Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Take a look at these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
Start a new discussion

Blocked in violation of policy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Dear administrators,

Recently, I found that a number of article about galaxies contained fanciful names invented, apparently, by an amateur astronomer from Belgium. These names have no legitimacy, no recognition and no place in any encyclopaedia article. So I began to remove them.

At 00:02 on 29 July, I made this edit. At 00:05, the edit was undone by User:Winhunter. At 00:06, they left me a message accusing me of vandalism [1], and at 00:07, they blocked me for 72 hours, claiming vandalism [2].

WP:VAND says "On Wikipedia, vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a free encyclopedia, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge." It later says "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism."

It is not possible to perceive my edits as vandalism. They were clearly not intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose. They were clearly a good faith effort to improve the encyclopaedia. Nor were they misguided, disruptive or wilfully against consensus. Indeed, they had been explicitly endorsed by a consensus [3]. So the block was obviously wrong.

The administrator who placed the block has made less than 200 edits since 2010. Approximately 30 of these were on 29 July this year, when they went on a spree to undo my edits. They broke sort ordering in a table that I'd fixed, replaced incorrect punctuation that I'd removed, and of course replaced nonsensical galaxy "names" in a series of astronomy articles.

The administrator was vaguely questioned about the block [4], but has not responded. Given their extraordinarily sparse editing history, it seems unlikely that they ever will. They have not edited since their spree of reverts ended in the small hours of 29 July. The block was obviously incorrect, and the failure of the administrator to explain or account for their actions seems to me to fall far below the standards you expect. So I raise it here for your awareness. I think that an administrator who barely edits in a decade and then places such an obviously wrong block is a problem. I hope that you agree. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 21:24, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

• I'm gonna have to agree with the IP here. The block, in my opinion, was unwarranted. In particular, what's more troubling is that the blocking admin clicked the block button after the second warning when it is normally after four warnings unless the user is only here to truly vandalize. The IP's edits were seriously not vandalism at all. And 72 hours is seriously harsh. All of the IP's edits were WP:BOLD. Also, to revert all of the IPs' edits was also really unnecessary unless you have good reason (e.g., sock). In terms of content, I agree with the IP. The source used to name NGC 523 comes from a blog and the names are not known per consensus at the WikiProject page. Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 21:48, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
• Agree. Someone needs to go back to admin school, and in the meantime needs to account for his/her actions. EEng 21:56, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Drmies, Anthony Bradbury, Berean Hunter, and Winhunter: Pinging the admins who made the blocks. — Maile (talk) 22:02, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
• Not to stir the shit, but I'm here to thoroughly agitate the fecal material. I just want to say that I'm not surprised an edit summary with the phrase "removed idiotic dithering and insults. just how stupid are you?" resulted in a block, though to be fair, there's something to be said for letting a recently blocked editor vent a little. But we have to give admins the same leeway we give other users; if an admin blocks after being called stupid and accused of "idiotic dithering" for trying to give good advice to someone, we should show said admin a bit of patience, too. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:10, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
  • That is a separate matter. I said that when my appeal against the block was treated with contempt and trolling, something I plan to discuss once we have established whether the block could have had any possible justification. I do not think shit stirring like this is helpful. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 22:16, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Also don't selectively quote me please. The edit summary continued it takes virtually no brainpower to distinguish between vandalism and my good edits, and to recognise that the block was an extreme violation of policy. but you don't even have that.. This was 36 hours after I had been blocked for no reason, and after two administrators refused to help. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 22:29, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that's how ANI works. We look at ALL of the aspects of the case, not just the ones you'd like us to look at. While I understand your frustration at the block, you need to understand that civility is required. Your best course of action would be to apologize for it, or at the very least make clear that you understand that it's not acceptable. Note, I am not saying Winhunter's block was valid, but you both have issues in this case that need to be addressed. --Tarage (talk) 22:22, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Taking a look at my block log, I'm of the mind that it's a lot more helpful than insulting an admin trying to help you. The fact that you're still calling that help "contempt and trolling" is probably not helpful, either. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:24, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

No admin was trying to help. What makes you claim that they were? 2.25.45.251 (talk) 22:29, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Berean Hunter was offering you advice, and has even indicated that they were sympathetic to your situation before you blanked your page with that insulting edit summary rant and caught a block extension for it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:32, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

That is simply not true. They did not offer any advice, nor indicate that they were sympathetic to my position. They stalled and refused to lift the clearly unjustified block, and said " I'll remove this from my watchlist and let another admin consider your case". 2.25.45.251 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:18, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

It is true as anyone can see in the diff I posted. If you feel like Berean Hunter wasn't helpful or sympathetic, then I suggest you try to wrangle your feelings into something based on the real world, and not on the assumption that everyone who doesn't immediately jump to your defense with guns blazing is actually out to get you. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:27, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• That was a poor initial block, and WH should respond the next time they log on. Unfortunately it may be a while, as WH doesn't appear to be very active. WH is responsible for the poor initial block, and the IP and other blocking admins and reverters share relative blame (by some formula I don't plan to come up with) for the ensuing flameout. Advice: Don't block too quickly, don't assume all IP's are vandals, don't react too aggressively, don't punish someone venting on their talk page, don't revert something you don't understand just because you see other people doing it. That said, I'd say this is something that Wikipedia is best known for.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:20, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh lord that opens another can of worms. I'm not going to touch that one. Regardless, this is yet another troubling instance of administrators going well beyond their bounds with seemingly no means for the community to enact corrections. I realize there is a pending case in arbitration for something similar, but I have little faith that it will result in anything but a 'this is a one time issue' statement. We need better. --Tarage (talk) 22:25, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Okay I agree with Floquenbeam here. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=A._K._Chesterton&diff=prev&oldid=791125842 is enough evidence that this is who we're dealing with. Someone needs to block ASAP. --Tarage (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I really do not understand what you're saying here. Was that edit a bad edit? It seems to be it was a good edit that improved the article. I think the previous was very jarring, using the present continuous tense when the guy's been dead for more than 40 years, and using five words where one would do. I think that any capable editor would wish to make the same or similar change. But you think I should be blocked for making this edit? 2.25.45.251 (talk) 08:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd also add the advice: don't insist on hearing from the blocking admin first, when that person typically shows up infrequently, especially when it becomes so obvious that the block was incorrect. All in all, I'd have been pretty livid too. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:32, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll just put this out there as well; an admin who (prior to reverting all of the IPs edits) had 19 edits to Wikipedia in 2017, two in 2016, and four in 2015. Black Kite (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

For sure, it was a bad block for the wrong reasons, but given the above, it needs to be reinstated. --Tarage (talk) 22:40, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I keep seeing new things to comment on. Assuming this is not who I think it is, then I really think the long 1RR restriction imposed as a condition for the current unblock is unfair. Not sure how an incorrect 3 day block morphs into a 3 month 1RR restriction in order to get unblocked. Perhaps if it was also applied to WH and to the people who automatically reverted the IP again - people who actually reverted incorrectly, unlike the IP - but somehow I don't think that's likely. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:41, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, I just restored the IP's edits in Contemporary Latin per WP:MADEUP and WP:SELFREFERENCE, which should have been pretty clear-cut. Like Floquenbeam, I'd be pretty pissed off if I were the IP, making good faith efforts. It's no excuse, but certainly a reason to fly off the handle. Kleuske (talk) 22:47, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I second Floquenbeam and Kleuske. All in all, it was a bad block from the first blocking admin. Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 22:52, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Agh - that's really not good either. Whether or not the IP editor is BKF (at this point it doesn't really matter), I think there are a number of things that a number of editors could learn from the whole situation. But it did all stem from the original bad block, from an admin (and I'll say it again) with 25 edits to Wikipedia in the last three years. Black Kite (talk) 22:54, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Black Kite, I agree completely. I wish we didn't have such a trigger-happy Recent changes patrol who are biased against IPs, and this block...yeah. I went back through the archives of my talk page: I have been in the middle of mindless reverts on the one hand and insults on the other hand since at least 2011. Drmies (talk) 02:12, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• Alright, first let's get a factor that could possibly conflate the analysis out of the way here: If you dig far enough back into the IP's contributions, you do begin to see a pattern of needlessly inflammatory language in edit summaries: [5]. That's something the user is going to want to address regardless of the outcome here.

That said, most of these comments are stale and none of them (as far as I can tell) were involved with the issues involved in the content dispute or the block. Certainly, no incivility issues were cited by the admin, as they should have been if they were contributing factors to the block. And that's just the tip of the iceberg with regard to this admin's inappropriate approach here. First off, they lept straight to a level three warning, assuming bad faith and perhaps forestalling otherwise productive discussion. Or at least, under normal circumstances it might have forestalled discussion, but Winunter doesn't seem to have cared for discussion regardless because, less than a minute later and for unexplained reasons, they changed their mind and blocked the IP altogether, without giving them a chance to process the warning and/or make a case for why their edits were not vandalism. And putting aside any possible, attenuated argument for how the IP's edits may have been disruptive in some form (and I don't think they were, in this instance) they clearly were not vandalsim. Even if said edit had been inappropriate (and they actually seem to align with our verification and sourcing policies, as well as consensus discussions on the matter), they were pretty clearly made in good faith to add permissible content, and thus not even in the remotest since WP:vandalism as the term applies on this project.

In short, Winhunter's behaviour here seems completely sloppy, if not outright WP:disruptive. And their failure to account for any of it is not particularly reassuring; far from being a context to assume that they may have legitimate reasons for having taken the actions that they did, the fact that they may once again have gone into dormancy is actually strong additional cause to consider stripping them of the bit. We simply can't have admins empowered with the block hammer who make highly questionable choices in how they implement it, without sufficient explanation, and then just disappear into the aether again immediately. Indeed, the particular details of this case raise the question of whether it is advisable to allow a user to maintain such tools at all, after such a prolonged period of inactivity. Admins need to be completely up-to-date on community guidelines, be reasonably well-practiced in how to implement them and be regular, recognizable, and constructive contributors to the project in general. I sense we are about to hear yet more complaints about how the community ought to be able to desysop without needing to appeal to ArbCom, for the second time in as many weeks; I'm neutral on that issue, but I will say that this instance makes a much stronger case than the one that can currently be found at the top of the page.

The one place where I will call out the IP is in their approach to that talk page discussion. Yes, they have cause to be frustrated here, but Drmies and other admins, having discovered the facts here, ultimately gave them a method to exit the mess and restore their full editing rights. All they were requested to do was repeat the unblock request (presumably for reasonable pro forma reasons) and instead chose to register their ire. That does raise the question of how they will cope with disputes or administrative matters in the future, I think. Nevertheless, I do think they deserve an apology for having been dropped into this mess in the first place. Snow ^{let's rap} 23:27, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree that imposing 1RR as a condition for unblock is unreasonable when there's enough blame to go around, and should be removed. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 00:20, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The whole behaviour and general gameplay of this editor is the likely cause of the grief. The first and second blocks were really justified by saying things like "Don't be stupid." [6] and "just how stupid are you? it takes virtually no brainpower to distinguish between vandalism and my good edits,..." [7] (then delete it all just to avoid scrutiny!]. Editors here are all volunteers and should not be subjected to such behaviour, and it avoids the trumping policy of all - WP:GF - good faith. The pattern seems to me easily construed as deliberately WP:disruptive.

I also responded to the various complaints of the reverts made by me here.[8]

NOTE: I do suspect this unregistered User might be just another sockpuppet of the now indefinitely blocked Tetraquark [9], who also deletes Talkpage information they don't like or even blocks, turn quickly highly combative at any even minor slight, also edits astronomical pages (especially towards images), and equally shows similar poor and rude behaviour. (For a non registered User, they seem to know an awful lot about Wikipedia policies. e.g. Quoting WP:IG) Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:42, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

No, he for sure is for sure the BKF vandal, which is why I am concerned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Long-term_abuse/Best_known_for_IP --Tarage (talk) 01:02, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Do either of you have any evidence to back up these suspicions? If not, WP:ASPERSIONS, if so WP:SPI. Kleuske (talk) 01:06, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I do. Check out his edit history where there are numerous removals of phrases like 'best known for' with edit summaries straight out of that LBA page. If you want actual diffs I'll post them later tonight. It's pretty obvious. --Tarage (talk) 01:12, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

In that case, WP:SPI is the correct place to post the diffs. Kleuske (talk) 01:16, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)That was my initial thought as well, Kleuske (see my comments immediately below). But now that Tarage has linked to that longterm abuse page for the editor in question, I daresay the case is pretty strong and more than satisfies the WP:DUCK test, based on the contributions I have looked at since coming upon this thread. Unfortunately, SPI is going to be of less use than usual, since the use rin question does not register and hops from IP to IP. I do, however, agree that SPI should be the next stop: a sanction can still be implmented there, even without a CU, based on behavioural evidence (which i think is strong in this case). Filing at SPI will also allow exploration of the socking issues to be disentangled from the inappropriate admin actions being discussed here. Plus an admin action is more likely to be prompt at SPI, especially in light of the fact that admins may be hesitant to be the latest to reverse this editors status after the back and forth of the last 24 hours, if they first dsicover the situation via this mess. Snow ^{let's rap} 01:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Fine, I'll leave it to you then. --Tarage (talk) 05:59, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I do not recall removing "phrases like 'best known for'", and struggle to see in any case why you would think that could be called vandalism. It's quite ironic on a thread about being blocked with a false accusation of vandalism though. If you can find an edit of mine that you think was deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, only then you can accuse me of vandalism. You will not find any such edits. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 08:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I am pretty confident that you never act with the explicit intention of obstructing or defeating the project's purpose, for what it's worth. However, I also suspect you may have a substantial and fundamental disconnect with the collaborative nature of this project. Snow ^{let's rap} 10:19, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Haha, pretty sneaky sis! But this isn't my rodeo! It's your theory, and though you have me more than half convinced after sharing that link, if you're really confident, you're going to have to propose the action yourself. Snow ^{let's rap} 09:37, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)That theory sounds like a matter for SPI. I will say that there is apparently a second line of speculation as to this user being someone else above (at least, there is reference to such positions, apparently drawn from another discussion that is not being linked to here). I will say that certain elements of this IP's behaviour and knowledge of process do suggest an experienced editor to me, but without more substantial editing, I am not willing to assume that they are anything other than what they claim to be: a moderately experienced non-registered user who ran afoul of particularly under-experienced admin and then lacked the patience to negotiate the situation as easily as they might have. And I suspect most community members here will feel the same, pending deeper evidence.

OhanaUnited, I initially shared your perspective and almost called on Drmies to reconsider repealing that restriction. Then I did a little more digging and saw the full context of how that came about. Bear in mind especially that Drmies' initial posts on that talk page were to validate the IP's position and call for all blocks and restrictions to be removed. Other admins/community members(both involved and uninvolved) then agreed, and the IP was asked to resubmit their unblock request, and was given back talk page access for that purpose. At this point the IP used that ability to speak their mind again to immediately balk and complain about the unfairness of having to take 15 minutes (at most, surely) to format that request. It was only at this point that Drmies changes their stance and implemented the 1RR restriction, while also removing the block. Even considering the frustrating and unfair context in which they were initially blocked, that was an impressive display of shooting themselves in their own foot. I'm not sure that 1rr is exactly the most targeted possible sanction here, given that edit warring does not seem to be their issue. But I suspect the intended preventative effect here was to make the editor think twice about acting impulsively when dealing with their fellow editors. Snow ^{let's rap} 01:09, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• I was pinged here as the blocking admin? I'm the unblocking admin, who disagreed to some extent with the initial block or at least the given block rationale; I'm the one who (with Anthony) broke a lance for the IP editor. I used to do that in the old days for some other editor whose name escapes me (though Floq might remember)...no, I can't come up with it now. Anyway, I imposed the 1R restriction because it seems to me that trouble starts when the IP gets reverted and then strikes back. Snow Rise, your comments are quite to the point and I appreciate them. If the community thinks that the restriction is too much, that's fine: overturn it. But do note that I have not reverted any of their edits, that I believe I have advocated for them (here and in a slew of messages on the ArbCom mail list, where this user posted with ever-increasing urgency, and that I offered assistance, saying that they could ping me if they got reverted. Mind you, I didn't even need for them to request to be unblocked again--I was just hoping they'd say something reasonable. User:OhanaUnited, in these circumstances, I don't think my restriction was unreasonable. At any rate, have at it, y'all--I did my bit by supporting the IP's initial case and unblocking them, and at the same time trying to protect all sides with a restriction that will require the IP editor to reflect and give them the opportunity to call in the cavalry--but I won't be surprised if this backfires spectacularly, given how the temperature seems to rise when this editor shows up, no matter how solid and positive their edits are. Please don't ping me anymore in this ANI thread: it's not a concern of mine. If the IP wants to ping me to point at some revert or other, my door is always open, of course. Drmies (talk) 02:09, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
  • But I wasn't blocked for reverting anything, or striking back after reverting. I was blocked for vandalism, when I had clearly done no such thing. I am glad to see that the consensus here seems to be quite strongly that the block was not valid. I am extremely heartened to see that someone suggested I deserved an apology for it. I am less heartened to see I'm accused of being various sockpuppets but whatever.
  • As for what I said when asked to make one more unblock request: what was the need for it? I'd been blocked for vandalism, blocked for being angry about that, and then blocked for no actual clear reason for *three months*. I'd followed all the appeals right up to mailing the arbitration committee, which was crazy given how obvious it was (confirmed here) that the original block was wrong. And then someone says "I'll unblock you, but only if you ask me to one more time." It seemed really pointless. I stand by that.
  • And as for editing restrictions, well I'm not likely to edit any articles for a while anyway. You'll notice I have not edited any articles since being unblocked. The whole experience of being blocked for "vandalism" when making perfectly good edits was extremely unpleasant, and doesn't particularly make me feel like fixing errors I find, far less refixing them when other people have unfixed them, having been accused of "disruption" when I did that before.
  • Anyway I have found this a very useful and interesting discussion. Thanks. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 08:14, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Saying "I was blocked for vandalism," is not entirely true. The first two instances you were plainly blocked for saying things like "Don't be stupid." [10] and "just how stupid are you? it takes virtually no brainpower to distinguish between vandalism and my good edits,..." [11]. You then multiplied the mistake by then delete it all just to avoid scrutiny!

I see these blocks as a reflection of your own poor aggressive behaviour and the utter contempt you exhibit to others (including me.) This is clearly the needed evidence of "disruptive editing." None of your excuses above at all addresses your own poor behaviour, and your near continuous inflicted 'insults' to other Users if they disagree with you. Wikipedia is for editors in collaborations not those acting like vigilantes. (Some wisdom: Showing an inkling of contrition here would help your cause considerably.) Arianewiki1 (talk) 09:21, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Regarding Wikipedia:Vandalism it plainly says: "On Wikipedia, vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose,..." The word 'behaviour' here is important, and hasn't been addressed by this IP User at all. Arianewiki1 (talk) 09:33, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

This editor accuses me of aggressive behaviour while aggressively undoing my reverts and slandering me, restoring to articles things that they themselves had described as "abhorrent" and (incorrectly) "vandalism", and responding aggressively when I asked them why they did that. They are yet to provide an answer. I do view them as a problem but that's really a separate discussion. 2.25.45.251 (talk) 09:39, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Go right ahead. You are falsely accusing me of something. You were blocked not just because of the edits but because of your behaviour. If someone reverts an edit once, twice or three times, right or wrong, you should attempt to seek consensus. You did not do this at all. Instead you started throwing insults. End of story. Get it. Arianewiki1 (talk) 11:30, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Arianewiki1, the IP was first blocked for supposedly vandalizing Wikipedia. Of all the three blocks, only one was regarding civility and NPA. The other was for disruptive editing. I don't know if you're insinuating that the IP was vandalizing, because that is entirely false. Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 16:03, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Hooo boy, if somebody filed an RfA like Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Winhunter 2 today, they'd get WP:SNOW opposed out of the door. How times change. Meanwhile, I have been in 2.25's shoes myself as I used to edit logged out at my local library for security reasons - see User talk:Ritchie333/Archive 45#The war on IPs continues, and I seem to recall I was pretty pissed off when I got hit with a two year block. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:17, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The first one is even more telling, but in both Winhunter expresses a very personal take on fighting vandalism, clearly identified as arising out of their frustration as non-sysop to be able to stop them more immediately and effectively. In fact, at every opportunity and before all other factors, they identify their reason for wanting tools to be the ability to rapidly block vandals. That's pretty telling under the present circumstances. It seems these days, in the few minutes they can spare the project every few years, the user now has no time for warnings or discussion before blocking on their vandal assumptions. Not withstanding the fact that I'm low on AGF for the IP, we do owe them for bring this to our attention and I think this matter should be referred to ArbCom, regardless of whether or not the IP gets boomerang blocked for socking. Snow ^{let's rap} 10:36, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• IMO this is why admins should need to earn their wings every year, and not just by making X admin actions; they can't just disappear for over a decade and then swoop in and do stupid $#it with the tools and get away with it. There needs to be a requirement that admins make at least X number of actual edits (not admin actions) every two years or they are de-sysopped. We've been skirting around this problem for way too long and I've seen way too many absentee admins do stupid stuff. Softlavender (talk) 10:51, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

That would help considering the other contributing factor of this issue: editors who became admins in the early days of Wikipedia, when the requirements for a RfA candidate were much lower. Cjhard (talk) 11:35, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't think I would survive a reconfirmation RfA, I've made too many enemies. I suspect if you tried to make it policy, the turkeys would gather round and prevent a vote (or a !vote) for Christmas, even though in principle it's a good idea. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:50, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know, I think those voting against a reconfirmation RfA based on nothing more than a personal grudge would be identified as doing so and would be discounted when establishing consensus, just as the case would be in regular RfCs. But you're not wrong that it would perhaps be more of an issue. That's something in favour of Softlavender's idea of an increased minimum standard of activity to maintain sysop status: it provides an objective standard, avoiding the axe-grinding issue completely. Cjhard (talk) 12:03, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I mentioned this possibility above, and though I can't recall having seen it anywhere before, I can't fathom that it has been suggested repeatedly over the years. It's definitely a more reasonable solution than recurrent RfA's in my opinion. That's just begs for disruption and bad blood from a completely needless airing of grievances, which the most disruptive editors will be most certain to turn out for. But a minimum standard of activity? That's completely called for. I'm surprised we don't have it, except to say that the community probably wasn't thinking in the longterm as we originated and perpetuated the process; only with time has the need become obvious. Seems like something that is ripe for VPP, if you ask me.Would need broad support from existing admins though, to survive the community process. Snow ^{let's rap} 12:25, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• SPI clerk comment - based on the IP's behaviour here and the non-CU technical evidence available to me, I can't reason a situation where this IP is any other than the Best Known For long-term abuser, who is banned by the community. If you want, compare in particular the IP's archived diatribe on their talk page with their comments in the linked ban discussion. While I respect that several admins here have taken it upon themselves to overturn what does appear to have been an inappropriate series of blocks, along with whatever's going on behind the veil of ArbCom, the community ban has been neither appealed nor overturned, and as such I have re-blocked the IP for 3 months to enforce the banning policy. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:19, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Ivan. --Tarage (talk) 21:30, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Admin acct

"That is simply not true. They did not offer any advice, nor indicate that they were sympathetic to my position. They stalled and refused to lift the clearly unjustified block, and said " I'll remove this from my watchlist and let another admin consider your case"." (link)

My responses show that is patently false and the fact that they cherry-picked a sentence from within a post that contains evidence that contradicts them is telling.

• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4

I would still like to hear from Winhunter regarding the IP's initial concern. Has anyone emailed him?

BKF will have an additional ax to grind with me. His employer contacted me last week and I supplied them with lots of details. They identified him. Different managerial levels are involved and he has received formal counseling that he is not to use their network to edit Wikipedia again to which he has agreed. They are interested in him being a "good neighbour" from here on and it is ironic that I had just written someone looking into the case an email reply detailing the standard offer, how he should contribute elsewhere for no less than six months with an account and that he would have to request a ban appeal from the community. They intend to monitor the situation. That said, since the IP hints at inappropriate admin actions on my part, I'll refrain from commenting further on a possible socking connection here.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:48, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• I've emailed Winhunter.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:53, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not certain that this is the user described in Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP (if he doesn't scream abuse at my sympathetic reply above, it isn't), but if it is, he is community banned and should not be editing Wikipedia at all. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:13, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I have to support Arianewiki1 above - Behaviorally, this really looks like TQ. Scr★pIron^IV 18:21, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

He's been blocked as a sock of BKF. --Tarage (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh fair enough. He'll be back on another IP soon enough. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 23:36, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Berean Hunter thanks for your email, apologies I was busy during the week so couldn't respond to this thread earlier. I do recognize I could have actioned the original block in a better way so thanks for everyone's feedback. Noticed the thread is now concluded though if anyone require additional information from myself please feel free to reach out. -WinHunter ^(talk) 05:10, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm reaching out. What does "I could have actioned the original block in a better way" mean? EEng 05:15, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm open to suggestion for improvement. At the time I saw the continuing removal of similar data across multiple pages for the same subject which made me feel he was a repeated vandal. I could have explained the reason of my block a bit better at the time of the block and also see if I could have used a more appropriate warning . -WinHunter ^(talk) 05:33, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Respectfully WinHunter, those responses are insufficient to address the questions being asked by the community members here. This thread is not in fact "concluded" and I dare say that it's an indication of your inexperience with this community in the decade since you became an admin that you don't realize that. The IP was banned for being a likely sock of a user banned for behavioural problems, but that doesn't let you off scott free for your involvement in this matter. You instituted a block for another user for vandalism, even though most every editor who has reviewed those edits agrees they are not WP:vandalism in any sense relevant to this community's guidelines. More seriously, you applied the block without any warning, discussion or effort at clarification with the user in question, (unless you count a level three template slapped to their talk page less than one full minute before you blocked them anyway). Then you immediately disappeared as the situation exploded, leaving other admins and the community to deal with the fallout of your actions while the user disruptively worked their way through every community process they knew of (both on the site and off), armed with a legitimate claim of admin abuse which only amped up their existing persecution complex and gave them an excuse to game the system.
  • I admit I am not an active Wikipedian, though I did not intend to "disappear" and when someone emailed me I immediately login over my iphone and tried to respond with my thinking at the time. I am not saying I did the right thing at the time and I do apologies for all the trouble as a result of that action, I was trying to explain my thought process and mentioned that I am open for suggestions for improvement. I am happy to review the latest policies again to refresh my knowledge and if the community still find next admin actions unsatisfactory I am more than happy to let the community to decide my future.--WinHunter ^(talk) 15:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

You say: "At the time I saw the continuing removal of similar data across multiple pages for the same subject which made me feel he was a repeated vandal." Well...why? Legitimate users remove content across multiple related articles as a matter of daily business here; that is not sufficient cause in even the remotest sense to use your privileges to block. You then go on to say "I could have explained the reason of my block a bit better at the time of the block and also see if I could have used a more appropriate warning." But the reality is that you didn't provide any explanation of your block, beyond the erroneous "vandal" in the block summary, nor did you provide any real warning or make any real effort to discuss the matter with the user that you decided (on apparently no hard evidence) was a vandal. You got lucky this time that your random block happened to be a banned user, but the community is now reasonably asking if your lack of involvement here over a long period of time makes you a problematic steward for our most significant (and thus potentially disruptive tools). Sorry to be so strident about it, but your answers are not particularly reassuring me, because they seem to indicate you don't know basic proceedure for our WP:BLOCKing policy. Snow ^{let's rap} 06:12, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• (ec)Winhunter, please go to Arbcom and hand in your admin tools. You are very lucky that the IP you blocked turns out to be a banned user, but the reason you blocked them was absolutely wrong. "the continuing removal of similar data across multiple pages for the same subject" is not vandalism if the editor is correct and the data needs removal. These kind of edits need discussion, not the admin hammer, and that you still defend your block indicates that you have not learned anything from this episode. Coupled with your almost complete lack of edits and admin actions for years and years now makes it clear that you are no longer to be trusted to act as admins should. Fram (talk) 06:15, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Agree with both of the above, in particular the call to resign. As I said on another thread, "We seem to have a mini-epidemic of editors in positions of trust who don't know which way is up, possibly due to limited experience editing articles and discussing with other editors." An admin with 3600 article edits and 350 article talk edits??? [12] And how does someone with that few (not-deleted) article edits accumulate 3300 deleted edits? Plus, he still doesn't doesn't seem to understand what he did wrong. EEng 14:58, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

The reason of the high delete count is I decided to volunteer over recent years to helpout on WP:CSD as I have more limited time after my day job, and I hope you would find most of those deletions uncontroversial (like user request for their own userpages / obvious advertising etc). As I responded to another editor above I am happy to learn from this experience and review the latest policies, and if my next admin actions is still unsatisfactory I am more than happy to let the community to decide on my future. --WinHunter ^(talk) 15:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

OK, that explains the deleted edits, but that leaves everything else. You still seem unable to enunciate what you did wrong in this case, which is _______________________________ (fill in the blank, please). EEng 16:57, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll do you one better. "The reason I need to be an admin is _____________________." --Tarage (talk) 19:30, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Winhunter, your failure to engage these concerns is extremely troubling. EEng 23:04, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

• Agree with Fram and EEng. As a fellow Hong Konger, I would also like to ask you to hand in your admin tools. Removing inaccurate contents is something everyone does, IP or registered. Your revert could be viewed as repeated insertion of "Introducing deliberate factual errors", which ironically is grounds for yourself being blocked. I also think everyone here agrees that the resignation of WinHunter's admin rights, if that happens is considered as done "under the cloud". OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 19:44, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: Kick to ArbCom with community recommendation

There is clear consensus from this discussion and the comments above and below that administrator Winhunter's recent block and failure to adequately respond to inquiry is a dereliction of administrative accountability. As neither the community nor its administrators are empowered to act in this situation, the community requests Arbcom's urgent response. (Amended close, original here.) Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:35, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It seems that WinHunter is either unable or unwilling to provide significant explanation or engagement regarding the substantial community concerns relating to the problematic way in which WinHunter has approached the use of their privileges--as well as other concerns regarding whether they have sufficient experience, perspective, and engagement in the project to be serving in an administrative capacity. At present, WinHunter seems to either be trying to ride out the scrutiny, or else the handful of brief and insufficient responses above represent the sum total of their ability and desire to explain actions which, consensus in this discussion seems to clearly hold, were deeply problematic (and if I can add my own impressions, indicative of a lack of even the most basic understanding of our blocking policies).

However, ultimately the removal of tools is ArbCom's purview, so I don't see what more is to be accomplished here. We could long-term block WinHunter, but that does not seem the most transparent way to address the root issue, nor do I think we should prevent the user from possibly returning to the project to contribute productively in other capacities (unlikely as that seems given the user's lack of activity over the years since getting the bit). I therefore propose that we resolve to open a report with ArbCom, but that the report be coupled with a link to this discussion and a strong community endorsement that ArbCom investigate the issues here (and, depending on the result of this poll, a strong recommendation to desysyop). I was hesitant at first to suggest such an approach on the basis of one major incident, but the responses above have been wholly insufficient to assuage my concerns as to whether the user is an appropriate steward of the ban hammer, and I don't think I'm the only one. Snow ^{let's rap} 01:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

• Addendum: Since WinHunter has said that they are willing to accept community consensus on their future role as an admin (without specifying a particular community process), we can also consider asking them to voluntarily relinquish their tools, if the poll suggests they should, thus saving some time in the process. If they are unwilling to part with the tools on the basis of the community consensus here, then we can proceed with the request for review by ArbCom, no harm done. Snow ^{let's rap} 01:40, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support (as nom). Snow ^{let's rap} 01:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support WinHunter clearly has no real need for the tools, and no good idea about how they should be used. Please voluntarily tyurn in the bit. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:08, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - I'll take a look over this and file a case if consensus supports it. Twitbookspacetube 02:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Like Snow said, wait and see if Winhunter has the courtesy to simply resign ("under a cloud", of course). EEng 03:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Considering their behaviour so far, I seriously doubt it. But I'll give it a week or so. Hopefully the knowledge that another ADMINACCT case is heading there should be enough to get something out of them. If their response is anything like what it took Arthur a couple of months to produce, i'll be filing the case anyway. Twitbookspacetube 05:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support per Snow and BMK. EEng 03:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support. And this should serve as a wake-up call for all admins that they can no longer dish out blocks with impunity if they cannot satisfactory justify their actions. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 04:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I do not concur with your sentiments. I do not believe that "all admins" need a "wake-up call", but that the vast majority of admins do a decent to very good job. They don't need or deserve to be lumped in with an egregious example such as this one. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:33, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, just to be clear, I wouldn't be making this proposal, but for the fact that the issues are particularly egregious; I can't ever recall seeing another pattern of facts surrounding the improper use of blocking privileges quite like this. There are occasional sloppy or involved blocks that stand to have some scrutiny, but the distinguishing factors here are this user's tangential involvement with the project, single-minded reasons for wanting to be an admin, and lack of basic familiarity with the relevant policies. If not for that highly specific combination of factors, I would not have made the proposal--and I I'm not sure that all three apply to so much as a single other active admin. None that I've come across, certainly. Snow ^{let's rap} 05:26, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: "Vast majority of admins do a decent to very good job". That part I agree. But within last 30 days alone, we have 2 admins, including this one, who failed to satisfactory justify their actions (the other being this case which I'm sure you're aware of its existence because you commented on it). And these are the only complaints that surfaced because the affected party knows where and how to complain. Think about how many newbie biting incidents that didn't get reported and this number would have gone up. Two in a month isn't something we should be proud about. At any rate, admins have to be accountable for their actions and that's a given when they decide to run for it. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 17:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Of course admins have to be accountable, and most of them do so willingly. As for 2 in a month - since there weren't 2 such last month or the month before, I'd say it's just random, the normal distribution of disconnected events, uncorrelated to the quality of our admin corps.

Look, I know there are some bad admins out there -- believe me, I've run into a few, and it's shocking simply because it's so rare. Most of the admins interactions I've had have been perfectly normal and justifiable, and if I'm being called to task, I've generally deserved it. We have 1,250 admins, over 500 of whom are active, and I'd be surprised if there were more than a couple of handfuls of bad ones, at the very most. So, I still think you're wrong about the necessity of a "wake-up call" to all admins. What we need is better procedures to get rid of the handful of bad apples, not swatting our admins en masse on their noses with a rolled up newspaper. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

That more or less sums up my position; the fact that we've had two public discussions about possible admin misconduct this month doesn't add up to me to say much about admins on the project in general. I find most act with restraint; indeed, if there is a problem these days, it's in getting an admin to act definitively on a pressing matter--but that's another discussion altogether. I certainly didn't intend this proposal to be a wake-up call for anyone; the facts are just particularly compelling that there is are basic competency/engagement problems, in the present case. Snow ^{let's rap} 08:39, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support. The user's inactivity, combined with their recent poor decision and poor response, suggests that they shouldn't be an admin. Perhaps this should serve as a lesson for us about having inactive admins. If you aren't a reasonably active contributor, you probably shouldn't be making administrative decisions. It's like any volunteer situation—while volunteer help is always welcome, you don't want some guy who only pops in a few times a year to be ordering other volunteers out of the building. Everyking (talk) 05:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support. The IP was first blocked for supposedly vandalizing Wikipedia. From the beginning, it was clear that this block was wrong, and wrongly done. And should have been reverted by the blocking admin, as soon as the consensus became clear on this matter. Perhaps (understatement) the IP has to be blocked for other reasons, by another admin. But it remains that WinHunter messed the situation... and failed to clean it. Don't keep the mop, if you don't understand what cleaning could mean. Pldx1 (talk) 16:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support on the stipulation that part of the case also be able the community's ability to restrict/revoke mops for behavior like this. --Tarage (talk) 01:37, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

ArbCom has no jurisdiction over the community's ability to desysop. The only non-ArbCom solution is to block the admin. 207.38.154.23 (talk) 01:09, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Then who does? --Tarage (talk) 01:52, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

The community itself. It would require a policy change, usually via RFC. ArbCom is not supposed to make policy, rather enact it. A community desysop procedure does not exist, although I share your opinion that it should. -- Begoon 02:50, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support as per BMK. Bentogoa (talk) 15:35, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
• Proceed with caution I can only assume the author of this proposal has never actually dealt with an Arbcom case; the part about "with a community recommendation" is almost cute. Joefromrandb (talk) 03:01, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Are you intending to attempt to sound as if you are talking down to somebody there, from a place of superior / more worldly perspective, simply because you have gripes about ArbCom? No, I've never been a party to an ArbCom case, and quite happy to be able to say that. But like any other member of this community who has been around as long as I have been, I'm hardly ignorant of how matters are handled/unfold there. Or of the passive-aggressive contempt that flows in their direction from some corners of the community, regardless of the context in which their name is invoked. In any event, as I see it, we don't really have an alternative course of action here. Only ArbCom is empowered to de-sysop, so this matter has to be handled through that channel;the best we can do is share a link to this discussion and a comment about how concerned the community is with this particular user having privileges.

If you have a better course of action to suggest, I'm all ears. But I don't see what your comment contributes, at least in terms of actual substance with regard to the proposal. At least, I don't understand what "proceed with caution" would mean in this context, as a response to the proposal. The worst that can happen is that they don't act, and we have to consider another sanction if this user proves problematic. Maybe I'm missing something, but it just looks like you're taking the opportunity to register your low regard for ArbCom, but without actually say whether the proposal should be endorsed or not, or providing some alternative course of action. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:31, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support per Snow Rise. Cjhard (talk) 04:22, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose based on eventual outcome. Don't want Wikipedia to become best known for feeding its own trolls. Trout to Winhunter is good enough for me. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 06:18, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment The fact that Winhunter continues to pretend he doesn't know anything's going on here should cement it for anyone still not convinced: he is absolutely not someone we want as an admin. EEng 02:13, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support. There also needs to be a clear reform of the way administrators have been able to retain and use their tools even in spite of vast inexperience and absences of nearly a decade or more. I've seen this problem arise several times in the past few years; it is insupportable and needs to be fixed with new and stringent activity & knowledge requirements for admins. (For example, while I find it understandable that an admin might be away from WP for a year, if one year stretches beyond more than two years of virtual absence, I personally think the tools need to be removed [pending a new RfA], even if they used the tools a few times in that period.) Softlavender (talk) 02:33, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think the problem is absence per se, rather that very long absence takes us back to the time when RfAs were more, um, promiscuous, shall we say. Admins minted back then who have been active most or all of the time since have stood the test of time, but cases such as this one don't have that experience to reassure us that they should ever have been admins in the first place. EEng 05:25, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

It's mainly the long absence, since most early-minted admins have either grown up with the project and have at least learned on the job (or they have been de-sysopped). Those who split for a decade soon after being sysopped have no clue what they are doing and no sense that they should learn, or be held accountable, or why. Softlavender (talk) 05:32, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I think we're saying the same thing. EEng 08:34, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Note that in light of the discussion below and my amendment to my close, I have emailed the Arbitration Committee to review this discussion in light of WP:LEVEL2. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:46, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Close discussion

• I think the close is inappropriate, and we should keep this thread open until we either hear from Winhunter or decide what to do as a community. EEng 20:09, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

To what end, though? We've already pretty clearly established that Winhunter isn't going to offer a satisfactory reply (it's been six days since the last one) and that nearly everyone who has commented here is, erm, uncomfortable with their status. The next steps are just as I said: either resign or Arbcom (or the third option that nobody really cares that much, which is not apparently the case). We can't force an administrator to resign, and we also can't force an administrator into a backdoor reconfirmation RfA which I fear this is turning into. I could file the Arbcom case on behalf of the discussion, but I'm not going to. There's the seeds here for a discussion about a community desysop process or revised activity requirements, for example, and I'd be pleased to see such a discussion, but this is both a bad venue and a bad frame for it, and a bad way to try to establish precedent. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 22:33, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Ivanector, respectfully, both your close and your response here suggest that you read neither my proposal nor the majority of responses to it thoroughly enough. I pretty clearly acknowledged that the community is not empowered to de-sysop Winhunter. Indeed, the very crux of the proposal is that we therefore forward the matter to ArbCom, which is one of the "alternatives" that you then propose in your close, despite the fact that this is exactly what the community members here are explicitly endorsing. Further, during the nine days this discussion has been open, no editor other than you yourself has so much as whispered the notion that we force this user to go through another RfA, and I don't think it was on anyone's mind until you mentioned it. That's a completely novel idea that has never been attempted before in the history of this community and I think we would have noticed if someone were suggesting it. It certainly was not remotely part of my proposal or hinted at in any response, so your concern that that this is "where this is headed" seems entirely unfounded.

I don't mind this being closed without a direct sanction (that was afterall, exactly what the proposal was suggesting) but I do think it is appropriate that the close reflects the community's strong condemnation of this misuse of tools; that could prove useful at ArbCom--minimally useful, I will grant you, but seeing as the use of such wording was basically the exact purpose of the proposal that was endorsed by the community here (as you say, anyone could have taken this to ArbCom at any time) and given that the !vote was a WP:SNOW result, I feel like your close missed the point of both the discussion and the community consensus, and unintentionally whitewashes the community's deep concern out of the close, which is supposed to be a summary of that consensus. Snow ^{let's rap} 00:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

There is an option the community can enact: an indefinite block. Indefinite blocks have been used when someone disappears to avoid scrutiny. If WinHunter decides to reappear and provide accountability, the community can decide whether to proceed with an ArbCom desysop request. If not, the bit will expire due to inactivity and I can't imagine the bureaucrats returning the bit to a user who lost it while blocked. 207.38.154.23 (talk) 00:28, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Tools do not, from the best of my knowledge anyway, expire after a period of inactivity. But if they did, I am certain the strategy you suggest above would have been employed a time or two here. Probably with some degree of contentiousness though, as it would be sure to be seen by some as a backdoor desysop in violation of ArbCom's present sphere of authority. It would still be niece of admins could time themselves out in that respect, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no need to see a crat about restoring full tool functionality after a long absence. Snow ^{let's rap} 00:38, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

WP:INACTIVITY 207.38.154.23 (talk) 01:51, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Huh. Thanks for that. Even so, I think that blocking an admin just for the sack of forcing their tools to be taken away through a technical/procedural process, would be viewed as an inappropriate manipulation of the process by too much of the community--even editors who might otherwise support that same user being desysopped by a community vote (if that were an option). Under the present circumstances, I continue to think that ArbCom is the appropriate venue here, under current policy. though, notably, a lot of the community at late seems to be considering the notion of whether the removal of tools should be something that can be mandated by a community vote. I'm kind of inbetween on that notion myself, but regardless, ArbCom is our only option if we want to be perfectly transparent about what we are trying to achieve. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:25, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Snow Rise, I appreciate your proposal and did read it before closing anything here, along with everyone's commentary, but I think the conversation is misguided. The (only) procedures for removing advanced permissions from an account are via Arbcom; this exact situation (an administrator makes poorly judged actions and fails to respond) is covered by WP:LEVEL2, which is a procedure which does not take into account an endorsement by the community at all. All that is likely to be accomplished here is delay, which works well against arbitrators seeing a situation as requiring serious intervention. And as I've said, I'm concerned that proceeding with this discussion allows the establishment of a half-baked precedent for community-directed rights removal, which is a discussion which needs to be more carefully considered than what we can do here right now. I don't think for a second that your proposal is in bad faith of course, but I do think you should get on with the LEVEL2 process sooner rather than later. Out of respect for the discussion to this point, I'll rework my close. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:28, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Ivan, I appreciate your taking the time for both the response and the subtle amendment to the close. I am in full agreement that a broader discussion about what the do about de-sysop procedures ought to take a place in isolation to any one particular case of alleged misconduct. I also agree that any such discussion ought to take place in a more contemplative and carefully organized (rather than reactionary and ad hoc) fashion--and by necessity in a broader community forum than ANI. Frankly, I did not expect that multiple people would see the proposal as as a jumping off point for a broader community discussion on the state of ArbCom's sole remit on that role, but I guess I should have factored in the tension that has existed on this page on the topic, just recently. Personally, I have very much mixed feelings about whether or not sharing that role with the broader community would be a wise policy change, but given the atmosphere of late, I suspect it's just a matter of time before someone starts to seriously agitate for it. Snow ^{let's rap} 09:45, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Replace negativity-focused wikipedia compliance process with the positivity-focused wikipedia compliance process: I stumbled upon here while reading how wikipedia works. I start with an apology and self-declaration. I am not very experienced. I am not an admin. I do not even know if I am allowed to comment here, or if I am qualified enough that would make my comments permissible in your judgement. Apologies if I am trespassing or intruding in the unallowable territory. This is amazing how much time is spent and how many people get involved in disputes, blocks and revokes. I wish wikipedia was a nicer place to be. While clicking through wiki article links posted by others above, I came across Removing administrator rights which says if an admin has not made any edits in a year then revoke their admin rights. About the revoking the ban, if someone is so passionate enough to rejoin, let them come back specially if the sufficient time has passed. If he has not apologized, then may be he is too scared to apologize if he feels it might be held against him. Assure him that he needs to come clean, pour his heart out and it wont be held against him, etc. I think block is like imprisonment. If there is repeated imprisonment, without rehab, detox and counseling, then it may not cure the objectionable behavior. Better way to retain the passionate but "frustrated abusers" is by having a formal wikipedia mechanism to put the person through "mentoring", "onboarding", "shadowing the experienced editor" and "positive counseling" (not just negative warning and blocks/jail) and "community service" (get them to assists others making same mistakes, learn by teaching) and so on. Wikipedia's way of keeping vandalism and bad behavior out purely seems to be based on bombarding each other with warnings and blocks, no loving compassionate counseling. Those who are more experienced in playing this negative behavior, while being pleasant to their powerful colleagues, seem to win. Everybody else either has to be submissive and be corrupted by this negative-way of being successful and become part of this rot, or be thrown out (experienced ones can smartly frustrate newer ones into lashing out) or quit to retain their peace. Wikipedia principals are good, guidelines are nice but confusing and useful only for the experienced wikipedia power-players (at least publish an order of priority of wiki guidelines e.g. use consensus before using BRD, use gentle explaining before issuign warning, do not use warning unless you have mentored the person, and so on), processes are efficient but bad because they seem to "encourage narcissist behavior" (warn warn and warn at the slightest pretext, provoke them smartly into lashing out and play victim of attack and block), system is designed this way that only narcissists 9who are smart enough to pleasantly disguise it) stay, survive, thrive and rise. I remember reading in some guideline that calling some one narcissist is basis of ban, I am not attacking or calling any individual narcissist. Apologies, if I spoke too much. I only intend to draw your attention, and I beg you please can we do something to change this system. You have more experience, power, leverage, network to make this change happen e.g. do not warn but mentor, use positive reinforcement, ban or restrict negative behavioral modification tools/processes (currently they are excessive). Apologies too if that mechanism already exists. If it does not exist, then I assume all or most of you above are admins or very experienced editors. I request you to please take it up to set up this kind of positive onboarding and positive behavioral modification process. About these two guys, give them both "loving compassionate chance with proper counseling". Though the admin might have broken rules by not being active for a year, inform him that if he does not regularly use his account then his admin rights will be revoked, inform him in a pleasant way, not in the usual wikipedia bossy-warning-bully way. Same for the blocked guy, put him through some counseling under the wings of one of the designated experienced kind-hearted patient non-preachy non-bossy volunteer admin to learn the ropes for 3 months. Please include all. Let us not kick, jail, kill anyone. Conquer them with love. Let me know too if I am disturbing in not-allowable forum, and i will shut up. Thanks for reading, for your patience and kind consideration. 222.165.9.81 (talk) 18:42, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

PS, Just noticed, while I was typing my comment, the discussion has moved on and case closed. Apologies for my comment above (submitted almost simultaneously with closure verdict). Thanks for the understanding. I am just a reader-learner. 222.165.9.81 (talk) 18:47, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Triple-Two, first off, welcome to the project. To answer some of your inquiries: You are permitted to post in this space; any user is allowed to, permitted they are participating productively in a discussion, abiding by our general community guidelines, and just generally not acting in WP:disruptive fashion. That said, in this particular space, it's usually best to keep your comments more focused upon the specific issues being explored here rather than making more generalized and prolonged arguments about the manner in which the project operates. However, there are a bevy of other spaces where this kind of discussion does take place: you may be interested (as starting points) in spaces like WP:WikiProject Editor Retention and WP:Village Pump; to adress other issues with a learnign curve that you note, the Wikipeida directory, editor's index, the help page, and the Teahouse, (a space for mentoring newcomers) may all prove useful to you.

At the core of your commentary is a laudable notion that new members of this community ought to be welcome into it with warmth, gratitude and encouragement. I think you will find that this vision is shared more in common with your fellow Wikipedians (especially amongst long-term consistent contributors) than you seem to be assuming. There are many spaces which address the issues through the type of lens you seem to be encouraging; we have numerous WP:MEDIATION and WP:DISPUTE RESOLUTION processes that editors can avail themselves of, as well as multiple mechanisms to solicit impartial additional views on editorial issues--you are correct that are not highly visible to newcomers, lost amongst the deep mechanics of the community processes here, which take time and familiarity to parse through. Sadly, while there is always room for improvement, I think that the complexity is partly just an inherent result of the scale and complexity of this project, and not merely the result of poor priorities or design by this community.

In the same vein, I think you are perhaps assuming too much about the motives and perspectives of the admins and community members who work with the processes involving blocks and sanctions. Keep in mind that this space is specifically reserved for persistent or serious issues, so of course one sees a high level of contention. There are countless thousands of little collisions on the project on any given day that are handled with tact and mutual respect and encouragement and never arrive here or an an admin's talk page. The strong lines sometimes drawn here by the community also don't mean that experienced editors here lack sympathy for new contributors. You will find that most discussions end with an assumption of WP:ROPE or even more positive outcomes. And when it doesn't go that way, it isn't because the community wishes to punish someone, but rather because we want to prevent further disruption. Take the present case: you suggest that we should give a warning to this admin that they cannot do as they did, and then let the matter go at that. But I'm afraid you don't seem to fully understand the issues here. Having admin tools is a major responsibility here, and those privileges can only be used in ways that are, by design of community consensus, highly constrained. The admin in the present case, who has been long absent from the project and got his tools at a much earlier time in this project's development, has shown highly questionable judgement in the use of those tools and then has compounded this by being almost completely unresponsive the community's concerns, and seeming to have an insufficiently clear understanding of what the problems with their conduct are. The community has to look into such issues, but it's not a punitive inquiry in any sense: notice that the discussion is focused on the loss of the problematic tools, and not a block or any other such sanction.

All of that said, I hope you continue to embrace a compassionate and sympathetic approach to your interactions on the project, should you stay with us. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:56, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Ivanvector and Snow Rise: Other arbitrators haven't weighed in on this, but I'd recommend that the best way forward here is that someone submits a case request. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:14, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I believe Twitbookspacetube previously expressed a willingness to attend to that, if further sufficient engagement from Winhunter was not forthcoming. I'm a less than ideal choice, given my availability over the next couple of weeks, but if Twitbookspacetube has reconsidered and no one else is available--or if someone feels strongly that I'm the most appropriate person, having made the initial proposal-- I'll try to find the time for a bare bones filing. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:11, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm a bit busy at this precise moment, but I'll take a look through this quagmire and put something together. Twitbookspacetube 04:29, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Attack page?

Would User:Morty C-137/SPI-Case be considered an attack page? I was under the impression that accusations of sockpuppetry should be confined to WP:SPI.

Recent reports regarding Morty C-137:

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive956#Morty C-137: Battleground attitude, personal attacks and edit warring.

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive343#User:Morty C-137 and User:Rjensen reported by User:Cjhard (Result: Warned)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive342#User:Pepe.is.great and User:Morty C-137 reported by User:KDS4444 (Result: Warned)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive953#Morty C-137

--Guy Macon (talk) 18:31, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

This discussion has already been had by administators and answered, and I consider Guy Macon's filing here to be in obvious bad faith. Morty C-137 (talk) 18:36, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

@Morty C-137: Where did this admin discussion occur? --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:45, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I have been attacked over and over [13] and I have every right to keep records given that we are "required to give evidence". Morty C-137 (talk) 18:50, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

That's not what I asked. Where has an admin told you this page is OK? This page has been up for over a month with no SPI case filed. We can't keep pages like this around, per WP:POLEMIC. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:52, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I just linked a diff for you above. Take it up with them. Morty C-137 (talk) 18:54, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Since Morty's decide to revert the blanking, I've deleted the page per WP:POLEMIC. These type of pages cannot be left around for long periods of time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:55, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, that proves this whole listing is in bad faith, since you gave me no actual chance to save the material offline and you're ignoring policy. Morty C-137 (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I've undeleted for 10 minutes so you can copy everything. Then it's getting deleted again. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Well I'm lucky I saw that at the 9th minute, such a "generous" amount of time. What a load of harassing crap. Morty C-137 (talk) 19:06, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

May I interject here? Morty C-137 none of those users nor an admin EVER said that you could do that. Dinah In Wonderland 19:18, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Seconding this. It's possible Morty linked to the wrong diff, of course. If you're collecting evidence in this manner, it's best to do it off wiki. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 19:48, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Two things here. A quick look through Cjhard's (very short) edit summary:

1. It screams "sock puppet" of the sleeper kind. The account has only approx. 815 edits but extensive knowledge not only of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines but it's internal politics, feuds, obscure cases and ANI reports (examples [14]. It made 16 edits in 2007, 8 edits in 2008, 4 edits in 2009, 4 in 2011, 3 in 2012 and then... it "woke up" and exploded with several hundred edits starting in May of this year. And a lot of these involve following and reverting Morty around - there's no freakin' way this is a legit account.
2. It's immediately obvious that the account HAS in fact been following and harassing Morty.

It's hard to tell who the sock master here is but at least this account looks like one of the socks of the same person.

I can easily see why Morty is frustrated here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:54, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

If you want to accuse me of being a sockpuppet, do it at SPI. Doing it here, incorrectly, without evidence, and without having the courtesy of pinging me in a conversation I hadn't already been made aware of, is an unacceptable personal attack. Honestly, I'm getting tired of it from Morty, and my tolerance for it is waning. Cjhard (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Better yet, provide your input to the SPI case Morty finally opened: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Cjhard. Cjhard (talk) 21:39, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

If User:Morty C-137 doesn't understand why his behavior (both in maintaining a page full of un-substantiated attacks on wiki, and his recent contributions at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard) is problematic, administrative action against him should be considered. Power~enwiki (talk) 20:15, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

AFAICT there's no "problematic" behavior at RN/B, which, incidentally, is not a discussion you yourself participated in. As far as I can tell.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I've commented on it now, though I'm not sure what your remark regarding my lack of participation is supposed to imply. I hope that, after the fourth invocation of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, he will let the discussion die on its own; it hasn't been about "Reliable Sources" for quite some time. That said, it's not actionable; as the SPI case is filed and the attack page is blanked, hopefully an admin can close this soon. Power~enwiki (talk) 00:50, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• (copy of recent post to WP:REFUND): This page is covered both by WP:POLEMIC (a policy), and WP:CSD#G10 (a speedy deletion criterion that references WP:ATP, a slightly different but essentially similar policy page). I referenced the first policy in the deletion log, kind of assuming the link to G10 was clear, but if that's too lazy and if it helps in dotting the i's and crossing the t's, consider it deleted per WP:CSD#G10. We generally haven't considered short-term compilation of evidence an attack page, but they aren't allowed to linger in user space for a long time; in this case over a month, plus a week since its undeletion. From WP:ATP: "keeping a "list of enemies" or "list of everything bad user:XXX did" on your user space is neither constructive nor appropriate". If it's going to take a long time to compile evidence, that should be done offline. Morty now has this material offline if he chooses to use it. If an admin thinks WP:POLEMIC/WP:CSD#G10/WP:ATP doesn't apply here, they can certainly undelete (I'll say as much at ANI in a moment). Or ditto if Morty wants to take it to WP:DELREV instead. But it pretty clearly qualifies to me. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 10 August 2017 (UTC) (end of copy)

I'm not preventing Morty from continuing to compile evidence, I'm not preventing him from filing an SPI, I'm not claiming Sjhard is or isn't a sock, and I'm not Morty's enemies' newest buddy. But my experience has been that we enforce WP:POLEMIC/WP:CSD#G10/WP:ATP like this all the time. I even tried to blank it instead of delete it, and was immediately reverted. Again, if any admin thinks undeletion is warranted and WP:POLEMIC/WP:CSD#G10/WP:ATP doesn't apply, please feel free to undelete. Now I've been told I'm a stuck up jerk, that I'm someone's pet admin, and that I am intentionally harassing Morty, and I still temporarily undeleted the page for Monty to copy the contents, and I've explained myself sufficiently to satisfy WP:ADMINACCT. I've had more than enough, so I'm disengaging now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:59, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree. Whether the page in question should be deleted or not is subject to the usual administrative rules and guidelines (though I've seen other people do similar, just in a but less transparent way and get away with it). My point rather is that Morty's action were understandable and importantly, that this ANI report is completely pointless.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:08, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Floquenbeam, I apologize for the jerk comment. That being said, I am frustrated because (a) the last person to blank that page was a freaking sockpuppet of a stalker and (b) you didn't explain ANYTHING of your blanking, followed by just up and deleting it when I reverted and tried to add the newest sockpuppet to the list. How the hell was I supposed to know what you were up to when you were too lazy to give an explanation? Morty C-137 (talk) 21:10, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Could be a sock puppet. Nothing has been proven yet. --Tarage (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I learned today that this user filed a false allegation of sockpuppetry against me. It's certainly "Not Here" behavior. It needs to be stopped either on its own or by a hasty door showing. The attack page is a symptom of the problem. --DHeyward (talk) 04:33, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

There's no shortage of symptoms; the repeated assumption/leap to accuse other users above (including intervening admins) of "harassment" demonstrates A) a pretty profound lack of understanding of basic process (which can always be remedied with experience) and B) a more fundamental sense of persecution and refusal to WP:AGF (which is more problematic). We already see enough users show up here on a revolving door basis who are convinced that any time their wishes are thwarted or their behaviour questioned, it is a form of harassment. Best to disabuse this notion early, before it progresses to the conspiracy theory stage and truly disruptive discussions that usually follow. Snow ^{let's rap} 11:18, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Dheyward ran right in after someone was blocked. The Clerk on the case admitted "I can see why it looks suspicious." But hey, go ahead and roundly misrepresent everything. Morty C-137 (talk) 12:31, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

There are two sets of sockpuppets attacking Morty. The earliest one is at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/D.H.110/Archive A second set is at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/D.Pearson/Archive. I'll quote Bbb23, who is sadly now inactive here: " I can see the confusion because of the usernames, all the pepes and earsons, but they are separate masters editing from different continents and using different other technical data. I don't know why this person is mimicking the other.-" That is my finding also. Two different continents but the later one is mimicking the earlier. I have my own thoughts on this but need to ponder on the evidence a bit longer. Doug Weller talk 13:27, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Holy mother of WP:IDHT; you really need to stop assuming (and vocally asserting) that everyone who questions you is out to get you, and listen to what the experienced admins and users here are trying to tell you. A few things relating to your last couple of posts:

A) I wasn't commenting on Dheyward's assertions, but rather pointing to your behaviour above of attacking every administrator who takes action to keep you from trampling on policy. I don't see how I am "roundly misrepresenting" anything by pointing out that this is an incredibly self-defeating strategy.

B) You have so selectively quoted mz7's comments in the SPI that you opened against DHeyward (and mischaracterized their role in the SPI) so as to have essentially reversed the conclusion they came to. Here's the full quote, with the context you omitted: "I am not an SPI clerk, but for what it's worth, I agree that the reverts alone are insufficient evidence. I can see why it looks suspicious, but DHeyward is a longstanding editor (created in 2005), and the Doorzki account is not exactly new either (created in 2012). If these were single-purpose accounts with no other edits besides these reverts, we would probably call it a WP:DUCK. However, that's not the case here: both editors have coexisted for a while now without drawing suspicion of sockpuppetry. Given this, I would need to see more evidence of interaction between these accounts or other idiosyncratic behavior (e.g. similar writing style/editing philosophies) before blocking or even recommending CheckUser in this case."

C) Your latest SPI is an absolute nightmare of disorganized non-cogent accusations and non-contexualized links. Moreover, you clearly knew what you were adding to that page, because this was your edit summary for your second edit: "Fuck it. I was trying to get my head wrapped round it and was going to start paring things down and reformatting, but since I got harassed today and told "use it or lose it", it's up. Have fun, whoever.". Uhh, no. That's not how this works. If you want the community to take your accusations seriously, the responsibility is on you to make the argument in a structured and intelligible fashion. It is not the community's responsibility to go digging through that mess of gibberish to make heads or tales of which of the dozens of editors you accuse might actually be a sock, just because you still wanted to open another SPI but you were also angry and wanted to make a statement about your attack page being closed.

You need to take a pause for the cause here, because at ANI we look at the behaviour of all involved parties, even once we've established that one of them is problematic. It will do you no good at all to identify a sock who may or may not be harassing you if, in the course of trying to make your case, you demonstrate a profound inability to contribute to the project yourself without accusing every good-faith contributor and admin you come across of being in on the harassment, and just generally demonstrating a highly WP:disruptive attitude. Snow ^{let's rap} 13:56, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Related: Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion#User:Morty_C-137/SPI-Case (2nd request). --Guy Macon (talk) 17:57, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Really, this user has been here for 4 months[15] and he has an enemies and sock accusation list. Not since Psycho in the movie Stripes has someone created a death list so quickly. It's hardly the type of activity new users find themselves embroiled in and arguing about. It's about time to call this one as an obviously returning editor. --DHeyward (talk) 23:10, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Considering his SPI against Cjhard is failing(unsurprisingly), I think we need to start limiting the amount of accusations Morty is allowed to toss around. Yes, it is unfortunate that he has been the target of two sock puppet editors, but that is no excuse for slinging accusations at everyone and hoping some stick. --Tarage (talk) 00:12, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the SPI is as much as done; the CU found no relationship between Cjhard and any of the other editors. I'm actually pretty shocked jpgordon decided to run a CU in that situation at all, but perhaps they recognized it may prove necessary to refer back to that SPI as fruitless. In light of the polemic/attack page, the recurrent fruitless SPIs, the constant assumption of bad faith and unsubstantiated claims of harassment (particularly the accusations against Guy Macon and Floquenbeam above), and just the generally WP:battleground and WP:disruptive attitude this user is bringing into every space they enter into, I'm fully prepared to support restrictions of some sort--a topic ban from SPI in particular. Frankly, at this point, it's beginning to feel less like IDHT and more like "I will never hear that", but the smallest targeted restrictions should be considered first. I definitely think something needs to be done though; this is a whole lot of drama for the community to have to contend with to indulge for a user who has been around for four months and spends half of their time grinding axes; harassment from socks gets one a certain amount of sympathy, but this user is primed to see foes no matter the circumstances. Morty either needs to learn what is an acceptable claim of harassment or, as has been suggested above, he will have to be shown the door. Snow ^{let's rap} 01:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

English Wikipedia has a history of sanctioning editors when they respond poorly to harassment. Some of this is unavoidable, but I still think we need to come up with a better approach. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I fail to see how responding poorly to harassment by another editor gives Morty C-137 a free pass to abuse multiple editors who had no part in any harassment.[16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26] Morty C-137, given the wide variety of editors who you have accused of harassing you and acting in bad faith, could it be possible that the problem is you?

There once was a drunk driver who was driving the wrong way on the freeway. Upon hearing on the radio (over the honking horns) that there was a drunk driver who was driving the wrong way on the freeway, he peered through his windshield, noticed all of the headlights heading toward him, and exclaimed "My God! There are DOZENS of them!!" --Guy Macon (talk) 09:19, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Guy Macon presents a heck of a Gish Gallop, but none of those diffs show what he is saying, with the exception of one edit that I've already apologized for. Morty C-137 (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Respectfully NRP, multiple admins have attempted to approach this user with kids gloves only to be told to stop "harassing" him. I wasn't suggesting a block, but rather trying to isolate them from areas they don't seem yet competent to handle--areas in which they are currently sinking a lot of time into, and which are the nexus of all of the issues they are having with just about everyone they seem to be interacting with on the project now.

The smallest and most targeted sanction I could think of is a topic ban from SPI complaints, appeal-able in a few months once they have enough experience to know what really looks like suspicious activity, under this community's standards--not just the criteria of anyone who disagrees with them ever, on any article. Though, if I'm frank, it's the refusal to AGF / general hostility to anyone thwarting their will that is the real problem. If you think you can reach them, short of that sort of thing becoming a necessity, by all means have at it. But I'll direct you to the above, and this user's talk page, where numerous notably patient admins and veteran community members have tried. Snow ^{let's rap} 09:35, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. Whilst dealing with true harassment is something we need to do much better, dealing with tactical (or misguided) cries of harassment based on a simple disagreement or failure to gain consensus is something we do poorly too. CRYHARASS can be similar to CRYBLP: a diversion from the underlying issue by appeal to the authority of an inapplicable generality which deliberately invokes strong reactions. Both of these are gaming tactics, and, historically, we've not dealt particularly well with that, either. NRP makes a good point, but, as you say, the issues are wide and nuanced. -- Begoon 10:00, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I think what’s clear is that since his block Morty C-137’s conduct hasn’t improved since his first block. His behaviour on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard is a great example of his personal attacks, tendentiousness and battlefield behaviour continuing unabated. His presence is almost inevitably disruptive in any political topic he engages with and his temperament appears to be inherently compatible with a collaborative project like Wikipedia. A series of increasingly long bans ending in retirement or an indefinite ban appears inevitable. However, Morty’s work on articles related to Rick and Morty suggests that he is able to contribute to the project positively in areas which require less collaboration and are less politically charged. The optimist in me would suggest that a topic ban on all political topics along with a sanction against making any personal attacks (specifically accusations of wrongdoing without evidence and/or outside the proper channels) might prevent his negative behaviour while retaining him as an editor. Cjhard (talk) 09:45, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I suggest a short block for incivility and not assuming good faith, followed by longer and longer blocks until he either gets the point or is blocked indefinitely. His behavior has completely disrupted what would have otherwise been a calm, rational discussion on RSNB about whether a particular source, previously reliable, has become unreliable. This is interfering with the operation of the encyclopedia. I am agnostic on the politics topic ban, not having examined his behavior in that area. --Guy Macon (talk)09:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd argue his behaviour on RSNB is an example of his behaviour in the politics topic, given the nature of the sources discussed and what they're being used for. Cjhard (talk) 10:03, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd argue that, as a party, jumping on some sort of perceived bandwagon might not be the best thing for you to do here. Despite the very poor SPI, people may still have questions. Your last couple of posts have not helped to convince me that you don't deserve deep scrutiny, yourself. -- Begoon 12:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

What does that have to do with Morty's disruptive behavior and personal attacks? A Morty-free encyclopedia has a lot less drama overhead. Threatening his victims doesn't solve the problem. --DHeyward (talk) 14:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

DARVO. Those who have been through abusive situations recognize this sort of behavior when someone tries it on them. I've done nothing to warrant the torrent of abuse you've heaped on me, I legitimately saw something weird in a pattern of edits and reported it. You've been page hopping for the past couple days insulting me and trying to get me "banned" while calling me things like "ban-boy" and it needs to stop. Morty C-137 (talk) 15:53, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

No Morty. I've followed you to admin pages where you are abusing other editors including me. It needs to stop. Your behavior is deplorable and your accusations lack merit. I've not sought you out or even knew you existed until someone pointed out your merit-less SPI accusation in an apparent attempt to get me sanctioned and I learned that I was one of many. I have done nothing but point at your poor behavior. It's incompatible with Wikipedia. I have not started any ANI/SPI/3RR or any other process against you but that seems to be your sole contributions as there are at least 4 open ones about you. Your familiarity with these avenues, your long list of "bad users" and attitude suggest this isn't your first rodeo. I personally find that those that see sockpuppets at every turn are often the worse sock puppeteers and is why they think a torrent of socks are out to get them. --DHeyward (talk) 16:36, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

It would appear that DHeyward has now begun stalking my edits and reverting me wherever he can find me, in an attempt to get me angry. [27][28] [29] Morty C-137 (talk) 18:15, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

"Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?"[30] --Monty Python and the Holy Grail

According to WP:WIKIHOUNDING, "Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. In fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol and WikiProject Spam." DHeyward appears to be simply correcting related problems on multiple articles that you have edited. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:11, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

"Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia."

Repeat: to repeatedly confront... with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress. Dheyward has never edited those pages before - they were following me in hopes of creating irritation, annoyance or distress. Morty C-137 (talk) 20:40, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

If these edits you cited [31] [32] annoyed you, you are in the wrong place. You called them reverts when in fact your exact text and citation were retained. You didn't bother to check that the source and content were duplicated. --DHeyward (talk) 20:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Morty C-137, it appears that pretty much everything causes you "irritation, annoyance or distress", including the most innocuous of edits. Right now it looks like you are heading toward an indefinite block, and your continued claims of harassment and bad faith are making that block more likely. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:05, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Disruptive commentary by LynnWysong, lashing out at an editor she has a beef with, but irrelevant to this discussion, even if she unhats this, again. LynnWysong: You're rapidly putting yourself into a place where other editors are going to start considering you a net negative to the project if you keep inserting yourself into discussions you know nothing about, merely to slag off one of the editors you've taken a dislike to. My advice is to knock it off. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I would like to know if anyone's opinion here is influenced by this. Seems like whether or not keeping a page like this, the real issue here, is okay, depends on who you are. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 22:34, 12 August 2017 (UTC) I don't know Morty C-137, but what I see here is that he/she was brought here because they were keeping a page to prepare for an SPI. In the edit summary they provided, they were told that they shouldn't keep it more than six months without taking action. That forced him to file an SPI before it was ready. Now, he's being accused by the object of the SPI of having brought the accusation here instead of at SPI in the first place. Uh, no, he didn't. And now, he's being told that since he made that accusation, his own behavior is under review. In the meantime, a couple of years ago, an established editor was keeping a similar page. When it was pegged for deletion, the community rallied to her side. This is hypocrisy at it most pathological. If what Guy Macon (talk · contribs) was really upset about was the editor's behavior at other articles, that's what this ANI should have been about. Right now it looks like a bait and switch. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 01:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC) (edit conflict) This is just wrong on so many levels...first, Montanabw's page had only been there for two months, it was supplementing an active SPA of a LTA, and it was moved away to WP space once people noticed it and MfD'd it. Second, Morty didn't have to file the SPI at that time, he could have easily kept this stuff off-wiki as suggested by the deleting admin and others until he was ready (not that it would have affected the outcome; baseless accusations are just that no matter how polished). Third, Cjhard was telling Volunteer Marek to take the accusations to the SPI, not Morty. And fourth, there's no "whistleblower protection" here, per WP:BOOMERANG; everyone's behavior is scrutinized. ansh666 02:14, 13 August 2017 (UTC) But, didn't it say that Morty's page had only been there for one month? Yes, he could have, and, upon having not had his hand called, he may have not filed it all. Ah. I misunderstood How does WP:BOOMERANG apply when then the person supposedly being boomeranged didn't bring the action? Lynn (SLW) (talk) 02:30, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Lynn, I don't even know where to start. To begin with, most of the commentary here has nothing to do with the WP:POLEMIC page (which Floquenbeam was completely within their administrative prerogative to remove, regardless) but rather about their generally comabative and hostile attitude towards criticism in general, whatever the context and space it occurs in. Second, so you managed to dig up one occasion, from years ago, in which a similar page was retained? So what? I think you should read WP:OTHERSTUFF (even if it is just an essay); or better yet confirmation bias, because while that one page may have been retained (for a very short time) on the basis of a "no consensus" result, the standard approach on this project, applied time and time again, is to not allow such evidence to be compiled and stored longterm. There's an unambiguous policy about this: WP:POLEMIC, in case you've missed it the dozen or so times it's been cited here already. It doesn't matter if, once upon a time, in one discussion, the community failed to uphold that policy (or decided under the facts of those circumstances that it was appropriate)--that's not a reason for doing so again here. Meanwhile your argument that deleting that policy-violating page "forced Morty to file an SPI prematurely" makes absolutely zero sense. No one put a clock on Morty and no one tried to (or realistically could) prevent Morty from compiling his evidence offline, if he felt that was a worthwhile use of his time. He was simply prevented from hosting the information in his user space. Again, per policy. Certainly no one encouraged Morty to file any one of those SPIs without proper merit or evidence (other than "they got in my away, why else would they do that if they weren't out to get me?"). Lastly, I don't really care what Guy's other concerns with the user were and which issue he should have raised first, according to you. The community members who have responded here are all discussing what they perceive to be a complex of issues with this user, but all of them going back to a short fuse and an inability to have their actions questions or their will thwarted without lashing out with accusations of "harassment". And frankly, your off-base argument that they are being singled out or treated differently from other members of the community (when almost all longterm POLEMIC pages are deleted upon discovery) is not going to help this user correct course, but only encourage them to turtle up further into the comforting assumption that they are being persecuted. Snow let's rap 02:21, 13 August 2017 (UTC) I'm just bringing up what I see to be a true flaw with ANI, which is that it never seems to deal with the issue at hand. (edit) The editor was brought here ostensibly for keeping a page against policy, and he/she is being threatened with a boomerang, when they didn't bring the action. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 02:38, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Until Ansh's response to you above, WP:BOOMERANG wasn't mentioned once, and nobody is being "threatened" with anything. The user's conduct is being examined. There is no prohibition here against noting relevant problematic behaviours just because they happen to not be the focus of the OP's original comments; that would make zero pragmatic sense for this space. Certainly the community is not required to turn a blind eye to an issue that is explicitly on display in the ANI itself. Snow let's rap 02:54, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Unlike what many people assume, BOOMERANG doesn't just apply to the filer of a case (or whatever the applicable metaphor is), it applies to everyone involved. (oh, I see - I wasn't addressing Morty specifically on that last point, just speaking generally) ansh666 03:03, 13 August 2017 (UTC) "And frankly, your off-base argument that they are being singled out or treated differently from other members of the community (when almost all longterm POLEMIC pages are deleted upon discovery) is not going to help this user correct course, but only encourage them to turtle up further into the comforting assumption that they are being persecuted." I don't think that doing a bait and switch at ANI, bringing up a minor problem-a POLEMIC page that had only been up for a month when others are not only allowed to stay longer but even defended, and then switching to what "the community" perceives as the real problem, helps with a feeling of persecution either. Also, he's being taken to task for filing SPIs, that don't appear to be entirely frivolous or vindictive. In my experience, discouraging filing SPIs when someone thinks they have legitimate cause will lead to much worse behavior. Believe me, I've been the victim of it, so I'm coming from a different perspective here. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 03:55, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

This discussion is thoroughly off the rails. I request an un-involved admin close it with no action against any editors. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:44, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I've changed the template from {{hat}} to {{cot}} to prevent edit warring. But hopefully off-topic discussions can stop here. Alex Shih^Talk 04:48, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Respectfully, with Lynn's divergence being now hatted, I must disagree with your description of the discussion and with your recommendation. There are real and substantial issues still being addressed here, and (Lynn aside) all of the community members who have responded to this thread are roughly of the same mind that the behaviour in question is problematic (even if no clear solution / response from the community has been proposed). Morty has responded to every halfway critical appraisal of his actions with cries of "harassment", even while under community scrutiny and while responding to admin directives here at ANI. If he's willing to shout accusations in the faces of admins trying to restrain him, how can we reasonably believe he's about to change his approach when dealing with the rank and file in disputes on some random article--especially the highly charged socio-political ones he favours? I don't see the point in closing this thread when it's virtually certain the user will be back here at ANI or back spamming SPI before we can blink. Snow ^{let's rap} 05:14, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Off topic Show me an ANI thread with this much activity that wasn't off the rails after 36 hours. I'd honestly like to know what that looks like. Absent some kind of ground rules, firmly enforced, there aren't any rails to be off of. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:18, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

My point also. The ANI was filed in response to what was called an "Attack Page". Now, I didn't see the page, and I don't know if there was anything on it that could be termed an "attack" rather than part of compiling an SPI case, but it sounds like that was what it was, and that it wasn't a frivolous case, as per Volunteer Marek. "Not frivolous" as opposed to "valid"...I'm not making judgements on the validity of Morty's suspicions, but it does seem to me that he was doing what he was supposed to do when one has suspicions of socking, and that is to file an SPI. Sounds like he filed a couple, ended up with egg on his face, and was being more cautious with the third, when all of a sudden his hand is forced. So, he files the SPI in response to that, and now he's being attacked himself on all fronts, for one being accused of "spamming" SPI. This is the problem with ANI. This thread went off the rails as soon as it stopped being about the "Attack Page" and whether or not it was okay to have it. Which means it went off the rails in lines 2-5 of the thread, when Guy Macon started bringing up the recent ANIs that had been brought against Morty. And, as to how long one should be allowed to maintain a page of difs related to sockpuppet suspicions, what is the "timely manner" (quote from policy) in which it should be used? The answers are: "It depends on whether or not you've recently been brought to ANI" and/or "It depends on what editor is keeping them, and who they are keeping them on," neither of which is an objective, rationale response that is going to diffuse an editor that is already feeling persecuted.

So yes, this should be closed without action. If another ANI is opened, there should first be a perusal of Robert's Rules of Order by all parties. The dogpile method that ANI currently uses is not just dysfunctional, it's something out of Lord of the Flies. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 13:37, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Cjhard has now been closed: "Checkuser finds nothing interesting connecting Cjhard with any of these accounts or with any problematic accounts at all."

Meanwhile, the previously listed problem behavior ([33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42][43]) has continued with [44][45][46][47].

There is a broad consensus that the behavior of Morty C-137 is problematic. Everyone who criticizes Morty C-137 in any way is accused of bad faith, harassment, or sockpuppetry. If this is closed without administrative action, someone will open a new report when the behavior continues. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:44, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

A Proposal

Morty C-137 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is now editing 2017 Unite the Right rally, and while he has managed to technically avoid violating 3RR (because some of his reverts are of obvious vandalism), editing that page at all during this discussion is a sign of incredibly poor judgment on his part. As a friendly offer to him, I suggest that he voluntarily agree to a post-1932 American Politics TBAN for the next month. Power~enwiki (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I note that I can't promise that other editors will consider this sufficient. Power~enwiki (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

And I note that I think that the object of the ANI has been met, which was to address the "Attack Page." It's gone. But you're right, he probably should walk away from articles like that for a while (why 1932?). I, for one, wouldn't touch one of those types of articles with a 10 foot pole (My focus is on the fur trade and nice, un-contentious articles about horses Oh, wait) My observation is that anyone who does edit those ends up getting regularly brought to ANI and blocked. Just part of the whole "encyclopedia anyone can edit" scenario. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 17:36, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

@Power~enwiki: Have I made any bad edits on that page? Can you point to any? I'm willing to bet you can't. Morty C-137 (talk) 17:57, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Not the right response Morty. He didn't say you made questionable edits, but that your editing the page was questionable. You need to walk away from all this for a while. Believe me, I know what it feels like to be dogpiled, and that's why I took hits here calling that out, but if you don't settle down you're going to be right back here and it will probably be for the right reasons next time. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 18:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, there is no "right response", ever. No matter what policy is complied with, there's another contradictory policy. Trying to report harassment results in more threats; filing quickly when there are likely sockpuppets gets attacked, trying to put it all together to get it right gets attacked the same way. Whatever I say, whatever I do, someone with an agenda will twist it and misrepresent it in some way. They won't do shit about people who hunt me page to page, they won't do shit about the people constantly making new accounts to harass me, but they'll go after me nonstop. Morty C-137 (talk) 19:20, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

And your belief that is the case is a good reason for the proposed TBAN. Your non-political edits seem to be stress free for you but your political edits have you seeing boogeymen at every turn. That's a problem for all of us much more than any problems you are dealng with. --DHeyward (talk) 20:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

And there's a reason someone who stalked my edits trying to irritate me will have no impact on my opinion. Morty C-137 (talk) 21:19, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

That's OK. Being blocked from editing Wikipedia has been show to be an effective method for impacting the opinion of editors like you.

You are claiming that it's always someone else, never you. For some inexplicable reason dozens of people who don't know each other have somehow gotten together and decided to harass poor, innocent you, while the vast majority of editors get along fine with everyone else.

The fact of the matter is that we do care about those who legitimately harass you, and we are putting in our absolute best effort to identify them and stop them from posting to Wikipedia. But none of that changes the fact that your behavior is a problem as well.

Here are some diffs. Study them, and identify the things that you are doing that others here are not doing. Then stop doing those things.

• "Bullshit and WP:WEASEL words"[48]
• "The repeated dishonesty ... just designed to try to irritate and provoke "[49]
• "Rudely and dishonestly misrepresenting ... false accusation"[50]
• "Fraudulent ... in bad faith"[51]
• "Obvious bad faith"[52]
• "Inappropriate and done in a manner calculated to harass."[53]
• "That proves this whole listing is in bad faith"[54]
• "You'd prefer to beat me up. Now I see why admins are considered suck stuck up jerks on wikipedia."[55]
• "What a load of harassing crap."[56]
• "Go away. You know you only posted that garbage to harass me."[57]
• "But hey, go ahead and roundly misrepresent everything."[58]
• "Not sure what game you're playing or if you just decided you hate my guts for some reason."[59]
• "Such a sad individual."[60]
• "So many personal attacks."[61]
• "Stalking my edits and reverting me wherever he can find me, in an attempt to get me angry."[62].

Free clue: The thing you keep doing that is pissing everyone else off involves accusing others of harassment, accusing others of bad faith, and in general acting like a total jerk.

I propose a short block for the above behavior, followed by longer and longer blocks if he keeps doing it. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:21, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I know full well you decided you hate me and want me blocked, and you won't shut up nor stop misrepresenting my edits till you get your way. Such as your rank mischaracterization of when I noted the many personal attacks from DHeyward after he launched a flurry of them including calling me "ban-boy". Morty C-137 (talk) 21:35, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Again, bad behavior (real or imaginary) by others does not excuse your behavior. If you think that either I or DHeyward have misbehaved, file an ANI report with diffs supporting your claims. Your continued assertions that it is never you, always someone else are making it more likely that you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Morty C-137, your post right above is an example of the behavior Guy was pointing out. It probably isn't really helpful to your cause. May I suggest you consider moderating your behavior some? Ealdgyth - Talk 21:59, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I've already posted the diffs here. LynnWysong was right about one thing, Guy Macon posted this just to cause a dogpile because this board isn't for resolving things, it's for a bunch of vultures to get their fill ripping into victims and engaging in DARVO. Morty C-137 (talk) 22:18, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Votes on action against Morty C-137

• Support short block Enough of this. This has wasted way too much time and the editor, even after a failed malformed SPI, still doesn't get it. --Tarage (talk) 22:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support short block as a minimum option to deal with Morty. Hopefully it'll cause him to look at the criticism he's received here and correct his behaviour, but his levels of IDHT are through the roof, so the more likely outcome is that he will add this to his list of grievances by the harrassers at Wikipedia and we'll be back here when he resumes editing. Cjhard (talk) 23:53, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Then what's the point? Lynn (SLW) (talk) 00:39, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

I also support a topic ban on political topics as a measure which might be more effective in preventing Morty's disruptive behaviour in the long term. Cjhard (talk) 01:05, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• OpposeThis ANI has been a cluster. The fact that it started by characterizing Morty's draft SPI report as an "Attack Page" fatally flawed it from the beginning. Process should mean something. Even if you have to let someone off the hook that probably doesn't deserve it, you can't use flawed process to justify retribution. Let's piece the conch back together and do make people do it right. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 00:08, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Extended discussion on the "draft SPI report"

Of course it was an attack page. It was (quite properly) deleted under WP:CSD#G10 and undeletion was declined at deletion review. Read WP:POLEMIC: "Generally, you should avoid substantial content on your user page that is unrelated to Wikipedia. Unrelated content includes, but is not limited to the compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner. Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used..." or read WP:ATP, which says "keeping a 'list of enemies' or 'list of everything bad user:XXX did' on your user space is neither constructive nor appropriate. Bear in mind that the key to resolving a dispute is not to find and list all the dirt you can find on somebody." --Guy Macon (talk) 00:41, 14 August 2017 (UTC) "...the compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted." Compiling evidence for an SPI is a legitimate action, and should not be termed an "Attack Page". The key words there are "timely manner" and "imminently." That should have been the focus of the ANI, unless there were things on there that didn't apply to the ANI. I don't know, and you didn't provide difs of any, instead you brought up his past ANIs. Not right. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 01:02, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Why do you keep insisting (although everyone else here keeps telling you otherwise) that it is somehow "inappropriate" to bring up multiple issues about a problematic user? This isn't a court case, nor is Wikipedia a bureaucracy. And Guy didn't pull any kind of "bait and switch" as you've implied repeatedly above. He brought an initial issue here, which could have been resolved quickly, except for the fact that Morty instead chose to accuse every admin and community member here who tried to get them to what was wrong with their approach of harassment. That is what lead to community looking into the broader issues with this user's conduct, insofar as I can tell from the above. Your insistence that Guy did something wrong or that the other community members here are acting inappropriately by no turning a blind eye to clearly problematic behaviours that were not mentioned by the OP has no basis in policy or community consensus and is, frankly, nonsensical. I appreciate that you identify with this user's aggravation and also that you don't have a high impression of Guy, but I don't think you're keeping proper perspective here and you're out on a limb as a result. Snow let's rap 04:06, 14 August 2017 (UTC) I have no impression of Guy at all, other than that I think he set up this ANI in an unfair manner. And, the fact that I am "out on a limb" for providing a dissenting opinion here is yet another indication of why this process is so dysfunctional. No, ANI is not a court, but it would serve the community much better if some ground rules, based on common court procedures, were established, rather than the free-for-all it currently is. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 11:41, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Well of all of the possible pro forma adjustments to the approach of ANI that you might suggest, the recommendation that we refuse to address behavioural problems not raised in the original post is pretty close to single most non-pragamtic and counter-intuitive suggestion you could make, and not one I think you will ever generate much support for, for that very reason. Snow let's rap 17:40, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Too bad. Because that is why ANI discussions constantly derail, resulting in bad decisions that don't resolve the issue at hand. I'm not saying that behavior can't be an exacerbating factor in a case, but in this case, the discuss veered so off-course the proposed "prevention of disruption" doesn't even fit the issue brought to ANI, and that is that Morty was planning another SPI report in the wake of two that were bad choices of action. So, the logical consequence would be to ban him from filing any more SPI's, but that doesn't seem necessary anymore, so, I guess the "community" has to find some other way to justify all this. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 18:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support both block and TBAN - As a pending changes reviewer, I am witnessing the reversions made on Jenny McCarthy in opposition to Morty's acts. A temporary block will stop D.Pearson's hatred, while the topic ban will prevent further attacks. I also recommend page protection for any affected articles that Pearson is attacking Morty on, including the one I mentioned. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 00:38, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Extended discussion regarding socks

O.M.G. You mean the reversions made by BanMorty (talk · contribs) and MortyKillYourself (talk · contribs)??????!!!!!!! No wonder the guy's got a huge chip on his shoulder. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 01:15, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Yes, but do notice that both of those uers has been already blocked. This community has done, and will continue to do, what it can to shield Morty from this trolling. What it cannot and will not do is allow Morty to see a foe (and then pursue them as such) in every person he comes across who questions his generally bombastic approach, for purely good-faith reasons. What would you have us do, block everyone he suspects of being a sock? Or just let him file SPI after SPI against longterm good-faith contributors, simply because they reverted him on an article that happens to be one of those where he has clashed with his troll? This user needs to learn that WP:DUCK ≠ "person who criticized me". Until they learn and internalize community standards on such things, it's hard to see any alternative to restraining their contributions. Snow let's rap 03:46, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Snow RiseI am simply pointing out that there are mitigating circumstances here. The guy is under attack and isn't dealing with it well. He was accused of seeing "socks everywhere" when in reality, there are socks everywhere. He filed a couple of un-advisable SPI's, (but I don't think they were entirely frivolous-it does sound like he had a reason to believe there was socking involved) and seemed to be realizing he needed to be more methodical if he did another one, hence the "Attack Page". He's like a high strung dog that was attacked by a pack of coyotes, when the other dogs came into help him he was so worked up that he couldn't tell friend from foe. He may have continued to calm down but what happens? He gets dragged here under the auspices that his more methodical manner of dealing with socks is an "Attack Page". Yes, the difs provided by Guy are concerning, and those are what he should be taken to task for. But that issue has been so buried in the red herring of the "attack page" that right now, any block or topic ban is probably not going to send the right message, and would instead seem arbitrary and capricious. That is why process is important here. This idea of "well, we can't really punish you for what you were brought here for so we'll find something else to punish you for is, in my mind, the sign of a "community" devolving into anarchy. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 11:41, 14 August 2017 (UTC) You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what this place is for and what the goals of the community are in a situation like this: no one is here to "punish" Morty, the goal is is prevent further disruption. Would it be nice if we could do that short of restricting his participation on the project? Of course. But multiple admins and community volunteers tried that approach, only to be told they were "clearly out to get/smeer/misrepresent/troll/harass" Morty, or something similar, all while the editor continues to exhibit problematic behaviours in both mainspace and in community spaces and on procedural pages. And I'm sorry, but your argument that if he had just been left in peace to plan his attack page, everything would have turned out rainbows and sunshine does not track for me, to put it mildly. Nor is the fact that a troll amped him up excuse for his lashing out at everyone else; we need our editors to show a more baseline level of restraint than that. And I think it's just plain histrionic to suggest that this project is "descending into anarchy" because the community has decided to do something about this situation; insisting that our editors comport with just the most very basic and essential provisions of our community behavioural guidelines is the opposite of anarchy. And like most community sanctions, Morty will be able to appeal any topic ban after a time, once he can demonstrate a period of non-disruptive editing and identify what went wrong here (without alluding to alleged harassment by the community). Snow let's rap 17:40, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Now you're putting words in my mouth and twisting what I said, which means this discussion, like this whole Action, has devolved into a hopeless mess. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 18:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support either or both short block and topic ban. Morty C-137 has clearly indicated that he will not stop his disruptive behavior unless forced to do so. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support block and AP2 topic ban. --DHeyward (talk) 02:16, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support short-term block and (especially) topic ban from AP2 topics. The IDHT is off the charts here and Morty seems incapable of distinguishing community concerns from genuine harassment. In my opinion the troll who has pestered him (presumably after locking horns with him on some article or another) has only exacerbated an underlying and pronounced difficulty with the collaborative process that seems to be fundamental to Morty's approach on this project. In other words, I'm quite certain that Morty's battleground attitude is a feature of his general attitude while editing here, and that it has been (and will continue to be) present, even in the absence of any kind of actual provocation. A preventative block to temporarily disengage him from his current feuds, combined with removing him from the especially contentious areas until he has demonstrated an understanding of our behavioural standards stands the best chance of forestalling further attacks on passers-by. Personally I would have started with a much more narrow ban from SPI, but the AP2 topic ban being the one put forward, I can support it without qualms. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:21, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support topic ban of some kind, no opinion on a possible block. I think that a tban from SPI (broadly construed to prevent Morty from throwing about these blanket accusations regarding others being socks in general - we're smart enough to be able to get rid of the two sockfarms when they pop up) would be better than a tban from AP2, but if that's the consensus there's no opposition from me. ansh666 05:57, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - both block and TBAN. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:38, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Proposal for Snow Close

It is clear that there is community consensus for a short block followed by a topic ban.

I propose that this report be closed with a short block followed by a six month topic ban from filing new sock puppet investigations and from all edits about and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States, broadly construed. This should be accompanied by a warning about accusing other editors of harassment or bad faith, and an explanation that any further accusations should be in the form of ANI reports, not inline comments. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:11, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Absolutely not as a WP:SNOW close. However, I do support your proposal. Power~enwiki (talk) 22:48, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Not a block, that would purely be punitive; TBAN is another thing. By the way, any admins thinking of closing this might want to first examine the rev-del'd edits a few minutes ago to this section. Black Kite (talk) 00:23, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

A block would not be punitive if the behavior is ongoing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:39, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

...Which opens up a golden opportunity for User:Morty C-137. Are you listening Morty? All you have to do is give us the slightest indication that you understand why eight people just supported having you blocked and/or topic banned and indicate that you will make a good-faith effort to change. Pretty much everyone here (including me) would love to close this with "no administrative action required" and move on. Just give us a reason to think that things will change. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:57, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Guy, that's good advice, and I've left a note on Morty's talk page urging him to heed it. It doesn't look like he's edited since you left the offer – let's see how he responds before this proceeds further. Mojoworker (talk) 19:00, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

For those of us who were unable to see the rev-del edits, can you give us some understanding as to how they pertain to this? --Tarage (talk) 02:12, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

It was a grossly uncivil comment against the editor in question from a likely sock. Alex Shih^Talk 02:25, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

A CU confirmed (by me) sock. There have been two unrelated sets of socks attacking Morty. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/D.H.110/Archive stopped in April. The ones mentioned there in June are part of this set: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/D.Pearson/Archive. They are definitely unrelated other than the target - the second set is mimicking the first. Except at the beginning, when D.Pearson suddenly appeared to defending Morty and to help him edit war, leading to a possible/inconclusive SPI.Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Morty C-137/Archive. Doug Weller talk 08:20, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

There's another one on there right now. So childish. Lynn (SLW) (talk) 14:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

So is User:Morty C-137 laying low or reappearing in different form after contemplative period? --DHeyward (talk) 21:44, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Antisemitism

Could someone have a look at the Antisemitism in the United Kingdom page. There are two editors determined to include a picture of Jeremy Corbyn. The picture was added only two weeks ago, shortly after the 2017 UK general election. There was no discussion and no consensus was sought. There's little evidence of a consensus for such a controversial move. Garageland66 (talk) 08:42, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

As this is a content dispute, I have fully protected the article for one week and advised editors to gain consensus for the inclusion of these images. I don't believe any other admin action is necessary at this time -- There'sNoTime ^{(to explain)} 08:53, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Well, says User:Philip Cross, it fits "as the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn has been implicated in a tolerance of antisemitism by very many sources"--a ridiculous excuse for a BLP violation. One wonders (maybe) why Cross picked only Corbyn, when all major parties were indicted in the recent report. Drmies (talk) 18:30, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid I am with my honourable colleague Drmies here. I don't wonder at anything anybody does or says here any more, but I would be prepared if necessary to exercise a technical measure to prevent any such damage to our project. --John (talk) 22:11, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Thank you. I looked at this a few hours ago and was going to post some thoughts but really I just think people who continue righting great wrongs in such an absurd fashion should be given a final warning and then indeffed. Johnuniq (talk) 23:49, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• What Phillp Cross said is correct and the fact it hardly appears anywhere is an obvious NPOV problem (not opining on Corbyn's picture on that page, but the general coverage of the issue in this encyclopedia). Corbyn even had to commission an inquiry about it due to the pressure from the media, yet none of that appears on his page or the Labour page. Funny that, eh? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:07, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
  • [63] here they even call it Labour Anti-Semitism. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:34, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Here's a RS that states that the Labour party linked to increase in anti-semitic acts in the UK. [64] hiding behind PC policy is just wrong, here's another RS, where a third of voters stated they will not vote Labour because of alleged anti-semitism, clearly Labour and Antisemitism in the UK is relateable, [65] Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:32, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

However Labour != Jeremy Corbyn. Its inappropriate to link a living person in that way absent reliable sources that do. That *Labour* has an anti-Semitism problem (allegedly) has been well covered. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:02, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

How about this? The same percentage of Jews said they'd vote Labour as Muslims who voted for Trump, linked directly to Corbyn.

This is not the place to go over the content issue, but it's obvious noting criticism of how Corbyn deals with antisemitism is not a BLP violation. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:03, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

By the way, the fact nothing about this stuff appears in any relevant article despite years of coverage in places like the BBC, NBC, Guardian, etc, is an obvious WP:BIAS issue. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:48, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh that's just because Wikipedia is run by socialists... Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:00, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Socialist activists, please. -- Begoon 13:30, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, those pesky Jews who want to edit Wikipedia and include mention of increased antisemitism in the world, and antisemitism with regards to Labour and how it's affecting the party. Shame, really. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 13:53, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh. Well at least you're neutral. I was joking, I have no position, but nailing your flag to the mast is ok too. I don't edit those articles. I have better things to do. They're full of people who make comments like you just did. Not a war I want to join. -- Begoon 15:08, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

You don't want to join the war, just take a drive-by shot. What's not neutral in what Sir Joe just said?

You guys can make fun of this as much as you like, the fact remains that editors try to add information about this issue to various articles and those attempts are almost always blocked, despite the fact there's a very large amount of coverage in the media. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Yep, I was kicked off a page because I posted a different opinion about Sweden. It is true though, that antisemitism is now tolerated by the left, both in the UK and in the US, and it's a shame that Wikipedia is not allowing mention of that in articles where it can rightly belong, merely I guess for trying to be PC. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, all those left-wing demonstrators in Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us!" were quite a spectacle. Oh, wait... Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:41, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for proving our point. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:29, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Possible template vulnerability used in Azad Hind to redirect to a Twitch channel/external website

I was attempting to click on a link on this article when I was suddenly redirected to some sort of satirical Twitch channel. Apparently, somebody managed to insert a page-long image that links to an external website. Editing the article's source doesn't reveal any suspicious links, so I presume that the vulnerability resides inside of a template used within the page, and I'm not good enough with reading/editing Wikipedia templates (even though they must be simple enough to use) to locate the vulnerability (perhaps the vulnerability resides within the MediaWiki software itself?). This could be dangerous, as the external link might be an IP logger or even worse, and prevents normal usage of Wikipedia.

You simply have to click anywhere inside the contents of the article to be redirected. The website's sidebar and top bar are normally usable as the link's reach doesn't leave the article's div tag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WaryLouka (talk • contribs) 14:57, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

A remnant, I think, of some vandalism some days ago. Try purging the page's server cache by making a null edit on the page if you see it again. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 15:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

It seems to be gone now - That being said, however, I feel that the incident around twitch links in templates does need to be dealt with. Twitbookspacetube 15:15, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, yes, I purged the cache by making a null edit... --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:54, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

It's still there. I just had this issue on the exact same article and was going to come here to report it. 81.98.14.109 (talk) 21:08, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

By the way here is what the page HTML source code looked like to me a few minutes ago. It is not longer appearing for me either. 81.98.14.109 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, it's no longer appearing for you? Perhaps it was a lingering caching effect. :) (I did purge a few more times...). The ext link has been blacklisted so it should not be appearing on the wiki again. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:23, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

The spoof here was covering the whole page a transparent png; is there a reason not to size-limit img= things? Do we need 7000x7000 images anywhere? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 14:22, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: Entire template space is semi-protected

Nope. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:55, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I would like to propose that the entire template space move to a minimum standard of semi-protection. Twitbookspacetube 15:15, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support Twitbookspacetube 15:15, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose this is trying to fix a leak with a hammer. Power~enwiki (talk) 16:51, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per Power, doesn't solve anything really. ansh666 17:33, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose This is an overreaction. The incident has already been dealt with, any remnants can be cleared up very simply. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:59, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Overkill. It has already been added to MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist. nihlus kryik (talk) 21:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose IP and new users do make useful and productive changes to templates. There are better ways to handle this issue. Ravensfire (talk) 01:24, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

DYK nominations are the obvious examples. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:11, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, yeah, and when I find the editor who created that ridiculous structure for DYK I'm going to throttle them. EEng 01:54, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alternative proposal : Audit templates and TE protect above a threshold

I like the idea of template editor protecting these sorts of templates; they are obviously high use, and vandals are likely to go for the ones that have the highest visibility. So, do we have an audit of the most widely transcluded templates (infoboxes and Twinkle-compatible templates must be high up the list)? And if not, can we make one. Once we know that, we can start identifying what should be protected, and act on that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

We have Wikipedia:Database reports/Unprotected templates with many transclusions (highest). — JJMC89 (T·C) 19:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

See WP:HRT. nihlus kryik (talk) 21:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

The problem is edits that add large images or layers to templates by IP or new users. Would it be possible to create an edit filter to look for those and prevent them from happening, directing the user to the template talk page to request the edit there? Ravensfire (talk) 16:29, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

It's certainly possible to create an edit filter which checks when IPs (or any class of users) add images (or external links) to templates, tagging the edit, blocking it, warning the user or so. However, I do not think it'd be possible to check if the image is large or not, since technically you're referencing to the image location and not embedding the object in the edit itself. --QEDK (愛) 15:02, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

PA is irking me

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) said this, which I saw a few hours ago. I pointed out something here, thinking that, well, he would retract it. He didn't.

Although I usually just let PAs against pass by, I am really, really pissed with the implication that I am anti-semitic, which comes pretty much from nowhere and is chilling because that sort of mud sticks. Can someone please tell Norton not to bandy around things like that before doing their homework? There is absolutely no basis to it, either in my real life or in what I do on Wikipedia. - Sitush (talk) 16:02, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that's pretty low, Mister. But I thought you'd got a good handle on it: E.g., @Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): implies someone is antisemitic on no basis; so @Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) gets told to Fuck Himself Off. The system works. Although I do not necessarilly blame you at all for wanting some official eyes on it- in the spirit of preventing similar suggestions in future, I suppose Sitush? — fortunavelut luna 16:27, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Some people perhaps don't get so riled by being labelled an anti-semite. I know the "he started it first" idea is childish, but he did and telling him to fuck off is not actually labelling him etc. I live in an area that has the second-highest density of Jewish people in the UK. I would be absolutely hammered if this baseless stuff got out. - Sitush (talk) 16:35, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Would Stamford Hill have the highest, would you say? — fortunavelut luna 16:37, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Eh? What is your point? Now he is piling it on with insinuations of hatred about other things. I'm seriously pissed with this. - Sitush (talk) 16:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

No, just idle curiousity, sorry- often wondered on a 253. Yes, the implications there are rather egregious. It's effectively envelope-pushing (in)civility, and certainly casting WP:ASPERSIONS upon an editor's motives. Mind you, RAN does seem to have form when it comes to that kind of incollegiality. — fortunavelut luna 16:49, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Since asking for/demanding apologies is a waste of time, let's do it this way instead:

  User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) will be blocked indefinitely if he ever says, or implies, that someone is an anti-semite. He will remain blocked until he agrees never to say something like that again, and can get the reviewing admin to believe him. This is not because we can't call things by their true names here; it is because apparently he is incapable of understanding the meaning of this very charged term.

The point being, it's OK to call actual anti-semites "anti-semitic", but if you don't understand the term, or (worse) are using it to score rhetorical points, then you can't do that here. Whether, as a human being, RAN owes Sitush an apology is not a matter for WP. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:11, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Forgot to metntion here, but I've {{rpa}}'d the original insult that started this whole thing off, and {{collapse}}'d the resulting comments at the AFD. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:21, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree that, after all, apologies aren't guarantees, whereas this way should achieve that. Seconded. 'Implies' is the equivalent of 'broadly construed,' here, I suppose. — fortunavelut luna 17:23, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

RAN's response is not encouraging; I'd switch the first sentence of that proposal to just "RAN is indeffed." GoldenRing (talk) 17:46, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I prefer the warning first, but will not lose any sleep if we do it your way. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:50, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Not encouraging, indeed! if they cannot see that you cannot dictate after the event how a remark is to be taken by those it is directed at. CIR, IDHT, are intimated. — fortunavelut luna 17:54, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Support block and talk later. This is an editor who flies to this page when he believes he's been insulted with post after post about the incident. He wants consideration when he thinks he's on the receiving end, but appears to care less about what he says to others. Deja vu from one year ago today. BTW-Has he been notified of this thread? We hope (talk) 18:14, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Notified. Reminder, @Sitush: when you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page. nihlus kryik (talk) 18:22, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

@Nihlus Kryik: He knows. They know. The subject was notified, some time ago. Just bear in mind, because someone hasn't used a template, it doesn't mean it's not there. There is, after all, more to WP than templates, I hope :) Or at least, should be. — fortunavelut luna 18:49, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Sitush did notify Mysticdan (talk) 18:49, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, that's my bad. I missed it in all their friendly banter. :) nihlus kryik (talk) 21:37, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Well, I'm not going to let this thread archive until Norton responds here. As others have said above, he does have form for making wild accusations. Somehow, he needs to learn that it isn't acceptable. - Sitush (talk) 07:15, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• I agree. When lines are crossed, people need to account for their actions, and just ignoring the community at ANI in the hope it dies a death just isn't appropriate. - SchroCat (talk) 12:07, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

It's not a very good sign at all, I agree. — fortunavelut luna 12:30, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• I'm a little surprised no one seems to have noted this comment, which likely prompted RAN's explosive remarks. It's probably not a good idea to suggest that one's own draft comments would have been misconstrued as antisemitism. To me, that's just asking for trouble. I certainly don't believe that Sitush is antisemitic, nor do I think RAN should have made such an assumption based on the comment I've linked. My point is that trying to preemptively head off such an accusation is not a great idea. WP:BEANS and such. Lepricavark (talk) 04:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• RAN may have misinterpreted Sitush's remarks, but that was over two days ago and the personal attack has not been retracted. There has been zero evidence to suggest the PA had any foundation. The only editor who said "I am not antisemitic, but..." is RAN—Sitush did not say that. Johnuniq (talk) 06:09, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• I am merely making the point that everyone is ignoring that this was prompted by an ill-considered remark that was misconstrued, perhaps intentionally. I think context is important and therefore I pointed it out. I'm not denying that RAN is in the wrong, and he really should respond to this thread here and acknowledge that he is in the wrong, but it is a good idea to show Sitush his mistake so he can avoid it in the future. Lepricavark (talk) 11:22, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• My point was that it is necessary to be extremely careful when commenting on topics such as this because it is so easy for something to be misconstrued. (For example, if I had suggested that people such as her sometimes engaged in their educational talks as much for her own personal therapy as for education then I would get into a lot of trouble. Note the word example, please - I've nothing to support it and no reason to think she did.) My remark was not an admission of anti-Semitism etc but, if anything, the opposite. - Sitush (talk) 11:28, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• I completely agree that it is necessary to be careful, but I don't think you were careful enough when you wrote that you were concerned about being accused of antisemitism. RAN certainly made a large leap in his interpretation and it is true that your comment was not equivalent to "I am not antisemitic, but...", but when you say your words might be misrepresented as antisemitism, it opens up a door you don't want to open. Of course you aren't antisemitic and RAN needs to acknowledge that. Lepricavark (talk) 11:36, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• The only credible comments above are those calling for an indefinite block. People can say unfortunate things and not be sanctioned provided they acknowledge their mistake. Ignoring this ANI discussion and doubling-down on the original accusation (see diff and RAN's talk) is unacceptable. Apologies are never required at Wikipedia but if, more than two days after the original accusation, an editor cannot withdraw their attack they are actively (right now) accusing an editor of antisemitism. That is an ongoing PA which requires an indef to prevent further disruption. Johnuniq (talk) 06:09, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

  The only credible comments above are those calling for an indefinite block. I suspect that is specifically directed at me, which seems awfully harsh given that I said nothing which would stretch the limits of credibility. Lepricavark (talk) 11:22, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• User:Sitush has a long history of personal attacks/unacceptable language, as well WP:CIVIL violations, despite being a very valuable editor who dares to touch highly toxic topic areas in systemically racist non-English-speaking societies, with great skill. I don't know why they are climbing this particular hill, risking airfoil action, over what isn't even clearly personal. Perhaps applying battleground techniques applicable in places with real wars, to articles about little old ladies, is a bit over the top. Nfitz (talk) 08:23, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Nfitz, did you even see what was said originally? You've been sticking your oar in all over the place recently and I wonder if the same applies here?. I have no idea what "airfoil action" is, btw. - Sitush (talk) 09:03, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Originally? It was something about an apple wasn't it - somewhere in Archive 1. But I came in at this which didn't seem to be aimed at any particular individual. I'm fine with your actions, etc. I merely think you need to stop dropping the F bombs unless entirely appropriate. This is the same oar I normally drop - that WP:5P4 is a pillar, and thus takes primacy over more minor things, like what is at worst a subtle jibe for someone using language that while perhaps correct, is going to raise eyebrows with some perceiving inappropriateness. Given the number of times people drag you here over trumped up charges, I'd think you'd simply turn the other cheek. Nfitz (talk) 09:59, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

It was not a subtle jibe. Civility is definitely a pillar, but it doesn't only cover swear words. Lepricavark (talk) 11:22, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The words were obviously intended as a direct accusation of antisemitism. Scanning the page shows that very clearly, but any doubt is erased by noting that the accusation has not been retracted. The word-twisting of "you all" is transparently false as the implication of antisemitism only matches 'I just know someone will be waiting to shout "anti-semitism"' immediately prior to the antisemitism attack. Johnuniq (talk) 11:26, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Nfitz, the fact that I do usually turn the other cheek seems to have escaped your attention. That, though, is an indication of how much RAN has irked me. - Sitush (talk) 11:31, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment Still supporting block and talk later. RAN has made himself scarce here since this ANI post. You can't get him off this page when he believes he's been wronged and expanded it to Jimbo Wales' TP. There he made an unprovoked PA re: another editor being a cross-dresser; he's not an innocent when it comes to slinging PAs. We hope (talk) 11:41, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually I mis-spoke. I identified Norton's title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FRose_Van_Thyn&type=revision&diff=795670099&oldid=795602885 comment as what was originally said. Actually, it was only in response to Sitush's previous, somewhat condescending, comment which was the first mention of anti-semitism. I don't know why the topic even got raised. The response in turn, seemed pretty mild, unless one fails to follow WP:AGF and takes it personally, when it doesn't particularly read that way. I don't know how it's obvious, given the use of the word used for a second-person plural pronoun. It's possible, but it's not obvious. I'm not sure what the first diff tells us ... 3 follow-up posts in a long complaint he made? Hardly seem unusual. The second one - unprovoked PA, accusation of being a cross-dresser. I think that you've completely misread that, the context is to his earlier comment about blaming women wearing dresses for getting raped. He then compares letting people use the F bomb because they were provoked, to domestic violence against women. Blofield ultimately asks what can I do about it, and Norton jokes "you shouldn't have worn the dress". This is not an accusation of cross-dressing - it's a metaphor. But hang on - how could a simple comment about someone wearing a dress be a personal attack? Why do you think there's something wrong with men wearing dresses? It's commonly enough accepted - it's not like any normal person would care if someone was trans or not - though how does it even mean that ... there's no context, perhaps it was Halloween, or perhaps someone is bucking for a Section 48. Heck, there's no indication in particular of what Blofield's gender is - I assume it's a known fact, but I don't know which of the many genders they are. I don't understand why the skin is so thin here; looks to me that there is simply a reaction to comments that are more jibes and humour, than personal attacks. Nfitz (talk) 16:36, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps you could try not reaching so far afield-you've fallen off the limb some time ago. We hope (talk) 10:48, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• This is a wholly unsatisfactory situation. @Floquenbeam: At this stage, with RAN's explanations deafening by their absence, do we assume that the personal attack is still extant per no retraction? — fortunavelut luna 11:43, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know; ANI is almost completely useless for decisions like this. My personal inclination, as given above, is to not demand a retraction/apology, but to instead make it very clear that it cannot ever be repeated. It's not like anyone with a brain thinks RAN is right, and FWIW I did redact it, and RAN hasn't edited in 1-2 days so the idiocy is not being repeated. But I don't want to just do that when it appears others think a block right now is in order, since I don't get to over-rule them all. Like I said, such a block would not make me terribly upset. But no one is actually making the block either. So the worst of all possible outcomes is it slides into the general background slime of ANI and nothing happens, but that's often the default occurance. If ANI worked more like an OTRS-type system, an admin could come along, say "I've got this one", deal with it (probably to no one's complete satisfaction) and move on. But waiting for consensus and drive by comments and voting and seeing when RAN decides to edit again is exhausting, and leads to nothing happening (to everyone's complete dissatisfaction).

@Sitush:, if you would be grudgingly OK with the warning I posted above, I'll do it and close this. If not, then one of the admins who think a block is in order should come back and actually do it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:01, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree with most of your analysis. Thing is, I think RAN's response here is not good enough. But I don't think it's one of those situations where an admin can just indef someone on their own initiative. So if I see consensus here to block him, I'll do it. I don't see it. GoldenRing (talk) 14:23, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

OK, well at least a slide into the general background ANI slime has been averted: [66]. I'll leave any further action up to others. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:40, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

User:Floquenbeam, how is this unanimous? There's little indication that it was a personal attack - and the history of personal attacks demonstrated in the case was very, very poor - (a joke about a dress is a personal attack?). If there was such a history of personal attacks - maybe. The complainant however, has a very long history of being uncivil, and swearing unnecessarily at people. A very long history such as in May 2012 September 2012 August 2014 September 2014A September 2014BJuly 2017. And he did it again in this discussion where User:Sitush told someone "F... Off" in what was otherwise a reasonably civil conversation. This is a clear, demonstrable, and repeated offence, which I think should lead to sanctions. Or perhaps a thicker skin, so one can take what one dishes out. Nfitz (talk) 16:47, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, make that "nearly" unanimous. Everything else still holds. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:01, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam: it would be a very grudging acceptance on my part. Despite what is said below, RAN did not disengage - he repeated the thing on his own talk page. I've read also that this is not the first time he has suddenly not been able to edit Wikipedia when he has been brought to ANI, so while I have to AGF in theory, in practice I am unconvinced. Especially since he somehow found the time to speak with Feyd Huxtable at some length about the issue. I'm also now pissed with Nfitz who, again not for the first time, is getting involved in stuff they admit to not understanding and, as BMK says below, again being ridiculously contrarian. They've done it with, for example, Doug Weller in the recent past and, I think, they're heading towards a temporary ban from posting at ANI due to issues of competence.

I'll accept your decision, Floq, because I know you to be one of the best admins. But, yes, it is very grudging because, however much AGF I try to apply, I think the system is being gamed. - Sitush (talk) 16:07, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I didn't see much in replying on the issue again, as it appears that consensus doesn't agree with me, however today Sitush come back here the next day and seems to have made several comments here that concern me.

* First he challenged Norton for not posting to Wikipedia, but could communicate to another user; however if he's travelling on business, he might be in the position, like me, where every action taken on the Internet is logged, and personal use of company resources is monitored and actioned; or perhaps during the most popular vacation time of the year, he's on vacation, and had enough sense to leave his computer at home!

* Secondly, a diff above I'm accused of again getting into stuff I admit to not understanding. That has to be one of the most misleading accusations I've seen. What Sitush is referring to here, is that on a User talk page, I had the gall to try and compliment him to say he is a valued editor, who dares touches highly toxic topic areas in systemically racist societies, with great skill. To which he pointed out that Caste issues aren't racist issues; and I accepted that, noting my ignorance in the topic area (an area I've never edited or commented on before!). Exactly how the use of an incorrect adjective in a user-space comment, in a topic area I don't participate, can be used as an example of competence I don't know!

* Finally I apparently have done similar before with Doug Weller - although I have no recollection of this, and cant find any evidence we've even ever interacted on Wikipedia in over a decade, other than a minor observation of a sock I reported to him, that I was aware he was chasing.

Meanwhile Sitush got what he wanted. The defendant has been harshly warned. Meanwhile, he hasn't edited for days, so there's no risk of imminent damage or destruction. So why are we still here? Consensus seems clear. Move on. Nfitz (talk) 07:56, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• "ANI is almost completely useless for decisions like this" - Why? There is almost universal agreement (Nfitz comments aside) that it was a personal attack either directly or indirectly implying Sitush is an anti-Semite. As an administrator Floq, your remit includes enforcing Wikipedia policies both using your judgment, and as the community interprets them. Standard procedure for where egregious personal attacks are made and identified as such is to demand retraction and block if the editor who made them refuses. Other options taken by admins in the past have included blocking for a fixed period and removing the PA themselves, blocking indef until they agree not to make similar comments in the future and so on. All would be justified given the attack, and RAN's subsequent unsatisfactory response. Anything *less* than a hefty block (with or without unblock conditions) is making a mockery of the various policies for civility, personal attacks, the 5 pillars etc. A simple 'you are blocked until you agree not to say, imply or otherwise insinuate another editor is an anti-semite' would be enough, if RAN is still resolved not to retract it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:09, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Ah had not seen the follow up you made on RAN's talkpage. 'Don't do this again or be blocked indef' is also one of the options available. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:27, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi y'all. I'm a long-time wiki friend and admirer of RAN. When I saw the ANI on his talk this morning, I took the liberty of emailing as I think it can be more effective to have a quiet word sometimes rather than posting public advise. I said the statement could be seen as an attack against Sitush, which would be both obviously untrue & very offensive, and I advised a withdraw. Unfortunately RAN has just advised he is traveling for the rest of the month and he may not be able to edit for a while. He wanted me to post that his remark was not in anyway intended to imply Sitush was a racist. Like many of us, RAN has been distressed by Charlotteville, and wanted to point out the optics of deleting a famous Jew at this time. Also he wanted to suggest that however true it might be to say "I'm not racist but" or "some of my best friends are" , those statements are basically no 1 or 2 in the racists playbook under denial tactics.

RAN knows his choice of words were not the best, and said he would have immediately apologised for the impression he gave, if Sitush has responded in any other way than saying "F" off. That made him want to dis-engage. Most would think being sworn at is totally trivial compared to implications of being a racist. But RAN is not the only hugely productive editor that really dislikes the "F" word. Hopefully when RAN completes his travels he can apologise direct to Sitush if that is still required. Obviosly I strongly oppose any block,and hope this can now be left to archive. PS - great call by Floq just to warn and not block even though they was not privy to this information. That sort of restraint and tact is why Floq is (AFAIK) regarded as one of very best admins. FeydHuxtable (talk) 18:45, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

RAN's attack on Sitush was particularly offensive and the doubling down then expounded it. A couple of editors appear to be attempting to justify RAN's appalling behaviour by claiming the use of the F-word is worse. Really? What an odd world when the use of the F-word, which is pretty common in UK use, is perceived as more offensive than racial abuse. I respectfully suggest that those who are offering ancient diffs of Sitush's supposed indiscretions check RAN's long standing restrictions for copyvio and his willingness to throw accusations and initiate ANI reports and/or stir drama on, for instance, Jimbo's talk page - I am not including diffs as they have all been supplied by others in earlier comments. I seldom comment on ANI preferring not to get involved but feel sufficiently strongly to Support block because in my opinion overall RAN is not a net positive and this is just the latest in a long list of poor judgement. SagaciousPhil - Chat 20:02, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

That's quite a misreading. Only myself and one other raised the F-word issue. In my case I specifically pointed out most would not see the F word as worse- "Most would think being sworn at is totally trivial compared to implications of being a racist". IMO Sitush was totally justified in cussing RAN. But if we want a truly collegial environment, welcoming to a diverse group of editors, it's good to be aware that not everyone has the typical British attitude to profanity, so it should be avoided where possible. As for your comments about RAN not being a net positive, his copyvio issues were largely related to excessively long quotes, and haven't been happening on any scale for more than 10 years. Not sure why you complain about ancient history being raised for one editor and then raise ancient history for another? RAN has made tens of thousands of good edits, naturally there's a few concerning diffs in the mix, but considering he's generally collegial and has been hugely productive , he's obviously a net positive. Can't even believe anyone would want a block now it's been made clear no PA is intended. Oppose block. FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:00, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The suggestion that there is racial abuse is just absurd. I'd wonder if User:Sitush was trolling a bit, by using such classic defences, that are normally seen as evidence in the opposite direction ... but I actually wonder if there might be some English-language competency issues, so maybe not. And hang on, I'm British, and Fuck off is most certainly not in common British usage, not among relative strangers in a forum like this; perhaps with your mates in a pub, in the right context. Besides, civility is one of the pillars here - it's clearly a personal attack. Unlike the alleged anti-Semitic comment, which I don't see how one would conclude is anti-Semitic, give it was Sitush that raised the anti-Semitism issue in the first place. Nfitz (talk) 01:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

"I wonder if Sitush was trolling a bit..." Really?, you really wonder if Sitush was trolling, or are you -- as seems to be your habit on AN/I -- saying the most contrarian thing you can think of to add a little spice to the discussion and get yourself noticed? You think that, given his background, after being called an anti-Semite and being angered by it, his response in laying out the reasons why he wasn't an anti-Semite weren't intended to show why the charge was ridiculous, but to "troll" RAN?

In the future, could you perhaps make sure that when you stir the pot your claims at least pass the laughability test? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:44, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Hang on, you've changed my words. I explicitly used a conditional present tense, not a present tense. Therefore, no I don't wonder, but I would wonder it, if I wasn't assuming good faith and wondering if there English-language competency issues. Given the complainants generally thick skin historically, and willingness to toss out substantial abuse themselves, it's THIS that offends him? And I'm not allowed to ever ponder if they were angling for something? And now they are calling it "racial abuse"; the defendant clarified they were using the pronoun you in the second-person plural, not single -a and they did this BEFORE the ANI complaint.. Elsewhere User:Sitush tried to turn my comment of not wanting to make a too much of a roadmap for ANI into Perhaps it should have been an ANI. Then you would have been put in a position where you would have to explain the "roadmap", whatever that may be. which is what made me wonder about the language competency issue (given the lack of recognizing idioms and lack of awareness of common memes) This is why I'm explicitly NOT wondering if they were just fishing a bit. And "most contrarian thing you can think of ... to get yourself noticed" - simply because you disagree with me, doesn't mean you can fail to AGF and assume I've got some nefarious motive all the time; my motive is to make an honest observation, that people seem to be really over-reacting to what looks relatively innocent, rather than a personal attack. Perhaps when you people's comments; if it looks like some attack of some kind, you should count to ten, sit down, and think that if there was no malice in the content, what were they trying to say; and then it might become apparent there is a different meaning than the one you assumed. Your might want to keep out for the verb tenses as well. And why not address the substance of my comment - that there was a very clear personal attack by User:Sitush; I don't know why everyone is so willing to ignore such a blatant personal attack from someone who has a very long history of doing similar. Nfitz (talk) 04:46, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

When you have to Wikilawyer that much... And if you don't want people to characterize your behavior in negative ways, stop behaving in negative ways. I'm obviously not the only editor who's noticed this propensity in you, so rather than getting your back up, you might take a deep breath and indulge in some introspection. Consider that there just might be some amount of truth in the characterization. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:52, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Nfitz, with each comment you descend further and further into the abyss of sheer nonsense. RAN's remark about antisemitism was clearly directed at Sitush. How you can miss that is beyond me. Sitush's language in his response to RAN was certainly not ideal, but if you cannot understand that a reckless accusation of antisemitism is more serious than an angry response by the recipient of such an accusation, you have completely failed to use common sense. Lepricavark (talk) 03:48, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, how you can assume that is beyond me. Which is more likely, that an editor who has not only been here for 13 years but is one of our most prolific edtors, without (as far as I know) any such reckless accusations of anti-Semitism, suddenly knocks off two of them in 2 days, or that they were merely passing comment, perhaps with some humour, of the use of such classic memes. We are required here to read comments assuming good faith; so if there's leeway to read something different ways, how would one choose something that is either less likely, or very insulting - let alone both; and if that doesn't cover it, there's Occam's razor. It's not the best edit in the world, but I think this has gone way too far. I simply don't see the reckless accusation of antisemitism - and I don't understand the reaction, if one thought it was. I don't even know why one would be that upset. If someone accuses you of something that's just completely out of lunch, I simply point to the error in their assumption, and/or confirm I am understanding their words correctly. Why expend the energy taking something personally, that might not be meant that way - particularly given the national trauma that was (is?) ongoing regarding this subject? Why not simply AGF and take them for their word, that it wasn't personal. Nfitz (talk) 05:43, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

You've done this before, taking the assumption of good faith to absurd heights. At some point, a thing is what it is, and you have to stop pretending it's something it's not because you've been told you have to: usually about the time you've twisted yourself into a pretzel. What matters is not what's "more likely", but what actually happened. You really need to stop being a contrarian for its own sake and deal with the facts on the ground. (The reality of a rock is that when you kick it, you hurt your toe, even if you assume with all of your might that it won't.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:00, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Only if it's Solid Rock rather than Soft rock  ;) — fortunavelut luna 06:22, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Booooo. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

"Fuck" is pretty frequently to be heard on British Television. Any anyone watch Gordon Ramsay on American television? If it isn't used there why is he allowed to use it (or is it censored?). But let's not rely on anecdotes. Let's see a study[67] where "A UK-based linguist created maps based on geotagged data from Twitter that show the usage rates of several popular curse words across the US" It even has a "fuck map". What is obvious is that if you live in some states the word is used rarely Twitter. Live in other states, it's pretty common in Twitter. And fuck is used on US cable tv, right? In any case, living in Britain you can still often see or hear the use of "fuck" coming from Americans. Ok, I know it wasn't just "fuck", but compared to an what Sitush obviously thought was an accusation of anti-semitism? Sure, the first should be avoided but it isn't anywhere near as big a deal as accusing someone of antisemitism. Doug Weller talk 17:50, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

"Fuck" is common enough (though certainly not heard on terrestrial US television much - they even beep "fuck" after midnight, and the only non-accidental nipple I've ever heard of was in Schindler's List)! Even though you can change your dial near the border, where our biggest [[68]] network ran Sopranos uncut in prime time, and they can show casual nudity 24/7. But what I said wasn't about "fuck", it was about "fuck off". If it was only fucking that was said, I wouldn't have said anything about it (nor did I mention this one before). But what was said, in an AFD, was Fuck off], which unlike the simple casual use of fuck or fucking, is a clear personal attack for which there has yet to be an apology - despite the other party having quickly clarified that it wasn't meant as a personal attack, and repeating a second time that "was not in anyway intended to imply Sitush was a racist". However, the consensus here appears to be that it is a personal attack; action has been taken, so might a well move on and close the thread Nfitz (talk) 07:20, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

If not on "terrestrial US television", what about on "extra-terrestrial US television"?

BTW, on the question of "Fuck", I recommend that everyone read The F-Word which is quite amusing, although best read in small doses -- like while on the toilet. We really must keep our wits about us concerning that word: after all, we don't want to inhibit David Mamet's work, do we? Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Just for clarification terrestrial television is a commonly used British expression (I believe both Doug Weller and myself are Brits); here in North America we tend to say over-the-air television (OTA), ie, ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, CBC, CTV, etc., instead. I'd have thought that extra-terrestrial US television would be alien-television, which is presumably any foreign TV, like BBC or Univision :) Nfitz (talk) 17:51, 20 August 2017 (UTC

Thank you for that, the term was unfamiliar to me. As for "Over-the-air", perhaps it's an age thing, but I'm more familiar with it being called "broadcast television". Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:26, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I just want to interject at this point that if "PA is irking me" I would suggest going to "MA", per WP:OTHERPARENT. EEng 08:17, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Agree that the circumstances per FeydHuxtable would make a block of RAN undesirable at this time. And after all, it's not RAN's fault that Nfitz keeps idiotically insisting that Sitush needs to be sanctioned for telling RAN to fuck off. Can we please consider the RAN issue closed and instead look at Nfitz's behaviour here (and here and here, where he pointlessly pesters users by repeating his already wordy comments)? I'm sure there are ways you can help Wikipedia, Nfitz, but commenting usefully on ANI doesn't seem to be one of them. Do you even notice how people are getting increasingly irritated at you, suggesting you "take a deep breath and indulge in some introspection" or that "you have completely failed to use common sense"? You wonder if Sitush was trolling "a bit"? You wonder about Sitush's language competency? At least, that's how I read your less than crystal clear "makes me wonder language competency issue, given the lack of recognition idioms". I won't throw "language competency" back in your face for that phrasing, because that would be rude, but I do wonder if you take the trouble to proofread your posts at all. Your ""Fuck off" is a clear personal attack" has impressed nobody, and yet you keep repeating it, without explanation (what's personal about it?) and without, to all appearances, consulting the personal attack policy. Now, after you have personally made the thread so much longer than it need be, you belatedly concede we "might as well move on and close the thread". I hope that means you're done bloating up this thread, pointlessly poking Sitush, and wasting time. No need to respond. Of course I don't mean to prohibit you from responding to me, but if you do, please let that be that. Altogether, you might do well to cut back drastically on your commentary at ANI before somebody opens a thread to propose banning you from it. Bishonen | talk 10:48, 20 August 2017 (UTC).

• Keep insisting he needs to be sanctioned? I only raised that once; by the time I returned that evening, it was clear there was no consensus for that. I said I didn't think Sitush was trolling, but perhaps that was unclear with my grammar. I proofread all my comments earlier today and I am actually horrified at how poor the grammar and spelling were, not to mention the missing words - I will start proofreading closer. I thought that telling someone to "fuck off" in response to what they write, is an insult; obviously consensus is against me. I was done with this on Friday. I only returned on Saturday because of Sitush's comments were so misleading; and while here, I simply clarified that it was only the phrase "fuck off" that I thought was the insult, not a simple adjective "fuck" (or noun or adverb really). I'll try and be less verbose. Nfitz (talk) 17:51, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Confederate monuments list

There is a lot of editing going on at List of monuments and memorials of the Confederate States of America, including some trying to change the list-article to cover schools and parks named after Confederate leaders. The list-article has been in place since 2010, with current title since 2015, and IMHO it is clearly out of scope to add those. There has been some back and forth at Talk page, including at a discussion section about proposed name change / scope change, which is at least partly productive. I myself stated that I was following wp:BRD and removing the off-topic additions, and I expect that there should be discussion first.

However, it has gotten out of hand now. In this edit just now an editor accused me of vandalism, which is absurd, and there were other accusations that way in edit summaries and at the Talk page. I don't want to term it edit warring so far. I removed stuff and after it was all restored I removed it once more, with direction to the Talk page, and I don't plan to restore it now myself. But the list-article has been trashed, in my view, and is now non-encyclopedic. I suggest it would be appropriate to restore a neutral version of the article and freeze it, and force discussion by RFC or whatever, at the Talk page. I hope some attention can be given there. I may not be able to respond/participate much more myself. --doncram 23:56, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I would advise that any matters dealing with this be passed to the Foundation for office action. I just don't feel, at our pay grade, it is safe or advisable to deal with.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:19, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Wehwalt: What a ridiculous statement. The current article's already pretty long, so it would make sense to spin off a new list of public facilities (schools, parks, buildings -- but not monuments, statues) named for Confederates. If there's no such list, someone start it (I would but I don't even have one thing I can put on it). EEng 00:28, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I am referring to administrative actions and you are not. That is within the terms of what the OP is asking for.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:22, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm referring to potential administrative actions too. If you're too afraid of the drooling knuckle-draggers to use your tools, step back and let those made of better stuff do it instead. EEng 03:27, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Are these the knuckle draggers with torches or the knuckle draggers with other objects? I ask because you clearly have lifelong experience in the area.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:02, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Huh? For an admin you don't shine at this kind of repartee. EEng 21:35, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

A bunch of editors added memorials like schools and highways and one editor took them all out, changing the lede in a number of places. A spinout might be ok with consensus, but we create the spinout and then remove the content from the origional while adding a hatnote pointing to the spinout. I agree this repeated removal of valid content across multiple edits borders on vandalism. It's hard to restore the removed content due to intervening edits. Legacypac (talk) 05:00, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• Not a complicated problem. List inclusions are based on the defined criteria for the list. 'Memorials' is a not a great definition criteria because schools, roads, fountains, libraries etc are all named as memorials. Some even have 'memorial' in the name. This is not unique to the US. If the criteria is meant to include 'memorials' in general then there is no issue, if the list is meant to only include things like statues, then it clearly needs to say that. The answer is hold an RFC. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:35, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• I have left a talk page message at WP:MIL about this discussion, because it's their baliwick. We are living in tumultuous times in regards to these memorials, and it isn't going away anytime soon. I agree that an RFC should be conducted on this. I also agree that the size of the list at 215,683 bytes is already too large for some users with older systems to edit. I'm for breaking it up and doing that division in coordination with the Military History project. A lot of the current editing is being done by autoconfirmed users. One way to do this, again in coordination with the WPMIL, is to fully protect the main article, and making a sub-page for editors to work on. But, let's hear from the WPMIL on this. A lot of those folks are not in America, so give them time to respond. — Maile (talk) 22:04, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• I'm not an admin, but here's what I'd do:
  1. Gold-lock this article for a few days until there's consensus for what stays and what goes.
  2. Probably spin off an article about former monuments. pbp 22:10, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Old News please close there is no one arguing about the scope of this page now and many editors are working happily on it. One of the better group editing experiences I've had. It is now by far the most complete and accurate list of its type in existence, having far surpassed the report it was initially built off. There is already Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials and a growing number of pages on individual monuments. This whole ANi topic can be safely closed. Legacypac (talk) 22:29, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:FuzzyCatPotato

FuzzyCatPotato (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a member of the Board of Trustees for the RationalMedia Foundation and has blatantly been involved in conflict of interest editing on the RationalWiki article and on other articles by inserting links to RationalWiki, and I fear he is not here to build an encyclopedia. In January 2017, I noticed a link to Rational-Wiki added to Michel Chossudovsky that I thought was inappropriate, so I removed it per WP:BOLD, and left {{uw-coi}} on his talk page. He reacted defensively, reverting @Fyddlestix: and me when we were trying to remove the inappropriate link. He posted on the talk page, which is fine, and consensus was established per WP:BLPEL. Oddly enough, a community-banned RationalWikian troll known as Keegscee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appeared to interfere in the situation. FuzzyCatPotato once again added a link to Rational-Wiki in July 2017 on the vaginal steaming article. A few days later, I noticed the link and removed it per WP:ELNO but did not notice who added it. I did notice he was the one who posted it when reviewing my own edits in August 2017, so I left an escalated warning template on his talk page about promoting his wiki, following the standard procedure I would follow with any person repeatedly promoting an organization they are affiliated with. FuzzyCatPotato responded extremely defensively and sarcastically, stating "Spamming" I am shaking in my boots, accusing me of being a "Conservapedia editor demanding "respect", implied that he sees this as a war in his edit summary at EL/N, made a blatantly uncivil and disruptive comment on my talk page that he later reverted claiming it was the "wrong website" and later blamed on a friend, and made nonsense edit on his own talk page which he later reverted with the edit summary "fuck off" which is presumably directed at Wikipedians he disagrees with. A large percentage of FuzzyCatPotato's edits are related to Rational-Wiki, he describes his Rational-Wiki account as his "real" account on his user page here, and adding insult to injury is a suspicion of paid editing by @Beetstra:. At least four of the voters in RationalWiki's most recent AfD were affiliated with the website, and if there is ongoing paid editing or meatpuppetry, FuzzyCatPotato is at least involved in it. FuzzyCatPotato's most recent edit was to try and WP:Wikilawyer an excuse for continuing to add R-W links after the matter had previously been discussed, after previously claiming he would not interact with me anymore. I believe FuzzyCatPotato's overall behavior is disruptive and that he should be blocked or banned accordingly. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 01:41, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
FYI, I am unplugging from the situation and Wikipedia as a whole effective immediately (at least for two weeks) due to summer courses, leaving trust in the community to solve this matter. I invite any Wikipedian to WP:TROUT me should I do otherwise. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 02:23, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Frankly, though I would never encourage any editor to remain engaged here when their other obligations are demanding their time, it's less than ideal to make a broad ranging (if apparently actually factually accurate) behavioural complaint against another user and then immediately disengage from the project, since we may require additional information to contextualize and analyze the accusations. If you really cannot edit at all in the next two weeks, I guess that's just where we are at, but I must tell you that it greatly decreases the liklihood that definitive action will be taken to restrain the editor, even if they are genuinely disruptive. It's also not impossible that your own involvement might ome under scrutiny while you are not here to defend your involvement, just to give you a head's up.

That procedural observation made, I do see the problem being raised here with this clearly COI editor. There seems to be a clear lack of perspective and respect for Wikipedia's content standards, where they conflict with what this user considers to be the WP:TRUTH of matters. Of even more concern are the PA's/trolling, particularly where they are at their most WP:BATTLEGROUND, as with this edit, and the following sequence of comments/reversions, no matter the textbook Wikipedia:My little brother did it claim. More digging will be necesary here, but already I am inclined to believe a topic ban may be the minimum required to address the WP:NOTHERE, WP:COI, and WP:DISRUPTIVE behaviours.

An SPI is the next logical step, though, since an indef will be the almost certain result if it turns out that there is a sock party going on here, and there's no point in debating the seriousness of the other behaviours and what sanction should be applied to prevent them, if the indef for abuse of multiple accounts is going to be the ultimate outcome anyway. Since you are the most concerned editor here and the one with the most familiarity with the purported disruption/socking/gaming, I'd encourage you to either put together the basic evidence for the SPI for us to consider--or even file it yourself, if you are confident that there is enough to make the WP:DUCK argument, and assuming you have the time before taking your break. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:32, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

My only involvement here was at Michel Chossudovsky - the incident there ([69][70][71][72]), while odd, was eventually resolved and is pretty stale now. These, much more recent edits [73][74] are also pretty odd, but Fuzzy has self-reverted both of them and apologized. So assuming that we AGF and Fuzzy has learned their lesson there (ie, no more letting your friends use your account, no more decidedly un-funny "joke" posts) I'm not sure there's anything to be done there either.

The core of the problem seems to be the - thus far unresolved - question of whether RW can be used as an EL. See two separate ongoing discussions here and here, which (to my surprise) don't seem to have a clear consensus just yet. Personally I'd think it's obvious that RW is wholly inappropriate for use as a source or EL anywhere on wikipedia, but I guess that's neither here nor there. Those discussions should be allowed to conclude and both FuzzyCatPotato and PCHS-NJROTC need to abide by that consensus, whatever the result. Assuming they do that, there should be no further cause/reason for further drama or disruption here. Fyddlestix (talk) 04:59, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, regardless of the prudence of using those links on those articles, if PCHS's concerns about sock/meat puppetry turn out to be verifiable, you can bet there will be blocks. Snow ^{let's rap} 05:15, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Frankly, I was just plain confused by that bit. Where is the evidence? Keegscee is mentioned above but isn't FCP, and it's not surprising that people active on RW would turn up to !vote to keep an article on their own site. A COI issue, sure, but it doesn't mean they're socks. Am I missing something? All I see here so far is innuendo... Fyddlestix (talk) 05:24, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• The situation is more balanced than may first appear. User:PCHS-NJROTC proclaims the editor is a member of Conservapedia, and has been since 2009. For anyone new here, the folks at Conservapedia and Rational-Wiki have, shall we say, diametrically opposing views. FuzzyCatPotato has a COI which the user acknowledges (example). However, PCHS-NJROTC's campaign to oppose Rational-Wiki has exactly the same COI. I noticed the fuss at a couple of pages on my watchlist and my guess is that FuzzyCatPotato has allowed exasperation to gain the upper hand a couple of times, and that is why a couple of recent diffs in the OP show silly edits. However, the shotgun OP is very weak—why make me look at Special:Contributions/Keegscee only to discover the user was indeffed over seven years ago? Johnuniq (talk) 05:17, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

[COIN: RW editor, RW mod, RW boardmember]

The above complaint is multifaceted; let's do line-by-line.

Conflict of interest:

• This is unrefutable. I have an obvious conflict of interest. Indeed, I note so in virtually every post I've made to this website.
• However, I do my best to avoid WP:NOTHERE in terms of WP:NPOV. Example 1: When PCHS-NJROTC asked for more negative coverage from reliable sources in RationalWiki, I stepped up and added three such sources, for which PCHS-NJROTC commended me. Example 2: PCHS-NJROTC suggested discussion move from Talk:Vaginal steaming to WP:ELN and I did so.
• However, I think my COI is sufficiently strong that I shouldn't add any links to RationalWiki outside the RationalWiki (and possibly Conservapedia?) articles. I will not do so, regardless of what WP:ANI decides.

Sockpuppetry:

• User:DefinitelyNotFCP is not me: (I reverted them from adding RationalWiki.org, b/c consensus at Talk:Michel_Chossudovsky#RationalWiki_link was against.)
• User:Keegscee is not me: (SPI finding)
• If PCHS-NJROTC wishes, I welcome an SPI.

Disruption:

• WP:BATTLE: PCHS-NJROTC cites this edit summary, which states: "must every comment be another salvo in your war?" For context, I recommend this comment. I was and am annoyed by PCHS-NJROTC's use of discussion policy as a way of "telling people off" (eg, [75][76]). PCHS-NJROTC added a comment for no reason other than to say "nuh uh, YOU'RE the real bludgeoner!"
• Wikipedia:My little brother did it: PCHS-NJROTC points to [77][78] and [79][80] as disruptive. PCHS-NJROTC clearly does not accept my (admittedly unprovable and thus flimsy) explanation & apology. From the viewpoint of ANI, this is probably good grounds for a short-term block. *shrug* So be it.

Paid editing:

• ??? Honestly not sure where this comes from. I'm on the (nonprofit!) RationalWiki board -- we don't have the money to pay one, much less multiple, Wikipedia-writers. But if PCHS-NJROTC has evidence more solid than an evidence-free assertion by another Wikipedia user, then they may go right ahead.

Wikilawyering:

• I don't know what this refers to.

A final note:

Though PCHS-NJROTC does not note so here, PCHS-NJROTC has a substantial personal bias against RationalWiki. In his own words, PCHS-NJROTC is "biased against their wiki" to the degree that he is "against almost everything Rational-Wiki promotes". In PCHS-NJROTC's words, RationalWiki is my "mothership"; a "hate site"; the cause of "numerous fecal hurricanes on Wikipedia" for "the last seven years"; content created by teenagers -- indeed, "most of them are juvenile"; and "more like E{ncyclopedia }D{ramatica}" (a low blow). This bias led to PCHS-NJROTC falsely accusing User:David Gerard of WP:COI for a copyright issue with Freeman on the land. This bias was also why I initially dismissed PCHS-NJROTC's concerns on my talkpage.

Summary:

A short-term block for disruption to my own and PCHS-NJROTC's user talk pages is probably in order, as is a ban on adding links to rationalwiki.org to other articles. All else is baseless.

Thanks. FuzzyCatPotato (talk) 07:35, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment: Having followed up on the context of each diff the OP provided, I haven't been able to find evidence of any recent socking associated with the present contest of wills. Yes, there are some extremely stale issues associated with numerous editors with an association to RationalWiki, but nothing connecting with FCP. FCP does have a rather large COI and could arguably stand to contribute to other areas if they want to prove that they are WP:HERE, rather than focusing on an organization for which they sit on the Board of Trustees, but they have not hidden the conflict and no evidence has been submitted to prove they are being disruptive to the level necessitating sanction. Those trolling comments certainly push the line, and I think FCP ought to read WP:COMPROMISED, because they very easily could have ended up with their primary account blocked (still could, technically speaking). It also calls into question just how responsible and professional an organization RationalWiki is, that one of its board members is either publicly trolling here or had a buddy who was willing to such, that they let use their account. I'd not want to have to explain that to the Board, if they became ware of this. But that said, and for our purposes on this project, I am willing to AGF on those couple of bizarre comments and I don't think they would amount to sanction in any event.

Under normal circumstances I would say we could stand to wait a little while to let PCHS-NJROTC substantiate their claims a little more. But since that user has made it clear that they planned to check out of Wikipedia for a couple of weeks starting immediately, that doesn't seem like a fruitful approach. Given the ambiguous and unsubstantiated nature of the claims made against FCP, no likely further involvement from the OP, the perspective of other editors (who are much more neutral than either the OP or FCP appear to be) who present an interpretation that suggests this is at least a two-way street, and the fairly even-tempered mea cupla of FCP, it is my opinion that this thread should be closed fairly quickly, with a thorough trouting for both editors, but probably no other action required. Snow ^{let's rap} 08:23, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

(RMF board member here) The complainant is on a mission against RW, as detailed above. His spurious COI complaint against me was because I reverted a violation of copyright on his part. This complaint is more of the same, which is why the cites are so shoddy and spurious. I suggest a neutral editor examine the evidence and close it — Preceding unsigned comment added by David Gerard (talk • contribs)
I am going to go ahead and reply since several people seem to desire my response, but I don't desire to spend the day watching this. Blocks are preventative, not punative. To clarify, the paid editing suspicion was raised by @Beestra: and he is the one that would need to provide insight on that. I am not saying that FCP is Keegscee, but they are from the same site and I fully believe the Rational-Wiki community collaborates to influence Wikipedia, as supported by the fact that another board member came to his defense in this discussion. There's also a description of an interesting organization that sounds an awful lot like a meatpuppetry ring on Rational-Wiki's article on Wikipedia. Some people have pointed out that I am a Conservapedian, and while that is correct, I have been a Wikipedian longer, have made more contributions to Wikipedia, I learned about Conservapedia only through Rational-Wikian shenanigans on Wikipedia, and unlike FCP, I do not go around promoting Conservapedia on Wikipedia except to acknowledge my involvement on my talk page. People bring up my dislike for Rational-Wiki, but honestly who here does like groups who have been responsible for disruptive behavior? I think bringing that into the equation here is a clear indication that some people think this is a WP:BATTLE, but I'm frankly not interested in a war with them; I'm interested in the integrity of the encyclopedia. FCP has acknowledged that his actions are block worthy, but he has also promised to change his behavior. Blocks are preventative, not punative, so I think the question is whether we are to believe he will change. Based on his response, I would recommend WP:TROUT for now per WP:AGF, possibly a topic ban, and an immediate revisitation of the issue if he does not change. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 12:51, 17 August 2017 (UTC) Something else I am going to add is that the first {{uw-coi}} template was honestly to help Fuzzy, not to slap him/her. In round two of Fuzzy's links, I was (and still am) annoyed, and I'm annoyed that he would push the issue as a COI editor. I don't have a problem with Fuzzy being here as a RationalWikian, but he needs to follow our rules and assimilate to the culture of Wikipedia. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 13:15, 17 August 2017 (UTC) (No smart ass pun intended; I just realized the similarities to political arguments)

"There's also a description of an interesting organization that sounds an awful lot like a meatpuppetry ring on Rational-Wiki's article on Wikipedia." You can in fact link to RW to demonstrate your claims about RW, you know. So please back up such claims. (I asked you to do so when you tried it on with your copyright violation, and you didn't then either.) You have yet to make a supported claim for action, and appear to be attempting to cover up such with sheer weight of verbiage. You have supplied nothing to show that FCP did anything wrong, and you really need to do so. Supply actual evidence, rather than piling on more claims - David Gerard (talk) 16:45, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Here and here. I don't like messing around with links when editing from mobile devices. I know very little about that organization in all honesty, but I am skeptical of any non-WMF/non-community based efforts to get people to edit Wikipedia a certain way, and Rational-Wiki seems to be promoting it, or at least in favor of it. You seem awfully defensive of your fellow board member who is here because he did something undeniably (and admittedly on his part) stupid, David. 74.5.231.189 (talk) 17:43, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

The accusation that Guerrilla Skeptics on Wikipedia is in any way associated with Rationalwiki is a frequent one, but in several years of it I know of zero people involved in both. (As per the second link.) Unless you can actually produce some. Also, there's no evidence Guerrilla Skeptics on Wikipedia has done anything wrong and that there would be anything wrong with being associated with them.

You're still not substantiating your claim at all, just stacking unsubstantiated accusations even higher - David Gerard (talk) 19:30, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. All those links do us provide coverage of Wikipedia's own policies from a "skeptics" point of view and celebrate the fact that the MEDRS/scientific contet policies align so well with their objectives already. They do not organize or encourage gaming, vandalism, trolling, or disruption in any way. There's a tempest in a teapot discussion of whether or not another group entirely had edit warred on a single article, four years ago, but zero incitement to replicate that that behaviour--in fact, the very tone of the coverage seems to suggest that the editors of that Rational Wiki article would disapprove of such a thing. Frankly, offsite speculation about a four-year-old edit war that doesn't relate to the present dispute in the slightest doesn't much interest me. If someone wants to go check out Rupert Sheldrake to make sure disruption is not an ongoing issue there, that's fine, but I see no way in which those links provide even indirect, tangential or circumstantial support for the claims they are being affixed to regarding FCP or an alleged rational wiki conspiracy.

It seems increasingly likely that there is no hard evidence at hand to support that notion, which seems to be pure supposition on PCHS's part, based on the fact that there are a large number of editors from RationalWiki commenting on the article about RationalWiki--but, as Fyddlestix points out above, there would hardly be anything surprising about that being the case, and it doesn't require a sock/meat conspiracy to come about. Frankly, I'm beginning to feel like we are playing a shell game every time PCHS is asked to substantiate their claims and I strongly feel they should consider WP:DROPPING THE STICK on this (and better yet would be a quick close by someone who has not yet commented here) before this starts to enter into WP:BOOMERANG territory. Snow ^{let's rap} 01:08, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I would second closing it per WP:AGF + WP:TROUT anyway because the accused acknowledges that he needs to adjust his behavior in COI editing and refrain from trolling or allowing other people to use his account to troll, which are the chief issues prompting this thread. It would indeed be difficult to prove WP:MEATPUPPETRY (the paid editing issue was raised by someone else, I have no idea what prompted him to believe that, and he has yet to comment here). PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 01:29, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

A few things on your comments there: First off, there is no "accused" here; this isn't a trial in even the most remote sense. Second, What FCP actually said was that both your behaviour and theirs could have been less bombastic. I'm inclined to agree; the community is having to AGF with regard to both your approaches. Lastly, while you keep invoking Beetstra's name here as the source of the socking allegations, that user didn't file this report and hasn't commented here. You are the sole editor putting forward this vague assertion of an off-project conspiracy to vandalize the project (which claim you have repeated even through your most recent comments below), which you further say FCP must definitely be involved with, but without providing anything that looks even remotely like what we would consider evidence of such a strong claim. You can't vaguely cite another user from ages ago about some half-formed suspicion which they are not even themselves forwarding and then expect it to be taken seriously as context that proves that we should be closely scrutinizing the activity of another editor. That's not how this process works.

If you have anything concrete to suggest that FCP has socked or coordinated organized vandalism, gaming or disruption (either through on-project channels or off), then by all means supply it in the form of diffs, user comparisons, external links, or any other form of evidence used in the usually methodology for establishing these things. If you can't do that (and it seems pretty likely at this point that you have nothing that is compelling at this level), then I agree with others who have commented above that you are basically peddling innuendo without evidence here, and you should drop this line of discussion. Yes, you're right, it would be extremely difficult to prove meatpuppetry in this instance, but that doesn't mean you get to just make/imply such accusations again and again without evidence. I suggest your further commentary here avoid it altogether; you can't continue to introduce it into the discussion with a sly reference to an editor who is not even involved here and expect us to not notice that its you who is implying this supposed conspiracy without any real evidence. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:49, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• As an uninvolved administrator, the impression I get from this thread is that a Conservapedia admin has crossed paths with a RationalWiki Trustee, both of which projects happen to have opposite views, and goals fundamentally incompatible with this project, and yet this neutral project happens to have become the site of their battleground. Unfortunately, we can't preventatively action users unless they've obviously violated our policies or consensuses, and this does not appear to be that kind of situation. It appears to be two ideologically-opposed users trying to get each other suppressed. Short of a two-way interaction ban, I don't see how we can realistically take either side, and would advise both users to quite simply leave each other alone as there is apparently no way you will be agreeing anytime soon. If you're really that unable to avoid each other, on this big project, I fear the community will have to impose a restriction. Swarm ♠ 01:42, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I could care less about getting into a fight or winning a fight with anyone from that site on Wikipedia (as a matter of fact, I find their WP:BATTLEGROUND reactions to be annoying). I could care less if FCP is blocked as long as he doesn't act disruptively (and those trolling edits are irrefutably disruptive, regardless of who committed them with Fuzzy's account). I actually would rather avoid indefinitely blocking him if at all possible because I think he will get mad and create socks if he is blocked indefinitely like Keegscee did. I just don't want people from Rational-Wiki (or Conservapedia, or any other organization for that matter) introducing links or content that are at odds with Wikipedia policy (WP:RS, WP:ELNO, WP:BLPEL, WP:NPOV, WP:ADV, WP:SPAM, WP:OR etc.), and I don't want them vandalizing or trolling either. The integrity of the encyclopedia is the top concern for me as a Wikipedian; Conservapedia, my own ideology, self glorification, etc is second to that when I edit here. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 01:55, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm also going to add that I think you hit the nail on the head when you said both sites' objectives are fundamentally incompatible with Wikipedia's neutral encyclopedia project. That's what brings us here today, the addition of links to RationalWiki escalating to a point that I have felt that a RationalWikian was being disruptive. Although I might not get involved in the situation if only to avoid off-Wikipedia consequences, a Conservapedian doing the same thing would be just as wrong. I think the simple solution would be to just spamblacklist both sites with a whitelist exception for the links on the sites' own articles. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 02:10, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

As James Baldwin put it, "I can't believe what you say because I see what you do." You've had a thing about the Rational Wiki folk for a while now, with spurious COI reports, block shopping, and most of the other sorts of behavior we see from editors who let strongly-held views cloud their judgment. In light of your recent efforts the "I'm not interested in picking a fight" line rings hollow. A focused topic ban on Rational Wiki and its editors would spare the rest of us this ongoing dispute and ultimately would be for your own good. It would remove the temptation to go too far in what is clearly a hot-button topic for you while allowing you to contribute in other areas. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:12, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I do take issue with Rational-Wiki, just as I take issue with blatant vandals (and they are known in reliable sources as a pro-vandalism site, at least historically), but I'm not interested in a fight. Certain people make it into a fight. The recent issue with the link at vaginal steaming should have been a simple matter of a link that violates policy being removed and User:FuzzyCatPotato reading the policies I provided to him, but instead he decided to respond in a smart ass way (ooooh, I'm shaking in my boots, to paraphrase). I have made very few edits to the RationalWiki or Conservapedia articles, whereas FCP has made many. Spam blacklist both Rational-Wiki and Conservapedia, or issue a decree regarding RationalWiki and Conservapedia editors making edits related to either of the two subjects per WP:COI (as Swarm points out, it's a two way street) and my interest in having anything to do with those sites' coverage on Wikipedia will vanish, and at that point I would have no opposition to a topic-ban. Unless consensus is established in favor of the link at vaginal steaming (which I do not foresee; it will either end in consensus to remove or no consensus), you bet I would object a topic ban if there's nothing in place to stop people from adding links to R-W and Conservapedia, and I would appeal to WP:ARBCOM about it. I don't care about a fight and never have, I care about maintaining the integrity of the encyclopedia, and as supported by Keegscee's case, at least some RationalWikians have been a threat to that. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 02:47, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

If your interest is in the content outcomes and not in suppressing the voice of an opponent, then I suggest you take the content matters to any one of the numerous forums that can handle said issues. There are certainly spaces where you can propose that Rational Wiki be blacklisted. I don't give you great odds based on such a broad-ranging proscription, especially if the evidence you provide (alleging that allowing links to that Wiki are inherently disruptive) have a similar quality to the "evidence" you've provided of behavioural problems in your opponent above. But the option remains open to you to make such a proposal. And really, it is probably your only option, since most the community who have responded here (who were previously uninvolved in the dispute) seem to be in agreement that this is a content dispute, at its core. Snow ^{let's rap} 04:01, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

There's on-going threads at WP:EL /N and Talk:Vaginal steaming. There's a few WP:USEFUL and WP:ILIKEIT arguments, as well as a WP:OTHERSTUFF/WP:HARMLESS argument, but everything else points to WP:ELNO. I don't engage with the Rational-Wikians about it (outside of necessity) or try to start fights over it, but I have been scrubbing blatant violations of WP:RS and WP:BLPEL and likely violations of WP:ELNO for seven years with no objections that I can remember except from Rational-Wikians. The exception is the one I removed from Freemen on the land, which I removed because I didn't see the correlation between that article (or previous versions) and the Rational-Wiki article (or previous versions), but since the community disagreed, I dropped the stick (even though I personally think the article needs to be firebombed and rewritten since it is apparently a paraphrase of a non-neutral publication with admitted incompatibilities with Wikipedia policies). I'm sure it's obvious that I'm agitated at the moment, but it's frustrating to see someone who refuses (until this AN/I post) to back off per WP:COI. If the community took issue with my removal of the links, I'd have stopped years ago, but until now, there's been almost nothing but support.

I brought this to AN/I mainly because his (or his friends') blatant troll posts and incivility were troubling to me as I worried that the situation was going to escalate, but he has taken responsibility for his actions since the posting of this AN/I and I am content with accepting that, unless he engages in more blatant disruption. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 04:28, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• I just want to chime in that I've been involved in this, and PCHS-NJROTC started out on a great first foot; they were engaging and interesting and civil almost to a fault. That lasted about a day. Things went downhill from there. He brought up creationism in a discussion about the relative accuracy and usefulness of RW, proceeded to argue about it, and try to win me over, then (I'm guessing when it became clear that he wasn't going to win me over) proceeded to accuse me of proselytizing "anti-Christian nonsense". After that, he proceeded to berate me for beating a dead horse when I was providing some clarification to another editor, condescendingly lecturing me about "responding to every comment that disagrees with" me, and then immediately start bludgeoning another editor and misrepresent the process of the discussion in an obvious attempt to sway any closer (the correction I later added was to but one false statement among several). I started out thinking I'd met a great new Wikipedian, and by the end of it just felt disgusted with the whole thread, as well as the editor. So I can't speak to whether FCW has been disruptive at all, but I can tell you this: PCHS has been. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 04:33, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I have to agree that we both deserve a good WP:TROUTing for allowing that off-topic rabbit hole to continue like that. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 12:04, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support indefinite topic ban for PCHS-NJROTC from all RationalWiki topics and from commenting about the actions of editors that PCHS-NJROTC has publicly acknowledged as being associated with RationalWiki. Plenty of people are available to clean up unwarranted external links, and PCHS-NJROTC's attention is disruptive and not required. This is per Shock Brigade Harvester Boris above. Johnuniq (talk) 06:19, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I have an idea for a compromise that will settle this, and my proposal will be forth-coming this afternoon when I have time to put it together. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 12:04, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• I support a topic ban on RW for PCHS-NJROTC. The fact that he is still commenting here after claiming to have pressing RL matters to attend to strongly suggests that they are too emotionally involved to be able to contribute neutrally in that subject area. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:44, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic banFrom all Rationalwiki discussions and topics on Wikipedia. It's clear that PCHS-NJROTC has a problem with them, but the perceived issues are all in his head. Bringing it here and continuing on, like the ARBCOM proposal below shows the need for such a topic ban. Valeince (talk) 23:54, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
• Weak Support I felt this response was an overreaction at first, and there was not significant enough disruption here to warrant a topic ban, and so I hoped that the thread would be closed before the matter went farther, as it arguably could have been days ago. But the ongoing WP:IDHT on these issues, and especially the bizarre proposal below have swayed me to the position that this editor is going to keep worrying at this bone and treating this topic area as a WP:BATTLEGROUND. Their assertions (that there are mass disruption issues relating to editors who are connected to a Wiki that they are clearly ideologically opposed to) have not been made alongside sufficient (or really any) evidence to substantiate these claims, and yet they continue to propose community inquiry/action against particular editors and now vaguely-defined groups of editors. At this point, a topic ban is looking like the most narrow and targeted means of moving this user along, hopefully towards some more productive work. Snow ^{let's rap} 02:18, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I felt this response was an overreaction at first, and there was not significant enough disruption here to warrant a topic ban This has been my experience, as well. I watched this thread evolve for a bit before I jumped in, because I was unsure as to whether the exchange between I and PCHS would even help. But eventually, I decided that it provided important contextual information about PCHS's state of mind wrt the original content dispute: It seemed less rational and more ideological, especially after he accused me of trying to proselytize to him. I felt much the same way about the proposed topic-ban; it seems like overreaction, given that PCHS certainly seems to be pushing for what he believes is right. But as we all should remain aware (and which I completely forgot at first), we're not here to do what is right, but to do what is best for an encyclopedia. It was seeing the proposal he made in response to Johnuniq that 'set my head straight', as it were. It's just so obviously an attempt at trying to steer the discussion away from him, and back towards those he feels should be punished. After reading the proposal below, it strongly reinforces my belief that what is best for both PCHS and WP as a whole is for PCHS to stay out of any discussion or article concerning RationalWiki. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:18, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support I can't add anything to what Snow Rise has said, really. PCHS has, unfortunately, dragged this from a simple point of discussion to a demonstration, in full public, that he cannot edit neutrally and non-disruptively in this area. I wish he hadn't done that, but now that he has, I can't see an alternative to supporting the indefinite topic ban. Sorry. -- Begoon 06:49, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Compromise solution (probably will require ArbCom intervention, probably best to wait for the on-going content dispute to conclude first though)

There seems to be a general agreement that disputes between RationalWikians and Conservapedians are not beneficial to the project, and as Swarm pointed out, both Conservapedia and Rational-Wiki are incompatible with Wikipedia. While both Conservapedians and Rational-Wikians could be productive contributors to this encyclopedia project, the really have a WP:COI when editing anything to do with Conservapedia or Rational-Wiki, and it is easy for a WP:BATTLEGROUND situation to spawn. For example, the Rational-Wiki article's first AfD was weighted by at least five Rational-Wikians (Weasleoid, Nx, Tmtoulouse, Huw Powell, and Super Hamster), two additional people I think I recognize as Rational-Wikians (R. Fiend and Sid 3050) and at least four Conservapedians (TK-CP, PCHS-NJROTC, Nobs03, and Geoff Plourde). Additionally, these admittedly biased websites have no legitimate place in Wikipedia besides their respective articles and brief mentions on user pages. Therefore, I propose:

• Known Rational-Wikians and Conservapedians will not edit anything related to Rational-Wiki or Conservapedia or mention those sites anywhere on Wikipedia except their own user page.
• Any user found to deliberately conceal their activity at these sites to avoid scrutiny will be subject to blocking.
• Non-RationalWikians and Non-Conservapedians will be limited to one post per discussion on the talk pages of these site's articles (to discourage WP:BLUDGEONing) and a 1RR will be enforced.
• (Assuming there is not consensus to keep linking to R-W) No editor will add links to rationalwiki.org or Conservapedia.com except on those site's articles.

PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 20:13, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

My suggestion: topic-ban the single editor who is throwing around unfounded accusations and piling more on top when asked to justify his claims, which would be you as documented above - David Gerard (talk) 21:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

This seems wholly unnecessary - and completely unfair to any RW or Conservapedia editors who might be out there and manage not to cause this kind of disruption. As long as individual editors comport themselves well here, there's no problem to fix. So I particularly object to the bit about "concealing their activity" on other sites. If they're editors in good standing and don't cause disruption, their activity on other sites is none of our f-ing business.

All that is required here is for the two (maybe 3?) of you to behave yourselves: don't post external links that are inappropriate, don't make personal attacks, don't use wikipedia as a battleground. If any of you can't do that, then the problem can be solved with topic and/or interaction bans. Fyddlestix (talk) 23:13, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

PCHS, to put it bluntly, this is never going to happen. We don't penalize or presume the worst of our fellow contributors on this project because of their alleged affiliations, political or otherwise. We can, and will, sanction specific users as necessary to prevent further disruption in a target area, but only after they have demonstrated their inability to contribute constructively in that area. What we don't do (or do anything remotely like) is create editorial restrictions for some vaguely defined ideological class of editor, based on either expressed beliefs or their status as volunteers with other groups. We absolutely and without question will not be digging into the off-site activities of our volunteers in order to try to enforce such an ideological filter on their activities here. And frankly, the fact that you thought this might actually be a viable proposal here suggests that you desperately need to familiarize yourself with some of our community's policies on the degree to which you are allowed to reference another user's off-project identity in either content or behavioural matters. In fact, if your identification of any of the users above stemmed from anything but their own self-identification here on Wikipedia (for example, if you are linking the activities of RationalWiki/Conservapedia accounts with community members here at Wikipedia) then you are already grossly in violation of WP:OUTTING and this needs to stop now.

This is really unfortunate; you might have avoided the WP:BOOMERANG here at any of a number of points the last couple of days by simply quitting while you were ahead and backing away from your self-defined battleground here. As it stands, you are now facing a likely topic ban from this area. If you continue to list users here for their offsite connections, even where they have not as yet made any kind of policy violation, you will probably end up with a longterm block. Snow ^{let's rap} 02:43, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Also, I was just about to ping each of the users you mentioned above. It's absolutely the last thing I wanted to do in a situation like this, given it could further swamp a thread that should have been resolved within an hour. But insofar as some of these editors may have been WP:OUTTED by your mentions here they would have had a right to have those comments revdelled, if they chose. But before typing out the ping template, I decided to follow up on their user pages, to see how many might have self-identifed their affiliations there. Which is how I discovered that of the nine editors you mention (as proof that this area is especially susceptible to disruption and requires extreme preventive measures), not one seems to have edited Wikipedia in the last couple of years. Six of the nine haven't edited Wikipedia in seven or more years; not one of the users you identify as a RationalWiki editor has edited here in the last seven years. Your behaviour and outlook here is beginning to look bizarre and WP:Battleground in the extreme. Snow ^{let's rap} 03:09, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

The dispute on linking to RationalWiki (or Conservapedia) should be discussed elsewhere. PCHS-NJROTC appears to be voluntarily suggesting that he be topic-banned from pages on "other wikis", and is close to boomerang action regardless. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:24, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Duplicate articles

Not sure if anything is wrong here, but there's the possibility that the duck may be clearing its throat in preparation for a quack: This image was uploaded to Commons yesterday, just 30 minutes later a different editor uploaded a complete biography using that image to Mohammed Muntari Tageo, 5 minutes after that, the same user made a copy of the article at Mohammed muntari tageo. Working back to WP from the Commons user there were also user pages that looked like article biographies as well. As I said, I'm not sure if this is anything more than a duplicate article problem, an article being reposted after deletion or something else. - X201 (talk) 08:23, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Carmaker1 aggressive edit summaries, again

Hi. Despite two previous incidents on the same issue (1), (2), Carmaker1 is still making aggressive Edit Summaries:

• "I am tired of ignorant, that remain too thick to realize production dates have NOTHING to do with MODEL years that are merely designations, NOT timelines based in real time. STOP using them for timelines or I'll simply report you for disruptive editing"
• "To clueless IP user 99.42...., please don't anymore unproductive changes to this article"
• "Stop wasting my time"
• "As usual SteveofC00 has an lazy inability to understand model years and thinks..."
• "Stupid wording. Why can't some of you figure out how to use prepositions..."
• "Miss me with that "citation needed" nonsense 1292"
• "1292simon it is so obvious that"
• "It is not "confusing", I don't give damn about..."
• "Some of you continue to stubbornly ignorant of model years usage"
• "Stupid vandal"
• "I really shouldn't be saying, but is utterly disappointing that there are users who are allowed contribute such contradictory information. They have no business editing here, if such simple info cannot be submitted correctly"
• "Editing things like this is a waste of time"
• "Please get the damn timeline right. I was totally thrown off, by the inability of someone else to CORRECTLY list the..."

I think something should be done to stop the personal attacks and hostile environment for other editors. 1292simon (talk) 09:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Well in the past few days, I've written "This article is crap. Time for at least a decent intro" and "not notable my arse", neither of which were directed towards any editor but more an exasperated sigh before I tackled some improvements to that article. I need context. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:58, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi Ritchie. I don't want to get into whether its ok to slag off an article or not, but either way the hostility directly at others editors is a more serious issue, I think.
Regarding the context, the examples above are all quite recent, so the context can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Carmaker1. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 08:41, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Carmaker1 is getting repeatedly fed up with new users and IPs making either factual errors in articles or changing contentious content away from what was agreed by consensus. I don't know what you want me to do other than just remind him to dial it back a bit? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:39, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Carmaker1 has far more patience than I. I find the "aggressiveness" understandable under the circumstances, and I find the complainant's accusations of "personal attacks" to be absolute horseshit. This is a frivolous impeachment, and a waste of the community's time. Joefromrandb (talk) 14:40, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Unilateral undo of a consensus move

A couple of weeks ago, there was a discussion to move Nagorno-Karabakh Republic to Artsakh Republic, as the country had changed names. Consensus was obtained and the move was approved on August 7. Then people industriously performed the needed changes and moves.

Today, Norvikk (talk · contribs) appears out of nowhere and decides to move them all back. When I complained on their talk page, they reverted me, so now I come here.

I note that this is not Norvikk's first brush with edit warring, nor their first time declining to participate in any discussion; an edit summary from them, [81], translates as "Nobody wants to participate in your "fucking discussion", maybe that's why you can not discuss it." So, they're charming and willing to work with others.

I'd like more eyes on this, both because we probably need to deal with this user in a way other than "pretty please," and also because this is a lot of busy work they've created for us. --Golbez (talk) 13:50, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

They have now vandalized my user page. --Golbez (talk) 13:59, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

And they blanked this section. Surely we're at the level of not-here? --Golbez (talk) 14:00, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• Totally NOTQUITEHERE, I think. This and this is actually consistent with this ediotor's M.O.- that of a blatant IDHT-unilateral-MyWayOrTheHighway attitude. Overiding and ignoring a community-established consensu? Dictating the contents of another editor's user page? Dictating what may or may not be posted at a community discussion board? No way is that a collegiate behavioural pattern, and one way or another, it needs to be discouraged immediately. — fortunavelut luna 14:07, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I see User:Floquenbeam has successfully attempted to discourage that behaviour for at least 72 hours. — fortunavelut luna 14:09, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

They've contributed a lot to en.wiki, so I don't think NOTHERE applies. But this is clearly disruptive behavior (the moves, plus screwing with Golbez's user page, plus blanking this section), so I've blocked for 3 days to prevent further disruption. I don't think this solves the problem of this thread; we should decide what to do at the end of three days, and we should decide if the block needs to be longer to prevent re-reverting the moves (which I assume are going to be fixed by then) when the block expires. This block is only a temporary solution to the immediate disruption. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:09, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, I prefered the NOTQUITEHERE to the other ;) It's odd though. See, they've been a useful member of the community for 2¾ years, with no blocks (as touched on above) and sound editing, it seems. Then this February went on a mad 3RR one, and now this. I wonder if there's something going on we could find out from them? That, of course, would need asking... — fortunavelut luna 14:28, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• If we are assuming that 99.53.112.186 is the same as the registered user, there have been CheckUser blocks on that IP address, so it's probably worth while to get a CheckUser involved. It's an AT&T Lightspeed IP address and could be dynamic, so that's something that will need to be taken into consideration. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 14:27, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

You're misunderstanding; that IP helped by reverting the disruption on this page, and actually has a long history of good work. No one thinks that IP is Norvikk. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:40, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

176.181.72.89

It seems that 176.181.72.89 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been committing cross-wiki sneaky vandalism since May 2017. All of the IP's edits were reverted by other users. Could someone please block the IP? Thanks, 153.206.109.8 (talk) 15:44, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Don't forget to inform the user of the ANI case, I have done so this time, but in the future it is important to inform a user of an ANI case as soon as you report them. Tornado chaser (talk) 16:01, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Possible Edit War

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Amazinganime4&diff=795981876&oldid=793631046

I have to complain in the strongest possible terms about user Amazinganime4, who continually and without any real reason changes or mis-edits my contributions to sections of LIST OF POKEMON: SUN AND MOON EPISODES. The edits he or she does are minor but unnecessary and demonstrate that he or she possibly does not use English as a primary language. I have asked this user to desist and have informed him/her that I would bring this matter to your attention, but have apparently been ignored.TonyPS214 18:49, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Checking... ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:08, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Edits and content aside: the messages you left on Amazinganime4's talk page here and here look to demonstrate behaviors consistent with ownership of content; Amazinganime4's edits to the article include simple changes to numbers and grammar (diff), and your first message stated how you've "run out of patience" with the user (even though you have not communicated with this user before) and proceeded to tell the user to stay away from your changes. This is not how Wikipedia works; there is no such thing as ownership of content. All editors are equally welcome and encouraged to contribute to any and all content on Wikipedia. Absolutely nobody on Wikipedia has special or more control or "rights" to edit content than anybody else. If the information that the user is modifying is not correct, that is a different issue and this should be discussed on the article's talk page. But telling someone to "buzz off" because they're modifying something you've added or are working on is not acceptable and goes against Wikipedia's principle of complete and total open collaboration and expansion to it's content. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:02, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

TonyPS214 made a report to WP:3RRN about this case; I have declined it since there's no 3RR violation and the report was poorly formed anyway. I also reverted TonyPS214's most recent undo at the Pokemon page in question and reverted his undo of the other user's blanking of their talk page. only (talk) 15:09, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Accusations of vandalism-only account and being a troll

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Joseph2302 recently filed this report claiming my account to be a vandalism-only account. He was then enabled by admin Floquenbeam (who previously told me "fuck you, asshole"), departing with "If you and he want to argue/fight/try to get each other blocked/etc, be my guest" despite me not having done anything wrong. Joseph2302 then closed the discussion calling me a "troll". I realise that some admins aren't doing anything to help me, but I'd like to hope that at least one of you out there would actually do something about this. Incidentally, Joseph2302 has deliberately vandalised Ipswich Town F.C. in the past (I'll need to work to find that diff). The Rambling Man (talk) 19:14, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

In what way did Floquenbeam "enable" me? And your block log clearly shows you're a disruptive editor. Yes I've made mistakes in the past (I moved Ipswich Town F.C to Tractor scum), but there's no evidence that I'm a disruptive editor unlike you. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:18, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Another accusation of being a troll. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:25, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

TRM: Ignoring and moving on and away from this editor...have you tried that? -- ψλ ● ✉ 19:28, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Winkelvi I don't go anywhere near this user. I deliberately ignore it since its deliberate vandalism (which went completely unaddressed), now two or three personal attacks (which are going completely unaddressed). Why is this my doing? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

This is the guy who was told by User:Newyorkbrad after initiating a bizarre ANI thread against User:Ritchie333 in May to "not ever do anything like that again." It seems he has not heeded this warning.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:29, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Joseph2302: Unless I am missing something, I don't see anything wrong done by TRM. All I see is you violating WP:NPA, WP:HARASS and WP:AGF numerous times, and then disrupting noticeboards (aka WP:NEEDSMOARDRAMA). nihlus kryik (talk) 19:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I've blocked Joseph2302 for 36 hours. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 19:37, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Jauerback he is still making personal attacks in his unblock attempt. Can you revoke his talk page access? --Tarage (talk) 19:50, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

GoldenRing beat me to the punch with the request and revocation. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:52, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Without prejudice to the block being extended if anyone thinks it necessary. GoldenRing (talk) 19:55, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I also won't have any problem with any changes to his block. However, I'll be offline, so hopefully there won't be any further need for me to participate in this discussion. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 20:04, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Side note: Floquenbeam wasn't enabling anything. They saw the report, figured it was a mistake, saw Joseph2302 was serious, and backed out immediately as they didn't want to be part of this. 129.9.75.194 (talk) 20:38, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• No, Floq didn't figure it was a mistake: they said it was wrong and disruptive. Don't quite see how one gets "enabling a personal attack" from "Please try harder not to be silly and disruptive. TRM is not a vandalism-only account, and reporting him at AIV is 100% guaranteed to be a minor waste of time", esp. not after this, "oh for crying out loud". Was Floquenbeam supposed to have let the AIV report stand? Drmies (talk) 01:49, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I think what the The Rambling Man is getting at- perhaps, not tryng to mind read- is that if an admin (any admin, impersonally) sees an egregious personal attack take pace (to the extent that they acknowledge it as being so), it would be logical to expect the admin to respond with administrative action, that's all. — fortunavelut luna 12:07, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Side note: no, this is an admin sidestepping duty because of the target of the personal attacks. It's pretty obvious, if they didn't want to get involved they should have stayed out of it from the start. The edit summary at AIV demonstrated it wasn't a "mistake". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:55, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

This is also you continuing to harbor a grudge against Floq. We don't need you to keep reminding us that he called you a name and swore at you once. That's not relevant to Joseph2302's foolish behavior. TRM, you seem to be perpetually complaining that the admins don't respond fast or forcefully enough to attacks on you, but have you considered that you are probably contributing to this problem by holding grudges and being quick to criticize and complain? It doesn't make sense to antagonize people and then complain when they don't rush to your defense. Lepricavark (talk) 04:14, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

You again? You should offer Floq the same advice, there was no need for him to get involved, AIV gets plenty of admin traffic, and would have soon been serviced adequately by an admin who wouldn't have side-stepped the issue, creating this drama board post for you hawks to come circling. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:18, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Floq warns someone for attacking you and you try to turn him into one of the villains. Oh, by the way, you created this drama board post for us evil hawks to come circling. Not everything is Floq's fault. Lepricavark (talk) 21:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Convenient that you missed the point. The long term involved admin could and should have left it to an admin with the balls to do a proper job. "Evil hawks"? You said it. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:10, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

IMO, the admin you describe would indef you because the constant drama that surrounds you, to which you contribute far more than you would admit, is too much of a drain on the community. Which, given your tendency to play the victim, might be exactly what you want. Lepricavark (talk) 01:03, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Your opinion doesn't seem to match any sense of logic, but thanks for it anyway. I'd spend more time improving articles and less time lurking around the drama boards if I were you. To avoid drama, Floq should have stayed away from making a half-arsed job which he himself admitted was just left unfinished, creating this time sink. Any other admin would have been more able to do the job here.!The Rambling Man (talk) 06:17, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd spend more time improving articles and less time lurking around the drama boards if I were you. I could say the same thing to you. You complain about drama board time sinks, yet you constantly create them. You say you this isn't a grudge against Floq, yet you keep bringing up an old slight at every chance you get. You regularly rail against the admins in general, yet you sound so confident that any admin besides Floq could have handled this case. And now you want to evaluate my logic. Lepricavark (talk) 15:25, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Wrong, while this errant user claimed I had a vandalism-only account, and while the attending admin (who has been involved with me in the past and really should have known better) did half-a-job, I've improved many articles, actually performed a number of GA reviews and promotions.... you on the other hand? Don't come telling me to do something else when this could all have been sorted if an admin had done the job properly. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:43, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Your interpretation of events ("half-arsed job") is totally incorrect. The only reason there is a problem is that you also completely misinterpreted Floq's comments at User talk:Joseph2302. Carrying a grudge for this long is not good for you or the community. Your current path leads to Kumioko's destination. No one at Wikipedia cares who was first to spit in the other person's porridge. Just stop. Johnuniq (talk) 08:15, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Not at all. You should stop. Floq did not need to get involved, only to walk away. Plenty of other admins service AIV and do it properly, Floq's partial actions just antagonises the problem. This is not a grudge, it's just a fact, so don't get confused. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:54, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

No admin should feel obliged to involve themselves in this type of drama, especially when an ANI case can easily resolve the issue. I support any consensus action against User:Joseph2302, but feel it's ridiculous to suggest that Floquenbeam is in any way at fault here. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:18, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

So let me get this straight, TRM reports a personal attack, and rather than a quick close, he gets asked why he can't just ignore them? That's not how personal attacks go. This is what contributes to the toxic atmosphere at Wiki and especially at ANI. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 21:10, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Just ignoring is, I've now realized and discovered, the best tactic when dealing with someone who is trolling. What contributes to the toxic atmosphere in Wikipedia is contributing to things escalating. It's the same as on the playground when you were a kid: ignore the bullies and eventually they will go away because the fun for them is in the chase and the responses they get. No response = no fun. -- ψλ ● ✉ 21:26, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

So an established editor breaks policies continuously and you just recommend that people ignore them? Why would we need policies then? nihlus kryik (talk) 21:58, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I recommend that the editor who feels they are being attacked ignore them, yes. Personal attacks are immature behavior. Immature behavior doesn't need immature behavior in response. Such a response will only escalate and increase incidents of the immature behavior. If it administrators notice it and do something about it, fine. But to make a huge issue of it and go on and on at talk pages and noticeboards...it only gives the attacker more reason to continue either now or later on. It also gives other editor trolls more ammunition to use at a later time, possibly at a noticeboard discussion started as a complaint about the attacker. There are a lot of immature people in Wikipedia who like the anonymity it provides so they can take out their aggressions or sadistic impulses on others. I've learned this the hard way. From something I borrowed from another Wikipedia and put on my user page a couple of years ago: "...be mindful of...how the opposition will stalk and target your articles, try to get you involved in an edit war, and make up a rationale for blocking you. Don't be fooled by this game. To avoid falling for this trap...Understand that some editors have antisocial attitudes, others are drunk or on drugs, and still others have psychological problems that we can't address. Above all, remain true to yourself and stay above the fray...". Running to an admin board for every infraction you (think you) see or perceive isn't the answer. And, admins don't really appreciate it, either. Wish I had realized this sooner, to be honest. -- ψλ ● ✉ 23:11, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Gee, if only there was some sort of official stance on civility. An... oblong shaped object. Maybe with some fancy carving on it. Used to support the whole of Wikipedia? We could probably use five of them. Not sure. Maybe that's something we should look into. --Tarage (talk) 00:18, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I propose derailing this thread by diverting the discussion to the question of whether a pillar is oblong or cylindrical. EEng 02:21, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Oppose. Seems to me that individual pillars deserve the right to their own geometries, and we should not bully them by trying to determine/impose our opinions or stereotypes. -- Begoon 04:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Priceless. Enigma^msg 04:54, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Sad to see the history and culture of our great five pillars being turned into oblongs. You can't change pillars, but you can learn from them! Pillars, Talk pages – what's next, Visual Editor? Flow? So foolish! EEng 05:00, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

It can't be oblong as that is a 2 dimensional shape, now if you were to say a rectangular prism.... Also, what if the pillar had a polygonal cross section? Are we discriminating against pillars with hexagonal, heptagonal or even octagonal cross sections?? -Blackmane (talk) 06:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I knew all that stuff but humor comes first. EEng 06:49, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Joseph2302 should be indeffed per the absurd report linked in the OP, and the "bizarre ANI thread" linked above by Pawnkingthree. Those links, plus their reaction which required revocation of talk page access, show that Joseph2302 is unable to contribute in a non-disruptive fashion. TRM should receive a massive trout for misinterpreting Floquenbeam's action to revert the absurd report and the subsequent discussion at Joseph2302's talk. @TRM: Not everyone is on the lookout for an opportunity to poke their opponent. Floq undoubtedly remembers the old discussions with TRM, but Floq does not keep pots boiling—Floq saw some nonsense, reverted it, and spoke gently with the user. TRM really had to work hard to assume bad faith in what Floq said, and bringing up the old fuck you is pathetic. For those familiar with TRM's history, the fact that someone told TRM "fuck you" merely indicates that TRM regularly gets under people's skin. TRM's ability to get under people's skin is what needs attention. Johnuniq (talk) 06:39, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I'll agree that this present episode is deeply unimpressive - and it was me who declined to unblock and disabled TP access. However, I'm not convinced that an editor with 40k edits and relatively little form (judging from his block log) is a net negative ripe for being indeffed. GoldenRing (talk) 09:38, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
    • GoldenRing, I want to be with you--but this is really deeply unimpressive to an extent that you wonder what the hell someone was thinking. They should have known this was going to be the result. Johnuniq, well said. Drmies (talk) 12:23, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
• TRM's talk page was edited by an IP today to insert a description of TRM as worse than Hitler. This ridiculous personal attack was reverted by admin Bencherlite but no warning was issued to the IP nor block imposed. No matter what TRM has done nor how many editors and admins he has annoyed, I believe that swift action is appropriate when any editor declares that another is worse than a man responsible for millions of death. EdChem (talk) 12:37, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• EdChem, yes it was ridiculous. I saw no need to feed the troll by leaving a warning, and no need to block a dynamic IP with no other edits of a similar nature. Bencherlite^Talk 16:39, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Bencherlite, you reverted the IP's PA three minutes after it was posted. How did you know that whoever made the edit wouldn't post more bile somewhere else a few minutes later, perhaps somewhere not on your watchlist? Did you consider that a block of the IP would demonstrate to other editors that such posts are not tolerated, no matter who they are made against? It may be unfair, but my first thought on seeing the reversion but no block was that a similar post to most other users would have been met with a block and to wonder whether the reason for no block was because the attack was made against TRM. I can well understand not posting a warning because of the troll-feeding, but not blocking can be taken as sending a message which I hope you did not intend. It's too late to block now, of course, and there have been no further edits from the IP, which I recognise does fit with your decision... and, of course, your reversion was absolutely the right thing to do and was appreciated. I do believe, however, that a block on the IP would have been desirable. EdChem (talk) 08:05, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• LOL, you think I'm on the side of people who attack TRM? That's an interesting take on things. Bencherlite^Talk 08:48, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Maybe the IP saw this? That aside, the original post at IAV is just plain odd. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 12:57, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@Lugnuts: Are you in... flavor country?! ;) — fortunavelut luna 13:06, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

It's a big country... Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:12, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I make that {{checkuser needed}}. GoldenRing (talk) 13:14, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: What are you needing checkuser for here? If you want me to publicly link an IP to an account, I can't do that.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 15:41, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

 Clerk note: Tag disabled as it has been addressed by a CU. --QEDK (愛 • 海) 17:46, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Just finished my block, and seen this thread. I 100% wasn't the person who posted that terrible post to The Rambling Man. There's a difference between the posts I made, which were wrong, and that post, which is horrifically grossly insulting. That IP should be given a long block IMO. Comparing a Wikipedian to one of the world's worst every human beings is wholly unacceptable. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:52, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

E.M.Gregory's behavior at AfDs

As you can infer, I am here to report E.M.Gregory's behavior at AfDs, particularly his WP:UNCIVIL edits and habit for WP:BLUDGEONing the process. The issue has a long history; here are a few instances of editors addressing his excessive comments: [82] [83] [84] [85] [86] [87] [88]. Even when he is not called out on it, Gregory can still be found blugeoning the process as far back as 2016, mainly in terror or political discussions (diffs can be provided if needed; a simple AfD stats check may suffice however). Here are also examples of Gregory's tendency to cast aspirations, make comments on editors, or be uncivil in order to taint the discussion: [89] [90] [91] [92]. He suffers from a bad case of WP:IDHT and always continues commenting at the same rate. When he is not doing this, however, Gregory can be highly productive content editor which is why I propose a three month tban from AfDs related to politics and crimes. He can appeal the ban in three months on the condition he is not bludgeoning other AfD discussions.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 04:28, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

EMG is a skillful editor and has a knack of expanding articles to meet AfD objections. TGS and I have been bested by EMG in many AfDs. But EMG has a habit of drowning AfDs in a flood of comments. See this AfD for instance, where they make an astounding 34(!) comments. No one else is even close. I even told them to give a rest when they were half-way through (at 18 comments), but they don't listen.

Examples can be multiplied easily. Just look at any AfD which they participate in.

I suggest the following solution: let EMG make !votes on AfDs, but forbid any follow-ups. In other words, the are allowed exactly one comment on any AfD. I recall that this solution was used for behaviour at RfA by a certain editor who I am not naming here. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 05:53, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

If this is implemented, in my opinion, two or three would be a more reasonable limit than one. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:46, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

How would this even be enforced though? I agree that Greg has made some very good points in AfDs, but at the same time he heavily overdoes it by commenting on everything and anything. In the end and what should be very clear is that he is ticking editors off and so the only thing I can think of being punitive would be at least a one month topic ban. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 11:56, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Not merely in the spirit of compromise between you- but could I suggest two? That would give him a 'right of reply' yet would (hopefully) decrease the temptation to always have the last word. And don't we consider, on principle, the third edit to be the wheeling one? — fortunavelut luna 11:59, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I fully agree with up to 3 edits per AfD but as I said I don't know how that would be enforced? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:31, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Assuming for the moment that sanctions are necessary: "zero" or "one" are clean and easily enforced. "Zero" corresponds to a topic ban, "one" corresponds to a !vote explaining their reasons. Since EMG often makes persuasive points at AfDs (though I mostly don't agree with them), I think "one" is better. In my view, nobody needs a right of reply at an AfD: the discussion is about the article, not the editor. So I don't see any real reason for increasing the "one" to "two" or "three" or whatever. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:36, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The RoR might be explanatory, perhaps, of the previous point. — fortunavelut luna 13:38, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I think two is a good agreement then here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:43, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I will support a two-comment limit. His initial input is not disruptive, just the continuation of it. There is no reason half an AfD page or more should be devoted to Gregory's comments. Other editors have a right to weigh-in without a response from Gregory reasserting what he already said or "updating" his current state of mind on the discussion on a daily basis.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 05:18, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Having closed a few AfDs where E.M.Gregory has participated, I can vouch for the fact that his style of participation makes it harder to adjudge consensus. I think that Kingsindian's proposal (with Guy Macon's amendment) would be reasonable. A Train^talk 14:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Your comment made me curious since I can't remember interacting with you, probably for the simple reason that you close discussions long after I have left. I ran an interaction search and The AfDs that you closed: were Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Beheading of Bhausaheb Maruti Talekar (where I made 1 comment,) Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Monica Day (1 comment,) Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mustafa azad (1 comment); Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Somos Los Otros NY (1 comment); Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reem (singer) (1 comment); Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Indian Institute of Carpet Technology, Bhadohi (3 comments as I attempted to source an under-sourced Indian post-secondary technical college); Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Katharine Gorka (2 comments); Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Umbrella repair in Hong Kong (unsourced stub that is actually about Unbrella repair in Hong Kong, 1 comment, your rolled it over); and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oren Kessler (think tank foreign policy wonk) - here I did make multiple comments; you closed as "no consensus." Frankly I am puzzled as to understand in what way my comments on the pages you closed made it "harder to adjudge consensus."E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:09, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

What your survey is missing is discussions that I have relisted, such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tapuah Junction stabbing (2010), where you made 51 edits. Being able to make concise arguments is an important part of working collaboratively. A Train^talk 20:45, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

'So, yes, I have strong opinions on terrorism.' Actually, you have strong opinions on one type of terrorism. That is evident in your topic-focus.Nishidani (talk) 20:40, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Convenience break 1

• Responding

• In general, what I do at AfD is to search for sources on topics that appear plausible, routinely sourcing paltry article. Most of the hundreds of articles that I have found at AfD and sourced, are on fairly minor topics, uncontroversial, like last week's Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nancy Wood (journalist). But there attempts by fans of a subject to delete an article about a notable subject, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matthew C. Whitaker. Others are about people who are, for sundry reasons, hated by other people. Take, for example Dorothy King, a rich girl popularizer of archaeology and vocal opponent of the idea that the British Museum ought to send the Elgin Marbles to Athens. It takes time and an enormous amount of work to defend an individual or topic intensely hated by most editors who follow the field she writes about. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dorothy King (2nd nomination). It is, however, is very simple for an editor to delete such a page since most of us WP:AGF and take the Nom at his word. Fair enough, not only because most Noms at AfD are good editors playing straight, but because an enormous number of articles are stared every day on wannabe rock bands, minor athletes, non-notable films and the like. The editors who bring such articles to AfD deserve our admiration even though every once in a while even an extremely diligent editor like Bearcat - who monitors new article on wannabe politicians - will miss real notability in a minor politician. But the fact that most AfD nominationa are non-controversial discoveries by good editors weeding out the PROMO means that an editor with an animus can slip in areicles on topics that dislike. And, of course, we all make mistakes. Here's one I caught, that might easily have been deleted merely for having been a thing a few years ago, although I'm sure Nom was acting in good faith Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Soccer War (book).

• I regard AfD as a sort of intellectual pastime, screening today's list of new AfDs or topical lists to spot notability editors missed as well as unpopular topics with real notability. I am blessed with access to powerful archive searches, and some experience scanning academic jargon, which enables me to regularly check topics in ancient history (like people who were notable in the 1990s) where ediors running good-faith google searches often miss notability.

• However, what has brought me to ANI is not the diligent, steady work I do sourcing, upgrading and arguing "keep" at literlly hundreds of pages like pages like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wayne Chaney Jr., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eamon Delaney, or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Bensoussan. What brings us here is the fact that I regularly edit terrorism related pages, and this makes me hated by TheGracefulSlick. I believe that terrorist attacks that generate national and international coverage pass WP:NCRIME. TheGracefulSlick argues strongly that many WP articles on terrorist attacks need to be deleted. I think that we first met at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2016 Minneapolis shooting. Certainly we have been clashing regularly all summer, but I think that most of the terrorism-related AfD articles where we have disagreed this summer have been kept.

• One of the articles where I argued this summer to keep and Slick argued to delete read, in part " this is an obvious WP:NOTNEWS event that is better explained in a list." (here: [93]) This is typical of his comments at terrorism-related AfD pages. Slick returned to the page to let off a little steam [94], then, as the discussion trended keep, accused us all of bad faith, took his marbles, and left in a huff [95]. Well, we all lose our tempers sometimes.

• What was truly troubling is that although that AfD was closed by Sandstein as keep ("The result was keep"), in June, this week slick returned to the scene to make the same argument she made at AfD, i.e., that the article should be merged to a list. Since, if he had brought it back to AfD, the discussion would probably have been closed as keep on procedural grounds, I viewed GracefulSlick's Merge proposal as a sort of AfD-by-stealth, and said so here: [96]. And so The Graceful Slick brought me here.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:05, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Actually, what brought you here was the constant WP:BLUDGEONing of AfD discussions. I certainly do not hate you. I hardly even know you. Did you not read my opening comment?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:13, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Another article that Slick rather aggressively brought back to AfD only a month after it closed a Keep was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2016 Malmö Muslim community centre arson. Article was created, by me, almost a year after the attack because an important arrest of a ISIS operative in Germany threw a whole new light not on ISIS's work instigating attacks outside the Near East that had been presumed to be lone wolf. It shows the way in which GracefulSlick is so incensed by the existence of articles on terrorist attacks, that he sometimes seems to be unable to read and comprehend the actual information and sources in the article he is attempting to delete.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:24, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• I just notiiced on a 3rd example of GracefulSlick's highly problematic behavior with regard to recent terrorism-related notability discussions. Here Graceful Slick blanked a page: March 2017 Île-de-France attacks, (here: [97]). When her blanking was reverted by User:User2534, Slick suggested that the page be merged. Because this attack is one in a series of what are now 6 or 7 2017 terrorist attacks on police and soldiers now patrolling the streets of French cities under the State of Emergency, and because each of the other pages on these attacks had been kept after being brought to AfD, it appears to me that both the blanking of the page and the proposed merge are inappropriate for a page that was bound to be contested if taken to AfD. I do feel that this attempt to restrict my editing is an indirect way to "win" at terrorism-related AfD discussions by blocking an editor with whom Graceful Slick disagrees on the notability of terrorism-related articles.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:58, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• The flaw in Kingsindian's proposal is that there are many AfDs on somewhat arcane topics such as the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2016 Malmö Muslim community centre arson. If you look at the talk page for the article Talk:2016 Malmö Muslim community centre arson#ISIS involvement, you will see that my arguments were based on reading of entire sources, an amount of work that even very good editors weighing in at the AfD, like, Knowledgekid, were not able to spend the time to do. Editors working at AfD regularly and understandably do not always choose to read entire, lenghty articles.

When, as at the 2 AfD discussions (both closed as keep) this summer about the 1026Malmo ISIS-relate arson attack, I have read long, complex sources, I can often weigh in with information that other editors have not seen.

This was the case recently at alt-left, a topic that I spend several hours yesterday reading and managed to revise a terrible attack page into a pretty-solid, NPOV version - that was rapidly mucked up by a highly problematic editor. Nevertheless, I kept arguing because I had seen and read WPSIGCOV in the WaPo and by Peter Beinart in The Atlantic and a convoluted essay by intellectuals including Leon Wieselier-type cultural critic James Wolcott written months before Trump's appalling remarks, and other editors at the AfD seemed unarare that the term had ever had such coverage. Ultimately, the alt-left is a trivial insult, notable, but likely to soon be of interest only to intellectual historians.

Islamo-Leftism, on the other hand is a serious topic that editors attack for similar reasons of animus, outrage and ignorance. I do not regret the many times I weighed in at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Islamo-Leftism, or, frankly, the times I have returned over the course of 2 or 3 days or 2 or 3 weeks to weigh in, often on older topics that require sourcing to old books (I recall once requesting that an article related to a specific ships captain involved in piracy in the strait of Malacca at AfD be rolled over while I checked the sourcing in the article citing a book that had to be brought to the main library I use for offsite. Solid, turn of the century source even if I don't recall the pirate captain's name.

So, yes, I have strong opinions on terrorism. But I am also willing to do actual work validating and invalidating articles at AfD, and I regularly do this by commenting, then coming back in a day or so, searching, reading sources, often striking changing my iVote, making multiple comments and doing the kind of actual sourcing that few editors do at AfD.

This draws fire at terrorism-related pages. And from Kingsindian who has been gunning for me since we met at Susya when I was very green.

But this is how I work and I not only think that my edits at AfD have been valuable to the project, but that requiring that I make one or two comments and stop will prevent me from being able to follow the method that has made me useful: I scan for articles that may not have been properly gauged by Nom, run my own keyword searches, and make a comment. Then revisit in a day or two, and, if other editors disagree or no one else has done the work and the topic is one I think I can handle, I dive in and source it, often surprising myself enough to change my iVote. But regularly making multiple comments as I work - or when I want to sum up what i have found and return to my day job for a day or so. (other edits are due to poor keyboard skills, i.e. the sheer number of my edits on most pages deceives since about half are correcting my own typos or misspelled links). But, yes, if I am to be useful on complex and unusual topics at Afd, I do need the freedom to make multiple edits.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:31, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Please add some paragraph breaks so this can be more easily read. Huge blocks of text are quite difficult to read online. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk)

• done.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:01, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks, but it needed paragraph breaks and not indents. I've corected that, keeping your break points. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:48, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• E.M. Gregory deserves kudos and medals for their great work in all their AFDs I have seen. It is tremendously valuable to have someone actualy take the time and apply expertise to salvage articles. I don't follow terrorism topics, but from the above I gather that some with set views in that area are frustrated by the facts and sources that E.M.Gregory brought to bear. I tend to believe E.M.G. ws right and they were wrong in those AFDs then. Sure if you are bent on deleting a topic and EMG shows up then you have probably lost your quest. But EMG only shows up when they have the right info. --doncram 00:56, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Doncram: this isn't about being "right". Gregory's input is appreciated but no one needs to read the same thing dozens of times. He bludgeons anyone who dares to have a differing view which is not fair to editors who have legitimate opinions about the article(s) in question.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:34, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

E.M.Gregory does little but bludgeon the AfD process. Here are three recent AfDs in which we both participated:

• WP:Articles for deletion/Tapuah Junction stabbing (2010) Gregory made 41.3% of the edits to the page, adding 36% of the page's text.
• WP:Articles for deletion/Meir Ettinger Gregory made 12.8% of the edits to the page, adding 19% of the page's text.
• WP:Articles for deletion/2011 Gothenburg terrorism plot Gregory made 51.2% of the edits to the page, adding 40% of the page's text.

This ought not to be acceptable behavior, especially his obsessive need to (incorrectly) summarize the discussion every day. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:34, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Convenience break 2

• I Oppose any full-ban on AfD participation. I'm Neutral on a proposal to limit E.M.Gregory to one comment per AfD on political topics. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:13, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Power~enwiki: the proposal is leaning toward a two-comment limit. Also, this part of your edit summary, "If editors push this further, boomerang action may need to be considered", is uncalled for and unhelpful, especially since no one has aggressively advocated for banning Gregory from anything.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 05:23, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support two-comment limit on all further AFD related to politics and crimes for a period of three months - I agree with TheGracefulSlick who stated; "His initial input is not disruptive, just the continuation of it". Also of note is that the approach becomes adopted by others with less experience. It becomes off putting and I believe dissuades others from adding their !vote and opinion.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:34, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Nonsense. I have read through several of the complained-about AFDs and see nothing wrong. The "evidence" here starts with a diff to another editor's tendentious complaint within an AFD, within Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tapuah Junction stabbing (2010), in which EMG's participation is constructive and others' participation is perhaps dubious. For example the AFD nominator participated too much at the beginning, or at least more than I would have preferred. EMG offered housekeeping-type help, such as asking about previous AFD and then providing link to it. Over a long time there was eventually some bickering (in which EMG offered new info while others repeated themselves without new info IMHO) but it was fine overall. To censor one editor (the most constructive one IMHO) in the absence of general limits on AFD participation would be pretty awful. If we were to do that kind of thing, then that would be a great way for any one of us identify one or two editors who tend to disagree on inclusionism-exclusionism scale so that we would "win" more AFDs. --doncram 13:03, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support corrective feedback  I was a target of E.M.Gregory at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Teresa May (actress) when I was accused of WP:BLUDGEON when I pointed out that E.M.Gregory was using old research for his claims.  Since a lack of current research is not explained by another editor's participation in an AfD, he has been swept up in the heat of the moment and abandoned the force of reason. 

  The three-month proposal with any of these edit count restrictions is very practical and it should not imply that E.M.Gregory is required to prove that there is any behavior change by the end of that period of time.  The negative feedback is likely to be constructive for his career.  Unscintillating (talk) 15:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support - Having had the misfortune of being involved in an AfD's with E.M. Gregory, i found the comments devolved in to commenting on the contributor and not remaining focused on the content. Bludgeoning is a correct term to describe the actions of E.M Gregory. Sport and politics (talk) 16:21, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

here here are two more examples of recent E.M. Gregory behaviour at a recent AfD where a wall of text has appeared, and it is an example of how hard it can be to know establish a consensus on an AfD. Sport and politics (talk) 15:33, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support a different restriction. Someone above mentioned an example where EMG commented 34 times, but here is an AfD where the count seems to exceed 40. It is completely ridiculous that someone is allowed to dominate an AfD like that. However the really annoying thing is not the number of times he edits the AfD but his habit of responding in place to everyone whose opinion differs from his. Instead of limiting him to a maximum number of comments, he should be required to keep all his comments, no matter how many, to a single subsection. (Actually I wouldn't mind if everyone had some such restriction.) Zero^talk 19:46, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: I hope you realize that by not supporting the actual proposal under consideration, but instead proposing something completely different, which is unlikely to receive additional support from other editors, you are subverting the current proposal and making it less probable that the behavior of the editor in question will be controlled (which appears to be your bottom line), not more probable. Sometimes, just like in real life, you don't get to have your ideal solution, you get to choose between what are (in your opinion) less than ideal fixes, and you back the one that seems best to you. Not doing so runs the risk of getting no solution at all. I do wish people would think these things through instead of just throwing stuff out there. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:07, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Zero0000: can you consider supporting the restriction more editors are agreeing with instead of your seperate proposal?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I support any restriction that prevents EMG's current mode of behavior. So please count me in favor of the majority opinion in favor of restriction. Zero^talk 08:52, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support some sort of restriction on EMG's comments on AfDs, preferably limiting EMG to one comment. I would also support a TB on AfDs if there is enough support for that option. This problem behavior has been going on a while. My first encounter with EMG was at WP:Articles for deletion/Barron Trump (2nd nomination), where EMG pummeled everyone who disagreed with comment after comment, often repeating the same point again and again. Then EMG had the audacity to accuse others of WP:IDHT. I really don't know the quality of EMG's edits apart from AfDs, but this obsession with endlessly countering every comment of disagreement is very destructive to the consensus process. Sundayclose (talk) 20:34, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support a two- or three- comment per AfD restriction. E.M.Gregory's manner at AfD makes collaboration more difficult, which is behaviour that a collaborative project should discourage. A Train^talk 20:47, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support a two comment (or similar) restriction per AfD, to stop the WP:BLUDGEONING. I almost started a discussion like this myself, but I had hoped E.M.Gregory would take the hint when other editors, including myself, suggested that refrain from making so many comments. Examples of excessive comments: 42 comments, 31comments, 42 comments, 48 comments. - MrX 22:23, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support, given the evidence that the editor can't seem to control their behavior. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:52, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support per BMK directly above. Softlavender (talk) 00:20, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose There is no reason to argue with him. If he i addressing issues with articles, that's a good thing. I haven't seen arguments that his content creation is bad and other editors appreciate his comments so they can see how an article has changed from its listing. It's only annoying to those that disagree with him. That's not disruption and it's not a reason for a sanction. --DHeyward (talk) 01:24, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• You seem to be rather missing the point. It's not EMG's content creation which is the locus of the problem here, it's his bludgeoning of people who disagree with him on AfDs. I can see how that would be annoying to those who differ with his viewpoint, can't you? After all, we're all Wikipedians, whether we agree with EMG or not, and simply taking an opposing position from EMG does not mean that the editor is fair game to be bludgeoned.
  And however do you come to the conclusion that "There is no reason to argue with him"? Are you saying that he is invariably correct at AfD, and that once he speaks there is no point in any other Wikipedian commenting to disagree, since there is (you say) no reason to argue with him? How, I wonder, did he come by this fantastic ability to be constantly correct? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:22, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I am not missing the point and quite aware of the underlying reason for this complaint. It's not just comments at AfD as those that are frustrated also seem to have disputes regarding content and focus. Otherwise the content area regarding terrorism would not have been mentioned. Secondly, no I am not saying he is right and therefore needs no reply. I am saying there is no reason to respond or argue with statements in an AfD. To use your reply as an example, the first part of your reply was a patronizing statement questioning my understanding. It was needless but a curt reply asserting you are incorrect is sufficient. There is no need to further discuss how incorrect you are even if you reply again. We could go 'round and 'round generating lots of comment but simply not replying is sufficient. The last comment in a thread isn't the "correct" comment, it's merely the last one. Your comments don't invalidate my view. Irritating commenters are stopped by simply not replying after positions are made clear. As a rhetorical question, if this ANI entry were a complaint about "BMK's follow-up comments at ANI being disruptive," how supportive of sanctions would you be especially if it was filed by those that you have been in dispute with? Your need to comment on my oppose is exactly the behavior this sanction is trying to thwart but whether it's disruption or participation is in the eye of the beholder. Your passion is participation at ANI and that is fine. EMG ha a passion for retaining articles on terrorism. I am reluctant to restrain participation especially if the result is better articles. No one has put forward any evidence that he is tilting against windmills and arguing against consensus. A I recall, one of the metrics put forward for admin 'good judgement' is how often their !vote matched the AfD outcome. If EMG's !votes are matching the outcome, he is not being disruptive, he's building the encyclopedia using good judgement. --DHeyward (talk) 06:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but your analysis is weak. For one things, considering the personal matter you brought up, participating at AN/I is not my "passion". Of my edits, 73.16% are to articles, and less than 4% are to AN/I. My "passion", as you put it, is to improve the encyclopedia in any way that I can, always primarily at the article level. AN/I is simply a sideline.
  But more specifically to this issue, your statement that "No one has put forward any evidence that he is tilting against windmills and arguing against consensus" is, once again, completely missing the point. Bludgeoning can occur whether or not the bludgeoning editor's opinion is upheld by consensus or not: it's not the result which determines whether bludgeoning has occurred, it's the actual ongoing act of responding to a large number of comments, thus creating a negative atmosphere in the AfD which inhibits participation by other editors. In other words, at least in this instance, the ends do not justify the means. Bludgeoning is never justifiable. If an AfD is being trolled or overwhelmed by canvassed participants, EMG should seek out an admin to deal with the problem, or post about it on one of the noticeboards, they should not attempt to shout down the opposition by personally controlling the discussion. "If EMG's !votes are matching the outcome, he is not being disruptive" is simply totally and completely incorrect. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:18, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

File:Night of the Living Dead (1968) theatrical poster.jpg

In exceptional circumstances bludgeoning is indeed justifiable. –EEng

• If you believe Bludgeoning is never justifiable (emphasis on never), why are you bludgeoning me over my oppose opinion? I already said you need not reply and my point was obviously clear. Please stop making my case lest you find yourself at ANI by someone that opposes your bludgeoning. --DHeyward (talk) 19:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• This is not bludgeoning, this is what is called "a discussion". Wikipedia works by WP:CONSENSUS, and it's virtually impossible to reach a consensus without having at least some discussion. If you're intersted in rolling the dice to find out what happens if you file an AN/I complaint about me for having a discussion with you, please be my guest.
  As opposed to a valid discussion, WP:BLUDGEONing, especially as described here, is something else entirely. If I replied to each and every "oppose" !vote, or almost every one, repeating much the same argument each time, and then replied again to the responses I got, that would be bludgeoning.
  In any case, since we're unlikely to agree, I think you are right and we should leave it that we disagree. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support per A Train. Seeing a stack of EMG comments on an AfD makes it so much harder to judge actual consensus and close properly. If he could express himself more concisely I think more people would actually read and listen to him. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:40, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Firstly, there is certainly no case for any kind of topic ban preventing EMG from AfD participation entirely. Most seem to agree on that. Secondly, if the "problem" is as stated, and EMG makes useful and insightful comments, but then makes too many follow-ups, then this is not a good solution. By restricting him to one or two comments the incentive will be for him to wait until late in the AfD, so that he can address all other comments "in one go", thus removing the advantage of having his useful input available early on, and possibly resulting in a large, wide-ranging comment, itself requiring a number of responses. That's far from ideal. In any case, having looked at the examples given, I don't find the behaviour at all as disruptive as portrayed. On the occasions where he makes many comments the debates are long, and his comments seem well explained, relevant and not combative. Additionally, I share doncram's concerns that this type of approach could become a dangerous precedent for those wishing to "hobble" an "opponent" -- Begoon 06:12, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose having read through all of this, a restriction is too harsh. The OP is trying to throw them out of AfD which is telling. Agree with User:Begoon we should not be letting people hobble an opponent like this. The editor is a smart editor and I'm sure he will be more careful in the future to avoid behavior that can be fairly seen as repeating objectionable behavior. Legacypac (talk) 09:29, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

  @Legacypac: a brief read through this thread will show I am not trying to throw Gregory out of AfD. I actually supported the two-comment restriction awhile ago and haven't advocated my original proposal. And Gregory has been repeating this behavior since 2016. I am pretty sure that is enough time to be more careful after all the warnings he received. TheGracefulSlick (talk) 09:36, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose any restriction lasting more than 3 months Too valuable an editor for us to risk de-motivating with unnecessary sanctions. Oppose even a time limited restriction as too harsh if they’ll concede it would be good to cut back a bit on the badgering. EMG makes a good case about why his freedom to post multiple times helps us reach a good evidence based consensus. I echo Doncram about him deserving medals, and find Begoon's argument persuasive. Except to say he can be combative on occasion. In the Teresa May AfD he had the gall to accuse the phenomenal Unscintillating of bludgeoning! He also claimed my keep vote was arguing from false premises. When I posted a link to prove conclusively that was not the case, he didn't retract his claim. Insults from deletionists are water of a ducks back, but having an almost ARS quality scholar question my veracity was somewhat hurtful. No matter how outstanding a scholar you are, you can still make mistakes. Wikipedia helps protect against individual mistakes by collective decision making. While limited badgering can be helpful, taken to an excess it's disruptive, as Grace & the supporters explain. Have faith that good AfD closers can recognise innacrate assertions in the delete votes; they don't have to pointed out explicitly every time. All that said, EMG is a very appreciated editor overall, and I really hope feedback on this page is not dis-heartening. FeydHuxtable (talk) 09:40, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - I struck out my original proposal since a few editors are confusing my support for the comment restriction with it.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 09:47, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
• Here [98] is a link to the strange series of AfDs on Teresa May, non-notable porn model/actress, a page repeatedly re-created, and defended by people at least some of whom enjoyed or were politically motivated to want to have a hatnote atop the Prime Minister's page redirecting to a porn actress. It was a strange discussion.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:09, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I see you are still working from old research.  At the 2016 AfD you successfully created a twodabs solution to avoid a hatnote on the prime minister's article.  I proposed your exact solution at Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_March_9#Teresa_May, but in that discussion you turned your back on your own solution.  And it is a 100% red herring to characterize an association between Theresa May and Teresa May as Wikipedian POV attempts (and which is another example of you disparaging Wikipedia contributors when there are better ways to express your viewpoint).  As per the book by Theresa June Rosa Prince quoted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Teresa May (actress), it is more accurate to say that Theresa May saved her political career and became prime minister by associating herself with Teresa May.  Unscintillating (talk) 15:50, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I had forgotten entirely that the porn actress somehow figured in a real political campaign. What I clearly do remember is that even extensive archive searches could not turn up notability for the porn actress/model as an actress or model, but tabloids ran photos of nude Teresa May" when Theresa May became a major political figure, that the former porn model was able to make money selling nudie photos taken when she was young, and that part of the discussion or point of those AfDs was to address the perceived unfairness of repeated attempts to drape a nude model across the top of the Prime Minister's Wikipedia page. I fear we're drifting off topic here.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:06, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I do acknowledge that I can get carried away in the heat of debate, although not as often as some editors seem to think, and despite the factthat I have been the target of trolls, of a series of sockpuppets created to HOUNDDOG and provoke me into losing my cool, of regular visits to my talk page by odd IPs attempting trip me up with invitations to make strange edits. dislike my position on terrorism, and by editors who disagree with my position on the notability of terrorist attacks (which, by the by, are only one of the topics where I edit regularly by adding content and sources) and who often seem to be trying to provoke me into saying something that will get me bumped. I deeply appreciate the willingness of editors whom I have not met at AfD to come to this page and expend valuable time looking at the arguments and evidence. And I will try in future to keep my commenting at AfD strictly on point.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:09, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Then why not impose a voluntary restriction on yourself? Is there really anything you can say in 34 or 40 comments that you can't say in 2 or 3 or 5? Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:55, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Weak support for a 3 or more comment limitation. About the 34 comment example, while it may be true that no one was close, the situation seems a little more complex than the pure number would suggest. There are longish back and forths between EMG and multiple other editors in that discussion. Under the "two to tango" concept, I'm generally reluctant to criticise only one party for long back and forths since ultimately if the other editor wasn't responding, then the first editor would just be talking to themselves which would be obvious (and also is very rare). The fact it's multiple isn't the best of signs. Still I don't consider that a great example of the problem. More concerning to me is the sheer number of !vote EMG responded to which is rarely a good sign. As for the possibility EMG will just wait and post lots of followups in one go, well all the comments here suggest to me we should be able to think better of EMG than that. Nil Einne (talk) 14:05, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I actually think an omnibus response would be quite acceptable. One of the primary problems with WP:BLUDGEONing, in my view, is that the ongoing commentary from the bludgeoning editor could have the tendency to inhibit comments from editors who have yet to participate. They look at the fact that practically every post is getting a bludgeoning response, and they decide to just avoid the hassle and pass the whole thing by. I don't think you get that effect if the editor who would have bludgeoned had instead posted a single comment dealing with multiple comments. They might even be able to fashion it into a single coherent argument rather than individual hammer strikes, which I think is a definite improvement. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:02, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support to address repeated and disruptive WP:BLUDGEONING. Had I joined this conversation earlier I would have recommended the restriction be limited to "terrorism, mass casualty, and political AFDs" as this seems to be where the disruption occurs and a wider than necessary restriction is undesirable. EvergreenFir (talk) 16:13, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• As I explain above many,many of my edits are the result of my notoriously poor keyboard skills: I often return, sometimes more than once to fix a link or a word that is misstyyyped or or repeaeated. More to the point, however, is that free confess to occasional BLUDGEONONG, what I am doing at these pages is not repeating myself, but bringing new sources, carefully reading policies and citing them, improving the article then making a WP:HEY comment, sometimes making a second HEY comment, revisiting and reversing an iVote, and, more lately, I have taken adding "fact checking" comments when an editor in a discussion makes a clear assertion in a discussion that is verifiably inaccurate. Moreover, many of the complaints here are by editors with whom I disagree on one of the many topics that I edit on: terrorism. I edit in this area more than I might choose if it were not such a hotly contested area. For those who don't know, an article will be brought to deletion on the grounds that it is insufficiently sourced, then I or someone goes in and sources it, at which point it is tagged as oversourced and the AfD discussion turns to some new topic. Take a look, for example, at Murder of Georgios Tsibouktzakis and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Murder of Georgios Tsibouktzakis, two pages the editing of which would have tried the patience of a saint. I am no saint, but had I been restricted to 1 or 3 or 4 edits Father Georgios woulls have no page, despite due to the fact that politician Marwan Barghouti was convicted of ordering his murder, and there are editors who JUSTDONTLIKEIT.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:23, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

E.M.Gregory, you can cherry-pick pages where you comment all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the overall and overwhelming pattern in your comments on AfDs is to bludgeon by repeating the same points over and over, not "bring new sources" or fix your typing errors. Trying to pretend that your behavior is "occasional BLUDGEONING" so that it can be excused doesn't help your case here. You bludgeon more than any editor I have ever seen on AfDs. That being said, I hope you can continue to make constructive edits and, regardless of any administrative outcome of this discussion, that you will restrict your comments on AfDs to one or two. It's time for you to err on the side of caution. Sundayclose (talk) 17:37, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I just revisited Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barron Trump (2nd nomination), the only AfD where you and I have ever interacted. Other editors are free to take a look at this and other AfDs I have edited, but Sundayclose's assertion: "the overall and overwhelming pattern in your comments on AfDs is to bludgeon by repeating the same points over and over, not "bring new sources" is flatly untrue.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:24, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I also encourage other editors to look at that AfD and reach their own conclusions. I also would like E.M.Gregory's response to a suggestion above to impose a voluntary self-restriction on commenting at AfDs, and if E.M.Gregory agrees with that suggestion, to state what kind of self restriction. Sundayclose (talk) 19:17, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Is there something analagous to the Editor interaction analyser that would list all of the AfD disccussions in which an editor participated?E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:24, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Try this. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:39, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - We need more participants at AfD, not less. I've always found his replies to be helpful and constructive and he often improves articles brought to AfD when no one else bothers to try and improve them. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:43, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose: this is complex and nuanced issue. Do not hit it with a large blunt instrument. E.M. Gregory is a productive content writer and diligent researcher whose contributions to AfD are, overall, a net positive. He has acknowledged, above, that he gets overinvested in some AfDs. Now give him time and space to change.—S Marshall T/C 17:52, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• @S Marshall: he has had since 2016 to change. Why does this require more time? We are not throwing him out of AfD. If anything this will make his arguments more concise so he doesn't feel the need to comment 30 to 40 times.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:39, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. I have seen this most recently at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alt-left. But the thing is, he convinced me of his position. (I dislike with his initial response in that discussion; but the subsequent responses are fine.) This is not bludgeoning; this is careful response to arguments. We should be having more of this - i.e. actual argumentation - at AfDs, not less. StAnselm (talk) 18:52, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. The comments are informative. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

@QuackGuru: read through WP:BLUDGEON. It does not matter if his comments are informative. He uses dozens of them to dominate an AfD and intimidate other editors with different opinions. How are you okay with that?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:06, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Many editors ignore comments made by others and ignore policy. QuackGuru (talk) 19:12, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

So you are saying in ever single example presented here it was just opposing arguments ignoring his comments and policies? Even though there are constructive responses and eventually pleas by editors for him to stop badgering the process.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:18, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Did other editors focus on content or did they also focus on the editor? QuackGuru (talk) 19:22, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Why don't you read the diffs and find out? I know Gregory has directed many comments toward me to taint the discussion. I apparently have a bias toward Israeli victims because I nominated an article about an attack in Israel for deletion. I have been called an aggressive advocate for deletion of said articles and my ability to understand reason has been questioned. So, to answer your question, yes other editors, being Gregory, did focus on the editor, instead of content.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - Punitive punishment or not I really hope that Greg realizes that he is ticking other editors off. We get your point, you don't have to repeat the same arguments over aND over and over again ad nauseum... - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:35, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Personal attack and character assassination

Dear administrators, I would like you to block Volunteer Marek for character assassination and personal attack. As you can see here, he is using a personal attack to argue against one of my suggestions (I started a poll and discussion on including a list of the sources used in the memo). It was a suggestion, nothing more. Of course you can have a different opinion, but you should state it with arguments and not with cyber bullying. He indicates I am a "they" and that I am part of the alt-right movement - so basically claiming my suggestion shouldn't be considered because I have the wrong ideology. Furthermore I must say that I do NOT identify with the alt-right movement, I see myself as a left-wing with special interest in equal rights for both genders (feminist and masculinist). And you can clearly see that I am NOT part of the alt-right movement: I have created the article called Gay concentration camps in Chechnya and write about feminist, LGBT and masculinist issues. Please block him for this inappropriate attack on my person (temporarily) and please delete the character assassination permanently. I am not the first he did this to, as you can see here: "Please abstain from using terms as "sketchy-ass accounts", "starting up shit", "garbage" anywhere in WP. It is against the Wiki spirit. (OTOH, granted, we are all sometimes guilty of similar transgressions, see e.g. my Block log.) [[User:Zezen|Zezen]] ([[User talk:Zezen|talk]]) 04:55, 17 August 2017 (UTC)". Here another user who claims to be attacked personally.

PA "Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream."--Rævhuld (talk) 12:07, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

If an accurate description of your editing practices comes across as character assassination, you have only yourself to blame. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 12:38, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@Hullaballoo Wolfowitz You are not even an administrator, so why are you writing here? Indicating that I am part of the alt-right movement is not really an accurate description. A proper description of what I am writing about is: gender issues, LGBT content and political incidents.--Rævhuld (talk) 13:05, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Because anyone is allowed to comment here, not just admins. And when placing a comment here, be advised that not only the person you are requesting to be looked at behavior is analyzed, but yours as well. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:13, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@Rævhuld: Second HW's comment. You should read WP:NPA is some detail, and I particularly draw your attention to 'Accusing someone of making personal attacks without providing a justification for your accusation is also considered a form of personal attack.' Whilst you may have provided a degree of justification, it is weak enough to suggest that little or no effort had been put into reading the actual policy and seeing if VM's remarks correlated. There will be no blocks (well, not of VM, anyway), and no deletions. Further investigation reminds me why your username is familiar. Raevhuld, your userpage is chock-full of complaints, criticisms and pieces of worthy advice, although of course they are not there now due to your fondness of the {{archive now}} template. — fortunavelut luna 12:49, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: You should read WP:NPA is some detail, and I particularly draw your attention to 'Accusing someone of making personal attacks without providing a justification for your accusation is also considered a form of personal attack.' Whilst you may have provided a degree of justification, it is weak enough to suggest that little or no effort had been put into reading the actual policy. My userpage is not chock-full of complaints and I have never been blocked.--Rævhuld (talk) 13:06, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Precisely. The reason your userpage is not chock-full now is because you immediately archive them. So, more accurately, "your 'Archive 1' is chock-full of complaints, criticisms and pieces of worthy advice" which you seem to have delighted in not taking. And, please, it is unnecessary to quote chunks of people's posts back like that, if all you mean to do is ping them. — fortunavelut luna 13:12, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

To be fair, the archive is more balanced. Even if you take out the automated notifications. His *recent* contributions are certainly more problematic, but given anything related to the alt-right at the moment is causing all sorts of tiresome arguments. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:15, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, but which recent edits are problematic? The most "problematic" edits I did was criticizing genital mutilation using peer-reviewed articles and trying to change the article homophobia into gaycism. Both are very left-wing posts.--Rævhuld (talk) 13:26, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I am archiving everything that is older than a week. I like to have a clean talk page with only the recent talk page discussions. And I have linked to the archive page at the very top very clearly with a huge symbol. So what is the problem? You make it sound like I am hiding something. If I would hide something, why not just delete all comments I dislike, just as other users do? I mean, Volunteer Marek's talk page is totally clean, and if you read his log, you can see, he has been deleting a lot of things he disliked. Not to mention that he hasn't linked to an archive (does he have any?)--Rævhuld (talk) 13:21, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

No one is required to keep archives of their talk pages (it helps), and implicitly, their talk page history serves as an article; removing talk page messages is completely fine with the understanding that the editor thus has acknowledged the talk page message was given to them (eg [99] this means that we will assume VM is aware of this discussion because VM wiped your courtesy message). --MASEM (t) 13:26, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

But it is totally ok to criticize me for archiving my page?--Rævhuld (talk) 13:28, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

No, and no-one did :) I did, however, comment upon the large quantity of negative feedback, and was forced to reiterate the archiving purely because you (somewhat disingenuously!) claimed to have a clean talk page. The only point I was making was, of course you have- because the contents is not there anymore. Just FYI. — fortunavelut luna 13:31, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

First, you need to provide diffs, not just a link. I looked at that section and can't see anything like you suggest. As others have said, without clear diffs, it's impossible to tell and could be treated as a personal attack against VM.

However, in the broader sense, calling out a specific editor as alt-right or any other type of ideological position left or right (when said editor hasn't clearly stated that) as a means to dismiss their contributions or suggestions is a PA "Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream.". I'd also consider in the current climate that specifically calling out someone alt-right falls under "Comparing editors to Nazis, dictators, or other infamous persons. (See also Godwin's law.)"). If these are the case, that's commenting on the contributor, not the contributions, and that's not appropriate at all. --MASEM (t) 13:20, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

You can see a diff here. Kind regards.--Rævhuld (talk) 13:27, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Masem: It was this post, which Raevhuld now keeps removing from the talk page. as you can see, it never accuses them of having any political preferences, merely that their editing suggests a particular interest in some subjects over and above others. Playing tha ball rather than the man, as it were. — fortunavelut luna 13:28, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Because indicating that I am part of the alt-right movement isn't attacking the man, but playing the ball. For sure. Why couldn't he just argue against my suggestion without attacking me personal? And how are my edits alt-right? I am writing about gender equality and LGBT and terrorist attacks. How is that alt-right!? And why do you need to interpret my edits ideological, instead of just criticizing my edits? You are just trying to attack me very broadly and vage instead of actual criticizing my suggestion.--Rævhuld (talk) 13:31, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Saying you "immediately started editing articles related to alt-right, "man's rights" (sic) and terrorist attacks" is saying nothing more than- that you immediately started editing XYZ, etc. No personal attack, and saying so does not make it so. Why don't you close this thread now? I think we've talked it through enough, haven't we? — fortunavelut luna 13:34, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

But it isn't true. The only articles related to alt-right was those about terrorism - which I actually took a very protective status towards Muslims on. What about the many other articles I wrote about women's, men's and LGBT issues? And how is indicating that I am part of the alt-right movement actually an argument against my suggestion? I am NOT part of the alt-right movement, but your way to argue sounds very alt-right to me.--Rævhuld (talk) 13:40, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Please do not attempt to WP:GAME WP:NPA, thank you. — fortunavelut luna 13:54, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I would agree it falls off the bright line of an NPA (and thus inactionable). I have some other concerns but don't immediatel have time to write out at the moment. --MASEM (t) 13:35, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Couple of the comments I wanted to make earlier :

• I would think this article could be considered under the GG 500/30 sanctions if an admin felt it that way. It's an intersection of tech and gender related issues, which I think could broadly fit under GG DS.
• I do think we need to balance the accusations of sock puppetry against legitimate new(ish) editors here. GG was one thing: it wasn't as mainstream, so the flood of new editors there pushing for the alternate views were likely from niche forums (4chan, reddit). The Google Memo, on the other hand, is clearly mainstream, and while I am sure that the same niche forums brigading here, from the broader public response to the Google Memo, there are definitely large numbers of people that agree/support its views, despite the slighter majority that have denounced it (eg the broader picture given in the RSes). To that end, as an open wiki, I can see a valid reason for people to come here and question about any POV issues they may see in the WP article on the topic, in contrast to the GG space. I think editors needs to be keeping a more open mind here and not presume every visitor to that page that is new and/or apparently a sleeper is trying to maliciously affect the article, and some of the behavior from VM and others presuming any editor asking about contrary views being an SPA or the like is not appropriate. Inactionable at this point but the start of the same trend that GG was on.

That said, some of the follow up comments here from Rævhuld are a bit concerning, and certainly some of VM's observations aren't out of line. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I've also been subject to Volunteer Marek personally attacking me.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Google%27s_Ideological_Echo_Chamber

And great! Another sketchy brand new account - just like A1Qicks, just like Raevehuld, just like Ari1891adler, just like several others. You guys are burning through your sleeper accounts.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:44, 16 August 2017 (UTC) 1

They're voting because they're confusing Wikipedia with whatever alt-right GamerGate subreddit they came from. The first two are newly created sketchy SPA accounts. The third one... I guess tha... never mind, just click "edit count" and then take a look at their contributions.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:08, 18 August 2017 (UTC) 2

Really? You sure it's not the sudden appearance of all these sketchy-ass accounts with less than 100 edits starting up shit on the article and brigading the talk page? Oh wait...! Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:40, 16 August 2017 (UTC) 3

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Samsara#Google_memo_article_protection

I wasn't talking to you brand-new-single-purpose-account-with-six-edits-created-just-to-push-POV-on-articles.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:45, 17 August 2017 (UTC) 4

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Keyakakushi46 (talk • contribs) 13:52, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek Continues:

*Comment Note that both User:A1Qicks and User:Keyakakushi46 are single purpose accounts with fewer than 50 edits. The latter appears to have been created solely to brigade this vote and talk page, the former looks like a straight up sleeper account.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:09, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

If participating in your first page is suddenly against the rules then how do you suppose you could ever get any new users? Of course it isn't but this rule seems to be specifically interpreted in such way just to discredit me. These comments Volunteer Marek makes do not further the discussion and are clear personal attacks.

More from Marek:

A brand new single purpose account knows how to throw WP:ASPERSIONS around. Right...... Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:10, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous. Could an admin tell him to cease this? It's is against WP:NPA and WP:CIV is borderline harassment at this point. I've asked him to stop everal times now. Keyakakushi46 (talk) 10:42, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• And so the pile-on begins... I took a look at the discussion the most recent VM detractor linked to, and while it's arguable that VM is a little too free with the accusations, what's not really arguable is that the accusations are spot-on; This is a highly suspicious account with a dubious ability to improve the project. There's also something to be said for giving a little leeway to an experienced editor who is responding to constant accusations of hypocrisy, POV pushing and lying by an account with fewer edits than I have pounds in my trousers (Relax: I'm taking about my hammer). ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:56, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@MPants at work: I think Rævhuld was confused about who you replied to since you didn't indent your comment at a ll so it looks like it is directed at him. Keyakakushi46 (talk) 10:42, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Spot on? So indicating that a person like me, who is a LGBT supporter and writing for women's, men's and homosexuals rights part is part ofthe alt-right is spot on? No, that is just bullshit. Especially if you take into account how many alt-right trolls I had to deal with here on Wikipedia. --Rævhuld (talk) 15:37, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Did you read my comments or just fly off the handle as soon as you realized I was defending VM? I was obviously responding to the comment above mine. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:07, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I also wonder if this is related to a now deleted SPI that was raised recently regarding VM. Wondering if we have a sock farm on our hands in a different way. RickinBaltimore (talk) 15:02, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

If you look at my account, you can see, that your fantasy is far away from reality.--Rævhuld (talk) 15:37, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• I have no dog in this fight, but this: [100] is not helping. Maineartists (talk) 15:47, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

That I suggested to add Hjernevask to "See also"? Or that I politely pointed out, that VM seems to have a vendetta against my person? He claimed that my suggestion was "disruptive"--Rævhuld (talk) 16:12, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Can someone please tell Raevhuld to stop messing around with my comments on the talk page? Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Can someone please tell Volunteer Marek that saying things like "don't be ridiculous" or using the term "stupid" all the time is offensive and users who are attacked have the right to remove it?--Rævhuld (talk) 16:05, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• There is clearly an issue with sleeper accounts, clearly SPA canvassed from off-site etc alt-right activists showing up at the moment. No comment if VM is justified in this particular case, but as a general theme its causing a number of issues across various articles. The POV push to remove describing Alt-right figures as 'alt-right' because they are only now realizing that to large portions of the public 'alt-right' means 'white nationalist/supremacist/racist/misogynist/homophobic' etc is hitting a lot of biographies. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:00, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

As the article founder of the Gay concentration camps in Chechnya article, I am clearly not alt-right. All my contributions have to all time been very left-wing - I stand up for LGBT and equal rights. And when I write about terrorism, I am actually not attacking Muslims, but rather the opposite:protecting them. Non the less, attacking me is neither all right nor an argument in this debate. If you think one of my contributions are wrong, you are welcome to debate it on my discussion page or pinging me on the discussion page of the article. As long as you don't call me names or claim that I would be part of the alt-right movement.--Rævhuld (talk) 16:08, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@Only in death: The concern with our usage of "alt-right" is that we use the most mild definitions (e.g. opposition to political correctness) when applying the label, but the most severe definition in the article ("reject mainstream conservatism in favor of white nationalism"). The majority of subjects we describe as alt-right are not described in RS as supporting white nationalism. This is a legitimate and serious BLP problem. James J. Lambden (talk) 17:16, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

That however is not an issue of our making. If reliable sources describe someone as alt-right, that is not a BLP violation to describe them as such (depending on circumstances either attributed or LABEL). That the alt-right do not want to be lumped in with white nationalists is a problem of their own making by embracing a political ideology that has a wide array of negative associations. There is a relevant discussion at Milo Yiannopoulos talkpage regarding 'Alt-lite'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:26, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The problem of internal inconsistency is entirely of our making. Policy allows discretion. When that discretion is pushed to one end in our description of the ideology and the other in our description of individuals, a solution within policy exists and it becomes our responsibility to solve it.

There is another relevant discussion at the NPOV noticeboard (link). James J. Lambden (talk) 17:36, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Raevhuld now appears to have resorted to trolling: Unnecessary templating ([101], [102]) and refactoring of comments ([103], [104], [105], [106]) such as this are little short of disruptive. — fortunavelut luna 16:12, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Trolling. Please read the article. I removed personal attacks, or do you really think it is all right to call people stupid or ridiculous?--Rævhuld (talk) 16:15, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

If you make a stupid argument, VM is under no requirement not to point this out. The fact that you insist upon reading "this is a stupid comment" as "you are stupid" does you no favors. It should be obvious to anyone that smart people can make stupid comments. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:21, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Calling people alt-right, even though they obviously are left-wing, and stating that an argument is "stupid" or "ridiculous" without trying to disprove it is clearly a personal attack and disruptive behaviour and against WP:TONE.--Rævhuld (talk) 16:35, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

They could have meant alt-left and got the terms confused in regards to someone who is left-wing. Calling an argument stupid or ridiculous without trying to disprove it is not a personal attack unless it is directed at someone, whether that be you or another edit. I agree that is however disruptive and not constructive. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:37, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Raevhuld is upset but should not be editing others' comments.

VM is disrupting the talk page with personal comments: (personal), (personal), (personal), (personal), (personal), (personal), (personal), (personal), (personal), (personal), (personal), (personal)

Raevhuld should be reminded not to edit others' comments.

VM should be reminded that article talk pages are only for discussing article improvement. James J. Lambden (talk) 16:55, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Raevhuld should also be reminded, in the bluntest clearest possible way, to desist from behaviour that could be easily perceived as trolling. GoldenRing pointed this out to them, but this has not seemed to deter them from continuing in exactly the same manner. — fortunavelut luna 17:10, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

He wrote his opinion and I asked him into it. How disruptive ... and yes, I wrote on your talk page, because you called me a "troll" with no actual evidence for it. I called you out on it, saying that you could just write on my talk page if you think I am doing something wrong. Oh no, how disruptive. It seems like you are very disruptive yourself.--Rævhuld (talk) 20:05, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree. But if we focus exclusively on the actions of upset editor and ignore the actions that cause them upset we pratically guarantee a continuous stream of upset editors. That is no way to minimize disruption. James J. Lambden (talk) 17:24, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Really, I do not think that being 'upset' is much of a justification, since the most disruptive behaviour they have demonstrated actuallyonly began after this ANI thread turned in way the OP did not want! — fortunavelut luna 17:36, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Could you get concrete on that? Which disruptive behaviour did I do? Calling out on bullies isn't disruptive. A guy bullying people for being new or just in general writing mean things to people instead of staying cool and focused, that is disruptive behaviour. Meanwhile you seem all too willing to ignore this particular user and all too willing to attack me.--Rævhuld (talk) 20:05, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I did not say it was justified. I said it was an all-too-common reaction. When the all-too-common reaction to a policy violation (WP:NPA) creates disruption, focusing exclusively on the consequences and ignoring the cause guarantees future problems. James J. Lambden (talk) 17:43, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

James, everyone here knows you hate VM. You're not going to get support for this. 74.70.146.1 (talk) 01:20, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me the dislike goes both ways. On my talk page at least, James J. Lambden appeared to be the milder mannered of the two. Samsara 12:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Raevhuld

I have blocked Raevhuld for 48 hours, essentially to stop the stream of time-wasting templates. User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, you were so very right about templates and I apologise for responding to your wisdom with low wit. I propose that this user be blocked indefinitely, with an unblock when they can convince myself or any other uninvolved admin that they can edit collaboratively. GoldenRing (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support - That editor has been nothing but trouble since the start, just as I said he would be, here on ANI, almost six months ago. Sometimes I wish people would listen... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 20:43, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

And here's another ANI-report about Rævhuld (not by me, though) that was never acted on. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 20:46, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support - I tuned off to this editor as soon as I read this comment awhile ago about Germans -- and we all know what this was referring to. He occasionally makes constructive edits but I do not believe they counteract such odd behavior.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:29, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - I was expecting this a little sooner, as I have been keeping an eye on him since long. Few diffs concerning the accused can be found on Mz7's talkpage, a link to the conversation with Mz7 can be found here: User talk:NeilN#My old discussion_with_Mz7. —usernamekiran(talk) 02:22, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - the comment editing is clearly disruptive in a bannable way. I would rather support a 2 week ban, but see no reason to believe the editor is willing to be cooperative. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support Per other editors. Stikkyy t/c 05:10, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support (somewhat obviously perhaps); but I'd like to emphasise that I actually think GoldenRing was restrained in their response, as, going by Raevhuld's response, they still don't understand the issues. — fortunavelut luna 06:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support the indefinite block proposed in this section. Thanks, GoldenRing, for the initial action and for bringing it back here for further consideration. I think your proposed action is necessary, given the history. -- Begoon 06:51, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment I have responded to his unblock request, declining it, and have extended the block to an indefinite one. Their edit history shows to me that there is a history of harassment with them, however it's coming FROM them, not towards them. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:26, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Uh, what did the editor do which was so egregious that it merited an indef block, especially with zero entries in their block log prior to this incident? If the editor has simply lost it in the reaction to this affair, perhaps one can keep the length to one week or something. But indef seems extremely harsh. Before implementing an indef block, other remedies like topic bans and IBANs ought to be considered. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:47, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support temporary block, strong oppose for indef block - Indef block at this stage is way too harsh in my opinion. If he simply lost his cool, give him a 3-4 week or so block and if he does this again, then indef him. Jdcomix (talk) 16:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Inappropriate changes to the list of catholic scientists

There are some articles in need of attention. E.g. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lay_Catholic_scientists. The modifications done by Akasseb do not paper neither required nor appropriate. I fear this is some kind of vandalism aimed to hit this particular religion. It would be helpful to go deep into it.--Pra1998 (talk) 19:57, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

WP:BRD? I see no attempt to truly discuss this with the editor besides your immediate call for administrators in reply to his reasoning on the talk page of the article. I see no need for an administrator to be involved. Also, when you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page, which I have done for you. nihlus kryik (talk) 20:03, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Here is my response to Pra1998, as found on the talk page of the List of Lay Catholic scientists: It escapes me why you have written this here. No scientists have been deleted in an absolute sense. Rather, all the of the churchmen-scientists were removed from the List of Lay Catholic scientists because of double counting (they are all on the List of Catholic churchmen-scientists). Also, I have a vested interest in making sure this is done right: all of those scientists were originally added by me (take a look at the edit history). I am also the main contributor to the List of Catholic churchmen-scientists. Furthermore, beyond my history with these articles, I have a deep knowledge about the historical relationship between the Church and science (I've been studying it for a decade) as well as a graduate degree in theology.Akasseb (talk) 21:04, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

It is all ok. Sorry for bothering.--Pra1998 (talk) 21:13, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Disruptive edits

This user (User:LuisSuazo300) has been constantly disrupting the pages Marcos Llorente, Borja Mayoral, Real Madrid Castilla, and 2017–18 Real Madrid C.F. season. For instance, please take a look at this. He then proceeded to justify the reasons for his edits on the talk page of User:Kante4 as: "Like I said, Marcos Llorente is not ready to be with the senior team do you understand, he needs to go back to Castilla and improve himself and this is why coach Zidane made a huge mistake for calling him to the senior team, he should of said "nope, in order for Marcos Llorente to be with the senior team, he needs to keep improving himself on Castilla." Warnings have been exhausted, and it seems like he's just doing it to enforce which players he thinks the squad should be composed of, not what the actual squad is. — Anakimi_lambaste   21:21, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

 Comment: Appears to be an editor with a history of similar conduct. I have blocked the editor in question for 2 weeks based on recent disruptive editing and the subsequent incivility ([107][108]) Alex Shih^Talk 02:06, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Removing ref improv templates & adding non-RS by User:WikiEditCrunch

WikiEditCrunch (talk · contribs) has been removing {{refimprove}} from articles without making any improvements or adequate explanation:

• The Doors: "Template removed:Plenty of sources;All check out;Outdated template"[109]
• Babelsberg Studio: "Outdated template:Enough references"[110]
• Meredith Corporation: "Page has enough references for verification"[111]
• Robby Krieger: "Enough verification refs"[112]
• Roll with It (Oasis song): "Enough sources" (actually dmy temp, refimprov was next)[113]

However, it is a series of removals, reverts, and addition of problematic (non-RS, not-in-source, etc.) references to The Ocean (Led Zeppelin song) that prompted this report. As commented on Talk:The Ocean (Led Zeppelin song)#2017 referencing problems & user:WikiEditCrunch:

"The article has sections of unreferenced text, including quotes. Some sentences read like commentary and appear to be WP:Original research. WikiEditCrunch has been removing {{refimprove}} without adding WP:Reliable sources that support the text and they have added some links to user-generated websites (all bare URLs). Specific edits include:

• 20 July 2017 – removed refimprove with no changes to article; edit summary: "Deleted unnecces template";[114] was reverted.
• 20 July 2017 – removed new refimprove & added two bare URL inline cites to "It was deleted from the set list thereafter" sentence (neither ref mentions this); edit summary: "Issue resolved:Added additional sources".[115]
• 16 August 2017 – added "Live performances" section without refs & improperly linked album.[116]
• 16 August 2017 – removed new refimprove & dmy templates; edit summary "Bot mistake";[117] was reverted.
• 17 August 2017 – removed new refimprove & added two bare URL inline cites to ""The Ocean" refers to the sea of fans seen from the stage at Led Zeppelin concerts, to whom this song was dedicated" (neither user-generated website ref mentions this is RS); added bare URL inline cite to "In concert, Plant always updated the lyric to reflect her current age, as captured on the Led Zeppelin DVD which features a performance of the song at Madison Square Garden in 1973" (apparently OK); added bare URL inline cite to "It is also part of the bands live concert soundtrack album The Song Remains the Same (album)" (duplicated a link to a video that was already in "External links"); edit summary: "Added more sources;Enough refs".[118]

The user has been warned twice on their talk page with {{uw-tdel2}} & {{uw-tdel3}} (see User talk:WikiEditCrunch#7/17). Refimprove templates will continue to be re-added and problematic sources removed as necessary.

— /s/ Ojorojo 17 August 2017"

Since then, we have been going back and forth.[119] I tried adding a RS referenced quote about "the sea of fans" (from the original source), but WikiEditCrunch reverted/replaced it with a user-generated source.[120]

WikiEditCrunch has been editing for 2+ years and has rated/assessed a lot of articles. They should be familiar with WP:Identifying reliable sources, WP:Citing sources, WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE, and basic copyediting (The Song Remains the Same (album) is written as The Song Remains the Same in articles, punctuation, spacing, etc.). However, these and other policies/guidelines are not followed. And now, they've added {{uw-disruptive1}} to my talk page?

—Ojorojo (talk) 23:46, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

 Comment: Being discussed with the editor. Alex Shih^Talk 01:56, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

WikiEditCrunch continues to add bare URL citations to sources that don't appear to support the text.[121] Additionally, they have once again removed {{refimprove}} ("Thre article is now well sopurced with reliable/independent/known sources."), despite the fact that there are several statements in the article that are not referenced ("Some speculate that ...", "Others are of the opinion ...", etc.). At a minimum, they should be restricted from removing any reference/citation/source related templates from articles. (see also their Request for page protection for The Ocean (song)[122]). —Ojorojo (talk) 14:17, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Mass indiscriminate addition of {{C-SPAN}}

Kev519 has for the past 3 days has been adding the {{C-SPAN}} template and links to many, many articles, without edit summaries, discussion or response to queries for an explaination. Consensus should be sought for this type of editing at the very least. - FlightTime (open channel) 02:00, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

•  Comment: I have issued a warning. This has been going on for a while, so the next edit of similar kind (appears to have stopped for today) will result in temporary sanction. Alex Shih^Talk 03:15, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• FYI, these are links to what appears to be a CSPAN archive of films/videos on various people e.g. in the Malcolm X article,

Appearances on C-SPAN

I don't see the problem. I noticed these additions for a few articles on my watchlist, and they're all appropriate External Link material. Since most editors don't know these resources are available, I think it actually makes sense to simply add this template to articles whose subjects have such archived CSPAN material, and other editors, in the few cases where the article doesn't benefit from the addition, can remove it. I sampled twenty of the article to which the addition had been made three days ago, and in no case has it been removed. This is pretty compelling evidence that in most case it's a useful addition.

I think Alex Shih's warning re "mass indiscriminate addition of information" is overkill and inappropriate. EEng 03:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, except that this place runs on consensus. The warning about process was correct. I think the links may well be a good addition but getting consensus before launching a campaign like that is wise, as is pausing to ensure consensus when people say "what's up with this". Jytdog (talk) 03:33, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

This place also runs on boldness, and I think this is a good bold move, easily undone in the cases where it's not an improvement. EEng 03:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes WP is a heady brew of libertarian and communitarian ideologies - it would fall apart without boldness and without consensus. As one of the most relational people here, i would expect you to be sensitive to the problem of people being nonresponsive, EE. ... Jytdog (talk) 04:05, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, he should respond, and he should use an edit summary (maybe, "suggested EL -- feel free to remove if not helpful for this article"). I'm relational? EEng 04:10, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

yes, Mister Sensitive! Jytdog (talk) 06:40, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

You're projecting. EEng 11:29, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think that while the addition of the links is somewhat useful, ignoring the multiple comments on his talk page is problematic behavior, especially if consensus is reached to undo his thousands of edits. nihlus kryik (talk) 03:35, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• At the very least he needs to use an edit summary for each addition. As to whether the indiscriminate mass edits themselves are useful, that's debatable. Softlavender (talk) 03:41, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Mass deletions and edit warring across celebrity articles by Hillbillyholiday

Noted issues

There are some recent mass deletions that I view as disruptive. As seen in the edit histories of the Jennifer Lawrence, Amanda Bynes, Megan Fox, Shia LaBeouf, Kanye West and Britney Spears articles, Hillbillyholiday has been mass deleting a lot of valid content from celebrity articles and edit warring over the matter with a number of editors; links are here, here, here, here, here and here. I addressed Hillbillyholiday about it on their talk page, stating, "Some of the content should perhaps be cut, but you should give editors a chance to assess these matters, especially when it's WP:GAs or WP:FAs involved, and especially when it's just an issue of trimming things and/or rewording things. Quotes can be summarized, for example. I am well aware that you cut things that you consider trivial or fluff, but Wikipedia editing is not supposed to be based on WP:IDON'TLIKEIT." Hillbillyholiday's response was that he or she is willing to listen, but that the content is "mountains of unimportant, irrelevant garbage" that "have reintroduced clear BLP violations and highly questionable sources" and that "The trouble is, most decent folk here are too scared of making drastic but necessary cuts, and too many articles are guarded by their creators, who are loathe to see anything go, often in the mistaken belief that because there is a star on the page it must be fine. Some of these bios got their 'GA' status nearly a decade ago and haven't been reassesed since. The whole concept of FA/GA is basically meaningless, and it's rather embarrassing having to use the terms in an argument, but if these articles are the best Wikipedia has to offer, or are seen as models for other bios, then we should all be ashamed." I stated that if Hillbillyholiday is willing to discuss, he or she would not be mass deleting non-BLP violating content without first addressing the matter on article talk pages and discussing it. He or she would not be edit warring all over the place. I also asked Hillbillyholiday what WP:BLP violations are the issue? I pointed to this Britney Spears deletion, for example, and commented: "In that edit summary, you stated that there is a WP:BLP violation. If so, then you should delete the WP:BLP violation, not delete chunks and chunks of material because you don't like it. We lose a lot of important material with these huge chunks you make to these articles. Overquoting is easily remedied." I also noted that I get Hillbillyholiday's point about WP:GAs and WP:FAs, but "WP:OWN is clear about treading carefully on WP:FA articles. In a lot of these cases, it doesn't matter that the article reached WP:FA years ago. There is still the fact that a lot of care went into these articles, including a lot of discussion about how they should be formatted."

When there is back and forth edit warring, and content deletion without giving editors a chance to justify their edits, and when some editors can barely catch their breath because they watch a number of these articles, I just don't see how these mass deletions are helpful (unless cutting WP:BLP violations and/or unencyclopedic content). Pinging the following involved editors: SNUGGUMS, FrB.TG, Krimuk2.0, Mattbuck, Sundayclose, RektGoldfish and FlightTime. I'm sure there are more editors, but I haven't yet looked at all the other recent deletions Hillbillyholiday has made and whether there have been objections and edit warring regarding them. Also, Hillbillyholiday already knew that I would be starting this thread. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:45, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I was only involved with the Jennifer Lawrence page. Regardless of overall article quality, Flyer is right that mass deletions (except for things like blatant BLP violations) should at least be discussed beforehand. Edit warring only makes things worse. I thought about bringing Hillbilly to WP:AN3 for it, but wasn't sure at the time if the user had reverted enough to warrant a block. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:12, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for this thread. It's particularly outrageous when such mass deletion is done for high-quality FA-class articles, and in the case of Lawrence, when it was featured on the bloody main page! On top of that, taking a snarky dig at my support for feminism is outrageous. I understand if this editor has issues with the sexualisation of women in mainstream media, but does Hillbilly really think that attacking well-meaning editors will help solve the issue? --Krimuk2.0 (talk) 06:40, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I have nothing new to add here, my comments can be seen at Hillbillyholiday's talk, I am here to support Flyer22 Reborn concerns and the starting of this thread. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:49, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I had problems with Hillbillyholiday on Amanda Bynes, where Hillbillyholiday removed the "Personal life" section almost in it's entirety (about one-third of the article). Hillbillyholiday's only explanation was in an edit summary: "way too much coverage of mental health issues, perhaps deserves reporting but briefly and in a sensitive manner with good sources". This subject's mental health issues have been in the forefront of her public life for the last five years; she has not worked as an actress for the last seven years. The content that Hillbillyholiday removed was sourced to NBC News, CBS News, and the L.A. Times, among others. Hillbillyholiday has not made any attempt at discussion. Hillbillyholiday has deleted the same content four times in the last three days, including the most recent revert of RektGoldfish. Hillbillyholiday seems to have ownership issues with a number of articles; when told that there might be a discussion here, Hillbillyholiday's response was "I doubt I'll be participating". Sundayclose (talk) 16:19, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, per that response, I don't think Hillbillyholiday is taking the problems others have expressed with his or her mass deletions seriously. Like I recently stated, "That supposed lack of concern, as though it's fine and dandy to keep doing this, is one of the problems. [...] Hillbillyholiday's reasons are not always very good. Hillbillyholiday often removes stuff on a WP:IDON'TLIKEIT basis, which is not how we should edit. See this dispute at Talk:Jennifer Lawrence? I agree with those who challenged Hillbillyholiday. Some stuff that Hillbillyholiday removes is very relevant and should be retained or simply trimmed or reworded, not deleted altogether. Some may not like that Jennifer Lawrence is a sex symbol, but it is a part of her notability and public image. For some removals across these articles, I don't think that Hillbillyholiday is completely in the wrong, but I do think that he or she is often going about them in the wrong way. When multiple editors disagree and are reverting you, for example, you should not keep removing the content unless there is some WP:BLP violation or some other serious issue. Edit warring is disruptive, and edit warring against multiple editors usually results in that lone editor getting blocked; so, if the editor does have a valid case for the deletions, then nothing is resolved except for the disruption.'" Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:58, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

SNUGGUMS, FrB.TG, Krimuk2.0, Mattbuck, Sundayclose, RektGoldfish and FlightTime, it's likely that the best thing to be done in this case is report Hillbillyholiday's edit warring at the WP:Edit warring noticeboard. As seen with this edit, Hillbillyholiday has reverted yet again, this time at the Shia LaBeouf article, despite the section I started at the Shia LaBeouf talk page. Hillbillyholiday clearly thinks he (or she) can do what he (or she) wants in this case, as is clear by the editor still taking hatchet jobs to articles and not even bothering to comment here. Hillbillyholiday is clearly waiting for this WP:ANI thread to blow over. If none of you want to start the case at the WP:Edit warring noticeboard, I will. After that, you all can weigh in there. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

(It's he.) Martinevans123 (talk) 12:09, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

User has been reported at AN3. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 00:51, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: When someone's edit history comes up a sea of undiscussed massive deletions [123], including of cited information, and undiscussed (or snarkily and dismissively discussed) edit-wars to keep the material deleted, that's a problem. If it doesn't stop, I suggest a topic-ban on direct editing of BLPs (at least until the crusade dies down). Softlavender (talk) 13:01, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Really? You'd keep stuff like this? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:08, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

That's not a massive deletion. And we all know that the Daily Mail is a poor source for WP:BLPs; it's been discussed to death, after all, and we had a big RfC on it earlier this year. Hillbillyholiday started that RfC. The problem is the massive deletions of non BLP-violating material by Hillbillyholiday and edit warring over it. Hillbillyholiday has a very strict and over-the-top view on what BLP violations are, and it all started around the time a certain editor/administrator was recklessly removing content sourced to People magazine and similar and Hillbillyholiday was emboldened and jumped on the bandwagon. Hillbillyholiday was wrong then, and he (or she) is often wrong now. A lot of decent content is lost because of Hillbillyholiday's odd views of WP:BLP and also because Hillbillyholiday simply removes anything he or she does not like. And the editor is still edit warring. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:12, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

You know what, I'm done with this editor, their constant "I know what's best" attitude and WP:OWN issues are too much. I suggest they replace the {{retired}} on their talk and take it to heart. - FlightTime (open channel) 14:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Flyer, you have said that it is fine to have a section on a BLP entitled "Mental health" which uses sources such as msn.com and usmagazine.com to provide facts about the subject's "depression", "paranoia", hospitalization, and diagnoses. (Talk:Kanye_West#Recent_deletions)

You think saying someone had a "public meltdown" in Wikipedia's voice is acceptable. (WP:BLP/N#Britney Spears)

Forgive me if I don't put much store by your comments when it comes to appropriate sourcing for BLPs. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 14:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Not sure how anyone can evaluate the sourcing on these articles so fast. --Moxy (talk) 14:43, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Hillbillyholiday, so you have finally graced us with your presence. Like I relayed before, get your story right when reporting on what I've stated. To repeat what I stated at the WP:Edit warring noticeboard: "As for the Kanye West matter, I clearly stated [...] The sources for the Mental health section of the West article are solid, except for one source. The sources are WP:BLP-compliant. So I am right about the sourcing. Whether or not the content should stay is another matter." I did not state that the section was fine. I stated that sources in that section are WP:BLP-compliant. I also stated that I had been concerned about the section before and had almost removed it. I also stated "we can ask about it at the WP:BLP noticeboard." If we are judging the section purely on sources, those sources, except for consequenceofsound.net, are fine. Here is a Billboard source from the section; it notes that West stated that he contemplated suicide. Not a WP:BLP violation. This The Los Angeles Times source states that West was persuaded by authorities to commit himself to a hospital. Not a WP:BLP violation. This Entertainment Tonight source states that West is formally undiagnosed. Not a WP:BLP violation. And this CNN source states that West was released from the hospital. Not a WP:BLP violation.

And I've explained the Spears matter well enough.

Stop trying to make it seem as though your massive deletions are normally removing egregious BLP violations and therefore you should not be sanctioned; that simply is not the case. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:59, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I never said CNN, Billboard, et al. were unreliable or BLP violating -- stop putting words in my mouth. I simply asked whether msn.com and usmagazine.com were acceptable sources for a subject's mental health issues, and you said they were ok. You also reckon "meltdown" (source: MTV) is a suitable descriptor. If you can't see how these opinions are problematic, I think you may need a topic-ban from BLP-related articles. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 15:22, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

And how exactly is MSN a BLP-violating source? Same goes for Us Weekly. Like I stated to you before, Us Weekly is the same category of sourcing as People magazine, which I remind you yet again was deemed to be generally fine for WP:BLPs. As I noted back then, that People RfC should not have focused solely on People since the disagreement was about People magazine and sources like it.

And, as you have no doubt seen, EdJohnston has also stated that he does not consider the Spears matter to be a WP:BLP violation.

The only topic ban here should be yours. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• My recent edits speak for themselves. I'm done here. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 15:37, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

You state that you are done, but I guarantee that you are going to wait for this matter to cool down and then start up your disruptive deletions and edit warring again, which is why I think that EdJohnston or some other administrator should propose an immediate block if (rather when) you start back up again. The slap on the wrist is not enough. I've seen this type of disruption from a number of editors. They almost always start back up again after things have cooled down. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Hillbillyholiday does and has done valuable work in refining and enforcing our most important rule. While I recognise that the intentions of Flyer22 Reborn are undoubtedly good, edits like this one and this one are problematic (note the edit summary on the latter). I caution this user that they are likely to be blocked if they attempt to edit-war material that they themselves acknowledge breaches BLP into articles. There are better ways to challenge a deletion that you disagree with. --John (talk) 19:30, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• • Thank you John for putting this into the correct perspective. He "does and has done valuable work in refining and enforcing" and it is out of order to label him as a vandal; little doubt why so many well-intentioned, enthusiastic editors walk away from Wikipedia. Cheers! Gareth Griffith‑Jones (The Welsh Buzzard) 20:02, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• • • John, you are WP:INVOLVED. Should I point to all of the ways that you are WP:INVOLVED, like Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive812#User:John and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons (WP:BLPs), or User talk:Flyer22 Reborn/Archive 14#Continuing disruption by User:John on biography articles, or this comment from I JethroBT noting the following: "John's arguments were not persuasive during the RfC and they shouldn't be elsewhere if that is the basis for disagreement."? A number of editors, including NeilN, Binksternet, NE Ent, Rivertorch, Johnuniq and Herostratus were of the opinion that you either acted disruptively and/or were WP:INVOLVED when it came to me. So I was waiting for you to show up since it was your massive deletions and misguided BLP assertions, as seen in that ANI case, that inspired Hillbillyholiday's disruption. It was also you, as the sole editor, who voted "No" to People magazine, while everyone else voted "Yes."

Neither this nor this are WP:BLP violations. In the latter case, the only supposed BLP violation that Hillbillyholiday noted is "public meltdown," but editors, including EdJohnston, disagree with Hillbillyholiday that use of "public meltdown" is a BLP violation in the case of the breakdown/meltdown that Spears acknowledges she had.

So nice try when it comes to trying to point the finger in my direction. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:05, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Mmmm. So what did A lot of this is not WP:BLP violations in any way. Do stop mass deleting content, especially on WP:GAs or WP:FAs. mean then? I suggest you modify your own behaviour, or it'll get you blocked. I can't really make it any simpler than that. --John (talk) 20:13, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, so you interpret me stating "A lot of this is not WP:BLP violations in any way" as stating that there were some BLP violations in the content? I was not. I was giving Hillbillyholiday the benefit of the doubt even though I did not see any BLP violations. And, as we can see, the only "BLP violation" he cited is "public meltdown," which is something others do not agree is a BLP violation. And even if there had been a BLP violation, it does not justify his mass deletions at that article. That is why both FlightTime and Softlavender also reverted. It is why EdJohnston stated, "If it turns out that Hillbilyholiday engages in edit warring on other articles such as Shia LaBeouf, then someone could file a new AN3 report specifying that article. Massive content removal from BLP articles on the grounds of general article quality isn't supported by WP:3RRNO as an exception to our edit warring rules. Such removals need editor consensus."

So your threat of blocking me is uncalled for. Not only that, it is in direct conflict with the WP:INVOLVED policy. Just like all those years ago with your silly threats about blocking me over use of People magazine, you are back to threatening me. I see that you haven't changed. And let's not pretend that you are talking about someone else blocking me; your tone, including in your edit summary, clearly shows that you intend to be the one doing the blocking. I suggest you modify your line of thinking, or otherwise be sanctioned for administrative abuse. Any block you throw on me would be undone in a matter of minutes. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining what your edit summary meant. As for the rest of it, you've been warned and should now either retire and reconsider or save it for the unblock request. Your choice. I won't reply to you again here. --John (talk) 20:44, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

So not only do you not admit that you are wrong, you double down on your block threat? I repeat: A number of editors found you to be wrong all those years ago and noted that you are WP:INVOLVED when it comes to me. You were wrong all those years ago. And you are wrong now. You have not at all shown how Hillbillyholiday is in the right. You are simply here making baseless threats that are obviously unbecoming of an administrator, all because of your silly grudge and your skewed interpretation of what BLP violations are. You really think you are untouchable, don't you? You remember that NeilN was one of the main editors challenging you before, right? You do know that he is an administrator now, don't you? Do you think that he would not unblock me if you blocked me? Because I'm willing to bet that he would. I've been waiting for you to retire for years, but we can't all get our wish. Either way, block me and see what happens. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:59, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

SPA at Alawites

يوسف_عاشق_الجبل (talk · contribs · count) has been adding the same unsourced line in the article Alawites since 2016 (1-2-3-4-5-6), despite reversions by multiple editors. After asking why, I got some vague answer about sectarian lies, so for the time being I left it in with a citation-needed tag. But now even that has been reverted. Case of WP:TRUTH and WP:IDHT. --HyperGaruda (talk) 04:07, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

BLP vio in edit summary - needs to be removed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

[124]. Calling a living person a "racist" without sources or any kind of backup is a clear cut BLP violation. At the least, the edit summary should be oversighted (or rev-del or whatever). The user who made it should be at the very least warned.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:23, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned, the "sources or any kind of backup" were clearly provided on the talkpage (see here). That is my considered opinion. Quis separabit? 14:28, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

No such sources were provided. You did not provide a single source which "backs up" calling this person racist. This needs to go.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Is your issue with the content, the edit summary or both? We generally don't cite statements in edit summaries. Some of her comments [125] could easily fit the description in the edit summary and are represented and well cited in Symone Sanders . Toddst1 (talk) 17:02, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

My issue is with an editor calling somebody "a racist" in an edit summary. That's not hard to understand.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

This isn't your first rodeo. How did you miss the prominent notice, in a red box, in over-sized type, in bold, and accompanied by a bright red warning symbol telling you that this is not the place to post suppression requests?--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:29, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't want to email anyone.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

This term "racist" is getting thrown around way too carelessly in the real world. While there's not much we can do here to straighten out the real world, the least we can do in not to jump on this mindless bandwagon. I rev-deled the summary.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:35, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Endless disruptive edits, and total refusal to discuss their edits

Appah Rao (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been discussed here before, in a report that by most here was seen as "just" a content dispute, but this is not about content disputes, but about a total refusal to collaborate with other editors, discuss their edits on the talk pages of the articles edited, and get consensus for their edits. Appah Rao obviously dislikes the use of "decisive" in the short summary in the infobox of articles about historical battles and wars, all over the world, and just removes it, without ever discussing the change (I looked at their contributions but didn't find a single attempt to discuss their edits on an article talk page...), and edit-warring over it against anyone reverting them (see their contributions, all of their many edits, many of which are reverts, removing exactly nine bytes removed "decisive", as did quite a few of their other edits..). And not even discussing it afterwards, when being contacted on their talk page (their talk page history is full of attempts by other editors, me included, to make them understand how things work here, posts that are quickly removed by them...). And they've been doing it since their first day here: their second edit removed "decisive" from the outcome of the Battle of the Philippine Sea, which very much was a decisive American victory, and my previous contact with them was about their repeated removal of "decisive" from the outcome of the Ottoman–Safavid War (1623–39), which also was a truly decisive victory since it ended a long period of almost continuous wars, and brought 150 years of peace to the region. A discussion where they made false claims about what had happened, and when confronted by me over it, just deleted my comments, but let their own lame-ass excuse stay on their talk page. Their contributions, with ~180 edits on articles, most of them removing "decisive", and only seven on article talk pages, some of those being undiscussed moves of articles about French regions, that were promptly reverted by other editors for being moved to totally wrong names, clearly shows that they're not here to collaborate, only to push their own agenda. So the sum total of their activities here is that they're just a big time-sink for other editors, here only to "right great wrongs" (why else would anyone systematically remove "decisive" from the infobox of every article about a war or battle they see?), and not to collaborate with others, and build an encyclopaedia.... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 21:47, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

 Comment: To clarify what the original poster is saying, this is a common problem faced by WP:MILHIST: Arbitrary removal of "decisive" from the term decisive victory simply because of personal taste, when the historical outcome has been clearly established by reliable sources. It is a content dispute only when it is being done with one subject/area of interest, but it is certainly not a content dispute when it is being done indiscriminately across wide different areas of interest without the regard to the context itself. The issue is currently being discussed with the editor. Alex Shih^Talk 01:44, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to give a free pass, were it just a matter of the pattern. As you say, it does suggest someone who is making changes on the basis of some highly idiosyncratic semantic standard, without due consideration for what the sources say on the matter. But even so, were they discussing/dropping the matter in any instance where they were reverted, I would probably be inclined to call it a good faith (if perhaps less than ideal) approach. But it's the edit warring that elevates this to outright disruption and that's the behaviour which I think most pressingly needs to be addressed. Well, that and (if I am reading the above correctly) removing other user's comments from talk pages in violation of WP:TPG.

All that said, from the discussion on their talk page, it doesn't look like the user is completely entrenched and unwilling to adapt their approach; from discussion there, it looks like they are content to add citation needed tags. That strategy itself might still lead them into some conflict (especially if they try to mass-paste it across the same span of articles they've simply been removing the term from up until now), but I think it still offers some cause for optimism, because it demonstrates that Rao is doing this from the perspective of an editor, with a rough policy argument in mind, not just some compulsive need to remove the word because it doesn't equate with their perspective. Hopefully the user transitions that to a more engaged and discussion-oriented approach. Snow ^{let's rap} 06:52, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I've also noticed some editors who feel that such adjectives are POV in historical articles. I think it is much too cramped an approach.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:39, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

User:ClueBot NG is malfunctioning

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This bot reverted my legitimate edit to "Curtis Lazar" and left a "vandalism" warning on my talk page.

GoFlamesGo (talk) 01:36, 20 August 2017 (UTC)GoFlamesGo

Actually, it isn't malfunctioning. Although your edit wasn't vandalism, it wasn't appropriate for an encyclopedia, and I wouldn't even call the bot response a false positive. I further note that your conduct at Johnny Gaudreau is less than exemplary. Acroterion (talk) 01:39, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Kazakh tennis

Laura Shalabayeva and Anastasiya Zakharova have been created and then deleted as non-notable about three times now. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/JulianLeeberher09/Archive. They have now been recreated again by TwoLittleCat2 (talk · contribs). I am assuming that this is another sock. Is there another way to prevent this from continuing? Note from the previous investigation that the user is using minor changes in spelling of the names to create these articles. Adamtt9 (talk) 02:18, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Saw Shalabayeva when patrolling CSD. I've salted. StarM 03:01, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Some admin action required for Zapad 2017 exercise

User talk:Vladimir serg has been continuously reverting the artcile to outdated and totally inadequate version, without any explanations, or discussion. The account is solely used for reverts of this artcile.Axxxion (talk) 13:20, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Yo Axxxion, it's a clear content dispute at the moment, and they generally don't get covered here. But since that editor soes seem to have been engaging in a slow-burning edit-war, you might like to file a report at WP:WPANEW. About which behaviour, incidently, they have now been advised upon. Cheers, — fortunavelut luna 14:10, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, Thanks for your intervention. But I disagree with your interpretation of the situation with this article: there is no actual dispute here: very easy to see that if you will take a closer look at what has been happening there for the past several weeks. For there is no real editor behind the account User:Vladimir serg, which is in reality a single-purpose account used exclusively for mechanical reverts of just this particular article to the text, which in turn is a machine-translated Ru WP version of the corresponding article from late June, whereas the article needs regular update, as it is about an event that is to happen. These reverts are in effect disruptive activity, pure and simple. The article needs semi-protection status, which is also called-for due to the fact that the topic is potentially politically loaded and controversial.Axxxion (talk) 18:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Besides, there is an obvious Wikipedia:Civility issue with this account′s last (and only) posting: [126]. All attempts to engage the person behind this account in any discussion have been futile. Most likely he has no English-language competence, in the first place.Axxxion (talk) 18:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Voltron: Legendary Defender unregistered user problem

Hi there! This unregistered user 2601:545:8202:4EA5:4C05:5527:3B3A:3B36 keeps adding non-essential details to the article's episode summaries. I have explained why i reverted the edit, but it does not seem to take and the user has resorted to name calling. I'm unsure how to progress.--Refuteku (talk) 16:23, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

You, of course, are presenting only your side of events. You labeled my editing "vandalism" BEFORE I applied any epithets, which is in fact what led me to it. And the evaluation of my edits as "non-essential details" is purely your subjective opinion. I also provided corrections to passages poorly constructed by even an objective measure. 2601:545:8202:4EA5:4C05:5527:3B3A:3B36 (talk) 16:36, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I should indeed have used the term "disruptive editing", that is correct. Now about the episode summaries. The character Pidge's gender had no relevance to the plot as none of the characters performed any plot related actions due to this revelation. And most of your grammar corrections were unsuited for an encyclopedic article.--Refuteku (talk) 16:28, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

No, "disruptive editing" is NOT correct. And your assessments are still your subjective opinions, despite your attempt to claim otherwise. For example, "continually" was the correct word to use, rather than "continuously"; but you first dismissed my entire edit within 3 minutes, clearly without careful consideration. 2601:545:8202:4EA5:4C05:5527:3B3A:3B36 (talk) 17:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

No, it's correct, since you have refused to discuss your edits in a civilized manner. Continually and continuously can both be used, if that's what you are hung up about. It's better to revert a large edit entirely, and then add the proper stuff from it afterwards which is now have done. This is preferably done by the first user, but as you started of by being aggressive i figured you were not interested in that.--Refuteku (talk) 17:24, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I have not "refused" anything! You never offered the opportunity; you only reverted "vandalism". You are DEAD WRONG about "continuously/continually", not that, as you well know, that is really the only issue. Your summary reversions put lie to any notion that I am a sole, or even initial, aggressor here, "not interested" in discussion -- which raises another issue: your continual distortion of the situation. 2601:545:8202:4EA5:4C05:5527:3B3A:3B36 (talk) 17:45, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• One of the more entertaining page histories I've seen in a while [127]. And continually is decidedly the right word. EEng 17:47, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Continually it is then :)--Refuteku (talk) 18:01, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

If only there were some way these disparate editors could combine their efforts to form, say, a giant robot with a blazing sword. But I digress. Dumuzid (talk) 18:04, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

lol, well, the effort needs to come from both users.--Refuteku (talk) 18:15, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

A plague on all their houses, but especially Refuteku's. Most episode summaries, especially of animated series, are pretty much "non-essential details" themselves, and srguing about individual summaries is so plainly content dispute that it's hard to see Refuteku's accusations of vandalism against an apparently new editor as the actions of a reasonable, good faith editor -- especially without the slightest effort to use the article talk page. Violating WP:BITE does more damage to Wikipedia than adding a few words more than a guideline calls for does, by any rational measure. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 19:41, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I see, well i do apologize for using the word "vandalism". I was slightly annoyed by the all caps "Leave it alone" revert the user did. I think it was after the second revert that the user wrote on my talk page and i tried to make it clear why i reverted the users additions. Albeit i did not explain it from all angles in my response. And i probably should have told the user to stop editing until we reached a conclusion.--Refuteku (talk) 21:21, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

User:QuackGuru and Judeo-Christian related articles

QuackGuru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User has recently started making these kinds of posts in Judeo-Christian related articles and talk pages:

• "Adultery and forced sex with Bathsheba" and "David is a rapist" where he is caught cherry picking to push a rape interpretation when (as was quickly demonstrated by other users, sometimes with the very sources QuackGuru cited to begin with) scholars are quite divided on the issue.
• Citing a vanity-press published work to argue against the notion of a creator deity (not simply young earth creationism, but something that, by definition, is outside the boundaries of science)
• Citing a 1829 work for the "scientific view" (which he soon started treating as only the view held only by non-religious persons) regarding a metaphysical belief.
• "God is a Rapist?" - where he engages in misrepresentative WP:SYNTH to push the idea that Jesus was the product of rape. This wasn't a good-faith suggestion of incorporating material about Pan(d/t)era into a relevant part of the article, this was trying to portray followers of Abrahamic religions as rape-worshipers.
• Arguing that the Jesus article (which explains what atheists think of Jesus and does not claim that anyone outside of Christianity believes Jesus is divine to begin with) doesn't explain the non-religious view, which he tried to resolve by replacing the content on atheism with undue weight on New Atheism.
• Responding to a warning to quit disrupting an article with "I will continue"

Please see Talk:Jesus for more.

Between the WP:ADVOCACY to portray the followers of the Abrahamic religions as rape-worshippers, the WP:UNDUE emphasis on New Atheism, and the continual disregard for WP:RS he's showing, a mixture of WP:IDHT, WP:CIR, and/or WP:TEND (I know not in what proportions) apply here. Regardless of whichever worldview one is being a sectarian for, regardless of whichever group of people is being vilely misrepresented, we don't allow that kind of sectarianism to get near our articles.

This behavior is very recent but given this user's prior history for similar behavior on other topics, maybe he could use an earlier heads up to change course. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:39, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• The content I recently added to Bathsheba is still in the article per talk page consensus. And another editor added the same content I added to Bathsheba to the David article.

• I discussed what was the issue with the Xulon Press source after the content was removed.

• I did discuss the controversial issues at the Jesus talk page after I read many sources. I was not trying to portray followers of Abrahamic religions as rape-worshipers. That's absurd. There are things that are not clearly explained in the article. The same as other pages. See Talk:Bathsheba#David is a rapist.

• The article is unclear and I am discussing it on the talk page.[128]

• See Talk:Jesus#Failed_verification. The content failed verification. I provided a source to verify the claim. The source was removed with the edit summary "rv WP:UNDUE. Everyone who isn't a Christian rejects Jesus's divinity". The revert does not clearly explain why the edit was reverted. Providing a source to verify the claim is not WP:UNDUE. Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue does not apply to content that failed verification. The source stated "New Atheists"[129] not atheists in general. I made a small change to the content in order for it to pass verification using the source presented.

• I was not responding to a warning. I was stating that I was continuing my editing on another page by providing a link to another article.

• Ian.thomson Stated "I'm focusing on disruptive behavior."[130] See WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE: "Try to avoid discussing conduct issues on article Talk pages." I previously explained on the talk page to focus on content. See WP:FOC: "Focus on article content during discussions, not on editor conduct; comment on content, not the contributor." QuackGuru (talk) 17:08, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Ah, this explains QuackGuru's ill-fated attempt to rewrite WP:Administrators. I assume that this was the secret underlying dispute that QuackGuru wouldn't disclose and was trying to win when he tried to add an oddly-specific line to WP:ADMIN a few days ago: [131], Wikipedia talk:Administrators#Replacing sourced content with failed verification content. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:48, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

So, WP:Gaming the system? That level of deliberation makes it hard to assume good faith. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:53, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, that attempt to insert the block-the-admin-for-a-year is one of the silliest, most ham-handed things I've ever seen an experienced editor do. EEng 18:14, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• This enough leads me to question QG's intentions. Gaming and POV-pushing are absolutely clear. I recommend the editor to back off this topic area completely for a while until they lose this malicious momentum. It isn't too late to apologize and move on. --QEDK (愛 • 海) 18:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I spotted the failed verification content just today. This edit was made on 19:32, 16 August 2017. It is completed unrelated to this revert made on 15:44, 20 August 2017. This edit was made on 15:40, 20 August 2017. Check the dates. This is a new dispute. I added a source to verify the content and made a small tweak to the content. The content still fails verification. See Talk:Jesus#Failed_verification. QuackGuru (talk) 18:09, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
    • There's no way to tell if there's a real connection and I'm not going to agree or disagree with you. But since you made that edit to WP:ADMIN, and then proceeded to carry out controversial actions along the same lines, the first and clearest assumption is some hidden POV pushing agenda. --QEDK (愛 • 海) 18:14, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
• I've had my own run-ins with QuackGuru, and I would heartily welcome his absence from any of the articles I edit. But I think this is rather more complicated than POV-pushing against Christians and I would advise against closing this thread early or imposing a simplistic solution.

  QG's basic modus operandi is to defend the scientific viewpoint against the unscientific one by paying close attention to the scientific sources, and when he does it in articles about medical content this is viewed as a net positive by the community, because it tends to exclude people who want to push homeopathy or acupuncture from being able to edit in medical topic areas. That's the main reason why an editor with his rather extensive block log is still unbanned: he is source-focused and he prefers the scientific sources to the in-bubble ones. Taking that approach into articles about Abrahamic religions strikes me as a little unwise, but it's consistent with all of QG's well-established behaviours.

  I actually think that what we need here is a way to distinguish Quackguru's valuable and useful behaviours from the unproductive ones that make him really really annoying to deal with. The thing he does with "failed verification" tags is a longstanding behaviour, and I think that underneath it all he doesn't get the fundamental concept of verifiability. He's got a history of using {{fv}} tags on individual words. I think he doesn't see that verifiability is on the level of facts, theories and concepts rather than words and phrases; and won't listen to that if you tell him because he assumes you are the one pushing the unscientific POV. I also think he doesn't get the fundamental concept of source reliability, because he acts as if the most skeptical source is always the most reliable one. But what he isn't doing is intentionally pushing a POV. That's not him. These behaviours are motivated by a genuine wish to improve the encyclopaedia ---- combined with an unfortunate tendency to inappropriately personalise content disputes by classifying editors as "scientific" or "unscientific" and treating the "unscientific" ones as hostile.—S Marshall T/C 18:43, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Please see Talk:Jesus#Failed verification. Adding a source to verify a claim should not be a problem. The problem is when the source is removed and the content still fails verification. QuackGuru (talk) 18:49, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• You see, Quack, this is exactly the kind of thing I mean. Someone wrote "Atheists reject Jesus' divinity", and you tagged it with {{fv}}. And you don't understand why that calls your editorial judgment into question.—S Marshall T/C 19:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• After reading the source it did not verify the content. And then I added a source to verify the content and made a small tweak to accurately reflect the source. See WP:FAILEDVERIFICATION: "Material that fails verification may be tagged with {{failed verification}} or removed." Rather than leave a tag I added a source. QuackGuru (talk) 19:10, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

S Marshall, you confirm my impression of what I've seen of his presence on other parts of the site, which is why I haven't suggested blocking. Hopefully, a notice from the community that he should focus on other topics would be enough. Otherwise a restriction like (as you mention below) a topic ban might be necessary. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• He won't do what you tell him to do. You going to need something logged and enforced. Expect him to conform to the letter of the restriction while trying to circumvent of the spirit of it, so if we do go down the topic ban route, we'll need to define the scope of the ban very carefully. It may be better to identify specific problem behaviours, rather than a range of articles, for him to avoid (or a combination of some behaviours and some specific articles). Awilley has extensive experience of this user and what he says is worth reading closely.—S Marshall T/C 21:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• If QuackGuru doesn't appreciate the problematic nature of some of his contributions, a block is certainly called for. Power~enwiki (talk) 18:55, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• No, do not block Quack. At most the remedy should be a topic ban from articles about religion. On medicine, we need him.—S Marshall T/C 19:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Seconded re not blocking for now. Were this a user who had not demonstrated any usefulness elsewhere, I'd probably be filing this just to confirm that it was OK for me to have already pulled the trigger on a WP:CIR/Trolling block, but QG has shown some usefulness on particular topics. I can't say that a topic ban from all religion articles is necessary yet. Broadly construed, that would overlap with quackery related articles since some quacks love to use religion as a shield. So far, there's only been issues with stances on Biblical matters but there is the question of whether or not the behavior will spread to other religion articles. "Bible-related articles" would end up covering some pages that don't necessarily concern religion (e.g. Philistines). "Bible-related religion articles" still has occasional overlap with quackery if broadly construed as possible, though an amendment "except where modern medical practice is concerned" would fix that in any case. Though this is only if a topic ban proves necessary. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

It looks like he will move on to other articles about other religions. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:29, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I am trying to resolve this dispute regarding the content. See "Ian.thomson, do you have a suggestion on how to resolve this dispute since the current content fails verification?"[132] I think it can be quickly resolved by adding one source to verify the content since the source at the end of the sentence does not verify this part. QuackGuru (talk) 19:33, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I would support a topic ban from religious articles. QuackGuru's single-minded approach and tenacity combined with numerous competence issues make them a pain to work with in any capacity. They are amazingly tendentious and daring to disagree with them results in so much WP:SOUP that it's usually easier to just edit elsewhere. That said, I think an outright block/ban would go too far, as QG's knowledge of medicine-related sources is valuable to the encyclopedia. I appreciate their efforts to expose quackery and defend science, and I applaud people who look at religious belief with a critical scientific eye. But QuackGuru's hamfisted approach is not going to improve articles about religious belief, and the degree of their misdirection can be seen by their bizarre proposal to add the following sentence to the Lede section of our Jesus article: "According to science, Jesus is not God's son." Thank you, science, for clearing that up. ~Awilley (talk) 19:55, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I made a proposal but did not add it to the article. @Jytdog: explained on the talk page your POV reversions to the David article. I partially reverted your changes. Because there is disagreement does not mean an editor should try to topic ban another editor. My edits did improve articles about religious belief. If an editor reverted my edit I did discuss it. QuackGuru (talk) 20:24, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment But surely we can hardly allow QG's "hamfisted approach" in areas where it suits us but ban it in others? Surely what we must do is hold them to the same editing standards as everyone else, and if that is impossible, dispense with their services? This is what we generally do. --John (talk) 20:01, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
    • @John, it is my view that QG is a net-positive on medicine-related articles despite being annoying and sometimes disruptive, and a net-negative on religion-related articles. ~Awilley (talk) 20:36, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I have been watching QG's entrance into this topic with some.... well watchfulness. QG often gets involved in articles where there is some long-term POV pushing that is harming the neutrality of our content, and generally QG has been on the side of the angels, which is why the community has continued to tolerate their somewhat "beserker" tactics. In the case of the David/Bathsheba stuff, it is absolutely true that QG eventually arrived at very well-sourced and excellently neutral content dealing with the very terse biblical text about David and Bathsheba, which had consensus from everyone at the talk page. I don't think there is need for any action here. The OP said that the purpose of their post was to warn QG not to take the tactics too far, and I believe that has been accomplished. Jytdog (talk) 20:44, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

AlexTrevex Pt. 2

• AlexTrevex (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Following up on this report, after a stern warning from Beyond My Ken, the editor is still engaging in the same type of disruption; posting short, extraordinarily poorly-worded diatribes against skeptics/scientists and promoting pseudoscientific subjects, particularly alt-medicine. Diffs: [133], [134], [135] and [136]. The description I gave represents 100% of this user's edits. They don't have even a single edit to article space, just these little mini-diatribes. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:44, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Looks like someone who isn't here to build an encyclopedia to me. Also looks like someone who is randomly concatenating fortune cookie messages. A Train^talk 20:26, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed the lack of edits to articles. I'd say the combination of that and the talk page comments adds up to WP:NOTHERE, WP:NOTPROPAGANDA, WP:NOTBLOG, and, not the least WP:FRINGE. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:54, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

What's fringe about Mermaids exist. Barack Obama saw them in the government lab? [137] EEng 21:45, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I'm startled to see such behavior from the host of Jeopardy! EEng 21:35, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Annoyance by claims of no changes made

• 80.181.119.244 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Redmary73 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Template:Weapons of mass destruction (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Both the IP and the user have been non-stop annoying my Talk page and clogging my email with messages such as "Please fix your mistake" or "I can't see Italy in the list" even after I answered the edit request the IP made. This, to me, does not make sense, and I even tried to tell them to refresh the page/purge the cache, but they keep doing it. I don't understand! jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 21:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Update: IP claims I am "avoiding" the issue. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 21:34, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I asked him to add Italy in the list of Weapons of mass destruction article.Italy in fact has the referred article Italian nuclear weapons program.He said yes but he acted the oppsite.You can judge easily.Or he lied or he is unable.80.181.119.244 (talk) 21:36, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment: The User/IP asked for a change to the template Template:Weapons of mass destruction with an edit notice. Jd22292 performed it. The user then took to his talk page to repeatedly ask why it wasn't done. The issue is that the user was reading the page Italian nuclear weapons program and it had not refreshed yet. I purged the page. The update is now visible. -- ferret (talk) 21:40, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I want to see the article if has Italy.80.181.119.244 (talk) 21:41, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Here is the diff of the change. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 21:41, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

IP: Please stop messaging Jd22292, the change was made. The article has to be refreshed before it shows, and I have performed that. Jd22292: If you're aware of page purging and had an idea what page the editor was talking about, it'd probably be best to just help them and purge. Purge is not a feature most editors know about. -- ferret (talk) 21:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I have also purged Weapons of mass destruction. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 21:43, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

 Note: Other pages that have the template transcluded will also need a purge to reflect the changes. The purge has not happened on each. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 21:44, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I saw ,you are right and i beg your pardon.I saw Redmary73 didn't last in write you.80.181.119.244 (talk) 21:45, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• This should safe to close. The IP has acknowledged that they made a mistake and unless Redmary73 plans to continue insisting that Italy was not added the main issue have been resolved and all parties should move on.--76.65.42.75 (talk) 21:50, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Anon reverting my edits out of spite

2602:304:788B:DF50:95CC:313F:A69C:59A9 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This is my first ANI so bear with me. When I revert this IP (s)he goes into my contribs and reverts something from me.

At Watchmaker analogy I reverted [here] and [here]. (S)he proceeded to revert me [here].

I had similar problems with this anon last March. Also starting with me reverting him at Watchmaker. Different IP but the same person. fwiw here is a discussion on my talk page. These are my warnings to him User talk:2602:304:788B:DF50:8CDD:5461:389A:631B#Bebop, here are the diffs [one], [two], [this one he was right].

Also note when editors come on his talk page he's more often than not confrontational and snippy.

My issue here is that he's starting this behavior anew and I'm quite certain the community has strict policies about this kind of disruption.

If I don't present my case well here - let's hope I don't get too much practice. SlightSmile 21:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)