Talk:Chelsea Manning: Difference between revisions
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:::::::[[User:Tariqabjotu|Tariqabjotu]], I once thought it was logical to change pronouns at the transition point, and I wrote another BLP that way. What I had not considered is that a transgendered person may have his or her anatomy changed to match their gender, but the person's gender never changed. Chelsea is a woman now and was one before she came out publicly. When she was a child, she was a girl who likely felt trapped in a boy's body. She did not at some point cease to be a boy / man and thus there is no point in here life where masculine pronouns were appropriate. As similar ssituation occurs with gays and lesbians, who may come out at some point in time but they did not become gay or lesbian at that time, they were already gay / lesbian and the only thing that changed is public declaration of their orientation or identity.<p>An argument I did not address earlier involves the suggestion of using feminine pronouns but with the article titled "Bradley Manning," partly because the suggestion strikes me as ridiculous. If we accept the use of feminine pronouns and respect Chelsea's declared gender, to not follow on and use her declared name is logically inconsistent. I recognise that a common name argument can be made (though as I noted, recent events have weakened it considerably) but it leads to an absurd situation that should be avoided by application of BLP or IAR. [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 15:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC) |
:::::::[[User:Tariqabjotu|Tariqabjotu]], I once thought it was logical to change pronouns at the transition point, and I wrote another BLP that way. What I had not considered is that a transgendered person may have his or her anatomy changed to match their gender, but the person's gender never changed. Chelsea is a woman now and was one before she came out publicly. When she was a child, she was a girl who likely felt trapped in a boy's body. She did not at some point cease to be a boy / man and thus there is no point in here life where masculine pronouns were appropriate. As similar ssituation occurs with gays and lesbians, who may come out at some point in time but they did not become gay or lesbian at that time, they were already gay / lesbian and the only thing that changed is public declaration of their orientation or identity.<p>An argument I did not address earlier involves the suggestion of using feminine pronouns but with the article titled "Bradley Manning," partly because the suggestion strikes me as ridiculous. If we accept the use of feminine pronouns and respect Chelsea's declared gender, to not follow on and use her declared name is logically inconsistent. I recognise that a common name argument can be made (though as I noted, recent events have weakened it considerably) but it leads to an absurd situation that should be avoided by application of BLP or IAR. [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 15:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC) |
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::The cases are not exactly the same but I think the comparison is apt since it can be interpreted as WP refuse to recognize Yusuf's new name because of Islamophobia just as not changing the title to Chelsea apparently can be interpreted as if WP refuses to recognize her gender identity. In the past the [[WP:COMMONNAME|rule]] has always been to chose the name for which someone is best known not the name a person should be addressed with today but apparently many do not understand that. Anyway, I think it might be best if the policy for how to choose BLP titles is changed so as to minimize offense in all cases. The choice of pronoun is a different matter and MOS:IDENTITY is probably a wise guideline, naturally we should mention that she is known as Chelsea now in the article thereby acknowledging her real gender. --[[User:Space simian|Space simian]] ([[User talk:Space simian|talk]]) 04:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC) |
::The cases are not exactly the same but I think the comparison is apt since it can be interpreted as WP refuse to recognize Yusuf's new name because of Islamophobia just as not changing the title to Chelsea apparently can be interpreted as if WP refuses to recognize her gender identity. In the past the [[WP:COMMONNAME|rule]] has always been to chose the name for which someone is best known not the name a person should be addressed with today but apparently many do not understand that. Anyway, I think it might be best if the policy for how to choose BLP titles is changed so as to minimize offense in all cases. The choice of pronoun is a different matter and MOS:IDENTITY is probably a wise guideline, naturally we should mention that she is known as Chelsea now in the article thereby acknowledging her real gender. --[[User:Space simian|Space simian]] ([[User talk:Space simian|talk]]) 04:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC) |
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:::[[User:Space simian|Space simian]], the refusal to recognise Yusuf's name change may well be motivated by Islamophobia in some cases. The difference between the two cases, though, is that Chelsea was a transgendered woman likely from birth and has felt female since long before her declaration of a new name. Cat Stevens circumstances changed, he adopted the Islamic faith, and he chose to become Yusuf Islam. Chelsea Manning did not choose to become a woman nor was there a time when she was a man, she always was a woman, she has just publicly confirmed / declared that she has suffered being trapped with an anatomy that does not reflect her gender. BLP and common humanity lead me to believing WP should respect that Chelsea is transgendered. Perhaps we should also respect Yusuf's religious conversion, but he was once comfortable as Cat Stevens whereas Chelsea's time as Bradley included hiding her gender and living with the feeling of a body that was wrong. I do not consider a religious conversion as analogous to a transgendered individual's transition, though I do recognise the superficial similarities of name changes in these two cases. Chelsea's experiences as Bradley are ones she is moving beyond and it is harmful to any transgendered individual to refuse to recognise his or her transition, and if we as the WP community declare that we can disregard Chelsea's transition then we are disrespecting all transgendered individuals. [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 15:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC) |
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::re ''"Some are simply looking at policy and practice in abstract terms, some truly believe that policy is more important than individual "preference", and I suspect many haven't considered transgendered editors here on WP"'' - I'm sorry, but this logic is a little silly. Criminals may have an individual "preference" not to be called "criminals", but we don't (and shouldn't) really give weight to their individual preference. What we call people should be decided as a matter of policy in as objective a manner as possible. And why should we consider the transgendered editors here on WP? Why should we pay special attention to trans BLPs because we have trans editors? Should we pay special attention to BLPs of tall people because we have a few tall editors? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 13:07, 29 August 2013 (UTC) |
::re ''"Some are simply looking at policy and practice in abstract terms, some truly believe that policy is more important than individual "preference", and I suspect many haven't considered transgendered editors here on WP"'' - I'm sorry, but this logic is a little silly. Criminals may have an individual "preference" not to be called "criminals", but we don't (and shouldn't) really give weight to their individual preference. What we call people should be decided as a matter of policy in as objective a manner as possible. And why should we consider the transgendered editors here on WP? Why should we pay special attention to trans BLPs because we have trans editors? Should we pay special attention to BLPs of tall people because we have a few tall editors? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 13:07, 29 August 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Move back''' to Bradley, as Chelsea is not (yet) commonly recognized outside of those following the story. The vast majority of sources refer to Bradley without reference to Chelsea. In time, months I guess, there may be a preponderance of reliable sources referring to Chelsea without reference to Bradley, but until then we should resist recentism and anticipation that this name will stick and be repeated in reliable sources. A moderate point is that the material about the subject is on the past, when he was known as Bradley, and little significant material is anticipated from her future. We should wait a few months, we should wait for the change to what is commonly recognized. --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 02:42, 29 August 2013 (UTC) |
*'''Move back''' to Bradley, as Chelsea is not (yet) commonly recognized outside of those following the story. The vast majority of sources refer to Bradley without reference to Chelsea. In time, months I guess, there may be a preponderance of reliable sources referring to Chelsea without reference to Bradley, but until then we should resist recentism and anticipation that this name will stick and be repeated in reliable sources. A moderate point is that the material about the subject is on the past, when he was known as Bradley, and little significant material is anticipated from her future. We should wait a few months, we should wait for the change to what is commonly recognized. --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 02:42, 29 August 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:57, 29 August 2013
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![]() | Note: A discussion what title this article should have is being held at Talk:Chelsea_Manning#Requested move. |
Q1: Why is this article titled Chelsea Manning?
A majority of sources now use the name "Chelsea" when referring to Manning which would make it the common name. There has been consensus among editors since October 2013 that this name should be used.
Q2: Why does the article refer to Manning as she?
MOS:IDENTITY says: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example 'man/woman', 'waiter/waitress', 'chairman/chairwoman') that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. [...] Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and ' [sic]' may be used where necessary)." Q3: Why is Manning in transgender categories?
The fact that Manning is transgender, and was a transgender inmate, a transgender soldier, etc, is notable and defining and has been discussed in multiple reliable sources (which are cited in the article). See Wikipedia:FAQ/Categorization for more information. Q4: I feel that Wikipedia is being biased against (or towards) my beliefs here, what should I do?
Wikipedia policy mandates that articles reflect the content of reliable sources and be written from a neutral point of view, avoiding advocating for any particular perspective. Minority ideas and opinions must not be given undue weight or promotion in Wikipedia articles. It is impossible for coverage of real-world controversies to leave everyone happy – ideas change and adapt over time, and partisan viewpoints are typically entrenched and unable to self-assess bias – but seeking and maintaining neutrality is an ongoing process. Concerns over bias can be addressed with bold editing following the WP:BRD cycle or by starting a civil and constructive discussion at this talk page to suggest article improvements. Q5: Why does Wikipedia include Chelsea Manning's deadname?
Wikipedia's guidelines say that we should include the birth name for a living transgender person in the lead sentence only if the person was notable under that name. This is the case for Chelsea Manning. By doing this, we ensure people who have only heard of Manning as her deadname can still find and recognize the article. |
Requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request is PENDING. bd2412 T 15:31, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Chelsea Manning → Bradley Manning – I am requesting that this page be moved back to its previous title of Bradley Manning so a thorough discussion can take place.
Wikipedia:Requested moves makes it clear that the "Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves" process should be used in the following circumstance:
- "Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested."
Additionally, Wikipedia:Article titles states the following:
- "Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made."
MOS:IDENTITY also states that a person should be referred to using his or her preferred name only when there is no dispute:
- "When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself [...]"
Note that my move request is not a comment on what the page should eventually be called (I personally believe Chelsea is the proper title), but rather a recognition of the short-term term need to follow policy.
My move request is also not a suggestion of which pronoun should be used. MOS:IDENTITY makes it clear that in this case we should use the "she" pronoun. Pronouns are a separate issue from the page title. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Administrative notes
- Administrative note: Since I have no interest in the outcome of this discussion, I have volunteered to shepherd it for the duration, and serve on a three-administrator panel that will close it after seven days (or after any extension of time beyond that sought by the community). I am going to umpire, and make sure things stay civil and the discussion stays on topic. That said, please do try to keep things civil and on topic. Cheers! bd2412 T 21:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I see that someone tried to edit the bot's page to force a link to the section title. There is a deficiency in the bot's regex pattern matching, in that it doesn't find the section title when text is entered above the RM template. I'm trying to fix that, but as a stopgap, I'm moving this text below the template. – Wbm1058 (talk) 19:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC) (bot operator)
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22 August 2013 (UTC)
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Consider a compromise; qualify the person as their original sex chronologically up to the point at which they assume/come out in a new gender role. The person was a male/female up until that point as a matter of fact.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.98.4.11 (talk • contribs)
1) Manning has not yet undergone gender reassignment (he is still male, and I have read and heard somewhere that reassignment therapy isn't available in army facilities) 2) He does not wish to be known as Chelsea in everything he does - as part of the statement he issued, it clearly states: "I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)." (my emphasis). This means that Manning is still male, and until he undergoes full reassignment therapy, and agrees to be referred to as a female IN EVERYTHING he does or pertaining to him, I think the renaming of the article to "Chelsea Manning" was unnecessary. --The Historian (talk) 20:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.178.34.11 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC) |
23 August 2013 (UTC)
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29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose – MoS:IDENTITY seems to be accepted as (correctly) mandating feminine pronouns, and I think that using a masculine article title based on COMMONNAME is logically inconsistent. Changes in RS like the NYT and AP also suppose the "Chelsea" title. For me, it is BLP that determines the title in this case, after invoking IAR if necessary, and not just for Manning's sake. As a transgendered individual, Chelsea has not suddenly become female. What has occured is her declaring herself publicly. She was not a man until she made her announcement, rather she has always been a woman who was unfortunate to be born into a body which does not match her gender, and she has suffered because of that for most of her life. That she now feels able to ask us (i.e. people in general) to recognise the woman she is, irrespective of anatomy, is a major step forward for her and one we should respect. Further, there are a lot of transgendered editors here at WP, some of whom are out (as Chelsea now is) and some who are not yet ready to admit publicly to their experience and to ask us to acknowledge the pain with which they've lived and respect their gender. This debate has including many comments that hugely disrepect the experiences of those editors and suggest that their coming out will not be met with support and compassion. The comparison to the Cat Stevens / Yusuf Islam, for example, is seen as apt as he went from Christian to Muslim and asked that an associated name change be respected, but it is not a comparable case. Chelsea has not made a decision to change genders, she has always been a woman and yet has been forced to live as a male for decades and suffered as a consequence. She was a woman when her name was Bradley, she had probably tried desperately to conform to societal expectations for years since childhood, and has ultimately accepted who she is and now declared herself openly and denying that would (per BLP) be a cruel act on our part - cruel towards Chelsea and brutally dismissive of the difficult and painful journey of all transgendered individuals. I am not saying that all supporters of the old article title are transphobic, they aren't. Some are simply looking at policy and practice in abstract terms, some truly believe that policy is more important than individual "preference", and I suspect many haven't considered transgendered editors here on WP. To me, the essence of BLP is to avoid harming living people and returning this article to its old title would be harmful to all transgendered individuals. It would be harmful to Chelsea, whether she knows about it or not, because it would be adding to the idea that refusing to recognise the true gender of a transgendered individual is acceptable. Invoke IAR if you must, but keep this article at the name that this individual has chosen to represent the gender she has always had. EdChem (talk) 00:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- You seem to focus primarily on which gender to use in the article, rather than which name to use in the title. Regardless, the idea that Manning's gender and name change announcement is retroactive to birth is an interpretation that is not universally held. That's certainly the case broadly and, apparently, is also the case even among the LGBT community: the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association, for example, says,
When writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender, NLGJA recommends using the name and gender the individual used publicly at that time
. -- tariqabjotu 01:27, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- You seem to focus primarily on which gender to use in the article, rather than which name to use in the title. Regardless, the idea that Manning's gender and name change announcement is retroactive to birth is an interpretation that is not universally held. That's certainly the case broadly and, apparently, is also the case even among the LGBT community: the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association, for example, says,
- Not quite: an email from a spokesperson says that. This contradicts, however, the NLGJA Stylebook Supplement (PDF warning), which says to "use the name and personal pronouns that are consistent with how the individual lives publicly" — note the use of present tense — and their statement issued in response to Manning, which says to "use the name and pronouns that someone prefers". Note that in neither case is this limited to say that it should be ignored in reference to historical events. MaxHarmony (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC) [link fixed MaxHarmony (talk) 05:36, 29 August 2013 (UTC)]
- Yes, but in neither case does it say that this should be applied in reference to historical events. It's ambiguous and can be interpreted either way. (Despite The Huffington Post eagerly jumping to using the female pronoun and Chelsea name, even one of their bloggers acknowledges that this ambiguity existed in LGBT organizations' guidelines.) However, with the clarification from their spokesperson, it seems the NLGJA did not mean for the gender identity change to be applied retroactively. -- tariqabjotu 02:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Where's the ambiguity? "Use the name and pronoun that someone prefers" is universal — if one uses another name or pronoun to refer to historical events, they're not following the style recommendation. Even if one interprets the NLGJA recommendation as ambiguous, and the email quoted in the Time article as authoritative, though, Wikipedia does not follow the NLGJA Stylebook Supplement, but its own stylebook which clearly states that it "applies in references to any phase of [the] person's life". The NLGJA Stylebook Supplement may be an argument for amending MOS:IDENTITY but it is not an argument for ignoring it. MaxHarmony (talk) 05:36, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Huh?
Use the name and pronoun that someone prefers
sounds, to me, like it's refering to present events. Same with "Use the address that someone prefers" (probably preferring right now, in regards to current events), "Use the religion that someone prefers" (probably preferring right now, in regards to current events), etc. There is nothing in that sentence that suggests retroactively. Sure, they could have meant use the current name and pronoun that someone prefers to refer to events since the beginning of time, but I don't know how you can argue that is what they meant when they released a statement to a reliable source clearly articulating the contrary. -- tariqabjotu 14:11, 29 August 2013 (UTC)- Tariqabjotu, I once thought it was logical to change pronouns at the transition point, and I wrote another BLP that way. What I had not considered is that a transgendered person may have his or her anatomy changed to match their gender, but the person's gender never changed. Chelsea is a woman now and was one before she came out publicly. When she was a child, she was a girl who likely felt trapped in a boy's body. She did not at some point cease to be a boy / man and thus there is no point in here life where masculine pronouns were appropriate. As similar ssituation occurs with gays and lesbians, who may come out at some point in time but they did not become gay or lesbian at that time, they were already gay / lesbian and the only thing that changed is public declaration of their orientation or identity.
An argument I did not address earlier involves the suggestion of using feminine pronouns but with the article titled "Bradley Manning," partly because the suggestion strikes me as ridiculous. If we accept the use of feminine pronouns and respect Chelsea's declared gender, to not follow on and use her declared name is logically inconsistent. I recognise that a common name argument can be made (though as I noted, recent events have weakened it considerably) but it leads to an absurd situation that should be avoided by application of BLP or IAR. EdChem (talk) 15:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Tariqabjotu, I once thought it was logical to change pronouns at the transition point, and I wrote another BLP that way. What I had not considered is that a transgendered person may have his or her anatomy changed to match their gender, but the person's gender never changed. Chelsea is a woman now and was one before she came out publicly. When she was a child, she was a girl who likely felt trapped in a boy's body. She did not at some point cease to be a boy / man and thus there is no point in here life where masculine pronouns were appropriate. As similar ssituation occurs with gays and lesbians, who may come out at some point in time but they did not become gay or lesbian at that time, they were already gay / lesbian and the only thing that changed is public declaration of their orientation or identity.
- Huh?
- Where's the ambiguity? "Use the name and pronoun that someone prefers" is universal — if one uses another name or pronoun to refer to historical events, they're not following the style recommendation. Even if one interprets the NLGJA recommendation as ambiguous, and the email quoted in the Time article as authoritative, though, Wikipedia does not follow the NLGJA Stylebook Supplement, but its own stylebook which clearly states that it "applies in references to any phase of [the] person's life". The NLGJA Stylebook Supplement may be an argument for amending MOS:IDENTITY but it is not an argument for ignoring it. MaxHarmony (talk) 05:36, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but in neither case does it say that this should be applied in reference to historical events. It's ambiguous and can be interpreted either way. (Despite The Huffington Post eagerly jumping to using the female pronoun and Chelsea name, even one of their bloggers acknowledges that this ambiguity existed in LGBT organizations' guidelines.) However, with the clarification from their spokesperson, it seems the NLGJA did not mean for the gender identity change to be applied retroactively. -- tariqabjotu 02:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not quite: an email from a spokesperson says that. This contradicts, however, the NLGJA Stylebook Supplement (PDF warning), which says to "use the name and personal pronouns that are consistent with how the individual lives publicly" — note the use of present tense — and their statement issued in response to Manning, which says to "use the name and pronouns that someone prefers". Note that in neither case is this limited to say that it should be ignored in reference to historical events. MaxHarmony (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC) [link fixed MaxHarmony (talk) 05:36, 29 August 2013 (UTC)]
- The cases are not exactly the same but I think the comparison is apt since it can be interpreted as WP refuse to recognize Yusuf's new name because of Islamophobia just as not changing the title to Chelsea apparently can be interpreted as if WP refuses to recognize her gender identity. In the past the rule has always been to chose the name for which someone is best known not the name a person should be addressed with today but apparently many do not understand that. Anyway, I think it might be best if the policy for how to choose BLP titles is changed so as to minimize offense in all cases. The choice of pronoun is a different matter and MOS:IDENTITY is probably a wise guideline, naturally we should mention that she is known as Chelsea now in the article thereby acknowledging her real gender. --Space simian (talk) 04:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- re "Some are simply looking at policy and practice in abstract terms, some truly believe that policy is more important than individual "preference", and I suspect many haven't considered transgendered editors here on WP" - I'm sorry, but this logic is a little silly. Criminals may have an individual "preference" not to be called "criminals", but we don't (and shouldn't) really give weight to their individual preference. What we call people should be decided as a matter of policy in as objective a manner as possible. And why should we consider the transgendered editors here on WP? Why should we pay special attention to trans BLPs because we have trans editors? Should we pay special attention to BLPs of tall people because we have a few tall editors? NickCT (talk) 13:07, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Move back to Bradley, as Chelsea is not (yet) commonly recognized outside of those following the story. The vast majority of sources refer to Bradley without reference to Chelsea. In time, months I guess, there may be a preponderance of reliable sources referring to Chelsea without reference to Bradley, but until then we should resist recentism and anticipation that this name will stick and be repeated in reliable sources. A moderate point is that the material about the subject is on the past, when he was known as Bradley, and little significant material is anticipated from her future. We should wait a few months, we should wait for the change to what is commonly recognized. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:42, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose I apologise for the length of this comment, but this is a complex and important issue and many arguments have been raised.
- Many supporters of the proposed move have justified it on the basis that Bradley is his legal name and that he is biologically male. While I trust these arguments will be ignored by the closers as having no basis in policy, I think it is worth explaining why they are irrelevant since they continue to be raised. As others have pointed out, we go by common name not legal name and we would have to change a lot of article titles if we decided to change that (I will not enter into the dispute over whether the announcement suffices to legally change his name, though I note that our article on name changes would tend to support those who are that it does). As for the biological argument (and ignoring the confusions between biological sex and gender), again it is irrelevant. There is nothing stopping a man from changing his name to one that is usually female.
- The other irrelevant argument that has been raised is that it was moved improperly. We are holding a very large and contentious requested move discussion at the moment where all the arguments about what the title should be can be raised and considered. Since all the substantive arguments can be discussed here, it would be pointless to move it back on procedural grounds. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. If we did move it back based on procedural failings then we would inevitably have to almost immediately hold another RM discussion to deal with the substantive issue of what the article should be called. I doubt anyone wants another week of this sort of mess and argument. There are more productive (and pleasant) things we could be doing.
- That brings us to WP:COMMONNAME. I would argue that reliable sources published since Manning’s announcement are split and (as others have pointed out, sources from before the name change are hardly relevant). They are also trending in favour of Chelsea, and there is no point in moving it to Bradley if we are just going to move it back to Chelsea in a couple of weeks as usage evolves (as I said above, does anyone really want to have another week of this?). The AP and the New York Times have announced that they have decided to use Chelsea. Other people have provided more comprehensive lists of sources using Chelsea, so it is unnecessary for me to further lengthen this comment by doing so. Since reliable sources are split, we should look to other policy-based arguments.
- WP:IDENTITY is applicable here and supports using Chelsea. It states: “When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself, and the most common terms for a group will be those that the group most commonly uses for itself. Wikipedia should use them too.” Some people have argued that this doesn’t apply because there is a dispute over whether to use Chelsea or Bradley. But I think it is clear in context that the reference to a “dispute” does not mean a dispute on Wikipedia; rather it means a dispute regarding what is subsequently referred to in the sentence – “the term ... [a] person uses for himself or herself...”
- But ultimately I believe BLP is what dictates that we must use Chelsea. There have been a lot of complaints that the BLP argument has not been adequately explained. I think this is because the argument is not easy to articulate, though nonetheless valid. Also many people seem to be dismissing it on the basis that the statement is not libellous or otherwise legally problematic. But this ignores the fact that the BLP policy is not just concerned with protecting Wikipedia from legal liability. The obligations we have placed on ourselves go beyond what would be required by the law. Underlying the BLP policy is a recognition of the respect and care we owe people when writing about them, and the harm – including distress – that can be caused when we don’t do so in a way that reflects that respect and care. The BLP policy states in the introduction that material relating to a living person “requires a high degree of sensitivity...” Using a name in the title of the article that its subject has expressly asked not be used because it does not accord with her expressed gender identity is not according that “high degree of sensitivity” required for BLPs. People have drawn analogies with other people whose preferred names are not used, but given the additional sensitivity surrounding gender identity I don't think they are persuasive. Neljack (talk) 05:12, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Why hasn't there been "recognition of the respect and care we owe" corporations and governments "when writing about them, and the harm... that can be caused...."? The WP:Neutral Point of View is "a fundamental principle of Wikipedia" and WP:BLP is not. Why is it that we have another case here of the BLP policy being cited to argue for a decision that would further the agenda of interest groups calling for a more liberal take on sexual identity but it's never cited to argue for a decision that would further an agenda that is opposed to civil liberties? Is it illegitimate to be a political opponent of the civil liberties agenda?--Brian Dell (talk) 06:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Brian, I suggest you have another look at WP:BLP, you'll find the box at the top says BLP is policy. Further, I strongly encourage you not to try and argue that BLP is readily discarded based on other policy because BLP has a very high level of respect and support (including Foundation policy). Even the wheel-warring policy for admins includes a BLP exception, ArbCom have traditionally interpretted it broadly and it applies in all spaces and to all living people. Editing that is inconsistent with BLP typically results in strong responses, and for good reason. As for corporations and governments, they are not living individuals and so do not receive BLP protections, just as the dead are not accorded such protection. EdChem (talk) 15:01, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Why hasn't there been "recognition of the respect and care we owe" corporations and governments "when writing about them, and the harm... that can be caused...."? The WP:Neutral Point of View is "a fundamental principle of Wikipedia" and WP:BLP is not. Why is it that we have another case here of the BLP policy being cited to argue for a decision that would further the agenda of interest groups calling for a more liberal take on sexual identity but it's never cited to argue for a decision that would further an agenda that is opposed to civil liberties? Is it illegitimate to be a political opponent of the civil liberties agenda?--Brian Dell (talk) 06:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Withdraw my initial comment and Oppose: I can see the trend of sources towards Chelsea in the time since I wrote this comment, and I am beginning to understand the WP:BLP argument for keeping the article at Chelsea (thanks to Neljack above for putting it succinctly where a few editors have failed to do so). I also believe that, at this stage and with the media interest around this article it would be detrimental to the project to move back to Bradley. However, I do think in the light of this situation BLP and WP:COMMONNAME should be made much more specific with regards the transgender cases, which have an exceptional level of sensitivity attached to them. I also strongly believe that this article should have been at Bradley Manning during the discussion; I can't see how it being at Chelsea in the meantime is anything other than some editors treating this as a clear-cut situation with a blatant right and wrong side, when the length and detail of this discussion shows that it is quite clearly anything but. U-Mos (talk) 09:19, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- @U-Mos - re " trend of sources towards Chelsea in the time since I wrote this comment, " - I think you've identified a key point there. The sources have significantly changed in the past 7 days. The WP:COMMONNAME argument for Bradley is weaker now (if not non-existent). I don't see why we should change WP:COMMONNAME though. I think we can say simply that WP:COMMONAME pointed strongly towards "Bradley" 7 days ago. Now it's a little more ambiguous, and at some point in the future, it may point clearly to Chelsea. NickCT (talk) 13:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment All the MOS:IDENTITY !votes need to be discounted since it is only a guideline whereas WP:COMMONNAME is a policy. If there is any conflict between the two, policies always trump guidelines. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:15, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- And all the WP:COMMONNAME !votes need to be discounted because of the policy aptly called Ignore all rules. If a rule prevents us from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, we should ignore it. In this case (as well as in many others), COMMONNAME doesn't help. Surtsicna (talk) 12:30, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's more likely that support votes which relied on COMMONNAME alone will be discounted, at least if they were made before the NPR / AP / NYT switch. The closing admins will make their own decisions, but I doubt IDENTITY votes will be discounted. As others have argued, IDENTITY and COMMONNAME can work together, with the more specific guidline showing that in this case Chelsea is the obvious choice. FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:41, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Votes can't be discounted, as the votes are not counted to begin with. !votes mean "not-vote", and you can't discount non-vote votes from a non-counting counting. The survey is only here to structure the discussion, and to give insight into where people stand on the issue. Using it, we hopefully avoid accidentally missing any important opinion. Belorn (talk) 12:55, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, BLP and factual accuracy trump commonname. MOS:IDENTITY needs to be followed and BLP determines that we do not cause harm to people or treat them in a grossly offensive, disrespectful and hurtful way. MOS:IDENTITY explains how BLP needs to be interpreted in the specific case of transgendered people. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:57, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: I trust the closers will take into consideration the fact that a significant number of RS (such as the New York Times and AP) have adopted the name change in the course of this debate, making early "support" comments based on COMMONNAME significantly less valid, regardless of the evident BLP considerations and factual accuracy considerations (using a factually wrong name for a person) that come into play that would trump any COMMONNAME argument in any event. I also trust no weight will be given to comments that are not policy based, such "(s)he is not biologically female", "she hasn't underwent surgery/legal name change/etc.", "...if I proclaimed myself to be a dog..." or other such nonsense. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:52, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, the AP and the New York Times released new style guidelines regarding this early this week. But what makes you think that all those people who referenced COMMONNAME where doing so based solely these two sources? Reuters, the BBC, The Independent, and CBS News (even though this was written by the AP, strangely) all seem to still prefer the name "Bradley Manning". And you'll see The New York Times has not updated its topic page yet about Manning with the new name. -- tariqabjotu 14:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- It should also be mentioned that in addition to the sources that are still using the name Bradley because that is the commonly recognizable name, there are also sources, such as National Review, that are explicitly endorsing the use of the name Bradley as a matter of their policy. --PiMaster3 talk 15:05, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Mr Williamson stated on Twitter that this is the "trolliest op-ed yet". I would suggest not basing decisions on the statements of an admitted troll. MaxHarmony (talk) 15:40, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- It should also be mentioned that in addition to the sources that are still using the name Bradley because that is the commonly recognizable name, there are also sources, such as National Review, that are explicitly endorsing the use of the name Bradley as a matter of their policy. --PiMaster3 talk 15:05, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: I trust the closers will take into consideration the fact that a significant number of RS have not adopted the name change in the course of this debate, making early "support" comments based on COMMONNAME valid, regardless of the lack of any agreement as to the facts. I also trust no weight will be given to comments that are not policy based, such as "it makes people feel bad to be called by the wrong name" or "advocacy organisation <x> says we have to do it this way" or other such nonsense. CombatWombat42 (talk) 14:44, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support move back to Bradley Manning. Though I think MOS:IDENTITY is less that perfect, it is important to have a consistent policy especially in cases where the subject had noteworthy history before they publicly changed their gender identity. That is not what I take issue with. Chelsea didn't announce her new name/gender identity until her trial as Bradley was over, and a preponderance of news sources that people will be familiar with will identify her as Bradley manning. As for claims of logical inconsistency, a simple statement in the lede should immediately address this. In a month or two, I imagine the weight of sources referring to Chelsea Manning will use that name and moving it will be appropriate. But you ask me today, WP:COMMONNAME suggests that Bradley Manning is the correct title for the article. - Sangrolu (talk) 14:48, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Discussion
Wikipedia's actual clients
Wikipedia's actual clients -- you know, general readers not familiar wp-this and wp-that -- are going to expect to find an article on the name that's been in the news for months. During the notable part of the person's life they were know as Bradley so that's what the article should be titled. NE Ent 01:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's actual clients are going to find this article no matter which title they search on, because the redirect from her former name means they'll still get here anyway. Bearcat (talk) 04:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're right. However it's still interesting to look at what people are searching for: Bradley Manning vs Chelsea Manning Even with the front page ITN linking to Chelsea Manning, people are still using the Bradley search term more often by a significant magnitude. It might be something to look into a bit - perhaps it might represent what the majority still currently believe his name is? Before we make crystal ball predictions on whether this current trend may change, keep in mind that we make decisions based on the present, and not for the future. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 08:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Another look at the view counts you linked to shows that on 27 Aug the counts were Chelsea:25542 versus Bradley:6166. On 26 Aug it was Chelsea 28210, Bradley 7220. On 25 Aug it was Chelsea 24774, Bradley 9397. Far more Wikipedia readers are going to the Chelsea target than to the Bradley target, since 22 Aug when "Bradley" was more frequently viewed. It is not even close as time passes. Edison (talk) 23:50, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because there was a prominent link to Chelsea on the main page. Hot Stop talk-contribs 02:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Indeed. You'll notice on August 28, the Chelsea figures dropped substantially; now, Chelsea vs. Bradley is 8652 vs. 3881. And because Bradley is a redirect to Chelsea, it's actually 4771 vs. 3881. Not that drastic. There are still a number of factors involved: which title is linked from other articles, the media attention, editors involved here editing the article (even this talk page got more than 2000 [non-unique] views), etc. There's a reason the Stats FAQ says not to base any important decisions on the numbers there. -- tariqabjotu 03:16, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because there was a prominent link to Chelsea on the main page. Hot Stop talk-contribs 02:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Another look at the view counts you linked to shows that on 27 Aug the counts were Chelsea:25542 versus Bradley:6166. On 26 Aug it was Chelsea 28210, Bradley 7220. On 25 Aug it was Chelsea 24774, Bradley 9397. Far more Wikipedia readers are going to the Chelsea target than to the Bradley target, since 22 Aug when "Bradley" was more frequently viewed. It is not even close as time passes. Edison (talk) 23:50, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're right. However it's still interesting to look at what people are searching for: Bradley Manning vs Chelsea Manning Even with the front page ITN linking to Chelsea Manning, people are still using the Bradley search term more often by a significant magnitude. It might be something to look into a bit - perhaps it might represent what the majority still currently believe his name is? Before we make crystal ball predictions on whether this current trend may change, keep in mind that we make decisions based on the present, and not for the future. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 08:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Redirects: Cheap, easy, free. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- The parallel I gave was Sears Tower. Wikipedia wasn't in business when it was renamed, but I doubt it would wait long to title the article according to the new official product placement. I think it is acceptable to retitle the article according to an official new name, even though most people aren't using that yet. Even though I favor using "he" and "Bradley" in descriptions of the earlier events. Wnt (talk) 22:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Wnt: Sears Tower was only renamed in 2009, so Wikipedia was most definitely in business. There was forewarning, though, that the rename was happening; the new name was announced in March 2009, but not implemented until July 2009. But for the most part, you're right; for reasons unknown, when buildings (especially stadiums, my goodness) get new sponsorships, renames seem to happen quite quickly. Then again, sources tend to adapt immediately as well (almost like it's illegal to call the stadium by that previous name). And it's debatable whether Chelsea Manning is officially the subject's new name much in the way Willis Tower is official the new name of the tallest building in Chicago. -- tariqabjotu 22:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- The parallel I gave was Sears Tower. Wikipedia wasn't in business when it was renamed, but I doubt it would wait long to title the article according to the new official product placement. I think it is acceptable to retitle the article according to an official new name, even though most people aren't using that yet. Even though I favor using "he" and "Bradley" in descriptions of the earlier events. Wnt (talk) 22:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is probably what you are looking for: [5]. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think you mean this: [6] --Yetisyny (talk) 19:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Good to see a section dedicated to the reader perspective. With the collapse of the policy based case for using her birthname, all that remains is an IAR argument that doing so helps our readers. This does not seem to stand up to scrutiny. As noted above, readers searching on the old name will still arrive at this article. Any confusion will likely be resolved by the first few words of the lede: "Chelsea E. Manning (born Bradley Edward Manning" It seems rather patronising to suggest using Chelsea’s correct name might leave our readers in lasting confusion. Using her correct name is both encyclopaedic and educational.
As this is such a frequently viewed article, a more relevant dimension is perhaps the emotional distress it would cause if we reverted to her birthname, thus legitimising what some see as harassment. Granted, many LGBT folks are totally secure in their sexuality and won't care either way, but there are still those who suffer discrimination. Only a few weeks ago, a young woman was murdered after suffering from transphobia. Wikipedia should not be supporting the social conditions that give rise to this sort of thing. Granted, some conservative readers are likely to feel annoyed by the current title. Their feelings do matter. But no one takes their own life out of anti-PC rage.. It's only by using the birthname that we'd cause real distress to a significant subsection of our readership. Whether one is guided by the light of Christian teachings, the golden rule or simple common decency, a broad understanding of the reader perspective seems to demand we keep the current title. FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:41, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
MOS:IDENTITY
For all those citing MOS:IDENTITY, that guideline relates to the content of the article not the the title of the article. This discussion is a move discussion. It relates solely to the title of the article, NOT the content of the article. The relevant policy page for this discussion is Wikipedia:Article titles.
I cannot even begin to imagine why people are citing WP:BLP. There are no BLP concerns affecting this discussion from what I can see.
--RA (✍) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The general principle of BLP is that we have to have respect for individuals when we're smearing their names across the internet. I think it's misapplied here since we're confusing the reader to aggressively support the person's decisions, and that goes well beyond the dispassionate but polite concern expected for a Wikipedia article. Even if the policy says nothing specifically, the sense of the policy is correctly applied when being careful about how we talk about living people. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 19:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. I think it's being applied correctly--even if Octamom is the most common name, we don't have an article by that name for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hobit, we have no need to look to BLP. Policy on article titles like Octomom is given in Wikipedia:Article titles (explicitly in that case). A title like "Bradley Manning" is not akin to "Octomom". Yesterday, there was no ambiguity about this person's name - or any sense that it may have carried offence. It was simply "Bradley Manning". Today, they asked to be called something else. We can mention that but we don't have to rename the article because of it. --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. I think it's being applied correctly--even if Octamom is the most common name, we don't have an article by that name for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- *.92, you raise a good point. I find something upsetting in the way the article was so aggressively altered and moved on the back of Manning's statement. It doesn't matter if the article is a little behind the latest tattle. We should be more sensitive before jumping and move with a greater degree of care on BLPs (where there is no urgent need for modification). --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- He is one of more than 6,000,000,000 people, he is just as special as everyone else. If he wanted to change his name to 'Barak Obama' we would not be having this discussion, the page would remain his legal name of Bradley Manning. VictusB (talk) 23:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Define what you mean by "respect". It certainly doesn't, even as a general principle, mean that articles should only contain information that the living person would choose to have in the article. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Referring to a trans woman using male-gendered names and and pronouns, including the title of the article, is deeply offensive and harmful. BLP asks us to consider harm to living subjects. I can think of few things more harmful to a subject than disrespecting their identification on deeply personal characteristics like gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. --Trystan (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Emotional distress on the part of the subject is trumped by Wikipedia's mission to provide information in the easiest way possible to the largest number of people. The vast majority of the sources for the article refer to the subject as Bradley Manning, the vast majority of the pages that link to this article use the name Bradley Manning, and the vast majority of users of Wikipedia who look for this article know the person as Bradley Manning. Given that this is the person's current legal name and is not an inherently derogatory name, Manning's feelings on the matter are not enough to justify changing the name to Chelsea Manning. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is profoundly degrading to transgender persons to refer to them using gender-inappropriate names and pronouns when they have expressed a clear preference to be addressed according to their gender identity. The harm from disrespecting gender identity is profund and can not be reduced to mere hurt feelings.--Trystan (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, it is profoundly disrespectful. I think that brings WP:BLP into this. Hobit (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is profoundly degrading to transgender persons to refer to them using gender-inappropriate names and pronouns when they have expressed a clear preference to be addressed according to their gender identity. The harm from disrespecting gender identity is profund and can not be reduced to mere hurt feelings.--Trystan (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Emotional distress on the part of the subject is trumped by Wikipedia's mission to provide information in the easiest way possible to the largest number of people. The vast majority of the sources for the article refer to the subject as Bradley Manning, the vast majority of the pages that link to this article use the name Bradley Manning, and the vast majority of users of Wikipedia who look for this article know the person as Bradley Manning. Given that this is the person's current legal name and is not an inherently derogatory name, Manning's feelings on the matter are not enough to justify changing the name to Chelsea Manning. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Referring to a trans woman using male-gendered names and and pronouns, including the title of the article, is deeply offensive and harmful. BLP asks us to consider harm to living subjects. I can think of few things more harmful to a subject than disrespecting their identification on deeply personal characteristics like gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. --Trystan (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- One would expect the title of an article to be consistent of its contents. Wikipedia:Article titles also states that the naming guidelines should be used be interpreted in conjunction with other policies Vexorian (talk) 03:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline and not policy, policies outweigh guidelines on wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no policy on Wikipedia which contains anything that would overrule MOS:IDENTITY. And guidelines are just as binding as policies in the absence of a compelling reason to make an exception. In fact, Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is very specific on this point: Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. The only difference between the two is that guidelines may have valid exceptions in some circumstances — but unless there's a clear consensus that the case at hand is a valid exception, guidelines do still have to be followed every bit as much as policies do. Bearcat (talk) 00:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Policies such as WP:NOTABILITY a core Wikipedia policy (person notable for being Bradley manning) and WP:COMMONNAME Bradley being used more do outweigh it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:N does not require an article to always remain at the title that a topic first became notable under; it just speaks to whether a topic should be included or excluded and has no bearing on what an article's title should or shouldn't be, or whether you can or can't move an article about a topic whose name changes after notability has already been established. And WP:COMMONNAME also explicitly says that there are numerous valid reasons why an article can be located at something other than the topic's "most common name". We title North American radio and television stations' articles with their call signs rather than their on-air brand names, for instance, because even though the on-air brand names are almost certainly more commonly known, they're rarely or never unique. We title most animal and plant species with their scientific (i.e. Latin) names rather than their common ones. We frequently choose alternate titles as a way to avoid spelling disputes between American and British English. And feel free to fill yourself in on how we dealt with the Derry vs. Londonderry and Dokdo vs. Takeshima "common name" disputes, too. COMMONNAME is simply not an invariable rule. So nope, neither of those policies is in conflict with MOS:IDENTITY at all. Bearcat (talk) 01:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Policies such as WP:NOTABILITY a core Wikipedia policy (person notable for being Bradley manning) and WP:COMMONNAME Bradley being used more do outweigh it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is no policy on Wikipedia which contains anything that would overrule MOS:IDENTITY. And guidelines are just as binding as policies in the absence of a compelling reason to make an exception. In fact, Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is very specific on this point: Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. The only difference between the two is that guidelines may have valid exceptions in some circumstances — but unless there's a clear consensus that the case at hand is a valid exception, guidelines do still have to be followed every bit as much as policies do. Bearcat (talk) 00:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline and not policy, policies outweigh guidelines on wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: I just noticed that Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Article titles includes the following phrase:
The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title.
- This would mean that MOS:IDENTITY applies to the article title. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- The MOS does indeed apply to the styling of all parts of the article, including the title. What it doesn't apply to is the substance of the title, that's what the naming policy is for. That being said, I think the more relevant point is that the MOS indisputably requires the article to use only feminine pronouns, and doing so is incongruent with an article title of "Bradley". (I also personally think more generally that there are other reasons, not relating to the MOS specifically, that the article should be under "Chelsea", but that's a different discussion.) AgnosticAphid talk 19:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it can be safely said that there is ten times more input on this particular article than there has EVER been to MOS:IDENTITY. The MOS can be changed; it should not be used as weight in this decision... and I won't even get into the fact that it was crafted by the LGBT wikiproject and obviously reflects their viewpoint. - Floydian τ ¢ 15:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- To defend the MOS from your untoward suggestion – which you did make – that it somehow reflects only the interests of a biased cabal, I'd like to point out that every style manual that I've seen, if not every style guide that addresses the use of pronouns for transgender individuals, requires the use of a pronoun corresponding with the subject's chosen identity. The MOS is based on other style guides, not the whims of editors as informed by their views on matters of identity politics. You should go to the MOS talk page if you want to change the MOS. Until it does change, this article must use feminine pronouns and the extent to which that requirement affects the choice of title is a legitimate question. AgnosticAphid talk 15:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- But surely that would be the cart driving the horse. The pronoun question is separate to the article name question, and there is no reason to suppose that one is more important than the other - though it's the latter that's receiving all the attention right now. I agree with the OP on this thread - MOS:IDENTITY does not answer the article title question. There's no reason why we can't call the article "Bradley Manning" and then have "she" throughout. Having said that, though, I think the article name implies a change of the lead, as well as a change of the infobox heading. StAnselm (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- By the way, some baby name websites (e.g. [7]) list Bradley was both a boys' and girls' name. I can't find any notable women of this name, though I found this discussion forum which shows that some girls do have the name. So, Manning could have come out as a woman and kept the name Bradley. Now, it may be significant that she chose not to. I wonder if all transgender people like to change their name when they come out? I asked the question at Talk:Transgender#Names? but I haven't got an answer. 05:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps nobody would really consider this a notable woman, but I just remembered and wanted to note that there was a female character in this show I loved when I was a kid, Hey Dude, named Bradley! I am kind of inclined to agree with you overall that the name question is separate from the pronoun question, though – even if they are probably informed by similar considerations – having considered it a bit more. AgnosticAphid talk 03:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- It even says that they are not the same, article titles and pronouns: "Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article." - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- To be fair, though, there is some ambiguity in the way it's written, for the reasons discussed here. What is the meaning of the second sentence, exactly – the "if there is no dispute" qualification is exceedingly odd.AgnosticAphid talk 04:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- It even says that they are not the same, article titles and pronouns: "Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article." - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps nobody would really consider this a notable woman, but I just remembered and wanted to note that there was a female character in this show I loved when I was a kid, Hey Dude, named Bradley! I am kind of inclined to agree with you overall that the name question is separate from the pronoun question, though – even if they are probably informed by similar considerations – having considered it a bit more. AgnosticAphid talk 03:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- By the way, some baby name websites (e.g. [7]) list Bradley was both a boys' and girls' name. I can't find any notable women of this name, though I found this discussion forum which shows that some girls do have the name. So, Manning could have come out as a woman and kept the name Bradley. Now, it may be significant that she chose not to. I wonder if all transgender people like to change their name when they come out? I asked the question at Talk:Transgender#Names? but I haven't got an answer. 05:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- But surely that would be the cart driving the horse. The pronoun question is separate to the article name question, and there is no reason to suppose that one is more important than the other - though it's the latter that's receiving all the attention right now. I agree with the OP on this thread - MOS:IDENTITY does not answer the article title question. There's no reason why we can't call the article "Bradley Manning" and then have "she" throughout. Having said that, though, I think the article name implies a change of the lead, as well as a change of the infobox heading. StAnselm (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the close
Just noting here that I've asked on WP:AN/RFC [8] and WP:AN/I [9] for an admin to close this who has had no prior involvement with the page. Hopefully that will make the close as uncontentious as possible. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Gender identity
Is Bradley legally a female or male? In the article United States v. Manning Bradley prefers to be known as a female, Chelsea Manning, so it seems Bradley is a male, but like to be refered to as a female, so should we refer to Bradley as a male of female in this and the United States v. Manning? Casey.Grim85 (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Bradley's legal status is actually irrelevant. The style guide states Wikipedia should refer to Manning using female pronouns. —me_and 17:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- To be clear, there is debate as to what "The style guide" says, and how it applies, you should go read the debate yourself if you are truly interested. Many people are arguing that MOS:IDENTITY dosn't really apply in this case. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Okay I was just wondering it all! Casey.Grim85 18:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is it logical to refer to a person who is currently biologically male as "she", regardless of how they perceive themselves? Would this same rule apply to transvestites, who are generally referred to using the pronoun "he"? I think it would make more sense to use the term "he" until the time that he actually undergoes surgical procedures to make him a female; only after that point will it make sense to use the term "she". (Cf. Wendy Carlos, one of the more famous examples of gender-reassigned persons.) Otherwise, it's just confusing to the average reader at present. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes. There are plenty of trans-women who still have male sexual organs, but consider themselves "women". Gender != biology. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, there is no single identifier that makes a "biological female". Whatever identifier you use will exclude many women and include many men (and the opposite for "biological male"). Biology is not perfect. --Dee Earley (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is it logical to refer to a person who is currently biologically male as "she", regardless of how they perceive themselves? Would this same rule apply to transvestites, who are generally referred to using the pronoun "he"? I think it would make more sense to use the term "he" until the time that he actually undergoes surgical procedures to make him a female; only after that point will it make sense to use the term "she". (Cf. Wendy Carlos, one of the more famous examples of gender-reassigned persons.) Otherwise, it's just confusing to the average reader at present. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- He will serve his sentence in United States Disciplinary Barracks, which is a male prison. So in the eyes of the law he is definitely a man. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not the United States, and we don't have to describe people only in terms of their relation to US law. A trans person does not detransition just because they move to a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision for transition. Legal recognition, like surgery, is typically quite a late stage of transition. One must typically identify and live as one's chosen gender for some time before either becomes available. And let's not lose sight of the fact that Manning's access to female socialization, and to HRT, are artificially restricted by her status as a US federal prisoner. She's done about the only thing she currently can to signal to the world that this is her identity. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't believe Wikipedia would dissolve a gay marriage just because the couple moved to "a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision" but I believe there would still be the expectation that if there was a gay marriage then there had to have been a prior legally recognized marriage SOMEWHERE. If Manning is legally recognized as female in Canada that would likely satisfy most people currently objecting. I believe you are confusing is and ought with respect to Manning's confinement. Whatever ought to be the case, if it IS the case that there not only is not but cannot be any legal recognition this is relevant to whether the dispute between the subject and his society as to how he or she should be perceived should be resolved in the favour of the subject.--Brian Dell (talk) 10:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- The fact of imprisonment in that institution doesn't really prove anything. You can picture that women could be put there at any time due to overcrowding or through some bureaucratic snafu. And what is transsexuality more than the world's most confusing bureaucratic snafu? Wnt (talk) 22:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning's gender is female. She has clearly stated this. Her biological sex does not reflect her gender, but that does not change the fact that her gender is female. The pronouns we use should reflect gender, not sex; so yes, it does make sense to refer to Manning as "she". 86.16.146.123 (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning is male. He might decide that he "identifies with" a oblique Vulcan transhuman tomale, but that doesn't make it true. Kotowing to the latest politically correct fad impresses very few and does little for wikipedias already shaky credibility.
- And throwing in your biased opinion without even signing your name does absolutely nothing for your credibility whatsoever. As such, we're quite in our rights to ignore your post completely until you learn how to use the signature. Like so: Blackbird_4 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Would any female allow Manning to use the women’s locker room at the local swimming pool, fitness centre, or public toilet? I doubt any typical female would be comfortable sharing facilities with Manning, would they? If females don’t accept Manning as female, then the name change is absurd. If women don't accept Manning as female nor let "her" use/share their facilities, then end of story. --BrianJ34 (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Um, no. That's not how gender identity works. California just passed a law allowing transgender children to choose which restroom they use in public schools. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah I think my young brother switched his gender a few times... then he grew up. What a stupid premise. "I'm a girl today. Tomorrow I'm gonna be a dinosaur."
- Um, no. That's not how gender identity works. California just passed a law allowing transgender children to choose which restroom they use in public schools. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Would any female allow Manning to use the women’s locker room at the local swimming pool, fitness centre, or public toilet? I doubt any typical female would be comfortable sharing facilities with Manning, would they? If females don’t accept Manning as female, then the name change is absurd. If women don't accept Manning as female nor let "her" use/share their facilities, then end of story. --BrianJ34 (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
So, I can just choose my gender by making a public statement? "Hey everybody, I'm female today!" What if Manning decided to issue a public statement every day at sunrise, toggling his gender each time. Would we have to retitle the article and change all the pronouns on a daily basis? It seems to me that determining someone's gender by asking them is not terribly scientific. Let's put the question this way: If we got a panel of physicians or biologists to examine Manning, would they conclude that he is male or female? ‑Scottywong| spout _ 14:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think they'd decline the request as stupid. Formerip (talk) 14:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- As and when Manning does toggle her gender in that way we can have that discussion; at the moment I don't think we need to consider that. FormerIP, there have been numerous levelheaded requests for people to keep hold of their emotions even in face of a flood of repetitive contributions, and those requesters are right - would you mind avoiding describing people's contributions as "stupid", and give detail as to why? 7daysahead (talk) 10:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is a basic difference in philosophy. There are some people who think that they shouldn't examine hypothetical cases until they're proven to exist, but when I raised this idea my thought was that whether or not it happens, our reaction to it is a useful test of our opinions, because someone could choose to do it at any time. I can picture a whole NRM with symbology of Ra's voyage through the underworld and the Yin-Yang of the cosmos. Wnt (talk) 22:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- As and when Manning does toggle her gender in that way we can have that discussion; at the moment I don't think we need to consider that. FormerIP, there have been numerous levelheaded requests for people to keep hold of their emotions even in face of a flood of repetitive contributions, and those requesters are right - would you mind avoiding describing people's contributions as "stupid", and give detail as to why? 7daysahead (talk) 10:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Other than a preferential name change, Manning has taken no steps to change identity. The name Bradley will remain with him as will his gender throughought his incarceration in an all-male facility. --DHeyward (talk) 02:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- A formerly all-male facility. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 00:27, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Apparently the liberal thing to do these days is to pretend that we don't know this person has a penis. Theofficeprankster (talk) 11:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Firstly whether or not a person has a penis is a matter entirely for themselves, and it is a gross violation of their privacy to speculate about any person's genitals regardless of their gender. Secondly, I've not seen any reliable sources that state whether Ms Manning has or does not have a penis, and due to point 1 it is exceedingly unlikely there will be any. Thirdly, a persons gender is not related to whether they have or not have a penis - just because gender frequently correleates with biology does not mean that they are the same or that one is a function of the other - correlation does not imply causation. Thryduulf (talk) 12:13, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, not everyone buys into that idea of gender being so easily changeable, as evidenced by the voluminous discussions on all of this here. Second, I see no need or desire to speculate on body parts either, not so much per privacy concerns but rather practicality. Bradley Manning, a man, was the one arrested for passing classified intel. Between detention and trial, Manning spent most of the time at Quantico on suicide watch, conditions not really conducive tho having physical changes done. Tarc (talk) 12:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Gender doesn't easily change. What changes is that some people realise that the gender they have been raised as is not correct, and so choose to change the way they present themselves to the world so that the world sees them as the gender they actually are not the gender they are not. Note Manning's statement was "I am female" not "I have become female" or "I want to become female". As for your final point, in what possible way is speculating on somebody's genitals not an invasion of their privacy? Thryduulf (talk) 11:53, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, not everyone buys into that idea of gender being so easily changeable, as evidenced by the voluminous discussions on all of this here. Second, I see no need or desire to speculate on body parts either, not so much per privacy concerns but rather practicality. Bradley Manning, a man, was the one arrested for passing classified intel. Between detention and trial, Manning spent most of the time at Quantico on suicide watch, conditions not really conducive tho having physical changes done. Tarc (talk) 12:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Bigotry, Knowing and Otherwise
I would like to point out that an alarming number of comments in this discussion are upsettingly dismissive of trans people. Comments that equate being trans to declaring one's self some other species or fictional concept abound, as does a focus on legal names that, while presumably well-meaning, demonstrate a painful lack of awareness of the realities of gender transitions and gender identity.
I would respectfully ask that whoever ends up making the final decision on this - and I don't envy you in the least - dismiss these comments entirely. Reasoning motivated by transphobia, whether borne of genuine ignorance or active malice, has no place in the decision-making of this project. While my view is straightforward - the issue of how to handle trans people's identities was settled ages ago, and relitigating it as part of a large and heated political issue is unwise - I would ask that whatever criteria this issue is ultimately decided on, arguments based on ignorance and bigotry not be given any serious consideration. The underlying principles to consider are existing policy - the Manual of Style, our sourcing policies, our policies regarding respect for living people, and whatever other policies that existed before August 22nd, 2013 are relevant.
Efforts to alter those policies on this talk page are inappropriate. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is a discussion of the name change, not the pronoun issue. It's perfectly coherent for the article to be named Bradley Manning and for the pronoun "she" to be used for the person in question, particularly when referring to events after Manning's claim of female gender. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That doesn't seem like a response to anything I said. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It seemed that you were referring to MOS guidelines on pronoun selection for transgendered persons. Is this incorrect? Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That doesn't seem like a response to anything I said. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Just be careful your comments aren't otherkin-phobic themselves. In my opinion, the issues of name and pronouns have gotten mixed up. The article name issue is not really about whether Manning is male or female, but about whether Manning is "Bradley" or "Chelsea". Having said that, I appreciate that for many transgender people, the change of name is an important thing. StAnselm (talk) 01:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
And I'd like to congratulate Manning on successfully trolling Wikipedia, mass media, and even own supporters at http://www.bradleymanning.org/ --Niemti (talk) 01:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Past precedent
For the record, what we did in previous and less politically charged cases:
- Chaz Bono - announced transition on June 11th, article was moved the same day. Surgery was not completed at that time, and the change was made based on his publicist's reports of his preferred identity.
- Lana Wachowski - Edit warred over the course of a year, but changed in December of 2011, months before Lana's first public appearance as a woman.
- Laura Jane Grace - Announced plans to transition in May of 2012. Article was only touched by one editor for several weeks, who opposed moving. Consensus quickly formed to move the article, and it was done within a month of transition with only the original editor objecting.
Those are the three people I can think of who made transitions after they were already notable enough for articles. In all cases the article was moved quickly, prior to surgery, and upon the public announcement of a gender transition. Precedent, of course, is not binding, but it seems to me helpful to consider what we did in less politically charged circumstances. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is possible that there were far fewer eyes on those articles, so the renaming slipped by. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 04:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sure. There are lots of possibilities, and as I said, precedent isn't binding. That said, the fact that this is tied to a contentious political issue is a reason to be cautious about the attention this one is getting. In many ways I trust the project's judgment more when there isn't a huge crowd gawking at a topic. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Personally, my arguments for the page being at Bradley Manning have absolutely nothing to do with her not having transitioned yet, or the name change not being "official" or whatever. The situation is simply whether she is better known as Bradley or Chelsea at this moment in time. U-Mos (talk) 11:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would also take into account the page on Poppy Z. Brite. Totorotroll (talk) 19:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Invasion from reddit
I was wondering why I saw so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars and this is why - there has been three separate links on reddit to communities vested in seeing this page reverted to its original name. While new users are encouraged, this very vote seems to be a form of vandalism perpetrated by a much larger community of users disinterested in the way wikipedia works. It also begs the question as to whether consensus can be reached with so much outside influence. This is actually a fight that's existed on reddit for quite some time - whether gender can be self identified or not. There is a large group of people on reddit who would like nothing better than to tell the rest of the world what they can and can not do with their own self identification. Outside of giving a rundown on the complexities of gender in relation to biological function, and the system in place created to give gender "meaning", I don't think this argument should be on whether gender identity is "real" or not - and that's what this vote has actually become, a way for people on all sides of the issue to soapbox on whether or not they think a person can change their gender identification. This vote is in my mind a farce, and in no way represents the method in which wikipedia reaches consensus. Honestly, outside of the fact that I personally see this fight as an affront to a group of people that have to struggle to maintain their personal identities every day, and outside of the lack of knowledge when it comes to how gender identity works, I am appalled at what a shitshow this has become. Countered (talk) 06:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can you link to the Reddit thread/posts in question? Haipa Doragon (talk) 07:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/1kw14d/a_wikipedia_edit_war_has_started_brace_yourselves http://www.reddit.com/r/sjsucks/comments/1kwdp1/the_sjws_are_having_a_field_day_on_bradley/ http://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia/comments/1kvria/i_was_browsing_the_wikipedia_page_of_chelsea/ http://www.reddit.com/r/editwars/comments/1kw0s2/chelsea_manning_vs_bradley_manning/ http://www.reddit.com/r/TransphobiaProject/comments/1kx9ji/wikipedians_sure_are_mad_that_bradley_manning_got/
- The /r/wikipedia page alone has more than enough votes to have completely shifted the vote on whether or not the name should be changed, and it's clear from the comments which they support. Countered (talk) 07:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see the issue. None of those links are particularly popular (by Reddit standards), the wordings of the link text are neutral, and the discussion on Reddit is two-sided. On the /r/wikipedia page, there seems to be a slight preference for Bradley, but, so what? No one, anywhere, is telling people to vote in the RM discussion (I don't even think it's linked directly), and those few who do/did come here have every right to participate. Considering this talk page is now semi-protected, I doubt this is having much of an effect. -- tariqabjotu 07:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, your point of view has been supported by the influx of reddit users, of course you don't mind it. Regardless of which way they are swaying it - they are swaying it none-the-less. If they had been supporting my point of view, I would (and have) linked to their posts (see the last post I linked). Countered (talk) 07:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see the issue. None of those links are particularly popular (by Reddit standards), the wordings of the link text are neutral, and the discussion on Reddit is two-sided. On the /r/wikipedia page, there seems to be a slight preference for Bradley, but, so what? No one, anywhere, is telling people to vote in the RM discussion (I don't even think it's linked directly), and those few who do/did come here have every right to participate. Considering this talk page is now semi-protected, I doubt this is having much of an effect. -- tariqabjotu 07:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- First, this is a high profile and immediate issue in American history so hardly surprising editors would show here to opine. People care more about individuals who have had an effect on history, as opposed to celebrities or musicians. If Bill Clinton decided he was the female Clarissa Clinton would we automatically change that article's title and call Clinton a "she" when it was alleged he was raping and assaulting women? Not unless his defense at the time was he really was a woman so how could he have done so, which of course was not his defense. User:Carolmooredc 11:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Please assume good faith; I responded the way I did because that's how I assessed the situation, not because that served my position. I similarly did not accuse you of bringing this up because you want supporting remarks discounted (which is an easy accusation to make). You have no evidence that Reddit has been funneling lots of traffic here, other than "so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars". I don't follow how that shows an influx of Redditors. And, as you even admit, there are posts that also promote the Chelsea Manning title... so I don't see what the problem is. As I said, most of the posts are worded neutrally, and there are Redditors with a variety of positions, even in the most popular of the posts you linked; in fact, the top-rated comment here that expresses an opinion is rather tame, and sparks a remarkably decent debate about the title that doesn't devolve into the patent soapboxing and prejudice you fear. -- tariqabjotu 13:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- You are incorrect in the belief that influx of users via a third party campaign will help your position. Quite the contrary, the views of new users recruited to support a particular POV will be ignored, and not help their cause at all. I see very few support posts worded "neutrally", but tons of posts with what User:Surtsicna above called "pure, policy-unrelated bigotry." I think this discussion was finally settled by Sue Gardner's comment, there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Wikipedia policy dictates. This talk page is not the right venue for proposing changes to Wikipedia policy. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your comment had nothing to do with what I said. I, for example, never argued that a third-party campaign helps my position. And I would never say that. Believe it or not, I would like this to be settled by consensus, fair and square. I don't care if this article stays at Chelsea Manning; that outcome would have zero effect on my life, and I understand there are acceptable reasons to do so (now and/or as time goes on). You don't seem to understand this, but discussions on Wikipedia are not wars or battles to be won. They're attempts to find out what we should do about a particular issue, given our vast number of guidelines and policies. And, despite your insistence that this is a black-and-white issue, where "there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Wikipedia policy dictates", there remains enough ambiguity in our set of policies and guidelines that reasonable people may still have disagreements. As has been pointed out a number of times, your eagerness to resort to labels and attacks on, and condescension toward, those who disagree with you is extremely unhelpful. -- tariqabjotu 15:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Changing an article based on a subject's "personal preferences" or "self-identification" seems a weak argument, and possibly a dangerous precedent. I wonder, if a politician changed from being a Republican to a Democrat would we refer to them as a Democrat during the period in which they were a Republican? If a white person self-identifies as black or Native-American should Wikipedia do so? Chris Fynn (talk) 16:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
WP:COMMONAME
WP:COMMONNAME says that when a name changes, "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change". Hence most support votes above are premature and ignorant of what the text actually says since its too early to notice a trend. Therefore, when editors use this argument I hope they search properly by counting search returns dating from after the name-change announcement. Any admin closure should take al this into account and disregard any votes which count pre-transition announcement sources. Pass a Method talk 16:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- I can't find the post alluding to 270 odd recent mentions of "Chelsea Manning" so opining here. Obviously this is big news this week and there will be 270 returns. However, what matters is what Manning is being called a month from now (with this and next week filtered out) and six months from now, and in books to be written in the future. Not to mention if Manning in fact sticks with that name, having changed it once before, or adopts another. User:Carolmooredc 20:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's the point. The article was moved within minutes of the announcement of the new name, so there were no sources to support the idea that sources call the subject Chelsea. We've seen a number of sources use the name in the context of the gender identity switch, but we're still left with inconsistent information about the use of the name in standard articles. As this article from the USA Today shows, the media has not had the seismic shift some people have prophesied. Among the sources that apparently have not switched over to Chelsea Manning (at least yet) are Reuters, BBC News, The New York Times, CBS News. -- tariqabjotu 03:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- The article refers this person as "she" because the editors did so. The content may be changed again into "he". By the way, you might want to refrain from calling votes "premature and ignorant" just because of content changes and of people's views about name change. --George Ho (talk) 13:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- BTW, "Chelsea Manning" has had 36,000 views yesterday while "Bradley Manning" had 16,000. So "Chelsea Manning" is twice as popular as "Bradley Manning". So if we go by popularity on wikipedia, Chelsea would be the obvious choice. Pass a Method talk 14:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because Bradley Manning redirects to Chelsea Manning, only 20,000 of those 36,000 views came directly to Chelsea Manning without going through Bradley Manning. It's impossible to say what the source of that difference is. Perhaps it's because people looking for information about this subject are more likely to search for or type in "Chelsea Manning".
- However, it's also possible the difference is influenced by the fact that several articles in the media (as listed at the top of this page) link to Chelsea Manning. It could be because there are a number of people involved on this talk page and various discussions about the naming issue repeatedly looking at the article Chelsea Manning (myself included), which would not require me to go via Bradley Manning (remember, these are individual, not unique, views we're talking about). Perhaps it's because the Main Page links directly to Chelsea Manning. Or perhaps it's because people have heard the name "Chelsea Manning" in the news and have decided to search for that, even though when looking for information on this person they would otherwise search for "Bradley Manning". We just don't know, and I don't think we can read too much into these figures with all the publicity at the moment.
- From the Stats FAQ, "I wouldn't base any important decisions on these stats." -- tariqabjotu 15:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
List of Wikiprojects that have been alerted
I don't see any mention of this, per WP:Canvass. I looked in a couple likely places and found below. Perhaps people could share if they posted it anywhere so that others can decide if they want to post it on other relevant projects. Feel free to add to list below. User:Carolmooredc 16:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- WikiProject_LGBT_studies
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Conservatism
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history
References to Manning in sources
Sue Gardner mentioned several sources supposedly switching over to Manning's new name. However, they appeared to be mostly blogs and viewpoints that people should accept and use Manning's chosen name. As I said in response to her, it seems better to look at how sources actually refer to Manning in ordinary stories and articles, particularly outside of the announcement of Manning's new identity. (Doing that, we see a direct contradiction to the wishes of the New York Times' public editor, for example, as explained here.) So, I've begun compiling a list; feel free to add to it. (I must say that, at the current time, it is very difficult to find sources from after the announcement that refer to Manning in a context other than the announcement itself, so I hope that, at least over time, this can grow.) -- tariqabjotu 16:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using Bradley
- The Independent (dated August 23): "It came just days after a judge at Fort Meade, in Maryland, sentenced Bradley Manning to 35 years in prison [...]"
- The New York Times (dated August 22 online, August 23 in print): "[...] just as the court-martial of Pfc. Bradley Manning included charges [...]"
- Reuters (dated August 23): "U.S. soldier Bradley Manning, who was sentenced on Wednesday [...]"
- BBC (dated August 22 afternoon): "Profile: Bradley Manning"
- Using Chelsea
- The Huffington Post (dated August 24): "Americans have reached no consensus on the fairness of the prison sentence given to Chelsea Manning"
- AP (dated August 26): "The Associated Press will henceforth use Pvt. Chelsea E. Manning and female pronouns for the soldier formerly known as Bradley Manning, in accordance with her wishes to live as a woman."
Re-posting what I said above in the other section about the usages I found... (reorganized a bit to match what tariqabjotu did.) - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 18:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using Bradley
- CNN's video " (dated August 22) [...] CNN will continue to refer to him as Bradley Manning since he has not yet legally changed his name [...]"
- Margaret Sullivan's blog, while talking about why the media should change, linked to the New York Times Manual of Styles which has provision to keep a newsworthy name against the subject's wish (Unless a former name is newsworthy or pertinent, use the name and pronouns (he, his, she, her, hers) preferred by the transgender person - original emphasis removed)
- Reuters (dated August 23) "Bradley Manning, the U.S. soldier sentenced this week for leaking 700,000 classified documents to WikiLeaks in the biggest breach of secret data in the country's history, could soon be entangled in another legal showdown [...]" (the rest of article only uses Manning, and apart from stating Manning's wish to live as Chelsea, has no mention of either of the first names)
- ABC News (dated August 22) "[...] Military officials say Bradley Manning has returned to a prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., to serve his 35-year prison sentence for giving mountains of classified material to WikiLeaks [...]" (also mentions Manning's wish to live as Chelsea)
- CBS News (dated August 23) title: "Bradley Manning identifies as transgender: Transitioning explained"
- Using Chelsea
- NBC News clearly has switched to preferred name by Manning in multiple articles published since Thursday afternoon.
- One opinion piece on ABC News supports the change
I think it's best if it gets summed up by this USA Today article: Media torn in Manning 'he' or 'she' pronoun debate
WP:BLP Issue
I have seen the issue of WP:BLP pop up time and time again in the move discussion so I want to know is it valid to say that the article's title move violates WP:BLP? If so where does it state this or if not where do people see it as saying it? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- This has already been addressed and you already dismissed the answer to your questions. Sportfan5000 (talk) 04:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Making "emotinal distress" the new standard for wp:blp violation is going to set a hopeless precedent. I don't mean to dismiss how serious this issue is I'm just saying it will be difficult to know how to apply this rule. Will be good to have this card up ones sleeve when editing BLPs... --Space simian (talk) 10:59, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Legality and notability
I found another case of a person not having a legal name change but their article reflecting the name tthey chose in the media.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bobby_Jindal
His "real", and legal name is Piyush Jindal, yet because of notability of his nickname in the media, it's been changed. There isn't even a rule utilized on this page either, and it's been like this for more than a year. Countered (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFF, lets focus on this article. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
because of notability of his nickname in the media
Yes. Exactly. The article is entitled Bobby Jindal not because he just decided to call himself that, but because reliable sources actually call him that. -- tariqabjotu 18:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Meaning of "no consensus" in this case?
If the result of this discussion is "no consensus", does that mean the title should be Bradley Manning or Chelsea Manning?
Obviously, the title is currently controversial (a contender for most controversial title ever). However, it only became controversial on August 22, 2013. Prior to that the title was stable at Bradley Manning. It just happens that the edit wheel war over the title happened to end up at Chelsea Manning, so the formal RM was created as moving Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning. However, the real discussion is about whether the title should be one or the other, not whether Chelsea Manning should be renamed to Bradley Manning (the distinction is subtle but matters if the result of the discussion is "no consensus").
If there is no consensus, it seems to me it should be reverted to the title that was stable before it became controversial. That means Bradley Manning. Yes, I also believe that should be the title, at least for now while that's how the subject is referred most commonly in reliable sources, but that should not undermine my point/argument at all: when there is no consensus in an RM discussion, the closer should restore the most recent stable name, which in this case is Bradley Manning. --B2C 03:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I would think it would be Bradley Manning because there was no consensus to move to Chelsea in the first place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is evidence that BD2412 (talk · contribs), one of the closers, already understands this. -- tariqabjotu 03:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think we need to second guess here, or start proposing what should be done if X, or Y, or Z. We're just going to have to trust the closing team. I also hope this doesn't go to move review...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Re User:Tariqabjotu's comment "There is evidence that BD2412 (talk · contribs), one of the closers, already understands this." — I think there's a problem regarding this. Please see the discussion I had with User:BD2412 in the section on Jimbo's Talk page at [10] starting with BD2412's message of 12:28, 27 August 2013. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Since my name is being invoked here, let me be clear: it is really of no moment to the discussion at hand to speculate about what closing admins "understand". The arguments with respect to this question have been raised at various points on this page, and in various other forums, and will be given full consideration at the appropriate time. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @BD2412: I'd hardly say I'm speculating. Your sandbox says
Although the article has since been locked at a particular title, the presumption is that the title it had before any moves took place is correct, unless there is a consensus of the community to change that title
. If you had/have an issue with people alluding to your notes, even obliquely, you should have written them off-wiki. It's still not too late to do that. -- tariqabjotu 19:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)- From my perspective, that is speculating. It is basically summarizing the argument as it has been made in the discussion. bd2412 T 20:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- The question I asked BD2412 at Jimbo's talk page wasn't about his sandbox, it was about his comment at WP:ANI[11] where he wrote, "I interpret WP:BRD as requiring a consensus in favor of a title different than the one that existed yesterday, in order for such a change to be effected." I asked the question which title is "the one that existed yesterday"? Instead of answering, BD2412 made a comment about his sandbox. If that was a mistake, User:BD2412 has a chance to clear that up by answering the question here. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- User:Kww has since helpfully reminded me that BRD is not policy - although it is, obviously, a very helpful principle. Cheers! bd2412 T 00:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)'
- No but WP:TITLECHANGES is: Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made. Debating controversial titles is often unproductive, and there are many other ways to help improve Wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- It really should be and it has been treated as such for several years. Space simian (talk) 16:11, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is about the time when I remind myself that I am on a Wikipedia talk page and try to take responses such as User:BD2412 (and apparently the other closer User:KWW's part) with good humor. I kinda have an idea now how the close is going to go, so there won't be much suspense in it for me. Cheers. (P.S. Hi User:SlimVirgin.) --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- User:Kww has since helpfully reminded me that BRD is not policy - although it is, obviously, a very helpful principle. Cheers! bd2412 T 00:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)'
- The question I asked BD2412 at Jimbo's talk page wasn't about his sandbox, it was about his comment at WP:ANI[11] where he wrote, "I interpret WP:BRD as requiring a consensus in favor of a title different than the one that existed yesterday, in order for such a change to be effected." I asked the question which title is "the one that existed yesterday"? Instead of answering, BD2412 made a comment about his sandbox. If that was a mistake, User:BD2412 has a chance to clear that up by answering the question here. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- From my perspective, that is speculating. It is basically summarizing the argument as it has been made in the discussion. bd2412 T 20:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @BD2412: I'd hardly say I'm speculating. Your sandbox says
- Since my name is being invoked here, let me be clear: it is really of no moment to the discussion at hand to speculate about what closing admins "understand". The arguments with respect to this question have been raised at various points on this page, and in various other forums, and will be given full consideration at the appropriate time. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Re User:Tariqabjotu's comment "There is evidence that BD2412 (talk · contribs), one of the closers, already understands this." — I think there's a problem regarding this. Please see the discussion I had with User:BD2412 in the section on Jimbo's Talk page at [10] starting with BD2412's message of 12:28, 27 August 2013. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have no idea "how this close is going to go". Over eighteen hours of discussion remain before closure, and other than the brief and peripheral exchanges on our respective talk pages, I have not conferred with the other admins. bd2412 T 20:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
If there is "no consensus", the article stays at the current title (Chelsea Manning), also because of the evident BLP problems that the other title would mean, specifically not harming the article subject. Josh Gorand (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- No because there was no consensus to change the name of the article to Chelsea in the first place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. It was moved without consensus, so the default would be to move back if consensus is not reached - to do otherwise would set a worrying precedent for controversial page moves (wheel war, lock page, put it to a vote, vote fails so new name stays). Then we're back to the BLP concerns and whether they over-ride the consensus or lack thereof. I don't envy anyone making a final decision here. StuartH (talk) 04:57, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thirded. A man named Bradley Manning was arrested, convicted and sentenced under Bradley Manning. He will be sent to an all-male prison. His notability arises out of the original name of the article and the sources that make him notable is "Bradley Manning". I think the page on Cat Stevens is very similar. --DHeyward (talk) 06:44, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- A man who has always felt he was a woman went through these notable incidents and now, as a living person, is undergoing gender identity transition. And the Cat Stevens comparison has already been dismissed. This is a fundamental identity recognition of a fundamental change in gender, not a personal change in religious affiliation. Sportfan5000 (talk) 09:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thirded. A man named Bradley Manning was arrested, convicted and sentenced under Bradley Manning. He will be sent to an all-male prison. His notability arises out of the original name of the article and the sources that make him notable is "Bradley Manning". I think the page on Cat Stevens is very similar. --DHeyward (talk) 06:44, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter why or how the article was moved at an earlier point in history, per precedent, a no consensus outcome means the current title stays. And as I understood it, there was consensus at that point, as well as policy mandating the move. Josh Gorand (talk) 14:23, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- There was consensus at that point in the mind of David Gerard only; this hardly constitutes such. -- tariqabjotu 14:30, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- The link you provided demonstrates there was consensus for the move. It is entirely common for only two, three or four people to participate in such discussions on talk pages. The fact that other people turn up at a later point and oppose the original move, doesn't change the fact that there was consensus when it was moved in the first place. Also, there is the issue of policy mandating the move, leaving David no other option. Josh Gorand (talk) 14:38, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it is clear at this point that Josh's position is to define "consensus" in a way that supports his position, and the admin team reading this will take that Ito account. Further discussion with him seems to be pointless.Two kinds of pork (talk) 14:49, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- The link you provided demonstrates there was consensus for the move. It is entirely common for only two, three or four people to participate in such discussions on talk pages. The fact that other people turn up at a later point and oppose the original move, doesn't change the fact that there was consensus when it was moved in the first place. Also, there is the issue of policy mandating the move, leaving David no other option. Josh Gorand (talk) 14:38, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- There was consensus at that point in the mind of David Gerard only; this hardly constitutes such. -- tariqabjotu 14:30, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. It was moved without consensus, so the default would be to move back if consensus is not reached - to do otherwise would set a worrying precedent for controversial page moves (wheel war, lock page, put it to a vote, vote fails so new name stays). Then we're back to the BLP concerns and whether they over-ride the consensus or lack thereof. I don't envy anyone making a final decision here. StuartH (talk) 04:57, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Supplementary !vote rationale
by User:Morwen and User:David Gerard. Please comment at bottom.
It is our position that Wikipedia policies and guidelines (particularly WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY), and precedent of previous similar page moves, mandates the correct location of the article as being Chelsea Manning; that this was true at the time of the article move and true at the time of the BLP action to keep it there, and remains true now. As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this.
There have also been repeated claims that we have not explained our rationales in sufficient detail for the questioners to understand; this is an attempt to supply said detail, at length, in the hope of clearing up matters.
MOS:IDENTITY
Firstly, let us look at the specific guidance that MOS:IDENTITY has regarding trans people. At the time of writing, this was:
- Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life.
If we look back in the history of the page we can see it has been stable for a long time. By the end of 2009 it had achieved nearly its current form:
- Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to using the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies when referring to any phase of that person's life. [12]
We don't think there's any serious dispute that Manning's "latest expressed gender self-identification" is female. Questions of Manning's inferred legal name or medical transition status are irrelevant to this.
Although none of the examples (and we note the examples were added later) are personal names here, "Bradley Manning" is a gendered (proper) noun on the plain meanings of words. If we refer to Wikipedia's own page on the name Bradley, we see that all the people listed who bear it as a first name identify as male, and our infobox asserts that the name is male. There is apparently some marginal evidence it might be coming into use as a neutral name for children born today, but this is not terribly relevant when applied to Private Manning - its usage 25 years ago (among Manning's peer group) is what counts. It is clear from the chat logs (see below) that Manning believes it to be strongly gendered.
MOS:IDENTITY demands that Manning not be "referred to" with gendered nouns that are contrary to expressed preference. So, Manning should not be referred to as "Bradley Manning", under any text covered by the Manual of Style. (This allows mention of the fact that Manning used to be known as Bradley Manning, because that it itself is not a use of the term as a reference per se)
It has been claimed by various editors that this section of the Manual of Style does not apply to article titles, and is limited to the actual article text. This is unfounded. The MoS section "Article titles" explicitly notes:
- The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title. (our emphasis)
WP:COMMONNAME is being used as a justification for the article to be moved back to "Bradley Manning". The situation is developing rapidly, but we have a good number of press sources now using "Chelsea Manning" consistently, with some hold-outs still using "Bradley Manning". The British press, following Leveson Inquiry guidance (see below), moved quickly (even right-wing outlets, e.g. the Daily Mail, changing within hours), and the US press has been moving over the course of the past few days. Although MOS:IDENTITY is already sufficient, it is increasingly clear that "Chelsea Manning" now is the "common" name, regardless of whether this was the case on the 22nd.
WP:COMMONNAME contains several caveats:
- Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources.
Using a former name of a trans person who has met the criteria for MOS:IDENTITY seems to meet the definition of "inaccurate" here. The general point of WP:COMMONNAME is where there is a pool of titles that it would be acceptable for the article to be at, you pick the common name; it does not rule things in when they would otherwise not be acceptable.
It also states that
- more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change.
Throughout the project, it is generally understood that WP:COMMONNAME is a default principle, to apply when no other good practice can be found or developed. Far from being straightforward, it is supplemented by a vast number of subpages which either clarify what is meant by "common name", or override it in specific fields where a more technical name is considered helpful, in the way that MOS:IDENTITY does.
We therefore consider it clear that the correct title of this article, under the Manual of Style, is Chelsea Manning.
Precedent
The earliest article about a trans person on Wikipedia we have been able to find is Wendy Carlos. The history shows that there was some debate about pronouns and wording of the article, but there has never been any question that the article should be anywhere else. Carlos, despite having achieved notability under her old name, had been transitioned for several decades by the time her Wikipedia article was created, however, so this does not present a useful precedent for how Wikipedia handles recent transitions.
We can think of three particularly famous people to have transitioned in the public eye in recent years: Chaz Bono, Laura Jane Grace, and Lana Wachowski. Let's have a look at the naming of these articles:
- Chaz Bono
- The article "Chastity Bono" was created on March 4, 2002. It was moved to "Chaz Bono" on June 11, 2009 [13], the same day the news that Bono had transitioned broke. Although discussed on the talk page, the article has remained in the same place since, and no WP:RM was filed.
- Laura Jane Grace
- The article "Tom Gabel" was originally created as a redirect to the band "Against Me" on March 24, 2006. It became a stub about the lead singer of the band on May 21, 2008. The news that the singer would transition and take the name "Laura Jane Grace" was reported on May 9, 2012, and resulted in an immediate flurry of activity on the article. If we examine the wording in the Rolling Stone article at the time more closely, we see that it was announced as a future intent (it was also not entirely clear whether the subject was dropping the "Gabel"), specifically that "Gabel will eventually take the name Laura Jane Grace" [14].
- There was an inconclusive discussion on the talk page, and a move to Laura Jane Grace on May 28, 2012 was reverted later that day. The article was moved again to Laura Jane Grace on June 6, 2012, after more evidence had arisen regarding an actual change of name. This caused a small amount of protest on the talk page, but the dispute was not escalated, and the article has remained there to this day.
- The Wachowskis
- The article about the Wachowskis (directors of The Matrix) was created on May 5, 2001, under the name "Wachowski brothers". They invariably work together, and have never had separate articles. Unlike the other cases, there had been rumours regarding Lana's transition for a long time before the subject officially went public with it. The first edit regarding this was made on May 4, 2004. [15] For a long time the consensus was that sources like this were not sufficiently reliable to report on, and there was certainly no evidence that the elder sibling had publically transitioned. The films they worked on continued to have the "Wachowski Brothers" as their screen credit, including Speed Racer (2008). In 2011 it was noticed that the name "Lana" was being used in press for "Cloud Atlas", and a requests for comment started regarding whether the article should be moved. This met broad popular acclaim, and it was moved.
The common element to all three cases is that Wikipedia changed the article name promptly once sufficiently good sources were available, including personal statements of transitioning.
WP:BLP
We have also invoked WP:BLP. The BLP policy is a set of general principles rather than a detailed guide to implementation, so it might not be immediately apparent to people unfamiliar with trans issues how this should work.
- Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy.
Due regard for trans people's privacy usually includes not mentioning birth names. Birth names are considered highly sensitive information, not to be shared lightly, and we expect most trans people would be highly distressed to see their old name prominently in the article - deliberate use of an old name when a person has expressed a strong wish for the use of their new name being a common mode of personal attack upon transsexuals in the wider world, in the same manner as deliberate misgendering (as can be seen on the wiki itself, where a common tactic for anti-transgender vandals is "outing" someone with their old name and/or changing pronouns. This includes a recent attempted "doxxing" of one of us in the present case by a banned user.). For example, in a recent report into the practices of the British press, Lord Justice Leveson found that [16]
- The use of 'before' names as well as photographs of the individuals in question not only causes obvious distress but can place them at risk.
In cases where the subject achieved fame or notoriety before a name change the transition is part of the narrative. For Chelsea Manning we accept it would be impossible to suppress her birth name entirely (and Manning's latest statement concedes that in practical terms, it is unlikely, despite Manning's sincerely expressed preferences). But inability to protect the subject's privacy completely does not mean we should not make our best effort: we should go to the closest thing that is possible, and give Chelsea Manning primacy.
- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist,
Tabloid, sensationalist, journalism is far more likely to be presenting old names as "real" names and self-chosen names as some kind of nickname; tabloids are not a role model for Wikipedia to emulate.
- or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.
As User:Sue Gardner has pointed out, one of most compelling points is the prospect of harm. We quote her here:
- I will take a crack at the question about harm. Recapping: BLP says the possibility of harm to living subjects must be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This matters because BLP trumps COMMONNAME. (I am setting aside the question of MOS:IDENTITY for the purposes of this comment.)
- It is reasonable to believe there's a possibility Manning could be harmed by Wikipedia retitling the article Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning, because she made a formal announcement explicitly asking that "starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun." Wikipedia is an important site: the #5 most-popular in the world, read by a half-billion people every month, more widely-read than any other news or information site. If Wikipedia were to call its article Bradley Manning, Manning might believe that Wikipedia is rejecting her requested name and/or gender characterization. It is not uncommon for people who feel dissonance between their experienced gender identity and the gender they were assigned at birth to feel significant emotional distress, at least some of which is due to how they're treated by society. (See this article.) And indeed, in Manning's May 2010 chat logs she describes herself as having GID (gender identity disorder), as having had three breakdowns, as being "in an awkward state," "uncomfortable with my role in society," "scared of being misunderstood" and "isolated as fuck." She says: "i wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me… plastered all over the world press… as boy…" I think it's clear that Chelsea Manning hopes and expects that people will use the name and pronoun she asked them to, and that to the extent people do not, they risk causing further trauma to someone who is clearly already significantly distressed. Sue Gardner (talk) 03:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
It is relevant that, although commenting on the article talk page in her capacity as an ordinary user, Sue Gardner deals at length with BLP issues at Wikipedia's interface with the wider world in her role as WMF Executive Director, and so has relevant expertise in and insight into such issues that should be considered.
Furthermore,
- BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone [...] biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times.
It is neither cautious, dispassionate nor fair to ignore someone's express stated wishes about how they should be known, when that sort of change is hardly unprecedented and is a result of a condition recognised by the scientific-medical-legal-social-consensus. It is not an area that compromise is possible on - we have to pick one.
Keeping the page at Chelsea Manning is consistent with the style guide, BLP and the usage of sources. Going against all three to move it back to Bradley Manning would be seen as a political statement that they are wrong: that trans people are mentally ill, and/or are delusional. It constitutes gratuitous offence: offence that is easily avoidable, significantly harmful and adds nothing to coverage of the subject, and that therefore should be avoided. Wikipedia should not do that, and policy and precedent strongly support that it should not.
Morwen (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC); David Gerard (talk) 15:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Comments on rationale
- Re "As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification" — Please recognize that there are other points of view when it comes to deciding what is the more appropriate title, and that changes to the long-standing title of Bradley Manning should be done only with consensus when there is an objection. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- This did in fact occur, though it was pretty quick (don't have the diff to hand, have posted it repeatedly before). The key point is that (a) it was clearly right (b) WP:BLP mandates not leaving it wrong - local consensus on a talk page cannot override BLP. I do appreciate this can be disconcerting in an area people don't understand - David Gerard (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your arrogance knows no bounds. -- tariqabjotu 15:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- This did in fact occur, though it was pretty quick (don't have the diff to hand, have posted it repeatedly before). The key point is that (a) it was clearly right (b) WP:BLP mandates not leaving it wrong - local consensus on a talk page cannot override BLP. I do appreciate this can be disconcerting in an area people don't understand - David Gerard (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- (I'm actually at work right now and probably out this evening, but promise to respond to stuff here, expand further, etc in due course.) - David Gerard (talk) 15:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for writing this. Having the policies explained by folk more familiar with them is very much appreciated. —me_and 15:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you for this detailed rationale which I fully support. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't have time at the moment to write a fuller response. However, I am perplexed by the idea that this was co-written by the two editors who performed moves to Chelsea Manning and protected the article at that title. Why you two weren't capable of coming up with your own independent responses (David, in particular, who repeatedly rebuffed any editor who dared ask for one), and instead framed this in terms of what "we" did is highly disconcerting. It, at the very least, gives the impression that there was collusion to put this title in place. Surely, you realize that this format will raise a few eyebrows. It doesn't help either that you start off with the arrogant presupposition that
As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this.
I'm getting the sinking feeling that we have been manipulated. That MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline that Morwen, at least, admits she can "partially take credit for" doesn't help either. It marks a shameful chapter in Wikipedia's history when two administrators can collude to enforce an outcome and then when presented with ample evidence that their position is highly controversial, and seemingly in the minority, argue that their actions were clearly right, except to us peons who just don't "understand". There are understandable, valid rationales presented on this talk page for having the article at Chelsea Manning, but I'd like to think that even a great many of those who support the Chelsea Manning name can realize that this attitude is disgusting. -- tariqabjotu 16:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)- WP:BLP states right there in the intro:
- We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
- As cited above, titles count as part of the article. That's what I mean by "WP:BLP mandates not leaving it wrong" - David Gerard (talk) 16:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Morwen writing part of the guideline is irrelevant; it's an accepted guideline, and that's the point. I co-wrote the first draft of WP:BLP (with SlimVirgin), but that's irrelevant to its acceptance - David Gerard (talk) 16:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I put that badly in the interview, and unfortunately it turns out I can't go back and edit it! I wasn't responsible for that wording - but it was codifying long-standing existing practice. I make no apologies for being consistent. Morwen (talk) 16:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- And we didn't actually communicate on the issue at the time, except on this page, FWIW (though we talked about it soon afterward and since); "collusion" appears to be a reading that assumes bad faith - David Gerard (talk) 16:44, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah. I mean, clearly we have discussed this since, but openly posting a joint statement seems to be a fairly weak definition of "collusion". Morwen (talk) 16:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I notice that User:Tariqabjotu in the above comments and their corresponding edit summaries accuses user:David Gerard of "arrogance", being "disgusting", having "manipulated" others and "colluding to enforce". These are completely unacceptable comments. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sure Tariqabjotu will strike out the apparent personal attacks in due course - David Gerard (talk) 16:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:BLP states right there in the intro:
- David, I will do no such thing. A spade is a spade. When asked about what caused you to consider the Bradley Manning name a BLP violation, for three days, your best answer was "I already told you" and accusations of IDHT. When asked to point to where exactly you already explained yourself, you pointed to a thread where, clearly, no such explanation exists. No, instead, in a statement delivered through someone else you argue that the action was "sufficiently obvious" that it shouldn't have required explanation. You continually refuse to consider the idea that your interpretation of BLP might be out of touch with most of the rest of the community, or that it's even controversial at all (despite five days of heated debate). You bombastically argue that
The key point is that...[the move to Chelsea Manning] was clearly right
. Further, when anyone so much as mentions the idea that Morwen moved the article hastily or before consensus was achieved, you are quick to jump in and argue that those assertions are "factually incorrect"... as if we peasants can't draw our own conclusions from the relevant thread as it was at the time of Morwen's move. The adjectives I used were entirely appropriate, and you can abandon all effort to get me to rescind them. -- tariqabjotu 20:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- David, I will do no such thing. A spade is a spade. When asked about what caused you to consider the Bradley Manning name a BLP violation, for three days, your best answer was "I already told you" and accusations of IDHT. When asked to point to where exactly you already explained yourself, you pointed to a thread where, clearly, no such explanation exists. No, instead, in a statement delivered through someone else you argue that the action was "sufficiently obvious" that it shouldn't have required explanation. You continually refuse to consider the idea that your interpretation of BLP might be out of touch with most of the rest of the community, or that it's even controversial at all (despite five days of heated debate). You bombastically argue that
- User:Morwen and User:David Gerard, I originally intended to read through all of your "supplementary rationale" first, think it over and then post a comment. But I only came this far:
- "As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this."
- I think this statement is incredibly arrogant and therefore offensive. It reads as if you (as promoters of political correctness towards transgender issues) were standing on a higher level of morality, and that users "unfamiliar with the topic" were, in that sense, somewhat clueless dumbasses, whose opinions therefore were objectively wrong and should be discarded of. My perception is quite the opposite: You are turning this into a political debate by (in my opinion) needlessly jumping on that "transgender paragraph" at MOS:IDENTITY, combined with WP:BLP.
- To me, there is no "transgender issue" at all. I based my above reasoning why I think that the page should be moved back to "Bradley Manning" purely on WP:COMMONNAME.
There are books like "The Passion of Bradley Manning: The Story Behind the Wikileaks Whistleblower", "Truth and Consequences: The U. S. Vs. Bradley Manning", "Private: Bradley Manning, WikiLeaks, and the Biggest Exposure of Official Secrets in American History" or "The Radicalisation of Bradley Manning". My perception is that "this Wikileaks whistleblower" is a famous person still best known as "Bradley Manning" (because contrary to a new pope or king, the name change did not make worldwide breaking news headlines [but e.g. his conviction produced those]), which should also be reflected here on Wikipedia(In the light of AP, the world's biggest news agency, adopting the "Chelsea Manning" term, I have changed my opinion about the "common name", see above) Please note that for my rationale, it is of zero importance why this person changed the name from Bradley to Chelsea (as a precedent, I had Cat Stevens in mind).--FoxyOrange (talk) 16:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)- To quote editor Thryduulf, "I don't think the Cat Stevens article is a good case study to use because that article is at the title of the stage name he used at the height of his musical notability. If I am reading the article right, his personal name was Steven Demetre Georgiou from birth until he converted to Islam and became Yusuf Islam. He also appears to treat his religious conversion as a new beginning, not saying that he was always Yusuf Islam. A change of name of that sort is different from a person expressing that their true identity (not just name) has always been different from that which they presented as. Neither is more or less right, but I think that "I was Christian but am now a Buddhist" is sufficiently different to "I am a man, although my body looked female, I have realised that I have always been male" to make the article about person A a poor one to look to when deciding how to write about person B." Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It was phrased that way so as to presume good faith. I suspect there was no perfect way to say it. If you go further, you will see citations as to WP:RSes dating from the change, not before - David Gerard (talk) 16:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'd be happy to strike "who are [...] wider world are" from the statement if it would help. Morwen (talk) 16:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It was phrased that way so as to presume good faith. I suspect there was no perfect way to say it. If you go further, you will see citations as to WP:RSes dating from the change, not before - David Gerard (talk) 16:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- The wording I criticized already starts at "As editors who are familiar with trans issues". As I pointed out, to me it is completely irrelevant what you are familiar with. The introduction to your supplementary rationale reads as if non-experts would not understand you anyway (which is why I took offense and did not read any further).--FoxyOrange (talk) 16:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'd say leave a correction here, and the above text fixed, for all its defects - although sincere, the commenter didn't actually read as far as the part answering their further objection - David Gerard (talk) 16:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't quite understand why two editors (ones who went through with the initial controversial pagemoves sans consensus, no less) feel the need to post their opinion in a special section away from the rest of the RM discussion. There is a lengthy discussion above which you have contributed heavily to already. Do you intend for us to take your opinion more seriously than other editors and provide it with a special spotlight? I think moving part of the discussion down here will have a chilling effect on consensus building, fewer editors will feel free to comment on the tome you just posted, and will simply split the conversation into two locations. NewAccount4Me (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because Morwen made the move and I made it again and locked it there, and people asked why. And we've been threatened with every sanction under the sun for having behaved according to policy and practice. And we've answered in pieces repeatedly, so the evidence is a joined-up response was warranted - David Gerard (talk) 16:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry if I came across a bit harsh. I can see that rereading my comment. However, now that you've explained yourself so thoroughly, perhaps take a deep breath and a step back? The initial moves, your initial commentary in this new section, and the fact that you made the section at all makes me feel like you (and a few more editors on both sides, really) are having some WP:OWN issues. The editors closing the RM request are well aware of your position, as is everyone else who has been contributing. NewAccount4Me (talk) 17:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because Morwen made the move and I made it again and locked it there, and people asked why. And we've been threatened with every sanction under the sun for having behaved according to policy and practice. And we've answered in pieces repeatedly, so the evidence is a joined-up response was warranted - David Gerard (talk) 16:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that many of us, including both the people who made the initial moves and myself for that matter, have participated and made our voices known very well. It might help to take a pause for a few days and let new voices chime in. CaseyPenk (talk) 17:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, ultimately because I thought the formatting would be a bit of a mess if I tried to put it in as a !vote? Morwen (talk) 17:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is very helpful that the admins who made the action in question have posted a detailed rationale explaining why the move was necessitated by Wikipedia policy, specifically BLP. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is a lot of presumption by those “in the know” that using a trans person’s original name is offensive and they are the sole arbitrators of that judgment call. One need not be African American to know that being called a nigger is patently offensive. What about calling a dwarf a midget? Did you know the term “gyped” is offensive to Gypsies? How about eenie meenie miny moe? While I’m not doubting that proponents that “Bradley=offensive” argument are sincere, this just doesn’t pass the porn test of “I know it when I see it”. Through his lawyer Manning said he prefers both male/female pronouns (and possibly Bradley/Chelsea?) depending on which phase of his life is being discussed. This preference actually goes against the guideline which says the latest identified pronoun should be used throughout a subject’s biography. If using “Bradley” is offensive to referring to the “female” Manning, then using “she” to refer to the “male” Manning expressly goes against Manning’s wishes.Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- As has been noted elsewhere, the attorney's statement is ambiguous, possibly deliberately so (BD2412 I think it was who suggested this) about Manning's views towards pronoun usage for the period of her life prior to 22 August - it could be read as meaning that she is resigned to such usage, isn't bothered about such usage, or requests such usage. Personally I suspect it is the first of these, but I am no more qualified to make that determination than you or any other editor here is. What is clear is that there is no evidence presented that using female pronouns for the period of time before she made the public announcement of her gender would be something she would find offensive. As for the "I know it when I see it", I don't understand the point you are making - if you personally don't know whether something is offensive to a given group of people, why would you doubt it when others who do know, including members of that group of people, say it is? Thryduulf (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- If the media sees fit to use "Bradley", I fail to see how the usage should be offensive in general. Especially for Manning. If a preponderance of the media uses Chelsea, then we will have the answer. Newspapers and the like have been debating "taste" far longer than Wikipedia has.Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- As has been noted elsewhere, the attorney's statement is ambiguous, possibly deliberately so (BD2412 I think it was who suggested this) about Manning's views towards pronoun usage for the period of her life prior to 22 August - it could be read as meaning that she is resigned to such usage, isn't bothered about such usage, or requests such usage. Personally I suspect it is the first of these, but I am no more qualified to make that determination than you or any other editor here is. What is clear is that there is no evidence presented that using female pronouns for the period of time before she made the public announcement of her gender would be something she would find offensive. As for the "I know it when I see it", I don't understand the point you are making - if you personally don't know whether something is offensive to a given group of people, why would you doubt it when others who do know, including members of that group of people, say it is? Thryduulf (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well done, folks. Excellently and cogently presented. I think the only further argument that needs to be fostered is the WP:SELFPUB rationale; specifically, that since WP:BLP mandates that the most relevant sources be used, and the MOS:IDENTITY guidelines state a given self-identification is the correct frame for both title and content, that we should make the assumption that a self-declaration IS the best source for us to rely upon vis-a-vis a given person's gender identity by way of WP:SELFPUB. A different comment above seems to claim this as an "extraordinary claim" but I find that assertion to be extraordinary; no individual knows you and your internal identity better than you yourself. As far as I'm concerned this line of reasoning is a laser clear path to the end of the discussion and I cannot come up with a rational counter-argument that does not rely on personal or inherent bias. QuackCD (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Regarding the substance of the points made, I see some flaws.
- MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline that, as I understand it, was largely shaped by the LGBT WikiProject. While many such guidelines shaped by WikiProjects exist, this is a much broader discussion than the one that led to the guideline. For that reason, our hands should not be tied to adhering to it strictly if consensus here suggests otherwise. I also don't buy the idea that MOS:IDENTITY is supposed to cover article titles (as it explicitly says WP:AT should govern them) or that personal names were supposed to be covered under gendered nouns (given the examples provided). Why you feel content accepting WP:AT's reference to the MoS, but not the MoS's reference to WP:AT is beyond me; to me, it clearly seems like a local consensus deferring to a global consensus when conflicts arise.
- Much of the rest of your comments about MOS:IDENTITY and about precedent in general suggest an unsubstantiated idea that transgender people are somehow different from everyone else. They suggest that a transgender person's choice of changing their name means much more than anyone else's. The same argument that a subject wants to put their old name in the past applies to virtually everyone who changes their name. And, yet consensus has shown (Cat Stevens, Lily Allen, etc.) that we need not always move our article if sources don't do otherwise. You reference to WP:COMMONNAME in your explanation borders on insulting, as if your prognostication absolves you of your missteps.
- Your BLP explanation, as I expected, is quite out there. As you eventually admit, the name Bradley Manning is public knowledge and it's never going to disappear. The idea that having it as an article title just hours after the world knew the subject solely as such is a violation of privacy is, frankly, absurd. I already responded to Sue's suggestion of how the name "Bradley Manning" will cause harm to a person who probably won't see a computer for decades, so I don't need to repeat that. And, as I've said before, your interpretation that BLP compels us to rename articles to meet subjects' preferred names seems out of touch with consensus, as demonstrated with similar name changes at some other articles. As before, I have yet to see any evidence that transexual people should be afforded different treatment in this regard. That a Justice Leveson or GLAAD wants us to doesn't seem to be relevant; we have our own policies and guidelines, and just as we wouldn't allow any political, religious, or advocacy group to shape our articles or force us to do anything, we shouldn't allow pro-LGBT groups to decide matters here. We should all be able to separate our personal agendas from what Wikipedia policies and guidelines enjoin us to do. -- tariqabjotu 20:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with much of what Tariqabjotu has said, so I will not repeat the arguments. Like FoxyOrange, I also feel insulted by the opening paragraph of the joint statement, which suggests that editors unfamiliar with trans issues cannot pose valid arguments in this debate.
- I would like to add more examples of cases where we have not moved the article title, despite the clear wishes of the article subject: Burma vs. Myanmar, Snoop Dogg vs. Snoop Lion, Jay-Z vs. Jay Z. These have been mentioned before, but have not yet been fully discussed in the current debate. Edge3 (talk) 22:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- None of those people are expressing a lifetime change of gender - "I always have felt I was female". In fact none of those examples are dealing with gender at all, and the examples of those articles that do deal with changing gender we have followed the same course. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Tariqabjotu, this has nothing to do with which group brought forward Mos:Identity and who cares if they had? It's been accepted by the rest of the community and speaks to respecting a living person coming out as transgender. That's a huge step for anyone to make when there is such hostility and violence directed specifically at trans individuals and trans women in particular. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Except WP:MOS has nothing to do with article titles, that fact still stands. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:58, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- That argument has already been addressed by editors who are considered some of the truest authorities on these issues. MosIdentity does, in fact state that "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life." I think common sense is that when international media follow a living person's wishes to be called by the name she chooses, as has happened many times before (including stage names and nom de plumes) Wikipedia has no issue doing the same. In fact it's such a core aspect of a person's identity the name change when reported on by reliable sources should take effect immediately like any good online encyclopedia should. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Except WP:MOS has nothing to do with article titles, that fact still stands. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:58, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- re " that this was true at the time of the article move and true at the time of the BLP action to keep it there, and remains true now" - Wrong, wrong, and wrong. This entire section seems to have been started haphazardly by an admin desperate to justify his misuse of admin powers. The only point here even remotely worth considering is the MOS:IDENT one. Regarding the part of WP:MOS "The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title" - Some folks seem to use this as justification for changing the name in the title. But MOS:IDENT deals with pronouns not actual names. If there was a pronoun in this title, I would agree the pronoun should reflect the female identification, but there isn't a pronoun in the titles; hence, MOS:IDENT doesn't apply. NickCT (talk) 22:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think this whole thing is crazy, what is going to stop these two admin to do this same thing the next heated debate comes up? Are we going to make m ore splashes in the media as a result? The fact was that as soon as Manning chose the name "Chelsea" for himself you went into action against policy, against consensus of Wikipedia and make the choice yourself Morwen and David Gerard to go ahead with it. Manning has been documented as being Bradley already, and the military will not accept the name Chelsea, so really what is the subject more notable for? Also and this is the last thing for people to think about, would this discussion be the same if Manning had killed and tortured children as his crime and changed his name? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Common sense will likely lead the way as it has in this case. Those two admins arguably did exactly the right thing and for exactly the right reasons. Who cares if the media mentions Wikipedia? They already have many complimenting the good work in respecting her wishes. There is no evidence that the military won't accept a legal name change when it gets one, in fact it's highly unlikely that they will do anything but honor it. The notability issue is moot, the BLP is here and it remains a BLP, ergo we should respect her personage and use her gender-identity as stated just as we do on other BLPs. The nature of the crimes is a red herring. The issues remain the same wether one sees her as a hero or traitor. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the time to write this excellent summary. I'd have to agree that a clear sighted reading of policy, together with the expectation of very high page views for Chelsea's article, left you no choice but to act as you did.FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- After following this debate I'm starting to think moving the page quickly was the right thing to do and that there probably should be a special exception in WP:COMMONNAME in the future for this type of situation.
- However, I don't think it is all that obvious. Private Manning is notable for her deeds as Bradley Manning and it is reasonable to expect that those looking for her article expect to find it under Bradley Manning for quite some time, especially if reliable sources would have continued to use Bradley. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and a Wikipedia title is not used to address the subject nor does it necessarily reflect the subjects currently used name, in fact it fairly often does not. In particular it is not a guideline on how to address people (although it seems that non-wikipedians might not understand this [17]). WP:COMMONNAME exists for good reasons: it is an easy to follow rule that promotes neutrality and avoids conflict, confusion and the risk of causing information loops. What complicates matters in this particular case is that using Bradley might make it seem like we maliciously deny her the right to choose her own gender identity. Unless there is a very good reason for doing so, not changing the title to Chelsea seems unnecessarily cruel and in this case I think that outweighs the other considerations (especially since non-wikipedians seldom understand Wikipedia policy, in my experience).
- I still do not see the relevance of WP:BLP in this particular case. If we weren't allowed to cause "emotional distress" to subjects of BLP:s there wouldn't be any. WP:BLP is, as I understand it, mostly about avoiding unsubstantiated claims (i.e. libel). In particular, I don't think we would have caused much distress if the article had been kept at Bradley for the duration of the move request. —Space simian (talk) 01:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's a whole section above explaining more how to apply BLP in cases like these. The former name is really not an issue as long as the redirect points to this article. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but I don't find that section convincing. —Space simian (talk) 01:29, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps I should try to explain this better? As I wrote, the title is not used to address the subject nor reflect her current name and the privacy argument above makes little sense considering that everyone is already familiar with the name Bradley not to mention the article itself begins with
"born Bradley Edward Manning"
and that will have to remain in order for the article to remain comprehensible. —Space simian (talk) 17:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)- The title is Manning's name, she is a living person who has clearly expressed that she feels she has been a woman all along and wants to be referred to with female pronouns and as Chelsea. The birth name can certainly be kept just as it is on hundreds of articles where there is a different birth name. This is a basic respect for a living person's wishes, just as we call Lady Gaga and so many others by the name they choose. As a transwoman it's particularly disrespectful to call her by a male name or pronouns - as to discredit her in some way. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with that, but the title isn't used to address her. --Space simian (talk) 06:49, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- The title is Manning's name, she is a living person who has clearly expressed that she feels she has been a woman all along and wants to be referred to with female pronouns and as Chelsea. The birth name can certainly be kept just as it is on hundreds of articles where there is a different birth name. This is a basic respect for a living person's wishes, just as we call Lady Gaga and so many others by the name they choose. As a transwoman it's particularly disrespectful to call her by a male name or pronouns - as to discredit her in some way. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's a whole section above explaining more how to apply BLP in cases like these. The former name is really not an issue as long as the redirect points to this article. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Morwen and David Gerard. Thank you so much for writing this up: I think it's clear and useful, and I agree with your conclusion that keeping the page named Chelsea Manning is consistent with MOS:IDENTITY, WP:BLP and increasingly also with WP:COMMONNAME. I also agree that at this point moving back to titling the article Bradley Manning would add nothing valuable to the encyclopedia, and could be gratuitously offensive to Manning and to other transgender people. I do want to elaborate a little WRT WP:COMMONNAME. To the extent that it matters how reliable sources refer to Chelsea Manning, it's worth noting (as pointed out elsewhere on this page) that the New York Times and the Associated Press have both now announced they intend to use Chelsea Manning on first reference going forward. Deputy NY Times copy desk editor Susan Wessling wrote that “Starting tomorrow, we will move to a new formulation: … Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Pfc. Bradley Manning… ‘Private Manning’ on later references, and ‘she’ for the pronoun.”" and the AP wrote that "The Associated Press will henceforth use Pvt. Chelsea E. Manning and female pronouns for the soldier formerly known as Bradley Manning, in accordance with her wishes to live as a woman." The AP decision is particularly significant because AP provides copy for more than 1,700 newspapers in 120 countries, as well as about 5,000 broadcast outlets. It's not impossible for media organizations to change AP copy, but most don't, which means the AP decision will result in many, many papers and broadcast outlets starting to use the name Chelsea Manning and the female pronouns, now. Sue Gardner (talk) 05:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Ms. Gardner, whatever rationale exists post facto for the article to reside at Chelsea Manning completely begs the question of the disreputable, consensus-breaking, discussion-squashing, admin-rights-usurping way it got there. You amazingly are indifferent to this in your argumentation. On that merit and only on that merit, the article should be technically reverted to reside at Bradley Manning. Then, and only then, you are welcome to logically persuade for any move. --Mareklug talk 15:12, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Retort to supplementary !vote rationale
by RA (✍). Please comment at bottom.
As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this.I don't like beginning with something as negative as this, but this is a particularly arrogant statement and it raises questions about these two admins being too WP:INVOLVED in the topic. I'm also concerned about the use of the plural pronoun in this statement to explain the rationale behind the sequence of actions (administrative and non-administrative) that took place. It points to some degree of WP:TEAM-work at play. Note: some degree.
What are we naming: an article or a person?
First, throughout this discussion, folk have conflated the title we give to an article and the name of the subject of that article. As explained in policy (Wikipedia:Article titles) and the MOS (at WP:IDENTITY) these often the same - but not always.
Just because we give an article some title does not mean that we are calling the person by that name or are implying that that's the right name to call the subject by. It is an article we are naming here. Not a human. It is entirely possible to call the article one thing and the human another. Indeed, it is frequently the case that we do.
Also, there is some groupthink I can see at play with regard to reading (or not reading) WP:IDENTITY. Commenters appear to have followed the lead of earlier (possibly too enthusiastic) commenters who quoted from the second bullet point of this guideline. However, the question here is what title the article should be at. Article titles are addressed in the first bullet point of WP:IDENTITY:
"Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article."
So there is no need to make strained arguments about what is a gendered noun or not. The MOS is clear, we look to the usual policies. Specifically in this case, Wikipedia:Article titles. The second bullet point is useful for the content of the article. But for the title, it's the first bullet point that applies.
WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CRYSTAL and WP:V
The situation is developing rapidly, but we have a good number of press sources now using "Chelsea Manning" consistently, with some hold-outs still using "Bradley Manning".This is probably the most unfortunate aspect of this affair. Rather than holding their breath and seeing how things panned out, Morwen and David Gerard jumped the gun.
So, should we look into our crystal balls? No. We don't do that. It's what sources say now that we are concerned with. We don't try and predict what they are going to say a week or a month from now. We don't comment on how sources are shifting before our eyes and so we'd better get in early. If things change, things change. But we don't run ahead of other sources.
The press may have lauded "us" (without knowing "us" was just Morwen and David Gerard) for doing so in this case - but that's because they don't understand us. We are not a news agency. We don't lead. We follow.
Beyond WP:COMMONNAME: WP:CRITERIA
Further to WP:COMMONNAME, the actual guidance for choosing a good article title is at WP:CRITERIA. Of the "criteria" for a good article title, the two most pertinent to our discussion are:
- Recognizability: The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject will recognize.
- Naturalness:' The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles.
Both titles (Bradley Manning and Chelsea Manning satisfy the other three criteria.)
At this time, I don't think that "Chelsea Manning" has had enough time to become sufficiently associated with the subject for it to be the recognisable or natural title for the article. Certainly, not when the move occurred. That may change in time. But it is still too early.
Have patience. If Manning becomes more recognisable as Chelsea (and so Chelsea Manning becomes the most natural title for a reader to search for) then we'll move.
BLP
The issues brought up regarding BLP policy deal more with the content of the article, as opposed to the title. But I'll address them anyway and try where I can to put them in the context of a title discussion.
Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy.We are not dealing with any matters of privacy here (definitely not in the title). Manning has made known the intention to live as a woman. And Manning's history as a man is public knowledge. It is not a case of "outing" Manning. Indeed, Manning is known to most people as man and as "Bradley".
Due regard for trans people's privacy usually includes not mentioning birth names.This is dangerously close to WP:CENSOR. We can respect Manning's wishes but Wikipedia isn't censored by them.
Birth names are considered highly sensitive information, not to be shared lightly,...Manning's birth name isn't private information. It's well known and in the public domain. We are not telling any secrets when we say that Manning formerly went under the name of Bradley or when we have the article at Bradley Manning. She is known to the whole world by that name.
...a common tactic for anti-transgender vandals is "outing" someone with their old name and/or changing pronouns.Again, we're not "outing" Manning. And the claims that we are are beginning to sound hysterical.
But inability to protect the subject's privacy completely does not mean we should not make our best effort: we should go to the closest thing that is possible, and give Chelsea Manning primacy.Within the article, sure. Why not? But the title of the article has other considerations. We can write the article sensitively and respectfully. We can even assert that Manning's name is Chelsea, but that doesn't (immediately) alter what other people know her as. And article titles are geared towards what other people expect the article to be titled.
...or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.We're not spreading titillating rumours. Manning is most widely known by the name Bradley Manning. We're not spreading this. We can (and should) go some degree to countering this and educating people that she is now called Chelsea. But people are coming here looking for an article on Bradley Manning - and that's what determines the title. That may change in time - but I don't believe it has changed yet.
BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone [...] biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times.We can be fair. And indeed we should be. But we do not have to slavishly follow the desire's of a subject in every respect.
Sue Gardner's argument
Regarding Sue Gardner's argument, I have great sympathy for this position. I think it's very caring. At the same time, we are not the NHS. With argumentation like this, we're getting very close to trying to act as Manning's doctor. And losing sight over what we are: an encyclopaedia.
We can show dignity and sensitivity to the subjects of our articles. In fact, we must. But we cannot allow that to direct our decision making above everything else.
Our articles contain statements about living people that they don't like. They contain statements that hurt their feelings. Even statements that may cause them distress - even severe distress. But we're an encyclopaedia. We're not writing these things gratuitously. We're not writing them to cause distress. If we say in this case, oh we can't have the article as that title because it might disrupt her transition, where will it end?
If someone was the victim of a accident, can we not say their face was disfigured because they are known to be depressed over that? If someone has autism, should we not mention it because it causes them distress to be reminded that they are different? If someone was anorexic in the past, we really shouldn't say anything about their weight now because we might cause a recurrence?
We are not here to protect people. Neither are we here to attack people. We can show them dignity and respect. But we cannot hold Manning's hand and tell everyone to leave her alone while she transitions. That's not our job.
Furthermore, the nub of Sue's argument hangs on Wikipedia being a major site and the danger of Manning reading our supposed rejection of her requested name and/or gender characterisation. I don't believe that at this time Manning has access to a computer so this is not an immediate practical concern and may not be for several years or decades.
However, more specifically, Manning is conscious that people know her better as "Bradley Manning". Her lawyers have said, "There's a realization that most people know her as Bradley. Chelsea is a realist and understands."
So, fears of causing Manning unnecessary distress are misplaced. Manning "is a realist and understands". Should we not be also?
Compromise is not possible?
It is not an area that compromise is possible on - we have to pick one.I find this the most amazing aspect of the argument put forward by Morwen and David Gerard. It seems so "all-or-nothing" when that's not the case at all.
Despite so many accusation of "transphobia", there has been relatively (relatively!) little resistance to calling Manning "Chelsea" and to referring to her as "she" in article text. The question before us only relates only to what we title the article.
So, it's not all or nothing. We can easily have the article at Bradley Manning (since that is what most people know her as) and then explain in the text that her preferred name is Chelsea (and so that's what we'll call her).
Consequence of a revert
...to move it back to Bradley Manning would be seen as a political statement that they are wrong: that trans people are mentally ill, and/or are delusional.I find this ironic since it is already seen in the press as a political statement that we moved the article - and Wikipedia should not be making political statements of any kind. Morwen has played a particular part in that narrative as she has actively publicised the incident on social media and in the press, where she has categorised resistance to the move here as being "transphobic".
If there are consequences to moving the article back to Bradley Manning, it will be a consequence of Morwen and David Gerard's making. It is they who between them moved and then locked the article at Chelsea Manning without consensus. So please, don't put back on the community the consequence of your actions.
Finally, I'll quote this section from WP:TITLECHANGES (mainly because, throughout this discussion, questions of what is "right" have cropped up):
In discussing the appropriate title of an article, remember that the choice of title is not dependent on whether a name is "right" in a moral or political sense.--RA (✍) 02:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Addendum: The move as a breach of BLP
I've made this point in an ANI thread but was reluctant to make it her since it is not clear-cut. But since similarly uncertain arguments have been made as to why keeping the article as Bradley Manning was a breach of BLP policy, I'll explain here why I believe moving the article (and subsequent actions) was a breach of BLP policy.
BLP policy mandates that biographies be written "conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy". "[It] is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives". Furthermore, "BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone..."
Morwen and David played fast-and-loose with a BLP. The manner in which the move took place was not conservative, cautious or responsible. It turned discussion on this talk page into a circus. The move itself became subject of media attention. And the instigator of the move publicised her action and this discussion on social media and in the press.
David has claimed that BLP policy mandated that he move the page immediately. How so? What immediate threat to Manning's health or safety existed? What immediate threat existed to Wikipedia? Could we not have waited a week? Did you consider that by making a circus out of this, we might cause more harm to Manning than good?
Manning is not merely the subject of our article. She is not trans* heroine. She a young person, just 25-year-old, who last week was told she may not feel daylight on her skin until she is 60. And the very next day, Wikipedians are making a plaything out of her on these pages and making titillating news stories out of her travails.
How does that serve Manning's privacy? How does it treat Manning with dignity or respect? How is that conservative, cautious, responsible, or dispassionate? --RA (✍) 10:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Addendum II: Consequence of not returning to Bradley Manning
It's been discussed by numerous editors in various places, but before the RM closes, I'll formally add this concern in-process.
Wikipedia has been apparently lauded in some sections of the press for our decision in this matter. However, it wasn't "us". Two administrators between them moved the article to Chelsea Manning and locked it there. They even wrestled it back over the head of another admin after the move was formally contested.
I'm not going to lose sleep if this article is at Bradley Manning or Chelsea Manning. Either title will do. I merely believe that of the two Bradley Manning is the better choice (for now at least) according to our community's policies.
But what does it mean for us if this move is left stand? Is it OK for two administrators to push their will on the community? And unless the community can muster sufficient consensus to overturn their will, it stays? If Chelsea Manning does (or even has, over the course of this week) become the right title for this article to be at, does the end justify the means?
Our means are very important to us.
A few years back, I scoffed when the Guardian reported on a study that found, "a stable group of high-level editors has become increasingly responsible for controlling the encyclopedia". A few weeks later they reported that this site was controlled by a "powerful group of administrators." I thought they must have had it wrong.
Is this what has become of "the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit"?
When I became an admin I made a pledge that I wouldn't use those privileges in British-Irish related topics. I'm too involved. It doesn't matter if I think I know more about those things than you. It's not right for me to use the tools the community has trusted me with to force my will above anyone else.
Maybe I'm a dope. I remember an Irish editor describing the admin tools as "the big gun" a long time back. Maybe she was right. And now that I've got the big gun, I can push my will and have articles how I want them. And unless you can muster sufficient consensus to turn it back, it stays.
'Cos that's what we do around here, now. Right?
Comments on retort
- Agree wholeheartedly with this summary. I especially want to highlight the points surrounding WP:CRITERIA; the "naturalness" and "recognizability" points of the policy are especially pertinent here. Even as some sources shift over to the use of the name "Chelsea Manning" (and these sources have the luxury, as we would in the body of the article, of appending something like "formerly known as Bradley Manning" on first reference), there will be a bit of lag before the average reader will recognize Chelsea Manning as the person they previously knew as Bradley Manning. -- tariqabjotu 02:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed with this summary as well, also concerned about abuse of admin powers, like I mentioned before what is going to stop something like this from happening again? To the supporters: If we had just followed policy and the way we do things then there is a good chance this article would have been renamed Chelsea anyways right? My view: At least this would have been the right thing to do, Wikipedia would not have made the news and less drama. Right now im still for keeping the article's name Bradley as WP:IDENTITY and WP:BLP as said here do not apply when it comes to article titles and what the overall common name is. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think the crux of the difference between this argument and David and Morwen's joint one above is this statement:
- We are not here to protect people. Neither are we here to attack people. We can show them dignity and respect.
- You offer many examples of how Wiki should sometimes say things about people which they dislike in line with its goal as an encyclopaedia, such as mentioning a person's past crimes or medical conditions. However, the key difference between your examples and the current debate is that your examples feature excision of facts from the Wiki in order to ease a person's distress at those facts, whereas the present debate over page naming does not suggest excising the previous Bradley identity, but only using a preferred name as a matter of etiquette. Whatever the page is named, it will immediately make clear in text that two identities exist/ed, which means that reader misinformation is very unlikely.
- Given this, the question is why not spare the subject's feelings by being kind? When no harm, or negligable harm, will come to the documentation of facts, what harm is there in deferring to trans people regarding how they want to be addressed?
- A related argument that tends to be raised at this point is what makes trans people special? Why do they get deference over any old assertion that doesn't threaten factual integrity? This harks back to a passage in Morwen and David's introduction to their argument:
- As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification...
- Many people have taken exception to this passage as arrogant, but I'm not sure it warranted such ire: essentially they're saying that they have a bunch of prior experience dealing with the trans community, and are familiar with attitudes amongst that community. In particular, they're likely familiar with the degree of distress that trans people can experience when people wilfully use their former identity, and I think it is this degree of potential to cause harm that justifies granting more deference regarding a trans identity as opposed to, say, a stage name. And yes, there might be other cases that warrant such deference, but can those not be addressed on a case-by-case basis? Deferring to trans people does not of itself compel you to defer similarly in future arguments about self-identity or other assertions about one's own life.
- I'm not saying it's certainly the case, but I expect that RA, Knowledgekid, Tariq and others may have less experience interacting with trans people and so may be less familiar with how using a transperson's old identity in a manner that suggests it is the true or real identity can cause great hurt, with or without intent. Therefore I ask that those users, if they are indeed less experienced with the issue at hand, consider extending the benefit of the doubt to Morwen et al's experience. Chris Smowton (talk) 11:30, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your last paragraph is, sadly, a remarkably popular sentiment on this talk page. I won't speculate as to why that might be the case, but this sentiment -- that the opinions of transgender people, or people who interact with them often, should be elevated above others -- is dangerous. We don't seem to accept that philosophy among any other group or in any other area of Wikipedia. Can you imagine if an editor, or a group of editors, said that they are more familiar with Muslim issues (perhaps because they're Muslim themselves) and so they know the name "Cat Stevens" is offensive to Yusuf Islam? Can you imagine if those same editors said that we can't talk about Muhammad unless we append the title "Prophet" before his name, that we can't show the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons in the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy article, or that the Muhammad article should be excised of all images of him, in the name of not offending Muslims? Can you imagine if they said those who disagree with their assessments just don't understand issues Muslims face, and that those editors should defer to the position of that group? That would not stand anywhere else, as consensus has shown otherwise. There is no reason given as to why transgender people are different and should be afforded the right to trounce on opinions of people who don't agree with them, and it's disconcerting that so many respected and established members of the Wikipedia community feel that the LGBT community's position should be taken as a trump card. -- tariqabjotu 15:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Why is the sentiment dangerous, as opposed to the censorship that you suggest is a possible consequence? If some editors, perhaps Muslims or perhaps simply scholars of Islam, suggested that using "Cat Stevens" was egregiously offensive then we shouldn't do as they say without thinking, but we probably should entertain the possibility that we're missing something because of our cultural perspective, whether that be a non-Muslim or a non-trans perspective. It is this same consideration that I'm asking you to give here. In fact in the particular case of Cat Stevens, if a group of editors were to claim this was a problem, I'd be inclined to say let them have their way, since Cat/Yusuf's situation is very similar to Bradley/Chelsea's: whatever you call the article, the two-name situation is immediately made clear in the text and no confusion arises.
- You suggest that by these principles we might excise the Muhammed pictures on these grounds, but this falls into the same hole as RA's examples of potentially hurtful statements -- to remove the Muhammed pictures would be to excise facts whereas to name this page in a particular way is only a matter of politeness, not one of fact. In other words, the encyclopaedia has much more to lose by deleting the Muhammed pictures than by using a preferred name, either here or for Cat Stevens, and so the balance of power between politeness and bluntness should shift accordingly.
- Ultimately your argument, like many ventured on this page, is a slippery slope argument: if we allow a person the right to assert their identity in this harmless way, then what about people in the future who assert more controversial things? And the answer is the same as for all slippery slopes: use your common sense! If a person says "hey you might not know this, but it's seen as rude in the XXX community when you do or say YYY," consider the magnitude of YYY! If you can edit without affecting the information the article conveys, give XXX the benefit of the doubt and accommodate. If it's a much more substantial issue, like the Muhammed pictures, then there is an argument worth having.
- You're right that "playing the LGBT card" doesn't give one victory in all arguments, but your given examples are all much more consequential than the one at stake here, which brings me back to my original point: when there is so little at stake, why not defer to the LGBT community and accede to their request for polite address? Chris Smowton (talk) 19:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
If some editors, perhaps Muslims or perhaps simply scholars of Islam, suggested that using "Cat Stevens" was egregiously offensive then we shouldn't do as they say without thinking, but we probably should entertain the possibility that we're missing something because of our cultural perspective
Ok. And I have entertained that possibility. The fact that I didn't come to the same conclusion doesn't mean I haven't thought about this issue. Also, I will point out #NLGJA's guidance on references to transgender people; this position regarding insult is not universally held, even among the LGBT community. -- tariqabjotu 14:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your last paragraph is, sadly, a remarkably popular sentiment on this talk page. I won't speculate as to why that might be the case, but this sentiment -- that the opinions of transgender people, or people who interact with them often, should be elevated above others -- is dangerous. We don't seem to accept that philosophy among any other group or in any other area of Wikipedia. Can you imagine if an editor, or a group of editors, said that they are more familiar with Muslim issues (perhaps because they're Muslim themselves) and so they know the name "Cat Stevens" is offensive to Yusuf Islam? Can you imagine if those same editors said that we can't talk about Muhammad unless we append the title "Prophet" before his name, that we can't show the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons in the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy article, or that the Muhammad article should be excised of all images of him, in the name of not offending Muslims? Can you imagine if they said those who disagree with their assessments just don't understand issues Muslims face, and that those editors should defer to the position of that group? That would not stand anywhere else, as consensus has shown otherwise. There is no reason given as to why transgender people are different and should be afforded the right to trounce on opinions of people who don't agree with them, and it's disconcerting that so many respected and established members of the Wikipedia community feel that the LGBT community's position should be taken as a trump card. -- tariqabjotu 15:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think you make an important point in the addendum (and I agree with the rest as well). It is fairly obvious that Wikipedia was used as a vehicle for propaganda in order to shape public view (intentionally or not). The article is highly visible, describes a current event and was featured on the main page at the time of the move. This was not only irresponsible with regard to the subject, it undermines Wikipedias credibility as a neutral encyclopedia and it only served to inflame the move discussion here. -Space simian (talk) 16:59, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Both comments above and my response below probably should spark their own policy RfC.
- Actually the same politically correct favoritism argument has been done on articles regarding Israel-Palestine and BLPs of individuals in the least bit critical of Israel and Judaism. This led to the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles whose only real solution was 1RR and a greater readiness to sanction those who accused other editors of antisemitism on the flimsiest of pretext. (Battles over POV editing in Scientology and other ethnic conflicts has lead to similar arbitrations.) Given enough influx of hard core Muslim religionists, that kind of ideological POV pushing could become a problem too, though it probably would be dealt with more quickly and firmly given this is English speaking wikipedia.
- In the last few months I've dealt with editors who openly admit or hint at being transgender who add negative, exaggerated/WP:OR inflammatory material to a bunch of BLPs in part because those people do not supported state-enforced rights for homosexuals and assumedly transgenders (or anyone else, since most BLPs are of libertarians). They've engaged in wikihounding and have drive four editors off wikipedia; I've cut down my own editing out of shear frustration with Wikipedia's inability to deal with this behavior. I've recently noticed that a number of feminist articles have emphasized the alleged transphobia of feminists who have problems with some transgender behaviors or political stances. I have a feeling there probably are other categories of articles where similar POVs are pushed in violation of policy.
- The larger issue is the need for Wikipedia to come up with better ways of dealing with advocacy groups, who may employ off and on wiki canvassing and tag team, meat puppet behavior to revert, intimidate and hound editors in order to shape the encyclopedia to their own narrow POV. User:Carolmooredc 17:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know the history of conflicts in this area, so I can't speak to that. However, I want to highlight that, as you seem to suggest, it's irrelevant that the point-of-view being pushed is one that a significant number of editors on Wikipedia are sympathetic toward. POV-pushing is still POV-pushing, and if we want our encyclopedia to be seen as neutral, as we profess through our policies, the actions and sentiment expressed by Morwen and David Gerard need to be strongly condemned. -- tariqabjotu 17:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think one could also reasonably argue that their prior experience and familiarity of editing Wikipedia articles within the Wikipedia community should have outweighed any outside influences gained from their prior experiece and familiarity within the trans community. It's also reasonable to argue that when your rationale for a controversial edit is partly based on those outside influences, you shouldn't feign surprise or dismay when other editor's challenge that controversial edit. And on a final note, their logic is flawed by asserting that these three WP articles cited as precedent should be considered as well in their argument. Precedent is defined as: An earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances. The circumstances surrounding this article title change are not even remotely similar to the circumstances surrounding the title changes of the three cases cited as precedent.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 18:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think WP:OTHERSTUFF applies here, for those article title renames Wikipedia never made the news media or had the admin reverting of the titles to keep it the way they saw fit. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:58, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
I am bewildered by the idea that we would have the article located at "Bradley Manning" and then proceed to discuss the subject with gender pronouns that are obviously from a different name. Surely the solution to this dispute is not, in fact, "have a badly written article that reads poorly." Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
TLDR. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Im in agreement with Chris Smowton, and I'd like to address the argument that this discussion has been an unnecessary "circus" caused by the actions of Morwen and David. Once Chelsea made her public statement, there was always going to heated discussion, regardless of whether the move was delayed. Reliable sources recognise the Chelsea/Bradley choice as being of huge cultural significance, which is why there have already been hundreds of articles specifically discussing the media's handling of the issue (only a fraction of which mention Wikipedia).
While the policy based case for Chelsea was always far stronger, lack of clarity in the applicable wording meant that for the first couple of days, it was still reasonable to disagree. There are respectable reasons for both sides to be emotionally engaged. Opposers feel that not respecting the subject's wishes would cause undue distress both to Chelsea and to many other transsexuals, one of the few minorities who in many regions still face open discrimination. On the other hand, a few supporters seem to feel that sympathy for Chelsea condones treachery and reflects anti US sentiment. More often, supporters take the view that the name change compromises encyclopedic integrity for the sake of political correctness.
IMO the vigor with which we've conducted this debate is a credit to Wikipedia, as is the admirably light touch moderation by the admins, and the clarity with which both sides have presented their case. If Morwen and David hadn't moved to the current title, a great deal of editor time would have still been sucked into this discussion, but we would have been needlessly causing emotional distress to some of our transsexual readers as well as violating our own policies. FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:41, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Ummm... This seems like one of of your typical spouting of misconceptions. Firstly your comment that "the policy based case for Chelsea was always far stronger" is clearly just wrong, though you've correctly identified that the sources have changed, and as such the debate has changed too. Secondly your comment that "a great deal of editor time would have still been sucked into this discussion, but we would have been needlessly as well as causing emotional distress to some of our transsexual readers" seems to assume that WP's trans editors are so emotionally unstable that they would have become distressed by WP waiting an appropriate length of time for the sources to change before changing the title of the article. It seems your opinion of our trans editors is pretty low. NickCT (talk) 13:31, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- I copy edited my comment so it should read better now - Im saying it's a sub section of readers who are at risk of being distressed, not editors. Anyone with the fortitude to be a regular wikipedian is probably not going to be so easily upset, regardless of whether they happen to be a transsexual. FeydHuxtable (talk) 13:46, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agree wholeheartedly. Particularly with "Morwen and David played fast-and-loose with a BLP. The manner in which the move took place was not conservative, cautious or responsible. It turned discussion on this talk page into a circus. ". NickCT (talk) 13:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
When all is said and done - Dont bring to move review
When this is all over and a decision is made can both sides we agree to not bring this to a WP:Move review? A move review would be a nightmare for a number of reasons some being WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:STICK to name two. I am also sure there are at lease a handful of editors here who do not want to see this dragged out any longer than it needs to be. Does this sound good to people here? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- There shouldn't be any "sides". Nearly 300 people have registered an opinion here, and it would be hard to get all of them to agree not to file a move review (to say nothing of getting those who didn't participate to do the same). That being said, I hope any attempt at a move review would be shut down; with three people closing this discussion together, it would be impossible to make a case that the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI wasn't followed or that they missed something. -- tariqabjotu 03:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Opposing views then, I understand it would be hard but it is worth stating here for the record - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support no move review and if it goes I will endorse the outcome, or endorse a speedy close of the MR on procedural grounds. But I really hope no-one brings it to move review. A reasonable closer could find for either name, and I think we should all agree to accept whatever outcome. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support Perhaps some pro-active action is in order regarding this issue? Not to be pedantic about it or anything but getting ArbCom or similar to observe the proceedings of the close committee and "certify" results may be helpful in quelling the argumentative masses? I know I've said my peace and others have done the same regarding this issue; those of us who are reasonable trust the CC to be impartial and weigh the arguments in seeking the correct consensus. I know its sort of an implicit violation of "good faith" but I think everyone knows there are going to be contentious elements on either side if it goes against their wishes. Having some higher authority set in the chain weigh in with a statement endorsing the decisions of the CC may go a long way to heading off these sorts of frivolous arguments. IDK, just a thought, everyone. QuackCD (talk) 20:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Interpretation of MOS:IDENTITY
The relevant language in the guideline say that:
- When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself
My question: is a dispute the same thing as an non-conensus on a Wikipedia article talk page, or is the word dispute referring to a verifiable dispute between reliable sources?
Second Question: Is there a verifiable dispute between reliable sources, or is this dispute purely a Wikipedia issue? Belorn (talk) 09:11, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Typically, a "dispute" means a dispute between Wikipedians but involving sources. Not just opinion. Hence, the direction is to resolve dispute using policy on striking a balance between differing reliable sources.
- There's a verifiable dispute between reliable sources. Sources exist that discuss how some sources use "Chelsea" and some use "Bradley" and that discuss the trend (or non-trend) of moving from one to the other (or back). Some are linked on this page. --RA (✍) 10:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for an excellent answer regarding the interpretation, and for pointing out that there is a source linked on this talk page regarding a dispute between RSs. Is the source/s the USA today article? If there is more, please link them as it can be a bit hard to notice/find them as the talk page is right now. Since I have not created a specific opinion yet, reading such sources is really useful. Belorn (talk) 10:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- There have been a few bandied around. This Buzzfeed example. The Slate also. A Google News search for "Bradley Chelsea Manning" should bring up several.
- Sadly, the affair is a bit tainted. Ideally, we'd look to other sources and take their lead. But, because of the move, other sources are looking to us and using us as an example to follow. So the whole thing starts becoming circular: we follow them following us. Who know what the situation would have been if "we" hadn't jumped the gun? --RA (✍) 11:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's also this Time article posted today, but it's more about pronouns than names. Still, it's thoughtful and it documents the dispute between sources. AgnosticAphid talk 23:52, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for an excellent answer regarding the interpretation, and for pointing out that there is a source linked on this talk page regarding a dispute between RSs. Is the source/s the USA today article? If there is more, please link them as it can be a bit hard to notice/find them as the talk page is right now. Since I have not created a specific opinion yet, reading such sources is really useful. Belorn (talk) 10:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
NLGJA's guidance on references to transgender people
In responding to a comment in the survey section, I happened upon a recent article by TIME discussing the naming and gender controversy. The article includes this intriguing passage regarding the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association's guidance on historical references to Manning:
[A] spokesperson for the group said it would recommend “he” for historical reference too: "When writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender, NLGJA recommends using the name and gender the individual used publicly at that time. For example: Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Bradley, came out as transgender last week. In a statement, Manning said she had felt this way since childhood. Manning grew up in Oklahoma. In middle school, he was very outspoken in class about government issues and religious beliefs, friends said."
I, of course, don't feel Wikipedia's style guide should be dictated by outside advocacy groups. However, this seems to deal a serious blow to the repeated argument that referring to Manning as Bradley, even in historical references, clearly constitutes a serious insult to, invasion of the privacy of, or intolerance toward the subject and transgender people, as at least one LGBT organization disagrees. -- tariqabjotu 02:00, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Associated Press article: "Bradley" and "she"
As we draw to the end of the RM discussion period, a google search of the last 24 hours shows that there are still lots of "Bradley" sources. Perhaps the most interesting is this article from the Associated Press: Bradley Manning lawyer gives more details on gender change. The articles says "Army Pvt. Chelsea Manning, who was previously known as Bradley Manning, wants estrogen treatments that would promote breast development and other female characteristics, which she’d be willing to pay for, while she’s incarcerated at the all-men military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., her lawyer said" (emphasis added). A few editors have said it would be strange and/or inconsistent if we changed the title back to "Bradley Manning" and kept the feminine pronouns, but that's what's happening in reliable sources. StAnselm (talk) 03:05, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- The same article appears in the Huffington Post, however, with the headline "Chelsea Manning Would Be Willing To Pay For Hormone Therapy While In Prison, Lawyer Says", and in some other sources with just "Manning". StAnselm (talk) 03:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- So the reasonable thing to do would be to change the article title to Bradley manning and use the she pronoun. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:32, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Population of !voters
Curious if there was a correlation between editor involvement and !votes, I added up a few statistics on the editors listed above. The results did not show any clear difference that would support my hypothesis. Total edits by Supports add up to 2.3 million. Edits by Opposes are 3.2 million. This adds up to nearly 1% of the total for the encyclopedia. The difference is interesting because more editors are in support of the move than against. This is due to the contributions of two highly productive editors, Bearcat and BrownHairedGirl. It also resulted in a large divergence in average edits with 14k for Supports and 22k for Opposes. There is not a single way to average account edits that prevents a few editors from swamping the population. An alternate way of looking at it is the log-average, which is much closer at 1,690 edits for support vs. 1,670 for oppose. There was clearly a contingent of editors on both sides who came out of retirement for this discussion. I also noticed that the population of editors who participated was skewed by the talk page semi-protection. Opposes have a somewhat longer average account age at 6.1 years versus 5.6 for Supports. DPRoberts534 (talk) 06:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not that I endorse (or disendorse - I simply have not thought about this enough) the general approach. But you might want to check the median number of edits to avoid the outliers skewing the data. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:38, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, yes, the median. My episodes of dozing off in statistics class are revealed. The median is 5,100 edits for Supports vs. 4,400 for Opposes. DPRoberts534 (talk) 07:30, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Interesting. StAnselm (talk) 07:42, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- If you're concerned about one or two outliers skewing the picture, you need to remove those then find the mean. If the point is to find an indication about a relationship between voting and edit-count, the median is not helpful. Formerip (talk) 14:31, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Interesting. StAnselm (talk) 07:42, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, yes, the median. My episodes of dozing off in statistics class are revealed. The median is 5,100 edits for Supports vs. 4,400 for Opposes. DPRoberts534 (talk) 07:30, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Better reference for war logs leak
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The 2nd paragraph of the lead section says Manning leaked, among other things, the Afghan War logs and Iraq War logs. I think Manning being the source of the war logs leak was long assumed, but it wasn't confirmed until Manning's admission on page 16 of his 29 January 2013 statement to the court.
The only citation currently given for the entire set of leaked materials is "Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. For Manning's referring to the documents, see Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010." Well, those sources don't seem to support the portion of the claim pertaining to the war logs. The latter reference is a Wired article that makes no mention of the war logs; it only discusses the Baghdad video, the Granai video, the 2008 Army report blasting Wikileaks, and the diplomatic cables. Leigh & Harding's book likewise, as far as I can tell from skimming the relevant chapter, doesn't explicitly tie Manning to the war logs, either.
So, I feel we should modify the placement and content of the existing reference so that it doesn't apply to the war logs, and then use Manning's own statement as the reference for the war logs—i.e., change this:
The material included videos of the [[July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike]] and the 2009 [[Granai airstrike]] in Afghanistan; 250,000 [[United States diplomatic cables leak|United States diplomatic cables]]; and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the [[Iraq War documents leak|Iraq War logs]] and [[Afghan War documents leak|Afghan War logs]].<ref name=Leigh2011p194/> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. * For Manning's referring to the documents, see [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak/ Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010].</ref>
to this:
The material included videos of the [[July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike]] and the 2009 [[Granai airstrike]] in Afghanistan; 250,000 [[United States diplomatic cables leak|United States diplomatic cables]];<ref name=Leigh2011p194/><ref>Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010</ref> and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the [[Iraq War documents leak|Iraq War logs]] and [[Afghan War documents leak|Afghan War logs]].<ref name=ProvidenceStatement>{{cite web|url=https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_zC44SBaZPoQmJUYURBUnBycUk/edit?pli=1 |title=Statement in Support of Providence Inquiry |date=29 January 2013}}</ref> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211.</ref>
Then, in the "Granai airstrike" section, replace the first reference with <ref name=ProvidenceStatement/>
.
—mjb (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Is everyone ok with this change? If there is no opposition in the next couple of days, I will add it to the article. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 15:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be keen on that because it adds unnecessary footnotes to the lead. (The article is a GA and I was hoping to get it to FA, which is why I'm concerned about style issues.) I didn't quite follow Mjb's point about the need for an additional source, but if there is a need, the sources are bundled, so an extra source can be added to the bundle. The first footnote (ref name=Leigh2011p194) can be removed because it repeats the second. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for considering the request. The placement of references is flexible, of course, but I don't see how adding a reference is unnecessary. The problem is that there currently seem to be no references which actually support the claim that Manning leaked the war logs; the ones given only deal with other leaked material. If there's a better all-encompassing source to use, let's use it, but in a BLP we shouldn't say she leaked the war logs, and provide nothing to back it up. —mjb (talk) 22:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The lead is adequately sourced. The rest of the sources for that point are in the body of the article; not every detail in the lead has to be sourced. See WP:LEAD. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've added an additional source here to the lead. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your addition of the bullet point "For the Afghan and Iraq War logs, see Nicks 2012, p. 137." should be fine. Maybe also change "For Manning's referring to the documents" to "For Manning's referring to other documents"? Either way, thanks! —mjb (talk) 20:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Manning addressed as a "she"?
Manning was born a male, is a male and will continue to be a male despite his so-called "gender identity" problems. It's ridiculous that the whole article addresses him as a she rather than a he, as it should be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PikkoroDaimao (talk • contribs) 09:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, no trans-phobia there at all... NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is clear on this issue, take a look. U-Mos (talk) 10:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
His gender changeover occurred after the important events surrounding him took place. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration? Also,I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but his name is Bradley Manning and he should be addressed as a man.You can't just put the trans-phobic label on everyone with this opinion. (MightySaiyan (talk) 10:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC))
- Actually, yes, I can put the trans-phobic label on everyone with that opinion.
- "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but John Doe is a man and he should not be allowed to marry another man" is unambiguously homophobic.
- "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but John Doe is a black man and he should not be allowed to marry a white woman" is unambiguously racist.
- Please explain how your argument is not unambiguously transphobic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- I do not share MightySaiyan's view on this, but the analogous transphobic comment to your examples would be "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but Bradley Manning is a man and should not be able to live as a woman." That's not at all what was said, MightySaiyan was talking about Manning's legal name and his views on what that should mean for the wording on an encyclopedic article. Such inflammatory responses to that are helping no one. U-Mos (talk) 14:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- This discussion has been had UMPTEEN times on this page already. Please drop the stick, both of you. Focus on content. The article currently uses "she", and will likely continue to do so unless MOS:IDENTITY has changed. Thus, there's not much more to say here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- No need to change MOS:IDENTITY, Manning is verifiably a man as evidenced by his admission into the US Army as a man and his incarceration in a male prison. His name is verifiably "Bradley" Manning as evidenced by the fact that the military and the courts still refer to him as "Bradley", not "Chelsea". And in regards to the Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View, the non-neutral bias is coming from those who insist on calling him a "she" and using his non-legal name as the title of the article. He is neither a "she" nor is his name "Chelsea". When his name is legally changed and he starts hormone replacement therapy, at that point the article should be updated to reflect those changes. But at the current time it is obvious that the fervor to change his name and call him a "she" is driven by editors with a non-neutral agenda. Martylunsford (talk) 02:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's pretty clear that the discussed section of MOS:IDENTITY is explicitly intended to be used for the pages of trans people. I'm not sure how this: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." could be read any other way, especially given the lines that follow it about "phase of that person's life" and similar things that imply transition. Given that, I'd say you'd have to blind yourself to the rules pretty willfully to miss that MOS:IDENTITY pretty clearly does assert that female pronouns should be used on this page. Cam94509 (talk) 20:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- No need to change MOS:IDENTITY, Manning is verifiably a man as evidenced by his admission into the US Army as a man and his incarceration in a male prison. His name is verifiably "Bradley" Manning as evidenced by the fact that the military and the courts still refer to him as "Bradley", not "Chelsea". And in regards to the Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View, the non-neutral bias is coming from those who insist on calling him a "she" and using his non-legal name as the title of the article. He is neither a "she" nor is his name "Chelsea". When his name is legally changed and he starts hormone replacement therapy, at that point the article should be updated to reflect those changes. But at the current time it is obvious that the fervor to change his name and call him a "she" is driven by editors with a non-neutral agenda. Martylunsford (talk) 02:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Do we have evidence she was born as a he? Any medical assessment of genitalia and chromosomes at the moment of birth (from reputable sources, of course) ? Vexorian (talk) 16:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
- Just a comment: I don't think we should call this transphobia. Transphobia should be when people beat up transsexuals and discriminate against them, as some sort of evidence of actual animosity. I think there should be some other category of "trans-skepticism" where a person can decide he doesn't believe the surgery and lifestyle changes really change what sex someone is, or doesn't want to stop using an old name or pronoun in certain circumstances, when there is no animosity. Much as someone can be firmly unbelieving of Islam but not Islamophobic. Wnt (talk) 22:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Even if you would rename it "trans-skepticism", a trans person being miss-gendered will perceive it as discrimination. Vexorian (talk) 02:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Suggestion re personal pronouns
I personally find it very confusing that all personal pronouns have been swapped from male to female, especially those detailing Pvt. Manning's childhood as a little boy. Can we make a consensus to label Pvt Manning as a boy up until the announcement to be female? I think a gender switch halfway through makes a little more sense than whitewashing everything as "she". thoriyan tlk - ctrbs 17:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Furthermore to this suggestion, Pvt Manning herself "requested, from this day forward to be referred to by the feminine pronouns" (per the original press release). It wouldn't be a violation of her wishes to refer to her by the male pronoun before Aug 23/13. thoriyan tlk - ctrbs 18:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
I find a problem in making a change of gender retrospective. It's all very well for a person to request, as Manning did, to be referred to by the feminine pronouns "from this day forward". It's the retrospective part that is problematical. Another famous transsexual, Christine Jorgensen described herself as a child as "frail, blond, introverted little boy who ran from fistfights and rough-and-tumble games". The author Jan Morris transitioned to a female identity in her mid forties but before that date, had married a woman and had five children by her. Peter Wherrett lived about 70 years as a man, marrying and divorcing three times and having children and grandchildren. For the last three years of life, Wherrett lived as a woman called Pip, before dying of prostate cancer at the age of 72. Prospective identification as a woman is not a problem; it's the retrospective part that is problematic. Michael Glass (talk) 03:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- The New York Times specified that it would now use "her" but would keep using "him" when referring to past events. I think this would be the best solution. IMHO, the retroactive use of "her" and "she" in the narrative, when referring to events which took place when Manning was still widely known as a "he", is very unfortunate : I don't think it does a great service to transgendered people. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 09:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using the male pronoun to refer to events when Manning was regarded as male seems sensible.--Toddy1 (talk) 09:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, this, PLEASE!!! I'm fine if Manning wants to be female from now on, but she was born a boy, and did many of the same things boys and young men did. To attribute those actions to a female is *very* confusing, and honestly seems a little wrong. Livit⇑Eh?/What? 15:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Using the male pronoun to refer to events when Manning was regarded as male seems sensible.--Toddy1 (talk) 09:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Another statement from Manning's lawyer
On August 26, 2013, Manning's attorney David Edward Coombs and the Private Manning Support Network (formerly the Bradley Manning Support Network) jointly posted what they call "Additional clarification on PVT Manning's request." http://www.bradleymanning.org/featured/announcing-the-private-manning-support-network It reads in part:
- "While PVT Manning wants supporters to acknowledge and respect her gender identity as she proceeds into the post-trial state of her life, she also expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances. These instances include any reference to the trial, in legal documents, in communication with the government, in the current petition to the White House calling for clemency, and on the envelope of letters written to her by supporters. She also expects that many old photos and graphics will remain in use for the time being." (Boldface in original.)
It's unclear whether PVT Manning's expectation about continuing use of male name and pronouns represents her preference or merely an acknowledgement that old usages will persist. JohnValeron (talk) 18:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, I think it's rather clear. Manning expects male pronouns to be used because that is the reality of how the topic has been discussed in these contexts. I don't see any basis that Manning has changed her preferences based on the above statement. I, JethroBT drop me a line 18:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- GASP! Where is the army of editors jumping on the chance to go in and change all the pronouns in the articles? It looks like NONE of these changes have been made! Could it be that the users who were so quick to make the changes to the article when Manning "announced" he was a woman (as if that just makes it so) gave less than one flying fuck what Manning wants or expects, and were just looking for an opportunity to push their ridiculous advocacy position on a neutral encyclopedia? TUM TUM TUMMMMM! The plot thickens! Clinton (talk)
- Cjarbo2, please be aware that some users have cited what they believe to be policy arguments for the move to Chelsea, and that not all users may be "advocates" for social change. CaseyPenk (talk) 23:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- GASP! Where is the army of editors jumping on the chance to go in and change all the pronouns in the articles? It looks like NONE of these changes have been made! Could it be that the users who were so quick to make the changes to the article when Manning "announced" he was a woman (as if that just makes it so) gave less than one flying fuck what Manning wants or expects, and were just looking for an opportunity to push their ridiculous advocacy position on a neutral encyclopedia? TUM TUM TUMMMMM! The plot thickens! Clinton (talk)
Surely though (notwithstanding my statement below), Manning's own statement puts this entire debate to bed? If he says that he expects male pronouns to be used, then we can take it as implicit acceptance that his Wikipedia article will still refer to him as "he" and "Bradley". --The Historian (talk) 18:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- She asked for respect and acknowledgement of of her gender identity but said that she expected that the name Bradley and male pronoun would be used in various legal contexts. That is not inconsistent with her original statement asking people to use the female pronoun and new name except in official mail to the prison. I fail to see how this is earth-shattering or in any way determinative.AgnosticAphid talk 19:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Interesting. It does take the wind out of the sails of the "must use female names/terms now!" side of the debate a tad, but in terms of having a practical effect on the Wikipedia it probably amounts to little, since we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways. Tarc (talk) 19:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is that some people already are going by what he subject's personal preferences are. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The idea that, as Tarc puts it, "we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways," is downright bizarre. Why did Manning's Wikipedia article require an emergency sex-change operation in the first place? It wasn't because Manning underwent hormone therapy or surgery to alter his gender. It was solely because Manning, through his lawyer's appearance on the Today show, expressed a preference, and Wikipedia's doctors of political correctness sprang into action. JohnValeron (talk) 22:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- A person's gender identity is not conditional on completing the process of hormone therapy and surgery. Bearcat (talk) 22:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The idea that, as Tarc puts it, "we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways," is downright bizarre. Why did Manning's Wikipedia article require an emergency sex-change operation in the first place? It wasn't because Manning underwent hormone therapy or surgery to alter his gender. It was solely because Manning, through his lawyer's appearance on the Today show, expressed a preference, and Wikipedia's doctors of political correctness sprang into action. JohnValeron (talk) 22:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is that some people already are going by what he subject's personal preferences are. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, quite frankly, not everyone subscribes to that notion, and it is quite wrong of you and a handful of others to push your ideology onto people who hold a different opinion on the matter. There is simply no actual person named "Chelsea Manning" here. What we have is a man named "Bradley Manning" who wants to be called by this other name (and awhile ago it was reportedly "Breanna") and referred to as "she". That is all. That is the reality that the article should reflect, the policy of WP:COMMONNAME. Bradley Manning was a solider in the United States military. Bradley Manning was caught passing classified intel to unauthorized parties, convicted, and sentenced. After that, Bradley Manning decided to be called "Chelsea". That is how the flow of the article should be, these are all things that a man named Bradley Manning did, you can't just flick a switch and rewrite history to say "Chelsea Manning was convicted of violating the Espionage Act..." and so on. That just isn't historically accurate or truthful. When and if he legally changes his name, that is when the transition process of the article should begin. That all was simply way too soon. Tarc (talk) 23:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, as I've pointed out before, the problem with insisting on completion of the medical or legal processes as the standard for recognition of a transgender person's new identity is that those things are covered by privacy laws. Nobody but her and her lawyers has a right to access her legal records; nobody but her and her doctors has a right to access her medical records — which means that you're insisting on a standard which no reliable source will ever be able to properly verify whether or when she's successfully met them. It's an unattainable standard which a transgender person can never actually meet unless her privacy is consensually or non-consensually violated in a way that would still be an inadmissible source (e.g. a tabloid stealing her name change documents; somebody actually publishing an unauthorized photograph of her in the communal shower.) That's why it's not conditional on completing the process: there's no way that her completion of the process can ever be properly verified. Bearcat (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Tarc &John Valeron, you both appear to be pushing a fringe view which rejects the medical consensus. The position which Bearcat describes ert to gender identity is the consensus position of the medical profession: WPATH's SOC notes that:
- "gender dysphoria—broadly defined as discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth."[18]
- You are of course quite entitled to disagree, and there are many fringe views on these matters. However, if you want to misuse these discussions to push your own theories about transgenderism and the process of gender reassignment, please have the courtesy not to denounce those with mainstream views as pushers of ideology or "political correctness".
- If you insist on approaching the biographies of trans people with your own set of definitions, and insist on applying a standard which (as Bearcat illustrates) is unattainable, you are effectively demanding that Wikipedia should permanently reject the identities of trans people. That is a blatantly ideological position. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Tarc &John Valeron, you both appear to be pushing a fringe view which rejects the medical consensus. The position which Bearcat describes ert to gender identity is the consensus position of the medical profession: WPATH's SOC notes that:
- Well, as I've pointed out before, the problem with insisting on completion of the medical or legal processes as the standard for recognition of a transgender person's new identity is that those things are covered by privacy laws. Nobody but her and her lawyers has a right to access her legal records; nobody but her and her doctors has a right to access her medical records — which means that you're insisting on a standard which no reliable source will ever be able to properly verify whether or when she's successfully met them. It's an unattainable standard which a transgender person can never actually meet unless her privacy is consensually or non-consensually violated in a way that would still be an inadmissible source (e.g. a tabloid stealing her name change documents; somebody actually publishing an unauthorized photograph of her in the communal shower.) That's why it's not conditional on completing the process: there's no way that her completion of the process can ever be properly verified. Bearcat (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, quite frankly, not everyone subscribes to that notion, and it is quite wrong of you and a handful of others to push your ideology onto people who hold a different opinion on the matter. There is simply no actual person named "Chelsea Manning" here. What we have is a man named "Bradley Manning" who wants to be called by this other name (and awhile ago it was reportedly "Breanna") and referred to as "she". That is all. That is the reality that the article should reflect, the policy of WP:COMMONNAME. Bradley Manning was a solider in the United States military. Bradley Manning was caught passing classified intel to unauthorized parties, convicted, and sentenced. After that, Bradley Manning decided to be called "Chelsea". That is how the flow of the article should be, these are all things that a man named Bradley Manning did, you can't just flick a switch and rewrite history to say "Chelsea Manning was convicted of violating the Espionage Act..." and so on. That just isn't historically accurate or truthful. When and if he legally changes his name, that is when the transition process of the article should begin. That all was simply way too soon. Tarc (talk) 23:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is not a fringe opinion, it is a very real one that is tied to the rejection of political correctness. I give no credence to Bearcat's "medical records are private therefore we just have to go by what the subject says", it's just too absurd to even address. Like it or not, America is fairly evenly divided between liberal and conservative ideologies, and this one of mine happens to fall on the conservative side of things. Bradley Manning simply doesn't become a woman just because he says so. You can deride that as "fringe" if that's what makes you comfortable with yourself, I really don't plan to spend much time haranguing you on why that's incorrect. But from a Wikipedia policy standpoint, we're still at the simple place and time where Manning is still regarded as a male, and generally addresses him as such. WP:COMMONNAME and all that. This whole gender affair should be consigned to a few paragraphs of his bio, maybe even a spinout article if there's enough material. Keep in mind that the primary notability here is a soldier convicted of violating the Espionage Act and about to serve a 35-year term in Ft. Leavenworth. Note that I never plan to edit-war or act tendentiously or attack other editors, I'm just working on moving the discussion here in the way I feel it should go. If the Move Request and other issues do not go the way I wish them to, I will be of course disappointed but will alo consider the matter settled. Unlike some around here, I actually respect consensus. Tarc (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- As I feared, Tarc. You reject the medical consensus as "political correctness" and proclaim your conservative ideology. And yet you denounce others for pushing what you call an ideology. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is not a fringe opinion, it is a very real one that is tied to the rejection of political correctness. I give no credence to Bearcat's "medical records are private therefore we just have to go by what the subject says", it's just too absurd to even address. Like it or not, America is fairly evenly divided between liberal and conservative ideologies, and this one of mine happens to fall on the conservative side of things. Bradley Manning simply doesn't become a woman just because he says so. You can deride that as "fringe" if that's what makes you comfortable with yourself, I really don't plan to spend much time haranguing you on why that's incorrect. But from a Wikipedia policy standpoint, we're still at the simple place and time where Manning is still regarded as a male, and generally addresses him as such. WP:COMMONNAME and all that. This whole gender affair should be consigned to a few paragraphs of his bio, maybe even a spinout article if there's enough material. Keep in mind that the primary notability here is a soldier convicted of violating the Espionage Act and about to serve a 35-year term in Ft. Leavenworth. Note that I never plan to edit-war or act tendentiously or attack other editors, I'm just working on moving the discussion here in the way I feel it should go. If the Move Request and other issues do not go the way I wish them to, I will be of course disappointed but will alo consider the matter settled. Unlike some around here, I actually respect consensus. Tarc (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, we're arguing from unequal positions; the article should never have been moved without having this discussion first. So we started this race with your "side", as it were, already a lap ahead. So me arguing...or "denouncing" to borrow your term...is just trying to get back on equal footing. Tarc (talk) 04:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- We're not going to start asking homeopaths if an article on alternative medicine labelled medicine should be moved. There are no sides here, because you haven't qualified for the race; you are rejecting medical consensus in the name of some perceived right to have your opinions supersede fact. There isn't really much room for debate here. Amitabho Chattopadhyay (talk) 05:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, we're arguing from unequal positions; the article should never have been moved without having this discussion first. So we started this race with your "side", as it were, already a lap ahead. So me arguing...or "denouncing" to borrow your term...is just trying to get back on equal footing. Tarc (talk) 04:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
She has asked in very clear terms that "starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun." The new comment just recognises that sources using her former name will still exist. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, this just clarifies to those who want to correspond with her that they may have to use "Bradley" to get mail to her and legally the case against her is also in that name. Additionally many supporters have pictures and posters displaying the Bradley name. This doesn't change what the article is one bit from its present appearance although I'm sure the same posters will continue to argue until forced to accept consensus affirming Chelsea as the title and she/her as the commonsense and respectful pronouns. Sportfan5000 (talk) 04:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
![]() | It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Chelsea Manning. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
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"...expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances...These instances include any reference to the trial" This is clear cut. Pronouns and name usage must be reverted now regarding Bradley Manning in his pre-female-announcement life. I request that the page be edited so that the male pronouns are used before Bradley's announcement. I also request that the page use the name Bradley before his announcement. IFreedom1212 (talk) 19:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
- I somehow read the statement like three times and missed the apparent meaning of the "reference to the trial" part of it. It's true that maybe as Tarc said it "takes the wind out of the sails" of the one side to some degree. But really, before wasn't your position that what the person themselves wanted wasn't relevant? Do you suddenly think that we should defer to the subject's wishes? How does this statement change things, really? It doesn't really address the larger question of whether it is in fact accurate to use female pronouns in this situation, a question about which there can be a reasonable difference of opinion. AgnosticAphid talk 20:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Follow-up: It's also ambiguous whether "expects to be referred to as Bradley" means "wants to be referred to as Bradley" or "realizes people will refer to her as Bradley," especially in light of her apparent further comment that she is a "realist" and "understands," discussed in the "when bradley becomes chelsea" section below. AgnosticAphid talk 16:35, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Information from Manning's lawyer about pronouns and the photograph
I've obtained clarification of Manning's statement today from her lawyer, David Coombs, which I'm sharing with his permission. Regarding the pronoun, he wrote that the female pronoun should be used only for post-announcement material. I also asked about the current main photograph, and he said that Chelsea is proud of the photograph and would want it to be used until a better one becomes available.
I don't think we should rush to change the pronouns just yet. We should decide on the title first, for one thing. But I'm posting this so that we know what the lawyer's and Manning's preferences are. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:12, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think this carries weight to those who reply here saying "Well this is what manning wants so...." but thanks Slim for the clarification. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- For future reference, the "current main photograph" is File:Bradley Manning US Army.jpg ("MANNING, BRADLEY PFC HEAD AND SHOULDERS 4-26-2012.jpg"). This is the US Army photo of PFC Manning in uniform in front of a US flag, made available by his lawyer, David Coombs. -- ToE 17:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- My personal interpretation of the statement would lead me to the conclusion that "change all pronouns/names in events prior to August 22, 2013 to male/Bradley && differentiate between Chelsea/Bradley on events post August 22, in addition to restoring the title to Bradley" would be the neutral, proper way of interpreting it. (And I think it could be valid. But that's just me...) - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 01:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
WP should be taking a consistent approach, not treating individual subjects according to their requests (or what are interpreted as their requests).
This is useful evidence that the guidance at WP:MOSIDENTITY may be wrong-headed, but that's a discussion to be had there. Formerip (talk) 11:15, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
When Bradley becomes Chelsea
The question of transitioning from one gender to another raises some thorny questions. The day after sentencing, Manning said that she wanted to be referred to as a woman from this day forward. So what do we do with events in Manning's life before this fateful day? This quotation from a CBS report may offer food for thought:
Coombs said Manning knows there is the potential for confusion with the name change, and said Manning expects to be referred to as Bradley when it has to do with events prior to sentencing, the appeal of the court-martial and the request for a presidential pardon. Prison mail must be addressed to Bradley Manning. "There's a realization that most people know her as Bradley," Coombs said. "Chelsea is a realist and understands."
My own feeling is that we could take this as suggesting that everything before the day of the announcement belongs to Bradley, and all references from that day forward belong to Chelsea. I think this may be helpful, especially as at one stage, Bradley identified as a gay man. What do others think? Michael Glass (talk) 16:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think it was a resignation to the state of affairs, not an encouragement to do so - David Gerard (talk) 16:04, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It looks like the above excerpt is evidence that the "distress" argument for keeping the new title of Chelsea Manning isn't valid. Note the part,
- "There's a realization that most people know her as Bradley," Coombs said. "Chelsea is a realist and understands."
- --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- It looks like the above excerpt is evidence that the "distress" argument for keeping the new title of Chelsea Manning isn't valid. Note the part,
- It is a bit ambiguous whether "expects" means "wants" or "realizes". AgnosticAphid talk 16:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
It can be read two ways, I agree. However, I would like people to consider an analogous case where Christine Jorgensen described herself as a "frail, blond, introverted little boy who ran from fistfights and rough-and-tumble games." I think you would have to agree that Jorgensen was comfortable with having been a little boy who changed into a female. Now I know we can't apply this directly to Chelsea Manning. However, we cannot discount the possibility that when it says, " Manning expects to be referred to as Bradley when it has to do with events prior to sentencing" that Chelsea does want this to happen. Whatever else Manning might be, she is no shrinking violet, and if she wanted to be viewed as female all along she would have had no hesitation in saying so. Instead, she used a from this day forward wording in her announcement. Michael Glass (talk) 02:40, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
New York Times flips
Just a note that the New York Times has flipped to using "Chelsea Manning" at this point. [19] The Washington Post has also started using Chelsea. As has the AP. What major media sources are left holding out? CNN is, I know. Is there anything else major that's still using "Bradley?" If not, I would point out that WP:COMMONNAME says "if an organization changes its name, it is reasonable to consider the usage since the change." Given a change in the majority of reliable sources, how is it that there is still a dispute here, exactly? Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can you point to where The Washington Post has started using Chelsea? I just keep getting a lot of AP wire articles. As to a few other sources, see #References to Manning in sources (among them, the BBC). You admit you don't seem to be abreast of who is using which name, so it seems odd to me that you'd conclude, absent such information, that a "majority of reliable sources" now call the subject Chelsea. I understand some people hold the AP and the New York Times to such high esteem that they'd base common name solely upon those two sources, but it's inconclusive at this point what a majority of sources are doing. -- tariqabjotu 20:35, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- [20] Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) That's not The Washington Post using the name Chelsea. The way I read the title it's "[The use/request/idea of the name] Chelsea Manning puts transgender issues in the spotlight", not that the individual is. You'll see in the photo caption, the author still calls the subject Bradley Manning. In the linked photo gallery, the subject is still called Bradley Manning. This is why the sources need to be about something other than the gender identity change; it needs to be clear the source is referring to Manning as Chelsea in passing, not as an idea in reference to the gender identity change. Unfortunately, I can't find any source from the Washington Post written since August 22 that's not an AP wire story. -- tariqabjotu 21:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- This is a more recent article, as is this, but the latter only mentions Chelsea in passing and doesn't use any pronouns. Note: I'm no AP expert, but though the first link is an AP story couldn't they have changed the pronouns and names if they wanted? Maybe the first link isn't that relevant. AgnosticAphid talk 21:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- They're both AP stories. -- tariqabjotu 21:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- [20] Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- You know, though I supported the use of "Bradley", at the same time I acknowledge there may come a day when "Chelsea" is the name supported by a majority of reliable sources. When that day comes, the correct title for the article will be "Chelsea" per WP:COMMONNAME. I don't think that day has come yet and I definitely don't think the title of article should have been changed several days ago (before the AP and NYT made the switch). Let's wait a month and reassess. NickCT (talk) 20:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- A month?!?!?! That's an unheard of wait for a name change like this. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- re "That's an unheard of wait" - Citation needed! Can you point to other examples of name changes like this one which were enacted so quickly after the individual announced a name change? NickCT (talk) 22:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've done so up thread, actually, and the same set of three is covered in David Gerard and Morwen's summary of their reasoning. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Instead of citing a wall of text, why not give examples? NickCT (talk) 13:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've done so up thread, actually, and the same set of three is covered in David Gerard and Morwen's summary of their reasoning. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- re "That's an unheard of wait" - Citation needed! Can you point to other examples of name changes like this one which were enacted so quickly after the individual announced a name change? NickCT (talk) 22:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- By chance, just before you wrote this I replied to you in an older section showing why WP:COMMONNAME + MOS:IDENTITY supported the current title even before the AP and NTY switch. That's not to mention BLP, which fully justified David Gerrad's bold actions. I dont see how we can possibly change from Chelsea, unless we want to tear up policy and decide things based on majority voting? FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @FeydHuxtable - If you read through the conversations above you'll probably note some degree of consensus surrounding the idea that WP:COMMONNAME supports the use of "Bradley". Furthermore, as has been hashed out again and again MOS:IDENTITY isn't really intended to influence article titles. Additionally, no one has brought up a good explanation for how WP:BLP applies. NickCT (talk) 22:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, that's been stated, incorrectly: Wikipedia:MOS#Article_titles.2C_headings.2C_and_sections states explicitly, "The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title." - David Gerard (talk) 22:34, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- "The guidance" in MOS:IDENT relates to the use of pronouns. If a pronoun was used in this articles title, I'd agree it should be "she" rather than "he" based on policy. There is no pronoun in this title. NickCT (talk) 22:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- If we look at the views of experienced editor who actually wrote our guidelines, like Morwen who was one of the authors of the document in question, or SlimVirgin who is arguably the single editor most responsible for shaping content policy, they both seem to believe MOS:IDENTITY supports Chelsea. Your claim to know the guidelines intention better than they do is not convincing Im afraid. FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- My claim is that I can read English and have basic reasoning skills. Please point out for me where MOS:IDENT says it deals with something other than pronouns. NickCT (talk) 01:14, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- If we look at the views of experienced editor who actually wrote our guidelines, like Morwen who was one of the authors of the document in question, or SlimVirgin who is arguably the single editor most responsible for shaping content policy, they both seem to believe MOS:IDENTITY supports Chelsea. Your claim to know the guidelines intention better than they do is not convincing Im afraid. FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- "The guidance" in MOS:IDENT relates to the use of pronouns. If a pronoun was used in this articles title, I'd agree it should be "she" rather than "he" based on policy. There is no pronoun in this title. NickCT (talk) 22:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- BLP application has been explained several times already. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Sportfan5000 - Outside a few folks claiming that calling him Bradley is "sexual harrasment", I haven't seen anyone really point to which section of WP:BLP they feel is at issue. NickCT (talk) 22:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's a whole section devoted to it at Talk:Chelsea_Manning#WP:BLP. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sportfan5000 is correct, but as NickCT's user page says he enjoys dialectics , I'll try showing how BLP applies in a way he may like. The spirit of BLP is concerned with protecting living people from suffering undue harm from changes made to their articles by uncaring anonymous accounts. Calling Chelsea by a name that misrepresents her gender and would very likely be harmful, possibly grievously so, as the poor woman seems to be already under severe mental stress. Syllogisms don't get much simpler, but if you're still not convinced, remember that recognized BLP experts right up to Jimbo have weighed in for Chelsea. FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- re "uncaring anonymous accounts" - So your argument then is that everyone arguing a "support" position is uncaring and anonymous? Ok. So I think we can dismiss that.
- re "misrepresents her gender and would very likely be harmful" - So I take it you think that parents who don't give their kids gender appropriate names are harming their children grievously? Right.... We can dismiss that too.
- re "recognized BLP experts up to Jimbo" - Citation needed. Can you point some source that recognizes Jimbo as an expert in WP:BLP? I presume you have eyes and can read. Go look at BLP yourself and tell me which sections apply. Unfortunately, a lot of people think WP:BLP means we can't say things about people that those people might dislike. It does not say that. NickCT (talk) 01:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- If a child is already facing adversary for other reasons, then yes it could cause grievous psychological harm if their parents add to their troubles by giving them a name that misrepresents gender. Im not at all saying that all support voters are uncaring (Nor do I even suspect that.) Claiming I do from my description of the spirit of BLP is a logical fallacy. Some of your other questions have no concise and clear answer, but I hope you'll understand I dont want to further add to the size of this page given these basic logical misunderstandings. With reliable sources increasingly switching to Chelsea, the already weak case for the wrong name is collapsing, and it's not necessary for every last objector to be convinced. FeydHuxtable (talk) 06:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I guess it's also not necessary to convince the majority of folks who have weighed in in support of "Bradley". "every last objector"? Really.... There seems to be some difficult grasping reality here. NickCT (talk) 13:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- If a child is already facing adversary for other reasons, then yes it could cause grievous psychological harm if their parents add to their troubles by giving them a name that misrepresents gender. Im not at all saying that all support voters are uncaring (Nor do I even suspect that.) Claiming I do from my description of the spirit of BLP is a logical fallacy. Some of your other questions have no concise and clear answer, but I hope you'll understand I dont want to further add to the size of this page given these basic logical misunderstandings. With reliable sources increasingly switching to Chelsea, the already weak case for the wrong name is collapsing, and it's not necessary for every last objector to be convinced. FeydHuxtable (talk) 06:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Sportfan5000 Have you actually read that section? It makes somewhat weird cliams, like this issue somehow relates to the "subject's privacy.". I see no obvious way in which the title of this article relates to Manning's privacy. Do you? Stop guessing at which policies you think might support your opinion and point to actual passages. NickCT (talk) 01:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sportfan5000 is correct, but as NickCT's user page says he enjoys dialectics , I'll try showing how BLP applies in a way he may like. The spirit of BLP is concerned with protecting living people from suffering undue harm from changes made to their articles by uncaring anonymous accounts. Calling Chelsea by a name that misrepresents her gender and would very likely be harmful, possibly grievously so, as the poor woman seems to be already under severe mental stress. Syllogisms don't get much simpler, but if you're still not convinced, remember that recognized BLP experts right up to Jimbo have weighed in for Chelsea. FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's a whole section devoted to it at Talk:Chelsea_Manning#WP:BLP. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Sportfan5000 - Outside a few folks claiming that calling him Bradley is "sexual harrasment", I haven't seen anyone really point to which section of WP:BLP they feel is at issue. NickCT (talk) 22:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm skeptical of the applicability of many of the discussions of WP:COMMONNAME from several days ago. The situation has been evolving quickly, and more and more news sources have been switching to "Chelsea." What seemed a fairly even split in the immediate aftermath has become increasingly slanted towards Chelsea over the last day or two. Some of the earlier !votes are, simply put, obsolete. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- re " increasingly slanted towards Chelsea over the last day or two" - Agreed. That does seem to be the way the tide is turning, and I wouldn't be surprised if in a week or month's time the WP:COMMONNAME argument clearly supports "Chelsea". That said, WP:COMMONNAME didn't support "Chelsea" 5 days ago (when this change was initially made). NickCT (talk) 22:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but I'm not really sure what the value of discussing where the article should be five days ago is. We can't move the article five days ago, and if COMMONNAME is now pointing towards Chelsea that matters rather more than where it pointed five days ago. I mean, if people want to take David or Morwen to the ArbCom over five days ago, I suppose they can, but that's about the only forum where the correct location of the article as of five days ago seems relevant. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Phil Sandifer - Well look. You seem willing to accept that the initial move was probably bad. I may agree with you that the world seems to begun to catch up with WP's bad decision, so a move back isn't necessary, but I think the right thing to do here is acknowledge the initial mistake, move the page back to Bradley and then reassess. I still don't think we can confidently say the majority of RS have made the switch, though it might very well end up that we move to "Bradley" just for a couple weeks. NickCT (talk) 01:34, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I am terribly unpersuaded by the idea that there's some hazy fog of war here. Even if it is somewhere near an even split... we have sources that are somewhere between an even split and settled on Chelsea, a MOS that says to use Chelsea, BLP policy that says to avoid harm to the subject (which misgendering and misnaming both count as), and the past precedent in less politicized cases of prompt changes. The case for locating the article at "Bradley Manning" for any length of time seems terribly strained to me. Phil Sandifer (talk) 05:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- The MOS issue has been covered. It doesn't say we should use Chelsea. And no one has given a good explanation as to exactly how BLP applies. NickCT (talk) 13:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I am terribly unpersuaded by the idea that there's some hazy fog of war here. Even if it is somewhere near an even split... we have sources that are somewhere between an even split and settled on Chelsea, a MOS that says to use Chelsea, BLP policy that says to avoid harm to the subject (which misgendering and misnaming both count as), and the past precedent in less politicized cases of prompt changes. The case for locating the article at "Bradley Manning" for any length of time seems terribly strained to me. Phil Sandifer (talk) 05:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Phil Sandifer - Well look. You seem willing to accept that the initial move was probably bad. I may agree with you that the world seems to begun to catch up with WP's bad decision, so a move back isn't necessary, but I think the right thing to do here is acknowledge the initial mistake, move the page back to Bradley and then reassess. I still don't think we can confidently say the majority of RS have made the switch, though it might very well end up that we move to "Bradley" just for a couple weeks. NickCT (talk) 01:34, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but I'm not really sure what the value of discussing where the article should be five days ago is. We can't move the article five days ago, and if COMMONNAME is now pointing towards Chelsea that matters rather more than where it pointed five days ago. I mean, if people want to take David or Morwen to the ArbCom over five days ago, I suppose they can, but that's about the only forum where the correct location of the article as of five days ago seems relevant. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- COMMONNAME also points back to the five criteria in the preceding section. It also says
When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.
Even as some sources have made the switch, and -- as I said -- it's still questionable which name most sources use now, there remain issues of recognizable and naturalness (which, after all, are issues of how common a name is) with the name "Chelsea Manning". How big those issues are, whether those issues constitute "problems", is, of course, subjective, but I wouldn't be so quick to discount early supporting remarks referencing WP:COMMONNAME. -- tariqabjotu 02:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)- The closer, of course, will want to make a case by case judgment. Still, comments talking about lack of reliable sources using Chelsea made days ago are rapidly becoming obsolete. This surely counts for something. Phil Sandifer (talk) 05:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- At this point most of the articles are related to transgender issues and whether to use the name. The test will be a month from now when there will be little coverage. It is possible that mainstream media opposed to leaking will push Chelsea and the trans sexual issues a) for ratings and b) to downplay the government crimes issues and marginalize Manning's actions. Given that in various email forums and facebook groups I'm on that for years have touted activism for Manning's cause there was an immediate and almost total drop off in commentary following the announcement, it is not surprising that they've renamed the effort Private Manning Support Group. It's not that people are anti-trans, but that the newer issue takes a lot of study for many people to comprehend and feel connected to. And there's another war or two coming, so I already see major Manning supporter groups changing their focus to those issues. We'll see if the LGBT community, which tends to have a lot of pro-military supporters, is willing to take up the slack on the whistleblowing issue at all. In other words, time will tell Wikipedia wise. If WP:RS (not matter how biased) show the historical importance of whistleblowing is just a footnote to Chelsea's transexuality, so be it. User:Carolmooredc 12:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- The closer, of course, will want to make a case by case judgment. Still, comments talking about lack of reliable sources using Chelsea made days ago are rapidly becoming obsolete. This surely counts for something. Phil Sandifer (talk) 05:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- re " increasingly slanted towards Chelsea over the last day or two" - Agreed. That does seem to be the way the tide is turning, and I wouldn't be surprised if in a week or month's time the WP:COMMONNAME argument clearly supports "Chelsea". That said, WP:COMMONNAME didn't support "Chelsea" 5 days ago (when this change was initially made). NickCT (talk) 22:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, that's been stated, incorrectly: Wikipedia:MOS#Article_titles.2C_headings.2C_and_sections states explicitly, "The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title." - David Gerard (talk) 22:34, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- @FeydHuxtable - If you read through the conversations above you'll probably note some degree of consensus surrounding the idea that WP:COMMONNAME supports the use of "Bradley". Furthermore, as has been hashed out again and again MOS:IDENTITY isn't really intended to influence article titles. Additionally, no one has brought up a good explanation for how WP:BLP applies. NickCT (talk) 22:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- A month?!?!?! That's an unheard of wait for a name change like this. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Chelsea Now the Most Famous Transgender Inmate in America
Chelsea Manning Is Now the Most Famous Transgender Inmate in America. Will She Be Treated Humanely? Slate.com. By Amanda Hess | Posted Thursday, Aug. 22, 2013.
I think she may be one of the most famous trans women in the world as well. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- At the present time you'd have a hard job demonstrating she isn't the highest profile trans* person in the world. How this plays out long term we can't yet know, but it wouldn't surprise me if she remains in the top 10 for a long while. Thryduulf (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- Which one article provides more excuses to push a political agenda to the foreground rather than reflect what the person is best known for? User:Carolmooredc 12:23, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I understand your question. A person can be notable for many things and the trans issues simply are making everyone take pause while some on the religious right go apoplectic because OMG someone is changing their gender identity. Luckily the rest of the world is moving away from those tired views and Wikipedia can simply focus on what reliable sources bring forward. i think she is a major trans celebrity and newsrooms will soon be educating the world on more what it weans to transition and the legal hurdles one faces. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Okay a "major trans celebrity"? Come on now enough of the personal opinions already. Also what you are saying is WP:CRYSTAL anyways, Manning was more notable as Bradley this is proven by the fact that books have been written about him, as well as the majority of sources that followed the trial. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:37, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't appreciate the snide remarks and these aren't just my opinions these are how the rest of the world is moving progressively forward. Gay marriage means that Chelsea can marry the man or woman she chooses, this was simply not true even a few years ago. Chelsea is a transwoman and of course a celebrity, the article points out she is the most famous transgender inmate. Your disagreement is with Slate.com. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Again they are more of your personal opinions, come to think of it what does this have to do with improving the article if anything? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your lack of apology is noted. Again facts are not the same as my opinions although my opinions are rooted in factual evidence. As for the article i think we should reflect that when Chelsea came out s a transwoman she became a highly visible member of the trans community and the most famous transgender inmate in the U.S. Sportfan5000 (talk) 09:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Again they are more of your personal opinions, come to think of it what does this have to do with improving the article if anything? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't appreciate the snide remarks and these aren't just my opinions these are how the rest of the world is moving progressively forward. Gay marriage means that Chelsea can marry the man or woman she chooses, this was simply not true even a few years ago. Chelsea is a transwoman and of course a celebrity, the article points out she is the most famous transgender inmate. Your disagreement is with Slate.com. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Okay a "major trans celebrity"? Come on now enough of the personal opinions already. Also what you are saying is WP:CRYSTAL anyways, Manning was more notable as Bradley this is proven by the fact that books have been written about him, as well as the majority of sources that followed the trial. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:37, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I understand your question. A person can be notable for many things and the trans issues simply are making everyone take pause while some on the religious right go apoplectic because OMG someone is changing their gender identity. Luckily the rest of the world is moving away from those tired views and Wikipedia can simply focus on what reliable sources bring forward. i think she is a major trans celebrity and newsrooms will soon be educating the world on more what it weans to transition and the legal hurdles one faces. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Which one article provides more excuses to push a political agenda to the foreground rather than reflect what the person is best known for? User:Carolmooredc 12:23, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Lede too long?
The lede is one paragraph too long. Per WP:LEAD, amount of paragraphs must be no more than four. Perhaps details might not be mentioned elsewhere besides lede. --George Ho (talk) 22:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think this is an ironclad rule; the Hillary Rodham Clinton article has a five paragraph lead, despite repeated objections on this basis, because everyone there seems to think that each of the paragraphs deals with a particular and distinct part of her life. And the rule doesn't say that the "amount of paragraphs must be no more than four," it says "it should ideally contain no more than four paragraphs." I personally think that here too each paragraph deals with a distinct and important issue. YMMV. AgnosticAphid talk 23:07, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- If all of the information currently in the lead is to be retained, then I agree that each paragraph is distinct enough to remain separate. However, I don't think that the fifth paragraph is important enough to be in the lead; I think JohnValeron was right to move it. -sche (talk) 01:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- The lead should briefly summarize the response to the leaked material and sentence, which is what the final paragraph does. We currently have five paragraphs because the transgender announcement is a separate one. When things die down, that might be incorporated into one of the other paragraphs, or it might not given that it's quite distinct from the other issues. But this is not the right time to make that kind of editorial decision. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:37, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- It passed GA with basically the same lead and the reviewer did seem to think it was a big deal. Consensus does appear to be fine with it. If it were to go for FA it would probably have to be incorporated into 4.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:05, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- The lead should briefly summarize the response to the leaked material and sentence, which is what the final paragraph does. We currently have five paragraphs because the transgender announcement is a separate one. When things die down, that might be incorporated into one of the other paragraphs, or it might not given that it's quite distinct from the other issues. But this is not the right time to make that kind of editorial decision. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:37, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Comments on some propositions and sources
Dear Wikipedians
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Regards Teamkric
I received and e-mail purportedly from Teamkric asking me to post the comment above. I'm not going to make an assessment as to how relevant the comments are. If some other editor feels this section ought to be collapsed or moved, I would not oppose. NickCT (talk) 01:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:Soapbox. Please collapse. User:Carolmooredc 12:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Everything here is just opinion...point #6 is a falsehood, though; Manning is a convicted criminal...a convicted spy, no less. The death penalty was a possibility, even, though the prosecutors chose not to seek it. Tarc (talk) 13:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Indeed Manning is a convicted criminal. Whether you agree what they did was a crime or not is irrelevant. It is also completely irrelevant to what name or gender this page should use. Thryduulf (talk) 13:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hm, I believe I read #6 wrong, it read at first like this "Teamkric" was suggesting that manning was not a criminal, when in fact he was rebutting the claim made by others. Tarc (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Indeed Manning is a convicted criminal. Whether you agree what they did was a crime or not is irrelevant. It is also completely irrelevant to what name or gender this page should use. Thryduulf (talk) 13:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Is Manning a criminal
Boldly hatting this as it serves little purpose per talk |
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While I don't follow the press on this religiously, I have read a number of articles. I don't think I have seen any reliable source that calls Manning "a criminal". Being convicted of a crime is definitely not the same as being a criminal, and the deduction of one from the other is a grave case of WP:OR. The most obvious case is that many people are wrongly convicted (i.e. they did not do the crime at all). Other cases are ones where people are convicted of "crimes" we don't accept as such e.g. Giordano Bruno, Rosa Parks, Mildred and Richard Loving, or, more recently, John Lawrence. And there are people that are convicted for "real" crimes, with a basis in fact, where we don't think the law was interpreted correctly. See White Rose or Charles T. Schenck. And there are even cases where the convicted "really" committed a "real" crime but that we still not call "criminals". Examples are Claus von Stauffenberg and Nelson Mandela. In short, unless there are actual reliable sources that call Manning directly "a criminal" (and none that dissent), we have no basis of doing so. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- He was convicted under the rules and regulations of the UCMJ and dishonorably discharged at the end of his sentence. That is equivalent to a felony conviction in civilian court and loses all civil rights that felons lose (e.g. he can't vote, own a firearm or run for public office) so yes he was convicted by a court recognized by the Supreme Court and the conviction is equivalent of a felony. --DHeyward (talk) 06:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's hilarious. The Atlantic has referred to him as a criminal. So has the Huffington Post ("she is a convicted criminal"). New York Daily oped piece. At RT.com. National Review Online. Etc.
- Besides, the WP:OR comment is revisionist. Are you going to change the definition in Wiktionary to delete "Criminal - one guilty of breaking the law"? I'm still laughing at this, the fact that Manning wasn't convicted of a "real" crime. Talk about a WP:FRINGE view. All of the major news sources report that Manning was convicted of multiple felonies - a good number have stated he was a criminal - the dictionary defines criminal as one found guilty of a crime - but he's not? That's rich. GregJackP Boomer! 06:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Check your sources. All of the ones you listed above are op-eds (i.e. opinions) and as such not reliable for statements of fact. At least one of them doesn't even say what you seem to think it says. And, assuming you refer to my text, I have not made a statement on Manning's conviction at all. I have given general examples that show that the step from "convicted" to "criminal" is highly non-trivial and hence WP:OR. And while this is something of a side issue, the US Supreme Court has had its moments of weakness, at least one of which I have listed above. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- While I completely agree that being a criminal is the same as being convicted of a crime, and so the premise of the comment you're responding to is kind of silly, I still find that the fact that Manning is in the categories "21st century American criminals" and "criminals from Oklahoma" is a little... non-neutral. I'm willing to accept that maybe the categories have a bad name and they should be proposed for a move in some other location. But I went to check Nelson Mandela's page to see if he was in a "south african criminals" category, because I would have found that odd, and I found that the category was instead "south African politicians convicted of crimes," which seems a lot less POV. Now, it's a good point that some of the media refers to her as a criminal, and certainly she is one under the dictionary definition of that term, but I still find myself feeling that using that word to describe her is POV given that the whole "is she a traitor or a hero" thing is so controversial and unsettled. AgnosticAphid talk 07:04, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Note that at least the dictionary Google uses to come up with definitions defines a criminal as "a person who has committed a crime", not "a person convicted of a crime". That leaves at least two questions - did a person do a certain act, and was that act a crime. For Manning, the first is clear. The second is very much a matter of opinion, of which the court has had a weighty one, but by far not the only one. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- OK, let's look at the dicdefs of criminal.
- American Heritage Dictionary: 3.a. Guilty of crime
- Collins English Dictionary: 1. (Law) a person charged with and convicted of crime
- Random House Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: 2. guilty of crime
- Blacks Law Dictionary: 2. One who has been convicted of a crime
- Marriam-Webster Dictionary: 3. guilty of crime
- It's fairly clear cut. GregJackP Boomer! 12:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agree. One of your 5 examples speaks of restricted usage in law, and 3 others require factual guilt, not just conviction. So my interpretation is overwhelmingly supported by your selection of sources ;-). Somehow I suspect your interpretation differs (though I don't know how). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:51, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- OK, let's look at the dicdefs of criminal.
- But, I mean, it's really indisputable that she's at a minimum actually guilty of the charges she pled guilty to, like (I think?) some of the theft and computer access charges, right? Isn't the question really whether we want to attach the moral opprobrium that's inevitably attached to the word "criminal"? That's why I thought Nelson Mandela was a good example. AgnosticAphid talk 07:15, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- A guilty plea is a procedural technicality. People have been found innocent (both factually and legally) after guilty pleas. But apart from that, I agree. Note that this cuts both ways. Assume Al Capone had died 1928, never convicted. Would that make him less of a criminal? I agree that in most cases "convicted of a crime" is a much better and more neutral description than "criminal", as per the South Africa example you gave. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:39, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- our criminal categories contain people who have been 'convicted by history' as it were - so for people where the bulk of reliable sources say 'x murdered y', even if never convicted, they can still be placed in those categories - which is also why most such cats don't have an absolute requirement of conviction - otherwise murder/suicides would not be allowed either. The Mandela point illustrates that y'all need to learn how categories work - he is in the politicians-convicted-of category, whose parent category is... Drumroll.... South African CRIMINALS. You are confusing the pejorative/colloquial use of the word criminal with the neutral dictionary definition, which is its intent for Wikipedia categorization purposes. Manning is in 3 criminal cats for the same reason an actress or politician or novelist may be in several cats - we have a category tree and should populate it, and Manning has been diffused to relevant and valid categories. If you disagree with the cats, the correct procedure is to nominate them for deletion.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 11:55, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, that's a good point! But it still seems completely unnecessary to use the concededly, if perhaps not necessarily, pejorative word "criminal" in her category when the much more neutral phrase "convicted of a crime" will do. AgnosticAphid talk 15:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- our criminal categories contain people who have been 'convicted by history' as it were - so for people where the bulk of reliable sources say 'x murdered y', even if never convicted, they can still be placed in those categories - which is also why most such cats don't have an absolute requirement of conviction - otherwise murder/suicides would not be allowed either. The Mandela point illustrates that y'all need to learn how categories work - he is in the politicians-convicted-of category, whose parent category is... Drumroll.... South African CRIMINALS. You are confusing the pejorative/colloquial use of the word criminal with the neutral dictionary definition, which is its intent for Wikipedia categorization purposes. Manning is in 3 criminal cats for the same reason an actress or politician or novelist may be in several cats - we have a category tree and should populate it, and Manning has been diffused to relevant and valid categories. If you disagree with the cats, the correct procedure is to nominate them for deletion.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 11:55, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- A guilty plea is a procedural technicality. People have been found innocent (both factually and legally) after guilty pleas. But apart from that, I agree. Note that this cuts both ways. Assume Al Capone had died 1928, never convicted. Would that make him less of a criminal? I agree that in most cases "convicted of a crime" is a much better and more neutral description than "criminal", as per the South Africa example you gave. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:39, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Note that at least the dictionary Google uses to come up with definitions defines a criminal as "a person who has committed a crime", not "a person convicted of a crime". That leaves at least two questions - did a person do a certain act, and was that act a crime. For Manning, the first is clear. The second is very much a matter of opinion, of which the court has had a weighty one, but by far not the only one. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- While I completely agree that being a criminal is the same as being convicted of a crime, and so the premise of the comment you're responding to is kind of silly, I still find that the fact that Manning is in the categories "21st century American criminals" and "criminals from Oklahoma" is a little... non-neutral. I'm willing to accept that maybe the categories have a bad name and they should be proposed for a move in some other location. But I went to check Nelson Mandela's page to see if he was in a "south african criminals" category, because I would have found that odd, and I found that the category was instead "south African politicians convicted of crimes," which seems a lot less POV. Now, it's a good point that some of the media refers to her as a criminal, and certainly she is one under the dictionary definition of that term, but I still find myself feeling that using that word to describe her is POV given that the whole "is she a traitor or a hero" thing is so controversial and unsettled. AgnosticAphid talk 07:04, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Per plain meaning of the English language "somebody convicted of a crime" == "a criminal". Using dictionary definitions is not original research. Jehochman Talk 12:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- That mess? I don't think it's a good idea to cite Middle East conflicts as an example to follow elsewhere! If somebody wants to put Manning in a category "convicted criminals" (s)he definitely is. I am not sure it is necessary to use the word criminal after the conviction has already been explained in the article. That might be redundant or poor style. It would depend on the context. Jehochman Talk 15:08, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Response from Teamkric
Dear all,
(1) Thanks for the feedback that my initial post had veered into WP: Soapbox. I have looked at that page as well as "Talk page guidelines" before writing this and have endeavoured to comply with those requirements. Please let me know if I have made any other errors. (2) I would like to "discuss issues relating to verification", namely that some important aspects of the discussion may have been conducted without any "reliable sources" being cited, or with sources cited which may not in fact support the statements they are said to support, and to "discuss how the points of view of reliable sources should be included in the article". (3) What is the verifiable source for the proposition (made on this page in a number of places in various ways) that "…there is a general consensus in the scientific/medical community that gender can change…", as in that gender is a subjective and plastic matter to be determined, and changed if desired, by the individual? The DM-V is the most commonly cited source for this proposition but I have looked at the DM-V and am concerned it does not verify the proposition and may in fact verify the reverse propositon, ie somethign along the lines that “gender is immutable and all that can change is aspects of the expression of gender”. I provided some quotes from the DM-V to evidence why that might be the case above. (4) What is the verifiable source for the proposition (made on this page in a number of places in various ways) that: "the most recently expressed preference of the individual concerned should be determinative of pronoun choice in Wikipedia articles"? (5) If the answer to (4) is “MOS: Identity”, then what is the verifiable source for the proposition that the MOS: Identity guideline should have precedence over WP: Verifiability or any other verifiable source, such as the OED (my copy, which cannot be more than a few years old, frames all of its definitions of the following terms on the basis of biological determinism: “he”, “she”, “man”, “woman”, “male” and “female”). Why is it a “fringe” position (as described above in a number of places in various ways) to be in favour of a biological basis for pronoun choice when there is a high quality verifiable source that supports this approach? (5.1) If the answer to (5) is that some leeway for MOS: Identity to take precedence should be allowed where the factual inaccuracy that would result is minor in nature and uncontroversial, what is the basis for concluding those criteria are met in this case? (5.2) If the answer to (5) is that some leeway for MOS: Identity to take precedence should be allowed where offense might result (such as BLP concerns), that is adequately discussed above. (6) What is the verifiable source for the statement (made above) that “Individuals have the right to define themselves”? And thanks again for your patience as I take my baby steps here on Wikipedia. Regards Teamkric Posted by NickCT on behalf of Teamkric
Again, I received an e-mail purportedly from Teamkric asking me to post the comment above. Again, I'm not going to make an assessment as to how relevant the comments are. If some other editor feels this section ought to be collapsed or moved, I would not oppose. NickCT (talk) 12:06, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Other-language wikis
I find it fascinating to see how other-language Wikipedias are dealing with this issue. While I realize this won't be relevant as a deciding factor for the naming of this article, I invite you, if you speak any other languages or can use Google Translate, to peruse the talk pages of this page on other wikis. It's interesting to see which ones have made the switch and which haven't, and what their rationales are. In many cases, the discussion has been almost as vigorous as ours has. Moncrief (talk) 16:27, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I noticed that too Moncrief (because people were talking on Facebook and mailing lists about the German, French and I think Swedish discussions) -- and yes, people are saying all the discussions are unusually vigorous. I think that's partly due to Manning being, in general, a famous and controversial figure -- but much more, I think it's specifically tied to the transgender aspect.
- Reading this page, it's felt to me like there are two simultaneous overlapping conversations happening here (with many of the same editors involved in both): one narrowly focused on article titles and existing policies, and another about how transgender people are portrayed on WP, in general. And there seems to be very little consensus on the latter, with expressed views ranging from ones that seem to me to be well-researched and thoughtful, versus those that seem more impulsive and not visibly informed by any expertise or research (like the "what if I woke up and wanted to be a dog" stuff).
- Now that we know this is a contentious area and one where there's a policy gap, I wonder if it's worth interested people doing some sustained thinking and talking and policy development on trans issues. Or, someone should point me towards policy if it exists and I just don't know about it :-) Sue Gardner (talk) 15:06, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well WP:BLP is the overarching policy, but the MOS:IDENTITY guidance is afaik the only specific thing we have. There is also a WP:Gender identity essay that has relevance. Thryduulf (talk) 15:42, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Move Page
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think it should be moved back to Bradley Manning for now. His name change to Chelsea Manning has no legal effect yet, and since when has Wikipedia simply used the preferred name instead of the name that the public uses. Chelsea Manning is not the name used to address him in court, nor is it used by any major media organization when discussing him, not his newfound gender identity. user:Purplepox01 20:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- If you want to you can add this as a support to move this back to Bradley in the move discussion above. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Many news organizations -- led by the AP, the biggest of them all -- have switched to Chelsea now, and Chelsea is widespread enough that if we move her page back, it will be seen by many as a political statement by Wikipedia to reject the new name. Also, her (the female pronouns are the ones that should be used) gender identity isn't "newfound;" she has considered herself female for years now, it's just now being made public. Dralwik|Have a Chat 20:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is also a political statement for Wikipedia to accept the new name, worse the fact that we made headlines for doing so. WP:TITLECHANGES says to have the move discussion first when it comes to things like this. As for sources I still see CNN using Bradley, books have been written about Bradley, and in the media there are articles about how the name game is still being fought. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- True, but Wikipedia would have been forced to make a political statement either way on the name; there simply isn't any neutral third party name to call her by. CNN is a valid refutation, although the books are not, since they're from before the name announcement. Personally, I think both sides have good arguments for the title of the page; my main hope is that the female pronouns remain in the body of the article regardless of the title decision. Dralwik|Have a Chat 21:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- As noted by Jumbo on Margaret Thatcher's page she is referred to as Roberts so yes I can see both pronouns being used. This section should be closed, nothing is going on here that is not already up in the move request. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- True, but Wikipedia would have been forced to make a political statement either way on the name; there simply isn't any neutral third party name to call her by. CNN is a valid refutation, although the books are not, since they're from before the name announcement. Personally, I think both sides have good arguments for the title of the page; my main hope is that the female pronouns remain in the body of the article regardless of the title decision. Dralwik|Have a Chat 21:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is also a political statement for Wikipedia to accept the new name, worse the fact that we made headlines for doing so. WP:TITLECHANGES says to have the move discussion first when it comes to things like this. As for sources I still see CNN using Bradley, books have been written about Bradley, and in the media there are articles about how the name game is still being fought. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think this is an important reminder, that NPOV isn't NO point of view (that'd be impossible), but NEUTRAL point of view. I seem to remember reading an essay or something that contained a similar concept, although I cannot find it now (Found it during the writing of the post, it turns out it comes from WP:NPOVFAQ ("a "view from nowhere"..." is not our aim!" (also, worst paraphrase ever, but I'm feeling lazy))) . No matter what we do, it is going to mean something politically. It is going to make headlines. And that's not "bad", it's *completely irrelevant*. Wikipedia does not shy away from topics merely because they are controversial, and given this, it means that there are cases that we must say something that is going to make waves. The only question is "what fulfills our policies of verifiable, non biased explanations, while fulfilling our duty to accuracy that we have when writing the biography of a living person". Or at least, that's how I would explain the question in front of us.Cam94509 (talk) 21:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The BBC, The Independent, and Reuters (see caption) also haven't seem to have changed to "Chelsea Manning" yet. And that doesn't even touch upon the fact that it'll be awhile, I imagine, before we see "Chelsea Manning" in a title, where they can't say "formerly known as Bradley". Note, for example, that even though The New York Times has announced that they will refer to Manning as Chelsea, they have not updated their Manning page that has the subject's name at the top. Also, this concern about what moving the article back might signal is misplaced; the article should not have been moved until this consensus-building discussion took place, and we should not allow the publicity efforts by the admin who moved the article dissuade us from moving it back if that's what the result of this discussion requests. -- tariqabjotu 21:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Discussion closed, please carry on here as you wish.
The formal move discussion is closed and pending review by the three-admin panel; anyone who wishes to keep discussing the matter is free to do so, just not within the parameters of the closed discussion. Cheers! bd2412 T 15:41, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
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