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Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Competence and civility issues with Koala15

• Koala15 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

My latest encounter with Koala15 was on the Ted 2 page, where I fixed a fairly simple grammatical error [1] and was blankly reverted on sight [2]. I reverted back with the summary "Unexplained" [3] and he kept edit warring with the summary "Go home, your [sic] drunk" [4]. This happened again, until General Ization issued an EW warning on my talk page, and a civility warning [5] on Koala15's page. Koala15 repeatedly refused to apologize or even acknowledge that he was edit warring, dismissing General Ization with sentences such as "Have a sense of humor" and "There is no need for you to get so worked up over this", assuring him that he matter had been resolved, when in fact, it was not - and still is not. I explained very clearly on my talk page why I performed said edit, which prompted Koala15 to respond with a guideline that directly contradicts his edit - which I also explained. However, he refuses to "get it", while writing replies on the grammar level of a twelve year old - which I extensively tried to explain within the same discussion, examples being seeing him "use patently incorrect expressions like "more clearer", open a sentence with "hence", miss punctuation, or consistently not capitalize "I" as in first person", not to mention his first reply to me via edit summary: "Go home, your drunk".

A quick look on Koala15's talk page will reveal that he has been taunting other editors for a while, in an abrasive and unapologetic manner. A few select examples: User talk:Koala15#Reversions... [6], User talk:Koala15#July 2015 [7], User talk:Koala15#No [8], User talk:Koala15#Redirecting [9]. Another example of insisting on edit warring and being rude is here. I would like to finish this nuisance on the Ted 2 page and move on, but I would like to ensure that he doesn't spite revert me again. Please take care of this matter. Wikipedia isn't supposed to be about this at all. Thank you very much. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 20:38, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Well i tried to work with you, but you don't seem to wanna work with me. Most of the things you are linking from my talk page are simple misunderstandings. And i don't think you can report anyone for a 'lack of competence". Koala15 (talk) 21:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

How ironic... you have just given another dismissive and offensive reply. You are either not realizing it or deliberately insulting me, and neither case is welcome on Wikipedia. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 21:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I have had my own run-ins with Koala15, which can be seen at Talk:Penguins of Madagascar and Penguins of Madagascar. Koala15 had initially participated in WP:OWNBEHAVIOR over a copyedit tag about the article with a reason saying "And i do think an IP's suggestion is less valid, cause the majority of them are vandals.". Not all IPs are vandals. Some contribute with no issues at all. I find that comment uncivil and rather a POV statement. They persistently removed the tag until they reached 3 reverts. They stayed quiet on the article, but they removed it again but this time with reasons but not valid ones. There was still WP:Consensus going on in the talk page, which Koala15 dismissed. Instead of participating in WP:Discussion and ask for opinions, they removed the template again. I reverted them, stating that they weren't the user who added the template and to remove it from a user who disagreed with it in the beginning is very questionable. They started edit warring, making 5 reverts within a span of 12 hours, I believe. If they reached the 6th revert, I was going to report them. My warnings can be seen on the user's talk page and PfM's talk page. In terms of Koala15, I do think they make good edits and they help the community, but my only concern is the way they act. Upon disagreements they edit war and so on, it seems. I do agree that saying a user is drunk is uncivil as much as saying to a user they need help. It seems they have had run-ins with other people, excluding me, EauZenCashHaveIt and General Ization. I would suggest a warning about continuing disruptive editing but I'm not sure. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 21:34, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Well i apologize, i shouldn't have removed those maintenance templates without asking. And i don't think its fair to say i participated in WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. Koala15 (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Per one of the bullets, "An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental." You removed the template with this reasoning: "Uhm, yeah no." which certainly counts as you saying it's unnecessary without valid reasons and follows on of the statements "I can see nothing wrong with the article and there is no need to change anything at all." which you've given the impression (not even at this point) since the beginning and on the talk page. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 22:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• Note for reviewing admins: here's the last "clean" version of Koala15's talk page, before he panicked and blanked it in order to invalidate the links I brought up earlier: [10]. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 21:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, it was time they cleaned their talk page (no offense, Koala15). It was so long, over 200 posts. They kept some stuff, so I don't think it would really matter since it's their talk page. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 22:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The timing though... anyway, I've said too much already. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 22:18, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• First, 200 posts going all the way back to 2012 probably needs archiving (and no, archiving isn't just blanking all the warnings) but that's not the issue here. Second, Wikipedia:Competence is required which includes social competency. Koala15's edits are problematic. Insulting and being uncivil is a concern. Individuals who cannot corroborate effectively have been shown the door before. I'd say there's civility here but I'll let some others chime on what they think should be done. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:50, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Having had run-ins with Koala15 before, some of which have been referenced in this post, I thought I'd also chime in. While their edits themselves are not disruptive or problematic, aside from a lack of edit summary usage, Koala15's conduct towards other users is condescending, patronizing and downright rude in some cases. On multiple occasions I have been told by the user that I don't understand Wikipedia, ("You don't understand the guidelines") and that I'm a newbie who interprets policies wrong ("I understand that you are new here, but you seem to lack a simple understanding of the rules of Wikipedia."), which if anyone else has been on the receiving end of, would know that it's incredibly frustrating. Initially I thought I was the only one to be scolded as deluded by Koala15, but apparently I'm not the only one. A quick CNTRL+F searching for the word "understand" on an old revision of their talk page shows three distinct immediate instances where Koala15 downplayed other editors, brushing them off as not understanding some aspect of the project: I'm not even gonna bother responding to this nonsense, cause you clearly don't even have a basic understanding of Wikipedia., "Once again you show that you don't understand the guidelines." and "It sounds like you don't understand Wikipedia." and "You are possibly the most clueless editor i have ever met.". While Koala15's talk page only showed a few instances of their incivility, I imagine I wasn't the first to be insulted on their talk page or via edit summaries. A block doesn't seem appropriate to me, and would quite possibly chase Koala15 away, given how bitter and angry they already come off with a near-clean block log, but an assurance from the user that the'll try and be more civil and get off their high horse would be nice. Azealia911 _talk 10:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Koala15 care to respond? Azealia911 _talk 10:13, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Well its easy to take my quotes out of context and try to me make me look bad, but in the context of the conversation they were more or less facts. Either way you seem like a good editor, it just took you a while to fully understand the guidelines. Which is fine, it took me a while when i first joined Wikipedia. Koala15 (talk) 15:03, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh Koala15, you really are being serious aren't you? You're not even trolling, sigh. I guess that means no chance of an apology for being rude and condescending? (the latter of which is ironically displayed in your most recent reply). Azealia911 _talk 17:21, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Well its definitely not my intention to be "rude and condescending" that's just how I talk. I think its really a matter of how you choose to interpret my words. In the future, i will try to be more thoughtful with my reply's since it bothers everyone so much. Now hopefully we can put this whole thing behind us and move on. Koala15 (talk) 18:12, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

No, we can't... at least not while you maintain these dismissive and unapologetic replies. Each and every one of those reinforces the incompetence claim. You've been told the same thing by everyone here: apologize, show genuine regret, and we will move on. Your telling everyone to move on while sarcastically dismissing every concern raised on this page is nothing short of offensive. Notice that it's you who keeps brushing off every opportunity to make things right. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 23:54, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I second EauZenCashHaveIt's comments, completely accurate. Koala15, your replies just demonstrate what everyone here is trying to tell you, you just seem to not be hearing us, replying with the behavior and tone that landed you here. Back handed comments like "Either way you seem like a good editor, it just took you a while to fully understand the guidelines" don't do anything but frustrate me, and "I think its really a matter of how you choose to interpret my words" is absurd, so it's our fault for getting offended at what you say? "i will try to be more thoughtful with my reply's since it bothers everyone so much" you say, acting as if we're burdening you with actually being...nice?! Maybe take responsibility for your actions, genuinely apologize (which you have yet to do) and maybe then we can move on. Azealia911 _talk 18:48, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I thought i did apologize. But yes i apologize if i offended anyone, that was definitely not my intention. Hopefully we can move on now. Koala15 (talk) 18:55, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for apologising Koala15, yep, that's all I needed, take care. Azealia911 _talk 19:06, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

jeez a bit hypocritical to talk about incivility when you're saying he has the grammar of a 12 year old. and why would you care about grammar on the internet anyway? poli 19:00, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I was wondering when the usual devil's advocate would make their appearance. This is an encyclopedia, grammar is a basic requirement here. And most importantly: while Azealia may or may not have gotten their apology, the general issue is still unresolved. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 19:50, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

obsessing over grammar is so pretentious. i promise you're not smarter than anyone else here so chill. poli 22:34, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Would you like your name to be added to the report? EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 00:32, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

that's so petty. smh poli 02:22, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• EauZenCashHaveIt, what exactly are you looking to happen? Koala15 has apologized and said that they will be more thoughtful with their conduct. I say leave it, we've given them the rope, its their choice to hang themselves with more rudeness, land back here, and ultimately be blocked, or lasso their next edits with both hands (yes, that is literally the only analogy I could think of for positive things to do with rope). What else would you propose? Azealia911 _talk 19:14, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

@Azealia911: I am looking for a more permanent solution than an obviously insincere apology with no indication of any behavioral change. But hey, if there are no takers then I guess we both have better things to do than bark up that tree. If you are satisfied then I won't say anything, at least until something new happens. Sadly, I have a feeling I am not mistaken. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 19:30, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

EauZenCashHaveIt I can also see us returning here, but that's up to Koala15. If required, bring it back here and I'll be the first to recommend implications. Azealia911 _talk 16:31, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

• To me, Koala15's contribution to this new discussion on their Talk page suggests that Koala15 has learned nothing from this process. Still arbitrarily removing maintenance templates from articles without participating in the discussions they reference, a behavior just recently discussed with them here. General Ization ^Talk 18:34, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Christ, didn't take them long, I really did think they'd be more considerate. General Ization what do you suggest doing? Azealia911 _talk 18:51, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I really don't know. I know I spent more time than I could really afford to trying to explain to them why this is a problem on their Talk page and here, and what mostly comes back is from the editor is I didn't hear that. I really think it's a competence issue. General Ization ^Talk 18:57, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Definitely seems like the case, considering their edits aren't specific to one or one set of pages, perhaps a short term block would be appropriate. Azealia911 _talk 19:15, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, i make mistakes like everyone else, Jeez, i didn't realize my every edit would be under a microscope. Its also strange that you have my talk page watchlisted. Koala15 (talk) 21:25, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Everyone whose edits cause them to be brought to this page will find their subsequent edits to be "under a microscope" for some period of time, especially while the case is unresolved. Most at least make an effort to not engage in the same behaviors during that time. And it's not strange at all – your Talk page was placed on my watch list when you and I discussed the matter above. General Ization ^Talk 21:29, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

It was my bad, i didn't know what the statute of limitations was on page a split discussion that had no responses. I realized it was a mistake after i did it. I will refrain from making edits like that in the future. I go on Wikipedia for fun, and i'm not here to start trouble or anything like that. I'm gonna try to stay out of things like this and mind my own business. Koala15 (talk) 21:42, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Since the template was just placed this month (and says so within the template as any reader sees it), you might reasonably have assumed it had not expired; if you were unsure, you could click the Discuss link and ask. Your "No need for a discussion" comment linked above shows either a lack of understanding or contempt for editing processes here, not confusion over an expiration date. General Ization ^Talk 21:58, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Since Koala15 has decided to play possum, I am asking the patrolling admins to make the appropriate decision here. This discussion cannot simply vanish as stale. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 20:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm definitely seeing Koala15's edits as problematic after going through the diffs. No specific action has been proposed yet, but there may be some lingering hope Koala can improve. My first thought was to just close this with the closer stating that if this kind of issue happens again, that would expedite a block by linking back to that decision. A short term block could be used instead of essentially a warning, but both would take a WP:ROPE approach. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:16, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Kingofaces43 EauZenCashHaveIt, I'd be more lenient to go with a short-block, maybe as short as two weeks. Earlier on this post, I urged nothing to happen, giving Koala15 the rope, and within two days they were removing merger notices and playing the old apologetic "I'll never do it again" card, when it had been discussed with them before. I'm not sure how many times Koala15 expects us to take their fake apologies before doing anything. The block may be the wake-up call they need to understand their attitude and actions won't be at all tolerated. Azealia911 _talk 17:28, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Azealia911. In fairness, Koala15 has in fact seemed to "stay out of things like this and mind [their] own business" (as they put it above) for the past week or so, but without a real understanding by Koala15 of why their (past) behavior is a problem, all it will take is one editor to object to/revert one of their edits (rightly or wrongly) and I expect we'll be right back here again. I haven't heard or seen anything here that makes me think that understanding exists as yet. General Ization ^Talk 20:51, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 23:03, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

My experience with Koala15 at Penguins of Madagascar was similar to User:Tokyogirl79's [11] in February. This wasn't a controversial topic or sensitive BLP. The article's about a movie that features talking commando penguins. After some edits to it I later added a tag regarding prose issues and a thousand-word quotefarm plus explained the tag on the Talk page. Koala reverts with a derisory summary. I restore days later due to the encyclopedic text and non-free content concerns and post on his talkpage: Koala responds dismissively and immediately undoes my edit as vandalism. Only after multiple other editors become involved does he finally visit the Talk page.

He engages in IDHT--continuing to say he doesn't see the problem ("as far as I know this is how the majority of reception sections are written") and asking for suggestions on to how to fix it--despite multiple editors having already provided them, edit-wars over the tag, plus adds quoteboxes making the quotefarm even more glaring. We assume good faith and spend time explaining. Only later to discover it's all happened before. –146.200.32.196 (talk) 14:38, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposed short-term block for Koala15

I'll repeat a comment I made above, earlier in this post, I urged nothing to happen to Koala15, giving them the "rope", and within two days they were removing merger notices and playing the old apologetic "I'll never do it again" card, when the same issue had been discussed with them before. I'm not sure how many times Koala15 expects us to take their fake apologies before doing anything. A block may be the wake-up call they need to understand their attitude and actions won't be at all tolerated. The amount of said block can be determined by whoever closes the post.

Pinging all past contributors who may not keep track of the post: EauZenCashHaveIt, General Ization, Callmemirela, Ricky81682, Kingofaces43, Politoed89, and most importantly Koala15.

• Support as proposer – recommending a 2-4 week block. Azealia911 _talk 01:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Striking my support, may sound odd considering I'm the proposer. I've decided to give Koala15 one last chance, their recent behavior has seemed less aggressive and more open to discussion. Weather that lasts is up to them, but I firmly believe they'll reduce their negativity on the site for the foreseeable future. But this isn't an oppose, I'm staying neutral, I think comments from both sides are equally valid. Azealia911 _talk 22:25, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support per preceding thread. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 01:28, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support per proposer's comments (thanks) and my comments above. General Ization ^Talk 01:32, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I don't see why you guys are so against giving me another chance to redeem myself. I admit I made a few mistakes, but I don't think we should overlook all of the good work I have done on here in the past few years. I genuinely promise to have a better attitude when communicating with other editors. I look forward to working with you all again in a positive way. Koala15 (talk) 02:44, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

No one's against your having, or denying you, a chance to redeem yourself. If we were, we would be proposing an indefinite block (which none of us think is appropriate at this time). You will hopefully redeem yourself in any case. But it's precisely because you're thinking of this matter as so trivial that a block is appropriate. Many editors who produce good edits but cannot collaborate constructively with other editors have been blocked before you and many will be blocked after you. Assuming our proposal is implemented, please spend at least some of the time actually reading the many Wikipedia policies and guidelines we have tried over several weeks to get you to consider carefully. General Ization ^Talk 02:52, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why a block is necessary, I'm not gonna learn anything that i already haven't. I am gonna make a change in my behavior on here from this day on. And if you catch me breaking any rules, than block me. Take me at my word on this one. Koala15 (talk) 03:02, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

To me, this attitude right here is the epitome of your problem. You don't get to tell us what is necessary and what is not necessary. You can ask, you can argue your case, or anything else that is genuinely collaborative. You are still trying to take the lead and dictate the outcome. This is why the block is proposed. Azealia911, General Ization and others - I am not sure how else I can put it. @Chillum: this should address your concern. Nothing has changed. Literally, nothing. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 06:51, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Neutral. I have no preference on a short term block either way. It's clear that this editor will be back to editing in awhile even if they were blocked, so the the important thing for this conversation is to show that they are sitting on their last chance per WP:ROPE if the issue comes up again. Sometimes ANI closures aren't clear on this, so as long as that point gets across, I'm content with just closing this as such. A block will demonstrate that as much as a well-worded close (and may be warranted given the continued behavior that popped up, but I'm not digging further into this to evaluate that), so I'm fine either way. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:07, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The block would not be preventative at this point in my opinion. If anyone can explain how it would be preventative I will gladly reconsider. Chillum 03:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

My hope is that it will give the editor some (enforced) time, if they are so inclined, to actually learn how to be a better and more collaborative editor, rather than just editing in a vacuum. A "time out" if you will. We've been hearing a lot of I didn't hear that from Koala15, and my personal opinion is that it's because they won't stop editing long enough to actually read policies and guidelines and learn how to and why they should avoid this kind of issue. If they were not so inclined, then indeed all it would do is give them a reason to remember that incivility and disruptive editing have consequences. General Ization ^Talk 03:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per Chillum, it sounds more a punitive than a preventive block. Also, while Koala certainly had been sometimes rude, most of the differences above just document talk page discussions, but not the actual "incidents", or at least not the whole picture, so it is hard to judge who is really innocent here. Eg, it was linked at least three times (if I have not missed some other links) this talk page discussion as a proof of Koala's problematic behavior, yet it all started by an editor boldly redirecting a Koala's article a few hours after it had been created and then edit warring with Koala to have it redirected without any community discussion. The dispute eventually ended in an AfD, where the article was kept with no votes for deletion outside the nominator. The same with the Ted 2 incident, where the opener of this ANI discussion just showed some incompetence (he, not Koala), first battling to add a bizarre and non-standard "Elsewhere in the United States" in the infobox-date of release [12], then, after being explained why he was wrong, still trying to remove the premiere date with a poor rationale [13]. Rudeness is not excusable, and Koala should be more collaborative and use the edit summaries to immediately explain his actions and not to attack other editors, but the context is important, and so far the "incidents" do not rise to a level requiring a block IMO. Cavarrone 07:56, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: it's a shame that the devil's advocate sometimes wears an admin's hat. In their opposing statement, Cavarrone seems to have turned the wheel around and accused me, Koala15's victim, of incompetence, having completely ignored a discussion which I cited earlier. There is a considerable difference between sheer unprovoked rudeness and a stern reaction to sheer unprovoked rudeness, but apparently, to them the two are one and the same. This doesn't look very neutral to me, but I will be more than happy to be proven wrong. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 23:33, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
• Neutral, as stated in my intial comment above. Whilst I do believe Koala15 has good editing-related intentions, discussion-wise is a mess. I do believe that they are aware of the issue of civility and so on. They are being watched and if any further comments that are deemed uncivil, inappropriate, and so on, they will be reported once more and consequently blocked as they were given chances. And I will take their above comment "If I break the rules, block me." (not exact) seriously. I expect them to learn their mistakes and choose their words carefully instead of being rude and uncalled for. I choose to believe they will stop edit warring and stop engaging in OWNBEHAVIOR and start discussing in good matters. And that their competence here will improve. The way they type and what they say are supporting that issue. Thank you for the ping, Eau (I really don't know your username that easily) Callmemirela {Talk} ♑ 20:50, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support short term block up to a month (uninvolved non admin) Clearly preventive block to stop the ongoing problems that resurface in no time. Perhaps the time off will also bring about a change for the better and prevent this from happening again. AlbinoFerret 19:53, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

arbitrary section break

Hi, I'm the editor who User:Callmemirela indirectly referred to above. I want to put this one to bed so we can all move on, too. Having looked into this a bit more, however, there're some additional aspects that should be taken into consideration. Unfortunately, it'll take me just a little while longer to put the details into a neat orderly manner, dot the i's and cross the t's so to speak, ready to post here. I'm pretty sure I can do so within 24hrs. –146.200.32.196 (talk) ^{(formerly 146.'115 / 146.'207)} 02:55, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

While we wait, or to help us/admins decide whether we should, it would be helpful to understand your relationship to the case (since you are currently an IP with only this edit in your history). Are you the editor who formerly used IP 146.198.28.207 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 146.199.67.6 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (see contribs)? General Ization ^Talk 03:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes. (Powercut last night.) Incidentally, thank you for your application of meatball:DefendEachOther at the talkpage. Looking into this took a while (complexity and depth of the edit history among other factors) and, as we can see, a poll began in the meantime. It's preferable that reports here don't stay open for extended periods, so I can understand why EauZenC initiated it. 146.200.32.196 (talk)^{(formerly 146.'115 / 146.'207)} 03:53, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

@146.200.32.196: Did you plan to provide us with some additional insight concerning this matter, as your post above suggested? If so, please do so quickly or if not, please let us know, so that either way we can move this case toward closure. It's unfair both to the subject editor and the rest of us watching this section to leave it in limbo any longer. General Ization ^Talk 16:55, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I apologise to the community. In hindsight my 24hrs estimate was over optimistic. I misjudged the time needed wrt the large quantity of edits. Fortunately, having worked through the night, twice, things moved right along. I do intend to provide some additional material facts asap, so we can wrap this up. I'll come back here later today. Thanks. 146.200.32.196 (talk) 09:28, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Seemingly the IP's 72 hour estimate was also unrealistic. Move for closure, as at this point I can't imagine what revelations they could bring to the discussion that would make it worth our waiting any longer. General Ization ^Talk 18:29, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I see now that the IP has added to the open discussion above today, though they do not offer a closing recommendation. So I again move for closure, but now because it appears all who have an interest in commenting on this matter have done so. General Ization ^Talk 20:14, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

The IP's entry only reinforces the view of Koala15 as ill-faithed (not sure if this is a good antonym for good faith) and a repeat offender that has not shown any signs of real regret for their actions. As far as I see it, they are a ticking time bomb. Closure without action is precisely what they are hoping for. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 09:23, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• List of Warner Bros. Films

Hello. I'm having an issue with the same user. He's deleting information that has been proven with citations from reliable sources. He's doing so on the basis of what he thinks is necessary on the page, whereas it's not entirely up to him. StephenCezar15 (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

It's been nearly four days since somebody commented on this, and nobody else seems interested to comment, what's been said seems to be all that'll be said, can this be closed please? With the closer doing what they see fit? Azealia911 _talk 21:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

HOUNDING by Elvey

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Sorry to bother you all. I cannot figure Elvey out. but he/she has taken a disliking to me and from time to time comes around behind me and argues against whatever I am trying to do. I have been putting up with it, but now he has started making a mess with a new editor who has a COI.

June 13: filed a COIN case naming me as an editor with a COI over Kaiser Permanente (where he has been hounding a disclosed representative of that company on the Talk page here and later here) and then refused twice here and here to make a case that I had a COI, or even to acknowledge that by listing my name in the posting, he had raised a concern about possible COI for me on that article. Incompetent, BATTLEGROUND behavior.

June 17: Followed me to articles he had never edited here (that one having to do with an editor working on the article about himself - so a COI issue) and here arguing against me randomly. I warned him to stop here.

July 8: Elvey went back to it here, seemingly randomly reverting my removal of content added by a blocked user, Nuklear and edit warred over that, and didn't stop until an uninvolved, chemical-savvy admin, Edgar181, explained to Elvey why Nuklear was blocked and that the content Nuklear added had an error in it anyway, and that my cleanup after Nuklear was OK with him. I gave Elvey a 2nd warning here about that.

Yesterday, a new instance. Doc James and Alexbrn and I are having a difficult but salvageable set of discussions with a new editor, ColumbiaLion212, with a disclosed COI who I advised not to edit the article directly, and who has made the newbie mistake of accusing us of a COI since we are disagreeing with him, but then Elvey showed up at ColumbiaLion's talk page and actually told ColumbiaLion that "Given the concerns you raise above (about other people's COI), I think it may be quite appropriate for you to continue to edit the article directly." This is not only incompetent and wrong but it is pure BATTLEGROUND baloney. I warned Elvey to back off here and they just came right back with more incompetent, BATTLEGROUND nonsense. I don't know if we are going to be able to get things back on track with ColumbiaLion after this bumbling.

long narrative version of ColumbiaLion story
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
As you can see from their contribs, an editor named ColumbiaLion212 showed up at the Cranial electrotherapy stimulation article after first going to the Fisher Wallace Laboratories article (a company that makes CES devices and has HQ in New York City - note the user name - 212 is the area code for NYC and Columbia University's mascot is a lion), and started edit warring to add content promotional about these devices. I opened a discussion with ColumbiaLion212 about COI in Wikipedia, and they eventually disclosed that they work for a company that makes CES devices. So in this dif I informed them that they had a COI and asked them not to edit directly but rather work things out on Talk, and make proposals there. In the meantime, ColumbiaLion212 had kept trying to work on the article (although I had advised them to take a pause while we worked out COI issues) and unfortunately went over the top and decided that the other editors there must have a COI (this happens with new editors, unfortunately) and were acting in a conspiracy to keep "good" information about CES out of WP, and left COI messages and warnings to the editors who had worked on that page in the last year, Doc James here, SandyGeorgia here, Alexbrn here, and me here. ColumbiaLion212 received a warning against doing that from Acroterion who is otherwise uninvolved here. That was difficult but salvageable (things with COI editors sometimes derail but I am ~usually~ able to work with people to get things back on track) but then Elvey showed up at ColumbiaLion's talk page and actually told ColumbiaLion that "Given the concerns you raise above (about other people's COI), I think it may be quite appropriate for you to continue to edit the article directly." This is not only incompetent and wrong but it is pure BATTLEGROUND baloney. I warned Elvey to back off here and they just came right back with more incompetent, BATTLEGROUND nonsense. I don't know if we are going to be able to get things back on track with ColumbiaLion after this bumbling.

I would like Elvey to be topic banned from discussing COI in Wikipedia (he is not competent to deal with editors with a COI as his behavior on Kaiser Permanente and ColumbiaLion's talk page show) and I would like a one way topic ban with regard to me since his HOUNDING of me is disrupting my work here and is harming WP. Jytdog (talk) 18:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)Please impose a long cool-off block on Jytdog.

Response from Elvey

I twice responded to this editor's talk page accusations of HOUNDING: "Thank you for linking to that policy. In fact WP:HOUNDING#NOT says: '[T]racking a user's contributions for policy violations' 'is not harassment if the claims are presented civilly' '; the contribution logs exist for editorial and behavioral oversight. Unfounded accusations of harassment may be considered a serious personal attack and dealt with accordingly.'." I ask that WP:HOUNDING#NOT be enforced. diff.

I don't even think there's a need for me to dredge up diffs showing his worst behavior because his diffs supposedly showing me at my worst actually make him look bad. But let me respond to each assertion:

1. His assertion re. June 13 seems to be a lie: He must know I never said he had a COI WRT Kaiser because we've reminded him so multiple times - the diffs Jytdog provided show me pointing this out and he's been told I did no such thing repeatedly not only by me but by others as well (diff) (admin User:SlimVirgin). To continue to spread this blatant falsehood here is blatant BATTLEGROUND obsessiveness.

2. Re June 17: Take a look at the 2 edits he's pissed off about and links to, where I told users he bullied, "You may continue to make appropriate edits directly to the article, Clockback, which the WP:COI guideline definitely allows, but discourages." and, "Way to follow WP:DR, be constructive and civil, SageRad." Were they good edits? I think so. Was this hounding? I already responded to that accusation on my talk page (excerpt above). That bullying is a violation of WP:BULLY policy, which Jytdog has been repeatedly chastised for, including by at least one highly trusted administrator entrusted to use powerful mops and broomsticks with care: User:Risker.

3. Re July 8: Look at the edit history and you'll see that his edit war accusation should BOOMERANG. He edit warred; I followed standard DR.

4. Re. "Yesterday", I was directed to review Jytdog's edits by another editor, and when I did so, I was troubled and responded appropriately, as the diffs Jytdog has provided show. Specifically, I went to User:ColumbiaLion212's talk page because User:Brianhe directed me there with this edit. So I wasn't following Jytdog there at all, let alone hounding him. And even if I had followed him there, I was pointing out that he was violating WP:NOEDIT, so WP:HOUNDING#NOT is far more applicable than WP:HOUNDING . --Elvey^(t•c) 00:44, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

5. He grossly misrepresents when he says ColumbiaLion212 "finally" disclosed working for a company that makes CES devices; User:ColumbiaLion212 did so a day after being asked - with his very next edit - his 9th edit on Wikipedia!

6. Jytdog sees what he wants to see in our CoI policy; he says here that he believes that the "very strongly discouraged" in "Paid advocates are very strongly discouraged from direct article editing." is actually a "cannot". I suggest he be blocked until he is no longer delusional about what the CoI policy actually is, because he has disclosed, and demonstrated that it is his intent to attempt to enforce a nonexistent policy.--Elvey^(t•c) 03:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

As you usual Elvey makes a garble of things. In my interactions with editors who declare a COI, I never say "cannot" and you will not find any diffs where I did. Editors with a COI are strongly discouraged, and the dif he points to shows that I understand that very well. Jytdog (talk) 04:39, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

6b. Sorry but here you are telling the respectable subject of a BLP that the COI policy does not allow him to directly edit his BLP. Re your comment about #6: I provided a diff, in which he indeed says "cannot" (without the quotes). And the rest of diff does show him expressing the opinion that I described. If there's a more clear and concise way to express that Jytdog says here that he believes that the "very strongly discouraged" in "Paid advocates are very strongly discouraged from direct article editing." is actually a "cannot", I'm all ears. I note that you have not responded regarding #1, 2, 3, 4 or 5! --Elvey^(t•c) 05:16, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not responding to you point by point because most of what you write is incoherent. Others will be able to see that. Jytdog (talk) 06:25, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

That's one way to dodge scrutiny. Snowded says my writing is perfectly coherent, so no he was not able to see that. Based on that, I would ask that any interaction ban apply to Jytdog, rather than be one-way on me. Jytdog is saying I should be banned because of the behavior defended in #1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, and yet Jytdog refuses to discuss it. That's not reasonable or fair. I've launched a solid defense of 1-6. Yet Jytdog demands I self-impose a ban for the behavior addressed in 1-6. --Elvey^(t•c) 16:09, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

no, i have asked the community to do this. if you just agree it will save a lot of drama but you are apparently unwilling. so on we go. Jytdog (talk) 22:43, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I note, again, that you have not responded regarding #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6b. Snowded says my writing is perfectly coherent. You have made no specific requests for clarification. Your refusing to respond is disruptive; respond or retract your campaign, Jytdog.--Elvey^(t•c) 02:25, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I note, yet again, that you have not responded regarding #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6b. Can someone else respond? --Elvey^(t•c) 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Canvassing

When opening this case, Jytdog notified no fewer than three admins and two other users who take his extremeist view of COI and I ask that any comments from the canvassed users be disregarded and that our policy on canvassing be enforced with the requested block. A WP:Sham consensus may be the result of such canvassing.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Elvey (talk • contribs) 03:01, 26 July 2015 (UTC} ) signed this additional bit of mess-making by ElveyJytdog (talk) 05:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Are you aware that when naming an editor in a post at ANI, you are meant to notify them? That is not canvassing. Alexbrn (talk) 07:37, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

@Snowded: Why did you add a canvassing template to my comment? I was not canvassed. Please strike or provide some justification. Alexbrn (talk) 07:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, what are you talking about? ----Snowded ^TALK 07:26, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Apologies Snowded, got my diffs in a twist: it was Elvey who added it, so - to Elvy: Why did you add a canvassing template to my comment? I was not canvassed. Please strike or provide some justification. Alexbrn (talk) 07:39, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

If that's not canvassing, then the rule against canvassing has a giant loophole. Pinging users surely accomplishes what other forms of canvassing accomplish. But if you and Jytdog want to defend that use of the loophole, I won't fight you. The canvassing tag has been removed. --Elvey^(t•c) 16:09, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Survey of responses to proposal to sanction

• Note: A "Community sanction proposal" has been opened away below, below the closed subsection: here -- Jytdog (talk) 14:24, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG 172.56.18.107 (talk) 19:40, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:WHY ? Acroterion (talk) 19:59, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

172.56.18.107 has been blocked with an expiry time of 1 week for abusing multiple accounts. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

• Block user Elvey. The accusations in the COIN charge are vague, unsupported, and unhelpful. I have tried to follow this editor's diatribes without success. @Elvey: This discussion and my investigations make it appear that you are incompetent to edit here. Please correct me by providing one or more specific edits where user Jytdog has gone astray, and how you think that they have gone astray. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 01:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

After looking at Elvey's response (try following #6, for example), I reiterate my request that Elvey be blocked temporarily and in addition banned from COI topics indefinitely. Editor does not seem to be competent to have these conversations. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 13:44, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support COI topic ban I haven't seen WP:COIN recently, but an example of clueless COI enthusiasm is here. If there are other similar examples a topic ban is required because blundering around like that could tip the balance for some editors and make them retire. Johnuniq (talk) 02:41, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• Ugh. Normally I'd be quite supportive of attempts to root out COI, but the discussion that Elvey has initiated with regards to Doc James and Jytdog that have been linked to here have an unpleasant whiff of McCarthyism about them. It's not serious enough to warrant a topic ban yet in my view, but at the same time it's neither helpful or appropriate to have self-appointed COI cops wandering around demanding to know if someone is or has been a member of the COI Party. It very well could turn into a topic ban or other sanctions unless Elvey moderates their approach in the future, and that would be unfortunate. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 04:33, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Lankiveil to be clear, the reason I asked for the topic ban from COI is Elvey's incompetent interference in ongoing COI management efforts, as with ColumbiaLion212 (which was especially bad), and his interactions with the declared conflicted editor at KaiserPermanente where he abused the Talk page with soapboxing accusations. As you can see Elvey is only pushing harder here; he does not appear to be corrigible. Jytdog (talk) 04:44, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Lankiveil - Re. "self-appointed COI cops wandering around demanding to know if someone is or has [a COI]" - Are you not aware that Jytdog has been going around, bullying a great many users, demanding to know if they have a COI? Need more diffs? I've already provided some. --Elvey^(t•c) 05:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not talking about Jytdog here, I am talking about you. Jytdog may be a sinner or a saint, but that does not excuse your own behaviour in this area, which I regard as problematic. Seeking out COI is good, asking leading questions of editors without some proof to substantiate your suspicions creates a chilling effect that is not helpful. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 10:06, 28 July 2015 (UTC).

Elvey, asking about someone's relationship is not demanding. Jytdog (talk) 05:38, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support COI topic ban ColumbiaLion212 had gone off the rails badly but was being managed, but then Elvey came storming to their Talk page, apparently in furtherance of some kind of feud with Jytdog, and actually encouraged them to continue their COI-tainted editing. Elvey has not responded to questions about this and show no sign of getting a clue about how bad it was, so I believe a block is necessary as a preventative measure. Alexbrn (talk) 05:25, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps 172.56.18.107 is the same user that set up https://twitter.com/IndustryLapdog/with_replies! Wasn't me. --Elvey^(t•c) 03:25, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support one-way interaction ban between Elvey and Jytdog, and COI topic ban for Elvey. His arguments here make it pretty plain that he is engaging in motivated reasoning and that this has led him to a view of COI which leads to his making - ahem - unhelpful comments. I think six months should be sufficient. Guy (Help!) 12:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose While Jytdog is annoyed with the other editor (who, AFAICT, made no accusations of COI about Jytdog per se), the behaviour does not, IMO, rise to the level where sanctions are called for at all. The tendency to ask for sanctions when there is a reasonable disagreement is all too common on Wikipedia at this point. I note Snowded's reasoning below. Collect (talk) 12:14, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't often agree with Collect ;-) but in this case I do. I suggest both editors reflect a little and try and find a way to see value in the others comments before we move to sanctions. ----Snowded ^TALK 12:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - IMHO, seeking sanctions on another editor is the wrong way to go. But, if both individuals can't get along? then a 2-way IBAN would be best for them. GoodDay (talk) 12:28, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

To those opposing. This is about Elvey's behavior. Elvey is hounding me, not vice versa. And in the course of Elvey's hounding, Elvey inserted himself into a discussion with a new editor with a COI that was already going off the rails, and pushed it over a cliff. It is the damage to other editors and to the overall effort to manage COI in WP that led me here. Jytdog (talk) 14:01, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The best route here for you, would be to ignore Elvey. If Elvey were to follow you around, while you're ignoring him/her? then he/she would be viewed as harrassing you. GoodDay (talk) 14:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I do - I don't go fight about every harassing edit Elvey makes. But when Elvey inserts him/herself into a discussion as they did with ColumbiaLion and as they did at KaiserPermanente, they make a mess of things that cannot be ignored. Their incompetent actions on COI issues are what I am really after here. I want the one-way ban because that is what apparently drove these bumbling "interventions", and they are already fixed on me and this posting will only make that worse. Jytdog (talk) 14:21, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Claiming you've never followed me around is hogwash. The new editor hasn't been pushed off the rails; he's been scared off by Jytdog. Hasn't been back. WP:BITE, WP:BULLY etc, in action. You chased him off like a good guard dog. --Elvey^(t•c) 17:30, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I have never followed you around and you have zero diffs to prove that. More nonsense. Jytdog (talk) 21:15, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support either a COI topic ban of Elvey per Johnuniq and/or a one-way interaction ban of Elvey regarding Jytdog per Guy. I think that the discussion has gotten considerably off-track, but I also think that the ways in which it has gotten off-track support the appropriateness of some restrictions. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:43, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

If it is one or the other, I would choose topic banning from COI, as that is the most damaging to the community.Jytdog (talk) 20:36, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

We know you'd like that, but we're trying to determine what's equitable and practical, not what gives the complainant what he most wants.  :-/  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:19, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Tryptofish, if I've misrepresented policy, I'd really like to know how, because I don't want to do that. The only way they've been able to suggest I've misrepresented policy has been to misrepresent what I've said, and then reach false conclusions based on false evidence - which your 'per Guy' suggests has worked. Guy grossly misrepresented my positions and then accused me of having those bad opinions, and refused to address the misrepresentations. What the hell is OK about that? If I've pointed out a true policy that you don't want what you see as the wrong people to know about, I've, reluctantly, offered to stop doing so under the terms below, at #Proposal. Please consider endorsing it. --Elvey^(t•c) 02:25, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Since you specifically asked me to reply, I will. I've read it, and I agree with Guy. I don't see the problem as being about misrepresenting policy, but as exhausting the community's patience with the way you communicate with other editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:19, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Just several days ago User:GregJackP and User:Minor4th said here that Jytdog should be banned from COI areas. User:Viriditas chimed in, "Jytdog seem to disrupt every article where the word "Monsanto" appears, have you considered voluntarily withdrawing from any and all Monsanto-related topics?" --Elvey^(t•c) 02:25, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Risker recently said of Jytdog, "I worry a great deal about the really shoddy way we treat the subjects of our biographical material." I do too. Right after the shoddy treatment Jytdog gave Clockback, a subject of our biographical material, and NEVER APOLOGIZED FOR, I responded with factually correct information, which no one is disputing, but some here nevertheless want to ban me for. What the hell kind of respect for the subjects of BLP is that? --Elvey^(t•c) 02:39, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Don't drag me into this - I'm not saying anything about Jytdog, one way or another. We resolved our issue. GregJackP Boomer! 04:57, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

"Someone had a concern" isn't very helpful. I'd like to hear from those four editors or have specific pointers to the discussions of what they think the alleged issues with Jytdog are. Never mind, I found it. Jytdog having any COI-patrolling and civility issues of his own would not magically make Elvey's actions okey-dokey, but we may be looking at a mutual interaction ban, even a mutual topic ban or other action; Upate:I don't see a mutual issue. ANI is not a forum for one side to "win" with quicker and craftier argumentation or a bigger enourage. I'm not convinced a long topic ban is needed here, though, for anyone. If an editor has WP:COMPETENCE problems (which Elvey clearly does with regard to at least COI, CIVIL, and CANVASS interpretation), this is generally resolved with experience, which they cannot gain if barred from the area in which they need to develop better competence. If there's an interaction ban, set a time limit, like 6 months. Long-term ones are too easily gamed, are onerous, and usually don't serve any purpose but cementing a dispute forever instead of letting it naturally come to a "why were we even fighting?'" WP:DGAF realization, and become by-gones. Permanent topic bans are rarely useful except with regard to actual soapboxing POV-pushers, or "great wrongs" battlegrounders, and just serve to create martyrs-in-their-own-minds among editors who mean well but are "differently clued" at the moment. I do agree that the COIN filing by Elvey of vague, unsupported-aspersion casting should not go unaddressed, probably with a 3-month COI topic ban, regardless of other matters and outcomes.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:19, 28 July 2015 (UTC) Updated. 05:10, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks SMcCandlish I was recently brought to Arbcom (case was dismissed) and at the same time to ANI (no action) over my COI activities. Elvey is having a field day quoting stuff from those events. I took a week off from dealing with COI issues to get feedback as advised at Arbcom and got some good feedback, which I've been reflecting on; I still have still not fully gone back to my former levels of COI work as I am still considering some things. Elvey keeps quoting stuff from those stale (and older) cases as though it is hot news.

The problem with Elvey's involvement in COI matters is that he is "intervening" in ongoing interactions with new editors who have or may have a COI (which are often delicate and require respect and diplomacy) and writing frankly incompetent things. Sometimes harassing the conflicted editors, and sometimes harassing me and encouraging bad behavior by the conflicted editor. There is no sense to it. This is really bad with new editors, especially, who are trying to learn how WP works, under pressure from their COI.

Anyway, I recognize that the community will do as it will. But working on live COI issues is not a training ground. Nothing will prevent Elvey from reading COI actions and getting their head on straight, and asking for an indef to be lifted when they can show they understand things better. But I need to stop responding to things here - have written too much already. Jytdog (talk) 03:31, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Understood. I'm interested in due diligence. Not every dogpile indicates consensus, but often bandwagon mentality, and every argument has at least two sides. Just because ArbCom or ANI previously didn't act on something doesn't mean it's not relevant, since patterns emerge over time. But I have no interest in fishing for one with regard to you; I just asked for clarification of what complaints others had raised (and it was the BITE one that caught my eye, not a COI one, but I treat all claims of wiki-wrongdoing with skepticism).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  04:22, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Reviewed Risker's and related material, saw GregJackP's disavowal of a current dispute, and don't see a major issue. The two arbs who made the point to you that COI and paid editing are more distinct that you seemed to think at that time, probably got that point across (that was much earlier in the month), and I don't see evidence they didn't. Absent a showing of really recent issues in this regard, or of newbie-biting that's also recent, I'm satisfied there's no boomerang of any kind here, but hope the message was absorbed, to get COI/PAID policy understanding in synch with the community's if you're going to be helping new editors who have conflicts of interest.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:10, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• Recommendation: Elvey should be subject to a one-way interaction-ban from Jytdog, and a topic-ban from COI-related discussions and processes, for 3-6 months (concurrent) in both cases; long enough to learn these ropes and re-examine his approach. More than 1 year would be counterproductive and patently punitive at this stage. I'm particularly concerned about the aggressive nature of Elvey's approach to all this, especially the aspersion casting at WP:COIN, which can, as someone else said, "tip the balance" and drive incoming editors away. Because of the BLP connection, we have to be especially careful in this area. The sarcastic, lecturing tone of Elvey's responses here is not a good sign. WP:COMMONSENSE escape valve: Elvey should be able to report what he is sure is a glaringly obvious, unmistakable COI problem, to an admin, who could determine whether it required further investigation.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:10, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

What is our CoI policy actually?

Jytdog sees what he wants to see in our CoI policy; he says here that he believes that the "very strongly discouraged" in "Paid advocates are very strongly discouraged from direct article editing." "is actually a cannot". I suggest he be blocked until he is no longer delusional about what the CoI policy actually is, because he has disclosed, and demonstrated that it is his intent to attempt to enforce a nonexistent policy.

Jytdog was ***roundly critized by two longtime arbitrators for his extreme interpretations of our CoI policy and treatment of User:Snowded - none other than User:Risker, who is sick of him and User:Newyorkbrad.

The diff above shows that:

Risker told Jytdog, "The ToU doesn't say what you think it says." at 10:02 am, 13 June 2015 (UTC−7)

User:Snowded told Jytdog his "absolutist interpretation of what is a guideline not policy does not help." I wish Jytdog would listen or be given some quiet time to think about it.

Risker told Jytdog, "Conflict of interest is not the same thing as paid editing. If you cannot understand that, you need to stop working in this area. Paid editing is things like Elance or other SEO organizations who specifically write for pay, or the PR department of a company. Conflict of interest is not the same thing. Again, if you insist that the two things are identical, which is exactly what you were doing in the edit I reverted, then you need to stop working in this area, because you misunderstand the basic premise." at 12:51 pm, 14 June 2015 (UTC−7)

I wish Jytdog would listen.

User:Newyorkbrad told Jytdog: "Let me see if I can help a bit here, because there is a widespread tendency to interpret the COI issue and related guidelines in a simplistic way, which is increasingly unhelpful for everyone. I'm a partner in a law firm. The firm is not notable enough for an Wikipedia article, but suppose I were at a larger firm and we had one. If I were to edit the article about my law firm, I would have a "conflict of interest" (the significance of which could be minor or major depending on the nature of the edits). However, I would not be a "paid editor," because my firm pays me to practice law, not to edit Wikipedia. Is everyone in agreement so far?" at 11:10 am, 13 June 2015 (UTC−7)

I wish Jytdog would listen.

But Risker doesn't expect Jytdog to listen; I see a need for admin action is proven by this comment and driven home by Jytdog's actions leading up to this ANI dispute: "Thank you for your illustration, NYB. I am afraid, however, that it falls on deaf ears (referring to Jytdog's ears) for those who imagine themselves pure as the driven snow." at 12:56 pm, 13 June 2015 (UTC−7)

I wish Jytdog would listen.

"Jytdog I strongly suggest stepping away from COI issues until you have taken on board the community's concerns (expressed well by Risker) regarding your editing in the area, if you don't then I would not be surprised to see a topic ban proposed at AN/I." -User:Thryduulf at 3:33 am, 12 July 2015 (UTC−7)

I wish Jytdog would listen or be given some quiet time to think about it, or made to heed this. Said topic ban is hereby proposed - probably where Jytdog got the idea to propose the same ban for me!

--Elvey^(t•c) 03:03, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Within the range of views that exist within WP -- which range from very strong opposition to editors with a COI even being part of the community, to opposition to dealing with COI at all and just focusing on content -- I have a moderate interpretation of COI - and above all a view centered on talking with people about what we all care about - namely good content. Additionally, we don't have a COI policy at all. We have a COI guideline. Elvey's post from its header on, is an incoherent ramble, cherry picked from various discussions, and a demonstration of what I mean about their lack of competence to discuss these things. Jytdog (talk) 05:10, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Elvey would you please add difs to your quotes above? I checked Risker's contribs and they made no comment at 12:56 pm, 13 June 2015. And, by the way, I took my time out as suggested at the Arbcom case that was declined with no action, and got some very helpful feedback. Jytdog (talk) 05:51, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I've put a few asterisks next to a diff that provides what you requested, Jytdog. (And times are UTC−7.) Here it is again, since you're having trouble finding it:

Jytdog was ***roundly critized by two longtime arbitrators for his extreme interpretations of our CoI policy and treatment of User:Snowded - none other than User:Risker, who is sick of him and User:Newyorkbrad.--Elvey^(t•c) 06:29, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The harder you twist, the worse you look. The "sick of him" is especially ugly, as what Risker was sick of what Atsme and I going back and forth. What would be useful would be if you would promise to stop following me around, and stay away from COI issues, which you are making a mess of. Jytdog (talk) 08:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

No, Jytdog, that wasn't it at all. It was about you not me, and it's time for you to seriously self-analyze because your behavior is extremely problematic. Risker stated: "Enough, Jytdog; stop haranguing people. We're talking about half a dozen links, half of which are on pages that have already gone through community review and were deemed to be reasonable additions to the page. I don't accept this sort of thing on my talk page. You are not, under any circumstances, entitled to this level of personal information about anybody on Wikipedia, conflict of interest or no. Risker (talk) 1:23 pm, 6 July 2015, Monday (22 days ago) (UTC−5)" [14] And with regards to you telling other editors to stop following you around - you need to self-analyze in that department, too. Atsme^📞📧 06:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposal

OK, if there's a consensus that I need to

1. stop informing users who are told not to edit articles because they have a COI the truth - that the COI policy guideline only discourages users with a COI from editing but does not forbid it and
2. Stop informing users that if it applies to them, they must comply with the ToU clauses requiring disclosure of FCoI, then I will stop doing so.

If you think I should to stop doing that, or shouldn't, please indicate that below. But please also explain WHY I should or shouldn't stop doing so (optional). --Elvey^(t•c) 06:29, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I have already indicated it above. I can tell you from long personal experience of handling emails at OTRS, and as an admin for nearly ten years now, that your advice to these users is profoundly unhelpful and the most likely outcome of their following your advice is that they will end up blocked or banned. Guy (Help!) 12:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, so Guy is on record saying that users (this user at least) must not inform users who are told not to edit articles because they have a COI the truth - that the COI guideline only discourages users with a COI from editing but does not forbid it and users (this user at least) must not inform users that if it applies to them, they must comply with the ToU clauses requiring disclosure of FCoI. I hear you when you say that this true advice is nonetheless profoundly unhelpful. Anyone else agree? User:Jytdog? Say so here and I'll stop. --Elvey^(t•c) 16:09, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

That is mostly incorrect and incoherent, Elvey. I don't tell people not to edit articles; I ask them not to.

And there are lots of perspectives in the community about how the ToU applies to editors with a COI. Some interpret the ToU as applying only narrowly to say freelancers who are literally paid to edit or create WP articles, and would not apply the ToU to a company employee writing about their company of their own volition. Others interpret the application of the ToU more broadly. Also, the ToU only requires disclosure - it says nothing about editing WP articles. Your discussion is all confused, and you are trying to draw lines through that stew. It can't be done. So I cannot affirm or deny what you write.

I will say that your emphasizing what people with a COI can do (which is not clear in WP) instead of what they should do (which is clearly described in the COI guideline), is a destructive thing.

And what is profoundly unhelpful is your fiercely bringing your confused ideas and your beef with me (whatever that is) into ongoing discussions with editors who have or may have a COI. What I have asked for, is for you to say away from me, and stay out of COI issues. Will you agree to do those two things? Jytdog (talk) 16:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I expect your behavior won't change, despite what Risker, Newyorkbrad and a dozen other folks have told you, so yes, I propose we avoid each other. I've offered the proposal in this section as a solution. Clearly there's lots of feedback for both of us here and on the huge thread on Risker's talk page on how we could improve our approach to COI issues. I intend to change my behavior accordingly, and you have said that you will too. Progress, I dare say? --Elvey^(t•c) 17:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

No progress. Your ideas still appear to be as confused as they were before and you have not acknowledged once here that you have made a hash of things in your pursuit of me. And again - you are following me around; if you stop doing that and let go, you will not find me in front of you anymore. I don't want to interact with you; the fixation is yours. And nothing new has been to said to me here about COI, nor have I said anything new. Everything you have brought here about me is stale and dealt with already. Please just agree to stay away from me and from COI issues. Jytdog (talk) 02:09, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment from sort of involved editor

Interesting. I agree with Jytdog that Elvey is cherry picking (although he is not incoherent) and I am also strongly of the opinion that Jytdog has the best interests of Wikipedia at heart. However I don't think Jytog has a moderate interpretation of COI. He has an assertive/bureaucratic approach to COI not a conversational one and acts (not just in my case) as if the guideline is policy. In the incident which gave rise to the above an article about a framework I created was subject to attack by a commercial rival. After a couple of rounds I (recognising my involvement) took the matter the Administrators Notice Board and an independent admin gave the offending editor an 'only warning' and the issue appeared resolved. Jytdog then arrived and the situation escalated for some time with multiple notices, postings, warnings and the like. In effect a guideline was acted on as if it was policy.

Based on that experience and monitoring other COI notices by Jytog and others, I've been meaning to write up a suggested guideline for the COI notice board when I get time. But given this has been brought up I think there are a few points that it would be useful to discuss:

1. Any editor getting involved in issuing a COI notice needs to make a very clear distinction between a 'paid' editor and one who has an interest in a page. There is a radical difference between getting the odd lecture or consultancy fee and being employed to directly edit Wikipedia.
2. The COI notices used tend to take a all editors with any COI however remote are all sinners' approach which can have a chilling effect. We could do with two different notices: One for those paid and the other for those with some interest. In fact templating should be discouraged in the latter case
3. It is clear that in respect of an academic framework the creator of that framework is also a subject matter expert. Any notice should make that clear. Asserting that an editor in this situation should not edit the article (per Jytdog) is not policy and should not be asserted as such
4. In general any editor taking a COI monitoring role should exercise care not to (i) inflame a conflict and (ii) not to come across as a bureaucratic enforcement agent. In this case Jytdog could have acknowledged that I had not taken part in an edit war, despite the posting of a false statement, but had brought in a neutral admin pretty quickly. I asked him if he thought I had made any edits against policy and got no reply. I'm an experienced enough editor not to have taken offence but I can think of a few academic colleagues, not familiar with some the 'guideline bureaucracy culture' in some parts of Wikipedia might have taken it differently.

So regardless of the cherry picking and/or Jytdog's accusation of incoherent rambling (not helpful) there is an issue for the community here. ----Snowded ^TALK 06:43, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

This discussion belongs at WPT:COIN or WPT:COI not here. The issue is the editor's conduct towards each other, not the minutia of what the technical grounds of a policy are or are not. And we have a policy that no one really follows and there's little support for, then it's time for the policy to reflect reality not the other way around. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:26, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

And at some stage I will move a more elaborate version of it there, but the comment was relevant in so far as it reflects a wider problem that undiscriminating COI enforcement can create. As to your comments on policy and reality, the solution to that is not the current COI practice which needs more development - then it might be possible for it to become policy. ----Snowded ^TALK 07:31, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Snowded Thanks for your remarks! The policy issues that came into play in our interaction were WP:NLT, WP:BATTLEGROUND, and WP:BLPCOI (BLP applies to talk pages too) all related to your real world disputes with the other editor, that the two of you carried into WP. I have only run across a few (maybe three) situations where two editors, each with such clear COIs of their own, also were in conflict in the RW and carried that into WP. That is not a common situation - a double COI in a way (your own, and the conflict with the other editor, and the same for the other editor) - and my interactions with editors with potential or already-declared conflicts generally do not get near so intense; those three policy issues generally don't come into them. Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 09:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I think you just further illustrate the point I was trying to make Jytdog. There was a RW conflict, what you failed to realise was that I had responded to the wikipedia conflict by pulling in a neutral admin to avoid escalation. You then arrived and created the conditions that allowed an unnecessary conflict to escalate. My points above about handling different types of COI was meant to try and prevent that sort of thing. It was made worse by your subsequent attempt (the Elvey extracts above) to challenge my right to even talk about the issue. Fortunately you were overruled by two former arbcom members. You continue to see COI as black and white rather than understanding the difference between paid editing and legitimate interest even subject matter expertise. Until you engage with the issue of the manner of your interactions you are going to end up in more conflicts. I can see that Elvey's behaviour is problematic, but so is yours. ----Snowded ^TALK 12:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Snowded, this is where COI issues get so difficult - even now you still seem unclear on your own COI. You have academic claims of ownership of the concept, you founded a company based on the concept and serve as CSO of that company and make money lecturing about it etc (direct financial interests) and you have an external conflict with another editor who has a competing company. If only the first were at play, our interactions would have been very, very different. As I wrote above, having two editors in conflict here in WP each with their own COIs and in RW conflicts with each other is rare, and you still don't seem to recognize how locked-in to that conflict you were. Also, I never challenged your right to talk about it - I thought you should disclose that you had a COI in articles you write about, when you posted at WT:COI. Risker disagreed with how I expressed that. Also, my views on COI are laid out on my Userpage and what you will find there, is very far from black and white. Finally, I highly value subject matter expertise in WP, in line with the wider WP community. Our very valuable essay on WP:EXPERT welcomes experts, and warns experts not to use WP as a platform to promote their own ideas and publications. That is how I treat experts as well, when that is the only issue. Look at my interactions with User:Gjboyle on their talk page, for example. The picture you are painting of me is not accurate. It is very much shaped by our difficult interaction which I have acknowledged I could have handled better. Jytdog (talk) 14:18, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I fully understand the exact nature of my interest in that article and the nature of the conflict. I go out of my way never to do a primary edit on either of the two articles I am associated with so the idea I am using wikipedia as a platform to promote my ideas is a nonsense. I have a framework which has revived multiple awards and citations therefore I have an interest in that article. I didn't found a company based on that concept, its one framework and our main focus is software. You've been told that but you don't listen. The fact that you refuse to see any different between that and a paid editor remains problematic. The fact that your response to any editor who disagrees with you on something is to tell them they don't understand their own position when you have at best surface knowledge is a problem. What you fail to see is that your attitude and method of engagement is a PART of the problem. So whatever your intentions you are creating problems. In the case it question it was your intervention that caused the conflict and you still can't see that. Now this is probably not going anywhere so having made the point I will leave it. I hope when I bring proposals on this to the COI notice board we can find a way to work together ----Snowded ^TALK 14:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Snowded. I did take a break from COI work per the advice at arbcom, and I did get valuable feedback on my talk page. I have heard, that I can come across too stridently. I have heard that. And we will probably continue to disagree about what happened at Cynefin article; I do acknowledge that I got too harsh there and was part of the problem; that is why I apologized. And as I wrote at Risker's page, there is a difference between paid editing and other forms of COI. Paid editing is a subset of COI which in turn is a subset of advocacy, and it is advocacy that shows up in bad WP content. The ToU apply only to paid editing. So please don't misrepresent me. I also ask you to reconsider your !vote above. Whatever you think about me, Elvey's behavior has been very out of line. Jytdog (talk) 16:35, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

(Belated requests: Jytdog, stop attacking Snowded here. It's derailing the discussion. Snowded, don't feel the need to defend yourself here.) Jytdog says above, "I have heard, that I can come across too stridently. I have heard that." I am happy to hear that. However this diff and the interactions Snowded points to suggest the behavior hasn't improved. That recent threatening of a new user with an indefinite ban like that appears to be calculated to maximize Chilling Effects. That's why I got involved. But apparently, consensus is building (as shown by the support votes here) that those chilling effects are just dandy and I'm not to interfere. --Elvey^(t•c) 17:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

He isn't attacking we have a difference of opinion. I seriously suggest you just back off for a bit. At the moment a few of us think that this should just be left and there is no need for an interaction ban or a topic ban. I still think that but if you get into a Battleground mentality some sort of restriction will be needed. Per my suggestion on your talk page I think you should just stop for a bit and ping me or another editor if you something is wrong and we can look at it. ----Snowded ^TALK 18:50, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support ban from all COI-related discussions for Elvey. This is an issue of WP:CIVIL and WP:OUTING policy not COI. Elvey doesn't care about the COI policy, and just seems to use the COI policy as an excuse to lord it over people that have identified themselves in some way. If the dispute is about WP:COI policy, then the discussion belongs as that talk page not at ANI (or at WPT:COIN). Arguments about policy here aren't going to go anywhere. Here, we can discuss your individual ability to respond to potential COI issues and how in particular you act with each person you have concerns about. The problem is Elvey seems to use potential COI issues as an excuse to attack people. If you can't be civil with potential issues, then you'll be stopped to prevent extra work for the rest of us. This comment is less about COI issue and is based someone using their ability to know a person's identity to make a snide off-topic uncivil remark. There was no discussion about drug pricing, not even something that the representative brought up, just an excuse for Elvey for start a fight. This discussion is basically the same as WP:OUTING people to win fights. Frankly, Elvey is getting close to WP:OUTING issues and I think an outright indefinite block may be needed if the editor insists on just hunting around for fights. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The issue User:Snowded raised and you seem to want to pretend doesn't exist, Ricky, is that of Jytdog's uncivil behavior toward me, Snowded and many others. Don't try to hand wave it away as off topic for ANI. Holy shit! There are 113 mentions of Jytdog's name on this page, and only half of them are in this ("HOUNDING by Elvey") section. Jytdog seems to live here.--Elvey^(t•c) 07:42, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Snowded, I extracted the relevant comments from a single conversation. If that's cherry picking, then I picked cherries.

Yes, he acts as if it's policy that an editor must not edit an article if they have a CoI. There is no such policy. But that's not all. There's no such guideline EITHER! There's been a HUGE push to get the COI guideline changed to say that an editor must not edit an article if they have a CoI - there have been 4 huge, formal RfC campaigns. But they didn't succeed. I voted for 'em. But it's dishonest to go around deceiving people into believing CoI says what it'd say if one of those campaigns had been successful. so I don't do it.

1. Yes! I mistook one for the other recently, but unlike some users, I'm willing to recognize my mistakes.
2. Yes! I recently proposed a new template just for when a FCoI disclosure notice is not adequate.
3. Absolutely!
4. Yes, I tried to do that when I approached DocJames, and he was entirely cordial in response (though perhaps he's infallibly cordial). I still got attacked here for doing so. Refusing to address the concerns I've raised other than to dismiss them as "incoherent" is not in accord with policy, which requires that users respond when reasonable concerns are raised.

Thanks for piping up. --Elvey^(t•c) 07:26, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

No, I do not behave as though it is policy. Most people, when approached respectfully and informed about the COI guideline and its advice, are happy to comply. Which has been a really pleasant part of the doing the COI work. Even editors with a COI understand that if WP lacks integrity, the public will stop trusting it, and it will become useless for people to learn anything about whatever their external interest is. Jytdog (talk) 09:44, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I genuinely don't think you intent to behave as if it was policy, but having looked at your interactions not only in my case but others I think you come across that way. Fast templating, assertive statements without qualification; threats of ANI referral; all create that impression. Your call if you want to listen to that or not. ----Snowded ^TALK 12:15, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Snowded, I tell people I will bring them to ANI when they violate policy and I have some actual case to make here. I have not told anyone I would bring them to ANI for a COI issue per se. I never assert that someone actually has a COI unless they have already disclosed it. I do make assertions about behavior and editing that are always 100% supportable. I do ask questions. I do ask people to follow the COI guideline. I did get way too hot with you and with Atsme, for sure, for different reasons. I apologized to both of you. I did push too hard there. Jytdog (talk) 13:56, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

OK thanks for the acknowledgement it gives a way forward. I would suggest that saying that if someone doesn't do what you want you will take them to ANI and that you have a successful track record is probably an intervention of LAST resort. Better to explore understanding of what has happened and policy before jumping to the threat :-) ----Snowded ^TALK 14:43, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Your sarcasm is not helping Snowded. Elvey, I'm not particularly concerned about any incivility towards you. I'm concerned about you attacking other editors out of the blue under the justification of "good intentions" to advocate for the COI policy. Again, I look at the Kaiser talk page post and see someone who seems out to find a fight to win. Everything else falls from that. Are you capable of offering a moderate incremental discussion (namely, if you think there's a problem (a) post a discussion on the article in question; (b) bring it up at COI; or (c) at the very least communicate to the people you accuse without presuming their guilt ahead of time) or is it just "let me do what I can or else I can do nothing at all"? WP:OUTING is a policy too and I've never felt that harassing individuals to protect us from some hypothetical COI is a long-term solution. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:25, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

This is some new definition of 'sarcasm' is it Ricky? If you misinterpret that phrase you might well have misinterpreted others. Maybe you could help by pointing me to the diffs that indicate a possible outing? ----Snowded ^TALK 19:52, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Policy status

Elvey is right that the COI guideline is a guideline not a policy. It offers guidance for users on how to edit a subject in which they have a vested interest. He is wrong, however, to assert that ti does not have the force of policy. In fact, the COI guideline exists to help people avoid a global site ban from all WMF websites. The WMF Terms of Use say:

These Terms of Use prohibit engaging in deceptive activities, including misrepresentation of affiliation, impersonation, and fraud. As part of these obligations, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation.

— Wikimedia Foundation Terms of Use

Obviously there is scope for Elvey to wikilawyer about the precise meaning of compensation, but policies are interpreted using Clue, not weaselly lawyer speak. Anyone who edits in a way that may result in personal gain, or who edits Wikipedia on their employer's dollar (i.e. while at work) risks falling foul of this bright line rule.

The guideline has another very important purpose.

Any company or individual who edits Wikipedia with an undisclosed conflict of interest, risks substantial reputational damage. We have seen this already with the congressional editing scandal.

I wrote the boilerplate guidance to company representatives at OTRS, I also wrote the guidance to BLP subjects, and both of them make the same point: in order to protect your reputation and preserve your rights to edit, we strongly recommend that you follow the COI guidelines, which are designed to ensure transparency and facilitate engagement with the Wikipedia community to ensure rapid resolution of issues you might have with an article.

It's there for a reason. Elvey clearly does not understand that reason. Perhaps, having read this, he might. Guy (Help!) 12:15, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

So, in short, no, he still doesn't. I reiterate my support for a restriction. Guy (Help!) 22:07, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I'd promise to stop asserting the foolishness you say I'm asserting, and so forth, but it would be very much like promising to stop beating my wife. You insist on grossly misrepresenting my position. What part of "I agree, users should follow the COI guidelines" do you not understand? That was and remains my stated position. Please stop mislabeling opinions that aren't mine. Shame on you for that. I'm a human being. Have you no shame?--Elvey^(t•c) 02:56, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Any vote! based on gross misrepresentations of my opinion should not be counted.--Elvey^(t•c) 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Jytog, you said last month, "Risker expressed objections and I took feedback on board and have adjusted how I operate." so how have you done that. I see no change, specifically: Risker told Jytdog, "The ToU doesn't say what you think it says." at 10:02 am, 13 June 2015 (UTC−7) HOW has your understanding of what the ToU says changed?--Elvey^(t•c) 02:56, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

COI needs updating or clarification

I'd recommend ya'll go to WP:COI, as it is the core of the above disagreements. GoodDay (talk) 12:21, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:COI is clear enough, the issue is Elvey's idiosyncratic interpretation of it. Guy (Help!) 12:34, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The core of this ANI thread is Elvey's unacceptable behavior. Jytdog (talk) 16:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

If my interpretation is idiosyncratic, why is Risker getting on Jytdog's case about his misinterpretation? GoodDay is right - WP:COI is NOT clear enough. All these arguments are very strong evidence of that. If I'm wrong for telling people the truth about what WP:COI says, then surely that's damn good evidence that WP:COI needs to change to say that Paid advocates must not engage in direct article editing. Unfortunately attempts to change it to say that have failed, and attempts to get ArbCom to help (by others; I haven't tried) have fallen flat. Right, User:Coretheapple? --Elvey^(t•c) 17:17, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Again, not accurate. It is not clear what Risker's current stance on me is. Risker expressed objections and I took feedback on board and have adjusted how I operate. Please stop bringing up stale issues. And your confusion and your hounding and disruptive behavior, does not mean there is a problem with the guideline. Jytdog (talk) 17:32, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:COI should be put up for WP:MFD. Writing for Wikipedia is analogous to how scientists contribute to review articles, you must base everything on reliable sources, you cannot do original research. Your peers will check if what you write is up to standards. Now, in some less reliable discipines like e.g. medical science, you do have a problem with COI, authors are required to declare them in articles. But Wikipedia is much more like a hard science discipline like physics than a softer science like medicine. Count Iblis (talk) 22:22, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

"WP:COI should be put up for WP:MFD." Poppycock. If anything it should be stiffened and made policy. BMK (talk) 22:34, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Which would mean that anonymous editing would have to end, editors would have to submit their CV's the WMF as part of a formal application to become editor here. Admins would have access to the submitted documents to check if the editors are sticking to the COI policy. Count Iblis (talk) 23:02, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Actually, there's no correlation between "stiffening COI" and IP editing having to end, that's pretty much a straw man, nor do any of the other dire results you predict follow in any logical way from the premise - it's all pretty much hyperbole, innit?. However I will say frankly that the project would be much better off if IP editing had been ended many years ago, since its downside far out weighs its upside, and it's mostly still here for political/philosophical reasons that have no relevance to the reality of life in the trenches. BMK (talk) 01:51, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Personally I would end IP editing as well for similar reasons. It means people can too readily hide an interest. But it is also the case that in many articles enforcement of the COI as interpreted by most of its enthusiasts would mean that subject matter experts were confined to requesting changes to articles from patrolling COI bureaucrats which would be equally disruptive. Banning ALL paid editing, restricting University projects to drafts that would then be reviewed would all be more helpful activities. Key is to stop the one size fits all COI approach currently being practiced and advocated. ----Snowded ^TALK 05:26, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Community sanction proposal - Community Patience Exhausted by Elvey

Current results 14:2 14:3* 15:3* in favor of the proposal. We have had ~48 hrs and sufficient participation and supermajority. This is ripe for uninvolved administrator close and enaction. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:17, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposed:

Elvey has exhausted the patience of the community and is topic banned from COI, broadly construed. This sanction may be appealed to the community in six months.

• Support as proposer. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:40, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• The discussion above shows six supports for a topic ban of various durations (Johnuniq + Alexbrn + Guy (JzG) + Ricky81682 + Tryptofish + SMcCandlish) and two opposes (Snowded + GoodDay). Johnuniq (talk) 07:55, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• More lies misrepresentation. (So what else is new?) Collect voted oppose too. With my !vote, it's 4:6. Way to use dirty campaign tricks, Johnuniq. Too bad there's no voting fraud hotline to call. --Elvey^(t•c) 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• My apologies for the accidental omission of Collect who opposed sanctions above (and below). The omission of Jytdog and Elvey was intentional as it did not seem useful to include the two protagonists. I listed the names specifically so others could check. Johnuniq (talk) 06:33, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, but for it to properly stick absent community or arbcom sanctions we really need a formal proposal. Admins can't just say "I ban you", the community can... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:44, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support It is time to move on. If Elvey won't drop the stick on their own perhaps we should encourage them.--Adam in MO Talk 11:54, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban per my comments above - my view is strengthened, in fact, because Elvey has shown no undertanding of why his intervention was so bad, and has instead mounted a belligerent defence of himself in which it seems only others are held to be at fault. Alexbrn (talk) 14:08, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support After reading through all of this I see no other alternative. Dbrodbeck (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support, per what I said above. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Any vote! based on gross misrepresentations of my opinion should not be counted. I shouldn't be banned for informing users of what WP:CoI says, which what this is really about. That's the behavior this is intended to prevent. --Elvey^(t•c) 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support as the OP. Elvey's behavior is only getting more disruptive as this thread continues. Jytdog (talk) 22:06, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Draconian measures simply do not work, and the evidence that they are needed in the case at hand is weak. If the stick is being dropped, let it stay on the ground. Collect (talk) 22:13, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't see anything Draconian about a 6-month ban from a single noticeboard. Nor do I see a dropping of the stick with respect to the added comments about "dirty campaign tricks". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
    • What am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to be OK with the misrepresentation of the vote, the misrepresentation of my views, the double jeopardy, etc? I have to be OK with those things or I'm not dropping the stick? Seriously? You would be totally OK with it if a vote to ban you was mis-counted against you, your views were misrepresented, and when you asked that they be presented accurately, your request was blown off? Sorry, but I'm a human being. I have feelings. Despite all the misrepresentation, I haven't cursed anyone out. I don't see you accepting my request for someone work with me. --Elvey^(t•c) 23:22, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Tryptofish to be clear, the proposal is a topic ban from "COI, broadly construed" - so not just the COIN noticeboard.Jytdog (talk) 00:04, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, that's right. But, as is becoming ever-increasingly clear, it is far from Draconian, in context. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

For the record, all the votes above were made before Johnuniq's false summary of the vote was noted or corrected. Also, there was just a !vote on this; which shows a 6:4 result. Holding another one because there was no consensus because User:Collect, User:Snowded User:GoodDay and User:Elvey opposed is unfair and a policy violation.--Elvey^(t•c) 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I want to note that I modified Elvey's formatting to make this section more manageable, but Elvey's reference to votes above refers to votes dated prior to 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC), so anything added subsequently to that time is after the response to the summary. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I agreed to drop the stick, and have done so. I did:

1. stop informing users who are told not to edit articles because they have a COI the truth - that the COI policy guideline only discourages users with a COI from editing but does not forbid it and
2. Stop informing users that if it applies to them, they must comply with the ToU clauses requiring disclosure of FCoI.

The quality of the reasoning in the !vote so far is interesting. There isn't any. Proposals must be !votes. So I'd appreciate a succinct description from anyone voting support of what I've supposedly done wrong that doesn't (unlike much of what's come so far) grossly misrepresent what I've done, or ignore my defenses, or throw out [[WP: links without explanation and evidence. You want to ban me cuz I "exhausted the patience of the community"? What am I supposed to learn from that? Cuz right now, what I'm hearing is that the policies and guidelines be damnd; you can respect them and still get banned. Anyone willing to work with me to understand what I've done wrong, please say so here. Someone I can run some edits by before making them could work well. Johnuniq provided a reason for his !vote. (It was based on blatantly false evidence, yes, but at least he offered a non-circular reason, which no one else has.)

I hadn't read of any of Jytdogs promises to change his behavior regarding COI topics, and so I regret how I responded when I saw him misrepresenting policy again. --Elvey^(t•c) 22:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support This User talk:Johnuniq#Deliberately introducing incorrect information into an ANI discussion is not dropping the stick and reinforces the concerns expressed throughout this thread.MarnetteD|Talk 23:08, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
  • What am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to be OK with the misrepresentation of the vote, the misrepresentation of my views, the double jeopardy, etc? I have to be OK with those things or I'm not dropping the stick? Seriously? You would be totally OK with it if a vote to ban you was mis-counted against you, your views were misrepresented, and when you asked that they be presented accurately, your request was blown off? Sorry, but I'm a human being. I have feelings. Despite all the misrepresentation, I haven't cursed anyone out. --Elvey^(t•c) 23:22, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
    • Try not to yourself blocked entirely? That's why dropping the stick is about. There's more to harassment and disruption than cursing people. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
      • I asked what to do, not what to not do. I'm supposed to be OK with the misrepresentation of the vote, the misrepresentation of my views, the double jeopardy, etc? I have to be OK with those things or I'm not dropping the stick? You didn't answer that question. Please do. And see section below--Elvey^(t•c) 00:17, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support per my comments above. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 23:41, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support a ban on all COI-related commentary not just the board, as I said above. The antics go way beyond disruption at the noticeboard. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
  • For the record, I see that as a !vote about #6, because that's what you refer to, and hence a !vote in favor of Jytdog misrepresenting WP:CoI and against me pointing out what it actually is. I already agreed to stop doing that. So you're apparently voting for punitive measures. --Elvey^(t•c) 00:32, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
    • No, I'm voting that based on your inability to conduct yourself when there are potential COI issues. Your false dichotomy routine of either I support your antics or I support Jytdog's views on COI policy don't work on me. Let the closer determine how my vote goes, not your personal opinion. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:01, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support ban as stated by Ricky81682 and per MarnetteD. Having read through this, really quite lengthy, thread, it's obvious that Elvey just doesn't know when to stop. The explosion at Johnuniq for an easy to make miscount and the subsequent histrionics at GWH's talk page is evidence enough that Elvey needs to take a step back, whether it be voluntary or imposed. Blackmane (talk) 03:08, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support as proposed. I have, i think, read the whole of this, and followed it down several rabbit holes, and i cannot see any further editing by Elvey on the topic of COI ending well until he takes the time to understand all that he has been told. Honestly, i feel he's lucky to be getting off this lightly, as some of his actions (to my mind) clearly reach extremely poor levels and he's been flirting with a longer-term block. Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 09:49, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support- I don't really see any alternative at this point. This user simply won't drop the stick on his own and also seems to have suffered a near-fatal overdose of IDHT. Reyk _YO! 10:40, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support: I see all kinds of red flags in Elvey's combative, "everyone else is at fault" mentality here; even after a warning it took a block to force them to stop disrupting this thread with their repetitive wikilawyering about vote process. Elvey's counter-proposed solution is more "you guys are wrong but I'll go along with it" rather than owning that they are the one that is wrong, as many users above have strained to explain. None of that points to a user who will drop the stick, so I fully support a topic ban from the subject of COI which they don't understand/refuse to accept. Furthermore, clear evidence has been presented that Elvey followed Jytdog to several articles expressly to WP:HOUND them, so I support the suggested one-way interaction ban as well. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:02, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support. My patience is certainly exhausted, thanks to WP:IDHT here in addition to issues already noted above. Guy (Help!) 15:12, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose but with qualification. I can't see any real progress here and while I think there are wider issues around COI I can see that Elvey is his/her own worse enemy. If Elvey will accept a voluntary withdrawal from direct editing but with the right to raise concerns with a third party editor for review then that might work. If that is not OK then I would support a three month topic ban ----Snowded ^TALK 21:07, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support Clearly there are broader issues here with regard to Elvey becoming needlessly combative and retreating into IDHT stances in any area where their behaviour has come into question, but what concerns me most are the original (and to my mind, substantiated) claims of hounding which set the discussion off in the first place. I'm sure plenty of people can relate to Elvey's no-love-lost disposition towards pharmaceutical reps, but Wikipedia is not meant to be a tool for editor's personal political crusades. These comments were clearly off-topic, hostile, and in no way involved with or relevant to the improvement of the project. I echo the sentiments of Ricky81682 and others that Elvey's has used COI and other policy principles as cover to harass or otherwise adopt needlessly adversarial and disruptive behaviours with regard to other editors on issues to which said policies do not really apply. And given their resistance to accepting a clear consensus of their fellow editors here that this and other of their behaviours are inappropriate, I think we can trust they will not re-examine their behaviour with regard to the relevant policies of their own accord, so they ought to be removed from the areas in which they cannot conform to community expectations. Frankly, I'd have proposed an indefinite TBAN with a chance to appeal after a year, or even a block, but we can hope the current measure will suffice. Snow ^{let's rap} 08:25, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Now that I took the time to read this endless ANI. Softlavender (talk) 09:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Vote results

Proposal evaluations must not be mere !vote counts, but rather argument evaluations. So I asked for a succinct description from anyone voting support of what I've supposedly done wrong that doesn't (unlike much of what's come so far) grossly misrepresent what I've done, or ignore my defenses, or throw out [[WP: links without explanation and evidence. You want to ban me just the same, do so based on something I can learn from. Cuz right now, what I'm hearing is that the policies and guidelines be damned; you can respect them and still get banned. Anyone willing to work with me to understand what I've done wrong, please say so here. Someone I can run some edits by before making them could work well. Johnuniq provided such a reason for his !vote. (It was based on blatantly false evidence, yes, but at least he offered a non-circular reason, which no one else has.)

I might as well shut up now and take my beating or retire after some shady user closes this double jeopardy !vote, and not count the votes of User:Snowded or User: GoodDay, or make note of the changes I agreed to. I've said enough. Not going to change any minds no matter how valid my defence. --Elvey^(t•c) 00:17, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Simple question which you will sidestep I'm sure but how is this in any way useful in terms of fighting COI on Wikipedia? It looks like nothing more than you figuring out someone's COI and then using it to attack the entity you want to attack. You aren't Perry Masoning anyone there, just going for a cheap shot. Your goal seems to be finding problems with editors (COI being the convenient tool of the moment but civility is always a backup) so that you can lord it over people which is more destructive than any COI issues we could ever have. It's a grudge mentality that's the problem not your personal beliefs about policy. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:01, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Ok, somewhere in the middle of User talk:Elvey (Elvey refactored the page but these are the relevant edits) is a response to this. Even though this was brought up at the start of this I think, the response there reiterates my concern that Elvey treats COI issues as a tool to take advantage of, which is far from our purposes. We are not WikiNews and we are not looking for another Edward R. Murrow. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Elvey blocked for 31 hrs for ongoing disruption of this ANI discussion

I warned Elvey on his talk page ( [15] ) to stop disrupting the ANI discussion regarding his sanction as he had been. He wall-of-texted my talk page in response (acceptable) and continued here (not acceptable). I have blocked him for 31 hrs. I am concerned about a wider NOTHERE question after this string of behavior. I am not doing anything more than the 31 hr block, reporting that here, and noting my wider concern. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:14, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

We're at a WP:ROPE crossroads here. Let's see where this goes. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:24, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Before this gets archived...

It would be very helpful if an uninvolved administrator would close and enact the proposal. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:11, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Timestamp. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Why can't we get someone to close this and enact the sanction?--Adam in MO Talk 22:08, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Update

Update - two of them, both at Snowded's page:

• Where's Elvey? He declared here that he saw no more point in continuing to discuss things here and took up Snowded's offer to review COI matters about which he has concerns.
• The effort to continue HOUNDING me has continued, now by proxy, for pete's sake, here also at Snowded's talk page (there is no COI stuff at Crop desiccation; Elvey had just followed me there in his hounding). There is no dropping of the stick.Jytdog (talk) 15:42, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

and so, after I pointed out this further effort to hound me, Elvey deleted that thread (including others' comments), with an edit note that misrepresents why he went to that page and what the follow up was all about, which is stirring up stale, settled stuff on that page.Jytdog (talk) 22:26, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a repeated habit: saying something and then blanking it and being accusational when people pull up old edits. Direct communication is more helpful than running around commenting and deleting the comments as if they should be erased from everyone's minds to avoid confrontation. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:37, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

before someone jumps in here to accuse me, I also sometimes write hastily things I subsequently regret and remove them, or later redact them, all per WP:REDACT - usually with an acknowledgement that the original was wrong in some way and if necessary an apology. What Elvey has been doing here is different from that. Jytdog (talk) 14:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive editing: 188.78.134.205

• 188.78.134.205 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has engaged in persistent edit warring, disruptive editing, outright vandalism in at least one article (Corruption in Navarre), and hounding over me. The IP editor has mutated from previous 188.78.131.18 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (previously temporarily blocked for vandalism) and 188.78.129.62 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Their focus is on tracking my latest edits (check IP's contributions), as well as the Basque topic (my main topic of interest, as stated on my Userpage).

S/he shows single purpose editing, trying to add their ideas wherever s/he sees fit, but sometimes seems to be disruption for the sake of disruption (a way of wasting my time), like here. Repeats continually the need for references but does not add them, like here, or startling claims. They removed fully valid verification when they did not like it. Despite their eventual participation in discussion, shows no consensus building, and it is plagued with accusatory and incoherent language, sticking to their point and failing to listen to the arguments provided by other editors.

The pages affected have been protected by bot, but as it happens that has established the IP's reverted last version in a number of articles while they were being discussed on the talk page, which appears to me a kind of reward for disruption, since protection affects all editors alike. The latest IP editor will feel free to act again on August 3, when the ban to edit those articles is lifted. I request a clear indefinite block on 188.78.134.205 and, if possible, its sockpuppets, to avoid further disruption to the WP. Iñaki LL (talk) 19:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

(Remarks) I think that it is Iñaki who has an agenda and adds Basque origins (such in the case of Banu Qasi which I reverted) without references. By the way, I am not the IP. The IP's reversions were correct. --Maragm (talk) 20:07, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

No references?

Basque kingdom of Navarre;

• Possessing the Land: Aragon's Expansion Into Islam's Ebro Frontier Under Alfonso the Battler:1104-1134, by Clay Stalls, page 12.[16]
• The Settlement of Disputes in Early Medieval Europe, by Wendy Davies, Paul Fouracre, Cambridge University Press, page 97.[17]
• World Monarchies and Dynasties, by John Middleton, page 95.[18]
• Spain: An Oxford Archaeological Guide, by Roger Collins, page 31.[19]

Inigo Arista a Basque;

• Muslim Spain and Portugal: A Political History of Al-Andalus, by Hugh Kennedy, page 61.[20]
• R.L. Trask, The History of Basque, page 14, "In about 824 a certain Inigo Arista in turn otherthrew the last trappings of Frankish hegemony and founded the tiny Kingdom of Pamplona. Inigo, like most of the population of Navarre was a Basque."[21]
• A History of Medieval Spain, by Joseph F. O'Callaghan, page 107.[22]
• Conquerors, Brides, and Concubines, by Simon Barton, page 26.[23]
• The Encyclopaedia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, Volume 25, page 541.[24]

According to this source, Basque was the "lingua navarorrum", but not used in a written or official capacity;

• Basque Sociolinguistics: Language, Society, and Culture, by Estibaliz Amorrortu, page 14.[25]

Maybe the IP and Maragm should do a better job of researching, instead of making accusations based on their own personal opinions. I will stick with the facts I have listed above. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:50, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Listen, IP 188.78.134.205 (or should I say Maragm?), I did not bring the issue here about references, whatever you have add them on the right place and the right statement, refuting the main statement, that the king was a Basque, period. The problem is as follows, not only did Kansas Bear add loads of references on the talk page, but I added myself one fully valid inline citation and you replaced it gratuitously. You are wasting my time and that of other good editors big time, contribute what you need to contribute, and do it as smooth as possible. You engaged in blatant vandalism in Corruption in Navarre, adding an incongruous explanation line, since you removed loads of content you did not like. I demand a rapid executive measure, I do not have time to engage in a long discussion that will last days, since that is the disruptive editor's aim, to cause frustration. I demand an executive measure over an IP tracking disruptively my edits, non-responsive to anything, and not collaborating. Maybe the vandalism resource is the right place, the IP has been warned by now. Iñaki LL (talk) 06:57, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

The only thing was to add this remark on the talk page of the Banu Qasi article agreeing with the IP's reversion. I can assure you I am not the IP and if you have any doubts go to a checkuser. --Maragm (talk) 17:51, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I find terribly shameful this way of ¿reasoning? consisting of accusing others of being the same person, in order to disguise the lack of true reasons about the content of the disputed articles.

If anybody want an administrator to check my connection data to verify that I am not another user different than me, please, go on. I do not have anything to hide. The truth is this conflict is, as Maragm said, that the user Iñaki LL has an obvious strategy of imposing slanted labels and biased or false claims focused on the consideration of Navarre as a "Basque" territory. Sometimes he does it by imposing a statement without any references. For example in the article 1833 Territorial Division of Spain, in which he is obsessed with impossing the biased expression "Basque Districts" (regarding Navarre as one of them) in spite of the fact that there is no academic usage of it (as he knows perfectly, because he has been unable to give any reference). Sometimes he does by adding politically slanted labels to historical figures and trying to support that with references of books published 50 years ago or whose verification can't be done by internet. For example in the case of Iñigo Arista the vast majority of the Navarrese historians agree about the absence of evidences about the filiation of Íñigo Arista, and significantly (as I remarked in the Talk Page of the article by giving the due reference) the Gran Enciclopedia Navarra (a well known and prestigious source of information comparable to the British Encyclopaedia whose content is accessible on line) states this fact, and tens of references of books and scientific papers (much more recent that the given by Iñaki LL) regard the Kingdom of Navarre as Navarrese/European/Hispanic kingdom and not as a "Basque Kingdom", moreover no king of Navarre entitle himself "king of Basques", never). In the case of the article Corruption in Navarre everybody can realize by reading only a few lines that the writing is clearly biased and is utterly aimed to convince that a particular political party is "corrupt" by regarding irrationally as "corruption" several events that they have nothing to do with corruption like a problem with a catering company (!).188.78.134.205 (talk) 22:15, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Your effort to add references, Kansas, is highly appreciated, no matter what the actual target issue is. As for Maragm, I did not report 188.78.134.205 for sock-puppetry, although there are at least 3 different IPs with strings pulled by the same master. You speak like 188.78.134.205, your accusatory style lacking in detail is just as coarse and incongruous as that of the IP, well, you do not let me many chances (WP:DUCK). You intervened here just about 20 minutes after I posted the report template on 188.78.134.205's page, you claimed you had reverted me in article Banu Qasi, well, a simple check of the diffs tells it all here and here (helloooo). By the way, I made clear my views on this issue in the Talk:Banu Qasi, but both Maragm and her (her?) alter ego 188.78.134.205 have shown a total inability to engage in consensus and have kept pushing ("it is utterly illegitimate stating that the Banu Qasi were 'Basque'", it seems that for the IP it is about a moral issue...). I won't dwell on content issues or incongruous talking, as attempted by 188.78.134.205 in the last intervention above ("books published 50 years ago", don't make me laugh, you were attempting to justify your position with an 800 AD propagandistic reference!) since this is about someone throwing out of the window the WP guidelines and policies all in a row, as well as WP:HOUND. Iñaki LL (talk) 22:49, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

You say: "...your accusatory style lacking in detail is just as coarse and incongruous..:". I have not accused anyone of anything. And yes, you're right, I did not revert in the Banu Qasi article and just added a remark and a source, sorry for the despiste. Lorenzo Jiménez has written not just the article I mentioned but a book, recently published on the Banu Qasi which I don't have with me because I'm on vacation, but I have many other sources that I use to reference articles and none mention the supposed Basque origin of the Banu Qasi. And as far as I remember, I have not intervened in any of the other articles you mentioned, just the Banu Qasi and I always log in with my nick and I never edit under an IP, so stop making the accusation that I am that IP with whom I just happened to agree on the Banu Qasi issue and added a reference. Agur ba. --Maragm (talk) 07:49, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

As I explained on my talk page, I stick to evidence shown in all editors' records, you Maragm engaged yourself in the dispute. Instead of adding accuracy and detailed evidence, you have come to say that I want to add Basque origins and "agenda" and stuff, nothing said on 188.78.134.205's irregular behaviour. In fact, if you get down to detail, you will read that I may agree that it is not certain that Cassius was Basque (nor that he was Visigoth), but all the same... In fact, I did not add that information myself originaly. 188.78.134.205 not only added its own rejection of just about anything Basque, but added generic information on the religion of the Banu Qasi lineage ("Christian", Syrian Christian perhaps??? Did not the article mention that they were muwallads?, sic), and other ambiguous information (Pyrenean...), all without references. Well, no wonder, since the IP's drive is to cause disruption and frustration. Iñaki LL (talk) 13:24, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

You'd better use all the time that you're spending in making false accusations, in providing references about those inexistent "Basque districts" (until now you have been utterly unable to do), in showing the references supporting that a problem with a catering company is "corruption" (you have been also unable to) or in explaining the reason why the Gran Enciclopedia Navarra (the most important on line source of information about Navarre) is not a valid source of information for Wikipedia.The truth about Iñigo Arista is almost the same about the Banu Qasi. The filiation of this historical figure is unknown (that is what Gran Enciclopedia Navarra confirms). There is no notice about his birth (date and place). The only medieval source of information about the lineage Arista states that the familiar origins of Iñigo Arista were in the French Central Pyrenees (Bigorra). But even that is not enough in order to state that Iñigo Arista was bigorran, cause this only source of information is dated two centuries later, and so the only certainty about this matter is that his origin remain unknown (as the proper Wikipedia article explains). Trying to report to different administrators or in different days (as you do each time that an administrator decline to validate your desire of imposition of unreferenced content or introduction of biased labels), or trying to undermine the credibility of a user by sprinkling accusations of being the same person (as you are doing in order to disguise your lack of reasons about the true content of the dispute or your argumentative impotence against Maragm) are just additional evidences of the questionable aims of your behaviour. Please, don´t confuse knowledgement with political opinions. There are many things in the world and many aspects of the reality that don´t match with my preferences, but I have a minimum of honesty in order to not to try to impose them on knowledgement. Think again, please. 95.20.249.28 (talk) 16:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

And, obviously, I carry on being the same IP user, now identified 95.20.249.28 and not with 188.78.134.205 because my device works with dynamic IP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.20.249.28 (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Again, I must agree with the IP. The artice on Íñigo Arista is protected now and contains your version, again, A Basque origin, as you had erroneously claimed on the Banu Qasi. Yes, you definitely have an agenda and it is you behavor that is irregular. Now go to a checkuser to confirm if I and the IP are the same person. I guess you can't take any criticism and lash out when contradicted, accusing anybody who disagrees with being a sockpuppet or whatever. --Maragm (talk) 21:15, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

O, this is funny, so you were "over and out", and here you come again, Maragm, with personal sweeping accusations, well done for your contribution to the WP! Listen, if you are on holidays as you said, and you feel you got involved inadvertently, get a break and chill out, instead of adding fire as you are doing now. Again, you, like the IP, are not sticking to evidence but ad hominem sweeping arguments, and you are talking yourself out.

As I said, there is not talk on content, I accept whatever provided by the references (let's move on... even the "Gran" Enciclopedia, a whitewashing resource sponsored and managed by the anti-Basque, now outgoing, sectarian government of Navarre), over. That is just a diversion of the disruptive editing, POV pushing, WP:HOUND, removal of content and references and a conspicuous do-as-I-say attitude. My work on the WP is my best support, and everything is there, so I have no worries. Sorry, I have to say, what worries me is the absence of the administrator, this is a straightforward case as regards WP guidelines and policies.— Preceding Iñaki LL comment added by Iñaki LL (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Labelling the Gran Enciclopedia Navarra as a "whitewashing resource sponsored and managed by the anti-Basque sectarian government of Navarre" is a major evidence about that your behaviour in Wikipedia is not related with any sincere desire of adding knowledgement to this project. Take notice: The Gran Enciclopedia Navarra is a prestigious academic work published for the first time in 1990 (when the government that you label "anti-Basque" it was not even in power).95.20.246.45 (talk) 15:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

As for the IP, o, at last a speck of honesty. It is funny that you say I switch administrators, well I have not. I used once and you were temporarily blocked for disruptive editing and vandalism. In contrast, despite being an experienced WP editor if your knowledge of the WP is anything to go by, you avoid warnings and blocks behind different IPs, so that they can not be held against you, but well, now we know at least that there is master behind a number of IPs. Bye Iñaki LL (talk) 06:10, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

First, Maragm and I were "the same person". Now, behind us is an evil "master". What is the next that you are going to try in order to disguise that you are unable to explain why a problem with a catering company is corruption and to give references about the usage of those inexistent "Basque districts"??95.20.246.45 (talk) 15:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I won't comment on the manipulative rhetoric above. The same POV-pushing, the-worse-the-better Battleground mentality. I add a link to Talk:Navarre, as added by Kansas below for further clues. Iñaki LL (talk) 05:12, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Fixed link to the relevant article in previous comment: Talk Kingdom of Navarre (it was added below by Kansas anyway). Iñaki LL (talk) 14:45, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

This is never ending, latest update: Reconquista Iñaki LL (talk) 21:58, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Amazing that so much can be placed on the Enciclopedia Navarra when it makes no mention of Inigo's ethnicity! And yet, in contrast, the IP can categorically ignore sources he does not like! IF any of the sources I have posted on the Talk:Kingdom of Navarre page are "biased" then the IP needs to "put up or shut up" and take those sources to the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard!
Also, just where is the Basque article in the Gran Enciclopedia Navarra? Link? --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:06, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Xenophrenic's WP:TE at Talk:Ward Churchill academic misconduct investigation‎

I call to your attention what I believe to be prima facie violations of WP:TE#One who ignores or refuses to answer ... by Xenophrenic at Talk:Ward_Churchill_academic_misconduct_investigation. Examples of these WP:TE violations:

1) In response to: "Justify including in the article information from a source that the source believes is absurd or manifestly untrue." You have not answered the question. How do you justify you [sic.] edit?" Xenophrenic continues to not address the issue of "absurd or manifestly untrue".

2) There are a number of good-faith questions that I have asked that Xenophrenic has simply ignored; see the talk page. If you'd like I'll list them; let me know if you'd like me to do so. Deicas (talk) 21:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Observation from an uninvolved editor. I noticed that Xenophrenic responded to several issues that you raised.

• First, if you are going to ask a question, do so. That involves an interrogatory, not a declarative sentence.
• Second, your statements seem to be directive, as in "Justify," "hereinbelow provide," etc.
• Third, you are not entitled to an answer.
• Fourth, this appears to be WP:WIKILAWYERING.
• Finally, you may want to work on your communication style. GregJackP Boomer! 22:24, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: just above you assert "Third, you are not entitled to an answer." How do you reconcile this assertion with the Wikipedia policy described in WP:TE#One who ignores or refuses to answer ...?

Deicas (talk) 00:40, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:TE is not a policy, it is an essay. You are not entitled to an answer. No one elected you wikigod, nor is there any policy that states you are entitled to an answer. GregJackP Boomer! 00:54, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: I call to your attention, from WP:TE, "Failure to cooperate with such simple requests may be interpreted as evidence of a bad faith effort to exasperate or waste the time of other editors.". Note, above, "How do you justify you [sic.] edit?". How do you explain the failure of Xenophrenic to answer this question, which lies at the crux of the disputed edit, without seeing a violation of Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith obligation?

Deicas (talk) 01:18, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: with regard to your comments above "Fourth, this appears to be WP:WIKILAWYERING" and "No one elected you wikigod". Would you please either strike these comments out or justify your violation of your Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith obligation?

Deicas (talk) 01:18, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:TE is an essay. It is not a rule, nor a policy, nor a guideline. It is what someone thinks. No more, no less.

The cites you are making above are perfect examples of wikilawyering. After you requested I strike, I looked at your edit history, and since 2004 in your 450 edits, you have been repeatedly warned about wikilawyering. It's a pattern of behavior, and you are exhibiting it here, again. Please stop doing so.

In any event, you are not entitled to an answer from Xenophrenic, nor to a further answer from me. GregJackP Boomer! 01:42, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: With regard to your "WP:TE is an essay. It is not a rule, nor a policy, nor a guideline", above: in retrospect I should have cited WP:DR which *is* policy. Specificity: "To help other editors understand the reasoning behind your edits, always explain your changes in the edit summary. If an edit is too complex to explain in an edit summary, or the change is contentious, add a section to the talk page that explains your rationale. Be prepared to justify your changes to other editors on the talk page". I have difficulty reconciling this policy with your statement above: "... you are not entitled to an answer from Xenophrenic ..."? Would you please expand on your reasoning?

Deicas (talk) 05:39, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Nope. GregJackP Boomer! 05:45, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

This seems to be a routine content dispute, acerbated by: (a) a very minor edit war or slightly aggressive BRD-ing, and (b) some difficulty reconciling communications styles between Xenophrenic, who describes themselves as "shy" about talk page comments, and Deicas, who is fairly voluminous, pointed, and slightly odd in their talk page discussion style. All in good faith no doubt, each of us has our unique voice, it just looks like people need a little extra effort to try to communicate. It's only going to become a behavior issue if people make it one, otherwise that's what talk pages are for. Although perhaps a content issue there are some significant BLP and NPOV policy issues here because we have a prominent professor who claimed (falsely it appears) to be Native American and who was fired for academic misconduct, promoting or making up untrue but widely believed historical claims that American military committed acts of genocide by spreading small pox blankets among indigenous villages. The professor is still alive and still has defenders, so this topic can get quite heated. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:42, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Even the above statement can raise discussion. I'm no fan of the wannabe, but I would state that he was "promoting or making up untrue using unsupported, but widely believed historical claims. . . ." There are some others who have published along the same lines, and it is a matter of faith among the tribes (see Denzin). I don't think it is an ANI issue. GregJackP Boomer! 07:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's the weirdness of Wikipedia's PC policies, rule #1 about fight club history is that you can't discuss fight club history. Some person, rightly upset over historical events that could justifiably be called a genocide, starts making stuff up including that he is a descendent of the victims. Meanwhile, we editors have to tiptoe around the facts because of obscure policies that affect even our ability to discuss policy amongst ourselves. So we cannot describe people as frauds or impostors, even in the rather interesting space of — what do they call this now? — trans-racialism. - Wikidemon (talk) 07:54, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

No, I agree with you that he is a fraud who took an honorary membership and went way too far with it. The problem is that there was genocide of the American Indian, but since that was one of his research areas, any proposal or position that he ever advocated is immediately attacked without ever going to the actual merits of the argument. GregJackP Boomer! 16:00, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Xenophrenic has repeatedly included information in the article deriving from Guenter Lewy's writing (ie. [26]) that Lewy describes as non-creditable (coming from a source that "manifestly does not suggest that the U.S. Army distributed infected blankets"). So I ask User:Xenophrenic why he's including information from Lewy that Lewy believes is not creditable. And I get no explanation. And I ask variations of the question. And spend more time. And I get no explanation. If I had a putative explanation for including non-creditable information then the content dispute is addressable. Absent an explanation then there is no content inclusion reason to discuss. Hence, I view this as a behavioural question. If as, Wikidemon suggests, this should be viewed as a NPOV issue then I'll happily agree.

Deicas (talk) 12:17, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Asked and answered above. GregJackP Boomer! 16:00, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Another way, resolving this issue as a content dispute, would be for user:Xenophrenic to provide a citation to Stiffarm and Lane for the claim that Lewy finds so objectionable. Then the portion of the article under dispute would look something like: "Stiffarm and Lane assert X [citation to Stiffarm and Lane]. Lewy views X as not plausible because ... [citation to Lewy]".

Deicas (talk) 12:33, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

That's content, not behavior. GregJackP Boomer! 16:00, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, it is content, not behavior, but it may be a way to end the current dispute. Isn't that what we're striving for?

Deicas (talk) 17:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Xenophrenic just removed a portion of text with citations [[27]] providing as the reason for the removal "(continued removal of Lewy assertion pending Talk resolution, as half of it was left in the article.)". The issue in dispute on the talk page is one, of multiple, uses of one of the deleted citations? How is this not disruptive editing? Deicas (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Would someone *please* persuade User:Xenophrenic to stop his disruptive editing? Please?

Deicas (talk) 19:18, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Is anyone interested in a proposal that, if accepted, would resolve the behavior issue, close this AN/I, and roll the dispute back to a content dispute?

Deicas (talk) 04:24, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Stalled AN/I: User:Xenophrenic's WP:TE at Talk:Ward Churchill academic misconduct investigation

Would an uninvolved administrator(s) please look at User:Xenophrenic's WP:TE at Talk:Ward Churchill academic misconduct investigation? This AN/I seems to be making no progress. Note that the article on which the disputed behaviour is occurring is flagged as "The subject of this article is controversial". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deicas (talk • contribs) 06:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

It's not quite a stall but things seem to be gong in the wrong direction. Not a full scale edit war, but both editors in question are now at about 2RR in the last 24 hours or so. - Wikidemon (talk) 08:22, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I second User:Wikidemon's suggestion to "Please keep discussion in one place". I suggest that the disputed article section be rolled-back to the start of this dispute and protected until this AN/I is resolved.

Deicas (talk) 08:54, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I noted that Deicas reverted Xenophrenic's edits to his preferred version, Xenophrenic answered Deicas's question on the talk page,([28], noting that Wikidemon was participating in discussions) and then Deicas refused to further discuss the content issue until the ANI was resolved ([29], because Xenophrenic did not "comply" with the demand of Deicas), which is, in my view, disruptive on the part of Deicas. ANI is for behavior problems, not content disputes. Either this should go back to the article talk page, or we should WP:BOOMERANG Deicas for his bad faith in resolving the content dispute. This seems to clearly be an example of WP:WIKILAWYERING, which he has been warned for on multiple occasions. [30], [31], where he was topic-banned from the Paul Krugman article for similar behavior. GregJackP Boomer! 09:15, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

As User:GregJackP has allowed editing of the article section to occur concurrently with resolution of this AN/I the situation has become very confusing and the BRD cycle is not being performed.

User:GregJackP: You you assert [[32]] "Xenophrenic answered Deicas's question on the talk page,([[33]]". I've asked a number of questions: which *specific* question do you believe Xenophrenic meaningfully answered? What text from Xenophrenic talk page edit do you believe is the meaning answer? Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: I observe that you have, yet again accused[[34]] me of WP:WIKILAWYERING. You've done this before and said that my citing of Wikipedia policy was an act of WP:WIKILAWYERING and refused further clarification. Would you please cite the policy or guideline that deprecates the citing of policy or guidelines? Your accusation is also contrary to theWP:WIKILAWYERING essay:

Because reasoned arguments in a debate necessarily include both elements of fact and references to principles, disputants who lack such an argument sometimes try to undermine arguments they can not otherwise overcome by just tossing out the naked accusation that their opponent is a wiki-lawyer. This is not a good faith tactic and does not foster a collegial consensus-seeking atmosphere. Therefore, any accusation of wikilawyering should include a brief explanation justifying use of the term.

Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

User:GregJackP: You say I "*refused* to further discuss the content issue until the AN/I was resolved" this is not true. I engaged in wishful thinking that this dispute could be resolved in an orderly manner in a single location. So much for that wish. You accuse me of making a "demand". All I've done propose solutions that have been ignored. Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I also note the "the phrase 'You are wikilawyering' is an insult" and you also accuse me of "bad faith in resolving the content dispute". BAD FAITH? I'm just trying to persuade User:Xenophrenic to abide by the BRD cycle, thus avoiding the current chaos, and to meaningfully respond to questions about his edits and reversions [citations of my requests available on request]. How are these actions evidence of bad faith? Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

[User:GregJackP]: I've asked you a number of meaningful questions above. I hope that you won't again reply "In any event, you are not entitled to ... a further answer from me. "

Deicas (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

This edit is an example of WP:WIKILAWYERING. I also linked to places where you have been warned about it in the past, and noted that you were topic-banned from the Paul Krugman article. Those diffs and links are called evidence, at least in the wiki-sense. Keep up this nonsense and I'll propose another topic-ban. Your call. GregJackP Boomer! 12:36, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I observe you you continue to accuse me of WP:WIKILAWYERING yet you still refuse to cite the specific text that you believe constitues the offense. Careful reasoning isn't WP:WIKILAWYERING! Surely you're not claiming that every word in edit is WP:WIKILAWYERING? Perhaps you be so kind as to point out *specific* example(s) of "violating [a policy or guideline's] spirit or underlying principles" or "pettifogging"? Why have you allowed a simple AN/I matter that could have been resolved with a brief admonition to Xenophrenic to "meet his obligations under WP:DR"; reverting the article to the start of the dispute and; starting the BRD process; to become an opportunity to heap invective on me?

Deicas (talk) 15:21, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I provided the links, this is a habit of yours that you may want to break. I've noted that you have tried to restart the talk page discussion that you arbitrarily ended, why don't you see if that doesn't take care of the content issue? I really don't think that you want to pursue sanctions here, the last time didn't end so well for you. GregJackP Boomer! 18:28, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

[[User talk:GregJackP | GregJackP]: I continue to seek sanctions. What needs to be done to resolve this matter? Please advise. I note you are advocating the deletion of the article over which this editing conduct AN/I is based. I note that you are overtly sympathetic ("This user knows the Black Hills were illegally stolen from the Sioux ..." on your user page) to the cause for which Ward Churchill advocated and Ward Churchill academic misconduct investigation brought discredit upon. Are you indeed an "uninvolved administrator"?

Deicas (talk) 19:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Which "talk page discussion that you arbitrarily ended" did I end? How could I "end" a talk page discussion?

Deicas (talk) 19:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I note that Xenophrenic is back to his WP:DR violations, by failing to provide requested editing reasoning, at the talk page. What is necessary to get this AN/I resolved and Xenophrenic's conduct corrected? Deicas (talk) 19:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

RfC spamming, canvasing, cross posting. User: HughD

HughD for violation of guidelines on publicizing a RfC, namely [and excessive cross-posting] and vote stacking. HughD opened a RfC to insert information into the article Americans for Prosperity.[[35]] This RfC was opened on July 9th and notifications were place in the following locations:

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics [[36]]
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States[[37]]
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Organizations [[38]]
• Talk:Political activities of the Koch brothers [[39]]

The initial posting may be WP:VOTESTACK because it was not posted to all the categories associated with the article and did include a category that would likely be inclined to support HughD's POV on the topic. The RfC should have also been posted in WikiProject Conservatism (a category listed with the article). The inclusion of Political activities of the Koch brothers may be seen as trying to stack the deck. HughD did not correct the failure to post the Project Conservatism noticeboard even after being warned.[[40]] - Note, warning dated July 27th

Later that day HughD added the following additional RfC notifications:

• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard [[41]]
• Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard [[42]]
• Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard [[43]]

Seven RfC (eight including a notice on the RfC noticeboard) seems more than sufficient.

As of July 17th HughD's proposal did not have a clear consensus for inclusion. Since that time HughD has published or bumped previous RfC 20 additional times. This includes adding new information which could be seen as biasing as well as targeting talk pages or noticeboards which he feels may be sympathetic to his POV while avoiding pages/boards that would likely oppose his view.

Postings at new locations:

• Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous) [[44]]

Bumps to original postings:

• Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard [[45]]
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Organizations [[46]]
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics [[47]]
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States [[48]]
• Talk:Political activities of the Koch brothers [[49]]

New postings at locations of previous postings:

• Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard [[50]]
• Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard (second new post) [[51]]
• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard [[52]]
• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard [[53]]
• Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous) (Original post was July 16th, 8 days prior) [[54]]
• Talk:Citizens United v. FEC (This is a location that may find a sympathetic ear to HughD's POV thus is probably canvasing in addition to cross posting and spamming) [[55]]

Bumps after being warned of excessive posting/canvasing (Bumps/posts on July 30th or later)

• Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard [[56]]
• Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard [[57]]
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Organizations [[58]]
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics [[59]]
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States [[60]]
• Talk:Political activities of the Koch brothers [[61]]
• Talk:Citizens United v. FEC [[62]]
• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard (this is actually yet another new post) [[63]]
• Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous) [[64]]

User was warned of excessive posting/canvasing HughD was warned on his talk page prior to making the July 30th updates.[[65]] The user had been previously warned in conversation by a number of editors. [[66]], [[67]], [[68]], [[69]] Additionally Hugh has asked that others be aware of Wikipedia policies on canvassing.[[70]] Thus he is unlikely to be ignorant of the guidelines.

HughD has a history of disruptive editing on this and related topics and has 3 recent blocks (June 23rd, June 10th, April 10th). The most recent two are for edits related to this article [[71]]

This is an editor who should know better but is unwilling to work within the rules to get the changes he thinks are best. I'm posting this ANI as an outside editor who has replied to the RfC in question but has never edited on the subject.

HughD has been notified of this ANI. A notification will also be added to the article in question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Springee (talk • contribs) 15:13, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - For additional context, folks might want to check out this other recent ANI complaint against HughD (not much came of it), and Hugh's recent AE filing against Arthur Rubin (ditto). This all relates to a broader and rather ugly dispute over the content of Americans for Prosperity that's been going on for some time. As someone who's been involved in this debate, I'll just say the same thing I said when this came up before; as disruptive as HughD's behavior may have been, the NPOV problem that he's been trying to correct is a very obvious and very real one, and he's been up against an awful lot of battleground behavior and IDHT from other editors in this dispute. Not saying that excuses any disruption he may have caused, but I do think that the conduct of parties on both sides of this dispute should be scrutinized carefully by un-involved admins. Fyddlestix (talk) 15:50, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Initial statement of reported editor All publicizing of the request for comment Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds is conformant with WP:RFC "Publicizing an RfC", WP:Discussion notices "Best practices", and WP:CANVASS.

WP:RFC reminds us that WP:CANVASS "prohibits notifying a chosen group of editors who may be biased." WP:VOTESTACKING clearly prohibits selective notification based on who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view. Please note that the option of notifying WP:CONSERVATISM was discussed at article talk five days ago 27 July 2015 and following, please see. Please note that the reporting user has filed an ANI report of canvassing, but has not themselves notified WP:CONSERVATISM. Please note that no editor has notified WP:CONSERVATISM. There is no deadline. If the consensus is that notification to WP:CONSERVATISM is conformant, and an editor was willing to place the notification, I would support a reasonable extension to the RfC period to allow additional time for comments from the participants in WP:CONSERVATISM.

"Bumps" WP:Discussion notices "Best practices" states that "regular updates may be appropriate" and that "setting a time for the discussion to end" is a best practice.

WP:RFC authorizes publicizing an RfC at the "talk pages of closely related articles or policies." Political activities of the Koch brothers and Citizens United v. FEC are closely related to Americans for Prosperity, as evidenced by the "See Also" section, please see. Hugh (talk) 04:58, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Please note 19:24, 31 July 2015 my good colleague User:Capitalismojo, on record in the Survey section of the RfC, deleted Citizens United v. FEC from Americans_for_Prosperity#See_also. Hugh (talk) 04:58, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Kindly decline this report. An important aspect of Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds is to solicit community-wide input regarding a local consensus regarding a local interpretation of our neutrality pillar. Your comments at Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds are welcome by most of us. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:42, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Not seeing any canvasing, canvasing is by definition non neutral. What I saw was a neutrally worded message on multiple forums. I agree that this complaint needs to be dismissed. KoshVorlon We are all Kosh 16:57, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Please see the canvasing links at the top of the ANI. There are two issues. The first, is that HughD has been selective in where he has posted his RfCs. The much bigger issue is spamming and cross posting. The excessive number of posts is spamming and against guidelines listed in the WP:CAN. Springee (talk) 17:40, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I am very happy to say that I support the right of HughD to post wherever and whenever he wants, just as I support the right of other editors to do so. "The solution to the problems caused by freedom of speech is more freedom of speech." This complaint should be dismissed post haste. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Any claim that the canvassing is "neutral" requires failure to understand basic English. Also, the postings should not contain the arguments for inclusion without including arguments against inclusion. Hugh's claim that reporting the RfC to WikiProject Conservatism would balance the canvassing is failed and irrelevant, unless Hugh is banned from the project and is unable to make the announcement. It's failed because the RfC has been going on with the unbalanced announcements for over two weeks, and irrelevant because it doesn't excuse Hugh's actions.

This is more appropriate on the discussion page of the RfC, but the only way the RfC could be perceived as not being hopelessly biased is for it to be closed, restarted with neutral wording, advertised ONLY to the projects, not the noticeboards or irrelevant talk pages, and the the current participants NOT specifically notified of the restart. I'd be willing to work with Hugh on neutral wording if he would agree not to make his non-neutral wording other than in the actual RfC. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:43, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Forgive me Arthur, but I'm not seeing where Hugh made an "argument" for inclusion in any of the diffs provided above. What are you referring to specifically? Fyddlestix (talk) 19:54, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Commenting user @Arthur Rubin: WP:RFC says "one or more" and specifically authorizes notification of RfCs at noticeboards. On 9 July, after WP:NPOV was notified, you commented: "This is inappropriate WP:CANVASSing, especially since it's already been brought up on the reliable sources board, and consensus leaned against." May I respectfully ask, is it your interpretation of WP:CANVASS, that RfC notifications are limited to one and only one noticeboard? May I respectfully ask, is it your interpretation of WP:CANVASS, that an early local consensus at one venue, however weak, whichever direction, limits RfC notification at other venues? Hugh (talk) 17:36, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Commenting user @Arthur Rubin: WP:Discussion notices "Best practices" states that "regular updates may be appropriate" and that "setting a time for the discussion to end" is a best practice. On 31 July you deleted an update to the RfC notice on WP:NPOV setting a time for the discussion to end. On 31 July you deleted an update to the RfC notice on WP:ORN setting a time for the discussion to end. The RfC concerns a content issue at at Americans for Prosperity, a WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement related article. May I respectfully ask, do you believe deleting from a noticeboard, an update to an RfC notice setting an end date for a discussion of a content issue at a TPM article, was the type of edits our community had in mind when our Arbitration Committee relaxed your topic ban? Thank you for your thoughts. Hugh (talk) 17:55, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Commenting user @Arthur Rubin: on 24 July you deleted, and on 31 July you used OneClickArchiver to delete, an update to an RfC notice on WP:RSN, prior to the expiration of the RfC comment period. May I respectfully ask, do you believe deleting from a noticeboard, an RfC notice regarding a content issue at a TPM article, is in the spirit of what our community had in mind when our Arbitration Committee relaxed your topic ban? Thank you in advance for your thoughts. Hugh (talk) 18:10, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Commenting user @Arthur Rubin: WP:RFC says "one or more" and specifically authorizes notification of RfCs at the talk pages of closely related articles. On 27 July you used OneClickArchiver to delete an RfC notice regarding a content dispute at Americans for Prosperity, a WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement related article, from Talk:Political activities of the Koch brothers, another, closely-related TPM article. May I respectfully ask, how in your mind do you reconcile this deletion with the spirit if not the letter of our Arbitration Committee's relaxation of your topic ban? Thank you in advance for your thoughts. Hugh (talk) 18:37, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not seeing a canvassing or a votestacking issue. I am seeing a lot of effort to bring more outside views into a fairly obscure topic area, which is beneficial. More people being involved in the RfC should result in a more representative consensus. If some interested wikiprojects were not notified, that's easily rectified. If HughD were selectively notifying individual editors or wording the notifications in a partisan manner, then I would conclude otherwise.- MrX 18:29, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm honestly not well-versed in what is or isn't canvassing/campaigning, but if consensus here ends up being that this isn't a case of canvassing or votestacking by Hugh, then perhaps other editors' repeated repeated refactoring of Hugh's talk page posts to remove the RFC notices bears scrutiny: [72][73][74][75][76][77][78][79][80][81][82][83][84][85]. These editors have been very aggressive about removing Hugh's posts and have [86] accused him of edit warring for trying to restore his own talk page posts since this thread was opened. Fyddlestix (talk) 19:49, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• I'm quite curious why Hugh posted the RFC notice multiple times on three of four related WikiProject pages (Organizations, United States, and Politics) while never posting the notice to WikiProject Conservatism. This seems like selective posting to me. When you couple this with the multiple postings to Citizens United v. FEC (the posting of the RFC notice to this page has been reverted by three different editors, and restored by Hugh four times), it looks rather odd to me. Hugh, could you explain your thinking behind not notifying WikiProject Conservatism? Perhaps if you posted the RFC notice there, it would help to clear up this matter. Thank you. Champaign Supernova (talk) 18:39, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

  I just notified WikiProject Conservatism. Are there any others that should be notified?- MrX 20:55, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

  • Thank you! Champaign Supernova (talk) 20:58, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

  Posting to WikiProject Conservatism can be seen as canvassing. It clearly has a conservative bias while the other projects connected to the page are seemingly neutral. Even on the WikiProject Conservatism talk page, it says "please note that posting here in order to try to recruit editors with a particular political point of view is contrary to the intent of this project, and may be regarded as a violation of the WP:Canvassing guideline." The purpose of posting a notice there is to recruit people from a group with a conservative bias for input on a RFC and doesn't merely seek assistance in how to approach a discussion or seek editing help. Just because it's labeled as a project, doesn't mean it gets excused from canvassing efforts. Clearly, if there was an explicitly liberal project that Hugh posted to, while ignoring the conservative project, then these concerns would have merit.Scoobydunk (talk) 22:05, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Commenting user @Champaign Supernova: How long should we extend the comment period to accommodate full participation from our colleagues at WP:CONSERVATISM? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 04:41, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Commenting user @Champaign Supernova: you expressed concern regarding the notice of the RfC to WP:CONSERVATISM. There is no deadline. We will hold off on the close of the RfC until we hear from you. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 03:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Seeing that I never suggested extending the comment period in order to hear input from members of WikiProject Conservatism, but rather asked you why you never notified that project (you never answered my question, or notified that project), I find your question about how long I would extend the comment period odd. I've never advocated extending it. And neither you or I have any control over when it the comment period closes, since we are both involved parties and can't close it ourselves. Our opinions on when it should close don't really matter at all. Champaign Supernova (talk) 00:03, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. You can find my answer in my "initial statement" above, following "WP:RFC reminds us...", sorry you missed it. As per WP:Requests_for_comment#Ending_RfCs, we can extend with consensus. I understand you do not favor extending Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds. Sorry you find my question odd, I mistakenly thought you were concerned about participation in Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 00:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Since you've never given a reason why you conspicuously failed to notify WikiProject Conservatism, I can only assume it was because you were worried that if you did, it might entice editors to come along who disagreed with your POV. But I'm sure you wouldn't intentionally create a biased RFC process, so I'll just patiently await your answer as to why you didn't notify all of the relevant page's WikiProjects. Please help us correct the unfortunate assumption that you failed to notify this WikiProject because of bias. Champaign Supernova (talk) 03:18, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry you are having such trouble finding my answer of 31 July above in my "initial statement", following "WP:RFC reminds us...". At the risk of repeating myself, I will copy the answer here for your convenience:

WP:RFC reminds us that WP:CANVASS "prohibits notifying a chosen group of editors who may be biased." WP:VOTESTACKING clearly prohibits selective notification based on who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view.

I hope this helps answer your question. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 06:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• As an aside, should this ANI report be advertised on all the boards where the RfC was advertised? It would be helpful to get the opinion of editors who thought the announcement inappropiate but didn't know where to complain. I'm not going to do it without consensus, because it borders on spamming. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:25, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

  thumb|left|Yes Arthur, that sounds like a great idea!

• - MrX 21:41, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Please note well in considering my good colleague's suggestion above, to further publicize this ANI filing "on all the boards where the RfC was advertised", that no editor not previously involved in the talk page of Americans for Prosperity, none of the "regulars" at any Wiki Project talk page or notice board where this RfC has been publicized, has commented regarding so-called "excessive cross-posting", let alone deleting talk page comments and notice board postings. The only editors raising issues with the publicizing of this RfC are editors on record in the Survey section of the RfC, and also on record on one particular side of the RfC question. Understand clearly this is not an ANI complaint filed by annoyed notice board or Wiki Project participants. The regulars at the notice boards and Wiki Project talk pages managed to assume good faith. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 21:57, 31 July 2015 (UTC) Respectfully request quick close of this ANI filing, by an administrator please, since the target page Americans for Prosperity is under active discretionary sanctions. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 22:01, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see any real evidence of RfC canvassing. It seems clear that when Hugh gets into a disagreement about whether something is or is not WP:SYNTH, for example, he posts an announcement to a noticeboard with a lot of editors who are familiar with that policy. That isn't canvassing. I personally ended up commenting on the RfC in question based upon seeing one of his announcements on a notice board, and my considered opinion is that what Hugh is trying to accomplish violates WP:BLP and WP:NPOV (some commenters agree with me on this and some disagree, which is why we have RfCs), so any alleged canvassing attempts failed in that respect. I do think that more admins should keep an eye on anything related to the Koch brothers and apply discretionary sanctions as needed. I am seeing a lot of attempts to whitewash or blackwash the Koch brothers rather than treating the topic in a neutral and encyclopedic fashion. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:48, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• It's the third time the same RfC has failed to gain consensus. He's not getting the answer that he wants so he keeps trying to roll a bigger ball up a bigger hill. Heck, we even had the pre-RfC RfC for wording since it failed the previous time. Please make it stop. It's a long election season and starting the RfC dogpile on Koch brothers stuff now is just going to cause problems and entrenched positions later. --DHeyward (talk) 00:05, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• Good point. A topic ban for Hugh on Koch-related articles would be too harsh. Perhaps a six-month topic ban on for Hugh on posting new Koch-related RfCs? --Guy Macon (talk) 00:17, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• DHeyward, would you please provide links for the two previous RfCs. I can't seem to find them. Thanks.- MrX 00:35, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• A short or medium term topic ban would be an appropriate solution in this case. HughD has shown "polite hostility" towards editor who don't agree with him while praising those who do. He also has 2 recent bans related to this article. A Koch family and related topics ban would allow him to work on other projects (and he seems to contribute in many cases) while avoiding what is clearly a family he wishes to blackwash. If others feel his proposed changes are worth while they may discuss and make them.Springee (talk) 14:37, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: If Hugh had held the opposite POV, this would have been deemed canvassing and he would have been sanctioned a long time ago. The apparent bias on Wikipedia is absurd. DaltonCastle (talk) 00:19, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
• What HughD is avoiding discussing is the primary complaint. The rules tell editors to avoid [and excessive cross-posting]. 29 posts as of the time of this ANI and he has since done a new round of bumps. Clearly he is unhappy with the results of his RfC and is now using spamming in hopes of getting people who will agree with him rather than accepting that his view, part of a clear blackwashing attempt, didn't get consensus. If over 30 posts isn't excessive what is? Why have the rule?Springee (talk) 12:11, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Springee, thank you for your question. Excessive in this context is indiscriminate and/or disruptive, please see WP:CANVASS. May I please ask again, which notice was in your mind indiscriminate? Can you please provide an example of what you believe to be disruptive publicizing, such as perhaps a notice board administrator or project participant commenting in objection to a notice or deleting a notice? Thank you in advance for your reply to this important question highly relevant to this report. Hugh (talk) 02:46, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment (uninvolved non admin) I see no violation of canvassing and the diffs presented here seem to follow the advice on WP:RFC. The number of them leaves some concern, but original posts and the bumps seem neutral and only point out the RFC is applicable to the place posted. AlbinoFerret 12:53, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• I agree, the number is excessive and that is a violation of the RfC posting guidelines. Given the editors other behaviors including edit warring on this topic and specifically telling others to follow the RfC rules I don't believe he should be given a pass here. I do think that his was also trying to stack votes by publishing his notices selectively (avoiding the Conservative Project page despite the fact that it is listed as a page related to this project). However, I would consider that minor were it not for the obvious excessive postings (something the guidelines clearly state should not be done).Springee (talk) 14:31, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I disagree that it was excessive, and I do not see a violation of the RFC guidelines. They would be a problem if they were not neutral. As pointed out above, not notifying the Conservative Project can be considered within the RFC guidelines as they have, by the projects own admission, a bias. AlbinoFerret 16:00, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

How many is excessive? His notice was neutral but his posting locations were not (though not radically off). The Conservative one should have been notified as the page in question cites it as a related project. Other pages such as Citizens United could only be seen as trying to find a favorable audience when his original postings failed to get the support he hoped for. Why post there if his intent wasn't vote stacking? I could see over looking the less that 100% clean notifications but adding to the list and reposing in old one when it was clear that things weren't going his way was a clear violation of the spamming part of the canvasing rules. Springee (talk) 17:00, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Please produce a non neutral posting location. So far all I see are wikiprojects, noticeboards and the pump. All neutral locations. In fact he has avoided a non neutral location in the Conservative wikiproject. AlbinoFerret 17:14, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi User:AlbinoFerret, I believe posting the RFC at Talk:Citizens United v. FEC [87] was non-neutral, as that page's connection to AFP is unclear (the page isn't wiki-linked or otherwise mentioned on the AFP page). I found it odd to not notify one of the WikiProjects (Conservatism) while choosing to notify this seemingly arbitrarily selected page (Citizens United V. FEC). I also found it troubling that Hugh continually reverted the RFC notice on that talk page after three different editors, including myself, attempted to remove it as an example of canvassing. Diffs of reverts: [88], [89], [90], [91]. The RFC was certainly in enough places, so the four reverts on a seemingly unrelated page where three editors disputed the edit seems like a case of WP:IDHT. No rationale for choosing to post on the Citizen United page was ever given on that page or the AFP page. Thank you. Champaign Supernova (talk) 18:05, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Champaign Supernova, you wrote "I believe posting the RFC at Talk:Citizens United v. FEC was non-neutral, as that page's connection to AFP is unclear (the page isn't wiki-linked or otherwise mentioned on the AFP page" Citizens United v. FEC was included in the "See also" section of Americans for Prosperity, and as such was specifically authorized for publicizing at WP:RFC as a "closely related article," that is, until it was deleted yesterday. Hugh (talk) 18:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC) How would you characterize the non-neutral bias you claim among the participants at Talk:Citizens United v. FEC that you claim was sought out by posting an RfC notice there? Hugh (talk) 18:45, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Champaign Supernova I'm sorry you do not believe Citizens United v. FEC is closely related to Americans for Prosperity. I did not add Citizens United v. FEC to the "See also" section of Americans for Prosperity.

1. 00:37, 8 May 2015 Citizens United v. FEC added to the "See also" section of Americans for Prosperity by BeenAroundAWhile
2. 19:24, 31 July 2015 Citizens United v. FEC deleted from the "See also" section of Americans for Prosperity by Capitalismojo, a few hours after the filing of this ANI report

Reporting user @Springee: you wrote "The Conservative one should have been notified..." There is no deadline. May I respectfully ask, how long should we extend the comment period of Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds to accommodate full participation from our colleagues at WP:CONSERVATISM? Thank you for your reply. Hugh (talk) 16:33, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Reporting user @Springee: you expressed concern regarding the notice of the RfC to WP:CONSERVATISM. There is no deadline. We will hold off on the close of the RfC until we hear from you. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 03:39, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok, if your basis for posting RFC comments to pages was that the pages were included in the "See Also" section, why didn't you post to Mark Block, which is also in the "See Also" section? If you're picking and choosing which pages to post to from among similar pages (i.e., pages in the "See Also" section), it's going to look like canvassing unless you have a specific, shared rationale for why you chose the pages you did. Champaign Supernova (talk) 18:37, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Respectfully request quick administrative close of this report with no action as the arguments get increasingly desperate. Thank you in advance. Hugh (talk) 18:45, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Champaign Supernova, you wrote "...three different editors, including myself, attempted to remove it..." Thank you for acknowledging your role in deleting perfectly valid RfC notices, but you might have gone on to specify that the other two editors were our good colleague Arthur Rubin and a sympathetic IP. Hugh (talk) 18:35, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Yay, more dripping condescension. Helpful. Champaign Supernova (talk) 18:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

All noticeboards associated with the article should be notified. Conversely why notify ones that are not? Why notify the Citizens United talk page? Why not notify all up front rather than casting a wider net (and again avoiding all boards associated with the article in question) when it was clear that HughD's attempt to blackwash was failing? Regardless, if it were just the location of notices I would say is was only a bit biased. It was the volume that I think is the issue. This is especially true since the volume went up after it was clear he was not getting the consensus he wanted. The canvasing guidelines make it clear that notification should be limited in number.[[92]]Springee (talk) 17:49, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

May I respectfully ask, where does "canvasing guidelines make it clear that notification should be limited in number"? Thank you in advance for your reply. Hugh (talk) 04:46, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

"The Conservative one should have been notified" If you believed WP:CONSERVATISM needed to be notified, why didn't you? Hugh (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Reporting user Springee, you asked "How many is excessive?" Our behavioral guideline WP:CANVASSING at "Spamming and excessive cross-posting" makes no mention of quantity, but does mention "indiscriminate" and "disruptive." If you would like to pursue an answer to your question, kindly take your question to the appropriate policy talk page. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Reporting user Springee, you wrote "the number is excessive and that is a violation of the RfC posting guidelines." Can you please be more specific about the specific policy or guideline you are alleging was violated? WP:RFC says "one or more." If you believe WP:RFC should include a maximum number of notices, please take your concern to the policy talk page. All the venues in which this RfC was publicized are explicitly authorized at WP:RfC, such as notice boards, associated project talk pages, or closely related article talk pages. WP:Discussion notices "Best practices" states that "regular updates may be appropriate" and that "setting a time for the discussion to end" is a best practice. Our behavioural guideline WP:CANVAS defines excessive as "indiscriminate" and "disruptive." Which notice was in your mind indiscriminate? Can you please provide an example of what you believe to be disruptive publicizing, such as perhaps a notice board administrator or project participant objecting to a notice? Thank you in advance. Hugh (talk) 17:07, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

HughD, the policy in question is noted in the opening of this ANI. Springee (talk) 17:13, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

May I please ask again, which notice was in your mind indiscriminate? Can you please provide an example of what you believe to be disruptive publicizing, such as perhaps a notice board administrator or project participant objecting to a notice? Hugh (talk) 17:23, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you may ask. You can also read above. Springee (talk) 17:49, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I took your suggestion and re-read the above. I'm sorry, but I cannot find an instance of indiscriminate notification. All of the venues in which the RfC was notified are specifically authorized by WP:RFC. All of the notifications discriminate in their venues between those venues which are specifically authorized by WP:RFC and those that are not, so they seem discriminate to me. What do you think? Also, I cannot find an example of disruptive notification. I cannot find an example of anyone at any of the venues objecting, through edit summary or comment, I mean of course other than those already on record as opposed back at Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds. Please help. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 04:17, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Question for Administrator: The guidelines clearly state that excessive notifications (in number and/or location) are a type of spamming. How do we judge when the number or locations are spamming? That seems to be the heart of the issue here. HughD's posts were also not neutral in location (though how not neutral is up for debate) but I would like to start with the question of judging excess. Springee (talk) 01:50, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

You don't need an ANI posting or an administrator to answer your question, please ask your question at WT:RFC, WT:CANVASS, or WT:Publicising discussions. I'm sure someone at one of those pages could help you with your question. Thank you in advance. Hugh (talk) 04:40, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The above is an example of the bad faith behavior HughD has shown on the article talk page. The question I asked above is the core of this topic. The number of editors who have said HughD's actions in regard to this RfC means that it was handled in a disruptive way. Springee (talk) 13:33, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

What is the number of editors who have said the notification of this RfC was disruptive? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:53, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Reporting user Springee, a problem with excessive RfC notices sufficiently severe as to warrant an ANI filing, wouldn't you expect at least one noticeboard regular or one WikiProject participant to comment in objection to the RfC notice, or to delete the RfC notice with a terse edit summary? How about anyone that is not on record in the Survey section of the RfC in opposition to the RfC question? Hugh (talk) 04:51, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I agreed with you on the content dispute but I also think this may have been improper canvassing. This concern was raised by a large number of editors in good faith and you have stonewalled all of them. Your inability to listen and accept criticism has proven be highly disruptive. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 07:27, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. Can you please be more specific about the publicity-related policy or guideline which was improperly violated? Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 16:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC) This concern was raised by a very few editors, all on record in the Survey section of the RfC as opposed to Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds, and none from noticeboards or project talk pages. Hugh (talk) 16:17, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Question for Administration As I asked above, several editors felt that the notifications for this RfC were excessive in number and placed to appeal to a more sympathetic audience when it was clear the RfC was not going in HughD's favor. What defines excessive in this case?Springee (talk) 13:33, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Reporting user @Springee:, may I ask, specifically what is the specific location where a "more sympathetic audience" was sought through an RfC notice? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Respectfully request quick close with no action. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Comment "Since that time HughD has published or bumped previous RfC 20 additional times." After spending the entire morning trying to wrap my brain around this ANI - this seems to be the core argument of the original poster. No matter what attempts are being made to poke holes in his original argument (Hugh is INCREDIBLE at this, I will give him that) It needs to be determined whether or not 20+ comments is excessive. WHERE he placed the comments seems irrelevant, per BeenAroundAwhile's comment above. Now, back to the ACTUAL argument at hand. How can we determine what is, and isn't excessive? What has been deemed "excessive" in the past, and why? What hasn't, and why? Either it is excessive, or it isn't, that's it. I also think user:Fyddlestix hit the nail on the head here when he said "as disruptive as HughD's behavior may have been, the NPOV problem that he's been trying to correct is a very obvious and very real one, and he's been up against an awful lot of battleground behavior and IDHT from other editors in this dispute. Not saying that excuses any disruption he may have caused, but I do think that the conduct of parties on both sides of this dispute should be scrutinized carefully by un-involved admins." We have been spinning our wheels for a month now - someone, ANYONE, please help! Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 18:49, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

One month is the default comment period for an RFC, please see WP:RFC. Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds will most likely close Thursday 6 August. There is no deadline and we can extend it if so desired in order to accommodate increased participation from our colleagues at WP:CONSERVATISM and others. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 19:37, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

@Comatmebro: you asked, "How can we determine what is, and isn't excessive?" Thank you for your question. We can determine what is and is not excessive by referencing policy and guideline. WP:RFC says "one or more." All the venues in which Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds were publicized are explicitly authorized at WP:RfC, such as notice boards, associated project talk pages, or closely related article talk pages. WP:Discussion notices "Best practices" states that "regular updates may be appropriate" and that "setting a time for the discussion to end" is a best practice. Our behavioural guideline WP:CANVAS defines excessive as "indiscriminate" and "disruptive." We should expect that a necessary precondition of a problem with excessive RfC notices, sufficiently severe as to warrant an ANI filing, would involve several noticeboard regulars, WikiProject participants, or article talk page contributors, commenting in objection to the RfC notice, or deleting the RfC notice with a terse edit summary, not just those on record in opposition to the RfC question. I hope this helps answer your question. If not, may I respectfully direct you to WT:RFC, WT:CANVASS, or WT:Publicising discussions, where I'm sure someone could clarify further. Thank you again for your question. Hugh (talk)

I seriously doubt that he was looking for an answer as to how much crossposting is excessive from from the person accused of excessive crossposting. Equally likely to be ignored is the person accused of excessive crossposting requesting that the ANI case be closed with no action. Perhaps you have a slight bias when it comes to these particular questions? --Guy Macon (talk) 20:28, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

All I was looking for was a number of posts that could be deemed excessive...10 posts? 15 posts? 100 MILLION POSTS?! But, I do appreciate your clarification, Hugh. Honestly, I am so over arguing with you on all of this - might just have to buy you a beer (or a barnstar) on the 6th to celebrate AN outcome, whatever that outcome may be :). Cheers Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 21:41, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Does look like an attempt to stack votes, but a formal admin warning should be sufficient. The choice to post to Citizens United but not to Conservatism makes it look like an attempt to stack votes. But it's not an over-the-top violation; unless HughD has been admin warned or sanctioned for this before [I mean administratively, not just by opponents in the discussion], anything more than a formal warning would be overkill. MissPiggysBoyfriend (talk) 05:52, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you. I would be fine with a formal warning. Springee (talk) 11:13, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@MissPiggysBoyfriend: There was no attempt at votestacking. WP:RFC specifically authorizes notification to the talk pages of closely related articles, and Citizens United v. FEC was added to the "See also" section of Americans for Prosperity months ago by another editor and was ther until it was deleted after this ANI filing. Meanwhile WP:CANVASS specifically "prohibits notifying a chosen group of editors who may be biased" and WP:VOTESTACKING specifically prohibits selective notification based on who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view. The idea of notifying WikiProject WP:CONSERVATISM was discussed at article talk 27 July 2015. The reporting user Template:U:Springee participated in the decision not to notify WikiProject WP:CONSERVATISM. Hugh (talk) 21:57, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Update: Topic ban instituted. Suggest closing this ANI

Here is the text of the topic ban just implemented by admin Ricky81682:

HughD, upon reviewing the second ANI discussion, the first ANI discussion, Talk:Americans for Prosperity and the now arguments over the closing attempts at the RFC, I am now imposing a two-week topic ban against you on anything related to Americans for Prosperity. This including any noticeboard discussions about the RFC, any further debates about the closing, whatever. Take two weeks off in full from this issue. These two weeks, which will have zero overall affect in the campaign season long-term, will give you a rest from the daily routine of that page and hopefully everything can be better evaluated with a little space. I'd normally just block you and throw away the key as a way to calm the situation but instead I'm giving you a lot of rope (Fred Koch and whatever else are not included) as I'm presuming that you have enough sense not to try to argue the same things in other ways and you can conduct yourself on other articles without the same attitude and arguments. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Since HughD is topic-banned from this issue for two weeks, and therefore the ANI complaint is currently resolved, I suggest closing this ANI. Softlavender (talk) 11:54, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Vandal-like disruption, aspersions and PAs at WP:AVDUCK

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Background: WP:Advocacy ducks is a relatively new essay, currently rated low impact. Unfortunately, what recently transpired was off the charts, WP:POINTY. A few editors are now attempting to make a mockery of the essay in a very disruptive, vandal-like fashion which was actually tried once before in the recent past by Quack Guru as evidenced below. The same editors adamantly opposed the essay from day one and tried to prevent it from going into mainspace. Their 3rd attempt failed but they have not dropped the stick. The most disruptive editors of recent events are:

• User:I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc
• User:AndyTheGrump
• User_talk:QuackGuru

I've grown weary of the BATTLEGROUND behavior.

The essay was created as a guide to help new editors respond properly to real (or perceived) disruptive editing by advocacy zealots. The suggested responses could actually apply to most disruptive situations. Much to my dismay, a small group of editors have misconstrued the essay and cannot/will not be convinced otherwise. They began the disruption after I initiated the current RfC because of ATG's reverts of my work. They have incorrectly interpreted the proposed statement and the essay itself as an attack on project teams which couldn't be further from the truth.

Disruption by I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc aka User:I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc/Previous_Account_Names

• Categorized a serious essay as “humor” He has been reverting and adding content in vandal-like fashion attempting to change a serious essay.
• Added pure nonsense mocking the essay
• Reverted with edit summary - “I LIKE IT” in a display of WP:OWN adding a link to ATG's user space mockery.
• More gibberish he added about burning witches to the stake he added to an image caption ^{added 17:52, 1 August 2015 (UTC)}
• I reverted the gibberish and an unknown IP quickly reverted me - Hmmm Sock activity, perhaps? Atsme^📞📧 18:07, 1 August 2015 (UTC) Perhaps this is more sock activity replacing the gibberish after I reverted for vandalism [93] ^{18:24, 1 August 2015 (UTC)}

Disruption by AndyTheGrump

• ATG mocked the essay in his user space and linked to it on the essay's TP
• Challenge to another editor - more battleground behavior
• Reverted my edit with unwarranted PA edit summary “you don’t get to use essays as a soapbox for your personal grudges”
• Casting aspersions I believe it's the result of his own misapprehension of the essay and the statement I added that he kept reverting.

• ATG continues to challenge segments of the essay, and insists there is zero evidence that confirms 'project advocacy' (his terminology) exists anywhere but in my imagination. Of course, that isn't true and I've explained it to him numerous times, and even quoted Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Guide#Advice_pages, which confirms it as follows: However, in a few cases, projects have wrongly used these pages as a means of asserting ownership over articles within their scope... ^{added 15:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)}

• The following PA which he just posted in this ANI is enough to warrant an iBan and page Ban at AVDUCK to prevent him from further interaction with me and the essay he hates so much: [94] He said to me: "You are beneath contempt, and the sooner Wikipedia gets rid of you the better." Something has to be done to stop this behavior. Atsme^📞📧 07:16, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Disruption by QuackGuru

• Quack Guru added ATG's mockery in the body of the essay. ATG reverted it.
• April 4, 2015 - PA against editors who supported the earliest version of the essay. QG opposed earliest version in an MfD stating, Delete and sprinkle extra salt. Trout and/or block editors for supporting nonsense. ]
• April 5, 2015 - More unwarranted PAs against other editors
• April 13, 2015 - After my essay was deleted, he rewrote his own to suit his POV - Wikipedia:Advocacyquacks - It was speedy deleted but not without resistence

Such behavior is disruptive, unwarranted, hurtful and certainly not helpful to the project. I respectfully request that an administrator review the behavior and take remedial action. Atsme^📞📧 04:24, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Seriously User:Atsme this is not needed at ANI. I agree some sticks need to be dropped. The Wikipedia:Advocacy ducks essay started out really bad. It is now somewhat better. User:AndyTheGrump does write a good story though :-) We are here to write a high quality encyclopedia based on high quality sources Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:01, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Sticks do need to be dropped, and this is exactly the place for it since it isn't happening organically. (I'm unsure what high quality sources have to do with this thread or the essay.) petrarchan47คุก 05:20, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• WP:Advocacy ducks should be userfied as it is a misguided essay based on the idea that certain editors should be dismissed as "advocacy ducks"—anyone wanting WP:FRINGE to be followed is an advocate and is biased. Furthermore, if several editors disagree with you it's because they are part of a biased project (see the talk page RfC). Johnuniq (talk) 06:35, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

That is a rehash of the failed deletion discussion, it was closed keep. Sadly those opposed continue to beat a dead horse. AlbinoFerret 12:03, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I definitely would not say that I own the essay. I would say, however, with actions like this ANI report and the heavy-handedness with which she is trying to impose her views on the talkpage, that Atsme seems to think she owns it. If anyone doesn't like my edits, please feel free to revert them. I'm just trying to improve things. If I fail, well, that's life. jps (talk) 12:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I think your editing patterns at the essay define you quite well. You have consistently disrupted my editing beginning with your opposing views at Griffin which resulted in you proposing an RfD which also didn't fly. Atsme^📞📧 15:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, would you care to explain why, having written that "If you have an opposing opinion to this essay, WP guidelines suggest that you create your own essay expressing your opposing view, and we can link to it", [95] you are now complaining that I did just that? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:08, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Certainly - [96]. Atsme^📞📧 17:58, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Generally speaking, reading something before posting a link to it is advisable. You have posted no evidence whatsoever that I am trying "to prove a point" (what point?) or that I am trying to "game the system" (How? And to what purpose?). Instead, my essay is doing exactly what a user-space essay is supposed to do. Express a personal opinion on the way Wikipedia operates. And providing useful advice. Advice on the inadvisability of tilting at windmills, and the advisability of actually providing substantive evidence when claiming evidence of wrongdoing. Advice you should follow... AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Well of course - your essay is perfect and the essay I created is garbage - the world according to AndyTheGrump. Generally speaking, it's actually good to maintain confidence in one's own ability as long as it's within reason. Atsme^📞📧 19:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

When I want advice on whether something is 'within reason', I'll ask someone who doesn't ask for Monty Python references to be oversighted. [97] AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:47, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Note - it has been pointed out to me that the apparent call for 'oversight' I link above might have been a typo, and 'checkuser' intended. If so, I'll withdraw the above remark. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:53, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Administrator attention please?

The named editors are not only causing disruption, they have now assumed WP:OWN of the essay and are removing images and attempting to change the entire perspective of the essay against what WP:Wikipedia Essays suggest. We have an ongoing RfC, a SPI and this ANI and the BF behavior continues. Please help before this escalates anymore than it has as a result of the above named tendentious editors. I am asking for an a-Ban against the named editors because they have opposed the essay from the very beginning and will not drop the stick. Their reasons for changing are clearly based in their own POV. Atsme^📞📧 15:08, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Editors are attempting to change and improve the essay, true, but they're allowed to do that and there's nothing to indicate that they're doing it in bad faith. Opposing the essay as written does not mean that they're acting in bad faith. On the other hand, when you say to an editor Please help further by incorporating your suggestions as you envision them to be placed in the essay. You can start a new section below on the TP,[98] or revert changes with a similar edit summary,[99] you're showing classic signs of WP:OWNership. Ca2james (talk) 16:31, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

What is happening at AVDUCK is nothing short of BATTLEGROUND and you, Ca2james have come here with dirty hands. You are just as responsible for the behavior there as the other 3. In fact, it was you who tried to get the finalized copy of WP:Advocacy ducks deleted when you pretended to be a collaborative editor until you didn't get your way as evidenced here [100]. You initiated an MfD and your attempt failed, [101]. Now you have joined forces to cause disruption at the essay just like you did at Gabor B. Racz, a BLP I created that was promoted to GA. You can try to convince others that you're not on a mission to do me harm but the evidence proves otherwise.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Atsme (talk • contribs) 18:02, August 2, 2015 (UTC)

I nominated the essay for MfD because I wanted to be sure that the community found it acceptable, as I said here. I've dropped the issue since then and haven't sought deletion or major changes to it. Everything I do is an attempt to improve the encyclopaedia; I saw the Racz article at COIN and noticed that it had some major issues which I attempted (and continue to attempt) to fix. As I've said before, I bear no one any ill-will. Ca2james (talk) 16:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• comment - to further evidence the relentless disruption and targeting of my work, please note that the last edit made to Gabor B. Racz by Ca2james was July 15, 2015 [102]. I nominated it for GA today, August 3, 2015, and Ca2james quickly showed up at the article to destabilize it and prevent it from being reviewed, [103]. The hacking away of information began just as quickly, [104]. ^{added 22:12, 3 August 2015 (UTC)}

Atsme please stop casting aspersions. I'm editing in good faith. I've hardly been editing at all over the last few weeks because I've been sick and although I'm feeling better than I was, I still feel like shit. Since the article was still undergoing a GA reassessment, I figured it wasn't worth spending my limited energy to work on it. Since I'm feeling marginally better and the GA reassessment is concluded, I started editing the article again. I honestly didn't see that you'd re-nominated it for a GA; as soon as I did see it, I left that message on the Talk page saying that I didn't think that the article was ready for a GA (and I don't think it's ready now, either). My intention was not to stop the review but to express my concerns. That's it; that's all. Ca2james (talk) 00:30, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I am asking for an iBan regarding the 3 named editors and Ca2james, and an essay ban (aBan) for all 4 of them. I see no other way to prevent them from causing me further harm and disruption of my ability to edit and improve articles on WP. I think my track record in creating/editing/promoting articles to GA and FA speak for me. I just want to edit in peace and as long as I have to contend with this troll-like behavior, I cannot do my work. Atsme^📞📧 18:02, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

'an essay ban...for all of them'?!?!?' What the heck is this supposed to mean? That because Atsme and her (few) supporters don't like my essay, I should be banned from writing any more? This has to be the most utterly ridiculous of Atsme's endless demands that those of us who have had to deal with her have seen so far. We have had to put up with relentless battleground behaviour, endless accusations of policy violations that nobody else can see (i.e. the latest nonsense ai WP:COIN, the failed ArbCom case etc, etc...) and a complete inability to see disagreement as anything but evidence of some ridiculous grand conspiracy against her (does she really think she is that important?), but demanding that we be restrained from even expressing opinions on Wikipedia policy is going too far. I don't of course suppose that the community would for one minute sanction such draconian measures on the basis of the supposed 'evidence' she has presented so far (it should be noted that of the 130 or so people who have read my essay, the only negative comments have come from the three or four or so supporters she has who habitually follow her around), but I would ask that this obnoxious demand that her critics be silenced be taken into consideration when this thread is closed - as further evidence that she is unfit to edit Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:36, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Part of the problem has surfaced - AndyTheGrump has again misconstrued what he has read. My request has nothing to do with his fantasy essay but he's trying to make it appear as though it does. My case evidence proves which editors have created the BATTLEGROUND beginning with Andy's reverts of my attempts to improve/expand the essay, his unwarranted PAs and various other nonsensical comments during the RfC and everything I've mentioned above in my initial filing. The disruption caused by AndyTheGrump, JPS, and Ca2James is out of control. Several IPs have shown up at the essay, one that appears to be a sock which resulted in a SPI [105]. That escalated into retaliation by JPS who filed the following unwarranted BLPN [106] - another example of these same editors refusing to DROPTHESTICK. Now they are trying to flood this ANI with more nonsense so that no admin wants to get involved. They are experts at gaming the system. And to think, the same 4 editors - AndyTheGrump, JPS, QuackGuru, and Ca2James - have created all of this disruption at a low-level essay, not because they care about improving the essay, but because of retaliatory motives and their refusal to respect PAGs and the suggestions set forth in WP:Wikipedia Essays. The big question is WHY? Why are they going through all this trouble over an essay I created and co-authored? It's a sad state of affairs. Atsme^📞📧 20:26, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

What AndyTheGrump said. I believe that I am being targeted by Atsme because I disagree with some of her interpretations and behaviour and because I express my disagreement - even though I do so respectfully. Although I do oppose the essay and did nominate it for MfD, I have accepted that the essay exists and have not sought to change it. It is clear to me that Atsme only wants to work with people that agree with and support her which would be very nice for us all but when there are multiple people working together, there will always be disagreements. It's equally clear to me that it's her antagonistic behaviour when receiving even the most gentle critique, coupled with her not being willing to accept that she's not right about something, that causes disruption. Ca2james (talk) 20:39, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely untrue as evidenced by the following diff: [107] Atsme^📞📧 21:42, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

That comment appears to have been made in relation to the second version of the essay, which was tagged for speedy deletion by me on April 14, the same day as this comment appeared. That second version was speedily-deleted for being substantially the same as the first one that was MfD'd. The current version of the AVDUCKS essay (the third version of this essay) was created on April 18. Ca2james (talk) 16:59, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Adding: speedy deletion of the second essay was endorsed at deletion review. Ca2james (talk) 22:15, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Atsme is yet again being wildly inconsistent. She states that her request for an " essay ban" against me has "nothing to do with his fantasy essay but he's trying to make it appear as though it does". Yet she started this thread with an assertion that I had "mocked the essay in his user space and linked to it on the essay's TP". She simply can't make up her mind what it is she is objecting to. So far, all that she has demonstrated concerning me is that I have written an essay she doesn't like, and that she objected to my revert of an edit which an RfC has overwhelmingly demonstrated that the community doesn't like either. Having failed to demonstrate that anything I did was remotely against Wikipedia policy, she then goes on to hold me responsible for what other people (including by the look of it one of the regular trolls who lurk around ANI) have been doing to the article. I reverted QuackGuru's addition of my personal essay to the article - and made it entirely clear to him that I wasn't happy with him doing it. I played no part in the addition of 'Monty Python' references to the article etc, and at no time have I suggested that I supported such behaviour. I don't, if only because it distracts from the core issue here - Atsme's ownership of a Wikipedia-space essay, her refusal to accept that legitimate criticism of it is justified, and her relentless battleground behaviour. She seems to be under the misapprehension that somehow the sheer quantity of vague assertions that policy has been breached by me will make up for the fact that she fails (per usual) to actually produce any verifiable evidence. This isn't a new phenomena - it is the way Atsme has operated for some considerable time, and it is the prime reason why I think Wikipedia would be better off without her. She may possibly write good articles sometimes (I haven't looked), and she clearly has talents (e.g. in TV documentary making - I watched one, and was most impressed), but she simply lacks the necessary social skills to work in a cooperative environment where disagreements are inevitable, and the resulting conflicts, escalated by her inevitable claims that she is being conspired against by anyone and everyone, are such a humongous timesink that any potential benefit we get from her presence is by far outweighed by the negatives. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:17, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Not inconsistent - I included (aBan) to define to what I meant. Article bans exist but I wasn't sure if essay bans existed and I meant the single essay not all essays in WP which is why I added (aBan). Further references specify page ban. A big part of your problem is your hair trigger responses and emotional outbursts. You create the drama, not me. Move along, Andy, move along. Atsme^📞📧 22:21, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump's response:

Ok, let's take a look at just what Atsme is accusing me of:

"ATG mocked the essay in his user space and linked to it on the essay's TP" [108]

I had written an essay (User:AndyTheGrump/Advocacy Dragons)), clearly indicated as a personal response to the Advocacy Ducks one. And added a link to it amongst the 29 'Related essays, policies, and guidelines' (including several other personal essays) at the bottom of the 'ducks' essay page. Does it 'mock' the ducks essay? If you want to read it that way, possibly. Though only to the extent that the ducks essay deserves mockery (or at least criticism) for its emphasis on seeking out 'advocacy ducks' as some sort of alien species, rather than recognising that advocacy is a complex issue (I'd argue that every Wikipedia contributor is an 'advocate' of something or another) and that apropriate responses are better centred on actual behaviour (and actual evidence) than on duck-hunting. A perspective which is at the root of much Wikipedia policy, I would have to suggest. And why the hell shouldn't I write an essay on advocacy-hunting if I want to? Wikipedia contributors are perfectly entitled to express their personal opinions regarding the way Wikipedia is run. Atsme has written a controversial essay, and added it to Wikipedia space. And she has the nerve to object to me expressing an opinion of it, in my own personal space? A double standard almost beyond belief.

As for the essay itself, I invite everyone to read it, and decide for themselves whether it is legitimate. I note that the page view statistics show that at least 99 people have viewed it so far, and that the only people who have criticised it have been Atsme and a couple of her supporters from the RfC. Supporters who seem to think that they are beyond criticism, and that they have the right to stifle dissent.

"Challenge to another editor - more battleground behavior" [109]

Utterly ridiculous. A contributor was basically asserting that edit-warring to remove the link to the essay (which incidentally I'd only ever added once) proved that there was no 'consensus' for it. Did I 'challenge the other editor'. Certainly - because he was asserting that edit-warring was the way to determine consensus. Which needless to say, it isn't...

"Reverted my edit with unwarranted PA edit summary “you don’t get to use essays as a soapbox for your personal grudges” "[110]

Given the nature of the edit, the number of times Atsme has defended the content by claiming (without ever producing the slightest bit of evidence, despite being asked to on multiple occasions) that Wikiprojects have been engaging in advocacy, I have to suggest that all the evidence points to the fact that my summary was correct. And note that this edit is over a month old. And that I told her that if she had a problem with it, she should take it to ANI (se this discussion at User Talk:BDD [111]) She didn't. Instead, she chose to start an RfC on the disputed material. Which unsurprisingly shows that the clear consensus is that unwarranted attacks on the integrity of Wikiprojects don't belong in an essay in Wikipedia space. Only now, when it becomes clear that I was right to remove the material, does she decide to raise it here. And as for the edit summary itself, Atsme had stated only a few days previously that she intended to edit the 'ducks' essay [112] - in a manner clearly intended to attack the integrity of Wikiproject medicine.

"Casting aspersions I believe it's the result of his own misapprehension of the essay and the statement I added that he kept reverting." [113]

As is self evident, I am doing nothing of the sort - Atsme wrote "Some editors who happen to be members of certain project teams are disruptive and they do tag-team and exhibit WP:OWN..." ...and yet again failed to come up with even a scintilla of evidence. Aspersions were certainly being cast. By Atsme. Yet again.

In summary, nothing Atsme has linked is evidence for anything but her own relentless battleground behaviour, her own inability to take dissent as anything except evidence as a conspiracy against her, and her complete lack of self-awareness when she accuses others of behaviour she exhibits herself by the bucketful. She is a liability to the project, and we would be a lot better off without her. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Addendum: From a post by Atsme, on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Advocacy ducks:

"If you have an opposing opinion to this essay, WP guidelines suggest that you create your own essay expressing your opposing view, and we can link to it." [114]

AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:32, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I have been noticing the goings-on over this essay, and would say AtG's is an on-point analysis. Meanwhile, I am having my own time wasted by Atsme with a vexatious complaint at WP:COI/N#Potential_COI_re:_Alex_Brown, and this follows on the heels of a declined case at Arbcom, again over COI. The Arbs suggested there were issues here to be discussed at AN/I and so it may be time for the community now to examine this editor's behaviour more widely and decide whether its patience with Atsme has been exhausted and if some kind of WP:BAN should be considered. Alexbrn (talk) 13:46, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Alex, your presence here is retaliatory which is understandable but it conflicts with WP:AGF. Proposing bans, blocks, etc. simply because I filed this ANI is pretty sad. Perhaps you should be included in the above list considering your hands aren't clean based on the disruptive behavior you displayed at Gabor B. Racz along with the many unwarranted allegations and aspersions you've made against me in recent months, July 4, 2015 - edit summary: (serious problems with sourcing (/advocacy?), July 7, 2015, edit summary: "the lurking suspicion of a COI taint": and your unwarranted removal of copy-edit tags I added to a poorly written BLP. Your presence (and that of a few other editors here who won't drop the stick) is seemingly ubiquitous where I'm concerned. I just want the PAs, aspersions and disruptive behavior to stop so I can get back to creating and editing articles and improving the encyclopedia. The amount of attention that was given to a low-impact essay I created and co-authored coupled with the gang-like disruption from editors who opposed the essay from the beginning (and who have repeatedly refused to drop the stick which Doc James even noted) needs administrator attention. Please don't try to make this a kangaroo court because the focus needs to remain on the obnoxious behavior exhibited by the above named editors. You know full well it was disruptive and unambiguously pointy and carries the strong scent of tag-teaming and own. Atsme^📞📧 17:10, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I would say that AndyTheGrump is 'casting aspersions' on this editor. His editing is disruptive, unfriendly and not cooperative. The well meaning and well done essay does not deserve such intense attack personalized against the writer of the essay. Earl King Jr. (talk) 14:50, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary, I find AndyTheGrump not to have been disruptive whatsoever. He has accurately and forthrightly laid out the facts. I see no personalized "attacks" at all, just a calm recitation of what has been happening. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:59, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

EKJ, would you care to expand on that in a manner that suggested that you were actually addressing the issue being discussed here, rather than using this thread as a platform for your own issues with me? AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:01, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Earl King Junior is the one entirely uninvolved voice in this thread, and his comment is 100% accurate. petrarchan47คุก 19:32, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Uninvolved with the AVDuck essay, yes, but has had arguments with AndyTheGrump over at Talk:Zeitgeist (film series) so I wouldn't characterize EKJ as uninvolved when it comes to comments on ATG. Ca2james (talk) 16:13, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

If we were to dismiss the comments of every editor who has ever argued with AndyTheGrump, we wouldn't have any opposing views. Also, you and I haven't had model collaborations, and considering the fact you actually tried to get the essay deleted from namespace, your derogatory comments about me are biased and weighted. Atsme^📞📧 04:01, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Granted alternative essays on Advocacy may be something that can be linked within an essay. But an essay that seeks to focus, not on advocacy, but on other editors work is not appropriate. When asked if diffs were really needed to be provided of his continued opposition to the essay [115] His answe was "Nope" and then a suggestion that after his reading he formed an opinion.[116] This is a clear case of failure to drop the stick as the essay has been under constant battleground mentality of those opposed to its existence, even after a deletion discussion was closed keep.[117]. The continued battleground against the essay, which doesnt have to be in complete agreement by all editors, borders on WP:POINT and WP:NOTHERE behaviour if not already crossing the line. AlbinoFerret 16:17, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

"a suggestion that after his reading he formed an opinion" as evidence of battleground behaviour? Do you even have the faintest clue of just how ridiculous that is? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:26, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

The continued opposition to the essay is battleground behaviour, even after the deletion discussion ended as keep. Once read you have continued, not to make it better, but to oppose it. Its time to drop the stick and focus in on building WP. AlbinoFerret 16:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I am entitled to my opinion of the essay. I am entitled to express my opinion of the essay. And that will remain true no matter how many times you repeat your vacuous clichés. Wikipedia is open to contributors with a diversity of opinion, and is not under the control of bureaucratic Commissioners for the Prevention of Literature. [118] If you want a website where doubleplus-ungood thoughts are suppressed, go find a Maoist cult or something. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:11, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Doubtful whether Andy wants to be a Wikipedia editor in the longer term and in the short time throws around nasty things at other editors. Generally Wikipedia editors do not go to such extreme putdowns of fellow editors. I would call it out of control bad will. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:24, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Doubtful whether Andy wants to be a Wikipedia editor in the longer term?

Earl King Jr.

First edit: March 2012

Total edits: 2,997

Number of edits per day: 2.4

AndyTheGrump

First edit: August 2010

Total edits: 39,043

Number of edits per day: 21.6

--Guy Macon (talk) 04:21, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Good point. And Earl King Jr.'s edits focus almost entirely on a single topic. Following are the pages where Earl King Jr. has over 100 edits:

• 103 The Venus Project
• 114 Talk:Jacque Fresco
• 114 Zeitgeist (film series)
• 115 Talk:Zeitgeist: The Movie
• 169 Zeitgeist: The Movie
• 185 Talk:Zeitgeist (film series)
• 263 Jacque Fresco
• 265 The Zeitgeist Movement
• 269 Talk:The Zeitgeist Movement

That covers more than half the edits, and many of the others are on the same topic. Johnuniq (talk) 05:08, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Boomerang suggestion

Might I be so bold as to suggest that perhaps Atsme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) be topic banned from vexatious litigation at ANI, COIN, and other noticeboards? If she ends up having problems, she could contact administrators privately rather than drawing everybody into a circus of drama. As for her WP:OWN problems, well, we can see if being deprived of external squawk boxes might not allow her to settle down a bit.

jps (talk) 15:39, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Classic - I think the lady doth protest too much. An editor once summarized the Boomerang OP quite well in the following statement, [119] It should serve as a lesson to all that while some may make promises to change their behavior, they rarely ever do. Atsme^📞📧 15:58, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, the lady doth protest too much. Which is why it has been suggested that banning the lady from protesting might be a good idea. I would support a topic ban from ANI, COIN etc as a minimum response, though I'm not sure that it wouldn't merely result in moving the problem elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:05, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I do think a boomerang is in order. However, I don't think restricting her from the dramah boards will help as she already has been contacting admins privately on their Talk pages.[120][121][122]

The problem as I see it isn't that she takes things to the dramah boards but that she engages in aggressive, bullying, tit-for-tat behaviours when editors disagree with her or call her out on her behaviour. From my statement at her declined RFAR case request against Jytdog, "This is par for the course for Atsme; instead of dealing with criticism, she engages in WP:POINTy edits[123] and posts long rants (for lack of a better word) about how she is right and accuses those who disagree with her of being unwarranted,[124][125] ill-will,[126] harassment,[127] being biased,[128][129] or, as in this case, being part of a cabal.[130][131] Also of concern is her misunderstanding of edit-warring,[132] MEDRS,[133] NPOV,[134] and POV-pushing." Her bullying, antagonistic behaviour is not new. She avoided a block in 2014[135] by finding a mentor[136] but her behaviour remains unchanged since that time.

She is displaying strong WP:OWNership behaviours on this essay and addedin the text under discussion in the RfC in a revert of another editor's changes.[137] I removed the text[138] and left a note on the essay Talk page;[139] instead of responding there, Atsme inserted an extraneous character into the essay to leave an edit summary arguing with the one I left[140] and then she left the extraneous character in there. She has also displayed ownership of Gabor B. Racz where she continually reverted changes to remove promotional puffery, COPYVIOs, and inaccuracies.[141][142][143][144]

With all of these long-term issues, I think a block or ban to prevent further disruption to the encylopaedia is necessary. Ca2james (talk) 16:50, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Classic play when someone is brought to AN/I. Try and toss a boomerang. Then others can pile on edits from other articles where there is a content disagreement with those who disagree with the person who is the boomerang target. Perhaps this tactic needs an essay. AlbinoFerret 17:01, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Seeing things in terms of "plays" tells of a problematic mindset on your part and fails to assume good faith. Sometimes problems are real, and Wikipedians do their best to express what they see happening. Alexbrn (talk) 17:12, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary, if you watch this board long enough and read enough of the sections you will see this done quite often. AlbinoFerret 18:09, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I could not agree more with AlbinoFerret. I have followed Atsme's articles and disputes for several months now. I have been absolutely staggered at her continued politeness and strength of motivation to focus on the content rather than editors, and to remain civil. This is in total contrast to some of her opposers above where it seems they can make uncivil remarks about edits or editors with apparent impunity. A boomerang is definitely not appropriate here.DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:09, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Indeed you have been following, for example egging Atsme on by tittering together over the "Pricks"[145] on Wikipedia (or is that the Borg?) who you fancy yourself to be in battle against. Alexbrn (talk) 17:19, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on the edit, not the editor.DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:23, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Point of order. I did not post on ANI. If you think Atsme is being harassed by my response to her thread about me, then you would do well to advise her to voluntarily topic ban herself from venues where this kind of outcome may occur. jps (talk) 17:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

@jps My ES was not directed at you.DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:51, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

AN/I is for examining editor behaviour, and that includes mine - and yours, DrChrissy. Alexbrn (talk) 17:27, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Support a boomerang. I believe Atsme is fundamentally well-meaning, but s/he seems unable to let anything go on Wikipedia, ever, and seems prepared to poke and pester her opponents ad nauseam. That is a problem. Editors with such an approach have been known to ultimately be indefinitely banned from the project. (I'm thinking of a particular user, but I don't want to name them here.) I support a sanction, either a ban from Wikipedia space or a ban from vexatious litigation (which would fit the case well, but is probably impossibly vague, and would be a difficult judgment call every time) or, ultimately, a block of some length — one month, three months? This after reading through this ANI which Atsme opened 1 August, this arbitration case which Atsme opened 12 July (declined by arbcom 15 July), and this retaliatory COI noticeboard report against Alex Brown (compare the edit summary here) which Atsme opened 29 July. Look at the whole pattern: she's abusing the noticeboards and brandishing an apparently never-to-be-dropped stick. Bishonen | talk 17:34, 1 August 2015 (UTC).

Addendum: Added after seeing this utterly irrelevant oh-yeah-what-about-you well-poisoning retort to jps just above, posted by Atsme while I was fiddling with my own post (I'm slow). It made me cross out the bit about believing her to be well-meaning. I've changed my mind. Also considering this 2014 ANI: this time she has really run out of excuses for acting like a newbie. Support a three-month block. Bishonen | talk 17:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC).

• comment to Bishonen - what you said about me is not true. Why would I retaliate against Alex? What did he do to me? Why would you say such a thing? He wasn't even involved in my Coinoscopy. You need to retract your statements. You completely ignored my original post which provides solid evidence for the real disruption that occurred over a low-impact essay, for Pete's sake. How can you not see it? You ignored the profanity by AndyTheGrump, you ignored the fact that Doc James even said they need to drop the stick, and you focused on me while failing to tell the truth. I think your participation here is disingenuous based on your antagonistic posting of the moon template - (Casein geology barn star) - on the TP of JzG, April 12, 2015, commending him for his off-the-wall comments to me during a discussion on the TP of SlimVirgin where the essay actually originated, April 9, 2015. He responded to you with the following, April 12, 2015. It's pretty sad when admins start antagonizing editors they disagree with and then use an open discussion on the TP of another admin as justification for their foolishness. There is also your comment to me as a TP stalker when I posted to Alison for help, [146]. I never accused anyone of anything rather I asked for help, but it appears you have been stalking me for a while now, and I find that very disconcerting especially considering you've been untruthful. Atsme^📞📧 02:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

If Alexbrn wasn't involved in your 'Coinoscopy', why did you name him as an involved person in your failed ArbCom case? [147] AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• "She seems unable to let anything go on Wikipedia, ever" - Wow. That's a pretty big statement. I checked out your claim and immediately found it false, using the Kombucha page as an example. In nearly every source about Kombucha research, it is noted that very few human trials exist. In the Lede, the Project Medicine regulars prefer to leave this fact out, and say simply that no evidence exists to support health claims. This leaves the reader with the idea that perhaps many trials have been conducted and failed to find evidence. The team (Alexbrn, Jdog) reverted my change that added this context. Ca2James reverted Atsme twice when she made the same edit. Atsme apparently did let it go, her only edit there today was to fix the prose. Atsme has been trying to help stick to the science and help deal with the intense bias and misrepresentation of evidence at Kombucha. IMO, Atsme is being trolled. For instance, I have been editing here for years, and only ran into AndytheGrump at Jimbo's page... until the essay happened. Now, any page I edit where Atmse is active, there's Andy. My topic areas haven't changed, and I don't see him at any articles that I edit if Atsme isn't there. At Kombucha, I haven't seen any evidence that he is there to help build the article, even though I have asked for help. But he is always there to bash on Atsme. That's how it appears to me, anyway. petrarchan47คุก 20:03, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Very interesting. So AndyTheGrump followed you to Kombucha? Are you sure about that? In my recollection it's more the other way round: Andy has been a long-time steward of that article, and you (and, coincidentally, Atsme) showed up at the same time fairly recently pushing the same line. What brought you to the Kombucha article, really? Alexbrn (talk) 20:11, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Even more interesting is that I didn't claim he followed me. I'm just reporting a strange phenomenon and I highly doubt it has nothing to do with Atsme. It is time to drop the stick, by force or otherwise. petrarchan47คุก 20:18, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

What 'strange phenomenon' are you referring to then? That you and Atsme have a habit of turning up at the same articles, pushing the same fringe POV, and that people object to it? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:20, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

You wrote: "Atsme is being trolled. ... Now, any page I edit where Atmse is active, there's Andy." I'll leave it to other readers to decide what you meant by that. You also put "My topic areas haven't changed" - but your topic area did suddenly change to include Kombucha, at the same time as Atsme's did. Just another "strange phenomenon" ... or ... what? Alexbrn (talk) 20:27, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I have edited health articles for years, and trying to fix your "Kombucha kills people" falls right in line with my previous work. I got involved with the Cannabis articles for precisely the same reason, someone was claiming that Cannabis killed people in WP's voice, just as you were doing at Kombucha. petrarchan47คุก 20:39, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

What the fuck has an article I've never edited [148] got to do with this? As for Kombucha, I am of the opinion that including reliably sourced information in an encyclopaedia is generally a good idea. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:48, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Nothing. I was replying to Alex. petrarchan47คุก 02:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Andy, your use of profanity is uncivil. Please have some consideration for the possibility there may be children reading your comments. Atsme^📞📧 23:02, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Possibly - though I suspect that unsupervised children will find more interesting things to look at on Wikipedia than ANI threads. I'll refrain from making suggestions beyond pointing out that we have an article on the word, per WP:BEANS, but if you really think that 'think of the children' is a valid reason to complain about things on Wikipedia, you are probably raising the issue in the wrong place entirely... AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:09, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

My first edit to the Kombucha article was in November 2013. Atsme's was in June this year, as was Petrarchan47's. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:15, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that I now run into you on various pages, but never on pages where Atsme is absent. You know as well as I that we never ran into each other before. petrarchan47คุก 20:22, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

There is a user interaction tool somewhere, isn't there? From memory, I can only think of a few articles where I've interacted with Atsme at all - at the Kombucha article, at the controversial No-go area article (which I had again edited long before Atsme's involvement), and in relation to the 'ducks' essay. If there has been other significant interaction, I can't think of it offhand, though I'm prepared to accept evidence to the contrary - I have a lousy memory for names. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:28, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

No Boomerang Atsme brings evidence of behavioral problems that need to be addressed by uninvolved editors/Admins. petrarchan47คุก 20:22, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

No Ban for presenting the case at ANI. There is sufficient evidence that there is repeated bad behaviour in this case, and that means that presenting this case at ANI is not abuse.--Müdigkeit (talk) 20:32, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• comment I would support a topic ban but only in principle. Atsme does have actions that do betray her and it's time for her battleground behavior to stop. This however is a case with alot of evidence to review and it does go back a few months. I don't think and I have seen that Atsme is not the sole problematic editor in this "Feud". I don't see any problem above with Andythegrump however. While I would support a topic ban of Atsme, it would be better to allow her to bring further evidence so that a few others might take part in a ban with her.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:32, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support boomerang to stop this bloody waste of time: Keep her away from ANI, COIN, and other noticeboards. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:45, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Wow. Do you you really care that little about the project that you would take such a cavalier attitude to the potential ban of one of the most productive, polite and insightful editors on here. That is shameful. If you don't want to waste our time, then vote !no (that would save us all time), or give your reasons for the !yes posting.DrChrissy ^(talk) 22:01, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. This can be quickly resolved with a topic ban. It is becoming a waste of time trying to improve the essay. QuackGuru (talk) 22:03, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• comment - I have asked for an iBan and aBan against you, AndyTheGrump, JPS, and Ca2James as it was your disruption at a low-level essay where all 4 of you refuse to WP:DROPTHESTICK that caused the disruption that brought me here. Your failure to let it go now further demonstrates the seriousness of your behavioral issues. I also hope the block records of the first 3 editors will be considered because it demonstrates a pattern of repeated BF behavior. The gang-like, troll-like activity that I evidenced in my initial post is unmistakable. Atsme^📞📧 20:49, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Oppose boomerang Atsme has eloquently raised legitimate concerns about the disruptive behaviour of some editors in an essay. Here at AN/I, she has raised concerns about the way she is being dealt with regarding the essay. She should in no way be punished for bringing this behaviour to AN/IDrChrissy ^(talk) 22:20, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Support boomerang I wrote above my reasons for supporting a boomerang but thought I'd formalise my !vote. I'd prefer to see a three-month block because her behaviour extends everywhere she edits and is not limited to the dramah boards. That said, keeping her away from initiating new reports at the dramah boards will help. Ca2james (talk) 23:35, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Atsme has done nothing to warrant a boomerang. She has simply came here seeing community consensus for what she sees as a disruptive problem. AlbinoFerret 00:06, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Looks like wiki-hounding from Andy. Bringing up behavioral issues concerning editors is legit. No brazen swearing should even be allowed here. Its not funny or clarifying, just bad behavior. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:00, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support boomerang, although Cwobeel does not express his reasons very elegantly, I share his sentiments. I have just wasted several hours following the various dramas leading to this ANI. All the hallmarks of 'conspiracy ducks' are displayed by the stronger defenders of this (fundamentally misconceived, from its title to its content IMO) essay. Ownership, PAs, forum shopping, demanding good faith while displaying none.Support a three-month block.Pincrete (talk) 18:43, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support boomerang. A meritless complaint from Atmse looks to me to have harrassment of AtG as its purpose. BMK (talk) 21:36, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per Müdigkeit and petrarchan47. There is clearly ongoing battleground. Instead of singling out Atsme it would seem much better for neutral uninvolved admins to keep an eye on situation. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 22:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose boomerang. WP:AVDUCK, the article created by Atsme, resonates with my own experience of editing on WP. If some editors have tried to make edits to this article so as to change its general tone and intent, which is one of Atsme's allegations, then this is clearly disruptive behavior. As Atsme has rightly said those editors who have a problem with this article should write a separate article(s) expressing their disagreement with the article written by Atsme. Soham321 (talk) 00:25, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

You appear not to have read Atsm's original complaint. She has repeatedly called for sanctions against me because I wrote an essay which disagreed with hers. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:32, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't want to get into Atsme's issues with respect to a specific person. I might easily misinterpret her. But i do not believe she had a problem with you writing an essay disagreeing with hers as per the last few lines in this diff: diff1. Soham321 (talk) 01:00, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

REgardless of what you think, the demonstrable fact remains that in starting this thread, Atsme made it entirely clear that she objected to me writing an essay in response to hers - she started this ANI thread with an explicit statement to that effect. Which makes your rationale for opposing sanctions questionable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:07, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Sadly for you, saying it a bunch of times doesnt make it true. I have read what Atsme said. She said she didnt mind an opposing essay on the topic of Advocacy. But your essay isnt on the topic of advocacy, but on the editor who wrote an essay on advocacy. Its a carefully worded piece that to anyone who has been involved with the WP:AVDUCK essay can clearly see is directed at Atsme. The list of supporters of this essay of yours comprises those who have been against the essay and tried to get it deleted. AlbinoFerret 01:44, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

My essay isn't on advocacy, it is on the inadvisability of engaging in the sort of behaviour encouraged by the 'ducks' essay. An essay I am perfectly entitled to write. Nobody but Atsme's small band of loyal followers seems to have objected to it, or suggested that is a personal attack of any kind - and it has been read by around a hundred and fifty people. [149] Still, if you don't think it is justified, there is nothing to prevent you using the WP:MFD process to see what the community thinks of it. Until then, it is going to remain in my user space, as my personal opinion, and it is going to remain linked in the 'ducks' essay, as WP:WPESSAY makes clear is appropriate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:59, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Nice strawman. No one has said you cant write something and keep it in your user pages. But the reason your here is the idea that your entitled to link to it in another essay. Your not, and the WP:ONUS is on you to prove you have consensus to add it. It gets removed, and one after another, editors opposed to the WP:AVDUCK essay replace the link. Its time to drop the stick. Keep your essay in users space for all I care, because large lattitude is given to pages in userspace. But leave it off of AVDUCK and stop with the disruptive behaviour. As I see it your WP:NOTHERE. AlbinoFerret 02:27, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Nope. Per WP:WPESSAY, my essay will remain linked in the 'duck' essay until such time as the community decides that it shouldn't be. You have no right whatsoever to exclude links to opinions just because you don't like them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:51, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Thats right, its an opinion. Your opinion, and the ONUS is on you to prove it belongs. By the way I just like it isnt a good argument for inclusion. Attack pieces on the other had done seem to make the cut. AlbinoFerret 03:02, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The onus is actually back on you now. You saying the phrase "The onus is on you" doesn't actually put the onus on someone else. ATG has offered that his essay is a direct response to AVDUCK and therefore it should be linked as is common practice (this is my personal interpretation ATG but if you feel that it some how misrepresents you please do correct me). Your response really amounts to WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Unsurprisingly it doesn't actually matter what you do not like. Consensus after all not a popularity contest. Do you have an actual substantive reason not to include a link to this essay? The onus is on you. Put up or drop the stick.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:42, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from the boards for 6 months Atsme says she wants to work on content. What she has brought to ANI and a number of editors talk pages is mostly unfounded accusations. This topic ban will help her work on content. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:19, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

As you are probably aware (having been present at the discussion), Atsme was advised by the ArbCom members to bring Jytdog to AN/I for doxxing her. This suggestion is untenable at best. petrarchan47คุก 01:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• comment You and Alexbrn were the first two editors who went after the article I created, Gabor B. Racz, a GA that you immediately requested GA reassessment when the COINoscopy ensued. Your collaborative team took it over in a WP:OWN sweep and while I agree better sources were needed, the article did not need to be rewritten - it was a POV issue regarding a BLP and syntax and your POV won. Here you are now defending truly disruptive editors, most of whom are members of your Project Med team. No surprise. You also falsely accused me of copyvio on the Racz article, took a position of WP:HEAR and wouldn't drop the stick. I actually had to contact the author of the piece to prove it was public domain. I suppose your supporters will say, bravo you did the right thing, really? Being on the receiving end of your bias, I can't help but feel you are now wanting to be punitive. I was foolish enough to trust you and ask you for help in resolving the issue because of the obnoxious behavior by the above named editors. You again turned your attention to me while turning a blind eye to the true disruption and bad behavior. There is absolutely no justification for anything you've said or have recommended except extreme bias. Your response is an incredible disappointment - especially after AndyTheGrump's demeaning and unwarranted comment to me below wherein he stated, "You are beneath contempt, and the sooner Wikipedia gets rid of you the better.” You shrugged it off with more aspersions against me. I may not be the perfect editor who can sit quietly while others pound and kick me with the sticks they refuse to drop, and I have certainly responded in defense of myself as any responsible adult with integrity would be expected to do, but you defending disruptive editors while trying to make me look like the sinner goes beyond fair and reasonable. It's more than sad - it's heartbreaking because I once looked up to you despite the prior disappointments. Atsme^📞📧 14:32, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The COPYVIO accusations were based on evidence that COPYVIOs had occurred.[150][151] The article has been delisted as a GA.[152] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ca2james (talk • contribs) 20:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The copyvio accusations were based on a misinterpretation of WP:COPYVIO so I became the target because WP:CIR. Yes, the GA was delisted which is not good testament to your work considering the changes that were made to a once GA that you and the team managed to get delisted despite the original reviewer standing by his initial GA assessment - a reviewer that is no slouch when it comes to recognizing GAs and FAs. What you did was cause harm to the project to push your POV- not helpful. Drawing more attention to it now doesn't exactly shine a good light on you. Curious - your user name and Doc James user name reminds me of a license plates one would see on the James family vehicles, hypothetically speaking of course. You both hail from Canada, both use "James" in your user names, and I was wondering if there is any relationship or is it just coincidence? Atsme^📞📧 20:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Are you actually suggesting that Doc James and I are the same editor with no evidence but that our names both have James in them and we're both from Canada? I ask that you strike this absolutely unfounded and inappropriate accusation. As for Racz, it never should have been a GA because it contained promotional language, copyvios (which you, to this day, deny), and factual inaccuracies. I was working to improve those aspects of the article, which I think does improve the encyclopaedia, but I'm well aware that it's not GA-quality at this point. Ca2james (talk) 22:22, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I never realized sentence comprehension was an issue on WP. I asked if you were related or if it was coincidence, that's all. I already know you're not the same editor because you can actually spell. Atsme^📞📧 23:02, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes I openly admit that I cannot spell. The fact that you do not accept that copyright issues occurred is unfortunate and another reason why a topic ban would be appropriate. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:34, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Wow, Doc. It appears you've forgotten what really happened. You threatened to block me over an alleged copyvio that did not exist and refused to drop the stick.

July 13, 2015 Asked Alexbrn, Ca2james, and Doc James to Drop The Stick,

July 13, 2015 Doc James insists that I'm wrong and threatens to block me even though I was correct that it was not a copyvio.

July 13, 2015 Proof I was correct, it was not a copyvio. No apology - instead the same 3 are here now teamed up trying to get me blocked. Sad. Atsme^📞📧 02:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Following this comment I support Atsme being banned from editing entirely. The copy vios were from more than one source. The copyright release she tried to get after the fact. Also we need the OTRS ticket number to follow up on its veracity. See Talk:Gabor_B._Racz#COPYVIO Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:08, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Doc James, did you see this diff of Atsme, [153]. Making a site ban demand cannot be done on the basis of the copyright violations claim which you are giving since as she has argued the facts were not under copyright in the first place and secondly things like the awards he won, organizations he was affiliated with, etc. cannot actually be reworded. Soham321 (talk) 15:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The information copied was not a factual list of awards. It was word for word copying of text. This is the issue Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:47, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Facts are not under copyright but the presentation of those facts is. Atsme claimed that she used the facts from the CV but investigation showed that the wording she used was the same as another site.[154] The choice of which awards and affiliations to include and the way they're presented can certainly be reworded. For anyone interested in the full discussions, please see here and here. Thanks. Ca2james (talk) 16:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Isn't it obvious what has happened? Both the content in the website and Atsme's edits originate from this individual's CV. Soham321 (talk) 16:10, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

It's a waste of time arguing with them. They won't drop the stick so it's better to let them believe I manipulated some ridiculous conspiracy and magically turned a copyright violation into a nonviolation. If I really could do something like that, you'd think I'd be considered an asset to the project. I even followed Doc's suggestions and provided the proof that the information was public domain but that wasn't enough - he wanted me to admit I was wrong even though it wasn't, as in bow to me humble servant, or maybe it has something to do with the gender gap, I honestly don't know. I even changed the wording to appease him even after he attacked the Racz article during my COINoscopy despite it being a long stable GA. I hope other admins are watching this closely and can see what's really going on here because Doc's actions are clearly retaliatory, punitive and unbecoming an administrator in his position. It's rather shocking that he is now calling for a complete edit ban based on his false allegation of a copyvio. Wow! The entire reason for this ANI has been buried. Welcome to kangaroo court, folks. I guess that's what happens when a "pledge" provides diffs that don't flatter an admin. Atsme^📞📧 17:08, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support boomerang and a long ban from the boards, per Bishonen and others. Thomas.W ^talk 14:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support boomerang, per OP. 173.228.118.114 (talk) 14:46, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Question Are IPs allowed to !vote on such matters?DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:02, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• This isn't a vote, and until such time as there is consensus for a lockdown of this page to only established user accounts, AN/I is required to suffer the little IPs to come to us. Admins will decide whether or not to weight all the points made in this morass. jps (talk) 15:22, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the information.DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:48, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Suggest that AndyTheGrump and Atsme just agree to take an interaction break for a while to cool down, and this whole affair be concluded without further drama. -Darouet (talk) 20:15, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support boomerang with topic ban. Much of the community has tired of Atsme slinging out accusations of personal attacks whenever someone doesn't agree with them on content, so this might help. There is some very nebulous tendentious behavior that by definition is very hard to succinctly address at ANI, but focusing on AVDucks, etc. might be a good starting point. Atsme originally started recruiting editors to the COIDucks essay when they were on the same side of a content dispute, or were in a separate dispute with another editor. This resulted in a selection of people supporting the essays and Atsme's actions there, and many of those same editors are also opposing the boomerang here. History to be aware of for a closer. Others above have described this and WP:OWN issues at the essay where Atsme appears to take changes to the content pretty personally by how often the personal attack comments come out. This ANI posting appears to just be a continuation of that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:43, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• comment Of course you do - it's retaliation for when I exposed your BF edits and aspersions back in March when you were participating in the tag-team activity at G. Edward Griffin, [155]. Sad to think this is what ANI has become - a kangaroo court while the real offenders go free? Every editor who holds a grudge against another editor comes forward and slings mud and BS without one diff? Let's get back to the real issues here - the tendentious editing, foul language, suspected SPI activity, and total disruption of a stable essay by AndyTheDog, AndyTheGrump, JPS, Quack Guru and Ca2james. Atsme^📞📧 00:07, 4 August 2015 (UTC)^{correction 12:33, 4 August 2015 (UTC)}

• support Boomerang not just for Dramah boards, but for fringe topics too. I would support a total (infinite ;) ) ban had it been proposed. Her Britannicas might be impressive, but they don't seem to have helped her improve the project in the time I have known her, ie since she joined the edit crew at Griffin. The most notable case of The Dunning Kruger Effect I've ever seen here, endless disruption, and probably due to WP:CIR @Atsme - Who is Andythedog? -Roxy the dog™ (Talk to the dog who doesn't know when her owner is coming home) 12:07, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• comment I wondered how long it take before the rest of the team showed up to castigate me over their misapprehension at Griffin where the RfC closed in my favor. [February 16, 2015, February 21, 2015, February 18 2015 for starters. I fixed the mistake you pointed out. Atsme^📞📧 12:33, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The full conversation for anyone interested [156]. Nothing was "exposed" there since that's the same lashing out from you that many have become tired of in the community even after many, including myself, have tried to walk you through ways to alleviate the problem. Just various empty allegations again. I guess thanks for demonstrating the point for the proposed ban. The idea that everyone is out to get you has been disruptive at articles and elsewhere. You demonstrated that pretty distinctly by saying I'm trying to retaliate against you for something as innocuous as what you said. Multiple editors have bumped into your behavior on their own through articles or noticeboards over time, and you are mistaking that for tag-teaming, out to get you, etc. It's your behavior that's catching up with you here. Either way, I'm not interested in getting pulled into the drama further. That's simply my take on this most recent development. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:55, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support boomerang and topic ban. Atsme's comment above has proven Bishonen's point. That boomerang might hit some other users that are opining here as well. Encouraging long-term disruption contributes to the problem. Geogene (talk) 01:52, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I am sure you realise of course the boomerang could be aimed at you. Why bring up the subject unless you are perhaps wanting to contribute to long-term disruption - the very thing you are warning against!?DrChrissy ^(talk) 11:10, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support boomerang and topic ban per Kingofaces43, Bishonen et al. This has gone on long enough. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:59, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support boomerang per Bishonen (change to support for site ban per Doc James, because of continued cavalier attitude to copyright which jeopardises the Project). If there was any doubt before, Atsme's recent behaviour here has sealed the deal. Alexbrn (talk) 12:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support boomerang per Bishonen; I am also getting the vibe of not able of letting things go, aka dropping the stick, based on below comments with Doc. Callmemirela {Talk} ♑ 15:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support boomerang and topic ban at the very least, per Bishonen, Kingofaces43 et al. Writegeist (talk) 17:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose boomerang. Legitimate disagreements, legitimate raising of issues should in general not be "boomerang"ed (it's just part of Wikipedia bullying), and not here in particular. --doncram 17:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support boomerang I was considering not commenting here as it originally seemed that not much action would need to be taken, but WP:ROPE has prevailed as evidenced in the exchanges between Atsme and Doc James. They allegations made were quite ridiculous and it seems to have become a pattern for Atsme to engage in such accusations in attempts to discredit those who disagree with her. She does not appear to be willing to acknowledge her own wrongdoing and instead continues to engage in the most blatant battleground behavior I have seen in a long time. I recommend a long block with topic ban from the boards. Winner 42 Talk to me! 17:37, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Instead of joining in the mud-slinging why don't you provide the diffs to support your allegations? Every single comment here amounts to casting aspersions because there is not one diff that supports anything that's being said. If you consider defending one's integrity a "pattern of bad behavior" then I'm not the one with issues. I was doing fine as a happy collaborative editor until AndyTheGrump decided to WP:OWN AVDUCK and impose his POV on the essay without any discussion on the TP. I am weary of the groundless allegations - they are unfair and dehumanizing. This has to stop. Atsme^📞📧 18:48, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• [157] Provides good evidence of battleground behavior and refusal to acknowledge criticism. Other than that, we have nearly every comment you have made at this ANI, the merit less Arbcom case [158] (The most damning part is where Atsme accuses those involved in forming a "cabal"), the merit less COIN case, and especially the exchange with Doc James on this thread. I could provide diffs, but based on your past behavior, you would not be able to understand what you have done wrong despite being repeatedly told so, and I believe that neutral parties will understand based on the evidence presented in this thread. Winner 42 Talk to me! 19:47, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support boomerang There is such abundant evidence of WP:Abusing the system that I can not see any other solution than a ban from this type of editing. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 19:22, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose-This is ludicrous. The editors who should be blocked include AndyTheGrump, Jps, Quack Guru, and Ca2james. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pekay2 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per the opinions expressed by SoHam321 and BobMeowCat. LesVegas (talk) 22:51, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

This kangaroo court needs to be dismissed

If anyone needs evidence of what WP:POV_railroad looks like, they need look no further than right here. I have grown weary of being beaten with a stick that the main subjects of this ANI have refused to drop, and is now being passed around as a show of support for editors who have clearly been disruptive, demonstrated hatred and bias toward me, have clearly indicated their advocacy positions, have been untruthful, vindictive, retaliatory, and punitive. I've provided all the necessary evidence supported by diffs. I made a GF attempt to resolve a very serious issue regarding the obnoxious behavior being displayed at a low-impact essay including tendentious editing, incivility, WP:OWN and now that same behavior has exploded here. This boomerang is not even related to the incident and is nothing more than a means to castigate me and cast aspersions without providing any diffs. It is POV pushing for unwarranted reasons and has been allowed to escalate for whatever reason. What editor isn't going to defend their integrity? I apologize if I drew unwanted attention to the bad behavior of certain editors favorite colleague, or a project team member, or collaborator you adore but what you cannot dismiss is the fact I've provided diffs to support my position unlike the allegations and downright lies that are being told about me. Atsme^📞📧 16:23, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Kangaroo court? Didn't you open this? Seems like you are saying it's legitimate if you get your way but otherwise not. This is not a court. People can and do look at evidence that is not introduced.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 17:17, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Those who use the term "kangaroo court" often find boomerangs headed their way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:35, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I find the term interesting considering a great many editors supporting the ban on her have had disagreements with Atsme. AlbinoFerret 17:48, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

If you feel that there is any vexatious litigation on the part of anyone who has had a disagreement with Atsme then feel free to provide evidence.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 17:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Your statement alone shows you are expecting the worst. The perception of impropriety and the possibility of bias creeping in is very possible. If you want a list of all those who have taken part who have had disagreements with her to show involvement. Thats possible. AlbinoFerret 18:04, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

That's really interesting and all. I just wonder if I look thru if I will find any previous disagreements between you and AndytheGrump or JPS. I wonder if any of those of you who have come here to speak out against those individuals and quackguru have had any disagreements with those individuals in the past. This matters only now that the messenger may have shot herself in the foot. If there's any evidence of any impropriety or any bias that shouldn't effect Atsme here please bring it. It can later be brought to ARBCOM as I understand it. I've had disagreements with Atsme before and I've even defended Atsme before. But I'm wondering why the possibility of bias matters but only when it applies to Astme. seems like abit of a double standard.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 18:38, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

That's a really lame accusation to make, AlbinoFerret. I have never ever had any contact with Atsme until this thread was created. Even then, we haven't even contacted or crossed paths directly. We haven't spoken to each other. So do I exactly have had disagreements with her? Not everyone who supports a topic ban or block has had disagreements with someone over x reasons, something you seem to perceive. Callmemirela {Talk} ♑ 18:45, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The lame accusations aren't being made in my defense. They are being made by my attackers. I think it's pretty sad that all the haters have joined forces to cause me harm, and those that may not be haters misinformed and have adopted a lynch-mob mentality considering every single accusation against me lacks evidence. It really is sad. I could say all kinds of things about my attackers and never provide a diff. Perhaps that is what I should have done - and also lied about them like they've lied about me. Atsme^📞📧 18:54, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

@Callmemirela I said a great many, not all. @Serialjoepsycho Andy and I have not had any real disagreements in the past that I can remember. We really only edited one article, Bitcoin. But he may have made a post or two in others I have edited in the past. AlbinoFerret 19:01, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Tagteam Dramaboarding

Check out Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc. It seems that @Atsme: is getting the rest of her tagteam to do her dirty work for her now. She tries to get a checkuser to come after me and then crows about it on the AVDUCK talk page. The cause is taken up by her comrade-in-arms @AlbinoFerret:. Just another fun day dealing with the alternative medicine true believers. jps (talk) 23:53, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I didnt know Atsme had tried to get a checkuser on you. But the edits on the AVDUCK page, right after you were brought here, an IP replaced one of your edits, twice, right down to the wikilinks on a relatively new and unused essay prompted me to start an investigation into whats happened. WP:SPI is the correct venue for such investigations to look into such edits.AlbinoFerret 23:59, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

According to logic you've used elsewhere, your claims of ignorance seems to fail the WP:DUCK test. Seems to me that you all are working as a WP:TAGTEAM. jps (talk) 00:00, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I have watched Atsme's talk page because we have worked together on the essay, but there is no tag team, I dont look at it all the time or follow her editing. I simply found it fishy on the essay and sought for an investigation into what happened. AlbinoFerret 00:10, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

According to WP:AVDUCK, I don't think that's a convincing argument. Do you? jps (talk) 00:13, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I too deny any involvement whatsoever in a tag team. I follow the essay and it's talkpage. I saw that Atsme had deleted an irrelevant edit and when this re-appeared, I deleted it for the same reason. I thought at the time it seemed rather unusual that an IP had made exactly the same edit as jps but I am rather naive in these matters and the very distinct possibility of sockpuppetry did not occur to me while reverting the edit.DrChrissy ^(talk) 00:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Seems to me that this is exactly what a sockpuppet of Atsme would say in order to encourage plausible deniability. Isn't that a reasonable suspicion on my part? jps (talk) 00:26, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

jps, aren't you against this specific essasy?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:42, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

An attempt to write for the enemy here so that maybe they'll see what they're doing is exactly what they're concerned everyone else is doing. The essay, for better or worse, is kept in Wikipedia space. Maybe they're on to something? I don't know. Help me out, here. jps (talk) 00:44, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

@Serialjoepsycho, it appears you are correct.[159] AlbinoFerret 01:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Albinoferret, aren't you for the essay?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:14, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I have edited WP:AVDUCK and !voted to have it kept. I think its useful now, especially new users, and I hope it improves over time. The essay recommends looking at your own behaviour first and not that of others. To focus on content and not to assume that the other editor is an advocate or a tag team. To me its more about useful advice than a weapon. AlbinoFerret 02:32, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Oh yes this is definitely tag teaming according to AVDUCK. They work together, they leave supportive messages for one another on each other's Talk page, and when one shows up the other three aren't far behind. How could one conclude any different ? </sarcasm>

Seriously, I hope this shows how disruptive it is to be falsely accused of doing something. Those who disagree with Atsme end up being falsely accused of things as a matter of course; that's part of how she rolls. It's unpleasant and it's chilling and it's disruptive and it doesn't help build an encyclopaedia. Ca2james (talk) 03:03, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

This right here really seems wp:pointy. Looks like we are trying to re-litigate the AFD. jps you are actually a highly competent editor. But then why are you disrupting a stupid and useless essay? It's a terrible essay. It's probably one of the worst I've seen on wikipedia, but it's more than clear that the authors meant it seriously. Your tagging it with humor categories and posting some posting Monty python in it. Just cut the crap already and quit trolling essay. While some of this BS Atsme has brought here seems vexatious (as does the COIN case currently opened by Atsme), some of Atsme claims see a little legitimate.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:55, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

SJP, it's an opinion piece - there is no right or wrong, and we all have opinions. I created and co-authored the essay with GF collaboration even though it was a bumpy road getting it to where it is today. We didn't just roll the essay out into namespace like most essays enjoy and remain in peaceful fashion. WP:AVDUCK became the eye of a hurricane - the wind blew and feathers flew - and the storm chasers were primarily members of Project Med. You are certainly entitled to have your own opinion about it which actually helps make WP a better encyclopedia. It is what it is. Atsme^📞📧 21:44, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

So you're saying that we should allow incompetently written essays like this because.... it helps the encyclopedia? Right. In the meantime, it is causing a headache for many editors who are doing your dirty work in trying to keep alt med articles neutral and well-sourced and your ilk seems happy to just say "cut the crap" when those of us who are in the trenches try to deal with stuff. My God. You don't think "advocacy ducks" is humorous? Fine. I'm not editwarring that. You don't think that the Monty Python reference is relevant to the scales in an essay about ducks? Fine! I'm not edit warring that. I'm seriously trying to figure out what the hell this piece is supposed to be beyond an anemic attack by true believers in alternative medicine on the status quo sourcing and NPOV standards at Wikipedia. Maybe it's supposed to be a humor piece. Maybe it's supposed to turn into something better. I don't know, but to tell me to "cut the crap" when I'm trying to figure out what to do about this mess that the admins don't seem to want to deal with themselves is a bit of having your cake and eating it too. So happy to know that you think the essay is horrible. What should we do about it? Just let it fester and be used as a weapon by the group of editors I've identified? Just give me an indication of what you think the best outcome here would be and as long as it results in a reaffirmation of the principles of sourcing and neutrality, I'll be happy to fall in line. jps (talk) 05:49, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I've seen many incompetently written essays. Beyond that this essay had an AFD opened for it, the result was to keep. The essay isn't causing any problems for anyone at alt med. Alt med had those same issues before essay and if this essay is ever deleted it will continue to to have those same issues. Do I find this essay humorous? Actually yes since so poorly written, however that is meaningless as it clear the editors meant it as serious. You don't need to take effort to delegitimize it as it does so well enough on it's own. I also feel again that you are competent and you realize they felt it was serious. Maybe you do have a point in turning it into a humor piece however just get a consensus. Beyond that cut the bullshit out. If you can't get a consensus then just move on. Cake and eat it to? Your actions legitimize this otherwise bullshit ani. You aren't the only one that needs to cut the crap however. The COIN case and the SPI are bullshit as well. I find it rather audacious that they would open an SPI primarily because their ANI isn't working. What more is that then forumshopping really? I do hope that the SPI gets reviewed for possible meat puppetry.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:47, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

@User:Serialjoepsycho. When you say "...that they would open an SPI...",(my emphasis) please would you clarify who you believe they are?DrChrissy ^(talk) 11:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

@Serialjoepsycho:. I understand that you think my actions of the WP:BRD sort are provocative. Please understand, however, that not everyone plays the insipid "get consensus first" game. It is possible to make edits and see if they stick. You also intimate that this essay is not causing problems for alternative medicine editing. I strongly disagree. I believe that the tacit endorsement of this group's behavior via the inclusion of this terrible essy in WP space has had direct negative effects at certain articles such as kombucha. This is a bit beyond the scope of this discussion, however, but I do find the strain of "go ahead and let them run rampant -- they won't make any progress" to be one that is shortsighted. I've seen that kind of hands-off approach go very wrong. Emboldening groups that behave poorly such as the Atsme contingent tends to be what marches us towards WP:ARB. On the other hand, I have seen success where certain groups have been shut down by effective and consistent pressure being applied in the correct direction. My point is that I think your approach is too accommodationist and liable to cause harm. I don't mind if you continue to hold that view, but you shouldn't be acting like it is somehow better than the approach I'm taking. jps (talk) 14:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

BRD is not a policy. You also posted an edit that completely changed the tone of the essay, an edit that can not be termed more than controversial and that has the potential to be reasonably seen as a provocation. Even your justification for it is half cocked. You don't really expect me to believe that you actually feel this is the proper use of BRD do you? If you want to use BRD great but we both know you know how to use it appropriately. Kombucha was in this same mess before this BS essay and there's really no difference now with the essay. It's the Same old crap that has been happening since the very first alt med article was posted on wikipedia.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 17:36, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

It is clear that Serialjoepsycho and I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc have a Battleground mentality about essays. This is a content dispute and therefore not covered by AN/I. I suggest that both editors are wasting Admins' time and should be dealt with accordingly.DrChrissy ^(talk) 22:36, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

If it wasn't for the battleground you wouldn't even be here now, Dr Chrissy. Content, tell me about this content dispute I'm involved in? Please provide some actual evidence. But since you can't actually provided that evidence go ahead and don't mention my name. I have addressed JPS conduct and specifically to them. The key word is conduct. It actually address a specific complaint that Atsme has made. I don't suggest but instead I point out that you are wasting Admins' and non-admins' time.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:04, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't know, man, it seems that you are simply not attributing my actions to good faith at all. I understand that these situations don't exactly lend themselves to magnanimity, so I don't really blame you. But, honestly, I thought the essay could use some fixing along the lines I attempted, and the essay deserves a change of tone, IMHO. I do expect you to believe that this is how I use BRD. It's not just in this essay. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Anyway, we should let this go, because it's clear to me that the behavior issues outside of my attempts to fix problems with one of the worse essays on Wikipedia are becoming apparent. jps (talk) 12:29, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Look, I can either assume good faith or I can assume competence. I choose to assume that you are competent in your actions. I still do. Though perhaps I could assume good faith but then I would just assume that this situation had become very frustrating and that you perhaps you didn't consider the negative impact of the use of BRD in this situation. This is nothing more than me addressing your behavior and I hope you will consider this in the future. Although I do feel you have taken what I've said under consideration and well what more can be asked? With that there is no further need to say anything else. As far as your last comment however, I do not wish to misunderstand you, but If there is anything of issue you see with me in this situation then feel free to address it. Note, I also agree with your position on the quality of the essay.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 05:55, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Update on SPI

This SPI has been closed by Vanjagenije, with the remark "The evidence is too weak to take any action. Closing the case" before which he had said " please (I'm talking to all participants), stop using SPI as a battleground for your disputes, it is highly disruptive. There are dozens of cases waiting to be reviewed and I had to waste my time reading all this battling". Does anyone want to apologise or strike-through in the light of this outcome? Pincrete (talk) 13:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I dont have anything to strike. It was an investigation, and the evidence wasnt good enough, not that there wasnt some. But I think jps should strike all the tagteam and meatpuppet statements. Like this one,[160] as its casting aspersions. AlbinoFerret 18:10, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Nope.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Who are you to answer (in one of the most childish posts I have ever seen) for an editor who is making direct public accusations about other editors. jps should be called to account for his totally unfounded accusations.DrChrissy ^(talk) 22:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Who are you even talking to?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposed site ban for User:Quackguru

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

@Quackguru: I have looked at the present and previous behaviour of User:Quackguru. Quackguru has an ongoing history of blocks for disruption and uncivility. He has been topic banned once already:[161] and the continuation of uncivil behaviour(mentioned earlier in the opening post of this ANI discussion, with diffs)... I'd say Infinite site ban.--Müdigkeit (talk) 15:43, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Procedural oppose QuackGuru is a party to the Electronic Cigarette Arbcom case request that looks to be accepted. Let ArbCom sort this one out. Ca2james (talk) 15:52, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose and speedy close. While I love the histrionics of calling for an "infinite site ban", QG has been an asset in many areas of alt med editing. Excluding QG from Wikipedia would be a net deficit to the project. Many of the sources and citations added by QG have been among the best added to the articles and as WP:ENC comes first, I think it highly irresponsible to suggest this. I wonder whether the proposer has an ulterior motive. jps (talk) 15:51, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

1. Providing good sources sometimes is not an excuse for continuous incivility.
2. The community is not arbcom's slave. Also, that dispute is not the reason for this. Also, arbcom cases take their time. By banning now, we stop further disruption right now, and not weeks or months later(You could also propose to ban Quackguru from any editing except the arbcom cases he is involved in until the arbcom case is finished, if you think that we should leave the final decision to the arbcom).--Müdigkeit (talk) 16:09, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Are you a party to the e-cigarette arbcomm case? Would it benefit you directly if QG were removed from Wikipedia? jps (talk) 16:27, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I am not a party to the e-cig page, I have never edited there, but I have seen the behaviour of QuackGuru and the chronic nature of the incivility deserves the infinite site ban.DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:35, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I think you mean "indefinite". No one has ever been given an infinite site ban, to my knowledge. jps (talk) 16:46, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Do not patronise me. I know the difference between "indefinite" and "infinite". The proposal here is for an "infinite site ban". I happen to agree with that. It may not have happened before, but I think the extreme behaviour of the editor is probably deserving of the first imposition of this.DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

What you suggest goes against everything Wikipedia stands for, and claiming that QG is worse than any other editor ever is the kind of thing that tempts people to engage in mockery rather than reasoned discourse. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:22, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

You mentioned "Providing good sources sometimes is not an excuse for continuous incivility." User:Müdigkeit, please provide specific diffs of "incivility" or withdraw you request. QuackGuru (talk) 17:46, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Snow Oppose and Speedy Close. Good grief. WP:BMB: "Editors are only site-banned as a last resort, usually for extreme or very persistent problems that have not been resolved by lesser sanctions and that often resulted in considerable disruption or stress to other editors." This is not the case with QuackGuru. QG may not be the most equitable or collaborative editor, but he serves a valuable purpose to the project and does not warrant a site ban by any means. It is not the place of this ad hoc ANI mini-subthread to enact a site ban on a longstanding good-faith editor. Softlavender (talk) 18:01, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

We have this and this, which were mentioned in the opening post already; and one case in your block log(old), as well as this. And for disruptive editing... Well, just look at your block log, as well as the rest of the diffs provided in the opening post.--Müdigkeit (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed page ban for AndyTheGrump

Andy has refused to drop the stick. He was against the essay and wanted it deleted. [162]. After the keep vote he has been disruptive as shown above. He has written an essay that attacks the writer of the WP:AVDUCK essay and her motivations for writing the essay.[163] Advocacy Dragons He has linked to this essay of his in WP:AVDUCK. He has not relented but throughout this section has presented strawen, and mischaracterised another editor].[164] I suggest an indef page ban of WP:AVDUCK for WP:NOTHERE and failure to drop the stick.AlbinoFerret 02:42, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Let me see, you are asking for a 'page ban' because I have expressed an opinion [165] about a controversial essay? Yeah, that's bound to succeed... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:46, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

No, its for WP:NOTHERE and refusal to drop the stick, thanks for proving its a continuing problem. AlbinoFerret 03:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Do try to inject at least a smidgen of originality into your endless clichés - it does little to improve your case, and according to at least one expert on the subject can lead to corruption of your thought patterns: [166] AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:53, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret, in what way does Andy's essay attack ANYONE, it mocks a tendency we all have sometimes to imagine the whole world is against us, its 'message' is 'cool off'. It would help your case if you stopped alternating between claiming that you and Atsme have no objections to ATG's essay then immediately objecting to it.Pincrete (talk) 07:35, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I read ATG's essay shortly after it became available. I was left in no doubt whatsoever that it was aimed directly at Atsme, given the timing and context of the discussions.DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:01, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

"I was left in no doubt", does not answer the question I asked, but does point to the central flaw in this whole enterprise. "I think I see a duck" = you are a duck, "I feel I was maligned" = I was maligned, "I think I am right" = I am right (and anyone who doesn't agree is clearly a wrong-headed malignant duck). In the absence of any stronger argument, it is obvious tha ATG's essay is (as he says) pointing out the foolishness of 'tilting at windmills', but attacking no one, and therefore this ban-proposal is founded on nothing. Subjective feelings are not EVIDENCE to an impartial jury.Pincrete (talk) 07:48, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Please stop shouting. Then, maybe you can find an impartial jury.DrChrissy ^(talk) 12:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

• Support - Andy is a combative editor, refuses to drop the stick, and managed to turn this entire ANI into a BATTLEGROUND. It never ends. No one is stopping him from having his fairytale essay. It's in his user space and I even suggested he improve it and get it into namespace. Editors are weary of his battleground behavior, the relentless reverts and WP:OWN behavior, the untruths, the diversionary tactics he uses to game the system and so on. He should have dropped the stick and moved on after he created his opposing essay and linked it to AVDUCK. All he's doing now is creating more disruption. Atsme^📞📧 03:09, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

There is no 'untruth' in the statement that you started this ANI thread by calling for sanctions against me because "ATG mocked the essay in his user space and linked to it on the essay's TP" - with a link to my essay (Or rather to where QuackGuru had added it to the ducks essay - without my consent. Not sure why you did that). You objected to the essay. You objected to it being linked in the 'ducks' essay. As for the rest, per usual, no evidence... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:19, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

You're doing it again now, Andy. I did not oppose your essay. I actually suggested that you write one of your own, [167]. You did mock AVDUCK and create disruption there - that's no secret. Are you denying it, or trying to justify your disruptive behavior at my expense? There's also a link to the essay in your user space on AVDUCK. So what? I did not "object" to your user space essay as evidenced by the following diffs, [168] and here, [169] so I don't know why you continue to say I objected to your essay when it simply is not true, Andy. It looks like more of your BATTLEGROUND behavior and why we ended up here in the first place. Try taking a responsible approach and fess up to what you've done, and drop the stick. Atsme^📞📧 05:37, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, the evidence is in plain sight at the top of this ANI thread. You called for sanctions against me because I "mocked the essay in his user space and linked to it on the essay's TP". Fact. Simple undeniable fact. In plain sight. No matter how many times you try to confuse the issue through repetitive blather, the facts are still there. As facts. For all to see. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:46, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Add diffs to support your allegations, otherwise you're just casting aspersions. Atsme^📞📧 03:12, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

A diff to the first post in this ANI thread should be entirely unnecessary. Particularly when I have twice provided the exact text. Here it is though, since you seem to be having trouble remembering how you started the thread: [170] AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Read the diff because the reason I filed this ANI isn't focused on your antagonistic mockery of an essay which appears to be your only focus. It's about your tendentious editing, bullying, own behavior and the obnoxious hateful comments like the one you made to me: "You are beneath contempt, and the sooner Wikipedia gets rid of you the better." [171]. That comment alone justifies an iBan and page Ban to prevent you from doing me further harm. If you hate me so much, then stay away from me and stop the hounding and harassment. It's very obvious that you are one of the editors who adamantly opposed AVDUCK and have disagreed with my position on other articles as well. We are never going to agree, Andy - you are too filled with hate and I'm now beginning to wonder if it's not somehow rooted in misogyny. Only you know the truthful answer. I've grown weary of the unwarranted attacks and what has now become WP:POV_railroading. I've tried the RfC approach and was castigated while the tendentious editing never ceased; I even asked for admin intervention and got disruptive admins instead. I exhausted all other options and finally brought it to ANI. I was afraid it would turn into a kangaroo court and it has - and it certainly isn't because I deserve a boomerang or to be treated with such bias and disrespect because no editor deserves that, much less what happened to me with the unwarranted COINoscopy and everything that followed. I am appalled by some of the behavior I've seen and the comments I've read. I'm surprised it was allowed to go on this long. It's downright shameful, especially in light of the behavior I came here to report, and those who support it, including two admins. What on earth has WP become? Atsme^📞📧 18:04, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, 'holding an opinion that someone else doesn't agree with' isn't one of the definitions of misogyny. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:24, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose This is a rehashing of the same bullshit written above with the same lack of evidence.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:00, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment:Considering that Andy has written a rebuttal to WP:AVDUCK and has placed a link to his rebuttal in the main page of WP:AVDUCK, and considering Andy has repeatedly expressed his disagreement with the views expressed in WP:AVDUCK (this includes his vote to delete the article altogether), i would like to know from Andy why he would wish to continue editing the main page of WP:AVDUCK. As i see it, the problem in Andy editing this article in future is that Andy could inadvertently change the tone and intent of WP:AVDUCK if he continues editing this article. In fact all those who have expressed their disagreement with the views expressed in WP:AVDUCK should in my opinion refrain from editing WP:AVDUCK because of the legitimate concern that they could inadvertently change the tone and intent of the article. The efforts of those who have expressed disagreement with the views expressed in WP:AVDUCK should be directed towards doing editing on the rebuttals to this article. Soham321 (talk) 05:18, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Generally speaking, Wikipedia doesn't ban people from editing content because of their opinions. Particularly when their opinions appear to concur with both Wikipedia guidelines and the consensus of the community. I have made few edits to the 'duck' essay, and the only significant ones have involved twice reverting an edit by Atsme that the subsequent RfC has demonstrated she shouldn't have made, and of adding links to my own essay, per WP:WPESSAYS. I have no great wish to edit the ducks essay (as I have made clear, I think it should be deleted), but I think it is reasonable that I should be permitted to ensure that it doesn't become even less compatible with Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and practice. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:35, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Andy, the first edit I made in over a month you reverted twice without any discussion on the TP which clearly demonstrates WP:OWN behavior, [172] You falsely called it an attack on Wiki projects, and then started casting aspersions with the second revert [173]. The RfC has proven nothing because (1) there hasn't been a formal close, (2) there were only 1 or 2 oppose comments that were substantive, and (3) according to WP:Wikipedia Essays disputes between editors writing an essay should be handled differently from writing an article, because there's no need to agree on a single "right" version. A few days later and after much disruption by you on the TP you added an improperly formatted link to your essay [174] and then fixed it. Right after that all hell broke loose and you were right in the middle of it. Soon after I initiated the RfC, your first comment was a snarky PA against me instead of a substantive comment about how to improve the essay which I now see is never going to happen because of your fixated POV and BATTLEGROUND mentality, [175]. You kept on making snarky, baseless comments demonstrating your denial that projects don't have advocacy groups, [176] even though Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Guide says they exist, but you chose instead to attack me refusing to DROPTHESTICK, repeating the same nonsense over and over and over again until our heads were about to explode, [177], [178], [179], [180], [181], [182], [183]. You might also want to read the statement by SMcCandlish at the ARBCOM case [184] regarding advocacy groups. And then there's this diff wherein you state that if anyone removes your links again, you'll report them for tendentious editing, [185]. Doesn't get anymore ironic than that. Atsme^📞📧 06:38, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

"The RfC has proven nothing because... there were only 1 or 2 oppose comments that were substantive..."? Thank you Atsme, for demonstrating the contempt in which you hold the Wikipedia community. You started an RfC, and now that it isn't going your way, you appoint yourself judge and jury, and dismiss the views of anyone who disagrees with you. You are beneath contempt, and the sooner Wikipedia gets rid of you the better. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:46, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I think one would need to be very niave to not recognise that editors sometimes end up in 'camps', defending certain approaches, PoVs etc. What I find objectionable about this essay (and the attached 'dramas'), is that rather than endorsing a policy based, values based, 'cool off' approach, it invites a wholly subjective 'reds under the beds' mentality which excacerbates, rather than addresses the problem it purports to be advising about. Defenders of the essay, seem to be oblivious to the irony that - several of them - having followed each other from 'alternative medicine' through the various admin boards, are a perfect example of what they claim to be identifying.Pincrete (talk) 08:21, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The essay has been through the deletion discussion twice. "Defenders of the essay" includes the community as a whole. At this point, as Doc James notes above, it's time to drop the stick. There is nothing defensible about Andy's comments such as "You are beneath contempt, and the sooner Wikipedia gets rid of you the better." It's obvious why Atsme is having a problem with him, and an IBAN at the very least is in order. There is no justification to bash a person for writing an essay, nor to follow them around and bash them some more. If Andy feels so strongly about Atsme, he should stay away from her. It isn't Atsme who is inviting this drama; any sensible editor would have taken him to ANI sooner or later. petrarchan47คุก 01:14, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

nb edit conflict.The first 'deletion discussion' was a clear speedy delete, the second was a non-admin close concluding only that there was no consensus for delete, so 'defenders' does not include 'the community as a whole', except in the sense that a 'default don't delete' decision was reached. Apparently 'drop the stick' did not apply when this essay was re-instated without any undelete procedure, as in so much of this sorry saga, R&G apply only to others.

I have no prior involvement with medicine/ducks or any of the key players here (minor recent interaction with ATG), therefore before posting here, I followed umpteen COIN postings, talk page discussions, and a travelling circus on User:TPs. This led me to the conclusion that overall, the person who is disruptive, who is abusing noticeboards and other procedures to fight vendettas, who is incapable of respecting any opinion but her own, and who takes it personally if that opinion does not hold sway (regardless of the lack of evidence offered) is Atsme, and that therefore she is a net liability to WP. The 'essay' is formulated on exactly the same false premise that this ANI and umpteen COINs are based, namely that there exist droves of advocates suppressing legitimate material and creative editing, (for every time that actually happens, there are probably several dozen instances where this is the editor's fantasy. Even on the rare ocassions it does happen, it is an unproductive mindset).

AndyTG's assessment of Atsme's net worth ('beneath contempt etc'), is excessively and needlessly direct, however compared with wasting the time of innumerable noticeboards with no significant evidence, simply in order to wage some personal crusade, his 'sin' is small IMO. … … ps ATG expanded on 'beneath contempt' here, which one might see as clarifying or compounding the 'sin'. Pincrete (talk) 15:19, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

@User:Pincrete Just earlier today you wrote to me "Subjective feelings are not EVIDENCE to an impartial jury.[186] (the shouting is all yours) when I was offering my opinion about the intent of an essay. Yet in the posting above you state "...his 'sin' is small IMO." I believe IMO means In My Opinion. So when are opinions allowed and when are opinions not allowed...in your opinion?DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:55, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

User:DrChrissy, nobody said opinions are not allowed, there are some things that are inherently opinion/judgment (such as whether an editor is a + or-), however if you, Atsme and others wish to convince me and others, that ATG's essay is an attack, I/we expect a little more than your opinion. Ditto a COI, ditto being a 'duck', ditto, ditto ditto … (it would also help your case if you made up your minds whether you object to the essay or not). (nb inserted out of sequence with following post).Pincrete (talk) 16:41, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. If you expect the community to be convinced that ATG's sins are "small" I/we expect a little more than your opinion.DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:00, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm weary of being beaten by the sticks of tendentious hate-filled editors who refuse to drop the stick all the while accusing me of being tendentious without one diff to support their claims. An admin needs to close this ridiculous kangaroo court and take remedial action on my original post regarding the named disruptive editors. Atsme^📞📧 15:50, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

What you haven't taken into consideration is that an essay reflects the opinion of its creator and coauthors. Yes, they are open for all to edit, but attempts to change the intent, opinion and meaning of an essay is not encouraged and the reason we are here now. In essence, what you're saying is that you don't want the essay to reflect the opinion of its creator and coauthors - you want it to reflect yours and those with like-minded opinions. Really? We actually did make improvements to the essay in an effort to appease as many editors as we possibly could but that in itself is impossible. The essay is compliant with WP:PAG so there is no justification for deletion. If you have an opposing view, essay guidelines recommend that you write your own essay and link it to the one you oppose. It's black & white so the disruption that ensued at AVDUCK and what caused me to file this ANI is that a group of editors are trying to make the essay reflect their POV by changing the intent and meaning of the existing essay which is considered tendentious editing and own behavior, and it is highly disruptive. JPS has also strongly indicated that he is on a mission to save project med from what he considers to be a threat. Sad because it's all about his misapprehension of the essay which recommends self-analysis, AGF, and to go slowly before advancing the DR process. In light of the remedies proposed in the essay, the opposition to it is mind boggling but we're all entitled to our opinions. That's why we follow guidelines - WikiProjects have no special rights or privileges compared to other editors and may not impose their preferences on articles. When you click on that wikilink, it states: However, in a few cases, projects have wrongly used these pages as a means of asserting ownership over articles within their scope, such as insisting that all articles that interest the project must contain a criticism section or must not contain an infobox, or that a specific type of article can't be linked in navigation templates, and that editors of the article get no say in this because of a "consensus" within the project.. I didn't make that up - it actually exists. Now review the comments made by JPS above and you will see his advocacy in action - writing for the enemy, and it is causing a headache for many editors who are doing your dirty work in trying to keep alt med articles neutral and well-sourced and your ilk seems happy to just say "cut the crap" when those of us who are in the trenches try to deal with stuff. My God. and You also intimate that this essay is not causing problems for alternative medicine editing. I strongly disagree. Wow! That isn't how project teams are supposed to work - that's how advocacies work - and it's very disconcerting because it defies our PAGs. Atsme^📞📧 15:06, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

????Atsme, Who is this post addressing?Pincrete (talk) 15:19, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Strong oppose Somebody close this please. AndyTG is sometimes very 'direct', but there is no evidence of acting outside P & G .Pincrete (talk) 07:43, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose This is the same thing that Atsme is asking for above but AndyTheGrump hasn't done anything outside of policies and guidelines. He's allowed to disagree with AVDUCK, to write his own essay as an opposing view, and to link to it from AVDUCK. Andy was within policies and guidelines to remove text that he thought was an attack on Wikiprojects. That Atsme believes the objections to that proposed text are not substantive doesn't change the fact that the community is also objecting to the text. Ca2james (talk) 09:44, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Please close this. It comes down to 'I don't like your opinions so I want you removed'. Yeah, no. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:29, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support an indef page ban from WP:AVDUCK. ATG has a very long history of BATTLEGROUND behaviour almost wherever he edits, including the DUCKS essay. This is an opinion piece and editors should be able to express their opinion (within WP Guidelines and policy of course) without having to fend off disruptive editing. It will not harm ATG to be banned from just one of many articles he edits, but it will send a message to him about his disruptive style.DrChrissy ^(talk) 12:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Andy is free to have, and express, whatever opinion he wants about AVDUCK, as is every other editor here. Bans shouldn't be used to protect one side in a content dispute from their opponent(s). Thomas.W ^talk 13:17, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support To accuse another editor of being beneath contempt isn't acceptable in any circumstances Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:57, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Trout the proposer for being a tendentious editor. jps (talk) 15:08, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per Pincrete. 173.228.118.114 (talk) 16:10, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Suggest that AndyTheGrump and Atsme just agree to take an interaction break for a while to cool down, and this whole affair be concluded without further drama. -Darouet (talk) 20:13, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Thomas.W BMK (talk) 21:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Thomas.W as well. However, I support interaction ban between Atsme and AndyTheGrump (suggestion by Darouet). Callmemirela {Talk} ♑ 22:08, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support Per Dr Chrissy and my own observations noted above. I would strongly support an IBAN between Andy and Atsme as well - the problem isn't confined her essay. petrarchan47คุก 22:35, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Insufficient evidence that it is needed or that it will solve the underlying problem. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:43, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

  Doc, did you forget your comment above about them needing to drop the stick? And what about his nasty PA filled with hate when he said I was beneath contempt? You don't think he needs some time off to think about what he's done? Atsme^📞📧 02:19, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

  I am suggesting that you User:Atsme should not continue with this. Following this comment [187] the release was after the fact and for only one source.

  Per evidence here you however copied from multiple different sources.[188] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Doc, I will AGF and consider your comment to not be a threat. The information I copied was a factual list of credentials and awards - facts are not copyrightable - it was press release info in public domain and at the very least, fair use. I did my best to change the wording of his credentials but guess what - it's hard to change "Past President of the World Institute of Pain". You accused me of copyvio because you weren't convinced it wasn't a copyvio so I provided more indisputable proof. Now you're saying, well it was a copyvio before you proved it wasn't. Jiminy Cricket. Ok, I'll drop it. Atsme^📞📧 15:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• support-I agree with Jimfbleak. Accusing another editor of being "beneath contempt" is unconscionable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pekay2 (talk • contribs) 21:21, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• This proposal is too ridiculous to oppose. I see nothing in the essay which is directed personally at someone. If the involved people choose to read between the lines for some implied insult, it's not a problem. Kingsindian ♝♚ 14:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Atsme

I think it is time to start dealing with Atsme. This vexatious report is entirely characteristic of Atsme's approach: the problem is always everybody else, Atsme apparently believes nothing she writes is ever problematic, and anybody who identifies a problem is harassing, stalking, casting aspersions or in some other violating policy - which seems to be interpreted as "no criticism of Atsme is permitted".

It took a very long time indeed and several RfCs to get Atsme to drop the WP:STICK at G. Edward Griffin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and the immediate response was to write the original version of this essay, which was nuked because it encouraged assumptions of bad faith and basically implied that anybody promoting the scientific consensus was a pharma shill.

It is abundantly clear from the above that the problems of ownership, m:MPOV and the like, have not gone away. In fact they seem to have got worse. Supports for WP:BOOMERANG above seem to me to come from an understanding of exactly this. I believe a restriction of some kind is warranted, especially a restriction from abusing process to try to settle scores and gain advantage in content disputes. I therefore propose a six month topic ban from Wikipedia namespace for Atsme. Guy (Help!) 17:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Guy (Help!) 21:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support proposed ban, per my comments above. Alexbrn (talk) 17:47, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• comment :I wonder if this should be moved to the boomerang area? But none the less. In addition to any specific length topic ban and/or block a indefinite block should also be imposed per WP:CIR. Kangaroo court? This really comes down to a question of competence. Is there a secret evil wikipedia cabal just out to get her? Or does she recognise that she has done something wrong? It would be a waste of time to simply topic ban and/or block her if she did not in fact understand that she has done something wrong. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 17:53, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Necessary competence is a matter of opinion, but I don't think CIR applies to editors with a good article history, and if it does then that makes me really nervous. AN/I has never seemed like a kangaroo court? Maybe if you'd been angry? Geogene (talk) 18:39, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Good Article history notwithstanding WP:CIR is not limited to content.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 18:53, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

It also applies to all editors so please don't encourage anymore of this ridiculous criticism toward me. Guy is just picking up where COIN left off. They know I haven't violated any PAGs, and that I have been the victim of their retaliation. That's quite evident - in fact, you even caused me grief back when, SJP, and nothing would stick because there simply isn't anything that should stick. Guy thinks I'm pro-CAM and against project med the same way you used to believe I was anti-Muslim. In retrospect it makes me laugh because it's so far-fetched. I could care less about medical topics beyond how it applies to fish & wildlife or livestock. The extent of my involvement with med topics was when I tried to expand Griffin to get it promoted to GA. That was stopped by Guy and it now sits there as an ugly coatrack not unlike what you did with the IPT article. You can have it, I don't care anymore. It doesn't hurt me - it hurts the project. What hurts me are the PAs and aspersions and attacks on my credibility, all of which have been unwarranted. I also created an article about an amazing doctor, got it promoted to GA and now the Proj Med team has taken it over - not to improve it but for punitive reasons. They have an entirely different idea of improvement and I disagree with it. That is the only justification they have for wanting to get me blocked and/or banned from editing. I think it's pretty darn sad. They get away with a lot of stuff because of their sheer numbers while lone editors get tarred and feathered for having simple differences of opinion. The reactions I'm seeing from some editors reminds me of the Asch conformity study. Oddly enough I still maintain faith in the system because I know there are good admins out there. *sigh* Atsme^📞📧 20:37, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

This is one of the most frustrating things. Atsme is a nice persona nd can write decent articles, but as soon as anybody disputes her interpretation of the facts, it's straight into the same old litany of WP:TLAs, WP:IDHT and forum-shopping. Guy (Help!) 21:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Guy, what is equally as frustrating for me is that you know darn well I like you, and I know you're a good person, a talented individual, and you write exceptionally well. I feel like I know you and your family after reading the wonderful stories about your parents, and the other bits and pieces of your remarkable life that you were kind enough to share. I know in my heart that our differences are not that far apart and I do understand that you lose patience with me, and I'm sorry for that. I do listen to you, Guy, even though I don't act as quickly as you'd like for me to, but I do learn and I do understand where you're coming from. You have recognized the same things about me and you knew early on that my focus is about the storyline. That isn't going to change because I've done it far too long. I don't want us to be at odds - ever! I also don't want to be at odds with any other editor but when my integrity is under attack, I will defend myself, not because I think I'm always right and can't recognize when I'm wrong - Lordy I'm way past that - and yes, I do ask questions and I do take a stance but I'm also flexible and I do listen. My presence here at ANI is simply to get relief from the bullying I've experienced at the essay. It has nothing to do with WP:OWN - I just want to keep improving it, making it better and more useful for new editors. I'm not a child who needs their hand held. I realize my first attempt at writing that essay was terrible and it caused the Project Med team to distrust me but I was willing to make changes and with the help of coauthors and GF collaboration, we did make it better. Guy, I will gladly strike through the rest of my comments in this section if you and I can shake hands and forgive and forget. I've got a wonderful project in the works that I've been looking forward to collaborating on for the past month. Please let's not let these trivial matters ruin what's good about editing WP. Atsme^📞📧 02:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, your response here you discuss alot of things and it's abit rant like. It also suggests WP:IDHT. I'm not above reproach. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:59, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

SJP, it has taken me a while, but I do understand what you're saying and I respect your knowledge and straightforwardness. It took me a while to understand it all and I'm not still not there, yet, but I am trying. I just want to be treated with kindness and respect which is how we should treat all editors who volunteer their time to the project. You are well versed in WP:PAGs and I appreciate the help you've given me and your wise words of advice. I just want us to be happy and make good things happen. Atsme^📞📧 02:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I find it amazing the number of editors out for blood who have had disagreements with Atsme. One of which wants to dredge up the stale past for a present day ban. AlbinoFerret 17:52, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

If you feel that there is any vexatious litigation on the part of anyone who has had a disagreement with Atsme then feel free to provide evidence.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 18:02, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The first person to bring up Griffin in this thread was Atsme. [189] AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:06, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

As I said above, the "vexatious litigation" is a little strong. But there is a strong chance of a perception of impropriety and bias. A list of those involved in such disagreements is entirely possible, it covers a lot of those supporting bans.

While she may have brought it up Andy, its stale, and now its being attempted to be used for a present day ban, that alone has a smell of bias. AlbinoFerret 18:46, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump curiosity has got the better of me. I notice that the Proposed page ban for AndyTheGrump was opened by AlbinoFerret. I'm just wondering if you have had any "disagreements" with them in the past. In addition have you had any "disagreements" with any of the other editors who supported it? -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 18:48, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

As I posted above, I cant remember any disagreements with Andy. We really only have edited one article, Bitcon. Its possible either of us may have made an edit here or there on other articles, but no disagreements spring to mind.AlbinoFerret 19:13, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

You seem to have forgotten the Kombucha article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

To tell the truth, I dont remember you editing it, but if you say you have. I walked away from that article, nothing worth arguing over. AlbinoFerret 19:30, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I walked away from it too. I also walked away from Griffin. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who owns an article and when an editor is outnumbered and out tenured. The problem now is that I'm being pushed away from articles I created and co-authored so others can change their original intent to their POV and that is just plain wrong. Atsme^📞📧 20:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Atsme has a positive talent for pissing people off. And as you'll see fomr the age of the diffs, she bears a grudge. Nothing is ever settled until she likes the answer, basically. And since most of her complaints are frivolous, they rearely get settled to her liking. Here's the thing: I didn't follow Atsme here. I'm here because it's the admin board and I'm an admin. So's Doc James, the subject of Atsme's next reflexive complaint. Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus has no meaning for Atsme, I think,. Guy (Help!) 21:19, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - oh, Guy, I really tried to avoid bringing out the diffs that demonstrated your obnoxious, tendentious behavior but now I have no choice. Why did you start this?

• April 24, 2015 And Jesus Wept
• April 21, 2015 Talks to Ca2james about my COI ducks essay
• April 16, 2015 Atsme is in danger of climbing
• April 16, 2015 Antagonistic comments about me
• April 9, 2015 More antagonizing
• April 12, 2015
• - December 18, 2014 - wingnut drivel
• January 15, 2015 Calls a BLP a "low-life" It surprises me that he wasn't TB from editing BLPs
• - January 17, 2015 What happens when an editor disagrees with an admin
• - February 16, 2015 Finally got an ARB warning for his behavior
• February 16, 2015 Threatens me with ARBCOM and calls me ignorant
• - February 16, 2015 Demonstrates his political advocacy by calling Birchers "toxic"
• - February 18, 2015 Admin tells him he was casting aspersions against me.

Is it really necessary that I provide all the diffs that demonstrate all the PAs and harassment while I basically absorbed all the punches like what's happening to me for filing the ANI? And Guy - you were the one who commented to me about another editor just doing what men do. I don't want to have to pull out all those diffs so please retract this ridiculous request. Atsme^📞📧 18:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The diffs that failed to persuade last time? The ones that were subject to your vexatious complaints against me, rejected in multiple venues, while you were trying (and failing, per RfCs) to distort the article on Griffin to undermine the fact that laetrile is quackery? I think that was a spectacularly bad idea, because a lot of people here have memories long enough to remember that you already made these complaints and they wer erejcted, and in the context of a discussion of your obdurate refusal to accept any outcome you don't like, it constitutes a double-barreled WP:FOOTGUN on your part. Jesus. I think you are actually intelligent but sometimes your eally do act incredibly stupid. A ban form Wikipedia space is for your own protection. The alternative is very likely to be a site ban in the not very distant future. You can only get away with it so many times. Guy (Help!) 21:22, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Support I must say that this entire discussion seems to be mired with WP:WIKILAWYERING from Atsme's side. I support a ban from this type of editing. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 19:19, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Oppose - the diversionary tactics need to stop. Guy has a very strange POV toward BLPs and could care less whether or not a BLP is noncompliant with NPOV. When the RfC confirmed my position, Guy found ways to bypass consensus. It appears that's how things work on WP these days. He has managed to escape ARBCOM unscathed but what he is doing now by diverting attention from serious behavioral issues to settle his grudges with me is pathetic. I left the article Guy - you ran me off from there successfully. DROPTHESTICK. You all keep trying to paint me as the one who won't drop the stick but it's you. I've moved on - I just wanted an opportunity to expand an essay I created and co-authored and it has blown up into this. I was also run-off from another GA I created and had promoted and it appears what's happening now is just a continuance of what COIN failed to accomplish. The motives are nauseatingly transparent and I am more convinced now than before that they are rooted in gender bias. How much more pathetic can it get? Atsme^📞📧 19:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Since you asked: Waving the gender card to get sympathy and support in a discussion that clearly has nothing whatsoever to do with gender is as pathetic as anything can get. Besides, you can hardly !vote in a discussion that is about a proposed ban against you. Thomas.W ^talk 20:48, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose-Sure looks like a vendetta by Guy against Atsme. I witnessed his behavior toward Atsme at Griffin and it was pathetic.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pekay2 (talk • contribs)

Is this like one of those pictures that you have to stare at for along time and a crooked angle to see the hidden image? I'm looking above and I see where long before Guy came along that someone had proposed a boomerang. I don't see it.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Vendetta? Don't be silly. I worked long and hard to avoid getting Atsme topic-banned over that incident. Who started the RfCs to finally settle the issue? Who argued against requests at ArbCom? Yu are showing that there is factionalism on one side here, but not the side you were hoping for. Guy (Help!) 21:28, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Although I am wondering if there is a vendetta. Looking at Pekay2 very few wikipedia edits it does seem as if they have interacted quite abit on the opposing side of Guy and some of the other listed individuals here. Seems as if Pekay2 might have a vendetta.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:13, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Oh, please, Guy. You were the one who got the AE warning. Don't pretend you have clean hands. And SJP - let's not dredge up your disruptive past and the fact the BLPN decided in my favor. Seriously. The wrong editors are under the microscope here. Atsme^📞📧 22:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not above reproach Atsme. There's no point in any passive aggressive threats. If you would like to dredge up our past dispute then feel free to. Yes the BLPN that I opened to get a consensus was decided in your favor. The BLPN that I opened because you choose to ignore the prior consensus and actually did nothing to achieve a new consensus. Well it's not that you did nothing but do you really want to go into what you did. It actually lines up with alot of the complaints that others have made. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:07, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The warning that was rescinded you mean? Not relevant. What is relevant is your repeated attempts to abuse process in order to try to gain an advantage in content disputes. This vexatious request with its tendentious language is a perfect example. Guy (Help!) 13:20, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't really remember, but I think pekay2 might be a fan of some form of quackery or another. I tend not to get along too well with quackery advocates, so that seems like the most likely source of conflict given that I encountered Atsme in the context of her advocating for sympathetic coverage of the laetrile cancer scam. Guy (Help!) 13:20, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support based on my comments way above in the Boomerang section. This proposal is not so different than that one; I'd support either or a block based on the behaviours I described above and her behaviour in this thread. Ca2james (talk) 23:46, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support Wikipedia-space topic ban for Atsme per Guy. BMK (talk) 23:54, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Rehash of old complaints. This looks like an attempt to throw stuff on a wall hoping something sticks if the section lasts long enough. AlbinoFerret 01:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support At this point, it's abundantly clear that Atsme has difficulty accepting that consensus might go against her, or multiple people might vehemently disagree with her, except as the result of a malicious and coordinated conspiracy. (The community had to reframe the essay here from Atsme's original conception because of that attitude.) The Lightbreather case is the most recent and spectacular example, but this is a pattern I've seen in other cases: an editor is recalcitrant and litigious. This attracts scrutiny. The editor becomes even more uncooperative and less productive. The scrutineers become irritated, overbearing, and start to cross the line themselves. If no one intervenes, positive feedback continues until someone (on either side) self-destructs spectacularly, with collateral damage all around. Looking at this thread, it seems that if there really is an issue requiring RfCs, administrator feedback, policy changes, etc., there are plenty of sympathetic editors around to notice it and take it up, so I don't think any great harm will be done by asking Atsme to step away from the Wikipedia namespace for six months, as proposed, to break the cycle of tension and litigation. Choess (talk) 02:24, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• The level of drama and rash actions and vortex of disruption surrounding Atsme seems to be increasing rather than decreasing. Something needs to be done, although I think Bishonen's block just now of one month is much more reasonable at this point than a six-month. Future blocks can escalate in length if the problems persist, but I don't personally think we are at six months quite yet. UPDATE: Given the fact that Atsme just AfDed 14 of Thomas.W's articles as revenge for this comment, I Support a six-month block. Softlavender (talk) 13:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC); updated 13:28, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

That block was exactly what I was hoping to avoid. Atsme is often very productive in article space, but adding her to any drama is definitely a recipe for disaster, hence my proposal for a six month ban from Wikipedia space. I wonder if we could form a consensus for that and perhaps lift the block? I acknowledge that this might be Quixotic. Guy (Help!) 13:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

No, the 14 revenge AfDs, and the resentful self-justification in reply to questioning them, have preempted any kind of parameters on the sanction; WP namespace only would be insufficient. Enough WP:ROPE has been given, I believe, and the community cannot endure more of this. Softlavender (talk) 13:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Doc James

I notice Doc James's demand for a site ban on Atsme has received some support from other editors (who are citing the Doc when voting for a boomerang action against Atsme). The problem is that this demand is prima facie completely misconceived as these two diffs show: diff1 and diff2.Soham321 (talk) 18:35, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The allegations against me for copyvio are unsupported and were followed by more than one threat as the following diffs will evidence.

July 12, 2015

[190] I explain to Doc James that I disagreed about copyvio and contacted author

[191] Doc James insists on copyvio and his concern

[192] I disagree because it's public domain - asked him to please stop trying to make me look like the bad guy

[193] Doc James says it's first time I said it was public domain, and found it interesting that it was first time I mentioned it.]

[194] I explained that I did mention on TP, and how I came to write article, said I was weary of accusations.

[195] Doc James wanted me to state that I did copy & paste, that it was not allowed, and that I wouldn't do it again.

[196] I explained why I would not do it, why it wasn't copyvio, and ended with the appendectomy quip.

[197] Ca2James chimes in with why it was copyvio, won't DROPTHESTICK.

July 13, 2015

[198] Alexbrn chimes in with his rendition of copyvio, won't DROPTHESTICK

[199] I told them to Drop The Stick. Explained I had contacted author per Doc James. Explained you cannot copyright facts.

[200] Alexbrn continues about copyvio, won't DROPTHESTICK

[201] Ca2james continues about copyvio

[202] Told them to refer above

[203] Doc James tells me my arguments don't make sense. Please note that if you do what you did again and you will likely get blocked.

[204] I asked him to explain what I did.

[205] My warning is that what you did is not allowed. And if you do it again you will likely get blocked.

[206] I asked him to please tell me what I did. (He never responded)

[207] I posted the permissions that it was free of copyright and in the public domain. I also said, "Correct me if I'm wrong, but to issue warnings of blocks without specifying what I did wrong is inappropriate, and carries the strong scent of retaliation. I'm not a bad editor and I actually am competent not to mention thorough. I'm not perfect but I strive to be." He never responded.

ANI - More threats by Doc James:

[208] Threatens me to not continue

[209] More misinformation about copyvios

Seriously, what would you do if you were accused of copyvio when you knew full well you had not violated copyright law? Atsme^📞📧 19:06, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Did you know it when you made the initial edits though? The e-mail seems to postdate them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:23, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Atsme, for providing another data point in the "it's everybody else and never Atsme" narrative. I have tried and tried to show you why this constant vexatious complaining is an issue. You won't listen, it seems. Guy (Help!) 21:12, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

It is remarkable how thorough Atsme is able to be at pointing out when other editors are unable to DROPTHESTICK, and how readily she is able to detect when other editors' actions carry the "strong scent of retaliation".

Per AndyTheGrump above, I do also wonder if Atsme is able to clarify for us the basis for her declaration that the document in question was in the public domain prior to her request for permission of its authors. Securing the release of a document into the public domain – while sometimes useful – isn't actually the same thing as a document being in the public domain all along. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:36, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

_{'she', not 'he' AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:47, 4 August 2015 (UTC)}

Amended. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

It appears some editors need to contact a copyright attorney to answer their questions. I've spent a small fortune keeping a copyright atty on retainer for the past 30 years. I've said all I'm going to say. Atsme^📞📧 22:04, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

In other words, you didn't look for permission to use the text until after you were warned about it, and this whole thing is a baseless smear of Doc James. Thanks for clearing that up. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:58, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Never, never, never my intention. [210]. What's happening now is quite the opposite. I realize that my providing diffs to support my position are not held favorably by Proj Med members, and I did not want or expect this ANI to escalate to this point. I am simply defending my honor and credibility. I am not the editor I have been portrayed to be and anyone who takes the time to investigate the accusations against me will discover the truth. I have nothing to hide. I simply want the hounding, harassment, false accusations, tendentious editing, PAs and overall disruption to stop. That's why I initiated this ANI in the first place. I tried to add a simple sentence to an essay I created and coauthored and was prevented from doing so by AndyTheGrump, then Jps, then Ca2james, and QuackGuru. This fiasco did not have to escalate to this point. It wasn't because of me that it did. Read the original filing and go from there and you'll see where the disruption originated. Atsme^📞📧 23:35, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

How did jps, Ca2james or QuackGuru prevent you from making the edit? I reverted you, advised you that if you had a problem with me doing so, you should take it to ANI. You didn't. Instead you started an RfC (weeks later), and only then, after it became apparent that the community agreed that my revert was correct did you raise the matter here. Along with a whole lot of other contradictory nonsense. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I can not believe this is being raised here. What more evidence do we need of a vendetta against Atsme? People - some of you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves and you really need to have a very close look at your motivations for being involved in this project.DrChrissy ^(talk) 23:07, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Support Atsme. we need more editors who will stand up to admins. Power to the regular editors and not to the elites. Imagine having to have a copyright lawyer on retainer just to edit around. @Jimbo:, isn't it pathetic that your project has come to this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.171.121.182 (talk) 19:11, 4 August 2015‎ (UTC) Struck as troll.

The above IP editor is clearly a regular editor masking their identity. Their comments should be ignored until they are posted under their actual account name. BMK (talk) 23:51, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

There are plenty of editors who will stand up to admins, and most of them do not have the unfortunate problem Atsnme has, of being wrong much of the time. Guy (Help!) 23:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Reverse Boomerang

What obviously happened was that Atsme freely used the source material in her edits because as per her understanding the source was not under copyright protection. She freely used this material which included facts like the organization the individual (whose WP biography she was editing) was affiliated with and the awards he had won, and so forth. Subsequently, when challenged, she contacted the author of the source material and confirmed from him that the source material was not under copyright. To demand action against Atsme for this, and to keep making this demand or seek explanations from her tendentiously and persistently, constitutes harassment and deserves a reverse boomerang in my opinion. As i see it, Doc James has recognized the danger of a reverse boomerang occurring. That is why, after his initial demand for site ban for Atsme on the basis of his copyright violation allegation, he is no longer participating in this discussion after his view was challenged. Soham321 (talk) 00:12, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Please stop posting nonsense. Nobody is demanding action against Atsme for copyright violations. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Please see diff1 and then decide who is talking nonsense. Soham321 (talk) 00:42, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

What part of "Nobody is demanding action against Atsme for copyright violations" do you have difficulty understanding? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Did you read the diff i gave in my earlier response to you? If no, read it. If yes, re-read it. At any rate, i have pinged Doc James in my first post in the Reverse Boomerang section, and if he feels i am misinterpreting what he has written, then he is welcome to correct me. Soham321 (talk) 01:26, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

As ridiculous as this is why would Doc James bother responding. There's really no need. Half of it is speculative. Really Doc JAmes isn't here because they are scared of a boomerang? Well I can play that game to. Doc James isn't here because they are on a plane to France to Visit Jim Morrisons grave. I don't know if this is true but it's just as likely as the nonsense that you make up on the spot.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 01:40, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

"no longer participating in this discussion"? What are you talking about? I made comments here on Aug 3rd and 4th. I do not need to comment every couple of minutes to be still participating. Must work too. 01:53, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Request for closure

• This is a contender for the silliest (aka WP:LAME) thread ever. The link to Andy's essay should never have been removed. You folks evidently enjoy arguing with each other. Viriditas (talk) 01:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

God yes. --JBL (talk) 01:40, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Atsme blocked

Georgewilliamherbert has hatted this whole long thing as "Failure to identify actionable disruptive behavior other than the acusations back and forth themselves. No good is coming of this. Everyone gets a Trout." Not good enough, George, especially in view of Atsme's ongoing disruption after your hat. I have reopened it, and assessed the consensus wrt sanctioning Atsme. A little confusingly, it's spread across two subsections, "Boomerang suggestion" and "Atsme", but looking at them together, or indeed just at the Boomerang secion on its own, there is obviously consensus for a sanction. Quite a few people in fact recommend an indefinite siteban, others a ban from the noticeboards and/or from the essay Advocacy ducks. The evidence of the past few days suggests that no kind of topic ban will do much to contain Atsme's ongoing disruption — it would only move somewhere else. Compare this just now: nothing to do with any of the problem topics described here, but consisting of fourteen posts to Thomas.W's talkpage within a few minutes, prodding fourteen of his articles with identical (formalistic) rationales, with no attempt to discuss with him first. This looks like retaliation against a user who has disobliged her in this thread. I have blocked Atsme for one month. In my personal estimation that's too short, but I have taken into consideration that there are no previous long blocks in her log. Bishonen | talk 12:31, 6 August 2015 (UTC).

Bishonen, I recognize that you are doing what you think is best, but would ask that you reconsider the length of the block, recognizing that Atsme suffered some pretty strong harassment early on. She's a strong content creator and a female editor, perhaps we could find someone from the GGTF to mentor her? Just a suggestion. GregJackP Boomer! 16:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, GregJackP, but I'd rather leave it to the admin that reviews her unblock request. (I'm fine with any modification that the reviewing admin may want to make, up to and including an unblock.) However.. I can't help but notice that her unblock request is unlikely to help her cause. IMO. If you want to help her, Greg, perhaps you would like to try to advise her on her page about formulating a better unblock request. She's allowed to change it at any time. Bishonen | talk 17:28, 6 August 2015 (UTC).

OK, thanks Bish, I'll do that. GregJackP Boomer! 17:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Is it allowed to reopen a discussion correctly hatted by a closing admin, then issue a ban without further discussion? This seems to leave the previous closing admin in rather a "difficult" position.DrChrissy ^(talk) 12:49, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

It's not the first time that an admin reopens a discussion closed by another admin because of things that have a direct connection to what has been discussed in the closed discussion, but happen shortly after the discussion was closed. As in this case. I have never crossed paths with Atsme, neither on Wikipedia nor in real life, before this ANI-discussion and the discussion at Wikipedia Talk:Advocacy ducks, and Atsme has AFAIK never shown any interest in articles about rare fish species before, so targeting 14 of my properly sourced articles about rare catfish species was IMO done in bad faith, to get back at me for voicing opinions that she didn't like. Thomas.W ^talk 13:43, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Thomas. I can assure you that Atsme does have a long and ongoing interest in rare fish species. Please look at Paddlefish, Alligator gar and Sturgeon - just 3 examples I know of.DrChrissy ^(talk) 14:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Species that have nothing in common with very small and very rare Asian catfish species, species that are so obscure that there's no way she could have found those articles without specifically targeting me. If she had been into rare species she would also have known that properly sourced articles about correctly described species are inherently notable per WP:SPECIESOUTCOMES. As evidenced by Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glyptothorax conirostris being quickly closed as speedy keep. Thomas.W ^talk 14:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course it is. It happens all the time. Guy (Help!) 19:25, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Please state your reason as to why the multiple WP articles on the different species of Catfish should not be merged into a single article. As of now at least all these articles are stub-like in nature. It will be more convenient for the reader if all these articles are merged into a single WP article (which is also something Atsme had suggested). Soham321 (talk) 14:26, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Because every one of the altogether around 90 species of small Glyptothorax needs a separate taxobox and description. Making the current system, with a list naming all species, plus a separate article for each species, better (so far only a relatively small number of such separate articles about each of the many species have been created, but I intend to do all of them...). A system that is used for a very large number of species here on en-WP, not only the articles that I have created. Thomas.W ^talk 14:52, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I oppose your idea. My suggestion is that since all the WP articles on Catfish species are stub-like in nature, they should be merged into a single WP article. As more and more material is added to a specific Catfish species on this single WP page, one by one we can create forks and create new WP articles on a particular Catfish species (if there is sufficient material about this species). As i understand, the need to keep the convenience of the reader in mind should be paramount and the reader is not well served by creating numerous stubs of the Catfish species. The approach you suggest is also not beneficial from the point of view of expanding the content for each of the Catfish species.Soham321 (talk) 14:59, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Comment: Atsme had also suggested that the different WP stub like articles on the Catfish species can be merged into a single WP article. As i see it, this has boiled down to being a content dispute. This is further evidence that the block on Atsme was unjustified. Soham321 (talk) 15:22, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Thomas.W if these very rare Asian catfish species really are "...so obscure..." then perhaps they are not deserving of their own page and Atsme was justified in her actions.DrChrissy ^(talk) 14:44, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Each scientifically described species deserves an article, no matter how obscure the species is. Thomas.W ^talk 14:52, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I have been through the list of 14 species pages that Atsme edited. Of the 14, only one appears to be endangered. It's curious that you have been suggesting multiple species are rare.DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:00, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

It's off-topic in this thread but one of them is listed as critically endangered and seven aren't categorised at all by IUCN because of being so rare that there's very little information available about them. And if attacking that is the best you can do in your attempt to support everything Atsme does, I suggest you reevaluate your strategy. Thomas.W ^talk 15:24, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Apart from the irrelevancy of DrChrissy's last sally... I would suggest that if someone were to explicitly go against established practice in species stubs (for which a case could conceivably be made - it's not a rule after all), the initiative should not be coming from an editor who is clearly acting in revenge.--Elmidae (talk) 15:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

It's not irrelevant or off-topic if someone has been misleading other editors about the subject matter. If the 6 that are uncategorised really are so rare that they can't be categorised (we only have your word for that) then this still leaves 7 on the list that are at least not threatened. My motivation here is not to support Atsme - my motivation is that I do not like being misled...DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:38, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

You disappoint me, DrChrissy, claiming that you've been mislead is just plain silly. And this whole discussion is totally off-topic in this thread, which is about Bishonen blocking Atme, as I already have pointed out a couple of notches up. You're free to continue the discussion on my talk page, but it most definitely doesn't belong here, so I suggest someone collapse the off-topic responses here. Thomas.W ^talk 16:13, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The whole discussion is completely appropriate because it shows Atsme has been unjustifiably blocked because of a legitimate content dispute. Soham321 (talk) 16:15, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Except they weren't blocked because of a content dispute. They were blocked for disruptive editing, battleground behaviour, and borderline WP:NOTHERE. And their meatpuppets who keep pretending this was a legitimate content dispute may not be around for much longer either. 2607:FB90:1F02:C56D:48D4:33F6:BDE4:934B (talk) 16:22, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Comment This appears to be a Single Purpose Account.DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:44, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Pot. Kettle. Black. 2607:FB90:1F02:C56D:48D4:33F6:BDE4:934B (talk) 16:56, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Yup, It's a fair cop. For anyone taking this IP seriously, take a quick glance at my user page to see how ridiculous their edit is.DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:13, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I am not claiming we were misled, I am stating we were misled. Your edit here [211] states "...so targeting 14 of my properly sourced articles about rare catfish species...". It is clear not all 14 articles are about rare fish. I wonder whether you attempted to raise the apparent importance of your articles to perhaps increase the apparent disruption or damage and thereby raise the anti- toward Atsme.DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

It is entirely INCIDENTAL to the issue whether these fish are rare, common, or animated slabs of shoe-leather; your chagrin over being 'misled' appears rather self-serving; and I'd advise that we all would probably would do best to stop replying to this particular side circus.--Elmidae (talk) 17:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I am very much opposed to overriding an uninvolved Admin's wise move to close the drama by an involved Admin. Atsme shouldn't have been blocked by someone who has a history with her. petrarchan47คุก 16:43, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Bishonen has no history with Atsme beyond commenting in this thread. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:51, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

You are mistaken. This is a diff from Bishonen's talk page: [[212] Soham321 (talk) 16:54, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

That diff postdates Bishonen's post in this thread - it isn't evidence of a prior history. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:58, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The previous diff revealed Bishonen telling Atsme to stay away from Bishonen's talk page unless it was an Admin related issue she wanted to discuss. When Atsme responded to Bishonen she agreed to honor Bishonen's request and in return requested Bishonen to stop stalking her on talk pages.And this is the diff: [213]. This suggests a prior history. Soham321 (talk) 17:06, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

There is no history between Atsme and Bishonen prior to Bishonens's posting in this thread. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:10, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Please do not make any such definitive statements since you have no way of knowing the truth in this matter; ideally we should be giving an opportunity to Atsme to give diffs of prior interactions with Bishonen. Soham321 (talk) 17:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

In other words, you have no evidence to support the claim of prior history, but have been making it anyway. As someone with a prior history of being blocked by Bishonen. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Soham321, unless you can actually provide a diff of any involvement between Atsme and Bishonen prior to this incident, this would be a good time to stop, given that you yourself do have a history of involvement with Bishonen. Black Kite (talk) 17:27, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I will honor your request, but i will also clarify that just as i have a history of involvement with Bishonen prior to the present discussion thread, so also i have a prior history of involvement with Atsme prior to this present discussion thread. Soham321 (talk) 17:38, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

You may want to read WP:INVOLVED, specifically the second paragraph, prior to posting any further accusations of misconduct. I'm certain it doesn't mean what you think it does.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 19:49, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

For those questioning whether there was a history between Bishonen and Atsme prior to this thread, please look here where this template was posted on April 12th[214] in response to this interaction[215] which was posted on April 9, 2015. Guy responded here[216] — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrChrissy (talk • contribs) 6 August 2015, 21.32 (UTC)DrChrissy ^(talk) 21:37, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

In what way does a diff showing that Bishonen posted "a casein geology barnstar for your great work on the composition of the moon" on JzG's talkpage show any previous interaction between Bishonen and Atsme? Thomas.W ^talk 21:40, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, it would be helpful if those throwing our the accusations of WP:INVOLVED actually read it. Simply having had interactions with a user previously is not a violation. If you have to try this hard to try to connect some convoluted dots then the likelihood of a breach of the policy is practically nil. We're not playing Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:49, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The fish thing? It's a distraction.

The issues with Atsme's behaviour are:

• Tendentious editing
• Describing good-faith edits as vandalism
• Refusal to acknowledge points made against her
• Ownership of articles
• Abuse of process to try to gain advantage in a content dispute
• Asserting that the problem is always everybody else and never her
• Retaliatory deletion nominations
• Turning every dispute into a war
• Following people round once she's picked a fight
• Refusal to let go even after it is obvious that the dispute is not going her way

I could go on.

This is not about the fish articles. It's about a long history of the same behaviour across multiple articles, multiple requests to multiple drama boards, against multiple other editors, over a long time, culminating in a set of WP:POINTY retaliatory deletion nominations.

The biggest problem is the complete absence of apparent self-awareness or self-criticism. Her unblock request says it all, really. In the words of Mark Knopfler, when you point the finger 'cos your plans fell through, you got three more fingers pointing back at you. Every regular on these pages knows it.

The supporters who have appeared here do not seem to actually support Atsme's edits, they only seem to have enemies and grudges in common. Guy (Help!) 19:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Action against Bishonen

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The 14 articles proposed for deletion by Atsme are here: [[217]. The articles are on fish species, and these topics would seem to be inherently notable on first glance per WP:SPECIESOUTCOMES. However, if you notice carefully, the 14 articles are not about species, but about sub-species of the Catfish species of fish. Atsme has, in responding to Bishonen said that they "need to be deleted and moved to Wikispecies, or possibly merged into a list. They do not warrant being separate articles." [218] This is a perfectly valid reason for proposing these 14 articles for deletion. It is absurd to imagine that since the creator of these 14 articles had voted against Atsme she would then target him by trying to delete articles created by him. There were many people who had voted against Atsme and there is no reason for her to try and target one particular person.

Atsme has said that Bishonen should not involve herself in taking any action against her. Please see the previous diff i have given for Atsme's post where Atsme has given two diffs to show that Bishonen bears ill will towards her. The first refers to when Bishonen proposed a three month block on Atsme in this very thread, and the second when Bishonen asked Atsme to stay away from Bishonen's talk page unless Atsme wanted to discuss some Admin related issue with Bishonen. Essentially, Atsme is invoking WP:INVOLVED. I propose some action be taken against Bishonen for abusing her Admin powers in violation of WP:INVOLVED. Soham321 (talk) 13:45, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Oppose any form of sanctions against Bishonen for doing her job. They're not sub-species, BTW, but "full" species in the Glyptothorax genus of the Sisoridae family of catfish (Siluriformes). And your reason for proposing sanctions against Bishonen, and indeed to get involved in this entire mess, are obvious. You want to get back at her for having issued a topic-ban against you. Thomas.W ^talk 13:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Comment: I stand corrected. They are indeed full species. However, there is no reason why we cannot have a single WP article on all the different species of Catfish. Soham321 (talk) 14:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Can you link to any diffs of Bishonen's supposed involvement in the dispute? I don't see any diffs linked, only Bishonen's comment at the ANI, which is an entirely admin-like observation that Atsme's behavior was disruptive. As for the fish articles, whether or not they actually need separate articles is beside the point; it beggars belief to posit that Atsme just happened to find a bunch of year-old articles in a topic area she'd never edited before, coincidentally right after their creator had supported a sanction. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Please re-read my response. The second diff that i gave contains Atsme's response to Bishonen which in turn contains two diffs showing what you are asking me to give. Soham321 (talk) 13:56, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay, re-read your response, still don't see any diffs of this alleged involvement. I don't think this thread is going anywhere. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:00, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You probably should stay out of this, Soham321. I think it is already well-known that you have an axe to grind where Bishonen is concerned due to your topic ban and blocks. - Sitush (talk) 13:54, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I have every right to comment on Bishonen's actions as an Admin if i believe she is violating WP policies and guidelines. Soham321 (talk) 13:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Are they sub-species? I'm no catfish expert, but Glyptothorax cavia seems like a species from the wording of the article. The multiple-Prods seem odd to me, and I disagree that it is absurd to imagine that there could be some ulterior motive. Per WP:INVOLVED, I don't see her actions as being any different that those that would have been performed by any other reasonable admin. Fenix down (talk) 13:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose and close this frivolous complaint. Bishonen did her job. This is, at best, a frivolous complaint. Dbrodbeck (talk) 14:06, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose and Speedy Close. (1) Atme's endless dramafest and then revenge AfDing had gone on long enough. (2) Bishonen took the consensus of this discussion (which actually preceded the 14 revenge AfDs), and if anything underestimated it. There's no reason to sanction Bishonen for doing her job; if anything, the bock should be lengthened -- the community should not enable users who revenge nominate 14 articles over a single ANI comment. Softlavender (talk) 14:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
• Although I think that some of these deletion ideas aren't that bad, in the whole... disruption.--Müdigkeit (talk) 16:49, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ArbCom?

I see in Atsme's unblock request [219] that she states that she intends to take matters to ArbCom. Since it seems to me that sooner or later ArbCom is going to become involved anyway, might I suggest that an offer be made to her that she can be unblocked, but under a strict topic ban which restricts her solely to filing the ArbCom case (until such time as the existing block expires) - no posts anywhere on Wikipedia except to Wikipedia:Arbitration subpages? The choice is hers of course, even if the offer is made - she can still appeal the block in the normal manner if she prefers. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The consensus to block was overwhelming; the chance of this going anywhere at Arbcom is tiny and if Atsme goes to Arbcom again, the most likely result this time will be a site ban. It doesn't help anybody, and especially not Atsme, to encourage that. Jytdog (talk) 19:51, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

It is possible to request Arbitration while blocked. That said, Jytdog's assessment of the extremely likely outcome is spot on, and encouraging Atsme to pursue Arbitration (indeed, restricting her to an Arb request as her only permitted on-wiki activity) would be counterproductive for all parties, especially Atsme. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:11, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

To clarify, I wasn't suggesting that Atsme be unblocked so she could appeal the block at ArbCom - she can do that anyway, via an email to BASC. It was her suggestion that she intended to start a case on the broader issues that I was addressing. As for whether it would be in her best interests to do so, I very much doubt she would take much notice of my opinion on the matter. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:19, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Multiple personal attacks by user:Harald Forkbeard that derail a RfC

re: Harald Forkbeard (talk · contribs) Talk:Mat (Russian profanity)#RfC: How much "poetic license" does a translator of primary sources have in wikipedia?

I had a disagreement about article content which was not solved by 1-1 talk. I started a RfA, during which I deliberately did not present my point of view. Several people joined and we are carrying out a meaningful, calm, nonpersonal discussion. With the exception of Forkbeard, who obvioulsy has an acute grudge against me.

Three times I warned the user that wikipedia policies forbid personal attacks, but I was derided to "blind adherence" to "obscure policies".

• [A warning about personal attacks], issued after a long chain of statements about my mental incompetence
• insult during RfC
• Again reminded about disallowed insults
• Insult; false accusations
• Insult; false accusation (I didn't revert anything since the start of the RfC, seeking other opinions)
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mat_(Russian_profanity)&diff=next&oldid=674034037 Third warning about personal insults]
• Continued insults

Normally I don't care how I am being called. I was even "Anti-Romanian antisemitic communistic vandal", I never complained, only chuckled. However in this case I think Forkbeard's multiple long diatribes about my negative personal qualities seriously derail the otherwise normal RfA discusson. Therefore I would like to ask an admin to take an action. -M.Altenmann >t 15:09, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

M.Altenmann >t>t has been acting in a hostile manner during the discussion on the Mat talk page. He has resisted all attempts to build consensus engaging in disruptive editing and obtuse interpretation of Wikipedia rules that only he holds to be applicable. He failed to make any meaningful contributions to the article choosing instead to clash with multiple editors and persist in his insistence on alleged rules. This position has been challenged by other editors. Instead of cooperating M.Altenmann >t continues to cause discord and disrupts others' work. --Harald Forkbeard (talk) 15:17, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I might add that I am baffled by the allegations of personal attacks by M.Altenmann. His attitude has been unhelpful. Please review the talk page and edit history on the Mat article for details. It is clear to me that M.Altenmann has taken a very hostile position towards my translation of the original Russian text for the article. For some reason, M.Altenmann refuses to collaborate with other editors. --Harald Forkbeard (talk) 15:27, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

False. Filing RfC is collaboration. Repeating that I am an idiot is not. -M.Altenmann >t 16:15, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

True. At no time did I or any other editors use personal labels you are referring to. You continue obstructing the consensus building on this Mat article. You are pushing your point of view and refuse to contribute to the article in any constructive way. This is not a personal attack, but a plain statement of fact. --Harald Forkbeard (talk) 16:44, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Harald Forkbeard, Could you please explain the following two edits?[220][221] --Guy Macon (talk) 17:57, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

What explanation are you looking for? --Harald Forkbeard (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

The comments you are referring to are an attempt to encourage M.Altenmann to get off the rules interpretation, and focus on coming up with a positive, tangible contribution to the article. To date, all he has done is criticize my translation without any constructive alternative being provided. This despite multiple editors explaining the situation to him, please read the talk page comments for Mat article.--Harald Forkbeard (talk) 18:53, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

If you read the whole mess on Talk:Mat (Russian profanity), in combination with the invitation posted by M.Altenmann on Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#RfC:_How_much_.22poetic_license.22_does_a_translator_of_primary_sources_have_in_wikipedia.3F, I think the handling admins should at least consider Wikipedia:Don't shoot yourself in the foot in this case. (Note that after asking for comments M.Altenmann responded on the first two comments of uninvolved editors with "<sigh> You are not addressing the concern" (to a comment by Diego) and with "You are wide off the mark" to my own first comment.) Arnoutf (talk) 19:06, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• (1) Please explain how the remark "you are not addressing the concern" is shooting self in the foot. (2) Please explain how Diego was in any way offended by it and how it damaged the discussion. (3) Please also explain how this remark justifies insults I am complaining about. (4) Please explain how you proved that the comment about "wide off the mark" was wrong. (5) Please explain why you took my remarks out of context here. -M.Altenmann >t 08:01, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
• I don't know about you, but if someone told me that my dogged insistence on rules again borders on obsession, that other editors make sensible and highly valuable contributions but mine are a bewildering array of misinterpretations on various Wikipedia rules without any constructive contribution, accused me of personal bias, and told me to refrain from editing the page and find something else to do, I would not feel particularly encouraged.

As for the implied "it's OK to behave poorly because others did so first" argument, we are responsible for our own actions, and in my opinion the above diffs show a WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality rather than the claimed "encouragement".

If anyone here wishes this noticeboard to consider the actions of others, please provide specific diffs rather than asking us to "read the whole mess". --Guy Macon (talk) 20:19, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree that Harald Forkbeards reactions are not very civil. But I think this should include a look at the mainspace edits (and summaries) by M.Altenmann that preceded the debate (including a response on an uninvolved editor invited to the rfc). [222][223][224][225][226] Arnoutf (talk) 21:16, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• If you think that these edits somehow justify massive attacks of Forkbeard, then you have serious issues with wikipedia civility rules yourself. -M.Altenmann >t 01:34, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
• With due respect, the comments made by M.Altenmann are not very civil either. Moreover, his actions are disruptive and relentless persistence at pushing the alleged Wikipedia rules interpretation is entirely non-constructive. He has consistently failed to offer any alternative to my good faith translation. Hence, the recommendation, made by several editors, to provide an alternative translation or, in my comments, suggestion to simply walk away. --Harald Forkbeard (talk) 21:44, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

For the benefit of Guy Macon, who is new to this discussion, I would provide some summary of what, in my view, happened to date:

1. I provided a good faith translation, from Russian into English, of some verses cited in the Mat article.

2. Given the obscene nature of these verses, a published source of this in English is extremely unlikely.

3. For some reason, M.Altenmann has taken exception to my translations. So far, this editor has stubbornly insisted that the translations are not verifiable. This stands to reason, as I have provided the translation myself.

4. Despite repeated attempts to encourage M.Altenmann to offer alternatives that pass muster in terms capturing the highly idiomatic essence of the verses, we have nothing still. Amazingly, M.Altenmann suggested that a verbatim translation provided by Google is better than the one offered by the native bilingual speaker. Forgive me for being extremely skeptical.

5. Despite several editors encouraging a constructive path toward consensus building through expert discussion of the verses and their translations, M.Altenmann has so far limited himself to repeated interpretations of various Wikipedia rules allegedly being violated.

Conclusion: We have a translation of well sourced Russian originals offered by myself, a native speaker of both languages. I would welcome another expert translator's contribution to break the logjam and arrive at a sensible resolution that serves the best interests of Wikipedia readers.--Harald Forkbeard (talk) 23:16, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

False; irrelevant to the complaint. A typical example of the behavior of this editor: dodging the questions. I would love to discuss linguistic issues, but not with disrespectful opponent. -M.Altenmann >t 01:34, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

And here is the typical response from M.Altenmann. Everything is irrelevant if it does not fit in with his particular view. Everything else is met with hostility. I have no idea what 'questions' he is talking about. --Harald Forkbeard (talk) 03:08, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

False accusation, and example of Red herring and dodging the topic of the discussion. The "questions" were repeatedly posted in the article talk page, but answered by Forkbread with insults and claims of their superiority. I can provide diffs, of someone thinks I am a liar. -M.Altenmann >t 04:22, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Altenmann, it appears to me that you are equally if not more at fault in the RfC; other editors are trying to answer your question, report current Wikipedia guidelines, and establish and show consensus, and you are not only not collaborating, you are battling and objecting to nearly each helpful and good-faith comment. Wikipedia discussions, and especially RfCs, are about establishing consensus, not about hearing, or waiting for, the answer you want. You have failed to collaborate or even offer useful alternatives to the translation. In terms of personal attacks, please read Responding to personal attacks. In general, do not acknowledge or respond to perceived personal attacks (no matter what your past history is with the other person), and by all means do not make any of your own. Particularly in RfCs, ignore personal attacks and stick the points at hand that you wish to assess consensus on (if indeed that is your real objective). When a WP:CONSENSUS is reached or is obvious, then recognize that instead of fighting it. Having said all that, I suggest you withdraw this ANI before it WP:BOOMERANGs on you for lack of collaboration, typified by this edit in the RfC threatening another editor with being blocked. Softlavender (talk) 03:44, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

  False accusations:

  • I am not battling anything pertinent to the RfC in question. I am merely noting which comments are answering the question of RfC and which are general comments I promised to address later, after the RfC is finished. What is more important, I am posting no objections. What is more, I deliberately did not state my opinion on the issue. If you see any statement of "battleground mentality" type, please provide a diff. Otherwise all you wrote is a yet another personal attack, poorly suited at this forum.
  • As for my threatening an editor for being blocked, this is outright ridiculous. I have no power to block. It was a fair warning to a user who calls our core policies WP:V, WP:CITE, WP:NPA "obscure rules" and who typed seven pages of insults in my address. Please also notice that I did not request here to block anybody. I request the admins to act how they deem necessary.
  • Lack of collaboration is another false accusation. I can provide diffs of collaboration with people who discuss the essence of the RfC rather than my personality traits.
  • On a final note, telling me to ignore insults I find outrageous. Nevertheless I did ignore them, to a point when it became a disruption. How you want me to build a "consensus" with a person who repeatedly declares themselves an expert and for whom I am a moron who does not know languages and poetry and a nuisance stuck to "obscure rules"? -M.Altenmann >t 04:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
  • re: "stick the points at hand that you wish to assess consensus on (if indeed that is your real objective)" - a yet another uncalled-for insult. That's exactly what I was doing: marking the comments which stick to the point of RfC with me making no objections. My sole objection is the way how Forkbread is smearing me in shit. -M.Altenmann >t 04:28, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Per WP:BOOMERANG, any time you file a complaint on a noticeboard, your behavior can and probably will be examined as well. As anyone looking at the talk page of Mat (Russian profanity) can tell, on that entire talk page you are the one being obstructive and non-cooperative, and not listening. The simple fact of the matter is that Wikipedia editors are allowed to provide translations if no suitable published or online ones are available. Attribution can be in the edit summary or on the article's talk page. If you object to a translation, find a better one (assuming it is reliable) and cite/link it, or suggest alternative wording and seek consensus for the alternative wording. It's that simple. Again, I recommend withdrawing this complaint, dropping the stick with the editor who made the translation, ceasing the obstructionism and obscure wikilawyering, and moving on. Softlavender (talk) 05:03, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

A yet another false interpretation of what was going in the talk page.

• Please provide diffs that demonstrate what exactly was an obstruction on my part. Otherwise please drop your boomerang and stop spreading falsehoods about my position.
• By the way, please explain how "obscure wikilawyering", if any, is a license for numerous insults.
• Also, since you are teaching me how to live, please explain, with diffs, where I insisted that wikipedians' translations should be disallowed.
• And by the way, I did provide an alternative translation, in the talk page, but self-declared expert claims that his one is better. Since I was not going to start a contest whose wikipedian's penis is longer, I filed a RfC to set ground rules for this kind of discussion. I insist that there was some kind of consensus growing (I can easily prvide diffs), but the discussion was repeatedly derailed by insults from the O.P., hence this complaint here. -M.Altenmann >t 07:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Boomerang block for Altenmann

Propose boomerang block for Altenmann for disruptive editing, battleground mentality, mind games, general combativeness, and obscure pettifoggery, all on Talk:Mat (Russian profanity), from the top to the bottom. The ongoing and completely unnecessary dispute is wasting everyone's time. Softlavender (talk) 07:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proposer, since even after the situation was simplified above the user still won't drop the stick or propose a solution to the translation he apparently objects to. Length of block to be determined by community consensus or reviewing admin. Softlavender (talk) 07:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Another false accusation. Since filing this complaint I did not write a single word in Talk:Mat (Russian profanity);
    • P.S. Sorry, I was wrong; I did post [one comment]. It does start with the phrase "Sorry, you are mistaken". So you can judge my "battleground mentality" for yourself from the "primary source", so to say. -M.Altenmann >t 08:36, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
  • and if user Forkbeard gets a free license with insults, I hereby declare that I will take this article off my watch list altogether, since it will indeed waste of my time: In my plans there are at least 159 articles to create this year. -M.Altenmann >t 08:17, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

So far, M.Altenmann is the only editor who has resorted to profanities, accusations, and exhibited utter disregard for other editors' opinions. The only way to reach a consensus with M.Altenmann is to agree with everything he demands. There does not appear to be room for a different opinion as long as M.Altenmann is around. --Harald Forkbeard (talk) 14:18, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Repetition of false general accusation, see section #Evidence, please. -M.Altenmann >t 16:58, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Right, i have to agree with Altenmann, i am not aware of profanities at all being used, and although there was disagreement and edit-warring to start, we should see that as following from opinions strongly held. Since then Altenmann has facilitated there being a rational, polite discussion and is clearly offended (legitimately) by too-strong, too-harsh language. "Mat" itself is about being offensive, deliberately, let's not follow that tone. --doncram 04:38, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Altenmann clearly was genuinely disturbed by tone and wording at the Talk:Mat page, and has done nothing wrong by bringing up the matter here. I personally hate wp:ANI as it usually seems destructive of all participants, so I would have wanted to avoid this, but, seriously there is no call for hammering Altenmann. Altenmann is right to call for diffs, too, but I hope we could dispense with that too, and others than Altenmann just cool off and back away, in my opinion. I will rethink my own role in this, too. I agreed with H F's views and disagreed with A's views about the content, to start with, and said so, and acted offended myself maybe over-doing it a little. And Altenmann is NOT wrong that there should be some line, some way to discern what is acceptable translation or not, and the RFC which Altenmann helpfully started is providing guidance (i think towards consensus that we just have to create alternative translations and discuss which is better and why). --doncram 04:38, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Ban Lavender from this discussion

Throwing wild accusations without proof and at the same time denying the right to defend oneself against accusations is a grave violation of WP:AGF and WP:NPA. -M.Altenmann >t 08:11, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

A simple proof that Lavender's accusations are bullshit:

• Here I readily admit that my understanding was mistaken, after an argument was given rather than generic rant that I no understand nothing. I did it without bickering, and no hard feelings, but the latter is hard to prove to those who lack basic AGF.
• Here, folowing the admitted mistake and the suggestions made, I announced an intention to present my actual (i.e. without wikilawyering) arguments in talk page why the translation was wrong, but while I was preparing them, in 5 minutes I was reverted. While I see tag removal without addressing the concern as violation of policies, I let it go without a mum. -M.Altenmann >t 10:12, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

If one needs more, I can give you more. -M.Altenmann >t 10:12, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Evidence, please

I am getting tired of reading accusations without specific diffs demonstrating the alleged misbehavior. (for those who have provided such diffs, this comment is not for you -- instead you have my thanks.) May we have less heat and more light, please? --Guy Macon (talk) 10:17, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

You are welcome to read (or skim) through Talk:Mat (Russian profanity), which I posted in my proposal. It's not long, and the evidence is there from the second line, and is all conversation- (response-) linked, so it requires reading the conversations. Altenmann has posted 30 such non-collaborative posts; I am not going to link them all, and I'm not going to post only some of them. To me this is all pretty obvious; others may disagree and that's fine, that's what the poll is for. Softlavender (talk) 10:38, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I would second this. Guy Macon, you have all the facts you need in the Mat article history and Talk comments. Besides, there is plenty of demonstrated actions on the part of Altenmann in this discussion. Observe profanities, combativeness, and persistence to get his way, no matter what other editors suggest. Seems pretty clear to me. --Harald Forkbeard (talk) 14:07, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

False general accusation. I always consider merits of the objection and I have no troubles with admitting mistakes whatsoever. -M.Altenmann >t 16:10, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

another recent example that I have no troubles with quickly reaching agreement when presented with meaningful arguments. -M.Altenmann >t 16:41, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

The above is a good example. M.Altenmann claiming that he has no troubles with admitting mistakes is of little value to ANI, but M.Altenmann claiming that he has no troubles with admitting mistakes with a recent diff showing a specific example of him doing that transforms it from a claim to a claim with evidence to back it up. Likewise, because Softlavender and Harald Forkbeard refuse to provide diffs showing examples of the behavior that they claim occurred, the default assumption is that they can't provide diffs because what they described never happened. Certainly no Wikipedia administrator is going to sanction anyone without evidence, The English Wikipedia has 47,405,205 registered users, 121,501 active editors, and 859 administrators. Together we have made 1,219,297,082 edits, created 60,671,945 pages of all kinds and created 6,824,095 articles. Given the large number of users, pages, and edits and the small number of administrators, it is unreasonable to ask an admiistrator to go looking for evidence. You really need to post your evidence on ANI. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:29, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

The evidence has been provided, twice -- once in the proposal, and a second time at your request. Your lack of examination of the evidence is your own choice. Anyone interested in the evidence provided can click the link provided. Softlavender (talk) 16:41, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, I think this case is not a very easy one. Harald Forkbeard has been impolite to M.Altenmann and has probably used stronger language than he should have. M.Altenmann (except for his edits and edit summaries of which I provided the diffs above) has been (in my view) somewhat more cunning in his edits staying just shy of specific clear violations of policies (It might constitute Wikipedia:Wikilawyering). However, much of the impolite responses of Harald Forkbeard appear to be provoked by M.Altenmann if you read through the talk on the MAT talk page, and I can even imagine that Harald Forkbeard feels himself the victim of trolling by M.Altenmann [227] (which is of course no excuse for impoliteness). While staying within the letter of many policies, M.Altenmann at no time has shown adherence to the core spirit of the Wikipedia project - i.e. collaboration to come to a best possible article - as he has not made any effort to come up with a (n alternative) translation that can carry consensus. In my view unilateral sanctions aimed at Harald Forkbeard therefore seem in any case unfair. Arnoutf (talk) 17:00, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• False accusation. I have already provided a diff where I clearly admitted my misunderstanding, after being present with a respectful argument. I didn't pay attencion whose comments I was answering and when, but browsing thru my diffs I noticed that I paid my respects even to User:Arnoutf's opinions, so accusations of trolling and wikilawyering are quite surprizing. -M.Altenmann >t 17:45, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

What is more; I checked and now see it was exactly Arnoutf blocked my intention to start a discussion about correct translation (acting upon my recognition of my misunderstanding):

• 03:33, August 1, 2015‎ Arnoutf (talk | contribs)‎ . . (17,438 bytes) (-52)‎ . . (Reverted 1 edit by Altenmann (talk): Please dont add such templates while RfC on talk is ongoing (on your own invitation).

...and now I am blamed for not doing this. -M.Altenmann >t 17:51, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• re: he has not made any effort to come up with a (n alternative) translation - False accusation. An alternative translation was presented (in the talk page; without reverting in the article text), but dismissed, the argument being insults to my knowledge of languages and claims of expertic superiority, rather than comparing merits of the text. This is exactly why I temporarily discontinued the discussion in talk page and filed this complaint: I see that the discussion is being derailed by personal attacks of the O.P. -M.Altenmann >t 18:00, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Re "The evidence has been provided, twice", I didn't ask for what Softlavender considers to be evidence (a link to a page and a demand that the reader find the alleged evidence somewhere on the page). I asked for specific diffs showing the behavior. No diff = no evidence. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:11, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Guy, I realize that you would prefer diffs, but I explained why diffs would be actually inappropriate here: I would be posting 30 diffs (and also 20 or so more diffs from the other participants in the discussions by way of explanation). Much easier for people to just read the page -- it's very easy to read. There is no policy that evidence must only be in individual diffs. I provided the link to the evidence; it is up to individuals reading this ANI whether they want to click the link or not. There is no need to "find the alleged evidence somewhere on the page"; the evidence is there from the very beginning, and there is nothing whatsoever unrelated on the page (the talk page was fully archived before any of the current discussions involving Altenmann were begun). This is easy to see if the link is clicked. I will provide it again here: Talk:Mat (Russian profanity). Softlavender (talk) 02:57, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

You are being uncooperative -- not a good thing if you want ANI to take action against another editor. You don't have to post "30 diffs". Just pick one or two that show the behavior that you claim occurred. At this point I am completely convinced that you refuse to post any diffs because they do not exist. Feel free to prove me wrong by posting some actual evidence in the form of diffs that backs up your claims. It would seem to be an easy task to respond to one or two of M.Altenmann's "false accusation" posts with a diff or two that show that the accusation is true. The repeated refusal to do that by you (Softlavender) and Harald Forkbeard leads me to the inevitable conclusion that they probably are false accusations. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:40, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Diffs

Let me just provide the diffs so that the discussion can move on:(User:Harald Forkbeard) It started like this:[228] and continued, [229] and the tone gets rough, it continues with this,escalates to this and that.

Meanwhile:(User:M.Altenmann) started with explaining policies, continued with presenting a machine translation and proposing changing that and putting it into the article. Then these comments... at least "No references - bite the bullet" isn't really nice and puts oil into the fire. It keeps being ok for some comments and then M.Altenmann asks Harald to answer his questions directly. After opening a rfc about that, these edits already threaten the user with being blocked, note that he says "[...] if you continue with your personal attacks, you will be blocked from editing for disruption" in the last diff. These edits follow, telling us that the translation isn't correct but not why, which other editors answered([230];[231];[232])This followed, with demands that the other users should answer his question in the RFC and not say anything else. Then, he states that he will ask an admin to ban Harald if he continues to do personal attacks. Then he again that the editors should do what he wanted when he opened the RFC , and because of that, Arnoutf leaves the debate.

--Müdigkeit (talk) 13:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• "No references - bite the bullet" not nice phrasing but is not an attack on opponents skills or personality. Moreover, phrased in the context of explanation of a policy about citing sources, hot being addressed personally. -M.Altenmann >t 15:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I admit I am not an expert in English and it occurred to me to double-check with a dictionary. And now I am highly surprised how an Earth an advice to endure an unpleasant situation is an insult. - user:Altenmann >t 03:02, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Altenmann, hadn't it occured to you that you should offer the same courtesy that you request? Harald Forkbeard's comments [233][234] were not insults but rather his personal opinion on your behavior and "advice to endure an unpleasant situation", very much like yours; yet you decided that those comments were personal attacks[235] and warned him that you would try to get him blocked [236] (which you eventually did, by bringing this to ANI).

It occurs to me that you think that your behavior in this incident has been neutral and detached (you described it as us having "a meaningful, calm, nonpersonal discussion", which is nowhere near how the other editors have perceived it). Thus you are unaware of how your own comments come through to others as aggressive, and of how you have inadvertently contributed to escalate the confrontation (among other things by stating "Forkbeard obvioulsy has an acute grudge against me", which is a severe failure to asume good faith, and by starting this ANI request -which is an extremely severe measure to take- over a disagreement with the interpretation of policy).

A warning by the administrator, as suggested in the proposal below, should be a call for you to reflect on how you have approached this discussion. I encourage you to try to deescalate the tension, starting now, by focusing on discussion over the content rather than responding to every comment that includes a trace of negativity. Diego (talk) 09:20, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Preaching to the choir, colleague. My remark was impersonal advice regarding policies. It is not the first time I meet with people who get all pissed off with the slightest mention the fact that they, when joining a community, must follow its rules. They feel this somehow encroaches on their freedoms. This point of view is quite widespread, has its merits, but very difficult to agree with, especially when this point of view is accompanied by an outburst of a heated attack on the opponent using whatever artillery they have at hand. Most commonly it is blind rage, because logic will not support them. You are telling me that my impersonal reminder of policies is somehow on par with diatribes from your own diff :"You are acting in a disruptive, belligerent manner showing no respect to the opinions of other editors. You have so far failed to add anything other than rote quotes from so-called rules that you interpret to suit your hostile attitude." Please find texts better that that to support your point. - user:Altenmann >t 15:13, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

re: which you eventually did, by bringing this to ANI. - False accusation based on your faulty understanding of ANI. ANI is not a "Block dispenser" I know this, some don't. Therefore I phrase my request without teaching admin how to do their job. Moreover I repeatedly stated that I do not seek blocking Forkbeard. Sadly, your attitude serves to reinforcing incivility, as evidenced by the continued behavior of Forkbread, who came here not to say "sorry", but to further spread falsehoods about the opponent: "He has consistently failed to offer any alternative to my good faith translation" - false ;"profanities, combativeness, and persistence to get his way, no matter what other editors suggest." - false, and so on. And now you are with straight face telling me about " a severe failure to asume good faith,"? - user:Altenmann >t 15:32, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

You still fail to recognize any problem in your behavior and think of yourself as a paragon of calm detachment; which is a problem, because expressions of yours like "strike three"[237], "<sigh>"[238], "you're not helpful"[239], [you're making] "false accusations"[240], "you obviously ignored to read" [the policy/guideline][241], bolded remarks like "I was not asking about your translation"[242], and calling every other comment about your behavior a "personal attack" [243] or an "insult"[244] don't come out as the neutral, objective, impersonal reminders you want them to be, in special when aggregated over an already heated disagreement. And yes, I say that your description of Forkbeard's behavior as "obvioulsy has an acute grudge against me" is a failure to assume good faith, double so when you provide it as the rationale for an ANI intervention, where a block of the targeted user is a very real possibility (you didn't ask for it, but you didn't ask for it to no be applied either; had you included a simple "I am not suggesting that Forkbeard be blocked" would have put this whole request in a different light; though if you're not pursuing that he be banned from the thread - the only result that would require administrative action-, it raises the question of why you have filled this request at all). Diego (talk) 16:02, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• Please explain why "strike three" is a personal attack against somebody. - user:Altenmann >t 02:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
• Please explain how [you're making] "false accusations" , accompanied with proof they are false is a personal attack - user:Altenmann >t 02:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
• Please explain how the statement and calling every other comment about your behavior a "personal attack" [245] is supported by your diff. - user:Altenmann >t 02:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
• Once again, what's wrong with asking for administrative actions to deter disruptive behavior? - user:Altenmann >t 02:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
• re "you <...> think of yourself as a paragon of calm detachment" - What I think of myself even my wife does not know. But I do work hard on my calm detachment, how did you guess this?. - user:Altenmann >t 03:17, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• "Threaten user with being blocked" - Not an attack. In wikipedia we don't "threaten". We warn, when a wikipedian continues an inappropriate behavior. History of wikipedia shows if I were a buddy of an admin, Forkbread would have been blocked 52 hours ago already. I did not run crybaby to admins right away, I tolerated the insults for two days. -M.Altenmann >t 15:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• " with demands that the other users should answer his question in the RFC and not say anything else. " - False accusation. The diff provided in one part actually says. "Sorry I was wrong" and in 2nd and 3rd part I ask not to second-guess my ulterior motives, just answer my questions. I also remark that I understand that our policies are not cast in stone. How this is interpreted to be a hostility, beats my brains out of my head. -M.Altenmann >t 15:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• "again that the editors should do what he wanted when he opened the RFC ". False accusation. In this diff I don't demand anything at all. Moreover, I write that I will address all other questions (irrelevant to RfC) in a separate talk. -M.Altenmann >t 15:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• re: arnouf leaves the discussion . How is that an accusation against me? Arnouf writes: " I have given my comment on request. Do with it what you think best." - And in my previous comments I have already explained that I will do that, only later. Notice that unlike my opponents I did not respond to this like: "Arnouf accepts only what he wants to hear. He did not get what he wanted, now he slams the door". -M.Altenmann >t 15:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Yikes to all of this. I was trying to help at Talk:Mat and am afraid I did not. I should have spoken up for Altenmann there by now, where they were getting a hard time overall yet they were following a process with integrity, IMO. Altenmann set up the RFC process which is constructive and they are accepting that, trying to follow a rational process, which probably next would be to discuss specific alternatives. I did not know what would be said in the RFC and I think it is turning out differently than what Altenmann expected or sought, also, but Altenmann and I and others should follow this process out, as A and I at least are willing to do. And, in the process, be polite. H F was "right" in my opinion that his translation should be accepted, at least for now, and that is the emerging consensus of the RFC i think. Neither H F nor Altenmann were "right" in the early back-and-forth; both were trying to force their way (as did i, i guess, too). But the edit-warring ceased and RFC process was started, and it is working, and H F could be said to be "winning" in the emerging consensus of the RFC. But mainly there is no call for the harsh language and accusations, and at this point it feels to me that Altenmann is unfairly being attacked too much.

I've said elsewhere about bullying in Wikipedia (which I think is the worst thing about Wikipedia), that if someone feels they are being bullied they probably are, and their experience is genuine, and anyone observing that should jolly well back off and avoid furthering that experience, or better yet help them out in some way. This hasn't been bullying, but the same goes for too-harsh statements being taken as offensive. That is real. I would hope everyone involved could see their way to apologizing for something, and to acknowledging that all others have had some legitimate views or whatever, too. I am sorry that I helped raise the temperature at the Talk page, myself, when I was irked at one point. But I wasn't hurt personally, and I have to respect the RFC process which was opened sensibly and which is overall fine (except for bursts of too strong stuff). I'll stop after one plea.

To Altenmann and to Harald Forkman: I don't know what your previous experience has been, but coming to ANI is usually awful IMO, and it does NOT provide reasonable interventions. Note, an ANI discussion does not have to end with a judgement one way or the other...it can be allowed to just fade away, if all would back away and say a milder thing or two and then not say anything more. I will watch here and may well comment more here, but overall I hope we could all back away from ANI, that is probably the most important thing now, IMO. --doncram 04:59, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Wise wordsdoncram. It is probably best to move away from this ANI. IMO neither party is free from blame, but neither party appears to intend to damage the project either. Cooling off for a while (e.g. by agreeing not to edit the article for a week by either party) and subsequently trying to find consensus for a translation would probably be best. Arnoutf (talk) 12:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

That's sorry, disagreed. My purpose was asking admins to intervene. I did not ask no block anybody to get an upper hand. All I wanted is somebody with authority to explain Forkbrad that his way of carrying out the discussion is not permitted. And somehow this discussion discussion is derailed again. And I will probably be accused of "Pushing hard until I get what I want". What a hypocrisy. All what I ever wanted is for discussion is get focused on the issue at hand. -M.Altenmann >t 14:24, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

This is not what this page is for, and I find troublesome that you'd think bringing editors over here for such reason was a good idea. ANIs are filed when whe have a need of the special powers granted to administrators by the community which are outside the reach of normal editors, such as enforcement of topic bans or outright blocks. We are supposed to be grown-ups who take responsibility for our own actions (Wikipedia has been described as a practical experiment in anarchy, after all; we don't to require the service of admins other than as arbiters, not rulers or judges). Warnings to troublesome editors only happen when it is determined that such special tools are not needed, and therefore it's not a case requiring those special tools - therefore, the same result could happen elsewhere without the intervention of an administrator; because such decision to issue a warning is the outcome of a consensus by community participants, not of any special role of authority held by the admins. If you want to discuss an editor's behavior, the informal Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard or a request for mediation would have been a much less heavyweight way to request commentary on a users' conduct than this aggressive move to the noticeboard for "Incidents requiring administrators intervention". Diego (talk) 16:22, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

You are entitled to your opinion. In my book DRN and RfM are for content dispute. The content dispute in question was on its successful way in the article talk page. You seem to quickly forget that I expressed an agreement with your argument, admitted my mistake, and all was about to be amicably closed by smoothing the details but for incessant personal attacks of a single editor. - user:Altenmann >t 02:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• I just went through all of the diffs provided and found no evidence of M.Altenmann violating any policy or guideline. All I saw is a content dispute, and ANI does not deal with content disputes. See WP:DRR for a guide on where to take content disputes.

If anyone thinks I missed something (which certainly is possible) please provide a specific diff of a comment by M.Altenmann that violates a policy or guideline, and tell us what the policy is. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Evidence provided, and now?

Now that I have provided lots of evidence( see here), what now? User:M.Altenmann has, in my opinion(again, see the evidence above), Ownership problems with the RFC he started, has probably heated the discussion with that unnecessary comment here and has threatened admin action, more than once(for diffs, see above), even a ban by an adminstrator in an article (without any general sanctions) once. That's not good. Also, he didn't provide any argument towards possible specific problems with the translation once. Only general accusations. User:Harald Forkbeard has, however, been quite uncivil in this discussion, (again, see my post in the above section).

My personal opinion on Harald Forkbeard is that a strong official warning regarding personal attacks and a similar warning regarding edit wars from the community might be sufficient. --Müdigkeit (talk) 14:44, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the diffs. I am going to analyses them and post my conclusions. More later. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:51, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

re " Ownership problems" Blatantly false accusation. All what I did was I did not comment on remarks outside of the scope of the "RfC", I did not make any negative comments on any remarks made in RfC; I only remarked some comments are outside of scope so I will address them in a separate thread. Moreover, I did admit, twice, that I was wrong and this RfC influenced my position. -M.Altenmann >t 15:14, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposal

I read all this, and Talk:Mat (Russian profanity) too.

The content dispute here is pretty simple.

• Back in March, Harald Forkbeard (a fairly new user) provided a more.. colorful original translation of 2 poems in Russian. (e.g untranslated "khuy" >> "cock"; "'cherry'" (in quotes) >> "pussy")
• On June 27, Altenmann (who is quite experienced) tagged with CN asking "who translated"
• July 27 Harald answered in an in-text hidden editorial comment,

and edit warring broke out at the article and a flaming war, on Talk. I want to point out that Altenmann started in way too hot on Talk with this, writing "NO. I need a third party source which published the translation...." and that from the getgo, Harald was resistant, and here put his stake in the ground; " I still like my rendition better as it captures the original Russian in spirit, not in verbatim word. The judgment call on my poetic license is just that, a matter of personal opinion." and really misses the importance of WP:CONSENSUS especially in matters of judgement, where policy isn't clear.

My view on the content dispute is that it is pretty clear per WP:NONENG that we do not need a source for a translation (a published translation is preferred if available) and that there is ambiguity in the policy over how much license the translator can take. The RfC that Altenmann later started was a great idea but by then Harald was already very antagonized and Altenmann already had let himself go.

behavior-wise - what ANI is for - they both have behaved badly. fwiw, I propose a 24 hour block for both of them per WP:BLOCKDETERRENT, with a warning to each of them to back off the issue in the RfC and to listen to the close; with a particular warning to Altenmann re WP:BITE and not to be so harsh when policy is ambiguous; and a warning to Harald to be more sensitive to WP:CONSENSUS from others when translating artfully. There was no need for all this drama. Jytdog (talk) 16:34, 3 August 2015 (UTC) (fix Altenmann ping and re-sign, sorry for the re-ping Harald Jytdog (talk) 18:34, 3 August 2015 (UTC))

• support as proposer (obviously) Jytdog (talk) 16:34, 3 August 2015 (UTC) (amend to emphasize part about behavior Jytdog (talk) 19:53, 3 August 2015 (UTC))

• • No need as I don't intend to touch this article again. The amount of effort going into this discussion far exceeds the value of contributing to the Mat article. At this rate a number of articles useful for Wikipedia readers could have been written. I am done with this article. --Harald Forkbeard (talk) 18:31, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
  • False interpretation, based on a cherry-picked quotation. The full quote clearly shows that I suggested Forkbread a compromise solution: I clearly gave him an alternative: either give a reference or provide a more faithful translation. So you are saying that a suggestion of a compromise solution is an insult and an excuse for escalation of insults? - user:Altenmann >t 02:14, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

"NO. I need a third party source which published the translation. (Did you bother to read the wikipedia policies after all? But at least you started thinking in the right direction.) Now let me make one step further and explain what is the problem in your case, which is also an advice how to resolve the problem. Normally there is no problems with adding a literal translation, because, after all, we add information from various sources in various languages and the translation is always involved. This is not so in the case of a poetic translation, because it involves a liberal poetic interpretation and modification by a wikipedian, which is a strict no-no in wikipedia; don't even try. Therefore if you want to help the readers to understand a poem, please provide word-by-word translation, accompanied with the text in which the words are placed in the proper syntactic order. This is how it is done in works in linguistics. It is a completely different story if you provide a published translation. Such text usually has its own encyclopedic value and will not be questioned. -M.Altenmann >t 04:14, 28 July 2015 (UTC) "

• • False interpretation of the initial edit as a "minor tweak", hinting that it was not worth the fuss. I had no problems with the previous unreferenced translation for years, and not because it was an exact rendition of the Russian text. The new translation went too far beyond synonym substitution and word order. and distorted the original meaning of the poem. (Of course this does not matter to those who see it as one big obscenity no matter how you translate - a valid point of view, btw.). - user:Altenmann >t 02:47, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
• I support the proposal of minor warnings as a light reminder to remain civil at all times, minus the block; discussion has already cooled down and there's no need for preventive measures.

I also want to thank Harald Forkbeard for the effort in providing the translation. That kind of WP:BOLD contribution is exactly what we should encourage, and these petty scuffles over rule-following do more harm than good to the project. Don't be discouraged by the drama, for every article where a disagreement raises its ugly head, there a dozen more where you can contribute without finding resistance and where your contributions will remain. Diego (talk) 19:20, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

"Petty scuffles over rule-following" happens because people are different and one has to accept this, and don't use it as an excuse for personal attacks, including the phrasing "petty scuffles". I stopped what you call "petty scuffling" exactly at the moment I filed the RfC. My beloved opponents prefer to interpret this as an attempt to push my POV. And how is that it is me who is tagged with "battleground mentality"? I filed the RfC knowing perfectly well that I have no buddies around to flock in and defend. I filed it to find the correct solution, because I don't assume myself absolute expert in anything. I filed it because before any continuation of the discussion of the translation I wanted to establish which arguments will be acceptable. I agree here we meet two polar views. One is "I am an expert, and who are you?" Another is "Wikipedia has rules. You don't like my view of these rules? Let's establish common rules!" If you think this is "petty scuffling", don't take part in it, but don't spread disrespect to fellow editors. - user:Altenmann >t 02:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

If you think that me describing this situation as "petty scuffling" is a personal attack on you, right there you have illustrated the problem of why that discussion has escalated to an ANI report. Diego (talk) 09:28, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

If you think you know what constitutes intorelable (by me) personal attack for me, you are mistaken. As for whether it is an attack, any negative comments not related to article content and directly referring to the O.P. are personal attacks. Please refresh your knowledge WP:NPA, and then we can go point-by point how I stand as for this policy. - user:Altenmann >t 01:57, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Example: when one abuser was calling me "anti-Romanian anti-Semitic Communist vandal" I only chuckled and did not call for no ANI, because it was clearly a rant explainable, e.g., by emotional state or temporary mental disorder. But when a person repeatedly expresses doubts in my aptitude and casts various false accusations as an argument in he discussion', then excuse moi, it may be a "petty scuffle" for a bystander, but for me it is a disruption of the wikipedia work. - user:Altenmann >t 03:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

any negative comments not related to article content and directly referring to the O.P. are personal attacks Oh please, go grow a thicker skin. With that attitude you're going to be a magnet for drama, which is not good for the project. Personal attacks need to be, well, personal; and not every WP:UNCIVIL remark is intended by the originator as a disparaging evaluation of the person. I suggest you take a second look at WP:NPA#WHATIS a personal attack (and in particular to responding to personal attacks, which you pretty much completely failed to follow), because your definition pretty much doesn't cut it. The universe doesn't revolve around you. Diego (talk) 06:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You have no idea how thick my skin grew in 11 years. You are right on the spot that "Personal attacks need to be, well, personal". You are 100% accurate in saying " not every WP:UNCIVIL remark is intended by the originator as a disparaging evaluation of the person". Now please apply this yardstick to the expressions like this: "You have so far failed to add anything other than rote quotes from so-called rules that you interpret to suit your hostile attitude." I read is as a false (provably) statement of fact, evasion of the expressed concerns, plus a negative judgement of my personal qualities and intentions. When stated once in article talk page it may be accepted as an emotional rant. But when the same falsehoods are brought to this board as an argument of innocence, I see it as a severe lack of both civility and common sense. And this is with a good deal of WP:AGF, mind you. When AGF is overstressed, I starts reminding a well-known tactic of throwing random dirt on an opponent non-stop in the hope that something sticks. - üser:Altenmann >t 14:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

P.S. Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard is what you should have used if you wanted more than the request for comment, because it is what were're here for, to write content, not to request judgement of your fellow editors. What you faced there is best solved with a polity reminder to the other editor to focus on content, not behavior, and if that goes wrong, with a decision to stop interacting; i.e., handling the problem as responsible adults. Warning to start an ANI for such a minor incident is a terrible idea, and actually doing it is the way to ensure that things will blow out of all proportion; ANI is for severe incidents of misconduct that require intervention by administrators and experienced editors, which this was not. Diego (talk) 06:17, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry you are mistaken, based on reading my mind and your incorrect understanding of wikipedia policies. I repeatedly explained: in respect of article content I did not want more than the request for comment. The dispute resolution was on its successful track in the article talk page. And yes, we have the full right to request judgement of editors'behavior when felt that it becomes disruptive. Pleas don throw WP:HERE on me. I hate to brag, but my contributions speak for themselves what I am here for. Finally, please let the admins judge what is minor incident, and what is a pattern of disruptive behavior (Comrade Wolf knows whom to eat :-). - üser:Altenmann >t 14:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• It's a scuffle but no one has yet provided a source as to the original Russian poem. I've tried to remove it until someone first provides that and then we can argue about the translation from there. Ideally we want (a) reliable secondary source translating the poem and then (b) a primary source in Russian discussing the word within that poem but instead we have (c) no source as to the Russian poem, no source to the translation (or why there's three columns and thus two translations or something), no source that the 1834 meaning of the word is even relevant today and so on. BOLD contributions are fine but the editors still need to provide the evidence to support their content. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:17, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Ricky81682

The admin Ricky81682 has destroyed the content at the mat page. You can see on the talk page that he repeatedly deletes content without discussion and disrupts everyone's work on the article. He's removed all the variations and keeps on threatening User:doncram for trying to save the content. He shouldn't be allowed near the article anymore. A warning is needed for him as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.171.121.182 (talk) 22:59, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

This is clearly a regular editor hiding their identity by using an IP, as can be seen by their contrib list and their knowledge of Wikipedia processes. Their comments should be ignored until they are posted under their normal account. BMK (talk) 23:46, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

no, I am one who fears retaliation. I do not use a name so I can avoid the stranglehold from the powers that be. Admins like Ricky must serve as a warning to everyone that it is content creators who matter not janitors who threaten and attack everyone who disagrees with them. We need more people like doncram who won't kneel down below the claims of "verification" when the people say that they would rather have the content than lose it. The burden needs to change so that people aren't attacked anymore by drive-by haters.

• Comment There's a 3RR report against me for disputing this disruption so I'm going to take a voluntary withdrawal from the article. Classic thanks for finding an actual translation to try to resolve the issue behind the whole RFC issue. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

you deserve an admonishment and a ban. You have no right to attack others. No one should have to prove anything to you.

(EC) Well, I just opened a wp:3RRNB report about editor Ricky81682 which is where I suggest this current problem be discussed. It is separable from this ANI discussion about two other editors. Ricky81682 joined into the ANI and Talk page discussions, unfortunately following the poor behavior of multiple removals without real discussion, against emerging consensus. I didn't know they were an administrator, are they? If so, this is exceedingly poor. I opened the 3RR because of their repeated deletions of material, ignoring the BRD cycle process, and actually exceeding 3RR by a 4th reversion removing others' material. It doesn't matter who the I.P. editor is; the behavior is raised as a problem by me, at 3RR. In response to Ricky81682's comment in edit conflict, I do note at the 3RR that they seem to have begun some constructive edits, finding a source or two, but this is too late, too little in my view. This is only after they violated 4RR and showed their way of forcing deletion. If they sincerely wish to contribute and not battle, I suggest they offer at the 3RR to agree to restoration of the disputed material and to back off for a period, entirely. I do think this edit-warring behavior of Ricky81682 does not need to be discussed here, which was/is about others' previous behavior. --doncram 00:50, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

not good enough. His edits Should be removed and he should be banned. His antics are not appropriate at all. bRD is clear, once it was added it stays until someone proves that it's wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.171.121.182 (talk) 00:54, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Fine. Here, I restored the bullet list of unsourced Russian cursing. I already provided a link to a Russian-English idiom dictionary and can't find any references supporting them and I'll let it go. As to banning or whatever, I'll let everyone decide. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:02, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

And your admin buddy just saved your ass on the 3RR. Admins should be held to a higher standard — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.170.47.61 (talk) 01:24, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Proposal to Desysop

Desysop Ricky81682 now. It's clear he has none of the attributes required to be an administrator. He should not be disparaging and attacking everyone working at Mat. His misuse of his tools demands swift and immediate retaliation. The world must know that Wikipedia is a place for all people not for the cabal. A block isn't good enough, a ban isn't enogh, administrators must be publicly humiliated as a warning to others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.171.121.182 (talk) 01:13, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• Rejected, and IP blocked for trolling. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

The cabal has spoken. Can anyone give me a good reason why he shouldn't be punished the same as anyone else would be? All he offers is that he can't find a source, that's not good enough. People provide him sources all the time and he destroys them. How isn't it fair for him to have to respond in kind? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.170.47.61 (talk) 01:21, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Didn't I just block you? The Cabal 01:25, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

No. You blocked another IP address in the block. He is shape-shifting and needs range-blocking. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Shape shifting? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.170.48.8 (talk) 17:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose, fwiw. The shape shifters have not provided any compelling evidence at all of admin abuse. I don't think Ricky used the tools at all here. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:48, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I didn't even threaten to use the tools. I specifically said I'd file a report to ANI as I knew I was an involved administrator and it would be an obvious misuse. I believe the editor stated that they weren't even aware I was an admin (which used to be considered a good thing lol). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:54, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I promised myself I wouldn't engage any further. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Admins aren't a better class of people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.171.122.101 (talk) 01:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal to close the thread

I filed the complaint based on a mistaken assumption that this was a new user, who acquired the manners in various internet boards where people routinely go to each other's throats. And I wanted some authority to explain him his wrong ways. Now, after going through his contributions, I came to an opinion that this account is a sock, therefore there is little sense to teach him manners. Since there are much more serious dramas for admins to handle I suggest to close this thread as withdrawn. - üser:Altenmann >t 14:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Checklinks making changes outside of its scope

I and and other users have found the Checklinks to be executing changes outside of intended scope, as seen for instance here. The tool is intended to purely check whether the links in an article and to allow us to add archived links to links which turn out to be dead. In reality, it also changes table formatting. Now I have no problem with someone making a tool or bot to replace deprecated markup like align= in tables but that is not the intend of this link repairing tool. Moreover not all the coding changes it has been programmed are good. For instance in the edit I referred to, every instance of data-sort-value=".." was changed to data-sort- value="..", for no good reason, messing it up and rendering it non functional. I feel that any change of formatting should be removed from this tools functionality and it should only check and "repair" links. This has been raised many times over the years with Dispenser, who created and maintains this tool, (as seen here, here and here) but they either declined to respond or responded that the changes were fine because they replaced deprecated markup and in any case decline to make any change to the tool. And it turns out Dispenser's Reflinks has the same behavior. Tvx1 16:13, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Uncheck "apply common fixes" when you use the tool. KonveyorBelt 20:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I took me a while to find out how, but it worked. Thanks, Tvx1 18:16, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Unhelpful IP edits

User 151.227.129.136 is constantly edit-warring and adding unhelpful edits to articles. S/he seems to think no one else can edit certain articles, even if the other person is clearly trying to improve it. Please consider a warning or blocking this user. --TBM10 (talk) 21:16, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok I apologise for some of my actions, but the things I mostly disagreed on was the fact you was removing a large amount of information that was kept in the route boxes the route boxes have always showing their combinations but your removing a large proportion of it thats what I'm not happy about, and I am not showing every iteration of the timetable because I'm only showing some iterations but there's nothing wrong with that, after all this is normal wikipedia so the pages and route boxes are ment to show more information, its not simple wikipedia, also on Witham station why did you chose a photo from 1979, can we chose the more up to date photo from 2013 please? --151.227.129.136 (User talk:151.227.129.136) 22:14, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways#Routeboxes, June 2015 - same problem, different people. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:33, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

@151.227.129.136: picture quality is the overriding consideration in image selection. Date is a secondary factor. Mjroots (talk) 21:24, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Long-term disruption from the Chipmunks vandal

A long-term vandal is back at it again, adding trivial details about fictional bands covering songs. He's been blocked many times before; see Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Chipmunks vandal. The recently active IP, Special:Contributions/24.207.192.64, has resumed doing the same exact stuff after a 48-hour block. He adds Muppets, Chipmunks, Chipettes and Glee cover versions.[246][247][248]

It would be mighty nice if someone could block him for a year, the same block dealt out to previous IPs he used. Binksternet (talk) 04:20, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring - female footballers

• MbahGondrong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Målfarlig! (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The above users are involved in a protracted edit war over the use of infobox references in a number of football articles, including Fabiana da Silva Simões (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Luciana Maria Dionizio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Andressa Alves da Silva (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). The users were previously involved in an edit war at Nadine Angerer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (which led to a three-day protection here) however the battleground moved elsewhere.

Despite a number of discussions including Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 96#Brazilian Women.27s International Goals and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 96#WP:INFOBOXREF, the constant reverting has continued.Hack (talk) 04:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:Oncenawhile

• Oncenawhile (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Oncenawhile has been engaged in persistent disruptive editing regarding the southern levant. Recently, he removed the southern levant category from a multitude of pages, seemingly arbitrarily and for no meaningful reason as far as I can see. Diffs are 21:20, 13 July 2015, 21:20, 13 July 201521:20, 13 July 201521:20, 13 July 201521:21, 13 July 201521:21, 13 July 2015 21:21, 13 July 201521:21, 13 July 201521:24, 13 July 201521:25, 13 July 2015 21:25, 13 July 201521:25, 13 July 2015 21:26, 13 July 201521:27, 13 July 201521:28, 13 July 201521:28, 13 July 201521:28, 13 July 201521:29, 13 July 201521:29, 13 July 201521:29, 13 July 201521:29, 13 July 201521:30, 13 July 201522:26, 15 July 201522:27, 15 July 201522:27, 15 July 201522:28, 15 July 201522:29, 15 July 2015 These edits were made seconds apart from one another, which seems to indicate it was a calculated action.

Additionally, he's been removing references to the southern levant in articles. For example, here he replaces all references to "southern levant" with "the region". It's curious that he didn't remove the phrase "south levant", which leads me to speculate that he was simply doing a find and replace for "southern levant" with "the region". It's worth pointing out that these changes weren't mentioned in his edit description. He also made an incorrect edit that reduced the size of the southern levant in the lead of both the main page and the category, in conflict with reliable sources, here. On the category page, he also removed a helpful and relevant image here

He's repeatedly been removing references to the southern levant and taking steps to make the existing articles less helpful. It's extremely disruptive and I hope something can be done about it. Drsmoo (talk) 09:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Ask and you shall receive. The category amendments were almost all labelled in the edit comment, and are in line with my view that, for many articles, this is a wholly unnecessary category listing given that we have other categories for similar but much better defined and more commonly used regional descriptions. Your dozens of reverts across many articles without a single attempt to discuss is unfortunately aggressive behaviour.

On the Southern Levant article and category itself, your are wrong and the map is inaccurate (or at least, highly imprecise). Let's discuss on the relevant talk pages.

Oncenawhile (talk) 16:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

That is incorrect, your personal view of "Southern Levant" is completely irrelevant to wikipedia editing and an example of Wikipedia:I just don't like it. Your personal opinions do not permit you to make sweeping edits of dozens of references to a regional description you happen to not like. You were not involved with the articles you removed the categories from, you found them because they referenced a regional description you dislike and removed them, that is disruptive editing. Additionally, removing the word "southern levant" from an article about "Nonferrous Archaeometallurgy in the Southern Levant" and replacing them with "the region" gives away that this has nothing to do with using "more specific" (in your own words) terminology.

Your statement that the map used in the Southern Levant article is inaccurate is also incorrect, as is your uncited description of the physical location of the region. I apprecite the fact that you stated/admitted the edits are based on your personal opinion that it is a bad regional description. Unfortunately your personal opinion does not override the conclusions of archaeologists and scholars, and your personal opinions do not permit making 30 or so edits within a span of seconds to remove references to a region. Drsmoo (talk) 17:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I acknowledge that you do not agree, and you are entitled to your opinion. However, you failed to WP:AGF, causing unnecessary angst. I look forward to discussing on the relevant pages. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:22, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

This topic area is very sensitive for obvious reasons and widespread use of HotCat like this is at least subject to enhanced scrutiny.

I left the current ArbPIA alert for the record, but this can be closed if the two of you can discuss constructively in talk. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:01, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Topic Ban violation by User:TripWire

TripWire was topic banned by Future Perfect at Sunrise for 6 Months from all edits related to Pakistani politics and Indian/Pakistani conflicts, for a period of 6 months.

His block still exists. Still he violates ban and defend himself with comments like this

1, 2, 3, 4, 5.112.79.39.220 (talk) 11:56, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

First Sir, have the courage to use your actual ID to report me. I dont think, a sock should be allowed to report registered users. Anyways, I have explained this earlier and will try it again; my topic ban relates to Pakistani politics and Indian/Pakistani conflicts. Now, I dont understand how does editing a page regarding a terrorist organization Lashkar-e-Taiba falls under Pakistani politics and how does a terror attack in India 2015 Gurdaspur attack which (initially) had nothing to do with Pakistan has to do with Indo-Pak conflict? From what I understand is banned from Indo-Pak Conflicts means is that I cannot edit articles like Siachen Conflict, Kargil Conflict, 1965 Indo-Pak War etc where actual war/conflict is taking place.

The edit I made at Gurdaspur Attack was 'As per MHA sources, 2 x GPS, 3 x AK-47, 10 x magazines and 2 x China-made grenades were recovered from the terrorists' i.e. added just the basic info which was non-controversial. I was reported to Admin FPAS talk page by showing only one edit to made it look like as if I am doing something wrong. FPAS being busy responded quickly without actually confirming that I was violating my topic ban as he did not review the entire issue as he was committed elsewhere. Resultantly, I asked him a simple question:

So what you want to say is that in future ANY terrorist attack on Indian soil (which is condemnable), even like that carried out in Manipur by rebels in Mayanmar, will automatically fall within the scope of Indo-Pak conflict, because it ultimately will end up being supposedly supported by some terror group linked to Pakistan? This sir is a huge statement. Since when did Admins at Wikipedia have started speaking the language of Indian External Affairs Ministry?

As FPAS is still busy, he hasnt responded to the comment. So, I ask here again, will any future terror attack taking place in India be taken as a conflict between India and Pakistan? Or may be till the time India does not accuse Pakistan for orchestrating the attack, I could edit the page as till then it would not have become a conflict between the two countries, because the time between a terror attack in India and India accusing Pakistan for the same is with hours? Please explain? If it is the former, so what editors at Wikipedia want to say is that even before pakistan's hand is established behind an attack, all terror attacks in India will by default be assumed to be supported by Pakistan and thus by this definition, all such pages will fall under the purview of Indo-Pak Conflict, and thus within my topic-ban?

As for LeT, how does a page related to a terror org, like LeT, like the LTTE in Sri Lanka, ISIS in Yemen, Sikh Seperatists and numerous others in India etc are all linked to the politics of the respective countries. I am confused and seek advice. If I am told and clarified by the respected Admins that by the edits being quoted against me, I was infact violating by ban, I'll happily admit to my mistake as I did not consider doing so was wrong, and will refrain from such edits in future. Thanks.

Lastly, or the Indian socks and tag-teamers who wants to show that I cant live with my topic ban, my edit history, post my topic ban begs to disagree:

• Territorial claims in the Arctic
• My Trip Back to the Dark Side (film)
• Kim Yo-jong
• Chappie (film)
• Frequencies (film)
• Sabeen Mahmud
• Benjamin Sisters
• Javed Iqbal Ramday
• Central Superior Services of Pakistan—TripWire ^talk 12:21, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: This needs admins attention. This user has been blatantly violated topic ban several times even after several warnings. One can read latest advice by admin FPAS User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise#Topic ban violation. He is busy. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  12:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Thankyou sir, for repeating the 'same' words as by the IP one more time. You think repeating it will make it true? BTW, you claimed that I have "been blatantly violated topic ban several times", so please why dont you tell the admins when was the last time I have edited a topic which you for now presumingly believe falls within my topic ban? As I have requested you earlier, that you need to stop lying and exaggerating the 'facts'—TripWire ^talk 13:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You mentioned it itself, sir. You think that India thinks that all terrorist attacks in India are related to Pakistan, and because of that, it is part of an India-Pakistan conflict, and this means your topic ban applies. Besides, topic bans are broadly construed. Violating topic bans may result in an extension of that ban, a block, including an indefinite block... If you think a topic ban is unjustified, don't violate it, or try to circumvent it, but appeal it.--Müdigkeit (talk) 14:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

So sir, what you are trying to say is that because any attack in India, will automatically, by default, without any investigation, without any proof, without any recourse to any legal proceedings will have to be understood (internationally and among ALL editors of Wikipedia and Admins) to be orchestrated by Pakistan, so it falls under Indo-Pak Conflict? WOW! I will say that same thing what i said to FPAS, ' that's a huge statement sir', not to mention a clear violation of WP:NPOV and numerous other wiki polices. BTW, would the attack carried out by Manipur Rebels in Manipur, India recently by the rebels operation from the Indo-Mayanmar Border, to which India responded by carryingout a hot pursuit operation inside Mayanmar, also included in the definition of topic-ban provided by you? Thanks —TripWire ^talk 14:10, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Important Question to Admins (and sock IP)

I am being accused of violating by Topic Ban related to Indo-Pak Conflict pages by editing 2015 Gurdaspur attack page. But please consider:

• 2015 Gurdaspur attack occurred at 5:30am on 27 July 2015.
• The 2015 Gurdaspur attack was created on same day at 08:44 am
• Till then it was an unfortunate attack on Indian soil, no terror group claimed responsibility, no one knew who was behind the attacks.
• Later it was known that one of the attackers seemed like a Sikh, and thus the possibility of Khalistan Movement surfaced.
• I made my first edit at the page at 02:28, 28 July 2015, approximately 24 hrs after the attack.
• Till then Pakistan had not been brought into the mix, so the question, how and when did this page started falling withing the purview of Indo-Pak Conflict, a topic I am banned to edit?
• The first mention of Pakistan at the page was made at 21:44, 28 July 2015. This was usual Indian rehtoric of accusing Pakistan everytime a terror attack happens in India. This time it was a shot in the dark as unlike let's say Mumbai Attacks where India had a confession of Ajmal Kasb, thereby giving credence to the Indian claim, this time the accusation was blank, vague and to date unproven. So the second question: Did this ACCUSATION make 2015 Gurdaspur attack page an Indo-Pak Conflict topic, may be? If so, then I would respectfully ask the Admins the same question I asked from FPAS at his talk page, but I am not going to repeat it here.
• Please, I request, help me understand how (and when) does a terror attack in India becomes a topic of Indo-Pak Conflict? What's the criteria, how should I gauge that a page I am editing is a Conflict page, because the line is quite thin here and personal vendettas quite high. Thanks.—TripWire ^talk 14:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Read above comment, you disagree on "Pakistan is behind Gurudaspur bomb blasts" thats why it is part of India-Pakistan conflict. And what about your edits on NGO Lashkar-e-Taiba? I demand strict action on this user. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  14:10, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You, as been highlighted numerous times, are an exaggerator and a manipulator. You are again lying by saying that I "disagree on Pakistan is behind Gurudaspur bomb blasts", can you prove it sir? Which edit of mine made you think that I am against it? Did I remove ANY info related to this? Did I challenge this accusation by India? The only thing I changed in the line quoted by you is that India 'alleged' that Pakistan is behind the attacks, what's wrong with that? Isnt it an accusation as of now or you as per habitual WP:NPOV pusher wants to state this as a FACT? The other edit I made was to add the fact that Indian authorities mistakenly thought one of the attackers to be a Sikh, is that wrong to? Is it not factual or supported by Indian sources? Or by highlighting that India retracted a mistake well in time and instead accused Pakistan, didnt I actually support the Indian POV as opposed to your accusation that I am against "Pakistan is behind Gurudaspur bomb blasts"? Wake up Sir! You in your frustration against me, have crossed all bounds of morality.—TripWire ^talk 14:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Lashkar-e-Taibar is clearly related to Pakistan, so it is a forbidden article. A topic ban is a topic ban. Not from an article, but from everything related to that topic, broadly construed.--Müdigkeit (talk) 14:26, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Related to Pakistan, not Pakistani Politics. Broadly construed is OK, but making it so broad that anything which has a word Pakistan in it is banned for me is not. If that had been the case, FPAS could have very easily said in by Ban that I am not allowed to edit ANY topic related to Pakistan (alone). Infact, that's the clarification I am trying to seek here from respected Admins. I can be wrong, and I dont mind if I am corrected by Admins.—TripWire ^talk 14:37, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Immediately after his ban, TripWire filed a request to lift his ban, which was not even replied and ultimately rejected. You were banned for India-Pakistan conflicts which includes Lashkar e taiba as this terror group launches attack against India every week.112.79.39.111 (talk) 14:40, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Funny. Ref: as this terror group launches attack against India every week: and this far-fetched accusation makes it a topic of Pakistani Politics/Conflict? Sir, excellent attempt at pushing a WP:NPOV. BTW, did you muster the courage to login? Admins sirs, is it fair to be reported by a sock/SPA? —TripWire ^talk 14:51, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

While I will defer to admins more familiar with the India-Pakistan area and topic bans more generally, this does appear to me to be a violation of the topic ban. Edits such as this and this are clearly on topics related to India-Pakistan conflicts. It doesn't really matter, in my opinion, whether it had yet been confirmed that the attacks were carried out by people from Pakistan; I think the fact that a link was being considered brings the topic within the India-Pakistan conflicts topic. Sam Walton (talk) 14:47, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@TripWire: If an article mentions both Pakistan and India and covers violence or religious strife or political or military wranglings you are topic-banned from that article. Lashkar-e-Taiba emphatically falls under your topic ban. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm...So sir I have been wrong all along?? Darn! May be I was taking the ban wording too literally. —TripWire ^talk 14:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@TripWire: It's not a good idea to test the boundaries of a topic ban. If there's any doubt, ask an admin familiar with the matter before you start editing. But these queries should be reserved for non-obvious cases. Lashkar-e-Taiba is an obvious case. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I do find it hard to believe that you would think your topic ban didn't cover articles like Lashkar-e-Taiba or in conflict-related articles where a link between India and Pakistan is being discussed. Sam Walton (talk) 15:13, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Sir, all along my argument regarding LeT had been that it did not fell under "Pakistani Politics", now it seems that it is connected to Indo-pak Conflict?! Ouch!—TripWire ^talk 15:15, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Problems with the ban appeal

I noticed someone mentioned a denied ban appeal.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive177#Result_of_the_appeal_by_TripWire Ban Appeal) And then I noticed the following: Future Perfect at Sunrise didn't answer or explain his actions in the appeal despite notice, and the appeal was automatically archived after 7 days. This is disappointing. Future Perfect at Sunrise was active during that time. This behaviour seems to be contrary to WP:ADMINACCT.--Müdigkeit (talk) 15:17, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Sir, thanks for saying what I couldnt. I am being continoulsy mocked that I didnt even worth a reply on my ban appeal and thus (ironically) my ban was justified. Sir Neil has suggested that I should have asked an Admin if I was in doubt 9which I was). Seriously, I may be wrong in saying so, but I will not fall down to a level where I approach the same admin who did not even bother to reply to my appeal. On a seond thought, I should have approached FPAS, but whereas I do enjoy my edits at Wikipedia, but it is not a matter of life or death to me. I exercised my right of appeal, it went unanswered, which in itself was insulting, if taken in that sense, I am sorry, if resultantly I didnt feel comfortable to interact with the same Admin. I could have also approached another admin, but for the same reason, I found it rather belittling that I am knocking at a door, only to find out that it remains unopened. The only reason behind my latest interaction with FPAS at his talk page was because I was forced by Human3015 to respond there when he reported me to FPAS. BTW, FPAS didnt even then respond to me, but made a hasty reply to Human3015 alone, which again was taken with a heavy heart by me. But still, I understand that being an Admin is a thankless job, and I hold no grudges. We are all here to improve this website, will try to do that, till I am permitted to do that. Thanks —TripWire ^talk 15:31, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• @TripWire: If someone has not replied to your ban appeal then it doesn't mean that you are allowed to violate your topic ban. That can be different discussion and should not be discussed on this thread, @Müdigkeit: this is the issue of WP:AE. Here we are discussing current topic ban violations by TripWire. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  16:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually I think this is related to that. TripWire had the right to appeal, and it is obvious that right was not fully exercised or granted as no one even replied on the thread. I think we all ought to sit back and re-visit the original ban. It would be good if the previous appeal could be de-archived and the involved admin/editors could add in their thoughts. After all, it's meant to be preventable, not punitive. And to be honest, TripWire isn't really doing anything different than what the POV pushers on the other side of the fence are doing. Perhaps sanctions should be applied equally. Mar4d (talk) 23:25, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@Mar4d: It is not just you who thinks in that way, even I wanted that his appeal should have been replied, I said this in my long advice on TripWire's talk page see last line. But apparently his appeal could have been refused. His behaviour is such that even you yourself describing his behaviour as "POV Pusher". He has done many mistakes even after his topic ban. Even if we de-archive or re-open his case still again no one will comment on his appeal. Or even if someone comment on it still it will end up in deny. It will hurt TripWire again. And I agree on you that "POV pushers" of "both" sides should be banned. These POV pushers are ruining Wikipedia. When we are busy in any project these POV pushers and Socks unnecessarily attracts our attention and we end up in wasting our time and we also lose our interest in that topic. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  02:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Human3015, please stop patronizing me. What you call advice was more of a mockery whereby you showed your true colors. You were the first one to 'enjoy' that my ban appeal went out without a discussion. Stop lying for once!—TripWire ^talk 06:19, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Human3015 and Sock IPs

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While we are at it, I'd like to make few observations:

• Human3015 has a weiered habit of showing emphathy with established socks and vice versa.
• I wonder why is it that whenever I have been in discussion with Human3015, a sock or a SPA appears from nowhere and attempts at disrupting my contributions. The fact that I have been reported by a (sock) IP for topic-ban vio here is a point to note. Especially, when Human3015 falsely and in pure bad-faith reported me for 3RR vio, and when it was seen in the discussion there that it is not going to yield results as per Human's wishes, this socks appears and reports me here.
• Point to note is that the last edit I made at LeT page was at 00:23, 3 August 2015 and the last edit made by me on 2015 Gurdaspur attack was at 20:30, 2 August 2015. Thereafter when I was told that I might be violating my topic-ban, I stopped from editing both the topics. But, still I get reported by the sock IP today on 5 August (after it was seen that the false report against me for 3RR was likely to backfire, with a likelihood of some action against Human as he used a 2-days-old edit by me to force compile 3RR volition)??

• This is not the first time this has happened. I was reported by Human for SPI upon 'suggestion' by an established sockmaster. Human, instead of ignoring the sock, gladly acknowledged the Sock's suggestion and obliged by reporting me for SPI. The result of SPI was also not as per Human's wishes, but no action was taken against Human for accusing me of socking that too upon suggestion by a sock - fathom the irony!

• Just yesterday, when Human and I were having a discussion at Talk:Desi daru, and when Human was unable to prove his point, another sock/SPA appeared from nowhere and vandalized my talk page twice while I was amidst the discussion with Human.

• I wonder why is it that established socks/sockmaster always approach Human for help? Is it just a coincidence that socks are in communication with Human, that socks recommend to him to report me for false SPI, that I get reported by a sock IP again here on the eve of sanctions on Human for falsely reporting me for 3RR? Food for thought.—TripWire ^talk 18:26, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
  • If you want to allege that another user is a sockpuppet then file an SPI. Sam Walton (talk) 18:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I don't know from where these IPs appear whenever I have discussion with TripWire. My talk page has always been attacked by both Pro-Indian and Pro-Pakistani IPs. And both of these group of IPs are socks of different sockmasters. As usual TripWire told you half story, now I will tell you another story, [249], [250], [251] Here one IP is abusing me in local language saying "What conspiracy you did to get me topic banned for 6 months?, did you e-mail admin FPAS to provoke him to get me topic banned?. Don't touch Pakistan related articles for 6 months till my ban is over". I will not translate abusive words. I have never even thought that it is sock of TripWire, I have not even complained or discussed it with anyone. I just left this matter. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  21:24, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

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Banned IP hopping user on Talk:Cheshvan

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Yet another IP sock of Vote (X) for Change (talk · contribs) has just shown up. He showed up at Talk:Hebrew calendar and was identified after a day, blocked and the talk page was page protected. He now has decided to carry on with his issues at Talk:Cheshvan, which I'm reverting. I've just alerted User:NeilN on his talk page, but this guy seems to be pointlessly persistent. Choor monster (talk) 14:53, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Blocked again. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

A word in your ear: [252]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.164.227 (talk) 15:28, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'm well aware of your history of misrepresentations and proclamations that admins will be desysopped. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:52, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

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Bad faith editing at TV articles by User:TheRedPenOfDoom

I have noticed that on some "list of programs broadcast by network" articles that User:TheRedPenOfDoom has added tags to upcoming programming sections that claim there is undue weight and advertising.

For one, how on earth can listing upcoming programming lend undue weight to articles, if there are currently and formerly broadcast sections? Secondly, @Manoflogan: stated the content in question is not promotional material as long as it is cited with proper sources, in this case, most of it is. Yet TheRedPenOfDoom went on his delusional crusade anyway. (please read User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom#Regarding Upcoming Series on Zee Zindagi for more info)

This user is obviously crazy to believe that upcoming programming lends undue weight and is advertising, source or no source. He is continuing to uphold this even after I had reverted his tagging. I personally feel that an indefinite block or ban is needed at this point. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 21:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

TRPoD started discussions on the addition of the Undue tag on the article talk pages where you were edit-warring. It would preferable to try to come to a resolution by discussing this difference of opinion with other editors before turning to ANI. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: Personally, I feel TRPoD's claims of undue weight and advertising are invalid, yet he's running with them anyway. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 21:59, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You might be correct about the content but it's best to get a consensus on the article talk pages. It looks like a discussion is occurring at Talk:List of programs broadcast by Zee Zindagi although it is heated. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Extracted the following from the discussion:

Wikipedia admin Cyphoidbomb has given his opinion that he does not mind the presence of Future Programming as long as there is a valid source of reference. User_talk:TheRedPenOfDoom#Regarding_Upcoming_Series_on_Zee_Zindagi. I am therefore going to remove the two warnings that you inserted. He/She also mentioned that it is a standard template for television network programming. If you have any issues, you can take it up with him/her. But from now on, please refrain from adding warnings just because you object to the sections or their referenced content. In addition, please don't go about putting the warnings back again.

Like Manoflogan, I removed the templates from the articles. However, TRPoD re-added them almost immediately. Like I keep saying, the edits do not appear to have been made in good faith. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 22:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

"Delusional crusade"? "This user is obviously crazy"? Electricburst1996, you need to step back from the edge of the cliff pronto.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, maybe I am exaggerating a bit too much... ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 22:51, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This really doesn't seem like something that warrants actions anywhere near an indefinite block or ban. Article talk pages are there for a reason. Sam Walton (talk) 21:50, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

If the Guinness Book of Records has an entry for "dragged most times to ANI for manifestly invalid reasons" then TRPoD would own it. Reyk _YO! 21:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

As noted above, an AN/I complaint that says "this user is obviously crazy" had really better be confident that the user complained of is obviously crazy. Good faith does not invariably mean "agreeing with me". I'm disturbed about the way targeted editors are dragged into this sort of thing over and over again, and would not be surprised to find that this is yet more spillover from TRPoD’s previous persecutors. The community should give TRPoD a firm assurance that, barring actions that actually are "obviously crazy", these repeated complaints will be ignored or boomeranged; that sort of assurance would go a long way toward defusing the tension. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Whilst not being a proof of sanity, or otherwise, can anyone list off some article where RedPen's efforts have been held up as an example of good editing? This is an editor with a serious WP:BATTLEGROUND problem, across every article I've ever seen them at. They have formal restrictions against them because of this on the Gamergate issue. In particular, they have a messianic belief in their personal absolute correctness, no matter what.

Although I'm seeing some hyperbole from Electricburst1996 here, it's not hard to see how RedPen has inspired it. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

If I may chime in my two cents here, I think Andy Dingley has hit the nail on the head here. I agree that Electricburst1996 is over reacting, and using some rather hyperbolic language, but there is also something to be said for the fact that users across the board are constantly taking issue with the same user, over and over again. Even if one assumes some of these complaints are simply sock puppets, surely they aren't ALL. Seems to me that at a certain point TRPoD should take some responsibility for this as well.--Zackmann08 (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 03:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

TRPoD does a valuable job in pruning back the dross that tends to accumulate in articles. In a project where some people think that every passing mention of a thing, in every single medium, however trivial, deserves its own section in the top-level article, we do actually need cruft-pruners. Guy (Help!) 21:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

And that's a free ride to behave however he wants? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Evidence supplied by long-term abusers who get special treatment because of their perceived good content work would suggest yes it is. I make no comment on if that is a good or a bad thing. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

There appears to be a content dispute at the heart of this. One party is engaging on the talk page, which is what you're supposed to do, while the other is running to this page which is intended for reporting serious conduct issues, crying "bad faith" rather than engage in discussion to resolve the content dispute. The latter behaviour tends to be frowned upon. --TS 00:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Tony Sidaway: I left a message on TRPoD's talk page in an attempt to resolve the issue. I'll report back tomorrow to see how it goes. ElectricBurst^{(Electron firings)}_(Zaps) 02:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Given that this started with edit warring to remove tags that state " Discuss and resolve this issue before removing this message." and then violations of WP:TPG by blanking the discussion from the talk page and then [253] blatantly violate WP:NPA while simultaneously accusing me of acting in bad faith, I think it is pretty clear where the bad faith editing is emanating from in this instance. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:10, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I frequently run into TRPOD at problematic articles related to Indian/Pakistani entertainment. Typically I agree with his staunch anti-fluff attitude, however in this case I disagree with him. The inclusion of upcoming programs in a List of programs broadcast by... article is standard operating procedure if the content can be sourced. Rather than templating individual articles with badges of shame, I think the better approach might be for him to approach WikiProject Television and start the discussion there. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:51, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Continuing DE by buzzbuzzwili

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Fresh off his 24 hour block for DE, [User:Buzzbuzzwili] is continuing to change political parties' ideological points of view, often without citing any sources. [254] [255] [256], but at least once with a source [257]. MissPiggysBoyfriend (talk) 22:08, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Looks like WP:IDHT. Topic ban? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 23:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd don't see that a single topic ban is going to accomplish anything. The user is obsessed with changing political positions and ideology for parties across the entire globe (see his/her contributions page). The editor doesn't seem to be WP:HERE and only interested in pushing their own personal interpretation of what party adheres to what. S/he's DE right across the board. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:02, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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User:Doell brad

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• Doell brad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Personal attack by user [258] and clearly a sock puppet of Wikipedia members suck (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who edited Barry Zito before he was blocked. TL565 (talk) 09:21, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I do not think he is a sock. User:Wikipedia members suck was blocked because of the username and I think that might be a new account created after the block for the username --EurovisionNim (talk to me)(see my edits) 09:24, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

He is clearly a sock. Wikipedia members suck edited Barry Zito before he was blocked, then Doell brad account is created and writes on my talk page about Barry Zito. Both have edited porn actress articles. It's the same person. TL565 (talk) 09:31, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

User is clearly being disruptive [259], [260] WP:NOTHERE. TL565 (talk) 11:25, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Given this users only edits are either disruption or insults I have blocked them. I am happy to reconsider, or for any other admin to reconsider, if the user indicates a willingness to play well with others. Chillum 14:56, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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User:108.80.79.13

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IP posting unsourced POV negative content into Jon Stewart and Cheryl Mills. When reverted, user reposts. Trackinfo (talk) 10:11, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Blocked. Juvenile vandalism like this can simply reported to WP:AIV. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:15, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

AIV is the second link at Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Requesting blocks. If AIV is where you want things, it should be the first or only link. I'm an experienced editor and I don't remember this stuff, so I have to look it up. Trackinfo (talk) 10:22, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Done. Be bold next time. :) -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:27, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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more copyvio

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Despite yet another final warning [261], [262] 124.188.8.78 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) continues on his merry way. [263] is a very close paraphrase of [264]. duffbeerforme (talk) 10:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Using WHOIS I found that the IP address is a social one. It has been blocked only last week and he is still doing copyright violations. I think it is best to block it for a week at least --EurovisionNim (talk to me)(see my edits) 12:21, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Blocked one week. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:07, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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Atsme redux

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Atsme has recently proposed 14 articles for deletion[265] and when these PRODs were denied, nominated all of them for deletion. The articles are on fish species, and these topics would seem to be inherently notable per WP:SPECIESOUTCOMES.
The PRODS and AfD nominations were made without consulting the creator of those articles, Thomas.W, who has characterized them[266] as "revenge" for this contribution at the recent ANI concerning Atsme.

In response to a query from Bishonen about the wisdom of these actions,[267], Atsme has said[268] to Bishonen

You are not a neutral administrator where I'm concerned and you showing up here now to accuse me yet again further demonstrates my concerns. I am just doing my job here for the reasons I explained to the editor. I do have an interest in rare and endangered fishes - see my user page - and now I am being wrongfully accused for simply doing my job? It doesn't matter where I go or what I do. I have grown weary of the PAs.

• No comment regarding Atsme's alleged misbehaviour, but I do think it needs to be said that a) there is no such thing as "inherent notability", b) there is nothing wrong with AfDing an article if a PROD is declined, and c) it is not generally necessary to ask an article creator's permission before nominating at AfD. Reyk _YO! 12:54, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• Jesus wept. Atsme has completely lost it. Guy (Help!) 13:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Reyk: You are noting the revenge factor, right? Softlavender (talk) 13:20, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

===Proposal for site ban=== In view of the disruptive/incompetent behaviour, worries about personalisation of disputes and lack of self-reflection raised in the recent ANI which discussed Astme, I propose that Atsme be banned indefinitely from editing Wikipedia to prevent further problems. Alexbrn (talk) 12:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, scratch this as the previous section on Astme above has now been re-opened. Alexbrn (talk) 12:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Um, well at least she didn't prod Opabinia regalis. That would have really been a faux pas. ;-) That said, the level of drama and rash actions and vortex of disruption surrounding Atsme seems to be increasing rather than decreasing. Something needs to be done, although I think Bishonen's block of one month is much more reasonable at this point than a site ban would have been. Her block log and behaviors have simply not risen to the point of a site ban yet, per WP:BMB. Softlavender (talk) 12:58, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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IP edits to New Jersey Devils related articles

Look at this history. We have several IPs making changes and several established editors reverting them.

The IP edits look cack-handed at best, but not really vandalism. I see no attempt to discuss it... although I get the impression that the established users have been here before and think this may be socks of people who have been causing problems before.

Anyone familiar with the history and want to intervene?

Yaris678 (talk) 13:28, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

For relevant history, see this previous incident report which led to an editor block, Talk:1994–95 New Jersey Devils season and the discussion threads to which the last two sections link, and Talk:1993–94 New York Rangers season to see many attempts at discussion and the stream of edit requests that have been made which lack specific details (the talk page history contains more edit requests that have been deleted). isaacl (talk) 17:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive Behavior and Editing, HughD

HughD's edits in pages related to Americans for Prosperity (AfP) and the Koch family are highly disruptive WP:DE. This disruptive behavior is exhibited through bludgeoning the talk pages, a WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality towards those who agree and disagree with him, WP:HOUNDing those who disagree with him, behaving as if he WP:OWNed the talk pages and WP:GAMEing the system to get what he wants. This is a clear pattern of recent disruptive behavior.

Bludgeoning WP:BLUDGEON HughD has flooded the talk page of AfP. HughD has posted 393 of the 1105 total posts on the talk page. [[269]]. In a recent ANI [[270]] related to an RfC HughD posted on the AfP talk page, HughD posted 29 times. All others posted 35 times (64 total posts at this writing).

Battlefield WP:BATTLEFIELD HughD hounds those who don't agree with his POV while profusely thanking and/or praising those who do. This harms consensus building by creating an us vs them mentality. WP:DISRUPTSIGNS

• Praising those who agree: [[271]][[272]]

Also see the use of the "thank" function: [[273]]

• Demanding answers of those who don't agree (including posting on their User:Talk pages when they don't reply in the talk pages): [[274]],[[275]],[[276]],[[277]],[[278]][[279]][[280]][[281]][[282]]

Gaming[(related rule) ] Attempting to use user NPOV concerns regarding a RfC as evidence that there is a consensus to extend the RfC deadline:[[283]][[284]][[285]]

Hounding WP:HOUND Carrying the debate to unrelated pages:

• User talk pages:[[286]][[287]][[288]]
• Talk page of a user's sandbox:[[289]]

Ownership Moving the comments of others without permission [[290]

I request a topic block for HughD on all Koch related pages/topics. Springee (talk) 15:06, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Incidences after posting this ANI: Gaming Please add this recent edit claiming I support holding off closing a RfC. [[291]] Springee (talk) 15:19, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Hounding Having made it clear here [[292]] that I do not support an attempt to extend HughD's RfC, the editor again replies on my talk page instead of on the noticeboard page. [[293]] Springee (talk) 15:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Initial statement of reported editor

"flooded the talk page of AfP Talk:Americans for Prosperity" In March 2015 I and some collaborators noticed that Americans for Prosperity was severely non-neutral with respect to reliable sources, for example, making no mention of the Tea Party movement and just one mention of the Kochs; please see Talk:Americans_for_Prosperity#Tea_Party. Some collaborators initiated a good article effort. In mid June 2015, as the article approached the completeness of coverage of reliable sources required by good article criteria, the article attracted increased critical attention, and several editors expressed their preference for an incomplete article rather than a good article through deletion of noteworthy neutral content and reliable sources. Americans for Prosperity is at the intersection of several active arbitration committee findings, including WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2, WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement, and WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change, broadly construed. Multiple threads of talk page discussion, including an RfC discussion, have been vigorous. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"In a recent ANI ... posted 29 times." I respectfully decline to respond to the charge of commenting 29 times at an ANI report filed against me last week by the same reporting user. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 18:10, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"Praising those who agree" I'm sorry, I don't see any praise at the diffs provided by the reporting user; I find expressions of gratitude and an offer of collaboration. In any case, I think I may not have praised the reporting user enough. I apologize for that, and I will attempt to praise the reporting user more even-handedly in the future. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:14, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"use of the thank function" I have even thanked the reporting user for some of their edits, but I think I may not have thanked the reporting user enough. I apologize for that, and I will attempt to thank the reporting user more even-handedly in the future. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:14, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"Attempting to use user NPOV concerns regarding a RfC as evidence that there is a consensus to extend the RfC deadline" On 31 July, one week before the tentatively scheduled close of the RfC Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds, the reporting user filed an ANI report including an expression of concern regarding the notification to WikiProject WP:CONSERVATISM; please see WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#RfC_spamming.2C_canvasing.2C_cross_posting._User:_HughD, above. Since there is no deadline, the option of extending through consensus authorized by WP:Requests_for_comment#Ending_RfCs was suggested. The option was declined. The close was not delayed. I apologize for my mistaken belief that the reporting user was concerned about the notification of WP:CONSERVATISM. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:33, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"Moving the comment" The RfC Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Request for comment: $44M of $140M raised by Americans for Prosperity in 2012 election cycle from Koch-related funds was structured with a "Survey" section, to accommodate initial statements of position of collaborators, independent of a "Threaded discussion" section. One editor objected to a colleague's initial statement of position and interspersed a threaded comment into the "Survey" section. 1 August 2015 I respectfully asked the editor to move the comment from the "Survey" section to the "Threaded discussion" section. Three days later, hearing no objection, I moved the comment from the "Survey" section to the "Threaded discussion" section. When the move was reverted, I left it. I apologize for trying to tidy up the "Survey" section in preparation for the close. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Hugh (talk) 16:07, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Prosperity for the Koch Brothers, anyway. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:20, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Comments

Admin action is needed

Note that a previous complaint against Hugh by Springee is still active on this page and hasn't even been archived yet. This ANI complaint was filed against HughD almost exactly a month ago, by Champaign Supernova. There's also this AE request that Hugh filed against Arthur Rubin around the same time. This is one of those long, messy disputes that it can be difficult for un-involved editors and admins to wade into, but it has been going on for a month now, with conflict spilling over into numerous other noticeboards and pages. It's getting ridiculous.

As an involved party who agrees with HughD on most aspects of the content dispute, and who defended him in previous ANI complaints, I have slowly come around to the view that he is indeed editing disruptively. This is difficult to illustrate with a single diff, since the primary problem is the excessive number of posts that HughD has made to the talk page of Americans for Prosperity, many of which are carbon copies of each other and add little to the discussion. Some examples: [294][295][296][297][298]. Hugh seems to feel the need to respond to almost every post made on that talk page, and a lot of his comments are not constructive.

That said, I still think Hugh is editing in good faith, and I've suggested elsewhere, he has been fighting an effort to whitewash the Americans for Prosperity page in a way that is demonstrably inconsistent with reliable sources and NPOV. Hugh's conduct should not be examined in isolation, since there has been problematic editing on both sides of this dispute. Check out Guy Macon's battleground-y posts here and here, for example.

I suggest a formal warning - for HughD (disruptive editing, page ownership), with a block to follow if his problematic behavior does not improve. Warnings for some of the other involved editors might be needed as well (there's been an awful lot of battleground conduct, refusal to hear, and NPOV violations at Americans for Prosperity). Hopefully some judiciously applied warnings will be enough to get everyone in this dispute to calm the heck down and focus on content rather than politics & personality. At this point, they are very unlikely to do so without outside intervention. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• Fyddlestix, thank you for your input. You have far more involvement with the article than I so I think your view that others may have been baiting HughD should be taken into consideration. That said, [their behavior is not an excuse] for HughD's. In less than two months HughD has had two blocks [[299]], and 10 warnings of various types posted to his user talk page ([[300]][[301]][[302]][[303]][[304]][[305]][[306]][[307]][[308]][[309]]

He was also warned that the article in question is the subject of discretionary sanctions: [[310]] I don't think HughD can claim he wasn't warned. I believe it is clear that he is not interested in heeding the warnings hence I suggest a topic block. Time off might also be warranted but I think a longer term topic block is appropriate. Springee (talk) 19:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I understand what you mean, but the key thing for me is that almost all of those warnings came from people involved in the dispute (ie, Hugh's "opponents" in the debate). I think that a warning from a neutral, un-involved admin would do a lot more good than warnings from people who are knee-deep in the dispute.

Also, the warnings you linked are for other things (reverts, civility, etc), not for the comment spam, which is in my opinion the only thing that Hugh could justifiably face sanction for here. Fyddlestix (talk) 20:40, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

What needs to be done?

HughD does seem to have a bee in his bonnet. That's not necessarily forbidden, but he gives an impression of a tiger on the loose. There's little doubt that if he does not tone down the rhetoric, he will be topic banned sooner rather than later. As far as the above request goes, does the admin community need to do anything more than simply point that out, at this stage? Guy (Help!) 09:28, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

When someone has two ANIs simultaneously running about them, unless they are being unfairly targeted/stalked, it seems to me they have become a disruption to the encyclopedia, and need an admin warning at least, or a sanction at best. Being a net disruption to the project means that someone is veering into being a net negative to Wikipedia, which would eventually mean longterm blocks. Hopefully the editor will avoid that fate by taking stock and re-orienting their behavior. And yes, at this point I think administrative analysis and action is required, even if the action is only a warning. Given his block log [311], I'm of the mind that a one-week block might actually be in order, if the analyzing admin believes a sanction is warranted. Softlavender (talk) 09:42, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Softlavender: you wrote "two ANIs simultaneously." Two ANI filings by the same user in the closing week of a contenious RfC at a contenious article Americans for Prosperity which is squarely at the intersection WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2, WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement, and WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change. The first of these has yet to roll off above on this page at #RfC spamming, canvasing, cross posting. User: HughD. May I ask you, what is the disposition of the first of these two ANI filings above? May I ask you, how would you characterize the position of uninvolved commenters at the first of these two ANI filings above? May I ask you, what is your basis in policy or guideline of your view that two ANI filings against an editor, by the same user, constitutes disruption? Hugh (talk) 17:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I imposed on HughD a two-week topic ban related to the Americans for Prosperity RFC broadly. The RFC is closed so the only continued arguments would be about the closing or the RFC or whatever and I'm assuming that HughD will take the two weeks to let it go. No block so it's a lot of WP:ROPE for HughD to work off. Assuming it calms down a bit, else I'm leaning towards a topic ban that basically shuts HughD off until the election next year is over. I'll list it on the enforcement log. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:10, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

May I ask, what is the grounds for this topic ban? May I ask in your reply that you please refer to specific behavior and specific policy and guideline. Your close of this ANI report is extraordinarily unhelpful. Thank you in advance for your reply. Hugh (talk) 16:37, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Ricky81682: under WP:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions/Log/2015#American_politics_2 you imposed a topic ban on the basis of "repeated incivility and disruptive behavior at Talk:Americans for Prosperity about content". Please be more specific about the "repeated incivility and disruptive behavior at Talk:Americans for Prosperity about content" you mention. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:34, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I think it should be made clear that HugD is still allowed to respond to this ANI report.

I support a topic ban that basically shuts HughD off until the election next year is over, but Americans for Prosperity is not his hobby horse. The Koch brothers are. Right now HughD is showing an interest in Paul Singer (businessman). I predict that he will find articles about other political donors listed here to be of great interest in the months leading up to the US election.

As an aside concerning the Koch brothers, I could make a good case for the existence of three major factions. Whitewashers (want to suppress anything bad about the Koch brothers), Blackwashers (want to demonize the Koch brothers), and ordinary editors who want the articles to have a NPOV. Naturally, the ordinary editors are called whitewashers by the blackwashers and are called blackwashers by the whitewashers.... :( --Guy Macon (talk) 12:01, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Summary, and suggest closing this ANI

Here is the text of the topic ban just implemented:

HughD, upon reviewing the second ANI discussion, the first ANI discussion, Talk:Americans for Prosperity and the now arguments over the closing attempts at the RFC, I am now imposing a two-week topic ban against you on anything related to Americans for Prosperity. This including any noticeboard discussions about the RFC, any further debates about the closing, whatever. Take two weeks off in full from this issue. These two weeks, which will have zero overall affect in the campaign season long-term, will give you a rest from the daily routine of that page and hopefully everything can be better evaluated with a little space. I'd normally just block you and throw away the key as a way to calm the situation but instead I'm giving you a lot of rope (Fred Koch and whatever else are not included) as I'm presuming that you have enough sense not to try to argue the same things in other ways and you can conduct yourself on other articles without the same attitude and arguments. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

This text is extraordinarily useless. What is the specific behavioural basis and the specific policy that is the basis for this topic ban? Hugh (talk) 16:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

"the first ANI discussion" What was the disposition of the ANI report you refer to? What was the consensus of uninvolved editors at the ANI report you refer to? Thank you in advance for your reply. Hugh (talk) 21:37, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

"the second ANI discussion" What in the ANI report you refer to in your view warrants a topic ban? please with specific reference to behavior, policy, and guideline. Thank you in advance for your reply. Hugh (talk) 21:37, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

"arguments over the closing attempts at the RFC" What is the basis for this? Please provide a diff and a link to policy or guideline. Thank you in advance for your reply. Hugh (talk) 21:37, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Since HughD is topic-banned from this issue for two weeks, and therefore the ANI complaint is currently resolved, I suggest closing this ANI. Softlavender (talk) 11:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Please hold this open. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Request Close on BLPN discussion

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Could we get a review and close over at BLPN on the discussion of Roosh V by an uninvolved admin? It's been open for over a week, and discussion of the topic has been dead for a few days. --Kyohyi (talk) 16:08, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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Edit warring by 173.21.188.179

User:173.21.188.179 is continuing to edit war with User:5 albert square after being warned not to. 99.53.112.186 (talk) 18:11, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

There's no edit warring from me as I haven't edited the page since 2nd August. I reverted them previously because I didn't see how edits like these could be construed as anything other than vandalism. The IP hasn't given a reason for reducing the image so when I came across the edit, after a report to AIV, it looked like vandalism to the untrained eye. They've reverted it again still not giving a reason as to why the size of the image should be changed so they're continuing their disruptive editing.--5 albert square (talk) 19:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree that you were not edit warring User:5 albert square. You did the right thing in my opinion. I was only referring to the user in the title. 2602:306:3357:BA0:6914:843B:E888:7228 (talk) 21:27, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

For those who are wondering, it appears that the article the OP is referring to is Fornjot_(moon), but at any rate...Albert, the OP stated that only the IP is edit-warring, not you (but I do see how that can be misinterpreted). Anyway, I was about to note that the IP hasn't edited since receiving the most recent warning, but his/her talk page indicates that this is an ongoing issue (if all that represents the same person, that is). Maybe a longer block is warranted? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 00:57, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree with having this user blocked for a longer period of time. Is everybody on board with that decision. 2602:306:3357:BA0:14B8:B3F4:8A0:185E (talk) 03:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Richmond Pharmacology - marketing manager WP:NOTHERE

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• Richmond Pharmacology (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• 217.206.184.76 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• Swelgemoed (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Added by JzG:

• Richmond Pharmacology Ltd (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Richmond Pharmacology Limited (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Richmond Pharmacology at St George’s University of London (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• User:Swelgemoed (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Swelgemoed is a marketing manager for Richmond Pharmacology. They have edit warred at the article, created two duplicate articles with their own preferred content Richmond Pharmacology Limited and Richmond Pharmacology at St George’s University of London (each speedied) and have edited other articles in a promotional way - see Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Promotional_editing_of_drug_articles.

Today the IP (which "whois" says is at Richmond, see here has been edit warring like crazy.

As you can see User talk:Swelgemoed, I and others have tried without success to engage the user, and they have refused to talk at all.

I have asked for pp here.

Please indef the user and block the IP. They are WP:NOTHERE. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 18:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

note - pp done by Guy here Jytdog (talk) 18:44, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• If anyone else wants to undo the protection that's fine, the issue is that this person does not seem to want to engage, but does want to make the article more promotional. I've left suggestions on their Talk page and a strong recommendation to use Talk not edit the article, but they don't seem to want to know. I disagree that they should be banninated at this point, the article is new and they are right to say that most of the sources from which it is drawn are less than complimentary, a result of Richmond having decided to try to torpedo the All Trials initiative in court. I am confident that if Ms. Welgemoed can bring herself to work properly with others then a better article will result - we won't know until she actually gets the hint and starts trying to do it right. Guy (Help!) 18:58, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

This happens with company reps from time to time; surprisingly (and happily) infrequently. This is only the 2nd time I have brought this kind of case here. The disruption in muliple ways is very clear, as is the refusal to engage the community. NOTHERE. Jytdog (talk) 19:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Nor have they declared their conflict as required by the Terms of Use.--ukexpat (talk) 20:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Weeelllll, up to a point. You can argue that they are editing for pay, but they are not being paid directly to edit, if you get my drift. Their compensation is not dependent on their edits, but they are undoubtedly editing on their employer's business, and that is a problem. I'd be wary of punishing people for not knowing the rules, but much less wary of blocking people whose response to being told about the rules is to stick their fingers in their ears and chant "laa laa laa I'm not listening". I genuinely don't think we've got to that point yet, but it is likely that a short block will be needed to show the user we actually mean it. Guy (Help!) 21:44, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Seems like this discussion would have more traction at WP:COIN. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 00:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I think that the idea that they are "not being paid directly to edit", if you'll forgive me, is rather stretching the bounds of the definition. A marketing manager's job these days often includes social media (and, I'm sorry to say, sometimes involves deliberate misrepresentation such as creating complimentary reviews, etc). Deb (talk) 07:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Why not block the user for failure to comply with the Terms of Sevice requirement for paid COI accounts to disclose, with an explicit promise to unblock immediately if they agree to disclose, comply with policies and guidelines, and communicate with other editors? What's the downside of that approach? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The user has already had a final warning. That's when she started using IP addresses. Deb (talk) 08:40, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

On paid editing versus conflicted editing: the ToS term is designed to stop the sort of editor-for-sale stuff that we see occasionally, with various websites offering payments usually for creation but also for editing of Wikipedia articles. It is not designed to mandate that nobody may edit Wikipedia articles on their employer's time. There's a grey area in between, of course. The consensus as I understand it is that people with a COI are asked to declare it and strongly encouraged to propose edits on Talk rather than edit directly, but this is not enforceable. That was the advice in the standard response via OTRS that I wrote some time back (I don't do OTRS these days so it may have changed). To be clear: if someone doe have a COI and refuses to follow the guidance, and their editing introduces WP:NPOV violations into articles, as it almost always does, then we can and always have been able to block them. I do not support paid editing of any kind, but as far as I can tell this does not cross the bright line in the ToS - though it is worth asking WMF. Guy (Help!) 09:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Deb, Jytdog, All - I apologize for the lack of communication, I have being trying to gain a clearer understanding of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. I am the marketing manager for Richmond Pharmacology and our recent edits to the page created by JzG, were done in good faith. We felt the original content was intended to put the company in bad light following recent legal proceedings with the HRA. Our reasons for recent edits made are as follows:

1. The omission of academic research is unreasonable, as its factual and referenced. Therefore it is a removal of relevant and factual information presumably motivated by the malicious intent to smear the organisation.

2. The reference to Metro provided does not support that Richmond pays up to £2,000 therefore this a pure fabrication by the Wikipedia contributor. The article asks the question whether £2,000 are enough to be a guinea pig and Richmond Pharmacology is mentioned there.

3. The Dhaliwal case is misrepresented as the reference clearly states the borderline nature; a far cry from “won” which suggests that she was awarded damages. The case is irrelevant to the entry and not reflective of the organisation. It has presumably been added by JzG out of malicious intent to lower the reputation of the organisation and its officers.

All the text provided in our recent edits is factual and to the point and unlike previous editions are well referenced. We welcome new additions so long as they are balanced. We also welcome your recommendation on how to improve the content so that it is completely neutral and complies with your COI policy.

Please kindly advise how we can resolve this amicably.

Regards SWelgemoed(talk), 09:24, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The article is not intended to put the company in a bad light, but it was created in the context of the HRA case because the HRA case, with its extensive media coverage, to my mind unambiguously established encyclopaedic notability - had there already been an article I would have added this content, but there was not so I started it, and I made an attempt to pick up more than just that one story. I rejected a number of sources - including stories about the HRA - as they were simply press releases dressed up as news.

You're free to suggest additional content, and changes, on the talk page. These should be backed by reliable independent sources - not recycled press releases (aka churnalism). I pointed you to user:CorporateM, who has some track record in walking this particular tightrope and may be able to advise you. Guy (Help!) 09:36, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm pleased to see this development. I hope the company now understands how to collaborate effectively with the wikipedia team. Deb (talk) 11:09, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I am closing this, since SWelgemoed has started talking to us. It seems to have taken the threat of a ban to bring them to the table, but at the table, they now are. SWelgemoed please start talking to us at the article Talk page to address the issues you have at the article talk page, which is here: Talk:Richmond Pharmacology. Jytdog (talk) 12:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Cruks

It doesn't appears to me that the above editor is here to build an encyclopedia. I never noticed their disruptive behavior until I found this ridiculous warning on Jamie Tubers's talk page. I responded to them here explaining to them why the user's edit did not constitute vandalism and User:Cruks quickly left this irrelevant note on my talk page that my revert on the article, List of Nigerian billionaires by net worth is not useful even when I never reverted anything that changed the list. I responded here telling them why the List of Nigerian billionaires by net worth should not only be on the list of Nigerian billionaire compiled in 2015 but also other years. They responded here that I shouldn't treated them unfairly simply because they want to justified their action. I edited the article, List of Nigerian billionaires by net worth here to enhance the inclusion of "list of Nigerian billionaires" compiled in other years to reflect the title but they abysmally reverted my edit. When I checked through their talk page history, I discovered that the editor is problematic. Last week, they created Declan Costello (economist), a blatant copyvio that was speedy deleted per G12 by User:Jimfbleak. A day before the page was deleted, I found this warning] by JMHamo on their talk page regarding an edit warring on Morgan Schneiderlin. I also saw this warning on their talk for not been using the edit summary. There are also several warning on their talk page regarding the addition of poor sources to article such as this one. When I considered all this misconduct, I really don't think that this editor can contribute usefully to Wikipedia. Wikic¤l¤gy^{t@lk to M£} 19:36, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Can someone help me here?

Schwarzschild Point is asked to refrain from edit warring at Yahweh. The warnings issued to Schwarzschild Point by Doug Weller and other editors were issued correctly and were justified. De728631 (talk) 21:37, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Someone reverted one of my edits, and then someone else threatened me to report me! It was User:Doug_Weller. I had thought that this kind of behavior was against wikipedia policy. Do they really allow this sort of petty bullying? I hadn't reverted anyone's edit and he's saying I was starting an edit war. I guess you can't start an edit war if you just don't edit. This is where he sent me his threat: User_talk:Schwarzschild_Point#August_2015 Schwarzschild Point • 20:51, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)User:Schwarzschild Point, please read the links in the 3RR warning. Nothing is going to happen to you if you read and follow them. Removal of text is reverting, even if you don't know whose text you removed. And you've been reverted by 3 separate editors now. You are trying both to make a major change and you want to redirect the whole article (Yahweh). As you say, you aren't new here and should know when to stop. Work it out on the talk page - without me right now as I'm going to bed. Note that I'm bound by the same 3RR restriction that you are, but I only reverted you once. Doug Weller (talk) 21:06, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

That's not a threat, that's a clear warning that you are edit warring and need to stop. Did you read the information provided in the message?--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:03, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Everything's bullying these days. Drmies (talk) 21:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Schwarzschild Point: I suggest that you back off, before a very large boomerang looms over the horizon ...  Philg88 ^♦talk 21:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Already read it, I did not edit war. The warning is a lie and is vandalizing my talk page. Schwarzschild Point • 21:08, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

You may have read it, but you clearly did not comprehend it. --Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Once I changed text and corrected capitalization. Once when it was reverted I changed it back and invited the reverter to the talk page for discussion. He reverted it again and I left it alone. After a few hour's talk it was obvious that no concensus would be reached I added a POV tag to attract more editors. Reverted immediatly and threatened... I mean "warned". Now I want him to be taught how to use warnings correctly. Schwarzschild Point • 21:15, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I can read the difs. You made a bold edit, it was reverted, you restored it. You also did this at Yahweh (disambiguation). It's edit-warring.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:26, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Doug Weller joined the project on Apr 23, 2006 and has over 143,000 edits. DW knows how to issue warnings correctly. You might want to WP:DROPTHESTICK before it turns into a WP:BOOMERANG MarnetteD|Talk 21:20, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The fact that the OP refers to legitimate warnings as "vandalism" does not bode well for the future.[312] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Doug continues to harrass me on my talk page while administrators do nothing. Schwarzschild Point • 11:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

You're not being harassed, you're being politely warned about your combative attitude. Please reconsider your interactions with other editors, and please do not try to claim that appropriate warnings amount to vandalism. Acroterion (talk) 12:09, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Here he follows me to a talk page and tries to call me out for a "false report." My, how politely I'm being warned. If I thought I was going to be warned this politely and regularly I would have chosen a less Jewish name.

First he so politely warns me that two reverts on two different pages violate the three revert rule. Then you all so politely tell me that if I report him I'll be banned, and he so politely warns me again that my earlier total of four edits, on different pages mind you, violate the 3 revert rule still and if I make any more edits then they violate it too. And goes to a talk page and says, so politely, that I almost got banned for being offended.

My, if you weren't all so polite I'd think you didn't want someone like me around. Schwarzschild Point • 12:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Did you really just take people (correctly) warning you about edit warring as anti-semitism? UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 12:24, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I take it as WP:WIKIHOUNDING. I can only guess at his motives. Schwarzschild Point • 12:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Obviously I didn't follow this editor to Talk:Yaweh, I've had that on my watchlist for years. I note the editor still denies edit warring.[313] And of course I never told them that 2 reverts on 2 different pages are a 3RR violation. As I could never take Admin action against this editor myself, a report to AN3 claiming 2 reverts on 2 different pages was a violation would just make me look stupid. I left the standard 3RR warning and this morining I wrote on their talk page ", I wouldn't want you to think that 3 reverts per 24 hours is an entitlement, it's not. And "Any appearance of gaming the system by reverting a fourth time just outside the 24-hour slot may also be considered edit warring." I'd think someone so unfamiliar with 3RR might find that helpful. I've never said 3RR has been violated. So far as anti-semitism goes, I've blocked one of our biggest anti-semitic puppetmasters twice in the last 24 hours (Mikemikev). Doug Weller (talk) 13:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

ಠ_ಠ So, after I report you for the first warning you think "I bet he'd appreciate another warning for the same offense. Yeah, and I'll comment about it on this talk page I happen to be watching too." Sure, that... that seems likely. At this point, why not? Schwarzschild Point • 13:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Your first edits were admitedly made from an IP range that had been blocked for socking and extensive trolling, where you demanded an unblock deeming it "classist". And now this? That's quite the coincidence.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:37, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

A range block on prepaid phones, and I only said it seems classist to block a large amount of cheap to access data networks. An admin explained the reasoning though and explained that it was a difficult choice because of the collateral damage. There was no harrasment involved and everyone behaved admirably. Schwarzschild Point • 16:54, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Disney

Can someone who knows more about Disney than I do review the latest edits by User:46.208.198.222. There seems to have been a bunch of previous Disney edits by this IP reverted, but it is beyond my Disney-fu to tell whether these are good, bad or indifferent edits. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:33, 6 August 2015 (UTC).

I had a look and did what I could. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:32, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

WP:Topic ban for Aubmn

Whether here or WP:AN is the best place for this, I propose a topic ban for Aubmn (talk · contribs) with regard to the Marie Antoinette article. Aubmn's problematic editing at that article has been documented by various editors. For a WP:Diff-link to the evidence, see here and keep scrolling downward. Each section following that is one about Aubmn's problematic editing. And that problematic editing includes WP:Copyright violations, falsifying text, hard-to-read text, WP:Edit warring, WP:Socking and WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT behavior. NebY and I, especially NebY, first tried to deal with all of it. Then more editors took notice and tried to deal with all of it. Eventually, Saddhiyama brought the matter to WP:ANI earlier this year; see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive880#User:Aubmn and sockpuppetry. Since then, Blue Indigo (talk · contribs) has been trying to help out with the article and deal with Aubmn's problematic editing; he brought the matter to my talk page, as seen jhere and here, and I eventually suggested that he bring the case here to WP:ANI himself. Seeing that NeilN has WP:Full protected the article (see this link), and that Blue Indigo is understandably stressed because of Aubmn's problematic editing and that NeilN has been clear that he will block either of them for WP:Edit warring, I decided to follow through with reporting this case here. From Aubmn (talk) 11:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)what I have seen of Aubmn's behavior, I don't think he should be editing Wikipedia at all. Flyer22 (talk) 01:23, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately Flyer22 has a very negative attitude from the first with me, more than a year ago I began editing Marie Antoinette article who was on the watchlist of Flyer and who was left incomplete since 2012 and relying on one source Fraser, I was still an editor who didn't know about copyright s rules or a lot of rules in Wikepedia, I removed myself all the copyright violations and began editing by counting first on Fraser and completing the article specially the revolutionary period who was largely left unfinished since 2012. After that many editors came to work on the article , unfortunately the negative behaviour of Neb and Flyer22 let many of these editors to feel empowered and they wanted me completely out of the article after first proposing to work with me; krobison 13 was the first one, he himself acknowledge that he knew little about the subject , yet flyer and Neb wanted to give him complete control over the article, when we were left alone without the negativity and harrasment of Flyer and Neb, I was able to work with krobison who made hundred of edits in the article without interference from me, we have your differences who where solved when Krobison wanted to remove the 14 of July the most important event of that period. Blue Indigo refused to work with me from the beginning although I proposed to him twice on his talk page , he reverted 90% of my edits, I accepted 90 % of his edits (see per talk page). Aubmn (talk) 02:03, 7 August 2015 (UTC) I will talk of the last edit about the necklace scandal, Blue Indigo removed my contribution completely while I kept his contribution who was not based on the role of MA and when I tried to add my contribution without removing his, he removed it again as he felt empowered by Flyer22 (see SoS, SoS 2) on Flyer talk page, in addition to all that Blue Indigo compared me to a panzer division on Flyer22 talk page with it reference to Nazism without any reaction from Flyer22, know Flyer is saying Blue Indigo is stressed. Aubmn (talk) 02:14, 7 August 2015‎ (UTC) I welcomed the involvement of NeilN who is an objective person trying to find solutions in the Talk Page; not behaving and taking a negative attitude like Flyer22. Finally I want to say I committed mistakes sometimes out of ignorance of the rules sometimes because of anger but the fact remained , I completed a major article on a major personality which was left incomplete since 2012 and second I listened to many editors including Neb who told me the main weakness of this article is on it reliance on one source Fraser, I provided a solution to this problem by adding dozen of references to this article using the most important historians of MA like Castelot, Lever, Zweig and many others. I m not stressed like Blue Indigo because edit warring was mainly from his side and I believe in talking, cooperation and compromise ,,as an example I opened a new section in Napoleon article about education and I reached compromises with the editors there who were behaving in a positive way. Finally yes I committed some mistakes,I panicked sometimes not knowing about the rules but my intentions were good and positive, in the end I provided information's for a major article unfinished since 2012 and I removed its main weakness by giving it many sources instead of one. Know I trust NeilN and I m ready to follow any arbitration decided by him or her on MA talk page.Thank you.Aubmn (talk) 03:18, 7 August 2015 (UTC) Aubmn (talk) 02:45, 7 August 2015‎ (UTC)

Note: Anyone wanting to know how I initially addressed Aubmn can see User talk:Flyer22/Archive 17#Aubmn: Marie Antoinette article. Judge whether or not that matches up with his assertion that "Flyer22 has a very negative attitude from the first with me." As seen there, I asked him clearly about copyright violations, and he was dishonest. Unless he didn't know what copyright violations are, he should have known what I meant. The WP:Copyright violations policy is just adhering to what the law does. Yes, there are very likely WP:Copyright violations still in that article because of Aubmn. And any negative attitude I've had toward Aubmn has concerned his WP:Disruptive editing. Feel free to look for any way that I have been inappropriate with Aubmn. I will ignore his mischaracterization of me and others in this thread from here on out. I'll leave the rest of this to the community to handle. Flyer22 (talk) 02:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. The talk page shows a long history of problematic edits including copyright violations, and strong evidence of WP:OWN. The claim that text is "information" and therefore sacrosanct, is a hallmark of POV-pushers. I think a topic ban is in order. Guy (Help!) 08:54, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

First about copyright violations,when I knew the law, I removed not only those I put which Flyer and Neby acknowledged they couldn't find them, I also removed hundred of copyright violations and paraphrasing from the test which were present before my contributions.

Second what is called ownership is first simply the absence of many editors for years to deal with this article, krobison 13 made hundred of edits without any interruption from me, Blue Indigo made hundred of edits who were left unchanged, the problem is like the diamont necklace show he removed my contribution, I kept his.

Third, I added many references to an article who was counting on one reference.

Fourth, frankly I 'm tired, I have a very beautiful life outside Wikipedia, if 'm banned I'll stop my work as an editor and concentrate more on my real life which is the cornstone of my existense, because I never spent more than one hour or two on Wikepedia everyday; perhaps that is the best for me, anyway whatever happen I want to thank NeilN and all who have shown objectivity.Thank you all Aubmn (talk) 10:39, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Seriously? You have such a single purpose here than if you can't edit that singular article, you'd quit? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:57, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. From the MA Talk page, this appears to be an ongoing problem that should have ended months ago. Lucky he isn't getting proposed for another block, which apparently would have been well warranted. Softlavender (talk) 11:02, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

My friend Ricky I 'm tired, what do you expect, I finished a major article who was incomplete and depending on one source; I was lucky that I was able to complete it and also to provide many sources so the article don't 'depend on one source. I 'm not very interested in adding a few lines to other articles who are almost complete and to face the same scenarios. Unfortunately this is the kind of policy that is driving editors away from Wikipedia which is also losing a lot of readers. I' m going to Monte Carlo with my beautiful girlfriend and I don't need all of this. Thank you for all,a last notice NeilN said on MA talk page flyer22 put words from her mouth, I think that resume the person.Aubmn (talk) 11:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban as proposed, per WP:CIR and WP:DISRUPTSIGNS.- MrX 16:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

OK making the decision easier and making you not loose more time, first I want to thank all people of good faith who collaborated with me, second unfortunately Wikipedia is losing it appeal and all studies are showing that the reading of its articles is going down in a very dramatic way ; I 'm logging myself out of Wikipedia as an editor, I m not like Blue indigo afraid of being quicked out., I have a life better outside Gentlemen and Ladies, anyway wish you luck.

• Support up to 6 month topic ban (uninvolved non admin) There is some problematic behaviour. Suggest 6 months is long enough for this relatively inexperienced editor to try and learn more about WP and to stay out of trouble. I would also suggest that they learn not to focus on one specific article. AlbinoFerret 19:36, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry and COI Edits

There has been a lot of sockpuppetry and Conflict of Interest violations going on at the page La Salle College High School. Most of these edits seem to be the result of a "public relations" campaign by the school to clean up their image in the wake of a semi-recent scandal of a Priest at this Catholic School saying Mass by a swimming pool. Many Catholic newspapers and blogs covered the incident, so it is certainly notable and verifiable. The school is simply trying to clean up its image, a clear violation of Wikipedia Conflict of Interest policies. This is not the first time the school has withstood scrutiny for its editing and advertisement of its Wikipedia Page. As this talk page notes, all content put on the page in question is scrutinized by La Salle's director of communications, Mr. Christopher Caribello.

Additionally, there are two other subsets of problems that are notable, those being that
1.) The school is using sockpuppet accounts run by school, as well as directors of communication Christopher Caribello and Braden Bonner, and that
2.) These sockpuppet accounts are repeatedly violating the 3 Revert Rule.

Please investigate this and take any action that is appropriate, including possible protection, dispute mediation, and a sockpuppetry investigation, which has already been opened at the appropriate page. I also would like to propose a WP:Topic Ban against any sockpuppets from the school editing the school's page in light of the recent troubling public-relations and advertising that has been going on.

I believe these accounts are related:

Braden.bonner (Director of Communications Braden Bonner)
8605Cheltenham (Director of Communications Christopher Caribello) (8605 Cheltenham is the school's address)
206.169.237.5 (IP editor related to the school, possibly either Bonner or Caribello)
167.220.104.218 (Another IP editor related to the school, possibly either Bonner or Caribello)
2601:44:8501:b3e0:30f5:792c:7be7:df64 (Another IP editor related to the school)
50.199.67.44 (Another IP editor possibly related to the school)

70.192.131.83 (talk) 03:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The section on the "pool mass" had one ref which didn't mention the subject, and the remaining refs were all blogs or other unreliable sources, so it has been deleted again. - David Biddulph (talk) 03:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

... and I see that the sockpuppetry aspects have been raised at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Braden.bonner. - David Biddulph (talk) 04:16, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• David Biddulph, I encourage you to leave a note on that talk page in case this isn't over. Drmies (talk) 16:03, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Disruption and harassment by 8.39.228.13

8.39.228.13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

This IP made their first edit to Shooting of Samuel DuBose on 30 July. They had 25 total edits prior to that, going back to September of last year (assuming they are all the same person). Everything was cool for awhile after they joined the DuBose article. Then, around 3 August, their editing became very disruptive, with a lot of aggressive reverting and without waiting to build consensus for disputed changes. In article talk, I asked them to "Slow ... down. Please." When they continued, I issued a template warning for DE on 3 August, and another 12 hours later, referring to their then-current style as "steamrolling the article". I am not providing diffs for the events up to this point because they are not relevant to this report. Even if my handling of the situation was incorrect, and I don't feel it was, that would not justify or even mitigate what has followed.

The IP's editing style then became less aggressive, and I have had no complaints about it since then. However, the IP started an article talk thread about biased editing by other editors, specifically me, and was advised by another editor to observe WP:AGF. Their tone in discussion has often been confrontational, with comments like, You've been proven wrong. Care to edit the article to reflect the truth, or should I? I won't say the IP is WP:NOTHERE, but they are not here to collaborate peacefully and cooperatively.

But the main reason I'm making this report is that the IP has continued their article talk criticisms of me, which are both unfounded and inappropriate, amounting to harassment. They have accused me in article talk of "dominating" discussion and POV-pushing, of "whitewashing". They started a second thread in article talk specifically about me, presenting statistics that apparently show that I have the highest edit count for that article and its talk page, as if that's something to be ashamed of (I'll take their word for it, as I didn't even bother to look at the statistics due to the patently ridiculous nature of the assertion). The thread was promptly closed as inappropriate use of article talk. As far as I know there is no limit on discussion on an article talk page, nor does the community recognize a concept of over-participation. I certainly do not exhibit any WP:OWN behavior in that article or any other, and I have never had any complaints about POV-pushing. The IP has repeatedly been advised by me and others to take any misconduct complaints about me to this page or user talk, but they have not done so. As far as I know, they are completely alone in their opinions about my participation, and that includes multiple experienced editors actively involved with the article, including MrX, Gaijin42, and Cwobeel. In any case, I'm not here to defend myself, this report is not about me, and any user is free to open a separate thread about my behavior.

Yesterday I posted on the IP's user talk page about the harassment, and also about WP:NOTFORUM after they took an RfC into off-topic discussion about bias in Wikipedia editing. I suggested that they consult an uninvolved third party about the whole issue. The response was more angry accusations and this threat: If you do not cease your whitewashing, I plan on compiling a list of specific instances of whitewashing in that article, publishing it in a separate Talk section in that article, and inviting others whose edits you have repeatedly reverted in other similar articles that you have disproportionately dominated (for example, in Shooting of Michael Brown), to weigh in with their feedback.

The IP's behavior is completely inappropriate, they have been an overall disruptive presence at an article that enjoyed relative peace before they arrived, warnings have not had any effect, and I don't see this situation getting any better by itself. So I am requesting a short block.

1 - Article talk: Starting a talk thread: "Biased application of 'alleged'" naming me as the main culprit

2 - Article talk: "You've been proven wrong. Care to edit the article to reflect the truth, or should I?"

3 - Article talk: Starting a talk thread: "Disproportionate number of edits made by Mandruss"

4 - Addition to the above thread: "I should note that your editing of this Talk page is even more disproportionate."

5 - Article talk: Direct accusation of biased editing against me, in the RfC

User talk:8.39.228.13 ―Mandruss ☎ 04:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

If not a block, the IP should at least receive a final warning to stop personalizing content disputes, and to use to proper channels for addressing alleged conduct issues. Secondary concerns are Original research and WP:NOTAFORUM, which the IP has been previously warned about as well. - MrX 15:23, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Response

Zero evidence of disruptive editing to the article has been provided. Mandruss claims that "they are not relevant to this report", but nothing could be more relevant. Accusations of disruptive article editing should be accompanied by links to article edit diffs. If no such links can be provided, then such an accusation should be retracted.

Mandruss has pursued an agenda of whitewashing the Shooting of Samuel DuBose article, repeatedly reverting well sourced claims that present one of the article subjects in a negative light. He has even stated about one of the article subjects: ""Frankly his history looks terrible, especially juxtaposed with Tensing's (aside from being indicted for murder, that is), and the more we say the worse that gets."" [314]. Our job is to honestly report on the events that the article covers, and not conceal relevant information because "the more we say the worse it gets". I am not completely alone in my concern. For example, Gaijin42, who is mentioned above, said: ""Presenting information that looks poorly on DuBose is not an attempt to shift blame, it is honest reporting, and hiding it makes it look like we are trying to whitewash him/bandwagon on Tensing""[315].

Mandruss was the first to personally call me out by username/ip in the article's Talk section, under the "8.39.228.13 edit" section [316]. When I mentioned in a talk section that a disproportionate number of the edits were made by him, I also used it as an opportunity to repeatedly praise Mandruss, and encourage others to increase their editing activity to balance out the voice in the article.[317]. Mandruss characterized this as a "spurious attack thread" on my Talk page.[318]. When I asked him to substantiate this claim by pointing out what in that section was spurious, he didn't respond.

Mandruss has participated in WikiBullying by accusing me of steamrolling the article with zero substantiation, and threatening me with having my edit privileges revoked[319], while himself making a disproportionate number of edits on both the article and the talk page (29% of the edits to the article[320], and 46% of the edits to the Talk page[321]). I have refused to participate in aggressively editing or reverting the article, instead choosing to state my concerns on the Talk page.

I would be happy to compile a list of diffs documenting the whitewashing of this article.

Finally, I again request that diffs evidencing disruptive editing to the article by me be provided to substantiate the claim that I have participated in such activity. Thank you for considering my position. - 8.39.228.13 (talk) 19:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

As I said above, any issues about my behavior should be discussed separately and independently from those about yours. Even if you had any valid reason for complaint, one does not justify or excuse the other, and, as my parents taught me, two wrongs don't make a right. You steadfastly refused to come here with your complaints until you needed them to defend yourself here, to divert discussion from the issue at hand in this thread. I refuse to defend myself in this report, beyond what I have already said. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

As your behavior is relevant to this conflict, and specifically to the accusations you have made against me, I feel it is fair and appropriate to mention that behavior here. Again, I encourage you to provide diffs to substantiate your claim that I have made disruptive edits to the article. - 8.39.228.13 (talk) 19:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, I decline, for the reasons stated. As I'm well aware that far too many of these ANI threads devolve into unproductive and extended pissing matches, I'll now leave this with the community and trust that the right thing will be done. Others are welcome to ping me if further input from me is required. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat

Here, an anonymous editor has threatened me by saying that they will take legal action against me if I revert their edits again. Please block that IP. Here, I reverted their edits because they are trying to erase/hide a name. Now they replaced the name with a nickname. Supdiop (Talk🔹Contribs) 05:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The editor is currently under a 31-hour block but the editor is in the right in regards to WP:BLP. Saying that people are or were members of a band could be considered controversial (although this IP address may just care about marketing more than that). Under that basis, I've removed all the band members until someone can provide sources for them. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 11:04, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

List of highest grossest Indian films

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Peopl n Ed to be aware that an admin has protected a page and continues to misuse his tools to edit through the protection. That blatant Misuse deserves no use than someone stopping the admin right now. The page is fully protected yet Admin Ricky81682 who started an RFC on the page and made his bias clear has never the less continue and edit through the protection. When called to task on his misuse of the tools, marchoctober gets repeatedly threatened and his discussion hidden away.

This is unacceptable behavior. As other editors have pointed out, his antics are clearly part of a grand scheme to belittle and abuse the Telugu people behind the cloud of inflating the alleged greatness of the Tamil "film industry" rather than repudiating the lies that are coming out. Admins are required to be treated as equals and yet ever attempt to acknowledge that the people at the RFC have made it clear that Baahuabali has nothing to do with Tamils has been ignored in favor of round after round of games.

We need to ban Ricky81682 from further disrupting the List of highest grossing Indian films and to allow those who actually understand how Indian film are made to work and correct the distortion and lies coming from the Tamils. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.171.122.101 (talk) 07:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

It is admitted here that the admin has a racist agenda to remove the director column from the tables so the public will be mislead when the name of the greatest Telugu director is hidden. This kind of fascist re-writing of history is reminiscent of Stalin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.171.122.101 (talk) 07:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can general sanctions be imposed here

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Question: we had Wikipedia:General sanctions/South Asian social groups a while back that related to all pages with content related to social groups under general sanctions. This isn't a social group page (it's just a list of films) but the talk page classification arguments are clearly related to Indian social groups so I'm wondering if an outside admins could consider general sanctions for some of the more nasty WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality issues we have there. The vast majority of people are very pleasant and trying to find a way to help spread the word about their individual community's top films (which is cool to learn about) but we need something more. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The numerous and repeated antics here should show that it's a particular issue for some people. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Could be, but it's a bit of a stretch as it'd cover only part of the issue. However. WP:ARBIPA is broad enough to cover this issue which spans linguistic content and behavioral disruption. I've issued a DS-Alert for ARBIPA to Marchoctober. —SpacemanSpiff 17:13, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Marchoctober

Edit warring By Ricky81682 Please see diffs:

diff1 diff2 diff3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marchoctober (talk • contribs) 07:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Comments by Ricky81682

Please see this diff1 diff2

Content from this edit. I'd like to suggest WP:BOOMERANG in play here. Marchoctober is an admitted user who's past user name was blocked before for edit warring, has been warned about canvassing here, has a terrible WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality here ("these editors are all biased") and [322] ("The only way for me is to fight as hard as I can"), as that talk page shows. There's repeated incivility against administrators here and onward. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• As to the alleged "Ethnic slurs" (the second diff following a comment by Marchoctober that "The above users all are biased users") that shows the extent of the incivility issues. At the highest grossing Indian films articles, Marchoctober has started roughly 1, 2, 3 (a repeat of one), 4 discussions separate from the long-winded RFC all arguing to remove Baahubali from being classified as Tamil in any manner. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Firstly my last username has not been blocked! and I had lost my account login information so I created a new account, go check for logs the previous account was not blocked. Marchoctober (talk) 17:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Ricky81682 has a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and he managed to pass on the same mentality into the community with others mimicing him in order to defend themselves, please see these diff1, diff2 Marchoctober (talk) 17:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Marchoctober, you have been given feedback about your contributions to the talk-page and complaints about Ricky81682 by me (after you specifically pinged me), and three other uninvolved admins User:NeilN, User:SpacemanSpiff and User:Cyphoidbomb. Please drop the stick or a topic ban looks likely. Abecedare (talk) 17:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ideloctober refuses to read or learn about Wikipedia Policy over on the Frankfurt School talk page.

Once again there's an obtrusive editor over on the Frankfurt School talk page causing problems. The user is Ideloctober (talk) - all the usual symptoms are present: Brand new account. Demands the article be changed without providing any sources for their arguments or referring to any Wikipedia policies. Refuses to even visit the talk page guidelines. Has decided Wikipedia is part of a Marxist conspiracy, and is now putting in repeated edit requests and generally refusing to work with others (resistant to all attempts at explaining the purpose of Wikipedia's policies, even from editors more sympathetic to their personal viewpoint). Any aid in restricting this uncooperative editor from further disrupting the talk page would be appreciated. --Jobrot (talk) 08:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Oh, cool, you went here too. I never said Wikipedia was a "Marxist conspiracy", I said that you being given sole editing privileges on the article, while being an outspoken pro-Marxist Liberal who stated that Capitalism would not be permitted to be discussed in a positive way, is extremely biased and unfair. Calling the article a conspiracy theory has caused mass amounts of mockery and jeering by other groups and forums, as it's one of the most blatantly biased and skewed viewpoints I've ever seen on this website in my 10+ years of anonymous or accounted editing here. You, a Marxist, are the only one allowed to make changes to a section about Cultural Marxism, and forbid anyone from calling it more than an anti-semitic racist conspiracy theory. Your bias is sickening, and I suggest your editing privileges on said article be revoked, and that you be required to follow by the same rules you preach to the others. Your personal attacks (calling me and another anti-Semites for requesting a title edit?????) as well as your overt bias are both not permitted on Wikipedia. You are accomplishing nothing by attacking me and making fraudulent edits other than proving Leftist-Marxists as yourself are entirely opposed to free, unbiased speech and, as Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol, Che, Castro, Sung, Jong-il, Jong-un, and every other Communist leader in history did, you too prefer censorship and false sources in order to promote your own agenda. That much is obvious. Ideloctober (talk) 09:16, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I remind you that On the Internet, nobody knows you're a Marxist and you're not helping yourself attacking other editor's alleged bias. For both sides, diffs would be helpful. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Ideloctober, without citing any sources, your arguments on the Frankfurt School talk page simply come across as whining. You say you have been on Wikipedia for years, so one would hope you're familiar with the concept of verifiability. And you use the phrase "neutral", so one would hope you understand that neutrality means reflecting what is written in reliable sources. Since you have provided no sources of your own, and given no serious comment on sources currently used, all you've done is expressed your personal displeasure with the viewpoints present in the article. Continuing in this manner will inevitably lead to your being blocked or banned from Wikipedia, although continuing to assail Jobrot on a personal level may lead to that even sooner. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I never called you an anti-semite. I have in fact explicitly stated that the conspiracy theory doesn't always boil down to anti-semitism (diff of that). Also I've said specifically that I don't have any special privileges here on Wikipedia (diff of that). I was certainly never given "sole editing privileges on the article" and that's not something likely to happen on Wikipedia. Please learn to respect Wikipedia's policies and processes if you wish to contribute.

As for Wikipedia inhibiting your free speech - Wikipedia is not a SOAPBOX for your free speech. Speech on Wikipedia is restricted to what adheres to Wikipedia's policies and sourcing requirements... which are there to ensure accuracy and verifiability. NOT to facilitate your personal opinions - or for that matter, MY personal opinions. --Jobrot (talk) 10:16, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Someguy1221 and Ricky81682 hit the nail on the head. The rhetoric and unsubstantiated claims made by Ideloctober here on this page are troubling. When you accuse someone of making racist (or other types of slurs) comments, you should really provide the links to back that up. I personally could not find that. And when incredibly incorrect statements like an editor being given "sole editing privileges on the article" are made, that really hurts your credibility. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 17:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• I was contemplating coming here too about "Ideloctober"(who probably also edits logged out with 74.129.76.107. The edits at the George Lincoln Rockwell(An American Nazi) are also problematic. The sources used and edits there are definitely not compatible with Wiki policies. I don't believe any amount of discussion will persuade this editor. Dave Dial (talk) 14:47, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Cotap Spamming

I would like a couple of more eyes on an article if you can, the Cotap article. Over the last six months or so a series of IPs and low time registered accounts have been adding information on a "controversy" around this company spamming emails to people and using either no sources or completely unreliable sources to support this position. I feel this is over A) Undue weight and B) completely badly sourced. Since I've been reverting these additions, and my "connection" to the company (i.e. none) is now being questioned, I believe should bow out of the article to avoid drama and any possibility of edit warring in case I'm viewing it wrong. Could someone else give it a drive by and maybe chime in with their view? I did protect the article a couple of times due to the roving IP edits, and it is currently protected against non-approved users. Canterbury Tail talk 11:53, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

My advice is not to abandon the article unless you want the spammers/disruptors to win. If the information has merit, they are welcome to find WP:RS that reports it. If not, it's not appropriate. Wikipedia isn't Google or a newspaper, and doesn't report every claim that shows up on Google. These IPs and whatnot (and even the reports on forums and Google) could also be competitors looking to slander the company. Softlavender (talk) 12:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm the one who wrote the "Spamming controversy" section on the Cotap page. As I've stated in the article's "Talk" page, I have no connection to the company, except as a sysadmin of an email domain which they have targeted with their UCE (Unsolicited Commercial Email, aka SPAM). Additionally, I want to state that I have absolutely no relation to any of the company's competitors, and also that I have no axe to grind with the company; my motivation for writing the aforementioned section is that I find it worthwhile (and enhancing to Wikipedia as a whole) to report on the company's current affairs and practices, as it's the case with the issue at hand. All the edits I did to the page was while logged in with my Wikipedia id, so I do not understand what you mean by "roving IP edits". I also want to note that I have a long story as a Wikipedia contributor (since 2006, please check my contributions page), and I want what is best for Wikipedia; I think it's unfair to imply that I'm a disruptor/slanderer/spammer. Regarding adherence to WP:RS, please note that it offers (as of necessity) only general advice on what is permissible or not, to quote: "[...]Internet forum postings, or tweets—are largely not acceptable" (emphasis mine); the only part of the WP:RS that mentions forums is regarding material on living persons, which is not the case here, and I also took care to list other references which are not forums; please see the paragraph I just added to the article's talk page further explaining my reasoning in this regard. As a final (for now) note, I ask that you please refrain from deleting the section I've added while we are discussing it. Thanks for your time and consideration. Durval (talk) 13:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

(Point of note, according to WP:BRD once you've added content and it's been removed (by several users) you should not add it in again until agreement has been reached, not continue to add it and tell others not to remove it.) According to the history there are many IP addresses adding in the same content and now 5 different users have removed this content. In order for this material to be included in Wikipedia you need to have reliable sources for A) the fact it is happening, B) that it is widespread and C) that it is considered a controversy that is discussed by independent third party sources and D) something more than trivia. Canterbury Tail talk 14:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I see only two other users (besides yourself) removing the section, and those other two only happened in the last few minutes/hours after you asked other editors for help here. So I'm refraining from undoing the removals now as per WP:BRD, but I ask other editors who are reading this to please add it on my behalf. On a final (for now) note, I point that you (and the other editors helping you) have not answered my defense of the sources used, which I posted in the article's talk page, and just went on and removed it again. I think this is undue censorship, and that the right thing to do is to keep the section up while it's still being discussed. Again, thanks for yout time and consideration. Durval (talk) 14:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

That isn't how things work here, Durval. We need a solid source for information like that, not to mention that, as you've been told, continuing to re-add the section after it has been removed is edit-warring, which can and does regularly result in a block. Also, I suggest reading WP:Sock puppetry#Meatpuppetry before you continue your canvassing off-wiki; at this point all you're going to do is waste admins' time and get the article semi-protected to stop your little power-play. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 16:54, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

<procedural note. User:Durval has solicited offsite encouragement for people to edit war on this topic. See the thread here.> Canterbury Tail talk 15:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I will note that two SPAs showed up on the newly-minted AfD discussion. One is an IP; the other is a registered user; both have only ever made edits related to Cotap. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 17:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• I'm interested to hear what other admins think of the off-wiki canvassing signaled by Canterbury Tail. I consider that blockable. Drmies (talk) 17:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

While Durval has been here more than long enough to know the rules, I wouldn't call for a block on it (despite the fact that they mention I've been calling to have them blocked, which hasn't happened.) I think that was a heat of the moment and can assume good faith. Canterbury Tail talk 17:34, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• I'm of the old school, I suppose. Durval, it might be interesting to hear your comment. In my opinion, such canvassing has the potential of leading to great disruption. Drmies (talk) 17:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

BLP violations, battlegound, and SPA behavior by Plazat

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Plazat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Roosh V (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This user has been editing on Roosh V almost exclusively. They have been edit warring over various paragraphs on the page. The impetus for this ANI, however, is their behavior today. They've made statements that were BLP violations ([323]) and accused editors of being paid by the article's subject and "roosh fans" ([324], [325]). They claim I'm "being investigated" as well ([326], [327]). Requesting user be blocked and possibly topic banned. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:41, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

A few more edit summaries to consider: [328], [329], [330]. I've asked an admin via email that another edit be REVDELed for libel as well (won't link here). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:47, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

probably missed this edit as I reverted it.--Peaceworld 16:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

EvergreenFir is editing RooshV page everyday, editing out information about Roosh from Anti Defamation League (who called Daryush Valizadeh

− to be an anti semite, on their Extremists and Terrorst list) .

− − EvergreenFir is also straight out lying about the number of signatures that the change petition against RooshV

− gathered, the petition has 16550 signatures, but EvergreenFir writes that it has only 12,550.

− − EvergreenFir is simply cutting out on the exclusive base of making a proven (Redacted)

− Daryush Valizadeh look good. Daryush Valizadeh is on SPLC and ADL watchlist.

− − (Redacted) − in order to edit out daily reliable information about RooshV and to lie about RooshV, as shown above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plazat (talk • contribs) 16:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I have redacted an unsupported and most certainly false personal attack from the above post and suggest that Plazat be blocked if he continues to level such nonsensical, untrue claims about Wikipedia editors. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@NorthBySouthBaranof: Thank you. Would you consider redacting part of the fifth line too per WP:LIBEL? did it myself now that the user is indefed. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:57, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• I've blocked the user indef for their now-redacted edits. Nakon 16:57, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Nakon: thank you! EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:59, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Guy Fawkes Night

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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An edit war has broken out on Talk:Guy Fawkes Night over the hatting of a comment (see the guidance in Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Editing comments and in the documents templates such as {{Hat}}). Please could an uninvolved administrator take a look. -- PBS (talk) 20:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

At first, this looks like a misplaced edit that should have been done at WP:AN3. However, there are lots of civility issues in that discussion.

For example, this edit summary, this incivility and and ownership from Eric Corbett, Cassianto, Parrot of Doom and J3Mrs there was a previously opened case by a sock that was dismissed on those grounds - maybe too hasty.--Müdigkeit (talk) 20:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I suggest an admin speedy close this. Another chance for the civility brigade to cause trouble.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Long term pattern of POV edits and edit warring by User:Jimjilin

I started to post this to a current thread about Jimjilin at 3RR (opened by David Gerard), but it's really more appropriate for ANI.

Jimjilin and I have some overlapping interests it seems, because I keep coming across a reliable pattern of POV edits followed by edit warring over those edits, sometimes over the course of many months. Though he's been blocked for edit warring in the past, he's a relatively experienced Wikipedian and rarely breaches 3RR. Airborne84 opened an ANI thread about him in December, but other than a comment from Xcuref1endx it did not attract attention or result in any action.

The current 3RR report concerns Jerry Coyne. Here are some other examples:

• At Promiscuity: sustaining multiple edit wars. One is over adding a statement about promiscuity and health: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Another (related) is edit warring to downplay a source which that says the opposite of the claim he wants to press, adding poor sources to contradict one that passes WP:MEDRS, and alleging it's other people mischaracterizing the source: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
• There are other examples in many, many articles Jimjilin has edited: Paul Singer (businessman), Thomas Piketty, Criticisms of Marxism, Michel Foucault, Moral panic, Cecile Richards...
• An edit war at Michael Kempner led Mosmof to open this thread at RSN a couple months ago. In that article Jimjilin added the same thing 12 times between October 2014 and June 2015: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

I believe Jimjilin has some productive contributions to some articles, and I truly hate bringing people here (it's only happened a couple times before), but POV and edit warring constitute a shockingly high percentage of his edits and, judging by past blocks and the long, long list of warnings/comments at his user talk page, there does not look to be any indication of the behavior stopping. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:43, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

That...are a lot of warnings. Copyright violation, edit wars, POV edits...

The diffs and contributions show extensive disruptive editing, and the talk page shows a complete ignorance of warnings.

How did that user get so many warnings without being blocked?

I'd say infinite siteban for long-term disruptive editing, including copyright infringements, ignoring a total number of fourty warnings...--Müdigkeit (talk) 20:56, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

As mentioned above, I've had limited interaction with Jimjilin because of a content dispute. I think what complicates things is that the user is actually operating in good faith and doesn't seem to see a distinction between POV and fact, so like Rhododendrites, I don't want to see a long-term block. That said, Jimjilin has been blocked before and all the warnings and friendly links to guideline pages are obviously not making a difference. Mosmof (talk) 21:24, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Mosmof: No, I don't believe he's acting in good faith at all. He has made some productive contributions, yes, but the reason I brought the issue here is because of an egregious extent of edit warring despite being warned/advised many times; continuous WP:IDHT as displayed through editing, edit summaries, and talk page posts; [less frequent] misrepresentation of other people's arguments or [claiming/feigning] ignorance as an excuse to continue edit warring (e.g. ~"this satisfies your concern" or ~"let's just go by what the source says" while changing the text to a POV interpretation of the source); clear POV nature of a large percentage of his edits (often tacking on a line of "criticism" based on a single/poor source after well-sourced content); and having to be told everything repeatedly every time, just for him to do the same thing months later. As I said, I hate bringing people to ANI, largely because I can find cause to assume good faith on some level or because the issues are compartmentalized in some way, but after months/years of the same, Jimjilin has exhausted that AGF. It's possible something like a 0RR could solve the biggest problems (not 1RR as he's shown a willingness to continue an edit war over long, long periods of time), but I think that would just delay the inevitable. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:44, 7 August 2015 (UTC)