Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Take a look at these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
Start a new discussion

NoonIcarus and "Failed verification"

NoonIcarus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Apologies in advance for the wall of text, but this is mainly due to having to outline and explain a list of concerning edits. NoonIcarus has inaccurately cited "failed verification" in an apparent effort to remove information from the project. This was addressed before by Mbinebri in the 2002 Venezuelan coup attempt article talk page, who said "In your recent edits, you removed info again, claiming failed verification because you couldn't access the two cited articles. I think this was inappropriate". More recently, I have noticed NoonIcarus performing this similar edit (and engaging in an edit war) to remove information about leftists being tortured during a former Venezuelan government, arguing that this was not presented in sources. Well, this information is from the New York Amsterdam News article cited, where the paper writes "Posada worked as an official in Venezuela's DISIP ... where he participated in the torture of left-wing activists". So, instead of NoonIcarus actually not having access to information to "verify" source content, it appears that they are intentionally ignoring source content in order to maintain a particular POV on the project.

After noticing this repetitive behavior, I reviewed NoonIcarus' similar "failed verification" edits, recognizing inconsistencies:

• Carlos Vecchio: NoonIcarus removes information about Vecchio working for ExxonMobil, saying it "failed verification." However, on page 38 of Libres: el nacimiento de una nueva Venezuela, Vecchio writes "Trabajo entonces en Mobil de Venezuela, la empresa petrolera, estaba ganando seis veces más de lo que ganada en PDVSA," ("I then worked at Mobil de Venezuela, the oil company, I was earning six times more than what I earned at PDVSA", showing that he clearly worked for ExxonMobil. This may be an attempt to hide that a high-level Venezuelan opposition leader previously worked for an American company, which is controversial in Venezuelan politics.
• 2007 Venezuelan constitutional referendum: NoonIcarus removes information about the Centre for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies working with the Venezuelan opposition during the election, citing "Failed verification, dead links". Strangely, these Stratfor articles were taken down after I added them to the election article, however they are still present in Google searches (as of now, though I took screenshots if necessary) and the article in particular can be seen mostly intact in this random 2007 forum. And here. Edit: Links should work now. Thanks!--WMrapids (talk) 10:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
• Centre for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies: NoonIcarus tags "CANVAS is funded by primarily American organizations" as "Failed verification". However, if you look at the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung article about the Venezuelan opposition's links to CANVAS, it says "Canvas wird wesentlich von amerikanischen Organisationen finanziert" ("Canvas is largely funded by American organizations"), showing that this can be verified.
• Venezuelan opposition: NoonIcarus removed information about CANVAS training members of the Venezuelan opposition, saying "Failed verification. This information comes from a 2012 WikiLeaks piece". This is entirely inaccurate and a falsehood as this information is sourced from Stratfor, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and Le Monde diplomatique, with these sources not citing Wikileaks at all.
• Guarimba: NoonIcarus tagged the sentence "Oxford Analytica wrote that half of the protest deaths resulted at barricades" as "Failed verification". In the cited article, it clearly states "an estimated half of those killed losing their lives at opposition barricades".
• Guarimba 2: NoonIcarus says "Failed verification" about the sentence "Many families were confined to their homes as a result of guarimbas and in turn, children were prevented from attending school and individuals were unable to receive medical care." The source, the notable Venezuelan historian Margarita López Maya writes "Las protestas, conocidas como el «guarimbazo», ... [resultaron con el] confinamiento de centenares de familias a sus hogares por los cierres de vía que impidieron llevar a los niños a las escuelas, acudir al trabajo, o llegar a centros de salud." ("The protests, known as the 'guarimbazo', ... [resulted with the] confinement of hundreds of families to their homes due to road closures that prevented them from taking children to schools, going to work, or reaching health centers."
• Guarimba 3: With the sentence "At some guarimbas, protesters rob individuals who criticize the method", NoonIcarus said "Failed verification. Nowhere to be seen in article". The cited article by The Atlantic says "more radical elements of the party take to what’s called guarimba ... MUD supporters have stationed themselves at these ... shaking down people who don’t support the shutdown".
• Protests against Nicolás Maduro: A sentence about opposition protesters attacking a government facility said "President Maduro said the attack forced the evacuation of workers and about 89 children", with NoonIcarus saying that this had "Failed verification, no mention of children". The archived story, however, says "había 89 niños dentro de la sede, de los cuales 3 necesitaron asistencia con oxígeno" ("there were 89 children inside the headquarters, of which 3 needed assistance with oxygen"). One could excuse a potential lack of knowledge about web archiving, but NoonIcarus is very knowledgeable about web archiving when they want to be.

This is just a small review of the last four months of editing by NoonIcarus, so again (see here about the previous inappropriate use of "stable version"), who knows how much they have removed using the "failed verification" method this time. Overall, NoonIcarus' editing behavior makes it clear that they are removing information not based on "failed verification", but for other reasons; most likely related to seeing this information as a bad POV about the Venezuelan opposition. This is further evidence to add to the previous concerns about NoonIcarus not being here to build an encyclopedia. WMrapids (talk) 06:32, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Wow. These "failed verification" lies (which is what these are) are so pervasive that unless NoonIcarus has a very good explanation for all of these, I'd go ahead with a site ban. ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 07:09, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

All of these edits are recent or recent-ish (2024), and it's apparent from his userpage that NoonIcarus speaks Spanish. NoonIcarus isn't an inexperienced editor. I do find NoonIcarus' position defensible on the 2007 Venezuelan constitutional referendum; I could imagine that if I saw commentary I found suspicious that was sourced to a dead link, I might tag it with {{fv}}. I also think he's got an arguable case on Guarimba 3 because "shaking down" doesn't necessarily mean "robbing". On the other matters I fully side with WMrapids.—S Marshall T/C 09:25, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

@S Marshall: There was a URL issue,[1][2] though as I said, the articles were still easily accessible on Google. WMrapids (talk) 10:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I can see your side of it. I just think it's only fair to note that it was a contentious claim sourced to a dead link.—S Marshall T/C 14:57, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

IMO the correct solution is to use {{dead link}} for the link not working, and also {{Verify source}} if you have doubts and cannot check the source due to the dead link. Failed verification implies that you checked the source and could not find the claim rather than you could not view the source. Note that the documentation for the failed verification template specifically says you should use dead link instead when the website is unreachable. Nil Einne (talk) 16:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

While I didn't see anything in the documentation that I saw that says it's okay to use both the dead link and verify source template, I'd argue it's perfectly fine since they describe two related but separate issues. One is that the link is dead, so someone needs to either fix it in some way. E.g. they could find an archival link. Or alternatively replace it with a working source. Or in some cases if the source doesn't need a link ensure that there is sufficient info in the citation and possibly remove the link. The second issue is that an editor has doubts over the content but couldn't access the source to confirm it one way or the other. So wants someone who does have access to the source to verify it, perhaps providing a quote on the talk page to help or something. This isn't so different from a book or journal the editor doesn't have access to or a paywalled website, except here the problem is a dead link so fixing the dead link and confirming it verifies should be enough. If for whatever reason e.g. an editor gnoming a lot of related dead links doesn't have time to check, they're perfectly fine fixing the dead link, removing the dead link template and leaving the verify source for someone else to deal with perhaps even the editor who added it in the first place when they find the link was fixed. Nil Einne (talk) 16:16, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Using {{dead link}} is the correct option, but Template:Failed verification/doc only mentioned that in the body. I've made a slight change to reflect that in the lede of the documentation. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 16:19, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The main issue with said sources is that their format ([3]) did not show how they were accessed in the first place. There weren't archive links, archive dates or quotes, and if they had been truly accessed just a few days ago they should have been available when I did. I want to leave clear that I oppose removing links for being dead as the only reason, and I have rescued several of these references when I have found the archives. I was unaware about {{Verify source}}, and it looks like an useful tag that I will probably use in the future. Kind regards, --NoonIcarus (talk) 15:59, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

It should be noted that {{Verify source}} should only be used only after you have made a good faith attempt to verify the information yourself if you are unable to find it, and still have doubts about its authenticity. You might also be interested in WP:IABOT, which can often repair dead links. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 16:18, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@The Wordsmith: Not trying to bludgeon here, but "good faith" tagging has been a consistent issue for NoonIcarus as well.(1,2,3) @Boynamedsue: even said "All of the in text tags here lacked justification. I am very concerned about Noonicarus… This is the diametric opposite of our actual policy". Just wanted to share this to provide more context. WMrapids (talk) 19:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Response here. --NoonIcarus (talk) 19:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure thing. Thank you kindly, --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:53, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Re Carlos Vecchio: The cited book says "Mobil de Venezuela" and in the previous paragraph it suggests that the date was July 1998. Wikipedia's ExxonMobil article says Exxon merged with Mobil to form ExxonMobil in November 1999. So I think NoonIcarus was correct, the Wikipedia claim that BLP subject Carlos Vecchio worked for ExxonMobil was poorly sourced. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:07, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

This is splitting hairs. Looking at History of ExxonMobil, we do not simply say "Mobil" when discussing the company historically. If we want to be super specific, "Mobil de Venezuela" could have been edited as a redirect (like Mobil de Venezuela), but this still doesn't warrant NoonIcarus' removal of the information entirely. WMrapids (talk) 14:59, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

In fact Mr Vecchio did work for ExxonMobil a few years later, I was thrown off by your quoting of a passage that is not about that. Although I think the citing could have been more specific I was wrong to say it's poorly sourced. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:26, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

@Nil Einne, The Wordsmith, and Peter Gulutzan: I'm appreciative of you all clarifying the appropriate usage of templates and the source content regarding Mobil (ExxonMobil). But, Mbinebri already warned NoonIcarus about inappropriately using "failed verification", S Marshall notes that NoonIcarus has the experience to have known better and JCW555 suggests a "site ban" since the user appears to be a deliberately removing unwanted information. We have been dealing with NoonIcarus' inappropriate edits for some time now (block deletions and canvassing, edit warring against consensus, activist/battleground edits). So, do any of you have suggestions on how to remedy NoonIcarus' gaming behavior that has continued (especially on Venezuelan topics) for years now? I previously suggested a topic ban, which is less severe than a full "site ban".--WMrapids (talk) 18:58, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

• Such suggestions should wait until NoonIcarus has had some time to respond, I think. We normally give users a while to answer.—S Marshall T/C 19:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Pre-emptively, I would definitely support a TBAN, because I have watched NoonIcarus's behaviour for a long time, and it is absolutely unacceptable. To be honest, I am suprised they haven't recieved a ban or block of any sort regarding this issue. I fear that they might be one of the unblockables, and that would be a great shame. JML1148 ^{(talk | contribs)} 05:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@JML1148 The reason this issue is getting little attention from admins is because of how verbose all of the participants are and how this dispute is outside of the knowledge of most people in the west, which is the English Wikipedia's main editor base. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 17:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I totally get the the thing regarding the conduct of the participants. I don't really think the issue is with it being outside the knowledge of most editors, though - there's been a few RfCs with widespread participation including the dispute between NoonIcarus and WMRapids. I definitely think a large number of administrators know about the dispute and the poor conduct involved, but aren't getting involved. JML1148 ^{(talk | contribs)} 06:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I didn't remember where we knew each other from, until I found the request for comment RfC: VENRS, which WMrapids started. If your understanding about my experience as an editor comes mostly from WMrapids, I kindly ask if you have a chance to take a look at the ANI own complaints against WMrapids below. Best wishes, --NoonIcarus (talk) 15:48, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Currently writing a response to the accusations. --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

If I understand this correctly, the allegation is that a user should be blocked for adding "failed verification" tags where other tags are appropriate? Isn't that a sledgehammer/nut response? As people have already shown the first two e examples aren't straightforward, I'm looking at the third example, the Frankfurter Zeitung source on Centre for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies. The tagged reference is as follows: "Generation 2007". Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. 1 April 2019. There is no link, so impossible for someone to verify without finding the 1 April 2019 edition of FAZ, something I couldn't manage to do easily. It looks like the complainant here has access to the text, as they quote it on this page, so why not just add a hyperlink, or at least give the full quotation and maybe a page number, and remove the tag? Maybe "failed verification" is the wrong tag, but surely the ref doesn't meet our standards of verification and therefore Noonicarus was correct to tag it? BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC) Now I'm looking at the fourth example, Venezuelan opposition. Here the sources were removed rather than tagged. All of the removed sources are problematic from a verification point of view: the same FAZ ref without a link, a Monde Diplo article that is paywalled but which in another edit Noonicarus says doesn't mention Venezuela, and Stratfor links which are dead. So it would have been right to tag it. The removal was part of what seems to be quite a lot of back and forth editing with the complainant here inserting very POV material and Noonicarus hastily removing it. Would have been better for both editors to slow down and talk it out, but this is not an example of one user deviously using "failed verification" as framed in the complaint. The fifth example, Guarimba, is a bit like the third: the citation to Oxford Analytica doesn't have a hyperlink so is impossible to verify. The quote is too short to confirm it supports the text. Noonicarus tags it instead of removing it. It should be tagged in some way as it does indeed need more to verify it. BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:50, 15 March 2024 (UTC) With the sixth example, also from Guarimba, I agree with WMrapids that on the face of it this should not have been removed. Noonicarus' edit summary is "Failed verification. Care should be also be taken, since unreliable government sources are frequently used, such as Venezolana de Televisión and Correo del Orinoco. It's clear that this is not the best source" which doesn't seem to match the content removed, suggesting it may have been a mistake, and WMRapids was right to revert it. BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:01, 15 March 2024 (UTC) The seventh example, same WP article, was also a bad edit. Possibly Noonicarus searched the source without noticing the paywall half way down but the full article[4] does include the "shakedown" passage. I'd say the removed content was a rather POV rendering of the material, so this may have provoked this excessive response. So far I agree with WMRapids in two out of seven examples. There doesn't seem to be the malignant pattern the complaint implies. BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC) Last one, on the protests. It's true the second source, a dead link, contained text about children, so flagging as need verification or checking the archive would have been better than removal. However, the actual claim in the WP article text doesn't correspond to the sources as comments attributed to Maduro (including about children) weren't made by Maduro. Again, there was bad POV material to which Noonicarus overreacted. So three out of eight edits raised here are problematic, but not in a way that suggests a need to sanctions. Is there an 1RR rule on Venezuela articles? That might be a better solution, to calm down the editing in general. BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:20, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bobfrombrockley: I think you might be missing some of the context here. Although whether or not this specific incident warrants sanctions is debatable, according to your analysis, NoonIcarus has a history of POV pushing, incivility and assuming ownership of articles. There is a very long and detailed comment that WMRapids left on a previous ANI incident, found here. JML1148 ^{(talk | contribs)} 08:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

As I explained in my own response to the comment, the problem is that there hasn't been much pushing from my part, but rather from WMrapids. They have aggresively introduced POV in several articles for months now: National_Directorate of Intelligence and Prevention Services, Venezuelan opposition, Guarimba, 2007 Venezuelan constitutional referendum, 2019 Venezuelan blackouts, 2015 Venezuelan parliamentary election, 2013 Venezuelan municipal elections. Most, if not all, of the recent disputes with WMrapids have resulted from me challenging the POV content and WMrapids' reluctance to change it. As of article ownership, it's enough to point out to articles such as Operation Gideon (2020), Rupununi uprising and Guarimba to show how difficult it has been to make any changes different from the editor's preferred version. --NoonIcarus (talk) 02:38, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you JML1148. I wasn't aware of that context. Was WMRapids' last complaint supported by the community? It seems to me that WMRapids engages in exactly the same sort of behaviour that NoonIcarus is accused of in these same contentious topic areas, and if NoonIcarus has been a bit quick on the trigger with tagging WMRapids content (which often tends to POV), WMRapids is quick to revert NoonIcarus' edits without establishing consensus. Both of them do engage in discussion on talk pages, but often it is hard to get consensus due to a lack of un-involved editors. I don't think this is a disciplinary matter, and if it is then similar sanctions should apply to WMRapids. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:35, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Prequel to some of the tagging mentioned in the allegation above appears to be a request to the OP for info on the sourcing which was responded to rather brusquely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2007_Venezuelan_constitutional_referendum#Stratfor BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:55, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bobfrombrockley: It looks brusque and rude, but it actually isn't. OP pointed to dead links asking "How did you get the information?" WMRapids replied on 06:36, 12 March 2024 that the links came from Google and corrected the deadlinks four hours later (10:45, 12 March 2024) saying, "No idea how this happened. Links should be fixed." Six hours after the links were corrected (16:32, 12 March 2024), instead of thanking WMRapids for correcting them, OP said, "Rude. It's your responsibility to ensure the verifiability of the content." WMRapids already had, so if anyone was rude, it was NoonIcarus, not WMRapids. One wonders if OP even made a minimal effort to correct the links.

I will give WMRapids the thanks at that discussion that s/he deserved and so the context is clearer for anyone who reads the short back and forth.--David Tornheim (talk) 22:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

My message showing how the previous links gave no results in Web Archive should hint enough that I did try to fix the links. WMrapids fixed the references five days after the ping, only after I pointed out this fact again in this ANI. --NoonIcarus (talk) 23:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

WMrapids fixed the references five days after the ping, only after I pointed out this fact again in this ANI. I don't believe that is true. WMRapids fixed the links on 10:45, 12 March 2024 shortly after ActivelyDisinterested explained the link problem on 09:08, 12 March 2024. (Thanks.) From my review of your contributions here at AN/I, your first comment here was 09:58, 13 March 2024--a day after the links were corrected. Please provide a diff showing where you pointed this out at this ANI before WMrapids corrected the link on 10:45, 12 March 2024. Providing a false timeline does not help your case.--David Tornheim (talk) 01:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@David Tornheim: You're right. It was after ActivelyDisinterested told me that I thanked them and fixed the links about ten minutes later. WMrapids (talk) 02:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm striking that specific part since you're correct. My main point stands, though: WMrapids provided this example to falsely accuse me of "ignoring the content", when I showed in my comment that I tried accessing the references and that Web Archive did not provide any results. --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bobfrombrockley: As I said in the opening of this discussion, Mbinebri already warned NoonIcarus that a "failed verification" tag is inappropriate if the user didn't have access to the source. A source does not need a link to be included. Failed verification means that someone had read the source and the content did not match the source. So, no, many of the tags and edit summaries were not "correct" as you suggest and NoonIcarus was deliberately removing information without properly verifying it.

I know that you two have worked pretty closely together on removing some info from United States involvement in regime change. This is where NoonIcarus and I have had a conflict (their frequent removals), but I reached out to them in an effort to avoid edit warring, suggesting that we add to articles and discuss instead of constant removals. This worked for but a moment until they reverted back to edit warring. It crossed the line when they inappropriately began removing information citing "failed verification", and now we are here. WMrapids (talk) 14:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

By "worked together closely", I think you mean that we have at times agreed on what the content should look like and you've disagreed. On that page, you secured consensus for some of your preferred edits and not for others. It seems to me that you both engage properly in talk pages and I was surprised to see you escalate this to an incident for admins. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Same here, particularly since WMrapids never told me about the misuse of "failed verification" or claimed that I wasn't accessing the references. While I have been frustrated by slow progress, I felt that the conflict had escaled down until now. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

1RR is a solution that has been proposed previously and I have tried to abide by. It wouldn't solve all of the current issues, but it is not currently implemented and it probably would be a good first step. --NoonIcarus (talk) 12:51, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this, this may help lower the temperature without an excessive overreaction. Allan Nonymous (talk) 22:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

How long are admins going to let this go? It has been obvious for some time that Noonicarus can not edit competently on Latin American political articles and they need to be topic-banned at the very least.Boynamedsue (talk) 06:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Another few days. The OP has had time to write a thorough and well-formatted complaint. We give their target the same courtesy.—S Marshall T/C 08:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

WMrapids and source misinterpretation

WMrapids (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

TL;DR: WMrapids accuses me of "ignoring source content" but omits that I access said content and try to help with verifiability, such as by asking for quotes, which the editor never provided until now. WMrapids has a history of source misinterpretation that needs to be checked.

I was hoping that with this exchange and more interaction in talk pages there would be less conflict but alas, we find ourselves here again. I have already made several complaints about WMrapids' poor behavior in the past, including but not limited to edit warring, blanking and hounding (ANI#User:WMrapids and WP:ASPERSIONS, ANI#User:WMrapids (blanking), ANI#Filibustering and hounding by WMrapids). For the sake of brevity I will focus in the recent issues.

WMrapids has a history of reference misinterpretation, original research and poor sourcing, sometimes leading to BLP violations (eg: WP:NPOV/N#Nelson Bocaranda and Talk:Sanctions during the Venezuelan crisis#Lancet editorial misrepresented), not to mention lack of attribution or personal interpretation, as with the "shaking down" example. Controversial or fringe claims such as a congressman leading an auto theft gang, the CIA infiltration of Venezuelan intelligence services or the opposition involvement in the 2019 blackouts don't help either. The editor continues accusing me of bias, but with them casting doubts about Venezuelan torture victims testimonies [5][6][7][8][9][10] and own removal of content[11][12][13] shows that the editor does not hold all of the information to the same standard depending on its point of view. Another example of this is how they question the Organization of American States as a source in the Guarimba article ([14]), but doesn't have to have an issue with using it at the Ayacucho and Juliaca massacres articles (1, 2). To this date no explanation has been provided for this.

When I say "failed verification" it doesn't mean that I wasn't able to access the source or that I was too lazy to try to. God knows I have. Web Archive, Google Books, JSTOR, all the possible means available online if I don't happen to have an offline method to verify. Threads that include Talk:Thor Halvorssen (businessman)#CIA informant accusation, Talk:DISIP#Luis Posada Carriles, Talk:Venezuelan opposition#Foreign affairs and Talk:Tren de Aragua#Xenophobia show that I have accessed the references and that I am familiar with their content, if I had already not said it at the edit summaries.

WMrapids often doesn't include URLs, pages, quotes or other means to help with verifiability for bibliographical sources, even when they are easily accesible (just as BobFromBrockley as noted above), and have continued to do so even when other users that asked for them to be included. The responsability to ensure the verifiability of the information lies on the user that adds it, but the user shifts this burden onto other editors, best exemplified by one of the last responses to the source requests: "Google"[15]. Talk pages such as Talk:2007 Venezuelan constitutional referendum#Stratfor are witness that I have tried asking about the original quotes or learning more about the content in question, even when I haven't found it after accessing the source, and I often choose rewording or fixing the references instead of removal when I have the opportunity: [16][17][18][19][20].

I am very dissapointed that this is the first time that any of these quotes are brought up: not in its references, not in the talk pages, but to make a case against me, as they have with other editors that have challenged their edits, for requesting them in the first place. I don't want to speak on behalf of Mbinebri, but I believe that our exchange was a lot more open and amicable at Talk:2002 Venezuelan coup attempt#Recent edits... with more to go(?) than the ones that I've had with WMrapids when I have challenged the content.

Responses to WMrapids accusations

The text's original source about Luis Posada Carriles (Bardach, Ann Louise (2002). Cuba Confidential: Love and Vengeance in Miami and Havana. Random House. pp. 184–186. ISBN 978-0-375-50489-1.), which describes the group saying [he] immediately went to war against the leftist guerrilla movements supported by Castro in Venezuela. It directly contradicts the description of he participated in the torture of left-wing activists. Searching "Exxon" in Google Books gives back page 56, whose preview doesn't mention anything about Qatar or Vecchio being a tax manager. Looking online, the main websites that have this information are outlets with a heinous reliability record, such as  The Grayzone (RSP entry) [21] and  Telesur (RSP entry) [22], as well as Venezuelan state outlets. This was added to the article just months after these articles were published:[23]. Modifying the URL solves this issue. See Talk:2007 Venezuelan constitutional referendum#Stratfor for the CANVAS content. The provided links were broken, Web Archive [24][25] didn't throw any results, and I asked for the specific quote. Nothing misleading here, the provided reference did not reflect the added content. I'm glad this has been fixed now. The information about the alleged relations between the Venezuelan opposition, Otpor! and CANVAS comes from Wikileaks' "Global Intelligence Files". This is even mentioned by a source that WMrapids provided:Wikileaks Docs Expose Famed Serbian Activist’s Ties to ‘Shadow CIA’. Stratfor links were broken (see above) and Le Monde diplomatique didn't mention Venezuela, something I also asked at Talk:Venezuelan opposition#Foreign affairs.  WikiLeaks (RSP entry) is an unreliable source per WP:RS/PS. See S Marshall's comment regarding "shaking down". I'm not the only person that does not think that "extortion" is the same as "robbing" If I recall correctly, I removed the information about children because the sentence talked specifically about evacuation. Yahoo's source was also dead, but can be accessed through Archive and says: Several people, including a young girl, have been rescued from Venezuela's Housing Ministry after it was set on fire by anti-government protesters.[26] If I had removed content simply because the links are dead and I didn't bother trying accessing them, as WMrapids claims, I would have deleted the whole statement, which is clearly not the case. The only exceptions that I can see are Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung's and Oxford Analytica's sources; in both cases I tagged the sentences accordingly and did not remove the content. I'm finding out about {{verify source}} due to this thread, and I will probably use in the future in this context. As of López Maya's source, I simply did not find the original source. It is a 25 pages document and WMrapids usually doesn't provide quotes for the references, as I mentioned above.

I cannot stress how exhausted I am of this. It will be almost a year since this pattern has started since WMrapids started editing in Venezuelan topics. I don't know what to ask anymore besides for the community to make up their position based on this information and to propose a solution. --NoonIcarus (talk) 15:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

PS: I don't want to delve too much into the POV pushing accusations to not make the thread longer than it already is, and that it is neither the main topic at hand nor diffs have been provided to justify them, but in turn I want to provide a few in response:[27][28][29]. I don't care about any specific point of view, just about the quality of the sourcing. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Given that you are attempting to boomerang this back onto me, as @JML1148: mentioned this "unblockable" behavior, I will try to provide a short response.

Yes, I may forget to include specific quotes and page numbers on occasion, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that you inaccurately designated content as "failed verification" and removed it inappropriately.

You also failed to justify any removal based on "failed verification":

1. The Posada information was based on the newspaper article, not the book.
2. You're attempting to deflect the information on Vecchio to Grayzone (who you personally and understandably have a beef with) instead of actually verifying the source itself.
3. We can understand that this was an accident, yet this could have been easily verifiable doing an internet search for the article title.
4. Regarding CANVAS, you inappropriately said the information was from Wikileaks when this was not the case.
5. The "shakedown" appears up for debate, though looking at extortion, it seems like protesters forcing disapproving people to give them belongs seems like a robbery to me.
6. The information about children was removed, period. You could have looked at the archived link to El Universal.
7. Finally, you use the excuse of not being knowledgeable of "verify source", which seems like a cop out for a ten-year Wikipedia user.

So, it still is clear to me that you are deflecting blame and making excuses for your inappropriate behavior on the Project instead of listening to the years of warnings from other users. I admit to not being a perfect user and you yourself have clarified things for me, but I never went as far as being dishonesty. WMrapids (talk) 17:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I wrote a response towards your accusations. Nothing more, nothing less. You're accusing me of deliberately ignoring the content in the references, and the diffs I provide show this is clearly false. Your lack of URLs, pages and quotes has been the norm, not the exception.

If we want to talk about dishonesty, it's probably best to ask: if for weeks I had asked for quotes or on what the changes were based (Talk:Thor Halvorssen (businessman)#CIA informant accusation, Talk:National Directorate of Intelligence and Prevention Services#Luis Posada Carriles, Talk:Venezuelan opposition#Foreign affairs, Talk:Tren de Aragua#Xenophobia and Talk:2007 Venezuelan constitutional referendum#Stratfor), why is it only now that you're providing them for the first time? You once said it is becoming exhausting that we are arguing over the definition of a shake down now[30]. Do you find these questions annoying? That is something different and that you can say, but saying that I'm ignoring source content is deceptive.

By providing the sources only now, it shows how easily and accessible it is for you, but here it looks not as an attempt to help with the content verifiability or address my behavior, but rather to sanction me. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

And talking about the {{verify source}} tag, it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. One thing is tagging, another thing is contesting and removing. I only said that I'll be looking using it more in the future. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Topic ban from Latin American political articles for NoonIcarus

Support topic ban: After reviewing the response from NoonIcarus, it appears that they will continue to deflect their misbehavior onto others and have not learned from the years of warnings they have encountered. Again, while I am admittedly not a perfect user myself, it does not justify their dishonest editing, frequent edit warring and their battleground behavior in apparent acts of activism.--WMrapids (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• No. Proposals are needed here but it's best if they come from uninvolved people.—S Marshall T/C 18:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Ah, agreed then. I was following the proposals already shared above, so no bad intentions here. Thanks for keeping this discussion in line! WMrapids (talk) 18:48, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• [Later] This is complicated and hard to resolve. There have been previous reports by both parties and they've often been archived without result. That shouldn't happen again this time, and I've used {{DNAU}} to make sure it doesn't.
  Aside from the conflict of views about Venezuela, there's an ongoing issue that reduces to citing sources with sufficient precision. NoonIcarus expects citations to be rather precise, and he tags citations he sees as vague. WMrapids' citations are less precise, and he objects to NoonIcarus' insistence. From WMrapids' point of view, NoonIcarus looks like he's griefing; while from NoonIcarus' point of view, WMrapids is adding material that isn't properly sourced. WMrapids expects NoonIcarus to fix imprecise citations when he finds them; while NoonIcarus wants to tag them for someone else to fix.
  I think part of what we need to do here is to define good sourcing practice and set expectations about how to deal with citations that have poor precision.—S Marshall T/C 18:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Well, I want to clear this up now. My point of view is that others shouldn't have to clean up after citations. Now, I get it, my citations weren't exactly the most detailed, but this is something that I can and will improve upon (this also could have all been solved on my talk page if there was actually a sincere concern). The issue I and others have is that NoonIcarus disingenuously marked content as "failed verification" and removed it, with most of this content being controversial towards the Venezuelan opposition. This is a clear behavioral pattern that NoonIcarus has continuously participated in, which is the true issue before us. WMrapids (talk) 19:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  I have asked you countless times for content and sources when in doubt, and both SandyGeorgia and I have asked you to add links in your references previously. This is not a new issue. --NoonIcarus (talk) 02:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  If editor X adds citations that are hard to verify and Y editor tags them, I'm not sure it's clearcut which editor is expecting others to clean up afterwards. Tagging seems to me the right approach, so the community can improve it. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  I want to clarify that I don't mind fixing the references if I have the opportunity, it is something that I have done in the past: [31][32][33][34] I just think this should not be the norm, or at least that the editor can help improving the format if possible. Too much precision probably isn't needed either. Just an URL should work in most cases, as it usually does, but if one isn't available, at least a quote and page. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@S Marshall: Many thanks for the mediation, by the way. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban on Latin American politics -- a wider TB to include politics in general might protect us from possible similar behavior in U.S. politics--especially those that might tangentially overlap with the interest this editor has in Latin American politics. I do think this ban should be extended to Spanish Wikipedia and WikiMedia files, but my understanding is that other languaged Wikipedia have their own judicial proceedings.

I don't think a site ban is necessary, as I don't think the editor has shown much interest in anything else, and maybe if s/he works on other subject matter might eventually understand just how problematic the behavior has been.

I agree with other editors that TL;DR is a real problem in this subject area. I think the reason for that has a lot to do with the fact that mainstream RS that is critical of United States involvement in regime change has been blacklisted on Wikipedia, by citing the mainstream U.S. sources that tend to parrot the U.S. State Department perspective (as I explain at WP:RS/N, here).

I remember NoonIcarus's behavior under the former name Jamez42. In January 2020, s/he received a 1-year editing restriction for behavior like the above. After the editing restriction expired, at some point the behavior returned. I warned him/her on 2/9/24 about repeated reverts of the same material, and s/he immediately deleted it without archiving with the edit summary "A single revert does not warrant this warning. Stop this harassment." --David Tornheim (talk) 20:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

•  Comment: Linking this February thread between the filer and you, for context for the participants: User talk:WMrapids#Allegations against NoonIcarus.

I think it would also be helpful if you could specific which critical mainstream RS sources you're referring to. In  The Grayzone's (RSP entry) request for comment, you supported that it be categorized either under option 1 or 2, and I supported its deprecation (a decision I wholy stand by, by the way). Grayzone's rant about the decision and their attack against editors, including myself, was one of the reasons why I requested a change for my username. The RfC was also opened three weeks before you filed your own ANI against me four years ago. I really hope this decision of mine is not part of the reason why you're supporting a topic ban. Best wishes. --NoonIcarus (talk) 23:04, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

No. It's not because of a difference of opinion at a single RfC. It's the POV editing which has gone on for years, which I and numerous other editors have observed and expounded upon here and elsewhere: [35],[36], and [37]. If the warnings were heeded, we would not be here, and I would not be advocating for a topic ban.

To give an example of this POV-editing, and what prompted this warning: NoonIcarus kept reverting to his/her preferred claim that the Presidency of Venezuela was disputed. This was no longer tenable after 30 December 2022, because "Venezuela's opposition national assembly voted...to remove interim President Juan Guaido [and] dissolve his government..." [38]

When at least four editors (one me) tried to remove the claim that the Presidency was still disputed (after 30 December 2022), NoonIcarus reverted, and kept citing an obsolete RfC from 10 September 2021 and also despite this RfC closed 3 December 2021 that determined "There is a clear consensus that Juan Guaidó isn’t the interim president of Venezuela." (In the 3 December 2021 RfC, of the twelve !votes, NoonIcarus was one of only two editors claiming Guaido was still "interim president".) It wasn't until I filed this RfC on 9 February 2024 that the matter was settled. It is not surprising that of the eight !votes, NoonIcarus was alone in claiming the Presidency is disputed. I don't consider that cooperative editing and the ability to judge the WP:RS with WP:NPOV. It's more like ownership and advocacy for the opposition. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

A RfC that I suggested myself, about a change that had been disputed by at least two other editors: [39][40][41]. It's simply not as you're painting it. As I said in the RfC itself, if the community is clear on the position, I don't have any issues with the outcome.

I asked before you have been inactive for nearly four years, until WMrapids left a message in your talk page (User talk:David Tornheim#Operation Gideon (2020)). The actions you're describing are from 2020 and before (already dealt before in the specific ANI) and from this year, not a pattern that has continued over four years.

With that being said, I wonder once again why WP:RS/N was mentioned here to begin with. Regards, --NoonIcarus (talk) 12:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

You already provided those exact same three diffs ([42] [43][44]) on the talk page here. My reply included this text from the WP:LEDE of the article: "The Venezuelan presidential crisis was a political crisis concerning the leadership and who holds the office remained disputed till 5 January 2023.” All three diffs are before 5 January 2023.

The last two diffs ([45][46]) were from TEMPO156 (fka 25stargeneral) who reversed saying “Consensus on the Maduro and Venezuela pages that this can no longer be considered current.” You were already shown that those diffs do not support your insistence—which no one else shares—that the Presidency is still disputed. Yet, here you are showing those same three diffs again to defend your edit-warring (4-Oct-23, 11-Oct-23, 7-Feb-24, 8-Feb-24) post 5 January 2023 as acceptable. It’s more evidence of your inability to work collaboratively, listen to reasonable concerns, and objectively assess the RS. --David Tornheim (talk) 20:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Talk:President of Venezuela#Should we stop claiming the status of the Venezuelan presidency is "disputed"?. --NoonIcarus (talk) 21:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@NoonIcarus: Do you really feel that an RfC from 2021 takes precedence over the changing circumstances described by the WP:RS that I mention above? --David Tornheim (talk) 06:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

@David Tornheim, your support of Grayzone, a deeply problematic media entity that has even gone after Wikipedia, is rather troubling here. Could you explain your position here? Allan Nonymous (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

i do not wish to become involved in this thread even in the slightest but David supported the deprecation of Grayzone; evidently he does not support the site itself. sawyer * he/they * talk 01:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

He supported "Option 1 or 2", which suggests we was in favor of keeping it as a source and furthermore says: "Those raised eyebrows are the result of Blumenthal and his writers at Grayzone telling uncomfortable truths that need to be told." So I'm pretty sure he wasn't exactly supportive of the effort (unless I missed something somewhere else?) Allan Nonymous (talk) 01:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I misread the comment -  Self-trout. Ignore me! sawyer * he/they * talk 01:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban on Latin American politics Noonicarus' editing is, in large part, political activism. Noonicarus' is here purely to ensure that articles on Latin American topics have an anti-socialist bias in general, and an anti-Venezuelan-regime bias in particular. While these opinions are perfectly acceptable, in my view, their editing on this topic runs foul of WP:NOTHERE. All editors, including myself, have political biases, but I am 100% sure that Noonicarus views their contribution to wikipedia as part of the struggle against the Venezuelan regime.

They have explicitly declared that they believe "mainstream news sources" to be superior to academic scholarship, which is the opposite to our actual policy. For example, they recently spent a long time arguing against the inclusion in the text of the term "massacre" (used by many academic sources) to describe the killing of thousands of civilians by Venezuelan security forces in 1989. Their justification was that some Venezuelan news sources do not use the term. They have also dedicated a massive amount of time to attempting to enforce WP:VENRS, which is an attempt to exclude any news sources from Venezuela which do not have a pro-opposition bias. Boynamedsue (talk) 20:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with all of your observations. Since resuming editing on 2/6/24, I have seen this troubling behavior in the articles you mention while it was happening (as well as back in 2019-2020), even if I did not comment on it.--David Tornheim (talk) 20:46, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Context here Talk:Caracazo#POV tag and here Talk:Caracazo#Sources. --NoonIcarus (talk) 23:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

NoonIcarus is well within his rights to enforce WP:VENRS, it is a Wikipedia standard policy and should not be characterized as "an attempt to exclude any news sources from Venezuela which do not have a pro-opposition bias." Frankly, I find that choice of characterization very concerning. Allan Nonymous (talk) 01:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

it is a Wikipedia standard policy. WP:VENRS is not a WP:POLICY. It is just an essay documenting the WikiProject Venezuela local consensus on those sources. That is useful, and I think the fix there if the list is wrong is to talk it out on the VENRS talk page and then update VENRS. But let's be careful of the terminology we use. VENRS is definitely not a Wikipedia policy. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban I have many South American election articles on my watchlist and I have regularly seen NoonIcarus making POV edits over a period of several years, mostly to Venezuelan articles, but occasionally to other articles where there is a prominent leftist candidate/party. This has often involved selectively removing information that is inconvenient to their POV with somewhat dubious reasons (which is the original complaint here). Frankly I'm amazed they have lasted this long on Wikipedia given their long history of POV-pushing. Number 57 00:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  Frankly, this sounds like a case of everybody's POVs bleeding into the way they see other people's edits. Allan Nonymous (talk) 01:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN per my previous comments. It's very clear NoonIcarus needs something to restrain their blatant NPOV editing. JML1148 ^{(talk | contribs)} 05:41, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  I assume you mean "POV-pushing" editing, because "blatant NPOV" editing would imply he was doing a blatantly good job. Allan Nonymous (talk) 01:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN at the absolute minimum with the information provided by David Tornheim. There's no more rope here. – The Grid (talk) 16:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as target. WMrapids accused me of intentionally ignoring content. The diffs that I provided not only show my attention to the sources, but in many cases asking for even further information (1 2 3 4). These charges against editors that have contested their changes aren't new (1 2 3 4 5), and the archived ANI complaints show this has been a long standing and unanswered issue (1, 2, 3). WMrapids' bludgeoning has driven active participants from the Wikiproject Venezuela away (1, 2, 3, of which I'm apparently the last one remaining) and the community shouldn't forget either about the excessive RfCs (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) that exhausted unrelated contributors (1 2 3 4). A TBAN won't solve the underlying issues nor provide an answer to previous complaints. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  Responding to your claims of being a target, it is ridiculous as it is plain to see in the responses above that multiple users have had issues with your editing behavior across the project. It appears that your edits have a POV bias towards maintaining the positive image of the Venezuelan government following the signing of the Puntofijo Pact (while I have seen a similar description occasionally in sources, you frequently describe it as the "democratic period"[47][48] or similar) and discounting human rights abuses performed by the "democratic" government ([49], [50], [51], [52]) while overtly promoting a negative image of the government following the Bolivarian Revolution. This is even more clear with your repeated dismissal of academic sources, minimizing them as "opinions" for the Puntofijo Pact article, something already mentioned above by @Boynamedsue:.

  Further, while reviewing your edits some more, I even found another "failed verification" edit from 2022 performed by you that was inaccurate; you removed "President Maduro denied the allegations, saying torture had not occurred in Venezuela since Hugo Chávez became president" when the Reuters article clearly states "MADURO DENIES TORTURE ... The president says torture ended in Venezuela with the arrival of President Hugo Chavez, his socialist predecessor and mentor, in 1999. 'Commander Chavez never gave the order to torture anyone. We came from that school of thought,' Maduro said." Such repetitive behavior of participating in (using the description of @JCW555:) "'failed verification' lies" over years raises questions of whether an even more severe ban from editing is justified.

  Regarding the further boomerang attempts, I learned from my mistakes with feedback from other users, which I have accepted, especially regarding RfCs (which were mainly opened due to stonewalling from NoonIcarus). As for other users not participating, Venezuelan politics are very contentious and are obviously exhausting to edit about (I feel it, trust me), so of course users will come and go. Other WikiProject Venezuela members are still clearly active and choose not to participate in the articles that you are interested in, which is their own decision, but if there were an issue with my behavior in particular, they could have raised concerns on my talk page or on this very noticeboard. So, exaggerating and saying "I'm apparently the last one remaining" shows how you view yourself as making some sort of last stand, which is further evidence that you are engaged in activist edits to right great wrongs and clearly demonstrates that you are not here to build an encyclopedia.

  After seeing the further deflection, your continued editing behavior that has not improved over years of warnings (especially after the ANI raised by @David Tornheim: in 2020) and the additional "failed verification" edit mentioned above that occurred years ago raises the question; is a permanent ban for NoonIcarus more appropriate? WMrapids (talk) 06:27, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

[53] ([54] and [55][56][57], see response above). --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:26, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

No, a permanent ban is certainly not appropriate, and even a topic ban is marginal. This whole things seems to be a rather roundabout way of you saying you disagree with NoonIcarus about what constitutes NPOV. The best thing to do would be to talk about your differences with respect to what you think NPOV is on these articles in some section of WikiProject Venezuela and come to an NPOV consensus there. Allan Nonymous (talk) 04:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• I see that once again, the sheer volume of text we've produced deters uninvolved people from reading it, and I hope that any further contributions from involved people are both (1) absolutely necessary and (2) very succinct indeed.—S Marshall T/C 17:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I have a question here. Would it be a good idea to call in other editors of WikiProject Venezuela to get a second opinion on these charges. I'd like to get people who know a lot about the subject to comment, and I feel we're missing a significant portion of the community here who might know a lot about the topic, but at the same time, I don't want to accidentally WP:CANVAS. Allan Nonymous (talk) 14:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Allan Nonymous: NoonIcarus did this in a former ANI and some saw that as inappropriate and borderline canvassing, so we should avoid doing this again. It is also better that we have users independent of the topic who can make their decision solely based on reviewing behavior and edits. WMrapids (talk) 20:27, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban I'm involved to the extent that I am a participant to an open AfD discussion initiated by VMRapids on an article created by NoonIcarus, otherwise, to the best of my memory, prior to that AfD, I had not edited articles related to Venezuelan politics. (Subsequent to participation in that AfD I made some edits to a US thinktank cited in the discussion). The key question here is whether there is a pattern of POV editing favourable to the Venezuelan opposition being masked by claims over source veracity. As the Venezuelan government seeks to delegitimise the opposition because of its so-called "foreigness" or so-called "terrorism", it is understandable that it will be contentious the extent to which the opposition is depicted as lacking endogeneity or engages in actions which may be deemed criminal. Nevertheless, with the evidence presented as it has been, the approriate response would not be to (a) throw accusations back at the filer and (b) to relitigate every edit, but rather to present evidence that one's editing is NPOV via a pattern of equal concern with the veracity of all sourcing in the subject area, not just the veractiy of sourcing which suits the editor's POV. Yet, the attempts to do this show a pattern of edits which reinforce negative aspects of the government or people associated with it and favourable aspects of the opposition. There is a consistent pattern of POV editing in the topic area. There does not appear to be any substantial reflection of a even a single mistake made or a point in time where the editor could have approached issues differently (reducing this to a "technical" issue of incorrect tagging avoids the core issue). FWIW, I think it is reasonable that the community draws VMRapids' attention to a lack of precision regarding their citations and a requirement for pinpoint referencing when possible (ie books, journal articles), especially given many elements of this are broadly wihtin a contentious topic area (post-1992 US politics). Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 23:22, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support topic ban, stonewalling, general combativeness, POV issues, etc. Lavalizard101 (talk) 11:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  I understand that this is a contentious issue, but I feel a topic is excessive and would probably not solve the underlying problem (POV dispute). NoonIcarus has not always been the most non-disruptive editor, but seeking a topic ban seems excessive. Allan Nonymous (talk) 13:33, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• STRONGLY Oppose topic ban, while I personally agree that NoonIcarus seems to not have edited in the most consensus seeking way he could, it is clear that these are highly opinionated articles where the interpretation of sources is widely disputed. Hence, he seems to be following one interpretation, and WMrapids seems to be following another. As a result, I believe the best approach is for there to be a general discussion about the factual issues at hand and the sources somewhere to resolve this rather than using topic bans. --Allan Nonymous (talk) 21:14, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The problem is the consistent rejection of sources which disagree with them, to the point where they edit with an inverted hierarchy of sources: Noonicarus specifically states that academic journals are inferior to Venezuelan news sources.

They have also carefully curated a list of Venezuelan news (WP:VENRS) sources which excludes any source deemed to have pro-regime bias, but not sources containing pro-opposition bias, and frequently referred to it to support their arguments. They have shown no self-awareness or contrition here, no desire to change their editing style. Due to their prolific editing, they are, in effect, a one-user article-biasing machine.Boynamedsue (talk) 07:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

This is not true. Unreliable anti-government listed in WP:VENRS include but are not limited to El American, Factores de Poder and Periodista Digital. You can see an example of me disputing said sources while citing WP:VENRS at Pablo Kleinman, for instance: [58][59][60] At any rate, WP:VENRS currently prioritizes descriptions from Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, accepting the community's wider consensus. You can likewise see me recommending academic sources here: Talk:Caracazo#Sources. --NoonIcarus (talk) 11:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

If you think that's an issue take that up with WP:VENRS. He's within his rights to enforce a Wikipedia policy. Allan Nonymous (talk) 13:25, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:VENRS is not a wikipedia policy, it is an essay written largely by Noonicarus.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Well, in that case, an RfC concerning WP:VENRS might be a good idea. I think it would be greatly beneficial to get a consensus reliable sources list here given the issue. Allan Nonymous (talk) 16:35, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support tban as even the more "defensible" uses of failed Verification often seem a somewhat inappropriate and as it does seem like a pattern of POV pushing. Simonm223 (talk) 13:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  I think that NoonIcarus is largely editing in good faith here, and only about half (3/8, from sources cited as concerning by WMRapids) of his most troubling edits were deemed inappropriate. A warning and or 1RR for NoonIcarus seems more appropriate. Allan Nonymous (talk) 14:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

FYI. I engaged in a brief discussion with Allan Nonymous about the numerous posts at this WP:AN/I here (permalink) --David Tornheim (talk) 16:01, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for adding this here! Is there a way you make sure to include the whole page in your link, just in case things things change there in the future? Allan Nonymous (talk) 16:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, that provides additional context which reinforces my support for the tban as the most appropriate remedy. Simonm223 (talk) 16:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban: I guess I can't say I'm an uninvolved editor, as WMRapids cites me as the first one to bring to attention NoonIcarus' dubious removal of sourced content and NoonIcarus and I had many past debates over my bias concerns. It's been my long-held observation that NoonIcarus has been rewriting articles like 2002 Venezuelan coup attempt to push an anti-government narrative using more subtle tactics like overweighting anti-government content/sources, using selective attribution to portray pro-government views as biased opinions (while anti-government views are portrayed as fact), as well as the at-issue tendency to challenge and remove ideologically-inconvenient sourcing and info on, to be generous, thin grounds. I'm not gonna lie though—it's been cleverly done and I burnt out trying to fight it, hence my lack of involvement in the current debates. I don't vote this way lightly, as NoonIcarus has always been cordial and willing to discuss things, and I certainly don't blame anyone for hating the Venezuelan government. But it seems I'm not the only one alarmed by NoonIcarus' ideological rewriting, and if it's spreading to articles across the entire topic of Latin American politics, I would say it's finally time to stop this. Mbinebri (talk) 16:04, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  This is a really compelling argument for a TBAN, and frankly, I share your concerns here. I think it's clear that NoonIcarus should consider making changes to his editing strategy, especially given that this has been raised as an issue before. For now, at least, I still feel that a TBAN is going too far, but these concerns will need to be addressed one way or another. Allan Nonymous (talk) 16:44, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  You've made your vehement opposition to a tban very clear by now. But the thing is I remember run-ins with NoonIcarus under their prior handle going back years and it was, honestly, the exact same pattern. They should seriously consider finding some other area of the project to work on where they can operate more collaboratively and I doubt they will without some compulsion. Simonm223 (talk) 16:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Personally, the arguments made here have, at least, reduced the intensity of my opposition here. Allan Nonymous (talk) 17:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mbinebri: This really chimes with me, Noonicarus is not here to annoy or troll anybody, and the origin of their bias is understandable. However, the volume of their edits and the lengths they go to in defending them means that very few users have the energy to confront them consistently. Overall this is leading to a bias problem spread throughout our Venezuelan politics articles.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you guys that the volume of the edits made and the aggressive reverts without seeking community consensus are a real concern. If anything this AN/I has taught me the importance of seeking consensus. NoonIcarus, is clearly falling short here often, and I feel a bit of understandable sympathy here (you should see the numbers I used to pull on old articles when I was younger, not my proudest work). At the same time, it is my opinion that NPOV is reached by taking the collective voices and perspectives of a wide variety of editors. My concern with a TBAN is, if NoonIcarus leaves, as a major contributor, could lead to a disproportionate under representation of his views among those who edit Venezuelan articles, leading to a worse WP:BALANCE overall, even if less edits are made disruptively by the remaining members. If there is evidence this will not be issue, I am more than willing to further reduce my opposition to a TBAN (as I have already done to some degree). This, I think cuts to the core of my concern here. Allan Nonymous (talk) 17:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Allan Nonymous: I respect your sentiment and thought the same thing during my initial edits with NoonIcarus. They are fairly knowledgeable about such topics, but it depends on how you use such knowledge. It is important for us all to recognize that we are not irreplaceable and our misbehavior on the project does have consequences. I've sincerely tried many things to avoid conflict with NoonIcarus (including this recommendation, though it returned to edit warring), but as you can see from other users, NoonIcarus' editing behavior has been a repetitive problem. While NoonIcarus portrays themself as "the last one remaining", I have shown that WikiProject Venezuela members are still active and others in this discussion (including myself) have shared their own unsympathetic feelings towards the Venezuelan government ([61], [62]). So rest assured, such topics will be okay, and I'm glad that you are using this opportunity to reflect on your own editing as well. WMrapids (talk) 18:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Here's what I feel might be a good compromise? Article Ban on Latam Politics, with a possibility for review at some point. This allows NoonIcarus to participate in the topic through talk page discussions (i.e. to suggest changes in policy/flag sources he may find problematic) without disrupting the articles or leading to edit warring. This might allow NoonIcarus to participate, so long as he remains within consensus as other editors can take up his suggestions. If he shows signs of working well on talk pages, then he can be allowed back on the articles. So far, I have seen him work well in discussions. In addition to this, as a show of good faith, I would hope NoonIcarus would open an RfC with respect to WP:VENRS so that we could make it more clear which were good and bad sources,as well a more general policy with regards to academic versus media sources (in particular, we should be careful when the academic sources about current political events). This would help reduce a lot of future lack of clarity on vague sources and what sources we should be using which has been a major contributor to this. Let me know your thoughts on this people. Allan Nonymous (talk) 20:35, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Allan Nonymous: Users can request to be unblocked on their own talk page. I might have seen custom restrictions before where administrators suggest against blocked users from making a block appeal for a certain period of time (For example: User banned from Latin American political topics: May appeal in one year), but not too sure on this. Wanted to make sure that you know that not all blocks have to be permanent. WMrapids (talk) 01:20, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I am aware here, but my hope is that this will prevent another case of "this user gets TBAN unblocked after a year/two/three" and goes right back to what didn't work before. This sort of approach would might help him and other people find a way to productively work together, instead of just creating a cycle. That's my thought, at least. Allan Nonymous (talk) 02:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

That's why a topic ban is the right solution and your "compromise" won't work--the behavior extends to talk pages and the disruption would continue there. If NoonIcarus is going to learn proper editing behavior, they need to steer clear of politics.--David Tornheim (talk) 02:41, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Indefinite block for NoonIcarus

• Support indef - per WMRapids’ opening statements and the statements of JML1148, Simonm223, User:Number 57 and others here. This is a clear WP:SPA account with numerous examples of bad faith editing, resulting in a previous one year editing restriction. Now this. Enough is enough, I’m calling for an indefinite block. Jusdafax (talk) 23:34, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

TLDR

Disclaimer: I personally am not an "involved party" in the case however, I have interacted with several of the editors in other cases. My position on the topic ban proposed is "STRONGLY oppose".

This is an effort to provide a brief summary of the events leading up to and the part of the vast, wall-of-text dispute titled "NoonIcarus and 'Failed verification'" in an attempt to make it easier for other users whose eyes may glaze over at the sight of so many words, inspired by the suggestion of S Marshall.

The dispute here starts with a complaint from WMrapids concerning NoonIcarus removing a variety of citations and associated text using the tag "failed verification". Of these, NoonIcarus is a confirmed Spanish speaker and member of Wikimedia Venezuela, WMrapids is a member of English Wikipedia's Peru project. This notable here as the articles the two seem to primarlily edit concern latin american history, mostly, Venezuela. After consulting with members of the Wikipedia discord concernin the best editing practices, it is clear that this is generally considered acceptable within the confines of Wikipedia. Furthermore, in articles for controversial topics, it is considered standard practice (better to say nothing than something controversial). However, it quickly became clear that issue involved was not merely the use of "failed verification" efforts but whether these efforts systematically contributed to a POV. Some of the edits appeared more than defensible, others were significantly more dubious and it may have been possible NoonIcarus was removing sources that were in fact verifiable. From there, debate escalated to a wider debate around whether NoonIcarus' editing approach was approrpiate for the topic, particular concerns were raised about edit warring. A possible mitigating factor was raised that, if WMrapids was making unsourced edits, these may have been partially justifiable. There was no general total community consensus about the veracity of the allegations, but it does seem that at least some of the edits were to actually verifiable content. After this, NoonIcarus was given an opportunity to respond to the complaint. [This is Part 1 of a Multi-Part series, more to follow.] Allan Nonymous (talk) 22:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

NoonIcarus provided a report responding to the allegations made. The report was not directly responded to, but discussions on the original complaint did continue afterwards. Soon after, WMrapids, immediately made a request for a topic ban on NoonIcarus concerning Latin American political articles. This was immediately good-faith rejected (and the request was later voluntarily withdrawn) on the grounds that a complaint filer cannot be the one to initiate such action. Another user made supported the request which was then considered the initial request. Tensions at this point were high. NoonIcarus' response to this topic ban attacked WMrapids, claiming the user was a toxic influence on the English language Wikipedia's Venezuela project, and that additionally, a series of aggressive rolling RfCs he had made against existing policies on articles was "exhausting and demoralizing" members of the Wikipedia Venezuela project, as part of an effort to support his agenda. WMrapids and some other involved editors countered these claims with claims he was selectively ignoring evidence that went counter to positions amenable to his own agenda. [This is Part 2 of a Multi-Part series, more to follow.] Allan Nonymous (talk) 22:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: Just to mention that I'd be happy to answer any related questions. I don't want to cram this thread any further, but it could really benefit from clarification to non-involved editors, so they could be broken into sections or collapsed. WMrapids should be given the same courtesy as an involved user, as they probably and understandably will disagree with some of my replies. I'll provide an answer to the POV pushing accusations as a collapsed hatnote below my first response. --NoonIcarus (talk) 00:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Moved prior comment to correct section. Simonm223 (talk) 13:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Wrong place to put this, this is for discussion and summary, if you want to stake your position on the TBAN, post in that section. Allan Nonymous (talk) 13:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  I really need to stop using the mobile interface. I intended to post there. Simonm223 (talk) 13:51, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Follow up from VPM

Topic ban proposal for Rachel Helps

Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Rwelean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#A personal analysis and proposal

Per the evidence I outlined at this VPM discussion (permanent diff), Rachel Helps, the Wikipedian-in-Residence at Brigham Young University and operator of the above two accounts, has for years engaged in extensive undisclosed WP:COI editing on Wikipedia in collaboration with her employees and professional colleagues. This misconduct falls well short of what is expected of any editor, let alone a paid Wikipedian-in-Residence, and as I have been informed that en.wp has no ability to revoke said position, I propose that Rachel Helps be topic-banned from LDS Church-related topics, broadly construed, which should achieve the same result. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Don't know if this is of any importance, but this sandbox page showed up just recently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GlomorrIDTech/sandbox Seems to have something to do with BYU, not sure if it's important vghfr (✉ Talk) (✏ Contribs) 21:10, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Original page deleted, archive here vghfr (✉ Talk) (✏ Contribs) 23:28, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Pinging editors who participated in the prior discussions per WP:APPNOTE: @ජපස, WhatamIdoing, Horse Eye's Back, Rosguill, JoelleJay, Bon courage, Aquillion, P-Makoto, BilledMammal, FyzixFighter, Levivich, Primefac, Vghfr, David Fuchs, Pigsonthewing, BoyNamedTzu, Fram, Certes, Naraht, Guerillero, and Awilley:

• How anyone can read Rachel Helps (BYU)'s user page (even before recent edits) and say her CoI is "undisclosed " beggars belief. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Please take the time to reread the above post and the linked discussion. If you feel that everything outlined in that analysis is perfectly above-board, may I ask if you have performed comparable edits while a WiR? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  • For example, taking this recent diff into consideration, have you ever created a page for a friend while a WiR, and subsequently edited it after you had co-authored an article together and/or one of you had begun to supervise the other's education programme? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:45, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Now try addressing what I said, rather than some other imagining. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • And don't edit my comments. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
      • My sincerest apologies, I think that was an edit conflict (you added it in a separate edit presumably while I was replying to you). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
        • NP, I've also just had an EC with no notification. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. There seems to be some idea (such as advanced by Andy above) that merely disclosing a COI absolves you of any possible infractions; that is not the case, as the evidence at the VPM discussion amply demonstrates. There's apparent evidence of off-wiki coordination that obfuscates COI editing. I see the concern that there are much worse offenders here, and Helps' self-identification makes picking out the COI edits that much easier... but that doesn't materially change the problem, discussed at length in the wider VPM thread, that Helps and similar editors have materially distorted and overemphasized coverage of LDS topics in ways that are not keeping with due weight. This is probably an issue with a lot of GLAM/WIR stuff, so I'm not surprised Andy is circling the wagons, but this is a pretty egregious example. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 16:40, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  • First you misattribute a view I do not hold to me, then you impugn my integrity. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:57, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
• Overwhelming Support. WP:COI editing is bad enough, but considering that WiR is involved and that the COI violations are related to religion (which is already a subject that requires great care to maintain NPOV), Helps should absolutely be topic banned from LDS articles. vghfr (✉ Talk) (✏ Contribs) 16:48, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

  • And to further comment on this, these violations seem to be contrary to the purpose of WiR, which is for an existing editor to "accept a placement with an institution to facilitate Wikipedia entries related to that institution," not to have an person with existing ties to the institution to "facilitate" Wikipedia articles on their institution

  vghfr (✉ Talk) (✏ Contribs) 16:55, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support, the disregard and disrespect this paid editor has for our COI expectations is staggering. The attitude is not that they should follow best practices, its that anything not explicitly prohibited is permitted and permitted in infinite quantities. An example of this attitude: "Also, if something is "strongly discouraged," it sounds like it's actually still allowed. A rule that can't be enforced is not really a rule."[63] So lets do what we have to do and enforce our community expectations, otherwise people will continue to ignore and disrespect "A rule that can't be enforced" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:52, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment I do see violations of COI policies but they are not an end in themselves and exist to protect the reliability of our content. So, can I get some examples of shoddy content being injected into our articles by Rachel Helps? Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 16:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

  jps wrote in the linked discussion,

  I continue to find poor writing, sourcing, and editorial approaches on page after page dedicated. The cleanup that will be required to recover from this is tremendous ...

  Some diffs are in order? TrangaBellam (talk) 17:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

  I listed diffs in that thread. Happy to list them again, but it may be a bit repetitive. Also, you can check my article space edit history from today as I’ve begun the long process of dealing with the fallout and that history may be illustrative. jps (talk) 18:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Apparently Airship was posting this while I was posting my disagreement with the evidence presented in the other thread. Yes, she seems to have written an article about an (apparently notable) co-author. More than half the evidence presented is about other editors (how dare she help newbies?). There have been previous discussions about her editing, and they've agreed that Wikipedia:Conflict of interest#Wikipedians in residence, reward board applies. She has confirmed that her employer does not choose her topics or pressure her to write certain things. More generally, I think that much of this is based on fear of religious editors. For example: She is accused of – over the course of 18 years and nearly 10,000 edits – writing two (2) articles that some editors (including me) think she might be too close to the subject to do so independently, and that it would have been more appropriate to send through WP:AFC. That's 4% of her article creations. Banning someone for a procedural error in 4% of contributions is not a proportional response. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

You know it should be 100% through AfC right? "you should put new articles through the Articles for Creation (AfC) process instead of creating them directly;" Thats incredibly damning. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't agree that articles she needed to send articles such as Stretch Armstrong (ska band) and List of inmates of Topaz War Relocation Center and Anarchism and Esperanto and Hidden Figures (picture book) through AFC. Can you think of any reason why, e.g., she should consider herself to have a conflict of interest with a Japanese interment camp that was closed before she was born, then do please explain that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:32, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Because she was paid to make them. Thats a direct financial COI. I didn't say she needed to send the articles to AfC, I said she should have sent the articles to AfC. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, a couple of things: the co-author is also a Master's thesis supervisor, which isn't great; as there is precisely one "newbie" named in my analysis (the others being employees, editors with extensive COI history, and a bureaucraat currently at ArbCom for a CoI issue), I would ask you to consider your words more carefully. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

(Redacted). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

A large proportion of our articles on universities and their staff are probably heavily edited by external relations offices and staff of the organisation, but they generally do it very professionally, under the radar. If we nobble this editor, we need, in fairness, to do the same to all those others too. But the articles are often accurate and well-written (because they've been written by someone who actually knows what they're talking about). Apply COI rules with caution lest you end up with an encyclopaedia written entirely by clueless people using out-of-date sources. Remember, most academic/institutional COI editing won't be reported because the person who knows (a) that the University of Somewhere's article is edited mostly by JSomeone, and (b) that the public relations officer happens to be called John Someone, can't actually do anything about it without outing themselves as another staff-member, and DOXing Dr Someone. Elemimele (talk) 18:12, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Isn't this argument the equivalent of saying "If the cops don't have the knowledge and resources to give every single speeder a speeding ticket then nobody should get a speeding ticket"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:19, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

No, it's like saying that if absolutely everyone is speeding down a particular bit of road, then maybe something's wrong with the speed-limit (or the overall approach to its enforcement) and issuing one ticket won't solve the problem. Our COI policy is wildly naive, and particularly good at punishing those who admit their COI rather than those who just deny everything. Elemimele (talk) 20:05, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

But your argument isn't that everyone is speeding, your argument is that most roads have been sped on. Do you really think that "absolutely everyone" is doing egregious undisclosed COI editing? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:12, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

If you happen to see any other paid contributors, grandly titled "Wikipedians-in-Residence" and promoted by the WMF as an example of Wikimedia-public relations, who undermine COI to this extent, give me a ping and I'll certainly !vote to "nobble" them. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Nobble is actually a word, huh. Also, another day, another Primefac LDSuppression — when will it end? El_C 19:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

In fairness he's also been taking action to resolve these COI issues off-wiki, see discussion on his talk page. Levivich (talk) 21:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

She has confirmed that her employer does not choose her topics or pressure her to write certain things.

Contrast this with her COI declarations:

However, curators and other librarians sometimes request that I work on certain pages. ...
One of my students created the page for James Goldberg at the request of a curator, in conjunction with the library acquiring his personal papers. I assigned this to one of my students rather than myself because I know James personally. ...
When I wrote the page for Steven L. Peck and his bibliography at the request of our 21st-century manuscripts curator for my work, I was a fan of his work. When I wrote the page for Steven L. Peck and his bibliography at the request of our 21st-century manuscripts curator for my work, I was a fan of his work. ...
At the request of one of my curator colleagues, I improved the page for Glen Nelson. ...

I am a current patron of the ARCH-HIVE on Patreon. I participate in this community of Mormon artists. Their shows have featured work by artists whose pages I have worked on for work, for example, Matt Page (artist), whose page I created when our 21st-century curator requested that I work on his page after acquiring some of his personal papers. JoelleJay (talk) 19:57, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

People make suggestions for topics; sometimes she agrees. So? People ask me to make edits, too; sometimes I grant their requests, too. I'd bet that if people in your life know you edit Wikipedia, that you also get such requests. That's not a conflict of interest.

I'd also like you to think about what I am a current patron of the ARCH-HIVE on Patreon means. It means she gives money to them, not the other way around. Shall we ban Wikipedia editors who donate to the WMF or one of the affiliates from editing anything in Category:Wikipedia? Shall we tell editors that if they buy Girl Scout cookies, they can't edit Girl Scouts of the USA? Kick all the devs out of the open-source articles? Merely being a minor donor or a minor customer is not automatically a conflict of interest. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Are you just...willfully ignoring all context now? Because this is starting to look like bikesheddy obstructionist nitpicking for the sake of...who knows?

Here we have an employer requesting Helps write WP articles on specific topics chosen for their relevance to that employer, because Helps is officially employed in a WP liaison capacity with that employer. Helps says she fulfills some of these requests. All of this is above-board PAID (but not necessarily COI) editing and is utterly different from your hypothetical of some random person suggesting you write about some topic neither of you has a COI with. It also happens to contradict your claim that Helps says BYU doesn't choose topics for her to write about, which wouldn't actually even be a problem if those topics weren't connected to her or BYU (and I'm not alleging they are!).

Your second paragraph is somehow even more of a strawman. Nowhere in the comment above did I allege Helps has a COI with any of those examples of employer-requested editing, and certainly nowhere did I suggest editors can't edit on things they've ever spent any amount of money on. It's almost like you are replying to some synthesis of my comments in this thread, but I know that can't be true because if you had actually read my one other substantive comment in this ANI discussion you wouldn't have made that ridiculous comparison to Girl Scout Cookies in the first place when it's abundantly clear Helps' COI with ARCH-HIVE goes way beyond simply donating to them on Patreon. JoelleJay (talk) 22:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

JoelleJay my editing experience with WhatamIdoing has been — their Wikipedia editing style comes across as inexplicably argumentative or contrarian on most any topic. I don't recall if they eventually come around or change their mind, such as after somehow ferreting out a truth during a particular confrontation or argument. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 21:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Here we have an employer requesting Helps write WP articles on specific topics chosen for their relevance to that employer:

No, we don't. Here we have colleagues with no authority over her whatsoever, often from unrelated departments, who think they've identified a cool subject for Wikipedia, chosen for their relevance to the colleagues' own interests and activities, and an employer who thinks Wikipedia is cool enough that they let her spend part of her work time making that information freely available to the world. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Are you really suggesting someone whose position is "Coordinator of Wikipedia Initiatives at the Harold B. Lee Library" is being paid to edit in whatever topic areas they want with no expectation from the university that this work ever ought to benefit the university or further the interests of its owner? Or that a BYU employee requesting an article on a former BYU professor after the employee helped procure some of that professor's own works for BYU's collection, might be making this request on behalf of BYU as part of their job?

Do you think, in the above example, that someone serving in an official, Wikipedia-supported expert editing instructor position would believe COI from their extensive personal relationship with the subject is eliminated by assigning that article creation request to their own BYU employees? JoelleJay (talk) 00:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment in response to ping: frankly, I haven't read the mountain of evidence in enough detail to !vote, but I don't think this problem is limited to a single editor. We may need to take a more holistic approach rather than hoping that removing one person will make everything right. Certes (talk) 17:12, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support and agree with Certes above that this is only part of the problem. I became aware of the BYU walled garden of sources, awards, and editors through the Nihonjoe ANI discussion and subsequent Arbcom case. Looking at their edits, I first noticed the problematic editing and undisclosed COI of User:Thmazing, who will warrant an ANI section on their own. But other names which kept popping up where User:P-Makoto, who keeps denying the obvious COI issues, and Rachel Helps (and her other account) and her large number of paid BYU students (who list her as their employer).

When I look at an article like Second Nephi, completely rewritten by these editors over the last few months[64] (apart from P-Makoto and Rachel Helps, I count 3 other paid BYU editors there): the page is expanded, but hardly improved. Claims like "J.N. Washburn, an independent scholar, cites that 199 of 433 verses from Isaiah appear with the same wording and proposes that Joseph Smith used the King James Bible version whenever it was close enough to the original meaning of the plates he was said to be translating and used the new translation when meaning differed" not only treat the "he find some old plates he translated" as truth, but try to claim that "independent" scholars support this, even though Jesse Nile Washburn was a LDS missionary who had studied at BYU before he published his books on Mormonism, so no idea what's "independent" about him. The whole article, just like most articles rewritten by Rachel Helps and her employees, are written from a distinctly in-universe, uncritical perspective.

For some reason she is very reluctant to note her COI on the talk page of these articles, insisting that the declaration on her user page is sufficient. She also takes it upon herself to remove critical tags from the pages, e.g. here or here, or to remove correct[65][66] but unsourced info and revert to equally unsourced info for unclear reasons[67]. A typical edit is something like this, supposedy "more detail for the naturalistic explanation section" but in reality removing two of the four sources and changing the more general claim about the non-religious origin of some Mormon belief to a much more LDS-friendly version. Just some examples from her 100 most recent mainspace edits... Fram (talk) 18:32, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

*Support per Fram's evidence and others. I should note the above mentioned Second Nephi refers to another "independent scholar" (Matthew Nickerson) and then cites an article that appeared in a journal published by BYU. I would also hope that if a ban is enacted, it explicitly covers the Association for Mormon Letters and related topics, including fellow members, per the information provided in the Village Pump thread. Jessintime (talk) 18:47, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm striking my support for this topic ban (you can call me neutral I guess) though I still support the one for Thmazing below. Jessintime (talk) 23:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Support, not because Rachel Helps has undisclosed COI (she discloses BYU and AML on her userpage), but because she helped other editors with undisclosed COI (e.g. BYU, AML) make undisclosed COI edits, and did things like nominate their articles to DYK, or move their articles to mainspace. The diffs are at WP:VPM. I also agree with Certes that this problem is broader and includes the editors who have/had undisclosed COIs, but that doesn't absolve Ms. Helps of her role in what now seems to be an actual conspiracy of AML people to use Wikipedia to promote themselves, their work, and by extension their religion, by using a combination of undisclosed accounts and paid BYU editors. The unfortunate thing is that if everybody affiliated with AML had just disclosed it, there wouldn't really have been a problem... except they would have had to wait for editors without COI to do things like approve drafts, but I don't get why that would have been a problem. Undisclosed COI editing is a problem even if it's good undisclosed COI editing because it undermines trust. It's really quite dangerous to the mission of an encyclopedia anyone can edit: the whole venture rests on the belief that editors will follow "the honor system" and either avoid or be transparent about their COIs. Finally, a note to anyone commenting: If you have or had any connection with AML or BYU, please disclose it. Levivich (talk) 18:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

One of the reasons I still support a full TBAN and not a lesser sanction is that Rachel Helps has been editing longer than I have. And unlike me, she was paid to do it. If she cannot learn in eight years of paid editing what I learned in five years of volunteer editing in my spare time, then I'm not sure there is much hope here. She's not new at this, and this isn't the first time these problems have come up. I'd have more sympathy if she had less experience or if this wasn't a repeat issue. Levivich (talk) 15:40, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

On one hand, I'd support a topic ban on the paid student employees. Certainly going forward that's what I think is best (employees of the BYU WiR should not edit articles related to Mormonism... let them do that on their own time), but then TBANing the WiR should be sufficient to prevent problems with student employees in the future (and per her note below, she is already reassigning them to other topics).

On the other hand, I don't like the idea of sanctioning any of the student employees because they were "just following orders," and if their orders were different, they'd have followed the different orders, so I don't view the student employees as being culpable or even being able to act independently of their supervisor (the WiR), I see them as proxies/meatpuppet accounts except they understandably would think their proxying was OK because it was directed and supervised by a WiR. So I think I come down on the side of giving students a pass for past policy/guideline violations as long as there are clear guardrails for the future. Levivich (talk) 16:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Support with regret. I really wish this could be done differently, but I think things have come to a head now and there may be no way to fix it without this kind of drastic approach. I tried to have a conversation yesterday with Rachel about improving her sourcing guideline, and I think that she is likely trying her best to act in good faith, but she is well past being able to collaborate with those who are going to question the WP:FRINGE nature of the claims that many apologists for the Mormon religion continue to make about their holy books. I could handle that (indeed, we see that sort of issue a lot here) if it was not also coupled with institutional support from Wikipedia as well as BYU in a way that I think was never done properly. If we are going to pay students to edit Wikipedia, they ought to be allowed to edit it freely. BYU students are at a risk in being active here. If I saw one of them make an edit that looked like apostasy, I could report them to their stake or bishop or the school itself and they could be found in violation of the strict honor code and expelled. I don't think we have thought clearly about what that means given the openness of this website and the unusual closed-ness of the BYU system. For the benefit of all involved, it is probably best that this partnership be ended with a clean break. jps (talk) 19:08, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Rachel Helps has now disclosed a massive amount of COI on her user page. Given how extensive and egregious it is, as well as her repeated emphasizing that she uses her personal account to publish articles she feels would be in violation of PAID if published from her BYU account, I get the impression that she still does not understand what it means to have a COI and how that should impact her editing. Initially this put her actions in a slightly better light to me, since it seemed many of these violations were done in mostly good faith and simply weren't recognized by her to be COI (or at least not that big of a COI, which is more of an institutional problem), rather than intentional concealment of edits she knew weren't kosher. I would have been satisfied with a promise to avoid editing or directing others to edit articles where there is even a whiff of apparent COI and an agreement to limit LDS-universe sourcing. However, reading this dissembling exchange she had on her personal account talkpage with an NPPer regarding COI and blatant PROMO for ARCH-HIVE, I have a hard time believing no deceit has occurred:

  Hi Celestina007, first you said that you draftified it because of sourcing issues and notability issues, but now because of promo and possible COI? A little consistency would be nice. I thought about what you said about the page having too much promotional language, and I removed most of the background section. I have an interest in the page (otherwise I wouldn't have written it), but I don't think it's a COI. I don't make any money from the ARCH-HIVE's success, and I have not been paid to write the page.

  This was in Feb 2022, well after she had started writing blog posts and participating in exhibitions for the group, and well after she served on an AML judging committee the same year ARCH-HIVE won an award. This led me to look into some other potential COI edits involving authors she has reviewed for the AML: Dean Hughes, whose wiki page has been edited extensively by Helps' student Skyes(BYU) (66 major edits, 8000+ bytes added, including bibliography entry for the book Helps reviewed); D. J. Butler, to whose bibliography Helps added the book she judged, sourced to an AML announcement by her colleague, and to which Skyes(BYU) added 11 major edits; and Steven L. Peck, 85% of whose page was written by Helps between 2017 and 2023. I'm sure I could go on. Incidentally, pretty much all of these pages have also been edited by Thmazing (AML president) and NihonJoe (ArbCom case)...
  All of this goes well beyond what we could reasonably expect even a novice editor to understand are COI edits, let alone someone in a paid position of authority who is mentoring other paid employees of BYU on how to edit wikipedia articles! Honestly I think ArbCom might be the next place to go given the amount of promotion of minor Mormon contemporary authors by what seems to be a heavily interconnected group of BYU-associated editors with un- or under-declared COIs. JoelleJay (talk) 19:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment I will concede that I had undisclosed COI for editing on my personal account. I believe that NPOV is more important than an undisclosed COI. The more we punish undisclosed and disclosed COI editing, the more we drive COI editing underground. This will happen as long as anonymous editing is allowed on Wikipedia. But what I think is far more important for determining a possible topic ban for myself and my team is the quality of my edits in the topics the ban is aimed at covering. I believe an underlying assumption is that since I work for the BYU Library, I wouldn't say bad things about Mormonism (broadly construed), the LDS Church, or BYU. I have edited on many pages in these topics and many have changed the way I think about the LDS Church and BYU, and not in a good way. Some examples are Battle at Fort Utah, a page I expanded about a one-sided attack on Timpanogos families supported by Brigham Young that lies at the heart of the city of Provo's founding. What about Seventh East Press, a page for an independent student newspaper at BYU, which was banned from being sold on BYU campus primarily because of an interview with Sterling McMurrin where he said that he didn't believe the Book of Mormon to be literally true (which I promoted on DYK)? The fact that Lucinda Lee Dalton requested her sealing to her husband be cancelled and it was revoked posthumously? Ernest L. Wilkinson's spy ring controversy? Dallin H. Oaks's negative evaluation of Nothing Very Important and Other Stories? My own students have said things like "I've summarized stuff I disagree with" (and they have published it as part of their job). Some people have expressed shock that as a professional writer, I'm messing up all the time. Guess what. There's no degree in Wikipedia editing! If you examine my considerable edit history, you are going to find errors! But I believe that on the whole, the work I and my students have done has improved Wikipedia. We have added so much accurate information, cited in-line, to reliable sources. We have helped to make more sources discoverable by summarizing and citing them. Is it that surprising that my years of editing Wikipedia in Mormon Studies have led me to gain some expertise in my field and made me want to study Mormon literature professionally? I've attempted to list all the possible COIs I could think of on my user page, and I stand by the NPOV of all of my edits. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. Yes, I'm a paid student editor who works on LDS topics. But that doesn't mean that I have been out to present a construed vision of Mormonism. When people have pointed out a lack of neutral point of view (which was wholly unintentional on my part and consisted of a few words) I have made an effort to fix it and invited them to help me. Other than that, I'm not seeing where there is a lack of this neutral point of view. Is summarizing what other people say about Mormon topics considered a violation of NPOV? Because I didn't think it was. If you're worried about the Mormon authors, keep in mind I have also used sources from Elizabeth Fenton (not a Mormon), John Christopher Thomas (a man who follows the Pentecostal tradition), and Fatimah Salleh (a reverend). Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 22:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Getting a bit off-topic. ජපස seems OK with hatting this. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:02, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The concern here is you are putting yourself at risk by contributing here. You may feel that you run no risk of falling out of favor with your bishop, but if that happened because of your attempt to include content that was critical of your church, ‘’you could be expelled’’. This is what your school says in its policies. Now, maybe they don’t enforce those policies anymore, but I can only go by what I read of BYU’s rules. And according to those rules, it’s not really safe for you to try to accommodate the radically open ideology of this website as you work for and are enrolled in a school which has an entirely different ideological commitment. jps (talk) 22:45, 13 March 2024 (UTC) Have you seen anything in my edits that is harmful to the LDS Church or to anyone else? Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 22:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC) You don’t seem to be understanding my point. It doesn’t matter what I have or haven’t seen in your edits. You are free at this website inasmuch it is an Open Culture Movement website to explore, edit, study, and expand your horizons to whatever extent you would like. We encourage that on principle. Normally, I would welcome such engagement. But here is the thing: you are employed by BYU to write here. You are also a student. My commitment to radical openness then is now necessarily tempered by my greater concern for your well-being as a student and student worker because, frankly, that is far more important than the openness of this website. And if your school had a commitment to academic freedom, free speech, and so forth, there would be no tension there. But the fact remains that BYU has really strict policies. To be clear: You aren’t doing anything wrong! But we can’t stop your school from mistreating you on the basis of what I would considered normal activity at this website. If you came out tomorrow as a promiscuous anti-Mormon atheist (and I’m not saying you will… just go with the hypothetical) then while we would welcome you, suddenly you find yourself without support from the institution you rely on. And so we’re stuck. I think we can’t operate according to our own community rules because doing so puts you at risk and we need to figure out how to fix that. Having you contribute to article space is almost certainly not the right answer. If you had a sandbox where you could offer quotes from sources or apologetics or what have you that would help maintain your ecclesiastical endorsement, then there would be less of a problem. But you are duty bound to maintain a fealty to your church and your faith which this website should not be challenging because it can cause you problems. jps (talk) 23:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC) Acknowledging my disclosed past connection to BYU, I can't help but think it's a little disingenuous, howsoever inadvertently, to frame this as humanitarian concern for Heidi Pusey (BYU) and kind of paternalistic to insist that she can't assess for herself what her situation at BYU is like and whether there's any risk of falling out of favor with your bishop, to use your words. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 00:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC) The concern is not whether she made the correct or incorrect assessment. I trust that she knows what she is doing. I'm assessing the entirety of the situation for myself as a member of this community. My goal generally (it has nothing to do with this user specifically) is to make sure that all people are taken care of as best they can be. I see the following situation: (1) BYU has rules (2) this website has rules (3) those rules are by my reading at fundamental odds. I think that the best thing we can do given that, as a website community, and given that I have absolutely zero sway over BYU, is to prevent a situation where students acting as compelled editors (that's part of what getting paid to edit does, as fun as I find it to be since I do it for free) edit content that is directly relevant to those rules. It's that simple. Because let's say there is no risk of her running afoul of such. Then that is equally a problem in my mind. This stamps out the very radical openness we are trying to promote and makes me worried that the BYU student who is in the closet about their scholarship that identifies problems with the Book of Mormon would not and should not take this job. This can of worms is ugly and it gets worse the more you look at it. jps (talk) 00:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC) 1. I am not in the closet about my scholarship and do not appreciate such an assumption. 2. I do not appreciate you attacking my identity and saying I could hypothetically become a "promiscuous anti-Mormon atheist." Such an assumption is unfounded and unacceptable. I will not tolerate it. 3. I will no longer reply in this thread. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 00:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC) Y'all don't see the problem here? This is an editor who can't follow a hypothetical and she's being paid to write about Mormon exegesis. jps (talk) 00:51, 14 March 2024 (UTC) The concern here is you are putting yourself at risk by contributing here. I do not think it is our place to try to sanction or remove adult editors from our community because we as a third party judge they are taking on too much risk by editing here. I think this argument is very weak. This is an ANI thread about sanctions. We should stick to discussing and sanctioning actual, demonstrable misconduct. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC) They are at a risk because of our toleration of the situation of paid editing through this program. Shut the program down and it is no longer a risk. The misconduct was done by her boss. I support sanctioning the boss. I'm not sure what to do about the student, so sure, close this whole commentary as off-topic. jps (talk) 00:51, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support The evidence seems to be quite clear. scope_creep^Talk 22:54, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support based on Rachel Helps' own defense above. The more we punish undisclosed and disclosed COI editing, the more we drive COI editing underground is not a good reason to allow blatant COI editing. I'm okay with driving it even further underground. Toughpigs (talk) 02:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: The COI editing stuff was not my main concern (I'm far more worried about the paid editing junket), but I just thought I'd let the watchers here know that I tagged an article [68] just now. It's a puff-piece pure and simple and the evidence for COI is pretty straightforward if y'all have been paying attention to these posts. I agree, this needs to be stopped. I'm pretty close to striking my "with regret" which gives me regret. jps (talk) 02:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Honestly, this entire situation shows that we need to take a step back and take a look at possibly changing policy to prevent this from happening again. vghfr (✉ Talk) (✏ Contribs) 02:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

This may need to be kicked to Arbcom. It involves at my last count at least 5 editors not even counting the students. Oh dear. jps (talk) 02:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: I worry we're conflating separate issues.

1) Rachel Helps' involvement with articles about AML, ARCH-HIVE, and Michael Austin strikes me as a clear COI issue and a breach of community trust.

2) There's a broader question around how to interpret COI when it comes to BYU and the LDS church. I think the COI argument here is plausible, but much less clear cut than #1. I do worry about creating a chilling effect for e.g. an Oxford professor citing a colleague who was published by Oxford University Press, or a math teacher at a Catholic school editing a page on the Trinity. If we do need to consider this COI, I think we should take our time and define the problem narrowly and precisely.

3) There are NPOV and sourcing concerns around some Book of Mormon articles. I'm skeptical that a topic ban will improve this, or that the articles are worse for BYU editors' involvement. Second Nephi and Ammonihah are in much better shape than, say, Jason, a vital article mostly sourced to Euripides and Ovid. The BYU team seems to take these concerns seriously and make good faith efforts to include non-LDS sources. If individual articles aren't notable, we can delete them.

4) Finally, there's a concern about implicitly endorsing BYU policies and potential risks to BYU's editors. I agree with P-Makoto that this feels paternalistic, and I don't think this standard is workable. Even if we assume the worst of BYU, should we shut down any attempts to engage editors in China, in case someone writes something that upsets the CCP?

I would support a sanction that's more narrowly tailored, e.g. blocking Rachel Helps from edits around AML and BYU faculty, while still letting her write about scripture and history. It seems excessive to block her from absolutely anything LDS related (e.g. Battle at Fort Utah) or to shut the program down.

(In case there are any concerns: I've never met any of the editors involved, I've never attended, worked for, or even visited BYU, I learned what AML was earlier this afternoon, and I've never been a member of the church). Ghosts of Europa (talk) 03:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy Break (1)

• Oppose Topic bans should not be punitive and are reserved for editors that engage in disruptive behavior within that topic area. I just don't see the hallmarks of disruptive editing that I've encountered in other situations, particularly in physics-related topics, that did result in topic bans. I do see very poor judgement when editing with both disclosed and undisclosed COI and operating with the gray zone caused by inconsistence guidance in the COI guidelines (Gray zone example, in one part COI editor should identify in all three places, in another it says that editors may due it in one of three places - an editor who tried to push the former with regards to Rachel was told by multiple admins that their interpretation was more expansive the intended COI guideline). I do find her response to HEB regarding this gray zone very troubling, but not disruptive. This should have been raised at COIN, prior to being elevated to ANI. I would note that Rachel editing and her WiR function have been brought up there before which did not end with sanctions, so it seems like bringing the dispute here has the appearance of forum shopping - might not be given new information since that discussion. I also disagree with the insinuation that because her COI is with BYU, she is incapable of editing in an NPOV manner when it comes to the LDS Church under some kind of threat, spoken or unspoken, from the religious leaders and therefore inherently disruptive if she edits in that topic. BYU teaches evolution in its biology classes, teaches the standard 4.5 billion year age for the earth in its geology classes, teaches a human history/prehistory that does not kowtow to Biblical or Book of Mormon teachings in its anthropology and archaeology classes, and so on - so the argument that the BYU employment means she has to edit inline with church doctrine is based on faulty assumptions and extrapolations. --FyzixFighter (talk) 03:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  If Microsoft hired people to create articles about its products, and these editors disclosed they were paid editors but in some cases promoted some of these products while working with other Microsoft employees who edited with undisclosed COI, Wikipedia would siteban all of them with little discussion. It doesn't matter if Microsoft doesn't tell the editors exactly what to edit, or tells them explicitly to edit in accordance with Wikipedia policies. It doesn't matter if the articles about Microsoft products are totally NPOV and policy-compliant. Advertisement is advertisement, and this is advertisement. It doesn't matter if it's the LDS Church or Microsoft, it doesn't matter if it's articles about characters in the Book of Mormon or articles about characters in Microsoft video games. In both cases, it's just paying people to raise the profile of their products and their brand on Wikipedia. A TBAN from promoting the product seems actually lenient to me, like the minimum preventative measure Wikipedia should take in this situation, not punitive at all. Levivich (talk) 04:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  It doesn't matter if the articles about Microsoft products are totally NPOV and policy-compliant. Sounds like you're saying that it doesn't matter the quality of the edits, if the motivation for making the edits is wrong. Is this correct? Some might disagree with that statement, preferring to accept high quality edits regardless of motivation. Although maybe we should discuss this more at WT:COI rather than here. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  No, not the motivation for making the edits, and no, this is the right place, this is about whether this proposed TBAN is preventative or not. I'm saying "it doesn't matter" in several different ways, but the motivation of the editor isn't one of them, who knows or cares about people's motivations, since we have no way of determining an editor's motivations.

  If an edit violates one rule, it doesn't matter that it doesn't violate another rule. If an edit violates COI or PAID, it doesn't matter that it doesn't violate V or NPOV. If an edit violates NPOV, it doesn't matter that it doesn't violate V or COI or PAID. If V or NPOV editing excused COI or PAID editing then we can just mark those pages historical, what's the point of even reading them?

  It also doesn't matter because a policy-compliant, high-quality Wikipedia article is good advertising. A TFA is the highest-quality level of article that Wikipedia offers, and also the highest-quality advertising placement. If someone is trying to promote themselves or something on Wikipedia, a high-quality article is going to be better than a low-quality one, and while a puffery article might be the best, an NPOV article is still better than no article. Companies/people/churches/other orgs will pay to have policy-compliant articles created about themselves or their products because it's good advertising, it's good for their reputation, which is good for business and the bottom line. It's about $$$.

  And just to belabor that point a little bit, think about it: how much are they paying per article? Hundreds of dollars? A thousand or a few thousand? Where else can you get guaranteed top-of-Google SEO placement for any search term for that cheap? And it's a one-time cost when they pay a paid editor to put it on Wikipedia, whereas ordinarily SEO of that quality is a monthly payment not a one-time. I think paid editors are like 90% cheaper than traditional SEO. Damn, I should advertise :-P

  But if you step back, by piggybacking on volunteer labor, organizations can use paid editing to save themselves a ton of money on internet advertising while breaking no Wikipedia rules (if done properly). If we were smart we'd bypass paid editing and the WMF and just set up an actual job board on Wikipedia and have some kind of group Patreon account. Instead of making donations to the WMF, buyers could just pay for articles about whatever they want, and editors can get paid for writing articles, like $50 for a stub, maybe $500 for a GA, $1000 for an FA. Channel it all into an official channel and kinda kill two birds with one stone, I say. (And I'd be happy to administer it all for a reasonable management fee.)

  So anyone who wants to invest their marketing $ in paid editing is actually free to do that, as long as the editors disclose and otherwise abide by the rules. But in this case, we have undisclosed COI and PAID editing by a number of people, and in the situation where an organization's marketing $'s are going not just to policy-compliant editing, but also to non-policy-compliant editing, then it seems like barring the non-policy-compliant editors from editing about the organization, broadly construed, is appropriate.

  As an aside, it also bothers me that paid undergraduates are involved. Teaching the wrong lesson here. Levivich (talk) 05:50, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Do you have these concerns about GLAM in general? Suppose the British Museum pays me to write about obscure parts of their collection. This will be great SEO and may encourage people to visit, and even though the museum is free, many visitors will probably make a donation. If I use the best available scholarship and teach millions of people for free, and the museum gets donations, would you object? Ghosts of Europa (talk) 07:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  GLAM walks a fine line, no question. That's why it's extra important that people who participate in that sort of program as leaders be extra careful to keep their noses clean and think very carefully about the implications of their actions and activities, as far as I'm concerned. The alternative can easily devolve into this mess. jps (talk) 11:09, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Ghosts of Europa: I don't know much about GLAM, but yes, same concerns, no reason to treat galleries, libraries, archives, and museums, as any different from other organizations (companies, non-profits, churches). In your hypothetical, you'd still be hired to promote the museum's product (their collection), no different from Microsoft paying someone to promote one of their products. Levivich (talk) 16:26, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  The problem with COI-tainted editing is that it given us an encyclopedia (and community) different to what we would have with if unconflicted editors were at work. It skews the process. It is "dirt in the gauge" as WP:COI used to mention. In practical terms we seem to have ended up with Wikipedia giving disproportionate/undue and often credulous coverage to this religion. The argument that "COI doesn't matter if the edits are good" would justify lifting restrictions on WP:PAID editing (and is often delpoyed by paid editors). Bon courage (talk) 05:57, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  If it truly is a prescriptive ban, intended to enforce adherence to COI guidelines, then the TBAN should be narrowly applied to where she has actual COI, as defined by those COI guidelines. In this case, the COI is BYU and AML. I am not convinced that it extends to the LDS Church or LDS topics generally. She is a BYU employee, not an LDS Church employee. BYU employees can and do say things that contradicts the church, and the same is true for Rachel - some examples that immediately come to mind are her edits that do make look the church look good (see her list above) and even her use of "LDS Church", which indicate the arguments that her terms of employment affect LDS-related topics generally are easily disproven. --FyzixFighter (talk) 12:49, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  That's like saying an Altria employee only has a narrow COI to the company, and is free to write about the Health effects of tobacco! If you're paid to write a load of stuff about Mormons, the COI problem resides in doing just that. Bon courage (talk) 13:12, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  She is a BYU employee, not an LDS Church employee. BYU employees can and do say things that contradicts the church

  This is completely false, as BYU is owned by the LDS Church and its honor code (literally the Church Education System Honor Code, sponsored by the LDS Church) expressly prohibits actions that go against church doctrine:

  As faculty, administration, staff, and students voluntarily commit to conduct their lives in accordance with the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they strive to maintain the highest standards in their personal conduct regarding honor, integrity, morality, and consideration of others. By accepting appointment, continuing in employment, being admitted, or continuing enrollment, each member of the campus communities personally commits to observe the CES Honor Code approved by the Board of Trustees:
  Maintain an Ecclesiastical Endorsement, including striving to deepen faith and maintain gospel standards

  Multiple BYU professors have been fired for supporting--off-campus and strictly in a personal, sometimes even private, capacity--things the LDS church considers against-doctrine[69][70][71][72][73], so there is absolutely reason to believe they would fire a mere student employee for expressing such opinions. JoelleJay (talk) 13:23, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  It is an extrapolation beyond the stated honor code that you quoted to say "principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ" equals "church doctrine". If that were true then all members of the faculty and employees would have to be members of the LDS Church (they aren't), not teach evolution (they do), not teach the big bang (they do), not teach a completely non-theistic abiogenesis and creation of the earth (they do), not teach that human civilization extends way past 4000BC with no mention of Nephites, Lamanites, or Noah's ark (they do), or not use "LDS Church" (they do). Again, it's demonstrably false the claimed level of control over BYU employees in general and specifically in this case. --FyzixFighter (talk) 13:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Please read the original thread, this is discussed in great detail. vghfr (✉ Talk) (✏ Contribs) 13:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  You are conflating the acceptability of BYU profs lecturing on what is the mainstream, secular perspective on those topics, outside the context of the church, and BYU profs opining on what is "true" about those topics in relation to church doctrine. The former is endorsed by BYU, the latter can lead to threat of excommunication.[74] (A professor at a Washington State community college who expected to be excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints over an article he wrote regarding the Book of Mormon has had his disciplinary hearing postponed indefinitely.
  Thomas W. Murphy, chairman of the anthropology department at Edmonds Community College, in Lynnwood, came under scrutiny for an article he wrote for American Apocrypha, an anthology published in 2002 by Signature Books. In the article, he reviews genetic data to refute the Mormon assertion that American Indians are descended from ancient Israelites. ...) [75][76] (An Australian author who wrote that DNA evidence fails to support the ancestral claims outlined in the Book of Mormon has been excommunicated by The Church of Jesus of Christ of Latter-day Saints.) This is also blatantly obvious from the examples I gave above of BYU lecturers' personal opinions on homosexuality and feminism directly leading to their termination of employment. JoelleJay (talk) 14:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  All BYU employees are directly employed by the LDS Church, there is no separation between the two. I'm surprised that someone who primarily edits in the LDS topic area wouldn't know that. Its also a bit odd that you're holding up evolution, age of the earth, Big Bang etc up as ways in which BYU contradicts church teachings when the LDS Church doesn't take a position on evolution and doesn't take a position on the age of the earth or how it/the universe was created beyond a rather wishy washy one. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Note: a query to FyzixFighter about any potential COI elicited this strange response.[77] Bon courage (talk) 13:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thats not terribly surprising, at this point it looks like all of the editors besides FyzixFighter who were harassing anyone who question Rachel Helps (BYU) have disclosed COIs. Its a shame they have chosen to retire rather than face the music but thats their choice. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support If you aren't allowed to be neutral on this topic per terms of employment, you shouldn't be able to edit. Wikipedia has a lot of stuff not related to this to edit. Big Money Threepwood (talk) 04:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose broad topic ban Oh no, don't ban my second-favorite wiki-gnome! Seriously, though, it saddens me to see someone who is so clearly a net-positive getting hauled off to AN/I like this. Though I don't recall collaborating directly with Rachel Helps, we've crossed paths many times over the past several years, and I've always been impressed by her approach to editing and interacting with others here. I've found her to be polite, intelligent, and honest, if perhaps a bit naive. I remember being confused the first time she crossed my watchlist...my knee-jerk reaction was "why is an official BYU employee/representative editing articles about Mormonism"? Then I looked at the substance of her edits...adding sources here, reverting vandalism there, removing copyvios, expanding articles about Mormon women, and refusing to take a stance on controversial issues where she thought she might be influenced by bias. Whenever there was a consensus on something, she would follow that consensus. If she wasn't sure about something, she would ask. I think I remember seeing her report herself to a noticeboard somewhere when another editor continued challenging her on something where she thought she was right but wanted to make sure the broader community thought so too. Look at her response to this. She's not digging in—she's trying to understand and comply with the community's expectations. If you look at her recent edits to User:Rachel Helps (BYU)#Conflict of Interest statements you'll see that she's gone waaay overboard on trying to declare every possible conflict of interest. She's openly admitting fault where she was wrong, and is clearly committed to doing better. I hope the people !voting here and the closing admin will take that into consideration. Oh, and in case it wasn't clear, I'm commenting here as an involved editor. ~Awilley (talk) 04:52, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't get the impression she is trying to understand me or anyone else who is concerned about the sum total of the mess that is Book of Mormon articles. There is absolutely no engagement with the issues at hand and when I tried to explain WP:FRINGE sourcing, the answer came back "yes, we disagree." That's fine, but one of us is being paid to be here and has a ready paid group of students who look to her for editorial guidance, right? You haven't been in conflict with her. If you end up in conflict, do you think the wider context would be a problem? jps (talk) 11:17, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't know that I'd call it "conflict" but I can recall instances where I've disagreed with edits I saw her making. In each case, she immediately stopped what she was doing and listened to my objections. If she wasn't convinced by my argument, she sought a wider consensus. I've never seen her edit against a consensus.

  A few years ago there was a big influx of newbie editors trying to scrub the words "Mormon" and "Mormonism" from the encyclopedia because of recent remarks from the correct LDS president/prophet saying that use of the term was offensive to God and a victory for Satan. (The LDS church has had a long on-again-off-again relationship with the word.) I personally thought it was best to continue using the word on Wikipedia, both to be true to how reliable sources talk about Mormonism, and to be accessible to readers who are only familiar with the common name. But I suddenly found myself in the minority in opposing the changes. I suspect that personally Rachel Helps wanted to follow the command of the LDS president and that her colleagues and possibly employers at BYU were hoping that she could make Wikipedia comply with the church's new style guide. But she didn't. She participated in some discussions about the disagreement, but she didn't push hard for any particular outcome, and she (afaict) has continued to this day to respect and enforce Wikipedia's own style guide that still explicitly allows calling people Mormons, probably to the chagrin of church leadership.

  Anyway, my point is that as far as disagreements go, Rachel Helps is one of the more pleasant people I've ever disagreed with. I wish more Wikipedians were like her in that respect. ~Awilley (talk) 15:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think pleasantness is an issue. There is a common misconception on Wikipedia that COIs are inherently somehow "bad", but in reality the more you do in life the more COIs you accrue. It's only people who sit in their basement all day who don't have any COIs. Bon courage (talk) 15:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  You didn't really answer my question. Here's where I am as of two days ago. This user has stated point blank that she disagrees with my suggestion that explicitly religious/apologetics sources should not be used as source material for Wikipedia if the only sources that have noticed them are likewise religious sources. In the last two days, after going through hundreds of edits at dozens of articles I notice that this is the primary kind of sourcing that her students are inserting into articlespace and they are still active. I get the distinct impression that she will not be directing her students to re-evaluate their sourcing guidelines or engage with me in discussion about this topic. Now, if I had a bunch of students I could employ to check up on all this, maybe that would be an equal footing dispute. But I don't think the idea here is to start a paid editing arms race, is it? jps (talk) 15:32, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, I definitely wasn't trying to dodge a question. I guess my point is that I think Rachel Helps is the kind of person who would voluntarily direct her students to follow whatever policy, guideline, or consensus you pointed her to. I think she could also be convinced by logic alone, but I can't say for sure...people like that seem to be rare these days. I wouldn't be surprised if, to comply with a consensus, she asked her students to nominate their own articles for deletion. That said, I am not really clear on what you mean by religious sources that have been noticed by other religious sources. Are you talking in general about religious academic sources citing each other, or specifically about Mormon academics citing other Mormon academics but without getting cited by non-Mormon religious scholars? (There are probably better forums than AN/I for that discussion.) ~Awilley (talk) 16:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  If you're interested, this discussion that ground to a halt is still on her user talkpage. Feel free to check it out. jps (talk) 17:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  So this whole long thing arose out of a dispute over whether religious sources could be reliable? She wouldn't agree that reliable religious sources needed to be validated by reliable secular sources, or that verifiable information should be omitted entirely when nobody could find a reliable secular source on the subject, so you started a COI discussion at VPM and now we have a topic ban proposal?

  Why didn't you start an RFC over whether information only available in religious sources should be excluded wholesale from all of Wikipedia, instead of trying to get rid of one editor who disagreed with you? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:09, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  That is not what this arose out of. That dispute arose because I asked if she would consider hitting pause on her program and she came back with a set of sourcing guidelines that I found problematic. I asked her to hit pause on the program because I saw widespread issues that I am still working my way through and then noticed that all these students were being organized by one coordinator with what essentially amounted to the blessings of the GLAM/WIR system. jps (talk) 22:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  I want to offer an addendum that since I wrote this comment, Rachel Helps has begun engaging with me on her talkpage. I find this encouraging. I still think on the balance having her and her students move away from LDS topics is a good idea, but there is discussion happening and as long as that is happening there is hope. jps (talk) 23:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Awilley: did you see Levivich's request "If you have or had any connection with AML or BYU, please disclose it."? We know you're involved and not a neutral admin, but do you have any conflicts of interest you should be disclosing? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:57, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  That's kind of a weird litmus test for participating in an AN/I thread. I'd like to think that people should be judged based on the strength of their arguments rather than assumptions about their motivation. But if you insist, I attended BYU from about 2006-2012. I would have no idea what AML was if I hadn't just read the thread on village pump. To my knowledge I don't know and have never met any of the people in this or the other thread IRL, though it's possible we crossed paths without my realizing it. ~Awilley (talk) 15:58, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Its not weird if its an AN/I thread about undisclosed BYU related editing... Ok, I'm planning to open a new subsection about canvassing in a minute. Specifically regarding you and BoyNamedTzu. Is there anything you can tell me which would suggest that I should only open a discussion about BoyNamedTzu? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Eh, what? I don't know who BoyNamedTzu is. I logged in yesterday after getting a ping to the VP thread because I had participated in an older thread about you and Rachel Helps. Then I got another ping here because I had participated in the thread yesterday. I don't know what you're looking for, but since I've got your attention, I'd appreciate it if you could clue me in on what the invisible game of baseball is you mentioned on the VP thread. Because your response here seems a bit disproportionate. ~Awilley (talk) 17:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, it is your sudden and inexplicable participation in that older thread about Rachel Helps and I which forms the basis for the canvassing concerns. I believe I said it was a game of inside baseball with an invisible ball... Unfortunately I can't provide any of that information due to WP:OUTING concerns, but it has been provided to ARBCON. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose broad topic ban. If we banned people who had any formal association with a Christian church or worship group from editing articles about Christianity, and the same for all religions and sects, we would have nobody left to edit the articles about those important topics, except maybe culture warriors from opposing beliefs, and who wants that? —David Eppstein (talk) 07:16, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  I think you have misunderstood Rachel Helps relationship; it goes beyond a "formal association" - she is an employee, and one who is paid to edit. BilledMammal (talk) 08:28, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Do you think it's ok for a BYU employee, who is paid and pays others to edit Wikipedia, to publish a puffy article about a Mormon organization she was actively writing pieces for; whose citations toward notability are an interview with one sentence of secondary independent coverage of the org, a piece on an exhibition organized by/featuring org members that also has only one sentence of secondary coverage of the org, and an award from another Mormon company for which this employee served as an awards judge the same year? Is it ok for this employee to initially deny COI with the claim she's merely "interested in the page"? And then, even after concerns about COI have been raised and seemingly acknowledged by her, and after the article was first draftified and then declined at AfC, to still recreate it?

  Is it ok for her to direct her employees to write articles on subjects because she can't write them herself due to COI"? JoelleJay (talk) 12:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support, per above. I also believe we should be considering topic bans for the other involved BYU editors. BilledMammal (talk) 08:28, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose such a ban. Rachel has for for a long time shown a COI declaration on her user page, for example January 2023[78] at a location allowed by WP:DISCLOSE. In brief, WP:COI says "There are forms of paid editing that the Wikimedia community regards as acceptable. These include Wikipedians in residence (WiRs) — Wikipedians who may be paid to collaborate with mission-aligned organizations ..." (Wikipedia:Conflict of interest#Wikipedians in residence, reward board) though there is considerable further nuance which requires careful consideration. Different people may legitimately have different understandings. The status of Wikipedians in Residence has for long been a contentious matter and the problems should not be visited on particular individuals. My own experience of her editing has been entirely in non-BYU contexts and has been extremely positive. Thincat (talk) 12:12, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
  • What has your "experience of her editing has been entirely in non-BYU contexts and has been extremely positive." to do with a proposal to ban her specifically from BYU editing where evidence shows that it is not "extremely positive" as in neutral, but has too often a clear pro-BYU stance, reducing the emphasis on scientific positions and increasing the emphasis on non-scientific, partisan positions? Fram (talk) 12:19, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: I just added COI tags on tentwelve more articles that are connected directly to the COI campaign to promote the Association of Mormon Letters. Friends, this is really gigantic problem. It's been going on for years. jps (talk) 13:16, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support: Not being paid by Microsoft is not an excuse for being paid by another lobby group while acting against our trustworthiness guidelines. Pldx1 (talk) 13:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy Break (2)

• Question - Is this a situation that could be resolved with some careful voluntary commitments? The primary issue, it seems to me, is about COI/PAID and not otherwise about competency or a pattern of violating NPOV (I understand there are side conversations about NPOV/RS, but it doesn't seem to be the primacy concern). A topic ban from LDS would not, then, address COI matters to do with any other topic and would prevent her from working on articles with no COI (unless we say belonging to a religion means you have a COI for articles about that religion and anyone else who happens to belong).
  What about a voluntary commitment to (a) maintain a list on her userpage of articles edited with a conflict of interest, erring on the side of inclusion; (b) adding a notice to the talk page of any article edited in connection with her job (there's another parallel discussion about templates/categories which could accomplish this); (c) specifically noting if an edit is made at the request of an employer? That, combined with the knowledge that her edits will receive additional scrutiny due to this thread, seems like it would resolve this without a topic ban, no? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:59, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Can you explain how it would be possible for a paid edit not to come with a COI? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:39, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I understand your question. If an edit falls under WP:PE, there is a COI. The trouble in this case, I think, is in the line between how we generally regard Wikimedians in Residence and paid editors. That's a big, messy question. Ditto the relationship between Mormon subjects broadly, BYU, LDS, etc. (not whether there is one, but how we should think about COI). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikimedian in Residence is a type of paid editor, there is no line between the two. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:32, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what point you're making, but for clarity I will edit my words above: line between how we generally regard Wikimedians in Residence and ^how we treat other^ paid editors. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

So if every edit that falls under PE has a COI... And every edit made by a wikipedian in residence falls under PE... How can a wikipedian in residence work on an article with which they don't have a COI? Any article they work on is one they have a COI with. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:51, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

This has not generally been how the community chooses to interact with Wikimedians in Residence. We expect them to take a "warts and all" approach to editing, and to be cautious, but we also do not expect or AFAICT want them to spam {{edit COI}} on most of their contributions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:16, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

And the Wikimedian in Residence in question here has met neither of those expectations. They have not taken a "warts and all" approach to editing and have been about as far away from cautious as its possible to be. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I would like to understand how this would prevent, for example, the coordinated editing from the Church of Scientology that we banned. We don't enforce disciplinary measures against people on the basis of their religious adherence. But here we have a group is being paid by an institution which is directly involved in the promulgation of said religion. When that happened with the Church of Scientology, we blocked the associated IP addresses on the argument that there basically was no way they could contribute to the encyclopedia at all. And to be sure, a lot of those accounts did good work other than being part of that coordinated effort. How is this different at all? jps (talk) 15:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

The Scientology case began with extensive NPOV violations achieved through sock/meatpuppetry/coordination. We didn't ban them because they were scientologists writing about scientology; we banned them because they were scientologists writing about scientology contrary to our policies. Such evidence hasn't been presented here as far as I've seen. Some level of coordination, yes, which should be disclosed, but not to game the system. That's a fundamental difference that makes the scientology comparison misleading. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:39, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Did you read the VPM thread? I document a few of the diffs there and it's basically a litany of the same. Here we have a group of editors who are adding prose that basically takes the Book of Mormon on its own terms as a text. When called out on it, the ringleader declared that she fundamentally disagrees with people who object to that behavior. It's exactly the same kind of thing the scientologists were doing. And, I mean, I was there for that one and saw it happening. Do me a favor and look at any of the articles about individual passages, people events, settings, etc. in the Book of Mormon. Check the sourcing. See whether it was added by this group. Or look at all the pages I just tagged with COI and see how many of them were connected to Rachel. This is a complete clusterfuck. jps (talk) 16:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Scanned it, but apparently I have more to look at. Will check it out before !voting here. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:04, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I could use a pointer to the evidence you're referring to. I see diffs about COI, but not diffs of edits made my Rachel which violate our policies. The content-related diffs I do see (e.g. in your 17:06, 12 March 2024 comment) were made by others, who aren't the subject of this section. Do me a favor and look at any of the articles about individual passages, people events, settings, etc. in the Book of Mormon. Check the sourcing. See whether it was added by this group. Is this an argument about over-coverage (in which case I'd rather see evidence of lots of deleted pages created by Rachel rather than focused efforts to cover a subject -- I'd argue we have overcoverage of a lot of religious subjects, including Mormonism, and a whole lot of editors focus on specific subjects), or is it an argument about use of inappropriate sources? Regardless, this isn't a topic ban for a group, it's a topic ban for one person so we'd need evidence that Rachel is editing in a non-neutral or otherwise problematic way (not just COI, which seems like something that can be resolved with transparency/assurances). It seems to me there's a bigger conversation that needs to happen regarding use of sources published in connection to a religion and/or by members of that religion. I don't think I peruse religious articles as much as you or many others, but it seems to me like most of them rely on such "in-universe" sources. I don't think that's ideal, but I'm wary of singling one out. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:13, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Hmm... are you saying that you don't think that she should be accountable for the edits that she paid her students to make? I can give you some examples of edits that she made if that's more to your liking, but I'm somewhat surprised that you are so dismissive of student edits which she has later defended on talkpages (but it's possible you aren't looking at larger context due to time). jps (talk) 18:17, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

How does a tban for RH prevent her students from doing anything at all? How would it prevent anything that happens off-wiki? As with any student program, if a student is persistently making bad edits, sanction them like you would any other user. If an instructor displays a pattern of disregard for our policies such that their students are a consistent net negative, that's a different kind of sanction (and I don't think there's enough evidence for that here, either, though that doesn't mean there haven't been problems). What I would expect for a tban on an individual is a pattern of harmful edits made to that topic area. That case hasn't been made sufficiently. The case that has been made, insofar as I've seen, is that there have been some clear COI problems and a difference of opinion when it comes to sourcing religious topics. On the latter, I think you and I are probably on the same page, but I don't see it as an entirely resolved policy issue. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't a TBAN mean paying her students for making any particular edits in that area would be sanctionable for both her and the students? So any edit made in LDS topics by the (BYU) student accounts would be a TBAN violation, but they would be free to edit in that area on their personal accounts. JoelleJay (talk) 19:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

The students would be stopped by WP:MEAT because they receive assignments from RH. jps (talk) 13:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

The relationships are a little confusing to me. We're talking, I think, about effectively interns/research assistant/student workers on one hand and students being students on the other hand. If RH were to be tbanned, that would make any students hired/directed to make specific edits by RH fall somewhere between MEAT and PROXYING, yes, which is a bad place to be. I don't think a general instruction to "edit Wikipedia" would be prevented, though. Nor would students hired by someone else and merely supported by RH. And a tban wouldn't prevent RH from what I suspect is the more common scenario: helping students, faculty, staff, and others to edit according to their own interests (i.e. not directed but supported). And that's IMO a good thing, not just because that attempts to reach too far off-wiki with on-wiki sanctions, but also because while the COI stuff should definitely be avoided, RH is better equipped than a typical student (or even faculty) editor to provide best practices/instruction, etc. I'd say that's probably more rather than less true after this thread. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

The way RH has set up the projects is that she guides the students very carefully in what they do. This is actually one positive thing she does that does not happen with other similar programs I have seen, so good on her for that. The upshot is that I would not want this kind of guidance on her part to end if this paid editing program continues, so her students would effectively be TBanned as well. If we started to see lots of edits the way they have been editing, that would, in my mind, constitute a topic ban violation. I cannot speak for RH, but I suspect that she would have them move away from Mormonism topics if she were TBanned which would be the best possible outcome, as far as I'm concerned.

And, no, I am not convinced that things are going to get better just because of this discussion. There seems to have been an enculturation over the last few years which has provoked a kind of perfect storm of bad editing practices that I have been digging into over the last few days and it is not going to be easy to figure out what to do about all this. There seems to be an over-focus on treating the Book of Mormon as literature which is the main thrust behind RH's favored approach and that of others conflicted with the Association of Mormon Letters. Right now, we have lots of articles on weird little topics within the book of Mormon which treat the thing as though it were literature like Tolkien or Dickens I guess as a way to sidestep questions related to the religious beliefs that surround these things. The students she has coached seem to have adopted this approach in part while also maintaining delightfully matter-of-fact retellings of the mythology as though it were fact. It's a mess.

But the students aren't really to blame here. They're being led by a much-lauded (by enablers you can see in this very thread) Wiki[p|m]edian in Residence who has been scrupulously trying to follow the rules and no one bothered to tell her that maybe editing about a religion as controversial as Mormonism (to which she belongs and is employed by the religious authorities of that religion through their in-house institution of higher education with strict rules on what she can and cannot do vis-a-vis that religion) maybe is not going to sit well with some in the Wikipedia community that takes things like WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE seriously.

So here we are. Your idea to get her to clean things up means unlearning years of training that she invented without input from the community. I look forward to seeing what kind of program you might be able to invent that could address that. jps (talk) 15:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Voluntary commitments, really? No I wouldn't support that because a number of the editors involved have previously lied about not having COIs when asked. Also because this is years of undisclosed COI editing happening here. So, no, it'd be crazy of us to trust any voluntary commitments from people who have actively deceived us for such a long time and up until so recently. Levivich (talk) 16:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support per Toughpigs, and similar action against other COI editors should be considered, per BilledMammal. This is an area where WP should take a hardline stance. Grandpallama (talk) 14:26, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support per User:Vghfr, User:Fram and others. But I think we have a wider issue with LSD-related articles here that a few topic bans will not solve it. I agree with User:JoelleJay's comment in the other discussion about the lack of NPOV in "topics that are only discussed in publications by LDS members and thus exclusively reflect LDS-endorsed teaching on the topic". We have a massive walled garden of hundreds if not thousands of these obscure, otherwise NN topics sourced only to LSD-related publications which could pass the surface of GNG and easily game the notability rules. --Cavarrone 16:38, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Our articles on Catholicism mostly reflect Catholic sources. Our articles on Judaism mostly reflect Jewish sources. That is natural and only to be expected. Why is it suddenly a problem when the same thing occurs in our articles on LDS? The people one would expect to be interested in and write about LDS are...LDS people. That is the nature of the sources. It is not a conflict of interest to use the mainstream sources that are available. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:05, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  While WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, that has not been my experience as I edited those topics. In fact, many of our Catholic articles have sources which are explicitly critical of the Catholic Church nearly to the point of vitriol. By contrast, Judaism is so irreverent and delightfully self-critical that I am at a loss for why you think the comparison to those pages is at all apt. jps (talk) 18:59, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes – if and when those other sources exist, are reliable, are relevant, etc.

  But from your comment above that she disagrees with my suggestion that explicitly religious/apologetics sources should not be used as source material for Wikipedia if the only sources that have noticed them are likewise religious sources, it sounds like the complaint you have here is that some content is being added from LDS-related sources when no non-religious source has ever disagreed with the LDS-related source.

  I have not seen any disputes in which someone adds information about a Catholic or Jewish religious idea, from a reliable source written by a religious organization, and someone else demands that the reliable source be removed on the grounds that non-religious sources haven't published anything on that subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Then you haven't been looking at disputes over the Shroud of Turin. jps (talk) 22:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Why would we even need specific examples from Catholic or Jewish editors when we had a whole arbcom case surrounding exactly this behavior from Scientology adherents? JoelleJay (talk) 23:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Because a new religious group with something on the order of 10 thousand members is not the same as a 200-year religion with 17 million members. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:10, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  LDS is a new religious movement the same as Scientology. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  What does the number of years a religion has been around or number of members of a religion have to do with anything? The only thing I can think of is that there are probably more sources if there is more time and people involved, which is true. But on the substance these things are the same. I mean, Mormonism and Scientology are actually very comparable. There are a great many excellent sources which show that. In fact, that was at one time one of the articles on my list of articles to write. The funny thing is that neither the Mormons nor the Scientologists like the comparison. jps (talk) 23:16, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Older religions also have a much greater likelihood that their scriptures reference things that actually might have happened and so are of interest to secular historians, enough primary interpretations of scripture to engage dozens of generations of academics, and far broader and more significant impact on human culture in general, permitting even more opportunities for interdisciplinary scholarship. We should not be treating every religious movement as if they're each equally likely to have the depth and independence of sourcing needed to support pages on minor aspects of their faith. JoelleJay (talk) 23:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Well, some new religions too. For example, the foundational sacred texts of the Nation of Islam has some fascinating description of what life was like in the African American community of Detroit in the 1930s. jps (talk) 23:43, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Re "Older religions also have a much greater likelihood that their scriptures reference things that actually might have happened": this reads as straight-up prejudice to me (and I have zero connection with LDS). You might just as well say have a much greater likelihood that those older religions' texts contain fabulations, misreadings, and other material we wouldn't want to take as literally true, simply because they've had so much longer to accumulate that sort of material. But we are not basing our content on the content of the Book of Mormon; we are basing it on the accounts of their historians. I would tend to imagine that, while biased, those accounts are maybe more likely to be accurate, because they are from a more recent time with better records, while the writings of the early Christian church historians have the same tendency to their own bias. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:54, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, the older religions generally do have much more fabulist text, as well as a lot more material that has taken on mythical aspects or been reported by apologists (e.g. miracles) over hundreds or thousands of years. But that's irrelevant to what I am saying, which is that it's far more likely texts recounting religious narratives that we can accurately date to c. 300 AD will also have some bits of real history and info on life at the time that can't be found anywhere else, and would thus be of intense interest to modern scholars in many fields, than scripture written more recently (as contemporaneous writings become more numerous, the preciousness of any single one as a major primary source across multiple disciplines outside religion decreases) or scripture that wholly fabricates ancient history and is virtually useless to anyone actually studying its purported time period.

  There are extensive secondary analyses of secondary analyses etc. of scholarship on Jewish or Catholic scriptural and metaphysical questions, and new external sources or theories on the cultural/geopolitical/philosophical climate of a time continue to be discovered and incorporated into what we know about a spiritual topic beyond exegesis of scripture. We don't need to rely on unreliable primary or old secondary sources to do this because we generally have plenty of modern secondary sources, often in multiple nonsecular fields, to use in writing a comprehensive and neutral article on a subject. We don't have this for LDS topics because the furthest back historians can go from BoM et al scripture is 200 years ago. But LDS historians are still analyzing their scriptures in the sincere belief that they recount actual events from thousands of years ago, making the same kinds of extrapolations and interpolations from their holy books to reconstruct that past that any other historian would do with genuine ancient text, except none of it corresponds to real history. No questions in anthropology or archaeology or history are being answered in any way that is meaningful outside of LDS faith, and so no secular researchers in those disciplines have any reason to publish academic commentary on the LDS scholars' theories. The result is that we have hundreds of pages on minor characters and events from BoM where the only sources are from adherents collaboratively building what amounts to a fictional literary universe (or, perhaps as a more fitting analogy, a new, Hardy-hard branch of pure math), except it's dressed up in the same historiographic structure as we'd have on a topic with thousands of years of history. JoelleJay (talk) 02:59, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  It's my view, not necessarely agreeable, but if an LSD topic has no sources outside LSD sources it is likely unnotable, and writing a balanced article about it is impossible. Also, I am not necessarely referring to strictly religious topics, eg., we have obscure, semi-amateur and poorly released films only sourced from Journal of Religion and Film, byu.edu and similar, same with books and other products. Cavarrone 19:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  I think this is a sensible rule. However, I worry about defining "LDS source" too broadly. Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction is written by a Mormon, but it's published by Oxford University Press and targeted at a non-LDS audience. Oxford also publishes an annotated Book of Mormon. I think we need to narrowly define what falls into this category, and have that conversation in a less heated atmosphere than ANI. Ghosts of Europa (talk) 19:52, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with Cavarrone about notability, but I think the solution there is not to announce that only a secular source could possibly be acceptable for explaining the symbolism of the story, and that if no secular source ever wrote about the symbolism, then symbolism can't be mentioned in Wikipedia, but to take the article to AFD.

  When we're talking about a notable subject, though, I think our usual rules work perfectly well for this subject. We don't require independent sources for everything that gets mentioned in an article, and that's true whether you're writing about how many employees Microsoft has, or what the symbolism of the story is, or why the artist chose to put a colorful blanket behind the cow's skull. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:28, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Let me give a concrete example to help focus the conversation. On multiple articles I found years given for events described in the Book of Mormon. Some of those years were laughably specific. Some of those years are repeated by many, many Mormon sources. Now, I would love for there to be an article in Wikipedia about Ascribing dates to the stories in the Book of Mormon or something like that to explain exactly the weird calculus that Mormon apologists go through in arriving at these dates and why certain dates are more popular with certain Mormons than others, but the fact of the matter is that this has been so little noticed by independent sources that in many cases it has not even occurred to the authors of our own articles that putting in years might be a problem. The easiest solution I think is to excise them, but sure, it's not the only possible solution. But the solution cannot be, "let's just put those dates in the articles and call it a day." which was, as far as I can tell, the standard operating procedure. jps (talk) 22:57, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  No, but the solution could be "Let's put the dates in with WP:INTEXT attribution".

  The main point of this sub-thread, though, is to talk about whether we're treating all religions equally. Have you seen a similar thing in, say, Catholic articles, in which someone adds some papal pronouncement, and other editors say, "Oh, no, you can't add that unless you have a secular source, too"? I haven't. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:03, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Absolutely! As I pointed out above, when there are clear fabrications (as in, for example, the case of Marian apparitions), we do the same thing. jps (talk) 23:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  By the way, these students got the memo about WP:INTEXT. The problem is that that often goes like this, "According to [PERSON'S NAME THAT IS UNMENTIONED EXCEPT FOR RIGHT HERE], this story is all about..." Or, worse, "According to historian [HISTORIAN]..." and you research the historian and come to find that they are a professor of history at BYU who wrote the book, "How I KNOW the Book of Mormon is true" or whatever. So, no, WP:INTEXT isn't cure-all. jps (talk) 23:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• NeutralYes, things are not okay. But I have serious trouble with the fact that a topic ban can cost her her job. The Banner talk 18:28, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  If this ban will cause loss of employment as a Wikipedian in Residence, wouldn't this be seen as a personal attack as this is threatening the editor's livelihood? Furthermore, wouldn't the effort to have editors who have any affiliation with Brigham Young University in relation to Mormanism cause a chilling effect and diminish the improvement of articles around that topic? RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 23:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  Surely you could ask these questions about any analogous remedy addressing a WiR or systematic COI. Surely these positions aren't immune from scrutiny; we're concerned about people being paid by BYU to edit Wikipedia, not every individual affiliated with them in any way. If you're making some other point, I am not able to tell what it is. Remsense诉 23:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. Rachel Helps has been a consistent positive contributor to an essential area of religious discourse. She is professionally talented, responsive to community, an active participant on multiple open networks of movement organizers, and an ambitious trainer and supervisor for others. There's is nothing that says WIRs can't work in areas where there is controversy, or even have a point of view, as long as their work is disclosed and aims to improve the encyclopedia in a rigorous fashion. There are plenty of COI battles to fight; this isn't one of them. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 19:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  To clarify, are you opposing the topic ban for Thmazing (not Rachel Helps)? Ghosts of Europa (talk) 20:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  I've moved it to the correct section. Apologies and thanks for the tip! Ocaasi ^{t | c} 20:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  • Ocaasi, you appear to have a) !voted in the wrong section and b) failed to read anything more than the section heading, as then you would know that the issue is that their work has not been "disclosed" or "rigorous" on subjects they were professionally connected to. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think "aiming to improve the encyclopedia in a rigorous fashion" is necessarily good enough. Otherwise WP:CIR bans/blocks wouldn't be a thing. Now, maybe you oppose those bans/blocks too, but I am deep in the weeds right now of seeing how Rachel Helps's students were treating material relevant to their religion and... hooboy... even if their hearts were in the right place they are doing us no favors in articlespace. I am very, very happy she has finally told her students to work in sandboxes which, if that had been happening all along I probably wouldn't be involved in this, but the conversation I'm having with her right now is one the "Open Networks of Movement Organizers" should have had with her years ago about her programming. Y'all did her dirty and I'm actually angrier at her enablers than I am at her. She honestly did not know this was coming and by running defense this whole time after multiple people have sounded alarms (just look through her usertalkpage archive), you did not give her the support she would have needed to actually make something like this work (or choose to not do it at all in case, as I suspect, it would be impossible to make this stuff work). jps (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Point of order: she knew this was coming for the last four years at least[79]. Thats what makes the refusal to improve and meet the standards/practices outlined by the community so bad. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for bringing that up. You neglrct to mention that there was no administrative acton resulting from that discussion, and no community admonishment or sancation. Indeed, even the person raising the issue noted "They're writing good, well-researched articles which appear again from a quick check to be neutrally-written and -sourced. I think the work they're doing is valuable." and, later, "I want to clarify that I don't think anyone has broken any rules or deserves any sanctions." Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Well yeah, that discussion got mobbed by people we now know had major undisclosed COIs. You're selectively cherrypicking in a way that seems misleading at best, especially considering the things you say in that discussion. We have the same thing happening there as here, Rachel Helps is informed about best practices and rejects them saying for example "In my opinion, best practices should be defined by the people doing the job." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  They're writing good, well-researched articles which appear again from a quick check to be neutrally-written and -sourced. I think the work they're doing is valuable. I don't really have time to go back into the history of four years ago to check if that was true then, but it is absolutely not the case right now. I have been going through dozens of Book of Mormon articles that were being edited by this crew and with very few exceptions they are not NPOV nor well-sourced -- many are either WP:PROFRINGE or written in something like WP:INUNIVERSE with bizarre assumptions, turns of phrase, etc. I am finding all kinds of sources being used that have 0 citations according to Google Scholar! Rachel Helps (BYU) is defending this practice of keeping such shoddy sources in these articles much to my disappointment. jps (talk) 16:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Ocaasi: Are you also an active participant in those open networks of movement organizers? Any conflicts you should be disclosing? Pardon the question but we seem to be having an issue with undisclosed COIs on a number of levels in this discussion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support per Rachel Helps: "I will concede that I had undisclosed COI for editing on my personal account. I believe that NPOV is more important than an undisclosed COI." I am unable to trust this user in this topic area any longer. starship.paint (RUN) 01:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
  • I believe the above admission I highlighted contrasts with several opposers' rationale, and I quote from each of them: (1) How anyone can ... say her CoI is "undisclosed" (2) Banning someone for a procedural error, (3) Rachel has for for a long time shown a COI declaration on her user page, (4) There's is nothing that says WIRs can't work in areas where there is controversy, or even have a point of view, as long as their work is disclosed. starship.paint (RUN) 02:06, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Please don't quote me (and others) out of context; even if you do neglect to give attrbution when doing so. What I wrote and what I was replying to when I did so is avaialble for anyone to see, at the top of this thread. What you quote Rachel saying does not negate my comment. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
      • @Pigsonthewing: - you defended Rachel indicating that she disclosed COI on the (BYU) account. But, she admitted undisclosed COI on the other, personal account. The same person is behind both accounts, so I am afraid she didn’t handle COI properly. starship.paint (RUN) 00:06, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

• Hesitant oppose, because I'm a little worried we're conflating some related but separate issues here. It is quite clear that Rachel Helps did a poor job of disclosing her COIs, and lost perspective when editing some topics on which she had a COI. It is clear that many BYU-affiliated editors have been writing poor content. And it is clear that many pages related to Mormonism have too much material from uncritical sources (but this isn't limited to Mormonism by any means). But I don't see this topic-ban addressing any of those issues, and indeed I think it might worsen them, because Rachel is better placed than many editors to help fix these issues. I do think her students need to be moved away from LDS-related topics: whether because they're being paid, or the rules of BYU, or their upbringing, or some combination thereof, there seems to be a recurring pattern of poor content that others need to fix. But at this moment I don't see how this TBAN would achieve much besides being a punishment. It wouldn't even fix the COI issue, because as best as I can tell religion is sort of incidental to those COI issues; it's just Rachel editing about things she's involved with in RL, which is a problem to be sure, but isn't limited to Mormonism. It seems to me Rachel is taking the concerns expressed here seriously, and we'd do better to focus on the problematic content other editors, including her students, may have introduced. For the record, I consider myself quite firmly in favor of avoiding apologetic sources and in-universe sources for religious subjects, and have argued for this position in numerous cases involving most major religions. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:17, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Okay, this is a convincing (to me) oppose. Only reason I stay supporting the ban is that I see a topic ban from LDS would probably encourage a lot of the best-case scenario stuff to happen anyway and it might get accomplished and probably more quickly. Yes, she is well-placed to fix issues and I'm sure she wants to fix them, but maybe it would be better if she and her students focused on other things that could be done at that library. The flora and fauna of the Great Basin, for example. jps (talk) 05:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  I fully agree that her students - and possibly Rachel herself - should stay away from Mormon doctrine, and from minor LDS-affiliated organizations in the future (minor, because major ones receive editorial scrutiny and attention from critical sources; it's the ones that don't that seem to be the focus of the problem). Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  In that case, why not topic ban just to make it clear? jps (talk) 16:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Because there's a big difference between "shouldn't add substantive content to these pages going forward" and "isn't permitted to discuss these topics in any way shape or form". I stand by what I said above that Rachel herself is best placed to help us clean up some of this mess. Not to mention that TBANNing her when she still has active students would be quite silly; those would then be completely unsupervised. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:31, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  Why would that be silly? We're all completely unsupervised and these are adult in college, not children in middle or high school. They should be entirely capable of editing wikipedia on their own, we all do. Also note that while these are student employees they are not her students in the sense that they are enrolled in a class where she is their instructor. She is an employer/manager not a teacher or professor to these editors. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:42, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  So you're describing a TBAN from articlespace? I agree that this is where most of the damage is happening--discussion spaces are much less problematic. As for your "unsupervised active student" argument, I don't understand it even a little bit. You already said "I fully agree that her students - and possibly Rachel herself - should stay away from Mormon doctrine, and from minor LDS-affiliated organizations in the future." RH would still be able to supervise them to edit articles on the flora and fauna of the Great Basin. jps (talk) 17:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  Very simply, those students are a net-positive largely because of Rachel's supervision, and as such I oppose any TBAN on those grounds until we simultaneously apply it to all students she is responsible for. She may technically be able to supervise them on non-LDS topics, but that's quite unworkable in practice. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support Even though the COI is greater than Mormonism this would at least serve as a warning that Helps' COI editing is causing concern. Lavalizard101 (talk) 12:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
  • "serve as a warning " You think this thread doesn't do that? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

    Some warnings may need to be more forcefully made than others. I sympathize with the idea that Rachel Helps (BYU) probably thought everything was fine and that the complaints that had been leveled against her over the years were nothingburgers. Unfortunately, those complaints were serving as warnings that obviously went unheeded. And, to be frank, I think people like you are to blame for enabling her and not being honest with her that this was coming. Now, maybe you didn't know this was coming, but someone in your group of WMF/GLAM/WIR in-person conference/wiknic attendees should have noticed and taken her aside and given her the advice that right now is coming down like a pile of bricks. But it didn't happen. Years went by and here we are. That's right, I am much angrier at you (and the position you are representing right now) than I am at her. jps (talk) 16:46, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per Vanamonde93. While there are some issues, they don't amount to the kind of egregious problem that would warrant such dracionian action; and there is no previous sanction, let alone one wilfuly disregarded. I might suport some lesser remedy, such as mentiorship. or a probationary period after which we can reviist the matter if issues persist. But I believe Rachel's work has been shown to be - and wil contnue to be - a net benefit to this project. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:45, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Pigsonthewing: I see this isn't your first rodeo[80]. Can I ask how opinion has changed since the first time you commented on this issue four years ago? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:45, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Maybe we should start asking the harder question whether involvement in WMF-sponsored programs like GLAM/Edit-a-thons/Wikipedia-in-Residence constitutes a conflict of interest. Because I see wagon circling. jps (talk) 15:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  There's no question it does, the only question is whether its enough of a COI to be an issue (signs point to yes BTW given the wagon circling). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  WMF-sponsored programs like GLAM/Edit-a-thons/Wikipedia-in-Residence constitutes a conflict of interest - Does WMF fund this WiR? Most WiR positions these days (AFAIK) are funded by the hiring institutions. I would be shocked if the WMF were funding this one just based on the fact that it involves on-wiki editing, which has been a line for the WMF, historically. Likewise most GLAM projects have nothing to do with the WMF. If you go to a museum and say "can I tell you about Wikipedia" or "want to upload some photos to Commons" or "want to host an edit-a-thon" then you're involved with a GLAM project, regardless of who funds it or whether it involves any funding at all. The extent to which the WMF is involved with most edit-a-thons is to fund an affiliate, who then e.g. buys a couple pizzas for attendees. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think that sponsored and funded are synonyms there... Anything under the banner or that is allowed to use the branding is sponsored even if there is no funding provided. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed. While more-or-less radically open to anyone, someone (the community) ultimately does have to agree that GLAM is appropriately attached to something so that it can be called that. This is usually pro forma, but it still ends up supported. If "sponsored" is the troubling word, choose another synonym that means the same without necessarily monetary support. jps (talk) 17:21, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - I started typing this yesterday, and find that Vanamonde has articulated some similar reasons, so partially "per Vanamonde". I see evidence of insufficiently disclosed COIs, evidence that RH is working to address those problems, evidence of years of good faith engagement with the Wikimedia/Wikipedia community, evidence of problematic edits made by other people, a big thorny question about independence of sourcing in religious articles that's better addressed elsewhere, and not nearly enough diffs showing violations of our content policies by RH to justify a tban.
  That said, I would strongly urge RH to set some boundaries in the WiR role and to articulate those boundaries on their user page. Our COI guideline is messy and applied inconsistently, and often with a rhetorical flourish that tries to combine the negative connotations with close COIs and the technical definition of COI that includes distant COIs we don't actually view as a problem. All of this makes things challenging for anyone who does any editing with a close or [moderate?, for lack of a better word] COI, since you have to be able to judge how much COI is going to be too much, and be prepared for that scale to slide based on other factors (as in this case, the role of money and the role of other affiliated editors). Being transparent goes a long way, but my own $0.02 is that you should absolutely abstain from editing or assigning anyone to edit an article on any subject you've received money from, that you're on the board for, that you have a nontrivial personal relationship with, etc. That's what {{Edit COI}} is for. The COI guideline doesn't require you stay away, but editing those articles while being paid is a recipe for disaster. I worry that it erodes the thin line between "the kind of paid editing we like" and "the kind of paid editing we don't like" such that the life of future WiRs will be more difficult. Enwiki's view of COI seems like it will only become more volatile.
  All in all, I think having a highly experienced Wikipedian on staff is very much a good thing. RH has the ability to translate the complicated and ever-evolving PAGs (and their interpretations) for a large community. As long as most of the problematic content edits are other people's, it would be good to have RH available to help. Besides, as I started off saying, the evidence just isn't here to justify a tban. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Mostly I agree with you, however I do assign greater accountability to RH for what you're calling "other people's" edits. In these cases she is both acting as the supervisor of, and paying, these other people to make those problematic edits, which I think elevates her responsibility quite a bit. Especially given several of the articles she assigned to students were assigned because she felt she had too much of a COI to write them herself... JoelleJay (talk) 18:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, if you have a COI and assign/pay someone to edit it, that doesn't negate the COI. It just creates another level of PAID and/or a WP:MEAT/proxy-based COI, which is probably going to be regarded as worse insofar as it obscures the COI. Along the lines of voluntary commitments and clear articulations of boundaries that I've been talking about, I'd hope something acknowledging as much would be in there, if she hasn't addressed it already. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 19:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  The best I can say is that she is asking her students to sandbox. That's the full extent of it that I've seen. She will be stepping away for a few days, but maybe you could ask her when she gets back to implement something that would make you comfortable? I'm kinda of the opinion that the more ways we try to solve this the better. jps (talk) 21:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy Break (3)

• Support per Aquillion Oppose per Awilley, Rhododendrites, Vanamonde93, FyzixFighter [I admit that the comment pointed out by Starship.paint is troubling.], but at minimum a strong warning and possibly some edit-restrictions and proposals like agreements by Rhododendrites. I did not see evidence of a strong warning for the behavior when it was discovered followed by a recalcitrant refusal to comply and/or apology with repeating the behavior. (If that was the case, I would reconsider.It was per Levivich (thank you for providing this link: WP:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 166#Brigham Young University), and I have hence changed my !vote) It appears her editing is not so much a problem as the failure to disclose the COI and paid-editing, e.g. Awilley’s comments. As for her students' editing as described by Vanamonde93, that is another matter. I explain my position on that below in response to jps and Grandpallama--I'm not sure how best to handle that. I'm not in favor of a topic ban for all of them--but consquences for those that have problematic behavior, were warned, and continued. Would support this done on case-by-case basis. I'm not sufficiently familiar with the two examples kindly provided below to see if such mass action is best.

As much as I am opposed to paid editing, unfortunately, we allow it, so--unless I have misunderstood WP:PAID (and WP:PEW)--our greatest concern by allowing compensation for edit (or COI) is on their ability to follow WP:NPOV. If they can’t follow WP:NPOV, then the COI and paid-editing are aggravating factors favoring restriction or prohibition of editing in that area. And although non-disclosure is certainly a problem and must have consequences and accountability, it’s not clear to me there was an intent to deceive or other behavior so severe that we can’t seek an alternative accountability measures than a topic-ban.

I don’t know what typically happens when a failed disclosure is revealed. Has it *always* been the case that such discovery resulted in a topic ban from the subject area, site ban, or similar? Is it true as Levivich opined If Microsoft hired people to create articles about its products, and these editors disclosed they were paid editors but in some cases promoted some of these products while working with other Microsoft employees who edited with undisclosed COI, Wikipedia would siteban all of them with little discussion. Are there such examples?

I believe we warn the editor, give them another chance with a short leash, and bring them right back here if it continues. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC) [revised 05:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC); 06:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC)]

Scientology is the obvious example. jps (talk) 01:39, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Editing around Falun Gong has also had similar problems. Grandpallama (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@ජපස and Grandpallama: Thank you for the examples. Would you mind giving me a link or two for the mass action?

I do ultimately think what is done with the students might best be adjudicated separately with evidence for each student involved--if that was done sufficiently already here and I glossed over it, my apologies. I was focussed on the incorrect assumption that Rachel Helps had not been warned. That really changes everthing about my thinking about both her and how it impacted the students behavior.

Any that we know conclusively were paid and didn't disclose it, I would support a topic or site ban. I don't care if she said it was okay not to disclose.

For any that are unpaid, it is likely she misled and incorrectly advised them about proper behavior here. So, the key question, did WE advise them about proper behavior -and- did we warn them when they crossed a line? Any student who crossed the line after OUR sufficient warning--regardless of what she might have told them to the contrary--I would support an indefinite TB for students falling into that case. Those students might realize they were duped, apologize, and come clean. I do see this as a "teachable moment", and I would hope we can retain some of the students who really are interested in following the rules and helping to build an encyclopedia that is NPOV. They may actually gain respect for us for holding her accountable.

Any in this second category that are allowed to stay here, I'd say we give each an immediate stern warning about the result of what happened to her and why, about COI and POV-editing and the consequences for their instructor for such inappropriate behavior. Let them know they will be under scrutiny moving forward and that they are on a short leash in that topic area.--David Tornheim (talk) 05:30, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I guess let Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/COFS and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology be your light reading today. There is a lot here and I'm not sure I can help wade through it all. RH and her students have disclosed that they were paid. I am not sure there are any unpaid volunteers or not, but that would be good to clarify. The warnings about COI were thwarted in the past through certain COIN discussions that were closed with "no action". This was definitely unfortunate because here we are back today. jps (talk) 10:35, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with SCI (which was almost entirely about a situation like this), not so much with COFS (which was more about User:COFS). I think THP or MrW is better reading here than COFS. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 23:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. --David Tornheim (talk) 06:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

@ජපස: Thanks for the links. I started to continue to write about what I thought should happen with the students given the fact that they are all paid, but the more time I spent trying to articulate a fair position, the more I realized it would be better to give space to those like yourself who know what typically happens in these cases and the policy involved. From first reading about this, I was inclined towards Levivich's position of not holding the students unduly responsible for poor supervision, but my concern about paid editing is closer to Aquillion. I'm stepping back.--David Tornheim (talk) 06:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

• 2020 COIN - WP:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 166#Brigham Young University - just want to make sure everyone is aware of the time this issue was discussed in 2020. Among the people claiming there was no COI editing at that time was Nihonjoe. We now know that the concerns raised then were real, some of the people defending it had undisclosed COI, and the discussion did not lead to improvement in how COI was handled by Rachel Helps. Levivich (talk) 14:51, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  Oh dear. From that thread: Hi, I disagree with the idea that all pages I edit are COI. My job doesn't depend on showing people in a positive light. What she fails to say that if she started showing certain people in a negative light, she absolutely runs the risk of running afoul with her employer. I had a discussion with her about this on her talkpage and she said that she was worried about that when she started and her supervisor assured her that her students could write whatever as long as it was attributed to sources. So if a student wrote, "The Book of Mormon contains anachronisms" as a statement of fact without attribution, I am not sure they would be protected by that. But more to the point, the BYU authorities themselves are not bound by this agreement. The social control that is exerted over people who are in the employ of BYU is absolutely real. There is a reason that only a mere 5% of faculty at that college are not members of the LDS church. Y'all, there are lots of reliable sources that identify Mormonism's cult-like behaviors. It is on display here loud and clear. jps (talk) 15:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support, since just asking nicely in 2020 (COIN) did not have any positive effect. MarioGom (talk) 15:59, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  It is worth noting that, per WP:PROXY, this topic ban would effectively ban any student/employee to edit under the supervision of Helps in any way that bypasses the terms of the main topic ban. So it might make sense to formally extend the sanction to any and all BYU programs. MarioGom (talk) 19:24, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

• For Detective Levivich of the COI Bureau: While I have never had any affiliation with BYU, the LDS movement, or anything adjacent, I know more people who go/went to BYU than I can count on two hands. Which means that I know not to click on soaking in the LDS template footer, I already knew that the second item in the Church Educational System Honor Code is "be honest", and I can see the irony in the editors of Second Nephi engaging in small deceptions (28:8, c'mon!). On-wiki, I spent a great deal of time about five years ago in grinding arguments at AfD over articles about non-notable LDS subjects sourced mostly to official LDS sources, church-owned media, and LDS-focused blogs. So I also have a sense of how much valuable editor time can be burned up bringing that sort of content back in line with English Wikipedia policies/guidelines.
  Rachel Helps has breached community trust while modeling behavior for students under her supervision. And it looks like we've got some content issues around assuming that stuff that's important within the LDS movement is important outside of it as well. Both of those things are bad. But a lot of the edits are good. So for us here at English Wikipedia, I think it's a matter of finding a way to rebuild trust while keeping the good parts of the BYU WiR project going.
  I support a topic ban on the WiR and all student workers, because it will clarify an important difference between 1) the BYU WiR project's main goal is to improve this encyclopedia, and 2) the BYU WiR project's main goal is to legitimize/normalize the LDS movement and institutions, and to spread its doctrines and lore by getting as much LDS-related content as possible into the highest-visibility website that still allows people to sign in and add stuff. Sometimes those goals align, but clearly there have been some problems when they don't. So for me a topic ban is not punishment, but rather a chance to recalibrate the relationship and rebuild trust. If BYU will still pay the WiR and (BYU) editors to contribute to English Wikipedia on the approximately millions of other topics, and they do that, great, let's have another conversation about lifting the topic ban once that trust is regained. Indignant Flamingo (talk) 18:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  *chomping cigar* All right, boys, this one checks out, let 'em through. Levivich (talk) 18:40, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  I appreciate your rational approach here. I'm not the expert, but I think the role of the BYU WiR is quite a bit more narrow than just 1) improving the encyclopedia and sideways from 2) legitimizing and spreading Mormonism. Rachel would be a better person to clarify, but I understood her role more along the lines of facilitating access to and improving content related to some of the more unique collections owned by the BYU library. Most of those collections will probably have some connection to Mormonism.

  One of the things I've appreciated most about Rachel's editing is the nitty gritty source work that she does. For example: many editors are somewhat sloppy with sources... They'll take a sourced statement and modify it a bit without changing the meaning too much and move the source somewhere, maybe to the end of a sentence or clause or paragraph. Then someone else will come along a year later and do something similar. Eventually you end up with sources that are completely disconnected from the statement they were meant to support, or that original statement may be gone altogether. I've seen Rachel fixing long term problems like that, as well as immediately cleaning up after other editors when they move soures around in a sloppy way. I've also seen her cleaning up copyvios, circular references, wrong page numbers, random templates, and other tedious gnomish work that so many of us avoid, ignore, or take for granted. I would love to see her be able to continue this kind of work in the topic area where she has expertise.

  I think it's clear from the above that the community agrees that Rachel fell short in disclosing COI when editing and creating articles about people and organizations close to her. I personally think those shortcomings were exacerbated by scope creep, unclarity, and even contradictions in our own guidelines and expectations, but let's set that aside. There are also a lot of people who see problems in the work of her student editors, which I'm not familiar with myself, so I'll take that at face value. That suggests a lack of training, supervision, etc. on Rachel's part. I have not, though, seen significant criticisms of Rachel's own edits.

  So my question to you is: would you support some kind of narrower sanction that directly addresses the above problems but still allows Rachel to do her job as WiR and make the kind of helpful edits I mentioned above? That might include a ban on directly creating articles and a ban on editing articles where she has a (well-defined) COI. Or maybe even a ban on editing articles outside of citation management. And likely more strict restrictions on her students. I don't know what would work best, and some workshopping with Rachel would probably be helpful when she comes back from break. Thoughts? ~Awilley (talk) 21:59, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Rhododendrites: Okay, I'm not going to let this excuse that "it was all her students" slide anymore. RH has made some absolutely atrocious edits over the last few months. Fram, above, documented the result in the actual article of Second Nephi, but here they are the diffs from her:

  • [81]
  • [82]
  • [83]
  • [84]
  • [85]

  These diffs are all inclusive of an extreme amount of unduly weighted apologetics content from obscure Mormon Theologians. This also, infruriatingly, includes apologias for the abject and abhorrent racism in the text. That’s right, RH is trying to apologia away the racism in her faith’s scripture. Lest that not be enough evidence for you:

  • [86] Here she is whitewashing away the fact that Joseph Smith instituted racist dogma.

  I'm sure she saw nothing wrong with that. It's the frog in the boiling pot of water. In the LDS Church, this kind of game-playing is what happens as a matter of course. We are not the LDS church. We have a standard that is not apologetics. jps (talk) 22:44, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  @jps: The first 5 diffs you cite are not apologetics, they're analyzing how different themes/ideas in the Book of Mormon "Second Nephi" have been interpreted and have influenced LDS thought and belief over time. As far as I can tell her citations are to secondary reliable sources from reputable publishers. In the 6th diff she is reverting a blatantly POV IP edit and attempting to make a clarification along the way. The original sentence, before the IP's edit, incorrectly stated/implied that Smith taught that dark skin was a curse for "premortal unrighteousness". That's false, and you can verify that by scrolling down to the body of the article and doing a Ctrl+F for "1844". Apparently Rachel had missed that the sentence could be read in a different way: that Smith had taught it was a curse, and that LDS leaders after Smith had taught that the curse was for "premortal unrighteousness". Fortunately 2 days later, editor Pastelitodepapa (the article's original author) came along and removed all ambiguity. [87] This is a normal interaction on Wikipedia. People write ambiguous sentences. People misinterpret those sentences and make mistakes. People fix the mistakes. ~Awilley (talk) 06:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Awilley They absolutely are apologetics. What they are doing is trying to recast/reframe a discussion of this book in a way to encourage understanding the text as though it really happened and offer apologia for the ways in which it clearly runs into anachronism and error. Reliability is always contextual and the context here is that these sources are being used to support preaching and proselytization (that's their raison d'etre). The claim that the IP edit was "blatantly POV" as absurd. The IP edit is correct. Joseph Smith supported the racism of the Mormon church as you even show was confirmed later on. RH reverting that edit was acting in accordance with her faith and not in accordance with the facts. Whether intentional or not, the whole point is that this is a paid editor gatekeeping at Book of Mormon articles, paid by a Mormon faith-based institution to edit our encyclopedia. She needs to be held to a higher standard. This is faith-based POV pushing. WP:Civil POV-pushing, but POV pushing all the same. jps (talk) 12:41, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  @jps, You've got it backwards. Take a closer look at the IP edit. It most certainly is incorrect and POV. Read the edit summary. Note the phrase "...in the church we believe..." Rachel was not the one trying to whitewash in that interaction, she was reverting a Mormon IP who was erasing a big part of the racist history (premortal sin theory) and pushing the modern LDS POV. Feel free to hat this as "extended discussion" so it doesn't bog down the AN/I. ~Awilley (talk) 21:51, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  AH! You are right that the IP edit was bad... but now RH's edit is even worse. She removed the mention of Joseph Smith, I guess in deference to the sensibilities. This is also a misleading edit summary. This is not just a revert. This is an introduction of a whitewash of RH's own making! And you're still defending her? jps (talk) 22:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  No, she most likely read the sentence as "...Joseph Smith taught that dark skin was a sign of God's curse for premortal unrighteousness" and tried to correct that. Joseph Smith never taught that. It was after Smith's death that people came up with the "premortal unrighteousness" garbage. ~Awilley (talk) 22:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  No, Smith did it too: [88]. I know it's popular to give him a pass. The LDS apologetic line. But, again, Wikipedia is not for apologetics. jps (talk) 23:13, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  The earliest mention I can find of that rationale is from Orson Hyde in 1844 or 1845. I just looked up the reference in the paper you linked. The reference was to Brodie's No Man Knows My History page 173-4, which I happen to have on my shelf. Brodie does indeed suggest that the idea originated with Smith, but she doesn't provide any evidence to back that up. Her only citation for that is to a 1845 speech/pamphlet by Orson Hyde. This may be part of why Brodie now has a reputation for going beyond what the actual evidence supports, and why her book is listed as "additional considerations" on the project page instead of "generally reliable". Or maybe I'm missing something. Either way, Rachel Help's edit summary said she was summarizing the article, and that is indeed what the article says. If you think the article is incorrect, a discussion on the talk page would be the logical next step. ~Awilley (talk) 23:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  Are you really unable to see the issue here? "Oh, the person who claims that Smith taught about this curse doesn't back it up because it was only found in a pamphlet by Orson Hyde." Forget it. At this point, you're running interference. jps (talk) 23:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic-ban - This smacks to me of the same type of COI editing that led to the creation of WP:GS/CRYPTO and the SCI contentious topic, and I get the sense that the scope of this will lead to COI including a CTOP of some sort. The long-term deception and obvious lack of clue as to what best-practices for a COI entails are both extremely problematic, and either on their own would have justified a topic-ban with or without a CTOP designation. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 18:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. I am an atheist with a long-time interest in world religions who wrote a Good Article about the Laie Hawaii Temple in 2008. In the intervening years, I have never once encountered a problem from other LDS members on Wikipedia, only my fellow non-theists and atheists, one of which, Horse Eye's Black, destroyed my work and has now made it eligible for delisting.[89] Viriditas (talk) 00:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  ?? That diff shows HEB removed the citations to one dubiously-reliable apologist source, he didn't even remove any content; saying he "destroyed" your work is a pretty groundless aspersion. JoelleJay (talk) 03:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  He removed a reference to an older version of the material because he failed to look at the date of the source, thereby making it unsourced and eligible for delisting. Furthermore, he removed links that others had added, non-controversial links to BYU computer scientist Rick Satterfield, who had spent years collecting and formulating a database for LDS. Viriditas (talk) 04:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  It doesn't matter what version of the material was being cited when the underlying source for all versions is unreliable. Even if the author was a "BYU computer scientist", which he obviously isn't, that would be irrelevant since exemptions to SPS require recognized academic subject-matter expertise. JoelleJay (talk) 05:29, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  I disagree. In 2004, when user Gerald Farinas originally added the external link to the article,[90] it was in wide use in LDS articles. When I arrived to the article in 2007 and tagged the source as unreliable (at the time referred to synonymously as "verify credibility", whose history has beeen now lost)[91], another user started a discussion on the talk page in response to my tagging. They assured me that the source was reliable. I looked at it, and found that the "about page" said that Rick Satterfield created the site as a project for his computer science classes before getting his computer science degree in 2001. In the ensuing years it had become a go-to hobbyist site for statistics about LDS architecture, which is exactly how it was used in the article. It was not used to make religious claims, it was not used to make political claims, it was used only to make factual statements about architecture. In this regard, and per the discussion, I acknowledged that it met the exemption (this was 2007) and compromised by removing the tag, a tag that I originally added. So, to recap, I was the one who originally questioned the reliability, I was the one who discussed it on the talk page with another user who argued for its use, and I was the one who engaged in the art of compromise to allow the source to be used in a specific, narrow way. I was not, however, a drive-by editor like HEB, who just arrived to the article one day and removed the source and the content on a whim because I didn't like the words in the URL. Keep in mind, in the ensuing years at some point, long after I had left the article, the URL had changed from the neutral-titled "ldschurchtemples.com" to "churchofjesuschristtemples.org". And I continue to maintain that the underlying source for all versions was not unreliable. And it's not irrelevant that Satterfield collected the data for his computer science classes. BYU has numerous, front-facing student sites today that are and continue to be reliable sources for Wikipedia. Like ldschurchtemples.com, which provided a unique resource in the past for obscure archeological data, I continue to draw upon research from Brigham Young University for articles I write. For example, I recently wrote Flathead Lake Biological Station, which cites writer Abbey Buckham of Northern Arizona University, who wrote the most comprehensive history of the station that is currently online. Her work was published by the Charles Redd Center for Western Studies which is part of BYU Research Institutes. So no, I don't agree with you, and I will continue to draw upon BYU students, graduates, and their research for my articles. Viriditas (talk) 18:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  You seem to be ignoring my entreaties on your usertalkpage, so maybe I have to respond here.

  I think, as others are trying to explain to you, you are making a strawman argument. There is sincere and strong evidence that this group has been skewing dozens of pages on the Book of Mormon in a very particular way that is going to take a lot of work to clean up.

  This proposal for a TBAN is not an attempt to ban everything coming out of BYU. We aren't even asking to end the WiR/GLAM/Paid Editing program. In fact, what you ask at the end about Flathead Lake Biological Station is exactly the sort of thing I would hope that RH's students would have been working on instead of the sloppy and over-detailed exegesis they've been focusing on for the last months. Not everything that comes out of BYU is about LDS.

  Yeah, with a TBAN you're not going to get RH or her students to help you write about LDS temples. Sorry. But given the streams of awful I've been wading through in the past few days trying to make sense of what is going on at Book of Mormon pages, I think that this sort of collateral damage is likely more than worth it, sorry to say. Your happy editing on one article does not excuse the 100s of articles that are absolute messes. That said, this TBAN would make it more likely that you could benefit from BYU student editors on articles like Flathead Lake Biological Station. This is likely to be a win for you since those are far and away the more common articles I see you working on than the LDS temples. jps (talk) 20:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  @ජපස: If RH and the students were TBanned, would the students really be more likely to edit in other topic areas?

  User:Heidi Pusey BYU's conflict of interest statement on her user page currently reads (emphases added):

  I am employed and paid by the Harold B. Lee Library to edit Wikipedia pages about the Book of Mormon on behalf of Brigham Young University. I am a student employee of Rachel Helps (BYU) and I specialize in research for early Book of Mormon studies as well as literary studies of the book. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I am extensively familiar with the Book of Mormon but seek to edit with a neutral viewpoint.

  Heidi's employment appears to be specific to Book of Mormon pages. It is on behalf of BYU, which makes me wonder about the academic freedom questions raised elsewhere. Isn't this declaration inconsistent with Wikipedia goals like NPOV writing without an agenda? Further, if Heidi's specialty is in this topic area, would she be interested in paid non-Book of Mormon editing... and would BYU be interested in paying for it?

  I wonder whether a TBAN will actually produce the outcome you describe? 1.141.198.161 (talk) 00:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  From what I understand in brief discussion with RH, this was set by her in discussion with RH. This topic focus could be changed. But good to confirm with RH that this really is the case, for sure. jps (talk) 10:23, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  Hi. I am currently in the process of changing my students' pages they are editing to pages that are unrelated to the LDS church or BYU. I will be changing Heidi's assignment when I see her later today. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Rachel Helps (BYU): Thanks for that information, that sounds like a wise decision in the circumstances. Heidi has commented at her user talk page that she did not intend the phrase "on behalf of Brigham Young University" to be taken literally, which is good to hear / know. I can see how this phrase might be chosen by an employee without considering the implications, and Heidi has acted to change the wording. I suggest that you check for any similar phrasings because, in an environment of heightened attention and scrutiny, they can create an impression that is unhelpful. In fact, I encourage you to reflect carefully on how your subordinates' words on user pages might be interpreted by outsiders. I doubt that BYU would be entirely comfortable with a statement that every action of a student editor was made on its behalf, no matter how well intentioned the student or the statements. In my various positions working for Universities, I would not have presented my every action as on their behalf, and I suspect that you would not present yourself that way either.

  On Heidi's comment that her employment was specific to Book of Mormon topics, is her position (prior to the changes you are about to implement) actually tied to working on that specific topic area? If so, did focus on a narrow (compared to the scope of your library and WP broadly) that is squarely within the area of COI not raise any concerns for you or anyone connected with WiR, etc? I ask because, in charting a course forwards, it can be helpful to understand what has happened to now and how it happened. From your perspective, were any concerns raised and adequately (or inadequately, in retrospect) addressed? What might have been done differently by WiR or WP or others to have avoided the present situation?

  I'm willing to assume that there were good intentions throughout this process, but can't avoid feeling that something (or multiple things) should have brought these issues into focus long ago. It looks to me like a systemic problem, made worse by some instinctive / reactive responses where considered reflection was needed. Does this seem accurate / inaccurate / partially accurate, from your perspective? Any other thoughts? Thanks, 1.141.198.161 (talk) 22:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Heidi's job title is Student Wikipedia Editor. When I hired this batch of students last fall, I did tell them that I wanted to start a project to work on Book of Mormon pages (an initiative started by me). However, I hired my students based on their writing experience, not based on any specific experience with Book of Mormon topics. I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, so please ping me again if you have a follow-up question. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:28, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

• Satterfield does not have subject matter expertise as recognized by strong citations by academics in academic publications. Therefore his SPS is not reliable. Everything else you've said is irrelevant, though I'll note that student projects simply hosted by the university are also never reliable as published academic work and I would hope you haven't been adding them as sources. JoelleJay (talk) 04:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  Just because you've never encountered any issues before doesn't mean Helps is innocent. Have you read anything in this thread and the corresponding thread?? vghfr (✉ Talk) (✏ Contribs) 03:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  What does that have anything to do with the sanction being proposed here or the user it's being proposed against? I see virtually nothing in that !vote rationale that actually addresses such matters; the only thing that might come anywhere close is the vague anecdotal claim I have never once encountered a problem from other LDS members on Wikipedia. Left guide (talk) 03:18, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  First of all how do you know that I am a "fellow non-theists and atheists"? Second that source may look legitimate but its actually a non-expert self published source unaffiliated with the LDS Church, the LDS editors actually agreed that it was a source that should be removed/improved. I didn't destroy anything or change its eligibility, looking at other articles you've significantly authored (for example Claude AnShin Thomas) it looks like the issue may be with your sourcing practices and not mine. I apologize for causing you distress but I also have no idea what that would do with your vote unless you're voting in an AN/I discussion based solely on spiting another editor. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  You're mistaken again. My sourcing is entirely reliable, and is accurately reflected in the final GA review.[92] As can be seen in that link, the sources you removed[93] were not the versions of the sources I originally added,[94] however both sources support the same, accurate information. You neglected to actually read the article you edited, because if you had you would have noticed that the citation you removed said "Retrieved 2007-07-17", which refers only to this version supporting the material. You removed the newer version instead, which had been revised. You then left a citation needed tag in its place. As of today, there is a more current database listing on the revised site.[95] You couldn't be bothered with any of this, of course. One wonders if your poor judgment here is reflective of your other baseless criticism, such as that over at Claude AnShin Thomas, which has no known problems either. One wonders how much this kind of bias infects the rest of this discussion. Viriditas (talk) 04:24, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  But churchofjesuschristtemples.com/churchofjesuschristtemples.org is a non-expert self published source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  Opinions differ, and policies and guidelines dynamically change over time. When the article was written, those sources were acceptable, and the author was a computer scientist at BYU who had created the only site on the internet that collected and maintained statistical data about the temples. Viriditas (talk) 04:45, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think they ever were a computer scientist at BYU... I see a bachelor's degree in computer science from BYU but no teaching or research position. Today that source is not acceptable and I don't think that it was when the article was written either. Looking at the talk page it looks like the reliability was actually challenged all the way back in 2007 (Talk:Laie Hawaii Temple/Archive 1#Credibility of source). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, questioned by me. Did you read the discussion? Viriditas (talk) 05:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  I did... Didn't see a consensus that the source was reliable. I'm actually confused as to how that source remained in the article after that discussion. I also double checked and he was never a computer scientist at BYU (and even if he was I don't see how that would contribute to him being a subject matter expert in this context). And again none of this explains your vote here, even if everything you say is completely true your vote makes no sense. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, you are confused. I am the one who questioned the source in the first place and originally tagged it. As that discussion indicates, another editor arrived to discuss it, and I removed the tag. Should I have disagreed with myself? That seems to be what you are saying here. Viriditas (talk) 18:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  I must be confused, because this none of this substantiates "destroyed my work and has now made it eligible for delisting" nor does it substantiate that the author was a a computer scientist at BYU nor does it explain what any of this has to do with the larger discussion (besides possibly the author's BYU connection?). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  You are free to see my new comments up above that address your confusion. Viriditas (talk) 18:59, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  Ignoratio elenchi. vghfr (✉ Talk) (✏ Contribs) 17:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  Saying that every problem you've encountered on Wikipedia has come from non-theists and atheists is quite a remarkable statement. How are you able to determine the religious affiliation of your fellow editors? And even in the unlikely event that it is true, what relevance does it have for this issue? The question at hand is about one particular editor, not all LDS members or all atheists. CodeTalker (talk) 05:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Viriditas: woah, I just noticed that you're referring to me as "Horse Eye's Black" in both of the original comments here. What is that supposed to mean? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  It means my keyboard is broken Viriditas (talk) 18:14, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  How does a broken keyboard result in Horse Eye's Black? Its not a misspelling, its a pipe. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  Looks like a copy and paste from a typo. Viriditas (talk) 19:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  Ok sure. Thank you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  You probably need to take a step back from this discussion if you're looking this hard for implied slights. Parabolist (talk) 21:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support I would have suggested a warning, but in light of the extensive COIN discussion from 2020 that appears to have not resolved this issue, I think we'd just be back here sooner or later for another rodeo.CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 05:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, its not a new phenomena. They were warned in 2020, clearly warned by admin. scope_creep^Talk 13:40, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Generally concur with the comments by Awilley, Ocaasi, Pigsonthewing, Vanamonde93, and FyzixFighter. I do not see anything presented that rises to the level of requiring a topic ban, and I see plenty of evidence of the positive contributions this editor has made to Wikipedia. Gamaliel (talk) 13:24, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support - I find the general oppose reasonings to be particularly uncompelling and that it does not adequately address the evidence presented in this and the prior discussion. The attempt to present this discussion as a referendum on theist vs. non-theist editors completely misses the point of the evidence provided. The only oppose rationale thus far that strikes me as valid at all is Vanamond93's comment, but I ultimately agree more with jps's rejoinder to Vanamonde93's perspective. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support However much good faith (no pun intended) can be ascribed, this a situation which needs to be addressed directly. Treating this as a generalised COI issue to be addressed via a review of policy/guidelines elsewhere will not address the specific instutional arrangement which is engendering systemic failures with regard to core tenets - neutrality, due, fringe and reliable, independent sourcing. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 04:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support. The opposes all miss the point entirely; paid editing that directly touches mainspace is basically never acceptable. This is not a case where "positive contributions" matter, not at all. Even if done with the best of intentions, it completely distorts our processes; the fact always remains that someone whose paycheck is dependent on an organization is not going to make edits that might get them fired. Even the absolute best, most well-intentioned edits, otherwise policy-compliant in every way, will distort the balance of articles when made in a systematic way by large numbers of editors whose views are all distorted in the same way by the same financial incentive. Therefore, "they've made positive contributions" is never a defense against a WP:COI issue. It is simply never acceptable to seriously edit mainspace in areas where your employer has a strong perspective or vested interest. If this were any other organization, that would be obvious - would we accept the arguments above for an editor paid by Amazon or Microsoft or OpenAI or some cryptocurrency startup, who wanted to edit pages obviously relevant to those topics? From the Democratic and Republican parties, or from individual political think tanks who hire and send in numerous articulate, intelligent editors who share their views? How is this different? And how, exactly, could volunteer editors maintain neutrality in the face of that? Wikipedia:GLAM/Wikipedian in Residence isn't meant to be an exception to these rules - per the description on Meta In this context, there is a custom that Wikimedians in Residence do not edit about their institution, but rather share the knowledge of their institution. Furthermore, look at the examples there - it's meant to be an uncontroversial role for museum curators and the like, not for a church to employ people making sweeping sorts of edits on topics related to their faith or for a political think-tank to employ someone making edits about their politics. I think that we might want to look at some of the related policies in order to tighten them up and make them more clear, if people are somehow confused about all this, but this particular example is so far over the line that an immediate topic-ban is obvious. EDIT: Support shifted to strong to emphasize how strongly I feel that none of the rationales people are presenting are policy-based and how important it is to establish that they carry no weight. --Aquillion (talk) 15:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Aquillion, I agree in general with your take on this. COI and PE are often issues that result in editing that skews away from our principles, policies and guidelines. However, in this instance Rachel and her Posse (or crew) were never concerned about "making edits that might get them fired." Take a look at this conversation here [96] (Section title "Academic Freedom"). Essentially, throughout the whole Q & A it becomes clear that none of these editors are constrained by fear of an employer or policy. It doesn't take long to read. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 20:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

That makes no difference to me at all, for three reasons. First, WP:COI is unequivocal that the appearance of a COI is sufficient; it does not matter one iota how thoroughly someone is convinced (or can convince others) that they are capable of being impartial. It is a red line with no exceptions. Second, this is because influence can be subtle and sometimes not even obvious to those exercising it; words are cheap, actually making the people they paid to edit Wikipedia impartial is... impossible. Third, most importantly, even if someone manages to adhere rigorously to that freedom, and even if they are flawless immaculate saints incapable of ever considering who pays their paychecks, paid editing still allows the employer to "stack the deck" on particular subjects by hiring people to edit prolifically simply because they know what they believe and what areas they will edit in. This doesn't even have to be intentional; it's no different from the principle of WP:CANVASSing - unless they're hiring people totally at random, they're going to be stacking the deck based on who they hire and what pool they hire from. There are no situations where someone should be getting paid to make nontrivial mainspace edits on Wikipedia, or even to contribute to discussions without the extremely rigid restrictions placed on disclosed COIs (even those restrictions are truthfully too loose for me, but in this case no one even paid lip service to them.) This is actually important. Pushing back against COIs is vital to keeping Wikipedia functional; most pages and topic areas only have a few dozen really active users, or a few hundred at most, and even they have no real hope of keeping up with editors whose entire job is to edit Wikipedia. If we didn't maintain a hard line, any topic area that was targeted with paid editing would be rapidly drowned in it, with every discussion and every effort at consensus-building dominated by whoever their employer decided to employ. There's no such thing as someone being a "good egg" as a paid editor, because the problem is the entire structure behind their editing and what it would mean for Wikipedia if allowed to proliferate. --Aquillion (talk) 04:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree with your concerns about paid editing--we should get rid of it. I've never bought the argument that making it "ok" means that paid editors are more likely to divulge COI. Case in point here. --David Tornheim (talk) 06:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, English Wikipedia has done a gang buster job, in the past to get individuals who could contribute positively, on this platform to chase them away. The individual editor in question has done a great job with bringing individuals who might otherwise not choose to devout time and energy to improving content on this encyclopedia. Yet, there is this effort to limit that effort. What does this say about our community, but to enforce the view that English Wikipedia is not neutral, is exclusionary, and doesn't want individuals who might not align a certain way onto this encyclopedia, especially if they contribute within spaces which certain alignments oppose.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 18:30, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  who might otherwise not choose to devout time and energy ... no doubt an unintended Freudian slip; but that's precisely the problem, institutional devotion here has created a systemic inability to edit according to our policies and guidelines. It's irrelevant what one's intention is; the cascading effect of the relationships have created a swathe of articles and edits which are non-compliant with our tenets. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 02:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

  We don't have tenets on Wikipedia. We have policies and guidelines. These were applied to the best of Rachel's, her colleagues', and students's ability most of the time. And actually, their efforts and goals were the opposite of institutional devotional editing. There may be some obscure Mormon religious-character-articles that don't have good coverage. But, that is an oversight that is happening in other areas of Wikipedia in a likewise fashion. And I have to say, I have not seen you involved in any of the recent discussions on LDS/Book of Mormon talk pages. So rather than denigrate the hard work of other editors I recommend pitching in. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 19:44, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

  This response exemplifies the problem. This is not about well-intentioned mistakes - this is about a systemic COI failure to ensure neutrality, reliable sourcing and due. Every editor has a right to be concerned about this issue, irrespective of their efforts towards the particular topic, precisely because of the far reaching effects beyond the topic. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 23:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. What Gamaliel said. Also, I would like to support this Wikipedian in Residence, and acknowledge their contributions. Oliveleaf4 (talk) 19:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  Would you also like to acknowledge the concerns raised below (now within a collapse) by BilledMammal, which were also posted on your talk page? Remsense诉 19:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  Sure. Accepting or declining in-person meetings in the workplace is pretty standard in my world. By contrast, almost every single conversation in this online environment seems like nothing but trouble. I thought that meeting a person with shared interests and a public-facing job, in a public place might be a way to clear up misunderstandings. I did not know that suggesting people try talking things over in person is considered unacceptable here. Now that I think it over a little more, I suppose that if this is literally "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit," gosh knows what sort of awful, terrible person might show up at a library. Perhaps someone would delete the earlier remark for me? I've always respected the LDS for their wholesome lifestyles (even if I'm too attached to coffee to ever become LDS myself), and wouldn't want to create difficulties for the folks at BYU.-- Oliveleaf4 (talk) 00:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Rachel is a positive contributor. Sure there are missteps, but those can be worked through without going to the nuclear option. Similar to Rhododendrites, I would strongly urge Rachel to institute strict standards for the content she and her students produce and to keep a very close editorial eye on her students' edits, but overall I see her work as a net positive. Curbon7 (talk) 02:20, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
• Conditional support provided that the topic ban is interpreted in such a way as not to preclude commonsensically non-church-related topics such as the Bakemono no e which according to a presentation here [97] she worked with. All university libraries have a lot of holdings, and there are many ways she could continue to be a productive WiR without getting into Mormon archaeology and stuff. I also think some sort of restrictions or advisories/warnings for her student helpers could be worth considering. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 16:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
• I'm the one who opened the COIN in 2020. If Rachel would have simply agreed that she and her students would place a COI notice on article talk pages, I wouldn't be here. But she repeatedly resorted to arguing that it wasn't strictly required, so she wasn't going to comply with the request that she do so. Multiple other WiRs came in arguing that requiring her to do so would threaten the WiR system; they're here, too, opposing this. I hate to lose the BYU folks' contributions, which I believe are generally helpful, and which we'll probably lose if there's a Tban. But until Rachel agrees to disclose on article talk, even though not required to, I'm a support for a topic ban from LDS articles for Rachel and her students. Rachel Helps (BYU), please, just agree to disclose. It's such a small request. Valereee (talk) 18:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

• At this point I'm happy to comply, the difference between the TOS and the guideline seems like a hill I don't feel like dying on right now. Just tell me how you want me to do it. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'm sincerely glad to hear it. Best practices, even if not required, is a good thing for someone who is a WiR and in education to try to follow. You and your students can disclose at article talk by adding the {{Connected contributor|User1=username}} template into the headers. The first person to edit a particular article can create the banner and put their own username as User1, and others who follow along can just insert |User2=, etc. There's documentation for other parameters at Template:Connected_contributor, but really I'm satisfied with a simple list of COI contributors.

  If you'll agree to make that routine going forward for all edits to articles related to BYU/LDS by you and your students, broadly construed, I'll strike my support for a tban. Valereee (talk) 17:43, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Valereee This seems reasonable. I'm curious what the threshold would be for adding the template. I ask because I've often seen Rachel reverting vandalism or other unhelpful edits or just fixing a source here and there. A quick look at her contributions shows that there are over 900 articles where she's made only 1 or 2 edits. It should be possible to find the intersection of her edits with articles within the LDS wikiproject, but I would expect the list of articles to be at least several hundred long. Should there be some threshold for what constitutes a substantive edit, or would you prefer having her place the template even for minor edits? Or would a more narrow range of articles be reasonable, like articles specifically related to the BYU, LDS Church, BYU people, etc.? ~Awilley (talk) 19:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Awilley, just off the top of my head: any edit that could reasonably be marked as minor -- typo fixes, grammar fixes, expanding or combining or renaming a reference -- doesn't need a COI tag. If there's content work, and it's related to BYU/LDS, tag it. Willing to be persuaded that this isn't the appropriate threshold, though! I wouldn't want to have to tag an article talk every time I edited something for the first time, that would double the work on many minor edits and maybe discourage me from making them. I don't want this to be onerous, as I do value the contributions these folks are making, and I appreciate BYU's willingness to fund a WiR to provide access to its records. Valereee (talk) 20:16, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• Valereee, why not make it required? What harm would that do? It seems rather bizarre to make it a condition when it's not a requirement, especially for so qualified an editor as Rachel, who is a huge asset here. (We aren't making it a condition for other COI editors, many of whom have dubious motives, making the difference in treatment even more bizarre.) The solution is to make it required for all COI editors. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:51, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Valjean: - To make this a "requirement" rather than currently what it is as a "best practice," would require community consensus. No one person can make it a requirement. Someone would have to initiate an RFC. And there is probably good reason for this not be a requirement as deemed by the community. For me, the reason for "strongly discouraged" (or whatever) is probably to cover most of the circumstances, with some flexibility, in contrast to overbearing rigidity. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 18:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  As said in the opening of The Warriors (film): Can you dig it? ---Steve Quinn (talk) 18:15, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  Hi Steve. I understand and largely agree about the proper procedure. What considerations might there be against making it a requirement? What harm would it do? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:12, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  I believe I indicated the potential harm. With the wording as it is, there is some flexibility rather than strong rigidity. The community seems to operate best with flexibility. In any case, this is veering off topic in this forum. You might want to open a discussion about this elsewhere. Maybe the Village Pump or the COI talk page or wherever else? Also, anyone feel free to hat this part of this ANI. ----Steve Quinn (talk) 18:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Valjean, because we'll never get buy in from other WiRs. Unfortunately it's just that simple.

  The thing is, it doesn't need to be required in order for it to be best practices, and when multiple other editors are requesting you to do something that isn't strictly required in policy and only costs you three seconds of time, why would you not want to comply with those requests? Valereee (talk) 18:22, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per Vanamonde93. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Vanamonde93 and Awilley Springee (talk) 02:39, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Topic ban for Thmazing

On the basis of this discussion, I think we need to topic ban User:Thmazing from pages related to Association of Mormon Letters broadly construed. jps (talk) 13:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Editors may also consider a wider topic ban on Mormonism. Note the time of this post, editors commenting before 04:13, 15 March 2024 will not have seen this post. starship.paint (RUN) 04:13, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support This user has a large number of COIs, and refuses to discuss them. They are still editing, but will no longer engage in questions regarding editing about themself and their friends. Big Money Threepwood (talk) 15:10, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. As he is a former president of AML and current Managing Editor of its journal Irreantum, I see Thmazing as the "highest-ranking" editor in this COI group (that I know of), and thus the most culpable. Far more culpable than Rachel Helps, who is listed as AML's Discord Admin (and I believe is a current or past board member). Thmazing should have been the one to disclose, require the disclosure, or otherwise reign in, all this undisclosed COI editing coming from AML board members, staff, and other associated editors. A TBAN from AML is really too little IMO, I would at least TBAN from all of Mormonism (same scope as Rachel Helps) for the same reasons: prevent him from not only editing about AML but also about its "product," which is Mormon literature, and thus by extension, Mormonism itself. Heck, due to his high ranking nature and his particularly obstructive involvement in this entire fiasco, I'd also just support a straight site ban. But support as certainly better than nothing. Levivich (talk) 16:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  This is phrased a little confusingly... until the end of that paragraph, I thought that you had declared yourself the current managing editor of Irreantum.--Elmidae (talk · contribs) 19:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  That would have been a real plot twist! 😂 Thanks for pointing it out, I added a couple words to clarify. Levivich (talk) 21:19, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support per sound analysis above. I looked at his last article Draft:Mike Pekovich, originally created in the mainspace: it is blatantly promotional ("His work on woodcraft [...] has influenced thousands of woodworkers over decades") as much as badly sourced (two non-independent primary sources). Cavarrone 16:38, 14 March 2024 (UTC) ADDENDUM: I also support a wider topic ban from Mormonism, broadly construed, per Levivich, starship.paint and Steve Quinn. Also based on my striked content I suspect there could be other COIs in the mix (in addition to some obvious WP:CIR issues). --Cavarrone 12:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• • The draft you link to is problematic, but I don't see how it relates to the AML. Jessintime (talk) 16:58, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
    • You're right, I had taken for granted that the subject was an LSD member. I've strikken the side comment, which is btw telling of this user's way of editing. --Cavarrone 17:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
      • If anything that speaks to a broader issue, perhaps include a ban on article creation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:49, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support maybe they will miraculously recover from the unfortunate illness which prevents their typing, but hopefully they take their "breathing" time to learn how to not (Personal attack removed). In this particular case, however, Thmazing's obstructionist behaviour annoyed me enough to begin investigating in the first place, so perhaps we should thank him. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  @AirshipJungleman29: I've removed the personal attack. Please remain civil when describing behaviour from other editors. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 18:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Femke: That's bollocks, mate colleague. We had our own page called that very thing which still directs to a page on meta. So AsJm29 should have called Thamazing a jerk, I guess. ——Serial Number 54129 20:17, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  And there is a reason the meta page is no longer has that title. More people considered this a personal attack. Neither words are conducive to resolving issues of COI editing and civility on Thmazing's part. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:32, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support per the above comments. Jessintime (talk) 16:58, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support, but per Levivich, would easily support more, as this is ridiculously lenient. Grandpallama (talk) 22:57, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• I agree that the past president of Association of Mormon Letters shouldn't be editing articles about that group, but I'd like to have all such conflicted editors able to make suggestions and {{edit COI}} requests on the talk page. With niche subjects in particular, we need to balance our need for an accurate article against our desire to have the independent editors making the decisions about what to include. It's not ultimately helpful to the main goal if we TBAN anyone who actually knows anything about the subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:14, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  If they are the only people who know the things about a subject, that subject may not be worthy of encyclopedic coverage. It may have not gained sufficiently significant attention by the world at large and may not be suitable encyclopedic matter. —Alalch E. 23:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support lack of candor and accountability, repeatedly citing their own off-wiki blog posts, even this topic ban is too lenient, it should be a topic ban from Mormonism at least. starship.paint (RUN) 02:10, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support the topic ban described above per all the comments about COI and lack of candor. I also support a broader ban to include all LDS/Mormon topics per Starship.paint. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 02:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support the subject obviously has skin in the game regarding AML and they fail to adhere to COI policy. I agree that the ban should include all LDS/Mormon topics. They do not understand how to edit according to policies and guidelines. Also, I am looking for evidence that they actually cited content in articles with their own blogposts. If this is true then that is totally unacceptable as one of the primary no-no's on Wikipedia. Anyone have any diffs about them citing article content with their blog posts? I read about it in the linked conversation but was unable to discern on which article(s) this happened. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:04, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
  • @Steve Quinn: - perhaps you can look at the articles Elias: An Epic of the Ages (most obvious, look here first), Adam and Eve in Mormonism, and Brad Teare. starship.paint (RUN) 03:38, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: - So yes, it is true. Thmazing has been citing content with their blogposts. This is disconcerting. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 16:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support; Thmazing appears to be both more culpable and less able to recognize and fix problems with their editing. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from Mormonism, broadly construed. As User talk:Thmazing § Conflict of interest (permalink) shows, the editor repeatedly cited their self-published blog posts (from Substack, Blogspot, and at least one personal website) in Mormonism-related articles, including articles not directly related to the Association for Mormon Letters. These are clear violations of the policy against promotion and the guideline against citation spam. New editors who do this are indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia as a routine matter; see the reports on the username noticeboard for examples. The editor's use of deflection when asked about their promotional edits and conflict of interest (e.g. "I know you just got out of arbitration yourself and so I can understand why you'd want to share the love, but I feel like the conversation we've had has already solved this problem.") is highly concerning and shows that they are not an appropriate fit for this topic area. — Newslinger talk 04:45, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support, per extensive discussion above and elsewhere. JoelleJay (talk) 05:21, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support, per evidence presented by others. Lavalizard101 (talk) 12:01, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support site ban for high conflict-of-interest, topic-ban as second choice - Refer to my comments in re the Rachel Helps topic-ban above; they apply equally here, with the caveat that we have community banned editors for editing blatantly to further their organisation's goals on the grounds of irreconciliable conflict-of-interest. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 18:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Generally concur with the comments by Awilley, Ocaasi, Pigsonthewing, Vanamonde93, and FyzixFighter. I do not see anything presented that rises to the level of requiring a topic ban, and I see plenty of evidence of the positive contributions this editor has made to Wikipedia. Gamaliel (talk) 22:45, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: @Oliveleaf4: I think you may have voted in the wrong section? This section is for a topic ban on different user named Thmazing. If that's the case, @Viriditas: might want to re-evaluate the "per Gamaliel" vote. ~Awilley (talk) 06:13, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: @Oliveleaf4: I also think you may have voted in the wrong section! This section is for a topic ban on different user named Thmazing. If that's the case, @Viriditas: might want to re-evaluate the "per Gamaliel" vote. ---06:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)Steve Quinn (talk)

@Awilley: @Steve Quinn: Thank you! You are correct, and I've moved my !vote accordingly. Gamaliel (talk) 13:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per Gamaliel. Viriditas (talk) 00:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as per Gamaliel also. Telling the BYU Wikimedian in Residence not to edit on Mormonism? We don't want to go there, folks. If we need to work with them on some aspects of wiki policy, let's not harangue them online, let's arrange for an experienced person to meet up with them. I might have a chance to go out to Utah next year, and I'd be happy to sit down with them and edit. Oliveleaf4 (talk) 04:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  Why don't we want to "go there"? What are you implying? The community has been trying to "work with them" on aspects of policy for years. It hasn't worked. Why are you so confident your in-person visit is going to be successful? Do you have a track record of success with such things? jps (talk) 11:18, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  It is creepy to offer to meet in real life with editors you don't know to help them avoid a potential topic ban. Big Money Threepwood (talk) 19:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  +1 Goldsztajn (talk) 04:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  Fwiw this is a WiR at a university whom anyone can walk up to and not some editor editing off their couch at home so if anything the suggestion raises the opposite sort of sussiness. Anyway… RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 05:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  One word: safeguarding. One wants to interact with another Wikipedian one does so on Wikipedia or at an event where Wikipedians have *themselves* *chosen* to attend. We should not be treating casual contact amongst editors in RL with anything other than the most serious concern for unintended consequences. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 05:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  Am attempting to support efforts by a WiR, not give them a bad time! (Have attempted to comment in the other section.)Oliveleaf4 (talk) 18:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support The evidence is clear here as well. Currently this editor is a net-negative to Wikipedia and cost us time and energy. I cannot understand this continual impulse to let folk get away with bad behaviour and breaking policy that are clearly understood and followed by the majority of editors. That was a long conversation that was held in 2020 by administration, it was very clearly stated. Combined with the analysis done recently, makes it clear as day. scope_creep^Talk 13:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  This is quite rude and suggests an egregious misreading of my editing history. Some cherrypicked flaws in my editing past do not a "net-negative to Wikipedia" make. Has anyone actually looked at my entire editing history or are you just believing what you're told?

  I appreciate the fellow above who admitted he had made erroneous assumptions about an article I had started but his errors were more numerous than the one he apologized for.

  I know this isn't the place for it, but I feel obliged to point out that what's happening here is largely an on-Wikipedia doxxing of people who, in good faith, made it possible to do so.

  (Also, I might add that the idea that I've only heard about Fram in one Discord server and that you can guess which one it is is charming. She has quite the reputation as I'm sure many of you know.)

  Anyway, carry on. If you could do it without the ad hominem attacks, however, I would appreciate it. Thmazing (talk) 22:34, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support - Same general rationale as my !vote regarding Rachel Helps, but with Thmazing there appears to be even less mitigating circumstances as they have not engaged with this discussion in a remotely satisfactory fashion, whereas RH has at least attempted to make amends. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from Mormonism, per above. BilledMammal (talk) 04:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support I'm here particularly because of the refusal to acknowledge the problem. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 04:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Support I haven’t yet decided what I think about the proposal for Rachel Helps, but given the level of incivility and defensiveness Thmazing shows on their user talk, combined with their substantive behavior with content and CoI, I think a topic ban might be warranted. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 07:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from Mormonism, broadly construed. Even on top of the obvious COI issue for the reasons explained in my reply regarding Helps above, their replies on their talk page about it are not acceptable and show both an unwillingness to assume good faith and a WP:BATTLEGROUND view of Wikipedia, which is particularly incompatible with COI editing: This they thought better of and replaced, but the replacement is no better. I understand your feelings may be hurt and I don't want to pile on and Wikipedia is not a sport where people should strive to win or lose and I apologize if I made you feel you needed to win are not acceptable ways to respond to a serious concern. This is in some ways even worse - I'm particularly concerned by I think you might feel better about things if you report me. I mean—you're Fram! You have a reputation to maintain! (I was lurking on a Discord channel earlier today and you came up. "What a coincidence!" I said to myself) coupled with I'm not sure how you all ended up here (perhaps you're on another Discord channel complaining about me?) - I'm not sure how to interpret those two sentences other than, well, 1. Thmazing believes that people coordinate Wikipedia edits on Discord, and that this is common and normal enough to immediately leap to that assumption when COI concerns come up, and 2. Thmazing themselves is in a Discord channel which was discussing Fram around that time. The logical conclusion, to me, seems to be that Thmazing leaped to that conclusion because that is, in fact, the nature of the discord channel referenced in the first sentence, and they assume that everyone else is doing the same thing because they're approaching Wikipedia as a battleground. --Aquillion (talk) 16:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  In fairness, we did have a massive controversy which involved harassment and Fram, and all that seemed to come from that is that Fram has a reputation.... for being a punching bag whenever he inserts himself in anything involving any sort of controversy and getting fucked over whenever his name comes up in conjunction with anything remotely near WP:HARASS-related content (though in this case I will defend his block as justified, just not as performed by Primefac). This is not to justify Fram's actions or exonerate Thmazing, whose actions smack of EEML or WTC just from a brief glance, and get just as ugly as them if scrutinised. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 20:55, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment Thmazing has been creating a lot of redirects such as "John grisham" (note the capitalization) and seems to be unaware that these are superfluous (unless I’m very much mistaken) due to case insensitivity. Is there a way to bulk RfD like multiple AfDs? RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 10:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@RadioactiveBoulevardier: - actually Thmazing is correct in this regard, so no deletions should occur. For example, our current TFA George Griffith versus George griffith. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

How so? If I put “George griffith” into the search bar and press the button (ignoring suggestions ofc), I get sent to the article. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 13:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I see, we did different ways, @RadioactiveBoulevardier:. I typed the URL with "George_griffith". [98] starship.paint (RUN) 13:28, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

In any case, there’s a reason these redirects are not created systematically. Still, I suppose they’re cheap. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 13:33, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not particularly interested in defending myself here even though a lot of what has been said is more game-of-telephone than evidence and would never hold up in a court of law. It also makes me sad how corrosive discussions can become. That said, I thought I might add a couple bits of information for consideration.

1) I was editing AML-related articles long before I was involved in the AML. I agree that's no excuse for failing to disclose COI when it became a thing, but honestly, it never really occurred to me. I was just doing what I'd been doing before.

2) Based on the specific edits that have been used as evidence against me, it seems like we're talking about maybe a dozen of my roughly 8000 total edits---or 0.15%. Even if we quadruple my infractions, which seems a number higher than likely, it's less than half of one percent of my total edits. So some of the hyperbole about me being a threat to the very existence of Wikipedia is wild.

3) Something I've noticed in these discussions before is that a few facts can become monstrous through snowballing assumptions. I would encourage anyone who thinks #2 is a lie to please check my contribs for yourself. I genuinely consider myself a gnome and a fairy and you'll see that I turn Wikipedia green. In a wide variety of subjects.

4) This conversation makes me think Wikipedia needs to have a new conversation about what COI even means. We have some cowboys that go around enforcing, imo, absurdly broad standards. I'm not sure, by their logic, that I should be allowed to edit places or people within the United States, or with the arts of any sort, or possibly things that metabolize. I know you all think I'm exaggerating here. Good! I agree!

I don't anticipating posting here again. I've found that a few people (not you, of course, other people) just want a fight, while I believe in a troll-free Wikipedia. I suppose if I hadn't identified myself, none of this would have been possible. But I'm not afraid to be identified. And I'm up for being called out on my errors. What I'm not cool with is people saying things like I'm a net-negative on Wikipedia. That's not the Wikipedia culture I know. And it's not representative of the work I've done here over the last 20 years (17 with this account). Thank you for reading. Thmazing (talk) 23:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I know I said I didn't plan to butt in again, but about an hour after I posted, a Google Alert sent me to an off-Wikipedia blogpost outing my offline identity and describing me and my evil ways and nefarious means. (I will not be providing a link.) But the thing that made me laugh was his primary argument that I have a financial motivation in all this and it made me wonder if that's what everyone here has been thinking? Finances have always been the way I think of COI and you won't find edits where I cross that line. See if you can see what these have in common:

Money made editing Irreantum: $0

Money made as president of AML: $0

Money made editing Peculiar Pages: $0

Money made editing Wikipedia: $0

I suppose in my mind these are all part of my efforts to make the world better using the tools I have. Anyway, if that was the (unspoken) subcutaneous concern, I thought I should address it. Thmazing (talk) 00:52, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

When you say "a Google Alert sent me to an off-Wikipedia blogpost outing my offline identity" you do realize all that information can be found on your userpage? Jessintime (talk) 17:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The post at…that place makes some easily verifiable claims. Other sources indicate you wholly own Peculiar Pages and have a senior position at Irreantum, so the claim that no money explicitly changed hands is not only irrelevant, but indicative of the reasons why editors (including myself) think a topic ban might be helpful to the project.

Like, unilaterally removing a notability tag with the diff summary you did? Going about it that way is horribly disruptive to processes and doing so with a CoI is unconscionable to anyone engaged in the NPP or deletion processes (as I am).

And by the way, unlike Nihonjoe you by definition can’t be outed, at least not while you have links to your public-facing socials and your personal website on your website. That’s not outing, it’s muckraking. If you want to claim any sort of protection for your identity, blank your user page.

Frankly, if I had a mop I’d have given you a 24-hour block for the particular flavor of calculated incivility you’ve shown multiple editors on your user talk.

Through your repeatedly telling people things to the general effect of "I am not a crook! Was it because of [insert personal attack] that you thought so?" when you know as well as they and now we do what the diffs say, you’ve turned a not that big complaint into something that a pseudonymous WikiHater thought was worth posting about.

In fact, it should have been dealt with sooner. An admin should come along and close this because the more people vote !support, the more I get unpleasant feelings related to having just reread To Kill a Mockingbird

RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 19:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• @Thmazing: - first, money doesn’t have to be made while editing. The very existence of the Wikipedia pages, in a promotional way, may generate money for the entities. That isn’t my biggest concern, though. That would be that within the last year you literally cited your own blog, multiple times [99] within the Elias: An Epic of the Ages. One month after that you declared that it was your blog [100]. Citing yourself is blindingly inappropriate. starship.paint (RUN) 02:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

  I've copped to that and apologized and not touched the article since. I hope that these (rare) instances will lead to other editors improving the articles with sources they see as appropriate. But of course I'm not going back to them myself. I can't imagine a better way to get more people mad at me.

  Also, I hope if I'm not responding quickly there aren't more accusations of me avoiding the conversation. This is a dreadfully busy moment for me in almost every way. Plus, most of the commentary hasn't really been to me, more at me. Thank you, @Starship.paint for being so civil. (And I know you understand busy!) Thmazing (talk) 05:25, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

  Oh, hey---serious question:

  Considering how often I could have cited myself, I rarely have. Usually I use some other source because it seems like the right thing to do. Those few exceptions are for information I didn't think was available elsewhere. I appreciate people don't appreciate the exception and I'm suitably cowed, but that gets to my question.

  There's been effort to have scientists and historians and others bring their expertise to Wikipedia. And I have to imagine, especially with a scientist bringing new information into the world, if they do so they have little choice but to cite themselves. Although I've generally avoided citing myself (as the rarity of instances proves) I've always thought that this drive to get wild-haired scientists to bring their work to the public via Wikipedia suggested a backside-covering precedent. I wonder how this understanding of the intersection between expertise and COI may have changed? Thmazing (talk) 05:41, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

  Scientists do not need to cite themselves to contribute their expertise. Science topics generally disallow primary sources (research articles), so adding info sourced to one's own research publications isn't compliant with PAGs anyway. Issues would really only arise when editing a very narrow subject, when the editor is so prolific writing review papers that all the most up-to-date consensus info is cited to them, or when the editor has a huge number of collaborators and can't avoid citing one of them. JoelleJay (talk) 06:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Thmazing: - I am afraid your response and past actions show what seems to me a lack of understanding of Wikipedia's key policies and guidelines. By citing your own self-published blog for information I didn't think was available elsewhere, you are violating WP:COI, WP:SPS (part of WP:V) and also WP:DUE (part of WP:NPOV). It is my opinion that any topic that desperately needs your blog as a source probably does not meet WP:GNG for an article on Wikipedia, and any article that meets WP:GNG does not need your blog. starship.paint (RUN) 00:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  That's not quite what I said. All the articles are worthy of existing sans me. I only cited myself for specific details I didn't have other secondary sources for but which I thought would be valuable to someone visiting the page. I now understand I should not have done that. Lesson learned. If my goal were to get my name all over Wikipedia, such edits would be greater than one one-thousandth of my total edits. I mean---I've written a lot of stuff. I've written about thousands of books and hundreds of movies and plenty of other stuff. If I were the sly ne'er-do-well described in this discussion, you could find hundreds more examples of self-citation to harp on. Since that's not that case, I would greatly appreciate a bit of WP:AGF. I'm trying to be a good citizen. I believe deeply in the value and importance of Wikipedia and my edit history proves I have added to that value. I'm not touching the articles I've been accused of COI on, even when it's absurd and I have stuff to add. For instance, I had collected a bunch of more recent sources on Brad Teare but I've only posted them to the talk page, even though I can't imagine a reason why I shouldn't be able to edit that page. Thmazing (talk) 17:12, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I only cited myself for specific details I didn't have other secondary sources for but which I thought would be valuable to someone visiting the page. That's what WP:NPOV says not to do: include details that aren't in secondary sources that you personally think are valuable to someone visiting the page. If the only person who wrote about a specific detail is you, then you're not the person who should be adding that detail to the Wikipedia article. What you did there was use Wikipedia to promote your own viewpoint--to promote details nobody else thought were important enough to publish. That is "sly ne're-do-well." That's not being a good citizen, that's putting your head in the sand and pretending that bias and COI don't apply to you. That you don't understand or accept this, is why we have COI rules: people with COI have biases that prevent them from viewing something objectively; in particular, COI comes with a bias that makes everyone think their COI doesn't come with a bias, or the bias doesn't matter. It's inherent, it's why COI rules exist in the first place. Levivich (talk) 17:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Thmazing: - you've asked for a bit of WP:AGF, I assure you that's exactly what I have given to you. I've never called you a sly ne'er-do-well, neither have I said that you have a goal were to get my name all over Wikipedia. I simply think that you do not know (yet) if you should, or should not, add certain information to an article, per WP:DUE and WP:SPS, which you should thoroughly review. That is evident from your response: I only cited myself for specific details I didn't have other secondary sources for but which I thought would be valuable to someone visiting the page. starship.paint (RUN) 07:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support for disruption and ignoring NPOV. If Thmazing thinks Fram's comment is unclear[101] or that the draft linked above is NPOV, Fram's command of English, or at least the formal English in encyclopedias, may be better. It seems like a sarcastic comment to me, but either way there's been enough egregious behaviour that the camel was crushed long before the Belgian comment. Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 22:17, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  Also, tagging is still editing. 22:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC) Sincerely, Novo Tape^{My Talk Page} 22:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from Mormonism, broadly construed: Thmazing says that their COI editing is a very low percentage of their Wikipedia edits — 0.15%, according to their completely made-up estimate. If that's the case, and it's not a big deal to avoid all the pages where COI is likely, then a topic ban should be easy to comply with. In general, I'm unimpressed with Thmazing's statements — if they're still calling the COI concerns "absurd" after all this conversation, then they're not getting the point. If they really want to avoid a topic ban, being less defensive and dismissive would help. Toughpigs (talk) 23:37, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  The conversation with Fram (linked above by Novo Tape) shows that Thmazing prefers deflecting away from the issue of declaring COI by essentially verbally assaulting Fram. (Redacted) Being snarky doesn't work. (Redacted) One more thing, this is not social website where we host links from personal blogs or links from other trivial venues. Thmazing, try doing some reading to learn about editing on Wikipedia. I suggest you start with reading WP:N and then follow the links from there. But, candidly, I don't see that as happening. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:19, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from Mormonism, broadly construed: Note that this is an ongoing issue, Thmazing continues to join in discussions without disclosing relevant conflicts of interest [102] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:16, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  (Redacted) ---Steve Quinn (talk) 18:27, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Canvassing concerns

BoyNamedTzu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Awilley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I am concerned that there has been canvassing involved in discussions related to Rachel Helps (BYU). In January 2024 there was a case here at AN/I involving myself and Rachel Helps (BYU). Both BoyNamedTzu and Awilley broke long no-edit stretches (21 November 2023-8 January 2024 and 9 December 2023-7 January 2024 respectively) to take positions strongly in support of Rachel Helps (BYU). Neither disclosed a conflict of interest. The same thing happened again with this VP/M-AN/I thread, both broke long no-edit stretches (8 January 2024-12 March 2024 and 17 February 2024-13 March 2024) to take positions strongly in support of Rachel Helps (BYU). BoyNamedTzu did not disclosed a COI, Awilley only disclosed after being asked. In between 8 January 2024 and 13 March 2024 BoyNamedTzu made no edits and Awilley made only four. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, I was alerted to the existence of these threads by pings or mentions because I had participated in a previous discussion about you and Rachel Helps.

• January 9th AN/I thread: That thread was actually about topic banning or admonishing you for hounding Helps. You say I took a strong position, but I didn't even !vote. Here's the only comment I made in that thread (replying inline to another user to gently correct what I saw as a misrepresentation). Here's the comment that mentioned me in that discussion.
• February-March VP/M thread: I got what looks like a more deliberate ping to that thread in this comment. You will undoubtedly find that suspicious because it was the same user who pinged me to the earlier thread. In any case, there seemed to be a lot of misunderstandings and accusations flying around, so I made a similarly meandering comment trying to clear up a few issues and replied to one user. Unfortunately I can't provide diffs to my two posts because they were caught up in an oversight, but if you scroll up from [103] you'll find it.
• March 13 AN/I: I got pinged to the above thread by its creator in this diff. You can see my response above where I wrote, "in case it wasn't clear, I'm commenting here as an involved editor." I try to say something like that whenever I !vote on AN/I threads related to religion because I've recused myself from taking admin actions in that topic area.

I didn't get any emails or off-wiki communication about these threads, and I'm not on any email lists or text threads or discord servers related to Wikipedia. From a search of my inbox, the last Wikipedia related email I received was in September 2023 from a user asking for details on how I created a certain .gif animation. As for why I chose to comment in the above threads: I have a soft spot when it comes to seeing gnomes getting attacked and sucked into wiki-drama.

Speaking of pings and notifications, it looks like the "userlinks" templates you used above do not automatically generate pings, so I got no notification that you had opened this thread. You might want to consider officially notifying @BoyNamedTzu:. ~Awilley (talk) 19:12, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

The community appears to have now endorsed my concerns around Help. I am disturbed that you are only now disclosing your BYU COI despite participating in a number of discussions about the BYU wikipedia editing program. Also, given what we now know clearly not a gnome and never was. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I would also note that since pinging you to that first discussion P-Makoto has disclosed a series of COIs. In hindsight that appears to be on-wiki canvassing. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:48, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Then the canvassing issue you have is with P-Makoto, for the first two discussions, not Awilley. starship.paint (RUN) 02:17, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with that. I was just writing that I'm disappointed in Awilley. In the Jan 9th thread, that's one BYU alum pinging another BYU alum for backup in a thread involving BYU's WiR, and none of the three of them disclosed it. In the VPM, again a BYU alum pings another BYU alum, again accusing HEB of "hounding" the BYU WiR, and again, neither of the BYU alums disclose their connection. This is all in an effort to shut down HEB when HEB was right all along about the COI, in fact it's a much bigger and broader COI issue, we now know, than just involving the BYU WiR. This was super deceitful. I understod when I read "I'm commenting here as an involved editor," and I thought, ah ha, that's why. This is very not kosher, you should all know better than to participate in discussions about COI by your alma mater without disclosing that it's your alma mater. In hindsight, we now know, that almost all of the people defending the BYU WiR from COI allegations were also BYU people (or AML people, or both). This was all highly deceptive, which is extra disappoint when it all comes from a Christian church (yeah I said it). Levivich (talk) 02:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I would say that this is an issue of lack of disclosure of Awilley's part, which is, the more I think about it, pretty disturbing, for the reasons you mentioned. starship.paint (RUN) 02:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

You're right, with that fact pattern laid out Awilley's conduct looks like harassment. They selectively participated in discussions about topics they had a COI with at a time in which they were not generally active on wikipedia in order to confront or inhibit the work of another editor (me). That would be unbecoming of any editor, from an admin it really begs the question of whether they should remain an admin. It is par for the course for disruptive editors to cry "Harassment!" while engaging in harassment, but I rarely see an admin do it and never without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:38, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

you should all know better than to participate in discussions about COI by your alma mater without disclosing that it's your alma mater. We talked thoroughly on my userpage why the conflict of interest policy left me with the impression that it asked about current relationships and not terminated ones, and I apologized for that, both to you personally and in the Village Pump thread. This thread is the first that I learned Awilley had any connection to BYU. I pinged Awilley, along with Drmies and Mackensen, because they had participated in a past ANI thread about HEB and I was of the impression HEB's behavior was veering into incivility again. There are ways of communicating about COI other than by violating the harassment and privacy policies. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 02:40, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

If you pinged people because of their past interactions with me and not their past interactions with Rachel on a discussion purely about Rachel's conduct that is not appropriate. Especially if you did it because "I was of the impression HEB's behavior was veering into incivility again" that would be canvassing with a specific goal in mind, all three are admins, were you trying to get me blocked? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:43, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I get that at the time, you didn't know Awilley was a BYU alum. But Awilley knew. I now count at least half a dozen editors who have some affiliation with BYU/AML -- almost all of them current or former employees -- who engaged in discussions about undisclosed BYU/AML COI editing without disclosing their affiliation. If all of them were part of one single conspiracy, that would be bad. But if they all each independently decided to surreptitiously influence the COI investigation without disclosing their own COI, that's even worse. That's like: what the heck are they teaching at BYU, that there are so many BYU folks who don't seem to grasp basic ethics -- and not a matter of the wording of Wikipedia policies, or even ethics tied to any religion or culture, but cross-cultural basic ethics, like that if you are going to act as a "judge," "juror," or "witness," you'd better disclose your connection to the "defendant." That's so basic. Everyone involved in these discussions about BYU/AML COI who has any connection past or present with BYU or AML should disclose that, or else stay out of these discussions. And it seems like every day I'm learning of someone else who has been involved, has the connection, but didn't disclose. Levivich (talk) 02:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@Levivich, up until today I didn't know that P-Makoto was a BYU alumnus. And frankly knowing it now doesn't really change anything for me. She's just an editor with whom I cross paths with occasionally. There's only one Wikipedia editor I've ever knowingly met in real life. We went to lunch together and had a nice talk. Maybe he was a BYU alumnus too; I don't actually know. And it doesn't matter. Editors on Wikipedia should be judged by their words and actions, not the religion they were born into, the culture they were brought up in, or even the schools they attended. ~Awilley (talk) 05:27, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, judged for actions like choosing to participate in multiple discussions about undisclosed COI by your alma mater without disclosing that it was your alma mater (though I appreciate that you finally did). Levivich (talk) 05:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is being judged by the religion they were born into, the culture they were brought up in, or even the schools they attended... They are being judged by their words and actions *alone*. Throwing out these red herrings and insinuations of bigotry against good faith editors is not constructive. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, and my concern at the time was that HEB pushed too hard, evening when not gaining support from other editors for their views (still feel that way, but it's not relevant here). This situation is different, and I feel seriously misled by Nihonjoe's failure to disclose their COI. Mackensen (talk) 00:44, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I will happily acknowledge that Rachel is my friend and the person who recruited me to Wikipedia and taught me how to edit. When I have seen her being relentlessly bullied by other editors, I have defended her. She has never asked me to do this. She has never reuqested that i participate, in any way, in any discussion about her work. She has never canvassed me or anybody else that I know about in order to solicit responses or participation. But the grenades that you and others have thrown her way have a real life impact on an actual human being that I care about, and that often propels me to action. I am conversant enough with Wikipedia conventions to find my way here without being canvassed.

I will soon be deactivating my account and leaving Wikipedia for good. I have no desire to continue to edit, and I will pledge to make no more edits to any pages. BoyNamedTzu (talk) 19:52, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

And did you see it on the discord? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

No. I did not see it on the Discord, which I have not participated in for months. I saw it in my real-life interactions with my friend. BoyNamedTzu (talk) 20:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

For what its worth I hope you stick around, in the future please either avoid such crossovers between your personal life and wikipedia or disclose them. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:50, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Further canvassing and meatpuppetry concerns

This was apparently instigated by a joe job
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Luke Olson (BYU) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) created an account for the purpose of !voting against a topic ban. In a discussion on their talk page, they revealed there is a discord channel where BYU editors are discussing and are opposed to this topic ban - I am concerned that other !votes may have been canvassed by that channel. In particular, I'm concerned about Oliveleaf4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who returned after a two month hiatus and after a few hours of editing elsewhere arrived to vote against this proposal - their first ever participation at ANI. I note Awilley has already been raised above, but I'm also concerned about them; they deny being a member of this discord channel, but there is clearly some connection as Luke Olson pinged them when restoring their !vote, saying I'm going to ping User:Awilley so he sees if someone deletes my message again. In general, I think this is evidence that stronger and broader action is required, perhaps similar to what was used against the Church of Scientology. BilledMammal (talk) 04:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC) I wasn't around for any Scientology saga, but I think if broader action is required, it would likely be geared towards reducing time wasted by college students with the most poriferous opsec I've ever seen, rather than what I presume was a real operation by serious people. Remsense诉 04:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC) what did end up happening with scientology anyways? vghfr (✉ Talk) (✏ Contribs) 04:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC) Well, there was this, @Vghfr. 57.140.16.57 (talk) 13:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC) Diff of the quote BilledMammal is referring to, for convenience. Left guide (talk) 04:24, 18 March 2024 (UTC) I don't know why Luke Olson singled me out. I've asked here on their talk page. ~Awilley (talk) 04:38, 18 March 2024 (UTC) Most likely because you're a member of WikiProject LDS. I guess he thought that you'd back him up because you had involvement in LDS related topics vghfr (✉ Talk) (✏ Contribs) 04:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC) If any more single purpose/meatpuppet accounts show up, just tag with {{spa}} directly after their sig. The closer should be an admin, and they should be able to properly weight any SPA comments. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 04:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC) I added the "not a ballot" notice to the top. jps (talk) 12:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC) @ජපස, @BilledMammal, @Dennis Brown, @Remsense and others, fwiw CU data indicates that account is a Joe job. Seems like it was created to derail the discussion and cause drama for entertainment. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 14:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC) Glad y'all put a stop to it. This really makes WP:AGF hard, doesn't it? Now I have to reset my priors because it did not occur to me that this could have been a joe job. jps (talk) 16:41, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Assuming I'm no longer under under investigation for being an agent of BYU, may I suggest that if there is truly an appetite for having an open and honest discussion about off-wiki canvassing, it might be healthy to acknowledge the real elephant in the room. The thing that I think User:Horse Eye's Back referred to as the "invisible baseball". Above User:Aquillion above criticized Thmazing for questioning how Fram, HEB, and companyand a couple other editors spontaneously ended up on his talk page. It seems that was a valid question after all. In that light it's a bit ironic that we have editors tracking down Oppose voters to interrogate them on how they heard about this discussion, what their alma mater is, and whether they're members of a Discord group.

I also can't help but wonder if some part of the frustration on display above may be displaced anger for a different user who is currently out of reach of AN/I. I'd hate to see Rachel Helps and Thamazing become convenient scapegoats for Nihonjoe. I'm not asking anybody to change their votes, but I do think it would be healthy to reconsider the BYU editor under every rock approach. ~Awilley (talk) 03:44, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it was a valid question at all. I asserted, and continue to assert, that the way in which Thamazing reacted there shows a starkly WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to Wikipedia. And it seems a bit silly to bring up the fact that Nihonjoe is before ArbCom as if that is something people concerned about COIs might object to. It seems clear to me that this will (and should) end up before ArbCom as well - the problem is systematic and comparable to eg. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology; it is unlikely to be settled here. --Aquillion (talk) 04:26, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, I started watching Thmazing's talk page back in January after I submitted evidence on AML COIs to ArbCom. JoelleJay (talk) 06:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

It's rather hard to look at Nihonjoe's COI contributions and not notice the constant intersection with both Thmazing and the BYU editors. For example Annie Poon was created by Thmazing, with later important edits by Nihonjoe and Rachel Helps (BYU). Oh, Rachel Helps even sourced the article to two different non-WP:RS sources written by Thmazing[104]. Stellar work promoting AML editors in an article about an AML Award winning artist, not problematic COI editing at all. Same at Steven L. Peck, created by Thmazing, expanded by Rachel Helps (BYU) with addition of a source written by Thmazing[105] (and e.g. a source written by Michael Austin, which whom she has a COI as well) , of course again a winner of an AML Award (as are Thmazing, Rachel Helps, Michael Austin). On other pages edited by Nihonjoe, I encountered Thmazing adding his own publications[106]. I have to say, Rachel Helps is rather fond of quoting Thmazing, she used him as a reference twice in List of Mormon cartoonists as well, next to of course the AML Awards. But Thmazing doesn't really need her help, he is perfectly capable of ading his own self-published work[107], again on a page edited by Rachel Helps and Nihonjoe as well. But it is a good reference, because that work won, you guessed it, an AML Award.

Oh look, Dendō! Created by Rachel Helps, about an AML Award winning book where the Library that pays Rachel Helps owns the original artwork, and where Helps again uses Thmazing as a reference (among other not quite independent references as well). It's a walled garden which becomes very obvious once one looks at more and more articles edited by the same people referencing each other by name, each others publications, the organisations they're in, and so on... Fram (talk) 09:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems that was a valid question after all. Please explain what you mean by this. I would also note that if you want "to acknowledge the real elephant in the room" it would be helpful to actually name the elephant... In plain English what is the concern? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:58, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Re: "It seems that was a valid question after all." I was referring to the off-wiki blog post/doxing that Thamazing mentioned above and questioning whether that might have been part of the reason a bunch of editors spontaneously showed up on Thamazing's doorstep. The earlier blog post and related on-wiki fallout was what I was referring to as the elephant in the room. I think that's about as plain as I can be without having this post redacted. ~Awilley (talk) 20:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Is "a bunch of editors spontaneously showed up on Thamazing's doorstep" an accurate summary of the facts? I showed up on Thmazings talk page in December 2023‎. The off-wiki blog post was made on January 18th 2024. Fram didn't show up until 6 March 2024‎, JoelleJay on the 7th, and AirshipJungleman29 on the 8th. To me that looks like JoelleJay and AirshipJungleman29 followed Fram to the page but it doesn't look like Fram was following the "bad site" closely. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:32, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw Fram's edits to the page come up on my watchlist and was curious. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how AJ29 arrived too. JoelleJay (talk) 23:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

No actually, I was following you; I believe you had said something on Jimmy Wales' talk page (EDIT: yes, it was this thread which I participated in) and I absent-mindedly had a look at your recent contributions. Couple of days later I was having a look at WPO (I believe for the Nihonjoe saga), saw that thread, and thought "huh". Used what I could of that thread when opening the VPM subsection after being irritated by Thmazing. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Based on these facts I would ask that you strike "HEB" from "questioning how Fram, HEB, and company spontaneously ended up on his talk page." if you don't choose to strike the whole thing. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Although you joined the others in posting on March 7, I'll strike "HEB" as you requested because, as you pointed out, you had posted on Thmazing's talk page in December 2023. ~Awilley (talk) 00:13, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

And what about those who posted on the 9th? Are they part of this clique you're alleging the existence of or is the 8th some sort of magic cutoff? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't mean to defend the blog in any way, but doesn't that editor make their real life identity abundantly clear, hence the conflict of interest? XeCyranium (talk) 23:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Correct. Thmazing made like zero effort to hide his identity, which made the COI obvious. And to be fair, I have seen some evidence that Thmazing was trying to declare COI even before he was confronted. See for instance this October 2023 edit with the edit summary, "conflict alert: just cited myself". (Still not great to cite yourself though, even if the information was mundane.) ~Awilley (talk) 00:34, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

So, Awilley, you claim that insinuations that I appeared at Thmazing's talk page due to some off-wiki canvassing is "It seems that was a valid question after all." I guess you have some evidence for this? As far as I can reconstruct, I noticed Thmazing because of the AML and the AML Awards, which I was looking at because of the many links between them and Nihonjoe's COI articles; and because he also turned up at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2018 November 26, which I looked at when I delved a bit deeper in Rachel Helps' edits (again after I noticed the BYU, AML, ... edits and the collaborations with Nihonjoe on GA review, edit-a-thon, ... ). I then noticed the older discussion about his COI issues, so I started looking at his edits more closely then. But feel free to post any evidence you have of any off-wiki places I was contacted or where I contacted others or ... If you don't have any, perhaps strike the accusation and don't repeat such bogus claims in the future. Fram (talk) 11:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Fram: I'm not trying to claim or insinuate anything. I became interested in the possibility of off-wiki collaboration when I was singled out by the "joe job" sock, so I did some digging and then posted the above. I don't find fault in any of your actions that you described above, and I really wouldn't care even if you had learned about Nihonjoe and the other editors on the other site. How you find the information matters much less than what you do with it. You'll have to forgive me for not being immediately familiar with all the facts. When I first commented on the Village Pump thread this month I didn't realize there was an Arbcom case afoot and Nihonjoe wasn't even on my radar, so I've been kind of piecing things together since then. ~Awilley (talk) 20:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Once you look at the timeline of things, you can see that this didn't start with WPO, WPO only confirmed what people had already been saying on-wiki for years. To recap:

• the now-familiar 2020 COIN
• 2022 ANI started by Rachel Helps against HEB, where she writes "I have invited Horse Eye's Back to bring their concerns to COIN. I would prefer that to the constant accusations that I should not be editing certain pages." This is ironic in hindsight, as these concerns had already been brought to COIN two years earlier. AFAICS, nobody in the 2022 ANI thread mentioned the 2020 COIN. The only person in the 2022 ANI discussion who was also in the 2020 COIN is... Rachel Helps. I find it not very honest of her to say "take it to COIN" without disclosing that this had already been done. BTW, who jumps in to defend Rachel in the 2022 ANI? Awilley.
• January 2024 ANI against HEB (for things including but not limited to the BYU/AML COI), in which Rachel Helps writes "HEB has been harassing me since last year (see my talk page archive) and the students who work for me(see 1 and 2). He threatened to nominate us for a topic ban on editing pages about the Book of Mormon..." (this is the one mentioned above where P-Makoto pinged Awilley to the discussion) Dozens of editors participated here.

  BTW just to toot my own horn here, I said there and then, on Jan 8, that "It seems wildly obvious that 'something is afoot,' and I don't think it's limited to this thread..." That there was widespread undisclosed COI editing was obvious by Jan 8. Subsequent disclosers have since validated my suspicions.

• The "Let's talk about LDS editors" WPO forum thread was started Jan 18. After all of the above.
• The WPO blogs were posted in Feb and March (neither one about Rachel Helps, but related)

The timeline refutes any suggestion that WPO is what brought attention to this matter. Rather, WPO laid bare the evidence that supported what was already being discussed on-wiki. We know from people's statements that editors submitted evidence to Arbcom privately in December and January. Wikipedia didn't follow WPO, WPO followed Wikipedia. People weren't canvassed from WPO to Wikipedia, it was the other way around. I don't know this for a fact, but I'm pretty damn sure that the reason WPO wrote about it was because nothing was done on-wiki. Which happens pretty regularly: if Wikipedia doesn't take care of its own problems on-wiki, the rest of the world will notice and call Wikipedia out for it whenever the problems are serious enough for the rest of the world to care. Spreading misinformation in Mormonism, the Holocaust, Israel/Palestine, Iran, etc. are examples of things the real world will care about. Levivich (talk) 18:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Given the extensive ongoing issues and the lack of recalcitrance maybe we need to start talking about sanctions for Awilley. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the timeline, Levivich. That is very helpful. I remember that 2022 ANI...I think that's why I kept getting pinged back to subsequent threads on the same issue. ~Awilley (talk) 20:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Right, so when you're in a hole, stop digging. This isn't McCarthyism, which you literally linked to. starship.paint (RUN) 08:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Jesus this is a mess,

does anyone want me to contact an admin Maestrofin (talk) 02:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Maestrofin: The admins are most likely fully aware. This forum is entitled "Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents." ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:29, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Do you think we should have an Request For Comment Maestrofin (talk) 06:29, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Several admins have participated in this thread, including Awilley above. An RfC might be needed subsequently, but not right now; you are welcome to comment on this discussion Maestrofin. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Closing time?

There have been no new comments in the main threads for a couple of days, so is it time for an uninvolved admin to close before the archiving bot gets trigger happy? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

This should absolutely get the attention of a closer. I look forward to reading it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

My reading of the main thread is that it's a tricky close because of so many overlapping issues. On the one hand, there's a clear consensus that the user messed up in editing topics with a COI without adequately disclosing the COI. But there's no evidence that her editing was disruptive (quite the opposite). There's evidence that her student editors weren't doing a great job with NPOV and were too "in-world" on Mormonism-related topics. But she seems to be taking steps to address that as well, starting by having them only edit in sandbox for now. There are some users who seem to suggest that all paid editing should be banned, but AFAIK that argument doesn't have the force of policy behind it. There seems to be a numerical majority favoring a topic ban, but the editor is a clear net-positive on Wikipedia and shows a genuine interest in following the rules. In this thread she openly admitted fault, and then she went way beyond what is expected by listing all possible conflicts she could think of on her userpage. (See also the conversation with above with Valeree about which talk pages require a COI template.) The WiR thing is another complication that I think most people (including me) don't fully understand. And it seems the biggest COI violations (like the creation of The ARCH-HIVE) were unpaid—done on her on time from her personal account. This all makes for a thread that different admins could reasonably close in different ways.

My suggestion would be to wait a day or two (I don't know if Rachel edits on Sundays) and see if people might be interested in finding a middle path...something between "topic ban from Mormonism broadly construed" and "no action". There might be some solution that would satisfy more people and solve the problem too, perhaps something along the lines of "Rachel Helps agrees to use the {{Connected contributor}} template on all articles in the LDS Wikiproject to which she makes substantive edits, and will not directly edit articles about BYU, its current staff, or its library. She agrees to follow the advice at WP:COIEDIT for subjects she has a close connection with, including using the {{edit COI}} template on the talk page. All article creations, even those from her personal account, must go through the WP:Articles for Creation process." Some guidance for what to do with her students would also be helpful.

Is there any interest in this? ~Awilley (talk) 17:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC) (involved here, in case anybody hasn't read the above thread)

I don't understand why people are opposed to a topic ban from Mormonism broadly construed even as they admit there were problems. What is the added benefit of these accounts being able to move around the pages about Mormonism? I think there is rather broad consensus that encouraging them to move towards new topics would be ideal. Wouldn't a topic ban do that? What I don't understand is why the "middle ground" is sought at all. If you think she and her students should be editing Mormonism pages, then she should be allowed to do so. If you do not, then why the worry about the topic ban? jps (talk) 18:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@jps My experience in many contentious (especially religious) topics around Wikipedia has been that there are often two major groups of editors in opposition with one another. One group usually has some affiliation with the topic that gives them three things: 1, motivation to edit, 2, above average knowledge about the subject matter, and 3, a non-neutral point of view. (1 & 2 are good things, 3 is a bad thing.) These users are usually opposed by another group of users who are 1, motivated by Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to counter the POV of the first group, and that, 2, have relatively little knowledge of the subject matter. It is good to have some friction between these groups of editors, since Wikipedia needs motivated editors, people with deep knowledge about the subjects, and a commitment to follow its PAGs. Sometimes you will find a smaller third group of editors between these two opposing groups. These editors may some affiliation with the subject matter with the corresponding POV problem, but they have decided that when they log into Wikipedia, they are going to put Wikipedia first. They have a deep knowledge of the subject, but they recognize their bias and they take steps to mitigate that. If improving Wikipedia is the goal, these editors are a precious resource. The main reason I'm defending Rachel Helps is because I see her as being part of this third group. Does that answer your question? ~Awilley (talk) 19:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

You think being Mormon gives a person an above-average knowledge of Mormonism? I think it's the opposite. Levivich (talk) 19:35, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

How is Rachel not a member of group 1? She has motivation to edit, above average knowledge of the subject (such that one might have as a member of the church), and a non-neutral point of view. You are also a member of group 1, no? jps (talk) 19:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I suppose if you're technical about it, a Venn diagram would show that group 3 is largely a subset of group 1. My own relationship with Mormonism is complicated and something I prefer not to discuss on-wiki, but I have tried my best try my best to be a good member of group 3. ~Awilley (talk) 20:04, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I think the controversy here is one over whether it is possible to be more or less in the service of NPOV. I would prefer that we simply admit that people with a close relationship with a subject will necessarily be biased. It is our job as editors to try as best as we can to put that bias aside and attempt to follow Wikipedia's consensus WP:PAGs to achieve WP:NPOV. To the extent that I think the BYU contingent has been unable to do that and to the extent it has been in the service of the particular bias which is more-or-less apparent at first glance from the consideration of their approaches in articles on the Book of Mormon is the extent to which I have concerns over WP:PAID, WP:COI, etc. in these areas. So while your complicated relationship with Mormonism is a concern, you (as far as I know) are not being paid to edit Wikipedia by an organization with an iron in that fire. Here is the bone of contention. This is why I am having a hard time seeing how this is amenable to compromise between "just stay away" and "there's nothing wrong with it". jps (talk) 21:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Isn't it the case that at this point, only the community can determine if a compromise is possible? I mean, the community has already reached a consensus on its preferred outcome. And admins are not likely to thwart the community's decision, imho. Also, since we are already here, wherever "here" is, we might as well move forward ---Steve Quinn (talk) 22:34, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

In other words, Rachel can appeal in six months or whatever the time frame is. Time in between now and an appeal can be a benefit because it is a chance to show a proven track record. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 22:46, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

which is more-or-less apparent at first glance Except it isn't more or less apparent. The worst of those Book of Mormon topic articles were created decades ago, in the early 2000s, by completely different accounts with nothing to do with Rachel Helps (BYU) and were in far sorrier states before the BYU-paid editors actually added citations to sources other than the Book of Mormon. (To quote Ghosts of Europa, Second Nephi and Ammonihah are in much better shape than, say, Jason, a vital article mostly sourced to Euripides and Ovid. [for clarity, Ammonihah was not expanded by a BYU-paid editor; that's an article I expanded])

I'm aware of JPS having complaints. Yet some of these complaints have ranged from the genuinely inaccurate (I urge JPS to at some point accept the academic assessment of Joseph Smith as having been racist in a slightly different manner than has been insisted with repeated linking to a 30-year-old JWHA Journal article—and saying that isn't apologetics unless Max Perry Mueller's Race and the Making of the Mormon People (University of North Carolina Press, 2017) is Mormon apologetics, which would be a strange characterization for an academic book written by a non-Mormon about Mormon racism and white saviorism)—to the demandingly excessive, like at Talk:Ammonihah where JPS calls a non-Mormon literature professor a lunatic charlatan and repeatedly insists the article is incomprehensible because it doesn't provide an apologetics-style anthropology of background elements in the story like supposed Nephite ecclesioilogy.

My bone of contention is that JPS's catastrophic description of the Mormon studies topic area that Rachel Helps (BYU) and the student employees have contributed to doesn't hold up in all cases and only holds up in a couple. My bone of contention is that speaking as a trans girl who was formerly a BYU student with a BYU student job (unrelated to the Wikimedian-in-residence business; I never met Rachel Helps (BYU) at BYU and instead met her and primarily got to know her via Wikipedia), this BYU contingent as JPS calls them never made me feel ashamed or like I was less than them, whereas the users most strongly insisting that Rachel Helps (BYU)'s contributions are catastrophically damaging have proceeded with a tear-down tone that's left me feeling paralyzed about editing completely unrelated things on Wikipedia. I cannot stress this enough when it's so bizarre. I came out as trans at BYU, and the behavior that has been on display here at Wikipedia in the midst of this whole "thing" has hurt more and inflicted more shame than I experienced back then. There's been attempts at outing and stalking, there's been bizarre additions to articles like throwing judge of ??? (actually with the question marks) in body text because apparently that was the best way to insist that article text I wrote wasn't clear enough about the intricate geopolitics of a Nephite society that NPOV means we're not supposed to be treating as nearly so real (JPS's train of thought on Book of Mormon topics more than once has resembled FARMS-style apologists much more than the 21st-century academic-critical field), I've been told my best effort to summarize available scholarship has constituted stupid games. At BYU, I didn't develop a fear I was being stalked. I didn't get talked about over the pulpit or in publicly-viewable forums. No BYU personnel ever followed me to an unrelated article to loom over my shoulder.

I don't know what's up about Nihonjoe and ArbCom, and I don't know why the heck Thmazing has been so devil may care in tone and has been making articles cited so predominantly to blog posts. Let the sanctions on them fall as they must. But to apply the same broad brush more widely and without nuance or differentiation strikes me as reminiscent of the kind of thinking at which the Mormon Smokescreen Cabal joke was supposed to poke fun. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 23:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@ජපස:, you've certainly been around long enough to know that ??? is poor wikivoice. A couple questions: Can you point to consensus regarding the WSJ not covering climate change accurately? WP:WSJ makes no mention of it. Are you following p-makoto around and/or intentionally scanning their contributions for errors? I'm struggling to find an explanation for these edits besides you intentionally being harsh on P-Makoto's edits, although please provide one if there is. Sincerely, Dilettante 00:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh, it's well known that the WSJ is a problem when it comes to climate change denial: [108].

I am not "following" P-Makoto around. I did look at some of the articles she had last contributed to and did see this terrible "hockey stick controversy" WSJ article added in Ross McKitrick. This was not, to my knowledge, anything she added to the article. I do not find anything problematic about her work on that article.

I think the lack of WP:AGF extended towards me from P-Makoto is sad, but as you can see from our interactions on her talkpage, not surprising. I am leveling harsh critique on certain Wikipedia contributions she has made, but they aren't unforgivable sins by any means. Yes, I found the article on Ammonihah and most of the rest of the Book of Mormon pages to be pretty bad and needing a lot of cleanup. I will not apologize for being a disruptive force in those places. I think there is a lot more work to be done up to and including three question marks!

jps (talk) 01:12, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Who are we discussing about again is it Rachel helps or her students Or all,

Because this is a big mess Maestrofin (talk) 03:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Thats an opinion piece... And the Editorial board at The Wall Street Journal is definitely known for bad takes on climate change. Note that P-Makoto has a history of following around other editors (including to completely unrelated topics) and "looming" over their shoulder so their complaints are a bit much all things considered. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:12, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

My own feeling, like I said above, is that this sort of paid editing (paid editing that doesn't follow WP:PAID and WP:COI, and a WIR program that doesn't follow the guidelines for those organization) is a hard red line. I'm not remotely convinced that the people in question knew more about the topic area or were in whatever respect more policy-compliant compared to the average editor, but either way it doesn't matter, for the reasons I outlined above - this is an actually serious problem which, as a precedent, would have implications far beyond this specific dispute. I'm also deeply unimpressed by an argument that we should make a special exception for someone just because some people feel they are irreplaceable - that is not how Wikipedia works or has ever worked. Based on that I'm unwilling to accept anything but broad topic-bans, and I expect this to go to ArbCom if necessary in order to get them - this has been discussed repeatedly, devouring massive amounts of editor time and energy, for four years. If it isn't ended in an extremely conclusive manner here, then the community has failed to resolve it and a broader ArbCom case is the only way to go. --Aquillion (talk) 03:12, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I think your third group is just the first group from its own POV. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:07, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Inappropriate removal of NPOV tag by JayBeeEll

@S Marshall: closed a controversial RFC today at Talk:Tim Hunt, see Talk:Tim Hunt#RfC: 2015 remarks. Whilst acknowledging there appeared to be a consensus, he reminded editors that consensus can't over-rule founding principles, the second pillar, and core content policy and quoting the amplification on his talk page these cannot be overruled by any talk page consensus however strong. He later emphasised this on his own talk page [109] in response to a query [110].

Judging by that query, it appears that the key point in the closure was being ignored; namely WP:PROPORTION. Shortly thereafter, and before any reply, an edit was made to Tim Hunt which appeared to ignore the closure[111]. Noting the history of edit warring at the article, I chose to add a {{npov}} tag and start a talk page discussion. I felt that any revert of a bold edit would result in an edit war and had no intention to revert war.

My tag was removed by JayBeeEll [112] with the edit summary "Don't be silly", I restored the tag and it was once again removed by JayBeeEll [113] with the edit summary "Yes sure let's see how this turns out", which appears to be an intention to revert war. The comment in the talk page [114] in response to my concerns and the unnecessary 3RR warning on my talk page appears to confirm [115] that.

On the face of it, it appears that the closure is being ignored to impose a local consensus that conflicts with core policies. As such I would suggest that the tag should remain until the closure is fully addressed. On a side note, I remain concerned about the toxic nature of any discussion in that talk page presently. Reluctantly bringing it here for further review. Please note I will not be available for a couple of days due to personal commitments. WCM_email 17:57, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The behavior displayed by WCM is very similar to the behavior that led to this only one month ago; it is disappointing that he has not been able to accommodate himself to the fact that his view is a minority, both relative to WP editors and to the views represented in reliable sources. At least he stopped after a single round of edit-warring about the ridiculous tagging. As with Thomas B, my hope is that this can be settled by a change of behavior, without the need for any sanctions. --JBL (talk) 18:35, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I've no wish to comment on this ridiculous tag edit war, and I'd prefer to limit my involvement with the page to closing that one RfC, but I do want to say tempers are extremely frayed in this topic area and there's definitely scope for an uninvolved sysop to step in and restore order. Please.—S Marshall T/C 18:51, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

It would be a ridiculous edit war, were it not for the fact I refused to edit war over this. The fact remains that removing the tags in the way JayBeeEll did is counter to accepted policy. I would acknowledge @S Marshall:'s comment that this situation desperately needs input from an uninvolved Sysop to restore order. I have been asking for that for weeks, the reference to the removal of Thomas Basboll, is exactly the point I wish to make. If editors are convinced they're right and there are enough of them make a fuss, they can remove what they see as an obstruction by lobbying loudly here. The edit war that editor attempted to start, and its clear that was his intention, was a repeat of the same tactics used previously. I have made no attempt to filibuster I simply tried to bring external opinion but that's pretty unlikely given the toxic nature of editing at present. WCM_email 18:04, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The editing situation got much less toxic when you stopped participating for a few days; maybe you should try that again? Certainly it would be good for an uninvolved admin to tell you the same thing everyone else on this thread has said. --JBL (talk) 19:25, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Point to anything I've said that contributes to a toxic atmosphere. As for comments contributing to a toxic atmosphere[116] "Don't be silly [117] "Yes sure let's see how this turns out" whilst edit warring to remove tags that encourage outside input. WCM_email 08:00, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

On the face of it, it appears that the closure is being ignored to impose a local consensus that conflicts with core policies.

That's an extremely uncharitable reading of the closure, apparently because you just don't like the results. The close was finding that the RfC consensus narrowly found for inclusion, with a warning to follow guiding principles of the Wiki while doing so. That's it. The rest of it is you projecting onto the closure and making vague, hand-wavy assertions that the close is against policy.

Since you won't be available for a couple days anyway, I suggest you wait and see what proposed edits come from the RfC before making any further comments. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 22:20, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I at no point said the close was against policy, I actually think given the toxic atmosphere he was entering @S Marshall: made a very good closure of that malformed RFC. The reminder that local consensus can't trump core policy seems to have fallen on deaf ears it seems. WCM_email 08:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:CON has by definition got to be aligned with the WP:PAGs since it embodies "a process of compromise while following Wikipedia's policies and guidelines". So if @S Marshall's close is "very good", it follows it must have correctly divined consensus, which you now need to accept. If however, you think the close has arrived at a problematic WP:LOCALCON you need to initiate a close review. Shit or get off the pot. Bon courage (talk) 11:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Precisely this. WCM, you can't have it both ways: you can't claim the close "trumps core policy", while acknowledging it was a good close. The close in fact emphasizes that any proposed changes have to adhere to core policy. It seems you're claiming that the finding of inclusion inherently violates policy, so which is it? — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

At no point did I say the close trumps policy, that's your strawman. The closer clearly refers to core policies and makes it plain that they can't be overridden by a local consensus. He also singled out that I and others couldn't be ignored because we were making well-reasoned objections to this outcome, and I have to have regard to their objections because they're based in policy further adding While editors are implementing option 1 and option 2A, they should have regard to core content policy, and specifically WP:PROPORTION. It's clear from this comment [118] there is no intention to implement the full intention of the close The view of myself, and I assume a lot of participants, is that WP:PROPORTION isn't terribly relevant. There is WP:TAG team of editors are acting in concert and per @S Marshall:'s comment this situation desperately needs input from an uninvolved Sysop to restore order. WCM_email 17:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

sigh I tried, but if you're intent on digging a hole, I can't stop you. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:58, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

If you aren't available for the next couple of days, why the hell are you opening an ANI thread? "Reluctantly bringing it here" yeah right. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:57, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• WCM's editing regarding the Tim Hunt article has been as tendentious as Basboll's in staunchly refusing to get the point regarding the fact that their viewpoint is a minority and continuing to beat a dead horse and engage in WP:WIKILAWYERING in an attempt to fillibuster discussions regarding the issue, rather than just moving on. I would support a topic or page ban from Tim Hunt if WCM does not desist with his aggressive rejection of the talkpage consensus. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• support topic ban due the editor's apparent unwillingness to drop the stick and refusal to get the point of the RfC. I commented at the ANI thread where Thomas B was topic banned. Given the RfC I moved on and have not touched the article or the RfC. The level of name-calling on display at that article over an ancient ten-day kerfuffle in the bro-sphere easily matched the most acrimonious mutual accusations of genocide I have witnessed on Wikipedia. EE squared. I had never heard of Tim Hunt. He seems nice? But if the episode in question is included in the article -- and there seems no question that RS has covered it in immense detail - then the article should dispassionately state that Tim Hunt said what he said. This editor's contention that it should not (because the poor man nearly committed suicide over this) utterly lacks a grounding in policy, and no evidence was ever presented of this assertion either. It betrays an emotional investment in this incident that baffles me, frankly. I would hesitate to participate on the talk page due to this editor's past level of vitriol, and the time sink it again likely would become. I am not following this thread. If anyone has questions about what I just said, please ping me. Elinruby (talk) 12:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

[119] I haven't gone down a rabbit hole over this because to me, he's just another misogynist who claims to be misunderstood. Most do. in your on words your motives are to expose another misogynist. I am quite astounded that you'd openly mock someone driven near to suicide. WCM_email 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• I check back at this article after taking a break from it and find the RfC has been closed, consensus established and the article fixed accordingly. Great: the journey is over, the plane has landed, and the engines are turned off .... But oddly the whining sound continues as there's one editor who seemingly can't move on. If this continues sanctions may be appropriate. Bon courage (talk) 08:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Note that the other problem editor in this mix, who was page banned from Tim Hunt, has now started beating the dead horse at BLPN.[120] Bon courage (talk) 07:08, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I reported this straight to the ban-implementing administrator this time, as this is an obvious attempt at WP:GAMING, WP:STICK, WP:FORUMSHOPPING. I will remember to prefer broader topic bans next time. NicolausPrime (talk) 10:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban, WP:DROPTHESTICK, WP:FORUMSHOPPING and other issues. Lavalizard101 (talk) 11:34, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment - Does this topic fall under GenSex? GoodDay (talk) 20:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  The overall Tim Hunt article wouldn't but the section on the controversy would fall under a GENSEX topic ban, as they are "broadly construed". (So would this thread, I believe.) Loki (talk) 04:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

User:AndyFielding

Longterm disruptive removals of birth place/date from Early life sections (examples: 1, 2, 3, 4). User never responds to talk page warnings (or any talk page comments at all) --FMSky (talk) 15:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

This editor began editing in 2007, has made ~17k edits, the vast majority of which are almost certainly good, and has never been blocked. Since the start of his editing he has been using talk pages and has around 1300 edits in talk spaces. On 3 April 2018 he wrote on his user page: If you disagree with any of my changes, or have questions about them, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Very disappointingly, on 15 July 2020, he changed this to I'm afraid I don't have time to engage in debates about my changes. If you disagree with some, undo them if you must— ... Since then, he has not stopped being communicative, and has, for example, made more edits to talk pages in 2022 then in all of the previous years combined.

So this editor definitely talks in general, but consciously refuses to engage when editors inform him that some of his edits are wrong. Which is not collaborative. AndyFielding should commit to engage in consensus building, and that he understands that receiving feedback from other editors and participating in ocassional disputes does not have to be a "debate" every time. —Alalch E. 16:33, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

See also this announcement on the editor's talk page:

Attention to reversals, feedback, etc.

I'm sorry I don't have more time to attend to this page. If you feel compelled to undo any of my edits, it's your prerogative—although for the most part, only factual oversights should need correction, as my primary focus is on simpler language. (In reference works, “less is more”.)
As a career writer and copy editor, I'm reasonably confident my contributions benefit WP's readers. Thus I'll continue to follow founder Jimmy Wales's injunction to be bold. As he said: “If you don't find one of your edits being reverted now and then, perhaps you're not being bold enough.”
Cheers, A.
— User:AndyFielding 01:50, 9 January 2019

—Alalch E. 16:45, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

The core issue here seems to be a content issue. Have they been reverting at all to enforce their preferred version? A quick look at the diffs above shows several constructive changes mixed in with the clearly controversial birth date removals, which they're saying is based on redundancy grounds. Is he just doing step one of WP:BRD, and then simply conceding any subsequent discussion? They do have several edits to article talk pages recently, but at first glance nearly all of those appear to be WP:FORUM discussions rather than anything editing related. So clearly they have time to be engaging in consensus building and simply choose not to, which ain't great even if it's unclear whether that's actually disrupting anything. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 18:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

On 29 November 2022, FMSky writes the following to AndyFielding (diff, emphasis added):

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Reese_Witherspoon&diff=next&oldid=1109721746
stop making these kinds of idiotic edits. the point of having the full name/birth date there is that you can put a source behind it --FMSky (talk) 09:51, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Prior to that, FMSky's added an inappropriate {{uw-vandalism2}} warning issued on 3 October 2022, with an added STOP REMOVING BIRTH NAMES/BIRTH DATES okay?? (diff), but I now see that it all started on Sept 24, with an identical message as the Nov one, except supplant idiotic with "nonsensical" and a different url cited (diff). And now, here we are: March 2024.

What I don't understand, so maybe FMSky can explain this, is the problem with removing the full birth date and names from the body when that info is already mentioned in the lead (AndyFielding's 'redundancy,' 'simplicity,' etc.)? What makes these disruptive removals? Because a reference could be added to a lead, especially as a single footnote as opposed to a normal ref (i.e. so as to prevent the littering the lead with refs). But as much as I disapprove of how FMSky conducted themselves here, AndyFielding stonewalling the issue and continuing to do so for additional pages, even if not reverting anything, might not be ideal. But how intensive and extensive is it? Who knows. And it's not like there's a rule, for or against, such removals. El_C 08:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe read what other users have posted on his talk page instead of analysing a post by me made 2 years ago. The better question is why do you think its fine to have a sentence that reads "Poulter was born". Also tagging @Soetermans: who also left a number of talk page messages on the user's page FMSky (talk) 11:30, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

FMSky, I will analyze and review what I see fit and in the manner and pace I see fit. And I find your own misconduct is pertinent. El_C 11:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for feedback on my behaviour 2 years. Now, whats actually relevant: Why do you think its fine to have a sentence that reads "Poulter was born" and what do you think about the comments by other users on his page? --FMSky (talk) 11:58, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

FMSky, I have no opinion on that, but you need to take it down a notch, or I will block you from this noticeboard. El_C 12:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes my bad, I wont post in this thread any further. I feel uncomfortable being on this page anyway (that was originally the reason why I didnt made a report earlier) --FMSky (talk) 12:14, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

That might be best for now. Your reports generally tend to be subpar (lacking context and depth), I'm sorry to say. And same for the history of your interactions with the user whom you've reported. Certainly room for improvement. El_C 12:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi El_C, perhaps other people disagree about repeating a date of birth and that's fine. This is a collaborative effort and we try to find a consensus. But as I read WP:LEAD, it is the summation of the article. Any information there should be in the article as well. We try to keep references out of the lead too (WP:REFLEAD). So it makes perfect sense to mention a date of birth in the lead and mention it in an early life section, if there is one. AndyFielding has been asked repeatedly to stop and hasn't communicated a bit about the issue. But after so many talk page messages and formal warnings, you can't feign ignorance and leave edit summaries like:

• "Suggestions for simplicity, WP style (surname except to avoid ambiguity), omitting redundant detail (birth date in lede)"
• "Suggestions for simplicity (birth date in lede)
• "I don't know what it is about celebrity articles that induces so many WP writers to redundantly repeat these details from the lede. Fan overenthusiasm, I'm guessing. (Also, "redundantly repeat" is probably itself redundant—so let's face it, you can't win.) Anyone with reference experience would agree, though: It's sloppy. I just wish we didn't have to fix it one article at a time. 🤷‍♂️" from three days ago. Fan enthusiasm, really?
• "I don't know why people do this so often in celebrity bios, but it's redundant and, frankly, seems like fawning. 🤷‍♂️", from two days ago. First fan enthusiasm, now it's 'fawning' to mention a date of birth?

So in my eyes, AndyFielding isn't just not aware of consensus, but willfully ignores it, with subtle jabs in their edit summaries. No replies on talk pages, but still going on little rants? That, combined with not communicating, sounds like disruptive behaviour to me. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 12:16, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't consider all aspects of the MOS to be mandatory, including this, but from your evidence, it does increasingly appear as a WP:POINT exercize. El_C 12:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Bit off topic, I was checking their edits if they've done the same. They recently made some smart-assed comments on talk pages. To an honest question, asked nearly seven years ago, they responded with "Yes, tricky isn't it? Personally, I won't post videogame records unless they've been verified by space aliens." Kinda uncivil, unnecessary regardless. In a 10 year old discussion they replied "Gee! I'll have some of whatever you were having", an inappropriate response.

The last reply on their own talk page was in November 2019. They won't to communicate there or here - but years old discussions not a problem? soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 21:24, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi El_C, did you see my previous message? To be clear, those were after FMSky's note on their talk page. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 11:58, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Understood, Soetermans. Thanks for clarifying that. El_C 07:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Another inappropriate edit summary: " reckon this is what the writer meant, as "conservatively modest" would mean he was bashful about wearing more individualistic clothing. (By sheer coincidence, many conservatives are morons too, but that's beyond the scope of this comment.)" soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 20:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

More of the same. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 11:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

• Take some sort of action. Maybe FMSky could have been more polite, but they're 100% correct on the merits. The lede is meant to be a summary of the body, so repetition between the lede and the body is expected and valid. A check of some random diffs leaves me unimpressed with AndyFielding's copyediting - they appear to be, at best, enforcing a style preference on text that should honor the main contributor's style preference, and at worst making actively bad changes and being a net negative. There have been studies on this: readers do not read articles like they're novels and carefully remember every bit of information from before, but rather bounce around from section to section. So for an example other than removing birth dates from the body, despite his edit summary saying that "most [readers] aren't amnesiacs—pronouns are fine", no, actually, using a last name again for clarity often makes a sentence read much simpler and work better as an excerpt, without requiring consulting earlier as to who exactly is being referred to. This could be resolved very simply by AndyFielding simply resolving and agreeing to not do things like this, but if he's going to refuse to engage or to communicate despite being reported at ANI five days ago, then a sanction is all we have. SnowFire (talk) 19:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Again: "Suggestions for simplicity, style, omitting redundant detail (in lede). I'd also like to point out that I've reverted those edits. AndyFielding can't feign missing notifications like this. It is disruptive. soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 10:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• • Upgrade to ban. This is the dumbest and most avoidable reason for a ban, but AndyFielding seems to be of the opinion that talking with other editors is a trap or is too stressful or beneath his notice. Who knows. But simply 100% refusing to engage with legitimate concerns of other editors is not how this works. I placed a direct request on his talk page to say something, anything, to acknowledge he is actually reading what other editors say. He's ignored it and continued to edit instead. To be sure, some of AndyFielding's copyediting seems fine, and it would be a shame to ban an editor over something so minor, but... come on. No complaint about instantly accepting any unblock request that simply promises to communicate, but communication is not optional on a collaborative project. SnowFire (talk) 16:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Block instead. A long-term, constant stream of bad edits mixed with a larger volume of good edits coming from an otherwise respected and trusted editor is more damaging than your daily vandal. AndyFielding's mission statement when he turned back on the idea of consensus (copied above) is against the philosophy of Wikipedia, and he has stayed on this non-collaborative track ever since. He must have understood what this would lead to and that this moment would come. It doesn't matter that most of his edits are fine when the bad edits will be repeated and there is nothing anyone can do about it but follow him around and detect and revert each one of them. And no one wants to do that and no one should be expected to do that. Alternatively, he could actually even keep not discussing as long as he remembers not to repeat the types of edits that are disputed, and for that he would at least need to read requests on his talk page not to repeat certain things and not repeat them—regardless if he thinks that the request is wrong. If he wants to prove that those particular edits are right, he would have to engage. It should be extremely easy for AndyFielding to be unblocked based on this. He can commit to respond to feedback on his talk page at least a little bit and commit not to do things that others ask him not to do without participating in dispute resolution. Therefore, an indefinite block is entirely preventative and is the only thing that can make this editor realign.—Alalch E. 20:07, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

    no admin hasn’t taken any action yet Maestrofin (talk) 06:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Another odd edit summary: "Suggestions for simplicity (e.g., contrary to the apparent notion that WP readers are amnesiacs and must be continually reminded what the topic is—LOL)". soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 13:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

That's a fantastic edit with a fine edit summary. Fixing repetitive references to the subject, fixing "located in", removing unprofessional wording like "from generation to generation", and other needed copyediting is obviously something that this editor excels at. The problem are the bad edits, not the good edits like this one. The summary is humorous and sufficiently accurately describes the edit. —Alalch E. 21:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Please ban Fabrickator from interacting with me.

[Edit: I have copyedited this post in the following ways. First so that links are hidden in linked words for readability, like they are in articles, and secondly, punctuation and similar small changes to text that don't change the meaning especially those made necessary by the link moves. The reason I did it only now is that I wasn't sure how to hide the links, having had problems doing that on talk pages in the past. Sorry for any inconvenience.]

I'm not the only user that thinks Fabricator should be banned from interacting with me. In fact, I got the idea from this comment by Asparagusus on my talk page.

Also, Graham Beards implied here that Fabrickator and I should stop interacting with each other, which I agreed with, and Fabrickator did not agree with.

I believe Fabrickator has been guilty of hounding me on Wikipedia, and has been incivil about it. Here he sarcastically referred to an edit of mine that he disapproved of as "brilliant". Something went wrong with the formatting (I think Fabrickator caused this somehow, but I'm not sure), but who said what and when is still fairly clear, I think.

Fabrickator has persisted in communicating with me despite my requests that he leave me alone, and has also repeatedly ignored my questions about why he so interested in me, and in one case, cryptically said, "I'm not going to directly respond to your question." when I politely asked, yet again, why he was so interested in me.

Fabrickator has reverted several good edits of mine, seemingly after following me to an article. Here is just one such reversion. It is notable, because firstly, it was re-reverted by Graham Beards, and secondly, Fabrickator did his reversion quietly. He did not tell me what he had done, which is remarkable, given how much irrelevant material he has posted on my talk page . I only found out he had done it much later, after Graham Beards had unreverted it. Thirdly, it is *clearly* a remarkably incompetent and fairly harmful reversion.

So Fabrickator has not just been wasting *my* time, and a few other editors who have kindly taken some interest in this matter, such as Graham Beards and Asparagusus, but, more importantly, has directly harmed Wikipedia and Wikipedia's readers.

I think Fabrickator should be banned from interacting with me, while I am not banned from interacting with him. Having said that, I would be content (delighted, in fact) with a two-way ban, if it is permanent. Polar Apposite (talk) 20:04, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

A few points here. If you want someone to stop posting on your talk page, you should make a clear request. This also means do not ask the editor any questions or otherwise talk about them on your talk page. Such a request should be respected with the exception of essential notices etc per WP:USERTALKSTOP. If User:Fabrickator had continued to continued to post on your talk page despite you asked them to stop, I think we would now be at the stage where they received a final warning before an indefinite block. I think your requests were a lot less clear than they should have been. Still I'll warn them. As for your iban proposal, that is a lot more involved and we'd need to see evidence of something more than simply posting on your talk page when you asked them to stop. If they're indefinitely blocked there's no need for an iban. A single reversion of one of your edits is IMO not enough. Nil Einne (talk) 22:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

In User_talk:Polar_Apposite#sigmoid_colon_redux, I offered to abide by an informal 60-day interaction ban. That was on February 8. I asked him to clarify whether he accepted that, he did not "formally" respond to that, but he did acknowledge it, and stated that he was interested in either a temporary or permanent ban. I did not ask for further clarification (the intent being to avoid interaction). So for about the last 35 days, I have refrained from any interaction with Polar (obviously, aside from this interaction, which I presume that I am obliged to respond to).

I viewed this informal approach as having certain advantages:

• Save administrators from having to become involved in adjudicating the dispute.
• Also save them the trouble of officially tracking the ban, assuming it were to have been granted.

If I were to have violated that ban, the voluntary ban would likely be viewed as a "confession of fault".

• There is neither an official determination of fault, nor an admission of fault'
• Upon successful completion of this voluntary ban, future requests for a ban should not be based on events that happened prior to the voluntary ban.

For the last 35 days, I have avoided any interaction with Polar. OTOH, in spite of Polar's seemingly implied commitment to avoid any interaction with me and 35 days without any interaction, he now submits this IBAN request. I request that it be denied, on the basis of this informal interaction ban.

We should be very careful about the restriction of mere communication between users, recognizing in particular that the imposition of a ban places the banned party at a greatly heightened risk as well as creating what can be a problematic situation if (by some coincidence) they both happen to be "participating" in editing or commenting on the same article.

Respectfully, Fabrickator (talk) 22:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Why do you want to communicate with me when I have made it clear that I do not want to communicate with you? Polar Apposite (talk) 22:28, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

In point of fact, I had avoided communicating with you for 35 days. FWIW, though, you cannot reasonably avoid criticism by insisting that criticism of you (by myself and/or by somebody else) is not permitted. In any case, the appropriate place for such a discussion would be on one of the participant's own talk pages. Fabrickator (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

If you avoided communicating with me for 35 days, and didn't revert any good edits of mine during that time, I thank you for that. But I want to *never* hear from you again, and *know* that I will never hear from you again, The only way that is possible is with a permanent interaction ban. In my opinion you should be blocked indefinitely (from Wikipedia), but I won't ask for that. You should be very grateful to if you only get a permanent one-way interaction ban. As I see it, you have nearly always wasted my time with your comments, and your reverts of my good edits is even worse, especially since you quietly followed me around Wikipedia reverting good edits of mine without even telling me. And in my humble opinion you have been uncivil while at it. It discouraged me from editing Wikipedia.

And you have, yet again, avoided answering my very reasonable and polite question. So I will repeat it. Why do you want to communicate with me when I have made it clear that I do not want to communicate with you? Polar Apposite (talk) 02:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@Polar Apposite, this is very stale. The most recent diff you provide is over a month old.

An admin should close this. TarnishedPath^talk 02:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad you've brought this up. I've been busy with some things in real life for the last month or so, that's all. As you can see, I have almost no edits to Wikipedia during the last month. I have in a sense, been away from Wikipedia, to some extent, for the last month.

I don't think there's any reason to believe that the situation has changed during the last month. Whether it's "stale" is not a real issue. In fact, the fact that I have been away actually reduces the significance of the fact that Fabricator has not posted on my user page during the last month or so. I don't know whether he has quietly reverted some more good edits of mine. Polar Apposite (talk) 02:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@Polar Apposite we're supposed to WP:AGF, not WP:ABF. If you had evidence of them reverted good edits of yours recently then you ought to provide evidence not state that you don't evidence that they haven't done it. The fact that you haven't provided any recent evidence of anything speaks very heavily to this being stale. TarnishedPath^talk 07:02, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I think this is stale as well, but if the consensus is that this is not he the case, I think any interaction ban, if necessary, ought to be two-way. Fabrickator has done a poor job reading the tea leaves and should have backed off even if the request to stay off the talk was not explicit, but Polar Apposite's behavior has hardly been stellar, either. The latter has a history of bludgeoning conversations (see flooding the Teahouse and the discussion in Barack Obama) and taking reverts and edits extremely personally. They also take every opportunity to take little passive-aggressive digs at Fabrickator, such as pointedly announcing that they are thankful they're not friends on multiple occasions and throwing in words like "harmful" and "incompetent" needlessly in conversations.

In any case, I think this ought to be closed, with a light slap of the trout to Fabrickator to remind them that Polar Apposite's request to stay off their use page should now to be taken as explicit and to Polar Apposite to remind them that every reversion or criticism doesn't amount to a blood feud. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 04:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I really can't see this going anywhere. TarnishedPath^talk 07:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Well I would ask that the implicit agreement of the "voluntary iban" (which was effectively "completed" by virtue of this incident being opened) should be abided by, i.e. that there shouldn't be an iban. It's not that I anticipate a desire to interact with Polar, but it will be counter-productive to have to think about this every time I edit an article or participate in some discussion. Fabrickator (talk) 07:53, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Simply put, it's clear that Polar Apposite does not want you to post on their Talk page. You should abide by that. However, that does not mean you must avoid them on article Talk pages, and conversely Polar Apposite can't just ignore you on article Talk pages when you bring up an issue.

If things escalate, we can start considering a two-way iban, but for now this should suffice. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:05, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

[Edit: I have copyedited this post (like I did with the OP a few hours ago) in the following ways. First so that links are hidden in linked words for readability, like they are in articles, and secondly, punctuation and similar small changes to text that don't change the meaning especially those made necessary by the link moves. The reason I did it only now is that I wasn't sure how to hide the links, having had problems doing that on talk pages in the past. Sorry for any inconvenience.]

I'll reply to myself to avoid "bludgeoning" anyone :)

331dot told me on my talk page that, "It's not bludgeoning to civilly respond to arguments/posts made in and of itself; it might be if, say, if you had a snarky response to every comment about you. I would make a single, calm comment responding to claims made about you. 331dot (talk) 08:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)".

Accordingly, I will respond to everyone's posts in a single (hopefully calm, ha ha) comment.

I don't know whether Fabrickator should be blocked from Wikipedia, because I don't know how valuable his other contributions have been. Looking at his contributions for the first time (I was not interested until now) just now, in search of reversions of my edits, I see that he has made a lot of edits purportedly fixing broken links, which sounds good. Why stop him from doing that, if it is good work? Banning him from interacting with me would not affect, I would have thought, his ability to fix broken links. His work in general may be valuable. All I am sure of is that his interactions with me have been a huge waste of time, and quite harmful at times.

I'd like to clarify that I don't think it was ever my intention to tell Fabrickator not to post on my talk page, as that would give him an excuse to continue reverting good edits of mine without proper discussion or even notification. Also, doing so could be seen as uncivil according to the summary of this Wikipedia page which says,

"This page in a nutshell: Editors can request that other editors keep off their user talk page. However, such demands may be considered uncivil. Disobeying such a request may or may not result in sanctions, depending on the circumstances."

I didn't want him to never post on my page, just to stop wasting my time with useless posts that seemed aimed at socializing with me, possibly trying to befriend me (we have never been friends, BTW), or to harass me, or possibly some "frenemy"-style mixture of the two. When I asked him why he wanted to communicate with me, and what he found so interesting about me, I really was sincerely interested in learning why. He has always chosen not to answer my question.

@Nil Einne I thought you might want more examples of bad reversions of my work by Fabricator (I found three more) when you wrote,

"A single reversion of one of your edits is IMO not enough."

Here goes. The egregious pathology article reversion [121], was not the only bad reversion of one of my edits. Another example would be @Fabrickator 's reversion here of this other good edit of mine to the Jo Koy article. Notice how there's no "reverted" tag on my edit, making it harder for me or anyone else to notice that my edit had been reverted. His edit summary says, "revert of 14:10 and 14:41 edits of 8 January 2024: both "Filipino" and "Filipina" are acceptable forms when used with "mother"; remove extraneous space at end of line". Wikipedia rules say that only positively harmful edits should be reverted, and so this justification makes no sense, because it acknowledges that my edit was harmless at worst. Secondly, even if both forms are acceptable (debatable, see my comments on the article talk page, that doesn't mean that they are equally suited to an encyclopedia article, so, again, the edit summary is nonsensical. I argued on the talk page that "Filipina" is foreign or slang, or at least has that vibe about it, and therefore "Filipino" is more encyclopedic. I also argued that "Filipina" is confusing, because then what does "Filipino" mean? Does it refer only to males? English doesn't have this final a vs final o male/female system. But Fabrickator has not addressed any of these objections to his reversion. I have no objection to his deletion of the whitespace character I added to allow a dummy edit (an accepted technique on Wikipedia which Fabrickator seems not to have heard of, leading to his taking me to task for this elsewhere, wasting everyone's time yet again). OTOH, there was no need for him to do that, as it was harmless. If he wanted to do it, I think he should have quietly deleted the white-space in a separate edit, and marked his edit as minor, instead of making a fuss about it.

To sum up, Fabrickator has done four reversions of my edits that I know about, having looked through all his contributions in the last seven months: 1. the egregious, bizarre, and outrageous, pathology article reversion, 2. the absurd and absurdly defended Jo Koy article reversion, 3. the useless (albeit harmless) and timewasting fuss-laden reversion of a whitespace character, also in the Jo Koy article, and 4. the absurd reversion of my edit adding a citation needed tag and substituting a failed verification tag here. Fabrickator's reversion was later unreverted here by Nardog, with an edit summary saying, "Reverted 1 edit by Fabrickator (talk): CN is correct, it's not cited to any source". To sum up, Fabrickator's four reversions of edits of mine comprise one outrageous one, one absurd one, one bad one, and one theoretically harmless one but accompanied by a lot of time-wasting fuss based on his not knowing what a dummy edit is and his not simply asking my why I added the white-space before berating me here (in quite an uncivil way, I might add. He calls the whitespace character an "extraneous space".

Out of four reversions, zero were useful, two were unreverted by other editors, three were harmful, and one was quite harmful indeed. And he followed me to all those articles, it seems, in order to do what he did. And his subsequent discussion has been either zero, ignoring me, or useless and uncivil. He seems to think he is competent to overrule me without discussion, but I think he is wrong about this. I saw that some of his copyedits to the work of some other editors were good, so he should probably continue copyediting, but overzealously trying to correct *me* has led to his getting out of his depth, perhaps. That seems a charitable way of looking at this, and assumes good faith. Let him try his luck with someone else, as long as it doesn't become hounding and incivility, as I would suggest has been my experience with Fabrickator.

@CoffeeCrumbs You wrote,"Polar Apposite's behavior has hardly been stellar, either. The latter has a history of bludgeoning conversations (see flooding the Teahouse and the discussion in Barack Obama) and taking reverts and edits extremely personally" First, whether I have a history of "bludgeoning conversations" at the Teahouse and the discussion at the talk page of the the Barack Obama article has no bearing on whether Fabrickator should be banned from interacting with me, does it? Second, could be specific about what I actually did wrong at those pages? "Flooding" is a bit vague. What I did in the latter case *could* be seen as simply making my case in a very thorough way, with appropriate attention to detail. As for the former, I thought I was allowed to ask as many questions as I wanted. It seems I was wrong about that, but since no one had told me about that rule, "flooding" seems a bit over the top, no pun intended. A giant puddle of tea come to mind :)

You wrote, "They also take every opportunity to take little passive-aggressive digs at Fabrickator, such as pointedly announcing that they are thankful they're not friends on multiple occasions and throwing in words like "harmful" and "incompetent" needlessly in conversations." Again, how about being specific? I think I am allowed to use "harmful" and "incompetent" needlessly on Wikipedia, am I not? And you have made no mention of any of the rude things Fabrickator has said to me. That's interesting, isn't it? You don't look very impartial right now.

You wrote, "In any case, I think this ought to be closed, with a light slap of the trout to Fabrickator to remind them that Polar Apposite's request to stay off their use page should now to be taken as explicit and to Polar Apposite to remind them that every reversion or criticism doesn't amount to a blood feud." Again, are you able to be specific? What specifically did I say (you have no excuse for not being specific, as everything is there in black and white) that warrants a reprimand (light or not) to remind me that "every reversion or criticism doesn't amount to a blood feud"? When did I ever say anything that indicates that I think that? Genuinely curious now.

@The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite I'm actually primarily concerned about his reversions of my good edits. Out of a total of four that I could find, zero were useful, three were harmful, two were undone by other editors, and one was egregious. All of them were bizarre, and the result of following me around Wikipedia. And there was no proper discussion or notification to me. Polar Apposite (talk) 23:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

When people are griping about you bludgeoning discussion, posting massive, badly-formatted walls of text only vindicates those concerns. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 00:04, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I did what I was told to do. Polar Apposite (talk) 01:36, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd be glad to try improve the format. What specifically did you not like about it? Polar Apposite (talk) 20:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the constructive feedback. The links should have been inside words, and I put them all inside words just now. Was that what you had in mind? What else, if anything made call it "badly-formatted"? Cheers. Polar Apposite (talk) 01:04, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm certainly not going to read all of that. TarnishedPath^talk 01:47, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't going to speak up in favor of any administrator(s) taking action regarding either you or Fabrickator, but as you continue to WP:BLUDGEON while ignoring WP:AGF, I'm starting to wonder if you're willing to collaborate with people who disagree with you. It's really unhelpful when you post a giant wall of text, especially when a huge chunk of it is an off-topic wall of text in which you explain that you have your own guidelines that somehow override Wikipedia's at MOS:PHIL. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 04:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

First, whether I have a history of "bludgeoning conversations" at the Teahouse and the discussion at the talk page of the the Barack Obama article has no bearing on whether Fabrickator should be banned from interacting with me, does it?

I'm going to single this out, because the rest of that wall of text is just rambling. Yes, it does have bearing because it can indicate that the problem isn't Fabrickator, it's the fact you keep throwing these lengthy diatriabes up instead of concisely making your points. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:07, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I am just appending this comment at the bottom, I'll remind people that (if you're not subscribed to this specific discussion), it's hard to see the edits that have been made at various places in the text. You might want to look at the "diffs" if it matters to you

Second, I will note that Polar has stated that he never asked me not to post to his "talk" page, so the fact that I made posts to his "talk" page is not per se an issue.

Third, as Polar has pointed out, the Wiki software doesn't allow you to add an edit summary without making some kind of change. If you try to do this, it just silently discards the edit summary provided, so inserting a space character is just a way to get around this behavior. This was something I had been unaware of, so my criticism that he added an extraneous space was unwarranted, and I apologize for that. Fabrickator (talk) 15:22, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Apology accepted, but I still want a permanent interaction ban, ideally one way. Polar Apposite (talk) 12:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's you that should be accepting apologies or demanding things, especially not a one-way interaction ban. You really need to WP:DROPTHESTICK on this before it turns into a boomerang in the form of a motion from an uninvolved editor. TarnishedPath^talk 12:43, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay, another minor point. The interaction ban had been proposed by User:Graham Beards in January (though it's in Graham's talk page archives for 2023 ... see User talk:Graham_Beards/Archives/2023#Please advise me regarding dealing with Fabrickator.). As is clear from this discussion, I do not go along with this proposal. I interpreted this as Graham's attempt to gracefully bow out of the dispute, but I mention it here just because I want to set the record straight. Fabrickator (talk) 15:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for being so reasonable. I think you might want to consider at least acknowledging that you were wrong in thinking that he was bowing out, and maybe apologize to him (optionally). Polar Apposite (talk) 12:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

You need to stop this, right now. TarnishedPath^talk 12:45, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• Polar Apposite, no one, I mean NO ONE, is going to read that wall of text you posted. And they are unlikely to participate in this discussion. And the one thing I remember when I was a regular here at ANI years ago is that you will never get an IBan or TopicBan without considerable community support which you don't have here and are unlikely to receive given these diatribes. You can't just request an IBan and magically have an admin impose it. It has to have support from your fellow editors which isn't going to happen. So, I suggest like most of us, you avoid editors you don't get along with or use Dispute Resolution if that is an appropriate forum for your disagreement. It also seems like this is not a current, intractible dispute but something that has bothered you in the past which makes it even more unlikely that any admin wandering through here will take action. Just my 2 cents. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:45, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'm appending this to the end, like Fabrickator did with his comment. I'm also omitting all pings. Hoping not to be accused of "bludgeoning".

  Although it is true that "I've been busy with some things in real life", as I said above, it's also true that I was quite discouraged by the hostility that I've experienced on Wikpedia, and that my fellow editors seemed not to care about what Fabrickator (and some other editors, but that's another matter) had done to me. That's maybe *why* I busied myself with real life matters for a month or so. So calling the matter "stale" because I took a month break is not appropriate, I think.

  Did I do something wrong that can't be said out loud? Why are so many people being so hostile to me? I feel like people don't care or even would be glad to see stop copyediting Wikipedia.

  Why should Fabrickator continue to get away with wasting my time and worse, reverting my good edits, just because I got in trouble long ago as a newbie, in an unrelated matter? How long am I supposed to be punished for that? Didn't I pay my debt to Wikipedia by being blocked, so to speak?

  And anyway, shouldn't we be prioritizing the project? Good edits are good edits, regardless of who does them, or even why, right? And there's also the time wasted by third parties who undo Fabrickator's reversions of my good edits, which has happened in two out of the four cases. Polar Apposite (talk) 12:51, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  You've not provided any additional evidence or reasoning with this comment. What is the point of this? You've just repeated yourself. Stop now before this becomes a motion about you. TarnishedPath^talk 12:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  I was told [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Polar_Apposite&diff=prev&oldid=1214804087 here]: "Shorter is always better. If you feel that you have something new which will positively contribute to a discussion, you should do so. If you have been warned against excessively posting, though, consider whether you need to post it."

  What I posted was shorter. I felt that I had something new that would be a positive contribution. I considered whether I needed to post it (and concluded that I did). I did exactly what I was I told to do. Polar Apposite (talk) 13:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  No, you really didn't. You posted another evidence-free diatribe. This is becoming disruptive. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Here is a pertinent portion of the discussion with Graham Beards, in which I described Graham's proposal as a way of "graciously bowing out" of the dispute. Fairly shortly after posting this message, I received a thanks from Graham. It would be pretty juvenile to go around parading the fact of having received a "thanks" from somebody, but it is significant here because it seriously contrasts with Polar's interpretation of the situation. Fabrickator (talk) 20:43, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Primarily on Wikipedia to launder neo-nazi cartoonist

CoolidgeCalvin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

StoneToss (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Twice deleted under Stonetoss (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This user has created a new version of this article that appears to be designed to give additional visibility to claims that attempt to contradict the information from the doxxing of StoneToss, which connects StoneToss to the neo-nazi cartoon RedPanels, and I strongly suspect that they are on Wikipedia for this very reason.

References

—Alalch E. 02:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

You mean you're telling me right-wingers are trying to obfuscate the fact that this one guy is StoneToss/RedPanels? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 02:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Trying to promote a counternarrative. Edit: to be more clear: in this instance, using the high-profile platform that is Wikipedia to promote the counternarrative by feebly attempting to subvert the BLP policy. —Alalch E. 02:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

...can I even say the name on Wikipedia? I really want to, but I feel like it would still be a BLP violation. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 03:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand why we can't wait for more news agencies to confirm or deny a claim that could egregiously defame an individual. It's a strawman to state that I want it removed. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 03:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Special:Diff/1214121740.—Alalch E. 03:25, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The sentence was removed because the citation linked together StoneToss and RedPanels. For now, there's no irrefutable proof that they're the same people, and we should be cautious against claiming that people are white supremacists or neo-Nazis, particularly if their personal names are listed. I'm not sure why this is controversial. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 03:40, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Now in the article: The Anti-Defamation League describes him as a far-right illustrator and a political scientist in a reputable journal describes him as an "extreme rightwing cartoonist known for his bigoted work". The reference which you removed in the above diff (it is not one of the two mentioned, it's a third one) has the following words: "In the memesphere, the American webcomic StoneToss has attracted controversy for its Holocaust-denial dog whistlesand other semi-coded references to white supremacist, homophobic, and misogynist thinking." It does not mention RedPanels, and only describes Stonetoss as Stonetoss. You see RedPanels in it despite no mention of RedPanels because that aligns with your goals on Wikipedia, and guided by them you want to remove such information, as you have done in the above diff. —Alalch E. 05:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The problem with that argument is that the Anti-Defamation League has accused almost any critic of Israel and almost any criticism of circumcision as antisemitic. The other source could possibly be included but the article's far too short to only include that opinion. Donald Trump and the Republican Party in general has also been defined by some as "far-right" but it would be unneutral to state that. If StoneToss is confirmed to be Red Panels I'll immediately change my opinion on the matter. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 06:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

If there are reliable sources which state something it is not unneutral to use the reliable sources. NPOV is about going where the RS take us. Please don't gaslight here. It will not go well for you. TarnishedPath^talk 05:37, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

There are reams of reliable sourcing which state unambiguously that StoneToss is a neo-Nazi. This is not a controversial position. Stating the the author of StoneToss is a neo-Nazi is not controversial. TarnishedPath^talk 05:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

You're making some bold accusations against someone who simply suggested that we should wait for more evidence. Anyone who reads the edit history can see that I kept the controversy in the page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=StoneToss&action=history

Nazism is fucking disgusting. The fact that you're attempting to drag my name in the mud is despicable. I politely asked for a response on the talk page and was completely ignored.

Then you immediately started this. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 03:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

This is a complete mischaracterization of what I did. (And anyone here can read the edit history for themselves.)

The citation mentions that: "Others, however, poked holes in the Anonymous Comrades Collective’s investigation and said the group was only able to identify RedPanels, the retired cartoonist who the group said is also StoneToss."

The linkage to RedPanels and StoneToss is mentioned. We should not however state that they're irrefutably the same people or that the identitied individual is without a doubt RedPanels or StoneToss.

These are strong accusations and it would be better if we waited until more news organizations write on the matter. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 02:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:DAILYDOT —Alalch E. 03:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

"There is no consensus regarding the general reliability of The Daily Dot, though it is considered fine for citing non-contentious claims of fact. Some editors have objected to its tone or consider it to be biased or opinionated." CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 03:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

i don't think "significant 'holes' were identified in the doxxing effort, mainly that the individual identified has ties to Red Panels but may not be the same artist behind StoneToss" is a non-contentious claim of fact ? ‍  Elias 🪐  (dreaming of Saturn; talk here) 04:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@CoolidgeCalvin, Have you edited previously to this account? You display a bit of a grasp of WP policies considering your account is only 1 week old and you've only made 46 edits. TarnishedPath^talk 05:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

The initial version created by the above user also promotes the subject in general, which should be telling: special:permalink/1214118239: He is a top influencer on Twitter ...—Alalch E. 03:04, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Being a top influencer isn't always a good thing.

It just means that people interact with your posts. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 03:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I knew you'd say that. My response to that is: You amplified the promotion to leading political influencer on Twitter (Special:Diff/1214119705) —Alalch E. 03:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The actual last edit I made before anyone interacted with it was here. You can see that the RedPanels connection is mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=StoneToss&oldid=1214118693 CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 03:10, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

"Leading political influencer on Twitter" is true. Do you think influential individuals can't be horrendous people? You could have just addressed the concerns that I had raised on the page. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 03:13, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Mentioned yes, as a spin about how the subject is being harassed, and the source (however crappy of a source) does not include the word harassment in that context. —Alalch E. 03:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Doxxing is a form of harassment. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 03:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure, but you must understand that when you create a piece about how a top leading political influencer on Twitter is being harassed but it's a doxxed neo-nazi, and no one but you says he's a leading anything or that he is harassed, and your history of edits shows that you are primarily interested in promoting this perspective, there's a bit of an issue. —Alalch E. 03:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Attempted doxxing is a form of harassment. By definition. Considering that the accused individual has had their extended family's addresses also posted, and they have views that are different to him, even if confirmed, then of course those type of activities are immoral.

His extended family (at the very least) is not responsible for him possibly being evil and a Nazi. Twitter's trust and safety team has described it as harassment. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 03:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Because we all know Twitter is reasonable under Elon Musk. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 03:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Doxxing the family members of bad people is still harassment. Is the brother of Kim Jung Un responsible for his actions? Of course not. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 03:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Probably not the best example. Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:23, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Twitter's trust and safety team has described it as harassment. They have, which is odd cause their policy surrounding harassment does not consider sharing the name of a person to be doxxing, and as Boing Boing noted Twitter have not taken action in other instances of doxxing on the platform, some of which were endorsed by Elon. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:10, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Elon considers sharing the (public) coordinates of his plane to be doxxing. Do we really think Twitter still has a consistent definition for this? Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 04:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Even if StoneToss is confirmed to be a neo-Nazi, posting the home addresses and phone numbers of his family members is clearly doxxing and harassment. What's being disputed here?

Even bad people don't deserve that. If they're misidentified, someone's life could be severely damaged based upon the whims of a mob, so I'm uncertain why several here want to possibly do so. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 06:41, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I've just read the doxxing document from the collective, and while his name, photo and date of birth is in it, as well as a roughly 25 square mile census-designated place, I'm not seeing any evidence of his home address or phone numbers nor the home addresses and phone numbers of any other individuals. Even his email addresses were redacted. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

totally unrelated: their username is a WP:MISLEADNAME, although it's perhaps not the worst given that Coolidge has been dead forever and is very well-known. Queen of Hearts ^she/_they^talk/_stalk 04:02, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I would like to bring attention to the account WalletLantern (talk · contribs), which was created and began editing CoolidgeCalvin's StoneToss article a few minutes after CoolidgeCalvin's final comment here, with the first edit being to remove the speedy deletion template. 203.211.79.73 (talk) 08:40, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Obviously, that (WL) account was intended as a provocation, so blocked indef. Also deleted the bio entry, because that was already decided, twice: once in 2023 and, prior to that, in 2021. So if there is something new that warrants another recreation, it'll have to be presented in WP:DRAFT format, so that the fine folks at WP:AFC can determine what's what — because I am WP:SALT'ing it. El_C 10:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, Draft:Stonetoss was created by Trainrobber66 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) in Jan 2024. It reads: Stonetoss is a satirical comics artist, and that's it. El_C 10:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Should we rewrite the article? trainrobber >be me 10:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Those who are interested, can do so at that draft. If that draft succeeds in passing the WP:AFC process, then the article can be recreated (go live again). El_C 10:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Link to the draft can be here trainrobber >be me 15:02, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

In addition to Draft:Stonetoss there's also Draft:StoneToss. The later is about half a year older, and has slightly more content to it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. I remember typing that (Draft:StoneToss) and there being nothing — I must have typo'd that. Thanks. El_C 07:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm coming late to this but read through the entire discussion until I got to the message about El C deleting the article. Only to see that it is very much alive in main space. Did you expect to see it back in main space the next day, El C? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:31, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Update: I edited the draft, moved it to mainspace based on my editorial judgement, as I found various existing sources, and new significant coverage did materialize in the last few days, then another camel-case-username account appeared from a user who had emailed WMF claiming libel and tagged for G10, Keegan took the tag down, then that user tried to enforce removal leading to 3RRN, leading to a 24h block, but this was then also followed by a CU block. In the meantime, various editors in good standing have seen the article and apparently found no fault with it, and several have edited it. —Alalch E. 11:06, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

An AfD was started after I made the above comment however: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/StoneToss —Alalch E. 16:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

No, Liz, I did not expect it. But if it concludes with a (3rd) deletion outcomes (AfD bold above is my emphasis btw), I'm inclined on salting and move-protecting at admin level (vis-a-vis the inevitable draft) at that time. I suppose we'll see what's what in a week or so. El_C 20:55, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Has anyone seen Special:Diff/1213208139 in which @CoolidgeCalvin argues that gender-affirming surgery is "a form of mutilation". WTF? Can admins please take action on this. TarnishedPath^talk 05:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

an account that has edited primarily in contentious political topics that involve right-wing views... hm. ‍  Elias 🪐  (dreaming of Saturn; talk here) 09:26, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

That's an awful diff but neither having right-wing views or being an SPA is a blockable offense. Bias against transgender people often is. That diff is from March 11th, their first day editing, and since then they have received Contentious Topic warnings. I haven't looked into the other complaints here. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 14:34, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Popping in here to note that the issues of far-right trolling and disruption at StoneToss go beyond any one specific account - we have some pretty obvious sock-puppetry, a lot of disruptive editing, legal threats and other shenanigans. I think additional measures would be valuable in order to ensure these disruptions are quieted. Recommendations include:

• IP Ban for known socks.
• Increasing protection level of the paged.
• More rigid enforcement of WP:CT/AP
• Treatment of the page as subject to WP:CT/R-I

Simonm223 (talk) 13:19, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The page is already adequately protected, socks have been blocked which includes an autoblock. I'd probably be willing to semiprotect the talkpage if disruption continues, but it's borderline right now. We already have AP2 and BLP Contentious Topics tagged on the page, R+I could technically apply too if you stretch it a little but I don't see what that would offer that the existing designations don't. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 14:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

It might get the page on more admins radars - which would probably be a good thing at the moment. Simonm223 (talk) 15:09, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

AfD

This article is being discussed at articles for deletion. Interested editors are invited to participate at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/StoneToss‎. TarnishedPath^talk 11:27, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry/Slotkin article

Wanted to flag the meatpuppetry going on once again on Talk:Elissa Slotkin#Labor Positions and the 2023 UAW strike. It has been admitted to here on Twitter. We have prior examples of issues with sockpuppets and meatpuppetry on this article including Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Thespeedoflightneverchanges and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1135#Thespeedoflightneverchanges. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 05:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Tagging @Muboshgu @Cullen328 @Drmies @ScottishFinnishRadish as admins who've previously resolved issues on this article and @Cpotisch who previously has been canvassed by this banned user. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 05:16, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Adding a bit more detail before I start the workweek and probably won't have a lot of time for finding difs and the such.

I've now notified them so I will directly mention @Andrew.robbins and @Seamusfleming92 as the editors of concern. @OrcaLord is agreeing with them but has more history on Wikipedia (including a previous 3-month ban from Elissa Slotkin) -- while there's likely off-Wiki coordination going on (they follow each other on Twitter) I don't think Orca falls fully within the definition of a meatpuppet.

Both editors recently resurrected their old accounts specifically with a seeming single-minded goal of getting content that was previously removed reinstated into the Elissa Slotkin article. The content was previously advocated for by Thespeedoflightneverchanges or their socks after they were indef banned. This user has previously been identified as this Slotkin-obsessed handle on Twitter which is "urgently" recruiting "experienced wikipedia editor" to continue their anti-Slotkin agenda.

The four articles used by @Andrew.robbins to advocate for their preferred language on talk page are exactly the four articles that the previously-banned editor was using when spamming editors on Twitter for assistance to change this article (see screenshot in this Tweet). Meanwhile, @Seamusfleming92's account seems to have largely been used for blatant vandalism when it was first created back in 2022. Now all it's done is advocate for the previously-banned editor's preferred content on the Slotkin article.

As previously flagged by @Muboshgu and then by @Cpotisch, there is a cohort of editors coordinating offwiki/on Twitter "who all hate Slotkin" attempting to influence this article and this appears to be their latest POV pushing attempt. This article is already ECP and OrcaLord was previously 3-month banned from it for attempting to edit war for his POV. This now seems to their latest attempt to create an artificial consensus on the talk page for their POV edits. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 13:37, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Come on. I was involved with the Slotkin page beforehand for the purpose of copyediting. Its kind of hard for me to be recruited when I was already involved with the page. I am curious how you intend to justify painting me with the twitter-coordination smear without so much as an associated twitter account. And yes, the four articles linked were the exact same as the deleted ones. I was up-front about that and mentioned it in the same talk post for the sake of ease of reference. I simply thought it merited discussion. I think its worthy of note that Dcpoliticaljunkie immediately accused Seamusfleming92 of being a sockpuppet upon first edit of the page. It was closed for utter lack of evidence here. I have serious concerns about violations of WP:NEUTRALEDITOR here. andrew.robbins (talk) 14:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I flagged Seamusfleming92 because it looked DUCK-like to me when they started advocating for exactly what the previously-banned editor previously advocated for. I now realize that it's likely meatpuppetry (as evidenced by recruitment on the banned editor's Twitter). Worth noting that another account I reported was blocked as likely sock.

And it's true: you did resurrect an old account to make copy edits and then 1 week later began doing exactly what the banned editor has publicly posted about recruiting editors to do. That's where my suspicion comes from. Anyway, I will step away here to do some work and we can allow the admins review everything. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 14:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I think its dishonest to classify an account that made sporadic edits every few months going back to March of 2023 (or even July 2022) increasing its activity as "resurrection of an old account". andrew.robbins (talk) 14:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

LOL - let's just be clear. Are you denying any Twitter contact with the banned editor/@Progflippawi on Twitter? Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 13:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

He's one of my ~700 mutuals on twitter. What of it? andrew.robbins (talk) 15:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Also worth noting per Special:Contributions/Seamusfleming92 that there were non-slotkin edits as recently as January. What are we doing here? andrew.robbins (talk) 14:38, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I wrote that post yesterday because I agree with the point, not because I am a meatpuppet. There is no collusion going on between me and any others. If you see my account history I do a lot of edits on other pages and contributing to Wikipedia. I do not plan on editing this page anymore in the future, only talking on the talk page to share my opinion. OrcaLord (talk) 14:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Don’t have the bandwidth to look at the details of this right now but I’ll just say right now that Thespeedoflightneverchanges keeps spamming me on Twitter and getting increasingly desperate to make Slotkin’s article harsher, and has alluded to meatpuppetry. Cpotisch (talk) 17:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

The talk page has been ECP protected which should help things for the moment. The incessant anti-Slotkin invective from Thespeedoflightneverchanges/ProgFlip is quite astounding. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 13:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Said ECP protection was made without justification and I am currently in the process of appealing pending the enforcing admin either responding to my talk page post or coming back online and ignoring it. As an aside, may I remind everyone that thespeedoflightneverchanges is not a direct party to this dispute. andrew.robbins (talk) 15:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

It should be noted that both the Elissa Slotkin article and it's associated talk page are covered under two separate Contentious Topic Procedure rulings, for which page protection (including ECP) is one of the standard restrictions that may be authorized by any uninvolved administrator; there is no requirement for "justification" beyond that administrator's determination that said protection is "necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project." ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 02:54, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:ATPROT ECP on a talk page is generally not considered necessary or proportionate. Regardless, this is a different topic for a different thread. andrew.robbins (talk) 14:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

To close the loop on this before everything moves to the appeal thread, I should point out that the CTOPS procedure is an extraordinary grant of the Arbitration Committee's authority that overrides the standard WP:ATPROT policy and consensus. See, e.g., this current statement from the arbitrators on that exact topic, from a different case. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 17:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

keyword can. I'm more explicit about which part I'm challenging on the other thread. andrew.robbins (talk) 17:06, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Yep, the clarification there is helpful. Thanks. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 17:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you to Andrew for admitting to off-wiki contact with the blocked editor. I think we can fill in the rest.

Anyone who looks at the blocked editor's Twitter account can see what their obsession is: even their pinned Tweet is about their attempts to push their agenda on the relevant Wikipedia page. The fact that there's off-wiki organizing/recruitment to swing discussions in an attempt to create a false consensus could not be clearer imo. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 16:55, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

You are drawing conclusions that are not supported by what I said. I have hundreds of mutual followers. One of those several hundred people posting intent-to-commit-meatpuppetry on their public TL does not mean that I was recruited. I live in Michigan and am present in the election-focused corner of twitter and am fairly sure that everyone involved on that discussion page is as well. Of course I am going to be interested in the upcoming senate primary.

Also, if we're taking what ProgFlip says seriously, that pinned tweet is claiming that he successfully meatpuppeted Cpotisch at one point. Is that not worthy of mention? If not, why this? andrew.robbins (talk) 18:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I would like to be clear. I am not accusing Cpotisch of meatpuppetry. I am simply pointing out a double-standard in Dcpoliticaljunkie's accusations that fall entirely on ideological lines. andrew.robbins (talk) 19:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 20:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

rather than justify this clear bad faith with a substantive response I'm simply going to ask admins to either come to a decision or to lock this topic. It has been five days. Let's move on with our lives please. andrew.robbins (talk) 20:58, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that Dcpoliticaljunkie is actively canvassing friendly admins at Special:Diff/1214818834/1214844636. This is a WP:HUNT. andrew.robbins (talk) 21:30, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Monarchy of Canada

I propose that User:Miesianiacal be topic banned from monarchy of Canada, either broadly or more narrowly from the base article. It shouldn't require a minimum of two RfCs (Talk:Monarchy of Canada#Meaning of reside and Talk:Monarchy of Canada#RFC: Should it be mentioned in this article, that the Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom?) to insert the simple, obvious and uncontentious fact that the Canadian monarch lives in the UK. Yet, we are forced to endure bludgeoning of debates[122], disruptive cite tagging,[123][124][125] and WP:POINTy tendentious editing from this single editor every time any other editor tries to edit an article owned by Miesianiacal, who is responsible for more than 75% of edits to the page.[126] The article is a farcical assembly of twisted sources and absurd original research perpetuating a ridiculous myth that the King of Canada is Canadian. It will only improve when the influence of this editor is removed. DrKay (talk) 21:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

- I would just like to add that, as we can see here, there seems to have been a productive consensus arrived at, and this without any negative behaviour that I can see. I will not pretend to be aware or delved into the material prior to my own involvement, so will not judge specific behaviour of individual editors for which I'm not aware, I only note that from my point of view, it seems that the Talk process worked and is working, and all in a respectful and positive way at Monarchy of Canada Talk and Main Space. Again, maybe there had been a bit of a breakdown warranting something, not sure, I'm only speaking to what I've seen since myself becoming a member of the discussion at that Talk page. trackratte (talk) 16:22, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

If there is a consensus in that article it has been arrived at during Miesianiacal's current absence (and during his temporary ban from editing the article). Wellington Bay (talk) 16:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay thankyou. What was his main point that was not valid? Which I mean, what part of what he was advocating for is not reflected in the current consensus? I'm having a hard time figuring out what exact statement was meriting a block. trackratte (talk) 16:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

There seems to be two allegations here. There's bludgeoning etc at Talk:Monarchy of Canada#RFC: Should it be mentioned in this article, that the Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom?. This has diffs and looking at the thread seems to have a basis. But the second half of the post broadens out to a WP:OWN accusation and being responsible for "a farcical assembly of twisted sources and absurd original research", but there are no diffs for that. The former (for a longstanding editor) deserves a warning. The latter needs more evidence to be actioned to a full TBAN or even a PBAN. DeCausa (talk) 22:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Not long ago, this editor searched out articles with royal-sounding names, and then added that these article were named after royalty. I reverted most of the edits, as they were unsourced and probably not true, but not without pushback. You can see one of the discussions at Talk:Victoria Park Collegiate Institute#Royalty?. --Magnolia677 (talk) 22:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

@DeCausa: It took me ages to track down, but I recently removed 3 bits of original research not found in the citations from the article, and they were all added by Miesianiacal or his previous account: Removed citation added by Miesianiacal's old account: [127]; Removed citation added by Miesianiacal's old account: [128]; Removed unverified claim added by Miesianiacal: [129]. I've only really looked at the first two paragraphs of the Residences section, so there could be more elsewhere. Celia Homeford (talk) 10:46, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Those edits are from 14/15 years ago. I don't think they would or could be used to support action now. DeCausa (talk) 19:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The 'age' of an edit does not necessarily matter, given that there's always the possibility of erroneous information remaining in an article for years to come. Keivan.f^Talk 23:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Is this editor not already block from Monarchy of Canada articles? Moxy🍁 04:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

He was banned on March 13 for two weeks. Wellington Bay (talk) 16:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@DeCausa: The named after royalty edits were just a few months ago. There's a long-standing issue of problematic editing wrt the monarchy. Meters (talk) 18:44, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't really understand what's meant by "The named after royalty edits were just a few months ago". All I was saying is that edits from 14/15 years won't be taken into account. I dont think that's much in doubt. DeCausa (talk) 20:18, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Magnolia677's post preceding post included "Not long ago, this editor searched out articles with royal-sounding names, and then added that these article were named after royalty ". That's why I wrote There's a long-standing issue of problematic editing wrt the monarchy. Meters (talk) 19:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I did not add "[this was] named after royalty" to any articles, unless with a reliable source. What Magnolia677 is referring to is my adding to articles on places listed at Royal eponyms in Canada a link to that article in the "See also" section, a number of which were removed and I didn't dispute the deletion. I think Victoria Park Collegiate Institute is the only article on which I argued for reinsertion and found cited info to support the connection to Royal eponyms in Canada. It was deleted two and a half hours later and that's the way it's remained ever since. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 02:32, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support sanctions, if not an article or topic ban then a revert restriction or talk page interaction ban. I don't think a warning will be adequate. This is essentially the same issue that I raised at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive467#User:Miesianiacal reported by User:Celia Homeford (Result: No violation) and that was raised at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1127#Multiple issues at Charles III/Talk:Charles III. Miesianiacal gets away with his behaviour because he acts within the letter of the rules while ignoring their spirit; he knows how to game the system. When challenged, he goes on the attack instead of addressing his own behaviour: for example accusing me of harassment even though I was required to notify him[130] or refusing to listen when challenged on civility: [131][132]. Before IncidentArchive1127 there were multiple requests for comment at Charles III, which closed against him; he then went to third opinion, which was rejected, and then to the dispute resolution noticeboard, which was rejected (diffs are all at IncidentArchive1127). So, he went forum-shopping to the administrators' noticeboard with a cherry-picked selection of edits that were better than his own behaviour. That is his typical operating style: delay, dismiss, attack, and never surrender. The tactic is to pursue endless circular debate, blame everyone else, and refuse to listen to or accept any counter-argument or advice. The same thing that happened at Charles III is happening at Monarchy of Canada: we are forced to go through multiple requests for comment to make the simplest change (with the result that editors wonder what we're doing: [133]). Once the discussion starts, we then suffer through his sabotage of the debate, such as refusing to accept sources that disprove his argument, for example [134] backtracking from [135]. Celia Homeford (talk) 10:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe there are also WP:OWN issues at Monarchism in Canada and Republicanism in Canada, particularly the former. Miesianiacal has strenuously objected to updating the articles to include references to opinion polls taken in the past two years that show there is greater support for removing the monarchy than there is for retaining it. (see [136]) and Republicanism in Canada (see Talk:Republicanism in Canada). At present the polls cited in Monarchism in Canada are at least 15 years old.

In Republicanism in Canada he claimed this wording was not neutral: ""Polls conducted on the subject of abolition of the Canadian Crown in 2022 and 2023, following the accession of Charles III, suggested that a majority of Canadians think there should be a referendum on the future of the monarchy and that more Canadians favour becoming a republic than do retaining the monarchy" (he reverted similar wording in the monarchism article.) Instead, he wrote this wording which mentions only that polling occurred without any reference to the polling result. His "neutral" wording was:"Polls have been conducted on the subject of abolition of the Canadian Crown."Wellington Bay (talk) 17:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

What, if any, administrative or community action would you support? Celia Homeford (talk) 10:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Support topic ban - the ban could be reconsidered at a later point but present the editor shows no capacity to negotiate or seek or accept compromise, or collaborate, let alone accept a consensus view he disagrees with. Wellington Bay (talk)

• I read Talk:Monarchy of Canada#RFC: Should it be mentioned in this article, that the Canadian monarch resides in the United Kingdom? and my brain attempted to leave my skull. I have never seen such a nonsensical collection of distorted logic, and yes, a narrow article ban should be considered for at least one editor (the one mentioned in the lead here). Black Kite (talk) 20:44, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for Miesianiacal from the Canadian monarchy, broadly construed. If this type of behavior migrates to other topic areas, broader restrictions may be required. This is classic POV pushing. Cullen328 (talk) 21:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• Do not support There are a multitude of pieces including several articles and different conversations in this accusation, however, I did read one (the question of residency), and I am not comfortable with the idea of sanctioning a long-time editor with considerable expertise in the area simply for being firm on a specific point on a Talk page which would seem to me to undermine the point of the Talk page in the first place, and in the spirit of lively debate with a minimum standard of decorum, as that's how we elucidate (ideally) the best way forward in good-faith, as opposed to single-editor dictatorship or mob-rule, both of which are to be strenuously avoided.
  Second, the article states that Charles III lives in the UK last I checked, so I'm not quite sure what the core issue is. Clearly no one is currently standing in the way of portraying that fact.
  In this case's Talk Page, there is a valid logical argument to made on the important distinction on the separation of office from an individual person. A slightly humorous example would be that, just because the current Prime Minister is Justin Trudeau, the official residence of the Prime Minister is 24 Sussex, and Justin Trudeau is also the coach of the little league team the Ottawa Cubs, that does not mean that the official residence of the Coach of the Ottawa Cubs is 24 Sussex, nor even that Justin Trudeau even lives at 24 Sussex. So, in this case, the monarch of the UK is, from Canada's point of view, a foreign head of state. The King of Canada does not have any official residences in the UK, but the King of Canada does have official residences in Canada. Where Charles III sleeps at night, or where the King of the UK as a foreign head of state lives has no bearing on the status or the location of a Canadian official residence. Unless I am mistaken, I believe that was the sticking point or the point that was trying to me made, and as I said, I think such a point is valid as is the logic behind it. And so the consensus I believe that is reflected in the article, or should be, is that the King of Canada has official residences in Canada, and that Charles III himself predominantly lives in the UK. No one should be censured for contributing to that consensus.
  Is it a little bit arcane and pedantic? Yes. But that is often the nature of deep-dive discussions of certain topics, particularly ones swirling around constitutional politics.
  As there was a bit of a swirl of allegations, please feel free to be more specific if you feel I've missed the most salient or fundamental issue under discussion here. trackratte (talk) 18:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I take it all are aware these are called "Canada’s Official Residences" would be best if terms are not madeup. Would help things alot I think. Moxy🍁 18:49, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban per Cullen328. The bludgeoning has to stop. Look, I understand the kind of pedantry that surrounds the issue. My first few years on this project were almost solely devoted to peerage matters. But this is too much. Mackensen (talk) 19:09, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support some sort of action if Miesianical doesn't strongly commit to accepting feedback and accepting consensus does not always line up with his personal slant. On one hand, Miesianiacal has contributed a lot of content on royalty in Canada, which is mostly good, and deserves some shout-outs for that. And... I get it. There are some articles on Wiki where having a "guard dog" editor hazing new edits closely can actually be a good thing (medical articles most famously, perhaps). If Miesianiacal was providing "stewardship" that occasionally was a tad tendentious, I get it. However... I'm not sure that's really the case here, and rather Miesianiacal himself is the issue, inserting POV slants in articles that do not accord with the sources, which makes any OWNership concerns much more pressing. So yes, this is ANI not a content board, but it's relevant, so let's look at Miesianiacal's grasp of content. Take a look at this old revision of Monarchies in the Americas for example: it distinguishes "American monarchies" from "Foreign monarchies" as if there was some sort of substantive difference between the King of Denmark ruling Greenland from afar and Charles III ruling Jamaica from afar. Which, strictly speaking, there is a difference of course, but a wildly overblown one that is hardly section-heading level worthy. Or take the line "Most pre-Columbian cultures of the Americas developed and flourished for centuries under monarchical systems of government." Totally bonkers and unsourced, and tying the "flourishing" to the monarchial system of government. More generally, we simply do not know the details of the government system of "most pre-Columbian cultures." It's just wild speculation. That's just the start of the problems with the old article. (I'm picking on it specifically because it was at GAR a bit ago and I took a look into it, where it was wildly overplaying certain "monarchies" and their level of support, like treating Arucania & Patagonia as if it were a real state and not a fantasy.) I'd argue that all of the provincial level "Monarchies of XYZ" are problematic for example, with the possible exception of Monarchy in Quebec (although... I'd really want to triple-check all the sources talking about just how much the Quebecois loved their monarch back in the day as being valid and not Anglophone Canada wishful thinking.) Take a look at Monarchy in Alberta, for example, which should probably be reformulated into something else as it's a lot of talking about nothing in particular. A very small number of people turned out for some event honoring the Queen? Stop the presses. Okay, back to conduct: Miesianical being a Canadian monarchist isn't a problem, exactly. But going against their wishes is really not worth it due to the risk of bludgeoning talk page conversations or edit wars (the one time I did, on something I considered a slam dunk on sourcing grounds, felt like pulling teeth, but also happened ages ago at this point, so not worth rehashing). If Miesianiacal can just seriously commit to toning it down a bit and being willing to take the L when others disagree, then no need to do anything other than verify he's keeping the commitment. But otherwise, yeah, maybe time for a topic ban. (And per above, if a topic ban happened, I'd strongly encourage Miesianiacal not to continue the exact same behavior at other Commonwealth monarchies- going around to give the same treatment to Monarchy of The Bahamas subarticles would not really solve the problems here.) SnowFire (talk) 19:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
• Also support some sort of action if Miesianical doesn't make efforts to be more collaborative. I haven't had any run-ins with them in quite some time because, frankly, I have very limited interest in monarchy. However my past interactions with them are very much in line with what others have said here - a tendency toward WP:OWN, bludgeoning on talk page and walking right to the edge of WP:3RR. If they're still up to these antics nearly a decade on then I'd say they should be invited to consider making some changes to their editing behaviour. Simonm223 (talk) 13:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from anything to do with the Canadian monarchy & perhaps the monarchies of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms (past & current) broadly construed. Indeed, two RFCs shouldn't have been required at Monarchy of Canada, but I didn't know what else to do to stop the disruption. Also see this RfC at British royal family, from about a year ago. GoodDay (talk) 15:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support topic ban per user:Cullen. Off the top of my head I don't remember noticing this editor's work in other areas, but certainly the Canadian area is an issue. I don't believe this editor's bludgeoning is made in good faith. Meters (talk) 18:49, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support - As mentioned, my experience at Talk:Victoria Park Collegiate Institute#Royalty? and similar articles was not positive. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

As the person who started this is pointing specifically to Monarchy of Canada and disputing something is not a crime (if it were, all those here referencing the disputes they were engaged in with me on other articles over many months through the past would be guilty of it, as well), I'm only going to address matters at Monarchy of Canada; for now, anyway. Alone, I can only deal with one thing at a time.

This is not proof of bludgeoning. It's one person's opinion and one can see, preceding the person's remark, they asserted, "you've said your piece," when I hadn't actually said any piece, I'd asked a question: "So, what now?" That's an invitation to move forward toward a resolution. Indeed, in the preamble to that question, I acknowledged the source DrKay provided and the fact it supported the statement, "the Canadian monarch lives in the United Kingdom". I even made the point of the question clear: "there are now two takes on this: 'the monarch is represented by viceroys in Canada because he lives in the UK' and 'the monarch is represented by viceroys in Canada because he is monarch of 14 other countries and his principal residence is in the UK', each supported by one RS." That very evidenlty accepts DrKay's source, as it sought to find a way to deal with two sources--DrKay's one and this one--saying two not necessarily mutually exclusive, but, different things. DrKay chose never to answer the question, thereby exacerbating dispute, rather than working toward a resolution.

That continues in the same vein:

• This is a question
• This is agreeing with someone
• This isn't pushing anything; it's a comment on DrKay's misunderstanding of the dispute (he thinks I (and at least one other) want to have the article say the monarch lives in Canada, when I never, ever (and I mean ever) did)
• This is again agreeing with someone
• This is a civil attempt to get a reverting editor to explain his edits and/or desired edits
• This and this were part of an agreeable discussion

And that's the sum total of my contributions to the RfC, aside from my own answer to it. If anyone can explain how that meets the definition of "bludeoning", I'm truly fascinated to read it.

I haven't been blocked from Talk:Monarchy of Canada. So, my absence from the discussion is only because I haven't been on Wikipedia over the past few days and correlation does not imply causation.

There was more than a week between the placement of This tag (which was quickly thereafter moved by me to make clear I was not challenging the claim that the monarch resides in the UK) and these tags. The latter two are two completely different tags addressing two different variations of an edited sentence. Tagging disputed material is not a crime and I clearly brought up at talk the issues the tags were flagging, exactly as one is supposed to do. Again, how that's "disruptive cite tagging" (even the spirit thereof) requires further explanation, including how DrKay placing numerous tags on 4 March and 5 March, employing his usual tactic of "discussion by edit summary", is not.

There's no proof given of "WP:POINTy tendentious editing". There's no proof given of my making such edits "every time any other editor tries to edit [the] article". There's no proof given of the article being a "farcical assembly of twisted sources and absurd original research perpetuating a ridiculous myth."

And "[this proves] how nasty and desperate you are" [137], from DrKay on Talk:Monarchy of Canada, is an overt personal attack, which a continuation of the earlier attacks from him that both crossed and didn't quite cross WP:NPA: "Don't play stupid, you know damn well what's meant" [138]; “you are ruining more than one article on my watchlist” [139]; "you don't assume good faith [...] Treat them like shit you've scraped off the bottom of your shoe and they will likely respond by blanking your messages to them and asking you not to message anymore. Please do not message me anymore" [140]; this accusation of bad faith; this unconstructive attempt at besmirchment; etc. There are certainly zero examples of my expressing anything to DrKay that violates WP:NPA.

Again, eludication on the matters of bludgeoning and abusive cite tagging would be helpful so I can have clear understanding of the rules so I can follow them properly, if, indeed, I haven't been, so far. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 02:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Repeated WP:NOR violations (and general unsourced additions) by Gabrielcheong

Gabrielcheong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has persistently added unsourced content and personal analyses into several Shinkansen articles (1, 2, 3, 4), despite numerous warnings. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 14:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

For the record, they removed the notice I placed on their talk page. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 18:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I also have a sneaking suspicion that they may also have made such edits while logged out. The following IPs have edited in a similar fashion, but this could be completely coincidental:

• 180.219.75.107 (talk · contribs)
• 49.130.198.238 (talk · contribs)

XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 02:02, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Repeated disruptive editing by User:Ugaas Raage

Ugaas Raage (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Repeated edit warring and disruptive editing, largely consisting of borderline hagiographical changes to articles about Somali military leaders. Pretty much every edit by them ever is evidence of this, but here are some pages where their conduct is particularly egregious:

Mohammad Ali Samatar (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Mohammed Abdullah Hassan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Siad Barre (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

User @Nirva20 also catalogued some of this behavior at WP:NPOV/Noticeboard § User:Ugaas Raage (notified of this neutral point of view noticeboard discussion). Brusquedandelion (talk) 17:10, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Most recent unexplained, non-editsummaried mobile edit vandalism by Ugaas Raage ([141]). Nirva20 (talk) 18:45, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Trollish legal threats at StoneToss

This was hastily reverted but should probably be revdel'd. [142] Furthermore an IP ban on the troll who keeps creating sock puppets to troll this page might be in order. Simonm223 (talk) 17:57, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

That user (LegalNotice88 (talk · contribs)) as well as Benchmarkingsalad (talk · contribs) are pretty obviously socks of ShownDownl (talk · contribs). - MrOllie (talk) 18:06, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

And now FlowerTrooning (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) MrOllie (talk) 20:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

AfD

This article is being discussed at articles for deletion. Interested editors are invited to participate at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/StoneToss‎. TarnishedPath^talk 11:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Removal of sourced content by Rundbowie, edits consistent with other accounts

• Rundbowie (talk · contribs) has several times removed well sourced content at Courtney Dauwalter and Kílian Jornet Burgada--content in question isn't puffery if it's been well established. There's also an interest in adding to Camille Herron, which corresponds with the edit warring by Temporun73 (talk · contribs) and 199.48.98.153 (talk · contribs), also this [143]. Additionally, the newer account was created February 8, hours after the first account was blocked. Altogether, this looks like one or several related users with an agenda re: ultramarathon competitors. I don't think I'm alone in drawing this conclusion [144]. More eyes appreciated. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 04:00, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Removal of sourced and notable content by Hotwiki

Hotwiki (talk · contribs) has been repeatedly excluding well-sourced information in a certain article,Tahanang Pinakamasaya - he questions the alleged trivial nature of the added information, which, for me, contradicts how WP:GNG and WP:DIRECTIORY works. There has been numerous similar incidents whereas the user has been disruptively editing various articles based on his views, and not by the manual/rule/standards in this website in particular. Pinoy Wikipedian Pride (talk) 09:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• You didn't give hard examples, so I had to just go and see what he reverted of yours. I don't see his actions as violating any policies, you just disagree with him on what the content should be. ie: this is a content dispute, and not a behavioral issue. From an editors perspective, his removal of the replacement show under WP:DIRECTORY seems like a pretty valid edit, as the article is about the show, not what replaced the show, which is pretty irrelevant since we aren't a TV Guide or Directory. I recommend using the talk page of the article and try to build a consensus for changes you want to make that get reverted. This is covered in WP:BRD. Nothing wrong with making a bold edit, but if it gets reverted, it is expected that you will go to the talk page and discuss it with others, and not revert it back in. Unless you have examples of actual bad behavior, I don't see anything to do here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 10:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

  I simply removed an unimportant content and I explained it Twice through my edit summary, when I removed that trivial statement. The show Tahanang Pinakamasaya's replacement in its timeslot — is a movie block which doesn't even have its own Wikipedia article, which lacks notability. The other show, It's Showtime didn't replace Tahanang Pinakamasaya as well for it to be mentioned in the article. Hotwiki (talk) 14:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• Agreed with both here; mentioning the replacement for a show which was clearly intended as lawsuit-related filler in the Great Filipino Lunchtime Variety Hour Wars®️ wasn't needed here, nor that a filler film block replaced it. Not every article about a Filipino show airing in mid-day has to mention this thing that seems to be a hot point for the Filipino part of WP:TV, which has been warned so many time to keep things focused on neutrality instead of being territorial about ABS-CBN vs. GMA vs. Five or whatever. Removal justified under WP:NOTTVGUIDE. Nate • (chatter) 21:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:Nathanlong3010

Nathanlong3010 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This account seems to be entirely dedicated to changing the nationalities of association football players' pages against the consensus. For football players with disputed nationalities, (i.e. born in a different country to the one they represent at international level) nationalities are not listed. However, this editor continually adds nationalities for these players against consensus. The editor has had numerous warnings on their talk page about this and has previously received a block due to this behaviour. The rule regarding nationalities has been explained to them explicitly on their talk page, to which they replied that they understood, before continuing to do the exact same thing. The user also continually edit wars to keep the nationalities in.

Most of their contributions seem to be to change nationalities incorrectly, but to provide a few diffs: [145] [146] [147] [148] Michaeldble (talk) 12:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

A glance at their talk page shows this is a long term issue which they have been warned about many times, and previously blocked for. Unfortunately, seems a longer term block or topic ban might be in order. WaggersTALK 14:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

As one of several editors who have issued escalating warnings about this problem since 2022, I regret that I have to agree. Certes (talk) 22:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I've p-blocked from article space to see if we can get this editor's attention. Valereee (talk) 13:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Deletions of (article) talk page material

I have a long-running dispute that has started on 8. January when User:Chaheel Riens deleted 26 KiB of talk page material. I would like the mentioned 26 KiB of deleted talk page material to be restored (archiving it would also be fine with me). However, this dispute is interrelated with the correct interpretation of WP:TPO, and it might have important consequences as such.

As a justification for his actions, User:Chaheel Riens provided WP:FORUM, WP:OR and WP:NOTHOWTO, here. After some further arguments and counter-arguments, he refused to properly argue . I think that there was some amount of WP:LAWYERING involved on his part, but I don't see that as important.

I took the issue to the DRN, but it was not successful. However, my conclusion was that DRN was not a proper venue, because the central issue is the deletion of 26 KiB of talk page material, which is a conduct issue.

The relevant guideline related to this problem seems to be WP:TPO. Some experienced editors are interpreting it as supporting the disputed deletion, while other experienced editors are of the opposite opinion. The editors who support the deletion are referencing various parts of WP:OR to justify the disputed deletion. In my opinion, such justifications are invalid, because WP:OR clearly states: This policy does not apply to talk pages... Other justifications for deletion are invalid due to similar reasons. My conclusion is that the policies are supporting my side of the argument, therefore the deleted talk page material should be restored and then archived.

Currently, this dispute is stuck at some kind of status quo, as I was absent for a month, and other editors apparently refused to argue further. I think that further arguments would be futile anyway, because this dispute is essentially about two widely different interpretations of WP:TPO, as it was noticed here .

This dispute is unlikely to be resolved by any kind of discussion between involved parties. I judge that WP:ANI is the relevant authority for this kind of disagreement, because deletions of talk page material are conduct issues. To escape the status quo, some definitive guidance is needed about the proper course of action in this dispute.

Initial discussion at ZX Spectrum graphic modes

Link to the continuation of discussion after DRN failed.

Link to the discussion at WP:TPG talk page.

- Z80Spectrum (talk) 16:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Is this still the same discussion where you pretty much accused me of being a scammer and a liar? I distanced myself when it because clear it was turning into a slow-motion train crash while beating the dead horse at the same time. I've given a cursory glance over it since I last commented, and you don't seem to be gaining much favour - even the editor who was critical of me seems to have washed their hands of you and the discussion. This could be a case of WP:FILLIBUSTER where you just go on and on and on and on and on until everybody simply gives up in exasperation. I've taken the liberty of pinging the other involved editors who were missed, but the discussion is such a mess it's hard to see if all have been included. Chaheel Riens (talk) 16:52, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I have never accused you, or anyone, of being scammers and liars. It is just your interpretation of one hypothetical statement of mine, which I posted in a separate discussion about copyright issues [149] [150] that isn't really related to this one. I apologize to you any everyone involved if you were offended by a lack of clarity in my writings, because I don't think that you are a scammer or a liar.

I argue that what you have just suggested is essentially an attempt to perpetuate the status quo. Z80Spectrum (talk) 17:09, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@Z80Spectrum: You mentioned "the possbility that some Wikipedia editors might be liars and scammers". Would you have included Chaheel Riens in that group? City of Silver 18:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I must admit that, at that specific moment, I was quite confused about what is happening. Therefore, my statement in question did not refer to anyone in particular. The copyright issues are a serious problem, and my statement was intended to alert to the importance of those issues. I appologized here to another user, User:4throck, who might have been most obviously affected by that unfortunate statement of mine. Z80Spectrum (talk) 18:43, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

This doesn't belong here or indeed anywhere. The proper path forward is to work on something else. What practical difference is there between moving this information to the talk page archive vs having it available in diffs? Unwillingness to repeat oneself endlessly is not "refused to properly argue." VQuakr (talk) 18:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• Not again! - I tried to mediate the dispute, which was originally presented as an article content dispute, but was really mostly a dispute about the removal of talk page material. I developed DRN Rule F and was preparing to mediate a discussion about the removal or restoration of the article talk page material. User:Z80Spectrum then began discussing the dispute with User:Ritchie333, an end run around my mediation, so I failed the mediation.
• I will comment that I started off sympathetic to User:Z80Spectrum about the talk page edits. The guidelines on editing other editors' talk page posts are poorly written, and do not clarify when the removal of talk page material is in order. My opinion is that they should state that removal is only rarely appropriate, and that normally disputed talk page material should be either archived or userfied. So I started out thinking that User:Chaheel Riens had been overly aggressive, but I tried to maintain neutrality. User:Z80Spectrum soon acted aggressively, making an accusation on the talk page of User:Ritchie333 that I still don't entirely understand, but that appeared to be casting aspersions. Two months later is late to apologize for a personal attack that was called out at the time. Now User:Z80Spectrum wants to reopen a dispute that had faded away more than a month ago.
• This filing is a boomerang thrown by User:Z80Spectrum. If the community agrees with User:VQuakr that there isn't a current issue, then the issue is what to do about this vexatious litigation by the filing editor. I think that there wasn't a current issue until this report was filed, but now this report is reopening something.
• One possible resolution to this case would be a one-way interaction ban on User:Z80Spectrum against interacting with or attacking User:Chaheel Riens.Robert McClenon (talk) 05:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not very glad to read this opinion of yours. I would have liked it better if you had communicated it to me earlier, which wasn't the case. I'm not "reopening" this dispute, as the dispute was never closed.

  I would like to point out that all I want is the 26 KiB of deleted talk page material to be restored and archived (that's the primary reason for this WP:ANI report). I will accept the interaction ban on my behalf, or any similar measure, to get that deleted content restored. I also wanted to clarify the ambiguities in the WP:TPG guideline, but that is secondary. This dispute is not about opinions, it is about proper application of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and those are not decided by a community vote.

  I think that your accusation of vexatious litigation is not very nice. What else should I have done to get the deleted content restored? Did I not do everything you have suggested to me? Did you communicate any other suggestions to me earlier? I do not care about any measures to User:Chaheel Riens, as I have said earlier on your talk page.

  From my point of view, User:Chaheel Riens was misinterpreting my words so I felt no need to apologize on my own incentive. If he had asked me to apologize on my talk page, I would have apologized. I even apologized to one unrelated editor, here [151]. The discussion at DRN was interrupted due to the copyright issues, and I considered those a priority over the DRN discussion. In spite of your alleged "sympathetic" stance towards me, your post is a one way attack against me, with not a single word said in defense of my perspective. Therefore, I doubt your neutrality.

  I certainly don't want this discussion to get derailed again by off-topic comments, so I would like to remind that the reported issue is the deletion of 26 KiB of talk page material. If my conduct had not been stellar, I will accept the consequences, I will accept the boomerang, but I won't accept if the reported issue is completely ignored. Z80Spectrum (talk) 06:24, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: I think this boomerang has NOTHERRE written on it; way too much valuable time has been wasted on this.  // Timothy :: talk  05:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Another Reply to User:Z80Spectrum

User:Z80Spectrum writes:

I'm not very glad to read this opinion of yours. I would have liked it better if you had communicated it to me earlier, which wasn't the case. I'm not "reopening" this dispute, as the dispute was never closed.

When earlier would you have wanted me to communicate with you? In early February? I started a discussion of talk page removals at the Talk Page Guidelines talk page, in which I said that the talk page guidelines about removal of talk page posts were poorly written. Between 4 March and 17 March? You took a break from editing. If you were ill, I am sorry that you were ill and hope you have recovered. If so, I apologize for any rudeness on my part.

You say that the dispute was never closed. It was never closed at the Talk Page Guidelines talk page. It was closed at DRN. It appears that it was closed there because you entangled it with an attempt to discuss a copyright issue, in which you said that you had evidence that some editors were scammers and liars. It was your fault that you entangled two disputes, which confused me and confused User:Ritchie333, and looked to me like a personal attack on User:Chaheel Riens.

It is true that I am no longer sympathetic or neutral. That is your own fault.

If you were ill, I am sorry, and I hope that you have recovered. In any case, the talk page removal is not a conduct issue, because it is an issue of a poorly worded guideline. If there is any conduct issue, it is your conduct. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Pt1. User:Robert McClenon said: When earlier would you have wanted me to communicate with you?

For example, at any time after 21 February 2024 would have been fine, after I had pinged you.

Pt2. User:Robert McClenon said: It was closed at DRN. It appears that it was closed there because you entangled it with an attempt to discuss a copyright issue [...cut...] It was your fault that you entangled two disputes [...]

No, it was not my fault. Or, maybe it is my fault, if I was supposed to stop the editing completely while the DRN case was in progress. How could I had known in advance that my attempt to coordinate efforts with User:4throck would lead me to stumble upon the copyright issue (which is at the end of a discussion with him)?

User:4throck was previously mostly sympathetic towards me and my writings, like in this comment, which is a part of the 26 KiB of deleted content.

Pt3. User:Robert McClenon said: [...] you entangled it with an attempt to discuss a copyright issue, in which you said that you had evidence that some editors were scammers and liars.

No, that is just your interpretation. I have said: "You must consider the possibility that some Wikipedia editors might be liars and scammers.", here. There is a big difference. Notice the words "possibility" and "might". I don't like such serious misinterpretations of my words.

Pt4. User:Robert McClenon said: It is true that I am no longer sympathetic or neutral. That is your own fault.

The evidence is mounting that you were never sympathetic or neutral. For example at DRN, you took no action against this comment, where another editor is acting contrary to your Wikipedia:DRN Rule F, section 9 (also, in my opinion User:Chaheel Riens is completely misinterpreting the "archiving problem" there).

Two days before that, I reported this case to WP:ANI, based on what you have said

here, and based on behavior of User:Chaheel Riens, where it took him 42 hours to reply with this comment where I was accused of making a "threat".

After I reported the case to WP:ANI, you have proposed to continue the moderated discussion, which was fine. However, after I objected , the case at ANI should have been reopened, and the case at DRN should have been closed, as you have previously stated. Instead, you said I would suggest that you follow the guidance of User:Ritchie333 who closed your complaint at WP:ANI., defending the inappropriate closure of my case at WP:ANI. I agreed, nonetheless. However, given all that has happened at the DRN, it was quickly getting obvious that the case has no chance of succeeding, and it was getting worse by a series of misinterpretations by User:Chaheel Riens. For example: I was the one who agreed to archiving, and I clearly stated it at least three times: here , here, and much earlier, here on User:Chaheel Riens talk page. In the DRN discussion, User:Chaheel Riens was constantly making it appear as if I had something against archiving, by citing various technical trivialities, and by attempting to dodge the archiving question as long as possible.

Pt5. However, I decided to interpret all that as a honest mistake on your part, User:Robert McClenon. I considered that the "honest mistake" interpretation is the most likely one.

Pt6. By the time I raised the copyright issue, the discussion at DRN had already have failed, at least from my point of view. I also consider the legal situation with copyright to be of much higher priority.

Pt7. I judge that all the arguments against me are either gross misinterpretations of my words or gross misinterpretations of the entire situation. From my point of view, it is now quite likely that some of those misinterpretations were intentional, and some are a consequence of common human biases (i.e. User:Robert McClenon is far from being neutral, he is just acting in support of a long term editor, and against me as a newbie). I judge that even such are a normal and expected part of discussions.

All the evidence shows that I was the one who had a lot of sympathy for both User:Robert McClenon and for User:Chaheel Riens, and I still do. I'm willing to instantly forget all the injustices that you have done to me, under the condition that the 26 KiB of deleted material is restored. Then we can engage in a discussion whether that material is WP:OR, or not, on the "ZX Spectrum graphics modes" page, and any further implications of that material.

Took me three hours to write this. I hope that you appreciate it. Z80Spectrum (talk) 21:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• Boomerang, whether that's a WP:CIR block, or a topic ban to prevent future disruption. This should have been dropped months ago, but instead Z80Spectrum has chosen to drag it out. WP:FORUM is definitely a bit vague, but this is not a good choice of edits to pick a fight over. What's more concerning is Z80Spectrum's insistence that this must be resolved to their satisfaction, after leaving it fallow for a month, as well as trying to insist the real problem is the deletion of 26 KiB of talk page material, rather than their dogged insistence on litigating this. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I was not "insisting" on anything. I don't have the power to do so. I was saying that I would very likely consider it unjust if my complaint about the deletion of the 26 KiB of deleted material is disregarded. I don't see any way in which that deletion can be justified, in the sense that I expect the deleted material to be restored.

  User:HandThatFeeds said after leaving it fallow for a month ... Wikipedia is not my full-time job. As I red in one of the essays, time passes slowly here, and breaks in disputes are usually welcome. It can be easily verified that all the last comments (before I took a break in this dispute) are mine, and that it was other editors who all went silent before I took a break. I can't reply to their silence. Z80Spectrum (talk) 22:18, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Z80Spectrum, I mean this with all due respect and in all good faith, but for your own good, walk away. Deciding to go to battle with Robert McClenon, who is basically Wikipedia's aptheosis of equanimity, is not going to find you favor. We know how you judge your situation, but please take into account that others may judge it differently. All the best. Dumuzid (talk) 22:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for your reply, which I judge was in very good faith. Unfortunately, I habitually don't respond affirmatively to any arguments from authority. All arguments with me have to be properly justified, in a properly conducted and fair discussion. If that is unacceptable on Wikipedia, feel free to ban me. So yes, I'm going to argue against the respected User:Robert McClenon, until the arguments show that I'm in the wrong, or until I'm banned. Z80Spectrum (talk) 23:08, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  To be clear, I am not saying you must agree with anything Robert says. I am merely saying there is a vast swath of territory between 'disagreement' and 'picking a fight.' Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 15:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  I didn't pick a fight with him, he picked a fight with me. I didn't invite him here. I said nothing about him before he did it here first, and I only replied to his comments. I'm also giving a peaceful offer, which is the same one from the very start of this case: to forget it all, if the deleted material is restored and archieved. Perhaps I forgot to say that I will likely write about this incident on my user page, but I can try to avoid mentioning names there. Z80Spectrum (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'm also giving a peaceful offer[...]: to forget it all, if the deleted material is restored and archieved.

  It's either your way or total war?!?? Paradoctor (talk) 18:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not my full-time job.

  No one is saying it should be. But, after a month, the discussion is dead and over. Dragging it back out over and over to get your way is just tendentious. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• @Z80Spectrum: in reviewing past interactions I was reminded of this (quite specious) interaction regarding copyright. When people are talking about WP:CIR in this context, "competence" is regarding your ability to collaborate on a project that is defined by its collaboration. It seems to me that you have battled or argued with nearly everyone you've interacted with; is that a habit you are able to change? VQuakr (talk) 00:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  A fair question. Primarily, Wikipedia is a system. More precisely, Wikipedia is a complex system consisting of a community of people, principles, policies and guidelines, server-side software and data.

  All complex systems have faults of significant importance, and no human-made system ever has worked without failures. I am a newbie user here. I have to defend myself from all the consequences of the Wikipedia-as-a-system, including its many faults.

  In the case you have mentioned, if the copyright information of the problematic image was invalid, then I would have been legally liable to persecution. I consider such circumstances as a physical attack on me, as a consequence of one of Wikipedia's failures. I considered it as a grave and important situation.

  Wikipedia can't claim infallibility. I can't just rely on opinions of a few editors, or on information displayed by Wikipedia. Thus I demanded an opinion of an expert. I had every right to defend myself, in my opinion. When I got a good-enough explanation, I accepted it. If I have extensively argued before that moment, it means that I always had some unanswered objections.

  The problem would not have existed if the disputed image was hosted on Wikipedia, instead of a third-party website.

  Instead, Wikipedia-as-a-system forced me, under a possibility of a legal threat, to extract the necessary copyright information from Wikipedia in a somewhat aggressive way. No one was seriously harmed, as far as I can tell.

  You are correct in stating that I have argued with many people on Wikipedia. The problem is that I joined Wikipedia with a dispute-at-hand. It was not just an ordinary dispute, but a dispute where conflicting interpretations already existed before I joined Wikipedia. That is not my fault.

  I would honestly suggest to Wikipedia-as-a-system to try to fix its own faults first, and to not shift blame on the users, and especially not on newbie users. Unfortunately, complex systems are similar to persons, and they don't like to be criticized, so they usually don't listen to criticisms. I would also suggest to Wikipedia-as-a-system to be more tolerant of newbies, to not try to immediately intimidate them with WP:LAWYER. When reading many pages and essays here, I came under the impression that this criticism is already well-know, and that the real problem is in Wikipedia's reluctance to improve itself. Z80Spectrum (talk) 03:05, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  My thoughts:

  - There are many ways you could improve Wikipedia that don't involve trying to restore that talk page - ways which it seems to me that a lot of others in this discussion would rather be doing instead of discussing this even more. Maybe seems unfair, but it appears that that is the current state of things.

  - If you want to improve the article and discuss it in the talk page, you can still do that, if you want to look at the deleted talk page content to find ways to improve the article, you can also still do that (by looking at the talk page from before it was removed).

  - Are you right? Are you wrong? Those questions should matter a lot less than questions like "How can we move on? What can we still improve? How can we discuss it in a way that won't result in someone interpreting it as violating WP:TALK?".

  The big thing here, is that this does not appear to be an issue of great significance, and the more time that is taken to either try to resolve the dispute or discuss things here in ANI (honestly, the more time that it takes to read big walls of text too) the less people are going to want to do that, because it's a lot of time for little gain.

  
  

  I don't agree with people saying that you should be sanctioned for making this ANI thread and for having dug this topic after people had moved on, because you made this thread as a way to continue the dispute (which seems to have been left as a possibility in the conclusion of the the DRN discussion) and because of what your intentions appear to have been when making it, but I think that you should withdraw this ANI thread and move on from and forget this dispute before people actually do get you blocked for it.

  The value you bring to Wikipedia is directly weighed against the time that is taken away from other editors without that time being used to improve or protect the Wikipedia.

  – 2804:F14:809E:DF01:55E8:CB99:DC7E:615D (talk) 03:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  And just to be clear, since I'm unsure how aware of how things work you are, withdrawing means saying that you do, that's all. – 2804:F1...7E:615D (talk) 04:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  If I understand it right, you are suggesting a compromise in which I withdraw, and I also suffer no consequences. I decline such a compromise (which was provided in good faith) due to the following:

  Objection 1. Such a compromise implies that I consent to devaluing most of my work on Wikipedia so far, in return for some kind of "safety". I would turn out to be a complete coward, which I am not.

  Objection 2. Such a compromise is not in accordance with my stated principles of justified and fair discussions. I would much rather see and suffer the consequences of the outcome which is at this moment uncertain, than to retreat without being given proper justifications.

  Objection 3. I think that I'm fighting for the right cause. The outcome of this ANI case would likely serve as a precedent that clarifies the ambiguities of WP:TPO, which was one of my goals. One of the worst outcomes from my point of view would be the perpetuation of the status quo, in which WP:TPG remains ambiguous. Z80Spectrum (talk) 06:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  The outcome of this ANI case would likely serve as a precedent that clarifies the ambiguities of WP:TPO, which was one of my goals.

  You are vastly overestimating the importance of this discussion. You're also fighting the wrong battle. If you want sanctions, I expect you're going to get them now. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:57, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  This isn't a battle to be won and lost based on courage or cowardice. VQuakr (talk) 00:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Yet Another Reply to User:Z80Spectrum

You seem to be arguing with yourself, and one of the risks of arguing with oneself is that one may lose the argument. On the one hand, you agree that the guideline on editing the talk page posts of other editors is poorly written and ambiguous. On the other hand, you say that you have reopened this WP:ANI thread because the removal of your 26K post is a conduct issue on the part of User:Chaheel Reins. If the guideline is poorly written, it is unfair to argue that there was a conduct violation, but maybe you are arguing both ways.

You have now decided that I was never neutral. You probably won't believe me, but I started out thinking that your 26K posts should be restored, because I thought and still think that deletion of talk page posts should only be done rarely. I disagreed with User:Chaheel Reins, and thought that they were overreacting when they deleted your 26K post. I still think that, other things being equal, your 26K should be restored either to an article talk page archive, to your user talk page, or to a user talk page archive. I was inclined in that direction until you went to the talk page of User:Ritchie333. It appeared to me that you are asking for his help with regard to the dispute about the talk page post. I now see that you were asking for his help with regard to a copyright dispute. I still don't know what the copyright dispute was, and I am not sure whether I want to know.

You say, in Pt 3, that I misunderstood what you were saying, about scammers and liars. That is probably true, but you said that you had evidence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARitchie333&diff=1197436589&oldid=1197435165

You said that you had evidence. Now you say that is only my interpretation.

You write:

I didn't pick a fight with him, he picked a fight with me. I didn't invite him here. I said nothing about him before he did it here first, and I only replied to his comments.

If you mean me, I didn't pick a fight with you. You say that you didn't invite me here. By "here", do you mean WP:ANI? It is true that you didn't ping me, but I was always here. Unlike you, I didn't take a two-week or four-week break from Wikipedia. You wrote: I'm not "reopening" this dispute, as the dispute was never closed. So did you think that I would have forgotten about it?

I didn't pick a fight.

Thank you, User:Dumuzid, for your positive comment.

Starting Over ?

Now, at this point, here are the issues that I think remain:

• 1. User:Z80Spectrum wants their 26K of deleted posts back. That material has not been revision-deleted. Z80Spectrum can copy it to a user subpage in user space. If they want it in article talk space, they can resume the discussion of the talk page guidelines, but at least they will have it. A user has more control over their own user space than over article talk space. If anyone else thinks that the material is inappropriate for user space, they can nominate the material for MFD. Userfication should be a satisfactory compromise that doesn't require a community decision.
• 2. Z80Spectrum did say that they have evidence. That was not a hypothetical statement, but an allegation against someone. They should either present the evidence, or say that they were just talking wildly.
• 3. Is there anything else?

Robert McClenon (talk) 03:14, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Z80Spectrum said they want the deleted material [...] restored and archived, or else. "Material" being his WP:OR. No thanks. Paradoctor (talk) 04:00, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Nkienzle

I reverted six edits by Nkienzle (talk · contribs) that are a continuation of seven edits reverted prior to an AP TBan. WP:NOTHERE. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Good catch. Those are very clear and unequivocal violations of their topic ban. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:12, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Bishonen: as the TBan issuer. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:18, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm baffled. All their six edits since they were banned from post-1992 American politics violate the topic ban, and are indeed a lot like the edits they were tbanned for in the first place. Blocked for two weeks. Thanks, O3000. Bishonen | tålk 17:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC).

After Nkienzle's response to my block notice, I've changed the block to indefinite per WP:NOTHERE. Bishonen | tålk 22:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC).

User:Fred Zepelin

I am asking for User:Fred Zepelin to be indefinitely blocked from posting to my personal talk page, and for an administrator to consider appropriate action in response to his hounding and ongoing personal attacks.

During a recent content dispute, he accused me of “whitewashing” and being a “white supremacist apologist”.[152] The two other editors involved in the discussion suggested he “focus on content, not contributors” and “clear the slate with a strike and or apology”.[153]

Instead, he followed me to another article where his first-ever edit there was to revert my content and source[154] and template-warned me inappropriately.[155]

I have asked him repeatedly to stop posting on my talk page[156], citing WP:USERTALKSTOP[157] and telling him that I would view future violations as harassment. [158] But days later he again posted there again, and with another personal attack.[159] BBQboffin (talk) 17:09, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Which they immediately reverted and apologized for (and was in regards to what was not a PA at all). What are you asking us to do if the other user already self-resolved it? Nate • (chatter) 17:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Immediately reverted - yes. Apologized for casting aspersions about alleged "whitewashing" - no. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

So what is being asked for, then? The editor immediately reverted so there's nothing to revert, though it looks like the two have had a running content dispute for the last month but not to a block-worthy extent. I just can't stand when the reporter leaves out something on purpose (the reversion) to try to have an action done, without the other in the dispute being able to respond. Nate • (chatter) 20:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

"I forgot" is neither an excuse for harassment nor is it an apology. Posting "Knock off the whitewashing" and then reverting is like someone throwing a punch and pulling it back at the last minute. It doesn't "self-resolve" a situation; it has an intimidating effect. And this isn't the first time FZ has done this: he had been warned about respecting WP:USERTALKSTOP with another editor[160], ignored the warning, and got himself a 48-hour block[161]. What I want is for him to just stop posting to my talk page: if he can't be banned from posting there permanently, maybe a 72-hour block would help him remember next time that harassment (of me or anyone else) is not OK. BBQboffin^{grill me} 21:46, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The edit summary on their self-revert, "forgot, this particular user asked that I not post on thier talk page," gives me faith they'll stop posting there. Do you agree but still think they need to be blocked, or do you think if they're not blocked they'll continue messaging you there? City of Silver 22:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I can’t know if he's going to forget again. A talk page block would make it 100% certain. BBQboffin^{grill me} 20:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry but that wasn't what I asked. And they're not going to be blocked from your talk page because it's possible they'll have messages they're required by policy to leave for you. City of Silver 02:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

In lieu of a talk page block I would accept a promise from FZ not to post on my talk page anything beyond required-by-policy messages. BBQboffin^{grill me} 04:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:COMPETENCE of LeoPlaysRBLX (talk · contribs)

I am concerned about WP:COMPETENCE issues with LeoPlaysRBLX (talk · contribs). To wit:

• This edit to Stratford Square Mall has the very informal text Redevelopment will probably take place years later, the Village of Bloomingdale announced that they don't have redevelopment plans for the mall yet. added.
• This edit to Charlestowne Mall includes informal and poorly written text such as Marshalls didn't last long and they moved to the current Randall Commons location in Geneva, IL a year or two after the mall opened and the space was turned into the mall main entrance and added more tenant spaces.
• When I removed the info, they posted this, calling my removal a "mistake" and citing a Facebook post as proof.
• Addition of anchor store lists to Water Tower Place, a long since discredited practice in mall articles
• Same thing at Hawthorne Plaza Shopping Center
• Unsourced recentism added to Bartlett High School (Illinois)
• Unsourced biographical content and disambiguation links added to Death of Elisa Lam
• A very poorly written draft with poor passages such as Bloomingdale needed extra shopping destinations in the village to prevent overflow and This format will be smaller than the conventional Macy's department stores you find in major regional shopping centers.

While the user does have a couple not-terribly written drafts that either got accepted as articles or could be with a little more polish, edits like this show a fundamental misunderstanding of reliable sources, tone, appropriate article content, and overall editor competence. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 17:46, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

User:Галай Артём

Галай Артём (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

New user 2 months old, with ~141 edits, but has created a significant number of poorly sourced articles that have either been deleted[162] or drafted[163]. There talk page is filled with draft and delete notices. None of the articles I checked still in mainspace is properly sourced.

Several editors and reviewers have commented on this on the users talk page (eg: @Ben Azura, Significa liberdade, Ad Orientem, and Relativity:). No replies given, see User talk:Галай Артём#Poorly sourced articles with questionable notability, User talk:Галай Артём#Edit summaries + article quality, User talk:Галай Артём#Issue with large number of drafted articles, User talk:Галай Артём#January 2024, User talk:Галай Артём#Article creation. There is also no indication this user intends to return to improve any of the drafted articles.

There are also other issues with this editor, see User talk:Галай Артём#Edit summaries + article quality, User talk:Галай Артём#January 2024, User talk:Галай Артём#Speedy deletion nomination of Battle of Watling Street (61 CE)

This editor does not seem willing to discuss and improve their contributions, at this point they are just creating draft spam and work for other editors. I think they've had enough time to respond, now a block is needed until this editor shows a willingness to discuss these problems and improve.  // Timothy :: talk  18:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand the purpose of their nonsensical edit summaries either ("ygtuhkjuikojui7jym", "77iuiuiuiuioioi9", "шгнргогршлол"). Their talk page is filled with questions, comments, tips, warnings, and they've never responded. At a minimum, they should be blocked from mainspace until they begin engaging with other editors. Schazjmd (talk) 18:58, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen this user around, especially while monitoring the new pages feed. One of their articles was Draft:1734 Haidamak Uprising, which was previously in mainspace. One of their still live articles, Battle of Zhmerynka, cites Wikipedia two times. Another one was nominated for deletion. Then, the first version of one of their articles (permalink to their version) seems to be an exact copy of the Polish article. There are also some articles (examples: 1 2 3) that have questionable readability. And echoing Schazjmd's concern about edit summaries, here's a few examples of nonsensical edit summaries: [164] [165] [166]. In my opinion, this is a WP:CIR problem. ‍ Relativity 20:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The lack of communication and the mass creation of non-viable articles are certainly concerning. To try to push the user to communicate, I have blocked them, with a hopefully helpful note in the block log. (I tried to block from article space only, but couldn't get it to work. The practical difference is nil, though, as they can edit their own talkpage with both kinds of block.) Bishonen | tålk 22:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC).

• Comment: Looking at the page creations, I think I see a similarity between this editor Page creations link and User:SebbeKg Page creations link. I could be wrong, does anyone else see a similarity?  // Timothy :: talk  05:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Suspicious behavior of Prinokta

The user has only registered an account a month ago, but demonstrates knowledge untypical of a newcomer. Right after their tenth edit, they draftified two articles and AfD-ed another two.

What is interesting is that the authors of three of the articles have been blocked for sockpuppetry, two of the being linked to Elizabethhope89.

This may be an instance of sockpuppetry by an unknown editor, but I am not sure. I am posting this here, because I don't know of a more suitable place. Janhrach (talk) 21:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

In my experience, this isn't uncommon. I've seen new editors whose first edit is to nominate an article for an AFD discussion. It could be socking, it could be a long-time IP editor who just registered an account to nominate the article for an AFD, it could be a clean start account or someone lost their password and had to register a new one. User:Elizabethhope89 is a sockpuppet of longtime sockmaster User:Bodiadub so you could file an SPI case. Or you could just keep an eye on the editor (without stalking them, of course). Maybe another editor will have ideas but what seems suspicious may not be at all. Prinokta hasn't edited for over a week but if they return, maybe they can offer an explanation. They only edited for one day, March 9th, so they may not return. But right now, it's just suspicions and not an urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems so I don't think admin attention is called for unless you want to file an SPI (along with diffs). Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:24, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Liz. There is no need for anyone to do anything unless this editor starts being disruptive. Often the first time that anyone needs to register is to create the page for a deletion discussion - they could have been editing unregistered for 20 years. I know that my first edit was to a deletion discussion after I took exception to being canvassed on another site (the canvasser probably wasn't happy with the way I responded). Maybe this person found out about the sockpuppetry and took exception to that? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@Liz and Phil Bridger: Thank you. I would like to ask that if I see a possible sockpuppet without knowing who their master may be, where should I report them?

I have a second question. I have viewed the edit history of the two editors who haven't been invistigated at SPI for being Bodiadub's socks. Both engaged in creation of promotional articles, and one of them, NamanNomad, has been accused by an IP of being a Bodiadub sockpuppet, but the claim was dismissed by more experienced editors. The actions of Prinokta could be interpreted as alleging that these two editors are sockpuppets of Bodiadub. Shall I submit a request to SPI (so that users familiar with Bodiadub could judge them), or is it sure that it will be declined? Thank you. Janhrach (talk) 06:23, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Uncivil and biased behaviour by user Orange sticker

I would like to flag this user for potentially uncivil and biased editing. This user has flagged the Liverpolitan page as a candidate for deletion. See diff [167]

The user has cast an aspersion that I am affiliated to the Liverpolitan magazine and am trying to push their brand which is not true: [168]

The user has also deleted reliable sources from the article and replaced them with the 'citation needed label: [169]

The user has then accused me of not citing the article. See diff: [170]

The user has stated the subjective opinion that the concept of Liverpolitan does not even exist, see: [171]

despite the article being well referenced and pointing to numerous references in news, newspapers, books, scholar and JSTOR. (see https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22liverpolitan%22&so=rel)

I have since discovered that this user uses an X account and they have now resorted to targeting my account with accusations that I am a 'snob' for using the Liverpolitan term and am promoting stigma against the city of Liverpool. They have made personal comments about my username there because it has the word gay in it. They have made the comment "can't believe I'm arguing with someone who has 'Gay' right in their username about why it's important to take words with negative connotations and proudly own them". I can provide screenshots of their comments towards me on 'X' and a link to their X username. They have admitted on X that they are the same user as that here on Wikipedia.

They have also made the further comment on X to me "No I haven't? How would you like it if someone went and changed every use of the word "gay" to some lost Victorian epithet because they unilaterally decided it needed its profile raising and this was the way to do it? Because I'm sure there are articles aplenty on JSTOR!"

Please see the ongoing debates about the article here... Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Liverpolitan identity and here Talk:Liverpolitan.

But I feel that this user has overstepped being civil and has taken this matter too personally and is making biased comments that are not supported by the sources. My contribution to Wikipedia has absolutely nothing to do with my sexuality nor does it have anything to do with me erasing any other Liverpool identity. The article supports historical fact.

Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 23:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I have also made amendments which I feel are reasonable to the article. Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 23:29, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I checked Orange Sticker's edits to the article and they did not remove any sources, only added "citation needed" tags; you might want to strike your accusation of "deleted reliable sources from the article". Schazjmd (talk) 23:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I added the following source which perfectly cites the text. The source is as follows:

Crowley, Tony (January 2012). Scouse: A Social and Cultural History. Liverpool University Press.

The user is continuing to harrass me on Twitter with repeated messages of 'let it go'. This is completely out of order and is taking matter to my social media account bringing my sexuality in to it.

Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 23:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

You can block accounts on X. Schazjmd (talk) 23:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

It is true to say that there are Liverpool people who would like to replace "Scouser" as they believe it has negative connotations. I can assure you that I am not one of them. Your comments to me on X are completely without foundation. You have made personal comments to me calling me a 'snob' on there which is visible for the world to see. And if this is even a real world debate, unpopular or not, it is not for you or I to erase that from public record. And nor is there an agenda for me to do that. You have already made several completely untrue statements about me.

That debate has been covered in the local press...https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/nostalgia/city-michael-starke--dont-3403823

We cannot erase that because it suits our personal feelings.

Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 23:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I didn't delete any references, only added 'cn' to unreferenced statements. If any references were removed in that edit it was by mistake and I apologise.

My point is that while there are numerous references to articles which contain the term "Liverpolitan", they do not support the author's argument, in fact many of them contradict it as they are articles which explain the term is antiquated and unpopular. On X, I showed this user the Google Ngram comparing "Scouser","Liverpudlian" and "Liverpolitan" which shows negligible occurrences of the latter.

As a born and bred Scouser I can be sure this word is not in common use, though, as some of the references show, there are some who would like to see the word replace "Scouser" as they believe it has negative connotations.

I can see a lot of research has gone into this article and it is very well written, it is just a shame it is about a concept which is not notable and which is not supported by the very same research. Orange sticker (talk) 23:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I can assure you Orange I absolutely love Liverpool. Not that that should matter. All sides of the public discourse should be covered and represented on Wikipedia. It is my duty as a responsible editor to reflect that. You have already said that the article is well researched, well written and well sourced. I have taken pains to compare the more well known Scouse identity to the much older Liverpolitan demonym. I feel that this is completely fair. Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 00:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Only the notable elements of a debate are worthy of an article, though. This topic is insignificant and should be merged (back) into a parent article. Orange sticker (talk) 00:22, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The article is now far too large for it to be merged. There are sections for:

Etymology

Origins

19th century

20th century

21st century

Liverpool city region identity

Other demonyms

Comparisons with other demonyms

In popular culture

Quotes

You have also disrespected the process in which you have invoked by moving text back to the Liverpool City Region artcile without allowing a discussion to take place. Since it was you that started the debate in the first place, that is premature. In any case, you have also refused to believe that Liverpolitan even exists. This is a step too far since the term is steeped in historical significance and should be included. You have also made it abundantly clear on X that you are against this identity as you personally prefer Scouser as a term. This is not the way to conduct a fair discussion. Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 00:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

No, I have never stated the word does not exist, as shown in the Ngram I posted on X I am simply arguing it is too obscure and unfounded to warrant its own Wikipedia entry, it is a fringe theory.

I believe a sentence on the Scouse page along the lines of "The word 'Liverpolitan' has sometimes been used to refer to someone or something from the region" would be more than enough. Orange sticker (talk) 00:43, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

You literally did say the concept does not exist.

[172]

Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 00:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The concept of a "Liverpolitan identity", the title of the article at the time. Orange sticker (talk) 00:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The title of the article has been changed to reflect your comment. As well as the lede which is exactly what you asked for. I hope you now appreciate that. Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 00:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

It even has a page description at the very top:

"This article is about the history and contemporary interpretation of the Liverpolitan identity. For the accent and dialect of Liverpool, see Scouse." This was also assisted by another helpful editor.

I feel that is completely fair. Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 00:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

And what the heck is this Lobscouse? I've never even heard of... Ah, Lapskojs! I did not get that. Carry on. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

This is a content dispute that has gotten personal, unfortunately. You won't win over editors when you move a discussion that should be on the AFD over to ANI. And Wikipedia has no jurisdiction over messages on Twitter. Use the resources of that platform to block a user if you find their content offensive. There is no rule saying you have to continue a discussion that you are finding unpleasant. The diffs I looked at just demonstrate a difference of opinion which happens to all of us nearly every day on Wikipedia. This is a collaborative editing project, disputes happen frequently. I can see you are not happy that the article was nominated for deletion but the AFD is the place to make your best argument on why the article should not be deleted. I don't see anything here that requires administrator intervention and Orange sticker has already issued an apology. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. My main concern is the editor's political motivation to undermine this articke. There is no rationale behind it. She has already made it clear on X that she prsonally hates the subject matter. This is not a good enough reason to undermine another editor's work. I would not dream of doing that. As regards notability, there are articles about languages and tribes that most of the world has never heard of. Shall we go round deleting them all off Wikipedia? The editor above has taken this far too personally and that's what I wanted to flag up. Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 09:22, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Suggest both parties review WP:AGF, stop feuding on Twitter and reserve article content discissions on the relevant talk pages. Simonm223 (talk) 14:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• @Liverpolitan1980: I suggest that, to make it clear that you are acting in good faith, and that you are willing to continue in a collaborative and civil spirit, you may like to either substantiate or withdraw your accusation of "political motivation". Leaving such an accusation without giving any explanation or justification is likely to be seen as a personal attack, and as an indication of a combative, rather than collaborative, approach to disagreements, which naturally I hope is not what you intend. I also suggest that you acknowledge your mistake in saying that Orange Sticker had removed sources from an article when, as has been pointed out, that was not in fact the case. We all make mistakes, and it helps if we acknowledge them when we become aware of them. JBW (talk) 15:57, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I can assure you I am acting in good faith. I have a good idea of this user's political motivation based off social media otherwise I wouldn't have said it. If admins don't wish to take action then that is entirely up to them. I am still willing to collaborate on the article of course.Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 16:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  You were just told to stop accusing the editor of having a "political motivation." Doubling down is a very bad idea. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  No, I was asked to substantiate or withdraw. This user has still not apologised for associating me to the Liverpolitan magazine. It is a very bad idea not to debunk that in an open forum when its not true. Good faith works both ways. Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 16:57, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Ok let's just be clear that this is possibly the worst place on the internet to air Twitter beef. Suggest you reconsider this course of action. Simonm223 (talk) 17:08, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Could you politely ask her to withdraw her accusation that i am pushing the Liverpolitan magazine brand which he has written on here, not Twitter. This is damaging to my reputation. Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 17:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Mistake acknowledged. She didn't remove citations. She did, however, insert "citation needed" when a citation was provided. This unfairly discredits the contribution. I acknowledge her apology, however, both need to assume good faith. Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 17:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  My bad. I have just found an explanation that she has withdrawn the assumption. I am happy to move on and close this discussion if the admins wish. Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 17:22, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  No, I was asked to substantiate or withdraw.

  And you have done neither, which is likely to result in sanctions if you continue. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 22:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  I am not sure exactly why you feel this discussion needs any more oxygen. I have already said I am happy to withdraw from it.Liverpolitan1980 (talk) 22:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Discriminatory behavior from Mechabot5 at Talk:Sweet Baby Inc.

Mechabit5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

"If you are a member of the LGBT community, please recuse yourself from the article."

Someone please explain to the user why these kind of comments are inappropriate Trade (talk) 00:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The worst offender about this is the fact that they have the word "bot" in their name and haven't gotten blocked from a username violation. NoobThreePointOh (talk) 00:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

WHEN YOU POST
TO AN/I
DON'T FORGET
TO NOTIFY
Burma-shave

GrayStorm^{(Talk|Contributions)} 00:22, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Exactly this. I have notified Mechabot5 about this thread. Woodroar (talk) 00:22, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

You beat me to it! Thanks. GrayStorm^{(Talk|Contributions)} 00:24, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I've soft-blocked them for the username, and warned them for their demand presented here. The username block does not preclude other measures, I await a response from them to my warning and this discussion before further action. Acroterion (talk) 00:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Mechabot5 - "A user with 14 edits. Account created on March 21, 2024." The above comment and this comment are unacceptable in a contentious topics area. Not a great start for a new editor, who oddly seems to be quite familiar with WP terminology. I support an indef block of this editor as WP:NOTHERE. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

"a new editor, who oddly seems to be quite familiar with WP terminology." Are you suggesting that a checkuser is justified?--Trade (talk) 00:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I actually think that this user might be a sockpuppet. Considering a couple of weeks ago on NinjaRobotPirate's talk page (or Ponyo's), several IPs tried to get them to unprotect the pages. So maybe yes, CU might be needed. NoobThreePointOh (talk) 01:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm suggesting the behavioral evidence indicates they are not a new user. Regardless of whether they are a sock or someone evading a block, etc. their comments about LGBT editors are toxic and unacceptable and they should be shown the door. If an administrator believes a CU is warranted, I'm not opposed to that. Isaidnoway (talk) 01:31, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Mechabot5/Mechabit5 is not the first new editor in recent days to tell me directly and multiple editors indirectly to stop editing that article and talk page because of who they are.

The sock situation is difficult to ascertain though, because there were multiple attempts to recruit editors with a specific POV to that article and talk page last week on social media, when the frenzy against Sweet Baby Inc. was at it's highest. It's hard in this sort of situation to differentiate between socks and meatpuppets, but I do have a suspicion that this specific editor might be a sock. Too tired right now to figure out who, though there's one or two I have a suspicion about. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Listing IPs for clarity

• 2003:D8:8F3C:E000:D08:F9:2CCA:F920 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 157.131.103.182 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Did i missed any?--Trade (talk) 01:06, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm... maybe? NoobThreePointOh (talk) 01:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I dont see anything about Sweet Baby on User talk:Ponyo so i'm not sure which IPs you were referring to Trade (talk) 01:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, most likely it was on NRP's talk page. It's been a while though, so the incident has gradually faded from my mind. NoobThreePointOh (talk) 01:20, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I also suspect this is not a new user. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 02:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

For the record, regardless of the outcome of the pending response to Acroterion's warning, I support placing at a minimum a topic ban restriction on Mechabot5 under the WP:GENSEX standard set of restrictions. They're clearly not capable of editing competently in this topic area, regardless of whether they're a sockpuppet or not. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 02:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Their response isn't encouraging. Acroterion (talk) 02:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe this would be a good time to ask him now that he is waiting on his talk page (assuming the unblock ever happens) Trade (talk) 02:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• I know that this my opinion will not be received well but this editor has not even been active for 24 hours. Can we see how they respond to the messages they've been given before laying down indefinite blocks and topic bans? I know some well-respected editors here who had rocky introductions to Wikipedia. If they are used to message boards, where anything goes, the restrictions of Wikipedia might be a surprise to them. I believe in giving a little ROPE before bringing down the ban hammer. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

That's why I'd support a topic ban -- if this is an introduction to Wikipedia (and I suspect it's not), then a user page that touts their single-purpose desire to right great wrongs on contentious topics indicates they're going to continue to have a rocky trajectory here without being redirected away from those areas. If they're truly a well-meaning new user, they'd be best served spending their time in other areas of the project. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 04:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Mechabit5 has made it clear that they don't consider telling people not to edit based on their sexual orientation discriminatory. Which means they are incompetent or pushing an agenda or both. If they are merely incompetent, they can read the lead of discrimination, then declare that they were wrong. Failing that, we don't want them to edit Wikipedia, seeing as they have stated clearly that they are here "to enforce standards and conduct across articles that suffer from radical politicization". Their own standards, not Wikipedia's. Paradoctor (talk) 04:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I mean, I am fine considering homosexuality as an intolerable conflict of interest, but then logic would dictate that heterosexuality would be an equal and opposite conflict of interest. Perhaps Wikipedia should only be edited by bisexuals and other people with non-binary orientations? Dumuzid (talk) 04:31, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I guess what I was going for is that I'd like to hear more from the editor in response to the talk page messages they've received. Right now, they are blocked because of their username, they proposed a new username and it would be nice if they could get that changed, get unblocked and then come and participate in this discussion. I realize that this is just me but I like to not just talk ABOUT another editor but hear, FROM them, where they are coming from. We are taking a couple of statements they made and taking them them to the Nth degree. I'm sure we have all said careless, stupid things in our lives as editors that we wouldn't want our whole reputation to hang on. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

When a supposedly new editor jumps right into a CT area first thing and implies that LGBT editors shouldn't edit in that area, well, because, they are simply LGBT, is unacceptable. We face enough discrimination in real life, we shouldn't have to face it on Wikipedia. They were given a "Introduction to contentious topics" notice yesterday at 2:19 pm (in my time zone), and then went on to make those remarks anyway. According to their user page, their primary purpose on Wikipedia is to enforce standards and conduct across articles that suffer from radical politicization on both sides of the aisle. Wikipedia has their own set of standards and conduct, and after being informed via the CT notice what kind of behavior is expected of them to edit in that area, they ignored it, and made those inflammatory comments anyway. Like you, I realize that this is just me speaking, but as a member of the LGBT community, I don't appreciate being told I am incapable of editing in that area, simply because I am gay. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:22, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

If the user in question here isn't an example of WP:NOTHERE, then I don't know what is. That's bigotry, period full stop. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

This is definitely not acceptable. It seems, however, they claim to be a member of the LGBT community on their talk page (?)... Their userpage indicates that they may want to involve some politics, which is not what Wikipedia is for. That said, the minimum topic ban must be in place, and I would be ok with an unblock, for them to speak at this ANI, per Liz. If anything else comes up it's an insta-block. TLA^tlak 13:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

they claim to be a member of the LGBT community on their talk page

They are talking about Trade, not themself. Paradoctor (talk) 17:02, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

As a bisexual, nonbinary person, it's my time to shine! — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Reminds me of Melvin Hudson. Hm. Polygnotus (talk) 14:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

What was the cause for the rift with Hudson? Talk page isn't clear why he was edit warring Trade (talk) 15:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Hudson was reverting good faith IPs, when an IP asked for advice at the teahouse he edit warred with the IP to remove it, also edit warring the ANEW report, when reverting he was baselessly accusing users of being transpobes. Lavalizard101 (talk) 16:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Some people on the internet seem to think that it is a good idea to pretend to be an extremely unreasonable LGBTQ+ person which in their view, somehow, owns the libs (don't do drugs kids). They think that claiming to be LGBTQ+ gives them immunity against any and all accusations. In reality, LGBTQ+ users of Wikipedia follow the same rules as everyone else. Polygnotus (talk) 16:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

See also Gays Against Groomers, a blatant astroturfing group which claims to be LGB individuals against transgender rights. And LGB Alliance, with a similar pedigree. Both of those articles keep attracting similar accounts, claiming to be LGB while pushing blatantly homophobic & transphobic content edits. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Concur. This person appears a key example of WP:NOTHERE. Simonm223 (talk) 17:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

LGBTQ+ people want the same treatment as everyone else. Anyone using that label to shield themselves from accusations of bigotry is NOTHERE. I think they think that, because their worldview can be destroyed by the discovery of one cool LGBTQ+ person, our worldview is similarly shaky. But the existence of one single stupid LGBTQ+ person is not going to convince me to hate a huge group of people. The libs aren't owned; they are bored. Polygnotus (talk) 17:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Awful sudden case of ANI flu that Mechabit appears to have been stricken with. I'm sure their explanation as to why they felt that overtly discriminatory bullying was acceptable behavior is forthcoming as soon as they recover. For their sake, I hope that happens quickly as my perspective on whether a topic ban is sufficient is shifting. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 01:33, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

(To avoid the inevitable clarification, yes I know they're still username blocked and can't reply here. User Talk page flu is just as bad.) ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 01:35, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

It's been 24 hours. If they haven't responded by tomorrow, I'm going to convert it to a full NOTHERE block. Acroterion (talk) 02:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Repeated personal attacks and aspersion

I was trying to follow the dispute resolution steps in this discussion but I was responded by personal attacks from MaskedSinger [173] saying things like "Your double standards are atrocious". I politely asked him not to comment on editors but he did not stop. After my caution, he described my comments as "trolling" and when I asked him to remove those personal attacks, so I don't report to admins, he again commented on me, which is a personal attack. He also casted aspersion against me like [174]. Then I went to his talk page [175] with explanations on his personal attacks but I ended up receiving more. I also deem this edit as edit warring given the ongoing discussion on the article page where he is supposed to actively participate.--Mhhossein ^talk 15:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Mhhossein, if MaskedSinger's attacks against you on Talk:Israel at the 2024 Summer Olympics had been recent, I would have considered page-banning MS to put a stop to it. But actually the discussion on the page is several weeks old, and the conflict seems to have died a natural death. Calling it "ongoing" does not make it so. Bishonen | tålk 23:30, 23 March 2024 (UTC).

@Bishonen: Thanks for the response but the latest attack I received on his talk was only last week [176] and, as I stated above, the personal attacks were made after multiple cautions. I am here as the last step outlined in WP:DEALWITHINCIVIL regarding the uncivil behavior by the user. The discussion on the article talk page, where the last comment was made 10 days ago thanks to the PAs making me stop the communication, was just an example. Best. -Mhhossein ^talk 14:50, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Insulting behaviour at the Teahouse

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

According to Danstarr69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), it is appropriate to discuss a fellow editor in the following terms: 'Nikkimaria the Canadian should stick to doing make-up tutorials on Youtube or whatever she does with her "content creation,"'.

Are such misogynistic outbursts acceptable in the 21st century on anyone at all, let alone a fellow editor? - SchroCat (talk) 16:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

According to SchroCat, people who use "infoboxes" are idiots as shown here Talk:George Formby/Archive 1#IB.

Here's the 2022 discussion which shows him and Nikkimaria lost the battle Talk:George Formby/Archive 1#Infobox Danstarr69 (talk) 16:39, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this discussion is about 'infoboxes.' It's about you and your comment that another editor should, "stick to doing make-up tutorials." What possible reason would you have for making a comment like that? --Onorem (talk) 16:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Seeing quotes like "lost the battle" would indicate to anyone this editor mindset isn't conducive to collaboration here on Wikipedia. Let's see if the editor has the capability of recognizing their mistakes and moving forward. Moxy🍁 16:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Onorem She calls herself a content creator."

And SchroCat calls people who use infoboxes "idiots" or are you purposely ignoring that bit?

They both lost their arguments, yet insist on removing the infobox, and claim there's a "consensus" to the contrary. Danstarr69 (talk) 16:48, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Danstarr69, nothing you're saying justifies your comments about Nikkimaria at the Teahouse. Schazjmd (talk) 16:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

And why are you still edit warring (that's your third time now, do I'll drop you a formal note about that one too. WP:NOTHERE is becoming evident. - SchroCat (talk) 16:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

You can't expect us to punish SchroCat in 2024 for what SchroCat said 10 years ago. Right? Polygnotus (talk) 16:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention that SchroCat didn't refer to editors, but to infoboxes: generally lives up to its secondary name, the idiotbox. Schazjmd (talk) 16:48, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

SchroCat why do you and your mates on here, refuse to acknowledge to 2022 consensus? Danstarr69 (talk) 16:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Can I suggest you read DMacks's comment (below) before you try to obfuscate again? - SchroCat (talk) 16:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Danstarr69, tu quoque is not helping you here. While others may or not be following consensus, we're here at least to examine whether your behavior fits our norms in ways well beyond a simple content/consensus dispute. I agree it does not. The fact that you are continuing to see neither problems with your own previous responses nor changing how you are pursuing this discussion here has my finger about to land on the block button for you. DMacks (talk) 16:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Is being a Canadian a bad thing? 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 16:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Cremastra I think people should stick to editing topics they know about. For example, Canadians should stick to editing Canadian topics, and Brits should focus on British topics, unless they know a lot about a subject from elsewhere.

It's partly why I gave up on Quora years ago before the website declined, as around 10 of the most active people on British topics were Americans refused to be corrected.

Wikipedia is almost as bad as Quora, which is why I'm rarely on here, as Americans also refuse to be corrected on British topics, and insist on using Americanisms.

And that's mainly why I spend 99% of my time correcting IMDB, as a Top 100 (occasionally Top 50) contributor. Danstarr69 (talk) 17:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I think people should stick to editing topics they know about. For example, Canadians should stick to editing Canadian topics, and Brits should focus on British topics, unless they know a lot about a subject from elsewhere. I'm very sorry, but that's clearly absurd. What a weird kind of isolationist pseudo-nationalism. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 17:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd say this kind of nationalistic rhetoric should result in a WP:NOTHERE block. Especially since the user is "rarely on here" anyway. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:06, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Not the first time that they've done this, check out Talk:E. D. Berman § Requested move 31 December 2023 – Hilst [talk] 17:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

If we followed this, no-one would be allowed to write about anything outside the English-speaking world. I've heard of anti-globalism, but never to this living-inside-our-own-bubbles degree. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 17:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Wait a sec. I'm a Canadian & I think I should be allowed to edit/discuss bios of non-Canadians. GoodDay (talk) 17:14, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

In point of fact, you may have a COI with Canadian topics... Mackensen (talk) 17:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm probably considered involved because I'm on the "pro" side of the Infobox debate and have been for years, but otherwise I'd issue Danstarr69 a long block for their comments. Misogynistic and nationalistic comments such as those have no place on Wikipedia. Mackensen (talk) 17:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Blocked – for a period of 48 hours Indefinitely: User talk:Danstarr69#Block. I'm likely to not be available to follow up on this block, so any admin should feel free to respond to an unblock request as they see fit. I need not be consulted or even contacted about any adjustments to the block, be its increase, decrease, or lifting it outright. El_C 17:20, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Too short a block? Should it have been weeks, months, indef? I'm open to advise on that, though I have a brief window here. El_C 17:27, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

After reading the link Hilst provided above and because Danstarr69 showed no indication in this thread that he saw anything wrong with what he wrote, I'd support an indef, as it's the only block version that requires Danstarr69 to acknowledge that his behavior is unacceptable and agree to change his approach to other editors. Schazjmd (talk) 17:31, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

+1 on that. Misogynistic and narrow-minded nationalistic comments like these should be shown the door. - SchroCat (talk) 17:33, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I was writing a comment suggesting an indef when you blocked. I think an indef is necessary because there was no ambiguity about it being a misogynistic comment. They should not be able to wait out the block, and potentially come back and make more such remarks. Only reason not to indef would be if they had immediately retracted and apologised as a momentary lapse in judgement. If anything, they tried to justify it, one may even say they doubled down. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Agree that this seems short: the behavior at Talk:E. D. Berman was reprehensible, and we appear to be seeing a real-time repeat. --JBL (talk) 17:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Block amended to indef. El_C 17:44, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@El C: You forgot to remove a reference to block expiration in the block notice on their user talk page. Janhrach (talk) 17:49, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I didn't forget, it's there. El_C 17:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe I am misunderstaning you, I meant the sentence beginning with Once the block has expired. Janhrach (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Ah, got it. Done. El_C 17:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! — Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

And his unblock request shows he isn't able to distinguish content disputes from complaints about his behavior. Not a good sign. Schazjmd (talk) 18:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry that my original block did not meet standards. That's my bad. El_C 18:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

You made an immediate call, which was necessary, and then opened it up for input, considered the input, and adjusted the length. Very responsive and nothing to apologize for. Schazjmd (talk) 18:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Given the problem was ongoing with no sign of stopping, an immediate block, of any length at all, was absolutely appropriate and your chosen length was within within reasonable discretion. Then discussion could continue about the details. For the record, I support indef based on NOTHERE, IDIDNTHEARTHAT/CIR, etc. DMacks (talk) 19:06, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

+1 on Schazjmd and DMack’s comments. Well handled, El_C. - SchroCat (talk) 19:23, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Possible WP:LEGALTHREAT on Talk:Alexa Nikolas

After consulting with another user, it was recommended that I come here for opinions from users/administrators who are more familiar with legal issues and can hand out sanctions if needed.

For some background information, KlausUlrich134 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who joined on December 18, and whose edits have been mostly to Alexa Nikolas, its talk page, or anything regarding her, has been adamant about including alleged accusations on Alexa Nikolas (see the page history). They've been reverted a few times by a few different people, including myself, but they've continued to readd the information, as recently as last month. ElanoreTheTurtle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who joined on December 19, just a day later, and whose edits have only been to Alexa Nikolas or its talk page, recently became active again on Wednesday after having not edited since they joined. Their statement at Talk:Alexa Nikolas#Stalker Mannee Hailey-McMurray concerned me, where they claim that KlausUlrich134 is likely the stalker, which feels like a WP:LEGALTHREAT to me, but, as I said at the beginning, I'm not an expert on this. I don't know if this is a whole fan vs. hater thing or if sockpuppets/meatpuppets are involved, which is why I'm coming here, as there's definitely some strange behavior going on. If this could be looked at, that would be great. Amaury • 20:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

(Redacted) ElanoreTheTurtle (talk) 21:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

ElanoreTheTurtle, you cannot both pursue legal action and edit Wikipedia at the same time, per WP:NLT. If you wish to pursue legal action then you will be blocked and such action must be undertaken by letter. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the response I have no intent of pursuing legal action, only to maintain a standard of maintaining ethical and valid sourcing as well as monitoring misinformation improperly added onto the page. ElanoreTheTurtle (talk) 21:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@ElanoreTheTurtle, this is what you said initially at 21:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• "Thank you for the reply, please refer me to the administrator or noticeboard/incidents page to preserve all meta data involving @KlausUlrich134 account, IP address, edits, and Talk Board conversations, so that is can be shared with legal representative of Alexa Nikolas. As it is stated on her protective order that all online harassment would be deemed a criminal violation."

If you intend to obtain and give user information to others as part of their litigation, then effectively that's the same as making a legal threat. You have to make a choice here - either retract that comment or get blocked.

Our No Legal Threats Policy requires us to block editors who make or imply legal threats. This is not intended to be punitive; it's for legal and practical reasons. It's better for all parties if your professional lawyer deals with the Wikimedia Foundation's lawyers. It's a bad idea when untrained, unpaid Wikipedia volunteers argue with aggrieved parties who are also not attorneys.

If you wish to address the issue here instead, see our Dispute Resolution page.

Regards, --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 22:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Statement has been retracted. ElanoreTheTurtle (talk) 22:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

That article is a dumpster fire, it reads like a mixture of TMZ, the Daily Mail, and the subject's own Twitter/X feed. A beef with a fellow child actress, "I saw my future wedding in an acid trip", and numerous accusations of sexual assault against living persons sources to EW, Distractify, and Buzzfeed. Zaathras (talk) 21:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I removed some claims sourced to Distractify and court records. I'm not opposed to other poorly-sourced claims being removed as well. Woodroar (talk) 21:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

TonyTheTiger is gaming the WikiCup through GAN spam

Proposed sanctions

Over the course of a few days, TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) has increased the number of articles he had pending at GAN from a handful to nearly 70. When asked about it by Ganesha811, TonyTheTiger basically admitted to gaming the system to score WikiCup points, saying that he'd only be willing to withdraw if another backlog drive was guaranteed to him later in the year (at which point he hoped to have date priority on nominations). Such a huge strain on the process might be understandable if his submissions were all carefully scrutinized, but the only charitable explanation is that they clearly were not. 25 of his submissions have been quickfailed by 13 separate reviewers (myself included) on several grounds, including poor sourcing, unsourced sections, poor prose, unhandled maintenance tags, lack of substantive contribution, and lack of breadth. On multiple occasions, after an article was failed, he lashed out at the reviewer before renominating the article with little substantive change. Premeditated Chaos rightly pointed out that this was a pretty clear abuse of the GAN process, Epicgenius (who is a WikiCup judge this year) warned him that his conduct could be seen as gaming, and AirshipJungleman29 noted that he was TBANed from Featured sounds back in 2011 for this exact pattern of conduct.

His behavior pretty much only gets worse from there. If you look at one of his renomination attempts, you'll see that TonyTheTiger, who has been editing since 2006 – rather than choosing to respond to any of the admins, backlog drive coordinators, or other senior editors who had raised concerns about his conduct on his talk page in the past day – chose to go after Generalissima, a relatively new editor on the scene, telling her, "You are bending over backwards to fail this article... Maybe stay in your lane in a field you know." He then told everyone else to Calm down and stop quickfailing stuff for no reason... If you fail a 20-25% [sic] of my articles that does not make me a problem editor. He told another quickfailing reviewer, Teratix, I assume you are lieing [sic] to pick a fight. He has now claimed in multiple places that a vague group of "vindictive" editors are conspiring to fail his articles for WikiCup points, claiming that articles like his get through GAN in good shape all the time. If he's right, I worry. In the meantime, multiple editors have asked him to find and withdraw his poorer-quality nominations, and he has refused, while continuing to making spurious renominations. This is clearly disruptive behavior that needs to be addressed. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

This is really disappointing, because many of his past FAs and GAs are high quality. His FT on the Four Freedoms by Rockwell is great work! Why he has decided to take such a big step down with his quality control in favor of mass-nomination of Start/C-class articles is beyond me; the only way many of these articles would get through GAN is if either a newbie reviewer picks them up without fully understanding the GA criteria, or if a reviewer painstakingly holds his hand the entire way from start class up to meeting the criteria.

I feel a fair response to this would involve suspension from this year's Wikicup for openly trying to game the system, alongside a tight restriction to how many GANs he can have at once, to prevent this sort of waste of reviewers' time in the future. Maybe just one GAN at a time to start out with? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 22:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

given his past pattern of similar behavior, including disruption at FAC & DYK, i worry that this kind of thing will just continue in another area of the project. sawyer * he/they * talk 22:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

That is fair enough. I would absolutely support a topic ban from Wikicup, as I feel this is the primary cause for his behavior. However, a topic ban from GAN should be instituted if this sort of abuse continues outside of the cup. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:01, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Upon all the new evidence being brought forward of his consistent behavior in this respect, mark me down as in favor of a TB from GAN/DYK too. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 22:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• A look back to this very noticeboard in 2011: Tony is topic banned from a) participating in the Featured Sounds process and from b) uploading pictures relating to himself (this is as absurd as it sounds, so let's ignore it). Why was he TBANned from FS? Well:
  • TonyTheTiger nominates anything that he thinks will have a remote change of passing, ignoring negative responses, fighting back his nominations are closed as unsuccessful, and generally clogging FS with items that don't deserve to be featured...He wants to add stars to his trophy wall, and he wants to feed his ego...TTT has a strong case of IDIDNTHEARTHAT, and is pursuing his own self-aggrandizing agenda at the cost of significant community patience, and in this case, the quality of Featured Sounds
  • Tony previously caused similar issues at FPC, nominating pic after pic after pic relating to Chicago...He has also caused problems with mass nominations at DYK (which reflected very poorly on the WikiCup, in which he was participating)
  • TonyTheTiger seems unable to understand the ways in which he disrupts and abuses of featured content processes and other editors' time in his goal of promoting himself...he disrupted DYK in his attempt to win WikiCup, there was an issue at TFA/R, and FAC instituted a special rule to limit repeat noms because of his repeatedly using FAC as Peer review for ill-prepared articles, and bringing back ill-prepared noms the minute the previous one was archived...I don't know if topic bans are a solution, because he just moves on and does the same thing in another area
  • I am also very unimpressed with the shouting and calling of specific others "liars", and would note the lack of support for his position by any other party on this page.
• Move on 13 years, and Tony is again nominating anything that he thinks will have a remote chance of passing, ignoring negative responses, fighting back and immediately renominating unsuccessful nominations, clogging GAN with items that don't deserve to be GAs, disrespecting every other editor involved in the Cup and GAN, and calling other editors "liars" while facing unanimous disagreement, all to feed his ego. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
  • For the record, I support a TBAN from the Cup and three/six-month TBAN from GAN; hopefully that ends the disruption. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Tony *has* withdrawn a few of his nominations since the debacle started (Benji (2012 film), Essex on the Park, NEMA (Chicago) and The Flick). Everything else in your comment is spot on. – Hilst [talk] 22:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• Within my areas of expertise I am still a bit unsure as to why articles are being failed. I think offensive linemen Michael Schofield (American football) and Heath Irwin compare well with my current GA for Patrick Omameh. At Talk:1000M/GA1, I responded completely to the review before renominating. It was not until after a second fail when reviewers explained what the issues were. Had I understood these were the issues, I would have addressed them. Everyone thinks I understand why the articles are deficient in advance of the reviews. I edit on a wide range of topics, many outside of my expertise and need reviews to understand the problems. To people who review in any of certain fields the flaws may seem obtuse, but I did not look at the articles and realise the flaws and then nominate them. The reviews are informative to me. I don't understand why "Humble and Kind" is not regarded as in the general quality range of my 2022 GA "Sheesh!" except for a tag. I am finding the reviewer responses confusing. I have started removing some of my nominations that I are further afield from my expertises.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Tony, if you are so flabbergasted by the reviews you're getting, then that is more indicative of you not reading them than it is an indictment of over a dozen other editors' feedback. Anyways, this is not a place to air your grievances about the quality of the reviews you're receiving, this is a discussion about your behavior. sawyer * he/they * talk 23:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Noting I have nominated Omameh for GA reassessment, as it clearly does not meet the GAC in its current state. – Teratix ₵ 02:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• I think it is clear that the WikiCup is not good for TonyTheTiger (it is supposed to be a fun competition, but he seems to think it is something he needs to win) and TonyTheTiger is not good for the WikiCup (as a fun game, it really should not take such a heavy toll on the GAN backlog; abusing the general community like this endangers the Cup). A topic ban from the WikiCup is the minimum that should happen (full disclosure: this would slightly benefit me, as I am also a competitor in the Cup). However, there are wider WP:IDHT and almost WP:CIR issues related to WP:GAN: TTT has nominated (and sometimes renominated directly after a quickfail) several articles that he last edited years ago, and some of them are significantly out of date, have maintenance tags or other obvious issues (I re-quickfailed one of them, 1000M). So a topic ban from GAN should be at least considered. —Kusma (talk) 23:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
• Mark me down in favor of a topic ban from GAN entirely, given the continued IDHT and inability to take any accountability for his actions, and repeated poor attitude towards other editors. It's clear Tony will not stop this behavior unless he is forced to. The past behavioral issues put me more firmly in support of a restriction. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 23:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
• for the record, i also support a topic ban from both GAN and the WikiCup. the above-mentioned behavior is entirely disruptive, rude, and a waste of our time. the GAN process and the WikiCup do not exist to serve TTT's ego. i concur with Kusma about the IDHT & potential-CIR issues; how anyone could read Humble and Kind (for example) and think it's even slightly close to GA quality is beyond me. patience has run dry.
  edit: as other people have also mentioned they're competing in the Cup, i'll disclose that i am as well. sawyer * he/they * talk 23:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
  • For the record, without an explanation, I don't understand why (other than one tag) "Humble and Kind" is worse than "Sheesh!". I believe the majority of my recent nominations were in the range of proximity to WP:WIAGA to be reasonable nominations. After hundreds of GA reviews, you should know that I am not a problem at GA in general. I feel that the intersection of the GA and the CUP is the issue. I do feel I could work productively at GA without the competitive element of the CUP.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:30, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

    After hundreds of GA reviews, you should know that I am not a problem at GA in general. Doug Coldwell also used his number of GAs to justify his poor behavior and shoddy work... and look where that got him. sawyer * he/they * talk 23:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

    It didn't take long to find a half-dozen reliable sources covering the song's production, some in great detail, that just aren't being used. Even the CMT piece has a lot of untapped material. The fact that I can find this many sources for one section of the article reflects poorly on the rest. To put it bluntly, "Sheesh!" covers all the major aspects of its topic, "Humble and Kind" does not. An editor as experienced as you should realize this. Averageuntitleduser (talk) 00:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  • addendum, after reading others' comments: i don't think a time-based restriction will work. his history of disruption goes all the way back to 2011. while i support a full TBAN from GAN (and certainly from the Cup), i would also be supportive of a strict limit on how many GANs he can make at a time, should a full TBAN not gain consensus here. i think his entitled attitude is the single biggest problem here, as PMC pointed out below. i don't see why we have to give him so much more leeway than he has given his fellow editors. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 13:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Tony, would you be willing to go through all your pending GA noms and withdraw all except those of exceptional quality (or just all). Its looking like you could be heading for a GA topic ban, something I'd think would be a shame since you seem to have a great record of producing good content. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
• Topic ban from GAN and the WikiCup, with regret. TonyTheTiger has continued (re)nominating articles with issues today, well after many editors have expressed both general and specific feedback about the inappropriateness of his mass nominations. His reaction to this feedback has been to deny or underplay issues and shows a lack of regard for other editors' time and the research required for ensuring his nominations are broad in their coverage (#3). Overall, his recent activity has been detrimental to the processes and to the task of building a high-quality encyclopedia. — Bilorv (talk) 23:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
• No ban on anything, Wikipedia eating its own? Assume good faith is a thing. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  with all due respect, did you read the thread? every avenue has been tried before ANI - his talk page, the WikiCup talk page, Teratix' talk page, the GAN drive talk page, and numerous individual reviews. he has been uncivil, refused to listen, and continued to engage in the same disruptive behavior after over a dozen editors, including multiple admins, have asked him to stop. sawyer * he/they * talk 01:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I read the thread before responding. Have now read Tony's talk page, and there seems a mix of failed and under review Good articles. He now is pulling some back, as mentioned above. My comment was only about jumping from concerns to banning TtT from GAN, where he has excelled for years. Wikipedia eating its own is a thing, as seen many times on this page when that kind of jump is made from discussion to "Get 'em!". But good faith is one of the best things, so let's use that one instead. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Tony has not assumed good faith of those who have reviewed his articles. he said to Generalissima "You are bending over backwards to fail this article... Maybe stay in your lane in a field you know." he claimed "There is an overzealous posse of editors quickfailing my articles." at the Cup talk page. he accused Teratix of "lieing to pick a fight." i could go on; what else is there to do at this point? sawyer * he/they * talk 01:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic bans from GAN and the WikiCup (disclosure: I'm technically still a contestant in the Cup but I have no hope of progressing to the next round). There are seven distinct grounds:

1. Mass-nominating GANs to an extent that would be absurd and disrespectful of volunteers' time even if all nominations were impeccable.
2. Mass-nominating GANs with especially obvious, gaping flaws, indicating Tony either does not read the articles he is nominating or fails to understand the GAC. Talk:1000M/GA1 is a representative example (where Tony either didn't notice or didn't care about an entirely promotional and unsourced section) but I recommend reading his other quickfailed articles for the full perspective.
3. Renominating GANs after quickfails without fixing the article's problems. See Talk:1000M/GA2, Talk:Kenny Demens/GA2, etc.
4. Openly admitting this behaviour is motivated by tactical concerns related to his WikiCup performance. See User talk:TonyTheTiger#GA nominations
5. Displaying an appalling attitude towards how the GAN process runs, believing the project should bend over backwards to schedule backlog drives and grant special exemptions from date priority for his benefit. Read his replies to Ganesha811 on User talk:TonyTheTiger#GA nominations. I have never seen more entitled behaviour.
6. Behaving uncivilly towards reviewers and critics. See Thebiguglyalien's summary, I'm by no means sure this is comprehensive.
7. Not recognising and in many cases doubling down on this bad behaviour.

• To be clear, I see the GAN and WikiCup bans as inseparable – neither sanction on its own would adequately address these problems. – Teratix ₵ 02:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Tony's behaviour has been appalling enough already but I want to add an eighth ground – openly admitting "I edit on a wide range of topics, many outside of my expertise and need reviews to understand the problems". Or, in other words, "I nominate articles in areas where I know I cannot competently assess whether they have issues and rely on volunteer reviewers to inform me of obvious inadequacies". – Teratix ₵ 02:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support GAN nomination ban, temporary or indef GAN reviewers' time is precious. Wasting it is disruptive. (t · c) buidhe 02:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support TBAN from GAN and WikiCup. Buidhe and Teratix have both put it very well. Frankly at this point I'm inclined to support a block. This is not the first time Tony has gamed Wikipedia processes for his own arbitrary personal goals, but it is the first time he's been quite so nakedly honest about what he's doing. No one who would make a statement like I am willing to stop nominating new articles until April 1 if you can promise that there will be another backlog drive in October is operating in good faith. That's right everyone, if we can promise Tony that we'll organize an entire backlog drive on his schedule, he'll stop mass-nominating garbage. For now. Oh, how kind of him! The level of entitlement he feels to other peoples' effort so that he can have points for a game fucking boils my blood. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• There's rightly been a lot of outrage about Tony's abuse of process, both here and elsewhere. Surely a GAN/WC ban is an inadequate response to a very serious conduct issue? Tony's behaviour is a very clear case of WP:NOTHERE and WP:IDIDNTHERETHAT. His abuse of process is borderline vandalistic and certainly disruptive edit-warring. His personal attacks on other editors have been unwarranted and severe. He seems to have no intention of changing his behaviour and continues to persevere with a perverse victim mentality. Other editors have been blocked for less. I don't understand why editors in this discussion are not considering a harsher response. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 02:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Project block, minimum one month, preferably indefinite. Per my comment above. Editors in this discussion are far to eager to excuse serious, sustained, and deliberate misconduct from an editor with an obvious NOTHERE attitude who really ought to know better. If unblocked, permanent ban from WC, GAN, FAC, and DYK. All the red flags have been there for years now. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 02:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• Can anyone show that Tony is like this when not participating in the WikiCup? I don't understand how AirshipJungleman29 has turned up quotes from 13 years ago that basically could have been written yesterday. Has everything been fine in the intervening 13 years? Is this a case of someone losing their senses specifically because of the WikiCup competition and otherwise being mostly normal? What is even going on here? -- asilvering (talk) 02:51, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Has everything been fine in the intervening 13 years? No, there was also a debacle last August when he tried to make a special date request for his sister's article (that he wrote) to appear on DYK on her birthday. Discussion is here: Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 195#COI issue at Carla Vernón. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  That is just bizarre. He did not see to understand why we don't do any of that, including pictures of himself. Secretlondon (talk) 12:08, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Asilvering: I can say that I think Tony bludgeoning the process isn't limited to the Cup or GAN. My first interactions with him were on the vital articles project, where my impression of him quickly became that he would relentlessly badger anybody (and sometimes everybody) that disagreed with one of his proposals. I don't have the energy to revisit all of it, as this was a big reason why I left the VA project, but I recall one particularly bad thread in which he (in the words of The Blue Rider) "[came] after everyone who hasn't supported his proposals enough times". In this same thread, I also expressed discomfort over what I felt were some very inappropriate remarks about a woman athlete, which he doubled down on. In an earlier thread, only a few days before this, Tony opened a comment saying "Forgive me if it seems I am badgering the voters, which does not seem to be something that we do here" before going on to badger the two users that opposed his proposal.

  I'm not going to comment one what I believe should be done, as I'm not an admin so I don't think this is my place, I'm just recounting some of my past experiences with him. -- Grnrchst (talk) 14:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN from both GAN and WikiCup – Before continuing, I will disclose that I am also a contestant of the WikiCup like others have listed above, so therefore something like this would effect me. At first glance, I didn't think these mass nominations were that bad, many editors keep a backlog on a backburner. I didn't think it was much of an issue until realizing the quality of them and noticing TTT's behavior beyond this. I view the comments he made towards Generalissima and other editors, as well as the ones he has used to defend himself or make demands (ex. demanding a backlog drive) as unacceptable. I simply can not understand how any editor with good intentions can blatantly attack other users over a game. Hell, knowing his previous topic bans for similar reasons, this is something where the punishment could go beyond a topic ban, and if this discussion escalated to that I'd support that such action be taken. Absolutely egregious. λ NegativeMP1 03:33, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support TBAN from GAN and Wikicup, at the very least: I was there for the featured sound debacle and well remember it. This is just history repeating again. I'd also support anything from a ban from all article nomination processes up to a block of any length, including indefinite. Enough is enough. Graham87 (talk) 03:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Weak oppose an outright GAN TBAN. While The Tiger's recent acting is...erm...concerning, to say the least, we should not ignore his previous great work, including a bazillion actually good GAs, and an outright TBAN is too much over a single incident with an otherwise constructive editor. I don't have the energy to workshop it, but I would support a proposal that limits how many GANs he can submit per day/week/month and/or a limit on how fast he can renominate GANs. No opinion on a WC TBAN; for disclosure's sake, I participated in round 1 of the cup, but was eliminated. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) queen of 🖤 (they/them; chat) 04:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  I would be willing to drop down to just a tban from the cup if Tony would actually take responsibility and agree to only nominate a few articles at a time, articles which he has actually put serious work into (and I think we all know he is perfectly capable of writing quite good articles when he puts his mind to it). But I have not seen that just far, only demands for us to bend our backs for him because he feels entitled to spam half-baked nominations for the sake of a contest where the prize for winning is nothing more than bragging rights. He has yet to even show he understands why his nominations are being failed despite the reviewers offering clear reasons and actionable feedback. Bottom line, Tony did this to himself despite being given multiple opportunities to self-correct and avoid any sanctions. I don't take any pleasure in supporting a TBAN from creating quality content, but this has gone well past the line of acceptable behavior. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 15:46, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose TBAN from GAN, but like queen of 🖤, I would also support an alternate proposal for some limitations on how many he can submit in a given time frame. This thread has only been open for a few hours, and going from zero to sixty seems kind of extreme in my view. No opinion on WikiCup. Isaidnoway (talk) 05:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• support CUP tban . If User:TonyTheTiger apologises for lashing out at reviewers, I think a cap of 1 open nomination at GAN may work. TTT has engaged well with the process in the past, and if seems the intersection between the competition and the uneven GAN process is driving his behaviour. Without recognition that his behaviour towards reviewers was unacceptable, I do not have trust in TTT engaging with the process. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 07:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'm also happy to support Schrocats suggestion below, except for the fact that I would like to put the max 5 nominations as part of the restriction to give clarity to TTT. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 09:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Five nominations sounds too many. I think stick to your suggestion of 1. This isn't just about flooding GAN, it's the personal attacks that have come with it. Editors have a right not to face that kind of chilling behaviour. Tony will be lucky to escape a GAN outright ban here so allowing one at a time seems reasonable to me.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:09, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  You're right, I was too hasty: any rope here should be accompanied by TTT showing they understand why their behaviour was unacceptable. A cap of up to 3 would still seem reasonable to me after a 3-month ban, 5 indeed stretches it. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 10:21, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  What about a limit of 1 to start with, and if those have a decent 75% rate of passing after [some unit of time] it could maybe creep up to 3. That’s just my idea reading this, let me know if this makes no sense. Geardona (talk to me?) 10:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  75% is quite a low pass rate. I expect a near 100% pass rate for experienced nominators. Otherwise, this makes sense. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 11:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  It's one thing to have a pass rate of less than 100% (though I'd be embarrassed if my pass rate dropped below near 100%, personally). It is another entirely to have nominations so poor they are being routinely quickfailed. We are dealing with the latter here. I would support Femke's proposal if Tony would take feedback seriously, but thus far he has refused to do so, leaving us with only sanctions as an option to change his behavior. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 15:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN from the cup; three month ban from GAN. The cup seems to be the driver for the disruption, so ban from that. GAN is where the disruption is taking place, so a more limited ban from that (on condition that all nominations are withdrawn). There’s no point in pushing a harder ban that’s harms the encyclopaedia and punishes TTT after the cause of the disruption has been sorted. He has three months to be able to work on whatever he wants, but a similar mass nomination at GAN (more than five articles in the process at any one time), should be a trigger for further time out off the process. - SchroCat (talk) 08:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support TBAN from the cup; three month ban from GAN per SchroCat. Let's keep remedies simple. I want to address the question of good faith. It's an inevitable feature of the discussions around erring senior editors that we must assume the good faith of an editor who has declined to do the same in return. Good faith really has nothing to do with it. Tony's behavior is disruptive regardless of his intentions. The question is whether Tony is prepared to acknowledge that other editors have a problem with his conduct and change his behavior. That's your standard feedback cycle. Editors get shown the door when they can't or won't change. Mackensen (talk) 10:37, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support TBAN from the cup and remove all his current nominations. Tony knows perfectly well how to nominate good quality articles at GAN; if he continues to nominate clearly unready articles that's a problem we can address then, perhaps with a short GAN ban, but I see no reason why he would without the cup as motivation. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• There is a narrative emerging among a couple of editors' comments here along the lines of "Tony is basically competent to submit GANs but in this case he went too far because he was competing in the WikiCup". I want to push back on that a little and draw these editors' attention specifically to Tony's comment earlier in this thread, where he says Within my areas of expertise I am still a bit unsure as to why articles are being failed. That is, he looks at a review like Talk:Heath Irwin/GA1, and actually can't understand what the problem with the article is. And that's in an area he claims to be comfortable editing in.
  When it comes to areas he describes as outside his expertise, it gets worse: Everyone thinks I understand why the articles are deficient in advance of the reviews. I edit on a wide range of topics, many outside of my expertise and need reviews to understand the problems. That is, he nominates articles to GAN, outside his experience, knowing he lacks the ability to tell whether the articles contain basic deficiencies or not, and uses volunteer reviewers as a crutch to paper over the gaps.
  I understand these sort of discussions balloon very rapidly, and there are a lot of comments to read through. But if your position is "support an indefinite Cup ban but more hesitant on an indefinite GAN ban", Tony's comment here should be ringing alarm bells. It speaks not just to a specific incompetence to edit under competitive pressure, but a more fundamental lack of understanding about GAN. It has definitely pushed me to favour an indefinite ban from GAN over a time-limited ban or restrictions on the number of simultaneous nominations. – Teratix ₵ 11:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  i'm inclined to agree with this, unfortunate as it is. an indefinite ban is not necessarily permanent, and if Tony can demonstrate that he can once again produce quality work, i see no reason why he couldn't be unbanned. i do think that the Cup is the inciting factor here, but Teratix is right that he seems to not understand GAN itself, which is very strange. yeah upon further thought now that i'm more awake, one really can't have gotten multiple FAs and not understand GAN ... sawyer * he/they * talk 13:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  I think I disagree here. If somebody has multiple FAs, they know full well what to do for a GA, but choose not to, and perhaps overplay ignorance as an excuse not to prepare their nominations sufficiently, or an unwillingness to take the time to take in reviewers comments. I think the issue is primarily behavioural, rather than competence. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 16:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Agree that seeing this as a competence issue makes no sense, and it's strange that Tony appears to be trying to spin it as one. Someone who keeps a writing habit doesn't just spontaneously forget how to write, barring literal brain damage. Something else is obviously going on. -- asilvering (talk) 16:50, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  good point. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 20:46, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Femke, you may be interested in reading Gog the Mild's comments on his behaviour at FAC – he hasn't had an article promoted in ten years and his last ten nominations have been archived without success. I'm speculating here, but it could be a case of the project's standard for quality content advancing over time while Tony's writing standard remains the same, resulting in a misperception of what's required. It is difficult for me to explain Tony's comments here as merely the product of Cup pressure. – Teratix ₵ 01:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

• TBAN from the cup and GAN GAN reviewing can be hard enough even when the article is relatively high-quality; you're reading through an entire bibliography and acting as a copyeditor for a basically thankless job. It is not reasonable to expect GAN reviewers to hand-hold somebody who's been around here for so long through writing a GA-quality article; if you don't understand what makes a GA in a certain topic, don't nominate 70 of them to figure it out. AryKun (talk) 12:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  In case it matters: I'm participating in the WikiCup and will probably qualify for the next round. AryKun (talk) 12:50, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• I'd support a Wikicup ban without question at this point, as it seems like per the above any reward-based area seems to bring out the worst in him. I'm not opposed to an outright GAN ban, but I'd perhaps prefer an indefinite strict nomination limit, no more than 3 so that the articles can actually be properly written. A three month ban stated above isn't going to work since the mass-nomming of articles that don't meet GA standards will just continue. Wizardman 13:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Changing my stance to Support Cup/GAN/DYK ban per the added evidence, it's clear that he's not getting it, and seems to think this is a game that he has to win at all costs rather than just writing article to write them. Wizardman 18:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I'll note we've seen similar behavior at DYK, including arguing about his apparent interest in gaming of DYK rules by saying, All rules are made to be broken and gamed.
  Example of how he intends to game here: As I think of my next potential DYK candidate, Joanne McCarthy (basketball) that I have 5xed over the weekend, the new set of rules allows two alternatives. 1. I could DYK now and GA-DYK in 5 years with minimal change 2. I could GA now and DYK within 7 days after it gets approved with a 2nd DYK only possible with another 5x in 5 years. This was in a discussion of whether DYK should allow repeat appearances. Tony literally is planning 5 years out so he can get repeat DYK credits.
  I'm actually a little concerned that a tban from GAN/WikiCup might just transfer the issue to DYK full time. Tony seems to be extremely interested in scorekeeping. Which of course can be a motivator for some people, and he's certainly created or improved a lot of articles. Valereee (talk) 13:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  "All rules are made to be broken and gamed" that is absolutely ridiculous, and i think you're right that this disruption will just move over to DYK. his idea of "GA-DYKing in 5 years with minimal change" says to me that he either doesn't understand or doesn't care about how GAN works. probably both. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 13:46, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  He didn't do that, though: Talk:Joanne McCarthy (basketball)/GA1. Also, in the Joanne McCarthy (basketball) review, the CUP points gaming again comes up as an issue in a couple of ways. He requests the reviewer promote in a specified time frame (Also, be advised that I am competing in the WP:CUP. Do not promote on Feb 28 or 29.) and in response to a sourcing concern about the subject's Polish heritage, a source is quickly added to the article that likely does not meet WP:BLP. The McCarthy article is not a problematic page (loads of pages have small sections or a few missing sources), but Tony is clearly capable of better writing (Juwan Howard) outside of this CUP context. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 15:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  i'm not entirely sure if you're disagreeing with me (or if you were intending to respond directly to Valereee's comment?) but i agree with the substance of what you're saying ... sawyer * he/they * talk 19:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Not so much disagreeing with either of you, but pointing out the nuance that even though his talk page comment was regarding DYK, the actual disruptive edits (overloading GA and placing a bizarre citation into a BLP) were again done in the context of the CUP. To be clear: I would support a WikiCup TBAN, but I'm not speculating on how he'll react. I empathize with the frustration from editors in this discussion about the need for this discussion to get this far, but don't see the need to impose the various restrictions mentioned in this thread all at once. Apologies if I was opaque before, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  no worries! i just wasn't entirely clear on your position. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 02:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

• I am not familiar enough with the WikiCup situation to have any firm opinion on it, but when it comes to GAN I support, at minimum, the removal of all outstanding nominations. I noticed the nomination of Malcolm (Macbeth), which is very obviously very far from GA standards even at a quick glance. An editor with both hundreds of successful GA nominations of their own and hundreds of reviews of other people's nominations surely knows better; on the off chance that they genuinely do not, I think it's reasonable to conclude that they likely never will. Nominating articles that are not ready would appear to be a pattern; looking at the user's talk page, I saw that during the course of a 24-hour time period (20:25 UTC on 22 March to 20:25 UTC on 23 March), no fewer than 25 "Failed GA" messages were left by (ChristieBot on behalf of) ten different reviewers. This indicates to me that leaving the remainder of the (rather large number of) nominations up would not be a good use of the community's time. TompaDompa (talk) 14:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• I think part of the problem is with the editor but part of it is with the WikiCup... Its not set up for an honest editor to win, its set up for the winner to be the person who games the system the hardest without betting disqualified. The WikiCup clearly encourages gaming the system because a significant number of the recent winners won that way. The difference is that most of those editors were more subtle about it than this one. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:46, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  This is a valid criticism, and indeed is why I declined to participate in the cup this year. My suggestions to balance scoring to stop this have yet to be adopted. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  For the curious, can you link to those suggestions? -- asilvering (talk) 16:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  The suggestions are at Wikipedia talk:WikiCup/Archive/2023/1#Points for next year. For what it's worth, any Wikipedia contest such as the Cup will by its very nature be competitive and could be considered by some as gaming; however, the vast majority of editors don't also violate Wikipedia guidelines or policies while participating. – Epicgenius (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that the WikiCup encourages users to time their nominations for maximum score (instead of nominating when the article is ready). I'm not sure that this is a huge problem; different people have won the Cup using different strategies over the last years, and some of them increased my respect for the winners, others did not. The issue here is that TTT did not just try to score WikiCup points with little effort, but disrupted other processes while doing so. —Kusma (talk) 16:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  I agree its not generally a problem, its kind of a poster child for something that is objectively a net positive... But that doesn't mean it doesn't have downsides. But on the other hand these are issues the community should never be having to deal with, the whole point of the game having referees/managers is to prevent this sort of community disruption and time wasting from happening. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  I checked the past four WikiCups and you can't say any of the winners were gaming; they all did a fair number of FACs and otherwise earned their points in a lot of ways, from doing lots of GANRs to making large GTs to ITN. Only one winner mainly relied on points from GAs, and nominating 60 articles you've worked on over the course of the year over two months is hardly gaming. This is poor decision-making on TTT's part and not something that's a trend with the cup. AryKun (talk) 17:38, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  More than one way to game the system. Agree to disagree on whether this is a trend, but note that it would be remarkable if a competition like the wikicup didn't come with the negatives normally associated with open entry organized competitions. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• For the sake of completion I note that TTT's last ten nominations at FAC have all been archived. Nine are from 2014–2016 and one from 2023. This included five nominations of Emily Ratajkowski; in the last of these TTT received a coordinator warning "Tony, I'm not prepared to allow accusations of bad faith leveled at reviewers without substantive evidence. Please strike these immediately and keep your comments focused on the content, not the editor. This isn't the venue. Additionally, there are many occasions when nominators and reviewers come to an impasse about content. I'd prefer you let [the FAC coordinators] weigh the matter rather than posting repeated pings and harangues when the reviewer has disengaged." TTT kicked back. (Disclosure: I have been a FAC coordinator since 2020 and closed TTT's 2023 FAC nomination.) Gog the Mild (talk) 17:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Based on the assembled examples of tendentious behavior in relation not only to GAN/WikiCup, but also DYK, FAC, and COI editing, I think that a GAN/WikiCup ban is the bare minimum sanction, and that a broad WP-space ban may in fact be more appropriate (although this is somewhat complicated by the fact that these various processes exist across multiple Wikipedia namespaces). What I see here is a pattern of behavior for over a decade of consistently engaging with quality-control/content-promotion processes in an entirely self-serving fashion, conveniently ignoring guidelines when it suits them, and accusations of bad faith against editors who don't provide review results to their liking. There's little reason to believe that this behavior will change other than by barring them from engaging with such processes. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support TBAN from WikiCup and GAN. TTT has an extensive history of NOTHERE gaming the system for Wikipedia points and self-promotion. I would support further bans as well. JoelleJay (talk) 18:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support WikiCup TBAN I don't like commenting at ANI, but this seems like a good time to step in as someone who has experience with Tony from the Vital Articles project. Sadly, it would appear that a TBAN from the WikiCup is needed to deal with disruption, but I believe that he can be productive. I also weakly support a restriction on open GANs as a fair step to prevent disruption without barring him from making good content entirely. I oppose an indefinite ban because he has shown himself to be a quality contributor who can contribute productively when not doing stuff like this. I believe a WikiCup TBAN and a restriction on GANs will solve the problem while allowing him to continue to contribute productively. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support WikiCup TBAN with the suggestion of leaving our snarky remarks at the door in the future. Panini! • 🥪 20:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support permanent WikiCup TBAN and temporary GA and DYK TBAN, as a minimum. I was prepared to limit my support only to a TBAN from WikiCup, as the current locus of disruption, until I saw Valeree's comment quoting TTT as very recently saying "All rules are made to be broken and gamed". No. That is not the sort of collegiality and cooperation that we should be bringing to Wikipedia editing. Some rules are obstructions but almost all were created as a response to a specific problem, and TTT's behavior is a problem that is currently producing a push for more obstructive rules at WT:GAN that could slow down the whole GA system for everyone. If we take away WikiCup, it seems likely that GA badge counts will become the next personal contest to game. The GA process needs time away from TTT's disruption, for one thing to evaluate what is to be done to distinguish TTT's many valid Good Articles from those that may need reconsideration (with at least two currently under formal reassessment). Valeree's comment raises DYK as another very likely locus of disruption and a temporary TBAN could well head that off. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• I'm going to stay neutral on the GAN and CUP topic ban proposals, since I don't think I have anything more to add to those discussions, but I oppose a topic ban from DYK in any form, at least for now. TonyTheTiger's conduct at DYK has only peripherally been discussed in this thread, and while there would be some more to unpack if it were focused on, I'm unconvinced that the DYK-specific evidence could necessitate action at this time. TBANs are preventative, but they're never preemptive. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support permanent WikiCup TBan. TonyTheTiger's participation in the WikiCup has caused problems since at least 2010 ("Michigan basketball overload", 2 sections at WT:DYK). I also propose topic ban on solo nominations in any article recognition venue: FA, GA, FP, FL, DYK ... anything. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know&diff=prev&oldid=1194391967 "All rules are made to be broken and gamed" on January 8, 2024 (after repeated discussion of his gaming and overwhelming at review venues, including sanctions applying to specific venues); the attempts to bargain by making new demands on backlog drive dates, also recent; and the admissions of insufficient knowledge about topics on which he is submitting articles for GA consideration. The COI promotional submission at DYK is the cherry on top. He's too focused on collecting accolades and evidently will continue clogging any recognition process in which he participates. If he wants to create and improve articles for the benefit of the encyclopedia, let him collaborate with other editors on nominations. Otherwise, do without the potential recognition. (And yes, I recommend a procedural quickfail of all his current GA nominations. Someone else can further improve an article they believe has GA potential and renominate it; at GA level there's always room for further improvement, and the list can be a useful source of improvement candidates.) (I have not participated in the WikiCup for many years, or in DYK for a similar number of years, except for a couple of nominations of articles I'd worked on by someone else.) Yngvadottir (talk) 23:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support TBAN from GAN and DYK, also remove all his current GANs. This diff in particular is just shameless, also given past incidents of gaming the system.--Catlemur (talk) 01:19, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• Block from any "awards" whether GAN, WikiCup, DYK or what have you. Should have been when he tried to get his sister onto the fromt page with blatant disregard for COI. Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know/Archive_195#COI_issue_at_Carla_Vernón but escaped it then. Clear history of acting in his own interest and not that of the project. Star Mississippi 01:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• (Disclaimer: I first heard about the situation involving Tony on Discord a few days ago, when it came up in a discussion among GAN reviewers, but I wasn't canvassed or asked to participate in any discussion, and my views here are purely my own.) Having reviewed the different discussions that have taken place at Tony's talk page and Wikipedia talk:WikiCup, I think a permanent topic ban for TonyTheTiger from the WikiCup is warranted. Tony has repeatedly refused to get the point that their conduct has been disruptive and a drain on other editors who are trying to participate in the WikiCup in good faith. Some of Tony's remarks that were directed towards other editors, especially Generalissima, are also pretty subpar and fall below the expectations I would have of somebody who has been editing Wikipedia for nearly 18 years. As for a topic ban from GAN or other featured content processes, I am more neutral; I think Tony could contribute to these areas constructively provided that he no longer participates in the WikiCup, but I understand why others feel that a broader topic ban or restriction might be necessary to address Tony's conduct. MaterialsPsych (talk) 02:37, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support TBAN from GAN and removal of current GANs. His current behavior is disruptive to the GA process, as many have stated above; a TBAN from GAN is sufficient to prevent that disruption. I very much doubt the disruption will stop until TTT recognizes why his behavior is disruptive and commits to changing it (I have seen evidence of neither). An indefinite TBAN until he's prepared to make such a commitment seems appropriate. Ajpolino (talk) 02:51, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• No bans (edit conflict)I am not sure why every solution to problems must include onerous sanctions. As Starship.paint has said below, we are in the middle of things... and IMO there is not an immediate need to stop a disruption. Lightburst (talk) 02:54, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  So, just to be clear, you don't feel there's any problem with Tony's behavior here at all? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:00, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Appeal for GAN TBAN exception for already actively reviewed GANs

I see that there are GANs already actively being reviewed before the start of this ANI. One is Talk:3:16 game/GA1 where Tony is the reviewer. Another is Talk:In a World.../GA1 where Tony's article is being reviewed. Others include Talk:Wait a Minute (The Pussycat Dolls song)/GA3, Talk:Wait a Minute (The Pussycat Dolls song)/GA3 and Talk:Joanne McCarthy (basketball)/GA1. Perhaps there are more such GANs that I missed. In the interests of being reasonable, having courtesy and respect for Tony and the other reviewer/reviewed editors of these GANs, I suggest a carve-out to allow Tony to participate in these if he receives a GAN TBAN. This does not apply to GANs only nominated but not reviewed yet. This would also not apply to any GAN Tony started after the ANI began. starship.paint (RUN) 23:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

User:BunicaValea

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This is a pretty obvious sockpuppet of User:Andriyrussu (see the SPI) but they are now going around making disruptive edits to do with Russia–Ukraine war despite not being extended confirmed and being alerted about WP:RUSUKR. I do not think Andriyrussu is banned yet but I only see them creating more accounts in the foreseeable future. Mellk (talk) 23:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

They are now rapidly going around reverting edits by me and User:Drmies. Please can we indef this account? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 00:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Blocked and tagged. DanCherek (talk) 00:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alquin Yaell G. Rafales - CIR or NOTHERE

Alquin Yaell G. Rafales (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user's contributions consist almost exclusively of tampering with images. Some of these changes are clear disruption by using an incorrect image (e.g. [177], [178]), some are packing multiple images where only one is needed, some are using lower-quality images than the one that was already there.

In addition, the user puts as their edit summary either "Alquin Yaell Rafales" or "Ma. Antonia Rafales" every time. They have been warned about this, but continue to do so.

This looks like a clear case of CIR, or possibly NOTHERE. The "List of <manufacturer> vehicles" pages are frequent targets for disruption and various LTAs, but I don't think this is the latter. 124.6.167.161 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is also be this user and doesn't seem to align with any LTAs I recognize. Regardless, this user doesn't seem to be doing anything constructive here. --Sable232 (talk) 02:51, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I noticed this on my watchlist; I've blocked as NOTHERE. I'll say more in a bit. Graham87 (talk) 19:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

This database query also coughed up similar edit summaries in the last 30 days by 103.120.5.130 and 122.54.158.167. Graham87 (talk) 19:29, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Reporting User:Hölderlin2019 for the repeated violation of WP:BLP and WP:V as well as engaging in Meatpuppetry with User:Advocata

• Hölderlin2019 (t · th · c · del · cross-wiki · SUL · edit counter · pages created (xtools · sigma) · non-automated edits · BLP edits · undos · manual reverts · rollbacks · logs ^{(blocks · rights · moves)} · rfar · spi · cci) (assign permissions)^{(acc · ap · fm · mms · npr · pm · pcr · rb · te)}
• Advocata (t · th · c · del · cross-wiki · SUL · edit counter · pages created (xtools · sigma) · non-automated edits · BLP edits · undos · manual reverts · rollbacks · logs ^{(blocks · rights · moves)} · rfar · spi · cci) (assign permissions)^{(acc · ap · fm · mms · npr · pm · pcr · rb · te)}

Starting with the unsourced edits mostly to BLPs, deceased and some org articles. For clarity, noting here that User:Advocata is only accused of Meatpuppetry as of now. Their contributions have not been thoroughly checked yet. Also noting that there seems to be no on-wiki conversations between these two users, apart from 1 instance that I noticed somewhere.

23 March 2024

• Removed the maintenance template, short description and addition of WP:OR/unsourced
• Original reserch?
• Unsourced family section
• WP:OR
• V. N. Srinivasa Rao Added the family section (unsourced) WP:SYNTH?
• How do we even verify this?
• [179] Note: They mention it as Calamur dynasty.
• unsourced
• Unsourced family section
• From google translate, the source does not seem to mention his name
• Would like to know how this was verified
• Source does not mention either of their names.
• Unsourced
• Unsourced addition on C. R. Pattabhiraman
• Unsourced family section on Calamur Mahadevan
• At this point, I think they are building a/their dynasty on Wikipedia
• Source?
• Not WP:RS
• A keyword search "Hariram Sastri" on the source cited returns empty
• Full of original research
• Unsourced, unsourced, unsourced and unsourced
• Unsourced entry. Building a dynasty?
• Cited a homepage of a company

All the above are only from 23 March 2024. When warned and explained about unsourced additions, Hölderlin2019 says WP:V only applies to users who have already indulged in suspicious behavior. No, that has never been Wikipedia practice, and occurs almost exclusively where a strong suspicion exists that a user is wantonly introducing specious material. [180]. Then proceeds to discredit the WP:RAJ essay which is widely accepted and followed in the Indian wikiproject. When asked if they are planning to cite the sources, they replied saying [181]. I'll be glad to dig further through their previous contributions if required.

WP:COI and Meatpuppetry

• At this point in this thread, it is very well established from their contributions and the articles they have created that User:Hölderlin2019 is someone from the Calamur Dynasty. Although we already have an article about C. V. Karthikeyan from 19 May 2021‎, Hölderlin2019 created one for C. V. Karthikeyan in their user page. An editor who believes they are familiar with Wikipedia policies(They cited WP:OR on their 6th edit[182]) should have known that adding misleading user page content or hosting irrelevant content is is susceptible to WP:U5. When their userpage was tagged for U5, out of nowhere came User:Advocata to remove the CSD after 1 hour, noting that it was "vandalism and should go to ANI" [183]. User:Advocata's last edit before removing the csd was on 15 March 2024 and has not edited since removing the CSD. Interaction Analyser Interaction Timeline. Some instances are
• diff vs diff - All the activity happened between 13 march - 14 march are hours and minutes apart.
• diff vs diff - Both editors seem to say that the unsourced content are easily available on the internet for verification or the editors need to familiar with the topics they edit and should be competent enough to understand/edit it themselves.
• Koothali Nair was initially created by Hölderlin2019 on 17 September 2023 and was draftified. Recreated by User:Advocata on 12 February 2024 [184]

I believe the above evidences are enough to warrant an indefinite block on User:Hölderlin2019 for the long term violation of WP:BLP, WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior(check talk page conversations), undisclosed COI editing and promoting the Calamur Dynasty and the BLPs related to Calamur, indulging in obvious Meatpuppetry. Likewise, User:Advocata for Meatpuppetry. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 10:15, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• WP:COIN is for raising COI concern and WP:SPI is for raising meatpuppetry concern. I would urge any Checkuser to take action with regards to the report I filed some days ago at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Advocata. Capitals00 (talk) 11:50, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Another article, Aryama Sundaram, related to the Calamur family with unsourced content, and also which I highlighted the second sentence in the lead to Hölderlin2019 as being peacock and puffery, and he has since added more promotional puffery content to the lead paragraph.

Both editors also claim this image is their own work — Advocata – Hölderlin2019

• Some potential copyvio concerns with these images, which Hölderlin2019 claims to be their own work:
  • C. V. Ranganathan → screenshot from YouTube
  • some of the images in this gallery found on the internet via Google image search: [185], [186], [187], [188], [189], [190]. I don't know, maybe he is a prolific photographer? Isaidnoway (talk) 15:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

IP User - constant abuse/attacks.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

See User_talk:2A02:908:454:1660:0:0:0:D517. User has been told several times about the NPA rule, regardless of his or her current dispute with editing. User continues to ignore said warnings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Synorem (talk • contribs) 14:18, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Exteahans71 repeatedly inserting unsourced content

They've had several warnings issued in the past but have failed to heed them.[191] A few days ago I reverted a bunch of their unsourced additions to the Ruby Gillman, Teenage Kraken article[192] and the response was to reinsert the material, including an entirely unreferenced Writing section.[193] I issued (another) final warning on their talk page, removed the unreferenced Writing section again and the reponse was to reinstate it without an edit summary.[194] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barry Wom (talk • contribs) 16:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I concur. The user's behavior is problematic. They did the same thing to my edits on the same page, [195], [196], [197], [198], [199] I've left warnings on their talk page as well and they have not stopped their behavior.Contributor19 (talk) 02:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Blanking replies on talk page

AravindEditor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is not only WP:FORUMing on the talk page, removing references to entire sections and denying that it was vandalism (see [[200]], [[201]]and [[202]]) and with the revision in question, making a mockery of the purpose of a talk page with [[203]] and resorting to WP:IDNHT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT arguments. Borgenland (talk) 16:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Add these uncivil and sarcastic replies when I suggested where the proper forum for his complaints are and warned him for repeated vandalism. See [[204]] and [[205]]. Borgenland (talk) 17:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay I'm sorry once again I will try to be a better editor in this page in sorry if I talked or messaged in a way which made you uncomfortable

Sorry AravindEditor (talk) 17:15, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Please forgive me,I'm sorry. AravindEditor (talk) 17:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I have been watching your edits on the page as well, and I can see they are mostly unconstructive and you have been blanking content critiquing the current government as seen here. Some more concerning edits 1, 2, 3 and 4 Ok123l (talk) 18:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I accept the mistake im sorry. I wont be doing anymore edits in wikipedia.

thank you AravindEditor (talk) 18:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

AravindEditor seems to have good intentions, but is deeply lacking in the competency department. It's not just blanking issues -- they don't seem to understand what they're doing wrong across a great number of issues, from blanking, to licensing concerns, to POV edits; nor do they seemingly show a willingness to learn despite having been pointed to sources of help. I strongly recommend that they take a self-imposed pause from editing until they've become much more familiar with our policies, procedures, norms, and standards. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 18:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure sir i do promise that i would only edit any further after knowing each and every policy of the wikipedia and i would respectfully follow it.I guess i was wrong in my way of doing the edits without any proper guidance. I will surely improve myself

Thank You. AravindEditor (talk) 18:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

User:SheriffIsInTown chronic reverting problem

Continously reverting and redirecting ([206], [207], [208]) on Election Commission of Pakistan general election forms and trying to impose a redirect without a consensus. Generally, this should be handled through WP:AFD and considered as a failed WP:PROD, but this guy will mindlessly revert, revert, and revert. 141.195.113.18 (talk) 18:25, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Similar problem was highlighted by @Saqib: as well a few days ago, but it was archived prematurely by a bot. 141.195.113.18 (talk) 18:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Ping to @Wiki.0hlic: who was also involved. 141.195.113.18 (talk) 18:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• The author of that article was blocked following the investigation detailed in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Toomanyyearskodakblack#19 February 2024. According to policy, contributions by blocked editors can be reverted without justification. In this instance, the forms were appropriately relocated to Election Commission of Pakistan#General election forms, resulting in a redirect. There seems to be a concerted effort by these individuals to impede my editing. They file frivolous ANIs daily in hopes that if they persist, an admin will block me, thereby eliminating opposition. It appears this IP is connected to the blocked editor. This ANI warrants immediate closure, and the IP should be blocked. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Sheriff, while an editor may revert edits of a banned editor, per WP:BRV, the same also notes that 1) they are not required to be reverted, and 2) once non-banned editors (such as Wiki.h0lic) revert, WP:BRV's 3RR exception no longer applies, as you're no longer reverting a banned editor, but an editor in good standing. If the articles should be BLAR'd, I expect consensus will bear that out.

  That said, IP, I note that you have no other edits except to the disputed page and this noticeboard. I can understand Sheriff's assumption that you are connected with the blocked user. Have you done any other editing on Wikipedia? EducatedRedneck (talk) 19:29, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Brutfyrt7

Brutfyrt7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Completely incoherent LLM-generated nonsense, not responding to warnings. Seems like a CIR issue. WindTempos ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

"[..] Without further context, it's difficult to provide a precise explanation."

Lol this person really out here harassing ChatGPT for content, bizarre. – 2804:F14:809E:DF01:EDAA:C4D:F14:BCC4 (talk) 21:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely. I just came across this too. They're creating AI-generated junk at an alarming rate. I was trying to type a warning when I edit-conflicted with WindTempos' ANI-notification, but to be honest they've had warnings enough. Elemimele (talk) 22:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

They seem to have stopped (thankfully), and all their edits have been reverted -- but I would support a preventative block in case they decide to continue later. --JBL (talk) 22:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Actually, I was curious and looked a bit earlier, and there was another account doing exactly the same thing (Segristercss):
  - Special:Diff/1215389904: "[..]and without further context or details, it's challenging to provide specific information about this person."
  Then I looked further back and there was another one, already blocked, doing the same thing (Segrysuw):
  - Special:Diff/1215385790: "[..]Without more specific information, it's challenging to provide details about a person named Derek Collins."
  So it might be worth it having a checkuser give them a look. – 2804:F14:809E:DF01:EDAA:C4D:F14:BCC4 (talk) 22:09, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Good spot, and that's not the extent of it. Ogdyrtersf11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has just popped up and continued with the same behaviour. WindTempos ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:15, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Bbb23 has gotten all the ones named here so far (thank you!). --JBL (talk) 22:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I've blocked all three as socks. If there's more, someone ping me, please.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Bbb23: The earliest recent account (and only other not mentioned) I found was Antonfirtsw1, about 1 hour 50 ago, clearly AI generated content too, though no "without further context" in those edits.

  – 2804:F14:809E:DF01:EDAA:C4D:F14:BCC4 (talk) 22:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks IP: blocked. I'm not going to fuss about the tagging.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• FWIW, I ran some checks. The data for these accounts is consistent with them belonging to the same operator, but it's really strange overall. I didn't see any other accounts (which doesn't necessarily mean that they don't exist). Spicy (talk) 03:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

IP announces intention to create multiple accounts and edit war. How to proceed?

On the page Chess piece relative value an IP user has repeatedly inserted content by a non-credible source (a random youtuber with no chess credentials using a naive valuation system). If I revert again it would violate 3RR but it clearly does not belong in the article.

More concerning however are the edit summaries, indicating a determination to continue edit warring and to abusively create multiple accounts to do so. See [209] and [210]. These edit summaries are completely unacceptable and grounds for blocking in their own right. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 23:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I've added that page to my watchlist and rolled back the edit in question. Regards,   Aloha27  talk  23:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP and protected the article. 331dot (talk) 23:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Inappropriate reverts of many pages by Amigao

This user keeps reverting this official emblem Chinese government officially use with an unofficial one in many pages I have changed.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Coddlebean (talk • contribs) 03:33, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Did you notify this user that you were filing an ANI report, @Coddlebean? I've done the courtesy of notifying them since you did not. lizthegrey (talk) 04:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe its too late at night for me to see it... But what is the difference between the two emblems? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

this is the official emblem Chinese government use, see [211] Coddlebean (talk) 04:40, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I need some help with this Spot the difference game, what is the difference between the one you just linked and the other one? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:43, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

It's the same emblem. Both are valid representations. The png is a 3D-rendered plasticky-looking thing that is found on an official government website (but its still a valid representation) and the other one is a nicely drawn svg with designs according to Chinese law, and is consistent with Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Consideration of image download size (the file is significantly smaller).—Alalch E. 04:47, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Not much difference, but that's not the version used by the government. Coddlebean (talk) 04:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

One has more shadowing on the ribbon and light reflection on the wreath EvergreenFir (talk) 04:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

In addition, the national emblems of most countries used on Wikipedia are the official versions used by their governments. I think China's should also be consistent with them. Coddlebean (talk) 04:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

This is the same emblem. The difference is technical. It doesn't matter which file is found on the government website. A file does not define what the emblem is. The emblem is a design. —Alalch E. 04:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Constant violation of WP:UNCIVIL by User:MSport1005

The issue arises with this edit summary User:MSport1005 left on the Red Bull Junior Team article, where they used mild profanity to make their point. As I had seen WP:UNCIVIL edit summaries from this editor in the recent past here and here, I warned them about their conduct on their talk page. The user's response was then to delete my message, which in itself is fine as we don't control what people do with their talk pages, but they then claimed my regular warning was "an abuse of authority".

Concerned about how this user might address other users as a result of this response, it led me to look at this user's longer-term history, and – whilst there is no denying that all users, myself included, succumb to frustration every now and then – it is clear that they have a serious problem with addressing fellow users in a respectful and professional manner, having consistently displayed systematic disregard for their fellow editors throughout their four-year editing tenure. Before I present evidence, this edit summary proves the editor understands what constitutes an appropriate edit summary, whilst this one shows that their removal of my talk page message was hypocritical. I shall break offending summaries down into sub-classes:

• Attacking a user or insulting a user's intelligence instead of respectfully approaching them on their talk page: swearing at an IP / swearing at a user & accusing them of not being able to read / berating an editor without consulting on their talk page / mild profanity / "what part of (...) don't you understand" / accusing an editor of being blind / "what are you doing" / "maybe you should X before Y" / "what are you doing" / "jesus christ can you learn how to read" / "stop acting like a child" / labelling an editor 'annoying' / telling an editor to 'grow up' / warning an editor of behaviour through edit summary and not talk page / accusing an editor of being unable to read / accusing an editor of being unable to read / warning an editor of behaviour through edit summary and not talk page and "learn the meaning of the word 'consensus'" / "what is this guy doing" / "Do you not know how to read" / taking issue with an editor but not on their talk page / "open your eyes and read..." / "Also learn how to read" / "what are you doing?" / "I literally listed it for you. Enough." / "for the love of god WHEN WILL YOU STOP" / "are you unable to read?" / expecting an English Wiki editor to understand Italian / "are you two not able to read basic edit summaries or what" / talking down an editor by saying "R-E-A-D." / "Learn how to read basic statements" / talking down an editor by saying "It's called English." / taking issue with an editor but not on their talk page / "do you know the meaning of 'could'" / talking down to an editor by saying "DO YOUR RESEARCH." / accusing an editor of insanity / taking issue with an editor but not on their talk page / warning an editor of behaviour through edit summary and not talk page / "Use your freaking eyes and read." / "use your brain" / "Always the same guy (...) this is getting silly" / "You enjoy edit wars (...) stop being so problematic" / "Who tf is "Felipe" Albuquerque? Jesus christ." / "For the billionth freaking time" / caps lock response to a user's mistake / talking down to an editor by saying "Read. The. Note.".

• Unnecessarily expressing annoyance unconstructively, or general threats where the appropriate response is to approach the editor/s involved on their talk page or use the article talk page: "how many times does this have to be explained" / "It's not that hard." / "How has this stood for ten days?" / "I wasn't born yesterday" / "good grief, this is so poorly written..." / "some people will always fail to read" / "for the hundredth time" / "For the thousandth time" / "Seriously? Do I have to revert this again?" / "Who the hell is adding this stuff?" / "Who tf removed this?" / "seriously please do better" / "Are people blind? Jesus christ." / profanity / "Who tf is editing this?" / "Getting tired of always having to correct these things." / "Seriously... What. Is. This." / "Why tf (...) WHO IS EDITING THIS" / "god I hate edit conflicts" / "If anyone X they'll be Y" / "This list is so full of mistakes, jesus christ." / "How did people manage to misspell this SIX times?!" / "This level of sourcing is frankly pathetic." / "Why's this so full of mistakes?" / "I genuinely can't believe this has stood for so long" / "Come on, this is silly." / "Clearly whoever created this table didn't feel like putting in any effort" / "You guys really need to learn to make proper articles. Or at least create them as drafts. This is shocking." / "Pay more attention, jesus christ."

• Separate note for updating points tables, as these are time-consuming and tedious to work on which can easily lead to mistakes, so berating people is more out of order than usual: 1 / 2 / 3

Any one of these edit summaries on their own or a handful spread across multiple years could be reasonably put down to situational stress, but this amount of uncivil behaviour over multiple years is unwarranted – and cannot simply be described as "mild annoyance" as written by the user in their edit summary response to my warning. They have been an editor long enough to know what is and what is not considered appropriate.

Finally, the editor in question was involved in this discussion two years ago where they were warned by User:Tvx1 to "Cut your arrogant attitude here please. You're not going to achieve anything by treating other editors like that." User:MSport1005 apologised for their actions, both an admission of their behaviour and displaying an understanding that this approach is not appropriate – therefore meaning that the editor continued to make the above edit summaries knowing their behaviour is inappropriate. MSportWiki (talk) 04:51, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I know it's not the issue at hand but I have to ask anyway: MSportWiki and MSport1005...what's going on with how similar your usernames are? City of Silver 05:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)