Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
Start a new discussion

Topic Ban Review (2nd Attempt)

Hi, the original thread got archived, so for convenience I've copied the postings from the original thread to here again. Hopefully that's the right thing to do.
Cailil is really busy in real life and so has recommended that I ask here for someone to do the review. The previous review can be found here. I know it takes time to do a review, so thank you in advance. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 10:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

This isn't about "someone" doing a review. You're now asking the community to do a review. First: you'll need to link to the discussion that led to the topic ban. You'll need to link to where you were notified that the topic ban was in effect. You'll need to educate us as to what you've been doing in the meantime - i.e. showing that you've been able to edit positively outside the area of the topic without any squabbles. Finally, you need to show us your way forward: if permitted back into that topic area, how will you act? What will you do to avoid the behaviours that led to the topic ban. Remember that if the community lessens the topic ban and you go back to the same issues, the next step is not a re-imposition of the topic ban, it's usually a block - after all, a TBAN's role is to be that "last chance before an indef" the panda ɛˢˡ” 10:41, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

FYI, some background; this stems from Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive626#User:LevenBoy which led to the issue being added to general sanctions; the page listing topic bans etc. is at Wikipedia:General sanctions/British Isles Probation Log. HighKing was topic-banned in August 2011, it was lifted in June 2012, and then re-imposed in June 2013. HighKing has not been a prolific editor since then, but I can see no actual violation of the topic ban (i.e. adding/removing "British Isles" in articlespace), although he has been active on the talkpages of British Isles and some others as regards naming disputes. Black Kite (talk) 11:04, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The fact that he was let back in and did it again doesn't give me the warm fuzzies the panda ɛˢˡ” 15:16, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• HighKing has noted my extremely busy RL situation (this wont change in the short term) since this is a community sanction the community can overturn/change the topic ban if there is a consensus to do so. In the past I've been concerned more that there is no fundamental change in HK's behaviour from gnoming in British & Irish topic areas, most notably but not limited to naming disputes related to British-Irish history or historical figures or flora and fauna articles, rather than there being an actual breach of the topic ban. From my point of view as this is an indefinite topic ban there needs to be (as EatsShootsAndLeaves points out) evidence of positive attitudinal change and development of a different/productive way of editing. From my point of view showing the community *only* that ban has not been broken proves that the ban works not that it should be lifted--Cailil ^talk 18:15, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

As noted above, this Topic Ban is specifically in relation to editing in relation to the term "British Isles". From discusions with Cailil, we agreed that the disruptive behaviour was rooted in a couple of habits that ultimately led to squabbles and disruption - and although primarily with a banned sock, it was pointed out (and ultimately I recognized and accepted) that my behaviour was the "trigger" for the sock to engage. Regardless of the right/wrong of each individual situation, ultimately my editing was the common factor, and therefore something needed to change. Since that time, it is true that I've not been as prolific. Partly because my previous "gnoming" in these areas (one of the areas that needed addressing) accounted for a high proportion of my editing, and partly because of changes in real-life. Since the Topic Ban I've created a couple of articles - Sir Fineen O'Driscoll and Coppingers Court, one of the areas I was told I should concentrate on rather than gnoming. I believe I understand which of my editing habits were problematic in the past, and I won't be revisiting those habits in the future. Thanks for taking the time. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 21:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Just to address Cailil's point above - it should be seen that there has been evidence of positive attitudinal change and development, specifically research and creation of articles, and avoiding gnoming. To address Black Kite - Cailil specifically stated that discussions on any issues was still fine and my Topic Ban did not forbid any discussions on any topics. I was never a confrontational editor to begin with, and I always discussed changes and been courteous to those that engaged on various topics. I think its fair to say that the deep-rooted issue was my insistence on an exact definition of "British Isles" in articles, with references to show that it was being used within the references. Other areas, involving an "exact defintion and usage", were also highlighted by Cailil even though these topics did not fall under the Topic Ban, but I understood what was being said. I don't believe there's any need for the Topic Ban to remain in place any longer as I've shown I understand the reasons why it was in place, and I've addressed those editing habits at the root of the problem. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 12:40, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• The fact that it fell off with only dissenting opinion meant the request failed. No need to repost the panda ₯’ 14:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

It isn't clear to me that there were only dissenting opinions, apologies for reposting if that is the case. I saw that editors had posted some observations and questions, and it seemed to me that it "fell off" due to a lack of activity. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 17:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support lifting of topic ban. I'm impressed that you've not gone the sock/evasion route & have thus respected your top ban. If the community chooses to lift the TB, I would recommend less attention to the topic-in-question, in future. I don't wann seeya getting blocked or worst. :) GoodDay (talk) 15:40, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you GoodDay. As I've said above, I believe I've addressed the behaviour that was at the root of the problem, and have shown to the community that I've learned. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 17:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I've confidence in you :) GoodDay (talk) 17:07, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support lifting with the appropriate ROPE. Happy to give a second or third chance. Drmies (talk) 19:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Drmies - I assume ROPE is some further probation period? Is there somewhere you can point me? -- HighKing⁺⁺ 11:34, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

HighKing, see WP:ROPE. It's not so much a rope as it is a leash... Drmies (talk) 18:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support lifting -- He has shown respect for the sanctions. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 09:30, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• No Support A leopard never changes its spots. Highking has been banned in the past and as soon as a ban is lifted returns to previous behaviour. To recount that Highking was never sanctioned for sockpuppetry while operating under his 2nd account - User:Popaice. No support. Dubs boy (talk) 17:16, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose As Calil states, a lack of problematic editing since simply proves that the topic ban works. My experience from working on problematic areas affected by nationalist POV is that editors do not change; topic bans expire and the same editing patterns re-emerge. HighKing can be a productive editor in other areas of Wikipedia if they wish, but I don't believe allowing them to return to the whole "British Isles" combat arena would be a productive outcome. Number 57 10:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

On that basis, is it true to say that you wouldn't agree to a Topic Ban ever being overturned? Harsh. No chance then for an editor to show they have the ability to learn from mistakes, or show that they've recognized their problematic behaviour? -- HighKing⁺⁺ 10:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

In areas with bad POV problems like this, I think lifetime topic bans are the most effective way of cleaning them up. As I alluded to above, I have edited around the edges of another area with some awful issues, and I haven't seen topic ban work as a temporary solution - the problematic editors return when it expires with exactly the same viewpoint - sometimes they are more subtle in their POV after their ban, but the POV remains. The issue for me is the desire to return to a topic area in which the banned editors clearly have a strong POV, and I don't believe it is a positive move to allow this. Number 57 10:24, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Some background: I edited a lot of articles that in my opinion (at the time), used the term "British Isles" incorrectly. We attempted to create rules for usage and formed WP:BISE and discussed edits among interested editors. That initiative eventually failed, and led to the discovery of a large sock farm (still active today). I wasn't ever editing from a "nationalistic" point of view, but from a (misguided) attempt to enforce a standard definition across lots of articles. Cailil correctly pointed this out (took a while for me to grasp, but I see it now), and also pointed out that this was the root of problems caused by gnoming in other areas. Enforcing definitions (especially of controversial terms) where definitions are not "exact" in the real world, was the problem. I don't believe the Topic Ban is serving any useful purpose any longer - it is "working" not because it is in effect, but because I've learned and cut out the problematic behaviour (and learned too). I don't believe any editor would say I'm a POV warrior (exceptions made for the sock farm obviously), or that I even have strong nationalistic POVs. It's less of a desire to "return" to a topic area, and more of a desire to rejoin the community as a fully-fledged and trusted editor, without a shadow of a Topic Ban hanging over my edits, and being able to show that editors do learn, and do change for the good. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 10:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Ha! This made me laugh. In truth, Highking systematically went page to page removing the term "British Isles" and at an unreplicable speed. I think a history of edit warring and sockpuppetry are reasons enough to decline this request.Dubs boy (talk) 21:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. If this editor had chosen to edit in an other way then things would be different, however on the editor's own admission, editing has just been reduced so things are not different. It sounds like the editor is mainly interested in editing in the problematic way. Maybe it would help if the editor indicated the kind of constructive edits that he wishes to make but cannot due to the topic ban. Op47 (talk) 22:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Op47 - just in the interests of transparency and completeness, No, that's not what I said. Yes, my editting has been reduced, but I stated that it is mainly due to cutting out the problematic "gnoming", and partially because I'm not as active as I was before. You appear to attribute the "reduction" as involuntary, and therefore nothing has changed. Not true. 80+% of the reduction is my choice, because the gnoming is the underlying problem. And in terms of "different" editting patterns - I have also researched and created a couple of new articles and working on another. But you've asked one important question - "what kind of constructive edits I wish to make but cannot due to the Topic Ban". I'm not going to blow smoke. The honest answer ... I've nothing in mind. Keeping the Topic Ban in place wouldn't affect my editing .... but would and does affect my "standing" in the community. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 09:22, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - If the topic ban is lifted simply for "time served" reasons, HighKing will likely return to the same behavior that led to the topic ban in the first place. This, in turn, will attract more disruptive socking to counter his edits. Déjà vu. I think that HighKing should not be allowed any wiggle room to muck about with the "British Isles" phrase at all, ever, as it will only lead to disruption (major headaches). The restriction is not an albatross around his neck. It is a safeguard against disruption. I have no doubt that the stalkers that watch his every edit will come out of the woodwork the second the restriction was lifted and he made a "BI" edit. Not worth the trouble. Doc talk 09:50, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Doc - to be honest, I kinda agree with you. The only point I would highlight is that I'm being heavily penalized (in my opinion) for the actions (past and potential future) of the sock (who's already attempting to disrupt this discussion). I recognize that the community can't afford to invest the time, energy and resources into every petty event, and I also recognize that the community has no appetite for anything to do with the phrase "British Isles", regardless of whether any edits are actually right or wrong. As you say, and I agree, the disruption isn't worth it. You say I'm likely to return to the same behaviour. I'm saying the opposite and I'm asking the community to trust me. You say it is not an albatross around my neck. Well .. I think it is because it's a sign that the community doesn't trust that I can behave appropriately. And it's going to be impossible for me to demonstrate that the leaf has been turned without a little trust from the community. I don't know what more I can do. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 11:06, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello :) I have to agree with Cailil above when he says "...showing the community *only* that ban has not been broken proves that the ban works not that it should be lifted". I see no reason to remove the ban because I know the background on this. It's not a "penalty" on you. It's there to "prevent" disruption, and it should remain in place to prevent disruption at large. Nothing personal. Doc talk 11:22, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi :-) I don't get that. How can it *not* be viewed as personal? It's a Topic Ban on me? I've said above that I recognize fully (and hopefully articulated the fact that I recognize fully) the behaviour that causes the problem. I'm asking that the community trusts me enough to lift the Topic Ban. You don't agree ... ergo you don't trust me. Kinda hard not to see it as personal.... I'm not whining or making excuses or blaming the sock or ranting. But I really don't see how the Topic Ban will ever be lifted at this rate ... which translates into the fact that I can never rejoin the trusted editors who operate without a Topic Ban. Victory to socking? Taking your logic one step further, if this Topic Ban extended to all editors, then it wouldn't be personal. But it doesn't. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 11:54, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Oppose I was around when this whole thing started(well before the sanction were in place). The wording of the ban "is topic banned from editing in relation to the term 'British Isles' broadly construed." seems reasonable considering this user was prolific in this content dispute. I think this ban has kept this user out of trouble. I think lifting the ban would be about the same as an invitation to start editing in this area which I think is a bad idea.

While I appreciate that this user has respected the ban I also think that this user returning to this topic would result in more trouble. I don't think it hangs over him like a cloud, we don't have a big banner on his userpage or anything. The only thing this ban is doing is keeping him out of an area that was problematic for him before. Chillum 14:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support in part because the community seems increasingly more concerned about avoiding any 'disturbance in the force' than in creating content. It is absurd to contend that an editor cannot change. In this case any repetition would rapidly result in the ban being reimposed, possibly with greater sanction. When I started editing Wikipedia there would have been no question about time served being sufficient in this case. We are now being over precious. I speak here as a veteran on those disputes having to handle socks and ill will from both sides so I know the editors concerned through long practice. We also allowed GoodDay to edit again and he was as if not more disruptive on this issue. If it helps I'll happily agree to mentor (or monitor) his behaviour as I attempted to do for GoodDay. I'm semi-retired from Wikipedia in the main because I think it has shifted from using behaviour as an enabling constraint to one where for some admins its a governing constraint which they see as the primary purpose of the encyclopaedia as a whole. So the time I used to put in to monitoring controversial articles is available ----Snowded ^TALK 02:52, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose This editor cannot change. Every time the ban is lifted, the editor returns to his former behavior. Too risky. 1999sportsfan talk to me 09:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Question

Is the problem the Topic, or my previous behaviour? I've stated I've no intention of ever returning to my previous behaviour. I've also articulated my understanding of what the problem was, and I've demonstrated that I can edit without gnoming while still being productive, and seen out the agreed review period without any violation. I'm getting the distinct impression from Chillum and Doc that the Topic Ban isn't really anything to do with my behaviour. Is there an elephant in the room? Nobody here is stating that they believe I'll return to my previous behaviour... but that the Topic Ban should still remain in place as it doesn't cause me any negative impact. I disagree, hence this request. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 19:09, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying that you want the ban lifted so that you can continue to not edit in the area the topic ban prohibits you from editing? If that is the case then the ban is of no force or effect and you can just ignore it.

There is no banner on your user page, nothing to stigmatize you in regards to this ban. It might as well not exist if you are choosing not to edit in the whole "British Isles" area.

Unless you actually want to edit the subject of "British Isles" again then there is little point in removing the ban. It is the possibility of you returning to editing "British Isles" again that I object to.

You asking for this ban to be removed is essentially you asking for permission to edit the subject of "British Isles". I don't think that is a good idea. Chillum 14:34, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Your response pretty much sums up the problem. You're saying that the problem is editting the term "British Isles" - as far as I know, the Topic Ban is to address behaviour, not "protect" a term from being editted. I've summed up before above, but here's another attempt. Previously, I had maintained that the term was incorrectly used in some articles, and I had tried to nail down a definition, and nail down guidelines as to usage (the WP:BISE). That had failed (start of sock problems) but I continued to implement the half-agreed rules anyway - resulting in more disruption (height of sock problem). The problem was described that I was engaged in systematic editting of articles containing the term, and my edits resulting in the removal of the term without proper referencing. When my edits were scrutinized, most of my edits were correct. But - and this is the problem and the root of the behaviour issues - some were not and some were marginal. I think the marginal calls were the ones that gave me my Aha moment, and I started to understand the issue. In real-life, there isn't a single definition and it is often used loosely, and trying to apply a straight and narrow definition is always going to cause problems. I'm asking for the Topic Ban to be lifted because I've learned the lesson, articulated what lesson I've learned, addressed the problematic behaviour and demonstrated that I can behave without resorting to wiki-gnoming or any other of the behaviours that led to the Topic Ban. So yes, removing the Topic Ban would leave the way free for me to edit any topic including "British Isles". Just like every other trusted member of the community. I'm trusted with every other Topic. Bear in mind as I've stated above, I've no intention of seeking out any such edits involving British Isles, or resorting to any of the previous problematic behaviour. I won't seek out articles containing the term as I did previously, I'll simply edit normally as I've been doing. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 11:36, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Dive into Highkings contributions history, pick any day and you'll find some instance of random IMOS application. Take 21st Feb 2013 as an example. Highking applied IMOS across 36 different articles and at 1 point applied IMOS across 20 pages in 16 minutes! Highking was not reading the articles nor was he attempting to find a context for the edit. It was mud slinging and seeing what sticks. How would he be able to gauge if an edit is correct if he doesn't even read the article? Take away the ban and his mask will slip. And a user with a history of socking is bound to have another sock account still active.Dubs boy (talk) 19:56, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Since when has this guy Murray been the arbiter of what can, and can't appear on these pages? He keeps reverting the above comment. He and his colleague Highking are both long term edit warriors. They revert a change and if its reverted back they leave it a while then try again. See Murray's activity on the War Memorial Gardens article for example. Neil Edgar (talk) 21:13, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

It seems that in general, there's more regular community members saying that the ban should be lifted than not. But the general concern appears to be that *if* I edit (on "British Isles"), *and* there's disruption (unspecificed), *then* that's a situation to avoid. So as a compromise, can you please comment on the proposal below as a step to ease concerns please. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 11:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

Following on from various discussions, the following proposal was suggested by Doc: "trial or "probationary" period suspending the topic ban would be more realistic than a complete removal of the ban, FWIW. If no disruption occurs as a result of the ban being lifted during that specified amount of time (like 6 months minimum), we go from there." I'm agreeable to such "probationary" period. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 11:10, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Support - IMHO, your topic-ban should be lifted. But, seeing as there's no consensus for that, a 6-month probation is acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

There was just barely a consensus to lift the Ban, but I'd rather address the concerns properly. Thanks again GoodDay. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 18:28, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. The editor seems to have an agenda which cannot be fulfilled as a result of the present ban. I suspect that if the ban were lifted the situation would revert to how it was previously. Neil Edgar (talk) 13:46, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Oppose Per what I have said above. This proposal is not substantially different since there are no concerns about disruption while the ban has been in place. The ban is doing its job. Chillum 01:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Any suggestions as to what you'd like to see in the proposal? It would also be helpful if you articulated what disruption you believe I played a part in. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 16:12, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Oppose The topic ban works, and it concerns me that the editor is so keen to return to an area where they created many problems previously. Number 57 17:36, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

EEng and edit warring

I'm a minimal party to this, so I shouldn't issue a block. EEng has been engaged in an edit war and has ownership issues with Phineas Gage. He has greatly expanded the article to where it is a GA candidate. Six editors, ChrisGualtieri, Chiswick Chap, Johnuniq, Tryptofish, Magioladitis and I have said it is time to move on and for EEng to stop (See Talk:Phineas Gage). EEng then went and reverted for 4th time in the past 48 hours. Others editors have had their edits reverted by EEng. This has already been the subject of an ANI discussion that went nowhere. He has also been the subject of a disruptive editing this past month. EEng also resorts to name calling and diatribes. Such as name calling in the two previous discussions at ANI and a recent diatribe on how all the above editors are "hit and run" editors. Issues range from content to style. EEng's style is, as Dicklyon put it (note EEng's style in the diff), "There's no reason for this article to be so excessively idiosyncratic in style". EEng reverted Dicklyon for supporting his fellow "Gnomes and MOS Nazis".

I feel a short-term block is in order unless the disruptive editing and rudeness doesn't stop. I don't want to see EEng topic banned from the article. He is a major contributor and co-author of the only scholarly publications on Phineas Gage. His input is needed in order for the article to become a GA. Bgwhite (talk) 07:27, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• It's an awkward situation because EEng is very skilled and has done a lot of good things, but this may be a case where a person gets used to being right, and is unable to make allowances for others. @EEng: Suppose we are all wrong—what should you do about that? Should you revert us because we can't argue as eloquently as you? Should you persist until we go away because we are obviously misguided? Sorry, but those approaches won't be successful. Please find a way of rationalizing all this in your mind as being our fault, and move on to something else. Johnuniq (talk) 07:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• I protected it for 24 hours, after which I began looking at the history page to see whose edit was the most recent. If this edit be at all typical, we have substantial violations of WP:CITEVAR going on, among other things — people attempting to take the article away from the standardised citation style used by its major author. Let me remind you that not all citation standards use the {{ndash}}, among other things (example), and that the placement of {{shy}} permits the article to be formatted like a professional print publication. In real life, when amateurs tell professionals that they're right and that the professionals are wrong, without solid factual evidence, they get ignored and forced out of the way if necessary. Kindly step aside and stop preventing this professional from permitting this article to be written to a professional standard. Nyttend (talk) 12:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Spectators should know that this is almost entirely about the preferences of certain editors for one form of markup over another -- in most cases, not even affecting the final appearance of the page! -- and who think WP is improved by their going around forcing all articles to conform -- for example, replacing {{ndash}} and {{mdash}} with literals — and – because "that's what editors expect to see" or "templates slow down the servers", which of course is nonsense. Such edits carry blithe edit summaries like "required by MOS" when, of course, MOS says no such thing. (And, of course, it's almost impossible to distinguish — from – from a regular hyphen - when editing.)

This is just the latest in the longrunning campaign, by ChrisGualtieri and others, to teach me a lesson about submitting to the will of the borg. Here's what John Vandenberg had to say about this a year ago: [1]

ChrisGualtieri, you say "someone, clearly not me, needs to reach out and assist in this matter so that this article" - had you and others tried to do so in a peaceful and thoughtful way, you would have more success I am sure. I have had no troubles when I have suggested improvements that bring the article syntax towards greater MOS compliance .. Others have also had successes, large and small, esp. Mirokado. Sometimes two editors need to revert EEng and discuss the issue, after which I have always found him able to accept the desired changes. Not everyone has had the same success, and they cite WP:OWN concerns, but in many of these cases (not all) they have acted like bulls running through this china-shop, doing mass-/automated-'cleanups', without first discussing the issue on the talk page, or doing so in an aggressive fait accompli manner. John Vandenberg ^(chat)

(Bold added by me.) This latest kerfuffle is just more of the same of that.

EEng (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• This EEng guy, sheesh. Hard to fathom sometimes. Anyone might think he had a metal rod stuck in his head. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

:) Here's a joke: Phineas Gage runs into a bar... EEng (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

... unlike: EEng runs into a block... Martinevans123 (talk) 13:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• My issue began when EEng added 487 Template:Shys to the article that did not render one active use. Putting shy and nbsp templates into invisible comments is completely useless. Cite templates should not be using Hyphen and nbsp templates as Bgwhite pointed out. EEng tries to make eloquent arguments, but has repeatedly been unable to comprehend the basic "Shy" template function. The article as I originally found it had every reference broken with a "false referencing" system that is the most complex and inane system I've ever seen. And I'm not just saying that, EEng called it a "hack of hacks", but EEng had effectively modified the appearance of the page to what looks good on his computer. I had less then 20 characters (not words) across the screen when it began. The page was effectively unreadable. While much has been done to improve it. Also... What CITEVAR issue? The biggest change I see is the Macmillan source (one of many) being cited with the year of its publication in the text; it is also the one with the biggest error that EEng is violently opposed to highlighting. Specifically, the one where Macmillan gives the wrong information and says there is a second source that apparently (according to EEng) doesn't exist. There is definitely a content and COI issue here at play, but BGwhite's concern over edit warring and EEng's name calling should be examined. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• When multiple papers by the same author are cited, it's common to add the year of publication e.g.

Jones (1998) discovered this, confirming it in Jones (2001), and giving further data in Jones (2002).

-- because it looks stupid to write

Jones discovered this, confirming it in Jones, and giving further data in Jones.

This is an accepted style on WP, and that you think there's something wrong with it is typical of everything that's happened in the last year.

• My "hack of all hacks" was an experiment to see if existing < ref> machinery could be tricked into putting citations in alphabetical order by author name. I spent considerable time trying to get other editors interested in finding a better way to do it, and I finally abandoned it as too unwieldy. For a year you've been trying to make it look like this some evil thing I did, claiming that "it seems that EEng made the article deliberately difficult to edit."

My discussions with other editors about how I planned to keep others from editing the article by making the markup extremely complicated

Discussion with anther editor regarding the ref formats and figure #s [2] (section Extensively revised): "There are several technical innovations which I am not completely happy with, but I hope others might come along and offer better ways to achieve the same results ... The article is on 160 watchlists and as I said before, I'm hoping someone might be inspired to invent/discover a cleaner way to do these things." Request at Village Pump for better ways to alphabetize refs [3] (sectionControlling order of reflist): "Nasty hack though this technique is I actually feel its advantages outweigh its drawbacks and I'd like to take it live in the article, with the hope that someday a purpose-built facility will become available to make the hack unnecessary. There's only one other editor at Talk:Phineas Gage who's willing to engage this kind of technical issue and I'd be most happy if you'd look over the implementation (in my sandbox) in detail and explore the question with us." Attempts to get other editors to participate [4] "For the moment there's one other editor who engages at all regarding this article, and I'd very much like there to be more" [5] "I'm wondering if you want to work on formatting/cites/technical stuff only (and fine if that's true -- this has been really helpful) or whether you'd like to engage on content as well. I'm kind of tired of being the only editor who actively engages the sources, and then gets accused of ownership!" [6] "I could really use an unbiased eye to comment ... I keep trying to get others involved but can't."

• As for the rest, I refer again to John Vandenberg from last spring ([7], bolding added):

from what I have seen it is User:ChrisGualtieri who is regularly misusing sources, making a mess of both article and the discussion page in the process of the Tendentious editing. While labeling someone a troll is not OK, neither is Chris' misuse of sources, and Chris' bull-in-china-shop approach to 'fixing' this article, which has been going on for months. ... John Vandenberg ^(chat)

EEng (talk) 17:44, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• I thought Phineas Gage was a delisted FA, I'd never realised it had never got there in the first place. Having a done a few edits on it, just from the referencing and prose in the bits I looked at seems it ought to be possible to get up there. I see last year it had an abandoned GA review which seems to have broken down over stability issues. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Off-topic, but somebody once asked at the Graphics workshop, when I was active there, if we could enhance one of the images, so that the words on the bar could be read. I think we were unable to help much, because the detail wasn't there. Begoon ^talk 03:39, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• I've been involved in trying to get editors to solve these disputes for a long time. The problems are not entirely one-sided, in that editors on both "sides" of the dispute have a history of asking for help with dispute resolution, then suddenly losing interest when the resolution process starts to look serious: see, for example Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Phineas Gage.
• There is a comment above that tells the editors who have expressed concern about the situation to "step aside and stop preventing this professional from permitting this article to be written to a professional standard." That comment is not helpful. I'm an experienced Wikipedia editor, and if we are suddenly engaging in "professional" editing, I'd like to know when I'm going to get my paycheck. Until that time, I would suggest that all editors who come to a page in good faith are entitled to be listened to, without being told summarily to step aside.
• About edit warring, EEng was already at 3RR when I reminded him at his talk page: [8]. His page edit subsequent to that time, [9], is, despite the edit summary, in part a 4th revert.
• This dispute is partly about formatting, but also about writing style and how to balance sources, some of which EEng coauthored in real life. The talk page discussion shows numerous editors expressing thoughtful comments, with EEng a minority of one, and not persuading anybody. Even allowing for some stubbornness on both "sides", he is unilaterally impeding progress towards making the page a GA.
• A this point, I would see a block for anything other than 3RR as punitive, rather than preventative, and I doubt that EEng's opinion of his role at the page would change following the block. I share Johnuniq's concern about preventing EEng from making any contributions to a page where he truly does bring expertise about the subject matter.
• It seems to me that the best action would be to topic-ban EEng indefinitely from editing Phineas Gage, but continuing to allow him to edit Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Disappointed to see EEng here again; I think we may need a block at this point. I take John Vandenberg's point with a pinch of salt, as it contains zero diffs. If the problem was one caused by "mass-/automated-'cleanups'" we would not be here for the umpteenth time. This seems more like an OWN problem. Block or a topic ban? I don't know but I do know we cannot go on like this. --John (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I can't read all that. Who is interesting on working on the article? I don't mean who is interested in working on how template xyz displays some picture or transmits some bit of mysterious data to some other template, but who is interested in working on the article to provide information about the subject to a reader? If it is just EEng, you should leave him alone to get on with it and formatting be blowed. If it is genuinely other people too, then EEng needs to lighten up a bit about the formatting (who cares if the line splits midway through supercalifragilisticexpialidocious if nobody else can make out where supercalifragilisticexpialidocious is in the text when editing because of all the templates?). That's it, if anybody wants me, I'll be cutting a baby in half to stop two women arguing over it. Belle (talk) 18:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

There is a significant group of editors who want in good faith to not only improve the page, but to make it a GA. This isn't a question of telling us to leave him alone, but it is a question of EEng needing to lighten up. (No babies were harmed in the posting of this reply.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I would include myself in the group who would like to help bring this article to GA but have been turned away by EEng's OWN and BATTLE behaviour. I would also encourage anyone interested in helping out here to read the last discussion here on this editor's conduct, which was archived without resolution a few weeks ago. I think we do need to take some sort of collective action here. --John (talk) 19:34, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Can we agree on a topic ban? I, for one, support an indefinite topic ban at Phineas Gage, while allowing continued editing at Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
• I would be happy to settle for a topic ban rather than a block. --John (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Question: Tryptofish, you don't seem to have made any response to EEng's explanation for the template formatting - that he was attempting to get "citations in alphabetical order by author name". I'm not saying that's the only problem, nor that his approach to that problem was the best one. But it seems like a reasonable explanation for what he saw as good faith improvements to the article. Do you except that explanation or not? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

It may explain one or two edits, but not the larger issues here. If one goes over the talk page history, for example Talk:Phineas Gage/Archive 6#WP:BRD, the concerns are far more wide-ranging than that. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't arguing against that. I was searching for some admission of (at least some) good faith on the part of EEng. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Martinevans123, via the link given by EEng, the "citations in alphabetical order by author name" attempt was made over a year ago and before any of this mess started. Bgwhite (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I see. So it's not part of "this mess" at all? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:27, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Martinevans123 I don't believe it is part of this mess. But I may have missed something from the loooong talk conversations. Bgwhite (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've been AGF'ing for the longest time. Don't just look at Talk:Phineas Gage/Archive 6#WP:BRD, but also at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive829#Personal attacks and OWN violations. I'm hardly someone who is unsympathetic to him. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I know. The ongoing "discussions" you and EEng have had are the main reason I took that article off my watch list last year. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Then let's be very clear that I have not lacked for AGF. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• A topic ban for EEng and ChrisGualtieri I think are now in order, plus a minimal block for EEng for the latest round of edit warring. This is not just about styling, though placing 487 {{shy}} templates is extremely excessive. Arguments have also been over content and referencing. EEng and Chris are the most vocal. Taking both out of the equation would help any of the other editors get this to GA. Bgwhite (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Does EEng have any explanation for the 487 {{shy}} templates? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Martinevans123 If I understand correctly, EEng states MOS says you can use them (MOS:SHY), but says nothing on how many. If you want to consider style as part of the argument, I'd say judge for your self via this snapshot, before most of the mess started. Bgwhite (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

They look like aids to editing that might be dispensed with after a major article-wide edit had been completed. And invisible to the reader, of course. But I guess some other editors might find them troublesome. (In some future software release I suppose they might be part of user-definable edit skins). Martinevans123 (talk) 22:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Wee note. Another editor found them to be an issue, but I support EEng's use of them in captions and other tight places as per the Template's documentation. In our last discussion and EEng's last edits, he has resolved the vast majority of the issues. SHY appears to trigger on spelling check runs, but overall, they should remain as long as the perform a function. So the previous issue has actually been resolved, but getting to that point was a bit tougher than I would have liked. That's all. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:46, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• I would support a topic ban for both of them at Phineas Gage, but I oppose banning either of them from Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Tryptofish, no offense, but do not blame me or EEng when you caused the mediation to be rejected. That's right you (the filer) caused it to be rejected. EEng felt it was premature and I didn't even get a chance to voice myself. You may mean well, but you certainly have gotten your facts wrong here. I ask that you strike your above comment about that. EEng should not be blocked, there is no reason to block because it'd simply be punitive. ANI is not a place for an RFC/U and it most certainly is not going to help when 5+ people all want this at GA. Tryptofish, you supported much of my changes, I realize my changes were far from perfect - and I'll admit that I was blindsided by all the errors in Macmillan 2000. You know better than anyone else that I also want this article to be GA or FA. EEng reacted with hostility and I have been afraid to try and deal with it since. Sorry if I add my voice to the pile, but I spent 40 hours researching Gage and I tried to work with EEng - but I do not need to be abused. I won't stay in such editing environments. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:17, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually, EEng's being receptive and fixed all the issues I had and then some. I do not think any MOS issue actually remains now. EEng fixed all the issues before this came to ANI with this edit. Why was this brought to ANI anyways? WP:CIVIL? Recently, he's been tense, but not anything outright 'disruptive'. I'm confused. Anyone care to explain why this is open still? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:46, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Here's a recent sample edit. EEng has been fighting for years to keep his idiosyncratic formatting in this article. Use of {{shy}}, {{hyp}} and <p> is eccentric, disliked by other editors, and makes the article very difficult for others to edit. EEng has added this formatting many, many times and is currently at 4rr. He is arrogant and rude if challenged on his weird formatting and long-winded writing style, such that it is very difficult to work with him. Most people just walk away, which has reinforced EEng's feelings of ownership of the article. It's not viable to suggest we can go on like this. --John (talk) 05:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Chris, I feel a need to reply to what you said to me, although it also is becoming clear to me that nothing is going to come of this ANI thread. I can sympathize that you would want to respond to what I said (following what Bgwhite proposed, although subsequent talk separated my comment from his), but turning it back at me is a cheap shot, and I think you know it. Your diff simply shows that I withdrew the request, after seeing that no one besides me was willing to participate. I didn't cause you or anyone else to choose not to participate. You made that choice – and I remember diffs where you, first, came to me at my user talk to ask for my help and, then, were demanding dispute resolution and, later, turned tail when I started the mediation. Also, the reason given by Bgwhite was not related to the attempt at mediation. It was what he called your "most vocal" posture at the talk page. So my advice to you is to take notice of how Bgwhite, coming new to the page, perceived your conduct, and keep it in mind going forward, since undoubtedly this issue will crop up again. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Its interesting to look at the page statistics, EEng (talk · contribs) and ChrisGualtieri (talk · contribs) have between them contributed 81% of the article [10]. Although a couple of editors who've commented here pop in the number of edits, none of them have substantially contributed to the prose and do not appear in the top 10 contributors of text. Their sole contribution appears to be undoing EEng (talk · contribs)'s formatting style to substitute their own preference and its really for no benefit to the article. I dunno guys, there are plenty of really badly formatted articles out there but this isn't one of them. It may be idiosyncratic but it works and it works well - the article looks fantastic in WikiWand. I think some people are forgetting that wikipedia is first and foremost an exercise in writing an encyclopedia. So if your only interest is in formatting it "differently" I would suggest you find something better to do - like writing. BedsBookworm (talk) 12:14, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Bit of a red herring. If your only interest is in making fallacious observations at an administrators' board I would suggest you find something better to do - like writing. --John (talk) 13:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

And so we arrive at the nub of the matter

It's even sadder than you make it sound, BedsBookworm. This bunch isn't changing the (visible) formatting of the article to be more attractive to the reader or conformant to MOS -- for the most part they're changing the internal, invisible markup to other markup that does exactly the same thing.

Are {{shy}}, {{hyp}} and <p> unusual? Yes. So what? Why does everything have to look like what some self-satisfied roving enforcers are used to?

Are these forms really "disliked by other other editors"? It depends on the kind of editor. If you mean "disliked by editors who show no interest in an article other than to make the markup look they way they think it should look, and who, out of nowhere, arrive to assert their personal preferences as 'rules', apply their mindless scripts, then rush off to clutter the edit histories of the next thousand articles (having had zero effect on what the reader sees)", then I guess Yes.

Oh... except sometimes they do affect on what the reader sees. As explained here, there are places where double-newline doesn't create a paragraph break as it usually does, and <p> must be used instead. Yet here's a high-handed edit (edit summary in full: "no need") taking out <p> in the places where there is, in fact, a need -- and thereby breaking the formatting. Then someone else has to take time to fix it. [11]

So the best thing these activities achieve is nothing, but now and then they screw something up. It's like the old joke about selling at a loss but making it up on volume.

If there's a lesson here, it's that Wikipedia needs a rule something like "Style and formatting should be consistent within an article, though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia. Where more than one style is acceptable, editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a good reason" -- except that there already is such a rule, right at the top of each MOS page. (Take a look.)

I've been fond of quoting Beyond My Ken in recent days:

The flip side of "ownership" is the problem of editors who come to an article with a particular agenda, make the changes they want to the page according to their preconceived notions of what should be, and then flit off to their next victim, without ever considering whether the page really needed the change they made, or whether the change improved the article at all. These hit and run editors certainly never take the time to evaluate the article in question, consider what its needs are, and spend the time necessary to improve its quality. Their editing is an off-the-rack, one-size-fits-all proposition, premised on the idea that what improves one article, or one type of article, will automatically improve every other article or type of article. In the grand scheme of things, "ownership" may cause conflicts when two editors take the same degree of interest in a particular article, and disagree with it, but mostly it helps to preserve what is best in an article. On the other hand, hit-and-run editing, including the plague of hit-and-run tagging that's defaced so many Wikipedia articles, is a much more serious problem, because it's more difficult to detect, frequently flies under the flag of the MoS (and therefore is presumed at first blush to be legitimate), and is more widespread. Wikipedians should worry more about those who hit-and-run, and less about those who feel stewardship towards the articles they work so hard on. 03:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

ChrisGualtieri and I have had our serious differences, but at least he takes a longterm interest in the article‍—‌Tryptofish too, of course. John may think this incident has reinforced my "ownership" of the article; I'd like to think it's raised awareness of the cumulative damage done, and the huge amounts of editor time wasted, by (I'll say it again) these self-satisfied roving enforcers. EEng (talk) 05:06, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Careful now EEng, you wouldn't want to get blocked by an uninvolved admin, would you. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:31, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

After the block

I'm saddened to see that there was a block, and I have some concerns about Bgwhite being involved. But, instead of being "the nub of the matter", I feel that EEng's post above was a saddening demonstration of why we have a problem, and a problem that will continue after the block is over. (It's certainly a textbook case of turning an ANI thread that was about to peter out as "no consensus" into something worse.) EEng, sincerely, I'm glad that you point out, just above, that I have a good-faith interest in the page, so please listen to me about this: The claim that the editors who express concerns about the page are simply driving by, and objecting to the formatting as WP:IDONTLIKEIT, without any legitimate interest in page content, has started to become a recurrent theme in this discussion, and it is wrong and needs to be refuted. It is starting to run afoul of WP:ASPERSIONS. What has happened at Talk:Phineas Gage over the past week or so is not anything like that. It is not just a matter of disliking something trivial that readers of Wikipedia do not see. After all, we can't have it both ways: it cannot be something that has caused "damage" to the page, and at the same time be something trivial and petty and unseen. What really did happen was a group of editors showing up in response to a call to make the page a WP:GA, and trying to work in good faith to that purpose, and then finding themselves in an edit war where each of them successively made either one or zero reverts, and you made all the opposing reverts unilaterally. It's a falsehood to say that the idiosyncratic page formatting is an accepted alternative, equal in the eyes of the editing community to what occurs on greater than 99% of all other pages. If all that formatting (not to even mention the more substantive issues about sourcing on the page) is a good idea, let's have a community RfC at WP:MOS and determine that the community thinks that. Until then, such a consensus does not exist. But the editors at the Gage talk page expressed concerns that are consistent with present-day Wikipedia consensus, and the talk page consensus was unambiguously against you. So let's put an end, right now, to this theme of calling the editors who have disagreed with you drive-by editors who do not care about page content. It's a lie. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

• It's an offensive and disruptive lie and the block was merited for making and repeating it. John (talk) 07:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
• I think the block - done during the middle of this discussion - is not necessary a good thing (because now unless someone copy-and-paste stuff over from EEng's talk page, his opinions cannot be heard. Thus, I have added a {{DNAU}} for a few days so that this discussion is not archived before EEng gets a chance to reply here again. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 04:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

For those who took the weekend off, Bgwhite blocked me Friday night, calling my post above "harassment".

• I posted the following (here edited somewhat) at my own talk page, in response to Bgwhite's block notice:

Noting that you blocked me for comments regarding you, I'll let the great John Stuart Mill explain how ridiculous you're making yourself look:

If the test [of what is offensive] be offence to those whose opinion is attacked, I think experience testifies that the offence is given whenever the attack is telling and powerful, and that every opponent who pushes them hard, and whom they find it difficult to answer, appears to them ... an intemperate opponent.

In other words, Bgwhite, it stings because it's true, you're mad because you can't think of anything to say in response, and as the person criticized you shouldn't take it upon yourself to decide whether the criticism is within bounds. I doubt I'll appeal this since there's more use letting it stand as a 48-hour monument to your thin-skinned pettiness.

EEng (talk) 06:30, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Not surprisingly, Bgwhite had nothing to say.

• Tryptofish says: We can't have it both ways: it cannot be something that has caused "damage" to the page, and at the same time be something trivial and petty and unseen. But I didn't say that each change was simultaneously damaging and petty/trivial/unseen. I said that each change was at best trivial/petty/unseen, but now and then one of them is damaging.
• Here's the actual "lie" in this conversation (since apparently it's not OK to call other editors self-satisfied, but it's OK to call them liars): that the article violated MOS, or GA criteria, or the mysteriously unspecified "present-day Wikipedia consensus" to which Tryptofish refers; and/or that any of this posse have responded to my attempts to discuss their changes, other than to tell me they are five and I am only one.

• Here's a diff [12] showing the hundreds and hundreds of changes which started this scuffle. Point out a few of the violations of MOS, or of the "present-day Wikipedia consensus", or of the WP:Good article criteria, being corrected here..
• Here's a link [13] to my attempt to discuss these changes. Point out where anything more meaningful than "we outvote you" was said in response to my attempts to discuss.

• Let's hear again how self-satisfied is hurtful namecalling, while accusations like "COI", "arrogant and rude" -- not to mention "lying" -- are thrown around with impunity in this very discussion.

EEng (talk) 07:19, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

(rolls eyes) Name calling is childish gaming to involve an admin who takes interest in any case on ANI. Doing it isn't going to make you immune.--v/r - TP 07:29, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm torn between rolling my eyes, too, or just wiping a tear from them. I got into this whole mess as someone who considered EEng a Wiki-friend, thinking that I was coming to take his side in a much earlier complaint, but I was surprised by what I actually saw, and for the longest time, I have tried to take a middle stance that opposed any sanctions against EEng. What tipped it for me was the unambiguous edit warring and unwillingness to accept consensus during the recent GA discussion. In the last ANI complaint about EEng, just a month ago, the discussion was about to quiet down when EEng needlessly re-inflamed it. The same thing happened above, in the post that prompted the block. And now, it has happened yet again, in the post-block comment directly above. Although I can understand that any editor might want to let off some steam after a block that they consider to have been unfair, I'm afraid that I cannot pass this off as simply that. EEng does not have to agree with other editors, but he is failing to acknowledge that they have non-petty concerns, and failing to indicate that he is willing to make an effort to work towards consensus, unless that consensus is what he personally prefers. The discussion here got off track with competing proposals to issue blocks and to topic ban another editor, but I suggest that the only way to get a meaningful conclusion is if editors will focus on this one editor. I still think we should topic ban EEng indefinitely from Phineas Gage, while continuing to allow access to Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Still waiting for even one actual example illustrating the alleged problems whose correction I was reverting

• The true lesson of "The last ANI complaint about EEng" is quite different from the one Tfish implies. The OP of that thread (Johnuniq) complained that "recent behavior of User:EEng at WT:MOSNUM as disruptive ... EEng should be told to make an argument a couple of times, and then keep quiet". But none of the editors subsequently calling for my head in that ANI thread were participants in the MOSNUM discussion -- instead they were (surprise!) the same cast of characters seen piling on in this ANI thread. And in fact, in a subsequent MOSNUM discussion the following unsolicited compliments were posted by someone who actually was involved in the earlier MOSNUM discussion -- the one in which (according to Johnuniq) I had been so disruptive:

• [14] The discussion on kWh was mostly good-natured, and it was resolved well with Eeng's stewardship
• [15] If I had known about the proposed topic ban I would have opposed it. You are doing a good job. Consider toning down for newcomers not yet accustomed to your style, especially non-native English speakers who might not appreciate the wit.

It might add force to that editor's comments when I say that he and I completely disagreed about the issue under discussion until almost the very end.

• I believe in the good faith of everyone here, but some are so certain that they've ceased to examine their own claims. So please, do what I asked in bold above, which is to open the diff linked there and point out two or three of the MOS violations, or "concerns consistent with present-day Wikipedia consensus", that were (as you've claimed) being addressed in that diff, and which I was therefore resisting or reverting. Unless you do that, everything you and John and Bgwhite say here falls to the ground.

EEng (talk) 23:55, 1 September 2014 (UTC) (P.S. Others e.g. Martinevans123, Nyttend, BedsBookworm, Ritchie333 -- please, everyone ping your favorites -- are encouraged to look at the diff as well, and opine.)

Difficult to offer an objective comment as I have become familar with EEng's "colourful" style of interaction. I think much of this is good-natured but often appears, especially to those unfamiliar, as flippant, aggressive or arrogant. That said, as EEng suggests, I think actual clear diffs, to illustrate this "blockable" behaviour, are still required. It's obvious that he does not see himself as the only guilty party here. But I've always found both Tryptofish and John to be very resonable in all my previous dealings with them, so I'm sure they must have a valid point. I think Bgwhite may have made a grave error of judgement, as an involved admin, in blocking EEng while this discussion was still open. It seems to have served only to antagonise EEng and made postions more entrenched all round. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Martinevans123, thank you for the kind words and for your desire to find a reasonable resolution. I will attempt to reply with specifics. Where you ask about blocking, as opposed to a topic ban, I want to make it clear that I have advised against any block, throughout this discussion, so I am not going to defend the block. I think there is a case that the block was borderline WP:INVOLVED, and I also think that there are cases that, both, the block was provoked and that there was a valid rationale, instead, for a 3RR block. In the end, it's time to move on from the block, not to go back over and re-parse it.

EEng asks for specific diffs concerning the consensus about MOS. I asked EEng, at his user talk about two months ago, to direct me to where discussions about MOS and his formatting approach had taken place: [16]. He replied, in part, that there was never really such a discussion, and that the way he formats pages is largely just a matter of his personal "pet peeve" and "pastime": [17]. I then asked, in part, to make sure that I had understood him correctly: [18]. He never disagreed.

EEng presents the discussion about the GA editing as one where the only responses he got from anyone were of the "we outvote you" nature. I will point to an example where I tried to engage with him with great specificity and in great detail about these editing issues: Talk:Phineas Gage/Archive 6#WP:BRD. And that's just one example of where I have tried to engage on these issues; there are many more. Now I understand that EEng is asking here about responses in the most recent talk page thread, but anything he asks there, I already answered before, and it is unhelpful to keep acting anew as if nothing has been discussed already.

EEng argues that the previous ANI discussion was nothing like the present one, and that my analogy was incorrect. In that earlier thread, I said this: [19]. EEng replied: [20]. The first half of his reply could have ended the entire affair peaceably. The second half was a needless jab at John. Unfortunately, John responded: [21]. EEng then massively escalated the conflict: [22]. When I referred back to that exchange, here, I was referring to the fact that EEng failed to drop the stick then, as he is also doing now.

--Tryptofish (talk) 17:06, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• I did not ask for "diffs concerning the consensus about MOS". I asked you to point to something in the article that violates MOS. To make that easy I provided you with a diff of the "corrections" (which you supported) to these alleged violations. You still haven't pointed to anything.

• But since you bring it up, as seen in your diff I did not say that 'the way [I format] pages is largely just a matter of [my] personal "pet peeve" and "pastime"'. I said that ragged right margins are a pet peeve, and hunting them down is sort of a pastime". That's quite different. (I have to sit through lot of boring meetings, and they frown on pornography, so I hyphenate instead.)

• I didn't say that "the previous ANI discussion was nothing like the present one". In fact it's a lot like the present one (e.g. same cast of characters piling on). What I did say that you draw the wrong lesson from it, as explained above.

EEng (talk) 03:32, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

• I wish I was smart enough to understand edits like this one. Whether Bgwhite should have issued the block or not is somewhat beyond my ken, but that EEng's behavior left something to be desired is clear to me, and that a stick needs to be dropped is clear to me also. "Drive-by editor", if it involves an assumption of bad faith as seems to have been the case here, is certainly not productive and can be considered a (blockable) PA. Drmies (talk) 18:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• This bullet point slightly revised for clarity. Don't blame me for your headache, Drmies, because that's not my edit -- this one is [23]. To see what I mean by that, see this slice of the revision history [24] I was in the middle of fixing citations, adding content, and other such trivial stuff, during which members of the posse showed up repeatedly to revert to "their" version, in which important stuff (like non-visible markup linebreaks) is they way they like it, and irritating blemishes (such as internal notes pointing out missing page #s in citations) have been banished. That this old version of theirs was missing a lot of actual content didn't matter, of course.
• After the third such visit from The Enforcers, I opened a discussion [25] in which I carefully outlined the issues as I saw them. As you can see, with one minor exception, I got no substantive answer -- just a lot of "we're right and you're wrong".
• After a few more days with no response, I explained [26] that I was restoring the article to a blended version, for example removing most of the hidden notes "since I gather editors find them to have low signal-to-noise ratio".
• And next thing you know, here we are at ANI!
• I have never said or implied that anyone's acting in bad faith, only with such certainty that they forget that consensus means "reasoned discussion" not "voting".

EEng (talk) 21:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Drmies. Those kinds of edits give me a headache, myself, and I've parsed through probably a hundred of them. The tl;dr to take from them is that there are a huge number of non-displaying comments, templates that you have to look up what they are for (and that often have no effect on the appearance of the page on most devices), notes appended to notes, and content about how some investigators (collaborators of EEng in real life) went about determining that previous investigators were "incorrect". At a minimum, there is a good faith conversation to be had, as to whether other editors agree with having all of that in a GA (and I predict a forthcoming complaint that I got all the details wrong in that description), given the complexity that it poses. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:40, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for your strikeouts, Tfish, though now a perfectly good "put-up-or-shut-up" challenge will have to go to waste. I guess I can forgive that in the interests of the greater good.
• My "collaborator" is a man I've never met and have spoken with just twice on the phone, and with whom I coauthored one paper six years ago. If there were a dispute of any kind on this subject I'd most happily present it -- warts and all. But there's not: every paper on Gage in the last 15 years explicitly endorses the article's presentation.

We can have a good-faith conversation on all of this, but it's going to require that absolute certainty, and accusations of COI, be checked at the door. Back to the Talk page!

EEng (talk) 21:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks Drmies, I appreciate the outside view. It would really gladden my heart if EEng would voluntarily recuse from editing that article for the duration of preparing the article for GA, something it is easily capable of. I tell you that as a frequent GA and FA reviewer, the esoteric formatting would be an instant fail. It makes the article more difficult to edit without imparting much if anything in the way of improvement or utility. If you don't trust me (or any other editor) to have the best possible at heart for that article, I will voluntarily join you in recusing from the article. Apart from the funky coding, most of the work in the article is good, but it is improvable. No work of man can say otherwise. There are a zillion other articles you can edit, and you can of course contribute to article talk. I predict the only alternative will be a formal topic ban, and/or more blocks. I would totally have blocked you for your obfuscation, rudeness and contempt for your fellow editors had I not been involved in trying to edit the article a few months ago. I am famously lenient and I am sure other admins may have a quicker block reflex than mine. Or do you have another option you wish to suggest? --John (talk) 21:40, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• And sorry, I don't know how that happened. I read your comments EEng, and the last bit about returning to talk is a good point. But earlier on you talk about other folk who want to improve the article, and to raise it to peer-reviewed status, as being a "posse" and call us "enforcers". That isn't acceptable at any time, and it especially isn't right after a block for being mean to your potential co-workers. Please, take a break from this warfare, and do something else for a while. It's a wiki and you really can't prevent others from editing your work, or be mean to them when they try to do so. This is fundamental to our enterprise here. --John (talk) 21:54, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• John, I have no answer to offer here. A very narrow topic ban may be the best solution: no one wants to prevent EEng from editing (I hope), but it seems to me there is broad enough disagreement with their edits to this article. BTW, I agree that "posse" is not acceptable language and violates AGF. Drmies (talk) 15:50, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

• Drmies, I also think that a very narrow topic ban has become unavoidable, as much as I have tried (fruitlessly) for the longest time to avoid anyone having to be sanctioned. Below, EEng calls me to task for, in his opinion, never providing a direct answer to his questions. In my opinion, I already did exactly that, many times, with Talk:Phineas Gage/Archive 6#WP:BRD being just one good example. EEng apparently believes that I'm doing WP:IDHT, and I believe the same about him, so I'm not going to respond below, and I'll just allow whoever may be uninvolved to decide for themselves.
• I propose, yet one more time, that EEng be topic-banned indefinitely from editing Phineas Gage, with no restriction to editing Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:14, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Still waiting for an understanding

Directly above, Drmies points to this diff: [27]. Take a look at the diff, and see who the editor was. EEng replies "that's not my edit". EEng goes on to refer to the editors who disagree with him as "the posse" and "The Enforcers". And all this in the context of an ANI discussion about his unwillingness to treat other editors in the discussion with good faith and without insult. I'm not asking him to agree with other editors. But I'm still waiting for him to acknowledge that other editors really do have good faith concerns, and demonstrate a willingness to engage with them on neutral terms. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:10, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• Like I said, you have to look at the revision history [28] to see what I mean by "that's not my edit".
• I have said repeatedly above that I believe everyone to be acting in good faith, if misguided. It's the stubborn certaintly, combined with the absolute refusal to give even a single example of the alleged problems (see below), that's pissing me off.

EEng (talk) 03:32, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Still waiting for even one actual example illustrating the alleged problems (nth request)

Tfish, you and John keep talking about the "esoteric formatting", but despite my repeated requests you never say what that is. For the love of God, right here, right now, in front of everyone, after all this wasted time and effort, one of you please specify what you're talking about. Let me suggest you do this by making (say) three actual, live edits to the article, each illustrating one variety of this "esoteric formatting" by removing or fixing one or two instances of it. Then link the three diffs here, each with a link to the pertinent MOS provision or other guideline).

If indeed there really are clear violations of MOS, I'll be the first to rush out and fix all instances of them. If it's a matter of judgment or opinion, we can talk about it on the article's Talk page, one by one.

That's all I've ever asked for, and not too much to expect. I doubt I'll be participating here further until that's done. EEng (talk) 03:32, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Gosh, people can reference the recent past and the reason this was brought here, but let's review some issues. This edit resolved the <!--In con{{shy}}sid{{shy}}er{{shy}}a{{shy}}­tion of this important omis{{shy}}sion, --> issue. Shy templates in invisible mark up = totally useless. Painfully old, but this edit to restore useless invisible comments was a repeat issue. Part of the issue has been resolved by you acknowledging Template:Cite_web#COinS after BGwhite pointed it out, but that was also for technical reasons. Glad you understand that now. Though MOS:MARKUP was a repeatedly mentioned. The replacement of many templates you've added with actual characters makes sense and many equivalent changes are so widely supported that even AWB makes the changes for you. Though I am certain that: <!--DO NOT AMERICANISE THIS SPELLING>>>>-->{{sic|neighbouring|hide=y}}<!--<<<<DO NOT AMERICANISE THIS SPELLING --> is a perfectly good example of two irrelevant and distracting invisible comments that is in the current version. Your insistence on nonequivalent measurements "three inches (8{{nbsp}}cm)" are also a bit unusual because of the way you choose to display them. Though this and numerous other issues are best dealt with on the talk page... ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:08, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm looking at the article in the editing window right now. Half of what I see seems redundant to me. Upload links in the image syntax, all kinds of templated spaces and spacings, marked-up paragraph breaks, lists, hidden comments of all kinds, hard returns in the middle of sentences and paragraphs, a plethora of notes with all those formatting codes in the notes (hard to tell where a note ends and the regular text begins)--I have never seen so much templating in one article, and the net effect is, for an illiterate like me, that my editing the article seems very unwelcome. I hope that was not the purpose, but man this looks awful. Drmies (talk) 16:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Still waiting for links to pertinent MOS (or other) guidelines showing that this is anything more than a matter of judgment that should be discussed on the article's talk page, rather than unilaterally thrown away by people using edit summaries like time to move on, majority opinion the best guide [29]. So much for discussion and consensus. Your bit about "hard to tell where a note ends and the regular text begins" is especially amusing, since there used to be comments explaining <!--END NOTE--> (see [30]); but I was told those weren't wanted, so I got rid of them [31] It sure is hard to please everyone. EEng (talk) 17:49, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

EEng, I am glad you find something to be amusing here. There's a better option, of course, then adding another layer of commentary: simplify. (The problem isn't really the notes itself, it's the enormous number of templates sprayed throughout the article. Someone should count curly brackets, just for fun.) You're not doing anyone any favors with this style of editing, or with these interactions here. Drmies (talk) 21:55, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

4RR, EEng, 4RR. --John (talk) 19:11, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:BRD, WP:VOTE, John. EEng (talk) 20:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

3RR is an absolute rule, one of very few we have. Believing you are right or that a consensus was improperly arrived at are not legitimate justifications for breaking it. If you plan to break it again, you will be blocked again and you would be better topic-banned from the article as this is less stressful for all concerned. Is this the case? --John (talk) 20:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

No. Do you plan to high-handedly WP:TAGTEAM me again, then talk sanctimoniously of 3RR? Do you plan to shift from one misinterpreted guideline to another, then in desperation denigrate another editor's work as "shit writing", as in [32] --

If I'm confusing you by referring to ideas that are perhaps new to you, I can make it simple to help you. It's shit writing; it sounds like a teenage girl's diary, not an encyclopedia. Does that make it easier to understand? --John (talk) 08:25, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

-- then give lectures about respect and collaboration, and threaten blocks and topic bans? EEng (talk) 01:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm certainly sorry if I hurt your feelings by calling "notably", "remarkably" and "went so far as to say" in the article "shit writing" when you insisted on edit warring to retain it. I stand by my judgement that this is not good style but I accept I could have put it more nicely. It is both notable and remarkable to me that this disagreement took place over a year ago, and that you are still edit-warring to prevent others from improving the article. I note with regret that you are still throwing around personal judgements like "WP:TAGTEAM" following your recent block for personal attacks. It is better to talk about improving matters (which I was doing in the section you highlight, albeit in unparliamentary language) than to discuss their motivation, as you are doing. If I had said you were a "shit editor" that would have been a personal attack. I did not though. Do you see the difference? --John (talk) 16:40, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Tag teaming (sometimes also called a "Travelling Circus" or "Factionalism") is a controversial[1] form of meatpuppetry in which editors coordinate their actions to circumvent the normal process of consensus. Whose meat puppet are you accusing me of being? What is your evidence for making such an accusation? --John (talk) 16:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I see the difference.

• If I say your comments are hypocritical bullshit (which I am saying), that's not a personal attack. But if I were say that you are a bullshitting hypocrite who splits hairs to remain within the letter of the rules while violating their spirit (which I'm not saying), then that would be a personal attack.
• If two editors take turns reverting a third, and I call that a "tag team", then I'm violating AGF. But if you say I'm "edit warring to prevent others from improving the article", that's not a violation of AGF.

Your deft shapeshifting between pious saint and flailing bully being now fully on display, I'm happy to end this. You will want to have the last, sputtering word, so be my guest. EEng (talk) 21:04, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I never claimed to be a pious saint and I don't think I am a flailing bully either. Once again you are criticising the person rather than their arguments. My arguments are: you may not prevent others from editing the article in question by edit-warring, you may not insist repeatedly on obscure and user-surly coding that nobody but you thinks is of any use, and that you and the article would therefore benefit from some time apart from each other. Your conduct in this thread, and the last one here, unfortunately reinforces my judgement. And now I too will back off and let others have their say. --John (talk) 22:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

It would be helpful to have more eyes on Phineas Gage. Perhaps even if some fresh eyes would do what Drmies did, above: try opening the edit window for any part of the page, and see what you think about it. Or perhaps try to help at the talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:34, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the topic, but the citation style makes it impossible for someone not already familiar with the article (not just the topic) to edit it while keeping the reference style intact. If it was the original style with which the article was created, it would be marginally acceptable, but would prevent the article from being a GA. Converting the references to harvard-style names would make it possible to edit without the risk of confusing or duplicating references, but I have never before seen a Wikipedia article with this many notes, and few with duplicated notes, other than table footnotes.

Some of this may just be saying the reference style is complicated, perhaps not unnecessarily so. But that would have to be justified on the talk page. It doesn't appear to have been, although I haven't checked all the talk archives. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:26, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for that examination. Your experience with the complication is similar to what many of us have experienced. As for whether there has ever been an established consensus for doing it that way, I'll repeat something I said above: I asked EEng, at his user talk about two months ago, to direct me to where discussions about MOS and his formatting approach had taken place: [33]. He replied, in part, that there was never really such a discussion, and that the way he formats pages is largely just a matter of his personal "pet peeve" and "pastime": [34]. I then asked, in part, to make sure that I had understood him correctly: [35]. He never disagreed. He subsequently said here that his "pet peeve" is actually ragged right margins. Most of the archived talk page discussions are about EEng and other editors disagreeing about the formatting; EEng certainly has explained his reasons there, but he has not for the most part gotten editors who disagree with him to change their minds. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Block and admonishment proposal

• For being excessively pedantic with the Phineas Gage article (including wasting time with the GA and Talk page)
• For repeatedly bringing up the same "Prove that I'm being disruptive" argument when many of the disputants have been fait-acomplied into submission by digital forests of carefully composed debating prose
• For excessive wasting of volunteers time here at ANI

A 2 month block should be implemented upon EEng coupled with a significant admonishment reminding EEng of the standards of behavior.

• Support as Proposer Gah... huge wall of text is enough to push me from disinterested apathy to enraged action. Hasteur (talk) 20:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose block, in that form, but I support your intentions, and I thank you for that. EEng is a helpful editor in many other ways, but he just has an issue with this particular page. I'll repeat what I suggested above, instead: I support an indefinite topic ban of EEng from editing Phineas Gage, with no restriction to editing Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose both the block and the proposed topic ban. EEng has written a interesting, well sourced, and informative article, and while they could/should try to behave a bit better, to topic ban them would be losing sight of Wikipedia's main goal (being an encyclopedia). G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 22:00, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • It is for that reason that I proposed no restriction on editing the talk page. That way, we don't lose EEng's expertise about the content of the page, but we allow editors to edit the page itself in accordance with consensus, instead of having to defend against edit wars that go against consensus. That is the real way to advance the main goal of building an encyclopedia. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:13, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose any topic ban on EEng largely per user:G S Palmer and comments by user:Nyttend earlier. The block handed out to him recently is outrageous. If anything EEng has shown remarkable restraint in the face of being baited for almost a year now. Tryptofish, your proposal to restrict EEng to the talk page is ridiculous, like many of the false content issues that you and others drowned the talk page in over the last year, such as supporting the idea that a children's book can be a good source from which to base medical facts. You never lifted a finger to help fix the citation and notes problems caused by others on this article, but join their chorus of 'ban him' when EEng's syntax takes advantage of the features available for making a page very attractive, even after they have been discussed at MOS. I have to say I am pleasantly surprised to see a discussion now underway at Talk:Phineas Gage which shows that user:ChrisGualtieri, EEng's strongest critic, is engaged in fruitful collaboration with EEng, as it matches my experience over the years, where I've never had a problem finding an agreeable solution with EEng on this page even on aspects that I dont 100% agree with him, and I have enjoyed discussing gritty details with him re both content and syntax which have resulted in vast improvements to the article over the years. We should be so lucky to have such dedication shown to all our articles. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 03:53, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose largely per G S Palmer and John Vandenberg. I can't put it any better than it already has been put. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 04:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose block and topic ban. I largely agree with G S Palmer and John Vandenberg. I think as things cool down, more cooperation will emerge. I am One of Many (talk) 04:56, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as per I am One of Many. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:48, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose block and topic ban, per John Vandenberg and others. "Excessively pedantic" is one of the silliest charges I've ever seen on Wikipedia. EEng does appear to be quite pedantic, but that same pedantry seems to have produced a remarkably thorough article on Phineas Gage. This whole proposal and its wording suffers from a lack of WP:AGF. Are you claiming EEng is purposefully wasting people's time, or just that too much time is consumed as a result of his editing/formatting style and "digital forests of carefully composed debating prose"? Should EEng be admonished to debate less effectively, then? IRW0 (talk) 13:28, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - EEng's working with me, but I don't think another block is going to result in a net gain for Wikipedia. The article is still so arcane in formatting that its a tedious chore to make even trivial changes, but its been a huge improvement in the year and the content has somewhat improved. This is a very important page because of its high number of views and work is being done. It has not been easy and there is always something to disagree over, but in large, progress is being made and the page is improving - that's all I really care about. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:52, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment EEng needs to be clear that further edit-warring will result in another block. --John (talk) 17:45, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

John needs to be clear that it takes two (or more, in case of tag-teaming) to edit war. Remember to turn out the lights when you're done. EEng (talk) 01:48, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support block and add indefinite topic ban. Wikipedia is not therapy. --John (talk) 09:26, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

If it is, it doesn't seem to be working. EEng (talk) 11:50, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. Someone should probably close this entire thread, as nothing further is going to come of it. I continue to oppose the use of blocks in this situation, as they truly will not prevent anything that needs preventing. I do note that ChrisG and EEng actually do seem to be working well together, and I hope that it lasts. As for all the editors who oppose any action, I was one of you until the recent edit war changed my mind – and I hope that you all have a good plan for how you will each, individually, help bring the page to being a GA, and that you will have good solutions when a GA reviewer has objections to the page formatting. And something else: I want to set the record straight. John Vandenberg claims some things about me – and some other editors appear to be accepting it as truth without checking for themselves. Throughout this dispute, I've learned to expect that John Vandenberg will eventually show up and attack me, without letting the actual facts get in his way. It's puzzling how such a person could ever have become an administrator, much less get elected to ArbCom, because truly, whatever it is that sets him off about me has no basis in the world of reality. There's a consensus at MOS??? I don't distinguish between good and bad medical sources??? I don't engage in fruitful collaboration with EEng??? I've never lifted a finger to help improve that page??? Amazing!!! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:45, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

For the record, those aren't the things John Vandenberg said (except about MOS, though I'm not sure what he's referring to there). Also for the record, you and I certainly have engaged in fruitful collaboration in the past, and I hope we will in the future. EEng (talk) 11:50, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I stand by what I said about John Vandenberg – but what is much, much more important is that I, too, look forward to working with you fruitfully in the future as we have done many times before. For me, none of what I've said about you here has been personal, but I sincerely hope that what you, and Chris, and anyone else will take away from this ANI wall-of-text is that editing of Phineas Gage is about working collaboratively to improve the page, and not about having things one's own way. You said to John, above, that it takes two or more to edit war; please remember that the recent edit war had you on one side making multiple reverts, and everyone on the other side making only a single revert, or none at all. That doesn't make the other editors a tag-team, or a posse. Now, will somebody please close this discussion. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:57, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

After commenting here, I looked at the most recent edits at the Gage page and at EEng's user talk, and I hope that I didn't speak too soon here. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:27, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

DangerousPanda's latest block of Barney the barney barney

DangerousPanda has blocked Barney the barney barney repeatedly for personal attacks on Bearcat. Today, DangerousPanda ratched the sanctions up again by blocking Barney even from editing his own talk page. Realistically, Barney has not been behaving himself. But it's becoming obvious this did not happen in a vacuum. Bearcat has continued to pick at the scab, obviously gloating over Barney's predicament and doing everything possible to annoy Barney. He should simply walk away. But also, I'm concerned with the growing appearance that DangerousPanda may be too WP:INVOLVED, that it's starting to become personal, a test of wills. When I pointed out my concerns (respectfully, I thought), DangerousPanda's response was as insulting and in the same way as what got Barney blocked from his own home page, questioning whether my brain was working. I don't think I deserved that but I do think it's evidence that DangerousPanda's handling of the situation is no longer helpful. Discussion may be found at User talk:Barney the barney barney#August 2014. Msnicki (talk) 00:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Just so others reading this thread don't have to search for them this post full of personal attacks and this post with its threatening wording are being equated to this. IMO there is absolutely no comparison. Again IMO, the two posts by Btbb deserve the removal of talk page privileges. B always has the WP:STANDARDOFFER should they ever want to return to productive editing. MarnetteD|Talk 00:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that DangerousPanda's insulting remarks toward me were worse than Barney's, I am saying DangerousPanda's insults were similarly childish playground material and, more important, completely unprovoked. When you start comparing provoked versus unprovoked insults as if the same standards should apply, aren't you out on rather thin ice? Msnicki (talk) 01:08, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

False, at no time did I insult you. This has been discussed, and clarified with you directly, and subjected to consensus - please stop using your erroneous reading as a need to provide some form of action against me. the panda ₯’ 20:25, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I suspect this is the "consensus" outcome DangerousPanda is referring to. You'll pardon my uncertainty. It happened so fast. Msnicki (talk) 03:32, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

DP's remarks were in no way, shape, manner or form like B's. You claimed that DP was somehow "involved" without offering any evidence. That can be seen as childish playground material as well. What is it that you want from admins here? I doubt that they are going to tell DP to stop reasonably explaining any actions taken. MarnetteD|Talk 01:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Not true. I did not claim DangerousPanda was involved. I said there was an appearance developing and that when DP's response to my raising the concern respectfully was to insult me, that that was evidence it might be more than appearance. What I recommend is that another admin step in and that Bearcat be asked to stop stirring the pot. (He's the only admin who's never read WP:STICK and doesn't know to back away when he's already won?) The objective, realistically, the only legitimate objective, is good behavior all around. The continued escalation of sanctions and the continued remarks on Barney's talk page by editors with history of conflict with Barney is not getting us there. Get these other folks with their own axes to grind out of there, back off the talk page ban, tell everyone to get a little thicker skin and I think the situation could be resolved. That's what I want. Msnicki (talk) 01:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

DP blocked a user who called another editor, repeatedly and at length, names like idiot, liar, and troll, and all over the stunningly insignificant matter of the proposed deletion of an article about an obscure city official. The block was entirely appropriate regardless of how allegedly WP:INVOLVED DP was or was not. I would hope any admin would have done the same. Gamaliel (talk) 01:31, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

And so why is Bearcat (an admin, for pete's sake!) still stirring the pot on Barney's talk page over this insignificant matter even after Barney was indef'ed? Msnicki (talk) 01:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea what that has to do with DP or the appropriateness of the block, but perhaps it would be appropriate to issue a warning to Bearcat. Gamaliel (talk) 01:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Just looked at BBB's talk page again and I don't see any new messages past the 1st from Bearcat., so it looks like any alleged potstirring has passed. Even so, I think it is appropriate to ask Bearcat to drop the matter and stay away from now on, without passing judgement on the appropriateness of previous comments. Gamaliel (talk) 01:54, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

This was Bearcat's last pot-stirring. Barney had already been indef'ed so what exactly was the point of all this except to poke Barney in the eye when he was already down? That's what prompted Barney's response, the one got him blocked even from his own talk page. Frankly, while I don't condone Barney's response, if I'd been Barney, I definitely wouldn't have appreciated Bearcat's boorish behavior. I might have had some choice words as well. I'll say again, the objective here should be good behavior all around. It would be helpful if we can make that outcome the easy one for Barney to accept. Allowing Bearcat to continue stirring the pot is not helping that. Msnicki (talk) 02:29, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

BBB had already called Bearcat a liar, a troll, and an idiot many days before this alleged potstirring, so this appears to me that you are blaming the victim for provoking the attacker. Even if we were to accept your reading of the situation, what is your preferred outcome or recommended course of action? The alleged potstirring is days in the past. It's over. No one is continuing to stir the pot except those of us participating in this ANI thread. Gamaliel (talk) 03:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

You care a lot more about who started it than I do. I care more about outcomes. My experience of Barney is that he's been a steady and constructive contributor. The outcome I'd like is one where that can continue. Msnicki (talk) 04:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Can you please try to be specific in your responses and make them actual responses to the points being discussed? First, you complained about Dangerous Panda, then when I responded about his actions, your response to me was about Bearcat, and when I responded to your point about Bearcat, now you are talking about Barney. We're not going to make any progress to any outcome if you are veering all over the map. I still have no idea about what specific outcome you expect to come from this discussion and what steps you think we should take to get there. Gamaliel (talk) 04:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing "boorish" about responding, politely, to continued namecalling and continued mischaracterization of one's behaviour — especially when the editor in question was actively @pinging me, even when he was responding to somebody else, to make sure I knew that the personal attacks were continuing. I was not purposely watching his talk page to see what was happening; I was getting active announcements in my notification queue that I was being discussed, and responded to those notifications in exactly the same way that I'd be perfectly entitled to respond to similar discussion of me, and/or similar active @pinging of my attention, in any other space on Wikipedia. I will step away as you wish, but there is no basis for claiming that I've acted inappropriately at any point in this matter. Bearcat (talk) 15:16, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't seen any proof of anyone being involved and you did state that DP was involved..."then yes, I do think you're no longer uninvolved and that you should step back." Please explain this. The only thing that I see Bearcat is guilty of is not archiving his talk page. Are you asking for a proxy block review because DP revoked talk page access or asking for review of admin behavior? Please clarify.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:09, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Fine. Let's not split hairs. I said I thought there was an appearance developing. Every sanction had been applied only by DangerousPanda and it was beginning to look to me like a possible test of wills. When an experienced editor is facing an indef, I expect to see a history of problems where several admins have had to step in and there was none of that. Whether DangerousPanda is or is not really involved may not even be knowable unless someone here is an undisclosed mind-reader able to tell us what motivated his behavior. But when DangerousPanda's response was to insult me, I thought that was actual evidence (not proof) of involvement. My personal opinion is that he is. But either way, I don't think this is a constructive situation conducive to de-escalation. I think it would be useful for another admin to step in to avoid even the appearance of involvement. Does that clarify my position for you? Msnicki (talk) 02:29, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Partially. What would you like admins reading this to do? What action(s) are you looking for?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:40, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

{ec}Restore talk page access. 02:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I recommend backing off this latest indef ban even from his own talk page. This serves no purpose except to pour salt in the wound, making the one desirable outcome less likely. Bearcat should be asked to drop the WP:STICK and avoid interaction with Barney, especially on Barney's talk page. The condition of lifting Barney's indef should be that he can state how he violated our policy prohibiting personal attacks, that he agree to avoid any further violations and that he also agree to drop the WP:STICK and avoid interaction with Bearcat. He shouldn't have to say he's sorry or that he didn't mean it. He does need to say he won't do it again. It would be helpful if another uninvolved admin could volunteer to monitor the discussion on Barney's talk page and review any unblock request Barney may make. Msnicki (talk) 03:03, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Msnicki, it's common for an administrator who blocked a user to keep monitoring the situation. The fact that Btbb - in the unblock request - basically turned around and lashed out at DP made it so that most admins would have declined and re-sanctioned Btbb. WP is not a bureaucracy*. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 02:53, 4 September 2014 (UTC) Exceptions apply in certain places, but that's besides the point.

• What unblock request?? NE Ent 02:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Unblock request but then he changed it.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• The purpose of dispute resolution volunteers -- including admins -- is (or should be) to resolve conflicts, not administer "justice." Although it's not written down -- because we are not (supposed to be) a bureaucracy -- it's generally understood editors involved in a conflict -- regardless of whether they are "right" or "wrong" -- should not be posting on the talk page of a blocked editor. Had DP addressed that issue first, the situation was much more likely to be resolved. NE Ent 03:01, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Even if "acceptable", are the actions "helpful"? At this point it seems that the actions on all sides are merely winding the spring tighter and unlikely to help achieve any beneficial outcomes. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:04, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

There seems to be a growing and disturbing trend for admins to indefinitely block content builders, demand that they grovel as a condition for their return, and then gag them by blocking access to their own talk page when they get upset. Another point of view is that this is a destructive strategy that unnecessarily alienates content builders from Wikipedia. That included content builders who just see this nastiness going on from the sidelines. Presumably admins who employ these methods feel that the mission of admins is to severely administer discipline to the rabble of content builders and show them who is boss. After all, there is no mission statement for admins. No one knows what they are here for, and individual admins are free to make up and follow their own ideas. There are many other ways of resolving behaviour issues, but admins are not taught about them, and generally seem to lack skilful means for resolving them. --Epipelagic (talk) 05:03, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

As an uninvolved admin, here is my take on the situation. This has nothing to do with blocking "content builders". DPs response was to a situation involving disruption of an AfD and personal attacks for which, not unreasonably, a 96 hour block was imposed. That should have been the end of it but BtBB chose to engage in further personal attacks on Bearcat, resulting in an indef block. BtBB's subsequent unblock request claimed "I haven't done anythign (sic) wrong" when in the preceding Talk page section he had once more attacked Bearcat. That led to the withdrawal of Talk page access, again, not unreasonable given the circumstances. Disruption and personal attacks are not acceptable on Wikipedia and in my view DP has acted correctly and in no way become "involved". The standard OFFER will apply if and when Btbb choses to return. Meanwhile, the mission of admins (yes, there is one) is to maintain the integrity of Wikipedia, prevent disruption and ensure that editors do not engage in behavoir that is considered unacceptable by the community per AGF and CIVIL.  Philg88 ^♦talk 06:17, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

That's unclear on just about every point, Phil. To mention a couple, where is this mission statement you refer to and what is this "integrity" admins are supposed to be protecting? Who ensures the integrity of the admins themselves? I'm not sure why you think BtBB doesn't qualify as a content builder. You say that the "standard OFFER" applies to BtBB. According to that offer BtBB is in effect now banned for six months, after which he may shop around and see if he can find an admin to grovel in front of, a grovel which "usually takes a few days". In the meantime if BtBB want to return, he would be "well-advised to make significant and useful contributions to other WMF projects". That's sickening. --Epipelagic (talk) 07:03, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if you find my thoughts unclear–let me clarify. I didn't use the word "statement"—I said "mission" while the "integrity" I refer to is ensuring compliance with the corpus of guidelines and policies that shape Wikipedia according to consensus. Admin's are !voted in as trusted members of the community and you are free to question their interpretation of community consensus through discussion. I also didn't say BtBB did not "qualify as a content builder", I said that the matter under consideration had nothing to do with content building, which it doesn't. The standard Wikipedia procedure in the case of an indef block is covered in WP:OFFER. If a review is considered appropriate before the expiration of six months, then everyone will have the opportunity to comment at the subsequent discussion.  Philg88 ^♦talk 07:30, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

In the absence of a mission statement, the "mission" you refer to is just one you decided upon yourself. Which is the point I was making, that admins just make up their own mission. Likewise, the guidelines and policies are controlled by and largely written by admins, not the community. There may be a degree of community consensus at the point where an admin undertakes an RfA. But admins have appointed themselves for life. In long past halcyon days, would-be admins including school children needed do little more than ask to be an admin. Many of these legacy admins would not get community approval if they ran again. Nor would many of the more recent entrants to the admin corps. So it is not correct to say that admins as a body have the trust of the community. The admin corp might gain trust and respect from the community if enough admins found the courage to address the absurdities of their own system. Rational change can come now only from within the body of admins. Content builders are powerless, and recent events have clearly shown that Jimbo and the Foundation lack the insight needed for helpful intervention. Wikipedia has been hijacked by an admin system which controls its own terms and refuses to look squarely at what it is doing. --Epipelagic (talk) 08:44, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The admin in question was in fact rejected once by the community at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/DangerousPanda (redirects to /Bwilkins) in April 2009. Later, they were accepted by the community at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Bwilkins 2 in January 2010. This was four and a half years ago, and the last discussion had 116 participants, the overwhelming majority of whom were in favor of adminship for this editor. Your generalizations are moot at best. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:42, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Your strange "rebuttal" has nothing to do with anything I said. In fact I said the diametric opposite to what you apparently understood: There may be a degree of community consensus at the point where an admin undertakes an RfA. Bwilkins was not remotely in my mind when I wrote that. My generalizations are in fact accurate and easy to authenticate. --Epipelagic (talk) 02:42, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

If the apparent topic of this discussion was not remotely in your mind when writing here, then why are you writing here and not in a separate section? Do you not see the potential for this kind of a tangential rant to be offending to that person? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:17, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I was talking about the principle of indefinitely blocking content builders, which is most certainly central to this thread, and replying specifically to Philg88. Do you not see the potential for this kind of failure to read what was said to be offending? --Epipelagic (talk) 20:56, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Bit hard for barney to respond to the all encompasing witch-hunt now that he's had all editing powers removed. Maybe unrevoke his talkpage first to see if he's able to discuss this now he's had a chance to sleep on it. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 06:51, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I second this. But I suggest a 48 hour cooling off period.Two kinds of pork (talk) 07:45, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

We don't do anything that EVER resembles "cooling off blocks" - that's a dangerous suggestion. This is the second time I've removed talkpage access - it was returned, and they continued their attacks. They've had a couple of weeks to "cool off" if that was indeed possible. Barney still has many avenues of appeal open to them; let them use those wisely once they have formulated their appeal offline the panda ₯’ 09:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Well as long as you look like a reasonable human being and not some crackpot on a powertrip. Good work! Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 11:38, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

If letting him edit his own talk page hasn't worked in the past, how about if we make a couple changes that might give us a better chance it will work this time? First, ask Bearcat to stay away. His stirring the pot isn't helping and the fact you defended Bearcat's boorish behavior rather than stopping it isn't helping either. Second, let's ask you to stay away, too. I don't think Barney is ever going to "knuckle under" for you but I also don't think that should be the condition for being able to edit here. The condition should be that he behaves himself. Let another admin decide whether Barney can behave himself at least on his own talk page if there are no new provocations. If we can make these changes, I think it can work. Msnicki (talk) 09:54, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

You know what? You need to screw off with the suggestion that I'm trying to make him "knuckle under" and the "gosh darn it, you are going to make Barney behave" bullshit. I don't play power games, and such suggestion are inflammatory rhetoric in and of themselves. Those are serious accusations that you neither provide proof of, or withdraw. the panda ɛˢˡ” 10:55, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment Having had implications made about my competence and knowledge by BtBB at discussions surrounding Talk:Jacob Barnett, to the point where he/she tried to get me topic banned, I have been following the above discussion. The problem is that when you are subjected to personal attacks, it becomes very difficult to maintain the standards of neutrality that Wikipedia rightly demands. The signs of emotion are usually there, I see them in the above contribution. Therefore I would tend to support the view that DP should withdraw from this case, and should probably have left it to another, previously uninvolved admin to extend the block to the talk page. Viewfinder (talk) 13:17, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

No comment on the propriety of the block but this is another case where watching a blocked editors talk page allowed us to get exercised about inflammatory comments which would otherwise have been read by nobody. We should have some sense of proportionality in these situations. Protonk (talk) 14:05, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I need to bring up a new development in this matter — namely, about three hours ago Barney sent me a pvt e-mail consisting of one line: "It is not too late for you to apologise for your actions." Apart from the fact that I still haven't at any point taken any actions that need to be "apologized" for, there's obviously a veiled threat here of what might happen if and when he decides that it is "too late" anymore. I'm certainly not going to engage the matter by actually responding to his e-mail at all, but the fact that it was sent at all needed to be raised. Bearcat (talk) 01:01, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Please follow the protocol at WP:EMAILABUSE; note that emails should not be posted online. (This is not an endorsement of Bearcat's interpretation of the email, just a note that conduct in emails are out of scope of ANI due to copyright / privacy concerns). NE Ent 01:12, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you should apologize, Bearcat. Per WP:IUC, "Other uncivil behaviors [include] taunting or baiting: deliberately pushing others to the point of breaching civility even if not seeming to commit such a breach themselves." Msnicki (talk) 01:26, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

If he read my advice to him earlier in the day, he knows that apologies are always voluntary, else they'd be worthless anyway. If he can't be required to apologize, he knows you can't be, either. So I'd be inclined to take his remark at face value, that he's open to negotiating a way to bury the hatchet. Of the three possible choices I outlined for him, avoid, get along or fight, but only within the guidelines, maybe he'd like to get along. Perhaps he'd be willing to exchange apologies. There's nothing wrong with asking him, well, if I apologized, could I expect one from you? WP:AGF Msnicki (talk) 15:11, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Should Indefinite Block Be Limited?

There are at least two questions here. The first is whether User:DangerousPanda became involved in the block of User:Barney the barney barney and should have let another administrator handle it. The second is the length of the block for User:Barney the barney barney, who is currently under an indefinite block with talk page access revoked. The first question is about the past. The second question is about the future. I propose that we discuss the second question. In my judgment, Barney is a contentious editor who is a net plus to Wikipedia. I haven't located the AFD that was the original locus of the dispute, but I infer that it has been closed. Disruption of an AFD and personal attacks are inappropriate, and are appropriately dealt with by blocks. However, indefinite blocks should be reserved for editors who are not here to contribute to the encyclopedia, such as vandals, flamers, trolls, or incompetent editors. Barney isn't one of those. Barney isn't the sort of editor to whom the standard offer applies, to see whether the editor has learned and can become a net plus, but a contentious editor who is already a net plus. I propose that the community change Barney's indefinite block to time served, slightly less than two weeks. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support as described above. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Yes. It's time to move on. But to avoid new problems, I would also ask that Bearcat avoid interaction with Barney, especially on his talk page, for a period of 3 months to let this heal. His behavior, continuing to stir the pot, even after Barney had already been banned, is a big reason we're here and coming from an admin, I find this inexcusably boorish. Additionally, I would ask that DangerousPanda avoid interaction with Barney in his capacity as an admin for a similar period, again, simply to let this heal. There are lots of admins; if Barney has done something new and even more egregrious, surely another admin can be found to deal with it. And I would ask Barney, try to move on, behave yourself, learn from this experience, don't blow it. Msnicki (talk) 16:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd advise you to read my response above to the first time you characterized my actions as "boorish" — users and administrators are allowed to respond to namecalling attacks and mischaracterizations of their actions, especially when their attention to the discussion is being actively @pinged. Perhaps I misread what the result was going to be, but my intention was a good faith attempt to clarify the matter rather than to "poke" it or "pick at a scab" — and there's nothing "boorish" about politely responding to a personal attack. I gave my promise above to step back as you requested, but I'm not going to accept being described as "boorish" in this discussion for simply responding to personal attacks in a polite and civil manner. Bearcat (talk) 17:09, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I read your earlier comments about being pinged whenever he had something nasty to say about you. Like Robert, I haven't even been able to find that AfD that apparently started it all and frankly, I don't really care that much how it got started. I do care about fixing this and getting good behavior all around. I don't think this is about the AfD anyway. I think it's just about people who don't like each other.

I am not calling you to task over any response you might have made before he was blocked. I am calling you to task for this specific post to Barney's talk page after he'd already been indefinitely blocked. This was over the line. You had to know this couldn't possibly improve the odds the situation could be defused. I think the whole point was to give Barney another poke and see if he'd make another mistake. You should have simply walked away. That post was where I became sympathetic to Barney's position. If you were that boorish (and, sorry, that is the word), that determined to keep beating the dead horse even after you'd won and gotten Barney blocked, I thought it seemed a lot more possible you could have been truly annoying in a heated debate and not nearly so innocent. Msnicki (talk) 17:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I have the right as a Wikipedian to directly respond to any and all attacks on my intelligence, integrity and capability, regardless of the venue in which they're occurring — it's not my responsibility to have predicted that he would respond by ramping the attacks up even further, nor is it my responsibility to ever leave a personal attack on me sitting on the table as the "last word" in any discussion. My responses were always polite and WP:CIVIL — I've been accused in the past of being a bit too blunt, and sometimes coming off more aggressively than I intended to, in my writing style, so I (a) make every effort to be careful about how I phrase myself in a conflict situation, and (b) only ever respond to the substance of what the person is saying, and never attack or insult the individual who's saying them. I'd certainly be willing to accept "boorish" if I had lapsed into responding with similar insults, but I refuse to own that adjective for responding civilly to personal insults that I had no responsibility to not respond to. I'll certainly own up to misreading how productive the attempt was actually going to be, but there's still a massive gap between "misread the situation" and "acted boorishly". Bearcat (talk) 20:01, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

For those who care, this is the AFD that some people are pretending doesn't exist. Look at the edits. Look at the hatted comments. Look at the edit-summaries. Every editor has a right to nominate an article for AFD if they truly believe it's not meeting the standards of Wikipedia. They do not deserve to be called a "liar", a "troll" and/or an "idiot" simply because they nominated an article for deletion and defended their nomination. It is the behavior on this specific AFD that led to the original ANI report, the original block, and BtBB's behavior has led to all escalations since. This block is NOT about "boors" or "people who don't like each other", it's about one person's behaviour; period. Indeed, I have neither likes nor dislikes for any of the editors on this site - you're simply someone on the other end of a computer. I may dislike behaviours, but that's not the same as disliking a person. Sticking one's head in the sand and pretending this AFD is not the reason for the block is short-sighted, and fails to get to the true root of the overall issue. If you want to have someone unblocked, the root behavior needs to be addressed the panda ɛˢˡ” 15:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose There's a real misunderstanding of the purpose of an indefinite block above. "Indef" means "until the community is convinced that the behavior will not recur". I blocked BtBB originally from an ANI report about disruption and personal attacks, primarily in an AFD. When he continued his personal attacks, I removed talkpage access. Following a brief discussion at ANI, I returned their talkpage access. They then used this newfound freedom to not only continue their personal attacks, but to increase their ferocity. This led to me increasing the block to "indef", using the definition above, and when they continued further, re-removal of talkpage access - no member of this community should be forced to live with continual personal attacks. I have admitted more than once that BtBB can be a beneficial content creator, but that the personal attacks MUST be curtailed before the block can be lifted. The process for unblock is clear in WP:GAB: they need to recognize their behavior was contrary to community norms, and give the community (or at least the reviewing admin) that there will not be a recurrence. In the times that BtBB has had access to their talkpage, they've done nothing but attack another editor. As such, there cannot be an unblock at this time, based simply on the process for unblock. When they're able to make a WP:GAB-compliant request, they're welcome to use UTRS for that purpose. There's also ZERO question about me being "involved", as there's simply no proof put forward that such a relationship existed: calling me involved does not make me involved the panda ɛˢˡ” 16:18, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose barring some sort of recognition on his part that those personal attacks are inappropriate. Gamaliel (talk) 16:44, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

This is reasonable. I supported Robert's proprosal but per my comments above in the main section at 03:03, I would also support proceeding in steps, first lifting the talk page block and setting as a condition of lifting Barney's indef that he state how he violated our policy prohibiting personal attacks, that he agree to avoid any further violations and that he also agree to drop the WP:STICK and avoid interaction with Bearcat. But to make any of this happen and make it stick, I think we need to ask that both Bearcat and DP step back. Their continued involvement is no longer helpful in achieving the desired outcome, the one in which Barney is able to contribute and there are no behavior problems. Msnicki (talk) 18:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - The block was justified and necessary to prevent further disruption. All Barney the barney barney has to do is convince the community that the behavior will stop. The amount of time served has no bearing on whether he understands why he was blocked and what he needs to do differently to have his edit privileges restored. I disagree with Robert McClenon's premise that indefinite blocks should be reserved for editors who are NOTHERE. - MrX 16:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per my comments above.  Philg88 ^♦talk 17:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

But, as shown above, your comments are not correct. --Epipelagic (talk) 18:27, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Per EatsShootsAndLeaves; behavior needs to be addressed first. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 17:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
• Neutral. It's not like he's banned. He doesn't even need to grovel or apologize. All he has to do is convince the community that his disruptive activity will end; that could easily take the form of a classic non-apology like, "Mistakes were made, and I regret my involvement. I am ready to drop the stick and move on." Alternatively, he could be given a chance to hang himself, which I am sure he will do rather quickly given his prior behavior. He's really not doing himself any favors by aggressively dismissing the possibility of collaboration with others. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree. This matches the advice I gave Barney on his talk page when all I knew was that he'd gotten himself blocked and probably deserved every bit of it. It's still my advice. But I think the real problem is 3 people who don't like each other and have become locked in a pattern. Expecting Barney to offer up even a non-apology to an angry Panda who also happens to be defending Bearcat's continuing stirring of the pot is just silly. The simple answer is to separate these 3, at least temporarily, and see how much of the problem that fixes. If you think of this as a problem in negotiation, of negotiating good behavior from Barney, I'm proposing what's known as changing the negotiator. Msnicki (talk) 19:04, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

There you go, suggesting I'm "angry" or dislike BtBB. False on both counts. I have no emotional involvement when it comes to BtBB at all ... you and your false and unfounded statements on the other hand ... so seriously, screw off with that bullshit. the panda ₯’ 20:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, right. "I'm not angry, not a bit!" For more on just how not angry you are, please see here. Msnicki (talk) 20:31, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

As noted already multiple times, that is nothing to do with BtBB: that's being "angry" at you and your unfounded accusations and lies, plus your inability to address this with me directly rather than embarrass yourself with such false statements due to horrible assumptions. Yeah, I'm "angry" that I've lost all respect for someone who I once considered a respectable person the panda ₯’ 21:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, my. Now I'm a liar? Isn't that one of the characterizations that got Barney blocked? But how much sweeter when you say it, I guess.

If indeed you aren't invested in this, not emotionally involved, why is it so hard to walk away? Why is it important that you have to be admin who reviews Barney's next unblock request? At minimum, you know he doesn't like you. So why can't that be handed off to someone else? What is the benefit of your continued involvement? Is it more likely or less likely the problem can be resolved if you handle it? Msnicki (talk) 22:19, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Who says I'm going to handle anything? Jumping off into bizarre conclusions, aren't you? You would have been better off discussing this like an adult with me before coming here, rather than attacking and making random, unfounded accusations. All the best to you - I have little time for people who choose this bizarre stance the panda ₯’ 22:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Does that mean you're willing to walk away? If so, I think this can be solved. Msnicki (talk) 22:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Although I said I would refuse to respond to your insults, false claims, and baiting, here is my response: I will continue to use appropriate restraint in all situations with all editors, and act what I believe to be appropriately when a) needed, b) not involved (except in emergency situations). If there's ever CONSENSUS (not unfounded accusations) that I have erred, I will deal with that accordingly as I always have in the past the panda ₯’ 20:29, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: This proposal is not aimed at enhancing admin privileges and power. The usual voting pattern with such proposals is opposition from admins and would-be admins and support from content builders who are not admins. That is the voting pattern above, with just one possible exception. Admins and would-be admins have a conflict of interest here. A parallel would be allowing the military in a country with a military dictatorship to decide what powers and privileges they should have. There is a lot of appeal to the "community" above, when what is meant in practice is merely the views of a blocking admin. --Epipelagic (talk) 18:27, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose A misunderstanding is that indef means forever, it doesn't it means when an uninvolved admin sees fit the block is lifted. Indef blocks are also not to be confused with bans. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:34, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Indef is not infinite. Also the WP:STANDARDOFFER is there for any and all blocked editors to return to the editing community. Epipelagic if there is empirical evidence to support your blanket statement please present it. Otherwise please mark your comment as opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarnetteD (talk • contribs) 18:45, 4 September 2014
• Oppose Indef doesn't mean forever, and considering the circumstances, I think the appropriate block is in place. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 20:50, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support Indef is often used to quickly get rid of an issue, but i think indef should be only used in very rare cases, for users who have been blocked repeatedly, without any signs of positive contributions. My suggestions if for indef in general and i do not want to judge the particular incident discussed here. --prokaryotes (talk) 05:38, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I hope Barney will eventually satisfy the Wikipedia community that he/she will refrain from referring to other contributors as liars and idiots but from his/her most recent posts I see little evidence that that is about to happen. Viewfinder (talk) 10:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support (reading section titles is hard) Wikipedia is certainly strong enough to persevere in even these strenuous times when a blocked editor calls another editor a liar, idiot or troll on their talk page. Protonk (talk) 14:42, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose lifting of block without concerns leading to the being addressed. Having said that, no objections to restoring talk page priveleges to allow for normal block appeals. It is of course understood that misuse of the user talk page again will lead to revocation of talk page again and likely be seen negatively in later requests as well. John Carter (talk) 18:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose reducing block length until BtBB makes some sort of commitment to tone down the attacks. This is troubling; even a token gesture of a non-apology apology is needed here. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 01:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Barney has made a habit of being hostile and uncivil for quite some time; this isn't a bolt from the blue but the result of a consistent pattern of behavior. When he's willing to put forth a good-faith effort to follow policy, including the Five Pillars, then the block can be lifted immediately - but until then we need not to let the usual chorus of admin abuse (i.e. abuse aimed at admins) cause, once again, somebody who refuses to follow policy be given a pass because 'they create content'. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:46, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - long-term nuisance editor. GiantSnowman 10:48, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - I stand with those saying enough is enough. Jusdafax 11:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Weak Support - I believe Dangerous Panda revoking the Talk Page editing from BtBB was justified, but I do believe that BtBB deserves a shortening of the block. On second hand an indef block doesnt always stay Indef, as I have seen many cases where that "Indef" lasts less than a month. As long as BtBB is willing to be civil in the future, I support. --Acetotyce (talk) 20:30, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Let it go and move on. Everyking (talk) 00:53, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

A different proposal

There's clearly some but not a lot of support for Robert's proposal that we simply lift the indefinite block on Barney, turning it into time served. Many editors cite (correctly) that all Barney has to do is promise to stop making personal attacks. And while I supported Robert's suggestion, it was more generous toward Barney than I came seeking and, if none of the rest of the people dynamics were changed, I questioned if it would actually work. Here is my proposal, which I think will work.

1. The indefinite block on Barney's talk page should be lifted, i.e., Barney's access should be restored to his own user talk page only. I contend that the talk page block serves no purpose except to pour more salt in the wound and make it less likely a positive outcome can be achieved, especially under the circumstances at the time, with Bearcat stirring the pot and DP supporting that boorish behavior.
2. Standard conditions should apply to lifting the indefinite block on Barney's privileges outside his talk page. As NinjaRobotPirate points out, this could take the form of the usual non-apology, though personally what I would like to see from Barney is that he can state how he violated our policy prohibiting personal attacks, that he agree to avoid any further violations and that he also agree to drop the WP:STICK and avoid interaction with Bearcat.
3. Another uninvolved admin should monitor Barney's talk page and review any new unblock requests Barney may make.
4. Bearcat should be asked to avoid interaction with Barney, especially on his talk page, for 3 months, simply to let the situation heal. I agree he had the right to post to Barney's talk page even after Barney was blocked, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. Bearcat's actions clearly made it more difficult to resolve the situation and as admin, he should have known better. I called his actions boorish because they were; the word simply means "ill-mannered". It's not a crime but it's not helpful. There was already an admin on the job ready to take immediate action if Barney didn't behave himself and the idea that Bearcat needed to defend himself is just silly.
5. DangerousPanda should be asked to avoid interaction with Barney in his capacity as an admin, also for 3 months, also simply to let the situation heal. DP claims he's not at all emotionally involved, not a bit angry, but his acting out and disrespectful behavior toward me (calling me a liar, telling me to screw off or that I should "act like an adult" and that he no longer considers me a "respectable person") simply for having raised the question all completely belie that. Of course he's angry. The thing is, all of us are human and we all experience human emotions. There's simply nothing wrong or surprising about that. And as Viewfinder points out, when you're being attacked personally, as DP was by Barney, "it's very difficult to maintain the standards of neutrality that Wikipedia rightly demands." So DP's behavior is completely understandable. But an admin who's beginning to experience emotional involvement is compromised. He's no longer able to manage the situation dispassionately. An admin should be able to recognize the signs of his own rising emotions and voluntarily step back to let another admin take over. That didn't happen and it should have. Further, even if DangerousPanda doesn't dislike Barney, it's obvious Barney dislikes DP and that requiring Barney to submit unblock requests to DP is not helpful. Even if DP doesn't think that amounts to "knuckling under", it's pretty obvious Barney does. And it's just not needed. Barney needs to behave but he should be able to demonstrate that to any uninvolved admin. There's no reason it has to be DP.
6. As nom, I also would voluntarily agree to avoid interaction with the parties, namely, Bearcat, DangerousPanda and Barney, for the same 3 month period and for same reason, to allow healing. As Gamaliel correctly points out below, my bringing this to ANI has also stirred some emotions.

If we can agree to this, I think we can de-escalate and resolve the situation. Msnicki (talk) 15:17, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• This seems like a solution in search of a problem. This is all standard stuff that should happen or is happening anyway. Regardless of whatever potstirring may or may not have occurred, I see no evidence of continuing disruption on the part of DP or Bearcat which requires intervention or all this talk on this page. But I will support this proposal in order to bring this matter to a close, on the condition that the nominator also avoids any interaction with the parties or this matter for three months as well, as I feel that the vigorous pursuit of this matter has exacerbated a situation which would have come to a natural resolution on its own. Gamaliel (talk) 15:41, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Sure, NP. You make a good point. I've revised my proposal accordingly to incorporate your suggestion. Thank you. Msnicki (talk) 16:01, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Re: any "evidence of continuing disruption", what evidence would you expect? Barney is now completely blocked, even from his own talk page. Bearcat might have enjoyed potstirring when Barney could be provoked into another poorly-chosen response, but what would be the point now? And I wouldn't expect DP to be reviewing new unblock requests if Barney's not able to post them. The question is what happens if all we do is unblock Barney from his talk page. If we don't ask Bearcat and DP to avoid him, I think we're doing what didn't work last time and expecting a different result. Bearcat volunteered above that he would avoid Barney. I asked DP directly but he hasn't answered. I think it would be helpful to put this into an actual agreement, one that was Barney also could rely on in choosing his response. Msnicki (talk) 16:58, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Just as I think there's no reason to needlessly hammer on an editor for attacks made while they're blocked there is also little reason to enact some sort of ad hoc framework to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. If we can ask bearcat to ignore the personal attacks made we can surely ask barney to ignore the comments made on their page and get on with editing. I suspect DP will exercise their judgment in interaction w/ Barney--that's not a euphemism for "won't interact" but a statement that we should trust them enough to interact in a reasonable manner as judged by them, not a random AN/I discussion. Protonk (talk) 16:22, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose No problem exists here. The suggestion above is that I've somehow done something wrong, which consensus says otherwise. The sole person launching shyte all over the place is MsNicki who continues to make false claims, attribute false intentions, not just about me, but about other editors. IMHO Msnicki should be blocked for these continued unfounded, unproven personal attacks which she makes simply because she (as she already admits) refuses to actually read the entire situation. Neither Bearcat nor I have acted in any way uncivil, boorish, or inappropriately, as per continued consensus. If a block is going to get Msnicki to drop the WP:STICK and go back to what they do best, then great. BtBB's way forward has already been set in stone. Close this farce and move on people the panda ₯’ 19:17, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, I'm saying your choices weren't very good and that I thought they were adversely affected by your emotions. I don't blame, dislike or disrespect you for any of that. I get mad, too, like everyone else, so I know how my decisions become compromised when my emotions are running high. This is what it means to be human. But I thought your escalation to blocking Barney even from his own user page was too fast and that your defense of Bearcat's posts was unhelpful and I suspect your emotions were an unhelpful factor in how it played out.

Fundamentally, my complaint isn't that you did anything wrong, it's that you didn't perform very well. You started with a routine situation involving two otherwise productive people who'd been fighting over something apparently quite unimportant, one of whom had now crossed the line into silly playground personal attacks. Eleven days later, you'd escalated it into a situation where one of those editors will likely never be back. The successful outcome should have been, the behavior problems have ended and both those editors are now productive again. Sure, you could argue, that's all on Barney. But it's not. As the admin, you were the manager of this people problem and it's reasonable to ask, can you solve a people problem like this or not. Here's one that only got worse, the longer you worked on it. Frankly, as soon as you knew Barney disliked you so intensely, that alone should have been a reason to hand him off to someone else, even if only so that Barney could know for sure that what was happening to him wasn't personal and he really did need to shape up. But I think Barney probably got to you with his insults and that's why you couldn't give it up and why you were so inclined to support Bearcat's actions even though obviously they were torpedoing any chance you had of a successful outcome. When I asked you to reconsider the talk page block, you blew me off. That's why we're here. When I asked (above) if you'd now be willing to walk away, you didn't answer. That's why we're still here. Msnicki (talk) 21:17, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I didn't answer above because I told you in advance that I wouldn't due to your continued false statements, personal attacks, and bullshit which you've merely rephrased and repeated above. I have more than once disproven your "emotion"; you call Bearcat's post "unhelpful" when it's been shown by both a good reading AND by consensus to be otherwise; I have no knowledge nor understanding that BtBB "dislikes me intently", nor do you have such confirmation - it's not inherent in any of the written words so far, so we cannot assign background "hatred" to anything; what you NEGLECT is that I once already returned his talkpage access, and returning access led to BtBB escalating his attacks - even you have admitted that you have refused to read the actual DISCUSSION that led to his block. You jumped in mid-situation, read the entire situation wrong. CONSENSUS through multiple discussions has said otherwise, yet you continue to refuse to drop the stick and and gigantic chip on your shoulder. BtBB's block AND removal of talkpage access has been determined by the community to be valid; Bearcats comments and ability to comment have been confirmed by the community - now you're simply attacking Bearcat and I, hoping that some shit will stick - modifying your words, and modifying the locus of blame to where it doesn't exist does not make for some special kind of velcro. Cut it out, becausr this bullshit harassment has got to stop the panda ₯’ 21:27, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Really? You're not sure how Barney feels about you? Wasn't this a clue? Msnicki (talk) 21:35, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Never saw that before. Entertaining, but it appears that he removed it before anyone could see it. I don't get rattled, nor put stock in what someone says in the heat of the moment and then remove after rethinking; it's continual insults like yours that rattle me :-) the panda ₯’ 21:45, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

The proposal I've put on the table is that we all just walk away. If we have an agreement, I am done. There won't be anything continuing from me. Barney becomes someone else's problem but he does get another try on his talk page with a different admin and less provocative conditions to do the right thing.

(Barney, if you're reading this, you need to know that I'll be really disappointed if I discover I've gone to this much effort, basically for a stranger I felt sorry for, and you blow it. If you get a second chance, you do need to do the right thing and move on. I won't feel sorry for you a second time.) Msnicki (talk) 22:19, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Your "proposal" is based on a bunch of lies, a bunch of incorrect readings, and a bunch of things that have been rejected again and again. Again, your harassment and personal attacks are unwelcome. Stop, and drop the stick. If anyone has damaged BtBB's case, it's you by screwing this up so royally. I have advise BtBB that I fully support them making their appeal to BASC or OTRS. Drop the stick. This is a massive blemish on what has been until this date a pretty stellar wikicareer for you...but this one has been a doozy that you could have avoided by a) reading, b) following process, c) re-reading the panda ₯’ 23:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

You've persisted in this and I've tried to ignore it. But I think it's time to remind you, as KonveyorBelt already tried, that per WP:NPA, "Accusing someone of making personal attacks without providing a justification for your accusation is also considered a form of personal attack." An admin who can't resist making personal attacks of his own doesn't seem to me like the best choice to manage people problems involving personal attacks by others. 00:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Not sure who this random person is, but you've solidified my point: MsNicki has cast aspersions again and again, has assigned emotions and motive where none existed, called people boors, and yet has never been able to link to a single place that proves her point - THOSE are clear violations of wP:NPA as you note above. All I've ever done is remind her every time she does it that it's a PA. As such, I have never levelled a single PA here. Thanks for clarifying it for everyone the panda ₯’ 09:01, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to jump in on either side, but personal attacks don't further your cause. KonveyorBelt 21:38, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose MsNicki keeps making blanket statements about how things "are" yet provides no evidence to back up these assertions. De-escalation has already occurred and, as stated more than once, BtBB has a way back to editing - it is called the WP:STANDARDOFFER. MarnetteD|Talk 19:41, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Sure, but that standard offer starts with demanding that Barney wait six months. I don't think that's justified. I'm asking that we dial back and let Barney try again under less provocative conditions to post a suitable unblock request on his own talk page now. He could turn around and blow this, in which case, you can bet I certainly won't be rushing back to his defense. But I think this is worth a try for an editor with a history of otherwise generally helpful contributions. Msnicki (talk) 19:50, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• I personally don't think that the standard offer is required. As I've said before, he can formulate his unblock request offline, submit it through WP:OTRS or even the Arbs unblock process (wasn't WP:BASC a way of doing this, or did they stop). Last time he was granted access to his talkpage, it didn't go well - we have no proof that's going to change. Using OTRS or BASC will allow him to create a WP:GAB-compliant request, realizing that he's going to have to abide by his promises - this cannot be empty words. Indeed, OTRS or BASC might add additional limitations/restrictions on unblock, but that's not my purview. Nobody has provoked BtBB for the last 2 weeks, so people need to actually read the entire set of exchanges, and STOP suggesting that there's anyone's actions "at fault" but their own. the panda ₯’ 20:04, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• I think at this point, we're better off letting BtBB form the unblock request offline, as this is out of the line, and when taken the rest of the matter into consideration, I can't help but to think that there's not enough assurance that similar attacks on editors won't repeat if we return the talk page access to BtBB. So unfortunately, I must vote no on point 1. The rest I'm neutral on. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 01:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

If Barney is unblocked from his own talk page and decides to use it for more bad behavior instead of doing the right thing, believe me, I'll be the first to ask that the block be reinstated. I'll be genuinely annoyed that I'll have wasted my time on someone so undeserving. But if the rest of this agreement is place, I think he'll do the right thing and I'd like to see him have the chance to show us. Msnicki (talk) 01:19, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• @Msnicki: - at least 1 person (i.e. Knowledgekid87) thinks that your first point meant an unblock when what you mean to say is restoring the talk page access. I think fixing that would definitely help. (To Knowledgekid87: If I make the assumption erroneously, you have the permission to WP:TROUT me. Or even {{whale}}.) - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 01:41, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for that suggestion. That's very helpful. I've added some additional clarification that I hope will help. Let me know what you think. Msnicki (talk) 02:29, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Why should Barney be given another chance here? I mean what is the difference between him and all of the other editors? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:46, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The difference is that this situation was managed far more poorly than usual. Where else have you seen someone who's just been blocked suffering long argumentative missives like this one on his own talk page, stirring the pot just 40 minutes after the second block? Bearcat should have known better and when apparently he didn't, DangerousPanda should have stepped up to manage the situation and discourage this behavior. Instead, DP endorsed that boorish behavior, yet still expected Barney to cool down enough to prepare a suitable unblock request for an admin he likely began to perceive as one of his main tormentors. This was never going to work and that wasn't Barney's fault alone. DP mismanaged what started out as a routine problem that should have been easy to solve and that part's not on Barney. That's what's different. Msnicki (talk) 03:30, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

More personal attacks - this situation was NOT managed poorly, in fact, as per consensus above, it was managed quite sanely. Repeating that I shouldn't have done something when the community says otherwise is improper. Just because you fucked this up and refuse to back down and eat crow does not mean I managed anything poorly - I gave BtBB a hell of a lot of rope, and he used it as I hoped he wouldn't. Stop questioning my competence (because that's a personal attack) when the community has determined otherwise. Again, this is harassment, so cut it out the panda ₯’ 09:01, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock - Based on the latest The unblock request, it is again attacking users and using the everybody but me wording. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:21, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - For the same reasons as given in the section above, in addition to this being another case where WP:INVOLVED is misunderstood. 'Involved' explicitly exempts administrative actions - including (but not limited to) blocks, warnings, and policy advice. If it's felt that an admin shouldn't be further handling a case where they have blocked someone, then those cases may or may not have merit, but waving the flag of WP:INVOLVED on them makes them invalid from the start. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:52, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• The policy says Warnings, calm and reasonable discussion and explanation of those warnings, advice about community norms, and suggestions on possible wordings and approaches do not make an administrator 'involved'.. What Msnicki got was That's the most ridiculous paragraph ever written in the English language. ... Give your head a shake if that's what you're really saying. I do not consider such discourse "calm and rational," and, as an editor in good standing, Msnicki deserves better. Administrator conduct states Administrators are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others.... Administrators should strive to model appropriate standards of courtesy and civility to other editors and to one another. ...Administrators should bear in mind that they have hundreds of colleagues. Therefore, if an administrator finds that he or she cannot adhere to site policies and remain civil (even toward users exhibiting problematic behavior) while addressing a given issue, then the administrator should bring the issue to a noticeboard or refer it to another administrator to address, rather than potentially compound the problem by poor conduct. NE Ent 19:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

There was quite obviously nothing wrong with that statement - Msnicki even dropped by my talkpage to discuss it because she too read something into it that was obviously not there. It was by no means uncivil, contained no personal attacks (indeed, it commented on CONTENT, and not the CONTRIBUTOR), but wholly questioned the LOGIC of her paragraph and personal attacks against me that by her own admission, was based on not-reading the entire situation that led to BtBB's sanctions. Thanks for playing though Ent ... usually you're better at doing your research, which is why I respect you the panda ₯’ 18:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yes. Another model display of deftness deafness in dispute resolution. I know I was satisfied, about the way NE Ent must also feel about now. It wasn't like you'd said something clearly rude, like "that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen". It wasn't at all like that. Msnicki (talk) 19:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

More insults or just sarcasm (or both)? English is not my first language, after all...sometimes I miss some of the nuances the panda ₯’ 08:57, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. Here is some advice I just posted to Barney's talk page. I realized that if my proposal was accepted, I would no longer be able to give him this advice. I should do it now. Msnicki (talk) 19:15, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Disruption of Wikiproject

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Not an issue for Administrators' noticeboard. Referred elsewhere

 – 1. Specific non-editor-behavior disputes between editors should be resolved on WP:dispute resolution pages. 2. Specific editor-behavior issues should be brought up individual editor talk pages and/or WP:Requests for comment/User conduct; e.g., this page is for incidents that need quick resolution. 3. The discussion, thus far, has no focus on which an administrator might take action (such as with a ban, block, page protection, whatever); e.g., the most that might be had would be a "be civil" or "stay on the topic of countering systemic bias". – S. Rich (talk) 17:00, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Regarding Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force ("GGTF"), it seems some editors believe that just because they may dislike or actively oppose some views, potential proposals or projects, and/or individuals who are part of a Wikiproject, it is acceptable to disrupt the project. They relentlessly badger individuals on the talk page with questions and criticisms, monopolize discussions, target and nitpick comments of active editors, or bait editors to angry retorts or sloppy mis-statements that invite further criticism.

I haven't seen this allowed on WikiProjects Countering systemic bias, LGBT, Gender Studies, Feminism, Disability or even WikiProjects Israel or Palestine or Islam. Yet it happens repeatedly at GGTF, despite requests by editors and administrators that it be stopped. On September 2 an editor started a thread "Disruption" noting the option of using WP processes. So here I am. Can we perhaps see a closing opinion that these activities are unacceptable per Wikipedia policies?

Also it would be helpful if someone could counsel effectively the three editors below who I believe have been particularly disruptive over the last month or so. (Note to all editors: To avoid off-topic requests for evidence of existence of/importance of gender gap/why women quit, etc., please see the Gender gap task force “Resources” page (draft) listing dozens of relevant research, news, Wikimedia/Wikipedia, etc. links.)

User:Eric Corbett

• Corbett’s views against civility policy were a major topic at this ANI complaint and this Wales talk page. Here Corbett states: "The fundamental error was in adding civility as one of the pillars". He obviously dislikes the GGTF's interest in promoting more civility.
• On Wales talk page Corbett opines there are no problems existing regarding gender gap issues[36],[37]. On his own talk page he opposes allowing "..strident feminists to run riot.."[38] and criticizes someone's alleged "prissy militant feminist friends".[39]
• Given his POV, it is no surprise that at the Wikiproject itself Corbett has, among other things: said "bullocks" about two women's opinions; hectored other editors for opinions; disputed WP:NOTAFORUM comments; presented a strawman argument; hectored some more; made personal attack on Jimmy Wales for promoting the Foundation's goal of increasing the number of women editors.

User:Two kinds of pork

• His first posting at GGTF criticizes someone's proposal as assinine and asks if it's a joke. Later at this diff he wonders if systemic bias exists - in a task force of Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias.
• At this diff he proposes the Foundation pay "high school aged girls in the Philippines" to edit to close the gap. And puts a similar "Pay to play" proposal on the main page. Not sure if he's serious, I revert, and he defends his proposal on the talk GGTF page.
• At this diff he started a derisive thread about a phrase that needed tweaking; SPECIFICO joined the hectoring. ( Whole thread archived here.) See also his response to an editor's complaints about "personal attacks and derailment in these discussions".

User:SPECIFICO

• SPECIFICO has been obsessively harassing/wikihounding me for over a year regarding various political differences: posting on my talk page, following me to articles, reverting me and/or negatively commenting on my edits or talk page comments. See these earlier complaints my warning 6/23/13; my 6/29/13 ANI; my complaint to an admin 10/31/13; SPECIFICO's 11/31/13 block for "interpersonal behavior" against me another editor filed at TPNO ANI; my warning on harassment 1/14/14; my later complaint to admin 1/14/14. See also an uninvolved editor's comment regarding SPECIFICO's harassment of me.
• I have tried to ignore the many more recent incidents; see just April 1-September 3, 2014 Interaction Analyzers Results with examples of his following me to 20 articles or pages he had not edited before and harassing me, sometimes repeatedly.
• Examples of constant and disruptive harassment at GGTF, which also disrupts the project: His first at GGTF supports a visiting editor's criticisms of me based on past disputes; here he criticizes an editor objecting to the two of them airing "grudges" against me; a put down of GGTF; hectoring demands not made of an editor who made similar general statements; dubious accusations of sexism in discussions of women at GGTF.
• On SPECIFICO's talk page last week an editor noted that that last GGTF edit was problematic. An admin asks SPECIFICO to cut me some slack, later to keep the page friendly, and later asks him to "staying away from Carol's posts". He writes "consider me on hiatus". But two days later the first editor again has to comment on new negative SPECIFICO comments at GGTF. And on Sept 3. SPECIFCO hectors me about an obvious joke about recruiting admins and writes "please consider departing the Project".

So the bottom line is, can editors be discouraged from engaging in this type of behavior at the Gender gap task force? There are eight other Wikiprojects related to women, so I think they'd also like to know. Thanks.

• Notifications to GGTF, Wikiprojects Countering Systemic Bias, Gender studies, Feminism and Jimmy Wales talk page. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 04:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Question: Were these three editors' comments directed specifically at you, or at the wikiproject in general? Cla68 (talk) 05:13, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

• My first reaction to seeing this thread opened about myself and others was I should probably not respond. I'm sure someone is going to tell me I should have gone with my gut. That being said, I'd like to address one of the "charges" against me that I was being disruptive asking if there really was "systemic bias". You will note in the diff above that I asked if there really was systematic bias. Systematic is not systemic, they mean quite different things. I clearly misread the word, and when someone pointed out to me, I apologized for my error. In this attempt to "get me" Carole conveniently forgot to include that little tidbit. The other diffs she presents (at least the ones I read about me) are similarly weak. If anyone wants me to elaborate on them further, I'll gladly do so. This ANI filing is a shining example of assuming bad faith on her part, which is a continuation of her behavior on the project's talk page.Two kinds of pork (talk) 05:49, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
• This has got to be one of the most biased and misleading AN/I| reports I've ever seen. To take just one example, Carol claims I opined that "there are no problems existing regarding gender gap issues". But as the diff she provides clearly shows I said nothing at all about any gender gap. What I actually said was "Where's the evidence for the existence of 'entrenched sexism' in WP?" How anyone could interpret asking that question to be disruptive is beyond me, but it sums up the attitude behind this report. Carol will make all sorts of claims on the flimsiest of evidence, or even none at all, and become aggressively feminist if anyone dares to challenge them. It is she who is disrupting the project, almost single handedly. Eric Corbett 08:03, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Could you say something about what you think would be the most useful approaches for the GGTF to take? Because looking at all the squabbling on that page ([40]), I see that you take vociferous issue with lots of things people are saying there, but I don't really see what your vision is of how the project should function. Andreas JN466 09:51, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
    • I have no vision for the project. What I take objection to is the repeated claims unsubstantiated by any evidence whatsoever, such as that there is "entrenched sexism" on WP, or that all male editors are "mad dogs" whose only agenda is to keep female editors downtrodden, and affirmative actions based on those straw men. Eric Corbett 10:13, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

      In the spirit of your own objections, I'd like to see some evidence that repeated claims that "all male editors are 'mad dogs'" have been made. BethNaught (talk) 10:39, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

      I didn't say that there were repeated claims that all male editors are mad dogs. What I said was that there were repeated unsubstantiated claims, and that was one of them. No doubt you already know where to look for the "mad dog" claim though, and who it was made by. Eric Corbett 10:46, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

      My apologies, I misinterpreted the syntax of your post. And after doing some digging, I found this – I think the point is distastefully made, certainly, but it says some men misbehave (and by analogy are so called dogs), but not all men. BethNaught (talk) 11:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

      • Goodness, Eric, you can find people who are wrong on the internet anywhere. You're not helping those people who are talking sense on that page by nitpicking every flawed statement made there. Andreas JN466 15:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
        • I would be if they were open minded, but clearly not all of them are. Eric Corbett 17:53, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Having perused the links provided and keeping the allogation in mind ("relentlessly badger individuals on the talk page with questions and criticisms, monopolize discussions, target and nitpick comments of active editors, or bait editors to angry retorts or sloppy mis-statements that invite further criticism.") I cannot say these are in any way supported by the evidence provided. Offering opposition, different or even opposing views, questions and criticisms does not constitute "badgering" or "monopolizing discussions". Critisizing claims of others is essential to any form of debate and if anyone is "baited" into "angry retorts" or "sloppy mis-statements" they have themselves to blame. I _do_ get the impression that carolmooredc somehow has the idea that anyone who disagrees with her is somehow at fault simply by disagreeing. This ANI-request includes the risk of a chilling effect on the discussion, which I think is detrimental to the issue at hand. Kleuske (talk) 11:05, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Concur with this assessment. Given the pattern of notifications (to include the drama-fest of Wales' talk page) I'd say that the warning about a chilling effect is spot on. Intothatdarkness 16:05, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Before people pile on here, I'd counsel that they read not only the diffs provided in the report but also the background to them. The reporter has an unfortunate tendency to misrepresent/skew events, to cherrypick and to canvass via point-y edit summary etc. Given the history, there isn't much chance that this episode is presented accurately. There are past instances where these problematic methods of the reporter have been mentioned at ANI but I'm off out now and have no time to search the history. Stuff relating to the Austrian economics/Mises palaver was probably the last occasion here. - Sitush (talk) 10:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd agree about the need for reading the diffs carefully and for further background reading, but for different reasons. I'm not saying its happening here, any more than, I expect, Sitush is suggesting that assertions regarding 'the Austrian economics/Mises palaver' are repeating, but for some, culturally, the idea that women make false claims and men are always just misunderstood can be the default. Everyone taking time to unpack their baggage (and privilege/s) on this is worthwhile. AnonNep (talk) 13:56, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

It's time that the three editors above were told that their opinions are plainly unacceptable to the community, and if they don't like it, they should get out. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:36, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Which community might that be? The one that tolerates lies and falsehoods, like your own? No doubt you feel emboldened in your crusade against me by Jimbo's ill-considered remarks at Wikimania 2014, but I've got news for you; I'll be here long after he's been ejected. Eric Corbett 11:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I didn't get an invite to Wikimania, so I have no idea what Jimbo said. Did he read the chief's speech? Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:19, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Eric's usual thin-skinned unearned arrogance aside, I'm not seeing the "plainly unacceptable" opinions -- or, for that matter, what makes them banworthy. For example, the above the list of charges includes [h]is first posting at GGTF criticizes someone's proposal as assinine and asks if it's a joke. Given that hethe editor was responding to this

Ought some "level" of protection be determined as applied affirmatively to women editors (for some useful period of a few months or even several months). For example, there could be an affirmative strengthening of registered women editors by requiring that two editors be required to form consensus before being allowed to revert edits placed by women editors. [emphasis mine]

that strikes me not so much an attack or "plainly unacceptable" opinion as it is an accurate assessment of the proposal. --Calton | Talk 14:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

An excellent proposal. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:05, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

If you seriously think that bit of "affirmative action" is an excellent proposal, you don't belong anywhere near this project. --Calton | Talk 03:01, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

How revealing that you choose to preface your remarks by making a personal attack on me, before deliberately misleading about who it was made the comment you quote. Eric Corbett 15:07, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Calton - asking for a special level of protection for one gender is not going to help fill the gender gap, it's going to create resentment and angst. That's going to do much more harm than good. Two kinds of pork's response was spot on.--v/r - TP 17:31, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Eric, Calton is praising you with faint damns, and does not mis-attribute the comment (he was responding to this). All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:23, 4 September 2014 (UTC).

How revealing that you choose to preface your remarks by making a personal attack on me... Revealing what, exactly? What extraordinary insight has been let slip here? Was there an actual content to that statement?

Your reaction, certainly, is revelatory, in that it demonstrates once again your hysterical hypersensitivity and usual bad-faith misreading of others's remarks (which I have edited to remove the ambiguity you chose to misinterpret/twist to your ends) coupled with an overweening ego about your value to and role in Wikipedia. But this is not news, and my comment was aimed at those well-aware of your ways, so they wouldn't dismiss, out of sheer cussedness, the actual content of your remarks. --Calton | Talk 02:58, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Hawkeye7, it doesn't help the situation to make such a statement. You are openly hinting that some editors should be shown the door, without even a shred of evidence. You assert that some opinions are unacceptable. Which ones. Do you mean the opinion that editor making charges of sexism should provide evidence? Is that an unacceptable opinion? If not that one, which one? It is impossible to respond to vague accusations.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:41, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Hawkeye7 was desysopped after blocking Eric whilst involved and wheel-warring (not to mention making snarky comments after blocking him). It is unsurprising that he would pop up here and equally unsurprising what his viewpoint on Eric would be. Black Kite (talk) 17:55, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

That is incorrect. I was not WP:INVOLVED and nobody said I was. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:05, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

What? You weren't desysopped for blocking Eric Corbett? Someone had better go correct the record, then, otherwise they might think that you are leaping into a faracs of which you have no other involvement merely so you can get your digs in at an old enemy. --Calton | Talk 03:05, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Asking questions is not disruptive. Disagreeing is not disruptive. Refusing to answer with blustering and obfuscation might be disruptive as might misconstruing requests to reply as personal attacks. Some editors on that page really don't help their perceived gender gap cause and they aren't the ones mentioned by the editor who brought this here. There might be some good sense written on that page but it is well hidden and some views certainly need challenging. I would disagree with any positive discrimination towards women. Not all women would support such a pov. What wikipedia needs is competency not pov pushing. J3Mrs (talk) 15:32, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

  I completely agree. As you will know from personal experience, I've collaborated with many female editors on articles, so much so that I really find it difficult to believe that there are supposedly so few female editors. I can't recall even a single occasion when I've been berated by a female editor for not taking her opinion or efforts seriously or whatever simply because she's female, which is one of the reasons why I find this AN/I report so insulting. Carol frequently attacks male editors simply because they're male, but I've never done anything even remotely comparable. Eric Corbett 18:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Note to @Carolmooredc, supporting evidence for editor misconduct is best left to the diffs representing their conduct, not diffs showing your reporting of their misconduct. The section on SPECIFICO is littered with such links and it makes it difficult to suss out the actual pattern you're alleging. Protonk (talk) 15:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• The purpose of a Wikiproject is for editors to work together to achieve a common goal. If an editor attempting to be involved in the project does not actually share that common goal (i.e. addressing the gender gap), then that editor should not participate. If some editors are involving themselves with the wikiproject solely to disrupt it or to prevent it from achieving anything of value, or if their participation is having that effect, then they should be topic banned. There are plenty of other things for them to do, after all. 192.240.41.254 (talk) 17:54, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

  But the question is, who's doing the disrupting? My contention would be that it's the editor who filed this report, which is really doing no favours to those who genuinely feel that the gender gap here on WP ought to be addressed. Carol is riding on the back of the project to further her personal feminist agenda, hence her unsubstantiated claims of "entrenched sexism" here on WP, which is one of the things I was complaining about. Eric Corbett 18:17, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

  You've provided more that enough evidence of entrenched sexism here on WP. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:22, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

  I'm really surprised that you've not been blocked yet. Eric Corbett 22:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Srich32977, I started to ping Carolmooredc and bring your suggestion (to start an RfC/U) to her attention,[41] but first, I reviewed WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE. It says that ANI is one of the two DR processes for conduct disputes. I believe that her request on this page is absolutely appropriate, especially considering the behavior Eric Corbett has engaged in today. He has repeatedly questioned editors in Gender gap task force discussions even though it is clear he has no constructive input for that project. I have suggested at least twice today that he disengage, but he keeps on.

I agree with Carolmooredc that an Administrator should review the conduct of the editors she has listed. Lightbreather (talk) 01:19, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I've witnessed Eric's interactions and collaborations with female editors over the years and I find the claims that he is sexist completely false. In fact quite the opposite, most of his work or interactions to me have seemed to have been with female editors and he seems to get on very well with them. What appears to irritate him is that people think that gender identity really matters in building an encyclopedia and he clearly finds it insulting that the foundation and whoever seem to want female editors at the expense of male editors. I think that is what is bothering him the most and he's sick of seeing the gender inequality argument on here. Personally I think a higher number of female editors on here would be a good thing, but like Eric I've never seen a gross lack of female editors on here as if it's a rarity to encounter a female editor. Like Eric, a good proportion of my collaborations and interactions have seemed to have been with female editors, but I never thought that their gender identify really affected the quality of work.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:48, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Evidence of disruption from Evergreen Fir

• I am happy to see that this issue has finally be brought up. The talk page on WP:GGTF has been particularly plagued by polemic and disruptive comments by some editors. Of particular concern to me is Eric Corbett who has repeatedly engaged in personal attacks and general FORUM behavior. While no single edit was particularly egregious, their sum shows a pattern of incivility, disrespect, and disruptive behavior as well as the edit summaries. While he did relent a bit after I gave him a warning ([42]) (which he dismissed as "nonsense") and the resulting "conversation" on my user talk page, his actions continued. Eric appears to have a history of personal attacks judging by his extensive block log.

FORUM behavior and incivility

[43]

[44]

[45]

[46]

[47]

[48] ("feminist bluster")

[49] (see edit summary as well)

[50] (always has to have the last word)

[51]

[52]

[53] ("anti male editors")

[54] (forum)

[55] (commenting on other editors)

[56] (forum)

[57] (thinly veiled comment to Carol)

[58] ("launching a crusade the primary purpose of which appears to be to alienate every male editor by imposing a series of affirmative actions")

[59] (Accusing project of "hyperbolic rhetoric")

Personal attacks and harassment toward Carolmooredc and others

[60]

[61]

[62]

[63]

[64]

[65] (see Carol's comment above for context)

Of the 42 edits Eric has made on WP:GGTF's talk page, his only mildly constructive edit to date is to ask for clarification on an issue: [66]. Frankly either a topic ban on gender-related issues, a project ban, and/or interaction ban with Carolmooredc for Eric Corbett seems to be appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:37, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• You really shouldn't need to depend on Eric's block log to make your point. Frankly, his block log is controversial because any admin can accuse him of poor behavior and hit the block button and it stays there permanently. Not that I agree with that view, but that's the view.

  Your evidence in the forum and incivility section is plainly dull and uneventful. You accuse Eric of a whole lot of incivility but what you've displayed amounts to disagreeing with editors on that page. You seem to be of the opinion that editors are allowed to create Wikiprojects to push a POV without being criticized. Again, not that I disagree with the POV but it's still a POV.

  Frankly, what you've shown is that the project is so thinned skinned that perhaps the participants there are not qualified to operate a project as controversial as this one with the care and delicacy required not to alienate men and cross the line into militant feminist behavior.--v/r - TP 19:53, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

  So the answer is that women just need to shut up and not offend the fragile egos of misogynist male editors? Need I add that opinions like this are morally repugnant, and have no place here. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

  • What is morally repugnant is that you feel it is appropriate to call male edits misogynists with fragile egos and that you think opposing piss poor examples of personal attacks equates to 'women just need to shut up'. Radical feminism has no place on a NPOV project anymore than MRM does. If that's what you propose to 'fix' Wikipedia, then you have no place here either. Proposals such as this are so far from equality and a respectable environment and if you are for equality then you should be equally outraged. Furthermore, you are committing the same issues that caused several editors to be topic banned in the Manning naming dispute. Please correct your personal attacks before you are likewise topic banned.--v/r - TP 20:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Well behaved women rarely make history - or change male dominated editing environments. And you don't have to consider yourself a feminist to comment about sexism, gender gaps, etc. You can just be an annoyed woman. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:17, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Tparis, I'm too lazy too google the source, but a quote from my college days that always stuck in my mind seems a fitting rebuttal at the moment; "feminism is the radical notion that women are people." Tarc (talk) 20:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

So then are you for equality and truth or do you believe that [67] and [68] are attacks? I support feminism, I support equality. I also support truth. Fight the fight, but do it on honest grounds. EvergreenFir has presented some really poor evidence to support their accusation.--v/r - TP 20:27, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

TParis, your language is a bit... much. You are accusing the entire project of "militant feminism" and being "thin skinned". You are welcome to disagree with me, but please avoid polemics (I know I'm doing my best to do so). Eric's block log is simply supporting evidence of a pattern of behavior. While I agree that admin discretion may be an issue, there seems to be multiple admins who have come to the same conclusion. Again, no single edit is particularly egregious, though some are clearly personal attacks and FORUM. However, the sum of the edits clearly demonstrates disruption and incivility. To reiterate, only 1 of his 42 edits were truly constructive. Eric is "NOTHERE" when it comes to the project. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:03, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not accusing the project of militant feminism. I'm concerned that some of the tactics have been used. In any case, perhaps you're right that I cast my net a little wide. Certainly the whole project isn't like that. In any case, EvergreenFir, it's is by your definition that only 1/42 of Eric's edits were constructive. Eric considers them all constructive. I read Eric comments and I find that when he points out inconsistencies or lack of evidence, that's being constructive. As you may have gathered from the comment you are replying to just above, I'm concerned that we 'get it right' from start to end. Evidence needs to be clear, substantial, and without bias. That hasn't happened here from you and certainly not from CarolmooreDC. What I see is appropriate responses to this proposal being removed from context and then paraded here as if they are inappropriate. If anyone here can read "there could be an affirmative strengthening of registered women editors by requiring that two editors be required to form consensus before being allowed to revert edits placed by women editors" without seeing clear sexism - then they are incapable of participating in a project promoting equality and bridging a gender gap. Do you agree?--v/r - TP 21:13, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

(ec) TParis - Eric's edits were by-and-large commenting on his opinions of the competency of other editors, thinly veiled personal attacks, and overall disparagement of the project itself. As I've heard here and on the ARBCOM clarification request, context matters. The context of these edits show clear disdain for Carol and the project and their tone is incivil and unconstructive. If Eric truly wishes to help the project be questioning various things, he is perfectly able to do so in a neutral and civil way. But he hasn't and doesn't. I understand we all get annoyed, upset, or angry sometimes and may be rude and incivil when our emotions flare. And those are excusable so long as it's not egregious. But Eric has demonstrated a moderate but consistent level of this behavior from the beginning. While rudeness is not a block/bannable offense on WP, this is above and beyond that. Frankly I wondered if I should whittle down the examples to only show the most most clear cut cases, but I am trying to show a pattern of unacceptable behavior. It is, at the very least, disruptive. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:30, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

If I were you, I'd only have used the parts that demonstrate attacks on Carol (not because she's a woman but because she is a person). The rest looks like mud slinging and it doesn't make your point at all. In fact, it makes the opposite point as I say above.--v/r - TP 21:39, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I am attempting to show the larger picture. I separated out the personal attacks for that reason however. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:46, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

[Insert: Just noticed this question to me. I comment in my reply below that I removed the proposal by a guy myself. If it was brought up for discussion in an identifiable and civil manner, I would have said it was really dumb and would just bring back lash. I don't know if Eric linked to it at the time, but when I see obnoxiously phrased comments by people who think it's just great to throw around nasty words about women, I tend to ignore what the comments are about. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:27, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't a question directed at you, but thank you for addressing it. Yes, you were responsible for removing it. You did it under a pretense other than what it was, but you removed it nontheless. Whom it was added by, male or female, doesn't quite matter. What matters is that it was added for awhile as one of the project's goals and that's a REAL concern that some elements of the project are only marginally connected to bridging a gender gap.--v/r - TP 21:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• I totally agree with T Paris. There is nothing misogynistic about disagreeing and requesting answers. Demanding that editors conform to unrealistic demands in order to edit a project page is ridiculous. Counting edits and displaying them out of context achieves nothing except possibly avoids scrutiny of the rest of the page. Not all women editors hold the views exhibited by some editors here. J3Mrs (talk) 21:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

As studies show if people bother to read them, the big civility/gender gap issues are a) that women don't want to deal with a lot of harsh comments directed at them and see them as "attacks" while males may not; and b) there is a double standard where women who make even slightly impolite comments are seen as attacking others, sometimes in absurdly trumped up accusations. (The diffs I could share.) Given proper provocation, I would LOVE to be able to throw the snotty comments around as often as Eric does, but I know I'd be in big trouble if I did. Because I got in some trouble a few times when I slipped up.

Guys like Eric need to learn to control themselves in company that is supposed to be civil per the editing agreement we have with Wikipedia under the Terms of Service which are at the bottom of each page. Peer pressure is the best way to do that. So hopefully his more civil peers will continue to pressure him - and others of his ilk. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:21, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

@J3Mrs: I am not arguing that any editor is overtly misogynistic. I am attempting to demonstrate a pattern of disruptive and incivil behavior. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:31, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

No you are trying to suppress what you consider to be dissent. J3Mrs (talk) 21:36, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

@J3Mrs: No. Also, please avoid accusations. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:44, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I think what J3Mrs is trying to say is that this whole ANI complaint is coming off as a kind of "Boy's club" type of ordeal where only those who are rank and file are allowed to join. Whether that is true or not, that is exactly what this looks like.--v/r - TP 21:53, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Another personal attack against Carolmooredc by Eric: [69] (see edit summary). Pinging: TParis. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:15, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
• And one against Neotarf: [70] EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:21, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I just don't see the personal attack in either of those diffs. I can't get onboard sanctioning editors, and God and everyone here knows I dislike Eric, without solid evidence and that ain't it.--v/r - TP 06:26, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

@TParis: "Carol's ravings" and telling users they are stupid are a personal attack and incivil last I looked. Perhaps I should just start a separate ANI for this one issue. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 15:25, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

To me the biggest problem is that these guys join the project and make a lot of angry criticisms and ask a lot of questions, sometimes the same ones over and over, and expect to be spoon fed the answers on demand. If editors interested int he project discuss general points that may come from different articles or studies, things that might be worked into an essay, for example, they demand references now. I present them with all these articles and studies to read and learn about the issue, but they keep badgering others to do their work. (Tonight people started badgering Eric to prove his points, and I don't think there are any studies proving them.) We all have lives and can't spend hours a day answering every confabulation of dissent that may enter their minds, while real work is thrown to the wayside. That's why disruption is the big issue. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:15, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I didn't notice anyone "badgering" me to prove anything, as I've made no points, simply asked questions and drawn attention to flawed logic. I note your interesting double standard though. You approve of me being badgered but come crying here if you feel that you've been badgered. Eric Corbett 15:31, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Carolmooredc, your "real work" seems mostly to be an extension of real-life activism, as anyone who trawls through older versions of your user page could figure out. Whether that is justified here is sometimes moot, especially since often what you say does not actually agree with what your alleged evidence says or is let down by obviously poor evidence (eg: very small samples). That said, you are one of the most repetitive (and sometimes tendentious) contributors I know of when it comes to arguments, including some stylistic things such as a tendency to canvass and to promote your opinion by insisting on section breaks just for your comments. And that said, the nature of Wikipedia is that much of it is repetitive stuff unless the contributor sticks to article creation, when the repetition is mostly confined to setting out the structure and certain templates. I, for example, sometimes wish there was a one-click button for a selection of edit summaries via Twinkle's revert AGF function: please see WP:V, please see WP:RS, please see User:Sitush/Common#Castelists etc, and for certain talk page comments. You've been here a long time and despite the faux naivety, you should perhaps have realised this by now. We should all praise the bot writers for making it less repetitive than it might otherwise be. - Sitush (talk) 05:50, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Carolmooredc

1. Srich32977 is way too biased [clarify per request: from a year of nitpicking me and trying to shape my editing behavior] to be posting notices effectively chasing people away from this thread. I've had to ban him from my talk page at least twice for nitpicking. I think a neutral admin should decide if that note belongs there. Or can I just remove it myself, given his obvious [clarify: compulsive nitpicking] biases?
2. Second, I see all sorts of accusations that I think or wrote this, that or the other, but not many diffs. Aren’t we supposed to present diffs here??
3. Note to: Eric Corbett: “Sexism” - of whatever kind - is a gender gap-related issue all through society and here at Wikipedia. Note to Two Kinds of Pork: you were confused by systematic vs. systemic. You were in a project on "countering systemic bias in wikipedia" so your comments looked to some of us like clueless nitpicking, at best, hostile at worst. And constant nitpicking inevitably feels like harassment, not like an honest attempt to get a question answered, and thus is ignored. Think about it.
4. Above I mentioned Gender gap task force “Resources” page which took me a month to put together - among constant calls for "evidence" and mockery of my promises it would be contained in that page. It is chock full of evidence, commentary, etc. on various issues. Of course, when I announced it at the "Draft resources" entry on the talk page, there only was one reply from SPECIFICO. That gave me the impression there would be calls to remove much of the material. So today I realized the best thing would be to go through the sections one by one on the talk page. I started a relevant subsection. Maybe if Eric and Two kinds actually read some of that material they'll have a better idea of what editors familiar with gender gap issues have in mind for the project.
5. Re: the proposal temporarily on the main page that "two editors be required to form consensus before being allowed to revert edits placed by women editors". That was one male's entry which I took down as not discussed on the talk page; he never brought it there. I don't know if Eric bothered sharing a diff, but his hostile response re: "assinine" and "is this a joke" etc. did not invite serious discussion. Please don't knock a project about getting more women because a man put up a questionable proposal.
6. Re: vision is of how the project should function. Maybe I should have mentioned that the disruption by past posters, and especially lately the three mentioned, have made two women quit vocally. Several individuals with constructive ideas have just stopped posting. It's hard to create a visions with constant nitpicking of every constructive comment. Thus one is ends up only with the bickering an editor noted.
7. RE: posting on Jimbo Wales talk page. Coincidentally as we were trying to reboot the GGTF, there were a number of relevant discussions of gender gap issues at Jimbo Wales talk page. See recent archives 167, 168, 169 indicating he thinks civility and its relation to the gender gap are important issues. And his comment in reply to my notification of the ANI indicates he did not mind the posting.
8. FYI, I added a note about this ANI to WikiProject_Council's discussion of this issue I initiated August 11th. Over the years I've seen what I subjectively consider problematic and even horrific comments, proposals, and bids for support on a few Wikiprojects. I would have liked to criticize them, but I rarely did so because I thought it was unacceptable. So I am trying to gauge here what level of critique non-members, or even people skeptical of some of the aims or views of a project, can put into a Wikiproject, per community consensus. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:44, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The usual TlDR, then? I've read your last point and am mystified. Projects are not members-only clubs - Sitush (talk) 21:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

1. You have years of experience here. You know that you cannot remove someone els's comment here.
2. Diffs are good. I'd like to see more people supporting claims with diffs
3. As has been pointed out, sexism may be related to gender gap, but it is not the same thing. I've asked for examples of sexism. Other than the Filipacchi incident, which is more nuanced than some results, I haven't seen any examples of sexism.
4. I think the Resources page is a great page. It has lots of useful resources, and is very helpful. There is a lot of information abut gender gap, but much I knew already. I'm interested in the allegation of sexism, but when I ask I am pointed to the resources page, and I don't see the examples. I am sure they exist, but I've searched and haven't found them. There are a lot of links on the page, maybe I haven't clicked the right one, but after going through 30 or 40 and finding nothing, I gave up.
5. The proposal was a joke. Why is it wrong to point it out? We can't be sure whether it would have been removed anyway, but it is at least plausible that it was removed because it was pointed out to be a joke.
6. You keep asserting that three individuals are disrupting, but that's a claim in dispute. I've looked at the contributions of two of the three, and do not see the disruption by them.
7. I agree
8. I'm not sure I fully follow, but if you are suggesting that there are member only groups on-wiki, that is not supposed to be the case.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand the big freakout about groups. There are all kinds of groups here, for instance, look at the membership list on Wikipedia:WikiProject Infoboxes. What is it about groups with women that makes people want to puke all over their project page. I also don't understand the constant demands for links about sexism. Who cares? The group is about gender gap, why do people who don't want more participation by women be allowed to repeatedly make all these off-topic demands. Also my understanding was the proposal, that was made by a man, and framed as a possible topic for discussion, was not meant as a joke, it was a response to a specific research topic about the frequency of reversions of women's edits compared to men's edits. There is a link to one study further down-thread, if you can find it in this mess. And that is the real issue: people who oppose the participation of women who are disrupting the project, to the point where these content discussions become impossible. —Neotarf (talk) 17:14, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Warn Carolmooredc (talk · contribs)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

IMO this filing is atrocious. Perhaps I'm a bit biased because I'm the target, but as I see above others agree there is no merit in any of her claims. Carole frequently threatens to take the whatever the issue du jour is to Arbcom, ANI, Wales in what has so far has been a fruitless attempt to silence those that disagree with her. I propose we give her a warning that the next frivolous filing will be met with a ban from initiating by herself or proxy to these "tattling" venues.Two kinds of pork (talk) 17:35, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Let someone unattached to this propose something.--v/r - TP 17:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The only person who can really ban someone from Jimbo's talk page is Jimbo. Similarly, Arbcom might feel that the decision over whether someone can file an arbitration request is one that should be reserved for Arbcom, rather than also available to the community. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• I am in some sympathy with Two kinds of pork's suggestion above. I feel we have seen several previous unevidenced complaints from this editor. Asking for evidence to support an assertion is not inherently a hostile act. Calling an asinine suggestion asinine is not a personal attack. At some point we have to weigh up who is generating the disruption here. At the very least CaroleDC needs to be reminded not to CaroleDC should not come here with vague complaints without proper evidence, and should not forum-shop (eg at User talk:Jimbo). Perhaps there are other ways we can help her, but coming here every few weeks to seek unspecified sanctions against editors on the strength of vague and poorly-supported allegations simply will not do. --John (talk) 17:49, 4 September 2014 (UTC) edited slightly --John (talk) 20:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: While I believe that the filing was not particularly well done, and fired a shotgun at some of the wrong people, it was not frivolous. Carol has trouble distinguishing between attacks on her personally and attacks on women generally or women's projects generally (which IS a problem here there are trolls about, definitely). She also has trouble making her case clearly. Case in point: me: She didn't like what I had to say at the task force page - I made some pointed comments on how the project is not particularly well organized, has some really useless ideas about how to increase civility, and is generally shooting itself in the foot - and when she crriticized my comments, in doing so she also accused me of being male. (Which I am not, though I don't make a big deal about it) So, she is a messenger that has a thin skin and a misunderstanding of how wikipedia operates. But, that is NOT a sanctionable offense. It also would send a message that ANI is somehow "against women." You don't want to go there - that's as much a no-win as trying to sanction Corbett for incivility. I have sympathy with her legitimate frustration at some of the people who do troll that page and cause disruption. Pork and Specifico have not been a net positive to the gender gap project, and Corbett is, well, Corbett - and he got tossed some red meat. So no - a warning is NOT appropriate here. Drop the stick. Maybe someone sympathetic to her views and goals could just talk to her and see if she is open to mentoring. She identifies a true problem; she just isn't formulating an appropriate solution. Montanabw^(talk) 19:36, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm inclined to agree with Montanabw. I have amended my comment accordingly. --John (talk) 20:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Carol's filing of this report was indeed frivolous and pointed, unless you can point to any evidence at all that I am in any way biased against female editors. I look forward to seeing what you can come up with. Eric Corbett

Yes, banning Carole from filing at ANI will send a message that ANI is somehow "against women". And I'm done, here. Carole is making her own bed. If anyone thinks I need to respond, please ask on my talk page.Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: I think there is more that enough evidence in the above discussion that ANI is against women. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:16, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Opposing flimsy evidence on the basis that some editors disagree with the project's opinions is not "against women". It's against accusations without evidence.--v/r - TP 20:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - "When all else fails, attack the messenger" is all this is. Tarc (talk) 20:18, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose
• # This is not frivolous, it represents a sincerely held belief.
• # It is better that these discussions take place here than on the GGTF pages.
• # Even if Carol is wrong, raising these issues needs to be done to clear the air.
• # It is useful for people (including Carol) to see how their comments are taken. Without drawing the teeth of the argument it is usually possible to remove the offensive part.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:39, 4 September 2014 (UTC).

• Oppose Warning/banning Carol here will not solve anything, her concerns appear to be valid. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:45, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strongest Possible Oppose I agree that Carol doesn't yet know how to get the results she wishes on Wikipedia. She approached the problem in the wrong way. That doesn't mean she's wrong. Rhetoric is not truth: having a "good" (ie. superficially logical) argument doesn't mean you're right. Any good debater could construct an unimpeachable argument that black is white, but that still doesn't make it so. --NellieBly (talk) 21:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Rich who has the singularly best viewpoint in this entire discussion.--v/r - TP 22:05, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Lacking a civility board, this is where we're supposed to bring these issues. Lightbreather (talk) 22:59, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Someone should WP:SNOWCLOSE this section. —Neotarf (talk) 23:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Result?

I just want to ask what do editors want as a result of this huge discussion? How can we move forward to a solution rather than just talking about who did what? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:10, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• What I'd like to see is shared respect and open mindedness toward gender equality and creating a welcoming environment for all new editors. What I think we're actually getting is simple venting.--v/r - TP 22:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

  With a straight face, you go from 'so thinned skinned that perhaps the participants there are not qualified to operate a project as controversial as this one with the care and delicacy required not to alienate men and cross the line into militant feminist behavior'[71] to Kumbaya and anyone who disagrees is 'simple venting'. I mean, really? AnonNep (talk) 22:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

  Yes, indeed. I believe the question is "what do we want" and not "what do we have." You're doing a fair good job exemplifying what we have, thank you.--v/r - TP 23:05, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• So why add to 'what we don't want' if that's how you believe things should end up? AnonNep (talk) 23:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Because I'm human and I struggle with the same flaws that the people I am criticizing deal with. That doesn't change what my ideal is, though, and I'd like to see it from myself. Which is exactly what I said to EvergreenFir in this comment when I said he was right.--v/r - TP 23:28, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

  Someone recently said that words cannot be examined apart from their context. As I recall the context of that comment, the gentleman who made it was responding to a study that found female editors were statistically more likely to be reverted than male editors. As I recall, the suggestion didn't get any traction, but I don't think someone should be accused of misandry or discouraged from throwing out ideas for fear of being dragged off to some tribunal. If you still find the comment offensive when examined in context, perhaps you would like to take a stab at solving that problem. —Neotarf (talk) 00:09, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

  Did the study determine whether the reverts had merit or not? That would seem to be pertinent.--v/r - TP 01:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

  I don't have a clue, why don't you ask the guy who put it there. But just offhand it sounds similar to the concept of using 3 admins, and including a female admin to close on a gender-related case. The general principle might tweaked a little for deletion discussions with some gender component as well. Since you seem to be interested, why don't you start a discussion over there, you might have some useful input--I wouldn't advise you to try it though until those three find a different topic to get interested in. Now that I think of it, I don't believe the number of reverts had any significant impact on retention for either male or female editors, but it still might be worth kicking the concept around a little bit more to see if there anyplace it might fit. You might also want to find some of these studies and have them in front of you instead of depending on my memory--it's likely to be more accurate and give a broader picture. —Neotarf (talk) 01:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

  The study Neotarf is referring to is this one, I believe. The substance of the reverted edits was not examined, except indirectly by discounting reversions that were "for the purpose of repairing damage or vandalism". 92.4.167.191 (talk) 15:11, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

  That could be it, but it doesn't look familiar. But the point of this ANI is not about specific content, the point is that these content discussions have become impossible because of constant disruptions. —Neotarf (talk) 15:59, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I think many of us struggle with those flaws (I certainly do). It takes bravery to admit it. Even more to try and get those who admit nothing at all to begin to for the good of WP. AnonNep (talk) 23:38, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• What we have are editors blaming other editors this has gone on for awhile now everyone can see how far we are getting from that (or not). Admin can step in and topic ban/block editors here but what I think needs to happen is that both sides need to step back here and work out something. Or are some here going to go with the WP:ROPE approach? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:10, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

This is ANI:Incidents, when do we not have editors blaming editors? But because this involves men it is special? Or does it involve special men? Can you clarify? AnonNep (talk) 23:26, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Where did you get men out what I said? Both sides to the conflict, nothing is one sided even if small there are always two sides to a story. Yeah editors have blamed other editors that part is above, my question is what now? Is there a workable solution? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:28, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

So, based on the other side of the story, whatever that may be, what are you suggesting in the 'results' section other than general banhammer? AnonNep (talk) 23:44, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Certain editors appear to have joined the project, or are commenting on the talk page, to cause problems, and specifically to bait Carol. It's obviously making Carol nervous and unsure of herself, so she's responding in a way that perhaps attracts more of it. This is a common pattern. I'm not familiar with the men's rights issues on WP, but there seems to be an overlap with that, at least with a few of the editors.

  A good result of this discussion would be simply that they take the hint and stop it, and that other people on the page help to stop it as soon as it starts, even if they disagree with Carol (or at least please don't say anything that might keep it going). I've been archiving some of the threads quickly, but I don't want to be archiving interesting posts, so it's hard to know what to do when good threads deteriorate. I'm therefore appealing to the editors who are doing it please just to stop. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:29, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• I Agree with Slim here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:35, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
• Completely disagree. This isn't an issue that effects one individual. Don't personalise it any more than the critics are. AnonNep (talk) 23:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Is there a place in the Gender gap task force for "I really couldn't care less whether or not more women are recruited. I'm here because I think that too many of you have got your heads up your proverbial arses, attacking windmills that are simply mirages" - link types of mindsets? If one's beliefs are so diametrically opposed to the aims of a wiki project, then they really shouldn't post there at all. If thy won't cease voluntarily, then it may be time for a topic-ban discussion. Tarc (talk) 23:39, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Tarc if you are looking for topic bans there is always the WP:ROPE argument, admin cant do it alone though just like police cant patrol every inch of the city on any given night, editors have to help as well by talking on talk pages, informing the ANI board on a case by case basis. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• I have somehow gotten this project on my watchlist and for the last week have not been able to believe the stuff I have seen coming across my watchlist. This is supposed to be a project started to welcome new users and to encourage diversity, a goal that has long had formal support from the foundation. In the last hour alone, someone has stated "I'm here because I think that too many of you have got your heads up your proverbial arses" and posted an edit summary saying "can you read". Several people have posted to the project asking to have the disruption shut down, but various requests to individuals have not met with any success. Most of the commenters to the project are actually male, so it does not actually seem very successful at welcoming female editors at this point, but most of the comments are really quite well informed, except for the three individuals mentioned in the original request. Perhaps those three individuals would voluntarily agree to stay away from the project. I can't imagine, say, a disco project where someone was allowed to inject "disco sucks" comments into every thread. If these individuals want to discourage diversity, they should start their own "increase the gender gap" project. —Neotarf (talk) 23:45, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
• Editing in projects is like living together, if you can not tolerate each other then either A. Some people need to find other areas on Wikipedia to work on. or B. Topic bans. I do not think anyone wants it to come down to this but to me it seems like a take the hint or action result here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

  I agree. Carol should leave the project because of her disruptive behaviour. Eric Corbett 23:56, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

  Eric we just had a discussion about this above, Carol is not going to leave, That does not mean I believe she is 100% innocent but per consensus she has not shown to have done anything to warrent this type of response. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:59, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to see anyone blocked/banned. The 'take a hint' makes sense towards those who will have plenty of time to discuss these down the track. This group isn't making WP Policy and doesn't need warrior behavior against it. If you can contribute, without disrupting/derailing, then do, if not then let the discussion progress to the point it reaches your usual WP forums. To become policy, or anything serious, it eventually will. AnonNep (talk) 00:13, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

So are you all saying that I should have just done a separate Wikihounding ANI vs SPECIFICO. I was getting ready to but decided to fold these three together since disruption of the project was my larger concern. Or is Wikihounding ok now? Despite multiple requests he stop posting on my talk page, he did it twice today.[72], [73]. Considering he was blocked for linking to some psychotic's blog that included a comment that me and my family should be gassed, I really find his constant harassment rather repulsive. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:35, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• No wikihounding is not okay, a result of this discussion might be best in a block or interaction ban in these kinds of events. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:39, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Some guys just don't take the hint, a point rather eloquently delivered by Jessica Williams the other day. Repeatedly posting to one's talk page after a request to stop is harassment and grounds for a block. I never heard of the blog-linking thing, that sounds like something siteban-worthy. Tarc (talk) 00:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
• "So are you all saying that I should have..." - I let you tell everyone what I'm saying and leave it at that, comrade. AnonNep (talk) 01:10, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
• Carol, I don't always agree with everything you say and do, but there is no excuse for the way some of these guys talk to you and harass you. I absolutely support your coming here today, and I hope some admin looks this over and takes some ACTION. If you have asked SPECIFICO to stop posting on your talk page, he should stop. And the behaviors I'm seeing on the Gender gap task force talk page are disruptive, plain and simple. If these guys don't want to help the project, they should leave it alone. Lightbreather (talk) 01:34, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Okay, none of these three editors has indicated that they are willing to stay away from gender gap project, in fact, quite the opposite, so the proposal should either be that they either stay off the project page or stay away from the topic entirely, not sure which is more appropriate. I'm not a member of the project, and don't want to be, but if no one else wants to make the formal proposal, I can do it tomorrow. —Neotarf (talk) 02:01, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

More importantly, they've continued and rev'd up the bad behavior in the last 15 odd hours. But it's definitely better a neutral party with experience propose this. It might be nice to give them 24 hours to reform, assuming someone isn't rushing to close this. But being nice hasn't worked too well so far.. sigh... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:05, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I know I am one who is barred from your talk page. Could you please list all of the others somewhere: it sometimes seems that there are lots who are barred. That might indicate your concerns with alleged harrassment or it might indicate concerns with your own attitude, or perhaps a mix of the two in a cause-effect type of situation. Anyone proposing that some people stay away from a project is likely skating on thin ice, especially when it is a project so mired in politics as this one. I realise that excluding dissenting males etc would make it easier for some but nothing worth achieving in life ever comes easy. Are there any males on the female-oriented mailing list that was set up some months ago? How do things work there? For that matter, is anything being co-ordinated there and, if so, to what extent might that constitute meatpuppetting? - Sitush (talk) 06:03, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have said "allegedly dissenting males", just in case anyone thinks I was referring specifically to those named in this report (I wasn't). - Sitush (talk) 06:32, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Do you have any self-awareness at all at how boorish you come across as? Yes, I happen to be on the gender-gap list; rarely post, just there to stay informed. The mailing list and the wiki-project exist because of an identified problem, that the number of female editors is small compared to the male editors, that the gulf between the two is rather sizable. I don't think it really matters to them if you do not believe that that is a problem. You approach it as something to debate, whole others approach it as something to solve. If you don't want to address the subject matter, then you really have no place at the table, any more than a global warming denier should be invited to a climate change conference. Tarc (talk) 13:17, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Who is the "you" to whom you refer, Tarc? Me? Find me a post where I've denied that a gender gap exists, please. Find me a recent post where I've even been involved in that debate. My problem is not dealing with the gap but rather the stupid remedies being proposed and the cheerleader, who really should have had far more sanctions imposed on her over the many years that she has been here. She does nothing but stir shit, be it relating to libertarianism, gun control, Palestine, feminism, gender gap or anything else. And her almost immediate reaction to debate that challenges her is to try to close it down. When she starts actually creating decent articles and making useful edits instead of engaging in campaigns, pedantry and whingeing, and when she gets her articlespace % over 50, I might have more time for her. I'm not holding my breath. - Sitush (talk) 14:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Your entire attitude, e.g. "I realise that excluding dissenting males etc would make it easier..." practically scrams it, along with Corbett. Carol has identified problems in this project, and the action that you cal "shit stirring" would simply be praised as "being assertive" if it were someone else. Article-writing is a poor metric for usefulness to the project; we have enough problematic content to deal with, creating more is hardly a priority. Tarc (talk) 15:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

You were asked to provide a diff to back up your usual nonsense. So where is it? Eric Corbett 15:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

The part that begins with "Your entire attitude, e.g..." is sufficient. Tarc (talk) 16:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Page ban request

As requested, I am now making the formal ban request, since it has now been 24 hours and the three individuals have not agreed to stay away from the Gender Gap talk page voluntarily. If anything, the disruption has increased. The request is that users Eric Corbett, Two kinds of pork, and SPECIFICO be page banned from WP:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force. This includes the project page and the talk page. A topic ban is not requested, since positive interactions have been reported with these users in other areas.

The reason for the page ban request is frequent disruption that makes it difficult to have any content discussion. Some overlap with the men's rights issues on WP has also been reported, at least with some editors. Project participants have been archiving more frequently to try to prevent disruptions, but in the process some interesting discussion has been lost.

Discussion threads about the disruption:

• Disruption
• How male editors/men can be better participants here.
• Re "On average, males and females have different interests"
• Back to hatting vs. closing vs. immediate archiving

Diffs for extra archiving triggered by the disruption:

• [74] [75]

A recent development is a discussion about moving the gender organizing tasks off-wiki in order to reserve the right to determine who can or cannot join, and prevent people who are a problem from wasting their energy. Women.com, a new invite-only website, is being considered, however the site does not accept men. For this discussion see Women.com. It would be a shame to lose the male participants, who at this point are probably the majority at this WikiProject. Surely there is a way to accommodate the gender group on Wikipedia itself, without them having to go to a "No men allowed" website. —Neotarf (talk) 05:58, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. As proposer. —Neotarf (talk) 05:58, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support. The gender gap task force has become a hostile environment due to ongoing disruptions from a small group of editors. Lately I've been afraid to post there for fear of becoming a target for harassment. gobonobo ^{+ c} 10:25, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support. The hostile environment these editors have created has kept me, and no doubt others, from contributing to this important project, having no wish to find myself on their radar. Their lack of self-control, their need to belittle and bully others in order to make themselves feel important, and their immature behavior demands action. --Drmargi (talk) 10:34, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support. While I was happy to see recognition there’s an issue in the previous closing, I have no confidence the petty nitpicking meant to upset and disrupt other’s serious efforts would stop. As an example just of SPECIFICO’s persistence, I’d like to add that since the October 31 2013 thread where I clarified SPECIFICO was banned from my talk page, I have had to remind him of the banning and/or complain about continued harassment at my talk page on these dates: Oct 31, Nov 11, Nov 22, Nov 24, Dec 19, Dec 29, Jan 10, June 30, 9/4, 9/4. Eric Corbett is similarly relentless. Yes, at the task force a few individuals have thrown up rather dubious proposals, including on the main page, which were not shot down quickly and definitively enough. I just shot down a very problematic one now. But do we have to continue to keep hearing about it three or four times a day in such a badgering fashion? Anyway, the Gender Gap Task Force is one of seven at Countering systemic bias. And let’s not forget about Wikipedia:WikiProject African diaspora and Wikipedia:WikiProject Latinos. Let’s affirm it is not open field day for unrelenting and badgering criticisms - real or imagined - of projects meant to increase diversity of editors on Wikipedia. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 10:54, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose This is an attempt by the usual suspects to stifle valid discussion. Disagreeing with someone is not synonymous with disruption and projects should not be closed shops. - Sitush (talk) 11:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• I also note that, as is pathetically common for CMDC, the list of diffs that she mentions are mostly unrelated to the matter at hand. Carol, you need to get a grip and stop tendentiously referring to your pet gripes otherwise your time here will become limited. - Sitush (talk) 11:42, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Ridiculous, this matter has been dealt with. [76] A project in which one of the loudest voices can write "actively recruit women editors and administrators" under "Affirmative Action measures" and "stealth recruiting [of admins] would be the best policy" (now decribed by its author as a joke) and demanding that women editors get special treatment needs critical eyes. There are some reasonable voices on that talk page being drowned out by a strident feminist anti-men attitide. That is not the way to address anything. Asking difficult questions and requesting answers is not disruptive. J3Mrs (talk) 11:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Absolute nonsense. I thought this discussion had been closed anyway? I cannot see any posts to the talk page or the Project page by any of the three editors during the 24 hours before this proposal was added here so how is there continued disruption as claimed? I also don't understand how the proposer is uninvolved? SagaciousPhil - Chat 12:25, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

  Since when is an active discussion closed less than 24 hours after it is opened, with active discussion still going on? Perhaps they missed the consensus that I post a formal request. I offered to make the proposal since I am not involved in the project and do not wish to be. This somehow got on my watchlist about a week ago. —Neotarf (talk) 14:07, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

By 'consensus' do you mean Carolmooredc agreeing with you and Sitush disagreeing? The proposal states: "If anything, the disruption has increased.", so can you show me where any of the three editors have posted on the GGTK page or it's talk page in the 24 hours prior to the posting of this proposal, please? SagaciousPhil - Chat 14:35, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support wholeheartedly. The Wikipedia Gender Gap is a topic that has attracted geniune academic research, a natural extension of that is to form a task force to address this clearly identified problem. If editors, particularly male ones, do not believe in the projects aims or goals...or even sillier IMO, but if they don't believe the problem actually exists, then they are free to not participate. Healthy criticism is integral to any debate, even the gender gap issue, but what these editors have been doing goes far, far beyond that and into disruption, divisiveness, and at times outright trolling. One does not expect to hear the term militant feminist outside of trailer parks and race tracks, to see suggestions of cheap foreign labor be used to close the gap, simple, old-fashioned misogyny. We're probably on the verge of adding a 4th to the list, as Sitush had a screed yesterday accusing the project of using the mailing list to organize meatpuppets. The bottom line is, guys should be able to participate in the GGTF, but there's no point in being there if one is so solidly against he premise and will do nothing but attack and obstruct everything they do. There are editors here who are crossing the line. Tarc (talk) 12:37, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Bollocks: Tarc yet again misrepresents what I said. FWIW, I've now found the mailing list archives here, and it does look like CMDC may arguably have been using it for canvassing, eg here. - Sitush (talk) 12:44, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• And the notion that militant feminist is a term unexpected outside trailer parks etc is simply not supported by the evidence, eg: this from Rutgers University Press. - Sitush (talk) 12:55, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Your words, bro, you can't seem to backpedal from them fast enough now. "OMG CANVASSING" is one of the biggest joke accusations of the project anyways, there is nothing wrong with informing other editors about on-wiki discussions. The only time "bad canvassing" comes about is when people solicit non-wikipedians" to come disrupt or sway an on-wiki matter. That book link doesn't work for me, but all of these strawmen of yours kinda ignore the main point that these people...and you, increasingly..are only involved in this top to thwart the goals of the gender gap project. Tarc (talk) 13:06, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• I said Are there any males on the female-oriented mailing list that was set up some months ago? How do things work there? For that matter, is anything being co-ordinated there and, if so, to what extent might that constitute meatpuppetting? How is that, as you claim, "a screed yesterday accusing the project of using the mailing list to organize meatpuppets"? Do you even understand punctuation? - Sitush (talk) 13:10, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• You insinuated meatpuppetry, among the many digs you've taken at Carol and the GG the last few days it was just the tip of a very large iceberg. Stop being a part of the problem, Sitush; it's that simple. Tarc (talk) 13:21, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• I didn't insinuate anything. I asked a series of questions. Stop being an idiot, Tarc; it's that simple. - Sitush (talk) 13:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. If people were actively, deliberately, disrupting the page then fine (and yes, perhaps some people could tone it down a bit) but I don't see that calling out dubious assumptions and comedically bad use of statistics as being disruptive. If anything, as long as it doesn't go further than that, it's a check and balance. And I'm always really dubious about trying to topic ban dissenting editors from talk page systems unless they're a clear net negative to other editors; that's something we should really be keeping for articles. Black Kite (talk) 12:48, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

  This isn't about people disagreeing about statistics, there's plenty of genuine back and forth over stuff like that. These are people who actively oppose bringing more women into the project, and disrupt content discussions with belittling personalized comments. For example:

  [77] "I really couldn't care less whether or not more women are recruited. I'm here because I think that too many of you have got your heads up your proverbial arses".

  [78] "Can you read?" (edit summary)

  —Neotarf (talk) 13:57, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. If anyone should be page banned then it's Carolmooredc. Eric Corbett 12:59, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose – This isn't still rumbling on is it!? Cassianto^talk 13:10, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - It's counter-productive in the long run, to ban editors from any WikiProject. I will not agree to supression of opposing views. IMHO, there's no such thing as a male or female editor. We are simply editors period. I'm also apprehensive about possible agendas being pushed on Wikipedia. PS: All this commotion would've been avoided, if all editors had chosen to hide ther RL genders from Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 13:24, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Abuse of deletion process

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

- Wrongly tagged for delete based on no sources - corrected without apology - Source wrongly tagged as self-publshed - corrected no apology - Extra deletion process started before discussing with editors on the page or on talk page - initiator withdrawn - Vote cast by policy acronym without anyone having read provided source or even asking what it says - Vote not withdrawn without any clear explanation. [[79]] FinalAccount (talk) 08:23, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• And the deletion discussion is still ongoing. You should wait until it's over. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:26, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • You don't seem to have grasped that I, a Wikipedia content contributor, am asking for help from Wikipedia administration to discuss or help with what I perceive to be misuse of the deletion process, currently at the last point of misuse listed above? FinalAccount (talk) 10:00, 5 September 2014 (UTC) p.s. i have no doubt the article won't be deleted, it very obviously won't be, this is not a roundabout way of trying to get at that. I am talking about apparent user misuse of the process. FinalAccount (talk) 10:02, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd say Final Account is correct. The delete votes were withdrawn, and now there are none, I'd say it's ripe for a close as keep. KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 10:46, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

As above, have closed the AfD as withdrawn with nominator, followed by withdrawal of only actionable !vote. Euryalus (talk) 11:03, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

Well thanks for closing the deletion process but again I am asking for Wikipedia administration to make some comment about the user who started off by mistakenly using a delete tag that's for articles with no sources listed, when it had two listed, and hasn't acknowledged let along apologised for risking my hard work in this way, and then for voting delete before waiting for verification of one of the provided sources, and then, even when it's clearly obviously a non-deletion article and had even been reviewed and passed by someone separately, STILL just said 'can't confirm keep' thus stopping the article being deleted on the basis of the instigator withdrawal - apparently simply to annoy me, even though he started all this by his mistake. FinalAccount (talk) 12:37, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

You seem to be confusing matters here. The prod was added by User:Nafsadh, [80], it was then removed by User:GB_fan [81] as the reasoning seemed invalid (as you said, the article did have sources). It was then nominated for deletion by User:Stuartyeates [82].

The fact that a mistake may have been made in the rationale by Nafsadh doesn't affect the AFD nomination by Stuartyeates in any way. From what I can tell, Stuartyeates never claimed the article had no sources. Nor did they comment on an inability to verify. It appears that their primary problem was the sources you used at the time did not establish notability under the WP:GNG (and also I guess failed any subject specific criteria). Verification of the sources doesn't help if they either aren't WP:RS or lack sufficient coverage to establish notability.

To be clear, I'm not saying Stuartyeates was definitely right to AFD, I haven't looked at the sources present at the time so can't comment. I'm simply saying that whatever mistakes Nafsadh may or may not have made have no bearing on Stuartyeates AFD.

Also, even if Nafsadh made a mistake, you really need to learn to WP:Assume good faith and let things go or you aren't going to last very long wikipedia. Note also that even if a mistake was made, that doesn't mean there was any abuse of process. Contributors aren't expected to be perfect and it does sound like there were problems with the article at the time of the prodding, or at least one other contributor feels there was. So Nafsadh likely had a fair reason to be concerned, even if they may have made a mistake in the specific prodding rationale.

And no one is going to rule that someone made a mistake, that's not what administrators do. (Actually you're far closer to earning administrative attention i.e. a block if you continue to fail to AGF and make accusations like "apparently simply to annoy me". You seem to do good work, but understand wikipedia is a collobrative effort. So you need to learn to get along with your fellow editors even when you have disagreements or mistakes are made. And that includes not continually demanding apologies or confirmation of wrongdoing. It sounds like you may be a new editor. If so, may be seek help at WP:Teahouse if you're confused about something rather than coming to ANI and complaining about other editors.)

Nil Einne (talk) 15:59, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Obligatory Note from involved editor. The article concerned was PRODed during a regular NewPagesFeed reviews - a very affective practice withing Wikipedia, especially because a lot of hoax-pages and articles about non-notable subjects pop up. Subsequently it was AfDed again by another editor Stuartyeates probably mostly with similar concern as mine: no apparent reliable sources were present. Stuartyeates investigated and was not satisfied about notability, neither was I. Meanwhile original creator, FinalAccount, harshly attacked me in the PROD notice on his talk page [83] questioning my cognitive ability -- which by no mean nice, and I felt extremely offended. Off course FinalAccount continued to add sources about Ronald R. Fieve, but he (assuming FinalAccount is a he, correct me if wrong) was not ready to cool down on AfD. Consequently his comment, "No thanks coming from you are accepted - my work on the article has nothing to do with your tagging deletion efforts - you hindered what I was working towards anyway. And you are a policy joke" made me think whether I should go for a RfC/UC or not. Since he is relatively new contributor and as I was extremely confounded from his remark about himself on his page: "do have a mental disability" -- I decided to cool down. In the end, this ANI (without notice!) bothers me. -- nafSadh did say 23:21, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Nafsadh to begin with there is nothing obligatory to leave a note no matter how involved you are with a situation. Your inappropriate BLPPROD was the initiation of this entire thing. A BLPPROD should never have been added to the article as the very first edit had sources. You need to take responsibility that you did not follow the BLPPROD policy. Finally as I suggested to FinalAccount drop it because you are not helping. GB fan 00:33, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes that's all I want - some slightly sense of acknowledgement of some responsibility. Not just for my benefit but for Wikipedia content. And not just for the BLPPROD but Nafsadh then voted to delete WITHOUT EXPLANATION AND WITHOUT HAVING READ OR ASKED FOR VERIFICATION FOR OR ASKED ME ABOUT one of the extra sources I listed. Wikipedia administration - please confirm that this is not acceptable, or is it? FinalAccount (talk) 00:41, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

There is no requirement to explain any !vote for or against deletion. No one has to ask for verification of any sources or ask anyone about any sources. FinalAccount drop it and move on to working on articles. GB fan 00:48, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The deletion process was based on a statement that there was no evidence of independent sources. I provided three, one being in a psychiatric journal. Nafsadh then voted delete without any comment on them and without even having read at least one of them. That's perfectly fine treatment of the general public trying to contribute to Wikipedia then is it? FinalAccount (talk) 00:57, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you referring to the PROD (proposed deletion) or the AFD? As I've already said, these are seperate things and shouldn't be conflated. If you are referring to the AFD, your statement seems even more incorrect (but I don't think anyone is going to insist on an apology). The AFD rationale was "no evidence of in depth coverage in independent source". Without commenting on whether this rationale was valid, you've missed out a key point namely the we need in depth coverage to meet the WP:GNG not simply coverage in independent sources, and the claim was the sources you used didn't meet this. The fact that the article may have had 3 sources, no matter whether these are journals or whatever, is obviously irrelevant if this coverage wasn't sufficient. In fact, it seems unlikely a psychiatric journal would have in depth coverage of a reseacher. Remember this is an article on the person, not on their books or research or anything else. An article on the person will cover such details if it's a signficiant part of their life, but it ultimately still needs to qualify for a standalone article on the person. A person who's research is famous or has written a very well known book will generally meet one of the subject specific guidelines like WP:ACADEMIC or WP:WRITER but that doesn't negate the fact the subject of this article is a person. It may be that the information in the article was sufficient to establish presumed notability under one of the subject specific guidelines despite not clearly meeting the GNG. But that's a distinct point and doesn't mean the claim in the deletion rationale was wrong, simply that there may have been reasons to keep despite that. (You could say if that is true, that the article probably shouldn't have been AFDed, but that's a more complicated point.) Nil Einne (talk) 17:56, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

BLPPROD stipulates that there shall be some reliable source. Sources did not seem to be reliable. I considered CSD/AfD and PROD. So, you can think the tagging is inappropriate, it is not necessarily a violation of BLPPROD policy. @GB. -- nafSadh did say 00:56, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Nafsadh, You should go back and read WP:BLPPROD again. It says you can only add a BLPPROD to an article if it has no sources in any form. The reliable source portion only kicks in when sources are added after a BLPPROD is on the article. If there are any sources in any form that confirm any information in the article then a BLPPROD can not be added. There were sources in the article that confirmed information (reliability of those sources have nothing to do with it) so a BLPPROD was inappropriate. You were absolutely wrong to add a BLPPROD to the article. GB fan 01:03, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Obligatory note from involved editor As noted above, I've withdrawn my nomination based on the numbers of editions of this academics work listed on WorldCat (many editions of multiple works by a mainstream publisher == evidence of a widely held / used books). In my withdrawal message I suggested the article creator add this data (and a {{Authority Control}} template) to the article; this has not been done. I also note that most of the links in the references don't work for me and aren't really suitable for an international encyclopedia (the issue appears to be region-locked texts in google books unavailable outside the US, but could also be the maximum page access limit that we sometimes hit). Stuartyeates (talk) 07:24, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Stuartyeates, why are are the links not suitable for an international encyclopedia? Sources do not have to be in English. Sources can be behind paywalls. Sources do not have to be readily available to a majority of editors. The sources only have to be verifiable. If others can get to them and confirm that they verify the information in the article that is all that is required (it does not have to be someone from the US). If you think a {{Authority Control}} template belongs on the article, you can add it. There is no requirement for any one else to add it. GB fan 11:42, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The links are unsuitable because they appear to be region-locked; working only for a relatively small subset of editors. Stuartyeates (talk) 05:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Like talking to two brick walls - as just pointed out to you, no links are even necessary at all, as the information to find the source is there in the citation? And you know what, I realise now you mean because some of the links are to google.co.uk - but you know what, you know how hard it is to access them - change it from books.google.co.uk to google.com?!?

In any case this is just bizarre as they are all totally normal types of sources in english for which I provided direct online links and I am not in the US and no one asked me for other links or extracts. One of the two original sources was in any case perfectly reliable, being published by an international mainstream academic society. As to some worldcat/authority, who cares, I already sourced in the article which I expect Stuartyeates saw that the english language version alone sold over a million copies in five years and was instrumental in introducing America to Bipolar Disorder. FinalAccount (talk) 12:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

What GB Fan said. Note also that this also mean sources don't have to be online. In the case of any book source, Google Books or whatever would generally only be a convenience link. The citation details should generally have sufficient information such that the book can be tracked down via some other method, such as a: physical copy. I didn't and don't really want to get in to the back and forth on the original AFD more than I already have. But even if the way they're approaching this isn't helping, I do feel the FinalAccount has a point that you should always take great care if you're AFDing an article and haven't actually read the sources (even if the reason is you can't access them) and can't be sure they aren't reliable. (Although I'm not sure that the sources were sufficient to establish notability under the GNG anyway, which seemed to be what you're AFD was for. It sounds more like a case where the sources may have established notability under one of the subject specific guidelines.) Nil Einne (talk) 18:20, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The sources currently in the article where not in the article when I AfD'd it; but their addition didn't cause me to withdraw the nomination (because as I mentioned, the most of the links don't work for me). There was some weight added when I found (and added) a handful of papers on google scholar with more than 100 cites (see in-line comment). What caused me to withdraw was the WorldCat editions, which has not yet been added to the article. Stuartyeates (talk) 05:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect - two of the sources were in the article when you AfD'd it (one of them a chapter by the subject published with biographical paragraph by an international academic society). And as you must know, no links are even necessary at all. Are you seriously claiming it was beyond you to search for the books online yourself, or change books.google.co.uk to google.com? And that a bit of Original Research of citation/sales figures on your part is better than the multiple sources of significant coverage I've added to the article? FinalAccount (talk) 05:53, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Closing this a second time - see comments in results box above. Please feel free to continue a discusson on sources on the aticle talk page, but there's no admin action required here. Euryalus (talk) 04:27, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extensive OR and POV-pushing by Zarpboer.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User Zarpboer appears to be on a one-man mission to show the WP:TRUTH about the South African Republic, throwing all consideration of WP:NPOV and WP:OR out the window and using highly inflammatory language both in edits and edit summaries. Despite repeated calls for co-operation and warning over their behavior [84], [85], [86], [87] Zarpboer insists on continuing. Edits like these clearly violates WP:NPOV and WP:OR by introducing a highly personal view of history [88], [89] [90], [91], [92]. These edits are just a fraction of similar edits. Further, edit summaries like this one are not helpful either [93]. The user ignores all attempts to get them to understand and follow Wikipedia policies, and as the edits, though disruptive, are not vandalism, ANI remains the only option as the user refuses to stop.Jeppiz (talk) 09:53, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I am simply contributing to wikipedia. I found an article about a subject in which I am well versed and the article had 0 citations, 0 references, the article name did not match the content and was generally of an extremely poor quality. I did not simply add my point of view, I added facts like actual original documents, constitutions, laws, and actual dates or proclamations as well as content, with citations, for all my additions. I am very new to wikipedia and i did edit a talk page, which another editor kindly pointed out and fixed for me, and i do apologise for that. but other than that i have discussed changes on the talk page and i have tried my best to add good quality content. whereas others simply go and undo, revert and delete paragraphs, for no reason other than their own opinions and without discussing on the talk page or adding citations or anyting of real value to the quality of the article. Zarpboer (talk) 10:03, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Just to add, I added over 40 citations and refs to the article that had 0 and did invest a lot of time and effort to ensure accuracy and quality Zarpboer (talk) 10:05, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

FYI, other articles affected (to a greater or lesser extent) by the contributor's POV editing are Transvaal Colony, Dutch language, Gauteng, History of South Africa, Second Boer War and First Boer War. I tried at first to help him edit Transvaal Colony within the rules but when the editor's POV agenda became clear to me I gave up trying and notified WikiProject South Africa about the issue. Unfortunately I'm very busy off wiki currently so I simply don't have the time to clean up after this editor. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the information Roger (Dodger67), I didn't know the user's POV-campaign extended to so many articles when I started the discussion. All the more reason for action to be taken.Jeppiz (talk) 11:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Zarpboer is now actively edit warring, I don't want to risk a 3RR block so can someone else please undo the edits. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Done, but I hope others will get involved and that action will be taken fast. This is rather extensive.Jeppiz (talk) 12:31, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

He's now gone to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. Dougweller (talk) 13:07, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment In addition to all the violations of WP:OR, WP:POV, WP:RS, WP:3RR, the user has also decided to abandon WP:CIVIL [94]. As Dodger67 said in dispute resolution, the user Zarpboer is not here to construct an encyclopedia, just to push a particular POV by all means.Jeppiz (talk) 13:32, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Alleged violations? I have only undone vandalism. I have over 300 edits on the History of South Africa page, over time - all my work is simply being reverted and with a three letter explanation: pov. Regarding Transvaal Colony, this page was complete fiction, until a week ago when I became involved in it, it is now under construction and the wiki quality is already much improved. Regarding Dutch language, my sinlge(one) edit was reverted by you Jeppiz and I am currently engaged in discussion with you in the talk page, as I have said in the talk page, your removal of my single sentence edit is not WP:NPOV. You have not yet responded. Regarding History of South Africa, I have added the page to the category in previous countries, requesting specialized assistance from an expert. I have declared an edit dispute as none of the editors, that are vandalising the page, have explained why they are claiming POV, they simply say: POV and undo a lot of work done over time, restoring a previous fictional version of the page containing fake citation. - this is simply vandalism and not neutral point of view Zarpboer (talk) 06:48, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment (Non-administrator comment) I read the talk page of the article and Zarpboer's talk page and did not see a concise explanation or examples of specific things that are his (supposedly warped) POV. I'll note that the user has appeared to attempt to engage in conversation about details, and isn't getting much more than repetition of the same general objections, without specifics. He's now losing his cool, which is not surprising, and the discussion is more focused on behavior of both sides than the actual issues. For the benefit of those who might want to help but can't read through and evaluate the large number of edits and sources, would one of the objectors please describe what the overall POV is that Zarpboer is allegedly pushing, and provide a couple of detailed examples, explaining what is wrong with them, what they should supposedly say, and how those differ? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 10:36, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment (Non-administrator comment) Let me preface this by saying I know little about this period in South African history. OK, I encourage Zarpboer to read WP:BRD. He/she wants to make very big changes to the present article, and does not have consensus for these changes. Get consensus, then make changes please. Accusing others of vandalism when they revert your changes is also a bad idea. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:53, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm doing my level best to try to help out on the talk page of the article. I encourage, and would welcome, input from other non involved editors to jump in. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:30, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you I read WP:BRD, there is much to learn, thank you! :) - and, thank you very much for helping out on the talk page of South African Republic - regarding the single sentence removed from Dutch language, i have not had any response from that editor, as per the talk page of the page and i have not re-added the sentence or done anything else, but wait for the editor to respond. I have also learned from Prof Dbrodbeck that it is ALL about collaboration and not just collaboration, there is a difference, i think. And i did not know about WP:CIVIL until i saw it here. Zarpboer (talk) 07:26, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reptilians

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:MONGO declared his/her intention of edit-warring on the Reptilians article and talk page here and here, and has carried out the threat here, here, here and here. He/she has offered no constructive criticism, saying only that "That is the typical ploy of everyone that thinks they are right....to make others disprove their edit." When I tried to discuss it with him/her on his/her user talk page, my post was deleted with the edit summary, "dont start something you cant finish". Can this user be requested to edit civilly and collaboratively, please? Scolaire (talk) 15:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Scolaire wrote the section he has in the article in his sandbox then circumvented discussion in much detail by moving the entire passage to article space. That is not editing collaboratively. He has repeatedly reinserted PAs in the talkpage made by an IP because the IP supports his edits. His post on my talk page wasn't anything other than threats and snide insinuations. No need to provide the diffs as they are already above. Looks like an ownership mentality on Scolaire's part...he should learn to build an article within that space and seek consensus for his changes before assuming all would be in agreement.--MONGO 15:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Those diffs you provided of Mongo "edit warring" on the talk page are diffs of him removing personal attacks, which is entirely appropriate. Gamaliel (talk) 15:33, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

A defence of removing personal attacks might carry more weight if the deleted post had not been a response to a personal attack on the editor by Mongo: I'm just going to remove your adolescent posts on sight no matter what IP they come in on and you can take that to the bank. --Scolaire (talk) 15:44, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Then his comment can be removed as well, but it is disingenuous for you to call his removal of an attack "edit warring" and doesn't cast the rest of your complaint in a favorable light. Gamaliel (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Point taken. Scolaire (talk) 16:05, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I recommend Scolaire post his material to the article talk page and if concensus is the references are neutral then no reason the material cannot then be added.--MONGO 15:39, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

A pity you could not be as reasonable on the article talk page or your user talk page. Scolaire (talk) 15:45, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Sure...you've been spreading love and joy everywhere as well...--MONGO 16:25, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Considering that article just got off full protection a couple days ago and reverting is still happening, perhaps full protection should be restored until meaningful discussion has resumed. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

No need to on my account. I have started an RfC as suggested. I will not revert before it is resolved. Scolaire (talk) 16:03, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Since the most inflammatory editor is an IP, perhaps it would make sense to semiprotect article and its talk page for a while. Cardamon (talk) 23:26, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

The IP has since toned down his/her comments in the discussion, and is not making any edits to the article. There is no apparent need for any kind of protection. Scolaire (talk) 11:10, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The wonderful IP editor is back...accusing myself and another editor of being hypocrites and that I'm his meatpuppet...I see no reason to not simply remove it for the long winded trolling it is.--MONGO 20:49, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Or you could simply ignore it as tl;dr. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC).

The dispute has now been resolved. It would be safe to close this now. Scolaire (talk) 08:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:SchroCat and User:Cassianto

This apparent tag team has turned uncivility into a habit. As they have shadowed and dittoed one another's edits when attacking an editor like me or others, the team label seems appropriate.

They do this primarily on talk pages, and a review of their style of comments will show a continual and long-term misuse of talk pages for making personal attacks, boastfully assuming bad faith, and generally engaging in discussions in an uncivil manner, all of which amount to disruptive editing.

In reviewing, please also note that while PAs, etc. are frequent, there is never a counter-attack or reason to attack an editor to begin with. It's simply their method of discourse which has become so expected that I usually ignore them. However, their most recent comments on Peter Sellers talk has been noted with disgust by a new editor to the article, User:Wordreader, who wrote, "I find the comments of SchroCat and Cassianto to be disparaging and rude." I personally am embarrassed that WP is shown in such a poor light.

For the record, while I'm posting this issue, I don't expect any censure of any sort against them. Their blatant PAs have appeared on talk pages with hundreds of watchers and many long-term wikipedians also commenting, and most seem to cower and say nothing, effectively giving their PA style tacit approval.

Just a few the diffs from various talk pages.

Peter Sellers talk

1. diff 9/2014
2. diff 9/2014
3. diff 9/2014
4. diff 6/2013
5. diff 7/2013
6. diff 8/2012
7. diff 8/2012

Stanley Kubrick talk

• diff 8/2014

Charlie Chaplin talk

• diff 11/2013

Light show (talk) 06:35, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Lightshow, you have engaged in endless sniping during the Sellers re-write—sniping that has lasted from mid-2012 to date—and managed to turn the work on the Sellers article into the most unpleasant editing experience I have experienced on Wiki, and you are the one that has managed to suck the joy out of that process. Your behaviour on the article has been so bad that a topic ban has been mooted here more than once.

This is yet another re-hash of a previous visit to ANI (see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive252#Request to censure personal attacks and harassment re: Peter Sellers article which was quickly dismissed, as was Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive776#Request review of personal attacks. A trawl through the Sellers talk page will show everything from Lightshow/Wikiwatcher's abuse to passive-aggressive sniping that merits a topic ban on Sellers. Requests for him to take Sellers off his Watchlist have proved fruitless, and a ban might be the best way forward here.

Finally Lightshow, numerous people commenting against you isn't tag teaming: it's people disagreeing with you, based on the fact that you're not a very good editor. – SchroCat (talk) 08:29, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Dare I say it, but I agree with my fellow tag-teamer. From the moment we touched upon Sellers to this very day, Lightshow has done nothing but condemn, snipe, and criticise all the hard work that we have put into it. We have taken Sellers from the lowly depths of C-class to the heights of FA which Lightshow disagrees with; he/she has done nothing in terms of helping with the articles development. Instead, they keep the article on their watch-list hoping that one day, someone will come along who is as like-minded as they are and join their "this article is shit" gang. Until then, every time a new editor comes to the page with a question, Lightshow seizes upon the opportunity to bad mouth the article and the two of us. Frankly this ANI is pretty wasted, but nothing unusual as this is always how dealing with them ends up. Pathetic! Cassianto^talk 08:46, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Gentlemen, your PA phrasings and word choices have become so similar and repetitious, I'd like to suggest a new one you can freely use with my full approval: Sucker. When you first started editing Sellers, you both honestly had me going for a while, with Schrocat writing friendly notes like:

"Hi WW, Sorry for taking so long to get back to you - a brief holiday intervened! I think the article is broadly OK, but it doesn't hang together well at the moment—I think because of the alterations of passing editors. The overall structure is also broadly OK, although we need a few tweaks ("Acting technique and preparation" is in the middle of the chronological run through of his life, for example). I suggest that most of what is already there remains and the following structure is used (please let me know if you have any better ideas—this is just an initial suggestion!)"

I assumed your intentions were positive. That was then, this is now. And now you can freely call me "sucker." --Light show (talk) 09:08, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it was friendly: I always am when there is a receptive editor to deal with. Unfortunately you did not prove to be amenable to the development and improvement of the article, and attempted to block every change, edit warring and running spurious RfCs to hamper every step. The RfCs were largely rejected out of hand, and numerous editors advised you to drop the stick, but all to no avail. After such a campaign of negativity, even a saint's patience would have evaporated by now. - SchroCat (talk) 09:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Troll elsewhere:your endless bitching and sniping is deep in the territory of tedium, and your toxic rumblings have done nothing positive to this article. You are too bitter about your ownership being swamped by losing in nearly every single RfC you started to ever see anything positive here, and you make yourself look more and more ridiculous every time you post another of your pointless messages, so do yourself a favour and take this off your Watchlist and move on. - User:SchroCat 08:16, 4 September 2014 (UTC) That's not cool no matter what the provocation. If you're that angry step away before typing, regardless of whether you think you're "right".__ E L A Q U E A T E 11:22, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Neither is two years of trolling, bitching and sniping, but let's just gloss over that behaviour. FWIW, I stand by every word, as it is true, justified and entirely correct. I'll also add that I wasn't angry at all: it was written while I was extremely calm, and is an honest straightforward appraisal of this editors approach both on the Sellers page and elsewhere. – SchroCat (talk) 19:26, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

This editor appears to be engaged in a form of Wikihounding of those who he either disagrees with or won't let him have his own way, despite rules or consensus. He seems obsessed with the Peter Sellers article and the talk page history shows his many RFCs when that doesn't happen. Here we have one started at Mike Todd over the photo he placed in the infobox. The Sellers obsession is everywhere; up it comes at the Red Skelton talk page.

Those of us who don't agree with him become a Wikimafia in his opinion. From the article sandbox he started: "Obvious problems: You have greatly expanded a clear and brief paragraph into six separate topics, mostly film-related trivia, divided below, all jumbled into one hodge-podge paragraph. Which, btw, is exactly how the demolition of Sellers began. Note also that another editor has joined your team by now tagging the lead image." The infobox photo was a copyvio. He's been unwelome at my talk page since an exchange in March over a Commons-deleted photo ruled to be a copyvio.

As for his complaints about incivility, This comment "BTW, your math is about 3,000% off, since it's closer to 5K at most. Guess math wasn't your favrit subject either, huh doc?" to User:Dr. Blofeld is taunting and rude, yet he's crying about civility. Let's close this misuse of ANI and hope this editor will finally learn how to work congenially with everyone else.We hope (talk) 13:50, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, in the spirit of congeniality, I'm not sure I ever thanked you for getting me blocked from the Commons, investigated with your CCI, and for tirelessly tagging hundreds of recently uploaded public domain images, currently used for leads or body, with large red warning signs. --Light show (talk) 16:50, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

To refresh your memory and for the edification of everyone else This is how you got blocked from Commons. We hope (talk) 16:57, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Your off topic Lightshow. Leave others alone and concentrate on trying to get me and my tag-teamer blocked. Cassianto^talk 16:54, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

It was We hope that decided to join in with his image issues, not me. Nor am I concerned with getting anyone blocked, since you're both obviously immune from even mild censure or criticism. This is a notice board, and it's worth noticing the level of arrogance that has become acceptable. --Light show (talk) 17:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I urge an admin to close this thread asap, obviously there is no action to be taken against Schro and Cass in light of the circumstances.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:49, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

In my experience both users indeed act like a tag team, often together with two other editors. The Banner talk 19:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, my other favourite editor how lovely to see you Banner. Cassianto^talk 20:03, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: Ban User:Light show from editing at the Peter Sellers article

Some of the above comments look pretty bad taken out of context, but entirely understandable when this haranguing has been going on for two years and I think this situation needs some resolution. After SchroCat and Cassianto put considerable effort into taking this article to FA standard (which they successfully steered through an FA review), Light show (under a previous user name) proposed junking all their effort and putting the article back to its C-class version: Talk:Peter Sellers/Archive 2#Is this "Feature Article" incomprehensible?. Now, I think it's fair to say that anyone who sincerely believes that junking an FA rated article is in the best interests of that article probably has nothing more to contribute in a positive way. Therefore I propose an article-ban for Light show: the article, SchroCat, Cassianto and Light show himself would all be better off if they didn't interact any more at that particular article. SchroCat and Cassianto are the ones that got the article promoted so they are best placed to stay and maintain it. Betty Logan (talk) 19:38, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. 19:38, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Non-issue: As Schro-Cass has/have prevented me from adding so much as a comma over the last few years, putting up a no-trespassing sign when the article is already ringed with barbed wire, will add nothing. As the proposer has, in their comment at the link above, accused me of somehow reprogramming Wikimedia and gaming user feedback, I'm not sure their good faith is clear in their proposal. --Light show (talk) 19:51, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

@Betty. It's not just the Peter Sellers article though Light show has kicked up a fuss about, it's other articles on film biographies any one of us has been involved with. But all were motivated by the Sellers vendetta he has and it is indeed the Sellers article which creates the bulk of his comments still. An interaction ban banning Light show from editing or discussing any film biographical article primarily written by myself, Schro or Cass would be more appropriate. I support of course, but I fear a ban on just Sellers will prompt petty responses on other articles. I 'd suggest a full interaction ban.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:46, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support What Dr. Blofeld has said. The insult difs above took place on the Stanley Kubrick talk page and the sandbox the editor started. While the basis for this is the Peter Sellers article, that rancor has been spread around by him. We hope (talk) 21:01, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Lightshow, to say anyone has stopped you changing a comma is an untruth. It's also an untruth for you to say that Betty Logan has accused you of anything: she provided you with an explanation regarding the feedback, not accused you of anything. Sadly the two untruths here are just the latest in a string of mud-throwing from you, where you a unable to accept that anyone who disagrees with you on Sellers is part of some massive tag-team. It's time for the community to stop your interaction on the Sellers talk page. - SchroCat (talk) 20:50, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support, needless to say. Lightshow has shown himself to be a thoroughly difficult editor to work with. I'm sure he does some good somewhere, so for that reason I think a full on block is not justified, but I think the ban as proposed above is a great comprise. Lightshow needs to let this one go and accept that the C-class Sellers is a long and distant memory. He also made things difficult for the FA nominator's on Charles Chaplin, but that is a different article altogether. Move on with your wiki-life, for god's sake! Cassianto^talk 21:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban on this article and a broader one one should anyone propose it. A read of the relevant talk pages shows a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that makes editing by other members of the community an unpleasant task to say the least. MarnetteD|Talk 21:16, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• I think waiting for some neutral editors to review and comment is required, since the editors above, excluding MarnetteD, have in some way, repeatedly attacked the editor, his edits, comments or uploads. There is no way to assume their neutrality. It's also worth noting how the original ANI against their PAs has digressed and been hijacked so easily into blocking the complaining editor. The message is that guidelines about civility, including not using PAs, can be ignored. --Light show (talk) 21:20, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

this-"I'm glad you found a buddy to cover for you, but this will go to ANI if you can't get over your erroneous edits." and this-"Before posting there, let me know if you've used or are using different usernames, since socks are an exemption to 3RR, and your arrogant style of discourse and warring methods are too similar to previous events." is civility? We hope (talk) 21:34, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The request, yet unanswered, was reasonable. Unlike this comment, from one of the above team members. And my mentioning his soliciting support there, was also fine. --Light show (talk) 21:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Although I would expand this to include the talk page, as that's where much of the conflict between the three has happened. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support – I concur with Crisco 1492 and the earlier editors supporting the proposed ban. I have not previously encountered Lightshow, but the evidence above and in the pages linked to makes it clear that such a ban is in the interests of good editing and collaborative conduct. Tim riley talk 09:47, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support – and, yes, it should be extended to the talk page as per Crisco's suggestion; hopefully the dissent will not continue to spill over into the other articles. SagaciousPhil - Chat 10:34, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment This is looking a bit kangaroo here. Looking at the article history, Lightshow hasn't edited the article for about six months. If you look at the history there is a clear pattern of SchroCat reverting all changes made by many other editors to the article during that time. It looks like all edits require SchoCat's explicit approval to be included. Not a very welcoming environment. Dr. Blofield's comment is telling here, wanting to ban someone from discussing any film biographical article primarily written by myself, Schro or Cass. It's hard to read that as anything but a demand for uncontested ownership of certain articles. __ E L A Q U E A T E 12:57, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

@Elaqueate: Frankly I'm sick of your sanctimonious uninformed comments here. You have no experience of what we've had to put up with for two years and it is rather annoying for some holier than thou individual to make judgements. Butt out, please.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry Elaqueate, and you are? Cassianto^talk 17:48, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh! Do you have to be someone to comment here? How is this attitude supposed to convince other uninvolved editors that others weren't similarly "welcomed" on pages you edit? Is this a "closed" !vote? Are we somehow not at AN/I anymore?__ E L A Q U E A T E 17:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't, no, just stop commenting on things you know bugger all about. Lightshow has a very long history of making snide comments on talk pages of articles, Peter Sellers mainly, but his vendetta has surfaced in article talk pages as diverse as Charlie Chaplin and Stanley Kubrick. It is incredibly annoying to have somebody who has not had to deal with this for the last two years turning up and telling people to be civil or accusing people of OWN. That several very experienced administrators support a topic ban should tell you that this has gone on so long it's time for something to be done about it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Just asking who you were, that's all. No need to swing your handbag at me, if anybody has an "attitude" it is you sir. Oh, and FWIW, I'm not here to convince anyone. Cassianto^talk 18:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

You were just collegially asking me for my papers, got it. __ E L A Q U E A T E 18:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I think you have got the shitty end of the stick. I didn't know in what capacity you were commenting from; bystander, admin, etc.. But thanks for showing your true colours which owing to the aforementioned shitty stick, is now brown I see. Cassianto^talk 18:46, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Classy argument.__ E L A Q U E A T E 19:08, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

and one it appears, you have no business in. Cassianto^talk 19:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I should keep talking to someone who just called me shit?__ E L A Q U E A T E 19:43, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Who would that be, because I haven't called you anything. Are you having trouble understanding, or are you only reading what you want to see? Cassianto^talk 20:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want to descend into personal attacks it reflects on you more than me. It doesn't improve anything here.__ E L A Q U E A T E 20:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

OK, I'll add another question to my a answered "Who would that be?" What personal attacks? Cassianto^talk 20:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the smear, especially as it is catastrophically wrong: I have not reverted "all changes made by many other editors". I have reverted the introduction of errors (grammatical, factual, or use of the wrong ENGVAR elements), which is entirely acceptable, I believe. If I am wrong on that point, please let me know. You are also very wrong to say that "all edits require SchoCat's explicit approval to be included": that utter tripe. It's also not a question of ownership either: it's a question of having to deal with the behaviour of one disruptive editor who has been sniping and trolling on the talk page, not within the article, as well as on other talk pages. – SchroCat (talk) 13:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

@Elaqueate: In my experience it is very normal for all the but the highest quality edits to be reverted on a featured article. The standards are very high on those pages. Chillum 14:18, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

@Chillum:, you are right that changes to a quality FA should be made conservatively and that most proposed changes should demonstrate they meet that higher standard. I was only commenting that it seemed to be an individual editor that was ultimately judging that quality over a very long period, and that struck me as a bit of a warning flag for possible POV bias, conscious or not. FA doesn't mean perfect or finished.__ E L A Q U E A T E 14:36, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Not really. If I had not reverted the poor edits, someone else would have done. I have not reverted any improvements to the article, and it have explained my edits when I have reverted. - SchroCat (talk) 15:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure you find your own edits reasonable and necessary. Thanks for sharing that opinion.__ E L A Q U E A T E 17:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not, however, find your smears and untruths to be reasonable or necessary, but you seem to have skated by that. Thanks for sharing and smearing. - SchroCat (talk) 18:18, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussed editor hasn't edited the article in six months, and the talk page currently only has a total of seven comments. No recent diffs were given in this proposal, but that hasn't stopped people from !voting on it. I can't see that any uninvolved editors have been given any actual evidence, other than being told to "butt out". The only diff given in the proposal is two years old and the user had a different user name (what's the deal with that? Is that public?) __ E L A Q U E A T E 19:08, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The change has always been noted at the top of my user page. --Light show (talk) 19:15, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• As I noted above, it's even worse than a kangaroo court, as I came before this body with diffs to show a lack of civility and habitual flinging of PAs. Yet that original reason has been hijacked into a digressed topic of banning the complaining editor with almost no mention of the original complaint or its validity.

For a current example of how and why Schro-Cass resort to simple name-calling over calmly discussing things, visit the current Sellers talk page, where a new editor, User:MrBalham2, who is trying to point out exactly what I did years ago, is already being badgered and seems to be leaving in disgust. A quick link to what he observes in the article was first pointed out by me here, and the result of that was later pointed out here, which supports his and my observation. But this is not about Sellers, it's about the near total unconcern and ready acceptance of uncivility by this board.--Light show (talk) 17:31, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

And for the benefit of anyone appreciating some ironic humor, note SchroCat's first reply to the new editor: in the future, please comment on issues, not editors. and his most recent one, I have asked you not to dip into uncivil comments about other editors . . . not just insults to others, when in fact that editor was extra civil. --Light show (talk) 17:42, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe you should have considered your own actions before rushing to ANI and posting this hastily added report. As for MrBalham2, they came to Sellers asserting their own POV which has been opposed by SchroCat and I. Their edits are not an improvement, and like you they can't accept that. It's just a coincidence that they are complaining about the same thing as you and they have an unhealthy interest in Sellers. Oh, and they came at the same time as this ANI having never expressed an interest in Sellers before; a bit iffy if you ask me. Cassianto^talk 17:45, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

An example of iffy is when a new editor, SchroCat, starts working on Peter Sellers, and 5 minutes later, you, another new editor, join in supporting his every edit, comment, and PA from then on. That's what may be called iffy, IMHO. And noting such things can get one banned from a talk page, it seems. --Light show (talk) 17:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

New editor? I have been here since 2010, SchroCat possibly longer. It sounds like you feel aggrieved at us "new" editors coming along and making your shit C-class version into an FA. Careful, your pal Elaqueate may accuse you of ownership if your not careful... Cassianto^talk 18:44, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

New editors to Peter Sellers article, in case anyone wasn't clear about it.--Light show (talk) 18:57, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support: Light show's edits and talk page postings at Peter Sellers (and other film biography articles) have been entirely disruptive over a very long period of time, and their behavior is not collaborative, but rather intended to upset other editors and make it so unpleasant for them that they will not challenge his/her edits. I also support the broader interaction ban. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support It is difficult enough to bring an article to FA without someone stepping on your shoes the whole way. Light should contribute to areas completely unrelated to Mr. Sellers. I am not sure about a wider ban, though I think as long as Sellers is not mentioned it may be okay. Repeat performances would likely result in quick consensus for widening the scope. Chillum 14:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support and we should probably look at Stanley Kubrick as well. This is a talented and potentially productive editor but needs to learn to work better with others. Over-quoting is a defining and annoying fault, and doggedly defending the over-quoting starts to make other editors think about walking away. --John (talk) 18:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support Having seen the present issue spill over to Stanley Kubrick, and judging by other interactions I've had with Light Show which, by no means the same degree that would require any type of action, do point towards a battlefield mentality they hold when they don't get their way. --MASEM (t) 19:55, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I've made 517 edits to improve Kubrick, vs. 0 for you. Thanks for your support. I'll also note that Kubrick is a more honest example of how I, and other editors, should collaborate. For instance User:WickerGuy, the primary contributor, began his edits a year and a half before I started editing it. We, and other editors, including MarnetteD, had many discussions during the 8 months or so that it was heavily improved. There was never a heated discussion, no PAs, no uncivility by anyone. After much of the article was improved, WickerGuy even added some positive comments to my talk page. I know how to collaborate and work with other editors. You will not find any accusations about uncivility anywhere since I started editing 7 years ago.--Light show (talk) 20:05, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

It's your talk page behavior, eg [95], clearly pitting yourself as one side against Dr. Blofelt and SchroCat, specifically bringing up the Sellers article issues here. --MASEM (t) 20:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

An odd example, since you agreed with me that he was adding trivia. And under your watchful eye, you've let Blofeld do to Kubrick's personal life material, namely turn it into a choppy hodge-podge, of short, disconnected factoids, exactly as Schro-Cass-Blofeld did to Sellers. Blofeld did that to Kubrick, cutting out 75% of his personal life material, about 2,000 words, under your protection, all in a matter of minutes! All three(?) of those editors use the exact same editing style, and unsurprisingly they all use the same uncivil PA style of discourse in protecting their demolitions. Their comments above prove the point. Nuff said. Kubrick should have stayed in NY.--Light show (talk) 21:18, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, and I'm sure @John: would agree on this, no personal life section needs to be well over 2000 words!!! I cut it by 75% because it needed such a drastic cut. I haven't got around to writing a decent personal life section yet so obviously it's still not going to read wonderfully well. You're absolutely clueless how to write encyclopedia articles and don't just get that bloat and excess quotes are just not good. An actor dies and there you are adding excess quotes and bloating it out..♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:08, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Dr. Blofeld—are you really responding to User:Light show? They pointed out that this was all done "in a matter of minutes". Incremental edits are conducive to collaboration. Bus stop (talk) 19:05, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

You can be 100% certain that Blofeld knows exactly what he/they are again doing. The same as they successfully did to Sellers, ie. make it "incomprehensible", by making it unreadable. He/they quickly moved in with chain-saws and earth-movers to demolished 2,000, well-written, fully descriptive words of clear prose about his personal life. They turned it into a pile of rubble, as anyone can read here. The writing quality is enough to embarrass a twelve-year old. And that's probably the idea, IMO. The primary editor of that article had thanked me for improving the personal life material, after months of research and using numerous key sources. Blofeld is now beginning to demolish it like his team did to Sellers. I wonder what Kubrick and Sellers had in common? --20:21, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

You're not helping your case by maintaining the battleground attitude here, trying to drag me into this when the only reason I have the Kubrick page on my watchlist was from NFC issues years ago. Yes, some of what Blofeld added was not really well suited, but note the difference between suggesting that trivia be cut down for improvements and holding a grudge from a different article. The ban from editing the Sellers article seems well merited until you can drop this attitude and work cooperatively. --MASEM (t) 21:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The ban from editing Sellers has been in effect for about two years. Every attempt to change punctuation or almost any other minor change by me or anyone else, has gotten reverted often without the courtesy of a rationale. A new editor tried to make some change yesterday, calmly discussed it, and still got pulverized with uncivility immediately. Maybe we should add the new editor to the proposed ban, just to make sure he doesn't try to improve things again. I do make comments on the Sellers talk page, but banning that kind of activity by a civil editor would amount to eliminating freedom of speech, not something I'm used to on this side of the pond. I do not use uncivil language, which is a bit tricky when pounced on by the PA team. --Light show (talk) 22:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

It is a lie to say there has been a ban on editing the page. Numerous people have improved the article and their edits stand. Those who introduce errors, change spellings (and punctuation) to AmEng variants, or introduce unsupported information or delete sourced information may be reverted, with an explanation. The editor yesterday (with whom the discussion continues) was not "pulverised" with anything, although he has been requested not to make personal remarks about other editors (he is extremely new and has not yet learnt the ropes here). You manage to turn up to pretty much every thread, and will bitch about the article, linking back to one of the many, many RfCs you started during the re-write (which the community decided against your opinion on nearly every one). Your negativity on the Sellers page has been seen in comments on threads on Chaplin, Kubrick, and I think one or two others, and I sincerely hope this will bring an end to it. – SchroCat (talk) 22:33, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

We haven't banned you, we have disagreed with your attempts to try and "improve" the article. Your edits were not an improvement and went against everything which seemingly passed the strict reviewers at peer review, GAN and FAC. But somehow, you think you're above all that and when you were rebuffed, you snipe at the "state of the article". Two years...of that! Cassianto^talk 22:36, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Should anyone need an example of the exact opposite, note comments by another new editor to Sellers, who also had some suggestions. They were logical ones, so I chimed in with a link to a similar issue from an earlier discussion. I was speaking to the new editor, User:Wordreader, yet the team members came charging over the hill like a bolt of lightning, with swords out:

Troll elsewhere:your endless bitching and sniping is deep in the territory of tedium, and your toxic rumblings have done nothing positive to this article. . . .

Needless to say, that editor, who later wrote: I find the comments of SchroCat and Cassianto to be disparaging and rude, also hasn't returned. That's the kind if banning I'm referring to, the psyop kind. Very effective. --Light show (talk) 23:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming that as soon a someone makes a comment you "chime in" with the same old comment that links to one of the pointless threads you implemented during the least enjoyable editing experience I suffered on Wikipedia. As to Wordreader, I agreed with his comment, and less than an hour after he had posted his comment, I edited the article to overcome his issue, and commented appropriately in the talk page. All you did was bitch and moan. Can you not see a) just how annoying and depressing it is for others for you to constantly bitching about the same topic, and b) why this thread has been proposed by a third party with no axe to grind here? As to saying Wordreader hasn't returned because of the comments, I find that so dubious to be laughable. – SchroCat (talk) 23:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Why not ask him? And that third party proposer, out of the blue, accused me of gaming user ratings, so your editing team wouldn't be too embarrassed, I presume. Oddly, all user ratings disappeared from WP soon after. --Light show (talk) 23:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

And note that the above discussion in the link, whereby I was immediately attacked, took place just a few months after the team began their editing of Sellers. Back then, SchroCat made comments like: Hi Wikiwatcher. I've finished my major overhaul of the "Personal life" section and this is now actually smaller than the previous version and a lot tighter than it was: I hope that you'll agree this is much more balanced than it was before. or . I'll be starting shortly on updating various bits, but any thoughts or suggestions are always welcome! Cheers -, or please let me know if you have any better ideas—this is just an initial suggestion! Within a few weeks, his comments took on a different tone, I've got a few other books knocking around, including a largely unread copy of the Lewis book (how much bile and hatred in one book can there be?!) so I hope we can get something fairly special out of it. Cheers And a few weeks later, he stopped using "Cheers" to sign off. And Sellers, IMO, is now in the cellar. Cheers.--Light show (talk) 00:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Those of us who support a ban are more than tired of being served Wikiwatcher/Light show WP:SOUP regardless of the type. This is the Skelton talk page, yet your inane nattering about the Sellers article found its way there. If there wasn't an agenda, this wouldn't have been posted there by you. We hope (talk) 23:26, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

If any neutral editor read those comments, they'd have a hard time calling it anything but totally logical and inherently beneficial to discuss. So I'm glad that was the best you could find.--Light show (talk) 23:55, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:SOUP's on again! We hope (talk) 00:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Improvements? Says who? Cassianto^talk 20:14, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment – re-reading the exchanges above, I wonder is it normal for a new user to register a username solely for the purpose of intervening at a discussion such as this? It looks rather as though this is an interested user flying a flag of convenience (a sock-puppet, I think is the WP term). Is it possible for Elaqueate to identify him/herself as a separate entity, please? – Tim riley talk 20:10, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Give me a break. This: is it normal for a new user to register a username solely for the purpose of intervening at a discussion such as this? is completely fabricated. What is wrong with you?__ E L A Q U E A T E 20:26, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want a break, then log off and log back in as Light show... Cassianto^talk 20:34, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I sincerely doubt that Elaqueate, a user who has been editing here since Aug 2013, is a sock of Light Show. Such an accusation would need significant evidence. Chillum 20:41, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Chillum: see Elaqueate, that's all you needed to say in response to my first question to you. Now all Elaqueate has to do is show me "the personal attacks" I have made against them and who called him/her shit? Cassianto^talk 20:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually if you are interested in that then go to their talk page. This is not the appropriate place for you two to bicker. Chillum 20:58, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

It's appropriate inasmuch that it was a question which he/she failed to answer. If he/she had of told me their interest in the case to start with then we wouldn't be here now. Their failure to answer even prompted someone else to ask. My original question was a civil, pertinent and innocent question to ask which was ignored. That is why we are here now. Anyway, moving on... Cassianto^talk 21:06, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Chillum, I don't want an editor who just accused me of sock puppetry without proof and said But thanks for showing your true colours which owing to the aforementioned shitty stick, is now brown I see. anywhere near my talk page. I think I've been pretty patient after being told my true colors are shit brown, but I don't need to deal with more of it. __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:14, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't care if you two go to one of your talk pages or not. Do not engage in back and forth bickering about each other in a topic about another user. The noise being added to this discussion is not helpful. Rule of thumb, if you are talking about someone other than Light Show then you are posting in the wrong place. Chillum 21:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

As far as Light show, I'm beginning to see why there are only "Supports" here, even though I can see that various editors supported some of Light show's suggestions on the concerned talk pages at times. Whatever Light show's behavior, it seems to have been met with some pretty nasty business in return. I didn't even cast a !vote and I was told to "butt out", asked to identify myself twice, was told my true color is shit brown, and had a sock puppet accusation as a "new user". I wonder how much filth I would have gotten if I'd actually !voted. Something's off here but it looks more entrenched than anything I'd want to spend too much time on. It doesn't look exactly one-sided to someone outside of whatever bubble people are editing in. __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:25, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The real rule of thumb, practiced by the team, is "The best defense is a good offense." Hence, an editor going to ANI about uncivility by a tag team, turns into a proposal to ban the complaining editor. Forget the rampant uncivility. Or when some new editor calmly suggests changes on a Sellers talk page, notice how the new editor is set upon immediately by the team. Very sobering and discouraging stuff. You would have been amazed at seeing how the team jumped on some other editors who were also criticizing Sellers at its peer review. --Light show (talk) 21:43, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

* Oppose. At least on the Peter Sellers Talk page some of the above have presented a caustic environment for those that disagreed with them. I disagreed with some of the above folks and User:Light show disagreed with some of the above folks. I don't think these comments are proper for Talk page use:

• "Why is it the same people turning up time and time again here? A couple of times it's easy to assume good faith but this sort of thing seems to happen every few weeks."

• "And, once again, it's trivial shit by someone who never met of knew either man."

• ""The reader may want to know why Sellers' was attracted to playing the role of Wingate. -- Then again, they may not give a toss. Now move along, there is nothing to see here! "

• "These are trolls, pure a simple. Let's stop feeding them."

• "THIS IS NOT OUR FUCKING OPINION, IT IS THE VIEW OF THE AUTHOR OF THE BOOK! Dr. B has addressed that. Now for gods sake move on!"

Just my opinion. Bus stop (talk) 22:13, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

So you "oppose" here based on our comments? Sorry, I thought it was Light show on offer here because of his behaviour? This is not a valid vote as you have missed the point of this proposal entirely. If I remember rightly, you accused the article and us of anti-semitism? Cassianto^talk

There has been some incivility, I don't think anyone supporting this proposal would deny that, but what do you really expect when someone has sustained a 2-year campaign to junk other people's work? The problem isn't really the incivility, that's just a symptom; the problem—and it's a fundamental one—is that you have an editor who is committed to a vastly inferior version of the article and who won't let go. The reason I proposed an article ban (and I did intend for that to include talk page input) is that I simply don't see how to resolve Light year's continued involvement in the article with maintaining its quality. You can see from the tone of this discussion just how much bad blood there is, and if it isn't ended here then it will almost certianly continue back at the article. Do SchroCat and Cassianto have another two years of this haranguing to put up with? What happens if they get so sick of it they withdraw and let Light year do what he wants to the article? The truth is it's a great article and it wouldn't be out of place in a professional encyclopedia, so the community should take action to safeguard articles of that quality. Betty Logan (talk) 04:22, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment

Hello All

I'm a "newbie" so please treat me well. Please excuse typos and bad grammar, formatting etc. I think there are a lot of experienced editors here. Some of you have done some great work and rightly some of your articles have been promoted to FA status.

However, with your experience a little arrogance has crept in, and with that you've forgotten that anyone can edit these articles regardless of experience. This is the golden rule and the overriding principle.

Any disputes are discussed on talk pages. However, I've come across something that is worse than vandalism on these pages.

Some of these articles have over 300 notes and references. A majority of these pointing to a handful of books and their page numbers. But also sophisticated named ref tags as well. Deleting lines also means deleting these named tags. There is a lot of hard work put into them. The people who have created them have read all these books and created these references.

These editors have done some painstaking research. In this pursuit they have become quite experienced and are aware of all the rules and coding. However, this is where the arrogance creeps in, and worse still, they have become "experts". They then start forgetting the Wikipedian principles and become corrupted in their overzealousness.

If you look at my experience, as an example, on the "Peter Sellers" Talk page you can see that a group of editors who have clubbed together and built FAs are commenting. Some of the FAs are very good...and here's the problem....some of them are not.

1. When the editors are challenged and and it becomes one editor vs another "separate" editor and it is merely a difference of opinion. If the "separate editor" stands their ground, another editor from the club steps in and sides with their fellow FA editor.

2. At this points the consensus principle is abused.

3. Here's where the sophistication comes in. A third editor steps in and becomes disparaging and also sides with their fellow FA editor. Opening statements are also confrontational. A distraction to anger/wind-up the "separate" editor from the original argument which gets lost into, and deteriorates, into mudslinging. Since all three club members have the consensus there is no chance for dissent or objectivity on FAs.

This "ganging up" tactic is worse than vandalism. It's perfectly good editors who have become corrupt and forgotten the Wikipedia golden rule is (and in the words of Brian Cohen) is that "we are all individuals". This "gang"/club consensus should be avoided.

Light show is quite passionate and annoying to some of you, but they are on their own fighting their own point of view. They are entitled to be as challenging as they want. You can't shrug the principle because you don't like someone.

If you choose to block this editor from the "Sellers" article, then equally, SchroCat, Cassianto and Dr. Blofeld need to be banned/blocked from this article too. I believe Tim riley is part of the same club as well, and should also be blocked. If there are others, please point them out.

It'll be a painful object lesson for them all, however, they need to realise that "gang mentality" or bullying is unacceptable on Wikipedia.

Administrators please investigate this more widely. If there are already existing rules regarding "editor clubs" please make those on this thread aware. If there is not, then I have highlighted a policy problem.

Newcomers to Wikipedia will be put off by this type of hostility. Wikipedia is one of the great achievements of the net neutral internet. Please don't wreck it with bad behaviour and the arrogant assumption that you are the true "experts".

Please note I am not a sock puppet for Light show.

Good luck all and happy editing! MrBalham2 (talk) 08:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

As I have explained to you previously, having people disagree with you isn’t "ganging-up": it's part of the way things are discussed and agreed upon here, and once you have been editing for more than ten days you will come to appreciate that. In other words, people joining in discussions is how we reach a consensus, and is to be encouraged: just because people disagreed with you, does not mean that anyone has been "ganging up" on you. This has all been explained to you before, and you have not taken it on board, just as you did not seem to take on board explanations in the talk page. WP:ICANTHEARYOU is not a good way to start your Wiki life, and I sincerely hope that you read and take on board other people's comments, both in talk and forums such as this. - SchroCat (talk) 08:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I've let it go on on the "Sellers" talk page. Don't worry! That discussion is closed. I'm illustrating your process of consensus here.

I've already highlighted your method and how I think the consensus process can be abused, so have other editors. Administrators can decide on whether that process was fair and whether you and your Wiki colleagues should be blocked from that article. I'm merely highlighting your methods in discussions. I'm entitled give my views and experience of that process. Your tactics are under scrutiny. MrBalham2 (talk) 10:16, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Putting forward a reasonable opinion on a talk page about edits isn't a "tactic": it's how wiki works, and I am not sure that with your ten-days experience here that you've fully grasped that. Additionally, just because other editors disagree with you, doesn't mean there is anything underhand about it: that's how we build a consensus, and how the consenus changes. - SchroCat (talk) 10:32, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, I'm clear about the consensus process. It is you and your Wiki colleagues' approach to that process with any editor (not just me) that is under scrutiny on this page. It is up to Administrators to decide whether that process was fair. I hope you concur. MrBalham2 (talk) 11:07, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you are not clear about consensus on Wiki, given your comments here and at the Sellers talk page, and that you are still in WP:ICANTHEARYOU territory here. I'm sure that your ten-days of in-depth experience here has provided you with a vast amount of knowledge of how this all works, but you're just not taking on board what is being explained to you. As to what is under scrutiny on this thread, it is not my approach, but a proposal as to whether Light show should be banned from editing on the Sellers page and talk page. - SchroCat (talk) 11:30, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Administrators need to get the whole picture. This will include Light show's grievances. Light show has used my case as an illustration on this thread. This includes you and your Wiki colleagues' approach to that process with any editor (not just me) that is also under scrutiny on this page. It is up to Administrators to decide whether that process was fair. I'm entitled to express my views. Thanks. MrBalham2 (talk) 12:52, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Reality check: Earth calling Balham – how would a ban on editing the Peter Sellers article make any difference to an editor (me) whose total contribution to it was correcting three typos in August the year before last? – Tim riley talk 13:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

If you're innocent then there's nothing to worry about! I think you work with the aforementioned Wiki colleague on other FAs. Administrators need to be aware if FAs are becoming "no go" editing areas apart from a select few.i.e. if an FA editor is having difficulty with a another "unfamiliar editor" standing their ground then other Wiki colleagues swoop in to help out by applying a consensus. I think it's a practice that should be stamped out. It goes against Wikipedia principles. MrBalham2 (talk) 13:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

A "no-go" editing area like this edit, which was made and is still present on the page? Or are you just complaining because when you deleted half a paragraph of pertinent information it was reverted? There is absolutely nothing "no go" about editing on the article, as the evidence of one of your extant edits shows. - SchroCat (talk) 14:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I was content with both edits. Including your reversion. My attempt was to transfer the information to its correct area and reduce a overlong para I accepted your revert. It was when I suggested a reasonable alternative is when the "team" swooped in with the tactics I mentioned earlier. I have now been made aware by other editors that this is common practice with you and your like-minded colleagues. The Administrators need to be aware that this happens. If there isn't a policy then there should be one to stamp the practice out. Wikipedia is for all (even the one's who make your editing life hell) and not and for a select few "gatekeepers". MrBalham2 (talk) 15:00, 8 September 2014 (UTC).

MrBalham2 wrote (emphasis added): "I have now been made aware by other editors that this is common practice with you and your like-minded colleagues." Sorry to "swoop in", but this page is on my watchlist, as indeed is "Peter Sellers", and I couldn't help picking up this discussion. So who has told you this "now", and where? Your claim about "common practice" does not seem at all evident to me in this discussion you've had with a third party, where you have been told quite clearly that "you need to be careful about editing featured articles since featured articles are the highest standard of quality there is"; and "The fact that the editors you are in conflict with are all quite experienced. You are free to request a FAR; however, you must be prepared to have a result that you are not quite happy with." Alfietucker (talk) 15:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That has also struck me, and I have asked MrBalham on his talk page about this. - SchroCat (talk) 15:30, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what the others were implying? The link to the third party discussion is a very good example on how you make new editors feel after such an experience of “being ganged up” on. Yes I am aware of FAR suggestion. Thanks for pointing it out. I was made “aware" by reading Light show’s exmaples further up this thread. I didn’t need need to be “told” by anyone.MrBalham2 (talk) 18:07, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, the beauty of private email! Cassianto^talk 15:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure MrBalham2 is aware that there are already policies related to tag teams. Luckily, he seems to understand the common sense policies of civility, which is one of the pillars supporting WP, and probably civilization itself. But, like me, is taken aback that that a basic pillar can be ignored and overturned so easily by so many. Hence, the original ANI against two boastfully uncivil editors, even to other editors on this page, is immediately hijacked into a proposal to ban the complainant, who no one has shown to have ever made uncivil comments.

Regarding accusations that I've created a "battlefield atmosphere" on the talk page, I can assure your the exact opposite is the case. A quick example can be seen here, where the alleged team, shortly after coming to the Sellers article begins to demolish it without discussion, attacks every editor commenting, and gains the immediate support of teammates: Local editor being SchroCat. It is he who has single handedly turned this article's fortunes around and made it a serious future contender for FAC for which he should be applauded not villified. Recall that those two editors began their editing blitz on Sellers shortly before, and 5 minutes apart. And of course a quick look at the Sellers talk page over the last few days proves that the battlefield mentality is created against any editors, and by only one group: the team. --Light show (talk) 17:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the support Light show. I don't entirely agree with you about the Peter Sellers article but SchroCat is a great editor...although too stubborn for me, Good luck to you both on the outcome. MrBalham2 (talk) 18:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. I have no previous experience of the Peter Sellers or related articles. I was on this page because of an unrelated matter. But I think the responses to MrBalham2's politely phrased comment more than adequately illustrate the problems with these editors' attitude and behavior. "I'm sure that your ten-days of in-depth experience here has provided you with a vast amount of knowledge of how this all works, but you're just not taking on board what is being explained to you", "Reality check: Earth calling Balham", "Ah, the beauty of private email!" Whether or not these editors liked what the editor had to say, these are not reasoned or reasonable responses. Just looking at the current revision of the talk page, I see what I would consider intolerable rudeness to Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) by SchroCat, with Cassianto chipping in at the end with "I can't work out if your niceness is masking a patronising and flippant overtone, or if you are actually being pleasant. I will AGF and assume the latter." And the reader is expected to assume the assumption of good faith. SchroCat wrote above, "As to what is under scrutiny on this thread, it is not my approach, but a proposal as to whether Light show should be banned from editing on the Sellers page and talk page." Actually, no. The Light show ban is just a sub-section; the thread is about the behavior of SchroCat and Cassianto. (Note: all of this is without prejudice as to the outcome concerning Light show). Scolaire (talk) 19:47, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• That's all well and good if you ignore the fact that Norton was edit warring, breaking citations, introducing errors and cutting across cited material by trying to force a citation that didn't support the information he claimed it did. You can ignore the degradation of a quality article if you want, but I'm not sure it's the most sensible approach to article development, do you? – SchroCat (talk) 20:11, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• I think it's clear that some people, including Scolaire, would rather read a shite article which is littered with POV, mistakes, bad prose and dodgy referencing just so long as everyone who contributes are lovely to one another. This, it seems, is more favourable than reading a featured article and having to - although not needing to - read a few "rude and disparaging" comments from those who are protecting the article from slipping into the gutter. In an ideal world everybody would get on famously on featured talk pages, but this is not an ideal world. If it was, I would be shacked up with Jennifer Lawrence! Cassianto^talk 20:24, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Wouldn't this be an issue to take to WP:DRN? Anyway, it would be good if Light show, and Cassianto and SchroCat, avoid talking to each other in regards to the article anywhere, not just on the article talk page. It may be that Light may have some useful comments, given the above exchanges, and that Cass's and Schro's comments, while justifiably angry because they've worked so hard to get this to Featured status, come out as too harsh. So, I'm not voting either way, but I think a topic ban doesn't resolve many problems if there are some useful suggestions, at least. In fact, an interaction ban would be more appropriate if considered. Epicgenius (talk) 20:37, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I've tried avoiding interacting with them as much as possible. My few recent comments on Sellers' talk were to other editors who had some suggestions. They were logical ones, so I naturally chimed in to help. I was speaking to the new editor, User:Wordreader, yet the team members came charging over the hill like a bolt of lightning, with swords out:

Troll elsewhere:your endless bitching and sniping is deep in the territory of tedium, and your toxic rumblings have done nothing positive to this article. . . .

Needless to say, that editor, who later wrote: I find the comments of SchroCat and Cassianto to be disparaging and rude, hasn't returned. And the following talk editor has also left for good. The team should simply be banned from ever interacting with me or discussing me, everything would go fine. I have no desire to talk with them again, ever since they turned on me:

Hi Wikiwatcher. I've finished my major overhaul of the "Personal life" section . . . I hope that you'll agree this is much more balanced than it was before, or I'll be starting shortly on updating various bits, but any thoughts or suggestions are always welcome! Cheers, or please let me know if you have any better ideas—this is just an initial suggestion! --Light show (talk) 21:37, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

If anyone wants any more examples of why this proposal has been made, Light show's most recent edit should provide enough reason of what people have had to put up with over the last two years:

You can be 100% certain that Blofeld knows exactly what he/they are again doing. The same as they successfully did to Sellers, ie. make it "incomprehensible", by making it unreadable. He/they quickly moved in with chain-saws and earth-movers to demolished 2,000, well-written, fully descriptive words of clear prose about his personal life. They turned it into a pile of rubble, as anyone can read here. The writing quality is enough to embarrass a twelve-year old. And that's probably the idea, IMO. The primary editor of that article had thanked me for improving the personal life material, after months of research and using numerous key sources. Blofeld is now beginning to demolish it like his team did to Sellers. I wonder what Kubrick and Sellers had in common? --20:21, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Enough is enough of this obsession with the Sellers article, with the constant sniping and complaining, and with continuing to spread this nonsense onto the Chaplin and Kubrick talk pages. DRN? I think we're way beyond that with Light show's approach. – SchroCat (talk) 20:40, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

So, no DRN then? Maybe an IBAN is better, as described above. Epicgenius (talk) 20:46, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

@SchroCat. Then maybe next time an editor goes to ANI about a general issue of uncivility, everywhere, you and your team don't hijack it into a proposal to ban that complainant from so much as talking on Peter Sellers. --Light show (talk) 20:51, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Most of what you say is wrong and a hinderance to the article, so maybe next time you will learn to think before you type. Cassianto^talk 21:03, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• For someone who claims never to be uncivil, you do an awful lot of uncivil accusations. There is no "team": there are individual editors who are making their own value judgements. As for something turning back on the complainant, it's called WP:PETARD, and it is the community that is discussing things here in an open forum! no "team" of anyone's. - SchroCat (talk) 20:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support It is not right or fair that editors who come here in good faith to work on this encyclopaedia should have to endure this sort of disruptive treatment, and for as long as as they have had to endure it. If individual editors cannot work on an article collegially then they should not be allowed to work on it at all. Jack1956 (talk) 21:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• I make 16 supports to 2 oppose a consensus to have Light show switched off on Sellers, Kubrick, Chaplin etc including talk pages. Are their any admins looking in who can close this pantomime now? Cassianto^talk 21:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Ukraine: Volunteer Marek's pre-discussion removal of POV tag (twice)

As you can see here [96], 69 minutes after I tagged 2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine with a POV tag, it was removed by  Volunteer Marek . The Talk page discussion is here: [97]. Seven days earlier, 76 minutes after I attached it, he removed a POV tag I attached to the same article. Here is the diff: [98]. Note the lively and diverse discussion of the POV tag that had begun on August 31during those 76 minutes: [99] In both instances I make numerous factual claims regarding the more or less anti-Russian, anti-rebel bias of the entry, and his response is not to respond to any of that but instead to claim without substantiation that I'm engaging in WP:IDONTLIKEIT. In any case, I don't believe Volunteer Marek understands that a POV tag is just supposed to mean a substantial number of editors think an article is biased. I hope someone can get him to conform to the final sentence of the following: "The neutrality of this article is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved." Otherwise, I hope he can be blocked from editing POV tags.Haberstr (talk) 15:18, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't "pre-discussion". There was a discussion, in addition to the fact that the tagging was spurious and disruptive. Haberstr (and one other editor) appear to believe that if reliable sources don't support their own POV then they get to tag the article and bully others into acquiescing to letting them POV the article by holding the article hostage via the POV tag. This is disruptive behavior as well as violation of WP:POINT.

Additionally Haberstr has been making wild accusations against anyone who disagrees with him, about conspiracies and the like. Here's diffs, but I'm actually going to take this to WP:AE which is much better suited to dealing with this kind of behavior [100] [101] [102] [103] and this discussion in general [104] where several editors and an admin have warned Haberstr about his behavior. And that's just what I can quickly round up with a few clicks.

And btw, the POV tag DOES NOT mean that "substantial number of editors think an article is biased" - never-mind that this claim is just not true. Wikipedia is not a democracy. If a bunch of WP:BATTLEGROUND-warriors don't like a particular article because it is not in accordance with their personal viewpoint, but the article is reliably sourced and well written, they DON'T get to tag it up or hold the article hostage. POV tag is for when the article is not written with accordance to Wikipedia guidelines, as outlined at WP:NPOV, not for somebody's WP:IDONTLIKEIT.

I might as well point out that the Ukrainian-crisis related articles have been subject to ongoing problems by highly POV, battleground minded accounts and users, many of them socks or newly registered SPAs. This is just more of the same, and reasonable people are getting really tired of dealing with it. Volunteer Marek  15:36, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

It's factually impossible to have a Wikipedia discussion in an hour. Let's start there. The tagging is always agreed with by many editors, even when you have erased it in a little over an hour. POV tagging is appropriate when there is sharp disagreement among editors about whether an entry is biased. That is obviously the case, as you can see by the input on the talk pages, regarding many if not all of the main Ukraine conflict articles. So, your defense on this issue is 'no defense'. You admit to the charge and falsely accuse me of being tendentious. But tendentiousness involves loners going off on their own on some obscure point. Here I would imagine the majority of Wikipedia editors agree that the pro-Maidan, anti-Russian editors have greatly damaged Wikipedia's reputation by their POV editing of Ukraine conflict encyclopedia entries. Most have given up because they can't counter the POV editors' numbers. I have essentially given up too, but just want to mark the obviously POV articles as POV. I was surprised you stopped me from doing so, blatantly violating a fundamental Wikipedia policy.Haberstr (talk) 00:09, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, right: I've been editing continually on a wide variety of Wikipedia entries since July 2007.Haberstr (talk) 00:09, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

No one has said the POV tag 'means' that. It simply a fact, note my emphasis on them, that many editors come to my support when I insert a POV tag. Many editors also, all across entry talk pages, discuss the absolutely disgusting and obvious bias of many Ukraine conflict entries.Haberstr (talk) 00:09, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not going to comment on the substance of this matter, but I will note that Haberstr has been made aware of the discretionary sanctions for Eastern European articles. Despite this, he continues to make wild accusations and snide personal attacks. There is no pro-Ukrainian cabal (junta) that is out to get him, that much I can say firmly. RGloucester — ☎ 15:47, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
• Im not sure if it is related or not but the same editor also had a dispute over at Talk:2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine#POV tag attached. Strongly pro-Maidan and anti-separatist/federalist, which includes the naming of the entry. involving a POV tag. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

It is relevant as evidence of a long-standing violation of Wikipedia policy and civility by pro-NATO, anti-Russian editors, in which they quickly delete POV tags, blocking discussion. But in that case it was POV editor User:Iryna_Harpy removing the tag, not Volunteer Marek.Haberstr (talk) 00:14, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Before you go on casting WP:ASPERSIONS as to POV editing, my explanation for the removal of the tag is to be found directly under your creation of the section once you'd tagged it, as well as being clearly identified in my edit summary when I removed the tag from the article. This was further qualified in my comment on the fact that I was well aware of the fact that you had tag bombed a few articles simultaneously. I believe that your position that there is some form of cabal out to get 'neutral' editors - as you are attempting to present yourself as being - has already been addressed by others from the grab-bag you've nominated as being part of a 'cabal' via some strange, personal selection criterion/criteria which exists in your own mind. Please don't project your own WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality onto other editors.

And, yes, Knowledgekid87 - Haberstr is the same editor who tag bombed articles within a short period of time with nothing but a generalised template formula for the corresponding talk pages which amounted to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Further comment - Should we add canvassing to your history of WP:TE, Haberstr? See entries to:

1. Russiansunited
2 Moscow Connection
3. MyMoloboaccount
4. HiLo48
5. Mondschein English
6. Sceptic1954
7. The Devil's Advocate
8. Darouet
9. Drajay1976
10. Ism schism

Posting a section title of "The POV editors are trying to ban me for NPOV edits of Ukraine conflict entries" on someone's talk page is just a tad WP:POINTy, wouldn't you say? What's the selection criteria for 'neutral' editors you've targeted for support, Haberstr? The only common link I can ascertain as existing between the somewhat copious list of supporters you're trying to drum up is that they have all been involved in content disputes with the editors you're accusing of being part of a junta? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:46, 7 September 2014 (UTC) (EDIT) --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:02, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

'Not listening to you'-behavior

2014 Israel–Gaza conflict (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Summary: How does one handle instances where two (or more) editors on the same part of the political spectrum apply "Not Listening... nananannaa!" mentality against others, and in doing so, ignore the most recent (clearly) factual data when presented on discussion?

Samples:

• "I simply ignore most of what MarciulionisHOF says." [105]
• "I share your policy and ignore the fellow" [106]

• Material ignored: In June 2014, a unity government was sworn in by Fatah President, who also picked, among many others from Fatah, a Fatah Prime Minister.
• Sources used to ignore: mostly from 2012 and earlier.
• Editors ignored: I believe there was no consensus -- something in the area of 5^* vs 3 is hardly unanimous and a sign-off to do what you want and change the article:
• "If nobody objects to "Hamas-governed", I will change it. (Or anyone else can)." 16:32, 4 September 2014
• "Read it again. "Governed" is wrong on a number of levels." 18:58, 4 September 2014
• "as per talk page consensus" 19:04, 4 September 2014

^* one of the 5 had a fringe idea (i.e. Israel controls borders, so Hamas is not in control) but at least it is from 2014.

Thank you in advance on any advice regarding "I can't hear you" behavior. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 15:28, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

p.s. other than me, there are 7 editors involved in talk section, 4 of them mentioned or directly appearing in the links I provided but I haven't made any one of these into THE issue - I'm not opening a section "about an editor". My point is, I don't know whether this merits notifying all of them or a few of them or non -- I'm a newbie looking for guidance. I'm not trying to get anyone into trouble. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 15:33, 6 September 2014 (UTC) fixes MarciulionisHOF (talk) 15:35, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

If it concerns most of the editors on the page, then notify all of them. If it only concerns one or two, than notify those. Alternatively, you could individually notify those who the post is most relevant to, then place {{subst:Ani-notice}} on the talk page so everyone else would be aware of the discussion also. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 15:59, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

A bit laborious, but I notified everyone here. Thank you. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 16:13, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea what the issue is. I said, "if nobody objects, I will change it". People did object, and I did not change it. After some more discussion, someone else made the change, claiming consensus. It could have been reverted per WP:BRD if it was disputed, or objected to on the talk page. As to the rest, I am not forced to listen and respond to every comment made. Kingsindian (talk) 19:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Misrepresentation by Tarc

Tarc (talk · contribs) has been misrepresenting comments made by me relating to the Gender Gap discussions that have recently been closed here. Their response to one of my comments and a minor clarification was to accuse me of being boorish and of somehow not believing that there is a gender gap problem on Wikipedia. I asked for a diff to support their accusation but they have consistently failed to do so, eg: one response was this and there is a thread at User_talk:Tarc#ANI_thread.

Ok, that's just one misrepresentation but then they made another here where they accused me of having written a screed yesterday accusing the project of using the mailing list to organize meatpuppets. They had no basis for that further accusation, as I tried to point out to them in this series of edits.

Tarc has now adopted the same course as Carolmooredc adopts when faced with a problem of their own making. Instead of apologising or retracting, they've suggested that they will ban me from their talk page and accused me of yet more things.

Anecdotally, I've seen comments in the past from people who have queried Tarc's ability to comprehend the statements of others. I've no idea whether Tarc's first language is English or not. Is there really a comprehension competence problem here or is it just one of plain rudeness, of misrepresenting for effect etc? Can someone perhaps have a word before their unfounded accusations against me become a part of the usual folklore based on scant fact that is repetitively trotted out by the likes of Carolmooredc. - Sitush (talk) 16:44, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

If someone suggests you don't continue posting to their talk page, stop. It's a very easy thing to do. Are you demanding talk page access here?__ E L A Q U E A T E 16:51, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Have you actually read what I said above, including the diffs? It doesn't look like it. - Sitush (talk) 16:57, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't know if Tarc speaks English, you don't know if I can read; it sounds like the world is filled with things to learn and discover. So, looking at the diff, you're objecting to the suggestion of the possibility of a potential future ban from a user talk page. Maybe he's not taking your buttercup-friendly comments in the spirit you're giving them? Either way, it's their talk page and you're not entitled to post your random thoughts there, if you're coming off as rude and patronizing (which those comments could be seen as, honestly).__ E L A Q U E A T E 17:10, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not bothered about being banned from that talk page. I am bothered about someone making misrepresentations, refusing to correct them and instead seemingly expanding on them. I am particularly bothered about it because the Gender Gap related discussions seem commonly to be perpetuating myths, half-truths etc about what people have said and because the main voice in those discussions has a documented habit of repeatedly drawing on those, even when irrelevant to the issue at hand. Tarc's misrepresentations of me will become set in stone unless someone sets that record straight. - Sitush (talk) 17:21, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I think this entire dispute should goto Arbcom, this is nuts and I feel that people here are getting fed up with it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:30, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I am getting fed up of it and I've barely contributed to the discussions at Talk:GGTF. I'm not sure of the grounds that would be used for referral to ArbCom. - Sitush (talk) 17:34, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, that original comment contains your advice prodding Carolmooredc to write down some kind of an ersatz "enemies list" somewhere. I don't think that's usually allowed by policy, and rightfully so. Maybe you didn't mean it exactly that way, but I think people will agree that you were giving not-very-helpful advice at the time, as Carole could be censured if she followed your advice. And you do seem to be asking what could arguably be seen as a loaded question regarding meatpuppetry and the mailing list, in the sense of "To what extent does your project harm puppies?" and then protesting that you never meant any puppy-hurting would ever happen. I don't know how much of what you said will be "set in stone" but I also don't know what you're trying to achieve here. I don't think you've started this without throwing some insinuations of your own.__ E L A Q U E A T E 17:39, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I didn't suggest that she made an "enemies" list and she is well aware of what she can and cannot do (she has asked about keeping lists of diffs on-wiki for possible use in ANI reports, for example, previously). If you think that I have insinuated anything here then just say what those things are and I'll provide some diffs. I, on the other hand, have not accused Tarc of insinuating anything here: they've massively misrepresented and I'm not sure it that is a comprehension issue or deliberate. - Sitush (talk) 17:44, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, if you're not sure, and your words can be interpreted a few ways, then I think we've all learned an important lesson here.__ E L A Q U E A T E 17:47, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

No, my words cannot be interpreted in a few ways. And I am sure that Tarc is wrong, for which ever reason it may be, and that it needs to be dealt with. - Sitush (talk) 17:50, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

And I am sure that Tarc is wrong, for which ever reason it may be... This sounds close to demanding a crime found to meet the sentence.__ E L A Q U E A T E 18:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. You are twisting things. Just take me as read: I'm not a complicated person and I'm not a schemer. - Sitush (talk) 18:06, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't stop you from unfair comment about your fellow editors. This thread is not constructive__ E L A Q U E A T E 20:24, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• @Sitush:. No, they won't become set in stone, that hardly ever happens. (Admittedly, it's set in stone that I'm a toxic personality, but that was Jimbo, not Tarc.) The sooner you disengage, the sooner they'll be forgotten, and they're altogether not worth chewing over in this way. @Tarc: Please don't call people "boorish" (an extremely poor choice of words) and suchlike, that can only inflame a situation. Bishonen | talk 17:44, 6 September 2014 (UTC).

Situshi seems to object to various criticisms leveled by Tarc, and to prove the point Situshi vaguely points to edits and remarks made by CarolMooreDC. So CMDC is the strawman/strawwoman and is thereby subjected to NPA violations. Those comments about CMDC should be {{rpa}}/redacted. – S. Rich (talk) 17:49, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, Srich, the arbiter who manages to piss off both Eric and Carol with supposedly well-intentioned pseudo-admin interventions? Tell me which criticisms need support and I'll provide the diffs - unlike Tarc, I have no objection to doing so. - Sitush (talk) 17:52, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

All this is is just spillover from the big Gender Gap discussions above. I took umbrage yesterday to Sitush badgering and browbeating Carolmoore, particularly with the insinuations that the Gendergap mailing list is a place to coordinate meatpuppetry...a theme, it seems, as he harangued the GGTF today with this "warning" about registering at women.com. As if women gathering together to discuss issued they're interested in is in itself nefarious. So ever since, Sitush has hounded me with this "DIFF DIFF DIFF GIMME DIFFS!" crusade, when I have clearly explained (via this response) to him that it is his overall attitude and demeanor, towards Carol and towards the subject itself, that is at fault. That is my answer to his question of "tell me where I said that"; I'm sorry if a wiki-jargon "diff" cannot encompass the entirety of one's sub-par behavior when it runs the gamut from my talk page to An/I to Jimbo's talk page (this secion, which contains colorful gems like "'only an involved idiot does that.

I don't want to bar people from my talk page...I even let some of my former banned foes that I've made amends with lately post there if they have something to say...but it's almost at the point where this particular person is going over the line. Besides the "do you have a reading comprehension" stuff already noted above, Sitush likes to insult via edit summary as well; nonsense - you don't seem even to understand punctuation, stop being an idiot. If he can clean that up, that'd be great. If not, then it's outta my hands. Tarc (talk) 17:50, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I think there is a valid concern that there might be meatpuppets that are being gained from the mailing list. It looks like it's unregulated and any discussion there can lead to a page being edited by request, therefore de facto meat puppetry. Whether that's bad or not is up for debate; especially given it's mostly people who support getting rid of the gender gap. But I don't see him insinuating that there is, just telling you to be cautious about WP:MEAT. to him that it is his overall attitude and demeanor, towards Carol and towards the subject itself, that is at fault. So he's editing with a supposed POV, like everyone else on Wikipedia? Tutelary (talk) 19:45, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

And, yet again, you misrepresent what I said, now including what I said at the GGTF talk today. Are you ever going to stop? - Sitush (talk) 17:54, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe it is called a "difference of opinion", obviously you have a different interpretation, but what I see is you undercutting and undermining the Gender Gap people with insinuations of coordinating off-wiki actions. You'e done it twice; once regarding the mailing list, the second time regarding the women.com registration site. We could allow for the possibility that you did not intend to be so insulting, but to the outside readers here, it comes across as precisely that. You really may want to tone down the "pseudo-admin bollocks again?" stuff, too. Tarc (talk) 18:01, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Instead of assuming that I am talking in code, assume that I mean what I say. It's far easier than trying to read what I deign to call my mind and, more, it is what I meant. - Sitush (talk) 18:04, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Regarding your comment to me above, you've given information about the criticisms from Tarc, and those criticisms are what the community should look at. Supplying diffs by CMDC would be meaningless. And whether I piss off Eric, CMDC, or you does nothing for your case here. – S. Rich (talk) 18:12, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Sitush, the thing is, given the other examples of your poor attitude and demeanor (amply detailed above) towards the gender-gap members, I think my analysis is rather spot-on. Now, I am running back out before the thunderstorms come, engaging in the quaint New England art of haggling over other people's stuff. Until then, have some WP:TEA. Tarc (talk) 18:13, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I really don't give a fuck what you think any more, Tarc. You're obviously not prepared to respond to the point that was originally raised and you're obviously incapable of reading English. WP:CIR, I guess.. - Sitush (talk) 00:22, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

@Sitush I'm not completely sure what this is all about, but please do not resort to insults and assuming things that may not be true. Remember to stay civil. :) Writing Enthusiast ^☎ 00:31, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't insulted anyone, I've commented on my state of mind. As for assuming things that are not true, well, that was the entire point of me raising this issue here because that is exactly what Tarc was doing. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it ... - Sitush (talk) 00:38, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

You've been disruptive and nasty towards the GG task force, taking the side of the primary disruptors who an ANI was filed against above. I called you out on that after your insinuations that they could be up to meatpuppetry. The "do you understand English?" thing is getting a little stale by now, though, do you think you could kinda...knock that off? I'm an Apple-pie eating, love-my-momma type, and have been speaking the good ol' English for 40+ years now. Tarc (talk) 01:10, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Merely correcting a mistatement

Sitush wrote that I and Tarc have "suggested that they will ban me from their talk page". I don't know about Tarc, but in fact Dec 14, 2013 I did ban Sitush from my talk page for constant nitpicking comments I perceived as hostile harassment. (He responded here with "Do you think I really give a crap?"...why on earth you think that I might post on your page again is beyond me...") Nevertheless he has kept posting and I have kept reminding him he is banned: December 21, 2013, July 27, 2014, July 30, 2014. Need I say it again? Sitush has been banned from my talk page since December 14, 2013 [Later clarification: except, obviously for official notices of things that don't belong on article talk pages.) Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Someone else who cannot read. I never suggested that you would ban me; I said that Tarc had suggested they would ban me - you are among those who have been encouraging gender-neutral pronouns etc. As usual, you are turning all of this into a "this is me, let's rehash all the old stuff that I wasn't able to get support for before" history. And you are doing it with a point-y subheading, as is also typical of you, drawing attention to your usually pointless and tendentious "it's all about me" scenario. I've also suggested a solution to the forgetfulness of me and others regarding TP bans by censorsious, non-collaborative editors but Elaqueate has suggested that is inappropriate. The sooner you are banned from this place, the better because you are either not learning despite your many years experience, particularly stupid (unlikely) or deliberately anal. Anyways, I'm out of here. Bish knows why. - Sitush (talk) 00:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Sitush wrote: Tarc has now adopted the same course as Carolmooredc adopts when faced with a problem of their own making. Instead of apologising or retracting, they've suggested that they will ban me from their talk page and accused me of yet more things. Whatever you meant, it sounds like you are saying both us us will ban you, future tense. Don't bring up my name in an irrelevant context and in poorly formed sentences and you wont have these problems. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:13, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

To What problems do you refer? Is it just bad luck to utter your name, or were you making a threat? If so, could you be more explicit? Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 03:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism the interface isn't letting me revert

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Can someone revert the vandalism at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Breakfast. For some reason when I hit hide or delete, it pops up a window, but then doesn't let me enter a reason or finish the hiding/deletion. Monty₈₄₅ 17:32, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

 Done Blame that on WP:flow. --Acetotyce (talk) 17:38, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh god, is that the future? Chillum 17:39, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Yep. Unless the WMF realizes that we have a test wiki for programs like that. --Acetotyce (talk) 17:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Apparent legal threat on the Help desk

See [107], and note the IP's previous posts there. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

And note that previous posts on the subject, obviously from the same editor, came from 2 other IPs: 2605:A601:803:1401:8827:96A8:5D36:863B and 2605:A601:803:1401:C187:6BE4:73:EAF8. --David Biddulph (talk) 19:36, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

In the link Andy has provided, the user explicitly states there is no threat of legal action ("Neither was a threat"). This appears to simply be a discussion of whether Wikipedia follows legal rules of evidence. I don't believe a block is necessary at this point. Mike V • Talk 20:01, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The relevant paragraph in full: "As to legal, I simply told you the facts. Whether Wiki chooses to abide by common legal rules of evidence is Wikis choice as are the potential ramifications that one might point out. Neither was a threat. Just facts". How exactly does talk of "potential ramifications" cease to be an implied legal threat, just because the person claims that it isn't. No threat, no 'ramifications'. And note the IP's previous post: "...someone will eventually challenge that in a law suit..." [108] AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:19, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I dont think it is NLT violation at this point. I think the first was kind of an attempt make wave lawsuit threat and make people wary, but when faced with the WP:NLT, the second posting was an inelegant attempt to save face and back away. (However, a third attempt would be someone who clearly does not get the point.) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not a legal threat, more a misunderstanding on his part that because he may be called in as an "expert witness" in a court case that it has any relevance on Wikipedia, such that he is exempt from Wikipedia's content policies like WP:V. —Farix (t | c) 14:24, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Not a legal threat. At worst it's an attempt to put people on edge or sound important by using legalese. But I'm assuming it's just someone trying to analogize. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 14:31, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  • And explaining Andy's second diff above... what the IP is saying is that because we don't follow the sourcing standards he suggests, Wikipedia will probably get sued by someone about some other article where we got the facts wrong. So it's more a case of sowing fear to win a dispute rather than actually threatening to sue. It's not an uncommon argumentative tactic off-wiki... and while probably not acceptable when used spuriously by established editors, with this editor it merits a warning at worst (and not a NLT warning). —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 14:39, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not a legal threat but repeatedly asking the same question -- annoying creating a new section every time -- is certainly tendentious. I've left a note attempting to firmly point that out and suggest they use the article talk page instead of the help desk. NE Ent 14:44, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Md Torikul Islam (Joypurhat)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Md Torikul Islam (Joypurhat) has persistently removed a speedy deletion tag from My Favorite University List past a level 4 warning. George8211 / T 19:24, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The article has been deleted. --Kinu ^t/_c 20:25, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

He keeps recreating it and removing deletion tags. Reported to ARV. Harry the Dog WOOF 09:05, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Request administrator review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hello, I'm extremely upset right now. I’d like to request that someone at Wikipedia please review my case on Commons. I believe an administrator has blocked my account in retaliation for deleting several inappropriate penis pictures and has subsequently been deleting all of the images I have contributed to commons.

Details can be found at the bottom of my talk page: [109]

Right - I admit that when I had my own, perfectly clean photograph of a knitted willy-warmer (with zero flesh or nudity in sight) declared "disgusting" and deleted along with a whole load of other pictures (some of which I suspect SHOULD have been deleted, but not like this), that was what led me to look at your own contributions more closely. And I saw apparently obvious copyvio being claimed as "own work" when a reverse image search showed the original images were pretty old and had been floating around for a while. But I also saw some very good first-class quality images that I instantly thought were stolen/copyvio (based on the obvious copyvio) - and what I really don't get is, if you are this guy, why cast such doubt on your own credibility? Mabalu (talk) 13:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC) Blocked Indefinitely This user has been blocked indefinitely. .

[110]

This blocked user has asked to be unblocked. Request reason: "I am David Condrey! If there were any question about my identity, it should have been rather obvious if they had even bothered to look at my account which is registered to me... davidcondrey@me.com Highly unlikely I'd have an ICloud email account (which requires a paid subscription) and go to all this trouble to impersonate myself! I believe my account has been blocked in retaliation for requesting the deletion of a bunch of pictures of people's dicks. I request that my account be unblocked immediately, and the images that I uploaded which I did in fact mark the appropriate license (Because they are my images!) be restored, and that the person who blocked me be themselves blocked for using their user-rights inappropriately per Wikipedia policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Conflicts_and_involvement. And the accounts which deleted my images should be examined as potential sock puppets. Further proof of identity: http://www.anythingimpossible.com/img/me.jpg , http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3979905/ , http://pixabay.com/en/users/dreamcc , https://www.thebouqs.com/en/content/92-team , https://www.facebook.com/dcondrey , https://twitter.com/davidcondrey David Condrey (talk) 19:56, 6 September 2014 (UTC)"

[111]

I request that my account be unblocked, my contributions be undeleted and the administrator who blocked me as well as the users who deleted my contributions be reviewed as potential sock puppets and administrators abusing their user-rights. David Condrey (talk) 20:06, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Not sure anyone here can be too mcuh help on this unless we ahve some cross Wiki admins floating about. I have noted youve already logged an unblock request on commons so not sure what else can be done for now. Amortias (T)(C) 20:15, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) While I understand that being blocked can be upsetting, administrators on Wikipedia are unable to assist you. We don't have the technical ability to remove blocks there, nor would our comments be held in a higher regard. Your unblock request has not yet been reviewed, but I'm sure it will be soon. Please remember that all administrators are volunteers and that such requests are not processed instantaneously. I would encourage you to continue this discussion on your user talk page at commons. Mike V • Talk 20:17, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I tried to add a post to the Admin noticeboard on Commons but with my account blocked, I'm unable to post anywhere other than my talk page, so I figured perhaps I should post here. Perhaps could you move this post over to [112] for me since I'm unable to do it myself? I've also emailed oversight-en-wp@wikimedia.org. David Condrey (talk) 20:21, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

When you place an unblock request, it gets organized into a category that alerts other administrators of your message. It appears the board you linked is only for requesting the block of a user or the protection of a page, not for unblock requests. The oversight email list should only be used to privately request the removal of libelous posts or sensitive personal information. Unless you contacted them for something meeting this criteria, they will not be able to assist you. Mike V • Talk 20:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

UTC)

what can I do? What is the appropriate response when my unblock request is being reviewed by the same administrator I am disputing. (Sent talk page on commons to see how it has progressed thus far) David Condrey (talk) 21:56, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

To clarify, your unblock request has not been reviewed yet. The blocking administrator only placed a comment on your talk page. While I won't comment on the merits of the block, there are three aspects you will need to respond to. One, the blocking administrator is uncertain that you are who you say you are. It appears that you've begun to address this point by sending a confirmation through the OTRS team. Second, the blocking admin claims that you were uploading copyrighted material to Wikimedia Commons. Finally, the blocking administrator claims that you were engaging in vandalism through your deletion request. You will need to calmly and succinctly respond to these points. If you are certain one or more of these aspects are incorrect, politely explain why. If some of these points are correct, discuss how you will work to make amends. While geared towards the English Wikipedia, we have a helpful guide to appealing blocks that may be of use to you. Don't be afraid to take some time to compose a proper response. While I can only speak from experience here, well thought-out unblock requests are much more likely to succeed. Mike V • Talk 23:42, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I have added a thorough response in which I address every one of the points you mentioned. Please have a look Talk page. David Condrey (talk) 07:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Personal Attacks

I apologize for continuing to post here but I'm not able to post anywhere else. I just wanted to add, that I'd like to point out the fact that I've been personally attacked, called names, belittled, ridiculed by two administrators on Wikipedia commons

I guessed something like this had occurred, indeed. Now what we need is to have added some explanation to the orginal DR, undeleted the few still missing images, nuked from orbit this puny dispeakable clown (to match his own verborrhea). User:Tuvalkin

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:INeverCry#Commons:Deletion requests/penis (the bold statement being linked directly to my user page)

Incidentally, please look at the nominator's uploads - a very random, very suspicious assortment of stock photos and obvious copyright violations. I find it interesting that someone who nominates 600+ pictures of penis en masse, using words like "disgusting," has also uploaded a photo of a half-naked man with no sense of irony. Mabalu (talk) 12:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:INeverCry#Commons:Deletion requests/penis (I guess policy on good faith, and letting me prove that it's not does not apply as Mabalu states that I am obviously making violations and suggestions I'm being a bigot..)

✓ Done I think all images have been restored, and I've added an explanation to the DR page. I've blocked David Condrey for copyvio/vandalism, and for possible impersonation of David Condrey. It seems strange that a professional photog would upload copyvios and create revenge DRs... INeverCry 18:46, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:INeverCry#Commons:Deletion (defamatory)

If you're David Condrey, you've not represented yourself very well here. Your DR was a targeted act of revenge/vandalism. The DR alone is worthy of a block. I see no apology from you for that childish act. Are you really a grown man or what? INeverCry 21:48, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

commons:User talk:David Condrey#Continue unblock request and request block of several users based on their conduct violations (notably those related to attacking other users) as described within (personal attacks and ridicule)

David Condrey (talk) 08:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

This is pretty standard procedure on Commons. There isn't anything admins on en:wp can do about it. 172.56.18.245 (talk) 08:06, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Drmies

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Drmies (talk · contribs) is engaging in edit warring, NPOV issues and ownership behavior. He recently created an article on Jewish businessman Maup Caransa,[113] which had recently expanded to include a number of odd statements. These statements appeared to me to consist of unintentional, antisemitic tropes that appeared to be misrepresenting the sources, claiming this Jewish businessman had made a "killing" selling parts from a wrecked car (not in the source); that his parents and three brothers were simply "taken away" to "German camps", failing to note that the actual source said that his family died there; that he survived WWII because of his "non-Jewish appearance"; and that when he was kidnapped and held for ransom, he "continued to ply his trade, which was wheeling and dealing".[114] In combination, these are all known stereotypes of Jews, and combined with the playing down of the Holocaust and the death of Caransa's family, I began to take action.

I attempted to fix these problems,[115] and left a message on the talk page.[116] Instead of responding to the talk page discussion, Drmies partially reverted my edits, saying "no, this is what the sources say" in the edit summary.[117] I can handle that view, and not wanting to engage in any edit war, I visited his talk page and politely directed the user to the article talk page, as by now, there was still no response to my outstanding request.[118] Since I had already addressed this problem on the talk page, I made my way back to the article to look for additional problems. Because Drmies was very interested in sticking to "what the sources say", I noticed other problems right away.

For example, Drmies had added, "During World War II his parents and three brothers were taken away to the German camps." But the actual source says " After the war - his parents and three brothers died in concentration camps." There is a big difference between "taken away" and "died", so I added "During World War II his parents and three brothers were taken away to the concentration camps where they died."[119] This was again reverted by Drmies, with no mention of the revert in the edit summary.[120] After reverting, Drmies finally arrived on the talk page, not to discuss the problems, but to make baseless threats.[121] Further, he visited my talk page and accused me of "original research" simply for linking to Nazi concentration camps.[122] It was explained to Drmies that the previous term German concentration camp is a redirect to List of Nazi concentration camps, and as such, there is no original research.[123] I have no idea why Drmies is trying to play down the fact that these were Nazi concentration camps and that Caransa's family died there (both facts that he has deleted), but combined with the above edits about antisemitic stereotypes, I am concerned.

Please note, I have made every attempt to use the talk page, to politely contact the user, and to avoid all semblance of edit warring, and I have refrained from making a single revert. Viriditas (talk) 03:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

You opened a talk page discussion a little over an hour ago and you're already here? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:01, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree I don't know how this escalated so quickly. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:09, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I have exhausted every avenue available to me, which is why I filed this report. Instead of addressing the concerns I raised on the talk page, Drmies has made a series of threats and false accusations. This is in addition to his edit warring and addition of unsourced, problematic material. I have already been reverted twice, and I'm unable to edit. And as for the talk page, my attempt to discuss has been blocked. That's why I'm here. Viriditas (talk) 04:33, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Uh, no. (Re)read WP:DR. Lots of avenues still open. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 07:04, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I chose to pursue this one. Viriditas (talk) 07:44, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

ANI is not for DR the panda ₯’ 15:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• The user didn't do anything even remotely politely--I reverted one of his changes because, well, they were wrong and I figured they didn't know since, well, I speak Dutch and they don't. Next thing you know I'm being accused of being an antisemite on the article talk page, of being an alcoholic on my own talk page (or gay--whatever "bender" means for this user), and I get an edit warring template slapped on my talk page. So yeah, I'm a bit pissed at this character, yes, who could have posted a nice note with a question on my talk page, rather than the passive-aggressive third-person insults in their edit summaries. You reckon I'm going to get an apology for the drunk, gay, antisemite comments? From someone who has templates at the ready after one single revert? Imagine if this person runs into a new editor--great advertising for the project. Drmies (talk) 04:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I edited the article and made a comment on the talk page, complete with diffs, with no accusations against anyone. In response, you reverted me twice, and made threats and false accusations on the talk page. Got it? Viriditas (talk) 04:33, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Ahem **bordering on unintentional antisemitic stereotypes and language"** **edit warring warning after one revert** **"We aren't transcription monkeys, as I'm sure you've heard"** **"you are on a bender"**. Cough. What threats? Drmies (talk) 04:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Scorecard:

Drmies -10 points for templating a regular

Viriditas -100 points for accusations of being "on a bender"

Drmies -2 points for "banning" someone from your talk page -- that's so lame.

Ent -1,000,000 points for falling off the wagon and reading ANI again ...

Perhaps --

Someone could wrap a close tag around this obvious content dispute admin action not required

A neutral, Dutch speaking editor -- perhaps from the list at Category:User_nl -- could be politely asked to review the sources?? NE Ent 04:21, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

See talk page, Ent. Note they templated me first, so they should get those ten points too. Plus "Your disruptive edits" is a non-neutral heading. Also, don't be so hard on yourself; you're doing fine, and an occasional relapse is no biggie. Finally, does anyone get points for spending a few hours writing an article on someone who is eminently notable--someone who was certifiably tragic, heroic, and comic? Or does WP only do negative scorecards? Caransa played bridge, every week, in the Continental Club until 1 AM. I think he was a better sport than some of us. Drmies (talk) 04:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring is disruptive, and the heading was accurate, as is this report. Viriditas (talk) 04:33, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I see this report going nowhere. Are you still calling me a drunk antisemite? or just an unintentional one? BTW, I retract my "get off my talk page", after Ent's wise words; please come by any time you like. Drmies (talk) 04:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I have interacted many times with Drmies over the years, and we have collaborated on a few articles. I happen to be a Jew, for whatever that is worth. Occasionally, we have disagreed, though far less often than we have agreed. I have found him to be responsive to any concern I raise, willing to correct errors (we all make them) and kind and thoughtful in every way. I see zero evidence of any malice on Drmies' part here. Zero. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:12, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe Drmies could, I dunno, actually address the concerns about his editing choices instead of going on the offensive with the variant of the old "ARE YOU CALLING ME A LIAR!?!" deflection. So, want to actually act like an editor discussing edits instead of exercising your fainting couch? --Calton | Talk 05:17, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Just to note, that both http://www.parool.nl/parool/nl/4/AMSTERDAM/article/detail/257579/2009/08/08/Ten-Slotte-Maup-Caransa-1916---2009.dhtml and http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/20489814/__Caransa_dwong_geluk_af__.html indeed literally says that he supposedly survived the second world war due to his non-Jewish appearance. ".., making a profit" is a huge understatement when you buy a car wreck for 1.5 gulden, and sell it piece-by-piece for 'een paar tientjes' (a couple of 10 gulden notes; which suggests at least 20 gulden): at least 13 times as much as what he bought the car wreck for. That is, indeed, a significant profit (I think the simple mathematics involved here far surpass the original research involved). Going on, our article already says that they were taken away and did not return, I think that the 'where they died' that Viriditas inserted is superfluous, it is mentioned clearly later. So maybe Viriditas here could, when they have concerns about writings referenced to other-language sources that they do not seem to be able to read themselves and at best use a translation for stick to talkpage discussion instead of implementing such changes themselves (or at the very least, not react like this when they get reverted by an editor who can read the original text without using a translation service? --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 06:01, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Dirk Beetstra, I must take serious issue with your defense of Drmies here. The NRC Handelsblad source cited in the article says, "Na de oorlog – zijn ouders en drie broers stierven in concentratiekampen" ("After the war - his parents and three brothers died in concentration camps").[124] Clearly, that is not superfluous. "Making a profit" is not an understatement at all, and the original wording added to the article was "killing", which isn't supported. In fact that source says he made a profit and uses the word "winst"[125] which means "profit"[126] so my edit was correct. Furthermore, the parool.nl source says nothing about a "non-Jewish appearance". It says "Dat hij overleefde, dankte hij, zei hij later, aan zijn gemengde huwelijk en zijn uiterlijk: blond, bijna rood, lichtblauwe ogen."[127]. According to that source, he said he survived due to his marriage to a Catholic woman and his blond hair and blue eyes. However, the source used to support this controversial wording De Telegraaf is clearly inappropriate and unreliable in a biography article.[128] According to our own article on this source, it "contains many "sensational" and sports-related articles, and one or more pages the content of which is supplied by the gossip-magazine Privé ("Private").... During World War II, the Telegraaf companies published pro-German papers, which led to a thirty-year ban on publishing after the war". I would say the use of this source to support the wording of a "non-Jewish appearance" is inappropriate. What do Jews look like? Do they have horns protruding out of their head? I stand by my comments on this matter. To recap, 1) his family died in the Nazi concentration camps. This should not have been removed and was fully supported. For Drmies to call this "original research" is unusual. 2) The word "profit" was entirely correct per the sources, and 3) the only source cited for his "non-Jewish appearance" was the unreliable sensationalist/gossip newspaper De Telegraaf. Lastly, at no time did Drmies attempt to discuss this before engaging in multiple reverts and making baseless threats and accusations. I was on the talk page trying to discuss this matter with no response from Drmies at any time, just reverts and threats. Viriditas (talk) 07:42, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Drmies created Maup Caransa (1916–2009) seven hours before this report was created! If (that's if) Drmies used such problematic language in the article that a report to ANI is warranted, Viriditas should first spend some quality time explaining the issue (not in edit summaries, and not with sections titled "Your disruptive behavior", and not here). Drmies is well known as a good content creator and I have seen no previous suggestion of problematic language, so this report is amazingly premature and should be closed. Johnuniq (talk) 08:08, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I tried explaining on the talk page, and invited Drmies to discuss. In return, my edits were reverted twice without discussion and I was threatened and accused of adding original research. At no time did I ever use edit summaries to explain the problem, and I proceeded directly to the talk page after I made my first edit to the page and before the reverts ever occurred. The section title of "Your disruptive behavior" was added to the user's talk page after two separate edits were reverted twice by Drmies without discussion, and after the user refused to discuss the problem after he was invited to do so. Edit warring is disruptive behavior, and my section title was accurate. At no time did I revert Drmies, nor have I added back any content that was removed. Viriditas (talk) 08:27, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Just minutes after I filed this report, Drmies added additional controversial material, this time claiming that the actions of the Dutch Jews were directly to blame for the German invasion of their town. Drmies appears to be insisting on a false equivalency between the actions of the Dutch pro-Nazi movement and the Jews who fought back in self-defense, but places the blame squarely on the Jews for the subsequent actions of the German soldiers, writing "The killing of WA-man Koot by a Jewish knokploeg was the direct impetus for the raids organized by the Germans".[129] I've assumed good faith that he isn't doing this on purpose, and this is mostly due to his poor translation, but even the source he cites doesn't say this. Drmies cites an opinion column (he shouldn't be doing that in a biography) that attributes that claim to the Nazis, which Drmies conveniently forgets to cite. ("De Duitse bezetter gebruikte dit incident als aanleiding om een razzia te houden en meer dan 400 Joodse jongemannen op te pakken.") I believe that NPOV means "Neutral Point of View", not "Nazi Point of View". Viriditas (talk) 09:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

You are blatantly accusing Drmies of being an anti-Semite. This is a very serious personal attack on your part, and an egregious failure to AGF. Doc talk 09:57, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

No, actually I quite blatantly said it was "unintentional" (exact word) and I wrote just above your comment, "I've assumed good faith that he isn't doing this on purpose, and this is mostly due to his poor translation". Is that clear enough for you to retract? Viriditas (talk) 10:07, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Retract what? You said just above he "conveniently forgets to cite" stuff; and that it should not be a "Nazi Point of View". Because... of someone else? Heh. No, I will not retract the observation that you are accusing him of what you plainly are. Doc talk 10:14, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

You're reading far too much into my comments, more than is actually there. If you bothered to read my report you would find that I have not accused anyone of being an antisemite or a Nazi. Furthermore, if you bothered to read the article on Maup Caransa, you would find that much of it is written in broken English as the result of a poor translation, hence the current problems up above. "Nazi Point of View" refers directly, in this instance, to the claim in the opinion column, which illustrates the Nazi POV. That's called attribution, and it did not find its way into the article when Drmies added it. Pretty simple, really. In other words, the claim, ""The killing of WA-man Koot by a Jewish knokploeg was the direct impetus for the raids organized by the Germans" was the claim made by the Nazis, per the source.[130] Viriditas (talk) 10:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Viriditas, I think you have strayed into the ridiculous (although thanks for the "broken English" comment!). "Impetus" does not mean "a valid excuse". You are the one who is reading that into the word, and now you are accusing me of a Nazi point of view? The absurd claim that this is based on a column is just that, absurd, and shows that you don't know your ass from your elbow. Yes, De Telegraaf was "wrong" during the war [GASP! another euphemism! NAZI POV! "wrong"! well, that's the word the Dutch use], which doesn't mean that they're automatically wrong sixty years later, and at any rate every reader of history knows that the death of Koot was the excuse the Germans were looking for, and led directly to the February strike. Here and everywhere else. But I'm saying this not for your benefit, but for the onlookers.

Last night I thought maybe you were misunderstanding things, and that you were going to stop digging in this silly hole of yours. Now that you have accused me of having a Nazi POV, I really have no words for you, and I don't know what to say to everyone else either. This is more character assassination than I know what to do with. Let someone who masters English better than me rewrite this article, and give Viriditas a barnstar for heroically fighting Nazi scum. Drmies (talk) 12:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Nope. "These statements appeared to me to consist of unintentional, antisemitic tropes that appeared to be misrepresenting the sources..." That's how you start this thread. I don't care about your content dispute! If you weren't really accusing him of anti-semitism, you might not want to lead off with that... and then lamely try to explain it away as not actually accusing him of it. At the top you say, "I have no idea why Drmies is trying to play down the fact that these were Nazi concentration camps and that Caransa's family died there (both facts that he has deleted), but combined with the above edits about antisemitic stereotypes, I am concerned." Why are you "concerned"? Because of "Nazi POV? Doc talk 10:34, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

If you visit the talk page, you'll discover that I first described the problem as "highly problematic wording, bordering on unintentional antisemitic stereotypes and language.[131] I believe this is due to a poor translation of the source material. Nobody has been accused of being an antisemite or a Nazi. I think there is a huge difference between identifying content that has problems and a problematic editor. I brought Drmies to this board because he refused to let me edit the material and he refused to respond to any discussion about it, and then he began making threats and accusations. I did not bring him here because he's an antisemite or because he's a Nazi. Unfortunately, it's quite late here (12:35 am) and past my bedtime, so I won't have any free time to address new comments. Viriditas (talk) 10:36, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• I propose a boomerang here. --John (talk) 10:18, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Propose away. I stand by every word I've written here. Viriditas (talk) 10:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

On the one unfortunate occassion that I've found myself on the other side of a conflict dispute with Viriditis, I found myself on the receiving end of a barrage of personal pointlessly insulting commentary such as:

"Keep fucking that chicken and keep drinking what's left of that Kool-Aid, because pretty soon the cat's gonna be out of the bag, and you'll be the last one standing."

Followed by additional comments such as

'Now you are clearly trolling" and "Your so-called "evidence" is pure bunk. Give it up"

Along with a fair bit of similar commentary. It's very difficult for me to believe his claims of being the innocent victim of a completely unprovided personal attack in this situation. His track record says otherwise. Formerly 98 (talk) 10:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Call me crazy, but I really fail to see what your comment has to do with this discussion. I have not claimed to be a victim of any personal attacks in this thread. Are you sure you're in the right thread, or even on the right noticeboard? The link you offer indicates a dispute from March about cannabis. I'm having trouble seeing how that fits in here. Is that what is known as thread hijacking? Viriditas (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that it looks like a pattern of the first response to any content conflict being to question the motives, intelligence, or good intent of the person on the other side of the issue.

"Just a note to say that I've removed highly problematic wording, bordering on unintentional antisemitic stereotypes and language" may be what you consider "very diplomatic", but what I would call highly diplomatic would have been something more along the lines of "Drmies, I am concerned that the specific language that you used here ("quote")could be interpreted by some as inappropriately supporting stereotypes. I propose changing it as follows, or "For this reason I have changed it as follows". Initiating a discussion by calling another editors language "highly problematic" and informing them that you have changed it for this reason is not "very diplomatic" in most people's minds. And Mark Millers rant went completely off the charts. I'm not sure why he is not the topic of this discussion. Formerly 98 (talk) 10:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, you mean discuss the issue? But ANI is more satisfying. Johnuniq (talk) 11:06, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Well indeed. --John (talk) 11:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Scuse me Viriditas, but you might have taken this slighty wrong. I know Drmies, we wrote articles about for example Jewish artists when he clearly expressed that he condamned and hated what happened in the concentration camps. This the playing down of the Holocaust ... well, must have been some kind of communication problem. Please seek WP:Conflict resolution instead, you don't want to put this on ANI, he was nice to you several times and deffended you, remember. Do not make this into a conflict, I am sure it can be resolved. Hafspajen (talk) 17:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Above, Formerly 98 says "(On the one) unfortunate occassion that I've found myself on the other side of a conflict dispute with Viriditis, I found myself on the receiving end of a barrage of personal pointlessly insulting commentary". Yup. This is exactly my experience as well. In additional to the personal pointlessly insulting commentary, it's usually mixed in with lots of subtle insinuations, weaselly insults and attacks (worded "just so" that if anyone points out that insults and attacks are being made, Viriditas can come back with some kind of "oh you're just being sensitive" excuse) and... just comments and assessments completely detached from reality, but made with a straight face as if repeating something over and over again made it true. That kind of behavior is plenty on display here it looks like. Not a pleasant person to have to run into. A boomerang is long overdue. Volunteer Marek  05:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

For some insight as to why "Volunteer Marek" feels this way, see the Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list case from 2009, particularly Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list/Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_Viriditas. That's a long time to hold a grudge! Viriditas (talk) 05:20, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• If someone called me an anti-Semite, I'd be pissed too. Technically Viridatias didn't call Dmries anti-Semitic. The question is does anyone think it was intentionally phrased not to call Dmries an anti-Semite, but rather to imply and provoke?Two kinds of pork (talk) 05:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposed sanction

• Propose warning to User:Viriditas for personal attacks and failure to follow prescribed avenues of DR, with a block to follow if repeated. --John (talk) 11:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose we have this quote on the article Talk page:
    • "I don't know what the fuck you are screaming at and I don't give a fucking shit. Don't patronize me either. Thanks. If you don't understand what my issue was...fine. But don't you dare try to make me the issue when you are the one that added the content. I actually DID give you credit and you actually did make a change to the content. So...what the fuck is the issue?--Mark Miller (talk) 04:26, 7 September 2014 (UTC)"

How you are going to single out Drmie's behavior from the other incivil and escalating behavior in this interchange is beyond my imagination. Formerly 98 (talk) 12:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Meh; Viriditas is clearly upset by what is in the article, and we should try to understand that. The PAs and failure to follow DR are problematic, but "sanctioning" with a warning (is that even a sanction?) isn't really necessary. The failure of an ANI thread to attract useful attention is usually warning enough. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 13:06, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
• i don't wish to see the editor sanctioned but I wish to see the hideous charges of antisemitism and inserting Nazi POV retracted. Drmies (talk) 15:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Drmies, it's clear from the talk page that for whatever reason you quickly became very agitated and uncivil there. It's also clear that Viriditas was careful not to suggest that you personally endorsed any such POV. Where do you see such charges, the ones you wish retracted? SPECIFICO talk 15:39, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

This is the exact quote, emphasis mine Just a note to say that I've removed highly problematic wording, bordering on unintentional antisemitic stereotypes and language. And a grammar ... expert like Drmies should -- and I believe would normally -- recognize that "wording," not "Drmies" is the subject of that sentence, and that, at the very beginning Viriditas was explicitly stating they did not believe there was any intent to be offensive. (To be explicitly clear here -- I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing that the original wording was offensive, only that I can easily see how it might strike editors of differing backgrounds that way.) NE Ent 17:03, 7 September 2014 (UTC) Additionally, of course we inserted Nazi POV into the article -- because the sources tell us it was historical fact Caransa survived because of how the Nazis perceived him, and I interpret Viriditas's comment -- as expanded up by Mark Miller -- as a concern that hewing too closely to the sources made it appear as if Wikipedia endorsed that viewpoint, not that they ever believed Drmies personally felt that way. And when Viriditas made the comment on Drmies user talk about a Bender, well, that was just acting like an ass. NE Ent 17:14, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The community has an overriding right to expect better behavior, civil, constructive, and collegial, from its Admins. Notwithstanding any miscommunication, good intentions, or anything else, Drmies failed in that respect. SPECIFICO talk 17:36, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Is it kick an admin day already? Drmies created an article, and 90 minutes later Viriditas removed "highly problematic wording" and wrote the above on the article talk—that's what we do when confronting a known anti-Semitic POV pusher. If people are going to edit in a collaborative environment they need to recognize when they are dealing with a known-good content creator and actually engage with them. Viriditas has stated as fact that Drmies is either anti-Semitic or stupid when what was needed was a frank exchange of views based on an assumption of good faith—something like "Hey Drmies, are you aware that what you wrote can be interpreted ... I think that has to go". Johnuniq (talk) 01:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I've not seen Viriditas state that anywhere, please provide a diff to support that contention ... or better yet, strike it. NE Ent 02:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I don't believe Drmies is an antisemite or stupid. However, Wikipedia is an international project, and editors from different parts of the world with unique cultures may not spot certain tropes. As an American who is sensitive to American issues, I might see something like "so and so loves fried chicken and watermelon" in an article about an African American, and I'll remove it as vandalism. But would someone from another country recognize that as problematic material? Even if it was sourced? In the same way, I can detect Jewish stereotypes on biography articles. Viriditas (talk) 03:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

@NE Ent: All the information is in my comment, but to expand, "highly problematic wording" is an assertion of fact, and I'll leave it to you to interpret "bordering on unintentional antisemitic stereotypes and language". There is no way to parse that statement without concluding that it asserts Drmies is stupid—what other good faith conclusion can be drawn? That Drmies might not read books and so is unaware of WWII history and its aftermath? My comment above explains what should have occurred. Johnuniq (talk) 04:24, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)::I don't think Drmies failed in that respect. Viriditas got angry and called Drmies a bender (that would mean gay or alcoholic) - and Drmies got angry - because he did helped Viriditas quite a lot before. These dicussions about sensitive topics provoke often feelings that run higher than usual, - like minorities, women rights, and so on provoke often feelings that might run much higher than usual, and people misunderstand each other twice as fast as usual. And then somebody - tried to - well - do something, and posted a template on his page that he edited Easter European country related articles - and those are under Arb. Com. sanctions, probably as a warning so he should stop, but Amsterdam (the place this article is related to) is in Western Europe, so that not made him very happy either. Mark Miller tried to help - but then it was to late because Drmies was quite upset, so he made a sharp comment to him, - and - Well - Mark is a warrior. In soul and hart. But he and Dr Mies are friends in fact... so, here you have the whole mess. Hafspajen (talk) 18:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

You're right that we have a right to expect better behavior, civil, consturctive, and collegial

• Thus Viriditas should not have initiated the conversation with a confrontational post, referring to the language of the article as "highly problematic" and waving the "stereotyping" red flag.
• And Dmries should not have engaged in unexplained reverts.
• And of course Mark's comments were as over the top as anything one sees in a typical month on Wikipedia.

What is not clear is why the narrow focus on Dmries behavior, and zero on the behavior of the other participants in this escalation. Formerly 98 (talk) 18:17, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

When I saw this thread, I figured it would be depressing, and it is. I've interacted with Drmies plenty of times, and I am very sure that they are responsible and reasonable about editing disputes. Open up a content dispute where antisemitism and Nazis are involved, and people are going to get upset easily. Edits in that area require extra effort to make sure that one is not being misunderstood. Instead of seeking understanding, this conflict escalated much too quickly. Someone said way above that this didn't need to come to ANI, and they were right. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:13, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, where antisemitism and Nazis are involved people are going to get upset easily. That is the whole point, the whole tragic point, because they made those poor people suffer incredibly - and - sigh, it is still there. Will this never stop? Hafspajen (talk) 18:43, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• The latest news is that Viriditas has decided that the article needs to be renamed, and has moved it to Maurits Caransa without talk page discussion or a by-your-leave--much to the surprise of Maup himself, no doubt. This is sour grapes, pure disruption, and without justification given the sources (which are roughly 50-50, though leaning toward Maup, which is also the title of the Dutch wiki article). Drmies (talk) 03:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Is there a reason you are being confrontational every time I edit the article? English sources refer to him by his formal name, not his nickname. Could you please look at the English language literature? Or are you saying we should base our article titles on the usage preferred by Dutch sensationalist gossip rags? Local media often chooses "pet" names for their local boys. We wouldn't, for example, move Barack Obama's page to "Bam", simply because the New York Post chooses to use that pet name. The Associated Press and other English sources refer to him by his formal name, as should we. I made a simple move. There's nothing controversial or disputed about it. Per WP:CRITERIA, "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject". Viriditas (talk) 03:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• And for the record, Drmies has just reverted for the third time, just over the 24 hour mark.[132] I have not made a single revert, yet I have been accused of edit warring on the article talk page. Viriditas (talk) 03:50, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Guilty as charged. I'm not accusing you of edit warring, by the way; I'm accusing you of pointy behavior, of grinding an axe. Go write an article yourself: this one seems to take up all your time and energy.

    In this case I'm accusing you of misreading the Dutch source (it was a series of raids--please don't minimize what the Nazis did) and of producing an English sentence that can't be parsed: does your "them" refer the members of the Jewish Action Group or to the Germans? So, sure, yeah, I reverted you. Cause you wuz wrong. Sorry, but I think there are more important issues than you getting your feelings hurt after you butcher a source--things like correctness, and respect for this man, and respect for the Amsterdam Jews, who weren't subjected to "a" raid but to a series of raids ("razzia's") that went on for days and then were ghettoized and subjected to a Judenrat. Those things are important. Drmies (talk) 04:27, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

  • You are doing everything possible to be obnoxious (moving the article because you know best, and escalating at ANI with talk of 3RR). Why don't you give it a rest and return in a week? Is it really so important to win a war over what is essentially a good article? Johnuniq (talk) 04:33, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Again, I haven't made a single revert (Drmies has now made four in the last 24+ hours, three against me and one against an IP) and I haven't been obnoxious anywhere. I moved the article to the correct page title per our best practices, and I did so to improve Wikipedia. I would appreciate it if you stick to the facts and avoid making comments about my intent. Admins are not exempt from the rules. Viriditas (talk) 05:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
      • And now we're at WP:ANEW as well. I note that Viriditas has spent all but two of their last 82 edits on this crusade, so I regret to say that we're really in HOUNDING territory. In the meantime I wrote up Oud-Strijders Legioen and Hendrik Koot (which I suggest Viriditas check for Nazi POV), wrote up a few DYK noms, reviewed a couple of them...in other words, I'm doing my best to not concentrate on this spat too much, but with three active threads and a bunch of talk page stuff that's hard. The latest: "thou shalt not use non-English sources", with the utterly false and preposterous claim that "There are more than enough English language sources that cover his life in detail". There aren't. Now, I'm pretty much done with Maup (that's his name, not "Maurits") and will happily try to forget all about this and the other forum threads. I wouldn't mind an IBAN though, if it meant Viriditas would leave me alone; I'm not very likely to bother him with his articles, though the last time I did it was to help him out with a harassing sock puppet. Drmies (talk) 05:41, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
        • We're at ANEW beacuse you are still reverting me (and an IP) and you've made 4 reverts in the last 24 hours+. I really don't think an IBAN is appropriate here, as it seems like an attempt to game the system and avoid addressing the problematic edits I've described on the talk page. I feel that is highly disingenuous at best and an attempt to gain the upper hand in a dispute. Viriditas (talk) 06:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
• I've closed the ANEW report as No action. Probably best to discuss this matter at one location at a time, and no 3RR is involved or alleged. --John (talk) 06:21, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Viriditas, can I put this clearly enough? STOP this, stop this here and now. Take some deep breath, just take walk, go shopping, fishing, boxing, go to the church, synagogue, take a long walk on the beach - pick some flowers, sing a song - anything but this. It is hurting YOU, my friend. Stop it NOW. Please. We all understand that you are hurt - but don't don't hurt back, please. שלום־עליכם Hafspajen (talk) 06:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• • • • • • (ec) As I stated on the 3RR noticeboard: Viriditas, Drmies instated an edit, you Boldly changed it (and started a Discussion), and got Reverted. Why are interested editors not at the Discussion on the talkpage (like with every BRD), but keep Reverting (against BRD), and going around on several noticeboards (it is also at WP:RS/N I understood, and I commented earlier at WP:3RR regarding this). Can some admin please close this thread, close the other threads on the other noticeboards with the strong suggestion to first try to come to a consensus on the talkpage (and not push reinstating the change or go to other dramahboards until that discussion has come to an end - failure to do so should likely need to result in some editors being sanctioned here). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 06:53, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, please. Hafspajen (talk) 06:57, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ruze's Formula Applied to Phased Array Antennas

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The article which appears on Wikipedia attributes this result to a gentleman named D'Addario who published a paaper in 2008. I suggest that the author examine Sorace circa 2000, a paper that I wrote. However, at the time that I wrote this, I was fully that it may have been published even earlier in a source unknown to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.251.23.57 (talk) 03:58, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

This page is generally for reporting disruptive editors and things like that, so I'm afraid you might not get the help you want. But I've put in a note on the WikiProject Physics discussion page, where people who are more familiar with this subject can consider your suggestion. I can't seem to find the source you're referring to, so perhaps you could comment on that discussion with some more information. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 04:15, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IPUser 128.189.191.60

IPUser 128.189.191.60 (talk) posted persoanl attacks and insulting comments in a discussion[133], and he continued his personal attacks in his comments despite being asked to revert his offensive comments.[134] STSC (talk) 05:21, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The IP says they are withdrawing, but I don't understand the attempt to use reasoning to argue for city anthems, we depend upon reliable sources directly stating that the "national anthem of " HongKong, Beijing, etc "is...". Hm, that might put me on the side of the IP. Dougweller (talk) 14:47, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I have used the RPT template to remove the personal attacks from the IP. Regarding the "national anthem", you might have misunderstood the issue. STSC (talk) 00:29, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

IP hopper spamming livingselfsufficient YouTube channel

So far I've found 98.172.137.172 (talk · contribs), 190.198.148.91 (talk · contribs), User:91.238.146.30, 190.201.131.15 (talk · contribs) and User:190.204.106.127. Whoever it is quickly changes IP addresses. They are spamming [135]. Dougweller (talk) 13:05, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Harassment claim by conflict of interest editor

I reported User:Ruthjhendry at WP:COIN for her repeated attempts to add her name to the article Senior Wrangler (University of Cambridge) without appropriate references or verification. In her reply, she has made an accusation of harassment:

'I have not edited anything on Wikipedia before, and I cannot compete with the editor above who seems intent on removing my one achievement in life from Wikipedia, even though I have provided adequate proof that I have this achievement. I am feeling harassed by this person and very upset by it all and would appreciate your help in stopping them doing this any further, and allowing my edits to remain.'

I am elevating this here because of the seriousness of a harassment complaint, which should be investigated. Whilst I am here, I welcome editors to read the posts at WP:COIN. 86.158.181.1 (talk) 13:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, this should never have been raised at WP:COIN (or here for that matter). Ms Hendry saw a list on Wikipedia which she feels that she has a legitimate claim to be included on, and has offered what she considered to be a legitimate means to verify said claim. That such verification doesn't comply with WP:RS requirements doesn't make for a 'conflict of interest' at all - instead it is a simple misunderstanding of Wikipedia policy. A little more sympathy for people unfamiliar with Wikipedia's bureaucratic labyrinth of policies and guidelines would assist greatly in avoiding such problems in future. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:06, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Andy and I posted to the COIN page about it. 86.158.181.1 is being excessively confrontational. Dangerous Panda (at COIN) also should try to be more understanding if he decides to engage with an issue like this. 50.0.205.237 (talk) 16:26, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The reason it has been raised here is, despite having the policies explained by multiple users, Miss Hendry has not engaged in discussion and tried to force her edits through [136]. I have taken the time to provide details explanations for her. A conflict of interest is defined at WP:COI as 'an incompatibility between the aim of Wikipedia, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor'. Miss Hendry's only edits have been problematic edits to include her name on the article that have avoided discussion. I hope you can see why a conflict of interest request was appropriate, considering the lack of discussion elsewhere. 86.158.181.1 (talk) 16:34, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I just saw and commented on this issue at COIN discussion seen in this thread.I agree completely with AndyTheGrump's comment above. This is a legitimate request per our own article on Senior Wrangler. If there is a lack of understanding on how Wikipedia functions we should help and inform, kindly. (Littleolive oil (talk) 16:38, 7 September 2014 (UTC))

The article in question includes an incomplete list of Senior Wranglers. Wishing for the list to be as complete as possible does not constitute a conflict of interest with Wikipedia's objectives. And neither does failing to understand Wikipedia policy on sourcing constitute a conflict of interest. I can see no evidence whatsoever that IP 86.158.181.1 attempted to discuss the matter with Ms Hendry prior to escalating the matter at WP:COIN - and any complaint of a 'lack of discussion' works both ways. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Request for banning user Mdann52

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User Mdann52 is reverting page COMSATS Institute of Information Technology to its 'very' old version citing 'paraphrasing issues' as the reason. The truth is this that it's not true. The article has been written by myself using information from official and authentic websites. It's not copy-paste. This user seems to have some other issues involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Master07420 (talk • contribs) 17:02, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

On another note every single revision between his current revert and the one it was reverted to appear to have been rev-deleted, any admin able to advise why? Scratch that, theyve be redacted as copyvio's. Amortias (T)(C) 17:22, 7 September 2014 (UTC

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ravishyam Bangalore's disruptive editing continues

See also: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive846 § Disruptive edits by User:Ravishyam Bangalore, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive821 § Aadhar, and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive819 § User:Ravishyam Bangalore issuing legal threats and disruption

He returned to edit the article Aadhaar, yesterday.[137] He was reminded,[138] but he continues to add promotional content.[139] OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 17:25, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Avenger2015 resubmission

Original ANI report here. Despite a 72 hour block from admin Go Phightins! for failing to adhere to MOS:TV by submitting ponderous Cast lists that duplicated existing content in the article, user Avenger2015 continues to be disruptive.

In these two edits he adds another redundant cast list. In these two edits he continues adding to a duplicate cast list that he started. I think once a reasonable person learns that their duplicate cast list is objectionable, he would think to remove them, but he certainly would not add to them. And in the following four edits, he starts to add a cast list, then removes it, then adds it again, then removes it again. Taunting? ([140][141][142][143]).

Then, he makes 34 consecutive edits adding more cast to yet another duplicate section that he started in June. User has not yet gotten the message, and seems to be deliberately disruptive. Compounding matters, the user has never participated in a discussion, so admin help is needed here. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:17, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps a seven day block might grab their attention, unless, by coincidence, they take an eight day editing break. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:57, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Whatever it takes to dissuade the anti-community behavior. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:53, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Obamasstraight420 inserting obscenity into the sandbox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Obamasstraight420 has pasted an obscene image into the sandbox and also made a personal attack on Jimbo Wales. I have reverted the actions. What can be done about this? The diff contains obscene content. Here is the diff: diff 1999sportsfan (talk) 08:26, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The image was hardly obscene though. I do it that way all the time ! -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 08:52, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

HAHAHAH I KNEW someone was gonna say that ! KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 10:48, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Protected page without log entry

I'll try to keep this generalized, as it may be that I am not supposed to draw attention to the specific page...

There is a page with 84 deleted edits, without an entry in the logs, without an indication which user did the deletion, and so on. The page apparently is also fully protected, but again without any indication in the logs of who did this or why.

Can I undelete the page? Can I unprotect it? I can't contact the admin (bureaucrat, steward, ...) who did this, so how do I continue? It is a delicate BLP, so it's not as if think that something nefarious is going on (and I don't believe it is some software error either), but I think it should be at least a redirect to the event it is connected to. But am I allowed to create this?

How does one proceed in such a case? Fram (talk) 09:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

If it's something you can't discuss publicly, the usual approach is email arbcom. It does sound weird. I thought log entries were made automatically when a page is deleted. 50.0.205.237 (talk) 09:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

It looks like some oversight action, but I would think that they would at least put some notice on the talk page indicating who to contact about it. The only result they can achieve in this way is that individuals will contact them, and they will have to reply over and over again the same thing. Not useful. It is not some stupid attack page but a high profile WP:BLP1E, so it gets lots of attention at the moment. Fram (talk) 09:38, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, chances are an oversighter will see this thread, or you can email oversight-l or arbcom-l. If the article is protected and cleaned up of problematic BLP content though (or if it's a protected redlink, if that's what you're saying about undeletion), I'd tend to treat it as non-urgent. So people can't edit the article for a while or maybe there's temporarily no visible article about the person. We'll be fine. If you're worried about people being confused by seeing a redlink, you could put up a protected info template saying the article is temporarily unavailable pending resolution of BLP issues, or something like that. 50.0.205.237 (talk) 10:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That's what the oversighter should have done, as he or she knew what the reason for the oversight was. I can't claim that it is temporary unavailable for whatever reason, when it may be that it is permanently unavailable for legal reasons for all I know. And it is relatively urgent as the page really gets many views, which means many readers currently not being served at all (not even by a redirect). The title of the page currently yields over 11,000 Google News results, so it is not some obscure thing or someone only mentioned by name once or twice... Fram (talk) 10:46, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

If there's an article about the related incident, it's probably ok to make a protected redirect from the person's name to the incident article. With that many news results connecting the two, I don't see how the redirect can worsen things. The info template approach still seems ok with suitable wording, e.g. "this article is currently unavailable due to unresolved BLP issues, please try again later" leaves open that the status can change in any direction. I also wouldn't freak out about readers looking for an article and not getting one. They should get more used to that. 50.0.205.237 (talk) 11:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Copyright violations after final warning

InfoDataMonger appears to persist in violating our copyright policy after a final warning. Dade William Moeller was listed at Wikipedia:Suspected copyright violations/2014-08-26; after finding copyright infringement there I looked at other contributions by InfoDataMonger, and immediately found problems at Eleanor J. MacDonald. The user's talk page already has numerous warnings from Voceditenore; User talk:InfoDataMonger#Copyright problems identifies a number of problem articles, and is followed by a final warning on 28 June 2014. I request that this editor's editing privileges be suspended until this is fully clarified. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:16, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

CCI requested here. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:27, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

This is very disappointing. InfoDataMonger is contributing articles on valuable topics here, but his continued copyright violation must be stopped. I attempted to work with this editor back in June and explained in some detail how to avoid his hitherto extensive copyvio and plagiarism. I accepted his explanation that editing WP was a steep learning curve (true!) and assumed he would take my advice and warnings on board. At the time, I asked him to go back over his remaining articles and remove any copyvio (I had already repaired 9 of them). Not only does he appear not to have done so, he has gone on to create yet more problematic articles. I was away all of August and had stopped following his contributions. Unless he voluntarily agrees to stop creating new articles or adding substantially to existing ones, at least until the CCI is complete, an indefinite block may be the only answer. I know from personal experience how incredibly time-consuming it is to find copyvio and repair it. We cannot allow him to continue consuming the time of multiple editors like this, not to mention causing potential legal problems for WP. Voceditenore (talk) 11:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Request for blocking IPUser 213.224.50.154

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

After this IPUser received two "last warnings" at his/her userpage lately, today he/she made at least two more edits showing blatant vandalism, more specifically at Thibaut Courtois and Antwerp International School. Kareldorado (talk) 12:01, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Schoolblocked for a week. For future reference, AIV is the correct venue in which to report this sort of thing. Yunshui ^雲_水 12:04, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for informing me. Kareldorado (talk) 12:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Trust Is All You Need and South Yemen

User:Trust_Is_All_You_Need is involved in multiple content disputes over the country article infoboxes. The South Yemen dispute (in which I'm not involved), seems to have got particularly nasty, culminating in:

• 26 Aug Fuck you Zozs, I don't give fucking shit about what you think is true. (...) Well fuck you . You're probably one of the dummest people I've met on this site. Fuck you, fuck you fuck you.

And that, I think was that, until yesterday:

• This discussion does not make any fucking sense; its just four users who pretend they know something about something they clearly don't know anything about...
• And today wikipedia is not a democracy. Do whatever you want, but you stupid *****hole. Don't vote over nothing; just add the factual inaccurate statement in the article if you're stupid enough (you clearly are)
• [144] "I don't care, rape wikipedia. Go fuck it over. Add misinformation. Add information which doesn't fucking make sense. If you're stupid enough to think "Marxist-Leninist single-party socialist state" is a real term (after living in South Yemen), fine add the fucking terms. I don't give a fuck. [...] But go rape Wikipedia, I don't care if you're stupid enough to add those descriptions [...] Again, go and rape Wikipedia and add inaccurate statement. [...] Go and rape wikipedia."

He has unilaterally closed the relevant talk page thread, struck others comments in the process and added the summary "Do whatever you will fools; add the description you like. Idiots do what idiots do best." He then took to a user's talk page to add the above. Somehow I don't think the current closed diff will be allowed to stand and it will probably escalate.

Pretty straightforward: an admin should probably warn him about egregious personal attacks and striking others comments; and block him if this goes any further. I'm not sure that others have been behaving impeccably (some attempted canvassing) but can't see anyone else there has lost the plot this badly. bridies (talk) 15:58, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, he obviously needs to calm down and observe consensus. It looks like he's getting parting shots in before he retires. If this continues, he definitely does need to be blocked to prevent further disruption. It's frustrating when you see consensus form around what you believe to be factually incorrect, but that's not a reason to disrupt the project. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:49, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

In the 26 Aug diff above he said he was retiring, but then changed his mind [145] [146]. bridies (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Just remove/revert his disruption. If he continues, he can be blocked. This looks more like an isolated incident of blowing up, I doubt blocking here would prevent anything. Seems he's going to take his own break and hopefully he'll be refreshed when he comes back.--v/r - TP 19:22, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

block me. Who gives a shit. They add false information on Wikipedia, and I get blocked. Sounds reasonable. What about blocking me for a day, a week, a month, a year, maybe all eternity? Who gives a fucking rats ass; if the point with WP is that three editors are going to come together and make-up things (and then add on Wikipedia), I should be blocked for all eternity since it doesn't seem like I understood the encyclopaedia's agenda. Block me, who the fuck cares? Not them, of course, since they are adding false information (making up forms of government and so on). Go and fucking block me. I give up, I'm a good editor; but the discussion at Talk:South Yemen is literally making me crazy. If thats the point of WP , I certainly shouldn't participate . If you want to block me, 'block me'. The only winners are those who are misinformed! ... And yes, I'm a drama queen. --TIAYN (talk) 20:31, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

The continued suppression of <censored>

forum shopping. Nothing more to do here --Mdann52talk to me! 16:33, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Currently a topic is suppressed on Wikipedia. The suppression goes against all existing guidelines. A similar incident happened in the past, however it was deemed acceptable because there were no widely circulated reports of the incident. (see: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Messaging-and-Collaboration/Wales-Denies-Censoring-Wikipedia-Over-Journalist-Rohdes-Kidnapping-497337/1/ and also http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2009/jul/08/wikipedia-censorship-seth-finkelstein#start-of-comments and also http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105775059) In this case the deletion/suppression taking place is different, as the information has been widely circulated by highly reputable news sources world wide'. Suppressing an article from being created by locking out potential article names, removing the name from related content, suppressing Afd's and undelete requests, blocking users, and also removing references from articles because the name was used in the the title of the article goes against the all existing policies and guidelines in place about something that is world wide news and widely available and acknowledged world wide. The Oversight Committee has gone and created their own policy, instead of only acting within their established parameters. This erodes trust. Wikipedia needs to update their public guidelines/policies to disclose their position on censorship and that they do indeed censor/suppress based on the rejected principle of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoiding_harm , or this topic ban/suppression needs to be released. The current topic ban destroys the credibility of the encyclopedia. MeropeRiddle (talk) 16:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC) This is quite outside of AN/I's purview, IMO. You can't just keep forum-shopping a pet concern all over the project and expect favorable feedback. Actions were taken by the oversight team out of concern for a living person, per WP:BLP policy. I'd rather see them err on the side of caution, even over-caution, in situations like this. Tarc (talk) 16:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

BLP policy fanaticism by Hullaballoo Wolfowitz

This crosses several noticeboards (BLP and Edit Warring at least), hence why I'm posting this here. An issue has come to light by this particular User, but one that is repeated quite often on WP by others. That is using BLP policy as a blanket shield to revert endless times any content that they contest under the guise of protecting WP and/or the person the article is about. In this particular instance, the subject is not only upset over the perceived "gutting" of her article, but has since used her radio show and her Facebook page with over 10,000 followers to comment on this User and also to debase and degrade Wikipedia.

The specifics are as follows: Rebecca Bardoux, is a former adult film actress and currently an internet radio show host and a stand-up comedian. In July of last year, content began to be added (the expansion of a stub article) regarding her comedian work [147]. This went through various revisions, had references added, reworked, removed and re-added, but was left in the article until August of this year when the User in question removed it along with its cited reference [148]. It was subsequently re-added by several other Editors and then removed or reverted by this User [149] [150] [151] [152] [153] [154] [155] [156] [157] [158] using various claims such as "unsourced" and then "sockpuppetry" and finally calling it "promotional".

Then the subject of the article noticed and commented publicly

It appears that new users where involved as well and my next point might explain why I believe this to be true. In the midst of this "BLP compliance allowed edit warring", the person who is the subject of this article took notice of what was happening to her article and she did not like it. She first commented on it on her Facebook page on August 27th [159](forgive me, I am unsure how to get that exact link, but its there now, just scroll down) and then again on her radio show on August 28th [160] at the 27:40 mark. The subject called for her listeners to go on this site and try to recover her article content which was seemingly attempted. Over these two days, Wikipedia was maligned in a variety of ways from being called unreliable to being "a bunch of bullshit" and calling Wikipedia Editors a "bunch of vigilantes". The subject even went to so far as to post Hullaballoo Wolfowitz' User name on her Facebook page. Others joined in and tried to update the article with additional sources, but this User just won't have it and continues to revert all of the material that has been recently added along with the associated references, see difs above.

The subject also mentioned on her radio show another adult film actress, Brittany Andrews, that she has similar problems with her article over several years. the other person also commented on the subjects Facebook page. The subject also questioned the legality of preventing accurate information from being posted on Wikipedia and speculated about what legal action would be required to prevent people from deleting accurate information about her.

Was this attention as damaging as this transpiring in a major newspaper or magazine, No, but my point is that a User who routinely uses BLP policy as a catch-all shield has not only obscured accurate information, but has caused damage to Wikipedia's reputation and the image of its editors. Regardless of your opinion of the subject or her profession, past or present, what this User is doing is making all of us look bad. For the record, I did notify this User of the consequences of his actions here.

I don't know what corrective action to request, because I don't know how this problem should be addressed. We have Editors who use BLP policy to run roughshod over any article about a living person as they see fit regardless of what happens in the real world and/or seemingly without regard for accurate information that even the subject themselves actually want posted. I have heard about similar instances, but this is the first time I have seen it actually transpire as well as hear in the subject's own words about what they think of how their article is managed by the Wikipedia community. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 16:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

The basic problem here is that PORNBIO is bullshit and these articles should be deleted, not edit warred over. 50.0.205.237 (talk) 16:40, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing your opinion, but this happens with all types of BLP articles. Another that comes to mind is for Robert Spitzer. This person has gone so far as to comment directly on their article's Talk page. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 17:08, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Those should probably mostly be deleted too. The reason we have all those restrictive BLP policies that screw up the articles' neutrality is our practice of writing BLP's against the subject's wishes. We should instead write them the same way we write other articles, but delete them if the subject asks us to. Anyway, yeah, it does look like HW is being POINTy and should back away. 50.0.205.237 (talk) 17:38, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Sophie.grothendieck

Sophie.grothendieck (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This editor is extremely involved in topics related to high-frequency trading such as IEX, which is evidenced by the fact that he made six reverts within 17 hours, each time re-inserting the same criticism section:

02:21, 7 September 2014

15:01, 7 September 2014

17:03, 7 September 2014

17:59, 7 September 2014

18:13, 7 September 2014

19:14, 7 September 2014

The main issues here are however that this editor

1. has a conflict of interest with respect to topics related to high-frequency trading
2. made controversial edits in violation of Wikipedia's conflict-of-interest policy
3. and finally, he has lied repeatedly about his conflict of interest.

Let's start with the first point. Using the information this editor disclosed himself, it is easy to find a video presentation about the trading firm that this editor himself called "his firm" and "his employer". In this recorded presentation at time index 04:25, a slide is shown with the following content:

XXX is a high-frequency trading hedge fund at the intersection of computer science and finance

I replaced the name of the firm with XXX for privacy reasons. If desired, I will provide a short instruction how to find this video on the web and can do so without disclosing information that this editor did not disclose himself already. So here we have this guy's firm/employer and they identified themselves as "a high-frequency trading hedge fund" during a public presentation, which proves the first point.

The second point is obvious from the edit warring pointed out above and to add a bit of background, IEX is a financial trading venue that spoke out against certain predatory strategies employed by high-frequency traders.

The third point is proven by these quotes:

I cannot make a qualifed statement if we are "doing HFT" because I do not believe there is a general consensus on the definition of that term.

— Sophie.grothendieck (talk) 07:07, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I do not think that's an accurate description of what I consider to be "high-frequency trading" but if that is the definition that you go by, then no, we do not meet those criteria.

— Sophie.grothendieck (talk) 07:28, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I have clarified my position on the talk page that I have no conflict of interest

— Sophie.grothendieck (talk) 04:08, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I think it is very unfair to sincere editors who properly disclose their conflict of interest and go through the process of requested edits and the like, when this guy can just lie his way through and gets a pass on it. Kristina451 (talk) 16:48, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Devi ever : fx

I'm having a bit of an issue with a slew of SPA IPs and accounts inserting what I consider to be incorrect and unacceptable material in this little article about a minor company. Further details are on Talk:Devi_ever_:_fx#.22Controversy.22, and I don't wish to repeat myself, but in brief, primary references represented keep getting reinserted into the article, and a manufactured "controversy" keeps getting put in our article, along with information about the former owner--information that, if not an outright BLP violation, is at least deeply problematic. I'd like for an admin or two to assess a. whether these are indeed BLP violations, b. whether the editor (who I believe to be the same as two IPs in the history, and see talk page) needs a warning or stern talking to, and c. whether perhaps the article needs some protection.

As a side note, perhaps editors can see if this shouldn't be nominated for deletion. I'm all for supporting small manufacturers of boutique stuff, but this one is really quite minor and the sourcing is, well, meager. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Let me add, real brief, that I think there's a COI here as well--related to the company ownership, or perhaps to the botched Kickstarter campaign. Why else these comments on the former owner? Drmies (talk) 18:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
• In the meantime the new account has found the talk page, so the pressure is off a little bit. I'm still interested in opinions, of course. Drmies (talk) 19:08, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

The company comfortably fails WP:CORP, and a run-of-the-mill kickstarter controversy doesn't make it otherwise. It's neither our job to support small companies nor give a platform for unhappy kickstarter donors. We don't need to dissect which parts of this stuff belong in Wikipedia - none of it does. Off to AfD with it. -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 20:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism account

User:ZNaseer5's edit history seems to contain only baseless modifications, usually of numbers, without any source or explanation. Please stop them before more damage is done.

Place to report vandalism is thisaway. Amortias (T)(C) 19:50, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipediocracy doxxing

Wikipediocracy doxxed a couple users, including myself (though who I am is no secret) and a minor. REDACTED NAMES PER ADMIN REQUEST. I'm not sure if they're Wikipedia editors, but if they are, their actions are wholly unacceptable. Is there any way to find out if these folks are Wikipedia editors? If so, I'd like to see action taken against them. Titanium Dragon (talk) 20:51, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not believe that any of them are current Wikipedia users. The Wikipediocracy is an external website not under the jurisdiction of the Wikipedia in any manner. More often than not though, as in this situation, their editorial 100% nails it, IMO. Tarc (talk) 21:32, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, given that you've insulted everyone who was editing that article and trying to include information about the issue as misogynists, I'm not terribly surprised you agree with them. But your ill behavior is not at issue here. Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Interestingly, one other thing we have in common is that, unlike the other users involved in the editing of those pages, we both specifically warned @NorthBySouthBaranof: about his/her behavior. Not sure if it is related. Do you know who these people are, North? Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I would warn you about your behavior in attempting to smear living people on the encyclopedia, but that's already been done numerous times by administrators who have had to repeatedly revision-delete your scurrilous nonsense about Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian. Given your penchant for making unfounded accusations about them, I'm not surprised that you're making unfounded insinuations about me, either. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:39, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a pretty serious allegation, or at least implication. You are understandably upset about what happened, but maybe step back and think about what you are saying, and reserve your anger for the four individuals at Wikipediocracy, one of whom is already indef blocked. Gamaliel (talk) 21:42, 8 September 2014 (UTC)