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    WP:CIVIL, edit warring, and user talk page violations by The Banner

    Close. I don't care if anyone disputes this because I've known The Banner for a while--since no one else wishes to close it, I think you understand that this isn't going anywhere. The Banner, I strongly urge you to exercise caution and put on kid gloves, and to seek better ways of addressing problems ("continue to seek", whatever). The others: consensus is one thing, but a rule of the majority is another. All of you: seek proper dispute resolution. Get the experts in (oh! you ARE an expert! get MORE experts in). Move on. Drmies (talk) 13:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This post is a request for a simple warning to the title editor on the subject of edit warring, civility, and adherence to WP:CONSENSUS, and that he be required to remove material added to his user Talk page stating his intent to disregard WP:CONSENSUS and expressing a negative view of other editors in apparent violation of the user Talk page guidelines.

    On the article Organic food, The Banner repeatedly restored material to the lede that had been removed by other editors, who had offered the explanations that it was poorly sourced and covered material not addressed in the body of the article as required by WP:LEAD. The material was repeatedly restored with the explanations:

    • That the removal of the material in question was "annoying"
    • In response to a request that he discuss his concerns on the Talk page, he reverts again stating that the editor (myself) making this request was engaging in "whitewash"
    • Reaching his third reversion and unable to continue, he finally comes to the Talk page and again accuses me of "whitewashing inconvenient information".

    This event seen in isolation is certainly not the largest behavior issue of the month at Wikipedia, and I probably did not help the situation by failing to recognize that an edit described by The Banner in his edit summary as a reversion actually contained new citations. But it is troubling in the context provided by his user page, which

    • States that he intends to pursue his individual ideas about what is best for the encyclopedia irrespective of consensus. As I understand it, this is a violation of user page guidelines
    • Features a picture of an individual being run over by a truck, with the caption "Unconventional but effective support for Wikipedians involved in the War against Vandalism, POV-pushing, Spamming and bad faith edits". Overall the page expresses a lack of confidence in other editors with respect to their good faith and / or competence and reinforces the previous comment about ignoring WP:CONSENSUS.

    I respectfully request a simple warning regarding adherence to WP:GF, [[WP:CIVIL}, WP:CONSENSUS and that he be required to remove material stating his intent to disregard WP:CONSENSUS from his user page. With respect to my own behavior in this incident, I'll stipulate that it was not by any means perfect, and that I undertook 3 reversions in 24 hours for what I believe to be the first time in my career as an editor here. I'll do better in the future. Formerly 98 (talk) 16:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    It would be far better when a large bunch of editors start looking at what is really happing at the article Organic food. To my opinion the article is hopelessly POV and unnecessary vague and negative due to the constant removal of anything positive. The article is victim of misusing of WP:MEDRS, that is used to remove everything what can remotely seen as a health claim, like the chemical contents of an item. Even when you publish a statement sourced by an item published by an university or agricultural college, it can be removed as being in conflict with WP:MEDRS (while organic food is about agriculture, not about health or healthcare).
    The article is completely ring fenced and there are always a few people at hand to step in and help out. The consensus Formely 98 is not a real one, just one of a good organised and very loud group. The many discussions on the talkpage are proof of that.
    In fact, in this case it is Formerly 98 who is POV-pushing and removing a sentence that is backed up by three sources. And he removed it without an explanation but with a warning that I could be blocked. That warning is what is very friendly described as "unfriendly behaviour", I have saved him the word starting with a "b" and containing a "y". This AN/I discussion seems the reflection of an editor not winning the discussion on arguments... The Banner talk 17:28, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Banner became frustrated a long while ago in the organics articles, that other editors (Like me) insist that health claims about food need sources that comply with WP:MEDRS, and he has taken to personal attacks about "whitewashing" etc for quite a while. He has been asked many times to stop. Difs of his disruptive comments:
    It just goes on and on (there are many more of these). I've just been letting it go as I have had enough of drama boards. But Formerly just asked Banner to strike Banner's last personal attack of "whitewashing" which Banner blew off, writing "Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up". Since he seems unable to contribute constructively to the topic anymore, I suggest a topic ban for him. Jytdog (talk) 00:40, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And this fits perfectly in the way the people operate there. This is not trying to discuss things, this is plain bullying. The Banner talk 01:51, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    In fact, just give me that topic ban. I accept it. The only thing it proves is the moral bankruptcy of the CABAL operating at Organic food, who do not care about the encyclopaedia. Too bad they sacrifice a potential good article to their own ideas and refuse to start meaningful discussions, bu know how to waive with policies, guidelines and essays to bully everybody away. Is six months enough for your vindication? The Banner talk 02:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The Banner on the chance that your opening words were not meant in irony: if you will agree to voluntarily stay away from the organics topic I will withdraw my recommendation and we can avoid more drama. Do tell. Jytdog (talk) 07:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not frustrated about MEDRS, I am frustrated about the misuse of MEDRS to remove everything that is positive, making this article overly negative and vague. The Banner talk 04:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The Banner (and to explain the background a bit more for the closer) I understand that you really believe that eating organically produced food makes you healthier. But the science doesn't support that belief. Most of that is just due to the messiness of reality -- the variability of the food produced by any method, and the difficulty and expense of studying the effect of eating foods so barely different, in such a way that produces really definitive results. Based on WP's PAG, we just cannot make the kind of definitive statements you want to make, based on your belief. I am sorry you are so frustrated with that, and I am sorry that you have allowed your frustration to make you a disruptive presence in the organics articles. You really threw down the gauntlet when you refused to strike your personal attack and wrote "Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up". In my view that leaves the community little choice but to pick the gauntlet up and topic ban you. Jytdog (talk) 15:42, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a very interesting statement that you make here. In fact you say that the scientific research is unreliable due to many factors that can not be taken into account when testing food due to the messiness of reality. Still, you use it as a reason to remove sourced content. Why?
    I have many times asked for a proper reasoning about why WP:MEDRS is used on an article that is clear in the remit of agriculture. The answer was always health-claims. But unfortunately, the definition of "Health-claim" commonly used is rather fuzzy. And it is interesting to see that many so called "health-claims" are rejected due to the scientific research that you just called unreliable due to the messiness of reality.
    It is also interesting that you now go into personal remarks about what you think I believe. Unfortunately, you are wrong in your line of thinking. Combined with the "gauntlet", I just see a failure of AGF. It would be rather spectacular when I get a topic ban due to the sourcing of unsourced text. The Banner talk 17:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support topic ban. The Banner has been edit warring on this page in the past (though never quite crossing 3RR ) and warned about it [1]. The main issue appears to be that the editor is very reluctant to go to the talk page as multiple reverts seem to occur first when a dispute arises rather than going to the talk page once a dispute is apparent. These edit summaries demonstrate the main incident I've been involved in:
    1. Myself asking for discussion on newly added content without a source: "removing per WP:STATUSQUO. If it's going to be included, continue to discuss and reach consensus on the talk page on an appropriate source and proposed content relevant to the source."[2]
    2. Reverted. My response: "Multiple users have pointed out issues with the sourcing of the content on the talk page. Please join the conversation rather than edit war."[3]
    3. "Reverted. My response: Again, please join the discussion on the talk page if you feel strongly per WP:BRD. We need a source, not reverts here." [4]
    So, that was three times I had to ask for talk page discussion where everyone else was at least while The Banner kept reverting. This was awhile ago, but it looks like this pointy behavior is continuing. Looking at the user's block logs for things like edit warring, disruptive editing, and battleground mentality, they should know better, but it doesn't seem like past history or more current warnings have helped in this article either. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:09, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support topic ban The Banner has already blown off all requests to revert or remove personal attacks, and seems unable to operate per WP:CIVIL and WP:CONSENSUS. I no longer think a warning will suffice. Formerly 98 (talk) 03:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support topic ban as well as a block. Editors should be given a second chance but not when they are not going to change and keep doing the same thing after being blocked. 23.27.252.213 (talk) 12:30, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Topic Ban As constant violation of WP:3RR, WP:CIVIL, and WP:CONSENSUS is unacceptable.Weegeerunner (talk) 18:33, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support banning this user completely This editor has an overall detrimental effect on Wikipedia. I have had a lengthy series of interactions with this user. In general he has been the least WP:CIVIL, the least collegial individual I have met in my 7 years on Wikipedia. He is a mass editor, primarily interested in inserting his WP:POV, his censorship, executed by his deletion of content. His constant tactic is to attack his accusers. I have collected a legacy of his hostile interactions with other users, which when I had it as part of my sandbox he successfully had deleted. So I have a lengthy page off line documenting at least 38 hostile interactions with other editors. Just let me know how to post that for your reading enjoyment. His favorite targets are relative novice editors. He is an excellent wikilawyer. He knows his tools, his intimidation tactics have scared most of them away--many have gone away permanently as in, they have stopped editing for wikipedia. I wasn't intimidated and spent weeks trying to protect content he was trying to delete (what he below calls following him around). I was successful 100% of the time in AfD debates-which shows the standards of work I deal with and shows how misguided he is. He still succeeded in speedy deletions, changing tactics before I could jump in. And ultimately he succeeded in attacking me. He found a friendly admin to tell me to back off, which I courteously did.
    The Banner has been blocked already 10 times that I can find. The user below has shown a link to each of those blocks. What were the reasons? Disruptive editing, 3RR, Personal attacks or harassment.
    The main message is: He has been given multiple second chances. Lightweight punishments keep getting suggested. He does not learn from them. Below he is literally sticking his tongue out at me; at all of the disciplinary actions that have taken place previously. Childish but true. They have had no effect. Look at the overall product of his work, you will find single minded obnoxiousness. His path of destruction will continue until we do something serious. He is the worst form of cyber bully and wikipedia does not need this as a representative. Reporting of the facts of his actions should not be regarded as a personal attack. Trackinfo (talk) 19:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I do think that this narrow topic ban would help. See his mass deletion of relevant content in nearly all topics you can think about. Also how fast he is given warnings and blames others of an edit war etc. I support Trackinfo s opinion. FFA P-16 (talk) 16:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Everything from "Support banning this user completely" to the signature was added by Trackinfo; it's not that the siteban advocate failed to sign. Trackinfo, go to Special:Contributions/The Banner and underneath "User contributions" you'll see a section For The Banner (talk | block log | uploads | logs | filter log), or something like that; that's the easiest way to reach https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3AThe+Banner. Nyttend (talk) 02:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Interesting, how many times are you going to ask for my complete removal, Trackinfo? You did it already several times and they all failed. Could you please be a bit more realistic and stop following me around? You have been warned before by an admin: [5] and here [6]. The Banner talk 03:18, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I have never asked for you to be banned completely in this forum before. On insignificant AfD and talk pages, yes. Now is the appropriate time, when others are also showing serious issues with your consistently bad attitude. Now is the time for someone with authority look at your overall negative body of work. They should look at your consistent incivility. Look below at your responses to Jytdog. That is a typical reaction from the Banner. His talk page is archived, 47 editions so far. Go to any one of them and you will probably find at least one other editor complaining about his edits, usually about deleting someone else's contributions, usually followed by uncivil conversation where Banner is always in the right (though he can be quite civil when his opponent retracts). His edits are constantly against the consensus of others involved with those same articles, but only one dominating personality can win those arguments, with Banner calling the other party on accusations of the techniques HE USES to bully his opponents. The concept is called Psychological projection. Look beyond this one case, this is a bad apple. And Banner; while I may not be bothering your daily activities, if you are not banned; each time you are brought back to ANI (and you will be, you've been here often) I'll be back urging your removal. The short message that you've never listened to, I'll say it here publicly: Clean up your act. More than 50 people offended by your "work" telling you that your deletions are improper, that you are obnoxious, uncivil, disruptive etc etc are not wrong. Everybody else is not crazy. You are. Trackinfo (talk) 22:40, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support indefinite topic ban. This editor has been persistently disrupted the organic food article with their disruptive WP:IDHT behavior. Yobol (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose The diffs demonstrated do not strike me as particularly astounding. The editor seems to be arguing against consensus in certain discussions, and the conduct represented do not strike me as particularly horrible or aggressive. One editor against five is in the minority and as long as they accept that consensus is against them, then that's fine. They are not disruptive. That's what has happened so far with what I garner. Additionally, people citing WP:CIVIL really need to point out -which- diff that's about. The ones presented do not make me remark that 'The Banner' is uncivil. Also, people citing 3RR edit warring violations need to cite reports where they actually reported them. Tutelary (talk) 22:48, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Tutelary thanks for your comments. Based on what is presented here I see how you could say that, as I neglected to bring evidence of disruptive behavior to the articles themselves. Here is some (by far not all) evidence on that front:
      • reverts removal of OR with no edit note
      • adding biased sourced (http://www.organicitsworthit.org)
      • edit warring to keep biased source
      • jumping in in order to edit war with edit note "no need for censorship of positive things"
      • again jumping in to edit war and again on same content
      • again jumping in to edit war with edit note "Sorry, this relevant as the MEDRS-guys often claim that a difference is not significant when they remove sources not to their liking"
      • there are many many more of these. Basically as the editing community (what he calls "the MEDRS guys") works to keep the article neutral and accurate and well-sourced, Banner operates disruptively to try to keep non-neutral or badly sourced content in the article. His behavior has just devolved to disruption. I haven't even pulled in things from the other organics articles yet. Thanks for raising the question of editing behavior. Jytdog (talk) 16:32, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, Jytdog, my complaint is that you are NOT keeping the article neutral but overly negative by refusing information and sources. You are trying to win a content conflict not by addressing the stated concerns but by chasing away critical editors or in my case trying to topic ban me. The Banner talk 23:08, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually I have been tolerating your disruptive editing and uncivil behavior. Again, you really threw down the gauntlet when you refused to strike your personal attack on Formerly and when he asked you to strike, wrote to him, "Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up". You have lost your self control and are revelling in it. In my view that leaves the community little choice but to pick the gauntlet up and topic ban you. Jytdog (talk) 01:03, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And again you are showing plain bad faith by assuming something that is not even close to the truth. The Banner talk 12:57, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not true? Difs.
    1) you again make personal attacks about whitewashing in edit notes and on Talk
    2) you are directly asked to strike the accusation/personal attack by Formerly a first time and again a second time
    3) you write "Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up"
    very true and backed by difs. and i have provided diffs above of disruptive Talk editing and disruptive article editing. its all there. I am not assuming anything. And with RfC/U gone, this forum is the only we can deal with your pattern of bad behavior. Again, you basically dared WP to take action against you instead of simply striking your personal attack and changing your behavior. I think it is time the community took action, since you cannot control yourself. Jytdog (talk) 13:14, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I was referring to your bad faith statement You have lost your self control and are revelling in it. And why are you not commenting about the part of research that is unreliable "due to the messiness of reality". Did you corner yourself with that statement? Come on, Jytdog, the only thing you want is to shut down a critical voice. Not because I am disruptive but because I am inconvenient. The Banner talk 12:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The diffs are there to see and I am describing your pattern of behavior. Jytdog (talk) 14:49, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The lack of self reflection on their behavior is more evidence that this topic ban needs to be placed. Yobol (talk) 14:11, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And do you really think a topic ban will improve the article? Or is it just step one to scare away all other critical voices? Jytdog stated above that most scientific research is unreliable, still only scientific research more or less positive is shot down, not the scientific research that is more or less negative. The Banner talk 13:58, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The issue here is your behavior, not the article's content. Jytdog (talk) 14:28, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, the problem is the content and the use of different systems to measure notability of new info. The Banner talk 23:08, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Support a narrow (article specific) topic ban. Those advocating community bans here are among the first to resort to personal attacks, confess to collating "sh*t-sheets" and have atrocious AFD contribution records as immovable inclusionists. But the attitude here with regard to specific topic areas is problematic and Jytdog has made a reasonable case for a topic ban, limited to those articles where there have been problems. But anything broader than that seems unwarranted. St★lwart111 08:38, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I've amended my position (reversed it, if you would). The ongoing discussions here have been enlightening and I'm quite glad they've remained open. What we've seen since my first contribution (2 weeks ago) is further and further refinement of the "issues". They still include The Banner's behaviour (in part) but watching those pushing for his topic ban interact without his active involvement in the area suggests there are other major problems here and many of them relate to content, not conduct. Those that do relate to conduct apply equally to some of those of both "sides". A plague on both your houses, if you like. There are many who seem to jump to personal attacks before WP:BRD and The Banner has been one of them in only a handful of related instances. I no longer think that applying a topic ban to him alone would resolve any of the substantive issues here, and so doing to would be contrary to our policies. This needs broader and more broadly applied restrictions. St★lwart111 11:00, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I would define the topic as "organic food". Concretely that would be Organic farming, Organic food, and Organic milk. Those are currently the articles about organic food where Banner has been acting disruptively. I would also include Organic farming as the same kinds of disputes have broken out there and that would be a place where Banner could easily carry on this behavior. Jytdog (talk) 13:08, 13 January 2015 (UTC) (amended per below Jytdog (talk) 14:32, 13 January 2015 (UTC))[reply]
    Thanks for supplying evidence that this is just a case of silencing. In regards to Organic farming, I have never edited there so I don't know why you think I was disruptive there. My last two edits on Organic milk were in July 2014, reverted by one Jytdog. Before that I have an edit in December 2013 and a few older, nearly all reverted. The Banner talk 13:58, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a good point, that you have not edited the Organic food article. I amended the statement above. My apologies.Jytdog (talk) 14:32, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, we institute topic-bans to prevent disruption so including an article in a topic ban because someone "could easily" be disruptive there is unlikely to be supported. It's not something I would support anyway. Organic milk looks similar - he has edited there, but not disruptively and not extensively. The problematic article would seem to be Organic food. St★lwart111 14:43, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Some comments by The Banner mentioned here indicate the editor is trying to "defend" the topic in general, so I don't think discussing a topic ban outside of just the article is entirely out of the question. Considering the editor has had problems with similar behavior in the past based on their block logs and those comments they've made, someone could make a decent case that the behavior is likely to keep occurring in closely related topics. That's also partly because there are a few different organic related articles out there. I'd personally just look for broad topic ban on organic food, but if the narrow approach is pursued, a short leash approach should be taken through a very direct warning that more bans will follow if problem behaviors pop up in other related articles as part of the remedy. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:05, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And other articles/topics can always be added later if Jytdog's predictions prove accurate. If The Banner wants to prove him right and so migrates the same behaviour to other articles, he would only have himself to blame. St★lwart111 23:09, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed. I'd just like to stress my main point there was that there's a history of this behavior not improving despite blocks already. A topic ban helps, but is a band-aid for a more widespread problem. Because of that, an admin warning would seem like a good minimum action besides a narrow topic ban in case the behavior isn't changed for the nth time. The behavior appears to be relatively widespread in addition to the very pointed examples for this article, so it seems like some ratcheting up is needed if these cycles of block/bans and going right back to the behavior issues afterwords continue. No one has really made a great case for wider community bans like you mentioned (nor do I think they are called for right now), but it does seem like there's enough to keep a short leash if this behavior keeps coming up in the future elsewhere. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:23, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it is in WP's interest to ban him from the organic food topic, but even just a ban from Organic food would be an improvement. Jytdog (talk) 15:25, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    A neutral article is in the interest of Wikipedia, not silencing a critical voice. The Banner talk 23:08, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    By the way: this edit, in which you removed a POV-tag, is rather symptomatic for what is happing on this article. I am definitively not the only one critical about the neutrality of the article. The Banner talk 22:19, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose If reliable sources say that organic foods are healthier than we should include that in the article. And I'm sure that there are probably many. Mr. Guye (talk) 22:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is why ANI can be difficult. Mr. Guye reliable sources say that we cannot say that organic food is healthier. That is exactly the point here. Your "probably sure" is not how we do things in WP. Please actually read the article and the sources cited there, and please see the discussion on the talk page about sources. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 22:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Remember that this conversation is based on editor behavior. If it were just a content dispute, this conversation wouldn't be at ANI. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:32, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    LOL, only because you refuse to admit that it is in basic just a content dispute. Talk:Organic_food#Neutrality is again evidence how MEDRS is misused, in this case to brush away a POV-tag. The Banner talk 23:27, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem is how you behave in content disputes as outlined above. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:44, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Interesting, so permanently saying NO in a content dispute is allowed, as that is what happening here. See for example this one: You can't place a POV flag if the basis of the POV challenge is a challenge to WP:MEDRS. Its wikipedia policy. {https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Organic_food&diff=642669126&oldid=642668116] In my opinion, that is misusing a guideline (as MEDRS is not a policy as claimed but "just" a guideline) The Banner talk 00:36, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. If The Banner has long-term civility and edit warring issues across the encyclopedia, then first of all a topic ban from natural foods is not going to address that. Second, I would question (but have not checked) how many of those editors favoring a topic ban are the ones who are having a content disagreement on this article, or who have had run-ins with The Banner in the past. That certainly entitles them to an opinion, but inasmuch as they are involved and there is clearly a heated content dispute afoot, that kind of !vote is not an appropriate way to apply behavioral sanctions. At a very minimum, anyone deciding the issue should discount the vote and look at their actual edits and comments. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:54, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      My brief experience wading into this article suggests there is a serious problem with POV editors camping out to establish a scientific rather than encyclopedic approach. As such, I have re-added a POV tag. This is all a legitimate matter of content discussion, but not a good place to allow a science cabal to assert ownership of an article about a subject largely outside the scope of science. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:04, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      I have been further warned not to add a POV tag. My attempt to describe the science there as science, etc., have been reverted. It's clear that there's a weird ownership issue on this particular article of smarmy science types who believe that the supremacy of peer-reviewed journal articles extends to food and taste. It's bizarre. Whatever civility problems The Banner may have, they've hit a dysfunctional editing environment here at this particular article. - Wikidemon (talk) 09:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      And going against that is what is called "disruptive behaviour" here... The Banner talk 14:28, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      Wikidemon the proposed topic ban is focused on the problem I am aware of. I interact little with Banner and have no comment at all on Banner's behavior elsewhere. That is a distraction from the issues at hand. Further, long-term disruption by an editor cannot be boiled down to a "content dispute". That is a mischaracterization - this is about behavior, not content. My sense is that you have not spent time investigating the history of the article and the discussions on Talk and the way that Banner has behaved, nor looked at the diffs we have provided. I encourage you to do that before you make the kind of judgement you are making. Jytdog (talk) 15:01, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      I would be frustrated too if an article was hijacked in this way on my watch, and I am indeed somewhat irritated by my brief exposure to the dysfunctional editing environment there — I just have the good sense to recognize lost battles rather than WP:BATTLE them. So, again, if TheBanner has a long term editing problem with how they react to reasonably perceived unencyclopedic editing practices, in this case a misplaced scientific focus of an article about food, then that ought to be addressed dispassionately by uninvolved editors, not used by the editors in question to enforce their point of view. Possibly this is no more than a dispute over the subject of the article, with neither side blinking but one side having a local consensus by numbers. The page is just fine as an article about the scientific evaluation of foods certified as organic, it would make a fine subsection or child article. It could be that the broader topic including the history, economics, production methods, politics, culinary evaluation, social perception, and so on, is a different article. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:08, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    When it comes to actual content, you're butting heads with very similar issues that editors have when first entering topics such as climate change, evolution, etc. Working in scientific topics is tough, especially when it's a new area for an editor. Folks at the talk page have discussed how you can start into the topic if you want, but being an encyclopedia means we reflect the science as our focus, and that has been upheld time and again. [7] Those are all things that if you want to discuss, that's better left at policy pages or the actual talk page. Here though we are discussing the behavior of The Banner. Whether a content dispute is "valid" or not is irrelevant when we're discussing when an editor acts inappropriately. Inappropriate actions are so whether someone thinks they are justified or not. There are dispute resolution options when someone wants to approach things civilly, but the whole case being brought here is that the user does not approach things civilly and users are tired of that specific disruption. If it was a content issues, we wouldn't be at this noticeboard. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:10, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikidemon I have looked over your contribs and I see you like to write about gastronomy, and were probably expecting a more "foodie" article on organic food. The essence of organic farming and organic food is its "purity" - that food produced organically is better (for the land, for the workers, for the consumer) because of how it is was made. In my view, people who want to learn about organic, want to understand how it is different from conventionally produced food. Much of that is handled in the organic farming article but things specific to food are addressed in the organic food article. Whether there are differences between organic and conventinally produced food, and what they might be, are questions that can be investigated with science. Now there may well be a "foodie" orientation that could add value to the article - I am not sure what that would be, but maybe content about organic restaurants, content bringing in overlaps with the Locavore movement (it appears that what differences in taste with regard to organic may be attributed to those overlaps)... stuff like that. There are ways your perspective could add value to the article. But that stuff is quite separate from what Banner has been doing, which has been disrupting the article because he has wanted content to be included that organic food is more healthy and that eating it makes people more healthy, and those claims have generally not been supported by reliable sources, and Banner has turned to disruptive behavior in protest. Jytdog (talk) 14:35, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And again you are making things up, Jytdog. It is not a protest, it is plain concern about how a few people can keep an article POV and overly negative by applying a guideline (not a policy as is often claimed) that should not be applied at all. And what you do is just trying to silence a critical voice. The Banner talk 11:22, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • My point on the topic ban proposal is exactly as I say, that: (i) if The Banner's run-ins with other editors are broader than this one topic (which they may be if you do an archive search , then shooing them away on an article-by-article basis isn't useful; and (ii) complaints and !votes coming from one side of a POV dispute should be weighed carefully. The whole question of science and food comes in only inasmuch as this is a bona fide POV dispute, not one editor pushing fringe content. Being an encyclopedia means applying a scientific POV to claims about science, not to all of human knowledge. Whereas the "essence" of the organic food movement may be about meeting consumer desires for health, and environmental and social responsibility, the realization of those desires is an industry, a certification, distribution and retail channels, and a genre of food, which means that any intersection with science is only partial. - Wikidemon (talk) 15:13, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    What I have been saying all along is we should look at this user's overall pattern of negativity. I have zero involvement with this topic. A small topic ban will not solve The Banner's general hostility to the opinions of other, well meaning editors (essentially forcing his POV); his constant incivility; and his mass deletion of relevant content. I fear this is about to fall off the ANI list into the archives with no resolution and he'll continue to get away with this pattern of activity . . . that is at least until he is back here again--as the above notation demonstrates he's apparently been in ANI 48 times already. Trackinfo (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And what is the relevance of that? Are you so desperate to get me blocked that you start using every form of harassment to get what you want? While you have been warned by an admin to stop harassing me multiple times? Want to keep gambling with that? The Banner talk 12:56, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I do think that this narrow topic ban would help at the article in question at least. Problems in other topics just establish the editor has been made aware of the problem behavior many times for the purpose of this ANI. If someone wants to pursue issues in a wider range, probably better to take a similar approach to WP:ROPE and see what happens after action on this specific topic. This has been open for 11 days now with one oppose actually asking about behavior with some good conversation following that, so maybe it would be helpful if an admin would give their assessment of consensus at this point unless more folks have comments on The Banner's behavior? Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I would agree WP:ROPE would give everybody a chance to either see a correction in his behavior or to finally rid ourselves of him. What it takes is follow up. Like I said, he's been in ANI 48 times, this has been here you say for 11 days and yet nobody has taken the action to look at his record. Yes, its massive. He is on the cusp of being a top 1,000 editor and there are literally thousands of edits he's made that are protested by other editors; in hostile retorts to those protests; or defending his actions here and elsewhere. So let him hang himself, but it takes serious follow up, essentially a full time job. I tried to follow him for just a short period of time and it is too much labor to fight every hostile thing he does. And he bites. Of course, I'm not an admin. I did it the right way for an editor. For each erroneous deletion, I came back with multiple sources. That takes the defender much more work than his snap delete policy. So the investigation could be exhausting. He is great spouting off policy excuses, he will wikilawyer you on every point, repeatedly, but its all Bullshit. When do you say, enough is enough? He has already used up more than enough rope for me. Trackinfo (talk) 09:28, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Trackinfo, how many times are you warned to stop harassing me? I guess you did not get that message at all. The Banner talk 12:28, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    So folks, my appeal to get an Administrator to seriously look at this guy will get you this: "Stop icon This is your only warning; if you purposefully and blatantly harass a fellow Wikipedian again, as you did at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. The Banner talk 12:58, 18 January 2015 (UTC)" Trackinfo (talk) 14:54, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Don't forget to tell that admin Drmies has already told you twice to stop harassing me. Trackinfo! The Banner talk 16:22, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note - Banner's disruptive behavior of making personal attacks has been continuing, even as we are discussing his behavior here:
      • dif not getting it, saying this ANI is about content. "I have accepted by now that it is hopelessly POV and that you can get topic banned by pointing at that. "
      • dif just today: continuing the personal attacks, "Because you fail to acknowledge that it is in fact a content-conflict as that would be inconvenient for your cause". He doesn't even understand the problem. WP:IDHT Jytdog (talk) 14:51, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Irrefutable proof of...something.
      • Jytdog, are you serious? You call those statements "personal attacks"? The Banner does, it is true, use strong language every now and then, but I see nothing here that is even worth discussing, and I get the feeling that some (who aren't editors of that article, for instance) are just looking for an excuse to get Banner in trouble. Now, if the aggravating circumstances are to be found in some words and a picture on Banner's user page, I suggest that Formerly 98 removed the image from their talk page that proves without a shadow of a doubt that they are a troll. I'm kidding. Drmies (talk) 22:01, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You have to admit, I'm a good-looking guy....:>) Formerly 98 (talk) 22:08, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Formerly 98, I was pleased to be able to copy something fun and immediately appropriate here. Thanks for making my argument for me! Seriously, I don't think you'll gain much traction here from Banner's user page, which is probably why no one who isn't involved with the organic bit seems to have commented here... Thanks, Drmies (talk) 00:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe its just me Drmies, but I'd say there is a difference between posting a tongue-in-cheek self portrait on one's userpage, and declaring one's intent to ignore Wikipedia guidelines and edit war on the other. Formerly 98 (talk) 04:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It's been stressed multiple times above and elsewhere to The Banner that a content dispute is not an excuse for behavior like this, but they keep going back to saying this is just a content dispute. Attempts to direct them towards the issue of their behavior in a helpful and good faith are met with hostility as can be seen in the responses throughout this poist. In the example diffs I gave above, I also left The Banner a warning on their talk page after constantly refusing to come to the article talk page, followed by The Banner leaving a warning on my talk page about edit warring for trying to get them to start discussing [8]. I tried to stress that the reason their reverts were being reverted was because they were ignoring repeated requests to come to the talk page [9], but it seems by that exchange that this user is more interested in going after those who point out their problem behavior. As Jytdog mentioned, definite IDHT behavior than acknowledging a problem, so it doesn't seem any amount of discussion will alleviate the issue, hence why we're here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:17, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Kingofaces43, what I see is three diffs from August of last year where you revert the addition of apparently verified content with a somewhat lame reference to STATUS QUO--one man's status quo is another man's impeding progress. If those reverts are the extent of Banner's disruption (a half a year ago), well...and have you noted that, if Banner is edit warring there, then you are too? Drmies (talk) 00:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Drmies, I wouldn't call it blatant edit warring on my part (at least in comparison). How else are we supposed to respond when an editor ignores a current ongoing discussion? Remember that each time I had to ask for the talk page discussion to continue or for The Banner to rejoin the conversation rather than edit war contrary to the current discussion. The whole problem was that The Banner was trying to circumvent the discussion. The spirit of WP:EW is that we try to engage in discussion when there is a disagreement on content (as I was doing). I was trying to re-engage The Banner in discussion to bring them back to the conversation each time rather than trying to fight for content. Perspective matters here, so it's helpful to remember there was already discussion going on before the linked reverts.
    Basically, another editor added the content unsourced, discussion ensued. They brought some sources they thought would work, but the sources didn't' support the content as there was some orignial research going on to make the statement. There was quite a bit of discussion about this under the Perceptions heading I linked you to. The Banner had been involved in that conversation too, so he knew about it. At that point there was no consensus for a source that worked for the content and we were in the process of finding sources that would work. That's why I removed the unsourced content (the status quo comment) citing the ongoing work at the talk page since we were actively trying to rework the content and find sources. That's pretty standard practice for challenged new content, especially if unsourced while its being discussed and reworked. Keep in mind this was all before the reverts by The Banner, so there was plenty of talk page discussion. Then he tried to reinsert the content with the source that had been challenged already. I reverted pointing him back to the ongoing talk page discussion that he had already been involved in, but the reverts continued. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:32, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Also just to be clear, I never claimed this was the only incident of disruption at the article. I just gave it as a single example of the problematic behavior that I've experienced to keep things concise. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:38, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Drmies thanks for commenting, and for injecting some fun into the discussion. {i love that self-portrait :) } As I wrote above, I've been ignoring Banner's constant focus on contributors not content on Talk and the nasty remarks he keeps making, and his edit warring to retain any piece of crap content that is added as long as it is "positive" about organic food, and have asked him to contribute constructively. But when he threw down the gauntlet I felt he crossed the line. He has thrown AGF completely out the window and has not used any DR processes and has just degenerated into disrupting the article. It's time for him to go. At any point in this discussion he could have said, "hey, ok, i've been acting like a dick because i'm frustrated. sorry, I will use DR processes and chill out on Talk." he has come nowhere even near that - instead he is now making martyr-ish remarks. really it's time for him to be topic banned. Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 00:00, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Jytdog, I just don't see it. We've topic-banned plenty of people on this very board, but I don't see how Banner's behavior is a matter of reproach in the first place. I have skimmed the talk page and I may have missed a note or two, but what I expected to find there was some serious hardcore discussion of sources, and I don't see it. And the other thing I expected was maybe an RfC or two about the specific wording of this change or that, and I don't see that either. One could easily flip the tables and say that one editor is here being gang-tackled by a group of editors who also (note Kingofaces's linked edits) removed sourced content--and, one should add, this is supposed to be a two-way street: did you all seek dispute resolution? Finally, I don't see the personal attacks or the persistent focus on contributors, not content, that Banner is accused of. Can we not use our time more productively on the talk page? Have you considered 3O, or soliciting the opinion of some MEDRS experts? Later, Drmies (talk) 00:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for asking questions here Drmies (I'd rather see that than just support/opposes). I won't have time to respond to much else than this until later, but if you're referring to my three diffs up at my support post, you might have misread the situation. The content was originally unsourced by another user, and some discussion was already ongoing with multiple editors at the time before The Banner even added it, but there wasn't consensus that it was appropriate for the content well before my links. We basically were discussing a lot, but The Banner seemed to decide to just go ahead and add/revert the sources and content in. It's a little ways back (and a bit of read), but the conversation was here [10]. I'll comment on the other things later tonight when I'm back if no one else addresses them by then. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:40, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) Hi Drmies, we have been putting up with this for two years now:
    • in November 2012 Banner first edited the article, leaping into an edit war (see the history here, around November 2012 to include sources like http://www.factorfizzle.com to support content on the safety and nutrient value of organic vs conventional food.
    • Banner's first comment on the article Talk page was also back in November 2012, and he asked, "why MEDRS"
    • his first response to the first answer went right to "Blatant nonsense" [11]
    • Actually I was wrong about no DR. Zad68 opened a mediation that failed back in December 2012 over all the ruckus and edit warring Banner caused then.
    • there were efforts to frame an RfC (here and here that failed - and if you read those, you can see why.
    • I got involved in late December and suggested a compromise - namely to handle "chemical" differences (of which some can actually be identified) separately from "health differences" from eating organic (none have been identified) (see here). That compromise has endured since then.
    • but Banner has been railing against the use of MEDRS for health claims about organic food for two years now. Please walk in our shoes. And you are ignoring his dare when asked to strike yet another charge of whitewashing: "Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up". So what will the community do? How do we live with this guy who cannot hear that we need to use MEDRS for health claims? (a two year case of IDHT) Those are not rhetorical questions - I am really asking for your advice. thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:11, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Interesting approach. Why don't you tell that I initiated a possible RfC twice but that "you guys" (to give a short summery of the different people involved) could not accept my proposal? And why is there constant trouble at Organic food about stuff being removed? Quite often it were others adding stuff and seeing it removed on grounds of "failing MEDRS" or the polular "WP:OR". Is it not possible that something is wrong with the tight application of MEDRS when so many people have trouble with it? Only this year (just 19 days old) it happened to three other users to see their edits reverted by mr. Jytdog. We are talking about food, but sources from agricultural colleges and universities are often rejected as unreliable of failing MEDRS. And scientific research was, according to you, unreliable due to the "messiness of reality" but still you accept some scientific research, especially when it is vague or negative about organic food. You should apply the same rules for all scientific research, not cherrypicking the best ones for your goal. The Banner talk 13:29, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    MEDRS is policy. If you don't like it, the appropriate response is to work to change the policy, not to ignore it and and attack the characters of those who apply it. That's pretty much the way it works here and at any other organization for that matter. If you decide the rules don't apply to you because you don't agree with them, sanctions usually follow. Formerly 98 (talk) 13:37, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (MEDRS is a guideline, Formerly!) There is so much more to Banner's bad behavior. I guess I am going to have to catalog the whole ugly history. That will take some time. But here is another example - a totally WP:POINT-y nomination for deletion back in November 2012. Sheesh. And it hasn't gotten much better. I will bring a whole slew of diffs on Talk and the article later. Jytdog (talk) 14:00, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Are you really that desperate to get me topic banned that you have to go back more then two years to find excuses? Sheesh. The Banner talk 01:40, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It's called "establishing a pattern". If it goes back two years, then the time period is not the deal-killer you're making it out to be; quite the opposite, in fact. --Calton | Talk 05:26, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You can also look at it from the other side: they claim that the article is neutral and the use of MEDRS is valid. But there is a pattern of other people who also claim that the article is not neutral and that the application of MEDRS is at least heavy handed. The Banner talk 16:29, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Questions?. I'm a little surprised there hasn't been any action yet after this long considering we've had pretty clear personal attacks/civility issues and edit warring The Banner resorts to, especially when consensus is against them due to reliable sources, due weight, etc. Considering that, are there any questions about something that isn't clear about the specific behavior issues for other folks reading here? What exactly are people looking for to make a decisions one way or another?
    The Banner just can't accept that their behavior in attempting to deal with content they disagree with is problematic and tries to claim they are being attacked instead in some fashion instead of trying to avoid the behavior problems. [12] Past history (apparently 48 ANIs) shows this behavior is a persistent problem, so I'd like to see if we can get some kind of resolution so those of us at the article don't need to keep putting up with continued personal attacks and aspersions whenever we do something The Banner doesn't agree with. It seems we have more than enough for the proposed warning by Formerly 98 at a minimum, and a topic ban seems like a no-brainer for anyone who's had to deal with the behavior first hand at least, but what kind of information are uninvolved editors looking for? Hopefully answering that can bring this to a close if something is unclear. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:43, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - A topic ban is drastic and excessive for this incident on organic foods. The inserted statement at that article, while true, is vague in meaning, so it says little. I've also seen problems around MEDRS, as I have a history with it, and have seen other editors have a history with it. There were times where I believed there was false consensus, and eventually seen those articles grow more neutral. I've seen editors come and go, and had this belief there was NPOV, when they inserted something reliable, but it was removed because it wasn't a review, or they didn't have access to the review. The whitewashing remark looked like the perceived actions, and not necessarily a personal attack. I propose resolution to seek out a good source to include what organic has over natural foods. - Sidelight12 Talk 04:55, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    As has been mentioned before, this has been an ongoing issue, not an isolated incident just to make sure that is clear. From your response, it seems like you might have taken just a glance at a few things (completely understandable given the length of this). The reason The Banner is being discussed is because of their behavior, not a content dispute. Voicing a concern of whitewashing is one thing on a talk page (variable in appropriateness), but edit warring citing white washing by users rather than specific reliable source or weight concerns is a problem because it contributes to the history attacking editors. The snipes are very directed at editors and not content if you follow the diffs and the talk page discussions linked above, and below by Jytdog. What do you think is the best way to prevent the behavior issue regardless of dispute with that in mind? Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:45, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose I'm just an outside observer here but I've been on the receiving end in the past of what felt like a tag-team effort by Jytdog, Formerly98 and KingofAces43. Spending a few days studying their edit histories is very informative. They, plus some other editors like Yobol(and a few others), seem to work as a team. That's my impression. And their edits tend to be beneficial to the big end of town, never the other way around. It could be coincidental, but thought it worth mentioning. Under these circumstances, Banner should receive the benefit of the doubt. MLPainless (talk) 13:13, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Just a quick note for anyone trying to determine consensus, but it would seem like MLPainless has a separate ax to grind here as they aren't commenting on The Banner's behavior in their opposition. They've run into frustration in tackling WP:FRINGE topics at Talk:Vani Hari and Talk:Sunset Yellow FCF somewhat recently, which is what their above comments are based on. The editors that have interacted with MLPainless are largely from over at WP:MED (e.g. [13]) when problems at those articles were discussed there, and those editors came to check things out.
    As a science editor, I for one get very tired of people passionate about a topic casting aspersions like above (shills, white-washing, etc. from some other editors) whenever they don't agree. It's a distraction at best, which is why we're hoping for some kind of action in the case of The Banner to get them to stop the behavior. If they actually want to discuss content instead of lashing out, then that's what we're looking for. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:03, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's an example of what I mean: within 3 hours of my comment above, user "Formerly 98" went through my edit history and deleted/modified edits I made at Atrazine, edits that tended to raise some flags of concern about a hugely profitable pesticide. If you look at that article's history, you'll see him and Jytdog (and Kingfaces43) removing all possible comments that cast a negative light on Atrazine. Their editing is almost entirely exonerating of the chemical, despite numerous primary studies showing problems. Those studies, even when there are several, by different researchers, all pointing to a similar conclusion, are tagteam deleted on the grounds of "not a secondary or review study". And even when I included a review study, it was deleted on the grounds that the review study was "polemic".
    Now I don't care that Wikipedia is being expunged of any trace of doubt about profitable chemicals, and that all evidence for organic food is being deleted under the guise of MEDRS, but I'm not going to resile from commenting that it is happening, and that it's a shame. I've also looked at Banner's history and I really cannot see what the fuss is about. He can be a bit gruff, but not to the point of topic banning. This seems like yet another content dispute in which the corporate view is being rammed through. MLPainless (talk) 23:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Sure The Banner has an obnoxious personal style, but that is not a crime on Wikipedia. I am more concerned about the allegations of corporate tage-team spamming. It takes two teams to edit war. IMHO it is the proposer who needs a good spanking for wasting our time here. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 22:36, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Banner's history on the article and Talk

    This is quite a wall of text. but it seems that folks aren't getting the history here. So here it is.

    • article Banner came in hard and edit-warring, pretty much vanished, and has come back since the fall getting more and more nasty.
    • talk page

    Am just giving sections for the hell that broke loose when Banner 1st entered the article, with much vitriol on his part.

    There you go. You can see the whole thing there. Like I said - came in ugly. got frustrated, and now comes back mostly in WP:POINT-y ways, making personal attacks and disrupting discussion. Please topic ban him. I will settle for a strong warning to 1) stop discussing contributors and discuss content, with a topic ban the next time he does so; and 2) to use WP:DR tools to deal with his concerns instead of venting on the rest of us and edit warring. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 02:40, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    It is a nice list of my edits. I guess each and everyone was reverted...
    And it is interesting to see that Jytdog gets irritated when I used his own words "due to the messiness of reality" to question the content of the article. I am willing to believe the "due to the messiness of reality"-statement but than it has to be applied on all content, not just the inconvenient content. The Banner talk 00:43, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I note an interesting gap between end of August 2014 and beginning of November (after almost daily attention in August) in his attention to the article that corresponds to my issues with him. Starting September 1, he nominated a slew of articles for deletion, documented by @Tomwsulcer: here that I suggested were, as a package, in bad faith. I explained my concern on his talk page. Tomwsulcer also commented and was deleted. @Milowent: also tried to talk sense to him to deaf ears here. I laid it on thick here and his response was to delete it within 5 minutes. He went through the four stages of warning me in 6 minutes here to here, which is certainly not the way the system is intended but got to the point that by the technicality he could use the stop or get blocked threat (which he used repeatedly, see above). So I had an active, conscious vandal, deliberately trying to force his POV through AfD nominations. I challenged all his bad faith AfD nominations the proper way, by adding sources he deliberately failed to find from the first pages of Google when attacking these articles. I won every case, which clearly shows he is the one out of line. Originally I tried to show how each individual bad faith nomination was not a singular event but part of a package. Apparently according to user:Drmies, disclosing these facts, suggesting the offender should be stopped, are personal attacks. So I had to back off. I gave a few key notations in this summation for brevity, there's plenty more.
    The general point is, he didn't calm down and stop being obnoxious, he only diverted his efforts toward me for a couple of months. When I backed off, he turned his attention back to the article in question. There is an obvious pattern of behavior here. He's a moving target causing trouble to multiple users wherever he goes and as I have said above, is in need of serious disciplinary action (or psychological help) beyond this one complaint. Somebody please go through his history (contact me and I'll be glad to guide you to the dirt I have, both my interactions and his conflicts with more than 30 other users) and make a reasonable determination if we want this person constantly making hostile edits and interactions as a representative, as a member of our team. Do we want him to take ownership of any article he chooses to get involved with? Do we want more 3RR violations, more civility disputes, more wikilawyering to force POV and points into articles of his choosing? It is obvious even from his comments here, he will use any tactic and tool possible to bully his "opponents" to get his way. If you just topic ban him on this one topic, it will not solve the problem, he will just take his show elsewhere. After he has assaulted another editor with his barrage of tactics, they might get to the point that they find their way back to ANI with him and we do this dance again. Trackinfo (talk) 11:32, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't be bothered to find the AfDs I was referring to in my warning--what was problematic was the personal attacks you made in those AfDs. "Personal attack" is a matter of tone, and I think you have a problem finding the right tone every now and then. Drmies (talk) 02:52, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    In fact I was trying to ignore your silly quest to get me blocked. I tried to ignore your personal attacks and harassment. But yu won't give up. And accusing me of a bias against articles related to pageants is not true. There is clearly a problem but you seem to ignore it. And the problem there is, amongst others, this: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mrdhimas/Archive. And yes, I have send your attack page to MfD (Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Trackinfo/sandbox/Banner). How long do you want to go on and on and on? The Banner talk 05:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I forgot to note above that I made a good faith effort to discuss this issue headon with Banner and with the new editor I mentioned above, Redddbaron (a farmer who is new to WP and its sourcing guidelines). That discussion is here: here] It sadly devolved into personal attacks. Jytdog (talk) 14:32, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It would have been better when you offered this link: Talk:Organic food/Archive 5#concerns about bias...., an interesting story of not listening to the real content problem. You are willing to listen to everything, except anything that questions the application of MEDRS and flawed neutrality of the article due to the strict application of MEDRS. You talk about everything here, except the content problems. The Banner talk 05:32, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, the focus of this ANI is your behavior. There are many ways to resolve content disputes which you have not attempted to use for over two years now - you have reduced yourself to making disruptive, heckling, SOAPBOX comments like this and disruptive reverts in the article like this. Your contributions have not been constructive for a long time now. Jytdog (talk) 12:28, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You are bluntly ignoring the fact that the talk page of Organic food is now filled with accusations of the article being POV. The behaviour that you dislike so much, is nothing more than me keeping pointing at how POV the article is. Instead of doing something about the POV, an opinion shared by many others, you just try to silence somebody you never managed to silence before. The fact that you even try to close the talk page of organic food for discussion is quite serious: see here. The Banner talk 16:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    requesting close

    This has gone on long enough and we have crept to the top of this page. Can an admin please review and close? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 21:01, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I just requested a close at the "request close" board here. Jytdog (talk) 15:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Improper closure

    I am stating my objection to the above closure as improper. The closing administrator has been involved in this issue for months. This is also the same administrator who decided to delete content I collected that would be relevant to read about this case. Per the procedure I have been able to find; I have given notification to the administrator to deaf ears and am now seeking to find whatever the proper procedure is for having this reviewed. Trackinfo (talk) 23:11, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Many of the diffs which where described as personal attacks, to me, seemed too mild to be called personal attacks. However, I can see the frustration by the Banner, and his description of acts. Is it to topic ban people because of little tolerance for a different pov? There are a lot of people with similar pov's but they come in one at a time, to an established wiki community who are more eager at wikipedia. If that diff is about an involved editor, it seems like drmies was a mediator, instead of taking a personal involvement. If someone else wants to close or review, then they should, the more eyes, the better. - Sidelight12 Talk 03:03, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You should also keep in mind that Trackinfo is already engaged in a long personal campaign to get me blocked or banned as he highlights so friendly in his own comments above. The Banner talk 07:25, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have no problem with Trackinfo's request; I have the feeling it will simmer like the last one. It seems pretty obvious to me that there was only one way for this thread to end. Jytdog, what do you think? You can guess nothing good was going to come out of it. I have faith in your judgment, though you are of course involved as well. :) Look, you all have a longstanding conflict and you should find a better way to solve it than try for a topic ban--and I wish you all good luck with it. Drmies (talk) 14:15, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Sidelight12 for the Nth time, the ANI action was not about Banner's POV to which he is entirely entitled; it was not about content - it was about his 2 year pattern of personal attacks and disruptive editing, and his failure to use WP's DR processes with regard to his unhappiness with the application of PAG in the article. Jytdog (talk) 14:48, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for asking Drmies. I am OK with the warning you gave to Banner. If he refuses to heed it, that will be helpful if we have to come back here (and I very much hope we don't have to) The only thing I ask (as I already did on your Talk page) is that you strike the "enjoy ganging up on" piece of your close which attributes bad motivation to me. I like working out differences with editors who AGF and work within PAG; I do not enjoy this kind of conflict in WP - trying to work with editors who refuse to assume good faith and instead make personal attacks, and who do not base their discussion on PAG, are the things that drive me away from articles. To be frank I am approaching burnout from that stuff. In any case I would appreciate it if you would strike that. If on the other hand you really think I have a pattern of WP:GANG or other bad behavior and you really see that justified in the discussion above, I would appreciate you telling me that directly and cleanly, but tossing that into your close seems... well, flippant. Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 14:48, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Jytdog, I don't mind doing that all, though I will tell you that I certainly didn't mean you in the "some of you". Thanks, Drmies (talk) 16:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you! Jytdog (talk) 16:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Request template namespace topic ban for Sardanaphalus

    I have been increasingly concerned about Sardanaphalus (talk · contribs)'s template editing lately. His template editing was recently mentioned in an ANI thread, after which I removed his template editor right. However, I've found that the problems aren't limited to protected templates. While most of his template edits are fine, a significant minority have problems, and given Sardanaphalus's fast rate of editing and tendency to not get consensus on template talk pages, this has resulted in quite a large build-up of templates that need to be fixed. I have noticed the following patterns in Sardanaphalus's template editing:

    • Logic errors and bad parameter names that could have been spotted with better testing. For example, a wrong parameter name at infobox company[14][15][16] and a missing includeonly tag in infobox shopping mall.[17]
    • Creation of template redirects and large-scale editing of articles to use the redirect name, bypassing the requested move process. (This is the matter that was discussed in the previous ANI thread.)
    • Formatting errors, making text or tables bunched up or unreadable.[18][19][20]
    • Creation of unnecessary template forks, for example Template:Semisub (TfD) and Template:End&startflatlist (TfD).
    • Adding unnecessary subtemplates and parameters to templates. This makes processing templates slower, which in turn increases the time taken to save pages. For example, see this edit to Template:Collapsible option, the corresponding edits to Template:Mono, and several additions of the {{{1}}} parameter to navboxes to use the parameters added to Collapsible option.[21][22][23][24][25] Sometimes increases in complexity are fine, but I'm concerned that this is being done on a large scale without any discussion.
    • Changing the function of parameters based on other parameters in the template, e.g. [26] and the edits to Template:Mono linked above. Once such a parameter scheme is added, it is hard to fix, as you need to go through every transclusion of a template and check that it doesn't use the new scheme, or add a special tracking category to find the transclusions that need changing. Again, schemes like this can be useful sometimes, but Sardanaphalus tends to add them without discussion in places where they aren't needed.

    All of this wouldn't be such a problem if Sardanaphalus took on board advice he was given after problems with his template editing were brought up. However, he tends to revert rather than using the talk page,[27][28][29] and sometimes resorts to edit warring to keep his changes in templates.[30] Most importantly, advice on his talk page doesn't seem to have resulted in any change of behaviour. For example, after this thread that I started on his talk page last week, he is still making edits with the exact same problems.[31] I don't see much improvement after other recent threads either,[32][33] and I see quite a few complaints going back in his talk page history.[34][35][36][37]

    I'd like to propose a topic ban from the template namespace for Sardanaphalus, to prevent further bad template edits and to allow us to start cleaning up the old edits without having to worry about cleaning up new edits at the same time. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 06:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Indictee's observations / questions (A)
    1. I understand that its removal without warning is a prerogative, but, given that our interactions before January were<aside>if I recall correctly</aside>of a friendly, fruitful and collaborative nature, why did you choose not to contact me before revoking the template-editor status  during  the ANI thread you mention<aside>a thread that was about  another  editor's actions</aside>? And then, despite my attempts [ ] [ ] to reach out to you about the situation, why did you choose not to contact me (privately, if you'd felt it more appropriate) before launching this proposal<aside>especially after this allusion</aside>?
    2. "While most of his template edits are fine..."
       This seems to be the single, passing acknowledgement as regards my template contributions overall. Do you realise how one-sided your characterisations and proposal might otherwise appear?
    3. "...given Sardanaphalus's [] tendency to not get consensus on template talk pages..."
       Before, during or after some editing..? And attempts to work toward consensus elsewhere<aside>i.e. less publicly; when, for example, I'm trying to handle incivility</aside> don't or can't count..?
    4. "Logic errors..."
       Given the examples you provide, do you not also make the occasional mistake<aside>yes,  occasional</aside>?
    5. "...bad parameter names..."
       Such as<aside>in the context of templates such as {{Navbox}}, {{Sidebar}} and {{Infobox}}</aside> some of those provided for e.g. {{hlist}}, {{flatlist}}, etc..?
    6. "Creation of template redirects and large-scale editing of articles to use the redirect name, bypassing the requested move process. (This is the matter that was discussed in the previous ANI thread.)"
      1. Why is your interpretation that of a desire to bypass process? Does it strike you as good faith to choose such an interpretation?
      2. Given tools such as Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser, what do you take as "large-scale editing"?
      3. The matter discussed in the previous ANI thread was  another editor's  actions.
    7. "Formatting errors, making text or tables bunched up or unreadable":
      1. [38]  I agree that this was a mistake – which is why I (tried to) correct it ([39]), but was given this.
      2. [40]  I see no bunched up / unreadable material here (and at 1024 by 768).
      3. [41]  Ditto (ii) (if the deleted template still existed).
    8. "Creation of unnecessary template forks, for example":
      1. Template:Semisub (TfD)  How does the rationale presented at the TfD render this template  unnecessary ..? It may've been in need of refinement, but why any more unnecessary than other templates that adjust positioning, etc..?
      2. Template:End&startflatlist (TfD)  This template was a one-template replacement for occasions where two consecutive templates were in use, but, as this can be avoided without compromising presentation, I had/have no objection to its deletion. Anyone with access to its history should find it saw very little use.
      Are most of the templates I've initiated "unnecessary"..?
    9. "Adding unnecessary subtemplates and parameters to templates. This makes processing templates slower, which in turn increases the time taken to save pages. For example, see...":
      1. "...this edit to Template:Collapsible option..."
        As indicated in the edit summary for this edit<aside>"Update from sandbox (parentheses per talkpage request)"</aside> this was to fulfil a request to restore a version of the template found to be more useful.
      2. "...the corresponding edits to Template:Mono..."
        I don't understand what is meant by "corresponding edits" here. What is so "bad" about them..?
      3. "...and several additions of the {{{1}}} parameter to navboxes to use the parameters added to Collapsible option..."
        Similarly, what is so "bad" about enabling this convenience/shortcut for the lone parameter that<aside>so far as I've seen</aside> plain/regular/standard {{Navbox}}es usually have had made configurable at transclusion..? The idea and practice isn't due to me and isn't limited to this template. If this particular instance of the practice, though, makes template processing so much slower, I've yet to come by or to've been given some insight how/why – i.e. something more than statement or assertion.
      4. "...I'm concerned that this is being done on a large scale without any discussion."
        ["large scale" again; and discussion even though a seemingly well-established, accepted practice...?]
    10. [unfinished]
    • Support topic ban. I had noticed that Sardanaphalus has the wrong approach to editing templates before this report. A minor example is seen in the history at Template:Hegelianism where Sardanaphalus is editing the live template as if it were a contentious article which requires edit warring and pointy edit summaries to overcome POV pushers. Bold editing is one thing, but templates really do require care and collaboration. Johnuniq (talk) 08:43, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Indictee's observations / questions (B)
    1. Hello. I don't believe we've interacted before. I suppose it's a pity that here has become the first time. Given your first statement, did you decide not to say hello and indicate your concern because you thought my approach was "wrong" but not that "wrong" / "bad" / etc; and/or because you felt I wouldn't respond well; and/or...?
    2. Do you believe the example you give (Template:Hegelianism) represents my usual nature, activity and interactivity?
    • Support - Sardanaphalus can seem quite productive, but he has trouble collaborating. He has very strong ideas about how things should be done and as such, he doesn't take ctiticism very well. That makes it very hard to fix his mistakes. When he does acknowledge an (obvious) error, he will often revert to his own established methods. His layout always based to fit on his own screen (1680 wide), and in such a way that it becomes illegible on smaller screens. He uses and creates templates like {{!-!}} and {{!-!!}} that are completely redundant to wikimarkup and make table/template editing exponentially harder, yet at the same time acuses experienced template editors of "thinking like progrmammers". I would be a good thing if Sardanaphalus would experience Wikipedia more as a reader... on small screens. Or at the least, he could do with some coaching. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 09:21, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Indictee's observations / questions (C)
    1. "Sardanaphalus can seem quite productive..."
       I can imagine Edokter as quite productive.
    2. "...but he has trouble collaborating."
       Mistaken – as, for instance, I believe Mr. Stradivarius would testify (and, for instance, Tryptofish has testified below). I've become all too aware of circumstances in which Edokter has trouble collaborating.
    3. "He has very strong ideas about how things should be done and as such, he doesn't take ctiticism very well. That makes it very hard to fix his mistakes."
       If so, I've been experiencing someone with considerably stronger ideas about how things "should" be done and, as such, doesn't... and, at this point, I suspect it's best to move on:
    4. "When he does acknowledge an (obvious) error, he will often revert to his own established methods."
       I can't tell what this means, or is meant to mean. Does it suggest, for instance, that what Edokter sees as an (obvious) error is something he thinks I<aside>or any/everyone</aside> sees, would see or should see as an (obvious) error..?
    5. "His layout always based to fit on his own screen (1680 wide), and in such a way that it becomes illegible on smaller screens."
       Mistaken again – as far, at least, as a reduction to 1024 by 768. That doesn't mean, though, that

    [ Note "always". Regular appearances also seem to be made by "only" (as in "exclusively") and "completely" ]

    [unfinished]
    • Comment. Please take a look at User talk:Tryptofish/Archive 24#Template:Aquarium. Not too long ago, I reverted an edit by Sardanaphalus at that template, and they reached out to me at my user talk, and our subsequent discussion was very collaborative and improved the template. As a single anecdote, it seems to me to be contrary to what I'm reading here. I do however recognize that Sardanaphalus does an awful lot of template editing and that this is something where consensus is very important. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • He used to inquire about my reverts, and I would answer best I could, even though he should have brought up any issue on their respective template talk pages instead. However, any advice I give him is simply ignored or very soon forgoten. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 17:00, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Sardanaphalus has a habit of reformatting template code in such a manner that makes comparison by diff very difficult. Consider this edit from earlier today: the effective change is the addition of two {{{colheaderstyle|}}} but whilst the first of those is obvious, the second is disguised by the newline wrapped in <!-- --> markers which makes it look like some code has been removed and some very different code has been added. It has reached the point where I have refused to process their protected edit requests because it is so difficult to determine if their desired "minor" change truly is minor. More at Template talk:Shortcut#Protected edit request on 4 December 2014, Template talk:Information#Navbox version and Template talk:Div col#Code layout. They also nag me for not processing edits that I disagree with, see User talk:Redrose64#Template:Information, User talk:MSGJ#Advice, please..? and (by proxy) User talk:Edokter#Template talk:Div col. Sometimes it seems that a strange effect somewhere is the result of a Sardanaphalus edit - but it takes some time to trace it, see Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 132#Linebreaks in infoboxes. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:57, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • You may also note from today's editing [42][43] that his use of the sandbox is not very effective; he seemingly moves every edit to the live template immediately, negating the purpose of the sandbox. If the transclusion count is high, this will unnecessarily strain the job queue, and in cases where he does not use the sandbox at all, may introduce disruptive errors on live articles. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 17:00, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Sardanaphalus has asked some questions at both my user talk page and Mr. Stradivarius' talk page, and I would prefer that no final decision be made here until Sardanaphalus has responded here at ANI. At the moment, I'm neutral about the ban proposal, pending what I might hear subsequently. One possibility that I think we might want to put on the table is a topic ban from editing templates, but not from editing template talk pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:55, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      I agree that editing the template talk namespace should be allowed. Thinking about it, I would extend that to allowing the editing of template sandboxes as well, as without editing template sandboxes it is hard to make effective template edit requests. I'm also wondering whether editing /doc pages in the template namespace should be allowed, but I note that there has been some controversy about Sardanaphalus's editing there; see this section on his talk page, for example. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 23:39, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      I looked at that discussion you linked to, and before I say what I think, I had better stipulate that I'm mostly ignorant about the technicalities being discussed there. However, just as a matter of two editors communicating with one another, I'm not seeing anything that bad about the way that Sardanaphalus replied to Edokter. After reading Edokter's reply to my first post just above, I wondered why the two of us had had such differing experiences, and it now seems to me that it takes two to tango. Anyway, I'm receptive to a more limited ban that prevents editing templates and template documentation, but permits template talk page edits and edits of draft templates in sandbox space – but above all, I'm eager to hear back from Sardanaphalus. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      I should clarify that I never intended my proposed topic ban to include the template talk namespace - while it's related to the template namespace, technically it is not a part of it. Regarding Edokter, I agree that he could have handled that interaction better. I have noticed Edokter becoming increasingly frustrated with Sardanaphalus over the last few months, and this frustration is clearly evident in his recent interactions with him. It is not surprising to me that Sardanaphalus has reacted negatively to Edokter's complaints. However, Edokter is very knowledgeable about MediaWiki technical matters (much more than I am), and the technical points that he has brought up in discussions with Sardanaphalus are sound. I would say that his frustration is a symptom, rather than the cause. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 00:47, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      I've been thinking about the proposed topic ban scope, and I've come to the conclusion that we should allow Sardanaphalus to edit /doc pages for templates that have been updated due to edit requests that he makes, but not in other circumstances. The reason is pretty simple - after a template has been changed, it is often necessary to update the documentation with details of new parameters or new functionality, and it seems overly bureaucratic to require Sardanaphalus to do this on another page and then have another editor copy the documentation over. However, I don't think that this should be extended to allowing editing of all /doc pages unconditionally, as Sardanaphalus has been known to go systematically through /doc pages and change the formatting, and some of those edits have been contentious, as discussed above. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 00:42, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • (Non-administrator comment)Template:Cue I've had concerns about this user's ability to edit templates for some time as well but would only support a topic ban if the following is considered: I've seen some of their edits to templates, and they certainly have the logical ability to figure out how to properly do it and only lack the patience of making sure that it is right in the sandbox and making sure the changes are what the community wants in cases where a change might be objected to. As many may know, I've had issues and struggled with some of these things myself in the past and some would argue on my behalf that I have grown from them. Telling this user they can't talk about templates at all may very well drive a capable editor away, and that's harmful to the encyclopedia. I'd suggest that the closer of this discussion consider allowing Sardanaphalus the option of obtaining a mentor that is knowledgeable in templates and code and willing to be a middleman / filter for Sardanaphalus' ideas and changes. I'm fairly certain that the community would not see me fit for the job, and I respect that opinion despite not entirely agreeing with it, but I ask they give him a chance to find a mentor that is suitable to the community if he wishes to not be entirely topic banned from templates. Thank you for hearing me. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 21:45, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. Now I say this with some regret. I am convinced Sardanaphalus is a good faith editor with intelligence and technical knowledge. But I am also convinced that he is sloppy in his work, has difficulty collaborating, and has technical blindspots, particularly with resolution. While I support this TBAN I would like the following provisos to be considered: to only be restricted from templates not created by him, to have no restrictions to template talk or sandboxes, and to be allowed to collaborate with Technical 13 to suggest changes which are then carried out by Technical 13. --Mrjulesd (talk) 11:47, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I largely agree with what Mrjulesd just said. It seems to me that it has been long enough for Sardanaphalus to post a substantive response, and I take the fact that it has not happened yet as reason for me to not wait any longer and Support a limited ban. Because templates appear on multiple pages, edits to templates require a reasonable amount of care and consensus. An editor who has this much difficulty responding here needs some boundaries with respect to editing templates, but it does not have to be a "punishment". I, too, trust Technical 13 to serve informally as a mentor; for that matter, I would also trust Mr. Strad. I would like the ban to apply only to edits of templates (created by anyone) and to template documentation. No edits there. But edits would be unrestricted at template talk pages and draft/sandbox templates, and any editor in good standing (not just the mentor) could agree to implement changes to templates and documentation. And I sincerely wish Sardanaphalus happy editing going forward. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      Since my comment above, Sardanaphalus has posted at some length at my user talk, and also posted the two sets of questions to editors above. I've read all of that, carefully and with an open mind, and my opinion is not changed, because what I'm seeing is a combination of having difficulty accepting constructive criticism and having difficulty communicating effectively with other editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:25, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Working toward an alternative outcome

    Hello. I have been trying to work out a promising way to contribute to this thread, so I apologise if this initial post appears belated. Mr. Stradivarius endorsed the idea that linking/copying the conversation I started on his talkpage should be a good first step, so, with the exception of its Template:Tnfs, I've quoted it below. Thoughts, please..? Sardanaphalus (talk) 21:58, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    == Request ==

    Regarding your proposal: Though I've found a certain amount of information about this situation, I've yet to divine or find advice as regards what's considered an effective way for the... indictee? to proceed. I'd appreciate, therefore, your advice/assistance.

    Sincerely,
    Sardanaphalus (talk) 19:21, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

    As Tryptofish advised you, you should post a comment at the ANI thread. If you don't comment there, it will probably lower other editors' opinions of how well you collaborate with others. For things to go as well as possible, you need to a) show that you understand what the complaints about you are, b) accept responsibility for the issues brought up that are your fault (apologising helps here), and c) show that you are committed to improving your actions in the areas that you accept responsibility for (an action plan will help here). Though I started the thread about you, I don't actually want to see you topic banned if it can be avoided. I started the thread because I thought that a topic ban might be the only way to get you to change your behaviour after you seemingly ignored advice from myself and others. Perhaps this is all just a communication problem and can be sorted out through discussion - if that's the case, then so much the better. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 13:16, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Thank you very much for this message. In short: yes, I feel there's been an accumulation of misunderstandings, misinterpretations and unfinished conversations, some of which<aside>perhaps many of which</aside> have been prompted, I think, because of my attempts to take advice on board. I'm heartened to read that you don't want to see me topic (namespace?)-banned if it can be avoided; this is what the question at the end of a follow-up to the above that I'd been drafting had addressed ("...is there any kind of outcome other than the one proposed that you'd prefer to see / like to see..?").
    Do you think, therefore, that linking and/or copying the contents of this thread to the ANI thread<aside>to see if/how anyone following it responds</aside> is a good initial post for me to make there..?
    With my thanks again, Sardanaphalus (talk) 09:16, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
    PS Despite, for instance, LT910001's own userpage, this may also be timely.
    Yes, I think that linking to this conversation as part of your initial post would be a good idea. You should also try and address my points a, b and c above. But you shouldn't make the post too long - the thread will go smoothest if it is a conversation rather than a series of walls of text. Also, you should comment there soon, preferably today - the longer you leave it, the more it looks to other editors like you are ignoring the thread. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 10:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
    • I'm required elsewhere for a while now, so will make the post sometime later today. Thanks for your confirmation. Sardanaphalus (talk) 11:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
    There's really nothing for the rest of us to add here. What is needed is for you to say whatever you are going to say. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm still not confident about what's best for that to be. Given Mr. Stradivarius's points (a) to (c) above, I'm thinking I should work through what's been said in the main part of this thread in order to demonstrate, I suppose, that I don't "understand what the complaints about [me] are"<aside>more accurately, to demonstrate that I feel their basis isn't as clear-cut or perhaps as well-founded as it may otherwise seem</aside> but I think that's likely to generate one of these "walls of text"...? Sardanaphalus (talk) 14:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The general sense I get from this comment is that, in essense, you do not agree with the complaints. In other words, you feel you are doing nothing wrong. That is unfortunate, because that may indicates there is no intent to change on your part. What we are asking of you is to adhere to some basic principles that we expect from anyone editing Wikipedia. One of these principles is to take advice from others instead of fighting them and perceiving criticism on your edits as personal attacks. You have been given lots of advice on technical matters, but it appears to have fallen on deaf ears, as you generally do not show any change in editing. Also, if you feel you need a 'wall of text' to address these complaints, that is also not a good sign. So at this point I think a topic ban on Template:-space (meaning live templates only, not including template talk pages, /sandbox and /testcases pages), combined with some other technical restrictions, and coaching, is what is needed to improve the quality of your edits. Accepting a coach would be the only way to lift this ban in the future. Before deciding this, we'd like to hear your view (as concise as possible) on these complaints on your edits. I emphasized "edits" because I want to stress we are not discussing you as a person. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 16:40, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Does anyone endorse the train of thought in this message's first half..? Sardanaphalus (talk) 14:54, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    It all boils down to...

    ...this, I think: no more than a handful of editors<aside>and one in particular</aside> thinking, I guess, that I understood something, or that they'd explained something to me<aside>or "advised" me</aside> while, in fact, I didn't understand something, or they hadn't explained something, or mistook statements<aside>or assertions</aside> for explanation. And, as a consequence, despite "most of his template edits [being] fine", it looks like these few editors will have someone banned<aside>not blocked or whatever, but banned</aside> from a namespace – not a topic within a namespace, but a namespace. Does all this mean I've made mistakes and/or misjudgements? Definitely. Do I apologise for doing so? Absolutely. I hope that's not too concise or robust. Sardanaphalus (talk) 23:56, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't think the above statement helps at all. There is consensus in this thread to ban you from the namespace. The only thing which may possibly prevent this going ahead is to voluntary agree to a strict set of restrictions, such as the following:
    • You accept that there are significant concerns about your current template editing.
    • You adhere to WP:1RR in the template namespace, and seek consensus for all edits that are reverted before attempting to re-apply. You fully test all changes in a sandbox before deploying.
    • You discuss all changes that introduce new functionality or new parameters to a template, and seek consensus for them.
    • You avoid hard-coding any styles into templates.
    • You avoid making cosmetic changes to the code which do not affect the output of the template. Examples include changing template calls to redirects, or fiddling with the whitespace.
    Would you be willing to abide by these restrictions (and agree to be blocked if you do not)? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:56, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That is a good list, but it misses the essence of the problem. No one should edit live templates by trial-and-error, and templates are not like articles where users edit war with snarky edit summaries. Sardanaphalus should use a sandbox to perform experiments, and should only transfer the result to the main template after thorough testing with the sandbox. Take a look at the responses from Sardanaphalus above—there is no acknowledgment of a problem, and there is no indication of a willingness to learn. A topic ban is the only reasonable outcome because technical people working on templates are not willing to deal with disruption—it's just not what is expected on the technical side. Johnuniq (talk) 11:30, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Note that MSGJ said these rules could "possibly prevent" a ban, if Sardanaphalus would agree to them. I'm interested to see if he does. But if he does not, then a ban on editing live templates is the most likely outcome. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 13:10, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    While this doesn't mitigate the above, I would like to point out he has made a better statement at my talk page [44]. But I can't understand why he hasn't said something similar here, but I hope it is forthcoming. --Mrjulesd (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • [Reconstructed post]  Because, Mrjulesd, despite common sense and some research, I still believe some even-handedness might prevail. If anyone is still reading, no, that doesn't mean I think I'm "right"; it doesn't mean I think I haven't done anything "wrong"; it doesn't mean I don't think there're any problems ...... but it does mean that this narrow, selective mischaracterisation and misrepresentation of the (template) contributions I make needs to stop ...... It paints a distorted, one-sided picture of these contributions and misinterprets their intent. It also ignores the incivility ...... as a result of an inability to distinguish assertion from explanation or advice
    [...Apologies; I will have to abort as duty elsewhere calls]

    (Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:18, 30 January 2015 (UTC))[reply]

    Close?

    It doesn't look like there is much benefit in keeping this any longer, and consensus has been formed. I suggest we close this shortly with the following conclusion. Hopefully this will be a temporary ban and Sardanaphalus finds other avenues to be productive in the meantime — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:36, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Sardanaphalus (talk · contribs · logs) is indefinitely restricted from making any edits to the template namespace in the English Wikipedia with the following exceptions:

    • Template talk pages;
    • Templates sandboxes, test cases or other "non live" subtemplates used for testing;
    • Documentation pages, but only as a direct result of a change to a template's code requested by Sardanaphalus.
    • I have just been able to log in again. I will now try to reconstruct what I can recall of the post I was working on that was meant to precede the above. It includes notice taken of the railroading that seemed<aside>and now appears confirmed</aside> to've begun. Of course there is "consensus": it's much easier to make noises when being one-sided, negative and having an axe to grind. Sardanaphalus (talk) 17:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      PS This also denies my completing the response to Mr. Stradivarius' original post on which I've been working and, in turn, his considered response.
      • The factor that prompted this ban is not the occasional mistake; it is a combination of a failure to communicate and tendency to dismiss complaints by rationalizing your own actions. The main objective is to force you to communicate your ideas before implementing them... and to learn how to deal with failed ideas, because there lies the true problem. So I endorse a close. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 09:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support close and restrictions as proposed here. I've been advocating for giving him the opportunity to present his side of the argument, but I think that by now that opportunity has been more than adequate. At this point, it no longer matters whether the prolongation results from intentional delay, or from WP:COMPETENCE, but the community is entitled to wrap this up and move on. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:20, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Lachlan Foley indiscriminate mass article tagging and WP:DISRUPT

    User:Lachlan Foley is out of control.

    In just the last five days, LF has tagged about 400 album and song articles with music notability tags without any apparent research or examination of the articles themselves, many of which actually show they were hit songs or records, like with Blur's #5 UK charting Charmless Man and On Your Own (Blur song) song articles. [45][46]. He seems to have a particular dislike of live albums - 17 out of 22 Gary Numan's live albums articles has been tagged by him as well two Roxy Music albums.[47][48]

    Many of the other album articles he threw notability tags on are of those by iconic artists such as Radiohead and Brian Eno.[49][50]

    Looking just previous to this latest round of mass tagging, I see he tagged Roxy Music #5 charting Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song) article with a notability tag.[51]

    Just have a look at his contributions page and you'll see.

    Any kind of attempted reasoning with him will be met with edit warring as demonstrated by his block for 3RR about two weeks ago. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive267#User:Info4allthepeople reported by User:Lachlan Foley (Result: Submitter blocked).

    This editor needs to be kept in check.--Oakshade (talk) 06:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I've done nothing wrong, so I have no need to explain myself, but I will say that if you had also bothered to look a cursory glance at the constructive improvements I have made to hundreds of articles over the period of five years, you'd think twice about calling my tagging "indiscriminate". You are just still upset about that Joy Division incident and are grasping at straws in an attempt to get back at me. Lachlan Foley (talk) 09:54, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Mass tagging of hundreds of song and album articles, many of which were top 10 or top 20 hits demonstrates you were indiscriminate in your tagging. You can't erase history as the diffs are there forever. Glad you brought up the Joy Division album Preston 28 February 1980 article as that's yet another example in which you failed to do any research and threw a notability tag on. It seems you're angry about that tag being removed and being called on your WP:DISRUPT violating behavior. --Oakshade (talk) 17:21, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I recall this user sending dozens and dozens of similar articles to AfD and IIRC, they've all been kept. Recommend that LF raises notability on the WP:ALBUM talkpage first before tagging more articles. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 18:00, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Given this is a longtime ongoing pattern, I think a topic ban might be in order. --Oakshade (talk) 02:18, 19 January 2015 (UTC) AMENDMENT: Given the behavior demonstrated by Cavarrone below with multiple topics, it seems more than just a topic ban would be in order. --Oakshade (talk) 00:37, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Just drawing to your attention that User:Lachlan Foley has tagged almost all of the Jebediah releases with notability tags even though everyone of them are charting songs and contain independent verifiable references. Until checking his talk page I was unaware that this editor has a past history of this disruptive behaviour. Concur with previous comments that this appears to be an ongoing pattern that should be actively discouraged.Dan arndt (talk) 11:03, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Does this constitute vandalism? See Wikipedia:Vandalism#Abuse of tags, and there are literally hundreds of wrong tags, it's hard to believe good faith. --Mrjulesd (talk) 20:14, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Def. a case of WP:DE. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 08:13, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And for Jebediah I see on the #6 charting Kosciuszko (album) article, LF removed all the professional review sources [52] and then tagged it for notability on the next edit. [53] Wow. --Oakshade (talk) 08:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Really could use an Admin weighing in on this and for this to have a definitive end.--Oakshade (talk) 02:35, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Sadly, they're too busy with backslapping and waiting for their spines to develop to help with a real issue. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 18:35, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Something needs to be done. Just in the last day, even after all the agreement of his disruptive behavior here by all editors, he's tagged multiple charting song and album articles with notability tags - examples are [54][55][56] - the latter of which, Found That Soul, was a top 10 hit.--Oakshade (talk) 23:39, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Still continuing with the tagging spree. Admins, time to step up. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 14:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have not checked his recent rapidfire tagging, but the time rate of the tags (one tag or more/a minute) is well below of a minimum standard it is reasonable to expect by a responsible, non-bot, good-faith reviewer who analyzes sourcing and contents of the articles. In spite of warnings and previous incidents, I don't see any sign he intends to change his attitude, nor he apparently wants to engage in a discussion to explain his actions, so I strongly suggest a topic ban from tagging articles, especially as the tagbombing appears to be a dead end for LF (even considering previous incidents, I don't see any intention to nominate such articles from deletion). Even if LF could be sometimes incidentally right, this mass-tagging is unhelpful and requires a lot of time (and sometimes stress) from the community to review and fix his edits, and frankly everyone has better things to do than loosing time behind some improper tags (LF included). Cavarrone 16:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Admin needed here. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 10:49, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    He does not change his attitude very easily. When the Everything Must Go incident went down, he was just removing information that I added without any explanation. I tried to explain that there was nothing wrong with the information, and there wasn't, the information had reliable references, but he just kept reverting my edits, and eventually reported me for 3RR, that was the moment I tried not to edit the articles where he made changes, so I would not have to deal with the process of getting reported. Just wanted to share my opinion because I felt really cheerless when I was reported because of an article where I was adding valid information with references, and when I tried to figure out the reason for his removal of the infomration in question, he reported me. User:Info4allthepeople (talk) 14:15, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    When User:Rhanas attempted to explain to LF these unconstructive edits, his response was, "How dare you, you don't have a clue about what I'm doing. I am improving these articles and if you have a problem with that take your frustration somewhere else." [57] He just doesn't get it. --Oakshade (talk) 19:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I really tried to explain, some of his edits are really meaningless and not necessary at all, he changes everything from one moment to the other when there is no reason to, I really don't get his edits.Rhanas (talk) 16:43, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Admin action is needed

    Any chance of an admin actually doing something here? This has been here for more than a week. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 10:37, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    C'mon you chocolate fireguards. Pull your fingers out. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 13:26, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Topic ban proposal

    Moved this section down for visibility. Given the failure of the editor to respond sufficiently, or indeed to stop tagging articles that clearly pass our notability guidelines, I suggest a topic ban on User:Lachlan Foley from adding notability tags to music recording related articles, broadly construed. Please feel free to tweak this as required. Black Kite (talk) 13:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Topic Ban Discussion

    • I have warned him to disengage from this area until the discussion is concluded. Black Kite (talk) 15:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. He's even edit warring to reinstate clearly incorrect tags, and is being very disruptive. It seems like some kind of obsession that can't be reasoned with. And if he's continuing the disruption while this discussion is in progress, block until there's an outcome here. Squinge (talk) 15:16, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per my reasoning in the main section above. --Cavarrone 17:19, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per Black Kite and Lugnuts. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support, simple enough. This should be enforced with long blocks. Shii (tock) 17:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support and block, but ensure notability tag ban applies to all topics. As Cavarrone indicated above, he has not limited himself to this tag abuse to just music related articles. --Oakshade (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. Quite clearly needed. BMK (talk) 22:34, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. Agree, it is my opinion he does not change his attitude and just keeps adding tags wildly on every article. User:Info4allthepeople (talk) 23:09, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support, clearly, the editor is either not acting in good faith, or is not taking due care when tagging articles for notability. Either way, they shouldn't be editing these articles until they demonstrate an understanding of when notability tags are appropriate. Lankiveil (speak to me) 00:09, 26 January 2015 (UTC).[reply]
    • Support appropriate restrictions on this editor including the proposed topic-ban. Even accepting his subjective good faith, his pattern of participation is damaging. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. Judging by this, I'm not sure if s/he doesn't quite understand what notability means or if s/he just doesn't care (I'm leaning toward the latter though). Erpert blah, blah, blah... 05:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support banning Lachlan Foley from adding notability tags to articles. User demonstrated on my talk page that their believes about notability criterion are in direct conflict with WP:GNG. -- Sam Sing! 10:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong Oppose Given his history of constructive edits this is clearly not a SPA whose purpose is disruption. Tagging articles is a means of promoting discussion and dialog; an editor doesn't need to obtain a certain threshold of agreement to his proposals or face silencing. It would be different if the editor were blanking pages, etc., but someone should not be topic banned simply for expressing (extreme) minority viewpoints. BlueSalix (talk) 10:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose See Leviathan (song), for instance -- there is no particular assertion of notability on that page, so tagging for notability and refimprove was not a bad thing.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      WP:NSONGS clearly states that charting by itself is not sufficient to establish notability. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If I went on a blind tagging spree, hitting 1000s of articles, I bet I can get one right eventually. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 13:28, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    What Lugnuts said. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Just by randomness, something will hit.--Oakshade (talk) 15:09, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose for much the same reason as Sarek. See Talk:4st 7lb, for example, where he's precisely right: WP:NSONGS states that album reviews don't contribute to an album track's notability. When I dig back through his tags they seem pretty much correct based on the properly-sourced contents of the tagged articles. This comes down to an age-old issue, where people that have made defective articles dislike it when people tag the defects as opposed to correcting them. That the tags can generally be easily addressed doesn't make them wrong, and, if we topic-ban Lachlan Foley, we make it that much more likely that no one will ever fix the underlying articles.—Kww(talk) 13:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    We can ignore Kww comments following a string of bad-faith edits over the weekend. Clearly needs to read WP:CIR before he continues. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 14:02, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The attacks are getting pretty old, Lugnuts.—Kww(talk) 14:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    For attacks, read facts. Are you now going to do your token block threat now that you've been found out? Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 15:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not going to disagree with 4st 7lb (though there are lot of independent sources available - it might sneak in), but the problem is that LF has been tagging charting singles by major bands. What are the chances of there being no sources available for those? Nil. Tag them for more sources by all means, but tagging for notability is ridiculous. Black Kite (talk) 18:59, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - NSONG isn't exactly definitive (probably are, may be, etc), but the articles (as tagged) appear to at least be in question. Yes, there may be other sources that establish notability - but they aren't in the articles and there is enough to question based on what is in the articles. Blocking or topic-banning for placing tags is not a good precedent at all. The editor is engaging at the article talk pages and at their own talk page (to some degree). Worse than the tagging is the edit warring to remove the tags [58][59][60][61] without addressing the concerns raised. --Tgeairn (talk) 15:34, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Nobody here is claiming LF should be blocked just by tagging, it's the mass indiscriminate tagging with many clear examples tagging article topics that are most definitely notable (remember, WP:NOTABILITY is very clear:"Notability requires only the existence of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate citation."). Tagging the #5 UK hit Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song) article [62] demonstrates the indiscriminate, almost random nature of LF's tagging. As pointed out above, this has been going on for years. Notability tagging the Oliver Stone-directed film Seizure?[63] Clearly LF has learned nothing over the years. As the opening states, something needs to be done to keep this user in check. --Oakshade (talk) 15:47, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Mayhaps I am in the wrong here too. Seeing Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song), I would tag it for notability and sources as well. There are two references, one is not about the article subject at all, and the other is a completely unreliable source of user-generated trivia. Yes, if this was a #5 UK hit then it may be notable (per WP:NSONG) - but we don't even have a source for that. I'd still tag it, as NSONG has additional criteria for standalone articles. I'm not seeing clear examples of indiscriminate tagging. --Tgeairn (talk) 16:02, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    As for Seizure, it had zero references at the time of tagging. Of course it should be tagged or fixed on the spot. It now has a single reference (to Facebook, no less). The lack of a tag is hurting article quality, as nothing is drawing editors to find reliable sources for what is likely a notable film. Again, I would have tagged it too. --Tgeairn (talk) 16:06, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly, and the added tag asked for exactly what needed to be done: someone needed to add reliable sources that address the topic's notability.—Kww(talk) 16:11, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec) Tagging for more sources is one thing, but notability tagging which in effect says "This is not notable because I don't see sources" is a different matter. For Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song), with no surprise it only took me about 3 seconds to confirm it was a #5 hit as you would want confirmation for [64]. For Seizure, it took 2 seconds to find very in-depth coverage. [65] It's clear LF doesn't make any effort to follow WP:NOTABILITY and WP:BEFORE on obvious examples such as those and just slaps on notability tags.--Oakshade (talk) 16:13, 26 January 2015 (UTC)--Oakshade (talk) 16:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Note that WP:BEFORE isn't mandatory, isn't a guideline, and wouldn't be a relevant one if it was. It's a paragraph inside a page describing our AFD process and describes what to do before nominating an article for deletion. If Lachlan was dragging this many articles through AFD, I'd be in favor of a topic ban. Putting a tag on unsourced articles in the hopes that someone that cares about the topic will care enough to add a reliable source? That doesn't seem to warrant any kind of action.—Kww(talk) 16:34, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I think we'll just go back and forth on this about tagging for sources, which nobody here is having issue with, is a very different matter from mass indiscriminate tagging for notability which is beyond simply a request for sources and where the issue is with most editors here. Pretty much what I stated just above is where I'll leave it stand.--Oakshade (talk) 18:52, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If the only difference between the two tags is that the notability tag has an implication that makes it more successful in getting editors to actually add sourcing, I would see that as a fairly persuasive argument for using the notability tag.—Kww(talk) 19:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Disagree with that. The only time I would use the notability tag was if I saw an article that (a) looked non-notable, (b) I couldn't find any online sources, but (c) I was not familiar with it and could see that there may be something I'm missing. If I suspected it was possibly notable then I would add refimprove and see what happened; if I was fairly sure it was non-notable I would nom it for deletion. The notability tag is IMHO fairly useless in most circumstances. And especially with many of these where (b) doesn't apply anyway unless you're not trying. Black Kite (talk) 21:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Furthermore, empirical evidence has told me that expecting anyone to fix a top level tag at any time is just wishful thinking. Take a look at George Town SC, Historic church of Cúcuta, Iranian football league system, New Town, Luton and New England Interstate Route 19 - not a single source added on any of those articles for well over eight years. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:18, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong Support. The tags I have looked at mostly verge on the ridiculous. And there are many hundreds of them posted over the last few days. And they have done this before, and not learnt. They haven't even stopped for this ANI. And the only explantation posted is "You are just still upset about that Joy Division incident and are grasping at straws in an attempt to get back at me.", showing no understanding of the issues at hand. Something needs to be done, and this is a good start, else this disruption will continue. I would also support a motion to restrict drive by tagging by this user too, as most of them have no talk page discussions at all.--Mrjulesd (talk) 19:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per discussion below. NE Ent 23:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose ban as being Draconian (covering every single article "broadly construed"?) but suggest a stern warning that a topic ban on "music notability tags" is highly likely in future if too many bad notability tags do not stick. Collect (talk) 23:35, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    He was already given a stern warning. And that was 2012. He doesn't care about warnings.--Oakshade (talk) 05:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong support per WP:HITANDRUN - the way you fix articles is by doing this, not this. (See point 15 on my user page). Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 08:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - not buying the arguments of "there are loads of unreferenced things in this category", "NSONG is vague" or "they got this tag right!" - the fact is that tag bombing to this degree is almost always disruptive, and when many of these are blatantly wrong... then the user shouldn't be performing such actions. It's as simple as that. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Semi-automated tagging with Twinkle of a series of articles with minimal or no investigation is disruptive and probably a mark of tendentious editing. It does seems that this is an editor who does other things than that, fortunately. A strong Knock It The Hell Off message needs to be sent. Carrite (talk) 15:30, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Any admins wish to act on this now? Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 19:15, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    LF topic ban Discussion

    Copied from User_talk:Montanabw

    Of the current 6,823,643 articles, about a quarter million [66] have {{Unreferenced}} tags, to pick one example.

    Don't hate the player, hate the game. I actually do have a problem with tagging articles. Once upon a time some wikiperson had the road to hell is paved with good intentions idea that, upon finding a problem, instead of fixing it, they'd place a tag on the top the page so that some mythical, unicorn like massive herd of editors would appear and fix 'em. They're a bureaucratic, make work for other people abomination that should go away. Since so many folks like them, of course, a whatever-for-deletion would unfortunately be WP:POINTY which is why I haven't filed it. Given that they exist, and they're acceptable to the community, unless anyone can provide evidence that tags are consistently wrong, Lachlan Foley should not be banned from adding them. NE Ent 23:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    302860 for {{citation needed}}. Thank you for providing me with a method of verifying that adding that tag is of no particular benefit.—Kww(talk) 23:43, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I use {{citation needed}} when improving an article towards GA status, for information in the article when I found it that I'm prepared to believe is true, but haven't found a source for yet. The main difference here is that I take responsibility for the tag when I'm adding it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:28, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Request for an admin to close this topic ban proposal

    I can't imagine much more relevant discussion is forthcoming. --Mrjulesd (talk) 21:55, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Conduct of J Doug McLean

    This user is a published author, who has made some valuable contributions at Talk:lift (force). However, I am concerned about his conduct towards myself and others.

    I joined the discussion last August, partly because of this comment, arguing from authority against other authors and implying they were not "aware of these pressure forces". This was refuted by evidence from the sources. Since then, I have seen an ongoing pattern of incivility towards anyone who disagrees with him. To highlight just a few examples:
    8 October 2014: Claim that different numerical results are, "comparing what different sources say about precisely the same question".
    13 November 2014: Dismissal of reasoned review of evidence as 'intuition', 'speculation', and 'protestation' (previously brought to ANI).
    5 December 2014: Claim that source "supports what I've been arguing all along." (Refuted.)
    11 January 2015: Refusal to listen to another user, "at this point yours would seem to be a minority view. Does anyone else oppose my adding this new subsection?"

    Finally, I asked for specific evidence of verifiability for one of his claims and was not satisfied with his response. He has already been asked publicly and personally to refer to WP:VERIFICATION. He proposes insertion of a footnote that looks to me like WP:OR, but he only seems to refer to policy when it supports his argument.

    I've had enough of arguing with him. Please evaluate his conduct and take any steps necessary to protect the community. Burninthruthesky (talk) 13:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Doug McLean is a cited author in the article. In his published works he also criticises a standard introductory approach to the subject, and for many months now has been trying to push his minority PoV on the article. He has a clear conflict of interest, and to his credit has avoided editing himself but has confined himself to the talk page. However the discussions became interminable and sometimes less than gentlemanly, and I joined the debate to help manage them. That succeeded partially, though they now fill at least two archives,7 and 8, as well as the current talk page. Despite a strong warning there, and again on their talk page, the excessive pedantry still trickles on. I should like to propose a voluntary topic ban for say six months, both to give us all a breather and to give Doug a chance to learn more constructive approaches to editing Wikipedia. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. I certainly need a break from this endless conflict. It would be much easier for me just to remove the article from my watchlist, but I don't think that's the right thing to do. Burninthruthesky (talk) 07:57, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I participated in the discussion in question, often re-reading Doug McLean's and others' comments several times in order to better understand them, so I am quite familiar with the issue. There were/are disagreements among the editors including myself. In my view, at the times when the discussion began to border on incivility it was not Doug McLean who was being uncivil. While the administrators are welcome to wade through the walls of text on the Talk page, I don't think there's anything actionable there at least as far as Doug McLean's behavior. And I don't think bringing this up in AN/I is conducive towards building consensus. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 12:48, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Mr. Swordfish, after some pause for thought, I can perhaps understand why you don't see it. Doug is very knowledgeable, eloquent and persuasive. He would never sink to the level of calling someone a "dilettante" (as someone else did). But no amount of careful wording can hide the underlying message, "you're wrong" that has been consistently levelled against others, regardless of what the evidence says. No doubt some of the mistakes that have been alleged were in fact wrong. We all make mistakes. I know I've made some, and I've corrected myself where I can. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as we're willing to learn.
    You were rightly offended by the other incident, and chose to report it, as you are entitled. Personally I found that event far less distressing than the remainder of the last six months. Perhaps this helps you understand how I feel about this situation. If you do have any unresolved concerns about another editor's conduct, you should raise it with them, with evidence, in the appropriate place. If you have unresolved content issues, they should of course be raised on the article talk page. Burninthruthesky (talk) 20:41, 27 January 2015 (UTC); edited 22:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    As a participant in one of the most recent discussions, I have found Doug a bit verbose and maybe hard to get on the same page with, but definitely nothing actionable at AN/I. Sometimes debates go over-long. I think things have mostly been handled in a responsible way. That said, I haven't been over to that page in the last few months - I'll look at where things have gone since then and comment again if possible. That said, it's not at all unreasonable for people with a disagreement to be negative about one anothers' positions. Obviously he thinks we're wrong; we think he's wrong! I kinda wonder if any remaining content disputes might actually be best resolved with a conference call between the primaries or something, if that's feasible. 0x0077BE (talk · contrib) 15:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @0x0077BE: I can't agree that things were handled in a responsible way. To give a relevant example, at one point we were asked, "If 0x0077BE and Burninthruthesky think The Statement is true for some control volume other than the infinitely tall sliver, they need to tell us specifically what control volume that is and provide citable sources for their assertion."
    I don't think I made any such assertion (see my link to "evidence" above). Did you? Burninthruthesky (talk) 10:40, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Notability tagging, IMHO frivolous and disruptive, of a Star Trek episode

    An editor, User:Doniago, has been applying a "dispute as to notability" tag on our article for one of the 79 original Star Trek episodes, The Gamesters of Triskelion. Although this article could certainly use more links to out-of-universe discussion of the episode, it is quite obvious, and has been accepted for years, that every original Star Trek episode is notable enough to warrant an article. No explanation has been offered as to why this particular episode should be an exception (a point I make here with some hesitation, as it should not be taken as a basis for tagging a dozen or more other episodes either).

    There being no reasonable basis for questioning the notability of this particular episode, or any episode, I have attempted to remove the tag, although I have not removed a parallel tag asking for more links or citations. Doniago has repeatedly insisted on reinstating the tag. Ordinarily this would merely result in a talkpage discussion, which would eventually result in enough people who understand the historical importance of Star Trek coming to the page to create the obvious a consensus for notability. However, the community's time is its most precious asset and I do not believe it should be squandered in a lengthy discussion about a nonsensical tagging (after all, is there any doubt that if this article were taken to AfD, the result would be a speedy or snowball keep?)?

    I request input on whether my view of this as a frivolous tag is shared by others, or whether the community believes that in such a matter as this, we should engage in process for the process' own sake. (Notification being given to Doniago and on the article talkpage.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    All 79 episode articles are equally notable. Why Doniago feels otherwise, is a mystery to me. GoodDay (talk) 22:39, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Equally notable as any other. Are they a new editor(like myself) who is just a bit confused on how to go about making it clear that the article needs improvement? FlossumPossum (talk) 22:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not a new editor, just one who doesn't believe that all Star Trek episodes are notable any more than he would agree that all Lord of the Rings characters are equally notable. I asked for any prior consensus establishing that all ST episodes are inherently considered notable and was not provided one. I also asked for any independent source that had discussed the episode in significant detail and, again, was not provided with one. If the consensus is that all ST episodes merit an article regardless of how well-developed they are then I'll bow to that consensus, but I think to dismiss an editor's sincere concerns that an article may not meet Notability concerns, to summarily remove maintenance tags while not engaging in conversation on the matter, and to further dismiss the editor's concerns as "frivolous" is inappropriate. Then there's bringing the editor to ANI without making any evident effort to follow other Dispute Resolution processes... Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy to unwatch the article and let it remain as substandard as it is if trying to call attention to it is going to engender such a hostile and unwarranted response. DonIago (talk) 22:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    From what I've read at the article-in-question's talkpage, there's a consensus that the episode is notable. GoodDay (talk) 23:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    DonIago, if you can realistically imagine an article like that getting deleted at AfD on notability grounds, then you are new to Wikipedia, so I'll just gently tell you that such a deletion would be extremely unlikely and that you'll come to understand this with more experience. And if you understand already that the article wouldn't be deleted in such an AfD, then adding the notability tag is frivolous, as Brad says. There's a huge difference between saying an article needs improvement and that the topic is non-notable. Generally, if you think an article is substandard, unless it's seriously biased or misleading our readers, it's best to either WP:SOFIXIT or leave it alone. Putting in tags telling other people to fix it just uglies up the article and makes you look like a dick. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 01:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That's funny, I thought the point of tagging was to call out problems that needed to be fixed and that might go ignored otherwise. One doesn't need to be in a position to fix a problem to recognize that a problem exists, and is it not better to "fire off a flare", as it were, then to simply let substandard articles propagate? DonIago (talk) 04:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The intention of the tags was something like that, but they were another of those well-meaning ideas that (IMHO) hasn't worked in practice. The way to deal with a bad article is fix it yourself, or leave a note on the talk page with specific criticisms. If you don't care about it enough to do either of those things but tag the article anyway, you're just a busybody, and the tags make reading or editing the article distasteful enough that it's less likely to ever be improved. Edit warring over the tag compounds the problem, in this case to the point where it's worse than whatever was wrong with the article. Use the talk page, but also try to understand Wikipedia culture when deciding what to do about a particular article. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 05:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You'll have to forgive me if I don't give a lot of credence to the views of an IP editor who engages in borderline personal attacks and has less than a week's worth of editing under their belt. DonIago (talk) 05:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    In terms of Wikipedia practice that ship has long since sailed regardless of what we deletionists (I count myself as one) think. The tagging is frivolous and pointy and Doniago ought to meditate for a while on the meaning of NOTBURO, with administrative assistance if it comes to that.

    As a content question I don't have any real concern about our ability to write a neutral article about something as old as a TOS episode anyway, so I'm not particularly bothered by the articles' presence. There's millions of other articles that I'd chop (like all the BLP's) before getting around to the TOS episodes. No they're not equally notable, and I agree that Gamesters of Triskelion was one of the weaker ones despite the presence of Angelique Pettyjohn. But the presence of an article for each TOS ep is an ancient Wikipedia reality and if someone has an issue with it, it's best to start a Village Pump discussion (or Jimbo's talk page [ducks]) rather than tag bombing an article. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 23:01, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The most important thing right now, is that the back-and-forth adding/deleting of the tag, has stopped. GoodDay (talk) 23:10, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    One quatloo on keep. --NE2 23:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Somehow, I knew that kinda joke would surface :) GoodDay (talk) 00:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I approve. DonIago (talk) 00:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    In general, I think we have way too low of a bar on individual episodes and characters. In this case I do think its likely that this episode would be found notable but I don't think the tagging was in bad faith or is an issue for ANI though. I do think we need to have some wide ranging RFCs to nail down these criteria though. Personally, I think that if every episode is regularly covered by reviews, or in a "trek encyclopedia" etc that is not a sign of individual notability but series notability. To show episode notability, sources that do not cover every single episode are what we need. (IE, AV club, or TVCritic reviewing an ep does not show notability. When Time, or the NYT, or someone like that writes about an episode it does. ) Gaijin42 (talk) 03:09, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Thank you. That's pretty much exactly what the thrust of my argument has been with regards to this situation. DonIago (talk) 04:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Disrupting Wikipedia to make a point is a no-no even if the point being made is valid. Don't war over a content tag to pursue a larger wiki-crusade. If you want to pursue a crusade, start a mailing list thread or something. Non-notability of ST:TOS episodes is one of the stupider crusades a person could pursue in my opinion though. I can suggest some much better ones if you're interested (HHOS). 50.0.205.75 (talk) 05:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    This has long seemed to have been a problem. If something truly is "inherently notable", it should be trivial to cite sufficient sources showing that it is. I wouldn't have any issue at all citing sufficient references to maintain a full article on, say, a US President or a chemical element, so if anyone questioned notability there, I could quickly and definitively prove them wrong. If such references aren't available, it really is time to question the notability of the subject. That being said, the person questioning the notability should also have done their homework and done at least a reasonable search for references, and should note what they did that failed to find sufficient material to sustain a full article. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, the article has been tagged for needing citations since 2012 and was tagged for questionable notability in June of 2014. That suggests to me that it may be a case that either sources aren't available or no editors care to provide them. I made some effort to find sources that would not necessarily be expected to discuss a ST episode and couldn't find any (which isn't to suggest that they don't exist). The editors I attempted to discuss this matter with at the article's Talk page either could not or simply did not provide such sources either. If any source had been provided then we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. I didn't open an AFD because I think there probably is a worthwhile source out there somewhere, but if I can't find one and nobody else currently monitoring the article is willing/able to do the footwork, then IMO the Notability tag seems appropriate for the time-being. DonIago (talk) 21:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    A notability tag on an article like this would make Wikipedia look absurd and I will continue using energetic best efforts to remove such tags, whether or not I have immediate access to my library of secondary Star Trek sources as a given moment. I do not believe this sort of tilting at notability windmills should be encouraged, as it results in gross misuses of community time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Can I ask how exactly placing a notability template on an article results in a "gross misuse of community time"? As Seraphim indicated, if a subject is notable then providing a source shouldn't be a problem.
    In my estimation, by removing notability tags you're perpetutating the existence of potentially substandard articles while at the same time removing a tool that can lead to the improvement of those same articles. Put another way, I don't think I'm the one who's been frivolous and disruptive during this whole situation, and that's not even accounting for the fact that I was willing to discuss the matter while your first significant action beyond continually removing the tag was to raise the issue here. DonIago (talk) 15:39, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps, Newyorkbrad, it would be better if you used your "energetic best efforts" to chastise editors that persist in keeping unsourced articles in the project? If, indeed, the article was about a notable topic, correcting it should have been fairly simple. Encouraging projects to believe that they are immune to standard sourcing requirements is what causes the trouble, as their misbehaviour tends to spread.—Kww(talk) 19:13, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Keep in mind, before this ANI was started, the discussion in the episode's talk page did include sources. While we really prefer the sources to be included on the article, our pre-AFD checklist says that sources identified on talk page - if they would be the type to meet notability requirements - are sufficient to demonstrate notability. --MASEM (t) 19:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I've notified WP:STAR TREK. GoodDay (talk) 15:46, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And I've wandered over after seeing that post. :) The subject of whether or not an article on episodes of television series which only contain plots has come up a few times over the past couple of years since I've been involved with the project. It's not so much a case of whether or not the article is notable or not, just whether or not they meet the style guide for television episodes. Equally episodes of other series (Stargate SG-1 springs to mind) have been changed to redirects to the episode/season lists. Certainly for me, this is a much better situation than simply deleting the article entirely as it allows the historical article to be restored when expansion does occur. However, in previous discussions, those plots have been left alone as we've demonstrated as a project that we are working through the 700+ live action episode articles (nearing 100 GAs now) but we have well over 600 to go. Our TOS expert has returned and is working up "Space Seed" for FA, and I'm sure once he's through that then he'll intend to start fixing up the other TOS articles too. Plus since the publication of These Are The Voyages, there has been a resurgence in information avaliable as this published production notes and Nielsen ratings for all the TOS episodes for the first time. From online sources, I can quickly find two reviews from reliable sources (AV Club and Tor.com) specifically for this episode as well as a book discussing the slash relationship between Kirk and Spock hinted at in this episode and comparing it to the 1960's Batman series. I think the current tag requiring further citations is entirely appropriate, while it's notability isn't simply inherited by virtue of it's status as a TOS episode but by the coverage it has received. Miyagawa (talk) 17:02, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    My impression, as things seem to have quieted down in this discussion, is that there's no clear consensus as to whether the article should be tagged. While a citation to the NYT has since been added to the article, it is more of a throwaway contained within a review of a film than substantial coverage. As being tagged for notability does not harm the article and may lead to its improvement, my feeling is that the tag should be permitted for the time-being. As more than one editor noted above, if editors take issue with the article being tagged, they have the option of providing information with appropriate citations to establish how this particular episode is independently notable. All that being said, I obviously don't want to add the tag myself and then find myself back here, and I'm also concerned by Brad's previous statement that he "will continue using energetic best efforts to remove such tags". Would an admin be willing to support my or another editor's re-adding of the tag? Thank you very much. DonIago (talk) 14:38, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm about to add a source or two, so tagging would probably be a waste of time. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:13, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Hey Doniago. Let me start by saying that I understand your concerns, and they're not particularly new.

    We editors are but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of pop culture, and even a phenomenon like Star Trek really only has a couple of editors making things happen (h.t. especially to Miyagawa for picking up a lot of the slack I dropped while I was on ArbCom.) So while we work, there are a lot of articles that are mostly just summaries, because that was the easiest thing to add back in the day. And a year from now, a good deal of the 700-odd Star Trek episodes are going to in the same situation.

    I can understand it's frustrating to just be told "it is notable" without a lot of evidence for it, but that's the case when you're dealing with people with a greater knowledge of the subject; it might be obvious to us but not to you, and I don't think that's your fault. We're just dealing with inside baseball. I know I've come across articles from (admittedly smaller) franchises like Gundam and pointed out how they read as cruft, and had people up in arms in a similar way.

    I've gone ahead and added as ELs Tor and AV Club's review of the episodes, and there are a couple others that I don't think work as ELs that could be used as references.

    Articles like these really come down to, "is it worth deleting an article that has a lot of verifiable info out there, but which is not in the article," and "is it the challenger's responsibility to add that information?" I would say that it's in the spirit of wiki-collaboration to do your best to add, but also understand that a random article you come across isn't your area of expertise and we can't all be content mavens. With all respect to User:Newyorkbrad's determinations, I don't consider your edits disruptive (they are certainly less wasteful of everyone's time than going straight to AfD, and possibly deleting the article and having to recreate it later); I find tagging articles and keeping them on our radars a helpful thing to do, and that editors tend to get riled up by maintenance tags more than they should be.

    (On the subject of notability, I think it's arguable that Star Trek's immense notability doesn't exactly encompass all its episodes, but I think that's less true for the original series episodes, which have been the subject of many contemporary reviews, books on the production, etc. Later series like Voyager have less written about them on an individual basis and are the ones that might benefit from a merge into a season article, for instance; but first you'd have to get to each one and evaluate them with all the sources in hand.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 15:23, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks for your thoughtful comments David. For now I'm at least content to wait to see Sarek's improvements to the article, and I certainly don't think there's any rush to re-tag the article; my main concern was that I didn't want this filing archived without a clear indication of whether tagging the article would be acceptable, or would land me right back here.
    I certainly appreciate that progress on bringing the article to the point that (my) notability concerns are satisfied may take time, and I know there's no deadline. While I think it's appropriate to tag the article in its current condition, if someone was going to nominate it for deletion it wouldn't be me. As I've said, I consider one of the benefits of tagging to be that, while the article is waiting to be improved as part of a process, editors may be alerted to the issue via the tag and opt to improve the article on their own initiative. And as I also said, tagging the article doesn't do it any harm.
    I'd probably agree that TOS episodes are more likely to be notable than episodes of later series, though that could depend on which particular episodes are being compared.
    Anyway, thanks again. As I said, I'll hold off on re-tagging at least until I've seen Sarek's changes, and I'll wait to hear from an admin that re-tagging is permissible before I risk getting myself into (further?) trouble. DonIago (talk) 15:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Pinging: Newyorkbrad, DonIago, Miyagawa, SarekOfVulcan and David Fuchs. As I just noted on the article talk page, I've added some new material and sources with these edits. I trust this means the notability tag won't be re-added. It should be relatively simple to source the plot summary to reliable sources and that will enable the 'additional citations' tag to be removed as well. I suggest this ANI section is now closed, and discussion continues on the article talk page.

    As an aside, some of the television studies sources on Star Trek are well worth using in other articles. The source on Who Mourns for Adonais? was fascinating - I was surprised to find that source wasn't in our article on that episode, and may return to that later if time permits. Carcharoth (talk) 09:13, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Massive POV pushing problem at WP:FRINGE and Indo-Aryan topics

    A group of Hindu POV editors are pushing the Fringe POV that the Indo-European languages originated in India. They are doing this through absurd argumentation such as systematically misrepresenting linguistic facts and making absurd Randy from Boise type arguments such as this one[67]. For the record I have made uncivil comments in response to frustration over the absurd "argumentation" displayed by one of the editors, Bladesmulti (talk · contribs). If there is a boomerang in store for me that is worth it to get some administrative support at these discussions. The discussions are located at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Proposed_Hypothesis.2FTheory_as_fact and Talk:Indo-Aryan_migration_hypothesis.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    For how long you have discussed the hypothesis on fringe theory noticeboard? Only 30 minutes? I had only asked you to name "a single scientist who claims it(hypothesis) to be scientific?" Can you consider finding one instead of misinterpreting a hypothesis as a science when it is contradictory to the actual scientific researches and accepted migration(Early human migrations)? You are clearly contradicting the Wikipedia:FRINGE clearly says that "It is important that original hypotheses that have gone through peer review do not get presented in Wikipedia as representing scientific consensus or fact." When you are aiming to represent it as a fact. Bladesmulti (talk) 23:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You meanwhile are countering my citations to prominent indoeuropeanists in peer reviewed academic presses with citations to books written by Punjabi accountants and supported by money from religious hindutva organizations[68]. So why should anyone take a word you say seriously? You are promoting fringe views and attempting to marginalize the mainstream academic view through obfuscation and outright lying. You need to be topic banned from anything related to ancient India caus eyou are clearly not here to write an encyclopedia.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:01, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Much nonsense. In fact my citations have better quality. Now show me a single fringe view that I have promoted? Doubting the scientific status of a hypothesis, that already has no acceptance in the scientific community is not actually incorrect but it is the reflection Wikipedia:FRINGE that warns you against interpreting unscientific hypothesis as fact. Bladesmulti (talk) 00:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You are an admitted advocate of Ayurveda, Blades. Is that not sufficiently fringe for you? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 09:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Where did I admit it? Bladesmulti (talk) 09:35, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (It should be noted that Blades has changed the text in his comment above so that my response to him looks slightly odd. I was in fact replying to his comment "Show me a single fringe view that I have promoted?" which he has now changed to mean something a little different. an unfortunate , but not untypical action. It would be accurate to point out that Blades is a wp:spa account dedicated to the promotion of fringe views and pseudoscience.) -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Whatever else Bladesmulti may or may not be, they are not a single-purpose account. I seem them pop up all over the place, fixing the rampant problems relating to caste articles etc and whatever this argument is about, it has nothing to do with the issues that they are usually fixing there. - Sitush (talk) 13:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Anyone can see that from the diff. Oh and nice jokes, only because your pseudohistorical revisionism didn't got accepted even after a huge RfC. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:18, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    What diff? What jokes? Also, I've asked you before to explain what "Pseudohistorical Revisionism" actually means, but you have never answered. Do you actually know what it means? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    See Pseudohistory, describes it. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    In discussion at the Administrators Noticeboard. Do you deny it? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 09:52, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not directly neither indirectly, only discussed it. You are mixing things there, and I am not getting that what it has to even do here, unless that is a violation of a policy. Bladesmulti (talk) 09:58, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I assume you don't deny it then. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    What is your base? I had asked for some links that you have not yet provided. Don't worry about the 0 revert rule on that page, it wouldn't be removed through this way. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm sorry Blades, your comment above doesn't make any sense at all. For the record, my base is London, but other than that, I cannot make any sense of the above remark. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Clearly I had asked for the link for the above claims that you have made. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, you don't appear to have made such a request, unless it is couched in language that is so obfuscatory that it has passed me by. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:39, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    [69] was itself enough for any regular user to understand. Now just admit that you cannot show your claimed red herring, in form of diffs, but gibberish. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I made no claims regarding fish, or food of any kind. I merely pointed out that you advocate for the pseudoscience of Ayurveda, contrary to your claim above that you do not promote fringe material. I had not realised that you advocate for fringe topics outside pseudoscience as well. Could you please explain your reference to gibberish above. Is that a personal attack? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 11:02, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't mind if you point to at least one such topic. Bladesmulti (talk) 11:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You could start by examining the three examples that Maunus maunus maunus provided in the first post to this thread. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 11:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    A general point about 'Fringe' on Indo Aryan topics:- According to Upinder Singh "The original homeland of the Indo-Euorpeans and Indo-Aryans is the subject of continuing debate among philologists, linguists, historians, archaeologists and others. The dominant view is that the Indo-Aryans came to the subcontinent as immigrants. Another view, advocated mainly by some Indian scholars, is that they were indigenous to the subcontinent." She acknowledges that "Subhash Kak has argued that the astronomical references in the Rigveda can be dated 4000-2000 BCE". She goes on to say "The date of Rig Veda remains a problematic issue." That means we don't know about the origins of vedic people nor their period, so to be encyclopedic we should recognize this uncertainty and not reject views of scholars disagreeing with Kurgan_hypothesis as only 'fringe'. That makes no sense. A dominant view is not necessarily the only view and it is not necessarily always correct. Dominant number of people in Europe disagreed with Galileo when he proposed his heliocentic view. He was even arrested for it. That does not make him 'fringe' and certainly not wrong.[1]. In order to be balanced the correct picture of this uncertainty should be reflected in the articles dealing with this subject. Rather than targeting editors who are trying to bring this balance. Every scholar who disagrees with Kurgan_hypothesis does not necessarily become a hindu nationalist and any editor bringing about the balance by pointing out uncertainty does not become Hindu POV pusher. Indoscope (talk) 09:51, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Propose topic ban for User:Bladesmulti

    User Bladesmulti has a long history of POV pushing on India and Hinduism related articles. They are using wikilawyering and other strategies to systematically misrepresent the scholarly mainstream consensus in the field and create insane amounts of work for good faith editors to defend the mainstream views acrosss different articles related to hinduism and the history of India. I propose they be topic banned from the topic area.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Disagreeing with a unscientific hypothesis should lead to topic ban? Really? None of your scholarly mainstream consensus holds any weight on scientific world, and atleast when they don't even talk about the scientific evidence but mostly the proposed linguistic similarities. I have mentioned before too, that no one has professed this hypothesis since 2011(DNA researches[70]-[71]) like they did before. Bladesmulti (talk) 00:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, POV pushing, lying and obfuscating, using unreliable sources, misrepresnrting reliable sources, and misrepresenting policy should lead to a topic ban.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:26, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • And where are the diffs? We also see scholars who actually claim the advocacy of these unscientific hypothesis as "unscientific".[72](changed) Bladesmulti (talk) 00:31, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Do you even read what you quote you gigantic moron. That is Jamison describing the proponents of the "Indigenous Aryan" hypothesis. For crying out loud when you cant even read three sentences in a row without getting them to mean the opposite of what they actually mean then how can you even claim to be competent enough that you should be allowed to edit here. You are pure and simple a waste of bandwidth and other editor's time and a clear detriment to the project of building an encylcopedia.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:04, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Gigantic moron"? You were asked to provide diffs, not to repeat the same inflammatory nonsense. Oh and where did I said that I was talking about the Indo-aryan hypothesis and not Indigenious Aryans? I was saying that I am not in favor of either hypothesis, again you have failed to grasp what I was saying. OK you can see [73]-[74], the elements of Indo-Aryan hypothesis are indeed pseudoscientific. Bladesmulti (talk)
    You changed the quote where an actual linguist states that your favorite pov is emotional and unscientific to a link to a book by notorious hindutva hack Srikanth Talageri in an attempt to show that the mainstream view is "pseudoscientific". An edition of the Rigveda does not show anything about the scientific consensus about indoeuropean linguistics. Honestly I wish I could get blocked here so I wouldnt have to feel responsible for not stopping your abuse of wikipedia. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You seem to be confusing opinions with the Wikipedia:FRINGE if a person(I mentioned as scholar) from the same field has expressed view, that is similar with many others, we cannot rejected it. It is considered that both of the hypothesis are incorrect, the previous one, "Indo Aryan" invasion theory is already rejected by mainstream as pseudoscientific. You are still not understanding that we cannot consider any of your claimed mainstream linguistic understanding, when all of them comes before the DNA researches. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Could you perchance show a source that suggests that the "DNA Researches" (which say the opposite of what you believe they say) are relevant for the question of Indo-Aryan migrations?User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 05:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not even close to that,[75] report says that no genetic influx took place. And suggesting[76] that there was no admixture for over 40,000 years. In order to analyze the material about the proposed migrations, it is necessary to mention the DNA researches. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Indiatoday? That is your answer?User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 06:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And times of India,(who derived it from Harvard medical[77]), all 3 are reliable. Bladesmulti (talk) 06:38, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No they are not reliable sources for genetics, and their summaries coontradict the abstract of the study they are supposedly summarizing.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    From where you have confirmed that? Bladesmulti (talk) 15:50, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Without a significant number of diffs this proposal will not go anywhere and is just a waste of time. And the latest comment should send a WP:BOOMERANG flying. --NeilN talk to me 02:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'd suggest a boomerang as well for Maunus. There's no evidence of problematic behavior actually presented here aside from just claims made here. I tried to make sense of the actual content dispute over at the Fringe noticeboard, [78] but there really aren't sources being brought forth by anyone that really establish scientific consensus per WP:RS/AC. Just seems like a difficult content dispute that's tough to gauge where the actual weight lies without really delving into the topic. That being said, asking for an editor to be topic banned without clearly articulating the actual problem with actual diffs is not a content dispute, but just plain bad behavior. That doesn't mean their concerns aren't legitimate, but if they're going to make the claim, they need to really back it up. Right now I'm just seeing WP:ASPERSIONS. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:48, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I am prepared for boomerangs. However if anyone is actually interested in writing an encyclopedia here they would be more concerned about religiously motivated POV pushing in science articles. Kingofaces is talking without any knowledge about the topic except for a google search and he has not looked at any of the actual evidence provided.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That still looks like aspersions. You're only shooting yourself in the foot at this point. The "google search" you refer to was actually through literature databases like Web of Science, etc (though Google Scholar isn't half bad). Considering the general attitude I'm seeing here and things like "I would suggest that everyone who is not a professional historical linguist step back and listen to those who are actually knowledgeable in this area." [79] a boomerang seems warranted in this case. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:39, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Look, I dont care. You are the one who ise going to end up looking like an idiot when you sanction someone who knows what they are talking about in order to support a religious nutcase with no clue and no competence.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    At least learn to spell before repeating some inflammatory nonsense. Bladesmulti (talk)
    At ANI, you don't just make a claim and run. You need to back it up. If you want someone topic banned for being a religious POV nutcase, then you need to actually demonstrate that's occurring and it's being disruptive. Not doing that is why you aren't being taken seriously here and why the only justification for any action is against you right now. You've made your bed in this matter, so I'm not going to try to help anymore if all you're going to do is only make accusations. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:24, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Lol. "At ani you dont just make a claim and run"... How long have you been frequenting ANI? I am however not running anywhere. Thanks for all your "help".User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:30, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I do see some signs of disruptive editing on the part of Bladesmulti here. Not sure yet whether it rises to the level where immediate sanctions are called for, but at least a warning is probably appropriate (and I'll notify him of the India discretionary sanctions, just in case). Blademulti's behaviour at the noticeboard thread on Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard and in the related discussions at Talk:Indo-Aryan migration theory tends towards WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT type of stonewalling. What's more, this edit from today [80] appears to be removing a validly sourced claim and a footnote to an appropriate source, without any explanation in an edit summary and no discussion on talk. As far as I can see, the point in question, that the Indo-Aryan migration also has genetic evidence in its favour besides linguistic and archaeological, is precisely relevant to the objections he was trying to raise in those discussions. He was claiming that there was a lack of "scientific" evidence for migration; here now we have a source providing just that (I checked the pages in question; the source does support exactly what it says). Unless he can come up with a very surprising good explanation for this edit, I would certainly count this as disruptive tendentious editing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Future Perfect at Sunrise Yesterday I had removed the same one from Indo-European migrations with edit summary "not in citation" because the cited book[81] has no mention(of even Aryan) or support towards that claim. At p.167 it is talking about 10,000 years old,[82] which was later superseded. At page.168 it says about one of the same hypothesis that genetic evidence provides no support. It wasn't objected there and I was actually pointed on my talk page for similar changes that yes it wasn't on the citation. On this page, that you have pointed, I was only repeating the same change. It is mostly me and Joshua who are making most of the changes on these pages in last few months. Bladesmulti (talk) 14:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, we clearly have a WP:COMPETENCE issue here. The cited source says on p.167: "This strongly suggests that M17 is an Indo-European marker, and shows that there was a massive genetic influx into India from the steppes within the last 10,000 years. Taken with the archaeological data, we can say that the old hypothesis of an invasion of people – not merely their language – from the steppe appears to be true". Whether or not it mentions the term "Aryan", this is about as clear as it gets. Bladesmulti, if you do not recognize this source for what it is, then it will be a lot better for the project if you do not continue try to edit in topic areas like this. I am now officially warning you that I will take action against your editing under WP:ARBIPA discretionary sanctions if you continue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:35, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Another competence issue is seen on this very page when he quotes Bryants book as calling the Aryan migraiton theory "emotional" and "unscientific" when in fact it is Jamison saying that about the Indigenous Aryan theory. That can only be explained as either a bad faith attempt at obfuscating well knowing that most editors wont read the source he presents, or it is such an amazing lack of competence that he probably should not be allowed to edit at all. Every time he has presented a source it has had similar problems. Either they are veiled propaganda sources published by people with no relevant credentials backed with Hindutva money, or he misrepresents the conclusions of actual studies such as the genetic study which exactly argues that NOrth Indians (Indo-European speakers) are genetically distinct from South Indians and have genetic connections with IE speakers in Europe and Central Asia. So there are two possibilities, lack of competence or bad faith. Either way I am not intetrested in wasting more time on it and hence proposed the topic ban.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There is competence issue on your part here. I hadn't mentioned either hypothesis in the post, thus you got it wrong, but I had changed it for you so it couldn't look anymore meaningless, you had expected just opposite. Yet you claimed that I am showing wrong wording of the policy when I had shown completely correct. Not your rapid OR/SYNTH that you have just made up above. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:50, 27 January 2015 (UTC)(rephrased)[reply]
    Enough. You were caught red-handed in blatant misrepresentation of sources, claiming [83][84] that reliable sources called the mainstream hypotheses "emotional" and "unscientific", when the source you used was in fact saying the exact opposite, and now you are trying to wiggle out of it [85] by claiming you didn't actually say which hypothesis you were referring to? When it was perfectly clear from the context of the first two posts that you could only be referring to the hypotheses your opponents were claiming to be the mainstream, i.e. the migration view? This is getting more than just bizarre now. You really need to back off from this topic, in which you have entangled yourself hopelessly, or somebody will have to make you disengage from it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If that's that case, I have just told before that I would rather contribute with more caution. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:35, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That edit isn't great. The real issue here is the usual content dispute that emerges when people try to use DNA evidence in Indic articles. The source Bladesmulti removed, for example, appears to be at least 13 years old and is a subjective interpretation in a rapidly-evolving area of scientific knowledge. Almost certainly, we need to be couching things in much more circumspect terms and attributing them within the text itself. But, still, Blades should argue for that circumspection rather than just wipe it as they did. Maunus, in my experience, is not keen on circumspection so the entire thing could well end up at DRN or similar. - Sitush (talk) 14:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes it shows 10k for the migration into the US, although such dating have been updated for years, it is about 15,000 now. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:40, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Maunus that Blades' defending tooth and nail of a hopeless position is highly annoying. Yet, he still seems to know when to stop, in contrast to some other biased editors. I've also seen some constructive discussions at the related talkpages, for example Talk:Indigenous Aryans#Balance, which gives me good hope that most editors involved can still work together. The Fringe Theory Noticeboard gave a very clear statement, with which we can go forward, I think (well, most of us, not everyone diff, thread). So, I'd prefer to give Blades again the benefit of doubt. This being said, I very highly appreciate Maunus' contributions, and hope to meet him again in this area! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:33, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    What is wrong with the admins who are watching this page, calling someone a gigantic moron by a former admin is OK? Maunus has a history of making personal attacks and he is being given a very long rope here. This very much looks like a content dispute and Maunus just wants to silence the other party. Most of his complaints are not really backed up by any diffs. -sarvajna (talk) 10:49, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Topic-ban proposal for Robert Walker

    I have proposed a topic-ban at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Topic-ban proposal for Robert Walker, after re-opening the discussion (Wikipedia talk:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Not very happy about recent closure of debate) which was just closed. See below. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I believe this is the correct link.VictoriaGraysonTalk 14:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, you're right. Thanks. What an irony: a self-referring link. Somehow fits into the whole discussion... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ Singh, Upinder. A History of Ancient and Early Mediaeval India: From the Stone Age to the 12th Century. Pearson Education India. pp. 185–186. ISBN 978-81-317-1120-0. Retrieved 28 January 2015.

    RfC is opened

    I've opened an RfC at Talk:Indigenous Aryans#RfC: the "Indigenous Aryans" theory is fringe-theory. Let's keep it civilised. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:25, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Issues continuing at The Lost River

    Many of the same cast of characters discussed/discussing above are now tangling at The Lost River, another ancient-India-related article. My attention was called to that, by this: Wikipedia_talk:Fringe_theories#Books_advocating_a_fringe_theory. We have three big threads on this page with these folks. I think Robert McClenon was correct back on Jan 27 when he recommended) that these threads be shut down and an arbitration enforcement case be opened under WP:ARBIPA with respect to India-related issues. Jytdog (talk) 15:42, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Agreement and restatement

    As User:Jytdog points out, there is a lot of heated discussion between specific editors about various topics involving ancient India. In my opinion, this noticeboard should not try to adjudicate conduct issues that can be adjudicated by Arbitration Enforcement, and the ancient history of India is subject to WP:ARBIPA, because, as the arbitrators have restated, the modern conflicts on the Indian subcontinent are inextricable from the ancient history of the region. The administrators at Arbitration Enforcement do a good job of deliberate application and enforcement of sanctions. The community should not try to adjudicate conduct issues that have already been identified as polarizing the community, and India is such an area. Take the ancient India issues to Arbitration Enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    One particular editor has been identified as having conduct issues that go beyond ancient India, and include Buddhism, which is not subject to discretionary sanctions except with respect to its country of origin (and the locus appears to be Tibetan Buddhism, not Indian Buddhism). Conduct issues involving Buddhism really are in scope here, such as the request for a topic-ban. I did propose an interaction ban with respect to stalking on an India-related issue, and I request that its discussion be continued, because the most obvious evidence of the stalking took place before that editor was notified of discretionary sanctions, and because stalking is contrary to Wikipedia policy without respect to discretionary sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I suggest that the India-related threads be closed and taken to Arbitration Enforcement. I will let the community decide how the original threads should be closed, by consensus here, or by moving to Arbitration Enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks. The problems with RW do indeed stand apart from the india-topic; it should be judged on its own. Regarding the IAMt, OIT & FRINGE, personally I'd prefer to let the RfC run its course, so everyone can participate and give their arguments, and we can settle this issue once and for all. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:46, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with the analysis of JJ. As the RFC has improved much of the article already. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:55, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't agree. The RFC has been deadlocked with the same old arguments and the attitudes of the editors pushing fringe theories haven't changed. We can give the RFC some more time. But it would be wrong to conclude that the issues have been resolved. Far from it. Kautilya3 (talk) 18:15, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I have improved the article; Indoscope has aided to this (oh irony), by providing summaries of various "publications." I simply hope that this RfC is binding; if not, can ArbCom make a binding statement on the "status" of the OOI/Indigenist campaign? Or can they "only" (it's not "only," of course; it's quite a lot, I guess) sanction specific editors, judging on their behavior? Or can ArbCom also say: "This is fringe, it should not be given undue weight, and if you do so, DS applies, since this is about India"? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:40, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Though it surely would help if we could close a couple of threads on OOI. I'm getting old; I have to check at which thread I'm responding when I click the "save page" button... NB: apologies for posting too many messages that I'd opened a ANI-thread on you-know-who; I was quite pissed. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:44, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Behavior of Keepitreal2

    This is not the place to re-hash a content dispute. I have watchlisted the article and talk page as well as the talk pages of the users involved. Any further edit warring will result in a block. Sock puppetry will result in a much longer block. Settle this with discussion please. Chillum 16:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I am not 100% sure if this should be in Sockpuppet investigations, Edit warring or on this page. If I am in the wrong place, please let me know, I will move it.

    I am requesting administrator intervention regarding Keepitreal2 behavior on Missouri Executive Order 44. Keepitreal2 has absolutely refused to discuss the edit made by her, instead demanding that all the editor "Let me be clear, give up already"

    Keepitreal2 made 4 edits in December 2014 to Missouri.

    1. (cur | prev) 21:30, 30 December 2014‎ Keepitreal2 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (23,779 bytes) (+69)‎ . . (Removing it all validates my position it was an inconvenient truth.) (undo | thank)
    2. (cur | prev) 18:06, 27 December 2014‎ Keepitreal2 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (23,778 bytes) (+2)‎ . . (Undid revision 639714447 by Ecjmartin (talk) Many is not maximizing. It is accurate. The word missive incorrect, it was not a message or a letter, it is an ORDER. An inconvenient truth for you) (undo | thank)
    3. (cur | prev) 14:37, 25 December 2014‎ Keepitreal2 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (23,778 bytes) (+2)‎ . . (Undid revision 638664905 by Ecjmartin (talk) minimizing the deaths is not appropriate) (undo | thank)
    4. (cur | prev) 19:08, 7 December 2014‎ Keepitreal2 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (23,778 bytes) (+919)‎ . . (Undid revision 636978996 by Ecjmartin (talk) Speculation has no place here. Facts only. To state the Militia did or did not know is pure speculation and is unverified) (undo | thank)

    User:Ecjmartin (multiple times) and User:Tripleahg (one time), and user:AsteriskStarSplat attempting to use the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, reverted what (and I agree) were WP:POV edits. All three asked Keepitreal2 to discuss it on the talk page. Instead Keepitreal2 refused saying things like "Talk page addressing was not necessary". The Keepitreal2 began to using an IP address to edit instead:

    1. (cur | prev) 01:53, 21 January 2015‎ 2607:fb90:765:fc7a:aee7:3fa9:be63:ce08 (talk)‎ . . (23,783 bytes) (+352)‎ . . (Undid revision 642848168 by Ecjmartin (talk) Talk page adressing was not necessary. The issues were previously answered in explaining edits and were redundant.) (undo)
    2. (cur | prev) 13:34, 16 January 2015‎ 2607:fb90:2903:559d:2f78:15e8:5153:1b40 (talk)‎ . . (23,783 bytes) (+352)‎ . . (Adding edits back. My points are clear and concise. Inconvenient truth for some perhaps. Talk all you want,.) (undo)

    I came along on 21 January 2015‎ and reverted Keepitreal2 myself and also requested that she take it to the talk page. Ecjmartin open a discussion. The on 26 January 2015‎ the IP editor restored Keepitreal2 version, again refusing to discuss the issue here:

    1. (cur | prev) 19:15, 26 January 2015‎ 2607:fb90:2903:2eeb:e7e3:ecad:b8ef:48f8 (talk)‎ . . (25,872 bytes) (+969)‎ . . (InconvInconvenient truth. Stop trying to change history. As stated before, there is no proof they had no knowledge and given the political positions the men had there is more probability they knew than did not. Let me be clear, give up already) (undo)

    This lead to the page being Semi-Protected for a month. In response, instead of taking the issues to the discussion, twice user Keepitreal2 posted on my talk page (here and here) that she is doing "Nothing wrong", that she "was not the one disrupting". She treated to "Report me". Then she stated that she is a "female", something we had no idea she was until today, and that we (Ecjmartin and myself) were "misogynistic" since we disagree with a "female". Lastly she states that "unequivocally you have an agenda" since I am not "Mormon" (the page is about Mormons), but I edit on "Mormon topics". Ironically, just this week I was accused of being a "Mormon apologists" here. Apparently I'm bias as a Non-Mormon Mormon apologists who can't make even ONE edit on pages about "Mormon topics".

    Clearly Keepitreal2 has been edit waring, Sockpuppeting, and Uncivil. She refuses to use the talk page and follow Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Instead of addressing the issue she makes Uncivil comments. An admin need to address this behavior. What this is I leave to the administer.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 16:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Actually it is me who has been bullied. My verifiable, scholared, sourced edits removed repeatedly. Being forced to state the same statements over and over. Deleting my response to conversations about me. I am being silenced. I am being falsely accused of having previous interactions with this person. The list goes on and on. It is infact misogynistic to assume I am male and refer to me as such. Yet another example of inconvenient truth. Keepitreal2 (talk) 17:32, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    (Non-administrator comment) Just looking through some of your contributions Keepitreal2, I think you have been acting at the very least Rashly. You claim non mormons editing mormon pages must have an agenda which suggests POV issues.1 You've repeatedly re-inserted the information without discussion on the talk pages failing WP:BRD.2 and you're account has only edited pages related to this one dispute. If you just go to the talk page and discuss the best way to present information available in reliable sources this is much less likely to blow up into a dispute. SPACKlick (talk) 17:52, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Well to the casual observer it might appear that way unless you look at User:ARTEST4ECHO userpage and observe the history/pattern of the editor who started the disruption User:Ecjmartin consistently teaming with / awarding artest4echo on anti Mormon edits. Not playing into their mob mentality does not place me in the wrong. Seeing their pattern of promoting their agenda puts me in a position to demonstrate their abuses. Keepitreal2 (talk) 18:45, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I welcome anyone to read what Keepitreal2 calls a "consistant pattern of teaming / awarding artest4echo on anti Mormon edits". It is all contained at User_talk:ARTEST4ECHO#A_question.... Please go read it.
    However in a nutshell, User:Ecjmartin came to me, as a long time editor, to ask me what the proper procedure was to handle an IP editor who refused to use the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. He was frustrated and about to leave Wikipedia.
    I told him what another unrelated administrator (who I think is Mormon) told me when I asked him the same question, but on a different page. We both agreed that the best thing to do was start a Talk:Missouri_Executive_Order_44#Recent_edits and again ask the IP editor to talk. If that didn't happened, then the admin suggested taking it to WP:ANI. We decided instead to request Page Protection, as it can be hard to block an IP editor. If that failed, then we would go to WP:ANI. Keepitreal2 was only mention when Ecjmartin noticed that the edit summaries for the IP editor and Keepitreal2 were exactly the same and that was after Page Protection was applied, and only in the last response.
    If asking an IP editor to talk about his edits or answering a request for information on WP policy is a "consistent pattern of teaming / awarding artest4echo on anti Mormon edits", then I guess I'm guilty. However, so is every editor are most follow Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle and ask for information from others. Again I find it funny that I'm guilty of "anti Mormon edits" when I only ever edited Missouri Executive Order 44 ONCE, but I'm also a "Mormon apologists" pushing a Pro-Mormon Agenda on other pages at the same time.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 19:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It is wrong-headed to characterize ARTEST4ECHO's edit's as anti-Mormon. In the time I've been editing WP with this account, as well as during my earlier editing as an IP, I have never seen a single edit from him that could be properly described that way. Instead he has made significant, useful, generally even-handed contributions to the text of literally hundreds (if not thousands) of articles related to the LDS Church, and the Latter Day Saints movement as a whole. Additionally, you may not realise this, but ARTEST4ECHO is personally responsible for finding and adding as much as perhaps 75% of all of the photos used on biography article of the leaders of the LDS Church here on Wikipedia, and a significant percentage of the images for Latter Day Saints movement topics as a whole.
    It normally doesn't matter why any editor develops an interest in editing any article, as long as the edits themselves conform with the expectations and norms of the Wikipedia community. Wikipedia is a volunteer service which is here to build an encyclopedia by working together to come to a consensus on what should be included on the articles. In any community, disputes will arise, and there are methods of formally resolving user conduct disputes, but those are rarely needed when everyone remains calm, and the focus remains on the the edits (ie content and context) and not the editors. Even incivility is tolerated to a degree, so long as it is not disruptive.
    I personally find Keepitreal2's actions moderately disruptive, that editor's accusations rash and groundless, and that editor's unwillingness to truly dialog (which is different in attitude and approach than taking pot-shots at people one disagrees with) as unproductive. I have no opinion if that editor deserve any formal sanctions. However if Keepitreal2 is in fact Mormon, they need to learn what was described at Talk:Temple garment/Archive 8#This Article Is Completely Inappropriate, with a particular focus on the 5 enumerated points that start with quotes from M. Russell Ballard. To borrow a quote from someone else: "we can disagree without being disagreeable". —Asterisk*Splat→ 21:24, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't intentionally exclude Ecjmartin above - merely an unfortunate oversight on my part. Ecjmartin also doesn't deserve the anti-Mormon epithet, nor should his efforts be disparaged. —Asterisk*Splat→ 21:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    In the spirit of you requesting dialog, I will counter your assertions with four simple concepts:

    1. Although after being repeatedly advised it is misogynistic to assume I am male and refer to me as such, Artest4echo is still refering to me as "his" even in these resposes here. Clearly he has an issue and my assertion in the matter continues to be validated.

    2. Having contributed such a large portion has given him a God complex and he feels he is the absolute authority. One could argue a person with that much contribution makes the subject lopsided or skewed to said persons opinion.

    3. Not one acknowledgement or discussion of my concerns here have been addressed.

    4. Skewing an article to slander a group of people which takes away the extreme injustice done to them does make someone "anti". It doesn't have to be done overtly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keepitreal2 (talk • contribs) 23:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    @Keepitreal2: Thank you for taking the time to respond here. I have responded in kind at User talk:Keepitreal2, where we can more easily continue this dialog. —Asterisk*Splat→ 15:31, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The only time I used the word "His" on this ENTIRE page was when I said "If asking an IP editor to talk about his edits or answering a request for information on WP policy is a "consistent pattern of teaming / awarding artest4echo on anti Mormon edits", then I guess I'm guilty." I was referring to IP editors in general, and proper English uses Male titles unless specified. Additionally, when referring to Keepitreal2 specifically, once she said she was a female, I never used the word "Him", "He" or "His".--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 16:58, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I attempted dialog with Keepitreal2 on that editor's talk page, as it appeared above that the editor was willing to do so. Based on this most recent exchange, as well as those with others, Keepitreal2 appears to display an unacceptable level of I can't hear you, TRUTH!, I'm right and you are wrong, and temper tantrum behaviors. Additionally, based on Keepitreal2's interactions with others, the editor generally appears to be unwilling or unable to maintain a minimal level of civility and Wikiquette, particularly by displaying an unacceptable degree of Carthago delenda est about those who are perceived as not agreeing with that editor. Because of this, I formally add my voice to those requesting intervention: a short block of Keepitreal2 seems to be in order, and perhaps a ban from the Missouri Executive Order 44 article itself (but not the talk page) for a month following the block. Hopefully after that action Keepitreal2 will better demonstrate that they are here to build an encyclopedia. —Asterisk*Splat→ 17:44, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Yet another example of abuse. They were very aware I was not an IP editor but rather jumped on the fact I was not logged in due to clearing my cache. Abusing this tactic to get their way. As you can view on ARTEST4ECHO talk page history, It was made very clear to him. Also note Ejcmartins acknowledged reference of knowing it was me prior to subitting their false accusations. Also note on my talk page I informed him I was going to report him, so he then turned around and repoted me. Keep digging yourself deeper if you like. Keepitreal2 (talk) 19:36, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Since this has clearly become a case of Wikipedia:Don't fight fire with fire and Wikipedia:Do not feed the trolls, I will just leave it to the administrators and other editor on this board to read my talk page, Keepitreal2 comments, History:Missouri Executive Order 44 (including Pre-"clearing my cache IP edits" on the 5th and 6th of December) and Talk:Missouri Executive Order 44:Recent edits. Then administrator can decided what to do.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 20:02, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    We agree on something. Thank you for pointing out not fighting fire with fire. I'm confident the administration will look at the timestamp of me informing you I was going to report you and the timestamp you reported me. As well as the edits/deletions to your userpage and talkpage. Good day sir. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keepitreal2 (talk • contribs) 20:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I am just returning home from work, and so am just now able to reply. Other than saying 'thank you' to Asterik and Artist, I simply wish to refer all disinterested parties to the talk page for this article. I have been repeatedly accused of ignoring an "inconvenient truth," of making "false accusations," of promoting an "anti-Mormon agenda," and now of displaying a "mob mentality." Yet when I invited my accuser to come to the talk page and discuss her concerns there, she refused--not once, but repeatedly. I do not intend to answer these baseless accusations any further, save to refer disinterested parties to the relevant pages, where they may compare my entries with hers and judge for themselves. I do not claim to be 100% 'in the right' here, and if I am judged by a consensus of disinterested WP editors/administrators to be in any way in the wrong, I am prepared to offer an apology and amend my future conduct. I am not asking here for any specific sanctions against anyone; I simply wish to concur in and support Artist's efforts to end this fruitless 'edit war' and make this article the best possible article it can be.

    My original offer still stands, Keepitreal: come over to the article talk page, and let's discuss your concerns in a friendly manner. I'm still willing--and I think I can speak for the other editors involved in this dispute as well--to consider your concerns and work together with you to find some middle-of-the-road solution to this dilemma. How 'bout it?? - Ecjmartin (talk) 22:58, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Just came from the article talk page. So much for that idea... I defer to WP's 'powers that be.' - Ecjmartin (talk) 23:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    To update thing. Despite and after this ANI was created, Missouri Executive Order 44 she changed the page twice (again) ([86] and [87]) without discussion.
    Then when Keepitreal2 was warn by an admin here for her behavior, she simply said "Thank you for the information as I did not kno who to turn to. These folks have a history of such behavior." Refusing to even acknowledge that the warning was directed to her, not me or Ecjmartin.
    However, and finally, she did finally comment on the talk page. Unfortunately, it was only to state that "I'm not sure why you guys think your Opinion matters.", "You are trying to rewrite history...", "Your arrogance is beyond unacceptable" and "Believe you me, this will be resolved".
    She is still in no way was willing to discuss the WP:POV and WP:Scope issues, or anything other then her getting her way. Her edits are clearly Wikipedia:Tendentious editing.
    It's clear that she has no intention of listen to any suggestions or warnings. She insisted that she is not going to stop, which is Wikipedia:Ownership of articles, what she accuses me of despite the fact that I have only reverted her edit. I haven't edited the pages since March 2011‎.
    While I defer to admins to do what should be done, I do feel that something, like a block, page or topic ban, need to happen, or this behavior is just going to continue and we will be right back hear in a few weeks. I would even be willing to not edit the page for 2 or 3 months, if she would be willing to do so also.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 16:09, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Lmao this is tiresome. It takes two or three or how many ever to hav an 'edit war' war is not an individual sport ejcmartin started it and is very much a part of it as are you. I hav never refused to adress anything... the only thing i have no intrest in is hashing and rehashing ridiculous circles a.la this ish. Some people havw lives. I am on a mobile and no where near my computer. At some point if you have anything original to ask/say perhaps we can make progress. Keepitreal2 (talk) 05:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Her comments are increasingly aggressive. I am hoping for some sort of admin intervention that might help cool the overall situation.

    This morning I said "This drama is the most exciting thing that's happened to me all week." While it's true that this has been "drama," that was not a constructive word choice and I regret it. It's true this has been exciting for me- in a bad way. It's the agitated sort of excited. BUT. I know that my intent with the word "excited" was probably not clear to her or any other reader and I should have communicated better. On the other hand, she recently said "This is so comical I don't even know where to start" to an editor who was calmly making well-reasoned points.

    I said a source she provided (the pertinent portion of which is written in the third person and does not present itself as a primary source) is the best source of the three we have for that subtopic. I said nothing negative and neither did anyone else. She then commented elsewhere on the talk page "yall [are] saying a mother's firsthand account of her experience with this order is questionable" (referring to us questioning the source she posted, which no one had done). She then said I'm "not in the right state of mind." Pot meet kettle?

    She repeatedly said she has more authority on this topic than peer-reviewed authors because four of her great-grandparents were prominent Mormons so she grew up with the stories. (Semi-prominent is generous in this case, but whatever.) She's been told that her family background doesn't change anything here on WP, but she insists it ought to. I think she must be aware that most peer-reviewed Mormon history articles are written by descendants of the early Mormons, but she wants to be the authority. She's also casually assumed that the other editors and I do not have Mormon ancestry. (For comparison, look what happened when someone used a male gender pronoun in a hypothetical that wasn't even about her specifically. Their "assumption" was highly offensive to her and she brought it up repeatedly.) From what I've seen, MOST editors of the Mormon history articles have Mormon ancestry. My "Mormon credentials" are stronger than hers, but I don't go around talking about my ancestors as though it means I should get my way.

    She's said that any ex-mormon editing pages on Mormonism must have an axe to grind and, basically, they should not be allowed on pages that no longer concern them. That comment was directed at one of the other two contributors to this article, and I felt it was extremely rude/insulting.

    Even her comments about how she should take a break and let an administrator handle things are worded aggressively. (And the break hasn't been taken.) Two recent examples: "Do you need a little time for it to dawn on you?" and "Now go ahead and remove your slanderous contributions as promised please and thank you." (I was unable to guess what contributions she meant nor did I see any discussion of removing something from the article, so I asked. She never replied).

    Today she posted a massive block quote of copyrighted material. The relevant portion is perhaps 1/5 of a page long at the very beginning. There was another question raised on the talk page which is answered in the middle of the quote, but that question was already determined to be outside the scope of the article by the time she posted. I think the publisher would be less than thrilled. An editor expressed concern but said he didn't want to offend her by changing anything, and she has completely ignored his comment.

    Her strong emotions against other editors extend through the whole range of Mormon topics, and I wonder how much further they extend than that. This isn't the place for emotional baggage to get aired out. This is an encyclopedia. Tripleahg (talk) 12:12, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Do you even hear yourself when you write this ish? Somebody questioned my credibility, I responded by divulging information about my background to defend ugly attacks against me. Am I allowed to breathe? I'm confused by this ish as I'm sure the admins can read timestamps and see that the last thing I said last night was I will let them handle it. Again, false accusations. At least that's easy to prove. On the other hand, your my ancestors are more prominent than hers is downright childish. Your definition of prominence must rely on post Missouri 44 and assassination of Joseph Smith when Brigham Young did his thing because saying Joseph Kinght and Isaac Morley were Semi-Prominent shows your lack of knowledge about church history and only goes to validate the position you say I have taken. Unless of course you don't consider material supporting the translation of the book of mormon important. Hell the plates were picked up in my grand fathers wagon. The only person more prominent in the church than Joseph Knight, Sr. was Joseph Smith and he is a cousin of mine so your point falls beyond flat. And if you want to take it in that silly direction... lets use Joseph Smiths words concerning my great grand father Joseph Knight, since they hold more weight than yours "[He] was among the number of the first to administer to my necessities. … For fifteen years he has been faithful and true, and even-handed and exemplary, and virtuous and kind, never deviating from the right hand or to the left. Behold, he is a righteous man, may God Almighty lengthen out the old man’s days; and may his trembling, tortured, and broken body be renewed, … and it shall be said of him, by the sons of Zion, while there is one of them remaining, that this man was a faithful man in Israel." But ya lets let you tell it... #smdh Anywho I don't have patience for your drama. As for the copyright claim, that book is not the only or even 1st published first hand account of hers. She owned her copyright as the writer and she has been dead over 100 years which means it's now public domain. Nice you know your copyright laws. This is why I loose patience with yall and might come across as sarcastic. Lastly, if I am adressing something somebody has said or responding to something somebody has asked me, making it about you doesn't infact mean it actually was about you. But since you mention your ancestors are prominent, shame on you for not standing up against the slanderous way this article was written stating nobody was known to have died as a result of this Order. Joseph Knight Sr. died as a result of it and I will not sit idly by while his and others suffering or deaths are discounted. If that constitutes emotional baggage, so be it. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keepitreal2 (talk • contribs) 15:47, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And btw yes her account was questioned by ejcmartin and even deemed as failing validation by artest4echo. Humorous is an accurate label. Cheers Keepitreal2 (talk) 16:01, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    The Weight of Chains [2]

    UrbanVillager (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Pincrete (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    bobrayner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    This is an ongoing POV war on the topic of Boris Malagurski and his films. The three editors above are absolutely incapable of working with each other without perpetuating a three-way revert war - see the histories and talk pages of Boris Malagurski, The Weight of Chains and The Weight of Chains 2 for examples of the disruption left in the wake of any meeting of these three. I foolishly attempted to moderate this in the past (see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive863#Topic ban for UrbanVillager) and administrator Ricky81682 has also been involved in the past, having blocked at least one of the users. At the latest asking the other parent deletion review thread, all three started in with sniping at each other ([88], [89]) and at other editors who participated ([90]), comments which I took the liberty of refactoring, however they insist ([91], [92]) that this petty back-and-forth must remain for the benefit of the discussion, or something. Their behaviour is clearly seen by other users as disruptive (e.g. [93]) and has become a net negative for users who wish to edit these articles and for the community in general. Therefore: I propose a three-way interaction ban between all three of these users, and further propose that all three be topic-banned from Malagurski-related topics. Ivanvector (talk) 18:54, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Wait, what? Over at the deletion review that UrbanVillager started, I had the temerity to suggest - briefly and civilly, with a diff - that UrbanVillager had canvassed supporters. You removed that comment. I suggested that removing evidence of canvassing would be unlikely to help the closer reach the best decision, then you removed that comment, and now you frame that as "petty back-and-forth"? We certainly have a lot of trouble with these topics, but I really don't think that is the best way forward.
    For what it's worth, I'd happily stop editing the topic right this moment if we could be assured that the problem went away. However, a topic ban would be a unilateral and hence ineffective sanction because, well, I'd comply but another sockpuppet would appear soon enough - there's a long history of promotional sockpuppetry here. Stopping previous sockpuppets stopped the problem temporarily. bobrayner (talk) 19:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Note, here also RealButter is canvassed[94], to which he replies here:[95] (though to date RealButter has taken no part in the deletion review, and in my dealings with him I have no reason to doubt his good faith). Pincrete (talk) 17:32, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Why exactly am I mentioned here? Why is a civil post from me drawing attention of ALL editors (inc. Ivanvector) to the 'discretionary sanctions' issue,(here, para 3):[96]). Why is this post removed by Ivanvector AT ALL. Where on the deletion review have I "sniped" and since I have not interacted there with either Bobrayner, UrbanVillager, nor anyone how can I have "back and forthed" (I DID address a single post to Ivanvector, but I think I did so in a civil and constructive manner, again para 3:[97]).
    Ivanvector, I invite you to reconsider whether you still feel I have said ANYTHING uncivil to ANYONE or done anything unconstructive in the interactions you cite above.
    I endorse most of what Bobrayner says above, specifically that a topic ban on he or I would solve nothing.Pincrete (talk) 21:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Of the three, I'm the only one who ever constructively edited Malagurski-related articles, the other two just dispute everything, remove sourced content and attempt to minimize everything that has to do with Malagurski and his work. Bobrayner is frequently canvassed by Pincrete, and the two work in sync to undermine every constructive edit to Malagurski-related articles. Look at the edit history of the articles, all they do is revert every attempt to make the articles neutral and remove anything positive or neutral added about Malagurski (while I've agreed to add negative reviews time and time again). They've already admitted that they despise Malagurski and his work - how can I edit constructively with people whose only goal in regards to those articles are to present Malagurski and his work in the worst possible way, when my goal is to make the articles more informative about the topic that sincerely interests me? I'd like to edit with neutral editors, but the topic area doesn't seem to attract such editors because Malagurski's work is controversial. Both Pincrete and Bobrayner have spent far more time arguing that I should be banned than making Malagurski-related articles better. So, if anyone should be topic banned, it's Pincrete and Bobrayner. If you're going to ban the one person who has expanded Malagurski-related articles to such an extent that these articles have more reliable sources than the majority of film-related articles, ban me as well. --UrbanVillager (talk) 21:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm just here to say I'm out. This topic falls under the Eastern Europe Arbcom heading (controversial as hell) and that hasn't been enforced so this is not too unexpected. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:28, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Shouldn't it be WP:ARBMAC by the way? The initial topic was Macedonia but the conclusions were defined for the whole Balkan region.- Anonimski (talk) 00:47, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You're correct. Also, I have not blocked any user. I screwed up on my request for a topic ban against UrbanVillager and have since then disengaged from the entire issue. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:26, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I've only observed the conflict between these users after finding The Weight of Chains 2 article, and I couldn't understand why the article needed to be deleted and baked into The Weight of Chains 1, after UrbanVillager had sourced it properly and with material that suggests notability. Anyway, what I've noticed is that Bobrayner has had a tendency to be overly dismissive in topics that relate to Serbia, broadly defined. For example, the unnecessary accusation at Talk:North Mitrovica (11 May 2014), and the way I've been approached at Talk:Goraždevac when I actually had done wikilinkage to a sourced article. I'm not sure if this dismissive attitude that I've encountered is limited to the Balkan region, look for example at the Stealing a Nation edit history and see the blanking there. As for UrbanVillager and Pincrete, I don't know if I can contribute with any info, I haven't had any significant interactions with them so I can't see if there's some sort of trend in their editing.

    As for discretionary sanctions, I think it's generally better to just send warnings and constructive criticism in the cases where it may apply here, than to ban for N days and think that everything will be fine afterwards. However, I have no experience with what admins commonly do in these disputes so I don't know what to propose. - Anonimski (talk) 01:12, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment, I think some clarification is in order, because everybody (inc. me perhaps) is getting 'deletes', 'redirects', and 're-instates' muddled. The current position is that there should be a redirect, Urbanvillager, was advised to seek a consensus for overturning that decision. Bobrayner and I have argued in favour of upholding the 're-direct' decision (not deleting). Our argument has been that notability has not been established sufficient to justify a second article and the little sourced info there is could adequately be merged with the main article. I remind Anonimski, that notability is established by independent RS having written about the subject, and at the moment the only sources regarding content/claims are interviews with the film maker. Interviews made (I believe) before the film was released. That the film has been seen by about 10 audiences worldwide (and is to be shown in Subotica & Belgrade shortly) is also RS, but none of these showings has so far resulted in articles or reviews. Pincrete (talk) 10:34, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Regardless of whether it's a deletion or a redirect, there's also the fact that there are a lot of notable people who appear in the film, as well as its status as a sequel to The Weight of Chains 1, which has notability. All this combined contributes to the notability status of The Weight of Chains 2. Furthermore, I searched around a bit, and though I haven't found any reviews yet, there are definitively articles about the second movie. Links: example 1, example 2. - Anonimski (talk) 13:32, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Anonimski, precisely, but when you're discussing this topic area with editors whose purpose is not to sincerely do what they can to make the articles better, it's hard to edit. Pincrete and Bobrayners only purpose in regards to Malagurski-related articles is to remove sourced content, minimize notability in any way and, if deletion and removal of content is not possible, present Malagurski and his work in the worst possible way. In my personal life, I've been able to work with people who disagree with me on almost everything, but only when our goal was the same - to do the job right. If this was the case here, I would have no troubles working with Pincrete and Bobrayner and we could work together on building consensus. However, considering they dispute everything and are not here to make the articles better, but to make Malagurski look bad and insignificant, I'm afraid I don't see any other resolutions to the issue other than a topic ban for Pincrete and Bobrayner for Malagurski-related articles. --UrbanVillager (talk) 14:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Anonimski, notability isn't established by either who is in the film, nor by the previous film, I think guidelines are fairly explicit on both those points. I don't dispute that the film has been shown in (now) about 10-12 screenings, which is all that the sources (inc. your new ones) confirm. Content is solely sourced to interviews with BM, which therefore need careful editing, since anyone with a product to sell is likely to promote it as much as possible. I don't want to extend the 're-instate/redirect' argument onto this page, you have expressed your opinion there and I have expressed mine. The re-instate backers seem to be the majority and that will probably happen. I just wish to make it clear that I, and others have been arguing from a valid stand-point, which is supported by guidelines (and on my part done civilly I hope).Pincrete (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    @Pincrete: My primary concern regarding your conduct is the revert warring wherever the three of you edit. From the policy, since I don't think you've read it: Edit warring is unconstructive and creates animosity between editors, making it harder to reach a consensus. The forumspamming between the three of you is a textbook example of what happens when editors simply undo each other repeatedly rather than attempting to have a constructive discussion. Of the last 50 edits (as of this edit) at The Weight of Chains 2 (which happen to be the 50 since UrbanVillager restored the article) 14 are obvious undo-button reverts: by bobrayner: [98] [99] [100] [101] by UrbanVillager: [102] [103] [104] [105] [106] [107] and by you: [108] [109] [110] [111]. You are all very careful to stay under WP:3RR but this behaviour is disruptive anyway, and it's not one of you instigating, it is all three of you put together. And yes, it's uncivil. I could propose WP:1RR or temporary full protection instead, but this just moves the problem onto the talk page, where you and UV post walls of text and WP:BLUDGEON any user who tries to insert a comment (e.g. [112] [113] [114] [115]), and bobrayner throws snide comments around like candy (e.g. [116] [117]), which seems to be his modus operandi in general. The only way forward for these articles is for all three of you to be removed. Ivanvector (talk) 16:50, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Suggestion I'm sorry Ivanvector, but your argument seems to be "I don't know who is to blame but at least one of the three MUST be, so let's ban everyone". Since any incoming uninvolved editor is likely to start to forget who the various parties are and who is accused of doing what, can I suggest sub-headings in which the behaviour and actions of each of us three are examined/commented upon. I make this suggestion because I don't see how I can defend myself in a 'group' action in which I am supposedly accountable for the actions of all three.
    I am happy to respond regarding my own actions in your list above, should you wish. In one case I misunderstood the situation and was wrong, in some cases I would defend my actions as conciliatory or otherwise constructive, some baffle me as to why they are there or who you think is at fault. Pincrete (talk) 00:28, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I thought I was pretty clear that it's the three of you who are at fault. Not any one of you, all three together. There would be no point in breaking this up into subsections. I wish to address POV warring and the edit warring for which all three of you are responsible. Other editors have tried to get involved (notably, RealButter, Shawn in Montreal, FkpCascais, Jsharpminor, Stifle, Ricky who has already commented above, Anonimski who has participated recently, myself, and a whole list of editors who got involved at the previous AN/I and who no longer edit in this topic area because of the nonsense) but it's just all three of you (not any one but all three) who revert-war, plaster talk pages with endless pointless arguments (much of it WP:GREENCHEESE) and drive other editors away from the topic. You've got a long way to go to convince me that any one of the three of you is solely responsible, or that any one of the three of you can behave when the others are around, thus the only solution is that all three of you should stay away from each other. Ivanvector (talk) 00:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ivanvector, is the goal here to find the best solution for Malagurski-related articles on Wikipedia or to just get rid of everyone editing them? Because if the articles' fate was left solely upon Pincrete's and Bobrayner's decision, the articles would either be deleted or made to present Malagurski as a demon. On the other hand, I've done nothing but expanded these articles, brought notable sources and helped make them more neutral. To the anti-Malagurski editor, any neutrality is perceived as promoting Malagurski and his work (which I've been accused of, even of being Malagurski himself), when all I've wanted was to edit the topic area which interests me most. If you ban me on Malagurski-related articles, it's an effective block on Wikipedia for me, because this is where I'd like to contribute (check my edit history) - I follow Malagurski's work closely and feel I can contribute most in that area. On the other hand, Pincrete and Bobrayner edit other articles as well and their banning would be a much less harsh punishment. I've asked many administrators to explain to me what exactly am I doing wrong, how I can improve my relations with other editors, none have helped me with any advice other than to "try to build consensus", and I've tried. Sure, I've lost my temper a few times, but in the end I'm the one who brings quality material to these articles. A prerequisite for collaboration and consensus is that other editors also want to make the articles better, not delete sourced content and minimize everything to make Malagurski look bad. Look at the edit history - do Pincrete and Bobrayner really, sincerely, care for Malagurski-related articles and want to make them better? Do I? Or do the two of them use every opportunity to dispute everything and vent their frustration with Malagurski and his work at anyone trying to help inform the Wikipedia audience about Malagurski and his work? In my opinion, the solution is not to "Kill them all, God will know His own" (Massacre at Béziers) but to distinguish who is doing good work and who is sabotaging the work. Again, don't take my word for it - if you have time, check the edit history of these articles, the answer is there. --UrbanVillager (talk) 10:47, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ivanvector, thankyou for naming those editors, I hope as many as possible will respond here and confirm or disagree as to whether I am ordinarily, 'uncivil', 'bludgeoning' or unconstructive. If a reasonable number confirm, I will voluntarily ban myself. I hope you don't object but I am adding Somedifferentstuff's name as he is the only editor to have been involved in the last 6 months, who has not already been named.Pincrete (talk) 11:18, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    With all due respect, I feel as if there is a bit of mud slinging going on in this thread... Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 15:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Alright, this is clearly going nowhere, Happy Attack Dog has a point, and keeping this open is doing nothing to improve the encyclopedia. Consider me to have inserted the standard rant about admins failing to act on discretionary sanctions, and then everyone can go back to standard editing behaviour. I'm not intending to reply in this thread any more and keeping AN/I on my watchlist is bad for my blood pressure, so please ping me if my attention is needed, or rant on my talk page. Ivanvector (talk) 21:19, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thankyou Ivanvector. If anything needs MY attention, would someone please ping me. Pincrete (talk) 17:13, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Unexplained Removal of sourced content and edit warring

    A user by the name of NikeCage68 is edit warring and removing sourced content on an article Weegeerunner (talk) 23:12, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • I've seen this come through AIV, and I'm going to give my two cents here. Firstly, Weegeerunner's assessment of the situation looks accurate; NikeCage68 has, frequently, removed content without giving an explanation. This user's major problem is the lack of edit summary usage; the amount of manually filled-out edit summaries in the last 500 edits or so is probably a dozen at most. However... no one has actually attempted to discuss this on a talk page, as far as I can see. Indeed, the talk page for that article hasn't even been created yet, and this should've been attempted before any ANI thread was opened. I personally think the article should be fully protected, and discussion moved to talk. Then again, I don't think the articles should exist at all, and that's why I AfDed them. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:27, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The edit warring continues, we need admin intervention. Weegeerunner (talk) 20:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Easiest solution: go to RFPP and request temporary full protection due to the edit war (unless an admin sees this and protects it for you). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:05, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. I am also feeling Nick is showing behavior that can be seen as ownership. Weegeerunner (talk) 21:35, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The articles have been protected by User:CambridgeBayWeather. This is unfortunate because they are at AfD. Nick has blanked messages on his talk page relating to this dispute. Having said that Nick has apologised at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of 2015–16 Aviva Premiership transfers First of all what I did with the deletion of several citations on those transfers pages without giving valid reasons. My reasons were just really stupid and naive. I really and sincerely apologise for that.

    Given this I think that there is hope that the pages can be unprotected to allow them to be worked on while the AfD is running its course.
    All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:59, 31 January 2015 (UTC).
    I saw the note on my talk page last night from User:Rich Farmbrough. Unfortunately I was on the mobile and couldn't make the changes. I've just unprotected the pair of them. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 22:48, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Continued personal attacks by User:Cassianto

    Nothing actionable here--at least not against Cassianto. Drmies (talk)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Today Cassianto has put more fuel on the fire by making yet another personal attack against User:OrangesRyellow: "It pains me to have to speak to you as I find you repulsive". Rationalobserver (talk) 16:07, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    FWIW, Cassianto has retired from Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 16:09, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    They "retired" several days ago, but that hasn't stopped them from continuing to personally attack people. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:14, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Sigh.... Could a passing admin close this please – or also take strong action against OrangesRyellow for editing the talk page comments of another user, which is what sparked this off. – SchroCat (talk) 16:32, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    :::(edit conflict) And perhaps against Rationalobserver for doing the same thing?[118] EChastain (talk) 16:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Close, please Could that passing admin remind the user starting the thread that this isn't the National Enquirer and that we're meant to be editing an encyclopedia here? We hope (talk) 16:37, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    All of Cassianto's PA's since retiring seem to be related to the original incident which was dying down (see closed threads above). In the name of Wikipedia:Don't feed the divas and also Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass, could someone please close this. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:39, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I'd wager that Cassianto will be back, so I don't see how slapping a retired tag on his page lets him make a few parting jabs that are obviously personal attacks without any fear of consequences, but I guess consensus trumps common sense here. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:44, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    :Common sense would indicate acts like this are disruptive. We hope (talk) 16:48, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Fucking lame, there is no personal attacks, the problem is the refactoring of another user's comment. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 16:47, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • This talk page edit is not acceptable--it's already not acceptable since WP:TPO does not allow it, and the attendant commentary by OrangesRyellow, that "fucking victim" means "victim of fucking" is too silly to warrant an explanation, though if one is needed Giano kindly provided one. In the meantime, another contributor has fled the coop; Rationalobserver, your continued baiting and bad-faith commentary will boomerang on you. And now I'm going to close this since I doubt that anyone is going to block someone with 12 FAs and 9 FLs for saying "I find you repulsive" to someone who was guilty of a terrible misreading that smacks, and not mildly, of false consciousness--either that, or it is evidence of complete incompetence. Drmies (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    "Retired"?

    If someone posts a "retired" banner on their user page and has clearly not retired, is there a rule being violated? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:10, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Not that I know of. See also this discussion for example. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:19, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The editor should change his banner from "retired" (which is clearly a falsehood) to "semi-retired" (which is undefinable, i.e. very flexible). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:30, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Nothing actionable here. The continuation of this matter is becoming increasingly disruptive. - SchroCat (talk) 20:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Cant this just die already?
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    Leave it to schrocat to stifle questions about his buddy's behavior once it gets too close to the truth. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:57, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    <sarcasm font>BB, now you're being disruptive, and quite frankly, addressing any more of SchroCat's comments will be viewed as harassment!</ end sarcasm font> Rationalobserver (talk) 17:02, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Luckily, he can both dish it out and take it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:06, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    How tedious and tiresome. - SchroCat (talk) 23:10, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    You and your little clique are definitely tedious and tiresome. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    And another PA. How predictable. - SchroCat (talk) 00:47, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    And another "I can attack you, but you can't stand up to me." How predictable. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:51, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It's noting of the sort: I have not attacked you. - SchroCat (talk) 09:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The problem is, this guy Cassiano and his buddy Schorcat and the other members of their little clique think they are better than the rest of us - that they can get away with any amount of incivility, any amount of vulgarity, because they are such "valued contributors". And when someone stands up to them, they cop this "How dare you?" attitude. So, can this particular incident die? Maybe. But next time someone stands up to them, watch what happens. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:09, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Bugs, I feel the same way you about the cliques do but I feel that this can be addressed on other venues, for this case the discussion has been had and people just want to move on from it onto other things. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:13, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Bingo. Close it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:15, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not part of any "clique" at all. I do not throw around incivility (when used its normally in relativisation, or because I am at the end of my tether with something or someone pushing a situation beyond what is reasonable). Your continual pushing of this situation each and everytime threads are closed is pointless. What do you think constructive is going to come out of this? That the admins are going to say "Oh, Bugs has started a new sub-thread on top of a closed one, and gone to a personal attack: maybe he has a point that we need to take on board"? Or do you nick that you are going to exhaust everyone's patience and their dwindling reservoirs of good faith? Enough is enough, just close this bloody thread and step away from the dead horse. - SchroCat (talk) 09:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Bugs, I love you like a brother, but this is enough already.

      I have a request for the clique of valued contributors, and for the clique of non-valued contributors (you, whoever you are, are a member of the first group, of course: go do something else. Paramaribo needs help, and so does Anton de Kom University of Suriname. For realsies: this thread is closed, and it will not be reopened. If anyone wishes to contest the validity of a "retired" template, do it on WP:Village pump or wherever, but do not do it as an extension of this thread. If anyone wishes to take issue with Cassianto as an editor, they can do so...where...in a stone-chiseled RfC/U, for all I care. Basta: closed with administrative authoritay. Drmies (talk) 13:33, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Walter Gorlitz edit war

    I am the principal editor on the article Kit Carson. User Walter Gorlitz repeatedly reverts material to his preference. I have asked him to take his concerns to the talk page for concensus. He ignores me. His archives reveal that he is in the habit of operating in this way. His reverts are inappropriate, expecially since the article was sent to GA noms a few days ago. Please help! SeeSpot Run (talk) 23:07, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Without commenting on the validity of your claims, edit-warring is dealt with at WP:AN3. DeCausa (talk) 23:09, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll comment at the talk page but you're both at 3RR and have been (equally) blindly reverting claiming consensus where no such consensus seems to have been established. Suggesting Gorlitz has ignored calls to take his concerns to the talk page is plainly contrary to the evidence which is that he started a talk page thread and you've participated in it. Bringing this here to highlight your own edit-warring is a bad idea. St★lwart111 23:36, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    SeeSpot Run seems to have created a new position: Principal Editor. I'm going to leave a message on his talkpage concerning ownership of articles and collaborative editing. Acroterion (talk) 01:15, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I also see he started up a WP:GAN on the article while there is on-going edit warring, and an active WP:RFC. Extremely poor judgement. SeeSpot Run, I think you need to slow down a bit and learn a bit more about how things are done here. You seem to be forcing things in rather incorrect ways. Sergecross73 msg me 21:13, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    As well, I noticed that SeeSpot Run has opened another GA review, even though the current one has not run its course! -- Orduin Discuss 21:32, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Harassment by ceiling fan vandal

    I am being constantly harassed by the ceiling fan vandal. At the moment, his modus operandi seems to be to vandalize a specific article on Wikia [119], then to pester me about it on my talk page. The user has also created two impersonating accounts: [120] and [121] (of User:GB fan and User:Ian.thomson, respectively); I have informed Wikia about the state of affairs, but nothing has been done so far. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 06:29, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Email abuse@att.net , listing the IP addresses and what times they were active, and point out that he's stalking, impersonating, and harassing you, as well as disrupting Wikipedia services. I've written a form letter documenting his actions that's easily, with the intention of sending it every time he harasses me. It explicitly points out how he's violating AT&T's terms of use, if not the law. Could we get someone from the WMF to contact AT&T? Ian.thomson (talk) 06:45, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Just emailed AT&T. Every day I see him active, I will keep sending an increasingly longer form letter. And I repeat this because this is an important question: can we get someone from the WMF to contact AT&T? Ian.thomson (talk) 06:55, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm wondering if the WMF legal department isn't taking a lengthy vacation. Drmies (talk) 18:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • The WMF legal department, AFAAIA, has never managed to get an ISP to take action against any of their customers, even where such action is clearly illegal (i.e. Jarlaxle Artemis). I conclude from this that such action is very difficult or the WMF's legal department is incompetent (I know which I'd go for). Black Kite (talk) 19:48, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm more apt to side with the former. ISPs are very reluctant to disconnect paying customers. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 20:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Mike blocked his talk page to avoid further harrasment from the IP and as soon as he unblocks his talk page the IP is at it again, I'd suggest blocking the IP now but he seems to have stopped since yesterday--Lerdthenerd wiki defender 18:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • In the last thread where Beals was community-banned, a note was left asking to report any further disruption to m:SRG and #wikimedia-stewards. Should do those also.
    In response to AT&T's failure to act on its users breaking their own Terms of Service and causing problems here, a radical idea would be to rangeblock their entire IP range in Beals' area, with a note here that informs affected users of the situation and advising them to email abuse@att.net to encourage a resolution. Leave the block in place until such time as AT&T provides assurances that they are dealing with this. It's absolutely ridiculous, but I would support it. Ivanvector (talk) 21:13, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I second the range block if the stewards can't do anything. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:17, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Block all editors on an ISP to encourage the ISP to enforce their terms of service? Go a step further - block all READERS as well - like was done to protest SOPA. Similar to what TV providers do when channels are "blacked out" - redirect them to programming that tells them that it's their ISP (or in this case the channel's) fault.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.13.25 (talk • contribs)
    You're the one suggesting that we block all editors on an ISP. The suggestion was a range block "in Beals' area," We're capable of selective blocks that only target specific cities, or even portions of cities. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Back in the day, we used to call this the Usenet Death Penalty. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:51, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Possible compromised account?

    Jaywubba1887 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been engaged in some very dubious editing over the last few days, basically blanking or deleting sections of an apparently random selection of articles using a mobile device with the edit summary of "Fixed grammar" each time. Another editor has raised the concern that the account has been compromised. Could someone please take a look at this? I'd recommend a preventative block until the account owner has explained what is going on. Prioryman (talk) 07:46, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    To editor Prioryman: Please notify users you bring up here; this is required. To do so, use {{subst:ANI-notice}} or {{subst:ANI-notice|thread=[Heading]}} on their talk pages. I have notified Jaywubba1887 in this case for you. Anon124 (+2) (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 17:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • It looks like a blanking happens whenever they're editing a large section, same deal with the article blankings. I don't think this account is compromised, rather they might have an unstable data connection/phone running out of memory or something. — east718 | talk | 18:46, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Off wiki non-constructive editing related to the English Wikipedia

    User:IvanOS has accused me on the Croatian Wikipedia that I have a sockpuppet here, which is not true without initiating checkuser request here. To "prove" their point they added following diffs: 1, 2 adding that the users who made the edits are the same person (me). They used those edits as the "evidence" that I have insulted the entire Croatian nation (!). What is less relevant, but worth mentioning is that surprisingly their reasoning was accepted by an admin there leading to my indef block there. VS6507 (talk) 11:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi VS6507, thanks for raising this but I'm not clear what action you'd like taken - the en-wiki admins don't have any control over actions taken on the Croatian Wikipedia, and your account is not blocked and has not been accused of sockpuppetry here. -- Euryalus (talk) 11:58, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Be glad you didn't get a warning for restoring the vandalism of the other account.[122] For those unfamiliar with Ustaše, this is like opening Germans with "also known as nazis". I will be kind and assume good faith: Maybe you thought the IP had only reverted your own edit and that reverting the IP would only restore your own edit. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:40, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, PrimeHunter, I apologise because I didn't notice that bit about "also known as ustashi".
    I let admins to decide what action needs to be taken as he speculated off wiki about sockpuppetry here instead of reporting it. I give my consent for a checkuser check if someone thinks that that account might be associated with me. Valid checkuser analysis would also be useful to prove hr wiki admins that IvanOS didn't tell the truth and that my account here is clean when it comes to sockpuppetry and other negative behaviours as well. VS6507 (talk) 14:30, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    VS6507 has had some problems with meatpuppetry (across different wikis) in the past - some editors here may recognise his previous accountname - so, if IvanOS suspects sockpuppetry, we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand. @IvanOS:, is there any more evidence? bobrayner (talk) 14:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    @Bobrayner: No, it isn't. --IvanOS 15:16, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Malik-Shah I

    Qara xan [123] keeps removing sourced information! it is really getting annoying now and i am surprised that no one have seen it yet. In the Malik-Shah I article, he keeps removing the Seljuq statesman Nizam al-Mulk out of mention during the campaign of the Seljuq ruler Alp Arslan in Caucasus in 1064, when the source I added clearly says that he took part in the campaign;

    Alp Arslān was quick to resume his military activity. In Rabīʿ I, 456/February-March, 1064, he undertook a campaign in the northwest which resulted in significant gains at the expense of Byzantine Armenia; Neẓām-al-molk and the sultan’s son, Malekšāh, operated separately during part of the campaign, each taking a string of fortresses. They rejoined the sultan to take Sepīd Šahr and Ānī.

    And when Qara xan runs out of words, he suddenly keeps accusing me of being uncivil (or ignores me and continues his reverting). I seriously don't know what to do anymore. I have created over 320 articles and expanded even many more, and tried to expand the Malik-Shah I article too, but sadly he is stopping my progress. By the way, I have notified him about this. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    At best this is a content dispute as it doesnt appear to be vandalism. No eidts have been carried out in the alst week so this also is quite stale. Best option would be to take it to the talk page to discuss or seek dispute resolution. Amortias (T)(C) 18:24, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi, Amortias. That user HistoryofIran is a liar. Just take a look on Talk:Malik-Shah I. --Qara khan 19:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Take it to the talk page? I have already done that, and as i said, when Qara xan runs out of words, he suddenly keeps accusing me of being uncivil, or ignores me and continues his reverting. So I don't think that would work. A admin told me this would be the best place to fix this problem. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:05, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    @HistoryofIran: Actually, a lot of your comments can be taken as uncivil. For example:

    if you randomly accuse me of vandalism (you probably don't even know its meaning)
    — User:HistoryofIran

    Take a look on Al-Mu'tadid FOR EXAMPLE (writing it with caps lock so you actually read the word properly).
    — User:HistoryofIran

    Or maybe because you speak a very broken and confusing form of English.
    — User:HistoryofIran

    I don't know the Wikipedia rules well? that is coming from you? don't make me laugh.
    — User:HistoryofIran

    didn't i already tell you that i had to convert it? is your English that bad? if so, then please leave the English Wikipedia, because you are making it hard for everyone here when you simply revert stuff and then don't understand a word of what others say.
    — User:HistoryofIran

    • I've bolded all the statements I consider offensive, and this is only from one of your discussions.... -- Orduin Discuss 20:49, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm sorry, but how is it uncivil when I tell him his English makes it harder for himself and me to fix the problem? seriously, you should read some of the stuff he writes and how he responds. About the caps lock thing, there are actually many times where he doesn't really want to properly read what I write (which can be quite irritating when I am trying to solve a dispute and he does such things like that, like he didn't even care). Yes, he don't know the meaning of the word "vandalism", or else he wouldn't randomly accuse of me being one in order to avoid discussing with me. About the Wikipedia rules, there are actually many cases where he breaks the rules, yet tells me and other users to learn about them, which is quite irritating and I am not the only person he has done that to. I think the problem is that the way I write can be easily misunderstood. Of course, I never mean to be rude or something like that. If it is really that easily misunderstood-able, I will write in a different way. But even if wrote in a different way I would probably still randomly accused of being uncivil, as it is not the first time Qara xan have done that and I am not the only one he has done that to (here is a example [124]). Anyway, now with that problem hopefully fixed, can we get back to the main subject? --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    User_talk:Secret

    OP blocked their legal counsel blocked. Amortias (T)(C) 00:58, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Hi I'm Secret and I'd like you to please courtsey blank my talkpage. SecretIzBack (talk) 20:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi Secret. If that really is you! we have no way of knowing. Your best course of action is to please contact by email someone to whom you are already known. I suggest User:Guerillero, as they are the admin who protected the page from editing. -- Diannaa (talk) 20:31, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Per CU evidence, this isn't Secret, thus, I have blocked the account. --Guerillero | My Talk 21:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ed Hubbard The Sniper has attempted to refactor this section has made what could be considerd a chilling effect and has made (then retracted) a threat to kill here[125] a swift block would be appreciated. Amortias (T)(C) 23:41, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. -- Diannaa (talk) 23:48, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Off topic, but Amortias, I don't think WP:CHILL points where you wanted it to point. Just a heads up... ansh666 00:19, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, no it did not. But it does now. Amortias (T)(C) 00:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Qewr4231

    For two years, Qewr4231 has been either adding content at International Christian Church designating the church as a cult,[126] and its former leader Kip McKean as a cult leader, or has repeatedly shown up on various talk pages to comment about this topic. User tends to come by, drop a bunch of drama on the talk page, then disappear for two or more months. Most recently the user came by to drop a bunch of links on an article's talk page in a discussion that has been inactive for 2 months. Certain Wikipedia policies and guidelines have been explained to this user several times over the years, including WP:FRINGE, WP:NPOV, our reliable source guidelines etc., but user is reticent to accept any of that or simply cannot process it. User also engages in soapboxing on talk pages, for example here (which also includes a nonsensical personal attack), here and here, which is unrelated to Kip McKean, but still completely egregious. In April 2014 I had to redact copy/pasted (i.e. copyrighted) content the user added to a talk page, which resulted in an exchange that demonstrates confusion on the part of the user, and which also highlights the fact that he has previously been asked to stop soapboxing on talk pages. He has so far accused 3 editors of being pro-Kip McKean, including myself, TheRedPenOfDoom and JamieBrown2011. Since the user keeps disappearing, I don't see any efficient way to help him understand Wikipedia policies and guidelines, but his actions are now disruptive. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:19, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Blocked with reminder that recidivism will result in increased sanctions. Nyttend (talk) 02:57, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Chaheel Riens (that's me) and Ghmyrtle being accused of both being the same user - sockpuppets.

    There was a bit of an editing brouhaha over at Casual (subculture), and an IP editor seems to have now registered under the name of Richie bedfellows.

    During the exchange he has accused GhMyrtle and myself of being the same editor twice in different edits.[127][128]

    I objected to this each time and gave him the chance to redact - his response is here[129], however, he invites me to not "be waiting around for the weekend to finish, my friend" - so I'm not. Both involved editors informed.[130][131] Chaheel Riens (talk) 21:07, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    @Richie bedfellows: I have plenty of legitimate reasons for suspicion. Please do share these reasons, as accusations of sockpuppetry are serious, and not showing any kind of support behind them is concidered harassment, and can get you blocked. Don't be quick to assume that someone is a sockpuppet. Please take care. -- Orduin Discuss 22:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    He's posted provocatively on my talk page again, exactly one minute after doing so on his own page - inviting @Orduin: to message him, whereupon he will reveal his suspicions. I've replied, asking him to post here instead. His reply seems to suggest that he thinks Orduin is watching his talkpage (which may be the case - but also may not). Chaheel Riens (talk) 09:44, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Looking deeper, it seems that Richie and the IP editor are not the same - Richie was just duplicating the errors made by said IP editor, so I've struck that particular comment. Chaheel Riens (talk) 10:29, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    70.190.111.213: repeatedly reverting biased, inaccurate edits on current events portal; refusing constructive dialogue (unarchived)

    Good day all,

    (this is an unarchiving of an unresolved incident)

    First, I apologize in advance for any breaches of protocol I may myself have unknowingly committed, as I am a new user.

    User 70.190.111.213 has, at least ten times, insisted on biased and to varying degrees inaccurate renderings of headlines on the Jan. 21 mass-stabbing in Tel Aviv. He has reverted edits by myself (Slvofjstce, previously 70.114.220.115, 72.182.49.254, and 128.62.31.0), FourViolas, 2605:e000:aa0c:f200:443a:c372:b7d9:a32e, 174.88.203.17, and Snowball359:

    [132] [133] [134] [135] [136] [137] [138] [139] [140] [141]

    His current version reads:

    • A Palestinian man from the West Bank, Hamza Muhammad Hassan Matrouk, illegally crosses into Israel for the express purpose to stab (sic) people attacking over a dozen Israelis on a bus in central Tel Aviv. Security forces capture the assailant as he continued to indiscriminately stab people in the street. (The New York Times)

    As I've pointed out in my edits, and on his talk page, his headline is overly long, openly biased, and contains two pieces of information either not present in, or contradicted by, the article he provides. My suggested version reads:

    Once I had familiarized myself with Wikipedia's editing protocols, I decided to reach out to 70.190.111.213 to hopefully end the annoying cycle of reversion (see: User talk:70.190.111.213, January 2015 [the first]). I apologized for the preceding back-and-forth, and explained my concerns with his edits, as well as the rationale behind the changes I had suggested. I requested we engage in productive dialogue before any further edits be made; to that end, I agreed not to change his headline for over eight hours, in that hope that we could open dialogue before then. I received no response during those eight hours, then went ahead and made the edit I had previously suggested. Three minutes later, he reverted the edit. He has since done so two more times, once for FourViolas and once for me. He has not responded to my request for dialogue, but has referred to me as a "sockpuppect (sic) created just 4 days ago for block evasion."

    Especially given that 70.190.111.213 does seem to be a fairly prolific and generally productive contributer to the current events portal, I'm not quite sure what action I would suggest be taken. But I do feel that he is acting unfairly and unreasonably, and I hope we can finally bring this matter to a just conclusion.

    I apologize again for any inadvertent breaches of protocol, and thank you for your attention. Slvofjstce (talk) 06:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    elegent speech too bad this guy is a sockpuppet for a banned account and he just keeps changing his ip and registering new accounts to do whatever he pleases. This current account is just 3 days old (Slvofjstce) yet he already knows to come to this area to try and contrive a scam to an admin.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:11, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    he attempts to contrive an arguement that he has consensus by naming various account all of which are just today's new sockpuppet anon ip or account such as (70.114.220.115) a single edit was made under this ip to the what do you know the item above and absolutely nothing else.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:17, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    another such as (72.182.49.254) a single edit was made under this ip to the what do you know the item above and absolutely nothing else.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    such as (128.62.31.0) a single edit was made under this ip to the what do you know the item above and absolutely nothing else.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:22, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    such as (2605:E000:AA0C:F200:443A:C372:B7D9:A32E) a three edits were made under this ip to the what do you know the item above and absolutely nothing else.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:26, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    such as (174.88.203.17) a double edit was made under this ip to the what do you know the item above and absolutely nothing else.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    As for the "wording" of the above edit to the daily events section - the exact item can be viewed at the citation given and although paraphrased (which is exactly what we are required to do) is what the any and all citations on the internet say that i could find according to google - that "A Palestinian man from the West Bank, Hamza Muhammad Hassan Matrouk, illegally crossed into Israel for the express purpose to stabbing people attacking up to a dozen Israelis on a bus in central Tel Aviv. Security forces capture the assailant as he continued to indiscriminately stab people in the street" and that HE ADMITTED TO EXACTLY THAT UPON QUESTIONING BY AUTHORITIES--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:39, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll depose that I'm not a sockpuppet, and that I reverted 70.190.111.213 for what appeared to me to be WP:NPOV problems. Wikipedia should strive to be dispassionate, even in extreme cases.
    I propose a temporary WP:Block of the IP for edit warring and refusal to engage in dialogue, and an admonishment to all involved editors to be aware of WP's Arab-Israeli sanctions, particularly the 1RR. I think User:Slvofjstce does not need to be blocked, because they have shown themself willing to make repeated good-faith efforts to resolve the content dispute. FourViolas (talk) 14:50, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    almost certain that this is just another sock of the above person - how do i know this? - this person also says they just started at wiki (the acct was created just 3 months ago) and yet they are now giving advice to admins??? Further they dont address the issue of the rotating anon ip adove as if they are a magician - "watch this hand please" - no the endelsssly rotation of anon ips is irrelevant - yeah right?!--70.190.111.213 (talk) 15:02, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    further i see no possible way they could have known that this discussion existed and yet they are now following it--70.190.111.213 (talk) 15:05, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    further i have just looked through all 1000 of this supposed new persons edits since the three months ago creation and yet HERE IS THE BEST ONE YET they have EXACTLY ZERO edits to the daily events page (except the one edit they made there in support of the sock above) and yet suddenly they are an expert about what belongs there to such a degree that they, again i say, are ready to give advice to admins about blocks!--70.190.111.213 (talk) 15:28, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If you believe you have credible evidence of WP:SOCKpuppetry, please open a discussion at WP:SPI. (Note that Slvtojstce already claimed most of the IPs you mention above.) On this page, please WP:KEEPCOOL and respond to Slvtojstce's specifically enumerated concerns about your edit warring and refusal to discuss the problem. Your contribs demonstrate good faith, but edit warring is simply not a good way to generate consensus. FourViolas (talk) 17:55, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Greetings, all. By Wikipedian protocol, would I be unreasonable to make my (repeatedly) proposed edits now? I don't want to unduly pour gasoline onto a fire, but I also strongly believe the current headline to be unacceptable to Wikipedia's standards. I hope we can move forward (whatever form that takes) by 13:00 GMT. Peace. Slvofjstce (talk) 02:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I appreciate your discomfort with the present version, but I think it would be better to wait either until 70.190.111.213 agrees to discuss or until they are blocked for refusing to do so. WP:There is no deadline, especially because very few people look at "current events" more than a few days old. This noticeboard is for the resolution of WP:User conduct problems, not content disputes, and in this case it doesn't look like we can reach content consensus until we resolve 70.190.111.213's reverting-without-discussion behavior. FourViolas (talk) 05:32, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Request for admin action: 70.190.111.213 has been active recently, but has chosen not to add anything to this discussion since their spurious WP:Socking allegations (a characteristic attempt to deflect criticism: [142] [143] [144]). This has gone on long enough, and if 70.190.111.213 doesn't want to offer apologies or assurances that they will stop edit warring, or attacking other editors, they should be prevented from doing so. FourViolas (talk) 18:58, 26 January 2015 (UTC) I've never been involved in an AN/I discussion, and looking around I realize incidents usually take a while to resolve. Sorry to sound pushy. FourViolas (talk) 02:16, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Request for admin action: In the 90+ hours that have passed since FourViolas and I last requested 70.190.111.213 engage us in good faith regarding his Jan. 21 Tel Aviv stabbing attack headlines, he's found time for dozens if not hundreds of edits, but has neither opted for a more neutral/accurate reading, nor given us a word in response. I have no reason to believe that, if I make my proposed and moderate changes, he won't continue to edit war and make baseless, offensive claims of sockpuppetry. I'm new here, someone please help this move forward productively. Slvofjstce (talk) 21:34, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Clinicallytested and Electronic harassment

    Nothing more to do for now: Clinicallytested is heading for an indefblock if they continue with this. -- The Anome (talk) 14:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I'm not certain if this is an ANI issue or a RFC/U issue ...

    Edits by Clinicallytested (talk · contribs) on the article Electronic harassment (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) appear to go against community consensus at talk:Electronic harassment#Incidents. The user has dismissed this consensus simply stating: "it doesn't look like there's any thoughtful consensus". Since the time I started writing this ANI post in another tab, they have also begun edit-warring over the material (now warned on their talk page).

    This same user had previously edit warred over comparable material in their now deleted article at Targeted Individual (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views).

    It appears that their sole purpose on Wikipedia is to soapbox over this issue, trying to shoe-horn the data in where it's at best only tangentially related. While I'm all for assuming good-faith, it's being stretched to the limits for me, so would appreciate others looking over the behavior. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Note, the user is now blocked for edit warring after commenting on their talk page: ""There's no point in discussing with a wikipedia disgusting troll". --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I've also semi-protected the page for a similar length of time. Any more misbehavior from them, and an indefblock is on the cards. -- The Anome (talk) 22:36, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Off-wiki attack page created about a Wikipedia editor

    Nothing that can be done here. Amortias (T)(C) 00:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    While lurking on an administrator's talk page, I ran into this post about what was apparently an attack page against User:Johnpacklambert. The page is already deleted (see here). However, if the rationalwiki user ([145]) who posted this is also a Wikipedia, then we have a serious problem. I'm not sure what action, if any, needs to be taken here. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 23:51, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    It's off-wiki, so there's nothing that can be done. ansh666 00:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Celia Berrell

    Could an admin look at this. It's being swarmed by obvious single purpose editors, possible socks as they are all signing off in the same unusual style. Thanks LibStar (talk) 10:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I've opened Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Janine Thompson, based on the contributions at the AfD and the article. ansh666 11:41, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Quack

    Done, by various people. Euryalus (talk) 22:06, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Hi,

    Can we get an extension of the block on PabloOsvaldo17 for evasion through use of IP address. 78.146.12.217. The quacking does seem quite pronounced. Amortias (T)(C) 13:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

     Done Bish got it done, -- Diannaa (talk) 19:25, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not that it matters, but for the sake of accuracy, Diannaa I got it done, while Bish blocked the IP address. (Note that Amortias's request was for an extension of the block on the account, not for an IP block.) The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 20:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    How about a chocolates for all involved approach to make sure everyones appropriatley complimented? Amortias (T)(C) 21:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Tom Ruen warring with gross incivility

    Tomruen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) started warring at Star polygon and generally throwing etiquette to the wall:

    Tom has, among other things:

    I dropped a warning on his talk page but he brushed it off: both here.

    He is a highly experienced editor with a ten-year userbox on his user page, but nevertheless in his discussions he is professing ignorance of so much etiquette that it beggars belief. His justification for warring was that he didn't even know what BRD was. But having had it pointed out, that has not stopped him. He has very profuse output and it is hard to floow his edits or it would be easier to let this pass, but we are bumping into each other a lot and things can't go on like this.

    I was going to request a short topic ban to bring him back to reality. But then he accused me of lying so I'd like to Request a short editing block for his gross incivility. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:13, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I will try to be available for questions over my behavior. Tom Ruen (talk) 17:10, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    On the last charge, I consider repeating false information as lying given I already counterered on talk, but I offered confusion as my explanation for Steelpillow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s rude accusation.
    1. I added 30 unique images [146].
    2. Steelpillow reverted, cutting to 0 [147].
    3. I restored, compromised, added back 13. [148]
    4. Steelpillow reverted, cutting to 0 [149].
    5. I restored, and attempted to merge better with text, split into two tables for convex and star polygons, and ended with 18 [150].
    6. Another editor, Double sharp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) tried a compromise for SteelPillow, recombined the tables down to 12[151] and then tried 8 [152].
    7. I added 4 NEW image upon request by DoubleSharp [153], and explained on talk [154] and [155] and offered my opinion that 8 is to small.
    8. Double sharp attempted a compromise, reduced 12 to 8 again, removing 2 old images, and leaving 2 new images from the set he requested. [156]
    So when Steelpillow FALSELY claims "a third editor cut the gallery down drastically and Tom has since added images back in again without discussion." it is reasonable to call that accusation as lying by confusion. Tom Ruen (talk) 17:10, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Tom's reply is the one that is confused. After DoubleSharp cut the list to 8 but suggested two more, I suggested that one would be enough [157]. Tom saw fit to ignore the conversation at this point and add several more. We know that was without consensus because DoubleSharp reduced them again. There is neither confusion nor lie in the account I give above. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:25, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    We're in agreement. 4>2 and 4>1, and my enthusiastic 4 images were delicately remerged with the selection of other 8, all without the aid of my inability to choose. So we can both be grateful for DoubleSharp's expert pruning skills. Tom Ruen (talk) 22:47, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    This is simply a content dispute, and the OP's accusations -- such as "Modified a comment of mine" -- which was actually just sticking a helpful section tag in a wikilink, do not hold up to scrutiny. WP:BRD is not a policy which which to beat other editors, and, as noted, Tomruen has not been blindly reverting but rather offering compromise number of images. On the other hand, "lying by confusion" isn't justified -- "inaccurate" is probably a better description. I encourage Tomruen and Steelpillow to dial it down a notch and note / appreciate DoubleSharp's good work in working towards a compromise, and any other editor who wishes to help reach consensus to participate in the talk page discussion. NE Ent 17:52, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    An up-front accusation that I am lying, repeated here for luck, cannot be dismissed as a mere content dispute. It is a flagrant breach of WP:CIVIL. Nor is my account as inaccurate as Tom would have you believe - see my reply above. "Modified a comment of mine" - I am glad that you agree with my own assessment that it was in itself "no big deal", but why hold that against me? Did you not read on? Meanwhile, I have thanked DoubleSharp once or twice already, how many more times are needed? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:25, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Tom Ruen may be a long-term editor who has contributed a lot of very nice images and a lot of content to the project, and has a lot of expertise to share, but it's also the case that a lot of his long-term editing (mostly on articles related to polyhedra) is problematic: throwing huge vaguely-related image galleries on them that dwarf the rest of the article (see WP:NOTGALLERY and WP:BALANCE), using nonstandard nomenclature, adding content that appears to be original research, not giving any inline sources for the content he adds, and then tacking on "references" sections that are copied-and-pasted verbatim across hundreds of articles, and that list whole books without page numbers that, on closer examination, do not include any content on the specific subjects of the articles they are supposed to be references for. It has caused many of our polyhedron-related articles to be problematic. I don't know that this specific content dispute is worth the attention of ANI, and I don't want to push him away from the project, but I do wish he'd get more serious about only adding content that is fully on-topic and can be properly sourced. After having gotten into discussions with him on this issue before that ended up generating more heat than light I don't know what the best way to get some change is. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:34, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    After many years walking round the edges I recently decided to try standing up to him. He is not used to this and has had trouble dealing with it. So here we are at ANI. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:01, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support a block because the allegation of lying, first, violates the principle of assume good faith, and, second, violates the principle of no personal attacks. It is true that this is primarily a content dispute, but it is a content dispute compounded by the conduct issue of the accusation of lying. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:53, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      Robert, please tell me what you need from me. I have no personal conflict against Steelpillow, only the false facts he was repeating. Tom Ruen (talk) 22:06, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Hotter than July

    Can one of you please protect the above page that I'm reporting as a banned member called MariaJaydHicky is at it again but this time under the alais of R&BSoulHipHop and is vandalising the page; sorry it's all jumbled up; currently in Sainsbury's and Homebase returning some stuff whilst using my phone. Many thanks Sainsburysshopper (talk) 17:41, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I've semiprotected, and blocked both accounts and the underlying ip. I suppose a review by someone more familiar with the puppeteer might be in order. —Cryptic 18:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not clear why you blocked the reporting party (Sainsburysshopper). -- Diannaa (talk) 19:26, 31 January 2015 (UTC)q[reply]
    Because it was that account's edit to the article that most closely matched the puppeteer's MO. —Cryptic 19:30, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it looks to me like they reverted the sockpuppet's edit. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    ...to the sockpuppet's prior edit. 82.132.228.209 changes the genre; R&BSoulHipHop registers immediately before changes it some more; Sainsburyshopper registers immediately before reverting to the ip's edit, making his userpage a bluelink, and reporting here. Same sort of tactic as this edit. That said, if you're confident I erred and want to unblock, I won't oppose that. —Cryptic — Preceding undated comment added 19:43, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, you are right – now I understand. Thanks for taking the time to explain. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:50, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Another Bowei Huang 2 incarnation?

    There is a high probability that Xyconat (talk · contribs) is yet another incarnation of the banned user Bowei Huang 2 (talk · contribs). It may be too old for a checkuser to verify, but the same provocative political nonsense is being posted. Someone can indef Xyconat at their leisure, once I notify the user. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:35, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

     Done The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 20:47, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    User:‎174.141.182.82 invalid RfC closure

    Will someone please explain to ‎174.141.182.82 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) that he is not entitled to close an RfC in which he has been a busy participant? I have now reverted his closure twice. He cites that there is "clear consensus", which I disagree with; opinions are very divided instead. I ask an uninvolved editor or admin close the discussion instead. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 20:48, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I have posted to the IP talk page confirming that, as an involved editor, he or she may not close the discussion, and that doing so again may lead to a block. I'm afraid I don't have time to make the detailed study of the rather long discussion that would be needed to close it. I hope someone with more time will do so. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 21:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I was the one who started the RFC, it’s run longer than a month, there has been no relevant activity for a week, and there doesn’t seem to be any question about the outcome. I asked User:Edokter to post to WP:AN if he wanted to contest this per WP:CLOSECHALLENGE, rather than repeatedly reverting me; he refused (see User talk:Edokter#Your reverts). Also, he violated WP:3RR: [158] [159] [160]. Could someone explain to him that that isn’t proper behavior? —174.141.182.82 (talk) 21:10, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    1. You may not close a discussion in which you have been actively involved. It is totally unnecessary to invoke WP:CLOSECHALLENGE here, as the close should never have been done in the first case. It would not be at all helpful to start requiring editors to start up the cumbersome process of a discussion at an administrative noticeboard for trivial issues which can be dealt with by a simple revert of and edit which was out of process and should never have been made.
    2. Despite that, Edokter has done what you asked, namely started as discussion here about it, and you have received an answer.
    3. To say "there doesn’t seem to be any question about the outcome" makes no sense, because Edokter has questioned it. Even if you sincerely thought at the time when you first closed it that there would be no question, as soon as your closure was reverted you knew better.
    4. Linking to three reverts cannot demonstrate breaking of the so called "3 revert rule", as that rule refers to making more than three reverts within a 24-hour period. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 21:28, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I misremembered 3RR; my apologies. But to your first and third points, WP:RFC says that participants may close a discussion, and both it and WP:CLOSE advise rather strongly against formal closure if the outcome is obvious. All indications were that the reverts were based on a belief that this was never ever ever allowed and that RFCs absolutely must run for 30 days, not on whether the outcome was in question. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 21:45, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There has also been discussion that the closure of RFCs, or of anything else requiring closure, by IP editors is discouraged because IP addresses sometimes change, making communication about closure review difficult or impossible. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:26, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Does Wikipedia offer medical advice now?

    Per Wikipedia:Medical disclaimer, Wikipedia does not give out medical advice please in the future hat the discussions and ask the person involved to seek a doctor if they have medical questions. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:49, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    At Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous, Alanagribble made a clear request for medical advice. I removed it, and left a note on their user page welcoming them but explaining that we do not give medical advice (even explaining why it's a bad idea to take medical advice from us).

    Baseball Bugs then restored the section to explain the Alanagribble's condition to him. I removed it again, once again pointing out that we don't offer medical advice, to which Bugs replied by:

    WNT restored the section. I was prepared to just drop it, even before the section was removed again independently by Medeis -- but since then StuRat and Aspro have responded to the initial clear request for medical advice, both discussing possible treatments, Aspro even recommending medications.

    Yes, the advice in many cases included "ask a medical professional" (which fits in "Wikipedia does not give medical advice") but often consisted of more than that. Is Wikipedia:Medical disclaimer one of the humor pages now or something? Can I pretend to be Dr. Nick as often as I want, now? Ian.thomson (talk) 21:02, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Usually, questions about whether something constitutes medical advice are handled on the ref desk talk page. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:08, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This has gone beyond the ref desk, though. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:11, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Had you brought this to the ref desk talk page, it wouldn't have. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:17, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There's a page that specifically addresses this: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines/Medical advice. In short, no, medical advice is not allowed, even on the ref desk. However, it also states that outright removal of the question is also discouraged. ansh666 21:13, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Advising someone to see a doctor is not medical advice. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:17, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • This has been discussed ad nauseam, we've been given opinions at the Ref Desk talk page that (1) such material should simply be removed without comment and (2) that the existence of our disclaimer means that whatever happens in the future, our actually giving medical advice cannot be construed as our actually giving medical advice. Given this is amateur legal advice, I wonder what someone like the Wikimedia Foundation might say about whether disclaimers imply
    We constantly have people giving professional medical, veterinary, dietary, legal and investment advice, and a presumption by some users that they are simply entitled to answer whatever question they find "interesting" regardless of our policy. (Many of these questions are obvious trolling, in any case, but that's a side issue.)
    We have templates for removing such comments, but their existence is taken as an inconvenience by some, not as an indication that the community thinks it is appropriate and expected to remove such material.
    I think at the very least we need stronger guidelines at the top of the ref desk pages advising any material that would require a license to answer (i.e, for which one could be convicted of fraudulently posing as a licensed professional) will be removed. I am a bit busy in the real world right now, with an overdue work project and a broken toe, among other disasters, but I think all the current contributors on the ref desk medical/veterinary issues should be asked for comment, not just the ones mentioned by name above. In the meantime, I support Ian.thomson's complaint.μηδείς (talk) 21:20, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Medies approach of removing questions without comment is completely inappropriate, since there is no opportunity to garner a consensus, and she has shown, in the past, that she is incapable of correctly determining which questions are in need of removal. StuRat (talk) 05:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • This subject of bruxing hits close to home for me, as I am close to someone who has lost nearly all their teeth over time due to bruxing which, had it been properly diagnosed early on, might have been preventable. The good faith question by someone who claims to be bruxing deserves a good faith response warning of the risks and to see a professional. To dismiss the questioner with no information is unfair to that questioner. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:24, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also, the complainant here claimed I was giving a "diagnosis", which is a false claim, and is why I said "You're wrong". Had the complainant read the bruxism article (which I seriously doubt he has done even yet), calling it bruxism is not a "diagnosis", it's by definition what he's describing - grinding of teeth at night and also during the day is bruxing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:35, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    My reversion shouldn't be seen as a personal comment on BBB's editting; I have also advised users to contact a doctor in various cases. I don't think this thread should necessarily be about sanctioning or pointing out any one editor. The problem here was with the question itself in regards to stated policy. The best response is immediate removal of the question and a polite suggestion on the user page that in case of any serious medical issue one should seek licensed professional advice. μηδείς (talk) 21:39, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I explained my thinking on restoring it, but in case you missed it: to explain that clenching/grinding teeth is called "bruxism" is simply a vocabulary word, like saying that a broken arm with the bones sticking out is a compound fracture. This helps the questioner look up information but it is not a medical diagnosis. The OP already understood the drug was causing this side effect, already knew what it was, already was under a doctor's care, but simply needed a word, a search term, to help him learn more about the phenomenon. The only actual justification given for this policy is "ethical" in nature, but how can it be unethical to let someone know what the word for something is? I don't deny there's a slippery slope one way or the other here, but the way I see it the push for expansive interpretation of this policy has already slid that slope far beyond the stated goal of trying to keep laymen from representing themselves as doctors. I also note that Baseball Bugs has previously been one of the strongest advocates of such expansive interpretations, and when even he backpedals on the idea that ought to tell you something. Wnt (talk) 21:44, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • The comments by StuRat and Aspro test the policy, but I think the case can be made in their favor. StuRat essentially gave the "ask a medical professional" advice that some have seemed to approve of when in this situation in the past, with the added wrinkle that he suggested to ask a dentist about something a dentist would prescribe. The sticky point is that someone taking his advice might twist it a little, skip the doctor and dentist and buy a generic mouth guard at Wal-Mart, and get temporomandibular joint disorder later because it isn't really a solution to the underlying issue. That isn't his intent, though. Aspro gave what sound like medical treatments, except... these are nutritional supplements. Whether people like it or not, nutritional supplements are not regulated by the medical industry, not usually considered by doctors, not regarded as serious treatment, just as foods more or less. So if they're not medical, they're not medical advice. General advice is also prohibited, but since Aspro described this as personal experience rather than a recommendation that too is at least nominally avoided. They're both border cases but I think any criticism to be done is better done via answering the question than in ANI wikilawyering. Wnt (talk) 21:58, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • You all realize that the thread in question was removed from the ref desk again 16.5 hours before this ANI thread was even started, and has not been reinstated since then, right? Arguing for the sake of arguing is fine, just making sure you all realize that's what you're doing. Now that Wnt has accused someone besides himself of wikilawyering, the thread has probably jumped the shark... --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:12, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Floquenbeam: I was not accusing anyone - I just think any difference regarding scientific facts should be handled directly rather than in an administrative discussion. Wnt (talk) 22:24, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This all goes to show the consequences of rendering a poor decision. In contrast, we have this, in which Medeis hatted something based on it being a request for speculation and professional advice. I think that's quite a stretch, especially as the question was already answered before it was hatted. But the point is that Medeis left it in place rather than trying to censor it as the complainant here did - a poor decision which naturally ballooned. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:03, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • So we've got this article Trans fat. It says, Although trans fats are edible, consumption of trans fats has shown to increase the risk of coronary heart disease[2][3] (Presumably those little numbers mean we didn't just make that up.) An unreasonable interpretation of "no medical advice" would be that must go from the article, but that'd just be silly. Not giving misguided folks who come to the reference desk for medical advice is ethical. Simply removing their query on a wiki-technicality is rude. How about simply saying: "Here's our article on bruxism; per Wikipedia policy we can't give specific medical advice and encourage you to see a medical professional?" NE Ent 22:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The user did not say he was curious about teeth grinding. He said he has a medical condition. Seek a professional, end of story. If you want to put a note on the user's talk page advising him to see a doctor, fine. But discussing his condition at the ref desk is simply against stated policy. μηδείς (talk) 22:43, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there really a license that is required to allow its holder to counsel people about how to deal with ass-crack sweat? I wonder what the ICD-10 code is for this condition... :) And the question about how to set up an office... I know there was some indignancy about interior designers managing to require licensing for their guild in some U.S. state, but we don't have a policy against interior design advice. Your examples here... those are the sort of things I would have chosen myself to lampoon your position. Wnt (talk) 22:49, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment They maybe a ICD-10 code is for this condition as it happens, such as [161] but on Wikipedia we don't provide medical diagnosis . So I can not tell anyone what it is (Ho, ho). :¬)--Aspro (talk) 23:09, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
    There's nothing in Wikipedia:Medical disclaimer that says anything about hatting discussions; based on that logic any article talk page discussion about a medical topic would have to be hatted immediately, which would make it difficult to come to consensus. NE Ent 03:13, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Also note that Aspro and I replied on the user's talk page, not the Ref Desk, so Ref Desk policies do not apply. StuRat (talk) 05:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Without commenting on the original debate, I just wanted to point out that, by definition, a disclaimer is not a policy. The medical disclaimer doesn't say "You can't give medical advice" it says "If you read it on Wikipedia, it's not medical advice", that's a world of difference. If I give you a disclaimer saying "Anything I say should not be construed as medical advice", then advise you to take some aspirin to help your headache, it means that I'm saying that as a lay person based on what I would do, not as someone competent and in a position to give a medical opinion on the issue, not that I'm violating my own policy of not advising on medical issues. In short, the way the disclaimer is being cited above doesn't make sense, either as the disclaimer is written nor as the fact that it is a disclaimer.Phoenixia1177 (talk) 07:16, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed. I remember seeing someone at the Refdesk talk page trying to repurpose the disclaimer as a prohibitive policy, but this is clearly an abuse. This isn't just because it's a disclaimer, it's because, well, read it: "If you need specific advice (for example, medical, legal, financial or risk management) please seek a professional who is licensed or knowledgeable in that area." That's all it says, and I see nothing about not giving advice, hatting threads, taking people to ANI or anything else in there but a "please seek a professional", for which I should thank them. Wnt (talk) 13:15, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Delete redirect

    Your wish is my command. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Hi,

    I've moved a misplaced WP:AFC to the draft space can someone delete the redirect for Joanne Sharp. Amortias (T)(C) 22:14, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Block evasion by Claudia McHenry?

    Hello, I'm Claudia and i'm a user on Wikipedia, and was blocked out of nowhere by ponyo on some block evasion grounds.

    Several days ago, i forgot to log in to my account when i made an edit adding the birthday to the Christina Hoff-sommers page, and found that the IP address that my son usually edits from was blocked. It strikes me as strange that this block was put on the IP out of nowhere, so instead i have to edit from my appartment to ask the an/i to review the block on the IP address. I don't care about my account and there's no point blocking this IP as i'm moving march second to Vancouver. Please review the block on the address, or explain where the block evasion accusation originates. Was there a user formerly known as Claudia McHenry that was an unruly user years ago? Thanks. 209.202.4.50 (talk) 22:55, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Its going to be difficult to review an IP block wihtout knowing the IP address. Could you provide further info. Also its a bad idea to come to WP:ANI and admit to being a blocked account socking via an IP. Unless the block also involved the talk page of the IP address you would have been able to appeal the block there. Amortias (T)(C) 23:01, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    To me this idea that someone who accidentally doesn't log in can then be blocked, and then later accused of being a sockpuppet evading a block, smacks of the same sort of backwards logic and everyone-is-a-criminal mentality that lets police arrest people for resisting arrest (when no other crime is evident). The details of the block are not difficult to find in User:Ponyo's log [162] (date January 23). In any case, the chronology appears to be: (1) 199.101.61.190 (talk · contribs) edits Christina Hoff Sommers to add the day and month of birth, but without sources, and is immediately reverted (with an edit summary indicating that the reverter treated the edit as a good faith one, but unhelpful); (2) Ponyo blocks the IP for no obvious reason with the edit summary "block evasion"; (3) Claudia McHenry (talk · contribs) logs in, and politely asks Ponyo what the block was for; (4) Ponyo makes the block on the IP permanent, blocks Claudia, and prevents Claudia from appealing the block by using the setting that prevents her from editing her talk page. Unless I am missing something major, this seems like a gross overreaction on Ponyo's part. Maybe Ponyo can come here and explain? —David Eppstein (talk) 23:27, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Again, i'm sorry if i broke a rule by not logging in before editing that page. Serg, the guy who edits from the IP accoutn usually says his edits were undone or something like that. Also if i'm breaking a rule by posting here, i appolojize deeply. 209.202.4.50 (talk) 23:45, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Clearly you are missing something DE and you should not use terms like "gross overreaction" (I have not seen P overreact to anything in all the years of their adminship) until you have "all" the facts. Ponyo has been working with SPI reports and checkusers for months now and this could well be related to that work. MarnetteD|Talk 23:49, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with DE. Color me skeptical. See below. Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    you should not use terms like "gross overreaction" ... until you have "all" the facts. Sheesh. DE said "Unless I am missing something major, this seems like a gross overreaction", thus hedging and softening his statement not one but two different ways. Seems like MarnetteD's objection to the use of gross overreaction was an overreaction, if perhaps not a gross one. MHO. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support unblock per the above. I have the same problem, as many of the IPs used by my mobile device are connected with known, long-time abuse accounts who use proxy IPs offered by my provider. Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Really. This is an almost laughable case of jumping the gun. This thread needs to have "all the facts" and a reply from Ponyo before any decision is made on the block. MarnetteD|Talk 23:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I travvle a wholel ot so if i seem to jump accross the map, it's because i attend different sociological events including talks, as well as i'm currently in the process of moving to Vancouver so i can get better care for my mesothelioma. So if people see me on bad Ip's, then you know why. I'll do my best to remember to log in from now on if that's the issue. 209.202.4.50 (talk) 00:02, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Please use spellcheck before saving your comments. Viriditas (talk) 00:25, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Ok, I’ll do that from now on, apologies I’m sure that ponyo’s a good person and I have nothing at all against them, nor do I wish to attack them in any way. I only want to know why they are charging me for a murder I did not commit.


    Claudia 209.202.5.171 (talk) 04:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I've attempted to contact Ponyo several times to ask him/her the reason for this block, and my post on his/her page gets promptly deleted and i get promptly blocked. I then sent an e-mail to their account using the e-mail this user function, no response, and it's been one week, which is plenty of time to get back to me. If something was truely wrong then i think Ponyo would have explained it or would be willing to explain it to me. Instead, i question, the question is deleted, i get blocked and have to go accross town to have any chance of defending myself, it's madness is what it is. I really hope Ponyo replies to this or is at least willing to leave a message on my account's talk page with an explanation, else i be unblocked or at least the 199 IP be unblocked. I'd highly recommend that if people suspect any bad activity that they first notify the user of this activity and how they came to that conclusion before they even think about blocking and speedy-deleting it. Even with 34 years of studying psychology and sociology behind me i still don't understand how this could be considered benefitial to Wikipedia in any way. Again, i don't think Ponyo's a bad person, i just want to know why he/she screams bloody murder when i did nothing wrong to my knowledge. I admitted my mistake to Ponyo and that should be enough. End with a "don't do i again please" then move on, not "block her," then move on and hope that this goes away. I came here with the intent to help Wikipedia, and help it i shall, I'd like to follow the rules while doing it and if problems arise, i want a chance to address them before any punishment of any kind is dished out. That's all i ask Ponyo, you're a good person, but you made a mistake. Sorry if i seem angry in this post, it isn't intended to be any form of attack, i'm just stating things from my point of view that's all. Good night, i have a long day tomorrow and won't be able to reply for a while after, i'm going to be away untill the 8th, so won't be able to reply back untill then. Thank you guies for your help.

    PS, don't edit when you're using a smaller touch screen and you have big hands, it's a nightmare to correct. Claudia 209.202.5.171 (talk) 06:07, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Topic-ban proposal for Robert Walker (2)

    After a previous ANI-discussion, which ended stale-mate, Robert has continued his disruptive behaviour.

    Enough is enough: I propose a topic-ban for Robert for Buddhism, Hinduism and India related articles. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    NB: RW also seems to be discussing this at Facebook diff. Or am I overreacting now? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:36, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - enough. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Robert is now stalking Joshua Jonathan.VictoriaGraysonTalk 14:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neutral as presented and at this time. Comment It isn't clear, at least without hearing from the subject, that a topic-ban is the right remedy, or that the scope of the topic-ban, as proposed, is appropriate. It is clear that at least one editor, Robert Walker, has conduct issues in the area of Buddhist-related topics. That was obvious a month ago. It was also apparent that there were content issues concerning Buddhism. At the time, I advised Robert Walker to request dispute resolution at the dispute resolution noticeboard concerning the Buddhist content issues. He continues to say that he plans to do that, but he has had plenty of time. At the time, I also recommended a restriction on his talk page privileges to restrict his use of walls of text; that was archived without resolution. It now appears, but I haven't researched in detail, that Robert Walker may be disruptively editing with regard to an India-related fringe theory about the origin of languages (that Indo-European languages originated in India rather than elsewhere). I don't see any connection to Hinduism. (The fringe theory is commonly supported by Hindu nationalists, but is not limited to Hindu nationalists.) I haven't researched the diffs by the filing parties in detail as to harassment. It does appear, based on first glance (without lengthy research), that Robert Walker is now stirring up trouble by campaigning for the involvement of new editors on his side of the controversy; and that raises the possibility that he has become a general trouble-maker for whom a block or a site-ban is more appropriate. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - In view of the following thread about the Vedic period, it appears that this combination of content issues and conduct issues may have spread to the point where the ArbCom should be asked to open a case. arbitration enforcement is needed under WP:ARBIPA with respect to India-related issues. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support in order to prevent "silent interaction", that is, following JJ and opposing without making the interaction obvious. This stalking needs to be dealt with. The combination of a topic-ban and an interaction ban is less drastic than a site ban. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Send to arbcom. After seeing the explosion of anger at the FTN thread it seems clear to me that arbcomm could at least allow for discretionary sanctions so that administrators could act to stem the tide of aggravation that our good faith content contributors are experiencing. !Voting to ban this one editor is only a bandaid on a wound much too large for a bandaid. jps (talk) 17:59, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Discretionary sanctions are already in force for everything India-related. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Buddhism isn't subject to discretionary sanctions except in the country of its origin, which is not primarily a Buddhist country. The issue about the origin of Indo-European languages does have to do with whether they came from India or went to India. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:33, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If discretionary sanctions are in place then we should send this over to WP:AE. If they aren't, then we should ask arbcom to broaden them. jps (talk) 22:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The basic problem is that I cleaned-up the Karma in Buddhism article, and Robert didn't like that. He wants a roll-back to the version before my clean-up, and a discussion of my edits, without wanting to participate in that discussion (the talkpahe already contains extensive explanations of my edits, and they are supported by several competent editors). He's been filling several talkpages now with his demands, repeating over and over again that I'm a POV-pusher who's ruining articles. He's also stating for a couple of months now that he's going to file a DRN-request, without doing so. And now he's started to canvass other editors, and trying to re-open a debate about which he knows nothing at all, en passant attacking me again. So, I'm through with him. Let him use the normal dispute resolution, that his, file his DRN, or just stay away. But not attacking me over and over again, without even remotely trying to or engaging in a form of concencus-building. He's only making it worse and worse. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:17, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Joshua Jonathan has given three diffs as instance of Robert Walker harrassing him: 1, 2, 3. I am afraid I do not see any uncivil language or attack. --AmritasyaPutraT 09:39, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment Further comment on the third link provided by Joshua as proof of harrassment: well, a discussion getting closed in less than 24h with a clear verdict is a mockery of a discussion. I also think the appeal is fully justified and a patient hearing is due instead of attack on those who chose to question the closure. Or rather haunting those who questioned the closure is a clear case of attack as it has been done rightfully within due limits in a civil manner. --AmritasyaPutraT 09:49, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Amritasya, I'm talking about "harassment": following me around, stating at various talkpages that I'm a POV-pusher who's ruining articles, without substantiating those comments. What he also did when he requsted to reopen this debate, suggesting that I'm biased and a poor editor. As if I'm the only one thinking, no, recognising, that the "Indigenist" position is fringe, or that I'm incompetent. I think it's quite clear from my edit-record that I'm a competent editor. So yes, when those kind of insuniations happen again and again, it feels like an attack. Robert keeps repeating "I'm working on a DRN", but we're still waiting. Instead of brandmarking me, he should actually try to resolve his "dispute". He's not doing so; he's only repeating his allegations. So yes, I've had enough of it.
    Regarding reopening the debate: at third thought, I think it might be a good idea to re-open it, to settle this once and for all. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:08, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I can only follow the diffs that you provided. Provide more diff to substantiate the "harassment", those three diff are not harassment. --AmritasyaPutraT 15:46, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Instead of guessing, check edit history and come up with diffs. Speculating with assume-bad-faith is not done. --AmritasyaPutraT 15:46, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I am satisfied with the samples provided by User:Joshua Jonathan and have no reason to distrust his statement about the general pattern. Kautilya3 (talk) 18:22, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Neither do I. Those diff are not attack that anyone can see. It should be simple to provide diffs, since it is being requested. Thank you. --AmritasyaPutraT 05:40, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Scroll trhough the following talkpages:
    If you think that's too much, here's the diff for the Dzogchen talkpage. Here's my intitoal response, in which I already noted his Wiki-hounding. Also read Jim's response. He even admitted "Yes I did find this article by looking through your recent edit history, but that's in preparation for posting about your edits to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard" diff. Also have a look at the history of the Zogchen talkpage to see ho he goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and ad infinitum.
    Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:07, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for detailed, clear response. Now it makes sense. Wikihounding. I have faced it too. I hope admins take appropriate action, I have withdrawn my oppose vote in-place. Thanks. --AmritasyaPutraT 06:14, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - This is Jonathan's second attempt to intimidate Robert and prevent him from submitting a DNR related to Jonathan's edits. - Dorje108 (talk) 03:50, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    "Skip the "intimidate", and try to understand, for one time, what's going on. And if you want to help Robert post his DRN, you could have closed your RfC weeks ago already, as I've asked you before. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:55, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support although I'd rather see a one-way interaction ban. To me the problem is that Robert Walker is following Joshua Johnson to pages that the latter has edited, and this disruptive behaviour needs to be addressed. While a topic ban would prevent RW from following JJ to pages related to this topic, it doesn't prevent RW from following JJ to other topics should JJ choose to edit them. However, a topic ban will prevent some such disruption and it's better than no remedy at all. Ca2james (talk) 16:56, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Interaction ban

    I found Robert Walker's entry into the WP:FTN thread whose closure he has requested be reviewed, in the middle of the thread. I concur with User:Joshua Jonathan and User:VictoriaGrayson that he has been stalking Joshua Jonathan's edits, since WP:FTN is not a place he had previously edited. Recommend a one-way interaction ban on interactions of Robert Walker with Joshua Jonathan. That is, Robert Walker may not respond to any posts by Joshua Jonathan. This may seem harsh, but following another editor is harsh. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:24, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:24, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Along with the topic ban proposed by Joshua Jonathan.VictoriaGraysonTalk 16:29, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - as well as the topic ban that I supported above. Kautilya3 (talk) 18:22, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support as Robert Walker is clearly following Joshua Jonathan and disruptively inserting himself into conversatios where he has shown no previous interest and has a lack of expertise. I'm not convinced a topic ban is necessary because once he stops following the other editor around, his disruption in those areas should stop. Ca2james (talk) 18:28, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment But he still can posts at talkpages where I am active? I see a complication there... And if we interpret it strictly: what if he starts to engage a talkpage on a Buddhism or Hinduism related page, and I start editing there too? It would give me a strange kind of "privilege", as it means he would have to back-off. That's not fair, nor clear. So, I'm afraid a topic-ban is still more appropriate. Plus, indeed, also avoidance from my part of areas where Robert is active. Although, he's merely editing a very selective range of talkpages, so in practice this may work. Some admin-feedback would be welcome too, at least for me. Anyway, thanks for the efforts, Robert McC.! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:43, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - Joshua is correct that a one-way interaction ban does work like that. It does not require any avoidance by Joshua. It is true that this is a harsh remedy, but stalking another editor is harsh. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. One-way interaction bans are fundamentally unfair. We should ban both of them if they've both been behaving badly, or if Robert's been the only one causing problems, we should block him. If JJ wants to antagonise RW, he can annoy him with impunity (like Foghorn Leghorn with the dog), and while if JJ acts in complete good faith, someone else could come in and cry "ban violation!" on a page where RW was still trying to obey the ban. See JJ's comment, too, "what if he starts to engage..." He's right. Too much room for wikilawyering and too much room for bad-faith participants to game the system. Nyttend (talk) 04:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose as per Nyttend. To reiterate, one-way interaction bans are unfair. Either make the ban run both ways, or come up with a different solution. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:41, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment: why should I receive an interaction-ban, when Robert is following me around? I am already avoiding him. It might mean that the first one to edit on an article or talkpage "owns" the page. With due lack of humility from my side, it would be a loss for Buddhism and Hinduism-related pages if there is a possibility to stop me from editing on those pages in that way, because one editor objects to my edits. That would be basically unfair. So, if that option is to be ruled out, something else must be thought of. At least it should be clear to him that "dispute resolution" does not mean throwing around accusations at the pages where I am editing, and that he should actually post his DRN, instead of repeating he's going to do so. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:20, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Reply to topic ban

    I want to keep this short as I have warned in the past about length of my post. Do I get a chance to reply? If you are interested in my POV on this proposal, please see reply to the topic ban. (Here I am using the third of my Work arounds for lengthy talk page posts which I developed in response to the previous ANI action.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertinventor (talk • contribs) 29 January 2015 (UTC)

    I was posting this response but the topic was archived when I saved my edit; since this has been re-opened, I figure I'll post it now.
    • DRN is for content issues, not conduct issues, and it isn't necessary to look through an editor's contributions to file for dispute resolution.
    • Whether you went to a page because you found it by looking through his contributions or someone pointed you there, you went there because he was there and that's WP:WIKIHOUNDING, which isn't allowed.
    • To me it looks like you don't like Joshua Johnson's edits or approach to editing and so you're following him to pages and posting about his edits. That's harassment and not allowed, and it's why I support the one-way interaction ban. If the iban isn't going to pass then I support a topic ban. Ca2james (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Requesting an Admin to assess and close the above discussions

    Requesting an Admin to assess and close the above discussions.VictoriaGraysonTalk 23:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Does Wikipedia offer corporate, real estate, hiring, banking and legal advice now? (Note: the neutrality of the wording of this very question is questioned)

    Immediately after the swift closure of the discussion above on medical advice forbidden as professional advice by our disclaimer: "If you need specific advice (for example, medical, legal, financial or risk management) please seek a professional who is licensed or knowledgeable in that area" we have a new thread requesting advice on setting up a new business venue, including the OP asking about, among other things: "finding providers for various [services,] maybe banking, legal, & accounting as well...hir[ing] contractors to build/modify the space, [and] complying with applicable laws (permits, inspections, registrations, certifications, various filings)"

    I have removed this question on the basis of the above decision that we do not give advice in contravention to our disclaimer. [164]

    Nevertheless, both the OP 173.49.17.60, and now Jayron32 diff have seen fit to reopen this discussion. Do we provide corporate, real estate, and legal advice, or don't we? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 01:48, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    (after EC) Your phrasing of the question is misleading--it tends to lead the reader to form the wrong impression about the nature of the dispute. You're mischaracterizing both the nature of my posting and the issue being disputed here. I did NOT request advice of any kind. The text you (Medeis) quoted is about what I expected a business executive would have to address when starting an office at a new location. I did not say I needed to address those issues, and I most definitely did not solicit advice on dealing with issues of those kinds. I invite anyone reading this to refer to my origin posting to read it in its entirety, in context. Given the absence of even a hint of an actual existing situation in which advice is needed, and in the total absence of any particulars about that non-existent situation, there's nothing for anyone to offer advice on.
    What I asked about was how business executives acquire the needed expertise to handle the tasks that I expect needed to be handled. A possible relevant answer could be: many MBA programs include a course on managing the practical logistics of setting up an office, so many MBAs actually are educated in that subject. Another possible relevant answer could be: there's actually a consulting industry that addresses this need, the services offered are generally known by the names ABC or XYZ. Still another possible relevant answer could be: this is actually not as hard as you think; it's like house hunting, only a little harder. If someone could start with a local commercial real estate broker, the broker should be able to tell the client what other professionals to pull in for the project. None of these answers, I submit, amounts to offering (regulated) professional service.
    I don't claim to be very familiar with Wikipedia's policies, but on the surface of it, it only seems to prohibit offering of medical and legal advice (and, I assume, advice whose dispensation is regulated by law.) In your edit to the original thread, you made a blanker comment calling my question "request for advice and speculation", without justification. When challenged to justify why my question supposedly violated Wikipedia policies, you just deleted the question. I am open to be shown wrong, but you never provided anything that amounted to an explanation of why my question supposedly violated Wikipedia policies. --173.49.17.60 (talk) 03:06, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Before Medeis started this discussion, I already had started a discussion at WT:RD and notified Medeis of that discussion. I have no horse in this race, and have no opinion as to the status of the post. I'm not sure why Medeis needs to have this discussion in two venues, especially since the discussion already exists in the more appropriate one. This is the last statement I will make on this matter, as I really don't care one way or the other, I just don't like to see unilateral decisions made for matters which are not clear-cut vandalism, trolling, or inappropriate medical/legal advice. Before medeis deleted the discussion, there was already people who noted it wasn't inappropriate in their opinion, and didn't cross the line. Where reasonable people disagree, one of those in the disagreement shouldn't act unilaterally. Status quo should remain until consensus is reached. If people do eventually agree something is inappropriate, then someone can take action. Otherwise, as I already have noted, I don't see why Medeis feels the need to hold this discussion in two places. --Jayron32 02:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I had started writing this report before I received Jayron's notice. Given there's no horse in this race, I am curious why Jayron accuses me of forum shopping. Given the time stamp of this edit advising the OP to see the decision above, before Jayron's thread in its edit summary, I find the accusation of forum shopping baseless.
    I suspect Jayron may have innocently been ignorant of today's decision on not giving professional advice when it's medical, given he apparently did not read @Knowledgekid87:'s closure with advice to head the disclaimer above. Perhaps @Jayron32: will revert his re-opening of the thread given the discussion here? μηδείς (talk) 02:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    As I said (and this is really my last comment) When the discussion at WT:RD plays out and people have had a chance to comment, decisions can be made. Otherwise, I don't really care. --Jayron32 02:27, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There was no, and I emphasize no, request for advice of any sort (much less professional advice) in my question. Any policy against offering professional advice is irrelevant to the issue discussion here. --173.49.17.60 (talk) 03:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Medeis has misunderstood the RD question. The OP is *not* asking for legal advice etc. He is asking where a start-up with limited resources and experience could find such services, amongst others. That's a totally reasonable RD question. There is no ANI issue here and the proper place to review Medeis's actions is the thread at WT:RD. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:16, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    This is not a request for professional advice of the kind the RD guidelines prohibit. There is no fault requiring administrator intervention here. —Steve Summit (talk) 13:10, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Speedy delete of clearly notable artist

    Hi, I have had an admin speedy delete a page about a musician I created without discussion, or informing or asking me. Now all the effort I put into creating the page is lost and I cannot remake it. I have linked to many sources attesting to the notability of this artist on the users talk page:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bbb23#B.A._Johnston_Article

    I notice that this is not the first time this user has deleted someones work with little or no discussion. I do not believe they are contributing to this project in a helpful manner and I think they're powers are due for some review. Rbc2 (talk) 03:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, the article was very short, had only 2 sources, and didn't do a great of job of displaying his importance (the article says he frequents dive-bars as concert venues, for example.) That being said, there are some sources out there on him, so I'd think it would have been a better choice to send it to WP:AFD and had people debate it. Sergecross73 msg me 03:56, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Bbb23 has deleted the article following a well-established process here on Wikipedia. Simply tell him that you wish to contest the speedy deletion and ask him to restore the article. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 04:04, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The page was deleted as advertising, but there must be some mistake, because it was tagged under A7 (a biography that doesn't explain why the subject is important), and it's definitely not advertising. It hurts to have such pages visible as articles, because if we permit them, we'll have tons of them, but one of them in your userspace won't hurt. I'll be happy to userfy it upon request. In other words, I can un-delete the page and move it to your userspace. There, you can work on it to your heart's content, as policy prohibits the deletion of userspace pages for this kind of reason. Once you think it's ready, you can ask someone for an opinion as to whether it's ready, or you can move it back to where the article was. Just leave a note at my talk page if you want me to help. Nyttend (talk) 04:06, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, Nyttend, in retrospect I don't think I should have deleted this particular article.--Bbb23 (talk) 05:33, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Expertscape

    I have posted this in his talk page after he deleted ExpertScape page and stated" "speedy deletes are just like that".

    ==An Observation== Reading your posted census on your home page, it appears that you have deleted Wikipedia pages 5,000 times more than you have ever created any Wikipedia article. You have blocked and re-blocked users 2,000 times more than unblocking the users. How about the label "wiki-nator" for you, nothing sarcastic, just a neutral suggestion. S.Burntout123 (talk) 04:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

    S.Burntout123 (talk) 04:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    How is this relevant to the noticeboard? Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 04:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Is this directed towards @Nyttend:? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:48, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it's not; you can find it at User_talk:Bbb23#An_Observation. Nyttend (talk) 04:57, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree too then that I don't know why it is here on the noticeboard or what positive things can come from it in any case. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not any more you can't. I removed it. You can, of course, look at the edit history if you're burning (no pun intended) to see it.--Bbb23 (talk) 05:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree too then that I don't know why it is here on the noticeboard or what positive things can come from it in any case. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The post was about the recent deletions by [Bbb23]. I am told that some of Bbb23's today's deletions are being discussed here. I shared the mere fact that this editor has deleted articles 5,000 times more than he/she has created articles, and Bbb23 has blocked 2,000 more people than unblocked people. These data are posted on his/her talk page as the only data about this editor. I wonder if such a high ratio of delete to create can allow somebody to qualify for the privilege of being an "editor". If mentioning these data are considered inappropriate, then I am truly sorry and have learned something new. On the other hand, I, a random, low-tier user, am posing a serious questions to our astute editors and their unrestricted right to "speedy delete" hours (to days to months) of people's work. I look forward to be educated and to a healthy discussion (without hopefully being deleted speedily). Thank youS.Burntout123 (talk) 05:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Looks like the OP is pissed off about the deletion of Expertscape for lack of a credible assertion of notability, but fails to point out that the article has been deleted three times before, only one of those times by Bbb23. BMK (talk) 05:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    To shed light on the incident and to request astute editors to kindly review, Bbb23 deleted the article on "ExpertScape" despite contest to start a discussion and evaluation with due process. I asked Bbb23 to allow a period of healthy discussion and review but Bbb23 deleted the page without any discussion and only minutes after tagging it under "speedy deletion". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expertscape Upon requesting the opportunity to review, Bbb23 asserted: "No, speedy deletes are just that, speedy. They don't require a discussion.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:38, 1 February 2015 (UTC)" In my opinion, and I may be wrong, "speedy deletes are just speedy deletes" would not qualify the action and may misrepresent the true spirit of "collaborative" nature of Wikipedia. Bbb23 deleted the article on "ExpertScape" despite contest to start a discussion and evaluation with due process and despite the request to allow a healthy period of review and discussion. Honestly I have no idea who or what runs the ExpertScape, and I am not even sure if this is a company or enterprise or autopilot web operation. I feel (and happy to discuss if I am not deleted or blocked) that "notability" is met here, since the nationally renowned medical centers and USA based medical schools refer to ExpertScape rankings. If so the Wikipedia is warranted to have a neutral reference about this. One would benefit from seeing an informative article that is not promotional but indeed critical and questions certain angles such as source of funding and other limits. The article was deleted only once before, it was then recreated after months of work and stayed on Wikipedia for several months until today where 2 editors deleted it within minutes of each other. I sincerely request a review and discussion not only on Template:ExpertScape but also on the fundamental question of the status of "editor" if one has deleted 5,000 times more than created articles. S.Burntout123 (talk) 05:55, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Have you actually requested a deletion review of the speedy deletion? —C.Fred (talk) 06:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I looked at the deleted article, and it looks like we haven't lost anything except some badly-supported promotional puffery. We're not here to host an ad for a website. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 06:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you, C.Fred, and yes, I have filed "Requests for Undeletion" according to a great editor and await next step. I do not agree with TeonA... this is not promotional at all. If my original posting was promotional, then please go ahead and edit. It takes a lot of time and effort to edit and amend and improve, while it is more convenient to "just delete". As WP editors you have great responsibility which is beyond and above "delete". Look forward to a better and more tolerant world than discrediting and deleting the articles of low-tier users. Give us a chance to discuss and educate than calling something "badly-supported promotional puffery". Thank you all for your important contributions and editing efforts. S.Burntout123 (talk) 06:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Four admins in the last year have a different opinion of the article from yours: the three that deleted it, and TenOfAllTrades above. Since you have a vested interest in the article being in Wikipedia, and they only have a vested interest in following Wikipedia policies, I'm rather inclined to think that they are correct, and you are not.

    By the way, what's your connection to the company? BMK (talk) 06:35, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • The user is confusing WP:DRV with WP:REFUND. He's been to the latter. Indeed, he's posted at least part of the article there, so we're still hosting an ad for the website. I realize you're all focused on whether the article should or should not have been deleted, but I'd pay just a little more attention to the user's conduct as the issue of the deletion doesn't even belong on this noticeboard except the user's claims that I've abused my powers because I deleted an article without due process and discussion, which, of course, is patent nonsense in the context of a speedy delete. I'm going off-wiki and I'll let those of you who are more patient than I deal with this as you will.--Bbb23 (talk) 06:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    May I ask to please not attack users. It is disruptive to accuse a user: <<<"so we're still hosting an ad for the website">>>. If there is any ad anywhere, then please go ahead and remove anything that sounds promotional, so that this discussion can remain focused on the fundamental 2 questions: (1) Speedy deletion of the article. (2) The qualification of an editor who has deleted 5,000 time more than he/she contributed to "editing" WP articles (and these are the data that Bbb23 has posted on his/her page, please visit Bbb23 home page). I truly look forward to be educated here and have immense respect for hardworking WP editors who contribute immensely in this treasure.S.Burntout123 (talk) 06:42, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    So, it's OK for you to attack Bbb23 by calling him the "Wiki-nator", but when he points out your conduct problems, that's somehow not allowed? I think not.

    So, you socked in 2011 as User:Burntout1234, what's your relationship to User:Europeisme, who created the deleted article Burnt-out diabetes mellitus, a copy of which has been in your user space since 2010, despite your failing to work on it -- the only reason that deleted articles should be in userspace -- since 2011, despite your stated intention to do so in 2013. What is the relationship between this article and Expertscape? And, again, what is your relation to Expertscape? BMK (talk) 06:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I am not sure if it was the most appropriate time to attack me and my contributions and to delete my other works and projects. I truly feel harassed and ask for protection during this sensitive time asking that the focus on my fundamental questions about the legitimacy of certain editors are not diverted by going after my page. This reminds us of the IRS suddenly auditing 6 years of tax records when one has dares to question the government's actions in Vietnam. I have absolutely no relationship with ExpertScape and have no idea who these people you have listed are. I hope that we are not experiencing McCarthyism. Is this really the price a low-tier user has to pay for questioning the qualification of an editor who has deleted 5,000 more than contributing to articles? S.Burntout123 (talk) 07:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I had sent this editor to WP:UNDELETE under the impression they are "a process intended to assist users in restoring pages or files that were uncontroversially deleted via proposed deletion [or] under speedy deletion criteria". They also handle userfication so it could be submitted through AfC which I thought would be better for this kind of editor and article. EoRdE6(Come Talk to Me!) 07:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you, I truly feel harassed by several editors here and ask for support and protection and the right to ask the fundamental questions about editors who delete 5,000 times more than contributing to article. Hope the low-tier users are not supposed to stop questioning the editors as a contingency to survive. S.Burntout123 (talk) 07:23, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You come here bitching and calling names, then complain about being harassed -- and in the complaint repeat the attack you started with. Beauty.

    As noted on your talk page, I have nominated User:Burntout123/Burnt-out diabetes mellitus – a deleted article which was userfied to your userspace 4 1/2 3 1/2 years ago – for deleton, as you have had plenty of time to work it into an acceptable article and have not done so. The nomination can be found at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Burntout123/Burnt-out diabetes mellitus, and you can make your arguments there.

    In the meantime, I suggest that an univolved admin might like to consider blocking Burntout123 for a short period of time if he repeats his attack on Bbb23 again. BMK (talk) 07:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Once again I am asking for help and protection against intensified harassment and attacks by certain editors. BMK just deleted my userified project with this message on his talk page: "Bullshit, you can't save the article by adding some crap you dug up in 5 second of Googling. BMK (talk) 07:16, 1 February 2015 (UTC)"S.Burntout123 (talk) 07:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, you added this one sentence to the article: "Since then over 50 papers have mentioned the term according to Google Scholar including in recent publications in New England Journal of Medicine in 2013, and there have been over 500 citations of the publications on burnt-out diabetes." and called it a "new version". BMK (talk) 07:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    I've just deleted User:Burntout123/sandbox, a userspace copy of the article that was created with the AGF-destroying edit summary "Expertscape doppelgaenger as back-up for future deletions". I think it's pretty clear by now that this user isn't here for any reason other than to promote this website. —Cryptic 08:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Sadly the harassment has continued by these certain editors, while supportive and balanced editors do not appear to feel comfortable to say anything. The original questions have been overshadowed, and instead the low-tier users and their home page have been attacked and vandalized. I ask the true WP editors to protect the low-tier users against further attacks and public accusations and harassment. If a user dares to question the legitimacy of the editors who delete much more than contributing to WP, it is not professional to suggest to "block him for a short period" to teach the user a lesson. The very foundation of WP comes into question which such approaches, similar to the time when a government justify torture. Hope we control our emotions and biases and remain focused on the original questions: Can an editor be legitimate if he/she deletes thousands of times more than contributing to articles? Is the fundamental act of asking this question the reason to be blocked and to be harassed? S.Burntout123 (talk) 09:03, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Admins mostly carry out the tasks requested by others...at least as much janitor compared to the judge+executioner you presume it to be. I recommend you focus on what you actually want done and use diffs and other details of specific actions rather than than raising vague raw data claims (Lies, damned lies, and statistics). By policy, blocks are preventive not punitive--if you appear to be disrupting wikipedia, you'll be blocked so that the rest of us can get back to writing an encyclopedia. DMacks (talk) 09:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Speaking of destroying AGF, there's this gem: User:Burntout123/Neovandalism. Looks like the axe has been on the grind for a long time. --Kinu t/c 09:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Regarding the Neovandalism article – yet another userfied deleted article in Burntout123's user space – see this AN/I thread. BMK (talk) 09:52, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Are you going after the user and auditing the last 6 years of his/her tax return because he/she dared to question the government actions in Vietnam? Am I suddenly running out of time? Given these circumstances, I hereby request 4 weeks of protection to update and complete my userified projects, while requesting that they not be touched or deleted during this period including ExpertScape, Diabetes and Neovandalism. I truly ask that I and my pages be protected during this period of time. I am happy to stop further posting during this time. S.Burntout123 (talk) 09:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I won't respond to the nonsensical part of your comment, but I will point out that you've been here over 3.5 years and your attitude in most of your non-article edits is pretty much the same as it was in your first edit. Perhaps you should take a step back and consider whether it's not us, but you... and then determine whether a collaborative project such as Wikipedia is the right one for you. --Kinu t/c 09:20, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    One week is the standard for XfD. That should be plenty of time to find even a bare handful of actual reliable sources to support notability and prove an article/topic is minimally viable. One week, on top of however many previous years... DMacks (talk) 09:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks and will do. Can I ask that the deleted projects and pages be placed back for this period and nothing else be changed or deleted while we interrupt all postings and discussions by all parties for one week? I appreciate 7 days of protection and pieace and kindly ask others also to stop. Thank youS.Burntout123 (talk) 09:40, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure, you can request that, but I doubt your request will be honored.

    Regarding this user's behavior, reading this version of C.Fred's talk page from 2011 is very illuminating, especially when read in conjunction with this version of Burntout123's talk page from the same period. BMK (talk) 09:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Why don't you just store your prospective article on your PC and upload it when you think it's ready. Then there's no time limit. You can take 20 years to finish if you want. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Jaminw10

    Will someone please block Jaminw10 (talk · contribs) asap. Still waiting at AIV. Thank you. APK whisper in my ear 06:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

     Done.--Bbb23 (talk) 06:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Incidentally

    I started to mention this earlier, after reverting this guy's concision,[165] except my connection timed out, and I nearly forgot. With all things considered, I think that hosting this guy's talk page further is an exercise in wasting valuable resources. Thank you.--John Cline (talk) 06:01, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    We rarely delete user talk pages. I don't see why this one should be an exception.--Bbb23 (talk) 06:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm sorry, I should have been more clear – that I think he is skirting with having his talk page access revoked. Perhaps I am being overzealous, though I believe I am not. Cheers.--John Cline (talk) 07:43, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I've revoked talk page access, which should be the end of that. Nothing else to see here. --Kinu t/c 09:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Page deletion request

    Thanks everyone, Oversight is on the case. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 14:47, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Someone I know created an article, and when they did, they accidentally copied and pasted some embarrassing text from my email, with my name on it. That's been removed from the article, but it still shows in the history. Is there anyone out there who can take pity on me and delete the article, history and all, so it's not out there humiliating me forever? If not, I may have to kill myself. I don't want to name the article here, and make everyone in the world go and look at it. I'm begging for mercy here. I've made hundreds of good faith edits on Wikipedia and I think I deserve a little mercy. --Rosekelleher (talk) 12:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi Rosekelleher, I've removed some of the information above as part of my reqpsonse here to prevent information being misused. There is a link at the top of the page where you can request information be removed from the edit histories to prevent it being publicly available. If you edit the page and see the red box marked Oversight and follow the instructions there. Amortias (T)(C) 12:52, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    You should probably ask the oversight team, if you email them the information at oversight-en-wp@wikipedia.org they will take care of it confidentially. -- GB fan 12:54, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And please don't kill yourself. Nothing in that email could be that bad, and this is something that can be handled without much fuss. Reyk YO! 13:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you...I can't find any red box marked "oversight" but someone did direct me to a form for sending email to oversight, so I've sent them an email with my request. --Rosekelleher (talk) 13:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It's still there. Is there anyone who can delete the page now, before everyone sees it? --Rosekelleher (talk) 13:52, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Any admin can revision-delete it while waiting for the oversight people to completely remove it - admins would still be able to see it in the meantime, but at least most people wouldn't. Is there any admin watching to whom Rosekelleher can email the details? Squinge (talk) 14:08, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe they're watching this page, but all they see in the watchlist is "Page deletion request," and (I see now) this isn't the right place for that. The instructions say that while your oversight request is pending you can ask an admin privately to delete it, but I don't know any admins personally and don't know who to ask. --Rosekelleher (talk) 14:44, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It's been done now. Squinge (talk) 14:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Block?

    A mop to Tarc's aisle, please. [166] --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks Favonian. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:54, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    WP:CIR block needed

    ADHZ07111989 (talk · contribs)

    User repeatedly created a hoax article about a later Sui dynasty (not the historical Sui dynasty, but a revival that lasted far longer) based on this alternate history Wikia. After being warned about it (repeatedly), he shows himself shifting to a singular focus in creating the article, refusing to hear out any warnings and continuing to ask people for permission and even help in creating a hoax article. When I explained what alternate history is, he cited sources about the historical Sui dynasty as if they were sources about the "later" Sui dynasty, and even sources about the Ming dynasty (which occupies the spot where the "later" Sui dynasty was supposed to be). And no, "Later Sui dynasty" is not an alternate name for the Ming dynasty.

    To put this in perspective, this is like someone trying to create an article about the "second Ostrogothic empire" that occupied Germany from 962 to 1806, citing a video game Wikia and books (in their own language) either about the original Ostrogoths and the Holy Roman Empire. Either they're a troll or they're at a level of incompetence that cannot be described without violating WP:NPA. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:02, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    ADHZ07111989 (talk) 16:08, 1 February 2015 (UTC)This is my argument:[reply]

    Please visit the ctext.org and see there at Song-Ming section it is not about era of legacy Sui it is about Later Sui II " http://ctext.org/song-ming " upsurp at the era. See about the text above.

    Click for ... well, things. Drmies (talk)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Attention please. The references for Later Sui Empire are:

    References 

      *Dragon Tales: China’s History from Tang to Qing. Singapore: Singapore: Asiapac Books. 2006.
  *梁惠王章句上 page 6
  *西遊記 part 朱紫國唐僧論前世　孫行者施為三折肱
  *廣韻 Part 上平聲 Bab 支 Lineage 隨
  *廣韻 part 上平聲 Domain 脂 Title 伊
  *太平御覽,人事部五十六,《孝女》
  *《草木四》 Part 《叙牡丹》 Page 1
  *之 Part 葘
  *Dragon Tales: China’s History from Tang to Qing. Singapore: Singapore: Asiapac Books. 2006.
  *Dragon Tales: China’s History from Tang to Qing. Singapore: Singapore: Asiapac Books. 2006.
  Hawley, Samuel (2005). The Imjin War. Japan's Sixteenth-Century Invasion of Korea and Attempt to Conquer China. Seoul: The Royal Asiatic Society, Korea Branch. pp. 195f. ISBN 89-954424-2-5.
  Turnbull, Stephen (2002). Samurai Invasion. Japan’s Korean War 1592–98. London: Cassell & Co. p. 244. ISBN 0-304-35948-3.
  Roh, Young-koo (2004). "Yi Sun-shin, an Admiral Who Became a Myth". The Review of Korean Studies 7 (3): 13.
  *鬼三十五 Part 《浮梁張令》
  *Dragon Tales: China’s History from Tang to Qing. Singapore: Singapore: Asiapac Books. 2006.

    The online version of references can you read at ctext.org, as follow: 

      *梁惠王章句上 page 6

    夫，音扶。浡，音勃。由當作猶，古字借用。後多放此。周七八月，夏五六月也。油然，雲盛貌。沛然，雨盛貌。浡然，興起貌。禦，禁止也。人牧，謂牧民之君也。領，頸也。蓋好生惡死，人心所同。故人君不嗜殺人，則天下悅而歸之。蘇氏曰：「孟子之言，非苟為大而已。然不深原其意而詳究其實，未有不以為迂者矣。予觀孟子以來，自漢高祖及光武及唐太宗及我太祖皇帝，能一天下者四君，皆以不嗜殺人致之。其餘殺人愈多而天下愈亂。秦晉及隋，力能合之，而好殺不已，故或合而復分，或遂以亡國。孟子之言，豈偶然而已哉？ 

      *西遊記 part 朱紫國唐僧論前世　孫行者施為三折肱

    三皇治世，五帝分倫。堯舜正位，禹湯安民。成周子眾，各立乾坤。倚強欺弱，分國稱君。邦君十八，分野邊塵。後成十二，宇宙安淳。因無車馬，卻又相吞。七雄爭勝，六國歸秦。天生魯沛，各懷不仁。江山屬漢，約法欽遵。漢歸司馬，晉又紛紜。南北十二，宋齊梁陳。列祖相繼，大隋紹真。賞花無道，塗炭多民。我王李氏，國號唐君。高祖晏駕，當今世民。河清海晏，大德寬仁。茲因長安城北，有個怪水龍神，刻減甘雨，應該損身。夜間託夢，告王救迍。王言准赦，早召賢臣。款留殿內，慢把棋輪。時當日午，那賢臣夢斬龍身。 

      *廣韻 Part 上平聲 Bab 支 Lineage 隨

    隨:隨：從也，順也，又姓風俗通云隋侯之後漢有博土隨何後漢有扶風隨蕃。旬爲切，三。隨:隋：國名本作隨。《左傳》云：漢東之國隨爲大漢初爲縣後魏爲郡又改爲州隋文帝去辵 

      *廣韻 part 上平聲 Domain 脂 Title 伊

    伊:伊：惟也，因也，侯也，亦水名又州本伊吾廬地在燉煌之北大磧之外秦末有之漢爲伊吾屯隋爲郡貞觀初慕化内附置伊州焉又姓伊尹之後今山陽人。於脂切，五。 

      *太平御覽,人事部五十六,《孝女》

    孝女: 《唐書》曰：劉寂妻夏侯氏，滑州胙城人，字碎金。父長云，為鹽城縣丞，因疾喪明。碎金遂求離其夫，以終侍養。經十五年，兼事后母，以至孝聞。及父卒，毀瘠殆不勝喪，被發徒跣，負土成墳，廬於墓側，每日一食，如此者積年。貞觀中，有制表其門閭，賜以粟帛。 又曰：于敏直妻張氏，營州都督、皖城公儉之女也。數歲時父母微有疾，即觀察顏色，不離左右，晝夜省侍，宛若成人。及稍成長，恭順彌甚。適延壽公于欽明子敏直。初聞儉有疾，便即號勇自傷，期於必死。儉卒后，凶問至，號哭一慟而絕。高宗下詔，賜物百段，仍令史官編錄之。 又曰：楊紹宗妻王氏，華州華陰人也。初年三歲，所生母亡，吻繼母鞠養。至年十五，父又征遼而沒。繼母尋亦卒。王乃收所生母及繼母尸柩，并立父形像，招魂遷葬訖，又廬於墓側，陪其祖母及父墳。永徽中，詔曰：「故楊紹宗妻王氏，因心為孝，率性成道。年迫桑榆，筋力衰謝。以往在隋朝，父沒遼左，招魂遷葬，負土成墳，又葬其祖父母等，竭此老年，親加板筑。痛結晨昏，哀感行路。永言志行，嘉尚良腎攏宜標其門閭，用旌敏德。」賜物三十段、粟五十碩。 又曰：孝女賈氏，濮州鄄城人也。始年十五，其父為宗人玄基所害。其弟強仁年幼，賈氏撫育之，誓以不嫁。及強仁成童，思共報復，乃候玄基殺之，取其心肝，以祭父墓。遣強仁自列於縣，有司斷以極刑。賈詣闕自陳己為，請代強仁死。高宗哀之，特制賈氏及強仁免罪，移其家於洛陽。 又曰：汴州李氏孝女，年八歲，父卒，柩殯在堂十餘載，每日哭泣無限。及年長，母欲嫁之，遂截發自誓，請在家終養。及喪母，號毀殆至滅性。家無丈夫，自營棺槨，州里欽其至孝，送葬者千餘人。葬畢，廬於墓側，蓬頭跣足，負土成墳，手植松柏數百株。季昶列上其狀，制特表其閭，賜以粟帛。 

      *《草木四》 Part 《叙牡丹》 Page 1

    牡丹花，世謂近有。盖以隋末文士集中。無牡丹謌詩。則楊子華有晝牡丹處極分明。子華北齊人，則知牡丹花亦已久矣。出尚書故實又謝康樂集。亦言竹間水際多牡丹。而隋朝種植法七十餘卷中。不說牡丹者，則隋朝花藥中所無也。出酉陽雜爼 

      *之 Part 葘

    夔：夔龍亦州名春秋時魚國漢爲魚復縣梁隋皆爲巴東郡唐初改爲信州又改爲夔州取夔國名之又獸名似牛一足無角其音如雷皮可以冒鼓。 

      *鬼三十五 Part 《浮梁張令》

    頃為隋朝權臣一奏。遂謫居此峯。爾何德於予，欲陷吾為寒山之叟乎。令哀祈愈切。仙官神色甚怒。俄有使者，齎一函而至，則金天王之書扎也。仙官覽書，笑曰。關節既到，難為不應。召使者反報，曰。莫又為上帝譴責否。乃啟玉函，書一通，焚香再拜以遣之。凡食頃。天符"符"原作"府"，據明鈔本改。乃降。其上署徹字。仙官復焚香再拜以啟之，云。張某棄背祖宗，竊假名位。不顧禮法。苟竊官榮。而又鄙僻多藏，詭詐無實。百里之任，已是叨居；千乘之富。今因苟得。令按罪已實。待戮餘魂。何為奏章，求延厥命。但以扶危拯溺者，大道所尚；紓刑宥過者，玄門是宗。狥爾一甿。我"我"原作"俄"，據明鈔本改。全弘化，希其悛惡，庶乃自新。貪生者量延五年。奏章者不能無"無"原作"書"，據明鈔本改。罪。仙官覽畢，謂令曰。大凡世人之壽。皆可致百歲。而以喜怒哀樂。汨沒心源。愛惡嗜欲，伐生之根。而又揚己之能，掩彼之長，顛倒方寸，頃刻萬變。神倦思怠，難全天和。如彼淡泉。汨於五味。欲致不壞。其可得乎。勉導歸途，無墮吾教。令拜辭。舉首已失所在。復尋舊路，稍覺平易。行十餘里。黃衫吏迎前而賀。令曰。將欲奉報，願知姓字。吏曰。吾姓鍾。生為宣城縣脚力。亡于華陰，遂為幽冥所錄。遞符之役，勞苦如舊。令曰。何以勉執事之困。曰。但酧金天王願曰。請置子為閽人，則吾飽神盤子矣。天符已違半日，難更淹留。便與執事別，入廟南柘林三五步而沒。是夕，張令駐車華陰，決東歸。計酬金天王願，所費數逾二萬，乃語其僕曰。二萬可以贍吾十舍之資糧矣，安可受祉于上帝，而私謁於土偶人乎。明旦，遂東至偃師，止于縣館。見黃衫舊吏，齎牒排闥而進，叱張令曰。何虛妄之若是。今禍至矣。由爾償三峯之願不果。俾吾答一飯之恩無始終。悒悒之懷，如痛毒螫。言訖，失所在。頃刻，張令有疾，留書遺妻子，未訖而終。出《纂異記》

    I don't care about any fiction made from the Later Sui II Empire.

    Please give me permission to make it or in exchange of that please help me make the article.ADHZ07111989 (talk) 16:08, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    As I already explained, those are sources about the original Sui empire, or about the Ming dynasty. User refuses to leave Tlön. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll wait for Nyttend to weigh in, but I smell a NOTHERE block coming a mile away. Drmies (talk) 16:16, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    ADHZ07111989 (talk) 16:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC) Dear sir/madam Please visit the ctext.org and see there at Song-Ming section it is not about era of legacy Sui it is about Later Sui II " http://ctext.org/song-ming " upsurp at the era. See about the text above.ADHZ07111989 (talk) 16:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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