather silly of those who disagreed with me to think they could. You just don't. If others provide evidence against, you should bother to counter that, as the thinking that you shouldn't because you think you are above all of that and shouldn't argue anything shows there is a serious WP:CIR issue here.

This said, I would like to point out what I see as a serious AGF breach on your part. Firstly, because you are deliberately assuming bad faith from everybody involved in this discussion and supporting a block to HiLo, which is not good. Specially if your reasoning is of the sort of "hey no those diffs do not prove anything and everyone is wrong too, but hey it is my opinion". From your first comment in your oppose !vote, you have pointed to some sort of "revenge" wish against HiLo from some users having negative interactions with him in the past, without actually backing up that claim with evidence. Also, why do not you disclose that you have been defending HiLo's actions for years, even after blocks were imposed, as can be checked from a single read at HiLo's talk page? If this is going to be reviewed on the alleged history of those supporting a block, maybe the history of those opposing the block and who have been staunchly supportive of HiLo's behaviour for years should also be taken into consideration. Further, this separate discussion at HiLo's talk page hinting at some sort of conspiracy from Wiki admins is just unnacceptable. If there is anything to discuss, it should be discussed here. Impru20^talk 15:32, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

@Impru20: I do not apprecate being described with weasel words to the effect that I am a meat puppet of another editor. That is a direct personal attack and is unacceptable. I happen to agree on a couple of issues that attract a lot of attention from certain over enthusiastic supporters of the contrary position. That does not make me a member of the HiLo48 fan club. I took an independent look at your massive wall of text and found that it was less then entirely convincing. Without looking at what the links and diffs actually point to it certainly looks like a damning case. However, it turns out that theose links and diffs do not back up the statements you made. I make no judgement as to why this may be the case, only observe that it is so. You continue to attempt to bludgeon the conmnversation with lengthy posts making the same unsupported claims, as if they are established fact. I very strongly advise you to cease and desist or a boomerang may figure in your future. - Nick Thorne ^talk 05:07, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@Nick Thorne: Excuse me, but I thought you have directly addressed me. If you do not want for me to reply to you, do not address me; I can't see how that is bludgeoning. Yes, your history of support to HiLo48 is perfectly visible at their talk page, but I did not called you a "meat puppet" of him or suggested you were that (you will have your reasons for thinking so; I am not going to enter into that). But if you see that a s a direct personal attack, should I see your initial comment on me as a personal attack? Should I see your veiled references to other users and myself on HiLo's talk page as a personal attack too?

The diffs show precisely that, and I even explained how. Other users who did check the diffs were the ones who made the block proposal, so yes, you have your opinion, but it is not an "established fact". It seems that HiLo's does indeed have some protective aura around them than makes every ANI thread on him end the same way, no matter how supported or well-argued are the claims made. Fine. I just sincerely hope this case is not brought here again in the near future because HiLo has again attacked someone in another discussion. I already argued what the alternative to a block would be: that HiLo change their behaviour. Not something very demanding or unfair I think. Impru20^talk 07:06, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• There is no consensus for this block. The only people who have supported a block so far are those who have had a history of negative interactions with HiLo.--WaltCip (talk) 11:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Really, the only people? Global-Cityzen for example, when?Slatersteven (talk) 17:02, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I've never interacted with HiLo before this ANI. —JJB^ers 17:25, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

So I think we can discard this assumption of bad faith.Slatersteven (talk) 17:29, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

WaltCip, not only is there a consensus, there is an overwhelming consensus. Softlavender (talk) 18:27, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Walt, I also have no history of conflict with this editor. I'd like to ask that you be more careful with such blanket statements, and that you consider striking that comment. Given the proposed length of the block, I would not be entirely comfortable with it being implemented with just eight "support" !votes, but I believe you have seriously mis-characterized the concerns that have gone into what consensus does exist here; maybe some editors have a previous beef with Hilo (that's unfortunately a common occurrence in most ANI complaints), but it seems to me that most of the commenters in the present case have foregrounded their concerns in good-faith arguments, backed-up by a substantial number of diffs. I personally only supported action after watching the discussion for days and becoming concerned by Hilo's comments in this very thread, which I think are in and of themselves cause for concern. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:07, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

• @HiLo48: Which of the editors supporting your block have you interacted with previously?  Swarm  talk  20:46, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Too much. I've interacted with HiLo48 on and off for about 9 years. HiLo48 and I disagree on just about everything. They are refreshingly blunt rather than cleverly using the Wiki system to "get" people. North8000 (talk) 01:18, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per User:Nick Thorne's perceptive dissection. ——SerialNumber54129 14:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment Is this acceptable? Just asking. Impru20^talk 15:47, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

I've been through the situation that HiLo48's in, years ago & I easily recognize the pile-on effect. Including the 'monitoring' of his own talk-page. GoodDay (talk) 15:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

So, it is bad to monitor a talk page where you (for myself) are being mentioned at your back, yet it is cool for HiLo to 'dare' an admin to block the users supporting a block in order for he to even care to comment at his own ANI thread? And is it also cool for you and Nick Thorne to have previously given HiLo48's express support for his behaviour before coming in here? ([80] [81]) Seemingly, there was more here than what seemed at first sight, as I see both of you have an history of automatically supporting HiLo whenever his behaviour comes at scrutiny. Amusing enough, if there was any support !voter not involved on this issue, they all became involved the time they were all treated with the same disregard here. Impru20^talk 16:33, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

I will not push for an editors block or ban, if he/she hasn't vandalized articles. GoodDay (talk) 17:01, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

@GoodDay: This is one thing (that you in particular won't push for a block unless there is vandalism) which is very different to the issue at hand, or the allegations that it is others' undoing, and not HiLo's, what have brought them here. Indeed, blocks can (and are) enforced on situations which are not vandalism; to the point that, should this have been regarded as vandalism, it would have been reported at AIV, which is a different venue to ANI.

Frankly, it would be just as easy for everyone here for HiLo48 to sincerely commit to constructive discussion from now onwards. As was pointed out by myself even before you did it in this thread, or way before Nick Thorne's remarks, editing restrictions are preventive, not punitive. A block is being sought on HiLo48 because their behaviour is conflictive and they have shown no intention to change that (much to the contrary, they have been openly hostile when addressing concerns raised here and asked for an outright and indiscriminate block of participants in this discussion). For me, it would be enough to see evidence that there is a sincere commitment to change such a behaviour; this is becoming increasingly difficult as new evidence keeps mounting.

Whatever the outcome of this discussion be, should HiLo48's behaviour remain unchanged, and just as Softlavender pointed out above, even if a block was not enforced it will only delay the inevitable. This issue will keep being raised at ANI and, eventually, will make its way to ArbCom, where the "everyone hates me"-victim play will not work, and HiLo may very well end up banned from Wikipedia (note that here we are merely discussing a temporal block, 3-6 months-long). I have just been engaged with HiLo at the one instance which made Global-Cityzen open this ANI report, and it has been enough for me to recognize that there is a serious issue here that will get inevitably addressed in the end, one way or the other. Seeing how you and Nick Thorne are in good terms with HiLo, I would rather advise you to, rather than keep playing his game and speak of alleged conspiracies against him by the admins or other users, make him come to terms and show a profound change of behaviour when engaging in discussion with others. Because what your sympathy towards him makes you see as a mere "not being polite" or a rude behaviour allegedly justified due to "provocation", others see as provocation in itself, patronizing, uncivility and, ultimately, a disruptive and tendentious editing which turns any discussion into a toxic and unbearable environment. Impru20^talk 17:48, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

I've been before Arbcom, years ago. I don't want HiLo48 or any other editor to have that experience. GoodDay (talk) 18:37, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. User:Nick Thorne seems to have summed up quite concisely that we cannot block an editor based on a "consensus" of users when a number (not all) of those have been involved in issues with that editor. And I say that as someone who has had issues with HiLo in the past myself. Black Kite (talk) 16:02, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

I've never interacted with HiLo48 before this ANI. —JJB^ers 18:33, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Hence why I said "not all". Black Kite (talk) 00:13, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• oppose agree with Black kite's comment. This thread needs shutting down, I see it's sunday again. Govindaharihari (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose ban dont see how a ban of a long time predictive editor will help here.....a good block is ok to get the point across....but not a ban. Us old timers know of many old editors with communication skill problems and we simply deal with it on a case by case bases. Its sometimes very hard for old timers to take admins with less the 10,000 seriously....that said it would be great if HiLo could tone down the hate talk towards younger admins..as they are just trying there best.--Moxy (talk) 16:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

And how do you think we can achieve this aim? Just because you are an old ed should not be a right to ignore (or indeed insult) admins? It is clear HiLo does not take some admins seriously, thus he can (and does) act in a way that many other eds would not be allowed to. So do you have a solution?Slatersteven (talk) 17:28, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

As has been suggested before .....a longer block this time and oversight. How does banning help us? This is the type of thing we expect our administrators to handle without the loss of longtime editors. --Moxy (talk) 17:39, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Errr this is a long block, not a site ban we are voting on.Slatersteven (talk) 17:44, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

@Moxy: This proposal is for a block, not a ban. A long-term or indef block has been proposed, though several users have stated they would be fine with a 3-6 months block. A block and a ban are not the same thing. Impru20^talk 17:49, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Yup.....as I have stated .....OK with a block not a ban. How you like me to be more clear? Will highlight the ban part for thoses that still don't get it.--Moxy (talk) 18:03, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Blocks should be preventative, each time this comes up the same arguments used "but we cannot do anything", as if you are not choosing to tolerate this and "and the same old faces are here who have it in for him". Well each time it seems more faces show up, so maybe the problem is not the people who have issues with him, and that this will just get worse as he winds up more and more users. It might be best to actually start to try and address this in am meaningful way before the clamor for a full ban does become overwhelming (or more likely he attacks the wrong admin, because he thinks "we cannot do anything"). I am also concerned that many of the oppose votes do not appear to have read what has actually been written here (or who has written it). So can we actually have a list of the vote yes to a block who have previously taken issue with him at an ANI or have been in prior conflict with him, Rather then just ill founded and ill considered aspersions?Slatersteven (talk) 17:46, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, some of the oppose !votes do seem to be mere pile-ons, which is precisely one of the things which those opposers have criticised from the support !votes. As I have pointed out above, seeing how some of those opposers are in good terms with HiLo48, it would be actually much more helpful for the situation at hand to have them advice HiLo48 to change his behaviour here rather than keeping commending him for his doings. Precisely, that some of these users have been so sympathetic to HiLo's behaviour for years (as can be seen in HiLo's talk page), even in spite of blocks or warnings, could be one of the reasons that HiLo behaves the way he does, as he may feel that, for somebody, he will always be doing 'the correct thing'. Impru20^talk 18:00, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment I very much don't appreciate being told that I'm stating lies even though I've not said anything untrue. Somewhat ironic actually. (link) —JJB^ers 18:26, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - I expected to be blocking HiLo based on the way the discussion was going, but I've finally gotten the time to read the whole thread and examine all the diffs, and I'm actually in agreement with Nick Thorne and Black Kite. The block supporters are overplaying their hand here. Reading through this thread, it just seems dirty. The original report was about two editors who were mutually battlegrounding and edit warring over a petty content dispute. Much of the focus of the original complaint appears to have been on Timeshift for their unhinged edit warring. Interestingly, Timeshift was not accountable for their actions here, yet is being given a free pass. That's not how things work, and that's not how things would have gone had this been reported to WP:AN3. Examining the talk page, the users were all bludgeoning each other with endless commentary and no one is attempting to seek dispute resolution. Of course things are going to get heated in that situation, and the lack of dispute resolution is clearly the reason things went off the rails, and HiLo can not be solely blamed for that. So, in a questionable move to begin with, it comes to AN/I, the page gets protected, and the reporter is told to start an RfC (i.e. seek dispute resolution), and the thread seems to be headed towards an uncontentious close with no action. Then, Impru, who is one of the users bludgeoning discussions on the talk page and who has been uncivil to and has attacked HiLo himself, posts a massive wall of text and diffs purported to make a behavioral case for a severe block instead. But, examining those diffs, there's nothing particularly serious there. Yes, the diffs show HiLo being blunt, heated and/or uncivil at times, but I didn't see a single diff that stands out as being particularly severe, beyond the level of a heated content dispute, and certainly nothing there justifies his calling HiLo a CIR/NOTHERE case. Honestly, I don't think HiLo's emotive mannerisms are any worse than Impru's detached, condescending, passive-aggressive mannerisms, excessively wikilinking to policy pages and reducing opposing views to logical fallacies. Sorry, but the diffs don't back it.  Swarm  talk  21:40, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

@Swarm: It is perfectly valid that you think that of me. However, it would be nice that you do actually explain where do you particularly see I act like that, so that I can ascertain what your views on uncivility and condescension are and see how those compare to HiLo's behaviour (from your description of events, this looks as if I acted much worse than HiLo, when I was not even the user filing this ANI report nor bullied other users into desperation as HiLo did).

Yes, as you would know, editing restrictions are preventive. Sure, Timeshift would have gotten blocked should their behaviour have been brought to AN3 at the time they happened, but they weren't, and by the time any action was proposed Timeshift had already stopped commenting and edit warring for days. To the contrary, HiLo has not shown any will to improve their behaviour (an idea which is reinforced by the little 'talk page conspiracy' bit).

From what I've been able to research (which I had to do, since unlike what some try to point out, I did not knew about HiLo's existence until two weeks ago), it is clear that HiLo will basically ignore admins and WP policies and guidelines which they see as flawed, that they think addressing others' issues is something they should not even be bothered to do and that they can basically bad-faith on everyone with a free license (as they themselves have explictly acknowledged).

Showing an inability "to communicate with others and present rationales when questioned by others" is a CIR issue, unless the guideline needs re-writing (which I dunno). Just pointing out that HiLo has done this even after you required them for it, and not in a particularly nice way ([82] [83]). You've overlooked it. Not my business though: I've only ever encountered HiLo once and will be unlikely to encounter him again for a long time given our topic editing areas, so I'll be fine whatever the result. Basically, because I won't be the admin who has to deal with this mess again in the near future because no action was taken at the dozen times this issue was raised previously at ANI. Impru20^talk 22:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

@Impru20: why are you so bothered then that you spent six hours on a sunday afternoon focussed on this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Impru20 Govindaharihari (talk) 00:09, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Anyone who takes the time to read your comments in the original discussion and in this one can see it for themselves. You may not be self-aware of it, or willing concede anything on your end, but that's my honest impressions of your conduct overall, and I think the excessive debating/invalidating of differing opinions itself mirrors the conduct I observed in the original discussion. I get the distinct impression that you're a fairly intelligent person who likes to debate and is self-aware of the fact that you're good at it to the point where you will outmaneuver your opponent ad infinitum until they concede. Don't get me wrong, I respect that, but in the context of a content dispute, it's no more productive for resolving disputes than being uncivil and refusing to listen to reason, and where you have a group of editors who have been needlessly debating each other endlessly for the better part of a month, while taking no actually productive steps to move past that state, you can't really just scapegoat one person in the situation. The criticisms of HiLo are fair, but the proposed sanctions are not. Like I said, HiLo can be blunt, emotional, even uncivil, but that in itself, to the degree that was demonstrated by the substantial case you made, does not add up to 'longterm block'. I haven't overlooked HiLo's unreasonable response to me, but it's clear HiLo has serious grievances with the project that aren't related to me, and, frankly, aren't my concern.  Swarm  talk  04:51, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@Govindaharihari: Bothered? Maybe because I was directly addressed by other users at this discussion? Maybe because other users and I were being called liars and other things at a private talk page without even the courtesy of pinging us so that we could defend ourselves? Yeah, I did not find it amusing for it to happen at a Sunday either. Impru20^talk 07:09, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@Swarm: I do concede those are your honest impressions of it (never said otherwise), but I do not concede that is reality, specially when your only evidence that my own behaviour was worser than that of HiLo's is your own expression (and excuse, but whenever I say "It was rather silly of those who disagreed with me to think they could" at an ANI thread on me and demand an admin to block other users at leisure, just to name two issues which are strongly concerning on their own, then we could start off thinking my conduct is minimally similar to that of HiLo's). You are not even the first person to acknowledge that the discussion leading up to this ANI thread was heated, but that does not justify HiLo's behaviour a single bit (if anything, their constant uncivility and disruptive behaviour is what made that discussion toxic in the first place). HiLo's grievances with the project is what makes them act like if guidelines and rules do not go with them, and I'm rather astonished to see some users receiving such a special treatment as if they had a free license to reign all over Wikipedia just because they play the "bullied victim" game, when in fact they have no objection themselves to bully others into submission. Acknowledging that and at the same time suggesting no action should be taken will only mean this issue will end up being brought here again whenever he acts like this again on other users. Not by me, though. Impru20^talk 06:53, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Well I suspect this is going to be closed as no consensus, so see you in 6 months.Slatersteven (talk) 10:07, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support Seeing the above issue and talk page comments to the tune of "block everyone who I feel has lied about me", I'm seeing an editor who has no business being here on Wikipedia. They have the attitude of someone trying to fight the system rather than work with it, and frankly we have enough combative personalities here to begin with. --Tarage (talk) 19:16, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - Despite the retraction of my original comment, I still feel that there's no consensus for a ban or even an extensive block, given the assessment above by Nick Thorne, though of course, I firmly disagree with Govindaharihari's attempt to shut down the discussion shortly after leaving a comment of their own (come on, that's just something you don't do on ANI or anywhere else for that matter). With that being said, something needs to be done. It's clear that there are grounds for complaint even with incivility on both sides of the aisle. HiLo has had a very long-term history of incivility, even on WP:ITN where I've had the displeasure of interacting with him a few times with regards to discussions of systemic bias. Even if we put an extra-large trout on his user talk page telling him "seriously, don't do that again", that would suffice better than just walking off saying "oh well, no consensus".--WaltCip (talk) 13:50, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

At this juncture, I'm afraid I must agree. With nine !votes in support and six now in opposition, I cannot view this is an acceptable representation of community consensus to block--maybe if there were just a slightly larger proportion of supports or the same proportion but with slightly more respondents, but given the length of the block proposed by most, the level of support is insufficient in my view, and I don't think it would be healthy to leave this open much longer. Regarding the views Hilo has expressed in this discussion, I continue to be bothered by the attitude towards community norms on the appropriate treatment of fellow contributors--views which Hilo's user page demonstrates are very much actively a part of their mindset whenever they interact with others on this project; these views are clearly a real problem and of a variety that Hilo seems unlikely to re-assess/address on their own initiative. I'm further worried that they seem to have now adopted a strategy of just ignoring community concerns and hoping they will blow over, which has clearly worked for them in this instance.

All of that said, at this juncture I think Walt has the correct assessment here. There is no consensus to block, so our best hope is to have an admin who has previously not commented here close--someone who will hopefully astutely summarize the concerns raised, noting that a majority of editors were ready to contemplate a long-term block. This will serve two potentially useful aims: it may convince Hilo that a change is in order, by reinforcing that they came pretty close to a much heftier block this time, and it will be a part of the record if they prove incapable of self-correction and end up involved in similar situations shortly down the line. I'm not sure a trout is appropriate, because I'm concerned the quasi-farcical nature of that response will play into Hilo's perspective that concerns about civility are not to be taken that seriously and are over-expressed in our policies and community expectations. A sober close with a decent accounting of concerns and a direct statement for Hilo that community patience with the hostility is beginning to wear thin would be my preference. Snow ^{let's rap} 19:39, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Actually, it's eight in opposition. GoodDay (talk) 23:32, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Who?Slatersteven (talk) 16:37, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Do the math, I've counted eight opposes in this sub-section. GoodDay (talk) 21:25, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I count 7 opposing a block, maybe it is someone who did not mark their oppose as an oppose but as a comment?Slatersteven (talk) 10:22, 23 November 2018 (UTC).

Well GoodDay, Nick Thorne, North8000, SerialNumber54129, Black Kite, Govindaharihari, Swarm make 7. More likely GoodDay counted Moxy who did oppose but not a block. Nil Einne (talk) 12:22, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I was counting Moxy's. GoodDay (talk) 13:46, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough, but additional !opposes only reinforce the main thrust of my comment: there is no consensus here sufficient to enact the proposed sanction, and leaving the discussion open longer is unlikely to bring that consensus any time soon, while it will attract more acrimony. Personally I think community action would be well warranted and that some of those users may come to regret extending more WP:ROPE at this point, but the situation is what it is. Snow ^{let's rap} 17:12, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment As I mentioned in my "oppose" entry, I've interacted with HiLo48 on and off for 9 years and we disagree on just about everything. I find them to be refreshingly blunt, they tend to be a little rough in conversations and then they just move on with no ill will. I.E it's just their way of conversing. I took a quick look at the areas in question above expecting to find something that I could volunteer to speak to them about but there's not a lot there......basically a content dispute between two editors at one article, and some brief vague negative stuff about HiLo48. I see nothing there to warrant such a serious move. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:17, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment: My main concern is that HiLo48's observable longterm habit of bullying and harassing editors, blatantly and repeatedly misstating the truth, and refusing to stop or to adequately respond to these issues, is driving many editors, especially newer or less experienced editors or editors whose English skills are not as rapier sharp, off of the project or at the very least off of certain articles or subjects. Although he has accrued substantial goodwill from constructive editing, at the same time we can't ignore the damage he's done and doing. We need a preventative, which is what a lengthy block would accomplish. I believe that ArbCom is going to be the next step if the issue isn't resolved or if he does not desist from these behaviors. Softlavender (talk) 11:30, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree, next time rather then ANI he is taken to arbcom.Slatersteven (talk) 11:36, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Topic ban for Timeshift9

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Its takes two to tango and this was just pure battleground for no real reason.Slatersteven (talk) 10:17, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose TBAN – just as I see a TBAN alone would be ineffective on HiLo48, I think it may be too excessive for Timeshift9. As per WP:TBAN, The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid editors from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive. While edit warring is disruptive, I don't think there is enough evidence of a long-term behaviour on the part of Timeshift that justifies a TBAN (given the preventive, not punitive, nature of editing restrictions), and I'd rather see it as an isolated incident. Further, the 3RR violations (which would also involve Global-Cityzen) would have probably justified a short block at the time, but given that there have been no new discussion/behaviour issues or warring, I would say to just let it go for now. Impru20^talk 18:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - we should be careful, that we're not seen as being punitive in nature. GoodDay (talk) 21:39, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose It doesn't look like Timeshift9 was the bully here. Get at the root cause of the issue which was obviously Hilo after looking at their interaction.Merphee (talk) 03:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. —JJB^ers 04:31, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
• Statement. Upon reflection I don’t believe a full-scale ban would be necessary for @Timeshift9:. Specifically I think TS9 engaged in WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:POINTY behaviour on the Wentworth by-election page within about a 4 hour period around the time I created this section, though I can’t deny I reacted by adding the original material he was so opposed to several times, possibly in violation of 3RR. Days later, and he’s actually made an edit to the infobox which sought to improve it (from “swing” to “change” of something like that). So a full-scale ban would be wrong, and (and against what I feel is my better judgement), I lean to opposing a topic ban for him. Unlike HiLo, this would appear to be an isolated case and I hope the both of us can learn from it. I’m firmly of the view HiLo should be blocked wiki-wide for 3-6 months, as I’ll explain above. One piece of advice I have for Timseshift, take a read of how to pull back from the brink from tenditious editing/editing to “prove” a point. Global-Cityzen (talk) 05:55, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose. Veteran contributor with a huge contribution to this area over many years. Many people behaved badly in this clusterfuck of a dispute and his conduct in no way rises to anything approaching topic ban worthy. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:11, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Strong arguments have been made this was a one off, and being provoked is often defense.Slatersteven (talk) 10:12, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I think this can be closed as a snow close at this point. —JJB^ers 19:00, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Incivility, disruptive "dumping" in threads, and activism against notability guidelines by James500

All of us are critical of some ideas from other editors from time to time, and may call something "nonsense" when sense actually cannot be made of it. But there's a major difference between that and habitual use of hostile, hyperbolic, denigrating language in a fallacious argument to emotion and argument to ridicule pattern whenever one is meeting with disagreement. Especially when it's combined with either refusal to address others' points, or a hand-wave and Gish gallop technique of using a firehose of off-topic ranting and rambling that doesn't actually address the substance of the discussion others are trying to have. That's simply disruptive.

Without digging into very far at all into just the notability-related edits of James500 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – and I am not the first to raise these concerns about his edits [84]:

• In response to a simple copy-editing proposal (mostly about word-order in a guideline sentence): "Utter nonsense. ... "manifestly factually untrue manifest total nonsense from start to finish" [sic] ... "Literally nothing he says is accurate." ... "This is completely misleading" ... "I am confronted by epic exaggeration ... and spectacularly misleading statements", and much more [85]. This is all just from the first 15% or so of James500's enormous 8.8K, 1400+ word rant, all dumped as a single WP:BLUDGEON paragraph, and most of it having nothing to do with the proposed revision or the problem to resolve. (Instead it goes on at length about what kinds of publications do what kinds of reviews, how GNG should (in that editor's consensus-diverged view) be interpreted and applied, his unhappiness with "deletionist mega-trolls", and on and on, concluding with his opposition to the guideline even existing – there "no possible justification" for it, he says. Also, the frequency which other respondents agreed with the proposal for revision clearly disproves James500's claim that it is "nonsense".)
• Responded with nothing but "That is total nonsense" [86] when asked by multiple parties and about multiple posts ([87], [88]) to stay on-topic and either use paragraph breaks or write shorter.
• Did not understand the rationale someone presented, and simply declared it "nonsense from start to finish" [89] (followed by argumentation that missed or intentionally skirted the actual point again; other participants showed no such comprehension problems or faux-problems; it appears to be an act to excuse ranting.)
• Declared arguments for deleting an Australian lawyer bio to be categorically "utter nonsense from start to finish" [90] (an evidently habitual phrase), but did not address any of them. Simply asserted that being a Queen's Counsel automatically translates into "notable", an idea that does not enjoy consensus (there are over 1,000 QCs in Australia alone, probably 10,000+ throughout the Commonwealth; it's an indicator of professional competence, not notability).
• "That is nonsense" again plus more off-topic hand-waving [91], when called out for misunderstanding WP:Systemic bias so badly that he said "I have yet to see any statistical evidence of actual over representation of any kind of topic on this project." [92]
• Another pointless "nonsense" post again [93] that substantively addressed nothing at all but appears to be pure battlegrounding against Hijiri88, with whom James500 is in frequent disagreement in discussions relating to notability.
• Similar ad hominem commentary, declaring other editors' input "completely irrelevant", "no value", "playing pointless semantic games", "nonsense", etc. [94]. (The other editors were simply making the point that small-town newspaper coverage of a local resident doesn't establish notability, a view well-accepted by consensus; so, James500's straw man mischaracterizations of them are demonstrably false.)
• Yet again "that is nonsense", with no substantive commentary of any kind [95].
• "I disagree with everything that you say." [96] (Followed by activism that Wikipedia shouldn't have it's definitions of and rules about primary and secondary sources and should instead use those from another field.)
• Labeled a section (WP:AUD) of the WP:Notability guideline "bizarre nonsense" [97]. (Not a civility problem, but helps establish that "If I disagree, it's okay to call it 'nonsense'" is a habitual pattern, as is unconstructive activism against consensus-accepted policy material and its application, covered in more detail below.)
• Claimed to have implemented [98] a proposed change under discussion ([99], [100]) to resolve the thread's main concern, but actually made a very different change discussed by no one [101], and which is unacceptably redundant wording which to many readers would read like some kind of typo. (It may have been reverted by now; I haven't checked yes, it has been.)

This sort of behavior seems most frequent in James500's "pet peeve" area: he is a consistent agitator against the very existence of Wikipedia notability guidelines (see [102], [103], and [104] as just a few recent examples). This is essentially a WP:1AM and WP:GREATWRONGS exercise in activism against long-standing consensus (an activity that is frequently considered WP:NOTHERE and WP:NOT#ADVOCACY, and grounds for action in and of itself). Given this, it makes the editor's hostile and unresponsive commentary pattern doubly inexcusable.

Disclaimer of sorts: I have no prior interaction of note with James500 that I can recall. I myself was once among the staunchest opposers of WP adopting notability guidelines (at least as they were being drafted early on). I'm sympathetic to James500's viewpoint more than he'd realize. But the guidelines are part of the Wikipedia playbook, and the community has crafted and re-crafted them carefully for over a decade. I'm also not known for brevity; having a lot to say isn't a problem – dumping it in a massive unbroken text wall is, and so is posting piles of stuff that doesn't actually pertain to the discussion just to keep re-injecting one's "Wikipedia should work differently" activism viewpoint.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:30, 11 November 2018 (UTC); updated: 14:08, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

• Previous ANI: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive300#Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Salami tactics
• On civility, this editor may need to be prohibited from this kind of flippantly insulting and dismissive commentary (making any real counter-argument certainly doesn't require it!). Just a civility warning might be sufficient at this time.

  Regardless, a topic-ban from discussions of notability other than its application to specific cases at AfD (where James500 is a frequent and on-topic albeit extremely inclusionist participant) should separately be considered, given that railing against a guideline's existence is not a constructive activity and is a drain on other editors' time and goodwill – and isn't likely to stop on its own. A compounding factor is the editor's attempt, in this same context, to hijack the phrase "systemic bias" to just mean "we don't write enough about ancient and medieval dead people", even to the point of clearly stated denialism that white male Westerners are overrepresented (see [105] and his comment above it, though there are several other examples even in just the few pages of contribs I looked at, e.g. [106]). Guaranteed to raise the ire of anyone who cares about WP:BIAS issues, this is difficult to distinguish from intentional trolling, and at very least seems a WP:CIR matter.
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:30, 11 November 2018 (UTC); revised: 14:46, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

• I'm frankly surprised this editor wasn't site-banned years ago. His tone is unnecessarily aggressive at best, and he's got an extreme battleground mentality when it comes to "the deletionists". This entirely aside from his specifically targeting me for some particularly slimy "enemy-of-my-enemy" harassment. He pretended to rage-quit Wikipedia when I called him out a very small portion of this (specifically his trying to trick the AFD analysis tools by never bolding his !votes, which is why this happens despite his having auto-!voted "keep" in hundreds of AFDs before that point). This is not a healthy presence for the project. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:50, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Note that the above diffs are mostly me summarizing the disruption in response to James, to which he either feigned contrition before quickly reverting back to normal or just ignored me entirely. I find these more useful as evidence than simply providing the original diffs of James's actions, as my comments explain them in context. For the slimy harassment, the primary diffs of James's activities are located in my comment, but with the quotes about "deletionists" I didn't think it necessary as they all appeared on the live version of the same page. SMcC has suggested to me on my talk page that I give all the individual diffs of the quotations, which I might do tomorrow, but Ctrl+Fing the quotes will show them accurate, and even worse in their original context. I doubt, however, that I could be comprehensive in giving all the diffs of this editor's disruptive incivility. Anyway, in the meantime anyone with access to deleted pages might want to check out the page that was userfied as a result of Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Salami tactics and then deleted at James's request: it's more strong evidence of the editor's battleground ideology. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:45, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

• Will write/link more later tonight, but James is long overdue for a tban on deletion in general, and especially on notability in particular. Easily one of the most consistently disruptive wikilawyers I've come across in my time on Wikipedia. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 19:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose The issue is a discussion at WP:NBOOK where SMcCandlish is trying to outlaw book reviews as sources and James500 is arguing against this proposal. We're supposed to discuss these matters to establish consensus but it's a common vice for editors to go on too long and all concerned should read WP:TLDR. Preventing editors from speaking at all is not appropriate because this would distort the consensus process. Trying to silence such an opponent at ANI is inappropriate as SMcCandlish has just explained at WP:GRAPES. Andrew D. (talk) 05:38, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

  Then there's the kind of case where someone doesn't get what they want out of a nomination process, RfC, BRD discussion, or other thread, and feels that someone in particular blockaded or thwarted them. So they dig around in that editor's history for enough dirt – none of which involved them – to try paint a picture of their "enemy" as a disruptive editor (or bad admin, or whatever) at WP:ANI, WP:AE, WP:RFARB or some other drama-board. Even cursory review of editorial interaction is going to show the noticeboard's respondents that the real motivation is petty vengeance. The editor engaging in this will be lucky if it ends with just a snowball close against their pillory-my-opponent proposition; a boomerang is quite likely.

• Wow. So, if I may paraphrase this one oppose we all knew would be inevitable regardless of the reality of the situation: "nope nope, fake news. he's mad because he wants to outlaw book reviews?" — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 06:10, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I wonder if Andrew would have posted such a clearly WP:BATTLEGROUND comment (which essentially amounts to "This user is an inclusionist, and therefore must be defended regardless of his other policy violations.") if the ANI thread about his misbehaviour hadn't been closed two hours earlier. @28bytes: This is why some threads should probably just be allowed get archived without a "formal" close. For one thing, saying there's no consensus for sanctions against him, without specifying that the lack of consensus relates specifically to his deprodding, and not to his battleground behaviour, disruptive comments at AFD, etc., makes it harder to bring up the other problems later. Virtually everyone who opposed sanctions specifically referred to PROD, and hardly any of them addressed the other stuff. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• @Andrew Davidson: That's a patently false statement and you should strike or correct it. I have suggested nothing even faintly, remotely resembling "trying to outlaw book reviews as sources". That idea isn't even on the same planet. PS: This has nothing to do with "vengeance" (for what? I have lost nothing and not been harmed in any way, nor was my proposal "blockaded" by this person, but is proceeding exactly as intended and as discussed [107]). It's entirely and only about a clearly evident pattern of disruptive and uncivil behavior (which runs far deeper than I suspected it did, judging from the evidence presented by Rhododendrites and Hijiri88; I only looked back about a month in talk-post history, in notability-related pages which is where I observed the problem occurring; that's not dirt-digging, it's basic ANI due diligence).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:24, 12 November 2018 (UTC); updated: 14:08, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Evidence of a long-term pattern

James's perspective on deletion and notability is an extreme one. That's not the problem, though. The problem is that for years, he is, in my experience, the Wikipedian most likely to expend incredible amounts of text to wikilawyer the absolute correctness of his perspective and the extent to which there is clear consensus supporting him and against others; and furthermore, that other people -- especially "deletionists" -- are the ones wikilawyering, acting in bad faith, and harassing him. His perspective is objectively correct until presented with evidence, at which point anything can become subjective (GNG, the interpretation of data (data which is probably wrong anyway because James disagrees), etc.), so he's still right. It's an exhausting time sink, and the battleground approach he takes throughout often turns the whole discussion toxic.

James routinely acts in contempt of standard community norms when they do not suit him. A handful of such examples would be ok -- we aren't robots, after all, and nobody asks for absolute conformity -- but persistent, seemingly antagonistic refusal to many users' requests are disruptive/tendentious and counter-collaborative. For example, when it's clear he's going to be in the minority, he refuses to bold his !votes (seemingly so that AfD stats cannot track it). He wrote an essay encouraging others to do that same -- a wild wikilawyering exercise that was nixed from projectspace at its MfD. Another example is how James removes all messages from his talk page and does not archive them. This is standard for someone evading scrutiny, and extremely uncommon for anyone else. Again, not on its own grounds for a sanction, but combined with all of the rest shows a pattern of disregard or even hostility towards established practice and other users' polite requests. Then there's refusing to indent threads like everyone else (which is included in Wikipedia:Tendentious editing, from which James argued to remove it back in 2011, so it's something he's known for many years now). James frequently responds to someone on the same indentation level, even after being asked to do so many, many times. For examples, [108] [109][110] [111] [112] [113]. The last two are both examples of extensive wikilawyering, and he defends the practice of not indenting at length and declares that closing admins must carefully consider his non-indented comments or should be desysopped (a declaration that also came up when talking about not bolding !votes, which, as it happens, is also addressed in the deletion review link). Yet another example: it's well established at AfD (a venue James knows well, which makes the following seem disingenuous) that just linking to a search engine is insufficient to demonstrate significant coverage/GNG. Yet he defends doing so and even says that asking for sources at AfD is equivalent to insisting an AfD be referenced like an article. This last example is less ubiquitous in his edits than the others, though. Another example, posting to a thread after it has been closed: here a thread created by a banned editor was closed with no support at all; James posted under the closed thread to argue the opposite -- that AfDs with only delete votes should be relisted and AfDs with no participation should be kept as no consensus. And then there's stuff like "'Plagiarism' is not a valid concept, it is a political weapon"...

The wikilawyering/battleground is everywhere upon even just a spot check for large text additions to Wikipedia and Wikipedia talk namespaces. Especially at any notability-related page (I would invite any skeptical editor to look through the archives of Wikipedia talk:Notability, Wikipedia talk:42, etc.). In terms of WP:BATTLEGROUND, James makes constant references "deletionist", "ultra-deletionist" [114] [115], etc. bogeymen and all of the terrible things they do. It's an always-available, imaginary evil to play against, to make his ideas sound sensible, rather than way outside of consensus themselves. He also frequently responds with insults or dismissals of people's comments (along these lines, though not always as clustered together).

You may look at some of these diffs and say "hey some of these are a few years old now." It's true. Most of my interactions with James were in 2014-2015. He did not edit from early 2016 until earlier this year, when we find ourselves back here for the very same sorts of things. Speaking of my interactions, it will also become clear in looking at some of the diffs above that I have been directly involved in many disputes with James. Take that as you will.

In short, because James has shown a long-term pattern of wikilawyering and a battleground mentality when it comes to discussions of deletion and notability, I would Support an indefinite topic ban on discussions related to deletion and notability, broadly construed. At this time I would abstain from taking a position on a community ban until I have time to take a closer look at his mainspace contributions, which may well be good. As I recall, James has some expertise in law (this is not me taking a wikilawyering swipe, to be clear), and that's a kind of expertise Wikipedia could use more of. My hope is that this is one of those situations when issues really are constrained to a particular topic area, and can be addressed with a lesser restriction. If mainspace contributions are good and the problems are indeed limited to deletion/notability discussions, I would certainly oppose a site ban (I'm only mentioning it because it was brought up above). Apologies for this wall of text. This is already the most, I think, that I have ever written on ANI, but I think that when it comes to a major sanction of an established editor, a long post is called for. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• Rhododendrites, I think it is inconsistent to accuse me of "expending incredible amounts of text" in a post more than 8.6 kB long, preceded by a post that was more than 10.7 kB long before it was expanded, and many others that are not particularly short. Especially when many of these criticisms relate to things that happened a long time ago and are stale. Am I expected to answer all of these many criticisms without writing something of a similar length? James500 (talk) 03:02, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

  Evidence age matters when reporting an incident; that report is by me, and uses fresh evidence. Rhododendrites' evidence from further back establishes that this is a long-term abuse pattern and not a one-off temporary problem. It's the furthest thing from inadmissible or irrelevant. If I'd known of the depth of this problem I would have proposed a broader t-ban at very least, or perhaps an indef or site-ban. There is also no valid comparison to be made between your habit of dumping massive, attacky, off-topic, anti-consensus rants into ongoing discussions, and someone providing a comprehensive multi-year summary of your problematic edits. If the only response you can muster to this ANI is to point fingers at someone else in a nanny-nanny-boo-boo manner, this is not a good sign. No, you are not expected to post a huge rebuttal. You are expected to make it clear that you understand why some of your editing patterns are a problem and why that problematic activity is going to stop.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:40, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

  I am not allowed to respond to a criticism even if it is factually inaccurate? Even if the problem alleged does not actually exist, did not actually happen, and is not supported by the evidence provided? Or even if the criticism misunderstands a relevant policy or guideline, or misunderstands something I said? Or even if I stopped doing the thing I am accused of long ago? Or even if other editors in this dispute have engaged in incivility etc towards me? Even if the only editors who agree with the criticism are involved in this dispute with me? If that is the case, I clearly have no choice but to say whatever you want me to say. It goes without saying that I will accept the community's decision in this matter and do whatever the community asks me to do. If I am not allowed to say anything in my defence, I think I should wait to hear what some uninvolved editors think before saying anything. If they tell me I am in the wrong, I will apologise 100% and modify my editing 100% in accordance with their wishes. If they would like me to explain myself, I will be happy to do so. They can even set me a word limit, and I will stick to it, if they feel that necessary. James500 (talk) 05:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

  No one said anything about what's "allowed". I'm trying to advise you how not to get blocked or banned. You can take that in the spirit in which its offered or ignore it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

  James, as an outside, uninvolved editor, I have to say: your response above is exactly the kind of problem people are talking about. You took a comment that said you should not go tit-for-tat with someone, and turned it into I am not allowed to respond to a criticism even if it is factually inaccurate?. This is the problem I am seeing. You twist others statements into pretzels, then complain about how salty said pretzels are. There's a repeated pattern of taking specific words from another person's statement, and using those out of context to claim the editor meant something other than what they clearly said. It's that confrontational "gotcha!" style of arguing that's exhausting other editors' patience with you. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:40, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

  I understand what you are saying. I am sorry for my response to SMcCandlish above. It was a mistake. But most of the time I cannot actually understand what SMcCandlish is saying. I, for example, have absolutely no idea what the expression "nanny nanny boo boo" means. If he had used the expression "tit-for-tat", as you did, I would have understood immediately. He and I have a communication problem. I cannot understand most of what he says. If he is going to continue to talk to me, I am going to need someone to translate what he says, because I cannot understand him, most of the time. James500 (talk) 15:58, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

  But you're doing exactly the same thing again. Rather than just absorb the point, you've latched onto some tiny phrase in what I said, "in a nanny-nanny-boo-boo manner", which can be completely removed from my post without substantively changing anything about its meaning, then you claim you "cannot actually understand". There is no communication problem. There's a WP:GAMING and WP:CIR problem, and you are not fooling anyone.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:41, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

• I would support a notability/AfD ban. According to AfD stats, he's voted delete exactly once, at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Female_Struggle (another delete vote shows, but it was actually a keep vote incorrectly identified by the software.) Obviously there's been some gaming of the statistics as noted above, and there may be valid reasons to consistently vote keep/have an inclusionist point of view, but his votes stand out for two reasons. First, the use of statistics from book searches to keep articles, and to be fair, he has been in the right on several of these I've checked. But for other articles, especially articles unrelated to books, he is completely unwilling to vote delete, often citing non-existent or irrelevant notability guidelines without explanation in an attempt to keep the article, and argues against any notability guideline that could be deletionist in the slightest. I'm not sure a site ban is warranted, though. SportingFlyer talk 06:38, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

As an aside, I've linked to several user pages and discussions with specific people above. I intentionally didn't link to usernames to avoid any sense of canvassing, but now I wonder if that conflicts with ANI norms of talking about people's discussions without notifying them. I will presume not do so myself unless told otherwise. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 06:16, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

It doesn't conflict with ANI norms. I have seen people pilloried for canvassing when they name-link a large number of allegedly aggrieved parties. The ANI rule is to notify people about whom one is making a report, i.e., the person[s] potentially subject to sanctions. If someone else ends up also potentially subject to them, they'd be notified if they're not already involved in the thread. We also typically name-link people if we've made a specific claim about their involvement, statements, understandings, etc., in case we might be mistaken.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:38, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Tell that to this guy Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:48, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: I never read your replies but your comment leads me to believe you still think it was okay for you to call out someone edit's on AN without notifying them. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Meanwhile of course, I'm assuming you're still claiming you needed to be notified for something which actually had nothing to do with you which even SMcCandlish's (IMO mistaken) comment doesn't agree with. I would note that in any case, SMcCandlish does recognise something you failed to last time around. Wikilinking someone's name or pinging them raises the same canvassing concerns that notifying them does. Therefore if you are concerned over canvassing it's a moot point whether you wikilink or notify. The question should be solely about whether it was acceptable to do so, so your objection to someone being notified when this came up remains pointless. Nil Einne (talk) 05:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I should clarify that I'm not complaining about you mentioning my comments here without notifying me. That's the sort of thing which was completely okay as there's almost no chance anyone is going to raise concerns with my behaviour, except by opening a new thread. My only concern is that you still feel it was okay for you to talk about the actions of the editor who originally closed the AN/I thread, even though you simultaneously felt they didn't have to be notified, while also feeling you had to be notified even though your actions had nothing to do with the discussion, and it was fairly unlikely people were going to discuss your behaviour. Nil Einne (talk) 07:42, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

FWIW, I didn't think the issue there was my discussing the editor in question without wanting them notified but the other editor's choosing to shoehorn a reference to them in to an otherwise unrelated filing. And, as with the discussion at WT:CIVIL to which that editor had canvassed others, context matters: if the editor in question hadn't just received a stern final warning for canvassing, I wouldn't have even made note of the shoehorning. Conversely, SMcCandlish opened an ANI thread about a discussion I had posted in more than he had; his not pinging Rhodo was actually more unusual than his pinging me, so he could hardly be accused of canvassing, even if an ANI thread had just closed with him being warned about canvassing. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:05, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: I don't think it's acceptable simply to namelink people if you are bringing their involvement up for discussion anymore. You need to notify them when you are naming them. If you are not naming them because their actions don't matter, or you believe they don't matter then you should not name them or notify them. If their involvement was incidental and it's unlikely anyone is going to bring up their involvement for discussion, it may be okay to simply wikilink them but this is IMO risky probably why it's rare. When that happens, it's not uncommon that someone's actions come up for discussion and they are never notified despite not yet being a participant because the assumption is made they were already notified. It's IMO rare for someone to notify people except at the beginning of a thread so if people aren't notified at the beginning, they often aren't going to be notified point blank. (Of course in practice, whether notified or wikilinked someone may simply read a discussion, say something or not, and decide they have nothing to add and then not read it anymore only for their actions to later come up for discussion. We can't handle all possibilities we simply do our best to be fair to editors.) Since canvassing concerns arise either way, not notifying someone when you are wikilinking them is of limited benefit. The only exception I'm aware of is when you're simply pinging someone because they've dealt with the editor or page of concern before so may be interested in the discussion (rather than being the focus of it), although even then it's not that there's a harm in notifying them, simply that it isn't needed. Nil Einne (talk) 05:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

@Nil Einne: That seems like a reasonable interpretation to me. I tend to ping someone in a thread like this if I'm putting forth my interpretation of what they've said, I'm directly quoting them (perhaps out of context?), or have characterized their actions (and it's important in the context), since they have a right to say whether I'm being accurate or off-base about them. But if someone I'm reporting got in an argument with 10 editors, and certainly not going to ping them all to come and restart their flamewar. Heh.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:36, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Comment in defense of above site-ban reference I'm not actually proposing an SBAN or even an indef, and at this stage would be satisfied with a TBAN. My reasoning for saying that I am surprised he hasn't been site-banned is that having a battleground mentality this virulent is normally a quick ticket to a community indef (functionally the same as a site ban), and while I too have not examined James's mainspace edits, I do note that since returning this year his article edits are roughly equal in number to his WP:-space edits, and many (most?) of the former are actually deletion-related (this applies to all of the ones on European literature, lists of star systems, and years/centuries in philosophy), and so would be covered by Rhodo's proposed TBAN anyway. The harassment of editors he sees as "deletionists" in non-deletion-related areas, such as requesting that an editor who was blocked partly for harassing me be unblocked, is also, IMO, the worst thing about his behaviour, and experience[116][117] has taught me that TBANning editors who do this won't actually stop it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:42, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• support TBAN from notabilty and deletion discussions. That was a lot to read, and yes, this person is disruptive on these topics and refuses to accept the community consensus (such as it is) or even to see the need for it. Hopefully they will contribute in other areas. Jytdog (talk) 09:48, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
  • @User:Jytdog: If I was to accept what you consider community consensus on notability and deletion, would you change your !vote? If I was, amongst other things, too agree to refrain from !voting to keep articles that should not be kept according to what you consider community consensus, would you change your !vote? James500 (talk) 10:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

    I have to observe that this is a spectacular example of a WP:NOTGETTINGIT and WP:CIR problem. This is not about negotiating with particular individuals to WP:WIN them to your side by slightly tweaking your tactics. The point is complete cessation of tendentious and uncivil verbal combat against site-wide consensus about what notability is, why we have it as an inclusion criterion, and how it is applied by the community.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:01, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

    I have struck my comment. I am sorry that I made it. I think that I now understand what you want me to refrain from doing. I agree to refrain from doing what you have just told me to refrain from doing. I will never open my mouth on the subject of notability again. James500 (talk) 15:34, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

• support Tban from notability and deletion discussions per Jytdog. Nil Einne (talk) 05:18, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

So, is anyone gonna look at this?

So far this thread has received commentary from the editor who filed it, the editor who is the subject of discussion, another editor (me) who was pinged, another editor involved in the dispute that led to this thread and with a long history with the subject of the thread, and a battleground editor who defended the subject of the thread with a bizarre non sequitur because said subject agrees with him on one hot button issue. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:54, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

• I've been reading this thread and there's quite a bit I could say. But anything I did say would only be throwing petrol on the fire without doing anything to help the situation. I do agree though that the stuff about "forbidding book reviews" is just obfuscation. Reyk _YO! 08:19, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
• Posted a comment in the previous section. Waiting to see how James responds before making any further statements. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:51, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
• Frankly, I agree entirely with this thread, but I'm so tired of this crap that I don't feel like contributing to it, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that front. That's all I'm gonna say. ansh666 19:02, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: James500 exclusively votes to keep articles, but his participation at AfD has been generally productive. The AfD tracker shows that "without considering No Consensus results, 81.9% of AfD's were matches and 18.1% of AfD's were not". This is pretty good. If there are problems with participation in notability discussions, then there are probably better ways of dealing with the situation, such as ignoring their comments. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:39, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

• @K.e.coffman: I can only presume you didn't read all of the above (though can't say I blame you). One of the very issues above is that James found a way to game those stats, refusing to bold his !votes except in certain circumstances and thus controlling which are tracked by the tool. If you actually look through his contribs to AfD rather than use the stats tool to do so, you will see that his record over the years is poor. Regardless, none of this is about accuracy at AfD, it's about a years-long pattern of disruption, battleground mentality, etc. around the topics of deletion and notability. I can pull a lot more diffs demonstrating this, but if all of the above didn't convince you, I don't know what will. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:49, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I see what you mean, and I do recall the "Salami" essay MfD. But it seems that the non-bolding of !votes has stopped, and I'm going by personal experience with seeing James500 at AfD. Most recently, I saw his edits at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/University Over the Abyss where I was going to vote keep, because it was a notable book. I'm sorry that your experience has been negative; I generally try not to get into repetitive discussions, hence my advice to ignore posts like that. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:08, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

That you have had positive experiences doesn't invalidate the heap of diffs to the contrary, unless you're saying all of the above is perfectly acceptable? Or you just don't believe it's evidence of a pattern. There are so many diffs, that I wonder what sort of evidence you would consider sufficient, if anything? Again, this is more about discussions about deletion and discussion of notability than accuracy at AfD. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:30, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: TBF, leaving out the "no consensus" results kinds misses the point, since it leaves out the cases where there would have been "consensus" of one or two editors ("soft delete") had it not been for him showing up and undermining that, and there is also the fact that he actively tried to trick the AFD stats tool by not bolding his !votes. This, for example, doesn't show up as an AFD in which he cast a !vote, despite the fact that any human being who can read can see he clearly did -- and in fact the AFD only took place because he disruptively requested a bunch of articles he hadn't read be undeleted "just 'cause". All of this was outlined, somewhat briefly/simplistically, in my own comment above, and Rhodo at least also alluded to the refusal to bold !votes in order to trick the AFD stats tool -- did you read them? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:19, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: This is all off-topic. This ANI report has nothing whatsoever to do with AfD stats, but with long-term and topically focused incivility, and a habitual campaigning against WP consensus being WP consensus (i.e., to have notability guidelines and to apply them, to delete non-notable articles). That is the entire subject. Even if he had a 100% AfD record, these issues would remain.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:22, 14 November 2018 (UTC) Revision: The ANI I opened had nothing to do with ANI stats, but enough editors have raised the issue that I concede its inclusion. However, I think most of the discussion about it has been a "sidetrack" of the central concerns, which are civility and soapboxing.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:26, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

• After reviewing this thread a few times over the past few days, I feel I can say definitively that I don't plan to comment on it in detail. The early grave of a no-consensus closure-by-default is sufficient, in my view. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:34, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

• I don't know what that means. Are you saying that in your view there is no action justified, or is this a non-comment to justify spending time digging through ANI yuckiness? I would ask you the same as coffman, then: what, exactly, would be convincing if not the evidence above? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:40, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

• It means I've seen him at AFD and haven't seen anything beyond "annoying" in his behavior, certainly nothing that would justify sanctions here. None of the specific diffs presented here are enough to convince me otherwise. The warning that the ANI regulars are aware of him and if he becomes more tendentious, he is more likely to be sanctioned in the future, is probably sufficient here. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:49, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

• Several times it's been bad enough to come to ANI. On one or two occasions it did. On the others, James did, as above, saying "I'll stop" when confronted with the possibility of ANI. There have been breaks, but no stopping. Eh. Perhaps the single most consistent and problematic long-term wikilawyer I've come across in my time on Wikipedia. Anyway, if I see a request for more evidence/diffs, I will drop more links. I'm less than convinced people will actually click them, though, so I'm going to allocate time elsewhere for the time being. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 04:26, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

@Power~enwiki: I hadn't seen him at AFD but in a discussion about notability in general (which he apparently considers to be part of a deletionist plot to destroy the encyclopedia), and called him out on his combative language. He responded by, several months later, requesting that an editor who was indeffed (partly) for harassing me be unblocked for apparently no other reason than that he didn't like me, and showing up on an ANI thread to defend another user whose harassment of me was under discussion (he had never edited the noticeboard before). You might call this behaviour "annoying" but I call it downright disturbing. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:19, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I've taken a second look. Excessive wordiness, complaints about indenting style, and a too-aggressive use of the word "nonsense" may not be encouraged, but they certainly don't justify any of the sanctions. Disagreeing with the community consensus on notability (in discussions about changing the notability policies) is something that can't be the justification for sanctions. Beyond that, we have a general tendentious tone; I don't think a warning "James500 is encouraged to be less tendentious" will please anybody. The (now-10-month-old) discussion on WT:NBOOK is one I've been a part of (as have SMcCandlish, Rhododendrites, Hijiri88, and James500); an RFC is probably necessary there and James500 should be encouraged not to comment on the drafting of the RFC (before it is open to general comment). Am I missing anything else? power~enwiki (π, ν) 16:49, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

@Power~enwiki: I pinged you above with specific diffs of James500 engaging in hounding of an editor he had decided was a "deletionist": did you not see them? There was nothing in my above reply to you about Excessive wordiness, complaints about indenting style, and a too-aggressive use of the word "nonsense" may not be encouraged; you are indeed missing something else, but given that you responded to a comment that was 100% about harassment and completely ignored that, it looks like you are doing so deliberately. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:56, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

After the incident where Hijiri88 felt that James500's vote at Philafrenzy's RFA was hounding, I don't feel this is a topic that needs to be investigated. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:15, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Umm ... it was hounding, as clearly demonstrated by the evidence above that shows irrefutably that he was hounding me (how on earth did he know who Huggums537 was, and why did he show up there right before showing up at ANI thread I had opened?): the problem was that RFA is a fiery enough place already, without using the RFA talk page to address who is hounding who. But bringing that up here just comes across as mudslinging for the sake of it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:47, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I will not engage in excessive wordiness. I will improve my indenting style. I will not use the word "nonsense" to describe other editors' talk page comments. I will not comment on the drafting of the RfC at WT:NBOOK. I will refrain from tenditious tone in the future. Is there anything else you would like me not to do? James500 (talk) 17:33, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

That honestly sounds entirely reasonable and notably more "getting-it" than previous responses, though you may be at once over-promising (that's a lot of detail to remember) and under-promising (in that some of it's gameable). Consider that the central issues here are incivility, and a "lobbyist"-style, anti-consensus approach to notability. It wouldn't be taken as reasonable to, say, start using "stupid", "twaddle", etc., in place of "nonsense", nor to just stop opposing notability guidelines on their talk pages but instead go to AfD and argue robotically to keep every article regardless of the applicability of notability guidelines. It's not about navigating a checklist of don't-do-this-little-thing and do-that-little-thing, it's about working within Wikipedia as a system and a community. That said, I'm inclined (finally?) to take this show contrition and awareness at face value.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:23, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

For the avoidance of doubt, I confirm I will not use the word "stupid" or "twaddle" or any similar word to describe other editors' talk page comments, and I confirm I will refrain from incivility and follow Wikipedia:Consensus. James500 (talk) 23:43, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

FWIW, I think the above explicit ignoring of my request below is quite telling: someone saying they will "refrain from incivility" in response to another editor telling them to avoid using a specific uncivil word, which they can later say is "up for debate" whether its use qualified as uncivil, would be bad enough by itself, but James500 still hasn't even acknowledged that targeted harassment took place. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:50, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Hijiri can you be more specific about what term we are talking about here? If it's "deletionist", I am afraid I am with James on that one small point. I think I've seen you advance this theory before that it is a pejorative, but if I am to be perfectly blunt, I think that's a bit histrionic and I don't think you are going to find it is a common view--in any event, I am quite certain that it's not going to be a big factor in anyone's analysis of whether James has been incivil in general with regard to the conduct discussed here, which presents far bigger questions. I say this as someone whose AfD stats, last I checked some years ago, skew strongly towards the "delete" side of things, and who will probably thus be accused of being a "deletionist" at some point. But the word in itself is just a term that some editors have adopted as descriptor for a supposed editorial philosophy. Let me be clear that I happen to think it's a small-minded, jingoistic term personally; it does seem to suggest, especially in the context in which it usually used, that the "deletionist" works from a knee-jerk, dogmatic approach and just wants to see things gone out of some obsessive, non-nuanced, mechanical approach to deletion discussions. Whereas the "deletionist" might say, in any given context in which that term is invoked, that they are simply following policy and that content guidelines make it clear not everything is appropriate for this project. So when someone uses that term to describe the approach of another editor, it degrades the strength of their argument, because they have chosen to adopt an argument that looks at least a little like a scarecrow argument and which attempts to build itself by addressing the "opposition's" characteristics rather than the issues themselves--both of which are weak forms of argumentation when it comes to policy/editorial decisions.

But WP:INCIVIL or a WP:PA? No, I'm sorry, I feel that's excessive. A dumb term? Yes. A clumsy bit of work in categorizing people instead of on-topic discourse of the virtues of approach A as opposed to approach B? Typically, yeah. But nothing actionable. People have to be able to have some flexibility to make their arguments on this project, and sometimes that does involve analysis of the bias of other editors. I think people reach to such arguments and statements more readily than I'd like on this project as a general matter, but I certainly can't get behind labeling that as incivil in itself, because sometimes its going to be vital. So I would call "deletionist" just generally lame, rather than offensive. But beyond my personal views, there's this to consider: we just had an RfC on WP:CIVILITY in which a substantial number of users felt the phrase "fuck off" was not per se offensive, even if said in the context of a dispute. What chances do you think you really have of convincing a majority of editors at ANI to take action against "deletionist" in that context? Of course, I could be mistaken; it could be you were referring to something entirely different, in which case, sorry for bending your ear with my deletionist dissertation!

More broadly, while I wouldn't defend James' conduct throughout (I'll speak to that in a separate post) I will say that at this point he is being more cooperative than one typically is at this point in a conduct discussion. He's already pledged not to do/say a number of specific things here that others have expressed concerns about. Usually a truly tendentious editor will not make such promises, because they believe (and correctly so in most circumstances) that if they do not abide by those promises, someone will quickly bring them back here seeking a sanction--because at that point, they will have tacitly conceded that the behaviour was not appropriate. Again, without pretending James' conduct has been perfect, James has agreed not to utter some words that I think a lot of other editors would not willingly part with. So is it truly that important to you that he concedes an apology to you specifically? Is that really where you feel the focus of this discussion needs to be? Because I must be honest with you, whether it is a fair assessment in this instance or not, it makes it look like any commentary on the conduct issues you may be offering here have a strong personal element. And therefore it doesn't seem so much targeted to meet community/project needs so much as you're own. If you have reason to believe James is being disingenuous, that's one thing. But if on the other hand you believe his promises are good-faith, is it really worth the risk of derailing that progress in order to try to get him admit being the one at fault in the personal dispute between you? Snow ^{let's rap} 05:03, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Without getting into many of the specifics here, @Snow Rise: the issue is not the term "deletionist." Plenty of editors use that term on a regular basis. The issue is the manner/context. Regardless of what a deletionist is, whether such a thing exists, or the extent to which it is a good or bad thing, James uses the term "deletionist" as an evil bogeyman -- a rhetorical tool to make wild assumptions of bad faith fitting into an overall battleground approach to notability-related discussions. It is an easily available straw man rationale to support any mischaracterization of notability/deletion-related matters that otherwise have broad consensus behind them. I've been called deletionist (as well as inclusionist) a number of times. The words don't matter (similar to the recent civility RfC, it's about how they're used/context, and long-term patterns). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 05:59, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, yes I do see some hints of the term being used in a jingoistic, dismissive fashion in some of the diffs provided thus far, but I am afraid I (and I suspect many other community members) would have to see more of those specifics before supporting such a strong sanction as a topic ban from all notability-related topics (that's a pretty solid chunk of all possible editorial activity on this project, even if we limit it to policy pages and don't include article content/AfD contexts); see my larger post below for a fuller description of my feelings on that. I certainly find this kind of usage (even insofar as has been presented here already) to be myopic, dogmatic, and indicative of subpar logic. But if we begin to topic ban editors from policy areas where they regularly hit that trifecta, we're going to have our work cut out for us here at ANI for, oh let's say the next thirty years. I'd need to see either something that more cleanly crosses the threshold into open hostility/incivility, or attempts on his part to filibuster/game the system/troll/what-have-you, before I could contemplate a topic ban here. Just expressing skepticism about the existence of a policy, on that policy's talk page, is not in and of itself unacceptable in my view. We need to be able to occasionally challenge even fundamental assumptions about how this project works from time to time. While I think James' approach would be nonsensical, I'd not be comfortable declaring his perspective anathema. That really would be pure dogma. Snow ^{let's rap} 06:34, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

@Snow Rise: Sorry, I saw your above comment, but didn't get it read to the end, and through some accident of combining diffs I thought it was written by SMcCandlish, and replied to him in an email (pinging him so he knows that email was in error). Hijiri can you be more specific about what term we are talking about here? If it's "deletionist", I am afraid I am with James on that one small point. Per the final consensus statement of a recent RFC that apparently involved comments from "hundreds" of editors, context matters when discussing civility. "Deletionist", in the context in which James used it in quotes like gigantic pile of wholly unmeritorious incredibly extreme mega-deletionist garbage,[118] [w]e ... need a way of dealing with deletionist trolls at AfD,[119] [s]uch deletionist trolls need to be silenced,[120] Massive oppose to all deletionist SNG,[121] all or most of the constructive useful editors have left because they have been bullied out by those deletionists who do nothing but smash up good content and make a nuisance out of themselves,[122] ignore any deletionist garbage SNGs,[123] some deletionists seem to think [X],[124] [i]n the minds of some deletionists[125] and some deletionists seem to want Wikipedia to be a children's encyclopedia based on poor sources[126] definitely was not civil (note that I linked to a mass diff of all of these quotes several days ago).

There's also meta:Deletionism, which says Few editors would explicitly describe themselves as "deletionists", rather the term is often applied as a slur, as self-deprecating humor, or simply used to expose contrast with people describing themselves as inclusionists. This view -- the official view, for at least the last seven years, of the page to which WP:DELETIONIST is soft-redirected -- is in-line with my user-essays User:Hijiri88/Don't call other editors "deletionists" and User:Hijiri88/Don't call yourself or others "inclusionists" (presumably what you mean by I think I've seen you advance this theory before that it is a pejorative -- the latter is actually a bit tongue-in-cheek, as I've called myself an inclusionist several times, with reference to my support for including more articles on marginalized/underrepresented topics in the encyclopedia). Despite those titles, I'm not trying to impose a hard-and-fast rule on the community, but rather saying that the word "deletionist" is, by definition, almost never used except as a pejorative or in a humorous/ironic sense, and so should be treated the same as other pejoratives when it is clearly used in this sense -- and you can't tell me that deletionist trolls need to be silenced is not using it in this sense!

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:38, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Well I note that you have somewhat selectively quoted James there: "deletionist trolls need to be silenced" sure does sound bad, but what he actually said is "Such deletionist trolls need to be silenced with objective precisely worded criteria..."; so, a substantially different tone when the entire clause is presented. That said, I will concede that it is hard to view "deletionist troll" as a term that represents a respectful, collaborative mindset, regardless of what sentence it appears in. But in my opinion, the operative word in that phrase which defies WP:AGF is not "deletionist", but rather "trolls". "Deletionist" standing alone just cannot be considered a pejorative insofar as it describes an editorial philosophy; that philosophy, insofar as I can tell, is largely a scarecrow label, which is why I think it erodes, rather than augments, any argument it is added to. But at the same time, it's not intrinsically hostile, and I think we need to be careful with what we label a "pejorative" vs. "a term that tends to suggest a myopic view and a proclivity towards factionalism". It's difficult enough to enforce basic civility standards on this project without opening up that can of worms.

All of that said, the diffs you present do help to develop the argument of a problematic pattern here; I just don't think that recognizing that pattern particularly centers on the word "deletionist" so much as the general refusal to AGF. The thing is, James seems immensely more willing to make concessions about these behaviours than your average person being scrutinized at ANI. Myself, I have never interacted with him or even seen his conduct out on the project beyond what has been presented here, that I can recall, so I have no sense of how sincere he is likely to be about moderating his approach. But it does seem to me that given those concessions, there's almost no chance of a TBAN resulting from this complaint--indeed, a sanction was unlikely to have resulted here regardless of any promises. However, since James has tacitly admitted his rhetoric could be altered to be more gracious to his philosophical opponents, I for one would take a dim view of things if he did not follow through on those promises, and I'm betting I am not the only one. So if this has to come back here again over essentially the same behaviours he has promised not to indulge in, a sanction will suddenly be looking much more likely. So I certainly hope he didn't make those promises hoping they would mollify scrutiny without a need to follow through--he's likely to be surprised by the outcome if so. Snow ^{let's rap} 02:53, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

That's a Catch-22, though. People have already complained that the evidence presented was too long and detailed, and someone even made a (bogus) WP:WITCHHUNT accusation. You're asking for an actual witchhunt, to diff-dig into James500 past edits to dredge up additional examples of the exact same things of which we already have sufficient evidence – both as to them being repeated instances of the same sanctionable behavior and as to them forming a very topical pattern of tendentious battlegrounding.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:24, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Except you do not seem to have a consensus which holds that the conduct presented so far actually is sanctionable, at least not with regard to the sanction you are seeking. I'm by no means urging you to go digging through anyone's edit history. I'm just telling you that James' conduct that you have presented thus far does not constitute the kind of disruption or incivlity I would need to see before endorsing the proposed TBAN. You may do with that information as you will, but certainly should not take it as encouragement to do anything you feel would be inappropriate, unfair, or generally discouraged by the community in discussions of this sort, or which you have been advised against in particular here. As to others telling you that your previous posts were excessive, I was not among them, so I can only speculate as to what they meant, but from my observation your post was very long, but also very repetitive, describing the same kinds of behaviours over and over. That may have been intentional to demonstrate the persistence/proclivity involved, but the problem is that I for one found those particular behavours (while by no means admirable) to fall short of outright disruption. Besides, James has promised to abet the behaviours which you spend the lion's share of your initial post describing, and you don't seem to be forwarding the contention that he is being disingenuous in his pledge, if I am reading you correctly? Snow ^{let's rap} 08:19, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

To be fair, the apparent lack of consensus is mostly due to friends of James and people who don't like SMcCandlish, Rhodo or me showing up to defend him, while largely ignoring the actual substance of the problem. Take, for example, Power's bogus assertion that James wasn't hounding me: has he presented any reasonable explanation for the evidence provided other than that James was hounding me? He was either hounding me or one of the other "deletionists" involved in those discussions (e.g.: the admin who filed the ANI report that got Huggums banned, whom I will not name as doing so would put me in a catch 22 of either pinging him or being accused of discussing someone on ANI without notifying them) -- the weird thing is that SMcC was, coincidentally, against banning Huggums, the same position James suddenly decided to espouse several weeks too late, "coincidentally" at the same time as I opened an ANI thread on the serial plagiarist / unreserved "inclusionist" Dream Focus and two other editors opened two AN threads on two other "inclusionists", in both of which I was involved. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:53, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I was going to say it smacked of circular reasoning. When we already have 17+ years of noticeboard decisions deeming consistent patterns of (especially topically obsessive) uncivil discourse and battleground/soapbox campaigning to be sanctionable, the fact that someone has two wikifriends who defend them no matter what is alleged (and in one case blatantly lie about the ANI filer), and the fact that some respondents to the discussion don't seem to closely follow either the evidence or the rationales, doesn't magically make the activities suddenly not sanctionable. They are sanctionable, unquestionably. It's just a matter of whether we should let it skate this time on the basis of promises by the subject of the ANI. I'm actually included do that in this case, since it's James500's first visit to ANI (that I know of) as the scrutiny subject.(When I was noobish I ended up here, too, for being sharp tongued. I learned to moderate and have contributed something like 140K non-automated edits to date. So I'm willing to extend the same benefit of the doubt. I don't like to call it rope, which is presumptive of eventual failure. I even tried to get that essay changed to stop making such presumptions but the snarky owners of the page will have none of it. They really like the tiny little niche they've made where CIVIL doesn't apply, even if you're applying it to people being sanctioned under CIVIL. It's really hypocritical.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: I think you're looking at it the wrong way: that applies to cases where the result will be eventual failure. In cases where it won't, it simply doesn't apply, so can be ignored. I've already stated why I think it applies here (James has made similar promises to me before, and broken about half of them almost immediately), but that's kinda beside the point. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:37, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Looking at it the wrong way is certainly possible. I hang upside-down when I take my vampire bat form.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:25, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

More than a bit off topic ...

Guys, this is a bit off-topic, but can we please avoid the use of small text here? I don't believe it's really appropriate for ANI; WP:ACCESSIBILITY and other policies make it clear that anything that makes text generally more of a challenge to read should be generally avoided--some of our editors have to work from devices with small displays and others have varying degrees of vision impairment. We sometimes allow this for superfluous "joke" content (I think it should probably be avoided even there), but for anything that touches upon (or even just supplements) discussion on editorial, policy, or conduct matters should be presented with a normal font and font size. Anyway, I've always been of the opinion that if you feel the need to say something small, it maybe doesn't need to be said at all! (Hey, that has great meter!) Though for the record, I thought your comments actually were perfectly relevant and consequential--which is the other reason I removed the small tags. All that said, I hope you don't mind. :) Snow let's rap 08:54, 17 November 2018 (UTC) Meh. If we think our <small> or {{small}} output is a bit too small, this should be discussed at WT:MOSACCESS, a target size to change it to agreed upon, and MediaWiki:Common.css changed to implement that. Many of us use one-step-smaller (not excessively small) text to mark up material that's pertinent to the conversation but maybe not to the central matter and likely not of interest to everyone (e.g., only to a few people in a sub-thread).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:25, 17 November 2018 (UTC) Respectfully, that's a short-sighted (pun not intended) view of this issue; you have no way of knowing who would want to see or respond to that content, and this essentially boils down to an equality of access issue (and not for nothing, but the WMF has actually adopted an official resolution that says that the policies of local projects are not allowed to override such concerns). I don't think that users with vision impairment or who can only edit from a mobile device are likely to view this as a "meh" issue. And yes, the ultimate place to discuss the policy language itself is WT:ACCESSIBILITY (indeed, there have been discussions there and other policy talk pages that have sharpened the language already, though clearly it needs to be more explicit), but it's been happening here a great deal lately, and this space is entirely about process and oversight, where equality of access is paramount to our objectives, so I just don't think it's appropriate. If there's something one is inclined to say that they are certain will be only of interest to a small handful of editors, probably it can be said elsewhere, but if they are going to say it here, it should be easily readable to all participants. You're a reasonable person, can't we agree that given the context and the concerns here, it makes sense to apply the precautionary principle when it comes to access to discussion about process? After-all, there are other and more elegant ways of emphasizing and de-emphasizing portions of a post if we think they are on the line of being important enough to mention here, but also likely to be secondary to the main thrust of one's comments. (I find that introductory clauses like "On a side note," or "Incidentally, I've found that..." work pretty well for this purpose.) Snow let's rap 00:01, 18 November 2018 (UTC) This is still the wrong venue. Try WT:MOSACCESS. ANI isn't going institute a ban on <small>.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:16, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

@James500: Please also apologize for your hounding of me and promise not to hound any more editors in the future, and don't ever call any other editors, even unspecified groups of hypothetical editors, "deletionists" again. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:26, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

James500 avoiding such stuff in the future would be implicit in his agreement to cease uncivil activity and battlegrounding.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:58, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

For the avoidance of doubt only, I have never hounded Hijiri88. The allegation made in this thread that I did is not true. If the community wishes me to provide a detailed explanation of why I made any edits to which that allegation relates, I will do so. James500 (talk) 13:54, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

As for specific words, this ANI has nothing to do with whether the word "deletionist" is per se uncivil (it isn't). I've already indicated to James500, above, that his long string of highly detailed "I won't do that any more" promises may be a bit off the mark. He doesn't need to "part with" a particular word (even "nonsense" - we do, after all, have WP:NONSENSE for when something is truly nonsensical). It's about the use to which he's been such putting words; it's all about intent. To the extent terms like "deletionist" have valid use (and they do), they should be reserved and used sparingly as adjectives to describe an unquestionable view or pattern when it is relevant to do so, not as labels to stick onto individuals as a fallacious ad hominem denigration tactic. WP:HOTHEADS provides some good generalized advice about this sort of thing.

"Deletionist" absolutely is pejorative when used to pigeonhole individuals, to set them up as enemies to combat, and to dismiss everything they say as worthless without actually addressing any of it. James500 should respond to the substance of arguments people make, and respond to arguments he disagrees with as arguments, not as stupid or malicious people (or exaggerated hobgoblins) to whack with his stick. Contrast James500 abuse of "deletionist" in the way someone else might use misuse "fascist" as an argument to ridicule against anyone politically right-of-center, versus ANI respondents' use of "inclusionist" in references to James500's stated views and his non-constructive "keep everything" pattern at AFD. See the difference? It's the same distinction as "We shouldn't hire Amy because she's Baptist" versus "Amy's Baptist and has a dim doctrinal view of Catholic crucifixes." Radically different use and intent.

This is also relates to the third concern of this ANI, after incivility and soapbox/battleground behavior: using rivers of off-topic "hand-waving" to mire discussions in noise. It's another disruptive form of failure to address substance. James500 actually seems to have started absorbing these kind of distinctions, though it took us a lot of ANI mileage to get there. In closing: if you think someone's argument really is nonsense in light of what a policy or a guideline or sources actually say, then prove it, don't just label its author. Clearly provide what you're certain is the correct analysis.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:58, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree with quite a bit of what you said there, in particular this: "To the extent terms like "deletionist" have valid use (and they do), they should be reserved and used sparingly as adjectives to describe an unquestionable view or pattern when it is relevant to do so, not as labels to stick onto individuals...", with especially strong agreement as to the italicized clause. However, the question is, when an editor employs these particular tactics, in these particular words, have they demonstrated incivility, hostility, or disruption such that they should be sanctioned by the community? Or have they simply embraced a form of irrational argument that weakens their standing among reasonable editors, but which otherwise falls within the scope of permissible commentary? In my opinion, it is more the latter than the former, at least as regards the specific instances that have been reported here thus far. And honestly, the comparison between "deletionist" and "fascist" is a pretty obvious false analogy that illustrates the fault line between the argument you are advancing and my own perspective on this; those two terms are not remotely identical in form or function and indeed, it is a rare context indeed where calling someone a fascist would not be seen as provocative and inflammatory. Almost any use of the word "fascist" in a dispute is going to be less acceptable than any use of the word "deletionist". Besides, isn't this point also moot--isn't that another habit which James has pledged to stop indulging in? Snow ^{let's rap} 08:41, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Some time ago (possibly several months) I decided to reduce my use of the word "deletionist" to a minimum. I will not use the word "deletionist" to describe editors. I do not believe in the existence of "deletionists". IIRC, I have nominated hundreds of articles for speedy deletion (an admin may have to confirm this as I may not have logged or patrolled all of them). Does that make me a "deletionist"? I do not think the word is meaningful. I immediately stopped using the word "nonsense" when Hijiri88 asked me not to use it at WT:NBOOK. I have been trying to accommodate the editors who are criticising me, and minimise conflict with them, for some time. I do not know if they are aware this. James500 (talk) 09:20, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I've indicated awareness of it twice, though I'm not sure what you've said mollifies others, due to concerns that the same stuff (or effectively the same, e.g. using different denigrating words, or a different tactic for undermining WP applying its well-accepted notability guidelines) will start up all over again after some period of laying low. It's basically a matter of "try it and see" versus "let's not go there", at this point. I have no objection to the former because sometimes people's habits will change after an ANI like this. But I don't think this ANI should be closed without at least a warning as to the central civility, discussion-bludgeoning, and gaming/lobbying-against-notability concerns.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:34, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Judging by the WP:WALLOFTEXT, this has gone past Trout territory and straight into Whale.--Auric talk 14:51, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Oppose topic ban I am under the impression that I am supposed to !vote on this. I do not want to edit notability or deletion discussions unless the community does not oppose my doing so. However, I would find the existence of a topic ban so humiliating and distressing that I would be prepared to do anything the community wishes (other than something even more humiliating or distressing) in order to avoid such a ban. A topic ban is therefore not necessary. James500 (talk) 19:04, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Much of the commentary in this ANI case relates to other editors' perceptions, assumptions or speculation about why I made certain edits, what I was thinking at the time, what I meant by them, my motives, how I expected them to be understood by others and so on. This commentary is far from entirely accurate. If the community wishes, I will disclose what I was really thinking when I made those edits. James500 (talk) 19:04, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

A topic ban is therefore not necessary. - I appreciate the sentiment that a formal sanction can be humiliating/distressing, and, at least speaking for myself, I would be happy if there were an outcome that addressed people's concerns expressed in this thread without effecting those kinds of feelings. If this could be taken as a self-imposed/voluntary topic ban on notability/deletion to be documented in the close, I, for one, would not see the need for something formally imposed/logged at this time. On reflection, given the other assurances made in this thread, I would be satisfied if it were specifically notability-related and deletion-related policy/guideline/essay pages in particular (in other words, it would not extend to e.g. individual deletion discussions themselves). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 00:20, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

This would work for me as well. A number of James500's AfDs are fine, as he is adept at finding sources, especially on topics relating to books. I would mention for him to be careful on AfD's on other topics, where I would welcome his vote as long as they are specific and explain why the topic would pass notability guidelines, using available sources to do so - so no quoting WP:PRESERVE as policy. SportingFlyer talk 00:30, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

I assume what you mean to say is "no quoting WP:PRESERVE as a policy relevant to an article notability determination"?; WP:PRESERVE itself is policy, and a somewhat important and broadly supported editorial priority. It's just that it clearly, by its own terms, only applies to content within an article, not a given subject's notability. If James has been quoting it in AfD as a presumption for not removing article's, I could see why some would find that vexing. Snow ^{let's rap} 08:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

As far as I can remember, I have never cited WP:PRESERVE as an argument for keeping an article, or as an argument that a topic was notable. I only cited it, in conjuction with WP:ATD, as an argument for merger. It may be, however, that other editors have misunderstood the intended meaning of my !votes. James500 (talk) 09:33, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

I've read through a number of your AfDs. !Votes like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Digital Imprimatur (an "oppose" vote) says the content cannot be deleted because a viable merge candidate exists per WP:PRESERVE. Or here, where Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Trench_(novel) (another oppose vote) where it claims the page is "ineligible for deletion" because it has a proper merge candidate, yet there is no "merge" vote or discussion of notability of the topic - just that it can't be "deleted." There are several others as well. While your argument is clearer now, this is still an extremely confusing case of wikilawyering. SportingFlyer talk 10:55, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Both of those AfDs are old and use a form of !vote that I have deprecated and would not use today. The rationale I gave in the AfD for "The Trench" would not happen today. I would have found the book reviews that were cited in that AfD. I no longer use the word "oppose" as a way of indicating that I am have no objection to a page being merged/redirected. James500 (talk) 17:17, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Oh, geez, that's obviously not a valid rationale. I could easily write an article on my mom's dinner with the Beatles in the late '60s (a dinner party organized by the head of Norman Petty Studio, where Buddy Holly recorded, when the Fab Four were on a US tour and in the Southwest for some reason – maybe on their way between major cities, unless they actually did play in Albuquerque). This trash could not be kept on the basis that it would be technically possible to merge it into The Beatles or some other article about them. If it's trash, it gets taken out. What PRESERVE means is that if we have sourced, encyclopedic material (passes WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE, etc.) about a topic that actually is notable at another page, but this material is in a page on a non-notable topic, then it should be merged not deleted, when this is feasible. It's not a keep rationale at AfD. And ideas like "this would be non-indiscriminate if the topic were notable" doesn't work. E.g., you can't merge the breed history of a non-notable alleged breed to List of dog breeds or Collie since the history of a "backyard breeder" experiment is indiscriminate trivia in the context of a broader topic like breed groups. Mention is often appropriate, though, especially for completeness (e.g. don't exclude a non-notable band from the list of who performed at a notable music festival, even if you obviously can't dump their bio in there). Context is king.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:51, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: You should have a look at some of Andrew's "keep" !votes sometime; he frequently cites PRESERVE as though it applied to one-sentence sub-stubs, content-forks and completely unsourced nonsense. Honestly, if it weren't for James's rhetoric, I would have next to no problem with his AFD activity (I would say I agree with somewhere between 70% and 90% of his !votes in principle); the same can definitely not be said for Andrew. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:19, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, if it the other editor's AfD/notability stuff is or becomes problematic, that's best saved for another ANI, if it comes to that. Hopefully just discussion, and observing ANIs like this one, and not seeing one's AfD !votes taken seriously, and so on, will shift the behavior.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:49, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Request for advice

I would like advice as to what I should do from an uninvolved admin. Should I respond to the allegations, or apologise for saying the word "nonsense" or for saying anything else that I actually said, or offer other concessions, or wait and see, or something else? Please tell me what to do. I am absolutely terrified and in enormous distress. James500 (talk) 08:04, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

You could apologize for all the disruption demonstrated above. Are you really claiming that saying the word "nonsense" is all the wrong you've done? Because if you are that recalcitrant in your unwillingness to abide by our policies I imagine the number of editors who think the solution is an indef block will rise substantially... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:42, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Advice from an uninvolved admin is pretty much what this process is for: the closer (more often than not an admin) either imposes a community-suggested sanction that keeps the editor out of this kind of trouble, or a warning that advises how to avoid ending up back here again for the same issue (or – should it apply – summarizes that the community take on the matter is that the reported editor did nothing wrong and the filer is being a bonehead or has a nefarious motive).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:17, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

• There's independent advice at WP:ANI advice and this generally seems quite sound. As the issue here is that James500 is accused of being prolix, points 6, 7, 10, 11, 16 seem most appropriate. In summary:

6. Keep it brief.

7. Don't badger

10. Keep calm

11. Don't get upset

16. Speak moderately.

Andrew D. (talk) 16:04, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Davidson above gives good advice, but deliberately doesn't leave edsums explaining why an edit took place. This is considered incredibly rude by most editors, so don't you forget. -Roxy, the Prod. wooF 19:32, 13 November 2018 (UTC) Modified to reflect reality by Roxy, the Prod. wooF 12:28, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Not leaving an edit summary is "Incredibly rude"? I think not, but in any case, it's specifically not required. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:06, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I seem to recall an editor getting site-banned at one point where their lack of edit summaries was seen as disruptive, they were placed under an editing restriction requiring them to use edit summaries, which they initially abode by but then started to ignore. It's kinda off-topic here except that Roxy recently opened an ANI thread on Andrew requesting he be banned from de-prodding, and was overruled by a large number of editors claiming that we don't ban people from doing things that policy allows them to do. Anyway, sometimes editors go out of their way not to leave any form of edit summary (even an automatic one indicating which section of the page they edited), and while that's not forbidden, I do think it's a pretty clear sign of someone trying to hide something. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:29, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Sure would be nice if this could return the actual topic of this ANI. While the advice above from Andrew D. isn't wrong, by any means, it only addresses a fraction of the problem, the other big chunk being the activism against WP's notability guidelines themselves. This has to stop. Normally I'm inclined to take someone at their word when they say it will stop, but we have indications that this editor has made similar promises before, laid low for a short while, then gone right back to their anti-consensus campaigning. If this doesn't resolve now for a T-ban, we'll likely be right back here in a few weeks or months re-reviewing the same evidence plus more just like it and then issue a T-ban. Worse could happen, but it's rather inefficient, since the problems are unmistakable and long-term, and the end result predictable.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:30, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: I've read a lot of the above but can you point me (on my talk page if it makes more sense if it's going to be long) to where he's made similar promises before? My remembered experience with James has purely been on book AfDs. I only tend to weigh in on those when I think they're keeps and have seen alignment there. I can't recall him being off base in book AfDs that I thought should be deleted or in areas where I tend to more often be vocally on the delete side (e.g. articles about organizations/corporations). His gaming of the tracker is no good and so I would like to see a promise to stop doing that (which some have indicated above has already happened) but pending that evidence of promises not kept in the past I would suggest a close reflecting James' promises and we move on. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:58, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I have been bolding my AfD !votes for some time (probably several months now), and will continue doing so if I am allowed to continue to edit AfDs. James500 (talk) 02:08, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I briefly described the string of events that led to that development above: James claimed that use of the AFD stats tool was "wikihounding", I asked him at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/GJ 3522 (and a few other places before that) to bold your !votes, you responded with Are you going to stop trolling and violating WP:HOUND, or shall I just put Template:Retired on my user page? Your behaviour has completely exhausted my patience. If you plan to continue trolling and wikihounding, please let me know now, because I will simply leave.[127], I responded on my talk page (as I know James would blank anything I left on his without indicating whether or not he had read it), and James pretended to rage-quit the encyclopedia. I'm guessing someone probably told him off-wiki that continuing to evade scrutiny despite being asked to stop would probably result in him being indeffed, so hedecided to finally give in once he came back a week later. This whole thing is why it's so ironic that the editors who are trying to defend him are doing so with the AFD stats tool he hates so much. (And how one of them is actually insisting that I'm the one making bogus accusations of hounding: James only stopped accusing me of hounding when I accidentally happened to notice that he had been hounding me.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:50, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

• Some thoughts: I'm a little torn on all of this. Some of the editors who are here accusing James of tendentiousness are community members whose opinions I respect, and in general, I am pretty much for a significantly higher standard of civility than has been generally enforced in recent years. And yet, I can't help feel a little underwhelemed by a lot of the evidence that has been presented against James here. I'm left to presume that there must be a lot more context that was not included here to explain these concerns, but I can only speak to the matters that were raised here.

To wit, I'll start with "nonsense": using this word, especially with regularity, certainly doesn't paint the picture of the most open-minded or collaborative contributor, I will grant that. Similar to the opinion I expressed above to Hijiri about "deletionist", it is the sort of thing which I tend to view as weakening one's view rather than augmenting it--at least when used too casually. But is it generally outside the scope of civil discourse? No, I would not say that it is, typically. I mean, context is queen, so of course I can think of any number of instances where it would be overly aggressive/hostile, no doubt. But few, if any, of the instances raised here would qualify as brightline violations of WP:CIV. And I think I'm often perceived as being nitpicky about adherence to WP:CIV, so if I am not convinced, it's probably unlikely that a sanction for this would be forthcoming. In any event, James has chosen to address concerns about this by agreeing not to lean on the term anymore, so that seems a closed issue, unless the proposition is that he will not follow through.

As to his POV on WP:NOTABILITY...it's dumb. It's short-sighted. It's completely infeasible. It would, in my opinion, should the community ever adopted it, invite such a deluge of special interest editing and--shall I say it?--nonsense that the reputation, quality, and utility of this project might never recover. It's a poor theory, is my point. But is it WP:disruptive for him to even forward this opinion? I don't see how it would be. Bad ideas get forwarded here every day, but we rely on the consensus process to filter them, and that's usually pretty reliable when they are such bad ideas and where the change is so fundamental that it would need a huge amount of support to generate inertia for the change, as would be the case here. This site is a laboratory of ideas if ever one existed, being the largest collaborative, bottom-up endeavour of its sort in human history. To an extent, it is healthy to have a certain number of people at the extremes; or at least, it's a an indication of health in our consensus process and culture of open-mindedness. Extreme positions when it comes to editorial matters are only a concern when they are exercised in bad faith or when the party expressing them cannot accept overwhelming consensus. Now I can conceive that maybe there has been such bad-faith/disruptive behaviour associated with regard to James that is driving the concerns here, but if that's the case, the evidence has not been well presented, despite some very long posts with many diffs. I certainly think numerous of the comments presented suggest James has lost the plot vis-a-vis notability and "deletionism", but I don't see glaring problems with how he presents those opinions, which is what we would need for something to be actionable here.

Of the comments which do touch upon behavioural issues needing addressing, most can be found in Rhododendrites' large-ish post above. Things like refusing to indent, or follow standard !vote formatting are in my opinion more significant problems than they may seem at first blush. However, I'm not sure how the course of action Rhododendrites suggests (endorsing SMcCandlish's proposed topic ban on notability) addresses those issues. In general I think all of the complaints/frustrations various community members have with James (which may be perfectly legitimate in and of themselves) have been amalgamated into one monolithic sense of frustration, but we'd need to tease them out again before action can be taken. And notably James seems to be making an effort to make concessions above. (Admitedly I don't know him well enough to gauge his level of sincerity though). I'm not going to !vote "oppose" on the notability TBAN just yet, because, as I say, I trust the perspectives of editors who have raised concerns here, so I'm open to being won over. But I'd have to see a strong showing of obstructionism, rather than just evidence that his views lay at an extreme. And I say this as someone who is at the diametrically opposite side of this issue--I think SNGs are far, far too permissive with regard to the content they let in. Snow ^{let's rap} 06:19, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

@Snow Rise: I've addressed much of this (before seeing it) in a post above about this not being about particular words. The other main theme of this, "is it WP:disruptive for him to even forward this opinion?", isn't what has been under discussion or what the evidence shows. That is a long-term pattern of railing against Wikipedia having and apply notability guidelines at all and (an issue raised by others, not me, because I did not "diff dig" very deep nor outside of talk pages) trying to thwart them at AFD (by arguing to keep everything) since he has zero traction in getting the N guidelines deleted or substantively changed. If I recall, we've only identified a single case in which James500 has agreed with an article's deletion despite having made himself an AFD fixture, and even if there are more it's something he virtually never does (he's gone out of his way to hide this by gaming the AFD stats). This is in fact disruptive, of Wikipedia operating the way the community wants it to operate. There is no "amalgamation" of unrelated concerns in this ANI. James500's problematic editing is all notability, all the time. In looking at the last month of James500's edits, I could not find a single case of him being uncivil, abusing process, derailing discussions, misrepresenting the meaning of a policy or guideline, or engaging in "WP is wrong and must change, or else" behavior in any other topic area. It looks to me kind of like you're responding to the frustrated tone of Hijiri88 and Rhododendrites, deciding they're being mean, and not actually looking at the their evidence on its own merits.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:19, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I do not !vote to keep all of the articles at AfD. I generally ignore AfDs about articles on topics that I consider potentially non-notable, because I do not have the time or resources or patience to pursue their deletion. In particular, I lack access to certain paywalled databases and certain sites that my browser security settings, which I do not know how to modify, will not let me. The most that I can usually do when I find an article that I consider potentially non-notable is to report that I have looked at Google and found nothing, as I did at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hurts Publishing (where my comment was responsible for the deletion of the article; in that case I was unable to access HighBeam, therefore I could not complete a WP:BEFORE search). The reason that my accuracy rate is above 81% is that on the order of 81%+ of the topics I !vote to keep actually are notable within the true meaning of the guidelines. The idea that I am trying to undermine the guidelines fails to take into account the fact that I am only one person and I am completely incapable of doing that, because the other participants would shout me down. James500 (talk) 20:59, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

"It looks to me kind of like you're responding to the frustrated tone of Hijiri88 and Rhododendrites, deciding they're being mean, and not actually looking at the their evidence on its own merits." Can I trouble you to re-read my comments a second time and tell me if you still think this is the major thrust of my arguments, because, respectfully, I do not think that captures the general sentiment of my observations above and if that is the message you took from it, I don't think you read it as carefully as you might have. Nowhere that I can see have I impled that anyone has been mean or mistreated James, and I can assure you that no such perception coloured my interpretation of their (or your) evidence. And I think I did a pretty heavy (indeed, verbose) accounting of why I just do not believe you have made your case for the sanction you are proposing with the conduct evidence you have presented here thus far. As to your more immediate argument: there is no policy that says James may not !vote "keep" in 99% (nor indeed 100%) of AfDs he participates in, nor is there any principle of community consensus which holds that he is being WP:disruptive if he !votes in service of an extreme editorial philosophy, even if he does so consistently and in a way where it seems improbable to another editor that he is making a full accounting of policy as it applies to those facts. The cure to that sort of non-nuanced, sloppy argumentation is that, if his opinion does not jive with the policies as they apply to the specifics of that particular content issue, it can be discounted. And if he makes a habit of it, other community members will be of the habit of dismissing his perspectives.

At present, I feel your arguments about James' conduct blur the lines between the kinds of outright disruptive behaviours we must attempt to control and expression of more subjective, a priori editorial perspectives and priorities, which are not in our purview to regulate--not as a consensus on this project always has (and in my opinion, has needed to) operate. Again, I do not dismiss the possibility that there is more to the story here than has been presented so far, and that I may not be convinced that some sort of community action is warranted here. But I for one would need to see evidence of conduct that is of a substantially different character (that is, constituting more blatant gamesmanship or incivility) than has been presented thus far. And the response of several other editors here give me to believe I am not alone in this. Indeed, I believe I have expressed substantially more openness to the possibility that you have a legitimate complaint here, than some others have, and the entire point of my last post was to try to lay out the kind of conduct I would need to see in order to endorse such a substantial sanction as a TBAN from all things notability. As to my reference to amalgamation--my point is that I view certain isolated behaviours discussed here as easier to handle individually. For example, the indenting and bolding of !votes. But on some of those particulars, James has already given ground. I doubt very much, however, that he will concede to removing himself from all discussion impinging up notability (his presumably snarky comment to that effect above not withstanding. Snow ^{let's rap} 08:04, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I didn't mean to mischaracterize your original point; it just seemed to be (and still does) focused on whether having an opinion and expressing it is, or is central to, the issues of this ANI, which isn't the case. It's just about behavior patterns and their effects. No one's critical of James500 for disliking WP's notability system or proposing that it be changed or scrapped, but for tirelessly trying to undermine it and being terrible to other editors while doing so. The difference is meaningful. Constantly pushing the same idea after consensus has declined to accept it is a priori disruptive if it continues indefinitely. "There is no policy against [x]" isn't an argument often accepted here in a case like this, because there actually is a policy against it (no matter what "it" or "[x]" is, in narrow terms of a specific type of action) when it becomes disruptive. And ANI decisions are not [usually, and we hope] based on lawyering over the exact wording of policies anyway, but an assessment of whether the reported party is exhibiting at least a baseline of competence in collaborative editing.

So, it has nothing to do with whether James500 is entitled to an opinion about how good our notability guidelines are, but whether we're going to be really rudely brow-beaten with it until the end of time. Anyway, going round and round in argument with you isn't my intent. I do understand your take on the matter more clearly now, though still find myself disagreeing with it, mainly because the "certain isolated behaviours" are not isolated, but part of a general pattern of anti-notability grandstanding. As you suggest, he may be unlikely to actually remove himself from notability discussions despite saying he would. But, worse can happen than having to re-examine the same and additional evidence at a later ANI if the pattern resumes.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:20, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Did you mean XfD or AfD instead of ANI in these cases "thwart them at ANI" and "an ANI fixture"? Nil Einne (talk) 09:33, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, and will blame lack of coffee. I fixed that in the original post (and fixed lack of coffee in mah belleh).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:55, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Close

• Close I believe there has been overwhelming evidence that James has been regularly disruptive in the past (even the very recent past). However, in the troubling areas he has already taken aboard the criticism before this ANI filing or agreed to work on them as this discussion has proceeded. Specifically the promises James has made I would hope to see noted in a close would be: avoiding walls of text (especially in notability discussion), following indenting conventions, appropriately formatting XfD !votes, and that he will not engage in tendentious discussions and labeling of other editors. I don't blame SmCCandlish and Rhododendrites for reaching their wits end. Were James not willing to make what I think are credible promises of change some measure of sanction would be appropriate. Instead we should see if he can live by his promises; if he can't something more than the tbans being discussed would strike mas appropriate. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:33, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I basically agree with the above, although I'm perhaps a bit more skeptical than Barkeep about whether the promises made by James in this thread will be kept in the long term: my first interaction with him in April ended with him saying I will refrain from making comments about types of behaviour or points of view in order to make you happy. I apologise unreservedly if my comments appeared to anyone to refer to editors, as that was certainly not my intention. Clearly, I should have worded them far more carefully., my second interaction with him consisted of him comparing AFD nominators to vandals, and my third consisted (summary diff; click all the diffs inside the diff for the actual evidence) of him following me to a bunch of discussions while hypocritically accusing me, about a half-dozen times, of hounding him, so I'm naturally loath to believe him when he issues essentially the same contrite-seeming apology and promise to do better again. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:21, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, it's more "on the record" this time. Anyway, I'm okay with Barkeep49's draft close of sorts. And even if it should turn sour, I'd be fine with "something more than the tbans being discussed" not being what we leap to; we typically use escalating sanctions, and a topic ban is often very effective at both preventing the disruption while retaining the editor and (less often) reforming the editor's behavior and permitting an eventual return to the topic. PS: I think Rhodo and Hijiri may have been at wit's end from long interaction with James500 that I wasn't aware of. For my part, this was a routine civility-and-soapboxing-I-see-right-now ANI. My personal history with James500 doesn't go back more than one recent thread at at WT:NBOOK.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:09, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I'd support such a closure. (No preference whether this or my earlier support.) Nil Einne (talk) 19:52, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

• I've requested closure at WP:ANRFC since this is clearly "talked out" at this point.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:05, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
• I also support such a closure. As I've noted, James500 does do a good job finding sources on book-related AfDs, and he was very helpful during a bad bulk AfD nomination on a number of foreign language articles. Problems exist, but they're fixable, and my hope going forward is all of James' !votes at AfD will be strong and meaningful (and, to be clear, I'm specifically referring to the !votes which cite incorrect notability guidelines, or ones which are overly wikilawyered as noted above, without commenting on sourcing). SportingFlyer talk 00:52, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@SportingFlyer: By a bad bulk AfD nomination on a number of foreign language articles, you wouldn't be referring to Tyw7 (talk · contribs)'s Shadowowl (talk · contribs)'s (good-faith, controversial at worst, per the lengthy discussion that took place on this page at the time) nomination earlier this year of a bunch of shitty one-sentence non-articles created by Starzynka (talk · contribs)? I found James's conduct there to be pretty poor: the actual reason virtually all of the pages needed to be redirected/deleted (I recently explained why the latter may be preferable in some cases) had nothing to do with notability, and so James's gathering of sources, where he did as much, was not helpful unless he actually expanded the article into something meaningful, which he has done from time to time but certainly a lot less than simply showing up to the AFD and !voting "keep" without consideration of our deletion policy and what will be best for readers. If you were referring to that incident, I think you should probably strike it, and if you were not you should probably clarify, since it certainly looks like you are. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC) (mod. 08:54, 19 November 2018 (UTC) )

@Hijiri88: I'm not familiar with that particular incident, or it's long forgotten. I was thinking more along the lines of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Družba Pere Kvržice and a whole boatload of other articles, particularly foreign language articles, that were nominated nearly in bulk without a WP:BEFORE search earlier this year. SportingFlyer talk 08:43, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@SportingFlyer: Sorry, that was what I meant. I commented in a few of them, but forgot the name of the nominator; the one that sticks in my mind more than the others is In der Falle, which Shadowowl initially nominated but botched and withdrew -- when I checked the one I commented on now it was the one that was re-nominated by another editor. The "BEFORE search" you refer to doesn't apply to one-sentence content-forks where notability is not the issue, as it was not with any of the 100+ articles Shadowowl nominated. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:54, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: I stand by my comments about those nominations. I also have no idea why a WP:BEFORE search wouldn't apply in this situation, because a lot of the foreign language articles were nominated on failing SNG and GNG indicators. A large number of these passed notability guidelines, but in different languages, and I remember James500 being helpful in saving them. SportingFlyer talk 09:37, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I criticized ShadowOwl at the time for the awkward wording of the nominations, but it was clear enough to anyone who really cared enough to look that "notability" (let alone specifics of GNG or SNG) was not the reason for nominating. "Notability" is just so prevalent a concept that the word gets bandied about where it doesn't really belong. An argument could easily be made that what he actually meant was "This subject is not notable enough that in the decade or so this article has been on Wikipedia anyone has bothered to come by and write anything about it" (and I'm pretty sure when I did make this argument at the previous ANI on him he agreed with me), and that's a simple truism, regardless of whether this or that topic actually meets GNG, so your continuing to refuse to drop the stick on it strikes me as a little odd. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:15, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I didn't realise I was holding a stick, to be honest. I'm just glad a number of notable foreign language stubs weren't deleted, and I'm trying to draw attention to the fact the Keep votes James made which discuss certain articles passing WP:NBOOK are good !votes, even if those books were in different langauges. SportingFlyer talk 22:50, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

James's !votes in those AFDs did not help improve the encyclopedia, and those among the Starzynka-created non-articles that were kept as opposed to redirected despite nothing being done to fix them are now something of a blotch on the encyclopedia. Yes, James is not the worst offender when it comes to auto-!voting keep in AFDs and then (at best) not lifting a finger to improve the articles or (at worst) actively hindering their improvement (that honour belongs to Andrew, IMO), but every single one of those AFDs where he !voted keep without himself doing any of the heavy lifting to fix the article and make it not a content-fork was ... well, I wouldn't call for him to be sanctioned just for making some disruptive !votes, but you can hardly use them to defend him. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:02, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

My entire point has been James500 has been capable of making good AfD votes, and I hope all of them are good going forward as a result of this ANI. I obviously still disagree with you on the notability of those articles and you're taking me to task for having a perfectly valid opinion just because you disagree with it. Let's please move on. SportingFlyer talk 07:11, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I obviously still disagree with you on the notability of those articles and you're taking me to task for having a perfectly valid opinion just because you disagree with it. You can't be serious. Did you read anything I wrote above? Where did I say "the articles (sic) aren't notable"? Or anything approaching that? You should strike the above comment, lest your competence to continue editing this encyclopedia be brought into question. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:20, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not striking the comment, and I'm shocked you're suggesting competency issues based off of this exchange, and I still have no idea why you have decided to turn into an argument. I remember this situation as a user bulk nominating articles for AfD, mostly foreign language stubs, basically as fast as you could refresh the page and without doing any semblance of a WP:BEFORE search. At no point during the AfD process was it clear that the "crappy bot article" the nominator discussed was created by the same user and needed to be deleted en masse. Unfortunately, a number of those stubs were indeed notable, including several articles for notable Croatian books and films which are in the national Croatian archives. I specifically remember James500 making helpful keep votes during this discussion, citing NBOOK for books on different languages, which are valid !keep votes and demonstrates that James500 can in fact make positive contributions to AfD. I mentioned this in order to colour my comments above where I was generally in favour of a ban with the general understanding there was a problem here. Also there's no policy I've seen that says keep !voters must expand the articles they !vote keep on, nor do I think these articles are generally a "scourge" on the encyclopedia, as the Croatian ones which were nominated were clearly notable and just needed someone to add references showing they passed WP:GNG. While I am making the assumption that other languages which were nominated would have the same problem as the one I'm most familiar with, and maybe the entire remainder of the bot articles are a "scourge," I don't remember that to be the case. SportingFlyer talk 09:40, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I remember this situation as a user bulk nominating articles for AfD, mostly foreign language stubs, basically as fast as you could refresh the page and without doing any semblance of a WP:BEFORE search. Your memory is faulty. None of them were "foreign language", all of them were stubs (technically WP:SUBSTUBs), and BEFORE (at least in terms of "searching" for sources) didn't apply because the actual deletion criterion they met was that they were content forks with no value in their current form: some editors, apparently including you, read the issue as being about notability, and while the nominator's initial, clumsy, wording supported this interpretation, later clarifications, including the lengthy ANI discussion, did not. The fact that you apparently read something in my above messages to you as implying I shared your belief that the issue was one of "notability", but that I thought the topics were not notable, does indeed bring your competence into question, as I have been clear throughout that that is not the case, and your refusal to retract or apologize for this despite your being wrong having been thoroughly demonstrated makes me seriously question your good faith. I have no idea why you have turned this into an argument, honestly; you could have just accepted that you and I have different memories of the event (you seem to have only commented twice in the ANI discussions, so I wouldn't blame you for having had a completely different perspective of the whole affair) and moved on, but you seem intent on trying to get under my skin with this IDHT "You think the topics aren't notable" act. (BTW, this comment would appear to put you on a fairly remote fringe of the community when it comes to handling nonsense one-sentence non-articles: these articles should be kept as they pass notability guidelines is completely out of line with policy; the standard view, if there is one, is these topics might merit articles that should be kept, as they pass notability guidelines, but these "articles" should not be kept as they contain less information than our readers could get from a single word in a list embedded in a larger article.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:09, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: I'm not trying to get under your skin. You asked me to strike my initial response, which I don't think is a reasonable request based on my participation. It's now clear we have very different memories of what happened. In one of my three diffs you've posted, I link to a number of articles which were nominated for deletion by ShadowOwl which were NOT Starzynka-created bot articles. All of these were notable and I believe all of these were kept. It looks like Ellis Coliseum is still a single-sentence article though, I'll work on that one. And by "foreign language" I mean the primary language of the film or book isn't English where notability is a little bit harder to establish. (I'm clearly not suggesting we keep non-English pages on the English encyclopedia, nor have I ever suggested - or at least remember suggesting - we bulk-keep a bunch of stub articles.) My role in this event was trying to save the articles which were actually notable. I don't appreciate being labeled as being on a "fairly remote fringe of the community" when my posts on the ANI thread are in line with the other users who opened the thread, both of whom I respect. SportingFlyer talk 11:54, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

You listed five articles, out of well over a hundred, and what I wrote above applied, at the time of nomination, at least two of them (one of which you only now, four months later, expanded beyond a single sentence [yes, it was technically three sentences, but would have been better written if the three were one]); of the other three, one has since been redirected (read: what I said should have been the short-term measure even if the topics were notable was actually implemented) and the last consisted exclusively (and still largely consists) of unsourced BLP. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:30, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

You were right, one was redirected at the AfD I linked. But both of the stadiums - the three sentence articles - didn't receive a single delete !vote at AfD apart from ShadowOwl, and a number of the other nominations weren't good nominations. And none of this actually matters for the point I was originally trying to make. Let's please leave it here. SportingFlyer talk 12:48, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Word count

• The issue here is being prolix, right? So far, this section is over 130Kb – over 20,000 words of verbiage. Please see WP:POT, WP:SAUCE and WP:NOTFORUM, which states "Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia." Andrew D. (talk) 10:16, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

  No, the issues are being uncivil, derailing discussions with off-topic rants (some of which are long, but that's beside the point), and lobbying against consensus-accepted guidelines. You would know that if you'd skimmed even the original post, instead of deciding it would be clever (it's not) to vent about the length of the discussion because you think it's ironic that anyone early on mentioned post length in some context or another. What you've done here is an example of WP:NOTFORUM; this page doesn't exist for you to impress people with your jokey wit.

  Please see also WP:CHUNK in particular: If a noticeboard action, proposal, or other bunch of process requires lengthy discussion, then it does, and that isn't wrong. This is a process page, not an article or its talk page. ANI in particular is not about the task of creating an encyclopedia, it's a meta-process for deciding whether certain editors and/or their behavior are impeding that goal, and if so then what to do about it. And the length of this discussion was quite productive; what probably would have resulted in sanctions like a topic-ban (if this had been tersely listed diffs followed by knee-jerk one-liner !votes) instead looks likely to result in a negotiated agreement to desist from certain unconstructive habits. That's a good thing for all concerned. In short, if you don't like long ANI threads, don't read them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:04, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Andrew, I hardly think it's fair to tell the winner of WAM 2017 that he is not "staying on the task of creating an encyclopedia" when he is unable to participate in WAM 2018 to the same degree due to his being too busy IRL (I told SMcC on my talk page, but ... translating 100,000 Japanese characters, in essentially three weeks, while also working another full-time job: I'd like to see you do that) and only participated in this thread (and the other one on you a couple weeks back) because of (a) a sense of obligation to the project and (b) other people having opened them without consulting me. The fact that someone, quite possibly you or James (you have a demonstrable history of "good hand / bad hand" sockpuppetry and James is ... everything said above), chose the other day to log out of their account and post a harassing message about me that creeped me the fuck out would honestly be enough of an excuse never to edit Wikipedia again, and it's not even the worst I've seen this year. So don't ever talk down to me like that again. EVER. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 20:25, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@Andrew Davidson: I'm still waiting for an apology for the above harassing, off-topic message from you. You should consider yourself extremely lucky I didn't immediately open another thread on you as soon as you posted it, instead choosing to give you a chance to apologize; your refusing to do so despite continuing to make disruptive auto-keep !votes on AFDs despite copyright problems having already been demonstrated is ... well, it should not be allowed. If you are not going to own up to and apologize for your disruptive edits, you should leave the project, not just go somewhere else and make more disruptive edits there. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:26, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

And FWIW, I'm increasingly certain that the IP was neither you nor James, but actually the last disruptive editor both of you showed up to defend because, as far as both of you are concerned, an "inclusionist" editor fights with a "deletionist" editor, the former is right no matter what else they do, and the latter is in the wrong. Yeah, anyone could show up on his talk page and pretend to be him, but how many would know about his penchant for calling me a self-proclaimed "japanese expert"? You have not apologized for your defense of that toxic editor who made building the encyclopedia a hellish experience for me for months, nor for your current defense of this toxic editor, and you dare tell me that I'm not focused enough on building the encyclopedia? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:24, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I have experienced eleven days of degrading public humiliation and behaviour that I find wholly unbearable here. There are a number of things that I should probably say, but I am not in any condition to say them now as a result of what I have experienced here. In fact I am finding it incredibly difficult to edit at all. I do not know if I will be able to continue to contribute to Wikipedia at all after what has taken place here and the effect it has had on me. James500 (talk) 00:01, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

I have experienced eleven days of degrading public humiliation and behaviour that I find wholly unbearable here. Believe me: as someone who's gone through all of this and much, much more, I can tell you with confidence that what JoshuSasori (talk · contribs) subjected me to both on-wiki and in real life dwarfs even the worst of that, while the lightest of that was far worse than what you've been subjected to (note that that thread was several thousand bytes longer than this one, despite having been open for only six days and involved only one of the project's most verbose users -- me -- as opposed to this threads four -- SMcC, you, Snow Rise and me), and you chose to belittle/dismiss my experience with that editor for no reason other than to get under my skin and only backed down when I asked an admin to tell you off for it. You can't go around abusing and harassing anyone you don't like, then the moment they make even a tiny attempt to call you out on it cry foul. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:44, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:IQ125

Well, I tried to avoid taking this action but IQ125 obviously WP:DIDNTHEARTHAT. Their edit history at Irish Bull Terrier has been highly disruptive as the following diffs will demonstrate:

Editor was warned

• 11-15-2018 - I posted a friendly warning, he deleted
• 11-16-2018 - harassing mockery of my warning to them on my TP
• 11-16-2018 - notified of this discussion

Editor argues to keep citing an unreliable source (self-published book by unknown author in limited print) despite RS such as The Telegraph and quotes by the RSPCA and editor of Dog World calling it a fictitious breed created to circumvent dog fighting laws

• 11-12-2018
• 11-14-2018
• 11-14-2018 - insists unreliable source adds "strength to the article"
• 11-05-2018
• 11-15-2018

Disruptive reverts and incivility

• 11-13-2018 - disruptive revert of Merge tag and properly sourced material
• 11-15-2018 - disruptive revert of Merge tag and properly sourced material
• 11-15-2018 - disruptive revert - restores reverted material
• 11-15-2018 - accuses me of vandalizing the article
• 11-16-2018 - calls editors "dog people pretenders"
• 11-15-2018 - argues about proper move of article name to lower case by SMcCandlish

The Merger discussion

• Talk:Staffordshire Bull Terrier#Merger discussion - the only "no merger" is by IQ125

As a result of this editor's inability to recognize RS, AGF and respect consensus, I cannot see any other remedy short of a t-ban from terrier articles broadly construed that will resolve their disruptive behavior, allow the proposed merger to take place without incident, and remain in place. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 14:17, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Question: on 26 October IQ125 reverted an edit differentiating the Irish bull terrier from the Staffordshire bull terrier, saying they're "the same dog" (edit summary, [128]). On 12 November they're the only editor opposing merging the two articles, because Irish bull terrier is "a separate breed" ([129]). Is this trolling? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:29, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• support (edit conflict) TBan per nom. I took part in the merge discussion, and have followed both it and the article since. Although of course their vote to merge or otherwise is entirely their own business and not disruptive, their continued behaviour in the article—diffs again per nom—is wholly disruptive.
  I also suggest a corollary that, should they attempt to move the article back unilaterally after the close (I'm rather assuming the result there, admittedly), an immediate WP:IDHT block will be enforced, per this and without further community discussion. ——SerialNumber54129 14:31, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• No: The only one being disruptive is User: Atsme. As you can see from the detail above, he seems to have far to much time on his hands and suffers from a bad case of compulsive obsessive disorder. It seems Atsme and another editor have taken it upon themselves to rewrite the Irish Bull Terrier article. They are deleting cited information from the article. I posted on the articles talk page to stop doing that amongst other comments to work with them rather than reverting the article. User:Atsme and the other editor do not want to work together cordially and build a better article. Some of the information they are both posting in the article is bogus. Atsme knows nothing about the dog breed Irish Bull Terrier and should not be editing unless he can provide a citation for anything he is adding. Atsme is edit warring and practicing article ownership, I object to that [Emphasis Added] Thank you. IQ125 (talk) 15:29, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I haven't looked over all of this but just saw this last response in my watchlist. IQ125, are you sure that you want to state that the person that you are having a disagreement with "seems to have far to much time on his hands and suffers from a bad case of compulsive obsessive disorder"? You should rethink that.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) @IQ125: speculating on an editor's mental health in this manner is a personal attack. Please retract your comment immediately. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:46, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support TB and corollary per Atsme and SN54129. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:42, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support TBan, in order to halt obvious disruption, edit-warring, and personal attacks. I have a hunch this will probably not be the last sanction this editor will receive, given that they immediately remove every single message, notice, or warning from their talkpage: [130]. -- Softlavender (talk) 15:45, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from dogs terriers, dog fighting, and breed-specific legislation, broadly construed and one-way ban from interaction with Atsme, per diffs provided, the apparent trolling over whether or not the two breeds mentioned here are the same breed, per conduct in this thread, and because this behaviour does not appear to be limited to articles on terriers (e.g. [131]) and extends at least to breed-specific legislation and dog fighting (the topics, not necessarily those specific articles). Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:51, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Note: refined suggested scope of topic ban. On review those do seem to be the specific disrupted topics. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:07, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support T-ban ("no-gaming" extended versions by Ivanvector and Cavalryman V31 – maybe just make it dogs in general) and corollary (by SerialNumber54129). I-ban may be overkill, unless some kind of personal harassment develops. Frankly, any time someone shows up in ANI and starts making insulting accusations about other people's mental health as if that that's any kind of response to the issues raised about their behavior, they should just be indeffed on the spot (though not without a close, on the merits, of the ANI and its evidence, since indefs are often not permanent). I went to great lengths to bring the new-seeming editors at that page up to speed and into the fold on how to participate without ending up at ANI or having their work reverted, and apparently not a word of it was absorbed. If anything, the behavior has markedly worsened, turning to excessively clumsy mass-revert editwarring against multiple editors, and uncivil rants that recycle IQ125's pet [pun intended] theories that don't have reliable sources. There's a WP:CIR problem here, and I wouldn't consider an indef off the table, even aside from insults used above; I'm skeptical this person has the temperament or communications, writing, and research skills to contribute constructively at a rate that outpaces the disruption they cause. I also note that the sources added by this person appear to be self-published (either directly or through a vanity press), so it's not just an attitude thing but a core content policies issue. The only good things that're going to come out of this are that we now know the article in question isn't encyclopedic and needs to be merged to the extent any of it's salvageable; and the tutorial material I wrote for Dr Nobody and IQ125 is being used as the basis for a new "how to write about breeds on Wikipedia" essay I'm almost done with.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:42, 16 November 2018 (UTC); revised 21:51, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• Question For how long would this topic ban be in place? Jacona (talk) 18:19, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• Huh? Isn't this the second issue we've had with this same article? Is this in any way related to the issue with User:Dr Nobody? I swear this is related. Why is this suddenly a problem space? --Tarage (talk) 19:01, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

  

  Evil, dangerous things lurk in the shadows.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:08, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

  Tarage yes, and since DrNobody is a relatively new editor, I volunteered to mentor them. I initially picked Irish bull terrier as a teaching aid  Self-whale... for when a trout just isn't enough...little did I know what was lurking in the shadows. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 21:14, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

  Yeah, even I got IQ125 and Dr Nobody confused for a moment. I've re-checked what I've written above to make sure it pertains exactly to IQ125 (e.g. the revert-warring, etc.).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:51, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support topic ban per Ivanvector but also all of the Bulldog breeds. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 19:31, 16 November 2018 (UTC). Amended, Cavalryman V31 (talk) 02:14, 17 November 2018 (UTC).

• I don't know why we would bother with a tban. I have no involvement whatsoever in this topic area, but every time I've encountered IQ125 they were edit warring, owning an article, refusing to communicate, making revenge edits, or generally refusing to get the point. Our main topic area overlap is chess. e.g. this ANI thread from February 2015, which involved edit warring to copy/paste merge a list that was closed as redirect, refusing to communicate, filing a bogus SPI about me, etc. There's also been stuff like repeatedly adding information about sexual orientation based on about.com, repeatedly removing copyright templates from the Nazi architecture page, edit warring to repeatedly make inaccurate copyright claims in relation to a nonfree image used in these two templates, then when I fixed the NFCC for use in an article (not the templates), they uploaded an exact copy (the templates were kept because the image was deleted)... so dogs, chess, musicians, architecture... not sure what would be accomplished with a topic ban on one. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:06, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

  Although I withdrew the specific proposal below once I was shown that the assumptions it was based on were not correct, I stillbelieve that IG125's behavior regarding their lack of response to comments on their talk page, and their immediate deletion of those comments, is dismissive and contempuous of the community and therefore warrant a block, although not the indef block I originally proposed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:12, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support topic ban and based on what Rhododendrites says above, a site ban may also be necessary. We do not need promotional articles about dog pseudo-breeds, and we do not need the contributions of an editor who uses unreliable sources and edits against consensus. Disclosure: My wife and I own a purebred terrier. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:24, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

  I'll prepare your scarlet COI patch. ;) Snow ^{let's rap} 00:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

  But pick a different color; dogs don't see red.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:36, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support TBAN, though I would additionally support a block. The general tendentiousness is pretty obvious here, and the resort to PAs (at ANI no less) demonstrate that this user, despite their tenure here, either has not made the effort to familiarize themselves with our basic conduct standards or just disregards them out of hand. That's an issue that goes beyond the WP:OR/inadequate sourcing/edit warring concerns which may or may not be forestalled by a topic ban. Clearly there is support only for the TBAN as the most targeted option at this time, and parallel sanctions are rarely applied regardless, but I am attempting to disentangle the two separate problematic patterns of behaviour so that it is made clear for IQ125 that both need to change and a TBAN will not isolate them from being back here in short order to face the consequences of PAs/harassment, if they should occur in other areas. Snow ^{let's rap} 00:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Close please

Will an uninvolved admin please wrap this up? IQ125 has not edited since being asked a week ago to retract their personal attack above, except to blank their talk page twice, and the thread is attracting silliness. (I welcome the silliness, but let's move on) Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 11:32, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Ivanvector, it may never happen which may explain why the silliness continues. ^{A wait for it moment with the sound of drumming fingers on the desk} 😳 ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 22:54, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Additional proposal

Withdrawn by proposer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:14, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

As far as I can tell from examining their talk page, IQ125 has never responded to any comment, question or warning left on their talk page. Almost every edit they have made to their talk page has been to delete those comments, etc. [132]. This is a blatant violation of WP:Communication is required, and in and of itself is worthy of an indef block until the editor positively confirms that they will communicate with other editors when they bring their concerns to them, which should be a condition of their unblock. They have been here for over five years, long enough to know that their behavior is unacceptable (since they delete every comment shortly after it's posted, and there is no archive, it's practically impossible to tell if someone has specifically warned him about this without reading every contribution to their talk page}. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:39, 16 November 2018 (UTC) Support as proposer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:41, 16 November 2018 (UTC) Oppose - blanking comments from one's talk page is explicitly permitted per WP:BLANKING. This conduct is not sanctionable. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:47, 16 November 2018 (UTC) Sorry, IV, unusually for you, you missed the point entirely. It's not the blanking which is problematic, but the lack of discussion. Editors who refuse to talk to other editors get indef blocked all the time, since it's impossible to have a collaborative project with someone who won't collaborate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beyond My Ken (talk • contribs) 10:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC) In this case, the editor does talk to others; just not on his own talkpage: [133]. He's not the most civil or rational or prolific of communicators, but communication has not been 100% absent, which is usually the only reason we give someone a wake-up or indef block. Softlavender (talk) 16:03, 16 November 2018 (UTC) OK, thanks for pointing that out. In the face of that, I'll withdraw the proposal. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:12, 16 November 2018 (UTC) (edit conflict × 3) I appreciate the clarification, and I did understand the point you were trying to make. We do often sanction editors who never respond to anything ever, but that's not the case with IQ125. They're very obviously participating in discussions, often problematically, but that is the opposite of never communicating. I realize that constantly blanking a talk page makes it difficult to know if the user has been warned about particular things in the past (not impossible) but my point is they're allowed to do that specific thing. All it really means is they have no basis for being upset when they're repeatedly warned about the same things over and over. Side note: I don't know why SineBot thought you didn't sign your edit. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:05, 16 November 2018 (UTC) It was SignBot. I mucked up the sig and used xsign to replace it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:13, 16 November 2018 (UTC) (edit conflict) Oppose It isn't true that he never communicates, I have had talk page discussions with him on chess-related articles. We should only indef editors for WP:CIR if they have never made any edits to any talk page, ever.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:11, 16 November 2018 (UTC) I've withdrawn it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:18, 16 November 2018 (UTC) I have to strongly agree with BMK's analysis with regard to the difference between blanking and communicating, and not communicating (whether blanking or not). Blanking stuff off your page is permissible, but being utterly unresponsive to other editors is not. If we were to end up wikilawyering ourselves into the corner that it did become permissible just to support the ability to nuke things off one's talk page without ever any response to anyone no matter what, then obviously we should go to the talk page guidelines and revise WP:BLANKING to actually be workable (something we arguably should have done a long time ago, given that a radically high percentage of people who behave that way in user talk end up at ANI for other and legit reasons and that a high proportion of people who end up here for other and legit reasons also engage in that behavior; there's a two-way and very strong correlation). The consensus that editors must be competent and a collaborative participants rather than dead-silence, I-can't-hear-you meatbots in order to continue editing here is much stronger than any alleged consensus for the idea that it is utterly impossible for the community to impose any sort of user-talk behavior restrictions. That said, I would think that this ANI subject is in enough hot water as it is, we don't really need to address this "sub-complaint" at this time. And he has been at least a little communicative (though not very constructively) on some other pages. The entire thing might be better as a WP:VPPOL discussion about adjusting WP:BLANKING and maybe some other parts about that overall page to match actual community norms, about a decade overdue.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:20, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

• I'm happy to see that no one in this thread is exhibiting BITEY behavior. EEng 01:19, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Yep, BITEY can be a bit terrier-fying. Everyone here is having a tail-waggin good time. 🐶 ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 01:30, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

You'd prefer we not be clear about the inappropriateness of PAs? I'd certainly contemplate a short-term block in place of the TBAN, but when someone responds to a complaint by commenting on the mental health of their "opposition", its clear that they are not understanding the degree of civility that is expected of them here. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:29, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Punning around, Snow Rise,...of the kind - to relieve some of the tension about the pit bull terrier dog topic. I hope an admin closes the discussion soon. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 04:31, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Oh! Errr--yeah, I totally got that! Snow ^{let's rap} 15:28, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

😅 🍻 ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 21:12, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Additional super srs rly gaiz proposal

Is EEng not an Enophile? – BMK

I propose @EEng: be topic-banned from ANI for not bringing the above adorable cat picture here first and forcing poor SMcCandlish to pull their weight. --Tarage (talk) 19:14, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

He's at 2NPs - give him 1 more chance. I had to pull his weight yesterday when he tripped over it's its...or maybe it was its it's. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 04:43, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Wasn't it "It's-It"?[134] Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:35, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

This is my reward for raising expectations. EEng 23:02, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

What, you expect a reward for working here in the vineyards? ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:17, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not about wining. EEng 23:42, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Give yourself a real reward. Put your favorite beverage in a glass and raise it instead. 🥂 ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 02:40, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Continued incivility and bad-faith accusations by Walter Görlitz toward me at article content discussions

I don't remember how far back this goes exactly, but Spike Wilbury can attest to Walter's incivility toward me as far back as September: "Brandishing topic bans and WP:NOTHERE as conflict resolution tools is absurdly aggressive. Feel free to comment on the topic here but further comments on Dan56 or other editors is likely to result in a block to prevent further disruption."

• He again suggested the threat of a topic ban this month, after I contested his formal closure of an RfC that had expired and that he had been involved in; my ANI complaint challenging the closure concluded the closure was inappropriate.

• Yesterday, he reverted without explanation an extensive addition I had made to an article and immediately filed an ANI complaint against me, complaining my edits were performed without prior discussion and "requesting a topic ban for Dan from this album article at the very least and possibly from the topic of U2 or possibly music in general."

• His overall inability to communicate without being dismissive, snarky, or rude is toxic; this discourages me from discussing any edit he protests without encountering some hostility from him, forcing me to open RfCs for my changes to get a fair assessment on the merits, especially in the most recent case when he is the only editor challenging them.

• Today, he has followed me again to the recent RfC at the same article to post embarrassing commentary; in response to Beyond My Ken's question directed at me, asking why I chose to open an RfC rather than start a regular discussion at the talk page; Walter responded to it himself, brandishing another bad-faith accusation: "Because, you came straight here and edited the article again after the last time you were told wasn't a problem, just to make the point that there were two Rolling Stone reviews. You wanted to make it clear to everyone and the rest was just whipped cream on the bullshit you've been spotting for a month".

Can someone sit him down, talk some sense into him? It is one thing to be overly protective of articles one has a personal stake in. But he is creating a toxic, offensive environment, making it embarrassing to even respond to the most recent remarks. Dan56 (talk) 10:37, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: This thread seems to be related to the now-closed thread above: Dan56 won't take "you're wrong" for an answer (permalink). It would appear that Walter Görlitz is unable to be objective or neutral with or concerning Dan56, and if he is unable to discuss content without mentioning editors, he will likely end up with a one-way IBan towards Dan56. That said, both Dan56 and Walter Görlitz need to leave specific and detailed edit summaries for every edit, not just when they feel like it. -- Softlavender (talk) 11:03, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• As I commented on the RfC, Dan56's opening of the RfC without first making an attempt at discussion seems like a very pretty aggressive thing to do, so I'm not sure that WG's response to it was completely unwarranted. It looks to me that Dan56 does not come here with clean hands. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:34, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• It is clear that these two users are more interested in hauling each other to ANI rather than discuss on the talk to generate WP:CONSENSUS, if things continue like this, Topic ban / IBAN will have to be proposed. --DBigXrayᗙ 07:50, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
  • It is demeaning to have to respond to an editor who can accuse you of illiteracy for failing to agree with him: "You need to learn to read."; just recently, in reference to you^, D. Dan56 (talk) 10:05, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

    accuse you of illiteracy – I always carry a copy of my parents' marriage certificate in case anyone tries that on me. EEng 12:05, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

    • By engaging in such personal attacks on me, Walter Görlitz is only confirming that the thread against his appalling behaviour is justified. He is digging his own grave with such acts. --DBigXrayᗙ 13:35, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

      It's unnecessarily pointed wording, but his thrust was that you were straw manning his argument, which is frustrating. It's not uncivil to point out when someone's exhibiting a "reading comprehension difficulty" moment (or pretending to in order to mischaracterize someone's OP). While the choice of words was poor, and unlikely to be taken kindly, that's all Walter is doing there. It is not credible that he literally believes you can't read, otherwise it would not be possible for you to follow the discussion or write on Wikipedia. That is, no one is going to buy that he's actually accusing you of illiteracy. Walter just needs to absorb the advice at WP:HOTHEADS and moderate his tone.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:22, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

      Surely not literal illiteracy! EEng 03:39, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Topic ban both editors from the article and interaction ban them from each other - this is the third discussion on this page (Dan56 and RfC closing, Dan56 won't take "you're wrong" for an answer, this thread) plus more on other pages (e.g [135]) about this dispute, which at its core is just these two editors insisting on disrupting each other's work. It's just wasting time on an unresolvable personality conflict at this point. Get them out of the way and let others work on the article. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:11, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
  • What work of his have I disrupted? It has exclusively been my edits challenged/reverted by Walter at Boy (album) recently. What work of his anywhere else have I disrupted? Dan56 (talk) 20:01, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• TB & IB - Per Ivanvector, who hit the nail squarley on the head. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:54, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• Ivanvector's IB would be reasonable (this really is clearly a personality dispute), and maybe a short-term TB. I don't really see enough evidence for a TB for either party at this point. And we need to keep in mind that the average editor treats a TB like a public flogging; some otherwise-productive editors quit over one if it's indefinite or lengthy. Three months max, I would say, but only if there's sufficient evidence that their conflict is topically limited, and it rises to TB level, and we don't think an IB would resolve the problem (don't use two sanctions when one will do). If we're certain there's a failure "to communicate without being dismissive, snarky, or rude" and it's not limited to this topical context, then it may not be a t-ban matter, though many editors learn from a short block or even a warning to stop doing that sort of thing, lest it lead to stringent sanctions. Give people the benefit of the doubt that they can do so.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:22, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• I've suggested both because the article is clearly suffering from their personality conflict, and should be given a chance to recover. I don't want this to turn into a situation of both editors warring over who is allowed to edit because the other is ibanned. I just wrote somewhere else that I don't really care for time-limited bans (my opinion is that the banned editor should actively convince others that the ban is no longer necessary, instead of it just expiring with no action on their part) but I don't have a strong opinion about the matter in this case. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:55, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
  • If anything, my consolidation of critical information in the article has allowed for this addition of new content by Y2kcrazyjoker4. So, how exactly has the article "clearly suffered"? Dan56 (talk) 20:11, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Whatever is done to Walter, should be done to Dan as well, as he exhibits all the same traits (OWN, IDHT, etc) that he’s accusing Walter of. Both are prolific, good editors in the music area that don’t play well with others in disputes. I’d prefer neither get restrictions, but it doesn’t appear either know how to disengage when they encounter each other, so if this is the only way, so be it. Sergecross73 msg me 19:31, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm accusing him of an enduring pattern of incivility and assumptions of bad faith in interactions with me; hence the title of this thread. Anyway, show proof; open a thread here. Don't just make a lazy generalization when you comment on my character. Dan56 (talk) 20:01, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
    • Im guessing you’re unfamiliar with WP:BOOMERANG, as there’s no need to open up another discussion just for you. If absolutely necessary, I’m sure it wouldn’t take much to dig up stances of incivility of yours as well, but judging by the current trajectory of the discussion, the community is already well aware of, and tired of, both of your disruptive bickering with one another. You’re digging your own grave here. I called you both good editors that I’d wish not need to have any action taken upon. And you still decided to badger me. I take it back. Restrictions are necessary. Sergecross73 msg me 23:25, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
      • I'm not badgering you; I have a right to respond to judgments on my character at a noticeboard. And... Dig them up. Find an instance of incivility in my interactions with Walter. Please. Dan56 (talk) 23:35, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
        • Virtually every response you make to every editor involved in this RFC is uncivil. You accuse people of being fanatics, petty, ignorance, etc. And the fact that you likely won’t recognize this as problematic is potentially worse. Sergecross73 msg me 23:59, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
          • Lie I never called anyone a fanatic or ignorant; I called Walter petty because he was being, as he admitted, "pedantic". Dan56 (talk) 00:07, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
• TB & IB per Beyond My Ken and SMcCandlish - Both are getting on each others nerves and both seem unable to steer clear of each other, Topic and interaction ban the both of them = Problem solved. –Davey2010^Talk 20:07, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Okay: On second thought, I am fine with this. I have nothing further to add to Boy (album), and if Walter cannot be civil, I don't want to ever communicate with him in any way. Ever. Again. I have never (knowingly) followed him/his work, and would prefer he avoid me. Dan56 (talk) 20:17, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I didn't suggest a TB; I was critical of the idea unless certain conditions are clearly met, and it was short term.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:56, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I would accept with both, but would rather not remove the article from my watchlist since I primarily have it there because it's an old album that has been prone to unconstructive edits in the past. There is also the underlying issue of Dan56's use of RfCs as a substitute for discussion. I'm not sure that will be addressed with a TB or IB. If you've seen any of his RfCs, he starts by claiming that we're making votes, which is not the case, and interacts only with those who disagree with his position. Is it reasonable to discuss that or am I making too much out of that? Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:12, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

It's not a substitute for discussion. It's a last resort when you demonstrate an inability to discuss content in a civil manner; and when you make your position clear and not subject to change or compromise in your edit summaries, giving authoritative instruction to not revise against your preference: [136], [137]; along with clear instruction to leave you alone and not try to discuss the content in question with you: remember this? ("Do not ping me again") You are not making too much of anything; you are misrepresenting things altogether. Dan56 (talk) 22:38, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

For something specific at the article level, yes. RfCs are also used more broadly to solicit wider editorial input on a question that would affect many articles. I'm sure you know that, but we shouldn't over-generalize. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:58, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• TB & IB - per my comments and the other proposers above. Sergecross73 msg me 23:26, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I already said I agree to this; be more mindful of what is discussed. Dan56 (talk) 00:04, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
    • I’m well aware. I’m interested in making sure that there’s a consensus to enforce it whether you agree to it or not. People flake out on self-imposed stuff all the time. Sergecross73 msg me 00:08, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
      • I don't think anyone would flake out of deliberately avoiding someone who has been insufferably obnoxious and dismissive toward them. Dan56 (talk) 00:17, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
        • If your willpower to stay away from him were enough, we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now. This whole conversation wouldn’t exist. Sergecross73 msg me 00:21, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
          • I did not confront him or choose to meet him; we encountered each other by happenstance at the article in question (ended up being one he had personal/past investment in), and a previous RfC; I should be able to promote my changes at an article if I feel there is merit to them--and there was, as the current revision of the article stands to show--without being demeaned or insulted. This discussion should exist; so he adheres to the ban. And hopefully learns. Even if it is somewhat at my expense. Dan56 (talk) 00:40, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
            • So just to be clear, you think this entirely my fault and you accept no responsibility for your own behaviour. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:51, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• If you two folks think that WP:IBAN will be good for you guys. I would suggest you to take a hard look again at the practical aspects of an IBAN. It is clear that you two edit in the Music topic area. It will not be easy to edit while constantly making sure that your edit is not undoing or changing the other editors edit. Sooner or later someone is going to make a careless mistake and end up being blocked for violation of IBAN. Think about it. But if you guys really believe that the matter has reached a point that there is no better option than IBAN then so be it.--DBigXrayᗙ 05:28, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• RE: Walter. I take responsibility for letting your toxic incivility get to me. That being said, I'd rather not deal with you again. And as I've already said before: I have contributed all I have cared to at Boy. Dan56 (talk) 06:07, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Good point DBigXray. This may not be a good solution. Do you have any suggestions? Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:24, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• There is no winner in an IBAN, both sides will suffer. My following comments are addressed to both of you. Just give up the thoughts of trying to score points over each other on a talk page discussion. Disengage from the article for a while. If ever you come across again, start a CIVIL discussion with a fresh mindset, try not to let the past disagreement influence the future discussions. Follow WP:DR route instead of taking the bloody road to ANI. Both of you are experienced editors, it will be a loss for the project if either of you is topic banned. The last thread was closed and this new thread got opened the very next day, (the lack of resolve to peacefully settle is clearly visible), so sanctions are almost certain, if you continue testing the patience of ANI. Several folks above have already supported IBAN + TBAN. The two of you should jointly agree to give up this battle of ego and make a decisive statement to disengage and resolve your differences through a discussion. Come up with some ideas/restrictions that you believe can resolve the differences between the two of you. If you can convince the community that the matters can still be resolved and an IBAN isn't needed as yet then the community "may" decide to give you another chance depending upon how convincing your statements are. --DBigXrayᗙ 07:57, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• On the talk page at the article in question, I have explained my reasoning more clearly but am still curious why we went straight to RfC. You're right that IB is probably overkill (at least on my part). Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Walter Görlitz, Dan56 is the right person to answer. To me it seems Dan56 felt that further talk page discussion will be a waste of time. Sour discussions in past may also have contributed to that. It is hard to put the blame for the current situation on only one of you when the behavior of both is subpar. That said, this issue so far isn't as big. Although it seems to have good potential to enlarge and spill over to other music articles, if preventive actions or a drastic change on how you engage with each other is not made. --DBigXrayᗙ 19:30, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Understood. I overreacted and came here rather than talking. He overreacted and went straight to an RfC. If I had simply looked at other "classic" albums (which I point to on the article's talk page, and explain where I had looked initially, and explained that two review sections is not in the MoS for albums) I would have seen that Dan56 was neither avoiding the consensus reached in the previous RfC (which was my initial concern) nor setting a precedent in creating two review sections. If Dan56 had pointed to these precedents on the talk page rather than going to RfC, I would likely have argued against it, but probably would have self-reverted while discussing. Again, I recognize that I am a contributor and agree that less "nuclear" options should be sought first. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:36, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Walter Görlitz fair Enough. Dan56 I see that you have already replied above that you will not "deal with Walter" or "contribute to this article". but we are still concerned about the other music articles, since you two edit in Music area, it is safe to assume a future interaction will again happen, (if so, there is a high probability that we may see another ANI thread). Please see the comments above and let us know what you think of it and if you have anything more to add here. --DBigXrayᗙ 19:53, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Sounds about right. I don't have more to add. Dan56 (talk) 11:33, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Comment Based on the discussion above, both editors have accepted the responsibility. There is willingness from both parties to improve their conduct with respect to each other and avoid further clashes. Several AN/ANi threads were opened recently but they all are part of 1 dispute. I believe we should give them a chance to edit without IBAN and postpone the more drastic measures for the next time. Both editors should note that any further lack of good faith among each other and subsequent hauling of the other editor to ANI may lead to IBANs. --DBigXrayᗙ 13:38, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Leaving it at that is just postponing the inevitable. We’ll be back here in a month or two listening to their bickering and taking cheap shots at each other (and in Dan’s case, anyone who doubts him in the slightest.) Sergecross73 msg me 20:30, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

User:Sergecross73 the primary objective of this discussion is to find out a way to prevent the bickering (By IBAN or whatever) and not to just BAN/block. This dispute after all is a content dispute and continued by ego and inability to engage in fruitful discussion. Correct me if I am wrong but, this is the only 1 incident of dispute (related to star ratings) between them. Putting an IBAN for 1 incident appears overkill to me. Specially after both parties have agreed to disengage, we should give them a chance. None of the two have edited the disputed article since this discussion started, so I take it as a good sign. I know I am being optimist here. Time will tell if they can keep their word but I feel IBAN is harsh now. Both of them know that "a new ANI thread and subsequent IBAN" is only a click away.--DBigXrayᗙ 05:36, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I mean, the primary objective is keeping this issue from recurring. I just feel it’s a bit naive to believe they’re going to take care of it of their own accord at this point. Sergecross73 msg me 01:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

WP:CIVILITY & WP:AGF by User:DePiep

I wasn't going to file this until I saw that DePiep was placed on WP:PROBATION 2018-05-29. In the probation it states DePiep is placed indefinitely under an editing restriction, in which he is subject to immediate sanction (including blocks) if he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, or personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith. This restriction may be appealed in not less than six months from the enactment of these sanctions.

This diff to me clearly violates both WP:CIVILITY & WP:AGF. As does this. Was particularly disappointing given that I had just posted on their page asking for how I could help with a project they were working on (see this diff. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 02:52, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@Euryalus and Beeblebrox: FYI. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 03:00, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• I am willing to give DePiep a chance to explain them-self, if they can. But this looks pretty straight forward and a clear violation of the terms of their probation. Worse their block log is longer than my arm and most of the blocks were for similar behavior. I am strongly inclined to support an indefinite block. The linked diffs are grossly uncivil and flatly unacceptable. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:08, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) The first diff there is DePiep telling someone asking what looks to me like a good-faith offer to help to "fuck off", and we might reasonably debate whether or not that's a personal attack but I, an administrator, judge it to be uncivil. The second diff is a clear assumption of bad faith. I have blocked DePiep for 2 weeks. Given the exhaustive previous discussion and their enormous block log all pretty much over the same sort of behaviour, this seems like it would be a good time to discuss whether this person should edit Wikipedia at all. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 03:12, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Since we started with two weeks, I'd support bumping their block to 3 months with a clear understanding that it's the last block they are going to get that will have an expiration date. This needs to stop. And if they are unable/unwilling to treat their fellow editors civilly, then it's time for them to find another hobby. I say that with some regret. Clearly this is a productive editor. But there are limits to what the community should be expected to put up with, and we passed that point a while ago. If there is a consensus for indeffing them now, I won't object. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:15, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
    • @Ad Orientem and Ivanvector: I think another thing that needs to be considered is just how many times DePiep has violated their probation and not been reported. As I mentioned, I almost didn't file this complaint at all. I wonder how many other people have had issues? Just a quick glance at the recent contributions by DePiep and I found: this thread and this edit. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 04:40, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Unfortunately DePiep is easily trolled. Please be satisfied with having had him blocked for two weeks without wanting to punish your opponent further. Yes, DePiep should be like the majority here and only bother people in a civil manner, but we're not all the same. Move on. Johnuniq (talk) 07:02, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@Johnuniq, Ad Orientem, Ivanvector, and Alex Shih: I don't understand how this was closed so quickly? Given the EXTENSIVE block history for this user and the fact that they were on WP:PROBATION I don't understand how only a 2 week ban is being applied? Their last ban was for 3 months. The latest ban should be AT LEAST that long. They clearly aren't getting the message. How many chances are they going to get? At the very least this warrants a further discussion. I think closing this discussion so quickly is a mistake and would ask another NEUTRAL admin to reconsider. Obviously I'm biased here since I filed the initial report. I am simply asking for a lengthier discussion before this is closed. If the consensus is that 2 weeks is enough then so be it, but given the lengthy and extensive history of this user, I think this more than warrants a longer discussion. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 18:06, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• I am reverting Alex Shih's good faith close. I am not seeing a consensus supporting the two week block and I think further discussion is warranted. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:13, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• Per WP:ROPE, two weeks is sufficient here. If it were longer, I'd have supported that too. If it were shorter, I'd have supported that too. A block was needed, if he returns in two weeks and never again tells someone to "fuck off", then the block has served its purpose. If he does again behave incivilly, we can always block him again for longer. Admin discretion over block length is perfectly within reason here, and I see no reason to extend the block to a longer expiration date. If an actual site ban (or indefinite block) is warranted, then perhaps that is a discussion for a separate thread, but any expiring block of sufficient length will do in a case like this. --Jayron32 18:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Yeah but Ivanvector, the blocking admin, also said "this seems like it would be a good time to discuss whether this person should edit Wikipedia at all".--Bbb23 (talk) 18:29, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Then start a new thread asking for a formal site ban. I suspect it wouldn't take all that long to find consensus for one. --Jayron32 18:37, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) @Jayron32 and Ad Orientem: I'm all for WP:ROPE and if this were the first, second or even 3rd time the user had been blocked for this I would say 2 weeks is fine... But this is the ELEVENTH block the user has received. Additionally, they were on WP:PROBATION where they promised to stop this sort of behavior and didn't. According to WP:ROPE it should not be used:

• If a user has already been blocked numerous times for the same behavior, they've already gotten all the rope they need; the hangman is just asleep at the lever
• And If the user was justifiably blocked but is not giving any indication that they even feel they did anything wrong See this diff where the user essentially says they should be given leeway because my actions warranted their response.

• I am all for giving people chances to correct their mistakes. We ALL make them. But for their 11th time to be such a tiny slap on the wrist... --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 18:32, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Look, in my opinion there are only two kinds of blocks: expiring ones, and indefinite ones. If we set it to autoexpire at a certain date in the future, it is because we expect the person to change their behavior when the block expires. Two weeks, two months, whatever, an expiring block means "When this runs out, we have full expectation the problems will cease". If we DON'T expect the person to improve their behavior, then what is the point of letting their block expire? If you think that a site ban is needed instead of a limited term block, start a new thread asking for a site ban. I suspect you would get significant support for one. However, unless and until we do that, any expiring block of any sufficiently long length has the same effect. --Jayron32 18:35, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• That really is the crux. Do I think this pattern of behavior will cease when the block expires? In all honesty, I do not. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:43, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• I'm with Ad Orientem. I also want to note that while I am the one who filed this particular complaint, until yesterday, I had zero issues with DePiep. I actually really valued their input on a number of things. I just don't want anyone to think this is some long standing grudge on my part. Looking at their track record though... 11 blocks all for the same thing? And this time when they were blocked their first statement was to try to justify their actions by essentially saying they were provoked. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 19:03, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support 5 month block - I've been pondering between 5 months and indef for some time now,

On one hand their block log is ridiculous and them making PAs despite being on a topicban makes me want to support indef,

On the other hand under the topicban this has been their first offense (and I feel it would be harsh to immediately indef them when others here have been blocked more than 7 times and still edit here)

So for now I support extending to 5 months in order for them to clear their head and gain some perspective, Anymore violations should result in indef. –Davey2010^Talk 19:10, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• I just don't feel 2 weeks will achieve anything whereas a 5 month block would (or should) have more of an impact if that makes sense, –Davey2010^Talk 19:14, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. DePiep is generally productive, but that is a long b-log, and the transgression of the probation was pretty stark. A nice long wikibreak seems to be in order.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:26, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support 5 months - @Davey2010: I would support a 5 month ban with the caveat that next time there is a block of any kind, it is indef. I'm not saying "next time someone complains", I'm saying next time that an admin decides that the actions require a block of any kind, that needs to be it. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 19:28, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• As blocking admin, I felt that DePiep's overreaction to Zackmann08's query was sanctionable only in the context of their topic ban, otherwise I would have just said "hey, knock it off and be polite". Yet, just a little bit less than six months ago they were banned specifically from these behaviours, which included language indicating they should be blocked immediately if they violated those conditions, and so in my view a block was warranted. Since this was fairly mild and apparently the first instance of violating that ban, I felt that two weeks was sufficient. I blocked while Ad Orientem was writing their "give them a chance to explain" response above: I hadn't seen it before I blocked. As for my comment about discussing whether DePiep should edit at all, I was referring to this being part of a long-term pattern which warranted a topic ban in the first place. Personally, after the fact, I think that one slip in nearly six months is probably not ban-worthy, but at the same time it indicates their behaviour isn't really improving. Afterwards I saw Johnuniq's wise comment about trolling, and thought it best to leave this as is unless others really wanted to talk about it. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:49, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

For the record, any admin should of course feel free to override my block with whatever is decided here. I do not need to be notified (I'll be following anyway) Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:10, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@Ivanvector and Johnuniq: point of clarification here... Was the trolling comment directed towards me? Lot going on here so I don't want to assume anything. That being said, if you feel that I did anything wrong in this matter, please do not hesitate to tell me so, either here in this thread or in a message on my talk page. If I was in the wrong at any point, I want to own that and learn from it. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 20:19, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@Zackmann08: I can't speak for Johnuniq but I interpreted his comment as a general comment, not suggesting that you were trolling DePiep. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:21, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support 5 month block per above with the stipulation that this is likely going to be their last block with an expiration date. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:53, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support a long block as a final warning - the only thing more impressive than the size of the log is that it shows a pattern of unchanging behavior that goes back nearly 10 (9.83) years. Even a final warning at this point I think is generous.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  21:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose We've just had an RfC on this. Against my views, at least, WP consensus has decided that this language is not uncivil. If that's the case, then we can hardly sanction DePiep for breaching it!

IMHE, DePiep has sometimes been abrasive to deal with, but never an editor I'd want to sanction like this. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:54, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Context is key. I don't see any civility nor AFG here nor here, as originally posted at the top.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  22:48, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@Andy Dingley: I'd like to echo what Tom.Reding said. As the RFC stated, context is key. This not just about the use of the words fuck off. That alone is not sanctionable. However, it indicates a lengthy history of behavior. Also, it just violates common sense. If you have been blocked 10 times already for lack of WP:CIVILITY and violating WP:AGF why on earth are you getting anywhere near that line? Whether or not you think fuck off is a violation of civility, surely we can all agree it is right on the line? But more importantly, the entire content of the interaction shows a lack of WP:AGF. For example, in this response, I had come to DePiep to ask how I could be helpful with a project. That was their response. This isn't about the use of those words. If you replace please fuck off with "please go away" or "piss off" it still lacks WP:CIVILITY and doesn't WP:AGF. Even if you completely remove that part from the response... I came to offer assistance their response was I don't think you are her to improve templates, to cooperate, or to improve wikipedia at all. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 22:58, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

That is pretty much the same detailed take I would have written and thankfully someone else did this time. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:03, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I can see why you're upset by such comments and certainly they're way off what we'd want to see (FYI - track his block log and ANI to see what he's said to me!). But IMHO, the length of block being discussed here need concrete disruption and damage, not just offence. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:02, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Procedurally, this is akin to an employee who has been written up for inappropriate behaviour and then doing it again. In most companies, that would usually be a termination offense. Were it not for that probation, then I'd probably agree with you --Blackmane (talk) 00:28, 20 November 2018 (UTC).

• As far as I can see, DePiep is concerned about attempts to delete templates based on a non-existent "single use" rule. This TfD and follow-up with the closing admin (MSGJ) at MSGJ's talk seem very reasonable. DePiep has maintained a lot of complex templates used by the chemistry wikiproject and appeared to react badly soon after Zackmann08 started a TfD process that may have deleted 122 such templates. Given the complex, high quality and policy-compliant material, I think the wikiproject maintaining the articles should manage how they operate. At any rate, DePiep appeared to melt down. A two-week block solves that problem and escalating law-n-order calls for higher sanctions are inappropriate. All kinds of people edit here. Some of them are highly concerned about the corner they maintain and react badly when passers-by want to turn everything upside down. The solution is to block DePiep for two weeks for every bad word. This is not Nannypedia where people's self esteem must be protected at all costs. Browsing User talk:Zackmann08 shows that others have raised concerns and Zackmann08's effort to totally eliminate their opponent is very inappropriate. Johnuniq (talk) 00:19, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
  • @Johnuniq: 1) I specifically asked DePiep for their input... I wanted an explanation from them and a discussion that is why I started a Templates for DISCUSSION. I have no problem with opposition. Your statement that I'm trying to eliminate my opponent is just a flat out lie, not to mention fails to WP:AGF. 2) You do realize that DePiep has had a meltdown at least 10 previous times now right? At what point do you think it is enough? --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 01:40, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Understood, I'm lying and failing to AGF. Further, the fact that DePiep's meltdown occurred during a disagreement with you is a complete coincidence and it is only with a heavy heart and sense of community welfare that you are advocating that DePiep's two-week block is insufficient. Let me repeat my earlier comment: DePiep should be like the majority here and only bother people in a civil manner, but we're not all the same. Move on. Johnuniq (talk) 04:06, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

My reading of this aligns closely to Johnuniq's. Two weeks for a first violation of the sanction is a fair response. The three month block was two years ago (August 2016). Chomping at the bit for harsher punishment is not going to invoke any AGF from me. Neither is the bludgeoning. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

One can reasonably argue for or against a longer block. But the suggestion that DePiep should get some kind of special consideration and be allowed to flout our guidelines is not acceptable. WP:CIVIL is not a suggestion and it does not apply only to some of us. Anyone who is unable or unwilling to abide by it needs to find another hobby. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:07, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't think special considerations are being suggested here; CIVIL by the letters is being violated everyday, and we have talked about in the past how it could be equally uncivil for someone to ask someone that's upset "please be civil". In DePiep's case, there's plenty of discussion in previous ANI to the point that I think we are simply in "report violation and block territory"; bringing out all of their past history again to me is just unnecessarily repetitive. Alex Shih (talk) 14:41, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Stumbling across this report I feel I should throw this encounter into the mix - Template talk:Infobox lighthouse#Template-protected edit request on 29 October 2018. What was a discussion about a prospective template edit very quickly became, in DePiep's mind, an attack on his technical abilities. If a block is to be imposed, it needs to be longer than the last, so Support block >3 months. Cabayi (talk) 10:03, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Did you post the right diff? I can't see anything warranting a block in that link. Johnuniq (talk) 10:16, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• What's sanctionable in that diff is DePiep's concern that Cabayi "distrusts [their] work" (I'm paraphrasing because I'm on mobile), a clear assumption of bad faith. The majority of users would escape such a statement with at worst a warning, but DePiep is not like the majority of users: they are banned (not "have been warned" but banned) from making statements like this. Procedurally their comment is the same as an editor topic-banned from gun control posting an edit about the NRA. I see it as an odd sanction but it is one the community agreed on to try to limit a disruptive user, and I'm not really evaluating the merits of the sanction when I block for what is clearly a violation of it. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 11:31, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

And the ban in this case includes a strongly worded advisory to block them "immediately" if violations occur. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:36, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, I am a simple person and would read DePiep's comment (from above) in a much kinder way. I'm not claiming DePiep's communication style is a model of clarity, quite the opposite, but I don't think it's reasonable to parse "showing a distrust in my work, while not being able to point out any errors" as sanctionable. I agree there is a problem but as in many of these cases I suspect our responses can go a bit overboard. Re the edit request, the mandatory copyright attribution should have been followed. Johnuniq (talk) 05:49, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• I think two weeks is sufficient, it's the first time the 'civility parole' has been breached (or, at least, reported here as having been breached) since it was initiated over a year ago, and De Piep is probably well aware the next block, if there is one, will be indefinite; dragging that out for a further 4 1/2 months seems punitive, not preventative. Fish+Karate 10:40, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
• I just want to say, a) god damn it and b) Johnuniq's comments above nailed it. DePiep is like a very expensive racecar that does one kind of thing really, REALLY well (and diligently) but it doesn't take much to make it go kablooey. User_talk:Zackmann08 please be more careful not to break things. I'm with the Fish - 2 weeks is plenty. And for god's sake User:De Piep please walk away from your keyboard when you feel a gasket blowing. Please self-manage better. Please. You are going to lose your editing privileges for good, and that would suck. Jytdog (talk) 04:12, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
  • @Jytdog: first of all, you pinged my talk page and didn't even link to DePiep correctly... But more importantly, I never broke anything? So what on earth are you talking about? --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 06:33, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
    • If you have to ask what I am talking about, you are not reading this thread and have a severe WP:IDHT problem. Everybody here has acknowledged that dePiep is way too explosive; editors who are familiar with his work understand that it is very valuable. I know that you weren't aware of what you walking into when you started thinking about the relevant infoboxes, but by now you should be aware. Please read Johnuniq's comments again. If you persist in not listening this is going to boomerang on you, now or eventually. Jytdog (talk) 19:21, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

• Strong support for an indef (or a longterm block at a bare minimum) This user has been blocked 11 times in their time with the project, and on all but two of those occasions, it was for harassment, personal attacks, and general disruption. Just five months ago, the community undertook a detailed examination here of the underlying inappropriate conduct, in which De Piep was advanced yet more WP:ROPE, but with a clear warning that this was the last of the patience the community was prepared to extend given the persistent abuse of other editors in flagrant defiance of the most basic application of our civility standards. There were some truly problematic comments discussed at that time (not the least of them the very troubling "Auschwitz" comments directed at Icewhiz), but we nevertheless attempted a solution that gave this editor a chance to self-correct. That we are back here this soon for multiple brightline violations is an indication of a basic competency deficit; this user is either incapable of exercising control over their impulse to make abusive comments during content disputes, or they have so little regard for our conduct standards and the express concerns of the community that they feel they cannot be bothered. Either way, enough is enough.

Personally, I grow truly weary of hearing, as seems to be the refrain in every other user conduct discussion involving civility of late, how great the user's contributions are "otherwise". Holy Mother of Not Seeing the Big Picture, that's not the point. The systemic damage done to the project and its editorial resources by allowing our conduct standards to be habitually ignored by the "right" editors dwarfs any benefit any one editor brings in; if this editor contributed 100,000 quality edits a year, I would still !vote to block based on the extensive and long-term pattern of inability to internalize this project's need for a respectful and collaborative environment. DePiep has been given every opportunity to pull up from this nose dive, and I for one regret my earlier support for adopting a "wait and see" approach in the last community discussion. As the block log and the associated ANI discussions illustrate, for the better part of a decade this user has been broadcasting who they are with their conduct. At what point do we choose to receive the message? Snow ^{let's rap} 20:08, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

@Snow Rise: thanks for the super in depth analysis. Also pinging @Icewhiz: in case they want to chime in. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 18:46, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Zack, I would be careful of doing that in the future; it looks a little like WP:canvassing when you ping someone to a discussion immediately after hearing a description of a previous dispute which would seem to suggest that they would come down on the issues here in a particular way. In this case, I would say that's unlikely to be the result: Icewhiz was (quite admirably in my book) pretty quick to accept DePiep's apology in that prior discussion--that was actually a big part of why I (and I suspect others) were convinced to go the WP:ROPE route in that discussion (by adopting an editing restriction rather than re-instating the indef), out of respect for Icewhiz's magnanimity.

Nevertheless, pulling in editors from previous conduct discussions is still likely to be interpreted by others as an effort to stack the deck and works against you in two ways: 1) it makes it look like any emerging consensus here for a sanction is really the result of aggregated sour grapes, and 2) fairly or not, it devalues the weight your own assertions will be granted. I do believe it was appropriate to mention those particular censured comments--they are very important context for understanding why DePiep was put under this particular editing restriction to begin with. But pinging old parties to the present discussion when it can appear that you are doing so expecting them to support your position is a bridge too far, imo. Snow ^{let's rap} 19:28, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

@Snow Rise: you are correct. Thanks for calling me on that. I've stricken (striked?) my comments and will refrain from pinging any other editors. FWIW I was not attempting to canvas, but that is not the point. I need to avoid any appearance of impropriety. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 21:00, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, thank you--that is precisely the emphasis I was hoping to impart; I personally believe you were not acting in bad faith and that under a strictly textualist reading of WP:CANVAS one in your position might argue that Icewhiz was someone who would want to be informed. But nevertheless, for the need to preserve faith in the integrity of the process and reduce acrimony in same, it's better to err on the side of of caution in such pings that a reasonable editor might have concerns about. I appreciate you taking my observation in the spirit it was intended. Snow ^{let's rap} 21:51, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

On a side note, as regards the (surprisingly more complex than one might think) topic of stricked/stricken, you might want to look at the work of cognitive psychologist and language researcher Steven Pinker, some of whose earlier work is focused upon the question of irregular verbs, as is one of his popular science books, Words and Rules, to a great extent. I also just recently happened upon this short which does an admirable job of trying to condense the subject down into a basic primer of the pragmatic angles to that question. Uh, but long story short, I think most people still go with "stricken" in their personal idiolect, but I could be mistaken about that. Snow ^{let's rap} 22:18, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. Hold your horses. All this dramah is about Template:Chembox Pharmacology and the proposal by User:Zackmann08 to rewrite everything from scratch. The said template is transcluded into [[138]] 778 pages. As noted at Template_talk:Chembox#Convert to Infobox (for realz this time), "anyone who has looked at this template knows it is a complicated one". Therefore rewriting from scratch will generate for sure a huge workload to check if everything got as planed in all the trancluding articles. In this context, a message that can be parsed as "I will take the lead, but, nevertheless, you are allowed to work harder" has been poorly received. And so on, and so on. This is really the right time to invoke the Holy Mother of Not Seeing the Big Picture. Pldx1 (talk) 20:08, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
  • @Pldx1: I'm not sure what my efforts to rewrite an outdated template have to do with a conversation on civility? As previously noted, I initially came to DePiep with an offer to assist them with their efforts to rewrite the template. Their response was to tell me to fuck off because they felt I was clearly not here to be constructive. So again, not sure what your point is? --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 21:00, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
    • This section is not a conversation about civility, but deals with an application against an alleged non-civility. Therefore, context matters. What could have triggered such an unfortunate event? For example, what was said just before the bad_word was issued? Disclaimer: I do not use the Chembox template and I do not propose myself for a thorough review of the political correctness of the code nor even of it's computer correctness. And so, I have nothing to add. Pldx1 (talk) 21:34, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
      • @Pldx1: so essentially you are saying I provoked them by offering to help? That makes no sense at all... --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 23:18, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support block OP's diff clearly shows DePiep violating their editing restriction. I would also support TBANning Pldx1 from ANI discussions for the above blatant trolling, and the ongoing trolling over multiple years, which was slow-motion enough that it's largely evaded notice, and trouting Zackmann08 for feeding the trolls. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:34, 23 November 2018 (UTC) (modified 02:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC))

• Block him. Sorry, but "All this dramah" is not about any Chembox template or such, or even "bad" language, but about the persistent, long-running incivility of this user. This probation was his opportunity to show improvement of behavior, and he avoided a block only because he agreed to these more stringent conditions. He violated those conditions, therefore "he is subject to immediate sanction (including blocks)". ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:09, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2012_April_3, Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2014_June_28, Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2016_October_30, Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2018_November_19 were closed as keep. Thus DePiep should have answered: let us sing Kumbaya together, see you in 2020. But requiring to enlarge the current 2 weeks block by Ivanvector seems over the top. Pldx1 (talk) 11:01, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Huh? The point of your comment is .. what? ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:36, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment something needed to be done, but I don't see clear evidence that additional action beyond the existing 2-week block is needed. I'm neutral on anything up to a total of a 2-month block, and oppose anything more. I do support extending the timeframe of appeal for the previous sanctions by 6 months. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:32, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Range block needed again for Malaysian nationality vandal

• Sporting Kansas City (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Siti Nurhaliza‎ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (nationality vandal by :a610, :3379, :c820, :a81b, and previously more ip in October)
• Disney Princess (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• List of Disney Princess firsts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Mulan (Disney character) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• List of Disney's Mulan characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• 2018 Sukma Games (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Fernando Muslera (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Faris Ramli (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Keylor Navas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Bryan Ruiz ‎ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• FC Augsburg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Shah Indrawan Ismail (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Fernando Muslera (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• 2017 Home United FC season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (nationality vandal)
• Sahil Suhaimi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Warriors FC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• 2016 Saint Louis FC season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Saint Louis FC U23 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Danny Phantom (character) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (name vandal)
• Hafizul Hakim (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (name vandal by 3379, d4a9 and others)
• Khairul Hafiz Jantan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (name vandal)
• Hafizh Syahrin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (name vandal by 3379 and 139f)
• Khairul Idham Pawi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (name vandal by 3379 and 139f)
• Syafiq Yusof (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (vandal by :3379, but as changing human name and from yes to no parameters)
• Johan As'ari (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (vandal by :3379, but as changing human name)
• and many many articles for vandalizing the nationality to hoax value
• 2405:3800:501:331E:59A8:3578:DBA4:3379 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active from 20 November, blocked 31 hours and active again on 21 November, blocked again for 1 week on the same day)
• ‎2405:3800:382:2cc2:d9bd:68bd:7dd9:c820 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 19 November)
• 2405:3800:200:C7AE:E849:AA1A:6C46:A81B (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 19 November)
• 2405:3800:402:7ff7:c113:bbdf:2bda:a610 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 20 November)
• 2405:3800:382:4AD2:4DB8:9275:47FD:D4A9 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 21 November)
• 2405:3800:81:4A87:D909:D055:63E9:1B72 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 22 November, blocked for 31 hours)
• 2405:3800:402:80d9:adaa:b75a:4158:dab0 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 23 November, blocked for 48 hours)
• 2405:3800:481:7AB8:F18E:E31F:B507:AD7B (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 25 November)
• 2405:3800:200:7877:F02A:382A:8EC1:D3F3 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 25 November)
• 2405:3800:500:a4e0:51a6:8fb:9577:3eac (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 25 November)
• 2405:3800:401:9BC3:D125:C888:FB24:139F (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 25 November)
• ‎2405:3800:402:170c:c16c:9ed9:4569:9cda (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 25 November)
• ‎2405:3800:83:284:4d04:4b2:61a5:114c (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 25 November)
• 2405:3800:280:770c:b833:7ecf:b6e3:6a1b (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (active on 26 November)

The same vandal which was reported as Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive994#User:2405:3800::/32 had returned. The previous range 2405:3800::/37 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) which is a subset of the mega range 2405:3800::/32 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) seem approiate to cover all current ip he used recently in November. Matthew hk (talk) 12:44, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

add 2 more ip. still the same /37 range . Matthew hk (talk) 12:49, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

add 1 more ip (compare Special:Diff/869950794 and Special:Diff/869975177). still the same /37 range and now block evasion of 2405:3800:501:331E:59A8:3578:DBA4:3379 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Matthew hk (talk) 16:42, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

@Oshwah:, @Ohnoitsjamie:, He re-appeared as 2405:3800:81:4A87:D909:D055:63E9:1B72 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Matthew hk (talk) 10:01, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Well the same /37 range had emerged yet another (unrelated?) vandal 2405:3800:382:448:d92d:cf9d:b9ce:1eaf (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and one collateral damage (‎2405:3800:281:a94f:a468:eaf5:f9fe:29b9 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)). Matthew hk (talk) 15:47, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Actually that doesn't seem to be vandalism but a correct edit. I'll explain on the article talk page. Nil Einne (talk) 21:39, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

We the ip (2405:3800:382:448:d92d:cf9d:b9ce:1eaf) did not provide reliable source, and the news use "Datin Paduka" for Nancy Shukri. Well it may be two collateral damages for the /37 range, as you dig out the source for the usage of Dato on a female especially on Nancy Shukri. And the current time in Asia is the morning, so lets see the nationality vandal will emerge again with yet another ip or not, and than take ages to stack up to level 4 warning and then take ages to block when posting in AIV, and then he just flipped to another ip and loop. Matthew hk (talk) 22:13, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

You obviously did the best with what you had. And you're right that one source uses that title. Assuming you did a Google News Search, possibly you searched with the title in the search them? When I do a Google News search, that's pretty much one of the only results I find with that title . If I search for just her name, I find a large number which use some variant of Dato' Sri (mostly commonly Datuk Seri, sometimes Dato Sri) [139] [140] [141] [142] [143] [144]. Also I should clarify I only meant to refer to that one IP. When I had a quick look earlier at examples from the range, most were vandalism so I agree most edits from that range seem to be a problem and even with these two examples of good faith editing, the collateral is probably very small. Nil Einne (talk) 22:40, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

And here come another ip (2405:3800:481:e8c3:e6d4:6fea:2255:f4b (talk · contribs · WHOIS)) from /37 range that not related to nationality. How notable it is, to mention the similarity of Malaysia plates with prefix P to vehicle registration plates of Trinidad and Tobago?? Matthew hk (talk) 23:16, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

And may be yet another collateral ? 2405:3800:401:6045:C9EA:92E7:ADC1:4376 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) adding unsourced linkage of two festivals of Asia. Matthew hk (talk) 01:01, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Well after active for 3 days from 19 November, the vandal seems disappeared. The new edits from the /37 range seem another good faith edit on fixing hon. title (Dr., Dato, Datin). Matthew hk (talk) 11:43, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

And yet another may unrelated vandal (Special:Diff/870240966). Matthew hk (talk) 13:07, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

• Well, after a few seem collateral damage, he is back as 2405:3800:402:80d9:adaa:b75a:4158:dab0 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Matthew hk (talk) 15:30, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

• Back again as 2405:3800:481:7AB8:F18E:E31F:B507:AD7B (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 2405:3800:200:7877:F02A:382A:8EC1:D3F3 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 2405:3800:500:a4e0:51a6:8fb:9577:3eac (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Matthew hk (talk) 12:33, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

4 ips just today. 2405:3800:401:9BC3:D125:C888:FB24:139F (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Despite it may had high potential collateral damage (this one seem good faith Special:Diff/870337663), don't know today as a holiday, how many ip he would jumped. Matthew hk (talk) 12:40, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

6 ip just one Sunday is a good number. Matthew hk (talk) 13:47, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

• Active again at night as 2405:3800:280:770c:b833:7ecf:b6e3:6a1b (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Matthew hk (talk) 14:10, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

User:Gugi2001 and NOTHERE

• Gugi2001 (talk · contribs)
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Ethnicity in lede for every Kosovar international footballer

The user keep on spreading his greater Albanian nationalism and ignoring WP:OPENPARA, with no sign to communicate in user talk or respect the MoS. For example, Bernard Berisha, Benjamin Kololli and Valon Berisha never played for Albania national football team but Kosovo national football team only, so their "nationality in sport" is Kosovo only (and in Valon Berisha's case Kosovo and previously Norway). However, the user keep on spamming Kosovo Albanians to the articles with edit summary "Kosovo is not nation!". Matthew hk (talk) 15:30, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Here is the revert diff in Valon Berisha Special:Diff/869972795 and Special:Diff/869973246.

As a note. Valon Berisha played for both Norway and Kosovo in sport. So how relevant to call him Kosovo Albanians footballer? Matthew hk (talk) 16:27, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Here is the revert diff in Benjamin Kololli Special:Diff/869974141 and Special:Diff/870118340. Matthew hk (talk) 15:36, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

The revert in Kololli was done by other in this diff Special:Diff/866965006. Matthew hk (talk) 15:39, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

As a note. Benjamin Kololli is born in Switzerland and played for Kosovo in sport only . So, how relevant to call him Kosovo Albanians as nationality+ethnicity (dual nationality?) Matthew hk (talk) 16:26, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Here is the revert diff in Bernard Berisha: Special:Diff/870119181 and Special:Diff/870119425. Matthew hk (talk) 15:54, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

As a note. Bernard Berisha is born in Kosovo, (by-then part of SFR Yugoslavia ). He represented Kosovo in sport only. So, how relevant to call him Kosovo Albanians? Matthew hk (talk) 16:29, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• I can't look further into this matter right now, but I did revert the most recent set of edits which contained uselessnesses such as this. Drmies (talk) 15:37, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
• Isn't this kind of Balkans-related arguing over nationality under discretionary sanctions? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:58, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: I don't mind if wikipedia actually accepts every Kosovar people were tagged as Kosovar Albanian as a standard due to "dual nationality", but currently most of the Albanian ethnicity and nationality are not backed by reliable source, and non-notable to mention according to the discussion in WP:Footy. There is a few exception, as many Kosovar footballer had played for both Albania national football team and Kosovo national football team, for example Samir Ujkani. Matthew hk (talk) 16:03, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

More diff: Loret Sadiku: Special:Diff/869815417 . A dual-(sport)nationality of Sweden and Kosovo, was tagged by the user as Kosovo Albanian. Matthew hk (talk) 16:14, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

And more related discussion on lede and ethnicity in WP:Footy.

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 120#Nationality in lead
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 115#Marwan Kabha Matthew hk (talk) 16:24, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• Well. May be solved faster with SPI. Exact wording in edit summary. Matthew hk (talk) 17:18, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
• Hmm I'm guessing I might lose a couple of ArbCom votes over that--six, to be precise. Drmies (talk) 17:50, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
• The 100th anniversary of the end of WWI having just passed, this is a good time to remind people that no one gives a shit about which footballers are Albanian or whatever. Give it a rest after 1000 years, for fuck sake. EEng 13:52, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

• Amen to that, brother. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:47, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
• +1 from me. --Blackmane (talk) 23:11, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Frame

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

There's been some minor oddities about how Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Frame was closed (see User talk:Serial Number 54129#Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Frame). I don't think anything that happened rises to the level of disruption, or even beyond good-faith editing, but it would be useful if an uninvolved admin took a look to validate the non-admin close. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:00, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Just looking at it casually, the article was saved as no consensus so no damage was done by the closure. Damage is when an AfD is closed and the article is permanently destroyed. Trackinfo (talk) 19:41, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Bishonen | talk 20:55, 22 November 2018 (UTC).

I am reading No, it isn't as meaning their are options for recovering the article after an AfD deletion (although requests to access or resurrect the content may be difficult/offputting for a non-admin but will usually be granted to a non-admin for a reasonably reasoned request).Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:06, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Nothing is permanently destroyed. Any admin can restore a deleted article without any trouble at all if an article is deleted incorrectly. --Jayron32 16:03, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Deleting an article that shouldn't be in an encyclopedia is not damage. Reyk _YO! 12:42, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

It didn't go a full seven days after the *third* re-list, but other than that it seems like a perfectly reasonable close to me. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 04:10, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

I was the originator of concerns over that closure which ultimately I think everyone agrees was ultimately correct, but there were some procedural errors in processing. Because RoySmith was a little involved in that discussion I suggest he's probably brought it here for a neutral admin to agree closure was OK. There are 3 procedural points:

• 1: The relist with 168 hours, a 'minor' procedural error that I think we all agree is trivial at ANI level
• 2: The removal of the relist from the closed ANI discussion record. I don;t think there was any issues with RoySmith re-instating it.
• 3: The closure of AfD within 168 hours of the relist with no consensus ... which perhaps is the interesting one and would likely have been dealt with a simple dialog between myself and the closer Serial Number 54129 if (2) had not occurred. The (non-admin) closer has argued, and as far as I can now judge quite reasonably, the WP:RELIST allows A relisted discussion may be closed once consensus is determined without necessarily waiting a further seven days. ... and closed with the comment: The result was no consensus to delete the article was established; a future merge, can, of course, still be discussed on the relevant talk page (My view now is actually very pragmatic given the spread of delete/keep/merge meaning no delete consensus was likely to occur and merge are better discussed outside of AfD).

The interesting point on 78.26's comments is the implication the close after the 3rd relist may have been not perfectly reasonable. If this point needs discussion then DRV would be a better option ... (not to overturn decision but for procedural clarification) ... though I believe RoySmith brought this here for a quick uninvolved admin review of actions. I have no doubts whatsoever everyone is here in good faith.Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:06, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

• The close looks fine to me. After the the first 7 days are completed in full a discussion can be closed at any time when consensus is reached, there is no need to wait a further 7 days after a relist. The only procedural error I see is a user removing a relist from a closed thread. Szzuk (talk) 12:33, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

• The AfD close looks remarkably unremarkable. The main procedural oddity is that the issue is being discussed here rather than at WP:DRV. This discussion should be speedily closed. Andrew D. (talk) 13:09, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

• Just to clarify, the discussion itself was rather exemplary, with editors discussion notability, attempting to retain encyclopedic content, keeping and open mind, and even changing their position as evidence and logic presented itself. Still, after an entire month, no clear consensus has presented itself. There are two potential issues, both small. According WP:RELIST, A relisted discussion may be closed once consensus is determined. I suppose that closing as "no consensus" technically violates this, as by definition consensus has not been determined. But it was a whole month. Consensus was highly unlikely to be reached, and the reasonable close was that consensus is that there's no consensus. Regarding the removal of the third relist notice, the editor who did that admitted it was a mistake on Serial's talk page, and thanked the editor who reverted them. I don't see anything that harmed Wikipedia, anything that would cause me to distrust any of the editors who participated here or in this discussion, so cookies and hot chocolate for everyone! 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 14:54, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sean Emmett

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

There's a UTRS request here, and as a result I modified some of the content at Sean Emmett to reflect what the source actually says. Since then, we've had edit warring to make this change with the edit summary "Incorrect facts were posted. Sean Emmett was never arrested or charged with murder in Dubai" - but the edit removed all of the "Personal life" section, and none of the removed content had said that he was arrested or charged with anything (not after I'd already removed that allegation). I've protected for 3 hours and would prefer to hand it over to others to keep an eye on now. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:23, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

I think the best thing to do would be to extend the semi-protection if it resumes. Fish+Karate 15:41, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Sansonic's unsourced additions

Sansonic has been warned multiple times about making unsourced additions to British Pakistanis. See, for example, User talk:Sansonic#July 2018, User talk:Sansonic#August 2018 and User talk:Sansonic#November 2018. The additions continue, however, and are starting to get a bit silly. Is it time for a block? Cordless Larry (talk) 16:42, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

not sure why Sansonic and another shared IP keep tampering the article endlessly. Talk page speaks volumes about the ignorance of good faith editing. Devopam (talk) 19:43, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, high time, Larry. I notice that Sansonic hasn't edited their talkpage since 2011. Perhaps they've stopped reading it, too. Their block log contains some serious blocks, but only from 2009 — 2010, so I suggest ignoring it for purposes of block length now. How about a week, with a warning of more if it happens again? Bishonen | talk 19:55, 23 November 2018 (UTC).

That seems appropriate to me, Bishonen. Looking at Sansonic's user page and their edits to the politics section of the article, I am concerned that many of their additions are being driven by political bias. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:17, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

I meant to suggest you do it, Larry, but that's fine; I've blocked. Actually it may be as well to demonstrate that other admins besides you disapprove of their editing, since you have posted so many warnings to them. Bishonen | talk 20:42, 23 November 2018 (UTC).

Thanks, Bishonen. Yes, I considered myself involved, so didn't want to give a block myself. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:48, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

IP 103.60.175.85

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• 103.60.175.85 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hi. This IP is the same editor as IP 103.60.175.15, who was blocked last month for one year for BLP issues. Now they're editing under this IP, and doing the same edits to the same articles (example, example). Please can this address be blocked too, and if possible, their edits rollbacked? Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:13, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to @Jo-Jo Eumerus: for info, who dealt with this previously. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:15, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Here are userlinks for the old IP: 103.60.175.15 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Both IPs' filter logs have lots of entries for changing dates of birth in the infobox. I would support a one year block of the new IP. EdJohnston (talk) 18:49, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Blocked one year and everything rolled back. Katie^talk 19:01, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

For what it's worth, it looks like you probably just rolled back the last 100 edits or so. If you meant to rollback every edit, there's another 500 or so. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:31, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the "rollback all" script only rolls back the edits that are listed on the page where you use it; perhaps Katie only had a list of the last 50 edits visible. I've certainly been had that way! I've rolled back the rest now. Bishonen | talk 21:10, 23 November 2018 (UTC).

Thanks to everyone here for their help. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 10:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Severe personal attacks by Hyper121

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Hyper121 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

For this[145] sort of automated edit by me, these sorts of replies[146][147][148] are unacceptable, and are considered severe personal attacks. -- Alex^TW 23:28, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

No kidding. Blocked. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 23:44, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Jpgordon, cheers! -- Alex^TW 02:57, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Movie Classic adding very subtle vandalism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Movie Classic has been editing several animation-related articles since signing up in July. Most of the edits are unobjectionable; however, scattered within them have been several instances of edits that are almost certainly known to be false. See the following edits: [149], [150], and [151]. In each case, the editor is putting in an entry that claims that a cartoon is being included with the DVD of a movie that no longer exists.

This seems like a particularly dangerous vandal, scattering plausible-sounding false information in among a much larger number of legitimate edits. I think an admin should take a look.—Chowbok ☠ 03:27, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

It's kind of stale, don't you think? Only 50 edits, and none since September? Should be relatively easy to clean up. 2600:8800:1880:188:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 05:32, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Please see WP:GAIV. Per guidelines for Administrator intervention against vandalism . "Any vandal who hasn't been warned properly should not be reported." Users are not blocked if: (1) The user hasn't been warned sufficiently.; and/or (2) The user stopped editing after the warning. Given that the above user was never warned, and has not edited since September, this should be closed out as non-actionable. — Maile (talk) 22:00, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated tampering with references (distortion / removal), using the word 'damn' against me, and other things

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Alexandermcnabb, who has authored novels and blogs, besides being active on Wikipedia for a long time, has been repeatedly tampering with references, despite trying to talk to him in Talk:Hazza bin Sultan Al Nahyan. After I asked him for assistance to turn my page Hazza bin Sultan Al Nahyan (for information, a WP:notable member of the Nahyan royal family of the Emirate of Abu Dhabi in what is now the United Arab Emirates) into an article using references like the Liwa Journal of National Archives, he did so, and things were going fine, until he made this edit on the 19th of this month, in which he split up the Liwa reference into different references with different pages, saying "citations need page numbers, it's no good quoting a whole journal article or book," even though I had already provided details like the chapter and page numbers.

Over 48 hours later, I made it clear in a revert that I had already provided the chapter and page numbers, and united the split-up reference as one reference again, and then corrected another reference, the details of which were messed up. The author of the second reference is Rosemarie Said Zahlan, so I mentioned that 'Zahlan' is the last name, and that 'Rosemarie Said' come first, but then McNabb reverted it all, saying "Please leave the citations as they were. It's better to be granular than not with facts - why would you want to remove more accurate citations?"

I decided not to immediately revert the whole thing, but make necessary corrections to references, like removing full stops in unusual places (like after the unabbreviated name of an author), and stating the first and last parts of the name of Rosemarie Said Zahlan, but then he reverted even that, saying "Dude, that's the format for citations. Leave them alone, they're good. Or create your own damn page."

I then made a 3rd revert, warning McNabb not to keep on distorting details of references like the first and last names of author Zahlan, and before he reverted that, I decided not to make any more reverts within the 24-hour period, but to talk to him about what he had done, complaining about his speeches like "create your own damn page", amongst other things.

After I finished that discussion at 06:11 AM GMT on the 22nd of this month, in which I again warned him not to distort or remove references (which he did in another UAE-related article, and we had a conversation about that), I waited another 60 hours to make the necessary changes to the details of references, and because of his insistence on keeping the Liwa reference split up based on page numbers, I decided to keep them split up, only modifying them to keep them similar in details, such as the name of the chapter ("Sheikh Hazza’ Bin Sultan Bin Zayed Al Nahyan (1905-1958) Representative of the Ruler of Abu Dhabi in the Western Region"), but he reverted even that, saying "But you haven't. You have removed a properly sourced citation with a page number and replaced it with a citation to the wrong type of source (Liwa is a journal, not a book) and obscuring the page number. Hardly an improvement." The comment is wrong because I did not remove any citation, and I stated the page numbers.

Because of that, I have decided not to even reply to his last comment in the talk-page of List of Ancient Settlements in the UAE (which he created on the 5th of September), in which he removed all the references that I put in to support an existing reference (EarthSky) that talks about only one out of 22 sites mentioned in the article, that is Jebel Faya. Because he removed those other references, the rest of the sites in the article, most of which he added, are now unsourced. Leo1pard (talk) 05:49, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

If the worst thing he says is 'damn' then you have no civility case. This screams content dispute that would be better solved with an RCF, though you both appear to have ownership issues... --Tarage (talk)

It's a damn miracle the worst thing he said was damn. And no, I have no ownership issues. I do have a load of my time being wasted issue and suspect a number of other people are now going to have theirs wasted. A list with linked items doesn't need references, IMHO. A reference with a page number is preferable to a large range, IMHO. These are the substantive elements raised in the long section above. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 05:57, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I decided to keep your split-up versions of the Liwa Journal of National Archives in Hazza bin Sultan Al Nahyan, due to your insistence on them being separated by page numbers, even if I didn't like it, so the issue is not about me having ownership issues, but your habit of tampering with references, like distorting the first and last names of an author, and even if not every section in a list needs a reference in it, it should at least be WP:verifiable, for example, the reference that you kept in List of Ancient Settlements in the UAE talks about only Jebel Faya, not the other sites, most of which you put in, meaning that much of what you put in there is unsourced. Leo1pard (talk) 06:53, 25 November 2018 (UTC); edited 06:57, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

This conversation doesn't even belong here. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 07:00, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I tried to talk to you about your removal / distortion of references in the talk-pages of those articles, but you don't want to listen, and I am not alone in this. Doug Weller had already spoken to you about sourcing content, but you 'violently' disagreed with him months after he spoke to you. Leo1pard (talk) 07:14, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

This is not about sourcing content, though, is it? It's not about distorting anything, but about you apparently not understanding how cites work. And starting needless threads on ANI. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 08:05, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

This is about sourcing content, and you have been distorting & removing references. For example, you put ".|last=Said.|first=Zahlan, Rosemarie|date=2016|" for Rosemarie Said Zahlan, not to mention your use of the full stops. I talked to you about this, but you don't want to listen, so I had to come here, and yet you're still not willing to accept what you've done wrong, saying things like "This is not about sourcing content, though, is it?" when I already showed that it is. Leo1pard (talk) 08:21, 25 November 2018 (UTC); edited 08:26, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:Hounding by Curly Turkey

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Following this discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, Curly Turkey (talk · contribs) has been WP:Hounding me, as I expected. This always happens with editors like Curly Turkey. So far, he has stalked me to three articles, seen here, here and here. Knowing what he's doing is not rocket science, and I'm not going to tolerate it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:54, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

• Curly Turkey edited those articles after few days to weeks after you edited them. These 3 examples are not good enough for demonstrating wikihounding. Qualitist (talk) 08:10, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

So you think that Curly Turkey showing up to those three articles in succession after our heated discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style has not a thing to do with the fact that they have largely been edited by me? I beg to differ. As the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive918#Charlotte135's behavior and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive947#Harassment by User:Flyer22 Reborn cases show, I've been down this road before. How many more articles that I significantly edit must Curly Turkey show up to for you to buy that he is hounding me? Let's not give Curly Turkey a pass because of the articles he's improved. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:20, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I clicked through to your user profile, as I do with just about everyone I interact with, and after taking a peak at some of the top articles you've edited, I corrected some MoS incompliances I saw—which, again, is what I do pretty much daily. I'm sure there are folks reading this now who can remember a bunch of their top articles suddenly popping up on their watchlists after interacting with me. This is the first time I've seen anyone describe this behaviour as something sinister.

You're really trying way too hard to "gotcha" me, Flyer22 Reborn. Perhaps some self-reflection would do you some good. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:57, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Do you think any of us were born yesterday? There is no other editor but me who would bounce from the Supercouple article, to the Vagina article, to the Titanic (1997 film) article. My editing interests are that unique. I can only assume how many other articles you were going to show up at before I called you out. This happens every single time I deal with an editor like you. Editors like you stalk and harass and then tell me to get over myself or that you are doing nothing sinister. What you are doing is no different than what Charlotte135 did, and that editor was recently indefinitely blocked for continuing to hound me. It's only certain editors who are like this. I've been stalked harassed enough to know. I get into a heated debate with an editor like you, and then that editor starts popping up at articles I edit to annoy. It is exactly why I state the following at the top of my talk page about disruptive editors, including WP:Socks, and disgruntled editors: "If you offend a Wikipedia editor via a significant dispute, and sometimes even a minor dispute, it is likely that the editor will seek to stalk and harass you, or get 'payback' in some other way." It's why I note that I do not list my GAs or FAs -- because it results in unwanted attention from stalkers and disgruntled editors. I've been through this time and time again. You have been in trouble times before for harassing. It was not surprising to me in the least that you popped up at the articles you did. It would be like me suddenly popping to the articles you've significantly edited. But I wouldn't...because I don't have the mindset to annoy those I've just been in a heated discussion with or others. And I'm just not interested in you or editors like you. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:49, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Jesus F. Christ—I just said that I clicked through to your user profile and click through to a bunch of the articles you edited! Are you even reading what you're responding to? How can you accuse me of being "sneaky" about what I've just announced to the world?!?!?!? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:59, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

And how does that not count as you doing so to annoy me? We were just in a freaking heated discussion, where you were making all sorts of provocative and unsubstantiated accusations against me. WP:Hounding clearly notes "is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor." You mean to tell me you were simply being collegial? Come off of it. As for "being 'sneaky' about what [you've] just announced to the world," look at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive887#Some sort of editing restriction between Flyer22 and Bfpage. That editor also admitted to looking at my contributions, but that editor going to the articles I edited was clearly considered "an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor." I don't see why you or anyone else thinks that your case is different. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:20, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I wasn't being "collegial", I was copyediting the article I was looking at! If that "provokes" you, or "creates irritation, annoyance, or distress"—Holy Christ, already! What rational response is there to that? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:36, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Sighs. You say all that to someone who has been stalked like this times before, with the community seeing right through such comments each time. Given what was just going on between us, I can't see how anyone can actually fall for your "it wasn't mean to cause irritation" claim. Only editors who support you no matter what you do and those with past issues with me will support such a narrative. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:40, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

*Sighs* ... why does it even irritate you that I'd edit an article you have? Where does this rage towards me even come from? I wouldn't be bringing you to ANI if you'd moved a few commas in ukiyo-e this morning. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:04, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Sighs. Rage towards you? How about your rage towards me? Anyone is free to see what you and I stated to each other in the aforementioned discussion. After that heated argument we had, what do you think you showing up to those articles accomplishes? All it does is increase the chance of more confrontations with you, and more confrontations with me is precisely what those other editors were looking for. If I disagree with your edits, that means reverting and you possibly reverting me back and more arguing. This is how WP:Interaction bans happen. Again, this is not something that I have not been through times before. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe you've been hounded before (I wouldn't know), but you haven't been today. Your tinfoil-hattery is contagious, though—you've now thoroughly convinced me that if you reverted me, it would be to pwn me. In other words, you don't come across as someone acting in good faith—you talk like someone who was hunting for an excuse to kick up some drahmah at ANI. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 14:10, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe I've been hounded? Yes, yes, the previous hounding cases are a "maybe" matter, despite the consensus in them that there was indeed hounding. As for showing up at articles, you act like showing you up to articles an editor has edited after insulting that editor in a discussion is not a problem...even though it has been a problem since Wikipedia has existed. You act like disagreement with you and confrontation with you is unlikely to happen in such instances. And yet many editors who've sought to annoy those they've just insulted in a discussion have done what you've done today. We have known each issues. That aforementioned MOS discussion is not the only time we have gotten into a heated debate. So, yes, this is where WP:Hounding comes in. As the MOS talk discussion shows, you are known to accuse someone of bad-faith interaction when they disagree with you. Like my use of singular they just now? Anyway, as this discussion with Beyond My Ken shows, you also wrongly accused him of bad-faith interaction. We see more of the same below that discussion; even your tone to Zero0000 there is an issue. This is nothing new from you. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:35, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe I am missing it, where did they accuse you of being sneaky?Slatersteven (talk) 11:05, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Slatersteven—This comment: "Do you think any of us were born yesterday? There is no other editor but me who would bounce from the Supercouple article, to the Vagina article, to the Titanic (1997 film) article."—coming immediately in response to my explanation of how I got to those articles—byclicking through her userpage and taking a peak at some of her most-edited articles. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:32, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

AGF, your the one who has banged on about this on this ANI so how about practicing it?.Slatersteven (talk) 11:50, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

You just said down below that Flyer is not obliged to assume good faith before crying hound, and that you are unwilling to accept CT's claim of a legit reason for checking contribs without being given further reason to do so, and you accused me (twice) on my talk of "egregiously violating policy" for having accidentally blanked one of your comments due to a string of edit conflicts, even after I had politely and patiently explained what had happened (you did it once before, but I'm not even counting that). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:09, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

When did I say that I do not accept CT's claim? As to the rest, this is not about you or me, and what I (or you) have said elsewhere is irrelevant.Slatersteven (talk) 12:13, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

You: I do not know the users (sic) intent.

Me: The user stated their intent.

You: No, as I said in this case it was not hounding. (Note: That's not actually what you had said; you had said you didn't necessarily think it was hounding. But AGF is not a suicide pact, if have (sic) good reason to doubt they are being truthful.

How can the above exchange not be interpreted as you doubting CT's claim?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:20, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Also, you said it in an edit summary to an edit you made to this thread, and in a spin-off message on my talk page; that's hardly "irrelevant". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:22, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

It was said in response to your statement that policy says it is not (thus never, in effect) harassment to follow another user to a page. I just pointed out that no, it is not a case it is never harassment is is rather judged on a case by case basis.Slatersteven (talk) 13:09, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

That is an accusation of hounding, not being sneaky.Slatersteven (talk) 11:39, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Slatersteven: Let's ask Flyer22 Reborn: Can you explain explicitly what you're accusing me of with the comment "Do you think any of us were born yesterday? There is no other editor but me who would bounce from the Supercouple article, to the Vagina article, to the Titanic (1997 film) article."? It looks to me like you're accusing me of sneakily editing these articles to get under your skin. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:51, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

"Do you think any of us were born yesterday?" clearly means "You are trying to be sneaky, but I wasn't born yesterday and can see right through it." SS, are you pretending not to be able to read so that someone will point this out and you can then claim they are making fun of some disability you have, as you did to MPants last year? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I would suggest you drop this, there is not enough here to indicate he is hounding you. You have been told this by more then one users, listen.Slatersteven (talk) 10:57, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Per what I stated above and below with links to past cases, I don't agree that there is not enough here to indicate he is hounding me. And, really, how many more articles does he need to pop up to for someone to do something? It's clearly causing me distress, and after my argument with Curly Turkey at the aforementioned guideline talk page, I don't see how anyone can think that his intentions were good-faith. But I won't fight consensus on this matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:20, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

It is intent, not effect, that matters. Now maybe you are right and this is deliberate, maybe. But at this time there is just not enough evidence. I suggest you drop this and give him more rope, if he is harassing he is going to continue. Then come back here with a stronger case. Wait untill he does go out of his way to make nonsensical edits that just undo your work.Slatersteven (talk) 11:30, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

• F22R: You have a tendency to accuse people of "hounding" much too lightly. Please bear in mind that there are lot of legitimate reasons for monitoring other editors' contributions, and proving "hounding" is extremely difficult. Heck, I would probably be justified in monitoring your contributions so that I could jump in whenever you made a bad-faith hounding accusation as you did, say, here. You even admitted in that post that you considered yourself to have been similarly "hounded" in the past, and even include such a claim on your user page, If you offend a Wikipedia editor via a significant dispute, and sometimes even a minor dispute, it is likely that the editor will seek to stalk and harass you, or get "payback" in some other way, without recognizing the possibility that every single current candidate for ArbCom might be correct in answering my question to them on the issue in pretty much the same way. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:09, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Hijiri88, you and I have had issues with each other. So I was expecting you, who hangs out here at WP:ANI, to state what you did above. But as the aforementioned hounding cases I've pointed to, including Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive887#Some sort of editing restriction between Flyer22 and Bfpage, show, it's not true in the least that I have "have a tendency to accuse people of 'hounding' much too lightly." You can't point to any case I've brought to WP:ANI where editors agreed that I wasn't being hounded. If any case is deemed to be a "not hounding" case after I've argued that it is, this would be the first one...and only because of Curly Turkey's clout and wiki friends. Your quote from the top of my talk page is specifically about "disruptive editors, including WP:Socks, and disgruntled editors," and it's there exactly because I have been through this so many times. It's the same pattern each and every damn time, like clockwork. It is no coincidence that I was waiting for Curly Turkey to do what he did, and he did just that. The top of my talk page also notes that I do not list my GAs or FAs because it results in unwanted attention from stalkers and disgruntled editors. I've been through this time and time again. Only the notable cases have made it to WP:ANI. And in the case this involving you and Pyxis Solitary, yes, I agreed that you were hounding Pyxis Solitary. Some of us have eyes. I am not an editor whose edits need monitoring, and Curly Turkey and I were just going at it at the aforementioned talk page. So the good faith monitoring noted at WP:Hounding does not apply. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:49, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

An ANI thread from four years ago of you accusing an editor of hounding you and getting community consensus to that effect proves that "it's not true in the least that" that when you accuse me, CT and so on of hounding you are not doing so lightly? I agreed that you were hounding Pyxis Solitary proves pretty handily that you think "following" an editor, regardless of whatever good-faith reasons one might have for doing so, constitutes "hounding". You need to stop doing so. So the good faith monitoring noted at WP:Hounding does not apply. Several current and potential Arbs have pointed to the problematic (overly vague/permissive) nature of the current policy wording; the authoritative view expressed in the above-linked ArbCom finding is what I am going on. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:06, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Your arguments are odd. I'm not going to entertain them. No one stated that following an editor automatically equates to WP:Hounding. WP:Hounding is clear about what WP:Hounding is. Why in the world should anyone have thought that you following Pyxis Solitary around was not hounding, given your history with Pyxis Solitary? Why in the world do you think you were the best person to do that, given your history with Pyxis Solitary? Your good faith monitoring argument is a bust, as those past ANI threads show. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:20, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

What history with Pyxis Solitary? I noticed a problematic trend with her edits, checked her contribs to confirm that it was a trend, and found I was correct. Anyway, it's really not cool for you to be going around talking about how an editor who is one-way IBANned from you hounded you back in 2015 when they've hardly edited for more than a year. it comes across as grave-dancing. Anyway, "my good faith monitoring argument" was supported by every member of 2015 ArbCom, and has recently been supported by (nearly?) all candidates running for 2019 ArbCom, so how you could call it "a bust" is beyond me -- have you clicked any of the links I provided? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:32, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Your arguments are still odd. It is perfectly fine to point to past cases were I've been stalked as examples, especially when countering false claims that I "have a tendency to accuse people of 'hounding' much too lightly." Those past ANI threads do not support you on that AT ALL. And as for "they've hardly edited for more than a year," that editor has two accounts, and the latter one is active, which you would know if you took the time to read the cases against that editor. And in a more recent case, that editor's history with me was found to be a problem as well. I obviously disagree with you about your "good faith monitoring" claims. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:49, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

It is perfectly fine to point to past cases were I've been stalked as examples, especially when countering false claims that I "have a tendency to accuse people of 'hounding' much too lightly." How can you not see the flawed logic of that: your having made one or more non-bogus hounding accusations (of which I wasn't even aware) doesn't disprove the claim that that you've also made bogus hounding claims. The two are completely unrelated. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:58, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

You are the one who went on about a supposed "tendency to accuse people of 'hounding' much too lightly" based on me believing that you hounded Pyxis Solitary and now the accusation I've made against Curly Turkey. That isn't "a tendency" of anything. Your "a tendency" claim is flawed. You even conceded that you weren't aware of my past stalking cases, and yet you jumped the gun by acting like I just go around making hounding claims left and right, and you called for a boomerang and stated "probably grounds for an immediate block rather than the last chance a TBAN implies topic ban" below. There is no one other than possibly Curly Turkey who would support you on the notion that I some disruptive editor. Good grief. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:15, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I did not say you some disruptive editor good grief: I said you had made several bad-faith hounding accusations and needed to stop. That you did it once to me and once to a "friend" of mine (with whom I rarely agree on article content or the like, except when policy is unambiguous, I might point out) is kinda beside the point; you shouldn't do it more than once now that I've corrected you. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:25, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

And your "made several bad-faith hounding accusations" claim is false. Furthermore, with the talking points you've made, you indicated that I was being disruptive. You even proposed a freaking topic ban. And what "friend" of yours are you talking about? Curly Turkey? If someone else, then do point to this mysterious editor. As Slatersteven has made clear, no one can look into an editor's head with regard to their intent. All we can do is go by assessment. It is your opinion that Curly Turkey was not hounding me, and that opinion does mean that it's fact. You haven't corrected me on a thing. All you have done is throw around false "tendency" claims about me and try to have me treated like a disruptive editor, as if that has any chance of happening. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

You're the one who freaking accused me of freaking hounding and then freaking accused freaking CT of the same freaking thing. You need to stop this behaviour. Accusations such as "this user is engaged in hounding", when made without evidence, are personal attacks, and YOU NEED TO STOP. You've done nothing but argue in your own defense, and made no indication that you intend to back down and reflect on your own poor (policy-violating) behaviour. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:42, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Just so it's clear, the above over-use of "freaking" is not a sign that I am "losing my cool" and flipping out; I'm satirically poking fun at the colourful language F22RB has been using throughout this thread. The BOLDED/ITALICIZED/CAPITALIZED TEXT, though, is done for emphasis, as this is a really critical point that doesn't seem to be coming across no matter how many times I repeat it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

There you again with the "this is a pattern" thing. I am under no obligation to believe you or Curly Turkey. As my past stalking cases show, the community is under no obligation to take the accused person's word for it. Clearly, the "no one can look into an editor's head with regard to their intent. All we can do is go by assessment" aspect just boggles your mind. I have presented evidence, and the editor admitted specifically going to articles I've edited, just like the editor in the aforementioned 2015 case did. It is YOUR OPINION that Curly Turkey's intent was innocent. You've done nothing but derail this thread and make it about you and your belief in Curly Turkey's intent being innocent. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:53, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure that just turning up at the same articles is hounding, but CT does admit he looked as the users edit history and then followed him. I do not think this (in and of itself) is hounding.Slatersteven (talk) 10:15, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: No, it's not hounding at all. It's only hounding if it's done with the specific intention of harassment (ArbCom decision permalink): CT explicitly stated in the same breath that he was fixing MOS issues. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:20, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

"I do not think this (in and of itself) is hounding." So I am not sure what you are addressing.Slatersteven (talk) 10:21, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Now that I've clarified the policy for you, next time you can say "I am certain that, unless some other evidence is presented, this is not hounding by any means, and here's why". The quote above clearly implies a lack of certainty over what is, for me at least, a fairly cut-and-dry issue. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:30, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

No, I would say the same thing, as I do not know the users intent. Thus (if) the users was indeed intending to create irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor it should be considered harassment. On the other hand if this was not the intent then it is not harassment. It is thus a question of how much you but the accused explanation, a value judgment that has to be done on a case by case basis (thus findings in one case may not be applicable (and thus cannot be policy) in another).Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The user stated their intent. Are you admitting to refusing to assume good faith even when you have no reason to do otherwise? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:06, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

No, as I said in this case it was not hounding. But AGF is not a suicide pact, if have good reason to doubt they are being truthful.Slatersteven (talk) 11:12, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

So, AGF is not a suicide pact when following it in a reasonable manner would hinder your own desired activities, but it is to be treated as a suicide pact when it would hinder me or CT or anyone else you think Flyer should be allowed accuse of "hounding"? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:29, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

It has not, you can still edit (and so can CT, as he has been now on a number of pages I edit, suddenly). As long as an accusations without merit is withdrawn in a timely fashion there should be no issue, we can all make mistakes or make false accusations of hounding (and of trolling).Slatersteven (talk) 11:43, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I will note that if a uses is constantly asking a user to explain or justify themselves is hardly enabling then to drop the stick. This should now be closed, and maybe some trouts all round. Flyer22 you do not really have a case, and all that is going to happen is you lose sympathy, ask for this to be closed. Do not dig an even deeper hole.Slatersteven (talk) 12:05, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Boomerang time?

It just came to my attention that I actually called Flyer's attention to the above ArbCom decision well over a year ago, and she edited the thread again, indicating an awareness of my having replied to her, and she's still making the same bogus hounding accusations more than a year later. Is it time for a restriction ("Flyer22 Reborn is not allowed accuse other editors of hounding/stalking her" or something to that effect)? Honestly, this level of IDHT and disruptive hurling of baseless accusations are probably grounds for an immediate block rather than the last chance a TBAN implies, but ... well, AGF is a suicide pact. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:38, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Is there evidence they have done this on a regular basis?Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Disruptive behaviour, if repeated after being told to stop, doesn't need to be "regular" as long as it is repeated. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:47, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

What are you going on about? Sighs. Replied to you above. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:49, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I'll have to re-read my initial interaction with you at WT:V from 2016, since I recall seeing the above diff of you accusing me of hounding a year later and thinking "Yeah, that seems about right". You're doing it again here and now, so I don't think it'd be out of line to call it a recurring problem whether I was misremembering something or not. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:06, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

As far as I can tell this is not related to him them launching an ANI about being hounded. Thus this is not repeated behavior that is in need of action.Slatersteven (talk) 10:54, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Slatersteven. I'm female, by the way. Hijiri88 is still hung on our past issues, including me agreeing that he was hounding Pyxis Solitary. And like I noted above, there is no hounding accusation I've made where editors didn't agree that I was being hounded. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:00, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

You claimed I was hounding Pyxis, based on your own twisted interpretation of WP:HOUND, and you are doing the same thing now. The only person who agreed with you in the former case was Pyxis, and no one agrees with you here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:06, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

That was no ANI case. That was an argument, with you rambling at an administrator's talk page. As for "no one agrees with [me] here," we'll see. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:25, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: Please retract and apologize for That was an argument, with you rambling at an administrator's talk page. A brief glance at the above diffs will clearly show that at the time you made the accusation against me, I not only had not "rambled" on the page but had not even commented once (or even become aware of the discussion). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:29, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Eh? By "rambling," I am referring specifically to your comments there on that talk page. Your "at the time [I] made the accusation against [you]" statement matters not. Maybe I should point to our history so that editors will know that you commenting here is nothing but grudge antics. That is, if it's not already clear to them that you are still sour about the Pyxis Solitary matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:40, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

You made a bogus accusation against me. No one agreed with your accusation. The fact that it took place on the user talk page of a member of ArbCom rather than ANI is the bit that "matters not". And no, I have a long history of pointing out bogus hounding accusations on ANI for what they are, which have nothing to do with you. My history with you is only relevant in that it means I know without engaging in specific research that this bogus hounding accusation thing is a recurring problem with you. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:49, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

You've derailed this thread enough with your grudge antics, including your grudge antics against Slatersteven. Your history with me is relevant because every disagreement we have is about your past issues with me. Even here, you state, "Wow, Flyer ... I didn't think you were still holding a grudge against me for this interaction fourteen months ago." It was a completely unsubstantiated claim. And let's not forget the nonsense seen by you at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 17#Audience response covered under the "Critical response" heading?, where I stated, "You misinterpret everything, which is why, like I've told you before, it is frustrating trying to communicate with you." You state that "this bogus hounding accusation thing is a recurring problem with [me]," and yet the community was with me time and time again for the very valid hounding claims I've made. Sighs. Again, I won't keep entertaining you. Giving your harassment history, it is no surprise that you and Curly Turkey are of the same ilk. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Well ... yeah. Assuming you are holding a grudge against me for some past slight is actually the AGF solution in cases like that: what you said was so outrageously ridiculous that the only other explanations would be that you are incompetent (I assume you wouldn't appreciate me assuming that) or that you are trolling for shits and giggles. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:58, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

*Bangs head against a wall* Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:15, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

BTW, I went back and did a bit of reading: apparently I called you out for misrepresenting prior policy discussions to suit your agenda before. You really need to learn to take a hint. There, you randomly inserted discussion of unrelated disputes apparently involving child-grooming and penises into a discussion about adding OR to articles on biblical literature, Korean history and so on, and claimed that because everyone agreed with you in those child-grooming and penis discussions, I must have been wrong on what I was saying -- I really can't follow this logic. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:00, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

More of your nonsense and "I'm holding a grudge against Flyer" mess, as usual. With the way you misrepresent people and make false claims, you can never accurately be stated to have called anyone out on anything. I would state that you really need to learn to take a hint, but we know know you won't. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:08, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I do have a tendency to see both users who I claim hounded me and users who claim I was hounding them blocked or otherwise sanctioned by unanimous or near-unanimous consensus of either the community or ArbCom, though, don't I? So maybe you should ask yourself whether I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the subject you are talking about. Again, see the question I asked every current candidate for ArbCom and got pretty much the same answer ("Yeah, I agree") out of all of them regarding this very issue barely a week ago. (Also note the somewhat hilarious fact that I asked all the ArbCom candidates about this very issue -- a "pet topic" of mine -- a week ago, and now you are claiming that I only showed up here because I don't like you, or because I like CT, or something.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Again, more making this about you. This is not about you. And either way, I am free to believe what I want about you, just like editors are free to believe in the innocence of those who were found to have stalked me in the past. You talk about asking myself whether I know what you're talking about when it comes to the subject I'm talking about. Well, I throw that back at you, considering the number of times I've been stalked and that I was right about it each and every time. The trajectory is always the same, which is why I was expecting Curly Turkey to do what he did. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:47, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, I throw that back at you, considering the number of times I've been stalked and that I was right about it each and every time. You keep saying that, but so far you've only linked to one prior incident with one user, which makes me very suspicious that that was just the best you had on offer and that the others were a lot greyer. I linked you to an ArbCom case where they were pretty explicit in saying that no, Hijiri did not hound any of those editors who claimed he was hounding them, because "hounding" necessarily involves malicious intent and Hijiri was clear in his policy-compliant intent. Here's another one from 2013 and another from the same year. Unlike you, apparently, I don't like drahma and so tend to take two-way IBANs as they're easier to swallow than one-way, so I'm not actually at liberty to discuss a few of the other ones, but there's a thread about another editor who hounded me a bit further up this page, and another in the most recent ANI archive. And (again unlike you) I'm not into dancing on the graves of all the half-dozen or so editors with whom I'm not currently IBANned but who wound up getting (de facto, in some cases) site-banned for their hounding of me. Yeah, the ball is very much in your court. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:05, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

One more, for the hell of it. Textbook hounding, no purpose other than harassment, and clearly bogus excuse cooked up after the fact. That is hounding; it was not hounding when the above-mentioned JoshuSasori told me "Yeah, I don't like what our MOS says, so I'm ignoring it", and I looked through his contribs to bring them in-line with MOS, even though he tried to claim it was. Does this not sound familiar at all? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:13, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

One prior incident with one user? I've linked to ANI cases involving three different editors so far; that includes this, this, this and this. In the latter two links, it's the same editor. Must I also point to the User:Nathan Larson/User:Tisane/User:Leucosticte cases? Do you know who Nathan Larson is? Read all about him. Or how about the Cali11298 cases? Or how about the RJR3333 cases? Oh, the memories of Flyer1822 (talk · contribs). Or maybe even the Dark Mistress cases. As these discussions show, a number of editors have noted that I have been stalked and harassed many times. Do you think Herostratus was just being nice when he gave me this barnstar? No, he knows what I've been through and what I still go through on this site. So do stop talking out of your ass. Your "unlike [me], apparently, [you] don't like drahma" commentary is laughable, given the disputes you get into and that you hang out at WP:ANI. It is not like I'm looking for the drama or am playing the victim. I have actually been stalked and harassed more times than I care to remember. Pointing to past disruption, especially when accused of having a tendency of making false hounding claims and when someone states that they are "very suspicious that that was just the best [I] had [to] offer and that the others were a lot greyer" is not grave-dancing. Furthermore, you are pointing to past cases where you are asserting that you were right. Should one state that you are grave-dancing? Stop making this thread about you. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:51, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

As flattered as I am that you are as interested in my ass as you are, I highly doubt any of the above included your parents' home address being posted on the site or your employer being contacted with a request that you be banned from editing Wikipedia at work. I never said you had not been hounded, merely that you had not supported your assertion that you have a long history of correctly identifying hounding and never being wrong; your assertion, on the other hand, that when I say that I know I am talking about when it comes to hounding that I am talking out of my ass is quite offensive, given what I've been through and quite readily linked you to (the home address stuff has mostly been oversighted so I'm sure you'll forgive me not linking you to that). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:08, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

As usual, you are giving me a headache. It's easy for anyone to see what you were implying. And I'm not going to go into the details of what I've had to deal with regarding Nathan Larson and his bunch. This is not "my harassment was worse than yours" Olympics. My assertion that I have a long history of correctly identifying hounding and never being wrong is right there in my "15:51, 25 November 2018 (UTC)" post above. A number of WP:CheckUsers can also provide examples. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Comment As a Muslim, I must object to Curly Turkey's use of the phrase "Jesus F. Christ". Jesus Christ is a major figure in Islam, besides Christianity, the Bahá'í Faith, and to an extent, Hinduism and Buddhism. Wikipedia is not only viewed by people belonging to those faiths, but also edited by them, so whereas different views regarding figures like Muhammad and Jesus may be accepted, as per WP:Neutrality, insults, like using the F-word for any of them, must not be tolerated. Leo1pard (talk) 14:08, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

You're talking about that other Jesus, the one from Nazareth. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 14:14, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

If you had used the name of Muhammad, even if you didn't mean the man, that would still be considered to be offensive by Muslims, so it doesn't matter whether or not you mean any of those regarded as Prophets and messengers in Islam, you must be careful how you treat them or their names, particularly in front of Muslims. Even for the English or Romanized names of those treated as Prophets in both the Bible and the Quran, Muslims would add the honorific "Peace be upon him" besides them, and since this was done in Wikipedia, there had to be discussions on that, which shows you how much importance Muslims attach to figures whom they regard as Prophets. Leo1pard (talk) 15:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

@Leo1pard: I sympathize, and have actually advised CT to rein in his language on several occasions in the past, but given that you opened a thread further up this page about someone "using the word 'damn' against you", it would seem you are very much in the minority in this community regarding swearing as swearing. You must understand that in everyday English, among Christians and people from Christian backgrounds, "Jesus Christ" is frequently uttered as an expression of exasperation, and adding "fucking" is also quite common; and there was recently a fairly massive fustercluck discussion at WT:CIVIL with the consensus being that simply saying "fuck" or equivalent words is not in itself sanctionable without regard for context. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I see, but you also have to bear in mind that things like that can ignite great controversy outside Wikipedia, even attracting censorship from Governments, like that of Pakistan, which had imposed blocks on Wikipedia before, and where the Asia Bibi blasphemy case has happened (even if the charges were found by the court to be unreliable, and though the Government took action against hardliners), so caution must be taken. Leo1pard (talk) 15:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

If you want to talk about the danger of Wikipedians exercising free speech in community talk spaces potentially bringing down censorship from the government of Pakistan ... well, I think you've got a VERY uphill battle to convince the community to agree with you on that point, but I also think you really need to not try to bring that up in a completely unrelated discussion like this one. For one thing, while CT is often called out for his colourful languages, this is one of the times when that is not the case, since the accuser (F22RB) actually has more colourful language in this case. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:49, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

How about everyone in this thread just stops interacting with each other other? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:53, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Nothing would make me happier at the moment, but that wouldn't solve the underlying issues of F22RB refusing to accept the standard definition of hounding that, if I may paraphrase, "unless there is intention to harass, it ain't hounding". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:03, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

And once again, no one can look into an editor's head with regard to their intent. All we can do is go by assessment. Your opinion that their was no ill intent on Curly Turkey's part is just opinion. Your assessment is flawed for reasons already noted. But good job on derailing he thread; mission accomplished. It's always about you or your past issues with me when I'm involved. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:08, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Visual metaphor for the above discussion

-EEng

User:GSS doesn't understand process for proposing articles for deletion

Persistent vandalism of Rahul Mandal. The user keeps reverting edits and re-directing page. The user does NOT UNDERSTAND the process for proposing articles for deletion, does not allow contributions from other users to his proposal and keep re-directing page. HardB (talk) 08:07, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

@HardB: actually it is you who doesn't understand the process... You are creating a page about someone with no notability. GSS is well within the process here. You made no attempt to resolve your dispute with a very experienced editor. Instead you jumped right to reporting them here and didn't follow the first rule of reporting a user which is that you MUST notify them. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 08:28, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

@Zackmann08: regarding notability, one can hardly blame Hardb for assuming that this winner of TGBBO would be notable...when the other eight are presumed so: see Category:The Great British Bake Off winners. Just FYI. Personally, I don't think anyone is edified in that encounter. ——SerialNumber54129 10:28, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Oh and calling GSS's edits vandalism is a joke. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 08:29, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Note to admin: Should be noted that User:HardB comes very close to making a threat in comments towards User:GSS in this edit. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 08:33, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

That's not a threat. And redirecting the article isn't vandalism. You guys need to settle down. Since GSS stopped edit warring and nominated the article for deletion, this seems resolved to me. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:44, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Zackmann08, Thank you for notifying me about this discussion. @HardB: I actually assumed good faith when I redirect this article per WP:ATD which you reverted twice without any explanation or improvements even after I asked you to see WP:BLP1E and nominating it for deletion was an attempt to avoid WP:EDITWAR and to seek a permanent solution for this. Thank you – GSS (talk|c|em) 08:59, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree with NinjaRobotPirate, not a threat. User:Zackmann08, if you want to help at ANI, please try to deescalate - not inflame these discussions with wild accusations of threats. This isn't an RPG.--v/r - TP 18:39, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Cocktail and cocktail related pages

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

(block evasion reverted) Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits)

Who are or were you? These last several months, we've been getting edits from mobile phones, under your 2600+ identification. GoodDay (talk) 13:57, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

GoodDay, you've got it wrong. 2600 corresponds to a /4 CIDR range, which for IPv6 is 21,267,647,932,558,653,966,460,912,964,485,513,216 addresses. You can't assume they're all the same user. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:07, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I've been seeing a lot of 2600, 2604, 2605 etc mobile IPs lately. Some are helpful, while others are not. Just find it strange, how these become more frequent. GoodDay (talk) 14:09, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's just the march of progress. Many mobile ISPs are starting to implement IPv6 and simultaneously it is easier than ever to browse the web and edit Wikipedia from a mobile device. Some traditional (non-mobile, can't think of a better word) ISPs are also implementing IPv6, it's not just mobile devices. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:24, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

But, also, this IPv6 editor is obviously evading a block, and so now they are blocked as well. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:31, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Twinkle is broken

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This has been happening for at least several days, if I click the blue rollback link in twinkle, I get a page titled Wikipedia:(title of article on which I tried to use twinkle)&twinklerevert=norm which tells me that wikipedia does not have a project page with the name (title of article on which I tried to use twinkle)&twinklerevert=norm. And if I use the red vandalism button It tells me that wikipedia does not have a project page with the title: (title of article on which I tried to use twinkle)&twinklerevert=vand. Everything works fine if I am looking at the diff, but I have the problems when I try to click twinkle's rollback links from someones contribs page. Tornado chaser (talk) 18:39, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Try Github or the talk page.--v/r - TP 18:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Hello, nice person

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This user is clearly not intending to improve Wikipedia. Their First two edits were to insult blacks and say that they were here to vandalize. He then replaced Road with a statement calling Wikipedians negros and threatening to destroy the site, and made an additional statement of this intent elsewhere. This looks pretty clear-cut to me. I'm requesting immediate action to be taken on User:Hello, nice person. Thank you for your time. EditControl (talk) 23:26, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

• Blocked. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:28, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you. EditControl (talk) 23:29, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Help:Reverting

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Dear Administrators, please help me. Some Indonesia's fans had tried to change page Miss International 1976 and Indonesia at major beauty pageants. They changed placements of theirs country. They robbed achivements of some countries and replaced with theirs contestants. If you see history of these pages, you can see it. They had been abusing multiple accounts. I tried to stop but did not succeed. They are User:DPIDAMU, User:DeanBWFofficial and others. I'm so sorry because my English language skills is limited. Please help me to prevent them. Please consider blocking the user for a longer period of time or permanently. Thank you so much Nguyenquochieu2107 (talk) 7:10 , 26 November 2018 (UTC)

The two accounts you listed have already been blocked by User:GorillaWarfare. It's likely anyone else has also been blocked but you should list anyone who hasn't been blocked if you think they are a problem and make sure to notify them. Nil Einne (talk) 09:02, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@GorillaWarfare: and @Nil Einne: Thank you so much

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive editing and ignorance of editing policy

Editor User:Moscow Connection is violating PROMOTION, BALANCE, WEIGHT, NPOV, LEAD and OWN at the articles Japanese idol and Momoiro Clover Z. I started discussions, see Talk:Japanese idol#Momoiro Clover Z and Talk:Momoiro Clover Z#Disruptive removal of polls by Oricon. The editor is doing that in an attempt to promote an idol group, Momoiro Clover Z, in respective articles by using surveys without proper attribution (to The Nikkei), giving them overweight, against the records sales and polls by Oricon, the authoritative organization formed to follow trends and records sales in Japanese music industry. The editor is removing the reliably sourced polls by Oricon and ignoring the sales. The sales are the primary and main source of establishing popularity, besides perhaps in influence (which the group doesn't have any), in every popular music article, for example, see J-pop. In the discussion the editor is not constructively arguing with arguments, just "says" things and that he "wants" this and that, but ignoring that it's against editing policy, showing OWN behavior. Doesn't allow others to edit the article, and makes WP:POINT revert (for e.g. [152]) with which ignores multiple violation of editing policy. There also other more specific issues, but they can be found in the proper discussions.--78.1.87.210 (talk) 09:02, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• The anonymous editor has been edit-warring over some photos in the "Japanese idol" article for several days now. (He just makes the same edit over and over.) Yesterday I posted him a warning inviting him to "seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents", so here he is.
  And yes, I want the article in question to retain all the photos. Momoiro Clover Z and Babymetal are extremely popular, I've explained that to him. The surveys used in the Momoiro Clover Z photo description are reliable. There's much more to popularity than Oricon sales. AKB48's sales are artificially bloated cause the group has a system that encourages fans to buy multiple copies of the same CD. (Hes, they still sale CDs.) Momoiro Clover Z is very popular concert-wise and they are respected by music critics and heavily talked about in the Japanese media.
  And we don't have many good photos of Japanese idols we can use. I've already said to him that if he has some photos of Japanese boy bands, he can put them in the article any time.
  All that said, I think that it is this editor's edits that "violate PROMOTION, BALANCE, WEIGHT, NPOV". He seems to be an AKB48 fan who doesn't like the fact that the "Japanese idol" article has photos of other groups. --Moscow Connection (talk) 10:46, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

You are both edit warring, and over a really trivial matter. I suggest that the page is reset to before the edit wear and locked whilst both eds calm down a bit.Slatersteven (talk) 10:56, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• I just revert the article to its former state, I have all the right to do it. While this editor, who is obviously an avid AKB48 fan (which is not bad in itself), attempts to change the article by force, it's just disruptive. --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:04, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

This is not an exemption under WP:3RR, you do not have a right to edit war except under very specific circumstances.Slatersteven (talk) 11:11, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I didn't violate 3RR. I reverted him once a day or so. --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:18, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

"Even without a 3RR violation, an administrator may still act if they believe a user's behavior constitutes edit warring, and any user may report edit warring with or without 3RR being breached." and edit war can in fact be slow, and take place over number of days. Again you do not have a right to edit war (even a slow one). Also you accused the IP of edit warring, and he appears to have not breached 3RR either (and indeed seems to have made only one or two edits a day).Slatersteven (talk) 11:30, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

What I am trying to tell you is that the pair of you were as bad as each other and this ANI is probably as very foolish idea. Neither of you are winning friends or influencing people (except negatively).Slatersteven (talk) 11:34, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't know what I'm "as bad as the other person" cause I'm a constructive editor who has invested tens or maybe even hundreds of hours of my time in that article. And then someone comes and says that he doesn't like some photo and he starts edit-warring over that.
I came here to do something today (here and in another language) and I had to spend almost two hours dealing with this. That's practically a whole day wasted. Now I'm actually thinking of going away for some prolonged time cause the editor made my few latest days here impossible. --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:46, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Wow. "who has invested tens or maybe even hundreds of hours of my time in that article. And then someone comes..." - if this isn't the reasoning behind the editors OWN behavior, constant twisting of the truth - making my concern about the violation of editing policy to something I simply "doesn't like" - then I don't know what it is. The editor admitted that both reverts without analyzing what it reverts and shows signs of OWN behavior. As for the counter-claim that I violated all the mentioned editing policies, while I'm arguing and editing in favour of editing policies, it's a perfect example of what kind of an editor we are dealing with, with lack of any signs of good faith and that's gaming the system. --78.1.87.210 (talk) 12:09, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Stop accusing me of violating every Wikipedia rule you can find. I don't "own" the article or even remotely anything like that. It was some years ago, I worked on the article years ago. There have probably been hundreds of edits by tens of different editors since then. --Moscow Connection (talk) 12:44, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I will not stop, because this is enough! I had enough of wasting my time with someone like you. You clearly show OWN behavior when it comes to these articles and specific content, you admitted that in your comments. It doesn't matter what you did years ago, don't twist the narrative again, we are dealing with you in the present time, here, now!--78.1.87.210 (talk) 12:54, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• Incredible to what the point the editor Moscow Conection is going to WP:GAME the system. He is now lying and accusing me of being an AKB48 fan, which I am not at all. Typical personal attack to defame other editor, also making strawman. If anything, I'm a B'z fan, but that doesn't have anything to do with the content. With also accusing me that "doesn't like" he is violating WP:GOODFAITH. First and foremost, I was not edit-warring over only some photos, yet about their rationale of inclusion according to editing policies (as cited above), as well other text in the articles. The editor is constantly ignoring and removing the Oricon surveys, made by the "holding company at the head of a Japanese corporate group that supplies statistics and information on music and the music industry in Japan" which neglects and at least gives balance to the unattributed results made by The Nikkei. The editor admitted he is making POINT reverts ("I didn't notice he added something about Oricon polls. If that's what he did, then, surely, the information can remain"). Again he admits he "wants to retain all the photos", which is against the rationale according to editing policy. These two groups are not extremely popular and did not explain anyhow with any reliable source to substantiate his personal opinion. According to "according to Oricon polls of 20,000 people for "Favorite Artist Ranking" which is held since 2004, they are not featured in Top 50 and Top 20 acts between 2013-2017, with the exception in 2013 when placed as 14th.[76][77][78][79][80]", that doesn't indicate anyhow "extreme" popularity and because of that he intentionally removes the Oricon polls. AKB48 has recorded sales and certifications in millions, seemingly the editor again doesn't want to accept that reality and pushes his own agenda. There is no provided source that the group is "respected by music critics", again personal opinion, while for "heavily talked about in the Japanese media" there's no comparison to whom for measuring the weight. The editor again confuses photo's quality with the rationale for NPOV inclusion. @Slatersteven: this is not a trivial matter, it's only trivial when is intentionally simplified by Moscow Connection. Here's an intentional violation of multiple Wikipedian editing policies and OWN behavior. --78.1.87.210 (talk) 12:04, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I assumed good faith, but you repeated your disriptive edits, you just repeated the same edit and didn't want to listen...
    I didn't make any WP:POINT reverts. I've already explained here: [153].
    Whay are you randomly accusing me of violating all the possible Wikipedia rules in existance? That's just strange. --Moscow Connection (talk) 12:33, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
    • The one whose, not listening, reading, and is constantly making POINT reverts is no other than you. You didn't explain anything, your explanation only proves that you made POINT reverts, you don't have a basic grasp about the things you're talking about! You didn't assume any good faith, your accusations and personal attacks prove that as well. I am accusing you because you're intentionally doing that. You constantly show evidence of misunderstanding and ignorance of editing policies, and when somebody comes and tells you that you simply twist the narrative that the person "doesn't like that and that". You are gaming the system here fooling around making idiots of everyone. The one whose wasting everyone's time is you with your defence of your promotional agenda of this idol group as if you're some crazy fan, even worse, part of their management or something. You both don't understand editing policy and don't let other editors edit the article and content. You DO NOT OWN THE CONTENT AND THE ARTICLES. Do you understand that?!--78.1.87.210 (talk) 12:49, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
• Interestingly, another editor, User talk:Anosola, who also extensively edited the article about the group Momoiro Clover Z, now reverted both articles ([154], [155]) and added additional The Nikkei survey for 2018. Even more interestingly, three years ago, in 2015 there already existed a dispute about the same thing (!). Look for User talk:Anosola#Do not edit my talk page and about your fan edits and User talk:Anosola#Music of Japan (as there also PROMOTION of the group at Music of Japan#Idol music section!) in which the editor Moscow Connection was also engaged (!). If this isn't evidence for intentional and long lasting pushing of a promotional agenda then I don't know what it is. It is suspicious to the extreme, this isn't and cannot be characterized as "trivial matter".--78.1.87.210 (talk) 12:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
• This is beyond crazy and insane. The editor Moscow Connection in his latest comment at Talk:Japanese idol#Momoiro Clover Z went so far in lying that dared to question where are these "Oricon surveys... I don't see anything like this in this article" - he doesn't see anything because he removed them ([156]). Even further, he said that "You are welcome to add some info about some Oricon surveys", but I already did and he removed it. Additionally, he dared to say that I "repeatedly removing the photo... that's all you do here in this article", what about the Oricon surveys and other? I am speechless that someone would intentionally fool people around to such a point of acting demented, doing everything, in an attempt to push the promotional agenda.--78.1.87.210 (talk) 13:09, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I didn't notice you (finally) added some prose. All the edits you have made in the last few days were marked as reverts, so I assumed it was the same edit you made earlier (this one). I've just put the sentence back. --Moscow Connection (talk) 14:15, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
    • You admitted again that you're doing POINT reverts without knowing what you're doing and reverting at all. It is unbelievable that you did not notice what you were reverting. This is or blatant lying or your not sane in your head. Thanks God you're becoming at least saner, but did you self-revert the same information in the Momoiro Clover Z article? No, you did not. Did you self-revert the information from the groups LEAD, as editor Curly Turkey explained you in the talk page discussion, no you did not.--31.217.24.109 (talk) 15:18, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
• I've just noticed the anonymous user removed the photo yet again: [157]. I will now post him his last warning, but I will wait with reverting till tomorrow. (Simply because I don't want to look bad.)
  I believe the article should be semiprotected. I've just spent some time rewriting the part he added (cause in his addition he questioned the success of one particular group instead on discussing the overall results of the polls), but then I decided to look at the article and what do I see? The photo is gone again, he has removed it! --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:28, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
  • The image was reverted because you were intentionally not editing the LEAD and probably would not have done it by yourself, so I did it ([158]) in proper order and attribution to The Nikkei as stated in the discussion. Just a reminder, remember tomorrow to edit Momoiro Clover Z article as well, if not I will.--31.217.24.109 (talk) 16:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Unambiguous conflicted, promotional editor; please indef

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Sprocvler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Pure WP:SPA for Marc Bell (entrepreneur); that page has been subject to a slew of undisclosed conflicted/paid editing. Each of those people has sought to downplay/erase Bell's involvement in porn, which is where he made his money, and instead add all sorts of shiny things. This person is exactly like those who came before, and edit-warring to boot:

• Diff
• diff
• diff

Non-credible responses at User talk:Sprocvler.

Please indef. Jytdog (talk) 12:46, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

96.5.246.66

• 96.5.246.66 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

A school IP currently blocked for one year started refactoring the notices here, here and here. Can any admin here revoke talk page access for this IP? Thanks. theinstantmatrix (talk) 14:01, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• Talk page semi-protected for ten days, since I do not want to leave the IP without route to appeal for a year, the semi-protection will accomplish the same thing for now. Courcelles (talk) 14:37, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Flood of IP vandalism at unblock requests

We're getting a flood of nonsense unblock requests from IPs, some (most?) of which are blocked proxies, and all obviously the same person - looks like quotes from Tolkein. See Category:Requests for unblock. We need some hands to the pump, please, and help from anyone good at identifying and range-checking proxies. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:57, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• When I get where I'm going in just a minute, I'll pitch in. For reference for those unaware, 120 requests last I looked in a category that normally has about 40. Katie^talk 16:19, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

A lot of these are already blocked by ProcseeBot. Talk page access needs to be revoked, and honestly there's no good reason why ProcseeBot shouldn't do that on its own. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:36, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

We do get occasional collateral from blocked proxies. Anyway, these are streaming in at around 10 per minute - filter 945 is now active. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 16:38, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Fair. The category seems to be clear of bogus IP requests now anyway. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:46, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I did a pretty good deletion sweep of this crap. Courcelles (talk) 16:48, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

There's a ton more left that were just blanked by others but they are all copyvios too. Praxidicae (talk) 16:50, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

It didn't even occur to me that these are copyvios. @Praxidicae: do you have a list? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:55, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Ivanvector I ran the first few through Earwig and then stopped because they were all coming back as cv. I think they're mostly deleted now but I just set a filter on my RC that'll watch the feed as they pop up. I've stopped tagging though at Jpgordon's request. It looks like these are what is left (they were blanked rather than deleted which is probably problematic given the copyvios.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:45.117.64.68
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:114.108.177.104
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:181.112.57.78
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:186.46.120.230
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:181.191.49.34
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:154.72.63.84
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:103.250.166.12
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:175.100.106.102

Praxidicae (talk) 17:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, they're all from Tolkien's works, which AFAIK are not public domain. I just didn't think of it. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:04, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I've deleted this list per G12 (G3 would also apply, under which I deleted a bunch of others) and have blocked the proxies that were not already blocked. @Boing! said Zebedee: I lengthened some of your blocks, just FYI. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:10, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Perfect, thanks. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:14, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• Ah, I blanked some without thinking about copyvio - I'll go back over them and check now. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:02, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• All the ones I blanked are deleted (or rev-deleted) now. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:09, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

JK, there's more!

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:1.10.186.156
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:80.80.172.26&action=history
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:182.50.64.148&oldid=870716866
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:202.138.127.66&action=history
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:190.152.19.62&oldid=870713015
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:118.174.220.154&oldid=870712433
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:1.10.186.156&oldid=870712397

Sorry for any dupes. Praxidicae (talk) 17:12, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Rangeblock request for edit warring and likely sockpuppetry

• 2a00:23c4:1594:aa00:2cbd:c3f6:b0d9:1c66 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Men's rights movement (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

An IP from the 2a00:23c4:1594:aa00::/64 range has been making edits to the lead of Men's rights movement repeatedly over the past couple days (e.g., [159], [160], [161], [162]). This user is likely Yoleo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who made the same edit here and possibly to Ms nj 0800 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Given the IP's Geolocation and target page, Mikemikev (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) might be the sockmaster.

Requesting a rangeblock or semi protection for page. Thank you!

EvergreenFir (talk) 18:24, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

•  Done MRM article semi'd, IP /64 rangeblocked. Black Kite (talk) 18:42, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/77.179.137.192

I noticed a large-number of edits coming from this German IP this morning (more than 500). The edits don't immediately seem problematic, mostly making the same mass-change to the tops of infoboxes ([163] for example), but they did seem way too rapid to not be coming from a bot. I queried the IP regarding the edits and they immediately stopped but did not reply to my query. I'm thinking this could be benign, but would like it checked to see if there is anything more than meets the eye. Thanks. Home Lander (talk) 19:02, 26 November 2018 (UTC)