Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Default State RFC

Overview

WMF has now provided a preference that allows individual editors to disable the Visual Editor. This preference currently defaults to enabling the software, meaning that any new editor is exposed to the Visual Editor, although that editor is not warned in advance that the editor is in beta test and may damage the article or behave in unexpected ways. Similarly, the option of using VE is presented to anonymous editors, although that editor is not warned in advance that the editor is in beta test and may damage the article or behave in unexpected ways.

This RFC is intended to seek English Wikipedia's consensus on whether this is the correct behaviour for this preference. It is true that the WMF is not bound by this consensus, but they have shown a willingness to respect the decision for both the Dutch and German Wikipedias, both of which have persuaded WMF to default to disabling VE until an editor changes his preference, making it an "opt-in" preference.

This RFC is structured around a few simple questions. It is not a vehicle for insulting WMF, nor is it a vehicle for venting any frustrations about the Visual Editor. The options are purposely not mutually exclusive: it would be quite possible, for example, to favor leaving the switch unchanged for existing editors while making it default to "disable" for any new accounts. Similarly, one could believe that it is legitimate to leave VE enabled for anonymous editors and also favor changing the user interface to clearly indicate that VE is in beta.

Question 1: When a new account is created, should the preference be set to disable VE ("opt-in") or to enable VE ("opt-out")?

Opt-in

1. Opt in because new and anonymous users can easily edit articles using VE and wont get frustrated.Bsamiwalaa (talk) 16:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
2. Beta software should always be opt-in. Not all editors want to test new code.—Kww(talk) 01:25, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
3. Opt-in until more of the bugs are fixed. VE (in my experience) is not ready to be the default yet. (Just to be clear, I think VE is going to be a great thing someday, and is the way of the future; for now, though, it's not ready. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
4. Opt-in. The software just isn't there yet. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 01:41, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
5. MUST be Opt-in. VE is a disaster for new editors. It's just too darned slow. Guaranteed to make them lose interest in the project. A discussion on this (with pretty strong unanimity) is underway at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Editor Retention#Visual editor's slothfulness is an editor retention issue. HiLo48 (talk) 02:36, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   slowness? I don't notice any. even on my cheapo laptop. unless you're running a 10-year old system (and then it's way past time to upgrade), it shouldn't be significantly slower, unless it's coded inefficiently -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 04:34, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Aunva6 - did you bother to look at the link I provided? Or just assume that your experience is common to everyone? I learnt that was a bad approach to life when I was about 8 years old. HiLo48 (talk) 07:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   sorry, misunderstood. i thought you meant it slows the site down even when not in use. my bad. it is really, really slow to load up, even on my i7-920. not sure how they managed to make it so slow, but that alone should put this into the Alpha status, it's not even ready for beta! -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 00:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

   HiLo48 - That was a pretty unpleasant and unnecessary flaming - but looking at your history and general weaselling I guess to be expected.Plingsby (talk) 18:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

6. Snow, until it is more stable.--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Hi Canoe1967. I'm having difficulty understanding your comment here. What do you mean by "Snow"? --MZMcBride (talk) 09:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

   It should be a 'snowball' change because as of now the vote is 212/20. I think it is obvious that there are still issues that should be resolved. Until then editors should be given the opt-in option after being warned of the downside issues.--Canoe1967 (talk) 15:44, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

7. Opt-in, per the above comments. I've tried using VE three times over the past few weeks, on three separate pages. Each time, it didn't work right, and when I went to report the problems, I saw that the issues had already been reported (but not fixed.) I expected bugs, but not a 0% success rate. This tells me that the software is not yet ready for widespread use, although I think anyone who wants to help beta test it should be able to do so. 28bytes (talk) 02:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Hi 28bytes. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. For example, here is one of my edits made with VisualEditor. According to this same search, you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on the issues you're having with VisualEditor? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

   Sure, I'll be happy to. First, I tried to edit a section of a large page, and got this, repeatedly. Apparently you cannot edit a section (it looks like you were the one to report that problem originally, in May: Template:Bugzilla), so VisualEditor attempts to do its thing with the entire page, which it can't reliably do on large pages. I first tried this a month ago, and double-checked yesterday to see if this was still an issue: it is. Second, I tried to fix a bit of broken markup, which VisualEditor interpreted to mean I wanted to retain the broken markup but wrap it in <nowiki> tags. This led me to Template:Bugzilla, which even Jimbo acknowledged ought to be addressed: However, it is extremely well known, even by non-editors, that square brackets make a link, and the odds of someone actually wanting literal square brackets are very very small. Making the visual editor default to interpreting square brackets as a link sounds right to me. Why does Visual Editor assume someone typing brackets wants literal brackets? That seems like a very strange assumption. As has been pointed out earlier today, Visual Editor both requires editors to be familiar with the bracket syntax in one location (when editing linked elements of an infobox, for example) but refuses to accept it in another. Either treating [[ as a trigger to bring up the link insertion dialog or simply converting a properly formatted link to what the editor intended would be so much better than just giving them the stern warning You are using VisualEditor - wikitext does not work here. Click "Edit source" to edit the page in wikitext mode – unsaved changes will be lost. Speaking of which, why will unsaved changes be lost? When I'm using the WYSIWYG editor on other websites, I can quickly toggle between WYSIWYG mode and markup mode. That's a pretty basic feature. Why was that not included in the "beta" release? So you are correct, I have not saved any VE edits, because VE would either not (easily) let me do what I wanted to do, or would not even load the page at all. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea behind the VisualEditor – Wikipedia badly needs this. But the JavaScript warnings and lack of a toggle between two modes are dealbreakers for me. (Side note: there's a handy "–" link in the standard editor that inserts an en dash; is there a VE equivalent to that?) 28bytes (talk) 15:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

   I find it quickest to type Alt-0150 on a PC (easier on a Mac of course). Andreas JN466 16:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

   Thanks. I guess I was hoping VisualEditor offered a more... visual... way of doing it. 28bytes (talk) 20:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

8. opt-in, beta software is, by definition, that which is too buggy for a full release. this might even be borderline alpha, but it still got pushed out. there is a reason that beta is typically an opt-in testing phase. yopu get more focused feedback from those who will know what is the fault of VE, and what is not. -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 04:34, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Hi Aunva6. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have one edit made with VisualEditor, which looks completely fine to me. Can you please elaborate? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

9. opt-in. As a host at The Teahouse, I have been watching discussions revolving around use of and confusion about use of the VE from new editors who swing by to ask questions about it (see [1], [2], and [3]). The experience has generally been confusing for new editors and, as a host, I and others have found it difficult to feel motivated to give advice on how to use an interface that is frustrating to a new editor. It should therefore certainly be an opt-in feature. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 05:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
   • To be fair, there is now a full opt-out option in the editing section of preferences (which two of the links you point to asked about), and references have been improved since the comment you posted (to get rid of the confusing first step to select an existing citation). Still a lot of room for improvement, to be sure.--Eloquence* 06:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
10. New editors sign up (hopefully) to improve the encyclopedia, not to serve as involuntary beta testers. m:Research:VisualEditor's effect on newly registered editors/Results shows that bugs in VisualEditor are destroying new editors' productivity and enthusiasm. MER-C 05:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi MER-C. I took a look at the link you provided (m:Research:VisualEditor's effect on newly registered editors/Results) and I'm not quite sure which fact or figure you're pointing to that shows bugs in VisualEditor are "destroying new editors' productivity and enthusiasm." Can you please be more specific? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

11. One stage further, new editors should have a substantial number of edits behind them before they are give the chance to opt. On many of the most popular pages we have substantial comment messages to help new editor from embarrassing themselves- they need to see these as they start to edit. New editors should not be exposed to software that is not rock solid stable. No-one should be given an open choice before they understand the implications, and they need to have experience in the basics before the choice is meaningful. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 05:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
12. Opt-in. I am still of the opinion that traditional wikitext editing is easier for newbies as they can quickly learn from the wikitext typed by other Wikipedians. See also comment by User:I Jethrobot. --AFBorchert (talk) 06:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
13. Opt-in during beta period. If things get fixed, we can talk again... Carrite (talk) 06:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
14. Opt in. Until serious bugs and limitations are fixed and there is consensus that the software is no longer alpha or beta status. Begoon ^talk 06:17, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
15. Opt in for the time being. Once bugs are fixed and VE is more feature full, we can change this after discussion. --NicoV ^{(Talk on frwiki)} 06:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    With the answer to Template:Bugzilla (the main problem that add spurious nowiki tags to hundreds of articles every day) being "WON'T FIX", I would even go for totally disable VE now. --NicoV ^{(Talk on frwiki)} 20:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

16. Opt-in. It's a failed experiment. How we treat new editors (especially) should not depend on crystal-balling that something will someday work. Yngvadottir (talk) 06:38, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Yngvadottir. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor, particularly why you feel it's a failed experiment. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. For example, here is one of my edits made with VisualEditor. According to this same search, you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on the issues you're having with VisualEditor? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    It's causing everyone who does try it to break articles, and it was launched without adequate support for references, templates, alt chars ... and it takes ages to load and freezes/crashes. I did not volunteer for the true beta test, and saw all the bug reports from that test before it was made the default, let alone after. Those are my problems with it ... since you ask! Yngvadottir (talk) 12:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Well, not everyone. :-) If we filter Special:RecentChanges to only edits tagged with "visualeditor", we can see that plenty of edits are perfectly fine. But many are not.

    I understand and appreciate that VisualEditor very frustratingly continues to mangle certain edits, often without the user ever being aware. We need to fix this. If you have any more specific information about how/when VisualEditor freezes or crashes (which browsers, which operating systems, etc.), your feedback at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback or directly at Bugzilla would be invaluable to making VisualEditor suck less. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to me and to elaborate on why VisualEditor isn't yet up to par. I really appreciate it. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

17. Opt-in. You're not there yet, by a country mile. The VE beta may even need to be brought back to the initial requirements stage and recast. →StaniStani  07:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Stanistani. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have two edits made with VisualEditor, which both look completely fine to me. Can you please elaborate? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

18. Opt-in. Considering the current state of the Visual Editor, we're only doing a disservice to the new editors by trying to get them to figure out this, clearly, currently broken system. Having it be as an opt-in option for them would mean that just as many new editors (and anyone else) can try it if they'd like, but it isn't forced on them by default. Silverseren^C 09:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Silverseren. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have one VisualEditor edit. This edit looks fine to me and it seems like you've had no issue continuing to use the wikitext (or source) editor and/or avoiding the use of VisualEditor. Can you please elaborate on your concerns, particularly the fear that VisualEditor is being forced upon users? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

19. Opt-in or get rid of it. It fails (and actually does harm to) it's intended purpose. North8000 (talk) 11:06, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
20. Currently not suitable for public consumption.  Sandstein  10:52, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
21. No-brainer. Anything that is not finished should not be released as the default, when a perfectly usable alternative is already in widespread use. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:18, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Lukeno94. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I have 0 edits because I'd seen the mess VE made in my watchlist before I'd even thought about using it. I'm well aware VE edits are tagged; the nowiki error is obviously a common one, but there are plenty of other weird things I use. I fail to see why I need to elaborate on the above anyway; even the WMF admit the VE isn't finished, and the rest of my statement is common sense. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Lukeno94. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. :-)

    So you're commenting on VisualEditor without ever having tried it yourself? I'm not sure what you mean by "other weird things" that you use.

    I think we all agree that VisualEditor has a long way to go, but when you talk about software being "finished," I don't really follow along. Software is never finished. I'm reminded of this comic about having realistic criteria. Do you agree with this? --MZMcBride (talk) 09:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I tried it briefly. It is unsuitable to power users like myself (or anyone who prefers to work with the source directly). When I talk about software being finished, this refers to there being a stable, almost bug-free version, that is feature-complete; the version that is released to end-users, and then only gets some minor bugfixes and general maintenance updates. This is a pre-alpha program that is being presented as a beta, which in itself is totally wrong (betas are supposed to be almost feature-complete, this isn't close to that); add in to the fact that the WMF are forcing this half-finished, half-functional, half-assed editor on experienced editors and rookies alike, and you get the shit-storm that's going on at the moment. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Lukeno94. I somewhat agree with the labeling and I agree with you regarding power-users, however I'm not sure why you say users are being forced by the Wikimedia Foundation. Who's being forced and how? As far as I can tell, the current interface provides side-by-side wikitext (or source) editing and visual editing, with a user preference to completely disable VisualEditor from the interface altogether. If you have the time, I'd really appreciate any feedback you might have about why you feel this is being forced upon you (you're hardly alone in feeling this way, as demonstrated on this page). It would help to get a better understanding of this feeling so that the Wikimedia Foundation's behavior can be adjusted accordingly, as necessary and appropriate. --MZMcBride (talk) 09:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I'm struggling not to get very incredulous here. This editor was enabled by default for everyone, regardless of if they wanted it or not. The WMF have made the "edit" button refer to the VE; so muscle memory will end up causing people to use the VE without wanting to. Also, making the old editor work on the "edit source" button will confuse new users, irregular users or even untechnically minded users, since it introduces a confusing term for them. The fact that the VE was rolled out to new users and IPs, even after it had been clearly demonstrated to be completely unready is a CLEAR example of the WMF not giving a shit and just barreling on regardless. As is the half-assed nature of the "turn off VE" debacle; first refusing to instate the switch, then enabling it with the "Temporarily disable VisualEditor while it is in beta", which is NOT what people want - we want a proper on/off switch that the WMF can't remove at their will by falsely claiming the VE is "finished". And the button is still invalid, because VE isn't a beta. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hey Lukeno94. I apologize if my responses came off as badgering or trolling or anything of that nature. I assure you they're not.

    I completely agree with you that parts of the way that this has been deployed have been subpar. I screamed louder (and frankly meaner) than most about the deliberate removal of the user preference to completely disable VisualEditor and I was very glad when it was restored. I agree that the half-assed compromise (i.e., labeling the user preference as temporary) is not a sustainable solution, but as a temporary measure, it's a step in the right direction.

    I also think you're absolutely right, after having read beta software, that calling VisualEditor "beta" is not a good idea at this time. VisualEditor simply isn't beta software. I noted this at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Improvements with this edit and I'll be filing a bug shortly to try to get the software re-labeled here as soon as possible.

    Thank you very much for taking the time to explain your frustration with VisualEditor and its deployment. If you have other ideas for ways to make VisualEditor less annoying/cumbersome/painful/awful, please share at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Improvements. The community absolutely should be able to set priorities and triage what's most important to them and their work throughout VisualEditor's development. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:16, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

22. Opt-in. At the very least until all the bugs are fixed and it is able to support all the commonly used features that the normal editor allows. Although even then such a major change to the default editor should have community consensus before becoming opt-in. Sarahj2107 (talk) 11:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
23. Opt-in by default iff the option for no default (see discussion section) is not possible or as a temporary state until it is. Thryduulf (talk) 12:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
24. Not ready. Andreas JN466 12:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Before anyone asks me: I have made plenty of edits with VE on German Wikipedia. The reason I haven't made any here is that on English Wikipedia I have never been able to get the VisualEditor to progress past the blue bars, which just keep flashing forever, without ever letting me edit the article. :) Even that I only get when I right-click on "Edit" and open VE in a new window. If I just left-click on "Edit" in the normal way, nothing happens. At all. There are people on German Wikipedia with the same problem in reverse: they can use VE here, but when they click on it on their home wiki, nothing happens. Andreas JN466 13:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hey Andreas. That's really good to know. :-) If you have the time/inclination, filing a bug report in Bugzilla might be very helpful in diagnosing the issue that you're having.

    Off-hand (and with very little information), it sounds like a JavaScript conflict of some kind. Your Web browser has a JavaScript error console somewhere within it. If you can try to use VisualEditor and simultaneously check that browser JavaScript error log (sometimes called an error console) for any unusual output, it may help diagnose the issue you're having (e.g., a conflicting local user script or local JavaScript gadget). It's bugs exactly like this that need to get filed/reported so that the developers who are actively working on VisualEditor can fix them. Thanks again for expanding on your previous comment; I really appreciate it. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Thanks MZMcBride, will have a look. I'm not on Bugzilla, but have reported it over on de:WP. Andreas JN466 15:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Error message on left-clicking is "Uncaught TypeError: Object function (E,F){return new o.fn.init(E,F)} has no method 'Deferred'". Opening the error console after right-clicking shows "Uncaught TypeError: Not enough arguments". Andreas JN466 16:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

25. Opt-in. – Plarem ^{(User talk)} 13:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
26. Opt-in. Until community consent on VE's readiness. -- Hillbillyholiday ^talk 13:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
27. Opt-in - per User:Kww. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 13:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
28. Serving the innocent public with adulterated Kool-Aide, which does not quench thirst, is ill-mannered. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:11, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Kiefer.Wolfowitz. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns re: Kool-Aide? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    @MZMcBride: Editing music (GNU Lilypond) and apparently mathematics are beyond the scope of Visual Editor. You might have looked at my comments on VE or at my article contributions. Nobody in their right mind uses VE, and so perspicacious intelligent editors have zero edits using VE. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

29. Beta -> opt-in.--Aschmidt (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
30. Beta -> Opt-in, no question. -- Andreas Werle (talk) 16:14, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
31. Opt-in, per the above. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
32. Opt-in. No question at this stage. Intothatdarkness 16:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
33. Opt-in. It should have been opt in all along. Kumioko (talk) 17:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
34. New editors first experiences editing articles can't be *crash*. And that's the only behaviour I can get out of the VE on any article of any decent length. Courcelles 17:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
35. Opt-in, at least until the bugs are worked out. Albacore (talk) 17:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
36. Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 17:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
37. When I first saw "edit" and "edit source" above the subsection of an article a few weeks ago, I actually thought that it might have some practical use to it; nothing wrong with keeping an open mind, right? But after using the new feature, I feel very confident in saying that it is a textbook example of a solution in search of a problem. When I first started editing all the way back in 2007, I had no issues with learning basic Wiki markup. I remember the first time I wanted to add a link to another page — so I looked around on the editing screen for examples on how to do it. Every other piece of text that appears as a link in the article was surrounded by two square brackets on each side. Typing [[The Sixth Sense]] as shown here results in an interwiki link: The Sixth Sense. Then I wanted to figure out how to add a link to another article while making it so that the text was different from its title. Just by looking around, I learned that by typing [[The Sixth Sense|this]] as shown, with a line between the article's title on the left and the featured text on the right, it'll give me this (I only learned several years later that this technique is called "piping"). Are we to assume that the average person isn't competent enough to figure this out for themselves? Even if they just wanted to make a minor edit, like adding the word "sold" to a paragraph, all they have to do is click the "edit this page" button at the top of the article (or just the "edit" button at the top-right corner of the relevant section), scroll down, and type it in. It's not rocket science! And now that I think of it, having two separate options for altering the page actually strikes me as more intimidating to newcomers, because the "edit source" part gives the impression that there's a steep learning curve to picking up on Wiki markup, and that's simply not the case at all. So I think it should be an opt-in feature for registered accounts at most; I wouldn't lose any sleep if it were removed from the MediaWiki interface entirely. Kurtis ^(talk) 18:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
38. Opt-in: too much missing functionality.--ukexpat (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi ukexpat. I'm trying to understand your concerns regarding VisualEditor. Which functionality do you find missing? Can you please elaborate? It will help development efforts. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 08:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

39. It's still beta, and there are a lot of known issues. If a new editor thinks that's the way editing will always be, it's likely to put them off, and they may not come back even once VE has reached release-ready performance and functionality. To address Jimbo's concern below, a new editor could be explicitly asked, at account creation, if they would like to use the beta editor as the default, with instructions on how to disable it and a warning that it's beta software and will have issues. That will give them the choice. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Seraphimblade. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? In particular, do you think it's reasonable to say that the wikitext (or source) editor might put off an untold number of potential editors as it's arguably very intimidating? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    MZMcBride: It is correct that I have not completed an edit with VE, because I was unable to. I did try it, but the slow performance made it essentially unusable. I don't disagree with the idea of having an assisted editor in principle, and in fact I think it's a great idea, as long as editors always have the option to directly edit the source. It's the current implementation that's the problem. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Sorry, I realized I didn't fully answer your question. For the type of edits a new editor will likely be doing (typo fixes, adding a sentence, etc.), I don't think the wikitext editor is terribly intimidating at all. However, there are some people who see any type of code-looking markup and run away screaming. By all means, give them the option of using the beta visual editor, but make sure they know it's beta. That will have two benefits: They'll know what they're in for, they'll know an alternative is available, and know to expect bugs and problems and that reporting them is encouraged and appreciated. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

40. Opt-in. That way new users don't get turned off by a plugin/software that isn't fully functional and may have some serious bugs. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 19:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Jéské Couriano. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

41. – Juliancolton | ^Talk 19:38, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Juliancolton. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

42. Opt-in in it's current state (unless you claim every user with an account is a beta-tester, which is nonsense of course, but the kind of nonsense WMF actually seems to believe in). --Patrick87 (talk) 19:54, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
43. Forcing beta onto newbies is simply destructive - it obviously goes diametrically against our editor-retention aim. Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 20:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
44. Opt-in until a stable and quick version is obtained.  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 20:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
45. Opt-in. This shouldn't be forced on us anyone. Manxruler (talk) 21:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC) And by opt-in, I mean always opt-in, and not opt-in for a limited period. Manxruler (talk) 20:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Manxruler. It looks like you currently have about 33,000(!) edits here, of which 0 (or none) are VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on why you feel VisualEditor is being forced on anyone when you're capable of continuing to use the wikitext (or source) editor and you've successfully avoided using VisualEditor altogether here so far? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi MZMcBride. Yes, 33K+ edits. And not at any point, even when I first started more than eight years ago, was wikitext challenging to use, unlike VE. Yes, VE has had a negative impact on my editing, in that: 1. It took quite a while to get rid of that VE button labelled "edit", which was tiresome. 2. VE slowed things down for me, especially to begin with. I have a slow computer and a poor internet connection, which doesn't play well with VE, even when it's hid and just running in the background. 3. When I was recently offered the option to turn it off, it was also happily announced that "This option is recommended, as it will automatically give you a chance to try VisualEditor again when it's more developed and fully-featured." How lovely. No thanks. 4. I severely dislike having to make a regular effort to avoid VE. 5. Being "capable" of/allowed to edit with wikitext by jumping through various loops hoops isn't what I want, I want to be able to turn the VE thing off, and not be asked ever again. Period. And to not have made any edits with VE isn't the same thing as not having tried to use it. Manxruler (talk) 16:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Further, I think that rather than spend time looking into the edit history of each of the individuals here, you should be looking into the complaints and wishes expressed. Manxruler (talk) 16:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

46. Opt-in. Given the NOWIKI issue, where the VE managers have now stated that a bug that is damaging multiple articles by the hour will not be fixed and it is to be left to editors to clear up the mess, this is now imperative. Black Kite (talk) 21:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
    • "The nowiki issue" is really several issues. The nowiki tag is used for escaping wikitext. We will always escape, rather than parse, wikitext that's entered into VisualEditor. We've already inserted a warning when this occurs to reduce accidental insertion of wikitext, and are open to other options. There are other contexts in which wikitext is sometimes escaped where we can do more to reduce over-escaping.--Eloquence* 22:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
      • That's not really the point Erik, and I think you know it. Regardless of how many articles the NOWIKI issue is breaking (and it is breaking articles on a regular basis, and you're requiring someone to clean up after it) the main issue is that code that is not functional is still being used. Frankly, Opt-In isn't the issue here; IMHO VE really needs to be turned off until it's not causing multiple errors and problems. Black Kite (talk) 02:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
47. This software simply isn't ready. I can't believe we are now having serious discussions about writing bots and scripts to clean up mess made by this that the developers have said they're not even going to try to fix. The WMF's own research shows the software is damaging editor recruitment and Kww has a point that new editors shouldn't be involuntarily used as software testers. Hut 8.5 21:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
48. Per all of the above. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:41, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Tryptofish. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? Unfortunately, "per all of the above" doesn't really explain to me what issues you're having with VisualEditor. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 09:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Thank you for your attention to my editing history (maybe I'll be notable soon). In fact, I did try VE numerous times, but I decided not to save any of my edits because I was concerned each time that I might end up doing something unhelpful. However, I did acquire a reasonable amount of experience with it, and I went to the VE feedback page with a list of specific issues in mind. When I got there, I observed that other users had already reported everything of which I was aware, and there were already open Bugzillas on each of them. As for opt-in, I believe that something that is still as buggy as this should be something that users can choose to use, as opposed to having to choose not to use it. The defense rests. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    That's fair enough. We'll leave Tryptofish as a red link for now. ;-)

    Thank you for expanding on your comments. It's comments such as yours that are giving me more clarity into editor frustration. The lack of a fast enough response to reported issues seems to be at the heart of many complaints (similar, in some ways, to the wiki principle "I didn't hear that"). Feeling as though feedback isn't being heard or isn't being acted upon quickly enough, especially in conjunction with the seemingly rigid deployment timeline, is going to create strife and anger. Thanks again for taking the time to flesh out your thoughts, Tryptofish. I appreciate it. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

49. Opt-in, with a notice to tell them that there is a new experimental VE available to test, directing those who are interested to a page listing pros, cons and expected problems, how to report bugs and linking to the user guide. (It is apparent from the number of new editors tripping Filter 550 that many of them have some prior experience of wiki markup, having edited as IPs). JohnCD (talk) 21:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
50. Of course beta software should be opt-in. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
51. Opt-In Let the newbies choose down the line, hopefully when it's out of beta. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 23:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
52. Opt-In Until community consensus that it is stable. TheOverflow (talk) 23:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
53. Opt-In though I rather see it removed completely as a failed project. Secret ^account 23:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Secret. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns, in particular why you view VisualEditor as a failed experiment? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

54. (edit conflict)Opt-in - Unless we want this buggy beta to cause us to lose more new editors than we would gain without it! PantherLeapord (talk) 23:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
55. Opt-In (edit conflict) at least 6 months to re-evaluate. The study of 19,500 new usernames revealed that 41% of VE-enabled users (2 of 5!) did not save the edit, while most non-VE users did save (given option to quit the edit). VE has revealed a new interface format: WYSIWYG-WASTE ("Without Anyone Saving The Edit), because new users should be warned to Save changes, and those 41% who neglected to Save were likely thinking the words were typed on the screen to update the page (so, What is Save?). The July edit-activity stats should show a huge reduction in edits, due to 41% not saved by new usernames, even though perhaps nearly as many people were trying to edit. Turn off VE for new users to require Opt-in, for 6+ months. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
56. opt-in per basically everyone. Sailsbystars (talk) 00:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Sailsbystars. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? Unfortunately, "per basically everyone" doesn't really explain to me what issues you're having with VisualEditor. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 08:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    HiMZMcBride, I actually participated in the testing back in January and found VE less than useless (so I didn't make the edits) because it couldn't handles refs at that point. I also dithered around in the new editor without saving changes because it didn't do what I wanted to do at that particular time. Heck, I even filed a polite feedback item. The new version is vastly improved since what I tried back in January but still not at a level that it should be used as default. Sailsbystars (talk) 16:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

57. Opt-in because new users should not have an incomplete, non-intuitive, and buggy interface as their default editing experience. postdlf (talk) 01:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
58. Definitely opt-in: the first comment pretty much said it all. Jsayre64 (talk) 01:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
59. This is too buggy to have otherwise. TCN7JM 02:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi TCN7JM. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns about VisualEditor being too buggy? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I don't have to have used it personally (though I did try it for a little while before it was officially released, don't know whether or not I saved an edit) to know of the errors it has considering sources and its inability to do section edits, et cetera. TCN7JM 09:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi TCN7JM. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. :-) While earlier versions of VisualEditor did not support section-editing, the current version certainly does. Have you tried section-editing with VisualEditor? Does it work for you? If you could elaborate on what you mean by "errors... considering sources," that would also help with VisualEditor development. --MZMcBride (talk) 09:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Well I mean, like, section edit buttons are there, but you can still edit the whole page after clicking it, which kind of defeats the purpose of a section edit, since editing the whole page might still cause the edit conflicts et cetera. As a courtesy note, I will say that it is 4:40 AM over here and I probably should get some kind of sleep, so I'll be unable to respond for a few hours. TCN7JM 09:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

60. Opt-in at this time, please. - Dank (push to talk) 02:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
61. Opt-in. My personal distaste for WYSIWYG editors aside, I stridently object to making something new and poorly tested the default choice. Most new editors will have no clue how to disable this, or even that an alternative exists. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 02:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
62. Strong Opt-in. I am a software developer and quality assurance analyst by trade. If a QA analyst were to let software as buggy as this slip past in this state, he'd be looking for a new project, if not employer. If a Project Manager were to suggest putting it in front of a client for anything other than milestone review (let alone acceptance testing), he'd be laughed out of the room. VE is simply not production ready.  Jim Reed (Talk)  03:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
63. Beta -> Opt-in. Mkdw^talk 03:36, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
64. Opt-in. Spencer^T♦C 04:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
65. Nothing in beta should be default. StringTheory11 (t • c) 04:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi StringTheory11. I'm having difficulty understanding your comment here. The current user interface provides a wikitext (or source) editor alongside VisualEditor, both in the tabs at the top of the page and with section-edit links. What do you consider to be the default if both options are being provided to users? I'm confused. --MZMcBride (talk) 09:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

66. Riggr Mortis (talk) 05:19, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Riggr Mortis. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. It looks like you currently have one edit using VisualEditor. That edit looks perfectly fine to me. Can you please elaborate on your concerns with VisualEditor? --MZMcBride (talk) 09:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

67. Opt-in per Kww. —Bruce1ee^talk 05:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
68. Opt-in even though as an Opera user I haven't been able to actually try it... Dsergeant (talk) 06:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
69. Opt-in. Until VE is not in beta. LT90001 (talk) 07:32, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
70. Opt-in. Certainly. Insulam Simia (talk) 07:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
71. Opt-in. If and when the software is stable and well-developed, then we can reassess. Until then, it should not be the default. Modest Genius ^talk 09:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Modest Genius. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns re: VisualEditor being stable and well-developed? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    What, are you trying to catch people out here? What relevance does my number of saved edits have? For what it's worth, I tried using it when it was first enabled, but had the following problems: a) it took forever to load and responded slowly to everything I tried to do, b) using the 'preview' button I realised that it was about to break other bits of wikitext (tables, nowiki tags etc.) c) I couldn't get it to sensibly use references d) I've seen a large proportion of edits using VE which have had to be reverted (mostly on my watchlist) e) there was no working opt-out, which itself shows the software wasn't fully developed. Once it became unavailable I opted out. Unless the software has substantially improved in the last couple of weeks (given its long gestation, that seems incredible), my concerns are still valid. Many people have raised a large number of legitimate concerns over VE, and hounding people who !voted for this proposal with a boilerplate reply does nothing to address them. Modest Genius ^talk 10:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Modest Genius. I'm not trying to catch anyone, I'm just trying to understand the pattern I'm seeing here. It's quite clear that many don't like VisualEditor. It's not nearly as clear why that is. Knowing the latter may help resolve the former. Your expanded comment gave me a better understanding of why you feel the way that you do (and likely why others feel the same way that you do). I'm not sure if you following m:Tech/News, but VisualEditor is in fact undergoing rapid development. It isn't the same software it was a month ago or even a week ago. Changes are being made daily and being pushed weekly (if not several times a week). In any case, thank you very much for taking the time to expand on your comments. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Well then that work should have been done before the premature launch of untested software. Perhaps during - here's an idea - an opt-in beta testing phase. As it is the community has overwhelmingly turned against VE, and changing that is going to require a lot more than just saying it's being improved. The damage has been done. The best response by the WMF would be to disable VE completely, do some proper surveys of what does/doesn't work, fix the bugs, run an opt-in beta for a few months, then try again when it's working better (in say 3-6 months time). Modest Genius ^talk 16:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

72. Opt-in Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 10:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Armbrust. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

73. Opt-in --Meno25 (talk) 10:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
74. --Eingangskontrolle (talk) 10:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
75. Opt-in Since it's known to be buggy, have it "Opt-in" for those that want to help debug it. New users, realistically, shouldn't be expected to look for bugs in Beta software as well as learn the Wikipedia itself.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  11:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
76. Opt-in I support the idea, but let's make it work a little better, so we don't lose editors. Particularly the ones who are not entirely familiar with Wikipedia and beta testing. I have peers who dont realize the new editor is in Beta, so they gave up on editing megacephalic 12:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
77. Opt-in. VisualEditor is not yet in acceptable state to be the default editor. --Zundark (talk) 12:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
78. Definitely Opt-in per the above comments, VE is not at all ready for becoming the default editor yet. 2Flows (talk) 12:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
79. Opt-in. VE is full of bugs and not ready for prime-time, causing a lot of problems for others (i.e. the people who have to do the clean-up). Another (though probably not politically correct) reason for opt-in is that VE IMHO makes it too easy for new inexperienced editors to make big edits and large changes that they're not ready for yet. Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 12:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
80. Opt-in VE has many problems and a lot of time is required to fix them. The current interface might be a little boring but it much better than VE. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ ^{Talk Email} 13:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
81. Opt-in - I'll pile on. Let me add that recently I started using STiki to revert vandalism, since I seemed to notice a lot of it on my watchlist. A large percentage of vandals use VE, I am finding. Maybe we should call it VV instead... Visual Vandalizer. Jusdafax 13:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
82. Opt-in. Frankly, the thing is way too buggy to be rolled out in the first place.  Yintan  14:17, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Yintan. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns, particularly what you find to be buggy with VisualEditor? Any insights you have will be valuable to further development of VisualEditor. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 08:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I've used VE as an IP, experienced it, and read the many, many bug reports. Can you simply accept my opinion without checking my edit count? Thanks.  Yintan  09:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Yintan. It's important in a discussion such as this to understand why people don't like VisualEditor. Actionable feedback helps improve the software. Simply saying the software is "buggy" doesn't give developers or others an idea of what to work on or fix. If you can provide any edits that were hurt by VisualEditor (as an IP or otherwise), that would be great. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, I appreciate it. --MZMcBride (talk) 09:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    If you need "an idea of what to work on or fix" I suggest you check Bugzilla. But I assume you're already a regular there, so I fail to see the point of your question. You want me to list all VE's problems with tables here, for example? Elaborate on the <nowiki> problems? Or how cut-and-paste doesn't work properly? Or how references can vanish? In short, tell you everything you already know? No, thanks.  Yintan  10:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    By the way, I don't like your comment that this RFC "does not seem to be particularly constructive"[4]. I'd say you got plenty of feedback here. Detailed, too.  Yintan  10:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Yintan. I'm one of the most active users in Wikimedia's Bugzilla installation. I've been actively following VisualEditor's development for a few months now and I'm certainly aware of the large number of bugs I've personally hit and the even larger number (mountain, really) of bugs that other users have hit. I'm trying to figure out how to make VisualEditor more tolerable, both in the short-term and in the long-term, so that its development can continue without a community revolt. (There have been serious suggestions of forking the project over this, which I think would be incredibly damaging to Wikimedia.)

    I believe that VisualEditor is the future, but that can't be true in a vacuum. Knowing why you or anyone else has decided to not use VisualEditor or to avoid using it is invaluable in figuring out ways to either make VisualEditor better or find ways to make it easier to hide (e.g., a much more prominent on/off switch).

    Some of the comments here I have indeed found less-than-helpful, as there's an active group of hard-working VisualEditor developers who are trying to look through a sea of noise and find signal and parts of this discussion make that really difficult. Actionable items such as "when I tried VisualEditor, it broke my edit in this way" are objectively more useful than simply saying "let's turn it off or make it opt-in again because it's buggy." We all know it's buggy—and at times deeply frustrating—but it can't improve without developers being able to figure out how to make it better, particularly by seeing which problems are being hit most frequently. Thank you for taking the time to expand on your comments. They added a bit of clarity to the underlying frustration that I'm seeing here and for that I'm grateful. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I don't doubt there are a lot of hard-working VE developers and I'm sure that some of the comments here are frustrating, but basically a lot of people appear to say "You've already got a massive To-Do list, fix that first before making it the default". A fair and very sensible point, IMHO. VE is a tool that isn't up to the job yet. From what I see on my RC patrols it appears to break as much as it's fixing. Limiting VE to dedicated users and beta testers makes perfect sense to me, rolling out an unfinished product to the entire wiki community doesn't. Regards,  Yintan  14:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

83. Opt-in because it's not ready for primetime (YET). Experienced editors (at least myself) greatly prefer to simply edit source rather than use a laggy WYSIWYG tool. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:02, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
84. Opt-in. I am utterly astonished that this is even being asked, given the experience the community has had with this not-yet-ready-for-prime-time interface. I have tried VE on several occasions, both on my main account and a new one, and neither way has it been worth while; in fact, i'm not certain i've actually managed to save any worth-while edits with it, and if i, relatively experienced and motivated, can't, why would a new editor, with less or no experience and motivation, bother to try? Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 15:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
85. Opt-in - it's a beta product, not suitable for general release just yet. Keep it opt-in for those who wish to help beta test but don't force it on unknowing editors Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 15:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Cabe6403. It looks like you currently have about 7500 edits here, of which 0 (or none) are VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on why you feel VisualEditor is being forced on anyone when you're capable of continuing to use the wikitext (or source) editor and you've successfully avoided using VisualEditor altogether here so far? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

86. Opt-in. Too many problems with the beta.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Bbb23. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns, particularly what you mean by "too many problems with the beta"? --MZMcBride (talk) 09:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

87. Opt-in. There's a decision to be made about whether I'll spend my volunteering time beta-testing the software or editing the encyclopaedia. Since I'm the volunteer, I should be the one that makes that decision. The "opt-out" model of the initial rollback was cheeky because it was an example of the WMF trying to manage how my volunteering time would be spent. I'd like to be treated with more respect in future please.—S Marshall T/C 16:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi S Marshall. It looks like you currently have over 18,700 edits here, of which 0 (or none) are VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on why you feel anyone is trying to make a decision about whether you should be a VisualEditor beta-tester when you're capable of continuing to use the wikitext (or source) editor and you've successfully avoided using VisualEditor altogether here so far? --MZMcBride (talk) 09:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Well, Mz, I'm one of the people who somehow managed to miss all of the notifications telling me that the Visual Editor was going to be enabled, so it came as a complete shock to me back when it was first switched on. I'm really not in the target demographic for the Visual Editor----I'm a Linux user. Therefore I'm obviously a speed-obsessed control freak with a gigantic beard who's accustomed to all computer-related changes no matter how small requiring my personal permission and password, and I'm obviously comfortable with text terminals... Anyway, when I logged in and found they'd changed things and slowed down the interface, I didn't try to edit. I immediately focused on working out how to turn it off. This was less than easy because at this point nobody had produced a shut-off guide, and there was a discussion taking place about how prominent the shut-off guide should be (with WMF employees openly advocating making it less obvious so that more people would try the editor).

    In short, the reason why I've avoided using the VisualEditor is because I've put effort and research into avoiding it. Which, I don't mind telling you, has put my back up and made me disinclined to co-operate.—S Marshall T/C 10:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi S Marshall. Thank you very much for expanding on your views. I completely agree that it was a mistake for the VisualEditor team to remove the user preference that completely disables VisualEditor and I'm very glad that it's been restored. Though even today it's currently being marked as a temporary user preference, which is really unfortunate. I hope that this mistake on the VisualEditor team's part does not end up being a fatal mistake, but the frustration that you and many others are expressing makes me worry, of course. I recognize that a certain set of users will always want to use wikitext/source editing (I'm likely among them, to be honest). I think finding a way to demonstrate clearly and forcefully that this user preference to completely disable VisualEditor is a non-negotiable would go a long way toward resolving editor tension and building trust between the VisualEditor team and active editors here. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I don't think we can allow it to be a fatal mistake. I think we're either going to have to make the wiki software easier to use or face up to the consequences of declining editor numbers. The visual editor, when fixed, is clearly the best of a bad set of alternatives. My point is that it has to be introduced in a respectful way without alienating existing users any further, in other words, each user needs to be asked before the editor's turned on for them.—S Marshall T/C 16:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

88. Opt-in. people want to get on with editing not beta-testing. Those that have spare time on their hands can opt-in. Agathoclea (talk) 16:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
89. Opt-in. I have seen several bugs here and there, and it is not at the moment, ready for new editors. Prabash.Akmeemana 18:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
90. Opt-in. I didn't have to spend very long trying out VE before I got frustrated, and I kind of have a clue what I'm doing. On the other hand, when I first came to WP years ago I thought that learning the basics of wiki markup was amazingly easy. I agree with those above who believe that VE is nowhere near ready for prime time, it really shouldn't even be considered a beta. There are hopefully enough people willing to sacrifice their time to testing this thing, but until it actually works, neither new users or average everyday editors should have deal with it. -Wine Guy~Talk 18:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
91. Opt-in: VE's user experience looks to have been designed by programmers for programmers rather than for the general population. Clicking on various places on a page shows mysterious shade changes and little jigsaws, then brings up dialogues blathering about "transclusion" and "parameters"; is this really something fit for a new user's first experience? Wikitext is clear by comparison, which was after all its original virtue. (Incidentally, try putting Jacques Lacan into VisualEditor - even more obscure than the man's works.) AllyD (talk) 19:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
92. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane}
93. Opt-in: Don't give new editors a buggy, unpleasant experience. Reify-tech (talk) 19:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
94. Opt-in. I too find the Visual Editor too slow to be useful. Axl ¤ [Talk] 20:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
95. Opt-in but with a visible pointer to the VE which is clearly described/marked as a beta version--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:26, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
96. Opt-in--Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 21:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
97. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 21:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
98. Opt-in United States Man (talk) 21:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
99. Opt-in The software is not production ready and the arguments behind its premature roll-out do not live up to empirical scrutiny. It is beyond my comprehension why this is being pushed upon user in a live environment when the extension itself is marked as experimental and comes with a warning to "[use] this at your own risk; it ... is not generally ready for real-world applications". --RA (✍) 22:14, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
100. Opt-in: It may be working better now, but not sure it should become the most prevalent editing option on Wikipedia. If any faults develop, or they take its early track record at face value, it might put new users off. --ProtoDrake (talk) 22:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
101. Opt-in which is how it should have been done in the first place instead of having the stupid thing imposed on editors. VE is permanently turned off for this editor....William 22:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
102. Opt-in: I'm sick of fixing good faith edits screwed up by the VisualEditor. Ginsuloft (talk) 22:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
103. Obviously Joefromrandb (talk) 22:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
104. Opt-in- Launching a buggy, poorly-tested editor was a bad idea. Imposing it on new editors would be a worse one. Reyk _YO! 22:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
105. I'd prefer it was removed and brought back for beta testing when its ready for testing. But yes it needs to be opt in - with a warning that it is slow and buggy. ϢereSpielChequers 22:32, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
106. Opt-in. New users join up to edit articles, not to screw around with new software.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 22:32, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
107. No one likes this thing do they? I can't stand it. Haven't read anything but hatred towards it. Went to my preferences to turn it off so I didn't keep accidentally hitting the wrong edit tab and having to exit out of it. The first step should be to find if anyone actually wants it, and if so then after you get it working right, you can let people decided if they want to try it or not. You shouldn't force everyone to use something that most/all won't want. Dream Focus 22:36, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
108. This thing sucks on ice. I'd prefer getting rid of it altogether, but the WMF devlopers would whine about that and/or try to sneak it back in the back door. We can at least focus on shoving it in the background wherever we can. I haven't contributed to Wikia in ages because it uses some wacko javascript editor that won't run in my browser. I had minimal contributions there so it didn't matter much, but I'd miss proper Wikipedia and I'm not sure it could do without me. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
109. Opt-in. Its terrible. Its so unuser friendly and down right confusing. Near impossible to edit with it. It glitches, it causes the website to load slow. --Rushton2010 (talk) 22:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
110. Opt in. I shudder to think how much money has been poured down the VE pit when we can't get access to databases for our content contributors.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
111. Opt in. Its doesn't look finished to me. --Marianian^(talk) 22:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
112. Opt-in. Not fully baked yet. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 22:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
113. Opt-in at the moment. --Stryn (talk) 22:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
114. Opt-in until it can better handle references Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
115. Opt-in until the major bugs have been sorted out and we are at a stable build. Even Twinkle is opt-in. Though I realize this is a component of Wikipedia that is meant for everyone, it shouldn't be rolled out if one doesn't want it. Now, when it hits a stable level, I'll change my position, but for now, I think that it would harm editor retention. --Jackson Peebles (talk) 22:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
116. Opt-in when it is beta and maybe longer. QED237 (talk) 23:01, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
117. Opt-in for obvious reasons that have already been stated a few dozen times. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
118. Opt-in visual editor is frustrating and difficult to use.--William S. Saturn (talk) 23:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
119. Opt-in I think someone else said this, but I personally think that only experienced editors (that actually want to) should be testing beta software. ALH (talk) 23:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
120. Opt-in, as the software is still in beta. Beta software should be always have to be enabled by choice and not be the default for editors, since the software is not yet stable. Lugia2453 (talk) 23:06, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
121. Opt-in indefinitely, even when it comes out of beta. --Zcbeaton (talk) 23:07, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
122. Opt-in Poorly planned and poorly implemented. This should have been tested out thoroughly first especially on the Wiki with the most traffic. Elockid ^(Talk) 23:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
123. Opt-in I've been with Wikipedia for a long time, and when I first used the new editor, I was very frustrated by its slow speed. New users are more likely to make minor edits, for which the plain-text editor is much faster and just as easy to use. --Bowlhover (talk) 23:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
124. Opt-in I originally didn't want to use VE, because I had heard how slow it is. If they are fine with slow times, then they can Opt-in. If they don't, they don't have to do anything. buffbills7701 23:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)\
125. Every software should be opt-in. —$\mathrm {ITAC}$ $\mathrm {aaaaaaaayyy}$ 23:10, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

     Huh? Should people be able to opt out of the spam blacklist? Of the account-creation throttle? Of the abuse filter? I'm just saying... it's one thing to support disabling the VE, but you're making far too vast a generalization. — PinkAmpers&^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 00:25, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

126. Opt-in,I think KWW the very first vote for opt in pretty much said the critical thing. That is the way you do a beta test. Its very unusual for a beta test to be the default for anyone let alone new users. MadScientistX11 (talk) 23:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
127. Opt-in It appears that a very good idea has been very badly handled. Opt-in ensures that editors who are not so confident about editing are saved from broken or fractured programming doktorb _words^deeds 23:14, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
128. Opt-in  This editor is only an option for a subset of users; so design-wise, it is better to default to a common starting point for everyone.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:16, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
129. As stated above, VE is buggy and not ready for prime time. New editors would likely become frustrated and stop editing, because they wouldn't know how to opt-out of VE. SMP0328. (talk) 23:19, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
130. Opt-in. Here's how this should have been done (even if it was much better tested and had less limitations), and how I would support it remaining in the interface as opt-out: VE is made the second option after wikitext editing (with always an option of making it the default in the future); regular editing is not utterly marginalized by the deceptive label "edit source", in combination with VW being just "Edit", so that even some old hand users think VE is the only option and wikitext editing is gone, and some kind of note is floated above the two saying something about the new two-option editing system, maybe providing a link to an explanation page.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
131. Opt-in Take it away and fix it. When it is fixed, ask who wants it. Bielle (talk) 23:21, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
132. Opt-in, but VE should somehow be advertised to new/anonymous users. BlueRidiculous (talk) 23:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
133. Per the numerous testimony that it being enabled by default is causing more harm than good. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:25, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
134. Opt-in - The VisualEditor is awful to begin with. I shudder to think about new members simply avoiding learning Wikicode and thus lacking a proper understanding of how all the formatting and mechanisms work. If people don't gradually learn about all the features of MediaWiki, they're bound to come up with suboptimal ways of doing things especially as regards templates and such.--Newbiepedian (Hailing Frequencies) 23:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
135. Opt-in. A good idea, but it isn't ready.— James Estevez (talk) 23:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
136. Opt-in. Code that is not RFP should not be on by default. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:38, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
137. Opt-in, of course. Everyking (talk) 23:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
138. Opt-in I decided to go from an IP account to a registered account in order to change the preferences so I don't see the Visual Editor. I kept hitting "Edit" by mistake (hundreds of times) instead of "Edit Source". If you have done ANY editing on Wikipedia and used mark-up language, Visual Editor is confusing. I still don't know what I can do besides edit text. I never figured how to wikify or create links. I'm not sure whether the VE backlash is so bad because VE has a bad user interface or because it just appeared one day and the community didn't get to choose. Newjerseyliz (talk) 23:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
139. Opt-in until VE improves. Unfortunately, the current opt-out structure means that new and anonymous users are essentially beta-testing something that experienced users know to avoid. Opt-out should be the eventual goal, but VisualEditor isn't there yet. Until VE is as fast and intuitive as making a comment on Facebook, it should not be the default. Andrew³²⁷ 23:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
140. Per Andrew in its current form VE is just as difficult to use as wikicode but for different reasons. If VE was improved I !vote otherwise but as per Andre above until VE is signiicantly improve Opting In is the best solution--Cailil ^talk 23:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
141. Opt-in. It works fairly well, but the bugs still need to be worked out, in my humble opinion. Michael Barera (talk) 23:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
142. Opt-in I think I've gotten VisualEditor to work properly twice? pbp 23:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
143. Opt-in. The stated purpose of Visual Editor is to encourage editor retention. But the reason editors leave the project isn't because they find the editing to be too difficult. By orders of magnitude, the issue is with social aspects of Wikipedia. Visual Editor is a technical solution to the wrong problem. I predict that, contrary to the aims of the WMF, it will not encourage more quality editors to stay with the project. Instead it will result in a net negative effect: a greater share of the contributions to the project will be poor, incoherent, or outright vandalism. Sławomir Biały (talk) 23:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
144. Alfie↑↓© 23:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
145. Strong opt-in. I second #90 AllyD, #133 Newbiepedian, and #83 LindsayH , just to name a few. Get it
     1. working reliably
     2. easy to use
     3. with good clear documentation
     4. that doesn't assume the newcomer knows almost as much as the old-timer does.

     Then, and only then, we can talk about opt-out. Until then, provide it as an option with clear warnings that it's in betatest, including what "betatest" means (see my #4) and may be is guaranteed to be unstable. --Thnidu (talk) 23:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

146. Opt-in VE is still in beta mode, and needs to be tested by users with experience. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
147. Opt-in, Informed consent. Jagnor (talk) 23:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
148. Beta software is always opt-in. Regardless if its "released" or not. Jguy _Talk^Done 00:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
149. Although its a huge step forward and to be welcomed, its still (approx -ve) beta. As somebody who spend a lot of time c/eing their own edits, I can see how when its developed further, it's going to be of huge benifit. I hope the developers are not too discouraged by all this fuss re the too early release; VE's time will come and the work will be appreciated. Ceoil (talk) 00:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
150. Opt-in, doesn't make editing easier. Pelmeen10 (talk) 00:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
151. Opt-in: Visual Editor is an awesome idea, and should have been started years sooner. But apparently it wasn't. This software is currently not suitable even for Beta release; this is still alpha software. If it's so slow that even experienced users with a persistent desire to fix things get frustrated waiting for it, it seems to reason that the very group it targets, new editors, would be turned off in droves.Eaglizard (talk) 00:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
152. Opt-in at least until fully developed, per Thnidu. --ELEKHH^T 00:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
153. A beta program should never be a default. --Holdek (talk) 00:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
154. Opt-in I've actively used the Visual Editor on both Wikipedia and my private wiki for the past few weeks, and while showing promise and being occasionally useful, it is currently too buggy to be usable by inexperienced editors. Major problems I've encountered include failure to properly render complex articles in edit-mode, semi-silent refusal so save edits after a medium-sized edit session, various corruptions of the wikitext on save (actual corruptions affecting the article, not merely cosmetic issues), and sluggishness when editing large and complex articles (even on very high-end hardware). I have no objection to changing this to an opt-out feature once the software is sufficiently stable. —Ruud 00:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
155. Opt-in the current software is just not advanced enough. It doesn't work well with templates, which makes using the referencing templates difficult. It also takes a little time to get used to, whereas anyone who has edited Wikipedia in the last 12 and a half years (a large number of people) will be familiar with editing the source. -teb00007 ^{Talk • Contributions} 00:25, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
156. Opt In. Because it doesn't work with small monitors. And don't don't tell me about changing the resolution. No person who isn't a geek (or at least a power user) is going to that, nor should anyone, geek or not, have to do that just to edit Wikipedia. Icedog (talk) 00:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
157. Opt-in until it's out of beta. Corn cheese (talk) 00:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     Beta software should always be opt-in. Not all editors want to test new code. Even very experienced editors like myself with 117,000 edits, may find the Beta software tricky and often stay mostly with the current software editing. Indent duplicate, unsigned vote. Command and Conquer Expert! ^{speak to me...}_{review me...} 01:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

158. Beta software should always be opt-in. Not all editors want to test new code. Even very experienced editors like myself with 117,000 edits, may find the Beta software tricky and often stay mostly with the current software editing. --DThomsen8 (talk) 00:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
159. Opt-in. We want new editors to learn how to edit Wikipedia with a stable platform under their feet, and not have to deal with interface irregularities on top of learning policies and community norms. The Visual Editor is not ready for prime-time yet, and presenting new accounts with VE by default presents them with a bad first impression. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
160. Opt-in --AmaryllisGardener (talk) 00:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
161. Opt-in unless you rewrite it to be completely server-side. The VE cannot be made fast enough by fixing the existing bugs. Giant monstrosities of Javascript are inherently slow. Connor Behan (talk) 00:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
162. Opt-in, please. Let the user choose. Cwobeel (talk) 00:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
163. Opt in Tintin
164. Opt inElectroPro (talk) 00:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
165. Opt in, When I tried VE, it was slow, confusing, and crashed my UP TO DATE browser running on an UP TO DATE operating system. No thank you, I want to be able to edit Wikipedia, not test crappy beta software that makes editing next to impossible. I can't imagine how many new users would be scared off by forcing them to use this. I've been using the standard Wikipedia editing interface for quite a few years and it is what I am used to. Command and Conquer Expert! ^{speak to me...}_{review me...} 00:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
166. Opt-in, there is no reason to foist a buggy beta on everyone. Dagko (talk) 01:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
167. Opt in -- Isn't it too obvious? ViswaPrabhaവിശ്വപ്രഭ^talk 01:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
168. It's just too problematic at this point to use as the default. LadyofShalott 01:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
169. Opt-in Learning curves are good. μηδείς (talk) 01:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
170. Opt-in – Let's not rush into this just yet – wait until all hiccups have been ironed out. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 01:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
171. Opt-in It's a mess, to say the least. --Geniac (talk) 01:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
172. Opt-in Per all above. DecafGrub47393 (talk) 01:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
173. Opt-in - It is beta, it's annoying. Also per all above. Thegreyanomaly (talk) 01:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
174. Apteva (talk) 01:44, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
175. Opt-in It was ridiculous to have not done this from the beginning with buggy beta software, but no time like the present to fix it. However (a) it should not be located under "Gadgets" (very user-unfriendly jargon apparently copied from Google) but under "Editing" (and possibly also the main page) in the user preferences and (b) it should be prominently explained and offered during sign-up. You could go as far as keeping an "VE" tab (do NOT replace the "edit" tab), but I'd only suggest doing that after the code is less cumbersome and buggy.
     
     As I've noted elsewhere, this entire project was wrong-headed: you added this to encourage new editors, but the problem is not difficulty or disinterest in Wikicode but aggressive page-owners; nooB-biters; and non-obvious templates. The VE is irrelevant to any of that & giving new users a buggy experience on top of everything else isn't going to help your cause. — LlywelynII 01:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
176. Opt-in I would not have been able to become an editor if VE was being used when I joined WP in 2006. I am elderly with little computer experience and I learned how to edit by looking at the way that others managed to do it. In fact, that's still how I do it. Gandydancer (talk) 01:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
177. Opt-in like any buggy, slow test version aiming at replacing stable, fast software. Love the idea, though. hgilbert (talk) 01:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
178. opt in, definitely, always for betasNickholbrook (talk) 01:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
179. Opt-in Is the logical setting with a beta version.--Mariordo (talk)
180. Opt-in. Definitely Girona7 (talk) 02:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
181. Opt-in - I'm a little conflicted...I'm not sure I would have discovered the VE for a while if it had not been auto-enabled for me. It's great but the increased potential for vandalism and/or accidental edits concerns me... Perhaps if it were opt-in, but when a user attempts to edit a page, there's a big info box informing them about this cool new VE that's in beta that they can try? Seems like a decent compromise to me... Jaardon (talk) 02:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
182. It's not ready for the public. -- ^t numbermaniac ^c 02:15, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
183. Opt-in always for new code. Malke 2010 (talk) 02:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
184. Opt-in, until it is out of beta. ★Saurabh P.  |  ☎ talk 02:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
185. Opt-in! Let the new users learn and adjust to it until they learn. RafaelPPascual (talk) 02:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
186. Opt-in I wondered what it was when I first saw it, and couldn't figure it out. I just go edit source and keep working. A new editor likely won't understand it without some tutorial first, which kind of defeats the purpose. Oaktree b (talk) 02:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
187. Opt-in. I will switch my vote the first time that an opt-out voter creates a single policy-compliant biography of a living person using only the Visual Editor. --j⚛e decker^talk 02:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     This smells like a fun challenge... Legoktm (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

188. Opt-in always for beta code. The new editor simply isn't ready for prime-time use. Signalizing (talk) 02:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
189. Opt-in This is not ready for wide release. I regularly train new Wikipedians and features of the Visual Editor are not instinctive for new users to use. Besides being difficult to use, the Visual Editor runs slowly and does not have reference features which I would expect it to have. I regret that it was rolled out in Beta version and I question why this was even done. I also do not find it convenient for me to use as an experienced editor. Blue Rasberry (talk) 02:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
190. Opt-in during beta. i agree with what Bluerasberry said above. Neurosciency (talk) 02:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
191. Opt-in No one should ever have to opt-out of something like this...even after beta. Personally, from what I've seen of it, I think VE is a colossal waste of time. Seriously, this is what my donation goes to?--ColonelHenry (talk) 02:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
192. Opt–in until it is fully developed. AutomaticStrikeout  ?  03:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
193. Opt–in - Beta software should NEVER be the default. Rock4arolla (talk) 03:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
194. Opt-in--MichaelMaggs (talk) 03:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
195. Opt-in – The Visual Editor is only functional on a few browsers, and even then almost no earlier versions are supported. That is just unfair to people with older broswers who are expecting it to work! In addition, the whole point of the Visual Editor is to attract people with little to no knowledge of technology. And the little old guy who is still using Windows 4 is in that targeted demographic of people we still need to draw to the site, but he'll just get frustrated when it doesn't even load. My proposal is that we add a box of text just above the edit box of an new/unconfirmed user that directly points them to the associated Preferences section, but also informs them that it is still experimental (avoiding scaring them off with the word 'beta' is important). The box would appear until they were autoconfirmed, and by then they should be able to find it by themselves. Thanks, Nick1372 (talk) 03:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
196. Opt-in per User:Adjwilley. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
197. I agree with Kww: Beta software should always be opt-in. — Pseudonymous Rex (talk) 05:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
198. Jclemens (talk) 05:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
199. Opt-in Its useful for correcting things like minor typos, but difficult to use for making articles from scratch, with tables and references etc.Apwoolrich (talk) 06:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
200. Opt-in Beta software should always be opt-in. Leujohn ^{(talk, stalk me?)} 07:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)+
201. Opt-in Tried it, disabled it. Even were it bug-free I think it will encourage vandals and careless editors. Dave.Dunford (talk) 09:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     Indeed VE has been used for hack edits, and another danger is hiding the template structures where new editors do not see how articles follow special styles, or hiding internal warnings: "<--do not change this date; see talk-page-->". When I first edited WP pages, I wanted to rewrite them for my style until I realized thousands of pages followed wp:MOS styles. VE encourages rampant rewrites by new editors, with no warnings, just inviting trouble, but we did not forsee that massive problem. Instead of VE, we need a smart text editor, not a visual editor, but a talking editor. -Wikid77 11:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

202. Opt-in with a big, red warning that it is beta software and that it can make garbled edits. -- cyclopia^speak! 10:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
203. Opt-in, at the very least during the beta period. Excirial ^{(Contact me,Contribs)} 11:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
204. Faizan 13:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
205. Opt-in For now anyway. Too many bugs, plain and simple. — MusikAnimal ^talk 14:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
206. Opt-in Redalert2fan (talk) 14:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
207. Opt-in, if not disabled entirely and tested on a smaller site. It just doesn't work properly. Macktheknifeau (talk) 14:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
208. Opt-in. There's no way that this software should be enabled by default. — Richard BB 14:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
209. "Opt-in" until it is out of Beta. -- Safety Cap (talk) 14:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
210. Opt-in forever. The visual editor has numerous inherent flaws that make it unsuitable for the default view; it hides both comments and the underlying structure of the page. When dealing with smaller "easy" edits it has no advantage over editing plain text, and as soon as complicated formatting is introduced the visual editor becomes hopelessly complex -- its buttons and options are no more intuitive than the code is. It's also impossible to easily see how something was done by viewing its source, making it much much harder for new users to learn how something was done (that is, you can't tell which buttons on the visual editor you need to push to produce something by looking at how it was done elsewhere!) Users who learn how to edit Wikipedia via the visual editor are setting themselves up for long-term frustration that can only ultimately decrease editor retention, so it's important to never make the visual editor the default. --Aquillion (talk) 15:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
211. Opt- in until it is out of Beta. And it must stay in Beta until it is significantly more useable. nancy 15:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
212. Opt-in-Reasons: beta version, slow, difficulty in editing tables.
213. Opt-in. --Jasca Ducato (talk) 15:08, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
214. Opt-in Visual Editor makes it too easy for vandalism. Njaohnt (talk) 15:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
215. Opt-in -beta version, too slow, difficulty in editing tables R!j!n (talk) 15:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
216. Opt-in - shouldn't default to using a beta version of something, when a stable version exists. davidprior ^t/_c 15:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
217. Opt-in- It is still quite "wonky"; it could end disastrously for those who don't know how to use it. Perhaps later down the road, but certainly not now. It is not difficult to become autoconfirmed. UncappingCone64 (talk) 15:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
218. Opt-in while the software is in development and until it's much more stable and usable. ElKevbo (talk) 15:25, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
219. Opt-in while the software is in development and until it's much more stable and usable.Jytdog (talk) 15:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
220. Opt-in to avoid vandalism, both intentional and unintentional. It is very pleasant to use though, especially for small edits like grammatical error.--Rochelimit (talk) 15:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
221. Opt-in - right now not stable enough --TheMostAmazingTechnik (talk) 16:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
222. Opt-in, definitely. Users Seraphimblade, Manxruler, LlywelynII and many others have said it very well. Blue Elf (talk) 16:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
223. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 16:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
224. Opt-in, needs more work. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
225. Opt-in Wikipedia is fundamentally a text culture. That's what makes the collaboration model possible. I don't think it's the markup syntax that puts new users off. I think it's disorientation within the hailstorm of unfamiliar symbols. What the visual editor offers is better orientation. You can see the pictures and breaks. You know where you are. Great. Having achieved that, edits are best made directly on the underlying syntax, but we don't need to force the issue. I would have gone more in the direction of Mylyn's task filter from Eclipse. The user could use the visual editor to select the scope of what they wish to edit, then switch to the underlying text representation with the undesired scope in dim letters, and which resists accidental modification. I'm generally opposed to default opt-in to a derivative culture. (It won't cease to be derivative until diff/merge/conflict resolution are equally visual.) Another way to do this would to be have two buttons: revise as well as edit. Revise could go by default to the visual editor, and commend itself for small changes. Edit would remain as always. Or the first time a new user clicks "edit" they could be prompted on whether they would prefer to make "revise" the default instead. There are many ways to skin this cat. I've used a personal wiki for all my own projects since about 1.6, logging ten of thousands of total edits. When I go to add a citation to an article on Wikipedia, I still suffer a moment of disorientation. The markup is so dense in places. The Mylyn trick would work a treat for me (preselect the ROI from a visual presentation and then have the edit box render regions to edit in bold and non-bold for semi protected, to override if you insist). In my view, this would have been a better compromise between aiding newcomers without shifting people into a derivative culture. — MaxEnt 16:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
227. Opt-in, it's still in beta, people may have become used to editing source only on other wikis, and it's confusing to see two different "edit" options. JIP | Talk 16:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
228. Opt-in. It is still in beta, first of all. Second of all, it should be presented as a direct choice to the user. Do they want markup or VE? The user should make the choice at account creation, not WMF. RGloucester (talk) 17:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
229. Opt-in. While it's clear from above that this discussion is in dire need of input from people with expertise in software development, I still think users should be able to opt-in to sweeping UX changes. No software feature is ever "finished"; it's simply deemed acceptable enough to release. This feature is not that great—running a simply set of heuristics on it reveals many fundamental UX problems. We don't want this to be people's default experience. --Laser brain (talk) 17:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
230. Opt-in. VisualEditor still shows a lot of room for improvement, so the editor should have a positive choice to make, at least for now. Kudu ^~I/O~ 17:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
231. Support Lfstevens (talk) 17:25, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
232. Opt-in. Until it's out of beta. Will someone close this already? Snowball! I find it's rarely useable for my edits, and believe the same applies to new users. Once the major bugs folks mention most are fixed, it should be the default. --Elvey (talk) 17:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
233. Opt-in. Editors should understand how the sausage is made before they start garnishing it. bd2412 T 17:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
234. Opt-in for the time being. In six months when the bugs have been ironed out and the most intricate aspects of template syntax can be reliably edited with VE, we can talk.Tazerdadog (talk) 17:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
235. Opt-in - On paper, the concept of the VE is of course sound, but in practice, as we know to our despair, it's just a no-go for the time being. Per Rochelimit above -- the Visual Editor should be opt-in to prevent vandalism of both an intentional and unintentional nature. Ronan McGurrin (talk) 18:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
236. Opt-in. I creatively suggest that VE be the manner an IP uses to edit; it will definitely slow down the IPs here to vandalize, and it gives us a new approach to suggesting benefits for an IP to create an account. :) John Cline (talk) 18:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
237. Opt-in. --Olsi (talk) 18:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
238. Always Opt-in. Even if VE was somehow "fixed," there simply isn't any reason for it to be used by default. Gnutronium 18:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
239. Opt-in. No doubt!--Soul Train (talk) 18:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
240. Opt-in I believe it is more confusing and intimidating then editing source code. Rejectwater (talk) 18:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
241. Optin With a full explanation of all the problems they are likely to suffer if they do opt in. Arjayay (talk) 18:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
242. Opt-in: It's a good idea, but when I try to use it, it's slow or just does not work; also, editing image captions seems very complex. Perhaps I'm just an old fuddy-duddy trapped in the past, but I do prefer the old system.  Giano  18:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
243. Opt-in for now Definitely opt-in for now, until it's further refined with bugs virtually non-existent, and features (such as citation inputs) increased Tom W (talk) 18:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
244. Opt-in This editor looks like it could be a great help to inexperienced editors, but at the moment, it's so slow and buggy that it's nearly impossible to use. Once most of the bugs and errors have been addressed, I will probably re-consider my choice. George Sorby 19:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
245. Opt-in VisualEditor, in its present state and probably for several months, will scare away new editors and damage Wikipedia articles. This shouldn't have been rolled in its slow and buggy condition just so some mid-level manager could claim that he got his project done on time. Chris the speller ^yack 19:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
246. Opt-in This was incredibly confusing to me, both as a new user (registred just yesterday) and an informatician. Kebabipita (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     Yes, the VisualEditor was forced onto all users despite numerous warnings from experienced users and software experts about the many risks and potential to confuse or alienate new users with all the known problems in VE, long before it was released across the English Wikipedia. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

247. Opt-in. I don't even like it, but making it a default is even worse. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
248. Opt-in At least until it's more stable. elmindreda (talk) 21:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
249. Opt-in. It was absolutely unusable when I (inadvertently) tried it with my alternate account on my phone. But features still in beta should never be turned on by default. Rivertorch (talk) 21:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Opt-out

1. I have a concern that the options "Opt-in" and "Opt-out" are deceptively simple. There are many possible gradations. The biggest issue with "Opt-in" is that new users will have very little chance to learn about it. If we move to dial back and slow down on implementation, we need to also ensure a steady flow of new users who are informed of what is going on and who are willing to try it and give feedback. What I prefer to see is that the VE is offered to new users along with an easy option for them to opt-out if they want.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Given how buggy VE is right now, do you really want a newcomer's first experience with Wiki to center around it? I don't see that as being optimal. Perhaps later, once VE becomes more stable and can handle basic functions that would be an option. Intothatdarkness 17:03, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   I would expect there would be a Sitenotice telling people how to turn it back on as part of any change. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 18:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   For what its worth I think at some point in the future VE will be fit to be released to all users by default. But that day isn't now. Kumioko (talk) 19:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   I agree. But the test for it being opt-out should be "can an editor use VE to reliably generate error-free content for the encylopedia?" As long as the answer is "no," it should NEVER be automatically opt-in. Intothatdarkness 15:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

   I do not think this is a valid criteria to judge success of VE. Certainly, the wikitext editor causes editors to generate a different set of errors. Editors, especially new ones, using the text editor are more likely to add big blocks of un-wikified text, introduce invalid syntax, mess up the display of tables or templates in articles, avoid creating links, fail to add citations, etc... Any editing mechanism will always cause some number of errors on its own and will encourage users to make a far greater number of errors through its use. To me, the question is whether an editor, especially a new or casual editor, using VE is, on average, able to be more useful than one using the wikitext editor. Demanding "error-free content" is an unreasonable standard that can't be met by any editor and certainly isn't met by the current default. Zachlipton (talk) 23:17, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

   This seems downright cruel given WP's supposed focus on editor retention/recruitment. Would anyone go to Disneyland if all they could ride was It's A Small World, which was broken and on fire? Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:57, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

2. Ask the new editors it was just tested on what they think, and go by what they say. Learning Wiki syntax is no big deal to the people who have done it, but who knows how many votes were lost in that learning curve? Wnt (talk) 19:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   We've had a few users in wikipedia-en-help be just as confused by VE as they were by the source editor. And note that pretty much anyone coming into that channel who isn't a helper is the greenest of users. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 19:53, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   I think that for many people asking "opt-in" is a temporary decision, until bugs are fixed and major missing features are done. The problem is that new editors are mostly unaware of the problems currently caused by VE (filter 550, ...). --NicoV ^{(Talk on frwiki)} 20:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Why not fix the bugs, then ask new editors what they think about it? Sure, wikitext can be intimidating, but so are scary message boxes. I am concerned that people new to Wikipedia who would otherwise become enthusiastic contributors are being needlessly scared away by the crashes, freeze-ups and JavaScript warnings. 28bytes (talk) 21:41, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   I agree. I tried the VE but could only produce garbage except for some extremely simple edits. I would stop editing in Wikipedia if I had only the option if VE were my only option. I can't really remember my first Wikipedia editing, but I can't believe it was as catastrophic as my attempts with VE. As for opting-out: some new editors probably would not understand what the option means and/or entails and others would nto see it regardless of how in-your-face we might make it. So, first fix it up some more and then make it an opt-in with easy reversal (the way it is now seems okeh to me but I don't know if it is clear to a new editor). Then down the road a year or so we can re-think things. Kdammers (talk) 04:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

3. The VE is easier to use and understand for new users IMO. It will provide them more of an incentive to begin editing. So, it should be opt-out. Even with its bugs, I think news users would make fewer mistakes with VE than with the text editor. So, it should be opt-out only. As for bugginess, the VE is improving day by day and it would gradually become less and less of a concern.OrangesRyellow (talk) 15:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
4. Opt-out - I think it's very helpful to anonymous and new user editors to have this VE tool, and that those who are contributing anonymously have it, so why would you have to hit a switch to turn it back on again just because you decide to create an account? (I should note that in question 2, I did answer that I think IP users should have access to the VE beta). While its contributing power is simple at the moment, it increases accessibility for new users who aren't so experienced with HTML/CSS and our markup, and though knowledge of that is needed to make great pages at this moment in time, new users don't necessarily have to be perfect contributors right off the bat. That's why we were all called "new" at this at some point, and had to learn the standards of Wikipedia and how to navigate its tools. Jumping right into editing the source code can be daunting to new users, even for simple addition of text, because there's code everywhere and the unexperienced won't want to mess something up, so they may find VE as a useful tool, and making it available right off the bat will help make it accessible. An opt-out switch ought to help when one grows tired of it, though, or has gained enough experience or knowledge to start working with the code directly. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 18:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
5. Opt-out - the system is designed for new users, and is arguably more newbie-friendly than the old system. It makes little sense to make it opt-in, which would restrict it to experienced editors only (that is, those experienced enough to work out how to alter their preferences). Robofish (talk) 22:25, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
6. Opt-out. VE is a huge step in the right direction, and it does work OK for most simple edits. To my mind it's not quite ready for prime time yet, but perhaps, as Jimbo says, it can be offered to new editors with an explanation that it is not yet in perfect shape. Maybe in a few months it will be much better. Invertzoo (talk) 22:46, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
7. Opt-out I did not expect to be saying this, but my experience in teaching half a dozen relatively new users this week, is that they find the VE easier and more encouraging. This even applied to someone with much greater general computer knowledge than my own, including an excellent knowledge of html, but little experience with the WP conventions, Personally, I still don't use it, except once or twice a day to keep in touch with improvements, because I make fewer errors with what I find most familiar. On WP, it's the WP syntax--and all my keyboard macros & other personal editing gimmicks are designed for it. DGG ( talk ) 22:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
8. Opt-out - The wikipedia editing community is slowly dying out, and we must improve. We need to stop shutting down all the new ideas and attempts to improve the community editing tools and quality control measures, and to disable a feature that has consumed massive resources of the Foundation for the exact population that the feature was designed for is absurd and counter productive, and may prove fatal to the future growth of the encyclopedia. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:02, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

   •Opt-out - VisualEditor is kind of hard to get to use at first, especially if you were editing Wikipedia long before the change, as is doubtless the case with many newly created accounts. For this reason, there should be a guided tour explaining how to use it for new users. The first thing that should pop up if you create an account should be "would you like to enable VisualEditor"? Jinkinson (talk) 23:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

   I agree, but I think this means you are actually supporting Opt in. Opt out would mean you don't ask at all, just give it to them willy-nilly. Since people are only going to look at the number totals, I've commented out your #.  — LlywelynII 02:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

9. Perfunctory opt-out !vote I'm aware this !vote will probably do little to stem the tide of !votes to the contrary, but I feel compelled to stand on principle. VE is a good thing, and if you don't like it, it's trivially easy to not use it. Don't get me wrong, I know it's buggy, and I think the Foundation has made some serious mistakes here, but disabling it by default would be, in my opinion, tantamount to the collective suicide of this wiki.

   Once the inevitable happens, and someone closes this RFC with a consensus to disable, I very much hope the WMF vetoes the decision for our own good. Wikipedia is the sum of all human knowledge, not the sum of the knowledge of people who are good at wiki markup.

   Like Jimbo, I think a more convenient opt-out is the solution. Near the "edit" and "edit source" tabs, we should have something similar to the little interface language option that now shows up in the languages bar. — PinkAmpers&^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 23:14, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

   a) It's not trivially easy. It was a huge pain, although hopefully so many people are opting out that they've fixed it.
   b) VE was so buggy it randomly popped up for a while even after I had disabled it.
   c) Dial down the drama. Some loss of editors is inevitable as the major pages are filled in: more people are interested in talking about the Civil War than the farmer who founded Bumblepodunk, North Carolina, (pop. 7) in 1904 and that's fine and a side-product of Wikipedia's success, not failure. More to the point, the problem for new editors is not that plaintext is hard: literally nothing is or could be easier. It's that Wiki has sometimes major problems with page ownership; the pages have become dependent on non-obviously named templates; and there's too much nooB-biting going on. None of that is changed in the least by giving them buggy software and (even years from now when the software isn't buggy) plaintext will still be faster and less buggy than any other alternative.
   d) Your idea that we should have something forced down our throats (there's more than 10:1 opposition here - we're not talking about snobbish elite users) for our own good because (by your account) new editors are too stupid to use plaintext editing and old editors are too rude to format it properly for them is actually a textbook example of the problem in (c). If "Jimbo" and "WMF" go along with you in the face of this opposition, it will accelerate, not check, Wikipedia's problems.
   e) Two edit tabs (including a "source code") are more (not less) intimidating. Give them the option at sign up (i.e., opt in); give them the ability to change it in their preferences; and we're done. — LlywelynII 02:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

   Responding only to your first point (I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the rest): It's trivially easy to press the "edit source" button instead of the "edit" button. You don't need to disable it to not use it; I mostly use wikitext myself (like you, I find it faster usually). — PinkAmpers&^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 03:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

10. Definitely Opt-out However the VisualEditor may be slow or have bugs, it is still much better for new editor than classic wikimarkup, which is very strange for most new editors. And enabling it for large number of users is the only way to quickly identify bugs and fix them. The whole purpose of VisualEditor is to make editing easy for new editors and keep them. If we do not enable it for them, what is then the point of the whole thing? They will run away when they see the markup before they realize they can opt-in for something else. Vanjagenije (talk) 23:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    How can plaintext be stranger than anything? Just don't be an ass to the people who don't know the exact proper style and there's no problem.
    
    But it's not really about style: it's about page owners refusing to let in opposing edits and that will continue regardless of whether they come in VE or markup. — LlywelynII 02:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

11. Opt-out I understand that a large number of power-users are upset by the visual editor, but seriously, for new editors, it is much easier to use than WikiText, and WikiText always exists asa backup. Also, I think that the right response to the visual editor bugs is not to disable the editor, but to fix the bugs, and that can be done in the quickest way by enable the visual editor by default.–Jérôme (talk) 23:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    I think 180+ users v. 18 shows the exact opposite: the power users prefer (to force others to use) the visual editor because they look down on nooBs. The real editors just want to get things done without buggy beta software and have no problem learning to put brackets around things. The growth in users will slow down as major pages are filled up; to the extent there are solvable problems, it has to do with nooB-biting and over-use of templates and styles, not "difficulty" in using plaintext wikimarkup. It seems to be only the power users who feel otherwise and forced this on all of the rest of us "for our own good". — LlywelynII 02:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    If you seriously think that editor decline is simply a result of the big topics being "filled up", I think your misunderstandings are far broader than those pertaining to the VE. Consider that the lunch article is 17kB. Or consider how short and out-of-date the New York Times Magazine article is. Not a day goes by, pretty much, that I don't see a horribly-written article on a very important topic. You say "growth will slow down"... The growth slowed down a long time ago; and it's been negative for quite some time. The editor population is in decline. I find your attempt to rationalize this to be greatly indicative of the "collective suicide of this wiki" point that I made earlier. — PublicAmpers&^{(main account • talk • block)} 17:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

12. Opt-out If we want to encourage more editors to join, we need to see things from their perspective. Many people know little to nothing about programming, and even though wiki language is fairly simple, the visual editor has little to no learning curve. I think the perspective of some of the editors above is a little skewed because they have been editing for a while and understand the wiki language. But for new users coming in, the visual editor allows them to just start writing about whatever subject they know, without having to learn any kind of programming, thus, IMO, opening up wikipedia to a much larger audience. Strong Opt-Out --Gloriousglib (talk) 00:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Except: if they are just writing, they can already "just write" text and doing it in wikimarkup will always the be faster and less buggy way to do that. This is a terrible solution to a non-problem. The problem is not with code but with the overuse of non-obvious templates, noob-biting, and page owners making the experience unpleasant. — LlywelynII 02:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

13. Many of the concerns I see about making it opt-out have to do with the "bugginess" of the VE at the moment. Once that all gets squared away, I think it would be great to make it opt-out only. VE is going to be great for users who don't understand wikimarkup. I seriously think this is a step in the right direction and will bring new editors on board. If we don't make it opt-out, we should at least make it clear to users that VE is available for ease of use; however, at that time, we might have already lost prospective editors in confusion. MJ94 (talk) 00:44, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
14. Opt-out So far, my experience with the VisualEditor has been great. I've seen some bugs (I've reported two bugs myself), but I don't think these bugs are important enough to make users use a editor they won't figure out how to use instead of using an editor that they'll manage to use even if it has some bugs. Furthermore, the bugs will get fixed over time, and I'm sure the situation will have improved already by the time this RFC is over and VisualEditor is out of beta. -- Rastus Vernon (talk) 01:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
15. Opt-out The flaws that the VE admittedly still has are only really noticeable if one is used to the source editor - which new users are, in most cases, not.

Besides, hiding the option to activate a newbie-friendly system in a place few newbies would ever look at (the preferences) seems rather silly. Haltendehand (talk) 20:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

1. Opt-out Have asked a few non-technophile (but computer-literate) never-WP-editors to try each option, and they consistently found the source editor intimidating and frustrating (with no help from me either way). More importantly in this context, I think the RFC is poorly formed, because it's really not just a question of opt in/out but how these are presented. How would a newbie know what it means for the VE to be "in development"? Does that mean their work will be lost 20% of the time, that it will be corrupted, or that they'll be be blamed for vandalism? Without fully specifying the options, this RFC result will be based entirely on experienced users' personal experience with the CE/VE, its products, and other intangibles. -- Scray (talk) 01:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
2. Weak-Medium Opt-in: Though the new program actually is terrible (so much that I never use it) it should be available for newbies and anons. Why? First, VE is supposed to make editing easier, for new users. The older editors know how to deal with MediaWiki, so it could be said that VE isn't necessary for older guys. However, MediaWiki is in fact hard for the newbies, and VE overcomes it. Yes, it's very buggish-but if VE takes care of all the bugs ten years later, are we just going to sit around doing nothing to cure the difficulties of MediaWiki for ten years, while the VE team uses another ten year's worth of money? Better do it now. Besides, having more VE people is good for curing bugs, because more bugs are discovered in a short amount of time. To cure a problem it's better to cure it fast instead of excessive experimentation. It seems that the opt-in side is winning, and I pity the fact that WPans are blind to the retention problem (remember, wiki=community) and refuses to cure the problem as quickly as possible.

   Thanks, --Seonookim (What I've done so far) (I'm busy here) (Tell me your requests) 02:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

3. Opt-out until the new user if familiar with it.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 12:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
4. Opt-out. I am utterly confused by the wording of this "simple" question. I understand my vote to mean "upon new account creation, the user should be displayed the button to use the visual editor next to button to use the source editor if they did not go to their preferences and changed that explicitly". But seriously, this question is framed to sound "a new editor is forced to use the VE". Was the phrasing of the question discussed anywhere, or is this one of these RFCs where a smart person just wrote it down in a way so that the result is kinda predictable? --denny vrandečić (talk) 15:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
5. Opt-out if and only if the edit button is marked as experimental. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:15, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
6. Opt-out --Minihaa (talk) 15:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
7. Opt-out — I think part of the concept behind the VE is to attract editors who might be put off by wiki code. Wikia has a fantastic VE, and I don't see why our VE can't be as good as theirs — if not better. You work over there, Jimbo. What say you? — Confession0791 ^talk 15:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
8. Opt-out — VisualEditor is in a tight spot. It has to support two unique syntaxes that a majority of people don't know or understand - HTML and wikitext. It then has to interpret and round-trip (with the help of Parsoid) that information. All while supporting every permutation of use in-between. The present and future of web technology, the big things like Wikipedia that change the world, are in making it easier, more consistent, approachable for everyone to be involved. Sure, it's not perfect. Sure, it doesn't support every complex function you use, but it's moving us in the right direction.

   Most people who want to add and edit information just want to type into a box. That's what VE does for the majority of folks. To put a "back out of progress now" button slows down our collective progress and creates a greater fissure between editors who view themselves as 'us vs. them' in regard to new contributors. I know this is blasphemy to suggest, but doing away with wikitext entirely, while difficult and time consuming, is a better long-term solution that trying to support it and render proper HTML. VE is a step toward the elimination of an already obscure syntax. I'm all for it. Ckoerner (talk) 16:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

   • That would work... if the code and process the VE used was anything like HTML; it's not. Wikipedia was built on that "obscure syntax"; and it's not broken, so why "fix" it by canning it? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
9. Opt-out. It's for them, after all. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
10. Opt-out It can be very useful for newbies. But the edit tab for it should be renamed to "Visual editor"; and the source editor be made as the default editor..···Vanischenu^「m/_Talk」 17:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
11. --Tobias1984 (talk) 17:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
12. Opt-out It ought to be the standard. We should do everything we can to encourage new editors. I nearly didn't bother becoming an editor, because it looked so complicated. I would have edited more readily when I was younger (a teenager) had this been possible. EdwardRussell (talk) 17:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
13. Opt-out. — I see that VE was a great thing, and I agreed with people that it will hold the future of editing page. I'm not skilled enough for these things, but VE was easier to use than the 'edit source', right? Well, new account doesn't mean newcomer on WP, even if someone is new on WP, it doesn't mean that he/she definitely didn't know about this kind of editing. I also had a problem in editing table (maybe I hadn't learn something), but it should not makes me wanna back to 'edit-source-only' era. By now, I still wanted the preference be set to enable VE, while waiting some issues to be solved. That will be soon after it. — Vic2908 (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
14. Opt-out — Making VE default ensures enough users that the users themselves will fix the bugs. I also don't believe VE is as non-functional as some of the opt-in votes imply. It seems very functional for basic edits and ideal for new users. -Thomas Craven (talk) 17:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
15. Alright, so this proposal will most likely not be successful, so I might as well post my support here w/o anyone blaming me. I strongly support this editor, as this is just the right direction to go to. I mean, let's face it, sure, you can learn wiki syntax, matter of fact you can also learn how to program (complex) templates or even learn to write the MediaWiki software. However, the problem with this is that the current wiki syntax asks new, not tech-savvy users of making a huge commitment to the project which at the point of joining they likely are not (yet) willing to do. Asking new users to learn this syntax is like asking an ordinary user to program non-trivial templates. Think of people like your grandparents: They have a huge knowledge and more than enough time with which they could be great contributors to this site, but then again they wouldn't learn this syntax anymore. However, when editing Wikipedia is as easy as editing Word documents, they sure could be convinced to give it a try. But then again, it's not only for the new users, it's also a great tool for active or long-term users. You can easily make simple drive-by edits, copy-editing is done on the fly and editing in general is a whole lat faster. Ok, apparently the tool still has its weaknesses, but then there'll other weaknesses when you implement it later. Yes, it will be chaotic and there'll be a huge lot of problems in the beginning, but heck, wiki projects have survived many other changes before and will continue to do so and this one is so much for the better that I wouldn't want to wait much longer. --The Evil IP address (talk) 18:15, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
16. It's unbelievably easier to teach new editors to make edits using the VE. It should be on by default. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
17. Opt-out but make the links "[edit] [visual editor]" in that order and both should be visible. I disabled the VE for myself as as I hated that I needed to hover to get the wikitext editor. I kept getting VE by accident and cancelling out. Many of my edits involve delicate adjustments of wikitext. Had the links been [edit] [visual editor] I would have left VE enabled and would use it those times when I was comfortable with that the underlying wikitext would be good. I love that the VE is finally here even though it's still in beta. One of the criticisms of mediawiki I'd heard from friends that I suggested it to was they wanted WYSIWYG and not to learn yet another markup language. Thus I'd love to see the VE available by default but that both editors be available without needing to do any extra work such as hovering. --Marc Kupper|talk 18:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
18. Opt-out - makes things less intimidating for new users :) Srijay K - TechFilmer 20:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
19. Opt-out, this conversation is largely moot. All I'm seeing is the standard Wikipedian reaction to anything new and shiny: "it's different and I hate it!" Why should the standing editing community, that's been raised on plain-text editing in what is essentially a notepad editor, have any say over the huge investment the Wikimedia Foundation has put into making this website finally usable? I see a power elite fearing for its selfhood, not good willed volunteers. Blurpeace 20:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I think you might have a different viewpoint on the word "usable". It is difficult to edit tables and templates with the editor, as well as many other clunky things (random nowiki tags, metadata messes, etc.). Why should the standing editing community have a say about editing the site? Well, that question seems to answer itself. Very few people are advocating that VE should go away completely. I think we're more concerned about functionality and forcing it on people (in its current and planned state(s)). Your post seems to lambast others while ignoring broader questions and implications. Killiondude (talk) 21:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

20. Opt-out Someone has to test this new toy extensively. Why not en-wp (where I do not have to answer questions by newbies) first? -- Rillke (talk) 21:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of new account default state

• In response to Jimbo's comment, I wonder if on registering new users should be given an explicit choice, perhaps with wording along the lines of (although less verbose than)

"Wikipedia is currently developing a new VisualEditor that is intended to be more user friendly than the existing ("source") editor. To help beta test this new editor, you are invited to "opt in" to using it for some or all of your edits. If you choose to take part in the test you will get the choice to use the new VisualEditor or the classic source editor for your edits to Wikipedia articles, if you choose not to you will only be able to use the source editor. Although the VisualEditor is more like other software you are likely to be familiar with such as Microsoft Word or Wordpress than the source editor, it is not finished yet and some edits using it may not be possible or may break through no fault of your own. The source editor is less intuitive, but it is available for all edits and is significantly more reliable. You change your mind and opt in or out at any time by changing a setting in your preferences. [Yes, I would like to opt-in to beta testing the new VisualEditor] [No, I only want to use the classic source editor]".

inserted note: excellent - except you could edit this down 70% as you said! Billyshiverstick (talk) 23:19, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I should note that I have no idea whether the software can support this. Thryduulf (talk) 12:00, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• • Furthermore, the average newbie would have absolutely no idea how to look for problems, search Bugzilla/VPT to see whether they have been reported and report them. MER-C 12:50, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I support this proposal to make it a choice on registration. The default radio button should be set to the old editor. — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 01:22, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The choice could be less verbose: How about two check boxes with:

    Please choose your editing experience:

    ☑ See and edit the source code of the page directly, or

    ☐ Edit the words directly on the page (still under development).

    You always change this by editing your preferences.

    This uses simple newbie language (no VisualEditor, opt in, etc.) while still offering a choice with the warning that VE will be buggy. ~Adjwilley (talk) 04:10, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
    • That is much better wording, and a good example of why you should not let me write interfaces. Thryduulf (talk) 08:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
      • I think this is a great idea. Brambleclawx 15:41, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I'd like to suggest inviting users to try VE once they are autoconfirmed, rather than an opt-in upon registration. I think it makes sense to give them a few days and a dozen-plus edits in source mode so that they have a basis for comparison. The first time one logs in after being autoconfirmed, they get a message saying: "WP would like to invite you to try our new Visual Editor! Click here to learn more about the tool, it's advantages and limitations, and how to start using it." To my way of thinking, this approach makes more sense than offering brand new users an option upon registration when they probably don't have any idea what's what. -Wine Guy~Talk 19:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• German WP poll shows 98% of 465 for Opt-In: It should be noted, here, that the German Wikipedia ran a poll on 27 July 2013, and within 2 days the poll closed, when 458 users (98.49% of 465) responded at Opt-In-only, while 7 users supported VE as Standard for logged-in usernames. The 458 opinions (in German) are: "de:WP:Umfragen/VisualEditor_Opt-in#VE vorerst nur als Opt-in (wie vorher)" ["VE only as Opt-in (as before)"]. A Bugzilla request (Template:Bugzilla) was accepted by the WMF VE-team to set VE as only Opt-in for German WP. Some of the comments in the poll were similar to here: "Bitte keine Beta-Testversion, sondern ein fertiges Produkt" ("Please not a Beta-test version, instead a finished product"). Meanwhile, some users did not realize VE would crater on the slightest one-word edit-conflict, and wished to use VE for talk-pages: "Und hier auf den Diskussionsseiten wäre der VisualEditor auch nicht schlecht!" ("And here on the talk-page, the VisualEditor would be also not bad!"). There are over 520 various opinions in that dewiki poll, where some imagined that VE was released to dewiki because it would be functional software typical of a large corporation. -Wikid77 (talk) 05:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm sure the large number of swift responses to their poll was because they quickly notified all the editors about it. Thus far, it seems like there's been markedly little notifying here in English Wikipedia. Since this is such a huge change that affects the entire Wiki, doesn't it deserve a watchlist notice? Silverseren^C 09:25, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Already done by Kww, and showing up on my watchlist right now:- There is an ongoing RFC(linked) as to whether the Visual editor should be enabled for new users and anonymous editors. Begoon ^talk 09:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Not sure watchlist notices are that good. I, for one, had never noticed they even existed until I was told one was happening and looked. A Site notice would be better. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 09:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that - watchlist notices are pretty unobtrusive. Begoon ^talk 09:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

If we're going just-watchlist-notice, could we make it red, or put it in a bright yellow box or something? Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 10:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

On de-WP, these watchlist notices are shown via MediaWiki:Watchlist-summary (see history, also with different background colours) and not via MediaWiki:Watchlist-details as it is the case here. Watchlist-summary normally is much more visible than watchlist-details, but it isn’t shown at all without JavaScript. Without JS, you can always see these watchlist-details and also the WP:Sitenotice, but never the CentralNotice from Meta (perhaps because of language switching) and never the watchlist-summary (I don’t know why this also is a script-based feature, while watchlist-details and also the sitenotice aren’t). I think that there has been so much participation in a very short time firstly because of this very new option which people didn’t know before (it had been switched to opt-out on July 24 on de:) and don’t want ’cause of those many bugs, secondly because of the much more visible watchlist notice since Friday, July 27, 01:16 CEST = 26, 23:16 UTC until Monday, July 29 in the morning 10:05 CEST = 08:05 UTC.

Furthermore, there’s also a „Beteiligen“ template for these messages about on-going polls, votes and elections which has 528 watchers, and also a message in the German Kurier (1.314 watchers). In addition, the problems and bugs have been discussed on de:WD:Kurier (like Signpost discussions) since weeks already and the bugs and questions about VE also on de:Fragen zur Wikipedia (local village pump) since July 24 when VE had been switched to opt-out for all users with accounts, on both pages there have also been links to the poll.

I think that watchlist-summary is the normal MediaWiki message for such watchlist notices, but I wonder, why it isn’t shown for all users. Sitenotice normally is also shown for all users (IPs inclusive), IPs then have to be excluded in the sitenotice, if they shall not take part in the RFC. --Geitost 17:00, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps just wp:SNOW-close RfC within 7 days or post Bugzilla: I guess the wide-ranging announcement would help show the massive landslide decision, sooner, but maybe we could just raise a motion to wp:SNOW-close the projected outcome, or otherwise post a Bugzilla entry to reset the VE menu-options as recommended by this RfC. After VE usage by over 10,000 users, then the results are quite clear. Some decision levels: 74:2 = 97%, 100:2 = 98%, 150:3 = 98%, 200:2 = 99%, 200:4 = 98% (dewiki 458:7 = 98.49%). -Wikid77 12:33, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• I would have no problem with adding a site notice.—Kww(talk) 15:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Remaining neutral for now. I think we should focus on real, actionable improvements that can be made to VisualEditor. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• I don't think we should give a mandatory choice to signing up editors. New editors will not not know what the question is about, and probably just want to get in and edit. If there were no significant problems I would like to see new editors getting this by default. I find it is so slow that it is frustrating. So perhaps a test could be done in javascript, and if it is going to take more than 0.5 seconds for VE to get its act together then forget about it, and use the traditional editor. Some of those developers should be working of a 28K modem to see what patience is required for VE. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:14, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• Are there any solid statistics on the correlation between vandalism and the introduction of VE? --Jackson Peebles (talk) 23:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• I hope everyone who endorses an "opt-out" default preference for VE is participating in the beta testing & providing feedback to the developers.-- llywrch (talk) 01:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• I think the problem is that the goal of VE development and deployment is not well-defined. You have statements which say that editors' choice of VE or wikitext is indifferent to WMF. But then we see statements that WMF wants editors to use VE. That is contradictory and confusing on most understandings of these statements. If the goal is to have editors use VE, then that should be stated clearly and then we can move from that to improving VE. As it is now, it seems that WMF wants editors to use VE, but the developers themselves take the position that it is just as well if editors choose to use wikitext. The result is that sometimes editors come to give feedback about VE concerning how it is easier to do some edits in wikitext, but developers respond that such is a non-issue, because there is no goal to make VE as efficient as wikitext, and editors who want that efficiency should just use wikitext instead. Most people who hear this accept it, but then others, to various extents, get confused because they perceive that there is some push to have VE be used. The result is that some editors, as seen here at this RFC, push back because they would rather not have the less-efficient editor promoted over the more-efficient editor. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 01:25, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Dialog that's presented to new users after they create their accounts

Why not ask new users as soon as they make their accounts?—Love, Kelvinsong talk 22:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

because unless we are exceedingly careful or they are very clever they won't understand. How can someone know if an editor will suit them without trying it? That said, the wording suggested by Adjwilley in the section above does seem vary well conceived, and I'd endorse trying it. DGG ( talk ) 23:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

We could give them an explanation on the difference between the two editors. The dialog could direct them to the sandbox for testing which editor they prefer. Wschlitz 15:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Much better would be to leave it as an option in the preferences, defaulting to off, without asking when creating an account. If new users want it, they can turn it on. If they're not even aware of it, leave it off, per this RfC. That could be reassessed once the software is mature. Modest Genius ^talk 17:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Question 2: When an editor is editing anonymously, should VE be presented by default?

VE should be presented to anonymous users by default

1. While warning them that the software is beta should be required, anonymous editors should have access to VE.—Kww(talk) 01:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Agree. No harm in letting them test it voluntarily. Presenting it and allowing access and choice (not selecting it for them automatically as default), with a clear beta warning, and a clear, easy path to submit bug/experience reports seems fine. Begoon ^talk 06:20, 30 July 2013 (UTC) - Striking, since everyone seems to have interpreted this question differently to me, and my response to the extra question 2.5 will cover this. Begoon ^talk 01:33, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

2. Unless real evidence is offered that anonymous editors are doing harm (more harm than normal!) by trying to use it, it should be available to them. They should be warned that it is beta software, and they should be given a link to get to the wikitext editor. They should also be given more support/explanation on the edit page so they can learn the new editor.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   With respect, beta software shouldn't be forced on users. Beta software should be limited release to a controlled experienced group of users. Beta, by definition means not ready for deployment. Yet deployment is exactly what was done. Kumioko (talk) 19:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   With a similar caveat as Kumi, "available" != "default", which is what's being asked here. I also think that VE should be available for those who prefer it, but don't actually believe that it's easier than plaintext editing or is a solution to any actual problems we're having with editor retention. — LlywelynII 02:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

3. [Maybe]. Ask the users from the first experiment what they think (as above) Wnt (talk) 19:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Added shorter vote to front. — LlywelynII 02:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

4. The VE interface makes editing Wikipedia infinitely more accessible for the average user. People no longer need to sort through complicated code, they can simply type their changes from the same interface where they were reading. As Wikipedia is seeing stagnant numbers of active editors, it is important that we help enable new people to contribute. MakeBelieveMonster (talk) 03:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

   Except this isn't actually true in any way.
   
   Even when VE is free of bugs (which it currently very much isn't), plaintext editing will still be faster and less buggy and always will be. New editors don't need to write any code now: they're just being treated rudely by the old hands and POV-pushing page owners.
   
   Some decline is inevitable as the major pages are filled in: more people are interested giving their opinions on the Civil War than correcting the 2000 U.S. census numbers to the 2010 ones; some people are inevitably going to be told to please be quiet because there are long-standing consensuses on controversial points. Nothing is going to change that and both are a part of Wikipedia's success, not failure.
   
   The way forward towards the highest possible retention is to stop biting nooBs: tell them where and how to start changing consensus (instead of "sit down and shut up") even when you disagree with what they're saying; using (or adding redirects to) more obviously-named templates; bots that correct certain templates like {{ndash}} or {{zh}} to plaintext; and letting them know that plaintext is fine and fellow editors can come through and spruce up the bits they don't understand. None of that involves buggy software, which is a solution looking for a problem rather than the other way around. — LlywelynII 03:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

5. Absolutely yes, per MakeBelieveMonster's above comment. I believe that one thing that holds back new editors from Wikipedia are the complexities with sorting through HTML/CSS and our markup in the source codes for each page. Though the beta does have bugs right now, this visual editor will bring that accessibility to your everyday contributor who may have a lot they can add to the encyclopedia but are daunted by the source codes of the pages. Furthermore, while we're in the beta stage, why discriminate between two classes of users who choose to contribute in different ways? I choose to maintain an account and track my contributions; others I know have chosen to contribute anonymously. I agree with above comments that all users should be given a heads-up that this visual editor is in beta stages at the moment, but they should have as much a right to use the new editing tools as registered users, especially since anonymous users are less likely to be able to sort through the source codes of articles depending on their experience here and with HTML/CSS. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 17:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
6. Yes, same reason as above: it's 'newbie mode'. If they want to edit in full wiki-syntax, they can always create an account, but there's no need to expose anonymous users to that when VisualEditor works pretty well. Robofish (talk) 22:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
7. Yes. Anonymous editors typically make changes to grammar, unless they are registered editors not logged-in. VE is a good default for grammar edits. Meclee (talk) 22:37, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
8. Tentatively and timidly, I say yes. My impression so far is that VE is attracting higher-quality minor edits (spelling, punctuation, poor or inaccurate wording of short phrases). But this may change precipitously when the school year kicks in, and bored students are researching projects. I don't know whether we can measure the ratio of good edits to vandalism/reversions for both source-edits and VE among IPs, but I'd be interested in seeing that data. I hate using VE, and don't, except that I'm trying to become more acclimated and informed through making those kinds of minor edits via VE. And I can see how casual users would be much more inclined to pitch in that way. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
9. I agree with Jimbo and MakeBelieveMonster on this question. Invertzoo (talk) 22:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

   They don't agree with each other. Jimbo said it should be available; MBM said it should be default. MBM is also simply completely wrong in thinking buggy software is "infinitely more accessible" than plaintext. — LlywelynII 02:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

10. A really new user is apt to do better with the VE. Probably many readers want to make small corrections, and if the VE is the default we'd encourage them to do so. It's good enough by now that it's more likely to work than not for small changes. DGG ( talk ) 23:06, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
11. Yes, but perhaps not until the beta-testing is complete. This should encourage casual editing. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
12. Yes, of course. Many new editors try editing as anonymous at first, and then register if they like it. But if we do not enable VisualEditor for them, they will not like the wikimarkup, and would not register at all. That way they would not even know that there is easier way to edit. The whole point of VisualEditor is to keep new editors, but if we do not enable it for anonymous editors, the result will be contrary — less and less new editors would register. Vanjagenije (talk) 23:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
13. Yes, because many anonymous edits are very simple, and the visual editor can sevrer as a springboard to more complex edits.–Jérôme (talk) 00:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
14. Yes, when there's less bugs & it's out of beta. Corn cheese (talk) 00:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
15. VisualEditor should be presented to anonymous users. This does not mean it should be selected as the default or anything else. What it means is that anonymous editors should have a way to access VisualEditor without having to create an account or perform complicated manipulations. Anonymous editors and new users are precisely the people VisualEditor is the most for, so taking it away from anonymous editors and not giving them the possibility to use it would be ridiculous. -- Rastus Vernon (talk) 01:15, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
16. Yes, per Vanjagenije, Rastus Vernon, simplicity and that advanced functions are not easily accessible. A new editor might be intimidated by the markup, while VE allows one to perform minor changes with ease. An IP can easily add a line to a table without having to correctly format the table markup, a task that can confuse experienced editors Due to its bias toward minor edits, VE makes it difficult for a user to insert irrelevant images, change templates, and the like, possibly reducing vandalism that does not involve insertion/deletion/change of words (something easily reverted by the ClueBots and users on Huggle and Twinkle). By effectively limiting rookie vandals to edits under the realm of bots, users could focus more on repeat offenders and extreme cases. Coasterlover1994 02:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    •No. What's the point? It's confusing. Unless the idea is to get them to sign-up to avoid such a horrible edit process, I see no point. Oaktree b (talk) 02:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Commented out # since not actually supporting the point under discussion here. — LlywelynII 02:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

17. Yes I don't actually have any doubt that VE will eventually be easier for most editors. The issue is premature release and, to all appearances, some sort of internal schedule pressure. Fix a small number of serious bugs (the nowiki thing, maybe section editing, severe speed issues at low bandwidth, and the disaster of a method for writing references) and this will be significantly less painful for everyone. But, in the meantime, giving the code a workout is a good idea, and giving even new editors a chance to kick the tires is also useful. --j⚛e decker^talk 02:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
18. Yes: Whether anons can use VE or not does not change their edits, and it is ridiculous to ban user-friendly editors from many of our first editors.--Seonookim (What I've done so far) (I'm busy here) (Tell me your requests) 02:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
19. Yes. Again the question is ambiguously phrased. I understand it to mean that the option to use the visual editor should be presented additionally to the "edit source" option. It is phrased in such a way to sound like it would be the only option available to anonymous users. I deeply dislike the way this RFC is set up. --denny vrandečić (talk) 15:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
20. Yes if and only if it is marked as experimental. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:16, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
21. Yes. It's for newbies after all. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
22. Yes, it should be on by default. At least until somebody presents convincing data that shows that it's doing more harm than good. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
23. I believe VE should be the only manner for anonymous editors to edit. It suits the predominate nature of their editing intentions and provides a good selling point for suggesting they create an account. :) John Cline (talk) 18:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
24. For 2 reasons: It may indeed attract users and again, someone has to test it. Why not the Flagship of the Wikimedia Foundation? -- Rillke (talk) 21:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

VE should not be presented to anonymous users by default

1. Not in its current state. I think the VE can be a great tool, but I feel like the vast majority of anonymous users will find it unhelpful and won't be interested in being beta testers if they are not registered. That said, I think once the VE has improved, particularly in terms of the concerns over references and templates, I think it will then be appropriate to roll this out to anonymous users. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 05:17, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Contrary to your belief, since anons are usually newbie to wiki, they're actually more eager to use the VE for its straightforwardness, regardless of its testing stage. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 05:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Noted. But I am in complete agreement over unexpected results after editing using the VE causing confusion and frustration in new editors as mentioned below, and I think it is this aspect that cause new editors to lose interest. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 08:06, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

2. VE is more likely to ruin the layout of the article. Because it is more difficult to tell anonymous editors the damage they have done due to dynamic IP, it should remain unavailable to anons until VE is 100% bugfree. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 05:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
3. Surely not in its current state as the VisualEditor belongs rather to the problems than to the solutions given the cleanup which is required due to its glitches. --AFBorchert (talk) 06:08, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
4. Anon editors are either enthusiastic newbies, or gnarled old timers who wish to hit and walk away, in either case the substantial number of comment messages on a page need to be seen. Gnarled old timers are more likely to want to just fix {{cn}}s or slip in a {{convert}} and don't thank you for an extra layer of shoddy bling getting in the way. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 06:26, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
5. Not with the current list of opened bugs or missing enhancements that currently generate damages in articles. It could be presented to anonymous users once it has been fixed, even if VE is not feature full. --NicoV ^{(Talk on frwiki)} 06:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
6. It doesn't work, and IPs are people too. Yngvadottir (talk) 06:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
7. I suspect an IP editor accidentally damaging an article's formatting by using VE will be confused and driven away. "Cheez! I just destroyed that table! They'll think I'm a vandal." →StaniStani  08:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
8. Considering how many broken edits the Visual Editor is causing, even for editors who would otherwise be making a fine edit, it is much better to not have it on by default for them. Because the system is in Beta, it should be something where you have to opt-in, and creating an account would be the method for doing that. We're trying to encourage editors to make accounts anyways, so I don't see this as a big deal. Silverseren^C 09:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
9. Anonymous editors especially expect the default editing method to work. It doesn't - sometimes it breaks articles. And it doesn't include many features we want all editors to be able to use, such as footnoting.  Sandstein  10:53, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
10. By default, they shouldn't be presented with a totally unfinished piece of software. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:19, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
11. Not while there are still so many bugs and parts are still unfinished, and if and when it's changed back to default should be decided by another RFC. Sarahj2107 (talk) 12:30, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
12. Not ready. Andreas JN466 12:36, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
13. Takes too long to load. – Plarem ^{(User talk)} 13:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
14. Not until it's ready. -- Hillbillyholiday ^talk 13:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
15. per above - Takes forever loading & It's not ready at all. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 13:50, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
16. That dog won't hunt, and it is a useless distraction now. It would be better to send newcomers to "adoption school", to learn how to pass RfAs without writing articles. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
17. No. I am a long-time IP editor who mostly fixes spelling and so forth. I commented on a previous RFC about this after a very bad first experience with this visual editor thing, which made me wait forever while it loaded and then forever again while I was trying to figure out what it was and how to make it go away. I hope you turn it off for IP editors by default, or at least put "edit source" links in sections instead of just for the whole article.198.72.143.40 (talk) 14:44, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
18. Beta software will frustrate and drive away newbies.--Aschmidt (talk) 14:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
19. beta-software wich is not working will frustrate newbies. -- Andreas Werle (talk) 16:16, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
20. I have learned of at least one newbie who found it horribly confusing and distinctly preferred editing the wikitext directly. The approach to learning wikitext that the newbie uses is emulation of existing markup. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:51, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
21. No. Not now. Not until it's VERY stable. Intothatdarkness 17:00, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
22. Not at this time. Right now there are too many problems with this unstable release. At some point in the future when the bugs have been worked out and the interface has been cleaned up and made more friendly we can implement it to unregistered users. It would be a good idea then. But not yet. Kumioko (talk) 17:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
23. See bugzilla:50540 and bugzilla:52202. I don't see how such buggy software can be presented to IPs in a way that is clear enough. They can't enable or disable preferences to customize it, or to remove it. So it makes more sense to disable it for IPs for now. What's the rush to enable it for IPs anyway? --Timeshifter (talk) 17:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
24. Since they can't have preferences.--Gilderien Talk to me|List of good deeds 17:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
25. Also see what I've written here for more information. Kurtis ^(talk) 18:17, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
26. I see a lot of the vandals using VisualEditor to easily blank parts of sections because they can see more quickly what they are blanking. Since a large percentage of vandals are IPs, and since VisualEditor is so problematic, it shouldn't be presented by default. — kikichugirl ^inquire 18:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
27. No. At present it's too easy for IP vandals to abuse, and is impenetrable to legitimately new users. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 19:34, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
28. Of course not. It's beta software and beta software shouldn't be active for any user, especially not anonymous users without the possibility to opt-out. --Patrick87 (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
29. No. Absolutely not. Manxruler (talk) 21:17, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
30. No. Slow, bugridden and lacks critical functionality. Not yet, obviously. Black Kite (talk) 21:20, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
31. As with new editors. Hut 8.5 21:36, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
32. If presented at all, it should only be presented as an alternative to wikitext, with a caution that it is still in beta. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
33. If we allow editing by IP addresses, which we do, it is inappropriate to treat them as guinea pigs. (I wouldn't object to disabling editing by IP addresses, but I do object to using them as test animals. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:59, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
34. Sorry Jimbo - The WMF should know that betas should be tested by experienced users and that anonymous editors should not be forced to test this buggy beta. PantherLeapord (talk) 00:01, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
35. Hey I have an idea, let's beta test a bunch of buggy software on the most popular store of world's knowledge (for better or for worse) which a bunch of people who have never used it before. What could possibly go wrong? Sailsbystars (talk) 00:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
36. Same as with new editors. postdlf (talk) 01:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
37. Since IP's don't have the opportunity for a detailed explanation and radio button that user account creations do, I would say to play it on the safe side by default. — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 01:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
38. New users should not have to test this by default. TCN7JM 02:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
39. I am a software developer and quality assurance analyst by trade. Beta software testing is not for the faint at heart. I say don't even make it available to unregistered users at this time for much the same reason I gave a Strong Opt-in to even enabling it for new registered users. VE is simply not production ready.  Jim Reed (Talk)  03:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
40. Not right now. Spencer^T♦C 04:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
41. Beta should not be default. StringTheory11 (t • c) 04:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
42. Support Lfstevens (talk) 17:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
43. No. There is too much vandalism from anonymous IPs. This only makes it easier.Slacka123 (talk) 04:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
44. Agree, not while it is still in beta. —Bruce1ee^talk 05:37, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
45. No. I agree with the above, there is too much potential for abuse. I think that visual editor should be restricted to editors over a certain threshold of edits to maintain the correct usage and minimize vandalism. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 05:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
46. I agree with many of the views presented above. The original wiki markup is an effective deterrent to anonymous vandals because of its complex nature. The VE tool should be made available only to registered and established users (users who have made a significant number of edits, say, 500) to recognise them for their contributions and to offer them a "simpler" way to edit pages. It's like learning how to drive a manual car and getting a licence first before switching to an auto car. LDS _{contact me} 05:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
47. No. Anonymous users should have the same 'preferences' as the default for new users. That's basic usability design. Modest Genius ^talk 10:00, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
48. The software is just too buggy. --Meno25 (talk) 10:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
49. --Eingangskontrolle (talk) 10:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
50. No. No VE for anonymous editors for the same reasons why I wanted opt-in above. VE is obviously still only a beta. Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 12:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
51. No. Even worse than by default for others. StevenJ81 (talk) 12:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
52. No. Per above. Vandalism seems to be at a very high level as it is. Also, the good IP editors don't need to be our crash-test pilots. Jusdafax 13:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
53. Never. The amount of IP vandalism I come across that has the VE tag is massive. I also fully agree with LDS above. Make it an extra for established editors.  Yintan  14:21, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
54. No. Too many problems with the beta.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:06, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
55. Never it turns well meaning editors into unwitting vandals Agathoclea (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
56. Not by default, but they should be able to use it after being clearly notified that it's a beta. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
57. Yes but in the same state as it would be for "named" users, where they can opt in if they choose.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  18:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
58. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 19:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
59. Never. This tool is absolutely not ready for anons to use, and IMHO falls into the category of tools that should only be available to registered, autoconfirmed editors. There are several things anon editors can't do, using VE should be one of them. If they want to make constructive contributions, and think they would prefer using VE to do it, then that's one more benefit of creating an account. -Wine Guy~Talk 19:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
60. No: Not ready for prime-time, scares off conscientious newcomers, while enabling gleeful (as well as inadvertent) vandalism. Reify-tech (talk) 19:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
61. No, it should not be the default. Axl ¤ [Talk] 20:27, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
62. No: not until important trechnical issues are resolved and it is not a beta anymore.--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
63. Every little tweak and bug should be worked out first. United States Man (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
64. No - not while there are so many issues with a feature that represents a core function of this website. --RA (✍) 22:22, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
65. No - not with the present state of VE.--Jockzain (talk) 22:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
66. No: I'm sick of fixing good faith edits screwed up by the VisualEditor. Ginsuloft (talk) 22:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
67. No One of the dumbest ideas I've ever seen. Joefromrandb (talk) 22:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
68. No. It's still in beta, and it still has bugs that need to be worked out. Beta software such as this one should never be the default for editors until the problems are worked out and a stable version is released. Lugia2453 (talk) 22:37, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
69. No. "It's still in beta" - nuff said.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 22:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
70. No. Its terrible. Its so unuser friendly and down right confusing. Near impossible to edit with it. It glitches, it causes the website to load slow. --Rushton2010 (talk) 22:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
71. No. Oppose using our next generation of editors as lab rats.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:46, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
72. No now, Yes in the future—In concept, giving anons the VE is a good idea, however, until the bugs are ironed out, the VisualEditor is likely to harm Wikipedia's image among potential future editors.—Love, Kelvinsong talk 22:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
73. Not yet: It is possible in the future, but with the limitations at present it might put off some users more than showing the syntax. When it is workable, it should be a one-time question.--Marianian^(talk) 22:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
74. No simply on the basis that preferences don't work for anons. ⁓ Hello71 22:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Comment: IMO it might be possible to save preferences based on cookies. --Marianian^(talk) 22:57, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

75. Hell no no reason to mistreat IPs more than we have to for technological purposes. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:00, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
76. No per previous comments of mine, above and below. --Jackson Peebles (talk) 23:00, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
77. No, visual editor is too difficult and frustrating to use.--William S. Saturn (talk) 23:02, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
78. No, not as it is working now. QED237 (talk) 23:07, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
79. No per previous statement and above. Elockid ^(Talk) 23:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
80. Having two editing formats would be confusing to new editors. Better to start them off with the more stable editing format. SMP0328. (talk) 23:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
81. No the system's too buggy. B-watchmework (talk) 23:27, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
82. No - See above, the VisualEditor is a bad enough idea already. I mean, personally I don't think it should be available at all, but definitely not to anonymous contributors.--Newbiepedian (Hailing Frequencies) 23:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
83. No, not ready yet, and far too buggy.— James Estevez (talk) 23:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
84. Not now. When it is properly functional, then it's worth considering, I suppose. Everyking (talk) 23:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
85. No. I think the regular form of editing is less confusing. Why learn one method and then have to change later? Newjerseyliz (talk) 23:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
86. No, too buggy and too soon. Prabash.Akmeemana 23:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
87. No - until VE moves out of beta (as in, most of the bugs are fixed and the thing is stable), the current editing system should remain the default for anonymous users. RandomArticles||Talk 23:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
88. No. It takes to long to load and it's apparently still in beta. --Mαuri^’96 “everything and nothing always haunts me…” 23:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
89. No VE isn't ready for primetime pbp 23:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
90. No Per my earlier comment. Sławomir Biały (talk) 23:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
91. No As I said above, VE is in beta mode and needs to be tested by users with experience. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:57, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
92. No, until it's bugfree and out of beta. Jguy _Talk^Done 00:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
93. No, Not as the default. Jagnor (talk) 00:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
94. No, needs to be much better than what it is now to be default. -ELEKHH^T 00:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
95. Like Stanistani (vote number 7) said, the last thing we need is a new editor thinking that we assume that they're a vandal because VE broke something on the page. ALH (talk) 00:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
96. A beta stage is intended for testing by a select group. Having an account should at least be a threshold to be a member of that group. Holdek (talk) 00:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
97. This should not be presented to anons, beyond a link to it being on the to of the page of the traditional editor. And upon enabling this, users with small monitors should be warned that it may not work for them. Icedog (talk) 00:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
98. Too buggy. While VisualEditor's purpose is to encourage and retain editors, in its current buggy state it may have the opposite effect. Deploy only the finished product to anonymous users. --teb00007 ^{Talk • Contributions} 00:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
99. No, and even not the default when it ends Beta testing.--DThomsen8 (talk) 00:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
100. Connor Behan (talk) 00:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
101. No! Perhaps, a hint could be displayed somewhere that a VE interface is available if you click somewhere (and also keep it as default in your user preferences), but beyond that, VE should be set to disabled as default until it gets smart and fast enough. Normally, poor bandwidth connections and new/anonymous users go hand in hand. ViswaPrabhaവിശ്വപ്രഭ^talk 01:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
102. No Anonymous editors have chosen to be anonymous, they need not be coddled for that. μηδείς (talk) 01:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
103. NO! I like it the way it is but, it is a great way to show it the way it should be. 22dragon22burn (talk) 01:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
104. NO!!! If registered users can't even get the hang of it, why would we have IPs use it as default Thegreyanomaly (talk) 01:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
105. Apteva (talk) 01:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
106. No. ★Saurabh P.  |  ☎ talk 02:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
107. simple and step by step is always best--we should each be aware of what we're doing, not everything automaticNickholbrook (talk) 01:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
108. NO!!! There is already much too much anonymous vandalism without allowing wider and, eventually, easier access... GWFrog (talk) 02:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
109. No This is not easy to use and not appropriate for the typical anonymous editor because it presents an inferior user experience. Blue Rasberry (talk) 02:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
110. I don't think it should be enabled for unregistered users for some of the reasons given above, most notebly the long wait time before the editor came up.Graham1973 (talk) 02:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
111. No I agree with many of the reasons outlined above. I just signed up for Wikipedia a few months ago and am finding the markup easier to use than the visual editor (which makes me afraid my computer is going to crash every time). I think it's a great idea to have a visual editor, I just don't think it's to the point where it is non-buggy enough to use for visitors/anonymous people. Neurosciency (talk) 03:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
112. No - Not now, maybe never. This facilitates and currently aggravates the errors they introduce. Rock4arolla (talk) 03:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
113. Probably not. It should certainly be an option, but it is currently too buggy and roll-out after the worst bugs are fixed should be dependent on user feedback and not WMF higher-ups trying to fix a nonexistent problem: there is not actually anything easier than plaintext editing which is how Wikipedia got here in the first place. New users are simply not as stupid as they think they are and the problems with user retention come from other sources. — LlywelynII 03:16, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
114. No Maybe once the bugs are worked out. Not now. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
115. Jclemens (talk) 05:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
116. No - comments above say lots of good reasons why. -- cyclopia^speak! 10:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
117. No. I'm not comfortable with giving IP users the ability to use this new tool, specially when its misuses should be a time sink for fixing the errors.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 12:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     See what I'm talking about?--Jetstreamer ^Talk 12:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

118. No per Jetstreamer. Jeff5102 (talk) 14:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
119. No. This thing is broken for regular users, giving to anon's is a terrible idea. Remove the VE from this site and test it somewhere smaller until it is actually working. Macktheknifeau (talk) 14:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
120. NO Absolutely not. Once out of beta status and proven effective, this will a great tool for new and unregistered users. We end up fixing just as many mistakes for their attempted wikimarkup as those currently resulted from VE bugs. Give it some time, then we should reconsider VE as default. — MusikAnimal ^talk 15:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
121. No no NO. It is confusing and overly-complicated, and as a result it makes it very easy to introduce errors to a page without realizing it. Users who have studied it enough to be able to use it without mangling the page they're working on almost certainly have an account already. --Aquillion (talk) 15:08, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
122. --Jasca Ducato (talk) 15:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
123. NO Absolutely not. As per first question, it is beta software for pete's sake. Jytdog (talk) 15:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
124. No. It could well be available to anonymous users, but not as default. Blue Elf (talk) 16:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
125. NO. It should be available, but Wiki markup should be preferred. Confusing, overly complicated, and simply not working. Not to mention that encourages opportunistic vandalism. RGloucester (talk) 17:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
126. NEVER NEVER NEVER Great way of making vandalism easier and vandalism largely comes from IP-editors. Might as well give street gangs guns, too. Make them register an account.--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
127. No. They should have make a positive choice to use VE, since it's prone to breaking page layouts, at least for now. Kudu ^~I/O~ 17:16, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
128. No. VE seems to be a tool for the introduction of errors and breakage. Frankly, no one should use it at all unless they've familiarized themselves with it in some kind of sandbox environment. bd2412 T 17:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
129. No Wait until it has all of the functionality of the wikitext editor. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
130. No. — This doesn't mean I don't like 'anonymous' to make some edits, as not all of them have bad interests. It just feels that the VE should be the advantage for people that have a registered account. — Vic2908 (talk) 18:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
131. No. Leaves the whole thing easily open to abuse of articles. I don't want to have to be the one clearing up constant article abuses because of easy access to editing. I'm not saying all anonymous users are bad, but some are, and I feel VE should be privallege of actual Wiki members that edit articles to improve their quality in a positive way. Furthermore, I would even suggest temporary halts of this privilege if members are found to abuse articles with no good reason. Bruno Russell (talk) 18:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
132. No. It is completely wrong. Stop uglify Wikipedia with initiatives like that.--Soul Train (talk) 18:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
133. No. I can't think of many better ways of putting off new editors. Arjayay (talk) 18:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
134. Not yet Definitely not at least yet, until it's further refined with bugs virtually non-existent, and features (such as citation inputs) increased Tom W (talk) 18:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
135. No It's simply not ready yet, and there's too many issues that still need to be addressed. Signalizing (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• No I agree with thee last 3 posts. 19:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

1. No. It shouldn't be the default for anyone. In it's present state, it shouldn't even be available to anonymous. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
2. Definitely NO, it's horribly slow and buggy. Will easily repulse good faith editors. - ☣Tourbillon ^A ? 20:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
3. No. Since they cannot choose, they should be given the most stable and functional tool. elmindreda (talk) 21:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
4. No (if that's not a double negative). Anonymous users have just as much right to a working interface as registered users do. Rivertorch (talk) 21:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of anonymous editors' default state

This is a tricky one. If it's going to be presented, it needs to be clearly marked as experimental. I'd suggest that, if it is presented for anonymous users, it should only be for whole-page editing; section editing isn't really supported in VE at this time anyway. Would "VE should only be presented to anonymous users if very clearly marked as experimental" be an option? Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 01:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I think this question is slightly confusing. I don't support selecting VE as default interface automatically for IP users without offering them a choice and explaining what it is - I've tried to clarify my !vote to reflect that. Begoon ^talk 09:19, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Then please give your thoughts in question 2.5. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 09:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done - thank you, I missed that question. Begoon ^talk 09:38, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Question 2.5: If VE is presented to anonymous users, how visible should it be?

Unchanged: The "edit" link brings user to VE and pops up the "edit source" link next to it.

1. Yes. Although I do wonder if new users will understand "edit source". Though longer, the tab might be re-named "edit wiki code" or something similar. Meclee (talk) 22:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
2. I agree, if we stick with this way, i think a lot of people would understand "edit wiki code" or something similar, better than they would know what "edit source" is supposed to mean. Invertzoo (talk) 22:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
3. I don't agree completely with this option, but I prefer it to the other option because making anonymous users have to first go in the wikitext editor and then open the VisualEditor just to use it would reduce their productivity. They shouldn't have to go through an editor just to get in the editor they actually want to use, if they do want to use VisualEditor. It should be possible to access VisualEditor from the tab bar at the top, just like the wikitext editor, but the wikitext editor could be made more prominent. Hiding the VisualEditor under the wikitext editor would however not be a good idea. -- Rastus Vernon (talk) 01:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
4. Support I think nearly everthing an IP wants can be done with VE and it is very easy, even it is a beta. --Minihaa (talk) 15:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
5. The current situation should be kept, at least until somebody present convincing non-anecdotal data that shows that it is doing more harm than good. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
6. So that a big portion of users will use it. WYSIWYG is the future. -- Rillke (talk) 21:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Still directs user to wikitext editor but display the VE beta tag and link to VE at the top of the wikitext edit page.

1. This seems closest to what I'd prefer. The link should offer well presented warnings, help and assistance, and a clear path to submit bug and experience reports. Begoon ^talk 09:26, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
2. To allow voluntary testing as desired, but with an indication of the risks and caveats.  Sandstein  11:06, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
3. Per Sandstein. Thryduulf (talk) 11:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
4. This seems a reasonable approach between more testing and not breaking the wiki. MER-C 12:52, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
5. If it must be presented to anonymous users at all, then extensive warning and advice is absolutely necessary. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:59, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
6. Per Sandstein.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 17:50, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
7. This would be better. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 18:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
8. Sounds reasonable. Manxruler (talk) 21:20, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
9. Yes. And please, make the tabs, whatever they say, consistent - at present "Edit" sometimes gets you VE and sometimes the wikitext editor, and that's a usability disaster. JohnCD (talk) 22:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
10. Strong support - We need to at least make it clear that this is a BETA! PantherLeapord (talk) 00:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
11. Allowing people to opt in (rather than forcing), knowing it's buggy and beta testy, isn't a bad idea. Sailsbystars (talk) 00:46, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
12. Support, as per the above statements. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
13. --Eingangskontrolle (talk) 10:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
14. Strong support - If it is available to anonymous editors at all, there should be ample warning and informed consent. Reify-tech (talk) 19:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
15. Support for the duration of beta testing. --Marianian^(talk) 22:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
16. Support, that seems to make sense. Everyking (talk) 23:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
17. Beta status must be disclosed. Holdek (talk) 00:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
18. Seems like the most sensible approach. --teb00007 ^{Talk • Contributions} 00:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
19. Support because it sense. Corn cheese (talk) 00:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
20. Support That must be the way! ViswaPrabhaവിശ്വപ്രഭ^talk 01:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
21. Strong support Good solution for all new users hgilbert (talk) 02:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
22. Support great idea! Neurosciency (talk) 03:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
23. Support so long as it's labeled "beta". I mean, if new users aren't pushed to use it, who will? Chris Troutman (talk) 04:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
24. Okay, with a huge warning that it is beta and that it can garble edits. -- cyclopia^speak! 10:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
25. Faizan 13:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
26. Support — MusikAnimal ^talk 14:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
27. Support. This seems to be the best solution overall. Sławomir Biały (talk) 15:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
28. --Jasca Ducato (talk) 15:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
29. Support. If it must be presented to users, it would be better to push it as far out of the way as possible -- given its fundamental limitations and the inevitable frustration they're going to bring anyone who starts out by using it, I don't think we ever want it to seem like the default for anyone, which would be the effect of having simple 'edit' buttons lead there. --Aquillion (talk) 15:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
30. Support. There's nothing wrong with making VE available to new and anonymous users, but it should be unobtrusive, and not pop two different "edit" links up right in the front. JIP | Talk 16:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
31. Less confusing, per Sandstein. Kudu ^~I/O~ 17:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
32. Support - if we have to have VE at all, provided there is a full expanation of all the current problems. Arjayay (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
33. Support per Sandstein. Tazerdadog (talk) 19:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of VE's visibility to anonymous editors

• I think that as a rule, content should never move except by the user clicking on it. There are fads where sites steer away from this, ranging all the way from the first blink tag to Windows 8's awful mouseoverable menus but they never seem to last long, because they're obnoxious. Just make "edit" and "edit source" plain, stationary tabs. Wnt (talk) 19:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
  • @Wnt: Template:Bugzilla is requesting exactly this, and I would encourage you to add your comments about it there. Thryduulf (talk) 08:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
    • If Timeshifter is the one (partly) responsible for the hover link of "edit source", I'm afraid no more comment of ours will move him a bit because he is ASSUMING the VE is working "well" which is "not well" at all currently. I can't imagine how you reason with a person who could make such painful assumption for rejecting opposing comments. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 08:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Greetings Sameboat. I believe from reading your user page that your native language is Chinese. You are completely misreading what I wrote in bugzilla:50540. I oppose the hover link, and I do not think VE is working well. I stated both things in the Bugzilla thread. If Google translation is what you are using, or other machine translation, then I understand since I know how bad Google translation can be (or any machine translation). --Timeshifter (talk) 10:16, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. I am not sure it is good to enable VE in any way for anonymous IP editors. If just the whole-page VE edit link is left up, it could discourage many editors who try it since it is slow for many people. I think millions of dollars should be spent to do whatever it takes to make VE do true section editing. Also, editing references must be working very well before fully enabling VE for IPs. If IPs try to use either editor, and find both of them difficult to use, they may not come back for a long time. The hope is that IP editors find VE easier, but much of what I read says otherwise. It almost seems to be vaporware at this point. VE section edit links should definitely be removed for IP editors. 2 confusing page editors (VE and wikitext) are not better than one confusing (wikitext) editor. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

1. Comment. I agree fully with Timeshifter.StevenJ81 (talk) 12:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not saying that VE should disappear. It just shouldn't be linked to "Edit". "Edit" should be the normal form of wiki editing. Call VE something else like "Edit lite" or "Edit basic". But VE should NOT be what appears when you hit "Edit".

• Remaining neutral for now. I think we should focus on real, actionable improvements that can be made to VisualEditor. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• I too am remaining neutral relative to casting "votes." I love the concept of IP editors, though the vast majority of vandalism occurs through IPs. Random IPs interject new thoughts and subjects that need research and development. They provide new information from sources the usual suspects wouldn't be watching. But based on my watchlist, the vast majority of edits made by inexperienced users, primarily IPs, with the Visual Editor, have been strewn with errors. Some errors are major formatting errors. Most edits need to be cleaned up, sometimes extensively. The Visual Editor itself needs to be repaired to minimize these common errors before its ready for prime time. Is this the desired effect? To have IPs more easily insert junk along with their valuable content, which will then attract the attention of an experienced editor to give it scrutiny while cleaning up the mess? Sure seems like it. Trackinfo (talk) 23:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Don't allow anon VP use during beta - If they aren't committed enough to create and use a login, then they are not committed enough to be trusted as beta testers. Anonymous editors are, as a group, usually considerably less proficient or diligent than logged-in users. Why would we facilitate their error generation any more than we already do? VE is making a mess of the site in its current state, and anon users are, as a group, 'contributing' much more than their fair share of VE errors. They are, as a group, not as aware of its problems as we are, nor as concerned about them as we are. If this is in beta, then it should only be a core group of testers using it - users who are aware of its problems and are concerned about correcting them, NOT just any stray person or bot that wanders in off the webs. I'm not sure if it was ready for beta yet, but I am sure it should not be the default choice for the 'most corrected' contributors yet. Rock4arolla (talk) 03:15, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. — I still prefer not to let anonymous using VE by now. Just like my comment above, the VE should be an advantage for people with registered account. — Vic2908 (talk) 18:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment "Edit source" really needs to be changed. I open WP by directly typing the URL in, and the first time I opened the website since VE's deployment (I wasn't logged in yet) my first instinct was "why is this article protected?" This might confuse some people, even those who've never worked with protected pages. — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 20:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Question 3: Should the preference be set to disable VE for all existing accounts, requiring editors that choose to test VE to specifically enable it?

Change preference state for existing accounts

1. Testing is something that should be done by choice. Casual and infrequent editors shouldn't be expected to keep track of things to avoid becoming test subjects.—Kww(talk) 01:26, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
2. Agreed with Kww. Even today, I regularly see people surprised to learn they can opt out, as they had been desperate to do so, but couldn't figure out how, thanks to the flubbed launch. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 01:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
3. I agree with Kww and would generally recommend to keep it that way as I still think that newbies will have less difficulty with wikitext than with the VisualEditor. --AFBorchert (talk) 06:11, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
4. per Kww. Begoon ^talk 06:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
5. Agree with Kww, and editors now know about VE so they can enable it if they want to continue testing it. --NicoV ^{(Talk on frwiki)} 06:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
6. This would be best: return to a true beta test, the situation before they decided to force it on everyone despite the feedback they had gotten. If it needs testing, let it be tested. And fixed. Yngvadottir (talk) 06:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
7. This makes the most sense. Opt-in should be opt-in, not forced on people. So they would have to make the effort to hit the preference check-box if they want to test the system. Silverseren^C 09:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
8. Yes, contributing to the test should be a voluntary act. Editors should be notified about this change.  Sandstein  11:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
9. Obviously. Don't force half-finished software on people that aren't power users. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
10. As is normal with beta testing it should be an individuals choice to participate. Sarahj2107 (talk) 12:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
11. Per Kww. Andreas JN466 12:37, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
12. MER-C 12:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
13. – Plarem ^{(User talk)} 13:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
14. -- Hillbillyholiday ^talk 13:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
15. per User:Kww. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 13:52, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
16. Obviously, to save vacationers and innocents the headaches of VE, which is useless now. Why not hire the folks who made "Scientific Workplace" to develop an editor and stop amateur hour? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:17, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
17. per kww -- Andreas Werle (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
18. Don't turn anonymous users into involuntary guinea pigs. Vandalism is more than enough of a problem, frustration with non-working software will only exacerbate it. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
19. Yes, we shouldn't be forcing users to beta test. Kumioko (talk) 17:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
20. Please, manually switching off for two languages should be enough, I really don't want to navigate a preference menu in every language I visit to make a slight numerical correction. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 17:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
21. per Kww Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 18:03, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
22. See my thoughts here for more details. Kurtis ^(talk) 18:18, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
23. Opt-in: too much missing functionality.--ukexpat (talk) 18:31, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
24. Yes. It literally cannot be opt-in unless and until this happens. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 19:38, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
25. It was an error to enable beta software for everyone by default in the first place, and this error should be fixed. --Patrick87 (talk) 19:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
26. Why force editors to be beta testers?  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 20:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
27. Yes, the default must be off given what we now know, though I suspect most regular editors have made that choice. Black Kite (talk) 21:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
28. Per Sarahj2107 etc. Manxruler (talk) 21:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
29. Yes, and I'm getting kind of tired of looking for the "edit source" link. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:44, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
30. Per Kww. The developers have plenty of bugs to be going on with, and limiting the number of VE users will limit the damage being done to the encyclopedia by VE through stray nowikis and the like. (In the last hour I checked, Filter 550 was tripped 50 times). JohnCD (talk) 22:18, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
31. Forced beta testing of VE when people DO NOT want it enabled while it is in beta will almost certainly cause massive editor loss. PantherLeapord (talk) 00:06, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
32. Per Kww. I'm a regular editor who pops up on a lot of policy pages here and there, and I was still thrown off when it suddenly showed up one day and I had to figure out what the hell I was looking at and if I could get rid of it. postdlf (talk) 01:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
33. Beta testing is a nice way to find bugs, but there's always the warning of "do not use in a production environment" or something like that. The open wiki is certainly a production environment, and beta usage should be by choice and at the user's discretion. We can RFC again once the bugs are fixed. — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 01:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
34. A couple of my colleagues at USRD didn't even know there was a preference setting to turn it off. This needs to change. TCN7JM 02:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
35. By leaving it on for existing accounts, the community risks driving away some editors who might not know enough to disable it, or not care enough to even try (e.g., retired editors considering a comeback). Bringing more people into the fold is supposed to be the idea of this tool... and I don't think it should be at the cost of more established editors. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 02:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
36. Per kww. Spencer^T♦C 04:14, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
37. Yes per Kww. StringTheory11 (t • c) 04:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
38. Yes, per Mendaliv. —Bruce1ee^talk 05:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
39. Insulam Simia (talk) 07:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
40. In most cases I don't think users' preferences should be changed for them. But in this case it's just setting it back to what it was before VE messed things up, so I think it's justified. However, users must be informed of the change, and provided with a link to turn it back on if they wish. Modest Genius ^talk 10:02, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
41. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 10:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
42. --Meno25 (talk) 10:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
43. --Eingangskontrolle (talk) 10:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
44. Yes as per all above. Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 12:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
45. Per Kww's comment, you cannot force users to test a new feature, especially as buggy as the VE is at the moment. However, a message should be displayed to registered users, which invites them to participate in a beta test, so the ones who are interested can try it out. 2Flows (talk) 12:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
46. Per others.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
47. Per Kww & 2Flows "opting in" should be the default for all testing. Forcing existing users to opt out is a time sink for everyone especially with something as unfinshed as VE currently is--Cailil ^talk 13:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
48. Yes. Please. Per Sarahj2107.  Yintan  14:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
49. Yes. Please. Amongst other reasons, I often still use a 2006 era Pentium 4 computer, and VE takes an annoying ~10 secs to startup on moderate sized articles. Rwendland (talk) 14:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
50. Yes. Experienced editors (or at least myself) greatly prefer the speed and enhanced functionality of the traditional editing mode. This is subject to change in the future if the VE improves. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
51. Yes Brambleclawx 15:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
52. Obviously, per Kww and others. Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 16:25, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
53. No contest. Agathoclea (talk) 17:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
54. Yes - Let those who just want to edit do so, without forcing them to do beta-testing. New, unexpected behaviors should always be opt-in; we have enough unpleasant surprises from bugs and outages already. Reify-tech (talk) 20:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
55. Yes--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
56. Yes--Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 21:07, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
57. Yes United States Man (talk) 21:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
58. Yes Rollback to the previous state before this experiment. --RA (✍) 22:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
59. per Kww.--Jockzain (talk) 22:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
60. Yes This is the most important decision to make as it is experienced users who know how to edit wikitext. VE, even when disabled, slows down editing on wikipedia. The opt-in option should be available on all wikipedias, limiting this to the English is unhelpful. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 22:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
61. A feature should NEVER be imposed on a editor. My preferences or any other editor's should only be changable by the editor themselves....William 22:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
62. All VE has done is cost me time. Do it better and come back to us, don't impose it on us.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
63. Yes. Disable it. The sooner the better --Rushton2010 (talk) 22:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
64. Yes Let's assume all existing accounts are users who are familiar (or soon to be familiar) with the wikicode. Forcing the Visual Editor on them makes no sense. Wikipedia is not Facebook.—Love, Kelvinsong talk 22:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
65. Opt-in. The principle of respect.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 22:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
66. Yes because it should not have been enabled by default to begin with. I feel that experimental features should be limited to test sites (e.g.Test Wikipedia) until they are rolled out in full. This isn't to say that I'm resisting change, but even Twinkle, for instance, is not enabled by default. Tools should be opt-in, per the above consensus (at least, it looks like consensus), and the above !poll should have been taken before implementing these changes. --Jackson Peebles (talk) 22:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
67. Yes. Beta software should never be set as default for editors. Lugia2453 (talk) 22:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
68. Yes: Some editors like me are happy with using syntax: it helps when producing intricate tables. --Marianian^(talk) 23:01, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
69. Yes. I turned it off, but I suspect some users won't bother and will just use WP less. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
70. Yes. Forcing people to beta test software is not respectful of your users. Let people opt-in if they want to test it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
71. Yes, those editors that want to beta-test should opt it in themselves. Now you force people to beta-test. QED237 (talk) 23:14, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
72. —$\mathrm {ITAC}$ $\mathrm {talk}$ 23:17, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
73. Obviously Elockid ^(Talk) 23:18, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
74. Yes (Third attempt - Edit conflicts!) There are so many problems with VE for the casual editor and those, like me, who don't understand how it has broken templates and tables, that it seems the only option is this one. I agree with User:Marianian - tables in particular can only be edited by wikitext, as VE is simply not built to deal with the syntax. doktorb _words^deeds 23:19, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
75. Yes - Pretty much all existing editors, especially longer-term ones, are accustomed to editing in Wikicode rather than through some WYSIWYG interface, so I'd make an educated guess that most of us are more comfortable with plaintext editing than the VisualEditor.--Newbiepedian (Hailing Frequencies) 23:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
76. Definitely. Per... well, just about everybody else. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 23:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
77. Yes. Especially while in beta still; any user should be able to opt-in via preferences if desired. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:41, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
78. Beta software should always be marked as such. This is especially true when the software is buggy. SMP0328. (talk) 23:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
79. That sounds like the best thing to do. Everyking (talk) 23:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
80. I do not believe that the WMF should have access or be able to change my preferences. They've already done it twice already, so what's one more time to actually disable? Jguy _Talk^Done 00:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
81. Please. -download ׀ talk 00:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
82. Yes we can all opt out of things we dont want to do.. what is this Stalinist Russia? Prabash.Akmeemana 00:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
83. It was a mistake making a beta program the default. The best correction is to require an opt-in. Holdek (talk) 00:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
84. Absolutely! That's how it should have been right from the start! ALH (talk) 00:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
85. I think it should be done by choice. Corn cheese (talk) 00:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
86. Connor Behan (talk) 00:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
87. As a now infrequent editor, I'm embarrassed to admit that I didn't realize until I came to this discussion that I could disable VE in my preferences, and regain the ability to edit sections without mangling everything. - BanyanTree 00:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
88. Change preference state for existing accounts with warning. This not ready for a general audience. Icedog (talk) 00:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC) Moved from other section and edited; 1:19 UTC.
89. Yes all users should have to opt in. Learning curves are good. μηδείς (talk) 01:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
90. Yes, please! Do not force us to opt out of beta testing. LadyofShalott 01:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
91. Yes. VMS Mosaic (talk) 01:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
92. Yes The preferences have been already changed (to automatically enable the VE) without the consent of the users. That was not fair. And it has to be undone. And then onwards, just leave the user to decide his choice. ViswaPrabhaവിശ്വപ്രഭ^talk 01:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
93. Yes, yet the editor chose. B-watchmework (talk) 02:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
94. emphatically yes--i myself stumbled into this discussion not knowing i was using a beta to do it--disconcerting.Nickholbrook (talk) 02:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
95. Yes, it's a pain in the choo-choo to use, and I don't bother with it. Why make me turn it off? Make me turn it on if I want ... Oaktree b (talk) 02:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
96. YES - How can you call it a 'beta' when it has been defaulted for everyone on the site? That's what we call 'general release' where I'm from . . . . Rock4arolla (talk) 02:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
97. Yes Keep it turned off unless someone requests it or until it works better than what already exists. Blue Rasberry (talk) 02:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
98. Yes - OPT IN not OPT OUT, not just for beta testing.--Petebutt (talk) 03:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
99. Precisely as KWW noted, now and for all similar changes, however advertized in banner ads etc. — LlywelynII 03:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
100. Yes. Disable by default, and advertise in watchlist-details. — Pseudonymous Rex (talk) 05:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
101. Jclemens (talk) 06:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
102. Yes, clearly. Isn't that what opt-in means? Sławomir Biały (talk) 08:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
103. Yes - I can try it sometimes to help debugging the beta, or to see how it is going, but forcing it on users at this stage has been a huge mistake. Let it be opt-in. -- cyclopia^speak! 10:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
104. Yes. Just include it in the Preferences screen.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 12:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
105. Faizan 13:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
106. Yes. This thing is broken. Macktheknifeau (talk) 14:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
107. Yes beta should never be opt-out — MusikAnimal ^talk 14:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
108. --Jasca Ducato (talk) 15:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
109. Partly if a user has only ever experienced the classic editor (i.e. if the user account existed before VE became the default, and hasn't made any mainspace edits since it became the default) then change the user's settings back to the old editor. Otherwise, assume they'd have changed it themselves if they didn't like the new editor and change it back. davidprior ^t/_c 15:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
110. Yes. I've been editing Wikipedia for over seven years now, I'm used to ye olde editing style. I was rather annoyed that I had go to my preferences and disable it myself. --Soetermans. T / C 15:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
111. Yes. I've been into the new edit half a dozen times, every time by accident because I've clicked 'edit' before the 'edit source' option comes up. Apparently (from comments above), I can avoid this extremely annoying behaviour. I'll be changing my set up right now ... Scarabocchio (talk) 15:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
112. Yes, a thousand times yes. While I can appreciate the goal of retaining more users (even if I strongly disagree that the visual editor will accomplish that), there is absolutely no reason to present it to existing users, and serious risk of driving them away. While I can appreciate the need for feedback, it is obvious what the community reaction is at this point. --Aquillion (talk) 15:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
113. Yes this is just a repeat of the first question. ANY beta software should be opt-in, not opt-out. Default should be that visual editor is OFF. Revisit these questions when VE is out of beta.Jytdog (talk) 15:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
114. Yes, Beta or not, I didn't want to use this and it took me a while to find the opt-out, which I'd have preferred to not have had to do! (yay grammar) Nikthestunned 16:08, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
115. Agreed, while VE is useful for some quick text edits, it makes more complex tasks far more difficult than they would be with code - editing templates is confusing and longwinded, I gave up before I could figure out how to add and modify tables. If it still a "test" then it shouldn't have been rolled out. What I would like to see (and there may be a gadget for it but I haven't looked, and I think it would be a good default) is a way to have the old editor as default, but still have access to VE rather than disabling it completely (essentially the current arrangement with VE switched on, but the roles of the two editors reversed with the old one in the position of prominence). I would ideally like to have the choice, but with the old editor as first-choice and the one that comes up when I double-click to edit, rather than having the current all-or-nothing approach. If this is not possible, it should be opt-in only. --W. D. Graham 16:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
116. Yes. Blue Elf (talk) 16:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
117. Yes, absolutely. First contact with this mode is confusing, particularly to editors looking to adjust template parameters and the like. bd2412 T 17:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
118. Yes. Most people are more used to the old way, and I personally cannot stand the Visual Editor. I always make some sort of mistake from trying to do anything with it. Xxcom9a (talk) 18:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
119. Be WP:Bold Abandon it and spend the time and effort resolving real problems like the toolbars not working. Arjayay (talk) 18:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
120. Yes, I'd rather opt-in than have it forced onto me. Absolutely hate the VE feature. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
121. Yes, once VE is FULLY functional, we can talk about which should be enabled by default. Tazerdadog (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
122. Yes Beta testing should be done by choice, and with a somewhat stable product. Signalizing (talk) 19:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
123. Yes. Far too buggy to force anyone into using it. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
124. Definitely YES! If there was ever a nuisance so big as to make editors quit en masse, this is it!!! I've found it to be awkward, unwieldy, cumbersome and horribly inefficient. --AVM (talk) 21:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Do not change preference state for existing accounts

1. While I don't like VE in its current stage, if the default preference of VE is disabled wholesale, chances are many Wikipedians who can help debug VE never know its existence at all. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 06:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Sadly, very little chance of that being an issue (see: banners; notices; etc.). — LlywelynII 18:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

   Banners and notices are no substitute for the thing being right there when you go to click "edit". We're all highly trained in filtering out advertising. The path of second-to-least resistance doesn't hold a candle to the path of least resistance; i.e., using the editor that's put in front of you. —Swpb^{talk•contribs} 19:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

2. Users' preferences may not be altered by Wikimedia. After all, we are not Facebook.--Aschmidt (talk) 14:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   They already did. This would just undo some of that damage. — LlywelynII 18:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

3. Support Lfstevens (talk) 17:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

   Surely this is precisely what the WMF did by forcing VE on people without their consent? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   They had not accepted that I had opted out of VE when this preference was just about done away with some weeks ago on enwiki. That night I had to install a js page in order to have VE disabled.--Aschmidt (talk) 19:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

4. Disagree. Users can change their own preferences. (I agree that choosing wiki is the better action.) Robert McClenon (talk) 23:00, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
5. As it is, it is unfair enough that we do not offer an option to disable the text editor. There are enough eds who want to use the VE and it would be unfair on them to have to go and enable it to use it. It is fair that both the text editor and the VE should be offered for use as default.OrangesRyellow (talk) 12:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
6. No, same reasons as above. Changing this state would result in many users never discovering VisualEditor; it should be kept as the default. Robofish (talk) 22:32, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
7. Per Sameboat. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 23:06, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
8. Firstly, per Sameboat, but, secondly, if you don't like VE you should be allowed to disable it. It's sort of like "try it before you buy it". - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
9. Yes, some users don't know that they can opt-out, but this doesn't mean we should make everyone opt-out. If there are people who'd want to opt-out but don't know how, then making everyone opt-out will result in people who'd want to opt back in but won't know how. In both cases, we'll have a problem. The solution is to make the option to opt-out more prominent. -- Rastus Vernon (talk) 01:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
10. It is good for testing. Njaohnt (talk) 15:15, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
11. --Tobias1984 (talk) 17:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
12. Support. If you don't like it, you can either improve it or opt out. Opting out should be made more visible, but not made default. -Thomas Craven (talk) 18:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
13. Yes, it should be enabled by default to old accounts, too. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
14. No! It should not be enabled by default for old accounts too. Please, don't do that. I like the existing editor. It works. I don't want to use the Visual Editor. I don't want to test the Visual Editor. I test other things, like Article Feedback and one of the new WikiData things. I have helped test toolservers. I like toolservers. Please don't make me use the Visual Editor. I am happy with how things are now. Google and everyone else keeps changing things that work. First they say it is beta, then that it is optional, then the next thing I know, I'm stuck with something awful in comparison to the old thing that worked fine. I'm sorry. --FeralOink (talk) 19:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
15. Support. Put VE in everyone's face until they try it. More exposure is the only way to overcome the fear of the unknown that editors like the one above me are expressing. If you really hate VE, disable it or just ignore its presence. —Swpb^{talk•contribs} 19:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
16. This would be just confusing. -- Rillke (talk) 21:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of changing state for existing accounts

• Remaining neutral for now. I think we should focus on real, actionable improvements that can be made to VisualEditor. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• This is a ridiculous discussion. If the software isn't ready for general use then don't even put it on this website. Miqrogroove (talk) 03:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Question 4: Should the user interface explicitly warn editors that pressing the "edit" button is using beta software?

Explicitly warn that it is beta software

1. The "edit" button should explicitly say "beta editor" or something similar to warn the editor that he is testing, as opposed to simply editing.—Kww(talk) 01:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
2. Yes. Not marking beta software as such is a good way to cause a lot of confusion when things go wrong or features are discovered to be missing. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 01:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
3. Wow, this isn't mentioned? I thought I might've missed it. Yes, this certainly needs to be made clear to users that this is still a WIP where bugs should be expected. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 05:14, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
4. I'm happy to test VE, but getting grumpier by the day with its slothfulness. On this front, many times, through force of habit, I've simply clicked the Edit button to make what's a simple edit in the traditional editing mode but a ghastly one in VE, and then had to wait ages for VE to start before I could cancel it. Please label that Edit button more clearly as the way to the Beta version. Also, enable me to kill VE quickly when I accidentally start it by mistake! HiLo48 (talk) 05:19, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
5. Caveat emptor still applies. MER-C 05:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   ? Who's the "buyer" here? HiLo48 (talk) 05:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

6. Logical and sensible. Carrite (talk) 06:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
7. Indeed per Kww. --AFBorchert (talk) 06:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
8. Certainly. Users expect a certain number of bugs and quirks in beta software, we should not surprise and possibly upset/disappoint editors by not warning them. Some users will also feel inclined to submit more bug and experience reports as part of testing - if they know that is what they are doing... Begoon ^talk 06:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
9. Yes, at least users will know that VE can cause damages to articles, and they will be more inclined to check their edit. --NicoV ^{(Talk on frwiki)} 06:30, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
10. This is a distant second or third best. Best is returning to a true beta test; second best is default is the editor that works, with VE presented as if it is a working alternative mode of editing. If they don't have the basic respect for editors trying to improve and maintain the encyclopedia to implement either of those, then yes, a warning should be added. Yngvadottir (talk) 06:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
11. Yes, because they need to know that they must verify that their edits aren't inadvertently breaking something.  Sandstein  11:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
12. Obviously. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
13. This is the responsible option. We must make it clear that there is a possibility users' edits make break the page through no fault of their own. Thryduulf (talk) 11:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
14. That's what it is. --Andreas JN466 12:38, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
15. At the moment there doesn't seem to be anything to warm new editors that VE may cause problems with their edit and mess up/delete parts of the page. This means they don't know to check their edits thoroughly before and after saving, leaving it up to more experienced editors and patrollers to come and clean up after. Sarahj2107 (talk) 12:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
16. – Plarem ^{(User talk)} 13:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
17. per User:Kww. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 13:52, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
18. I forget the ethical requirements of software engineers of the Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility and the Association for Computing Machinery, but I'd bet that incompetent software is condemned as a danger to the public, a waste of their time (at best), and a danger to software engineers. There should be a crash course on software ethics by the staff. In general, it would be better to let the "Scientific Workplace" team develop an editor, and fire the people responsible for VE. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:20, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
19. Of course.--Aschmidt (talk) 14:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
20. I am completely surprised that anybody can think, that users should not be warned when using malfunctioning beta-sofware. -- Andreas Werle (talk) 16:22, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
21. Absolutely. Even Captain Obvious finds this question a wall-banger. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
22. Yes absolutely. Kumioko (talk) 17:08, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
23. Simply yes. More objectively, it should also save before and after in a cache so we have a full edit trail and valuable new work can be reinstated when the wretched thing crashes on save- I would also encourage anyone to take a copy of their text before saving, pasting it in to a .txt file on their local machine- it is only alpha/beta software so that is just good practice.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 17:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
24. So prospective editors are not "surprised" when something untowards happens and don't edit again.--Gilderien Chat|What I've done 18:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
25. As a very weak alternative to my preference, which is removing the feature entirely. Also see what I've written here for more details. Kurtis ^(talk) 19:03, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
26. Yes. There is no reason the "edit" button shouldn't mention the fact it's using VE. Either change the tab or the tooltip to make it clear it's using VE, preferably the former. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 19:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
27. Sure, you're always warned of beta software – only WMF thinks it should be deployed as a "default". --Patrick87 (talk) 19:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
28. Per Kww. Manxruler (talk) 21:32, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
29. Truth in advertising. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
30. Absolutely. Someone who has knowingly chosen to test, having been warned of problems, is less likely to be permanently turned off than someone who has wandered in all unawares and then tripped over problems. JohnCD (talk) 22:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
31. Agree with JohnCD and others. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
32. ABSOLUTELY - Every other company in a public beta test of software makes it clear at every opportunity that it is a beta! It's common sense to do so! PantherLeapord (talk) 00:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
33. For sure. Visual editor has come a long way since January, but it still has a looooooooong way to go. Sailsbystars (talk) 00:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
34. Per Kww and pretty much everyone else above. postdlf (talk) 01:16, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
35. Agree with JohnCD. The knowledge, either explicit (by "are you sure" nagging, which I don't support) or implicit (by the eye glancing over the word "beta) prompts the user to think, "hey, I'll report this" as opposed to "forget about this". — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 01:18, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
36. Basically for the right to know; per Postdlf. Jsayre64 (talk) 01:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
37. Yes. TCN7JM 02:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
38. Definitely. Spencer^T♦C 04:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
39. Label "Edit for beta or worse" (just kidding). Perhaps label as "Edit slow" or "Edit risky" or such. -Wikid77 (talk) 04:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
40. Of course. StringTheory11 (t • c) 04:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
41. Oh yes. Insulam Simia (talk) 07:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
42. Of course. If the software is beta, it should be clearly marked as such. That applies in every situation. Modest Genius ^talk 10:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
43. Of course. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 10:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
44. Yes, please. --Meno25 (talk) 10:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
45. --Eingangskontrolle (talk) 10:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
46. Yes. To be honest I don't understand why VE has been enabled at all, because no sane company would use beta software in a production environment. Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 12:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
47. Yes, per all of the above. 2Flows (talk) 12:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
48. Per others.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
49. This would be a good idea. Gives editors some notice. Brambleclawx 15:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
50. Yes, if we are to test this on the live site. At this stage, I think test.wikipedia.org would be the appropriate place to debug this software. I noticed an item in the road map saying "updated alpha deployment to all Wikipedias" [5] which strikes me as incautious. —rybec 17:06, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
51. If software is beta, you make that clear. That will not only make sure editors are aware of what's going on, but also know that they're using a beta product and are encouraged to report bugs/issues. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
52. Yes - Fair warning is much better than giving the false impression that all experienced editors here use poor-quality tools, and just grit their teeth and ignore all but the nastiest bugs. Reify-tech (talk) 20:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
53. yes'--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
54. Yes - In my opinion, the eariler warning the better for users. United States Man (talk) 21:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
55. Yes Users need to know clearly that they are using software known to contain bugs so that (a) they know when things go wrong that this is not the expected behavior; and (b) so that they know to log issues with VE. --RA (✍) 22:26, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
56. Yes Ginsuloft (talk) 22:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
57. Yes. Since beta software such as this tend to have problems and are not stable, it is definitely necessary for users to know that they are using beta software. Lugia2453 (talk) 22:41, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
58. Yes - Beta programs should be marked as such. In this case, it might aid in editor retention; I can see some brand-new editors giving up early if they thought that some of the bugs in VE were not due to the developmental nature of the programming. --Jackson Peebles (talk) 22:46, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
59. Slow buggy version would be better though as I'm not sure how many people know what beta means, or frankly whether the v/e is really ready for beta testing yet. ϢereSpielChequers 22:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
60. Yes Otherwise, new users may come off with the impression that editing Wikipedia is always error prone and dysfunctional. Veterans may blindly trust the Visual Editor and not bother to check the edits to make sure they didn't break anything.—Love, Kelvinsong talk 22:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
61. Yes but as WereSpielChecquers points out, a lot of people don't know what "Beta" means. Perhaps you can explain that it is "a version that is being tested and is still not quite working perfectly", or a similar explanation. Invertzoo (talk) 22:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
62. Yes Seventh attempt (SEVEN edit conflicts!) - It would ensure editors are aware of potential problems doktorb _words^deeds 23:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
63. Yes, Of course. Why on earth would we hide or obfuscate this fact? Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
64. Yes, Of course. Editor must be warn it is beta. QED237 (talk) 23:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
65. Yes - Until the kinks can get worked out. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 23:16, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
66. Yes Yes, this is the minimum.— James Estevez (talk) 23:32, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
67. Yes - who wants to hide the fact that its still in development? B-watchmework (talk) 23:36, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
68. Yes And "Beta" should never be the default!
69. Needless to say. Everyking (talk) 23:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
70. Yes. I second answerer #1, Kww, who said “The "edit" button should explicitly say "beta editor" or something similar.” --Thnidu (talk) 23:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
71. Every piece of beta software should have this warning. Jguy _Talk^Done 00:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
72. Yes per above comments. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 00:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
73. Yes.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 00:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
74. Yes The "BETA" in the upper right-hand corner isn't that noticeable, so it should be replaced with a large, more prominent notice. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 00:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
75. Yes, that would be really helpful for the new guys! Prabash.Akmeemana 00:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
76. Beta is, by definition, testing. To not disclose this is unethical. Holdek (talk) 00:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
77. Yes it should have a warning about it being in beta. Corn cheese (talk) 00:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
78. YES/ From what I've read, it's a bloody waste of time. Let's just WRITE ARTICLES and let them sort it out...... (It says it might take 15 mins. to load a big article?: RUBBISH). Viva-Verdi (talk) 01:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
79. Yes are you telling me it is NOT beta? μηδείς (talk) 01:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
80. Yes - Trapping both loyal old and innocent fresh users into a half-baked adventure like VE without any warning is just not fair and ethical. ViswaPrabhaവിശ്വപ്രഭ^talk 01:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
81. No, nor should car manufacturers have to warn buyers about known major problems with motors or brakes. After all, none of us minds when software functions improperly or really slowly. Or when the clutch fails. hgilbert (talk) 02:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Suggestion: what if there were two tabs visible to every user: one for "edit WP source", the other for "edit in experimental visual editor". Something less clumsy and space-absorbing could be formulated, but this would offer clarity that (1) there are two options, and (2) exactly what each is about. hgilbert (talk) 14:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

82. Yes But the word "beta" on the tab is really all that's required. --j⚛e decker^talk 02:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
83. of course--otherwise you create a cliff in the fog situation!Nickholbrook (talk) 02:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
84. Yes The software obviously does not work properly and it would be wrong to suggest that this is a typical experience. Blue Rasberry (talk) 02:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
85. Yes - It's beta. Total no-brainer Rock4arolla (talk) 02:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
86. +1 — -dainomite   03:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
87. The edit button should be to wikipedia source (no "edit source"). The VE should identify itself as beta, if it has to have a tab. Better still to not have any tab unless users have opted in. — LlywelynII 03:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
88. Yes all beta software should be labeled such. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
89. Yes - The potential editor deserves to know before his or her computer is stuck for three and a half minutes loading an experimental program they weren't expecting to use. Nick1372 (talk) 04:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
90. Jclemens (talk) 06:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
91. Please. This is still in a very buggy phase. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 09:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
92. Obviously it needs to say that it's beta. Just think what the effect on editor retention would be if we presented as the default a buggy piece of software with no indication that it's beta! It doesn't need to be worded in a way to scare people off, contrary to some of the !votes against. Buggy software with no indication that it's beta seems more likely to scare users off. Sławomir Biały (talk) 09:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
93. Yes, even better, write it is alpha software. That's what it actually is. Anyway, editors should be warned from the start they're going to use an experimental gadget that is at risk of outputting garbage edits. -- cyclopia^speak! 10:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
94. Yes if it's in beta, it should be told... Redalert2fan (talk) 14:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
95. Yes seems only right to me... — MusikAnimal ^talk 14:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
96. Yes 'but' this isn't beta. It's alpha. Broken. Macktheknifeau (talk) 14:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
97. Yes unless you like frustrated users -- Safety Cap (talk) 15:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
98. Yes or a little stronger, mark it experimental. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
99. Yes, definitely. Also, the 'source edit' button should just be 'edit', and should be on the left where it's the first button people see. --Aquillion (talk) 15:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
100. Yes. Communicating simple information like this is IT 101. Why is this even a question? Jytdog (talk) 15:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
101. Yes. It's beta-grade software, there's no way around it. Kudu ^~I/O~ 17:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
102. Yes more zeta minus (i.e. fail) than beta - potential users need to know that there are serious problems. Arjayay (talk) 18:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
103. Yes, per Sandstein. it is not fun to find the page saved as <nowiki>[[example link]]</nowiki>
104. Yes, expectations should be set correctly in the editor's mind
105. Yes, editors should expect bugs. [Soffredo] 20:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
106. There already is a big fat beta together with a question mark and when first using it, a bubble appears. That's enough but it's prominent and explicit. -- Rillke (talk) 21:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Do not warn that it is beta software

1. Any warning should come after the user clicks on it. This isn't "abandon hope all ye who enter here" - it's perfectly OK to land in the pretty graphic-designed editor and see an ugly little line of red text "still being tested, report bugs _here_", and have that as your first and only warning. Wnt (talk) 19:50, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

   Except that the only warning present is a small "BETA" in the upper right-hand corner. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 00:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

2. Per Wnt. If the user does not want to press the "Save" button on a beta editor, they have had enough warning and it is easy enough to go the the text editor for any subsequent edits.OrangesRyellow (talk) 12:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
3. I have yet to experience any game-changing bugs with the Visual Editor, so a beta warning seems unnecessary. It works just fine even if it's slow. No need to pile on additional warnings. Keep the interface simple. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

   Have you tried making more difficult edits than just proofreading? VE is far from being ready for full deploy. The template editing function is horridly slow and counterproductive, even when you only want to correct a single number in an infobox, for example. It cannot properly handle citations, and it takes forever to fill in a cite web template in it. It really slows down the work of experienced editors. it takes me 30 seconds to type in a cite web citation by wikicode but takes 2-3 minutes to do the same in VE (and consider that my articles in huwiki contain 100+ references. Not funny job with VE...). None of the functions work flawlessly. I was happy to discover that it can finally handle images, which is a plus, but it takes ages to properly place and resize one, let alone add galleries. VE might be a start for really novice users who only want to write a paragraph with minimal formatting, add one source and maybe one photo, but it is, in its current form, a hinder for experienced editors and not a useful tool. I'm using it just for the sake of beta testing, if it were to be deployed permanently, I would opt out immediately. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 09:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

4. I'm with Wnt, which I guess puts me more in the "do warn" camp than the "do not warn" side, but I feel that the warning should not scare people off from editing, especially for new and IP editors who are most likely to be discouraged. Give the beta tag and a fallback to the text editor somewhere within the VisualEditor UI so editors know they have an option if something goes wrong (and they know where to submit bug reports), but don't treat it as a dangerous activity requiring a warning. Zachlipton (talk) 23:00, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
5. I agree with Wnt on this one, for the reasons he gives. We will never see how it works with new editors if we scare them away from it. DGG ( talk ) 23:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
6. The visual editor is in beta and this should be made clear, yes, but while there are many bugs, the editor is still entirely usable and is not in a state such that we need to scare users away from it. Just make the beta indication slightly more prominent and that'll be enough. Bugs that result in wrong wikitext are rare; what is much more common is editing bugs that make editing more difficult, and those aren't bad enough for us to keep the new editors away from the visual editor. Yes, it's slow. Yes, it has some editing bugs. But it isn't dangerous to use or harmful to the encyclopedia. We don't need to scare users away from it. -- Rastus Vernon (talk) 01:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
7. They should be aware of this when the choose to enable VE, so no further reinforcement is necessary. --Jasca Ducato (talk) 15:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of warning

• Remaining neutral for now. I think we should focus on real, actionable improvements that can be made to VisualEditor. This section actually somewhat heads in that direction, but I'm concerned that the RFC title ("Default State RFC") will drown out the signal in the noise. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:10, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• I find this question super vague and confusing. Is the warning supposed to be a pre-emptive warning, like the "edit" button would instead say "edit, but watch out!" (but more professional, obviously)? That seems to me to be both kind of unnecessary given that a post-click warning is feasible, and also unsightly to have posted all over every single wikipedia page. Is the warning supposed to be a warning after someone clicks on "edit" that says, "just so you know, this editor is in beta" somewhere that it would be seen before the editor clicks on "save page"? I think that's an excellent idea and I can't really imagine anyone being opposed to it as long as it was both clear and unobtrusive not garish. Is the warning a pop-up that shows up after you click edit but before you actually enter visual editor that says "are you sure you really want to edit with this slow piece of unstable software?!" That seems like it would discourage people from editing. This question is so vague that it's impossible to give a meaningful answer. AgnosticAphid talk 22:14, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• What I intended when writing the question was to have the actual button say "beta editor" or something similar. That's how most people seem to have interpreted it.—Kww(talk) 22:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Hm, well I can't honestly say that just having it say "beta editor | edit source" really seems very obtrusive. And certainly there should be a warning that it's in beta and there's bugs somewhere – even the oppose votes above seem to agree. But a "beta editor" warning is not very informative. A warning at the top of the actual VE page could be more descriptive. Or we could use a pop-up before the page is (slowly) loaded, but I really do think that a "WATCH OUT" pop-up is likely to result in a lot of "oh, nevermind"s. Nonetheless, I can't say that the question as posed seems to be drawing many responses that delve into these pretty crucial issues. AgnosticAphid talk 22:25, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

1. Faizan 13:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• This is a very strange question. The software already says that it's beta. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Question 5: Should the VisualEditor support basic wikimarkup shortcuts, such as '''bold''', ''italics'', and [[Link]]?

Current default behaviour is to use <nowiki> tags to present the wikimarkup as part of the article. See bug 49686. Users attempting to use wikimarkup in VisualEditor and having it not work is a major source of edits requiring cleanup afterwards.

Yes, using wikimarkup in VisualEditor should be supported.

1. A toggle switch could be used to turn off this support in the rare cases you actually want wikimarkup to display in the article. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 01:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
2. I understand the purism on display below but, since there is no time a user will want to use double/triple apostrophes or double brackets except for such formatting and since such formatting is easier and faster than wading through buttons and menus, yes, of course they should be supported. There's no reason to make something slower and less helpful just to make it "purer" WYSIWYG. Cf. WP:POINT. — LlywelynII 03:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
3. When a user types wikitext into the visual editor and saves the page, ask if they'd like the unrendered code to appear exactly as typed or if they'd like it to appear as formatted text and links in the saved page. — Pseudonymous Rex (talk) 05:44, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
4. Why else would someone type '', [[, or {{? Also because backwards compatibility is a good thing. ϢereSpielChequers 06:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
5. Yes, certainly as long as editors are still presented with wikimarkup in some circumstances (like editing template parameters) and other namespaces. It is totally unlogical to disallow wikimarkup in ne environment, but require it as the only option in another. Furthermore, the vast majority of square brackets (and certainly double square brackets) used in articles is intended as wikimarkup, not as "nowiki". Software shouldn't make the exception the default, but should make the most common usage the default. No opinion on other markup, since the problem is less pronounced there, but for square brackets, it is really hard to see the benefit of disallowing the use of them, certainly when this WYSIWYG editor is not a real one anyway, but a partial one... Fram (talk) 10:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
6. Yes - Especially for links and templates. This, along with on-the-fly rendering, could actually make VE very useful, once in a decent state. A toggle could be employed to disable the functionality. An added plus, especially but not only for beta testing, would be switching on the fly, with a click or keyboard combination, between Wikimarkup and visual rendering, to immediately see what's going on. -- cyclopia^speak! 10:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
7. Yes, this would improve accessibility considerably. Arguments based around "this won't make it a 'WYSIWYG' system" are fallacious: this RfC question is whether it should support these features, not replace the WYSIWYG system. — Richard BB 14:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
8. --Jasca Ducato (talk) 15:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
9. Yes unless they choose not to, because it is annoying when I use those shortcuts, and it doesn't work.Njaohnt (talk) 15:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
10. For some things allow this for wikilinks, and anything else where there isn't a standard keyboard shortcut. For bold/italics/etc, presumably people will be used to using Ctrl-B/I/etc and so won't continue to type wikimarkup after a short adjustment period. davidprior ^t/_c 15:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
11. Yes, always. Unifying user experience is a worthwhile goal, and there are many things that can't be accomplished without wikitext; the number of situations where people would want wikitext to display is vanishingly slim, and in those situations the user will probably know enough to use the visual editor and the nowiki tag. A button could be added to switch this on and off, but that would just make the visual editor even more hopelessly complicated by adding another widget to worry about. --Aquillion (talk) 15:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
12. Yes, of course. It speeds things up. They're going to write on their keyboard anyway, it's much faster to simply keep typing than to reach for the mouse and click on icons. JIP | Talk 16:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
13. Yes. I think this works well on wikia? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
14. Yes if we want to make VE a tool for everyone to use, and not just some training wheels before people move to the regular editor. The feature should be toggle-able, of course. Kudu ^~I/O~ 17:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
15. Yes for now, tho I think this should just be transitional. DGG ( talk ) 18:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
16. Yes but not just bold/italics/links but also (at the very least) table markup, <ref>...</ref> tags, images and templates. We have dozens - maybe hundreds - of help pages which describe how to do things using Wikimarkup. Regardless of which "edit" tab that they went for, or their reasons for choosing that tab, users should be able to copy the examples from help pages (amending where necessary, of course) and not screw up the page the instant that they save. Some notice it and fix it; others (either because they don't know how to fix, or simply don't notice) leave it for others like me to sort out. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

No, present all attempted wikimarkup as plain text.

1. I'm going to disagree on this one. 22dragon22burn (talk) 01:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
2. I hesitated on this one, but I think it's best to not keep the old editing habits of the wikitext editor. The visual editor should be as simple as possible and not have features that can confuse users. The Ctrl+I and Ctrl+B shortcuts are very well known as they are used in office suites, web page editors, forum software and everywhere else. While this could make the transition easier for experienced editors, it is not necessary. Experienced editors will get used to it and it will all in the end make the editor less confusing, which is a good thing. -- Rastus Vernon (talk) 01:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
3. It would no longer be a true WYSIWYG editor if this feature would be included. If it looks like a WYSWYG editor then it should also behave like one. --Frederico1234 (talk) 02:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
4. It annoys me that if i type a link it will come up as [[something like this]] but I agree, the editor should probably work like Microsoft Word or Livejournal or something...Neurosciency (talk) 03:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

   I can't understand why you feel that way: Whilst the Cntrl-B and such things should be supported as well, why should I have to give up wikitext habits just to see a visual representation? Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 03:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

5. If you want to write wiki code then don't use a visual editor, duh. Miqrogroove (talk) 03:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
6. agree--since purpose is to get people used to a new tool, every step in its use should be made obvious to us--experienced editors will devise rapid workarounds if they want, and not be hampered at all.Nickholbrook (talk) 02:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
7. Yes - If it's a direct visual editor, then everything should be interpreted and displayed as it was entered. Don't go all MicroSloth on us and start deciding what we 'really meant to type' for us. Rock4arolla (talk) 03:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
8. Per User:Frederico1234. You shouldn't attempt to have it both ways. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
9. I agree that using CTRL+I & CTRL+B is the way to go. Nick1372 (talk) 04:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
10. Per my comment in the discussion. — This, that and the other (talk) 07:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
11. No. A WYSIWYG editor should be that. It should not be a source editor. All aspects of editing need to be done through the visual interface. This is a basic software design principle. A word processor (like MS Word) is different from a text editor (like GNU Emacs). Sławomir Biały (talk) 09:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
12. No, there is already a warning message if you try to type certain wikimarkup (I think that was added very recently). That should be enough. --WS (talk) 14:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
13. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    •I feel you should do one or the other. If it's a visual editor, keep it entirely visual. As mentioned, we have the issue with the nowiki tags and links, perhaps this should be autocorrected to a normal link and not wrapped in nowiki. I mean, in the article space, how often does the editor actually want [[link]] and not link ? — MusikAnimal ^talk 15:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Commented out, since MA's proposal to autocorrect the brackets to links is the exact opposite side of the vote here and shouldn't count towards the people who precisely do want to see [[link]] link show up (presumably because they feel the editors should be trained not to do that and've forgotten about WP:POINT). — LlywelynII 18:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

14. I wish that VE had a toggle like Wordpress where you could switch from WYSIWYG to code views. In its current incarnation, allowing people to use Wikicode while looking at the plain text version of an article could create problems. Andrew³²⁷ 15:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
15. We'll have to learn how to deal with it, but those cuts are idiotic from a blank slate perspective. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
16. No, VE is substantially different than from the old style, a mix of those two should be definitely separate in my opinion. This works like so and so, that works like so and so. --Soetermans. T / C 15:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
17. I don't believe anyone starts contributing to Wikipedia with the idea that they also have to learn a specific syntax in order to do so. A novice user just wants to add information in a way similar to text messaging, email, or a word-processing document. Current users may be confused, but language (in the interface) and education can alleviate errant wikitext being entered. Ckoerner (talk) 16:15, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
18. --Tobias1984 (talk) 17:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
19. Developing it is a waste of time. Programmers have more useful things to do. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
20. No, this proposal completely misses the KISS principle that the VE has basically been developed upon. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 18:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
21. No - except link provided WP:OVERLINK is explanied - I spend excessive time de-bolding and de-capitalizing articles. New editors tend to try and make their point by over-emphasis. Arjayay (talk) 19:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of wikimarkup shortcuts

• I certainly think making VE not "understand" the wacky multiple-apostrophe syntax is most welcome: Ctrl+I and Ctrl+B are very well-known and widely-used shortcuts that make so much more sense. As for links [[, though, I'm not so sure. Those double square brackets are nice to have. — This, that and the other (talk) 01:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I can see absolutely no reason why both shouldn't be options, when this not being supported is the second biggest source of page mangling in VE after tables. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 03:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, number of nowiki insertions are now about 7 in last 500 edits (about 10 an hour). Of the 7, one is from page vandalism. One is a known bug in VE. Two are from inserting spaces (which VE might fix in the UI). Only three are wikitext insertions. So, while 3 in 500 is not insignificant, this is no longer as big a number as it once was. Ssastry (talk) 15:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I see the reason of it, but it's not worth the effort IMO. The problem is it's less work and faster to use ctrl shortcuts than typing the apostrophes. If I'm italicizing lot of terms of one whole column in a large table, I usually just copy and paste the 2 apostrophes instead of typing it directly. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 07:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• My own feelings: The wikilink shortcut is probably a good idea but I doubt the italic/bold shortcuts are. Roughly speaking, a lot of new editors will use apostrophes not intending wikisyntax, but I doubt double-left-square-bracket is going to be particularly common. More importantly, I'm not !voting above because I believe that this is a question for which a best answer can be determined by testing. This is a place for user science, not voting. --j⚛e decker^talk 02:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

  My own feelings: there's not actually any time an editor should be using double and triple apostrophes (which is why they're employed in the first place), so there is no confusion involved. — LlywelynII 03:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

  You might be right, I'd expect some less technical editors to try double-apostrophe for double-quote. But data will show either way. --j⚛e decker^talk 18:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Some people are opposing this because it is a WYSIWYG editor. But it isn't, of course. Try to add or change a link in a gallery, or in a template parameter (or perhaps some other places), and you still need wikimarkup. Try to add a link elsewhere, and the very same wikimarkup gives you a warning and isn't allowed. This is counterintuitive and counterproductive, since 99% of the double square brackets are placed to be wikilinks, but all of them are nowikied by default. As long as, even in the mainspace, people are required to use wikilinks (double square brackets) in some instances, they should be allowed in all instances. Fram (talk) 14:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
• This is a good question, but it digresses from the main issue of the RfC, which is about enabling/electing VE rather than what features VE ought to support. There is probably a better venue for feature requests. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
• Since this is here (albeit possibly misplaced), here is my 2c: I understand that this functionality might be difficult to code. So instead, just give me a preference option that disables <nowiki> tags in VE altogether. The preview will still show the wikimarkup in the article text, but when I click save it will parse into the source. No additional computational overhead, and completely trivial to code. If I have a difficult pipe or whatever that I need to preview, then I can use the VE tool or go to source editing. VQuakr (talk) 19:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
• What does this have to do with the default state of VE? Legoktm (talk) 20:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Appended Proposals

1. That visual editor, it its present form, should NOT be made available to unregistered users, and that it should not be made available to anonymous IP users in the future, without a community-wide discussion & vote.

2 Reasons for this:

i)The software isn't ready; not even close...

ii)Even (if/)when the software improves enough, we shouldn't make it that easy for unregistered users to mess about in the article space.

Support -- as drafter of this proposal (which doesn't seem to have been included among the options, anywhere in the original text) Lx 121 (talk) 15:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose -- reason ii is not in the spirit of what a wiki should be about. yes unregistered users do vandalize, but they also become future users of the wiki. We shouldn't scare new users away. Oldag07 (talk) 15:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Weak Oppose, I've seen them do good work, VE has a potential. Prabash.Akmeemana 15:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose on the basis that I believe the second point is incorrect. Ease of access is important for all contributors, anonymous ones included. You still have to hit an edit button as well; it's not as if you can just put your insertion point in and just start typing and auto-save your changes as you go. Why should unregistered users have a hard time trying to contribute? That's what prevents them from becoming registered users and actively contributing. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 15:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree but everyone should be allowed to choose how they want to edit, I've edited here before my account in 2004 and Im far to used to the code appearance than VE's on screen editor. Prabash.Akmeemana 15:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Strong Oppose. Neither Wikipedia nor VE is an exclusive club, where ID is needed at the door. As always, any unregistered IP editors should get a polite notice welcoming them to WP and an offer to register. As for any increased vandalism, there are also set guidelines for that as well. — Wyliepedia 15:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Strong oppose. I'm not for the VE myself, but if it would be implemented, then it shouldn't be a registered user only thing. It is still in development (see beta discussions), and not without its flaws, but that's no reason to withhold it from anon users. If anything, the input of everyday kinda viewers and edits should be welcomed, not made more difficult. Concerning vandalism, that is still an issue here on Wikipedia, I don't see why VE would make it easier somehow. --Soetermans. T / C 15:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Strong oppose. Why should knowing code be a condition to sharing info, or even trying to improve? And who does have total knowledge? How much effort is put into correcting code, designing new templates, sharing tricks, and simply asking “how”? How many articles have more corrections than actual input? Is protecting a geek hobby really necessary?Sammy D III (talk) 17:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Strong oppose. The "war on unregistered users" is completely unwarranted, there's no reason not to let them opt into features. Kudu ^~I/O~ 17:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose - I think VE is a pile of steaming junk, but even I oppose this idea. After all, unregistered users and brand-new users are who the VE is for - take VE away from them, and you may as well bin it altogether (which I wouldn't oppose, personally; but that's irrelevant to this subthread) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:25, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose - the whole point of VE is to retain new editors. What is the point of it otherwise? What is the point of this stupid proposal? Dumbass. Richard75 (talk) 17:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment – Per my comments above: this, right here, is the problem we have with retaining new users. It has nothing to do with supposed 'difficulties' with plaintext editing.

As for the other posters above, I believe that it would be warranted to nix functions that massively expanded vandalism on the site, but I think the evidence so far is that there hasn't been (much? any? of) a spike since this went live. But maybe that low rate's just because the editor's currently so buggy... ;) — LlywelynII 18:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose Per everyone above. Absolutely tedious idea. Insulam Simia (talk) 19:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment I find this really hard to answer, as your question is 2 questions in one. Personally, I don't think the VE should be available to anons in its present form. Once the major problems are ironed out though, I think it should become widely available to everyone, including IP users. If, and only if, it is shown that having the VE available to anonymous users causes a increase in vandalism, then we should have a conversation about whether or not to allow IP users to be able to use the VE. ALH (talk) 20:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Strong oppose I find it disgusting that the second reason was suggested. I don't think it corresponds at all to the general values of the Wikimedia community. The whole idea behind Wikipedia was to create an encyclopedia that anyone could edit; if we scare new users away and intentionally don't add features that could make it easier for them to edit just because we don't want them to vandalize, then we're assuming bad faith and we're preventing them from becoming experienced and active editors that contribute regularly. I also think the first reason is incorrect: obviously, VisualEditor isn't ready, but saying that it isn't close to being ready is (in my opinion) exaggerating. It will not be ready tomorrow, but it will certainly be ready in a year, and even in some months. It is already completely usable right now, and if the admittedly astonishing number of bugs was lowered and some important features (table editing in particular) were added, then it could be said to almost be ready. Obviously that can be done in less than 6 months, surely in much less than that, and hopefully soon. -- Rastus Vernon (talk) 21:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment: I totally disagree with the second reason given, but: I think that the push by the WMF to introduce the Visual Editor early despite its faults and shortcomings is based on a misunderstanding of what the main problem for new editors nowadays is: It's not the user interface. The main problem lays deeper, at the content level, and there's not really a fix for it. Wikipedia simply has grown a lot and is now offering at least reasonably useful content for the majority of everyday subjects people are looking for; e.g. whether you want an article about bread, Beethoven, the sun, or dolphins, you get one. In the beginning of Wikipedia, the typical user encountered many glaring gaps, many of which were quite easy to fill, which was a great incentive for contributing. There are still lots of gaps, of course, many articles to write and many to improve, but it's getting harder because the still missing content is often harder to research and there are higher quality standards. So, if you don't feel compelled to contribute at all because there's already an article on the subject you were looking up, or if you feel that it would be too hard to research something missing (e.g. historical facts about a lesser known American town which aren't online), a Visual Editor will not change this at all. To summarize - the "issue of new editors" is a content issue, not an interface issue! Gestumblindi (talk) 21:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

2. That visual editor should be shelved completely, and things go back to how they were before.

Reasons for this:

What is wrong with the old system? I came back to Wikipedia after some time off and was shocked...shocked at this new visual editor thing. My first edits were asking what exactly this was at the Reference Desk. It was bewildering. I read on the WP:VE page that the developers thought that Wikimarkup somehow was too complex and "wouldn't do in 2013" or something to that effect. I don't know why, aren't kids today even more tech-savvy then they were in 2001? This Visual editor thing just seems to be another example of the "dumbing down" of society in general. We should just can VE, and have the traditional editing the only kind available. Herzlicheboy (talk) 17:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I strongly agree with you. I don't think that Wikipedia need any VE - we've successfully created articles for many years, so why should we change anything?--Soul Train (talk) 18:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

1. Agreed - It's a huge POS, frankly. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 18:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
2. Agreed Please put the visual computer crasher out of its misery. petrarchan47tc 19:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
3. Totally Agree far too much time and money has already been spent on this, but we know WMF are so intent upon it, that they will not listen. Arjayay (talk) 19:15, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
4. Agree WYSIWYG is no good. (If you do decide to keep Visual Editor: Make it an option on the registration form, leave it disabled by default for existing users, and for anonymous users show a "edit visual" and "edit source" tabs) --Zzo38 (talk) 19:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
5. Agree VE just doesn't have the abilities that "Edit Source" has. buffbills7701 19:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. While VE is certainly not yet ready, nor even close, it does have potential. If there was a functional form of VE, it would be nice to have as another option at the very least. I have confidence that WMF will get it right eventually. Not everyone is technically savvy, and even non-technically savvy people should have the ability to productively edit the wiki. Tazerdadog (talk) 19:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

What is the problem with something new, if the old is left in place? It is not a replacement (yet), they are parallel. I'm not using VE, but don't object to others using it. Why not just ignore it?Sammy D III (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose - The VE would be really nice if done correctly, but unfortunately, that isn't currently the case. While I don't think it's usable now, which is why I haven't logged an edit with it, once they fix some of the bugs and glitches, I'd be more than willing to try it out again. All the time and money spent on it makes just trashing it now even more wasteful. TCN7JM 19:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

1. Agree. The wheel wasn't round enough, huh? Gotta reinvent it? Niteshift36 (talk) 20:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
2. Oppose. They aren't mutually exclusive, so why should we drop one? Someone might have a taste for the VE. Personally, I'm sticking with the source editor, and the only improvement I would like to see is a color-coding system to make is easy to distinguish prose from comments and ref tags.Kurzon (talk) 20:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
3. Agree. VE will create cascading problems related to vandalism and introducing new users to serious editing. The system will require significant readjustment, which will be nothing but a massive waste of time. - ☣Tourbillon ^A ? 21:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
4. Agree. The Visual Editor is idiotic. Bootyshorts71 (talk) 21:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - This particular RfC is pointless. We already know how much of damn the WMF give about what the users think; and they're certainly not going to shelve this, and they wouldn't even if they bowed to the consensus with everything else. In fact, asking them to do so is borderline absurd. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

1. Agree, the original editor was fine on its own, and VisualEditor is a buggy mess. WikiRedactor (talk) 21:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose, even with the bugs, I find simple edits (adding items to lists, typos) to be much simpler with the Visual Editor. Once it's fixed, it could be the simple WYSIWYG method for average users. Kupiakos (talk) 21:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

3. Visual editor should display two editing panes by default, one WYSIWYG pane and a smaller pane for source code editing.

Reasons for this:

This two-window arrangement would be familiar to anyone who has used WordPerfect, in which your page is shown in the upper pane and a smaller snippet of 'source code' appears in the lower pane. You can edit in either pane, going to the lower pane to tweak special codes for formatting, tags, etc. as needed. The cursor/caret in one pane always follows the other, auto-scrolling as required.

This arrangement has three obvious advantages:

• You can edit in either environment as needed simply by clicking your mouse in one pane or the other. There is no question about choice of editor; you use either one based on your comfort level as the situation requires. Either editor by itself lacks the advantage of simple switching to another without a long wait while the page re-loads. A two-pane solution doesn't have that problem.
• Newbie editors will quickly learn Wiki-markup by seeing instantly how source code and WYSIWYG are related, in real time as the user edits.
• Two panes eliminate the need for a "Preview" function to re-load a page just to see the effect of your source-code editing. The WYSIWYG pane is the preview pane, so you can edit freely in the source code pane and instantly see the results.

I find the Visual Editor cumbersome right now. If it had the capability to display the corresponding source as I edit, and let me click on that source to edit if I preferred, that would be great. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

If this can be done in an intuitive manner, which i doubt, then this is a great idea. However, I'm not sure that this is technically possible. Note that editing either pane really does have to affect the other. (ie fixing a typo in the visual interface has to alter the text in the wikitext environment, and adding aa template in the wikitaxt environment has to result in the template popping up fully rendered in the WYSIWYG environment. This does not seem to be easy to do technically. Tazerdadog (talk) 20:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Take it from me, it is technically feasible if the right data structure is chosen for the text buffer, the visual render and the text render are then just windows on that buffer. What appears to be happening is that the edit buffer and the display buffer are one and the same thing and dual displays (and I include inline templates) cannot be done. From what we have seen there was little thought about this before coding started and the coders are boxed in. It is common for coders to want to demonstrate results early on, when in real life there will be nothing to show for months and it will all come together in the last few days. Similarly the need for this facility would have been quickly established if the functional requirements of actual power users had be sought- a process that precedes drawing up the functional specification in most software development paradigms.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 21:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Surely this proposal makes things even more cumbersome, and you're left with the worst of both worlds? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Wrong questions?

I think these are the wrong questions. I don't think it is a matter of whether VE should be opt in or opt out. I think that both editors can and should be visible and available to every user, but it should be clear to everyone what they are, and they should not be easily accidentally confused or inadvertently mis-selected. Most of this is easily done. Make the edit links permanently visible, and label them unambiguously. Add a mouse-over message to each describing what it is, and what its problems are, with a link to a detailed help page and leave them there. Use whichever you prefer. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 16:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• I agree. I've not had the time or inclination to even find out what it does, but the little I've seen inclines me to be an opt out if it comes to the crunch. It does seem to make finding things easier, but I've not yet worked how to do things once I've found them... Peridon (talk) 17:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Completely agree with you.···Vanischenu^「m/_Talk」 17:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• I disagree; VE should be opt-in or opt-out (ie, one of the two), and I strongly oppose Pbsouthwood's comment that both editors "should" be visible to every user. Users should be able to choose which editor to use, and should be able to disable the editor they have no intention of using - long-term, this theoretically means that people may opt to disable the source editor (when VE is feature complete and stable, which may be a long way away) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I must be missing something. I see "edit" and "edit source" tabs, and mouse to the one I choose. Maybe a preference is in order, but I can deal with four vs. three tabs, and I'm impaired. Sammy D III (talk) 18:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Well, when I first saw this, I clicked on "edit", not knowing the difference, and I'm a fairly experienced user who had some idea VE was coming. The 4 vs 3 thing is not remotely my point anyway; a user should have free reign over whether they use the VE, the source, or both, and, long-term, they should be given the ability to disable the VE or the source editor completely. And if anyone files out the ridiculous "the resources used are miniscule, so it doesn't matter" comment... well, they clearly don't understand how programming works (a hint: never waste resources that can be easily saved!) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

A better question may be: "What needs to be done before VE is set as the default?" This way we could get input on what issues need to be changed/fixed before VE is the default.--Canoe1967 (talk) 18:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• @Pbsouthwood, Peridon, and Vanischenu: you might be interested in James's proposal here. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 18:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) 99% of the time I do section editing and don't use the tabs. At the time I disabled VE (July 10th) the choices at the section level were "edit" which went to the VE, and then hover which brought up "edit source" which is the wikitext editor. I did not see an obvious "edit source" from within VE. After repeatedly getting the VE when I wanted wikitext editing I disabled VE. I disagree strongly with Lukeno94's position. I want both options available to me without needing to do extra work. Showing "[edit] and [edit source]" at the section level should not cause long lasting confusion and allows people to use the the editor that's appropriate at that instant. --Marc Kupper|talk 18:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Marc, with Firefox and nothing disabled, I get both tabs on sections. Talk is different, edit gets me code, but that's just a name glitch, isn't it?Sammy D III (talk) 19:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Question — what is the point of asking users to opt in or out if they do not know what it is they are opting into or out of? Whatever options users are given need to be accompanied by a clear, accurate and authoritative statement of what the two options entail. I have yet to see such a thing. Spectral sequence (talk) 20:15, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oh, come on, it's obvious; the question is whether VE should be enabled by default, where you opt-out, or whether it should be disabled by default, where you opt-in. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

My biggest concern

I am very concerned that this editing interface is being developed to one day be the only editing method with only administrators being authorized to edit source code! That would be ruinous in my opinion and my concerns were spawned at seeing "edit source" chosen for source code editing; especially with this being the exact language use for protected articles which only admins can edit. I would really like to see an unequivocal assurance that this is not even a possibility! :) John Cline (talk) 18:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Things like that do concern me with other systems, but it doesn't seem like something Wikipedia would do. Still, assurance that it won't be administrators only would help everyone. --Zzo38 (talk) 19:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Who would give that assurance? Admins, the same people whose future actions give us doubt to start with? Zzo38 may be extreme, but your answer doesn't really help him, does it?. Sammy D III (talk) 20:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

This really is a discussion that belongs on the the talk page, but I can assure you that no one has informed me of any such plan, and it does seem unlike anything that WMF would force on us.—Kww(talk) 20:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I may have mixed John and ZZ's names up, but I get the idea. Why would someone inform you if they were going to take advantage of you? "seem unlike anything"? Right. I used to trust... Sammy D III (talk) 20:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Who would you like that assurance from John? I'm sure that could be arranged. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 21:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• James and Erik have, I think, already made assurances on this topic, but let me add mine: we have zero plans to switch off source editing. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
• Restricting wikitext to administrators is just as ridiculous in my opinion as preventing new editors from using VisualEditor so that they cannot vandalize as easily. I am completely against both, though it appears there are more people against the former than against the latter. -- Rastus Vernon (talk) 21:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)