Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

RfC: First mention in the first sentence... (MOS:JOBTITLES)

Should the first mention of a position in the first sentence of the article about the position be de-capitalized? See collapsed just above this line. Relisted by C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:35, 6 January 2020 (UTC), originally opened by Coffeeandcrumbs 22:16, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

!vote "yes" or "no"

• Yes. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:29, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
• (moved from Discussion below) Yes. Where it appears in the article is irrelevant, and if it's capitalized early on in the lead, then people will capitalize it everywhere, per MOS:ARTCON.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

  See clarification below; in the wake of polarized attention being drawn to this RfC (a month after its expiration), some of the responses to it seem to be misunderstand what it means.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:54, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

  @SMcCandlish: Can you clarify if that is a "yes" to my comment or a "yes" !vote to the RFC question of de-capitalizing first mention of the position?—Bagumba (talk) 12:20, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

  It was a "yes" !vote to the RfC question; I didn't notice the intervening subhead. In response to your comment, part of the point of the wording of MOS:JOBTITLES is a compromise between "traditionalist" and "contemporary" styles. If the subject of the material is itself the title/position, then it can be capitalized, if it's a unique title that is often capitalized, and treating it that way makes some sense in the context. Thus, President of the United States should begin with "The President of the United States ..." (while Chief executive officer should not capitalize that title, being generic). In a genericized context, that same PotUS-related phrase would not be capitalized: "Tension levels between the president of the United States and the prime minister of the UK have varied considerably by who in particular has been in these offices. However, the two countries have been careful to maintain their alliance since the 19th century." It would be easier, "in a vacuum", to just never capitalize these things except when directly connected to a name. But it's not easy in practice; we're not going to get consensus to do that. Just getting consensus to not capitalize every f'ing occurrence has taken a decade+ and lots of proof that mainstream, off-site sources are no longer, in the main, rampantly capitalizing them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:04, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

• Yes per SMcCandlish reasoning. If this does go thru, MOS:JOBTITLE should distinguish it from the existing "Richard Nixon was the president of the United States" example, which is presumably not capitalized because "the" precedes "president" (?).—Bagumba (talk) 11:52, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
  • What is this rule about a preceding "the"? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:16, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
    • @SmokeyJoe: See end about articles: When a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article)—Bagumba (talk) 10:37, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Striking my !vote for now. I realized that SMcCandlish said capitalize for President of the United States, but not for Chief executive officer. That might be OK, but is more of a "depends" than a definite "yes". Will revisit later.—Bagumba (talk) 10:41, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• Yes. Per SMcCandlish Gog the Mild (talk) 13:19, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Many of these positions are never decapitalised in any form of usage, so it'd just be an attempt to use Wikipedia to push a position. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:26, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose we are not leaders of global change nor the standardisation of the english language we respect what the source say and the unique styles of every country. Now I really dont give a flyingfox about us-english, Australian English style guides say that where a title is used in relation to or conjunction with an individual the title is capitalised. Gnangarra 02:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

  I don't know where you got the idea that this practice was more common in U.S. It is not any more common to decapitalize in the U.S. than it is in Australia. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:57, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• It depends. As a rule, no. Often to usually, yes. If the term is treated as a proper name by most quality sources, like “39th President of the United States” or “34th Premier of Victoria”, then it should be treated as a proper name and capitalized, on every use. These wordy proper names are not much repeated after the lede, so the notion is setting a bad example is not compelling. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:47, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
• No Personally I think MOS:JOBTITLES should be removed from the MOS. It's unnecessary and obviously conflicts with real-world usage per Coffeandcrumbs and TDW below. Number 57 16:02, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
• Yes. This is best practice and decapitalisation is consistent with many other sources, albeit not all. Deferring this element of style to source usage on a case-by-case basis would prolong rows that the manual of style can and should prevent. Ralbegen (talk) 16:25, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment - The Rfc tag expired about a month ago. This Rfc should've been closed. GoodDay (talk) 16:53, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
• No... This is an extreme reading of MOS:JOBTITLES. When a governmental position is itself the subject of an article, we should capitalize the name of that position. ESPECIALLY when the position is held by one person (ie not generic). Blueboar (talk) 22:06, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
• Comment - If you capitalise in the intro or decapitalise, shouldn't this be done through out the entire article? GoodDay (talk) 23:09, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
• Yes per SMcCandlish. CThomas³ (talk) 23:15, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Specific positions are proper nouns and we shouldn't be forcing awkward decapitalisation onto every article. MOS:JOBTITLES is an unnecessary confused mess (particularly given different approaches in different countries). Timrollpickering (Talk) 23:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, of course. Oxford Style Guide, The Chicago Manual of Style, AP Stylebook, and Wikipedia's own style guide are all clear on this. I have yet to see a single academic style guide that prescribes capitalizing job titles in such a case. Surtsicna (talk) 23:42, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

1. Richard Nixon was the president of the United States.
2. Richard Nixon was a president of the United States.
3. Nixon was the 37th president of the United States.

Do the external style guides speak directly to 1 & 3? I think 1 & 3 should be capitalized, while 2 should not. I think the preponderance of sources supports this. I note that there is a trend over many decades to capitalize less, however, "37th President of the United States" can be read as a proper name. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:11, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

As another point of reference, Britannica doesn't capitalise 3: here and 1: here. But that's about MOS:JOBTITLES more generally and not within the scope of this RfC. which is just about articles about positions. Ralbegen (talk) 00:23, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Considering that none of the style guides Surtsicna mentioned are freely available online, it'd be extremely helpful for clarifying this discussion if people could cite, specifically, the guidance they're relying on, as we're getting into the less obvious nuances of capitalisation principles and it's very hard to tell (considering how much it, in many if not most cases here, differs from common usage) if these takes are things that they're actually explicitly trying to prescribe or the interpretation of some Wikipedians. The Drover's Wife (talk) 00:30, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

CMOS 17 says that when a title is "preceded by the or by a modifier", "it is considered not a title but rather a descriptive phrase and is therefore lowercased". Does this help? —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 00:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it's really useful for these discussions to be able to refer to the actual text of these so we know we're not talking at cross-purposes: if I'm apparently disagreeing with the take of the CMOS in some situations, it's useful to know that I'm actually disagreeing with their take in some situations and not some Wikipedian's interpretation of it. Do you have the other ones Surtsicna referred to handy by any chance? Ultimately I'd like to get to understand the style guide differences that are causing the clashes with what's actually being used in real-life, for lack of a better word, sources - because this specific RfC is a big one for that - and I'm just not enough of a MOS nerd (meant in the nicest possible way) to have these things on hand. The Drover's Wife (talk) 00:57, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

I only subscribe to CMOS, since that's what my employer uses. I can see if the others are available at my local library. (Separately, if you are willing to WikiMail me, I'll send you more explicit examples from CMOS.) —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 01:03, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm about to run off for work, but that'd be fantastic. I'll see if I can dig up copies of the others myself. The other thing I meant to add about digging these up is that our guideline is not particularly clearly written regardless of one's take on the issue and I'm generally keen on greater clarity, so reference to the actual language of style guides might provide us guidance on tightening that up regardless of which stance our guide ultimately takes on some of the finer nuances of capitalisation. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:11, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe:, @The Drover's Wife:: CMOS (16th edition) 8.21: "Much of the usage below is contradicted by the official literature typically generated by political offices, where capitalization of a title in any position is the norm (see 8.19). In formal academic prose, however, civil titles are capitalized only when used as part of the name (except as noted)."
AP Style Book: "In general, confine capitalization to formal titles used directly before an individual’s name."
Oxford Style Guide: "Use capitals for titles prefixing names, but not for job descriptions." (It might be relevant to note the example given by Oxford Style Guide: The 17th president of the United States was Andrew Johnson.)
In short, yes, these style guides do speak directly to 1 and 3 in that they all clearly state that titles should be capitalized only when preceding the holder's name (and are not set off by commas). This means that MOS:JOBTITLES is much more accepting of capitalization than the world's major academic style guides, and that any move towards more uppercasing on Wikipedia would set the project apart from mainstream academic prose. It would be a mistake. Surtsicna (talk) 01:17, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the quotes - as I said to Eyer, it's really useful to know what, specifically, they say as we start getting into quite nuanced areas. Am I reading you correctly that the CMOS acknowledges that they're contradicting normal layperson usage though? That seems surprising. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:31, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

You are welcome! No, the CMOS says that the usage in "formal academic prose" is contradicted by the "official literature typically generated by political offices". There is no mention of normal laypeople, whoever that may be. For example, while gov.uk capitalizes "prime minister" in every instance, David Cannadine and Stuart Ball do not. Surtsicna (talk) 10:49, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

• Neutral - Just hoping we have this settled once & for all, so I can go forward with implementing the decision, throughout the bio articles. GoodDay (talk) 01:07, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, should be de-capitalized, for consistency and to avoid disputes in the future. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:18, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• It depends — I think SmokeyJoe's evaluation is closest to my own. I also concur with the point that the current guideline is not as clear as it could be, so whatever the final decision is, I hope it's communicated more effectively. XOR'easter (talk) 01:29, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• No, I am not convinced of the logic by which "the United States" amounts to a proper noun but "the President of the United States" does not. What if it were "the Grand Poobah of the United States" that should be "the grand poobah of the United States"? "the Unmitigated Holy Divine High-man of the United States" vs "the unmitigated holy divine high-man of the United States"? If it is in Wikipedia's voice, it is not a proper noun, if it is in the voice of the title-giver, it is a proper noun, right? —DIYeditor (talk) 01:53, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

  Your comment does not make sense. "President of the United States" is not a noun at all, let alone a proper noun. Surtsicna (talk) 02:00, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

  My whole comment does not make sense because you object to "amounts to"? What about the rest of it? Anyway, saying the "President of the United States" is not a proper noun seems to me about like saying the Apache HTTP Server is not a proper noun. Or the United States of America. Let's not quibble over the meaning of "proper noun" in English, let's talk about cases like "Supreme Leader" or whatever that I don't think we can say in Wiki's voice as "supreme leader". —DIYeditor (talk) 02:20, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

  DIY’s post could be corrected by substituting proper name for proper noun. A common unimportant mistake. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:10, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

• It depends I mostly agree with what SmokeyJoe said. I would suspect that capitalization is not appropriate in a majority of cases, but not all jobs are created equal and we do not need a one-size-fits-all answer to the capitalization question. Lepricavark (talk) 03:13, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. I completely agree with Number 57. There is no reason for this to be in the MOS at all. We need to be flexible and accept the norms that are specific to the preferences of each nation or dialect. This can all be determined through local consensus in each article, but we shouldn't invent an arbitrary and dubious common standard to impose on every article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ErinRC (talk • contribs) 03:17, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• No. An attempted extension of already egregious instruction creep. I would also fully support a revisiting of MOS:JOBTITLES, which (as so often with MOS) has ceased to be reflective of actual general usage. Frickeg (talk) 05:49, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• No. Our normal MOS rules should apply. We don't need special creepy first-time decapitalization rules. —David Eppstein (talk) 08:25, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• No common usage is capitalisation, and this is yet more MOS-creep. Certainly capitalise in the case of usage as a proper name, such as "37th Premier of Victoria". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:23, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• No - common usage is to capitalise. Wikipedia shouldn't take a position that suggests something different. Bookscale (talk) 11:04, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• To clarify my !vote-proper up top (about which SmokeyJoe asked): We should not do the lead sentence differently from the article title and the rest of the article. Now that this RfC is belatedly getting attention (much of it polarized by an ANI discussion), the vagueness of its wording is turning out to be a problem. The question wasn't about whether every title should always be de-capitalized in every lead sentence; it was about whether we should fix cases where people are over-capitalizing titles in the lead sentence just because it's in the lead sentence. Yes, we should fix those instances, per MOS:EMPHCAPS and MOS:ARTCON as well as MOS:JOBTITLES. That is, when the article itself is about a unique title like "President of the United States", or a sharply delimited one like "Member of the European Parliament", we're dealing with it as a proper name in that context, and the capitalization should be consistent in the article (except where used as a common-noun phrase, e.g. "seventeen presidents of the United States were ..."). When the article is about a generic title, like "chief executive officer", it is not a proper name at all, and should not be upper-cased in the lead sentence just to emphasize it because it's in the lead sentence (we boldface the term at first occurrence instead; see MOS:FIRST). This is the same capitalization pattern you'll find in the majority of modern-day reliable sources (in style guides in giving advice about how to do this, and in other kinds of works in their running-text usage: "two senators", "Senator Schubert", "when Schubert was elected as the senior senator from Ohio", "The office of United States Senator is held by two individuals at a time per US state, a senior and a junior senator", "this list of 20th-century Republican senators of Ohio", etc. Capitalize when attached to a name or when treated as a proper-name subject (the office itself, as such), but lower-case when used in a common-noun manner (descriptive, pluralized, generic, etc.) Source usage is not universal on these matters, but consistent enough (and getting more so every year) for us to apply them consistently here, and hopefully end all this move-warring and other strife.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:54, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

discussion

That's a yes in my book... Positions aren't capitalized... only titles are. I fear you've given me a to-do list. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:14, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Eyer, I have hundreds, perhaps 2000+ more, if the rough calculation I did in my head is correct. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 22:20, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

I am going to cry. :). —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:30, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Here is a fun one Special:PrefixIndex/Secretary of. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 22:42, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

And Special:PrefixIndex/First Lad. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:49, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

MOS:JOBTITLES is pretty clear about not capitalizing titles or positions when they are "preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article)". So President of the United States currently seems OK with "The president of the United States (POTUS) is the ..."—Bagumba (talk) 08:38, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

This becomes more complicated when you consider Vice Presidents and Prime Minister. By this logic, there is no reason why Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is not titled Prime minister of the United Kingdom. Titles on en.wiki should use sentence case. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 08:53, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

See above. It's because the article Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is about the title/position as such.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:21, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

This ngram shows that MOS:JOBTITLES is against common usage in corpus. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 09:06, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Our standard is to not apply a stylization, including capitals, unless current and actually reliable sources (in English and across genres, not just in specialist literature) apply that stylization to that specific case with near-uniformity. A simple majority isn't sufficient.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:21, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

This is has gotten to the point where you've got two or three Wikipedians attempting to make Wikipedia use an entirely interpretation of English grammar as distinct from the entire rest of the language. We've got a situation at John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) where every single source on the internet that uses that phrase ("41st Premier of Victoria") capitalises Premier, the Cambridge Australian English style guide says it should be capitalised, and we've got one editor insisting that it must be decapitalised because WP:JOBTITLES says so. These changes are ungrammatical and they're not supported by reliable sources either in practical usage (in any sense) or in authoritative style guide usage and they've slipped in because a very small number of editors (I count three on this talk page) have changed a guideline on their own whim with outcomes that are increasingly ludicrous. What Wikipedia says is defined by definition by what is written in reliable sources and not the passionate if completely unique interpretation of English grammar of Wikipedia users Eyer and Coffeeandcrumbs. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:14, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

I've been frustrated with this topic, for a long time. GoodDay (talk) 14:51, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps it might be time for an RfC to whack WP:JOBTITLES on the head once and for all if this keeps up: the take of this handful of users is so grammatically unusual that I highly doubt it'd survive full-blown scrutiny extending beyond the usual suspects on this page. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:51, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

It already has, in multiple RfCs (and now this one, which is going WP:SNOW, and a proposed additional one below, the outcome of which is just as predictable). Your comment above is the kind of WP:BATTLEGROUND "campaign tirelessly against guidelines I hate until I get what I want" attitude I keep waving you away from. You don't seem to be clear on what grammatical means. What you're talking about is stylistic convention, not grammar. A subjective claim that something grammar-unrelated is "ungrammatical" is a very reliable indicator of that we are dealing with a linguistic prescriptivism PoV, which is the last thing WP needs, and is the last kind of viewpoint that is ever going to get satisfaction here, but the most likely to be long-term problematic and a drain on others' editorial time, fomenting WP:DRAMA over trivial matters. As I said in a related thread below, you've had many opportunities to prove that current reliable sources almost always capitalize titles like this when not directly attached to names, yet when we all look at the evidence, we find not only is it not true, there's an increase over time in use of lower case (especially in about the last 40 years, accelerating in the last 20). Every single time this debate re-re-re-surfaces, we get the same results (which mostly happens in WP:RM discussions, not on this talk page). At some point, we need to stop rehashing the perennial; it's tiresome and unproductive. Pretty much the most that can be said in favor of capitals is that some titles, like President of the United States, show in the sources a bit more capitalization than some other titles, but it's nothing like a consistent approach. Look, I understand where this urge comes from; I'm old enough that in my schoolboy days I, too, was taught to capitalize these things. Language changes, and we have to change with it. Well, WP does; no one can tell you how to write your own letters (do those still exist? :-) and e-mails and webpages.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:16, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

It's telling that three people !voting is what passes for WP:SNOW around here on discussions that impact hundreds if not thousands of articles. @SmokeyJoe, Coolcaesar, GoodDay, and Gnangarra: - as people who've participated in this talk page discussion but not !voted, you may want to do so before three people wind up having all these articles changed. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:26, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

When an RfC runs for over a month and it's unanimous, that's a SNOW result. It may be a small snowball, but it still is one. Coming along a month late and directly canvassing someone to go the other direction is transparent and silly.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:24, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

As a gnome, I've got to know. Do we capitalise or de-capitalise. Give me sign, oh Wiki community. GoodDay (talk) 02:29, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Decapitalize, since the guideline has not changed. Or wait and see if the handful of people upset about this actually do bother with a fourth RfC; maybe consensus will magically change overnight.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:15, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

I think I misread something somewhere. @SMcCandlish: You !voted above that it would be The President of the United States is the ..., but the proposal is Should the first mention of a position in the first sentence of the article about the position be de-capitalized (underlined for emphasis). Is your "yes" really a "depends" e.g. The chief executive officer is ...?—Bagumba (talk) 17:13, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

As a matter of process, considering this RfC proposes specific changes to specific articles, it would generally be Wikipedia practice to notify users on those particular talk pages that it is proposed to change them. It is very telling that this hasn't been done (as it would inevitably drag in many times more responses to the RfC) and that the same four people are then inclined to claim that their views are a WP:SNOW consensus. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:31, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

BTW your RFC isn't tagged. GoodDay (talk) 02:32, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Who is that targeted at? I don't have an RfC? The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Wait the Rfc expired over a month ago, sorry. GoodDay (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

The Rfc-tag expired over a month ago. This Rfc opened by @Coffeeandcrumbs:, should've been closed & reviewed, back then. GoodDay (talk) 17:30, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

It is just now getting going. The holiday season was slow. I have restarted the RfC. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:35, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

It started early in November though, so at best very early in the holiday season. So probably a factor, but I think also a combination of the ANI effect and the realisation that this wasn't just obscure change in some obscure guideline that few read and wouldn't make any difference but instead something which could affect many articles. Nil Einne (talk) 07:17, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

A terrifying thought: what if the first sentence also refers to Star Trek [I/i]nto Darkness?? XOR'easter (talk) 01:24, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

MOS:JOBTITLES for "U.S. Secretary of Defense Penelope Penwinkle" and "U.S. Representative Felicia Filbert"

I have encountered an editor who seems to think these should be "U.S. secretary of defense Penelope Penwinkle" and "U.S. representative Felicia Filbert", based on the example of "Mao met with US president Richard Nixon in 1972." In my opinion, the reason "president" is lowercase in that phrase is because the proper form of the title is "President of the U.S." rather than "U.S. President". So I believe "U.S. Secretary of Defense Penelope Penwinkle" and "U.S. Representative Felicia Filbert" are correct. There does not seem to be an example in MOS:JOBTITLES that directly addresses this question. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:24, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

That should be US President Richard Nixon. Lowercase, if it were Richard Nixon, US president. GoodDay (talk) 21:26, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

@GoodDay: that's expressly counter to MOS:JOBTITLES which lists the example "Mao met with US president Richard Nixon in 1972", with "president" modified by "US". —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 21:31, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Eyer on that one. The proper alternative would be "Mao met with President of the United States Richard Nixon in 1972." —BarrelProof (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

@BarrelProof: we've already discussed my thoughts on this: "U.S." modifies "president", "secretary", "senator", and "representative". I'll wait for other editors to weigh in on your question. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 21:31, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I disagree, as you know; the titles here are "U.S. Secretary of Defense" and "U.S. Representative". The "U.S." is part of the title. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I am curious... Would the titles be "U.K. Member of Parliament" and "E.U. Member of Parliament"? Or would "U.K." and "E.U." describe the type of "member of parliament"? (Trying to extrapolate beyond just U.S. settings.) —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:28, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

A better use of our time might be to review the number of articles that link to Members of Parliament using an uppercase "M", but here we are. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:47, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Good point. No reason for plurals to be capitalized in that way. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:51, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I think the more proper form in the E.U. case would be "Member of the European Parliament Elwood Ellison". For the UK case, I'm not sure. Perhaps "Member of the Parliament of the United Kingdom Priscilla Premington". —BarrelProof (talk) 22:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I would have thought that the normal way to refer to such people in the UK would be Elwood Ellison MEP and Priscilla Premington MP, with links from MEP and MP to the relevant articles. MP being treated the same in Australia, not sure about Canada. MEP and MP don't seem to have an equivalent in the US, but aren't they generally referred to as Representative James Bloggs and Senator Jimmy Diamond? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

That might be more a matter of whether the article is written in American English or UK English rather than whether it is referring to a person with a U.S. jobtitle or a non-U.S. jobtitle. Sometimes an article written in AmE may refer to someone who holds a non-U.S. title. Also, it is not uncommon to use "U.S. Representative" rather than just "Representative", e.g., in order to identify a member of the federal U.S. House of Representatives as contrasted with a member of the House of Representatives of a U.S. state. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Note that American officials are often referred to as Representative Smith or Secretary Jones (or indeed President Trump) as though they are ranks. The UK does not do this. We do not say Prime Minister Johnson (although the American media often does) or Member of Parliament Smith or Minister Jones or Secretary of State Bloggs. We would simply say Mr Johnson or Ms Smith or Dr Jones or Mrs Bloggs, depending on what their usual honorific was just like anyone else. So the cases are slightly different. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:08, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

To my mind, "US representative John Smith" would indicate that Smith is acting in some capacity to represent the US, perhaps on an international committee. "US Representative John Smith" indicates much more specifically that Smith is a member of the US Congress. So the capitalization carries important semantic information; it is not just an arbitrary style thing that we can change without changing the meaning. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:43, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, this is one reason why (per MOS:JOBTITLES, as in most other English-language style guides) such a title is capitalized when attached to a name.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:22, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

“The late”

Should we remove uses of “the late” in articles? It seems to not be so neutral; one probably wouldn’t say “the late Stalin” or something—it implies respect.

Should uses of “the late” be removed for neutrality? DemonDays64 | Tell me if I'm doing something wrong :P 03:29, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

• I could see an argument that using “the late” is poor word choice (more appropriate in journalism than in encyclopedic writing), but I don’t see it as being non-neutral. Blueboar (talk) 04:40, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
• @DemonDays64: Could you show examples of where it's been used? I too am not sure that it shows respect: isn't it just a slightly euphemistic term for "deceased" or "dead"? PamD 06:15, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
• @PamD: here is one: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Post-truth_politics&diff=prev&oldid=926401419 is one—the man has been dead for 23 years, so I removed it. The problem is that there's not at all an objective threshold where we can say "oh this dude isn't late"—we just don't really have any ability to distinguish between a person who died in the last few years, in the last twenty years, and the 1600s. I think that the bigger problem than neutrality is that there's not a good way to determine if it is appropriate. DemonDays64 | Tell me if I'm doing something wrong :P 15:41, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't add anything, in that example. If it's important to mention that someone was dead at the time under discussion, then (died 2012) or (1950-2012) after their name would be usually be better. I'm neutral between "late" and "deceased" in something like "She explained that the knife had belonged to her late husband", to invent an example. I don't think respect comes into it: it's just unnecessary verbiage unless we need to know that the person is dead. PamD 14:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• Remove, if a death year exists it will be at the front of the biographic article, and in other cases 'the late' isn't encyclopedic. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:01, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
• Remove. I concur with Randy Kryn.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:13, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
• "The late" is polite introduction for someone we recently new to be alive, and some in the audience may not be aware of their recent death. On Wikipedia, "recent" is measured in hours, content is written as if to be timeless. Remove. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:39, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
• Remove (but not for neutrality) almost always. I can imagine situations where the phrase is useful: "He had inquired about the spirit of Dr H, but the ward sister, believing him to be referring to the late prof. H , replied 'Whether it is going up or down, sir I really couldn't say!'" - but even then there might be better phraseology. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:31, 8 January 2020 (UTC).
  

Including dead names

Trans people's dead names should not be referenced or included at all, unless the trans person in question has explicitly said it is okay. Imwahte (talk) 00:49, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

That is basically our style, expect in the case where the person was also notable under their "dead name" (eg the case of Caitlyn Jenner as Bruce Jenner) and the sourcing is clearly there to support it. --Masem (t) 01:13, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

@Masem: That is still somewhat ambiguous in the MOS:DEADNAME. Some Wikipedians are insisting on digging up Trans people's dead names in the Personal Life section of their articles because the guideline only refers to the lead sentences of an article. I tried for instance removing Peppermint's deadname from her article and that quickly got reverted by a VERY active wikipedian citing this technicality. Also refer to the talk page of Kim Petras where a similar argument ensued. I think removing the "in the lead section" bit from the guideline is therefore a necessary development, since I believe wikipedia should be held to the same journalistic standard of contemporary publications who have collectively agreed that digging up trans people's dead names when they were never known under that name serves no value besides that of undermining their identity, and is therefore a form of disparagement not only against the individual, but against the entire LGBT community. cave (talk) 13:30, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I did review past discussions here, and there was an RFC to try to change the wording which did not successfully conclude anything, so I can't just strip "from the lede" here without more consensus. I will point out the draft MOS WP:GENDERID does have the specific advice to not include deadnames even if they can be sourced (as in the case of Peppermint), but that's only a draft. So unfortunately we can't offer stronger advice, but I would stress in arguments that WP editors are more aware of the troubles of deadnaming against the balance of verifyability. --Masem (t) 14:48, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I would strongly support a change to strip "from the lead", if it is (re)proposed. (Please feel free to ping me, as I might not notice otherwise.) It is clearly implied by the existing wording that we do not regard deadnames as having encyclopaedic value except when the subject was notable under the previous name. The ambiguity allows people, who are often acting in bad faith, to Wikilawyer the matter in a disruptive way as they attempt to introduce confidential private information into our articles with the intent to harass, humiliate or otherwise distress the subjects. It is not hard to find the alleged deadnames of trans people online. There are people who delight in doxxing people and publishing the results. Their screeds are not WP:RS, and they don't even get the names right all the time. As such, I feel that respect for Wikipedia's values of notability and verifiability push us in the same direction as more general values of basic decency and lawfulness to eschew information of no encyclopaedic value which serves only to harass and annoy people. --DanielRigal (talk) 14:20, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

We should not include anything based on non-WP:RS. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:35, 8 January 2020 (UTC).

I agree that the policy should be to not include deadnames in the article at all (not just omitting them from the lede) unless the subject clearly gained notability under that name. For the record I'm trans myself and have written and given talks on this and related subjects; see my user profile. Funcrunch (talk) 18:31, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Again,this is not the policy for other people born under names that they were never notable under...equality of inclusion is called for rather than bias toward a subject's preferences.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 20:21, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Also keep in mind, that applies to living persons (WP:BLP). For long-deceased people, if the dead name is known, there's no restrictions on it (ala this edit [1]) --Masem (t) 01:15, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

I COULDN'T POSSIBLY DISAGREE MORE.I am deeply offended by attempts to suppress the original names of transgender persons from biographical articles...birth names should always be included in all biographical articles without exception as long as they can be verified.There is no special right to erase one's history attached to any class of person,be they actors,politicians (Robert C. Byrd was born Cornelius Calvin Sale,his article says so),authors (Anne Perry committed murder as a child when she was Juliet Hulme and her article says so)...you are not giving a proper or complete picture of anyone's life if you do not make sure to include the name the person was born with.To fetishize the preference of a particular population is a vicious attack on NPOV.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 07:58, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

You need to understand two things. Firstly, that we are not trying to offend you. Secondly, that whether or not we offend you is simply not a consideration for us. We are writing an encyclopaedia here and we can not allow you, or anybody else, to disrupt it or repurpose it as a vector to harass the people who are the subjects of our articles. You are, and you remain, on final warning for this very behaviour. You are venue shopping here after previously getting short shrift on Talk:Veronica Ivy and on your own Talk page (over a period of years). I have advised you to drop the stick and move on to other areas where you can contribute more constructively. I am disappointed that you have not done so. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:46, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. As to the basic issue, perhaps we should treat this as we do full dates of birth at WP:BLPPRIVACY except that the reason isn't identity theft but simply privacy. In fact maybe this discussion should move here. My position is that unless we are sure that the link has been made in multiple reliable sources so that we know it's well known, we shouldn't link the names. Oddly enough I've just run into this issue where an editor was using material written by the subject under their deadname as sources for making the link. Doug Weller talk 17:17, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

My position is that you are fundamentally mischaracterizing the issue in order to allege an utterly unique form of "privacy" that for any other person would be regarded as collusion in hiding essential information.I have already cited counterexamples where people's birth names under which they attained no notability whatsoever have been duly included in their articles for good reason,and under which they incurred infamy they may want to avoid have been included in their article for good reason.But somehow,the subset of editors particularly concerned with the "trans" see the "trans" as entitled to a special special pass from having their articles be properly informative.We're not giving out people's phone numbers or street addresses...just their original names.Which is not "harrassment",even if they find it inconvenient (and it is blatant bias to prioritize their personal preferences over their articles telling their full stories.Bias most unbecoming people who want to "write an encyclopaedia").It is the advocates of suppression who need to "drop the stick",not go on a rampage to forbid any right to dissent from their interpretations in any venue.(I was in a discussion with Daniel on an article's talk page...this page seemed the best place to take the issue of moving policy in the direction of increasing disclosure.If this is not the best venue for engaging discussion on the need to move policy in the direction of increasing disclosure,could you please point me there?...and no,denying the right to advocate against your position is not satisfactory).--12.144.5.2 (talk) 17:37, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

IP, you should understand that the broad policy consensus at WP is in favor of MOS:GENDERID, which was developed through repeated RfCs with wide participation. So the "venue" that would be necessary for your idiosyncratic preferences and perceptions of ENC to become policy, would be one or more widely-participated RfCs. However, there is no reasonable likelihood that a new RfC would generate the result you are hoping for, given the prevailing direction of change for the last decade or more within the WP editing community. Newimpartial (talk) 17:58, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I can't tell you how discrediting such a direction of change is.A biographical article is worthless if it conceals things because the subject wants them concealed...you might as well be writing an official biography of Phillip Musica as blameless F. Donald Coster and then pointing to his suicide when exposed as justification.A person's birth name is just about the very first thing a biography ought to include.Readers are entitled to expect warts-and-all portraits and writers and editors should do their best to provide them.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 20:21, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

The thing is, the WP consensus currently considers deadnaming to be simply in a different category from the inclusion of other birth names, and the reasons for this are discernable in repeated RfCs. You may disagree about this case being different, but there is a very clear body of policy and practice that disagrees with your preference, expressed over a decade and more. Newimpartial (talk) 00:04, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I doubt very much that I would buy into this exceptionalism but can you link me to any of these discussions?--12.144.5.2 (talk) 00:23, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Here is a fairly typical discussion of GENDERID, neither the first not the last. Newimpartial (talk) 00:59, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

@Masem: - any chance you could link to the last RfC? If it's from a while back then it might be worth revisiting that 'on the lede' wording. Thanks, The Land (talk) 18:06, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Re 'you are fundamentally mischaracterizing the issue in order to allege an utterly unique form of "privacy" that for any other person would be regarded as collusion in hiding essential information': That really is the crux of the issue. And it has been the entire time. In more encyclopedia-pertinent terms, we are not here to either suppress basic and commonly-sought information that is encyclopedically relevant and is public knowledge (i.e., verifiable in reliable sources), nor are we here to rewrite history. Our super-massive RfC on this at VPPOL in 2015 came to the same conclusion, and the detailed close there [2] even quotes the GLAAD guidelines on this as relevant to the prevailing reasoning in that RfC: "Unless a former name is newsworthy or pertinent, use the name and pronouns preferred ...". So, a handful of extremist trans-issues activists on WP are promoting a new privacy right for a small sliver of GLBT+ people (in turn only about 10% of the population in total) that even the leading advocacy organization for GLBT+ people doesn't advocate. Our current practice is entirely sufficient and proper; it is: not using old names that pre-date the person's notability, i.e. which are not encyclopedically relevant; not using purported old names at all if they cannot be reliably sourced; and writing in the present-tense using the present name and gender, but not faking history by applying the old name to old facts that pre-date the use of that name. We're already consistent with GLAAD's advice. While it could itself have been regarded at one time as just an advocacy position, the GLAAD approach has been adopted by AP Stylebook, and various other style guides with longer publication cycles; WP has thus shifted to this usage itself, because it's become a norm of how to write about trans people in professional-grade English. This entire discussion is a combination of rehash and tendentiousness (and the same responses thereto as last time, and the time before that, and the time before that, and ...).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:15, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

GLAAD of course is an advocacy group dedicated to seeing that only its side of arguments is allowed respect.So an encyclopaedia seeking NPOV should depart from their recommendations on the side of less concessions to the transgendered,not more.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 01:19, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Do you regard the AP style guide as also an advocacy group, IP? It is encumbent on an Encyclopaedia to recognize when a formerly activist stance has become mainstream and effectively NPOV. Newimpartial (talk) 17:30, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

When a change in a style guide is in specific response to the demands of an advocacy group I regard that as a departure from NPOV.(Is your username an allusion to the attitude you are advocating?)--12.144.5.2 (talk) 00:56, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Also, I think the essential in that quote is pulling a lot of weight. We do allow a deadname (even in the lead) in situations where it is clearly essential, as the Chelsea Manning exception shows. But you have to actually have the sources to demonstrate that they were previously notable under that name - if the name is comparatively unknown, it seems hard to explain how it could be 'essential information'. At that point our WP:BLP requirements that biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy and that the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment take precedence. --Aquillion (talk) 20:28, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

How can an encyclopedia be encyclopedic and NPOV if it doesn't include the name that a person was born with? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.70.86.190 (talk) 09:18, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

There is nothing requiring us to include every detail about a person. We are actually supposed to summarize what reliable sources say. So if a transgender person's original name is not commonly found in sources, we are not bound to include it. --Masem (t) 17:34, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

• An encyclopedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. We include the notable parts of people's biographies; as WP:BLP says, we still have to respect their privacy otherwise. In a case like Chelsea Manning, who was initially famous under her original name, we include the name in the lead because it's relevant information (and because the fact that it's already widely-known means there's little privacy risk.) But in the case of someone who transitioned before they were famous and whose birth name is therefore not important or widely-known, there isn't really any compelling reason to include it, and more potential harm to their privacy, so we should generally omit it. --Aquillion (talk) 20:33, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't think "privacy" can legitimately extend to deliberately suppressing mention of a verifiable birth name.Actors and politicians who were never famous under their birth names have their birth names given in their articles.That Anne Perry murdered someone while she was Juliet Hulme,and kept that secret for decades,is duly mentioned in her article.Privacy concerns would apply to giving out things like someone's personal phone number,not a name that they are not now found under but wore (presumably blamelessly) for decades.There's no legitimate ground for a biographical article to omit it.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 00:56, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

It is not WP's place to dig to search for private info buried in limited sourcing such as the birth name of a trans individual. That's the essence of BLP, to respect the privacy of distributable individuals. --Masem (t) 01:03, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Changing one's name due to being trans and/or having gender dysphoria is not in any way equivalent to changing one's name to evade the law. When I changed my name and legal sex in 2014, I had to stand before a judge in open court and publish an announcement in the newspaper to assert that I was not changing my name for fraudulent purposes. Since that time, a number of U.S. states have eliminated the courtroom declaration and publication requirements for trans individuals, recognizing that such actions violate our privacy and can cause undue distress. As far as cisgender celebrities and politicians who have changed their names, their birth-assigned names are typically covered extensively in reliable sources, unlike trans people who did not gain notability before their transitions. And cisgender people do not suffer from gender dysphoria when they read or hear their birth-assigned names. Bottom line: Eliminating deadnames from bios of trans people who were not notable under these names is in line with WP:BLP policy, which necessitates avoiding unnecessary harm to living people. Funcrunch (talk) 02:02, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Allowing people to hide their former names rubs me the wrong way to an enormous degree.The claim that it makes the subject uncomfortable is open to endless abuse to conceal all sorts of things.Again,poor Phillip Musica shot himself after it was revealed he hadn't always been F. Donald Coster...would it have been respect for his feelings to keep that under wraps?If you want to learn about Gerald Ford,you learn that he was born Leslie Lynch King.All should be treated equally...I don't want to have to go to Kiwifarms in order to find out someone's birth name.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 02:36, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Kiwifarms is a forum whose members take delight in deadnaming, mocking and misgendering trans people, including myself. That you are suggesting that you use them as an alternative to deadnaming trans people on Wikipedia is hardly a good argument for your case. Funcrunch (talk) 03:12, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

If Wikipedia refuses to provide information about biographical subjects as absolutely essential as the person's birth name,one is forced to use what sources are available.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 06:17, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

We go by what sources give us. Even if a transgender person takes offense we include their dead name, if the bulk of RS report the deadname , we aren't going to hide that. E.g. The example of Phillip Musica, the birth name is essential to the topic once the connection was well reported. But when there is minimal sourcing on the dead name of rely on primary sources, we will take privacy over inclusion. --Masem (t) 03:53, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Anne Perry committed her crime under her original name, went to court under her original name, and most importantly (because of these things) was famous under her original name. That's comparable to the Chelsea Manning example I listed above - even if she had transitioned we would still list her birth name, because she was notable under that name, and that introduces a compelling reason we ought to include it even if she wouldn't want it there. (And, conversely, the fact that her name is already plastered everywhere means that there's little risk of harm from us mentioning it in passing.) For situations where we lack that sort of compelling reason to include it, such as the actors and politicians you referenced, the question is whether listing their name will harm them (per WP:BLP's requirement that the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment) and, in the balance, what purpose is served by including their original name. Trans people who were never famous under their original name can generally be presumed to want to discard it, and we have no compelling editorial reason to include it, so it is omitted; whereas actors who take stage names generally do so for professional reasons that are not harmed by mentioning it in the article even if it is relatively minor trivia. --Aquillion (talk) 05:08, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Again,Gerald R. Ford and Robert C. Byrd did nothing of note under their birth names but that's not used as an excuse for deleting those names from their articles and even the talk pages of those articles.They could be assumed to be as inclined to "discard" their birth names as the "trans" are,but that's not seen as reason to delete.The "harm" allegedly done by disclosure is nothing more than hurt feelings if it doesn't involve exposure of misdeeds under the original name (as noted in the article about her murder,Perry was not publicly identified with Juliet Hulme until 1994,long after she'd been publishing as an author).I would guess someone in a WITSEC situation might actually be imperiled by identification in a bio but I don't think any of them have ever become notable under their later identities.This boils down to a very exceptional privileging of the transgendered that I just don't think is appropriate.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 06:17, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

No special case is being made. A case like Ford is where by his importance, his original name is well documented through numerous RSes. On the other hand I do know we have a few articles on people that have legally changed their name since because they wanted a new identity, and which only things like court records document that. We are not going to dig up Blp's past through poor sourcing just to be "complete". --Masem (t)

WP:AN/I is that way. Conduct issues. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 20:29, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
By default,an impartial biographer's responsibility includes exposing those engaged in the intrinsically suspicious practice of "wanting a new identity".Not complicity,which is complete bias.Looking for good sources is responsible writing,avoiding whatever information can be found is not.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 14:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC) First, there is nothing “intrinsically suspicious” about changing one’s name... second, I disagree that it is the responsibility of a biographer to “expose” anything. “Exposure” is what investigative journalists do. Wikipedia is not the right venue for investigative journalism. Blueboar (talk) 15:18, 29 December 2019 (UTC) "Changing one's name" is one thing,"seeking a new identity" something else entirely.A newly married Mrs. Smith is not trying to pretend she was never Miss Jones,or keep that from being discovered.If shes does,that IS suspicious.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2019 (UTC) I agree with Blueboar, but I'd also like to note that this sort of "exposure" is not even legitimate investigative journalism when published elsewhere. We see a fair number of (mostly far-right) thugs trying to recast themselves as "journalists" when what they are really engaged in is doxing, intimidation and harassment. We can't even use such self-styled "journalism" as reference material when it is externally published. I'd also like to ask our anonymous friend to examine their motives here. They seem strongly compelled to know not just who is trans, but also what each trans person's deadname is. That seems as weird and irrelevant as wanting to know people's blood types (which is a mostly, but not entirely, harmless craze in Japan). They have mentioned looking up the alleged deadnames of trans people on Kiwi Farms. That does not seem at all healthy. --DanielRigal (talk) 15:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC) I see the trans/deadname issue as no different than any other persons who have changed their names...I think that a biographical article ought as a rule to include all names the subject has ever used.You are the one with the compulsion of censor disused names if the person happens to be trans.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2019 (UTC) Looking at IP's edit history, it seems pretty cut and dry to me that these arguments are not being made in good faith. This is not a person simply concerned about "having the full picture" of a trans person, but rather, this is a person who doesn't believe trans women are women, who insisted on using incorrect pronouns to refer to trans women, who believes the fact that they disagree with their assigned at birth gender and names is "inherently suspicious", and who also by their own words also "vehemently oppose same-sex marriage". This person therefore is simply "hiding their power level" here and is just aiming to be disruptive on LGBT related articles, not seeking a NPOV but doggedly trying to impose a very clearly bigoted one that is at odds with modern day society, scientific consensus and with Wikipedia's policies. I believe discretionary measures should be taken against this continued behavior. cave (talk) 15:31, 29 December 2019 (UTC) My disagreements with Wikipedia policies go far beyond this one.Differences on science and pronouns are just a small part of it.Silencing dissenting voices may seem fine and dandy to you but I think it's bad policy.Just like demanding specific source citations for information available in numerous places (e.g. box office data) when the selection of any one source is automatically bias...or demanding a source for one defined arithmetical quantity being larger than another (I have really seen that here).I don't think anything but original research can give an article independent value,yet Wikipedia cultivates a prejudice against it.I've been in arguments on here since my mentions of the absolutely unique nature of other nations' claiming a right to tell Israel what its capital is when they never do that to any other country were deleted from the article on Jerusalem in 2003."Bigoted" to one person is not so to another.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2019 (UTC) Hmmm... With all due respect, if you disagree with our core policies and basic philosophy to that extent, you probably should not be contributing to Wikipedia. You will be constantly frustrated. The things you want changed are simply not going to BE changed. Blueboar (talk) 17:28, 29 December 2019 (UTC) I share your concerns but, given that our anonymous friend seems able to contribute constructively on some other topics, I would be perfectly happy if they could just step away from this subject and just concentrate on those topics where they are able to contribute constructively. I have suggested they they do that more than once already. Failing that, I feel that maybe a formal topic ban might be necessary. (Oh, and please, for the love of all and any deities as may exist, I advise them to stay off bloody Kiwi Farms! There is nothing good to be had there.) --DanielRigal (talk) 18:20, 29 December 2019 (UTC) Remember,I'm not asking Wikipedia to embrace my views of "LGBT" issues,just to back off unconditional acceptance of the preferences/attitudes of the "LGBT" activists (can you point to articles where this is not the case,and where you also prefer that it stay not the case?)--12.144.5.2 (talk) 18:28, 29 December 2019 (UTC) We are not discussing "preferences/attitudes" here and, as a response to the largest olive branch I could offer you under these circumstances, your response is extremely disappointing. Putting quote marks around LGBT looks a lot like a deliberate act of provocation. Are you just playing games to see what you can get away with? Whether or not you are acting in good faith, I now think that the massive WP:IDHT issue here justifies an indefinite topic ban covering all gender and sexuality related topics including all biographies of LGBTQIA people, living or dead. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC) Quotation marks seem to me the best way to convey that I am describing terminology that others use but that I consider it important not to use.Each side sees the other's preferences as "provocation",I suppose.Policies protecting "LGBTQIA" articles from edits reducing bias toward blind indulgence of a particular viewpoint can never stop being bad policies.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 19:08, 29 December 2019 (UTC) I am in full support of such a topic ban. WP:IDHT is appropriate here. cave (talk) 19:19, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Birth names for transgender people shouldn't be used in the lead or the title of the article, but should be mentioned as part of their biography. It's a very significant part of their biography and we shouldn't presume that transgender people are harmed by mentioning previous names in their proper context. We absolutely should be generally referring to transgender people by their present names, and affirming that the subject of the article concerns their present identity rather than past identities. Of course, we should only be mentioning previous names at all if reliable sources mention them as well. We certainly should not be wasting our time arguing with those who seek to push an agenda here that is sceptical or antagonistic of transgender people or transgender rights. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:38, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

This assumption (that transgender people are harmed by mentioning previous names) is not unfounded. Here is an article by the Huffington Post that explains this very concept in a nuanced manner. Wikipedia's policy in this regard is suposed to err on the side of non-disparagement and to consider the safety of the subjects of WP:BLP above all else, and I believe the best way to ensure that is to not include deadnames anywhere in BLP articles unless it is indeed deemed "essential information" because the subject obtained notoriety under that name. cave (talk) 22:00, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Harm is caused when their previous names are used to humiliate, defame or otherwise delegitimise them. Our articles legitimise the subject's present identity, even if that is not the intention. If the information is already there in reliable sources, there's no adverse impact on the subject by Wikipedia mentioning their previous names in their proper context. If they aren't notable people, then the articles shouldn't exist at all, but a person's birth name is biographical information that should exist in any biography. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:08, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing "nuanced" about the highly provocative claim that the use of words "is violence".A member of the class of persons under discussion (my identification of which in the "hatted" section recently got "redacted" with the claim that it was "harrassment") writing with personal perspective as such in a publication dependably partial to the position of activists is not an impartial evaluator of the claims of harm,but a maker of those claims.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 23:27, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

If your edits in this area are getting redacted, that might be a hint to WP:DROPTHESTICK, find another topic to edit, and avoid getting blocked. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:35, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't agree that our Our current practice is entirely sufficient and proper.

Once I came across an article about a trans author that advertised her deadname in bold letters in the lead, even though the author was never notable under that name. Sources almost never mentioned the name, her published work didn't use it, etc, and the author had also said she wanted the deadname removed from the article. So what was the name doing there? Looking at the article history, I saw that attempts to remove her deadname had been blocked because she had "published work" under the name. I looked into that, and found out this "published work" was self-published, and long out of print. I successfully got her deadname removed from the article, but it was up there for years, against the author's wishes, in violation of both her privacy and her human dignity.

I'm concerned about the unintentional harm this kind of error can cause, especially to figures who are less well known. I think, therefore, our guidelines about transgender people ought to emphasize that it is better to err on the side of not including deadnames. Instead, though, earlier this year MOS:GENDERID was pushed somewhat in the other direction: a note was added emphasizing that sometimes deadnames need to be mentioned. In retrospect I don't understand what problem this addition was supposed to solve: I've never come across an article about a trans person with a well-known deadname where the deadname wasn't mentioned. Meanwhile, I have seen the reverse: cases, like the above, where a relatively obscure deadname was included for dubious reasons.

So I propose the following addition to MOS:GENDERID: WP:BLP calls for us to consider the privacy and human dignity of every living person, and former and legal names should generally not be mentioned in articles unless they are widely published. WanderingWanda (talk) 07:26, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

@WanderingWanda: I have been privately workshopping a proposal for a full fledged separate guideline regarding this matter btw. Would you mind taking a look at it? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 07:45, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

"I came across an article about a trans author that advertised her deadname in bold letters in the lead, even though the author was never notable under that name" doesn't means that our current practice (i.e., our current guideline) is not sufficient and proper. It means someone didn't follow it. Your argument amounts to "our laws against burglary are a failure, because someone broke into my house."  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:47, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• On dead people's earlier-life names, defer to what the sources do. In case of disagreement, look first to the highest quality sources. Obituaries are important sources. If not mentioned in the lede, other names present in reliable sources should probably be mention somewhere far below, probably in a "personal life" section. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:43, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

  SmokeyJoe, not sure if there is some confusion or if it is on my part, a "deadname" in this sense is a trans person's former/birth name and not related to them being dead. Are you saying that once a person with a former name dies, there is a lower bar for including the former name? So the difference might be "widely published" vs. "published in reliable secondary sources" or something? —DIYeditor (talk) 09:03, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

  User:DIYeditor, thanks. I do seem to have mentally strayed while answering this. I think I proceeded to think that we were talking specifically about a BLP's deadname that has to date not been included in the article due to a WP:BLPPRIVACY issue. It is not OK to add information sleuthed even from public sources, like court records. I then proceeded to assume that the issue arises when the subject ceases to be living. Is it OK to reveal a hidden deadname of an historical figure? Yes, subject to whether the source is reliable. For a living subject, or a recently deceased with living family, see BLPPRIVACY. Yes, as time passes, the BLPPRIVACY bar lowers. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:43, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

  We very rarely use court records because that (generally) violates WP:PRIMARY. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:42, 8 January 2020 (UTC).
  

Refs

References

Applying MOS

I appreciate that @Mechanical Keyboarder: wants to decapitalize office titles in the bio intros, per MOS. However, I wish he'd do it via articles series. Instead he's only making such changes to the 'incumbent' officials & that's merely throwing off the series of articles. If you're going to make a change to (for examples) Boris Johnson? then make those changes to the articles of his predecessors. GoodDay (talk) 21:34, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Articles are improved one at a time. Having 1 correct article and 19 incorrect articles is better than having 20 incorrect articles. Surtsicna (talk) 22:54, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

And given that “mass-conforming” multiple articles (all at once) is something that has gotten other MOS editors in trouble... going slowly and taking it one article at a time makes a lot of sense. Blueboar (talk) 23:01, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Yep. There is absolutely no principle on WP that every article that could be made to conform to some guideline must be made to do so all once! Absurd.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:10, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

If that was the approach for 'hard cover' encylopedias? an editor would be fired. GoodDay (talk) 19:56, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

It's simply not practical here. --Izno (talk) 23:46, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

At the moment MK's application of de-capitalisation isn't being universally accepted. That's a fact. GoodDay (talk) 23:50, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

There's one thing that's annoying me for sure. Mechanical Keyboarder's refusal to engage in discussion on this topic, while at the same time steamrolling ahead on multiple articles. GoodDay (talk) 14:07, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, there's a discussion open right here. What's your objection to MOS:JOBTITLES or MK's interpretation of it? — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:10, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

His refusal to put on the breaks, when other editors have protested his changes. GoodDay (talk) 19:54, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

If his edits bring the article into compliance with the guidelines, I would think that the burden of proof is on you to show that they somehow don't apply to a particular case. Remember that WP:BRD is an essay, not a policy.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:39, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Judicial postnoms

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#RfC on abbreviation of judicial offices

Closing superseded discussion per WP:MULTI, WP:TALKFORK.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:43, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

---

I propose to add at the end of #Post-nominal letters:

In the main body of an article judicial titles, such as "Justice" or "Chief Justice", should be used similarly to political titles, such as "President". However, in discussion of a particular judgment it may be convenient to use instead the conventional post-nominal legal abbreviation, such as "J" or "CJ".

@Jack Upland and Find bruce: Errantius (talk) 20:02, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose: those legal abbreviations are only used in legal texts. This is an encyclopedia, not a legal text, though some articles on Australian legal and constitutional topics do look like bad law student's essays. I think this is covered by MOS:JARGON. There is no advantage in saying "Gaudron J" rather than "Justice Gaudron". In fact, "Gaudron J" is confusing because "J" could mean "Justice" or "Judge". There is no reason to use this abbreviation style. Looking at some leading cases:

1. Australian Communist Party v Commonwealth only uses it in the infobox.
2. Donoghue v Stevenson doesn't use it.
3. Roe v. Wade only uses it briefly.

We don't need it.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:34, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Or Gaudron last initial J (or in some styles, Gaudron first initial J). Just, no. --Izno (talk) 00:32, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: Does this need to be in the MOS? Whilst I am familiar with Australian usage, I do not have sufficient knowledge to comment on whether this is the same in other jurisdictions. In Australian usage it is almost universal for reliable sources commenting on a particular case to use this form of shorthand. It is used in WP articles discussing decisions of the High Court, such as Dietrich v The Queen & Al-Kateb v Godwin that have been rated good article or better. Yes other articles refer to them as Justice, Chief Justice etc and there is nothing wrong with that. In aricles where there are different judgments and a range of issues, such as Commonwealth v Verwayen, repeatedly refering to Justice becomes clunky. A person who whether Gaudron J has the title judge or justice is unlikely to care about the difference.
• See also: The MOS guideline: Do not use unwarranted abbreviations.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:39, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Izno, I don't know a jurisdiction where "J" for "Justice" could be before the name, so that isn't proposed. Jack Upland, I think that this usage is common throughout the legal anglosphere and I don't think I've ever seen "J" used for "Judge". Errantius (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:37, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

I did not say "jurisdiction". Please re-read what I wrote. --Izno (talk) 13:31, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

You said "in some styles". What else did that mean but the styles of some jurisdictions? Who would write "Justice Gaudron" as "J Gaudron"? Errantius (talk) 18:24, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Style as in Stronk and White, Chicago, and others, and why this document is Manual of Style / Biography. --Izno (talk) 19:50, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Firstly, this isn't in any way a postnominal, so the discussion is misplaced: it's an (extremely common) convention for how to refer to a judge in writing. We write about topics based on what the sources use, not on the opinions of some random guy on the internet. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:59, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

  Nope. We write in plain English. We absolutely do not write WP articles about the law the way a law journal article would. That's the WP:Specialized style fallacy and is the root cause of about 90% of the style-related strife on Wikipedia.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:18, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: It's a legal convention which is used by legal sources. I've never seen it used by news media. Wikipedia is not a legal source. We do not have to change styles based on topic. I don't think it's "clunky" to refer to "Justice Gaudron" rather than "Gaudron J". In fact, since we are not in a legal context, I think we can drop the "Justice" altogether in repeated mentions. In response to Errantius, I have seen "J" used for Judge in legal contexts in Australia. In the English legal context, the legal abbreviations include "B" meaning Baron of the Exchequer and "MR" meaning Master of the Rolls. These are baffling to the casual reader and totally pointless.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:42, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

  PS. Wikipedia's List of legal abbreviations states that J can mean Judge or Justice.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:07, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

• Proposal withdrawn. Thank you all for your comments. I take the point by The Drover's Wife that these are not actually postnominals. Errantius (talk) 21:18, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
• Yeah, this is already covered, in general though not in Australian legal specifics, by the MOS:ABBR guideline.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:17, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

  SMcCandlish, I continued this discussion here. It is now covered in the MOS here.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:34, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

  Noted, thanks. I'll close this as a duplicate/superseded thread.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:43, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nationality of people from UK

I've raised a question on the talk page Nationality_of_people_from_the_United_Kingdom about whether it is correct to describe the UK as an "equal union" of four nations, because I believe this is a misleading statement which would need some external source to justify it as correct. FrankP (talk) 17:47, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

This isn't a style matter, but probably a good RfC, or a WP:RSN or WP:NORN matter, depending on the nature of the dispute.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:12, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Good point, thanks. I don't think it's a dispute as such, there were a few comments in the Talk page mentioned then I made the change. Seems OK for now. FrankP (talk) 11:33, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Using "British" vs "English" to describe a person/company/work

New thread about this opened at the main MoS page.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:39, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

WP:JOBTITLES

I think we urgently need to clarify WP:JOBTITLES, because it's suddenly being applied in ways that are ungrammatical and contradict all usage in reliable sources. The capitalisation of office titles in actual, real-world, usage, depends on the context: they can be common nouns, or they can be proper nouns, and the way the guideline is written currently has a couple of editors changing proper noun usages as if they were common nouns with religious fervour. It should go without saying that if literally 100% of sources agree that a word in a particular context is a proper noun, we should also treat it as a proper noun - but we've got editors claiming that Wikipedia should essentially rewrite the rules of English grammar and decapitalise proper nouns because of WP:JOBTITLES.

The table in particular should go - it's encouraging people to change the language in the first column (which is perfectly fine as it refers to proper nouns) to the language in the second column (i.e. changing it to common nouns for the sake of changing it to common nouns, and replacing fine prose with worse prose in the process), or to just refer to proper nouns in lower-case which generally looks ridiculous and is a usage that is entirely unique to Wikipedians interpreting this table in absurd ways.

I'm trying to find where exactly this started and every discussion on this page featuring this stuff seems to feature the same five or so people with strong opinions that are never grounded in any actual sources of any kind. I'm not sure this ever had consensus in the first place. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:24, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

There's an editor steam rolling through bios of heads of state & government, decapitalising offices & positions. As a result? we've now got inconsistency among those bio articles & it's frustrating. GoodDay (talk) 14:53, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

It's a problem being created without a solid reason, english is such a wonderful language we already have WP:ENGVAR with good reason, while we speak on common language we all use it differently. That goes with the way we write it, take the recent drama over ise vs ize or the ongoing discrimination/racism/colonialism of WLM in Australia. WP:MOS has a flaw that isnt being addressed its these variants one size has never fitted all, and it may never will. Wikipedia's role is not to lead changes but to reflect what is being said in sources WP:JOBTITLES and the current focus on it is. We kill sources when they are circular yet JOBTITLE is embracing a usage that isnt even in common use, nor has that usage even been explored appropriately by linguists to ensure that its an actual change to the title styling. This source shows a drop in the use but it still exceeds by 2:1 the JOBTITLE guide and it only applies the President/president of the US, according to policies firstly its not the primary usage or even close to it, secondly engvar would only mean it only applies to US english, more specifically article about the president. It would not any other versions of english, nor to other titles, but it doesnt apply until such time as there is clear accepted linguistic support for such usage. Gnangarra 06:56, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• JOBTITLES is overreaching some MOS aficionado's wish for lowercase consistency, and does not represent community consensus. I have applied the {{Disputed tag}}. Nixon was the 37th president of the United States in particular is weak, see Foogle ngram. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:19, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't see a particular problem with it. It has them capitalized when they should be (part of the name, reference to an individual by referencing their office), when they are proper nouns, and uncapitalized otherwise. That's the correct way to use them. So, "the President of the United States", but "a president of the United States". Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:40, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

The problem is that it's so vaguely written that it's not remotely being applied that way - there is an enormous gulf between what you said (which is logical and I agree with) and the interpretation being applied by a couple of the regulars on this page that virtually all references to offices should be decapitalised. The concept of office titles as proper nouns is completely lost on these people and WP:JOBTITLES doesn't clarify things for them. This is why we had a move discussion at John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) where, despite every single source for "41st Premier of Victoria" on the internet capitalising Premier, the proposer insisted that WP:JOBTITLES mandated that it be moved anyway, and some other random user then unilaterally moved it this morning not noticing that there'd been a failed requested move with unanimous opposition. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:02, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

"Nixon was the 37th President of the United States"

"Nixon was the 37th president of the United States"

There is a style battle going on. Newer sources are tend to lowercase, older sources tend to uppercase. There is also variation around the world with similar jobs. Editors frequenting the MOS pages as a whole tend to prefer lowercasing a rule, and prefer one consistent style across the encyclopedia. Others prefer styles to follow the sources. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia generally acknowledges that linguistic uses in one country may not be appropriate for another, which is why, for example, we have the "use Australian English" template and respect that articles on Australian topics shouldn't use Americanised spelling even if some Americans might really really want to change it in the interests of a consistent style. I can't really speak to the finer quirks of American English, but our style guides and our sources in general usage are quite clear about when an office is a proper noun and the whims of a small handful of Wikipedians shouldn't override actual reliable sources on correct grammar in a country/subject area. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:12, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I've largely abandoned this issue because of the absence of a clear consensus. To me that means an uninvolved close of a single coherent community-level discussion, probably an RfC. I will defend any such clear consensus whether I agree with it or not, and I'd suggest that you set about pursuing one if you feel strongly about the issue. Until you have one, your arguments weigh no more than MOS:JOBTITLES, which at least has the advantage of having existed unchanged for eighteen months. In other words, this unstructured, low-participation discussion is a waste of time as far as I'm concerned. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:28, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

There are a whole bunch of people frustrated about this who haven't seriously challenged it because of the hassle of going up against the hardcore RfC crowd, as this example demonstrated very well: unanimous consensus that the interpretation of someone who believed they were following WP:JOBTITLES was ridiculous. A fire always starts with a spark, and traction only comes from people discussing the issue. This is the first step, not the only one. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:40, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

An RfC is people discussing the issue. The only differences are (1) wider participation and (2) (commonly, while not required) added structure to clarify editors' positions. If you feel it's constructive to do this first (I don't), knock yourself out. In the meantime, while I won't spend my time and energy actively resisting it, I will consider it disruptive and destabilizing for editors to edit articles based on their personal opinions, on the grounds that there is no clear consensus (not a reference to the actions of any specific editor(s)). ―Mandruss ☎ 07:53, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

An RfC is one way of people discussing the issue, but nowhere does it mandate it has to be the first step. I wasn't the one who tagged it as lacking consensus, but he was right: there are about as many editors who've commented in opposition to it in the last week with zero advertising that the discussion's come up as those who've enthused about it on this talk page for years. It patently lacks consensus as a starting point - and the reason you've got so many non-MOS-regulars popping up in the first place is because of the disruption and destabilisation of articles being edited based on the personal opinions of individual editors even where contradicted by literally 100% of sources. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:18, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Again, those editors (and I have been one of them in the recent past) are merely implementing a guideline that has existed unchanged for 18 months. If that's disruption and destabilisation of articles, I'd like to know what guidelines are for. I doubt there are many Wikipedia guidelines (particularly MoS guidelines) that aren't strongly opposed by quite a number of editors, so that argument is extremely weak AFAIC. It makes no sense that a dozen or so editors should be able to block implementation of a guideline because they disagree with it.

I grant you, this is merely another example of a seriously flawed system that neither of us created, a system that attempts to be simultaneously bottom-up and top-down, resulting in far more instability than stability. I'm retired from a successful career involving complex human-based systems, and I can assure you that is not what a reasonably orderly, efficient, and effective system looks like. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:38, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, this kvetching is pointless. It's the same old rehash, along various tired lines which can be paraphrased thus: 'Me and my friend disagree with MoS, ergo MoS doesn't have consensus.' (Wishful thinking; WP:CONSENSUS does not require unanimity, or we would have no consensus on anything, ever.) 'I didn't get to participate in the earlier discussion, ergo it must be a false consensus.' (Ditto.) 'I'm not getting my way, thus there must be a nefarious conspiracy of terrible people oppressing me.' (Ditto; see also all our civility-related policies.) 'We are legion. But we are afraid.' (Uh ... yeah, whatever.) 'Some jerk misapplied the guideline in one case that pissed me off, ergo the guideline is wrong.' (Obviously fallacious.) 'WP does, stylistically, what the sources do.' (That's just patently false, as explained in detail at WP:CSF and WP:SSF, except when sources independent of the subject are pretty much overwhelmingly doing one specific something different, for a particular type of case, than what MoS advises. We already know for a proven fact that this condition is not met for the capitalization of job titles, including high offices. There's a really ridiculous subtext to this, that runs something like 'This marginally notable person has a job title of "Social Media Evangelist", and the grand total of three sources that mention this person, all of them newspapers that capitalize every job title at all occurrences, give her job title in this form, ergo 100% of sources do, ergo WP must also.' Doesn't work that way, sorry.) 'Since we have MOS:ENGVAR, this means any slight trend I think can be shown in some dialect must be implemented on WP.' (Nope. ENGVAR applies to firmly fixed features of English at a national dialect level, like the colour/color split. Any alleged dialectal trend that doesn't rise to that level falls to the razor of MOS:COMMONALITY. You cannot [without looking silly] cite the first of these guidelines without understanding the latter, how they interact, and the actual purposes of both of them.) 'Various articles don't comply, so there is no consensus.' (A really silly fallacy, given that we all know that any change to any policy or guideline can take many years to be implemented in the content, and none of them are 100% implemented.) 'Since the world's writers are not consistent on it, MoS can't have a rule about it.' (Nope. If this were true, MoS could not have a single thing in it, since there isn't anything in English that 100% of writers out there are consistent about. Our actual rule, throughout MoS, is that if writers out there are not remarkably consistent in applying some stylization, then WP will not use it.) 'A few characters changing case in "my" article is disruption.' (No, it's not, or editing could not happen at all.) 'Articles being brought into conformance with guidelines and policies is disruption.' (No, it's not, or we couldn't have any at all.) 'Actual disruption like editwarring at the article and flamewarring on its talk page, between people trying to implement MOS:JOBTITLES and regular editors at that article, is the fault of the guideline and people implementing it.' (No, it's not. It's the fault of tendentiously trying to sabotage other editors implementing our guidelines, and you can't keep doing that indefinitely.) To use an actual quotation, The Drover's Wife's "A fire always starts with a spark ..." screed is a clear demonstration that this is a WP:GREATWRONGS / WP:BATTLEGROUND matter for this person, who seems unaware that 'become an activist against guidelines I don't like' behavior routinely leads to topic bans. (Fortunately, most editors who arrive at MoS, AT, or other WP:P&G pages with this attitude are disabused of it before it gets to that level.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:01, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Suggesting that users who disagree with you are going to get banned is comical behaviour and you know better. This is how a tiny handful of users who frequent MOS pages are used to acting: try to shut down discussion, ludicrously aggressive personal attacks (branding a unanimous failed WP:RM as "flamewarring on its talk page") and intimidate people into thinking moving to change the thing is too hard or pre-emptively moving an RfC too early. And you've just got the wrong mark if you think that's going to work here. The Drover's Wife (talk) 00:36, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Open an Rfc on this matter, in whatever place you think will get the widest participation. GoodDay (talk) 13:00, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Or those in favor of capitalizing job titles at every occurrence could just WP:Drop the stick. It's a very lost cause. When RM after RM goes against one's position, it's time to stop advocating it, per WP:TE. The existence of a handful of 'I'm a bonehead who didn't really read the guideline' cases that result in move requests that don't happen or moves which get reverted, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the guideline or that it doesn't have consensus. It simply means that boneheads exist. See longer comment above for all the other fallacies detectable in this thread. If someone wants to RfC this, go right ahead. The outcome is firmly predictable from the stability of this guideline material; from it becoming less and less friendly to capitalization over time, following real-world shifts in English usage over the last ~20 years (actually starting around the 1980s); from lack of much opposition before, during, or after these shifts and discussions of them; from the few opponents being the same handful of people over and over again recycling the same already-refuted arguments endlessly as if they had not already been addressed and found lacking (a clumsy form of forum-shopping); from the actual RM results consistently applying the guideline as intended (and not just recently; much of the reason the guideline was tightened was to reflect the RM pattern – our guidelines codify best practices, and are not a means of trying to forcibly change them); from failure of move review to overturn those moves; and so on and so forth. There's just no evidence at all that consensus has changed to favor over-capitalizing these terms again. They're capitalized when they should be: when attached to and effectively part of a name, and when treated in proper-noun form as the subject itself (the President of Ireland as the role/office/title, versus "two presidents of Ireland in the 1980s", a common-noun-phrase usage).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:01, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

"When RM after RM goes against one's position". Where's the evidence? I saw some RMs, and they pointed to source usage. Now there's a JOBTITLES shortcut and that is being used as sufficient contrary to source usage. There is a logical flaw in there. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:44, 2 January 2020 (UTC) NB. I am not in favor of capitalizing job titles at every occurrence. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I went back at least a couple of years years in the talk pages of this page and couldn't find a discussion about WP:JOBTITLES involving more than a tiny handful of people, and none of those people cited a "RM pattern": if anything, as SmokeyJoe says, it's following the sources as long as anyone checks, does an analysis, and points out that the sources wildly contradict WP:JOBTITLES. The Drover's Wife (talk) 00:36, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

To my knowledge, Wikipedia doesn't generally look to sources for style. Content, yes. Style, no. Instead, Wikipedia looks to common (mostly academic) style guides for development of its own style manual. MOS:JOBTITLES is nearly identical to Chicago Manual of Style's guidance for handling job titles, positions, etc. I spot-checked a couple of Encyclopedia Britannica articles, too, and they seem to match the guidance found in MOS:JOBTITLES. I am strongly in favor of striving to consistently style Wikipedia as an academic, encyclopedic source. Our existing MOS lays the appropriate foundation for this. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 00:52, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't generally look to sources for style. No, it doesn't, not if it is just style. Capitalization is not just style. Capitalization conveys meaning. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:36, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Except we do look to sources for style, in two ways. First, we look to mainstream, academic-leaning (not journalistic) style guides of high reputation in developing MoS (i.e., we use the sources that are reliable for English usage in an encyclopedic register, and try to merge their often-conflicting advice, with an eye to what is best for WP, for reasons like MOS:COMMONALITY, WP:CONCISE, MOS:JARGON, WP:Common sense, and various technical matters, starting with MOS:ACCESSIBILITY). Second, in various places throughout MoS is the provision that when reliable sources in the aggregate [across all genres, not just specialist literature] overwhelmingly favor a stylization for a particular subject and it is not what MoS would default to, then there can be an exception for that subject. As for "capitalization conveys meaning": it conveys meaning when the RS in the aggregate and/or the RS on English usage in particular overwhelmingly agree that it does; it doesn't convey meaning just because you say so (WP:NOR, WP:NPOV). See also especially MOS:SIGCAPS; the primary impetus for over-capitalization of this sort is to signify that something is "important" or "special". Not doing that is the primary, foundational guideline of MOS:CAPS. While it's a style that remains common in marketing English, and some journalism (particular in headlines), it's been disfavored in regular English writing since the late Victorian era.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:58, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

User:SMcCandlish, you are confusing external MOS-es with sources. These external style guides would be sources for the article Style guide and similar, but Wikipedians do not use the term "source" the way you are using it here. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:49, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not. I don't think you properly parsed what I wrote. I'm simply restating that internally, as a talk-page, consensus-formation process about MoS itself, we make heavy use of off-site style guides. That is, I'm echoing Eyer's main point and trying to thwart someone taking the statement "Wikipedia doesn't generally look to sources for style" out of context and spinning it to mean something unintended.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:17, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

If we're consistently finding that usage in reliable sources disagree with WP:JOBTITLES, then that strongly suggests that the Chicago Manual of Style - much as it might be preferred by a small handful of editors - is not the most appropriate style guide to be using. For example, in my part of the world, it certainly is not the guidance of the Cambridge style guide for Australian English, which probably explains why it's such a fail when it comes to source usage. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:03, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

You and others have had every opportunity (over and over again) to demonstrate that "we're consistently finding that usage in reliable sources disagree [sic] with WP:JOBTITLES", but have failed. Every time we do mainstream source research on the kinds of phrases at issue here (mostly titles of elected office), the sources are provably not consistently doing anything, and they lean lower-case more and more over time. Even your "ally" in this, SmokeyJoe, himself said clearly: "Newer sources are [sic] tend to lowercase, older sources tend to uppercase." See if you can guess what that means.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:58, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Struck through above. I suspect a mental change of word mid-typing on a mobile device, where it is hard to review. I think I meant that styles change. Capitals used to be widely used to denote importance. Now, less so, but still some. This creates conflict between following sources for old topics, and the desire for consistency. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:56, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

I can only speak to the U.S. (and even then, probably not very well). My company uses Chicago Manual of Style as its base style guide. The education program at my university uses APA. The languages program at my university uses MLA. The local newspaper uses AP. They are all appropriate for their materials/readers/etc. I'll say it differently: even if they all style things differently, they're all correct.

Wikipedia has MOS:JOBTITLES, which appears to be based on CMOS (though I don't know that for sure). Just because a newspaper, journal article, or primary source styles something differently doesn't make WP:MOS incorrect.

I assume that WP:MOS was drafted intentionally by editors before I got here. Just because other style guides don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 01:11, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

It just means that at some stage, someone with a strong preference for CMOS has managed to get that into the MOS. As you note that the alternatives are also correct in your view, it shouldn't be surprising, especially as it gets more aggressively rolled out in a global project (and in geographical places where the CMOS style is particularly alien), that people might revisit whether CMOS was indeed an appropriate choice for this particular project. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:50, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

You've not been involved in MoS discussions long enough to understand the history, I suppose. MoS is based primarily on 2000s–2010s editions of The Chicago Manual of Style, New Hart's Rules, Fowler's Modern English, Garner's Modern English Usage, and Scientific Style and Format. Your idea that it's basically a copy of CMoS is false.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:58, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation: it doesn't change the situation but it's useful to know where these ideas are stemming from. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:24, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

It's quite frustrating when you see lack of consistency in the intros of article groups. See all the British prime minister bios, from Winston Churchill to Boris Johnson, some are capitalised (like all Churchill's predecessors), while others are de-capitalised. GoodDay (talk) 01:21, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

I agree, but I can only fix them so fast. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 01:22, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

A need to fast fix many things is evidence of the possibility of a false consensus in a guideline, and evidence that the wider community is not aware. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:46, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

This is hypercorrection. Forcing new rules only old language and pretending the rules always were. Dicklyon may lambaste people who want to capitalize important things, but that was English. The job, Premier of Victoria, is a singular job of great importance, and was properly capitalized, mostly was, and mostly still is. Unlike the Local Dog Catcher. Primary sources say "Nixon is the President of the United States". Indeed, he was the President of the United States. He was the 37th President of the United States, if you have an affection for counting them. JOBTITLES is an attempt to modify past English. Do it if the sources do it, but Wikipedia follows the sources, it doesn't lead. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:33, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

It's not even old language. Decapitalisation of offices is a preference, in some style guides, in some regions of the world, but not necessarily a widely used one in many contexts. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:50, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

And see also the first rule of MOS:CAPS: "Do not use for emphasis: Initial capitals or all capitals should not be used for emphasis. ... This includes over-capitalization for signification, i.e. to try to impress upon the reader the importance or specialness of something in a particular context." (MOS:EMPHCAPS So, "people who want to capitalize important things" can go do that on their own blog, not here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:58, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

SMcCandlish is doing such an obvious job of talking sense here that I feel no need to add anything. I shall merely watchlist the page in case anyone is daft enough to push it to an !vote. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

"It's quite frustrating when you see lack of consistency": Yes, it does take time to clean up, especially when a handful of editors go the WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:GREATWRONGS route for a period of time. The same tendentiousness ran for over a year when implementing MOS:JR dropping the comma. It's a very similar case, actually: an optional stylization found decreasingly in contemporary, reputably published sources and the style guides they depend on, but considered "the correct form" in an emotionally laden way by a minority of editors who grew up with it and have latched onto it as important when it is trivial. What's important is that our material be consistent and that editors stop fighting over a bit of style nit-picking, which has/had (in both cases) been going on for years. It is not possible for any line-item in MoS or any other WP:P&G page to satisfy 100% of editors, and no editor is satisfied by 100% of our P&G. Fortunately, WP:Consensus does not require unanimity, just more community-persuasive arguments for one option over another.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:58, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I'll just say at this point that if you're yet another person who's frustrated with WP:JOBTITLES but you don't want to put yourself on the receiving end of the kinds of threats and personal attacks that are par for the course from its defenders here, feel free to contact me privately. This is something we'll be working on for a while. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:41, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

And now canvassing to conspire offsite for long-term battlegrounding against a guideline you don't like? I'm sure we'll see that diff come up again later.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:58, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

This is the second time you've directly threatened me for having a different opinion from you. Changing things on Wikipedia often takes time, especially when you know there's existing small-but-determined opposition, which is obvious to anyone who's been on Wikipedia for more than five minutes. You clearly see that moving to change the MOS is completely acceptable when you're doing it and "long-term battlegrounding" and cause for direct threats when someone disagrees with you. This is not appropriate and you are an experienced enough Wikipedian to absolutely know better, especially because you're already under one discretionary sanction for your talk page interactions over the MOS. Most of those who agree with you are capable of respectful disagreement, and I'm not going to reply to any more of your replies containing threats lest I get drawn into the mire. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:24, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Oh, please. I'm trying to prevent you eventually ending up topic-banned, by pointing out what you're doing that's likely to lead there if it continues. Also, reminding you of our behavioral dispute resolution procedures like WP:ANI isn't a "threat" of any kind, from/to anyone; it's a description of process. Also, I am not individually under any such sanctions. See the top of this page. Everyone who edits MoS or its talk pages is subject to discretionary sanctions; that's kind of the point. If you continue railing and ranting indefinitely, there's only one way that ends.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:25, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Watchlisting it now too, Gog the Mild. Thank you, SMcCandlish, for taking the time to explain the matter in such detail. Wikipedia usage should be in line with modern academic style. That is why MOS:JOBTITLES is based on style guides such as The Oxford Style Manual, The Chicago Manual of Style, etc. Surtsicna (talk) 01:19, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Hopefully, the entire community will come to an agreement on whether to capitalise or not. GoodDay (talk) 01:29, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid there is not a single thing the whole community could agree on, but an agreement exists and has been codified as MOS:JOBTITLES. Surtsicna (talk) 01:37, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

but an agreement exists and has been codified as MOS:JOBTITLES.. Evidence? Link to the archived thread please. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 20:43, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

WP:You can search, too. In particular, try the archive search box at the top of this page and at WT:MOS.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:58, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. I did. No evidence of a formal agreement. JOBTITLES is a decade old. The early versions were much more softly written than the current. I suspect it "evolved". Somebody with a history of editing JOBTITLES may well have more sense of context that may tremendously help with searching for what has been implied. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:08, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe: - see the latest section at the bottom of the talk page. Someone else did the digging with predictable results. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:11, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. One of the troubles of catching on things in chronological order. However, I do like to reply personally to User:SMcCandlish, when he posts directly to me. I think mostly share most views, and we are probably friends, but sometimes small differences can be irritating. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:18, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Sure. And of course it evolved, just like all our P&G material. As for the diff-digging below, incomplete as it is, they key point is that the major evolutions happened through RfCs. So, I'll go back to what I said above: feel free to RfC it yet again, but we already know what the answer is going to be. If the principal response the two of you are getting to this latest round of rehashing old decisions is more people defending the current wording and some also saying they're now watchlisting this to oppose if you do open it as an RfC, well, that's telling you which way the wind blows. :-) What's really irritating, community-irritating, is when someone's irritation at a small difference isn't put into perspective and becomes a fight-about-it-forever push. MoS's value is especially in its stability and its favoring of simplicity over complication in matters like this. It's really not hard: if the vast majority of current sources aren't doing something (the same something) stylistically for a specific case, then WP won't either. The exact results of this rubric cannot possibly please everyone all the time, but it's the best we've got, a hard-won compromise between having a fixed house style (like almost all publishers do) and "follow the sources" (a WP specialty). That is, everyone should be happy with the system, even if they don't like every tiny bit of output of that system. Analogy: odds are we each have a favorite restaurant, but do not love every single thing on the menu.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:39, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

If the principal response the two of you are getting to this latest round of rehashing old decisions. Please stop there. Please link the old decision. You are alluding to some RfCs? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:02, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

See thread below with links to RfCs, etc. I'll chalk this up to the threads being "out of phase". On second thought, it's probably best to refactor that into a subsection.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:49, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm a little unclear on JOBTITLES, in particular "and is not a reworded description" because many of the examples are simply the title, or could be simply the title, and are not reworded. To me the following are true (not that the "correct" ones should be the house style just that they are valid):

• Y Donald Trump is President of the United States.
• Y Donald Trump is the President of the United States.
• Y Donald Trump is the president [or leader or whatever] of the United States.
• Y Kim Jong Un is Supreme Leader of North Korea.
• Y Kim Jong Un is the Supreme Leader of North Korea.
• N Kim Jong Un is the supreme leader of North Korea.
• Y Muammar al-Gaddafi was Brotherly Leader and Guide of the Revolution of Libya.
• Y Muammar al-Gaddafi was the Brotherly Leader and Guide of the Revolution of Libya.
• N Muammar al-Gaddafi was the brotherly leader and guide of the revolution of Libya.

I don't think we should say in lower case that Kim is the "supreme" leader of North Korea because that has loaded connotations in English and is not how we would phrase things. This is arguable though since it's not technically incorrect. The Gaddafi example is more unwieldy but it is also more clearly wrong to lowercase the title. Not every title of a leader is equal to how we would describe the position in plain English and I think that disqualifies it from "common noun". So coming up with a broad-brush rule doesn't work IMO, we need something slightly more nuanced. —DIYeditor (talk) 09:31, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Tracing the history of MOS:JOBTITLES to lay a foundation for potential dispute resolution

To clarify who is responsible for this train wreck for anyone with the time to initiate dispute resolution on this, I just traced the history of MOS:JOBTITLES to figure out how we got from a MoS section that used to accurately reflect the way the vast majority of educated intellectuals learned how to write into something that has been completely mangled beyond all recognition.

It looks like MOS:JOBTITLES used to be over at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters. That portion of the MoS used to have a section on "Titles of people." The last good version that most strongly resembles what I recall applying during the 2000s and early 2010s is 4 April 2014.

On 10 September 2017, User:Great scott initiated a RfC on the capitalization issue, which I was unaware of because I had just started a new job a few weeks earlier. User:Great scott was soon blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Kauffner. Earlier, User:The Clever Boy, another sockpuppet of User:Kauffner, had previously vandalized the relevant MoS section by lowercasing "President of the United States" on 9 March 2014. That text was then rephrased by User:Blueboar on 8 February 2015 and so the improper lowercasing of "President" disappeared.

In any event, after User:Great scott was blocked, the next time such improper lowercasing re-emerges is when User:SMcCandlish initiated a second RfC on 21 September 2017 on a specific proposal to revise MOS:JOBTITLES. As far as I can tell, this was never properly advertised on the village pump, and after a tiny minority of WP users concurred, User:SMcCandlish promptly implemented it on 22 October 2017.

On 26 June 2018, User:SMcCandlish then transferred MOS:JOBTITLES into Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography. Notice how that version already contains most of the flaws of the current version.

It is entirely unpersuasive to call this issue a "a very lost cause" (I am referring to that editor's above comments at 15:01 on 2 January 2020) when the edits in favor of lowercasing after 21 September 2017 were mostly the work of a single editor whose individual views do not reflect the way that most educated people actually write. It is entirely unpersuasive to engage in begging the question by pretending a nonexistent consensus exists. It is entirely unpersuasive to do so on a wiki where every edit is publicly recorded and patterns can be easily discerned.

It takes only a casual glance at Google News to see that most well-trained American journalists (especially those working for famous newspapers and newsmagazines) still refer to "The President of the United States" and not "the president of the United States." The entire point of Wikipedia's core policies is that it follows. It never leads. Or as Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not puts it: Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. Those who do not understand that need to find something else to edit on the Internet. --Coolcaesar (talk) 00:44, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Coolcaesar. It seems that your position is very similar to my reading of this. However, I hope this doesn't have to be a "trainwreck". I would prefer to call this "moderate overreach". The notion of not capitalizing job titles where reliable sources are mixed, and of not being tied to specialist sources, is fair. Mandating lowercase regardless of mainstream reliable secondary sources is not fair. There has recently been a wave of decapitalizing "Governor of XXX" articles, which I opposed in one or two cases. It is, in my opinion, a boundary skirmish on rules preferring to not capitalize things. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

About 2 years ago, when nearly all of the US state governor & lt governor bio intros used capitalisation, I came across '2' bios (Al Quie & Rudy Perpich) of Minnesota governors which didn't use them. Every time, I would capitalise? the same 2 editors would revert me & refuse to get into a discussion with me on the matter. This was the first time, I came across the 'de-capitalise per WP:JOBTITLES' push. GoodDay (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

There is clear evidence of style changing at these articles.

The "35th Governor of Minnesota", he "served as the 35th governor of Minnesota from January 4, 1979, to January 3, 1983.

"In 1970, Perpich was elected the 39th lieutenant governor of Minnesota." Are lieutenant governors important?

There's going to have to be an unnatural break somewhere between "Local Dog Catcher" and "President of the United States"

Related articles are in the crossfire. List of lieutenant governors of Minnesota. "This is a list of lieutenant governors of the U.S. state of Minnesota." "state of Minnesota"? The official name of the state is "State of Minnesota", and so it is a proper name. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:00, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

There's still inconsistency within group articles to this day. As a gnome, it's difficult at times, when coming across opposition on both sides. Note: Recently I've been 'de-capitalising' on US political party national conventions. Already (months ago) implemented 'de-capitalisation' in the intros of all the US presidents & vice presidents, the Canadian prime ministers. There's potential confusion still at UK prime ministers, though. GoodDay (talk) 02:07, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

The official name of the state is "Minnesota", per https://www.usa.gov/state-government/minnesota. CThomas³ (talk) 02:46, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't find that. I'll call that a style change. Long ago, it was the style to be wordy. In modern terms, we value the concise. However, there is also the fact that back then "Minnesota" was used for many things, and the concept of it being a state was relatively new. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:02, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Also, things like "the State of Minnesota" and "the City and County of San Francisco" are not names of places, but of legal entities. There's a distinction and it matters. No one lives in the City and County of San Francisco, unless they're illegally squatting in a municipal government office building. >;-) More seriously, consider the difference between "Oakland's best-kept secret" (a local hotspot the tourists haven't invaded yet) and "the City of Oakland's best-kept secret" (probably something scandalous and illegal on the part of someone[s] in the municipal government).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:24, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

User:SMcCandlish, why does it matter if a name is a legal entity? Does a legal entity not get a proper name? Why is The Great State of Minnesota not both a well-defined place and a proper name? Is Trinidad and Tobago a place? I’m pretty sure the City of San Francisco is a place with a name. I think counties engulfed in suburb and sprawl have lost their identity. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:37, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you're going with this, SmokeyJoe - as unhelpful as SMcCandlish has been on this issue more broadly, he's not wrong about this issue regarding titles that are effectively legal entities for geographical places. It seems an odd tangent from the broader issue of offices. The Drover's Wife (talk) 13:54, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Odd tangent? I’m asking questions. What does it matter if a name is a legal entity. Proper names are capitalized, no? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:28, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• There has definitely been some creep here. A few years ago, we distinguished between “Louis XVI was the King of France in 1789” vs “Louis VII was a medieval French king”... that was a distinction most people could understand. Applied to presidents it would be: “George Washington was elected President of the United States in 1789” vs “The first American president was George Washington”.

Then came the question of what to do when there was an ordinal... and the decision to decapitalize in sentences like: “Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd president of the United States.” I opposed that, but accept that I was in the minority.

Now the argument seems to have morphed into the idea that we should decapitalize the position itself, even when there is no ordinal, as in: “The president of the United States is elected every four years”. That is a step too far, and an example of over-reach. Blueboar (talk) 13:17, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

@Blueboar:, you may want to !vote on the RfC at the top of the page before it's closed, since it deals with that very topic and your opinion's going to be practically overlooked otherwise. The Drover's Wife (talk) 13:56, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Birthplace, nationality, and citizenship bio infobox parameters with matching values

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see WT:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#RfC on birthplace, nationality, and citizenship parameters with matching values, an RfC opened after initial discussion fizzled out with too few participants. It's likely that any emerging guideline line-item from this would be in MOS:BIO not MOS:INFOBOX.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:37, 2 January 2020 (UTC)