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Disruptive behavior with ethnic overtones on Blue Army (Poland) Talk Page

I'd like to report User:Faustian for disruptive behavior on the Talk:Blue Army (Poland) page. Several editors are in the process of agreeing on a consensus based on the results of a nearly finalized RfC, which concluded that the there is a issue of undue weight and coat-racking within the article. Unfortunately, despite the outcome of the vote, Faustian has continued to argue that more information should be added, contrary to the RfC results, more importantly his behavior is taking on the characteristics of bullying when Faustian wrote: "So far every non-Pole thinks thinks that it reflects the source" and "Double-standards motivated by nationalism" and "You are presenting with a pattern of dishonesty" [1] . I would request that Faustian is blocked before this gets out of hand. Also, he continues to revert edits which have gained support — here: [2] [3] and [4]--E-960 (talk) 21:20, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with Darouet's assessment that your RFC is non-neutral and thus rather problematic. Additionally the most support is for the third of three options ("Other possible solutions") so it does not seem as though consensus is really very strong. I don't see that Faustian is doing anything to be blocked for. I would recommend you withdraw the RfC and rephrase it in an unbiased way, plus have only clear options for people to support rather than a vague "other." —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:00, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

—Мандичка, the RfC is a separate item (btw most folks clearly voted for option 3, no need to question the results), the problem I'm reporting on has nothing to do with the merits of the discussion. But, the tone struck by user Faustain, pls address my request. --E-960 (talk) 22:23, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm just telling you my unbiased impression. I don't think Faustian has done anything worth banning for and may have a point. You shouldn't be making those changes before the RfC is complete so Faustian is right to revert you. I don't agree with your assessment that it's a nearly finalized RfC. The tally vote math has "Option 1: 1.5 votes/Option 2: 2 votes/Option 3: 3.5 votes to reduce the text / 1 vote to expand the text" IMO this is not very clear at all and not much of a majority. Additionally, the RfC as you formed it clearly violates policy as it is very leading and biased, and thus an admin may choose to close it with no consensus by default. So I recommend starting over with a neutral question. —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:38, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

E-960 is operating as essentially a SPA devoted to removing negative information about the Blue Army. This is part of his disruptive process. The talk-page is filled with his mostly one-editor struggle to do this. He has already been caught deliberately misrepresenting what a source says. On another RFC he claimed [5]: " Also, as noted by Encyclopedia Judaica such actions were the result of "individual soldiers",[2] so the article text should not overemphasize controversial subject matter to tacitly imply that the entire army was a pogroming force." The actual source stated [6]: "Attacks on individual Jews on the streets and highways, murderous pogroms on Jewish settlements, and deliberate provocative acts became commonplace. While these may have been on the initiative of individual soldiers, they were known to their officers, if not openly supported by them." This sort of thing has been common with him. He is clearly not here to build an Encyclopedia but to remove information he doesn't like, and to disrupt the efforts of those who are here to build the encyclopedia. If anyone ought to be sanctioned, it should be him. Please do so.Faustian (talk) 22:43, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Please note the results of the RfC vote, I think most editors who commented have a genuine desire to improve the article, however the recent tone struck by Faustian is counter productive:

• Option 3: As suggested by users SMcCandlish and Ivanevian. I think that the proposed "third way" approach is fair and worth pursuing. --E-960 (talk) 07:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
• Option 2: Keep as is no changes. Faustian (talk) 15:03, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
• Option 3: Certainly keep lead and body material that describes pogroms, but add more information that also describes the causes of anti-Semitic and anti-Ukrainian violence, as we discussed in the Talk Pages above. -Darouet (talk) 18:47, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
• Option 2: Keep as is no changes. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 01:22, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
• Option 3: There is clearly a WP:UNDUE / WP:COATRACK problem here, but it is not as significant as the nom suggests. I do agree that this material can be compressed by about 50%, but a summary of it should not be removed from the lead. As noted below about Enc. Judaica, Haller's Army is notorious for this; i.e., it's one of the things that establishes WP:Notability. It's not WP's job to do a WP:SYNTH analysis of our own on how significant the alleged pogromming was in relation to the Blue Army's role in the war. Just follow the sources. That said, don't dwell and dwell on one aspect from cherry-picked sources.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:11, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
• Option 3: I wouldn't go as far as option 1, but the emphasis on anti-Jewish violence by the BA completely distorts this article, so a re-edit of some kind is definitely needed. Ivanevian (talk) 22:33, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
• Option 1/3 I second Ivanevian; the article currently has an undue focus on this issue. I'd suggest shortening the lead a bit (what are "numerous segments"?), and trying to be more concise in the body. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:37, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
• Option 1: Re-edit the sections as recommended. Reason: It is too one-sided, hence POV now. Zezen (talk) 00:55, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

--E-960 (talk) 22:52, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

He has now violated 3R. Reversions are here: [7], here: [8], here: [9] and here: [10]. He was warned here: [11].

Most of his reversions involved removing sourced information without consensus and despite a previous RFC having concluded that the information was acceptable in the article (RFC here: [12]).Faustian (talk) 23:20, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Faustian, the removal of this text was seconded by an experienced user Volunteer Marek, because the text originally cited to back it up was taken out of context and was missing key verses that completely changed the meaning of the statement. --E-960 (talk) 23:25, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

False. The full passage was included and RFC passed with the full passage. Anyone can follow the RFC here: [13], just scroll down. The missing verses actually made the RFC less likely to pass. When I included the full paragraph it was determined that the statement in the article did reflect the original source. Had I deliberately left out information to make my case better (as you falsely claim I did) people wouldn't have disagreed with me initially.

At any rate, this is off-topic, although it does highlight your negative approach to wikipedia.Faustian (talk) 23:31, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh, lord. Could we please have an admin involve themselves here? In all honesty, any editors who have had dealings with E-960 have been subjected to his blunderbuss techniques to the point of EXHAUSTion and should no longer be expected to assume good faith. He's an SPA who's NOTHERE being allowed to continue BATTLEGROUND tactics on all things ARBEE. Please see these archived ANIs: here, here, and here. He's a bully, pure and simple. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with this assessment, as I told Faustian, that the current discussion on the talk page, is attracting input from several experienced editors and we are receiving feedback on how to improve the disputed section, however Faustian wants to add material without gaining consensus and reverting text which was seconded by another user. I suggest any admin should look at the ongoing discussion before rushing to judgement. --E-960 (talk) 00:01, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

• On quick note, my last recommendation was to initiate a cool-off period until other editors can review the proposed edits. [14] I don't think that by making such statement I'm engaging in battleground tactics, just simply trying to get more editor to review possibly controversial text. --E-960 (talk) 00:18, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

• On a quick note, I don't accept this piece of WP:CRUSH as being 'respectful' in good faith. I'm afraid your reputation precedes you here. Paying lip-service to 'civil' when you believe it serves your purposes is a misrepresentation of the machinations of how and why you edit, and how you interact with other editors. Incidentally, starting this thread and posting this slanted 'request' on the AN is FORUMSHOPPING. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

• Addendum: Anyone who reads through the protracted dispute on the article's talk page will see for themselves that the context in which you 'initiated' a 'cool-off period' belies your claim not to be batteground... and anyone who knows the first thing about how RfCs work know they are not a !vote... so why do you keep counting !votes? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:44, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

The RfC has several editor comments and we are in the process of agreeing on how to fix the disputed actions, the votes are just a quick reference point. No need to ridicule my method, also because several editors have lend their feedback, I don't think that Faustian's approach is productive, when he tries to insert more information to the disputed section while the discussion is on how to reduce the size of the text to avoid Coat-racking with in the article. --E-960 (talk) 05:47, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

User:Faustian inappropriate comments questioning editor's ethnicity

Moved up from bottom of page as new report. BMK (talk) 22:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Again, for the the third time User:Faustian has questioned an editor's ethnicity on the Talk:Blue Army (Poland) page. This again happened after I submitted an ANI yesterday — 21:20, 22 November 2015 (UTC) — to check his behavior before it got out of hand. Unfortunately, my request was ignored. Since, then Faustian has made the same obnoxious remarks to Volunteer Marek.

• Double-standards motivated by nationalism? Faustian (talk) 18:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
• So far every non-Pole thinks thinks that it reflects the source. Faustian (talk) 18:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
• In the RFC and here every non-Pole felt that it reflected the source. Faustian (talk) 08:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Prompting this response:

• I have no idea how you know the ethnic background of everyone who's commented here. Second, you are ascribing views to people based on their ethnicity "Y believes X because Y is Z". This is at best a form of offensive stereotyping and at worst a form of bigotry. Third, you've been on Wikipedia long enough to be aware that the proper way to carry out discussion is by commenting on content, not editors. Volunteer Marek 22:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm very frustrated by the apparent selectivity of how admins discipline editors, I myself have been accused of being an instigator, yet no disparaging remarks were made on my part. All the while user Faustian has been blocking content which was agreed on with other edits and making rude comments. Yet, no disciplinary action has been taken against him. Is this going to continue? --E-960 (talk) 21:50, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

This is your second complaint here about Faustian on the Blue Army article and the other one is not even closed. The reason why you're accused of being an instigator is apparent. —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:13, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Can I ask that you address the statements made by Faustain, pls. Yes, it's the second request because I'm afraid you ignored the first. --E-960 (talk) 22:19, 24 November 2015 (UTC

He was just blocked for edit-warring: [15]; after coming off his block he is continuing his pattern of disruptions and harassment.

My statements that he is complaining about, in the talk section of an article about a Polish military unit that killed Jewish civilians: "In the RFC and here every non-Pole (once the full paragraph was included) felt that it reflected the source: [12]. Me, SMcCandlish ☺, Malik Shabazz, and here Darouet. truther2012 felt it wasn't but that was before I provded the full context, and he didn't respond after that. RFC was closed by Robert McClenon (talk who concluded "The statement does properly reflect the source." My statement that all the people who happened to not be Polish, felt that the statement reflected the source, was accurate. I suspect this may not be a pure coincidence. I have respect for you as an editor and I think you edit in good faith, but like all of us you might not be completely free of unintentional bias. A good thing about an RFC is that it can get neutral voices. In this case, the neutral voices didn't agree with you. I would be happy to do another RFC. My next and final comment on this topic was: " Volunteer Marek , I'm disappointed in your harsh tone; I had been quite civil with you. I did not ascribe views to people based on ethnicity but suggested the possibility of subtle bias, due to one's background, in you (as in anyone), whom I consider to be a good-faith editor. I pointed out that it would be good to have non-Eastern Europeans comment on these issues as they have no "dogs in this fight" and that on this specific issue concerning a Polish military unit non-Polish peoples' attitudes differ form Polish editors. Something to think about. that being said, I won't comment on this anymore and will stick to content."

This discussion was finished, but then E-960 (talk decided to use it to continue his pattern of harassment and disruptions.Faustian (talk) 23:06, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and this was simply false: "All the while user Faustian has been blocking content which was agreed on with other edits".Faustian (talk) 23:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I've already addressed Faustian's behavior and once again I don't feel Faustian has done anything wrong. IMO he is arguing for a neutral viewpoint here, not just the Polish POV, which I think is necessary for content such as this. —Мандичка^YO 😜 23:24, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Again, majority of users who commented recently on the Talk:Blue Army (Poland) page: User:Piotrus, User:Ivanevian, User:Zezen, User:Volunteer Marek, User:SMcCandlish and User:SageRad believe that Faustian is not arguing from a neutral POV, but unfortunately when an admin is selectively looking through the content you can justify just about any kind of behavior. --E-960 (talk) 05:30, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Yet another misrepresentation, but off-topic here so I won't get drawn into a discussion here.Faustian (talk) 13:51, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

E-960, please stop attributing sentiments to me. I do not endorse that attribution above. Please strike it. I haven't looked closely into the matter to make my own judgment. I was only called by Legobot to an RfC on the Blue Army (Poland) page, and my only contribution i believe was to help discern what the Morgenthau Report actually said. I did not weigh in as you suggest. SageRad (talk) 15:26, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban for E-960

It's been suggested here that E-960 is a SPA for Poland who is WP:NOTHERE. I've noticed seriously problematic, non-neutral and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior so far on the talk page for the Blue Army, and elsewhere E-960 does not appear interested in engaging in a civil manner[16], [17]. We have previous ANI complaints[18][19] and I propose this be dealt with via a topic ban for Eastern Europe, which is already under WP:ARBEE. —Мандичка^YO 😜 19:25, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proposer —Мандичка^YO 😜 19:25, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support. His efforts are a largely a trail of disruptions. Faustian (talk) 15:07, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
• Against. This is a WP:TAGTEAM initiative, by users who's share similar POV on issues related to Eastern Europe. I want to show user Faustian's misconduct which has continually been ignored by admin Мандичка who marginalizes Faustian's out of line comments and instead tries to shift attention to users who oppose him. Simply a hit job. Also, the false charge of "SAP for Poland"… pls see e-960's edits to Gothic architecture, Brick Gothic, Baroque architecture etc. The entire argument if based on loose facts. --E-960 (talk) 19:28, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
  • This is really preposterous to accuse me of being part of a tag team scheme aka meat puppetry. Additionally, your edits on architecture are largely related to Poland anyway![20], [21], [22], [23]], [24], [25] Looking through your edits, it doesn't appear you've ever made a single article edit not related to Poland either directly or indirectly (ie Allies of World War II). —Мандичка^YO 😜 00:49, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record, WP:TAGTEAM is very different from WP:MEATPUPPET. And Мандичка isn't an admin.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  11:02, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish:: See WP:TAGTEAM: "Tag teaming is a controversial form of meatpuppetry" —Мандичка^YO 😜 07:39, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

You are extremely bias in your accusations. Yes, my interest focuses on Poland and it's history. I'm not going to get involved in editing subject matter I know nothing about like Quantum mechanics or history of History of Canada. Unfortunately, in an effort to pin me down, you are distorting the definition of "single purpose" account to fit your needs. --E-960 (talk) 08:03, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Also, I'd like to add that — several editors including: User:SMcCandlish, User:Zezen, User:Ivanevian and User:SageRad commented and agree that the BA page has issues of WP:UNDUE and WP:COATRACK. So, my arguments and position is by no means unreasonable. --E-960 (talk) 09:10, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• I never said that. I just reviewed the article's talk page where i arrived due to a LegoBot call to an RfC, and my only comments were to establish a point of fact about the Morgenthau Report. Please strike my name from the above comment and don't attribute things to me that i didn't say. SageRad (talk) 14:42, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support Too much drama and disruption coupled with silly accusations. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 03:31, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support This has been a long-running problem Nick-D (talk) 05:58, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see anything even close meriting a topic ban. I also do think that E-960 brings up valid points on talk. There's a lot of discussion but that is precisely what is suppose to happen in these situations. Volunteer Marek  08:07, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose, and take this to ArbCom. The only evidence presented is two diffs of questionable civility (one is more like excessive stridency, and neither are from the talk page in question), followed by a suggestion for an excessive topic ban from all Eastern Europe articles, which isn't justifiable. I don't think E-960 is the only problematic editor at the article. The page has been subject to months of editorial controversy (I've participated, via WP:FRS, in several RfCs there, which were basically rehashing the same issues). I'm skeptical that singling out one editor for a topic ban will resolve the problems at that article, and may simply amount to supervoting in an ongoing, long-term content dispute. This mostly appears to be a conflict between those who view the subject's notability as primarily or at least deeply tied to antisemitism, versus those who see the anti-Jewish violence material as a PoV/OR coatrack, overplaying the relation of alleged pogroms to the subject's history. There's a second dispute axis, alleging anti- and pro-Poland PoV pushing that doesn't seem tied to the antisemitism-or-not arguments. Finally, some of us with no dog in the fight(s) thought some coatrack and/or NOR and/or PoV concerns were valid, and some of them were not, and thus supported compromise; the multiple RfCs have not reached one. It's not primarily a two-editor or even two-faction dispute, so I'm skeptical that WP:DRN or WP:MEDCOM would be useful. This can probably be done at WP:ARCA, as a request related to WP:ARBEE, or maybe the clerks would instruct the filing of a new WP:RFARB (I don't spend much time at ArbCom, so I'm not sure). That won't resolve the content dispute but it will deal with the (non-singular) behavioral problems that are preventing resolution of it.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  11:02, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

E-960's problems extend beyond mere content dispute. He is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia, but to (disruptively) advocate for the Blue Army. Opening these ANIs against me seems to be part of that struggle. He has also made numerous false accusations, such as of tag-teaming, as well as edit-warring, on this very ANI. He made a false claim of what another editor stated on this ANI, as described by that other editor here: [26]. In addition to frequent misrepresentation of other editors' actions and words, there is also a pattern of misrepresenting sources to suit his agenda. For example, here: [27], here: [28] and here: [29]. He advocated for "During the fighting on the Ukrainian front individual soldiers within the ranks of the Blue Army acting on their own initiative attacked segments of the local Jewish population" when the original source stated "Foreign officers and the ties with France kept Haller's forces independent of the official Polish command, a fact exploited by Haller's soldiers (called the "Hallerczycy") for undisciplined and unbridled excesses against Jewish communities in Galicia. Attacks on individual Jews on the streets and highways, murderous pogroms on Jewish settlements, and deliberate provocative acts became commonplace. While these may have been on the initiative of individual soldiers, they were known to their officers, if not openly supported by them." Fixing this took a lot of effort due to multiple reversions by E-960. E-960 has also tried to blame the anti-Jewish assaults on links between Jews and Bolshevism ([it took an RFC to clear this one up: [30]). Here I found a piece of information, reliably sourced, that could result in a brief 6 word addition to the article: [31]. As seen from the diff, he falsely claimed one of the sources was not reliable and will of course fight to keep the information off the article. So apparently an RFC will be necessary for every piece of info that is critical of the Blue Army...or to remove every piece of "information" that (as in the case of the alleged Jewish support for Bolshevism I linked to above) seeks to justify or exonerate the Blue Army's actions by misusing sources. It just goes on and on. I fear that WP:ARCA and WP:ARBEE will simply be more tools for him to use in his efforts to defend the Blue Army. He may have already worn down Darouet (talk, who had been quite active but who has recently disappeared from this article, with his efforts.Faustian (talk) 13:54, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Faustian, pls do not suggest that I insert bogus claims into the article — a source which you cited in the BA article has this statement: "In the borderlands many Ukrainians, Belorussians and Jews accorded an enthusiastic welcome to the invading Red Army." Nationalizing a Borderland: War, Ethnicity, and Anti-Jewish Violence in East Galicia, 1914-1920 p. 108. In any case, I don't think this is the place to argue about specific text.--E-960 (talk) 14:16, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

There are a number of editors who share aspects of E-960's concerns, including Volunteer Marek, Piotrus and SMcCandlish, who are vastly more competent and well able to guarantee that the article maintains appropriate balance while describing violence against minorities in eastern Poland. E-960 however has long stonewalled any kind of improvement of Blue Army (Poland) because of their commitment to exonerating the unit from actions for which they are notorious, and lack of interest in what either WP:RS or other editors really have to say on the issue. I wish I could say that they can be brought around, but I think that's a lost cause. Whatever we do, I don't think E-960 will ever be a productive editor at Blue Army (Poland). -Darouet (talk) 16:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Darouet (talk, I take this this is a support?Faustian (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm too involved to offer any meaningful support to this proposal, and I don't think that E-960 has nothing to contribute to Polish articles in general (it might be true but if so, I'm not aware). However, I do maintain they have nothing good to contribute to this article. -Darouet (talk) 20:44, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

"E-960 however has long stonewalled any kind of improvement of Blue Army (Poland)" - seeing as how the current version reflects almost entirely Faustian's views I don't think your statement is true at all. E-960 has engaged in detailed and perhaps drawn out discussion on talk but a lot of their suggestions or approaches to improving the article have been ignored or... stonewalled. If there's stonewallin' going on here I think it's on the other side of the argument. Volunteer Marek  17:58, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I've opened up neutrally worded RFCs and abided by them, and the current version reflects a compromise that you were involved in also, and not some sort of "Faustian's views" (except that, my view is that the article ought to reflect compromises that follow wiki guidelines with respect to reliable sources, etc.)  Volunteer Marek , E-960 has been caught making obviously misleading "interpretations" of sources (see my comment on this very section: [32]) to support his POV- any comment on that?Faustian (talk) 19:43, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support for all the reasons already voiced here by other editors who support a topic ban. Disruptive, battleground, and exhaust tactics have been used by E-960 not only on the article in question, but on all articles the user has been involved in since they began editing. As an editor, E-960 is unadulterated WP:SPA: prepared to get his/her own way by hook or by crook. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:44, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy, unfortunately your opinion of me has an inherent bias — from the start you were accusing me of various "alleged" offenses, example: @E-960 and Ivanevian: Two editors now playing at WP:TAGTEAM in order to minimise the BA's reliably sourced violence does not make for consensus: --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:18, 28 November 2015 (UTC) But, then you realized you were wrong: Also, my apologies to Ivanevian. The allusion to tag-teaming was unwarranted. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:08, 28 November 2015 (UTC). --E-960 (talk) 16:04, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry, but this vote has the character of "score settling". --E-960 (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

No, you've taken that comment out of context. I apologised to Ivanevian, not to you. My opinion of your SPA, battleground, tendentious editing (etc.) activities still stands, and is not based on WP:GRUDGE but in following your behavioural patterns on articles and talk pages. Note that a handful of edits on articles such as Gothic architecture, Brick Gothic and Baroque architecture fit squarely in the middle of the promotion of the same subject matter beginning with your first edit to each article in the same sequence, and continuing on elaborating on the same tangent thereon: Gothic here, Brick Gothic here, Baroque here. Hardly a show of a diversity of interests and input on Wikipedia... --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:13, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. This looks to me as persistent disputes between two or more contributors, maybe a case of WP:TE/WP:DE, but it is very difficult to tell who (if anyone) was at fault. If anyone feels there is a serious problem here (I am not sure), please submit this to WP:AE. This subject area is covered by EE sanctions. My very best wishes (talk) 22:53, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

It's not merely a dispute, it's about a pattern of disruptive behavior, harassment (he opened this ANI in order to harass), misleading edits, wrong claims (evident here on this very ANI) etc. all done not in order to build the encyclopedia but to remove negative info about the Blue Army from the article about it. There's a reason why all the people who have interacted with E-960 extensively have had very negative experiences about him, that they do not have with others who may also agree with him on some issues.Faustian (talk) 23:36, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

If that's the case, why do not you or someone else submit a request to WP:AE? Most contributors who supported the topic ban above seem to be heavily involved in these particular disputes. I was not, but after quickly looking at this, I am not at all sure what should be done about it. Perhaps you are right, but this is not immediately obvious. My very best wishes (talk) 00:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I hadn't thought about it. We are here because he opened an ANI against me here for no legitimate reason, in order to harass me. Another editor, uninvolved in my interactions with him, reviewed the situation and proposed that he be topic-banned as a result of his behavior. Hopefully this is settled here; he has caused enough disruptions and spent enough of others' time. So far both admins who have reviewed this have supported topic-banning him. Faustian (talk) 00:50, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, after looking more carefully, I think his editing in Allies of World War II and several other pages was problematic. Does it warrant the broad topic ban? That could be properly decided by uninvolved admins on WP:AE. However, I think you all need to simply compromise on the issues, because bringing this to WP:AE might result in sanctions with regard to several contributors. I can be wrong of course. My very best wishes (talk) 19:52, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposed Topic ban for Faustian

I'd like to propose a topic ban for user Faustian on Eastern Europe, who has been blocked several times for his editing approach on the Blue Army (Poland) page, disrupted other pages with related topics, and has used inappropriate tone to comment on other editor's ethic background instead of focusing on the content of the article.

• Double-standards motivated by nationalism? Faustian (talk) 18:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
• So far every non-Pole thinks thinks that it reflects the source. Faustian (talk) 18:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
• In the RFC and here every non-Pole felt that it reflected the source. Faustian (talk) 08:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Also here is a list of complaints from the ANI, which were filed against user Faustian by other edits:

• Vandalism of page tags by nationalist tag-team, Iryna Harpy and Faustian
• User:Faustian reported by User:Jacurek (Result:Page protected )
• User:Faustian and User:Ward3001 reported by user:jmh649 (Result:Page Protected )
• User:Faustian reported by User:194.44.15.214 (Result: Semi)

And a recant warning about Faustian's behavior on the Blue Army (Poland) page by admin User:MSGJ: @Faustian: Looking further I see you have been blocked previously for edit warring on this very same article. If evidence is produced that more than three of your five edits on this article yesterday were reverts, then I will consider blocking you too. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC) --E-960 (talk) 20:01, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support as noted above. --E-960 (talk) 20:02, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

The above is a good example of this editor's dishonest and disruptive approach. A quick example - "user:Faustian reported by User:194.44.15.214 (Result: Semi)": (link through google): [33] IP's claim was rejected by an admin, who followed my advice and semi-protected the article to prevent the IP who reported me from disrupting it. E-960 is using this as evidence to prove I am "bad?"Faustian (talk) 21:04, 28 November 2015 (UTC

• Oppose - silly. Additionally please stop accusing people of being in a tag team (WP:NPA) - that people agree with each other and disagree with you does not make them WP:TAGTEAM. —Мандичка^YO 😜 00:53, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. In my experience, Faustian has been a constructive editor in those topics, and amenable to reasonable discussion. I'd oppose a topic ban, barring serious evidence of disruption, which I am not seeing. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:04, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose; ArbCom. Per my comment in previous section. Not all of E-960s complaints are invalid. Not all of Faustian's are either. And they're not the only editors who need to take a step back at that article.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  11:23, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - Faustian has been working to improve this article for years, and as others point out above, there is essentially no equivalency between their style of editing or contributions and those of E-960. Faustian's competence and good faith is well borne out by any review of the history of Blue Army (Poland) and Talk:Blue Army (Poland), and their longstanding ability to reach consensus, including at Blue Army (Poland), with editors who disagree with him/her. It would be outrageous to sanction Faustian for being the only person, in the long term, with the fortitude to tackle E-960's disruption. I certainly don't have it. -Darouet (talk) 16:37, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose too drastic an action. Dorpater (talk) 18:12, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Darouet. It's a pity that the topic ban for E-960 has been closed off with no action. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:47, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - I don't think anyone here deserves a topic ban. It's just a controversial, contentious topic with a lot of talk page discussion and some very minor edit warring (relative to comparably controversial topics). The matter needs to be hashed out on talk, although it's true that the issue really does need some fresh eyes because otherwise these two editors just end up going in circles. Volunteer Marek  18:49, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban for E-960 and Faustian with Pending changes protection

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This conflict has been going on for several years with no hope in sight. It is a terrible drain of Wikipedia resources. Some commentators (including an admin) since left Wikipedia. No uninvolved editors are being acknowledged by the active participants in this feud ... one of the better established puppet theatres I've seen. Repeat assumptions of bad faith shown in reverts and in uncivil comments never stopped since the article was created. It takes two to tango. User:Faustian has been warned by the Arbitration enforcement numerous times for edit warring in Eastern Europe, User:E-960 even worse (with repeat warnings: Callanecc, MSGJ). These two editors (incl. blocked: Factor01 and COD T 3 among numerous "cameo appearances") constantly goad each other and everybody else into prolonging the conflict by personal attacks, vilification, and accusations of bad faith as well as "falsehoods". Please be informed. The General restrictions affecting all users editing in this area have been defined in § 11 of the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe as follows: "Any editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined, may be made subject to an editing restriction at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. The restriction shall specify that, should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling." – We do already have in place all the administrative basis necessary for imposing this topic ban; and installing the Wikipedia: Pending changes protection in the article, in order to finally stop the bleeding! Poeticbent talk 17:24, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

What have I done to deserve a topic ban? I have not been warned "numerous times" by arbitration enforcement for edit warring. In 9 years of editing I have had one (24-hour) block on an eastern European topic, which involved reverting the removal of reliably sourced information by a since-permanently banned user (compare to your own block history: [34]). When I have run into trouble, it was simply due to not walking away from an article that was undergoing attack or disruption by a clearly disruptive editor. When someone provides a falsehood, I describe it as such and provide clear evidence for that. I have created about 30 articles on Eastern European topics (see my use page: [35], several of which were featured in the "did you know" section of the wiki main page, and made about 10,000 edits. Equating me with E-960 and proposing to ban me from eastern European topics is, sorry, just not right. Faustian (talk) 19:27, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Try to see the forest for the trees, please. This is not about you, but about the time and energy wasted by the community members tricked into believing that this thing with the Blue Army (Poland) can be resolved with their pointless and useless attempts at helping you. The waste of time and resources will never stop until we stop it. Think about the Wikipedians other than you, who could use a break from this never-ending story for a change. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 20:28, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - this is nonsense. Faustian has not done anything to deserve a topic ban and Poeticbent's reasoning of "This is not about you, but about the time and energy wasted by the community members tricked into believing that this thing with the Blue Army (Poland) can be resolved with their pointless and useless attempts at helping you" shows it is a bad faith proposal. —Мандичка^YO 😜 21:00, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support (as nominator). None of them has shown any desire to resolve their differences between themselves, ever! This is a good faith proposal with everybody else in mind. Faustian made 231 edits to that talk page beginning in January 2011, E-960 made 118 edits there. The unresolved issues today, are the same as they were in 2011 long before E-960 showed up on the scene; nothing has changed one iota in spite of numerous attempts from the community. They need help, Poeticbent talk 21:45, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• I don't think you understand what topic bans are for. It appears you might be thinking of interaction ban, but I don't see that is warranted either. —Мандичка^YO 😜 07:21, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Equating a disruptive editor and someone else very active on the same page is wrong. I have opened several RFCs on that page to resolve issues, and I have worked collaboratively with non-disruptive editors with whom I disagreed (such as here: [36].Faustian (talk) 22:22, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support Faustian, has been the main editor who disrupted the article from the beginning. Most of the conflicts started when he inserted highly controversial material as seen in the talk page over the years, he has been edit warring with established edits on this page such as User:Volunteer Marek and User:Piotrus not to mention all the newer edits like myself or User:Ivanevian.--E-960 (talk) 06:57, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Admin perspective

Well this is a spectacular and complicated mess. Beginning with Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_Europe#Final_decision, closed in 2007, the article the editors are dog-fighting over is subject to discretionary sanctions, for which Faustian (talk · contribs) was previously warned under in 2014. E-960 (talk · contribs) has been repeatedly named as a possible sockpuppet of COD T 3, logged at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/COD T 3/Archive (see October 2015), for which he was apparently cleared (repeatedly) and more obtusely at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/WKS Śląsk Wrocław/Archive (alleged behavioral evidence as mentioned in the first SPI listed here). Given the above observations, I'd say that leaves the motives of both of the editors suspect here. My suggested course of action would be to topic ban both E-960 and Faustian, adopt a 0RR policy on the Blue Army (Poland) page, and permanently semi-protect the Blue Army (Poland) article to prevent ISP-based editing around a 0RR position and to better track any alleged sock accounts of interested editors working to undermine the article. TomStar81 (Talk) 04:23, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I have not committed misconduct on this article since my warning. I have sought consensus, opened neutrally-worded RFCs, etc. I am guilty of being present and active when someone else has been disruptive and feel that a blanekt topic ban would be unjust and would essentially be punishment for my presence, not for any actions. Please see this comment: [37] by User:Darouet, seconded by User:Iryna Harpy( [38]) Please consider the commnents by User:Wikimandia at the beginning of the ANI here also: [39].Faustian (talk) 04:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• I really think punishing Faustian is extreme. I don't see any diffs of him violating policy. This most recent episode, from what I can tell, started with a very non-neutrally worded RfC by E-960, who decided to begin removing info from the article claiming "consensus" on the still open RfC. (It has since been closed as no consensus.) Several of the editors active on the page have stated E-960 is an SPA and Faustian is helpful. —Мандичка^YO 😜 05:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• I would also like to see diffs demonstrating misconduct by Faustian. @TomStar81: I intend no offense, but Faustian and E-960 have essentially nothing in common, except their disagreement at Blue Army (Poland). Banning Faustian from the article would, in my opinion, be a fundamentally lazy response, since it requires the most superficial examination of what's been happening at Blue Army. Many editors have been able to disagree on the article and make some progress, but the combination of E-960's POV and inability to evaluate sources has repeatedly poisoned discussion there. It's entirely unclear on the other hand what Faustian's infraction is. -Darouet (talk) 18:28, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

User:In ictu oculi continually spreading lies/harassing - please make him stop

This has been going on for years and years now, and it seems to always get ignored or brushed aside. This is not another oops slip-up by In Ictu oculi. I've asked him so many times over those years to stop the lies my fingers are getting tired from typing it. A difference of opinion is one thing, we don't agree on diacritics. Now there are several conversations going on about whether wikipedia should ignore a person's own wishes and sources on how to spell their name in English. And in those conversations, once again, In ictu oculi is making personal attacks and spreading the same lies once again. I did not create WP:TENNISNAMES, I did not even !vote on creating that essay and told the editor I could not support something that didn't take into account all sourcing. In ictu oculi is closer to owning that essay as he edited it. Yet over and over again he attacks me on it with these continual fabrications: HERE and HERE. There are dozens of these off-topic attacks on me. I don't care that he disagrees with me on following a biographical person's own wishes, that's wikipedia. I do care about his continually, year after year, attacking me with fabricated nonsense. Please make him stop this ridiculous baloney and stick to the topics at hand, because I've had it with his own warped version of non-truth. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Here is the type of thing I had to deal with even 3 years ago when this guy tried to round up everyone he knew to attack me. It will never end with this guy and I want it stopped this time. I will keep reporting it until I get satisfaction because I don't want his attacks and lies to get swept under another rug. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:59, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I can see you are frustrated, Fyunck(click), but I don't believe those diffs warrant a block. I have posted a warning on his talk page (User talk:In ictu oculi#November 2015). If this disagreement between the two of you has been going on for years over a specific set of articles, I encourage you to utilize dispute resolution. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 14:28, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm beyond pissed. But I don't want a block. That's always the last thing I want. I want it retracted and I want it to not happen again. After years and years of this same baloney from him... always leaving the topic at hand to attack me, to slide in innuendos, to link me to the page he worked on, to bring up things from years ago every chance he gets... I'm fed up. I try to turn the other check with this fabricator, but he won't let me. He's been banned from my talk page for years, Administrators have told me to try and steer clear of his antics and they'll blow over. Well they never seem to blow over. Don't block...make him STOP! I want nothing to do with him, ever, as he is 100% untrustworthy. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:00, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

What about an interaction ban? clpo13_(talk) 20:11, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

In looking at it, that could work. If an RM or RfC happens, it looks like we can both comment as long as we don't comment with each other or bring the other one up in any way. I assume if one of us starts the RM/RfC the other could !vote? I could go for that. Anything to stop this dude. And effectively, I do that already unless it's to defend myself when he gets way out of line. And it's better than a dispute resolution mentioned above because I will never ever assume good faith or trust this editor in any way. That boat has long since sailed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:36, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I know it affects me also, but how do we get the ball rolling on that so I don't have to deal with this anymore? Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:33, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Obviously it's a holiday in the US so I expect a slow down in implementing, but I want to make sure this stays fresh. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:57, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

AFAIK, you can simply propose it yourself and editors watching this page/section will chime in supporting or opposing the proposal. Then an admin will decide whether to implement the proposal based on community consensus. clpo13_(talk) 19:38, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

• User:In ictu oculi, it really behooves you to comment here. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 01:48, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

User:Drmies, hi. I would but experience shows that old users, ones who are familiar with the Tennis/diacritics tension of 2011-2012 are not going to take this seriously, and new users, ones who are not familiar with practice in our en.wp BLP article corpus (pick at random Category:Latvian scientists, Category:Czech writers etc.) take time to get up to speed. You see the wall of text above. Any attempt to answer it will generate an even longer wall of text. But since you request, I will do.

1. Firstly I was quite happy with admin User:Liz already having dealt with it, and I thanked Liz already. I shouldn't have said "bullshit" as linked, my bad. I said sorry, I'd already edited it down myself anyway.

2. Re the headline charge of "spreading lies/harassing" the "lie" bit appears to be that I said this:

Marin Čilić -> Marin Cilic) Oppose per WP:TENNISNAMES and WP:TENNISNAMES2 both of which were indirectly initiated by this editor, and had an overwhelming rejection of the idea that blogs and Twitter are reliable sources for "tennis names", or for Croatian, etc. orthography.

But there's a reason I said "indirectly". Yes look at WP:TENNISNAMES and you'll see Fyunck post 11 times on that RFC (similar WP:TENNISNAMES2) but Fyunck did not draft the tennisnames rule; that was done by another anti-diacritics editor MakeSense64 who last edited in August 2012. However the move to remove diacritics from tennis players (not just East European, but French and Spanish and even American tennisnames) was kicked off 3 July 2011 by Fyunck etc. and edits following. I'm not a tennis editor, I just spotted one of the early RMs to remove diacritics and was not impressed with some of the sentiments expressed. I looked through categories (those Category:Latvian scientists, Category:Czech writers etc.) and found that en.wp was 99% consistently using full Unicode fonts, as was tennis.

3. Re the second headline charge "continually ..harassing". It has been two years since the last attempt at an RM to restore Ana Ivanovic → Ana Ivanović (for those not up to speed this is the one straightforward en.wp BLP title out of line with normal en.wp BLP titling practice) so "continually" is not accurate, and putting in a RM to revert a move is not usually judged "harassing". As regards the removal of -ć from article text rather than titles, that is here ANI August 2012 but also as illustrated by e.g. Basel article history Fyunck removal of -ć from Ivanović, 9 March 2012, 21 May 2013, 12 August 2013, do you see my edits on the Basel article? The 3 other editors reverting this are just rank and file editors.

4. DrMies I would now say that this is a minor trivial issue, and that this one current BLP will probably be left as a monument to tennisnames, and maybe that's how it should be. I have tried my best to be courteous, I hope that overall this is visible, and have not been accusing editors of "lies". In ictu oculi (talk) 08:33, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

This may be a trivial matter to In ictu oculi, but that because he's not the one that being attacked, or has been attacked for 4 years. All someone has to do is search our names and see all the times I pleaded with him to stop fabricating things about me. To stay on topic and not drag my name through the mud every time I comment on a foreign spelling. He says I commented on the tennisnames essay 11x... so did IIO 11x... I guess that makes it his article also. I had told the original essay writer I could not support it... that I always felt we had to look at all sources when determining the spelling of a name. The RfC was "Can a wikiproject require no-diacritics names, based on an organisation's rule or commonness in English press?" The answer was "no" from those voting. You can't make it that narrow in determining anything here on wikipedia. To limit sources to one kind of source didn't fly. Why IIO keeps lying over and over in linking me to that essay I have no idea. I have told him to stop a lot...it's not an error that he's making... it a bold attack that he has gotten away with for years! I want it to stop, and stop NOW! Even now he's so sure of himself that he's done nothing wrong and will likely continue to attack me that he told the admin who asked him to comment that I'm just going to stand back and watch. He's done that a lot... get's a few people to invest time in attacking me and then sits back. He did it in the past with fellow editor... that fellow editor and I got blocked. IIO sat back unharmed. On Nov 25 IIO tried again to drag that same editor into the fray with this diff. This time that editor didn't bite. It's these types of things and his continual tennisnames crapola that led me here. I've had it with him. I will never trust him. It looks like at Talk:Ana Ivanovic another administrator is fed up with him too. Maybe it's IIO that should be topic banned from anything diacritic related such as moving pages and RM's. But all I was demanding was that he be stopped from attacking me. The others can defend themselves. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:22, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose as frivolous complaint, but advise both editors to avoid further personalization of title/style disputes. Both of these editors have a hard-core position (opposite ones) on MOS:DIACRITICS, and have been testy with each other for years, but this isn't an actionable level of animosity. If anything, the complaint here is so finger-pointy is appears itself to cross the WP:ARBATC#All parties reminded line. Repeated but unproven accusations of making "personal attacks" and engaging in "harassment", plus WP:AGF failures like "I will never trust him", are the kind of aspersion-casting covered by discretionary sanctions there (whether I think ArbCom should be interfering with internal policy discussions or not, which I don't). So, both editors should probably mutually agree to lay off each other. For starters, In ictu oculi should stop trying to "blame" Fyunck(click) for wording at the old tennis wikiproject WP:PROJPAGE, even if F(c) has tried to rely on it in past discussions, or for RfCs like WP:TENNISNAMES. If it goads F(c) that much to link him to the essay/RfCs, the obvious solution is "don't do that". Secondly, F(c) needs to stop accusing IIO of harassment, attacks, and untrustworthiness. Neither of these sound difficult.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  11:18, 30 November 2015 (UTC) [Revised to correct my confusion between RFC and project page shortcuts.]

User:SMcCandlish I can completely live with that suggestion, that neither I nor anyone else ever again suggest that Fyunck was indirectly responsible for the trouble about "tennis names". But evidently we cannot ask editors to not link to two valid RFCs with landslide results. Dozens of editors contributed to WP:TENNISNAMES (an RFC which you posted) and WP:TENNISNAMES2 and these RFCs are binding until someone comes along with WP:TENNISNAMES3 to undo them. But sure, the first suggestion, if it helps, no problem. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:46, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Right, I was confusing TENNISNAMES with the old version of the WikiProject Tennis "guideline" (essay). I've corrected that above, and yes, it's of course reasonable to cite prior relevant RMs/RfCs. Anyway, not assigning responsibility for either is what I was getting at; it would be in keeping with the "focus on edits not editors" idea, and would help F(c) do likewise, since obviously "continually spreading lies/harassing" isn't exactly civil or focused on the content, either.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  18:48, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

If IIO stops lying about and harassing me on tennis names (as he has done for years and years) then of course I will stop accusing him of lying and harassment. That goes without saying. But I've finally had it with him doing it. All I want is for him to stop. I could care less, if in discussions, people link to that dead tennisnames essay. That's normal course of action. But sorry, after 4 years all trust is used up. I'm not the one who keeps bringing up his name in discussions, that's all on IIO. If he stops, great! If it takes an IBAN great, since I pretty much do that anyway. And I keep focus on the edits, he does not. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:16, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

[NB: That's what we call a WP:NOTGETTINGIT response. But I'm willing to take your "let this go for now" message below at face value.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:01, 1 December 2015 (UTC)]

If both of you could stop the "lies and harassment" talk, that would be great. In ictu oculi, it would also be helpful if you stopped dragging up the past. Reminding other editors of stuff that happened in 2011 is less than helpful. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 06:11, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll tell you what. I'll take Liz, SMcCandlish and Drmies on faith. "In ictu oculi" has been warned in this episode for a personal attack and I have also shown that he tried goading others into attacking me. I will bookmark this archive. All I asked was for him to permanently stop. I was to the point after all these years of attacks that I didn't care whether I went down in flames trying to make the attacks stop. It is not trivial when it occurs over and over and over and over...for years. If it happens again I will bring this back and will be asking for a lot more. But I will drop it as of now. Let's close up shop here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:17, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Dƶoxar and Kyiv/ Kiev

User:Dƶoxar is not ready to accept Wikipedia consensus that the capital of Ukraine is Kiev (not Kyiv), see Talk:Kiev/Naming. Hedoes not edit Wikipedia often these days, but when he does, he comes back to Ahatanhel Krymsky and replaces Kiev with Kyiv on all occasions. Lest year I took it to their talk page, and they said they do not accept the above-linked discussion as consensus. For safety, I took the issue to the WikiProject:Ukraine and got exactly zero comments. Today, they started an edit-war in the article (at three reverts now) and called me a "vandal" [40]. This is usual article ownership problem, which is exaggerated by the fact that only them and me care about the article at all. IAt this point, I am not sure what to do, I would definitely reject myself a similar RFPP request, and I do not see how 3RR would give smth in this situation. I think the general problem is that nobody cares, and the user just insists on keeping it at their version.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:30, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

May be to add that other users have been blocked in the past for mass renaming / replace Kiev by Kyiv, but to get blocked, they really had to work hard and to exhaust someone's patience.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:31, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think there is a particular need for consensus about this specific issue, given it falls under the more generic scope of WP:ENGLISH. As far as I'm aware, the English-language name of the city is Kiev, even though Kyiv is a more direct transliteration of the Ukrainian name: "do not substitute a systematically transliterated name for the common English form of the name, if there is one". LjL (talk) 21:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I accept Kiev but I don't accept exclusion of Kyiv. Historically Kiev was used wider but practically both versions are correct. So, I think users have right to choose depending on context. (Although this is not precisely this case but I see it similar.)--Dƶoxar (talk) 22:03, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Kyiv is the Latin spelling of Ukrainian name and it is the capital of Ukraine, versus the Russian-era Kiev. Kyiv is used nearly universally by a majority of reliable sources, including other governments, the CIA Factbook, National Geographic etc. Insistence on the Russian spelling of Kiev is ridiculous and Dƶoxar is right to question how this is allowed to be "consensus" when it's clearly politically motivated from pro-Russian editors. It goes to show the problem with consensus in that facts are irrelevant; consensus could be that fuchsia is yellow; that doesn't mean it actually is. It's no different than clarifying Peking/Beijing; Bombay/Mumbai, Calcutta/Kolkata, all of which are respected on Wikipedia. Both can be used but Kiev should redirect to Kyiv, and not other way around. —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:11, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

ANI is not the venue to discuss Kiev vs Kyiv issue. We have Talk:Kiev/Naming for that. I suggested to take the issue there a year ago, but nothing happened.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:18, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Kyiv redirects to Kiev and many articles, such as Kyiv Post and Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv, use this spelling as it is perfectly correct. Kyiv is not wrong nor is it vandalism. There are many articles with spelling variations of proper names, such as Lwów Ghetto for Lviv, because of transliteration or common name. I fail to see how Dƶoxar is being disruptive and think you are POV-pushing. —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:37, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me Wikimandia, who said "Kyiv was vandalism"? The OP said that the other editor accused them of vandalism for insisting on Kiev. LjL (talk) 22:41, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@LjL: IMO, OP is implying Dƶoxar is being disruptive by using Kyiv in articles, and that he went on his page to warn him not to do that. I'm stating that there is no such need as Kyiv is not wrong and as I stated, is frequently used across Wikipedia. It's not vandalism so why the need to go tell them to stop using it? It would be like going on someone's talk page and warning them to stop using the name Myanmar to refer to Burma. Surely there are more important issues to worry about. —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:52, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Whether or not there is merit to using the "Kyiv" name (which is not so much for this board to discuss), WP:Vandalism isn't the only behavior that is against Wikipedia policies. LjL (talk) 22:54, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

OP stated that Dzoxar started an edit war when that is not true - OP reverted Dzoxar first.[41] Meanwhile, Dzoxar did not violate any policies by using Kyiv and I can see his frustration over this. I think it's a real problem that OP, who is Russian, is POV-pushing insisting on the Russian version for the Ukrainian capital. LjL what you said above about Kiev being the English name is not correct - Kyiv is recognized as English by multiple English dictionaries and reliable sources. It's not the equivalent of using "Munchen" for Munich or "Moskva" for "Moscow." "Kiev" is an artifact of Soviet Ukraine and no different than the Russian spellings of other Ukrainian cities that have been changed and recognized, such as Lviv, Kharkiv, Zaporizhia, Luhansk etc. Reverting mentions of Kyiv is pure politics and IMO rather unbecoming of an admin like Ymblanter. If people want to use the spelling Kyiv in random articles about Ukrainians like Ahatanhel Krymsky, who cares? —Мандичка^YO 😜 23:16, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I, for one, do care a bit about consistency. As to "reverting first"... that's not (necessarily) starting an edit war, as per WP:BRD. Usually, the one reinstating the reverted content without discussion is the one considered to be edit warring. LjL (talk) 23:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Iron-fisted consistency is not a hard and fast rule, thus we allow variations for British/American spelling, DMY/MDY dates etc. They are all correct. Kiev and Kyiv are both English, and thus we have Kyiv in article names because it is not considered foreign. Consistency in the same article is what I care about. The article on Ahatanhel Krymsky was started from the very beginning with the spelling Kyiv. Ymblanter is the one who changed it to Kiev. —Мандичка^YO 😜 23:34, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

As advised, please take content debates to Talk:Kiev/Naming and off of ANI. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:44, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Where I've started an RfC here. BMK (talk) 00:00, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

• I personally disagree with the idea that this merits yet another RfC about Kiev/Kyiv, when every single one of the perennial RfCs on the matter comes up as a close as Kiev. This is a user disruption issue, and a IDHT issue. If the user will not accept En-Wiki style, they need sanctioning in order to stop their disruption. The sanction could start as small as a topic ban on anything Kiev-related, broadly construed, enforceable by very longterm blocks (since they only edit sporadically) followed by an indef it if recurs. Softlavender (talk) 02:31, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

• I don't disagree, I'd be happy to withdraw the RfC if something else could be done - but it's not just Dƶoxar now, it's also Wikimandia edit warring to put in "Kyiv". Any solution involving topic bans, or promises not to continue their policy-violating editing, would have to include both editors. BMK (talk) 03:54, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Sigh. You're right. Wikimandia needs to be included in the topic ban if she is going to be obtuse like this. Wikipedia has been through this revolving door far too many times for it to be open to debate every six months. Softlavender (talk) 04:01, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I've made my opinion clear here and in the RfC, and I fail to see why I should be topic banned. I hardly even edit in this area so excuse me for being knowledgeable and unbiased. BMK has done more reverts than I have. People claiming Kiev is the "English" name of Kyiv are the ones being obtuse à la "Bombay is the English word for Mumbai!" Duh. —Мандичка^YO 😜 04:57, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

We go by consensus on Wikipedia, not by your personal opinion. And the consistent consensus every time this comes up every few months like clockwork for the past 11 years is to use the English-language WP:COMMONNAME spelling/transliteration of "Kiev". Perhaps you have not been privy to all of those discussions – if you have, you're being obtuse; if you hadn't, you can check them out now. Softlavender (talk) 05:09, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah the same brilliant Wikipedia consensus that got Bicholim Conflict labeled a featured article? Consensus does not replace fact. Looking over recent RfCs, most of them "no consensus". About what you'd expect if you'd done an RFC "which is correct, DMY or MDY"? They're both correct. But for Ukrainian articles, Kyiv is correct. Just like Mumbai, Beijing, Kolkata and Almaty are correct. Old names are no longer used. Arguments show that people used in this so far show most people don't understand the difference and think Kiev is how you transliterate Київ, and the pro-Russian bias here is apparent. I'm hardly a Ukrainian nationalist, and frequently correct names based on how people actually refer to themselves,[42] but I'm neutral enough not to inflict Soviet-era spellings on a capital city. —Мандичка^YO 😜 05:51, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't believe that anyone would argue that consensus gives the "correct" answer everytime, but since we don't have a Content Supremeo to hand down rulings on content disputes, there has to be some mechanism in pace to settle these things so everyone can move on, and consensus is the way we do it. Og course consensus can change over time, but the "Kiev" consensus has been remarkably consistent since at least 2007, and a glance at the page the RfC is on will show at least 8 RMs from 2007-2013 in which a move to "Kyiv" was rejected. Teher may be more in the archives, I haven't checked.

It's one thing to refuse to accept a local conses which consists of 2 people with an opinion opposed to yours, but it's another thin completely to fly in the face of multkiple consensus decisions involving large numbers of editors. I suggest that you and Dƶoxar simply grit your teeth, accept the fact that you are in the minority, and drop the matter. I also suggest that if either of you change "Kiev" to "Kyiv" again, that an admin should drop a significant block on the editor who did so. BMK (talk) 23:54, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

I generally turn to the BBC when I want to know what the common spelling is in the English language. While it does use Kyiv in some places, it overwhelmingly uses Kiev in general usage - up to and including this month. Having checked a few other western news outlets, they also tend to be the same, Occasionally Kyiv, mostly Kiev. Which doesnt appear to have substantially changed since the last 15 discussions on this topic. Also, content dispute yadda yadda.. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:40, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The RfC on renaming was closed as WP:SNOW. Kiev is the WP:COMMONNAME. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:03, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

As it has been since at least 2007. BMK (talk) 03:29, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with BMK's suggestion. There is a problem. Normal people believe that English is a language in its own right, and therefore the English language can have words for places that are different from other languages. Some people do not accept this point of view, and believe that English should use transliteration from the Ukrainian language instead of using English words. It is such a pity that such people have to edit in the English language Wikipedia at all. Let them edit in the Ukrainian Wikipedia.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:52, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The long-standing consensus having been confirmed, if editors User:Dƶoxar or User:Wikimandia again make a change from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" or any other version of the name, or if they make any other change of name for a person or a place for which a standing consensus exists as to what the WP:COMMONNAME is, they will be placed under an indefinite topic ban from changing the spelling or transliteration into English of any name, anywhere on English Wikipedia, It is their responsibility to determine if a consensus exists or not. BMK (talk) 23:54, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support as nom. BMK (talk) 23:54, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as common sense - Kyiv exists in many articles (including titles) and is a perfectly valid spelling and in fact is CORRECT per every single official source. Being that I'm not a sheep, I also would not accept consensus if Wikipedians decided that the earth is flat and vaccines cause autism. And indefinite topic ban of what? What is the topic? Proper spelling of European capitals? —Мандичка^YO 😜 04:46, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
  • No one is forcing you to change your own personal opinion, to which you are well entitled. But if you don't accept the community's decision regarding the spelling of the name, your only choices are to attempt to change that consensus, or to refrain from making any edits relating to the name. Seeing as the first option has repeatedly failed, for the time being you need to go with the second option, or else it will be imposed on you. (Other editors can voluntarily abide by this community decision despite their personal objections, so I hope you can as well.) —Psychonaut (talk) 09:25, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
    • No, I don't accept the community's "decision" regarding the capital city's name, any more than the community can "decide" who the queen of England is or who is on the U.S. Supreme Court. Facts should not be left open to consensus and this is the biggest joke about Wikipedia, especially in cases like this when you have serious ethnic bias and ignorance running amok. I am not an active editor on Ukrainian articles but I will continue to call bullshit like I did in the case of OP. —Мандичка^YO 😜 07:09, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
      • That you still cannot see the difference between "the truth" and an editorial decision does not bode well for your continued freedom to edit in this topic area (or at all). —Psychonaut (talk) 08:33, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
        • LOL the "truth" essay - are you suggesting it is not verified that the capital city of Ukraine is called Kyiv? Even though the government of Kyiv and Ukraine, in all English-language material it has published, clearly calls it that? It's not verified even though the CIA World Factbook and National Geographic call it that, among many other expert sources? This is not verifiable? Perhaps you should visit WP:CIR if you think this can't be verified. —Мандичка^YO 😜 10:21, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Although BMK and I see eye to eye, in this case such a broad topic ban is excessive. If Wikimadia continues to do what they're doing now, just levy an edit warring block. Blackmane (talk) 23:52, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Madridejos, Cebu and Lazaro Mangubat

I have had a lot of trouble with WP:DE by User:Mateothehistorian also number as 49.151.10.237 / 49.151.38.12 (in Metro Manila). He has again and again added text without WP:V or WP:RS. I have added additional references but he keeps deleted them.

Madridejos, Cebu

Revision as of 16:40, 3 September 2015
   Revision as of 08:53, 20 November 2015
Revision as of 04:17, 22 November 2015
   Revision as of 06:08, 22 November 2015
Revision as of 07:06, 22 November 2015
   Revision as of 07:15, 22 November 2015
Revision as of 08:38, 22 November 2015
Revision as of 08:45, 22 November 2015
   Revision as of 09:09, 22 November 2015
Revision as of 13:59, 23 November 2015
   Revision as of 23:06, 25 November 2015
Latest revision as of 17:24, 27 November 2015

Lazaro Mangubat

   Revision as of 22:52, 13 November 2015
Revision as of 04:14, 22 November 2015
    Revision as of 22:58, 23 November 2015
Revision as of 16:04, 24 November 2015
   Revision as of 19:00, 24 November 2015
Revision as of 23:46, 24 November 2015
   Latest revision as of 00:09, 26 November 2015

In the nearly three years, all Mateothehistorian has done is about 60 editings of Lazaro Mangubat and about a dozen of Madridejos, Cebu. All he writes is legend not fact; does not give WP:RS and WP:V; ignores or reverts any references I have had. Unbuttered parsnip (talk) mytime= Sat 04:13, wikitime= 20:13, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

All change, this time 49.151.2.157, to Madridejos, Cebu Latest revision as of 19:43, 28 November 2015

I am about to clear again. All edits today I have made 37 to other pages. "Mateothehistorian" made – none. This needs some page protection to allow only logins in. And a block against User:Mateothehistorian.
Recap the two articles said by him:
* Lazaro Mangubat was grandson of Lapu-Lapu (Lapu-Lapu died about 1542)
* Fray de Medina write about 1630. No mention of Spanish forts in Bantayan island.
* Madridejos municipality states fort (kota, kuta, cotta) made 1790, as does 'Panublion' of Ateneo de Manila / Society of Jesuits (or 1792)
* All watchtowers on Bantayan island where built by Fr. Doroteo Andrada del Rosario, parish priest of Bantayan in the 19th century.
* Lazaro Mangubat is an orphan, Madridejos, Cebu is updated and used
(Some, I had a stroke in April, and I can read / hear OK but writing / speaking are quite difficult.) – Unbuttered parsnip (talk) mytime= Sun 07:18, wikitime= 23:18, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I hasn't replied anything, not to me, not to you. Has his stop?? – Unbuttered parsnip (talk) mytime= Tue 08:17, wikitime= 00:17, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Gotgot44

Gotgot44 (talk · contribs) had been warned in the past for vandalism of multiple pages (not recently though), tonight they're at it again. Just great. Aethyta (talk) 10:28, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

You're required to notify the user; I've done so for you. It might also help to explain how the edits constitute "vandalism". For many of us the subject matter is opaque.--Bbb23 (talk) 11:45, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, a brief glance at the most recent edits

This is nonsensical OR

This is an odd statement, probably OR or some sort.

This edit removed a lot of sources

More OR

They also broke a few images. This seems to be more incompetence plus some English issues than malicious vandalism of any sort. Blackmane (talk) 13:00, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. Looks like a troll to me. Aethyta (talk) 17:50, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

wp:agf Seems like a legit user to me. Possibly a little misguided. He only needs a dedicated mentor and he will be fine for editing. I do not consider him a troll. W oWiTmOvEs 00:48, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Box Office India has gained a lot from Wikipedia

Few days ago I filed an ANI about a user who removes reliable sources to add boxofficeindia.

Today another old editor comes to prove that boxofficeindia is the only source for boxoffice collections, removed references from Bollywood Hungama and The Financial Express with edit summary "Don't add box office figures now. Wait until BOI publishes" and removed content sourced from International Business Times

Me, myself regularly visit boxofficeindia.com to check latest box office colections of Bollywood movies. Now: How I came to know about this website? Today i remembered.

Few years ago I used to read Bollywood movie articles in Wikipedia. I read the critical reception and the box office section. I read the plot of movies, that i didn't want to watch. In the box office section, boxofficeindia website would be used as reference. Due to that i visited the website. There was no other such Bollywood box office related website dedicated only to box office. At that time the website was very ordinary than what it is today. I don't get it why this website is given preference over others.

I read the warnings of Administrator given to spammers "Wikipedia is not a vehicle for driving traffic to your website". But me and many people visited boxofficeindia through Wikipedia. Some third party news websites also mention about boxofficeindia. Even they might have read wikipedia articles. Even good faith editors have begun to trust boxofficeindia. I never objected against boxofficeindia, but if editors with high edit count starts preferring boxofficeindia over other much much reliable websites then there is something fishy going on here, as much more reliable websites as International Business Times India edition, India Today - 1 2. Business Standard - 1. The Economic Times- 1 also publishes Box office reports along with Koimoi and Bollywood Hungama.

Novice spammers, open an account, and directly start spamming their website in multiple pages and get blocked. Experienced ones read the Template:Uw-sblock which are posted on user talk page blocked for spamming. And this blocking template has link to this Forbes page page named "Spin Me Softly"--(reasons unknown to me, why that link was given in the template).

And in this page Andy Greenberg wrote in the year 2007: -- "But with the right tactics, articles can be successfully tweaked to improve brand visibility and drive traffic to other Web sites, contends marketing guru Spencer. He suggests that marketers add valuable text to an article, along with a link to their own Web site. Since Wikipedia’s editors will hesitate to delete useful content, the link often stays on the page.

Even better, Spencer says, is to develop a user profile on the site that builds personal trust within the Wikipedia community. That means spending time deleting typos in articles, cleaning up spam and otherwise cultivating a good Wiki-citizen image. “You have to make real edits that add value, not just ones that boost your company or your client,” Spencer says. “Developing that street cred is really important. If you try to add links or content without it, chances are it’ll be reverted.”

As if, we want to teach the spammers how to spam successfully, otherwise I don't see any other reason that article with such spamming/advertizing tricks being included in a blocking template meant for blocking spammers. --The Avengers 13:41, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

If it's not immediately clear to admins, in addition to musing generally about problems in Indian cinema articles, The Avengers appears to be complaining directly about user Arjann, for instance about this edit summary linked above where Arjann bossily instructs users Don't add box office figures now. Wait until BOI publishes. This sort of gruff assertion is not helpful as it's not based on any Indian cinema community precedent. Indian film grosses are all estimates. There is no reliable way to track this information, and there is corruption throughout the industry. Some of that corruption takes place at Wikipedia as well, with paid editors and socks going to extreme lengths to inflate numbers, deflate numbers, report the newest, highest pet estimate, etc. as if the made-up box office estimate from Times of India that comes in at 2pm is more reliable than the made-up estimate that came in at 1pm from the Mumbai Mirror. Facepalm

The Indian cinema community has made no such determination that BoxOfficeIndia.com is the only reliable source. In fact, it generally feels the opposite, and this assertion that BOI is the only go-to source is very similar to what indeffed user WikiBriefed tried to pull.[43][44][45]. Arjann has done this a few times, for instance, here he removes would normally be a suitable reference, IBTimes, with the insufficient explanation unofficial source. I can only surmise that he means that he prefers BoxOfficeIndia.com, but when do we discard reliable sources like this? Here he makes an unsupported proclamation Oye Times is more reliable than Filmibeat. Who said? There's nothing in the Indian cinema task force's WP:ICTF#Guidelines on sources that asserts this. I don't see any discussion at RSN. I don't know what Arjann's specific motives are, but by all appearances, it looks like an attempt to take ownership and to craft articles to fit a POV. I also notice bizarre edits like this where Arjann ignores an obvious embedded note that asks for film budget data to be attributed to a reliable source. He doesn't add a source, just the comment, Budget is confirmed. Arjann may need a refresher in proper Wikipedia editing. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:13, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

The Avengers does ask some, on the face of it, reasonable questions about the rationale behind inclusion, and content of the external link, which was added in 2008. Perhaps they might be best addressed at Wikipedia talk:Template messages/User talk namespace if it's not deemed appropriate here? Begoon ^talk 01:47, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

The thing I found about BOI is that they do no independent checking of the factuality (if that's even a word) or accuracy of the information that is posted to the site. I wonder whether there is a circular action going on here. BOI is used as a source in WP, driving more traffic to BOI, consequently encouraging more editors to use it despite the fact that the material on BOI has not been confirmed to be accurate. Blackmane (talk) 05:23, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I see no reason why we should remove sourcing from legitimate newspapers in favor of a website with zero information about them. If the paper sources the website, fine, I can accept that but we shouldn't remove it in favor of the website. Before there was spamming to get Koimoi as the official source and I think it's been rounds of other websites in the same fashion over the years. Take note that, for example, Box Office India has more details on its server and its domain registrar than any person behind the company. But we've had two prior discussions at RSN over the years and once again at the Indian films talk page. I think the prudent thing is warn Arjann and others not to remove other sources in favor of Box Office India at the moment and then to have another discussion at RSN about it. If they want to spam it, block them. We may have really reliable sources we use for American films for example, that doesn't mean we would eliminate newspaper and other sources in favor of one source. Again, we're down to the same issue of several newspapers use it as a source and therefore should we consider it a reliable source (or I guess the reliable source) based on that. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:41, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Box-office means film business, and that's why Indian business/finance newspapers publish box-office related news. If we have sources from Indian Business newspapers, then these websites shouldn't be used as reference. If we don't have a source from any newspaper, then only these websites as BOI, Koimoi can be used. There must be some consensus about this, as we can't repeated ANI discussion about old editors preferring Boxofficeindia to remove references from well established business/finance based newspapers. Boxofficeindia's popularity is due to Wikipedia. And if some newspaper mentions boxofficeindia, it's more likely the journalist read wikipedia Bollywood articles (which use BOI as reference).The Avengers 08:34, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Please read this discussion titled Box Office India Discussion and BO of all BW films. However, one may use also use Rentrak for the accurate figures. I have been a lot through this BOI discussion and I'm really tired.

• 1. I know putting the premise again despite knowing that it has copyright problem was in good faith. I assumed that some user who may have seen the film observes this and writes a full fledge plot of the film in his own words, later.Here Oye Times is more reliable than Filmibeat. On this I want to say that it was Oye Times that published first and filmibeat just took that from it. Filmibeat is not reliable in any case.
• 2. I'm not pushing any fan POV. Go through the article and the history of edits I have made on the page. I kept and always keeping it as neutral as possible. If any disagreement clear it on talk pages or invite users for the same.
• 3. The Avengers you are simply getting mad at me for all this. I didn't expect this from you side. Arjann (talk) 15:43, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

@Arjann:, Read the full comment made by me. The heading is about boxofficeIndia. I didn't make the section heading as Arjann. The bitter truth is that we all, including me are taking part in this game of promoting boxofficeindia above others, when it comes to boxoffice figures. I have clearly mentioned that, for last few years i am visiting boxofficeindia to check the details of latest Bollywood movies. And it is from Wikipedia movie articles, I became aware of this website. You try to think hard, Honestly----When was the first time you were aware of this website. Was it through Wikipedia or some other sources. I am not against boxofficeindia. I don't like when people remove sources from websites of Indian newspapers which are more than 40 years old and include boxofficeindia. I checked some old movie pages and the BOI refences become deadlinks. The Avengers 16:02, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

(non-admin closure) 166 troll. BMK (talk) 04:45, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
BOI is the NUMBER ONE source for indian box office numbers. No other source compares. We should be banning all other sources right now. Don't be attacking editors like User:Semanti Paul who are doing good work and spreading BOI everywhere. 166.170.46.213 (talk) 03:52, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• This is being discussed again at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Indian_cinema_task_force#BO_of_all_BW_films. I think the general view there is that BOI is a reliable source but no one believes that it is the most reliable source. I suggest that further discussions continue there. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:37, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

www.boxofficeindia.com geolocates to United Kingdom

Two domain Ip results showed that the websites'IP is 31.172.248.224 which is located in United Kingdom. 1, 2. The Avengers 05:37, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

That's nice. Box Office India needs some actual reliable sources though (it's largely useless), it states that the server is in Houston which of course means nothing about who is actually running it. Again, we should take this back to the Indian cinema talk page. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

(non-admin closure) Ho-hum. 166 range troller again. BMK (talk) 04:44, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Support BOI BOI is a first class website and is the best source for Indian films. 166.170.48.222 (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2015 (UTC) Why have you not been range blocked, Mr WOP troll? 207.38.156.219 (talk) 00:15, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Replicative editing of Leaf-cutter bee articles

User:Thine Antique Pen has made a replicate expansion of hundreds of Megachile species articles from August 28. He/she seems to have concocted general information about the genus Megachile together with specific information about a single species, and copied them over almost each and every species article in the genus. The result is simply a devastating amount of misinformation in hundreds of articles. I opt for immediate reversal of all these edits. Gidip (talk) 15:58, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I am going to discuss this at WT:INSECTS where there has been some feedback. I am not sure what administrator assistance is being requested; a number of experienced editors, including administrators, have been aware of these article expansions that I made in August for a long time. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 19:23, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)These articles were created edited at a speed of about 10/min and formed part of Wikipedia:Stub Contest/Entries#Thine Antique Pen. I've looked at a few e.g. Megachile afra, banksi, cockerelli and decemsignata. The quite detailed three-paragraph descriptions are identical apart from the species name, who first described it and when, and a reference retrieval date. There are 1,501 of these articles. In the end, they didn't count in the contest.

@Gidip:, can you briefly indicate how much of a sample article is incorrect? I can hardly believe what I've seen, that 1,501 bee species don't differ in any way worth mentioning, but I know nothing of the Megachilidae. NebY (talk) 19:54, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Correction; the articles were edited in August 2015 with the insertion of the three apparently identical paragraphs of description. They were actually created in October 2014, also by Thine Antique Pen. Sorry for my error; I've taken the liberty of correcting it above. NebY (talk) 20:26, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

For convenience, let's continue the discussion at WT:INSECTS. Gidip (talk) 20:56, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

When one rereads the nominations and supports at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Thine Antique Pen (from one month later) with the knowledge we have now, one wonders how this was missed by everyone at that time. Anyway, it seems from the linked discussion that the OP was correct and that the content additions were generally wrong. They have been reverted, and if no further action is needed (like checking if the same happened at other articles as well) this can be closed. Fram (talk) 12:40, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Unresponsive editor making unexplained changes

Chickensire (talk · contribs) continues to change geo-coordinates on city articles without providing a source. I left this message asking for an explanation and source, and was provided with a dead link as a source. I asked a second time here, and again no response, yet the user continues to change geo-coordinates on city articles. Also, the user has been creating redirects, but would not respond asked why they are doing this. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 00:29, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Are the changes improvements? BMK (talk) 00:41, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I've spot checked their changes. The good news: the new coords are within the cities that are the subject; the bad news: I can see no rationale behind the change - the old coords seems just as valid as the new coords, and the new coords don't do anywhere logical, like City Hall. Given that, I think we do need to here from Chickenshire as to why they are doing what they're doing.

When they do that for coords, they might also explain why they made a handful of article moves, shifting "Town, New York" to "Town, County, New York" without discussion. These I have reverted. There's also the question of why they created a redirect from "Harlem, New York County, New York" to a subsection of "History of Harlem" - I have changed the target to "Harlem, New York City", which is where our article is. BMK (talk) 01:00, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

The editor says on the talk page that those are the coordinates for the city's original settlement. Since these may or may not have anything to do with the city's current geographical center, I've asked them to stop, and to explain the moves as well. BMK (talk) 01:15, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm also a bit confused at your report, Magnolia677. You called them an "unresponsive editor", but in fact they've responded to your inquiries 3 times. How is that "unresponsive"? This is clearly a newbie who doesn't know how to indent or add a sig, we should probably give them a break or two. BMK (talk) 01:25, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Alright, not so much a newbie, since they've been here since March 2012 and have almost 1500 edits. BMK (talk) 01:39, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

This editor continues to randomly change coordinates here, continues to move articles without discussion here, and still has not responded to either User:Beyond My Ken or myself on their talk page. Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:05, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

::::::Maybe the editor is just a little busy changing random stuff to read his/ her messages? I am sure he/she will catch up when the time is right. I don't believe there is any need for action on our part. Just let them do what they need to do. W oWiTmOvEs 13:36, 1 December 2015 (UTC) striking comment by blocked troll account. Blackmane (talk) 01:45, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

The editor in question seems to have moved on to other types of edits which do not seem problematic. BMK (talk) 04:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

AFD Backlog

Maybe this is just me, but the backlog at WP:AFD is as long as I have ever seen it; there are plenty of discussions with clear consensus that have not been closed yet, and a number that could bear closure in any case because they have been relisted far too many times. More eyes are needed, admins and non-admins both. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:25, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93 how can a non admin help? Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:38, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

FreeatlastChitchat; non-admins can help by a) expressing considered opinions in AFD discussions where consensus is still unclear, so that consensus may be reached sooner, and b) if they are experienced enough, by performing non-admin closures in situations where there is clear consensus for an outcome that does not require admin action (ie clear keep, merge, or redirect outcomes). Regards, Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:43, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

This should do the trick.

I'll take some time to run through some of these— I'm awake. For everyone else, a loud wake-up call might be in order. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 08:33, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Don't worry, someone will come round and set them all to relist for another seven days, instead of getting off the fence. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 09:37, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

For admins who want to help out, WP:OAFD is a good place to start. A word of warning, there seem to be a larger than usual number of contested and messy ones in there at the moment, which might explain the backlog. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 12:37, 29 November 2015 (UTC).

I am coming my friend. Do not despair. A modicum of effort should make it appear like there is no backlog. W oWiTmOvEs 12:09, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

The wp:AfD industry is taking over Wikipedia. We all put way too much effort into it and content building has become secondary. Just my $.02. Ottawahitech (talk) 05:18, 3 December 2015 (UTC)please ping me

Move discussion watching needed

Can one or more uninvolved admins keep an eye on Talk:Bangalore#Requested move 29 November 2015 please? RMs on the names of Indian cities have been a tense issue and the current proposal expresses concern about canvassing in previous RMs which does nothing to settle this. Timrollpickering (talk) 21:03, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Accusations of racism at Talk:Bangalore

I wish to propose a ban on User:Loginnigol from commenting on race in any forum. Two weeks ago, he claimed that stating an issue was "manifestly two-faced (Western/white versus non-)" was "not ... making it a race issue". He was asked to withdraw the comments, apologize and desist from making similar comments in the future. Today, he has returned to the attack by accusing opponents of "white supremacy (Indian sources are regarded as inferior to lily white Anglo Saxon sources)". DrKay (talk) 13:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Notified the editor as required here. Is there a reason we shouldn't block under WP:NOTHERE? Race-biting over sources is not a good use of time here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 13:48, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

He is editing since 2011 though and looks active, right? D4iNa4 (talk) 14:41, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

DrKay had notified in a different section, perhaps you missed that Ricky. I'm pinging Future Perfect at Sunrise who had proposed placing this page under discretionary sanctions. —SpacemanSpiff 14:43, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

He should have been blocked for edit warring at Apple pie where he seems to have an anti-western or anti-American pov and introduced ridiculous "facts". Although others tried to use the article talk page to address his changes specifically, he did not engage. Also, he blanked different editors attempts to discuss with him on his own talk page. This may be more than just race issues.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:50, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Can I propose a ban on the DrKay for making false accusations and for attempting to ban discussion on a TALK page? It's bad enough that the article is biased but that's not enough for some. They also want to prevent discussion on the talk page. Needless to say I categorically reject his claims that I am "accusing opponents" of racism whatever that means (I didn't even know there were "opponents" here. That itself sounds like racism to me. My comments today or yesterday refer only and exclusively to content, not "opponents" or persons of any other sort. —Loginnigol (talk) 14:53, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Opponents of the move. DrKay (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• No, there will be no such "ban". I actually agree with Loginnigol that the comments on Talk:Bangalore aren't racist or race-baiting--they're just completely inane. I hasten to add that I have not looked at the issues signaled by Berean Hunter. Drmies (talk) 15:36, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Inane isn't better. Either way, dismissing sources due to the race of the author accomplishes little and doesn't get you taken particularly seriously. And this is the sixth discussion (all five prior opposed) in just over a year so I'd say a ban on proposing the move again is prudent. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:47, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I disagree, that's not better. But a move ban, sure. Drmies (talk) 21:44, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Book spam

A book called Worlds Together, Worlds Apart[46] is being spammed (at least that's the appearance into multiple articles by multiple new editors, eg User:Jaredlynn, User:AlexandraMKing and User:Sarahgilbert18. I've blocked Sarahgilbert18 after a warning, but if anyone feels an unblock makes sense no need to contact me. I see that User:JamesBWatson and User:Elizium23 warned AlexandraMKing and I asked her if it was a school project, after which she stopped editing. I'm off to bed now but I'll notify them - although I guess this could be one person. Doug Weller (talk) 22:08, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I was also surprised at how fast these users learned our citation markup, even using ref names. Doug Weller (talk) 22:18, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I really am trying to get to bed, but to be fair, it's possible that this is a class, although I've seen no indication that it is. That doesn't make it not spam, and I am of the opinion that although this seems to be an excellent generalist textbook we should be using specialist books for history, paleontology, etc, and I've seen at least one error introduced to an article citing the book. Doug Weller (talk) 22:22, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Turns out this is a class assignment, add material from their textbook to 20 articles. Doug Weller (talk) 06:22, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

And looking further, not only do I think the book is dubious as a source for at least some of the articles, editors are treating dab pages as articles and addding text sourced to this book, are adding a citations to the book at the top of the articles, and further investigation might show other problems. Doug Weller (talk) 06:56, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• I've posted a fairly long message on their talk page, with an emphasis that their professor should set up a course page or contact someone about the school assignment. I've also given an alternate suggestion that they could probably use other sources, since I feel that it's probably most likely that the teacher wants to ensure that they understand the topic and can apply it properly in a real world setting. I think that the textbook choice is incidental, as it's most likely this particular textbook since it's the one they're using in class and as such, the teacher is more aware of the book's content than they would a random source. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:20, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 09:02, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi @Doug Weller, Tokyogirl79, and Joshua Jonathan:-- I'm the professor on this particular assignment, and it's one I've used pretty successfully for several years. I've asked my students to look through their textbook and through other materials we've used in class [World History before 1500], and asked them to make corrections and/or additions to articles related to the materials we're studying. The idea is two-fold. First, it allows them to [hopefully] make a more lasting contribution to people's understanding of history than simply writing a bunch of papers for me that I'll end up throwing out a week after the semester is over. Second, it might prompt a few of them to get more involved in editing on a longer-term basis.

Because this was a semester-long assignment with a due date "by the end of the semester," they are all now (unfortunately) doing this all at once. So, narrow-ish topics, 40 students, 10 or so required edits each--yeah I can understand why it appears spam-like. But they have a limited number of sources for the class, and we've spent an entire semester going through the issue of footnoting, citing sources, etc etc. We also spent time in class "practice-editing" a few articles to ensure they would get it right. WP:RS notes that "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources." So, I've encouraged them to footnote their textbook in order to provide a reliable source. Are they making some mistakes in their editing? Almost certainly. We all did when we started. But I'm not sure it's accurate to say that the textbook is "dubious as a source." It's a peer-reviewed textbook used in hundreds of college classrooms around the U.S. Does it have flaws? Sure. An unreliable source? I don't think so.

To be honest, I've done this same assignment for about three years in different classes, and this is the first time I've encountered an issue. I've been editing for a few years, sometimes intensively, sometimes not. Most of my editing is confined to WP:BEER-related materials, but I also spend time patrolling edits using STiki. All this is by way of saying that I, and they, didn't go into this blindly. But if there's another issue here, I'm open to some guidance. Prof. Mc (talk) 14:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi [User:Prof. Mc|Prof. Mc]] and thanks for responding. Besides the issues of not understanding WP:DAB pages, adding citations at the beginning of paragraphs, etc., there is still the issue of the book. Take for example this edit[47] of our article Black Death. It removed a figure[48]sourced to a specialist book A Pest in the Land: New World Epidemics in a Global Perspective By Suzanne Austin Alchon, University of New Mexico Press, and replaced it with a figure from the textbook. Which source would you prefer? Another problem is that at least in my opinion it's not a good idea to fit a textbook to an article in this way. When sourcing the articles your class is working on, they should be looking for the best academic sources and where there is a dispute showing that dispute in the article. We do have a framework for projects such as yours and can give you guidance and support if you'd like that.Doug Weller (talk) 15:34, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi @Doug Weller:. I appreciate your thoughtful reply. If I'm reading you correctly (and it's early here and I've not yet had my caffeine, so anything is possible), the issue seems not to be so much with the source, then, as it is with the use of the source. I am unable to view the page in the Alchon book to which you have linked, but I absolutely agree with your general point--a recently peer-reviewed textbook should not replace a recently-peer reviewed monograph without some further explanation in the Edit Summary and perhaps on the Talk page. To be honest I hadn't really anticipated this scenario and so neglected to cover that in class. The fault here is entirely mine, not theirs. I'll work with them on this, of course. In terms of a framework, whatever you have would be great. I'd like to use this assignment again next semester with my History of Beer students. Prof. Mc (talk) 15:46, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Well now, a professor, beer, a lack of caffeine, this is all starting to sound eerily familiar. It also sounds like you teach at a funner place than me--all we have is a Special Topics class on Ice Tea. (The drink, not Ice-T the rapper.) Textbooks are frequently tertiary sources, whose use is somewhat deprecated here, and I think that applies to this one as well. That's not to say they should never be used; like primary sources, they should be used "to a lesser extent" than secondary sources. There's more at WP:ANALYSIS. Depending on the level of the class, one could require of one's students that they use secondary sources, as a research component, but given what you said earlier, Prof. Mc, it doesn't seem to be the kind of class where you can easily do that--certainly not if they leave it all for the last week of the semester. (Believe me, I know the feeling.) If I can make a suggestion (purely in my capacity as an old fart), placing the particular assignment earlier in the semester may alleviate some of the problems, here and maybe even in your classroom and the computer lab. Happy grading, and cheers, Drmies (talk) 16:04, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a 100-level class. So a textbook and a bunch of primary sources are pretty much what they have to work with. See the suggestion below. I don't know if I'll have time to go with the sandbox, but that idea suggests some alternate ones that might work. Prof. Mc (talk) 16:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Another student: Emmageorge549 (talk · contribs). They cited the book in previous edits, but started adding unsourced facts today.[49][50] I hope the professor hasn't instructed them to just stop citing the book. KateWishing (talk) 16:09, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

@Prof. Mc I appreciate your efforts in helping these students contribute to wiki. I would like to make a suggestion in order to "de-mess" this. I would like to suggest that you ask your students to edit your "sandbox" instead of the wiki article. The sandbox has the look and feel of a real article so its not any different from editing the real thing. You can create sections for each of your students and they can use their section to do their assignment. Then you can go through their work and move it/insert it into main-space articles. This will have two benefits. Firstly you will be able to review their work at once on the wiki and Secondly they wont cause any mess on the project inadvertently. Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 16:23, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The sandbox is a good idea. I've asked them to stop editing until I can get things straightened out. Thanks for that suggestion. Prof. Mc (talk) 16:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Problem with editor over religious edits

Hi all - I'm having problems with an editor over categories. I'm engaged in a substantial task of putting articles on American religious leaders into state-specific categories. All has gone well up until a few days ago, when Elizium23 (talk · contribs) contacted me to complain that I was putting Roman Catholic bishops into categories for bishops, rather than making individual categories for Roman Catholic bishops by diocese, then making parent categories for Roman Catholic bishops, and then putting those categories in the (grandparent) Bishops categories.

While I see this as useful, it would slow down the work I'm doing, and I feel that categorisation simply as bishops is better for Wikipedia than having them totally uncategorised. After all, if Elizium23 feels that they should be in these subcategories, (as) it is now easier for him to find and add those categories himself, and (b) perhaps he should have already added those categories. Elizium23's messages on my user talk page have been confrontational and threatening - he accused me of laziness (despite the fact that I have been categorising several hundred articles during this task, and he could easily have added any extra categories he wanted himself), and threatened to revert the work I have been doing. This is something which he has begun to do, despite being warned of the disruptiveness of this silliness.

As an admin, I can't get personally involved in fixing this mess, so I'd like to ask some neutral admins to have a look at it if possible. Thanks, Grutness...wha? 23:57, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

If anything, having bishops in state-specific categories should make it easier for Elizium23 to further subdivide them. Reverting instead of improving, that is lazy. Not justified IMO.-- Elmidae 07:48, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

How about instead of two people making separate passes through thousands of articles, one editor makes one pass and does it right the first time? Or while making his pass and met with objections, that editor stops to discuss what is best. Or even, the editor with mass changes in mind proposes it publicly first, and hammers out WP:CONSENSUS on the best course of action. Is that too much to ask? Elizium23 (talk) 18:21, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Many hands make light work. Keri (talk) 18:44, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Also, Elizium23, you yourself admitted that there are unresolved issues with some bishop categorisation. I don't know enough about RC church structure to know when those issues apply. You do. Rather than have me incorrectly categorise while trying to deal with a larger and more overarching task, why don't you do that part of the task? As far as WP:CON is concerned, all I am doing is extending work already started by other editors - state categories for religious leaders already existed for about half a dozen states and no-one had been complaining about them. As such, similar categories for the remaining states seemed logical and uncontroversial. Given that bishops are religious leaders, putting them in such categories makes perfect sense, and if they are uncategorised as bishops then leaving them uncategorised as bishops is not doing anything that WP:CON is needed for, since no change vis a vis their bishop categorisation was being made at all. As regards "separate passes through thousands of articles", I'm the only one making a pass through thousands of articles - you would simply be categorising the several dozen uncategorised bishop articles to add diocese labels where necessary - a much smaller task, and one which can almost certainly be automated. Grutness...wha? 00:09, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support Elizium23, but not most of what he is saying. We need a consenus on this important topic before the categorization continues. Let us consult the religious portal. W oWiTmOvEs 11:26, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I had raised this issue at WT:CATHOLIC, but Grutness decided to shop here too. I am curious, Grutness, what remedies and sanctions against me did you expect to be levied from this board when you took a very small content dispute here? Elizium23 (talk) 17:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

@Elizium23: You are making incorrect accusations. Grutness is not forum shopping. Grutness opened the entry here in response to your behavior on his talkpage and your behavior in reverting his edits adding categories where none previously existed. Grutness only asked for a second opinion from an uninvolved administrator, not any sanctions. You created the talkpage entry at WT:Catholic, and primarily talked about Grutness's behavior, not the disputed content. Grutness only replied briefly to what you had written regarding his behavior, and referred the behavior discussion here. The tiny bit of discussion at at project Catholicism did focus on the content dispute, and did not conflict with the discussion regarding user behavior reported here. --Zfish118 ^⋉talk 21:14, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I propose closing this discussion of user behavior as fruitless. No behavior was truly serious, although perhaps caustic. I would propose resuming the content/categorization discussion at the WT:CATHOLIC instead. --Zfish118 ^⋉talk 21:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

"Month Year" redirects

The user DoctorKubla has turned the month articles from January 1997 to November 2015 into redirects. However, they have not yet been moved to the Portal namespace. An administrator should start moving them with the "Leave a redirect behind" box unchecked and make the Portal pages transclude Template:Current events archive with the first parameter being the year and the second parameter the month. The administrator should also recreate redirects to the year articles (they will be marked as "N" in the user contributions and have a log entry saying "automatically marked revision REVISIONID of page PAGENAME patrolled"). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 04:35, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

It appears this was discussed before redirects were made/changed. Since this was discussed and this can be easily reverted, I don't see any harm done here.

As I mentioned above....Big notice at the top of this page: "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please consider discussing the issue with them on their user talk page." Next time, please discuss this with the user before coming to ANI. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:44, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

IP-jumping editor with an anti-Kurdish bias

This is a rewritten version of something I wrote last night at the talk page of @JzG:. He suggested that I take it to ANI. I wasn't sure if the regulars here need to be spoon-fed diffs or if, on the contrary, I would be met with TLDR comments if I wrote any longer. Please take a look and point out if there is anything you feel is insufficiently clear.

There is a succession of Swiss-based IPs (most starting with 81.62) that have been on a reference removal and prodding spree and has made other edits with what appears to be an anti-Kurdish and anti-Yazidi bias.

• 81.62.0.20 (talk · contribs) (17 Nov.)
• 81.62.114.4 (talk · contribs) (20 Nov.)
• 81.62.94.51 (talk · contribs) (21-22 Nov.)
• 62.202.122.82 (talk · contribs) (22 Nov.)
• 81.62.232.113 (talk · contribs) (24-25 Nov.)
• 81.62.178.125 (talk · contribs) (25 Nov.)
• 81.62.29.36 (talk · contribs) (27 Nov.)
• 81.62.24.156 (talk · contribs) (28 Nov.)
• 81.62.90.64 (talk · contribs) (26-27 Nov.)
• 81.62.160.49 (talk · contribs) (28-29 Nov.)

The IP user is somebody familiar with Wikipedia terminology and notability policy (although quite willing to overlook the blatant notability of a topic if it would get in the way of getting it deleted, as with Khana Qubadi, an 18th-century Kurdish poet, or Taufiq Wahby, a philologist who was also a member of cabinet and senator in Iraq). The user is also familiar with templates.[51][52].

Some of the references and links removed have indeed been dead, as claimed in the edit comments, but some of these appear actually to be online versions of printed sources, such as this one (the journal article can probably still be located even if the link happens to be dead). This removed links to articles in the online edition of the Encyclopaedia Iranica. While the EI appears to have changed the article URLs, they can be found through a search of the website (e.g. [53]). In general, substitutes for these links are less likely to be found once they are hidden away in the article history and their removal is likely to prejudice the admin dealing with the page at the end of the prod period.

I suspect that Lrednuas Senoroc (talk · contribs) (28 Nov.-) may be the same user. This user has started an article on Kurdish terrorism (recently at AfD) and nominated Kurdish mythology for deletion. He also edited Khana Qubadi, previously prodded by 81.62.90.64 (talk · contribs), just after I deprodded the page.

All in all, I find it difficult to "AGF" in this case. I have deprodded a few articles. @PanchoS:, who has noticed the same pattern (as he pointed out at User talk:JzG#Kurdish terrorism), has deprodded a large number as claiming notability and at least needing a proper discussion.

I will notify Lrednuas Senoroc (talk · contribs) but will ignore the talk pages of the IPs, as they don't appear to have been re-used once the user has rotated to a new one. --Hegvald (talk) 11:16, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The user Hegvald starts this with a personal attack even in the section title, generally a sign of somebody that has no facts and that the discussion is emotional.

Hegvald complains that I attempted to do some much needed quality control and cleanup after I spotted a walled garden of non-notable articles, all created by the same user. The user has created a walled garden of hundreds of articles on non-notable subjects. These include bloggers, translators, "writers" whose output consist of a few nationalist pamphlets, whose only reference is a token article written by the subject himself about himself! If these articles would have been in a less obscure area, they would have been deleted within 5 minutes! And all the links I removed with the edit summary "dead links" were dead links, not just "some" (the rest were not in accordance with the WP:EL policy). To be able to also edit at 'Articles for Deletion', I had to create an user account. I was not only doing some work in much needed quality control, as Hegvald noticed, but also expanding articles (Kurdish women, kurds in germany,...) and creating articles (on the Kurd Banaz Mahmod).

The real issue, I suspect, is that he didn't like that I wrote articles on Banaz Mahmod and about Du'a Khalil Aswad. The same user who spammed wikipedia with this walled garden of non notable articles is the same user who repeatedly deleted every mention of the Murder of Du'a Khalil Aswad and other victims in the kurdish women article. That is the real issue, these same users who spam wikipedia would like to bury every memory of these victims in wikipedia, exactly like they buried the poor Yazidi woman Du'a Khalil Aswad, together with a dead dog after she was stoned and after she was dragged trough the streets! Because I created the article about the Kurd Banaz Mahmod and wrote about the Yazidi Du'a Khalil Aswad, I must be anti-Kurdish and anti-Yazidi, out of a perverse logic that certain aspects of certain communities should not be written about, and this user who spammed wikipedia, and censors every mention of these Kurdish and Yazidi victims, is of course just a bona fide Kurdish nationalist. --Lrednuas Senoroc (talk) 12:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Who is the user you are talking about? Are you talking about @Vekoler: who appears to have started several of the articles you are trying to have deleted? You should have informed him of the fact that you were nominating them for deletion, but you never did. In either case, I don't see anything wrong in starting many articles in a particular topic area of one's interest, in this case Kurdish writers. Other Wikipedia users create huge numbers of articles on professional wrestlers or footballers. Regrettably, far fewer people around here are able and willing to write about Kurdish literature and scholarship.

As for the dead links, they were indeed dead, but many referred to sources that may have been located in other ways. That was the case with both Encyclopaedia Iranica articles mentioned by me above. The articles are still live; they just changed the URLs. Some other may have been found at archive.org, but only when one knows what to look for. And as I said, some were printed publications, such as articles in the International Journal of Kurdish Studies. In those cases, having a link is nice, but it is perfectly fine if they can be located in print in a library. --Hegvald (talk) 13:48, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Oops, I forgot the issue of honour killings. No, there is nothing wrong with mentioning this (although it should probably be mentioned here and in passing that it is common among many other populations in the Near East and elsewhere).

What struck me was that in all your expanding of articles such as Kurds in Germany, Kurds in Sweden, Kurdish women, this was the only thing you were interested in writing about.[54][55][56] Surely there must be other aspects of these topics worthy of interest and expansion? --Hegvald (talk) 13:58, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it is Vekoler. You may believe that everything merits a wikipedia article, but it is not the consensus on wikipedia, otherwise we wouldn't have the notability policy and the AFD and PROD processes. Clearly, many of these articles do not meet the notability policy and wouldn't have survived that long in less obscure areas of wikipedia.

About the dead links, where is the policy how to deal with them? If I tag the dead links, or if they are already tagged, how long does one need to wait until they can be removed? What about dead links in the External links section? Should they not be cleaned up? Many of these articles are BLP articles, and everything unsourced or sourced to dead links in BLP articles should be removed immediately and without discussion. --Lrednuas Senoroc (talk) 14:52, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

In the future, I will rather tag the dead links when they are used for reference. Except when it goes against WP:BLP or WP:USI, the BLP policy says all contentious information should be removed immediately if it is unsourced. --Lrednuas Senoroc (talk) 15:15, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Your familiarity with WP:TLAs makes it plain that you are not actually a new user. What was your previous account, please? Guy (Help!) 15:26, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Srednuas Lenoroc might be entirely innocent here, but someone should investigate whether there is any relationship (perhaps an attempt at imitation by Lrednuas Senoroc)? Cordless Larry (talk) 15:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I am not Sredunas and there is already a discussion on his talkpage. To figure out TLAs one does not need to have a registered account on the english wikipedia. In any case, to protect their privacy, editors who have edited while logged out are never required to disclose their usernames (see also clean start). --Lrednuas Senoroc (talk) 15:57, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Anyone that would like to associate my contribution to WP somehow the work of "Lrednuas Senoroc" has "idiot on the mind". I am not, have never been and have no intention of getting involved in this matter. I have had a pleasant enough experience on WP so far and would wish for it to continue so if you are the person that has orchestrated this diversion then do at least me the favor and bugger off. I would like to bring up that I have no talk page. According to well expressed comments in WP, no one "owns" a talk page yet when there are changes to that talk page the person having that user name is notified of such changes. So please never mention comments made on "that" page as "my talkpage". The use of the word "my" is misleading and wrong. The use of the word "that" would be proper use and grammar.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 23:56, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious to me that Lrednuas Senoroc is an attempt at an impersonation account of Srednuas Lenoroc, since Srednuas Lenoroc is Coronel (Colonel?) Saunders spelled backwards, while Lrednuas Senoroc is nonsense. Blackmane (talk) 03:14, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Srednuas Lenoroc, I was not trying to associate your contributions with those of Lrednuas Senoroc. I was suggesting that Lrednuas Senoroc's username was an attempt to impersonate you. It seems that an admin agrees and has blocked the account. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:45, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and it is perfectly acceptable for editors to refer to "your" user talk page. See Wikipedia:User pages#Terminology and page locations on this. "Your" in this sense does not imply ownership, as that page makes clear, but means associated with you. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:02, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Then I hope that this discussion can be limited to this or another more appropriate page as notifying me about someone having a similar username is not a concern of mine and as maliciousness goes, I am not aware enough about WP as to where it is appropriate or that I wish to become involved in that discussion. I do not need to be notified of user being investigated even on an informal level merely because of their username. My record of contributions is readily available for review. My IP address can also be traced. I see absolutely no reason why I needed to be contacted in this matter. As my grandmother says in the most concise translation, why with two when one will do. I am not into investigating people; that is not the role have I taken at WP--I leave that to others.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 21:44, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I linked to your account to demonstrate the similarity. You can always ignore this page if the issue being discussed does not concern you and you have not been summoned here. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:02, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Repeated unfounded accusations by User:Dalamani

User:Dalamani has continued with their behaviour despite adequate warning and despite stating that they would cease. They made a baseless accusation of sockpuppetry here, for which I gave them what I thought was quite a mild warning ([57]). They responded by accusing me of harassment ([58], [59]). User:Drmies also pointed out the error of their ways ([60]) and they stated they would cease but went on to make a pretty clear insinuation of meatpuppetry (also baseless, of course) in the same AfD ([61]). Dalamani has previous for this sort of thing, in their interactions with another editor ([62], [63]). Their behaviour is unacceptable and I don't see any useful editing coming from that account. There's no point in me warning them again, as it will just result in further accusations of 'harassment', and frankly I don't see that further warnings would be an adequate or worthwhile response. --Michig (talk) 11:55, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Well as I am a new editor you are expected to assume good faith, which you have not. From the first attempt to edit the page (which I admitted that I made errors on being new to the process) I have felt as though these editors are being exclusionary and acting like Wikipedia is their own private club. I never explicitly accused anyone of sockpuppetry, despite previously being accused of having an agenda or ulterior motive to nominating the article for deletion. As for accusations of "meatpuppetry", is user Michig denying that the next user to support their position on the AFD page, Wwwhatsup does not have Michigs username on their talk page, indicating a relationship of some sort? I find it curious that an editor that obviously has a Wikipedia connection with another editor suddenly appears on an AFD page enthusiastically supporting their position. Coincidence? Possibly, but curious nonetheless and its obviously something that Michig has taken personal exception to. I find the behaviour of Michig to be confrontational and arrogant and frankly bullying. If you need to drag out a very old and irrelevant incident with another Wikipedia bully to bolster your case it doesnt bode well. Ban me if thats what will make Wikipedia a better place for bullies but it wont do anything to encourage new editors to "be bold". Im considering doing an open letter to Wikpedia on my userpage in the style of Paolo.dL. Dalamani (talk) 12:12, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Predictably, another accusation, now of bullying, for notifying them of this discussion ([64]). --Michig (talk) 12:18, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Look Michig, Im not interested in you so please just stop with the harassment. There are a lot of Wikipedia policies that Im reading up on and it is very illuminating. Id suggest you do the same. No need for further discussion, lets leave this to arbitration. Dalamani (talk) 12:37, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Leaving repeated and unwanted messages on a users Talk page, as you have done, is just one of the many Wikipedia policies that I believe has been breached here. I REPEAT, as a new user you should have assumed good faith, not criticised a new users motivation for deciding to nominate a particular article for deletion. You did not and this is where it has led. I believe some introspection is required here on your part regardless of the outcomes of your pre-emptive actions (yes, I told Michig I would report them for harassment if it continued just prior to this being actioned) Dalamani (talk) 13:00, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Assuming good faith does not imply simply ignoring missteps like baseless accusations. As DrMies stated, you are not being harrassed, you are being addressed as a Wikipedia user who is expected to play by the rules. Just like anybody else. Kleuske (talk) 13:35, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Yet another accusation with no basis in fact. I have only made two edits at Dalamani's talk page. One perfectly justified warning for making false and bad faith accusations of sockpuppetry and one courtesy notification of this discussion, of which I was required to inform them. In contrast, Dalamani has made 5 edits to my talk page even continuing after I made it clear I wasn't interested. It's quite clear who the harrasment is coming from. --Michig (talk) 16:17, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

So it is OK for administrators to imply ulterior motives on a new users attempts to edit wikipedia, but not for a new user to defend themselves and point out that there appear to be conflicts of interest in their own agenda? I see Kleuske and Drmies are known to each other as can be discerned from Klueske's Talk page. This is getting more interesting by the minute! Dalamani (talk) 13:44, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Dalamani, these days I am first and foremost Dr.K.'s sock. I see you've been doing some research into my editing behavior--you may have noticed that I have made some 45,000 edits to user talk pages not including mine, only three of which on Kleuske's page. Kleuske, this is not to say you're not special to me--you are, of course, and I will do my best to make it up to you. Besides, I am honored to be suspected as being in cahoots with you. Also, Dalamani, you are not being harassed. Au contraire--which I find reflected in older comments like this and this, besides in this treatment of Michig. If we're going to have a bullying task force, as some users seem to want, don't be surprised if all this boomerangs back on you. Drmies (talk) 15:33, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

So a new 43 edit account says silly stuff about an 11 year / 56K edit / administrator ... and the response is to open an ANI thread?? (complete with canvassing). The far better choice would be to ignore it per User:Heimstern/Ignoring incivility. NE Ent 18:22, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Disagree. That very essay mentions that when incivility consistently comes from a new editor, then that account may amount to little more than a troll, and it should be taken more seriously. And while we don't bite newcomers and assume good faith, IIRC, WP:BITE itself (or some related page) mentions that when a "newcomer" is the one invoking it, then it probably doesn't apply as they simply aren't enough of a "clueless" newcomer if they can cite that policy. In this case, they cited WP:AGF with a similar argument, "I'm a newcomer so here's the exact policy I know precisely about that says you should put up with my nonsense". No. LjL (talk) 18:34, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

No, the response was to warn them about their behaviour. When they wouldn't let it lie I did try ignoring it, and for a short while it looked like they were going to stop, but it carried on and spread to accusations against another editor. I only informed Drmies as he had already intervened on my talk page to reason with Dalamani. I don't think accusing me of canvassing is either helpful or justified. --Michig (talk) 18:59, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

SO what Im reading here is that if you read up on Wikipedia policies you must not be a 'real' newcomer but a troll, and that long term editors have more rights than new Wikipedia editors. Im sure I read policies about both last night when I read up on it. Now if Michig continues to make assertions about me I will continue to defend against those assertions. Civility is a two way street. Im happy enough to let this go, it hardly rates as an important issue in my life, but if everytime I come onto Wikipedia I have to deal with this crap I will go well above petty editors here and make a significant noise about this treatment. Dalamani (talk) 01:54, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, you could interpret in that way. But if you let folks who think that any editor who clicks three times per three steps is a troll rather than simply a literate individual capable of RTFM get ya down you're experience on Wikipedia isn't going to be pleasant. Or particularly long, either. We don't really have a civility policy as explained at WP:Civility meme (sorry). You don't actually have to deal with it, just ignore it per WP:Other duck. In any event, you really can't make significant noise; there's already so much wiki-noise it's kind of like screaming in a hurricane. NE Ent 02:15, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed NE Ent, it seems like screaming in a hurricane, however I notice that the most recent editor to take exception with my AFD, Duffbeerforme, is also connected to Drmies. Now out of the hundreds of thousands of editors on Wikipedia it is indeed a remarkable thing that these people just coincidentally come together on this one AFD and to personally attack me? Duffbeerforme has made another personal comment on the AFD page - "Disruptive pointy nomination from someone not here for the right reason". What is the right reason? To act like a voting block and try to cajole and intimidate new editors and call their motivations into question while having questionable moivations themselves? I notice that there are still a lot of unsourced claims on the Ezekial Ox page. The hurrican blows on... Dalamani (talk) 04:51, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Dalamani, you should really stop claiming I'm connected to this or that person. Duffbeerforme is not one of my socks (yet). Nor am I a fan of this Ox person, who I had never heard of before. I'm also not Australian. Or a secret lover of oxen. *sigh* I've made a few edits here and met a few people. You could consider there's another option. Obviously, the first is that if a few people say you're wrong about something, they've orchestrated it because they are "connected". Or, maybe, you're just wrong... No, it's much easier to claim you're being bullied. Wait--bullied? by oxen lovers? Coincidence? Drmies (talk) 06:18, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

So you deny that you know both Duffbeerforme and Kleuske? OK right. You go through my editing history looking for dirt, dont be surprised if others do the same. Ill admit Ive been wrong about one thing, and that is assuming that all Wikipedia editors and administrators are sincere people who dont act like they own the playground. Mea culpa on that one ok! Continue to question my motivations and I will continue to call yours into question. After all, just how much evidence is required when examining claims of meatpuppetry? Dalamani (talk) 06:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

As much as I would like to know Drmies personally, we have never met. Like him, i would be honored to be "in cahoots", but we're not. We merely share similar interests and (apparantly) a mutual respect. Kleuske (talk) 12:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

We're truly at a pretty low level here. I'm accused of being in cahoots with someone, I deny that, and then I am made out to claim I didn't "know" these editors. Dalamani, you are not presenting yourself as very competent here, and I can't put it more mildly than that. Kleuske, you are rising fast on the list of likely people to get invited to my Sinterklaas party, as is Duffbeerforme, whom I don't know from Adam but who sounds smart enough to hang out with. Drmies (talk) 21:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Der Statistiker and Paris-based articles.

Der Statistiker (and his www.skyscrapercity.com allies [65]) has, in all impunity to date, been disrupting editing to Paris-based articles since years now, and this is I-don't-know-how-many-th'd case opened against him [66][67][68][69][70], and many contributors, including administrator jmabel[71], expressed overwhelming support for a topic ban over a year ago [72].

Der Statistiker is particularly good at WP:GAMEing Wikipedia. Wikipedia's default 'assume good faith' is easy to abuse: for one example, he repeatedly creates false claims that look plausible on the surface so that, if an administrator takes only a quick look, they will seem legitimate. He then directs complaints to precisely those administrators who have taken his claims at face value in the past [73]. Concerning that last diff/complaint: I made my first real edits to the article (and I had announced my intentions on the talk-page well before) in a year on November 11 [74], and Der Statistiker, after a total absence of a year from the article, came a week after [75].

But that in itself was not really a problem at that point, until Der Statistiker replaced recently-edited (by SiefkinDR) article-relevent data with out-of-context data [76], and I edited that back into context (without removing anything)[77]: Der Statistiker reverted this with another false accusation (calling it 'starting a revert war') and, again, threatening admin intervention [78]. Again there was no rationale for this, even after SiefkinDR's protesting questioning [79], only an 'answer-sounding' non-sequitur...

...because the rationale for that, and everything from there on, was pure WP:POINT disruption: one of the skyscraper-forum members (who by now has been around long enough to be considered a real wikipedian), Minato ku[80] first edit on wikipedia in months is to remove a just-edited Paris-events paragraph [81], and the same day, reverts a just-edited entire section to a state last edited by Der Statistiker over a year before (under the edit summary 'reorganising')[82], and Der Statistiker's response to this was only to update Minato ku's outdated revert himself, and, even after voiced opposition, re-insert the removed content under a misleading edit summary [83]. The entire 'what happened' is on the Paris talk page. Der Statistiker and Minato ku have worked as a 'team' since around 2007, as made obvious in the Economy of Paris article (the scene of his 'bigger than thou' battles with other big-city articles) and talk page.

While writing this, yet another skyscrapercity.com-er, Clouchicloucha[84], just showed up to 'vote support' Der Statistiker and Minato ku.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, but I can provide more data if it is needed. Please do check up on my record, and any questions are welcome. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 21:04, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree completely with Promenader. Der Statistiker has a very long history of problematic behaviour surrounding the Paris article. I still remember his trolling comments when I promoted the article to GA, disgusting. He has shown time and time again he canvasses support from offwiki as evidenced by the recent Clouch "support", gaming the system. Based on what Jmabel told him before I strongly suggest we topic ban this editor from Paris articles.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:12, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Sigh... Here the only person I see contacting people off-wiki is ThePromenader, who, in the admission of Jmabel himself, contacted Jmabel last week (see [85]), despite the fact that there is no trace of any message by ThePromenader in Jmabel's talk page history ([86]). So we have an obvious case of off-wiki contact there, from someone who accuses other editors of "gaming" the system. And I suspect User:Clouchicloucha is an account created by ThePromenader himself to discredit me by writing what looks like awkward messages of support in the talk page right in time for ThePromenader to open his complaint against me here. Like how timely and convenient! Der Statistiker (talk) 22:06, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I did contact Jmabel off-wiki (an admin here, by the way, not an off-wiki forum member), for advice and to intervene, which he did, and he said as much [87]. The only difference is that now he doesn't have his talk-page full of complaints.

The User:Clouchicloucha accusation is just lame. Both Der Statistiker and Minato ku know full well who they are. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 22:50, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with a user asking me (or anyone else) off-wiki to take a look at what's going on with an article and my openly indicating that I did so. If you think something about this was inappropriate, please say precisely what it was. If you don't, then stop making insinuations. - Jmabel | Talk 00:18, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Again!! The problem came from a badly written transportation section full of errors that did not bother anybody until I changed it to put more information (accurate information). I think this bothers ThePromenader because it does not follow the plan he wants. In his few edits of the transportation section prior to my edit he kept the numerous errors that were there. Does he really care about the quality and accuracy of the information in the Paris article?
I don't understand why this change of the transportation section has created such noise. No content was deleted; quite the opposite, information was added.
I don't get the war between Der Statistiker and ThePromenader and I'm tired of being used as a pretext for this war (find another scapegoat). I want a good wikipedia article about Paris at the level of New York City article. Nowadays Paris article is more like a tourist guide focused on history (more like the history of anecdotal events rather than a history of the development of the city) and stereotypes. You just need to compare Paris' article with London's article to see this problem. The quality of the information in the Paris article should be the goal of everybody rather than this stupid war of ego. Minato ku (talk) 22:13, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

For both comments above, I'll let the Paris talk page speak for itself. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 22:50, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

But about the 'scapegoat' issue: the article quality concerns you mention here is what the article talk page is for. If you see a problem, open a discussion, and you may find people even helping you. You and Statistiker have overlapping goals (showing Paris as the most modern, etc., city possible), but his example of "impose X (in total disregard for other contributors); use 'tactics' to make it stick" is an extremely bad one to follow; Wikipedia is a collaborative project based on cooperative reasoning, not 'tag-team tactics' (against (an)other contributor(s)), so if you're going to 'team up' with the latter, it's going to turn around to bite you in the end. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 06:26, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to topic ban Der Statistiker from Paris-related articles

As per above, there has been clear evidence that Der Statistiker is gaming the system and causing disruption of a large scale with Paris-related articles. ThePromenader has already supplied the diffs above and previous evidence as well as another proposal to topic ban Der Statistiker from Paris-related articles last year. The evidence is overwhelming and the disruption caused seems to go at no end. He has also been cautioned about meatpuppetry and despite the warnings, he is clearly doing it again. I propose that Der Statistiker be topic banned indefinitely (provisionally) from Paris-related articles, although it might be more suitable if an admin determines the length. JAGUAR  14:57, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support Long time coming, should have been topic banned last time. I'd suggest a permanent ban as he has a habit of returning after a year or two and causing trouble.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:11, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support. There has been too much disruption at the Paris article and several editors have been forced away because of the behaviours exhibited there; this needs to end. - SchroCat (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support. The foremost challenge when editing Paris articles should be article quality, not Der Statistiker. This has gone on for too many years already. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 18:01, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

The is no "clear evidence". There is insinuations from always the same user, ThePromenader, who apparently thinks the more something is repeated the more people will believe it. It reminds me a lot of Saddam and weapons of mass destructions in 2003. None of the diffs above prove anything. This wouldn't stand a chance in a regular court of justice.

As for "disruption", here the one who creates the most troubles in this article is ThePromenader, as is obvious with repeated complaints on this noticeboard despite the fact that User:Future Perfect at Sunrise asked all editors from the Paris article to stop doing so, and with ThePromenader's aggressive behavior in the Paris talk page and the history of the Paris article (for example here accusing another editor of "POV creep", or here rewriting Minato ku's edit from just a few hours before, and in the process introducing various errors such as a dot after "daily" instead of a comma, or repeating "257 stops and 587 km (365 mi) of rails" twice in the same sentence; isn't that the very definition of disruption?). Der Statistiker (talk) 18:24, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out, fixed. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 18:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't see what Der Statisker has done wrong. He is bringing useful information in the article. I find rather funny to see ThePromenader saying Der Statistiker is disrupting the article because since I am a member here I found ThePromenader much more of a problem in this article concerning the quality of the article's content. Also I find strange that SchroCat and Dr. Blofeld suddenly found this complaint here that is not mentioned anywhere in the talk page of Paris. Minato ku (talk) 19:10, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support The evidence is clear, and this has been going on far too long. A waste of everyone's time. Aymatth2 (talk) 19:17, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: While there's certainly disruption here that may be in need of admin intervention, I'm not convinced a unilateral ban of Der Statistiker is the right way to go. Last year when I intervened as an admin in this conflict, my impression was clearly that of an it-takes-two-to-tango situation: There are two parties with equally strong POV perspectives, Statistiker and Promenader, who are both backed up by their respective tag teams, are both equally allergic to each other's presence, and both probably suffer from "m:Megalomaniacal point of view" to an equal extent, insofar as they both seem quite unable to realize that their own POV is just that, a point of view like others. The article was quiet for a year as long as both of them were away, it exploded again within a matter of days as soon as the two of them were back. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:18, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Again, that is what it may look like on the surface (according to statistiker's complaints to you), but, if you look further, namely at the diffs I provided above concerning the complaint to you (and everything else, for that matter), that's not the case. I don't see where the POV accusation comes from, nor the 'tag-team' one: just because article contributors find themselves having to deal with statistiker's behaviour doesn't make them a 'team' pushing a POV. And even then, it was article contributors opposing one contributor and others summoned off-wiki... I don't see how it is possible to overlook that. When this happened two years ago, I only became aware of it after it was already in full swing, so I'm hardly any 'ringleader' in this. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 15:22, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

This is repetition, but concerning 'just me', statistiker had been gone over a year when I announced [88] that I was available for editing (and would be editing soon) just to be sure, and it was another month before I made my first edit to the article [89]. Statistiker showed up one week later [90], and for everything after that, I refer to you to the Paris talk page. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 15:41, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support:Der Statistiker has consistently been rude, sarcastic and aggressive, attacking and insulting any editor who disagrees with him. He makes it very hard to work on this article. SiefkinDR (talk) 17:06, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. The biggest disruption on Paris has come from Promenader. If anyone is to be topic banned it is he. It certainly does not help when his friends dr blo and schrocat add to the disruption. Their POV pushing has been going on forever at Paris. Caden ^cool 18:52, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence of that, then? JAGUAR  20:13, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

All editors who have had long-time involvement in either of the tag-teams mentioned, as well as their habitual wikifriends and wikifoes, need to lay off this discussion; their !votes here are unhelpful and unwelcome. (Caden, that certainly applies to you just as much as anybody, given your long-standing feuds with Blofield and friends.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:50, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Note to the admins

ThePromenader already asked for my topic-ban from the Paris-related article ([91]) but his request was suspended by admin Future Perfect at Sunrise who set the following rule: [92]

" from this moment on, the talkpage of the Paris article (as well as all related discussions elsewhere, edit summaries etc.) are under a strict, no-exceptions, "comment on content, not on contributor" rule. You can all continue to discuss what content should be in the Paris article, but until further notice, no contributor with a prior significant involvement on the Paris discussions is allowed, in any context, to engage in any negative remarks about any of the others. This includes, in addition to the usual forms of incivility and personal attacks: any complaints or accusations of wrongdoing, speculations about the other person's motivations or POV agendas, reminders about (real or alleged) past misbehaviour or allusions to such, talk about somebody's behaviour off-wiki, ad-hominem arguments about somebody's lack of qualifications or of editing merits, "tu-quoque"-types of responses to accusations from others. Anybody who engages in any such behaviour, on either side, will be blocked, immediately, without further warning, for substantial periods of time."

After nearly a year without editing the Paris article (in a large measure due precisely to previous witch-hunting by ThePromenader, which doesn't really induce people to spend time to work on this or other articles... I note that the French editors who used to work on that article are all gone now), I finally made my first edit in almost a year in this article on November 19, 2015 ([93]). Almost immediately, and despite the fact that I had had no contact or interaction with ThePromenader in almost a year, ThePromenader:

a- accused me of "POV creep" ([94])

b- then opened this new complaint against me with for the most part with the same old recycled paranoid and unsubstantiated stuff as last year

If words have a meaning, a- and b- both breach the rule set by Future Perfect at Sunrise for this article. I find it unfair that I have to defend myself against someone who breaches rules and harasses me within 24 hours of my 1st edit to this article in a year. Der Statistiker (talk) 22:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Der Statistiker has been bringing out this one-time 'ruling' every time his behaviour is questioned since... a year now, and seems to think that it's an excuse to act in all impunity (because people aren't 'allowed' to complain about his behaviour). A look at the Paris talk page will show this clearly enough, but I can provide diffs if needed. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 22:59, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Again, distorted presentation of facts... I haven't made a single edit in the Paris (or Paris-related) article between November 30, 2014 ([95]) and November 19, 2015 ([96]), i.e. almost an entire year. Yet you somehow imply that during this one year when I have not been editing the article my "behavior" has been "questioned" and I have brought out this rule "every time"... in a year when I haven't even edited this article. Like... right. Der Statistiker (talk) 23:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Thus the '...' in my reply. Before, after, here, like a day never passed inbetween. Shall I provide examples? THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 17:15, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Looks to me like it's high time for an interaction ban. It's pretty clear that these two editors will argue forever. —Steve Summit (talk) 21:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Not like before. I actually regret leaving my last comment, there was no need to. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 21:45, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Harassment by User ScrapIronIV

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User ScrapIronIV is following my goodfaith edits at WP and reverting me; I believe by looking at my contributions list. And to extent bragging about it on his talk page. I would appreciate it if you would ask him/her to stand down. Thanks! --Kevin Murray (talk) 22:48, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Kevin Murray, while removing tags makes the article look "cleaner" it does nothing to improve the actual quality of the article and only hides problems. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 22:59, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Neil, actually the tags under dispute were old and inappropriately applied to the page. But I'm not asking to redress that issue. I'm asking that that user ScrapIronIV not follow me around WP making subjective judgement calls on my edits. Please read the comments at his/her talk page, which indicate animosity etc. --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:11, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I qoute from the WP: HOUND section. "Many users track other users' edits ...this should always be done carefully, and with good cause, to avoid raising the suspicion that an editor's contributions are being followed to cause them distress, or out of revenge for a perceived slight." I think that this situaltion pretty clearly crosses the line. --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:15, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict):I admit it; I did it! I restored a maintenance tag that he removed without correcting the underlying problem here[97], and I corrected a word here[98], and I corrected a similar use of of that same word here[99] - assuming it was this user that was editing while logged out. Otherwise, I changed two of his edits. For that, this user runs crying WP:HOUND on my page, and exacerbates it by coming here. But, then again, he seems to like accusing people who correct his mistakes of hounding him, and threatening them with ANI.[100] Scr★pIron^IV 23:02, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Some cleanup templates should be removed. For example, {{POV}} is only supposed to be on an article if there's a discussion on the talk page. It's not a "badge of shame" to be applied indiscriminately. However, a cleanup template like {{no footnotes}} (diff) should not be removed until the issue is resolved. How are editors supposed to find the articles and fix them when the cleanup tags are removed? That's the entire point of them. I don't know about other people, but I do actively look in the cleanup categories to find articles to improve. On the other hand, it often helps to avoid sarcasm during content disputes. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:16, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

WP policies only require the inclusion of inline citations in four circumstances. The application of the inline citation tag is subjective and I determined that in several cases that it was unnecessary. To say that tags erroneously placed should remain in perpetuity seems unreasonable. --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:22, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Um, no. WP:MINREF is basically part of an essay (i.e. a "suggestion"). WP:V is actually Wikipedia policy (i.e. more of a requirement). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:05, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. And checking to see if more inappropriate removals were done is not hounding. Kevin Murray, you opened this report on the basis of three reverts? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:22, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

But he rapidly escalated this into a personal issue and reverted an edit that had nothing to do with tags or policy, reverted an edit from "utilize" to "use". All I want is for you to ask him/her to backoff from from reverting my future edits. Thanks! --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:34, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, no. If an editor finds an edit of yours they disagree with and then finds more edits that they don't think improve articles, we're not going to impose an interaction ban unless the reverts are constant and obviously spurious. Sorry, you'll have to defend your changes - no shortcuts. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:40, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

ScrapIron's comments such as You may have been here for years, but apparently you haven't learned much. and Now aren't you just... special. ' fall short of the "Editors should treat each other with respect and civility:" expectation of WP:5P4, and Kevin properly references WP:MINREF, so unless an editor can point out which portion of M4 cannon is WP:LIKELY to be challenged, the stupid "I'm too lazy to fix this but I'll whine about it" tag should go. NE Ent 23:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I had never had any interaction with this user prior to today, and ANY editor coming to my page with a chilling threat to take me to AN/I over such minimal nonsense deserves whatever they get afterwards. Come to my page with nice words, and you get treated nicely. Funny how that works. Scr★pIron^IV 23:26, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

@NE Ent: Took all of two seconds: "Rectaflex was the first company to show publicly, the first to produce and the first to sell a penta prism slr camera." --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:31, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Add - ScrapIronIV did not touch M4 cannon. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:33, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Copy/Paste error on my part in my original response; I have corrected it. Scr★pIron^IV 23:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Re: Rectaflex - Of the four conditions requiring inline citations, the only instance under which an inline citation might be required at Rectaflex is "Any statement that you believe is likely to be challenged." The tag was placed (May 2013), and no "challenge" has been made in over two years. Empirically, there was little expectation that there would be a challenge.

Again, no. Page templates are often used in lieu of cluttering up the article with lots of inline tags. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:03, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

OK, notwithstanding my initial error, ScrapIronIV has taken it beyond this with actions and threats is it appropriate for him/her to continue to stalk and revert my edits? --Kevin Murray (talk) 00:12, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure they can look at your Contributions page, and if they see something that legitimately needs being reverted, they can revert it. That's not the same as reverting for no reason except to hound you... LjL (talk) 00:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

If ScrapIronIV is reverting you for reasons that no independent good-faith editor would accept, then report him. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:22, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)WP:MINREF is pretty clear on the subject. How does a vague tag that does not indicate what actually needs to be fixed placed by a person too lazy to actually fix it improve the encyclopedia? NE Ent 00:17, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

This "too lazy" thing is a crock. I notice you were "too lazy" to check over the article for "any statement that you believe is likely to be challenged" before removing the tag and were "too lazy" to find a cite instead of placing a cn tag. I'm sure we can argue this at length but the bottom line is that this report is extremely premature and Kevin needs to defend his editing instead of coming here after three justifiable reverts. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:MINREF is not policy. In any case, it should be read in its entirety, in which it makes it pretty clear that sourcing beyond the "four minimums" is usual, and should generally be expected... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:09, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:V nutshell (and first paragraph) states "This means that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." If someone wants to inline beyond that's great, but adding a tag doesn't actually improve anything. There are about a quarter million {{unreferenced}} template inclusions [101], or about 1 in 20 articles; that actually improves Wikipedia?? NE Ent 04:24, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, they tell the reader the material is unverified and tells us to fix these things. Better than patting ourselves on the back, thinking everything is hunky-dory. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:33, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I recently encountered a similar pattern of behavior with this editor. Some background can be seen at Talk:Danbury, Connecticut#Huge deletions. The editor has removed all trace of it from their talk page though there was tell of it there. There is some discussion at ANI here. I do not wish to make enemies but i also must speak what i know. I had set up a discussion on a controversial topic without taking a position, and i got this reaction and then the actions on my recent contribs list that appeared to be as a result. SageRad (talk) 03:15, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Let's not forget you "bullied" the editor by calling their valid removals (with edit summaries) vandalism and dragging them here. Interested editors should look at the material SageRad was trying to protect and how much was eventually removed. [102] --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:12, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect characterization. I ask others to look at the record and not buy this characterization. NeilN was involved there and had a similar defense of the editor in question there as here. I could have remained silent here but I chose to speak. There is a pattern of uncivil behavior here. Misuse of the word "bullied" here too. SageRad (talk) 10:32, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

For my own sake, this is the last I will say of this here. For @SageRad:, I never touched a single one of your edits, but I did remove a ton of cruft from a page that you feel some sense of proprietorship over. It was a justified removal, and the fact that you took it as some sort of personal attack says more about you than it does about me. I archived that discussion - that is not "removing all trace" as described.

As far as the subject of this original accusation here, I made two edits to Kevin Murray's contributions. I made a third edit to an IP's contribution, which may or may not have been this user. Before the third was complete, I received a threat to take me here for hounding. I made no further edits to any of this user's contributions, yet here I am on the noticeboards. At what point is it acceptable to say that I had "taken it beyond this with actions and threats"?[103] I replied on my talk page - to an uncivil threat with an appropriate response.

I will never respond positively to threats of being taken - inappropriately - here to the noticeboards. That is bullying behavior. My edits speak for themselves, I leave appropriate summaries, and - while I am not always right - they are neither "vandalism" nor some form of personal vengeance. If I have something to say, I'll say it. But apart from something truly egregious, I don't drag editors here. If Kevin Murray wanted to actually talk about why I restored a tag, or why I - among others - believed that one word was preferable to another, then discussion should be held on article talk pages - not with posts on a user's page threatening "further edits in reversion of my work at WP will be reported on the Admin Noticeboard" - after two minor revisions. 'Nuff said. Scr★pIron^IV 14:42, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

From my experience, talking on your use page didn't help to solve the problem but only gave more indication of a pattern of uncivil behavior. This was your very first interaction with me: "I know you and your new buddy have become very close since your mutual backscratching sessions on his talk page, but you can take your POV pushing elsewhere." SageRad (talk) 15:05, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

ScrapIronIV, I'm not looking for any type of retribution, and through the noticeboard I have learned more about the current WP processes. I have respect for Neil as an experienced and up-to-date Admin. I also have respect for you as a diligent and energetic defender of WP. We differ on vision, but clearly you are passionate about the best interest of WP. We also both have some combative aspects to our styles, and there is good and bad to that. In retrospect I do see how you felt it was appropriate to look over my shoulder. Because, as the guidelines are written, I technically should not have removed the tags you replaced. That being said, I'd prefer to see a process where tags expire if not acted upon, but that policy is not in place, and I don't see this as the forum to discuss that issue. I apologize for accusing you of improper action, though we both would have been better off talking first. Perhaps we can agree to shake hands and walk away from this benefiting a bit from understanding varying points of view. My very best regards and happy holidays to all. Thank you to all that have shared their wisdom here! --Kevin Murray (talk) 18:41, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Rckhupmang

• Rckhupmang (talk · contribs)

I just reported this at AIV, where it was deleted with the advice to take it here. Longterm creation and re-creation of articles on non notable subjects, ignoring numerous warnings, especially in relation to removal of speedy templates. Apparent COI and promotional intent, with an eponymous article created several times. No effort to communicate with other editors, and I'm wondering if it's also a WP:COMPETENCE issue, perhaps foreign language. The disruptions far outweigh constructive intent here. 2601:188:0:ABE6:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 05:13, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

It looks like Rck has been edit warring to remove your speedy deletion tag at United Zo Organization Kentucky FC. I count four removals, but some of them are bizarre, such as blanking the entire page and then restoring almost the entirety of the page except the speedy deletion tag. I don't really know what to say about that except that you may be right about competence. And on Pau Sian Khual, he's removed the speedy tag twice already: first time, second time. He also removed a BLPPROD after adding a YouTube video in this edit on Kham En Thang. Now, I'm the first to say that YouTube can be a reliable source, but I'm not so sure this counts. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:03, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Larry Stroman and Tony Harris (artist) articles

As a precautionary measure, I wanted to advise about two articles (Larry Stroman and Tony Harris (artist)) which contained possible violations of Wikipedia:Libel. I removed the statements from Stroman here and Harris here.

As I posted at Talk:Larry Stroman#Lack of verification by citation and Wikipedia:Libel, the citation given for the allegation against Stroman made no specific mention of him, therefore it does not support the statement.

The Harris article used a loaded legal term but supplied no citation at all.

I don't believe Administrator action is needed at this time but I wanted to be proactive in case the material is re-added to either article.

Mtminchi08 (talk) 07:24, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

History merge needed

Can someone perform a history merge on Royalty (Chris Brown album) and Draft:Royalty (Chris Brown album) (2nd version) please? I wasn't sure where to request such a merge, thanks. Azealia911 _talk 09:26, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

See WP:RFHM aka Wikipedia:Requests for history merge. Sometimes it's actually as simple as that. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:39, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Professor JR on political articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Professor JR (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), a long-time editor claiming to be a former professor of American studies and history, "senior…government official", etc., returned to the project in early 2015 under a new account name and quickly amassed an impressive record of behavioral transgressions. By my review he got 20 cautions on his talk page from 14 different editors since June 2015, and innumerable pleas and rebukes on article talk pages.

He seems to edit constructively in other topic areas, but nearly all of his edits to political articles involve repeated attempts to include disputed content that disparages Hillary Clinton. The three primary behavior problems are: (1) persistent edit warring American political articles relating to the 2016 presidential election (all of which are, nominally, under discretionary sanctions), (2) a stated and demonstrated refusal to participate in consensus discussions, and (3) flinging accusations of bad faith against other editors. There are also POV issues, misleading edit summaries, and other wikigaming.The talk page comments I found (including two "final warnings" by me):

Warnings:

• [104] (3RR warning)
• [105] (unexplained deletion of content)
• [106] (civility)
• [107] (personal attacks)
• [108] (edit warring)
• [109] (3RR warning)
• [110] (3RR warning)
• [111] (personal attacks)
• [112] (3RR warning)
• [113] (edit warring - two notices from me)
• [114] (edit warring, not participating in discussion)
• [115] (edit warring, not participating in discussions)
• [116](edit warring, accusations of bad faith - my "final warning")

Other cautions:

• [117] (restoring nonconsensus material)
• [118] (adding unsourced content)
• [119] (adding nonconsensus content)
• [120] (adding fringe content)
• [121] (adding fringe content)
• [122] (trolling)
• [123] (BLP violation)

There some more I missed, if you look at User:Professor JR/archive/dustbin. The editor made 3 more POV reverts (see above)[124][125][126] after my "final warning", so here we are.

If this were a new editor, AGF suggests that we chalk this up to inexperience and unfamiliarity with editing process, basically not knowing better. However, given the claims to be a longstanding editor and government official, they surely know better. If they've edited under a different account name they need to reveal that. Conversely, if they're trying to make a WP:Clean start they've obviously failed.

I'm not going to suggest a remedy, just asking admins to pay some attention and see if we can calm the deteriorating editing environment on these articles. Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 10:18, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Support showing this editor kindness and understanding. He seems a little lost and confused. Let us show him the way so that he may better assimilate to wikipedia. W oWiTmOvEs 11:21, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

He's not lost and confused. He's been around since 2005[127] He just really, really can't stand Hillary Clinton. —Мандичка^YO 😜 11:25, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

It's a long assimilation process for some of us. W oWiTmOvEs 11:42, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

These diffs are all to warnings. Some have links to diffs inside the warning, of course, but though it's an indication of a pattern of problems, for a topic ban (as proposed below), I think we'd really want to see more diffs of the problematic editing that led to the warnings. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:05, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Just look at his contribs and reverts. I mean, seriously? Edit warring to insist the American public is really not sick and tired of hearing about Hillary Clinton's emails as Bernie Sanders joked? Edit warring to include info that Hillary Clinton is "easily" and "often confused" because it could be a "possible health issue"? —Мандичка^YO 😜 14:12, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. Responding via the ANI notice I saw on Professor JR's talk page. I do not edit or follow articles related to Hillary Clinton or Hillary Clinton email controversy, however, I do follow Nixon White House tapes where he keeps inserting a throw-away comment by Bob Woodward about the Clinton controversy into that article: diff, diff, diff, diff. Multiple editors have removed the material, indicating a consensus that it does not belong, yet he insists in his edit summaries and on the talk page that there was some agreement made in a different article that the material belongs there: diff. This is my first encounter with this editor, so I have no first hand knowledge of whether or not this is typical behavior. - Location (talk) 16:34, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Unbelievable. I am changing my response to the topic ban after reading this. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:56, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

A few edit wars

(a very partial list of major content additions; this does not include edit warring over deletions or smaller text changes)

At Nixon White House tapes:

• Clinton's emails are like Nixon's white house tapes. diff, diff, diff, diff.

At Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, 2016

• Clinton in poor health and "easily confused" per Aide Huma Abedin[128][129][130][131][132][133]
• Huma Abedin was illegally paid.[134][135]
• "See also" links to controversies.[136][137][138]
• Computer staffer "took the fifth" in front of Benghazi committee[139][140][141]
• Laughed at Carly Fiorina, tried to join Marines[142][143][144][145][146][147][148]
• Something about fundraising.[149][150][151][152]

Huma Abedin

• Illegally paid by Clinton;Clinton is in poor health, often confused.[153][154][155]

Hillary Clinton

• in poor health and "easily confused"[156]
• supposed FBI "investigation" into emails.[157][158][159][160][161][162][163][164]
• Her 1993 health plan not in the real world says Moynihan[165][166][167][168][169]
• Laughed at Fiorina.[170]
• "Lootergate"[171][172][173]

Carly Fiorina presidential campaign, 2016

• Laughed at by Clinton.[174]
• Clinton laughed at her, Clinton accused of hypocrisy.[175][176][177][178][179]

Melania Trump

• Added anti-Clinton insults about their attendance at wedding and they were only there in exchange for money [180], then restored it after someone deleted it accusing them of possible vandalism[181]

Propose topic ban for Professor JR on Hillary Clinton

I well remember Professor JR from the ludicrous Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alleged Clinton Controversies, one of the most flagrant BLP violations I've seen that WP:COATRACKed things that had nothing whatsoever to do with Clinton (ie Anthony Weiner sexting scandals). Given the other diffs above, I have no faith that this editor has shown the judgement needed to neutrally edit articles related to Hillary Clinton, and this problem is only going to intensify in 2016. I propose a topic ban. Additionally, he has stated he has been on WP since 2005, but did not establish his current account until 2015.[182] I'm wondering if he has an alternate account that he has not identified. (emailed functionaries regarding other accounts) —Мандичка^YO 😜 11:25, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I think we must try to understand the internal nuances of this complex yet charming character, who like so many of us here on Wikipedia just wants to be accepted. Yes he may dislike Clinton but this is trivial when measured against his beauty as a human being. I say between 4 to 6 more chances are in order before any substantial action against the editor is considered. As for alternate accounts, so long as there is no overlap there is no problem. Even if there was an overlap that would be good as we would get to see even more of this pretty fellow. To conclude, I propose we show Professor JR love, rather than a topic ban. W oWiTmOvEs 11:42, 1 December 2015 (UTC) Striking comment by blocked troll account. BullRangifer (talk) 03:53, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• • He can exercise his human beauty and complex charm on other articles not concerning Hillary Clinton. Alternate accounts, if valid, should be revealed WP:SOCK#LEGIT —Мандичка^YO 😜 11:52, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support -- this editor is on a mission, and he/she has shown ample willingness to edit disruptively to accomplish it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:06, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Support - If Professor JR is of this opinion as expressed at Talk:Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, 2016: And you ask why I so infrequently participate in these always fruitless TalkPage discussions with you guys. I am so done here. Have fun ganging up on Fred, and congratulating and reinforcing each-other in your little closed-minded, delusional echo chamber. Ciao. --- Professor JR (talk) 22:36, 29 November 2015 (UTC) then he should As he is unable to heed his own advice and stop editing these articles voluntarily, instead of and continues edit warring as he has done after that comment, a topic ban is appropriate. : [183], [184], [185]. - - Cwobeel (talk) 16:59, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support as nominator - it should be noted by reviewing admin for the record that Professor JR knows very well the rules regarding WP:BLP - see argument on talk page of Jack Hemingway in which he states why there should not be any mention of Hemingway's daughters' memories of abuse they suffered.... —Мандичка^YO 😜 18:04, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support Professor JR has been given ample time and more than enough warnings by quite a few editors about correcting his problematic behaviour. Nations United (talk) 18:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Only in regards the Hillary Clinton email controversy, which is a horribly biased POV article, which I recently tried to provide balance. JR was the only one to appreciate my recent edit there, which has recently been reverted. (See discussion on that Talk page.) Raquel Baranow (talk) 19:20, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

You mean the derogatory screed in Wikipedia's voice concerning Sydney Blumenthal,[186] sourced only to the partisan chair of the Benghazi committee? Professor JR's reversion[187] without talk page discussion but with an accusation of bad faith in the edit summary, tends to support the opposite conclusion. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:02, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

"Derogatory"?! Gowdy is merely summarizing facts, something I have not read in any newspaper article. The article on HRC's emails is one of the worst I have ever read on Wikipedia. Raquel Baranow (talk) 17:45, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support - Similar issues abound at Huma Abedin, where the user has repeatedly engaged in revert-warring negative and controversial information into her biography without any effort to gain consensus on the article talk page — and in fact, has refused repeated requests to discuss their proposed changes. They apparently feel that it's not necessary to gain consensus, and that's corrosive to the foundation of the encyclopedia. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:38, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support. I've seen this edit war take place on the Carly Fiorina biography, and I've also seen Professor JR edit warring on the Planned Parenthood article, making POV changes such as pro-life activists to the more attractive "advocates", giving a voice to a pro-life attack group ("CMP issued a statement"[188][189][190][191]) to give it credence it didn't deserve, and inserting a POV image into the article. I agree with the Clinton topic ban and I would support an extension to the topic of abortion. Binksternet (talk) 20:21, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Users with personal POV agendas get the boot. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:21, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Professor JR is an exceedingly capable editor and I have pleaded with him to engage in talk page discussion to try to achieve consensus, because I believe he could be of great value to these articles. But his response to my pleas has always been to (a) wax lyrical about how me and other editors are biased, and (b) place any pleas or warnings appearing on his user talk page into his "dustbin" subpage. At this point, I think a topic ban on current presidential candidates, broadly construed to include related articles, would be appropriate. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:27, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support -- It's cumbersome to distinguish between the editors good faith edits and the many POV driven edits they insert in between those edits. Lining up edits to disguise the POV edits in ways it make it difficult. Then when faced with editors who question their edits, this editor turns hostile and starts making disruptive comments, deleting any discussions or warnings on their Talk page, and proceeds to continue the same pattern over and over. I agree with Scjessey that this editor could be an asset to the project, but on the topics Scjessey lists, Professor_JR should be topic banned from. Whatever 'clean start' this editor had, it has failed. But removing the editor completely will only activate a new reincarnation, while I think a topic ban might shift the editor into other articles that I believe they could improve. Dave Dial (talk) 22:48, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support for POV pushing; editing competence does not trump NPOV. Miniapolis 23:57, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support Prof JR is on a mission that is not compatible with NPOV or collaboration. An example given above is the coatracking of Hillary Clinton's woes in a Nixon article (diff). Another example is a list of political talking points pointedly added to an AfD (diff) followed by blanking a "BLP applies everywhere" notice (diff) to the user's "archive/dustbin". The second example again attacks Clinton because of her connection with Huma Abedin, an article where Prof JR has added other undue talking points such as "often confused" for Clinton (diff). Johnuniq (talk) 00:08, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support - SPA editing with a clear POV which shows up in their edits. BMK (talk) 00:29, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support - this degree of POV-pushing, BLP violations and disruption by the editor violates one of the five pillars. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:53, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support, per Binksternet. Professor JR has been a prolific right-wing troll on several articles. The degree of POV and tendentious editing has been very tiring. Very suspicious similarities to the Koch brothers New Media Strategies whitewashing SPI scandal. I'm actually surprised he's not mentioned among the other current editors who whitewash right-wing articles. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:40, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• I hate to use the term "whitewashing" here, or rely on supposed undercover "investigations" by journalists to post content under false pretenses only to write about editors objecting to their social breaching (which violates Wikipedia's TOS and policies). The mirror image here is that guy from WND who posted Obama birther nonsense under a fake account only to write a deceptive expose that there was a wikipedia conspiracy to whitewash Obama's eligibility - see http://www.wnd.com/2009/03/91114/. If there's sockpuppetry and meatpupptery here, which is possible, it ought to be exposed and dealt with on our own terms. - Wikidemon (talk) 04:55, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• I agree. Right now we have enough for a topic ban. A wider topic ban may actually be necessary, but we can deal with that another time. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:24, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support The SNOW AfD close on Alleged Clinton Controversies in late July should have told PJR to step back and examine their neutrality. Instead, they've continued solely as a detriment to these articles. Nate • (chatter) 03:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support on the basis of the above diffs indicating a pattern of bad stuff, although I am concerned that this will just push this editor to move the problematic conduct to non-Hillary-but-still-U.S.-politics articles. I recently engaged with Prof. JR on such an article. Despite repeated entreaties from me to join the discussion at talk, he repeatedly reverted, removed sourced material, etc. Neutrality^talk 05:08, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Censoring PJR will have a chilling effect on other editorsOut There for a hard pimp (talk) 08:32, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
    • The above comment is the second edit by a throw-away account. If anyone wants to remove it and my post, please do so. Johnuniq (talk) 09:13, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
      • Just about to say the same thing myself. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 09:15, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
        • Yeah it's not suspicious at all when an account's first edits are all at ANI.... —Мандичка^YO 😜 09:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
          • Blocked. Max Semenik (talk) 09:23, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support for not just POV pushing, but POV pushing brought to a new level. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Pile-on support !vote doesn't look to be needed here, but since I requested diffs above and they have been provided, I've gone through them and come to the same conclusion it appears others have. Serious, persistent problems despite various attempts to discuss/warn. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support Strongly justified by the pattern of editing documented by the above diffs. --I am One of Many (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Hmm, no block log. He seems to use reliable sources for his one-sided content. Are the several editors who only add positive content about Hillary Clinton also POV-pushers who should be topic banned? A very poor idea to decide topic bans about something so polarizing like the American politics during elections by a popular vote here, anyway. --Pudeo' 03:10, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

  "No block log" - Meaningless, every day editors go from having absolutely no block log to being indef blocked. Sometimes it takes weeks or months for their behavior to catch up with them. "Seems to use reliable sources" - Meaningless, the majority of POV-pushers use seemingly "reliable" sources which turn out to be badly biased, even full of deliberate disinformation. It's not hard to find good-looking sources, even very well-known ones, which are completely skewed and wouldn't know an unbiased statement if it was delivered to their door by FedEx. And, of course, those sources are adept at playing the Big Lie and accusing straight-forward sources as being biased in the other direction. If we all weren't so damned polite, we'd call the sources that POV-pushers use what they are: propaganda. BMK (talk) 04:36, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

  Using "reliable sources" to insert material violating BLP or UNDUE means nothing. Look at this info he added about the Clintons attending the Trump wedding - these are straight-up insults [192]. Additionally he may have a block log under another account. Here he claims he has never used another account [193], which is flat out untrue as I've found at least two other accounts he has used. He has also as an IP editor inserted fake references to his own personal diary that does not even appear to be self-published, much less published. I can't post that info here per WP:OUTING but I've emailed the functionaries list and hope they open an SPI. —Мандичка^YO 😜 05:56, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support – Having read Professor JR's defence and rationale of their actions, below, I'm still unconvinced they grasp the problem at hand, and so therefore I support a topic ban on editing Hillary Clinton related articles and content. Instead of taking some responsibility, they instead have gone onto accuse others of wrong-doing with limited proof (despite this ANI discussion being specifically about Professor JR's conduct — not anyone elses). They fail to properly address their own conduct which is on question. Even so, I think their edits speak volumes; there is POV-pushing being done – on this user's part. The adage "the best defense is a good offense" does not cut it, Professor JR, but being accountable to your own edits does. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 13:53, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Singling out a particular, possibly "right-wing" editor, for a ban on editing this article is inappropriate when there are several other editors engaged in systemic biased editing of the article. To verify simply look at the editing history of the article and the talk page. User:Fred Bauder Talk 15:46, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

---

Break - Comments from the Accused

@MaxSem: Thank you for seeking my input and comments on this matter.

A careful, unbiased and objective look into what is going on here will fairly quickly reveal that this is a case where a small group of editors (Cwobeel, Muboshgu, Scjessey, Wikidemon, and occasionally a couple others --- very passionate about their cause, which is OK, but unable to keep their own POV out of their editing practices) has been ganging up on any other editors (not just me) and trying to suppress good faith content edits that they simply just don't like about a particular candidate for the presidency in the 2016 election. You will note, that in virtually no instance are their objections to other user's edits based on the content being untrue or inaccurate --- but, instead, they rely on excuses for suppressing it by coming up with all kinds of, usually unfounded, Wikipedia policy reasons (UNDUE; NOT NEWS; BLP; POV-pushing; etc.) for reverting, undoing or parsing that content. For example, see HERE (where I admit that I got sucked in, and made a couple of, in retrospect, injudicious comments myself.)

My suggestion and recommendation is: before Administrators take any action here, they should take a careful look at the edit history of the User who made the warnings and brought this up (Wikidemon), and those of the rest of this group (Cwobeel, Muboshgu, Scjessey) as well as some of those rushing in to support a proposed blocking. You will see that, for the most part at least, my edits were made in good faith, and that the group objecting to them really just doesn't like the content, and engages in much of the same editing conduct they are complaining about.

As for these four editors, and those who immediately jumped in to support the blocking --- If you look at their own edit histories and logs, you will see that they are themselves at least as guilty (and perhaps more so) of the very things they accuse, not just me, but many other editors of when they engage in a pattern of fairly consistently undoing, reverting and otherwise parsing the articles in question here relating to a presidential candidate. This is done always from their same POV --- and always pushing favorable text regarding her --- and consistently reverting or undoing anything that balances that content with anything that might be seen as at all negative, however well-sourced to such valid sources as the Washington Post, New York Times, NBC, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, Time, Newsweek, etc. --- hardly fringe or right-wing media outlets.

Some might conclude, too, that these same four or so users (Cwobeel, Muboshgu, Scjessey, Wikidemon and others) frequently engage in that which by all appearances runs counter to the Wikipedia policies relating to 'Wiki-Ninjas', 'Bullying', and 'Collaborating', among others --- and commonly issue all kinds of 'warnings' against other editors in an attempt to dissuade edits by the other editors.

As you will see, too (in their histories and logs) I am not the only one that has been targeted by exactly this same group, for edits to exactly the same articles. In addition, in at least one or two cases of these editors supporting this proposed blocking --- they certainly appear to be engaged in what Wikipedia calls 'Stalking'. Either that, or this person just coincidentally and suddenly developed a sudden interest 'out-of-the-blue' in articles far afield from their normal purview, that they have never edited before, within seconds after I make an edit to those articles (for example: Shirley Chisholm which was edited by Muboshgu just minutes after I made completely non-political edit to it.)

I have no bone to pick generally with Wikipedia, and certainly enjoy contributing to it when and where I can. In conclusion here, however, and in my modest opinion, for what it's worth --- I would hope that an unbiased, disinterested Administrator would not block me, without consideration also being given to also blocking those that are making what really amount to very half-baked and POV-biased allegations against me, or in some cases totally inaccurate or false charges. See for example this one which Wikidemon cites above and calls "trolling":

*[194] which when you read it, actually says just the opposite --- that is, it says that I was NOT trolling.

Several other final points with regard to allegations made about me in this thread:

* I have NEVER edited under any other account --- having ONLY edited Wikipedia under my IP address prior to establishing my Professor JR account, and then only under that account (from the same IP address).

* I have NEVER engaged in any 'sockpuppetry', nor collaborated with any other editor in any manner 'off-line' in some sort of cooperative 'sockpuppetry'.

* Unlike some of those making these allegations, I do NOT 'troll', and have no interest in doing so.

* I do engage in discussions at times on TalkPages where I find they are productive --- and have in many instances with other well-intentioned and good-faith editors --- but have found such never-ending threads of such discussions with editors like Cwobeel, Muboshgu, Scjessey, & Wikidemon to be completely fruitless and non-productive. I generally agree with something another editor, DGG has stated on his UserPage: "I do not attempt to convert my opponents--I aim at converting their audience.... [T]his is why I try to avoid head-to-head debates with other editors. Once things have reached that stage, experience here as elsewhere shows that people are not generally successful in convincing their direct opponents...."

* Although accused here by BullRangifer of being "a prolific right-wing troll on several articles", I am actually (may be a surprise these folks) a liberal Democrat --- and do NOT 'troll', and never have.

* Archiving stuff from my TalkPage is NOT the same as deleting it, as alleged above by Dave Dial and several others in this thread.

* Anything I have written on my UserPage about myself is totally accurate, none of it made up.

In my opinion, only very rarely should any good-faith, account-registered editor be blocked --- and heated discourse representative of ALL points of view (POV) should be encouraged, not blocked. For, it is from the heated crucible of such back-and-forth discussions and debates, that emerges an even better final product of the kind of encyclopedic quality that Wikipedia constantly strives for, and deserves to achieve.

I will be happy to respond to any specific questions that you may have, Max, or from other Administrators (which could be posted to my TalkPage, if you wish).

Thank you for your consideration. --- Professor JR (talk) 09:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

P.S. - For a sample of editors who seem to appreciate my contributions, and have 'thanked' me -- See: HERE.

--- Professor JR (talk) 09:17, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Additional comments from other Users

• None of this changes my view about this editor's behaviour. If sanctions are needed for other editors, then they should be proposed in a separate section. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:16, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• • "I have NEVER edited under any other account --- having ONLY edited Wikipedia under my IP address prior to establishing my Professor JR account" This is absolutely untrue. You edited using at least two other accounts: "JG*****s" and "JG***********s." Given what these accounts were editing and the info on your userpage, it's not conceivable these were not your accounts. Simply unbelievable. —Мандичка^YO 😜 15:18, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: Patently false! And, you should be careful with making such allegations, Мандичка. To what two other accounts are you referring?? --- spell them out in full, please (not just as 'JG.... and 'JG.....') if you are so sure you are correct. Otherwise, please retract your false claim. --- Professor JR (talk) 15:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I will not as I will get in trouble per WP:OUTING. But they aren't too hard to find. Additionally I've already emailed the admin list with the names so I'm not fabricating it. —Мандичка^YO 😜 16:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Why would it be considered outing to identify an editor's alternate accounts? People do it at WP:SPI all the time. If this is a reappearance of one of the vexatious users from years past we ought to know. - Wikidemon (talk) 16:46, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Wikidemon --- I completely agree. --- Professor JR (talk) 17:30, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Because the alternate accounts are possibly under his real name and/or edited information that very specifically identifies him. WP:OUTING Even though he chose to put this info on WP in the first place, he has since removed it, so even if it's still available in history, you're not supposed to repost it. I can't do an SPI for the same reason. I emailed the functionaries, whether or not they choose to do an SPI is in their hands. I didn't find any evidence of sockpuppetry abuse (ie using different accounts to edit war) but IMHO they should do an SPI based on his denial these accounts exist. —Мандичка^YO 😜 16:58, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: If you are so confident, Мандичка, that those accounts are mine (and confident enough to make such serious allegations) then, not to worry --- you have my permission to reveal the alleged "JG*****s" and "JG***********s" account names you accuse me of having had. Otherwise, I a retraction of your claim is in order. --- Professor JR (talk) 17:30, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

If I have an admin say it's OK then I will. —Мандичка^YO 😜 17:42, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

So you don't want to out Professor JR even though he is asking you to provide the information? Yeah, that's not how outing works. Professor JR, even though you've explicitly given permission above, I'll ask again - do you give Wikimandia permission to make public this information? -- samtar ^whisper 17:47, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

No, because he is asking me to explicitly violate the rules. There is nothing in the guidelines that says one can give another person permission to out them. I've gotten in trouble before for AGF and following instructions from another editor who I mistakenly thought was an admin. It made no difference that I was just doing what someone else advised me to do; he wasn't an admin and I chose to follow his advice.[195] Any admin who wants to guarantee I won't get in trouble, feel free to post. —Мандичка^YO 😜 17:56, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Neutral I'm very divided by this, as I've had past (Trump-related) editing disputes with ProfessorJR which have been productively resolved through Talk, and I've come to think of him as a kind of eccentric friend here in the community — yes, he can edit and delete precipitously, but I've never myself found him unanswerable or disengaged. In fact, I've come around to some of his arguments, particularly on BLP related to Melania Trump (we both actively defend her page). People have questioned whether his bio is legit, and now there are these identity accusations. Just to say, I've no reason to doubt his bio, and can at the very least personally attest it is possible to be a liberal Democrat and be unhinged by Hillary Clinton. I read this piling-on here with dismay, knowing there's a real person here whom I've come to understand and have sympathy for — is there a disciplinary approach that does not involve open-ended topic-banning, or worse? This IS the political season, after all, and none of us can truly claim impartiality. Here's hoping this episode can be resolved with a carrot-and-stick approach. This editor is valuable in many contexts and will continue to be so; I don't at all think ProfessorJR is irredeemable. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 18:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:WikiBulova

WikiBulova (talk · contribs · count) appears upset that me and other editors did not appreciate his/her copy&paste creation of new list-type articles (List of newspapers in Karachi, List of magazines in Karachi, List of radio stations in Karachi, List of television stations in Karachi), all being a selective copy-paste of existing artciles (List of newspapers in Pakistan, List of magazines in Pakistan, List of radio stations in Pakistan, List of television stations in Pakistan), and in apparent revenge went on to revert anything I edited on Wikipedia in the last 24 hours.[196] [197] [198] [199] [200]. I politely pointed out to the editor the reasons behind my edits to the lists,[201] and requested undoing his/her edits, but he/she does not appear to have understood this. Thank you to intervene. Regards, kashmiri ^TALK 17:18, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

This isn't the first time this user has engaged in (and been warned for) retaliatory editing—see [202] [203] [204] [205]. (TLDR version: I fixed one of their cut-and-paste moves and left a polite note informing them about this and about the correct procedure for moving pages. They responded by accusing me of threats, and then filed a spurious edit warring report on me at WP:AN3.) —Psychonaut (talk) 20:12, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• I think copying within Wikipedia says to give attribution to the parent article in edit summary or on talk page of article even while copying something from other Wikipedia articles. This editor seems to be not giving any attribution to his/her copy paste articles. Also he/she should read WP:SIZESPLIT before making any sub-articles related to same issue. Specially his this behaviour seems to be very disruptive, though he self-reverted himself. --Human3015^TALK  20:57, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, the editor saw in my edit history that I edited Kashmir Railway and decided to inflict some damage.[206]. Childish, to say the least. kashmiri ^TALK 09:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal for Omar-toons

[Pulled this out of the archive given the new comment by M.Bitton. Drmies (talk) 17:24, 1 December 2015 (UTC)]

Omar-toons (talk · contribs) is a prolific editor on topics related to northern Africa, particularly Morocco and Algeria. Unfortunately he has a strong pro-Moroccan and anti-Algerian POV that makes it impossible for him to work constructively and collaboratively on those topics. The example that brought me here was the Sand War where Omar-toons is giving prominence to less reliable sources and for spurious reasons either removes or de-emphasizes better source. Examples include [207], [208], [209], [210]. By now there's a rather wide, policy-based consensus established on the talk page; that didn't keep him from labeling those opposing his preferred order of sources "disruptive".

That pattern of edits is not limited to a single article: [211][212], [213], [214], [215]. The standard modus operandi is to revert, possibly quoting some irrelevant policy, and to keep reverting until the other side is exhausted. In my experience talk page comments generally are short, if they're given at all, and do not address the points raised by others; they're more of a diversionary tactic than an attempt to establish a consensus.

For these reasons I'm proposing a topic ban for Omar-toons from edits related to North Africa and the Maghreb. Huon (talk) 15:54, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

In my defense I could say that I always try to keep it NPOV, and that disagreeing with me about the edition on one sole article isn't enough to accuse me of being a POV-pusher (I even keep it NPOV about Western Sahara, for example by considering it a separate territory from Morocco, which can be considered illegal here... just to say).

Also, I called M.Bitton "disruptive" because... actually he is. Did you take a look on his TP (in its pre-cleaning version)? He did a mess last time he intervened... [216]. --Omar-toons (talk) 00:38, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

• Reduce Sanction to 1PR I don't think that we should TB any editor who is adding material to an article. YES his additions are POV(I have just come here from Sand war, an article I went to browse and witnessed it brim over with drama), but still he adds sources and does work. So we should just make sure that we take out the disruptive side of his contributions , and a One revert Per Day sanction should be just that. Toons can continue editing Wiki, but if he is reverted he will have to discuss it without being disruptive. Win Win for all. Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:42, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

And, FreeatlastChitchat : you are nor an admin nor involved, except the fact that we had some diagreements on previous articles (where you POV-pushed a lot)... so, what's your point? --Omar-toons (talk) 12:39, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Ummmm, don't know what to say here when faced with this kind of imbecility. But here goes. DUDE! I am on your frigging side here. Did you not even read my comment? It says "REDUCE SANCTION" right there at the start. Being involved with you in debates and still taking your side on this is evidence in itself that I am not INVOLVED, so whats your point? had I been involved I would have commented something like "Toons is a complete troll who routinely edit wars on Algeria related pages diff, diff, diff, diff. Ban him asap omg why isnt he banned yet. /hairpull #BanToons". So please do not look a gift horse in the mouth. @admins who judge this, my stance still remians that toon should not be topic banned. Regards FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 13:15, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

• Well, Omar-Toons was blocked for edit-warring this time; my suggestion was going to be that we try and let regular processes play out. I can't see if an ANEW report was filed, but that, perhaps, should be done every time OT gets to edit warring--and kindly point out, in such reports, that typically OT isn't always guilty of 3R, but rather of slower edit warring. I am well aware of OT's zeal and occasional disruption, which includes ownership-style editing and very loose interpretations of policy ("You are a little bit late : all sources are kept per WP:BOLD"); for a topic ban, however, we would need more evidence from different pages. I'll have a look at Huon's second paragraph; in the meantime, I'll also ping Dougweller, who has some experience dealing with this type of problem. In the other meantime, Omar-Toons, I wish that on occasion (like, on this occasion), you could break out your most mellow and collaborative side. Drmies (talk) 22:31, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
• OK, Omar-toons did the exact same thing on Algerian War just signaled by User:Huon, and I have blocked him again for edit warring, now for 72 hours. Drmies (talk) 23:03, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't ask for a topic ban for a slow-moving edit war, though that's tedious enough on its own. What did it for me was a mistranslation and a misrepresentation of a source. Omar-toons adding sources is no benefit if the sources don't say what he claims they say. Huon (talk) 00:10, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

• It appears that Omar-toons has used multiple accounts in a very deceitful manner and somehow, managed to cover his tracks. He created Omar-Toons (with capital "T") on April 2010. A few months later (October 2010), he created another account with very similar spelling, Omar-toons (with lower-case "t", the one he still uses). He used both accounts at the same time such as here and here (as usual, either removing sources and claiming that the statement is unsourced or adding WP:OR). After numerous blocks, including one for socking using IP [217], his account Omar-Toons (with capital "T") was finally globally locked for massive crosswiki edit-warring on July the 29th, 2012 [218]. To hide his tracks, on the 30th of July 2012 (less than 24 hours after his global block), he created a third account TooNs-NC, claimed a forgotten password (obviously, he could not log in since he was blocked), redirected Omar-Toons (with capital "T") page [219] and talk page [220] to it (even though, he had no right to mess with a blocked account). Three hours later, after a couple of contributions, he archived the pages and redirected them to Omar-toons (he shelved the temporary account, claiming it was a bad idea to create it). He also added "formerly Omar-Toons (with capital T)" to his page[221] knowing full well that When you click on it, you get redirected to the new page and won't notice anything unusual. @Huon, Drmies, and FreeatlastChitchat: How do you deal with such devious practice? Is a topic ban enough in this case? M.Bitton (talk) 17:11, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Doesn't evading a global lock warrant an indef block? https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Omar-Toons Fences&Windows 23:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

It's block evasion and sockpuppetry, which automatically should see the socks indeffed. Huon (talk) 00:51, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Black Kite, you indeffed capital T in 2012. Any comments? Drmies (talk) 04:16, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Correction: you blocked them for socking. Drmies (talk) 04:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Unjustified removal of articles from establishment by place categories.

User:Spacini has repeatedly removed articles such as 119th Illinois Volunteer Infantry Regiment from categories such as Category:1862 establishments in Illinois claiming these are "Unneccesary categories". The articles clearly state that these units were organized at a certain place in a certain year. Of there last 50 edits, 49 have been such unjustified removals of place/year categories. It seems to me if they disagree with such categories this is a matter that should be brought up as a category discussion, not by unilaterally removing categories. Here are some diffs https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=119th_Illinois_Volunteer_Infantry_Regiment&diff=prev&oldid=693294807 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=116th_Indiana_Infantry_Regiment&diff=prev&oldid=693294776 This is very disruptive and an unjustified undermining of the encyclopedia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:35, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

IP editor removing Star Citizen from List of most expensive games to develop

Someone (IP: 75.156.66.139) is continuously removing this game from the list of most expensive games to develop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop), based on these false arguments:

- Game is unfinished (Irrelevant fact to be removed from that list as the list itself doesn't have in mind the current status of a game, the game is currently work-in-progress, and there are also other unfinished/cancelled games on that list that he doesn't care about in the slightest, proof that he's only a SC hater).

- Numbers doesn't represent the amount destined to the development of the game (False: the SC devs have stated many times that the funds in the linked Stretch Goals page goes exclusively to the development of the game (1) (2). Other marketing and event stuff is handled by donations from subscribers (3) ).

(1) https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals , quote: "As a crowd funded project, Star Citizen's scope is based directly on the support provided by our backers. Money pledged goes directly to the game's development."

(2) "10 for the Chairman, Episode 69" YouTube video , (minute 4:45), quote from SC's creator and chairman as of 9, Nov 2015: "We're not doing the typical commercials. We're taking all the money we've raised, and put it into the development of the game".

(3) https://robertsspaceindustries.com/faq/subscriptions

Even knowing the truth, he keeps removing the game from that list. Thus I ask if that guy can be banned from editing this page any further. Thank you.

P.D: I'm afraid I have no idea about how to use the ANI-notice. Any help about that would be appreciated :)— Preceding unsigned comment added by KurtMaverick (talk • contribs) 07:20, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I have notified the IP user. But this looks like a content dispute. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:06, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I have asked 75.156.66.139 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) to discuss this on the talk page. Kurt, before going to AN/I you should have opened a discussion on their talk page and on the article talk about the edit, not immediately about blocking them. It is irritating when this happens, but if you don't explain on the talk pages why the content should be kept and why repeatedly removing it is not OK then an admin can hardly take action this early into a disagreement. I have now warned them that they may be blocked if they continue to remove Star Citizen. Fences&Windows 08:15, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Am, sorry. I'm a complete noob in this :) Thanks for notifying him for me thou. I also wrote the reason why it shouldn't be removed on the Talk page, but I'm gonna update it with this version (which is more complete). — Preceding unsigned comment added by KurtMaverick (talk • contribs) 12:05, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I would also suggest that you not call the IP editor a "Star Citizen hater" or any other pejorative. That is a direct violation of Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy and could result in your own temporary block if it continues. —Farix (t | c) 12:36, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Fixed as well, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KurtMaverick (talk • contribs) 12:54, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Brief note: I believe I've corrected the mass of unsigned comments and refactoring at Talk:List of most expensive video games to develop and posted a warning to KurtMaverick concerning refactoring/deleting the talk page comments of other editors, which he has done twice on this topic in the last two days. -- ferret (talk) 02:13, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

The issue is under discussion on article talk page, so I suppose request here can be closed. Sir Lothar (talk) 14:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Misleading "retired" template

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Dpmuk insists on having the retired template on their userpage, despite the fact they are continuing to edit and the template instructions clearly state "Do not use this template unless you plan to completely and permanently stop editing". They even tried to remove the latter, but was quickly reverted. There was a recent ANI about the same issue (with another user), and a broad consensus not to use this template if the user is still editing. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 07:51, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Off-topic

The earlier ANI was pretty stupid and so is this one. By the time someone uses a retirement template (even if they're not completely gone) they are pretty sick of this place, so hassling them over yet more bureaucracy is unhelpful. People who uses those templates usually return after a while regardless, so the template simply reflects a momentary state of mind regardless of what the instructions do or don't say. 173.228.123.101 (talk) 08:22, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Everything on here is pretty stupid, esp. IP jumping trolls and/or socks. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 08:27, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Ahem, AGF, folks Out There for a hard pimp (talk) 08:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC) -- samtar whisper 08:31, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Lemmie guess. You were the kid who got beat up for snitching and tattling. Don't you have anything more productive to do? Out There for a hard pimp (talk) 08:36, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• This report is completely unnecessary—if there is an actual problem, report that and mention the template as a postscript. Lugnuts has removed the template (1 + 2 + 3) and that appears to be the motivation for Dpmuk to have tried to edit the template's documentation. Poking fed-up editors does not benefit the project. Johnuniq (talk) 09:04, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I removed it in good faith - if he wasn't retired, then the template is no longer needed. The template instructions are very clear. Why have said instructions if they aren't applied? Dpmuk then showed bad faith and tried to WP:GAME the system by removing those instructions. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 09:11, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
    • Are you saying Dpmuk acted in bad faith or merely that Dpmuk broke the rules? If an editor was causing trouble with provocative comments or pointy edits, and they had a retired template, the issue should be brought to ANI for resolution. A quick look makes me think that does not apply in this case, and if Dpmuk had been left alone the fuss at the template would never have happened. A key point about editors is that most of them are human, and there may be times when they want to say i'm retired yet still do a couple of things—my suggestion would be to forget about it until there is a problem. Johnuniq (talk) 09:24, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
      • Certainly the bad-faith part applies. The template states "This user is no longer active on Wikipedia". Not "very-active". Not "only edit now and again". Not "here sometimes, but I don't post much because of a massive chip on my shoulder due to ArbCom". So there is a problem of disruption by this user. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 09:30, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
        • Any chance of a diff showing actual disruptive editing? Johnuniq (talk) 09:52, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
          • That would be every edit after adding the template to his talkpage, but here's one to appease you, John. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 09:57, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
            • Your diff shows Dpmuk making an edit to a template documentation page—checking shows they make one edit, then started a discussion at the talk page. That is ideal behavior, not "disruptive editing". I'll stop posting here in case someone else wants a go. Johnuniq (talk) 10:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with Lugnuts that the decision by Dpmuk to continue editing while using the retired template is extremely confusing and that it is completely reasonable to ask him not to do this. That said, if he ignores that advice then it is not clear to me that he is actually breaking any rules, as opposed to acting unwisely, and so it is not obvious that much can actually be done. The editing of the template documentation is a possible exception, and that was extremely unwise, but even there I am struggling to see anything actionable. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:43, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Lugnuts ought not be messing with another user's talk page. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:45, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Trouts to both of you. The template shouldn't be misused and don't mess with other people's userspace. If you've asked nicely and they've declined, come to a venue like this. Dpmuk, take the template down please. --Dweller (talk) 12:51, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed - @Lugnuts: you should not have edited another user's page, @Dpmuk: please remove the 'retired' template down before we do it for you. GiantSnowman 12:57, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Is this a directive to @Dpmuk: only? I am aware of several other users with such a template on their page, who continue to edit after putting it up. Bad Dryer (talk) 18:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Any editor who is actively editing should not have the "retired" banner on their page. They could use the "semi-retired" banner, which has a lot of wiggle room, or they could invent a customized banner as I have done from time to time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:43, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm just not seeing how editing while "Retired" is disruptive, or even confusing. (Yes, I know, "the rules" at Template:Retired/doc say you're not supposed to, but I'm having an equally hard time understanding why those rules are there.) —Steve Summit (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
  • The template itself says "This user is no longer active on Wikipedia." It's not possible to be both active and inactive. The user needs to use the "semi-retired" template instead. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:16, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I thought hard about what template to put on my userpage when I drastically cut back my editing. I thought neither the "retired" nor "semi-retired" template was completely appropriate but decided the retired template with an explanation was likely to be the least confusing to most people visiting my user page. Most people who were visiting my page were visiting about my admin or copyright work. I had "retired" from those roles and was (and still am) unlikely to respond to queries about those. Semi-retired did not seem appropriate because that would imply that I may reply about admin or copyright work. At the time I was not aware of any particular meaning being applied to the template beyond "retired", specifically there seemed no reason to think it only applied to "retired from absolutely all activity at wikipedia" since this is not what it says. For this reason I also don't consider me displaying the template with an explanation to be misleading.

Since I become aware, due to Lugnuts actions, of what the template says I have investigated this further. The definition that they and a few others seems to be relying seems to be mentioned in no policy or guideline only being mentioned in a rarely edited essay (WP:RETIRED) and on the template documentation page. I see no discussion of those definitions and not enough edits to accept that a consensus had developed by their lack of removal over times. As such I thought, and still do think, that the user page guideline that gives users much leeway on what is on their user pages is more important than a definition that didn't appear to have consensus. Given the comments here and on the template talk page I still see no consensus for "retired" only meaning "no longer editing at all" as several editors seem to be querying it's use in this way. If a consensus emerges that "retired" should only be used in this way then I'll happily remove the template, although I still think such a requirement is overly restrictive and overly bureaucratic. I would suggest the template talk page is the most appropriate place for further discussion of when the template can be used. I have expanded on my thoughts there.

@GiantSnowman: - As I say above I will remove the template once I see a consensus that it should only be used in the way you describe. At the moment I see no such consensus and so will not be acting on your demand since you are only one editor and I still feel what I currently have on my user page to be the least confusing option. Dpmuk (talk) 20:32, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: and @Dweller: - care to point me at a policy or guideline for your request for me to take it down? Your requests seem to be based on the premise that it is misleading based on your interpretation of what "retired" means from comments here and at the template talk it's for from clear to me that there is consensus that "retired" mean what you think it does. Dpmuk (talk) 20:38, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• What "consensus"? The wording on the template which you posted says you're no longer editing. If that wording is untrue, use a different template. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:59, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
  • As I point out on the template talk page I interpret that wording differently - I would not consider a user editing infrequently to be active. Maybe I'm wrong in this but from comments here and elsewhere it's obviously not as clear cut as you seem to think it is. Dpmuk (talk) 01:34, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I believe there was a previous ANI about something similar where an admin wanted to have something that informed visitors that they were no longer an admin but was not retired from editing. I think it was a userbox that was ultimately settled on. I'll have to dig it back up. @Dpmuk:, would something of this sort be useful? Blackmane (talk) 00:47, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

NE Ent has proposed something similar on my talk page and I'd like a little feedback there from them before posting it here. Dpmuk (talk) 01:34, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposal

The user in question is being dishonest. He's rationalizing the use of a misleading template. If he's unwilling to use the "semi-retired" template, which be the honest thing to do, then his purpose is disruption "to make a point", and he should be booted from Wikipedia. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose as pointless rulemongering. —Steve Summit (talk) 22:00, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: could we please have an official template for "gone off in a huff after being dragged to AN/I"? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:06, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose: the editor has said that after researching the past history of the template, they found no evidence of a consensus for its meaning "no edits ever" aside from in the documentation. Who put that in the documentation? If it was just put there by an editor one day, without any discussion or consensus about it, then I'm not sure why it should be heeded. Anyone wanting to pursue this matter needs to research the history behind this template (it also seems very byzantine to me to have a template that's only for permanently retiring with no intention to come back... we have no-going-back templates, really?) LjL (talk) 22:08, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
  • If the template means nothing, then why does it even exist? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
    • I've often thought that. A final statement would be far clearer and more equitable. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
    • Since the template is now being used differently from what it actually says, maybe it should be nominated for deletion? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:11, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

178.217.194.100

178.217.194.100 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has, over the last few weeks, been trying to add a huge table about birth rates by the country of birth of the mother and father in England and Wales. When reverted at Demography of England, the IP posted it at Demography of the United Kingdom, then when reverted there at Foreign-born population of the United Kingdom, and now Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom, despite warnings not to continue doing so. Seeing their latest edit, I thought that I would see what they have been adding to articles on other countries. I found this addition to Demographics of France, including the text: "If French people (whites) didn't wake up they will be minority in their own country, and they arleady lost Paris". Is it time to block? Cordless Larry (talk) 08:08, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Following my revert, the IP has restored the unsourced commentary less the racist postscript. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:33, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

And I have removed and deleted it as a copyvio of http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2014/04/race-in-france-a-sketch-based-on-first-and-second-generation-immigrants/. They began editing in June with gnoming table edits on demography, they appear to be an experienced editor. Their recent commentary noted above reveals a disturbing motive for their editing, it may be time to block if they won't properly engage in discussion. Fences&Windows 08:54, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Some of the user's edits can cause improvements, as the information added to demographics of the UK was then turned into prose by myself. The problem is that they have never engaged in discussion or edit summaries and most of the edits miss the mark on the style of Wikipedia (i.e. overloaded tables). The scale of articles with such tables added is staggering and I'm amazed this has gone on for so long without being picked up. Maybe a block will force the user into discussion... Jolly Ω Janner 09:06, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Abstracting out the content issue, there's an interesting question regarding tables and data, especially tables which collate readily accessible (and verifiable) information, possibly from multiple sources, but which don't fit well, stylistically. Is there a place to put big data tables? Wikidata seems to be the wrong place, but articles do suffer from large tables. Argyriou (talk) 20:18, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

It's worth saying that excessive lists of statistics are discouraged by WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:35, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Politically partisan disruption of Proportional representation

• BalCoder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Ontario Teacher BFA BEd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Proportional representation (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Since Aug.16 a new user, Ontario Teacher BFA BEd, has been disrupting the proportional representation (PR) article for politically partisan reasons. He displays all WP:DISRUPTSIGNS except cite-tagging. He is WP:NOTHERE to improve WP but to help the Conservative Party of Canada (CPC). I am the only person protecting the PR article, I don't see a way out except to get the user blocked, so I come back to WP:ANI.

Story so far: I have tried talk page discussion, WP:BRD, not reverting to encourage cooperation, a WP:ANI incident to block him which attracted no admin response, a request for help at WP:WikiProject Politics which also brought no response (it appears to be moribund). The article has twice been protected to encourage cooperation. After the ANI failure my only recourse was reverting but we were both blocked once for edit warring. Others encouraged me to try WP:DRN, which I did twice, here and here, both attempts failing because Ontario, although agreeing to both mediations, failed to cooperate.

Political bias: Apart from PR, almost all Ontario's edits have concerned Canadian politics, obviously in connection with the Oct.19th Canadian federal election, and obviously in support of the Conservative Party of Canada (e.g.here, here, here). In the PR article he puffs FPTP and diminishes the various PR systems, particularly MMP. MMP is the official policy of the New Democratic Party, and reform of the electoral system to a more proportional one is a policy of the new Liberal government. The CPC wants to retain FPTP. Ontario has also misleadingly changed a number of other electoral system articles with crude copy/paste from the PR article, as well as a template:

• Mixed-member proportional representation (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Semi-proportional representation (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Plurality voting system (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Voting system (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Closed list (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Open list (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Template:Electoral systems (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

The basic dispute: Ontario insists that mixed member proportional representation (MMP) is not PR but "mixed", and has mutilated the article's structure in consequence. MMP is both mixed and proportional, as its name implies. That it is "usually considered PR", as the lead says, is uncontentious, has unimpeachable sources, and has not been challenged since being introduced on Dec.11, 2014 (diff) (in those eleven months, though the article receives ca.1000 hits/day, the only changes to the MMP section have been some commas and the words "Scotland and Wales".) Although I have referred him seven times to these sources, and they were the subject of both DRN incidents, he has yet to justify his removal of the statement. He allows only that MMP is semi-proportional for which he produces thirteen (!) sources, none of which supports his contention. His only arguments are some specific MMP elections which did not produce proportional results, one of which, Hungary, is already mentioned in the article as an example of gerrymandering.

WP:DISRUPTSIGNS:

Tendentious

Ontario's edits are determinedly anti-PR and pro-FPTP, and sources are bent to this end. Not only concerning MMP, but also party list PR (e.g.that open and closed systems do not use districts, a nonsense - he uses the word "zone" rather than "district" as an evasion), and, since Nov.5, he has removed sourced statements about STV in the article lead that were the result of a consensus (here) presumably what the comment "removed/moved redundant or superfluous sentences" refers to.

His Talk posts are wilfully misleading. His most recent post is typical, a whole paragraph about an uncontentious classification of electoral systems; the actual problem, that MMP is nonetheless proportional, is not mentioned. He adds: "I have, in good faith, retained all of your minor edits...": as far as I can see he has retained one, a positive (for him) change in emphasis at the beginning of the section "Link between constituent and representative", but removed all other changes, for e.g.that some researchers question the importance of this link, and the sources for that. Another example is this post to user Reallavergne: none of his claims in it is correct.

He repeatedly protests that his edits are mostly minor edits (he doesnt' t grasp WP:MINOR), spelling & grammar (there was one spelling error, I think), layout errors (presumably the mangling of the article's structure) or formatting that doesn't change the meaning (the table in "PR systems in the broader family of voting systems", probably a WP:COPYVIO), implying I am unreasonably reverting trivial changes. But this is deception: his changes are not at all trivial, and his revised structure (sections "Party list PR" and "Mixed electoral systems") is chaotic. User:Reallavergne, invited by Ontario to comment, and who has suffered at my hands in the past (e.g.here,here) and so is no fan of mine, agrees that my mass reverts were "largely justified".

Qualifications are frequently used to mislead: e.g. fully proportional, pure PR, delineated districts. Another deception is his trying to imply that it is I making unacceptable edits to his text and not the other way round. He accordingly changed the talk section title, this in his first (!) talk post in WP (it was later changed by User:Drcrazy102). But until Nov.26 - when after eleven days without an edit I assumed Ontario had withdrawn - I had not added any text at all since Ontario began editing on August 16. I am just protecting what was there before.

Verifiability

He cannot produce sources when challenged (e.g.here), but boasts about the "plethora" of sources he has introduced, bamboozling with quantity, knowing they won't be looked at. They seldom support his arguments. For e.g.his lead, para 3, "MMP is a middle ground between" is supported by none of the nine (!) sources; the same for "This has led to some disagreement...". In the section "PR systems in the broader family of voting systems", only one source (from which it was copied) supports the table, the other nine (!) don't; neither do they all support the classification. On Sep.27 I complained that a RS did not support his text: he has removed the RS but not the text, which is not correcter for now being unsourced. His ref.30 (Geometric Voting) ostensibly supports MMP producing semi-proportional results, but it in fact says this happens only if the system is "deliberately" designed that way (see my Oct.3 post). His references in DRN #2 to p.22 of the Forder book are fiction. I haven't checked them all. I have repeatedly pointed him to WP:VERIFY and he retorts it is I who should provide sources to justify my revertions!

Does not engage in consensus building

Not once has he straightforwardly answered a question of mine. From the start his tone has been confrontational. For example, after I proposed BRD he replied: "Know this, if you continue to simply reinsert the same flawed text..." - this tone in only his second ever post to a talk page. And I'm not inserting anything. When, at his request, I posed three central questions (on Sep.21), he avoided answering them by answering different questions. He has several times been told by others to discuss point by point, but has yet to do so. This statement to admin User:Abecedare is therefore an outrageous untruth.

Ignores community input

There hasn't been much community input, but there is the failure to partake in the WP:DRN incidents; ignoring this earlier proposition from User:Drcrazy102 to mediate. And when User:Reallavergne (Ontario's invitee) confirmed that "MMP should be considered proportional", Ontario simply "overlooked" this inconvenient truth.

Exhaust the patience of productive editors

This seems to be Ontario's tactic, keep the tsunami of text coming until I give up. What the text says is secondary, so long as a semblance of reasonableness is preserved to mislead the uninvolved; he knows no-one else is going to read it all.

Failure to 'get the point'

One example: I wrote on Aug.26 that MMP is mixed, but on Nov.3 he was still maintaining I "flip-flop" on the very existence of "mixed" systems. But the point is uncontroversial and irrelevant, a distraction to avoid confronting the real point, that MMP is proportional, which would bring down his house of cards. Another: he seized on a recent anonymous IP edit as a new battleground, insisting it was from me. I denied that it was. Nonetheless, in the following posts he continued to claim it was from me, an entirely synthetic dispute, another red herring. There are more.

Ontario should be permanently blocked from all electoral system articles. --BalCoder (talk) 10:27, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Comments: This is a content dispute

I've been watching this content dispute unfold. It really needs to start from scratch, back to the beginning, dumping all baggage. Though interested, I'm largely ignorant re different voting systems and how they impact elections in Ontario or Canada. As an outsider, I don't see a solution in this fog, but I can see a shadow of hope in the direction of discussing edits and putting aside editors' behaviour. There's a lot of animosity here (on all sides) that needs to be digested and disposed of.

To BalCoder & Ontario Teacher BFA BEd: I direct the comments above to you personally. If you respond as if I directed these comments to you personally, you will have missed my point about discussing edits, not editors, even though you have been attacked. A solution will need editors to make heroic efforts to completely ignore comments on their motives, competency, and adherence to rules.

BalCoder, you might step back and see this from an outsider's perspective. Statements such as "I am the only person protecting the PR article", and "a WP:ANI incident […] which attracted no admin response" are red flags to me that an editor has invested their interest too personally, and may not be able to retreat to a consensual position.

Yes, there has been a frustrating failure to resolve this with talk pages, dispute resolution and appeals to administrator intervention. Perhaps a lot of that has to do with the intricate nature of the topic, and the nuances that are in contention. I bet I'm among many readers that would have loved to have helped out, but were not knowledgeable enough. This one is going to take a painstaking slog through edits one at a time. Apart from ejecting egos, my other recommendation is making edits in small steps, and allowing agreement to settle before proceeding. The article has been unsettled for three months now. I see no harm in proceeding carefully for another three months. My two cents. Willondon (talk) 16:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Comment: Is this really just a content dispute?

I would not be so quick as to call this just a content dispute. As BalCoder points out, I have had my own quarrels with his ready use of mass reversions when a more constructive approach might have been called for. That said, I think he and I did succeed in improving the Proportional Representation entry somewhat together. It was just way more tedious and time-consuming than I could afford, and I had to move on to other things, abandoning with regret some of the work that Balcoder had block-reverted. Later, I saw Balcoder adopting the same approach with someone else, but I got involved in helping to come to a constructive solution and found that this worked out well.

Whatever difficulties Balcoder and I may have had, there is much to be said for his willingness to go the extra mile to protect the integrity of a polically-sensitive Wikipedia entry like this one. One can forgive a lot of sins when one witnesses such a high level of dedication.

From a content perspective, I can vouch for the fact that some of the changes proposed by Ontario appear to be politically motivated and make no sense to me from a strictly content perspective. The example that Balcoder gives of Ontario Teacher BFA BEd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) treating MMP like it was not a proportional system stands out very strongly in this respect. Ontario's views on this are nonsense, and I spent a considerable amount of Talk time explaining that, apparently to no effect. Balcoder cites a number of other quite convincing cases where political motivation appears to be involved in Ontario's Wikipedia edits.

I suggested earlier that Balcoder's mass reversion probably makes sense in this case. I stand by that suggestion. More difficult is the question of whether Ontario should be blocked as politically motivated. I believe this option should be more carefully considered, looking at the examples that Balcoder has cited, than I can afford to do right now, but I would not be too quick to dismiss it as an option. In fact, if our concern is to protect the integrity of the site, I would say that this is the risk-management option to choose. That's my two cents worth. Wish I could afford to do more than that!Reallavergne (talk) 20:25, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - This is only a "content dispute" in that many disputes arise as content disputes and are then complicated by conduct issues. Both another DRN volunteer and I tried to mediate this dispute, and we both had to fail it because User:Ontario Teacher BFA BEd didn't participate constructively. In the case of my thread, they agreed to mediation and then didn't reply for five days, after a statement having been made that every editor must participate at least every 48 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
• Unfortunately, I have to Support a topic ban, because content remedies have not worked. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Rhema Media

Disruptive edits are being made to Rhema Media.

• Sourced content is being repeatedly removed without explanation.
• Third-party sources are being deleted, and even basic bot fixes are being reverted.
• Content is being added that is copyright, unsourced, non-NPOV, advertorial and highly subjective - most copied from here or here.
• User:Leenz999 has done this here and here. They have made similar edits here, here and here.
• User:MikeMediaNZ has done this here. They have been invited to talk but haven't engaged.
• User:RM1251 has done this here. They have been invited to talk but haven't engaged. They continue to make disruptive edits.

Thanks. Paewiki (talk)

Very, very clear promotional and COI edits. Note the usernames: Leenz - Lee is a named employee in the article about this New Zealand (nz) company. MikeMediaNZ - Mike is also the CEO's name. RM1251 - Rhema Media 1251 (AM 1251 is a their radio station). Requested page protection and left a message at WP:COIN pointing here. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:06, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Page protected for two weeks and all editors notified about COI. Let's see how they respond. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:18, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Possible uncivil conduct; requesting mediation

• HuntClubJoe (talk · contribs · count · logs)

Contributor has possibly engaged in uncivil behaviour on their talk page. [222] It is requested that a party not involved in discussion mediate or weigh-in on the matter so as to help deescalate situation.

Background: This is an out-crop from (extremely minor and trivial) dispute involving addition of advert tag to Rogers Communications article. This resulted in comments left on talk page of Raysonho, found here; to which myself [223] and that contributor [224] responded. After this, I also left a reply on talk page of HuntClubJoe, stating that uncivil behaviour is unwelcome within the project and encourage them to behave civilly. [225] (I replied to the first-linked possible incivility about 30 minutes ago and that diff may be found here)

-- dsprc ^[talk] 14:07, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I've warned the editor about personal attacks and asked them to redact it.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:39, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Mediation is voluntary and can be requested at the dispute resolution noticeboard or requests for formal mediation. Civility is not optional and one editor has been warned. If the editors want to resolve a content dispute, they can request mediation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert McClenon (talk • contribs) 19:29, 2 December 2015‎

@Robert McClenon: WP:DRN says in header with bold text it is to only be used for disputes on content. AN/I seems to be the only venue as ingress point for conduct-related matters. Formal mediation (and most other routes) require preceding options to have already been explored and/or exhausted before raising issues within, and escalating to, those particular venues. Gotta love (loathe?) all that red-tape! Berean Hunter handled the matter perfectly (a simple "Hey, cut it out" was sufficient action at this juncture). -- dsprc ^[talk] 05:23, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Dsprc - You said that there was uncivil conduct and you were requesting mediation. Maybe you made the good-faith mistake of labeling a request for an admin warning, which was given, as a request for mediation. You are correct that DRN is for content disputes. Mediation is for content disputes. Maybe this has been taken care of. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:52, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Spammer

PicoRobin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Seems like a single-purpose account for spamming one url, and trying to disguise it as a valid source. Eik Corell (talk) 16:14, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't appear as though s/he has edited since you left him/her a warning. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 01:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Florida libraries

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I had reverted excessive materials (prices, fees, service lists, historical timelines and trivial past events) that had been added about the library system on the article Charlotte County, Florida (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by DeValk10 (talk · contribs). After the second revert, I also started a talk page discussion where I pointed out the concerns above, as well as the issue of WP:WEIGHT of the library material in an article about the county. If there are adequate third party sources, then some of that content may be appropriate for creating an article about the library systems - but it is excessive for an article about the county.

As a next step, I was going to start an RFC on the talk page; but I had it pointed out on my talk page that the user is doing similar edits to multiple articles. As a result, I thought it best to start a discussion at WP:ANI to request others to look at these edits are spreading to additional articles - and the user is arguing in their edit summaries that they should not be reverted because "This is a university assignment to add Library Information"[226][227], suggesting they seem to think their assignment takes precedence over Wikipedia policies and guidelines. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:33, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

This looks like a confused new user, not a COI problem or vandalism. The edits seem well-intentioned and reasonable, just wordy. Please don't WP:BITE the new editor. I put a note on the user's talk page to read WP:ASSIGN and let us know more about their school assignment and instructor.[228] The real problem here is that some instructor told their student(s) to edit Wikipedia but didn't set up a school project so we can communicate with the instructor when necessary. John Nagle (talk) 00:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, not COI nor vandalism. Not sure why the comment about bite - my only post to their talk page was mentioning the discussion here, and they never replied to my comment on the article talk page.

Hopefully the user will point their instructor towards WP:ASSIGN. My concern was the pattern spreading to multiple articles. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:00, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

We've reached out to the student to see if we can figure out what class and school this assignment is for. IF we can figure it out, I'll reach out to the instructor. Thanks. Helaine (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:45, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2.86.255.196

2.86.255.196 continues to silently removed condensed box office values at 2015 in film, most recently here, despite having received two warnings about edit warring, along with my clear explanation that consensus already exists for the condensed values. Further, I've pointed out to them twice that a discussion is already in place at Talk:2015 in film, which they have not participated in. The article had recently been protected to foster dialogue, but the IP editor failed to participate. Other edits of the same kind from the IP: [229][230][231][232] Looks to me like the user is determined to get his way. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:00, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I will also point out that six minutes after I notified him that an ANI case was open on him, he again submitted his preferred version after another editor had reverted him. Clearly disruptive behavior, and he has crossed 3RR. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:21, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I placed a 3RR warning on the IPs talk page. Regardless of the content involved (which I'm not taking a position on at this time as I'm about to logoff and haven't had time to review positions on each side about the content), edit warring is not acceptable. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:22, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Nonsensical Edit-Warring, Hostile Editing and MOS:LEAD Violation by TheRedPenOfDoom (TRPoD)

Zee Bangla is a major Indian television network in the Bengali language. It has a viewership of over 55 million. [233] Just to put that into perspective, this network has a larger viewership than NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX and the CW combined. [234] Due to WP:BIAS, naturally there's not a lot a proportional amount of editing in English WP.

But you wouldn't know it's even a television network due to TRPoD's edit-warring.

User:TheRedPenOfDoom has been hell-bent on getting this deleted with either blanking redirects to the network's holding company or "Notability" tags.[235][236][237][238]. During a WP:TNT job he deleted the lede.[239] You would have no idea what the article topic is by TRPoD's edit. Naturally I added a lede per MOS:LEAD. That lede was:

Zee Bangla (Bengali: জ়ী বাংলা) is a Bengali language cable television channel in India. It is offered by Zee Network, part of the Essel Group.

TRPoD deleted this sentence and didn't replace it with anything so nobody has any idea what even this topic is! His edit summary was "WP:BURDEN it is obviously a claim and unsourced." [240]

Either this editor is operating on the assumption that every single sentence in WP mainspace must be cited by sources or he's just being combative for the sake of combativeness. Given his history, I'm wondering if it's the latter. I wouldn't have brought this case to this board but I see that this editor was blocked by Administrator User:HJ Mitchell for "edit-warring and creating a hostile editing environment" so this behavior is clearly nothing new to him and he has learned nothing from that block. I also see TRPoD has been the subject of multiple ANI cases.[241][242][243][244]

Can something be done about this longtime problem editor? TRP

Also, can someone please fix the MOS:LEAD violation on the Zee Bangla page? --Oakshade (talk) 02:36, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

This looks like a content dispute to me. In my opinion his edits do seem a bit too aggressive in terms of removing unsourced stuff (rather than tagging it), since it's not like this is a BLP or a situation where leaving tagged unsourced stuff up for a bit while people search for sources would be a problem; but I don't see how it's a policy violation, so it doesn't really belong here, especially since there seems to have been no attempt by anyone but him to resolve the dispute on the talk page for the article. In any case, if it's as big as that, answering his objections by finding sources should be easy to do, so I don't understand why this dispute has gotten so far -- just take the sources you presented here and put them in the article, if you think they pass WP:RS (I'm not sure myself, but that's something you can hash out with him on the talk page if it turns out to be an issue.) Also, you're required to notify people when creating an ANI thread about them, though I went ahead and did it for you in this case. --Aquillion (talk) 02:47, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

A lot of what you said is correct. This is more about this editor's long-term edit-warring pattern of behavior of that has displayed and still hasn't paid heed to the community's request he stop this behavior.--Oakshade (talk) 02:53, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

If you are correct about Aquillion being correct, we can close this thread. User:TheRedPenOfDoom, the fate of the world is not at stake in this article. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 03:32, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Feel free to close this. But I guarantee this is not the last time someone is going to bring this editor to community scrutiny.--Oakshade (talk) 03:49, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

(non-admin closure) More trolling from the 166 range. BMK (talk) 04:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Block TRPoD for disruption I think it's clear that TRPoD's conduct is disruptive. There is no need to remove content. 166.176.59.69 (talk) 04:02, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

User Springee Canvassing

User Springee has taken to canvassing to find support for his point of view on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. He explicitly asked SlimVirgin to contribute to the discussion after discovering s/he held the same position as him in an earlier talk page discussion from 5 years ago. [245] I warned[246] him about canvassing which he dismissed as an attempt to "intimidate"[247] and then continued to recruit SlimVirgin to weigh in on the discussion.[248] His statement wasn't neutrally stated and he didn't contact anyone with an opposing point of view to join the discussion. This is a violation of WP:VOTESTACK and Campaigning as described by WP:CANVASS.Scoobydunk (talk) 04:07, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Except for that there isn't a vote, and that this could just as easily be seen as someone asking an expert opinion. Your warning consisted of nothing more than dropping a template on their talk page. No doubt this results from all the animosity on the talk page, where Gamaliel has already asked for the thermostat to be turned down a little bit. Drmies (talk) 05:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Springee's Reply This is simply a case of an editor with a wp:battleground mentality trying to game the system rather than assuming good faith in addressing a content dispute. It is similar in nature to an ANI the editor filed against me in September also related to the Southern Strategy article [249]. Admin Ricky81682 was the only admin to reply to (excluding some unrelated IP harassment) noting that "There's a perfectly good reason it's been ignored. These kinds of arguments also keep going to WP:AE (which at least has a word limit) and no one particularly cares because everyone can see what this is."[250].

Over the past few weeks I have been trying to edit a section of the same article. Scoobydunk has reverted my edits a number of times[251][252][253][254][255] claiming, in part, that WP:RS says that non-peer reviewed sources are less reliable than peer reviewed sources and thus can not be used to challenge a peer reviewed source.[[256]] Likely due to the walls of text this discussion yielded no support for his views. To get outside help in solving the WP:RS question regarding scholarly vs non-scholarly contradicting sources I started a RSN discussion.Reliable Sources Noticeboard Given the contentious exchanges in the topic only editor replied prior to today (only after I started replying to this ANI did I see today's replies to the RSN discussion). Given the lack of replies I went looking for older archive discussions and found the thread Scoobydunk is referring to. It was clear from reading that discussion that the consensus was that peer reviewed sources should not automatically trump non-peer reviewed sources. I asked an editor from that thread to weigh in on the topic. I did not ask the editor to decide if the sources I was using were reliable nor did I ask the editor to decide if the edits I was making to the article were correct. It is quite possible the editor would totally disagree. However, as someone who was involved in the discussion and as one of the editors who helped craft the WP:RS guideline it seemed reasonable to ask for the opinion. I do not feel I asked in a non-neutral way since I was asking for the opinion on a policy, not article edits. Furthermore, asking ONE involved editor hardly seems like canvasing. Springee (talk) 05:06, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Springee, I was starting to be on your side until I saw you responding to DreamGuy with a half a mile of text, and now you're doing the same thing here. Good god you are wordy. Drmies (talk) 05:09, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

And we see that once again history repeats itself. A "slim", "Virgin" is at the centre of drama. Apparently Springee has abducted the aforementioned virgin to render him favours, which does not suit dunk's view as he wants the Slim Virgin all for himself. One a more Boring and wiki policified note, this does not appear to be a Canvass as the forum being used is not one which relies on voting. This is a basic request for views on source credibility and asking an expert to voice her(yes I presume all virgins that are slim should be "her") views. So, in a nutshell, Mush Drama about nothing. Regards , a slightly high FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 05:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Drmies, sorry about the long reply. I too often feel the need to include all the details. Springee (talk) 06:45, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Canvassing is not limited to "voting" and clearly applies to debates and noticeboard discussions. Also, if Springee wants to make his own ANI topic to address his concerns, he's more than welcome to. However, this topic is specifically to address WP:VOTESTACK concerns. The policy explicitly says "In the case of a re-consideration of a previous debate (such as a "no consensus" result on an AFD or CFD), it is similarly inappropriate to send an undue number of notifications specifically to those who expressed a particular viewpoint on the previous debate. For example, it would be votestacking to selectively notify a disproportionate number of "Keep" voters or a disproportionate number of "Delete" voters." Not to mention the part about Campaigning. Springee didn't just ask for clarification, he repeatedly asked for involvement on the RSN which is directly defined as canvassing. He explicitly explains how he found this discussion, identified a user that had the same opinion as him, and requested that user weigh in on the discussion, while no asking editors with opposing views to weigh in. That's verbatim WP:VOTESTACK which also says nothing about "voting". Scoobydunk (talk) 07:01, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Since when is notifying one expert vote stacking? Springee (talk) 07:18, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

"it is similarly inappropriate to send an undue number of notifications specifically to those who expressed a particular viewpoint on the previous debate." as per WP:VOTESTACK. It's literally right there in the policy.Scoobydunk (talk) 07:20, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

What is an undue number? Springee (talk) 07:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

More than zero. BMK (talk) 07:36, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I believe it's an uneven number. But let's not forget about this part too "Votestacking is an attempt to sway consensus by selectively notifying editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view or opinion (which may be determined, among other ways, from a userpage notice, such as a userbox, or from user categorization), and thus encouraging them to participate in the discussion." here we don't have to worry about defining "undue" because this explicitly explains what you did in encouraging SlimVirgin to participate in the discussion. You knew their position on the matter, only selected that single editors, and encouraged them to join the RSN. Scoobydunk (talk) 07:36, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

She (I assume she) was an editor who helped write the RS policy and thus was well placed to tell us what the indented meaning was. Contrary to how you portrayed things, there was a general consensus in the archived discussion that RS does not automatically place scholarly sources over other reliable sources. The debate was how that should be communicated, not that it was the intent. Springee (talk) 07:42, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Notice: I got pinged here so whatever. I think that was canvassing but Slimvirgin commented mentioning that and did not actually seem to offer an opinion. I think the Scoobydunk's templating is fine, nothing more is needed as long as Springee stops doing anything more in that vein. Second, there are four outside other opinions at RSN now so I don't think there's nothing more needed as the discussion is properly focused on weight which is the actual issue. Third, god the length and bickering is nuts here. I think it's almost time to consider dual topic bans or something just for the sake of the rest of us. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:07, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Question I have been accused of asking only a single admin in an archive thread. Scoobydunk claims there was not consensus on the particular question I was asking. So whom else in that archived thread should I have asked to avoid the perception of imbalance? Springee (talk) 13:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC) Comment Scoobydunk previously accused me of canvasing when I asked another editor to lend a voice to the Southern Strategy article. When looking for an 3rd party POV I was deliberate in picking an editor whom I respected but almost always disagreed with.[257] As can be seen in the article talk section and the notice board discussions Fyddlestix has largely not agreed with me and my proposed edits including the ones related to this discussion. For the trouble of going out of my way to pick an editor whom I assumed would not be inclined to agree with me I was accused of canvasing.[258] Springee (talk) 15:15, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• I get that Springee is frustrated. Let's channel that frustration in other ways. The impulse to seek other opinions and break an impasse between two editors is a good one, so instead of complaining about inappropriate canvassing, let's try to channel that into an RFC or a post at Wikipedia:Third opinion or some other means of appropriate dispute resolution. Here, this discussion is just becoming an extention of the initial dispute. Gamaliel (talk) 15:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• I only listed canvassing concerns for the current RSN, however they've been going on for about a month in various degrees of our discussions. If Springee is going to reference his outreach to Fyddlestix, then the rest of his outreaches should be noted. So, Springee considers Fyddlestix a typically opposing view when it comes to matters of dispute, however Fyddlestix had no previous involvement on the Southern Strategy article before Springee contacted him. Springee left Fyddlestix, the opposing view, a neutrally worded message. At the same time, Springee contacted Rjensen [259] who had been recently engaged on the Southern Strategy, and left him a clearly biased message laying out his argument in full and seeking assistance. I gave Springee a warning for this biased approach in recruiting editors, as Springee notes above. Since then, Springee has also contacted Scott Illni [260][261] who's previously edited the article similarly to Springee, like including information claiming Reagan didn't use the Southern Strategy[262]. Springee has also contacted Guy Macon[263] to seek assistance, and Guy Macon has taken similar stances with Springee regarding multiple political issues in the past. Then, of course, there's SlimVirgin. So Springee attempted to involve 1 editor with an opposing view, while contacting 4 editors with supporting views over the course of the last month. I only focused on SlimVirgin and the current RSN because I don't like raising issue when the content can be subjective, and with SlimVirgin it is an objectively verbatim violation of WP:VOTESTACK. However, if Springee considers his outreach to Fyddlesix to be an example of recruiting an opposing view, then his similar outreaches to 3 supporting views should be noted.Scoobydunk (talk) 18:28, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Censorship of religious phrases and words in usernames and abuse by administrators

• Pinging: @The Anome, Ohnoitsjamie, and Rklawton:. Swarm ♠ 06:34, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

A group of us are starting the Wikiproject Satanism. A number of us are related to current in the news Satanic organizations such as The Satanic Temple we recently created (last 24 hours). It was long overdue and we were suprised it wasn't online.

Members started adding recent events and protests to applicable arties (with reasonable or better sources) including:

Mass (liturgy)

Fred Phelps

St. Junípero Serra

The Satanic Temple

Lucien Greaves (admins rushed it into deletion even though it had valid references and person notability; he's on CCN tonight (was supposed to be interviewed at 9:00 EST).

The first admin Rklawton decided to remove ALL of Barfbag666's content posted (with valid citations) arbitrarily. Having not known the process and it was quite apparent he appeared singling Barfbag666 out, Barfbag666 complained on his (Rklawton) user talk. These were some of Barfbag666's first edits in quite a while, and spent a lot of time on them and figuring out syntax. Barfbag666 should have posted on the talk on pages impacted and not his; wrong place. Barfbag666 didn't know the process however the complaints were valid. The articles Barfbag666 posted had extensive notability Lucien Greaves for example, and Barfbag666 wanted to build the "leaf" pages while others built The Satanic Temple page.

If you haven't checked the news the TST is all over the place and so is Lucien Greaves

Barfbag666 didn't put a lot of effort in Lucien's article, but knew his notability, provided valid links. Barfbag666 needed peers to help edit and was in the process of getting help elsewhere. It was obvious based on conversation Rklawton was near clueless about how in the news the TST and Lucien; practically ignorant on the topic. He thought Barfbag666's articles were "vandalism" whereas they were directly supported by rather large news reports and sites; they were very notable and supported.

When Rklawton's attack failed due to Barfbag666 providing rather extensive sources; magically the username Barfbag666 was blocked claiming it violated TOS and in particular "disruptive" (rather subjective). Barfbag666 stated a "barfbag" (otherwise synonymous with Sick bag) is nothing offensive, disruptive, or the numbers 666; it's a significant number to Satanism. Another admin The Anome decided to team up and come to Rklawton's failed ignorant efforts. The Anome may have performed the original block, we hunch in kahoots due to timing. Satanism isn't always pleasant however a barf (space) bag is just a bag similar to that of a brown paper lunchbag. In fact, it can be kind of humerous which last i checked wasn't against TOS. The Anome stepped in and basically didn't listen to reason, He also made an irrelevant sexual reference to emetophile suggesting Barfbag666 may get off sexually on the concept of vomit. Was i offended? Maybe, maybe not but it shows a double standard. Barfbag666 just kind of stepped away in disgust for the two (kind of three) admins and obvious bias and Witch-hunting.

So a related friend HAILXSATANX666 creates a new account to continue Barfbag666's work starting with the actual The Satanic Temple then adding content to Junípero Serra per relatively recent events however including valid references. Not too much after The Anome was apparently stalking a few of the pages Barfbag666 was working on and places a similar name ban on HAILXSATANX666 and removing valid content.

A huge justification was given primarily out of HAILXSATANX666's name is just a religious greeting/goodbye phrase one would say to another Satanist or well, anyone really. It's like a Christian saying "God Bless" greeting or saying goodbye. Again, the number 666 was added this time more or less because HAIL SATAN was already taken. However, the HAIL SATAN text in a pen name is desired. Obviously the concern with Barfbag666 based on the logged talk was "Barfbag" and didn't appear to be the "666". Therefore the admin The Anome has a personal problem with "HAILXSATANX"; again a outright cherished religious phrase used when saying hello, goodbye, "right on", "kick ass", "yeah buddy", type celebratory moments. Ref Hail_Satan It's documented as part of our religion!

1. The Anome violated unblocking guidelines Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Block_reviews by performing the unblock review expeditiously him/herself demonstrating bias.
2. The Anome took one sentence in the whole argument out of context saying my omission of "might" be distruptive to a few was grounds enough for his self block (and unblock review reject) when HAILXSATANX666 was obviously saying "not all usernames people will approve/like"; since mine is 100% religous not everyone may be disturbed by it just as any other differing religious word such as "GOD" "JESUS", "ALLAH", "LOKI", "BLESS" whatever... Anything religious in a username is likely to make someone cringe that doesn't like that religion. HAILXSATANX666 is not sorry for expressing a religious citation of Hail_Satan just as a Christian wouldn't God Bless. Therefore there's a double standard if people aren't getting booted for similar actions based on their faith which is probably not in line with Wikipedia cultural whatever... Mind you over all of this both users above were adding VALID CITED content and not vandalizing articles. What HAILXSATANX666 was trying to do is give a NPOV admitting "yeah, the name isn't something say a Christian would like, but that's just out of ignorance which nobody has to pander for" but in kind of a civil way. However interpreted it as an agreement with the disruptive claim; it wasn't.

What kind of happened is HAILXSATANX666 and Barfbag666 walked into a room with Pentagrams on their shirts, and likely pages that were going up, and needed to repaired noted above everyone wears Cross's. So logically everyone in the room is going to rate a pentagram and symobols of Satanism offensive out of ignorance that Atheistic Satanists deal with everyday and kind of the overall backing of the Satanic movement currently in the U.S.

1. (3 - I couldn't get the numbering to contine, i'm still learning wiki syntax) Finally another admin steps in and gives a rude "get out" edit note. OhNoitsJamie The she also compared the username Barfbag666 to HAILXSATANX666. 666 is "common" leaving Barfbag = HAILXSATANX in this arbitrary "disruption". This is obviously a religious discrimination viewpoint that has no place on wikipedia nor should naive administrators get involved in saying either, and in particular HAILXSATANX666's name is disruptive. Anyone could go around saying "Hail Satan" in a library long as i'm not screaming it being intentionally offensive or disruptive. Saying it to a friend at a table is acceptable; if a few tables they're offended that's just their ignorance. Those people should probably read a few Satanic Wiki's we're making. A satanist might name their own kid "Satan" so that leaves "Hail" the "disruptive" term. It's just foolish by said admin's above to discriminate like this.

What are we Satanists asking?

• Restore both accounts, both writers are eager to contribute to Satanism.
• Provide appropiate coaching to these particular wikipedia administrators and others this behavior and religious censorship is not acceptable.

Or.

• Give guidance on the use of religious words as not allowed or words / letters used.
• the letter "t" should no longer be allowed as if that person walked into a room of Satanists, we'd be "distrupted". No "t"'s.
• Be careful not to use fonts that make other letters look like crosses. \
• Maybe even biblical names are not appropriate either like Joseph or Mary?

For additional info just see the two user talk pages in question. Either or Satanism is being given an unfair shake here and wikipedia articles. WP:GREATWRONGS as OhNoitsJamie doesn't apply here. There's a lot of people that are looking to put Satanism in articles where they belong. Just because other religious organizations got there first doesn't mean this is some kind of impenetrable first come first serve game.

Pardon the poor grammar, it's late and i need to get to bed. These admin's have wasted enough of our time.

I'd add OhNoitsJamie on the notice but she's goofed around with her edit/talk functions and i don't have time to jump through (assuming) her hoops. Someone be so kind to do it as it's wasting a lot of mine messing with her abnormal registering process. Have her fix it and i'll submit it. I'm not sure any other avenue to fight this nonsense.ILOVESATAN666 (talk) 05:36, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I may be high, but not THAT HIGH, so I'd just like to ask the simple question. @ILOVESATAN666 is this for real? or are you just trolling around? FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 05:49, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

IMHO HAILXSATANX666 and ILOVESATAN666 should be allowed as user names as ILOVEJESUS or LOVETHELORD would be allowed. Additionally please see this discussion on religious messages in signatures[264]. I never got an answer to my question. —Мандичка^YO 😜 06:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Honestly, in the context of Satanism those usernames are not inherently inappropriate or unreasonable and should not be blocked simply for being related to Satanism. The notion that "barfbag" is a blockworthy username seems like a stretch. I will also point out something that most people don't understand: Satanism is 100% a real thing, and it is not about actually worshipping Satan but more so about free expression, religious equality and rationalism. Satanism is certainly notable and widely covered by reliable sources. As such, the topic should absolutely be tolerated for expansion on Wikipedia, and self-proclaimed Satanists should not be blocked nor their contributions suppressed as "trolling". If they're actually editing constructively and in good faith, they should be allowed to do so freely and mistakes/disputed edits should be coached with ample warnings given, just like dealing with any other newcomer. These editors do appear to be in good faith and while they haven't been entirely unproblematic, I don't think they've warranted an indefinite block. I will be inclined to unblock unless anyone can present evidence of clear abuse intolerable from any newcomers. Swarm ♠ 06:31, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

References

I agree that both sets of names -- i.e. ILOVESATAN etc. and ILOVEJESUS etc. -- should be treated exactly the same, which is that they should be disallowed. The relevant section of the username policy is "Disruptive usernames":

The following types of usernames are not permitted because they are disruptive or offensive:

• Usernames that are likely to offend other contributors, making harmonious editing difficult or impossible, for example by containing profanities or referencing controversies.
• Usernames that contain or imply personal attacks.
• Usernames that seem intended to provoke emotional reaction ("trolling").
• Usernames that otherwise show a clear intent to disrupt Wikipedia.

Both sets of usernames in question violate three of the four criteria for determining a disruptive username, and on that basis should be disallowed.

However, as long as any articles on Satanism are properly sourced and strictly adhere to WP:NPOV, there is nothing inherently unencyclopedic about them. As long as the editors in question have acceptable usernames, they should be able to edit freely, with the understanding that their edits are most likely going to be highly scrutinized for bias. BMK (talk) 07:33, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

How are they disruptive? Nobody has banned the users CrucifiedChrist, Jesus Saves!, A guy saved by Jesus, Jesus Lover, JesusFreak89, Jesus loves me very much, BengaliHindu, Trust on ALLAH, Allah is great, Aquib American Muslim, AtheistIranian or the any number of usernames based on Bible verses ie Psalm84. Until there is a specific rule saying usernames with religious or anti-religious connotations are disruptive, I don't see why they should be banned because someone somewhere could possibly be offended by that particular religion. I'm pretty sure Wikipedia is not a "safe space." —Мандичка^YO 😜 08:01, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

No, and those accounts, if they have edited, should all also be forced to change usernames, as they are WP:POLEMICal, likely to offend many people, intended to produce an emotional effect, and intended to make a political or religious statement, which is disruptive of editing on Wikipedia. What you believe is not offensive is not the criteria here, it is, as quoted above "likely to offend other contributors." I, for one, am offended by people proclaiming their religious beliefs on a non-sectarian project to create a NPOV encyclopedia, just as I would be -- and am -- offended by Nazi-based usernames, Communist-based usernames, usernames which proclaim the superiority of one country or one type of people over another, or usernames which defame groups of people. None of these are acceptable, and all are totally unnecessary given the near infinite number of possible names available. The disruptiveness of these names is manifest in the reactions to them detailed above. BMK (talk) 08:45, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and please don't bring up WP:Wikipedia is not censored, that applies only to articles and other encyclopedia content, not to usernames. BMK (talk) 08:47, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm going to weigh in here a little, given that I'm involved with this. I admit that I'm a little uncomfortable with the blocks. While sure, as a Christian, admin, and a general Wikipedia editor, I can see where their usernames might make other people uncomfortable - especially given that we've had vandals in the past with similar-ish names. (Names that resemble things you’d see on a fanfiction site also tend to set off “NOTHERE” pings.) However as Wikimandia states, we have plenty of other editors that have indicated their religion in their username and there is apparently no rule against having religiously themed usernames. That's a discussion for another day and honestly, I doubt that there will ever be a policy against religious usernames because that could potentially infringe on the religious rights of the individuals. We could probably add a bit about religiously themed usernames that are clearly oriented at promotion (names of churches), are too broad (like someone trying to name themselves "Christianity"), or contain obvious content that would be seen as threatening or trolling (like "AllFemalesShouldBeCircumcised"), but we already sort of have policies in place for that. I'm aware that what is seen as offensive or trolling is subjective, however at the same time we have to exercise extreme caution. It's entirely possible that someone showing up with a seemingly offensive username could be making a genuine statement about their faith, so we need to weigh the username against their edits. As Swarm put it, the names are not inherently inappropriate. Would I recommend that anyone sign up with a religiously themed username? No, since that tends to make them a bit more of a target because of pre-conceived notions about any given religion, but I wouldn't stop them from signing up with one.

Now a bit of a disclaimer here. I e-mailed the Satanic Temple and told them about the article the day that I moved it to the mainspace, so it’s entirely likely that HAILXSATANX666 is a separate person from. My purpose in e-mailing them was because I wanted to see if they could upload any of the church’s images to WC. They’ve done quite a few things that would be extremely interesting to add to the article, namely the art pieces they’ve done (Baphomet statue, Snaketivity) and their performance art. As someone who studied religion in college, this topic greatly interested me and I was excited at the idea of getting some of these pictures, as they do have encyclopedic value and would be an asset to the article.

I also asked them to point out any incorrect information and holes in the article, as I knew that my content was incomplete. In the e-mail I let them know that while they could make edits about things they’re involved in, it’s generally discouraged because it’s easy to slip in promotional content unintentionally and that it’d be better for them to mostly/solely suggest additions on the article talk pages. I forgot to tell them that they need to identify their COI somewhere in their userpage or on the article talk pages, so if they haven’t done this then that’s actually ‘’my’’ fault that they haven’t done this, as HAILXSATANX666’s edits have heavily suggested that they have listened to my recommendations.

I think that we need to assume some good faith here, at the very least for HAILXSATANX666. I’m undecided on BarfBag666. I think that he’s an extremely green editor that is very passionate about the subject, but also a little confrontative. He did seem to be trying to do what we asked of him and his conduct at the REFUND request with me was civil, but I’m not very happy with how he responded to RLawton. I think that everything just snowballed from there. That’s why I didn’t entirely protest his block, since I did think that he needed a cooling off period since things were getting very heated.

The bottom line here is that we have two editors that are currently blocked for username violations. I don’t think that either is inherently offensive or promotional and both appear to be trying to edit within good faith, although BarfBag666 does need to be warned to approach things in a more cool manner. Getting angry won’t solve anything on here and it makes it harder to assume good faith. I think that unblocking them with some warning over how to respond to others (more for BarfBag666 than HAILXSATANX666) and a request that they seek a mentor wouldn't be a bad idea. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• The TL;DNR of all of that is that there's reason to believe that the two accounts are separate and while inadvisable for anyone to sign up with a religious username, there's no current policy in place against them. Creating one would likely be a fairly large landmine because of the various implications it could hold. That this would possibly become a media debacle if Wikipedia were to ban religiously themed usernames the potential media coverage could be a nightmare. (Not a reason not to do it, but likely one of the reasons it'd be hard to pass.) Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• BMK: Then would you also have a problem with the user categories that exist for every religion ie "Christian Wikipedians" etc? In which case, do you also feel people shouldn't be allowed to show preference for anything? What about userboxes showing national allegiance to Palestine, Israel or Kosovo? How about people who identify as transgender or in favor of same-sex marriage? Because you know all of these things might offend someone and show they are not here to create a NPOV encyclopedia. Maybe we should all have assigned usernames ie User 24601 so nobody can possibly be offended, until they come up with a reason to be offended by that particular number. —Мандичка^YO 😜 09:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not crazy about userboxes in general, but at least they are contained to the user's page. Usernames go wherever the user goes, everywhere on Wikipedia. BMK (talk) 14:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with Satanism (particularly not the folks-it's-actually-really-atheism variety in question here), Satanists, or edits about Satanism, or indeed the creation of a Category:Satanist Wikipedians. This is a username issue. -- The Anome (talk) 09:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Agree with BMK. It's the same as a user name such as ILOVEHILLARY2016 (except that SATAN666 is more obviously trolling). The user name puts a mini-WP:POLEMIC statement on every talk page where they contribute. Johnuniq (talk) 09:06, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Folks, you're being trolled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.76.130.104 (talk) 09:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Agreed. This isn't a content dispute or a free-speech issue, this is trolling, and they're getting exactly the attention they want, as you can see with the tone of pseudo-outrage in their comments. I would not be at all surprised if Barfbag666 and the others were actually all the same person, and the first username, "Barfbag666", should tell you all you need to know. -- The Anome (talk) 09:33, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Then if they are trolling, since It does not appear they have made any trolling edits or vandalism, their intent seems to be to expose the hypocrisy on Wikipedia regarding religious usernames, to which I say well done. Unblock them. —Мандичка^YO 😜 09:39, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• This discussion is the trolling, and you are, alas, being trolled. -- The Anome (talk) 09:44, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• This discussion is not the trolling. It was started after the usernames were wrongfully blocked! —Мандичка^YO 😜 10:11, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• I don't know... HAILXSATANX666 did seem like they were trying to edit within policy and although I think that BarfBag666 could have handled himself far better, he did look like he was trying. Also, I need to state that they only began editing after I e-mailed the Temple itself asking for them to upload images, so them appearing at the same time as BarfBag666 was blocked doesn't automatically mean that it's a case of sockpuppetry. Especially given that they appeared to be following my fairly specific recommendations that I detailed in my e-mail to them. I just think that this all needs to be approached very carefully and that we shouldn't automatically assume that their usernames are an attempt at trolling or that they're the same person. Do they know one another? Maybe, but it's also entirely possible that HAILXSATANX666 is a separate entity that only came to Wikipedia after I wrote an email inviting them to upload photographs and point out issues with the Temple's article on the article's talk page. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:42, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Hence the use of soft blocks, not hard blocks. I have no issue with their edits, just the usernames. -- The Anome (talk) 09:50, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
• I'm really not comfortable with assuming that the usernames are problematic because they tend to incorporate things that are typically used for shock value. While yes, we see a lot of people coming to Wikipedia looking to shock and troll, this doesn't automatically come across like it's one of those situations. Basically, we have a rare situation where we have someone (specifically HAILXSATANX666) who is claiming that their username reflects their religious beliefs and has so far edited within policy. I wouldn't have recommended the direct edit to the saint's page, but that can be debated on the talk page (which it is/was). I just don't feel exactly right with us blocking someone for a username that isn't meant to be offensive and while it has negative connotations elsewhere, isn't necessarily inherently offensive in and of itself. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:12, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
• Perhaps should they rename their accounts into User:Grammar satanist or User:Grammar666, these names are not yet used. Pldx1 (talk) 10:54, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
• I don't know - right now there's no policy against religious usernames and both users identify as Satanists. This puts them in a different area than if they were random users or not because we need to take their religion into consideration. If anyone wants there to be a policy against religious usernames then they need to open up a discussion about it in the appropriate forums. This isn't really the appropriate place for that and I don't offhand think that either name is a violation of policy given the users' stated religions and because neither offhand appears to be here to promote anything. If they did come across as promotional it's likely unintentional. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 12:08, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Barfbag666 is complaining about because I reverted two of his edits. Since that time, I've been trying to explain to him the problems with his edits. He's been very obnoxious in response.

1. The Phelps reversion was because incident cited had no bearing on Phelps or his life and, as I noted to Mr. Bag, belongs in the article about the group conducting the protest rather than in the biographical article about Phelps.
2. The second reversion was because Mr. Bag wanted to insert a non-Christian mass into an article about Christian masses - and because the mass he wanted to insert was from a group representing an extreme minority - thereby disproportionately representing them by comparison. There are other articles where that particular mass would fit well, and I pointed that out as well.
3. Mr. Bag has represented these two reversions as if I were mass reverting numerous edits. It's only been two.
4. In the meantime, Mr. Bag is editing articles directly with a conflict of interest. He is representing his temple and essentially spamming articles that have nothing to do with it. Wikipedia has had problems with religious organizations in the past - and has banned at least one entire organization as a result. Mr. Bag, if not his temple, may well be heading in that direction.
5. Next, Mr. Bag has threatened to recruit other members of his group to edit Wikipedia in order to force Wikipedia to accommodate them, even though, as I pointed out, he's attempting to spam articles. This, again, goes against Wikipedia's culture and making such threats is highly inappropriate. Such efforts by other groups in the past typically end in bad press and mass bannings.
6. One last note, Mr. Bag left a mal-formed notice on my talk page which I initially thought was an attempt at harassment. I temporarily blocked him from editing until I realized that he may have been attempting to notify me of this particular thread. Rklawton (talk) 13:46, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Mr. Bag's usernames, I have supported the first block but leave other admins to decide. As for his second user name, I've copied the following from WP:USERNAME, and I believe it fits Mr. Bag's case precisely:

A user who both adopts a promotional username and also engages in inappropriately promotional behaviors in articles about the company, group, or product, can be blocked. In such cases, administrators should examine the user's edits to decide whether or not to allow them to create a new username. If there is evidence that the user would continue to edit inappropriately under a new username, the blocking administrator should enable the "autoblock" and "prevent account creation" features. Otherwise, the user should be offered the opportunity to create a new account. (Before blocking, disagreements as to whether a particular username is acceptable should be discussed at WP:Requests for comment/Usernames.) Users who adopt such usernames, but who are not editing problematically in related articles, should not be blocked. Instead, they should be gently encouraged to change their username.

Rklawton (talk) 13:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Comment I'm worried less about the username issue and more about a tiresome user trying to use Wikipedia as a soapbox and venue to right great wrongs as if Wikipedia was a state courthouse. In retrospect, I would've blocked Barfbag for general disruptive editing rather than the username. I agree that the usernames are polemic, but they are a secondary concern to me in this case. Suggest WP:BOOMERANG and future block-on-sight so we can all get back to building an encyclopedia. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 14:26, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support - initially I'd hoped that Mr. Bag would make some effort to edit constructively if only pointed in the right direction. However, it's clear that at best he has a chip on his shoulder and at worst we've been trolled. An indef block and block on site mandate would allow us to resume building Wikipedia. Rklawton (talk) 14:30, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - The Satanic Temple is all about highlighting the ways people are inconsistent in their treatment of religion and the various aspects of church and state. In doing so on Wikipedia, there are a couple things going on worth noting. First, you're making their point with the username issue. Nobody should have a problem with names that reference "satan" unless you're also willing to block the hundreds of users with "god" (either religious or blasphemous), "jesus christ", many of the names with "jesus" or "christ", "allah", "yahweh", etc. Just do a search in the user space for "intitle:christ" for example. It's like how they challenged nativity scenes at state capitol buildings by introducing ridiculous monuments to satan -- it's trolling because it takes to an extreme a bias that otherwise gets ignored. Not unlike Anonymous in e.g. Project Chanology, I wouldn't necessarily endorse their actions but to reduce it to "just trolling" misses the point. The problem I think they're going to run into on Wikipedia, however, is that NPOV doesn't work like laws about religion. Articles don't have to reflect all perspectives -- just all significant perspectives as determined by the body of work on a subject. Within the vast majority of discussions of religion, religious practice, and Christianity, satanism in general and the satanic temple in particular are marginal subjects. Doesn't mean there's no place for them on Wikipedia, but POV-pushing just isn't as effective because on Wikipedia all religions are not equal -- it's all determined by sources. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• • As I said above, I've no problem with self-professed Satanists (who of course in this case, if they're aligned with The Satanic Temple, are most likely not actual believers in Satan at all) editing here, or identifying themselves as such. If they want to call themselves User:Satanic topic editor or User:Happy Satanist, that's entirely fine with me. Regarding religious relativism: if a self-professed Christian, or member of another similarly popular mainstream religion, created an account called User:SINNERSXWILLXALLBURNXINXHELL777, they should also be blocked, for the same reason, regardless of whether or not it is their sincerely-held religious belief (which indeed it might well be), exactly because usernames are not intended to be a free-speech platform for making points like this. Or for having a bit of anarcho-Situationist fun, or for the sheer joy of pissing other people off, on or both of which I believe may well also be a factor here-- The Anome (talk) 16:30, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I see User:HAILXSATANX666 has been blocked for running afoul of WP:USERNAME. Is it worth discussing his disruptive editing now, or do we wait for him to create a new account first? At this point, he is welcome to create a new account with an appropriate user name. My preference would be to see if anyone is willing to mentor him. Barring that, then I believe we should just send him packing and be done with it. I see nothing even in his newest edits that shows me he understands and accepts what we've been trying to tell him. Rklawton (talk) 19:06, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

OK, here's another of his accounts: User:ILOVESATAN666‎. This isn't sock puppetry as it's only his account names (so far) that have been blocked. This name shares the same problem as his last name - it's both promotional AND he's using it to inappropriately promote his agenda in our articles. Rklawton (talk) 21:31, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Suvrat Raj(sonu kumar)

This user appears to be the indef blocked user User:SUVRAT RAJ.

Almost all of his edits have been attempts at self-promotion - most recently, creating redirects from namespace to his user page, and also adding categories to it. PamD 09:28, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Someone might want to delete this too: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Suvrat Raj(sonu kumar), because it ain't got a snowball's chance in hell... Thomas.W ^talk 10:21, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
• I've blocked and tagged them, plus I've deleted their various pages. It's a pretty obvious sock. @PamD:, you think that it'd be worth opening an SPI? Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:28, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Saadkhan12345 is vandalizing articles and abusing accounts

Based on his profiles User:Saadkhan12345 is a Pakistani living in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. He was blocked indefinitely as User:UsmanullahPK and subsequently created multiple accounts for edit-war and other disruption. [265] He has no idea about US laws, he thinks a Pakistani must become a U.S. citizen in order to be considered a Pakistani American. He's unnecessarily following me around and reverting my edits under different names and his Riyadh IP. [266], [267], [268], [269] I don't think SPI is needed, the evidence is crystal clear.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 10:56, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Vandalized my User page. Thinks a Pakistani criminal caught in Southasia and now in prison in US is Paksitani-American. For e.g. this guy Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who isn't even in the US (Cuba-Guantanomo Bay] qualifies to be a Pakistani-American according to Krzyhorse22 Here. Saadkhan12345 (talk) 12:02, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

KSM is a separate issue, it is being discussed at Talk:Pakistani Americans. You are following me and reverting my edits, and you're abusing multiple accounts.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 12:11, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @Saadkhan12345: that's not vandalism, that's tagging you as a suspected sockpuppet. @Krzyhorse22: yeah it passes the duck test for me, but if an admin doesn't jump on it soon, I would recommend an SPI -- samtar ^whisper 11:58, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

When the outcome is clear SPI is unnecessary, plus those SPI admins are too busy. This guy has no respect for Wiki or other editors.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 12:11, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Could've done that on the talk page. Not on my Userpage. Saadkhan12345 (talk) 12:09, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Krzyhorse22 Please refrain from making personal attacks. Saadkhan12345 (talk) 12:19, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked as a clear DUCK. GiantSnowman 12:47, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

GiantSnowman Excuse me, but that is how you become a Pakistani American, unless you are born in the U.S. of Pakistani descent and have dual citizenship, or identify as Pakistani American through your parents. Many people live in the United States but without citizenship do not qualify as "Americans." KSM is NOT an American. What evidence is there that Saadkhan12345 is this other user? Simply because he pointed out the obvious? There are 1.5 million Pakistanis in KSA. —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Like I said, I agree with Samtar that DUCK is met here. Similar personal backgrounds, similar editing area and pattern, similar name, similar disruption. GiantSnowman 13:10, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

How are their names similar? I think Khan is the one of the most common family names in the world after Li. Half the people I know from Pakistan/Muslim India are named Khan: [270] Additionally 1) this account has been around more than a year without any blocks 2) according to complaints in the original SPI, this user has a noticeably poor command of English. Looking at Saadkhan's edits, his English is excellent. See comment above, and edit summaries like, "They are not Americans citizens. A convicted felon cannot be given U.S nationality." So what evidence is there that this is the same user? OP's edits are completely wrong and the only disruptive thing I see here. —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:17, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: This report has nothing to do with KSM or Pakistani Americans, it's to do with a user abusing multiple accounts. You may have an opinion on Pakistani Americans, but that discussion is not for here, please see Talk:Pakistani Americans. As for evidence, I believe all the behavioral evidence in the original report above would, if brought to SPI, be closed with the same outcome - a block. Cheers -- samtar ^whisper 13:21, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Once again I ask, what is the evidence? None of the diffs above prove anything except OP is putting in wrong information. You have a sock with notoriously terrible English. You have another user with perfect English. Do you not see the issue here? This user is not being disruptive so there is no urgent need for a block. Open an SPI. —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:34, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm disengaging from this now, but I will say that the behavioral evidence suggests a possibility of the account being a sock, enough for an administrator to make a block. I trust the judgement of GiantSnowman, as does a lot of other editors -- samtar ^whisper 13:41, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

You've presented no evidence. I've presented evidence it is unlikely they are the same user. That's nice you trust GiantSnowman, but that is why we have SPI, so admins don't block people based on their hunches. —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:44, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia, his present location; his Pakistani background; his general behavior; his editing of the article Lower Dir District in Pakistan; and the languages he claimed to speak, among other things, made it 100% match.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 13:46, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

There are more than 1.5 million Pakistanis in Saudi Arabia. It's not like he's a Pakistani in Belize. Of course a Pakistani would edit Lower Dir District. Of course a Pashtun would have the last name Khan - it's a nearly universal surname for the Pashtun. I don't see what languages he claims to speak. On the other hand, I have a serious problem with this edit you made vandalizing his page three days ago and saying "socking is unIslamic"[271] You don't get to label people socks, especially before it's ever been brought to ANI/SPI. —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:53, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Why would you have a problem with me telling Muslim editors that socking is un-Islamic? It's based on Islam's teachings. Any disruptive act is un-Islamic but doing this in Wikipedia where the whole world relies on is a more serious misconduct than doing this in social sites like Facebook for example. I know about the whole world, no need to remind of petty stuff like how many Pakistanis live in what country. I didn't vandalize his page, it was just to warn him or wake him up. Any editor can put suspected sock tag on someone, if there is reasonable or probative evidence.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 14:01, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I have a problem with you vandalizing someone's page and throwing in a condescending comment about how, even though you've presented no compelling evidence that this is a sock, that "socking is wrong" according to their religion. It's completely repulsive. Yes you did vandalize his page - you replaced his entire userpage with a template saying he's a sock! Because he's reverting you when you're putting in absurd information in articles! It's not your place to "wake him up" by screwing with his page. If you truly believed he's a sock then report him. —Мандичка^YO 😜 14:16, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

You're defending a disruptive sock maker. There are countless IDs with Saadkhanxxx and they either made few edits or none. I don't care what is repulsive to you, this is an international project so please get used to people from everywhere and every religion. As you can see nobody other than the disruptive sock maker and you are having a problem with me. I did not remove anything from his or anyone's page, please stop accusing me.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 16:22, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Meat puppetry

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adarsh Liberal (2nd nomination).

This article was nominated for AFD by Katyaan. After Katyaan's delete vote was stroked off by Dharmadhyaksha another editor Expertseo, who didn't edit for full one year came out of nowwhere and voted delete. His previous edit was on 17 December 2014 on Katyaan's talk page.

Expertsio had a total of 77 edits in wikipedia when he voted "delete". With 77 edits, he connects with Katyaan in 12 articles with variety subjects as BatchMaster Software, Raebareli, Devi Ahilya Vishwavidyalaya, Jitu Patwari, Vyapam scam. --The Avengers 11:41, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Just to note, the edit from Expertseo to Katyaan's page is a barnstar being awarded. Why do they almost always award each other barnstars.. Passes the duck test for me, any reason why you think this isn't just normal socking? I'd be inclined to SPI okay, maybe not - good couple of years between them -- samtar ^whisper 11:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Close this, I have started SPI.--Human3015^TALK  14:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Sandboxes found in mainspace!

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This shows how active Wikipedia's recent changes patrollers are.

• Namkhim/sandbox
• Sphaerotheca fuliginea/sandbox
• Hlebea1/sandbox
• Missriles/sandbox

103.6.159.89 (talk) 12:46, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

And some in Wikipedia space!

• Wikipedia:Gopalakannan Gk/sandbox
• Wikipedia:User:Jee-Hyub Kim/sandbox
• Wikipedia:Bkkbagh/sandbox

103.6.159.89 (talk) 13:22, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Things always slip through I'm afraid... marking them CSD, but I'm sure an admin will come along and delete them soon -- samtar ^whisper 13:26, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I've marked Sphaerotheca fuliginea/sandbox as a draft as it seems it was actively and constructively edited in the last couple of months -- samtar ^whisper 13:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Tidied up the first lot. Most of them just needed moving. --Errant ^(chat!) 13:55, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alexiulian25

Please can somebody take a look at Alexiulian25 (talk · contribs)'s recent edits/behavior - the background can be found here (talk page of the effected WikiProject, where I have tried to resolve the matter), but this is basically a low-level content dispute. I have been removing content citing WP:OR, Alexiulian25 has been reverting. I didn't want to come to ANI, but his edits are increasingly concerning, he is exhibiting severe BATTLEGROUND and OWNERSHIP issues, and he has now resorted to personal attacks e.g. "retard" which was followed by starting a section on my talk page called "Giantsnowman is a idot" [sic]. GiantSnowman 14:47, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I'm not riding to the defense of the user here, Alexiulian25 has been rude and uncivil - however, they've calmed down a little and are starting to listen and make changes to their behavior. I'm willing to continue to discuss this with them on my talk page, and have asked them to apologise to you Giantsnowman. This user has, in the past, been a very constructive member of Wikipedia, however I understand if they continue that a block would be the result -- samtar ^whisper 14:52, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry Snowman. I was really angry ! You did delete a lot on Wikipedia without giving me a warning to add references ! You should inform people before you delete --Alexiulian25 (talk) 15:00, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:BOLD does not require that - and you have been told by others about your editing problems. However I appreciate your apology. GiantSnowman 20:12, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Almost two dozen articles, apparently robocreated

User Carolineneil (talk · contribs) created nearly two dozen articles in the span of as many minutes this past weekend. One of them, Different Instruments for Different Equations, has recently been nominated for deletion. I agreed with that assessment, it was a case of textbook writing and the creation of a chapter name, and treating that self-chosen name as if it were a distinct "topic". I then checked regarding the article's creation, and found nearly two articles, all pretty much in the same style were mass created by the same editor. At most one of them, Roy model, seems to be an actual topic, and thus salvageable. (As written though, perhaps WP:NUKE would be appropriate.) There are also two more created after the initial spree, and again, perhaps one of them, Maximum score estimator is an actual topic, but again, nuking might be best.

WP:DP does not seem to have a mass deletion option. It seems pointless to have the same discussion once per article. Recommendations?

Also, someone with biochemical expertise might want to peruse the several successful AFC's on the Talk page. The subjects do not look like "topics" to me, but they are far enough from my expertise that I refrain from pushing it. Choor monster (talk) 15:20, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Not a biochemist here either. Most of these seem to me to be indistinguishable from sections of a multi-chapter review paper - highly specific, and very textbook-style. The editor should try to a) fit that material into existing articles (there's an easy match for the role of 'parent article' for each of those), and b) turn the text into an encyclopedia article, not a didactic monograph.-- Elmidae 18:18, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

In fact, one of his successful AFCs, Glucose oxidation reaction was speedily deleted yesterday as content duplication, User:DGG/CSD log#December 2015, while another Biosynthetic mechanism was turned into a redirect. As an outsider to biochemistry, I'll venture that it would seem "Glucose oxidation reaction" ought to be a redirect to Glycolysis, the existing content duplication, which I'll mention the editor in question has now added material to. And again, speaking as an outsider, I have the impression that "biosynthetic mechanism" is not a topic as such, and so that entry should have been speedy deleted. Choor monster (talk) 18:50, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Admin assistance needed at Knanaya

For some time, Knanaya has been repeatedly affected by at least two editors trying to enforce their views, both using myriad sockpuppets and IPs. Periodically, an "anti-Knanaya" editor has repeatedly added disparaging material about the group, misusing sources to do so (see discussions here, here, and here). Alternately, a "pro-Knanaya" editor (or connected group of editors) edit-wars over the article to excise material they disapprove, even (or especially) well cited material by academics who studied the community (see discussions here, here, and here). They've edited under the names Stansley, Psthomas, and various IPs:[272][273][274]. In August, the article had to be semi-protected through November,[275] and now that it has expired the edit warring has resumed.
I'm also submitting a WP:RFPP, but it's a shame to have to semi-protect the page for so long considering that the disruption seems to come primarily from two people or groups. Perhaps someone could look into the feasibility of a range-block for this problem?--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Request to cease drive-by POV tagging

@Jbottero: is apparently going to keep adding {{POV}} to the article Kshama Sawant [276][277][278][279] without any indication as to what the POV problem is. How are we supposed to correct the problem if nobody will tell us what it is? As the template doc explains: "Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag should discuss concerns on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. In the absence of such a discussion, or where it remains unclear what the NPOV violation is, the tag may be removed by any editor." Jbottero has been warned four times about this, with reference to the POV tag instructions. This could easily be resolved by Jbottero simply going to Talk:Kshama Sawant and telling us what the problem is. If they are not willing to do that, the editor should be banned from Kshama Sawant. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

If he's been warned for this four times, and is continuing to do this afterwards, I'd say that a block per disruptive editing is completely justified here. ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

IP vandal

While doing new user greet earlier, I came across Grizzly bear and saw that a new user had vandalized it, but ClueBot NG had reverted the issue. The problem is that an IP vandalized it again twice immediately after that. I removed their edits, and when I went to their talk page to warn them, I saw that they have a list of warnings going back to 2010. Is it time for somebody to block them? Thanks, White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 21:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)White Arabian Filly - This belong at Administrator intervention against vandalism. File a report there. ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:31, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

@White Arabian Filly: It's complicated with IPs. However, if there is a lot of recent vandalism, then a report to WP:AIV is in order for a short-term block. —C.Fred (talk) 21:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

In this specific case, neither IP had been used since 2012. You could report to AIV, but it'll get turned down for insufficient recent vandalism. —C.Fred (talk) 21:33, 3 December 2015 (UTC)