Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard

Welcome — post issues of interest to administrators.

For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. If you are new, try the Wikipedia:Teahouse instead. Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead use Wikipedia:Requests for oversight. For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent. Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here. Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. If opening a close appeal, use {{RfC closure review}} When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Sections inactive for over seven days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search) Start a new discussion

"WP:CR" redirects here. You may be looking for Wikipedia:Cleanup resources, Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects, Wikipedia:Copyrights, Wikipedia:Competence is required, Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and Wikipedia:Content removal.

"WP:ANC" redirects here. You may be looking for Wikipedia:Assume no clue.

You may want to increment {{Archive basics}} to |counter= 38 as Wikipedia:Closure requests/Archive 37 is larger than the recommended 150Kb.

Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Wikipedia discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

Do not list discussions where consensus is clear. If you feel the need to close them, do it yourself.

Move on – do not wait for someone to state the obvious. In some cases, it is appropriate to close a discussion with a clear outcome early to save our time.

Do not post here to rush the closure. Also, only do so when the discussion has stabilised.

On the other hand, if the discussion has much activity and the outcome isn't very obvious, you should let it play out by itself. We want issues to be discussed well. Do not continue the discussion here.

There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

When the discussion is ready to be closed and the outcome is not obvious, you can submit a brief and neutrally worded request for closure.

Include a link to the discussion itself and the {{Initiated}} template at the beginning of the request. A helper script can make listing easier. Move discussions go in the 'other types' section.

Any uninvolved editor may close most discussions, so long as they are prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale.

Closing discussions carries responsibility, doubly so if the area is contentious. You should be familiar with all policies and guidelines that could apply to the given discussion (consult your draft closure at the discussions for discussion page if unsure). Be prepared to fully answer questions about the closure or the underlying policies, and to provide advice about where to discuss any remaining concerns that editors may have.

Non-admins can close most discussions. Admins may not overturn your non-admin closures just because you are not an admin, and this is not normally in itself a problem at reviews. Still, there are caveats. You may not close discussions as an unregistered user, or where implementing the closure would need tools or edit permissions you do not have access to. Articles for deletion and move discussion processes have more rules for non-admins to follow.

Technical instructions for closers

Please append {{Doing}} to the discussion's entry you are closing so that no one duplicates your effort. When finished, replace it with {{Close}} or {{Done}} and an optional note, and consider sending a {{Ping}} to the editor who placed the request. Where a formal closure is not needed, reply with {{Not done}}. After addressing a request, please mark the {{Initiated}} template with |done=yes. ClueBot III will automatically archive requests marked with {{Already done}}, {{Close}}, {{Done}} {{Not done}}, and {{Resolved}}.

If you want to formally challenge and appeal the closure, do not start the discussion here. Instead follow advice at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.

Other areas tracking old discussions

• Wikipedia:Requested moves#Elapsed listings
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old
• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion
• Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Awaiting closure
• Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#Old discussions
• Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion#Old business
• Wikipedia:Proposed mergers/Log
• Wikipedia:Proposed article splits

Administrative discussions

ANI thread concerning Yasuke

(Initiated 23 days ago on 2 July 2024) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents § Talk: Yasuke has on-going issues has continued to grow, including significant portions of content discussion (especially since Talk:Yasuke was ec-protected) and accusations of BLP violations, among other problems. Could probably be handled one sub-discussion at a time. --JBL (talk) 17:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Closure review of The Telegraph RfC

(Initiated 17 days ago on 9 July 2024) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard § RfC closure review request at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RFC: The Telegraph on trans issues's discussion seems to have died down. Hopefully I've put this in the correct section. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 16:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

This discussion is a huge headache. I'll keep working on it as I have time, but if somebody else wants to close this before I do, I won't complain. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 02:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Requests for comment

RFA2024, Phase II discussions

Hi! Closers are requested for the following three discussion:

• (Initiated 84 days ago on 2 May 2024) Administrator recall
• (Initiated 82 days ago on 5 May 2024) Designated RfA monitors
• (Initiated 82 days ago on 5 May 2024) Reminder of civility norms at RfA

Many thanks in advance! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

If re-requesting closure at WP:AN isn't necessary, then how about different various closers for cerain section(s)? I don't mind one or two closers for one part or another or more. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

During Phase I of RFA2024, we had ended up having multiple closers for different RFCs, even the non-obvious ones. I think different people closing subparts of this should be acceptable Soni (talk) 09:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Bumping this as an important discussion very much in need of and very much overdue for a formal closure. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:RSN#RfC: The Times of India

(Initiated 38 days ago on 17 June 2024) Discussion appears ready for a close. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:24, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: The Dorchester Review

(Initiated 35 days ago on 21 June 2024) RFC template has expired and conversation has died down. TarnishedPath^talk 01:15, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Titles of European monarchs

(Initiated 33 days ago on 22 June 2024) - I thank the Wikipedia community for being so willing to discuss this topic very extensively. Because 30 days have passed and requested moves in this topic area are already being opened (For reference, a diff of most recent edit to the conversation in question), I would encourage an uninvolved editor to determine if this discussion is ready for closure. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

(Also, apologies if I have done something incorrectly. This is my first time filing such a request.) AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

There is ongoing discussion there as to whether a closer for that discussion is necessary or desirable. I would suggest to wait and see how that plays out.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Reliability_of_Thomas_Lockley

(Initiated 23 days ago on 2 July 2024) - The original topic (Lockley's book, "African Samurai: The True Story of Yasuke, a Legendary Black Warrior in Feudal Japan") has not been the focus of discussion since the first few days of the RFC when it seemed to reach a concensus. The book in question is no longer cited by the Yasuke page and has been replaced by several other sources of higher quality. Since then the subject of the RSN has shifted to an extension of Talk:Yasuke and has seen many SPA one post accounts hijack the discussion on the source to commit BLP violations towards Thomas Lockley almost exclusively citing Twitter. Given that the general discussion that was occuring has shifted back to [Talk:Yasuke] as well as the continued uptick in SPA's committing NOTHERE and BLP violations on the RSN, as well as the source in question is no longer being used - I think closure is reasonable. Relm (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Proposal to revise CSD R3

(Initiated 17 days ago on 9 July 2024) Poster withdrew the RfC but due to the language used, I think a summary by an WP:UNINVOLVED editor would be preferable. Nickps (talk) 20:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Total
CfD	0	0	2	34	36
TfD	0	0	0	11	11
MfD	0	0	0	2	2
FfD	0	0	0	0	0
RfD	0	0	1	29	30
AfD	0	0	0	0	0

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 12#IRC +10414

(Initiated 60 days ago on 26 May 2024) This RfD has been open for over a month. SevenSpheres (talk) 20:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Twitter_under_Elon_Musk#Requested_move_24_May_2024

(Initiated 62 days ago on 24 May 2024) Originally closed 3 June 2024, relisted following move review on 17 June 2024 (34 days ago). Last comment was only 2 days ago, but comments have been trickling in pretty slowly for weeks. Likely requires a decently experienced closer. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 01:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive 194#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS

(Initiated 59 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing...— Frostly (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Frostly Are you still planning on doing this? Soni (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Soni, yes - have drafted close and will post by the end of today. Thanks! — Frostly (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 13:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Srebrenica massacre#Requested_move_2_June_2024

(Initiated 54 days ago on 2 June 2024), Tom B (talk) 09:51, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

The move was closed with no rationale, so someone immediately set-up a move review: WP:Move_review/Log/2024_July#Srebrenica_massacre. I don't know if that means it needs to be closed here or not, thank you, Tom B (talk) 09:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2024 Nuseirat_rescue operation#Proposed_merge_of_Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre_into_2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation

(Initiated 47 days ago on 8 June 2024) Since much of the discussion centers on the title of the article rather than its content, the closer should also take into account the requested move immediately below on the talk page. Smyth (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

If the closer finds "no consensus", I have proposed this route in which a discussion on merger and RM can happen simultaneously to give clearer consensus.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 111#When can titles contain "massacre"?

(Initiated 40 days ago on 16 June 2024), last comment was 24 June 2024. Is there consensus in this discussion (if any) on when the word "massacre" is appropriate in an article, especially from a WP:NPOv perspective.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2024 July#ABC News (United States)

(Initiated 22 days ago on 4 July 2024) No new comments in a few days. May be ripe for closure. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection

Report

Pages recently put under extended confirmed protection (36 out of 8105 total) () WATCH Page Protected Expiry Type Summary Admin Draft:Raditya Adi 2024-07-26 11:56 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Isabelle Belato A Fazenda 16 2024-07-26 11:49 indefinite edit Persistent sock puppetry; See deleted history Isabelle Belato Padmanabh Singh 2024-07-26 04:01 indefinite edit,move Persistent disruptive editing and addition of unsourced and potentially COI content; WP:CT/IPA Abecedare Adam Tactical Group 2024-07-26 02:54 indefinite edit,move WP:RUSUKR; requested at WP:RfPP Elli Ukraine Defense Contact Group 2024-07-26 02:53 indefinite edit,move WP:RUSUKR; requested at WP:RfPP Elli Ukrainian Marine Corps 2024-07-26 02:53 indefinite edit,move WP:RUSUKR; requested at WP:RfPP Elli 414th Strike Drone Regiment 2024-07-26 02:53 indefinite edit,move WP:RUSUKR; requested at WP:RfPP Elli 24th Mechanized Brigade (Ukraine) 2024-07-26 02:52 indefinite edit,move WP:RUSUKR; requested at WP:RfPP Elli 92nd Assault Brigade (Ukraine) 2024-07-26 02:51 indefinite edit,move WP:RUSUKR; requested at WP:RfPP Elli July 2024 Khan Yunis attack 2024-07-25 23:03 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: WP:PIA, WP:ECR El C Black people 2024-07-25 22:11 indefinite edit Persistent sock puppetry; Long term vandalism; requested at WP:RfPP Isabelle Belato National Iranian American Council 2024-07-25 21:03 2024-10-25 20:58 edit,move upgrading to ECP per request Daniel Case Portal:Current events/2024 July 24 2024-07-25 18:22 2025-01-25 18:22 edit,move Contentious topic restriction: WP:PIA, WP:ECR (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#General sanctions upon related content) El C Template:Genocide navbox 2024-07-25 17:49 2025-07-25 17:49 edit,move Arbitration enforcement ScottishFinnishRadish List of highest-grossing films 2024-07-25 15:36 indefinite edit,move note: I upgraded protection to WP:ECP in 2019 and downgraded it back to WP:SEMI in 2023. However, reliability issues persist (including known Box Office Mojo errors), so protection has been re-upgraded for the foreseeable El C Talk:Plenary Committee of the American Communist Party 2024-07-25 02:36 indefinite create Disruptive recreation of a deleted article under closely related name. Ad Orientem Sevens Football 2024-07-24 16:42 2025-07-04 17:49 move Persistent sock puppetry Elli Timeline of the Israel–Hamas war (13 July 2024 – present) 2024-07-24 16:32 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement; requested at WP:RfPP Elli Background to the Israel–Hamas war 2024-07-24 11:08 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement ScottishFinnishRadish Jadaun (clan) 2024-07-24 05:22 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; WP:GSCASTE Abecedare Executions and assassinations during the Israel–Hamas war 2024-07-24 04:06 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case American Communist Party 2024-07-24 03:59 indefinite edit,move Repeated efforts to convert redirect into an article contrary to recent AfD consensus. Ad Orientem Benny Morris 2024-07-24 03:35 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Weenus 2024-07-23 22:09 indefinite edit,move Vandalism target Anachronist Weenis 2024-07-23 22:08 indefinite edit,move Vandalism target Anachronist Wenus 2024-07-23 22:08 indefinite edit,move Vandalism target Anachronist Katherine Franke 2024-07-23 21:23 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Draft:Real Malabar FC 2024-07-23 21:20 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated: per RFPP suggestion Daniel Case Gaur Brahmins 2024-07-23 13:06 indefinite edit,move Persistent sockpuppetry Doug Weller Rathore dynasty 2024-07-23 03:16 2024-10-23 03:16 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry Abecedare Rathore (Rajput clan) 2024-07-23 03:13 indefinite edit Persistent sock puppetry; WP:GSCASTE Abecedare Mughal–Rajput wars 2024-07-22 21:43 indefinite edit Persistent sock puppetry; will log it under WP:GCASTE given the usual Rajput-related sockpuppetry and warring Abecedare Branches of Rashtrakuta dynasty 2024-07-22 21:38 2025-07-22 21:38 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; warring sock farms Abecedare Baglana 2024-07-22 21:37 2025-07-22 21:37 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; warring sock-farms Abecedare Second Battle of Shuja'iyya (2024) 2024-07-22 21:05 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Kamala Harris 2024 presidential campaign 2024-07-22 19:45 indefinite edit,move Make move protection following edit protection per this RfPP request Favonian

WP:AN/CXT

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is consensus to move forward with Mathglot's proposal (see #Proposal), which will cause a mass deletion of the pages on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review, with the option to save certain pages from deletion within a two-week window. As part of the proposal, there is also a consensus to amend WP:X2 in the manner S Marshall specifies in this edit.

Opposition to this change revolved around the argument that the articles which would qualify for mass deletion should be improved instead of deleted. Elinruby proposed alternatively that we should focus on recruiting editors fluent in foreign languages, Mathglot initially proposed to mass-draftify the articles instead of deleting, and Sam Walton argued that the articles contained valid content that didn't deserve mass deletion.

A majority of other editors, however, argued that many of the articles involved are poorly sourced BLPs that have the potential to harm their subjects if left unimproved. Given the large number of articles and low number of editors involved, it will likely be months before these articles are improved. Additionally, a user who is not fluent in both of the languages involved in a translation will not be able to adequately evaluate the validity of the machine-translated content; the article may appear unproblematic to such a user, but the content translation tool could have subtly altered the meaning of statements to something false.

In short, the consensus is that in the long run, the encyclopedia would be better off if these articles were mass deleted. Respectfully, Mz7 (talk) 23:22, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Addendum: The process for working out how to cause the mass deletion has been established. To mark an article for retention, please strike it out. To unambiguously identify an article for deletion, include the word "kill" in the same line as the article. The articles will be deleted on or after June 6, 2017. Thank you for your patience. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:16, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

---

Hi, Wikipedians. I wanted to give you an update on WP:AN/CXT. Since that discussion was closed about eight months or so ago, we've cleared out about 10% of the articles involved, which were the easiest 10%. The work is now slowing down as more careful examination is needed and as the number of editors drops off, and I'm sad to report that we're still finding BLP issues. The temporary speedy deletion criterion, X2, is of little use because it's phrased as a special case of WP:SNOW and I'm not being allowed to improve it. The "it's notable/AFD is not for cleanup" culture at AFD is making it hard for me to remove these articles as well, so I'm spending hours trying to get rid of material generated by a script in seconds. I'm sorry but I'm discouraged and I give up. Recommend the remainder are nuked to protect the encyclopaedia.—S Marshall T/C 23:15, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

For more context on this issue, please see Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#X2 revision. Cheers, Tazerdadog (talk) 23:33, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Update: This link is now located at .../Archive_61#X2 revision. Mathglot (talk) 01:10, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on this, S Marshall, and I don't fault you for your choice. - Dank (push to talk) 19:49, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

• Isn't there some way to use the sortware to delete all of these in bulk, if only as a one-time thing? Seems like a huge waste of time if it's being done manually by hand. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:07, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

• Easily doable as a batch-deletion. I could have it wrapped up in 15 minutes. Unfortunately community consensus did not lean towards approving that option. In fact, most CXT creations which have been reviewed needed cleanup but turned out to be acceptable articles. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 21:00, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I would support a nuke, a mass draftification, or some loosening of X2. The current situation is not really tenable due to the density of BLP violations. However, ultimately, the broader community needs to discuss what the appropriate action is under the assumption that we are not going to get much more volunteer time to manually check these articles. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:54, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

• No, the broader community doesn't need to discuss that. It's completely needless and the community has had a huge discussion already. All that needs to happen is for WT:CSD to let me make one bold edit to a CSD that was badly-worded from the get-go, and we'll all be back on track. That's it. The only problem we have is that there are so many editors who want to tell me how to do it, and so few editors willing to get off their butts and do it.—S Marshall T/C 19:34, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

• Restored from archive, as it's unhelpful for this to remain unresolved.—S Marshall T/C 17:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support systematic nuke/ revision of X2 to enable this mess to be cleared up. It's not fair that @S Marshall: is being prevented from improving the encyclopedia like this. Amisom (talk) 15:21, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
• Support @S Marshall:'s revision or a nuke from orbit. I wasn't active when this situation was being discussed originally, but having now read over the discourse on the matter, it is clear that our current approach isn't working. No one else is stepping up to help S Marshall do this absurd amount of reviewing, leaving us stuck with thousands of machine-translated BLP violations. It's all well and good to say that AfD isn't cleanup and deletion solves nothing and we should let articles flower patiently into beautiful gardens, but if no one's pulling the weeds and watering the sprouts, the garden isn't a garden, it's a weed-riddled disaster. Give the gardener a weed whacker already. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 09:17, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
• Support the bold edit required to X2; it's true, of course, that AfD is not clean up- but neither should it be a barrier to clean up. In any case, moving a backlog from one place to another is hardly helpful. — O Fortuna! ^{Imperatrix mundi.} 09:39, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
• Question @Elinruby and Yngvadottir: As users who (from a quick glance) seem to have been active looking through these articles, do you think the quality is on average worse than a typical random encyclopedia article, and if so, bad enough that speedy deletion would be preferable to allowing them to be improved over time as with any other article? I don't mean to imply that this is necessarily the case, but I think it should be the bar for concluding whether mass speedy deletion is the correct answer. Sam Walton (talk) 11:22, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
• (I wish I'd seen this earlier; thanks for the ping. I feel I have totally let down S Marshall; I just couldn't stand it any more.) On the whole ... yes. Support deletion of those remaining that have not been marked as ok/fixed. As I tried to explain in the initial discussion, the basic premise here is incorrect: as it states somewhere at Pages needing translation into English, a machine translation is worse than no article. It will almost always be either almost impossible to read, incorrect (for example, mistranslating names as ordinary nouns, or omitting negatives ...) or both. Some of these translations have been ok; many have been woefully incomplete (just the start of the lede), and they all require extremely careful checking. Yes, what lies in wait may include BLP violations. I sympathize with the article creators, and I am usually an inclusionist; I put hours of work into checking and improving some of these, and I'm not the only one. But please, enough. We'd wind up with decent articles faster if these were deleted, and the majority that are bad do a disservice to their topics. Yngvadottir (talk) 12:52, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

• You haven't let me down. You've given me a truckload of support with this.—S Marshall T/C 13:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

• Still oppose mass deletion -- @Sam Walton: What she said: Thank you the ping; this discussion was seeming a bit reiterative and I had mentally checked out. Like @Yngvadottir: I have put considerable effort into some of these articles. In fact, two or three of them are my own translations, which I would not have attempted without the translation tool, btw. Some are from my translations on French law, and I think 1) they cover important and previously missing topics and 2) they are high-quality technical translations. In most cases they speak for themselves. A couple are not perfect, reflecting the state of the French article, yes, and need work. But while these articles -- I am speaking here specifically of my own translations that appear on this list -- may be imperfect they are still reasonable stubs that can be built upon, and they also support more important articles by helping to prevent redlinks in some of the top-level articles on French law and also the French colonial legacy in Rwanda and the Congos etc. See Biens mal acquis for example. That was painful but I am proud of that translation. I have also encountered other people's translations on that list that made me proud of Wikipedia; the one on a cryptology algorithm for example comes to mind, or Essai sur les mœurs et l'esprit des nations. I am an inclusionist, I have to admit, and yes yes, great wrongs and all, but I do think it is important that (for example) articles on Congolese history mention that there have been civil wars (beyond "unrest", and no, I am not kidding). The worst BLP problems I am aware of are in the articles on Dilma Rousseff and I don't believe they are on this list or were created with the tool. Some of the worst PNT pages I have seen predate the translation tool, for instance Notre-Dame de la Garde, which took me years to finish, and Annees folles which is as we speak an incredible mess requiring research in addition to copy-editing and translation. Yngvadottir is correct in saying that inappropriately translated proper nouns is a frequent problem. I recall a Hubert de Garde de Vins who became "wine", and yes, this did reduce the sentence to gibberish. It's annoying enough to make me wanna regex. But. Not mass deletion. I suggest case-by-case intervention in the case of egregious problems with particular users. It's not as though more that a very few users even try to translate. Or perhaps we should revise the criteria for translation user privileges. But even there -- one of the people tagged as delete on sight has created a number of skeleton articles about Quebec. These articles should be be fleshed out not deleted; we should have articles about Quebec. Some of the authors are unquestionably notable, the equivalent in my small culture of Simone de Beauvoir or Colette or Andre Gide. It seems to me that an article that says: this author was born, drank coffee, won the Governor-General's award and wrote these books, is better than having nothing at all. The placeholder takes the topic from unknown unknown to known unknown, or little-known in this context, I guess. We do know a little more about the folk dances of Honduras because there is a very bad article, for which I have done what I could. There are many different problems with the articles on this list. Someone has created multiple articles about, apparently every madrassa in central Tunis. Who am I? Some of the articles I have rescued at PNT were about the medieval wines of Provence, which might seem equally trivial to some. Some of the important but very flawed articles I have noted maybe should not be in the article mainspace -- I am thinking of the ones about the Virgin of Guadeloupe, pretty much everything flagged Mexican historical documents, the Spanish procession of the flowers, etc)--but an interested Spanish speaker could build these out. These topics are unquestionably notable. We should have an article about the Virgin of Guadeloupe, really, people, we should. My suggestion would be recruiting. We desperately need a Portuguese speaker and additional help with Spanish. Some of the unreferenced BLPs sitting around appear to be very fine even though they are unreferenced, and may in fact veer into fluff. But they don't approach liability for libel if that's the concern. I avoid them, personally, because I have in the past deciphered Abidjan l33t about a beloved soccer player, only to be told that we don't as a matter of policy consider these leagues notable. Fine then, they should not be on the PNT to-do list. I'd love to see the translation workflow improved but we should be encouraging the people expanding our horizons is what I think. I am sorry for the very long answer but I appear to be a voice wailing in the desert on this topic and I have now said pretty much the above many times now. Nobody seems to care so oh well, it's not like I don't have other work I can do on the history of the Congo and figuring out what Dilma Rousseff had to say about her impeachment. Reliable sources say she was railroaded (NPR for one) and that is not included in the article at all right now. The articles on Congolese history airily write off genocide and slaughter as "some unrest". In a world where these things are true I really don't care whether on not we find a reference for that Eurovision winner. Someone who cares can do that and I think ethnocentrism is a bigger issue on Wikipedia that these translation attempts. Move the ones that don't meet a minimum standard to some draft space or something. Educate the people who are creating this articles instead of shaking your finger at them. The article creation process is daunting enough and I myself have had to explain to new page patrollers that this punk band is in fact seminal whether you have heard of them or not and whether or not they sing in a language that you can understand. But I have been here enough to do that and I assure you, most people will not. Wikipedia wants to know why its editors grow fewer cough cough wikipedia, lookee here. I will shortly wikilink some of the examples I mention above for easier show-and-tell, for the benefit of anyone who has read this far. Thanks. Elinruby (talk) 20:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support removal of these attempted articles (especially to avoid BLP problems laying around). Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:00, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
• Support [1] I'd say "do a disservice to their topics" is a mild way of putting it. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose blanket deletion. Having just checked a bunch of the remaining articles I found plenty of perfectly reasonable, non-BLP articles here, and any bad articles I did find were certainly not in greater number than you would find by hitting Random Article, nor were they particularly awful; the worst offenses I found were poor but understandable English. There's a lot of valid content here, especially on non-English topics which we need to do a better job of writing about. FWIW I'll happily put some time into going through this list. Sam Walton (talk) 14:12, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Please take a look at the 20 articles I just reviewed here; none had any issues greater than needing a quick copyedit. Sam Walton (talk) 14:38, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
    • @Samwalton9: Thanks. It's been a long, hard slog. I appreciate it if any of these can be saved. However, did you check for accuracy? It's possible for a machine translation to be misleadingly wrong. And the miserable translation tool the WMF provides usually doesn't even attempt filmographies: look at that specific section of Asier Etxeandia. This is not acceptable in a BLP. Somebody who reads the original language (Spanish? Catalan?) needs to go through that article sentence by sentence and film by film. Unfortunately it's not a matter of notability (that's almost always attested to by the original article), it's a matter of whether we have time to save this article. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:27, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
      • That names of works likely don't get automatically translated properly is a good point that I hadn't considered, thanks for pointing that out. If that's one of the primary issues then I'd favour a semi-automated removal of "filmography" or similar sections, if possible. It just seems that there's a lot of perfectly good content in here. Sam Walton (talk) 15:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
        • I looked at the first one you listed, it is a mass of non-BLP compliant (non-neutral, no-inline source) material. Letting stuff like that hang around is not just bad for that BLP but as an example for other BLPs to be created and remain non-compliant. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
          • Sam Walton, you didn't answer Yngvadottir's question. Can you speak the source languages? Remember that because of the defective way that software feature was implemented, you cannot assume that the translator speaks English and in many cases they obviously couldn't. (In practice the source language matters a lot because the software accuracy varies by the language pair. Indo-European languages are often but not always okay, and Spanish-English translations have particularly high accuracy, approaching 80%. Japanese-English, for example, has much, much lower accuracy.) So the correctness of the translation must be, and can only be, checked by someone with dual fluency in the source language and English.

            In the real world you can establish some rules-of-thumb. For example, you can quite safely assume that everything translated by Rosiestep is appropriate and can be retained. The editorial skills of the different translators varied very widely.

            All in all the best solution is for a human who's fluent in the source language and English to look at each of these articles and form an intelligent judgment. The thing that's preventing this solution is that, having looked at the content and formed the judgment, I can't then remove a defective article, because the defective wording in WP:CSD#X2 encourage sysops to decline the deletion unless it's a WP:SNOW case... so I've got to start a full AfD. Every. Single. Time. The effort for me to clean up is out of all proportion to the effort editors put into creating the damn things with a script.

            If you don't want the articles nuked (and that's a reasonable position), then please support the X2 revision I have proposed.—S Marshall T/C 17:37, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

When you say "the first one you listed" are you talking about Tomokazu Matsuyama? Yes, if so. it is indeed an unreferenced BLP but... I suspect five minutes of quality time with Google would take it out of that category, and it's essentially a resume, something like the placeholder articles I mentioned above. I think that perhaps we are better off knowing that this Japanese contemporary artist exists. Why not do a wikiproject to improve these like the one we just had on Africa top-level articles? It does seem to me that you could use a break from this wikitask and a little gamification might well get er done. I share your sentiment that in some ways we have our fingers in the dyke here, but the dyke does serve a purpose I think...In short I respectfully disagree with the current approach to these articles. Elinruby (talk) 21:05, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Break

@Alanscottwalker: I found a reference for his influences in less time than it took to add the ref code....Elinruby (talk) 19:43, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Elinruby: Did you mean to ping me back here, many days after I commented, to tell me you found a pretty crappy commercial source? When I looked at it awhile ago, the article was filled with non-npov/non-referenced/BLP violating text. It is, thus, no comfort that since I commented, awhile ago, someone has according to their edit 'removed the worst of the puffery', and you added that crappy commercial source - its still not policy compliant (even if it is marginally better, since I flagged it) Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:03, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker: I brought you back here to tell you that while it may be have been unsourced, fixing this is extremely trivial. I don't give a hoot about this particular article, but his gallery is not a "crappy commercial source" imho and if you want people to fix then article then you should enunciate your problem with it. Sorry if that doesn't fit your preconceptions Elinruby (talk) 00:51, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Adding a non-independent crappy commercial source is not fixing. It is selling. We are not in the business of selling. What you call "trivial" sourcing does nothing to fix just makes it worse - "trivial" should have tipped you off. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 08:25, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

@AlanscottWalker: Um no.... I was using the term in its software development meaning. I apologize for picking the wrong dialect to make my point. I thought, since you were critiquing the software tool, you might know something about software even though you don't seem to be familiar with the features of this instance of it, or for that matter with a representative sample of its users. Commericial, hmm. The same could be said of my article about the thousand-year-old Papal vintages, you know. That vineyard is selling wine today. Is that article also commercial crap? Since it is a direct translation from French Wikipedia, are you saying that French Wikipedia is commercial crap? You really don't want to make me argue this point, seriously. Incidentally what is with the arbitrary insertion of a break in the discussion? Consider, for just a moment, that I might actually have a point. Entertain the notion for a minute. Why are you belittling my statement? Elinruby (talk) 21:57, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Critiquing software tool? No, I was clearly critiquing an article in English on the English Wikipedia. And I was referring to the crappy commercial source - you pinged me, remember, so that I would know you added it to the article. That was not done in French, it was done in English. As for break, that is your doing, why should I have any idea why you added the crappy source, and then wanted to tell me about it in this break. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker: Let me use small words. CTX is software. Bad translation can happen with or without software. Lack of sources can happen without software. In software development "trivial" means "easy". Do you see now? Be careful who you patronize next time. 01:07, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

@S Marshall:I'd consider supporting your proposal, perhaps, once I have read it, but could you provide a link for we mere mortals who don't normally follow these proposals? I also disagree that all of these articles require a bilingual editor; some just need a few references and/or a copy edit. But you know I disagree at this point. And if you do, god help us, nuke all of these articles as opposed to one of the other courses of action I have (again) suggested above, please move mine to my draft space if you find them that objectionable. Some sort of clue as to what your issue is would also be nice. Elinruby (talk) 19:43, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

• The revision I want to make is this one. The intended effect is so that a human editor, who has reviewed the script-generated content and given it due consideration and exercise of judgment, can recommend the content for deletion and receive assistance rather than bureaucracy from our admin corps.

  The basic problem with these articles is that they are script generated and the scripts are unreliable. Exactly how unreliable they are varies according to the language pair, so for example Spanish-English translations are relatively good, while for example Japanese-English translations are relatively poor; and whether the articles contain specific grammatical constructions that the scripts have trouble with.

  You can test its accuracy, and I recommend you do. The script it used, during the problem period, was Google translate. I've just picked some sample text and run it through Google translate in various language pairs, first into a different language and then the translated text back into English, to see how it did. These were the results:-

Source text	Korean	Punjabi	Farsi
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition	Fourth and seventh years ago, our ancestors left the continent, a new country born in Liberty.	Four score and seven years on this continent, first our father a new nation, brought freedom and dedicated to the proposition	Four score and seven years ago our fathers on this continent, a new nation, the freedom brought, and dedicated to the proposition
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.	And when he saw the multitude, he went up to the mountain, and his disciples came, and opened his mouth, and taught him, saying, Blessed are the souls of the poor: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.	Jesus saw the crowds up on the mountain, and when he sat, his disciples came to him and he opened his mouth, and the poor in spirit was teaching, that theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Yes: interestingly the algorithm interpolated "Jesus" into the text.)	And seeing the multitudes, he went to the mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came to him and he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying: Blessed are the poor in spirit: for the kingdom of heaven.
Editors agree not to publish biographical material concerning living people unless it is accurate	The editors agree not to post electrical materials about living people unless they are the correct person.	To publish the biographical material about the editor, it is right to disagree,	Editors agree to publish biographies of living people, unless it is accurate.

I encourage you to try these and other examples with different language pairs. Can you see why you need to speak the original language in order to copyedit accurately?—S Marshall T/C 22:00, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

But that is not a fair test since it magnifies any word choice errors. There *will* be errors, yes. We clean them up at WP:PNT --- ALL THE TIME. And no, it is not necessary to speak the language always, though it certainly help. I really suggest that maybe you just need a wikibreak from this task. Bad english can mostly be fixed. There are the occasional mysteries, yes. There are colloquialisms, yes. This does not justify wholesale destruction of good content. I was just here to get the link as I mentioned your proposal to one of my PNT colleagues; I need to go but I'll look at your proposal the next time I log in Elinruby (talk) 00:46, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

The liquor was strong but the meat was rotten.

Translation wonks will recognize the (apocryphal) story behind the sentence above, concerning literal mistranslations exacerbated from there-and-back translation. (The story perhaps originated after the NY World's Fair of 1964, which had a computer translation exhibit in the Russian Pavilion.) In any case, I'm just getting up to speed on this topic and will comment in more detail later.

Briefly: yes, you definitely have to speak the language to copyedit accurately. I'm actually in favor of a modification to WP:MACHINETRANSLATION to make it stronger. I fully agree with the worse than nothing statement in the policy now, but I'd go one step further: the only thing worse than a machine translation in an encyclopedia, is a machine translation that has been copyedited by a capable and talented monolingual (even worse: by someone who knows a bit of the language and doesn't know what s/he doesn't know) so that the result is beautiful, grammatical, smooth, stylish, wonderful English prose. As a translator, puh-LEEZ leave the crappy, horrible, machine-gobbledygook so that a translator can spot it easily, and fix it accurately. Copyediting it into proper English makes our job much harder.

If it's too painful to leave it exposed in main space, perhaps moving to Draft space could be an alternative. In fact, rather than a mass-delete, why not a mass-Draft-ify? (Apologies if someone has already said this, I'm still reading the thread.) More later. Mathglot (talk) 01:31, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

mass-Draftify would work for me. And yeah I disagree with you too a little, but I knew that. My point is, we all agree that an issue exists so what do we do? I also have some more reading to do before I comment on what S Marshall (talk · contribs) is proposing. I have a story about the policy but I want to make sure it pertains to this discussion. Elinruby (talk) 22:03, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

• Elinruby is certainly correct to say this "wasn't a fair test", because going through the algorithm twice doubles the error rate. But a lot of people reading this discussion will speak only English so this is the only way I can show them what the problem is ---- without that context, they may well find this, and the original discussion at WP:AN/CXT, rather impenetrable because they won't understand the gravity of the concerns.

  It was even more unfair because it was me who selected the examples and I don't like machine translations. In order to illustrate my point I went with non-European languages and convoluted sentence structures. If you tried the same exercise with a verse from "Green Eggs and Ham" then you'd get perfect translations 99% of the time. (It tripped me up with the Sermon on the Mount because quite clearly, the algorithm recognised that it was dealing with a Bible verse, which I found fascinating.)

  The script is particularly likely to do badly with double-negatives, not-unless constructions, adverbs of time ("since", "during", "for a hundred years"), and the present progressive tense, in some language pairs.

  It would certainly be possible to construct a fairer text using more random samples of language.—S Marshall T/C 10:27, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

@S Marshall: alright, I grant you that there aren't many bilinguals here. This *is* the problem in my view. I'll also specify that I don't claim expertise outside the Romance languages, and very little for some of those. But allow me please, since I know you speak or at least read French, to propose a better example. There are common translation errors that can occur, depending on which tool exactly was used. The improperly-translated name (nom propre) problem was real but is now mostly fixed. The fact that a writer whose novels were written in French gave them titles in French should come as a shock to nobody. The correct format for a bibliography in such cases *is* title in the actual language of the words in the book, webpage or whatever. Translated title, if the title is not in English, goes in the optional trans-title (or is it trans_title?) field of the cite template. Language switch to be set if at all possible. If it is not, let me know, and I can reduce the number of foreign words that English wikipedia needs to look at. So. In all languages, pretty much, words like fire and sky and take tend to be both native to the original people and likely to carry additional meanings, as in take an oath, take a bus, take a break etc. On the other hand what the software tool does do extremely well is know the correct translation for arcane or specialized terms, often loanwords, like caravel or apse or stronghold. These words are in my recognition vocabulary not my working vocabulary and using the tool in certain instances saves many lookups. When there is a strong degree of ambiguity or divergence in meaning (like the example on my user page) then THEN yes a fluent or very advanced user is needed. There are known divergences that a bilingual would spot that an English speaker would not. Sure. "Je l'aime beaucoup, mon mari" is a good example. But the fact that this is true does not prove that every line of every one of these articles still needs to be checked before they can be permitted to continue to sully Wikipedia, or that each of these lines needs to be checked by you personally. If you feel overwhelmed, take a break. Elinruby (talk) 21:57, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

• I speak English, French, German, Gibberish and Filth.  :) Joking aside -- I'm not concerned about noms propres. I'm concerned when the script perverts or even inverts the meaning of the source text. It's quite hard to give you an example because the examples I've discovered have all been deleted, and there's only the one non-English language we share, but perhaps an administrator will confirm for you the sorry history of Daphné Bürki. It was created as a machine translation of fr:Daphné Bürki and the en.wiki version said she was married to Sylvain Quimène, citing this source. Check it out; the source doesn't say that. In fact she was married to Travis Bürki, at least at one time (can't say whether she's still married to him). We had a biographical article where the subject was married to the wrong bloke. It's not okay to keep these around.

  Draftification is exactly the same as deleting them. Nobody is going to fix these up in draft space. The number of editors who're competent to fix them is small, and the amount of other translation work those editors have on their hands is very large, and it includes a lot of mainspace work that's more urgent than fixing raw machine translations in draft space, and it always will; we can get back to fixing draft space articles about individual artworks when every Leibniz-prizewinning scientist and every European politician with a seat on their national parliament has a biography. (We're on target never to achieve that. The democratic process means new politicians get elected and replaced faster than their biographies get translated from foreign-language wikipedias.)

  I don't object to draftifying these articles if that's the face-saving solution that lets us pretend we're being all inclusionist about it, but it would be more honest to nuke them all from orbit.—S Marshall T/C 00:51, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

• I am just coming back to this. I agree about the relatively few translators and the large amount of work, and yet, we so fundamentally disagree. Some of the designated articles do are, in my opinion, within the top percentiles in article quality. Others have in fact been fixed up. You and I consulted about one once. Others, yes, need work, and I at least do get to articles that I say I will get to. Slowly, at times, sure. I have no problem with articles that don't meet a certain standard not going to mainspace, but I don't see why you singly out the translation tool as your criterion. I mention noms propres because I have mentioned one above from Notre-Dame de la Garde where Commander de Vins came across as wine, and this did make the sentence gibberish. But that article did not come out of the CTX tool. Ihave no idea what the Leibniz prize is, but I am not sure it's more notable, in the abstract, than Marcel Proust, but fine. Work on that all you like, sure. But don't tell me it's more important that some mention in Congolese history that there have been civil wars, or I will just laugh at you. The sort of error you mention above with Daphné Büki -- I'll look at it myself shortly, if it's from French I don't need an admin -- can be made by anyone who knows less than they think they do. Automated translation not needed. Now, I propose that since we are talking about this we work out some sort of saner translation process. For instance, if African football leagues are by policy not notable, as someone once told me, fine then, the article should not be in the translation queue. Put something in there about a minimum number of references, require the use of trans-title in the references, whatever is agreed upon is ok with me. Your proposed change would preserve most of by not all of the articles that have been worked on, which is a slight improvement I guess, except you'll also nuke the 3-4 articles that needed nothing and a whole lot of biography that I've avoid because people tend to write me snooty messages to inform me that the person isn't notable, and why waste work when articles like History of Nicaragua are so lacking? Elinruby (talk) 01:01, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Proposal

Okay, I've gone through this and thought about it, and I'm conditionally a Yes on change to X2 and nuking the list, with an option to save certain files.

S Marshall, I take your point about draftification being pointless, as they'll just sit there with most of them never being edited ever.

I believe you've also persuaded me that the nuke is appropriate, given some conditions below. In order to keep Elinruby and Sam Walton (and me, and others) happy about not deleting certain files we are working on or wish to work on, I had an idea: what if we agree to allow a delay of two weeks to allow interested parties to go through and mark files in the list we want to keep so when the nuke-a-bot comes through, it can pass over the files thus marked. (I don't know if we can gin this up for two weeks from yesterday, but that would be auspicious.)

More specifically, to Elinruby's (22:03, 1 April) "So what do we do?" question, I think here's what we do:

• Those of us who want to retain files, mark them with {{bots|deny=X2-nukebot}} to vaccinate them against nuking.
• Change X2 accordingly
• Somebody develops the nuke script
• Nuke script should nuke "without prejudice" so that if someone changes their mind later and wants to recreate a file, it shouldn't be "salted" or require admin action to "undelete"; you just recreate it in the normal way you create any new file.
• If needed, we run a pre-nuke test against sandbox files, or can we just trust the vaccination will be respected?
• Start the script up and let 'er rip

Elinruby, if this proposal were accepted, would you change your no to X2 modif to a yes? Sam Walton, would you?

Naturally for this to have any value, we'd have to agree to not vaccinate the whole list, but just the ones we reasonably expect to work on, or judge worthy of keeping. If desired, I can envisage a way to greatly speed up the first step (vaccination) for all of us. Personally, I won't mark any file translated from a language I don't know well enough to evaluate the translation. But, going through all 3500 files is a burden, since there's no point my even clicking on the ones in languages I don't know. If I knew in advance which ones are from Spanish, French, etc., that would be a huge help. If you look at 1300-1350, you'll see that I've marked them with a language code (and a byte count; but that was for something else). I could commit to marking another 200 or 300 with the lang code, maybe more. If we could break up the work that way and everybody just mark the files for lang code, then once that's done, we could all go through the whole list much more quickly, to see which ones we wanted to evaluate for vaccination.

I really think this could be wrapped up in a couple of weeks, if we get agreement. Mathglot (talk) 18:17, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

• Entirely happy with this idea.—S Marshall T/C 19:33, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
• Agree. Amisom (talk) 11:31, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
• This is fine with me. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:03, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Are there any objections to moving forward with this? Tazerdadog (talk) 01:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Almost two weeks of SILENCE sounds like "go for it". Primefac (talk) 02:28, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm still good with this as proposer, of course, but just to reiterate: we'd still need a two-week moratorium *after acceptance* of the proposal before nuking, to allow interested parties to vaccinate such articles as they chose to. I assumed that was clear, but that "go for it" got me a little scared, so thought I'd better raise it again.

On Tazerdadog's point, what is the procedure for deciding when to go forward with a proposal? Are we there now? Whatever the procedure is, and whenever we deem "acceptance" to happen, can someone close it at that point and box it up like I see on Rfcs, so we can then start the two-week, innoculation period timer ticking without having more opinions straggle in after it's already been decided? Or what's the right way to do this? Mathglot (talk) 07:00, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

• Request formal close, per Mathglot. Do I need to post on ANRFC?—S Marshall T/C 18:40, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

X2-nuke interim period

Wow, cool! Glad we made some progress, and just trying to nail down the next steps to keep things moving smoothly. To recap my understanding:

• we are now in the "inoculation period" with a fortnight-timer which expires 23:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC) an interim period where we figure out how to implement this.
• during this period, anyone may tag articles in the list at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review with the proper tag to prevent nuking two weeks hence

A couple of questions:

• do we have to recruit someone to write a script to do the actual nuking?
• what form should the actual "vaccination" tag have? In the proposal above, I just kind of threw out that expression: {{bots|deny=X2-nukebot}} but I have no idea how we really need to tag the articles, and maybe that's a question for the script writer?
• will the bot also observe strikeout type as an indicator not to nuke? A possible issue is inconsistent usage among editors: for example, some editors have not used strikeout for articles they have reviewed and clearly wish to save (e.g. see #1601-1622)

As for me, I will continue to tag a couple hundred more articles with language-tags as I did previously in the 1301-1600 range, to make it easier for everyone to find articles translated from languages they are comfortable working with, and that they therefore might wish to tag. Mathglot (talk) 02:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC) Updated by Mathglot (talk) 09:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

• Let's make two lists, one of articles to delete and the other of articles to retain for the moment. I don't think that it will be necessary to formally request a bot. We have quite a few sysops who could clean them all out with or without scripted assistance.—S Marshall T/C 15:55, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

  I would implement it as a giant sortable wikitable - Something that looks like this:

Name	Language	Vaccinated	Notes
Jimbo Wales	es	Tazerdadog (talk)	Translation checked
Earth	ar	--	Probably Notable
My mother's garage band	fr	--	X2'd, not notable

Tazerdadog (talk) 17:17, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Isn't the current list easier to deal with than creating a new table, or two new ones? Can we just go based on strikeout type, or add some unambiguous token like, nuke=yes in the content of the items in the enumerated list that need to be deleted? I'm just trying to think what would be the least work to set up, and easiest to mark for those interested in vaccinating articles.

If we decide to go with a table, I might be able to use a fancy regex to create a table from the current bullet list. Although I definitely see why a table is easier to view and interpret once it's set up, I'm not (yet) persuaded that there's an advantage to setting one up in the first place. For one thing, it's harder to edit a table than a bullet list, because of the risk of screwing up cells or rows. Mathglot (talk) 18:59, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The real advantage of the table is the ability to sort by language. This way, if we have a volunteer who speaks (for example) only English and Spanish, they can just sort the table by language, and all of the Spanish articles will be shown together. It's harder to edit, but in my opinion, the ease of viewing and extracting the information far outweighs this.

I have created a list that removes all struck items at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review/Tazerdadog cleanup list. I'm currently working on getting rid of the redlinks as well. Once that is done, we can move to a vaccination model on the articles that have not been cleaned up in the articles thus far. The vaccination can take virtually any form as long as everyone agrees on what it is - I'd recommend that we vaccinate at the central list/table rather than on the article however. Once the two weeks expire, it's trivial to extract the unvaccinated articles and poke a sysop for deletion. Tazerdadog (talk) 00:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

@Tazerdadog: This was posted over at Wikipedia talk:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review as well but wanted to mention it here. Timotheus Canens has created a language-sortable table in their sandbox at User:Timotheus Canens/sandbox that I think is similar to what you were thinking. Mz7 (talk) 04:06, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

And we may have to recreate the table, as I didn't notice it and have been continuing to mark language codes on the main list (and shall continue to do so, unless someone yells "Stop!"). Also, not sure how trivial it is: given a full set of instructions what to do, then, yes, it's trivial, but this is not formatted data (yet) and there are all sorts of questions a sysop might have, such as, what to do with ones marked "moved", or "redirected", and other situations I've come across while going through the list that don't spring to mind. We don't want to burden the sysop with an illy-defined task, so all of those situations should be spelled out before we ask them to take their time to do it, as if there are too many questions, they'll either give up, or they'll do whatever they feel like. Mathglot (talk) 06:20, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

@Timotheus Canens: Tazerdadog (talk) 05:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

And am still doing so on the main page, and so have at least six others since the message just above this one was written. Mathglot (talk) 11:53, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

X2 countdown and vaccinate indicators

Floating a proposal to get the clock started on the two weeks. Any user can write "Vaccinated" (or anything equivalent , as long as the meaning is understood) on the list on the same line as the Strike out any article they want to vaccinate. I can then go through and use regex to remove the vaccinated articles line-by-line from the delete list. I will then separate out the articles with no substantive commentary attached (anything beyond a language or a byte count is substantive) for an admin to delete or draftify. Any article which has been individually substantively discussed will be evaluated independently. If this is OK, we can start the clock. Tazerdadog (talk) 22:23, 6 May 2017 (UTC) Updated Tazerdadog (talk) 06:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

People are already using strikeout type as the "vaccinate" flag so no additional method is needed though I see nothing wrong with using both, if someone has already started with the the other method. Mathglot (talk) 22:51, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Also, I have been placing substantive commentary on plenty of articles, with the intention of facilitating the work of the group as a whole, in order to aid people in deciding whether that article is worth their time to look at and evaluate. In my case at least, substantive commentary does not indicate a desire to save, and if you intend to use it that way in the general case, then you need to suggest another indication I can use as a "poison pill" indicator to ensure it is nuked despite the substantive commentary. Mathglot (talk) 23:31, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Strikeout works even better than my idea, as it is easier to write the regex for. I was figuring that substantive commentary at least deserved to be read before we nuked them, although unless a comment was actively positive on the article I would have sorted it as a delete. If you want every article you commented on to be deleted, I can use your signature as the poison pill. Otherwise, use what you want, just make sure it is clear what it is. Ideally, place it at the start of a line, so I don't have to think when writing the regex. Tazerdadog (talk) 06:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

@Tazerdadog: If you need a tester, feel free to shoot me a pattern; I'm a bit of a regex wonk myself, plus I have a nice test app for it. Can't use my sig as poison pill, cuz often my commentary is unsigned cuz I did them 20 or 50 at a time, with the edit summary carefully explaining what was done, but no sig on the individual line items. Beyond that, quite a few have commentary by multiple people, so even if I did comment (and even sign) others may have, too. The only clear way to do this, afaics, is to have an unequivocal keep (or nuke) indicator (or more than one is okay, if you want to OR them) but anything judg-y like "substantive commentary" seems risky to me. In the latter case, we should just get everyone to review all their edits they forgot to strike, and strike them now, or forever hold their peace. In my own case, no matter how positive my comment, or how long, if there's no strike on the article title, it's a "nuke". It occurs to me we should poll everyone and get positive buy-in from all concerned that they understand the indicator system, to make sure everyone knows "strike" equals "keep" and anything else is nuke (or whatever we decide). It won't do to have 2,000 articles nuked, and then the day after, "Oh, but I thought..." Know what I mean?Mathglot (talk) 06:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

@Mathglot: I think the solution is to draftify until everyone agrees that no mistakes have been made, then delete. I'm happy to do the grunt work of the manual checking of longer entries, and I don't think it is particularly risky to do so. However, the vast majority are short, and can and should be handed with a little regex script. We do need to make sure that the expectation of strikeout = delete instead of strikeout = resolved was clear to all parties. As for a deleteword, literally anything will do if it is unique and impossible to misinterpret. I would recommend "kill" as this deleteword, as it is clear what the meaning is, possible to write the regex for, and currently has only a couple of false hits in the page that can be worked around easily. Does this work for you?

The reasoning for checking longer entries is to try to catch entries like this:

|Battle_of_Urica -seems fine, at least not a translation issueElinruby (talk) 19:14, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Tazerdadog (talk) 08:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

@Tazerdadog: If by "draftify" you mean quarantine, i.e., staging/moving all the to-be-deleted files someplace prior to the hard delete, I totally agree. (Whether that should actually be the current Draft namespace is debatable, but might be the right solution.) As far as regexes, I count 738 <s> tags, 732 </s> tags, 587 keepers, and 2785 nukers as of May 7 ver. 779254187. Mathglot (talk) 22:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Ok, sounds good. By draftify, i meant "Move out of mainspace to a different namespace where the content is accessible for translators, but unlikely to be stumbled upon accidentally by someone who thins they are reading an actual encyclopedia article." it also should be noted that when any of these pages are deleted, it should be a WP:SOFTDELETE, i.e. if someone asks for a small number to be restored after they have been deleted so that they can work on them they can just ask any admin to do so. I think that's all that needs to be resolved for now, so I'm going to go ahead and start the two week countdown until someone yells at me to stop. Pinging some participants: @S Marshall:@Elinruby:@Yngvadottir: Tazerdadog (talk) 23:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

For clarity, the process is: At the deadline, June 6, 2017 all struck articles listed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review will be retained, and all unstruck articles will be deleted. Articles with significant commentary attached will have the commentary read before the deletion, but the default is the struck/unstruck status unless the commentary indicates clearly the opposite result is better. The work "kill" may be added to unambiguously mark an article for deletion. On or after June 6th, the regex nerds will compile a list of articles to delete and retain. The delete list will be moved to draft space (or subpages of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review), where it will be audited briefly just to make sure nobody made a systematic error, then deleted. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Per #deadline it's June 6. Your clarifications on "draftify" and the process all sound good, otherwise.
P.S. Note that one article matches /kill/i but none matches /\bkill\b/i. Mathglot (talk) 23:28, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Fixed, I was unaware of that discussion, thank you. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:34, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

@Mathglot and Tazerdog: so for purposes of making life easier I will strike what I think should be struck. At one point people were checking my work so I was rather tentative initially. I am following the regex discussion but haven't used it in a while so save me the trouble of looking this up -- did you conclude that "kill" would be useful, or not? Elinruby (talk) 00:58, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

@Elinruby: If the title is strikeout type, it will be kept; if it isn't, it won't. Placing "Kill" on an article has no effect at nuke time, but it does have a beneficial effect now:, i.e., it saves time for others. It lets others know that you have looked at this one and found it wanting, so they should save their breath and not even bother looking at it. For example: You marked #18 Stevia_cultivation_in_Paraguay "really, really bad". That was enough for me not to bother looking at it, so you saved me time, there. If you want to place "kill" on the non-deserving items you pass by, that will help everybody else. I may do the same. But in the end, on Nuke day, the "kill" markings won't have any effect. Make sense? Mathglot (talk) 01:20, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

@Mathglot: yeah it does, thanks. And indeed I seem to be the most inclusionist in the discussion so if I think it's more work than it's worth I doubt that anyone else in the discussion would disagree. Elinruby (talk) 01:31, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Re-pinging@Tazerdadog: on Elinruby's behalf for confirmation. Due to the ping typo above, he may not have seen this, and it's really his call, not mine. Mathglot (talk) 01:35, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Mathglot's interpretation above is basically correct. Please do not duplicate work you've already done just to add the kill flag, but please strike entities that could be ambiguous (I will manually evaluate your intention based on comments that you left, but the default is the struck/unstruck status unless you are clear in your comments otherwise). Please do use these flags from now on, or on any where your intention is unclear. Tazerdadog (talk) 02:15, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Tazerdadog I'm looking at formation of the strikeout tags enclosing the linked titles, and found 43 anomalies that might trip up the nuke pattern. I'll probably starting fixing these tomorrow. Mathglot (talk) 09:44, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

assumption for User space items

@Tazerdadog: I notice that various contributors are strikeout-tagging Userspace items: see #14, 15, 691, and 695 for example. I have not been tagging any of them, my assumption being that all User space items will be kept automatically regardless of presence/absence of strikeout title (and ignoring any "kill"), and since it's trivial to skip over them with the regex it's not necessary to tag them. If you agree, please make a note at WT:CXT/PTR, or let me know and I will, so everyone can save their breath marking these. Mathglot (talk) 01:25, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

That was my assumption as well, all entries outside of mainspace should be fine. Tazerdadog (talk) 01:39, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

rescuing clobbers by CXT

@Tazerdadog: I just rescued #2611 Garbacz. This was a good stub created in 2008, then clobbered in 2016 by ContentTranslation tool, leaving a rubbish translation deserving of deletion. I just rescued it by reverting it back to the last good version before the clobber, and struck it as a keeper.

I'm concerned that there may be an unknown number of formerly good articles of long standing in the list that we don't want to delete, simply because they got clobbered by CXT at some point and thus ended up in the list, and time ran out before anybody got a chance to look at them. If I can get a list of potential clobbers in the next week, I will check them all out. (Am betting it's less than a couple hundred, total; but maybe S Marshall would help out, if it turns out to be more than that.) Shouldn't be too hard to create such a list:

pseudocode to generate a list of possible CXT clobbers

# Print out names of Titles in CXT/PTR that may be clobbers of good, older articles. # (Doesn't handle the case where oldest version is CXT, followed by user edits to make it good, # followed by 2nd cxt later which clobbers the good version; but that's probably rare.) # For each item in WP:CXT/PTR list do: $line = text from next <ol> item in list If the bracketed article title near the beginning of $line is within s-tags, next loop Extract $title from the $line If $title is not in article space, next loop Read Rev History of $title into array @RevHist Get $oldest_es = edit summary string of oldest version (last index in @RevHist) If 'ContentTranslation' is a substring of $oldest_es, next loop Pop @RevHist: drop oldest summary from @RevHist so it now contains all versions except the oldest one If 'ContentTranslation' is a substring of @RevHist viewed as a single string, do: Print "$title possibly clobbered by CXT" End For

Are you able to create a list like this, or do you know someone who could? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 21:56, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

• Why not just ask the deleting administrators to check the translation is the first revision before they push the button?—S Marshall T/C 23:32, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

That would be a shitton of work for the deleting admin. Tazerdadog (talk) 00:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

3.6 metric shit tonnes, to be exact. ;-) And thanks for the ping, Taz. Mathglot (talk) 01:56, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

@Tazerdadog: I think I've maybe got your query: I see from Samtar's query that you use MySQL. If that's the case, then to do this, I think you can take Samtar's query 11275 exactly as it is, with one more WHERE clause, to exclude the oldest revision:

AND WHERE rev.date > @MIN_REV_DATE

where @MIN_REV_DATE is either separately selected and assigned to a variable [as there would be one min value per title, it would have to either be an array variable or more likely a 2-col temp table with title and MIN date, which could be joined to rev.] Edited by Mathglot (talk) 18:50, 19 May 2017 (UTC), or probably more efficiently, a subquery getting the oldest rev date for that page using standard "minimum value of a column" techniques. So the result will be a subset of Samtar's original query, limited to cases where ct_tag was equal to 'ContentTranslation' somewhere other than in the oldest revision for that page. (By the way, I don't have access to your file structure, so I have no idea if 'rev.date' really exists, but what I mean by that, is the TIMESTAMP of that particular revision, whatever the field is really called. Also, again depending on the file structure, you might need to use techqniques for groupwise minimum of a column to get the min rev date for each page.) Mathglot (talk) 03:09, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Unfortunately, I've never used MySQL before. I was hoping I could muddle through with some luck and googling, but I had no such luck. Tazerdadog (talk) 03:53, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

@Tazerdadog: And I could totally do it if I had the file structure but I don't; but my strong hunch is that this is very easy, and needs one additional "WHERE" plus another query (probably the groupwise MIN thing) to grab the min value to exclude in the new WHERE. OTOH, if you have access to Quarry, shoot me your query by email if you want, and I'll fix it up, and you can take that and try again, and with several back-and-forths I bet we can get it. Or if you've got zip, I can try a few establishing queries for you to try, and then we can try to build the real one depending on the results you get from those. (Or, we can just wait for someone else to do it, if they will; it really should only take minutes.) Mathglot (talk) 05:11, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

@Tazerdadog and S Marshall: I don't think this is getting enough attention, and your previous request appears to have stalled at V Pump. This is not good. We need to get this list. Is there someone you can lean on, or request help from, to kick-start this? Alternatively, if someone will give me access to Quarry, a MySQL account permitting SELECT and CREATE TEMPORARY TABLE (or even better, MEMORY table) and a pointer to the file structure descriptions, I can do this myself and create a list to protect these articles. Mathglot (talk) 06:32, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

*Bump* Mathglot (talk) 18:19, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Cryptic for db report 19060. We now have the list of clobbers, and can attend to it. Please see WP:CXT/PTR/Clobbers. Mathglot (talk) 05:18, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Re-requesting closure of Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest#Investigating COI policy

Someone already requested a closure of Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest#Investigating COI policy, which concerns outing/paid editor/harassment/COI... whatever. However, Casliber says that more than one closer, preferably three-person, may be needed. I wonder whether more than one closer is necessary. If so, this indicates that the discussion would be another one of more difficult discussions we've seen lately. Thoughts? --George Ho (talk) 13:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

It's not obvious from the discussion and the number of editors participating and the number of proposals made that it's a difficult and controversial topic? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:59, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

To me, closing the whole discussion is very difficult because of the controversy of the topic. However, I concentrated more on milieus and proposals. To be honest, I saw two milieus and one concrete proposal receiving support from the majority. I concentrated on the straw polls and arguments. How about this: close separate milieus and proposals separately? They aren't that difficult to separately close due to other milieus and proposals not likely to pass. --George Ho (talk) 20:17, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Closing each one separately probably makes more sense from a numbers perspective. However, it should still be one group of editors that does it, since there is the possibility (mentioned on the discussion) that some of the milieus could contradict each other depending on what gets passed. Primefac (talk) 01:57, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Milieus 1, 2, and 5 are easy to close as the majority opposes them individually. Milieu 3 and concrete proposal 1 received majority support, so those would be also easy to close. But you're right; one same group of editors should do the individual closures. However, I won't be part of the closing group, so I'll await the uninvolved closers then. --George Ho (talk) 04:44, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

I would be willing to be involved in a group closure on this. Tazerdadog (talk) 19:02, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

I cast a !vote in the discussion which I had forgotten about - it would therefore be grossly inappropriate for me to participate in this closure Tazerdadog (talk) 01:04, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I guess this means we're putting the band back together ;) Primefac (talk) 19:04, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

We still need one more volunteer for this. Tazerdadog (talk) 10:01, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll step up, if you like.—S Marshall T/C 17:34, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

And... we're back down to 2. Primefac (talk) 02:30, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Needed: Another closer please!—S Marshall T/C 15:35, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

I suggest you just go ahead with however many closers you have now. I further suggest that the "milieux" were intended to get a "general view of the community" and were very vaguely worded, so that if all you can say is "there was no apparent consensus", then so be it. As far as concrete proposal 1, which I proposed, the 28-6 result seems to make the close obvious. You might as well just go ahead and close it. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:53, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

• @Primefac: thoughts? Nobody else is stepping up.—S Marshall T/C 19:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Meh, let's just go for it. I think I've still got your email kicking about. I'll send you my thoughts hopefully in the next 24 hours. Primefac (talk) 20:46, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll write mine independently over the same period, and we can see if we agree.  :)—S Marshall T/C 21:39, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

• Sorry, I've re-opened the RFC. Re-opening interest for other editors willing to work on a close. Primefac (talk) 22:31, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Take your time. ;) Meanwhile, what happened to closing separate, individual milieux and proposals? George Ho (talk) 10:35, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll go back to what I said 4 comment above. The milieux can be very difficult to close because of the wording. I thought the reverted close was a very good attempt to make sense out of M.3 in that it focused on what the consensus there actually agreed on, but that aroused a storm and nobody seems to be able to agree on what was actually agreed on. Concrete proposal 1, which I proposed, is very much the opposite and I think can be easily closed. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:27, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll help close it, but I think the section below the actual RFC should be considered as well, since they're actively discussing the RFC and how to proceed. Maybe we should wait just a little while longer to see how that develops. Katie^talk 23:23, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. No point in cutting off productive discourse. Primefac (talk) 11:48, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

@Primefac, KrakatoaKatie, and S Marshall: I'm going to close a couple separate milieus that receive huge opposition. Casliber, the proposer, is fine with it. However, may I summarize the tally votes as just short rationales? I'll leave the others open. --George Ho (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Fine by me, George Ho. It'll make the overall close a bit cleaner. Primefac (talk) 23:08, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Closed milieu 1 and milieu 5. I closed milieu 2 as "no consensus", but I commented that another closer can summarize that better than me. --George Ho (talk) 00:51, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I changed my mind and briefly summarized milieu 2. --George Ho (talk) 01:18, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Milieu 3, Concrete proposal 1, and Concrete proposal 2 are closed by Winged Blades of Godric. Give Godric thanks for the closures. George Ho (talk) 19:08, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I've been thinking. After closing all the milieus and concrete proposals, I wonder whether closing the remainder of the whole discussion as a whole is possible. If not, how about separately closing "RfC discussion" (including Break 1), Break 2, and Break 3? George Ho (talk) 02:53, 25 April 2017 (UTC); rescinding this consideration. 18:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Milieu 4 and Concrete proposal 3 still remain. --George Ho (talk) 04:00, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Needing more than one to close RfC discussion at WT:V

The discussion "Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Recent changes to policy about verifiability as a reason for inclusion" started in April. Then the discussion got larger and larger, making the discussion very complex. I discussed it with the proposer S Marshall, who says that several closers are needed. I welcome at least two volunteers. --George Ho (talk) 14:33, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

@George Ho:--I am willing to serve as a closer.Winged Blades ^Godric 09:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Godric, and I welcome that. I also need another or more closers for teamwork closure. --George Ho (talk) 15:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Also, I created the subsection Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#How to best close this discussion? for team closers to discuss preparing the closure. --George Ho (talk) 02:51, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Reverting closure without discussion

Moved from WP:ANI § Reverting closure without discussion

I had closed an RFC at Talk:Catalan Countries (edit | article | history | links | watch | logs) based on a request at WP:AN/RFC (Request). The user Asilah1981 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) reverted my closure (diff) with a note calling it personal opinion. I reverted his edit (diff) and took the matter to the talk page asking him to present his reason for overturning my closure (diff). I asked him to show me any points I missed. Before I could reply to his assertions (here), he again removed the RFC closing statement (diff) and left a note asking any other editor to close the discussion.
My reply to his assertions (here) were actually written before he reverted my edits. I asked other editors to comment on my closure. I was working as per WP:closure review where I would have reviewed my own closure and changed the statement had anything meaningful been brought before me or if most of the participants were unhappy with my closure.
Please correct me if my closure was wrong or take action against him if I was in the correct place. Also, I only wanted to resolve the issue with proper discussion but this reverting of closures isn't really helpful. Thanks, Yashovardhan (talk) 14:55, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

I believe WP:AN is better place for this. Capitals00 (talk) 15:01, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks @Capitals00:. Yashovardhan (talk) 15:06, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

[2] I don't know if this is the place but I've already grown tired of these jibes and personal attacks every time our orbits come into contact. I avoid the guy because he is always creating conflict but I feel he is trying to intimidate me into not commenting with these constant comments. WCM_email 09:20, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that. That's kind of like WP:Battleground behaviour that he's showing. I've notified him of this discussion but he seems to ignore it. Yashovardhan (talk) 09:55, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Asilah has displayed battleground behaviour throughout this RfC. He edit-warred continually to add his disputed content back into the first sentence while the RfC was ongoing, even when it was crystal clear that consensus in the RfC was against that content (the choice in the end was between two neutral alternatives to Asilah's version). Then he changed tack and edit-warred to add a "failed verification" tag to the second sentence on the spurious grounds that three citations in the second sentence failed to verify the first sentence. He even admitted that this was what he was doing. Note also the tendentious edit summaries like this and this. Asilah made it clear that he didn't like how the RfC was going, and that if he didn't get the result he wanted, "of course he would take it further". He followed this up by posting "Invalid RfC", though he did strike this when he thought he was going to get the result he wanted. Reverting the close without a policy-based reason is just his latest attempt to disrupt the process.

Asilah has a history. He was indef blocked after this discussion at ANI at the end of last year (you can find the sequel to that – the offer of mentorship and the failure of same – between here and the end of the page, and in this section and this); and although his behaviour has been not quite as egregious since then, he continues to show a battleground mentality on multiple pages. In my opinion he needs to be sent a message. Scolaire (talk) 13:00, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

We're running short of messages we can send that don't involve blocks and bans. He's been ticked off by admins before and just ignored it or insisted that he was in the right. We offered him mentorship and he agreed terms - but then reneged on them as soon as they involved actually changing his behaviour in any way.

I have not interacted with Asilah recently because he's mostly stayed away from my areas of interest. The problem back then was that Asilah appeared to believe that anyone who did not unconditionally support his position on any matter was acting in bad faith. He'd claim to AGF but then in the same message insist that you were trying to torment him by asking for evidence to back his position. When I read things like this, along with the other behaviour described here, it is clear to me that this may have moderated but not fundamentally changed. Kahastok talk 17:11, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

I really don't know about his long term behaviour but I did check that he had been blocked earlier. I just think he needs some good mentoring and a lesson about how to discuss at talk pages. For instance, I had notified him of this discussion but he didn't respond here (yet). Instead, he chose to continue discussion about (attacking?) other editors at the article talk page. He is showing childish behaviour which needs to stop (unless he's actually a child). In any case, I again left a note at that article talk page where he was discussing. Yashovardhan (talk) 18:02, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Is this really worth an ANI, Yashovardhan? I reverted once or twice then moved to talk page. I disagree with your closure but I have long working hours and I'm not willing to waste more time on this. Asilah1981 (talk) 05:18, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Something I have noticed, which is tantamount to gaming the system, every time this escalates to a point where it reaches here or ANI, then they back right off. It appears like the need for admin action has disappeared and so nothing happens. Then its back to the same battlefield behavior again. WCM_email 07:47, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

So devious of me....Asilah1981 (talk) 09:16, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

After reading the concerns raised by others here, I'll say it needs to be discussed. It's high time you stop this behaviour. I suggest he requires good mentoring. This was the reason I first raised it at ANI but it was redirected here. An admin action is required now. Yashovardhan (talk) 04:15, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

There is no point. He had a good mentor, who asked him to agree some conditions. He did so. He then ignored them. He didn't try and fail to make the standard. He made no attempt whatsoever to follow the conditions. The mentoring ended because the mentor decided that it could not succeed without Asilah's cooperation.

Unless there is a reason to assume that the same won't happen again, mentoring is a non-starter. Kahastok talk 21:17, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

[3] His latest comment on a talk page, this is words of encouragement to an editor trying to make sense of an awful article. I agree with the comments about mentoring, it would appear that mentoring was agreed to when a permanent block was being considered for disruptive editing. As soon as the focus was removed, they quickly reverted to the same behaviour elsewhere. WCM_email 23:26, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Is a ban or block being suggested here? I think a temp block will have no gain as he has a history of being block. If he is particularly disruptive in one field, a Topic ban may be a better alternative to an indef block. If so, we have to identify the particular field in which he is disruptive. Yashovardhan (talk) 13:58, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

I would endorse a topic ban from topics related to the Iberian peninsula, broadly construed, until he demonstrates some vague understanding of WP:AGF. Calling people psychopaths is not on. Kahastok talk 17:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

As a note, this post by Asilah1981 on WCM's talk page would have to rank among the worst types of personal abuse. Calling other editors a 'dick' and a 'psychopath' is totally unacceptable. Nick-D (talk) 06:54, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Nick-D. I was going to warn him for this but I think it won't do much good. Instead, its better to discuss this ban proposal here. I now think an indef block woulld have been a better proposal. Maybe WP:DNR is a good policy for him as well but now its too late for that. Yashovardhan (talk) 07:08, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Topic Ban proposal for Asilah1981

As suggested by Kahastok just above, I propose an indef topic ban for Asilah1981 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for pages related to the Iberian Peninsula (interpreted broadly) (or until he stops his disruptive behaviour). To recap: The user has a history of disruptive editing and previous blocks have led to no good. The user has failed to assume good faith even when he has been told to do so on multiple occassions. Previous mentoring for the user has bought no good either. I propose that the ban may be lifted only when the community agrees that the user has stopped his disruptive behaviour. Pinging @Wee Curry Monster, Scolaire, and Kahastok: who have participated in this discussion here. Yashovardhan (talk) 17:58, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• I support the ban as proposer. Yashovardhan (talk) 17:58, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
• Support. I thought for a while before making this suggestion above because it's a tough action and I want to be fair to Asilah. But this has been going on, to my knowledge, for close to a year. How long should we have to tolerate an editor disrupting every attempt to improve a set of articles with such a resolute and unbending insistence that anyone who doesn't agree with him is acting in bad faith? I wouldn't bring this up but it is entirely typical of Asilah's behaviour for close on twelve months.

He's been indeffed once already. Mentoring has been tried and failed almost immediately. Something has to give, and I think this ban is proportionate. Kahastok talk 18:57, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry on what basis?

1) I have NOT made any edits to this article od my own. WCM began promptly edit warring with another editor (Anes pur sang) who was just trying to improve the articles, with what seemed like considerable effort and research in a completely non-political way.

2) I noticed the disruptive pattern and supported him.

3) I have requested (with strong words, he has done this too many times) WCM not to harass me on my talk page.

4) I have not broken the 3RR.

Two nationalistic editors disliking me is not grounds for a topic ban. Danke schon.Asilah1981 (talk) 06:25, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I think an indef block will be better if this kind of behaviour (as pointed above by Nick and Kahastok) continues. A topic ban is a slightly lighter proposal if this personal attack is considered. Yashovardhan (talk) 07:08, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Yashovardhan Indefinite block? Q? Mazaak band karo yaar... Asilah1981 (talk) 16:51, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Translation in English : Why? Stop this joke... --Yashovardhan (talk) 17:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

@Asilah1981: Bro, we are not joking here. Not meaning to insult you but you should have been more careful about these interactions. You already know that Personal attacks are strictly not tolerated here. Here's my suggestion, just read it once if you will, its for your own good :-

• Accept this topic ban
• Move away from all editors you have had major issues with and try moving into a field where they are not regular. (I know its hard but its not impossible, you can create a self imposed interaction ban if you want).
• Show that you understand what this ban is being proposed for
• Stop personal attacks altogether
• Make a good fresh record for yourself and come back in a few months to get this ban lifted.

I hope you understand that I have never interacted with you earlier so my opinion is as unbiased as it could get. I have the deepest respect for you and know that you can prove that you dont need an indef. Oh, and please do provide diffs for personal attacks that you alleged others have done against you, it will make your case stronger.

I wish you all the best of luck for your future endavours! Now if you could excuse me, its my birthday in a few minutes. Regards, Yashovardhan (talk) 17:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Well happy birthday Yashovardhan but do not claim you have "never interacted with me and are unbiased" when only recently we have had a dispute over a questionable RfC closure as can be seen above, I believe. Its best to remain honest on these matters. Chalo, soja raha hoon. Mazaa karo.Asilah1981 (talk) 19:15, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

@Asilah1981: Thank you. What I meant was that I've not interacted with you before this issue. If you look again, i used the word 'earlier'. Sorry if I sent any wrong impression. Yashovardhan (talk) 19:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• CommentYashovardhan Excuse me?? Do you know how many times WCM has called me a Dick in discussions? He even has edit summaries calling me a dick and I'm pretty sure he has called me a dick a number of times on my talk page. Do you want me to post the diffs here? I'm getting tired of this cry baby attitude, the same two guys coming to this board over and over again after baiting and insulting me, hoping for a topic ban or block of some kind. All I ask from them is to be left alone, to not post on my talk page and to not track my edits in other articles. (They can call me a dick, Im fine with that). And please stop wasting the community's time with more Gibraltar-related moaning. I do not even edit those articles.Asilah1981 (talk) 10:05, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

If you have been personally attacked, I dont see any reason for not sharing those diffs here. Yashovardhan (talk) 13:51, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Yashovardhan I don't need to trawl through diffs looking for the number of times WCM has told me to stop being a WP:DICK, he knows it is true and he won't deny it, unless he feels wasting my time is worth him looking bad. I am not that thin skinned to consider it a personal attack though. If you think I'm problematic, have a look at my edits on the clusterfuck in Syria-related articles which is an outright warzone (no pun intended) and ask yourself if I'm really a conflictive editor. This entire thread is about editors having personal issues with me, not an edit conflict. It is over one fricking word I used in anger "psycopath" which wasn't even about an edit conflict but about posting on my wall. And yes I have been trying to stay away from WCM. Asilah1981 (talk) 19:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• For the record: I was briefly permanently blocked for accidentally revealing one of your names, under your past aliases while bringing up in a discussion that both of you have been topic banned on Gibraltar-related articles (not knowing your past aliases were your real names). So using this confusion against me is unwarranted. Also this happened over a year ago.Asilah1981 (talk) 10:05, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
• Support It seems that no matter where this editor edits, he appears to engender conflict and often for either really silly reasons or for POV reasons. Just for information mentoring was previously considered at ANI as an alternative to an indeff block for this editor. I was happy for Irondome to try and mentor this user, especially if it stopped the personal abuse directed at me. However, it seems clear that they never had any intention of sticking to a mentoring agreement, it seems that it was used as an escape route to escape sanctions and once the focus on his editing behaviour was lost he returned to form. I see a topic ban as a last step before an indef block. WCM_email 13:37, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
• Support: I have not interacted with this user. I noticed that he insulted WCM here, so I reverted him. Then I checked a bit more on the background dispute: he reverted the article Disputed status of Gibraltar three times in less than 24 hours, and then stopped. Right in the razor's edge of a 3RR breach, but as he did not revert a 4º time, he could not be reported. But, as I saw here, he has been using this method for a long time. Cambalachero (talk) 14:08, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
  • 'Interesting logic "Since he didn't break the rules we can't accuse him of breaking the rules, but since he nearly did, lets topic ban him anyways." By the way, the term DICK I used it paraphrasing WCM since he has been telling me "not to be a WP:DICK" repeatedly for months now, which is offensive yet not enough for me to consider wasting anyone's time over. Asilah1981 (talk) 14:27, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
    • See WP:GAME Cambalachero (talk) 15:26, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
    • Given that you so strenuously objected to being warned of WP:3RR, it is surprising that you seem unaware of the part of the warning:

Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

These warnings are designed to help you. I suggest you read them and heed them. Kahastok talk 17:00, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Kahastok and these rules don't apply to you? Because if we look through these articles you and WCM seem to be the most active reverters I have seen on Wikipedia.Asilah1981 (talk) 19:32, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• Support. The user has a lengthy history of combative, POV, disruptive, gaming editing in the area. I'm sure Iñaki LL would agree. He's been blocked 8 times in 2.5 years [4], and is probably headed for an indef if he continues on his destructive course. Softlavender (talk) 15:39, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
• Softlavender Ask the editors who blocked me, but 4 of the times I was blocked were due to a single kafkian situation whereby the admins were forbidden by policy to tell me what I was doing wrong and why they were blocking me. It was a strange event. Eventually, they left me enough hints for me to work it out by myself.Asilah1981 (talk) 20:02, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
• Softlavender Pinging every single editor I have ever had a conflict with as is being done here is not really a correct way to go about these discussions. Yes, most of the active Wikipedia community knows Inaki hates me to death and has falsely accused me of sockpuppetry 4 or 5 times, so I steer clear of him. We already know his opinion. I understand it is fun to gang up on individual editors. This entire ANI discussion is the result of me responding negatively to unrelenting harassment on my talk page as user Valenciano succinctly summarizes here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Wee_Curry_Monster&diff=783372115&oldid=783304313 and here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Wee_Curry_Monster&diff=783384450&oldid=783382841. It should not serve as an excuse for "payback" for past feuds. Sure maybe I should have not called WCM a psychopath - But when someone claims to be "required to harass you by policy" (wtf?) and does it again within 3 hours of you asking him to stop is certainly not reasonable. WP:DICK does apply I believe, the first time I have used this expression and I responded in kind to the same accusation launched by this very same user. For the record, I don't like this concept of WP:DICK and have suffered it too many times. I use it once and somehow it becomes a shit storm. Talk about "gaming the system"....Asilah1981 (talk) 16:34, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Please provide a diff for your quote "required to harass you by policy". When doing so, bear in mind that editors are required to post certain notices by policy, that this is not considered harassment (a very serious accusation that itself requires evidence), and that you are not allowed to avoid admin scrutiny by banning people from posting those required warnings. Kahastok talk 17:00, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Kahastok The diffs are on my talk page. Harrassment involves repeatedly posting warnings on an experienced editors talk page when involved in an edit conflict when they have asked you repeatedly to stop doing so. And this is not the first time or the second.Asilah1981 (talk) 19:35, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I can't find that quote on your talk page. It should be trivial to post the link to the diff you are quoting?

Note that I find nothing in WP:HARASS that would endorse your contention that it is harassment to post warnings on user talk pages in circumstances in which they are required or strongly recommended by policy or common practice. Kahastok talk 09:54, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

• Support. Thanks for calling me to this unsurprising new incident. I have been largely inactive lately in the EN WP: like many editors of Spanish topics who prefer to dedicate to more productive things than permanent litigation with ubiquitous editors, I am less and less active. I quitted the article Basque conflict for Asilah1981's conspicuous battleground approach defying all patience, the editor in question seems to thrive in litigation and all red hot topics of present-day and long-running Spanish politics, e.g. historical memory, historiography, terrorism/politics related violence, national (Spanish, Basque, Catalan) and territorial (Gibraltar) issues, Spanish race or no race,… POV pushing that puts all patience to test. For what I read above, the editor in question continues set in his ways with an ad hominem, judgemental, divisive approach, parroting the same old generic partial truths… Four months ago, he conspicuously breached a constructive, well-meant sanction (cited above, cf. Irondome), and nothing happened whatsoever, total impunity. Gaming the system is one phrase that suits well his behaviour, for what I can see he has not learnt anything, only more sophisticated ways to circumvent the system. Iñaki LL (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

So I think that's it. That's all of you who have either falsely accused me of things I haven't done (Inaki's favourite method is accusing half a dozen of unrelated editors of sockpuppetry) or who have a long standing grudge against me. Shall I now ping the dozens of editors with which I have edited constructively and thanked me for my work over the last 5 years and turn this into a battle of meatpuppets or shall we just forget about this ridiculous incident?Asilah1981 (talk) 04:46, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

O actually, I read Asilah1981's latest personal attack as pointed by Yashovardhan above. It just confirms there is no learning whatsoever. I was subject to serious personal attacks addressed to me in Spanish some time ago in his own talk page and MLNV prisoners page, and veiled threats in an ANI one-two years ago, although he has refined his ways of addressing to me in the course of time. Due to his inability to refrain, I should rather support a complete ban, with topic ban as second option. As I have said other times, there is the edit record for everyone to check. Regards Iñaki LL (talk) 09:25, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

• Support. I outlined Asilah's tendentious editing at Catalan Countries in my post in the previous section. I have seen similar behaviour at articles with which I have not been involved, e.g. this at Disputed status of Gibraltar, this at Basque conflict, and this at ETA. He was also involved in this discussion at ANI over edit-warring to replace a copyrighted image in several Iberian-related articles without a proper fair use rationale. Asilah has a problem with objectivity, and a problem with unemotional, rational discussion. He does game the system by withdrawing at strategic moments so that right now, for instance, he could not be blocked because he's not doing anything blockable (his last revert at Disputed status of Gibraltar was two days ago). A topic ban seems the only answer. Scolaire (talk) 12:21, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Scolaire why on earth would anyone block me Scolaire? Because you don't like me? Nothing in policy allows a group of editors to come together on the basis of their opposition to one editor's views on a range of different topics to "topic ban" him. On what topics? "Asilah is banned from editing on anything that WCM, Scolaire, Inaki and Kahastok feel VERY strongly about". The basis of this decision was that Asilah was rude when asking WCM for the nth time to stop posting on his talk page. Really? That is the expected outcome? You think that is how wikipedia works? And you accuse me of gaming the system? This IS gaming the system. Asilah1981 (talk) 13:11, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Read your response again, Asilah. It sums up exactly what the problem is. There was a number of ways you might have responded, but the only way you know is to go on the attack with shouty bolded sentences. Scolaire (talk) 13:49, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

• Support No basis in policy, Asilah1981? On the contrary, the actual policy states: The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid an editor from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive.emphasis added. In the areas cited above, there is evidence of tendentious editing, failure to engage in consensus, and attempts to drive other editors away from an area of editing. This is behavior that falls within the definition of disruptive editing. Rather than address these complaints, you have chosen instead to attack the other editors as your personal enemies. I am posting this here in the (possibly vain) hope that input from an editor who has not previously interacted with you may have some positive effect. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 14:43, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Eggishorn Ok fine. I'm done with this issue. Just make sure this guy doesn't harass me on my talk page again and I'm happy. Its ironic that two editors who had to open new accounts to circumvent long-term bans on these very articles, are trying to get me topic-banned. I barely edit them anyways, technically I didn't edit them at all. I just briefly supported the latest of the dozens who has been hounded out by these editors over the past decade. Have a nice week. Asilah1981 (talk) 15:17, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I think WP:SPI is pretty good in dealing with these situations. Did you consider filing a case there with the evidence you might have to make such accusations? Yashovardhan (talk) 17:36, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Yashovardhan Its not an accusation, its a known fact by all admins. The reason I was blocked was for outing their former accounts, not knowing that they were their true names. I cannot discuss this topic as per Wikipedia policy, would get me blocked - this time permanently.Asilah1981 (talk) 11:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Asilah1981 I think you should know WP:CLEANSTART then. Yashovardhan (talk) 14:04, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I do know WP:CLEANSTART, Yashovardhan simply see little change in behavior between then and now... anyways, I have other issues to worry about these days.Asilah1981 (talk) 15:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• Support Asilah has long been a disruptive influence in these articles and his responses here are classic examples of a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. Rather than acknowledging there may be a problem, he launches into attacks on other editors, suggesting that they are just bad faith editors, sockpuppets, " Two nationalistic editors" who dislike him etc. One of the latest controversies involves him edit warring against consensus, during an RFC which disagreed with his view and adding pointy tags then responding with refusal to get the point when editors took the time to explain why the tags were inappropriate. Now we have WP:GAME examples, making 3 reverts then stopping short of a fourth. Since this part of a long pattern rather than an isolated incident, an enforced break from these articles would be best. Valenciano (talk) 18:08, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic-ban from all topics related to the Iberian peninsula, broadly construed. The disruption has been repeated over a very long period of time and consistently involves personalizing disputes with editors that Asilah1981 disagrees with. Asilah1981 states above that he 'barely' edits articles in this topic area anyway. If true, then the topic ban will have little to no impact on his editing. But based on the editing history I think this claim is more a case of another example of the tendentious approach to editing that this editor has. MPS1992 (talk) 18:55, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
• I would support a wider topic ban related to any political subjects Here is their latest edit. He tells that members of "fact checking organizations" "celebrate public executions with militants". What? This is not supported by any reliable sources, to tell this politely. My very best wishes (talk) 15:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• I don't know if I support this--I do know that the "dick" comment came after a. Asilah asked WCM to stay away from their talk page and b. WCM didn't honor that request--so it seems pretty clear who was in the wrong here. Drmies (talk) 15:42, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I only saw their edits in the area of Syrian war, such as this ("fat unemployed blogger" in edit summary; being "fat and unemployed" is not a reason for removing anything), or that doubtful usage of Amnesty statement [5]. In the last diff he (mis)represents views by Amnesty International and EU as something opposite to the views by US and UK governments. In fact, they are not opposite. But whatever. I have no strong opinion about it.My very best wishes (talk) 21:31, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Re-requesting closure on RfC discussion about WP:NSPORTS

I previously requested closure of Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#The criteria of WP:NSPORT here are too inclusive at WP:ANRFC because someone said one closer is enough. However, another person said that more than one closer, i.e. two closers, may be needed. Therefore, I'm re-requesting a closure here but for two-person teamwork. --George Ho (talk) 18:23, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Ban proposal/rangeblock request: Masoom.bilal73

• Masoom.bilal73 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Phalia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This user is effectively de facto banned already, in that no sane administrator would ever unblock them, but I'd like to propose a formal ban anyway. . Main target for this user is Phalia which they have repeatedly edited to insert their own name, and/or make generally incompetent edits of other types. They have even gone so far as to upload an image of a landmark in Phalia at Commons (now deleted) where they added their own name as a watermark not one but four times over what turned out to be a copyright violation anyway.

I don't believe this is trolling, it is more of a WP:CIR issue. This person seems manifestly incapable of understanding that Wikipedia is not a place to promote themselves, and there is an obvious language issue as well. Their unblock requests make it clear they have an extremely poor understanding of the English language, to the point where it si unlikely they even comprehend the majority of messages they receive.

Part of the reason is simply to get more eyes on them, I seem to be the only admin fully aware of them and if I'm not around the socks tend to go unnoticed even though they are extremely obvious. The other reason is the probably vain hope that maybe, just maybe, a formal ban will drive home to them that they need to stop what they are doing. If one of my fellow checkusers would be willing to look into a rangeblock that might also be helpful. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:19, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

• If it'll help, I'll support this. I also added Phalia to my watchlist, but my watchlist is getting a bit too large for me to notice everything that happens on it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:56, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, that' something, I was rather hoping to get more than one comment here.... Beeblebrox (talk) 18:03, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Beeblebrox, isn't your semiprotection of Phalia likely to address the problem? If you have a rangeblock in mind, can you say what it is? Extending the semi to indefinite is one idea. It is easily justified since the problem has been happening since 2015. Another option is WP:ECP since socking is a justification for such a protection under the community rules. For what it's worth I would support a ban on User:Masoom.bilal73. There is a sockpuppet category at Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Masoom.bilal73 and an SPI at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Masoom.bilal73. EdJohnston (talk) 02:59, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

I haven't run a CU (the socks being rather obvious on behavioral evidence) so I can't say for sure if a rangeblock would be effective, Most of the socks never get to the point of being autoconfirmed, so semi seems like a better fit than ECP. Some of the socks have edited other articles so it is still possible protection won't put a complete stop to it. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:39, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Copyright violations - help requested

While the Copypatrol tool has meant that new copyright violations are (relatively) quickly caught and patterns of violation (relatively) quickly corrected, we have years of a backlog of old copyright problems to deal with. In the past, our tools were not so good, and users could go for years without detection and blocking. So we have a massive backlog (years' worth) of articles that may be contaminated with copy-pasted content. I'd appreciate all the help possible cleaning these up. Given the current situation, other users' work is often wasted where foundational copyright violations require the deletion of content that has been polished for years. Users interested in helping can manually check old diffs and can also run the current revision of articles through Earwig's tool, though I recommend doing the latter only after making sure that all of the reference URLs work and swapping them out for archive versions if necessary. Thanks! List of open long-term copyright investigations below. Assistance also appreciated at Copypatrol and WP:CP but these are more or less under control. Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:59, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

List of open long-term copyright investigations

Case Date Notes Hauganm 31 July 2011 Sweden, Norway, biographies Arfaz 3 August 2011 Indian films 20111004 04 October 2011 aviation Ironboy11 09 October 2011 Pakistan SasiSasi 18 October 2011 copyright Borsoka 23 October 2011 Eastern Europe 20111108 8 November 2011 text Tiamut 11 March 2012 Middle East 20120412 12 April 2012 energy Marcus334 19 April 2012 India, environment Anglo Pyramidologist 6 June 2012 miscellaneous Judgesurreal777 23 June 2012 pop culture YHoshua 10 August 2012 Indiana Striver 4 September 2012 Islam Hyperionsteel 10 October 2012 Canada Proudbolsahye 21 December 2012 Armenia IWannaABillionaire 29 January 2013 popular culture Tobyc75 13 February 2013 Switzerland Snigdhasinghsweet 20 February 2013 India No barometer of intelligence 01 March 2013 American politics, national security Rosser1954 04 March 2013 Scotland Hantsheroes 17 March 2013 Canada Tamravidhir 25 March 2013 India 20130330 30 March 2013 philosophy BhagyaMani 19 April 2013 wildlife Gunkarta 10 June 2013 Indonesia Arrwiki 17 June 2013 Indian films 20130819 20 August 2013 Military Degen Earthfast 5 September 2013 Military 20130908 8 September 2013 geology, paleontology, biology Zictor23 19 September 2013 Politics FreshCorp619 14 October 2013 Schools America789 31 October 2013 Military Buster40004 31 October 2013 Military DrMicro 13 November 2013 medicine Aetheling1125 9 December 2013 British history Premkudva 20 December 2013 India Purrum 15 January 2014 Australian Football 20140127 27 January 2014 Biographies Nehapant19 18 February 2014 India Dante8 27 March 2014 feminism $1LENCE D00600D 17 April 2014 American military history Norden1990 25 April 2014 Hungary DendroNaja 17 May 2014 snakes, crime GordyB 1 June 2014 Rugby Trident13 22 July 2014 Britain Superzohar 10 August 2014 Russia Kprtqrf06 16 August 2014 Canadian military history Zozo2kx 23 August 2014 Syria Lactasamir 27 August 2014 Europe Skoojal 6 September 2014 philosophy, LGBT Gryffindor 16 October 2014 various El Cazangero 17 October 2014 various 20141020 20 October 2014 Native American history Mztourist 29 October 2014 military DocOfSoc 22 November 2014 California Wysinger 1 December 2014 Jazz Ajdebre 5 December 2014 Serbia ProfReader 1 January 2015 South Carolina Hahc21 18 January 2015 music BiggestSataniaFangirl89 21 March 2015 History Rick570 2 April 2015 New Zealand, Christian brothers Headhitter 15 April 2015 Biographies, music, churches Grunners 17 August 2015 Europe, railways Oanabay04 25 August 2015 US railways and popular media 20150927 27 September 2015 Nigeria 20151115 15 November 2015 American history Coldcreation 15 November 2015 Art Koala15 15 November 2015 Film 20151212 12 December 2015 Ireland, TV shows Aldebaran69 22 May 2017 unattributed translations about royalty Nannadeem 23 May 2017 Pakistan, Islam Faedra 23 May 2017 Nobility Josephlalrinhlua786 23 May 2017 Film Ahendra 23 May 2017 Islamic and other history Helena Bx 24 May 2017 South Asian history CJojoC 22 September 2017 Korean movies 20171031 31 October 2017 India Jwratner1 1 December 2017 Earth 20180325 25 March 2018 Women and other minorities in history Tanbircdq 22 August 2018 Asia Sayerslle 11 September 2018 Politics and arthouse films Nauriya 11 September 2018 Film and TV 20150507 11 September 2018 Animals and Cricket Edelmand 11 September 2018 Britain and Led Zeppelin Rochelimit 11 September 2018 Indonesian architecture Hogie75 11 September 2018 Canadian geography Mahussain06 11 September 2018 Boxing Dunks58 11 September 2018 Australia, Milesago.com 20190125 25 January 2019 American military MatteoNL97 24 July 2019 Cigarettes and motorcycles Contaldo80 24 July 2019 Homosexuality and religion Dead.rabbit 24 July 2019 Bangladesh BLPs Flooded with them hundreds 24 July 2019 Music 20190724 24 July 2019 Unattributed NASA copies Favre1fan93 24 July 2019 Superhero media 20190724a 24 July 2019 Terrorism in India Kailash29792 26 December 2019 Indian cinema Dutchy85 26 December 2019 Old films and TV 20200212 12 February 2020 Aviation and transport 20200411 11 April 2020 India: Assam Georgiano 22 May 2020 Caucasus history Dhollm 19 July 2020 Science Snickers2686 21 July 2020 American politics ZarhanFastfire 29 July 2020 Canadian art Isinbill 22 August 2020 Ethnic groups and Mexico Veillg1 2 September 2020 Machine translations, Quebec Lmmnhn 7 September 2020 Hong Kong Kiraroshi1976 16 September 2020 American culture and movies 20201008 8 October 2020 Britain 20201108 8 November 2020 Royalty and foreign arthouse films 20201122 22 November 2020 The Middle East and technology Comhar 27 November 2020 Ireland Greenock125 30 November 2020 Songs Sengkang 7 December 2020 Singapore geography 211.237.125.110 7 December 2020 Japan ZaDoraemonzu 7 December 2020 International relations Ssolbergj 24 December 2020 The EU and Europe JoeScarce 9 January 2021 Catholicism and news 20210111 11 January 2021 Britain Shootingstar88 26 January 2021 Sexuality 20210126a 26 January 2021 Books and art pop 20210126b 26 January 2021 Film 20210127 27 January 2021 Nigeria 20210127c 27 January 2021 Alcohol Backendgaming 28 January 2021 Asia, music, and news 20210128 28 January 2021 Indian cinema 20210206 6 February 2021 Guyana Manannan51 15 February 2021 Catholic TheriusRooney 4 March 2021 Motoring Ruigeroeland 6 March 2021 Species Troy86 12 March 2021 Brazil 20210314 14 March 2021 Austrialia, world history 20210315 15 March 2021 Misc. american history Kahsiav 16 March 2021 India Vvven 22 March 2021 Ibero-America 20210410 10 April 2021 Tamil movies Amshpatten 16 April 2021 Indian history and culture 20210418 18 April 2021 Military history Lg16spears 24 April 2021 Movies and TV shows BornonJune8 25 April 2021 American sports and TV Verosaurus 30 April 2021 Ships Rockysantos 11 May 2021 Portugal 20210531 31 May 2021 World history LupEnd007 4 June 2021 Rap music 20210813 13 August 2021 India- Kollam Bluecountrymutt 26 August 2021 US Air Force Elan Morin Tedronai 2 October 2021 Science fiction, fantasy and music Enthusiast01 13 October 2021 Australia, world events 20211022 22 October 2021 European biographies DaWulf2013 31 October 2021 US military regiments Werldwayd 6 November 2021 Music 20211117 17 November 2021 Hinduism 20211215 15 December 2021 Indian history MWD115 26 January 2022 Unattributed translations BOZ 1 February 2022 Table top games and video games Shadowwarrior8 14 February 2022 Islam Qualitatis 20 February 2022 Israel, Palestine JShanley98 20 February 2022 Movies Harshhussey 20 February 2022 Cricket Ashim nep 20 February 2022 Nepal 20220220b 20 February 2022 Hinduism Ewf9h-bg 4 March 2022 Ancient society Friedjof 4 March 2022 German biographies DeltaSquad833 4 March 2022 Ships Rtkat3 25 April 2022 Comics TDKR Chicago 101 15 June 2022 Biographies and Chicago 20220623 23 June 2022 Cuba 20220731 31 July 2022 Bangladesh and Indian films Nicholas0 1 September 2022 Film Suslindisambiguator 24 September 2022 Science biographies 20221001 1 October 2022 Translations J Bar 23 October 2022 Australian media 20221029 29 October 2022 The Bible Takhellei 30 October 2022 Manipur films Chinakpradhan 5 January 2023 Spaceflight 20230110 10 January 2023 Sikhs Profile101 11 February 2023 Transport SuperSwift 12 February 2023 Nigerian history and government 20230303 3 March 2023 Sustainability SGT141 8 May 2023 US police 20230508 8 May 2023 Afghan military history Sittaconde 8 June 2023 Sierra Leone Chamaemelum 21 July 2023 Science and genetics Zackmann08 21 July 2023 Fires and firefighting Peripatetic 12 August 2023 Biographies 20230813 13 August 2023 Australian music 20230831 31 August 2023 Diving and South Africa 20230909 9 September 2023 Australia 1Sire 22 October 2023 Music Gilabrand 3 November 2023 Israel 20231125 25 November 2023 Botany Piledhigheranddeeper 19 December 2023 USA history Hadden 13 January 2024 USA history FuzzyMagma 13 January 2024 Middle East Cs california 13 January 2024 Plants OcelotHod 13 January 2024 Films 20240203 3 February 2024 Mathematics Gre regiment 2 March 2024 Greece, Turkey 20240428 28 April 2024 Veterinary medicine Opus88888 3 May 2024 Latin American music 20240707 7 July 2024 Israeli archeology 20240708 8 July 2024 Iran Rjdeadly 11 July 2024 Roman history Woolstation 14 July 2024 Miscellaneous Adelee296 14 July 2024 Azerbaijan Broadmoor 18 July 2024 US college sports Zeorymer 21 July 2024 Portuguese heritage

• Comment:--Can't there be a script that automatically runs through the diffs. and after vetting them through Earwig's tool, marks the percentage of copy-vio?It would make the job less tedious by a mile and fasten up the process.Winged Blades ^Godric 10:25, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's so simple but I've inquired at WP:BOTREQ. I feel like I've asked a similar question previously, but I couldn't find it in the archives there so I may be misremembering. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:17, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

• there is a boatload of copyvio in pages here [[6]] and much of it can be axed for other obvious reasons like Promo, NOTAWEBHOST etc without even checking for copyvio. However if someone figures out a way to semiautomate checking copyvio, let's use it against userspace too. Legacypac (talk) 18:41, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Rich Farmbrough

Rich Farmbrough has been unblocked. This appears to be resolved. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:03, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I just blocked Rich Farmbrough for a week for making an ungodly number of script-run edits. When you check out his contribs you'll see a rate of about 250 pages in three minutes. There was a bot request waiting, and the template being "fixed" is already on the autosubst list, so I'm not sure why he felt the need to do this himself in such an immediate fashion. Either way, it contravenes the WP:BOT policies and (even though the sanctions have been lifted) breaks almost every sanction put in place by the ArbCom case. This is mostly a procedural notice regarding the block, but I think further community-imposed restrictions could be merited. Primefac (talk) 18:59, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

This is actually a topic ban violation of the ban instituted here. That ban applied to all edits that don't change the rendered output of the page unless there's consensus for them. Given that WP:Bot policy is a policy that disallows automated editing from the main account, these automated edits didn't have consensus. Given the history here, a one week block was generous, in my opinion. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 19:36, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

The rate seems excessive to me. Leaving the TBAN, bot approval, and consensus issues aside, there should never really be a good reason for excessive rate of automated or semi-automated normal edits (i.e. no urgency for the project as a whole, no benefit from going fast). The API includes a rate limiting / throttling feature, to account for server load, and database update and replication lag. Roughly one edit per second strongly suggests to me that this feature was not used, which goes against best practices. See mw:Manual:Maxlag parameter and Wikipedia:Creating a bot § Bot best practices. Murph9000 (talk) 20:16, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I noticed no errors to Rich's edits. I think blocks for editing too fast should stop in the future. There is no server overload. Moreover, I assume good faith and I do not think the edit were fully automated. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:53, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm failing to see how this block isn't purely punitive. It is actually preventing constructive edits from being made, creating more harm than good. -- John Reaves 20:07, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Edits at this high of a rate on a non-bot account (i.e. without a bot flag) are a significant and borderline disruptive nuisance at best, since it floods recent changes and makes spotting non-constructive edits more difficult. At worst, it's a clear violation of the bot policy for running an unapproved bot task. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 20:09, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Is it different than running AWB (or whatever people use now) or are those edits filtered somehow? -- John Reaves 20:15, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

AWB edits aren't hidden either, but people shouldn't be using AWB at a speed that floods recent changes either (I think I saw something somewhere, albeit quite a while ago, about it being good practice to limit yourself to about 6-10 edits per minute with AWB). Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 20:20, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

(ec)I see it differently. I'll start by acknowledging that Rich has contributed to this project enormously. That said, there have been issues in the past, resulting in the chewing up of enormous amounts of time by other editors looking into issues. Those problems in the past have been serious enough to result in Arbcom imposed restrictions. While I'm not conversant with every detail of past cases or even this incident, it sounds like some tasks that are perfect for a bot are being handled semi-automatically due to impatience waiting for the bot approval. I don't believe any of the edits been made our time critical could easily have waited for the bot approval. Even if every single edit made turns out to be perfect, Rich's past track record requires a diversion of scarce resources (Primefac) into a review of the edits, not to mention the time taken by anyone contributing to this discussion. I am sure there are better uses of the time of all involved.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:21, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: I do hear you on the delays with bot approvals. I've been mulling over the idea of throwing my name in for BAG, but I have a feeling that would go over like a lead balloon. We really need more technical editors evaluating potential bot tasks. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 20:40, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

JFYI, there is a script that allows to hide AWB edits from watchlists. -- Magioladitis (talk) 20:22, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

...which is a very stupid thing to do as long as you and similar careless editors are running AWB jobs all the time. I recently notified you that your AWB edits were moving the hidden comments from AFD messages and the actual AFD template away from each other repeatedly, and you were not aware that this happened and needed explanation of how these AfD headers are formed (User_talk:Magioladitis/Archive_6#AFD_message_and_AWB). You are encouraging RF at his talkpage, but considering your recent ArbCom case and subsequent problems, I don't think you are best placed to educate anyone on how to do rapid editing from their main account, or to give advice on how to ignore AWB edits and the like. Never mind arrogantly thanking RF "on behalf of the community". Fram (talk) 20:46, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I am encouraging people to stay on Wikipedia and edit more and more. Wikipedia is a place everyone can edit. -- Magioladitis (talk) 20:57, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

But not however they want, in whatever fashion they want to, since we have policies and rules. BTW, considering that you're an admin, could you please learn how to indent properly? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:29, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

• Does the first of his sanctions logged at WP:RESTRICT apply here? Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:49, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
  • See my comment on this above. I think yes. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 20:52, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
    • Since its obvious he is using some form of semi or fully automated tool to make edits from his main account, I would say his restrictions against cosmetic only edits apply. MEATBOT certainly does. Mags opinion can be safely disregarded given his own restrictions in the area of automated editing. Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:13, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Fram I think the community is super happy that Rich is around and contributing. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:02, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Since Rich Farmbrough is blocked, I'm copying his contribution to the discussion from his talk page. Huon (talk) 21:03, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Primefac has opposed the use of a bot to make more intelligent replacements of the template than auto substing (note, Primefac crafted the subst version of the template) firstly by opposing the BRFA with dismissive language, and secondly by reverting my edit to prevent auto-substing while waiting for the BRFA "Auto susbting is pretty rubbish for this template." with the summary "has to be done". Primefac is clearly WP:INVOLVED

I have proceeded with process manually, albeit at a high rate, as WP:MEATBOT says "merely editing fast is not a problem", rather than engage in conflict with Primefac.

Today Primefac has blocked me with the block summary of "WP:MEATBOT" - which (after I proposed a mutually beneficial way forward) they replaced with the revisionist "this was fully automated editing" and escalated to AN with proposals for un-specified further sanctions.

This seems firstly a case of WP:INVOLVED, and secondly a lack of understanding of WP:MEATBOT. Upping the ante to an AN thread and "fully automated editing" rather than working on a consensual way forward seems unhelpful.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:20, 26 May 2017 (UTC).

I agree that MEATBOT does not apply in this case. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:05, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I do agree that Primefac deserves a mini-trout for making a block related to a BRFA he commented on, but I believe the exception on INVOLVED applies. Operating an unauthorized bot on a main account is such a bright-line action that any administrator seeing this (and familiar with the bot policy - most aren't) would take the same action if the edits didn't stop after messaging the operator. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 22:49, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

As I see it, it's time to unblock. MEATBOT applies only if the non-bot editing is making "errors an attentive human would not make"; I didn't see any mistakes in the edits I checked (how do you make mistakes when you're just substing a template, anyway?), and unless I've repeatedly missed it in this thread, nobody's alleging that he made any such mistakes. Yes, this looks like an unauthorised bot, so the block was appropriate for that reason despite Primefac's involved status, but unless you're convinced that he'll start back up again once the block ends (I'm not so convinced), retaining the block is punitive but not preventive. Nyttend (talk) 00:07, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

PS, BU Rob13, I think you're looking for a {{Minnow}}. Nyttend (talk) 00:09, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

WP:BOTASSIST is the relevant portion of the bot policy, not MEATBOT, just FYI. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 00:14, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I can accept a minnow (or mini-trout) for my actions, and I've extended an olive branch to Rich. Hopefully this sort of thing can be avoided with better communication (on all sides) in the future. Primefac (talk) 01:38, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I am going to unblock user:Rich Farmbrough per above. I do encourage Rich to wait for the BRFA tfinish (which I think can be speedy approved, the code does not seem to make mistakes). I agree that the auto-subst is inefficient, but there was no hurry either. Please remember your past with ArbCom, you're on a short leash. At worst, your edits were pointy as bot approval is (too) slow. I endorse the trout for User:Primefac, this does border on an involved block, there was absolutely no emergency to stop Rich), especially seen their edits to the BRFA ánd to the template. Maybe I missed it, but I see no response from their side regarding the efficiency of auto-subst. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 04:23, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

(Screwed up both pings: @Rich Farmbrough and Primefac: --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 04:26, 27 May 2017 (UTC)).

That's fine. Thanks. Primefac (talk) 12:28, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Now that Rich is unblocked, I wonder if there is something to to do with Primefac's false block. Note that if RU Rob13 they would have blocked for bigger period which is absurd! We have to find a solution for this emerging problem. -- Magioladitis (talk) 06:52, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Nah. Totally valid block. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 07:02, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Ks0stm He was unblocked. Do you disagree with the unblock? -- Magioladitis (talk) 08:14, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I should have added to my original post, I think that a message to Rich's talkpage might very well have been enough to get Rich to stop automated edits on their main account (and if he would not have, then a block would have been necessary). I said that User:Primefac's block bordered on INVOLVED, but I am sure it was way too heavy handed, and that I expect an attempt at civil conversation first next time ... --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:27, 27 May 2017 (UTC) (sigh, editing from iPad sucks. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:28, 27 May 2017 (UTC))

@Beetstra: This was done, actually. The edits continued at very high rates afterward, so a preventative block was issued. It is likely that whatever software Rich was using to make the edits did not show him the message initially, which is why we often need to quickly block unauthorized bots. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 14:33, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: I don't see a request to stop, nor did user:Primefac allude to that in their opening statement. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 14:39, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but if I saw when I see things like You really shouldn't be doing bot-like edits on your main account on my talk page, I'd probably stop what I was I stop what I'm doing and start a discussion. Whether I agreed or disagreed with the note, I wouldn't keep going as if nothing happened. As Rob alluded to, he might not have ever seen the note and could have carried on indefinitely if something wasn't done. Primefac (talk) 14:43, 27 May 2017 (UTC) This has happened, with my own bot. Primefac (talk) 14:44, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Unless you are referring to this, which I think is at best a suggestion to reconsider. But indeed, that should have gotten a response anyway, user:Rich Farmbrough, I stand corrected, I did not recognise this as such, nor did I see the timing of it. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 14:48, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

(I have seen this as well when I was high-speed AWB editing) --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 14:49, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

More odd, It seems that Rich was not editing at the time of warning, but started again 11 minutes later. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 14:53, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, which either means he saw the message and ignored it or didn't see the message (meaning he was using something highly-automated with no emergency stop feature). ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 15:04, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

That's why I agreed with the block, even though I requested its removal because I believed it was no longer needed. Nyttend (talk) 20:55, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:G4 and "substantially identical"

I'm looking for some clarification on what "substantially identical" means in WP:G4, and for review on whether an admin declined a speedy incorrectly. I initially meant to post this at WP:DRV, but WP:DRVPURPOSE doesn't seem to include review of declined speedies. I could be wrong about that.

User:Nyttend declined speedy G4 on International recognition of Khojaly Genocide, with the following edit summary when declining: "Rv cluelessness: did you even look at the deleted content? Don't tag for G4 unless you have solid evidence".

The original article, Khojaly Massacre recognition, was userfied to User:Interfase/Khojaly Massacre recognition following 2nd AFD. It's a list of state and supranational recognition of the Khojaly Massacre. The new article, International recognition of Khojaly Genocide, is almost entirely the same article: in the supranational section Human Rights Watch and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (which called it a massacre) have been replaced with the Heydar Aliyev Foundation in Brussels and Turkey; there's a slightly longer lists of countries (unreferenced) and of U.S. states (barely referenced), with 6 inline references overall compared to 52 in the original. Three WP:RS of the six in the new article from U.S. state legislatures are also used in the original; the other WP:RS is new.

The only significant change to the new article is that the word "massacre" has been replaced by "genocide" in the title and throughout the re-created article, despite the references overwhelmingly using the word "massacre" in the original, and in all of the four WP:RS in the new except the one from the Azerbaijani government website. This wording has been the subject of frequent edit-warring in Khojaly Massacre, but consensus there and in all but one of the articles in Category:Khojaly Massacre was to use "massacre". The sole exception in article titles in the category is the exact name of a memorial.

The new article is clearly a POV page fork of the old, using the disputed wording throughout, chopping all but three the sources that use the word "massacre", and adding two opinion blog sources and one government source that use the word "genocide".

The duplication was immediately obvious to me, though I can see how it might not have been to other editors. I should also mention that I would have voted "keep or merge" in the AFD: my aim in speedying it was to follow WP policy on article recreation following AFD.

This post has so far been nearly a copy of what I posted at Nyttend's talk page. Nyttend replied to me at User talk:Uncle_Roy#International recognition of Khojaly Genocide, but appears at this point to have broken off the dialogue. I think that Nyttend has misread the G4 criteria, in spirit if not in letter, and would like to hear from some other admins. If Nyttend is correct and I'm wrong, then editors can do an end-run around an AFD by reposting the article, slightly re-written, with no substantial new additions. Uncle Roy (talk) 05:49, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

The real question (I didn't check this one closely) is: Does the new article deal wit hthe issues brought up in the original AFD? If it does, then we can't claim the old consensus has any relevance, and it can't be speedies. If it doesn't, then the article can be speedied. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:44, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

The policy on recreating deleted content does not say the new content must be deleted. It says it can be deleted. You didn't even have to nominate it for speedy deletion. Since you did nominate it, then an admin evaluates it. There is no definition of sufficiently identical and in this case Nyttend does not believe it is. If you believe it should be deleted, take it to AFD. ~ GB fan 11:01, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Is the question about whether this is "subtantially identical" to this? If so we have a good example of a matter that has often been discussed but not resolved. Do we have a linguistic difference between people in different parts of the world, or between people with cultural differences? I absolutely can't see any way at all in which these article versions could be validly described as "substantially identical". Other people obviously will not be able to understand what I think the phrase means. Thincat (talk) 11:13, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Precisely: someone wrote a new page on the same subject. A repost is when you save content offline (or you find it somewhere online other than the page itself) before it's deleted, and then you put it back after the deletion. Or in this case, you move the AFD'd page back to mainspace or copy/paste the content to mainspace. If you don't like the WP:CSD policy, don't try to get me in trouble: start another AFD, as GB fan says, or try to get WP:CSD changed so that G4 covers identical subjects, not identical content. Nyttend (talk) 11:45, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

It's nothing to do with me liking or disliking policy. The policy as documented at WP:G4 is unclear, and the clarifications made here should be noted there. And as I wrote both here and at your talk page, "I would have voted "keep or merge" in the AFD: my aim in speedying it was to follow WP policy on article recreation following AFD." Uncle Roy (talk) 16:18, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

At running the risk of putting words into someone else's mouth, I think that Uncle Roy doesn't have an issue with your actions, Nyttend, but instead an issue with the wording of the G4 criteria itself. I think your actions in declining the speedy deletion are reasonable and respectable, and I'd be surprised if someone actually had a serious issue with what you did. I don't think this noticeboard post here is to discipline you or any other editor. Instead, it seems Uncle Roy just wants to follow the policy as written, and he had a question about how it was written. Please correct me if I'm wrong with my thinking here. JaykeBird (talk) 00:34, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

That's almost correct, JaykeBird. Other editors here explained why it was ineligible for G4, and I'm fine with that. But I do have a problem with the way the decline was handled. Per WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF, all Nyttend had to do was decline the speedy, with a summary along the lines of "ineligible per G4". In this rare case, I did have access to the userfied article, and by the criteria as written, judged it to be "substantially identical". That's a difference of interpretation of a vaguely-written policy, and there's no reason to flame me and other editors for that. Uncle Roy (talk) 09:02, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

G4 is often tricky because the people tagging it usually don't have access to the previous version to assess whether or not the versions are substantially identical; when I'm working through CAT:CSD, I always find articles tagged G4 take more effort than many other criteria for this reason. I've also got a lot of sympathy for admins declining CSD in general; articles where CSD is declined can always be sent to AfD, while speedy-deleted articles are relatively difficult for ordinary editors to recover. TL;DR: If you think the reasons behind the previous consensus to delete still apply, nominate it at AfD. GoldenRing (talk) 13:01, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Incidentally: Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)#Archiving pages before deletion. ʍw 14:27, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I trust we all understand that the term "substantially identical" and "sufficiently identical" are use rather than the cleaner "identical" to avoid the potential gameplaying where an editor could make an innocuous change to a version in claim it isn't exactly identical. We also accept the efficiency of allowing a single admin to requiring a consensus of editors in the case an article has been deleted before and a new article is created that is substantially identical to the deleted one. The obvious question is how to draw the line to decide how much of a change can occur between two versions and still accept that the admin can take the shortcut and not go through AFD.

I do accept that there is a fair amount of overlap between these two versions. Yet the title is different, the re-lead has been rewritten and is a significant difference in the sourcing of the two articles. I think it is perfectly appropriate from at an admin to look at the two, observe some sections that appear to be identical but others that appear to be quite different and decide that the best thing to do is submit it to the community for a decision.

I would not even find it ironic that an AFD might reach a consensus of delete because the two versions are so close, but I'll distinguish between the two situations. In one case, editors sit down and spend some time looking at the two articles comparing them in reaching a conclusion that despite some superficial changes at the core they are identical. In the other case an admin looks at the two, and season off differences that they feel uncomfortable making the unilateral decision that the differences are superficial.

I understand uncle Roy's concerned that an editor might make superficial changes to a deleted article and repost it but let's follow that through. What do they achieve? They achieve the fact that the article may last for seven days while several editors look at it and reach the conclusion that it's not fundamentally changed. That's a pyrrhic victory, at best. I think it is wise for admins to error on the side of caution. I support the rejection of the G4.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:54, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• Anyone can remove a CSD template, so declining to delete is not an admin action as it doesn't require the tools or even the position of "admin" to do so. There is no review for declined CSD. You can take it to AFD if you want a second bite at the apple. The system is this way on purpose because CSD has very little oversight, whereas AFD has a fair amount. This is why CSD is so strict. The general rule for deleting an article via CSD is "if you aren't positive, then don't." That said, Nyttend's summary was a bit harsh, but I get the feeling we aren't getting the full picture here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:48, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

There's no more picture here to get: this incident was the first time I've communicated with Nyttend, ever. Uncle Roy (talk) 23:49, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• Nyttend has done the same thing to me and it's annoying as hell. Telling an editor to "Don't tag for G4 unless you have solid evidence" is not helpful. The solid evidence is hidden from us mere mortals! An article that is recreated should be able to be tagged G4 on the presumption that it is sufficiently similar because spammers and autobiographers recreate nearly identical articles all the time. Admims who choose to volunteer to review speedy deletion nominations should assume good faith and help new page patrollers rather than create obstacles. - MrX 22:20, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• Once again: if you can't prove that the content is the same, don't tag it. Period. If you wonder, go ask an admin, or go looking on archive.org; don't complain about me if you don't like what's required by the speedy deletion policy. Such a page is almost never an emergency that can't wait, and if it is an emergency, it will qualify under some other criterion or (if it's a really exceptional situation) you can ask an admin for an IAR speedy. Nyttend (talk) 23:27, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• Once again: work with the new page patrollers without making their efforts more difficult. Please. There's nothing in the policy that requires proof before tagging an article for G4. If it annoys you to have to look at G4 nominations, do something else with your time and let a other admins handle them.- MrX 23:45, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• I wouldn't put it as directly as Nyttend is, but if you're not sure that an article is a repost (or a repost with trivial changes), you shouldn't be tagging it for G4. This means either looking at the deleted version if you can, or using an external archive if possible to make some form of comparison. If you can't do these things, you shouldn't guess and tag the article. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 07:00, 30 May 2017 (UTC).

• Since "normal" editors cannot review deleted articles but admins cannot do all the new page patrolling, we should not require the editor reviewing an article to be certain the article meets G4 because they never can. IMHO, it's better to tag G4 when the reviewer can reasonably assume that the new article is sufficiently identical to the old one and let the admins patrolling CAT:CSD check whether that is really the case. That's the only way patrolling can work in any meaningful way. Regards SoWhy 07:19, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

• I think it's not unreasonable to require at least some basis for that belief though that can be articulated, beyond the article title having been reused. That doesn't necessarily have to be looking at the old version of the article using admin tools. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 09:59, 30 May 2017 (UTC).

• The current policy doesn't require it. Can you give an example of what sort of basis for belief would be acceptable, and what sort would not? Uncle Roy (talk) 10:02, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
• Lankiveil I too would like to understand the basis for you interpretation of policy. I have tagged 43 articles for G4 deletion. Of those, two still exist, but the overwhelming majority have been deleted under G4. In almost every instance, I judged the articles to be legitimate G4 candidates based on some combination of the subject, the AfD discussion, the manner in which the article was created, and in very few cases, archived content on a Wikipedia mirror. Note: I have suggested the new page patrollers be granted the privilege of viewing deleted content, but was told that that is not likely to happen for reasons that seem completely non-sensical. I fear we're loosing a lot of ground on the torrent of non-encyclopedic crap ruining the integrity of the project. This is just one more example of WP:BURO making it more difficult to fix that problem, without any justification of how it benefits Wikipedia.- MrX 12:25, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

• @Lankiveil: I think we are actually in agreement there. The method MrX mentions is imho sufficient for a non-admin user to decide whether G4 probably applies, even without looking at the deleted page. Speedy taggings are after all just requests for administrators to review whether the page meets one of the criteria. Regards SoWhy 13:22, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

• @SoWhy and MrX: I think we're in agreement, the stuff MrX says sounds good enough for me, especially if it is resulting in a high success rate as it is in MrX's case. This is probably assisted by the significant amount of experience that MrX has though, and might not be applicable to newer patrollers. I just want some thought put into the process, rather than a mashing of the G4 button. It really assists me as an admin as well to put some explanatory notes in there if it's not a blatantly obvious open-and-shut case, as occasionally I see G4 where it's not immediately obvious what it's a recreation of. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 00:37, 31 May 2017 (UTC).

• The current policy wording at WP:G4 is too vague, and the clarifications made here need to be added there. So snapping at me, User:MrX and others I can see in your edit history about wrong tagging for G4 is not going to prevent other editors from making this same mistake. How about we instead work on improving the wording at WP:G4? Uncle Roy (talk) 23:49, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• I would be opposed to clarifying CSD A4 to automatically enshrine one user's personal preference, but a discussion would certainly be useful. There are more than 22,000 unreviewed articles in the new page queue. More bureaucratic hurdles is exactly what we don't need right now.- MrX 00:26, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

• No one user's personal preference is going to get enshrined, and no new hurdles need be added. I'm only asking for one or two sentences of clarification to G4, and naturally there will be extensive discussion before altering the wording of WP:CSD to better reflect the policy articulated here, which I assume is the outcome of discussions on other pages. Uncle Roy (talk) 00:32, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

• I particularly remember a discussion about changed wording back in 2013 because I started it and it rather decisively went against my suggestion: Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 50#Wording of G4 criterion. Here are some other earlier discussions you could maybe look at. Also, for interest rather than immediate relevance, User:Newyorkbrad/Newyorkbradblog#Clear remedies, arbitration decisions, and AE and (but only if you have the time) the blog item it links to. Thincat (talk) 09:12, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

• Is there really no way of clarifying any of this to editors who have simply read WP:G4, but haven't searched talk archives to work out what it really means? What about a separate, non-binding policy essay, linked from WP:G4, with a link to that discussion? Uncle Roy (talk) 09:45, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Requesting review of puzzling admin behavior

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The result of this back and forth [7] [8] [9] was the outright removal of my comment,[10] which looks problematic to me (and there is some irony in deleting a comment that mentions WP:ADMINACCT). Despite having filed a number of SPIs over the years (all successful), I cannot fathom what is going on here. I just want to clean up articles affected by this sockmaster, as I've done before. There were successful checkuser results in previous cases, and I don't see why we should assume there won't be now. Perhaps there is some reason for avoiding checkuser here; if so then I would like to know what it is, but the admin in question has refused to provide an explanation. Manul ~ talk 21:45, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

The answer seems obvious to me: the admin in question, a dastardly fellow who has nothing but their own welfare at heart and doesn't care a tinker's cuss for Wikipedia, is on the take, in the pocket of the sockmaster you are attempting to bring to justice. The admin ought to be drawn-and-quartered, tar-and-feathered, hogtied, and then made to walk the plank.

Oh ... wait, I just noticed that after the admin told you that he wasn't going to do a checkuser (which is perfectly within his purview), you never followed up to ask for an explanation as to why, simply came here and filed a report. Well... nevermind. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:59, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• He did ask why but Bbb deleted the thread. That is the only part that concerns me. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:02, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• BMK, would you please strike your comment, at least in part? As Dennis notes, I did ask. However your comment is interesting insofar as it highlights the problem: people don't expect -- as you didn't expect -- someone's comment to be deleted like that. It causes the conversation to be misrepresented; it's bad form. Manul ~ talk 03:57, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

No, I'm not going to strike it, either in full or in part. It can stand as is, with Dennis' correction to it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:41, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

• I don't have all the back story, so I won't jump to conclusions. That said, Bbb23 does seem to be unnecessarily harsh here, I'm just not sure why. Perhaps he can explain more as to why he removed and not allowed another CU to see and possibly review. Oh, and WP:adminacct really doesn't extend to CU actions, although it does to all other actions a CU does. They don't have to explain why they won't do a CU check. Most still give a sentence or two, but that is about it. They answer directly to ArbCom and have to justify every check they do, but they don't have to answer for any check they didn't do. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:02, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• I don't have to justify to ArbCom every check I do. Putting that aside, I answered the question in the case itself. Then Manul kept bringing it back up and repeating it over and over. Then he came to my Talk page to do the same thing. I told him to stop "harping" on it. It was only after that I removed his edit. I ran out of patience. I don't make it a practice - and neither do most CheckUsers - of passing on a CU request to another CheckUser if I think it should be declined. That doesn't mean they can't check if they wish, but in this kind of case, it would be unusual. BTW, I expected that Manul would bring the issue here or to ANI. Some people simply don't know when to let go and move on.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:10, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• Perhaps I phrased it wrong or you misunderstood, but my understanding is that any CU does have to justify any use of the CU tools to Arb, (implied) when asked, but they don't answer to the community directly for it's use or lack of use. Also, I wasn't implying you hand it off to another CU, only that other CUs have cases in full view. Again, not sure how, but this seems to have been misunderstood. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:34, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• Most of the CU checks were done several years ago so unless something was recorded on the CUwiki (which there probably wouldn't be for such a relatively small case) CU might not be helpful. --Rschen7754 22:53, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• @Dennis, I'm not sure what you mean by "cases in full view", but if you mean that anytime a CU declines a check request and the requester complains, I have to reinstate it, that's crazy. In any event, this is a waste of time. I declined it because the case was stale and rarely will I run a check on a single account looking for other accounts that match it. I consider it fishing and not a useful expenditure of my time. Your understanding, as expressed, about ArbCom is not really right, although I understand where it's coming from. That's not their remit. @Rschen, the last check on this case was in 2012. I don't look at CU wiki every time I decline a CU in case someone recorded data there that would be useful. This was a simple and easy decline, and this will probably be my last comment.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:09, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• I have zero concern that you refused to do the CU. I don't have the data, I trust your judgement to peek or not, not really interested in that aspect at all. Deleting the thread did seem unnecessary. Even if he was persistent, he was polite and it seems in good faith, it wasn't vandalism or trolling. I assume the standard is the same as here or ANI, if you turn someone down, you just let it get archived with the rest. That simply struck me as unusual. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:13, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

• Dennis, you do realize the comment Bbb23 removed was on User talk:Bbb23 not the SPI. The whole conversation on the SPI was archived. ~ GB fan 11:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

• Ah, that point was lost on me. For some reason I thought it was a WP: page. Thank you for the correction. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:34, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Bbb23's brimming contempt is so unwarranted, so unnecessary, so inappropriate. For the first time he gives a rationale, but it's a preposterous one: he thinks it's fishing. Wikipedia:CheckUser#Fishing says: "Fishing" is to check an account where there is no credible evidence to suspect sockpuppetry. The case here is precisely the opposite -- it is precisely not fishing. There is ample evidence for the sock, an admin affirmed the sock with further evidence, and the sock has been blocked. Bbb23 also says here that "the case was stale", but according to his own words the sock in question is not stale.[11]

The problems I encountered with Bbb23's behavior in 2013 are very much the same as what I am encountering here. I won't get into it, but needless to say he has a bizarre animus, as further evidenced in this thread. Taking that point alongside the aforementioned proposterous rationale, I would ask another checkuser (if any are listening) to please look at the case. Manul ~ talk 03:48, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

For what it's worth, as a former SPI clerk (and former steward) I have seen cases like this declined. But what concerns me is your mention with 2013: so what you're saying is that four years ago Bbb23 did something you didn't like, and now you're still bringing it up against him? I'm not sure that is productive, to say the least. --Rschen7754 04:29, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

@Rschen7754: I'd be quite surprised if cases exist that are at all similar to this one, wherein a sock has been positively identified and blocked based upon ample evidence, yet, for some reason, we shouldn't identify other socks to aid in the cleanup. If you would point to such an example it may help explain what is going on here, because the situation still doesn't make sense on its own merits, that is, unless we factor in Bbb23's clear animus, which is the only reason I mentioned 2013 (it shows a pattern in this regard).

It would also help to look at a practical issue in this case: let's take the history of Synergy.[12] As I mentioned in the SPI, there seem to be unreverted socks there (before right now, anyway -- I just did a large revert), in particular Ch.nidal (talk · contribs), Dodoloyede (talk · contribs), Robertnw (talk · contribs), and Jammypot93 (talk · contribs). Perhaps if I listed those in the SPI, the checkuser request would have had a different outcome. However in all my SPI experience, providing ample evidence for one sock is enough to catch the others via checkuser. It would seem that Bbb23 sees it differently: using a definition of fishing that is contradictory to the defintion in WP:Checkuser, he doesn't believe checkuser should be used here. So the brimming contempt from Bbb23 (though still weird and inappropriate) may not be a factor in the preposterous rationale after all -- just a wrong (but sincerely held) understanding of what "fishing" is. Manul ~ talk 12:40, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Manul, If I am reading this right your concern is that Bbb23 didn't explain to your satisfaction why he didn't use the CU tool. He explained when he declined the CU request on 13:18, 26 May 2017 that all the accounts were stale except one, so there was nothing to to check that one against. Then there was some back and forth where you wanted the CU request reopened based on it being an obvious sock. Now when he explains in more detail why he won't do a CU it is "preposterous". Bbb23 can have a more stringent definition of fishing than the policy does, he just can't make it looser. ~ GB fan 11:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

@GB fan: Bbb23 isn't free to use a contradictory definition of fishing, which is what he did. Manul ~ talk 12:40, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Manul, actually he is free to use a definition that is stricter than the one used in the policy. As long as his definition keeps him from doing the fishing that the policy precludes him from doing he can restrict himself further. At no time is he required to do a CU and if he does not believe one should be used he can decline them on SPIs. As Dennis explains no admin/CU/OS is required to explain why they don't use the tools. WP:ADMINACCT only requires admins to explain why they used the tools when asked. It does not discuss anything about CU use. There are specific procedures if you believe there is misuse of the CU tool at Wikipedia:CheckUser#Complaints and misuse. ~ GB fan 13:22, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

@GB fan: I was using the word fishing more colloquially, meaning checking on the off chance that you'll find another account. Because the word fishing has a technical meaning, which I'm familiar with, I shouldn't have used it. Separately, if a user believes a CheckUser violated the privacy policy in their use of the tool, they can file a complaint. It's hard to accuse me of that given that I declined to use the tool. --Bbb23 (talk) 15:59, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

• Now that the one point is cleared up (my mistake) I would again repeat that no CU is required to use the tools. Hammering him is pointless and obviously annoying. And again, CU is not required to explain why they won't use the tools. The same is true for admin, actually. We don't have to ever explain why we don't use the tools. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:36, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
• Manul, I see that you filed a case with the CU request but didn't have the evidence fully fleshed out. You were expecting the admin that you pinged to respond and help with that before a clerk or CU might see the case and act. It didn't turn out as you planned. In the future, I would suggest that if you want to take that kind of approach that you file a case without the CU request. That way, you and others may get the evidence squared away sufficiently for a CU check and then upgrade the case with a CU request. That is a perfectly acceptable approach. Also, I see that you were quite disappointed when there was a "decline" on the case. Do you believe that once a case is declined that no clerk/checkuser/patrolling admin might endorse a check or otherwise provide CU results?
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 15:06, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Berean Hunter, thanks, this is constructive and I accept this correction wholeheartedly: I shouldn't write a partial SPI with checkuser request that says "hang on for so-and-so to show up". If I do submit a partial SPI (this is the first time I've done that (just saving time by leveraging existing knowledge)), I should set the checkuser flag later, after so-and-so shows up.

But please note that there were two stages here. After sufficient evidence was given, after so-and-so (an admin) did show up and provided additional evidence, after the sock was ready to be blocked, after I asked Bbb23 to re-evaluate the request at his talk page, at that point Bbb23's rejection of the request didn't make any sense, his contemptuous refusal to provide an explanation didn't make any sense, and his contemptuous deletion of my comment didn't make any sense. Others here have focused on whether Bbb23 has a right to do that, but the important issue is that, whether he has a right to do it or not (let's accept that he does), it didn't make any sense. Manul ~ talk 18:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

But it does. :) He did a straightforward procedural decline noting the accounts in the archive were stale. He was saving time for other CUs by noting the stale part. You asked him to "reopen" the case. He pointed out that the case wasn't closed. You then asked him to "reopen the checkuser request" and presumed that because an admin blocked on behavior that this was compelling though it misses that you are trying to convince the checkuser. Pointing out to a checkuser that an admin was convinced is not sufficient on its own merits. Also, this brings us back to my question from the previous post. That is, because it was declined that it had passed a point of no return. Not necessarily but the turn of events may have taken it that way. I think you dug in your heels without realizing that CU was still possible. Going forward, please be mindful of the info contained in this template (do not try to edit this template, verboten, more on that further down). That info is the critical bit that can best optimize your chances of getting a checkuser to run a check. Don't worry about the cu status, that isn't as important as you may think. You're trying a little too hard on that.

This post has several problems as things started to get conflated. It reads like "an admin did their job, now do yours" and the lower portion of the post is problematic because it reads as if you were about to take propriety where you shouldn't. "On the technical side, it's about time these SPIs were merged..." sounds like you're making a unilateral decision while the CURequest status was still an unsettled issue. "I would do this myself, but (1) maybe an admin needs to affirm the sockmaster first and (2) maybe history merging is preferred anyway." <== This reveals faulty understanding in how SPI works. Verboten. Not even patrolling admins get to do that. Only clerks and checkusers may merge cases or select certain CU status indicators. BOLD and SPI are not a good mix here. When in doubt, ask at WT:SPI.

"Rather than spending time presenting evidence from square one, as if the person reviewing the SPI had no knowledge of the history, I had hoped to leverage existing knowledge". That is a mistake. I understand that this would be a labor-saving shortcut (for you) but you will find yourself at cross-purposes. Sit back and think about it...you want more editors and admins to join you in hunting this sock. You don't want to rely on that one admin that's familiar...you want more to find the case. Folks often devolve into writing "Same as usual", "It's in the archive" or something else that means we have to dig more than we should. I'm telling you from experience that this is a great way to get your case ignored. I have closed out tabs before when seeing that and ignored some myself.

Now that there is an account in the archive that fits in the three month data retention window for checkuser, you should take Ed's advice "Manul, I assume you would be looking for registered sleepers, as well as registered accounts that are causing trouble that we are not aware of yet...." and "...that somebody who was very patient could go through these articles and check for any past disruption from 91.* IPs that was never corrected." Right, you could help the CU's by finding accounts for them to compare. They can't necessarily make your case for you or find every sleeper. I have seen results come up negative only to have someone present an already existing account that then shows positive. It may require more time...patience helps when hunting socks.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 23:52, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Moving forward

Let's refocus by asking the question: What is best for the encyclopedia? That is my underlying motivation here, and if I were to redo my initial post here, I would use that framing. I just want to remove the plethora of nonsense coming from the prolific Mad Lad From Saint Petersburg, as I have been doing for years. Checkuser will help in that endeavor. Evidence has identified a named sock and that sock has been blocked; therefore it's not fishing. The sock is recent; therefore it's not stale.

Despite running up against this wall, I would still like to move forward and do what's best for the encyclopedia. I think it would be best to find any hitherto undiscovered nonsense inserted by the Mad Lad From Saint Petersburg. Would it be OK to file another SPI with checkuser request, perhaps listing other possible socks mentioned earlier in my response to Rschen7754? Or perhaps a checkuser would be willing to look at Attractor321 (talk · contribs) outside of a new SPI? Manul ~ talk 18:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

AIV is backlogged again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

There are 19 reports at WP:AIV right now (6 bot and 13 user reports). —MRD2014 📞 contribs 00:28, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

In the words of the immortal Inspector Clouseau: Not any more. GoldenRing (talk) 11:16, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Allyhall321

I don't know why, but I have some red flags going up on this user. Seems like they're WP:SOCKing. I have no evidence, and I don't want to accuse them of being a sock. But I would like some further input.—CYBERPOWER (Around) 21:53, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

I think you just have accused them of socking :) GiantSnowman 22:01, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Not meaning to sound accusatory. Call it a suspicion since I have 0 experience with socks. Hence me asking for more input at AN. :p—CYBERPOWER (Message) 23:03, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Was blocked for disruptive editing by Berean Hunter. I have no idea about if the user was socking, but my concerns were mostly promotion and original research... — PaleoNeonate — 02:22, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
• Indeffed for disruptive editing. We were certainly being messed with...he wrote a bizarre rant over an article submission with this. I imagine that he confused the COI editor whose article he overwrote. The books on his userpage that he authored (?) do not seem to exist. This is certainly a sock.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:27, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

• Wow, yeah, I can see the COI editor getting confused. "What happened to my article? Bad enough that someone wants it deleted, but then someone else puts gibberish on top of it?" Nyttend (talk) 04:12, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks for the comments.—CYBERPOWER (Message) 04:24, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
• Would an uninvolved admin like to try asking them about the overwrite or their editing in general? They have offered some kind of explanation and an unformed unblock request on their talk page. I don't see a reason to unblock so I'll let others consider it.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:23, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

  I don't know that I'm strictly uninvolved, but I suppose I was a little short with them on my talk page, so I should probably try to explain things a little more. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:27, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Fenix Down / Best Known For IP

Need a clear community consensus. We have a long-standing troll, documented at Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP.

It's a tough issue. He's now landed on a few difficult to block, high traffic ranges. His MO is the same as it ever was; pick random articles that use superlatives, then fix them. Not a bad problem to have, except that when he runs into a content dispute, he'll inevitably freak out, leading to personal attacks and eventually death threats. There have been thousands of blocks, and dozens of community discussions. The community ban is here.

He also will return to every single content dispute he's been in. An an example will be the article at Greece national football team. He's been removing a questionable section there for a year or so. He's been reverted in the past by Jdcomix, Keri, Andy Dingley, Sro23, Exemplo347, ScrapIronIV, Bretonbanquet and triggered a semi-protection by BU Rob13. He returned yesterday and I reverted him twice, blocking the IP and noting the reason for the revert in the edit summary and explicitly in the block message.

Admin Fenix down reverted me as he liked the article without the content. This is reasonable, and usually I'd just leave it. Unfortunately, I hit the revert button reflexively and immediately self-reverted when I noticed it was not just a rotated IP. Also, unfortunately, I was given a 24 hour block for "edit warring". No attempt at communication or clarification; simply a block for reverting his content decision. He unblocked when he noticed the self-revert which occurred prior to the block.

Follow-up discussion on his talk page was fruitless. He's unwilling to look in to the long-term issue "based on my word". He also does not recognize that by making that last content decision, he's an editor in the article and should not be placing WP:INVOLVED blocks against those who reverted him, mistake or not.

So I'd like a discussion here on 1) Review of Fenix Down's block 2) how best to handle the LTA issue. Happy to stand down from dealing with that particular banned editor until there's some consensus on how best to handle. Obviously, my approach to this LTA issue can be modified based on feedback. Kuru (talk) 13:13, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

• Ooof, that conversation on Fenix down's talkpage makes painful reading. You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid - if you're restoring a banned editor's non-trivial edits, you're taking responsibility for them, and that means you're WP:INVOLVED as regards that article. Blocking an experienced editor (and admin, which is relevant here - this is someone who should know LTA accounts) whilst involved and not even bothering to check the LTA status of the IP/editor who was removing the material strikes me as very, very sub-optimal indeed. Fenix down is probably quite lucky that Kuru self-reverted, because I suspect if he had not, he would still be blocked, and that wouldn't turn out well. Black Kite (talk) 13:29, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
• (EC - I see Black Kite made essentially the same point) Assuming 'Best known for' is actually banned, all their edits may be reverted on sight. Likewise they may be reinstated by any editor who is willing to take responsibility for the edits. This would be a content dispute. By taking ownership of a banned editors edits, Fenix clearly WP:INVOLVED themselves in a content issue, and then used their tools while involved in a dispute. From their talkpage they also seem to not understand 3rr, what involved actually means, or how banned LTA editors are dealt with. There is also the issue that in a content dispute, unless there is a reason why information should be removed (BLP, copyvio etc) the status quo should remain until the dispute is resolved. But frankly they cant have it both ways, either you were reverting the edits of a banned editor - which are exempt from 3RR, or you were subsequently engaged in an edit war over content with Fenix, in which case they should not have even thought about blocking. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:38, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
• Fair enough, at the time I read banned as blocked and was not aware that this was the best known for IP banned user as these edits were not aligned to what I understood to be his usual behavior. Appreciate that this block was therefore totally not called for and happy to take admonishment for it as incorrect and too hasty. I do however stand by my points below though that regardless of the status of this user, the actions of a number of editors over a long period of time in blindly reverting a banned user have led to the repeated reinsertion of a significant element of OR/NPOV content that should never have been there. Fenix down (talk) 13:54, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

A couple of points, firstly, I reversed the block as soon as I saw the self-revert and would not have blocked had I seen this first. Perhaps a little hasty on my part. However, I'm not really interested in the LTA angle here. Whatever this IP has done in the past, their edits to Greece national football team have merely been to remove a section of "Notable matches" which contain no inclusion criteria nor any sourced prose outlining why they are there.

Sections of "Notable foo" which have no clear inclusion criteria, nor any sourced prose to back up the claim of specific notability are by definition original research and not neutral as it is impossible to ascertain why any element has been included / excluded and what, if anything another edit might add to the section. In my opinion, in this specific instance unless editors can show that this section is not in direct violation of these key policies, then they had no right per BANREVERT, to revert their removal, as the edits were obviously helpful, and were therefore edit warring. Arguably edit warring in good faith, but nonetheless, Kuru, and a number of editors listed above, were simply blindly going through the motions of reverting without considering what they were actually doing.

This was my stance when I blocked Kuru. I felt that there was no justifiable reason per BANREVERT and he was therefore just edit warring. My revert was there in my opinion not INVOLVED as it was of a purely administrative nature; namely to remove content that was in clear contravention of fundamental WP policies. The fact that he immediately then reverted me without attempting to discuss further or even add an edit summary suggested that he was edit warring, hence the block. As soon as I saw the self-revert I unblocked. I accept if I had take a minute or so longer then this could have been avoided.

However, in this instance it is important to separate the wider LTA issue from edits to this specific article, as a significant number of editors have been adding back OR / NPOV content simply because it is being removed by a banned user. The series of edit wars could have been avoided had any one of these editors actually stopped to think about what they were doing rather than blindly reverting and either not reverted or at any point bothered to seek consensus either on the article talk page or at WT:FOOTY then they may well have found that editors preferred not to have a meaningless OR/NPOV list of matches in an article. Fenix down (talk) 13:31, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

"However, I'm not really interested in the LTA angle here. "'

Then you need to get interested in it sharpish, or you should no longer be an admin.

Quite obviously you did not block Kuru for edit warring, but for lèse-majesté by reverting you, not LTA. I would remind you, reverting an admin is not a crime. But you blocked immediately, thanks to the red mist of having been reverted yourself, and you did this without any discussion, against another admin, and without even bothering to read the edit summaries of the preceding edits.

If you blocked "for edit warring", that is a claim by yourself that you have looked at the history of the article - but clearly you hadn't.

The block is bad enough, but now you're making excuses for it on the basis that you're not intending to observe WP:DENY. Are you planning to block any other editors who do observe it? I for one am very concerned about such a threat - there are already plenty of admins who think that DENY is withheld when it's applied to their banned friends, but here you seem to be stating that you're just not interested in LTA at all and clearly you're happy to block people regardless.

DENY applies to you too. Editors (and not just admins) are at liberty to enforce it on problem editors such as LTA and we do not need a block-happy admin deciding to block other gf editors for cleaning up their mess. Even if the "change" might be "a good one" (stopped clocks being right twice a day and all). Restoring such content is a matter for Talk: discussion, but that has to recognise all through that process (per DENY) other editors are still at liberty to remove it, and it is not a blockable offence to disagree with you as to its virtues.

As an editor who does a lot of cleanup work around persistent trolls and socks, I want to see a clear statement from you here and now that you have read WP:DENY and that you are going to observe WP:NOT3RR §3 in the future. Otherwise this needs to start a desysopping. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:15, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Feel I have made that statement above, but happy to reiterate that I read "banned" as "blocked" and if I had realized that this IP had a community ban I would have seen that DENY and NOT3RR#3 were relevant and would have spoken to Kuru rather than assuming edit warring. Fenix down (talk) 14:40, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Fenix down, suggest you read WP:3RRNO again. "Reverting actions performed by banned users in violation of their ban, and sockpuppets of banned or blocked users." But really, this is a red herring. You made a content edit so you are precluded from using the tools against an editor reverting you, period. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:46, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Acknowledged, I won't act incorrectly in such haste in future. Fenix down (talk) 14:51, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

• Fenix, this is the second time I've seen your name here lately, on the wrong side of good judgement (Month or so ago). If you have an issue with another admin's admin actions and it isn't urgent that you block to prevent damage, you take them to WP:AN for review. Your explanation of WP:involved is labored, to put it mildly. Blocking him without discussion was just plain stupid. Good judgement is a requirement for keeping the admin bit and acts like this put that bit in peril. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:11, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

You're right it was totally the wrong thing to do, I should have discussed it with him in the first place. Fenix down (talk) 16:26, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

The point is: While it's true we have an enforceable policy against too many reverts, it's also true that there's an exception for Reverting actions performed by banned users in violation of their ban; if a user clims to be doing that (and you need to check the edit summeries for such a claim), there is no justification for blocking the user unless either the claim is obviously wrong (and with an admin you'd better have extremely good evidence), or you've tried to discuss it with the user and got no reasonably satsfactory answer. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 04:55, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Possible issue with non-free files with orphaned versions

I don't know where else to post this because I'm not even sure what's causing the problem (can't find any issue with the template, nor with the bots that tagged these). The following files seemingly refuse to show up in Category:Non-free files with orphaned versions more than 7 days old no matter how many times I purge the pages involved or make null edits:

• File:Windows 95 Desktop screenshot.png
• File:Windows NT 4.0.png
• File:Windows NT 3.5.png
• File:Windows 3.0 workspace.png

Modernponderer (talk) 13:55, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something, but the first one shouldn't show up in that category because it doesn't qualify. That category is for images where prior versions have not yet been deleted. This particular case all the prior images have been deleted.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:25, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

User:Sphilbrick, the revisions were deleted after I posted this. But there still seems to be something very wrong with the category: it looks like it doesn't list the files beyond a certain number of them, as I'm seeing an alphabetical order that ends with D, with no option to go to the next page.

If someone with technical knowledge could take a closer look at all of this it would be appreciated, as I'm almost sure the problem is not fixed. Modernponderer (talk) 14:32, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that there is no problem. I work with that category extensively. It is quite common for the entries in that category to appear to be a nonrandom subset in terms of initial letter for two reasons. If the newly populated items are roughly a consistent reflection of the alphabet, when I work on deleting them I often start on the second page and go to the end, which means early part of the alphabet is overrepresented. A second reason more likely to be the case here, is that the bot that populates these entries is generally picking them up from a bot that does the reduction. Those bots typically have some throttling to make sure they do not send too many images in a large batch. While I haven't checked the gory details, my assumption is that the bot doing the reduction, or the bot identifying images needing reduction doesn't identify all available images but only a subset per throttling rules, and this is likely to produce a set of images from a narrow selection of initial letters. I have often seen a new population of images from a narrow selection of the alphabet. As an aside, someone is supposedly working on a bot to carry out the removal, which I hope happen soon because manually clearing them is mindlessly numbing.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:49, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

User:Sphilbrick, that may indeed be a reasonable explanation for the category behavior I was seeing. But I still do not understand why these images that I had periodically monitored for several days never showed up in it. Again, I had tried purging the pages (images and category), making a null edit to the template, etc. Nothing worked, even though most of them were long past the initial 7-day period after tagging. If you can think of a reason for this phenomenon as well, do let me know, as I'm completely baffled about it at this point. Modernponderer (talk) 19:55, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

User:Carolus

(previous discussion: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive953#Editor "translating" person's names and other problems from early May 2017)

Multiple users have contacted User:Carolus about issues with his article creations and additions, including (but not limited to) sourcing problems. One such problem is that sources like "RD 8.4.1932" or "RD 21.7.1924" (only source on Hubert Krains) are not understandable to our readers at all. This has been noted during the past few days by User:Reb1981, User:Andreas Philopater and myself, while User:Boleyn has tagged similar articles for sourcing issues as well (see e.g. Werner van den Steen de Jehay). User:TonyBallioni has also suggested that Carolus should change his approach to article creation and perhaps develop them in draft space first. Carolus' response to this polite and patient editor was "If you want it back, then stop crying, i have other things to do. sorry, but do not delete and come back crying" which was completely missing the point.

Now, his latest reply to the requests to change his "RD date" sources to something readable and understandable is "No, i will do as i like, evreryone understands the meaning of an RD in Belgium."[13] Never mind that we don't write for people in Belgium but for people around the world, and that both I and (I think) Andreas Philopater are Belgians and still had trouble understanding what was meant...

Considering this reply, his approach to editing, his manner in other discussions (see the previous ANI discussion, and see User talk:Carolus#Belgian monarchs and related pages for another recent good example), I think it is time that some sanction is implemented. I don't know which sanction, apart from a block, would prevent all these problems though, as they are not all limited to e.g. article creation. A topic ban from the main space (forcing him to use either draft space or article talk pages) may be a solution. A good mentor, assuming that Carolus is willing to be mentored, is also a possibility. But seeing that his userpage states "This user has been on Wikipedia for 11 years, 9 months and 22 days." I fear that no swift and easy change should be expected. Fram (talk) 11:57, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

You choose Fram, 1/ i leave EN wiki, or you leave me in peace, no other options; you decide. Do not wast my time, and say what you want. I have a problem with you as well, but i do not cry like a child. So let me know your decision. --Carolus (talk) 12:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

@Fram: The most cursory of checks would have verified that this user has been on Wikipedia for about 2 years. --Izno (talk) 12:09, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

And a somewhat more indepth check would have verified that this user has been on Wikipedia for 11 years, with the first 6 or so on nlwiki (where they got indef blocked), then a hiatus, and now 2 years on enwiki. Fram (talk) 12:11, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Izno, don't you understand Fram?? He is very clear? But i don't get the point if someone is blocked elsewere? If Fram does not see that a Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Leopold II is enough notability, then he has a serious issue about the facts of wiki. --Carolus (talk) 12:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

As I can see the situation: A user gets blocked on Dutch Wikipedia for sock puppetry (the block reason includes a URL to their equivilent of our WP:SPI), joins us a couple of years later, and creates pages with cryptic source data, and he says that No, i will do as i like, evreryone understands the meaning of an RD in Belgium [sic]. We need sources to be understood by English-language readers, not by Belgians; amd sockpuppetry elsewhere is clearly a red flag, IMO. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:22, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

I am not a sockpuppet? I am Carolus? what is your point?--Carolus (talk) 12:30, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

OK, forget other solutions, time to indef block them for WP:CIR. His latest claim is that he doesn't write full biographies because "people will change them anyway because of 1/ their oppinion, and 2/ the spelling errors. The last one is discriminating people who do not speak fully english"[14]. Yep, you read that right, correcting spelling errors in encyclopedia articles is now a form of discrimination... Fram (talk) 12:39, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Not sure if "mentor" is the word, since Carolus has been active longer than I have, but I would be willing to partner with him – for example if he's willing to create new articles in draft space I'd be happy to check them through and move them to main space. His interests to some extent overlap with mine, and I've effectively been revising his work as and when it shows up on User:AlexNewArtBot/BelgiumSearchResult anyway. (I'm not actually a Belgian, but I did spend a year in Belgium as a student, and have been working in Belgium for the past couple of years.) --Andreas Philopater (talk) 13:14, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
• I've left Carolus a final warning. If they carry on editing like this, I'll simply block them. Black Kite (talk) 13:17, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
• This was the response to the final warning. I think we're quickly approaching a CIR block for not wanting to work with the community on the issues presented. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:08, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • i don't get the point? being blocked for a sockpuppet of 5 years ago? Ok, then block me please.--Carolus (talk) 14:10, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

As for the Belgian monarchs situation, I agreed to compromise on that topic (even though we don't chronologically number monarchs), in order to stop the edit warring. PS - Again, Philippe's title is "King of the Belgians", not "seventh King of the Belgians".

GoodDay (talk) 14:15, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Carolus You really might want to tone it down, you're not going to win any allies by issuing ultimatums. Also, the RD (Royal Decree - which you explained on your talk page ) isn't referenced anywhere online, nor is it referenced as a printed item (no ISBN numbers or anything ) so I'm not sure it can be used.

Regarding R.D's, if this was the Dutch Wikipedia you could possibly get away with "everybody knows what RD's are, however on the American English Wikipedia, none of us really knows what that is, you would need to explain that, otherwise someone could, potentially remove it as "unreferenced".  Ҝ Ø Ƽ Ħ  14:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

@KoshVorlon: I didn't realise that wall had been built already  ;) I think it's still the English Wikipedia though :D  !!! — O Fortuna ^{semper crescis, aut decrescis} 14:24, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Wall? Fortuna_Imperatrix_Mundi , BLP violation removed  !  Ҝ Ø Ƽ Ħ  14:43, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• In online discussions it's often helpful to sleep on things before reaching a decision. Carolus isn't a vandal, and a tetchy response in not unusual online even from the calmest of characters. As to the American Wikipedia – I'll bite my tongue. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 14:28, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • OK guys? what is "tetchy", me no speak uk?? and who is Carlous?--Carolus (talk) 14:31, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
    • @Carolus: "Tetchy" is not "uk", tetchy is English. I'd like to see a clear response from you regarding the sourcing concerns others have brought up, please. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:41, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
      • If you expect me to change my sourcing, sorry, no can do. There are no other sources. But that is not my problem. If you realy think you can do better, yourself, please be me guest. If you don't like it, please delete them, no problem. Better it it is not getting, but your choice. Some people like to make a point by deleting articles, i like to create articles to make my point. that is all. So, perhaps you should only allow UK people to write, then the world would be happy. So, now my question, again, what has an old sockpuppet here to do? What is that point?--Carolus (talk) 14:55, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Creating articles to make a point, could be seen as a violation of WP:POINT, however. GoodDay (talk) 15:00, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, indead, so please block me, naughty me. :D--Carolus (talk) 15:11, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• • • • • @Carolus: I expect you to provide enough info about a source so that a competent English reader can discern what the source actually is so they can find it if they should choose. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:16, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Carolus as you've shown on Augustine Kasujja, you do in fact know how to create articles with better sourcing. Like I've said to you on your talk page: the articles you create are almost always notable, but also almost always not fully in line with what we expect for an article in the main space. I'd really suggest working in the draft space to develop the articles first, or even send it through AfC. We want your contributions here, but when they involve living people in particular, and biographies in general, we tend to prefer clear sourcing upon creation. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:18, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Carolus, the editors here want you to use a standard format for citing a Royal Decree. I don't personally know what that is, maybe someone else could link to a guide? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:20, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Carolus has in fact been improving these references over the course of the day, e.g. this diff. It's an improvement, although it still isn't optimal. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 16:02, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Right, they're referring to specific source material although not in a standardized citation format. I imagine there is one for this type of source, probably similar to citing a legal statute? But I don't know what to suggest. {{cite act}} maybe? It would also be helpful if Carolus could provide a link to where they're finding these sources, if they are online. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

The standard format in Dutch would be "KB 1923-7-21", in French "AR 1923-7-21" (with KB/AR standing for "royal decree" in the respective languages). Carolus's attempt to translate this into English as "RD 21-7-1923" is what triggered this round of scrutiny of his editing. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 16:24, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

tetchy = irritable --Andreas Philopater (talk) 14:35, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• • I will just add, as I've already mentioned on my talkpage, I once put a new article on nlwiki. Within minutes it was at AfD with people mocking my poor Dutch rather than discussing the substantive merits. My response was, I have to admit, not dignified. Hitting the right tone in a foreign language in an online forum is very tricky, especially when people seem to be knocking your good-faith efforts. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 14:33, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
• On Belgian Royal Orders as sources: these are published in the Moniteur belge (or Belgisch staatsblad - basically the Belgian Gazette), which is only online from 2003 onwards (barring some scans of 19th-century copies that crop up unsystematically on Google Books or Internet Archive). Going by deeds rather than by words, Carolus has in fact made an effort to improve these references, and as they are to paper-only sources it is true not much more can be done to improve them, but they should ideally include a reference to the issue number and/or date of the Moniteur belge in which they appear. If "RD 21.7.1923" in fact means "Royal order as published in the Belgisch Staatsblad/Moniteur belge of 21 July 1923" then something like that would be best as a reference. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 16:17, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Dear Andreas, you are almost Correct, the date is when the King has signed the koninklijk Besluit, but this can be put in the Staatsblad on a different date. You should ask concrete someone who knows the procedure of the procedures of a Koninklijk Besluit. I am not a Legal specialist, but i know that only after they appear in the Staatsblad, the royal decision is legal. I realy am suprised nobody never heard of this basic rules of Belgian law.--Carolus (talk) 19:20, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Not having the paper publication myself, I cannot know whether you are giving the date of the decree or of its publication (this is why references are important: so those of us who don't have the publication in front of us know where to look!). So the ideal reference would be: "Royal order of 21 July 1923, published in the Belgisch Staatsblad/Moniteur belge of xx [month] xxxx"--Andreas Philopater (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok then i wil stop writing those articles, because that is realy impossible, i do not have time for that. --Carolus (talk) 19:58, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

That's your call. But you could keep the format handy as <ref>"[[Royal order (Belgium)|Royal order]] of [date], published in the ''[[Belgian official journal|Belgisch Staatsblad/Moniteur belge]]'' of [date]"</ref> (on your user page, say) and just copy/paste it and fill in the dates when editing. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 20:24, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Carolus, you have been offered some really excellent advice, and I ask that you please please please consider carefully following it, or adapt in some other equivalent way. As a reader, I would have had no idea what a reference reading "RD 21-07-1923" or something like it actually meant. I would find it useless for either trying to find or verify, or to use to obtain further information (wording, for example). I would be stuck, and I doubt that you would want every reader who is trying to understand it to come and ask you, potentially years after you have made the edit. By contrast, if you follow the advice from Andreas Philopater, you would leave a reference that tells me that the source is a Royal order from the Belgian monarch, and I could follow a wikilink to find out more about what that is. It would be clear that 21-07-1923 was a date and not some sort of file reference. I would know that it would be published in the Belgisch Staatsblad/Moniteur Belge and the wiki article or a google search would tell me that it is only available offline for that date. I would have a concrete date to start searching. If you happened to have the title of the royal order, providing that would be helpful too, but even if you don't, the reference would give me an excellent starting point. If you don't know the date of publication, you could at least note "and published shortly afterwards" as something like:

• <ref>"[[Royal order (Belgium)|Royal order]] of [date], published in the ''[[Belgian official journal|Belgisch Staatsblad/Moniteur Belge]]'' shortly afterwards"</ref>
• <ref>"[[Royal order (Belgium)|Royal order]] of [date], titled [title], published in the ''[[Belgian official journal|Belgisch Staatsblad/Moniteur Belge]]'' on [date]"</ref>

For the ones available online, using a {{cite web}} template would provide a link and all the bibliographic information. It is great that you are adding sources to Wikipedia, and I thank you for that, but it would be much more helpful to add them in a way that what they are is clear to a reader... it is really not fair to expect others to change your "RD XX-XX-XXXX" references to something like that shown above, especially as you only need copy and paste the code and insert your XX-XX-XXXX where it says [date] in my first dot point. Please, this is not difficult for you and would be helpful to others. I understand that you may feel stressed / targeted for adding references, but now that it is clear what the references are, might I say that we are all working towards a common goal – high quality and source encyclopaedic content? Please, you are only being asked to make a format change that is for the benefit of readers now and in the future readers. EdChem (talk) 00:31, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• Entirely off-topic. In my time here I have got on with contributing with a minimum of interaction. After finding myself pinged in this discussion I also found myself involved in an editing dispute that I have taken to Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard (hopefully the correct forum). Since this has so far been my only experience of dispute resolution, I have put notifications of that other discussion on the talk pages of a number of the people who took part in this one, in hopes of generating a speedy response (it is somewhat time sensitive). I am not sure where else to ask (and should perhaps have asked first), but I hope this will not be regarded as spam or as undue canvassing? I'm not asking people to agree with me, just to take a look. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 00:36, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

• Question - Why are we bending over backwards to keep an editor who is carrying a chip on their shoulder, won't listen to good advice, is combative and issues ultimata at the drop of a hat, and clearly wants to be blocked? Especially since they have been indeffed for socking on another language Wikipedia, and don't appear to have an especially good grasp of English? What is it we're getting from this editor that makes all this effort worthwhile? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Noticing disturbing trend

I have been doing new page patrolling for a while now. Recently on a hunch, I started digging around new pages and I have noticed a pattern. A lot of questionable pages are created by the new handles, if I check their contributions, they are limited to just one page they created. Some of the pages were created in March, April and those users have been silent since then. When I PROD a page, after being silent for 2-3 months, they just surface to delete the PROD without giving a reason or improving the article. These users are clever enough to not keep names related to the article in order to avoid potential WP:COI or WP:SPA, but their behaviour clearly makes it evident. I have no option but to go AfD route and in my experience, due to lack of participation, a lot of AfD close in no consensus. I am not sure how to deal with this. I have not linked pages or users because I do not have clear evidence that these are indeed paid editors. Coderzombie (talk) 12:48, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

@Coderzombie: Can you giive one or two examples of these pages? It sounds like paid editing to me; they (the ones that know what they're doing, anyway) tend to load a new page 'ready made' into user / article space as their only edit under a disposable account name, and then disappear. Staying below the r radar, see. — O Fortuna ^{semper crescis, aut decrescis} 13:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Some examples I have noticed recently. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Coderzombie (talk) 13:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Well, 1, 2, and 4 are probably just fans- they're not written well enough to be paid for. But #3- compare the history to what I said above- an account created a new article about a Pharma in one big, clean edit. Paid editor. Although, ironcally, what you were saying in your OP doesn't seem to apply- the PROD is still there! But the others, meh. They want their favourite songstress to have an article- their 'work here is now done'- it gets PROD'd- they get an email telling them so, they come back, you go to AfD instead. The songstress loses articlespace. — O Fortuna ^{semper crescis, aut decrescis} 13:38, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Could we add a log-onlytag edit filter for PROD template removal by new users anyone? —Guanaco 13:33, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

We have tags for CSD removal and AfD removal, so I don't see why not one for PROD removal. Ask at WT:EFM or on the mailing list. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 15:28, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

The problem with it is that removing CSD and AfD tags are not legitimate ways, in those cases, to object to deletion, whereas removing a PROD template is a legitimate way to object to deletion. An edit filter that shows the removal of PROD templates by non-autoconfirmed users who have at least one warning on their talk page might be useful, though. RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 16:45, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

My thought on this is that if one person objects to the deletion, consensus on AFD might still be to delete. Whether the removal is in good faith or not, the tag would identify these so we can decide whether to list them at AFD. —Guanaco 16:54, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• This is an old pattern. Typically paid editor/socks. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:37, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

The solution we won't gain consensus on (it's probably perennially proposed/rejected)is to allow only auto-confirmed editors to deProD. The policy of allowing anyone to do so is based on AGF and assuming members of the community that understand/share our goals are the only ones doing the detagging. This (obviously) allows SPA's and PAID's to game the system.Dlohcierekim (talk) 12:31, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Yup. One reason I wrote WP:IP addresses are not people. Some want to extend the phrase "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit" to doing things that IPs do not need to be doing since there is no accountability, and pulling CSD and PROD tags means it has to go to AFD, an inconvenience for an article that should be deleted. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:31, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I thought there was already a filter for deCSDs. dePRODs do not justify a filter in my opinion as PRODs can be removed by anyone. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:25, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I support keeping track of PROD's somehow, in a way that's completely transparent to the remover (after all, anyone is allowed to do it). Either an edit filter, or a bot similar to User:FastilyBot/Recently Untagged Dated Deletion Files. – Train2104 (t • c) 12:43, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

WP:BADAFD

We've got about 90 articles that need to be deleted (or otherwise dealt with) after a massive AfD; some have been tagged for G6 and they've been slowly whittled down from about 120 over the last week, but could an admin or three please deal with this so that the list isn't overwhelmingly big? Thanks, ansh666 19:24, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

I did about 40 of them...now I see 200x's allover...Lectonar (talk) 20:14, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Twinkle's dbatch is a marvellous thing... Primefac (talk) 20:20, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! ansh666 23:10, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Machine translations

What are the guidelines or rules regarding obvious but undisclosed machine translations (or obvious but undisclosed translations in general, come to think) from foreign-language Wikipedias? There's this initial version of a page which is obviously a this page run through Google Translate (go ahead and compare). The editor who did this is relatively new but has already had stuff deleted as copyright violations. --Calton | Talk 19:53, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

The obvious thing would be to list them at WP:PNT....and a little discussion concerning machine translations in general can be found here: Wikipedia talk:Translation#Machine-translations and Wikipedia talk:Translation#RFC. Unfortunately, there is no consensus to delete them outright as for now. Although I will use this occasion to leave this little titbit of information: stumbled upon this on It-Wikipedia....a speedy deletion tag which kind of expands our A2 here: "(C3) Pagina scritta in un'altra lingua o tradotta con traduttori automatici" which is "....page written in another language or translated by machine translation...". You think we should try to expand ours too, or is this actually perennial? Lectonar (talk) 19:59, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) "Wikipedia consensus is that an unedited machine translation, left as a Wikipedia article, is worse than nothing". Prod them on sight unless you feel they're salvageable. ‑ Iridescent 20:01, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Wouldn't there also be a copyright issue since they didn't properly attribute the source? Yes, easy to fix, but that is still a problem. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

  There is in fact a copyright issue. Lots of people think that "free use" means "unconditional use". Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:26, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – June 2017

News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2017).

Administrator changes

Doug Bell • Dennis Brown • Clpo13 • ONUnicorn

ThaddeusB • Yandman • Bjarki S • OldakQuill • Shyam • Jondel • Worm That Turned

Guideline and policy news

• An RfC proposing an off-wiki LTA database has been closed. The proposal was broadly supported, with further discussion required regarding what to do with the existing LTA database and defining access requirements. Such a tool/database formed part of the Community health initiative's successful grant proposal.
• Some clarifications have been made to the community banning and unblocking policies that effectively sync them with current practice. Specifically, the community has reached a consensus that when blocking a user at WP:AN or WP:ANI, it is considered a "community sanction", and administrators cannot unblock unilaterally if the user has not successfully appealed the sanction to the community.
• An RfC regarding the bot policy has closed with changes to the section describing restrictions on cosmetic changes.

Technical news

• Users will soon be able to blacklist specific users from sending them notifications.

Miscellaneous

• Following the 2017 elections, the new members of the Board of Trustees include Raystorm, Pundit and Doc James. They will serve three-year terms.

---

• Discuss this newsletter
• Subscribe
• Archive

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:40, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

WP:BLP

Having taken a quick review of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons and I see nothing that indicates it does not apply to WP:ANI and this page. I just removed three BLP comments, two of which sat for 24 hours, and the editors concerned notified. However, you feel about the man Wikipedia is not the place to be making derogatory remarks. People need to pay more attention to what is written and remove glaring violations. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 22:43, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree, but some admins prefer to help their wikifriends have a laugh at the expense of easy targets instead of upholding our policies no matter who the target of the violations is. Fram (talk) 07:35, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm one of those that had his comment removed. I'm not so sure it qualifies, as it was a direct quote from Stephen Colbert, but I won't revert you either. Yes I know what that sounds like, but remember, we have quotes from other notable people about notable people in other articles, some are less likeable than others, but does that give us cause to remove them?

I would actually say no. However, I won't revert you, it not worth any extra drama  Ҝ Ø Ƽ Ħ  12:21, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

KoshVorlon If you had made it clear that it was a quote then I wouldn't have removed it. Negative remarks like that require solid sources. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 12:28, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

CambridgeBayWeather Stephen Colbert made the news with that comment. It was reported , pretty much everywhere in the US, so I expected that phrase would be well known, but yes, I should have made that a bit clearer - my bad ! PS: I loved your old tag "have a gorilla" any chance of you bringing that back ?  Ҝ Ø Ƽ Ħ  12:40, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

But that is the problem. I know of Colbert but I've never watched him nor do I pay a lot of attention to foreign news (I live in Canada). I had at least one complaint about the "have a gorilla" tag as misleading. And given that it wasn't sourced to The Goon Show I probably should not have used it either. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 12:58, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Page moves

• Charles lindberg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Howdy. Would an administrator please restore the article Ministry of Sir Robert Borden to 10th Canadian Ministry? The article was moved (originally to 2nd Ministry of Sir Robert Borden), without discussion. GoodDay (talk) 22:53, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Fixed and I dropped a note, in a rather ironic discussion. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:20, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• Holy hell, he has done a TON of these. EdJohnston please take a look at his user page, where I linked the SPI on him. I'm about to be busy, but we need an admin to revert a bunch of moves. I blocked him for WP:DE with the moves and concern over this] but I need a clean up on isle 4 via his contribs and the moves. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:29, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
• Any admin is free to unblock or whatever, btw, as I'm about to be away for a bit. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:31, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

User:Charles lindberg has been a problem for some time now. As seen by their talk page competence concerns have been raised multiple times. Their involved in slow edit wars all over......not a new editor. --Moxy (talk) 00:25, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

To add on to this, they've uploaded a bunch of copyvio images screenshotted from Youtube videos using clearly incorrect CC tags, which have all been deleted at Commons. [15] ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 00:45, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Leaving aside the SPI concerns, I agree that an indefinite duration block is justified here on the grounds of disruptive editing (barging into contentious infoboxes and making major changes, etc) and general competence. Nick-D (talk) 02:08, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

It appears that he might be dabbling in editing signed out, as well. GoodDay (talk) 01:05, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I think this is |Light2Shadow......the War of 1812 infobox edits gives it away.--Moxy (talk) 01:19, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

For other background, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/96.54.184.11 and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive340#User:Charles lindberg reported by User:Simplexity22 (Result: 72 hours). Based on the huge number of non-consensual page moves from the last few days I support Dennis's indefinite block. I don't know if this is the same person as was operating the Alberta IPs in the SPI case, but there is overlap in behavior.The IP was systematically changing the numbering of Canadian prime ministers, and Charles lindberg was altering the numbering of federal cabinets. EdJohnston (talk) 01:56, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• The more I look, the more confident I am in the block but the circumstances are unusual enough I did want it reviewed here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 09:50, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
• Good block. Bishonen | talk 21:55, 3 June 2017 (UTC).

Invitation to test and discuss the Echo notifications blacklist

Hello,

To answer a request from the 2016 Community Wishlist for more user control of notifications, the Anti-harassment tools team is exploring changes that allow for adding a per-user blacklist to Echo notifications. This feature allows for more fine tuned control over notifications and could curb harassing notifications. We invite you to test the new feature on beta and then discuss it with us. For the Anti-harassment tools team SPoore (WMF) (talk) , Community Advocate, Community health initiative (talk) 16:26, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

London security incident ongoing

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Where is the article for this? I can't see anything in "In The News".

People need info about this ongoing incident, which is headline news around the world.

I assume there is already a page, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.193.222 (talk) 23:26, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Edit, June 2017 London attacks.

Please, get this on ITN as quickly as possible; I know this isn't the correct procedure, but it's an exceptional circumstance.

Lots of people need information, and are looking to Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.193.222 (talk) 23:28, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Permission request for certain types of edit.

Resolved

 – This isn't an AN issue. Primefac (talk) 13:09, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Over on quarry there is a report :https://quarry.wmflabs.org/query/19295 which lists redirects which eclipse commons.

As updating these to use the relevant Commons file directly might be thought controversial, I'd like the opinion of the admins first. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

ShakespeareFan00, maybe I'm missing something, but those look like redirects on both Commons and Wikipedia. So what's the issue? Primefac (talk) 12:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

If there are redirects on both sites, there is no issues, it's determining which are in fact "local" redirects and thus are "eclipsing" otherwise useful files at Commons. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:52, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Well, you need to update your search params, because out of 100 pages I found exactly 1 redirect on-wiki that was an actual image on Commons. Primefac (talk) 13:04, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm marking this as "resolved" (not quite hatting) because this isn't really an admin issue. If there's a redirect on Wikipedia that shouldn't be there, then it should be nominated for deletion. Primefac (talk) 13:09, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding discretionary sanctions

Resolved by motion at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment:

In the interest of clarity, the discretionary sanctions procedures described at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions are modified as follows:

• In the section Appeals by sanctioned editors: Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages...
• In the section Modifications by administrators: No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without...

For the Arbitration Committee, Miniapolis 14:00, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding discretionary sanctions

Block review

Third Second time this week for me to ask for review. This is a block of an alternative account that I did, Franzboas, who was using this alternative account for WP:Advocacy and likely breaking the policy on good hand, bad hand accounts. His input at Talk:Zionist Occupation Government conspiracy theory, Talk:Jewish Bolshevism and User talk:Newyorkbrad were not the only factors, but they do frame the situation well. This block wouldn't extend to his primary account, just to the alternate account, which I do not have dots connected on anyway. It isn't often I block an alt account only, so wanted a review by my peers. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:04, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Unusual indeed, and a novel situation. I'm not sure but I believe the subject are is also under discretionary sanctions, in which case I believe a block would apply to the account owner and hence to all their accounts. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed, is under discretionary sanctions,[16] and Franzboas was alerted to that fact on 17 May.[17] However, Dennis hasn't framed this block as a discretionary sanctions remedy. I don't think discretionary sanctions blocks are supposed to be indefinite, so an ordinary oldfashioned indef as placed by Dennis may be preferable. The option of blocking the main account as well is something that can be discussed here. (The main account isn't known, but a CU can presumably find it if they want.) Bishonen | talk 14:57, 4 June 2017 (UTC).

Oh, and I support this block, did I forget to mention that? Bishonen | talk 15:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC).

You are correct, that often it is better to push the boundaries of admin discretion and put it to community review than to deal with the limitations of Arb restrictions. My actions may not extend to the parent account, but that doesn't stop anyone else from acting on that account, ie: a CU, who might have a better view. My goal was only to stop the immediate disruption as it wasn't likely he would make the same edits with his main account. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:21, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict):::A CU could run a check and issue a Check user block without necessarily disclosing the main account. I contend that PoV/Advocacy is related to the owner of an account, in which case such an attitude exists in the person, not just in one of the accounts they use.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC).

• Good block. Saves ArbCom some trouble. There seems to be no inappropriate overlap right now so let's put that to rest for the time being. Drmies (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• Support block. See User talk:Rockypedia#Jews in cultural anthropology and ethnography, where the editor falsely asserted that I "supported" her or his antisemitic vandalism. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 15:54, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• Good block. This was a classic example of tendentious editing at its worst. GAB^gab 16:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• I thought about proposing an indef topic ban for Judaism for the unknown parent account (either as Community or WP:AE), but this would drag us pretty deep in the weeds as far as enforcement is concerned. They should understand that they may not create a new account and do the same thing. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:15, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• Good block. Thanks for taking it upon yourself to do what needs to be done. El_C 16:49, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• Obviously a good block. Neutrality^talk 17:09, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• Good block - this user got my radar over on Race and intelligence, a page known for sockpuppeting by Mikemikev. Given that Mikemikev likes to rail against Boasian anthropology, I thought this account was a sock of theirs but apparently​ there's a legit main account. Anyway, the block is needed given the comments on Newyorkbrad's page. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:35, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• Good block - I knew it would come to this after the arbitration request. My only question is why this wouldn't extend to the primary account, since it is the person who made the edits, not the account. {Which I've just seen is a point that Kudpung makde above. Obviously, I agree with that.) It concerns me that the editor involved is still free to edit with their main account, and even to make another so-called "legitimate sock" to continue their advocacy. In my experience, it's rare that people with hardline POVs such as shown by Franzboas are able to edit in other areas without being influenced by those strongly-held opinions. Of course, we don't know if that's the case, because we can't check their editing because we don't know who they are a sock of. This penalizes the community, and potentially the encyclopedia, in order to provide putative "protection" for an editor who has now been blocked for illegitimate editing destructive to the neutrality of the encyclopedia. That doesn't seem right to me. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:14, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• Commment No need for a CU as the main account is known. I won't comment on the issues as who knows, it might come to the committee. Doug Weller talk 18:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• Fair enough. Perhaps someone who does know can spot check their contributions? Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:31, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• Beyond My Ken, I presume checking the contributions of the two accounts was what Drmies, who is a CU, was indicating above that he'd done: "There seems to be no inappropriate overlap right now".[18] Bishonen | talk 18:54, 4 June 2017 (UTC).

• Thank you, Bishonen, I missed that part of Drmies comment. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:59, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• Beyond My Ken, it was one of those situations that I decided to deal with this as a non-Arb sanction because that actually freed me up to do an indef block instead of limited blocks and because the behavior (while perhaps violating Arb restrictions) was already covered under standard policy, so I wasn't forced to act under Arb authority. To do this, I felt I needed to limit it to the account that was being misused. Since I don't know the master account, that was the strongest sanction, and method, I had at my disposal. Obviously, I knew that Arb or CUs would review and take other actions if they deemed it necessary, but that is beyond my control. My actions were limited to stopping the disruption. In short, there is a dash of WP:IAR thrown in but given this is an unusual circumstance, it is warranted. And that is why I put it up for review myself. The net of my actions is to remove their ability to use a second account to do this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• Thank you, Dennis. My apology if it appeared that my comment was a criticism of your action, as that was not my intention. I fully understand what your options were, and I think you acted in the best interests of the encyclopedia with the tools that were available to you.
  I have just posted a suggested addition to WP:LEGITSOCK which would void the privacy provision of that policy if the sock is shown to have violated basic policies and been blocked for it. I don't know if it will fly or not, but this instance is certainly a good illustration of the need for such a change. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:57, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• No offense taken, I know you better than that. I agree that was a limiting factor, since I couldn't compel them to expose their primary account and I thought taking it to Arb was just overkill. If he starts a new account and does the same, he's been warned that it would be truly socking since this alt was blocked, which would mean his real account WOULD be exposed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:23, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• If the "other" account is a POV pusher, they'll run into problems on their own merit. I saw no need for further investigation by others, though of course it's possible that if someone digs deeper they find trouble. It is also no secret that I have plenty of problems with Franzboas's editing, but, I repeat, I did not see such problems in the other account and thus saw no need for anything else--and that's all that needs to be said about it. Let the other account do whatever it was doing; as far as I could tell it was contributing positively. I know it's an odd situation, and it's the first time I see something like this, but hey, the world is a big place. Dennis, thanks again; I am so happy to see you back. Drmies (talk) 22:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

He says he isn't going to fight this now, but adds: "@Dennis Brown: I think this is an abomination, but I'm not going to fight it. Not for now, at least. The depth of the bias here genuinely confuses me. Are you aware that one of the people opposing my edits, an administrator, identifies themselves as a "third-gendered sex worker" on their user page and recently defended using euphemisms like "revolutionary action" for ambushing and assaulting unarmed peaceful conservative speakers? (To ice the cake, that admin can and did look at my log information to identify my main account.) Did you know that much of the Frankfurt School conspiracy theory article was written by a user who identifies as an "androgynous British Marxist"? (Amusingly, this image gets passed around on right-wing social media.) Why are these people judged by their individual edits while I am harassed and deemed entirely malicious and unwelcome? Why is an androgynous British Marxist allowed to edit a contentious article about LGBTQ-friendly British Marxists? Are these people not fringe? Or are they just on a fringe that better fits most Wikipedians' tastes? Franzboas (talk) 9:08 pm, Today (UTC+1)" Doug Weller talk 20:39, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• I replied there, as I should since I did the block. It is my opinion that now that the review has taken place at WP:AN, any appeal should be conducted by Arb (or any subset) itself. This is the only way to guarantee his privacy in an unusual case like this. I'm happy to live with whatever conclusions they draw. I would in fact, encourage Arb to review this case before it is requested, and act if they feel it serves the interest of Wikipedia. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:42, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, the quote Doug Weller have is too far. Attacking people's identities, suggesting they should not edit Wikipedia because of it... That's some bullshit. This editor should be blocked, not just the alt account. The issue is with their behavior and comments now, not the purpose of the alt account. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:21, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

The issue has always been with 'their behaviour and comments' EvergreenFir. The ZOG filth was my straw, so I have been watching since. A comprehensive block is overdue. Irondome (talk) 23:44, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• I have removed his talk page access for reasons that are obvious. I again would encourage Arb to review this case and consider blocking the parent account. This is not something we can do at WP:AN or as an individual admin as we don't have access to the data needed to do this, so this should fall squarely in the realm of what Arb is here for. Drmies, Newyorkbrad, GorillaWarfare, Doug Weller or another Arb, perhaps you can do this without a formal filing in public, which would defeat the whole purpose of privacy in that account? Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:29, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
  • User:Dennis Brown, Doug knows the other account, and I'll be happy to confirm this to the other arbs (I might change to "active" soon), or they can run their own check. I repeat that I didn't see problems, certainly not these kinds of strange, strange problems, with the other account. Drmies (talk) 22:13, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
    • Drmies, my block was never meant to prevent blocking the master, and given what he has said since, I think Arb should consider it. We are still policy bound to protect his privacy, so Arb is the only mechanism available to do review and take action, if they deem it necessary. Personally, I think we have crossed the threshold where the parent account needs to be blocked, but the community lacks the tools to effectively do this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:20, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• Because they were made for purposes of WP:ADVOCACY, I have rolled back a number of Franzboas' edits. Any uninvolved editor with no bone to pick who believes that an edit I rolled back improved the article it appeared in is welcome to restore it without protest from me. I would suggest, though, that admins might want to look closely at the motivations of any editor who restores all (or very many) of the edits I reverted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:40, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• Endorse block and thanks to Dennis Brown for decisive action. I saw some of the advocacy and it was corrosive. Johnuniq (talk) 23:32, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• The main account should be blocked as well. Not sure why it hasn't been. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:58, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Main problem is that we can't link the master and this "legit" sock publicly. This is why I'm trying to get Arb to look at it. Even blocked editors get the same right of anonymity. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:02, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
    • @Dennis Brown: It's not a "legit" sock per WP:SCRUTINY. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:06, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
      • He declared it for a editing in a sensitive area, something we allow. Had he made good edits, there would be no issue with the second account. I didn't block him for creating the account, just for what he did and what the account became. He's been warned if he creates another account to bypass this block, they will all be linked. And yes, I agree blocking the master is a good idea, but my opinion is that Arb should do the dirty work here, given the totality of the circumstances and his expectation of privacy with the account. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:12, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
        • I agree that if he had made good edits then there would be no issue. But he didn't, so the legitimate part goes away. We're not going to have editors creating attack accounts and claiming an expectation of privacy and having the main account remain in good standing, their reputation untouched. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:22, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
          • • When I blocked him, and now, I just felt that was a decision best not made by a single person. Particularly since Drmies check the "real" users other contribs and they weren't problematic. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:49, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
              • I understand Dennis's actions and reason for not blocking the main account. And I agree that the arbs would be the best folks to deal with this. But NeilN is correct: abusing a legit alt account voids the protections that come with it. The issue is the user, not the account, and so the user must be dealt with. Trying to game an alt account to shield yourself from repercussions of what the user clearly knows is unacceptable behavior is not okay. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:19, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Whomsoever the ultimate jurisdiction should fall to, I am increasingly inclined to expect a siteban. There is no place for (fairly open) antisemitic fascists on WP, who are now openly attacking other vulnerable minority groups. No place. Zero tolerance. Irondome (talk) 00:28, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

• Question: It seems to me that the block of Franzboas is well supported by policy (based on the account's actions) and the increasingly robust consensus of uninvolved editors here. However, I am wondering if the two apparent views of the main account – privacy prevents action so long as that account edits unproblematically and it is the editor who took the actions so the main account should also be blocked – are truly the only available options. Could not an AN consensus impose a topic ban on the main account, to be informed to the editor off-wiki? Presumably the accounts are notified to ArbCom, so the ban could also be noted on the Arb wiki. Notification by an arbitrator who knows the identity of the main account could be accompanied by a strict warning that (for example) the topic ban will be noted on the main account on wiki and an AN thread to consider a block / ban started if problematic edits are found (in other words, privacy can't be used to protect an editor from prior advocacy problems on an alternative account being considered if the same problems appear on the main account). Or, that a violation will see the main account blocked for violations of the sock policy? Or, whatever other policy-compliant conditions that an AN consensus might support? I recognise that monitoring the account is an extra burden for arbitrators / functionaries who know the identity of the main account, but practically, any editor causing serious problems within the topic will ultimately be called out at a noticeboard at which point someone in the know will see it and a quick check would allow the imposed conditions to be triggered. To me, this approach would formally register to the editor the community's disapproval of their actions and keep whoever is behind the Franzboas account away from the topic. It would also reaffirm to everyone that the community does not approve of using alternative accounts for advocacy (ie. this is not a legitimate SOCK under the policy) and that advocacy and POV editing reflect the views of the editor. Is something along these lines possible / viable / desirable? EdChem (talk) 00:48, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
  • I thought of that and even typed it out and reviews a few times, but in the end, felt Arb was best to deal with this, and they can do it in private, then decide (based on what policy and community expectations are) what to do. I don't want the bad deeds of one person push us to violate our own rules on privacy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:52, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
    • (e/c) Just on Neil's T/P. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Daniel_Craig&diff=prev&oldid=783834101. Who the hell is this? Irondome (talk)
  • A topic ban probably wouldn't do anything as this alt-account was specifically created to edit on this topic, shielding the main account. Also, we are talking about behavioral problems here, not only advocacy. It is well understood that behavioral problems in the past usually result in a (sometimes much) shorter leash in the future, even in unrelated areas. A private topic ban does not address this, unless the Arbs are willing to monitor future behavior in all areas. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:00, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
• As I mentioned above, I posted a comment on WP:Sockpuppetry suggesting a change to the privacy provision in which a violation of policies by the "legitimate sock" would void the privacy. (The thread can be found here.) An editor expressed the opinion that "This is all already covered, albeit less specifically than in your proposal." So at least one editor believes that violating Wikipedia policies voids the privacy provision. I'm not sure what, exactly, the editor feels covers this (I've asked them to comment here) but it's worth looking into. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:05, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
• Although there was no privacy issue, Til Eulenspiegel's alternative and harmless account was also blocked[19] , by User:The Bushranger. Doug Weller talk 05:55, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
• Restrictions are against the editor, not the account. The current situation is that the editor is unrestricted from editing in the same area, as their main account has not been restricted in any way. If there is a genuine privacy need to keep the accounts separate, then someone with CU access needs to email the main account and let them know formally any restrictions to the Alt-account also apply to their main. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:13, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
• Personally, I would be looking at blocking the main account as well. It is utterly ludicrous that the misuse of a sock implies some sort of privacy. Failing that, what I would certainly be doing is informing the two editors attacked by Franzboas on his talkpage of his description and attack on them, and if I was them I would have every expectation of being told the master account name as well, given that they appear to also be engaging in off-wiki harrassment ("Did you know that much of the Frankfurt School conspiracy theory article was written by a user who identifies as an "androgynous British Marxist"? Amusingly, this image gets passed around on right-wing social media.") The editor lost any claims they might have to privacy when they posted that - regardless of the fact that the sock was not SOCK#LEGIT compliant anyway, as it was only revealed when another editor forced them into it. I have no idea why we're tiptoeing round this elephant in the room. Black Kite (talk) 18:20, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
• @Black Kite: I agree with you. I have in fact contacted RGloucester about that photoshopped image. Of course it's a lie that he wrote much of it, see his edits here. Doug Weller talk 19:44, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Doug Weller I've pinged some Arbs but no reply. Do I need to file a formal case here, or will Arb simply look into this privately? As the blocking admin, who is limited on what he can do, I can't help but think this is a reasonable request, for an answer. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:46, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
    • ArbCom are discussing this. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:48, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
      • Yes, although I have no objection to this being handled by the community. Doug Weller talk 20:09, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
        • Hiding behind an alternate account for veiled antisemitism - coupled with the personal attacks - really does render privacy a moot point. Sanctions on the master are the only real path from this point. GAB^gab 20:36, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
        • It's rather hard for the community to handle it, since we don't know who the master is. I take Drmies' word that the editing of the master doesn't show signs of the advocacy of Franzboas, but I think the issue has now gone beyond that to: do we want the editor who spews personal attacks and antisemitic editing under a mask to be allowed to edit here at all? We could, in essence, try the master in absentia, and call for a block, which could then be implemented by an Arb without public announcement, but that rather flies in the face of the culture of transparency that WP generally runs under. In any case, I would think that many people would be uneasy about passing judgment on another editor based on less then the totality of their contributions, which would, again, make it difficult for the community to reach a decision and "handle it". Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:32, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
          • • Bingo. Thus my harping about Arb reviewing it. They review stuff in private all the time, I would trust them in this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:47, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
      • Thank you Newyorkbrad. I had a feeling, but no one told me as blocking admin. This is one of those times that really does require Arb. If you decide to link them publicly, not to, block, don't, whatever, that is fine but only you guys can really review it properly. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:33, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

July 15 new page push

Hello! I discussed a proposal involving a push to eliminate the backlog of unpatrolled new pages, and it seems that those on IRC are ok with it. So, I am posting it here. There should be a push on July 15 for people to spend as much time as possibly cleaning up and reviewing (if they have the permissions and knowledge to do so) new pages. Hopefully we can get the backlog down significantly. RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 16:52, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Requested move of Template:2016 US Election AE

Hey y'all! I've started a requested move to rename Template:2016 US Election AE. Just thought I should leave a notice here since it's a discretionary sanctions page restriction template. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 23:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Adminship granted without passing RfA

DFTT. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 18:39, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Resolved  – Attention given. Even if he had been misusing the tools, which he clearly hasn't, there is nothing that we could do about it at this noticeboard. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 12:42, 5 June 2017 (UTC) This is to bring to everyone's attention that User:BradPatrick was granted admin privileges without passing any Wikipedia:Requests for adminship and without the English Wikipedia's community approval. Brad Patrick was granted admin bit in April 2006 because he was the interim Executive Director of the Wikimedia Foundation. He resigned on March 22, 2007 and it was effective from March 31, 2007 but the admin bit was not removed. Even executive directors like Sue Gardner, Lila Tretikov and Katherine Maher were not granted admin bit just because they held the post of an executive director, then why is Brad Patrick allowed to hold and retain the admin rights. This is totally unfair to those people who go through a very tough community process in getting elected. No one can imagine that userights like Bureaucrat, CheckUser, Oversight and Steward are granted without approval from the Wikipedia community and the Arbitration Committee. I would request the community to open a Request for Comment on this matter and either make Brad Patrick to resign the admin bit or it be removed from his account if he does not resign on his own. If Brad Patrick wants the admin privileges, he must go through an RfA and pass it. No one can be allowed to have admin privileges without passing an RfA. Username person (talk) 11:18, 5 June 2017 (UTC) @Username person: Brad probably just forgot. Have you tried asking him directly before coming here? Regards SoWhy 11:36, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Many people already did that before User_talk:BradPatrick#Your_admin_bit. Username person (talk) 11:41, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Re "I would request the community to open a Request for Comment on this matter" - You *are* the community, so go do it yourself. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:44, 5 June 2017 (UTC) @Username person: Is this your first account? Marvellous Spider-Man 11:47, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Yes it is. How is it related to the question? Username person (talk) 11:53, 5 June 2017 (UTC) That may have been the wrong question as it's certainly not a new user. Only account? It looks a little unusual, that's all. -- zzuuzz (talk) 11:57, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Is there any evidence of misuse of admin tools, or conduct which would be considered inappropriate for an admin? Has his general conduct as a Wikipedian been reasonable? If there's no evidence of problems, I don't believe solutions are needed to something which has existed for over 10 years. Murph9000 (talk) 11:51, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Is it necessary for abuse to occur and then only admin privileges can be removed? Why should anyone be granted admin rights without community's approval on RfA? Username person (talk) 11:55, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Also just because something has existed for 10 years doesn't mean it is correct, it is wrong. Username person (talk) 11:56, 5 June 2017 (UTC) (edit conflict) There were 'discussions' here and here. Less input anywhere on the matter from the editor himself, it must be said! — O Fortuna semper crescis, aut decrescis 11:59, 5 June 2017 (UTC) If Username person wants to start an RFC to try to get the admin bit removed they should do it. Otherwise there is nothing to do here. ~ GB fan 12:09, 5 June 2017 (UTC) As far as I can see, BradPatrick is a benevolent editor who has done nothing to bring into question his administrator status. Let's not forget, this granting was 11 years ago, when the project was in reletive infancy, and I'm damned sure that if he were to have misused the tools, he'd have done so by now. As we all know, the RfA process is a flawed and completely corrupt time sink which is infested by sycophantic admin-wannabes who flock to the stage, without doing very little or no research, to support the nominee by leaving a kiss-arse comment in the hope that they can call on them in the future to have little favours be bestowed upon them. Time and time again we see the wrong people being given the tools as a result of this misguided premise. What makes you, Username person, think that it would be in any way beneficial to the project to make this long established administrator of otherwise good standing, have to sit through the humiliation of bowing to the crowds and justifying themselves to a load of strangers? CassiantoTalk 12:24, 5 June 2017 (UTC) @Cassianto: I rather fancy a 'tumbril rolling towards the guillotine' analogy  ;) — O Fortuna semper crescis, aut decrescis 12:49, 5 June 2017 (UTC) It was granted in 2006 so 10-11 years later it's hardly worth caring over now .... As noted above by all means start an RFC however that will probably be closed as "Support leaving the admin bit" so all in all it's probably best you forget this and concentrate on constructively editing the encyclopedia. –Davey2010Talk 12:41, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Rather it would be closed as "There is no community-based desysopping policy, so we literally can't do anything." ~ Rob13Talk 13:00, 5 June 2017 (UTC) You are right, this would need to be raised with ARBCOM or Brad would need to voluntarily resign. ~ GB fan 13:05, 5 June 2017 (UTC) By why should he have to? And why should those at ARBCOM even be bothered with something like this? This smacks of someone bitter trying ton mete out some kind of revenge. If I could be bothered, I'd investigate why they've brought it here in the first place. CassiantoTalk 13:13, 5 June 2017 (UTC) He could always volunteer to a confirmation RFA and he would very likely pass. I would support. I can understand why people would be uneasy with an unvetted Admin that isn't working for the Foundation. I question the person who filed all this, but that doesn't mean the concern is without merit. Technically, the Foundation *requires* that all persons with access to delete material be vetted through a process like RFA, so he is actually out of compliance for that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:14, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Oh look, an account that was created today. I wonder who the sock master is? CassiantoTalk 13:18, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Created in 2006 as noted above. Started editing today. --NeilN talk to me 13:23, 5 June 2017 (UTC) That'd be one helluva sleeper! — O Fortuna semper crescis, aut decrescis 13:39, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Brad has been an admin for 10 years without problems. I became an admin in 2006, when RfA was a lot easier to pass than it is now. Letting Brad (who is well known to the community and known to the Foundation in person) keep his bit doesn't seem like a much bigger problem that letting me (some pseudonymous dude who has only met a handful of Wikipedians in person) keep my bit. —Kusma (t·c) 13:30, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Looks like someone is not here to build an encyclopedia -- John Reaves 13:53, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Admin User:SlimVirgin puts discretionary sanctions on multiple editors and article they are involved with

I don't quite fucking know how to react to this, but this is textbook WP:INVOLVED. For context, the dispute involves SlimVirgin and a handful of others who steadfastly argue that the editorial board of philoSOPHIA must be included in the article, despite having no reliable sources discussing the role of the editorial board, which runs against our convention on academic journals. This has been explained to them many times on Talk:philoSOPHIA, by myself and other regulars from WP:JOURNALS, but they just don't get it. Having lost the consensus debate, they now slap both me, Randykitty, and the article with horseshit discretionary sanctions, saying this is somehow a gender-related dispute.

This is utter fucking horseshit, and appalling behaviour from an admin. Remove the DS template from the article, and desysop them please. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:38, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Headbomb has misunderstood the DS. Anyone can add an alert, and it's a requirement to do that if sanctions might be pursued at a later date. If you read the template, it explains. The dispute is indeed gender-related. I was in the process of writing this up for another noticeboard, so I'll continue doing that rather than responding in this thread. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:52, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

The dispute has nothing to do with gender, and no one in the discussion ever brought gender up. You're the only one that ever mentioned treating this article differently because it was a feminist journal. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:55, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Going to ping DGG (talk · contribs) and Randykitty (talk · contribs) here, since they too are admins involved in the dispute. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:57, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

• The magazine's tagline is "A Journal of Continental Feminism" and it's named after a goddess of feminity. The subject is gender-related. The dispute about the inclusion or exclusion of a list of the advisory board. The dipute is not gender-related. The DS applies to "any gender-related dispute or controversy", not any dispute involving a gender-related article. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 01:00, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

(ec) @Headbomb: You're reverting two women who are trying to write an article about a feminist journal, and you keep removing the names of the women who run it. It doesn't get more gender-related than that.

I don't want to keep discussing this here, except to say that the aggression—"I don't quite fucking know" and "utterly fucking horseshit"—is a huge part of the problem. I don't know you. You're an anonymous man on the internet who has been inexplicably aggressive for several days at an article in which you have no interest. It's actually frightening. I'm not exaggerating when I say that. It frightens me.

My options are to abandon the article so that I can stay out of your way, or try to use dispute resolution to resolve it. I've initiated the latter, even though what I really want to do at this point is retire. SarahSV ^(talk) 01:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)